HQ2: Tigurius -165
HQ3: librarian, bike, lvl2, force axe -110
HQ4: librarian, bike, lvl2, forceaxe -110
HQ5: librarian, bike, lvl2, force axe -110
HQ6: librarian, bike, lvl2, force axe -110
Not only is it on a top ETC list but it came first place at a rather competitive tournament in the UK. To me it looks like a pile of crap, but someone must have an idea about how it works...
My guess is that the Wolf pack merges into 1 unit and EVERY thing but the scouts joins that unit. Everyon gets a 4++ from Azrael. Buff the heck out of it (probably get Gate, Invis or both) and go to town.
Need to split off to get a Malestrom objective? Half of your ICs are on bikes
It's not a bad list, but it's more of a "Spoiler" army than a true competitive TAC army
Does this let you combine the wolves into one unit?
Can you later split them off, if yes?
I don't believe it can split off in later turns, but during deployment all Wolf units can combine into a single unit. The unit gains Outflank and Monster Hunter and as long as the unit has 20+ models, they get +1 atk This list is clearly meant to be 1 big-@$$ deatstar that gets buffed by all the Psykers.
Oh, and Azrael make this unit hard to kill. He gives any unit he joins a 4++, and he gets to pick his WL trait from the DA table, on of which gives his unit FNP within 3" of an objective. Since the unit is so freaking big, they'll always be in that range. Playing Kill Points you say? Well He'll just pick Furious charge, or one of the other really good DAWL traits
The more I look into this list, the more I'm think it's the best Death star in all of 40K.
Does this let you combine the wolves into one unit?
Can you later split them off, if yes?
I don't believe it can split off in later turns, but during deployment all Wolf units can combine into a single unit. The unit gains Outflank and Monster Hunter and as long as the unit has 20+ models, they get +1 atk This list is clearly meant to be 1 big-@$$ deatstar that gets buffed by all the Psykers.
Oh, and Azrael make this unit hard to kill. He gives any unit he joins a 4++, and he gets to pick his WL trait from the DA table, on of which gives his unit FNP within 3" of an objective. Since the unit is so freaking big, they'll always be in that range. Playing Kill Points you say? Well He'll just pick Furious charge, or one of the other really good DAWL traits
The more I look into this list, the more I'm think it's the best Death star in all of 40K.
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Yeah its pretty absurd. Imagine that 4++ bumped to 3++ or the entire thing having 4+ FNP from Endurance. Cast hammer hand and combine with Furious Charge and all of a sudden those masses of dogs should reliably down just about anything. Not to mention the wyrdstorm pumping out 5-6 D6 S7 ignores cover shots a turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With Tigurious you're more or less bound to get Invis or Endurance what ever you're after. Not to mention the new SM power that lets the entire unit reroll all saved. Sanctuary and the reroll power alone make it absurdly hard to remove. Good luck getting through 50 bodies with a 3++ rerollable
Ahhh I see, it's one of those soon-to-be-omni-presence-at-every single-event-god-help-us-all armies. I don't get the rune-priests though, couldn't you just throw in 2 TW-WGBL instead?
Rune Priests are the SW psychers IIRC. Gets more dice and more chances at a critical power if you manage to screw it up with the conclave or more rolls on auxilary tables for stuff like hammerhand, vortex etc once you've got Invis/Endurance/Null Zone/Veil of Time etc.
Sammael - hit and run plus an eternal warrior tank
Azrael - huge range of buffs already mentioned, notably the 4++ for the whole unit
Secondary detachment -librarius conclave - Tiggy can roll pretty much what ever you need and I would expect fulmination or geomancy to feature once the obligatory invisibility was gained
Tertiary detachment -wyrdstorm brotherhood - a multitude of S7 lightning shots a turn plus rolls on biomancy, plus rerolls to charge thanks to the junp packs! ... nuff said
Quarternary formation -wolfkin formation - wall of ablative wounds to start but with buffs from biomancy or sanctic, will be very painful to put down.
The scouts are the tax for this monster unit of doom! The table space it takes up is huge, the infantry that join it don't really slow it thanks to the number of models and its all but immune to most enemy it will face. Its a super horrid death star!
And this is why you talk with your opponent beforehand about the kind of game you both want.
I hope the bar bark star (really?) does good at ETC, it's something new. And very reliable since it can start with 4++/FNP (5+), unlike most stars which have to use a psychic phase to buff up. Good job by the designer of the list.
The weakness is tau and celexus assasin. Also any other army with mass shooting like eldar jetbikes going first. They will lose more than 50% of their dogs turn 1 unless you have night fight and sammuel tanks like a boss.
Does this let you combine the wolves into one unit?
Can you later split them off, if yes?
I don't believe it can split off in later turns, but during deployment all Wolf units can combine into a single unit. The unit gains Outflank and Monster Hunter and as long as the unit has 20+ models, they get +1 atk This list is clearly meant to be 1 big-@$$ deatstar that gets buffed by all the Psykers.
Oh, and Azrael make this unit hard to kill. He gives any unit he joins a 4++, and he gets to pick his WL trait from the DA table, on of which gives his unit FNP within 3" of an objective. Since the unit is so freaking big, they'll always be in that range. Playing Kill Points you say? Well He'll just pick Furious charge, or one of the other really good DAWL traits
The more I look into this list, the more I'm think it's the best Death star in all of 40K.
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Yeah its pretty absurd. Imagine that 4++ bumped to 3++ or the entire thing having 4+ FNP from Endurance. Cast hammer hand and combine with Furious Charge and all of a sudden those masses of dogs should reliably down just about anything. Not to mention the wyrdstorm pumping out 5-6 D6 S7 ignores cover shots a turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With Tigurious you're more or less bound to get Invis or Endurance what ever you're after. Not to mention the new SM power that lets the entire unit reroll all saved. Sanctuary and the reroll power alone make it absurdly hard to remove. Good luck getting through 50 bodies with a 3++ rerollable
Thanks for that breakdown.
Ugh. What a nasty list! Congrats to the tournament winner, though.
People should keep in mind ETC is a team tournament when looking at the lists. Most lists have glaring weakness against some other lists because they know they don't have to play against those.
This bark bark star looks great for all-around though. Probably first pick for the team.
