Alright fellow Watch Masters time to step up,

Find inside the quintessential guide and discussion for all of your Deathwatch tactics. All are welcomed and encouraged to ask questions and offer their sage advice for others to answer and learn from, together we can become a force to be reckoned with.

This foremost post will be kept up to date occasionally with a record of the strong and weak points of our great army, as well as it's various tips and tricks and its uses as allies. So read on and contribute as you feel appropriate, I just ask that no infighting occurs between watch brothers (and sisters), keep your discussions civil lest you displease your god emperor.

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So to kick us off, killteams or normal squads? What's your choice and why, I think the killteams have an incredible amount of flexibility based on the magnitude of USR they get from the various unit types. That, combined with the specific kill teams rules and the mission tactics I think will make each kill team a small powerhouse that doesn't have to waste strength firing at or attacking suboptimal targets thanks to split fire/heroic intervention.

Do you see them more as an allied detachement or as your core force?

What items are you the most keen for?

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*UPDATE 29/08/2016* (Australian sorry, I know there aren't 29 months for you yanks)

Army Wide Strengths:
Deathwatch Frag Cannon
Special Issue Ammunition
High Damage Capability
Lots of rerolls
The ability to be built to deal with specific threats
Deathwatch Frag Cannon
Huge customisability in loadout, to further deal with specific threats
Ability to field an immense # of psykers
A very easy to form Decurion
A new flyer in the Corvus Blackstar
Deathwatch Frag Cannon....and another few exciting wargear options

Army Wide Weaknesses:
Very low model count
You're still space marines, so you die....a lot
Lack of much armour beyond landraiders and dreadnaughts
Some rather confusing gear options that can cause questions
No bolt pistol on basic troops, so CCW/powerswords are sub-optimal
Annoying modelling options given that powerswords are sub-optimal

Specific Tricks and Tactics:

Angelis Drop: Take the Angelis beacon relic, allowing you to pick a DW unit that is already on the board and deepstrike it to your location. So build your favourite alpha strike unit or your mellee powerhouse, sprinkle it with a transport of your choice for added survivability and firepower (land raider redeemer for example), put your unit inside. Then drop pod a few units in first turn, one holding the beacon then bring a landraider + deathstar + 1 to 2 units into the enemy deployment zone turn 1.

*Note the beacon drop does work with a corvus, which seems amazing with its payload of missles, twin linked assault cannons, hurricane bolters, bomb type thing and rerollable jinks. However note you will need the Corvus to start on the table, meaning you need a skyshield landing pad.

A Note on Droppods:With the FAQ drafts from GW and their rulings on droppods you CAN shoot through them if you can see through them also the doors, when down, count towards the model itself. You may disembark the full 6" from the tip of a fully open Drop pod door. It also counts as part of the model for the purposes of enemy models trying to move around it, they cannot move on the ramps and must move around.

Deathwatch are probably best used as a shooting alpha strike army, so use these rules (if you are using the drafts) to your advantage, drop down and use the pod and some terrain to block access to your shooty death unit. Armour 12 all round will cause problems for those damn ork or nid or daemon swarms and will buy you at least 1 turn from larger creatures.

Breachers: Veterens are your troops. They come with a Boltgun and a CCW, so theres no point keeping the CCW as you don't get +1 attacks for 2 weapons. What you can do, if you wish to increase your survivability and want awesome models, is swap that useless CCW with a storm shield for +10 points per model. Special issues ammunition bolters with storm shield. 10 of them. Beautiful.

MSU Vanguard Vets: If you want to be annoying, a strategy that has been proposed is 1 or 2 Vanguard Vets, armed with dual flamer pistols or infernus pistols. Just jump them around the board, cap objectives, flame light troops off objectives or nuke vehicles. If your enemy wants to kill them fine, focus a whole unit on 1-2 guys and leave my heavy weapon squads alone....that'll work real well for you.

Allies:

Alright listen. Deathwatch is a super cool army, fun to play, incredible to model and have the posibility to be fairly strong (in my humble opinion, you just have to play them very well)...BUT...they're probably better as allies to IoM armies.

Deathwatch as Allies: Killteams are amazing. Ignore all the people saying "why would you take this it has x" everything has its purpose and they're just not reading. Find what your army is lacking; do you lack anti armour? anti 2+ anti horde? Pick and build one of the killteams that offers the rerolls against the most likely unit type, chuck them in a drop pod, and then drop down and nuke that annoying elements off the board with those glorious rerolls of all wounds.

Allies for Deathwatch: Imperial Guard.

Okay now seriously Space Marines are best used to bring in armour if you want it I guess? Some sort of centurions? I'm not a space marine guru and this hasn't really been covered yet, I'm spitballing here.

Imperial guard bring in mass troops, giving you bodies you seriously need and rerollable armour/invuln saves on those beautiful breacher squads from your priests. Can also be used to bring in armoured support if you want, wyverns are always beastly.

Inquisition is fluffly as all getout, inquisitors with rad/psychotrope grenades and crusaders etc

Sisters with mass flamers and meltas, allowing your DW to focus on MC and 2+ hunting?

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Alright guys I'm done here for this update, I'll comb back through and make sure I haven't missed anything. Hope this little collection on the front page helps any newcomers. Read through for more specifics.

Cheers all,

Qwerty2jam

I always build lists from a fluff direction first. So for me, they will always be an allied force and I hope the formations reflect that. I was actually surprised this is being treated as a full codex instead of a supplement or mini Inquisition-style codex.
In fact I might have been content with running the HQ/unique squad from the Overkill box codex for a while. But I didn't like the schizophrenic wargear loadout forced on you in those datasheets, so I am very interested in what this release has to offer.

I'll repost here what I posted in the rumour thread:

Sadly, I don't think most of the options will be usable. I foresee two veteran squad loadouts that will be be spammed. 1) Snipers with backup bolters accompanied by a librarian with the shielding relic. 2) The frag cannon spam with some extra bodies with bolters. Backup shotguns for everyone for massive wall of death, except maybe some meltas instead shotguns for few guys. Possibly couple of storm shields at the first rank. Add a librarian or single vanguard (can be one of the shield guys) to make it aquila-compliant.

I just don't see the melee stuff being viable, the weapons are just overpriced.

I hope I'm wrong!


Now, that being said, I'd love to see some viable melee builds and have been thinking about the subject a bit. CC weapons are silly expensive on veterans, so it is best to make a combined squad of vanguards and veterans. Veterans can take heavy thunder hammers (and pay same price for them as the vanguard) and they can take flamers which might be handy (and cheap!) They can also have a sergeant and a black shield (more about him later), both of which you obviously want in a melee squad. Vanguard can have discount priced melee weapons, so it is best to lead up with them. Lightning claws might be the best option. Again, it is good to have some storm shields, maybe even termies with shields and hammers.

Black shield is interesting, but equipping him is difficult. His double attacks activate when outnumbered, or when fighting MCs, ICs or Vehicles. Now, unless you're fighting orcs or some other horde type of enemy, you definitely want to give him a power fist (or a thunder hammer), otherwise his extra attacks will be pretty much wasted against vehicles and MCs. And if you want him to find characters he needs a storm shield or he will be instantly squished. But now we are looking at over 70 points for a single wound character... which is crazy. For reasonably priced infantry murdering goodness single lightning claw will suffice.

As for xenophase sword, I don't think it's worth it. Lighting claw will be cheaper and more effective most of the time. (Why have lightning claws to be so good? They look stupid on PA marines!)

And then there's the problem of getting them into combat. You can of course pod them, or teleport them via detachment tactic ot the teleport relic, but that means one turn eating plasma. Land raider and Corvus are the available assault vehicles. Now, usually assault flyers are a bit dodgy, as they get killed instantly once the start to hover, but with its jink re-rolls Corvus is actually pretty durable, and it is cheaper (and faster!) than LR anyway so it might be the way to go.

 Crimson wrote:
I'll repost here what I posted in the rumour thread:

Sadly, I don't think most of the options will be usable. I foresee two veteran squad loadouts that will be be spammed. 1) Snipers with backup bolters accompanied by a librarian with the shielding relic. 2) The frag cannon spam with some extra bodies with bolters. Backup shotguns for everyone for massive wall of death, except maybe some meltas instead shotguns for few guys. Possibly couple of storm shields at the first rank. Add a librarian or single vanguard (can be one of the shield guys) to make it aquila-compliant.

I just don't see the melee stuff being viable, the weapons are just overpriced.

I hope I'm wrong!


Now, that being said, I'd love to see some viable melee builds and have been thinking about the subject a bit. CC weapons are silly expensive on veterans, so it is best to make a combined squad of vanguards and veterans. Veterans can take heavy thunder hammers (and pay same price for them as the vanguard) and they can take flamers which might be handy (and cheap!) They can also have a sergeant and a black shield (more about him later), both of which you obviously want in a melee squad. Vanguard can have discount priced melee weapons, so it is best to lead up with them. Lightning claws might be the best option. Again, it is good to have some storm shields, maybe even termies with shields and hammers.

Black shield is interesting, but equipping him is difficult. His double attacks activate when outnumbered, or when fighting MCs, ICs or Vehicles. Now, unless you're fighting orcs or some other horde type of enemy, you definitely want to give him a power fist (or a thunder hammer), otherwise his extra attacks will be pretty much wasted against vehicles and MCs. And if you want him to find characters he needs a storm shield or he will be instantly squished. But now we are looking at over 70 points for a single wound character... which is crazy. For reasonably priced infantry murdering goodness single lightning claw will suffice.

As for xenophase sword, I don't think it's worth it. Lighting claw will be cheaper and more effective most of the time. (Why have lightning claws to be so good? They look stupid on PA marines!)

And then there's the problem of getting them into combat. You can of course pod them, or teleport them via detachment tactic ot the teleport relic, but that means one turn eating plasma. Land raider and Corvus are the available assault vehicles. Now, usually assault flyers are a bit dodgy, as they get killed instantly once the start to hover, but with its jink re-rolls Corvus is actually pretty durable, and it is cheaper (and faster!) than LR anyway so it might be the way to go.

Yeah not very impressed with the codex in terms of efficient CC options.

The frag cannon spam will be pretty popular, but the issue is getting them close enough to use it before getting shred into pieces. If you load them up into a drop pod, they'll just end up being a one shot wonder or worse scatter out of range of the intended target. At least Eldar D-scythes don't have to worry about scattering with a web way portal. Another option is load them up in that flyer, but now you have to wait until at least turn 2 or mostly 3 to even do anything with that expensive unit. And the kill teams are too expensive to run efficiently as MSUs and no obsec.

What are people thinking about the Stalker Bolters? They seem good for sniper weapons.

If I am reading things right, does it say that you can basically build terminator devastator squads?!?!

I think the option of deepstriking 5 assault cannons or having 5 cyclone missile launchers wander up from the board edge is going to be very popular!

Well I think due to the cost of the melee options that if you want to go for that you need to go all in. The squad is still a 1 wound marine squad, regardless of shields etc so they need to hit hard and fast making assault vehicles a necessity.

If I were to do it, I would take 2 melee focused units in 2 Corvus blackstars in a flyer wing from death from the skies. +1 to reserves and attack bonus make it more reliable to me.

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Renesco yes you can, certainly one of the stronger options is to build some of the kill teams with a single bike, 5 veterans, 3-4 terminators. Build it in the decurion to give it deep strike then you get to drop down with 7-8 heavy weapons of choice, 1 special weapon and 1 TL Bolter, all with splitfire.

