so, unlike the last release (Eldar) where some just wanted to outright ban them from events (lol) how about discussing your army counters to this OP formation?
Can we assume full sized dev sqds/ass sqds? Loadouts?

so what can you do?

Interceptor, reserve manipulation, having units also arrive on first turn and try to go second (not sure when the Skyhammer player declares what turn they arrive), durability such as improving cover saves, having lots of chaffe, go first and get psychic buffs up (Invis, Shrouding for example).

It is hard to come up with specifics for every army and every possibility, but those are some general ideas.

For my Eldar, Invisibility and Shrouding are key along for units starting on the board if I am going first. An Autarch is nearly an auto take in my lists for reserve manipulation as I am trying to get the counter punch as my opponent likely has @half his army wrapped up in this formation.

I don't think that we can assume full-size Devastator squads. Assault Squads will probably be full-size though. Depending on the number of upgrades, this formation is hardly cheap. Not that it makes it any less overpowered.

As I posted in the thread in General Discussion before it was locked, this formation has only two real weaknesses:

1. Deep Strike unreliability. The assault squads still scatter, which means a potential mishap and/or moving out of charge range. The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

2. Ye olde MSU. The dev squads can only shoot at two units, and depending on their size the assault squads can only charge two units. With enough units spread across the table, only a portion of the army can be affected by the formation. Null deployment shenanigans also should work well.

That's the problem with this formation: you can't directly counter it (unless you're Tau/Coteaz). It simply kills whatever it comes into contact with; it's a deathstar that can be in multiple places at the same time. Fortunately, if their ruling on the Blood Angels formation is anything to go by, the ITC will say NOPE to assaulting after Deep-Striking. That would go a long way in toning the formation down; the lack of overwatch for passing 3d6 leadership isn't as big a deal, and the assault squads have to eat a turn of fire.

I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

MSU won't work as they can just combat squad on deployment and MSU your MSU. Having 4-8 units severly damaged in one turn even hurts MSU. Also you won't have enough left in a unit to take on the marines after eating overwatch.

Take the wall of martyrs defense line. Take 3 bunkers each with an escape hatch. Place escape hatches 12" away. If the opponent pops the bunkers, you can either exit from the bunker or from the escape hatch. Which ever doesn't put you in danger of the assault squads.

This does however eat up 360pts of non-offensive terrain that won't make its points back, just to counter it.

I guess I should have been clearer, I meant what your particular army would plan to do, not hypothetical counters for all armies in general. Let's say you are going to a small event and know one of the players is bringing this formation but you also have other players in the event. What are you going to take that will not only counter this but also have it's utilities vs other armies?

Wall of Martyrs is a good answer. Bunkers/buildings are immune to grav, which is what I'm betting at least half of the devs would show up with. Combined with some reserve roll help, you might be able to organize a solid counter strike after the marines are on the ground.

How would the assault squads fair against tougher units? To me, the weak link in the formation is units that the assault squads cannot take out.

my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Guard/Skitarii/counts as navy armsmen:

Massive blob squads going to ground behind an aegis with a commissar or inquisitor mitigates the grav/pinning nastiness. Not sure how to deal with the assault marines in this case; allied combat characters/units in the form of marines or inquisitors might be ok.

The assault squads are scary and turn 1 DS then assault is making me think mech starting in vehicles is a passable solution. They charge, pop the vehicle, then the occupants run away and flame/demo charge/plasma the assaulting marines. This is dicey since the marines can combat squad and pop 4 transports in a turn (if they only take one of these...) and the devs have a decent shot at opening up transports depending on their equipment.

Skitarii/scion/IG veteran airforce with T1 rangers/platoon/scions in comms bunkers is another potential route. 9 vendettas with skitarii/scions in them will wreck house if the points can be cajoled into working and should be able to keep grav devs and assault marines honest.

I'm actually excited about this development. Marines falling out of the sky and wrecking house is where it's at! Maelstrom may help out too; forcing combat squad-ing and making the assault marines choose between objective grabbing and charging things.

Any news on ObSec? If not, this is a lot of points tied up in units that can be denied pretty easily.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Fortunately, if their ruling on the Blood Angels formation is anything to go by, the ITC will say NOPE to assaulting after Deep-Striking. That would go a long way in toning the formation down; the lack of overwatch for passing 3d6 leadership isn't as big a deal, and the assault squads have to eat a turn of fire.

I do not believe the ITC ruling on the Angel's Spearhead Formation will set a precedent for the Skyhammer, as the rules/mechanics that allow for the assault after deepstrike are not the same.

The ITC ruling (on the Angel's Spearhead formation) makes it impossible for a 1st turn deep strike because the Locator Beacons have to be on the table for a turn in order to utilize the Augur Triangulation special rule. A 2nd turn assault after a 2nd turn deep strike is still possible as long as the Angel's Spearhead formation arrived 1st turn.

The Skyhammer formation just says in plain english that the Assault squads can assault the turn they deep strike. Unsure how or why they'd rule against it, unless they just want to see people keep their assault marines on the shelves, buried in a layer of dust.

It's a tough formation but it's still a lot of points.
You can't take this formation twice in most tournaments.
And assault Squads still scatter badly.
I also find devastators and assault Squads usually have different targets.
This is by far the best formation in this codex imho and will cause a lot of damage but eat up a good chunk of points too. However I fully expect this to be the Most popular formation in tournaments. I hope tournaments start tracking formations just so we can analyze this data.

The gladius formation takes up most or all of an 1850 list when you give them enough weapons to do anything and still are hard countered by mid str ap3 spam. Large blast ap3 pie plates would have fun against a gladius. Also the gladius is not legal in any tournament that doesn't allow multiple of the same formation which is most in the U.S.

I was initially on the "this formation rules them all" train, but after some thought it's just "really good". Units in cover, or with good cover saves, will withstand the devastators' fire. Assault squads, while decent, are not the most bomb-diggity thing in the world either. Best counters are:

1. Sit in cover, behind an ADL, or in a building/bunker. The ADL and ruins are my personal recommendations.

2. All-drop pod armies, force you to go first, beat you to the alpha strike. And yes I know the opponent can choose to come in second, but by then much of the damage has been done.

3. MSU armies. Use your 300 pts of Grav Devs to kill my 70 pt unit. Dang.

4. Hordes. An Ork or Tyranid Horde cares not for your silly Grav, and welcomes you into assault.

Dunno about Tyranids, but Orks will get shredded en masse by flamers and assault marines. Without the charge we're little better than guardsmen.

Primary Ork counter seems to be spam MSU Gretchin all over the place as a buffer. No point going for large squads as they can handle maybe 1 Assault Marine in CC no matter how many you have, the rest are just sweep fodder.

No interceptor and gak here nosiree

Doing the same thing as before. Not playing it. If I play it in a tournament, I guess I stick coteaz with a unit in ruins and hope for the best.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Dunno about Tyranids, but Orks will get shredded en masse by flamers and assault marines. Without the charge we're little better than guardsmen.

Primary Ork counter seems to be spam MSU Gretchin all over the place as a buffer. No point going for large squads as they can handle maybe 1 Assault Marine in CC no matter how many you have, the rest are just sweep fodder.

No interceptor and gak here nosiree

That'd be a pretty ballsy DS to be in flamer range. Green Tide would absolutely love for this formation to come down and assault it. Turn one, kill all the assault marines who were foolish enough to charge the Tide. Consolidate toward the Devastators. Turn 2, charge the Devastators and kill them as well.

8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

You're assuming the assault marines can both shoot the 6 closest orcs to death and also get the charge off? To pull that one off they'd have had to deep strike pretty close and not scatter.

I think the best option for orks is to deploy as spread out as possible meaning that if the enemy takes a chunk out of their force, it also makes it hard to charge, etc. At max spread it takes 12 infantry models to fill a square foot of deployment zone. Considering you can leave gaps too small for a drop pod to fall into or a bunch of guys to drop into without mishapping, any army with 50+ models should be able to deny their entire deployment zone to the enemy, forcing them to only be able to charge whatever you put in front. And you'll only get shot from the front, which means that if you put an Aegis line across the front of your zone, anyone there can GtG for 2+ cover. This means the devs will likely drop near the part of your zone not covered by the defense line.

Mavnas wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.

I wouldn't expect the grav weapons to target my harlies....either the wraith units or harlie vehicles/bikes.

So actually, based on this:

I'm thinking a Stormlord, bubblewrapped by conscripts hiding behind an ADL would be one possible answer.

The devs wouldn't get into melta range. Your tank would fire off 30 S6AP3 shots the turn after they land split across two squads. Anyone important would be inside the tank.

Your platoon could actually be split into 10 man squads lined up one in front of the other, making it hard to multi-charge them and increasing the likelyhood that the assault squads won't be engaged when it's time to shoot them. (Actually, there's a relic that lets you choose whether to pass/fail morale... so yeah!)

Now the only thing is you have to get your tank some sort of save. 5+ for intervening models should do (Do you get a 4+ cover if he shoot across the ADL). Otherwise your opponent might get lucky with his 40 grav shots.

