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LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 14:12:31


Post by: Necros


Haven't seen this posted yet, just found it now.. looks like lots of really cool fantasy minis, great looking sculpts!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game





LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 14:47:51


Post by: Dark Severance


It caught my interest however I will not be backing and it isn't because Prodos is doing UniCast for them either. I will be waiting for retail. They are first created, 0 backed and I make it a habit of no longer backing people unless they have previously backed other projects.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 15:02:50


Post by: spiralingcadaver


Principle of reciprocity, or based on exp, or what?

I tend to, too, I'm just curious why you do.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 15:27:45


Post by: Dark Severance


 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Principle of reciprocity, or based on exp, or what?

I tend to, too, I'm just curious why you do.
A little bit of everything. Kickstarter has been around long enough now that I like to back people who have at least done some sort of Kickstarter backing. It usually shows they understand the process, the issues that can arise and that there are delays and hopefully how to hopefully handle situations better when they encounter them by learning from others. It also tends to shows they want to back and help the community, not just think about what they can get out of it. It can depend on what they back as well, which lets me see how long they have had the account to a degree. The campaign is doing good so it isn't like they'll need my money but that also just adds another little flag for me. Often companies aren't ready for "really successful" which leads to mismanagement and since I have nothing to base that information on it, it makes it more of a risk especially for a first time project.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 15:42:21


Post by: RiTides


Wow! Love these concepts, might need it eventually just for Turtleback and Wart

Not sure about pledging for a game due to their inexperience, but will definitely be watching this one (and have put in a small pledge to do so for now).

Thanks for sharing, sprialingcadaver!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 15:44:45


Post by: Necros


Yeah that's true, I tend to look for the same.. even if it's first created it would be good to see they backed stuff before. Who knows maybe they have on a personal level, but made a new "business" account.

I was going to back, but Silver Tower has my nerd budget all used up at the moment.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 18:45:26


Post by: Alpharius


 RiTides wrote:
Wow! Love these concepts, might need it eventually just for Turtleback and Wart

Not sure about pledging for a game due to their inexperience, but will definitely be watching this one (and have put in a small pledge to do so for now).

Thanks for sharing, sprialingcadaver!


Don't you mean Necros there?

This one is interesting, but as noted, there are a few red flags here too...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 18:58:27


Post by: RiTides


Yes you're right


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 19:01:29


Post by: Mymearan


No interest at all in a game that's basically a carbon copy of a very specific computer game genre that is deathly boring, but the models are nice.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/21 19:26:28


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


I'd be far, far happier if there was any indication of a real world address for them

they've got established twitter and facebook pages but they and the KS point to a website with no indication of who they are and no way to contact them (even if it is one of those rent and office places with 100s of companies running from it)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 12:52:10


Post by: CptJake


So, this is another Prodos KS.

Finding out it was Prodos caused me to drop my pledge. Jarek and crew are dishonest and they won't get a dime from me. Hell, they still owe me a big chunk of my AvP pledge.

Good luck to any of who stay with them. Pledge absolutely the most you can afford. Maybe then they'll have enough cash to send us AvP backers our rewards. Their next KS can fund sending you your stuff.

Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625


Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon...



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:01:06


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Update today

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

Basically this is Prodos via a wholey owed subsidiary called Archon, and will be using the new prodos Unicast process

so this means the product should be good (no worries about that)

since it's technically a separate business it should be safe from any financial issues from Prodos AvP issues (so money going into this should stay for this only)

and they have done back end prodiction and design stuff for a whole bunch of other companies so do know what they are doing

but

when things go wrong (AvP) Prodos has really not been great with communication (and they should have been)

or timely fulfilment (you can argue about whether how they've handled this is sensible overall even if some backers have been badly effected, it may leave a bad taste, but may also have been the only way to make sure anything got fulfilled)


overall now I know who are behind this I would probably back if I was interested in the product

(but with real knowledge that this is at least a bit of a gamble). KS is not a store, bla, bla, You may nothing, bla, bla, and things WILL almost certainly run late


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:07:29


Post by: Nostromodamus


Archon has been around for a while, I remember it coming up in the AvP thread. Isn't it Prodos' manufacturing wing owned/run by one of Jarek's relatives? I could be misremembering.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:08:07


Post by: Dark Severance


 CptJake wrote:
Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.
Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name. This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:10:45


Post by: CptJake


 Dark Severance wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.
Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name. This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.


To be fair, that quote is from the latest LOAD KS update, not me.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:13:01


Post by: Dark Severance


I wasn't denying that the shares are owned by Prodos. I was correcting that it isn't a "new business" and that side of them has always existed.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:14:57


Post by: CptJake


 Dark Severance wrote:
I wasn't denying that the shares are owned by Prodos. I was correcting that it isn't a "new business" and that side of them has always existed.


Would you please quote me where I said it was a new business?

Thanks



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:19:00


Post by: Dark Severance


You did not specifically say it although it was implied within, "Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon". They didn't sell the casting technique it was already developed and owned by their manufacturing division of the company.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:25:59


Post by: CptJake


 Dark Severance wrote:
You did not specifically say it although it was implied within, "Prodos owns all the shares, and 'sold' their new casting technique to Archon". They didn't sell the casting technique it was already developed and owned by their manufacturing division of the company.



I use THEIR words from THEIR KS update and you in turn build a straw man argument against me.


Prodos claimed the Unicast process as theirs here on Dakka. The KS update indicates Archon owns it.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:33:35


Post by: Dark Severance


You technically didn't since they didn't say anything about selling their casting technique. I'm not turning anything into an argument just adding and correcting information. If you take me adding information as such then I apologize. It isn't specifically directed or targeted at you but also at people who also went down that train of thought. Archon shares are owned by Prodos, they technically own the rights to the process or at least contract rights through it. Not sure of the terms of the contract but Archon has handled the manufacturing, casting and sculpting for Prodos as well as other Kickstarters for quite some time.

Edit: I did make a mistake. I did not see that they said, "Creators of LOAD is Archon". So Archon did create LOAD, the actual people who wrote the rules who I have been following were said to be "externally contracted".


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/24 13:44:49


Post by: RiTides


No more back and forth please - let's stick to discussing the topic (Load board game) and not drag this into an OT argument. Thanks

------------------------

I just decided to up my pledge as I really need the Blip & Blaine, Turtleback, Wart and Epic Wart models in my life

I'm just after those models, though - if anyone is interested in splitting my pledge and taking the rest (say 50/50 cost split, with me just keeping the 4 turtle / pig models and you keeping everything else!) please PM me



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 06:19:01


Post by: ced1106


The rules were found to plagiarize the Rum and Bones 1st edition rules, and an updated ruleset should be available today.

Based on my research, I'm not seeing how this isn't another Prodos KS, just with a different company name. I generally skip "First Created" projects, anyway.

I'll wait until the product hits retail and reviews are in before backing a future Prodos / Archon KS.

Discussion here about the LOAD KS: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/690765.page

Additional posts on BGG in the LOAD forums.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 12:13:26


Post by: bubber


Latest avp news letter contains some load info:

Kickstarter
Prodos Games Ltd says:
Hi there:
Prodos is well aware that the information we are about to share with you, in normal circumstances of business management would not normally be shared publicly however we have been put into a position where we must clarify some issues with the backers who believed in us so strongly that they put their hard earned cash on the line for a product we committed and still commit to deliver.
You might remember in the December update, we provided a screenshot of the funding that we had set aside for shipping. You may also remember our October update about Prodos seeing the licensor, and discussions being held about the future direction of the game for the next 2 years. We also spoke about potential releases of new models, rules etc. The plan and subsequent deal was agreed and secured with no additional payment required.
In March 2016 we were informed that we had reached “minimum guaranteed” scope and timeframe of our contract with licensor and that they were now looking to renegotiate the contract going forward. For us this raised serious alarm bells as we were in the process of shipping Wave 2 to many backers, with some Wave 2 and Wave 3 items still outstanding for approval.
To allow us to ensure that Kickstarter deliveries will be met, as there are still outstanding items for approval, and to support the future of this product, we had no choice but to sign a new agreement at significant cost. In short, had we not agreed with the terms of the new contract, the KickStarter would have died there and then with no further approvals being given. For us at Prodos, this was not an option. We have always promised that we would see this KS through to the end and this, despite the stress and financial strain, is what we will do.
http://postimg.org/image/jr6qyauuj/
Looking at silver linings however, it does mean that Prodos will be supporting this game until June 2018 at a minimum!
The cost of this contract, combined with the increased cost of postage previously mentioned, this has again depleted our funds and has again derailed our shipping targets. As a consequence of this we took action and offered expedited shipping as seen in the last updates, so that you could purchase a model and have it shipped with your approved Wave 2 products.
Shipping continues, and is funded by Prodos Games profits from sales, and the services it provides, and the additional purchases made by backers over the last number of weeks.
I am again assuring you that I and the rest of the Prodos team are doing everything possible to have your pledges reach your door step as fast as possible. Currently we have a number of wave 3 items with licensor awaiting approval including the ,much anticipated, dropship however we don’t have a timeframe on the approval of these items as of yet.
The previous Wave 2 shipping offer still stands and includes a 5% discount. Thank you to you who have availed of this offer to date.
I hope most of you have seen the efforts we have put into getting this product to you. To those still awaiting, all I can do is apologise (again) for the delays.
Our store link: store.prodosgames.com
Controversy about LOAD the miniatures game.
As there is a few questions about Archon Kickstarters, we would like to make the following statement.
Archon is a company set up by Prodos in 2014 to provide manufacturing services to Prodos only.
Archon LTD and Prodos Games LTD are separate LTD entities and therefore have separate accounts, structures and teams in place.
Prodos Games is an investor in Archon's structure.
Archon, between 2014 and 2016 has grown is strength from mono-customer manufacturer of miniatures to well know and established entity, providing services to more than 20 customers from industry.
It also helped via Prodos connections to provide miniatures for 12 other Kickstarters as well as well know names as:
Ninja Division, Mantic Games, Warlords Gates of Antares, TitanForge, MicroArt Studio, White Dragon Miniatures, Riverhorse, Steamforged Games, Freebooter Minatures, Infamy Miniatures, Age of Tyrants, Rycerze pustkowi, Shadowrun, Demigods Evolution, Norsgard, Miniature 13, Perditions Mouth, Wargamer, Hysterical Games, Awaken Realms, Troll Trader, Armoured Syndicate, Fregged Empire, Collision, hint The Game, Modiphious, Dungeon Saga, Apollo, Broken Contract, Purgatory, Smog Con, Nova open…
Prodos uses about 10% of Archon's manufacturing capabilities to provide Prodos products to the market.
And their project info: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/158572




LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:32:39


Post by: MLaw


I get that it's a separate entity on paper but it kinda feels like a shell company..


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:38:15


Post by: RiTides


I guess I might be a little odd here... but having backed a ton of campaigns, this one just doesn't worry me. They already have their production process worked out (and are doing production in-house), already have the minis created and just need to make more... it just seems so much further along than most board games on Kickstarter.

I also don't mind Prodos' involvement as they have shown the ability to create fantastic miniatures, and the pledge levels are simple so shouldn't be a difficult task to fulfill.

Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!

I mean, check out this production update:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1585725

They've got their ducks in a row on this project... so yeah, out of the 275 I've backed, I'd put this one way towards the low end of the "worry" scale.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:43:26


Post by: CptJake


 RiTides wrote:
I guess I might be a little odd here... but having backed a ton of campaigns, this one just doesn't worry me. They already have their production process worked out (and are doing production in-house), already have the minis created and just need to make more... it just seems so much further along than most board games on Kickstarter.

I also don't mind Prodos' involvement as they have shown the ability to create fantastic miniatures, and the pledge levels are simple so shouldn't be a difficult task to fulfill.

Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!



No doubt they have a handle on the figures. But that is not what they are selling, they are selling a game. A game where the first rules they put up was plagiarized (even Prodos admitted it). If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. There seems to be some folks stating some of the characters infringe on some computer game IP as well (I don't know enough about to form a real opinion but if you are willing to plagiarize rules it would not surprise me to find you did similar with other content).

In the link you give to the update they state:

We have all printed materials ready, core box miniatures are designed and tooling is done for manufacturing.


Clearly that is misleading if they don't have non-plagiarized rules yet.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:52:00


Post by: RiTides


Well, they said they outsourced the rules (I have no idea) and are correcting them so as not to plagiarize. I saw good responses about the gameplay, and while obviously plagiarism isn't OK, they caught it before it went to print. It's also very difficult to assign IP to game mechanics, so I wouldn't expect the gameplay to change very much. For myself as a miniature gamer, I'm really here for the models - which just look fantastic.

The thing is, I backed AvP heavily - so I know people have a legitimate beef with Prodos in many ways. But it's clear the folks behind this game have been really hard at work on it for a long time. I think it looks incredible and is further along than any other board game I've backed on Kickstarter (including CMON's). So yeah... I'm definitely looking forward to it, and if anything not having it blow up to insane levels might make production and fulfillment a bit easier!



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:53:45


Post by: CptJake


I guess I don't see 'We plagiarized the rules' as 'hard at work'. In fact, it screams lazy to me.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:57:21


Post by: Dark Severance


 CptJake wrote:
No doubt they have a handle on the figures. But that is not what they are selling, they are selling a game. A game where the first rules they put up was plagiarized (even Prodos admitted it). If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. There seems to be some folks stating some of the characters infringe on some computer game IP as well (I don't know enough about to form a real opinion but if you are willing to plagiarize rules it would not surprise me to find you did similar with other content).
To be fair. In the English language there are only so many ways to explain and talk about, lanes, attack, move, costs, rolling, activate especially when games are based on the same type of game. They all have minions, 3-5 lanes of combat, heroes that is the basis for a MOBA. Just because Heroes of the Storm or LoL use different names for the same attack, have different hero names doesn't mean the games aren't similar.

I am not saying that is an excuse. I did look them over they are very similar in some areas. It isn't a clear copy and since they are common terms and words utilized it would be interesting how a court would rule. There wasn't enough information, given that it wasn't a completed version though to make a case. That is one of the reasons why WotC waited until HEX had established itself because anything during the Kickstarter campaign can still be claimed as a prototype (which often does have copyrighted material in them... given how many board game pitches I've sat in on).

As for the Dota heroes similarity. We're talking about a female masked ninja, female ice mage, naga/medusa with bow and winged demon. I can pull 3/4 of those references from World of Warcraft alone. I can find more similarities in other games and animes. There is no denying that the example of the Medusa had the similar abilities. I don't know if they just was simply Split SHot, Mana Shield, Mystic Snakes and if they were named the same or did the same things. Although none of those three items are terribly unique in themselves.

I am however not a lawyer and those are my opinions. However if it was ruled that those things were considered infringement then that opens up a much larger hole as there are many companies that pull similar parallels.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 16:57:43


Post by: RiTides


I was referring to hard at work on the models - if you read my post, I agree with you but they said they outsourced the rules writing (which would make sense - they're primarily a model company).

By hard at work, I was referring to the models and aesthetics of the game... if you look at the video they uploaded, they're apparently showing work on that front from 2 years ago.

I don't have a stake in this other than backing, but I just think people are going after them due to the Prodos connection more than anything else. Mierce Miniatures also faced this for some time with the Maelstrom Games fallout... but eventually, people (myself included) recognized that they're making awesome minis and despite the past mis-step, gladly support them.

I know Prodos is still in the thick of their issues moreso than Mierce... but to me the similarities are pretty strong, and again I don't see very much risk in this campaign at all compared to many other board game / miniatures projects that I've backed.

 Dark Severance wrote:
However if it was ruled that those things were considered infringement then that opens up a much larger hole as there are many companies that pull similar parallels.

That's my take - and CMON would be first in line to get sued in that case . They're all emulating the video games, so the idea that anything is infringing other board games seems a stretch - and I would think you've got a lot of latitude when making similar content (see WoW's kung fu panda versus the real Kung Fu Panda, or any of CMON's homage models).



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 17:21:36


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I saw it, saw it was Prodos and walked away.

If I were an AvP backer, I'd stay silent, hoping that Prodos diverts LOAD funds to fulfill their AvP obligations just as they diverted AvP funds to create Unicast and Archon and LOAD...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 17:28:23


Post by: CptJake


Paragraphs were pasted in exactly as they read in Rum and Bones. Not even slightly changed in some cases.

It is about impossible for that to be an accident, and no court would consider it so. Hell, Prodos themselves admitted it was plagiarism, defending against calling it that at this point seems silly.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 18:24:24


Post by: Dark Severance


Edit: Found the source I was looking for. Removed my post since it is incorrect.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 18:26:16


Post by: RiTides


I don't know if it's true, just passing on what they posted - that they outsourced the rules. It would seem really silly for a company to knowingly post rules that were an exact copy of another's. It seems much more likely that they didn't know - in my opinion, at least.

I actually had this happen with our campaign - our artist copied Warsenal's Infinity tokens almost exactly. When we found out, we immediately changed the offending tokens... it'd be crazy to post something you know is an exact copy when the whole board / wargaming world is going to be looking at it and it will immediately come to light.

Either way, they're changing it and since the MOBA / 3-lane game isn't even original to Rum & Bones (but is obviously taken from the PC games) I can't imagine there being issues going forward.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 19:26:53


Post by: warboss


 RiTides wrote:
I don't know if it's true, just passing on what they posted - that they outsourced the rules. It would seem really silly for a company to knowingly post rules that were an exact copy of another's. It seems much more likely that they didn't know - in my opinion, at least.


It would also be silly for the company to repeatedly post that they're shipping items by a certain date or have ALREADY shipped them when they have no ability and/or intention to actually do so.. but Prodos does just that. Or take down a kickstarter page under completely BS circumstances and then vacilate back and forth for months (interspersed with bouts of complete silence) about the real reason just because they've felt it was their only option. They've posted things in the past simply because they think they can get away with it and that no one will notice. I have zero idea whether they knew about the plagarism or suspected it or didn't care... but it's certainly not out of character for them to knowingly post something like that with their fingers crossed. If they got it but noticed the plagarism but were in a time crunch for the impending *secret* totally not a Prodos kickstarter and had to publish something to get the quick cash, I could exactly see them saying "feth it!" and putting it up if their backs were up against the wall.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/26 19:38:33


Post by: Alpharius


 RiTides wrote:

I don't have a stake in this other than backing, but I just think people are going after them due to the Prodos connection more than anything else. Mierce Miniatures also faced this for some time with the Maelstrom Games fallout... but eventually, people (myself included) recognized that they're making awesome minis and despite the past mis-step, gladly support them.

I know Prodos is still in the thick of their issues moreso than Mierce... but to me the similarities are pretty strong, and again I don't see very much risk in this campaign at all compared to many other board game / miniatures projects that I've backed.



I'd think Prodos would have to make good on quite a bit more than they currently have with AvP to be considered a solid source again.

I'd be more than a little concerned about funds from (x) covering (y) - and I don't want to see either side (LOAD supporters and AvP backers) getting the short end.

And in some cases, getting it again.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 01:00:43


Post by: ced1106


 RiTides wrote:
Overall, I can understand why people were hesitant, but I just find it ironic that people were happily pledging $10K per day (with $110K and $85K the first two days) when they thought the company was a complete unknown / new to the miniature game industry / etc, but get scared off when they know who it is. I'd much prefer a company connected to Prodos handle this campaign (especially having produced miniatures for so many other Kickstarters), than one that had never done anything like this at all before!