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PM, personally I've never been a huge sniper fan. As far as snipers go yes they are amazing with special issue ammo and heavy 2, certainly 20 shots, or 10 from a killteam, all with 2+ to wound or so 3 at 30" should be pretty effective. However to me not being able to move is such a crippling effect for me. Maybe it's just may play style but I can't stand stationary elements (pun totally intended).

I don't think the CC options are bad, it's certainly not a CC army, but there is room for CC elements.

I'm thinking an aquila kill team, 2 HTH (1 blackshield) 1 melta bomb, and 2 chainfist termies.

Comes in at 280 points, and can reliable take on a LoW with blackstar support, which is nice given the lack of Anti LoW mission tactics or formations.

Fly in T2, and get right up on top of them, T3, hover disembark, Concuss the target with stormstrikes, and watch the squad clean up. If they get a lucky stomp , you lose no less points than them.

They are definitely a shooting army. No good way to get into melee outside of expensive transports. And oddly no real alpha strike bonus rules. They need to recruit more Ravenguard for Turn 1 reserves.

The Frag Cannon is the go to heavy weapon, it can fight anything. The infernus isn't worth it due to the Frag Cannon.

Frag cannons look awesome, but its so expensive to kit out a squad with them. Anyone thinking there's some viability in running less than 4 frag cannons and/or running max combi weapons to keep the special ammo around and then have a shotgun as back-up?

Anyone else planning on running more than one Corvus? At this point I'm not even bothered if its competitive because it looks so freaking cool. That said, AV12/12/11 with ceramite and re-roll jinks seems like a pretty solid gunship and transport for moving squads around.

Corvus Blackstar seems like a more efficient Stormraven. Same transport capacity, 1 less AV on the rear, very similar default weapon loadouts, priced similarly and both are Assault Transports. Blackstar can get Strafing Run (Auspex Array upgrade) and re-roll jinks (Infernum Halo Launcher) but lose out on Power of the Machine Spirit

The Blackstar can also be taken as a DT for Veteran Teams, which means you can take one for a Kill Team formation. And being a DT means you could Outflank it if you happened to get Infiltrate (via Warlord Trait) on the Veteran squad - some tasty side/rear armour shots with the Assault Cannon/Stormstrike Missiles coming in from outflank would be cool.

I'm building a squad purely as an ally you my inquisition, looking at two frag cannons, combi srg and two shotguns as the base with another couple built up with close combat options, hammer blackmailed and claw/shield perhaps. Fill out with a hflamer/melta term and a libby.
I intend to drop it in a pod as a surgical strike tool, expensive but deadly to most things

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


The frag cannon spam will be pretty popular, but the issue is getting them close enough to use it before getting shred into pieces. If you load them up into a drop pod, they'll just end up being a one shot wonder or worse scatter out of range of the intended target.

This is kind of a problem with skyhammer grav spam as well, and nobody seems to consider skyhammer underpowered. Granted DW is more points for fewer shots, shorter range and weaker special rules but you do have the benefit of being just as effective if you end up fighting a lot of vehicles or light infantry. Inquisitors and loads of skulls would be mandatory for this build though. Beacon Angelis might work if you can drop your first squad in the right place, since GW neglected to require that the bearer start the turn on the board in order to use the no-scatter rule. At any rate I'm not too worried about pods scattering out of range since you can only scatter 12" and you get to disembark within 6" of the pod, and then you have to account for the size of the pod's base.

With aquila teams in drop pods you're forced to use either a term or librarian to lead, but if you're really lucky one of your libs might roll Invis and your squad will be good for more than one turn.

the 4-frag cannon drop squad seems kind of boring but it's the only thing that makes me want to take some of these guys as allies. Poison stalker snipers sound fun but getting them into the right position to shoot seems like a hassle.

Real News wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


The frag cannon spam will be pretty popular, but the issue is getting them close enough to use it before getting shred into pieces. If you load them up into a drop pod, they'll just end up being a one shot wonder or worse scatter out of range of the intended target.

This is kind of a problem with skyhammer grav spam as well, and nobody seems to consider skyhammer underpowered. Granted DW is more points for fewer shots, shorter range and weaker special rules but you do have the benefit of being just as effective if you end up fighting a lot of vehicles or light infantry. Inquisitors and loads of skulls would be mandatory for this build though. Beacon Angelis might work if you can drop your first squad in the right place, since GW neglected to require that the bearer start the turn on the board in order to use the no-scatter rule. At any rate I'm not too worried about pods scattering out of range since you can only scatter 12" and you get to disembark within 6" of the pod, and then you have to account for the size of the pod's base.

With aquila teams in drop pods you're forced to use either a term or librarian to lead, but if you're really lucky one of your libs might roll Invis and your squad will be good for more than one turn.

the 4-frag cannon drop squad seems kind of boring but it's the only thing that makes me want to take some of these guys as allies. Poison stalker snipers sound fun but getting them into the right position to shoot seems like a hassle.

Skyhammer is more flexible as you can choose to come in turn 1 or 2. Chances of wasting a unit of frag vets during a turn is higher than sky hammer.

I am having a hard time deciding between the decurion or just a CAD.

I feel like the detachment would work but you would need some allied objective secured.

Get 4-5 kill teams at around 200-250 points each, couple characters, and then 400-500 points in allies - Thinking White Scars Scouts in land speeder storms. Would also work because you could use them as inquisitorial storm trooper types(or just use Tempestus but not as good)

I have always wanted to add an allied unit of Sternguard to my Dark Angels army and was going to paint them as Deathwatch. I was going to keep them simple and mainly be a shooting unit in a drop pod.

Is there a reason to actually take the DW veteran units over a normal SM sternguard suad?

 GoonBandito wrote:
Corvus Blackstar seems like a more efficient Stormraven. Same transport capacity, 1 less AV on the rear, very similar default weapon loadouts, priced similarly and both are Assault Transports. Blackstar can get Strafing Run (Auspex Array upgrade) and re-roll jinks (Infernum Halo Launcher) but lose out on Power of the Machine Spirit

The Blackstar can also be taken as a DT for Veteran Teams, which means you can take one for a Kill Team formation. And being a DT means you could Outflank it if you happened to get Infiltrate (via Warlord Trait) on the Veteran squad - some tasty side/rear armour shots with the Assault Cannon/Stormstrike Missiles coming in from outflank would be cool.

The Corvus blackstar does not have any special rules to disembark while flying, the stormraven does. Having to go into hover to disembark slows this down as a troop carrier.

Soss wrote:
I have always wanted to add an allied unit of Sternguard to my Dark Angels army and was going to paint them as Deathwatch. I was going to keep them simple and mainly be a shooting unit in a drop pod.

Is there a reason to actually take the DW veteran units over a normal SM sternguard suad?

You can take a Libby, 5 Sternguard, and a unit of Scouts as an Allied Detachment, or you can take a Aquila Killteam consisting of 5 Deathwatch Veterans and a Librarian and get to re-roll 1s To Wound and Artmor Penetration with them.

So I, like I'm sure a lot of people are, am looking at my shiny new Venerable Dreadnought wondering "what am I going to do with you".

Normally a venerable dread is a model I wouldn't even consider, an ironclad is the only model that looks remotely usable with that s6 immunity from the av13.

However the deathwatch codex is rather limited in its non infantry units, can a ven dread be in anyway useful? perhaps a long range fire support or a suicide pod to draw fire from the 1w 3+ guys?

Kaliban101 wrote:
So I, like I'm sure a lot of people are, am looking at my shiny new Venerable Dreadnought wondering "what am I going to do with you".

Normally a venerable dread is a model I wouldn't even consider, an ironclad is the only model that looks remotely usable with that s6 immunity from the av13.

However the deathwatch codex is rather limited in its non infantry units, can a ven dread be in anyway useful? perhaps a long range fire support or a suicide pod to draw fire from the 1w 3+ guys?

FW teased that you can use contemptors in DW so I am waiting to see if they FAQ the contemptor as well as the Terminator Captain armor.

Rihgu wrote:

Soss wrote:
I have always wanted to add an allied unit of Sternguard to my Dark Angels army and was going to paint them as Deathwatch. I was going to keep them simple and mainly be a shooting unit in a drop pod.

Is there a reason to actually take the DW veteran units over a normal SM sternguard suad?

You can take a Libby, 5 Sternguard, and a unit of Scouts as an Allied Detachment, or you can take a Aquila Killteam consisting of 5 Deathwatch Veterans and a Librarian and get to re-roll 1s To Wound and Artmor Penetration with them.

More than that, you can take something like an Aquila Kill Team as your primary detachment so that you only have to take one troops choice from the other larger facction you wish to use.

And KT's are very handy for alpha striking. Turn up via drop pod on turn one with 4 Frag Cannons, a meltagun, re-rolls up the arse and a Librarian for psyspam.

I've been actually kind of impressed at basic Sternguard weaponry, in casual games, the special issue ammo is surprisingly good. DW has that all day and you get what, five bolters? The shotguns and frag cannon are excellent, and I actually like the Infernus too. What are people doing with the Stalker? I could see a squad of five armed with it, but it's silly that there's only one in the kit.

Clearly there are a wealth of options. Here's a question, let's assume most people building this army have a box of Overkill and a box of Death Masque. What's decent to make with just those models? I'd like to maybe run twenty or twenty five models altogether and am scratching my head about what to do, there just are so many options.

Okay guys and gals and attack helicopters here's an idea,

A small point before we begin is that this relies on a Land Raider, with a unit embarked inside and not taken as a dedicated transport , still counts as 'a unit'.

The Deathwatch get a relic called 'The Beacon Angelis' which, if the bearer is on the table, allows them to pick another Deathwatch unit on the table and deepstrike them within 6" of the beacons bearer. A few points to note;

1. It doesn't say that the bearer has to be on the board at the start of your turn, allowing you to bring that model down from reserve and then use the ability
2. This ability takes place in your movement phase
3. Bikers can take teleport homers to remove scatter

So the idea works as such;

1. Will only really work in a CAD or in the decurion.
2. A killteam or squad, assembled as you like with a drop pod to gain drop pod assault, maybe 3 to get 2 down first turn.
3. Your nice beefy deathstar squad of your best tomfoolery in a Land Raider of choice (or any vehicle or not at all really, just using a LR for added survivabilty, firepower and mind games)
4. Drop Pod assault your beacon squad in, if you're running a bike in it for the homer you have the issue of only 7 other guys. I would likey use stalker bolters and drop them midfield next to terrain to get them in to place.
5. Activate the beacon and leapfrog the landraider and super squad forward 6 inches, probably into your enemies frontline/backfield and cause havoc.

Survivability of the super squad is the main issue, my thoughts are a land raider/transport, 4 librarians (max for a killteam right?) fishing for invis, stormshields with a guard ally for a minisortum priest (reroll saves).

This could be a fancy little trick? It's expensive as hell and would only really work in a full DW army or as an expensive ally in a large game but could be fun and/or effective. My super unit idea is honestly 4 frag cannons, 4 libs and an assault cannon termie/HQ with the big book of camping (4++ if you stay still, which in the enemies backline ain't so bad)

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Kaliban101 I might also reccomend the above idea for early/lower point games as a use for your dreadnaught, droppod/DS 2 squads in, leapfrog your dreadnaught forward as additional damage/distraction carnifex. Solves one of the worst problems which is movement.

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As to close combat with these guys I certainly think they have some good options but as with most combat in this game that isn't some unholy deathstar/superfriends you have to ask the question....why would you? I see these guys having a ton of potential as an extremely flexible shooting alpha strike army. We will just have to see I guess.