The mass of dogs is the huge threat here and the thunderfire cannons (from the SM codex) can reliably take it down with 4 blasts per thunderfire cannons. I cant see this getting far in a competitive tournament?(obviously it did but call me confused)
it is very weak to blast and superior maneuverability. hell throw all your anti tank at the psykers then move in for the kill
If someone were going to run a dogstar in an ITC event, which of the four detachments would they drop to do it? Or would it not work with only three detachments?
Jimsolo wrote: If someone were going to run a dogstar in an ITC event, which of the four detachments would they drop to do it? Or would it not work with only three detachments?
My guess would be the rune priests. You still have force weapons/higher strength with the axes on the conclave, and they will give you all the psycic buffs you need.
ironrain wrote: The mass of dogs is the huge threat here and the thunderfire cannons (from the SM codex) can reliably take it down with 4 blasts per thunderfire cannons. I cant see this getting far in a competitive tournament?(obviously it did but call me confused)
it is very weak to blast and superior maneuverability. hell throw all your anti tank at the psykers then move in for the kill
The small blasts will be lucky to hit 1-2 dogs with correct spacing then they have a 4++ save. This unit is super durable - far more than you might think. Scatbikes do a better job.
ironrain wrote: The mass of dogs is the huge threat here and the thunderfire cannons (from the SM codex) can reliably take it down with 4 blasts per thunderfire cannons. I cant see this getting far in a competitive tournament?(obviously it did but call me confused)
it is very weak to blast and superior maneuverability. hell throw all your anti tank at the psykers then move in for the kill
The small blasts will be lucky to hit 1-2 dogs with correct spacing then they have a 4++ save. This unit is super durable - far more than you might think. Scatbikes do a better job.
Plus you can't snap fire a Thunderfire cannon when invisibility is up
I think the only hard counter is a shooty army (Riptide wing, Jet-bike spam) either going first or seizing the initiative. Although saying that, even in the most grotesque scenario 36 S6 shots with possible marker light support is skill going to have to get through that 4++; that's around 12-16 dead wolves, out of 50.
Jimsolo wrote: If someone were going to run a dogstar in an ITC event, which of the four detachments would they drop to do it? Or would it not work with only three detachments?
My guess would be the rune priests. You still have force weapons/higher strength with the axes on the conclave, and they will give you all the psycic buffs you need.
Definitely drop the Rune Priests. The Librarian Conclave makes them redundant. To make up the points, I'd add more Scouts (for objectives), maybe Drop pods for them, another bike HQ from the DACAD would be good to add some punch the Star, then add more wolves for lulz.
I think the only hard counter is a shooty army (Riptide wing, Jet-bike spam) either going first or seizing the initiative. Although saying that, even in the most grotesque scenario 36 S6 shots with possible marker light support is skill going to have to get through that 4++; that's around 12-16 dead wolves, out of 50.
Well the thing is you have to fish for hammer hand, machine flense/curse, you may not get them especially if Tiggy had to use up all his re-roll choices to get invis or veil.
Well there are a lot of other psykers and if you're facing 3 knights, invis may not be that useful. The list is flexible but if you're going with a single set strategy against every army youre going to loose at some point down the road.
I think the only hard counter is a shooty army (Riptide wing, Jet-bike spam) either going first or seizing the initiative. Although saying that, even in the most grotesque scenario 36 S6 shots with possible marker light support is skill going to have to get through that 4++; that's around 12-16 dead wolves, out of 50.
Depending on what your objectives are, a household detachment of knights also has a decent chance in a format like Nova's IF the knights can get to the objectives before the dogs block them. The sheer space the unit will take up means you can effectively deny most obsec units access to the objectives.
Very scary list, even when going first or seizing I'm wondering just how much damage I'd be able to do, and even with my 17-21 warp Charges I don't know if I'd be able to block enough/ any of the more important buffs this needs.
Also, Azrael can give the unit FC, meaning that without any psy buffs, the unit will very likely take down a WK through weight of dice and Monster Hunter. VS IKs, you really can just fish for Hammerhand, hoping to get Sanctuary in the process. With the amount of Psykers he has he should be able to get HH and Invis or Veil with regularity.
People who think Wyverns or TFCs will dent this are out of their minds. The only way you are going to beat that unit with Barrage blasts is if you have invested the vast majority of your points into them and happen to go first. Keep in mind, Azrael gives +1 to Seize which goes up to 4+ if you have a Super Heavy or Gargantuan.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*starts slow clap*
*not ironically*
Seriously one of the best, most concise, unbiased breakdowns of Uber Death Star lists, why they are good (at winning, not for the game) and how to play against them that I have seen in a long time.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
I'll agree with most of what was said. The only part where I disagree is a scorpion will get into combat with any star (short of Eldar Seercouncil if they turboboost all game). However, the scorpion will get a few sixes on stomps throughout the game. With averages, that's 2 rounds of combat to get a single six. If the deathstar is positioned PERFECTLY (which isn't always possible with random charge ranges and pile-ins) you can LOS a stomp to an ablative wound. The scorpion only needs 1 or 2 solid hits with a 6 before a star starts falling apart. A veteran scorpion user will stomp out the correct targets. They can choose from stomping the high strength, the key psykers, hit and run models, Azreal, etc. There are a lot of options for him to pick from.
I've ran Wolfstar with DA friends for awhile and a scorpion always ruins my day. With Nova's S9 hammers (don't ask why they haven't made it S10 TWC), 3 Ironpriests isn't enough on averages to kill a scorpion even with Chappy rerolls to hit. The scorpion will eventually get into a position where he only need a solid 6 on a stomp and he's going to hurt the star. Even with hit and run with a 4d6 movement (from the banner), it's 14" away on average and a 12" movement, the scorpion will catch back up again with its 3d6 charge range (with a Fatey reroll). Short of using a psychic power to push the Deathstar/Scorpion away, the scorpion will catch back up. Also, if the Deathstar is running straight away from the scorpion, the star isn't assaulting much else that next turn without remaining in the scorpion's threat range.
That's just my experience. Then again, I play in a gaming group that runs a Scorpion.
