So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

Learn to play? That's what you've got for us? Tell you what, why don't you play the BA and I'll play the Eldar. Then I can tell you to L2P.

There are some mathematical advantages that no amount of adaptation will fix. Between scatterlasers and D weapons, Eldar can kill everything in the game almost from 36" away and suffer precious little retaliation fire. That's why people complain.

People need to learn not to complain about the army, but worry about those times that there is someone who is playing the top tier list from that army... and if you are going to go to a tournament and cry because you could not compete then why did you go?!

Seriously, I have no issue playing eldar... yea the scatter bike is hard and so are the wraith knights, but I win and lose against them the same as every one else does. Fact is I felt the same pain in 3rd edition with my Sanguinary high cheese, but instead of letting it bother me I actually tried to help those around me that were complaining see ways that they could beat it. Granted, I have seen orks bog down a Forgeworld C'tan for three turns with nothing more than a nob and mad doc

Furthermore, if you want people to not complain then do not bring top tier lists to your casual gaming group unless that is what every one is bringing... Honestly bringing scatter bike to casual gaming is like someone bringing an AR-15 to paintball lol.

Buddy you just walked into a shark tank wearing a steak suit.

For real though, people complain about Eldar because for many armies there ISNT a way to deal with the absurdity that is 300 point wraithknights and D Template weapons. The Eldar were a dominant book already and near everything in it got buffed-don't be surprised if you bring a competitive list and nobody wants to play you.

And no, decurion players, Skyhammer players and Convocation players do not have an easier time finding a willing sucker to play against than an Eldar player with a competitive list.

You know what? You're right. Eldar players do get too much heat for the army they play. Not all of them are cheesy WAAC FOTM players. Some of them like their models/fluff/air brush-ability.

However, you need to realize that not all armies can stand up to yours. There is only so much generalship you can do in the face of a vastly superior force. Telling people to "L2P" is an old, tired and frankly weak argument that doesn't address the fundamental balance issues at play.

the_scotsman wrote:
Buddy you just walked into a shark tank wearing a steak suit.

For real though, people complain about Eldar because for many armies there ISNT a way to deal with the absurdity that is 300 point wraithknights and D Template weapons. The Eldar were a dominant book already and near everything in it got buffed-don't be surprised if you bring a competitive list and nobody wants to play you.

And no, decurion players, Skyhammer players and Convocation players do not have an easier time finding a willing sucker to play against than an Eldar player with a competitive list.

The funny thing is at lower points cost the skyhammer is a joke It is a good list, but by no means is it a power list.

#Eldarlivesmatter

"L2P, noob! LOL!"
That's what I got out of the OP.
Some people like their games to be fair. Eldar and Necron dexes generally don't offer fair play.

Thyhadras wrote:
People need to learn not to complain about the army, but worry about those times that there is someone who is playing the top tier list from that army... and if you are going to go to a tournament and cry because you could not compete then why did you go?!

Seriously, I have no issue playing eldar... yea the scatter bike is hard and so are the wraith knights, but I win and lose against them the same as every one else does. Fact is I felt the same pain in 3rd edition with my Sanguinary high cheese, but instead of letting it bother me I actually tried to help those around me that were complaining see ways that they could beat it. Granted, I have seen orks bog down a Forgeworld C'tan for three turns with nothing more than a nob and mad doc

Furthermore, if you want people to not complain then do not bring top tier lists to your casual gaming group unless that is what every one is bringing... Honestly bringing scatter bike to casual gaming is like someone bringing an AR-15 to paintball lol.

Sorry I didn't meantion, for friendly games I don't bring the cheese I try and use random lists, units I normally don't play with, but just the meantion of eldar gets the nope I don't want to play

 MWHistorian wrote:
"L2P, noob! LOL!"
That's what I got out of the OP.
Some people like their games to be fair. Eldar and Necron dexes generally don't offer fair play.

The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:

Thyhadras wrote:
People need to learn not to complain about the army, but worry about those times that there is someone who is playing the top tier list from that army... and if you are going to go to a tournament and cry because you could not compete then why did you go?!

Seriously, I have no issue playing eldar... yea the scatter bike is hard and so are the wraith knights, but I win and lose against them the same as every one else does. Fact is I felt the same pain in 3rd edition with my Sanguinary high cheese, but instead of letting it bother me I actually tried to help those around me that were complaining see ways that they could beat it. Granted, I have seen orks bog down a Forgeworld C'tan for three turns with nothing more than a nob and mad doc

Furthermore, if you want people to not complain then do not bring top tier lists to your casual gaming group unless that is what every one is bringing... Honestly bringing scatter bike to casual gaming is like someone bringing an AR-15 to paintball lol.

Sorry I didn't meantion, for friendly games I don't bring the cheese I try and use random lists, units I normally don't play with, but just the meantion of eldar gets the nope I don't want to play

Maybe because the random Eldar unit can hang with purposefully chosen marine and Tau units.

Honestly, if you have players who refuse to play in your gaming group then you have one of two problems...

1. You are a jerk to play against, and in fact do bring the cheesiest thing you can (which you just said is not the case)

2. They feed into the forum mentality of "oh no, they are bring eldar I can not win"...

either way are problems that a little bit of communication can solve

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

" They feed into the forum mentality of "oh no, they are bring eldar I can not win".."

It is indeed hard to win with no models on the table come turn 4.

 MWHistorian wrote:
"L2P, noob! LOL!"
That's what I got out of the OP.
Some people like their games to be fair. Eldar and Necron dexes generally don't offer fair play.

And Skyhammer. And Gladius.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

In Netrunner at least you have to run once and corp once against each tourney foe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
"L2P, noob! LOL!"
That's what I got out of the OP.
Some people like their games to be fair. Eldar and Necron dexes generally don't offer fair play.

And Skyhammer. And Gladius.

Gladius at least gives BA some false hope. I might be able to punch out all the free tanks and then punch out the marines inside. There's a CHANCE that might happen. Being tabled by turn 4? No chance there.

Also, telling people to L2P in 40k is pointless. The imbalances among codexes is astounding, and frankly, a lot of armies can't deal with Eldar very easily.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

That actually sounds like a interesting idea

I do feel bad for the eldar players who got into the army because of the fluff/aesthetics and who run fluffy lists. The stigma against eldar has gotten so bad that even those who play fun lists can't get a game in because people refuse to play them

War Kitten wrote:
I do feel bad for the eldar players who got into the army because of the fluff/aesthetics and who run fluffy lists. The stigma against eldar has gotten so bad that even those who play fun lists can't get a game in because people refuse to play them

Well, speaking from first-hand experience, playing a casual list of a top-tier army against other casual lists of lower-tier armies still isn't fun. It's a lot harder to make a bad CSM or Ork list than it is to make a bad Eldar list.

L2P is not a legitimate argument, especially when an Eldar player will beat a BA player of equal skill near 100% of the team.

Feth jetbikes, feth invisible seerstars and feth strength D.

The only people who can say "learn to play" without coming across as an arrogant nit are people who play armies that are commonly acknowledged as being weak or sub-optimal.

Even then, you'd be shocked how many people light into me as a Sisters player when I tell them that I win because I learned to play...

Look... I want to imagine for a second that you are the subject matter expert on something... and someone is complaining to you about how to do something... would it be better to tell them to figure it out, or would it be better to give people some ideas of how to figure it out???

Telling someone to learn to play is not the right way to say it... telling them to learn new strategies to make their army better is the right way to say it.

HOWEVER.... make life easier and give them ideas how to beat it, that solves the problem.

Granted there are some match ups that are going to be garbage no matter what...

Perfect example is Marine bike army versus Green Tide army... the marine bikes are going to struggle very hard against someone who understands how to use their orks... and by struggle I mean they are going to most likely be tabled by turn 3...

If you run into a TFG in the morning, you ran into a TFG.
If you run into TFGs all day, you're the TFG.

 deviantduck wrote:
If you run into a TFG in the morning, you ran into a TFG.
If you run into TFGs all day, you're the TFG.

Exactly

Dman137 wrote:

People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of

L2P is not a good place to start an argument. I'm fine with playing Eldar, but you're not going to win people over by being a "Suck it up, and L2P" kind of person.

How about "Learn 2 Post, whiner!"

Does that help you at all? Do you feel better now that I told you that?

Didn't think so. Treat people the way you want to be treated.

In casual games I can understand the hesitation to play against an Eldar list. Really depends on communication though and talking to your opponent. If you have a good gaming group than most issues cam be sorted out before a model touches the table.

However the Eldar hate in tournament play is pretty lame. Like mentioned before, tournaments are the most competitive settings with people who are expected to be playing to win. Getting upset at cheese-laden lists makes me wonder why you would sign up in the first place.

 clamclaw wrote:
In casual games I can understand the hesitation to play against an Eldar list. Really depends on communication though and talking to your opponent. If you have a good gaming group than most issues cam be sorted out before a model touches the table.

However the Eldar hate in tournament play is pretty lame. Like mentioned before, tournaments are the most competitive settings with people who are expected to be playing to win. Getting upset at cheese-laden lists makes me wonder why you would sign up in the first place.

Like going to a drag strip in a Honda and crying that the Vette beat you

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

Have you read the Eldar codex? It's almost the very definition of overpowered. And yes, people also complain plenty about Decurion Necrons and the Gladius and the War Convocation.

There's only so much "L2P" you can do when you're codex is outclassed in many ways.

I'm not saying that Eldar are unbeatable. They aren't. But if the Eldar player is going all-out with the cheese, there are only a few lists that can stand a chance of winning.

I wouldn't worry about it. It's a stretch for SM or DA players to say that Eldar outclass their codex and the necron book is straight up better. And SM are the vast majority of armies so I don't see how you're not getting games unless everyone in your club runs sisters and dark Eldar or something.

Eldar hate is overblown and getting pretty old.

There are what 3 units that pose a serious problem and nobody can plan around that? Really?

I play Eldar. I win some, I lose some. Never had anyone at the club refuse to play me no matter what list I bring.

I simply think it is sad that people are refusing to step out of their cookie-cutter comfort zone and not trying to think of a way around the problematic units.

LEAVE ELDAR ALONE



Honestly the Stigma tagging of all armies needs to stop.

but it doesn't mean you dont deserve it.

Yeah this thread is definitely beating a dead horse.

"L2P lol" is about as productive as the logical response, which is: If you aren't getting games playing Eldar, then buy a new army.

Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. It's a stretch for SM or DA players to say that Eldar outclass their codex and the necron book is straight up better. And SM are the vast majority of armies so I don't see how you're not getting games unless everyone in your club runs sisters and dark Eldar or something.

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Mutiquotes! Multiquotes everywhere!

Erik_Morkai wrote:Eldar hate is overblown and getting pretty old.

There are what 3 units that pose a serious problem and nobody can plan around that? Really?

I play Eldar. I win some, I lose some. Never had anyone at the club refuse to play me no matter what list I bring.

I simply think it is sad that people are refusing to step out of their cookie-cutter comfort zone and not trying to think of a way around the problematic units.

The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

Could be worse. When the Eldar codex was released, there were eight ongoing threads hating on the Eldar.

Desubot wrote:LEAVE ELDAR ALONE



Honestly the Stigma tagging of all armies needs to stop.

but it doesn't mean you dont deserve it.

I agree. It's not like Eldar have a monopoly on OP and unbalanced units in 40k. But it doesn't change the fact that Eldar have access to those units.

master of ordinance wrote:Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

Guard are definitely on the back foot against Eldar, and if the Eldar player brings all the cheese there's very little Guard can do. But if the Eldar player doesn't go full cheddar, the Guard do stand a chance, though it's still an uphill struggle in most cases.

krodarklorr wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. It's a stretch for SM or DA players to say that Eldar outclass their codex and the necron book is straight up better. And SM are the vast majority of armies so I don't see how you're not getting games unless everyone in your club runs sisters and dark Eldar or something.

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/misfire-comics-34-bad-to-the-wraithbone.html

I love the Eldar. I find my games against them are some of the most difficult in the game due to how they move. People also seem to like playing against my Eldar, but I think that's because it's 66% Harlequins ;-).

(I own Eldar, Harlequins, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and pod-less Space Marines)

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines would like a word about dealing with Wraithkinghts, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Bonus points if the solution doesn't involve allies.

Pask Punishers do pretty well against Wraith Knights as long as it fires first, and are pretty much immune to Scatterbikes with careful positioning.

However, it's a very expensive named HQ requiring you to take another buddy in the unit (minimum buy-in around 400 points), you can only take 1, the WK can very easily one-shot it, and Scatterbikes have the maneuverability to get around to the side and do damage.


Not like it really needs to be said, but the problem with Eldar is that their power units are simultaneously amazingly powerful, very durable, and highly maneuverable without the "pay to play" price tag typically associated with units that have the "triple threat" outlined above.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines would like a word about dealing with Wraithkinghts, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Bonus points if the solution doesn't involve allies.

Imperial guard: FW artillery carriage + ignore cover for the scatter bikes or a Moo and ignore cover order works too. lots of dudes for Deep strike denialing Wraith guide d flamer things. Take it down order and lots of las cannons or other goodies against wraith knight (1) (more than 3 is slowed) or all together ignore all of that and take more bodies than there are table space and bore your opponent to death.

Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

He is in the air, and what do you think 4 ap 3 s6 torrent flamers will do to scat bikes?

War Kitten wrote:
I do feel bad for the eldar players who got into the army because of the fluff/aesthetics and who run fluffy lists. The stigma against eldar has gotten so bad that even those who play fun lists can't get a game in because people refuse to play them

I decided to build an Iyanden wraith army once. I thought it was really fluffy and pleasant.

That didn't last long.

Belakor also has a 4+ invuln which can be cheesed with the grimoire. But that involves allies. He also has the shrouded power to help out whichever heldrake is most in danger, or at least make one durable so it's less of a target.

I agree with the OP. This forum could do with a lot less hate all around. Seeing the hate towards faction players makes my brain cringe in a very "reacting to racism" way. Its silly. Its just a game. I cant imagine refusing a game because of the faction someone plays... But if it's nothing but wraithknights and scatterspam i might ask for a list tone-down.

 Konrax wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

He is in the air, and what do you think 4 ap 3 s6 torrent flamers will do to scat bikes?

As if Scatterbikes care about snapshots.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Belakor also has a 4+ invuln which can be cheesed with the grimoire. But that involves allies. He also has the shrouded power to help out whichever heldrake is most in danger, or at least make one durable so it's less of a target.

I agree with the OP. This forum could do with a lot less hate all around. Seeing the hate towards faction players makes my brain cringe in a very "reacting to racism" way. Its silly. Its just a game. I cant imagine refusing a game because of the faction someone plays... But if it's nothing but wraithknights and scatterspam i might ask for a list tone-down.

I agree with asking to tone the cheese down if that is the case.

The best always are games where both parties have via le armies and the winner can't be determined from the contents of their lists alone.

 Desubot wrote:
Imperial guard: FW artillery carriage + ignore cover for the scatter bikes or a Moo and ignore cover order works too. lots of dudes for Deep strike denialing Wraith guide d flamer things. Take it down order and lots of las cannons or other goodies against wraith knight (1) (more than 3 is slowed) or all together ignore all of that and take more bodies than there are table space and bore your opponent to death.

The MOO scatters wildly (though for 20 points, you shouldn't expect pinpoint bombardment) and is unreliable, but it's not a terrible option at all since you're probably taking a CCS. Have fun keeping one alive though. Bonus points for having the blast scatter off onto another unit of bikers so they can't jink it. Triple bonus points if it lands on something invisible. All the points if it's a Seer council who didn't get fortune off that turn.

Deep striking denial is pointless when your bubblewrap can easily be stripped away to a man before turn 2 and Eldar don't have T1 DS'ers (bar scalpel squadron allies).

That's 41 take it down'ed lascannon shots to drop a wraithknight with a toe in cover. Good luck with that before it gets into your lines and rapes your face off. You're actually better off with ignores cover on the lascannons since that drops it to "only" 27 shots, assuming you're facing the dual wraithcannon one and not the sword/shield one. That's now in the realms of possibility, but it's still not an answer to scatbikes.

Yes, ignores cover artillery batteries are a thing, and they are the guards own cheese, but what if FW isn't allowed in your meta? What do IG and chaos players do then (other than cry in a corner)?

I generally play fluffy chaos lists, and I will refuse to play Eldar as there is no point in the game. In turn, one of my other armies is a Knight household that I only ever bring out for tournaments or if someone asks, for the same reason, there's no point in playing it against fluffy lists. One side simply plays deploy and remove models while the other side rolls dice. There's no malice in refusing a game that's over before the models even touch the table.

I play Chaos because I like the fluff, I play Knights because I can get my Battletech on with big stompy robots blowing up infantry and tanks or dueling with other big stompy robots. Others play Eldar because they like their looks/fluff/whatever and that's fine, but nothing says we can't decide that my Chaos will play his Guard or orks instead of my chaos vs his eldar or my knights vs his orks. The latter 2 are not fun games (generally), but the former can be a fairly good game.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

Granted, I haven't lost to Newdar yet, but still. I don't think the codex is better.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

Ironically, guard don't do too bad against Eldar. Both mass cover saves behind an aegis line and splitting into squads to limit Eldar damage potential is pretty good against them. Also, we have an ignores cover order on our blob Lascannons that cause them to take out a serpent in one shot on average. And Battlecannons are the bomb against Scatbikes and Wraithguards.

That is, against the standard Eldar Cheesy List of Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Scytheguard in Serpents. Guard does not have such an advantage against stuff like mounted up dire avengers or night spinners.

Just because a codex is chock full of OP gak doesn't mean they can have all of it at once and most armies are playing to beat space marines and Necrons, not guard.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

Granted, I haven't lost to Newdar yet, but still. I don't think the codex is better.

Tournament results bear out the general trend.

Back in 6th, I played a Swordwind 1500 against an IG list.

I had a single wave serpent. Everything that had anything with s6+ - including two Battlecannons - shot at that thing. I made an unbelievable number of 4+'s, but mostly he failed to hit a ton.

I can get how it sucks that an AV12 can have a 4+. Which certainly pissed him off.
however, the core of his list was two LRs in front of a PFG. So a single AV12 4+ cover was bad, but a *pair* of AV14 with 4++ should be just fine?

(I won because he divided the rest of his fire. Two of my squads were removed, but all but one of my other squads were down to just the Exarch. Seriously, that Plasma Gun will do a *lot* more to a Dark Reaper or Farseer than an AV12 tank. Also, I never shot at the AV14. I had to soak the fire until I could get rear armor shots.)

Yes Eldar are OP. that doesn't mean (1) that all lists are OP or (2) that there is nothing you can do.