My crons like deathmarks in 5 man squads they drop in i drop in and shoot them first with rapid fire precision shot sniper rifles that wound on 2's, there extreamly good at reducing podded troops out put. If in a duricon i coukd take upto 9 units of these.( not that i own that many myself .ive got 18.)

 bullyboy wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.

I wouldn't expect the grav weapons to target my harlies....either the wraith units or harlie vehicles/bikes.

Also since for the most part any model concussed by the grav weapons would also be dead I think you can still reliably count on going first.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I do not believe the ITC ruling on the Angel's Spearhead Formation will set a precedent for the Skyhammer, as the rules/mechanics that allow for the assault after deepstrike are not the same.

The ITC ruling (on the Angel's Spearhead formation) makes it impossible for a 1st turn deep strike because the Locator Beacons have to be on the table for a turn in order to utilize the Augur Triangulation special rule. A 2nd turn assault after a 2nd turn deep strike is still possible as long as the Angel's Spearhead formation arrived 1st turn.

The Skyhammer formation just says in plain english that the Assault squads can assault the turn they deep strike. Unsure how or why they'd rule against it, unless they just want to see people keep their assault marines on the shelves, buried in a layer of dust.

Not to derail the thread too much but that is incorrect. You don't use the Locator Beacons themselves. The rule is only concerned with the position of the Tactical Sergeants. They ruled the way they did expressly because they said it was a combination of their interpretation of RAI and that being charged first turn from deep strike isn't fun and it might turn new tournament goers away.

Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

Allied Sang Priest with Angel's Wing.

 pretre wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

Allied Sang Priest with Angel's Wing.

Then they can't charge :(

Not touching that debate with a ten foot pole.

Dont you need s copy of the formation rules though? All sold out on the website.

If someone expects me to pay for that formation in order to use it they can go to Hell.

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

Bahaha you shut him down. I also noticed he didn't factor in fnp. Nor did he factor in possibility of kff or mff. Or as you said, void. This guy, thinking marines actually beat our orkz. No ideaz he has.

Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Okapi wrote:
Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

A grav shot has an 8/9th chance to hit (assume rerolls on that first turn from the cherub), 11/36ths chance to immobilize (grav amp reroll) 1/2 chance to bypass jink. So we're looking at: 7.36 average shots to do damage. 22 shots on average should be 3 damage results. Is the barge immune to immobilize?

Granted if you can get 8 grav cannons to focus on a single target, that's a win.

My Guard army already had Coteaz sitting in a blob of 50 Guardsmen. So. That worked out.

Mavnas wrote:
A grav shot has an 8/9th chance to hit (assume rerolls on that first turn from the cherub), 11/36ths chance to immobilize (grav amp reroll) 1/2 chance to bypass jink. So we're looking at: 7.36 average shots to do damage. 22 shots on average should be 3 damage results. Is the barge immune to immobilize?

Granted if you can get 8 grav cannons to focus on a single target, that's a win.

It's immune to immobilized, yes, downgrading it to stunned, which it's also immune to. What cherub?

For 5 points they buy an upgrade that lets them re-roll to hit one turn per game. I imagine devs trying to do a massive alpha strike would use it turn 1.

But really going from 2/3 -> 8/9th is minor compared to the grav amp rerolls on the pen roll which nearly doubles the effectiveness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav amps are the things that make Grav Cannons so much better than grav guns, because things that would be awful targets for the guns, are mediocre targets for the cannons.

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Even with that though, they'll still need all 24 shots to take down the Barge.

Looks like wraiths just got better. They're not going to care about getting shot at by long range dev squads nor will they care about being assaulted by girls wearing blue dresses... if I had to face this formation I'd be CADding up three max'd units of wraiths and killing marines as usual.

Another fun counter would be Striking Scorpions in cover. 2+ save, so near grav-immunity, 3+ save, so well protected against flamers, decent overwatch with potential AP2, and should wipe the floor with Assault Marines in close combat. Sit there for a turn, wait for the pods to drop, and bring on the scatter lasers, d-scythes and psychic shrieks after the alpha strike.

Okapi, the Devs get relentless on the turn they arrive, so that'd be 40 shots, not 24.

Also, with UM CT they'll re-roll to hit.

Add a character with an auspex, and your Scorpions are pretty screwed too.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

You are right, I completely missed fnp and fearless, which both dramatically affect the maths. So it seems green tide need not be so worried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

Bahaha you shut him down. I also noticed he didn't factor in fnp. Nor did he factor in possibility of kff or mff. Or as you said, void. This guy, thinking marines actually beat our orkz. No ideaz he has.

Wow. Constructive...

This far in my Guard army is just dreading this (Its based off WW2 British and Wheremacht units and organisation). So far I have pretty much blobbed my tanks into a core and bubble wrapped them with veteran squads. (No demolitions sadly - I still need to acquire some Engineers for each side)
The Infantry absorb the worst of the attacks and then the tanks give everything they've got. Its a risky move but in all honesty its the best one I have. With a bit of luck I will be able to kill enough to allow my surviving Infantry to weather the storm on the next turn and my tanks the chance to survive the inevitable shitstorm of AT fire that will be coming there way.

 master of ordinance wrote:
This far in my Guard army is just dreading this (Its based off WW2 British and Wheremacht units and organisation). So far I have pretty much blobbed my tanks into a core and bubble wrapped them with veteran squads. (No demolitions sadly - I still need to acquire some Engineers for each side)
The Infantry absorb the worst of the attacks and then the tanks give everything they've got. Its a risky move but in all honesty its the best one I have. With a bit of luck I will be able to kill enough to allow my surviving Infantry to weather the storm on the next turn and my tanks the chance to survive the inevitable shitstorm of AT fire that will be coming there way.

Actually I think MSU guard/hoard armies are the way forward. What does it matter if he assaults and kills two squads of ten guys and suppresses two squads of ten riflemen? You're not going to care. Bubble wrapping your tanks will help so he can't destroy them, and his supression rules won't work vs vehicles. So then just go and kill him on your turn.

I think if you are wanting to counter the skyhammer, you would need multiple interceptor. Tau Riptides and broadsides come to mind. You can count on having first turn to set up a counter.

 Thud wrote:
Okapi, the Devs get relentless on the turn they arrive, so that'd be 40 shots, not 24.

Also, with UM CT they'll re-roll to hit.

Add a character with an auspex, and your Scorpions are pretty screwed too.

I missed the bit about relentless. In that case the Devs on average inflict 10,6 wounds on forest Scorpions, but still only 5,3 on ruin Scorpions. In other words, either absorb the entire alpha strike and die, or absorb it and massacre the Devs next turn. 210 points well spent either way.

Guard has been sucking in performance in high level play regardless. Some of best way to use guard nowadays are Aliied drop pod transports, Air Guard Scions, Foot guard blobs with a DA Lib for the force field.

If you use Air Guard, just reserve everything and go second.

Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

Chaos daemons and csm have their crazy new sand prince whenever he declares his sky hammer he must delay by one turn as all reserves the enemy deploys come on one turn late as I recall correctly. And that gives you time to prepare and reorganize yourself to handle the blow.

And attack you know is coming is an attack you can micromanage. Around, or make troubling to handle

For dark Angels it's probably going to be deredeo dreadnaughts, with an interrogator chaplain you get two of them and standing still means they have interceptor. When they pod to earth you can shoot down two pods and that will lower their combat effectiveness by half.

And with deathwing terminators and Corvus hammer armed black Knights as our staple units it's going to be tough to find targets to charge into melee with. This problem also effects the space wolves, how does one find a target in an army filled with units that eat assault marines for lunch.

Sky hammer is probably going to work best against guardsmen, orks, tyranids, and dark eldar. I could honestly seeing it basically auto crump dark eldar armies like paper with a successful drop of your four pods.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

Pretty sure these don't count towards DPA. Can anyone confirm/deny?

So you don't have to keep wondering.

Cheers... Yeah, so your other pods come down as planned.

It's a brutal formation. But hey, Decurions and Scatbikes...

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

I think tau has the best chance to counter this. Since they can take multiple units that can intercept. I take 2 riptides and 2x 3 man units of missile broadsides. Everyone has early warning override system. Doesn't matter if you go second or first. The sky hammer comes down and you intercept every marine that gets out. skyhammer does nothing.

Okapi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

There are a couple of problems with your analysis, though.

If you (Eldar) go first and deploy nothing, except for two infiltrating units of Scorpions, the Marine player will have the formation come in on turn one and table you. Remember that those Scorpions will be facing the entire Marine army, not just the formation. And if you've gone for two full units of Scorpions, your army isn't exactly rock hard, so you'll struggle against most top armies.

If you go second, the Marine player will have to choose which turn to deploy the Pods without knowing your deployment. If he goes turn one and you only deploy the Scorpions, it's the same story. If you deploy more stuff he'll get juicier targets and probably kill everything before your reserves come in, making you rely on your beta strike going off perfectly. If he goes for turn two deployment, you stand a better chance, since you get to take out some of his support, and get your buffs up, but at this point you're hoping for your opponent to screw up. Hardly the most reliable strategy.

I'm not saying the formation is going to crush everything in its path, but if you think it's no big deal, you'll be in for a rude awakening once you face off against one piloted by a decent player.