Please note, my experience comes from the more standard 3 IPs, 12 puppies, 3 Libbies (Conclave), Azreal, and 3 RW Command Bikes version of the star. The Barkstar with 80+ wolves is harder to chew through via Scorpion, however, hit and run isn't a very viable strategy against the scorpion as the footprint of said star is too large to HnR past the scorpion itself. You most like would have to hit and run backwards or close to it.
Jimsolo wrote: If someone were going to run a dogstar in an ITC event, which of the four detachments would they drop to do it? Or would it not work with only three detachments?
My guess would be the rune priests. You still have force weapons/higher strength with the axes on the conclave, and they will give you all the psycic buffs you need.
Definitely drop the Rune Priests. The Librarian Conclave makes them redundant. To make up the points, I'd add more Scouts (for objectives), maybe Drop pods for them, another bike HQ from the DACAD would be good to add some punch the Star, then add more wolves for lulz.
--
Add a DA Interrogator-chaplain on a bike for Zealot lolz!
A lot of you here are not understanding what the Rune Priests do in this list. Some of you say play the mission and ignore the star...I say how do you ignore a star with a 30+ inch footprint moving 12 inches + run a turn and potential electrodisplacement?
As for the Rune Priests, they are neccesary for destroying any GMCS, Vehicles or super heavys:
lightning Power: With 4 RPs its providing 5d6 str 7 shots with Monster hunter, every 6 gives you 2 more shots, one RP has Helm of Durst for re-roll to hit and ignore cover. Now bare in mind you Pick a Rune Priest, so against Imperial knights, you choose the one which is in the arc with no shields. This DECIMATES knights and the like from afar, the star literaly sits their with its buffs and destroys the knight player from afar.
Just naming a few things. Ratlings and an all infantry imperial guard list, Just sheer wight of dice and sniping azrael could do it. Or burna boys in truks could ruin the day, from majority toughness. Or just throw it a sacrifice to tie it up, such as termies with TH/SS and crowe for 2+ invul, Or 20 necrons + lord in decurion to tie it up. Or Canoptec harvest. Or Imperial knights. Or most current dark eldar lists. Or most gargantuans. Then avoid it for the rest of the game and score objectives.
That list would be pretty funny to play with though. I would love to just see that many wolves on the table.
2-3 AV 12 skull cannons would also hold this unit up for a while, if not forever, assuming the grenade FAQ is in effect.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*starts slow clap*
*not ironically*
Seriously one of the best, most concise, unbiased breakdowns of Uber Death Star lists, why they are good (at winning, not for the game) and how to play against them that I have seen in a long time.
benjaw2 wrote: Just naming a few things. Ratlings and an all infantry imperial guard list, Just sheer wight of dice and sniping azrael could do it. Or burna boys in truks could ruin the day, from majority toughness. Or just throw it a sacrifice to tie it up, such as termies with TH/SS and crowe for 2+ invul, Or 20 necrons + lord in decurion to tie it up. Or Canoptec harvest. Or Imperial knights. Or most current dark eldar lists. Or most gargantuans. Then avoid it for the rest of the game and score objectives.
That list would be pretty funny to play with though. I would love to just see that many wolves on the table.
This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it. You'd usually drop the unnecessary runepriests and some of the other fat for wolfguard battle leaders or iron priests to get some ridiculous number of S10 AP 2 attacks. And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each. Those characters still get their attacks which will be rerrolling to hit and together with the MANY characters who survive will be hitting a bare minimum of 18 S10 AP 2 attacks just off the top of my head. Already that's enough to kill the scorpion and the knight behind it with decent pen rolls but with the anti-armor psychic powers existing, not to mention something like hammerhand, you'd lose anything you charged into it like you threw your model out the window.
A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments and why people who go to big competitive events walk away with a sour taste. If you hit it head on you WILL lose your entire army, I don't care if you have 4 brass scorpions or 8 Lord of skulls.
To beat lists like this you ignore the whole star and play the mission, feed it units you don't care about and camp objectives, hit it strategically when you can and if you do nuke his only psyker with Veil somehow, then you can start shaving wounds off of it. Kill whatever support it has and stretch it out until he makes a mistake and you can target down something vital (an exposed character who's only look out sir target is another important character). If you have your own deathstar neither of your are probably gonna die so try to use the fact that he has so little support to outmanuever him. But most importantly remember this isn't seer star where a culexus can drop down and nuke the whole squad by himself, the best you can hope for is a culexus to give you area control and some room to breathe.
*Continues Slow Clap *
I don't understand how you slow clapped the post and then completely ignored the meat of it. You can't just "tie it up" It will hit and run 3D6, move 12, then assault 2D6 to assault the rest of your army.
"A star like this CAN NOT be killed once the powers are up and will NEVER die to 1 turn of shooting. Charge it with your brass scorpion or lord of skulls or skull cannons, not only does it have H&R but, built correctly, can gib all of those things in a turn. This kind of thinking is why stars dominate the mid tier of competitive tournaments"
This is why msu armies have to be so fast. So they can avoid a death star until turn 3. If it catches part of your army in a corner on turn 3 then you'll do alright because it won't have time to kill everything. If you assault it then it either gets a free consolidation move or a free hit and run, move, and assault. The only thing that can hold up to a death star like this is 2+ rerollable or invis with a 2+, or a superheavy/gmc with invis. Even then I had a 2+ rerollable screamerstar run over in one turn one of these.
You don't "assault" the unit in your turn. You place a "net" unit right in front of them so that they either have to ignore it and have to use some of that movement to go around it, or they charge it and waste their 12" move.
Drop pod armies can do this pretty well. Bike armies certainly could by turboboosting a bike unit (of 2 since the star is so large) 1" in front of them an moving the rest of their army away. Losing 1-2 cheap bike unit to make sure the star only gets a charge move and consolidate is worth it. Even better if he decides NOT to charge with the wolves, but instead he awkwardly moves around them or breaks off a few ICs to deal with your rod block.
My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
True, but they should need more than 18 dice to stop a summoning so if nothing else you'll eat a huge portion of their dice. That's when you hit em with the the terrify and dominate! Most imperial death stars rely on conclave so they don't actually have that many deny dice.
