My question is whether it actually has to be vanilla, or whether you can use Blood Angels? It says Tactical Squads, not Space Marine Tactical Squads, after all. Same for Assault Squads. I can't see the small print everywhere though.
This is absurdly, off-the-wall bonkers good. Absolutely stunning power, honestly something I'd put well beyond Adamantine Lance, Decurions and the new Eldar.
Imagine taking 2 of these in a 1750pt game. 4 Assault, 4 Devastators. Everyone arrives Turn 1, the Devs Combat Squad. Bolter the infantry, Melta the tanks. Assaults charge and get stuck in.
It's removing all of the possible risks of deployment, movement and Deep Strike. It then supercharges your offensive output, throws some good old Morale hits for good measure, and your opponent has absolutely no possible response or counterplay beyond 'bubblewrap everything'.
I'm pretty sure if someone brought that into our escalation league, I would play him once, then tell him I was never going to play his douche list again, or probably him ever again.
All the benefits of drop pod assault, with none of the minuses BUT WAIT, THERES MOAR!!! benefits upon your already awesome benefits. Get relentless, 3D6 ldr tests, reroll wounds, double awesome jet packs, assault from reserve!!!
Its getting to the point our FLGS might just go CAD only + Ally detachments.
Honestly, I think all models should be able to assault from deep strike, but yes, the formation is a little overly strong and probably primarily because it is a Webstore exclusive, not that that means you'll have to buy it to see the rules
jSewell wrote: Honestly, I think all models should be able to assault from deep strike, but yes, the formation is a little overly strong and probably primarily because it is a Webstore exclusive, not that that means you'll have to buy it to see the rules
I agree that units deep striking should be able to assault when then enter. I never understood why they would just stand around if they deep struck next to the enemy to shoot them and then wait around to get charged? This formation is pretty OP and as quoted from above, It does seem like the good OLE SM are getting much better detachments and formations than Necrons or Eldar so far. We will see....
I'm calling it right now; this is the most powerful formation in the game. These guys will erase Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and anything else. This is just bananas. Also, it is super cool. They've just made Assault Squads worthwhile again, and gave me a reason to not use my Dev Squads as backfield IG wannabes.
My initial reaction was "wow this is the first good space marine formation", then a few seconds later "wow this is actually probably the best formation in the game".
I had no real reason to run anything other than White Scars CAD, now I have to think of how to include this.
Homeskillet wrote: I'm calling it right now; this is the most powerful formation in the game. These guys will erase Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and anything else. This is just bananas. Also, it is super cool. They've just made Assault Squads worthwhile again, and gave me a reason to not use my Dev Squads as backfield IG wannabes.
just keep the wraithknight in reserve and deep strike in. Yes, the formation is crazy good, but we'll have to see if it requires 10 strong units which will chew up quite a few points.
I am not a huge fan of alpha strike units and GW should realize it's detrimental to their business model (if they even have one). People buy miniatures, some even paint them, they then put them on the table and end up removing them before the game has really started. That is a surefire way to deter a new player from continuing the hobby.
That is mental! What on earth are they thinking?
-Arrives T1 or T2 ... YOU CHOOSE!
-Relentless on Devs (MASSIVE - how do you bubble wrap against grav cannons or multimeltas with their range?)
-GtG rolls are incredibly strong when it gives...
-Rerolls to hit and wound for the assault squad that can assault when they arrive and get to use their JPs to assault so get HoW too.
-Can be combined with CTs for silly powerlevels.
And they make BA pay a 30 tac marine and 3 stormraven tax to be able to make our assault squads able to assault from DS (and not on T1). Do they realise what they are doing to the game?
Homeskillet wrote: I'm calling it right now; this is the most powerful formation in the game. These guys will erase Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and anything else. This is just bananas. Also, it is super cool. They've just made Assault Squads worthwhile again, and gave me a reason to not use my Dev Squads as backfield IG wannabes.
just keep the wraithknight in reserve and deep strike in. Yes, the formation is crazy good, but we'll have to see if it requires 10 strong units which will chew up quite a few points.
I am not a huge fan of alpha strike units and GW should realize it's detrimental to their business model (if they even have one). People buy miniatures, some even paint them, they then put them on the table and end up removing them before the game has really started. That is a surefire way to deter a new player from continuing the hobby.
Reserve your Wraithknight while this formation kills everything else on the board? I don't think the SM player will mind at all.
The article completely overstates how powerful this formation is. 10 extra useless devs are not tax?
This formation is definitely good. However getting a close enough DS with the assault marines to charge will be extremely hard to do with them not having any reduction of scatter. It helps you can combat squad the units of 10 but it is still landing 4 units of 5 somewhere assault marines with jump packs can be useful. The devs with heavy weapons is why you take this and they are a fraction of the points. Is this really better than just taking another unit of DPdevs for just a little more than the cost of the extra 10 bolter devs this formation forces you to purchase? If you really think about the cost you could have had ObjSec TAC marines in pods with special weapons instead of the assault marines and almost 3 units of drop pod devs instead of 2 units and 10 extra bullet catchers. The second option is much more consistent in it's ability to win games.
Still I do like something that make jump pack assault marines even moderately useful.
I predict CSM will end up with some fun rule like Crush the Heretics! that allows all enemy models free overwatch shots at the end of every player turn if any CSM model is in range of their shooting.
1) That they took away Zagstruck's Deep Strike assault and then give Space Marines, and
2) the 3D6 leadership tests will break most units, and many of those (but not most) will evaporate when they fail their regroup roll when assaulted.
If someone wanted to play this for fun, I would play against them.
I'm not seeing where it requires taking 10mans. You probably want to, but let's assume not:
UM SMs:
Devs:
MMx4, Combi-Melta
You're paying 2ppm more than Fire Dragons for a. *hell* of a lot of awesome. And 35pts for the best deployment option ever, only better.
For ASM, there will almost alaways be something for them to charge. Even otherwise-naked, a 5-man should do some damage to most rear-AV10 vehicles. Throw in a meltabomb or powermaul if you want to.
It's like Scatterbikes stupidity.
Reserving to avoid the threat? There isn't much, if anything, that isn't threatened by them. Bubble wrapping? Meltadroppong with a 24" range makes that much harder. Null deployment? He brings them in T2 if he wants.
Its like Marketing made a list of things that the balance team worked hard to prevent/remove, and is doling them out like candy to sell models. This is worse than Libby conclaves manifesting on a 2+!
And 3d6LD? Omgwtfbbq? That is why you want 10mans. Combat squad. With UM Dev tactics up *OR* getting the alpha within 12" free, a 5man SM squad with just boltguns easily pays for itself. But they get *both*. *And* even the best of the best will be pinned half the time.
Frozocrone wrote: Could just this formation in turn 2 after you get rid of interceptors and have a drop pod with a locater beacon come down where you want them.
Yeah does the beacon have to be down at the start of the turn? Or can the formation pods have Homers to bring in the assault squads? It seems like you could fire the spare bolter guys at two other squads to force maximum checks before doing a huge disordered assault with the assault squads. Probably will not work for any template devs though there is too much risk of hitting your own dudes
Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Used to be, banning formations would have been practical, but not entirely necessary. Before GW made it necessary, they made sure to make it impractical, via armies incapable of forming a CAD.
Bharring wrote: Used to be, banning formations would have been practical, but not entirely necessary. Before GW made it necessary, they made sure to make it impractical, via armies incapable of forming a CAD.
Yeah, as a Haemonculus Covens player, I'd like to stay away from "ban all formations" and "only allow CAD+AD" lines of thought. I'm sure Harlequins players can get down on that too.
Banning formations makes Harlequins almost unplayable as they don't have a HQ, so you'd probably have to allow faction specific detachments if you did do that, although I still would say keep formations, but ban those that are detrimental to balance.
@Silverthorne, yeah the Locater Beacon has to be already on the field. Was hoping Scouts could take it but they take teleport homers instead.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: 2) the 3D6 leadership tests will break most units, and many of those (but not most) will evaporate when they fail their regroup roll when assaulted.
Nah, check the rules again. They take an LD test on 3d6, but failure doesn't result in them breaking, "just" going to ground (and hence giving the assault marines a whole set of bonuses against them). Success means that you "only" lose the ability to fire overwatch.
The removal of overwatch is icing and actually hides the real benefit. The units that you are reasonably likely (3D6 = 10.5) to GtG
5 Boltgun devastator marines (tbf, you can opt to throw a single frag grenade, same effect) should be able to remove an infantry squad/Model (or model sub-group) for a turn. In addition, you have 4 heavies (+a combi?!) dev squad + a combat-squad Assault squad.
I know it is ridiculous, potentially really ridiculous, but it is giving me an option to field my ASM again. Yeah!
Question: With the timing of GtG in your own shooting phase, when would they return to normal?
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
The removal of overwatch is icing and actually hides the real benefit. The units that you are reasonably likely (3D6 = 10.5) to GtG
5 Boltgun devastator marines (tbf, you can opt to throw a single frag grenade, same effect) should be able to remove an infantry squad/Model (or model sub-group) for a turn. In addition, you have 4 heavies (+a combi?!) dev squad + a combat-squad Assault squad.
I know it is ridiculous, potentially really ridiculous, but it is giving me an option to field my ASM again. Yeah!
Question: With the timing of GtG in your own shooting phase, when would they return to normal?
Same as it normally would be, after their turn so they still fire Snap Shots.
This Formation actually feels like Ultramarines to me finally. I was getting a real lack of 'Battle Company Badassery' in the book and the free transports just weren't enough to tickle my pickle. Now I have plans to run a Demi-Company with Bikes and Centurions, then this Formation to fill out the rest of the models. Not exactly Kosher, using some Tactical bodies in the other roles, but it actually feels like 3rd Company can be a thing without having to resort to tanks and 1st Company. I'm excited for this one.
Assuming a single formation against a fearless army, 4 enemy units lose overwatch every turn and against a non-fearless army 4 enemy units are pinned per turn....that alone sounds perfectly balanced right?
This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.
Absolutely overpowered ridonkulously good garbage with zero cost, zero tax. They even killed a sacred cow here, letting assault marines assault while deep striking. Holy crap.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!
I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!
This is absurdly, off-the-wall bonkers good. Absolutely stunning power, honestly something I'd put well beyond Adamantine Lance, Decurions and the new Eldar.
Imagine taking 2 of these in a 1750pt game. 4 Assault, 4 Devastators. Everyone arrives Turn 1, the Devs Combat Squad. Bolter the infantry, Melta the tanks. Assaults charge and get stuck in.
It's removing all of the possible risks of deployment, movement and Deep Strike. It then supercharges your offensive output, throws some good old Morale hits for good measure, and your opponent has absolutely no possible response or counterplay beyond 'bubblewrap everything'.
Or run a pod list himself and make you go first (Actually, he wouldn't even need this formation, just anything that doesn't put too much on the table the turn you drop, but would have a chance to wipe you out if you didn't drop turn 1.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: But yeah the total lack of balance is disappointing.
Vaktathi wrote: This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.
It's the very definition of "pay2win".
What bothers me is the balance issue.
We all know that gw has never been the best at balancing their games. I have always believed that it was down to honest negligence and a belief in a particular way that the game should be played. We've all read articles where the designers talk about playing loose with the rules, army lists, playing very casually with an aim simply to have fun and, of course "forge a narrative" (all great in my opinion).
However, I think this, for the reasons you and others mention, is the first time that I've seen them so obviously and deliberately over power an army (or formation, or whatever), simply to try get some quick sales on one of their bundles.
It's not unusual for a new model to be released alongside a new codex and get some nice, attractive rules to go with it... yes, to encourage sales. Maybe they even done something a bit similar to this with the BA triple stormraven formation. This however, seems completely over the top and, like I say extremely obvious and deliberate.
I'm pretty disappointed with it. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
Makumba wrote: You do know that the formation owner can choose for it to drop turn 2, if he wants ?
Then he has to have enough on the table Turn 1 to avoid being tabled before that happens. If he goes crazy with a pair of these, he won't have much else.
But the more I think about it, the more it seems like things that mess with deep strike might be the answer here or an-interceptor happy Tau army.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!
I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!
I reject any solution that incentivises the actual paying of money to GW to purchase this nonsense.
You don't teach a dog not to gak on the carpet by giving it treats every time it does
Yeah without trying you can make a list that obsecs everything and eliminates WK and support units alike with ease.
Ultramarines Skyspear BS formation.
Assault Marines with jump packs, 2 flamers, eviscerator, and power maul.
140pts + melta bomb
Assault Marines with jump packs, 2 flamers, eviscerator, and power maul.
140pts + melta bomb
(280pts) total.
Devastators with 4 grav guns and drop pod
245pts
Devastators with 4 grav guns and drop pod
245pts
(490) total
Ravenguard CAD Hq Techmarine -90pts
Troops
4x scout squads with shot guns. Assault cannon land speeder-440pts
2x 10 scout squads with bolt pistol and ccw+ teleport homer and melta bomb 250pts
Inquisitorial Detachment
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor- Servo Skull
Skyhammer Annihilation Force 1
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Combi-Grav, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Skyhammer Annihilation Force 2
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
1850/1850pts
The Inquisitor is there to provide a warm body on Turn 1 in the event that you run into an enemy Drop Pod army; the only thing that is immediately obvious as a threat.
- 66 Marines on the field seems like a good bodycount
- 16 of those are packing Relentless, Salvo5 Gravs that can reroll wounds
- 36 of them are packing A3, Hammer of Wrath and rerolls out the bum
- Assault Marines are built to shred light infantry, with enough anti-tank to threaten with Melta, Eviscerators and Kraks.
- Devastators are built to shred anything with an armour save, monsters and harder vehicles.
- Obviously Combat Squad the Devastators to get as many 3D6 pinning checks as possible.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.
1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.
alanmckenzie wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: This "formation" is very disturbing. it's a zero-cost enhancement to allow a bunch of units to come in where they want, when they want, and engage an enemy on their terms and at full (or better0 effectiveness, with an extremely high degree of safety, and basically nothing an opponent can do about it. It's simply an absurd number of free buffs requiring zero ability or thought to use to incredible effect, legally obtainable only by purchasing an expensive web bundle of new kits.