Inquisitor Coteaz paired with 30 guardsmen I feel would do a decent amount of damage to anything that drops in range.

So, if CWE play reserve-heavy sans Scorps, who infiltrate, SM can go first or second.

If he goes first, kill the Scorpions. Two turns of shooting/assaulting before the Scorpions can assault, or Reserves come in. And ASM can perform vs Scorpions in Assault if you concentrate them (17ppm vs 17ppm Scorpions, wound on 3s vs wound on 4s). Exarch can make it harder, but that's +40pts for a model that'll kill 2-3 guys a turn. Good, but two ASM squads should take out a Scorpion squad each turn. And after the first, the Devs can charge if they really want to.

Two full turns of both CC and shooting is not a good thing for a T3 unit, even if they're ha 2+ cover and 3+ armor, they aren't going to do well.

If SM goes second, he'll put a cheap unit on the table that won't die to Scorpion pistols, then come in after your reserves T2, blowing up whatever he wants.

LD9 vs 3d6 is failing most of the time. Where are Scorpions getting the reroll from?

If SM come in T1, GtG'ing them is good, but not necessary. Scorpions cannot charge T1.

As for why not charge the HW devs? Because the SM player should put the naked 5man Combat Squad in front of a Scorpion squad if he lacks the resources to at least tie it up.

Also, an Autarch can't start in a unit of Scorpions. So if it starts on the table, its probably dead.

Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

Null lol, GK null deployment. Nemesis strike force. The grav will enjoy shooting the termies though.

With *TWO* Skyhammers, of course!

Or a full IK army. Would they survive the Grav? Reroll to glance, but no double-HP loss from Immobilize results.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

lol way to go to make a cheese list. Still the skyhammer is going to do most of the work for you. Those it is still the priority target to be intercepted. Even will your null deployment, the skitarii are just there to back up your main force which is the skyhammer. I break your sky hammer before it does anything then I mop up the rest of your army. At most it should take 3-4 turns to table you.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

gungo wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

You can't table until the end of game turn 1. There will be 6 pods, 40 skitarii, 20 devs, and 15 assault marines that arrive T1.

Loss to tabling is end of game turn, not player turn. Going second with 100% of your army is not only viable, but is also the goal of many 'Null Deployment' lists. One more thing Pods do better than Xenos.

You do realise that all the units except the 5 man tact squad are coming in together right? And the Skitari's firepower is nothing to sneeze at especially at BS7.

40 skitari and 35 marines in your zone turn 1.
40 grav shots.
84 rad shots.
9 plasma.
6 haywire.

Skitari using +3BS and Skyhammer using UM's Devastator Doctrines.


That being said, I realise there are armies who can actually take and survive these kinda punishment.

Other null deployment armies.
CD with drone-star in ruins/or full psychic powers if they went first.
Necron Decurion and Wraithstars with Rezorb, T1 rezorb!
Admech using Shroudspalm Canticle (Shrouded+Stealth) or going to ground en masse and hope there's NF. Next turn use Iron Soul Canticle to give Fearless.
Eldar can go to ground+jink and pray a Psyker survives to cast Asuryan's Will (12" fearless bubble).
Horde is horde.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

drop pod skit are not new, and no one thinks the sky is falling because of them.

The assault marines have no assault weapons, the 10 guys with 2 flamers assaulting avg 2 dead meq a turn. Not scary

The grav devs are great, since they get relentless, makes devs more interesting. However are they better than podded command squads with grav? or podded sternguard? And then if you think they are better consider you are having to buy 2 assault squads to get the relentless, for the points you can probably pick up 1-2 more podded sternguard squads than the devs, I would rather have more sternguard. Grav is awesome and is a bane to MCs especially, but other than the WK most of the MCs I see are FMC, 4 grav cannons are averaging 4 hits on the turn they come in against a FMC, which will probably see a jink resulting in 1-2 wounds from each dev squad. If you have the dev reroll tactic you could get 7 hits, which would be a decent amount of wounds if the FMC does not jink. I would rather have melta sternguard just because combat squaded you can probably kill 2 non superheavy vehicles the turn they land as opposed to 1 vehicle from the grav cents.

Its a good formation, but its not changing the marine drop pod alpha strike, it just gives them the option to have dev squads do it instead of sternguard, and gives some viability to assault squads. I would be much more scared of the list if the assault squads had an assault threat, and were combat squaded so they could assault 4 units.

 Glitcha wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

lol way to go to make a cheese list. Still the skyhammer is going to do most of the work for you. Those it is still the priority target to be intercepted. Even will your null deployment, the skitarii are just there to back up your main force which is the skyhammer. I break your sky hammer before it does anything then I mop up the rest of your army. At most it should take 3-4 turns to table you.

Mop up with what? This kills almost your entire army. Skitarii are also lethal.

Bikes actually can't go to ground. Voluntarily or otherwise, IIRC. So are probably an interesting tool in trying to stop this nonsense.

(So if a Bike unit fails their LD, can they overwatch?)

With 4+ knights ahould survive. If the enemy gets half the shots past your shield. He might kill one knight.

Deshkar wrote:
You do realise that all the units except the 5 man tact squad are coming in together right? And the Skitari's firepower is nothing to sneeze at especially at BS7.

40 skitari and 35 marines in your zone turn 1.
40 grav shots.
84 rad shots.
9 plasma.
6 haywire.

Skitari using +3BS and Skyhammer using UM's Devastator Doctrines.


That being said, I realise there are armies who can actually take and survive these kinda punishment.

Other null deployment armies.
CD with drone-star in ruins/or full psychic powers if they went first.
Necron Decurion and Wraithstars with Rezorb, T1 rezorb!
Admech using Shroudspalm Canticle (Shrouded+Stealth) or going to ground en masse and hope there's NF. Next turn use Iron Soul Canticle to give Fearless.
Eldar can go to ground+jink and pray a Psyker survives to cast Asuryan's Will (12" fearless bubble).
Horde is horde.

Unless I missed something the skitarri are not all coming in turn one. The non skyhammer drop pods are still subject to drop pod assault. So you could have 3 drop pods come in, and two sit in reserve for turn 2.

The ASM don't assault equal-numbers of MEQ. They assault vehicles, smaller units, or back fielders. You don't need a CCW for those. They should threaten most vehicles in the game!

There are 7 pods. 6 from FA and 1 on the tactical squad.

Dont get me wrong, i believe my armies are ready for this and it is very very strong. Just pushing discussion and awareness along.

There are 7 non-skyhammer pods, mostly empty.

Er . U know the skitari can ride in them right?

5 Mek Gunz with max Grots, MA KFF BM with DLS and PainBoy with Meks thrown in to absorb challenges. Min grot mobs spread around in front, all behind a ADL with Quad Gun.

T7 4+, 5++ save with 20 wounds before they matter with 2+ rerollable against CC attacks. All with FNP.

What's the maths vs the various Dev guns? Thanks

Bharring wrote:
The ASM don't assault equal-numbers of MEQ. They assault vehicles, smaller units, or back fielders. You don't need a CCW for those. They should threaten most vehicles in the game!

The units that you are proposing they charge will most likely not be shot at by the grav devs, removing the overwatch immunity and rerolls.

I'm not sure what backfield units you are imagining charging, but I don't think it's going to have the synergy that makes this assault squads from this formation worthwhile.

combat squading the Assault squads to charge vehicles, even with rear armor 10, 5 guys charging a vehicle sees 14 s4 attacks, which is 9 hits, which is 1 maybe 2 glances on average. With krak it would be 5 attacks, 3 hits, also 1-2 effects although there is a chance for a pen. Not terrible, 10 of these guys might kill an AV10 rear armor vehicle with 3hp. If it was previously hit by grav you might get an immobile result and they would trash it good, but considering the devs cant split fire if 4 grav cannons firing at the vehicle didn't kill it already it was FUBAR and most likely immobile and cripple.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deshkar wrote:
Er . U know the skitari can ride in them right?

I think he was referring to my comment, I didn't even count the drop pods and just considered the 4 skit squads as being podded + the tac marines in a pod = 5 pods.

With the 7 pods you could have 4 drop in (all the skit) and leave 3 for later as per drop pod assault (tac marines and 2 empty pods.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Coteaz himself have to be within 12" of the Deepstriker? Only someone that forgot would be able to use him effectively. Yes, ASMs need to be closer but if Coteaz is that close to the front than the Devs might be able to pick him off. Of the 3 TFCs that has BS6.. xD

Bharring wrote:
So, if CWE play reserve-heavy sans Scorps, who infiltrate, SM can go first or second.

If he goes first, kill the Scorpions. Two turns of shooting/assaulting before the Scorpions can assault, or Reserves come in. And ASM can perform vs Scorpions in Assault if you concentrate them (17ppm vs 17ppm Scorpions, wound on 3s vs wound on 4s). Exarch can make it harder, but that's +40pts for a model that'll kill 2-3 guys a turn. Good, but two ASM squads should take out a Scorpion squad each turn. And after the first, the Devs can charge if they really want to.

Two full turns of both CC and shooting is not a good thing for a T3 unit, even if they're ha 2+ cover and 3+ armor, they aren't going to do well.