Ooof. A pinpoint deep striking Dreadnaught is actually pretty scary to a lot of things. Parking lots, Thunderfire Cannons, anything without reliable anti-tank really. Maybe there's a use for that Venerable after all.

aushlo wrote:
I've been actually kind of impressed at basic Sternguard weaponry, in casual games, the special issue ammo is surprisingly good. DW has that all day and you get what, five bolters? The shotguns and frag cannon are excellent, and I actually like the Infernus too. What are people doing with the Stalker? I could see a squad of five armed with it, but it's silly that there's only one in the kit.

Clearly there are a wealth of options. Here's a question, let's assume most people building this army have a box of Overkill and a box of Death Masque. What's decent to make with just those models? I'd like to maybe run twenty or twenty five models altogether and am scratching my head about what to do, there just are so many options.

My plan with that is to CAD initially, though that's partly because I just don't like formations. Leaving out the VenDread as I want that for my Crimson Fists, this is the plan:

Watch Captain (or Artemis, pending points and options)
Librarian or Chaplain

Deathwatch Kill Team featuring the SW, IH (combi-melta) and DA (power sword, Plasma pistol, as sergeant) from Overkill, plus two more Bolter or Combi Deathwatch. The 'tactical' squad in this setup.

Deathwatch Kill Team featuring the Ultramarine and Imperial Fist (Frag Cannon) from Overkill plus one Frag Cannon, one Infernus Heavy Bolter and one Heavy Bolter (from the bits box, otherwise you'll need to settle for soemthing like a Stalker or Shotgun). These guys fill the 'Devastator' role.

Vanguard Veterans with the BA and Raven (2xLC) from Overkill, plus 3 more Vanguard, I'm tempted to keep them light but I might throw on a Storm Shield or Thunder Hammer. These guys fill the 'Assault' role.

All that comes to around 700-750 points, I think, so should make a nice force to go half-and-half with another (in my case that'll be SM or AdMech), or stand alone in smaller games.

aushlo wrote:
I've been actually kind of impressed at basic Sternguard weaponry, in casual games, the special issue ammo is surprisingly good. DW has that all day and you get what, five bolters? The shotguns and frag cannon are excellent, and I actually like the Infernus too. What are people doing with the Stalker? I could see a squad of five armed with it, but it's silly that there's only one in the kit.

Clearly there are a wealth of options. Here's a question, let's assume most people building this army have a box of Overkill and a box of Death Masque. What's decent to make with just those models? I'd like to maybe run twenty or twenty five models altogether and am scratching my head about what to do, there just are so many options.

For some reason, GW seems determined to make all DW units have no focus whatsoever - all pictures of them show each model having wildly different weapons than their squadmates. It's like they think that nobody wants a DW squad to have some sort of use for the cost.

With the addition of a drop pod and two terminators and a spare meltagun, I get this:



Largely because the DM box forces all boltgun marines to use power swords, too. Which makes no damn sense.

As for my team's tactics, they are designed to DP next to vehicles or assault-vulnerable expensive units and kill stuff dead on T1+2. Sergeant takes challenges and hopes to negate some Ap3 with his SS. Libby does magical stuff on Biomancy. HTH Blackshield and the Chainfist termie do tank-murdering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aushlo wrote:
anything without reliable anti-tank really.

So, CSM, IG, some Ork builds...

The usual.

Selyn at the risk of telling you what you already know, all your vets can take both a boltgun and a shotgun for free, at the same time if you give up your ccw.

I find that generally in my meta there might be the odd bit of anti tank scattered around but unless I'm playing my eldar friend, they're going to have to dedicate a couple of squads to it, which is FINE for a big distraction carnifex, some major mind games there.

Also yeah, if you want optimal loadouts you might have to go bitz shopping for a while because you do NOT get the bits to do it.

The sprues do not allow that.

Also, I vaguely recall reading a FB post where the design team disallowed that.

Yeah, again if you ever want to model them for peak combat ability it's gonna take some time and bits.

The problem with that is they never really addressed the issue. The person replying didn't understand if you read it and didn't actually disallow it. Eventually they said they would pass it on to the rules team for a verdict, I haven't heard anything since then.

The kitchen sink motif on those pictured squads really is funny. The Dreadnaught will definitely need to pick its targets carefully. Why do they keep making sprues with all the same option on the same side arms? Maddening.

I'm looking at bits and seeing a pair of combi-meltas, pair of frag, pair of shotguns, infernus and special issue bolters as interesting, I like the tower shields too. The stalker will wait until later when more become available. I find myself wanting Sternguard, not the Vanguard we got. It does seem like having a guy to tank wounds with the shield could be good against things like Ordnance and such. Considering the cost of the models, it might actually be worthwhile. That said, a Terminator might be better for that.

Looking at weapons and kill team roles I'm seeing this:

Terminator w HF. Melta, two models with Combi-melta, two with Heavy Thunder Hammers or Shield and normal TH maybe, arrive by Deep strike as a Malleus kill team. Good place to put a Black Shield.

Two Frag, two Shotguns, and probably the Infernus bolter, plus Bikers, as a Venator kill team or perhaps Furor. No jink for you, bike face. Or die, horde.

Two Vanguard Vets with Claws or TH/SS, Black Shield with TH/SS or Heavy Hammer, Sergeant with Xenophase Blade, twin Claw or TH/SS terminator and maybe some variety of Gunslinger (two Melta Pistols?) as a Purgatus, or drop the Terminator and go Dominatus. Not sure on other Vet loadout here.

Obviously, turning any or all of these into a Strategium option could be good too.

Should you use the Black Spear detachment, DReadnaught is the cheapest tax unit although the Blackstar is probably much better almost always.

So many Options in this army i feel kind of overwhelmed...

I like the idea of the Kill Team incorporation Termis and Vanguards, the added options and special rules are pretty neat, but it fells like a lot of stuff could be done with a CAD for fewer points.

I'm kind of playing with the idea of putting a bunch of stuff into droppods for some hurtfull Alpha Strikes and holding objectives within the enemy deployment.

- 1 Dread in Pod with Multimelta and Fist for some tank hunting
- 2 pods with Veterans, one fitted for Tank/MC hunting (Frag Cannon and Melta) and one for mass infantry killing (Shotguns/Infernum Bolter)

2 pods come first turn and with the chapt tactic you can pretty much alpha anything you dont like.

Keep some Termis in DS-reserve, add a bike group for additional Teleport homers and Meltabombing and 1 or 2 Veteran troops with little extras in Rhino or Razorback.

This should keep the Army mobile enough to fight for objectives while not making them super squishy thanks to transports and 3+ Jink Bikes.

 Leth wrote:

Kaliban101 wrote:
So I, like I'm sure a lot of people are, am looking at my shiny new Venerable Dreadnought wondering "what am I going to do with you".

Normally a venerable dread is a model I wouldn't even consider, an ironclad is the only model that looks remotely usable with that s6 immunity from the av13.

However the deathwatch codex is rather limited in its non infantry units, can a ven dread be in anyway useful? perhaps a long range fire support or a suicide pod to draw fire from the 1w 3+ guys?

FW teased that you can use contemptors in DW so I am waiting to see if they FAQ the contemptor as well as the Terminator Captain armor.

Ohh where did you see that hint? A cataphractii captain with some stalker bolter veterans would be pretty handy.



As with any elite infantry force, Lias Issodon would make a handy ally allowing options other than drop pods for getting frag cannons in range. Also a bit rules lawyer-y and definitely not rules as intended but being as deathwatch aren't in the FAQ wouldn't the scout and 1st stealth of any raptor ICs confer to squads due to not having chapter tactics as such and not being any of the mentioned meq forces that cancel out chapter tactics.

A fluffy option I'd like to get to work but can't figure out how is and ordo xeno inquisitor, rad grenades with heavy thunder hammers would be pretty nasty, but with allies being unable to be deployed in transports in the FAQ I can't think of an effective delivery method.

An aquila killteam of 9 veterans with stalker bolters + regular bolters and a librarian with the Aegis relic would be pretty rude if you manage to roll Phase Form on one of your libs. Go wherever you want, sit wherever you want, shoot anything within range twice, ignore cover. Reroll 1s to hit, wound on a rerollable 2+ with sniper-rending. Great for hunting bikes.

I like the idea of solo terminators (maybe with a cyclone + storm shield) but I think you have to run a CAD to use terms by themselves, which means two vet squads without kill team rerolls.

Whats everyone thoughts on the Deathwatch bikes? For 30 points (35 with a power weapon of your choice) you get a veteran stat line on a bike with special ammo, skilled rider and split fire. I was thinking of taking small squads of 2 to get some good MSU going on while still retaining punch.

I'm going to give them a first go tomorrow. Right now I don't have any concrete lists or tactics, aside from every veteran counts as having a backup shotgun instead of a chainsword. I haven't modeled any this way yet, because there's a chance an FAQ or designers note would prohibit it. It's obviously RAW, but some folks in the rumors thread acted as though it was obviously an oversight. I don't feel that way and eventually I'll paint some shotguns and attach them strapped to my model's backs ala gears of war.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Whats everyone thoughts on the Deathwatch bikes? For 30 points (35 with a power weapon of your choice) you get a veteran stat line on a bike with special ammo, skilled rider and split fire. I was thinking of taking small squads of 2 to get some good MSU going on while still retaining punch.

Probably not a bad tactic, but consider an Aquila Kill Team with a single bike. He would confer split fire to the whole squad, so your combi-melta can fire at a vehicle and the biker can pour his special issue ammunition into an infantry unit along with the rest of the bolters. Then you have options for where to charge afterwards. As a minor bonus, the whole unit gets skilled rider, meaning even the foot-dudes auto-pass dangerous terrain tests!

The super-MSU idea is probably more practical, though. I used to have great success with single Big Mek bikes hiding out of LOS and being very disruptive to certain armies.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Whats everyone thoughts on the Deathwatch bikes? For 30 points (35 with a power weapon of your choice) you get a veteran stat line on a bike with special ammo, skilled rider and split fire. I was thinking of taking small squads of 2 to get some good MSU going on while still retaining punch.

Probably not a bad tactic, but consider an Aquila Kill Team with a single bike. He would confer split fire to the whole squad, so your combi-melta can fire at a vehicle and the biker can pour his special issue ammunition into an infantry unit along with the rest of the bolters. Then you have options for where to charge afterwards. As a minor bonus, the whole unit gets skilled rider, meaning even the foot-dudes auto-pass dangerous terrain tests!

The super-MSU idea is probably more practical, though. I used to have great success with single Big Mek bikes hiding out of LOS and being very disruptive to certain armies.

I thought of that, but the problem I ran into is that they would be forced to footslog and just die or take the good, but expensive flyer.

I'm pretty much planning on Aquila KT's right now, have a Missile Launcher team in the mix with terminators and a lib for divination, but since you can only do 4 heavy weapons, I'm not sure what to do with the 5th vet. Probably going to upgrade to sergeant for a character to take challenges if they get charged, and give him a stalker.

Then I'm thinking of a stalker squad, again with lib for divination.

The obligatory drop pod Frag Cannon team.

My biggest worry is heavy armor, as there's actually a decent amount of it in my meta. So I'm thinking possibly a Malleus KT for Heavy Support tactics with TH/SS terms, a HTH or two vets, and SS protecting the beatsticks. But how to get them where they need to be? Dunno the best way. Maybe just more frag cannons instead? Impact is pretty beast for a special rule.

If FW allows the BaC stuff to be used with DW, that could be very very cool.

Also, I'm currently looking at using the Decurion, but I really don't think I'll make a lot of use of the deep strike, outside of the Malleus KT (if I build it).