It's the very definition of "pay2win".
What bothers me is the balance issue.
We all know that gw has never been the best at balancing their games. I have always believed that it was down to honest negligence and a belief in a particular way that the game should be played. We've all read articles where the designers talk about playing loose with the rules, army lists, playing very casually with an aim simply to have fun and, of course "forge a narrative" (all great in my opinion).
However, I think this, for the reasons you and others mention, is the first time that I've seen them so obviously and deliberately over power an army (or formation, or whatever), simply to try get some quick sales on one of their bundles.
It's not unusual for a new model to be released alongside a new codex and get some nice, attractive rules to go with it... yes, to encourage sales. Maybe they even done something a bit similar to this with the BA triple stormraven formation. This however, seems completely over the top and, like I say extremely obvious and deliberate.
I'm pretty disappointed with it. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
I get this feeling as well. It's probably the most blatant cash grab formation I've ever seen.
My real issue, beyond the cash grabbing, is that it's a complete reversal of one of their design philosophies from 6th and 7th edition. Mainly, they don't think it's fun when you get removed wholesale from the board without being able to counter. This is why assault from stationary transports, assault from outflank and reserve and assault from deepstrike have all been systematically removed over the last 3ish years. Now we've got got it all back again....but worse than it ever was.
I mean, they can't even follow their own design guidelines, how are they expecting to make a coherent game out of it?
Inquisitorial Detachment
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor- Servo Skull
Skyhammer Annihilation Force 1
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Assault Squad- 10, Veteran Sergeant with Eviscerator, Jump Packs
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Combi-Grav, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 10, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Skyhammer Annihilation Force 2
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Assault Squad- 8, Jump Packs, Meltabombs
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
Devastator Squad- 5, 4 Amped Grav-Cannons, Drop Pod
1850/1850pts
The Inquisitor is there to provide a warm body on Turn 1 in the event that you run into an enemy Drop Pod army; the only thing that is immediately obvious as a threat.
- 66 Marines on the field seems like a good bodycount
- 16 of those are packing Relentless, Salvo5 Gravs that can reroll wounds
- 36 of them are packing A3, Hammer of Wrath and rerolls out the bum
- Assault Marines are built to shred light infantry, with enough anti-tank to threaten with Melta, Eviscerators and Kraks.
- Devastators are built to shred anything with an armour save, monsters and harder vehicles.
- Obviously Combat Squad the Devastators to get as many 3D6 pinning checks as possible.
Any takers or obvious room for improvement?
What chapter tactic you thinking of using? RG is obviously pointless since the asm get double jump for free with the formation. I'm thinking ultras will probably be best. Drop a tactical doctrine to have everyone rerolling 1's in both shooting and assault, and then next turn either the assault or dev doctrine based on which needs to do more work. (And how many of each survived the counter attack.)
To take this in another direction, what's everyone thinking about abusing the assault squads as a vehicle to bring in jump-pack characters?
Off the top of my head, using this with a flesh tearer's strike force, which has a lord of war slot, you could take a sanguinary priest with the angel's wing in one unit and then Dante in the other, to both mitigate scatter as an issue and have Dante putting his axe through faces on turn 1.
Or just take it with a librarius conclave, scatter the librarians throughout the formation. Two with jump packs to come in with the assault squads, and then maybe take a dev squad with less than 10 models to pack another librarian into one of the pods. Roll for whatever powers seem appropriate, but biomancy seems like a fun one. Especially if you get Enfeeble or Endurance. Or you could be boring and take your pod librarian as Tigurius, then go for his standard picks of either invisibility or perfect timing.
Maybe just take a pair of beatstick chapter masters with jump packs. Always fun. Especially if you're playing iron hands and coupling it with the sanguinary priest idea above.
Plenty of fun combinations to think of for this. Gonna be going over this for a while trying to wring out the absolute most rage-inducing combinations.
Pretty sure you won't be able to attach characters and take advantage of the formation special rules unless they specifically mention that they apply to ICs that join the formation units.
1. As a BAs player that had to drop one thousand points to get anything close to this, im pissed off.
2. This a bit too much. Formations could have been used for good. To fix craptastic units. Now GW is making formations something to be dreaded.
3. Id gladly use this against necron decurions & any eldar. In the most "competitive" combination of marines & equipment too. Id only recommend using this against older codex atmys that you've really strugglef against.
4. This is such a sad, blatant cash grab. I can think of similar releases like riptides, Iknights & wraithknights. This is even worse. Whatever disdain i had for counterfeiters & downloaders has vanished.
5.Whats the difference between an official USR and the special rules that come with formations? Im asking because Id like to put Dante & a SangPriest in with the assault squad. I got an ax to grind with a certain formation loving Necron player. You like formations buddy? Dont think the decurions too much? Cool. Lets play the new FormationHammer 40k.
The reaction to this formation reminds me a lot of the Angels Fury Spearhead Force where people freaked out that it was unbeatable...
Anyways, for those proposing taking 2 of these formations for an alpha strike army you may want to read and perhaps comment on my recent thread where I tried talking about the strategies for and against extreme alpha strike armies, which 2 of these formations would pretty much be.
Alpha Strike and Planning for it. A Tactical Discussion.
Anyways, some of the things people seem to be somewhat confused about and/or perhaps haven't thought of that I think are important;
1) The Suppressing Fusillade ability is a 3d6morale test. That means any unit that is fearless auto passes. Actually there are a whole suite of abilities that allow you to auto pass morale checks. Also GtG already didn't allow for you to fire overwatch and for half the dev unit (ie the ones with grav cannons) you are going to want to GtG if you can. Additionally, to make use of the no overwatch ability you will actually need to make your charge roll which is not something you should assume you can do when competent opponents are likely to bubble wrap important stuff and you either have to DS then assault or the opponent gets to shoot at your fragile dev squads.
2) Any deployment that isn't incompetent will leave the assault marines very unlikely to make charges after a DS. If making charge after DS was so easy then BA would never have lost a game all through 5ed. People keep talking about taking a locator beacon to let the DSing assault marines land without scatter but why would your opponent let you move a beacon into range turn 1 and not kill it? All the stuff you can get a beacon on and get where you need it turn 1 is either too expensive to let you take the formation below 1850 pts or too fragile to survive your opponent's shooting and assault phase (yeah you are getting within ~18" so assault phase).
3) 60 SM bodies might sound like something special but not after you consider that none of them have ObjSec and the vast majority of the damage comes from just 10-20 of those SM bodies that will likely have limited range. This list could be considered as an extreme alpha strike army but it is actually the lightest weight of the extreme alpha strike armies I have seen since recently.
4) UM dev doctrines make an excellent synergy for the devs coming in. The damage you deal with the devs this way could make this formation shine.
5) The grav dev version of this formation is extremely susceptible to a well done null deployment, even with the ability to come in turn 2. The grav devs are just too fragile for you to not get the alpha strike with them. The fact that you have to come in on turn 1 or 2 and no latter is usually a positive but can be made into a negative.
6) Armies with extreme turn 1 durability will make this list experience a hellish time. If you drop down and shoot at a bunch of 2+ cover save or 3++/Res 4++ units without range to assault or even wanting to assault them you are going to be in a very bad way. If you use this formation you should definitely bring a tough turn 1 presence so you have the option to bring them in turn 2.
I reject any solution that incentivises the actual paying of money to GW to purchase this nonsense.
You don't teach a dog not to gak on the carpet by giving it treats every time it does
Sorry if you believed my statement was that "players should buy this formation because it's amazing"?
I was saying that if TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS want a solution for big formations like this that get whined about and add to their workload, requiring the physical copy to be present is an easy out for them.
The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.
1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.
Sure you can fake up a copy of the rules, but can you fake up the envelope they came with?
The debate about the having the phyiscal rules is already nauseating. Nobody outside of Tournament organizers should care. Once people start buying into that then it will only get worse.
The doesn't "fix" the problem....as the problem is that this exists at all, and it doesn't make it not exist. All that would do is create potentially different issues.
1. It would have people counter-fit the rules. I've got the models, and the formation is OP....if I needed to produce the rules to be able to use them I could fake up a copy if need be. Would be almost impossible to call someone out on counter fitting the page if they do a good job.
2. It would make the formation pay-to-win, and would penalize people who've had the models long term. These are both not great alternatives.
Sure you can fake up a copy of the rules, but can you fake up the envelope they came with?
I see your point...I really do, but if I had to fake that up too, I'm certain I could. That said, I don't see why I'd have to, I don't make people show me the plastic sleeve their codex came in, or the box their models came in to prove they are legit and I wager there's more an a few recast models out there.
It's beside the point really. This is now a thing we have to deal with, and the option always exists to just say "screw off, I'm not playing that" regardless of what the have and how legit it looks. You don't need this leverage to not play someone.
I get the idea that this is not part of the official codex, but something that comes with a formation bundle that gets purchased?
Simple thing for TO's to do is to just say if it isn't in a codex for the army you're bringing, then you can't use it. At least that's what I'd do if I was a TO.
On the other hand, this is pretty close to the marine fluff.
niv-mizzet wrote: Another good formation to point to for my idea of banning all formations.
They're too hard for TO's to keep track of. They're even hard for players to keep track of. They provide extra rules, abilities, wargear, or models at no cost. There's horrible balance across formations. Some give you every rule ever, some let your terminators run and shoot the turn they deep strike. (ಠ_ಠ)
The codices might have varying power levels, but that's nothing compared to the fluctuation between formations.
Simple solution for TO's?
If someone wants to field one of these "unique bundled formations", they have to be able to produce the physical copy of the rules for it. The formations come with a physical copy of the rules in a black envelope labeled "CLASSIFIED".
Is that an ideal solution? No. But it keeps the number of people fielding these kinds of formations to a minimum.
Yay! That's the pay-to-win spirit!
I don't like it--but if it cuts down on the complaining we see, I'm for it!
A restriction like this would increase the complaining as it locks the formation safely behind the pay wall. A better way to have reduced its appearance and reduced the complaining would have been for the TO to not allow webstore exclusive formations.
Homeskillet wrote: I'm calling it right now; this is the most powerful formation in the game. These guys will erase Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and anything else. This is just bananas. Also, it is super cool. They've just made Assault Squads worthwhile again, and gave me a reason to not use my Dev Squads as backfield IG wannabes.
the era of wraithknights is over before it really began. Best formation in the game!
of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DEWWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.
bullyboy wrote: of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DEWWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.
totally agree, problem is its easy to get the votes to downvote the D nerf, 95% of players dont play eldar and if it dosnt hurt their faction, why not vote it down. Marines on the other hand, Very popular. It wont be banned and wont even be discussed. Wonder if inquisitor coteaz is gonna start making appearences in everybodys armies now thanks to his multiple intercepts of incoming units per turn ability.
I sympathize with the FLG crew as it does start to feel like GW has a little side project going trying to screw their format over with each release.
They are thinking of allowing the Company with the free transports even though it violates their no duplicate formation rule. Seems like every book they are having to re-evaluate where they stand on something. I wonder how this Formation will play out in the ITC. IIRC they ended up putting a nerf on the Blood Angel Stormraven Formation disallowing first turn Drop Pod charges.
Relapse wrote: I get the idea that this is not part of the official codex, but something that comes with a formation bundle that gets purchased?
Simple thing for TO's to do is to just say if it isn't in a codex for the army you're bringing, then you can't use it. At least that's what I'd do if I was a TO.
On the other hand, this is pretty close to the marine fluff.
There are codex-only tournaments and events, but these resent a tiny fraction of games played. ITC allows all dataslates, formations, etc.
Eldar complaining about grav? You do know the ONLY reason grave exists is to fight monstrous creatures like wraith constructs? The weapon, regardless of number of shots is garbage against hordes. Against vehicles? Trash! I'll give up grav when Eldar pay double for wraiths.
Honestly, eldar get this much flack because of that attitude. You don't hear that kind of talk from tau about riptides.
Actually, the grav amp needs to not be there. Grav cannons are decent against all targets. With rerolls to wound they're 5/9ths to wound guardsmen or 3/4ths chance to wound 4+, and really 5+ stuff you have bolters for.
Now grav guns, without the reroll are pretty bad against 4+ and worse save things.
5.Whats the difference between an official USR and the special rules that come with formations? Im asking because Id like to put Dante & a SangPriest in with the assault squad. I got an ax to grind with a certain formation loving Necron player. You like formations buddy? Dont think the decurions too much? Cool. Lets play the new FormationHammer 40k.
One is listed in the brb, the other is not. Other than that, nothing really. The rules are applied to the units chosen from the formation, but not anything else that joins them unless the rule specifically says otherwise.
In some cases it doesn't make any difference to how things operate, but in this instance, the assault squad models have the ability to assault after deepstriking, but nothing gives that ability to the ICs that are attached to the squad.
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them."
Yeah, it's just like if some guy with a bolt gun joins an assault squad and fires his rapid fire weapon. The whole squad can't charge then unless that guy had a rule allowing him to do that.
I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!
Red Marine wrote: Eldar complaining about grav? You do know the ONLY reason grave exists is to fight monstrous creatures like wraith constructs? The weapon, regardless of number of shots is garbage against hordes. Against vehicles? Trash! I'll give up grav when Eldar pay double for wraiths.
Honestly, eldar get this much flack because of that attitude. You don't hear that kind of talk from tau about riptides.
not even close. I have no issue with grav, maybe it gets spammed a lot in most marine lists, but it's obscene vs anything with 2+ or 3+ save. That's fine too...until you put it in the formation discussed and wipe out several units in one go. Sure, wraiths can do that too, IF they take WWPs and we all know what people think of Eldar players doing that. But of course, it's marine BS instead of Eldar...so it's OK.
gmaleron wrote: I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!
Ironically, I am laughing because Eldar got like, hundreds of pages of hate over Distortion weapons and Scatter lasers. But IMO Gladius can be as competitive as Eldar 7e, and Skyhammer is like... WAY over the top, lol, and we have a crumby 3 pages of back and forth
gmaleron wrote: I kind of have to laugh, all these Marine players who were crying about the new Eldar and Necrons now have something that is just as nasty and are getting flakk for it!