If SM goes second, he'll put a cheap unit on the table that won't die to Scorpion pistols, then come in after your reserves T2, blowing up whatever he wants.

LD9 vs 3d6 is failing most of the time. Where are Scorpions getting the reroll from?

If SM come in T1, GtG'ing them is good, but not necessary. Scorpions cannot charge T1.

As for why not charge the HW devs? Because the SM player should put the naked 5man Combat Squad in front of a Scorpion squad if he lacks the resources to at least tie it up.

Also, an Autarch can't start in a unit of Scorpions. So if it starts on the table, its probably dead.

How is the Space Marine player going to move the rest of his army forward fast enough to do any damage? Most of their firepower is in the 24-36" range, and no sensible Eldar player would move forward towards his opponent's deployment zone in this scenario. Stick them in the far back! They get the re-roll from the Aspect Host formation, which I'd think is pretty much always used if you want to take Aspect Warriors these days. Re-roll morale, pinning and regroup. Also, the Autarch doesn't need to be on the table for his ability to work, he just has to be included in the army.

Obviously, if the Space Marine player elected to go second, and come in on turn two, the Eldar player should simply deploy everything and attempt to table his opponent before the formation comes in. Unlike Space Marines, Eldar are fast enough to bring everything to bear on turn one or two.

 Thud wrote:

Okapi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

There are a couple of problems with your analysis, though.

If you (Eldar) go first and deploy nothing, except for two infiltrating units of Scorpions, the Marine player will have the formation come in on turn one and table you. Remember that those Scorpions will be facing the entire Marine army, not just the formation. And if you've gone for two full units of Scorpions, your army isn't exactly rock hard, so you'll struggle against most top armies.

If you go second, the Marine player will have to choose which turn to deploy the Pods without knowing your deployment. If he goes turn one and you only deploy the Scorpions, it's the same story. If you deploy more stuff he'll get juicier targets and probably kill everything before your reserves come in, making you rely on your beta strike going off perfectly. If he goes for turn two deployment, you stand a better chance, since you get to take out some of his support, and get your buffs up, but at this point you're hoping for your opponent to screw up. Hardly the most reliable strategy.

I'm not saying the formation is going to crush everything in its path, but if you think it's no big deal, you'll be in for a rude awakening once you face off against one piloted by a decent player.

I never said it isn't a big deal. It most certainly is. I'm just saying there are units it will struggle against: Infantry with good armour saves and cover saves, that can also stand up for themselves in close combat. Striking Scorpions is just the most obvious choice, but I suppose Raven Guard infantry and maybe swarms of Gaunts might stand a chance as well.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Null lol, GK null deployment. Nemesis strike force. The grav will enjoy shooting the termies though.

Skyhammer chooses turn 1 or 2. They double null your null.

Saythings wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Coteaz himself have to be within 12" of the Deepstriker? Only someone that forgot would be able to use him effectively. Yes, ASMs need to be closer but if Coteaz is that close to the front than the Devs might be able to pick him off. Of the 3 TFCs that has BS6.. xD

"I’ve Been Expecting You: If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it. There is no limit on how many times the ability can be used in a turn."

So Coteaz is eaily dealt with. The special rule doesn't say that his unit has to be within 12", he himself has to be within that range. So if you stick him inside a massive blob of guardsmen there's not much of a chance of you using this special rule. I feel that the Inquisition codex can be used pretty effectively in conjunction with the Skyhammer, but not as a defender. An Inquisitor or two with 3 servo-skulls each is a pretty solid investment if you're looking for more DS accuracy. Don't really know how necessary it'd be but something to keep in mind.

First thought for moving the rest of the SM army forward is more Pods.

Second thought is Rhinos. With Pitched deployment, move up 6", disembark 6". You're now shooting the far board edge. Not ideal, but only because SM have much better options. Lots of toys will hit anywhere they want.

Rerolling a LD9 vs 3d6 is about 40% *success* rate. Still failing more likely than not.

And things like Scorpions aren't doing any damage flif they aren't getting close.

Whoops. Nevermind.

FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

The rerolls make them terrifying. But honestly, *only* 1-2 HP on almost any tank, with an EV of more than 1 being a pen is amazing for only 85 pts. Not enough? Take another squad, too!

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

I may be mistaken but if an unit has gtg it does not have to test to gtg as it is already there. Ie you can't pin an unit that is already pinned.

blaktoof wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

I may be mistaken but if an unit has gtg it does not have to test to gtg as it is already there. Ie you can't pin an unit that is already pinned.

It still has to test, but it doesn't count as having G2G because of the special rule.

I'm not sure if that is correct, the rule says the unit must go to ground which highly suggests it is a modified pinning test. Units that have already gone to ground don't test to go to ground again . Given the rule is tied to going to ground by the must statement, the unit can't be forced into a state it was already in. The special rule for the assault marines specifies they have to go to ground from the fusilade, if the unit has gone to ground before the fusilade test they did not go to ground because of the fusilade and the assault special rule does not meet its criteria to work.

So strictly RAW if you opt to go to ground before the test the test cannot force you to go to ground, the assault special rule requires you go to ground from the fusilade and since that did not happen they cannot benefit from it.

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Decurion Detachment) ++

+ Core +

Reclamation Legion
··Catacomb Command Barge [Tesla Cannon]
····Overlord [Warscythe]
··Immortals
····5x Immortal [5x Tesla Carbine]
··Tomb Blades
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Auxiliary +

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

1994 thank you for turning up, bye bye IoM.

Ffyllotek wrote:

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Decurion Detachment) ++

+ Core +

Reclamation Legion
··Catacomb Command Barge [Tesla Cannon]
····Overlord [Warscythe]
··Immortals
····5x Immortal [5x Tesla Carbine]
··Tomb Blades
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Auxiliary +

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

1994 thank you for turning up, bye bye IoM.

Go second. Wait for most of the deathmarks to hit the table. Bring in the SAF. Bam. Also, what's this list going to do against practically any other army?

Yep. As is always the case, a list only counts as a "counter" if it's reasonably TAC. 100% tailored lists that will get gak on by any other list in existence sans the one it's specifically designed to beat isn't very viable.

And for that matter, who owns 80 death marks? You're going to go out and buy 60 deathmarks to beat just one list? By comparison, most SM players who've been in the game for more than 5 years will probably have most of the models needed for Skyhammer.

Okapi wrote:Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Really important aspect to consider; the barge is deployed and the pods/ASM get to counter-deploy.

The best counter is simple.. Zooming/Flying MC. Second best is high cover saves. Third is MSU. Fourth maybe massed AV (but it all depends on if Grav is going to be all-comers... I'm tempted to fill a 3rd FA pod with arc rifles)

I haven't done any math with it, but I'm starting to think some kind of Mechanized Eldar force wouldn't fare so badly against the Skyhammer formation.

Have several Eldar skimmers - ideally Wave Serpents, to use the Serpent Shield for max survivability - with Spirit Stones and Holofields. Put some deadly occupants inside; Wraithguard and Fire Dragons to make sure the Assault Marines die after they drop.

There's a chance that the skimmers will still take damage, but with Jink saves, the Shield, and the Holofield to protect somewhat against krak grenades and power fists, the skimmers should still be alive.

Combine that mechanized core with a Wraithknight in as much cover as possible, and I'm thinking Suncannon, Shield, and secondary gun. It might distract the Devastators from the skimmers, and if it survives it can go hunt down the devastators.

Maybe a Crimson Hunter or two in reserve.

Amusing idea: take red hunters chapter tactics to get sky fire or interceptor on your devs a part of SAF.

Yeah, as a nid player I would say stick some venomthropes/malanthropes into ruins/terrain with as many other ground models as possible and then go flying circus.

could a single unit of say warp spider and am wall of martyrs imperial bunker do the job.

Say i deploy a single 5 man unit of warp spider behind the bunker in a line butted up against the bunker.. I get deep struck by the formation and they basically all land near me, or close enough to shoot. theoretically i can simply jump back and forth through the imperial bunker out of LOS of the attacking unit (and moving into the LOS of a different unit), than when that second unit fires on me, i can once again just jump through the bunker and be on the other side again, where the first unit cant shoot at me because its already "shot" that turn. The bunker is not very wide, even a poor of 3 or more on 2d6 should easily be enough to warp through it.

Coteaz
10 skitarii vanguard with warlord and three plasma calivers
Deploy in ruins, everything else reserve.

Still lose. I know because we ran a mock game. And while one unit of assault marines that scattered too close did get annihilated, the devs shot them off the table.

Yeah, I think deploying up against board edges with Land Speeder Storms around the edges might help. (They double scatter distance for anything within 12".)

Warp spiders only work if you shoot them. If you just charge, they die. Bunker of wraith scythes works.

Terminal wrote:
I haven't done any math with it, but I'm starting to think some kind of Mechanized Eldar force wouldn't fare so badly against the Skyhammer formation.

Have several Eldar skimmers - ideally Wave Serpents, to use the Serpent Shield for max survivability - with Spirit Stones and Holofields. Put some deadly occupants inside; Wraithguard and Fire Dragons to make sure the Assault Marines die after they drop.