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
The list doesn't actually have that many WC (especially the 3 source version you're likely to see at most events in the US) so if you've got a decent debuff power (dominate, Null zone, etc.) and save a couple dice for that he prob won't even try to deny summoning. That said, blocking 16" of the board doesn't really matter too much to this army. It's big enough that it'll just multi charge the screen plus whatever isn't directly behind the screening unit and pick up a few free KPs from the seekers. Or if the screeners are too close to whatever is behind them, shriek/electrosurge/cleansing flame will usually clear out enough to charge past them. And I speak from experience, I used the 3 source version at ATC this year (you drop the priests and add 20 more dogs and a DA Chaplin). The actual footprint of the unit is kind of hard to comprehend until you see the army on the table, with scout plus first turn (which it usually gets thanks to Azzy) it can put itself in position to charge any point on the table T2. Also keep in mind that if you're screening and running from the army you're losing board position in a pretty serious way.
It varies a little depending on which FAQ you're using but the things that worry me with this army are:
- Culexus + iKnights/Eldar/Tau
- The Masque + lots of LoS blocking terrain
- Absurd Barrage spam that might snipe the Libs with good powers or Azzy (like renegades with 10 wyverns and 12 thudd guns, or eldar with 3+ warp hunters, a couple thunderfires won't bother me at all)
Here's a pic of the unit from one of my ATC games (against a Murderhorde and 3 Thirsters) it's pretty bunched up since I was set to receive a charge, but if you double that area it kind of gives you an idea of how much ground it can cover with 1.5-2" spacing. Also this is midway through the bottom of T1, and as you can see I'm pretty much on his deployment line.
Not the oddest but one that made me giggle, a white scare army with a raven wings strike force where they ran only dark shouds and white scare bikes so they all got 2+ rerolls
vercingatorix wrote: My favorite unit for this is summoning a unit of seekers. It's super fragile so if they assault it they won't get a hit and run and with the run move plus they're huge bases they can make a 16 inch line pretty easily.
Never thought of this. Nice. The only issue with it is that with so many psykers in the star, getting off the summoning might be hard
The list doesn't actually have that many WC (especially the 3 source version you're likely to see at most events in the US) so if you've got a decent debuff power (dominate, Null zone, etc.) and save a couple dice for that he prob won't even try to deny summoning. That said, blocking 16" of the board doesn't really matter too much to this army. It's big enough that it'll just multi charge the screen plus whatever isn't directly behind the screening unit and pick up a few free KPs from the seekers. Or if the screeners are too close to whatever is behind them, shriek/electrosurge/cleansing flame will usually clear out enough to charge past them. And I speak from experience, I used the 3 source version at ATC this year (you drop the priests and add 20 more dogs and a DA Chaplin). The actual footprint of the unit is kind of hard to comprehend until you see the army on the table, with scout plus first turn (which it usually gets thanks to Azzy) it can put itself in position to charge any point on the table T2. Also keep in mind that if you're screening and running from the army you're losing board position in a pretty serious way.
It varies a little depending on which FAQ you're using but the things that worry me with this army are:
- Culexus + iKnights/Eldar/Tau
- The Masque + lots of LoS blocking terrain
- Absurd Barrage spam that might snipe the Libs with good powers or Azzy (like renegades with 10 wyverns and 12 thudd guns, or eldar with 3+ warp hunters, a couple thunderfires won't bother me at all)
Here's a pic of the unit from one of my ATC games (against a Murderhorde and 3 Thirsters) it's pretty bunched up since I was set to receive a charge, but if you double that area it kind of gives you an idea of how much ground it can cover with 1.5-2" spacing. Also this is midway through the bottom of T1, and as you can see I'm pretty much on his deployment line.
Thanks for the picture and info. That does look pretty intimidating. I did forget about scout. So annoying!
I'm trying out murderhorde now, how did it do against you? I would hope that that many attacks combined with thirsters would do something.
If all the murder horde charges they get 160 attacks. 130ish hit after re-rolls, 85ish at strength 5. Assuming you have a re-rollable 4+ from veil that should kill 20 dogs. Then thirsters kill 5 more or so.
Assuming you don't have fnp on top of that.
Yeah, I guess that's not too much damage considering you've got 50 more dogs and the dogs have pretty much shot their bolt.
What I've done in the past against the cabal + hounds star, which admittedly had a smaller footprint, is summon the seekers on one diagonal of the star. The seekers spread out are actually 20 inches assuming your roll more than a 1 with fleet on your run, then its 18 inches. So I create a screen on one side of the board and cede the other half. Then my monsters fly, then when they get close again to my corner I summon a unit to block base to base. Then I either suck it up and get charged and hope for my 2+ re-rollable or make yet another escape by moving and turbo boosting out of the corner and making another protected pocket. It's an extremely annoying tactic, and if you have a paradox staff, not that psychically expensive as its only 5 of my 23+d6 dice.
For you armies that can't put a disposable unit in the way. Good luck, I don't know how you deal with this.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
The murder horde did kill a bunch of dogs, but I killed more and won combat by a lot, then most of the rest exploded to instability and I cleaned everything up T2 I think. Wolves have counter attack so 4 attacks each if you charge them. Combined with rerolls from the chap and S6... Lots of damage output. It's not a sure thing but Demoncurion player with fatey can go for the 11 on the warp storm. If you nuke the right Lib things can change a lot (although it's still a very tough unit even without psychics)
DarknessEternal wrote: The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
I addition LoS as was mentioned before, only pile-in moves force you to move directly towards the enemy, and the unit can HnR out to re-form and back the characters up again if combat lasts that long. When you charge the characters can actually end up moving backwards if you want. Any model that won't be able to make base contact or get within 2" of a dog in B2B just has to maintain coherency when charging (so can move in any direction), that's why stringing out for crazy multi assaults is actually not that hard with this army.
