My love affair with Dune started with the David Lynch film. I must have been about 13 when I saw it and though I recognised that the film was flawed I was still intrigued. I must have seen the film 3 or 4 times over the years. Even after reading the book some years after first watching the film I still appreciated how Lynch had adapted it.
I've also played a couple of the PC games. First Dune from 1992 (an adaptation of the film). It's quite short from what I remember though it does capture the right atmosphere, even though it was built for very limited hardware specs (as you'd expect from a game from 1992). The last time I played that was about 15 years ago, so might not be able to stomach the graphics now.
I also played the RTS games, even getting Dune 2000 as soon as it was released. I didn't get very far into that game, though I don't think it's because I disliked it, I just had better games on my to play list and never got back to it.
What's recently reignited my interest is the two mini series from the Sci Fi Channel, Dune and Children of Dune. I enjoyed them, I wouldn't say they were any better or worse than Lynch's effort, though they would have benefited from bigger budgets. I'd love to see the same people tackle the rest of the books, though since Children of Dune came out in 2003 I don't see that happening.
So is there anything else that can give me a Dune fix? I've read the first two books, though the second one was so bad it discouraged me from reading any more. I'd love to explore this world more in video games. Emperor: Battle For Dune appears to be the most recent from 2001, though by all accounts is pretty terrible.
Are there any other games that are similar? The recent Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak is set on a desert world, though that appears to be where the similarity ends.
I've read all of the ones by Frank himself except for Chapterhouse: Dune. I thought they were quite good, although Heretics of Dune was not as good as the first four.
d-usa wrote: Is that early game the one where you play as him and end up terraforming the planet?
I've played the various base-builder games, but I loved that first person game.
Yes. It was kind of a cross between a first person adventure and a turn based strategy game. It's one of those hybrid games that's actually pretty good.
Based on the responses in this thread I might give the books another go, thanks all.
By the way, I've done some more digging and there's a mod for Civilization IV called Dune Wars. Looks impressive, though I'm not sure I want to get back into Civ IV, it took me a long time to kick that addiction
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I thouroughly enjoyed the books by his son and Anderson. The prequel ones and the continuation ones.
ZergSmasher wrote:I've read all of the ones by Frank himself except for Chapterhouse: Dune. I thought they were quite good, although Heretics of Dune was not as good as the first four.
Of the originals, I thought 3-4 were the weaker ones of the series.
From the prequils, I likes the House series, but not the butlarian jihad
Hunters/Sandworms of Dune did a OK job wrapping things up. I stopped reading the rest of the stuff they put out since.
Anyone else remember this? It'd make a great Phone App game these days.
I'd seen the film but this set me off to reading the full series (at the time) of six books. I got a few chapters into House Harkonnen and gave up on the extended universe there and then.
I still long for a good set of Dune minis. GW got very close with the Van Saar from Necromunda. 40k in general owes Dune a great debt.
IMO the novels are okay until Frank Herbert dies and his son + Keith Laumer take over, then it goes downhill.
His son and Kevin J. Anderson. I won't stand for you besmirching Keith Laumer's name like that. Shame on you.
I could only remember that the name of the co-author started with K.
I've played the Avalon Hill game but it was over 30 years ago and I can't remember anything about it. The BoardGameGeek reviews will give a good idea of the style of game.
IMO the novels are okay until Frank Herbert dies and his son + Keith Laumer take over, then it goes downhill.
His son and Kevin J. Anderson. I won't stand for you besmirching Keith Laumer's name like that. Shame on you.
I could only remember that the name of the co-author started with K.
I've played the Avalon Hill game but it was over 30 years ago and I can't remember anything about it. The BoardGameGeek reviews will give a good idea of the style of game.
We're cool, then. Actually, Kevin J. Anderson is a pretty nice guy, or at least he was back when I did the convention thing.
The main issue I have with the Lynch film is that what many people remember about it are a lot of really un-Dune-like things. Take milking cats as just one example, although we could also talk "weirding modules," draining pus, Paul making it rain, or plenty of other items. It's mostly...interesting, but these things are very distracting elements of the film, even as most of the important themes from the book are completely missing.
I'm a Lynch fan and used to have the movie poster on my wall. But just keeping it real, it's not a very good film or adaptation of the book. I know he shot a lot of stuff that never made the final cut. Some of that was added in the "Alan Smithee" extended cut, and it helps, but it's still very, very flawed. Ultimately, I'm not sure Lynch was the right guy for the job, or that the job as it was (single 2-hour movie) should have been attempted.
I thought the SciFi (now SyFy) Channel version -- although limited in budget -- was a more faithful adaptation of the book that included a little more of its core themes.
The various games are nearly all fine offerings... just don't read beyond the first book, and maybe, MAYBE the second. Especially don't read the hack prequels his son and KJA were involved in, they're atrocious.