BossJakadakk wrote:


My biggest worry is heavy armor, as there's actually a decent amount of it in my meta. So I'm thinking possibly a Malleus KT for Heavy Support tactics with TH/SS terms, a HTH or two vets, and SS protecting the beatsticks. But how to get them where they need to be? Dunno the best way. Maybe just more frag cannons instead? Impact is pretty beast for a special rule.
.

The answer is always more Aquila Frag Cannons.

IMO Deathwatch melee will not be competitive. They are slow, expensive, and not durable. T4 W1 is easy to take down(relative to the points). Just a HTH Vet is 52 points! You'd need a Corvus Blackstar to get them into melee.

I'm hoping that they get something to make their melee viable in the form of a White Dwarf formation.

What's the thought on blackshields?

From what I understand the optimal loadout would be shield and hammer, but would it get his points back?

Or are his rules easily overlooked for the RoC factor that he brings in?

Veteran with BS and HTH costs 67 points. From a practicality standpoint, he's a liability. From a coolness perspective YAAAAAAAAAAY!

Played my first (technically 2) matches with DeathWatch yesterday. The first game was just a skirmish, 150 point vet squad vs another vet squad for a new player. I managed to get in range for vengeance rounds before he did so that ended quickly.

The second match was an actual game - 1500 points vs an ork horde! My list was a black spear strike force:
Command - Chaplain
Command - Captain - Xenophase, Jump Pack, Artificier
Command - Captain - TDA, Relic Blade, Beacon Angelis, Auspex (that i completely forgot to use)

Aux - Venerable Dread - TLLC/HF
Aux - Venerable Dread - Assault Cannon/HF

Core - Aquila KT - LIbrarian - ML2, Tome of Ectoclades (Geokinesis)
7x Veterans - 6x Stalker Boltguns, 1x Bolter

Core - Strategium KT - Captain Artemis
Aquila KT - 5x Veterans, Combi-Meltas
2x Vanguard - 2xStormShield/Lightning Claw
2x Terminators - 2x MeltaFists, 1x Heavy Flamer


The Ork horde was 4 units of 30 boyz with choppa/slugga/nob-PK/BP, a warboss in eavy armor with headwoppa's killchoppa, a unit of 15 lootas with a big mek in mega armor, a painboy (in the mob of boys with the warboss), and 5x rokkit buggies.

the mission we rolled up was the relic - good for me as he had me outnumbered and far more units than I did. I had first turn, and immediately moved to the center of the board. Most of his shooting bounced off my 2+ saves i had in the front of my strategium kill team, though he did instagib my librarian with an outflanking rokkit buggy. The huge KT chewed through 2 units of ork boys in melee, shot another to pieces and caused them to run away, and also destroyed all the lootas in 1 round of combat. Mission Tactics, and hatred from the chaplain both played a huge role in their success.

Overall I had worries at the start of the game that I wouldn't have a chance. But by the end of the game I had only lost my 2 dreads (to power klaws) and 3 infantry models. I can't wait to get home later today and paint another couple of veterans now.

If I can get stuff together through this week, I might play DW in a 1250 event on Sunday. Just depends on how much time I have, and what comes in, because the list I wrote for it is pretty much small squads in a Black Spear SF with different loadouts to try out different weapons.

@Tetrisphreak: How did rolling on Geokinesis work out for you in the stalker squad? I keep looking at powers and thinking Divination is what I want to use in a general sense for my Aquilas, changing for (possibly) certain matchups.

so far ive decided on 2 furor kill teams consisting on 2x9 vets with all stalkers and back up bolters to move and shoot and a cyclone termy each, to sit on back field objectives as dragon fire + sniper vs bikes means 6's are just fatal and with the reroll to wound vs troops (space marine and eldar bikers heck even zhadsnarks bikers) its lethal, then 2 sets of 5 aquila kill teams with 4 frag cannons, watch sergeant with auspex and another pair of cyclone termies.

I was debating a CC squad for artemis but my god it piles up in pts quick... thats the only part im stuck on atm, a squad for artemis..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also had an idea of either squads of 1 or 2 vanguard vets with dual hand flamers/inferno pistols jumping round the board being an annoyance capping objectives or roasting small squads to make way for other units to clear line of sight... what do you guys think of small vanguard squads?

They either over kill them or leave them alone to be a harrassment team.

 deffrekka wrote:

I also had an idea of either squads of 1 or 2 vanguard vets with dual hand flamers/inferno pistols jumping round the board being an annoyance capping objectives or roasting small squads to make way for other units to clear line of sight... what do you guys think of small vanguard squads?

They either over kill them or leave them alone to be a harrassment team.

I was thinking about something like this too. It's kinda funny to me. It's risky, but yeah, you could make them use a whole squad to shoot at 1 or 2 models, while your units that actually matter are raising hell elsewhere, unless your opponent wants to let the vanguards run amok. Would be pretty annoying units.

I had a thought in which I took three 1-man units of VV with HTH.

Stuff got krumped because they could abuse LOS rather easily what with being so small and fast, but they're hardly going to be popping a tank reliably with 2 attacks base and only a T4 3+ to save them.

Only problem is we only have 3 elite slots unless we take multiple CAD's.. shame wish the decurion had a auxillary for just vanguard and/or bikers

Yeah... annoying af.

See whyve theyve done it though, imagine 1+ squads of lone cowboy vanguard where only the pts limit is well.. the limit

BossJakadakk wrote:
If I can get stuff together through this week, I might play DW in a 1250 event on Sunday. Just depends on how much time I have, and what comes in, because the list I wrote for it is pretty much small squads in a Black Spear SF with different loadouts to try out different weapons.

@Tetrisphreak: How did rolling on Geokinesis work out for you in the stalker squad? I keep looking at powers and thinking Divination is what I want to use in a general sense for my Aquilas, changing for (possibly) certain matchups.

It was ok but I only rolled land quake and earth blood, and lost land quake to a perils. I chose geokinesis hoping for phase form, or shifting worldscape. Also I chose it because I knew he had a footslog horde army and there are lots of powers in that book that impede movement, and chasm is a great primaris vs an army with tons of 30-model units. But he died to a rokkit on turn 2 and had perils in turn 1 so I'll have to give the librarian more field research.

Unbound. 1500 points.

27 ish VV with HTH running aroubd as msu.

It makes sense, but at the same time makes me sad haha. They make all these units minimum size of 1, but only so that when they say "1 unit of X" in a formation, you only have to take 1 if you don't want more. I keep thinking about how I would build a CAD, but I just don't know. It honestly probably would just be filling elite slots with units of 2-3 vanguard vets. I'm not gonna take terminators on their own, don't want to buy a LR to throw them in, and dreadnoughts are pretty meh.

Plus, every time I look at making a CAD, I write down a troops unit and think how much better it is as an Aquila KT.

Pfft who plays unbound

Artemis used his stasis bomb to send a mega armor big mek out of space and time, so that was pretty awesome.

 deffrekka wrote:
Pfft who plays unbound

I might, now, with Selym's list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Artemis used his stasis bomb to send a mega armor big mek out of space and time, so that was pretty awesome.

Nice! Also, I've seen people saying that Artemis can replace a Captain in formations, is that in the Death Masque booklet? I didn't see it on his data sheet, and my box hasn't arrived yet :(

Yea its in the death masque book, same with the harlies, you can replace a squad in a formation with the named version

Is it bad that I'm honestly considering the hideously expensive thought of doing a squad that's 4x frag cannons, 5x Storm shields on vets and 4x Libs with choosing telepathy until I get invis, then divination/sanctic for whatever I can get?

Just seems to be the best way to get a survivable ball of death out there and with the ability to get it into the enemies board edge turn 1 with no scatter it could be amazingly alpha strikey.

Also I built my death masque models into a combat unit. Power swords, THT, TH/SH and a black shield. Should be pretty damn choppy, just need to get it to the enemy.

Your unit will cost as much as a titan, will risk failing the powers, and will have the damage output of two squads of devastators.

's a'ight.

I take it this is the Go-To shooty weapon? Drop podding in 5 dudes, with 4 of these and light them up?

Deatchwatch Frag cannon: Template S6 AP- Assault2, Rending

24" S7 AP3, Assault 2, Impact

Impact: if target is at 12" or less: S9 and AP2

Seems like they'll be one hit wonders to me.

I think deathwatch armies will always be outnumbered, so target priority and table awareness are key factors in successfully using them.

Has the FAQ ruled that a unit with a relentless model can actually declare charges if it rapid fires? Would make taking bikes mandatory for the ability to unload bolters into one unit, split off a pistol elsewhere then chew that unit up in melee.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
I think deathwatch armies will always be outnumbered, so target priority and table awareness are key factors in successfully using them.

Has the FAQ ruled that a unit with a relentless model can actually declare charges if it rapid fires? Would make taking bikes mandatory for the ability to unload bolters into one unit, split off a pistol elsewhere then chew that unit up in melee.

Relentless only affects the model.
Slow and purposeful affects the unit.

Still waiting on them to confirm the Bolter/Shotgun debate.

Just panned through the FAQs and nothing like I thought was in there. Even more reason to give assaulting kill teams shotguns.

 Selym wrote:
Veteran with BS and HTH costs 67 points. From a practicality standpoint, he's a liability. From a coolness perspective YAAAAAAAAAAY!

The Black Shield cannot have HTH. It's for veterans only, he's not a veteran.

(YMDC thread on the subject: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/699469.page)

Characters in the command slots do not get the reroll to wound from doctrines of whichever kill team they join with. Bummer. Hoping that gets an errata.

Nah, I think they were very careful with the wording on purpose to limit the ability of cross unit shenanigans happening.

I want rerolls on my relic blades man.

 Crimson wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Veteran with BS and HTH costs 67 points. From a practicality standpoint, he's a liability. From a coolness perspective YAAAAAAAAAAY!

The Black Shield cannot have HTH. It's for veterans only, he's not a veteran.

(YMDC thread on the subject: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/699469.page)

 Leth wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Leth wrote:
In regards to the swapping of equipment I always go with the interpretation that if there is no stated order of operations then you can do which ever.

If it does not say that you have to upgrade to a blackshield first then you can swap to a thunderhammer and then change to a black shield.

Then for things like terminators where you are required to swap specific gear if you do weapon swaps before hand then you no longer meet the requirements.

So on and so forth.

That's how I thought it was.

The SM FAQ says that we can't do that though.

What do you mean? It specifically says the opposite. You can buy stuff then upgrade.

Spoiler:

Seemed the sensible thing to do. I was on the side of not allowing it, but tbh the rules never have an order of operation.

I believe that Apothecary image was a typo, IIRC. The actual text said no.

However, I could be wrong.

Edit: Disregard. I am wrong.

Double disregard. I am correct.

Cephalobeard wrote:
I believe that Apothecary image was a typo, IIRC. The actual text said no.

However, I could be wrong.

Edit: Disregard. I am wrong.

No you're not:

nekooni wrote:
They just FAQ'd the FAQ for the Apothecary stuff in the comments

Hey Folks,
Whoops, we got one wrong there.
The last questions on this page, the answer should be “no”.

Please refrain from cutting all the arms of your Apothecaries, they need them for their Nartheciums.

Q: Is it possible for an Apothecary to carry items from the Special Weapons and/or Melee Weapons lists (e.g. by a Veteran purchasing upgrades, and being subsequently upgraded to an Apothecary)?
A: No.

Selym's Black Shields are gonna need a retcon! (Yes I'm saying this because I saw your comment in the YMDC thread )

Hardly massive. I found an extra Frag Cannon online, so he's getting that.