Here's another picture, this time from my game against Frontline Gaming's Frankie and his monster mash Tau. I seized (on a 4+), scouted and moved up to his deployment line, completely blocking off the width of the table since it was hammer and anvil deployment. This is during his turn (I think the Surges just shot me) but as you can see the characters are nowhere near stomp range, and the really important ones are prob on my back table edge waaaay out of range. His surges got a few rounds of stomps in before they died (I didn't get hammerhand so it took a few rounds to kill them), but they absolutely never had characters anywhere close to being in range.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: The murder horde did kill a bunch of dogs, but I killed more and won combat by a lot, then most of the rest exploded to instability and I cleaned everything up T2 I think. Wolves have counter attack so 4 attacks each if you charge them. Combined with rerolls from the chap and S6... Lots of damage output. It's not a sure thing but Demoncurion player with fatey can go for the 11 on the warp storm. If you nuke the right Lib things can change a lot (although it's still a very tough unit even without psychics)
DarknessEternal wrote: The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
I addition LoS as was mentioned before, only pile-in moves force you to move directly towards the enemy, and the unit can HnR out to re-form and back the characters up again if combat lasts that long. When you charge the characters can actually end up moving backwards if you want. Any model that won't be able to make base contact or get within 2" of a dog in B2B just has to maintain coherency when charging (so can move in any direction), that's why stringing out for crazy multi assaults is actually not that hard with this army.
Here's another picture, this time from my game against Frontline Gaming's Frankie and his monster mash Tau. I seized (on a 4+), scouted and moved up to his deployment line, completely blocking off the width of the table since it was hammer and anvil deployment. This is during his turn (I think the Surges just shot me) but as you can see the characters are nowhere near stomp range, and the really important ones are prob on my back table edge waaaay out of range. His surges got a few rounds of stomps in before they died (I didn't get hammerhand so it took a few rounds to kill them), but they absolutely never had characters anywhere close to being in range.
I think that with the right list Tau would probably be able to take on this star before it got to assault range. Maybe using a Kroot Conga Line around the main bulk of the army - only problem would be is cover save from intervening model. Supporting fire would do well with the correct amount of markerlight support. I'll see if I can come up with a list to counter the star.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
I understand it is counter to RAW. However, GW themselves appear to agree with it. From their own Draft FAQ's:
Q: Can ‘Look Out, Sir’ attempts be made against Stomp attacks?
A: Yes.
ERJAK wrote: And here's the thing right, so lets say you stomp it 24 times right?(several turns even for the brass scorpion) that would mean out of 24 stomps, statistically 4 would do something useful, but you don't know which ones will be useful so you can't pre predict where the stomps will go and a good player won't get characters any closer to base to base than he has to so only half stomp out a character and even then they only stomp out 1 each.
The stomping player gets to place stomps where he wants. Also, the wolf-star player has no control over where his characters end up while in combat, the rules move them for him.
You can Look Out Sir stomp attacks so only 1 out of 36 stomps will flat out remove an Independent Character.
You can't Look Out Sir a removed from play result. On a 6, every model under the template is removed, no if's ands or buts.
In most tournament FAQ's in the US (like the ITC), you can.
"when a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters ...." So by the BRB you can't since a 6 on the stomp doesn't allocate a wound.
Seems kind of stupid for ITC to rule it otherwise, stomps are one of the only things keeping deathstars in check. In any case, you can't LoS it in ETC, so it depends on where you are playing.
I understand it is counter to RAW. However, GW themselves appear to agree with it. From their own Draft FAQ's:
Q: Can ‘Look Out, Sir’ attempts be made against Stomp attacks?
A: Yes.
That doesn't really support anything, you can look out sir any wounds taken from a stomp attack (2-5). If it's not a wound you can't look out sir it, except for different house rules of course.
That doesn't really support anything, you can look out sir any wounds taken from a stomp attack (2-5). If it's not a wound you can't look out sir it, except for different house rules of course.
The Draft FAQ answer was "Yes" not "Yes and no" or "Yes except for Stomp Attacks that roll 6".
Tech-Priest Dominus with Raiment of the Technomatyr
Two Units of Kastelans with 3 extra Kastelans added on each unit.
Exchange Powerfists into Twin-Linked Phosphor.
Keep the Carapace guns as the Incindie Combustors.
Arm one of the Datasmiths with a Mask of the Alpha Dominus
If they charge they take 30-60 auto hitting S4 AP 5 + 30 BS 2 Twin-Linked Strength 6 AP 3 Phosphor Blasters.
That doesn't really support anything, you can look out sir any wounds taken from a stomp attack (2-5). If it's not a wound you can't look out sir it, except for different house rules of course.
The Draft FAQ answer was "Yes" not "Yes and no" or "Yes except for Stomp Attacks that roll 6".
Yeah the draft FAQ answer was "Yes" you can look out sir stomp attacks. I'm not stopping you, you can look out sir any wounds allocated from a stomp attack. You literally have no mechanism to look out sir a 6, it's physically impossible within the rules.
Saying you can look out sir something that isn't an allocated wound, is like saying no-name tac marine wiith a melta bomb can look out sir stomps because the FAQ said "yes".
The criteria for look out sir are 1. be a character 2. be allocated a wound 3. have a non vehicle model from the same unit within 6". If you can't satisfy all 3, you can't look out sir. (houserules vary, i don't play ITC so i can't speak to it's rulings)
Look Out sir : "When a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters"
Stomp : "Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast template is removed as a casualty"
Those are both direct quotes. So yeah , you can look out sir all wounds allocated to your characters from a stomp attack.
That doesn't really support anything, you can look out sir any wounds taken from a stomp attack (2-5). If it's not a wound you can't look out sir it, except for different house rules of course.
The Draft FAQ answer was "Yes" not "Yes and no" or "Yes except for Stomp Attacks that roll 6".
Yeah the draft FAQ answer was "Yes" you can look out sir stomp attacks. I'm not stopping you, you can look out sir any wounds allocated from a stomp attack. You literally have no mechanism to look out sir a 6, it's physically impossible within the rules.
Saying you can look out sir something that isn't an allocated wound, is like saying no-name tac marine wiith a melta bomb can look out sir stomps because the FAQ said "yes".
The criteria for look out sir are 1. be a character 2. be allocated a wound 3. have a non vehicle model from the same unit within 6". If you can't satisfy all 3, you can't look out sir. (houserules vary, i don't play ITC so i can't speak to it's rulings)
Look Out sir : "When a wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters"
Stomp : "Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast template is removed as a casualty"
Those are both direct quotes. So yeah , you can look out sir all wounds allocated to your characters from a stomp attack.
Take it to YMDC boys. Stomps or no stomps, this FAQ or that FAQ, I think we can all agree the Bark Star, Wolftide, whatever you want to call it, is a force to be reckoned with for better or for worse.