(Army swap? Why would I want to do that? When did I decide how this guy is holding his plasma gun? Or where that guy is aiming his pistol? What do those colors mean to me? Why would I not want to play with the army where I have back stories for their company? Or each unit's shrine? If you don't want to face my CW Eldar, fine. Perhaps well play when I bring my Marines, or Tau, or DE, or Corsairs, or Harlies. But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field.)

Bharring wrote:
(Army swap? Why would I want to do that? When did I decide how this guy is holding his plasma gun? Or where that guy is aiming his pistol? What do those colors mean to me? Why would I not want to play with the army where I have back stories for their company? Or each unit's shrine? If you don't want to face my CW Eldar, fine. Perhaps well play when I bring my Marines, or Tau, or DE, or Corsairs, or Harlies. But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field.)

This is obviously aimed at calling out the kind of abusive WAAC lists that don't care about fluff or backstory anyway, only final rankings.

Obviously there's a huge divide between players who are looking for fun experiences -- fair, thematic, interesting -- and the peeps who mostly want as much of a lopsided blowout as possible to get a better tourney score, and see casual games as "training".

My 2 cents.

There used to be armies in the past (or units) that people have shelved until the next codex comes out simply because they are way underpowered/useless and can never win games.

Somehow we got to a point where a codex (Eldar) or, more specifically, certain units (Wraithlord, scatterbikes, Seer Council) are so good that they almost need to be shelved outside of competitive play.

So how do we fix this? Unfortunately for now its going to be like that until the next Eldar codex comes out.

But as a temporary measure, just dont take scatterbikes, wraithlords, or seer councils to friendly games (its possible that ANY eldar jetbike now has this stigma).

Another possibility that could be legit...is see if your local players that are refusing games would be willing to play against the Eldar 6th edition codex.

I'm not saying these people are right to refuse to play (I'd play you).

Dman137 wrote:


Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.

Gotta call BS here. I've seen just as much enmity directed towards crons, with their non-interactive near-invincibility, tau, with their sit-back-and-shoot auto-pilot strategy.

And of course, woe be unto you if you play marines. Because apparently as a marine player you automatically own inquisition, some sisters, assassins, admech, skitarii, Knights, 50 drop pods, some Astra militarum, tons of grav units, and a dozen chapters worth of marine special characters, in addition to all the marines you actually have. If you don't own those $20000+ worth of models, then you deserve to lose because you're not "learning to play" and "adapting."

TL;DR: no bro, try playing anything imperial or tactically-unengaging-yet-strong like tau or crons. You haven't even begun to see the depths of army hate.

Pretty much everything but the full company in the space marines dex is actually pretty balanced

Drop pods might be insane but mostly only with allies that it actually gets broken

"Army swap? Why would I want to do that?"

Because then I can inflict BA on you.

" But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field."

I can almost guarantee your marines are not as tough as your Eldar. Unless you normally rock out invis cent stars with your marine list. Random Eldar units from a hat are still better than BA, lol.

wraithknights and dcannons aren't what make eldar stupid. i sold my eldar army when the new book came out because of scat bikes. 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes was fine. allowing every single troop model in your whole army to have 4s6 shots is a load of bull. no other army gets to do that; especially not on something so fast, survivable etc.

DE jet bikes get bad armour AND have to spread the weapons around. hows that make sense?

im trying to build competitive chaos marines. your list for da boyz is getting heckled because its taking advantage of a comp that gives eldar an exponential boost that most armies cant compete with.

you can talk about necrons and space marines being competitive, and ill agree they are. but they dont do anything so broken that it just makes you shake your head.

Wave Serpents were stupid in the old book. that quantity of high strength ignore cover shots broke SO many armies. so many armies that rely on cover suddenly know that when they show up to a tournament theyre going to play armies that completely negate that and its going to be spammed.

Now they fix serpents and break bikes. i havent heard one person complaining (much) about wraithknights or the D. its the scat bikes.

I applaud eldar players who either dont use them, use them, like they used to be or at the very least, dont spam them. its a well written book where pretty much every unit could be used in some sense.

but dont sit there and cry about people whining when you show up with a TROOP unit that is absurdly undercosted and able to bring heavy weapons to an extent that no other army can even come close to. it's ludicris.

how would you feel if every single space marine bike could strap on grav guns? like.. come on.

you sound like a rich person complaining about paying too much tax. #toptierproblems

I you play Eldar don't complain when people don't want to play you. They have been consistently THE top tier codex for years, it was a predictable trend.

If you like Eldar so much proxy them as something else. IG w/ a Imperial Knight (Wraithknight).

If you refuse to proxy then it isn't because you like the fluff, or the aesthetic, it is because you want to win. Army swap, whatever. Doesn't change the fact you're playing the codex where every option is a ABOVE AVERAGE unit.

"Go play with your Necron friends and recreate the War in Heaven, D-weapons against Saves that work against them." - is what I want to say, but we need more xenos in 40k.

.

bs.

For most units and options in the Eldar 'dex, SM have similarly powered options.

Rangers? Sniper scouts.

Guardians w/ a BL? Lascannon Tac squad.

DAs? Plas Tac squad

Scorpions? ASM.

Wraithblades? Termies.

Falcons? Razorbacks on the cheap, or laspred+rhino for the same points.

Vyper? Landspeeder.

Autarch? A poor Captain.

Scatter Bikes and Distort aren't the entirety of the book. Its better than it should be, but there is a lot that isn't OP.

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

Go balls to the wall at a tournament, that's what it's all about, but bring a powerhouse list of any faction and that gak attitude to a casual game and I'll call you a tosser and walk away - simple as that. Don't try to force your play style onto the casual, narrative players - it only makes you TFG.

Bharring wrote:
bs.

For most units and options in the Eldar 'dex, SM have similarly powered options.

Rangers? Sniper scouts.

Guardians w/ a BL? Lascannon Tac squad.

DAs? Plas Tac squad

Scorpions? ASM.

Wraithblades? Termies.

Falcons? Razorbacks on the cheap, or laspred+rhino for the same points.

Vyper? Landspeeder.

Autarch? A poor Captain.

Scatter Bikes and Distort aren't the entirety of the book. Its better than it should be, but there is a lot that isn't OP.

Not BS. I can take random Eldar units and massacre you if you tried to use my BA.

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

And whining about whining is better...how?

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.

Gonna have to stop you here, because this is flat out false

Clearly you haven't spent enough time reading around, both of these books get plenty of hate, Necrons possibly still even moreso than Eldar. Hell we've had at least one, I think possibly two, about Necrons, in the last few days.

People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Ah, the classic "L2P" response, and just as classically lacking in examples to support its case.

One must acknowledge that many armies simply don't have proper tools to "adapt" to this on anything near an equal or consistent basis. This isn't unique to Eldar, but they're amongst the few that it's a very real issue with.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

No, but that doesn't mean it's not an uninformed stance either.

Real talk... any one around the blacksburg Va area? I will bring blood angels and you bring you eldar army... I will most likely win (almost assuredly) we will video it... post it here and settle this argument ... heck we can run multiple lists against one BA list

i havent heard one person complaining (much) about wraithknights or the D.

My only issue with D is that its existence makes land raiders/monoliths etc get benched even more than before in a TAC environment. (As if gauss/haywire/grav/melta/lance weren't enough to do that.)


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Thyhadras wrote:
Real talk... any one around the blacksburg Va area? I will bring blood angels and you bring you eldar army... I will most likely win (almost assuredly) we will video it... post it here and settle this argument ... heck we can run multiple lists against one BA list

What's the BA list have in it, out of curiosity?

Thyhadras wrote:
Real talk... any one around the blacksburg Va area? I will bring blood angels and you bring you eldar army... I will most likely win (almost assuredly) we will video it... post it here and settle this argument ... heck we can run multiple lists against one BA list

I would be flabbergasted if you could pull this off.

Martel732 wrote:

Thyhadras wrote:
Real talk... any one around the blacksburg Va area? I will bring blood angels and you bring you eldar army... I will most likely win (almost assuredly) we will video it... post it here and settle this argument ... heck we can run multiple lists against one BA list

I would be flabbergasted if you could pull this off.

Simply put, if you live with in 100 miles of Floyd Va (where I live) and you play eldar I am off on Saturday and will come down and bring BA, we can meet up, play a couple games... only request would be not scatter bike because it is something that I am not sure that nearly anything can handle (however, one of the games could definitely be against scatterbike as I still have faith in my ability to play that I could win)

" only request would be not scatter bike "

Really? That's the backbone of the Eldar list.

You just said any random eldar list would walk over blood angels... heck, I would play scatter bike and most likely stomp it as well... but... then again I would not run a single assault marine... and probably no more than 10 tactical marines

Thyhadras wrote:
You just said any random eldar list would walk over blood angels... heck, I would play scatter bike and most likely stomp it as well... but... then again I would not run a single assault marine... and probably no more than 10 tactical marines

Fair enough, I suppose. I do think that a unit by unit comparison greatly favors the Eldar over BA.

Some of them sure.... but compare eldrad to meph... compare prince autarch guy to Dante.... compare anything not on bike to stern guard, (do they have a flier) if so look at the storm raven... you have some beast units in your dex... just gotta remember that tactical marines and assault marines are only there to make a legal list.

Thyhadras wrote:
Some of them sure.... but compare eldrad to meph... compare prince autarch guy to Dante.... compare anything not on bike to stern guard, (do they have a flier) if so look at the storm raven... you have some beast units in your dex... just gotta remember that tactical marines and assault marines are only there to make a legal list.

I actually consider nearly everything in the BA codex subpar. Mephiston being stuck at AP 3 really kills him, Dante is a meh LoW, and the Stormraven simply garbage. (66 pts/HP? LOL what?) Sternguard are solid, but targeted quickly and removed.

How is the storm raven garbage? and dante is a meh LoW??? compared to what? compared to a stompa? or compared to marneus calgar?

If you look at this game in basic statistic terms you are really failing to see a lot of the variables... The storm raven is one of the best fliers in the game.

Thyhadras wrote:
How is the storm raven garbage? and dante is a meh LoW??? compared to what? compared to a stompa? or compared to marneus calgar?

If you look at this game in basic statistic terms you are really failing to see a lot of the variables... The storm raven is one of the best fliers in the game.

I can assure you that is poor. It's one of my favorite things for my opponent to have wasted their points on. Starts in reserve, has mediocre firepower and few enough HPs that it can be downed by snap shots if necessary.

Dante is a melee element in a shooting game and costs over 200 pts. That is the definition of meh. For a little more Eldar can get Str D shooting on a gargantuan monstrous creature.

So Assault Marines lose to Striking Scorpions, because Mephy is only AP3?

Guardians kick ass because of SD on units not in the list?

Dante is boss when you're playing against the other low tier books. When you compare against the prices the top tier books pay and what they get for it, he starts to look less appealing. 220 in the cron book can get you just shy of a minimal canoptek harvest formation.

I don't like 7e Mephy because he pays for T5 and doesn't benefit from it without walking alongside bikes or allying with centurions. Riding with marines means majority t4 outside challenges.

The storm raven is a neat flyer, and if the opponent also has a flyer, the raven has good odds of winning a head to head. The issue is that it's also incredibly expensive, and if an opponent doesn't have a high value target for it to kill, it's very difficult for it to pay for itself in game.

I see that you aren't even aware of it the eldar have a flyer. Perhaps you should go read through their book before making claims about them. One of their flyers vector dances, shoots 2 str D blasts, and is also a ml2 psyker, and costs less than the storm raven, for example.

Bharring wrote:
So Assault Marines lose to Striking Scorpions, because Mephy is only AP3?

Guardians kick ass because of SD on units not in the list?

Please elaborate.


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niv-mizzet wrote:
Dante is boss when you're playing against the other low tier books. When you compare against the prices the top tier books pay and what they get for it, he starts to look less appealing. 220 in the cron book can get you just shy of a minimal canoptek harvest formation.

I don't like 7e Mephy because he pays for T5 and doesn't benefit from it without walking alongside bikes or allying with centurions. Riding with marines means majority t4 outside challenges.

The storm raven is a neat flyer, and if the opponent also has a flyer, the raven has good odds of winning a head to head. The issue is that it's also incredibly expensive, and if an opponent doesn't have a high value target for it to kill, it's very difficult for it to pay for itself in game.

I see that you aren't even aware of it the eldar have a flyer. Perhaps you should go read through their book before making claims about them. One of their flyers vector dances, shoots 2 str D blasts, and is also a ml2 psyker, and costs less than the storm raven, for example.

It's actually really hard for a Stormraven to kill a Helldrake now, which was its #1 priority all along. Other flyers have the same problems as the Stormraven, only a little less so usually.

You're saying that its BS that my Eldar lists aren't more scary than my SM lists.

You argue this by saying that random things from the Eldar dex will beat BA.

The odds of SD being in a random Eldar list isn't that great, whether or not you weight the random for legal bound lists and/or fluff.

Bharring wrote:
You're saying that its BS that my Eldar lists aren't more scary than my SM lists.

You argue this by saying that random things from the Eldar dex will beat BA.

The odds of SD being in a random Eldar list isn't that great, whether or not you weight the random for legal bound lists and/or fluff.

Eldar don't need StrengthD to make a mockery of BA lists. The sheer ineffectiveness of BA units does that for them.

The Crimson Hunter will take down the BA flyer. Then get dropped from boltguns or whatever. Its an AV10 on all facing, but has amazing firepower.

The Hemlock is the real OP flyer. But it can't touch the BA flyer, oddly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you can't envision BAs doing anything to an army of t3 on foot, with a lot of 4+ and 5+, mostly with short range, you might want to think about it for a while.

Bharring wrote:
The Crimson Hunter will take down the BA flyer. Then get dropped from boltguns or whatever. Its an AV10 on all facing, but has amazing firepower.

The Hemlock is the real OP flyer. But it can't touch the BA flyer, oddly enough.

But the BA player already lost by bringing an overcosted unit that starts in reserves and so doesn't participate in the entire game. The BA must maximize cost efficiency in every slot.

Or, the BA flyer comes on and wipes a Cast of Players off the table with ease.

Don't confuse "doesn't show at the top table" with "doesn't get used by me".

Have not had the pleasure of playing against the eldar flier... sounds nasty... good thing I have my storm raven to put it out of the sky

Also, the points are there, and they are there for a reason, however, I have never had my storm raven not earn back its points... or here is a crazy idea... holding objectives in a game that is predominately about objectives...

Bharring wrote:
Or, the BA flyer comes on and wipes a Cast of Players off the table with ease.

Don't confuse "doesn't show at the top table" with "doesn't get used by me".

Which players can the thing wipe out with ease, again? For the low, low price of 230 with sponsons? Because otherwise it has about eight shots max on its first turn. Hooray. That's so worth 200 pts.

Are you guys really expecting bolters to take down a flier?

I know its do able and 6s happen but the actual chances are pretty dismal .

Thyhadras wrote:
Have not had the pleasure of playing against the eldar flier... sounds nasty... good thing I have my storm raven to put it out of the sky

Also, the points are there, and they are there for a reason, however, I have never had my storm raven not earn back its points... or here is a crazy idea... holding objectives in a game that is predominately about objectives...

Hard to hold objectives with no models on the board. Eldar have tabled me more times than not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Are you guys really expecting bolters to take down a flier?

I know its do able and 6s happen but the actual chances are pretty dismal .

Some people are under the impression that the boltgun is to be feared and respected.

Actually some people count on this idea called attrition... and you throw enough shots at something and the odds move in your favor... I have lost terminators more often to shooting from stupid ork shoota boys than anything else

Then it's unfortunate indeed that conventional marine lists suffer from a lack of shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thyhadras wrote:
Actually some people count on this idea called attrition... and you throw enough shots at something and the odds move in your favor... I have lost terminators more often to shooting from stupid ork shoota boys than anything else

Terminators also have less durability/pt than a tac marine against Ork shootas. So that was the expected outcome.

Really hope we aren't going to do another comparison between eldar and marine units that serve the same role.
That didn't go so well for the eldar party.

I watched 2 Wraithknights murder my 5 Imperial Knight Titans in less than 3 Turns.

L2P? You better learn to dodge a wrench!

Martel,
Cast of Players is several hundred points. 225 absolute bare minimum, I think, but it will almost always have lots of upgrades. But I suppose that's Harlies, not CWE. I just figured i'd throw out what happened the last time BAs fought my Eldar.

You know who fears and respects Boltguns? Elitists with t3 5+ or even 4+.

Aki,
It will never end well when Guardians are known to wipe the floor with Tacs because Scatter Bikes and Wraiths.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
Cast of Players is several hundred points. 225 absolute bare minimum, I think, but it will almost always have lots of upgrades. But I suppose that's Harlies, not CWE. I just figured i'd throw out what happened the last time BAs fought my Eldar.

You know who fears and respects Boltguns? Elitists with t3 5+ or even 4+.

Aki,
It will never end well when Guardians are known to wipe the floor with Tacs because Scatter Bikes and Wraiths.

I wouldn't say guardians wipe the floor with Tacs, since I've never personally seen them in play.
However, guardians get access to:
A warlock, which while more expensive, blows a sarge right out of the water with conceal and a few other powers. Conceal in a 5+ cover area makes guardians a chore to move or deal with.
A heavy support platform. The platform carries often better weapons then a Tac squad and is harder to remove with a lucky precision shot.

The main difference here, is that tacs are more equivalent to dire avengers then guardians. Guardians are more like...what are those units black templars used to have? Or bolter/chainsword armed scouts (for defenders/storm).

And as I proved in the last thread, marines should be more afraid of avengers then the other way around. Outside of cover, sure, guardians die. But they can be sat in cover to hold an objective with a 3/2+ cover save and a decent gun for less then a full tac squad.


EDIT
When I said didn't end well for the eldar side, I'm implying they lost the argument.

Honestly, I haven't played against Eldar (yet), so the only reason I don't like them is because they're elves. I just don't like elves. Never have, never will. As a new player, and an ork player, I probably won't care if my army gets obliterated when I go up against them.

Now, I do get a bit irked if someone chooses Eldar (or any army) specifically because they're top-teir. I chose orks not because I think they're good, but because I think they're hilarious. I think they look cool and their fluff is loose enough that I can make my own canon for my army. Now, if someone is going to tournaments and is super-srs about it, sure, fine, but that seems to defeat the point for me.

What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

Heres the issue with that, besides being anecdotal evidence and tournament focused to boot, the books existence literally pushes out quite a large portion of other options across the spectrum. And fwiw so does certain builds of crons and marines.

Now I will agree that each eldar player is different and some do like to play those options that are not OP'd or even take the ones that are in moderation, and this is not directed at them. BUT those players are in my experience pretty rare. Thank god we have some around here. However I honestly believe most players literally lack the self restraint to pass on or limit themselves from no brainer OP'd options. Like most great concepts they fall flat when introduced to human nature.