Ironically, I am laughing because Eldar got like, hundreds of pages of hate over Distortion weapons and Scatter lasers. But IMO Gladius can be as competitive as Eldar 7e, and Skyhammer is like... WAY over the top, lol, and we have a crumby 3 pages of back and forth
With my Tau, not really worried about this Formation at all. I always give everything Interceptor that can take it just in case for Drop Pod armies, just means I will need to be especially careful about those Devastators with Grav Cannons. The Assault Marines I am confident my Supporting Overwatch will do enough damage to get the job done on top of it.
gmaleron wrote: With my Tau, not really worried about this Formation at all. I always give everything Interceptor that can take it just in case for Drop Pod armies, just means I will need to be especially careful about those Devastators with Grav Cannons. The Assault Marines I am confident my Supporting Overwatch will do enough damage to get the job done on top of it.
For sure, Interceptor is the best way to deal with drop pods. Of course, if you play with terrain, it is often possible to minimize interceptor shots. That being said, this rule may mess with the whole Overwatch thing:
Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.
Whether or not you're hit, you make a morale check. If you pass, you Go to Ground (where you can't fire Overwatch), and if you fail, you just... can't fire Overwatch. It's actually kind of crazy good, especially since the Assault Marines can use jump packs twice (move and assault), charge from reserves, AND against units that failed the Ld check get hit and wound rerolls. And Hammer of Wrath (because they're jumping into battle).
For sure, I think whats even funnier is some Marine players getting offended they have something potential as strong as what the Eldar and Necron can do!
Eldar, Necrons, blah blah blah, what about Admech? We can get free upgrade and relics, did folks already forget how broken our war convocation is? New kids on the block not good enough huh?
On a more serious note though, I wonder if a 3 bot group of Kastelans could survive the initial dev barrage. Don't suppose Icarus Arrays would pose a threat to this formation?
Ir0njack wrote: Eldar, Necrons, blah blah blah, what about Admech? We can get free upgrade and relics, did folks already forget how broken our war convocation is? New kids on the block not good enough huh?
On a more serious note though, I wonder if a 3 bot group of Kastelans could survive the initial dev barrage. Don't suppose Icarus Arrays would pose a threat to this formation?
Oh not denying Mechanicum is very strong, I was considering making an army of them and it was kind of hilarious how they were ignored in regards to how powerful they are. Have to realize that a trend ive been noticing, on forums in particular that as long as its IoM army they are not Overpowerd. For some reason its only the Xenos races that get an insane amount of flakk to the point of ridiculousness when it comes to getting powerful units, formations ect.
In fairness, a lot of the vitriol against Necron and Eldar is because of two things:
1) They've had it pretty easy for a long time
2) Their really good formations -- both now and before -- are pretty easy to play.
On the other hand, as good as this new formation and the Gladius formation seem to be, they will require some skill and experience to execute successfully, and games against different armies may require dramatically different strategies and loadouts.
bullyboy wrote: of course, after all the crying about Eldar and D weaponry are we going to hear similar vitriol regarding the space marine codex and some of their formations? Pretty much why i won't play anywhere D is nerfed down such as ITC changes unless grav is also nerfed considerably. But since I have mostly wraith constructs, people aren't going to have any sympathy for being tabled in two turns. Guess that leaves with little option but to take allied DEWWPs for survival. Not exactly something I wanted to do with my wraiths.
totally agree, problem is its easy to get the votes to downvote the D nerf, 95% of players dont play eldar and if it dosnt hurt their faction, why not vote it down. Marines on the other hand, Very popular. It wont be banned and wont even be discussed. Wonder if inquisitor coteaz is gonna start making appearences in everybodys armies now thanks to his multiple intercepts of incoming units per turn ability.
*comes to thread about a formation even marine players are complaining about being OP* (quotations paraphrased).
"I bet no marine players will complain about this because they play marines"
Err no actually - almost everyone here without exception is saying how OP it is. No apologists here like the ton of users with EJBs and WKs.
"It won't even be discussed"
Do you see the complete irony of that comment on this thread?
"As if there's a weapon that is increadibly effective against almost all my units"
Welcome to how people feel being shot by D and st6 spam.
You know what you don't see yet? People viciously attacking anyone who says it is OP. Something that happened all the time with eldar apologists. So please do not have the audacity to come on to a pleasent thread and turn it into another attack on those who think eldar are OP, especially considering your behaviour from when that dex was released. We admit this is OP and have no problem with agreeing with that.
Marines are still have hard counters, cover saves, interceptor, AP3, Space Marine Scout beacons?!
D-Weapons straight up ignored 100% of everything on a roll of a 6 (and rolls of 2-5 were still fairly deadly!) and were made available everywhere. (Hence the, I think, reasonable ITC changes).
So 5 drop pods turn 1. Would the new & improved dreadnoughts work well? The improved scouts, infiltrate your core troops, for an improved null-deployment? Can ASM field dual special weapons - if so, will it simply be grav-cannon devs and melta ASM's? What kind of skyfire weaponry would compliment this formation well?
Furthering this line of thought, as the formation is a big chunk of points, Where would skyfire be best suited? Could something from the skitarri (or is it Ad-Mech) for the objective-picking relic? Or the walker? Or something native to Space Marines?
The formation with a raven and 2 talons. Give them skyhammers and you get probably the most effective AA that SM can buy for as little as 450pts. Also AA that is a serious threat to ground targets too being bs5 with strafing run.
Here is my problem. I own 7 tactical squads and devestators from 1993 when I started playing. I need some assault marines and new devs and I own 0 pods. So I will buy this from a one click option because they made it easy and I need the models anyway.
Will I use it. No idea. But ease of purchase wins out. I love to support my LGS and I do. Last time I went 70% of the boxes were miss labeled. I wanted to start collecting DC boxes for a 30k BA force and they had 2. One at $33 and one at $67. I figured hmm must be an opps. Started looking at other stuff and it was all like that. I asked about it and he said just labeled them they should be right. I just bought some paint and a box set that was priced correctly and left.
Is this formation over powered? I would like to have seen slow and purposeful on the devestators instead of relentless because then no over watch on the counter assault. Doing some napkin math. A squad of devs, full 10 man with grav (not taking in the combi here because it is more overkill) shooting at one squad of 3+ armor saves should do, with re-rolling ones for the doctrine is just under 14 wounds. Against a scat bike squad that is 7 failed saves (assuming a jink) and could kill 2-3 man squads for each dev squad. So taking 4 or 5 man squads of scat bikes instead and you haven't removed any scoring threats. I know this is paper math and placement, will be huge but if you get to drop between or have in your 24 inch kill range, several 3 man scat bike squads you could/should kill both. Against decurion necrons they remove 7 immortals and even less warriors/wraiths/scarabs/FO.
The fully kitted out 40 man force and pods is close to 950 points. The assault squads have 8 inch threat range with a re-roll of a charge die and can't run? If they fail a charge they die to template weapons.
Grav: 20 x 8/9 (most powerfull is dev doctrine) x 2/3 = 11.85
The bolters cause 1.78 unsaved wounds on average against t4 3+. That is 13.63 wounds not 7 against t4 3+. (1 of the 2 squads).
The assault marines then reroll all hits and wounds most the time on that first charge. If you have played against astorath led DC you will know how powerful that is.
Furthermore, the opponent can do hardly anything against it.
Oops yep- 15.8 wounds just from the 4 grav cannons.
Talking about an astorath led death company. A 15 strong one + A with 3 powerfists is ~600pts (not that anyone goes for 15man these days). This dev squad could reliably wipe out that entire unit in a single turn for 2/5ths the cost, with the BA player able to do absolutely nothing about it. Whilst the devs still maintain the versitility to do the same to anything that is not a low armour save swarm. There is no 'tactics' to that what so ever. Furthermore, you cant go MSU as no squad will have enough bodies to eat the overwatch then take on 10 marines afterwards. Ridiculous!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And thats ONE of the 4 squads.
Lol with every release I see people start bitching and complaining over brokenness of the new rules, formations, etc. The same trend is kept since new Necrons codex
The competitive games workshop scene is actually comparable to a nuclear war, where each faction is represented by a country and formations are nuclear warheads. The U.S (space marines) have just created and launched a nuclear weapon which will crush any foe or civilisation, whilst countries such as Botswana (orks) haven't been able to make a single missile. Games workshop meanwhile fund the conflict. And we will be left with a wasteland of a game..
This formation is ridiculous. People in this thread have already covered why and I just think anything in the game such as this which prevents you from being able to protect your army at all from being decimated has no place in the hobby. I definitely wont play or be played by this formation. Formations do have a place in the game but there is a line. A line which games workshop has leapt several metres across.
shyzo wrote: Lol with every release I see people start bitching and complaining over brokenness of the new rules, formations, etc. The same trend is kept since new Necrons codex
Yes. They are. Its no wonder why when necron warriors in a Decurion are almost as mathematically durable as terminators, and many armies such as orks, tyranids, and IG are severly limited to enjoying/winning games.
I preordered it. Ironically, GW actually created some rules that fit the fluff so well. I think I can actually field a super fluffy list that can be hard as nails. Done deal.
There is a reason people have been complaining since the cron dex. Rotten balance. Until crons, it seemed GW were toning down the power levels to make it more balanced across the board. Orks, Nids, AM, MT, GKs, SWs, DE, BA... now the dexes from that cycle have been utterly shafted by Crons, Eldar, Skittari/mechanicus (with taxi service allies) and now SMs. Its not even reliable looking at it as 2 seperate cycles as Korne Deamonkin is utter garbage in comparison. If you don't play one of the new dexes (aside from KK) its almost an auto loss of you go optimal against optimal. If you don't play optimal all the time (most dont) then you are still at a disadvantage as the new dexes non-optimal still trumps most other dexes optimal.
That is why people are complaining.
And I have a large cron army, so personally its not because Im biased against them.
I took one look at this and I wept tears of pure frustration. To those that do not know I have been a solid IG player since 4th edition. I have invested time and money in my army. And now I have to watch it be pushed closer and closer towards the realms of obsolete by the release of insane rapetastic formations like this. IG players NEED that shooting phase between the enemy deep striking in and charging to do the damage. if you remove that we have nothing.
Well, sure, we do have some CC units. Like Ogryns and Bullgryns, both of which are over priced for what they do. Hell, for the same cost of three Ogryns I can have a battle tank.
Or we have priests whom can have that Evisi.... Wait a minute, the Evisicrator, a weapon that has been with the Imperial Guard's priests since 2nd edition, seems to be missing from the book. I wonder where it could ha-hey SM player, whats that your marines are equipped with? It looks suspiciously like the much needed close combat weapon that is missing from my book.... It couldnt be.... Surely GW doesnt need to buff the Space Marines any more....
And now we come to this. I can see how the games will go: Space Marine player brings two of these plus some long range fire support and a few land speeders with beacons. Turn one he advances the land speeders into cover near my army. Turn two his pair of rape formations drop and clear armound half my army off the board. Turn three and after a desperate fusillade from my few surviving units he finishes me off.
OR
Turn one and everything drops in. His long range support stuff, now boosted by the lack of land speeders, softens the units not being targeted by the newly arrived rape formations or destroys some of my tanks. Then his rape formations charge. Turn two is spent with him mopping up the survivors.
GG
So, welcome to the dying days of Imperial Guard and Tau.
Enjoy your renewed position at the top of the meta Space Marines. After all, you where only off it for what? A few months. Terrible.
Tau would wipe this list off the map with their interceptor rules and Guard would be just fine MoO, I don't know what your deal is.
Even with 4 GravGuns or 4 Lascannons a dev squad coming out of a pod would have problems reliably killing a Leman Russ in cover. Those Assault Squads if they drop too close will risk mishaping.
ultimentra wrote: Tau would wipe this list off the map with their interceptor rules and Guard would be just fine MoO, I don't know what your deal is.
The Tau units would need LoS and range to the intercepted unit, and have weapons capable of significant harm, none of which is guaranteed and the first two of which can be significantly influenced by the SM player. Guard don't have a particularly great response to something like this at all.
Even with 4 GravGuns or 4 Lascannons a dev squad coming out of a pod would have problems reliably killing a Leman Russ in cover.
Lascannons, maybe. Gravcannons? No. 4 Gravcannons will put out enough 6's on average to defeat a 4+ cover save and kill a tank in cover. The drop pod entrance and disembark move can also be used to avoid cover much more easily than simply lobbing shots from AT guns across the board.
Those Assault Squads if they drop too close will risk mishaping.
Given that they can use their jumppacks in the assault phase, that gives them quite a bit of latitude in choosing landing sites and still make it into assault.
As much as I enjoyed reading the pessimistic perspective of Master of the Ordinance, I would like to point out that Tau will destroy this formation. But, please, continue to rant about it as a IG player
Side note: It's 950 points or so if you are running all 40men in this formation with 4 Evis, 2 Meltas bombs, and 8 grav cannons. Running dbl formations with bare squads could work, but you're pushing around 1100 at that point. Some speeders and some TFCs with an HQ and minimum 2 Tac squads and you're looking at a full 1850 army or so.
If you have any tactical awareness, deployment strategy, and some target priority. This formation isn't too much to handle. It is a great formation, don't get me wrong. I want to run it. At least try it before I go about even thinking of buying the models necessary. But I don't believe it is as strong or as WOWOMGOPPOSSPESSMEERINES formation like people are saying. The math and numbers don't support it.
It's really risky deepstriking those ASMs so close to the enemy in assault range. The Devs will get their shots off, but its a lot of points for marines that are simple marines. T4 and 3+ bodies die in the edition. And they die in droves.
When was the last time you saw SM players flood the top tables short of White Scars, Tiggy and friends, and that one time Scouts and Lysander showed up?