I've played against the kennelstar before vs the guy who played it for team England at the etc as a practice game for him using 45 warp spiders and a wk. He didn't have tiggy though instead he had DA conclave with Ezekiel. As a side note he's a very very experienced player, arguably the best kennelstar player in the uk, but that's my opinion everyone's entitled to their own.
He put misfortune on my wraithknight and with 2 turns of lightning psychic power from the rune priests (using helm of durfast) my wk was dead. I couldn't hurt the star at all I didn't try to, azrael picked the warlord trait to give the unit FNP when within 3" of an objective, so all the time then. When you say stay away from from the star and play the mission, to give you a scale of this units footprint, he charged 2 of my units that were 60" away from each other. We used etc missions and the game ended 12-8 to him on turn 5, and I had bottom turn, it was the hardest game I've ever played, even then that result was the best result you can get when playing 45 spiders and a wk vs that list. Believe me it's that hard to beat it.
vercingatorix wrote: I don't know what the issue is, just tie it up with Morkanaught, maybe a Gorkanaught as well if you really want to put the hurt on it. Problem solved.
Is it Fearless? Can you do something weird like Hallucinate it?
Or reduce it's Ld and Dominate it?
Edit:
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Dominate for this scenario. If you can Horrify, Terrify or otherwise Ld. reduce bark bark, then Dominate it. It would be pretty great to see an army-wide unit stumble over itself to do anything. Bonus is that it would have to take a Ld. test every time it tries to cast a Psychic Power, so you could neuter some of it's buffs.
Even tho I play chaos I have always been envious of the IG's psykana division. If I had the time and money I would run 7 psykana divisions! Thats over 100 psyker models, over 35 warp charge points, harnessed on a 2+ at 1850 points! Can you imagine, 100 psykers flinging all of the spells it would be so much fun!
Insectum7 wrote: Is it Fearless? Can you do something weird like Hallucinate it?
Or reduce it's Ld and Dominate it?
Edit:
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Dominate for this scenario. If you can Horrify, Terrify or otherwise Ld. reduce bark bark, then Dominate it. It would be pretty great to see an army-wide unit stumble over itself to do anything. Bonus is that it would have to take a Ld. test every time it tries to cast a Psychic Power, so you could neuter some of it's buffs.
Would be cool but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's denying maledictions on 4s thanks to Tiggy
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Is it Fearless? Can you do something weird like Hallucinate it?
Or reduce it's Ld and Dominate it?
Edit:
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Dominate for this scenario. If you can Horrify, Terrify or otherwise Ld. reduce bark bark, then Dominate it. It would be pretty great to see an army-wide unit stumble over itself to do anything. Bonus is that it would have to take a Ld. test every time it tries to cast a Psychic Power, so you could neuter some of it's buffs.
Would be cool but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's denying maledictions on 4s thanks to Tiggy
Keep sending in loads of cheap Ordo Xenos Inquisitors with psychotroke grenades and hope for the 6 result? Of course that's not very practical in a tournament setting but I'm struggling to come up with anything.
Would be cool but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's denying maledictions on 4s thanks to Tiggy
If you are running your own Tigurius Conclave, or using a Farseer then it's a 5+ unless there's something I'm missing.
Warlock Conclave of over 7 bodies will have a ML of 3 as well, so you can go for Horrify.
If you can Horrify the bark bark, then Terrify it, it'll be at Ld 6. Then Dominate could be a real pain. You could use other Warlock Powers to De-buff the unit.
I think maybe a riptide wing plus a couple of stormsurges could do the trick - HOWEVER, it needs to get the first turn before powers go up. the sheer amount of ignores cover SMS shots should bring a number of the doggies down.
Would be cool but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's denying maledictions on 4s thanks to Tiggy
If you are running your own Tigurius Conclave, or using a Farseer then it's a 5+ unless there's something I'm missing.
In the original list posted the Rune Priests all have Ad Will. And in the 3 source version without priests there just might be an Artifact that gives Ad Will that a Barkstar player might take in order to avoid that exact terrify/horrify/dominate situation...
Nidzrule! wrote: I think maybe a riptide wing plus a couple of stormsurges could do the trick - HOWEVER, it needs to get the first turn before powers go up. the sheer amount of ignores cover SMS shots should bring a number of the doggies down.
Keep in mind that the dogs seize on a 4+ against that, so most of the time you won't get first turn. Also if the dogs hit Veil and Hammerhand I doubt going first will even be enough to save the tau, I think you kill around 35 dogs on average. Add a culexus to that Tau list and it's a different story for sure though.
In an imperial bunker with an escape hatch seems to be the way to go. Infiltrating him up is just asking to get the assassin charged and eaten by dogs. You've got to watch that 6" One Eye Open though. When I took the Barks to ATC that was definitely a match I wanted to avoid pairing against.
If you go the bunker route though watch what he rolls for his powers. Since I roll on sanctic a lot I usually end up with a Vortex of Doom or two. With a scout and 12" move I can usually get the bunker in range and a bunch of the damage results wil deal a pile of S6 hits to the assassin and kill him. So sometimes hanging out behind it is a better move.
Another thing that works well (but is absolutely back breaking to play, and also takes forever) is a fully loaded Drone farm Firestream piranha formation. Being able to recycle screening units like that makes it so the dogs can almost never get to your real units. Still might lose the mission though.
vercingatorix wrote: I don't know what the issue is, just tie it up with Morkanaught, maybe a Gorkanaught as well if you really want to put the hurt on it. Problem solved.
This is a joke right?
The only joke is how overpowered gorkanaughts are. Just unstoppable.
Armor 13, 5 HP. Can still explode with AP1 and AP2 weaponry.
I don't see how it's unstoppable.
Sternguard melta squads, Gravguns, Centurion Devastators would make short work of it. Hell, even an attack bike with a multi-melta can one shot the thing.
vercingatorix wrote: I don't know what the issue is, just tie it up with Morkanaught, maybe a Gorkanaught as well if you really want to put the hurt on it. Problem solved.
This is a joke right?
The only joke is how overpowered gorkanaughts are. Just unstoppable.