There's a chance that the skimmers will still take damage, but with Jink saves, the Shield, and the Holofield to protect somewhat against krak grenades and power fists, the skimmers should still be alive.

Combine that mechanized core with a Wraithknight in as much cover as possible, and I'm thinking Suncannon, Shield, and secondary gun. It might distract the Devastators from the skimmers, and if it survives it can go hunt down the devastators.

Maybe a Crimson Hunter or two in reserve.

That sounds great, but it's brick ton of points to deal with 2 devastator and 2 assault squads


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Amusing idea: take red hunters chapter tactics to get sky fire or interceptor on your devs a part of SAF.

It's too bad there wasn't reverse interceptor. As the drop pods descend, guns fire down at stuff!

Oh, I know, Talys. It's not a 'tool' to counter the formation, but rather an army style to minimize losses against it. But I think that, with the proper weapon and support unit choices, it could also be a pretty good TAC list.

I'm not sure if Eldar really has a specific tool to counter Skyhammer. It has no Interceptor. But what Eldar does have is some very durable units.

Not sure if chief's warp spider idea would work all that well. I mean, unless your whole army was composed of Spiders and Bunkers, I'd think the Marine player would concentrate on the other parts of your army first.

Razerous wrote:

Okapi wrote:Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Really important aspect to consider; the barge is deployed and the pods/ASM get to counter-deploy.

The best counter is simple.. Zooming/Flying MC. Second best is high cover saves. Third is MSU. Fourth maybe massed AV (but it all depends on if Grav is going to be all-comers... I'm tempted to fill a 3rd FA pod with arc rifles)

The barge in assault would be hitting the lord not the chariot....the attacker picks in cc.

The best counter to this is bodies. That unit can only murder 3-4 thing when it hits and then it is dead.
ORKS and khorne daemonkin have no issues handling this.

Why not run a couple Void Shield Generators? You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit, so Grav would effectively do nothing against it, right? The marine player would have to fire a melta or something to try and take it out first. Then bubble wrap yourself with a unit to take the charge.

With Skyhammer, that many PA in your backfield isn't trivial to remove, especially after it does all its gak.

If you can hide the rear arc, Serpents have a decent chance to tank a lot of shots, but an equal-points ASM squad will wreck it on assault. And, if the rear arc is covered, has a good chance at destroying the contents when they can't disembark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scytheguard in bunkers sound good.

Until the Devs come down 24" away and blast at max range, or engage other things. Either way, they might not destroy you T1, but they win the game.

autopilot wrote:
Why not run a couple Void Shield Generators? You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit, so Grav would effectively do nothing against it, right? The marine player would have to fire a melta or something to try and take it out first. Then bubble wrap yourself with a unit to take the charge.

I know my SAF is running multi-meltas.

gungo wrote:

And assault Squads still scatter badly.
I also find devastators and assault Squads usually have different targets.

Scout bikes with teleport homers are cheap!
Devastators open up the transports, and the assault squads eat the passengers!

This is a very strong alpha strike formation. Null deployment, spread out, and MSU will help. Interceptor may also help thin the assault marines or the devastators, depending on what you're more worried about.

Terminal wrote:
Oh, I know, Talys. It's not a 'tool' to counter the formation, but rather an army style to minimize losses against it. But I think that, with the proper weapon and support unit choices, it could also be a pretty good TAC list.

I'm not sure if Eldar really has a specific tool to counter Skyhammer. It has no Interceptor. But what Eldar does have is some very durable units.

Not sure if chief's warp spider idea would work all that well. I mean, unless your whole army was composed of Spiders and Bunkers, I'd think the Marine player would concentrate on the other parts of your army first.

to clarify imagine deploying said bunker in the back left or right corner of your deployment zone with the open bunker side facing the table edge. imagine something like this (the exclamation mark and bottom line are the table/side edge and the backslash is the bunker that would but up against atleast one table edge completely blocking LOS from that side)

!
!_\_____

I could deploy nothing but one unit of spiders and im confident i cant move them in and out of LOS of everything involved in a single skyhammer formation landing and trying to shoot at me. It would be difficult landing all those jump troops and drop pods around it to begin with, but im actually pretty confident i can simply jump in and out of LOS and if need be jump right into the bunker to also not allow LOS from the assault squads. Either way i will be trying to out the firstime i face the formation. As for the rest of the list, unless its indirect fire, they to will not even have LOS of the single cornered bunker and warp spiders.

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

Can spiders make their move if they G2G?

stopcallingmechief wrote:

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

The devs have to pop the bunker before they can fire on the Wraithguard. Firing on the bunker would only prevent the bunker from firing overwatch, not the passengers (who have not been fired on).
With an escape hatch, the bunker wraithguard can disembark at a pretty good range. Possibly taking them out of assault range.

The skyhammer need multi-meltas to be able to pop bunkers, and needs grav to be able to pop wraithknights. Raiders with night shields (3+ jink) have a good shot at surviving a full grav dev squad (but will die to the krak grenade assault).
I think the sky hammer looks better on paper than in practice; and I'm far more worried about a skyhammer combined with 10 free razorbacks from the other formation. A turn 2 drop to hit key units advancing on your battle lines might prove more effective than a turn 1 alpha strike.

But for that to work, they need to be the most-vaible target through turn 2. Which means having an army of nothing but guys in bunkers. The SM player can just deep strike out of range. If you try to come to him, he destroys you. While he claims most Objectives.

Raiders will do terribly against the ASM, especially if they take Flamers.

One Grotesquerie, allied with Corpse Thief Claw, two Cast of Players.

Is there any reason the SM player can't attach ICs to the Skyhammer formation?

mercury14 wrote:
Is there any reason the SM player can't attach ICs to the Skyhammer formation?

No, but the debate about whether you can charge with ICs is raging in YMDC.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

The devs have to pop the bunker before they can fire on the Wraithguard. Firing on the bunker would only prevent the bunker from firing overwatch, not the passengers (who have not been fired on).
With an escape hatch, the bunker wraithguard can disembark at a pretty good range. Possibly taking them out of assault range.

The skyhammer need multi-meltas to be able to pop bunkers, and needs grav to be able to pop wraithknights. Raiders with night shields (3+ jink) have a good shot at surviving a full grav dev squad (but will die to the krak grenade assault).
I think the sky hammer looks better on paper than in practice; and I'm far more worried about a skyhammer combined with 10 free razorbacks from the other formation. A turn 2 drop to hit key units advancing on your battle lines might prove more effective than a turn 1 alpha strike.

while assault marines will wreck most vehicles they charge, dropping nearenough a vehilce to charge is tricky. Vehicles are big and scattering into them would be bad. Particularly if those vehilces are less than a hundred points, the risk might not equal the reward.

Depends on the size of the squad? I was thinking combat squad a 10man? Sub-100pts each?

Whether or not you go to ground willingly to avoid the no overwatch SR, going to ground near assault units and/or units that possibly have flamers is extremely dangerous. The unit that GTG is basically off the board for a turn and can be safely ignored. In a worst case scenario, it would let the assault marines shoot fire, stand around for a turn, and reposition to shoot more fire the next turn and still probably charge. In either case you don't want to go to ground if you can help it.

pickled_heretic wrote:
Whether or not you go to ground willingly to avoid the no overwatch SR, going to ground near assault units and/or units that possibly have flamers is extremely dangerous. The unit that GTG is basically off the board for a turn and can be safely ignored. In a worst case scenario, it would let the assault marines shoot fire, stand around for a turn, and reposition to shoot more fire the next turn and still probably charge. In either case you don't want to go to ground if you can help it.

IG commanders can order them to stand back up or you can have a mobile fearless bubble and bring it in range.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

As I posted in the thread in General Discussion before it was locked, this formation has only two real weaknesses:

1. Deep Strike unreliability. The assault squads still scatter, which means a potential mishap and/or moving out of charge range. The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

As I have not seen this pointed outin the thread yet, this is not the case.

"Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule."

It is actually a strength of the formation, you get the 2 dev. squad plus what ever else you want.

Take more bodies of Guardsmen. Hopefully with fearless and or counter attack

Lets see you charge now

(as well chances are the devs will only have Grav cannons so guardsmen will be much less effected)

Second though mass DT would work well too. sure you will probably lose FB but now you get to charge at like 400 points worth of stuff right in front of you. and off vehicles they wont be consolidating.

 pretre wrote:
Can spiders make their move if they G2G?

With an Exarch the Spiders automatically pass their morale, pinning and regroup tests. Does not matter if it is on 3D6.

On the other hand, a naked 5-man ASM squad will do nasty things to a Warp Spider squad in Assault, Exarch or no. So they probably won't get shot at at all.

I think most armies will have a reasonable counter without having to literally make your list all about it.

DE - generally low saves and jink will help mitigate Grav, not to mention that the Covens formations have models with relatively low saves for their toughest units, with FNP being the real save. Grotesquerie and CTC will hardly be phased by grav and some puny ASM. "oh you want to come to me? please be my guest, my slow moving hulks are more than happy to oblige!"
Orks - MSU, Grav? oh no I lost some trukks. oh no now your charging me? again they will generally die quickly, but the formation (unless you stuff more points into it) wont have the volume to deal with mass units of orks in trukks. Not to mention the ability to bubblewrap and make some difficult places to DS.
IG - the ability to get back up, meatshields and cover saves
Crons - well jink once again for vehicles, a couple deathmark units to help soften grav squads, yeh the ASM will be nasty, but still manageable.