Fluff + Gameplay synergy... *shudder*

There are so many little oddities that models don't have access to in this codex. The black shield special rule is way strong if it could be used with the HTH, but at the same time, why would someone who has devoted his life to the DW not know how to use a DW-exclusive weapon?

For the same reason GW Told me on facebook you can't do Bolters/Shotguns because you need to replace the Bolter for a shotgun, despite being able to take a bolter instead of a CCW.

Consistency. /s

Mine have shotties already


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah im using recon marines as stalker bolters as feth only having 1 a pack -_-

I need to know what those Helmets are.

30k dark angel helmets, 30k recon marine shotguns and sector imperalis bases

Ill try take so close ups for you but my phone is famedddd for being at focusing in..

Best it will do..

 Crimson wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:
I believe that Apothecary image was a typo, IIRC. The actual text said no.

However, I could be wrong.

Edit: Disregard. I am wrong.

No you're not:

nekooni wrote:
They just FAQ'd the FAQ for the Apothecary stuff in the comments

Hey Folks,
Whoops, we got one wrong there.
The last questions on this page, the answer should be “no”.

Please refrain from cutting all the arms of your Apothecaries, they need them for their Nartheciums.

Q: Is it possible for an Apothecary to carry items from the Special Weapons and/or Melee Weapons lists (e.g. by a Veteran purchasing upgrades, and being subsequently upgraded to an Apothecary)?
A: No.

Well shoot, glad they are drafts. Hope they get them up soon because a LOT of precedents are being set in these FAQS. At least with deathwatch veterans they clarified any model. I should go back and check for other unit entries in past books to see if this is unique.

 Leth wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote:
I believe that Apothecary image was a typo, IIRC. The actual text said no.

However, I could be wrong.

Edit: Disregard. I am wrong.

No you're not:

nekooni wrote:
They just FAQ'd the FAQ for the Apothecary stuff in the comments

Hey Folks,
Whoops, we got one wrong there.
The last questions on this page, the answer should be “no”.

Please refrain from cutting all the arms of your Apothecaries, they need them for their Nartheciums.

Q: Is it possible for an Apothecary to carry items from the Special Weapons and/or Melee Weapons lists (e.g. by a Veteran purchasing upgrades, and being subsequently upgraded to an Apothecary)?
A: No.

Well shoot, glad they are drafts. Hope they get them up soon because a LOT of precedents are being set in these FAQS. At present this means that an apothecary, a blackshield, and many other similar unit upgrades cant take any equipment.

No, Black Shields can still take equipment that "any model" may take. They're just excluded from a few choices that are specifically for "Veterans"

Anyone else modified there artemis? His little sword really bugged me so i swapped it for a 30k one and i have a hatred for unhelmeted heads.. so he got a helmet

Yep, just caught that when I went back. Will need to look at other units to see if it matters for them. I think it is a matter of some entries saying veterans(then a veteran sgt cant take them) or any models etc.

They are getting much better about their wording so it will be interesting to see how the precedents in the FAQ will work their way into future wording.

Also I am totally gonna use Artemis as the base for another captain as well as one for him as himself. I am thinking I might do an arm swap since I want a different, longer, sword and so will have to see.

Eitherway if I get 3-4 of him I will find a use lol, he is the type of model and pose I would enjoy making into a similar CMD squad or as my black shields.

 deffrekka wrote:
Anyone else modified there artemis? His little sword really bugged me so i swapped it for a 30k one and i have a hatred for unhelmeted heads.. so he got a helmet

Yeah once mine finally gets here...he will be getting a helmet. I'd be shocked if the majority of players like marines without helmets.

All my marines even in 30k have helmets haha! :p

What about for a combat squad you do 5 vets with storm shields, watch sergeant has a xenophase blade, then sprinkle in some vanguard vets to get the the cheaper power weapons and throw in the odd HTH, kinda like a phalanx, shields at the front, weapons at the back, add in a chappie *strat kill team* and its a beat stick squad, granted, an expensive one.

I'm definitely gonna give him a helmet. I'll probably keep the sword, just because, well, it's *his* sword. I'm a believer in personal property

As for having to get all these extra bits for multiples of weapons, I'm gonna try out the Thunder Gun from Kromlech for Frag Cannons. It might be a bit small but as long as it's what is on every model with a "Frag Cannon" I should be good. It'll be identifiable, even if it takes an opponent a little bit to recognize. Plus I figure the situation will just be them looking at the squad, forgetting what the gun is, asking, and me telling them it's a frag cannon. I also got some shoulder pads from them to play around with some of my DW being from custom successor chapters. Just gotta play the waiting game for stuff to come in.

In the meantime, I'm finally putting my BaC stuff together, going to use the Mk IV as the basis of a lot of my DW.

Could even ally in a ravenwing strike force with black knights modelled like death watch bikers to throw stasis nades around to allow our guys to strike first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im guilty of splashing out £20 on 5 frag cannons from bits and kitz.. as that gives me 8 with my 3 death masque sets

I really wanna use the infernus heavy bolter but each time i look at it the frag cannon just beats it for 5pts more... :/

 deffrekka wrote:
Could even ally in a ravenwing strike force with black knights modelled like death watch bikers to throw stasis nades around to allow our guys to strike first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im guilty of splashing out £20 on 5 frag cannons from bits and kitz.. as that gives me 8 with my 3 death masque sets

I really wanna use the infernus heavy bolter but each time i look at it the frag cannon just beats it for 5pts more... :/

Yeah it really makes you scratch your head. The only time you should use an infernus is if you don't have a frag cannon bit to model and you really want a special weapon. I don't mean this to be insulting to them, sincerely I don't, but I wonder how the hell they come up with point values.

Can someone explain the appeal of the xenophase sword to me? I just don't see it as particularly good weapon.

 Crimson wrote:
Can someone explain the appeal of the xenophase sword to me? I just don't see it as particularly good weapon.

It's for when you wanna phase out the xenos. For real though, you're right, it doesn't seem particularly good to me. Just decent. It's a power sword with a bonus that may or may not ever matter that much.

Its better at killing daemons, harlies, eldar farseers and other power armour marines with invuns but bad vs armour 2 and high toughness gribbles

 deffrekka wrote:
Its better at killing daemons, harlies, eldar farseers and other power armour marines with invuns but bad vs armour 2 and high toughness gribbles

Yes, but a lightning claw is cheaper and is about as good for killing those targets and vastly better against targets without invulnerables.

Except daemons, harlies and other power armoured dudes with invuns will most likely kill your 47pt dude too :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I didnt say it was a good weapon it looks nice as in the model for it, but rules wise... Meh... I would have preferred a str buff or rending

 deffrekka wrote:
Anyone else modified there artemis? His little sword really bugged me so i swapped it for a 30k one and i have a hatred for unhelmeted heads.. so he got a helmet

I'm keeping him as/is, in an attempt to create a new character "Watch Captain Glory Hog". Not gonna be his actual name, but he steals glory and copied Artemis' idea of poison flamers and stasis grenades. He wil lead a team that rivals my Kill Team Kyral.

The sod.

Probably stores the things he captures with the grenade as trophies. Like pokemon, only more donkey-cave-ish.

Inventing the character reminded me of this: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Galactic_Partridges

Guess he's a Galactic Partridge now.

But who will store him.. when he catches himself...?!

 Bulldogging wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Could even ally in a ravenwing strike force with black knights modelled like death watch bikers to throw stasis nades around to allow our guys to strike first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im guilty of splashing out £20 on 5 frag cannons from bits and kitz.. as that gives me 8 with my 3 death masque sets

I really wanna use the infernus heavy bolter but each time i look at it the frag cannon just beats it for 5pts more... :/

Yeah it really makes you scratch your head. The only time you should use an infernus is if you don't have a frag cannon bit to model and you really want a special weapon. I don't mean this to be insulting to them, sincerely I don't, but I wonder how the hell they come up with point values.

I have a friend who picked out the IHB to be on his model. Because screw a 2-shot assault lascannon. Tbf, it is going in my "fluffy" kill team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deffrekka wrote:
But who will store him.. when he catches himself...?!

His name will long be remembered in the halls of glory.

Someone probably has an anti-stasis key. Likely a servitor.

An IG grenade launcher would make a good frag cannon. Or the FW Proteus missile launcher.

 deffrekka wrote:
Anyone else modified there artemis? His little sword really bugged me so i swapped it for a 30k one and i have a hatred for unhelmeted heads.. so he got a helmet

I have an absolute disdain of unhelmeted Marines (and anything in general actually) so I don't blame you for doing this at all.

I like unhelmeted marines. I figure that we are playing the artistic version, not the realistic version of future history. And if I am Artemis, then you bet I want the artist to paint me with my lovely firm jaw and blond locks visible.

I will take the Infernus over the frag cannon in a bunch of situations. It also synchronizes with the main squad armaments much better.

In ITC you can also use it against invis units as well as when you are overwatching.

I think with deathwatch its about specializing squads to go after specific targets. If you are doing the formation 1-2 troop hunters with the infernus wouldnt be bad.

 Leth wrote:
I will take the Infernus over the frag cannon in a bunch of situations. It also synchronizes with the main squad armaments much better.

In ITC you can also use it against invis units as well as when you are overwatching.

I think with deathwatch its about specializing squads to go after specific targets. If you are doing the formation 1-2 troop hunters with the infernus wouldnt be bad.

If you're expecting the squad to live after the drop off, the Infernus does help when you need to attack units not next to you.

Can also help when on the march generally. Or if facing a horde and you are defending stuff.

 Selym wrote:
Can also help when on the march generally. Or if facing a horde and you are defending stuff.

With Splitfire coming from a Biker you could hit units way afar while the other pelt someone nearby with Shotguns or Bolters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Can also help when on the march generally. Or if facing a horde and you are defending stuff.

With Splitfire coming from a Biker you could hit units way afar while the other pelt someone nearby with Shotguns or Bolters.

If you put a bike along with some Vanguard Veterans and a Shotgun kill team, you could fire the Shotguns at soft targets and the bike's TL Bolter at a harder target and charge it with the Vanguard Veterans.

A nice thing about bikers to consider as well is that if you are running the deathwatch detachment they make it so when you deep strike you will auto pass dangerous, preventing any unfortunately losses to terrain. In addition bringing split-fire to the unit is clutch with an elite army such as the deathwatch. You cant afford to spend an entire unit trying to finish off that last troop on the objective, but throw a shot or two at him from two units should make a huge difference.

Also, despite the number of power swords they give you.....its gonna be lightning claws all over the place since most units cant get a second CC weapon

Editted to correct for the below post

One of the conclusions I have reached is that deathwatch are basically wasted spending their time objective sitting. If you want them to be a main force you are going to need to invest in OS from allies.

To that end I am looking at Imperial Guard platoons as a solid, especially home area, OS units. I think this should work to an extent, about 1200 or so on DW and then 650 on IG. What deathwatch lack in numbers can be easily supplemented by IG, and they are good at getting some volume of fire. You can also take advantage of the 4+ invul relic in a blob, sit on 1-2 objectives and send out deathwatch to focus 100% on killing stuff.

 Leth wrote:

Also, despite the number of power swords they give you.....its gonna be lightning claws all over the place for the bikers since they dont have two weapons.

Bikers can't have lightning claws.

 Rbb wrote:
An IG grenade launcher would make a good frag cannon. Or the FW Proteus missile launcher.

I actually ordered some Proteus-II missile launchers top use as my frag cannons.