At least BGG wasn't "happily pledging". The NDA was a big issue -- and some BGG'ers didn't even know who Prodos was. Also, plagiarizing rules from another game is a no-go for most BGG'ers, so that would explain the lack of additional pledges to counter those dropping them. I also read the update that Prodos used funds from AvP to pay for WR costs.

Where did you hear good reception to the game? All I can find is Mike's comment.

Mike about 1 hour ago
@Amarice, I'm sorry my review didn't fit your hope for the game. I have played it, many times. The print and play files were available to everyone. You could have played it too. However, they were taking down because the rules were plagiarized, so I guess you'll have to wait to give the game a try yourself. It was a very simple and boring game. If you're looking for a light dice chucker to play with friends, this game could be for you. The hero variety in the game is mostly just cosmetic, since many of them play the same and actually feature the very same (mechanic wise) abilities!


I also can't find info who the designer is. If it's Jarek again, I guess look up the reviews to his previous Warzone Resurrection and AvP games to get an idea of how LOAD will play. I didn't hear particularly enthusiastic comments about AvP on the dakka AvP thread.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 01:30:15


Post by: RiTides


Ced, I didn't see the launch but from what I can tell BGG posters were really into the game at the start (hence it shooting up as quickly as it did!). As to the gameplay, that was from reading folks posting in the Kickstarter comments who played the print-and-play rules.

I tracked AvP closely (I originally backed it heavily but sold my pledge right after the campaign ended, realizing I'd just overdone it!) so I know the issues they've had... but I just don't share the view of this being so risky that others seem to have. If anything, I think they've got more motivation to follow through on it really well as a result of prior mistakes...

I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. AvP is continuing to fulfill, and they've been very upfront about the issues with not having the funds to ship everything (but shipping for anyone who places an order on the webstore). The reason people know about this is because they've come out and said exactly that.

I'm not saying they don't have issues - they obviously have them. But this project, as another commentor said, looks better planned than 90% of the projects I've backed (and I've backed 275 so far). I just don't see the issues as being a huge problem, particularly since they came out now... they are going to show the new rules tomorrow and the models (what I'm the most interested in) just look fantastic.

I understand this isn't a really popular view but having backed so many projects and been burned on extremely few... I just don't see this as being very high risk. If I'm wrong, I'll have lost out - but the minis are awesome (and affordable), the manufacturer is experienced, and they've laid out a clear and achievable project that is Very far along in development. It checks all my boxes... although, of course I understand if others don't feel the same way!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 01:47:42


Post by: Necros


I'd like to "this" everything RiTides just said

I've decided to back too now.. but honestly have no plans to play the game, I just want a bunch of awesome fantasy minis. Dunno why but my favorite is the basic Eli Ironsmith. He's just standing there, but just looks like a great sculpt. Must be the sideburns.

If I counted right it's 72 minis for $99? not bad a'tall.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 02:09:34


Post by: warboss


 RiTides wrote:
but I just don't share the view of this being so risky that others seem to have. If anything, I think they've got more motivation to follow through on it really well as a result of prior mistakes...

I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. AvP is continuing to fulfill, and they've been very upfront about the issues with not having the funds to ship everything (but shipping for anyone who places an order on the webstore). The reason people know about this is because they've come out and said exactly that.


It's not just an issue of risk though but rather also solidarity with your fellow gamers IMO. I almost pledged and even considered buying your pledge after I backed out last minute on the kickstarter. You don't reward a company that keeps making promises they can't keep, lies about what they've done (shipping and the KS takedown to name two), and treats their most dedicated customers like gak both in action and in tone. I just can't reward that type of business with more business unless they make up for their past mistakes while also demonstrating a fundamental change in how they do business. Prodos has done neither IMO and this super secret we NDA'd ourselves and used two different layers of shell companies to hide our participation project is an example of that. As for them coming clean, the revelations usually come in drips and drabs only when the complaints get load enough on all fronts to drown out other talk. This latest renewal of the license info as probably the most timely we've ever seen from Prodos for the duration of the avp ks and even that is likely overflowing with spin but at least it is relatively timely (but lets not kid ourselves.. it's because theyve missed another shipping deadline yet again and because it is apparently affecting the NEXT project.. not because of some turning a new open and honest leaf). With that, I'll probably just leave the subject alone barring some new sweeping revelation.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 02:16:27


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It looks like people learning about Prodos is proving Prodos right about trying to run this through a shell.

Over the past 3 days, they have net lost backers every single day. And they have net lost money over that same period, basically being where they were 4 days ago.

I wonder if this is going to cause further erosion of the backers, to the point that Prodos will have to cancel the KS.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/#chart-daily


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 02:49:39


Post by: TheWaspinator


Given how badly the AVP KS has gone, I seriously question why anyone would preorder anything from Prodos ever again.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 05:44:47


Post by: JohnHwangDD


... and that is why Prodos tried to deceive backers via the use of a shell company.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 08:51:20


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


Hi there, as Archon has no representative here I'll take the pleasure to post an updated:

Update from Manufacturing and shipping explained.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587696

Thanks


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 09:11:56


Post by: ced1106


Nice!

Hope Prodos / Archon can restore its KS reputation through LOAD. At least I'll be available at retail and Prodos / Archon's partners should be happy. Just make sure the AvP backers get their stuff!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 09:29:16


Post by: Lockark


I feel it's safe to say that prodos will eventually ship the AVP stuff all out, the same way it took forever with the warzone stuff. I will say that if you back this, keep in mind that you may have a long wait ahead of you, before seeing your stuff. In 6 months AvP will be 3 years since it funded, all the way back in November 2013.

Your not buying this for now, your buying this for 3 years from now. Buyer beware on this.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 10:17:08


Post by: CptJake


 RiTides wrote:


I think some of the speculation, like AvP funding WR, is unfair... from what I can tell, WR fulfilled for the most part quite well. !


It is not unfair to say it, the info came from Jarek.


Automatically Appended Next Post:




Probably different enough to avoid trouble, but man, Prodos and crew just can't help ripping others off.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 19:21:43


Post by: cincydooley


I think the rules plagiarism was a driving piece of what has kept the BGGers away; they reacted pretty strongly to that.

*As an FYI, I did actually have this one Day 1 backed until the rules ... "issue"?.... came to light.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/27 19:51:02


Post by: RiTides


Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 05:09:25


Post by: Lockark


 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882



So wait. The rules were written by Ninja Division? Didn't they do the rules for Rum and Bones? (I know they have a close working relation to CmoN, but can't remember if they were involved with Rum and Bones.)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 05:25:14


Post by: gunslingerpro


 Lockark wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, and that makes complete sense (it's a huge oversight). They posted the updated rules today, has anyone checked them out?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1587882



So wait. The rules were written by Ninja Division? Didn't they do the rules for Rum and Bones? (I know they have a close working relation to CmoN, but can't remember if they were involved with Rum and Bones.)


It sounds like Ninja Division is just editing the rules to me.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 06:57:28


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Ninja Division will be proofing and editing, not creating. They may or may not do any testing... If they do, I would expect very basic stuff for comprehension checks, not actual rules development.

Looking at KickTraq, it's a 4th consecutive day of backers leaving, with a net drop from yesterday.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 07:24:06


Post by: Arson Fire


I'm guessing as a result of backers leaving, the system glitched and opened up some of the early bird slots. I was going to back anyway, so I grabbed one.
Now I just wonder if they'll let me get away with it...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 09:11:26


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


You'll be fine, that's how KS works with regards to early bird slots, if somebody leaves one somebody else can pick them up


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 12:03:23


Post by: RiTides


Yeah I grabbed one too Arson Fire, very happy with it! For myself, I also prefer games delivering on time rather than insane stretch goals, so even if it ended with what it has now (after final push) or even less, I think it'd be great. Much more likely to deliver on time that way, show they can make a fantastic original miniatures game, then sell it at retail.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 12:36:25


Post by: CptJake


The early bird slots for this game were tied to the 1st 24 hours. Someone (KS/Prodos(Archon) have been removing them as they've been dropped. It may be an automated process. If you've grabbed one I suspect they can see when you grabbed it, and in theory if it is after the first 24 hours they won't have to honor it.

We'll see. It is only an extra figure if I remember correctly.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 13:06:34


Post by: RiTides


It's not automated, they just have been reducing them since they were a time limited thing. If you snag one it's all yours, though


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 13:17:37


Post by: Necros


I think EB's don't matter now? I just read that they're going to give the stretch goal freebies to every backer of the game now
From now on, every miniature we unlock as SG until the end of campaign will be free for all bakers, Epic, KS exclusive, and not available in retail.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 13:30:45


Post by: RiTides


The EB is just one extra free mini (Epic Wart) but it's one I'm after! I think that text refers to any additional unlocks from here on. Nice that they could unlock a few things in that update, too!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 15:55:44


Post by: Alpharius





Any additional insight in the comments section - or elsewhere - as to what's causing the backslide?

Or is it just what JHDD noted above?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:12:09


Post by: Dark Severance


The backslide are a result to few factors.

There are some that backed and feel they were deceived. Comments section have been a lot of back and forth from positive to negative to positive to negative. There are also people who have backed at a $1 to give their opinions based on their dealings with Prodos.

There is some apprehension with the rules due to plagiarism. Others that have played the PnP says it does play differently than Rum and Bones so it isn't a copy (I haven't played either so can't comment, but that is what has been in the comments section).

The other thing are backers who just don't want anything to do with the drama and pulled out.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:12:15


Post by: Necros


Just a lot of negativity and trollspam once the Prodos drama started. Kinda expected it to be worse than that. Looks like it's leveling off now.

I'm hopeful that since they are doing everything in house more or less they will be able to knock this out out quick and on time if not early, along with finishing AvP in the meantime, and hopefully that will go toward rebuilding their rep.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:17:51


Post by: RiTides


Yeah, it was the big reveal that Archon is the production company connected to Prodos, and the several things that went along with that... still surprising to me that people were OK pledging on an unknown and that's what spooked them, though!

Archon is even showing containers with thousands of production models already being made. Obviously the rules matter too, but they've put up new print and play ones for folks to check out. Hopefully the last week will turn positive again, but they said they budgeted for needing 1000 backers and have over 1700, so even if it just muddled on as it has been they should be able to produce a great product (and hopefully establish that they're worth backing in the future).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:34:52


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Alpharius wrote:
Spoiler:



Any additional insight in the comments section - or elsewhere - as to what's causing the backslide?


Basically, a lot of backers got mad over a few things:
1. Prodos is the company behind the Archon shell, and this was deliberately concealed from the backers
2. That they blatantly plagarized the rules.
3. Prodos started attacking disgruntled and skeptical backers.

The notion of business ethics is probably the biggest one, as Prodos is asking for people's trust, despite a number of actions that are deceitful and corner-cutting.

So no further big reveals, but it's obviously taken something of a toll when excited EBs turn into disgruntled $1 backers.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised the impact has been as small as it has. In a typical trust-based transaction, I'd have assumed everyone to run away screaming. It will be very interesting to see how this one plays out. Hopefully, it continues to bleed, so we don't have Defiance coming back.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:37:01


Post by: CptJake


I think the bleeding has stopped. Giving away stretch goals has fixed it.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:40:25


Post by: Alpharius


 JohnHwangDD wrote:

3. Prodos started attacking disgruntled and skeptical backers.


They are doing this?

In the KS comments section?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:44:14


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Yeah. It's nothing that we haven't seen from Palladium or Dream Pod 9. Calling people trolls and such.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:45:10


Post by: Alpharius


So a Prodos account is trolling backers in the LOAD Kickstarter 'run' by Archon?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:46:58


Post by: CptJake


 Alpharius wrote:
So a Prodos account is trolling backers in the LOAD Kickstarter 'run' by Archon?


No, it was the Creator 'Load Board Game' account that was doing it. At least when I saw it. Wording was typical Jarek though there is no way to know if it was actually him.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 16:51:16


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
1. Prodos is the company behind the Archon shell, and this was deliberately concealed from the backers
Technically Archon is a subsidiary of Prodos, not a shell company. It would be considered a shell company if Archon was newly created and existed mostly for the purpose being a front. They seem similar but there are slight differences between a shell and subsidiary that makes a difference.

 Alpharius wrote:
They are doing this?

In the KS comments section?
For the most part no, there was some disagreements and corrections. There was some back and forth, but the main thing that was considered an attack was the following (I'm not aware of any other responses where they did like this):
John, You are paid Troll, you say you backed at Epic level but you actually backed for $1. This is your first backed project. What happened? Your guys ran out of accounts to bash with and needed to create new ones?
They shouldn't of responded and continued to ignore it. However given the back slide and some of the comments, it isn't unexpected. A normal Kickstarter creator who wasn't a company entity would have responded similarly, not that it is an excuse. It was over the top in my opinion, but there is also a large negative backlash that is also over the top.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 17:26:20


Post by: JohnHwangDD


LoadBoardGame is the shell company. It was expressly created by Prodos for the purpose of concealing Prodos' identity. I have seen the LoadBoardGame sock puppet post on BGG.

Also, I'm not the "John" in the comments - I haven't backed LOAD at all, not even a buck.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 17:36:59


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
LoadBoardGame is the shell company. It was expressly created by Prodos for the purpose of concealing Prodos' identity. I have seen the LoadBoardGame sock puppet post on BGG.
Archon was not just created, it isn't a new company. It is even brought up multiple times over the years within the AvP thread. They are an arm of Prodos yes, but that is because Prodos has controlling stock making them a subsidiary. It has been around for at least 2 1/2 years given the financial records that were referenced. If people want to think that is a shell then I obviously can't stop them although being a shell and subsidiary are different things, the difference is slight but there is a difference. It would be like saying Maybelline and L'Oreal are shells for Nestle or that ABC, ESPN, Lucasfilm are shells for Disney.




The video was created using the "updated rules" from what I understand. Those that are familiar with Rums and Bones 1st Edition, is this the exact same thing or just a similar thing because of the MOBA play style?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 19:08:17


Post by: warboss


 RiTides wrote:
Archon is even showing containers with thousands of production models already being made.


They did that with AVP iirc... and then supposedly trashed those minis. Fast forward over a year later and some backers (albeit a shrinking number) are still waiting for those same (redesigned supposedly) minis. I'd post a link but they took down all the evidence along with the KS campaign page. They've also showed tons of boxes waiting to be shipped out as proof of their efforts to meet a looming backer self set shipping deadline.. only to find out weeks later that (at least on dakka) no one got anything and that those hundreds of boxes went to retail instead. Pics or it didn't happen sadly isn't enough proof for a company like Prodos.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 19:24:21


Post by: cincydooley


 Dark Severance wrote:


The video was created using the "updated rules" from what I understand. Those that are familiar with Rums and Bones 1st Edition, is this the exact same thing or just a similar thing because of the MOBA play style?


Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:

- Hero "abilities" layout remains the exact same.
- Creep spawning remains the exact same.
- Hero Movement remains the exact same.
- Hero Revival remains the exact same.

Differences include:
- Forest deck to simulate creep camps.
- Use of pooled mana

Sorta the same;
- Towers; 1 Cannon in R&B 1.0; 3 towers in LOAD
- Item vs Tide Decks


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 19:39:25


Post by: Dark Severance


 cincydooley wrote:
Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:
Thank you! Given the similarities with the addition of the differences, does it actually play or seem to play differently? Layout and rules appear same but what about interaction between abilities and game play, would you say they play the same or they play differently?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 20:18:52


Post by: cincydooley


 Dark Severance wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Still significant similarities, including, but not limited to:
Thank you! Given the similarities with the addition of the differences, does it actually play or seem to play differently? Layout and rules appear same but what about interaction between abilities and game play, would you say they play the same or they play differently?


I think the forest deck adds a little bit of variation and thematically it makes sense. I think it's similar to the Kraken/Sea Monsters in R&B V1 in some ways, but adds another method to develop an economic engine in the game.

The Mana Pool is a big difference in the game in my eyes, and, unless I'm really confused, really limits what can be done in a turn (only 8 mana per turn?) As much as the Forest cards make sense to me thematically, a shared mana pool for all heroes makes very little sense to me.

Once Rum & Bones Second Tide comes out and the R&B1 ruleset is 'retired,' the games will actually play fairly differently, as LOAD seems to be taking most of its ruleset from R&B1. Second Tide was pretty extensively tested based on feedback from the R&B 1 playtest groups, and gameplay improvements like the move to alternating activation were made. I think that's going to be a big problem for load, as the first player is going to be able to do a lot of damage to the 2nd player before the 2nd player is even afforded the opportunity to act. But time will tell.

From a rule development and editing standpoint, there are a lot of problems (IMO) with the rulebook. There are too few gameplay examples, there are number of clarifications that need to be made, and there are simple grammar issues spread throughout.

I should say that the game is going to be crap, but I think the rules will be fine because they're so heavily taken from R&B 1 (and that's one of my favorite games that I've worked on or played) and the minis should be good should they actually deliver them (Prodos, their shipping problems aside, are incredibly competent at making miniatures--or so I hear; I've still not received any of my AVP).

If you can get past the ethical quandaries there, then I'm sure you'll be okay; I think a large part of the campaign stall is because too many people are unwilling to overlook the plagiarism.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 22:43:22


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


Hi there, LOAD vs RnB in a nutshell

When talking about similarities in MOBA games like DOTA and LOL list is quite long, for those looking from the outside, they might even look the same. But when comparing LOAD and R&B, differences are much more prominent. Sure, there are some similarities also, both games are made to transfer MOBA feel into board game, therefore, both borrowed some similarities from popular genre. Those similarities are:
They both use creeps.
Killing creeps and heroes earns gold.
Creeps and heroes spawn on spawn points
Heroes are put into 5 categories.
Heroes have actions.
Heroes have skills.

But what is not similar is much more interesting:

LOAD has 5 heroes per team in play / R&B has 3.
LOAD has Tournament mode and supports up to 6 players. / R&B does not.
LOAD Heroes can be recruited for any faction / R&B has heroes locked to factions.
LOAD utilizes Mana as resource for performing skills / R&B uses gold for this.
LOAD Heroes use gold to purchase items and additional Lane creeps / R&B does not have these options.
LOAD Heroes can equip items from 8 different categories / R&B does not have items.
LOAD Heroes have dedicated move action / R&B does not.
LOAD Heroes have Signature Weapon + Item slot + 3 Skills / R&B heroes have 3 skills.
LOAD forbids placing more than 1 Hero on same field to encourage tactics / R&B allows stacking heroes.
LOAD game board follows MOBA battlefields closely (3 towers and 3 spawn points per team with forest between lanes)/ R&B have 1 Gun per team and no forest.
LOAD has forest creeps that attack heroes who venture into forest / R&B does not have forest.
LOAD Towers attack only enemies in their vicinity / R&B gun can target any field.
LOAD has 4 types of Lane creeps who provide deep tactical possibilities / R&B has 2.

There are a lot more differences. If you want to track them, feel free to check LOAD rulebook: http://loadboardgame.com/LOAD-Rulebook-WIP.pdf


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 22:45:04


Post by: ced1106


 Dark Severance wrote:
It has been around for at least 2 1/2 years given the financial records that were referenced.