Bharring wrote:
What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

I'm AFB so I may be getting them mixed up with the heavy support options, but don't they come with their own rules, toughness, and armor save? I'm reasonably sure they get relentless, making them pretty good though overpriced.

Bharring wrote:

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

It was CSM returning fire vs avengers running around shooting them up that resulted in CSM getting wiped in 5 turns. We ran them naked and with plasma weapons, the most common loadout, and avengers did better point for point.

Bharring wrote:

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

The DA's don't need cover, though this could happen. The 4+ doesn't help enough to make the marines win (remember, DA are putting out twice as many shots).
They really can't get into rapid fire range without taking a rhino, which dies if something looks at it funny. Against eldar, it won't survive for the 2-3 turns, and even then they would need to disembark and reembark every turn to maintain rapid fire.

There are very few corner case scenarios in which the marines beat DA. I would imagine 3 flamers and drop podding is the only one the marine player can count on happening however.


I'd like to run guardians versus marines but I'm AFB and can't make an equal points squad to a loaded out marine squad. Would be interesting. I'd imagine with battle focus, conceal, and cover, it's probably close.

Bharring wrote:
What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

At least he's doing it. Most posters simply rely on SWAG ("sweet wild-ass guess") and talking out their

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

At least he's doing it. Most posters simply rely on SWAG ("sweet wild-ass guess") and talking out their

If you had read the thread, his math was proven incorrect by another poster doing the math correctly.
Wild accusations were made by the eldar players about how much better marines are. When the math was run, it turns out the DA are a lot better than marines in that match up.

Talking out their....bleep...indeed

Hey I'll take 2 mathematicians blundering their way towards understanding over the typical Dakka drama queens any day.

As they say, to err is human!

Theoryhammer is the greatest battle of them all

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

I can see why your soft scores get tanked.

I'm willing to at least admit my CentStar is dirty cheese, and that the new Codex: Marines is a bit silly.

Corrected the math? Like the time you ran the numbers without cover to show that that my numbers that explicitly state a 5+ cover were wrong?

Or the time that the numbers were run based on BS5 a3 from the formation?

Or all the talk of an Exarch without Precision Shots sniping the special/heavy weapons?

As for why DAs would go through terrain, because the CSM run the show. If they don't do their exact, controllable counter every round, the Marines win.

And it appears there's still a difference in methodology! Our hopes have been dashed -- nothing is resolved!

Who will be proven the better master of theoryhammer? Bharring, or the guy who's post I didn't read?

Will Martel732 reach his breaking point and forever give up playing Blood Angels?

Will Dman137 be accepted rather than hated for playing Eldar?

Will Filch's 5 IK titans ever win a match against Wraithknights?

Tune in tomorrow for our next exciting episode of "Dakka Dakka 40k General Discussion"!!!

Yoyoyo wrote:
And it appears there's still a difference in methodology! Our hopes have been dashed -- nothing is resolved!

Who will be proven the better master of theoryhammer? Bharring, or the guy who's post I didn't read?

Will Martel732 reach his breaking point and forever give up playing Blood Angels?

Will Dman137 be accepted rather than hated for playing Eldar?

Will Filch's 5 IK titans ever win a match against Wraithknights?

Tune in tomorrow for our next exciting episode of "Dakka Dakka 40k General Discussion"!!!

You're exalted.

Exalted EDIT Gahhhh ya beat me

I'll take both!

LOL

Although I think the overall consensus of the thread is that the Eldar hate should continue.

No, the hate is therapeutic.

It does not need to stop, those players are riding the wave of the powerful codex of maximum GW favoritism.

It is like being the favored child in a large family: you will be hated but reap the benefits all you can while it lasts.

Learn to play...... You have some arrogance. Especially coming from a guy running crazy cheese eldar. It's easy to hate on the haters and tell people to learn how to play and quit whining when you always win and never have to go past turn 3 because your d spam and 30" scatbikes have wiped the table. Deny all you want - but if you played a fair list you wouldn't be dealing with the whimpering and hence wouldn't make such a post.

I myself have played crazy powerful lists. My ork speed freaks, DE venomspam, necron disco inferno, and so on. Generally I make the list, play a few and if the gaming group says it's too much - it's shelved and kept for tourneys. And even then I'll make a point of telling people I know are playing - "hey I'm taking my super x list for this - I intend to win." Especially if it's a pay to enter and prize up for grabs. If it's a friendly one I take something else.

It's pretty much proven eldar are broken overly stinky Gouda. Necron decurion maybe. Haven't encounterd marine or played sky hammer yet. I'm curious if it's as bad (and since I had the models previously I'm trying it out) but you don't get to run the super list, win and then tell people to learn to play when you win and get the hate. That's callled being a sore winner or TFG.

Maybe YOU should learn to play and bring something low tier. Maybe orks, bugs, etc. Then we will see how loud you can cry.

Eldar were my first army back in the days of 3rd edition. I chose them after watching some guys play in the barracks in Okinawa. There was a chaos guy, IG guy, eldar guy and dark eldar guy. The Eldar army stood out to me due to asthetic and rules sounding cool even though I didn't really understand how the game worked and what was good and what was bad. I don't remember the eldar guy smashing everyone either.

A couple years later I started my army with a hodge podge of stuff I liked, plus the underwealming starter box forces. Almost as soon as I started people are whining about wraithlords (I had one) and starcannons (I would only take one ore two). I was a new player who didn't know the game, was losing frequently and my opponents are whining about me using miniscule amounts of stuff was considered OP. I limited myself to one lord and a couple of starcannons most games I played until the fourth edition codex when both got nerfed because I didn't mind the challenge of winning with less than the best units in the game and preferred for my opponent to not have easy excuses for why they lost.

I learned right out the the gate though that people will complain about Eldar for no reason and without bothering to look at context. Their brain never moves past "Eldar are OP". This prevents them from looking at the actual list being fielded or the skill of the opposing player. Instead they are worked up into a frenzy and outright refuse to play. That apparently has not changed at all.

When the fourth edition codex hit, I finally got enough wraithguard, after an eternity of looking for a good price on ebay, to field an Iyanden army. So I played my first game with two full squads and lost. Then lost the next, then the next, then the next, then the next... Somewhere in the midst of it I lost to a guy grumbling about how wraithlords were OP and my whole army was OP as he beat me soundly. The losing streak as I started with that army rose to around 8 before I finally had the right balance and tactics to begin winning, then winning consistently. That experience reinforced the idea that players will whine about Eldar being OP without any actual thought to what they are facing. He was still stuck in complaints from the previous codex, whining about stuff that had been nerfed still being OP and not recogizing that my army lacked mobility, ranged killing power and could easily be tarpitted and neutralized.

But it wasn't limited to my Eldar. Around that time I started playing Dark Eldar. Their book was 8 years old or something like that. They had one good option for taking out armor, the dark lance, which they could take in abundance. Dark Eldar were very hard to win with, and rarely played, but I liked the challenge so I went with it. The cries of OP and cheese persisted there too. The math on lances to take out a vehicle AV12-14 was something like 1/9. So basically if all my lances fired in a given turn I could take out one vehicle. I had to take plenty because if I faced a list with more than one or two vehicles, I would be helpless against them without plenty of lances. But people would complain about one of the most outdated, weakest armies being cheesy. I never bothered to shoot at monoliths because doing so was just a waste of firepower. I had to accept that they would do whatever they wanted the entire game (like teleporting warriors out of cc so my wyches could be rapid fired to death) and try as hard as possible for phase out.

Playing both Eldar and Dark Eldar I would hear grumbles from time to time about how they were OP while watching players make terrible tactical decisions leading to their losses. Try sending a sacrificial lamb to be killed by the scary cc unit, move other units away from it and wait for that cc unit to be stranded in the open in rapid fire range rather than having all you units in a nice tight blob where I can easily bounce from one to the next to the next while never getting shot.

The point of all of this is that the cries of Eldar OP that I've heard in this thread are much like the cries I've heard for years. They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining. No effort is made to evaluate individual armies on the merits. Maybe the units are individually too strong, but if the Eldar player isn't very good you should be able to beat him. Or maybe he is good and deliberately chose things that are weaker or don't synergize well and you should be able to compete. I am convinced though that some who play against Eldar are unable to see the flaws and weaknesses in an Edar list and develop a plan to capitalize on them. And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do. They need to realize they aren't as good as they think they are and Eldar (or any other army for that matter) aren't as unbeatable as they think and do something about it by looking for new tactics or working to develop them themselves. That often won't happen because it is much easier to dismiss their failures as being due to the other guy having an unfair advantage rather than accept the more troubling reality that they aren't as good as they think they are.

Eldar don't win all the tournaments. Many players are able to beat them and beat them consistently. You probably can too especially if you don't work yourself up into a defeatest mindset before you even begin.

Now before you come back at me with tales of how I'm an Eldar elitist, I will freely admit that OP stuff exists. As I noted above, I made efforts to limit my use of those things in the past. I will also admit that Eldar can draw people to the army because they may have some easy win options they find appealing. They can win many games content with their superiority as a player never realizing it is more to do with the tools they have available than their skills at game play. So people with a wildly unrealistic understanding of their personal skill can be found amongst winning Eldar players, just as much as amongst losing Mon Keigh players.

I will also note that GW ticks me off when they do things that makes it so you basically can't field something due to something else being way over the top. When whole army concepts are more or less unplayable because something else is too hard a counter while still being viable against plenty of other builds, there is a real problem. I'll acknowledge that. But throwing out the whole codex because certiain portions of it, if taken to extremes invalidate armies is going overboard as well. Maybe step back a second and look at what your opponent actually brought. He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff and not be deserving of reproach. He may have deliberately or in ignorance chosen things that won't synergize well producing an army that is less than the sum of its parts giving you a good chance to win.

" And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do."

You take my BA, and then try to learn to play. Let me know how that works out for you. I'll be scatterlasering everyone to death with your list as you die in transit.

" He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff"

I have never known an Eldar player who did this. Not in 2nd. Not in 3rd. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. Not in 7th.

" They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining"

Pretty sure I didn't imagine their 2nd ed codex. Or their 3rd. Or their 6th. Or their 7th. Try again.

"Eldar don't win all the tournaments."

That's because they gimp them.

Took a better read of the OP post.
Yep, competitive play is the thing of surmounting obstacles.
Problem is, it is not a "competitive" game.

Eldar is certainly the easiest for maximizing the impact of all the randomness that is 7th edition 40k which is the smart way to start.

Yes, sure, "learn to play" just takes a heck of a lot less effort using Eldar.

Plus the "rock paper scissors" aspect of list building sure makes it easier to tailor a list to beat the OP but typically opponents would not keep you in mind when building a list.

It is not all about you!

@martel

Did you not read my post? I know that it is long, but I did explain that when I started in 3rd edition, a wet behind the ears newb with a lousy army of random stuff getting beat by veterans they would complain if I took one wraithlord, or two starcannons. I didn't take that as an invitation to get more since those were the OP things, but played with a self imposed limit on them and tried other stuff and people would still gripe. Two star cannons were in no way OP expecially with only one platform (my wraithlord) that had BS4. I could kill one or two marines a turn with them and would take the whole game to get my points back if I was lucky.

Maybe you are really unlucky with only having Eldar players who only play the best stuff available in the codex, but I (when I played) was an Eldar player that listend to people's complaints and limited what I took based on that. I know I'm not the only one who did that. And I'm telling you that in my experience, people have a bad habit of making the problem a lot worse than it is. Two starcannons in 3rd edition were not something the cry about, but people did anyway because of that time someone brought twenty. So since one guy brought twenty, I have to listen to whining about 2?

I wouldn't run from the challenge of trying to find a way to be competitive with any army. I just wrote about how I played one of the weakest, hardest most out of date codexes in 4th and 5th editions. The monolith was virtually invincible for my army, but I didn't complain about it. I accepted that and focused on ways I could be effective against Necrons rather than wasting energy wringing my hands in despair at its invincibility.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't deliberately pulling quotes out of context to misrepresent what I was saying and that you just used small snippets to keep it short. The LTP comment was part of a larger whole describing with examples ways people are themselves overly simplistic and at times simply wrong in their evaluation of Eldar.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Eldar were my first army back in the days of 3rd edition. I chose them after watching some guys play in the barracks in Okinawa. There was a chaos guy, IG guy, eldar guy and dark eldar guy. The Eldar army stood out to me due to asthetic and rules sounding cool even though I didn't really understand how the game worked and what was good and what was bad. I don't remember the eldar guy smashing everyone either.

A couple years later I started my army with a hodge podge of stuff I liked, plus the underwealming starter box forces. Almost as soon as I started people are whining about wraithlords (I had one) and starcannons (I would only take one ore two). I was a new player who didn't know the game, was losing frequently and my opponents are whining about me using miniscule amounts of stuff was considered OP. I limited myself to one lord and a couple of starcannons most games I played until the fourth edition codex when both got nerfed because I didn't mind the challenge of winning with less than the best units in the game and preferred for my opponent to not have easy excuses for why they lost.

I learned right out the the gate though that people will complain about Eldar for no reason and without bothering to look at context. Their brain never moves past "Eldar are OP". This prevents them from looking at the actual list being fielded or the skill of the opposing player. Instead they are worked up into a frenzy and outright refuse to play. That apparently has not changed at all.

When the fourth edition codex hit, I finally got enough wraithguard, after an eternity of looking for a good price on ebay, to field an Iyanden army. So I played my first game with two full squads and lost. Then lost the next, then the next, then the next, then the next... Somewhere in the midst of it I lost to a guy grumbling about how wraithlords were OP and my whole army was OP as he beat me soundly. The losing streak as I started with that army rose to around 8 before I finally had the right balance and tactics to begin winning, then winning consistently. That experience reinforced the idea that players will whine about Eldar being OP without any actual thought to what they are facing. He was still stuck in complaints from the previous codex, whining about stuff that had been nerfed still being OP and not recogizing that my army lacked mobility, ranged killing power and could easily be tarpitted and neutralized.

But it wasn't limited to my Eldar. Around that time I started playing Dark Eldar. Their book was 8 years old or something like that. They had one good option for taking out armor, the dark lance, which they could take in abundance. Dark Eldar were very hard to win with, and rarely played, but I liked the challenge so I went with it. The cries of OP and cheese persisted there too. The math on lances to take out a vehicle AV12-14 was something like 1/9. So basically if all my lances fired in a given turn I could take out one vehicle. I had to take plenty because if I faced a list with more than one or two vehicles, I would be helpless against them without plenty of lances. But people would complain about one of the most outdated, weakest armies being cheesy. I never bothered to shoot at monoliths because doing so was just a waste of firepower. I had to accept that they would do whatever they wanted the entire game (like teleporting warriors out of cc so my wyches could be rapid fired to death) and try as hard as possible for phase out.

Playing both Eldar and Dark Eldar I would hear grumbles from time to time about how they were OP while watching players make terrible tactical decisions leading to their losses. Try sending a sacrificial lamb to be killed by the scary cc unit, move other units away from it and wait for that cc unit to be stranded in the open in rapid fire range rather than having all you units in a nice tight blob where I can easily bounce from one to the next to the next while never getting shot.

The point of all of this is that the cries of Eldar OP that I've heard in this thread are much like the cries I've heard for years. They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining. No effort is made to evaluate individual armies on the merits. Maybe the units are individually too strong, but if the Eldar player isn't very good you should be able to beat him. Or maybe he is good and deliberately chose things that are weaker or don't synergize well and you should be able to compete. I am convinced though that some who play against Eldar are unable to see the flaws and weaknesses in an Edar list and develop a plan to capitalize on them. And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do. They need to realize they aren't as good as they think they are and Eldar (or any other army for that matter) aren't as unbeatable as they think and do something about it by looking for new tactics or working to develop them themselves. That often won't happen because it is much easier to dismiss their failures as being due to the other guy having an unfair advantage rather than accept the more troubling reality that they aren't as good as they think they are.

Eldar don't win all the tournaments. Many players are able to beat them and beat them consistently. You probably can too especially if you don't work yourself up into a defeatest mindset before you even begin.

Now before you come back at me with tales of how I'm an Eldar elitist, I will freely admit that OP stuff exists. As I noted above, I made efforts to limit my use of those things in the past. I will also admit that Eldar can draw people to the army because they may have some easy win options they find appealing. They can win many games content with their superiority as a player never realizing it is more to do with the tools they have available than their skills at game play. So people with a wildly unrealistic understanding of their personal skill can be found amongst winning Eldar players, just as much as amongst losing Mon Keigh players.

I will also note that GW ticks me off when they do things that makes it so you basically can't field something due to something else being way over the top. When whole army concepts are more or less unplayable because something else is too hard a counter while still being viable against plenty of other builds, there is a real problem. I'll acknowledge that. But throwing out the whole codex because certiain portions of it, if taken to extremes invalidate armies is going overboard as well. Maybe step back a second and look at what your opponent actually brought. He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff and not be deserving of reproach. He may have deliberately or in ignorance chosen things that won't synergize well producing an army that is less than the sum of its parts giving you a good chance to win.

You my friend hit the nail on the head, some one said before that there aren't OP army's just OP players. I myself admit that when going to to a event I bring the cheese (or what I think is cheese) might not be the best army out there but I try to bring something I feel confident will win and with confidence in yourself and the list you bring you tend to have some success, in my experenes I have had some good events and some bad. When I was learning how to play I'm pretty sure I went a long time without ever winning but every game I lost I took something from it and always tried to improve my tactics and army. And I feel like now people (not all but some) just give up instead of trying find ways to beat things, me for example I try to play everyday if I can against different army's (strong lists, or list I think will beat me) and try to see if there is a way for me to win or at the very least survive. In regards to my post and saying LTP I apologize for my wording, I should have said learn a new strategy or find ways to beat the army or army's you no your going to face.

In a frendly game I usually make up some random list I want to try or I'll tell my opponent "hey I want to try this out to see how it works" and those games are fun, but I've ran into people that just me saying the words eldar, they get all bent out of shape and just refuse to play, regardless of the list I want to use. As for GT events and what not, my big problem is that some people (not all) will bomb my soft scores all because of the army I'm using, I have played against some pretty cheesy army's (screemerstar, centstar, flying circus ect.) and I got my crap pushed in but at the end of the game I don't judge my opponent on his army selection because like me he is there to win. I judge him (or her) on they way they acted during the game, towards me, were they fair, were they a A-hole ect. And I go from there I honestly think in about 15 years of playing I only gave 1 person a zero for sports and that's because he picked up my model and threw it (he's lucky I didn't punch him in the face lol)

But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

Dman137 wrote:


But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

There's no "mystery" or learning to do really. There's nothing new about Eldar that makes them play significantly different than in past editions or iterations. They're just way better at what they did. Wraithguard still are the short-ranged heavy infantry they always were, they just hit insanely way harder than they used to. Jetbikes are just as mobile, survivable, and whatnot as they used to be, they can just pack way more firepower. Likewise Wraithknights are still the T8 multiwound models with tons of mobility and either high capability shooting or CC attacks that they were in the previous book, they're just even harder to kill with even scarier attacks than they used to be.