Killionaire wrote: The various games are nearly all fine offerings... just don't read beyond the first book, and maybe, MAYBE the second. Especially don't read the hack prequels his son and KJA were involved in, they're atrocious.
If you skip anything after the first, you more-or-less miss the entire point to the story. Which is completely your prerogative, but Dune was never meant to be a straight-up hero/savior story. Books 4 through 6 get trippier, and introduce many more characters that readers may not feel as attached to as those in the initial trilogy. They're not to everyone's taste. *shrug*
I've seen/heard/read so many people rail on the Kevin Herbert/Anderson books, but I don't think it's completely warranted. They don't rise to the level of Frank's work, but they aren't bad brain candy sci-fi novels set in that universe. Besides, their conclusion to the saga (finally resolving the cliffhanger in Chapterhouse) is right out of Frank's notes. Had Frank survived, it would have been completed in his style, but I believe the overall plot was what it was.
Killionaire wrote: The various games are nearly all fine offerings... just don't read beyond the first book, and maybe, MAYBE the second. Especially don't read the hack prequels his son and KJA were involved in, they're atrocious.
If you skip anything after the first, you more-or-less miss the entire point to the story. Which is completely your prerogative, but Dune was never meant to be a straight-up hero/savior story. Books 4 through 6 get trippier, and introduce many more characters that readers may not feel as attached to as those in the initial trilogy. They're not to everyone's taste. *shrug*
I've seen/heard/read so many people rail on the Kevin Herbert/Anderson books, but I don't think it's completely warranted. They don't rise to the level of Frank's work, but they aren't bad brain candy sci-fi novels set in that universe. Besides, their conclusion to the saga (finally resolving the cliffhanger in Chapterhouse) is right out of Frank's notes. Had Frank survived, it would have been completed in his style, but I believe the overall plot was what it was.
I remember the first DUNE book, no problem.
I have vague memories of possibly reading the next two, and finding them...odd.
But this was a long time ago!
I think I'm due to re-read it all!
Should I start with the prequels, or just read the originals first, and then go back and read the new stuff?
I would say that the first three (Dune, DM, Children) are a true trilogy and one story. Start there, without question, then decide how much stamina you have left, lol. And yes, I would also say that concepts in the series get weirder the farther you go.
Book 4 (God Emperor) involves a big time jump and is kind of its own story, and then there's more time jump before books 5 (Heretics) and 6 (Chapterhouse), which together are their own story. Which was then finally completed recently in Hunters of Dune (effectively book 7) and Sandworms of Dune (8) by B. Herbert and Anderson.
The catch to reading them in that order is that the prequels involving the Butlerian Jihad (TBJ, Machine Crusade, Battle of Corrin) help set up some things in Hunters and Sandworms. So you might want to read those before books 7 and 8, if you ever get that far.
For the rest of the B. Herbert/Anderson books, I would say that the "house" prequels (Atreides, Harkonnen, Corrino), the "schools" prequels (Sisterhood, Mentats, and soon Navigators), and in-between novels (Paul, Winds) aren't required reading. I think I remember liking the house books more than the rest, but it's admittedly hard keeping all those books straight.
There must be some legal tangle preventing Herbert the Younger from licensing the property out to game designers.
Back when FFG wanted to reprint an updated version of Avalon Hill's top notch game, they could not get the rights; hence "Rex - Final Days of an Empire" using the Twilight Imperium setting.
I think the SciFi channels "Frank Herbert's Dune" is vastly improved if you think of the film not as a, well, a film but instead as a recorded theatrical play with technology components. - A bit like, say, Jeff Wayne's War of The Worlds.
In that mindset, I found it really works. - Baron Harkonnen (played by Ian McNeice in one of my favourite villain roles of all time), isn't just ranting to the camera in an empty room, he is actually performing a Soliloquy.
I read the Dune novels while I was still a teenager, I've got to say that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune went completely over my head until I saw the miniseries (starring a young James McAvoy as a very power psychic a good decade before playing another one...)
I reread God Emperor after that, which was improved. However Heretics and Chapterhouse are still a bunch of gibberish to me.
I thoroughly enjoyed Emperor: Battle for Dune the game, I wouldn't say it was terrible at all, though it does have the various cheesy elements that are found in Red Alert and Command And Conquer cinematics. - It's not gone the full hog crazy as RA2 and RA3 has though.
I read Frank's books and some of his son's. The younger Herbert is a competent author, but will always pale when compared to Frank's overarching narrative, that was unfortunately never concluded (unless you count his son using his notes for Sandworms of Dune). There was supposed to be another film, but it got caught in development hell. With big guns/robots being what studios are willing to produce we may never see another Dune, unfortunately.
Compel wrote: In that mindset, I found it really works. - Baron Harkonnen (played by Ian McNeice in one of my favourite villain roles of all time), isn't just ranting to the camera in an empty room, he is actually performing a Soliloquy.
That was far closer to the Baron of the novels than what we got in the Lynch film.