Whats peoples opinion on a pair of ASS dreads to sit with 2 furor stalker kill teams on the backfield?

I know dreads are crap but might aswell use the ones given to us

Alright so it's obvious as far as the punching goes Deathwatch does now lack in any way, however we encounter a problem in that with lower models counts our survivability is reduced.

So the great question we should discuss is how we counter this, I have only a few ideas, but am new to marines so others may have better ideas.

1. A storm shield or two should be mandatory in almost every squad, even ranged ones for that juicy 3++, still not going to increase the life expectancy by a great deal but stop ap2 ruining our day quite so much.

2. A lib in every squad finishing for invis/sanctic/some other ability. Problem is of course the random chance of it all, curse all primaris powers being combat powers.

Honesty I can think of much else and that's worries me. I realise this army is meant to punch hard an eliminate the enemies major threats before they can retaliate but if we fail at that we lose.

What else can we do people? Spam land raiders? Spam the Corvus? Are there any fortifications that might help? Is there an ally that might aid us?

---------------------

Also a question.....if we form one of the killteams, can we then attatch independent characters to it? Or does the kill team 'max 10 models' rule override that. I'm in the second camp but a mate of mine is in the former and I can see his point.



Cheers,

Qwerty

I think you can still attach characters, just IC's bought for the squad cant leave it...?

And im thinking for survivability just add more vets, like a squad of 10 bolter shotty vets does a lot of damage to a wide array of stuff (bar vehicles and if the combo is allowed) same with stalker squads.

Only problem ive found so far is your walords squad, if he could take a stalker with the bane bolts he'd join a unit of stalkers or missile vets but he cant, so you want a beat stick squad which quickly adds up to like 400pts :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But it all depends on your meta, my group has scat bikes, white scar bikers and cents, necrons, tau and daemons.

So a furor stalker team firing dragonfire has a good chance of just removing bikes and other troops on a 6


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you need 5's and 6's with a reroll to wound bikers with dragon fire rounds so half the wounds will be 6's

I really dig the idea of 3 drop pods total w/ first turn angelis beacon usage to deep strike land raider.

I've started building my vanguard vets, and the loadout I have so far for the five man squad is two guys with HTH and two guys with TH and SS (to help protect the two HTH guys...), and I'm not sure what my fifth guy should be....

I'm thinking either:

a- Dual pIstols, to soften the targets a bit, grav and plasma comes to mind...
b- Another shield, with either a claw, a hammer, or a pistol...
c- Something else that will be more useful...

 ChaosDad wrote:
I've started building my vanguard vets, and the loadout I have so far for the five man squad is two guys with HTH and two guys with TH and SS (to help protect the two HTH guys...), and I'm not sure what my fifth guy should be....

I'm thinking either:

a- Dual pIstols, to soften the targets a bit, grav and plasma comes to mind...
b- Another shield, with either a claw, a hammer, or a pistol...
c- Something else that will be more useful...

Rule of cool, but I suppose a Relic Blade and Storm Shield can be fairly effective. You aren't missing out on any attacks due to Two-Handed. Plus, a Str 6 AP 3 group of attacks at initiative is nothing to turn your nose up at, especially when everyone else is striking at I1.

I am still on the fence if i should get 2 or 3 Corvus Blackstars.. Is there a need to run 3 really?

Chaosdad that's the same load out and problem I had, I ended up going another thunder hammer but with a plasma pistol as well. I might be swapping that out though, not sure. I will say it's a really really expensive you it points wise, I worked mine out to be around 500pts for 10 guys....

Meh_ glad someone liked the idea, I'm fairly convinced it's one of the stronger openings we have. Also I would say I would get only 2 in around 1.5-2k points. That way you use death from the skies and if they have no flyers your reserves get the +2 and auto come in turn 2, as well as get bonus to the front skips attacks on ground targets.

The only reason I could see to have 3 is larger games or if you really really like the bonuses for one of the 3 ship formations.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Rule of cool, but I suppose a Relic Blade and Storm Shield can be fairly effective. You aren't missing out on any attacks due to Two-Handed. Plus, a Str 6 AP 3 group of attacks at initiative is nothing to turn your nose up at, especially when everyone else is striking at I1.

They can't have relic blades.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Alright so it's obvious as far as the punching goes Deathwatch does now lack in any way, however we encounter a problem in that with lower models counts our survivability is reduced.

So the great question we should discuss is how we counter this, I have only a few ideas, but am new to marines so others may have better ideas.

1. A storm shield or two should be mandatory in almost every squad, even ranged ones for that juicy 3++, still not going to increase the life expectancy by a great deal but stop ap2 ruining our day quite so much.

2. A lib in every squad finishing for invis/sanctic/some other ability. Problem is of course the random chance of it all, curse all primaris powers being combat powers.

Honesty I can think of much else and that's worries me. I realise this army is meant to punch hard an eliminate the enemies major threats before they can retaliate but if we fail at that we lose.

What else can we do people? Spam land raiders? Spam the Corvus? Are there any fortifications that might help? Is there an ally that might aid us?

---------------------

Also a question.....if we form one of the killteams, can we then attatch independent characters to it? Or does the kill team 'max 10 models' rule override that. I'm in the second camp but a mate of mine is in the former and I can see his point.



Cheers,

Qwerty

I would say that the Max10 rule applies, out of caution and drop pods.

As for survivability, a KT should not be an army, imo. You build one for a purpose, and then execute that purpose as soon as possible. Preferably by drop pod if possible. Failing drop pod shenanigans, I wouldn't shell out for a transport. The Corvus is a nice flyer, but it comes in on T2 at best, and will need a turn of maneuvering your team into position. Go for the footslog, but build the kill team to be able to deal with 24"-36" range engagements. Take librarians for general support purposes, or use Strategium Command to get a 6+FnP. Shields and/or terminator bodyguards are a likely necessity here.

A small 6 man (Vets and IC) kill team can hide in cover more easily than most things. Find a way to pick where the battles happen, and use them sparingly.

As for allies, this might be the one time IG allies are helpful. It's all well and good shooting at a 6-man T4 3+ unit, but it's going to be hard to concentrate when there's pieplates all up in your everything.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Chaosdad that's the same load out and problem I had, I ended up going another thunder hammer but with a plasma pistol as well. I might be swapping that out though, not sure. I will say it's a really really expensive you it points wise, I worked mine out to be around 500pts for 10 guys....

Meh_ glad someone liked the idea, I'm fairly convinced it's one of the stronger openings we have. Also I would say I would get only 2 in around 1.5-2k points. That way you use death from the skies and if they have no flyers your reserves get the +2 and auto come in turn 2, as well as get bonus to the front skips attacks on ground targets.

The only reason I could see to have 3 is larger games or if you really really like the bonuses for one of the 3 ship formations.

Yeah, too bad I dont have any drop pods... Someday someday.

Also, I think Ill try to magnetise some of the veterans to have boltgun/ccw and special weapon / melee options. Out of 3-5 kits there'll be a lot of spare shoulder pads and hands - it should be quite easy to have f.e. an ultramarine with frag cannon and shotgun options depending on what i want to run.

 ChaosDad wrote:
I've started building my vanguard vets, and the loadout I have so far for the five man squad is two guys with HTH and two guys with TH and SS (to help protect the two HTH guys...), and I'm not sure what my fifth guy should be....

I'm thinking either:

a- Dual pIstols, to soften the targets a bit, grav and plasma comes to mind...
b- Another shield, with either a claw, a hammer, or a pistol...
c- Something else that will be more useful...

I think dual hand flamers or infeno pistols would work quite well in squads of 2 or 3 hoping around the board harrassing units, if they get shot at your loosing 90pts instead of your big squad of vets who could be like 250pts, and its also easy to sneaky cap with them as they can easily hide out of line of sight so people could forget about them and then they can burst out from there safe spot and be a nuisence


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dual plasma pistols or grav pistols arent worth it for 30pts per model as a single grav/plasma gun has the same shots at that range for 15pts less just bar the ability to charge after (which wont do much anyway without power weapons) so might aswell go for the more exotic ranged weapons or go pure CC instead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
what are people thinking for a warlord outside of artemis? I would love to have the watch master but the lack of options (even a jump pack id love to have) is abit annoying for the deathwatch.... same with the chaplain :(

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Rule of cool, but I suppose a Relic Blade and Storm Shield can be fairly effective. You aren't missing out on any attacks due to Two-Handed. Plus, a Str 6 AP 3 group of attacks at initiative is nothing to turn your nose up at, especially when everyone else is striking at I1.

They can't have relic blades.

Crap. You are right. Well then...I dunno, a Power Maul and a Shield. Something to strike at initiative that packs a punch.

I'm taking a libby, for fluff reasons more than anything. He has a multitude pf psychic powers that he swaps around inconsistently as feth. Adding traits on him just adds to the amusement.

 Selym wrote:
I'm taking a libby, for fluff reasons more than anything. He has a multitude pf psychic powers that he swaps around inconsistently as feth. Adding traits on him just adds to the amusement.

i've debated 2 lvl 2 libbies to sit with my 2 Furor kill teams but i do like my chappies (dark angel player... ) but im stuck tryna design a cost effect squad for a chappie

Artemis and a shotgun squad. Use it to stasis bomb an enemy HQ more easily.

But what if your not using artemis the tournies around my area dont allow named characters or relics unfortunately


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and D is nerfed to str 10

I think artificer armour, thunder hammer (or a power fist), storm shield, jump pack, and a combi-weapon of your choice would be a pretty decent loadout for a captain.

 deffrekka wrote:
But what if your not using artemis the tournies around my area dont allow named characters or relics unfortunately


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and D is nerfed to str 10

Attach him to an allied unit maybe?

Whatever you do, take Bane Bolts of Eryxia. Not because they're any good, but because they are cool.

 Selym wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
But what if your not using artemis the tournies around my area dont allow named characters or relics unfortunately


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and D is nerfed to str 10

Attach him to an allied unit maybe?

Whatever you do, take Bane Bolts of Eryxia. Not because they're any good, but because they are cool.

I'd love to take bane bolts... but on a stalker bolter and make like a power armoured (helmeted) telion but we cant get a stalker on a HQ

Just wanted to add my two cents after I've reviewed the codex and planned out multiple armies.

I'm really feeling that they are a wildly aggressive army that is dependent on the alpha strike.

I think they do that really well and have a lot of different options. I plan on running mine with a hunters eye dev cent squad for an ignores cover option and a third dp.

What I do think they lack are good objective holding units. All of their choices are so combat ready and expensive you need them to be lifting their weight every single turn.

That means mobility is a must.

I think SM scouts compliment deathwatch perfectly and allow for the option of a null deploy strategy by planting a single squad out of los of the opponent and outflanking the rest as our dp's come in turn one.


Things I love from the codex:
Watch Master is a beast for his points
Frag Cannon, flexible powerful and dynamic
Special ammo is very effective, especially the ap3 one
Drop Pods are the perfect delivery system
The 4+ immobile relic
The Beacon Angelis, I expect this to be abused or nerfed
Vets
Including a single jinking skilled rider bike in the aquilla for split fire
The Mission Tactic rule

Things I would avoid or I think are less efficient than others give them credit:
Corvus Blackstar
Terminators, overcosted
Infernus Bolter although its badass
Xenophase blade
Heavy Thunder hammer is just win more
decking out a single unit with a ton of upgrades when they already have insanely good bolters
Black Spear Formation, auxillary choices blow and the benefits are marginal

The frag cannon is fantastic for its point as all of its modes are competitive. Imagine dropping two drop pods full of frags on a deathstar with invis and a 2+ save.