I think the main thing is; the meta will adjust as per usual. If this becomes prevalent then we will see lists that tailor more towards countering it. I know people always say a list ain't good if tailored for 1 other list, but in reality all lists change when a powerful new build appears. The changes may be small, but you always do it, when making a tournament list you will consider what your going to see and plan accordingly, hence why surprise lists like Greentide, lictorshame and other things that generally fall outside of the typical meta are viable. They nullify some of the choices your TAC list made.

My thoughts on countering the formation as an eldar player are these:

4 Wraith Knights on the table and 1 windrider formation in reserve. Glaive version of the night might even be best here, 5+ inv and 5+ fnp. Keep one or two with wraith cannons and keep these in 4+ cover, or in reserves (you can even deepstrike one if you are daring). Think farseer would be best here, guide is really good on knights, and if you get fortune then one of them will be invincible.

3 units of wraithguard in serpents and 2 Night Spinners, both with butt facing table edge and hope he has more grav than melta. I would also add a bunker + ammo storage with dark reapers (amazing against regular marines), the bunker mostly so they can survive the alpha, but also for that 2x S9 Ap2 intercept and being able to reroll 1s when using the 2x S5 Ap3 profiles against marines/bikes (making exarch twin linked). Everything starts on the table. Variable would be adding D-Scythes or not, and using a spiritseer (as well as farseer) or not.

2 bastions with dark reapers, probably with void shields, these start on the table. Then add 3 falcons with fire dragons that can deep strike without scatter. Autarch with fusion gun, or warp pack thingy and death spinner. If you are allowed to bring two of the same formation then I think a unit of warp spiders is best, you don't need more anti tank, you don't need more mass ap2/3, you need more volume of fire. If you can only take one aspect formation, then put the fire dragons here, give reapers ammo storage in bastions, and buy more bikes that you keep in reserve. Bastions are nice in that they have 360 degree coverage, the disadvantage is a 75points price, and that max 2-4 reapers will ever be able to shoot out the windows on any one side.

Another fortification option is to go for wall of martyrs. Advantage is 3 S9 icarus with 2x shots, ignore jink and intercept with 3 units of reapers, where up to 8 can shoot out the windows. Disadvantage is that the certaing fortifications in the formation are useless and you end up paying for a lot of cover saves that you will not be using, and the bunkers only face one way so drop pods behind the building can only get hit by the icarus. So you might have to place the builings too far back for the reapers to cover the whole map, or you have to face one of the bunkers back towards your backline. It would also be harder to afford fire dragons. However, you can add and probably should add scorpions on the battlements. 2+ cover, rerollable overwatch and stubborn.

I also agree with Okapi that making a list around scorpions could be really good. Mandiblasters make them good against charging assault marines with HoW, 2+ cover makes them good against grav and melta. Arguably you should bring two full units because of the volume of fire they are facing, which could get expensive, but all the options against skyhammer are expensive,.

MSU. Hold your valuable units in reserve. Do as much damage as you can to the rest of the force in the mean time.

Can someone tell me what's the preferred Dev load out? Is it Grav cannons? With amps? How do they work against Models with no save? (Grots)

 PipeAlley wrote:
Can someone tell me what's the preferred Dev load out? Is it Grav cannons? With amps? How do they work against Models with no save? (Grots)

I prefer MM for this formation.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Can someone tell me what's the preferred Dev load out? Is it Grav cannons? With amps? How do they work against Models with no save? (Grots)

I assume the worst roll you can make is a 6+, so it would be 6+, same way worst to wound roll you can have is a 6+?

From the grav wiki - "instead rolls the target's armor save up to a minimum of 6+".

I would actually consider 10 man dev squads to combat squad and a mix of weapons for variety. If the ASM are not loading up on flamers they are doing it wrong. A 5 man squad has 2 flamers and a combi flamer. That is a lot of flamers to remove low armor save chaff to get to the big stuff. I would even consider deathwind launchers on the pod.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Can someone tell me what's the preferred Dev load out? Is it Grav cannons? With amps? How do they work against Models with no save? (Grots)

I don't know the costs of the weapons, but I would assume a mix of Grav and MM on squads of Devs and Centeurions to cover all bases. Grav on centeurions is probably better, but I think you can run melta on the assault centeurions, so you might want to put grav on devestators anyway.

My plan for this is bringing an endless swarm. "Oh whats that? You just killed 90 gaunts with your alpha strike? Well lets see if you can kill 45 gaunts on turn 2! Ahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaaaa

 Acidian wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Can someone tell me what's the preferred Dev load out? Is it Grav cannons? With amps? How do they work against Models with no save? (Grots)

I don't know the costs of the weapons, but I would assume a mix of Grav and MM on squads of Devs and Centeurions to cover all bases. Grav on centeurions is probably better, but I think you can run melta on the assault centeurions, so you might want to put grav on devestators anyway.

Well this is great news then!! Grav and MM will be next to useless against 4+ cover save 6+ armor save models and Flamers will be wounding on 6's against T7 Mek Gun grots. Thank you!

ASM sergeants can't get Combi weapons IIRC. Also, unless you are trying to use up 10 pts, 2 flamers on the ASMs probably isn't worth it. You want them to get into combat the turn they come in and knocking off the enemy or two on the charge is going to make the charge distance even more difficult. That's not including the terrible risk of deepstriking close enough for the flamers to actually reach. Too much risk, so little reward. I have tried running them with 2 evis's on each squad, but it's so expensive. I might just run 10man squads with a meltabomb. All marines come with grenades and a decent number of attacks. If Devs make them GtG, the reroll to hit and wound help. If you're running into fearless armies that don't GtG, you might want to consider running with the Tactical Doctrine or even the Assault Doctrine that turn. Rerolling 1's to hit in shooting and assaults help.

Those T7 mek guns are going to be jucy targets for small ASM squads to charge...

It occured to me that skyhammer vs tau would probably be a lot of fun for the tau player. 9 broadsides with 72? twin-linked missiles and 2 riptides with velocity tracker (gives intercept). Would of course be better if the tau gets to go first so he is able to nova the riptide weapons, then you have 12 shots with rending or S9 Large Blast AP2 you can blow all over the assault marines, devestators or centeurions.

Off course, if even 1 assault marine makes it into assault then the that unit is lost for the rest of the battle.

Bharring wrote:
Those T7 mek guns are going to be jucy targets for small ASM squads to charge...

Good! They'll either be single Kannon mobz or 5 Gunz with a DLS MA Big MeK with Killsaw. Looking forward to it.

 Acidian wrote:
It occured to me that skyhammer vs tau would probably be a lot of fun for the tau player. 9 broadsides with 72? twin-linked missiles and 2 riptides with velocity tracker (gives intercept). Would of course be better if the tau gets to go first so he is able to nova the riptide weapons, then you have 12 shots with rending or S9 Large Blast AP2 you can blow all over the assault marines, devestators or centeurions.

Off course, if even 1 assault marine makes it into assault then the that unit is lost for the rest of the battle.

VT gives you Skyfire.

EWO gives you the intercept.

But this is an obvious counter to reserves.

Though you wont be getter ignore cover so they can easily drop in behind terrain (unless bad luck)

Do people really consider the Assault Marines that scary? I mean, they're better than Marines, but they're not Vanguard or highly specialized Assault unit. Best they can do it 1 Eviscerator per 5 dudes and a Power weapon on the Sergeant, right?

As for Crons, I wouldn't even care that much. Decurion, starting in cover. Cover and 4+++ just laughs at most Alpha Strikes that aren't StrD. I realize most other armies can't do that, but hey, Crons are Crons.

Assault marines are scary to models that want to be shooting. Just like Wraiths are aren't super deadly, they are good tie up units. And they might sweep a unit or two.

Requizen wrote:
Do people really consider the Assault Marines that scary? I mean, they're better than Marines, but they're not Vanguard or highly specialized Assault unit. Best they can do it 1 Eviscerator per 5 dudes and a Power weapon on the Sergeant, right?

As for Crons, I wouldn't even care that much. Decurion, starting in cover. Cover and 4+++ just laughs at most Alpha Strikes that aren't StrD. I realize most other armies can't do that, but hey, Crons are Crons.

Lets also not forget that they can just mass charge a bunch of vehicles and plant potato grenades down av10 exaust pipes. (Especially the jinky kind)

It can also be very useful to try and knock out a special character or hold units in place for other heavy hitters to run up and charge.

I suppose that's true. I'm just more scared of the Relentless Devestators with Pinning than I am of the ASM, by a long shot.

Requizen wrote:
I suppose that's true. I'm just more scared of the Relentless Devestators with Pinning than I am of the ASM, by a long shot.

Actually if we are talking pre new book eldar serpents than this would of been amazing to get rid of them.

But now that they are nerfed we have to settle on them going after other targets.

Wonder what else would be good to Assault.