T5, spammble gravs, 4++ jinks, CentStars, and MSU (with a smart general) won those tournaments. Not ASMs and some Grav cannons in the back. Those gravs are 14+35 ppm. That die like any other marine. Especially when they are out of the droppod and going to take return assaults or firepower. Yes, you will lose models from the formation (ASMs/Devs) but every army does this. That's why armies like the Necron Decurion are strong, they survive the alpha strike armies. It's a RPS game most of the time in a tournament. This is just another rock in the pile of scissors and papers.
TL;DR - The strengths and weaknesses have been pointed out thru out this thread and I agree with most. The new formation will have it's place, like everything else, but DO NOT think it's unbeatable.
MoO?
What does a single non spam able model that drop a large blast str9ap3 blast that scatters 2d6 have to do with being just fine vs this formation?
At least you could of said inquisitor Cortez as that makes some sense. However I don't think even Cortez in a fully equipped combined guard platoon can wipe out 2 drop pods and 2 assault squads.
We played the sky hammer formation today, once vs a Admech war congregation and the second vs scat bike / hornet spam.
Both games resulted in a loss for the marines. While this formation is absolutely brutual, without the right support it will just be removed from the table the next turn.
You absolutely must combat squad the devastators ( take with Grav) you also need something to deploy alongside them - another pod or two to distract/ deter enemy units. Because of the formation being 700-840 pts depending on bodies you need to be cautious of what you spend your rest of pts on too.
I think a mass pod army is the best way to go but we've just to play it out so cannot be sure.
Also, the fact you can fit 22 scatbikes, 9 hornets and a wrists knight into a 1750 pt list is just disgusting... Lol
I don't think saying this formstion lost to scatbike spam and ad mech war congregation and saying this list lost means much without context of what the rest of your list entailed considering those are likely the two most powerful lists in the game right now. For instance in your eldar army example the grav devs can easily kill the knight and likely still have combat squad shots left over to fire at the hornets. Then the assault squads could charge into the hornets without overwatxh and kill at least two more squads of those(with furious charge) This leaves the rest of your army to target the scats. Which are? And scat lasers are still ap5 and have to deal with the immediate threat of 20 3+ marines in close proximity.
Saythings wrote: As much as I enjoyed reading the pessimistic perspective of Master of the Ordinance, I would like to point out that Tau will destroy this formation. But, please, continue to rant about it as a IG player
Side note: It's 950 points or so if you are running all 40men in this formation with 4 Evis, 2 Meltas bombs, and 8 grav cannons. Running dbl formations with bare squads could work, but you're pushing around 1100 at that point. Some speeders and some TFCs with an HQ and minimum 2 Tac squads and you're looking at a full 1850 army or so.
If you have any tactical awareness, deployment strategy, and some target priority. This formation isn't too much to handle. It is a great formation, don't get me wrong. I want to run it. At least try it before I go about even thinking of buying the models necessary. But I don't believe it is as strong or as WOWOMGOPPOSSPESSMEERINES formation like people are saying. The math and numbers don't support it.
It's really risky deepstriking those ASMs so close to the enemy in assault range. The Devs will get their shots off, but its a lot of points for marines that are simple marines. T4 and 3+ bodies die in the edition. And they die in droves.
When was the last time you saw SM players flood the top tables short of White Scars, Tiggy and friends, and that one time Scouts and Lysander showed up?
T5, spammble gravs, 4++ jinks, CentStars, and MSU (with a smart general) won those tournaments. Not ASMs and some Grav cannons in the back. Those gravs are 14+35 ppm. That die like any other marine. Especially when they are out of the droppod and going to take return assaults or firepower. Yes, you will lose models from the formation (ASMs/Devs) but every army does this. That's why armies like the Necron Decurion are strong, they survive the alpha strike armies. It's a RPS game most of the time in a tournament. This is just another rock in the pile of scissors and papers.
TL;DR - The strengths and weaknesses have been pointed out thru out this thread and I agree with most. The new formation will have it's place, like everything else, but DO NOT think it's unbeatable.
Nobody is saying you can't kill the units that come ina, but by the time you've done that, it's entirely possible that the formations has destroyed potentially 4-6 of your own units and wiped an entire flank (or, depending on what you're running, most of your army).
Yes, some other armies have some absurd stuff too, and there's plenty of complaining about them, but those are different topics. As someone who has armies for most of the factions in the game (IG, CSM, DKoK, Eldar, Nids, GK, SoB, SM's and Tau), and has been playing through four or five editions, I like to think that I have at least some idea of what I'm talking about. When playing my mechanized IG, ultimate nightmare scenario is that pods come down, Devs engage and destroy 2-4 tanks (entirely possible with Grav Cannons sporting Grav amps), assault marines engage 2-4 more units (either through combat squads or multi-assaults, tanks are absurdly easy to kill in assaults), and at that point the game is not recoverable, it's at the point where in a real world situation the commander would order a withdrawal, and in-game the outcome is already decided.
That's not a particularly hard outcome to achieve with this formation at all, it would require very little effort on the part of the marine player to see that outcome through.
Hang on Sarigar. They lost against 2 of the new dexes. How on earth does that help the rest of us? We never once said Eldar or Mechanicus weren't OP too.
Next time play it against CSM or DA then tell us how it fared.
Wilson wrote: We played the sky hammer formation today, once vs a Admech war congregation and the second vs scat bike / hornet spam.
Both games resulted in a loss for the marines. While this formation is absolutely brutual, without the right support it will just be removed from the table the next turn.
You absolutely must combat squad the devastators ( take with Grav) you also need something to deploy alongside them - another pod or two to distract/ deter enemy units. Because of the formation being 700-840 pts depending on bodies you need to be cautious of what you spend your rest of pts on too.
I think a mass pod army is the best way to go but we've just to play it out so cannot be sure.
Also, the fact you can fit 22 scatbikes, 9 hornets and a wrists knight into a 1750 pt list is just disgusting... Lol
Who went first in both games? Like the difference between first vs 2nd for War Congregation is the difference between near army wide 2/3+ cover saves vs not. There is also the interesting part where the Ad Mech goes 2nd, while the SM player decided to drop everything on T1 for some reason, since that is said in deployment. The admech leaves most units in reserves except those getting a 4+ cover saves that also excel in melee (infiltraitors and rust stalkers), then counter drops in on Turn 1 and is able to eliminate the entire marine drop since the marine player is forced to drop T1.
Like the Ad-mech matchup seems really dependent upon who goes first and how the reserves workout.
I am also curious how the Eldar MU worked out, like if the marine player once again dropped entirely on T1 while the Eldar player just had a few units spread across the board then had almost his entire army come in from reserves T2 (autarch). On the otherhand if the eldar had his army out and the marine player went 2nd and the Eldar won, that sounds good for the Eldar. Same if the marine player went 2nd and the eldar player reserved a lot so the marine player decided to deploy his drops on T2.
Poly Ranger wrote: Hang on Sarigar. They lost against 2 of the new dexes. How on earth does that help the rest of us? We never once said Eldar or Mechanicus weren't OP too.
Next time play it against CSM or DA then tell us how it fared.
But last month Eldar were nigh unbeatable according to the Internet. I guess for "the rest of us", ensure one's army plays well within 7th edition and/or play better. Dismissing someone indicating they actually played out games and indicating it is not an auto lose was the same dismissive attitude folks posted last month when they played against the new Eldar.
For myself, I prefer to adapt against new armies and tactics and keep the game fresh. Bring on the formation and D weapons- I enjoy the challenge.
Poly Ranger wrote: Hang on Sarigar. They lost against 2 of the new dexes. How on earth does that help the rest of us? We never once said Eldar or Mechanicus weren't OP too.
Next time play it against CSM or DA then tell us how it fared.
But last month Eldar were nigh unbeatable according to the Internet. I guess for "the rest of us", ensure one's army plays well within 7th edition and/or play better. Dismissing someone indicating they actually played out games and indicating it is not an auto lose was the same dismissive attitude folks posted last month when they played against the new Eldar.
For myself, I prefer to adapt against new armies and tactics and keep the game fresh. Bring on the formation and D weapons- I enjoy the challenge.
Never dismissed it. Fully accept that the new codexes can take each other on. Apart from khorne deamonkin. Its all the rest that really really struggle. Why should a player have to really really struggle and bring out their A* game, whilst the other player can play horrendously and still win easily?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and btw - I proposed a good counter on the counter thread so its not like I'm refusing to try.
So are the rules for this formation in the Codex or included with the bundle? If it's the former then I was wrong about not buying the new 'Dex. If it's the latter, I might just be done with Marines altogether...
Tyron wrote: I'm assuming this is GW's version of DLC?
I'm assuming we are months away from formations becoming something GW sells online alone on an individual basis, generally representing the single best choices in the game.
These "Only 100 available!" deals are just a test bed for the idea. People will pay for them gladly, gleefully looking forward to the power of their new army while simultaneously calling out about how they only bought them for the fluff.
It's no different than buying a Playboy "for the articles." (If people still buy the magazines, that is )
Tyron wrote: I'm assuming this is GW's version of DLC?
I'm assuming we are months away from formations becoming something GW sells online alone on an individual basis, generally representing the single best choices in the game.
These "Only 100 available!" deals are just a test bed for the idea. People will pay for them gladly, gleefully looking forward to the power of their new army while simultaneously calling out about how they only bought them for the fluff.
It's no different than buying a Playboy "for the articles." (If people still buy the magazines, that is )
The vibe I'm getting is GW are aware of gaming DLC and knows of it's success (regardless of player backlash) and are trying to integrate it within their system. So to me this would be the first stage and when it works they would release them digitally for a fee. This would enable them another monetary avenue while also helping weaker armies having a solution to compete but inevitably forcing players to one up each other to remain competitive.
My only concern however is GW will be starting a very dangerous trend while other companies are watching very carefully until it's accepted as the norm within the hhhoby and then follow suit. I hope I'm wrong on this.
Oh I think it's a terrible trend too and hope it doesn't come to pass. However, it seems my hopes are always dashed with GW. As it has been said many times before with GW, "hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
Poly Ranger wrote: No you don't need to. There is no rule in the game saying you must have a codex or other data source present when you play the game. (Afaik)
It is poor sportsmanship to not have the rules on hand to show your opponent. At least get a photo copy of the dataslate.
Accolade wrote: Oh I think it's a terrible trend too and hope it doesn't come to pass. However, it seems my hopes are always dashed with GW. As it has been said many times before with GW, "hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
GW is the logical choice to start this off.
I'll keep an eye on how this turns out and do some trays to accommodate the trend.
Dakkamite wrote: If your under 40 and can't get a hold of this dataslate within a few months I gotta say losing at 40k is probably the least of your issues
I have said it before, and will say it again: I assert that bloodofkittens is not in violation of any copyright laws, because Games Workshop most certainly knows about it (seriously, who doesn't?) and hasn't asked them to shut it down. Since GW is the intellectual property holder, if it's cool with them, it should be cool with players.
And: if you think a formation is too powerful, that's fine, don't play against it. Advocate against a ban at tournaments, if you will. But, the solution isn't to say, "I don't have to worry about it unless someone buys the web bundle with the printed copy of the rules." Incidentally, I bought a Plasma Obliterator, and it didn't come with anything in the box. The GW rep sent to my FLGS a PHOTOCOPY of the sheets, including the rules (the ones in WD have an error on it), since the originals were sold out. I would hope that nobody has a problem with the legitimacy of that!
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Poly Ranger wrote: No you don't need to. There is no rule in the game saying you must have a codex or other data source present when you play the game. (Afaik)
I agree. You should be able to present a generally accepted "undoctored" or "honest" copy of the rules if someone asks, though (as in, players can agree that this copy contains the original rules, and hasn't been modified). I own every freakin' GW and FW book printed (not web bundle dataslates, obviously...) for 40k since Rogue Trader, but there's zero chance I'm going to pack my copy of Shield of Baal, 3 codices, BRB, and 6 copies of White Dwarf with me everywhere I go. A mini paperback rulebook "just in case", and that's it. Someone wants to confirm rules, I pop it up on Blood of Kittens on my cell phone. I don't even take the codex for my own army (though I take a photocopy of the referece sheets in the back), unless it's brand new, like the new SM or Eldar one. Maybe I'll have it ion the trunk of the car by chance, but I'm not gonna bring it out to "prove" I own it >.<
Alright, that's fair then. Back when I was playing more regularly, there were no dataslates or multiple Codices per faction. Having your rulebook and Codex was the standard expectation.
Glad to hear that's been relaxed with all the varied sources for the rules now!
Not sure how gravdevs and ASM gonna do well against daemons, 2++ re-roll screamer stars, invisible hound star, Dronestar with 2+ cover saves.
Eldar codex is still more powerful in my opinion. Although sky hammer is a good counter against Scatbikes and WK/WG. Sometimes top tournament level play is kinda rock paper scissors.
Zagaboff wrote: $140 aus for assault squads this release, I new GW would make them worth buying lol.
In fairness, you can just buy the old ASM if you don't care about the look. I dunno about Oz, but I've seen them discounted down to $20 a box here, and they aren't moving.
Zagaboff wrote: $140 aus for assault squads this release, I new GW would make them worth buying lol.
In fairness, you can just buy the old ASM if you don't care about the look. I dunno about Oz, but I've seen them discounted down to $20 a box here, and they aren't moving.
Does anyone have pics of the old vs. new? I'd like to see how different the sizes are.
@Lord Corelia - The models are the same size, if you aren't including the scenic base (and pose). The jetpacks, too.
Their height or bulkiness did not get buffed, unlike the Devastators, who are now physically larger
However, the new models have MUCH sharper plastic bits. Like, the recesses are deeper and crisper and precisely consistent, whereas the old bits were similar to the command/old devastator box, with the fuzzier plastic.
Ok, just wondering because a while back I found a second-hand copy of the 3rd ed Marine battleforce. The minis weren't necessarily out of scale but they definitely seemed thinner in some ways...
Glad to hear though that I should be able to mix the older ones and the new without much issue. My painting is crap enough that it should disguise any improvements in casting
Dakkamite wrote: Orks have been raped off the table without response since the dawn of 4th at least.
While part of me sympathizes, another part just laughs.
For myself, I prefer to adapt against new armies and tactics and keep the game fresh. Bring on the formation and D weapons- I enjoy the challenge.