AvP backers have been waiting longer than 2.5 years for their product. For all we know, Archon was created so that Prodos could move its assets to the company, leaving obligations with the parent company.

Happened before with Up Front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CptJake wrote:
No, it was the Creator 'Load Board Game' account that was doing it. At least when I saw it. Wording was typical Jarek though there is no way to know if it was actually him.


Jarek posted from his own account to answer a few questions on BGG about LOAD. So he's obviously involved in the LOAD KS.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 22:55:18


Post by: Theophony


A good shell company is made years in advance to be useful, coming up with one at the last moment and trying to conceal funds in it is a bad idea and easily found by a good accountant.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 22:56:06


Post by: ced1106


 Alpharius wrote:
They are doing this? In the KS comments section?


It's buried in the BGG threads, but the KS creator called a John a "troll". John then actually *did* troll the KS comments, creating his own AM morning show. His comments were eventually deleted, although someone copies them into said BGG thread.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/28 23:22:11


Post by: cincydooley


 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

LOAD has Tournament mode and supports up to 6 players. / R&B does not.


Yes, Rum and Bones does have tournament rules. Rum and Bones also supports multiplayer.


LOAD Heroes can be recruited for any faction / R&B has heroes locked to factions.


Rum and Bones has mercenary heroes that can work for anyone.


LOAD Heroes have dedicated move action / R&B does not.


Yes, it does.

Listen, I'm not going to nitpick; I only responded because I was asked. Just, please, don't insult the intelligence of everyone here and pretend the plagiarism didn't happen.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/29 03:49:33


Post by: Visceral_Mass


Apparently the creators of LOAD forgot to remove a DOTA name from one of the cards: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3035534/xchikyx

Look at the Long Reach power on the bottom of the card.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/30 02:22:33


Post by: Alpharius


Ouch!

That may explain...things here, as this is such a strange campaign:




LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/30 04:51:48


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Archon/Prodos threatens Legal Action against BGG
Quote from Jarek:
" BBG by allowing such actions that also affect our business in general, in fact Archon and Prodos - on this matter we will be searching legal advice as well. Hate, in any form, as presented on this forum in form of accusations without knowing the facts is weak if not illegal."

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1582814/avp-post-ex-employe...


I swear, you can't make this stuff up.

I think the 1st Amendment will prevail, though. If BGG and/or the author of the comments leading up to Jarek's response are in California, they can probably make good use of our anti-SLAPP laws to enjoin Archon/Prodos/Jarek from doing anything stupider than what they're already doing.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/30 17:25:41


Post by: Alpharius


The truth really is stranger than fiction...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/30 18:26:50


Post by: Theophony


Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 08:15:54


Post by: zedmeister


Blimey, the continued haemorrhage of backers and funds can't be sustained at this rate. And I made the mistake of looking through the Kickstarter comments. Toxic is not the word. From the quick scan I had, there's a subset of moronic backers that seem to be haranguing, calling everyone trolls and shouting down anyone who asks any sort of remotely negative question, even innocent enquirers.

Prodos Archon are their usual delightful selves.

What a godawful mess.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 17:17:46


Post by: JohnHwangDD


They lost backers for 7 straight days so far.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 17:52:28


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .


Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.




LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 18:37:09


Post by: warboss


 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .


Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.




But not enough to have shipped out all the outstanding AVP kickstarter orders in a timely fashion along with the retail shipments last year? I suspect that you've lost more money and hair by dragging the avp kickstarter reward fulfillment out so long than if you had just gotten a small buisness loan with the corresponding interest and shipped them out when you first promised alongside the retail copies. It might have seemed like the better decision for the short term but I suspect the long term effects on your company's future profits and reputation have far outweighed those initial cash flow benefits.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 19:01:39


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .


Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.


Let's be very clear that you were not "doxxed", and that using such defamatory, incendiary language to imply illegal action is libelous in and of itself. Unless you have actual proof of being "doxxed" via illegal means, you should retract that statement and language forthwith.

The publishing and release public information about Prodos and/or Archon is clearly in the best public interest, and it is clearly newsworthy, given that Prodos / Archon is asking the public for money, and had deliberately acted to conceal this information. It is entirely reasonable to inquire as to the directors and officers of each entity, along with their legal and financial arrangements. The fact that it's something that you had attempted to hide from the public, that's too bad. The public has a right to know these things - that's why you had to file to set up Prodos / Archon in the first place.

If Prodos / Archon is making enough profits, why isn't it delivering AvP, as promised in Prodos' previous Kickstarter? Why all the lies and deceit?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 21:07:57


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 warboss wrote:
 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
Great, now Prodos/Archon will sue BGG, BGG will counter sue and then Prodos will have reason to say that they can no longer fulfill the KS orders .


Thanks for your comment, however it's worth pointing-out that "getting a legal advice about doxing" is not taking any legal actions ( or "sue" as you enclosed). Thanks.

As for Archon financials, I can assure you that Archon as established company is making enough profit to protect it's rights (if any) in legal actions, if needed.




But not enough to have shipped out all the outstanding AVP kickstarter orders in a timely fashion along with the retail shipments last year? I suspect that you've lost more money and hair by dragging the avp kickstarter reward fulfillment out so long than if you had just gotten a small buisness loan with the corresponding interest and shipped them out when you first promised alongside the retail copies. It might have seemed like the better decision for the short term but I suspect the long term effects on your company's future profits and reputation have far outweighed those initial cash flow benefits.


We are drifting away from the main topic, however let me maybe explain a bit.

Hi there, thanks for your question, however please note that Archon is a separate financially business entity to Prodos. Please google for more understanding definition of LTD company. (both Archon and Prodos are LTD).

Financially both businesses are not linked at all and legally cannot be.

Prodos is fulfilling KS from it's sales profit on it's products.

Prodos, as per it's financial statement is also doing fine, thus is able to fund shipping, gradually.

If you are AVP KS backer, and you have not received anything/awaiting for next wave, I would suggest to email Prodos or join "AvP:THB Backers only" Facebook forum, Prodos team is very active there ,sorting out all customer queries.

Also, please check your data in pledge manager as there is still 241 backers that have missing names and surnames for shipping -if this is the case, I would suggest to update it and bet in touch with Prodos.

If you are not AvP backer, please follow up official updates for more information, any suggestions regarding this topic please send to Prodos email.

Thanks, I hope we can come back to the topic of LOAD.

Here is the latest update : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1591030

and 2 Epic miniatures revealed :














[Thumb - 1.jpg]
[Thumb - 2.jpg]


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 21:22:47


Post by: JohnHwangDD


The main topic is whether Prodos / Archos officers, directors and staff can be trusted to fulfill LOAD, given their demonstrated failure to do so with AvP.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:17:38


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The main topic is whether Prodos / Archos officers, directors and staff can be trusted to fulfill LOAD, given their demonstrated failure to do so with AvP.


Hi there, you have not taken in consideration, that Archon alone managed to fulfill/help out to deliver 12 KS, with almost 300k miniatures manufactured for market last year.

AvP KS is much more complicated that it seems to be. It's a licence product, that is fully dependent as well on 3rd party.

The fact number two : prototype of AvP core game was delivered for approval in September 2014 and the game without any changes was approved in ... July of 2015, this fact should, at least give you an idea of the process Prodos needed to go through (11 months). During that time backers have been informed very well about delay, one sided if I may add.

Anyhow, as stated above if you are a KS backer please send me PM with you emial address used for KS pledge manager, and I will make sure that Prodos team will check it up for you.

Here are some examples of companies that have used Archon's services: Ninja Division, Mantic Games, Warlords Gates of Antares, TitanForge, MicroArt Studio, White Dragon Miniatures, Riverhorse, Steamforged Games, Freebooter Minatures, Infamy Miniatures, Age of Tyrants, Rycerze pustkowi, Shadowrun, Demigods Evolution, Norsgard, Miniature 13, Perditions Mouth, Wargamer, Hysterical Games, Awaken Realms, Troll Trader, Armoured Syndicate, Fregged Empire, Collision, hint The Game, Modiphious, Dungeon Saga, Apollo, Broken Contract.

Archon is capable to deliver not only it's own projects but several others as well, that's not arguable fact bases on projects creators testimonies.









LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:20:33


Post by: RiTides


The topic of this thread is the Load Board game, and everything related to that... what's being discussed above is fine of course, but just pointing out that people can talk about whatever aspect of the game and company they like (positive or negative!). Personally speaking, I'd rather talk about the game but again, the above is fair game, particularly since WZR is engaging on it.

Regarding the above 3d prints, any chance you guys could share what machine they were printed on? Really incredible detail and I love the concepts... the top model reminds me of Ysala and Darkness in a different form, and I always craved that model (cursed limited runs...).



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:24:33


Post by: Gomezaddams


So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.

Also, regarding the above list of companies, very few were willing to name you as the manufacturer. I asked several of those at Salute directly - it was telling that when they reference yourselves they stated that it was always in the context of you being the cheapest, but that the quality control was fairly poor. Those that were asked also stated that they would go elsewhere if given an option, given the AVP situation. So I can see now where your asking clients not to divulge who there manufacturing partners are.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:28:46


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.



Hi there here is full information about our company : Archon sp. z o o, street: Warsztatowa 8, post code: 64-920, City: Pila, VAT: 764-266-64-25. and full registration, from Polish company check : http://www.krs-online.com.pl/archon-sp-z-o-o-krs-1325062.html


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:29:09


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.


For that, you should go to boardgamegeek.com... They will give you the accurate, unbiased information - unlike some other parties which might only want your money...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:33:29


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 RiTides wrote:
The topic of this thread is the Load Board game, and everything related to that... what's being discussed above is fine of course, but just pointing out that people can talk about whatever aspect of the game and company they like (positive or negative!). Personally speaking, I'd rather talk about the game but again, the above is fair game, particularly since WZR is engaging on it.

Regarding the above 3d prints, any chance you guys could share what machine they were printed on? Really incredible detail and I love the concepts... the top model reminds me of Ysala and Darkness in a different form, and I always craved that model (cursed limited runs...).



Hi there, we are using modified prefactory 4 (ERM) , manufacturer is Envisiontec, resin used is also not stock a premix that works in our environment (low air humidity)... it took us almost 8 months to understand that machine and to get un-burned or damaged 3d prints, which is the biggest issues with Prefactory machines.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.


For that, you should go to boardgamegeek.com... They will give you the accurate, unbiased information - unlike some other parties which might only want your money...


..... all information is provided above your post, also, a reiminder : I am missing PM with your pledge manager KS emial address, thanks


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/05/31 22:42:20


Post by: RiTides


Thanks for the info on the 3d printer, much appreciated!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 09:58:06


Post by: richred_uk


Could you confirm if these pictures are 3D prints as RiTides refers to them or if they are renders/ CGI? Thanks:





LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 12:45:58


Post by: RiTides


I see in the update text that you could be right, they say they've produced 3D prints of them, but not that these pictures are the prints. So, that may have just been my misunderstanding if these aren't prints (so hard to tell these days!).

Obviously, their printing process has worked well for the production minis they have shown, so if these aren't prints it would be cool to see the prints (but I still can't tell from looking at this picture one way or the other)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 12:50:51


Post by: richred_uk


 RiTides wrote:
(but I still can't tell from looking at this picture one way or the other)


Exactly this - if they are renders, they are excellent at looking life like - especially the top one, the 2 things that make me think render are the reflections, and the rocks/ boulders on the bottom one, but I wouldn't swear to them being renders.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 12:58:05


Post by: Necros


They look like 3D renders to me.. however, the Envisiontec printer they are using is pretty much the best you can get for minis as far as I know, so I'd expect the prints to look just like that anyway.

I think I like the standard Eli Ironsmith better for some reason, but the epic vashara looks great


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 13:19:27


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 Necros wrote:
They look like 3D renders to me.. however, the Envisiontec printer they are using is pretty much the best you can get for minis as far as I know, so I'd expect the prints to look just like that anyway.

I think I like the standard Eli Ironsmith better for some reason, but the epic vashara looks great


they are 3d pirnts, thanks


[Thumb - IMG_20160601_135331.jpg]


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 13:23:49


Post by: RiTides


Wicked, thank you . Those look fantastic!

And now you're just making it confusing with all the other projects out there using renders when your lightbox pics look so much like them


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 13:25:30


Post by: Necros


Well then wow they look really great


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 13:54:43


Post by: TheWaspinator


Wow. If I was going to choose a term to describe threatening legal action over the message board writings of your primary potential audience, I would go with "public relations minefield".


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 15:04:56


Post by: richred_uk


That's pretty stunning 3D printing *hides screen from R&D Department*


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 22:11:27


Post by: Theophony


Prodos should look to Puppets War (another polish miniature company) to see how to change a toxic image around. They were in the same spot about 2 years ago, but now are well liked amongst gamers. Their interaction with the community is soooo much better and the public relations nightmare they had is a thing of the past. Also bring a polish company maybe they can enlighten Prodos as to where they are making the communications mistakes that could very well just be a cultural difference.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 22:16:03


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:



Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 23:03:45


Post by: Prestor Jon


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:
Spoiler:


Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.



That seems a tad hyperbolic. Definitely a worrisome trend but they've only lost ~150 backers and still have ~1700 backers so the KS is still likely to be "successful."


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 23:25:25


Post by: Theophony


No doubt the KS will be successful, but the damage is done and just think how great the success would have been if they hadn't killed their image.

@john, I wasn't saying the culture was full of liars and such, but the communications was terrible which puppets war also had poor communications to begin with but now they have solved their customer service problems and are very community oriented. It might be a cultural thing to not public ally admit any issues and try to dig themselves out of a whole. I know my parents generation (70 year olds) don't talk about certain issues and people I work with from other countries each have their own comfort levels of what they will discuss. That's why I suggested puppets wars specifically because they had similar issues originally but they have turned it around and both are polish companies, so might have a similar perspective.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 23:33:45


Post by: warboss


Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/01 23:41:23


Post by: Alpharius


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Spoiler:
It's a cultural thing to lie and cheat and deceive? Sorry, no, not buying it.

And neither are a lot of former backers:



Like rats fleeing a sinking ship.



While I think I know what you're aiming for there, I don't think that's really the phrase you're meaning to use here!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 00:04:20


Post by: JohnHwangDD


@Theop - I was confused by what you were getting at. Sorry, for my confusion.
____

 warboss wrote:
Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).


BGG is seeing the totals fall as backers leave, then suddenly boost. A drop in the dollar total is highly-visible, and will raise a lot more concerns than a drop in the backer count. BGG speculates that the funding total is being artificially propped up by Prodos "phantom" painted pledges, that Prodos is willing to pay the x% fee to KS, etc. when the project funds. A few $k in extra fees to prevent a visible drop keeps more of the backers from panicking and accelerating the collapse even further.

If not for Prodos' phantom pledgers, the total would be $205k instead of $220k, and Prodos would be playing defense to keep it from falling under $200k.

The confusing claims of Polish Consumer Protection Law are a similar attempt to prevent collapse. I like that Prodos is forgetting that their KS is to their American shell company, and already covered by American Consumer Protection Law. But I guess they don't want to go down that road.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 00:33:41


Post by: RiTides


That's a lot of speculation... did they take into account the fact that painted pledge levels were added? That corresponded with when the dollar values on days started being positive again despite backer losses, which makes sense since a painted pledge is Much more expensive.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 00:39:45


Post by: JohnHwangDD


BGG notes that it's an interesting coincidence that the painted pledges exactly match the losses from backers leaving.

And this is why:
Spoiler:

If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.

OTOH, if they bump it over $225k, then the legit backers are going to expect another SG to be delivered.

So the total is going to stay in the $215-225k range pretty much indefinitely.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 03:16:57


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.
I was pretty sure there was a post that said if a SG was unlocked, it was going to stay unlocked even if the total dipped.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 07:07:54


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Theop - I was confused by what you were getting at. Sorry, for my confusion.
____

 warboss wrote:
Yup, and their funding total has pretty much stayed the same as it was on the 24th when the news broke. Either the remaining majority of backers are upping their pledge or the lost pledgers are mostly folks at $1 scared off by the news or those who just joined to post a few comments. It's more like a ship dead in the water rather than actually sinking. While the momentum has definitely been lost, I don't think there is any risk of the project backsliding enough to risk defunding (assuming the original funding goal was remotely close to the real goal needed).


BGG is seeing the totals fall as backers leave, then suddenly boost. A drop in the dollar total is highly-visible, and will raise a lot more concerns than a drop in the backer count. BGG speculates that the funding total is being artificially propped up by Prodos "phantom" painted pledges, that Prodos is willing to pay the x% fee to KS, etc. when the project funds. A few $k in extra fees to prevent a visible drop keeps more of the backers from panicking and accelerating the collapse even further.

If not for Prodos' phantom pledgers, the total would be $205k instead of $220k, and Prodos would be playing defense to keep it from falling under $200k.

The confusing claims of Polish Consumer Protection Law are a similar attempt to prevent collapse. I like that Prodos is forgetting that their KS is to their American shell company, and already covered by American Consumer Protection Law. But I guess they don't want to go down that road.



Hi there, thanks for your comments,

1) Origin of Customer Protection Act is Poland as the Invoice (contract) will be issued from Archon to each backer post pledge manager. Kickstarter is not providing any invoice to backers because they would be then accounted for not-delivering.

Invoice is a proof of payment. Invoice is an itemized bill for goods sold or services provided, containing individual prices, the total charge, and the terms.

2) The increase in value is accounted by 3 factors : 1. painted pledges, 2. backers moving from 99 USD pledge to Epic once we have revealed epic models (140+ USD difference). 3) Dropping 1 USD pledgers (47).






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dark Severance wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the total falls below $215k, then Prodos has to unwind that SG, and backers aren't going to like that one bit.
I was pretty sure there was a post that said if a SG was unlocked, it was going to stay unlocked even if the total dipped.


That's correct.

Thanks


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 07:33:45


Post by: TheWaspinator


Uh, no. If you do mail order to customers in the US from Poland, reciprocity means you can be sued under both sets of laws, such as consumer protection laws.

https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=35820


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 11:30:23


Post by: CptJake


 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

1) Origin of Customer Protection Act is Poland as the Invoice (contract) will be issued from Archon to each backer post pledge manager. Kickstarter is not providing any invoice to backers because they would be then accounted for not-delivering.

Invoice is a proof of payment. Invoice is an itemized bill for goods sold or services provided, containing individual prices, the total charge, and the terms.


Not true at all. Every KS I've participated in I get an email from KS stating:

Great news!
Thanks to you and XXX others, "NAME OF KS PROJECT" has been successfully funded. Your pledge has been charged, funds will soon be transferred to the creator, and they’ll begin working on their project.


If that is not 'proof of payment' I do not know what is. No one pays Prodos/Archon at the end of this BUT KS. The backers' money is collected by KS.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 13:38:48


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


Edited.

Thanks.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 16:58:37


Post by: JohnHwangDD


As expected, more backers dropped:


But the total didn't really change:

Looks like Prodos "bought" a 6th $499 pledge to prop the total up.

I wonder how many backers have dropped from $99+ down to $1. The last 48 hours are going to be interesting, that's for sure.
____

If we do the math, it's 169 backers dropped.

If we look at the first couple big drops before Prodos started propping things up, they should have lost $136 per pledge for a total drop of $23k.