Compel wrote: I think the SciFi channels "Frank Herbert's Dune" is vastly improved if you think of the film not as a, well, a film but instead as a recorded theatrical play with technology components. - A bit like, say, Jeff Wayne's War of The Worlds.
In that mindset, I found it really works. - Baron Harkonnen (played by Ian McNeice in one of my favourite villain roles of all time), isn't just ranting to the camera in an empty room, he is actually performing a Soliloquy.
I read the Dune novels while I was still a teenager, I've got to say that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune went completely over my head until I saw the miniseries (starring a young James McAvoy as a very power psychic a good decade before playing another one...)
I reread God Emperor after that, which was improved. However Heretics and Chapterhouse are still a bunch of gibberish to me.
I thoroughly enjoyed Emperor: Battle for Dune the game, I wouldn't say it was terrible at all, though it does have the various cheesy elements that are found in Red Alert and Command And Conquer cinematics. - It's not gone the full hog crazy as RA2 and RA3 has though.
Well it really is exactly that, a "TV play" I mean, you can see it even in the way the sets are constructed and how they're shot, and the finale is very much the closing scene of a play complete with the lights going down.
It's one of my favourite Sci-Fi channel productions, even above the BSG miniseries, and the style is certainly one of the main reasons why. I picked up all 8 of the "core" story novels a while ago for cheap, but every time I start to muster up the energy to get stuck into them I think "nah, I'll just rewatch the miniseries".
I used to think the Lynch film was a masterpiece, but on viewing it again recently I expect that was mostly because I was a teenager and stoned out of my gourd at the time, so it seemed super-profound and avant-garde, when really it's just mostly odd for the sake of odd and a bit of a slog to get through.
George Spiggott wrote: I still long for a good set of Dune minis. GW got very close with the Van Saar from Necromunda. 40k in general owes Dune a great debt.
Have you seen these?
My hope against hope is that somebody will eventually do Dune in a similar fashion to Game of Thrones as it'd be an epic setting for a series with lots of death and politics.
I think it's a crying shame that people still take their cues regarding stillsuits from the Lynch movie. I know the reason why they made that decision for the film, but stillsuits without masks and head coverings make no sense.
The stillsuits are described as having hoods and mouth filters in multiple places in the books. It wouldn't make any sense for stillsuits to deliver the kind of moisture reclamation as described if heads and mouths were left uncovered. Faces and scalps sweat a lot.
Manchu wrote: Works for a novel, would be lame for the visual medium (maybe even comics).
Except that's exactly how they were depicted in the Sci-fi Channel adaptation and that's still the best "visual" interpretation of the story, for my money.
Well we are diametrically opposed there. I love the Lynch production: the casting, the sets, the costumes ... all of it is, to my taste, the very summit of design for Dune (so far) but I know that another creative team could start from that and do even better, like with Gorrem's gallery on DeviantArt or some of the earlier stuff from the CCG. To my eyes, Scifi's Dune looks like BBC-level cheap crap.
Manchu wrote: Well we are diametrically opposed there. I love the Lynch production: the casting, the sets, the costumes ... all of it is, to my taste, the very summit of design for Dune (so far) but I know that another creative team could start from that and do even better, like with Gorrem's gallery on DeviantArt or some of the earlier stuff from the CCG. To my eyes, Scifi's Dune looks like BBC-level cheap crap.
As you like. Personally I'll take a faithful adaptation with a lower budget over a lavish vanity project any day.
I don't know about visuals, but I think the miniseries was certainly a better thematic presentation of the books. Lynch's movie had lots of style, but loses too many important themes over doo-dads and details. The weirding modules are one example. Neat ray guns, but the Fremen won not because of their tech, but their fervor, ferocity and skills.
Edit: And heart plugs? Good god. I'd like to say that the ending undermines almost every important theme from the books, but then most of those themes aren't in Lynch's film anyway, so whatever.
Regarding mouth filters and hoods, the miniseries simply had them open their masks when the actors needed to act. Which is still terrible water discipline, but it worked decently enough. You could have some of both worlds by just writing it so that big monologues or dialogues aren't made in the open desert.
Regarding that artwork, the best thing in there is the one showing loose robes over the stillsuit...which is how Fremen wore them in open desert. In a visual medium, one could also use color on the robes to distinguish between characters even if the faces are hidden.
Ah don't get me wrong - I think Lynch's movie is confusing and messy in terms of plot and theme. It's the production I revere.
Here's a thought - film all desert sequences as long shots so that the identity of any given human spec on in the frame is immaterial. Thematically, this would suggest the self-effacing discipline of the Fremen culture. Cinematographically, this would emphasize the awful enormity of the harsh ecosystem.
There's a great point there -- the planet itself and its ecology is a central part of the story and practically a character unto itself. Yet the two adaptations we've seen don't show off Arrakis they way they should have.
There's only the one quick shot of rolling dunes to the horizon in the Lynch film. The rest of the desert scenes are shot fairly tightly (although I think the sequence with Paul walking out with the maker hooks with Fremen on the dunes behind him has some really nice photography).
