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Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/14 20:58:08


Post by: JohnHwangDD


SPM/ND is failed



On Feb 18, 2019, SPM gave a summary Update on all of their failed KS:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2420163

tl;dr:
* SPM needs ~$1.2M to complete delivery of their KS
* SPM doesn't even have the <$50k required to complete WotF delivery
____

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iu7HOs3mkd6GCve9LqHT_9Q5rdghW5xY/view?fbclid=IwAR1SrieVM5rhAhunIeGZwzPbJFhZoeCjdqba4p4MZ5v9-Sif819MYxQHXQ8
____

Kickstarter is Successfully Funded!
$1,290,522 raised from 6,611 backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends

On March 23, 2018, SPM provided the following update:
"SPM" wrote:Production

First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)

Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer. We are beginning this shift with just Explore in order to iron out the process. We will then work with both of our manufacturing partners towards the creation of all of the additional rewards.

We have done (and will continue) all due diligence to ensure that all Super Dungeon product remains consistent and of the high quality you expect across all products. It is every bit as import to us, as it is to you, that the final Super Dungeon product is an exceptional experience.

This shift naturally leads to the question of timelines. While we have done our best to provide you with accurate estimates of timelines, we have obviously not been successful in our estimates. We apologize for this. It has not been our intention in any way to mislead you. Estimates were made based upon the best information we had available at the time. Going forward, we will no longer be providing time estimates. We will only be providing concrete milestones once they have been achieved. While this does not provide the false “comfort” of a delivery estimate, it will make it so that when we update you with a production milestone it will have the weight of having been hit.

Refund Policy Update

At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.

If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explore-legends/posts/2144515

If you cut through the crap, SPM is doing nothing to produce anything, despite previously claiming they were ready to produce Wave 1. Their last "production" update was March 23 - 3 months ago, and nothing has happened since then. They are no closer to delivery today, than they were in March. There is zero progress on that front. Compare with Starfinder or WotF or anything else, and it's clear that SPM isn't doing a damn thing on the SDE:L KS.

SPM also willfully and materially breach the contract by unilaterally declaring that they won't accept refunds, despite (obviously) not being within the 8 weeks window. Not that they have provided any refunds since Nov-Dec. 2017 (6 months ago), despite written replies to individual backers stating that their refunds were approved and would be forthcoming.

On July 11, 2018, SPM posted the following:
"Soda Pop Miniatures" wrote:Hello Explorers,
We will be suspending updates until we next have a firm production update to share with you. We share your continued frustration, and apologize for the extended delays we are having in manufacturing and fulfilling your pledges. We remain 100% committed to providing you with an exceptional Super Dungeon product. For those of you who enjoy the continued exploration of the world of Super Dungeon, we will be moving our previews of the fiction content from the Explorer’s Guide to the website.


That's it folks. SPM is done.


BTW, on July 12, 2018, John Starck Cadice confirmed approved refunds were also on indefinite hold:
"John Starck Cadice" wrote:"we have regrettably had to withhold refunds until we deliver on projects and stem the bleeding of cost overruns and explosion of scope.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/911604765690849/?comment_id=911773369007322&reply_comment_id=912432028941456


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/14 22:03:20


Post by: Schmapdi


I am not sure I like the sound of SDE 2.0 - getting fixed rulebooks is all well and good - but I already have painted heroes/kobolds etc - I don't fancy having to paint all that again. But I also dislike the idea of there being nicer, better sculpts of all the classic heroes/kobolds etc. I need 50 remade SDE minis like I need an extra hole in the head. I've barely dented TFK stuff.

Add in the expansion and stretch goals and we're talking another 100 minis easy.

Plus will they be printing errata'd cards from TFK? Far more errors there than in the rulebook.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/14 22:12:52


Post by: pax macharia


Alright! This just made my day, looking forward to the new stuff.

Schmapdi wrote:
I am not sure I like the sound of SDE 2.0 - getting fixed rulebooks is all well and good - but I already have painted heroes/kobolds etc - I don't fancy having to paint all that again. But I also dislike the idea of there being nicer, better sculpts of all the classic heroes/kobolds etc. I need 50 remade SDE minis like I need an extra hole in the head. I've barely dented TFK stuff.

Add in the expansion and stretch goals and we're talking another 100 minis easy.

Plus will they be printing errata'd cards from TFK? Far more errors there than in the rulebook.


These are all personal issues caused by your own habits and preferences.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/14 22:42:03


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Spoiler:
Ninja Division wrote:Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division Publishing are happy to announce the upcoming Super Dungeon® Legends Kickstarter! This exciting Kickstarter will feature three brand new products in a single pledge: Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition, The Midnight Tower level expansion, and Super Dungeon® Legends boxed set.

Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition, brings players the rules from our highly successful Forgotten King expansion, in an all new affordable boxset. The ruleset has been updated to include all of the errata and clarifications from the last year of player feedback, and will continue to be fully playable with all existing cards. Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition, features new sculpts of the nine classic Heroes, all new kobolds, drakes, Rex the kobold ogre, and Starfire the Ruby Dragon. The classic Dragonback Peaks tiles have been updated and reimagined, featuring all new stunning art, to bring them in line with other 2nd Edition tilesets from Forgotten King, Von Drakk Ghost House, and Dungeons of Crystalia. To further increase replayability, all monsters come with multiple profiles. Battle shadow kobolds from the depths of the Nether Rifts, elemental drakes from the Fire Flows, a mighty armored kobold ogre, among others!

The Midnight Tower level expansion reveals the dreaded armies of The Midnight Queen. Armies of baroque-armored Nether Elves issue forth from the corrupted Tower of the Goddess. Within their ranks, cursed Spider Speakers summon scuttling hordes of spiders, spinning webs of shadow and poisoning their foes. Alongside them march powerful Knights of the Tower on spectral steeds, while Tower Stalkers lurk in the shadows weakening the mightiest Heroes, before their fellows strike the final blow. Three new Heroes take up the call to adventure: the rugged Hearthsworn Tincan, sneaky Cat Burglar, and brutal Riftling Warrior.

Super Dungeon® Legends is the centerpiece of this mighty Super Dungeon® extravaganza. Legends introduces progressive campaign play to Super Dungeon® Explore. Heroes battle through adventures earning crystals to spend on powerful new skills and abilities. Advance in class to unlock even more powerful versions. Dismantle your loot and treasure to craft bizarre and wondrous new items, under the watchful gaze of the Golden Eye of the Goddess. Two new and powerful dice are introduced—Citrine and Amethyst—providing new possibilities to combat. New smaller dungeon rooms and hallways make their debut, increasing the diversity of dungeon layouts. If you have always wanted to roleplay in the world of Super Dungeon®, Legends provides rules for narrative adventures, nonplayer characters, and out-of-combat skills. An all new world guide further expands on the realms, races, monsters, and personalities of Crystalia.

All this and more awaits you in just the starting pledge for Super Dungeon® Legends! As always, we have thought up a wide range of fun and unique stretch goals to further increase the possibilities for your games of Super Dungeon®. Over the next several weeks we will preview content for the upcoming Kickstarter. Be sure to check back every Monday and Thursday so you don’t miss a thing!

http://ninjadivision.com/super-dungeon-legends-kickstarter/

I look at it like this:

SDE 2.0 - I own the original set, updated with the FK rules and cards and counters, so I don't need alternate sculpts of what I already own. I could potentially use alternate tiles, however...

The Midnight Tower - I'm excited by the idea of expanding into a new area, along with new Heroes and especially new monsters. If this is a full-on expansion for the 3 Heroes and what sounds like 3+ spawn points worth of monsters, then I'll probably pledge for this. If it has new tiles, then I'm not really pressed for remakes of the original tiles.

SDE Legends - this is also interesting, with variable-sized rooms and halls to make D&D-like layouts, so it's rules, dice and map components. Hopefull, Legends isn't monsters, as SDE already has enough of those, although Legendary Bosses wouldn't be unwelcome.

So overall, my strongest interest is with the Midnight Tower. Legends is something I'm on the fence about, while SDE 2.0 is not particularly compelling.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/14 22:47:15


Post by: greenskin lynn


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I look at it like this:

SDE 2.0 - I own the original set, updated with the FK rules and cards and counters, so I don't need alternate sculpts of what I already own. I could potentially use alternate tiles, however...

The Midnight Tower - I'm excited by the idea of expanding into a new area, along with new Heroes and especially new monsters. If this is a full-on expansion for the 3 Heroes and what sounds like 3+ spawn points worth of monsters, then I'll probably pledge for this. If it has new tiles, then I'm not really pressed for remakes of the original tiles.

SDE Legends - this is also interesting, with variable-sized rooms and halls to make D&D-like layouts, so it's rules, dice and map components. Hopefull, Legends isn't monsters, as SDE already has enough of those, although Legendary Bosses wouldn't be unwelcome.

So overall, my strongest interest is with the Midnight Tower. Legends is something I'm on the fence about, while SDE 2.0 is not particularly compelling.

i'm in a similar boat, so i'm hoping there will be a pledge option without sde 2.0, but with the rest, or 2.0 minus the figures (i have no interest in painting another set of kobolds and whatnot)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 01:54:34


Post by: pax macharia


I for one have always wanted a compelling reason to get into SDE and I figure this is it. I didn't do they're last KS but I remember it was the same format, seemed really easy and smart to me.

How often do board games like these release rules separately though? I really don't know, but it can't be often from what I can tell.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 02:57:17


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


The thing about variable room size makes me think of Descent's Road To Legend and the smaller dungeons you could run in that.

If 2.0 gives me bite size dungeons that can wrap in an hour and/ or a possible "family" mode, I'll bite.

My kids preferred the original game's stuff to Forgotten King anyways.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 04:02:34


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 pax macharia wrote:
I for one have always wanted a compelling reason to get into SDE and I figure this is it. I didn't do they're last KS but I remember it was the same format, seemed really easy and smart to me.

How often do board games like these release rules separately though? I really don't know, but it can't be often from what I can tell.


SDE generally releases a PDF of the rules, once they're final.

In this case, I'm hoping they will at least release draft rules for 2.0.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 04:37:28


Post by: Schmapdi


I'm pretty sure when they talk about 2.0 they're talking about the rules we already got with TFK, just with the errata they released added in.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 04:43:14


Post by: Dentry


I'm fairly okay with this. New tiles and 'alternate' / 2.0 vanilla heroes sound good. Rather indifferent to the thought of more vanilla minions but the new models might change that if they look good enough. Starfire 2.5 could be... Legendary.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 04:51:32


Post by: Schmapdi


Yeah - I'm OK with alt heroes, and a new starefire (that I suspect will look more like King Starfire). But all new kobolds and whatnot feels like overkill. And more dice and more cards I already have ... etc etc.

It just seems weird to redo the vanilla core set when they just released TFK.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 05:29:27


Post by: ced1106


Could always be an IP issue. Rather than owning all the rights to the sculpts, they could have only had them for a certain period of time. Or they could be "taking advantage of" KS and expecting fans will be willing to pay the additional costs of new sculpts and art for an updated game, even though they have a set. Also, perhaps based on CMON's standalone expansions, they may be thinking that they need a shiny new standalone set in the campaign, to attract gamers who don't own SDE yet.

Several weeks? So... November or December?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 05:38:35


Post by: JohnHwangDD


ced1106 wrote:
Could always be an IP issue. Rather than owning all the rights to the sculpts, they could have only had them for a certain period of time.

Also, perhaps based on CMON's standalone expansions, they may be thinking that they need a shiny new standalone set in the campaign, to attract gamers who don't own SDE yet.

Several weeks? So... November or December?


Hm, yeah, I could see it as part of the CMoN / SDE breakup.

I wonder if SDE 2.0 would be a meaningful difference in starting point compared to FK. Would SDE skinny up the box to only 4 or 5 tiles total, fewer Heroes & Spawns for a lower price point? Maybe.

I think mid-November would be best. If it's close to Thanksgiving, maybe it's too late to finish in 2015?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 10:04:14


Post by: Sarouan


Argh, no! I don't have enough place left in my showcase!

Will have to pledge that, of course. A RPG in a Chibi World? Come on, take my money.

2.0 rules, sure, I can understand why. Games of SDE take quite some time. But I'm much more interested by these reculpts...

I have faith that Soda Pop can manage that fast enough. They really do a great work with their former kickstarters. No doubt that one can come quite quickly as well.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 10:29:10


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Interesting.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 12:21:18


Post by: nkelsch


I have seen a lot of 'I don't care about new sculpts' especially from board gamers. If you are not planning to collect and paint chibis, I can see a lot of the content of this new KS lay a huge fart right out of the gate for people who have existing content.

After seeing how NAS was mismanaged when they got too greedy and the rules issues which potentially doom the entire game, I don't have much faith in Sodapop for the rules, and if a lot of people don't care about duplicate sculpts they might have a big problem on their hands... Especially with AQ: Inferno looming which is a solid game with crossover appeal to regular boardgamers.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 12:50:58


Post by: Sarouan


NAS was not mismanaged. It was because of people saying a lot of false things about their rules, and then seeing their "proposals" actually brought other problems. If there was a mistake, it was Soda Pop listening to those "doom sayers".

About the "I don't care about new sculpts", we'll see once the Kickstarter will start. Pretty much believe it will be successful.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Soda Pop gives the opportunity to take just the rules - or maybe they will be in free download, who knows. For the maps, well...second edition hasn't the same size, so they needed to be redone. Simple as that.

AQ is a nice game. Still, it's different (even the Chibi, it's more "cartoon/comic" looking, IMHO). It's clearly PvP (well, Guild vs Guild actually ). SDE is more PvE/Classic Heroes vs Dungeon Master. Not the same game, not the same market. They're not really in competition - unless you think having chibi in a game automatically means it's the same.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 12:53:30


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


For all the people who won't back for those reasons, AQ:Inferno will loose a similar number who won't back because of all the exclusive content they can't get later (or could not get for the original game)

I see more issues with this being (apparently) a single pledge level when it would have been better to offer the redone game (which as you say is probably not for a lot who have the original and have already upgraded it via the decks in forgotten king) as one item,

and the totally new stuff as a second as that's going to appeal to evebybody


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 12:55:13


Post by: cincydooley


 Sarouan wrote:

AQ is a nice game. Still, it's different (even the Chibi, it's more "cartoon/comic" looking, IMHO). It's clearly PvP (well, Guild vs Guild actually ). SDE is more PvE/Classic Heroes vs Dungeon Master. Not the same game, not the same market. They're not really in competition - unless you think having chibi in a game automatically means it's the same.


I agree; the games are very different, and I think there's a place in every collection for both of them (especially if you're a chibi fan). That being said, they're definitely for the same market, and they definitely compete for gamers' finite dollars.

I'm just excited it looks like I'll finally be able to get rid of my original SDE V1 box; that thing is in rough shape!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 12:55:15


Post by: Nostromodamus


Aesthetically, I think AQ is Dragon Quest to SDE's Final Fantasy.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 13:05:15


Post by: Sarouan


To me, the inspiration is different. SDE clearly takes its own from old style arcade 8/16 bits RPG while AQ has many references from MMORPG (especially the PvP ones).

Visual is also not the same and while I own both of these games, I don't like to mix the models. I can feel a clear difference between them. Maybe it's just me, however.

When I want to play a fast and furious PvP game, I take Arcadia Quest. Really nice and simple rules, but full with tactics and sneaky tricks. When I want to take my time and hit some monsters full PvE style, Super Dungeon Explore is more suited.

Of course, I can play the PvP "Arena" rules for SDE as well. And soon, seems like the RPG will come. Not really something boardgamers will care about but SDE isn't just for boardgamers.


Ah, this is such a Golden Era for miniatures...even the Chibi ones. I'm so lucky to live in this age!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 16:38:25


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I think SPM learned a lot from the NAS KS, which is why they're showing more now. The NAS KS really came from a "we know what's best for you, and you're going to like it" mindset, and SPM had to retrench a couple of times. The fact that SPM had to completely revamp their core pledge concept based on backer feedback (complaints), that's clear proof of mismanagement on SPM's part. Had things gone the way they wanted, that never would have happened. The slow tease of information didn't do them any favors, either, with people trying to figure out what SPM was offering. Quite frankly, I think SPM missed the boat on the game itself. It should have been a Blood Bowl / Dreadball / Kaosball / Guildball type game, using SDE mechanics, rather than doing something completely different.

SPM building off their revamped SDE franchise ties their hands somewhat, as there has to be commonality with the recently-launched Forgotten King KS. They can't just do something completely random and expect backers to respond to that. Still, the rules issues win FK and NAS suggest that SPM now has to work harder on earning backer favor on the rules front.

Regardless, I am almost certainly backing for the Midnight Tower to add to my SDE collection. Whether I also back for Legends rules, that's up in the air.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 16:51:45


Post by: nkelsch


 Sarouan wrote:
NAS was not mismanaged. It was because of people saying a lot of false things about their rules, and then seeing their "proposals" actually brought other problems. If there was a mistake, it was Soda Pop listening to those "doom sayers".

About the "I don't care about new sculpts", we'll see once the Kickstarter will start. Pretty much believe it will be successful.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Soda Pop gives the opportunity to take just the rules - or maybe they will be in free download, who knows. For the maps, well...second edition hasn't the same size, so they needed to be redone. Simple as that.

AQ is a nice game. Still, it's different (even the Chibi, it's more "cartoon/comic" looking, IMHO). It's clearly PvP (well, Guild vs Guild actually ). SDE is more PvE/Classic Heroes vs Dungeon Master. Not the same game, not the same market. They're not really in competition - unless you think having chibi in a game automatically means it's the same.


Fake stretch goals, re-tooling of core pledges, multiple stalls say otherwise for the mismanagement. I broke down the stretches for TFK and NAS and seeign how they were expecting people to pay 30$ for about 60% of the content stuffed in a retail TFK add-on which was 30$ and then grow those later via stretches was totally unreasonable. The ONI aspect was also Unreasonable along with the Heroes. They had to combine a bunch of stretches and change the pacing when it was clear theyw ere not going to get a million dollars and they were not going to get there with 25k stretches which 2 out of 3 were fake due to the reduced value compared to other products.

The problem is, you can call AQ and SDE 'different games' but to claim they are not the same market is simply not true. Both are packaged and sold as BOARD GAMES and like it or not, share that market and while board games have different gameplay, they are both Ameritrash. The other reason they supposedly share a 'market' is because AQ is universally 'good' as a core game where SDE doesn't stand alone as a functional or good game.

People play AQ because the rules are tight, the gameplay is fun and it is worth playing regardless of figures. SDE is only played as a way to push SDE figures around a board, much how 40k is played to showcase and have a reason to collect 40k minis. Remove the minis and the 'theme' and what have you got? A pretty rough game with real problems and almost no appeal outside people trying to explicitly play with specific figures.

To pretend they are not in competition, even with the exact history between CMoN and Sodapop is simply not realistic and sounds like propaganda and wishful thinking.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 18:08:50


Post by: JohnHwangDD


nkelsch wrote:
SDE doesn't stand alone as a functional or good game.

People play AQ because the rules are tight, the gameplay is fun and it is worth playing regardless of figures. SDE is only played as a way to push SDE figures around a board, much how 40k is played to showcase and have a reason to collect 40k minis. Remove the minis and the 'theme' and what have you got? A pretty rough game with real problems and almost no appeal outside people trying to explicitly play with specific figures.

To pretend they are not in competition, even with the exact history between CMoN and Sodapop is simply not realistic and sounds like propaganda and wishful thinking.


Hold on there, hoss. I played a LOT of SDE 1E, and it was a very functional and very good game, with surprisingly tight gameplay between Consul and Heroes. For their first game, I was truly impressed with just how good their game was.

AQ may be a good game despite the figures, but SDE 1E was a great game with great figures. It wouldn't have been as cute with meeples or tokens, but it still would have played well enough. But I do agree that I preordered on the strength of the minis alone, because the minis are that good. I declined to back AQ because the minis are grotesque.

I do agree that AQ was specifically created by CMoN to compete with SPM's SDE.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 20:34:21


Post by: nkelsch


 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Hold on there, hoss. I played a LOT of SDE 1E, and it was a very functional and very good game, with surprisingly tight gameplay between Consul and Heroes. For their first game, I was truly impressed with just how good their game was.


Well that 'tightness' has had the barn doors blown off in TFK due to the extreme imbalance. In SDE 1.0 the limited number of heroes and spawns kept some of the balance creep under control, but TFK has a clear design aspect of 'we gonna make rules which are cool! and call imbalance difficulty level'.

That means that people need to pull their punches and basically 'COMP' the gameplay to make it fair or balanced and make the game functional. When certain monster choices are auto-win for consul and Ninja Cola exists, it shows they don't care about being a fair and balanced game... they want an 'experience'. Which is fine, but turns off a ton of people who want to have expectation of fairness. Seeing how well certain heroes do against themed monsters can be fun and is a great beer and pretzel experience, but grossly deviates from SDE 1.0 and the idea that the rules stand alone minus theme.

You want to call SDE a RPG toolkit system and not a boardgame? fine. I would agree to that... too bad it hasn't been marketed as such. Maybe this KS is an attempt to re-brand towards that? The problem is you will need to grossly alienate a large number of boardgamers and tell them at the door 'this really isn't for you, we don't plan to change and you won't like it.' That is basically what ends up happening when people buy the nice square box, play it and put it on the shelf.