Try a different game mate, and you'll see what a legitimate tactical challenge is.
Why? I enjoy 40K and the folks I game with. A lot of complaints sound like folks are not playing with like minded players. I typically pre-arrange games with opponents or attend local tourneys/larger two day events where myself and my opponent are in agreement with the parameters of what we are going to play (whether by mutual agreement or a tournament packet). I can and do play what is agreed upon and have little to no issues. Right now, I only own one army, Eldar, with nearly 20,000 points painted. The army ranges from masses of Guardians up to a Revenant and everything in between. I'm flexible and can and do play what folks are comfortable with playing. I certainly don't show up to the FLGS looking for a pick up game and find some unsuspecting person to plunk a Revenant on the table. If that is what folks are running into constantly, they need to take a new approach to getting a game in; the experience will be much more enjoyable.
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
I think I found a quote worthy of my signature here.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
I'm starting to wonder if these new dexes are just a ploy by GW to get people who bought theirs last year to clamour for a new release or at least some new OP supplement.
TBH, seeing this formation almost made me not buy the new marine codex (I'd stopped buying stuff after the Eldar one came out). They're pretty close to pushing me to a point where I decide this isn't worth it anymore.
Only real counters I see for older armies is to flood the table with cheap models. but that's not viable in a timed game where moving 100+ models guarantees that the game will only get to turn 3.
jSewell wrote: Honestly, I think all models should be able to assault from deep strike, but yes, the formation is a little overly strong and probably primarily because it is a Webstore exclusive, not that that means you'll have to buy it to see the rules
Actually I think you do, you need to buy the set to have the rules sheet to bring it out in a game, it is actually mini dex in that respect.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
This.... This is being sigged.
Right, so far from what I have seen the only battle reports with this formation in it have been between the new SM codex and one of the two/three other brand spanking new codex's. A balanced comparison to other armies this does not make. What about IG? Our AA stuff was denied the Interceptor rule, so we cant counter this formation as it comes in. Our close combat units have been significantly nerfed in the form of a massive price hike and our priest has had his epic chainblade of kill stolen by one of the top tier armies.
This list will rape an IG list. Sure, my surviving tanks and infantry sections may be able to drive the SM forces back after they have hit home but thats not going to be easy, hell calling it hard is an understatement.
Try and get some battle reports against some of the older not top tier codex's. Youll see the difference.
Dakkamite wrote: If your under 40 and can't get a hold of this dataslate within a few months I gotta say losing at 40k is probably the least of your issues
Wait... under or over 40... crap... I have OTHER issues? <dialing grimdark psychiatrist, Dr Neckbeard>
jSewell wrote: Honestly, I think all models should be able to assault from deep strike, but yes, the formation is a little overly strong and probably primarily because it is a Webstore exclusive, not that that means you'll have to buy it to see the rules
Actually I think you do, you need to buy the set to have the rules sheet to bring it out in a game, it is actually mini dex in that respect.
Got a BRB page number on that imperative declaration, amigo?
Since when do people get to "Decide" what rules they are going to play against? If someone wants to run a Seere council on jet bikes, I just play them. It's their army and as long as it is legal and within the bounds of the rules (i.e FW or a formation) they can play that. If I lose oh well I learned something and will do better next time, if I win. I'm a boss and by myself a Coke.
Marines have not had a great formation or attack tactic like this since i can't remember when. I can't wait to try it out.
I am still just wondering what happened to cover and bubble wrap for a number of the people posting on this thread. People keep bandying about number of casualties in the upper 30's however if you bother to use even a 5+ cover then you will drop these casualties by at least 10. If you are smart you will GtG as soon as a grav dev unit shoots at the unit and this will cut the damage by another 5 models. You can even use your own cheap disposable units to provide cover and keep the assault marines away from valuable targets.
For IG players this is the the grav version of this formation is a joke to play against. Just deploy some of those IG infantry squads to act as bubble wrap slightly less than 4" away from your important stuff (assault squad of 5 models needs a minimum of 4" space between units to not mishap). The grav will probably kill a non super heavy per every 3 grav cannons but you can work around that with appropriate LoS blocking terrain and reserves.
ansacs wrote: I am still just wondering what happened to cover and bubble wrap for a number of the people posting on this thread. People keep bandying about number of casualties in the upper 30's however if you bother to use even a 5+ cover then you will drop these casualties by at least 10. If you are smart you will GtG as soon as a grav dev unit shoots at the unit and this will cut the damage by another 5 models. You can even use your own cheap disposable units to provide cover and keep the assault marines away from valuable targets.
For IG players this is the the grav version of this formation is a joke to play against. Just deploy some of those IG infantry squads to act as bubble wrap slightly less than 4" away from your important stuff (assault squad of 5 models needs a minimum of 4" space between units to not mishap). The grav will probably kill a non super heavy per every 3 grav cannons but you can work around that with appropriate LoS blocking terrain and reserves.
Well for marine armies, our bubble wrap is still (mostly) overly expensive guys in power armor, so they can still do heavy damage by shooting at the bubble wrap itself. And if they're shooting at an important Devastator unit or tank, 5+ cover is NOT going to cut it anyway. 4 grav cannons would overkill by such a degree that you'll still lose your tank/squad even when passing a good amount of the cover saves.
Yes there are armies and builds that skyhammer doesn't perform stellar against. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
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Black Dragon wrote: Since when do people get to "Decide" what rules they are going to play against? If someone wants to run a Seere council on jet bikes, I just play them. It's their army and as long as it is legal and within the bounds of the rules (i.e FW or a formation) they can play that. If I lose oh well I learned something and will do better next time, if I win. I'm a boss and by myself a Coke.
Marines have not had a great formation or attack tactic like this since i can't remember when. I can't wait to try it out.
After a while of losing to things that are clearly out of balance with your own army, the novelty DOES wear off. If you're the type of player that is perfectly fine lining up your army to reenact an "Alamo-esque" last stand and be a piñata for the opponent, then more power to you. Some people actually want a balanced game and not the "forge the narrative" stuff.
PS - All I did was right click the image thumbnail on the product listing and choose "open in new tab". Original image is embedded from GW's site for the product listing.
Actually I think you do, you need to buy the set to have the rules sheet to bring it out in a game, it is actually mini dex in that respect.
Got a BRB page number on that imperative declaration, amigo?
You are seriously asking if I have a BRB citation for having to have a codex and a rulebook when playing my army in the shop? Whhhhaaa??
Listen: if you went to a gw TOURNAMENT and used that FORMATION in your list they would want to SEE THE SHEET. That goes for gw stores in a memo too i'll bet
niv-mizzet wrote: Yes there are armies and builds that skyhammer doesn't perform stellar against. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
Yep. And this is the same complaint people had with Eldar, that it's just too good for the points cost. It's not going to table you or win every game, it's just significantly better than it should be. I'm definitely in the "ban" crowd on this one...partially due to it's webstore exclusive status, and partly due to how OP it is.
Warhammer 40K is rapidly becoming a game where whoever gets to shoot first, wins. I really wish the pre-necron codex trend had continued because that was a game I actually was enjoying. With the exception of Decurion necrons and a few superheavies; deepstriking grav, scatter lasers, and D-weapons have made durability non-existent. It's purely a game of offense and timing now.
niv-mizzet wrote:Well for marine armies, our bubble wrap is still (mostly) overly expensive guys in power armor, so they can still do heavy damage by shooting at the bubble wrap itself. And if they're shooting at an important Devastator unit or tank, 5+ cover is NOT going to cut it anyway. 4 grav cannons would overkill by such a degree that you'll still lose your tank/squad even when passing a good amount of the cover saves.
Yes there are armies and builds that skyhammer doesn't perform stellar against. That doesn't mean it's not broken.
This isn't necessarily true. With combat squads and either TAC marines (use the squads without the special weapon + combi on the board) and scout squads the devs will come down and deal little to no meaningful damage if they kill bubble wrap. If the assault marines charge then they are not good against other SM units. The interesting thing is that if you are taking 60 scouts anyways you can actually space them out in such a way to keep units from being able to DS within ~24" range depending on terrain.
Heck, the grav devs will on average fail to kill a 5 man scout squad if they bother to GtG in regular ruins, a buffed terrain, camo cloaks + any terrain, or fortification. Rhino, drop pod (just drop empty pods turn 1 and walk the units on), and razorback based SM builds can make the multiple Skyhammer Annihiltion Force lists posted here look silly.
These lists are definitely DS based lists and the tactics that work against them work here. However failure does punish the unprepared more than your typical drop pod SMTAC list.
Actually I think you do, you need to buy the set to have the rules sheet to bring it out in a game, it is actually mini dex in that respect.
Got a BRB page number on that imperative declaration, amigo?
You are seriously asking if I have a BRB citation for having to have a codex and a rulebook when playing my army in the shop? Whhhhaaa??
Listen: if you went to a gw TOURNAMENT and used that FORMATION in your list they would want to SEE THE SHEET. That goes for gw stores in a memo too i'll bet
GW organizing tournaments? What is this, did we go back in time to the 90´s? I have a pretty good quality copy of the sheet on my home pc so photocopying that would certainly be enough. They can't possibly expect you to carry around a priceless, 1-in-200 limited run item, can they? What if you lost it and you'd NEVER EVER be able to use the rules that everyone already knows? And besides, one of the main principles of a justice state is that the burden of proof doesn't rest on the defendant. They have to prove that you're guilty, you don't have to prove your innocence.
I think most of the people freaking out here A.never played 4th edition(outflanking gene stealers anyone) and B. Have gotten so used to not being assaulted that they forgot how to deal with it.
Seriously outside of the grav Devs turn 1 fire power it's really not worth he points. Assault marines still suck in close combat, hey can't get a meaningful number of damage dealing weapons
Leth wrote: I think most of the people freaking out here A.never played 4th edition(outflanking gene stealers anyone) and B. Have gotten so used to not being assaulted that they forgot how to deal with it.
Seriously outside of the grav Devs turn 1 fire power it's really not worth he points. Assault marines still suck in close combat, hey can't get a meaningful number of damage dealing weapons
I think they can, in most cases, erase more than their points cost though, and you get 2 more pods that don't go against the total. Plus, the Assault guys you don't even need to upgrade (maybe one powerfist or something if you want to punch stuff and at least be a threat). Just use them to tarpit stuff that you don't want to deal with for a couple of turns.
Incidentally, whatever it is, GW did a good job on selling an otherwise crap bundle. It' sold out, lol.
Leth wrote: I think most of the people freaking out here A.never played 4th edition(outflanking gene stealers anyone) and B. Have gotten so used to not being assaulted that they forgot how to deal with it.
Seriously outside of the grav Devs turn 1 fire power it's really not worth he points. Assault marines still suck in close combat, hey can't get a meaningful number of damage dealing weapons
I think they can, in most cases, erase more than their points cost though, and you get 2 more pods that don't go against the total. Plus, the Assault guys you don't even need to upgrade (maybe one powerfist or something if you want to punch stuff and at least be a threat). Just use them to tarpit stuff that you don't want to deal with for a couple of turns.
Incidentally, whatever it is, GW did a good job on selling an otherwise crap bundle. It' sold out, lol.
If you dont have elements in your army that can kill 5 assault marines in round of combat, I think that is more of an issue with your army composition.
Yea and if it was just the devastators I would agree. However the issue is that grav cannons are very expensive, for 4 you are putting 140 points into a unit. Thats 420 put on 10 marine bodies. Now assuming you max out that is 560, add in two pods and its 630. That is 1/3 of your army. Now that's before the 170 points you have to use on assault marines. All of a sudden we are approaching the 1/2 way mark for you army.
I think it is powerful yes, however I don't think it is the end all be all. Secondly you have to declare during deployment which turn the unit is coming in. Now if you deploy first I now know if nearly half your army is going to be off the board for a guaranteed turn or is going to show up turn two. Having to declare during your deployment phase gives your opponent plenty of opportunities to counter deploy and prepare. It also leaves the rest of your army exposed for a turn if you are not going first.
I still fail to see why the SM players needed yet another buff. And all the arguments given here have so far failed to budge me.
This formation is broken. End of.
I can only hope that we IG players get something as broken as it in the very near future. Something better than our two crap formations one of which is an overly expensive if portable defence and the other of which grants 4 special rules to 6 battle tanks, a Hydra and a command tank. 4 special rules of which only two can actually be used by the vehicles.
You are not thinking in the 7th edition mindset. Your IG are Imperial, and you can include this exact formation into your army and they are Battle Brothers. Allies are simply a part of the game now and there is really nothing other than personal preference to not utilize those rules.
master of ordinance wrote: I still fail to see why the SM players needed yet another buff. And all the arguments given here have so far failed to budge me.
This formation is broken. End of.
I can only hope that we IG players get something as broken as it in the very near future. Something better than our two crap formations one of which is an overly expensive if portable defence and the other of which grants 4 special rules to 6 battle tanks, a Hydra and a command tank. 4 special rules of which only two can actually be used by the vehicles.
I'm just going to revert to the days of Modern Warfare 2 and begin casually mocking people (eg, noobtubes) who contribute to the decline of the game by applauding GW for giving them cheese lists like this.
master of ordinance wrote: I still fail to see why the SM players needed yet another buff. And all the arguments given here have so far failed to budge me.
This formation is broken. End of.
I can only hope that we IG players get something as broken as it in the very near future. Something better than our two crap formations one of which is an overly expensive if portable defence and the other of which grants 4 special rules to 6 battle tanks, a Hydra and a command tank. 4 special rules of which only two can actually be used by the vehicles.
You're not forging the narrative hard enough!
Bubutbut the rules state - DAMN THE RULES, WHO DO YOU THINK I AM, ON OF THOSE NON SPACE MARINE PLAYING PEASANTS?!
That said all joking aside, this 'Forge the Narrative' stuff seems to be just yet another way for GW to forcibly push their hardon for Space Marines down our throats. Unless I can 'Forge the Narrative' and give all my tanks 10HP and armour 15 on the front?.....
Gee, Jetbikes with Scatterlasers and Distortion weapons seem like such a long time ago now.