Yeah. It's really not fantastic. Don't know where you're getting your info from unfortunately.
vercingatorix wrote: I don't know what the issue is, just tie it up with Morkanaught, maybe a Gorkanaught as well if you really want to put the hurt on it. Problem solved.
This is a joke right?
The only joke is how overpowered gorkanaughts are. Just unstoppable.
Yeah. It's really not fantastic. Don't know where you're getting your info from unfortunately.
I really thought that calling a gorkanaught unstoppable would clue people in to the joke. I was wrong.
Would be cool but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's denying maledictions on 4s thanks to Tiggy
If you are running your own Tigurius Conclave, or using a Farseer then it's a 5+ unless there's something I'm missing.
In the original list posted the Rune Priests all have Ad Will. And in the 3 source version without priests there just might be an Artifact that gives Ad Will that a Barkstar player might take in order to avoid that exact terrify/horrify/dominate situation...
Ahh I see. Hmmm. Well a 4+ sure isn't a guarantee, but it's certainly not enough to rely on for the opposing side. . .
sfshilo wrote: What kind of TO lets this kind of garbage play?
Yeesh, four different detachments? Like 4 factions? This is dumb.
That makes the challenge of figuring out how to take it down more fun, IMO. It's a garbage list, sure, but if you can figure out a way to kill it with something that's not garbage. . . a gold star to you.
vercingatorix wrote: I don't know what the issue is, just tie it up with Morkanaught, maybe a Gorkanaught as well if you really want to put the hurt on it. Problem solved.
This is a joke right?
The only joke is how overpowered gorkanaughts are. Just unstoppable.
Yeah. It's really not fantastic. Don't know where you're getting your info from unfortunately.
I really thought that calling a gorkanaught unstoppable would clue people in to the joke. I was wrong.
There are a lot of odd ducks on Dakka. You should probably add or when you're joking.
Thanks for the reply - high level competitive play with good ideas. Wont be operating in those stratopheric levels but at least I have an idea of how to handle it!!
ERJAK wrote: This particular version of the bark bark star is not how you would usually run it.
That's probably because it's an ETC-specific version, and likely used as a hard counter to another list.
ETC40k is a team competition with multiple simultaneous games going on, and I would suspect that this list is used as an Attacker against a known Defender:
Note also that lists are published prior to the event, so each team knows whether a Culexus is present, and can probably avoid those particular matchups.
It's not a singles game, so it doesn't have to worry about being a true TAC army.
whembly wrote: Just got back from ITC tournament tonight...
Top table had barkstar vs. feth ton of renegade shooting (earth shaker, thudd guns, quad lasers, other gubbins+the Masque and nurglings.}
Renegade player shot all the shooty stuff... then, the Masque popped up and shook some T&A at the barkstar (D3" move/charge).
Barkstart conceded the game.
A 75pt model (masque) shut down the barkstar.
That's brilliant. Congrats to the player who thought that solution up.
Which will no longer work if the opponent has a plane. They'd feel really silly telling it to stop moving turn 4 when everything is basically dead already.
whembly wrote: Just got back from ITC tournament tonight...
Top table had barkstar vs. feth ton of renegade shooting (earth shaker, thudd guns, quad lasers, other gubbins+the Masque and nurglings.}
Renegade player shot all the shooty stuff... then, the Masque popped up and shook some T&A at the barkstar (D3" move/charge).
Barkstart conceded the game.
A 75pt model (masque) shut down the barkstar.
That's brilliant. Congrats to the player who thought that solution up.
Which will no longer work if the opponent has a plane. They'd feel really silly telling it to stop moving turn 4 when everything is basically dead already.
That list is more suited for ETC than ITC, a 3 formation barkstar is not as effective obviously. Also if the barkstar goes first and gets the buffs off, all those shootings will do very little.
Let say the masque pops up against the ETC barkstar, it has to be 12" away to use the Dance of Caging. You can pretty much say goodbye to it after one unsaved living lightning wound or Sammael's PC.
I'll use the England player as the example for the etc. His list was pretty much the same as the one in the first post, apart from his Libby conclave wasn't vanilla marine instead it was a dark angel conclave.
Game 1 vs 5 flyrants + 3 harpys, won 15-5
Game 2 vs 3 x 1 wyvern, stormsword, assassin bunker, the masque, 2 slaanesh heralds + seekers, won 20-0
Game 3 vs ethereal, stormsurge, riptide wing (3:1:1), drone formation 4x4 markers, culexus (note no bunker) won 17-3
Game 4 vs 45 warp spiders and a wraithknight, won 16-4
Game 5 vs 5 flyrants and 3 heldrakes won 18-2
Game 6 vs centstar won 18-2
So yeah in the hands of a good player that's what it's capable of. As you can see from the results from the games vs the nids that the rune priest formation is essential.
Minimanj wrote: I'll use the England player as the example for the etc. His list was pretty much the same as the one in the first post, apart from his Libby conclave wasn't vanilla marine instead it was a dark angel conclave.
So yeah in the hands of a good player that's what it's capable of. As you can see from the results from the games vs the nids that the rune priest formation is essential.
This is an ETC list with the 4 det limit, vs the 3 det limit in ITC, so yeah.
Question, was this list something that was put forward as a TAC, or as a counter?
Which will no longer work if the opponent has a plane. They'd feel really silly telling it to stop moving turn 4 when everything is basically dead already.
Which will no longer work if the opponent has a plane. They'd feel really silly telling it to stop moving turn 4 when everything is basically dead already.
Huh?
Assuming the renegade player doesn't have points for a flyer after a full renegade artillery company and a daemon detachment. This would mean the death star player could force the masque to either deploy on the board and get shot or come in from reserves on a 6(I think its a 6). So, itt is likely that the death star would just run over the artillery company then split apart so when the masque deep strikes in turn 4 (automatically) then she's fairly useless.
Which will no longer work if the opponent has a plane. They'd feel really silly telling it to stop moving turn 4 when everything is basically dead already.
Huh?
Assuming the renegade player doesn't have points for a flyer after a full renegade artillery company and a daemon detachment. This would mean the death star player could force the masque to either deploy on the board and get shot or come in from reserves on a 6(I think its a 6). So, itt is likely that the death star would just run over the artillery company then split apart so when the masque deep strikes in turn 4 (automatically) then she's fairly useless.