The true total should be under $200k, not holding at $222k...

If I were backing this dumpster fire, I'd declare shenanigans!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 17:17:52


Post by: Nostromodamus


Any actual evidence that Prodos is the one "buying" the pledges to keep the total level? Or is it all just theory from those who dislike the company?

Because from what I can see it could very well be explained by backers switching to or otherwise taking painted pledges, and the backer total dropping due to $1 people deciding against it.

I have no vested interest one way or another, but saying Prodos is fiddling the numbers when the provided "evidence" can just as easily be attributed to backer behavior doesn't seem right, no matter how much you dislike the company.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 17:18:29


Post by: Artemis Black


 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

1) Origin of Customer Protection Act is Poland as the Invoice (contract) will be issued from Archon to each backer post pledge manager. Kickstarter is not providing any invoice to backers because they would be then accounted for not-delivering.

Invoice is a proof of payment. Invoice is an itemized bill for goods sold or services provided, containing individual prices, the total charge, and the terms.


What?

Warzone Resurrection / Archon / Prodos / Whoever wrote:As a manufacturer we have an access to Custom clearance system ECS. It means that every parcel we are shipping out is custom cleared by us in Poland. To explain in depth, 35% of the cost of shipping a parcel outside EU by courier like UPS for instance, is cost of custom clearance, we don’t have this costs as we do all the paperwork work by our self.


Also, what?

Normally I'm mocking you but I'm genuinely interested in what the hell you're on about in both of these.

.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 17:20:26


Post by: CptJake


 Nostromodamus wrote:
Any actual evidence that Prodos is the one "buying" the pledges to keep the total level? Or is it all just theory from those who dislike the company?

Because from what I can see it could very well be explained by backers switching to or otherwise taking painted pledges, and the backer total dropping due to $1 people deciding against it.

I have no vested interest one way or another, but saying Prodos is fiddling the numbers when the provided "evidence" can just as easily be attributed to backer behavior doesn't seem right, no matter how much you dislike the company.


It is most easily attributed to backers changing pledges. The painted pledge is a phenomenal deal and others are switching to the pledge with the 'epic' figures.

And I m clearly NOT a Prodos fan.

EDIT: From BGG, someone seems to have 'done the math':

12 backers at $999... each of which covers 9 backers leaving from the early bird $100 pledge level = 108 backers.

5 backers at $499... each of which covers 4 backers leaving = 20 backers

Quite a few moving from $99 pledge to epic pledge at $250 which covers 1.5 backers leaving each

They have lost about 160 backers... of which some are assuredly $1 pledges (on a dakka post Archon said 47)... so lets say 115 actual backers lost.... of which all are covered just by the painted pledges.


https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1583335/seven-day-exodus-backers-yet-funding-still-rising/page/3


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 17:21:34


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


It is, however pretty telling about the sort of backers that are dropping,

in general they look to be those who were in for the chance to moan at Prodos (once they knew they were involved), get the updates, find out about the mechanics or otherwise 'contribute' to the chat,

they're not the core support pledging $99 for the game (or more for the painted stuff), although a few of these are dropping too

so while it looks bad on kicktraq, it's not the disaster some other projects have hit where the people actually funding it started to leave (eg Thon)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 17:32:58


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Nostromodamus wrote:
Any actual evidence that Prodos is the one "buying" the pledges to keep the total level? Or is it all just theory from those who dislike the company?

Because from what I can see it could very well be explained by backers switching to or otherwise taking painted pledges, and the backer total dropping due to $1 people deciding against it.

I have no vested interest one way or another, but saying Prodos is fiddling the numbers when the provided "evidence" can just as easily be attributed to backer behavior doesn't seem right, no matter how much you dislike the company.


While that is what Prodos claims, it is clear that they are lying. Again. As usual.

If you do the math, the total should have dropped by $23k. The 16 painted pledges amount to an increase of 6x +$399 + $12x +$899 = +$13.2k total. There is an extra $10k pledged that cannot be explained by Prodos' claims. Ergo, they are lying. Just like they lied about who was running the campaign. Just like they lie about Polish Consumer Protection Law.

Hey, Prodos - how come Polish Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Huh? How come American Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Where are those refunds that AvP backers requested and didn't get?

Anyhow, you are free to believe what you like, but the numbers just don't add up, even if you pretend that Prodos is telling the truth. Go add up the pledge values right now, and toss a buck for each backer that doesn't have a pledge. You should get $190k, not $222k - there is $32k floating around that cannot be explained.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 18:04:17


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


A fair number of people get more than one copy of a game, either as part of a group to save postage (or because only one plays on KS), because they just want more than a single copy or to try and re-sell

and I'm sure there are some with no pledge level who have more than $1 there to hedge against a pledge level they intend to get before the end

(or even just to donate a bit more to a project they want to succeed, although I admit it's not so likely here)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 18:21:05


Post by: JohnHwangDD


That is all accounted for in the big drops on 5/24 and 5/26, averaging $136 per pledge.

Or are you saying that the remaining backers are going to spend more on a failing project?

No. The most rational course of action is to limit risk, going down to a minimal pledge, or a $1 placeholder, or dropping and waiting for late backer / pledge manager access.

But as I said, the final 48 will be interesting.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 18:34:34


Post by: CptJake


It is hard to call a 700% + funded project 'failing'.

Jarek/Prodos/Archon have stated that because they are doing all the figure production in house there is very little risk. Many backers believe this. The more expensive pledges (with the epic figures or the painted sets) are darned good value if you believe this. To these backers there is little risk, and they are not bailing out, they are sticking with the expensive pledges.

Unless KS pulls the project, the project is likely to fund at over 700%. That won't meet anyone's reasonable definition of 'failure'.

Now, how they (Jarek/Prodos/Archon) handle the production and delivery after KS passes off the funding is what is going to matter, and again, there are many (over 1k) backers that have faith it will all work out.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 18:39:36


Post by: RiTides


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No. The most rational course of action is to limit risk

I've already posted previously about this in the thread, but I don't agree with you that there is more risk in this project than others. As I noted, I only upped my pledge after the creators were revealed - because I have seen way too many "first time creators" struggle through things just like what Prodos did with their first projects, and even much worse when they are outsourcing production.

Project Elite, Torn Armor, and Total Extinction - Battle for Karnak are just a few that come to mind... outsourcing production is much riskier than a company, even if they're one many people dislike based on their early projects, who:

1. Have almost all the models already created
2. Have a proven production process that they are completing in-house
3. Have a lot of incentive to deliver

That last one is important to me. Of course, it's possible that Archon wants to burn their name to the ground right along with what has been happening to Prodos... but they are known in the industry, and provide models to many companies. Why in the world would they go to all this effort just to rip people off? It's similar to Mierce emerging from Maelstrom Games in some ways, except that Prodos is actually continuing to deliver to their customers (unlike Maelstrom completely cutting off customers suddenly and only honoring those who had paid for models of the line they were taking forward as Mierce). I bring up that example, because I was heartily opposed to Mierce at the beginning - but in hindsight, what did they have to gain by "starting anew" only to rip off more people?

Similarly, I think Archon is trying their hardest to make good here, and it's an attractive product. People who are opposing the campaign on principle are making it actually more likely that former backers of other projects will have issues, imo... whereas if this does decently well, it can only help with the fact that Archon can move forward with its own products (and since there is some overlap in personnel seemingly, it keeps the lights on so that Prodos can keep fulfilling their obligations). Opposing it really strongly seems to me to be putting an ideal over a practical reality... Archon is going to continue making miniatures for other companies regardless, but this campaign will likely help everybody who was involved with Prodos before, too. Not directly from the funding - but it'd be hard to imagine it could hurt.

Again, intent is important, and trajectory - an opposite example would be Defiance Games, who defrauded people badly, then ran a one-off campaign to defraud even more people, because they had no other obligations or income coming in from the industry. Archon seemingly has a lot of income to lose if they burn their reputation within the industry, and so I feel pretty confident that they will deliver well here. It is always a risk on Kickstarter - but the risk here is much lower than elsewhere, in my opinion (and speaking mostly as someone who is after the minis).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:06:50


Post by: Dark Severance


There were 1884 ($223,603) backers before backers started to drop. At the time of this post there are 1717 ($223,014) backers. Kicktraq does shows a loss of 169 backers but we can only guess how many are at what pledges. We know there were at least quite a few at $1 to comment. They could have also gone in at a high amount to comment and then dropped as well. Those are things we don't know. Since $1 isn't a pledge level, we don't actually get to see how many are sitting at that level.

What Kicktraq doesn't factor or show is shipping and they inflate true totals. For example looking at the current list

1308 backers $99 ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $145188 - $162192
167 backers $99 ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $16533 - $20708
117 backers $249 ($261 US, $274 RoW) - $30537 - $32058
6 backers $499 ($517 US, $530 RoW) - $3102 - $3180
9 backers $999 ($1017 US, $1030 RoW) - $9153 - $9270

1607 backers, which means at least 110 are most likely $1 pledges. - $204,623 US - $227,518 RoW

Without actually tracking the backer totals for each pledge, the total backers and amount isn't a lot of help. The difference is you assume all backers are in the US (which we know isn't true) is $18,501. That is just based on totaling up base pledge amounts, not accounting for additional pledge dollars. If people in the comments are assumed telling the truth, quite a few have added additional dollars for Epic miniatures and add-ons.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Any actual evidence that Prodos is the one "buying" the pledges to keep the total level? Or is it all just theory from those who dislike the company?
There is not any actual evidence that Prodos is "buying" pledges or fluctuating. It is a believed theory because some people see backers loss but the campaign is back to where it was before they started losing. It doesn't take in account how many $1 pledges they are that started to drop as well vs real pledges. It doesn't make sense to buy pledges either, at least I haven't heard a good reason to support it yet.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:09:39


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I say, a skunk doesn't change its stripes.

Good luck to any of you who pledged.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:14:25


Post by: warboss


 CptJake wrote:
Unless KS pulls the project, the project is likely to fund at over 700%. That won't meet anyone's reasonable definition of 'failure'.


I would point out that AVP funded at 1083% and the cummulative result years later can reasonably be called a failure.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game/

Funding definitely doesn't automatically equate to long term or retail success (the opposite of failure) as evidenced by Archon's I mean Prodos' own AVP as well as other (in)famous projects like Robotech Tactics. I realize you're talking specifically about the KS campaign but figured I'd stress that more important ultimate end goal.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:16:14


Post by: JohnHwangDD


@Warboss - If you check, there is no AvP project on Kickstarter...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:25:35


Post by: warboss


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Warboss - If you check, there is no AvP project on Kickstarter...


No gak, Sherlock. That's why I linked to kicktraq instead.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:26:40


Post by: CptJake


 warboss wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Unless KS pulls the project, the project is likely to fund at over 700%. That won't meet anyone's reasonable definition of 'failure'.


I would point out that AVP funded at 1083% and the cummulative result years later can reasonably be called a failure.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game/

Funding definitely doesn't automatically equate to long term or retail success (the opposite of failure) as evidenced by Archon's I mean Prodos' own AVP as well as other (in)famous projects like Robotech Tactics. I realize you're talking specifically about the KS campaign but figured I'd stress that more important ultimate end goal.



Which is why my last sentence, which you cut out, is pretty relevant:


Now, how they (Jarek/Prodos/Archon) handle the production and delivery after KS passes off the funding is what is going to matter, and again, there are many (over 1k) backers that have faith it will all work out.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:35:17


Post by: MaxT


 CptJake wrote:
It is hard to call a 700% + funded project 'failing'.

Jarek/Prodos/Archon have stated that because they are doing all the figure production in house there is very little risk. Many backers believe this. The more expensive pledges (with the epic figures or the painted sets) are darned good value if you believe this. To these backers there is little risk, and they are not bailing out, they are sticking with the expensive pledges.

Unless KS pulls the project, the project is likely to fund at over 700%. That won't meet anyone's reasonable definition of 'failure'.

Now, how they (Jarek/Prodos/Archon) handle the production and delivery after KS passes off the funding is what is going to matter, and again, there are many (over 1k) backers that have faith it will all work out.


Theres also a question of expectations and funding requirements for proper companies. $200k for a little start up is fantastic. $200k for a large company doesn't pay the electricity bill. Prodos wants to be in the realm of CMON funding at the least. Steamforged just got well over $5 million in pledges. When your pledges are a magnitude less than your effective competition it doesn't look like a success.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 19:58:05


Post by: Warzone Resurrection


I would like to point out that Archon is not only miniatures company. Archon's main source of income is in manufacturing of bespoke automotive parts for well known brands.

Just to give you an idea of what process I am talking about (not out photo, nda, but process is the same)

We love board and war games! This is why we are introducing uni-cast to miniatures market. There are some other major goals for us as manufacturer to achieve with LOAD KS: for instance delivery on time proving capability of our process to our customers and partners.


Thanks.

[Thumb - injection_mold.jpg]
[Thumb - bespoke part.jpg]


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 20:02:54


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Ergo, they are lying. Just like they lied about who was running the campaign. Just like they lie about Polish Consumer Protection Law.

Hey, Prodos - how come Polish Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Huh? How come American Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Where are those refunds that AvP backers requested and didn't get?


I see that Prodos dropped by, but somehow missed my bolded question above...

Prodos - why should we believe you now, when you lied to all of the AvP backers?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 20:28:43


Post by: CptJake


I LOVE seeing the Prodos logo representing the Archon work in the above image.

Yet when it is convenient for Jarek and crew we must believe they are completely separate entities.

Good stuff.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 20:29:48


Post by: Gomezaddams


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Gomezaddams wrote:
So I've been trying to find some information regarding Archon, Archon Ltd, Archon games Ltd (you get the idea) but... aside from whats been said here nothing.

So... whats the actual name, and wheres the company held? Is it a limited company in its own right, or is it an arm of Prodos Ltd? I can't image its a limited UK company because theres no contact details or addresses on the website.

And out of curiosity, whats Wastefall Games? This seems to be another company using the UK postbox address Prodos uses but again, no actual details.


For that, you should go to boardgamegeek.com... They will give you the accurate, unbiased information - unlike some other parties which might only want your money...



..... all information is provided above your post, also, a reiminder : I am missing PM with your pledge manager KS emial address, thanks


Are you refering to my pledge?

If you are that really does show what fantastic attention to detail you guys pay. I sold this pledge about a year ago after trying for months to get a refund. I'm still owed £5 by the way from when I submitted my pledge during the testing phase. I've never EVER had a response about that.

And you still havent responded to my question regarding Wastefall games.

Prodos - attention to detail is are mide nam


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 21:24:54


Post by: ced1106


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I say, a skunk doesn't change its stripes.


Kevin Siembieda of Palladium.

Paolo Parente of DUST Tactics.

Dionysius of GameZone.

Erik Chevalier of Forking Path.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RiTides wrote:
I've already posted previously about this in the thread, but I don't agree with you that there is more risk in this project than others. As I noted, I only upped my pledge after the creators were revealed - because I have seen way too many "first time creators" struggle through things just like what Prodos did with their first projects, and even much worse when they are outsourcing production.


We all have different tolerances for risk.

Myself, I avoid "First Created" projects, or at least start researching the company more heavily than I would one with prior KS experience. Frex, With Monolith, I checked every non-artist name affiliated with the project, even the name of the BGG user who posted image pictures for the Conan database entry. Prodos / Archon is unusual in that most creators with poor reputations don't try for a second KS. Some KS backers do not fund a project from a creator until they receive their rewards, which is another way of asking a creator to prove themselves that they can fulfill before a backer will pledge for their next project (I should have done this myself with one of my KS!).

Still, I hope with LOAD, Prodos will prove the nay-sayers wrong and fulfill their backers as well as they cast their miniatures. While I can only look back at history, that doesn't mean there's no future.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/02 23:03:47


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
prodos what's happening with the clear predators?

Can you answer somewhere?

When will I get them?
And all the other stuff you owe the AVP backers?

...

LOAD - Customers this is what you can expect in 5 days time.
Prodos take your money and shut down communications.
3 years later you wonder what happened???

Save your money, buy at retail.
In our experience you will get your miniatures cheaper and quicker than backers.

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 03:54:18


Post by: TheWaspinator


 CptJake wrote:
I LOVE seeing the Prodos logo representing the Archon work in the above image.

Yet when it is convenient for Jarek and crew we must believe they are completely separate entities.

Good stuff.

Yeah, the idea that they are at all independent companies is a pretty laughable lie.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 06:57:39


Post by: MaxT


 TheWaspinator wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I LOVE seeing the Prodos logo representing the Archon work in the above image.

Yet when it is convenient for Jarek and crew we must believe they are completely separate entities.

Good stuff.

Yeah, the idea that they are at all independent companies is a pretty laughable lie.


Legally it's a fact, not a lie.

But as it's the same people running things, don't expect wildly different outcomes and results. After all, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 07:01:01


Post by: MaxZ


MaxT wrote:
 TheWaspinator wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I LOVE seeing the Prodos logo representing the Archon work in the above image.

Yet when it is convenient for Jarek and crew we must believe they are completely separate entities.

Good stuff.

Yeah, the idea that they are at all independent companies is a pretty laughable lie.


Legally it's a fact, not a lie.

But as it's the same people running things, don't expect wildly different outcomes and results. After all, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.


Hi MaxT. This is MaxZ. It sems I am only a few posts behind you.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 07:29:14


Post by: MaxT


Hi MaxZ !

(gets further ahead)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 12:59:37


Post by: Gomezaddams


Minor correction to my above statement. It was 18 months ago that I sold my pledge. I hope that poor sods got his pledge


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/03 22:53:33


Post by: JoeRugby


 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
prodos what's happening with the clear predators?

Can you answer somewhere?

When will I get them?
And all the other stuff you owe the AVP backers?

...

LOAD - Customers this is what you can expect in 5 days time.
Prodos take your money and shut down communications.
3 years later you wonder what happened???

Save your money, buy at retail.
In our experience you will get your miniatures cheaper and quicker than backers.

Panic...


Hi doors I would like Panic to get an answer to this to

Also as Panic said Fyi bAckers


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 17:25:31


Post by: Shadow Walker


From BGG: Prodos/Archon are sending 'please come back' messages to backers that dropped their pledges. Desperation?

Hi,
Thank you for once considering being backer of LOAD!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...
We came a long way since start of the campaign and would like to invite you to take another look. All stretch goals in the game are now unlocked and you are offered a great deal with a game containing a lot of miniatures of great quality at affordable price.
If you want to see how the game looks, here is a video done by Undead Viking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch…
Our backer AliceXVI organized a few games of LOAD via Tabletop Simulator and streamed it on her Twitch account Bubbalubber. You can check the games played here:
https://www.twitch.tv/bubbalubber/v/69891112
https://www.twitch.tv/bubbalubber/v/69940653
LOAD is offered in 7 different languages and those who pledge will be given option during Pledge Manager to choose the language they prefer.
Hope to see you again as backer of LOAD!
Thank you!
Archon


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 17:49:26


Post by: Nostromodamus


I've been part of several projects that havie issued "please come back!" or "why did you leave?" messages.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 17:50:43


Post by: BigDaddio


This actually happens with plenty of KS projects. I have dropped out of a few (simply due to money issues or coming to my senses, lol) and have gotten emails either asking why I left or trying to lure me back in. I think Mantic has even done this, but I'm not certain.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 17:53:27


Post by: Alpharius


It is easy to see why they're sending those messages out:




It will be interesting to see if it works!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 18:03:23


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Its a sensible move if you think you can (or have already) fix the issues with your campaign,

for example if you've put up a rule book download, or a detailed gameplay video that people have been asking for,

or if you've unlocked that faction everybody wanted but you'd put as a late stretch and hoped to use to drive revenue at the end of the campaign

but I think it's not going to work here as most of those dropping are probably those with issues with the company making the game


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 18:06:08


Post by: CptJake


Yeah, I dropped because Jerek/Prodos were involved. Them giving every stretch goal doesn't make up for the initial deception and continued dishonesty.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 18:11:42


Post by: zedmeister


There may be another factor here as well, beyond the Prodos debacle. And that is, this is yet another fairly well presented but nondescript board game with a stack of renders. I've lost count on the amount of these that have been punted with varying degrees of success. With a new CMON Kickstarter on the horizon, people look at this, the drama, the mound of unpainted miniatures, the generic blandness and think; sod it, I'm out...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 19:36:56


Post by: JohnHwangDD


The total dropped below $220k!