Any bets on whether it will be all about Dark Angels' new super duper formation next week?
I'm not sure what all the vitriol about this formation is anyways. YES, it's good. But it's not like taking Skyhammer is going to guarantee you victory. Why shouldn't armies get nice things?
After having played skyhammer formation vs eldar and the cheesecakeiest army our grey knights could muster I have to deem this formation ridiculously strong. It's literally a leaf blower, even more so as ultra marines.
By the way, for those who haven't noticed, the Skyhammer Annihilation Force is now sold-out on the gee-dubs USA website. I guess it's limited edition now, too?
Edit:
Also, sigging this.
Crimson Devil wrote: 7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.
The article mentions joining characters to it. Has that been discussed? They can't arrive turn 1, and can't charge when they come in, right? If they attach a character?
Spellbound wrote: The article mentions joining characters to it. Has that been discussed? They can't arrive turn 1, and can't charge when they come in, right? If they attach a character?
Combined Reserved Units Informs us that any ICs that joins the Skyhammer formation while in reserve would indeed arrive with the formation on the turn the formation arrived.
The rules for independent characters state they can't join unless the IC also has deepstrike for the assault marines at least. You can't just have non jump pack independent charscters appearing for no reason.
The drop pods however are open to abuse. Relentless is a shared usr.
1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS
2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.
ansacs wrote: 1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS
2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.
ansacs wrote: 1) if an IC joins the assault marines there is nothing in the rules that states the IC can also assault after DS. Thus you get an assault squad that cannot assault after DS
2) The Suppressing Fusillade rule states a morale check at the end of the shooting phase to see if you GtG. You have to choose to GtG before rolling to hit thus you definitely get to choose before taking the test.
At least those are the rules posted everywhere.
With regards to issue 1 there is a definitive rule
CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of
a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too,
as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of
the unit.
As an Ork player, I'm not sure this will be as devastating to me. Honestly, the Dev squads are going to be strapped for good targets. I don't tend to play too much armor. I suppose if they are able to bring some flamers, I might be in trouble. But I should have enough bodies to keep the damage down before I charge them the following turn. The Assault Marines might be a little trickier, but from past experience against the Marine players in my location, Boyz almost always come out on top of Marines, even if I don't get charged. I tend to have too many bodies to kill, and too many attacks returning, even without the charge.
Going against this formation will be TOUGH, that's no doubt. For us Greenskins, I feel we fare a bit better. Marines want this to get their grav where it needs to be and to be able to bring a LOT of it. In general, Orks don't have many targets that NEED that kind of weapon to take out. It seems to be a wasted weapon choice. In most cases, Marines will probly want to avoid CC with us.
I'd love to get some test games in. I'm hoping I can get some Marine players in my area to run a couple games with this formation and see what happens. Swarm will likely be the counter to this.
Most likely not, however, you won't be getting everything into melee. If you are just one large blob (how most green horde lists are ran) I'll shoot off about 25 boys easily. Force 2-4 GtG checks on 3d6, if that fails you'll have normally 20 assault marines in your face at different spotsz rerolling everything (even HoW)
Eat those wounds, you WON'T kill all of them in one Go, I'll clean up your other units while moving away,
raiden wrote: Most likely not, however, you won't be getting everything into melee. If you are just one large blob (how most green horde lists are ran) I'll shoot off about 25 boys easily. Force 2-4 GtG checks on 3d6, if that fails you'll have normally 20 assault marines in your face at different spotsz rerolling everything (even HoW)
Eat those wounds, you WON'T kill all of them in one Go, I'll clean up your other units while moving away,
Well, if I'm running the Tide, you can't force me to ground. No Tide goes without the Big Bosspole, which gives Fearless, meaning we CAN'T gtg. If I'm NOT running the Tide, you'll maybe force me to go to ground with a couple of squads. And what is the wording on the test? Is a pinning check? If so, I get to use Bosspoles on every squad you attempt to shut down. If it's a moral test, I still get Bosspole checks to stay on my feet.
You'll do a lot of damage, but in both situations, you're not in a good spot by the end of it all. You don't have enough firepower to suppress them all. And we aren't even talking the possibility of Painboyz or KFF to mitigate wounds away either.
Of course, we are both paper hammering, and not actually playing. We can keep going back and forth with 'well I'll just x' as a response. I still think Orks will be alright. Not great. But alright, against this formation.
I will agree horde ork or foot guard type armies will do well against it. (Or better than most). Can't say the same for nids though as synapse creatures are all but gone.
The 25 was taking into affect a painboy for the big blob. Not accounting drop pod fire. (Since you should always have one...) KFF I don't like now since its a per model basis, but eh.
If you aren't running tide, il force to tests morale for GtG, then one for falling back from shooting. Etc etc, but yeah I agree theoryhammer can be silly.
raiden wrote:I will agree horde ork or foot guard type armies will do well against it. (Or better than most). Can't say the same for nids though as synapse creatures are all but gone.
Actually with the nid's ability to have an army wide 2+ cover save and fearless when you DS in and the quality bubble wrap you will average a single dead flyrant per Skyhammer Annihiltion Force, assuming no FnP, UM reroll to hit, and perfect LoS... Not exactly removing all the synapse sources in pretty much any nid list.
raiden wrote:If you aren't running tide, il force to tests morale for GtG, then one for falling back from shooting. Etc etc, but yeah I agree theoryhammer can be silly.
I was pretty convinced at this point that if an Ork player doesn't play green tide they play MSU ork units either bikes or in trukks. Either of those armies will make this formation look silly when they cause a whopping ~200 pts in casualties on their big alpha strike and get drowned in bodies and outgunned next turn. The ork player can charge the assault squads with glee as a source of extra movement and will be in range to shoot pretty much everything at the 24" range devs.
@Thread
People keep touting this formation as still highly effective against horde armies but continuously ignore cover saves on these armies, which is ironic as there is absolutely no reason for a unit to not GtG if when shot at by the grav devs. Any number targeting IG and nids that does not have at least a 3+ cover save involved is not realistic. IG have an order to get back in the fight and numerous sources of +1 cover or can take an ADL for 2+ GtG cover. Nids have a shrouded bubble and sacrificial little bugs to help bubble wrap and give cover.
There is also a constant tacit assumption that the assault marines will not only make their charges but will get to charge units they can beat handily in melee. With even the barest nod toward countering this in deployment the assault squads will fail to make their charges. Just deploy your outer shell of units in terrain and enjoy the -2 to charge distance. That puts a lot of pressure on the assault marines to attempt risky DS which also tend to end in mishaps or bad scatters.
yeah this is horrible against most hordes, well, unless people actually took HB's on the devs but most wont i think.
nost people bring grav on the devs, not only is it bad against hordes, but you fish for 6's on knights and still have the invul to get around, there are a lot cheaper ways to get 5-10 melta shots off too.
so most people would likely take grav or multi meltas, so either great against monsters, or good against vehicles.
the full scatter onthe ASM is a bigger problem then people give it credit for, a smart opponent will deploy in ways to mitigate that charge from reserves.
This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.
My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.
biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.
I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.
easysauce wrote: yeah this is horrible against most hordes, well, unless people actually took HB's on the devs but most wont i think.
nost people bring grav on the devs, not only is it bad against hordes, but you fish for 6's on knights and still have the invul to get around, there are a lot cheaper ways to get 5-10 melta shots off too.
The Grav weapons aren't actually all that bad against hordes. Against 5+sv models, the Grav Cannons are putting out more wounds than Heavy Bolters would, it's only against 6+sv models that they're truly bad, and, compared to every other Dev weapon option *but* Heavy Bolters, the Grav Weapons still do better against Hordes.
Either way, if you're using drop podding relentless Devastators against a Horde unit, you're probably doing something wrong , especially given how many other options SM's have for dealing with them, not the least of which being 2x flamer+assaulting Assault Marines that probably won't need to rely on the Dev's pinning mechanic to be effective.
And while the Grav weapons may not not terribly spectacular against a Knight, they're certainly not awful if the Knight doesn't put its shield to the Grav Devs, it's likely to lose 4 of its 6 HP's.
On top of that they'll almost certainly kill any 2-3 HP vehicle (98% of the vehicles in the game) even if they're sporting a 4+ cover save
Having looked at the formation I am a little upset at its power level (along with the power levels of Decurion dex's), but that's only because im orks and it seems not only did we miss the power level hike, but it was such a long time between our codexes! so salt in the wound.
With regards to dealing with this, generally I don't enjoy green tide, but extreme MSU is very possible and enjoyable with orks. generally i'll have enough bubble wrap grots, or enough cannon fodder boyz that the skyhammer is doing the hard work for me (crossing the board). Admittedly a Anti-horde skyhammer would be quite powerful, I tend to feel most players will gear it the other way. Then Attempt to bring anti-horde/infantry another way. As mentioned, the strengths of this formation are getting your grav where its needed and getting the opponent on the backfoot.
As for my orks.... well if you can't beat em, join em!
This is feking bonkers man - I can't play this with my friends - they wont play me. Assaulting with 20 assualt marines turn 1 out of DS is GG for just about any army that isn't full IK.
I played a game on Monday with this formation against a Rhino heavy Ultramarine player and it went very well for me. I think he ended up conceding on Turn3? He had bad rolls and out of 3 drop pods and 4 (combat-squaded) ASMs squads, only 1 (out of 7) scattered. That being said, I don't think this was a true test of the formations strength.
I truly believe with a more competitive army, less luck on my dice, any army with intercepter, or a properly deployed army will be just fine against the formation.
To add on to my success, I will add that I went first and got off a 4", 5", 6", and 7" charges with all my ASMs. He did get 5 out of 6 5++ saves on his Contemptor Mortis though. I happened to charge it with my ASMs and finish him off though.
raiden wrote: This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.
My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.
biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.
I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.
How could you have such poor averages with 2 units of grav devs rerolling to hit and to wound? Each should kill a fly-rant easily after 2+ covers are removed. We are talking something close to 14 wounds each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saythings wrote: I played a game on Monday with this formation against a Rhino heavy Ultramarine player and it went very well for me. I think he ended up conceding on Turn3? He had bad rolls and out of 3 drop pods and 4 (combat-squaded) ASMs squads, only 1 (out of 7) scattered. That being said, I don't think this was a true test of the formations strength.
I truly believe with a more competitive army, less luck on my dice, any army with intercepter, or a properly deployed army will be just fine against the formation.
To add on to my success, I will add that I went first and got off a 4", 5", 6", and 7" charges with all my ASMs. He did get 5 out of 6 5++ saves on his Contemptor Mortis though. I happened to charge it with my ASMs and finish him off though.
Interceptor? Disagree - a few units with interceptor wont do squat against 40 power armor units in your face turn 1 or 2. Only army that has a ton of that is tau and tau are gonna get rekt by these assault marines even if both units of devs somehow got smoked (which isn't gonna happen ether). Really I don't see this formation doing bad vs anything. 40 Tl gravcannons and 60 str 4 CC attacks on turn 1 or 2 is going to do it's damage just about every time.
Well with the power hike on each new Decurion dex, i'd expect to see Tau return with some serious business. Necrons seemed strong, then there was scatbikes, then this formation, well lets see what tau brings to the table.
In general I believe GW are giving the dex's a significant power hike with the whole 'formations with special rules', so I imagine the tau are going to have some formidable shooting formations, and well intereceptor will definitely be around.
Xenomancers wrote: Assaulting with 20 assualt marines turn 1 out of DS is GG for just about any army that isn't full IK.
No it's not. I don't know what kind of SM 'dex you play where 20 assault marines charging on turn 1 is GG. I'm rather more scared of combined Ruststalker/Infiltrator/Ironstrider w/ lance T1 charges.
Interceptor? Disagree - a few units with interceptor wont do squat against 40 power armor units in your face turn 1 or 2. Only army that has a ton of that is tau and tau are gonna get rekt by these assault marines even if both units of devs somehow got smoked (which isn't gonna happen ether). Really I don't see this formation doing bad vs anything. 40 Tl gravcannons and 60 str 4 CC attacks on turn 1 or 2 is going to do it's damage just about every time.
Coteaz's "I've Been Expecting You" with a Plasma Obliterator. Bye-bye power armor.
gungo wrote: The rules for independent characters state they can't join unless the IC also has deepstrike for the assault marines at least. You can't just have non jump pack independent charscters appearing for no reason.
raiden wrote:This is again why I take tiggy. It's extremely unlikely I won't get perfect timing, omniscope dev cent will handily remove that pesky 2+ cover save provider, after which my grav devs will be removing about one tyrant or swarm lord w/ guards a turn each. 3+ cover or not. I didn't say I'd remove all of them T1, but I'd shorten the bubbles alot, and possibly get some out of range.
What nid list takes a single venomthrope or malanthrope, deploys in LoS of the rest of the board, and expects to keep 2+ cover save. Heck, forget tiggy just take a TFC and you will have just as good odds of removing the shrouded source.
Most nids player either take a couple of sources or a bastion to block LoS/stash the shrouded source in.
Admittedly tiggy is an extremely powerful IC that matches well with high damage units like grav devs.
raiden wrote:My assault marines move 12, then charge with fleet, I doubt I won't get a charge off.
Your assault marines move 12" after they DS? Are you aware that is illegal?
According to the brb the assault marines should DS with scatter and have to roll their charge without the benefit of any movement or even a run if they want to charge. They also need LoS to charge and cannot come into contact with any units in between. Assault marines charging out of DS is not easy.
raiden wrote:biker armies for orks are easier for the list than tide. I'm wounding your scariest unit on a 4+ now, with rerolls. Which, most likely can now be forced to GtG.
Ork biker armies get a built in 4+ (or 3+) cover save, are very hard for assault marines to handle in CC, tend to be extremely MSU, and one of the units can get a 2+ rerollable cover save. They also take up a lot of space and can swarm the board very effectively if allowed to go first. They also have enough range that they can bring the devs into assault within a turn or two and kill them. BTW bikes cannot GtG.
raiden wrote:I don't care if my assualt marines win or lose, their job is to do one of two things, tie up any shooting units I won't be targeting, or assaulting anything near by that won't easily wreck them in one assault phase, so as to keep them from charging on your turn. At this point -any- casualties my ASM cause are icing on my cake.