Say we keep it conservative and only hit 4 people with each frag.

8 frags x 4 hits per frag x assault 2 = 64 hits
Say we wound on 2's against toughness 4

thats 42.6 wounds of which 8.5 will be ap2

that's OVER 11 dead terminators (including invuls) WITH invisibility on.

Not including the bolter shots from said squads.

Did I mention that number is assuming our vets and their dps are obsec? If they are from a watch formation the number of dead targets spikes as we start rerolling wounds.

Quick question, more regarding Wall of Death than anything.

Since Frag Cannons/Shotguns have the Template rule, will both weapons be able to make use of Wall Of Death?

Also, to clarify, is it 1d3 wounds flat, or 1d3 per model with "Template" etc

Cephalobeard wrote:
Quick question, more regarding Wall of Death than anything.

Since Frag Cannons/Shotguns have the Template rule, will both weapons be able to make use of Wall Of Death?

Also, to clarify, is it 1d3 wounds flat, or 1d3 per model with "Template" etc

It's per template weapon. Also important to note that it's only one d3 even though the template is assault 2.

You'll be able to choose whatever mode you want to use like any other shooting attack.

Not too shabby, means Naked Shotgun squads will be able to defend themselves from an assault with 5d3 Auto wounds to the enemy.

Cephalobeard wrote:
Not too shabby, means Naked Shotgun squads will be able to defend themselves from an assault with 5d3 Auto wounds to the enemy.

Auto hits then roll to wound

Still really strong as you said

on average we're getting 6 hits with 4 frag cannons with wall of death

thats 5 wounds with one being ap2

2-3 dead marines with just the frag cannons!

 Selym wrote:


As for survivability, a KT should not be an army, imo. You build one for a purpose, and then execute that purpose as soon as possible. Preferably by drop pod if possible.

This is my take on them. I have a Space Marine army: Black Templars.

What can I do with a handful of Death Watch units that my Templars can't. That's what I'm looking to do with this book, not make 100 new death watch dudes.

(Although, truth be told, I know I will!)

Hmm... call me stupid, but I don't get how to use a killteam - which are supposed to stay a coherent unit - where there are footsloggers, bikes and jump infantry... My initial analysis and thoughts is that it can be used to extend the reach of a squad as it changes direction of faces different foes, since the faster troops can move from the back to the front, for instance...

What is it that I'm not getting?

I'm quite tempted to make my army a CAD, where the vanguards and the bikes are free to roam the table without worrying and foot traffic, and where the footies can be delivered by drop pod as nature intended...

 ChaosDad wrote:
Hmm... call me stupid, but I don't get how to use a killteam - which are supposed to stay a coherent unit - where there are footsloggers, bikes and jump infantry... My initial analysis and thoughts is that it can be used to extend the reach of a squad as it changes direction of faces different foes, since the faster troops can move from the back to the front, for instance...

What is it that I'm not getting?

I'm quite tempted to make my army a CAD, where the vanguards and the bikes are free to roam the table without worrying and foot traffic, and where the footies can be delivered by drop pod as nature intended...

Benefit from specials rules that each of the 1 man units brings to the table such as fearless or split fire, additional specialized combat roles like the vangaurd get upgrades for slightly cheaper since you are not paying as many points for them for shooting benefits

However while I am thinking about it I think themtically allied space marines with LSS and scouts would be baller for objective sitting. I think deathwatch get so much from their formation as well as cost too much to be reliable objective sitters.

That being said I am planning to bring an IG allied detachment at this time. 50 man conscript squad, 40-50 man platoon, couple cheap special weapon squads(Objective sitting) and a Wyvern or two. Give one of them the 4+ Invul relic while all of the deathwatch are 100% dedicated to offense. in a 50 man conscript squad with a 4+ invul and potentially a priest they could hold up a knight or two for the entire game while also tanking a decent number of shots. It brings the board presence and the bodies that deathwatch are lacking.

All of my builds are assuming things like ITC rules as well as GW FAQS

I'm going to grab an allied force for my Marines. An Aquila Kill team running 4 Frag Cannons. Might mount up in a Corvus Blackstar or Drop Pod.

Adding Terminator or Librarians seem the best option for Kill-Teams. Vanguards and Bikes seem like they would waste the extra movement. I think I might add a Cyclone Terminators to the squad for the additional AP3.

I think I'll be grabbing a Librarian or Chaplain for leading my Kill-Team. I would have run a Relic Blade and Storm shield for my Watch-Captain, but apparently that can't be done. The Watch Master is nice, but limited in what he can take. The general lack of Eternal Warrior access also hurts this Codex selection. My vanilla Marines run beatsticks better with Captain Lysander or Chapter Master on bike with Shield Eternal.

Now the only real hard part is getting extra Frag Cannons as Grytt is hard to find on ebay and Frag cannon bits will probably be in great demand.

Gree wrote:
I'm going to grab an allied force for my Marines. An Aquila Kill team running 4 Frag Cannons. Might mount up in a Corvus Blackstar or Drop Pod.

Adding Terminator or Librarians seem the best option for Kill-Teams. Vanguards and Bikes seem like they would waste the extra movement. I think I might ass a Cyclone Terminators to the squad for the additional AP3.

I think I'll be grabbing a Librarian or Chaplain for leading my Kill-Team. I would have run a Relic Blade and Storm shield for my Watch-Captain, but apparently that can't be done. The Watch Master is nice, but limited in what he can take. The general lack of Eternal Warrior access also hurts this Codex selection. My vanilla Marines run beatsticks better with Captain Lysander or Chapter Master on bike with Shield Eternal.

Now the only real hard part is getting extra Frag Cannons as Grytt is hard to find on ebay and Frag cannon bits will probably be in great demand.

At that point, you might as well just run a Black Spear Strike Force. You have the Watch Commander(Watch Captain), Core(Aquila Kill Team), and Auxiliary(Corvus Blackstar). Might as well get some additional benefits over the Allied Detachment.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Gree wrote:
I'm going to grab an allied force for my Marines. An Aquila Kill team running 4 Frag Cannons. Might mount up in a Corvus Blackstar or Drop Pod.

Adding Terminator or Librarians seem the best option for Kill-Teams. Vanguards and Bikes seem like they would waste the extra movement. I think I might ass a Cyclone Terminators to the squad for the additional AP3.

I think I'll be grabbing a Librarian or Chaplain for leading my Kill-Team. I would have run a Relic Blade and Storm shield for my Watch-Captain, but apparently that can't be done. The Watch Master is nice, but limited in what he can take. The general lack of Eternal Warrior access also hurts this Codex selection. My vanilla Marines run beatsticks better with Captain Lysander or Chapter Master on bike with Shield Eternal.

Now the only real hard part is getting extra Frag Cannons as Grytt is hard to find on ebay and Frag cannon bits will probably be in great demand.

At that point, you might as well just run a Black Spear Strike Force. You have the Watch Commander(Watch Captain), Core(Aquila Kill Team), and Auxiliary(Corvus Blackstar). Might as well get some additional benefits over the Allied Detachment.

I probably should have specified that I was running a Black Spear force, considering how easy it is to put in. I mean ''Allied'' more as a secondary force to my main Space Marine army.

Although at first I'll probably run an Aquila Kill Team by itself at least at first until I can finish buying the Blackstar.

 Aijec wrote:
Just wanted to add my two cents after I've reviewed the codex and planned out multiple armies.

I'm really feeling that they are a wildly aggressive army that is dependent on the alpha strike.

I think they do that really well and have a lot of different options. I plan on running mine with a hunters eye dev cent squad for an ignores cover option and a third dp.

What I do think they lack are good objective holding units. All of their choices are so combat ready and expensive you need them to be lifting their weight every single turn.

That means mobility is a must.

I think SM scouts compliment deathwatch perfectly and allow for the option of a null deploy strategy by planting a single squad out of los of the opponent and outflanking the rest as our dp's come in turn one.


Things I love from the codex:
Watch Master is a beast for his points
Frag Cannon, flexible powerful and dynamic
Special ammo is very effective, especially the ap3 one
Drop Pods are the perfect delivery system
The 4+ immobile relic
The Beacon Angelis, I expect this to be abused or nerfed
Vets
Including a single jinking skilled rider bike in the aquilla for split fire
The Mission Tactic rule

Things I would avoid or I think are less efficient than others give them credit:
Corvus Blackstar
Terminators, overcosted
Infernus Bolter although its badass
Xenophase blade
Heavy Thunder hammer is just win more
decking out a single unit with a ton of upgrades when they already have insanely good bolters
Black Spear Formation, auxillary choices blow and the benefits are marginal

The frag cannon is fantastic for its point as all of its modes are competitive. Imagine dropping two drop pods full of frags on a deathstar with invis and a 2+ save.

Say we keep it conservative and only hit 4 people with each frag.

8 frags x 4 hits per frag x assault 2 = 64 hits
Say we wound on 2's against toughness 4

thats 42.6 wounds of which 8.5 will be ap2

that's OVER 11 dead terminators (including invuls) WITH invisibility on.

Not including the bolter shots from said squads.

Did I mention that number is assuming our vets and their dps are obsec? If they are from a watch formation the number of dead targets spikes as we start rerolling wounds.

So you are using ITC? Cause most of us don't get to hit invisible units with templates...

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Just wanted to add my two cents after I've reviewed the codex and planned out multiple armies.

I'm really feeling that they are a wildly aggressive army that is dependent on the alpha strike.

I think they do that really well and have a lot of different options. I plan on running mine with a hunters eye dev cent squad for an ignores cover option and a third dp.

What I do think they lack are good objective holding units. All of their choices are so combat ready and expensive you need them to be lifting their weight every single turn.

That means mobility is a must.

I think SM scouts compliment deathwatch perfectly and allow for the option of a null deploy strategy by planting a single squad out of los of the opponent and outflanking the rest as our dp's come in turn one.


Things I love from the codex:
Watch Master is a beast for his points
Frag Cannon, flexible powerful and dynamic
Special ammo is very effective, especially the ap3 one
Drop Pods are the perfect delivery system
The 4+ immobile relic
The Beacon Angelis, I expect this to be abused or nerfed
Vets
Including a single jinking skilled rider bike in the aquilla for split fire
The Mission Tactic rule

Things I would avoid or I think are less efficient than others give them credit:
Corvus Blackstar
Terminators, overcosted
Infernus Bolter although its badass
Xenophase blade
Heavy Thunder hammer is just win more
decking out a single unit with a ton of upgrades when they already have insanely good bolters
Black Spear Formation, auxillary choices blow and the benefits are marginal

The frag cannon is fantastic for its point as all of its modes are competitive. Imagine dropping two drop pods full of frags on a deathstar with invis and a 2+ save.

Say we keep it conservative and only hit 4 people with each frag.

8 frags x 4 hits per frag x assault 2 = 64 hits
Say we wound on 2's against toughness 4

thats 42.6 wounds of which 8.5 will be ap2

that's OVER 11 dead terminators (including invuls) WITH invisibility on.

Not including the bolter shots from said squads.

Did I mention that number is assuming our vets and their dps are obsec? If they are from a watch formation the number of dead targets spikes as we start rerolling wounds.

So you are using ITC? Cause most of us don't get to hit invisible units with templates...

If you aren't using the competitive standard format then who cares about balance? ya i'm referring to the itc.

I would suggest the majority of tournaments run with comped rules, probably a majority of them use the ITC. tough to tell.

Only one or two use ITC around here, it's arbitrary rules changes and knee jerk refs to a few factions killed a lot of good will, as far as I can tell.