The Stretch Goals no longer reference dollar amounts as the previous "$235k" goal is now unlocked for no obvious reason.

But yeah, very unlikely that backers return - it's not a value thing. It's a corporate trust and ethics thing, and no amount of unlocked Stretch Goals can change that.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 20:19:54


Post by: RiTides


Zed - There are physical final minis shown for quite a lot of the models here (just FYI since you mentioned renders).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 20:32:13


Post by: zedmeister


 RiTides wrote:
Zed - There are physical final minis shown for quite a lot of the models here (just FYI since you mentioned renders).


So there is. They look nice enough, but I stand by my statement. As for me? I've got a humongous pile that I'll never ever paint and I look at this and think; "Do I really need more games or another range of miniatures"? The answer is no. At the risk of sidetracking, I've been doing a colossal thinning of my collection this last year. I've binned Sedition Wars, despite being a fan, lots of my GW specialist games collection has gone, 40k projects have been given the boot, Oldhammer projects, dropzone commander went and I've now decided to sell off kingdom death. That leaves me with some 40k, 30k, Darklands and space for the redone specialist games. It's been liberating and my unpainted pile doesn't demoralise me anywhere near as much as before! Er, anyway, sorry slight sidetrack there...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/04 21:49:13


Post by: ced1106


They showed physical models for AvP at a trade show back in 2013 and some backers don't have Wave 1 yet. LOAD backers are also voting on Epic Models (?), which are only at the concept art stage.

Considering that Prodos isn't willing to use funds from their non-KS projects to ship AvP product, how do we know that $220K will be enough to fund LOAD -- including the SG's that were supposed to be unlocked at higher funding levels?

22% of project money is for profit / backup margin. but that was for the project before the free SG's and paint services. Will this be enough? (EDIT: Cost breakdowns are based on 1000 backers.)

I don't have as much budget for the hobby as others, so I compare risks among different projects then decide where to pledge my money. Nowadays, I can find more easily find projects by KS creators with experience fulfilling projects (eg. CMON, Stonemaier Games, Johnny Lauck) , so don't have to pledge on riskier projects for my KS fix. I've skipped many "must have" KS projects, only to find another one that wants my money. If LOAD succeeds and backers are happy, I'm sure Prodos / Archon will come back to us asking for money and offering another set of well-sculpted miniatures -- and I can pick up LOAD retail at the OLGS discount.

Spoiler:

Picture on DakkaDakka from 2013/10/25 15:58:15






LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 06:52:07


Post by: TheWaspinator


MaxT wrote:
 TheWaspinator wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
I LOVE seeing the Prodos logo representing the Archon work in the above image.

Yet when it is convenient for Jarek and crew we must believe they are completely separate entities.

Good stuff.

Yeah, the idea that they are at all independent companies is a pretty laughable lie.


Legally it's a fact, not a lie.

But as it's the same people running things, don't expect wildly different outcomes and results. After all, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.

Fair enough, they are separate companies from a legal perspective. From a practical perspective, though? One has heavy ownership of the other, they apparently have employees who work for both, and the same forum account is being used as the mouthpiece to promote both on this forum. The practical distinction is questionable.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 14:20:22


Post by: biggusdoggus


 TheWaspinator wrote:

Legally it's a fact, not a lie.

But as it's the same people running things, don't expect wildly different outcomes and results. After all, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.
Fair enough, they are separate companies from a legal perspective. From a practical perspective, though? One has heavy ownership of the other, they apparently have employees who work for both, and the same forum account is being used as the mouthpiece to promote both on this forum. The practical distinction is questionable.


You're not wrong- legally Archon and Prodos are separate entities.

Jarek and his business partner Michal own Prodos with Jarek being the majority shareholder. He (Jarek) has been (with the exception of his partner Agata who handles replacement parts) pretty much the only voice of Prodos since Mark Rapson resigned to run his own company Word Forge Games about a year ago.

The only person speaking on behalf of Archon also appear to be Jarek. He doesn't own Archon though, he "just" works there. The company is owned by his father (with the other major shareholders being, I think, Michal's mother AND Prodos - ie effectively Jarek and Michal.

So yes they are legally separate,

but absolutely they need to be considered to be the same company in terms of who's running them, and therefore likely how they will be run. Sure the separation probably means Archon can't pay off Prodos debts or visa versa, but to be honest, it's pretty easy to transfer assets between companies when you control both. Heh, it's already possibly happening - Prodos had 30 odd employees according to Jarek during the AvP kickstarter. Now they have 4 apparently. Meanwhile Archon now has - you guessed it - 30 employees. In addition both Prodos and then Archon have laid claim to owning the Unicast technology.



So we have a kickstarter launched by a company called LOAD Board Game based in Chicago (no such company exists) run by Mihajlo Vlaskovic (according to google, a waiter and taxi driver) who apparently runs CritOnHitGames in Chicago - a company created as a limited liability company (ie they'll be next to impossible to chase after the fact once they've transferred KS monies to Archon) just a month before this KS launched. They initially refused to identify who the underlying creator was, claiming an NDA, but then lifted the NDA (how does one lift one's own NDA) to tell us it was Archon. They'd stated previously they would come clean as to the underlying creator after the project funded. In other words they went out of their way to avoid telling the community that Prodos was involved. This can only have been to avoid backlash, and yet by doing so, they essentially deceived backers and created a bigger back lash.

Now they've taken a project that was trending towards 750k before all the above revelations, and which had stretch goals running up to somewhere around the 280k mark, and unlocked everything 3 days early despite being 60k+ short of that mark (say goodbye to profits) and then sent an email to those who had backed and pulled out begging them to return and back the game. Desperation much ?

Just how many red flags do people need to steer clear of this shambles ?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 16:03:22


Post by: richred_uk


biggusdoggus wrote:

So we have a kickstarter launched by a company called LOAD Board Game based in Chicago (no such company exists) run by Mihajlo Vlaskovic (according to google, a waiter and taxi driver) who apparently runs CritOnHitGames in Chicago - a company created as a limited liability company (ie they'll be next to impossible to chase after the fact once they've transferred KS monies to Archon) just a month before this KS launched.


Also an insurance salesman if this is the same Mihajlo Vlaskovic in Chicago according to Linkedin:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mihajlo-vlaskovic-a6221b7

biggusdoggus wrote:

They initially refused to identify who the underlying creator was, claiming an NDA, but then lifted the NDA (how does one lift one's own NDA) to tell us it was Archon.


Just while I'm being picky, lifting an NDA is easy - it's essentially a contract between 2 companies saying what they can and can't discuss, so if the contract only prevented Mihajlo Vlaskovic from saying "It's Prodos", all Prodos need to do is release him from that contract. (Read Achon in place of Prodos if you prefer, I still call Snickers bars Marathons - if the ingredients are the same, the chocolate bar is the same )


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 16:31:26


Post by: biggusdoggus


perhaps a better way of putting it would be what kind of company starts a project by telling the marketing company in charge of product launch that they should not disclose the name of the company, and then having been found out, effectively announces themselves anyway?

You can tell btw, that 90% of posts and updates made by the creator have been written not by the creator/marketer, but by Jarek - ie Archon. Same writing style, same grammar errors.

and incidentally, there have been at least one, possibly more highly pro-Archon "backer" accounts that write with an identical style as well. Can't prove anything of course, but I call shenanigans.

It wouldn't even remotely surprise me to learn that not all of the 218k currently in the project is from legitimate backer sources.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 17:03:39


Post by: richred_uk


Currently 77 out of 1663 backers have never backed a KS project before - not sure if that's an unusual %age or not (4.6%) - never having researched it before it feels high as a gut feeling, but I have no data to compare it to.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 17:39:37


Post by: Alpharius


This one is now basically down to having only added backers the first two days - everything else has been eroded in the last two weeks!

I don't think I've ever seen a campaign with this type of activity - it's certainly an odd one!




LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 17:41:08


Post by: biggusdoggus


richred_uk wrote:
Currently 77 out of 1663 backers have never backed a KS project before - not sure if that's an unusual %age or not (4.6%) - never having researched it before it feels high as a gut feeling, but I have no data to compare it to.


how did you find that stat?

I doubt it's that unusual - every backer has to have a first. I just hope they did their research and understand what they might be getting themselves into.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 17:44:26


Post by: richred_uk


If you click on the "Community" link (next to Updates and Comments), you get a page that gives you the top supporting cities and countries - scroll down that and it gives you a number of new and returning backers.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 17:49:22


Post by: biggusdoggus


richred_uk wrote:
If you click on the "Community" link (next to Updates and Comments), you get a page that gives you the top supporting cities and countries - scroll down that and it gives you a number of new and returning backers.


Thanks - I'd never paid attention to that link before. Interesting stuff.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 18:53:53


Post by: Dark Severance


biggusdoggus wrote:
It wouldn't even remotely surprise me to learn that not all of the 218k currently in the project is from legitimate backer sources.
It is possible although that probability doesn't make any sense. If SGs could get unlocked then locked if funding fell below an amount, that could make sense. From the tracking I've been following though, the changes don't look abnormal.

richred_uk wrote:
Currently 77 out of 1663 backers have never backed a KS project before - not sure if that's an unusual %age or not (4.6%) - never having researched it before it feels high as a gut feeling, but I have no data to compare it to.
The majority of those who however never backed are most likely $1 pledges to track how the campaign turns out and keep updated. There could be 77 of them with "high pledges" who might drop at the last minute in a method to be malicious. Given some statements over the years, I could see that happening as well.

Currently there are 1666 backers ($219,528)

1205 backers $99 ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $133755-$149420
168 backers $99 ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $18648-$20832
141 backers $249 ($261 US, $274 RoW) - $36801-$38634
14 backers $499 ($517 US, $530 RoW) - $7238-$7420
9 backers $999 ($1017 US, $1030 RoW) - $9153-$9270

1537 backer pledges are accounted for, which means the remaining 129 backers are at a $1 pledge level. Just based on the accounted pledges that means the min/max amount of possible funds (without accounting for add-ons) is $205,595 (US only) to $225,576 (RoW only). We know the backers aren't all US based (only 689 from US) so it isn't completely outside being legit pledges.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 19:16:00


Post by: richred_uk


 Dark Severance wrote:

14 backers $249 ($261 US, $274 RoW) - $3654-$3836


Your spreadsheet has a data error in this line - this is the Painted Full Load pledge and should be $499 base cost, not $249, so this should 'soak up' about twice as much of the pledged values (making it seem more legit as a spread of costs - assuming that none of the high Painted pledges are Prodos Shills).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 19:25:17


Post by: Dark Severance


richred_uk wrote:
Your spreadsheet has a data error in this line - this is the Painted Full Load pledge and should be $499 base cost, not $249, so this should 'soak up' about twice as much of the pledged values (making it seem more legit as a spread of costs - assuming that none of the high Painted pledges are Prodos Shills).
Whoops you are correct. It isn't a spreadsheet, which would probably have prevented the error. I manually type it up each time I compare because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as much as I was. It should be correct now.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 19:30:38


Post by: richred_uk


 Dark Severance wrote:
richred_uk wrote:
Your spreadsheet has a data error in this line - this is the Painted Full Load pledge and should be $499 base cost, not $249, so this should 'soak up' about twice as much of the pledged values (making it seem more legit as a spread of costs - assuming that none of the high Painted pledges are Prodos Shills).
Whoops you are correct. It isn't a spreadsheet, which would probably have prevented the error. I manually type it up each time I compare because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as much as I was. It should be correct now.


I assume everything is a spreadsheet as that's how I do everything (forget word, access, powerpoint, if it can't be expressed in excel it's not getting expressed by me


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 19:41:54


Post by: Dark Severance


richred_uk wrote:
I assume everything is a spreadsheet as that's how I do everything (forget word, access, powerpoint, if it can't be expressed in excel it's not getting expressed by me
Yeah normally I would have probably put them in a spreadsheet. Originally it started as a post to explain how backers were leaving but funding level was still maintaining. I did it just in google docs so I can keep the information in one place between work and home. I normally clear them out. Then another discussion caused me to get another tally, then another and now I have more days worth of tracking than I had started with. I was going to put it all in a spreadsheet but since it was already created, didn't care that much... call it the lazy factor. LOL! I ended up getting way more bogged down in discussions than I originally planned as I'm just seeing how things develop.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 22:44:55


Post by: zedmeister


 Alpharius wrote:

I don't think I've ever seen a campaign with this type of activity - it's certainly an odd one!


More like surreal. I can't stop watching this one. Won't touch it with a barge pole, but I keep looking at the comments, Kicktraq, drama, Prodos bizzarro posts and a tiny subset of rabid defenders (who've gone quiet lately) with fascination:




I think there are some important Kickstarter and general business lessons to be learned from this one...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 22:51:56


Post by: Artemis Black


 Artemis Black wrote:
 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

1) Origin of Customer Protection Act is Poland as the Invoice (contract) will be issued from Archon to each backer post pledge manager. Kickstarter is not providing any invoice to backers because they would be then accounted for not-delivering.

Invoice is a proof of payment. Invoice is an itemized bill for goods sold or services provided, containing individual prices, the total charge, and the terms.


What?

Warzone Resurrection / Archon / Prodos / Whoever wrote:As a manufacturer we have an access to Custom clearance system ECS. It means that every parcel we are shipping out is custom cleared by us in Poland. To explain in depth, 35% of the cost of shipping a parcel outside EU by courier like UPS for instance, is cost of custom clearance, we don’t have this costs as we do all the paperwork work by our self.


Also, what?

Normally I'm mocking you but I'm genuinely interested in what the hell you're on about in both of these.

.


I guess no answer to these. It does seem like both of these claims are total nonsense so I was hoping there was some cool loopholes I didnt know about :(


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 23:31:39


Post by: TheWaspinator


Yeah, I still question those claims. As I understand it, US commerce law applies to most if not all transactions being mailed to US destinations. To bring up another Kickstarter trainwreck, that's one of the major problems that might happen if Heroquest 25th ever stops being vaporware since they don't appear to have the rights to the Heroquest name in the US.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 23:43:38


Post by: MaxZ


MaxT wrote:
Hi MaxZ !

(gets further ahead)


It seems my post has been marked as spam. Looks like it might be more of a challenge catching up than I thought


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/05 23:58:59


Post by: Alpharius


Looking at this a bit further, the backer drop out has actually rolled that count all the way back into day 2!

Wow!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 00:35:51


Post by: Theophony


Best Kickstarter EVER!

Well at least for watchers.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 09:59:41


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
prodos what's happening with the clear predators?

Can you answer somewhere?

When will I get them?
And all the other stuff you owe the AVP backers?

...

LOAD - Customers this is what you can expect in 5 days time.
Prodos take your money and shut down communications.
3 years later you wonder what happened???

Save your money, buy at retail.
In our experience you will get your miniatures cheaper and quicker than backers.

Panic...


When you get a minute Prodos?
I'm sure your very busy...

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 10:17:30


Post by: Theophony


Archon and Prodos are busy currently


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 13:45:13


Post by: Alpharius


The backer retreat continues:








It is a good thing this one is ending soon, I guess?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 13:55:46


Post by: TheWaspinator


It is kind of hilarious to watch. There's plenty of Kickstarters that peter out, but usually not after such an explosive start.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 14:05:13


Post by: Alpharius


It is one of the strangest ones that I've ever seen.

They effectively haven't added any money since the 4th day, and haven't added any new backers since sometime into the 2nd day!

As you say, for something that started out so hot, to see this is...odd.

I'm guessing the "Prodos Factor" was revealed sometime towards the end of the first week?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 14:28:25


Post by: Nostromodamus


Archon was revealed to be the creator on the 24th.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 16:12:01


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It just shows how badly Prodos poisoned their name.

Note that they haven't dared to show up to answer a very simple question:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Ergo, they are lying. Just like they lied about who was running the campaign. Just like they lie about Polish Consumer Protection Law.

Hey, Prodos - how come Polish Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Huh? How come American Consumer Protection Law doesn't apply to AvP backers? Where are those refunds that AvP backers requested and didn't get?


I see that Prodos dropped by, but somehow missed my bolded question above...

Prodos - why should we believe you now, when you lied to all of the AvP backers?


It seems that Prodos is afraid to come here and explain how Polish law applies to the backers who have yet to give them money, but somehow doesn't apply to those who already have.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 16:18:47


Post by: TheWaspinator


Yeah, by their own logic they should have refunded a bunch of AVP pledges for being late.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 18:42:43


Post by: Theophony


Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that . The creator is answering questions in their comment section, I guess they are too busy for us. Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 19:47:15


Post by: RiTides


I think the game looks great, and am really looking forward to it (I've kept my pledge, splitting it with another Dakkanaut). Hopefully they'll have a positive last day or two!

While the questions asked are legitimate, honestly some of the posts come off a bit as heckling... with creators that are behind I've found that's not a very effective means of getting them to respond / rectify things, for better or worse.

Quite a few of us here are pledging (Necros, Orlando, DarkSeverance, etc) so it's not that there aren't folks supporting the campaign here... but the tenor of the thread has devolved a bit (and not saying it's unreasonable to do so - just that it has).

Again, not saying folks shouldn't post these legitimate concerns - just that it's probably not going to get a lot of creator interaction without discussion of the current game, at least while that campaign is running.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 20:21:49


Post by: zedmeister


 Theophony wrote:
Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that . The creator is answering questions in their comment section, I guess they are too busy for us. Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .


Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 20:26:09


Post by: Dark Severance


 Theophony wrote:
Well it's no longer a Kickstarter editors pick either, so there's that
 zedmeister wrote:
Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...
It is still listed as a Staff Pick, "Project We Love". I do not know what conditions are met to put the "heart symbol" as a overlay on the Kickstarter image, if that is creator controlled or just faulty css scripting on KS part (usually related to that). It shows up when you browse the categories or the staff pick section, but doesn't when on the main KS page. Although you can clearly see the purple highlighted "Project We Love" just under the image.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 20:37:22


Post by: Necros


Yep I'm looking forward to it too. It's been an interesting campaign to say the least, but I have faith they will deliver and I'll have some great looking fantasy minis to probably hate myself for never getting around to painting, like half of my collection (more like 90%). It's a good deal for the amount of minis you get, and they do have top notch talent working for them. I feel that they gotta know they gotta make it a successful campaign and their future is riding on it. I think if they get this out in a timely manner and can get AVP sorted in the meantime it will go a long way toward improving their image in the community.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 20:59:32


Post by: warboss


That's an interesting divide we have going here. There are those who at least part time work within the same industry (Dark Severance, RiTides, and Necros) who are maintaining a positive outlook whereas the regular joe pure consumers who generally are pessimistic. I didn't really realize that until I saw all three of you post so close together (and, no, this isn't a conspiracy theory but rather just a simple observation nor am I trying to discount your opinions based on that work).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:03:44


Post by: RiTides


Yeah, I noticed that, too. As Necros said, I think they'd just be crazy not to deliver here (and have shown themselves capable of doing so well for other campaigns). I also think this funding will help them deliver AvP (whether directly or indirectly). So, I think it helps everyone for them to fund about how they are, and might even be better that it just stays around there rather than having gone nuts. But I guess I'm just being practical - I understand folks who just want nothing to do with it on principle, but personally hope they deliver it (and the remainder of AvP) well and can continue to serve the industry / make cool stuff.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:08:09


Post by: zedmeister


zedmeister wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .


Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...


Dark Severance wrote:It is still listed as a Staff Pick, "Project We Love". I do not know what conditions are met to put the "heart symbol" as a overlay on the Kickstarter image, if that is creator controlled or just faulty css scripting on KS part (usually related to that). It shows up when you browse the categories or the staff pick section, but doesn't when on the main KS page. Although you can clearly see the purple highlighted "Project We Love" just under the image.


I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:16:01


Post by: warboss


 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, I noticed that, too. As Necros said, I think they'd just be crazy not to deliver here (and have shown themselves capable of doing so well for other campaigns). I also think this funding will help them deliver AvP (whether directly or indirectly). So, I think it helps everyone for them to fund about how they are, and might even be better that it just stays around there rather than having gone nuts. But I guess I'm just being practical - I understand folks who just want nothing to do with it on principle, but personally hope they deliver it (and the remainder of AvP) well and can continue to serve the industry / make cool stuff.


Something being crazy hasn't so far stopped Prodos from doing it at least on the AVP campaign so I'm not sure it's the best metric. In any case, I suppose the "pro^3" crowd ( pro-Prodos professionals) care a bit more about the journey whereas the consumer is focused primarily on the destination. YMMV.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:17:48


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I think it is great that you guys are giving your money to Prodos - you're braver and more hopeful than I.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:25:46


Post by: cincydooley


As someone that worked on R&B1, the wholly unethical ripping from those rules made me pull my EB pledge.

Inexperience and mistakes made to due to incompetence are one thing; wholesale plagiarism is another.

I can abide one, the other I simply cannot. Not everyone makes that distinction if a "good deal" is to be had. I've got enough crap in my game room and garage that a "good deal" doesn't trump my ethical boundaries.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:26:30


Post by: Krinsath


 zedmeister wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .


Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?


'Ere you go, from the Space Crusade thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/678971.page#8455062


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:40:48


Post by: Dark Severance


 zedmeister wrote:
I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?
My bad, I misunderstood what you were asking for.

 warboss wrote:
That's an interesting divide we have going here. There are those who at least part time work within the same industry (Dark Severance, RiTides, and Necros) who are maintaining a positive outlook whereas the regular joe pure consumers who generally are pessimistic. I didn't really realize that until I saw all three of you post so close together (and, no, this isn't a conspiracy theory but rather just a simple observation nor am I trying to discount your opinions based on that work).
I have said this before and I think RiTides also said something similar as well. It was implied in the other posts, however I wasn't going to speak for other people, but it was clear that discussions were coming from two different points of view.

Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.

That may be because I approached it as a "business owner" and have experience dealing with IP/Licensing issues. Where some people might see some things are more excuses or lies, tend to be accurate from the backend of the business side. The front-end consumer rarely see's that so may not understand that aspect fully.

I have always approached this from a "business owner" stand-point in which Prodos/Archon is a manufacturer. Since the options are limited, that means I have to constantly keep evaluating options and making sure I don't make a stubborn decision that could negatively impact the ability to deliver future products or deny access to experience or innovations. If I was a larger company, then there are more options and ability to pick and choose more but as a small business there is less of that. Other than communication (which poor communication happens with most manufacturers) and delays, everything has been accurate and straight forward. There have been instances where normal businesses wouldn't do anything without a down payment, they went ahead and basically did loan to provide materials before being fully paid. That is risky as any business, but definitely something that is has appeal to a small business. Also as someone who deals with both companies, there are subtle signs of differences between the companies of Prodos and Archon.

However most people don't want to hear that. I will get put into a "Pro-Archon/Prodoss" category and ignored for the most part. I try to be fair and try to keep an open mind. But again that is tempered by other business dealings vs only one aspect or side. I'm not saying they are good, perfect, because they aren't and have made a lot of mistakes. They are however human and it is easy to pick things apart with hindsight.

I also want to point out that I backed Robotech RPG Tactics. It has a very similar experience as AvP, however I have no other dealings with Palladium. I do consider most things posted by them as lies and misinformation. It might have to do because I haven't had other dealings, but it mostly has to do with no activity. Prodos at least shipped, has been shipping it may not be how or as fast as people like, but it is happening... where nothing else has happened on Palladium side. Anything ever done with them in the future, I probably would never back or deal with unless in retail and even then slim.

 cincydooley wrote:
Inexperience and mistakes made to due to incompetence are one thing; wholesale plagiarism is another.
That automatically assumes that plagiarism was done with ill intent, which is fine opinion and nothing wrong with that.

One the things at conventions that are discussed amongst new game designers is how to write rules. Many publishers on these panels suggest writing a rulebook for a game you know well, write out instructions as practice. Others say find a rulebook from a game you know is good and mimic it. Even at Publishers Dating at conventions, prototypes have often have "other artwork" because they are selling the game idea, not that actual artwork. Once a deal is signed, those publishers then provide artwork or re-theme, etc. It isn't uncommon to see that.

I don't believe it was done on the intent to pull one over on people. There is no way that it would conceivably get pass people. It is great it was pointed out in the campaign and can be corrected. It would have been a disaster had it not been found out until after printing. One of my projects I had to completely redesign from scratch because the rules given to me were too closely resembled another game. It wasn't copied word for word, so there was no actual plagiarism and there were differences in mechanics but the layout looked the same. I would not have recognized that if I didn't actively play the other game, but I did and as such had to rework it from scratch. If I had not recognized it, I could definitely see me being called out on it later.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:50:13


Post by: Alpharius


 Krinsath wrote:
 zedmeister wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
... Then again Prodos said in the other thread that they were warned by many others in the industry not to interact with the people on DakkaDakka .


Oh, please provide a link to that. Could do with a good laugh...

I've bolded the bit I'd like a link to if someone would kindly oblige...?


'Ere you go, from the Space Crusade thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/678971.page#8455062


There's a 'better' one about Dakka Dakka being a 'cesspool of vitriol and hate' too...

The biggest issue for me is the whole AvP thing - it just wasn't handled well at all, on many levels. And many backers still haven't received stuff yet.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 21:53:32


Post by: cincydooley


 Dark Severance wrote:

It wasn't copied word for word, so there was no actual plagiarism and there were differences in mechanics but the layout looked the same. I would not have recognized that if I didn't actively play the other game, but I did and as such had to rework it from scratch. If I had not recognized it, I could definitely see me being called out on it later.


And that's the difference. I don't think people expect games to be wholly original; mechanics that work, work, and people are going to use those mechanics because they work.. Games are going to be derivative. And generally, that's okay.

But, in this instance, there was very obvious direct plagiarism. Purposeful or not, it's there, very plainly, in black and white. For me, there's no room for, "yeah, buts" there. Is it possible it wasn't caught because of poor (or nonexistent) vetting processes? Sure. Doesn't make, in my mind, the plagiarism more ethical.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 22:03:09


Post by: warboss


 Dark Severance wrote:


Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.


In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread. The number is shrinking albeit but still they exist. I really don't understand how prodos is prioritizing that stuff with some having their full pledges received (like yourself, albeit with a boost due to your gencon attendance) assuming there is no wave 4 (not sure if that is the case) whereas others have gotten nothing.

Ironically, I used to use AVP as an example of how to run a post kickstarter campaign. Obviously, that was a long time ago...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 22:10:09


Post by: CptJake


 Necros wrote:
Yep I'm looking forward to it too. It's been an interesting campaign to say the least, but I have faith they will deliver and I'll have some great looking fantasy minis to probably hate myself for never getting around to painting, like half of my collection (more like 90%). It's a good deal for the amount of minis you get, and they do have top notch talent working for them. I feel that they gotta know they gotta make it a successful campaign and their future is riding on it. I think if they get this out in a timely manner and can get AVP sorted in the meantime it will go a long way toward improving their image in the community.


Maybe, but when their go to move is lie and deceive (which they did at the start of this KS) even delivering is not going to help too much. Dishonesty and lack of integrity deserved to be called out and hammered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 warboss wrote:
 Dark Severance wrote:


Although I did back AvP, I received my pledges from them. Wave 1 was picked up from GenCon. My Wave 2 I believe was shipped from Ninja Division. Wave 3 (which I actually didn't know I had miniatures) came in last week. I have some local friends who received their Wave 1 with their Wave 2 shipment, those I think came directly from Prodos. Even though the KS was incredibly late, I never looked at the information given as intentional lies.


In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread. The number is shrinking albeit but still they exist. I really don't understand how prodos is prioritizing that stuff with some having their full pledges received (like yourself, albeit with a boost due to your gencon attendance) assuming there is no wave 4 (not sure if that is the case) whereas others have gotten nothing.

Ironically, I used to use AVP as an example of how to run a post kickstarter campaign. Obviously, that was a long time ago...


I also wonder what his opinion would have been if they had used his IP without permission.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 22:31:28


Post by: Dark Severance


 cincydooley wrote:
But, in this instance, there was very obvious direct plagiarism. Purposeful or not, it's there, very plainly, in black and white. For me, there's no room for, "yeah, buts" there. Is it possible it wasn't caught because of poor (or nonexistent) vetting processes? Sure. Doesn't make, in my mind, the plagiarism more ethical.
I agree that it plagiarism isn't ethical. As a mistake the company made there will definitely and has been a backlash because of it. If it was on purpose or a mistake, it doesn't matter since the damage is done.

Who would you ultimately hold responsible and why? Let me ask it in a different way. If CMoN released PnP rules that somehow made it through the process containing plagiarism. When they found out, they terminated the person responsible, removed the rules and then updated them, publishing them. Is CMoN still responsible and thus shouldn't be supported anymore, is the person who was terminated responsible, it was a mistake but CMoN owned up and corrected it so it is a start... how does a front-end consumer really know that person blamed was terminated?

I usually start by asking myself those questions, based on if I made the mistake, but that is moreso so I can learn from others mistakes.

 warboss wrote:
In a perfect butterfly effect retrospectovision world, it would be interesting to see if your opinion would have been different had you received nothing (not wave 1, not 2, and certainly not 3) up until this point or close to it like some folks in the AVP thread.
Given that I waited 6 months to get Battle Systems as a US Backer, compared to the rest of the world... I would probably say my opinion would not be different. There are also my dealings with MegaCon and Mantic as well.

My only gripe with Battle Systems was that I didn't want to fully commit to their 2nd KS without first seeing the quality of the 1st, because it was something I've not seen or experienced before. After I got my pledge, I found I actually over estimated what I would need so was able to adjust pledges for other KS. My experiences with MegaCon with shipped, not shipped and with Mantic completely losing my pledge. It took some time but eventually things were worked out. There was a few "this has been taken care of" and only to find out it wasn't, so there was back and forth but I didn't feel that I was lied or cheated.

With Prodos I've ordered Warzone stuff from them previously, any issues with miniatures were handled with replacements without hassles. Getting replacements from them has actually been easier than with any company I've dealt with previously.

Unfortunately I have no idea how prioritization went for shipping. I honestly believe their pledge manager itself is buggy and has issues. Given how many times I've saved things, only to come back and information was wrong or didn't save properly. That was before the whole opening, closing, reopening, closing issues they had. I know one of the people in group didn't attend GenCon, after Ninja Division sent out their packs. They wrote a queried letter to them, then got it shipped out to him. It did take a couple emails, changing the subject line so it wouldn't get threaded to the same email and spam filters though. Back before they started closing the Facebook groups, there were people saying they would put Prodos's emails submitted to mailer websites so they get spammed. There were quite a few vocal threats of physical violence, but then again its Facebook so if those are true or not or just people venting... who knows.

I personally don't understand why Prodos doesn't take the time just to email people who don't have pledges, especially here on Dakka, and prioritize those. Don't have them email, just deal with it in PMs so there is no risk or something not getting through. But yeah I have no understanding how they are prioritizing that stuff. As I've said there are a lot of decisions I would do differently though.

 CptJake wrote:
I also wonder what his opinion would have been if they had used his IP without permission.
I would have probably looked at as an opportunity, reached out and tried to make a deal. Either making a case of saying these rules are bad, let me give you something a bit different that matches and unique in exchange for something. If I was a heavy plastic miniatures company, it could have been an opportunity to still get higher detail, resin single piece miniatures for painters or collectors. It could have been in exchange for digital sculpting, printing services as well but there is definitely an opportunity.

The majority of business owners probably would not make that decision. Old school business means everyone is a competitor, that if your competitor is getting customers then most likely they will not buy from you. This was often how local game stores treated Magic and other TCGs. They didn't really want you trying to disrupt their players. If you were a TO, they tend to think you belong to a store instead of a region. If I went to Store A trying to organize their players but was from Store B, then it looked like I was taking customers. Instead I'm trying to provide both locations with customers because I know people's schedules change, so they have better access to more events thus those they wouldn't normally had as customers now become possible customers.

I treat gaming miniatures in a similar fashion. I'm not vain enough to think my rules are the bomb, the best in the world and even if they were I know people play other games. I want the gaming community to grow, not pit businesses against each other or players against one another. I recognize that people that play WH40K also play Infinity, that people that Zombicide also play Super Dungeon Explorer. Any chances for cross promotions, helping others, promoting others enhances the gaming community as a whole and introduces new potential.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 22:43:59


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
Prodos make amazing Miniatures!

I've been waiting years for my AVP miniatures? I got some but not all.
Some backers have received nothing!
What makes the backers of LOAD believe they will be treated any different?
Will Load be placed before AVP in the queue?

AVP KS funded miniatures were on sale in FLGS and at shows before backers got them.
The same is likely to happen with LOAD.

As soon as they can grab another revenue stream and sell something Prodos sell it.
Before backers get it!

I'd recommend that backers hold their cash.
They will be able to buy from online discount retailers as soon as the product is complete.
It's risk free.

AVP is now available cheaper in store than it was sold to KS backers.
KS backers paid more and LOADs of them have nothing.
It's now available for less in stores. Risk free...

Clear miniatures?
They said they could cast these while taking our money.
But now it turns out they can't?

Prodos?

Prodos can't be trusted with our money.
Prodos called dakka a cesspool of Vitriol and Hate!
Prodos, when will I receive my stuff?
Prodos make amazing miniatures!

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 23:09:43


Post by: Theophony


I Luckilybmissed out on the KS due to funds at the time, but I got a copy from MM at 60% off due to the box being dinged, no internal problems. They still had 5 copies at 50% off on the shelf last week (same ones sitting for over a month now). MM has also gotten restocked on the main box at least once that I've seen, so them prioritizing shipping does not float with me.

I understand your points RITides, and I respect them. The only issue I have is that they are not taking care of their customers. If Necros had a customer missing some black water gulch product I don't think he would hide behind his other games and say that they are a seperate company. I also am not saying you guys are shills or just holding the game industry line, but you all have to tread the waters a little differently since you each work in the industry and don't want to create a bad rep for yourself by throwing another company under the bus. If you feel like backing and can believe the risk is minimal than do so its your money. We have had other companies and individuals that were not shouted down enough and keep creeping back up (Tony Reidy) and I think Prodos is worse than him by a mile.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 23:31:43


Post by: CptJake


I agree with Rtides, Necros and Dark Severance in that there is less risk for this KS than AvP. I suspect the only way they don't deliver is if the plagiarism and IP theft of characters comes back and bites them in the ass.

I do think you are at risk of a boring/mediocre game, and I am one of those types who refuses to reward poor behavior and lack of integrity by doing business with this type of company.

But I do believe the backers will end up with their games from this, probably before AvP backers get everything they've paid for in at least some cases.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 23:41:02


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Whether it is less risky than AvP remains to be seen, because Prodos has not yet delivered on AvP, despite the various things they many have touched for others.

They refuse to address basic business ethics, and that is a major issue when one is expected to blindly trust them to fulfill down the line, especially after they have shown to break that trust.

I simply don't believe that Prodos deserves my support until they address their outstanding issues (i.e. AvP).




Also, the game itself doesn't look that good.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/06 23:45:37


Post by: Malkaven


After I got burned on the drake KS I stopped backing risky KS's like this one. If it ever hits retail then its something i'd consider but why front the money?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 00:09:27


Post by: Dark Severance


]
 CptJake wrote:
I agree with Rtides, Necros and Dark Severance in that there is less risk for this KS than AvP. I suspect the only way they don't deliver is if the plagiarism and IP theft of characters comes back and bites them in the ass.

I do think you are at risk of a boring/mediocre game, and I am one of those types who refuses to reward poor behavior and lack of integrity by doing business with this type of company.
I honestly don't care about the game itself, I know I am probably a minority, some will say why make a game then. I am more interested in the technology behind UniCast. To me it is considered more of a R&D expenditure than I'm buying a game. The miniatures do look good, not sure what I'd use them for yet.

With metal vs resin vs plastics, the costs, the pros and cons with those methods are fairly well known. They do show some impressive casting ability with UniCast, which does have some minor issues. It needs to be put through the fire though, so I want to see how it does on a mass (or larger) production level. I more or less want the tech to succeed or at least be pushed to the limits so that the flaws can be properly identified.

If it was my company, Prodos would be the front-end face. That means they need to fix their issues, swallow the pill and costs and ship out AvP. Any pledge managers with issues, then email those customers. If no response make a post with their backer name and an method of contact both email and another route (PM through a message board). Resolve those issues. Move LOAD to a Prodos title. Make Archon a manufacturer, maintain that relationship but otherwise it is dealt with the on the back-end. People would still contact Prodos for the information and they essentially are outsourcing to Archon.

Meanwhile there are other people working on trying to reverse-engineer what they have done. That means they need to put on their best dancing shoes, get their ducks in a row otherwise they can not maintain an edge. There is hope to repair what was lost, but this is literally the test of fire.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 20162016/07/02 22:35:45


Post by: Artemis Black


 Theophony wrote:

I understand your points RITides, and I respect them. The only issue I have is that they are not taking care of their customers. If Necros had a customer missing some black water gulch product I don't think he would hide behind his other games and say that they are a seperate company. I also am not saying you guys are shills or just holding the game industry line, but you all have to tread the waters a little differently since you each work in the industry and don't want to create a bad rep for yourself by throwing another company under the bus.