You're trying to make it out like there's just some mystery people arne't getting when that's a completely false premise. The tools and methods of beating the Eldar haven't changed, they're just less effective. There's nothing really new to learn. The Eldar didn't gain some new key weakness, there's nothing about their fundamental nature that has inherently shifted the ways to beat them, they're just better than they were before, which to many was already pretty top-end. That's a simple reality.

They're also not the only one's complained about. Necrons and the new SM book get tons of flak, Necrons particularly so.

Nope.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:


But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

There's no "mystery" or learning to do really. There's nothing new about Eldar that makes them play significantly different than in past editions or iterations. They're just way better at what they did. Wraithguard still are the short-ranged heavy infantry they always were, they just hit insanely way harder than they used to. Jetbikes are just as mobile, survivable, and whatnot as they used to be, they can just pack way more firepower. Likewise Wraithknights are still the T8 multiwound models with tons of mobility and either high capability shooting or CC attacks that they were in the previous book, they're just even harder to kill with even scarier attacks than they used to be.

You're trying to make it out like there's just some mystery people arne't getting when that's a completely false premise. The tools and methods of beating the Eldar haven't changed, they're just less effective. There's nothing really new to learn. The Eldar didn't gain some new key weakness, there's nothing about their fundamental nature that has inherently shifted the ways to beat them, they're just better than they were before, which to many was already pretty top-end. That's a simple reality.

They're also not the only one's complained about. Necrons and the new SM book get tons of flak, Necrons particularly so.

Again, as you have indirectly pointed out, the problem is with those three units in the Eldar codex, not Eldar as a whole. There are plenty of armies that have no effective counter to Scarbikers, massed D-Weapons, or the Wraithknight. Fortunately, Eldar have units other than Scatbikers and Wraithknights, and not every space elf is carrying a D-Weapon.

This is the internet. People complain about everything around here. A week or two ago we had someone claiming the entire Tau codex was OP, including Vespids and Fire Warrios (and it was an Eldar player too). Suffice it to say, he caught a lot of flak for that. I'll do the same to anyone who claims the entire Eldar codex is OP too.

Face it, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese in this game. Chaos Daemons is still going strong, Tyranids have undercosted FMCs, Grav Centurions are still around, and Admech/Skitarii and Knights are cheesing it out in ways previously not thought possible. All of these are generally considered too cheesy for play outside of tournaments, and we can likewise throw Scatbikers and D-Weapons and Wraithknights into that mix. But the entire Eldar codex? I'd say that's going a bit far.

All we do is sit around steaming in a pile of negativity complaining about how this unit is broken and that unit is OP, and don't realize that there are other options available. Don't go all out with the gouda or only add a bit of cheddar when you're playing for fun. This place could seriously use some perspective. It'll probably die down when someone has a bad game against Necrons or Admech/Skitarii and the whole cycle will begin again, with the same people rehashing the same old arguments in the same kinds of threads. It's beginning to get old, is what I'm saying.

It's not like eldar was obscenely overpowered last night. They have been for the past 7 editions, the past 20 years. The only difference between this edition and the previous one is that they've become more obscenely powerful.

This has gathered the most that guys, L2P nub(such as yourself) powergamers into a single faction, who are unable to play a tactical game fairly, and hence, play the most overpowered easy-mode faction there is.

A lot of the hate is from the overpowered-ness, but a lot is from attitude from eldar players such as yourself. Thanks for reinforcing my gaming group's policy of no eldar allowed. I'll show them this thread tonight.

0 sympathies had. You deserve the hate 100%.

 Filch wrote:
I watched 2 Wraithknights murder my 5 Imperial Knight Titans in less than 3 Turns.

L2P? You better learn to dodge a wrench!

I have to ask how 2 WK's can destroy 6 Imperial Knights in 1-2 turns. It shouldn't be possible, as each WK would have to destroy 1,5 IK's a turn, starting from the very first.

OP, you posted an "unbeatable" Eldar list in the army list forum calling for anybody to challenge it, and responded to everybody who said "I think you would have a hard with X" or "You might struggle fighting a Y list" by basically responding "No! I would do this and that!"
Then you come on here and say "Why all the hate on Eldar? L2P lol!"

In one forum you say "I have an unbeatable Eldar list! Nothing you say will change my mind!" where you say how you would win every situation.
In another you say "Why does everybody hate Eldar? They need to get over themselves!" basically saying other armies can beat you if they knew how to play.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Again, as you have indirectly pointed out, the problem is with those three units in the Eldar codex, not Eldar as a whole.

They're the largest offenders in the codex, but almost every single unit in the codex got buffs, be it Shrouded over just Stealth on Rangers, both Stealth and Shrouded on Scorpions, weapons battery's getting a D weapon option, Fire Dragons effectively getting "AP0", etc. not to mention formations giving multiple units BS5 (at no increase in cost) and other such things.

These aren't necessarily unique issues to the Eldar, as noted, Necrons and Space Marines get similar flak, but what makes the Eldar codex powerful isn't just those three units.

There are plenty of armies that have no effective counter to Scarbikers, massed D-Weapons, or the Wraithknight. Fortunately, Eldar have units other than Scatbikers and Wraithknights, and not every space elf is carrying a D-Weapon.

Enough do have such weapons, and such units form the common core of many, if not most, Eldar lists you see out there, and, as noted, they don't necessarily require them either to be extremely powerful.

My own Eldar army built to a 4E/early 5E paradigm, composed of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, and War Walkers, and I've won all three games I've played with it running the current codex, and felt somewhat dirty doing it (especially BS5 "AP0" Fire Dragons). Hell, in the last two years, that army gained BS4 on all of its vehicles, pseudo rending on all of its shuriken weapons, 5++ saves on its war walkers, 3+ armor on its Fire Dragons, BS5 on most of its Aspect Warriors through formations, Battle Focus for Run & Shoot, and is cheaper to boot. While some may argue that all armies get better over time, In the same timepsan, the 2000pt IG army I built roughly at the same time became a 2215pt list and lost a grip of capability on half the units in the army (e.g. Hydras losing ignoring jink and becoming open topped, chimeras becoming more expensive and losing fire points).

This is the internet. People complain about everything around here. A week or two ago we had someone claiming the entire Tau codex was OP, including Vespids and Fire Warrios (and it was an Eldar player too). Suffice it to say, he caught a lot of flak for that. I'll do the same to anyone who claims the entire Eldar codex is OP too.

I'm not calling out things like Vypers, but there's a lot more in the codex in the "pretty awesome" category than the "pretty bad" category, and especially so when paired with the formations that greatly augment capabilities of units that would otherwise be fine, and lets be honest, the worst units aren't showing up in many lists, casual or not.

Face it, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese in this game.

To be fair, I thought I was rather pretty explicit in acknowledging that multiple times.

Chaos Daemons is still going strong, Tyranids have undercosted FMCs, Grav Centurions are still around, and Admech/Skitarii and Knights are cheesing it out in ways previously not thought possible. All of these are generally considered too cheesy for play outside of tournaments, and we can likewise throw Scatbikers and D-Weapons and Wraithknights into that mix. But the entire Eldar codex? I'd say that's going a bit far.

If we're going to argue that we can't say a book is broken because not every single thing is broken, then I'd argue that that argument is a wee bit silly. You're absolutely right that a lot of these others things exist and are bad, but in many instances are also a lot more confined. Tyranids for example have FMC spam, and that's really about it in terms of "cheese".

Once again, Eldar aren't unique, I'm not trying to make that argument, however they are amongst the worst offenders.

All we do is sit around steaming in a pile of negativity complaining about how this unit is broken and that unit is OP, and don't realize that there are other options available.

Yes, there are, but that's really more a topic of discussion for Eldar players, not their opponents.

it's one thing to say "well just don't bring the scary stuff", but it's another to make it out like that scary stuff isn't a big deal, or that it isn't common even to many casual lists and doesn't run strongly through the core of the army. Same thing with Necrons, running a Decurion, just about whatever you actually take, you will probably steamroll most armies from 2014 books, or at least have a major notable advantage.

Don't go all out with the gouda or only add a bit of cheddar when you're playing for fun. This place could seriously use some perspective. It'll probably die down when someone has a bad game against Necrons or Admech/Skitarii and the whole cycle will begin again, with the same people rehashing the same old arguments in the same kinds of threads. It's beginning to get old, is what I'm saying.

You don't have to participate in the discussions if you don't want to...and I'm not the one making these threads. I am however pointing out that the "L2P" arguments we've seen from other posters are somewhat silly.

Against Eldar my Orks are 1 and 4. The 1 win came because my SAG Big Mek rolled box cars and killed my opponents WK and the next turn it scattered onto a IC with a squad of something or other, basically 1 SAG shot killed about 500points worth of Eldar.

I Have played against footdar, Scat bikes and WKs, I have fought the stupidly OP IC's of Eldar and I have fought against a seer conclave.

The only list that stands a chance against Eldar is the Green Tide which isn't even in the codex its in the supplement. And regardless of what 1 or 2 people say, Playing against a green tide is FETHING boring. 101+ models moving in the movement phase, the shooting phase (run), the assault phase and then either Initiative step or consolidating = longest game turns possible.

SO please all knowing Eldar player, explain to me in what fething world my Orks stand even a remote chance against an AVERAGE Eldar list, barring stupidly amazing luck such as my SAG rolling a 1 in 36 chance not taking scatter into account? Lets do a comparison shall we?

Boyz vs Scat Bikes Winner Eldar
Nobz vs Any Eldar Elite Winner Eldar
Tank Bustas Vs Fire Dragons Winner Eldar
Ghazghkuul or Stompa vs WK Winner Eldar

So what your saying is if I play against an Eldar player who is stupid I have a chance but otherwise im boned.

Outside of game mechanics fluff wise Eldar and Necrons should be the most powerful armies to face... if you are familiar with fluff and the old ones and what not. In game terms yeah they should be hard to fight per fluff. They fought in the war of heavens.... my 2 cents and i have Eldar force but have not played new dex... my main are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Legion Chaos.

In real life as example German Tiger Tanks would be very hard for Sherman Tanks to fight and thus you had to adapt and try to figure out how to fight them. War games are not balanced and if they were i guess that is fine but would lack a realism in some aspects in my opinion. 40k is not balanced, it has structure and options etc.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Face it, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese in this game. [...] Tyranids have undercosted FMCs

I only know the Nids well enough to comment on. Yes, the Flying Dakkafex is great: no argument. What else does the book have that is even remotely competitive? The entire rest of the codex is so decidedly sub-par that anyone else can laugh you off the table before they finish deploying. Over-costed, fragile, weak units with terrible rules... and the Flyrant. The Flyrant would even be an easy fix, as (really) he should only be able to take one pair of Devourers, not two. The other pair of arms are used for his wings, so he essentially has a freebie weapon compared to all other units in the book. Fix the Flyrant and the Nids go from bottom tier to... er... what comes next?

Eldar have some OP options, but once you take them out they still have a top-tier codex filled with extremely good options. A fluffy Biel-Tan list would not be OP (Autarch rather than Seer Council, Dire Avengers rather than Scatterbikes or Wraithguard, etc), but it would still be way better than anything half the other factions in the game could field. I am not in the 'waaah, Eldar ruin the game' camp, but you cannot deny they have one of, if not the, best designed books in the game. If every faction were as well written this game would be a million times better, but some books were written by Cruddace

I've played the scatterbike list twice against two guys in my gaming club. First time I got smashed into the ground and wasn't fun at all. All done by turn two.

The second bloke I survived a bit longer due to air support coming on time. But, on the whole both players were great folks to play who I laughed and had some banter with. Both times were in a tournament setting.

The list honestly depends on you're opposition. And like most of 40k, it's fun if the opponent is fun.

The emperor demands the hate of all xenos, my conscious is clean!

And that they are "slightly" overpowered doesn't help either

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Outside of game mechanics fluff wise Eldar and Necrons should be the most powerful armies to face... if you are familiar with fluff and the old ones and what not. In game terms yeah they should be hard to fight per fluff. They fought in the war of heavens....

Every faction can make any excuse it wants to be "hard to fight". Sure the Eldar & the Necrons fought the War in Heaven. Chaos however is the physical manifestation of the mind, the Imperial Guard is the largest fighting force in the galaxy that outnumbers the Eldar by tens of millions to one, the Tyranids invade without number having shown only the tiniest fraction of their size so far, etc.

When GW made armies "hard" to face like "they should be" in the past, they've killed entire editions, like with Chaos Daemons in 7th edition WHFB.

In real life as example German Tiger Tanks would be very hard for Sherman Tanks to fight and thus you had to adapt and try to figure out how to fight them.

While true, there's something that's not being touched on here...namely that there were only about 1,300 Tiger tanks produced, 1,700 if you want to include the Tiger II, and spread over both the Eastern and Western fronts, facing ~160,000-200,000+ Shermans, T-34's, KV & IS tanks, M10/18/36 tank destroyers, Pershings, ISU's, etc, with more T-34's alone produced between 1941 and 1945 alone than Germany made AFV's of all types from 1933 to 1945 (including SPG's, TD's, and assault guns and early model tanks like Panzer I's and II's).

War games are not balanced

They should be, that's why they're games. and not realism simulators, and they have mechanisms for balancing such. If you look at WW2 games that have TIgers and Shermans, a Tiger is a much larger proportion of a force than a Sherman. To use Flames of War as an example, a Tiger Tank is something like 230pts, a T-34 with hindered soviet doctrine is like 40, a Sherman with is like 50?

and if they were i guess that is fine but would lack a realism in some aspects in my opinion. 40k is not balanced, it has structure and options etc.

40k's problem (and really GW in general) is that they're not interested in trying to make the game balanced.

I played a quick 500 point game against Eldar once.
I only won because Captain Sicarius 1 shotted the Avatar.

Bharring wrote:
Corrected the math? Like the time you ran the numbers without cover to show that that my numbers that explicitly state a 5+ cover were wrong?

I ran both, to show that eldar still would win.

Bharring wrote:

Or the time that the numbers were run based on BS5 a3 from the formation?

I never once ran the numbers assuming BS 5 or the formation. They were always BS 4, and I didn't bother running the exarch separately.

Bharring wrote:

Or all the talk of an Exarch without Precision Shots sniping the special/heavy weapons?

I mentioned precision shots because Chaos marines and regular marines do have to worry about losing a 30+ point model to one randomly. It's why icons aren't widely taken.
Eldar don't have that problem as often. The exarch isn't usually critical to the performance of the squad like special weapons.

Bharring wrote:

As for why DAs would go through terrain, because the CSM run the show. If they don't do their exact, controllable counter every round, the Marines win.

First off, all the DAs have to do is use Battle focus to stay outside of rapid fire range outside of shooting. That's it. It's not exactly a super difficult move to pull off, JSJ has been around for several editions now. One of the complaints against it has never been "Dude, JSJ is so hard to pull off!". Usually the complaint is that you may run out of table space, but luckily the eldar army has some of the best fire power in the game. I believe in our example the eldar needed about ~20" of space, though by the 3rd turn of shooting its most likely over for the marines in terms of making a come back.
How are CSM running the show? They have less offensive output, are slower, and need to be within 12" to do any real damage while the eldar can be at 18? I even assumed an initial round of rapid fire as the eldar would use battle focus to get within 18, and the marines still lost.



For the record, your math was corrected when you did the following;
Ran 5 tactical marines with 2 plasma guns against 7 dire avengers. You said this proved your point, until it was pointed out that you can't take 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad. 1 plasma and 4 bolters lost.

Suggested that tacticals with one load out are better against 2+ saves and MC, while marines with a completely different load out perform better against GEQ. I believe when the numbers were ran it turned out that Eldar tied, it was extremely close, or Eldar pulled ahead quite a bit. With the same loadout. At 18+ inches rather than 12", since your numbers assumed rapid fire everytime.

Claimed that a 10 man squad would win against Dire avengers. You failed to load out the avengers like the marines got, giving them a 20% point advantage. The marines still lost.

Kept suggesting that marines get into rapid fire range round after round without showing how they would accomplish this. I'm sure that, in 4+ cover if maintaining rapid fire range all the time, marines can win (though it is funny that they need cover more than eldar do in this situation) but its not a real scenario.

Later suggested a combi weapon would make the difference, and that your original numbers included a combi weapon and regular weapon. This was a lie, it was pointed out, and the discussion ended.


Never once did I use a BS 5 formation. I think we can all agree that formations are pretty busted. For the discussion, I can't assume a BS 5 since that assumes 2 other squads. I'd have to give the marines a psyker and...Sternguard? Something. It would defeat the purpose and I didn't need it to prove my point.

Battle demi company with Captain Sicarius, Iron clad 'Naught with missiles and devastator cents.

That is all.

Akiasura, trying to use mathhammer or any kind of evidence or proof against Bharring is useless. According to him his Eldar aren't that great and this last codex finally brought them to where they need to be. Nothing in his codex is OP, he suggests that the WK needs a point increase, i thin he said 35-40 points.
Trying to convince him that his Codex isn't op is like trying to convince an Ork that humies aren't tasty.

"Maybe you are really unlucky with only having Eldar players who only play the best stuff available in the codex"

I expect nothing less from Eldar players.

"You my friend hit the nail on the head, some one said before that there aren't OP army's just OP players"

Right. All those OP BA players. Or OP Ork players.

Martel732 wrote:
"Maybe you are really unlucky with only having Eldar players who only play the best stuff available in the codex"

I expect nothing less from Eldar players.

"You my friend hit the nail on the head, some one said before that there aren't OP army's just OP players"

Right. All those OP BA players. Or OP Ork players.

Or dark eldar. You forgot the tons of op dark eldar

kburn wrote:
It's not like eldar was obscenely overpowered last night. They have been for the past 7 editions, the past 20 years. The only difference between this edition and the previous one is that they've become more obscenely powerful.

This has gathered the most that guys, L2P nub(such as yourself) powergamers into a single faction, who are unable to play a tactical game fairly, and hence, play the most overpowered easy-mode faction there is.

A lot of the hate is from the overpowered-ness, but a lot is from attitude from eldar players such as yourself. Thanks for reinforcing my gaming group's policy of no eldar allowed. I'll show them this thread tonight.

0 sympathies had. You deserve the hate 100%.