Spoiler:
And the miniseries was done on a shoestring budget that made heavy use of matte paintings and now (maybe even then) sub-par CGI. Although I think it at least did a better job establishing the terrain around Arrakeen, including the shield wall. It gets a hole blown in it in the Lynch film, but it's not clearly established why that's important.
Arrakis could really shine with a real budget and today's technology.
OH! One thing. As for Jarowalsky's Dune and it's TRIPPY version of the story... he did finish it in a form! He made a comic book that's based on a very Dune-like universe premise, but ultra-trippy.
I always thought Herbert should have taken a leaf from Tolkien - written his masterpiece then shut up.
The Dune sequels had interesting properties but detracted from the genius of the original story.
Compel wrote: Um there's like two dozen other like of the rings books other than Hobbit / Lotr
Most of which were collected notes, published by his son. Not polished books. Interesting as a glimpse into the mind/world, but not as coherently put together.
The best two of the post-mortem Tolkien books are The Silmarilion and Unfinished Tales. The Silmarillion is the better of those. It's a readable finished book though a collection of stories rather than a complete narrative novel.
Starting from Unfinished Tales (there's a clue in the title) things got more and more sketchy as Tolkien's son had to interpret and embroider the increasingly scanty notes that JRR himself had left behind.
IDK if Tolkien ever intended to publish any of this material. He wrote a huge amount of stuff mainly for his own interest.
Orlanth wrote: I always thought Herbert should have taken a leaf from Tolkien - written his masterpiece then shut up.
The Dune sequels had interesting properties but detracted from the genius of the original story.
Not quite like unlike how Ender's Game became increasingly bizarre. I guess it's all about the money. :-/ Well, not entirely. I could see an author using an established and beloved IP to further an idea since it has an increased likelihood of being read as opposed to creating an entirely new IP that may just be ignored.
I really love the original Dune novel. It's a thing of beauty yet to be surpassed by anything I've read in Scifi. I think an accurate cinematic portrayal is all but impossible though. It waxes overly philosophical to get the necessary funding for the sheer scope of the book.
Has it attracted similar criticism as Star Wars in that it is more of a space opera/fantasy that seemingly venerates Messianic figures and a ruling elite?
IDK if Tolkien ever intended to publish any of this material. He wrote a huge amount of stuff mainly for his own interest.
Silmarillion was intended for publication as a supporting history. For a long time it was the only additional work to support the two novels.
I think Herbert would have best served by writing supporting histories to Dune.
Orlanth wrote: I always thought Herbert should have taken a leaf from Tolkien - written his masterpiece then shut up.
The Dune sequels had interesting properties but detracted from the genius of the original story.
Not quite like unlike how Ender's Game became increasingly bizarre. I guess it's all about the money. :-/ Well, not entirely. I could see an author using an established and beloved IP to further an idea since it has an increased likelihood of being read as opposed to creating an entirely new IP that may just be ignored.
I really love the original Dune novel. It's a thing of beauty yet to be surpassed by anything I've read in Scifi. I think an accurate cinematic portrayal is all but impossible though. It waxes overly philosophical to get the necessary funding for the sheer scope of the book.
Has it attracted similar criticism as Star Wars in that it is more of a space opera/fantasy that seemingly venerates Messianic figures and a ruling elite?
If you only read the first book, then you're liable to see it as a typical messianic rise of the hero type plot. The point of the first trilogy is that Paul can't control the forces he unleashed and exploited. He's very fallible and in fact ultimately fails spectacularly. Mostly because he is a good person, but it's a failure nonetheless and his son is left to do what Paul should have done.
Some concepts get stranger in DM and CoD, but there are quite a few people who get turned off just because they're about the fall and failure of the hero-messiah. But that is the point of the first trilogy.
TL;DR. Dune is basically a tin can Herbert sets up to knock over in DM and CoD. Ignore those two books and all you get is the tin can, and none of the lessons that Herbert tries to teach.
I loved the original book and have read it multiple times. I read the rest of the originals up through God Emperor of Dune. I thought it went downhill quickly. Dune was epic and heroic, a great fast moving story. The rest slowed down to a crawl and turned into philosophical trash. Then when his son took over I greatly enjoyed those books as they got back to stories and the rise and fall of characters who actually went and did stuff. Really liked the original backstory trilogy with the machines.
My first experience of Dune was the Lynch film, so I was absolutely bamboozled by what I was watching.
I then discovered the books later, and they have grown into some of my favourite ever. From Dune to God-Emperor of Dune, they are astounding. They also made me look on the Lynch film a bit softer. It's not Dune as it should be in my mind, but it's still enjoyable I enjoyed the Sci-Fi one as well.
I loved the Original Dune book, the 2 follow-ups are good too. The themes are just so relevant to all of Human history and still relevant today.
Humanity vs the Environment and the Barbarian vs Civilisation.