AQ is the exact opposite, it was a solid game simply skinned to be chibi to fill a hole in CMoNs line and stick it to SDE knowing that there is a market for fantasy chibi minis outside the RPG toolkit system of SDE. AQ is one of the most bulletproof games I have seen hit the mini gaming in a long while. If it wasn't Chibi, AQ would have fit in well with B-sieged and Zombicide BP as a boardgame in a fantasy universe with cross-game ties. I actually think CMoN missed the boat a little, because having multiple gaming systems which can share themed minis means every release for Zombicide also releases levels for AQ and B-seiged and so on. It hits the mini collectors right in the pocketbook while providing endless expansion for games which pass the quality test for boardgamers.

SDE is basically 40k. People like the theme, it can be fun to play, severe imbalance requires COMP or pulled punches to make it work, an objectively poorly written game. If they are embracing the imbalance and wonky mechanics to make an experience generator and not a vs tactical fight, then so be it. Don't expect that path to appeal to a lot of the market.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 21:23:53


Post by: JohnHwangDD


You are aware that it is possible to play SDE:tFK using SDE 1E rules, right? And that one can calibrate difficulty to player skill and so forth, right?

I just think you're overly down on 2E. No, "Classic" is not as good as 1E, because SPM kinda lost track of what the game was supposed to be. And "Arcade" is a total mess. But as I noted above, people are working to "fix" 2E in various ways. I just think that one could use the Original 1E framework to simplify and speed the game, because it worked fine before.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 22:18:01


Post by: nkelsch


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You are aware that it is possible to play SDE:tFK using SDE 1E rules, right? And that one can calibrate difficulty to player skill and so forth, right?

I just think you're overly down on 2E. No, "Classic" is not as good as 1E, because SPM kinda lost track of what the game was supposed to be. And "Arcade" is a total mess. But as I noted above, people are working to "fix" 2E in various ways. I just think that one could use the Original 1E framework to simplify and speed the game, because it worked fine before.


Right, And I like the direction of some of the fan-fixes... and I am OK with SDE becoming an RPG toolkit where some heroes are EZ mode and others are more effort and the same with monsters. But that doesn't make a good GAME, but makes a framework of rules able to be deployed in a playable narrative system using specific models. It is basically the Age of Sigmar of Chibi games.

I was hoping that a 2.0 KS would see a rewrite of core rules and re-balancing of the TFK stuff which was not at all an a improvement.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 22:50:39


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Actually, it's the 40k 6E/7E of chibi games. SDE:FK changes several core gameplay concepts, rebalances things for little obvious reason, and adds a lot of new stuff stuff that simply wasn't there before (Explore, Creeps, etc.).

If SDE:FK were like AOS, it would have been radically simplified, and that is not even close to the case. Definitely more of a 40k 4E/5E to 6E/7E transition.

As you've been looking at the fan-fixes to FK, what are you liking best?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/15 23:50:18


Post by: nkelsch


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Actually, it's the 40k 6E/7E of chibi games. SDE:FK changes several core gameplay concepts, rebalances things for little obvious reason, and adds a lot of new stuff stuff that simply wasn't there before (Explore, Creeps, etc.).

If SDE:FK were like AOS, it would have been radically simplified, and that is not even close to the case. Definitely more of a 40k 4E/5E to 6E/7E transition.

As you've been looking at the fan-fixes to FK, what are you liking best?


Right now, of the ones which I have tried or read, I am interested in the stuff which keeps the pressure on. The Lootometer thread has a lot of good feedback but no silver bullet... Which I think shows some of the problems with the rules being fixed. We have communities of people who have played hundreds of different games and have deep understanding of balance and such, everyone can identify the problems but can't identify the solutions.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 00:09:01


Post by: JohnHwangDD


OK, yeah, that thread started nicely and got kinda wierd...

The basic idea of having a clock to keep pressure is important, but SDE really changed the whole balance thing around. I kind of like the Retro version best, being a 1E purist and all. Which really means that I'm just too stuck in my ways to change.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 11:19:26


Post by: Binabik15


I'm not gettuig a whole new base SDE before I've painted the first and FK. Already 2 minis down! Okay, those turned out showcase level quality, but I can't get myself to leave it at "good enough".

See you in MANY years, Soda Pop

Okay, I'm lying, I almost late pledged for NAS just because minis, but their shipping is crazy compared to other KS companies AND they wanted more than for FK with all warbands and tiles. (I would've still bought it if my love for painting had come back then and not last week. Damn, no Hard Gay and fox ninjas for me :/)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 11:58:35


Post by: Sarouan


 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The basic idea of having a clock to keep pressure is important, but SDE really changed the whole balance thing around. I kind of like the Retro version best, being a 1E purist and all. Which really means that I'm just too stuck in my ways to change.


You're not stuck at all. If the 1E rules are in your liking, then they are the best for you. That's the same for all games; as long as all the players around the table agree on the same rules, it's always fine.

Nkelsch has his personnal view on the subject. It doesn't mean he is right.

After all, trying to say AQ and SDE target the same kind of players is just like saying Infinity and W40k are in competition because they both are wargames with Sci-fi miniatures.

It's just too simple. And besides, it's not true since there are people buying both SDE and AQ to play. I'm one of them, I can tell I don't play the same thing.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 12:45:13


Post by: CalgarsPimpHand


So put this into perspective for me. I heard a lot of good things about SDE when it came out, and it sounds like there's a consensus that 1E is the tightest version of the rules. I also hear there's a lot of errata and so forth that needed fixing, presumably for 1E.

That sounds like what I want, the first edition of the game, vanilla rules and figures, no expansions, with any necessary fixes included. Is that available in this KS? What exactly is being sold here, rules-wise?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 12:48:07


Post by: cincydooley


 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:


That sounds like what I want, the first edition of the game, vanilla rules and figures, no expansions, with any necessary fixes included. Is that available in this KS? What exactly is being sold here, rules-wise?


1E of the game doesn't appear to be getting updates with any of the new content. It's all being mapped to 2E, with new cards for everything in a 2E focus included.

To get 1E, you're probably best trying to find a copy at retail now, because with this KS it looks like the 1E rules will be officially sunset.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 12:49:50


Post by: CalgarsPimpHand


What I mean to say is, if I bought the 2E box in this kickstarter, would I be getting the tight, balanced gameplay of 1E, or is it somehow ruined by including rules from TFK, even if I'm not using that expansion? (I guess I have no concept of how much the rules may have changed between the first box and TFK)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 15:47:43


Post by: nkelsch


 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
What I mean to say is, if I bought the 2E box in this kickstarter, would I be getting the tight, balanced gameplay of 1E, or is it somehow ruined by including rules from TFK, even if I'm not using that expansion? (I guess I have no concept of how much the rules may have changed between the first box and TFK)


Here is the Timeline:

CORE SDE BOX was 1.0: It had 8 Heroes, 5 spawns worth of minions and a Boss
EXPANSION ROXOR was an add on for 1.0: It had 3 Heroes, 3 Spawns worth of minions, a Mini boss and a Boss.
EXPANSION VON DRAKK was an add on for 1.0: It had 3 Heroes, 3 Spawns worth of minions, a Mini boss and a Boss.

Then the KS happened, TFK basically became the 2.0 core.
CORE TFK BOX was 2.0: It had 5 Heroes, 4 Spawns worth of minions, miniboss and boss.
They released Cards for all the previous content to work with TFK.

If you want to play OLD SDE, you are basically limited to the old expansions. If you want to play 2.0, then you can use all the new content and any of the old content if you have the 2.0 cards.

I suspect this KS is to basically re-launch the 3 previous sets as 2.0 retail products so 100% of their current content is available at retail as well add expanded gameplay. I do think the re-tooling of the sculpts is probably warranted as the core box is like comparing 2nd edition orks to 3rd edition orks. They have simply changed and the art is different in style and scale. I also think the goal is you can buy the new CORE and have a fully self-contained product. Doesn't replace TFK, but parallels it.

Considering they already have too many over-complicated heroes at the moment, and Heroes in SDE have much more unique rules which impact gameplay compared to other games where a HERO is a skin and not much else, I think it is important to them for them to re-tool the existing heroes both in rules and figure.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 16:00:38


Post by: Bioptic


No, you would be getting an errata'd version of the TFK rules! Which Sodapop considers to be improved and streamlined over the 1E rules, other opinions are available.

The most significant criticism I heard about the new rules was of the Arcade mode, a brand new and totally optional PVE mode that wasn't even in 1E.

To be clear, TFK and this new box are *both* "Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Edition - Base Box". They both contain everything needed to play, and essentially the same rules. They just have different heroes, enemies, and themes.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 17:41:42


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
if I bought the 2E box in this kickstarter, would I be getting the tight, balanced gameplay of 1E,

or is it somehow ruined by including rules from TFK, even if I'm not using that expansion?


No, not out of the box. You are getting a revised version of the TFK Classic rules, rather than the Original 1E rules. However, it's not clear how SPM revised the TFK Classic rules, whether it is just errata and typos, or if it's going back to the Original 1E rules a la Retro.

TFK Classic significantly changes the gameplay. While TFK simplified some aspects of the game (e.g. status effects) and removed the easily-forgotten Lootimeter track to be more of a "stateless" game, they also added quite a few more things like pre-spawning, extra activations, Creeps & Explore, Pets, basic actions, etc. That's why I said that it's like 40k 6E/7E (from a GW POV). Many people (self included) think that SPM got carried away with making SDE too much of everything for everyone, and that it now takes too long.

Personally, I am "wait and see" on the new rules. If they are more akin to Original rules, I would be willing to pay for a printed copy. Or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:
I suspect this KS is to basically re-launch the 3 previous sets as 2.0 retail products so 100% of their current content is available at retail as well add expanded gameplay.

I do think the re-tooling of the sculpts is probably warranted as the core box is like comparing 2nd edition orks to 3rd edition orks. They have simply changed and the art is different in style and scale.

I also think the goal is you can buy the new CORE and have a fully self-contained product. Doesn't replace TFK, but parallels it.

Considering they already have too many over-complicated heroes at the moment, and Heroes in SDE have much more unique rules which impact gameplay compared to other games where a HERO is a skin and not much else, I think it is important to them for them to re-tool the existing heroes both in rules and figure.


I don't think SPM is going to relaunch Caverns of Roxor (CoR) and Von Drak Manor (VDM) - they're already relaunching the one of them, and re-released the single spawn from VDM for the TFK KS. The only real outlier is the core box, which is coming in this KS.

The retool is probably more for assembly than anything else, as it was originally sold as a "some assembly required", which went over like a lead balloon with the boardgame crowd. SPM leanred that lesson in spades, which is why the CoR and VDM boxes are all pre-assembled, along with everything in TFK. Size and scale are fine, aside from the Roxor heroes beng inherently undersized (Dwarf, Gnome & Princess) due to bad party design.

I agree SDE 2.0 is envisioned as parallel to TFK, but I hope that they actually skinny it up as a CoR/VDM level box + tiles (for those who already have original) + extra Heroes. I don't want to, and won't buy SDE 2.0 just for the tiles, when I already own the original box.

SPM already redid the rules for all of the original content as part of TFK, and they sell them as such in the update pack. I get that they are doing pallet swaps / recolors for SDE 2.0, which is fine, but goes counter to the notion of this being an intro set.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/16 23:10:29


Post by: Dentry


My take away from the announcement is that the original heroes new sculpts will be not just pre-assembled / single-piece models but that they'd be slightly re-imagined or upgraded (read: powered up) hero models keeping in line with the new Legends progression system.

Of course, I'm probably wrong. Wishful thinking? Maybe.

Also agree that vanilla, that is the original SDE with errata was a fun game. It's what I played most. Haven't yet played TFK. In fact, I need to inventory it and make sure there aren't any missing or damaged pieces.

On Roxor and Von Drakk. I want another production run. Von Drakk is high on my priority list of games to purchase - Halloweens coming up fast.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 02:16:43


Post by: Schmapdi


Aren't Von Drakk/Roxxor already upgraded and released?

Saw this on MM

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/43090/s/spm210304/

It's sold out - but they clearly already have the new box style with the preview window and whatnot.

And I just figured the new sculpts would just be new sculpts of the original heroes (not necessarily "more powerful") possible even gender swaps?

Really, the heroes and kobolds and whatnot hold up well. (hence me not wanting to repaint them) it'd be nice to see a bigger, more boss-like Starfire. But I don't really have other complaints about the sculpts.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 03:13:20


Post by: Dentry


Don't know that Caverns of Roxor ever got a repack. I know Von Drakk has but I've never seen Roxor in the new style box.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 16:24:15


Post by: Binabik15


IMO the old sculpts don't hold up well. Look at the sling kobolds, for example, lots of details in their bandages and wrappings melt together or are lost. Same with the fine details on the heroes, especially the ladies.

The dragon welps don't suffer from this and are fantastic and if Soda Pop messes them up they'll be DEAD to me! Not really, of course, but I like the little guys/gals. With those and piggies and mushroom men I have no need for more kobolds, anyway.

A "readily available in Germany and not ridiculous prices" VDM would be nice, rhough.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 17:19:20


Post by: JohnHwangDD


New press release is up!

Spoiler:
Soda Pop Miniatures recently made the exciting announcement for an all new Super Dungeon® Kickstarter. As we run up to the Kickstarter we’d like to explore some of the items that will be debuting in the base pledge levels, as well as look forward to what we’re planning to bring to Super Dungeon® with each product, and the Kickstarter in general.

One of the items that inspired the most discussion from our announcement was Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition. This made it a natural fit for our first article. What is 2nd Edition, what makes it exciting, and, of course, will there be a pledge without it?

To answer the last question first—yes. The Super Dungeon® Legends Kickstarter will feature pledges for both new players and veterans, with a pledge level including Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition and an alternate pledge level without it. That said, lets discuss what 2nd Edition brings to Super Dungeon®.

Forgotten King, like the original Super Dungeon® Explore, is a massive box set! Filled with two modes of gameplay, fiction, tons of models, Forgotten King is a premium board game at a premium price. With 2nd Edition we want to introduce a whole new group of fans to Super Dungeon® Explore at an affordable price, while still maintaining a premium experience.

Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition is designed around smaller, faster games with three spawning points, a single mini-boss, and a fearsome Dungeon Boss. A wide variety of Heroes and multiple monster profiles help keep the game fresh and exciting. 2nd Edition introduces new players to Super Dungeon® and is wallet friendly, while still providing the beautiful models, art, and components that fans of Soda Pop Miniatures have come to expect. When it’s time for new challenges and bigger games, players can pick-and-choose from the expansive line of Super Dungeon® Heroes, Warbands, and Level boxes to enhance their experience.

For veterans of Super Dungeon®, 2nd Edition is more than just an updated rulebook that features the errata and clarifications from the last year-plus of play. New Dragonback Peak themed dungeon tiles make their debut and expand your existing collection of dungeon tiles. Both the Loot Deck and Treasure Deck feature completely new items, and can be added directly to your existing base decks to increase the variety of gear Heroes can acquire. Likewise, a new Explore Deck, featuring more beneficial exploration rewards, encourages Heroes to search every nook and cranny of the dungeon. Just like the loot and treasure deck, the Explore Deck can be used on its own or added to the Forgotten King deck to provide a wide array of exploration possibilities.
super-dungeon-claw-tribe-barbarian-2-sculpt

Of course, it’s not Super Dungeon® Explore without a stunning array of models, and we’ve taken the opportunity to bring our only unassembled models to dynamic, new life. 2nd Edition features eight Heroes, Angry Bear, Starfire the Ruby Dragon, Rex the Kobold Ogre, drakes and kobolds. New players can discover these models for the first time, assembled and ready to play. Veterans can use the models with their existing collection to represent alternate profiles or, in games of Legends, as advanced monsters and epic evolutions of Heroes as they advance in class.

The Super Dungeon® Legends Kickstarter is poised to provide a huge amount of exciting new content for veterans and new players alike. Super Dungeon® Explore: 2nd Edition provides an excellent entry point for new players, while remaining an enticing option for veteran players looking to expand their collection

http://ninjadivision.com/exploring-kickstarter-part-one/

2 pledge levels
- veteran pledge without SDE 2.0
- newbie pledge with SDE 2.0

SDE 2.0 content
8 Heroes & Bear
1 Dungeon Boss (Starfire)
1 mini-boss (Rex)
1 single spawn point set
1 paired spawn point set
NEW tiles, NEW loot & treasures, NEW explore deck
+ alternate monster profiles
wallet-friendly starter, with deliberately fewer monsters (but more heroes) than FK - all new sculpts

Rulebook is errata and clarifications, but it's not "fixing" the TFK gameplay issues.

I wonder if there will be a SDE 2.0 upgrade pack that just includes those things not in original or TFK. That would be worth some money.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 17:22:43


Post by: DaveC


The new Claw Tribe Barbarian is in that news release



Even though I have 1st edition I'll probably pick up the newer version as well.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 17:32:23


Post by: nkelsch


 DaveC wrote:
The new Claw Tribe Barbarian is in that news release



Even though I have 1st edition I'll probably pick up the newer version as well.


VonDrakk witches make me go 'oof' at that sculpt design. We all know how it will end up post-warping.

I hope all the new sculpts are not pointleslly cinematic versions of the G1.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/17 22:59:18


Post by: Schmapdi


Hmm - I like that there is only one set of kobolds and one Rex. That eases my concerns about tons of minis a little.

People need to start pushing Soda Pop to include fixed cards of all the TFK cards that had mistakes on them (which was sadly quite a lot). That would make a lot of people happy, and fit in the theme of updating the rulebook (which had relatively few errata comparatively).

Not super digging that Barbarian, and was really hoping for gender-swaps of the original heroes. :/



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 00:00:14


Post by: nkelsch


Schmapdi wrote:

Not super digging that Barbarian, and was really hoping for gender-swaps of the original heroes. :/



Holy S. That would have been an amazing idea.

One if the things which I think is hurting them right now is they are almost to a point of too many heroes. Unlike other games where heroes are a minor rule change and basically a SKIN, the heroes are very complex and every new hero shifts the META. And there are simply too many heroes with a wide range of balance issues.

Alternate Gender sculpts would have helped keep to the current classes but give a good reason for people to have double.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 01:34:19


Post by: Schmapdi


It's something that a lot of SDE fans have been clamoring for for a long time now. I'm really surprised they didn't go that route - it seems like a no-brainer.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 03:23:00


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Stretch goals or add ons, my friends... that's where the alt genders will be.

But yeah, gender swaps of the main classes seems like such an easy way to get people to buy in again.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 04:24:44


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Schmapdi wrote:
People need to start pushing Soda Pop to include fixed cards of all the TFK cards that had mistakes on them (which was sadly quite a lot).

Not super digging that Barbarian, and was really hoping for gender-swaps of the original heroes. :/


Yeah, printed errata and rulebooks for EVERYONE would be a nice draw.

Gender swaps would have been pretty cool for variety, too bad SPM clearly isn't doing that.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 06:56:54


Post by: Sarouan


Looks like the idea before resculpts is mainly to "update" them to the new size of TFK. Second edition miniatures, thus. They do that in other games as well.

As long as we can take separate things in the Kickstarter, I don't see the reason to be negative. Especially now, when we don't know everything and Soda Pop is asking our feedback on the official forum.

Yeah, gender swaps would have been a nice idea.

I don't really think the problem in SDE is that there are too many heroes. It's one of its strength that you can take a lot of things to make your party/band of monsters. Removing that would be losing a lot of its charm, IMHO.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 08:27:33


Post by: JonWebb


 JohnHwangDD wrote:


TFK Classic significantly changes the gameplay. While TFK simplified some aspects of the game (e.g. status effects) and removed the easily-forgotten Lootimeter track to be more of a "stateless" game, they also added quite a few more things like pre-spawning, extra activations, Creeps & Explore, Pets, basic actions, etc. That's why I said that it's like 40k 6E/7E (from a GW POV). Many people (self included) think that SPM got carried away with making SDE too much of everything for everyone, and that it now takes too long.

Personally, I am "wait and see" on the new rules. If they are more akin to Original rules, I would be willing to pay for a printed copy. Or two.


Hey John, I've been on a few Kickstarters with you now, and feel like you often have a lot of good things to say

Its really interesting reading your thoughts on First vs second ed. I've got both as well, played more of second ed, but did play first a few times too. I totally agree the second ed game seems to take a lot longer than it should .Played a small thre hero game with my GF not so long ago, expecting a few hours, and it ended up being a two day, seven hour marathon, and neither of us are gaming newcomers...(22 years gaming for me now...)

However, I do like 2nd Ed more. I think the spawning feels a lot fairer (although being able to heal the spawn points seems a little cheeky) and we often felt with 1st Ed, the Heros would never be able to leave their starting square, instead getting bogged down over and over until the boss spawned, and usually wiped the floor with them. Did you find the same? Maybe it was our hero choices, my GF has a thing for hitting stuff with axes, so never really goes further than the Barbarian. She hates Elves too, so that limits her AOE options.

No doubt I will be backing this one to the hilt, even though I really don't need more of the first edition stuff. Still, more sculpts I will likely never paint is always fun right?