Apart from the complete banning of Eldar, this post sums up my feelings on this thread and the wider matter quite nicely.


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 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Outside of game mechanics fluff wise Eldar and Necrons should be the most powerful armies to face... if you are familiar with fluff and the old ones and what not. In game terms yeah they should be hard to fight per fluff. They fought in the war of heavens.... my 2 cents and i have Eldar force but have not played new dex... my main are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Legion Chaos.

In real life as example German Tiger Tanks would be very hard for Sherman Tanks to fight and thus you had to adapt and try to figure out how to fight them. War games are not balanced and if they were i guess that is fine but would lack a realism in some aspects in my opinion. 40k is not balanced, it has structure and options etc.

Ahhh so the game should be based on fluff and damn the points. Brilliant! I remember reading a book where a SM singlehandedly took out an entire DE raiding party. So 14pt marines need to be T5 3W 2++ EW with a st8 ap1 assault 3 36" armourbane bolter. Oh and don't forget a reasonable 3+fnp. But we really should throw ignores cover in there as well, he is after all, a whole 14pts.

...I wonder if OP is morgoth.

 Quickjager wrote:
...I wonder if OP is morgoth.

Excellent!

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
...I wonder if OP is morgoth.

Excellent!

Omg, yes. It all makes sense now.

You can give a OP army to someone that isn't a good general (OP player) and they will lose. The combination of both OP players and OP army lists/army's is where things get crazy.

But in like 2 months, everyone is just going to hate in tau since there dex comes out October and word on the street is there getting the same treatment as the eldar got. Further more all this won't matter by this time next year when 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment. Gw doesn't care about how you feel, or what's OP they just want money, and the eldar make them a lot of money, pretty much all the good things in the dex were sold out some for about a month, scatbikes made them so much money they created a whole new box for them just to sell even more lol




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You can give a OP army to someone that isn't a good general (OP player) and they will lose. The combination of both OP players and OP army lists/army's is where things get crazy.

But in like 2 months, everyone is just going to hate in tau since there dex comes out October and word on the street is there getting the same treatment as the eldar got. Further more all this won't matter by this time next year when 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment. Gw doesn't care about how you feel, or what's OP they just want money, and the eldar make them a lot of money, pretty much all the good things in the dex were sold out some for about a month, scatbikes made them so much money they created a whole new box for them just to sell even more lol

First off, Ork players, more than most, seem to dislike playing most Eldar lists. I've come to find, however, that if list-tailoring is feasible for facing Orks - and the Ork player doesn't mind - this can be fixed. Orks want to see some good Krumping. Its not what most Eldar units do. But I usually run as many DAs as I can backed up by Scorpions and Banshees and other CC units. I still need to spread out the Orks, and still need to thin them out before assaulting, but the games usually climax in one big pile, and win or lose, we both tend to have a blast.

In regard to most Ork players I have played, its not that they lose, its that there is no counterplay. They move forward, most Eldar units run away. Change to a more CC oriented Eldar army, and things naturally change!

That and, apparently, a half-dead Nob can punk an unhurt Asurmen in a challenge. Fun times, but dice hated me apparently.

List tailoring shouldn't be necessary, but it does make those games much, much better.

The new book is much worse than the old book. What was my old 1500pt list is now 1407. It lost a number of tricks, but is mostly better. But its Swordwind. Its hardly unbeatable by other casual lists.

Ghaz,
What the hell. Do you even read my posts?

You posted numbers that didn't mesh with mine once, I posted my methodology and where I thought your math was off, and you never got back to me regarding your methodology, or any demo of where mine was wrong.

Aki,
The post where I ran numbers, I made it explicitly clear that I wasn't sure if CSM could take 2 PGs at 5, but alternately they could take a combiplas Instead. That was in the initial post. And you still bitch about it. 5 less points, but one shot only. Would make the attrition more similar to the DAs dying from Storm Bolters, but the CSM would still retain their PG to the last man, where DAs lose firepower with every man lost, losing them twice as fast.

Of course I ran numbers vs TEQ with a PG unit. Isn't that what you take them for? I was very clear about what matchups were for what.

The counter to 2 shots at 12-18" is 0 shots at 18-24. Compared to 1 for Boltgun/PG. Its quite the tradeoff. If you don't believe me, think about the typical distance between deployment. If you cannot start within 24", if you move up 6", an 18" gun can't shoot. A 24" gun just needs to step over the line. Sure, DAs can BF forward, and then eat rapid fire death and lose handily.

The numbers I showed were without Rapid Fire in the head to head. If they were, the Marines would destroy the DAs. By a lot. For the other targets, sure, I did assume they were within 12", but I also assumed they were within 18", and also that CC wasn't an option. That's a 6" window where Marines dominate, a 6" window where DAs win, a 12" window where Marines win again, and then CC where Marines destroy.

I keep hearing about are Tacs are gak because nobody ever takes the things that boltguns fear. Because those things suck ass.

Now I'm being told that those things are OP. And there is no way an Eldar list can be less powerful than a Marine list.

The Eldar dex certainly just got buffs they didn't need. Scorpions can get an amazing cover save if they don't fight. Rangers, who pay Sniper Scout points for t3 5+ and far fewer tools, now Gert shrouded. Its better, but not broken. DAs can get BS2 overwatch instead of Counterattack. They didn't need that, but it doesn't make them OP.

Not all Eldar lists are broken.

(And I take allusions of bad math in the face of showing my work, but with either BS numbers or no numbers at all, as an insult.)

"Now I'm being told that those things are OP."

Better than everyone else's stuff, because...

"The Eldar dex certainly just got buffs they didn't need."

Now we can quibble about the definition of OP, but I'd say a codex getting buffs they didn't need when many other codices are getting nerfs or non-improvements would make that codex OP.

" Change to a more CC oriented Eldar army, and things naturally change! "

Most Eldar players are not going to do this. Scatterbikes backing up is what they will do to Orks. And send in the WK.

So Bharring what your saying is that if you list tailor your entire army to be CC oriented as opposed to bringing a regular list, an ork player will have fun against you. While that would be a lot better then other Eldar lists it would still end with a Eldar victory unless your really gimping yourself.

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Outside of game mechanics fluff wise Eldar and Necrons should be the most powerful armies to face... if you are familiar with fluff and the old ones and what not. In game terms yeah they should be hard to fight per fluff. They fought in the war of heavens.... my 2 cents and i have Eldar force but have not played new dex... my main are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Legion Chaos.

In real life as example German Tiger Tanks would be very hard for Sherman Tanks to fight and thus you had to adapt and try to figure out how to fight them. War games are not balanced and if they were i guess that is fine but would lack a realism in some aspects in my opinion. 40k is not balanced, it has structure and options etc.

But as a game, you need to balance it or people will stop playing it. Why would I play a game I'd have basically 1% or less change to win?
And the balance mechanic for this game are points. If Eldar and Necron models costed a lot more than Orks, Tyranids or AM stuff, then they'd be more balanced. But a 300p Wraithknight while the Imperial counterpart, a Knight, costs almost 100p more with worse weapons? That's the wrong turn GW did with Eldar. They don't want to give a model too many points or they'll sell less of them (as players won't be able to field as many as if they'd cost less). Imagine if the Wraithknight costed 400, 450 or even 500p. People would complain a lot less (would still complain, though), because for what it brings to the table, the Wraithknight is surely undercosted now. Heck, even the Imperial Knights shoudl cost more.

And that's only the Wraithknight. Scatterbikes and D-Scythes/Guard is even more problematic (to me), as they're quite cheap and numerous. 2 wraithguards can deal much more damage than 1 Wraithknight and cost only a bit more. This kind of thing is the main complain regarding the new Eldar book - they're pretty powerful, but too cheap.

I am going to have to say ghaz that an assault eldar army with no knight would not stand a chance against an ork army... also, Martel, hopefully I will be running a BA army against scatter bike on sunday (he may even bring two knights) and I will let you know how it goes... even though I know that if I win it will not end your complaints it will at least prove that it can be done with the right tools...

By the way, two game conventions and two other tournaments, that I have won 3 of and not taken a single grav weapon.... not one... perhaps I should start running them so my life is easier...

Thyhadras wrote:
I am going to have to say ghaz that an assault eldar army with no knight would not stand a chance against an ork army... also, Martel, hopefully I will be running a BA army against scatter bike on sunday (he may even bring two knights) and I will let you know how it goes... even though I know that if I win it will not end your complaints it will at least prove that it can be done with the right tools...

By the way, two game conventions and two other tournaments, that I have won 3 of and not taken a single grav weapon.... not one... perhaps I should start running them so my life is easier...

Cannons with amps are way, way better than the regular guns. You may not notice a huge difference.

Against a knowledgeable Eldar player, I think the BA simply don't have the tools to compete. No matter how you rearrange the deck chairs. Maybe if you make a pod list and your opponent has no idea how to set up against pods. You seemed to indicate that you haven't had much experience with people deploying to neuter the alpha strike.

Actually, Thy/Ghaz, the win/loss isn't that different between my typical CWE list and when I build a list to face Orks. They win some they lose some against either type. The difference is, even if an Ork player beats my typical list but loses to the sort of list I prefer against Orks, the Ork player doesn't enjoy the first game, but enjoys the second.

Melee (Swordwind) CWE can certainly go either way against the sort of Ork lists I face. As I said, I certainly need to soften the Orks up first, but it tends to be an even-ish slugfest at the end.

The concern about list tailoring isn't about giving Orks a fighting chance - they have that against my typical list. Its about changing the flow of the game to something the Ork player will enjoy.

Is it right that the Eldar dex, as a whole is so much better? Certainly not. But not everything in the Dex is broken.

Martel,
Are you still saying that, when I bring, say, a buch of Footdar, my list is still OP because Scatter Bikes and WK - which are not in the list - are OP? Once more down that hole?

How is a list without Scatter Bikes or WKs OP because of Scatter Bikes and WKs?

This isn't specifically about whether the CWE dex is OP (I don't think anyone here has been arguing otherwise). Its about your claim that any list I might have from CWE is OP.

If I don't own Scatter Bikes or WKs, they aren't relevant. Most CWE players you've faced may have brought the cheese, but how does that necessitate that all Eldar players and lists are cheese?

(Regarding Wraithguard, Scythe or Cannon - they aren't so OP when they don't have a WWP. That is supposed to be part of their cost, but allying in DE just negates their biggest balancing point. Its stupid. I don't do it. But yes, its OP.)

"when I bring, say, a buch of Footdar,"

You are gimping yourself and I don't consider that to be a true Eldar list. If my opponent has to hamstring himself, I didn't win a thing. It really feels like begging my opponent to let me win.

At any rate, I don't give BA much of a chance against Footdar, either. Too many free buffs in the 7th ed codex.

"I don't do it."

You gimping yourself doesn't help me.

"(I don't think anyone here has been arguing otherwise)"

You sure seem to be doing a pretty good imitation.

", but how does that necessitate that all Eldar players and lists are cheese? "

20 years of playing against them. People who pick Eldar are usually win first: that's from a sample of about 50ish Eldar players over the years.

Last time i played eldar, my mate said he'd bring a fluffy list - no d-weapons, no waveserpents only 3 scatbikes, no wraithknights, no wraithlords, no falcon deepstrikes, no wraithguard and only one farseer. I felt confident.

he brought (among other things) 10 warp-spiders, 10 fire dragons and 6 swooping hawks.

turn 4 i was down to 3 tech-thralls on an objective. It lasted to turn 4 because they got into CC with the swooping hawks at turn 3.
I was playing a taghmata list that brings back thrall units on a 5+; i used techpriest auxillia and an Archmagos lachrimallus to give 3+ FNP for the thralls.
He took out all but one of my tech-adepts and my magos in one turn (the second turn) - all my buffs disappeared and he basicly just advanced while remaining just outside my ability to move and shoot.

Playing eldar just isn't fun.
I'm sure it's a blast for anyone with a recently released deathstar combo (the fire and ice thing) but that's only four codex's so far - do yourself a favour and shelve your eldar until all the codex's have had similar treatment.

Oh, and keep out of 30k OP - we don't want to play people who gloat on one thread about having an unbeatable list and then make another thread wondering why people dislike your codex so much.

Just how are Rangers much better than Sniper Scouts? Side grade at best.

How are Storm Guardians better than Guardsmen?

Is a BL on a Guardian unit going to do much more than a Tac squad with a Lascannon, for the points? Even though the latter is considered garbage?

Is an Autarch even comparable to a Captain?

How does Mephy compare to either Eldred? Or Dante to a Phoenix Lord?

How are your Tac Marines afraid of Guardians on foot?

Why does a Vyper so clearly outclass a Land Speeder?

How do Wraithblades compare to Termies?

I really disagree that everything in the Dex is categorically better than anything anyone else has.

Bharring wrote:
Just how are Rangers much better than Sniper Scouts? Side grade at best.

How are Storm Guardians better than Guardsmen?

Is a BL on a Guardian unit going to do much more than a Tac squad with a Lascannon, for the points? Even though the latter is considered garbage?

Is an Autarch even comparable to a Captain?

How does Mephy compare to either Eldred? Or Dante to a Phoenix Lord?

How are your Tac Marines afraid of Guardians on foot?

Why does a Vyper so clearly outclass a Land Speeder?

How do Wraithblades compare to Termies?

I really disagree that everything in the Dex is categorically better than anything anyone else has.

That's your right. But you also have the right to be incorrect. I guess it's the kind of thing that has to be shown to you over and over via army swaps. After 10 or so straight BA losses on your part, you might get it.

Read and digest the post by Sir Donlad. Now imagine it being even worse because BA are probably the worst codex in the game. (After rethinking CSM a bit)

Eh, I mean, I dislike the eldar because they are space elves, but their book does have a lot of what seems over the top. The D flamers are a huge bummer, the wraithknight (like the imperial knight, and the dreadknight used to be) is a huge bummer to face. It's no fun to just have your models removed from play with no random chance to save them.

I dislike playing them a lot because they break a lot of rules other armies follow. They can ignore the need to choose between running and shooting, they seem to not care about failing psychic tests, as they get re-rolls, and their powers all seem pretty damned good.

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

I also notice your list of units left out:

Dark Reapers
Scorpions
Banshees
Dire Avengers
Warp Spiders
War Walkers
Wave Serpents

These units will cut BA lists to little tiny red ribbons. Your middling units are better than the best of what the BA can bring.


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 krodarklorr wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

LOL I guess.

Eldar CC list would feature the Phoenix lord who can destroy every Ork CC IC and CHaracter in every duel, every single time. so yeah Im going to say Orks lose.

The funniest part of this is your trying to defend the CWE still even though your defense is "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance"

Just admit CWE are broken and are ridiculously OP and not fun to play against.

" "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance" "

That's Bharring's manifesto. BA players man up and admit that BA were totally insane in 3rd. I guess Eldar are just embarrassed or something.

BA bring the most horrible things we can think of and we are minor annoyance... for Tau.

Not about people stopping the alpha strike... it is about still pushing through knowing that you are going to lose models... I have played against plenty of people who stop the alpha strike which is something you either attempt to work around... or build a different list... and if you have no desire to do either then it would probably be best to simply find a new hobby... kayaking is fun



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I actually am not sure what was better in 3rd my sang cheese or my biel-tan... course alaitoc always did well for me (yea I used to have like 10,000 points of eldar, however, 4th saw the end of them :(

I guess I'm No True Eldar then.

Do you really read anything that says "Parts of the whole aren't X" as "The whole isn't X"?

Do I really come across to most people, especially when i say things like "The Eldar dex is OP", or "They didn't need the buff", as arguing that the Eldar dex is *not* OP? Because I didn't think I was *that* bad at communicating.

Eldar can be very unfun to play against. So can Skyhammer. Or Decurion. Or IK. It seems to be much more common with Eldar. In my experience, though, that is a fixable problem though, although its the CWE player (and the meta) that needs to fix it.

We used to have a player who would always field in 6th Abby in a LR, a Helldrake, and a DoT DP with all the trimmings, that always got +1 armor save and Iron Arm. By the start of the game. Usually had +1T too. And couldn't wait to field a Lord of Skulls.

Beating that player wasn't hard. That's a lot of points in a 1k game (not sure he was always within points, but I think so). But it wasn't fun.

Winning isn't what makes the game fun. Its having options. Just fielding a list someone can beat doesn't mean they'll enjoy the game. You can have unfun lists in almost any game (would anyone enjoy a game against pure legion? Its an autowin. No point.).

I think its a little harder to make a fun list, but is certainly possible.

One guideline I use that that guy didn't? One box of each. This means 6 or fewer FDs or Warp Spiders. And only one unit.

To say all CWE you've seen has been a problem clearly demonstrates a problem. It does not necessitate that all CWE players - and lists - are a problem.

" it is about still pushing through knowing that you are going to lose models"

Yes, but if your opponent makes you lose 3/4 of your alpha strikers, you're probably toast. I've personally wiped seven units of an UM alpha strike list back in 6th.

" or build a different list"

I'm already NOT using alpha strikes.


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Bharring wrote:
I guess I'm No True Eldar then.

Do you really read anything that says "Parts of the whole aren't X" as "The whole isn't X"?

Do I really come across to most people, especially when i say things like "The Eldar dex is OP", or "They didn't need the buff", as arguing that the Eldar dex is *not* OP? Because I didn't think I was *that* bad at communicating.

Eldar can be very unfun to play against. So can Skyhammer. Or Decurion. Or IK. It seems to be much more common with Eldar. In my experience, though, that is a fixable problem though, although its the CWE player (and the meta) that needs to fix it.

We used to have a player who would always field in 6th Abby in a LR, a Helldrake, and a DoT DP with all the trimmings, that always got +1 armor save and Iron Arm. By the start of the game. Usually had +1T too. And couldn't wait to field a Lord of Skulls.

Beating that player wasn't hard. That's a lot of points in a 1k game (not sure he was always within points, but I think so). But it wasn't fun.

Winning isn't what makes the game fun. Its having options. Just fielding a list someone can beat doesn't mean they'll enjoy the game. You can have unfun lists in almost any game (would anyone enjoy a game against pure legion? Its an autowin. No point.).

I think its a little harder to make a fun list, but is certainly possible.

One guideline I use that that guy didn't? One box of each. This means 6 or fewer FDs or Warp Spiders. And only one unit.

To say all CWE you've seen has been a problem clearly demonstrates a problem. It does not necessitate that all CWE players - and lists - are a problem.

GW is the problem. They're the ones publishing these insanely imbalanced books. The mere fact that my BA can't compete with your B team is unfun to me.

The limits you are putting on your own lists are beyond what you can expect of pretty much anyone else. From what I've seen.

I designed my entire army with the assumption that i would be losing squads per turn and it didn't matter.