God-Emperor was hard work, but is important in its own way, I really like finding out what the Golden path is, it makes alot of sense really. I am currently reading book 5 and I am still enjoying it.
Kilkrazy wrote: There's a book called Dune that explains all the emojis at some length, mostly in English.
Thank you, captain of the bleeding obvious.
Perhaps you lacked the vision to see the oz flag - and thus failed to see the unspoken sarcasm inherent in my post?
(We aussies tend to speak sarcasm as a second language, fluently. It's not something that needs to be said. Like water being wet. )
I have read the books. Heretics came out when I was in high school (when Frank lived in Perth, Western Oz) and so did Chapter House. I read them in High School but that was several decades ago now.
I tend not to be a big fan of book series, so I only read the original and loved it but have little to no interest in the rest. Now if an author writes other things unrelated that is different obliviously.
There are exceptions, but it is generally true. I think the longest series I read were the Robotech books way back in the day. Outside of that trilogy would be about as far as I generally want to go.
Manchu wrote: Works for a novel, would be lame for the visual medium (maybe even comics).
Not necessarily, you could have identifiable masks, even ones that artistically mimic the face. It makes sense also as it transfers the persona to the suit, which is important as Fremen wear them the majority of the time.
Paramount was developing a new version of Dune a few years ago. It quietly just went away. This is something that happens about once a decade.
I love the first book, think the second book did a good job of dismantling the hero's journey of the first, but think that was let down by a third book that wandered off in to a story that just doesn't appeal to me. I got through the fourth book, but basically I didn't really want to read a logic puzzle about how a world with premonition would work, and I'm kind of surprised so many other people did. I understand things get stranger from there.
Yodhrin wrote: As you like. Personally I'll take a faithful adaptation with a lower budget over a lavish vanity project any day.
It isn't about budget, but about art. The tv series was certainly faithful, but there are basic things that work on the page that don't work on the screen. While the production of the miniseries was bad, it was really the script that let it down.
I mean, sure, the original movie is bad in many ways. To someone who doesn't know Dune it's almost completely incomprehensible, it somehow changes enough and too little so that all at once it fails to make sense as work in its own right, and perhaps makes even less sense to someone with a knowledge of the books. But in the production, the visuals and the music there are wonderful elements. It is certainly a failed effort, but it still manages to add to Dune. You can play the soundtrack and read the books and it works.
However, if you want a really faithful version of the books that moves along at the speed of a book... just re-read the books
Love the David Lynch Version, and i recently watched Jodorowsky's Dune and he would have gone further of the rails, beautiful designs by Gieger and Paul Giraud though.
I think Kapittel Dune is the last one i read.
I also wonder if they ever make a movie out off Dan Simmons Hyperion
That's one of my favorite book series of all time, and as much as I'd love to see it (and isn't Bradley Cooper doing book one on Syfy?), I really don't think anyone will be able to do it right/justice...
sebster wrote: Paramount was developing a new version of Dune a few years ago. It quietly just went away. This is something that happens about once a decade.
I love the first book, think the second book did a good job of dismantling the hero's journey of the first, but think that was let down by a third book that wandered off in to a story that just doesn't appeal to me. I got through the fourth book, but basically I didn't really want to read a logic puzzle about how a world with premonition would work, and I'm kind of surprised so many other people did. I understand things get stranger from there.
Yodhrin wrote: As you like. Personally I'll take a faithful adaptation with a lower budget over a lavish vanity project any day.
It isn't about budget, but about art. The tv series was certainly faithful, but there are basic things that work on the page that don't work on the screen. While the production of the miniseries was bad, it was really the script that let it down.
I mean, sure, the original movie is bad in many ways. To someone who doesn't know Dune it's almost completely incomprehensible, it somehow changes enough and too little so that all at once it fails to make sense as work in its own right, and perhaps makes even less sense to someone with a knowledge of the books. But in the production, the visuals and the music there are wonderful elements. It is certainly a failed effort, but it still manages to add to Dune. You can play the soundtrack and read the books and it works.
However, if you want a really faithful version of the books that moves along at the speed of a book... just re-read the books
Ah yes, "art", the word that means whatever people want it to mean.
I don't agree, obviously. The Sci-fi show was essentially the books rewritten as a play, and it's perfectly well executed. You can dislike that style, but I don't see how filming it and adding flavour with CGI scenes suddenly makes the script worse than it would have been if performed on a stage in front of an audience. Personally I think it's better for it - I quite like the style and structure of plays, but actually going to see them is nightmarish, everything I hate about the cinema with a worse view.
As for the film, if you like it you like it, no judgement, but I don't see how an adaptation can meaningfully "add to" the original when it so little resembles it. To my eye it was a Dune version of "Spaceballs", with the humour exchanged for avant garde pretention.