Why exactly are these ASM assumed to be able to always not scatter and make any charge distance through any intervening units into shooting units which would be the exact units that can be deployed in corners with less valuable units blocking the way to them? Most armies are forced to take units they consider a tax, sacrifice those to protect your valuable units.
Vaktathi wrote:The Grav weapons aren't actually all that bad against hordes. Against 5+sv models, the Grav Cannons are putting out more wounds than Heavy Bolters would, it's only against 6+sv models that they're truly bad, and, compared to every other Dev weapon option *but* Heavy Bolters, the Grav Weapons still do better against Hordes.
Grav + amps are definitely better than HBs against almost any target. The difference being that the grav has to be within 24" of the target and costs 25 pts more per gun. So for a unit of devs w/ 4 grav cannon you spend 210 pts whereas a dev unit w/ 4 HBs is 110 pts. Approximately half the cost and a significantly higher level of durability. 24" range puts your right in the range of the nastiest shooting in the game, like grav cannons
Vaktathi wrote:Either way, if you're using drop podding relentless Devastators against a Horde unit, you're probably doing something wrong , especially given how many other options SM's have for dealing with them, not the least of which being 2x flamer+assaulting Assault Marines that probably won't need to rely on the Dev's pinning mechanic to be effective.
Have you even DS 5 man units with flamers? You will be lucky to even touch the unit with your template on average, forget any significant casualties. In return you have to DS within ~15" of the unit to do anything next turn. That just happens to be within the range of movement + rapid fire for any unit and even to be assaulted by the more popular melee units.
Vaktathi wrote:And while the Grav weapons may not not terribly spectacular against a Knight, they're certainly not awful if the Knight doesn't put its shield to the Grav Devs, it's likely to lose 4 of its 6 HP's.
Actually if the knight doesn't put it's shield to a unit of grav devs with reroll to hit will deal 5.5 HP of damage. So it will always put it's shield toward a full unit of grav devs. With the shield it is only 2.7 HP per dev unit which is still pretty good but that ignores the fact that you spend 245 pts (w/ drop pod) for this unit and are now within 24" of an imperial knight that can kill off a significant portion of the dev unit in return. Assuming grav devs will get more than a single turn alive to deal damage is not a safe bet, so you better make a big splash.
Vaktathi wrote:On top of that they'll almost certainly kill any 2-3 HP vehicle (98% of the vehicles in the game) even if they're sporting a 4+ cover save
Yeah a full grav dev unit targeting most vehicles in the game are almost assured to kill it. However this is a 245 pts (w/ pod) unit that needs to be within 24" of the target. Most vehicles cost significantly less than 245 pts and most vehicles can kill enough devs to neuter them.
I am still trying to figure out whether the most optimal way to take this is with 10 devs to allow for combat squading the grav cannons but at the cost of drastically less efficient firepower or 5 man dev units to allow more firepower in the list but at the cost of less formation benefits and having to fire all the grav cannons at a single target.
Sorry your right, they don't move, (which I know, I just had a brain fart)
However, agianst horde type armies, it will be hard to -not- be in range of a charge, scatter or not. 1/3 of the time no scatter, and then usually less than 50% of the rest the scatter is not enough to worry about. I always go ballsy with my ASM because otherwise they are just wasted points. (Deepstrike no more than 6" away from a unit I want to charge)
Armies that run high power shooting lists tend to be smaller, and usually can't spare the units to "bubble wrap" all their other units effectively I'll shoot the ones I can't charge, charge the others. Etc. I'll even charge that imperial knight as my ASM have melta bomb Sgts.
Even with scatter, ASM squads with fleet are more likely to be able to assualt than not.
Most of the time if night fighting is a thing, I'll hold my army for turn two, if possible giving my oppent first turn. As my army is entirely null deploy.
Armies that run high power shooting lists tend to be smaller, and usually can't spare the units to "bubble wrap" all their other units effectively I'll shoot the ones I can't charge, charge the others. Etc. I'll even charge that imperial knight as my ASM have melta bomb Sgts.
Let's see. Tau - do you really want to face all that overwatch gak-storm from a bubblewrap? Eldar, they'll counter-null deploy and just fly around the table. Imperial Guard - one of the easiest armies to bubble wrap with conscripts.
One meltabomb won't kill a Knight reliably.
Come on, this formation is strong, but it's not OP and without counters.
Armies that run high power shooting lists tend to be smaller, and usually can't spare the units to "bubble wrap" all their other units effectively I'll shoot the ones I can't charge, charge the others. Etc. I'll even charge that imperial knight as my ASM have melta bomb Sgts.
Let's see. Tau - do you really want to face all that overwatch gak-storm from a bubblewrap? Eldar, they'll counter-null deploy and just fly around the table. Imperial Guard - one of the easiest armies to bubble wrap with conscripts.
One meltabomb won't kill a Knight reliably.
Come on, this formation is strong, but it's not OP and without counters.
It's easy, use the two 5 man bolter dev squads to force them to GtG or even if they pass make it so they can't fire overwatch.
I didn't say it would, but it could potentially finish one off after grav devs shooting.
True on the guard, but shooting doesn't care.
I agree, their are lists that can fight this list, but you can take two of these formations at 1500. One with grav, one with multi-melta or HB or w/e
raiden wrote:Sorry your right, they don't move, (which I know, I just had a brain fart)
No problem bud. I make my share of mistakes too. Way too many of them in fact.
raiden wrote:However, agianst horde type armies, it will be hard to -not- be in range of a charge, scatter or not. 1/3 of the time no scatter, and then usually less than 50% of the rest the scatter is not enough to worry about. I always go ballsy with my ASM because otherwise they are just wasted points. (Deepstrike no more than 6" away from a unit I want to charge)
Even a DS at 6" away leaves you only able to kill models with the flamers within 8" of the unit. So against most horde targets that is 2-3 models if you are lucky. The problem with 6" DS is that you scatter 6"+ toward the opponent ~16% of the time, you scatter 6"+ away from the target ~24% of the time. This means ~40% of the time you either mishap or scatter out of charge range. The remainder of the time you will fail your charges about ~20% of the times (ie failed charges 6-12" from the target, I ignored the possibility of failing a 5" and less charge). This gives an overall chance to not make the charge on the order of ~60%. Which is the majority of the time.
raiden wrote:Armies that run high power shooting lists tend to be smaller, and usually can't spare the units to "bubble wrap" all their other units effectively I'll shoot the ones I can't charge, charge the others. Etc. I'll even charge that imperial knight as my ASM have melta bomb Sgts.
You are looking at bubble wrap the wrong way. Bubble wrap doesn't have to be cheap units just units that are disposable. The thing about a SM army with this formation is that grav cannon devs are extremely expensive.
The setup I think of when I think of this formation is;
Skyhammer Annhilation Force (860pts)
Assault Squad (100pts); Jump Packs, 4x Marines w/ 2x Flamer + Sarge w/ Meltabombs
Assault Squad (100pts); Jump Packs, 4x Marines w/ 2x Flamer + Sarge w/ Meltabombs
Devastator Squad (330pts); Drop Pod, 9x Marines w/ 4x Grav-cannon + Sarge w/ Meltabombs and Combi-Grav
Devastator Squad (330pts); Drop Pod, 9x Marines w/ 4x Grav-cannon + Sarge w/ Meltabombs and Combi-Grav
This setup is the best results against the largest variety of armies however it is also a lot of pts for 30 MEQ bodies that all have to be within 24" of an enemy to do anything, 490 pts of which is on 10 MEQ bodies which need to be within 24" and in LoS to shoot effectively. That is what is getting lost on a lot of people. If this formation comes down and only kills 2 rhinos and ties up 4 units of 5 TAC marines then the return damage to this formation is going to eliminate ~660 pts with little to no trouble.
It would be entirely viable to bubble wrap with an expensive anti tank unit if you your opponent doesn't bring any tanks. Just choose whatever is the least useful and put it between where DSers have to DS and your valuable units you need. Even if the grav devs shoot the unit to death you can still buy 4"+ of additional charge distance the assault marines would have to make.
raiden wrote:Even with scatter, ASM squads with fleet are more likely to be able to assualt than not.
Please see above. Once you get to 9" even reroll will leave you failing charges more often than not.
raiden wrote:Most of the time if night fighting is a thing, I'll hold my army for turn two, if possible giving my oppent first turn. As my army is entirely null deploy.
There is definitely positives and negatives to that. It really depends on what you have to hold the fort and what the opponent brings. Against a psychic deathstar that is quite likely to loose you the game. Additionally a CWE scatbike + wraithknight could actually spread the bikes out enough to block DSing within 24" of the wraithknight by turn 2. In fact many armies can with the correct dispersion pattern occupy enough of the board to leave your DSing skyhammer without valuable targets. Against an opponent that tries to null deploy this could be valuable assuming you go second.
raiden wrote:It's easy, use the two 5 man bolter dev squads to force them to GtG or even if they pass make it so they can't fire overwatch.
Actually this doesn't necessarily function against Tau like you think. You can stop 4 of the tau units from firing over watch but all the other units within the bubble still get to shoot.
raiden wrote:I agree, their are lists that can fight this list, but you can take two of these formations at 1500. One with grav, one with multi-melta or HB or w/e
IMO this formation alongside a well designed white scars biker or scouts SMCAD could be a top tier or nearly so army. More than one of these formations is an extreme build that will only really beat up on players who don't know the strategies to deal with the tricks this brings, ie DS and assault. This army can be largely counter with simple strategy and model placement.
Enigwolf wrote:Come on, this formation is strong, but it's not OP and without counters.
I agree. This is another all too common case of sky is falling reaction. I will have to update my extreme alpha strike thread with tactics for and against this formation. The turn 2 DS and possible assaults are a somewhat unique strategic exercise.
As an Ork player, I wouldn't play against this. Why waste 30 - 45 minutes setting up terrain, choosing a mission and deploying my army just to have my forces crippled in the first turn and then start packing everything back up? This reminds me of when turn 1 kills were common in Magic the Gathering. Shuffle, draw, opponent takes turn and game over before you get to play a single card. The only difference is you can do it every game in 40k because you don't have to draw randomly and instead of wasting 2 minutes, I wasted a half hour.
Why do Orks have one lousy formation that (sometimes) allows a few extra S3 hits when charging and Marines get about a dozen that grant a ton of powerful abilities?
I just watched a veteran Tau player concede to a Skyhammer list at the top of turn one during the assault phase.
1850 points, the Skyhammer player pinned three Tau units and locked up two units of Broadsides in assault, swept his Pathfinders, and controlled the board. And that was with one of the assault squads getting decimated with interceptor (then fail charging) and another one losing a couple men. The Broadsides were going to be locked in CC for the rest of the game. Both Crisis suit units were pinned, the pathfinders were pinned (then wiped in assault), and his vehicles were jinking. His Riptide was castled in safely and some Suits were in reserve, maybe a couple more free while castled in, but there was no reason to play at that point. Victory, top of turn one.
The kicker was that the space marine player also had two other Drop Pods from outside the formation come in with a bunch more stuff. There were like ten units on top of the Tau army and there simply isn't a mechanic to counter it. Interceptor doesn't mean squat when there are such a huge number of units. Neither does overwatch when things get basically auto-pinned.
How did the Intercepting Large Blast Riptides not wipe the Assault marines and the Broadsides not interceptor the leftovers or the 4 Grav Devs. I get the formation can bring the heat, but I don't see how the Tau player got crapped on so hard. Fire Warriors or Kroot bubble wrapping Broadsides is a thing. His vehicles that jinked dont need models in it, if the entire army needs to do work on Turn1.
Survival is most important and it's not that hard when you play with proper terrain and correct deployment (Nova terrain in mind).
What's his full SM list or Tau's for that matter. Multiple TFCs is 200-300, the formation is at least 950, and thats only 10 Devs (with Grav) and 20 ASMs. If you want combat squaded Devs, you need another 140. Then you need 3 more pods in order to had 2 additional Turn1. That's another 300-500 if you're going to fill them with something worth while. Add tacticals (or they might be in the ones in the pods) and it's a full list. But Tacs are tacs. I don't see them as scary for tau with all their 2+.
niv-mizzet wrote: Yeah I don't see this doing much to the typical ork army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tau gun line, however, as above, seems like fish in a barrel for it. (Haw haw I make fish joke. Is good!)
The guy couldn't even castle up much because there were multiple TFCs on the board. It was the dumbest match of 40k I've seen in my life.
Yea......you dont castle against an army like this, Thats what they want, once the alpha strike is gone over half of his army is just a sitting duck with no mobility. You need to take advantage of your range and either deploy in separate corners, reserve everything, etc.
Also I have never seen a tau army without enough interceptor to kill all the grav marines....cant blame power on army comp issues.
I'm glad tau are getting stomped now. That list sounds like tau cheese anyway. I don't feel sorry for tau/necron/eldar cheese players.that get leaf blowered off the board. Taste of their own medicine
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can purchase a 3rd drop pod as a fast attack slot with out pputting anything in it.
Saythings wrote: How did the Intercepting Large Blast Riptides not wipe the Assault marines and the Broadsides not interceptor the leftovers or the 4 Grav Devs. I get the formation can bring the heat, but I don't see how the Tau player got crapped on so hard. Fire Warriors or Kroot bubble wrapping Broadsides is a thing. His vehicles that jinked dont need models in it, if the entire army needs to do work on Turn1.
Survival is most important and it's not that hard when you play with proper terrain and correct deployment (Nova terrain in mind).
What's his full SM list or Tau's for that matter. Multiple TFCs is 200-300, the formation is at least 950, and thats only 10 Devs (with Grav) and 20 ASMs. If you want combat squaded Devs, you need another 140. Then you need 3 more pods in order to had 2 additional Turn1. That's another 300-500 if you're going to fill them with something worth while. Add tacticals (or they might be in the ones in the pods) and it's a full list. But Tacs are tacs. I don't see them as scary for tau with all their 2+.