As a survivor of the Relic Knights KS (that was a real shame, I had such hopes for the game, but the PVC minis never matched my expectaitons. I hate PVC with a passion... its tolerable for board games and anime figures, but beyond that it never should have been introduced to wargaming quality pieces... and the continued rush to it by various companies is doing my head in... guess I'm still an old school lead head), I was pertty impressed with the SDE version. Felt like they learned a lot of lessons, so this one will likely be run pretty much the same. I dodged the Ninja All Stars on as I'm not really a ninja fan. It did suck that the game shipped with quite a lot of errors and typos though :(

I'd love a slightly stripped down fast verison of SDE. Keep the core mechanics as they work fine, but remove some of the complexity. A coupe of hours mindless goblin bashing is all you want sometimes right?

Would be interested to see some of the fan tweaks. Are they on the SPM forums? Or BGG? Links would be great for the ones you think improve the game.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/18 19:17:11


Post by: JohnHwangDD


JonWebb wrote:
Hey John, I've been on a few Kickstarters with you now, and feel like you often have a lot of good things to say

Its really interesting reading your thoughts on First vs second ed. I've got both as well, played more of second ed, but did play first a few times too.

No doubt I will be backing this one to the hilt, even though I really don't need more of the first edition stuff. Still, more sculpts I will likely never paint is always fun right?

As a survivor of the Relic Knights KS (that was a real shame, I had such hopes for the game, but the PVC minis never matched my expectaitons. I dodged the Ninja All Stars on as I'm not really a ninja fan. It did suck that the game shipped with quite a lot of errors and typos though :(

I'd love a slightly stripped down fast verison of SDE.

Would be interested to see some of the fan tweaks. Are they on the SPM forums? Or BGG?


Thank you, I try. When I'm not snarking up a storm...

I have not played nearly as much 2E as 1E (but I did play a LOT of 1E). I agree that 2 days is way too long for a 3-Hero 2E game. I would also note that getting wiped on the first tile means your 1E strategy wasn't quite right.

Our 1E experience, also playing heads up like you and your GF, was like this:
- Ohh... the guys making the awesome Relic Knights sculpts are doing a game with lots of minis, let's preorder.
- Holy cow, this game is hard! Consul is scoring TPKs every single time - is the game supposed to be unwinnable?
- Oh, BGG shows we've been making bad parties with lousy Hero synergy and bad strategy. OTOH, BGG also shows some Consuls suck. Played right, Heroes finally WIN!
- Ohh... they're doing a 2nd edition! We're all in!
- Oh, wow, that's a lot of stuff. Oh, wow, the game is way slower now. And Arcade is just weird.
We found SDE 1E to be a great tactical game, once we figured out how to play it. BGG helped us a lot here.

In the end, I would prefer to run a 3-Hero party consisting of:
- Fire Mage (Will, AOE and Fire!),
- Barbarian (Str&Arm, Attacks and self-heal), and
- Elf (Dex, Range).
This party consistently AOEs everything on the 2nd Spawn Point and wipes the first Spawn Point (don't worry about the monsters - you can clean them up later) ... on the first turn. The Barbarian just shreds things while the Mage & Elf provide fire support & cover fire. No Loot gets wasted. Down a spawn point, and the 2nd naked and damaged, the Consul is in a tough spot. It's super effective.

As I've said above, I'm not particularly interested in replacing stuff I already own, so I'm more focused on new content. Really, it's going to depend on pledge levels. If the cost of SDE v2.0 is only marginally more than getting the tiles, I might bite if only to part it out.

We backed RK, struggled with the PVC, sold off the bulk of it at a small profit, and kept a few models for SDE & the shelf. They're not bad, but we kind of want a different game engine, perhaps something more akin to SDE Arena. While we like many of the NAS models, and could have gotten a couple sets for the minis, we ended up not backing NAS due to rules issues and wanting an official SDE version when the Wandering Mountains expansion finally releases.

Being more of a MINIs boardgamer than a minis BOARDgamer, I'm not really much on BGG, sorry. On the SPM forum, there are a TON of suggested house rules, and some definitely improve the game, but not all have been well-tested for balance / play. There are a couple fan "complete" versions on the SPM forum "Lootimeter" and "Retro". Lootimeter has the bulk of the posts, but is more of an Arcade variant. Retro tries to be more like the Original, but hasn't had as much attention. Of the two, I prefer Retro, although it doesn't have a particularly satisfying answer for Explore & Creeps.

Hope this helps,


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/21 17:53:48


Post by: JohnHwangDD


And new update is up, talking about dun, dun, dun! The Midnight Tower!

Spoiler:
Soda Pop Miniatures has explored several of the realms of Super Dungeon, beginning with the Dragonback Peaks, then Glauerdoom Moor, and last year the Fae Wood. With Legends we knew we wanted to introduce another realm to players, and none seemed so fitting as the very center of the Dark Consul’s power—The Midnight Tower.

The Midnight Tower stands within the heart of the Nether Rifts, the mystical chasm which descends into the Dark Realm. From this portal, the Dark Consul summoned forth hosts of monsters to ravage Crystalia. Even now, with the Dark Consul banished, the Nether Rifts and Midnight Tower are the origin of much of Crystalia’s woe.

The new inhabitants of The Midnight Tower are the nether elves, lead by The Midnight Queen. Descendents of the Deeproot Elves who were swallowed by the creation of the Nether Rifts, their hearts have turned wicked and cruel. In order to survive, even flourish, within the Dark Realm the Nether Elves turned to martial might. Their society has been refashioned into a warrior cult, where only those who accept their strict codes of martial discipline and “honor” are allowed to exist. They will sweep any who refuse to submit to their new world order.

In your games of Super Dungeon, the nether elves are a cohesive fighting force which use stealth to augment their attacks and force Heroes to close in to engage. All nether elves possess the signature ability Dread, which augments their offensive capabilities when they are benefitting from Stealth. Unsurprisingly, several key nether elf models, including their spawning point, possess the ability to generate auras of Stealth. The Midnight Tower includes two spawning points of nether elves, each consisting of a Tower Stalker which can teleport into other models’ shadows and deliver debilitating status effects, Tower Arbalists whose bolts chill the very soul, and Tower Blackblades whose martial discipline ensures their fellow Nether Elves are always in the proper position.

Some elves developed the gift to communicate with the demonic spiders which lurked in the Dark Realm. These Spider Speakers spawn swarms of poisonous spiders into battle alongside the nether elves. Key among the abilities of the spiders is the capability to weave webs which create difficult terrain hazards, allowing the Consul to control the dungeon in an all new and dynamic way. The sneaky Shadow Spinners can even weave webs of pure shadow, granting stealth and perfectly synergizing with their nether elf allies.

Should the Heroes make it through these devilish minions they must face The Midnight Queen. A cunning illusionist and powerful mage, The Midnight Queen is a powerful foe in her own right. Yet, Heroes never face The Midnight Queen alone, for she is protected by a magical guardian, Daemonus, who attacks any who come near and defends her with its life.

{super-dungeon-cat-burglar-sculpt}

Of course no Level Box is complete without three mighty Heroes. The Midnight Tower introduces the Hearthsworn Tincan, Riftling Warrior, and Cat Burglar. The Tincan is melee fighter focusing on crowd control. Able to gain the ability Grabby, the Tincan can pull foes in close and prevent them from moving away. Whereas the Tincan focuses on defense and board control, the Riftling Warrior is all about damage. With a powerful charge action which grants extra movement after a Lance action, and the ability to generate blue dice (and thus Hearts) on a never before seen scale, the Riftling Warrior punishes any who stand in his way. The Cat Burglar specializes in fast movement and treasure acquisition. Be careful though, when she gets cornered she can throw a flurry of daggers which poison anyone they strike!

The Midnight Tower is only the beginning of our journey in the Nether Rifts. It provides a first glimpse at the true might of the Dark Consul, and establishes a rich source of monsters for your games of Super Dungeon Explore and a wonderful realm of adventure and storytelling for your games of Legends. With your help we plan to reveal many additional horrors spawned from the Dark Realms.

http://ninjadivision.com/exploring-kickstarter-the-midnight-tower/

This is the bit that I'm most excited about, what with it being models-focused with evil Elfs and so on.

Anyhoo...

This expands into a new area, the Nether Rifts, filled with "wicked and cruel" "warior cult" Nether Elves, so they're cute & cuddly Dark Eldars minus the Grimdark. Stealth-based with debuffs for synergy combo attacks. And Spiders. And if you get past that, it's the Midnight Queen boss and her Daemnous miniboss guard.

Plus, new heroes, including a catgirl.

So far, so good. I am probably going to back on the strength of the Midnight Tower.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/21 20:51:46


Post by: JonWebb


Sounds cool. The SDE underdark

I picked up the anti hero bundle in the sale as, even with the shipping (and risk of import) getting hold of SDE stuff over here is enough of a pain to make me interested.

No doubt I will go all in here to.

I missed a few bits (tile sets and the kobold expansion) from the last ks, wonder if they will add them as extras for pledging.

Probably not, but you never know.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/24 19:19:39


Post by: DaveC


2 New Warbands for the KS - the Orcs are coming



The Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter is aimed at both new players and veterans alike. Our Explorer Pledge introduces Super Dungeon Explore: 2nd Edition along with The Midnight Tower and Super Dungeon Legends. For veterans who don’t want to pick up 2nd Edition, we have the Dark Consul Pledge which swaps out 2nd Edition for two brand new warbands—Frostbyte Ravagers and Crown Guard.



For a long time we avoided bringing the classic fantasy race of orcs to Super Dungeon. While we’ve alway loved the historical place orcs have in fantasy, we really wanted to first establish Crystalia without them, to prevent them from becoming the “default” monster race for the game. But we always knew that we would want to visit this brutish race eventually, and Legends presents a fine opportunity.

Orcs are shock troops of the Dark Consul; hardy, brutish, and only crudely intelligent. They’re also a mystery. The orcs in the Dark Realm have a culture that’s way too sophisticated for how simple they are. They believe their gods reward valorous and brave deeds and that these gods selected the hereditary chieftains to lead the various tribes to glory in battle. The chiefs pledge service to various demon lords, whom they say are the gods’ children, but none of their skalds’ songs connect the demons and the gods. The orcs living in the Frostbyte Reach are smarter, less aggressive (though they’re still really aggressive), but keep most of the culture. They claim that their race was lured to the Dark Realm by the demons, who clouded their minds, changed their legends, and corrupted their beliefs to enslave the orcs. No one knows the truth, of course, but stranger things have happened.

The Frostbyte Ravager Warband includes two spawning points of brutal, offense oriented orcs, the berserker Rage Fiend mini-boss who drives the orcs into a further frenzy of violence, and the human Lightning Mage whose crackling blasts of electricity arc from foe to foe.



The Crown Guard warband is unique among other “monsters” that we have released in that it is ostensibly a good warband. The Legends presents a vast number of opportunities for adventure, and there are few adventuring parties in any story which have not had an unfortunate run-in with the local authorities. The Crown Guard Warband presents many gaming opportunities, beyond a simple altercation with authority. They can represent corrupted humans who have joined the cause of the Dark Consul. Or, in a more sinister turn, they can be the adversaries of a party of Dark Heroes rampaging their way through Crystalia upon a quest for power.

The Crown Guard warband includes two spawning points of disciplined defenders of order, a mighty mounted Royal Knight mini-boss who charges across the dungeon, and a Crook-Eye Tracker orc Hero who marks his target before bringing them down with a deadly crossbow bolt.

Of course, we recognize that there are many true completionists out there who will want both the warbands and 2nd Edition. So we will have a third, Legendary pledge, to sate your ravenous chibi hunger!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/24 19:42:36


Post by: nkelsch


Looks like warbands for arena. MOBA-style fighting.

I feel like MOBA versus is a good game mode which warrants further development.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/24 21:54:01


Post by: Schmapdi


I like that lightning mage


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/24 22:16:41


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I agree that the warbands seem better for a themed SDE : Arena match than regular 1vM Consul play.

SDE : Arena got a ton of stuff with FK, but the rules are still for 1.0. I might revisit them when I'm not so sidetracked.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/25 01:48:13


Post by: Schmapdi


nkelsch wrote:
Looks like warbands for arena. MOBA-style fighting.

I feel like MOBA versus is a good game mode which warrants further development.


The MOBA style of Rum & Bones was pretty intriguing to me - I just didn't care for the minis that much. A SDE moba mode would be pretty sweet.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/25 02:00:31


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Schmapdi wrote:
A SDE moba mode would be pretty sweet.


That's SDE : Arena

http://sodapopminiatures.com/media/downloads/super-dungeon-explore-arena.pdf

It needs to be updated for 2.0, and cleaned up for tournament play, but it's still playable.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/27 08:11:05


Post by: Dentry


Do we know if the Fall Releases (Beatrix and Jack Scarecrow) factor into the KS in any way?

At this point I'm operating under the assumption that they wont be making an appearance during their campaign but I'm unsure how to budget for SDE: Legends as part of me keeps thinking we might see Caverns of Roxor 2.0 and other revamps, maybe a collector bundle including fall releases, as potential stretch goals or added pledge levels / add-ons.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/27 12:14:27


Post by: nkelsch


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Schmapdi wrote:
A SDE moba mode would be pretty sweet.


That's SDE : Arena

http://sodapopminiatures.com/media/downloads/super-dungeon-explore-arena.pdf

It needs to be updated for 2.0, and cleaned up for tournament play, but it's still playable.


Well, less so with the massive expansion of the meta and many of the 2.0 changes. (Turtles especially)

Arena expects balance, and TFK abandoned balance for narrative beer and pretzels fun.

The only way the MOBA would work would be with symmetrical, balanced minion groups where the imbalance is with heroes. Having humans VS orcs in a very adversarial design would allow them to balance 2 minion groups for core arena re-vamp.

Without a concentrated attempt to balance any or all types of gameplay, you simply get things which can't be played competitively which alienates most board gamers.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/28 19:51:11


Post by: DaveC


Kickstarter is in October



Super Dungeon Explore is a combat board game inspired by classic hack-and-slash video games. But that is only the beginning of the inspirations behind Super Dungeon. It is also built upon a deep love for classic Japanese roleplaying games (JRPGs), adventure games, and traditional pencil-and-paper tabletop games. Legends draws its inspiration from these well loved genres, to allow players to craft their own stories in the world of Crystalia.

Super Dungeon Legends is a campaign and roleplaying expansion for Super Dungeon Explore. In Legends, Heroes brave a series of adventures as part of an overall narrative campaign. Between adventures Heroes will learn from their previous experiences, gain new skills, increase attributes, and even craft powerful equipment of their own.

To play Legends you must have a copy of Super Dungeon Explore, either The Forgotten King box set, or the 2nd Edition box set available in the upcoming Kickstarter. Legends may be played using either Classic Mode or Arcade mode. Using Classic Mode allows players to take full advantage of Legends’ narrative and roleplaying structure. In Arcade Mode, players utilize premade adventures such as those included in Legends’ Consul’s Grimoire and unlocked digital adventures from the campaign.

The core of Legends is its three rulebooks: Hero Handbook, Consul’s Grimoire, and the Explorer’s Grimoire

The Hero Handbook is the complete guide for advancing your Heroes between adventures. It teaches you how to unlock new skills and abilities, go shopping, craft new items, and provides roleplaying tips to make a unique party of Heroes all your own! The Hero Handbook also includes a guild creation guide, which allows players to choose from multiple Heroes depending on the adventure.

The Consul’s Grimoire teaches players how to create unique adventures, enhance monsters, and craft a story all your own in the world of Crystalia! Central to the Consul’s Grimoire is two complete premade campaigns with multiple adventures and unique fiction designed to get you playing right away.

Begin your exploration of the Super Dungeon universe with the Explorer’s Guide! This tome details the history, geography, monsters, and key locations of every realm in Crystalia; as well as providing detailed information on the world’s history, heroic races, religions, and organizations. If you enjoyed Forgotten King’s Explorer’s Handbook, this expanded guide is going to be a true treat.

We’ll reveal more information on this exciting new game mode as we march towards the Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter coming in October!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/28 21:09:26


Post by: Dentry


Yeah. Definitely need to pick up the Legends' books. As someone that overwhelmingly plays Consul, the Grimoire is particularly of interest.

October's in a few days. We'll probably see this during the first half of the month, I'm guessing. This weekend at the earliest.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/09/28 21:13:28


Post by: JohnHwangDD


At this point, SPM have shared info on all of the core options for the KS, so they can wrap it up on Thursday and launch early Oct.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 00:11:57


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Or, they could give more information on Legends...
Adventures in Legends

Published by deke, on October 1, 2015.

Adventures are the heart and soul of Legends. An adventure can be a single normal game of Super Dungeon Explore, played straight out of the box. An adventure can also be a premade fixed encounter designed by Soda Pop Miniatures, or a homemade narrative experience designed by your Consul. (Adventures can also be linked to form a campaign, but that’s another article!)
super-dungeon-angry-bear-2-art-preview

A typical adventure takes 2 – 4 hours to complete, so it is always best to choose a time when players can sit down and enjoy an evening playing Super Dungeon. Plenty of delicious snacks and tasty fizzy beverages are highly recommended!

Each adventure consists of the following components: Story, Objective, Monsters, Setup, Special Rules, Victory, and Rewards

Some adventures may consist of multiple scenes. A scene is a new and distinct phase of the adventure. For instance, having recovered the Cursed Gem of Alara from the kobold Inferno Cult in the first scene, the party must now navigate the kinoko infested undercity, in order to meet their fence to trade for rare chalcedony crystals the Sanctioned Witch needs for her next potion.

The time between adventures is called downtime. During downtime, Heroes may use loot, treasure, crystals, and other rewards they gained during the adventure to customize their Heroes to fit their own particular play-style and vision for their character. Let’s look at some of the things that occur during downtime.

Award Crystals: Heroes earn amethyst crystals for defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, or roleplaying during an adventure. Additionally, the Consul earns Crystals which can be used to purchase new schemes and advance monsters.

Disenchant: In Legends the party keeps all cards they draw during an adventure in their backpack. All loot and treasure cards the Heroes acquired during the adventure must be disenchanted into their component crafting crystals. This includes both cards that were equipped and cards that remained in the backpack. Loot cards are worth one crystal of the same color as the loot. Treasure cards are worth three crystals of the same color as the treasure.

Now that you have all these crystals what do you do with them!?

Crafting: The party may spend crystals to visit the mighty crafter and enchanter, Gregorius Crystalpot the XXIV. Gregorius will take your hard-earned crystals and present you with a wonderful new item. Unfortunately, unless you’re skilled at crafting yourself, you’re never quite sure what you’ll get!

Hero Training: Heroes may spend crystals to train, allowing them to learn new skills, increase their attributes and gain other advancements.

Shopping: Crystalia has an entire industry of shopkeepers who cater to adventuring Heroes, maintaining a rotating stock of unique items. Conversely, there is also a shady network of villains, monsters and other assorted evildoers who cater to the needs of the Dark Consul’s minions. Heroes and the Consul may visit shops to purchase consumable goods, potions, and other one-use items for the next adventure.

Scheme: The Consul may spend crystals to purchase schemes. Schemes are one use cards that represent the various petty plots, dirty tricks, and machinations which monsters may use to defeat the Heroes.

Once the party has completed downtime, they’re ready for the next adventure! This is only a small taste of what Legends has to offer. We’ll continue the exploration as we march towards the launch of the Kickstarter in October!

http://ninjadivision.com/adventures-in-legends/

The details for "downtime" make Legends something of a Mordheim-type campaign game, in which a lot of stuff happens between battles, although the mandatory disenchant is a bit odd, as I doubt anything you can randomly obtain is inherently as good as a unique Treasure. At least, not after the initial dungeon run, but maybe after several iterations of stacking small bonuses might be enough.

All in all, this meets expectations for what Legends would do for Heroes. Presumably, the next thing is to shed some light on what the Consul does during downtime.

Mechanically, I wonder just how long SPM expects a SDE session to run, what with the extended V2 gameplay then an hour of Legends afterward?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 01:30:23


Post by: nkelsch


A typical adventure takes 2 – 4 hours to complete


2 – 4 hours to complete


2 – 4 hours


That dog won't hunt. There is a HUGE difference for gaming for 2-4 hours and playing a single game which takes 2-4 hours.

I can play multiple different games with multiple different people in 2-4 hours. In most boardgame groups, it is expected to play and swap games or people.

2-4 hours reeks of pen and paper RPG level complexity and detail. I will believe it when I see it. 2-4 hours of story and sch sometimes is tolerable... 2-4 hours where 75% of it is dealing with fiddly slow or complex rules is not.

Right now, this doesn't seem to appeal to boardgamers and is getting WORSE than what the communities seem to want, I can't see it seriously breaking into PnP RPGers and takes longer than the largest of the wargames.

Fail all around.

At least the minis are cool and will be great for other systems.

EDIT: And Mordheim was great... Because we could have like 3 different games going on and swap opponents. In 2-4 hours we could play at least 3 different games with 3 different opponents. That is the difference between playing games for 2-4 hours and playing a SINGLE game for 2-4 hours.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 01:44:39


Post by: Nostromodamus


2-4 hours is how long it currently takes me and the wife to play 1 game of co-op mode. I can't imagine what the actual runtime of this would be, with MORE details...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 02:03:10


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Man. That's way too long for me. Way too long.

I'm curious what the feedback for those lengths has been like on their official forums.

I'll keep watching this one.

Maybe since my family is pretty comfortable with Dwarf King's Hold, Dungeon Saga shouldn't be too hard to grasp. We may just have to play it with SDE figures is all, since Soda Pop doesn't seem to want to give us a quicker game.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 04:14:30


Post by: JohnHwangDD


IMO, if SDE were playable in 1.5-2.0 hours, and the downtime were another half hour, it'd be OK.