EDIT: To clarify where I'm coming from, for my money, the point of an adaptation is to allow people to experience a story they otherwise wouldn't have, or to re-experience a story they enjoyed, in a medium they prefer. The "art" in an adaptation is in finding ways to translate the work into that different "language" without losing any of the meaning, themes and so on of the original work - it doesn't have to be a rote retelling if that wouldn't work in the new medium, but the whole point of adapting a work from one medium to another is that it remain as recognisable as possible for what it was.
Lynch's Dune is the very opposite of that ethos, it makes arbitrary and needless changes to the source material, it changes core themes and motivations, and for my money that shows either a casual disregard for the source material or genuinely rampant ego. Charitably, I'd call it an homage with branding issues.
Well, you did know that Dakka is not a safe space. You only have yourself to blame. Yeah, I know, saying that is a microagression. My privilege made me do it
Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion are interesting. I have yet to read the other two. I have no idea if it could be a good movie.
Stillsuits would cook their wearers in short order. Nobody could survive on a desert world anyway. Nothing to fix oxygen. So, no air to breathe. Nonetheless...
Dune is a Masterpiece. It suffers from some serious refrigerator logic, mind you, but still, what a great read. I never bothered with the rest of the books. Dune is complete unto itself, IMHO.
Frank Herbert liked Lynch's movie. Make of that what you will. IIRC, Lynch did not want "Kung Fu in the desert" so he changed weirding way into the weirding module.
Yodhrin wrote: Ah yes, "art", the word that means whatever people want it to mean.
Much like porn, there is plenty of subjectivity but there is also a reality where we know it when we see it
As for the film, if you like it you like it, no judgement, but I don't see how an adaptation can meaningfully "add to" the original when it so little resembles it. To my eye it was a Dune version of "Spaceballs", with the humour exchanged for avant garde pretention.
Yeah, as I said above the Dune film is a failure in many ways. The script is more like an edited highlights reel of the first book, plus some random changes, it certaintly isn't a coherent narrative in its own sense. And there are certainly avant garde elements to it, though it is interesting to note how little feels experimental today - Lynch's new techniques became standard.
But there are still excellent elements in there. There is imagery and cinematography that is just wonderful. And there's that preposterous, glorious Toto soundtrack.
In comparison, the miniseries succeeds in being faithful, but that is all it succeeds in. I don't think anybody ever reading the book will stop and think 'this is great but I really wish I could have WIlliam Hurt reading it to me on a tiny soundstage with a CGI background'
The "art" in an adaptation is in finding ways to translate the work into that different "language" without losing any of the meaning, themes and so on of the original work - it doesn't have to be a rote retelling if that wouldn't work in the new medium, but the whole point of adapting a work from one medium to another is that it remain as recognisable as possible for what it was.
I completely disagree with that view, that's probably why we disagree on Lynch's move I think the purpose of any creation, whether it is based on another property, is to create something that has quality in and of itself. It isn't good because it is faithful to an earlier work, and it isn't bad because it doesn't.
Lynch's film failed because it doesn't stand alone as a good movie. It has good elements, but that isn't enough. It doesn't fail
Well, you did know that Dakka is not a safe space. You only have yourself to blame. Yeah, I know, saying that is a microagression. My privilege made me do it
Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion are interesting. I have yet to read the other two. I have no idea if it could be a good movie.
Stillsuits would cook their wearers in short order. Nobody could survive on a desert world anyway. Nothing to fix oxygen. So, no air to breathe. Nonetheless...
Dune is a Masterpiece. It suffers from some serious refrigerator logic, mind you, but still, what a great read. I never bothered with the rest of the books. Dune is complete unto itself, IMHO.
Frank Herbert liked Lynch's movie. Make of that what you will. IIRC, Lynch did not want "Kung Fu in the desert" so he changed weirding way into the weirding module.
Why would the stillsuits cook their users, especially if so much fluid would pass them, theoretically it would be possible, But dune plays far in the future, they use materials we don't yet have the technology for to make.
Also as far as i remember, it is the worm or the little makers that produce the air on Arrakis.
McNeice's Baron -- while still a scenery-chewer -- is a FAR better portrayal of Vladimir than Kenneth McMillan's. It's a recurring theme in the Lynch film that the essence of things gets lost behind distracting details. In this case, you lose most sense of what a brilliant House leader the Baron is in the movie, thanks to things like boils and the zany freakshow going on around him. Well, that and the apparent lack of smarts. TV Baron comes across as a competent individual.
Regarding Herbert and his stated feelings about the movie, it's important to note that Frank was much more of a gracious gentleman than, say, Alan Moore regarding adaptation of his work. It's likely that he permitted any personal negativity about the film to pass over him and through him. IIRC, he thanked Lynch for showing him how to write a screenplay, and he probably did quite well financially with the film's release. I don't think we should take any of this to mean that he thought Lynch's film was an ideal adaptation of his book.