TL;DR - I'd like to know more
The Riptide's interceptor left one assault marine squad with just one marine and the broadsides intercepted some of the devs but again failed to kill them all. And since the Devs in this formation just need to look at something to pin it, leaving even one alive is a huge problem.
Everything in the Skyhammer was combat squaded, plus two more pods in addition to that dropped, both carring a bunch of Melta. There were simply a huge number of targets.
The Tau player bubble wrapped with pathfinders and some Fire Warriors, he had no Kroot. But since there were three TFCs it was carnage. Some big unit of either pathfinders or Fire warriors got pinned which triggered the assault marines to not take overwatch and reroll everything, wiped.
And yes, Tacs hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's is frightening to all Tau that's not 2+.
Also the Devs didn't even have grav, they had plasma and lascannons.
AdMech won, BTW, by a combination of counter-part-null deploying and scattering his forces all over the board. The latter seems to be the solution to this formation - defeat the inherent synergies of the Skyhammer formation by spreading out.
Coteaz ftw here with good deployment. Think I may have to throw him into my centstar if this becomes popular and bubble wrap in a perimeter around the star so they they can either drop inside the perimeter and get a full load of shots from the centstar or deepstrike too far away
raiden wrote: ^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.
I'm thinking of running:
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Ignores Cover Hat that rerolls misses.
Plasma Oblit
In an upcoming tournament.
You know, a lot of people seem to be passing over this in agreement, but I was under the understanding that to fire an emplaced weapon you had to be embarked in the building. Note that there is indeed an often overlooked difference between an "emplaced weapon" and a "weapon emplacement". They have different rules. That being the case, isn't the plasma oblit an impassable building, and thus not able to be manual fired?
Fine for Devs, But the ASM, if your attempting a turn 1 charge, or simply the DS charge then with positioning it wouldn't be hard to basically make it impossible to charge without landing within the 12".
I suppose it depends where coteaz is, but I doubt he'll have line of sight if an army is packed tightly around him within 12". I've used him for a long time, and even if he has a big wide area to stand in to get a view, it's likely there will be a good gap than an enemy can land in.
It's good to protect something you don't want to get into hand to hand, I suppose, but since it has to be within 12" of Coteaz, not his unit...
Crazyterran wrote: I suppose it depends where coteaz is, but I doubt he'll have line of sight if an army is packed tightly around him within 12". I've used him for a long time, and even if he has a big wide area to stand in to get a view, it's likely there will be a good gap than an enemy can land in.
It's good to protect something you don't want to get into hand to hand, I suppose, but since it has to be within 12" of Coteaz, not his unit...
I used to play castle tactics with Tau+Grey Knights in 6th, trust me, it's not hard to castle into a corner and make it difficult for your opponent to get an early charge in or counter a drop pod army (looking at you drop pod sternguard...)
raiden wrote: ^ the only thing I've seen ran with the plasma oblit is the assassin for the ignores cover plasma blast and almost no scatter chance.
I'm thinking of running:
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Ignores Cover Hat that rerolls misses.
Plasma Oblit
In an upcoming tournament.
You know, a lot of people seem to be passing over this in agreement, but I was under the understanding that to fire an emplaced weapon you had to be embarked in the building. Note that there is indeed an often overlooked difference between an "emplaced weapon" and a "weapon emplacement". They have different rules. That being the case, isn't the plasma oblit an impassable building, and thus not able to be manual fired?
Anyone able to weigh in on this? If I'm incorrect, I'd love to know how. This was previously pointed out to me, and I was unable to find a way to refute their argument without equating "emplaced weapon" to "weapon emplacement". While, in the english language the two seem interchangeable, it certainly seems that they are NOT from a rules standpoint.
Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Fluff wise I love it, this formation is how I envision a Space Marine invasion!
CKO wrote: Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Fluff wise I love it, this formation is how I envision a Space Marine invasion!
After running against this a handful of times now, and running it once myself, I'm convinced the strongest use of the Sky Hammer is turn 2. Turn 1, it's just an alpha strike, from an army that doesn't do much else as an alpha strike. Waiting until turn 2, you'll be able to bring the hammer down while the rest of the marine army is following close at hand.
For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.
pretre wrote: Plasma oblit is a medium building, so you can embark and fire it.
If there're battlements, can you sit on them and fire the emplaced weapon? Technically that both gives you LoS and counts as being embarked.
You don't have battlements. You don't need them though. You use LOS of the weapon for shooting AND the plasma oblit has fire points for other models to shoot. It is quite easy to draw LOS with the plasma oblit itself, although the FP leave something to be desired on the model for shooting other stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote: For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Tau and Orks aren't really tournament competitive, so they're not really a concern for Skyhammer.
Unless there's an entire meta shift.
LOL every tournamnet I've ever played in the last decade there have always been Ork spoilers who may never win but sure as heck prevent you from getting mad points.
HawaiiMatt wrote: For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
If that is list you want sounds more like the Spear of Sicarius would be what you want. And it is all drop pods land on Turn one. 112marines, 13 pods and Dreadnoughts, it is an ugly formation between stubborn, Fiery Arrival and Tip of the Spear. I think it gets the best of the a Gladius Company with the perks of Skyhammer.
pretre wrote: Plasma oblit is a medium building, so you can embark and fire it.
If there're battlements, can you sit on them and fire the emplaced weapon? Technically that both gives you LoS and counts as being embarked.
You don't have battlements. You don't need them though. You use LOS of the weapon for shooting AND the plasma oblit has fire points for other models to shoot. It is quite easy to draw LOS with the plasma oblit itself, although the FP leave something to be desired on the model for shooting other stuff.
Yeah... I was just about to post that. Picked up my Plasma Oblit today and saw the rules.
CKO wrote: Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.
CKO wrote: Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.
Grav shots in drop pods have been in use for awhile now, and assault squads are not that scary in cc. Do not get me wrong this formation is easily top three if not flat out number one and will change the meta a little, there will be more transports now for sure. but Its not last edition wave serpent spam strong. This formation still requires effort to win but, Tau have 12 str 7 bs 5 ignore cover shots or large blast ap 2 templates with ignore cover , Tau alpha strike is still strong.
CKO wrote: Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.
Grav shots in drop pods have been in use for awhile now,
Not with anything near that volume, particularly at up to four different targets.
and assault squads are not that scary in cc.
Usually because they get shot to pieces crossing the board , and now they can also pack Eviscerators, giving additional S8 AP2 attacks on top of a powerfist or other powerweapon.
Do not get me wrong this formation is easily top three if not flat out number one and will change the meta a little, there will be more transports now for sure. but Its not last edition wave serpent spam strong. This formation still requires effort to win but, Tau have 12 str 7 bs 5 ignore cover shots or large blast ap 2 templates with ignore cover , Tau alpha strike is still strong.
Tau alpha strike can be strong, but that's not going to hurt into heavy armor much or put much scare into something like a Wraithknight, and it's a whole lot less volume than 40 Grav Cannon shots at up to four different targets. The ability to come in, have the grav cannons go to town on the scary things or vehicles, and have the assault marines mop up disembarked infantry, vehicles, or other units, is far more capable and scarier than anything I could think of in a typical Tau turn-1 alpha strike.
At least the opponent has to tell you what turn it is coming in. No waiting to decide till its most advantageous. He has to declare at the start of the game.
LOL every tournamnet I've ever played in the last decade there have always been Ork spoilers who may never win but sure as heck prevent you from getting mad points.
Source: I'm one of those Ork players
So true, last tourney I took my first draw in 10 games to a Green Tide list with gazzy and 100 boyz. I killed them all in the end but ran out of time
I see Skyhammer more of a utility formation than anything else. The assault component is there to tie up things that you don't want to shoot and kill vehicles, which have big problems getting away from first turn assaults; The devastator component is there to pin what you can't kill and kill what you can't pin. Their actual combat power isn't new or insurmountable (drop grav centurions have been around for a while) but they provide a reliable, turn one alpha-strike to base an army around.
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.
70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...
Razerous wrote: Is there not a cause for using multi-meltas with one of the dev squads?
In addition, mitigate the loss of grav by using combi-weapons to make use of that relentless rule.
The meltas can tackle the hard problem units or odd psuedo-units with poor saves (umm?),,, whilst saving you a very reasonable chunk of points.
The Grav's typically are just too versatile, they're the auto-include for a take-all-comers army. Unless you're have nothing to shoot at but 6+sv infantry (which is a waste of Dev's no matter what), the Grav weapons are simply flat out better than all the other choices no matter what your target. The big advantage the MM's have is that they can make use of the damage table to explode stuff or inflict additional HP damage on superheavies, but the Grav weapons inflict much more raw initial HP damage (enough so that two full squads combat squatted and engaging four 3HP vehicle targets should kill them all on average) and a much higher average number of HP's against targets you'd really want to use MM's against.
True, they do, but that 200pts buys a whole lot of firepower and flexibility against a much greater array of armies and target units that would be difficult to replicate at the same level of effectiveness elsewhere.
The additional 200 pts is not going to be worth it if the grav devs end up being just one hit wonder. If they get charged or shot to death the next turn due to their close proximity there goes a lot of points
SonsofVulkan wrote: The additional 200 pts is not going to be worth it if the grav devs end up being just one hit wonder. If they get charged or shot to death the next turn due to their close proximity there goes a lot of points
Between the ability to put 40 Grav Cannon shots that reroll failed wounds/vehicle pen and any additional bolter fire at up to four different targets, coupled with the support of the Assault Squads, really you either should have already killed a whole lore more than what the Dev's were worth, or neutralized the most immediate threats to them.
Especially when Relentless allows you to use that 24" range on the Grav Cannons to full effect, with a much larger number of effective potential landing areas than you'd otherwise have with something like meltaguns. Even dropping at the edge of your own deployment zone, disembarking 6" and shooting up to 24" should allow you to hit most targets while being relatively safe from immediate counterassault or enemy double-tap range.
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.
70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...
The whirlwind speeder formation requires 2+ whirlwinds. So, replace 3x5 scouts.
That said, it's 70 marines in power armor, 2 characters, 15 scouts, 2 drop pods and 10 razorbacks (with twin-linked assault cannons).
I find most armies struggle to engage 31 units at 1850 (12 of which are obj sec, and half have hit and run).
Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.
Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.
70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...
The whirlwind speeder formation requires 2+ whirlwinds. So, replace 3x5 scouts.
That said, it's 70 marines in power armor, 2 characters, 15 scouts, 2 drop pods and 10 razorbacks (with twin-linked assault cannons).
I find most armies struggle to engage 31 units at 1850 (12 of which are obj sec, and half have hit and run).
The thing is, there are things in your army that are blatantly a threat, if I engage and best those units, its usually just mop up duty thereafter.
Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written
Son_of_corax wrote: Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written
Son_of_corax wrote: Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written
As said, nothing new,
You simply run a cad or other detachment and put the IC with them
Martel732 wrote: Maybe they should have explicitly stated it then.
It's common sense that they can't as it changes the formation. Plus it does say it in the formations and codex.
Always been the case with any formation
It's a fair point, relying purely on "common sense" in a wargame and not addressing potential rules issues is cause for problems. What's "common sense" to one person isn't to another, there can be different methods of interpretation that may be equally valid. It's always best to have things explicitly stated, and a lot of other wargames handle this much better.
Vaktathi wrote: It's a fair point, relying purely on "common sense" in a wargame and not addressing potential rules issues is cause for problems. What's "common sense" to one person isn't to another, there can be different methods of interpretation that may be equally valid. It's always best to have things explicitly stated, and a lot of other wargames handle this much better.
Vaktathi wrote: It's a fair point, relying purely on "common sense" in a wargame and not addressing potential rules issues is cause for problems. What's "common sense" to one person isn't to another, there can be different methods of interpretation that may be equally valid. It's always best to have things explicitly stated, and a lot of other wargames handle this much better.
That's why common sense doesn't exist.
This is a null point anyway as it clearly says in the codex how a formation works and shows you.
So sorry if a person can't understand that 40k might be too complex for them.
As I said it's been the same for 8 or so years since apocalypse came out.
So this is hardly Virgin territory
Plus the formation says so as there are no Ics or characters listed in it so ergo they can't join it until it's deployed
It isn't clear. That's why there's a huge YMDC thread on it. Hey, a thread on this topic already. Take a look at the discussion there (before it was locked)
pretre wrote: It isn't clear. That's why there's a huge YMDC thread on it. Hey, a thread on this topic already. Take a look at the discussion there (before it was locked)
Son_of_corax wrote: quote=Son_of_corax 652366 7925380 null]Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store
No it's the actually companies stance on formations
no, its the one red shirt's opinion on the matter that you called, not even close to official gw word.
Take your YMDC discussion to YMDC out of tactics forum please.
back on topic here,
skyhammer seems like it is actually a better msu/infantry killer then an anti mosterous/tank to me anyways.
with the ability to pin up to 4 units for a turn, and charge 4 more, you can tie up and stall those kinds of armies (ironically, really good vs say 2 demi companies)
pretre wrote: It isn't clear. That's why there's a huge YMDC thread on it. Hey, a thread on this topic already. Take a look at the discussion there (before it was locked)
Accolade wrote: Oh I think it's a terrible trend too and hope it doesn't come to pass. However, it seems my hopes are always dashed with GW. As it has been said many times before with GW, "hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
Could do it in a classier way, something like quarterly digital compendiums featuring some type of faq for older codecii to bring them in line with newer, and some new formations. Would probably sell fairly well as a non-digital release as well and since it covers all armies you'd have a wide base of players that will buy it...
This way they can ease up slightly on the codex release pace since they have an alternate way of driving sales to older armies, and people would genuinely like this i think... if something is super clearly broken at least it will only be for 3 months not 3 years.
Can't really see a downside to this, they could still manage quite a few regular codex updates i would think.
(Actually, he wouldn't even need this formation, just anything that doesn't put too much on the table the turn you drop, but would have a chance to wipe you out if you didn't drop turn 1.)
Not exactly removing all the synapse sources in pretty much any nid list.
But I suppose that's why 