However, if we're looking at basically a 4+ hour commit to play SDE & Legends, that's kinda excessive.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 09:55:49


Post by: Sarouan


Well, if you look at it from a RPG point of view, time is kinda relative...

2-4 hours, depends also of dungeon size. If adventures in Legends are shorter, it should have an influence on play time.

I remember the previous edition of Descent, where the "campaign mode" was actually using smaller adventures. Same rules, but faster to play because there were less tiles and less monsters.

Wait and see, people. We don't have all information to judge.

Also, in Mordheim, downtime wasn't so time consuming. It was also something you could do later, since it usually concerns the update of your party/group/band.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 10:05:59


Post by: BrookM


It helps if every participant knows the rules and abilities, including the consul. Played a game at the store once, the consul took foreverrrrrr to get his gak done, re-reading unit cards five times before doing anything.

I mean, what's wrong with just spamming gak in this game?



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 10:40:49


Post by: Sarouan


That picture was before the Ember Mage used her wave attack, I guess?

And yeah, games are usually shorter when you don't need to look at the rules for everything.

I must say that when I play in Arcade Mode for a 3 tiles dungeon, it doesn't take me 4 hours to finish it.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 12:51:32


Post by: BigOscar


Would the 2-4 hours be for just one game, or for a campaign with a series of dungeons and downtime between?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/02 13:18:01


Post by: nkelsch


BigOscar wrote:
Would the 2-4 hours be for just one game, or for a campaign with a series of dungeons and downtime between?


Considering it is taking a lot of people 2.5-3 hours to play a single game with 3 tiles/heroes, and SPM claims that is exactly how long it should take, I can't envision a scenario where the legend rules would make that go faster to allow multiple maps/dungeons in that 2-4 hour.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/05 21:55:46


Post by: DaveC


Hmmm... the revamp of SDE seems to be the everyone is angry/shouting edition - hopefully Angry Bears sculpt is very like the artwork though






Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/05 23:09:55


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


First anime eyes,

next anime teeth


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/06 09:09:18


Post by: Binabik15


Bear has worked out, huh?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/08 18:28:26


Post by: JohnHwangDD


New Update!
Legends Class Advancement

Super Dungeon Explore currently has over 40 different Heroes! Once the Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter comes rolling around, there is going to be even more. One of the challenges we faced with Legends was: how do we advance Heroes? In most traditional RPGs a Hero’s advancement is two-fold: a path of advancement specific to the character type, plus advancement through a general pool of skills and abilities. Considering the large pool of Heroes which already exist, and many more on the way, it was quickly apparent that it was unrealistic to create unique cards representing every Hero, for every advancement, covering every possibility. That is, unless we wanted to severely restrict players’ ability to make their Heroes into unique creations all their own.

Fortunately, the affinity system already places both Heroes and monsters into groups of similar archetypes. Citrine Heroes are generally brawny: melee and strength-based. Sapphire Heroes are resilient: durable and armor-based. Ruby Heroes are magical: intelligent and willpower-based. Emerald Heroes are quick: nimble and dexterity-based. Affinity gave us our groupings so all we needed was a level progression system.

As we’ve mentioned in previous articles, one of the things that inspire Super Dungeon are classic Japanese video games. While many Japanese video games use traditional numbers to represent levels, we were far more attracted to many fighting and action games that proudly proclaimed a rank or class—C, B, A, or S— based on your incredible achievements. Why not apply that system to our own game? Thus, the Class system was born.

A Hero’s relative power level is gauged by six classes: C-Class, B-Class, A-Class, S-Class, X-Class, and XS-Class. The Consul uses the party’s class to help determine how powerful adventures need to be in order to remaining challenging. Premade adventures have a recommended Class level on them, so you can choose an adventure appropriate to your power level.

C-Class represents normal everyday people and creatures, whether they be human, horse, elf, emu, gnome, gnat, dwarf, dog, or something stranger. C-Class is reserved for nonplayer characters such as merchants, villagers, farmers or even basic combatants, such as town watch or basic 8-Bit monsters who are not as powerful as a Hero.
super-dungeon-ember-mage-b-class-art

B-Class represents powerful warriors, sages, and creatures that are a cut above their normal ken, but which are still a little green around the ears. Basic 16-Bit monsters are considered B-Class. Heroes always begin a campaign at B-Class, and are represented by only their initial game card.

A-Class represents Heroes and creatures that are skilled veterans. Basic Super monsters are considered A-Class.
super-dungeon-ember-mage-s-class-art

S-Class represents Heroes and creatures that are true masters of their craft. They have experiences that have elevated their capabilities to extraordinary levels.

X-Class represents Heroes and creatures that have reached the zenith of their skill and are living, breathing legends.

XS-Class represents those rare individuals who have transcended the bounds of mortal skill and knowledge. They are paragons of myth that shape the fate of Crystalia and have become demi-gods in their own right.

A Hero’s class and affinity determines what upgrade cards a Hero may possess. Heroes may only ever gain cards that are of equivalent or lower class. In order to advance through the classes a Hero must acquire crystals. Once a Hero possesses enough crystals, they are considered to have leveled up to the next class, and may begin to accrue items appropriate to their new class.

http://ninjadivision.com/legends-class-advancement/

This is good stuff, although I'm a bit surprised by having so many tiers of "classes" . I'd have tough 4 or 5 would have been enough. Oh, well, it's cute.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/08 22:19:51


Post by: nkelsch


Meh... I have no expectaation that they know how to make good rules, let alone 5 levels of good rules.

I am curious if they will attempt to make 40 heroes X 5 classes and have 'progression' models which are the new rage in model-based RPGs. It is neat when you can have a few models which are clearly the same character in different levels of gear.

I think I would rather Genderswaps over progression designs, but who knows... 40x5=ton of cash from some backers.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/08 23:12:23


Post by: insaniak


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
A Hero’s relative power level is gauged by six classes: C-Class, B-Class, A-Class, S-Class, X-Class, and XS-Class.

Ugh, really?

At the very least, if you're going to have too many different character classes, give them some sort of descriptive names so that people can remember what they all are.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/08 23:26:44


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I'm not quite sure how SPM is doing it, but I think it's 5 classes of advancement (i.e. B, A, S, X, XS) with some sub-restrictions by affinity (i.e.Emerald, Citrine, Ruby, Sapphire). So at most, it's 5x 4 = 20, not 5x 40+ = 200+.

The C-B-A-S tier ranking thing is semi-common in Anime / Manga-related stuff, but I don't think it's typical in Western RPGs.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/08 23:51:56


Post by: nkelsch


I don't expect 'Fire Mage' to have a Physical path upgrade.

Since the only art we see is Fire Mage in 3 different levels, I am going to assume *IF* they do varient models, it will be B, A and S ranked sculpts, possibly X.

I would rather alt genders and more types opposed to 3-4 sculpts of the same hero/monster with new armor but who knows what people will buy?

Maybe this is their new way to balance the existing heroes? So the good ones are already A, Ninja Cola is X off the bat.

The thing is... I want to see rule mechanics pre KS end but I know we won't. I am sure the models will be awesome... The town hall vs orcs looks amazing. I hope for NPCs when they talk about townfolk so who knows what to expect.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 00:00:43


Post by: JohnHwangDD


So are the SDE 2.0 models S-tier instead of B-tier? Is that what they represent?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 00:30:17


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


My wallet seriously cringes at the thought of all those alt sculpts they could put out.

Hell, forget the game... just give me a minis only pledge for this. I mentioned this to my daughter and she just started wishlisting off all the characters designs she wants to see.

I mean, jeez, if they went and did upgrade sculpts for all the various classes... oh man. Better see some Dragon Blade updates! Blinged out SD dragon armor here I come!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 00:40:35


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I don't think that's where SPM is going with this, just the new (digital) sculpt for each of the original models. More and more of the same has diminishing returns faster than adding new themed areas.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 09:12:29


Post by: JonWebb


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not quite sure how SPM is doing it, but I think it's 5 classes of advancement (i.e. B, A, S, X, XS) with some sub-restrictions by affinity (i.e.Emerald, Citrine, Ruby, Sapphire). So at most, it's 5x 4 = 20, not 5x 40+ = 200+.

The C-B-A-S tier ranking thing is semi-common in Anime / Manga-related stuff, but I don't think it's typical in Western RPGs.


Yup, ties in nicely to the SDE computer game vibe that has always been a core part of the world.

Could have been worse, could have been Stone/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Pure Platinum

I'm still not sure how I feel about the RPG addition to the game, but no doubt I will be going all in, if only to keep up the SDE collection... don't you hate it when you have games that you collect because you have to collect them. Damn my OCD nature.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 16:51:28


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Oh, I get the completist collector appeal, but I've deliberately skipped a few items, and may skip a few more this go around. The warbands will depend a lot on what they look like.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/09 21:33:02


Post by: Dentry


 insaniak wrote:
At the very least, if you're going to have too many different character classes, give them some sort of descriptive names so that people can remember what they all are.

I think you misunderstood. These aren't character classes like Warrior or Mage, they're power level classifications. From what they've described so far character affinities are more like character classes with fighting style / stat combinations we're used to.

Apologies if I misunderstood your post.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't think that's where SPM is going with this, just the new (digital) sculpt for each of the original models. More and more of the same has diminishing returns faster than adding new themed areas.

Agreed. But I feel the new renders are distinct / detailed enough compared to the original models that they'll serve nicely as upgraded versions to those heroes. Alt-genders would be great, too, as Nkelsch suggests.

The type and class systems sounds fine to me. It's smaller and simpler. We don't really need that bit of additional complexity with each hero having individual paths.

What are the odds that they'd do hero bundles along the same lines as the ones from the Forgotten King KS? I need to fill out my collection.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/10 14:18:41


Post by: Grot 6


I have this game, and a few expansions and metal figures.

Anyone else want it, I'm unfortunately not going to be able to get to it.200.00, and you get a good gak load of stuff.

Love the chibis, but real life is getting in the way of my gaming.

PM me if your interested.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/12 18:00:37


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Soda Pop Miniatures
1 hr ·


In regards to the Legends Kickstarter, it had originally been our hope to launch today (Oct 12). However, we are waiting on a few more sculpts and pieces of art to be completed, so that we can launch fully prepared, with a gorgeous lineup of models to show you. We are still planning to launch this month. We will provide everyone with advance notice several days before launch, so that you can be prepared to pledge early. We want to ensure that the forthcoming Kickstarter is our best, and most rewarding one yet!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/12 19:02:20


Post by: JohnHwangDD


New Update today!
Building the Guild

Published by deke, on October 12, 2015.

You’re ready to play Super Dungeon Legends. You’re super excited to advance your Heroes and tell their stories. Except you have a problem. The Heroes of Crystalia are vast and varied, with more coming, and you can’t decide between your Glimmerdusk Ranger, Ezybeth Goldenbow, or your Hearthsworn Fighter, Dugual Drinkstoomuch. It wouldn’t be a big deal if your friends weren’t in a similar quandary of Hero uncertainty. Unfortunately, between the five of you ten Heroes is just a bit much for a “party.”

{super-dungeon-hearthsworn-fighter-2-sculpt}

Don’t despair. It’s Guild Time!

In Super Dungeon Legends, Heroes can purchase a Guild License from the crown and establish their own Guild of Heroes. Guilds allow each player within the party to have up to three Heroes, which they can chose from for each adventure, while allowing all the Heroes of the guild to advance. A party may share items and treasure gained in adventures across all of the Heroes within their guild. Heroes that are in the guild, but which did not participate in an adventure gain crystals to purchase new abilities and skills, albeit at a reduced pace than the Heroes who participated in the adventure. Switching between Heroes is done in downtime, between adventures.

Each player may only have three Heroes in the party’s guild. If a player wishes to add another Hero, and already has three Heroes, the player must dismiss one of their Heroes that are currently in the guild.

Guilds unlock a great deal of versatility for both your options in gameplay, and the stories a player can tell with their Heroes. Perhaps the story you want to tell is of brothers, one practiced in martial prowess, the other in magical might, who must struggle against their differing views on the world in addition to the denizens of darkness. Perhaps your party really needs a dexterity hero this adventure? Or perhaps a model was just released that would fit perfectly into your existing campaign?

{super-dungeon-glimmerdusk-ranger-2-sculpt}

Start Date

Not surprisingly, we’re getting asked a lot about when the Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter is beginning. It had originally been our hope to launch today (Oct 12). However, we are waiting on a few more sculpts and pieces of art to be completed, so that we can launch fully prepared, with a gorgeous lineup of models to show you.

We know from experience that it is best to launch as prepared as possible and don’t want to rush anything to hit an arbitrary start date. We want to ensure that the forthcoming Kickstarter is our best, and most rewarding one yet!

We are still planning to launch this month. We will provide everyone with advance notice several days before launch, so that you can be prepared to pledge early and join us for the entire journey.

http://ninjadivision.com/building-the-guild/

The Guild concept isn't bad, basically a "tax" to share spoils, so we're not locked into playing the same Heroes every single time.

I'm assuming the KS launch announcement will be Thursday, for next Monday.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/13 03:48:32


Post by: ArtIsGreat


I hope they do another new edition of the rules, further complicating the game of course, replacing all the cards from previous games ... on and on with every new KS until the rules are a phone book and the cards fill a suitcase. That's what I want.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/13 15:28:57


Post by: nkelsch


ArtIsGreat wrote:
I hope they do another new edition of the rules, further complicating the game of course, replacing all the cards from previous games ... on and on with every new KS until the rules are a phone book and the cards fill a suitcase. That's what I want.


I doubt they will have any of the rules actually 'done' for us to see... :(

Also, the way the figures are getting worse and worse, it looks like every female sculpt is obscenely unreasonable and it is ruining the model line. I know people have complained in the past about the pointlessly oversized boobs on some models, but I wasn't aware 100% of new female sculpts were going to be Marie-Claude levels of boob jobs. It would have been nice to have variety.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/13 15:40:44


Post by: Nostromodamus


I love SDE, but I can currently play any other game I own at least twice in the time it takes to get through a game of Arcade. Legends adds yet more detail/complication. I doubt it would see my table, hence I won't be pledging.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/13 17:16:40


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Speaking of the excessive boobage, there's actually a discussion on the SDE boards about it.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/13 18:08:19


Post by: BigOscar


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Speaking of the excessive boobage, there's actually a discussion on the SDE boards about it.

Excessive is probably the right word tbh. I'm not one of these people who objects from a "it's overly sexual and drives away women" standpoint, although I do agree it just doesn't affect me particularly (the women in my life who might play this won't care). The main problem for me is that some of them just look stupidly out of proportion. Some aren't too bad, but some of the artwork looks genuinely ridiculous.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 02:44:07


Post by: ArtIsGreat


Size of the Super deformed bewbs slowly trading places with head size. I'll check in again 10 games from now, results should be awesome.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 08:44:53


Post by: Sarouan


Yeah, it's always funny to see people complaining about a Super Deformed miniature. Of course their boobs are oversized - by the way, if you didn't notice, the same is for the head. And a lot of other things as well (weapons, guys? Seriously?).

I can see why they did this. You had the answer with the Sister of Light, where it was difficult to tell if it was a girl or a boy. For Chibi characters, it's not always easy to tell the difference.

Here, no prob; you can tell they are women. Unless they're traps.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 08:56:57


Post by: Mymearan


Why is it so important to tell if they are men or women? That's not a good justification at all. It looks ridiculous is all.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 09:43:15


Post by: Sarouan


 Mymearan wrote:
Why is it so important to tell if they are men or women? That's not a good justification at all. It looks ridiculous is all.


Yet, no boobs and Chibi characters can be an opened door for people saying Soda Pop is making "sexually dressed children" miniatures. Yeah, that's stupid and yet I'm pretty sure there are some dumb enough to do it anyway.

So here, big boobs and you can't say they are little girls but fully developped women. In a Super Deformed way.

And anyway, like they said on the official boards, it's not really a big deal. Those "offended" are often not those who are really into Soda Pop products.

After all, it's always the same people who try to see evil where there is not.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 10:15:06


Post by: Nostromodamus


I remember during the FK campaign there were one or two backers that tried protesting the "sexualising of children", not understanding that these aren't miniatures of children.

If people really have a problem with the bewbs on SDE minis, God help them if they see any of Soda Pop's other games...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 10:24:10


Post by: Sining


Isn't boobs what Sodapop is about? They've always come across and unabashedly fan-servicey. If you don't like it, don't buy it?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 10:28:55


Post by: Nostromodamus


Sining wrote:
Isn't boobs what Sodapop is about? They've always come across and unabashedly fan-servicey. If you don't like it, don't buy it?


Unfortunately some folks are of the mindset that if they don't like it, they have to protect everyone from the evil and stop it being made available.

That applies to more things in life than just chibi bewbs, too...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 11:33:31


Post by: insaniak


 Mymearan wrote:
Why is it so important to tell if they are men or women?.

I would think because people want to be able to tell if their character is male or female.

Does there need to be another reason?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 11:41:46


Post by: Bioptic


 Alex C wrote:
I remember during the FK campaign there were one or two backers that tried protesting the "sexualising of children", not understanding that these aren't miniatures of children.

If people really have a problem with the bewbs on SDE minis, God help them if they see any of Soda Pop's other games...


I'll have a go at replying to this one - I see the models in SDE as being 'cute' in style, and in my experience they have a more universal appeal than traditional 28mm miniatures. That is, I see this game being enjoyed by families with children both online and at conventions, and the models have elicited more favourable comments from female players than those of other games I own.

The more recent SDE sculpts are a heavy deviation from the original style, and are more inherently sexualised. This is not in itself a bad thing, but I both find this to be less aesthetically pleasing in this context (I think it looks deeply strange) and I feel that it narrows the range of people I would be comfortable playing the game with. It pushes the look of the game away from "fun cartoon adventure" and into "extremely specific fetish".

I also have an affinity for the anime aesthetic in general, and was interested in Relic Knights when it launched on Kickstarter. I admit that my preferences for anime tend to be for things produced before 2006 or so, because that point marked a shift from a style containing sexualised elements to being a style almost exclusively about those sexualised elements. I was torn between liking the huge robots and demons and bikers and magicians and strange fuzzy creatures of Relic Knights, but having a strong distaste for some of the choices they made with their female characters.

So my present attitude towards Sodapop is - "you're one of the only miniatures companies making things in this style I like, certainly the only one to be doing it affordably, but you've always had a moderately creepy undercurrent to your work and I feel that this is being increasingly brought to the surface and preventing me from enjoying it".

I wrestle with this a bit on Kingdom Death as well, for what it's worth.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 13:28:02


Post by: Sarouan


It's not because the game can be played by children that it is really intended for them.

SDE takes its inspiration from old arcade games. That's not the current "new" generation who know them - it's the former. They may, of course, but the design wasn't childish for targeting young children specifically.

Always IMHO, of course.

And honestly...did you really see the first female miniatures for SDE? Sure, if you stop at Princess Ruby, she's all cute and lovely - but that's because of her design being exactly that. Looking at the Angel Girl and the others, they're not especially "sexyless". Didn't hear any parent playing with their children at SDE complaining about how the Sorceress looked like - because she's quite revealing, in her SDE way.

So yeah, it's a storm in a water glass for the sake to have one, to me. I believe children can stand some bigger boobs than before. That's not what will stop them from playing.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 14:26:46


Post by: nkelsch


Bioptic wrote:
It pushes the look of the game away from "fun cartoon adventure" and into "extremely specific fetish".

So my present attitude towards Sodapop is - "you're one of the only miniatures companies making things in this style I like, certainly the only one to be doing it affordably, but you've always had a moderately creepy undercurrent to your work and I feel that this is being increasingly brought to the surface and preventing me from enjoying it".


This is it. Period.

I really think more people are not asking for censorship as much as variety. The sorceress being revealing in a set of 8+ heroes of varying shape and size is seen as normal. an entire line where every single female sculpt is extreme boobs and revealing costume is seen as sexualizing. And anything 'chibi' will be seen as 'child-like' by definition both by people aware of anime tropes and casual bystanders.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 14:40:32


Post by: Cyporiean


This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with some folks about Nendoroid (A line of Chibi figures) Raiden from MGS2, and the alternate body it comes with.

Spoiler:


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 14:42:16


Post by: cincydooley


That alternate body is hilarious.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 15:19:55


Post by: Sarouan


nkelsch wrote:

The sorceress being revealing in a set of 8+ heroes of varying shape and size is seen as normal. an entire line where every single female sculpt is extreme boobs and revealing costume is seen as sexualizing. And anything 'chibi' will be seen as 'child-like' by definition both by people aware of anime tropes and casual bystanders.


The only difference is their boob size (I would say miniature scale as well, though) and more details. Their costumes didn't change.

Just check the first edition miniatures and see the renders next to them. Poses aren't especially more or less "sexy" than before. First barbarian wasn't especially wearing much, it's just that her big axe was right in front of her torso, so you couldn't really see her boobs. But by looking at her back, you could imagine how few she was wearing at that place...

Also, note you see renders here - actual painted miniatures may "feel" different. For example, you seem to see the Burglar Cat as a "revealing sexy" miniature. Not sure you will say the same if it is painted in a way her boobs don't show any skin...and she wears trousers, by the way. Too bad for your "statement" of all female miniatures being showed in a sexy way for "new SDE".