Rear armor vehicle assault is 1.
Small grouping of Things that rely on Cover to live (Mandrakes, jinky things)
most Basic troops.

Oh Artillery would be very good to assault.

Jetbikes?

Most things that aren't terrified of the Devs?

ASMs are great for countering a lot of potential counters for Skyhammer.

Well On jet bikes.

DE would be hurt the most since paper armor :/

Eldar with 3+ armor saves and hit and run probably wont care as much though will proably lose like 2-4 models with enough ap3+ weapons

Necrons still have there dumb 4+ 4++ for most attacks but dont they come in low model count units?

I meant ASM assaulting. ASM beat Jetbikes in CC by a great margin on the charge.

 Desubot wrote:
Well On jet bikes.

DE would be hurt the most since paper armor :/

Eldar with 3+ armor saves and hit and run probably wont care as much though will proably lose like 2-4 models with enough ap3+ weapons

Necrons still have there dumb 4+ 4++ for most attacks but dont they come in low model count units?

Warriors are 10-20, Immortals are 3+/4+++ and 5-10. Most of their other Infantry is 5-10 as well.

Requizen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Well On jet bikes.

DE would be hurt the most since paper armor :/

Eldar with 3+ armor saves and hit and run probably wont care as much though will proably lose like 2-4 models with enough ap3+ weapons

Necrons still have there dumb 4+ 4++ for most attacks but dont they come in low model count units?

Warriors are 10-20, Immortals are 3+/4+++ and 5-10. Most of their other Infantry is 5-10 as well.

Jet bikes. not warriors.

It takes what, 4-5 ASM assaulting a 10-man Windrider Jetbike squad to win in CC?

How many does it take to win against 10-20 Necron Warriors?

 Desubot wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Well On jet bikes.

DE would be hurt the most since paper armor :/

Eldar with 3+ armor saves and hit and run probably wont care as much though will proably lose like 2-4 models with enough ap3+ weapons

Necrons still have there dumb 4+ 4++ for most attacks but dont they come in low model count units?

Warriors are 10-20, Immortals are 3+/4+++ and 5-10. Most of their other Infantry is 5-10 as well.

Jet bikes. not warriors.

Ah. Tomb Blades are 3-9, and can take 3+ armor (and Stealth, but then you'd lose out on Ignores Cover, which sucks).

Bharring wrote:
Jetbikes?

Most things that aren't terrified of the Devs?

ASMs are great for countering a lot of potential counters for Skyhammer.

ASM and "great" in the same sentence seems like a stretch. Have you ever used ASM? They rank as "pitiful" on the scale of CC units in the game. Even the BA ones.

Bharring wrote:
It takes what, 4-5 ASM assaulting a 10-man Windrider Jetbike squad to win in CC?

How many does it take to win against 10-20 Necron Warriors?

Hm. Assuming a unit of 5, (not doing Power Weapons or Eviscerators because math is difficult enough), you have 5 HoW hits and 16 Attacks (3 on the charge each, 4 on the charge for Sarge), rerolling to hits and to wounds from the Formation Bonus. Assuming Decurion, becuase yes almost always Decurion.

HoW: 5 hits, 3.75Wounds, .9375 wounds after Armor and RP
Attacks: 12 Hits, 9 Wounds, 2.25 wounds after Armor and RP

So they kill ~3 Warriors in Assault. Each Warrior only deals .08 wounds in return, so the likelyhood of them tying or winning is pretty small. But, if they kill one or two, LD10 means they're probably going to stay in.

Against a 10 strong ASM unit, yeah you probably will kill and Sweep the Warriors.

Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

What about naked ASM squads charging units Devs didn't shoot at? Even with LD10, the Devs have a 50/50 of pinning the Necrons.

 Desubot wrote:
Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

Right, as I said, I just skipped it because it would take much longer to math out and I'm sorta lazy.

There's a very good shot at outright killing a unit between Grav and Assault. But, you can mitigate it in nearly any army by either being MSU so it's not a serious loss, or by bubble wrapping anything valuable with expendable stuff, or keeping things in reserve if the situation makes sense for it.

It's a very strong formation. Second best for SM after the utterly broken Librarius Conclave. But, it's not an instawin..

Requizen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

Right, as I said, I just skipped it because it would take much longer to math out and I'm sorta lazy.

There's a very good shot at outright killing a unit between Grav and Assault. But, you can mitigate it in nearly any army by either being MSU so it's not a serious loss, or by bubble wrapping anything valuable with expendable stuff, or keeping things in reserve if the situation makes sense for it.

It's a very strong formation. Second best for SM after the utterly broken Librarius Conclave. But, it's not an instawin..

It's an instawin against a non-trivial subset of lists and list archetypes.

I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Martel is correct if this formation goes first - you win. at 1850.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Wont some one PLEASE think of the lemons!
Well i guess if they take blobs it wont be too bad.

I cant wait to see how this does against most lists.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Sure, but that's not a bad thing. It's just another item in the counter list. If it hard counters certain lists and does very little against others, then it's fine imo.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that its alpha strike killing power will outright hard counter many lists out there.

I'm saying that its other capabilities are even scarier than said alpha killing power...

Bharring wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that its alpha strike killing power will outright hard counter many lists out there.

I'm saying that its other capabilities are even scarier than said alpha killing power...

Yes, my assessment is the same. Not being able to assault is one of the things that makes deep striking any BA unit automatically kinda meh. Which flies in the face of decent of angels, blah blah. The killing power combined with tie up ability of this formation is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Sure, but that's not a bad thing. It's just another item in the counter list. If it hard counters certain lists and does very little against others, then it's fine imo.

It counters too much and is weak against too little. Many of the things it is weak to aren't good in general to boot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel is correct if this formation goes first - you win. at 1850.

At more than 1850, just bring more than one formation.

What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

25 pts 2xS, AP2, Unwieldy and Armorbane.

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

Rules are in the BRB

Context clues from before should show you who can take it.

Costs i forget but its about a power fist i think. maybe more.

Edit: Pretre you 1 second bastard!

Edit: Actually nevermind it appears to have been 2min, 1 second still

 Desubot wrote:
Pretre you 1 second bastard!

That's what she said.

 pretre wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

25 pts 2xS, AP2, Unwieldy and Armorbane.

So the exact same cost as a PF but has Armorbane? Did PF go down in price? Seems too good to not take at least one.

As far as context goes, sometimes people misquote or forget, hence going to the source is a good idea.



Thanks!

That's assuming I remembered correctly. But yes.

That being said, it's a 2H weapon on a 1A model. It isn't OMFG good.

Requizen wrote:
Do people really consider the Assault Marines that scary? I mean, they're better than Marines, but they're not Vanguard or highly specialized Assault unit. Best they can do it 1 Eviscerator per 5 dudes and a Power weapon on the Sergeant, right?

As for Crons, I wouldn't even care that much. Decurion, starting in cover. Cover and 4+++ just laughs at most Alpha Strikes that aren't StrD. I realize most other armies can't do that, but hey, Crons are Crons.

The devs can come down 5take out high value targets with the grav cannons. 20 shots rerolling hits and wounds is still going to put some dent in the cover+RP. It will then also make them GTG
Then the combat squaded bolter squad wont kill anything, but will make another squad GTG

The assault marines charging in and rerolling hits and wounds might cause a unit to break. They wont do much damage but they could ponentially win the combat. 3 times as many attacks, rerolling hits and wounds is going to put out more damage against the crons then they are going to take and the crons arent so could be swept.


Is it great? No, but it isnt a counter. The skyhammer is doing better than standard SM would.

Against MSU you can split the cannons. Each combat squad takin 10 grav shots and you kill 2 units each that way. MSU isn't a counter unless your units are really cheap or have some way of surviving 10 grav shots.

I would assume that tying up shooting units would be assault marines best use. Let whatever melta you have pop tanks like serpents with WG, then let the assault marines charge the WG. I think someone said that the assault marines have something that can even deny overwatch, making d-scythes useless, but if it is a pinning test then WG are fearless anyway. You could also tie up dark reapers, fire dragons, scatbikes, and so on. Forces the opponent to keep these units off the table.

Played two games against the sky hammer.
Game 1, he went with 6 grav and 2 meltas, which was far too many grav, and he had to get far too close. Landing turn 1, it was a decent alpha strike, but cover and disposable units limited the damage. The close up devs got munched.

Game 2, the Skyhammer game down with 8 missile launchers, on turn 2. The cheaper skyhammer intercepted my advance, pinned units all over the place, and picked off some strays. The devs landed at long range in safe firing positions, and continued to dump in fire for turns after they landed.

IMO, the cheaper skyhammer landing turn 2 is far more dangerous. You can bubble wrap against an alpha strike, but if that hammer drops on turn 2, you waste your first turn maintaining your bubble.
In the 3rd game, (me watching this time) the hammer dropped bottom of 2, and the opponent had deployed spread out to try and limit damage. The marines hit one flank hard, dropped onto the softer flank and then turned both forces toward the center.

I'm going to say turn 2 drop is the way to go.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Played two games against the sky hammer.
Game 1, he went with 6 grav and 2 meltas, which was far too many grav, and he had to get far too close. Landing turn 1, it was a decent alpha strike, but cover and disposable units limited the damage. The close up devs got munched.