For the record the same arrangement got pitched against a BA death company list centred around astaroth the grim - he failed all his charges (i do mean all of them!) and got assaulted by the tech-thralls; next turn the Archmagos and another blob of thralls came into the combat, challenged astaroth and won - i won the game with his remaining 4 guys locked in combat with a blob of ~20 thralls and my Archmagos.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I designed my entire army with the assumption that i would be losing squads per turn and it didn't matter.

For the record the same arrangement got pitched against a BA death company list centred around astaroth the grim - he failed all his charges (i do mean all of them!) and got assaulted by the tech-thralls; next turn the Archmagos and another blob of thralls came into the combat, challenged astaroth and won - i won the game with his remaining 4 guys locked in combat with a blob of ~20 thralls and my Archmagos.

Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Martel,
Wait, Scorpions cut your BAs to shreds?

Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?

To say nothing of shooting the choppy. That Boltgun will do more than those Shuriken Pistols at any range.

The ASM will win that fight with ease.

Dark Reapers are only noticeably better than Krak Devs against Jink-capable targets. Otherwise they have about the same output as a unit you consider junk, and much less survivability.

Banshees got a lot more than they should. That said, they're still T3 4+. Again, Boltguns do work.

DAs has been discussed to death. Sure, they'll beat Tacs eventually if you can't force them out of their one potential for victory. But force them to advance (objectives), stay away, or get too close, and they don't survive.

Warp Spiders are broken.
War Walkers with 2xSL are broken. 2xML pays more per ML than Devs with Flak. BLs aren't that far removed from Devs with Lascannons. On an AV10 open topped 2HP frame. Its range and 5++ are the only way it survives.

Wave Serpents should have been nerfed harder. But 3 TL S6 shots at 24" and 2 TL S4, even with Bladestorm, isn't a lot for 110 points. It can do work, but isn't the monster it was.

So... Bring more boltguns if Footdar is kicking your ass? Much of what you're afraid of dies to naked tac squads of the same points.

Ghaz,
Baharoth vs a Warboss.
4 S4 AP3 attacks at I7. You arent dying from that.
The warboss is probably going to win.

Asurmen fares a bit better. For over 200 points you can probably take a Warboss out (4 attacks hit on 3 wound on 4?). With 3W though, the Nob + Boys should finish him easily.

All,
How does saying "Eldar are OP" somehow mean I don't think Eldar, as a whole, are OP?

Look. I don't list tailor. I play against blind opponents. I'm looking to take out boltguns, not put them in. You build me an opponent-neutral BA list and then stack it up against foot aspect warriors. Remember that this list will have to take on Skyhammer, invis grav stars, scatterbikes, WKs, Decurions, Green Tides, and RW lists.So there's going to be zero heavy bolters for sure.

"Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?"

I've mostly given up on assault. And I certainly don't touch ASM with a ten foot pole. They are awful.

So my CWE list is more cheesy than my SM list because its more vulnerable to small arms, which you don't want to take?

Bharring wrote:
So my CWE list is more cheesy than my SM list because its more vulnerable to small arms, which you don't want to take?

I can't answer that without seeing your SM list. Although I'm guessing the CWE still has way more offense. Being vulnerable to small arms doesn't matter when the units with small arms are dead.

Exactly.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
Wait, Scorpions cut your BAs to shreds?

Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?

To say nothing of shooting the choppy. That Boltgun will do more than those Shuriken Pistols at any range.

The ASM will win that fight with ease.

Dark Reapers are only noticeably better than Krak Devs against Jink-capable targets. Otherwise they have about the same output as a unit you consider junk, and much less survivability.

Banshees got a lot more than they should. That said, they're still T3 4+. Again, Boltguns do work.

DAs has been discussed to death. Sure, they'll beat Tacs eventually if you can't force them out of their one potential for victory. But force them to advance (objectives), stay away, or get too close, and they don't survive.

Warp Spiders are broken.
War Walkers with 2xSL are broken. 2xML pays more per ML than Devs with Flak. BLs aren't that far removed from Devs with Lascannons. On an AV10 open topped 2HP frame. Its range and 5++ are the only way it survives.

Wave Serpents should have been nerfed harder. But 3 TL S6 shots at 24" and 2 TL S4, even with Bladestorm, isn't a lot for 110 points. It can do work, but isn't the monster it was.

So... Bring more boltguns if Footdar is kicking your ass? Much of what you're afraid of dies to naked tac squads of the same points.

Ghaz,
Baharoth vs a Warboss.
4 S4 AP3 attacks at I7. You arent dying from that.
The warboss is probably going to win.

Asurmen fares a bit better. For over 200 points you can probably take a Warboss out (4 attacks hit on 3 wound on 4?). With 3W though, the Nob + Boys should finish him easily.

All,
How does saying "Eldar are OP" somehow mean I don't think Eldar, as a whole, are OP?

Put this into perspective. Martel is comparing BA units to Eldar units. Sure, boltguns do work, but not as much as you give them credit for. I play Necrons, and I essentially rely on "Bolt guns" to do all my heavy lifting. Footdar has done just as much damage to me as I've done to them. Think about that. Necrons took as much damage from them as they dealt. Against T3 models while shooting bolt guns. And BA are not as durable.

Plus, a little peeve of mine, Dark Reapers are much, much better than Devs. Compared to Krak Devs, they can potentially have better BS (and the Exarch is base BS5, with 2 shots), they can move and shoot, are better against skimmers and Flyers, and have the option of firing more S5 AP3 shots instead if they need versatility. Krak Devs can fire a single S8 shot a piece, or a S4 AP6 small blast. Woooooooo.

(The Exactly was in reference to it not being a forgone conclusion that an unseen CWE list is better than an unseen SM list.)

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

The fact remains that BA would struggle mightily against Eldar B team units. BA have poor ranged options, yet that's what we're forced to use in 7th. Because assault is terrible for non-TWC, non-Wraiths in most cases. It so happens that scorpions work fine against BA because BA have crap shooting.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Eldar CC list would feature the Phoenix lord who can destroy every Ork CC IC and CHaracter in every duel, every single time. so yeah Im going to say Orks lose.

The funniest part of this is your trying to defend the CWE still even though your defense is "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance"

Just admit CWE are broken and are ridiculously OP and not fun to play against.

here here, the eldar codex is in serious need of massive price jumps, i would either jack up prices on most things by at least 8-15% (varying on the unit) and maybe take away their unique magic table entirely or allow them a ration of one spell per army and only available through your warlord (if you take no warlord psyker you may assign it to one other caster). OR i would enact massive statline and wargear changes resulting in serious reform in the way eldar are approached by the playerbase. id expect lots of people to get mad as a result of said changes because some of them would be pretty harsh

alternatively you can keep your CWE book as is but your never getting a new book for at least 1 whole edition and that's only after a review of their state of play at the point in time where we consider issuing a new one, potentially you could be looking at even longer.

the eldar codex is in sorry need of serious humility, every other army has had its fair share of bad books and bad moments in time meanwhile the eldar havent.

Eldar were below average in 5th ed (Guided, fortuned scatter walkers in ruins were still extremely potent) and poor in 3rd before their codex. That's their entire history of not being great.

 SirDonlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

Random charge length sucks. I'd much prefer some of the Proposed Rules.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

Random charge length sucks. I'd much prefer some of the Proposed Rules.

It wouldn't make Astorath good if that changed. And then players could game out spoiling assaults against DC perfectly. Spoiling assault = DC are hosed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
(The Exactly was in reference to it not being a forgone conclusion that an unseen CWE list is better than an unseen SM list.)

I'm talking about BA here, not SM. SM have access to a librarian who picks his spells, for example. They have plenty of tricks. Their tacs are still worthless, but for them, it turns out not to matter.

Dman137 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

That actually sounds like a interesting idea

to you perhaps, but do you attend large tournaments now? take the LVO for example, im from canada and might be attending the 2016 event, you think i would have any interest spending atleast a grand for the weekend than end up playing some army i dont even know how to play even for one game, no thanks.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

That actually sounds like a interesting idea

to you perhaps, but do you attend large tournaments now? take the LVO for example, im from canada and might be attending the 2016 event, you think i would have any interest spending atleast a grand for the weekend than end up playing some army i dont even know how to play even for one game, no thanks.

It being a intersting idea has nothing to do with it being a thing that would happen or something I would go to. I go to a lot of big events, warmasters next month, then daboyz. And they both have different comp, and just different way of doing things. As for LVO and events far from home, I'm sure they would post up the comp and rules long before the event took place, so you wouldn't run into the problem of going to that event because you already no it's not your thing.

OP is a troll. Nothing nore nothing less. Maybe TFG troll. Nothing more to see or do here imho. Can this be locked like it should have been 4 pages ago?

 DarthSpader wrote:
OP is a troll. Nothing nore nothing less. Maybe TFG troll. Nothing more to see or do here imho. Can this be locked like it should have been 4 pages ago?

Right.
One locally good army list doesn't make a summer.

Martel732 wrote:

It wouldn't make Astorath good if that changed. And then players could game out spoiling assaults against DC perfectly. Spoiling assault = DC are hosed.

Agreed. Not being able to assault after outflank or deepstrike is his biggest problem.

The fixed assault distance thing would make terrain management a new game in itself!

Engaging troll multiquote in 10...9...1...!

Vaktathi wrote: They're the largest offenders in the codex, but almost every single unit in the codex got buffs, be it Shrouded over just Stealth on Rangers, both Stealth and Shrouded on Scorpions, weapons battery's getting a D weapon option, Fire Dragons effectively getting "AP0", etc. not to mention formations giving multiple units BS5 (at no increase in cost) and other such things.

At least from my perspective, Aspect Warriors needed a buff to give people a reason to take them over Wraith units and Wave Serpents in the last codex. The problem is that now they've been overshadowed by the unholy trinity of Scatbikers, D-Weapons, and Wraithknights. The buff to Aspect Warriors mean that you can now make a strong Eldar list without having to include the most broken units.

Enough do have such weapons, and such units form the common core of many, if not most, Eldar lists you see out there, and, as noted, they don't necessarily require them either to be extremely powerful.

My own Eldar army built to a 4E/early 5E paradigm, composed of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, and War Walkers, and I've won all three games I've played with it running the current codex, and felt somewhat dirty doing it (especially BS5 "AP0" Fire Dragons). Hell, in the last two years, that army gained BS4 on all of its vehicles, pseudo rending on all of its shuriken weapons, 5++ saves on its war walkers, 3+ armor on its Fire Dragons, BS5 on most of its Aspect Warriors through formations, Battle Focus for Run & Shoot, and is cheaper to boot. While some may argue that all armies get better over time, In the same timepsan, the 2000pt IG army I built roughly at the same time became a 2215pt list and lost a grip of capability on half the units in the army (e.g. Hydras losing ignoring jink and becoming open topped, chimeras becoming more expensive and losing fire points).

Again, that's the problem with power creep. Why take anything other than the most OP/broken units? After all, winning tournaments is all that matters right?

Funnily enough, my own Eldar army is relatively similar to your 5th edition list and I've been having similar levels of success. I'm not doubting that Guard have taken a serious kick in the shorts through a combination of a mediocre codex and changes in edition and design philosophy. But I don't think it's fair to measure an army with relatively few problems by an army with many serious problems.

Face it, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese in this game.

To be fair, I thought I was rather pretty explicit in acknowledging that multiple times.

You have been, and I respect you for that. Unlike certain other posters (both Eldar players and not) you're at least willing to argue politely and reasonably.

Don't go all out with the gouda or only add a bit of cheddar when you're playing for fun. This place could seriously use some perspective. It'll probably die down when someone has a bad game against Necrons or Admech/Skitarii and the whole cycle will begin again, with the same people rehashing the same old arguments in the same kinds of threads. It's beginning to get old, is what I'm saying.

You don't have to participate in the discussions if you don't want to...and I'm not the one making these threads. I am however pointing out that the "L2P" arguments we've seen from other posters are somewhat silly.

 krodarklorr wrote:


One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

That's fine but if every other army doesn't have the fluff power supporting them and the Eldar have none of the things holding them back like huge points costs for an army made of a dieing race than how does that make any sense

@Martel

It seems a huge part of your problem is that you are mad about the quality of your codex. That is GWs fault, not Eldar players and the ire should be directed at GW. It is not reasonable to essentially say Eldar don't deserve to play their army because my codex can't handle them.

Then you make the problem even worse by declaring that even if the Eldar player makes concessions, acknowledging that some stuff is OP, and plays with more balanced units, it still isn't right because he could take stronger stuff even though he didn't. Again that is GWs fault, not the Eldar player.

If you are going to hate on a faction's players because of what they could do, not because of what they actually do, YOU are the problem, not the Eldar player.

--

OP's other thread I'll acknowledge is pompous and reinforces negative Eldar stereotypes, but just because he is wrong there (in my opinion), doesn't mean that the point here is not valid.

--

Among other complaints in this thread that really make no reasonable sense is the complaint that too many units in the Eldar codex are good. Not that they are OP, just that they are good. Or put another way, the complaint is that the Eldar don't have either any or enough bad units. It would be best if GW actually made every unit in every codex useable, but to complain about a codex having too many useable units is to sound like a petulant child, and really if you got what you were asking for, the real problem, i.e. too much OP, would be exacerbated. The choice for the Eldar player would be take a bad unit or take an OP one. Most people from any faction aren't going to willingly take bad units. At least with a codex full of good choices, there can be variety and the choice isn't OP or underpowered.

Don't let jealousy cloud your judgment of Eldar players. It isn't their fault GW writes lousy rules and does a poor job with internal balance in many codexes. It is GWs fault. Get mad at them. Every codex should have good internal balance so that every unit is viable. The problem isn't that Eldar have it, the problem is that other codexes don't. The solution is to fix the other codexes, not to break the Eldar one.

You haven't had it bad often enough so it is time for you to get yours is a petty, immature mindset. Rather than wishing ill on other factions and calling for them to suffer from bad rules, how about calling for everyone to have quality rules. Everyone being happy seem to be a much better scenario, than deliberately putting people through times of frustration and powerlessness.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


But only if the Riptide and Dreaknight receive reasonable price increases, Grav Centurions go away, Battle Brothers shenanigans are abolished, 2++ re-rollable is no longer possible, Admech/Skitarii have to pay for their upgrades, and you can no longer have an army consisting only of 5 Imperial Knights.

Deal?

Honestly, I'd be ok with fixing everything you just listed, they all seem fair and reasonable.

Though, honestly, don't you think it's just a little hypocritical to play eldar and call riptides and dreadknights underpriced? I'm not going to disagree with you, but it's a bit off to hear from an eldar point of view.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:


But only if the Riptide and Dreaknight receive reasonable price increases, Grav Centurions go away, Battle Brothers shenanigans are abolished, 2++ re-rollable is no longer possible, Admech/Skitarii have to pay for their upgrades, and you can no longer have an army consisting only of 5 Imperial Knights.

Deal?

Honestly, I'd be ok with fixing everything you just listed, they all seem fair and reasonable.

Though, honestly, don't you think it's just a little hypocritical to play eldar and call riptides and dreadknights underpriced? I'm not going to disagree with you, but it's a bit off to hear from an eldar point of view.

Can you point to a post I've made in this thread where I haven't said that Scatbikers, D-Weapons, and the Wraithknight aren't undercosted and overpowered?

How is it hypocritical to say my stuff is OP, but so is X, Y and Z, let's fix all of it? Hypocritical would be saying my stuff is fine, but XY and Z aren't.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

SirDonlad wrote:Last time i played eldar, my mate said he'd bring a fluffy list - no d-weapons, no waveserpents only 3 scatbikes, no wraithknights, no wraithlords, no falcon deepstrikes, no wraithguard and only one farseer. I felt confident.

he brought (among other things) 10 warp-spiders, 10 fire dragons and 6 swooping hawks.

turn 4 i was down to 3 tech-thralls on an objective. It lasted to turn 4 because they got into CC with the swooping hawks at turn 3.
I was playing a taghmata list that brings back thrall units on a 5+; i used techpriest auxillia and an Archmagos lachrimallus to give 3+ FNP for the thralls.
He took out all but one of my tech-adepts and my magos in one turn (the second turn) - all my buffs disappeared and he basicly just advanced while remaining just outside my ability to move and shoot.

Playing eldar just isn't fun.
I'm sure it's a blast for anyone with a recently released deathstar combo (the fire and ice thing) but that's only four codex's so far - do yourself a favour and shelve your eldar until all the codex's have had similar treatment.

Oh, and keep out of 30k OP - we don't want to play people who gloat on one thread about having an unbeatable list and then make another thread wondering why people dislike your codex so much.

Playing Eldar is fun...for Eldar players!

So you managed to get an Eldar player to avoid all the cheese and then some, and you still lost. What exactly did your opponent bring? What did you bring? Could it be a case of bad dice or hot dice on someone's part, or was that specific list just the kryptonite to yours?

Hey dude. Okay, memory is a little hazy but i'll try - he had ten fire dragons, ten warp spiders 6 swooping hawks three windriders a farseer on a jetbike, five rangers, two blobs of guardians one with scatter laser the other with a bright lance. i think there was other stuff, but i really can't remember! i took a fully decked out Archmagos lachrimallus with an abeyant, macchiator array, MC photon thruster etc; i also took two tech-priest auxillia units both with reductor adept (fluffy) and an extra 'lacyraemarta' adept - one unit had 2 HB servitors and two flamer servitors and the other had 4 flamer servitors - i spent the remaining points on thrall units with 'revenant alchemistry' and 'induction chargers' so they all had a 3+ FNP while near the tech-priests (who stayed near my board edge on eigther side of the Archmagos).
There was a fair amount of buildings (it would probably count as a city fight) and three objectives - one in our deployment zones and one in the middle.
Around turn three i had lost all my leadership and my opponent allowed me to keep doing my 'ruthless assault' rolls despite my warlord being dead so leaving a squad of thralls on my home objective i strated to rush what i had left forward in the hope of getting units back and holding the centre objective when the game ended, but i didn't get any back and he just CC'd all i had off the centre objective while the swooping hawks dropped next to the thralls on my home objective who enjoyed the best rolling i did all game to survive thier shooting, assault them in return and win the combat! no sweeping advance (that would have been nice) but reconsolidated on my objective and we called the game there as he had all the things which just killed everything else bearing down on them.

I killed his rangers, a single jetbike, a couple of warp spiders some guardians (10 i think?), a trio of fire dragons and 3 swooping hawks.