Style is still "cartoon" and "super deformed". And if people think "child-like" with such big boobs...they really need to check their eyes.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 15:34:12


Post by: Sining


Child-like with big boobs? That's an actual anime female archetype like that....


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 17:40:12


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Sarouan wrote:Those "offended" are often not those who are really into Soda Pop products.

After all, it's always the same people who try to see evil where there is not.


Alex C wrote:If people really have a problem with the bewbs on SDE minis, God help them if they see any of Soda Pop's other games...


Alex C wrote:Unfortunately some folks are of the mindset that if they don't like it, they have to protect everyone from the evil and stop it being made available.

That applies to more things in life than just chibi bewbs, too...


Let's be really fething clear about what's going on here, rather than saying totally moronic things about those who criticize SPM.

1. I'm hugely into SPM product, having preordered the original SDE, backed for a bunch of Relic Knights, and backed for nearly the entire Forgotten King, on top of other SDE stuff that I've purchased at retail. I can dislike SPM pushing for bigger boobs while still having been into SPM product. Not at all unlike how I might criticize GW for their various failings, despite having bought excessively vast quantitties of their their product.

2. I've seen plenty of their other games, and I choose not to back the more cheesecakey stuff like Henticle Bento. I followed NAS, and decided it wasn't for me. That doesn't mean I can't have a problem with SPM making SDE more about boobs.

3. I don't need to protect anyone, and it is a fallacious argument on your part that I'm doing anything to protect anyone. You're the one strawmanning "Think of the children." Not me or the rest. If I don't like it, as above I'm more than entitled to express my opinion, both here on Dakka and elsewhere. Maybe you should learn to argue before you post stupid stuff.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 17:50:52


Post by: Nostromodamus


Fwiw, I'm not talking about you, and when did I make a "think of the children" strawman? Being a moron who posts stupid stuff, I can't see it...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 18:07:57


Post by: JohnHwangDD


You wrote: "if they don't like it, they have to protect everyone from the evil and stop it being made available"

That, right there, is a "think of the children".


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 18:11:34


Post by: Nostromodamus


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You wrote: "if they don't like it, they have to protect everyone from the evil and stop it being made available"

That, right there, is a "think of the children".


Ah, I thought you meant I was trying to protect the kids from boobies on small cartoony models. Misunderstanding, sorry!

We did have those people on the FK comments though when the campaign was running, so they exist, I didn't think I was strawmanning. It's those people I was really talking about, not those who just find the size/explicity unappealing.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 21:59:23


Post by: ced1106


Bioptic wrote:
The more recent SDE sculpts are a heavy deviation from the original style, and are more inherently sexualised. This is not in itself a bad thing, but I both find this to be less aesthetically pleasing in this context (I think it looks deeply strange) and I feel that it narrows the range of people I would be comfortable playing the game with. It pushes the look of the game away from "fun cartoon adventure" and into "extremely specific fetish".


Should be interesting to see how Arcadia Quest does vs. SDE. They're different game mechanics entirely, but BGG'ers keep lumping games together based on theme. Uh... assuming AQ doesn't do the sexualized thing. It would be a shame to reduce the customer base size purely on a small change in the aesthetics.

Myself, I'm irritated by SPM's use of booth babes, but they seem to have toned things down a bit: http://sodapopminiatures.com/soda-pop-girls/

Of course, for chibi proxies, you have these alternatives as well: http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=chibi

And, for certain target audiences, these: http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.php?option=chibipony




Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/14 22:32:00


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Oh, no doubt there are some moralizing types, and I get where you're coming from.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 11:17:57


Post by: Sarouan


Just to show it is not a "sudden change".

From SPM official forum:

Exeltus wrote:





Man maybe I'm just crazy but I'm reeeeally having a hard time seeing some of these bust differences... Sure, the art may show them with a more modest breast, but even the 1.0 minis were quite chesty in comparison. And I mean if we want to split hairs here to me it looks like the Barb's breasts are smaller in 2.0, and all around we're looking at less exposed breast. Sure, there's still cleavage but it's not as plunging as some of the 1.0 minis.


Also I know we haven't seen the new Riftling Rogue yet, but she has a similar pose to the Cat burgler so I figured a comparison couldn't hurt. Their bust seems to be the same, if not smaller on the Cat Burgler side.

Also, dear lord the 2.0 minis have such detailed hair


You can see on the pictures (and actual renders from that time) that boobs were always here.

Here is another, for those who seem to have a very selective memory;


Tranc wrote:I don't think it's the poses...

SDE artwork has always shown large breasts on their female figures, even in SDE 1.0.
I was half right, I think the poses do play a part now, because the Ember Mage, Glimmerdusk Ranger and Claw Tribe Barbarian all wielded their weapons 2-handed in 1.0, which meant that the weapons obscured their breasts. In 2.0, said breasts are now right in your face so it becomes more apparent that they're all large.

It should be noted, however, that the 1.0 figures Exeltus showed above are more detailed rendors of the 1.0 miniatures, and not the minis themselves:



Finally, one comparison that he missed:



This one is very interesting because you see the actual miniature of Glimmerdusk Ranger. And yes, she has big boobs. It's just that with the bow put on, you don't really see it.


Otherwise, may I make your remember the legendary trailer made for SDE in a video? Well, here it is for you;




And yeah, boobs again. With a boob joke. So cute and friendly for children, right?


To put the cherry on top, Usagi's quote;


Usagi wrote:
Exeltus wrote:
(lots of relevant images snipped for length)

Man maybe I'm just crazy but I'm reeeeally having a hard time seeing some of these bust differences... Sure, the art may show them with a more modest breast, but even the 1.0 minis were quite chesty in comparison. And I mean if we want to split hairs here to me it looks like the Barb's breasts are smaller in 2.0, and all around we're looking at less exposed breast. Sure, there's still cleavage but it's not as plunging as some of the 1.0 minis.

(more images snipped)

Also I know we haven't seen the new Riftling Rogue yet, but she has a similar pose to the Cat burgler so I figured a comparison couldn't hurt. Their bust seems to be the same, if not smaller on the Cat Burgler side.

Also, dear lord the 2.0 minis have such detailed hair


What you have to remember is that what the facts are don't matter. If you _feel_ like you're right about it, then you should start yelling about it. Even immediately after a post that very strongly shows factual, visual, evidence that the whole "balooning boobies" argument is a pile of monkey dung.

But, yeah, I'm on Exealtus' side here. As I said before, any perceived difference is mostly coming from a change in pose and slight variance in style. The argument is still ridiculous to even be having. And the people threatening with "very seriously asking myself whether this is a product I want to continue supporting" over something that is little more than a perceived (not actual as Exeltus has basically proven) are either way, way too sensitive or, prone to making hyperbolic threats. If it's the first one, then your loss of business is inevitable. If not over this, than over the use of the wrong font in an example in a rule book some day. If it's the second one, there's no way it can be taken seriously for the third or fourth time it's been used now. When you keep crying wolf, people stop caring.


Nuff said.

So, still complaining? Then take a better look at what was really made at that time...you will discover there is no "sudden change". It was always there.

Also, please remember these are renders and we didn't see all the monsters/male characters. There may be a difference with the actual miniature.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 17:32:02


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Super Dungeon Dragon Attack

October 15, 2015.

The Super Dungeon Legends Kickstarter is growing near. Feast your eyes on the brand new cover for Super Dungeon Explore: 2nd Edition!



Of course, brand new art of our favorite ruby dragon also needs a brand new sculpt!
STARFIRE


http://ninjadivision.com/super-dungeon-cover-attack/

Not a surprise, but something I may well pledge for!
____

Also, re the boobage, if they're all covered up, due to cross arm and cross-body weapons, then that's fine, too.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 17:41:03


Post by: DaveC


Much better Starfire the original was a pain to put together and too small, King Starfire is great I managed to get one but the molds degraded to quickly so it is no more. Looking forward to seeing what they do with Rex I always thought he could do with a bit more detailing. I actually prefer a lot of the new sculpts probably because they are scaled to fit the newer range and the open stance of the poses they've opted for this time.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 17:51:07


Post by: BigOscar


I guess it looks like the KS won't be until late October, running through most of November.

I would probably prefer a bit more detail on some of those large smooth areas, but I like the pose and the top half of the model is very nice. It should look very nice and imposing when all painted up.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 17:54:12


Post by: JohnHwangDD


What's odd is that they didn't announce anything today, so I'm guessing it won't start on Monday. Probably looking at 10/26 now.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 18:07:40


Post by: ced1106


 Sarouan wrote:
Just to show it is not a "sudden change".


Thanks for the post!

Next discussion: Starfire's phallic symbol.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 18:13:09


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


They posted an image of the Legends Box with November over it on facebook a day or two ago,

so I think we'll be waiting until at least another couple of weeks


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/15 18:53:52


Post by: Mymearan


 insaniak wrote:
 Mymearan wrote:
Why is it so important to tell if they are men or women?.

I would think because people want to be able to tell if their character is male or female.

Does there need to be another reason?


I'm sure you can look on the character cards to find that out. Doesn't mean that all female characters need giant baloon boobs. Even if you can't though, I don't think it matters which gender a character is. Just decide for yourself.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/16 06:41:56


Post by: -iPaint-


Added my quick Photoshop over on the SPM forum thread.

Spoiler:


Personally, I think a slight reduction, or at least a more natural shape and less push up bra effect, would be better. Granted, these are already small minis...

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/16 07:35:19


Post by: Sining


I feel like a lot of these renders are too large, making the boobs seem a lot bigger than they really are. Maybe we should shrink them down to the actual mini size and see how noticeable they are with and without a reduction


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/16 07:55:50


Post by: Sarouan


There's always a difference between the renders and the actual miniature.

I'm quite glad to see we have finally a Super Deformed dragon. This Starfire is much mure suited to SDE's style, IMHO. The former one was good, sure, but he was a bit too "thin" and most important, seemed to have a "normal head" in comparison to others.

Let's see what they will do for kobolds...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/16 12:01:25


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Details need to be exaggerated for the model to be printed correctly, that is true for everybody who used 3D design for miniatures and a sign when somebody is not familiar with the process.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 17:54:13


Post by: DaveC


Starts on Wednesday 1pm MDT (8PM BST)

http://ninjadivision.com/super-dungeon-kickstarter-begins-wednesday/

Crown Guard




Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 17:56:11


Post by: BigOscar


Excellent news, now I just have to figure out what the hell "MDT" is and there'll be no stopping me. Very pleasant surprise, I was expecting them to announce on Thursday that it would start next Monday.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 17:57:15


Post by: DaveC


MDT is Mountain Daylight Time 7 hours behind British Summer Time so 8PM BST


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:13:43


Post by: ced1106


How satisfied was everyone with the previous SDE fulfillment? I'm reading some complaints in the KS comments. Looks like they only started replacing broken pieces recently? TIA!

(Yeesh -- Cthulhu Wars AND SDE in the same week!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:24:23


Post by: JohnHwangDD


BigOscar wrote:
Excellent news, now I just have to figure out what the hell "MDT" is and there'll be no stopping me.


It's Mountain time. I've updated the thread title to make things clear for the vast majority of Americans who don't live in the flyover states.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
ced1106 wrote:
How satisfied was everyone with the previous SDE fulfillment?


Generally satisfied. SPM did an OK job for their first KS. They got product to people, as promised. Not perfect, by any means, and there were a few hiccups in terms of materials and sculpt.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:30:58


Post by: Nostromodamus


Fulfillment was fine.

The actual game? It's ok. Not great, but not terrible.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:41:35


Post by: BigOscar


I won't lie, I've never heard of "Mountain time" before, I didn't realise there was a timezone between the two coasts but I guess it makes sense.

Really looking forward to this, it'll be interesting to see the different options on Wednesday


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:44:28


Post by: Nostromodamus


BigOscar wrote:
I won't lie, I've never heard of "Mountain time" before, I didn't realise there was a timezone between the two coasts but I guess it makes sense.

Really looking forward to this, it'll be interesting to see the different options on Wednesday


There's Eastern, Central, Mountain and Pacific.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:48:58


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Fulfillment was fine. Got it quick, got my replacements (fairly) quickly due to mispacking, customer support was decent.

Game left me cold. I felt it was way more fiddly than the original. Kids at least got the basics of 1.0 and were able to play against me.

Still wish for a more family- friendly official ruleset. Seems like easy money on the table for those of us who grew up with the style of game they're emulating.

We'll see how well they can entice me this Wednesday I guess.

Also that orc is totally an SD tracker of the Behemoth.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 18:51:07


Post by: Cyporiean




That is a very Blizzard-esque Orc.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 19:02:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Game left me cold. I felt it was way more fiddly than the original. Kids at least got the basics of 1.0 and were able to play against me.

Still wish for a more family- friendly official ruleset. Seems like easy money on the table for those of us who grew up with the style of game they're emulating.


Consider SDE "Retro" rules.
http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4655

It's spread out over a few posts, but it's simpler and closer in pace to the original game.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 19:05:53


Post by: -iPaint-


I'll be watching this one, but so far I'm worried it's heading in the wrong direction rules-wise.

SPM/ND needs to really streamline the next set of rules for me to jump in. Game's need to last at most 2 hours for 4-5 players. 60 mins would be ideal, personally, allowing multiple games to be played in one sitting, not waiting forever to resolve some weird special circumstance.

Reduce the number of special rules and conditions for the base game, and add in optional stuff for layering depending on how involved people want to get. Make core gameplay simpler for getting started, require less reference material, and get people more involved more often instead of waiting to apply all the weird little modifiers.

I'll be keeping an eye on this one, but if things are looking like there's just gonna be more rules to tack onto an already bloated core game, then I'll be sourcing another rules set.

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 20:25:39


Post by: JohnHwangDD


@iPaint - I agree that SDE has gotten unnecessarily bloated, and that a simpler game would be better.

Did you check out the Retro rules above? It's basically trying to streamline the game with fewer things to keep track of during play, while still keeping the basic feel of the original.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 20:33:29


Post by: insaniak


Sining wrote:
Maybe we should shrink them down to the actual mini size and see how noticeable they are with and without a reduction

Alternately, we could just stop obsessing over the size of the boobs on a few miniatures...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 20:45:16


Post by: -iPaint-


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@iPaint - I agree that SDE has gotten unnecessarily bloated, and that a simpler game would be better.

Did you check out the Retro rules above? It's basically trying to streamline the game with fewer things to keep track of during play, while still keeping the basic feel of the original.



I've seen a fan-made "Lootimeter" set, which looks promising. Still, it's a lot to keep track of and introduce to new players. If I could introduce SDE as quickly as, say, Zombicide or X-Wing, I think it'd serve as a better introduction for the minis-heavy board game genre. As it stands, there's just way too much involved in terms of setup and explanation.

Cutting back on the special rules, or how much is involved with figuring out what they do (some are more than a paragraph in length on the back of the cards!) would really help.

But, that'd involve new cards, tokens....basically a new game at this point, invalidating all the previous stuff, which I guess already happened with SDE:FK (which I still haven't opened yet...).

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 20:52:26


Post by: odinsgrandson


Huh, I haven't had any trouble introducing people to SDE (even kids).

I guess a few heroes are a little more complex and take a bit of time to figure out, but I haven't found that to be the norm.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 21:00:10


Post by: -iPaint-


 odinsgrandson wrote:
Huh, I haven't had any trouble introducing people to SDE (even kids).

I guess a few heroes are a little more complex and take a bit of time to figure out, but I haven't found that to be the norm.


How long do your intro games typically run?

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 21:50:12


Post by: JohnHwangDD


The Lootimeter version is very heavily inspired by Arcade Mode, built around alternating double activations, but it has a lot of non-standard rules to rebalance the game. It's generally balanced, but double activation breaks down in a 3 hero game, as you'll have a superhero activating every hero turn, while the other supporting heroes kinda hang back and cheer.

Retro is built around rounds of alternating single activations, and has most of the balancing in the setup. It's basically balanced like the original.

I recommend you try a game under each ruleset to see which you like better.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 22:22:59


Post by: nkelsch


Well those MOBA-inspired humans VS orcs are ace. MOBAs are the game mechanic for 2015 it seems like how DM-less dungeon crawls was the big thing of 2014.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 23:15:10


Post by: Schmapdi


I like the generic humans - I wonder if there will be rules for them to be a spawn point too?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/19 23:21:50


Post by: odinsgrandson


The humans are definitely part of a spawn point (that's how the Warbands work).


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 18:01:07


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Earn Your “Always Super” Backer Pin!

Published by deke, on October 20, 2015.

The Super Dungeon kickstarter begins tomorrow, October 21st at 1:00pm MDT. This Kickstarter is gearing up to be our biggest and most incredible ever with tons of new product and loads of stretch goals for our backers to unlock, and further increase the value of their pledges.

In addition to our normal stretch goals we will also be unlocking one brand new adventure every single day! Most of the adventures are for your Heroes and will be digital downloads for you and your gaming group to enjoy. However, several adventures are up to the backers to accomplish. The community needs to complete the adventure to earn the reward. Once all of the adventures are unlocked, qualifying pledges will receive an incredible 21 FREE rewards just for backing!

The first adventure is an easy one—pledge! Backers who pledge during the campaign for the Explorer, Dark Consul, or Legendary pledges will get an awesome “Always Super” backer pin!

Get your mouse and clicking-finger ready to hit the pledge button, so you don’t miss out on the Super Dungeon event of the year! If you don’t pledge, the Riftling Warrior will be very angry with you. You wouldn’t like him when he’s angry…

{ super-dungeon-riftling-warrior-sculpt }

The Super Dungeon kickstarter begins tomorrow, October 21st at 1:00pm MDT.


This is an interesting thing, where SPM is basically locking the SGs to KS backers vs late backers?

OK, the Riftling Warrior looks great! Really liking the Midnight Tower!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 18:36:06


Post by: ced1106


Ugh. Hoops to jump through to get stuff. *Every day* Hopefully, they won't be too difficult. For a Treasure Chest KS, I ended up tweeting 1/4 of the photo goals because half the backers were older than your grandfather and didn't have Twitter or Facebook account.

OTOH, asking backers to actually pledge helps backers reach funding goals. OTOOH FK made them with funding to spare.

Eh, I'm on the fence and will see how this goes...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 18:56:57


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


I'm a sucker for freebies.

Throw enough at me and I'll probably cave.

Give me a reptilian hero proper (not just a dragon knight or a kobold in armor) and I guess I'm in for good.

Ought to just come up with my own ruleset closer to Heroquest with all the SDE stuff I've got...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 19:36:40


Post by: JohnHwangDD


They're not actually "freebies" - they are what would have been stretch goals in FK or NAS. And you're still paying for them.

If you look at FK, there were at least 21 things that got bundled into the pledge there.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 19:56:05


Post by: nkelsch


If these 21 events are going to be examples of the rules or quests or whatever which we can demo at home, I am all for that.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 20:37:56


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


I still consider them freebies in the sense that they aren't things that are included in the later retail release of the game.

When you consider purchasing all of the KS stuff from Forgotten King at retail, it adds up pretty fast. That's what I meant by freebies. Stuff that doesn't need to be included with the eventual retail release.

Regardless if they want to throw piles of bonus stuff at us, I may just have to oblige Soda Pop,


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 21:26:00


Post by: JohnHwangDD


OK, sure. Just fall right into their trap!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 21:26:09


Post by: ced1106


Say, are these "pins" virtual things, or actual physical product? I don't know why, but I'm a sucker for metal things that can puncture your body. TIA!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/20 22:22:25


Post by: nkelsch


Considering they are existing heroes, sounds like they are some sort of 'DO this to promote our game, we will add Bclass, A class, X class rules for this hero to the game' or something.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:11:51


Post by: Dentry


In at Legendary. Let the stretch goals roll in and puff up my pledge!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:23:55


Post by: nkelsch


So... where is the value? They better have some amazing stretches later without stalls.

Retail costs
SDE 2.0 = 100$
Midnight tower = 60$
Frostbyte ravagers = 40$
Crown Guard = 40$
Princess hero = 13$

200$ pledge = 233$ of MSRP.

Cost retail from OLGS with 20% discount: 186$

At least in previous campaigns, the core pledge was at least 30% discount from retail at launch and less than 10% for paid add-ons.

We will see if they can increase the value via other people's money since there is absolutely nothing pulling my dollars from a 'discount' or 'exclusive' angle right now.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:26:25


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Your retail cost left out SDE Legends, which is included in the 200 pledge, so I guess it is a bit of savings off the bat.

Damn.. already tempted.

I just wish the game played simpler/ faster than it currently does.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:32:46


Post by: Dentry


Male Riftling Rogue is in.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:32:58


Post by: nkelsch


 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Your retail cost left out SDE Legends, which is included in the 200 pledge, so I guess it is a bit of savings off the bat.

Damn.. already tempted.

I just wish the game played simpler/ faster than it currently does.


Legends has no models and I have nothing to compare it to value wise... That is essentially 'vaporware' right now.

So 60$ for SDE 2.0, + 60$ for the tower makes legends 30$ for a box of paper?

Like I said... it is basically full retail prices for this stuff, and with zero exclusives, there isn't much reason to pledge right now.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:33:18


Post by: cincydooley


It looks like SDE 2.0 will be significantly lower than $100. They're offering a pledge for it at $60, so I'd wager the MSRP will be $80 tops.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:38:18


Post by: PsychoticStorm


I would have wished they didn't go the CMON rout of shipping to my country for sure.