Regarding "kung fu in the desert"...that kind of action (or any big-scale action, really) isn't Lynch's thing. I'm sure rayguns just made it easier for him to shoot. But what was truly lost in the film wasn't the martial arts, but the sense of ferocity from the Fremen, this incredible powderkeg that Paul and Jessica exploit and set off.
The other reason behind inventing the guns for Lynch's movie was to make it easier for the audience to understand why the Emperor turned against the Atreides (he even says as much at the beginning of the movie) rather than go with confusing political exposition. It's also an easy way to explain how the Fremen win against a superior force. Basically, the guns were just the easy way out, at least that's how I always thought of it.
gorgon wrote: Regarding Herbert and his stated feelings about the movie, it's important to note that Frank was much more of a gracious gentleman than, say, Alan Moore regarding adaptation of his work. It's likely that he permitted any personal negativity about the film to pass over him and through him. IIRC, he thanked Lynch for showing him how to write a screenplay, and he probably did quite well financially with the film's release. I don't think we should take any of this to mean that he thought Lynch's film was an ideal adaptation of his book.
I don't think there's really any merit in all in finding out whether an author likes the film version or not. As you say their comment is often financially motivated as much as anything - writers who sell their works directly and ensure a healthy cut of the gross rarely come out and say the movie sucks, unsurprisingly. Meanwhile. negative comments about a film are as often as not more a product of the author being shut out of production, generally because the publisher retained control of film rights.
In this case the director and principal cast are quite honest about how bad the movie was, so why go looking for opinions beyond that? I remember one quote from Sean Young in the home movie she shot while the film was in production, she says that Lynch was very difficult to work with, but she understands why - he had never made a bad movie before, and now he was stuck in the middle of a very bad movie.
Finished Dune Messiah a few weeks ago. I enjoyed it and want to see what's going to happen next. Often when I read something I think about how it could be filmed but I think Dune is unfilmable. About half the words on the page are just things going on in people's heads. The novel is the perfect format for Dune and that's why it hasn't really broken though in in other medium.
Sorry for a bit of threadromancy but I figured this thread has already picked up all of Dakka's Dune fans in one convenient place anyway. I had some questions about the best reading order of the series. I've finished Children of Dune but I'm interested in some of the prequels like Legends
of Dune. The Butlerian Jihad seems like something I'd want to read about. So I guess my question is is it best to just press on with Frank Herbert's original work and read God Emperor of Dune next? I know the non-Frank Dunes are divisive.
I'm also interested in the Jihad after the original Dune which is apparently covered in "Paul of Dune". Has anyone read that and simialarily is that worth checking out before carrying on with God Emperor?
Finally, I know Dune "7 & 8" are not by Frank Herbert but his son and Anderson and they wrote Prelude to
Dune trilogy first. Should I read those before Hunters of Dune?
Personally I'd move onto the next trilogy -- God Emperor/Heretics/Chapterhouse -- and follow Frank's vision (new vision? extended vision?) rather than interrupt it. Be prepared that the second trilogy is...different. After that is where it gets complicated IMO.
You're going to *want* to read Hunters after Chapterhouse, I can guarantee you that right now. However, the tricky part with Hunters and Sandworms is that your understanding of those books will be helped by reading the 'prelude' and 'legends' series. That's the best way I can describe it that avoids spoilers. This obviously wasn't an issue for those of us who read them as they were released, but it's a 'thing' now.
And it's weird, since Hunters and Sandworms were supposedly based on Frank's notes. Perhaps Frank had a different plan to get from point A to point B, and Brian and Kevin Anderson changed some things. I've never tried to track down an explanation for that and don't know if one even exists. *shrug*
So if you're really feeling up to it, I'd say tackle the 'prelude' and 'legends' stuff after Chapterhouse. They aren't brain food like Frank's books were, but they're decent brain candy. If you're not up for it, just skip to Hunters after Chapterhouse and be prepared for some things that won't seem familiar.
I'd save the "heroes" and "schools" series for the very end if you're still interested. They're the least compelling of Brian and KA's stuff IMO.
Ok, thanks Gorgon. Sounds like you're basically recommending publication order. I know that God Emperor is set thousands of years later than what I've read so that's why I figured it might be a good time to try some of the other stuff before the time jump but I've also heard they may contain some spoilers so maybe publication order is better than chronological.
Has anyone thought that maybe Dune is set before the Warhammer 40k franchise and that the "men of iron" were Erasmus and Omnius? In reality though, the comparisons between the foldspace and warp are pretty damn close, just no chaos gods. But either way, if you want a dune fix buy all the new books and just read through those. Don't read sisterfood, mentats, or navigators though, so damn confusing. Not even because of plot, just that Norma Cenva pokes so many plotholes, and the entire storyline is poorly thought out.
lliu wrote: Has anyone thought that maybe Dune is set before the Warhammer 40k franchise and that the "men of iron" were Erasmus and Omnius? In reality though, the comparisons between the foldspace and warp are pretty damn close, just no chaos gods. But either way, if you want a dune fix buy all the new books and just read through those. Don't read sisterfood, mentats, or navigators though, so damn confusing. Not even because of plot, just that Norma Cenva pokes so many plotholes, and the entire storyline is poorly thought out.