I'm in the industry and I wouldn't back this Kickstarter if one of the stretch goals was the cure for cancer.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 04:29:22


Post by: cincydooley


 Dark Severance wrote:
Is CMoN still responsible and thus shouldn't be supported anymore, is the person who was terminated responsible, it was a mistake but CMoN owned up and corrected it so it is a start... how does a front-end consumer really know that person blamed was terminated?


Yes, I think CMON would still be (justifiably) responsible. And did LOAD really "own up" to it?

"After we received information about LOAD rulebook having at some parts similar wording to R&B, we took it down and sent it for technical rewrite. Gameplay was not changed, game play is based on MOBA games and we are proud at our own version of it."


That really doesn't seem like a mea cupla, "owning up" to me. In fact, it really isn't at all. Similar /= Word for Word plagiarism. That fact doesn't give me a ton of positive juju about the game actually having been tested much, if at all. Hopefully ND, since they're distributing in the US, can use their experience and wealth of testers to improve upon that so those that do stick with it have a game that isn't poorly balanced.

Regardless, the plagiarism is, as I said, the major troublesome part to me. And that's as someone that does not have his full AVP pledge. I was backing prior to finding out about it.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 06:07:10


Post by: ced1106


Update 22: "After KS campaign is over, we will make a forum with access to backers only, we will also have a section of it dedicated to those who want to help playtest and tweak a gameplay in order to make it better. We will not change the game after every idea you have, but we will check and recheck everything and make changes that prove to be valid."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1591030

I also remember them saying the pages are ready to print, and it's just a matter of putting in the rules in various different languages. I don't know how they're printing the cards, but iirc, Jarek said that the rules rewrite wouldn't affect production.

I asked them who the designer is and why their playtesting groups didn't catch the similarity to R&B. No answer.

I think I'll wait for retail.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 06:11:32


Post by: Dark Severance


 cincydooley wrote:
Yes, I think CMON would still be (justifiably) responsible. And did LOAD really "own up" to it?
That really doesn't seem like a mea cupla, "owning up" to me. In fact, it really isn't at all. Similar /= Word for Word plagiarism. That fact doesn't give me a ton of positive juju about the game actually having been tested much, if at all. Hopefully ND, since they're distributing in the US, can use their experience and wealth of testers to improve upon that so those that do stick with it have a game that isn't poorly balanced.
Yes they did own up and say plagiarism, it was blamed on the outsourced person who was working on the rules. Some people will believe that and others will call it a lie. I edited a previous post because I was going off the other post but once I found the source, I edited my post because they said there was "plagiarism", not similar wording. That was why I asked my initial question as I did, because I was curious on how it would be viewed if it wasn't Prodos.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 08:32:31


Post by: RiTides


Thanks for the great discussion guys - and I think you're right on point, Theophony. Just wanted to comment on this:

 Malkaven wrote:
After I got burned on the drake KS I stopped backing risky KS's like this one. If it ever hits retail then its something i'd consider but why front the money?

I posted about this previously, but it's a different kind of risk here. Unlike with Drake, Torn Armor, Project Elite, or quite a few other "first time creator" failed projects, the risk here is not that the mini sculpts or production casts will turn out terrible - they've shown all these. Like Dark Severance, that's what I'm mostly interested in - it could really fill a huge gap in the industry, between hand cast resin miniatures (awesome but expensive and only usable at low volumes) and injection molding (only cost effective at really high volumes, with most companies resorting to PVC to keep costs down, but sacrificing quality).

I had really high hopes for Trollforged's attempt at filling this gap, but unfortunately they have all the business they can handle (still finishing their own campaign, too - but quite close!). Despite being friends with Ed, I have found it's nearly impossible to get into their queue.

So, for me Archon and Prodos being able to fund this game and continue making models is helping fill that gap, and could be great for everyone. It's also a chicken and egg thing, in that just practically speaking, funding this campaign likely helps current AvP folks, who they've directly said they are only shipping to as new orders are placed because funds are low. I'm sure they don't plan to use these funds for AvP finishing fulfillment directly, but it is bound to help!

I really respect cincydooley's view and other's like it, just wanted to share mine based on what I see Archon doing and hopefully continuing to do in the future. If they fail to follow through on this project and fulfilling AvP, I can't imagine there will be any grace left for them, but I'm willing to give them this chance because they are both so far along on production of the models here, and with the hope that they can make good on their obligations as they have been plugging away at steadily (quite unlike Defiance, who was mentioned). In general, I think they just have bad PR - but the motivation to fulfill this well is going to be really high, as a chance to get back in good standing with the community. Here's hoping they can do it!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2009/02/02 22:43:58


Post by: Artemis Black


 RiTides wrote:
I really respect cincydooley's view and other's like it, just wanted to share mine based on what I see Archon doing and hopefully continuing to do in the future. If they fail to follow through on this project and fulfilling AvP, I can't imagine there will be any grace left for them, but I'm willing to give them this chance because they are both so far along on production of the models here, and with the hope that they can make good on their obligations as they have been plugging away at steadily (quite unlike Defiance, who was mentioned). In general, I think they just have bad PR - but the motivation to fulfill this well is going to be really high, as a chance to get back in good standing with the community. Here's hoping they can do it!


I think they had an opportunity to have their second chance (not including the umpteen AvP chances) with this Kickstarter, but then blew it regardless. The fulfillment isn't their second chance, even on this Kickstarter alone it'd be their 4th or 5th. 1. Starting a kickstarter pretending to be someone else - blown. 2. Plagiarising the rules from a different game - blown. 3. Weird announcements, bordering on mis-selling, about protection that doesn't exist as far as I know and postage laws that sound like made up nonsense - blown.

And that's not including the generally bad, or non existent, attempts at PR and fixing the issues or the weird incestuous relationship to other Kickstarters that have been handled incredibly poorly like the numerous Demigods ones.

The miniatures look fine but the game looks hobbled together from other people's properties and seems unplaytested,

And that doesn't even go into the broader questions of why employees seem to be switching companies and so does ownership of things like Unicast. There is a not very good reason that comes flying to mind, as I'm sure it does to anyone who knows anything about business.

I think categorising fulfillment of this as their 'second' chance is... generous


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 09:30:53


Post by: TheWaspinator


Yeah, I think they already ruined their second chance when they started this campaign with hiding their identity. Actively misleading people is not a good way to earn back trust.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 11:22:18


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
They can't tell the truth.

But this project will reach stores fast.
Past performance shows once the capital is spent, they will start selling.
Before backers get there's.

Buy it at retail. Cheaper and Risk free.

panic.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 12:11:00


Post by: warboss


 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
They can't tell the truth.

But this project will reach stores fast.
Past performance shows once the capital is spent, they will start selling.
Before backers get there's.

Buy it at retail. Cheaper and Risk free.

panic.


Are you going through an artsy beatnik phase? Lol, you've been posting angry haikus. I agree with the sentiment but the structure is very unique!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 17:07:11


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, I think they already ruined their second chance when they started this campaign with hiding their identity.


I think people need to understand that Prodos / Archon will owe backers nothing upon completion.

The KS is not between backer and Prodos / Archon. It is between backer and "LoadBoardGame", a LLC with no assets, and almost certainly "judgement proof" even if we pierce the corporate veil. US / Polish Consumer Protection Law would be like squeezing blood from a stone.

Quite frankly, it is a scam, and you would be an idiot for backing it.

The only way you would consider it is if LoadBoardGame reveals their contract with Prodos / Archon, and it clearly states that Prodos / Archon assumes all risks, liabilities and obligations incurred by LoadBoardGame. And I haven't seen that.

What is almost certainly the case is that Prodos / Archon is completely insulated from and indemnified by LoadBoardGame, so if LoardBoardGame is sued by the US / State AG, backers get nothing.

And even then, because LoadBoardGame is a friend of Prodos / Archon, it's not like he's going to sue them to have someone enforce it.

Now, maybe, Prodos / Archon will deliver on behalf of LoadBoardGame. That's possible. Some AvP backers got some of their stuff. But it's just as likely that this happens:



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 23:02:07


Post by: RiTides


Just noting the word "second" isn't anywhere in that post, Artemis

These are all really valid points, I just find a lot of value in Prodos/Archon being able to have enough funding to keep making awesome things, and hopefully take care of current customers, too.

Filling that gap between resin and injection molded plastic is hard to do - Trollforged is still producing like crazy for Raging Heroes, but for everyone else there really isn't an option. For my own purchases, I tend to bite the bullet and go for resin, or metal for things like the mini I got from you recently, Artemis!

But I would love to see Archon be able to continue to grow into the role of filling that gap. There are drawbacks, but with the lack of alternatives I think you'd see many more PVC projects if Archon disappeared... and the results from that is just not to my liking, personally. I want to see more and more companies innovate away from that medium, not be forced to embrace it.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 23:12:28


Post by: Artemis Black


 RiTides wrote:
Just noting the word "second" isn't anywhere in that post, Artemis

These are all really valid points, I just find a lot of value in Prodos/Archon being able to have enough funding to keep making awesome things, and hopefully take care of current customers, too.

Filling that gap between resin and injection molded plastic is hard to do - Trollforged is still producing like crazy for Raging Heroes, but for everyone else there really isn't an option. For my own purchases, I tend to bite the bullet and go for resin, or metal for things like the mini I got from you recently, Artemis!

But I would love to see Archon be able to continue to grow into the role of filling that gap. There are drawbacks, but with the lack of alternatives I think you'd see many more PVC projects if Archon disappeared... and the results from that is just not to my liking, personally. I want to see more and more companies innovate away from that medium, not be forced to embrace it.



*laugh* You're right, sorry I just read it as second chance.

As for the tech, yeah it's interesting, but in a few months time it'll be duplicated, then again and again. Trollforged is just a spincast resin/plastic hybrid, they exist in numerous places now, and kind of did when Trollforged came out even (I haven't seen anything in recent years but it also used to have massive shrinking problems).

Unicast just kinda looks like injection moulded resin/plastic hybrid. The prices don't seem too far off spincast versions but with the advantage of PVC moulding where you can pull 1 piece minis out because they're bendy (The 1 piece moulding is mostly good mini design btw rather than some magical function of the tech). It's interesting for sure but it's not worldbreaking or anything and it'll be replicated soon if it hasn't been already.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/07 23:14:35


Post by: CptJake


NM


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 00:07:38


Post by: TheWaspinator


Yeah, the fact that there's that "LoadBoardGame" company creating a potential layer of legal shielding to make lawsuits have more difficulty reaching the actual company is not reassuring. It's still possible that this project is not a scam, but there's enough shady stuff going on that I would rather back a Kickstarter by an unknown entity than one by these guys. Which hilariously is probably why they tried to hide their identities.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 00:37:27


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The KS is not between backer and Prodos / Archon. It is between backer and "LoadBoardGame", a LLC with no assets, and almost certainly "judgement proof" even if we pierce the corporate veil.
Where is the information that there is a LoadBoardGame LLC? I have been trying to go through the various BBG threads and comments to find a source or reference but haven't found anything so far.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 00:54:18


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Look here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22748357#22748357
It's some taxi driver / logistics guy in Chicago with ties to Prodos.

No matter what is said by Prodos, LoadBoardGame is the "creator" on the KS contract, and they are the entity you would have to pursue for redress / fulfillment. If they subsequently hire Prodos, that doesn't change the contract. If Prodos / Archon claim that they will fulfill the KS, it's not really enforcible. Even if it were, Prodos is presumed judgement proof, based on how they fail to fulfill AvP.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 01:11:22


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Look here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22748357#22748357
It's some taxi driver / logistics guy in Chicago with ties to Prodos.

No matter what is said by Prodos, LoadBoardGame is the "creator" on the KS contract, and they are the entity you would have to pursue for redress / fulfillment. If they subsequently hire Prodos, that doesn't change the contract. If Prodos / Archon claim that they will fulfill the KS, it's not really enforcible. Even if it were, Prodos is presumed judgement proof, based on how they fail to fulfill AvP.
Then there is not an LoadBoardGame LLC? At least there was no mention of one there that I could find. Yes the Kickstarter account that created the Kickstarter is connected and shows the creator as Mihajilo Vlaskovic. But that is the same thing as when Mantic Games creates a KS but the account is Joe Neet and CMoN KS are created by David Doust. Although I'm fairly certain, as with any KS, there is enough branding and information that if you did have to go to court it ties to Archon. Just like if Dungeon Saga somehow had an issue, people can tie it to Mantic Games to do something.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 01:30:31


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?

And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 01:44:33


Post by: Dark Severance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?

And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.
I have no idea if he is or not. However legal matters in that sort of thing isn't as cut and dry as that. I guess hypothetically Archon could state that Mihajilo Vlaskovic isn't part of Archon and that they had nothing to do with it. In current legal matters that would mean people could go after him but it isn't that simple. This isn't just for Archon, this is for any Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't verify your business name, type, it just wants a bank account and verifies the creator. Everything is literally branded as Archon, so even if they try do deny a relationship to Mihajilo, Archon can still be held responsible. Unless Jarek suddenly isn't considered part of Archon/Prodos anymore, meaning his statements are also null and void and the other documents and evidence (outside of KS) that links them to it. However even if Jarek himself was no longer associated afterwards, at the time of his posts he was associated thus still maintains a responsible link to Archon.

I'm not saying that legally going after any company that runs a Kickstarter isn't a hassle. It is something that is shared with all Kickstarter creators. I was just wanting to verify there wasn't another LLC, which is still possible if they did a DBA. That wouldn't be unheard of to register and create multiple DBAs from one LLC but they all tie to the main LLC. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, this is just from my own experiences with my own businesses. I also understand that the laws will vary from country and state as well.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 01:47:27


Post by: Artemis Black


 Dark Severance wrote:
Yes the Kickstarter account that created the Kickstarter is connected and shows the creator as Mihajilo Vlaskovic. But that is the same thing as when Mantic Games creates a KS but the account is Joe Neet and CMoN KS are created by David Doust.


Not 'quite' the same, a simple google of Joe or Dave will find that they are clearly and openly associated with their respective companies and are active employees/directors.

A google search of Mihalijo Vlaskovic, prior to this kickstarter, would come up with no such links to the actual company behind the Kickstarter his name is on.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 02:46:38


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Dark Severance wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?

And if he's not a LLC, all that means is that we get to go after him personally if things go wrong. So he could lose his personal savings accounts, his house, etc.
I have no idea if he is or not. However legal matters in that sort of thing isn't as cut and dry as that. I guess hypothetically Archon could state that Mihajilo Vlaskovic isn't part of Archon and that they had nothing to do with it.

In current legal matters that would mean people could go after him but it isn't that simple. This isn't just for Archon, this is for any Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't verify your business name, type, it just wants a bank account and verifies the creator. Everything is literally branded as Archon, so even if they try do deny a relationship to Mihajilo, Archon can still be held responsible.

Unless Jarek suddenly isn't considered part of Archon/Prodos anymore, meaning his statements are also null and void and the other documents and evidence (outside of KS) that links them to it. However even if Jarek himself was no longer associated afterwards, at the time of his posts he was associated thus still maintains a responsible link to Archon.

I'm not saying that legally going after any company that runs a Kickstarter isn't a hassle. It is something that is shared with all Kickstarter creators. I was just wanting to verify there wasn't another LLC, which is still possible if they did a DBA. That wouldn't be unheard of to register and create multiple DBAs from one LLC but they all tie to the main LLC. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, this is just from my own experiences with my own businesses. I also understand that the laws will vary from country and state as well.


And you don't see the inherent problem with that? Prodos has already distanced itself from Archon. Even though we know there is huge overlap. If TSHTF, Archon isn't legally obligated by what he does or says.

And it is that simple. In the case of CMoN, David is an officer of the company. In the case of DreamForge, Mark is an Officer. That makes a very big difference when these Officers act on behalf of the company, or they incorporate on behalf of themselves. They are legally synonymous of those companies. Mihaj is synynomous with LoadBoardGame, but that doesn't make him Archon, which is a subsidiary of Prodos. If Mihaj isn't a an Officer of either of them, legally, it is much harder to make any of this stick. And, as Prodos was very clear, Archon could fold and not impact Prodos. And vice versa. Go ahead, go after Archon, Prodos will simply shift assets.

Where has Jarek posted as himself in this campaign? Has that happened? Or is all through his anonymizer?

The problem is that the legal relationship is complex and it is not clear to what extent anyone besides Mihaj is obliged to deliver.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 04:03:57


Post by: ced1106


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is he an Officer of Prodos, authorized to legally represent and bind Prodos?


MV is the President of CritOnHitGames, whose only internet existence are some posts about LOAD on a gaming site.
http://www.gamewire.belloflostsouls.net/author/critonhitgames/

"Archon hired CritOnHitGames to be the spokesperson/PR for the game and conceal the presence of Prodos. The leader of this company is Mihajlo Vlaskovic. Mr. Vlaskovic is the Logistics Manager for Demigods Rising, and the President of Kicktotal Games, the company behind Demigods Evolution. Thus, Demigods is not directly related to LOAD." https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/4kzgms/shady_ks_load/

Transferring money on KS is a con man's dream. Even with the high profile Conan boardgame, Days of Wonder was the entity receiving the funds, not Monolith. With DUST KS, Battefront (?) received from KS and was supposed to transfer it to Paolo Parente (or something). With the Asylum Bicycle card KS, the American entity who received KS funds, never transferred it to the Italian (?) artist who was actually behind the project.





LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 04:28:34


Post by: Krinsath


The Dust/BF kerfuffle is an excellent example of what John's referring to; you had the US branch of a New Zealand company selling the products of a Chinese manufacturer. Things went to hell when it came time to get the campaign's freebies made and, reportedly, Dust reneged on their share basically saying that Paolo had no authority to approve anything during the campaign because the owner of Dust Studios was not Paolo and BF would need to pay for them all. BF might have had a legal case to pursue Dust on because Paolo certainly ACTS like an officer of the company, but international legalities would be exorbitant in cost and take eons, even with stronger and clearer-cut law regulating commerce between businesses (as Dust likely had their own counter-suits they could mount). Eventually the companies reached some sort of settlement on who would be paying for what and announced that would end their tempestuous partnership after fulfillment.

However, fast-forward to today and there's still backers that haven't received everything they paid for, and that's with companies who were not trying to play deceptive games with who was doing what; both BF and DS suck at communication and that came back to bite them both in a big way. In this case, when you have a company that is already concealing who they are, has a large amount of overlap with troubled entities and further has a murky relationship citing international laws as your protections, it does send up a large number of red flags despite how impressive the models themselves might be.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 04:43:26


Post by: Grot 6


I don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. they have the miniatures production capability, the game looked set, why so much drama for so little product?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 04:55:00


Post by: richred_uk


 Grot 6 wrote:
I don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. they have the miniatures production capability, the game looked set, why so much drama for so little product?


Because ........ Prodos.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 05:41:36


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
Very interesting stuff.

I would say the best thing to do would be not back this.
Buy at retail... Risk free.

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 05:56:22


Post by: jorny


Considering that a lot of people buy stuff from Mierce and CMoN the whole AVP debacle will be forgotten if Prodos manages to deliver a few kickstarter with shiny things.

If Prodos actually manage to deliver AVP in full, then they should be considered a lot more honest than the people behind Mierce and CMoN if held by the same standard.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 06:37:36


Post by: JohnHwangDD


What's the issue with CMoN delivery / honesty?