Maybe the last game I back were the shipping is almost half the pledge and as much as the supposed game.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:40:22


Post by: Dentry


nkelsch wrote:
Legends has no models and I have nothing to compare it to value wise... That is essentially 'vaporware' right now.

So 60$ for SDE 2.0, + 60$ for the tower makes legends 30$ for a box of paper?

Like I said... it is basically full retail prices for this stuff, and with zero exclusives, there isn't much reason to pledge right now.

I can definitely understand not being interested in non-miniature rewards or items. But I find it very glib to call Legends a box of paper. Books are typically paper. The Infinity RPG was mostly paper / digital rewards and many people were very interested in that.

The values there for that paper if you're one of the people interested in the stuff printed on it. Not like they're selling you reams of white sheets.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:41:58


Post by: cincydooley


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I would have wished they didn't go the CMON rout of shipping to my country for sure.

Maybe the last game I back were the shipping is almost half the pledge and as much as the supposed game.


So they shouldn't charge you the actual cost to ship?

#confused


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:42:32


Post by: nkelsch


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I would have wished they didn't go the CMON rout of shipping to my country for sure.

Maybe the last game I back were the shipping is almost half the pledge and as much as the supposed game.


Yeah, but to be fair... when the big boys basically throw up their hands and stop trying to accommodate rest of world, the little guys gonna fall in line. Shipping logistics is costly and a pain in the ass and enough campaigns have 'succeeded' with minimal loss by not attempting to cut costs to backers via shipping hubs.

Kickstarter is a wondrous beast and it keeps evolving. 2 years ago, companies were super worried and bending over backwards to come up with a shipping model, now they simply don't bother.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:45:05


Post by: cincydooley


Also: Inspector Honeyscout is just charming.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:46:06


Post by: nkelsch


 Dentry wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Legends has no models and I have nothing to compare it to value wise... That is essentially 'vaporware' right now.

So 60$ for SDE 2.0, + 60$ for the tower makes legends 30$ for a box of paper?

Like I said... it is basically full retail prices for this stuff, and with zero exclusives, there isn't much reason to pledge right now.

I can definitely understand not being interested in non-miniature rewards or items. But I find it very glib to call Legends a box of paper. Books are typically paper. The Infinity RPG was mostly paper / digital rewards and many people were very interested in that.

The values there for that paper if you're one of the people interested in the stuff printed on it. Not like they're selling you reams of white sheets.


The issue is it is 'vaporware'. Until I see evidence the rules on that paper is actually good and worth the 30$+, I have to judge every pledge based off previous ability to write rules and value of product if the game lays a huge fart.

At least if other games are awful, I know I have physical minis which I have seen and like the sculpts. If I know the company writes good rules and I have seen valid gameplay pre-pledge, I can judge the value of the 'box of paper'. If I back a rulebook or box of cards and the game/rules are simply unplayable, I have put 30+$ into my paper recycling bin.

It is up to them to put 'value' onto those blank white sheets via gameplay videos and hard evidence of well-tested and fun rules.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:49:13


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


You've got a point on how nebulous those campaign rules are currently.

I'm curious if the cards for the 2.0 box are going to be the same as those in the conversion packs, or if they'll end up slightly revised.

At least the family "got" how to play the original game for the most part. I might just pledge for that and go after some of the individual stuff via the PM, unless they really sweeten the pot like they did last time.

We'll see.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:51:45


Post by: cincydooley


Personally, I'll be excited to retire my original SDE box. That thing has taken a beating over the years, and the material wasn't really meant to do so!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:56:27


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 cincydooley wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I would have wished they didn't go the CMON rout of shipping to my country for sure.

Maybe the last game I back were the shipping is almost half the pledge and as much as the supposed game.


So they shouldn't charge you the actual cost to ship?

#confused


70$ for a country in Europe, no its not actual shipping costs, I have shipped far heavier and bulkier stuff from Japan with EMS for 1/4th of the cost.

It seems, because I have encountered it in the past, their courier company refuses to accept Greece is in Europe (because) and charges a lot, or they did not get the discount for low moving countries, in either case they did not try to find a better solution for countries outside their hotspots.

A nice way to kill the game in a country and create a bad taste to a part of your loyal supporters, vocal or not.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 19:57:58


Post by: Dentry


nkelsch wrote:
he issue is it is 'vaporware'. Until I see evidence the rules on that paper is actually good and worth the 30$+, I have to judge every pledge based off previous ability to write rules and value of product if the game lays a huge fart.

At least if other games are awful, I know I have physical minis which I have seen and like the sculpts. If I know the company writes good rules and I have seen valid gameplay pre-pledge, I can judge the value of the 'box of paper'. If I back a rulebook or box of cards and the game/rules are simply unplayable, I have put 30+$ into my paper recycling bin.

It is up to them to put 'value' onto those blank white sheets via gameplay videos and hard evidence of well-tested and fun rules.

Yeah, that's understandable. Don't think anyone has been defending the revised rules after the 1.X stuff, really. And I'm not trying to sell it to you since there are substantiated trust issues, but I'm definitely willing to give it a try. $30 doesnt seem unreasonable unless, as you said, you end up not liking it at which point you're out that money.

On the plus side, looks like we'll be getting the gender bent heroes.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:00:16


Post by: nkelsch


 Dentry wrote:


On the plus side, looks like we'll be getting the gender bent heroes.


Ok... I am sold with that. And the witch seems to not have chronic back pain which means there might be some hope!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:05:14


Post by: cincydooley


 PsychoticStorm wrote:

It seems, because I have encountered it in the past, their courier company refuses to accept Greece is in Europe (because) and charges a lot, or they did not get the discount for low moving countries, in either case they did not try to find a better solution for countries outside their hotspots.


I guess I'm of the belief that this isn't unreasonable.

Unfortunate for you, sure. But if it's more expensive for them, or takes that much extra effort, then I can't say I blame them.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:13:18


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Different points of view, different ideologies I guess, easy of course when you are the biggest market and everybody tries to pamper backers from there vs been the minority and when a company gets big starts ignoring you.

I have already stopped caring about CMON projects for this reason it will be sad if Sodapop ends in this place too.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:29:53


Post by: cincydooley


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Different points of view, different ideologies I guess, easy of course when you are the biggest market and everybody tries to pamper backers from there vs been the minority and when a company gets big starts ignoring you.

I have already stopped caring about CMON projects for this reason it will be sad if Sodapop ends in this place too.


Well, the good news is you have companies like Drawlab to make some miniatures for you, in country.

Shipping is expensive.

For me to ship this parcel to California from Ohio, it would probably cost close to $30.

I don't begrudge companies for causing actual shipping charges. I've played plenty of high shipping costs from countries in Europe.

But complaining about it at this point is pretty tiresome and, quite frankly, reeks of entitlement.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:37:31


Post by: JohnHwangDD


nkelsch wrote:
Retail costs
SDE 2.0 = 100$
Midnight tower = 60$
Frostbyte ravagers = 40$
Crown Guard = 40$
Princess hero = 13$

200$ pledge = 233$ of MSRP.


SDE 2.0 will be $80, rather than $100 like FK.
Legends should be priced like a tile pack = $30, but will probably be priced at $40
And there was a spawn point unlocked, $15 value

So...

$40 SD Legends & Princess Amethyst
$80 SDE 2.0
$60 Midnight Tower
$40 Frostbyte Ravagers
$40 Crown Guard

= $260 retail total

plus "free" SGs:

$15 Tower Guard
$13 Riflting Rogue

$288 retail total for $200, a 30% "savings".

I'm not sure that this will be as good of a value as Forgotten King, though.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:40:17


Post by: MacMuckles


It's finally here, nice! Miniatures are looking very cool!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:41:20


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Still the 1st day so I wouldn't worry too much about the savings yet. (I want more stuff though, so I hope it gets better)

Regarding shipping, being in California has cost me well upwards of 25+ for most big ticket campaigns these days. Big heavy boxes aren't cheap to ship. Does make me pine for the days when companies offered free shipping included in their pledges.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 20:41:30


Post by: JohnHwangDD


nkelsch wrote:
Legends has no models and I have nothing to compare it to value wise... That is essentially 'vaporware' right now.

So 60$ for SDE 2.0, + 60$ for the tower makes legends 30$ for a box of paper?


As for comparing, I think you compare with a softback RPG expansion. Although if it were a GW expansion, $50!

Dude, I paid $100 for a HUGE box of paper when I did the Ogre KS. 28 lbs!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
70$ for a country in Europe, no its not actual shipping costs, I have shipped far heavier and bulkier stuff from Japan with EMS for 1/4th of the cost.

It seems, because I have encountered it in the past, their courier company refuses to accept Greece is in Europe (because) and charges a lot, or they did not get the discount for low moving countries, in either case they did not try to find a better solution for countries outside their hotspots.

A nice way to kill the game in a country and create a bad taste to a part of your loyal supporters, vocal or not.


Or maybe Greece doesn't have efficient, reliable, secure delivery, government, finances & infrastructure like Germany, plus it's very far from the German logistics center receiving product.

It seems easy enough: don't back the KS, and (maybe) wait for retail. If these KS see that the Greeks keep their wallets closed, they will have to decide whether passing the full cost and risk of doing business in Greece is the correct strategy.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 21:09:09


Post by: -iPaint-


Day one and already complaints about shipping. I still don't understand the thought process - "Hey, ship this heavy box(es) of stuff to me for free because reasons."

Pay for your shipping or don't pledge. I've done it several times for any other Kickstarter project without causing a fuss. Any time I thought it was too much, I simply just said "I'll get it at retail," and moved on with my life.

On a KS-related note, things look fairly well thought out. I'll need to go over it thoroughly tonight before considering pledging - do I really need more minis to paint?

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 21:22:54


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


It was mentioned in the comments that the plan is for most stretch goals to be free and included.

Hopefully if add ons happen, they just happen.

I think the easiest possible add on would be make a set of upgraded heroes for when they hit their high level classes.

The demand would be there and it's not like there aren't already people buying this game just for the minis.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 21:26:55


Post by: PsychoticStorm


How about Ship to me in a reasonable rate? not free, just not extortionately expensive?

But as I said above different ideologies, about the subject.
I do remember when the opposite happens, the rare few times, when a small EU based kickstarter happens, the rage is justified when the opposite happens from a big company, the minor countries must put it up and a reasonable argument, shipping directly from Japan for cheaper as an individual instead of shipping directly from within EU as a big company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Or maybe Greece doesn't have efficient, reliable, secure delivery, government, finances & infrastructure like Germany, plus it's very far from the German logistics center receiving product.

It seems easy enough: don't back the KS, and (maybe) wait for retail. If these KS see that the Greeks keep their wallets closed, they will have to decide whether passing the full cost and risk of doing business in Greece is the correct strategy.


Infrastructure is good enough all the big courier companies are represented here, as to how big is the local gaming scene small as is in most countries ending up in the expensive shipping tiers, a sign of "we don't care about our fans outside the big spending countries?" I hope not.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 21:40:42


Post by: cincydooley


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
How about Ship to me in a reasonable rate? not free, just not extortionately expensive?




So, for you, what is this magical "reasonable rate?"

And if your magic number is less than what it actually costs said company to ship, are you expecting that they pay the difference?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 21:52:53


Post by: PsychoticStorm


30$ would sound reasonable and even then it is half the cost of the game, at 70$ the shipping is more expensive than the game which is unreasonable.

Of course at the higher tiers 70$ is "just" 1/3rd and not many would care for the basic pledge anyway.

In any case you will not agree and you have not produced a valid argument except "oh shipping is what it is pay for it" so lets agree to disagree.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:02:15


Post by: cincydooley


The argument, "you should pay your actual shipping costs" Is pretty darn valid.

So please, present to me a valid argument why they should pay for part of your shipping?

As more than one person in this thread has already said, it will cost close to $30 to ship to portions of the U.S.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:14:46


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


My heart and wallet are torn,

I fear I will have to abandon Chibitopia for the horrors of Mythosville as I can't afford both

Curse reality and it's limits on buying cool stuff!

(Can you get a PM spot with a $1 pledge on this one? I still might not be able to spend more, but at least it would kick the can a few months down the road)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:22:36


Post by: Cyporiean


So it'd cost $40-46 USD to ship a 2lbs box to Greece from the states, SDE is likely already heavier than that.

[Thumb - image.jpeg]


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:33:32


Post by: PsychoticStorm


You do realize it is not shipped from US but from Germany and that bulk shippers get significant discount.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:42:04


Post by: Cyporiean


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
You do realize it is not shipped from US but from Germany and that bulk shippers get significant discount.


I realize a lot of things.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:49:32


Post by: Bioptic


I know that both the 2.0 box and the 2xWarbands have the same nominal Kickstarter price of $60 and $80 retail, but the former just seems to have so much more value to me. Maybe it's just that the warbands don't really appeal.

But in either case, I'm in a dilemma - I don't want either warband, and I already own the original base game! But I do want the proper new expansion, RPG rules and the nice freebies. Hmm.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 22:59:41


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
How about Ship to me in a reasonable rate? not free, just not extortionately expensive?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Or maybe Greece doesn't have efficient, reliable, secure delivery, government, finances & infrastructure like Germany, plus it's very far from the German logistics center receiving product.

It seems easy enough: don't back the KS, and (maybe) wait for retail. If these KS see that the Greeks keep their wallets closed, they will have to decide whether passing the full cost and risk of doing business in Greece is the correct strategy.


Infrastructure is good enough all the big courier companies are represented here, as to how big is the local gaming scene small as is in most countries ending up in the expensive shipping tiers, a sign of "we don't care about our fans outside the big spending countries?" I hope not.


$70 seems completely reasonable, given that Greece is being treated no worse than anywhere in Africa.

The fact that courier companies have to deliver in Greece does not mean that Greece is any sort of functional country with smart, efficient logistics any more that the same can be said of Italy. Hell, middle America has to deal with California and the rest of the Left Coast - doesn't mean we have our gak together...

There a number of US businesses that refuse to ship into Italy, so KS boycotting Greece is not out of the question.


Quite frankly, the discussion of whether Greece deserves subsidized shipping is ridiculous. Either pay the $70 or don't. We can't (and won't) help you get subsidized shipping because it means that the rest of us would have to pay more for our shipping. I decline to do that, and will argue vociferously against having the big countries subsidize the small ones.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:02:23


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 Cyporiean wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
You do realize it is not shipped from US but from Germany and that bulk shippers get significant discount.


I realize a lot of things.


Cool so we can agree to disagree?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:04:20


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Bioptic wrote:
I know that both the 2.0 box and the 2xWarbands have the same nominal Kickstarter price of $60 and $80 retail, but the former just seems to have so much more value to me. Maybe it's just that the warbands don't really appeal.

But in either case, I'm in a dilemma - I don't want either warband, and I already own the original base game! But I do want the proper new expansion, RPG rules and the nice freebies. Hmm.


I'm in much the same boat. I'd like Legends + SGs for $100.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:04:44


Post by: cincydooley


Eurosenders base price to ship a 10kg package from Germany to Greece is 54€.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:05:16


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
How about Ship to me in a reasonable rate? not free, just not extortionately expensive?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Or maybe Greece doesn't have efficient, reliable, secure delivery, government, finances & infrastructure like Germany, plus it's very far from the German logistics center receiving product.

It seems easy enough: don't back the KS, and (maybe) wait for retail. If these KS see that the Greeks keep their wallets closed, they will have to decide whether passing the full cost and risk of doing business in Greece is the correct strategy.


Infrastructure is good enough all the big courier companies are represented here, as to how big is the local gaming scene small as is in most countries ending up in the expensive shipping tiers, a sign of "we don't care about our fans outside the big spending countries?" I hope not.


$70 seems completely reasonable, given that Greece is being treated no worse than anywhere in Africa.

The fact that courier companies have to deliver in Greece does not mean that Greece is any sort of functional country with smart, efficient logistics any more that the same can be said of Italy. Hell, middle America has to deal with California and the rest of the Left Coast - doesn't mean we have our gak together...

There a number of US businesses that refuse to ship into Italy, so KS boycotting Greece is not out of the question.


Quite frankly, the discussion of whether Greece deserves subsidized shipping is ridiculous. Either pay the $70 or don't. We can't (and won't) help you get subsidized shipping because it means that the rest of us would have to pay more for our shipping. I decline to do that, and will argue vociferously against having the big countries subsidize the small ones.


The discussion is that it is... why do I even bother, have a nice day.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:12:43


Post by: cincydooley


Your argument has consisted of "I don't want to pay for the full cost of shipping." That's about it.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:20:26


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 cincydooley wrote:
Your argument has consisted of "I don't want to pay for the full cost of shipping." That's about it.


My argument is

A all the previous years they didn't need to resort in such high shipping CMON and Sodapop suddenly changed it, maybe it has to do that now they are "established" maybe not.
B Other companies not related to kickstarter ship for far cheaper heavier and bulkier items.
C for a (my assumption) heavily discounted courier service for such a bulk shipper the cost is unreasonably high.
D Its not if I want to pay the full cost of shipping, I dispute this is the full cost or otherwise that they did not put an effort to bargain a better shipping terms for the "insignificant countries".

So no it is not "I don't want to pay the full shipping".


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:44:48


Post by: BigOscar


In at the full $200, but I'll probably drop down to $150 and get rid of the two extra warbands as they are a bit meh imo. I don't know though, as $50 for the two warbands is pretty cheap compared to what I'd probably be looking at if I bought them retail in £, but the human one in particular doesn't impress me at all. I guess I have plenty of time to mull it over.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/21 23:56:38


Post by: JohnHwangDD


BigOscar wrote:
I'll probably drop down to $150 and get rid of the two extra warbands as they are a bit meh imo.

I don't know though, as $50 for the two warbands is pretty cheap compared to what I'd probably be looking at if I bought them retail in £,

the human one in particular doesn't impress me at all.


Yeah, I'm of a similar mind, already having the original SDE, and not that enthused over the warbands..

I think the warband price is OK, if you like them. If you buy them on holiday discount this time next year, they'd be just as cheap.

The Frostbyte orc warband is better than the human Guard one, but are they worth $50 to me?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 00:22:36


Post by: BigOscar


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
BigOscar wrote:
I'll probably drop down to $150 and get rid of the two extra warbands as they are a bit meh imo.

I don't know though, as $50 for the two warbands is pretty cheap compared to what I'd probably be looking at if I bought them retail in £,

the human one in particular doesn't impress me at all.


Yeah, I'm of a similar mind, already having the original SDE, and not that enthused over the warbands..

I think the warband price is OK, if you like them. If you buy them on holiday discount this time next year, they'd be just as cheap.

The Frostbyte orc warband is better than the human Guard one, but are they worth $50 to me?

I'm guessing I could easily pay the extra $50, then sell the human warband on ebay and get most of that $50 back tbh, but then it's whether it's worth the hassle and whether I'd actually get round to it or just end up keeping it and never touching it. I'm sure I'll end up changing my mind a bunch of times over the next 3 weeks, but I'm leaning towards being sensible and just not buying them


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 00:36:57


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Selling the human warband will net you $30+S&H based on the $40 MSRP - it's not exclusive, and it'll hit retail soon enough.

Still, if you can get $50 for it, awesome!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 00:43:12


Post by: BigOscar


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Selling the human warband will net you $30+S&H based on the $40 MSRP - it's not exclusive, and it'll hit retail soon enough.

Still, if you can get $50 for it, awesome!

I don't know for sure, but in England the prices aren't so low. warbands sell for £30 I believe, which is more like $40-45. they aren't as commonly sold here either so great deals are harder to come by, I'm not sure it's that heavily imported. (again could be wrong, I haven't looked into it much) England is usually expensive, making KS's that work in $'s just so bloody tempting!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 01:38:16


Post by: Nostromodamus


In at Legend level.

I'm weak...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 01:56:54


Post by: Schmapdi


I'm not sure what level to pledge at ... After seeing the contents I feel like I can live without the new 2.0 starter.

And I'm not seeing much in Legends that I'd really be hot for either (500 cards, yikes!).

I do like the new warbands, and hooray for gender-swap heroes! What to do, what to do ...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:00:42


Post by: nkelsch


I don't think you will have an issue unloading extra warbands. Being 40$ MRSP, getting 2 for 50$ means you can sell them for what you paid for and still be a big discount.

I have to say I am surprised and happy they went with such traditional euro-fantasy tropes for this KS. Medieval humans, Savage Orcs, Dark Elves is far from Japanese RPG stuff.

I feel like the billmen, grobbits frog knights and such were a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge miss. Von Drakk was a huge seller because undead is a common fantasy thing.

Humans, Orcs, Undead, Zombies, Dragons, Elves, Elementals = Awesome

Weird turtles, Platypus men, Mushroom thingies = little less awesome...

I think AQ showed how much people wanted traditional themes. Orcs, Undead, Demons.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:01:48


Post by: The Fragile Breath


My wife and I are approaching this KS with our normal Super Dungeon attitude: buy (almost) all the things! We're in at Legendary level. I LOVE the Lightning Mage, the Midnight Tower, the Sanctioned Witch, and the gender-bent original heroes!

My only gripe is that the estimated delivery is December 2016, that's a long time to wait! I wish we didn't have to wait so long between SDE expansions, but oh well, count me in!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:30:28


Post by: nkelsch


 The Fragile Breath wrote:


My only gripe is that the estimated delivery is December 2016, that's a long time to wait! I wish we didn't have to wait so long between SDE expansions, but oh well, count me in!