Game 2, the Skyhammer game down with 8 missile launchers, on turn 2. The cheaper skyhammer intercepted my advance, pinned units all over the place, and picked off some strays. The devs landed at long range in safe firing positions, and continued to dump in fire for turns after they landed.

IMO, the cheaper skyhammer landing turn 2 is far more dangerous. You can bubble wrap against an alpha strike, but if that hammer drops on turn 2, you waste your first turn maintaining your bubble.
In the 3rd game, (me watching this time) the hammer dropped bottom of 2, and the opponent had deployed spread out to try and limit damage. The marines hit one flank hard, dropped onto the softer flank and then turned both forces toward the center.

I'm going to say turn 2 drop is the way to go.

Anecdotal evidence and all that, but my thinking is also along these lines too. If you're not going for a full pod army, by turn two there would be plenty of weak spots to attack and take out.

Played against this formation with my Farsight Enclaves and I'm very happy to say that my army counters it pretty well. I ran one Riptide with interceptor but also my broadsides and my x2 teams of missile pod crisis suits had Interceptor (have been running them this way for a while now due to the high number of drop pod armies in my local meta) and thanks to some good rolls was able to mitigate the damage quite significantly. I was able to obliterate an entire Devastator squad with grav cannons with my missile pod crisis suit teams and my broadsides while the Riptide took a good chunk out of the other unit. Even then the Devastators almost one shot at him in a single turn of shooting with three grav cannons but his assault marines were unable to charge it thanks to a screen of crisis suits in front of it. still a very scary formation to face and I think I am going to continue to put interceptor on everything I possibly can just in case I come across this or other drop pod armies (which is the biggest weakness of my pure suit Tau list).

Counter the skyhammer? Ok, sure:

MSU Wyches and Space Dogs.

3 CADs:

3x Lhamaeans
18x5 Wyches w/Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades
2x10 Space Dogs (aka Khymera)
Total: 1850

I don't think this would actually be a great list, but I think it'd be funny to run 113 10 point models, and I almost have the models to run it. I used to run a dual CAD of 12 units of 5 haywire wyches in venoms.

Seriously though, the skyhammer is difficult to counter because it can be taken with a wide variety of other things. There are a number of tactics that haven't really been fully considered here. For instance, rather than taking the UM chapter tactics, someone using the skyhammer formation could take white scars tactics, thus giving all their ASM squads Hit&Run. This would alter the ASMs job to just tying up scary units that weren't pinned by initial volleys long enough for the shooty units to finish other units off, and for additional marine support to arrive from the other side of the board. Then they happily skip out of the melee while their friends shoot them up. Rinse and repeat. Tie up their units so they can't shoot, then use H&R to get out of combat so you can shoot them freely.

This is assuming the new codex still has the hit & run chapter tactic for white scars. I don't have the new codex yet.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Counter the skyhammer? Ok, sure:

MSU Wyches and Space Dogs.

3 CADs:

3x Lhamaeans
18x5 Wyches w/Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades
2x10 Space Dogs (aka Khymera)
Total: 1850

2x10 dogs? far too easy to break with Ld terrible.
You've got 9 fast attack slots, use them.
Go with 8 units of 1 dog, 1 unit of 12 dogs.

This reminds me on the DOA rule for BA in the 5th Ed.
But the scatter was halved and reserve rolls could be re rolled.

Assault Marines are not scary at all when they are in cc.
The concern is the shooting with flamers or meltas.
Dispensable units bubble wrapping more precious units are key, also an optimal reserve strategy.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

Gladius with full battle is really pricey. Probably not fieldable in an 1850 list

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

Gladius with full battle is really pricey. Probably not fieldable in an 1850 list

Oh, it most definitely is fieldable in 1850 list.

I can have: (2 Battle Demi Companies(Battle Company) + Armored Task Force)

1 Captain
1 Chaplain
1 Techmarine
3x5 Tactical Marines in Razorbacks with Twin-Linked Lascannons and Hunter Killer Missiles
3x5 Tactical Marines in Razorbacks with Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters and Hunter Killer Missiles
2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers, one in a Drop Pod, other in a Rhino with 2 Storm Bolters & Hunter Killer missile
2x5 Devastators with 4 missile launchers + flakk missiles - Dedicated Transport:(Not putting devs inside) Razorback with Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Hunter Killer Missiles
3 Predators with Autocannons and 2 Lascannons
70 points left for upgrades in 1850 list.

With the list above, you'd have 24 S8-S9 Shots in your first turn, 20 S6 Shots with Rending, and tons of bolter fire available, spread across 8 Razorbacks, 3 Predators, a Rhino, and a Drop Pod. Both assault squads have flamers, so the one in the Rhino can fire two flamers out the top hatch, and the one's in the drop pod arrive 1st turn, hop out of the drop pod and cook something. I'd probably use 40 of those 70 leftover points to purchase the upgrade to the Captain so you can add his orbital strike to your alpha strike, and keep him in the Rhino with the Assault flamers. The firepower of this list drops off a bit after the first turn, having spent your HK missiles, but then comes the real beauty of this list: It's all Obsec and hard to kill. So, you alpha strike your opponent turn 1, knocking out his teeth, then watch as they spend all game trying to catch up and failing. The list isn't going to table your opponent, but you're going to cripple him right away, then spend the game grinding it out against a crippled force who no longer has the teeth to whittle you down.

I'd use either Iron Hands chapter tactics for durability(It will not die on vehicles, and 6+ FnP on troops), or Ultramarines to be able to reroll 1's to hit every round. The Ultramarines tactics would be good for your alpha strike, and every round thereafter, but if you went with them instead, I'd reccomend swapping out all of the twin-linked Razorback Lascannons for the equivalently priced Lascannon + TL Plasma Gun. I might even consider swapping out the Assault Cannons for lascannon + TL Plasma Guns if using Ultramarines. You'd use a tactic every turn, probably starting with Devastator so Devs reroll all misses, and everyone else rerolls 1's. Then everything would at the very least reroll 1's for the next 4 turns.

For the record, that is 510 points worth of free vehicles in this 1850 list. Or, alternatively, you could view it as a 2360 list in 1850 camouflage.

 pretre wrote:
That's assuming I remembered correctly. But yes.

That being said, it's a 2H weapon on a 1A model. It isn't OMFG good.

Any model in the unit can take it. I'm putting it on my vet.

-Matt

Watch the recent full length battle report from frontline gaming on youtube.

Reecius just null deployed, his opponent stopped most of his stuff coming on turn 2 using scouts + dropping the assault squads, he was forced to tank shock to bring stuff on.

He still won... so. I'm not convinced the sky(hammer) is falling just yet.

zerosignal wrote:
Watch the recent full length battle report from frontline gaming on youtube.

Reecius just null deployed, his opponent stopped most of his stuff coming on turn 2 using scouts + dropping the assault squads, he was forced to tank shock to bring stuff on.

He still won... so. I'm not convinced the sky(hammer) is falling just yet.

Yeah, they didn't do tank shock correctly, either tactically or rules-wise. Troops wouldn't have moved back with the tank at all. They would have just moved to the side with none out in front of the tank. He also could have angled the tank's entry onto the board and went a full 12 inches so that he forced multiple units to test morale, potentially creating a much bigger hole for his infantry to come on.

Just give in to Khorne and ignore said formation. Blood for the blood God!

Mavnas wrote:
Against MSU you can split the cannons. Each combat squad takin 10 grav shots and you kill 2 units each that way. MSU isn't a counter unless your units are really cheap or have some way of surviving 10 grav shots.

Exactly. The cheapest unit in my one legal codex (GK) is 110 pts, realistically it'll be 115-135 if I wanted it to do something. Sure I can take rhinos/razorbacks, but those are eating up valuable points for my terminators (185 w/ psycannon). And since it can choose turn 1 or 2, I can't just null deploy. Most stuff these guys are targeting are going to be non-trivial units, if you build a list with that much bubble wrap a significant portion of your list is comprised of worthless units (unless you're IG, sort of).
Ironically, the Imperial Knight codex (my illegal codex) is a great counter since grav does nothing to superheavy vehicles, and even with an eviscerator charging one is bad news for an ASM squad.

But that is the point of MSU. If you had a truly MSU list then you wouldn't be playing GK's or some other high cost elite based list. My cheapest MSU unit is 25 points (orks - single buggie), but I can certainly build a MSU list that has almost zero targets for grav through combinations of tide/stampede formations, or just general footslogging. Yeh its not some top tier MSU, but if the amount of skyhammers is going up in the meta/tournie scene then the number of lists that are often considered nuisance lists is going to go up.

I get what your saying about not simply being able to avoid grav with MSU; as not every codex is able to actually create a true MSU due to either the efficiency of those units or the need for units that are grav targets.

Anyone try Deathmarks against this thing? Dropping in immediately and shooting in movement phase, they might remove a couple of heavy weapons, and also immediately present a threat that has to be dealt with. The Necron player gets to place them after the entire 'hammer has landed, so it should be possible to get clear of the Assault Marines.