My experience with CMoN is that they basically deliver what they said they would. Now, some of the underlying gameplay is flawed, and there are occasional minor issues, but it's not like AvP at all.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 10:15:27


Post by: Theophony


I WAS a CMoN hater because they were a company called New Wave games a couple decades ago. I had ordered two box sets from them back in the day when they were running 30% off GW stock and they had a decent track record on the gaming sites back then. They took my money and ran with it and closed up shop with no contact info. I didn't find out that they became CMoN until I saw someone post on here a couple or three years ago and then I tried contacting them. I was basically told that it was a separate company and the could do nothing about it. It was just over $100 but it me off and I didn't want to touch them and actually skipped zombicide 1-3 because of it. I finally bought some zombies for painting later and got hooked after picking up one of the boxes on Miniaturemarket.coms deal of the day. I've since backed blood rage (received that) and ZBP (still waiting my wave 2), I missed out on the KS for B-Siegel because I didn't like the look of the heroes at all, but I grabbed that as a deal of the day as well.

As for shipping problems, some people are hacked off about the listed estimates compared to final costs. The prices went up for shipping, but then they didn't bother to adjust the costs on their next KS to show it so they are branded as dishonest even though it plainly says Estimate. I get it though because the deal becomes so much less sweet when you double, triple or quadruple the shipping costs.

There are also some who didn't get the ZBP core box before Christmas even though CMoN shipped most as soon as they could AT THEIR COST. Many of those didn't have their info saved in the system on time, but I'm sure there are exceptions. There are others who wanted multiple copies but only got one copy of the core box, but CMoN told everyone up front that they were only shipping one set to each backer so they could get something under the tree for Christmas.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:25:43


Post by: jorny


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's the issue with CMoN delivery / honesty?

My experience with CMoN is that they basically deliver what they said they would. Now, some of the underlying gameplay is flawed, and there are occasional minor issues, but it's not like AvP at all.


Theophony sums it up above. Google around about new wave miniatures, and there are a lot of stories of people getting more or less ripped off. The people behind CMoN are more or less the same as the one behind New Wave miniatures. Even though CMoN seems to be running more or less smoothly the same people caused a lot of bad feelings in the early 2000's. Prodos may have a mess on their hands with AVP, but they are still delivering (although painfully slow, and I am not really defending them) and seem intent on delivering, which is a lot more than the people behind Maelstrom/Mierce and New Wave/CMoN did when they switched companies.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:33:43


Post by: Alpharius


I still find the progress (?) on this one fascinating to follow:








I can't remember another campaign with anything like that...



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:38:49


Post by: Nostromodamus


I was just looking at the kicktraq myself.

Definitely breaks the typical curve...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:45:40


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
My issue with CMON was them selling the first boxes of zombiecide before delivering to backers.

I contacted them and complained about them selling before delivering to backers and they mocked me, refunded me and sold my pledge.

Saints compared to Prodos, but CMON are another company who don't deserve my money.
Proper bunch of wet ding dongs.

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:45:41


Post by: Alpharius


The "Prodos Reveal" started a backslide that, essentially, hasn't stopped.

It shows just how much damage Prodos has done to themselves and their name.

I suppose it is a good thing that the majority of their backers and money came during the first 2 days.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 14:47:50


Post by: Nostromodamus


 Alpharius wrote:
The "Prodos Reveal" started a backslide that, essentially, hasn't stopped.

It shows just how much damage Prodos has done to themselves and their name.

I suppose it is a good thing that the majority of their backers and money came during the first 2 days.



Yup. Only one day with a positive backer number (and that was only a single backer) since revealing they were behind it all.

Makes you wonder how high it would have gone had they not done so.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 15:11:53


Post by: warboss


 Alpharius wrote:
The "Prodos Reveal" started a backslide that, essentially, hasn't stopped.

It shows just how much damage Prodos has done to themselves and their name.

I suppose it is a good thing that the majority of their backers and money came during the first 2 days.



The damage IMO is ongoing until later today with the deceit that this campaign was initially based upon and cummulative with the previous continuing mess of AVP. When I did a quick check yesterday, they backslid to day 4 in terms of funding (and day 2 according to you in terms of backers). If they had just bitten the bullet and shifted some money into Prodos towards immediate AVP fulfillment (as opposed to moving assets apparently over to Archon), I think they would have made that money back and more with an honest and open campaign in terms of total pledges compared with their likely total today. They basically chose the opposite of what would have most reformed their tarnished reputation (in the eyes of consumers but not apparently with other businesses) and I suspect it cost them more money in the end than just doing the right thing(s) in the first place.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 15:27:29


Post by: str00dles1


I was in it for the 100$ pledge to do 30 more for the resin towers as I love MOBAS, but after looking at it more, think I would enjoy rum and bones more, and not have to worry about phobos. So I canceled it.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 15:57:18


Post by: Alpharius


 warboss wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
The "Prodos Reveal" started a backslide that, essentially, hasn't stopped.

It shows just how much damage Prodos has done to themselves and their name.

I suppose it is a good thing that the majority of their backers and money came during the first 2 days.



The damage IMO is ongoing until later today with the deceit that this campaign was initially based upon and cummulative with the previous continuing mess of AVP. When I did a quick check yesterday, they backslid to day 4 in terms of funding (and day 2 according to you in terms of backers). If they had just bitten the bullet and shifted some money into Prodos towards immediate AVP fulfillment (as opposed to moving assets apparently over to Archon), I think they would have made that money back and more with an honest and open campaign in terms of total pledges compared with their likely total today. They basically chose the opposite of what would have most reformed their tarnished reputation (in the eyes of consumers but not apparently with other businesses) and I suspect it cost them more money in the end than just doing the right thing(s) in the first place.


Yes, exactly - and Exalted!



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 16:21:26


Post by: Shieldwolf Miniatures


I read comments like the one below in this KS

Kin about 1 hour ago
"I hope @Load will deliver this on time as promise before the holidays and that will once and for all put Archon name out there as the only Kickstarter that will deliver on time."

And I'm like... *facepalm*

Btw just like @Artemis I can't know if this Archon will deliver or not, but should it not it will certainly burn the company down forever. Or so I think :-)
Edit: Which means they have a really serious reason to see this through...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 16:33:41


Post by: Prestor Jon


 Grot 6 wrote:
I don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. they have the miniatures production capability, the game looked set, why so much drama for so little product?


While I wasn't going to back this for several reasons, one of those reasons was that the game itself seems to be the weakest part of LOAD. The rules were plagiarised and from reviews of AvP those rules are terrible and I've seen/heard mixed things about WarZone. I don't really need a big pile of more minatures just to add to the unpainted pile but that would be worth it if I thought the gameplay would be good. I have strong doubts of Prodos/Archon/whoever having the ability to write a cogent, well written, simple ruleset and the fact that they are asking for extensive volunteer playtesting while the kickstarter is ongoing (coupled with the plagiarism) give me real doubts that this game will play well out of the box and I don't have the time or inclination to house rule a bunch of stuff. I think Prodos/Archon will get the game made and shipped but I am not optimistic that people will be impressed at all at how much fun it will be to try to play it.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 17:01:24


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Thanks for the info about WarZone - I never dealt with them, so that was news to me.

Interesting how CMoN managed to simply step past it with their Zombicide successes.

Unlike Prodos / Archon / LoadBoardGame / whatever the hell they'll call themselves next.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 17:13:39


Post by: RiTides


They didn't step past it, really - it was a huge issue at the time, just like Maelstrom Games folding and taking a lot of people's money with it (with similar massive sales right at the end, and no follow up / refunds).

Both companies recovered in their new forms because they deliver well and make fantastic products... so, I hope Archon can do that, eventually, as well. Despite their terrible PR, as another poster noted they've actually continued to communicate and deliver, unlike the above two examples. I've backed, and will continue to do so, all 3 companies (in fact, I'll have backed one campaign for each just this month ).

But I don't think it's possible to completely vilify one and give the others a pass, when all went through a similar rough patch - it just remains to be seen if Prodos/Archon can come out the other side. I think they can, but a lot will hinge on how they deliver Load!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 17:17:42


Post by: Alpharius


That's all well and good, and they might still be able to repair their image, but it would be nice if Prodos was spending a little bit more time/effort/money on improving things/fixing past mistakes vs. how they set up running this KS.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2007/06/08 17:26:00


Post by: RiTides


That's definitely true! And hopefully they will do so with this campaign ending. Even if it's not direct, the pledges and funding from this will have to help with finishing off AvP delivery, which they've stated is mostly stalled due to funding (the person who bought my pledge just made a purchase from their webstore so they could ship his altogether, as they've offered to backers. Not ideal, but lets them get it shipped!).


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:03:39


Post by: Shadow Walker


Funded with 1,558 backers and 215,471 $


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:15:00


Post by: JoeRugby


Well good luck to all you backers, hopefully Prodos prove us skeptics wrong. And they deliver without the lies and other rubbish that's happened with with AVP


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:28:59


Post by: Shadow Walker


Wow, some backers really believe that Archon and Prodos are separate
Quote from KS: ''Zholtar unfortunately Deadwood is still pledged. Funny little guy that he is. Still thinks Archon is Prodos! Ah well. Atleast he'll be here when we are all talking about receiving our games. ''
The thread for AvP is 251 pages long. Let the drama begin ...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:29:48


Post by: Alpharius


What a...fascinating finish!

I'd say I'd love to see a Buzzsaw-style Post-KS analysis here, but there aren't any real mysteries to solve.

This campaign backslid so hard that they effectively didn't add any new backers outside of Day 2, and no significant funds outside of Day 4!

But, at the end of the day, we're a community of gamers here, so I do genuinely hope that Prodos now has their act together, and all the backers get what they pledged for and are happy with it - best of luck everyone!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:36:19


Post by: RiTides


Appreciate the well wishes on our (the backers) behalf, guys . Will certainly let you know how it goes! I hope really well, we'll see


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 18:43:54


Post by: Dark Severance


Final stats and tally since it is interesting (at least to me). It ended with 1558 backers at a total of $215,471

$99 Pledge - 939 backers ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $104229(US)-$116436(RoW)
$99 Pledge - 203 backers ($111 US, $124 RoW) - $22533(US)-$25172(RoW)
$249 Pledge - 196 backers ($261 US, $274 RoW) - $51156(US)-$53704(RoW)
$499 Pledge - 22 backers ($517 US, $530 RoW) - $11374(US)-$11660(RoW)
$999 Pledge - 9 backers ($1017 US, $1030 RoW) - $9153(US)-$9270(RoW)

That accounts for 1369 backers giving us an accountable range (not including $1 pledges) of $198,445(US/CA) - $216,242(RoW). That means at least 189 are unknown pledge levels, most likely $1 pledges that people dropped to. They'll wait to see how things turn out and then when the pledge manager comes out, have the ability to upgrade. There are also those that are just in for updates to track how the drama continues to unfold.

Top Cities where backers come from:
London, United Kingdom - 26 backers
Sydney, Australia - 26 backers
Seoul, South Korea - 19 backers
Singapore, Singapore - 15 backers
Los Angeles, United States - 15 backers
Paris, France - 14 backers
Madrid, Spain - 12 backers
Toronto, Canada - 11 backers
Vienna, Austria - 11 backers
Brisbane, Australia - 11 backers

Top Countries where backers come from:
United States - 655 backers
Germany - 128 backers
United Kingdom - 122 backers
Canada - 95 backers
Australia - 72 backers
France - 65 backers
Spain - 54 backers
Italy - 41 backers
Belgium - 28 backers
South Korea - 22 backers

81 backers are new to Kickstarter, never backing a Kickstarter project before.
1,477 backers have backed Kickstarter projects before.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 20:24:49


Post by: Sometime


 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
My issue with CMON was them selling the first boxes of zombiecide before delivering to backers.

I contacted them and complained about them selling before delivering to backers and they mocked me, refunded me and sold my pledge.

Saints compared to Prodos, but CMON are another company who don't deserve my money.
Proper bunch of wet ding dongs.

Panic...


Your tune seems have changed - I was on the same campaign, and you posted on the Zombicide comments section that they OFFERED you a full refund, which you accepted. You're making it out as if they forced you to take your money back. Seems pretty reasonable to me - if you don't like the way they run things, they return your money. Which is a far sight better than a lot of other campaigns.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 20:34:29


Post by: Panic


Yeah,
I contacted them saying that selling to public who haven't invested in the project before backers who paid months earlier was unfair.

They hadn't set a date for when we would get our stuff?
I got frustrated and asked for a refund.

They publicly mocked me for asking for my money back.
As in I should be grateful for being a KS backer and lucky that I would get product?
After the general public at gen con?

It was very unprofessional.

Panic...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 20:39:05


Post by: JohnHwangDD


All I know is that I received both Zombicide 2 and Zombicide 3 *before* their estimated delivery date.

Also that CMoN now no longer promises that backers will receive first.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 21:29:34


Post by: Artemis Black


 Alpharius wrote:
What a...fascinating finish!

I'd say I'd love to see a Buzzsaw-style Post-KS analysis here, but there aren't any real mysteries to solve.

This campaign backslid so hard that they effectively didn't add any new backers outside of Day 2, and no significant funds outside of Day 4!


It's a little worse than that as most of the positive gains are the painting pledges. Over 15k of the final tally is for the painting company, they'd have ended under 200k if they hadn't added those.

I also think that's where problems will occur. That painting company now has to paint over 3500 minis, including a 'lot' of very large ones fr that $15k. That is one piss poor rate, it's an insane discount on their regular pricing. Will be interesting to see if pledgers do get 'standard quality'.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 21:34:27


Post by: Theophony


It's not blue table painting is it?


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 21:38:11


Post by: Artemis Black


 Theophony wrote:
It's not blue table painting is it?


It's Awaken Realms, a Polish studio. They are also running their own, more successful, Kickstarter I believe based on that depressing video game whose name I forget


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/08 21:43:46


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Artemis Black wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
It's not blue table painting is it?


It's Awaken Realms, a Polish studio. They are also running their own, more successful, Kickstarter I believe based on that depressing video game whose name I forget


He was obviously being facetious. Google "Blue Table Painting Kickstarter" to see why.

If only Prodos had used Defiance Games as their US agent...


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/09 01:53:46


Post by: CptJake


 RiTides wrote:



But I don't think it's possible to completely vilify one and give the others a pass, when all went through a similar rough patch - it just remains to be seen if Prodos/Archon can come out the other side. I think they can, but a lot will hinge on how they deliver Load!


Delivering LOAD if there are AvP backers still waiting on product won't save them. If they deliver LOAD and the game sucks, regardless of the figures, it will not save them but MAY force them to embrace the role of Figure Maker rather than game designers.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/09 08:26:55


Post by: Piston Honda


 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
My issue with CMON was them selling the first boxes of zombiecide before delivering to backers.

I contacted them and complained about them selling before delivering to backers and they mocked me, refunded me and sold my pledge.

Saints compared to Prodos, but CMON are another company who don't deserve my money.
Proper bunch of wet ding dongs.

Panic...


Wet ding dongs is the best phrase I've heard this year. I'm going to use that.

As for Prodos, always thought they were a UK company, I only have experience from them from a 3rd party via Miniature-13. From their website (Prodos) they conduct work in the UK, US and Poland.



LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/09 08:39:41


Post by: Artemis Black


 Piston Honda wrote:
 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
My issue with CMON was them selling the first boxes of zombiecide before delivering to backers.

I contacted them and complained about them selling before delivering to backers and they mocked me, refunded me and sold my pledge.

Saints compared to Prodos, but CMON are another company who don't deserve my money.
Proper bunch of wet ding dongs.

Panic...


Wet ding dongs is the best phrase I've heard this year. I'm going to use that.

As for Prodos, always thought they were a UK company, I only have experience from them from a 3rd party via Miniature-13. From their website (Prodos) they conduct work in the UK, US and Poland.



They're Polish. They had a UK office and have had UK partners etc. and now they have a US office but they're just 'offices' in the sense that they exist legally and are usually just a mail forwarding office for such a purpose. It allows you to operate on Kickstarter in pounds or dollars.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/09 08:53:49


Post by: Shieldwolf Miniatures


@Piston Honda

What @Artemis Black wrote, we searched this option in order to do something similar (so we could to operate a KS in GBP via a shell company of ours based in the UK) but at the end we found out it really wasn't worth the trouble.

As a side note, on the plus side the brittish accountant office we were in negotiations with informed us that this allowed the shell company a number of legal windows in distributing liabilities to the shell coorporation itself not-tied-with-the-mother-company-whatsoever; this is something which we really couldn't care less about since in our opinion a project creator must always hold himself liable regardless of legal windows available. It's not about being able to get away with it, it is about trust and that must be always honored.
Anyway, like I said this was really not worth going through with so we abbandoned the idea.

Now that this KS campaign is over, we hope all goes well with Archon and backers (and that means all backers, both current and previous) get what they pledged for. Good luck to everyone, here's hoping for the best! :-)


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 0003/06/09 08:54:32


Post by: richred_uk


 Piston Honda wrote:

Wet ding dongs is the best phrase I've heard this year. I'm going to use that.

As for Prodos, always thought they were a UK company, I only have experience from them from a 3rd party via Miniature-13. From their website (Prodos) they conduct work in the UK, US and Poland.



Prodos Games Ltd (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08373380/filing-history) is a UK registered company that used to have a physical base in the UK but no longer does - the registered address is a post box service, There are no physical operations or employees in the UK, all employees and operations are now in Poland - all the UK and US based employees have either left or been dismissed. This is the company that licences Warzone and AvP and ran those Kickstarters. Initially this company claimed to own the Unicast production system and to have 30+ employees, it now claims to have only 4 employees.

Archon (http://www.krs-online.com.pl/archon-sp-z-o-o-krs-1325062.html) is a Polish based company whose shares are owned by Prodos Games Ltd, and some of the parents of the 2 directors of Prodos Games Ltd (going from memory on this so open to the exact ownership being very slightly different from this and happy to correct). This is the company that is running the Load kickstarter via a guy in Chicago calling himself CritonHit Games (Mihajlo Vlaskovic) - I don't believe this is a registered company. It is now claimed that Archon owns the Unicast production system and has 30 employees. Archon supposedly does the casting work for Prodos and a number of other companies, I'm not sure of this is just for Unicast or also the more traditional resin casting that Prodos uses and has undertaken for other parties.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/06/13 08:44:26


Post by: Mymearan


 Artemis Black wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
It's not blue table painting is it?


It's Awaken Realms, a Polish studio. They are also running their own, more successful, Kickstarter I believe based on that depressing video game whose name I forget


Awaken Realms? They are amazing painters, some of the best imo. Would be very sad to see them go under from something like this.


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2016/11/04 08:24:09


Post by: ced1106


Well, lookee here!

We are full in production, which is going as planned! Once it is finalized we will start preparing for shipping.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1721541

Next hurdle: The BGG "gameplay not miniatures" reviews.

MOD: Please move this topic to Other Boardgames. Thanks!

(Me, I cut off the C-note spigot from First Created KS's when my Z:BP mini's came in. And, yes, I haven't painted or played the game yet!


LOAD board game kickstarter @ 2017/05/12 10:35:13


Post by: Johanxp


Received my pledge 2 weeks ago.

Beautiful product with great minis.

And I must admit it plays well and it is great fun.

Did someone played Load here?