It's more that it is just that 40K rips off a lot from Dune. I was shocked when first read it. It even has lasguns even though they're quite different. The Navigators are totally lifted from Dune too. The way 40K treats technology is also totally from Dune. The Men of Iron and all that.
I picked up a Mega CD emulator for my tablet the other day I now have the original Dune adventure game running on it. The FMV intro is a bit choppy but the game plays well.
I played the Amiga version first time round so was surprised to find that all the character interaction is actual speech on the Mega CD version.
George Spiggott wrote: I picked up a Mega CD emulator for my tablet the other day I now have the original Dune adventure game running on it. The FMV intro is a bit choppy but the game plays well.
I played the Amiga version first time round so was surprised to find that all the character interaction is actual speech on the Mega CD version.
There a Dune RTS called Dune 2000. Never played it but wouldn't mind trying it out.
I actually really liked the trilogy set in the war against the machines. Between Erasmus and the Titans, all three books had some really horrifying bad guys.
I first came in contact with it a few years ago, when I started listening to Iron Maiden (my favourite band).
One of their songs is called "To tame a land" (Frank Herbert didn't like the idea of a metal band writing a song about his work, which is understandable, so they didn't name the song Dune) and it is about Dune and the Muad' dib leading the Fremen. Let me tell you that I love this song and I ended up getting the first book, because I wanted to see what it is about, plus I always had a love for Sci-fi.
So, I found Dune to be my favourite book and I also read Dune Messiah. I will continue with Children of Dune next (heard that it is one of the best in the series and I can't wait).
And iirc, there were some Amiga RTS Dune games, that I will give a try in the future.
I first came in contact with it a few years ago, when I started listening to Iron Maiden (my favourite band).
One of their songs is called "To tame a land" (Frank Herbert didn't like the idea of a metal band writing a song about his work, which is understandable, so they didn't name the song Dune) and it is about Dune and the Muad' dib leading the Fremen. Let me tell you that I love this song and I ended up getting the first book, because I wanted to see what it is about, plus I always had a love for Sci-fi.
So, I found Dune to be my favourite book and I also read Dune Messiah. I will continue with Children of Dune next (heard that it is one of the best in the series and I can't wait).
And iirc, there were some Amiga RTS Dune games, that I will give a try in the future.
Well I have to listen to that song now! I'm at Children now. I would say it's my least favorite of the first three but I've noticed people's opinions on which Dune books are good vary greatly so maybe you'll like it more than me.
Well, they're not 'remaking' Lynch's movie, but making a new film based on the same book. I'm a huge David Lynch fan, but that film was easily the worst thing he's ever done.
Villeneuve is VERY passionate about the books. He told producers that it was his dream project, but figured they'd never be able to get him the rights. But they did. IIRC, he said in an interview that Dune was ultimately "a story about dreams." SOLD. At least to this huge Dune fan.
Personally, I've always kind of thought of the original Dune novel as a tragic romance.
It begins with the choices of Jessica and Leto and their raminifications. Then, at the end, it comes down to Paul, Irulan and Chani. With the final lines from Jessica.
"Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she'll live as less than a concubine—never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine—history will call us wives."
Personally, I would say that the story *has* a romance, but isn't about a romance. If that makes sense. The line you quote has always been an interesting one on which to end the first book, but not a good summary of the themes of the book IMO.
I think 'dreams' is an excellent word choice that both encompasses the motivations of many important characters and factions, and references Paul's prescience in a more literal sense.
Has anyone mentioned that a Dune film is apparently in the works? Being directed by the same guy who did Arrival and Blade Runner 2049?
Side note: Dune inspired the musician Grimes who takes her stage name from Geidi Primes. Her first album is named for the planet. My favorite song from the album is Feyd Rautha Dark Heart.
Jehan-reznor wrote:I saw on facebook a post that they are going to do a remake of the Dune movie?
trexmeyer wrote:Has anyone mentioned that a Dune film is apparently in the works? Being directed by the same guy who did Arrival and Blade Runner 2049?
After seeing Blade Runner 2049, I have no reservation whatsoever about Denis Villeneuve making a Dune movie. If anything, I think it stands a very good chance of being The One.
The problem is, BR2049 is not making money. If word of mouth can turn that around, Dune will be safe. Otherwise we might just end up with a ...
... well, put it like this. Lynch's film may not be a "good movie" but at least it is not forgettable. I could easily see a new Dune film, especially without Villeneuve at the helm, being totally forgettable.
I think you have to have vision and courage to get a believable look for the setting - and that's why you need a great director rather than only a professional one. But even that great director needs the trust and support of the producer, which Lynch ultimately lacked.
So you might want to read those before books 7 and 8, if you ever get that far.
TV Baron comes across as a competent individual.