The masque was on the board on turn one, in his deployment zone behind a LOS blocking terrain. She was never a target.
Renegade player simply shot at every non-barkstar unit dead in turn 1.
The barkstar player (who really didn't have any shooting, or had none) had to move up the board in order to engage in CC... at that point, the masque simple moved into 12" range, and said "no, you now only move/run d3".
Which again wouldn't work on the ETC list as it has much more psychic shooting and will blow that masque away in one turn. And also renegades wouldn't work in ETC/NOVA format once the deathstar go invis, the earthshakers becomes useless.
Yeah I am really surprised that the Masque was able to do anything. 1 Living Lightening and She's dead. Reducing their move/run would only work for 1 turn since she'd have to be close enough to them that the Barkstar could just charge her and consolidate after. So they still get closer.
If you try to Deep Strike her, the Barkstar will have already moved for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 so they are where they need to be already. So she must make them dance turn 1
The only way for her to have worked is if the Barkstar play had absolutely no idea what she could do and thus ignored her for the turn. If he had known what she could do, she would have died turn 1.
Galef wrote: Yeah I am really surprised that the Masque was able to do anything. 1 Living Lightening and She's dead. Reducing their move/run would only work for 1 turn since she'd have to be close enough to them that the Barkstar could just charge her and consolidate after. So they still get closer.
If you try to Deep Strike her, the Barkstar will have already moved for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 so they are where they need to be already. So she must make them dance turn 1
The only way for her to have worked is if the Barkstar play had absolutely no idea what she could do and thus ignored her for the turn. If he had known what she could do, she would have died turn 1.
You have to remember that she's slaneesh. So she can come out from behind a wall, then run 4-9 inches away, probably behind said wall. So she's never going to get charged by the unit. I don't know what ETC says but nova specifies that her power doesn't work on turbo-boosting.
Galef wrote: Yeah I am really surprised that the Masque was able to do anything. 1 Living Lightening and She's dead. Reducing their move/run would only work for 1 turn since she'd have to be close enough to them that the Barkstar could just charge her and consolidate after. So they still get closer.
If you try to Deep Strike her, the Barkstar will have already moved for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 so they are where they need to be already. So she must make them dance turn 1
The only way for her to have worked is if the Barkstar play had absolutely no idea what she could do and thus ignored her for the turn. If he had known what she could do, she would have died turn 1.
You have to remember that she's slaneesh. So she can come out from behind a wall, then run 4-9 inches away, probably behind said wall. So she's never going to get charged by the unit. I don't know what ETC says but nova specifies that her power doesn't work on turbo-boosting.
ETC ruled it for all movement. D3" for move/run/turbo/charge/hit and run etc..
Galef wrote: Yeah I am really surprised that the Masque was able to do anything. 1 Living Lightening and She's dead. Reducing their move/run would only work for 1 turn since she'd have to be close enough to them that the Barkstar could just charge her and consolidate after. So they still get closer.
If you try to Deep Strike her, the Barkstar will have already moved for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 so they are where they need to be already. So she must make them dance turn 1
The only way for her to have worked is if the Barkstar play had absolutely no idea what she could do and thus ignored her for the turn. If he had known what she could do, she would have died turn 1.
You have to remember that she's slaneesh. So she can come out from behind a wall, then run 4-9 inches away, probably behind said wall. So she's never going to get charged by the unit. I don't know what ETC says but nova specifies that her power doesn't work on turbo-boosting.
ETC ruled it for all movement. D3" for move/run/turbo/charge/hit and run etc..
Which makes sense. What happens in the unit? Everyone is in a zombie daze including the guy on the motorcycle and he just snaps out of it for a minutes and drives off like a maniac?
Assuming the dogs are T4, would multiple S9 torrent flamers/ barrage large blasts do anything to that star in an ITC setting? So for the most part ignoring invisibility and any FNP shenanigans they get,...
...admittedly it doesn't get past Forewarning + Veil of Time + Sanctuary (I know that's from three separate tables and sanctuary is really needed , but with that may psykers there's a good chance he'll get it if he goes for it)
Torus wrote: Assuming the dogs are T4, would multiple S9 torrent flamers/ barrage large blasts do anything to that star in an ITC setting? So for the most part ignoring invisibility and any FNP shenanigans they get,...
...admittedly it doesn't get past Forewarning + Veil of Time + Sanctuary (I know that's from three separate tables and sanctuary is really needed , but with that may psykers there's a good chance he'll get it if he goes for it)
Why would you need Forewarning when Azreal gives them all a 4++ already? Rolling veil plus Sanctuary really isn't that difficult. Actually trying to hurt the star once it's powered up is pretty futile and very few armies can actually do enough damage T1 even if they go first. I said it a couple pages back, but as someone that's used a Barkstar at big events the only things that would seriously worry me are:
- Culexus + iKnights/Eldar/Tau
- The Masque + lots of LoS blocking terrain
- Absurd Barrage spam that might snipe the Libs with good powers or Azzy (like renegades with 10 wyverns and 12 thudd guns, or eldar with 3+ warp hunters, a couple thunderfires won't bother me at all)
Galef wrote: Yeah I am really surprised that the Masque was able to do anything. 1 Living Lightening and She's dead. Reducing their move/run would only work for 1 turn since she'd have to be close enough to them that the Barkstar could just charge her and consolidate after. So they still get closer.
If you try to Deep Strike her, the Barkstar will have already moved for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 so they are where they need to be already. So she must make them dance turn 1
The only way for her to have worked is if the Barkstar play had absolutely no idea what she could do and thus ignored her for the turn. If he had known what she could do, she would have died turn 1.
You have to remember that she's slaneesh. So she can come out from behind a wall, then run 4-9 inches away, probably behind said wall. So she's never going to get charged by the unit. I don't know what ETC says but nova specifies that her power doesn't work on turbo-boosting.
I believe that's exactly what happened... masque pointed her fingers, then ran behind some LOS blocking terrain.
whembly wrote: I believe that's exactly what happened... masque pointed her fingers, then ran behind some LOS blocking terrain.
Yeah against Masque you gotta get a little creative. Once I hit veil I go for Phaseform, coupled with Sammys plasma cannon (or Azzys combo-plas, or just bolters) it usually does the trick unless she's grimmed.
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