My mate did thank me a lot for the game and i was intrested to see how my buildings would affect things.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Hey dude. Okay, memory is a little hazy but i'll try - he had ten fire dragons, ten warp spiders 6 swooping hawks three windriders a farseer on a jetbike, five rangers, two blobs of guardians one with scatter laser the other with a bright lance. i think there was other stuff, but i really can't remember! i took a fully decked out Archmagos lachrimallus with an abeyant, macchiator array, MC photon thruster etc; i also took two tech-priest auxillia units both with reductor adept (fluffy) and an extra 'lacyraemarta' adept - one unit had 2 HB servitors and two flamer servitors and the other had 4 flamer servitors - i spent the remaining points on thrall units with 'revenant alchemistry' and 'induction chargers' so they all had a 3+ FNP while near the tech-priests (who stayed near my board edge on eigther side of the Archmagos).
There was a fair amount of buildings (it would probably count as a city fight) and three objectives - one in our deployment zones and one in the middle.
Around turn three i had lost all my leadership and my opponent allowed me to keep doing my 'ruthless assault' rolls despite my warlord being dead so leaving a squad of thralls on my home objective i strated to rush what i had left forward in the hope of getting units back and holding the centre objective when the game ended, but i didn't get any back and he just CC'd all i had off the centre objective while the swooping hawks dropped next to the thralls on my home objective who enjoyed the best rolling i did all game to survive thier shooting, assault them in return and win the combat! no sweeping advance (that would have been nice) but reconsolidated on my objective and we called the game there as he had all the things which just killed everything else bearing down on them.

I killed his rangers, a single jetbike, a couple of warp spiders some guardians (10 i think?), a trio of fire dragons and 3 swooping hawks.

My mate did thank me a lot for the game and i was intrested to see how my buildings would affect things.

I think I can diagnose the problem: I'm not very familiar with Mechanicus Auxilia (pardon me if I get the name wrong; I don't play 30k), but it doesn't seem like you have many vehicles or high-toughness models. With the units the Eldar player brought, he could easily mulch through infantry units, especially with the Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks. Maybe consider bringing more vehicles to the next matchup, or some MCs?

GAdvance wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

That's fine but if every other army doesn't have the fluff power supporting them and the Eldar have none of the things holding them back like huge points costs for an army made of a dieing race than how does that make any sense

Hey, I'm not going to disagree with you.

Wow this blew up quite a bit. Realize I'm a bit late to the game, but I'll comment on this as I believe its still relevant.

Bharring wrote:
First off, Ork players, more than most, seem to dislike playing most Eldar lists. I've come to find, however, that if list-tailoring is feasible for facing Orks - and the Ork player doesn't mind - this can be fixed. Orks want to see some good Krumping. Its not what most Eldar units do. But I usually run as many DAs as I can backed up by Scorpions and Banshees and other CC units. I still need to spread out the Orks, and still need to thin them out before assaulting, but the games usually climax in one big pile, and win or lose, we both tend to have a blast.

Most players, and this is purely anecdotal, don't like list tailoring. It's a word that carries a very negative vibe in most circles.

Bharring wrote:

In regard to most Ork players I have played, its not that they lose, its that there is no counterplay. They move forward, most Eldar units run away. Change to a more CC oriented Eldar army, and things naturally change!

CC isn't powerful, for the most part, this edition. Eldar have some of the best firepower in the game, and don't need to take melee units. That being said, I still think storm guardians and striking scorpions stand up to most Ork melee units (probably not their best, but the regular troops sure).

Bharring wrote:

That and, apparently, a half-dead Nob can punk an unhurt Asurmen in a challenge. Fun times, but dice hated me apparently.

And grots can kill termies. Point?

Bharring wrote:

List tailoring shouldn't be necessary, but it does make those games much, much better.

And yet, against the dexes that aren't at the top, most armies don't have to list tailor to play. Eldar are the worst at this, though necrons with formations come close. Eldar don't need formations to break the game, though it helps.

Bharring wrote:

The new book is much worse than the old book. What was my old 1500pt list is now 1407. It lost a number of tricks, but is mostly better. But its Swordwind. Its hardly unbeatable by other casual lists.

The new book is must more powerful than the old book, unless you were spamming WS. They got weaker, everything moved up in strength.

Bharring wrote:

Ghaz,
What the hell. Do you even read my posts?

You posted numbers that didn't mesh with mine once, I posted my methodology and where I thought your math was off, and you never got back to me regarding your methodology, or any demo of where mine was wrong.

Aki,
The post where I ran numbers, I made it explicitly clear that I wasn't sure if CSM could take 2 PGs at 5, but alternately they could take a combiplas Instead. That was in the initial post. And you still bitch about it. 5 less points, but one shot only. Would make the attrition more similar to the DAs dying from Storm Bolters, but the CSM would still retain their PG to the last man, where DAs lose firepower with every man lost, losing them twice as fast.

Again, this isn't even remotely close to what happened. You ran a 5 man squad claiming they would deal X wounds per round (suggesting no combi) to 2+ armor targets and MCs. You claimed that this made them better than DA without fact checking, and were corrected.
You, several posts later, claimed you knew they could take a combi weapon and this was splitting the difference. I pointed out this wasn't what you originally stated and this was a fabrication, and one that doesn't jibe with your earlier statement regardless. You then left the discussion.
If you want to run the numbers for a combi, we can. We can take an assumed amount of rounds of shooting an infantry unit of that size will get (3?) and determine an average number of wounds dealt per round and compare it to DA.

As far as keeping the PG to the last man, this doesn't always happen. Models are removed from the front, and eldar are mobile. They can move, and you risk not being in rapid fire range if you keep them too far back. PG's also have to worry about precision shots removing them. DA don't have this problem. This is a strength, not a weakness.
I'm also dubious about losing effectiveness twice as fast, but I'm not going to bother running the numbers.
I have no idea why you mentioned storm bolters.

Bharring wrote:

Of course I ran numbers vs TEQ with a PG unit. Isn't that what you take them for? I was very clear about what matchups were for what.

Let's try answering the whole point, yes? You took PG for TEQ and MEQ (where they tied with DA without the combi, for the record, or were slightly worse). You then switched to a different loadout for another enemy (GEQ) to make the numbers look better for marines.
You can't list tailor mid combat. Stick to one loadout and do that math, with that same loadout, against every target. If you want to run multiple loadouts and take an average, thats okay I suppose, but if your argument relies on list tailoring, its already lost.
You also had the eldar DA be down the cost of 2 plasma guns. They still tied or were better in every scenario.

Bharring wrote:

The counter to 2 shots at 12-18" is 0 shots at 18-24. Compared to 1 for Boltgun/PG. Its quite the tradeoff. If you don't believe me, think about the typical distance between deployment. If you cannot start within 24", if you move up 6", an 18" gun can't shoot. A 24" gun just needs to step over the line. Sure, DAs can BF forward, and then eat rapid fire death and lose handily.

Actually, in the math I ran SM did rapid fire the first round and then eldar fired back. They still won. After that there was no way for marines to catch up ever again. I believe at the end the eldar had...4 guys alive before the marines wiped?
If you want, we can do marines firing 1 time, eldar moving forward and firing 2 times, and then this continues. Marines still lose though.

Bharring wrote:

The numbers I showed were without Rapid Fire in the head to head. If they were, the Marines would destroy the DAs. By a lot. For the other targets, sure, I did assume they were within 12", but I also assumed they were within 18", and also that CC wasn't an option. That's a 6" window where Marines dominate, a 6" window where DAs win, a 12" window where Marines win again, and then CC where Marines destroy.

If you want, you can run CC against most enemies. I'd like you to explain how basic marines reach CC if the enemy doesn't want them to (they won't against DA, for example), but you can if you want.
The marines failed to destroy DA against any target, only being higher, I believe, against MCs with a 20% point advantage being given.

Bharring wrote:

I keep hearing about are Tacs are gak because nobody ever takes the things that boltguns fear. Because those things suck ass.

People take aspect warriors and GEQ all the time, if that is what you are implying. Cover saves stop the boltguns from being good against those units.
Boltguns and tacs are terrible. The enemy doesn't matter, they aren't very good and can be considered bottom tier.

The only person agreeing with you was master of ordiance. While he/she is a nice person, his list building was god awful in the thread he made. Heavy bolters and melta guns on slow troops probably make marines seem like god kings. Against even a semi-optimized list, tacticals are crap, as most people agree.

Bharring wrote:

Now I'm being told that those things are OP. And there is no way an Eldar list can be less powerful than a Marine list.

An Eldar list can be less powerful then a marine list (and it's BA, which isn't the same thing). On average, an eldar list will be leaps and bounds above an average marine list.

Bharring wrote:

The Eldar dex certainly just got buffs they didn't need. Scorpions can get an amazing cover save if they don't fight. Rangers, who pay Sniper Scout points for t3 5+ and far fewer tools, now Gert shrouded. Its better, but not broken. DAs can get BS2 overwatch instead of Counterattack. They didn't need that, but it doesn't make them OP.

I'm not claiming these units are broken. I'm claiming they are better than any equivalent unit in any other dex. I don't think this breaks the game, but it does give the eldar a big advantage. And these are some of the weaker units they can take. The weakest, at a guess, would be banshees.

Bharring wrote:

Not all Eldar lists are broken.

Fair enough.

Bharring wrote:

(And I take allusions of bad math in the face of showing my work, but with either BS numbers or no numbers at all, as an insult.)

Well, so far you've implied that I "cheated" by running the avengers in formation. I didn't. Not once.
You also called me mentally challenged when I suggested using the same load out against each target, because list tailoring isn't good and marines can't switch out weapons.
You've also lied.

Frankly, I don't find you are arguing in good faith. None of my numbers were BS (nobody, not once, said my math was wrong including yourself). I also did quite a bit more math than you in the last thread, comparing Marines and DA against a large number of targets and against each other before refuting any claims. Your numbers, however, were wrong because the assumptions they were based on were wrong. You arrived to a false conclusion. This isn't a bad thing, we are making some assumptions here (Didn't include a combi, assume no exarch/formation for eldar, assume plasma weapons never overheat/die, assume no buffs from any psyker), but you don't need to make things up and insult other posters who disagree with you (bitch about it above, for example).

"If you are going to hate on a faction's players because of what they could do, not because of what they actually do, YOU are the problem, not the Eldar player."

Maybe I've just been around too long. Eldar have been getting the royal treatment since *2ND* ed. It's getting hard to swallow at this point. Same crap, different decade.

Reread that post.

I had thought *you* had not included cover. It would have explained your numbers. I never said *you* used BS5 A3. It was a different thread, and probably a different poster. Go upthread and reread my response.

For numbers, what those numbers would show if Tacs Rapid Fired then DAs responded?

A Boltgun has a (2/3)(2/3)(1/2) chance to kill a DA. 2/9 kills/shot.

A Shuriken round has a (2/3)(1/3)(1/3) chance of a nonrend kill, plus (2/3)(1/6)(2/3) chance of a rend kill. 4/27 kills/shot.

Assuming, like you said, the Tacs shoot first, 10vs 10:

Tacs kill:
10x2x(2/9) = 4+4/9ths die
5+5/9 DAs return fire
5+5/9x2x(4/27) is about 48/27, or a bit less than 2.

Now we have 8 Tacs and 6 DAs.

I don't need to finish that math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Aki,
About me lying about trying to pull a fast one when I did an analysis vs 2PG. If you can't be bothered to reread that post despite harping on me so much about it since then, there really is no hope.

Its hard to be secretive about something *explicitly stated in the initial post*.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
Hey dude. Okay, memory is a little hazy but i'll try - he had ten fire dragons, ten warp spiders 6 swooping hawks three windriders a farseer on a jetbike, five rangers, two blobs of guardians one with scatter laser the other with a bright lance. i think there was other stuff, but i really can't remember! i took a fully decked out Archmagos lachrimallus with an abeyant, macchiator array, MC photon thruster etc; i also took two tech-priest auxillia units both with reductor adept (fluffy) and an extra 'lacyraemarta' adept - one unit had 2 HB servitors and two flamer servitors and the other had 4 flamer servitors - i spent the remaining points on thrall units with 'revenant alchemistry' and 'induction chargers' so they all had a 3+ FNP while near the tech-priests (who stayed near my board edge on eigther side of the Archmagos).
There was a fair amount of buildings (it would probably count as a city fight) and three objectives - one in our deployment zones and one in the middle.
Around turn three i had lost all my leadership and my opponent allowed me to keep doing my 'ruthless assault' rolls despite my warlord being dead so leaving a squad of thralls on my home objective i strated to rush what i had left forward in the hope of getting units back and holding the centre objective when the game ended, but i didn't get any back and he just CC'd all i had off the centre objective while the swooping hawks dropped next to the thralls on my home objective who enjoyed the best rolling i did all game to survive thier shooting, assault them in return and win the combat! no sweeping advance (that would have been nice) but reconsolidated on my objective and we called the game there as he had all the things which just killed everything else bearing down on them.

I killed his rangers, a single jetbike, a couple of warp spiders some guardians (10 i think?), a trio of fire dragons and 3 swooping hawks.

My mate did thank me a lot for the game and i was intrested to see how my buildings would affect things.

I think I can diagnose the problem: I'm not very familiar with Mechanicus Auxilia (pardon me if I get the name wrong; I don't play 30k), but it doesn't seem like you have many vehicles or high-toughness models. With the units the Eldar player brought, he could easily mulch through infantry units, especially with the Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks. Maybe consider bringing more vehicles to the next matchup, or some MCs?

The idea behined the match was no vehicles because thats my speciality as the ordo reductor.

The massive unit of warp spiders that i knew he'd bought stopped me taking my thanatar - everything is I2 so they wound everything on a 2+ (even my Archmagos) and fire dragons have a decent chance of bringing one down in one round of shooting too, so i didn't take one, i thought i could maybe swamp him in numb bodies; but alas, t'was not to be.

I recon if it happens again i'll bring my myrmidon destructors with irradiation engines.

(It's 'The Mechanicum' and comes in 'taghmata' 'legio cybernetica' or 'ordo reductor' flavours)

That Eldar list would do just fine against vehicles, I think. Lots of heavy hitters to stop them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, where did I lie?!?

Bharring wrote:
Reread that post.

I had thought *you* had not included cover. It would have explained your numbers. I never said *you* used BS5 A3. It was a different thread, and probably a different poster. Go upthread and reread my response.

For numbers, what those numbers would show if Tacs Rapid Fired then DAs responded?

A Boltgun has a (2/3)(2/3)(1/2) chance to kill a DA. 2/9 kills/shot.

A Shuriken round has a (2/3)(1/3)(1/3) chance of a nonrend kill, plus (2/3)(1/6)(2/3) chance of a rend kill. 4/27 kills/shot.

Assuming, like you said, the Tacs shoot first, 10vs 10:

Tacs kill:
10x2x(2/9) = 4+4/9ths die
5+5/9 DAs return fire
5+5/9x2x(4/27) is about 48/27, or a bit less than 2.

Now we have 8 Tacs and 6 DAs.

I don't need to finish that math.

Real game play is where tacs fall apart anyway. I'm all for mathhammer, but I think we are hitting the limits of its usefulness here.

No matter the statistics they are still statistics... that are based on Random dice rolls... math hammer is fine and all but to base the whole game on it means you are playing the game wrong

People saw this thread. Got angry. Clicked it. And began spreading more eldar hate.

Geeze i wish i had that kind of time on my hands. My army would probably be more than an 8th painted. I would love to have the time to play my eldar buddy.

What I most definitely would not do is waste my time and life bitching at him and making his experience with the hobby far less enjoyable. That, is a dick move. I don't think I would have many opponents in that scenario. Nor would I feel entitled to actually play with an eldar player, because I have the self awareness to know I was being terribly rude to them and shouldn't expect them to enjoy themselves around me at all, let alone during a 3 hour game of toy soldiers.

I just don't get it... Do you guys even like this game? Is this some sort of masochistic thing, like staying at a job you hate because reasons? Can't we all just fething get along?

There's just so much amazing fun and fulfillment in this hobby. People get caught up in the effectiveness of units and forget its a game involving two people with feelings and time put into their army. I'm not talking about TFG. I mean normal dudes that like the game. I'm not trying to be a bleeding heart here. I just can't imagine being an eldar player and going through all this. I'd probably get weighed down and just quit, and not talk to my gaming buddies nearly as much as I used to.

The craziest thing is the eldar players keep playing and loving their army in the face of all this crushing dislike. They would probably never refuse a game against you guys, even if you brought your stinkiest cheese. Before you say it, i'm aware they have the tools to counter your cheese. But my point remains. Theyre just asking for a reprieve from all this bullgak so they can love the hobby without getting gakked on.

Do you eldar haters hate eldar, or the game itself? Or GW? I think you hate the game and have to throw that hatred at the easiest target available like it's some sort of outlet. Why dont you just stop playing if it's a negative enough experience to force others to dislike the hobby too. Nobody will miss the negativity.

For what it's worth i know some eldar stuff is OP. But so is the rampant negativity. It's getting to me, and i don't even play the new hotness. I just feel like you're all wasting your time bombarding eldar players with hate when it might be more productive for everyone to constantly bombard GW with emails.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you are going to hate on a faction's players because of what they could do, not because of what they actually do, YOU are the problem, not the Eldar player."

Maybe I've just been around too long. Eldar have been getting the royal treatment since *2ND* ed. It's getting hard to swallow at this point. Same crap, different decade.

I get that sentiment. I'm just saying, take a breath and realize some Eldar players aren't that unreasonable. And sometimes things aren't quite as bad as they seem at first.

Example from 3rd I've given already. Eldar player deploys Wraithlord with star cannon and opponent thinks here we go with spamming OP stuff. Then no more lords and only other Star cannon is on a Falcon. Suddenly context shows reasonableness if opponent can get past the initial shock. The very real problem though is that some opponents never get past that first shock and spend the entire game complaining about OP wraithlords and star cannons never realizing that the reality is that the list they are facing isn't that frightening.

To be fair, they may sometimes be justified in their initial impression. One starcannon wraithlord, follows another follows another. Or for more contemporary examples Wave serpent with min avengers x6 with old codex, or scat bike spam with the new.

And I feel for you if your local area only has bad Eldar players, but it isn't that way everywhere.

Thyhadras wrote:
No matter the statistics they are still statistics... that are based on Random dice rolls... math hammer is fine and all but to base the whole game on it means you are playing the game wrong

The law of large numbers of dice are much more in play now than in 2nd ed, though. Therefore, mathhammer is more accurate than ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"The very real problem though is that some opponents never get past that first shock and spend the entire game complaining about OP wraithlords and star cannons never realizing that the reality is that the list they are facing isn't that frightening. "

I've played this game enough to know the difference between a list with two priority targets and a list that's shooting me with 100+ S6 shots a turn from 36" away. I don't think these situations are comparable at all.

You just said that you actually ran the numbers with Tacs Rapid Firing first, and DAs firing back, and DAs won.