I guess that is why digital rules will be available 'sooner' to keep us playing. I also think that CMoN is forcing Sodapop to release small retail stuff to keep people engaged. I would expect another release like this october witch/pumpkin sometime between now and december 2016.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:42:40


Post by: Nostromodamus


Why would CMoN be forcing them to do anything? They split up.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:48:40


Post by: Dentry


Must say that the artwork for that male Ember Mage is hitting all the right notes for me. Reminds me of Vivi from FFIX


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:49:47


Post by: Nostromodamus


 Dentry wrote:
Must say that the artwork for that male Ember Mage is hitting all the right notes for me. Reminds me of Vivi from FFIX


Yep, he's awesome I was asking for a Black Mage during the Forgotten King campaign, he's finally here!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:54:45


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


New Ember mage is pretty cool.

I really do hope we see some sort of "Always Super" upgraded hero box for those S/XS levels in campaigns.

As much as I'm usually a fan of the bizarre and unique, I do like that they're playing it pretty safe with the fantasy tropes this time around.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 02:56:15


Post by: Schmapdi


Really liking the male ember mage too. Love the new pets so far also.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 03:21:22


Post by: ArtIsGreat


Please Note: These rules will undergo a moderate revision and update for their inclusion in Super Dungeon Explore: Second Edition


I know this shouldn't give me hope but it does. Like some slight rewording is going to make games not last days, and from a company that rolls its eyes when confronted with their rules being gak. Still hopeful tho!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 03:26:37


Post by: nkelsch


 Alex C wrote:
Why would CMoN be forcing them to do anything? They split up.


Forcing them by what they do with AQ. By releasing frequent even if small updates for AQ, SDE risks becoming irrelevant like it did last time it had a 2 year lapse in product release.

I think soda pop realizes that they need to do retail releases in addition to KS releases to keep players engaged.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 03:30:56


Post by: Nostromodamus


nkelsch wrote:
 Alex C wrote:
Why would CMoN be forcing them to do anything? They split up.


Forcing them by what they do with AQ. By releasing frequent even if small updates for AQ, SDE risks becoming irrelevant like it did last time it had a 2 year lapse in product release.

I think soda pop realizes that they need to do retail releases in addition to KS releases to keep players engaged.


Ah I see


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 03:57:54


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


I read that line about rules revisions and had a small pang of hope that they take those of us with ADD riddled families into account.

We want to play, the kids want to play, but nobody has the patience for such long sessions.

I also have a good excuse to finally pick up Ser Snapjaw too...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 04:46:56


Post by: MacMuckles


Will the single blister models be compatible with the new edition?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 06:27:04


Post by: Sometime


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Your argument has consisted of "I don't want to pay for the full cost of shipping." That's about it.


My argument is

A all the previous years they didn't need to resort in such high shipping CMON and Sodapop suddenly changed it, maybe it has to do that now they are "established" maybe not.
B Other companies not related to kickstarter ship for far cheaper heavier and bulkier items.
C for a (my assumption) heavily discounted courier service for such a bulk shipper the cost is unreasonably high.
D Its not if I want to pay the full cost of shipping, I dispute this is the full cost or otherwise that they did not put an effort to bargain a better shipping terms for the "insignificant countries".

So no it is not "I don't want to pay the full shipping".


CMON, Sodapop and many other companies have come out and stated why they needed to charge actual shipping. You don't see USA backers suddenly yelling that their previously free shipping costs them now.

But to be fair, I looked up a FedEx shipping quote for 10kg / 13" x 13" x 13" shipping carton from Berlin to Greece. 10kg is based on my Blood Rage package with everything in it and volumetric weight calculations.

FedEx international economy comes in at $51.34. FedEx typical discount is supposed to be around 30%, the total now is about $40. Add in credit card fees, shipping the last mile to Greece is $42. You can use this ratefinder yourself: https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/

Now you add pick and pack and fulfilment services - maybe around $6 inclusive of KS fees. So you have $48.

Then you add the cost of the outer carton and packing materials - about $1.50, let's say $2 with fees - $50.

Then you add import duty and VAT paid usually on manufacturing costs - 20% of let's say $25 = $5.50 with fees - $55.50

Now add in 15% wriggle room in the total due to uncertainty, especially since it's Greece which has bad reputation for logistics and horrible customs (lost packages, shipping again because recipient or delivery guy confused etc) = $63.83.

So Sodapop is overcharging you $6+ if you view that their time should be factored in to the pledge level.

However, If you think that Sodapop should not have a safety net, then they are overcharging you $14.50 - but this number depends on how many optional items you get because it affects the VAT.

I don't think it's super unreasonable either way, but it probably makes it not worth it for you to buy from them, and not worth it for them to sell to you. Just lots of pain all around. In neither scenario do you end up with the $40 number you want to see. Until there are enough Greek customers to justify a Greek shipping hub (and a Greek shipping hub that is actually reliable), I don't see that changing. You had a good run getting subsidized shipping from everyone else, but it looks like that gravy train is over.

No one is intentionally victimizing Greece or you. It just sucks to be in a country with poor reliability, poor infrastructure, and not enough customers.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 07:46:51


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Sometime wrote:
However, If you think that Sodapop should not have a safety net, then they are overcharging you $14.50 - but this number depends on how many optional items you get because it affects the VAT.

I don't think it's super unreasonable either way, but it probably makes it not worth it for you to buy from them, and not worth it for them to sell to you. Just lots of pain all around. In neither scenario do you end up with the $40 number you want to see. Until there are enough Greek customers to justify a Greek shipping hub (and a Greek shipping hub that is actually reliable), I don't see that changing. You had a good run getting subsidized shipping from everyone else, but it looks like that gravy train is over.

No one is intentionally victimizing Greece or you. It just sucks to be in a country with poor reliability, poor infrastructure, and not enough customers.


Given where the Greek government is, I think it's prudent to assume they will increase VAT charges and customs fees, as that allows them to tax non Eurozone companies.

Also, Legends does not appear to have any optional items. It looks like fixed pledge packages without any add-ons or options, take it or leave it. This simplifies distribution, as each of the pledge levels can be pre-packed at the factory, with no pick-and-pack afterward. Then it's straight distribution, followed by wholesale / retail. IMO, the pendulum has swung too far, but we'll see.

Most of the Greek issues appear to be self-inflicted, and I don't see them digging out in the immediate future.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 07:53:42


Post by: Binabik15


Shipping to Germany might be half or a third of what it was for NAS (30$). Kinda sucks, because I wanted that and dropped.it because of shipping and here I dislike almost all minis. What happened to those poor cute dragon babies?! Only liking the genderswap heroes, knights and the SG pets and creeps. drawings, so sculpts might be bad as well. Lol@150$ for SG access.

Pass.

Edit: Slander against frog knights AND Nazi-accusations against Germany because of our government and its bankster crownies? Time to abandon thread.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 08:03:20


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Sigh, nobody agrees to disagree.

My personal experience from other companies and kickstarters shipping here is different and I doubt they eat up the costs for small counties like mine, especially the non kickstarter companies.

And no while this country is far from perfect as, is every country, it is not as bad as you may think, make it sound like, or the media you read show it.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 08:07:44


Post by: Sarouan


And here is another Legend pledge.

Since it's quite a "smaller one" (it's "only" 200$ for the take-it-all), it's already quite a success to see such an amount at start.

I'm glad to see there will be alternative "gender swap" miniatures for the original heroes. I'm liking them so far, especially the Male Ember Mage. Such a sweet reference to Black Mage!

Now, let's begin the journey...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 08:12:50


Post by: JohnHwangDD


@binabik - I'm sorry.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 08:21:45


Post by: PsychoticStorm


cincydooley wrote:Well, the good news is you have companies like Drawlab to make some miniatures for you, in country.


You have a bone to pick with this country or me? there is also Shieldwoulf who makes wonderful models and it is irrelevant, Yes, Drawlabs made a big mistake its up to them to clear it up or die because of it but what has to do with this thread except you giving a low blow towards a country, I did not complain for the many kickstarters coming from US who were money grabs or produced a vastly inferior product, it is irrelevant and I can separate companies, individuals and countries.

In any case in your view I am an entitled whiner who has the audacity to complain for perfectly reasonable shipping fees, in my view I complain because the fee is from the experience I have from the past 20 years too much and I have encountered it only when one particular courier service is been involved, lastly no Greece and Africa is not the same thing and been at the same shipping costs is ridiculous.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Most of the Greek issues appear to be self-inflicted, and I don't see them digging out in the immediate future.


I would wish it was so black and white or that simple, but this is irrelevant for this thread.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 09:35:03


Post by: MacMuckles


MacMuckles wrote:
Will the single blister models be compatible with the new edition?


I'll just re-ask, in the hopes that we can get away from the ugliness that this thread is turning into...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 10:09:24


Post by: PsychoticStorm


Weren't all single blister models issued new cards in the previous kickstarter?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 10:35:30


Post by: Nostromodamus


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Weren't all single blister models issued new cards in the previous kickstarter?


Indeed they were!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 10:48:25


Post by: Sometime


 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Given where the Greek government is, I think it's prudent to assume they will increase VAT charges and customs fees, as that allows them to tax non Eurozone companies.

Also, Legends does not appear to have any optional items. It looks like fixed pledge packages without any add-ons or options, take it or leave it. This simplifies distribution, as each of the pledge levels can be pre-packed at the factory, with no pick-and-pack afterward. Then it's straight distribution, followed by wholesale / retail. IMO, the pendulum has swung too far, but we'll see.


As I understand it, since Greece is part of the Euro zone it doesn't get to charge VAT again - 20% seems to be the norm for the EU. Pick and pack, the logistics companies want $4 just to touch a package - I was already figuring the $5 as being slightly on the low side - but overall it doesn't change the equation very much. The thing that has a lot of variability would be the import VAT.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 11:21:06


Post by: MacMuckles


 Alex C wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Weren't all single blister models issued new cards in the previous kickstarter?


Indeed they were!


I'm sorry for the ignorance, but is that a yes? Already released blisters are now up to date and will be compatible with this set? I haven't followed the game at all (this kickstarter will be my first experience with it) but th I don't want to buy models with the intent to play and start a collection only to find it obsolete due to the 2nd edition...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 11:24:31


Post by: Nostromodamus


MacMuckles wrote:
 Alex C wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Weren't all single blister models issued new cards in the previous kickstarter?


Indeed they were!


I'm sorry for the ignorance, but is that a yes? Already released blisters are now up to date and will be compatible with this set? I haven't followed the game at all (this kickstarter will be my first experience with it) but th I don't want to buy models with the intent to play and start a collection only to find it obsolete due to the 2nd edition...


Not sure if current packs have the new cards. I imagine they would, but you might want to contact SPM to confirm.

Forgotten King KS gave us updated cards for everything and you can buy the updated cards in a pack on their store.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 11:30:58


Post by: MacMuckles


Thanks, I will do just that! In other, more relevant news, the kickstarter is 477% funded as this is being written and is sitting pretty at $382, 000. We're staring down the last 2 stretch goals and it's been less than a day


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 12:11:35


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


 PsychoticStorm wrote:
You do realize it is not shipped from US but from Germany and that bulk shippers get significant discount.


that is indeed true,

but

since they are importing a container of games into Germany they have to pay VAT on it (and since the law was tightened up in January the VAT is based on the PLEDGE value, not the manufacturing cost.... yes the EU have woken up to KS companies playing with their numbers and specifically moved to stop it)

they also have to pay a 3rd party company to ship (if packing is done in china) or pack and ship and that's not free

all these cost increases hit me too and it sucks, (and means some KS are just not worth backing if I think the products will hit retail), but sadly that's the way it is, the cost of international stuff has gone up a lot in the last few years

(worth having a look at indiegogo as there are a lot more projects from European companies on there which will be cheaper in terms of shipping)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 12:27:52


Post by: JonWebb


I''m in for the full whack, as as previously mentioned, SDE stuff in the UK is almost £1-$1 parity, if you can find it at all.:(

Will probably top up on the few items I stupidly didn't add to the FK pledge first time round (a few solo characters and the tile sets).

Hoping they tweak game play a little to speed things up, but ultimately I think I just need to force my long suffering GF to play more.

If we unlock all the gender switch characters (which we will, lets face it) no doubt she will run a part of three Barbarians... as her strategy usually boils down to apply axe to face.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 13:43:00


Post by: Alpharius


OK - I need a little help here!

My daughter would love this style of game.

Arcadia Quest is out and launching a KS...soon?

I can't afford both - in terms of money OR hobby time.

So...which one?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 13:53:06


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


We've had more "fun" with Arcadia, due to the rules being very straightforward and easy to grasp. Only real hangup was the PVP aspect which tends to get played down with the kids (every guild for themselves with the adults however).

My kids preferred the SDE figures, and there is the fact that the game has co-op built into it. Supposedly with a rules revision, it might end up a little smoother this time around.

With SDE if you do the consul and guide the kids through it, it will probably be a more enjoyable game for them too. My kids love trouncing all over dad's typical crummy dice rolls, and I'm sure yours will too.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 13:53:47


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Arcadia Quest is all about stitching up the other player (s) and to my mind does not work particularly well as a 2 player game. It does play a fair bit faster than SDE

So if she's got a decent sized group and they can play without always picking on the same person, and don't mind working against each other this is a decent choice

SDE is all verses one (the consul), you've also got arcade mode which replaces the consul with an AI... not quite the same as fighting against a real person but it works ok. It plays slower than Arcadia Quest

so ideal if there's only you and your daughter, if she would respond badly to having to fight her friends or if her group of friends can't be trusted to 'play nice' enough of the time

(I like arcadia quest, but personally would pick SDE for younger players especially as a supervising adult as the consul can always play stupid to keep the game fun for the whole group, Arcadia Quest really does depend on interplayer rivalry which is fair enough 1 on 1 but as soon as you have a group younger players do tend to pick on one person rather than switching alliances all the time)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 14:16:55


Post by: nkelsch


I probably would say if you wanted AQ, go to retail and get the current one. It is a fun, self-contained game with no need to KS it up.

This is a good KS to ground floor with SDE, design for it. AQ if someone wanted to ground floor, I would totally recommend what is at retail now.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 15:31:39


Post by: rayphoton


i really hate the AQ designs though.....one of my main reason for sticking with sde is the design work is so much better.

Though with the amount of SDE minis i have and the fact that AQ rules are free online..I could do both pretty easily.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 15:33:17


Post by: Sarouan


AQ is purely competitive. SDE can be played both ways: competition (Classic) or coorperation (Arcade). Even in competition, SDE still plays "Heroes vs Monsters" - so one player is clearly "the Bad Guy".

SDE is usually more suited to young players - as an adult, playing Consul is a good way to give your children fun. But you can also play with them against "the Console" in Arcade Mode. The game isn't especially difficult and usually, the young ones just like playing with Chibi miniatures and "killing" a lot of monsters for fun.

Moreover, Legends is all about narrative and could be a good way to initiate some RPG (even in a light way).

I would say SDE is a good thing to try, if you're willing to wait for KS. AQ coming soon...well, it's more about an extension - you can already play with the core game in retail, after all. And it's somewhat less cute, IMHO.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 16:13:58


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Anyone want to give me a realistic idea of what the wife and I are in for? We love co-op dungeon-crawls, love campaign systems, etc... and love the aesthetic. Owning zero SDE content, the $200 pledge seems perfect, and its certainly looking like a nice deal.

That said I hear a lot of folks talking about how terribad the rules are, and that it is a slow, unwieldy mess in practice. Can someone speak to that in any kind of detail for us noobies?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 16:38:20


Post by: DaveC


There's a run through of SDE Arcade mode here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQrLfMRnQwBxYhzT31qenoS_k3M9H_pmo

Watch it Played did Arcadia Quest for comparison (but Haven't done the new version of SDE that I can find)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ8fMyOPZ1I


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 16:52:12


Post by: Cyporiean


 Alpharius wrote:
OK - I need a little help here!
My daughter would love this style of game.
Arcadia Quest is out and launching a KS...soon?
I can't afford both - in terms of money OR hobby time.
So...which one?


Of the two, I'd say SDE. Based mostly on models & personnel reasons.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 16:52:40


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


We actually didn't love Arcadia Quest. Our board-game nights are usually just the two of us, and as a 2-player adversarial game, it ends up very light, and kind of predictable.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 16:56:54


Post by: nkelsch


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Anyone want to give me a realistic idea of what the wife and I are in for? We love co-op dungeon-crawls, love campaign systems, etc... and love the aesthetic. Owning zero SDE content, the $200 pledge seems perfect, and its certainly looking like a nice deal.

That said I hear a lot of folks talking about how terribad the rules are, and that it is a slow, unwieldy mess in practice. Can someone speak to that in any kind of detail for us noobies?


Here is the main 'hook' that you are in for with SDE. It is a game which relies on 'expansions' for variety.

You can play a game like monopoly or AQ 50 times with the same rules and the game is different and fresh due to what people do and adapting to new scenarios.

For the most part, if you play SDE with the same spawns and same heroes, after a while it becomes the same playthrough, especially with arcade. So yes, you only need 2-5 heroes and 2-5 spawns and a boss or two, but if you play it a lot, you will quickly want and possibly NEED more spawns, different spawns otherwise you will be stomping on kobolds over and over.

You can buy zombicide and AQ retail, play it a dozen times and never really need more content for varied gameplay, especially if you have fresh players. SDE is buying into a miniature line which will expect you to constantly be expanding to the tune of 20$ a spawn point usually and 10$ a hero. Also, AQ and Zombicide have expansions which are more like re-skins where SDE has 40+ unique heroes and close to 15+ unique spawn points which really is large amount of content.

If you buy in at 200$, one of two things will happen:
*You will not like it, it gets shelved or sold off.
*You like it and quickly find you need to buy TFK, mismourn coast, emerald valley, the kobold expansion, von drakk and roxor and probably 10 or so heroes to the tune of 4-500$


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 17:04:43


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Well, we love dungeon crawls, and love variety... I also have no problem spending on a game which keeps delivering. It took us years and years, but we eventually tracked down everything Warhammer Quest related just because randomness + variety in a dungeon-crawl can give it incredible longevity.

The campaign aspect of the new game calls to us, but the requirement of playing pre-built campaigns if you want to go co-op is a touch disappointing. I'd love just adding EVERYTHING to a giant pool of randomness and seeing what comes up, all with persistence, etc...

But the few things I have heard about the game keep calling back to unwieldy, unclear rules, which is more concerning.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 17:09:57


Post by: nkelsch


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

But the few things I have heard about the game keep calling back to unwieldy, unclear rules, which is more concerning.


The directed play sounds 'interesting' but with zero evidence of rules or vetting, right now this campaign is mostly 'the models are cool' and that's it.

No major changes from TFK, and no legends preview so far. If you are really worried about liking the rules, I would do my best to read the core rulebook online or try to demo a game in the next 20 days.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:16:54


Post by: caylentor


I bought pretty much everything for TFK (I only didn't get the Twilight Knight), but I'm not sure what to do with this one.

I'm not a huge fan of the new monster sculpts for the starter, but I do like the heroes, and as has been mentioned SDE is really expensive to get in the UK. I'm torn between the $150 and $200 pledges, I guess it depends how many paid stretch goals there ends up being.

I like the figures enough that the rules aren't that big an issue, but I do think the games could do with being shorted (45-60 mins feels about right).


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:38:03


Post by: nkelsch


caylentor wrote:
I bought pretty much everything for TFK (I only didn't get the Twilight Knight), but I'm not sure what to do with this one.

I'm not a huge fan of the new monster sculpts for the starter, but I do like the heroes, and as has been mentioned SDE is really expensive to get in the UK. I'm torn between the $150 and $200 pledges, I guess it depends how many paid stretch goals there ends up being.

I like the figures enough that the rules aren't that big an issue, but I do think the games could do with being shorted (45-60 mins feels about right).


Rumor is, only a single paid add-on will potentially exist. Everything else will be big box pledge.

If I had to guess, that single paid add-on would be a 50$ caverns of Roxor 2.0 as that would complete their entire back catalog for retail and get the CMoN packaging off the market. (since von drakk has already hit retail in 2.0 mode)


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:53:23


Post by: caylentor


That's pretty tempting then...

Is the 2.0 Von Drakk just a repack with the same minis?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:55:10


Post by: Nostromodamus


caylentor wrote:
That's pretty tempting then...

Is the 2.0 Von Drakk just a repack with the same minis?


Yup, same minis.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:56:56


Post by: nkelsch


caylentor wrote:
That's pretty tempting then...

Is the 2.0 Von Drakk just a repack with the same minis?


And updated cards.

http://sodapopminiatures.com/new-releases/von-drakk-manor

Basically new box, same minis. Von Drakk has been out of stock for a long time as all the old stuff was done under the CMoN agreement. So they have been letting things be out of stock.

Since we haven't seen one of these for Roxor yet, and you can't get roxor outside of old inventory right now, that is why people think it will possibly show up later.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:59:38


Post by: DaveC


The re-boxed Von Drakk doesn't come with Rattle Bones that's the only difference you have to buy them separately now (but they do come with Von Drakk tiles).

http://sodapopminiatures.com/new-releases/von-drakk-manor

I'd like to see a new Roxor really don't like his sculpt


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 18:59:40


Post by: caylentor


Thanks guys! I got all the cards with TFK (at least I think I did) so I guess a $200 pledge might be the way to go.

If only the £:$ ratio was as good as last time


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 19:20:01


Post by: nkelsch


The 'beef' right now is that the pledge basically is:

100$ Core 2.0 + Legends
25$+25$ humans vs orcs
50$ Midnight tower

They basically forced bundled paid add-ons.

Some people want Core 2.0 and all the freebies without the bundled add-ons. They want all the free stuff at deep discounts for 100$ without paying the close to MSRP for the add-ons? It is almost as if they can do simple math.

In the previous campaign for TFK, the core pledge was about a 33% discount. Paid add-ons were a 9%. There was minimal reason to buy the add-ons at the KS outside of convenience or shipping.

The forced bundle into BIG BOX I think was a gamble, which has paid off for them in the form of momentum. Normally people pay for the expensive profit-making add-ons due to being exclusive, now they upsold by the nature of being eligible for stretches.

Overall, I like this model better than the piles of expensive add-ons or the mess that NAS was. No trickery, no fake stretches, just 'here it is'.

There are numbers of people who don't want legends or don't want one of or both of the bundled packs, just 60$ core and hundreds of dollars of free minis. if Sodapop had done that, we would probably have been barley at 100k funding trying to unlock the ragebeast from the snow orcs for a paid add-on.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/22 20:08:03


Post by: PsychoticStorm


 Cyporiean wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
OK - I need a little help here!
My daughter would love this style of game.
Arcadia Quest is out and launching a KS...soon?
I can't afford both - in terms of money OR hobby time.
So...which one?


Of the two, I'd say SDE. Based mostly on models & personnel reasons.


Same here, the models are truer to their intent and the gameplay is not a pure PVP with creeps.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 00:09:49


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
My daughter would love this style of game.

Arcadia Quest is out and launching a KS...soon?

So...which one?


The SDE minis are very cute, although the cheesecake is getting to be a bit more than what I'd prefer. There are a LOT of differently-themed minis out there, Heroes and Monsters, so lots of variety is available. Gameplay has gotten a bit bloated; however, if you are playing the monsters, then that might work well with just a little tweaking to remove unnecessary stuff. Still good, but not perfect.

I'm not familiar with AQ, as I'd already locked into SDE when CMoN launched AQ. I understand it's doing just fine, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, we love dungeon crawls, and love variety... I also have no problem spending on a game which keeps delivering.

The campaign aspect of the new game calls to us, but the requirement of playing pre-built campaigns if you want to go co-op is a touch disappointing. I'd love just adding EVERYTHING to a giant pool of randomness and seeing what comes up, all with persistence, etc...


Perhaps you'd rather try Kingdom Death : Monster? Because, talk about random in campaigns...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:
Rumor is, only a single paid add-on will potentially exist. Everything else will be big box pledge.


I'm guessing King Starfire, the giant dragon. There is huge pent up demand for such a model, and this is the perfect time to release it, given that they are revisiting Dragonback Peaks and doing powered-up Legends.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 00:52:27


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Don't worry John, we've got Kingdom Death in house already, and a mountain of expansions incoming.

At the moment its just about finding motivation to assemble a lot of gorgeous, but very fiddly minis.

SDE has appeal in pre-assembled. I mean, my hobby time is finite as is, and I do play three major table-top war-games, so... :-p


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 01:17:32


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Haha, yeah, I do like that SDE plays right out of the box!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 03:42:47


Post by: Dentry


After seeing the Female Hearthsworn fighter art, I'm a bit disappointed the male version isn't just as jolly.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 04:11:44


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


I'm more disappointed that the Hearthsworn Tincan isn't actually, well... a tin can. I figured it would have been some sort of clockwork knight or something.

Looks like just another dwarf in armor, which we'll soon have two of anyways.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 12:31:56


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I spent some time last night reading through the old Arcade-mode rules, and I really liked what I saw. It sounds like any potential "clunky"-factor is mostly tied to set-up and break-down, specifically in building the decks of cards and then pulling out enemy specific treasures/exploration, etc...

But if you play a couple games in a row with the same spawns/mini-bosses/boss, it sounds like the game should play quickly?

Am I missing where the supposedly fiddliness and slow-playing aspects are?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 14:07:46


Post by: Sarouan


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I spent some time last night reading through the old Arcade-mode rules, and I really liked what I saw. It sounds like any potential "clunky"-factor is mostly tied to set-up and break-down, specifically in building the decks of cards and then pulling out enemy specific treasures/exploration, etc...

But if you play a couple games in a row with the same spawns/mini-bosses/boss, it sounds like the game should play quickly?

Am I missing where the supposedly fiddliness and slow-playing aspects are?


No you're right. I like to play in Arcade and indeed it tends to be quite fast once you get used to the rules.

Games are also faster when you play with three heroes/tiles. People saying it takes a lot of time usually try to play Classic with the maximum numbers of heroes and same number of players - well, yes, in that case, it takes longer 'cause there are more miniatures to move, more turns to play, an so on.

We still have to see the rules for Legends, but...if it's a RPG-like, you already know rules aren't that important for that kind of game.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 14:29:27


Post by: JonWebb


I think what we tend to find is a little analysis paralysis from the player base as they tend to spend time working out plans (that's not the games fault).

I tend to play Consul, and often we find it quite easy to spam the chaff to keep players bogged down until the boss spawns. This to be fair is far better than our MKI experience, where players would sometimes struggle to even leave the first room or kill a spawn point... the more consistent spawning and consul activation often left them huddled in a corner.

The issue tends to come in that the consul can often heal. Even spawn points can be healed (I liked the new rule of the spawn point taking damage as it spawned, but if that can be countered be healing it slightly undoes this).

We really noticed it in the last game (we played all the undead spawns for a spooky theme) with the reaper being a very nasty drop (which I think is pretty well known now) and then Von Drakk himself essentially being invincible in his bat form, as he kept blood draining any damage away. The payers just about got to the time out before the TPK occurred.

This is our one issue, the game often takes a long time getting to the same end point of the level boss wiping the party. The random nature of item drops can sometimes make or break the ability of the party to do any lasting damage on the boss, and with out the right mix of items/abilities then they struggle.

This could of course be in part due to the lack of subtlety displayed by my better half. She often struggles to care about chests and keys, and only wants to whack everything with the barbarian. So sh isn't tooled up or doesn't have the def buffs needed for the end game :( I have to really push her to go open chests for the better loot.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 14:44:16


Post by: Sarouan


Try to play solo in Arcade Mode. Since all monsters actions are resolved by the cards/"Console rules", it's pretty straightforward. And if you're only one to play the heroes, that's less time taking into arguing with your fellow players.

Also, getting the board ready with everything needed at hand is useful. Once all is set and you only have to roll dice and move your pieces on the tiles, it really doesn't take so much time. I'm talking about the game in itself, of course.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 14:52:09


Post by: JonWebb


 Sarouan wrote:
Try to play solo in Arcade Mode. Since all monsters actions are resolved by the cards/"Console rules", it's pretty straightforward. And if you're only one to play the heroes, that's less time taking into arguing with your fellow players.

Also, getting the board ready with everything needed at hand is useful. Once all is set and you only have to roll dice and move your pieces on the tiles, it really doesn't take so much time. I'm talking about the game in itself, of course.


Yeah, its been on my mind to play solo for sure (insert obvious joke about playing with oneself).

Games that go over about 1.30 hrs are where I can see Sam's eyes glaze over and her attention drift, which is a shame as she loves the aesthetic and core concept of SDE, she just doesn't like the duration.

Had the same issue with Descent, and its why she doesn't enjoy wargames, but loves board games.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 14:57:32


Post by: nkelsch


JonWebb wrote:
 Sarouan wrote:
Try to play solo in Arcade Mode. Since all monsters actions are resolved by the cards/"Console rules", it's pretty straightforward. And if you're only one to play the heroes, that's less time taking into arguing with your fellow players.

Also, getting the board ready with everything needed at hand is useful. Once all is set and you only have to roll dice and move your pieces on the tiles, it really doesn't take so much time. I'm talking about the game in itself, of course.


Yeah, its been on my mind to play solo for sure (insert obvious joke about playing with oneself).

Games that go over about 1.30 hrs are where I can see Sam's eyes glaze over and her attention drift, which is a shame as she loves the aesthetic and core concept of SDE, she just doesn't like the duration.

Had the same issue with Descent, and its why she doesn't enjoy wargames, but loves board games.


I am hoping the RPG side of legends allows more of a tile by tile component so a 5 player game isn't a war across 5 tiles at once. Basically spawn a single tile with set baddies, spend a few round stomping them, get loot, on to the next in a linked story.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 15:21:10


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


Hopefully the new tiles included with Legends will lead to smaller battles that don't require as much board presence to run.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 15:36:31


Post by: DaveC


Deke posted the expected MSRPs

2nd Edition - $80
Legends - $80
Midnight Tower - $60
Frostbyte Ravagers - $40
Crown Guard - $40
Princess Amethyst - $13
Legends Digital - $45
Digital Campaigns - $5 - $15 depending on complexity.
Digital Adventures - $0 - $5 depending on complexity.
Single 25mm Miniature - $13
Single 50mm Miniature - $15 - $20
Single Spawns (generally not sold into retail but if they were) - $20
Dungeon Bosses - $25 - $35 depending on contents

So Legendary is $456 MSRP to date ($365 at 20% discounted prices) - I've ignored the digital content

2nd Edition - $80
Legends - $80 (whether people think it's worth that as is is debatable but that's the MSRP given)
Midnight Tower - $60
Frostbyte Ravagers - $40
Crown Guard - $40
Princess Amethyst - $13
Sanctioned Witch - $13
Captain of the Guard - $13

(the following assumes individual releases and no box set of all alt. heroes which would be cheaper)
Male Riftling Rouge - $13
Male Glimmerdusk Ranger - $13
Female Royal Paladain - $13
Male Ember Mage - $13

Arachne - $15
Shadow Tower $20
Spider Nest - $20
4 Pets - Not sold separately no price available
6 Spite Creeps (Beatrix and 6 Ghost Spites is $25 so say $10)


Also good to read that Add Ons will be at a minimum as it causes to much of a packing and logistics issue to offer loads of options.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 15:50:17


Post by: caylentor


Yeah, it's a smart move. If everyone gets the same, it makes packing and shipping much easier and quicker.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 17:21:40


Post by: DaveC


No Caverns of Roxor in the KS


Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 1 minute ago

...
Caverns will make a return, but not in this KS
..


Creator Soda Pop Miniatures 7 minutes ago

I'm looking into the feasiblitiy of an errata card pack for misprints. If we can do it, it will likely be separate from the Kickstarter though.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 18:06:37


Post by: nkelsch


Ok... so no Roxor, then the other prediction is that the single paid add-on might be a plastic king starfire?

I know people are disliking the big box pledge, but I think the silent majority love it, and I am super happy that I don't have to plunk down another 20$ every 3rd stretch goal.

I hope we get NPCs for the legend box so it is not totally devoid of minis at retail. They said NPC tokens so I hope that means a Warden and Blacksmith minis.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 18:12:04


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


I'd be down for a Blacksmith mini.

As much as I'd like to see a plastic King Starfire, I still would prefer a heroes evolved type deal, making upgraded alt hero figures for when they hit super high levels.

It would be a good excuse for an add on that really wouldn't affect gameplay in the least, and give something for the only minis crowd to pledge for too.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 18:21:45


Post by: nkelsch


 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I'd be down for a Blacksmith mini.

As much as I'd like to see a plastic King Starfire, I still would prefer a heroes evolved type deal, making upgraded alt hero figures for when they hit super high levels.

It would be a good excuse for an add on that really wouldn't affect gameplay in the least, and give something for the only minis crowd to pledge for too.


Considering how the 'game only' people are not happy because the alt gender heroes don't have unique rules, I shudder to think about the (48 heroes + 9 alt genders) * 3-4 levels of experience = minis!!!

While I love progression minis, and RPG systems like Mantics Dungeon Saga and Myth have done that, I see diminishing returns for that for Sodapop.

Besides, we know the hardcore mini people will simply convert the existing minis to match the art


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 18:55:17


Post by: Catyrpelius


nkelsch wrote:
Ok... so no Roxor, then the other prediction is that the single paid add-on might be a plastic king starfire?

I know people are disliking the big box pledge, but I think the silent majority love it, and I am super happy that I don't have to plunk down another 20$ every 3rd stretch goal.

I hope we get NPCs for the legend box so it is not totally devoid of minis at retail. They said NPC tokens so I hope that means a Warden and Blacksmith minis.


As the owner of an expensive resin King Starfire I would not be happy seeing him make a return. He was sold as a limited edition model and I'd prefer he was kept that way.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 19:13:30


Post by: -iPaint-


nkelsch wrote:
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I'd be down for a Blacksmith mini.

As much as I'd like to see a plastic King Starfire, I still would prefer a heroes evolved type deal, making upgraded alt hero figures for when they hit super high levels.

It would be a good excuse for an add on that really wouldn't affect gameplay in the least, and give something for the only minis crowd to pledge for too.


Considering how the 'game only' people are not happy because the alt gender heroes don't have unique rules, I shudder to think about the (48 heroes + 9 alt genders) * 3-4 levels of experience = minis!!!

While I love progression minis, and RPG systems like Mantics Dungeon Saga and Myth have done that, I see diminishing returns for that for Sodapop.

Besides, we know the hardcore mini people will simply convert the existing minis to match the art


People are complaining that the alt gender minis aren't getting unique rules? Gah, glad I stay away from KS comments...

~iPaint


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 19:14:56


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I think it's obvious that the genderflip Heroes will be sold as a $50(?) set, just like we saw in the FK PM.

We should also expect that the 6 Spite creeps get bundled with a full 6 tile set for the Midnight Tower.

Finally, we should see those 6 pets sold as a set of Wonders, but probably bundled with Creeps, Treasure Chests and/or Bootys to provide the "missing" models for SDE 2.0. I'd peg the price at $20, as that's the price difference between SDE 2.0 and FK, which inlcudes 6 Pets, 6 Creeps, Chests & Bootys.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Catyrpelius wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Ok... so no Roxor, then the other prediction is that the single paid add-on might be a plastic king starfire?


As the owner of an expensive resin King Starfire I would not be happy seeing him make a return. He was sold as a limited edition model and I'd prefer he was kept that way.


There is no way that ND will sell more resin King Starfire models - the model wasn't designed for mass production, and it's quite dated.

They should unlock a new King Starfire model in plastic, given the number of people who continue to request one, and would gladly buy one if it were available.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 19:24:51


Post by: 455_PWR


"As the owner of an expensive resin King Starfire I would not be happy seeing him make a return. He was sold as a limited edition model and I'd prefer he was kept that way"

He was made in resin due to size, and ended up having massive mould issues and miscast issues. This made production limited, but he IS NOT a limited edition model in any way (limited production and mould breaking problems does not equate to limited edition). Soda pop miniatures prides themselves on no exclusives... this coming from a backer of the relic knights sde"kickstarter exclusive" models that they made not exclusive later due to this policy (the made me upset as I only pledged so I could get those... advertised as exclusive).

We will see him in plastic (in a much better modern sculpt), and most likely in this campaign. I like their new more grown up chibi looks vs the old childish chibi looks. The new normal stature model is huge and aggressively gorgeous!


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 20:08:56


Post by: DaveC


I hope they do a plastic King Starfire I have the resin one but I doubt it will ever be more than a display piece (when I get around to painting it) it's just not as robust as a plastic piece for gaming.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 20:19:38


Post by: nkelsch


I bet any King Starfire model will be a different pose to as the new 2.0 Starfire looks nothing like 1.0 starfire or King Starfire.

He is kinda in the middle of the two of small-head real vs oversized head cartoon.

I think *IF* SPM wants to tackle a 40$ single massive monster in plastic, then King Starfire is it. Especially with AQ clearly having one in the wings. Even mantic's Dungeon Saga big green dragon guy is a fun (but dorky looking) model and that people want a big durable dragon piece.

I won't be sad if they don't choose to go that path since I know nothing about how hard it is to make something like that in plastic, but if they made it, I would pick it up.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 21:15:42


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It can't be that hard to make a dragon - Reaper does like a half dozen Dragons / Wyverns / whatever every KS, and they all sell like crazy.

The only question is what sort of creeps would get bundled in with King Starfire if sold as a Boss, or if it gets expanded to some sort of $60 MSRP Level box.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 21:19:28


Post by: highlord tamburlaine


A level box would be an interesting way to sell him.

Boss, maybe a tile or two, some creeps... I could see something like that selling for around $60.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 22:11:53


Post by: JohnHwangDD


A $60 MSRP Level box is typically a 3 Heroes, Boss, mini-Boss, and 3 spawns; no tiles, though.

A King Starfire "level box" might be as little as 1 Hero, Legendary Boss (on 3" base!), 6 creeps and 1 spawn, where the awesomeness of the HUGE dragon substitutes for some of the other stuff. The big issue would be having a box of the appropriate size for such a large, bulky model...


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/23 23:03:44


Post by: Maniac_nmt


I backed NAS, and would be interested in this one, but I don't care for the break out on the pledges.

NAS did a very good job of letting the backer shift elements around to build out the clans/shrines they wanted.

I'd be after 2nd Edition, Frostbyte, and Crownguard. The RPG version and Midnight Tower have little/no appeal.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/24 16:51:12


Post by: nkelsch


Oooooooooooooooh, we have our first NPC model.

Up until now, 28mm Chibi Fantasy needed some help but if we get a full town of NPCs, you can practically do full D&D campaigns on Sodapop minis alone.



Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/24 17:07:24


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Well, their evil scheme worked. The 2.0 rulebook I read sounded very fun, this KS feels like a good value at $200 already, and the wife and I are feeling a mid-weight campaign board-game to break-up our heavier games, and table-top minis sessions.

I went ahead and ordered Forgotten King, and Von Drakk as well from an online shop to whet out appetites. Are those good first purchases?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/24 17:45:30


Post by: nkelsch


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, their evil scheme worked. The 2.0 rulebook I read sounded very fun, this KS feels like a good value at $200 already, and the wife and I are feeling a mid-weight campaign board-game to break-up our heavier games, and table-top minis sessions.

I went ahead and ordered Forgotten King, and Von Drakk as well from an online shop to whet out appetites. Are those good first purchases?


That's 8 heroes and 7 Spawns I think... Enough for 5 player games with variety. You should be able to really get a feel for it with TFK+vondrakk.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/24 19:34:12


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I think Von Drakk, and TFK have fewer spawns than you're thinking, because a few of them are those "paired" ones.

Still, I love Undead themed stuff, and since TFK is already shipped with Version 2 rules, etc... I thought this would be a good way to get playing, and have stuff ready to go for next year when this KS delivers.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/25 05:09:42


Post by: JohnHwangDD


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
KS feels like a good value at $200 already, and the wife and I are feeling a mid-weight campaign board-game to break-up our heavier games, and table-top minis sessions.

I went ahead and ordered Forgotten King, and Von Drakk as well from an online shop to whet out appetites. Are those good first purchases?


Yes, those are *great* first purchases. FK has loads of minis, with actual treasure chests! Von Drak has amazingly cool minis and an alternate Boss to change things up. You'll have plenty of options for Bosses, mini-Bosses, Spawns & Heroes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I love Undead themed stuff, and since TFK is already shipped with Version 2 rules, etc... I thought this would be a good way to get playing, and have stuff ready to go for next year when this KS delivers.


You'll want to pick up Stilt Town warband and the Von Drak Manor tiles sometime down the road, but no hurry right now.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/25 15:42:00


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Yeah... my thinking is, even if we LOVE the game, we'll want to ration out the existing "big-box" releases to last us throughout 2016 while we wait for the KS.

Most of the single-figure releases seem like pretty poor value propositions, and don't really call to me aesthetically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow... the lack of paid-addons has been wonderful, but it feels like we hit an exaggerated mid-campaign-doldrum as a result. We've been stuck at $1000 away from a stretch-goal for hours and hours now, which feels telling.

I have to think gender-swap characters might also slow enthusiasm for a section of the audience, as $20k for no actual new gameplay content is sort of unfortunate.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/25 20:44:29


Post by: nkelsch


It is the weekend... But things are still moving. We just unlocked the NPC.

I like this big box pledge. I don't have to help unlock fake goals, the initial pledge was discounted from retail, I don't need to check back every day to see that I need to fork out another 13-25$ if I want to be a completionist.

The issue is there is no one way to make everyone happy. For every 'gamer' who wants more unique heroes with 'gameplay content', this is someone asking to ditch legends and have a MINI ONLY pledge. For everyone who hates Gender-swaped, there is one who wants gender-swaped.

Now people are demanding 3D doors and furniture and others want more rules and card packs.

Every goal is going to be seen as 'worthless' by someone who will complain.

I think they have been hitting all groups by Rule only campaigns, Pets with new game content and genderswap minis only. Everyone who wants something gets something.


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/25 21:12:28


Post by: Alpharius


Best to just stay out of the KS Comments section, yes?


Re:[KS] Super Dungeon Explore : Legends failed - new Update! @ 2015/10/25 21:22:03


Post by: caylentor


I imagine so.

Ended up going Dark Consul over Legendary as, although we like the new heroes, my wife really doesn't like the updated dragons, and it should hopefully be easy enough to get the starter at retail in the UK.

Agree on this being a better way to do it than TFK. I'm hoping they stick to it and we don't see any more pay to unlock stuff in the campaign (unless it's the aforesaid King Starfire, which we don't really need).