It was an outlandish enough claim I felt it should be demonstrated false.

Of course that rarely happens.

The dueling claims you're referring to?
The first one was that I wasn't sure they could, which I had also put in the first post (go ahead, look up the last modified date. Fairly sure it was before any responses, if at all. Certainly isn't recent).
The second claim was, that as I wasn't sure it was true, I sort of "split the difference" between 2 at 5 and 1+combi at 5. Even if what I thought might be true wasn't, there was another possibility that also made the numbers reasonable.

Not only are those two thoughts *not* mutually exclusive, the second is literally predicated on the first!

You're so desperate to discredit me that you seem awfully invested in me being some dirty rotten liar trash or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for fun to play against, consider a pure Drop Pod army.
To some players, its autowin. To others, its autolose. Countering it is something every "competitive" player needs to know. Either way, wouldn't it usually be unfun for both players?

Bharring wrote:
You just said that you actually ran the numbers with Tacs Rapid Firing first, and DAs firing back, and DAs won.

It was an outlandish enough claim I felt it should be demonstrated false.

Of course that rarely happens.

Looking back at the math from the other thread, I ran it so the rapid fire was without cover.
With cover, I ran it so that marines fire once, but not at rapid fire range.
This is my mistake, I had to double check the thread to see what I had done.

If you admit it rarely happens why did you bring it up? What point does it serve to prove?

Bharring wrote:

The dueling claims you're referring to?
The first one was that I wasn't sure they could, which I had also put in the first post (go ahead, look up the last modified date. Fairly sure it was before any responses, if at all. Certainly isn't recent).
The second claim was, that as I wasn't sure it was true, I sort of "split the difference" between 2 at 5 and 1+combi at 5. Even if what I thought might be true wasn't, there was another possibility that also made the numbers reasonable.

No, because you claimed they did these wounds per wound. A combi doesn't work every round, only on the first. You only see combis taken on drop pods for this reason (which I also addressed).

Not only are those two thoughts *not* mutually exclusive, the second is literally predicated on the first!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

...
There's just so much amazing fun and fulfillment in this hobby. People get caught up in the effectiveness of units and forget its a game involving two people with feelings and time put into their army. I'm not talking about TFG. I mean normal dudes that like the game. I'm not trying to be a bleeding heart here. I just can't imagine being an eldar player and going through all this. I'd probably get weighed down and just quit, and not talk to my gaming buddies nearly as much as I used to.

The craziest thing is the eldar players keep playing and loving their army in the face of all this crushing dislike. They would probably never refuse a game against you guys, even if you brought your stinkiest cheese. Before you say it, i'm aware they have the tools to counter your cheese. But my point remains. Theyre just asking for a reprieve from all this bullgak so they can love the hobby without getting gakked on.
...

Great post.

One thing that is missing from many of the critiques is this effort to look at things from the Eldar players perspective. The critic can't be expected to buy some new units or use a different army to adapt to the Eldar book, but the Eldar player is expected to not play the faction he likes best at all which necessarily means he has to spend for a different army he may not like.

Or when GW suddenly makes his particular units really powerful, he has to shelve them and get weak stuff because I shouldn't have to update my army to face yours, you should update your army so I can feel I have a chance. It is a double standard and the Eldar guy has to absorb the anger that should be directed at GW.

The whole time I played Eldar I was walking on eggshells trying not to tick people off and even when I used bad lists that didn't win much people would grumble. I would have to not use stuff I may have wanted to for fluff or coolness purposes because I'm not in it to ruin someone else's game if I can avoid it.

I never minded fair critiques. The annoyance is when there is a reasonable tactical or list building counter that people can't or won't grasp and just grumble instead.

" I shouldn't have to update my army to face yours"

I have all BA units in high quantity. It's updated. I shouldn't need allies. Eldar don't.

Martel732 wrote:
I've played this game enough to know the difference between a list with two priority targets and a list that's shooting me with 100+ S6 shots a turn from 36" away. I don't think these situations are comparable at all.

Good. Even though I am replying to you, I'm not taking about you specifically with my posts. My observation is that Eldar critics sometimes either can't get past that first step, or if they realize they can effectively counter feel the need to continuously grumble about how OP XY or Z is. 100+ S6 is really bad, but then someone limits themselves to essentially the old rules of one gun per three bikes and they still have to hear the complaints. Even if they just take shuricat bikes they hear the complaints because all that matters is bikes are OP how dare you take them.

Again not saying you personally are this way, but it is a persistent, simple, erroneous attitude. The Eldar guy tries to accommodate and still has to take verbal abuse.

Believe it or not, I am capable of thinking something is true, but considering that I might be wrong *at the same time*. I think most people are.

I thought something was probably true. I considered it being false. I considered another condition existing with the same numbers was reason enough to post before checking. And I stated my assumption in the post.

Get over it.

Why do I bring up a situation that doesn't happen? Because you just claimed it a few posts back! "Proving" all my math wrong! I don't think its an important setup to analyze, but if it worked out the way you had claimed, then it would preempt any other discussion. It was important to note the claim was wrong.

And the last time I saw your numbers, less than 8 DAs were killing 2.8something Marines in cover in a round. A correction:
8x2x(4/27) is 64/27 is 2.37. So clearly, less than 8 DAs don't kill 2.8+ Marines a round. Between that and rounding, recursing through the entire matchup, your numbers were very, very wrong. I'll admit I just assumed you had included no cover, but didn't have time then to work out what you did wrong.

Oh, and I use Combis all the time without pods. I may not be a competitive player, but clearly it happens. And I face them, too.

You didn't quote all the times my math was supposedly "proved wrong", so I didn't look it up. When one leadin specifies you, then another separate paragraph outlines a similar incident that "someone" did, I assumed that wouldn't imply that that "someone" was you. I'm a terrible communicator. I did not mean to imply that it was you.

Another huge issue is what counters scatterbikes is not too hot against TriRiptide. BA can't get close to being able to challenge both with a single build.

Yeah, the game as is blows for competitive play.

I had such high hopes for the new Eldar dex. T5 Wraiths and Decurion aside, everything preceding it was so well done.

I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul. Even as a casual game, it sucks. Sorry, but it's the truth. We shouldn't have to go through hours of deliberations and hostage negotiations before we can agree to a relatively balanced pickup game. There's nothing casual about a buy-in cost of around 500 bucks.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly shops for the latest power builds. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly jumps ship to the newest power army. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

But a lot of them are the Serpent Spam guys from 6th. And some of those were the invinci-Falcon players from 4th.

Martel732 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly jumps ship to the newest power army. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

But a lot of them are the Serpent Spam guys from 6th. And some of those were the invinci-Falcon players from 4th.

And I'm sure a lot of them jumped ship to IG, BA, or GK during 5th edition.

What I'm saying is, I only blame the players if they're fueling this ridiculous state of Pay-To-Winhammer. Those guys are the guys who went out and bought Falcons for 4th, another army for 5th, 6 Serpents for 6th, and a bucketload of Scatterbikes for 7th. And it's hard to say that even those people are worthy of insult. I mean, if you've got 'em, smoke 'em. If winning a game of toy soldiers justifies spending thousands of dollars on units and commission painting per month, then more power to you. Lord knows I spend more on luxury watches and firearms

I think that hating a codex is not a problem. Declining a game base on someone army (not his list), bullying people because of their choice of army, verbally abuse Eldar player... Those seem like the real problem to me, and I think it's different than hating the Eldar codex, or Eldar faction.

I reallly really hate playing against Eldar. And that's before their buff. But when I was playing a game agains one friend who have some (and he was not powerlisting, but still pretty close to it) I would taunt him a little for sure.

But if I felt his list was too strong, I would tell him to make some adjustement for the next game. If he didn't, I don't play him.

If someone that I never played against come ask me for a game, and play Eldar, I wouldn't decline. I would play the game. Wrost case scenario: he would destroy me in 1-2 turn, I would ask him to tone is down big time if he want to face me again, and pack my thing. If this guy ask for a game again, I would play him only if he did tone is list.

I wouldn't insult him for playing an OP army. I wouldn't insult him for bringing a Wraithnight. I would play the game if it's fun, and would tell him if it wasn't. If it wasn't and he act like an ass, I would stop playing the guy, because is problem is obviously not Eldar, but more like a personality problem lol.

At least a bunch of DAs riding around in Serpents isn't too unflluffy. Why risk precious life against a bunch if trash. It sire was stupid, and that much of a single aspect was certenly un-eldary.

But a bunch of Windriders on a joyride packed to the gills with heavy weapons? Odd enough, but Samm-Hain or some young punk Prince might do that sort of thing. With some Honored Dead at risk? Hell no. That's we're-boned time. That's hold-to-the-last desperation. Stop fooling around and fight.

Not quite as bad as trusting some of your Honored Dead to some random crazy Archon for a stroll in the who-knows-where.

About as fluffy as Black Templars assisting Khorne in destroying a Shrine world.

Yo, out of curiosity wouldn't 2 Typhon tanks deal pretty well with Scatterbikes? Ignore Cover S10 AP1 massive blast, and AV14 means they can't be hurt by S6.

Tau might have a hard time since it's a weapon that doubles out Broadsides and bypasses Skimmer jinks.

You still need an answer for Wraithknights but knocking out most of the Scatterbikes will give your MSU an advantage. At that point maybe you can win by playing to objectives.

Martel732 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly jumps ship to the newest power army. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

But a lot of them are the Serpent Spam guys from 6th. And some of those were the invinci-Falcon players from 4th.

I guess you play with gakky people. I know an Eldar player form 3rd edition and he isn't half the donkey-cave you're making Eldar players out to be in this and other threads.

In fact, I'm tired of your crying. I'm taking a one year break from your posts. See ya next fall, dude.

FW prices. Ugh. Are Typhons one of the things that BA can't have?

I can hate on tau just as easily.

Bharring wrote:
Believe it or not, I am capable of thinking something is true, but considering that I might be wrong *at the same time*. I think most people are.

I thought something was probably true. I considered it being false. I considered another condition existing with the same numbers was reason enough to post before checking. And I stated my assumption in the post.

Get over it.

Again...combis aren't the same thing as having another weapon. You were arguing that marines are better against 2+ saves then DA because of the extra plasma weapon.
But if you don't want to discuss this anymore its fine by me.

Bharring wrote:

Why do I bring up a situation that doesn't happen? Because you just claimed it a few posts back! "Proving" all my math wrong! I don't think its an important setup to analyze, but if it worked out the way you had claimed, then it would preempt any other discussion. It was important to note the claim was wrong.

Fair enough. I only ask because you've brought up other such corner case situations, like the example with krak grenades.

Bharring wrote:

And the last time I saw your numbers, less than 8 DAs were killing 2.8something Marines in cover in a round. A correction:
8x2x(4/27) is 64/27 is 2.37. So clearly, less than 8 DAs don't kill 2.8+ Marines a round. Between that and rounding, recursing through the entire matchup, your numbers were very, very wrong. I'll admit I just assumed you had included no cover, but didn't have time then to work out what you did wrong.

I know its hard, but you're going to have to quote something. I don't remember my math perfectly, and I'm not going to go back through the old thread to find it. I'll say that, at the time, I was running a lot of numbers and nothing got challenged by anyone. Including yourself.
In each case, I wrote down how many hits, wounds, kills were made, in that order for every calculation (unless only something small had changed). I mentioned the condition for each calculation at the top, and spaced out different conditions. I'm a scientist by trade, I like to make sure my numbers are as correct as they can be, but also that my methodology can be followed easily by anyone.

Bharring wrote:

Oh, and I use Combis all the time without pods. I may not be a competitive player, but clearly it happens. And I face them, too.

That's fine. If you want to discuss combis on marines we can. Its much harder to account for, since it only fires once and we are looking at damage over the entire game, and the eldar player is less likely to allow you into rapid fire range, but alright.

Bharring wrote:

You didn't quote all the times my math was supposedly "proved wrong", so I didn't look it up. When one leadin specifies you, then another separate paragraph outlines a similar incident that "someone" did, I assumed that wouldn't imply that that "someone" was you. I'm a terrible communicator. I did not mean to imply that it was you.

No, I didn't want to go back through an old thread that had ended with the marine players being proven wrong against most opponent types. Quoting old threads is annoying, and I don't find the search function useful.
But in general, if you're talking to one person and say something on a forum, they'll assume its directed at them. You could always go @ XXXX if you think the quote function is difficult to use.
During that thread, however, you did relatively little much when compared to what i did outside of the PG example. Mostly it was claims being made, math disproving it, and then arguments over semantics (how much is a lot better? for example).

But again, the point is, DA are better than Tacs. You need extremely corner case situations where this isn't the case. This is mainly due to rending, battle focus, and the 6 extra inches on rapid fire range. One or two of these wouldn't be too bad, but all three make them very annoying to deal with. The formation would make it no contest, while the Tacs don't benefit as much from the formation.
Granted, neither of these units are power units from their dex.

What can I say, I'm much more concerned with being misleading or a liar than I am with being correct. Perhaps I really don't care to resume that argument?

On the other hand, I'm easily trolled.

Objectives mattering in the first *10* game turns is a "corner case"? Ever being outside 18" or inside 12" is a corner case? With infinite time and space, sure, DAs can beat Tacs in a vacuum, but neither are true in the game. DAs can beat Tacs. Tacs can beat DAs.

The Krak Grenade was a blowup over a snarky remark in response to someone claiming they never ever had any AP4 weapons in any of their lists. It was an off the cuff comment, and I regret it.

The post in question you're currently complaining about is in *this thread*. IIRC, the first paragraph was about your numbers, second about another specific individual, and the third not specified. Why would the third be implicitly assumed to be the first?

Can we just agree that dire avengers really aren't that objectionable? I personally would take them over tacs because I like their rules much better than the "guess which loadout you need THIS game!" subgame with tactical marines. As well as the false advertising for how accomplished tactical marines are and all that good garbage.

The objectionable part is where 10 DA get to kick over the remaining two tac marines after the rest of the Eldar list has had its way.

If you take away fake-Rending, DAs would exactly tie Marines while Marines rapid fire, except for the fact that Marines get first salvo. All other situations, Marines win.

If you take away Battle Focus, instead, the exchange goes Marines get a 1 shot Alpha, DAs respond with 2 shots as a beta, then Marines Rapid Fire from then on. Marines win in every category there too, unless there was forcing the Marines to stay outside 12".

If you take away the "extra 6inch range", but leave the Maxine's 24" RF, Marines win, even better. Its like not having battle focus, in that DAs would be, at most, 18" away after BFing. Marines move up, and rapid fire. After getting the alpha, probably even two rounds of it. Alternately, you could replace the A2 with RF24, just like the bolter. In that case, Marines win, whether the DAs decide to trade shots at 24" or 12". So, without the "free" +6" on the two-shot, which ignores that Marines have 6" more range than even that, but only get a single shot, whichever way you look at it, DAs lose every engagement.

So no. Take away a single one of those three things and DAs lose to Marines in every matchup. L

Martel732 wrote:
FW prices.

Proxy it! Come on dude.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
FW prices.

Proxy it! Come on dude.

Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If you take away fake-Rending, DAs would exactly tie Marines while Marines rapid fire, except for the fact that Marines get first salvo. All other situations, Marines win.

If you take away Battle Focus, instead, the exchange goes Marines get a 1 shot Alpha, DAs respond with 2 shots as a beta, then Marines Rapid Fire from then on. Marines win in every category there too, unless there was forcing the Marines to stay outside 12".

If you take away the "extra 6inch range", but leave the Maxine's 24" RF, Marines win, even better. Its like not having battle focus, in that DAs would be, at most, 18" away after BFing. Marines move up, and rapid fire. After getting the alpha, probably even two rounds of it. Alternately, you could replace the A2 with RF24, just like the bolter. In that case, Marines win, whether the DAs decide to trade shots at 24" or 12". So, without the "free" +6" on the two-shot, which ignores that Marines have 6" more range than even that, but only get a single shot, whichever way you look at it, DAs lose every engagement.

So no. Take away a single one of those three things and DAs lose to Marines in every matchup. L

Other than the fact that the marines probably got raped by the rest of the Eldar list before the fire fight started.

The CWE book having so much OPness makes it really, really hard for people to look at the rest of the stuff in the book reasonably.

To many people, DAs are just the douches who ride the Serpents, and only step out to clean up the trash.

Of course they look OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With your collection, Martel, you might have the bits to scratch build a few FW things like that...

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.

If you can clear out the bikes, there's ways BA can strike before a WK while applying Instant Death. ID will do extra wounds and deny FNP. Stomp will be a PITA, so you definitely want the kill on the turn you charge.

Either way, once you wipe out most of his Scatterbike firepower, he'll need to push Wraithknights onto objectives or lose. 2x D-Cannon shots is not compelling firepower against a Tac Squad! Either way, if you force him to take objectives rather than simply sit back and blast you off the board, it opens up options since he can no longer win the game from 36" away.

Force the game into VP victories rather than tabling and you're probably going to see Tacs differently. Treat them as a tool for forcing enemy action towards objectives. Sticking a Heavy Flamer and a Power Weapon on them makes them food if your army is getting tabled. They are a waste of points and irrelevant. However, if the game comes down to troop versus troop squabbling over the last objectives, those BA tacs are a nightmare to shift or get assaulted by.

Come back here after beating 27x Scatterbikes and 2x Wraithknights with BA and I think the whole forum will buy you a beer. Get on it

The big problem sounds like its gonna be the WKs opening those up too early.

It may come down to who gets first turn.

Any thoughts on slowing down the WKs for that style list? How far back can they be? Would a Void Shield Generator help?

Any sort of shenanigans seems fair against those sorts of lists.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.

If you can clear out the bikes, there's ways BA can strike before a WK while applying Instant Death. ID will do extra wounds and deny FNP. Stomp will be a PITA, so you definitely want the kill on the turn you charge.

Either way, once you wipe out most of his Scatterbike firepower, he'll need to push Wraithknights onto objectives or lose. 2x D-Cannon shots is not compelling firepower against a Tac Squad! Either way, if you force him to take objectives rather than simply sit back and blast you off the board, it opens up options since he can no longer win the game from 36" away.

Force the game into VP victories rather than tabling and you're probably going to see Tacs differently. Treat them as a tool for forcing enemy action towards objectives. Sticking a Heavy Flamer and a Power Weapon on them makes them food if your army is getting tabled. They are a waste of points and irrelevant. However, if the game comes down to troop versus troop squabbling over the last objectives, those BA tacs are a nightmare to shift or get assaulted by.

Come back here after beating 27x Scatterbikes and 2x Wraithknights with BA and I think the whole forum will buy you a beer. Get on it

Challenge accepted!