It'll be interesting to see how the ITC reacts when the FAQ goes live, rather than just draft form.

Edit: doesn't adepticon and Nova use their own house rules, too, rather than ITC? It's not like ITC is standard across everywhere, so assuming it is is... Silly.

Is anyone making the units from the Death Masque campaign book?

At first I didn't think much of them. Squad Crull didn't seem too fancy mainly sporting boltguns, and Watch Sergeant Crull randomly has the hatred special rule. Squad Galatael seemed alright with 2 heavy thunder hammers, but again only Watch Sergeant Galatael has a random special rule (precision strikes). So at first I really wasn't sure about them, but the formation is where it all comes together, and it's not bad!

Each character has their own special rule, Artemis has 6+ FNP. Crull has Hatred, and Galatael has Precision Strikes. All of these become a 6" buff in the formation.
- Artemis grants Squad Crull FNP within 6" (and he's likely to join them anyway).
- Crull grants his whole squad Hatred (Artemis too), and anyone else within 6" (which isn't bad considering they get a fair amount of attacks being veterans and all).
- Galatael grants his whole squad Precision Strikes, and anyone else within 6" (which again isn't bad considering there's a couple of heavy thunder hammers in there!).

Not only that, everyone get's to re-roll to wound and armour penetration rolls of 1. Everyone. All the time.

So what do you guys think?

I'll make Nihilus and Artemis (durr...). Nihilus can just be weapon swapped for any of the other weapon options if I want. The other squads are actually not that terrible, but not at all what I am looking for when it comes to my Deathwatch.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I'll make Nihilus and Artemis (durr...). Nihilus can just be weapon swapped for any of the other weapon options if I want. The other squads are actually not that terrible, but not at all what I am looking for when it comes to my Deathwatch.

Well that's a given, which is why I didn't mention them..

I think most people will overlook the other two units, but the formation can always be deployed as a single Kill Team and add bodies to a Black Spear Strike Force. I'm also looking at the models from an individual point of view, as I'll mix and match stuff with the Overkill set if I want to make other Kill Teams. Just curious to see what people thought about them.

I'm not making them either. I plan to sell the Harlies (too much effort to make imo), and the DW units are being fitted for fluff and kitbashed. I'm not even making Vanguard with their sprue.

Artemis and Nihilus are good though; the former for a glory-hogging idea-stealing donkey-cave from the Galactic Partridges, and the latter because he's a Dreadnought with benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not making them either. I plan to sell the Harlies (too much effort to make imo), and the DW units are being fitted for fluff and kitbashed. I'm not even making Vanguard with their sprue.

Artemis and Nihilus are good though; the former for a glory-hogging idea-stealing donkey-cave from the Galactic Partridges, and the latter because he's a Dreadnought with benefits.

The Vanguard are quite tricky, and I really wasn't sure about making them either. It seems like you would never really take a unit of 5 on their own, and you'd probably only use a few in an Kill Team. Maybe it would be worth kitting some out individually to add to Kill Teams as and when you need them?

It's a shame the blackshield can't get any upgrades, seems like a waste considering the only reason to take it is for the better CC ability. (assuming it goes the way of command squad apoths)

He can get upgrades, just not the xenophase, heavy thunder hammer or heavy weapons.

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's a shame the blackshield can't get any upgrades, seems like a waste considering the only reason to take it is for the better CC ability. (assuming it goes the way of command squad apoths)

Can the Blackshield definitely not have any upgrades? My codex is at home so I can't check, but I don't remember seeing it listed with certain wargear, so surely it can take anything the other squad members can? He's still a veteran and part of the veteran squad after all. I'd have thought he'd have a Boltgun by default after being upgraded, and you then replace it. Like I said, I can't check it right now, but from what I can remember the wording would suggest you can change his wargear.

Melee, Ranged and Special weapons are available to all models.

He is not a veteran so cannot take HTH or heavy weapons

4x frag marines, 1x Black Shield with power weapon, 1x drop pod.

Attach a Terminator pr libby or w/e.

Yay meta

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's a shame the blackshield can't get any upgrades, seems like a waste considering the only reason to take it is for the better CC ability. (assuming it goes the way of command squad apoths)

The Blackshield can take Melee, Ranged, or Special weapons as well as a Storm Shield as those are available to any model. I wish he could take a Xenophase Blade, though.

i did 4 frag cannons, one watch sergeant with an auspex, tartaros (for looks) termie with a cyclone missile launcher in a pod as my Aquila kill team.

I need an expendable team to back up artemis...

If he uses the Strategium Command Team in a drop pod, hpw should I kit them out? I plan to stasis bomb a tank or HQ, so I need to be able to charge on T2, but I also need the marines to be somewhat cheap.

so far ive built 2 aquila frag squads using that ^ load out, 2 furor stalker teams, a 5 man shotty and bolter squad, artemis, the dark angel DW model as a libby, an ASS and heavy flamer ven dread and a 5 man HTH vanguard squad.

Getting 2 more boxes of vets when there released to make a 10 man storm shield squad for arty or a chappie to go in either a corvus or just deep strike by themselves, just stumped on melee weapons for them atm, thinking half power lances half power axes, maybe a fist on the watch sergeant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
I need an expendable team to back up artemis...

If he uses the Strategium Command Team in a drop pod, hpw should I kit them out? I plan to stasis bomb a tank or HQ, so I need to be able to charge on T2, but I also need the marines to be somewhat cheap.

you'd want a chappie in that squad to lower the chance of him giving the D to himself only a 25% of hitting himself then i believe? as for a squad id probs get a strat kill team with a chappie for furious charge then attach arty to it so he has a powerful squad, if given all power lances, thats 15 rerolling to hit str 6 ap 3 attacks rerolling 1's to wound

What is ASS?

my term for assault cannon

EDIT: I hatr my phone

 Selym wrote:
EDIT: I hatr my phone

which part are you saying noice to


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooog idea Selym

What about for arty you use a hand flamer and CCW squad to go with him with a chappie (or libbie fishing for rending) that way you have a squad thats relatively cheap but is pumping out 20-40 attacks at str 5 on the charge (depending on squad size) that gets all the rerolls under the sun whilst arty drops the D on any thing hard or important? just my quick thoughts. its about 400pts min with the 2 characters and the 5 man CCW and Hand flamer squad.

Interesting idea...

I was saying noice to the previous idea, too.

Also, isn't the short version of assault cannon ASC?

my gaming group has always called them ASS for short maybe because they are ass in terms of other weapon choices... wish the dreads had more weapon options like C:SM

Speaking of assault cannons, DW can take a unit of 5 termies, each with an assault cannon. There has to be a use for that.

its just the expense of the unit.... ;-;

like yea 20 str 6 ap 4 rending shots... but... termies.. :( if we could take them as heavy weapons for vets thatd be so coooo, imagine it with some type of special ammo too <3 but so far for me, a unit of cyclones just beats it *shudders from past experiences fighting my mates iron warriors tyrant siege termies*

I used an ASS termie with chainfist in another KT, so at least I can say that all my DW terminators have an ASC

see your using ASS now!

*you're - I get a free spell correction because of that!

Yea, I was making sure to avoid confusion

if we could have a unit of 5 plasma cannon termies id be like


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
*you're - I get a free spell correction because of that!

Yea, I was making sure to avoid confusion

Bu.. Bu.. Bully

Oh. My. God.

Plasma Termies.

With Storm Shields, ofc.

im allowed to do spelling mistakes as im an ork at heart... just a sneaky kommando who has infiltrated the DW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and dont forget cyclone missiles to.. would be like 85-90pts per termie though..

While I'm thinking about it, has anyone built a DW team for Kill Team matches?

>150 pts
>200 pts
>250 pts
>300 pts

So thinking of running this as an Aquila Kill-Team.

10 Man-Kill Team
Librarian
Level Two
Tome of Ectolades
Sergeant with Combi-Plasma
2 Marines with Combi-Plasma
2 with Bolter
4 with Frag Cannon
Drop Pod

Thoughts? I'm trying to put out a bunch of AP2 with re-rolls. Thinking of swapping those 2 bolter marines for a Cyclone Terminator.

You can have a plasma gun and bolter per guy (no faq yet) for 5pts more, and give the serg a auspex for minus 1 cover

Alright so today I finally had a match with my Deathwatch and thought I'd give a mini battle report (As this is a tactics thread not a battle report thread) to comment on what worked and didnt.

I will say before I start this I have a habit of rolling VERY well, a single SH tanking 16 ap3 hits good.....

__________________________

So I was versing KDK at 850 points.

My list, used the models from Death Masque and a drop pod;

Strategium Command Team
5 vets with power swords, bolters, a frag cannon, black shield with power swords, watch sergeant with xeno blade.
5 vanguard vets, 2 HTH, 2 TH/SH, 1 TH/Plasma pistol
Artemis
Special Dreadnaught Nihilis
Drop pod

His list;
Chaos lord with bloodthirster summoning axe
2x 10 Bloodletters
2x 10 cultists
hellbrute (in formation with cultists for super cover and fearless cultists)
Soulgrinder
Maulerfiend

His turn 1 he failed to kill anything with phlem bombard

Turn 1 I DP'd Nihilus to one side to distract the mauler and hellbrute, moving the killteam up cover and running them. Killed 2 cultists with the plasma cannon.....Not particularly interesting.

His turn 2 his soulgrinder munched the hell out of nihilus and only took 1 hull point and an immobilise in return. One Bloodletter squad DP'd behind my killteam and ran to within and inch.

My turn 2 Saw me charge his soungrinder, 2 hits connected, 1 killed the frag cannon and the other bounced of a storm shield (Just bad placement on my part with the frag cannon) and I took it apart with the thunderhammers.

His turn 3 saw the bloodletters fail to charge, his other squad DP in behind me again and his maulerfiend charge to kill 1 normal vet, I killed the maulerfiend in return.

Turn 4 saw him charge with both b.letter squads, the hellbrute, both cultists and chaos lord. Chaos lord and artemis both took 1 wound of each other. Bloodletters did SFA and killed nothing. Cultists killed 1 SH, the hellbrute killed another normal. I killed both cultist squads, the hellbrute and 18 of the 20 letters. He then summoned a Hellcannon.

My turn 4 saw me finish off the 2 letters, artemis stasis bombed the lord to death which summon a B.Thirster in my midst.

Turn 5 saw him kill artemis with his B.thirster and then that thirster get insta deathed by HTH's.

--------------

Long story short we went for 2 more turns because it was so much fun and my team defied the odds every damn time and versed waves and waves of enemies.

Thematically it's every I wanted from the Deathwatch. A small squad fighting IMPOSSIBLE odds and waves of xenos and daemons to come out victorious.

Rules wise;

HTH are amazing
The Black Shield is amazing
Dreadnaughts are still meh
Artemis is honestly kind of meh
The Clavis is amazing (honestly probably won me the game)
The amount of power weapons in the squad is super expensive
The frag cannon died before firing so cant comment yet
Mission tactics and killteam bonus were completely essential

Over all I honestly feel this is a great start. This army has a hectically strong punching power against what was a VERY hard army. That much armour at such low points concerned me in a huge way.

I wouldn't use a killteam this expensive under 1000 points again. Would just use ranged, frag cannon based, squads. Can't wait to get everything I need for my 1500 list, it should be hectic.

Cheers,

Qwerty

Yeah, my bad, he can take anything that's any model, just nothing that's veteran only

I don't think Artemis has a Clavis. That seems to be watch master only.

Yeah it is.

Ah that's my bad, I swapped the TH/PP at the last minute for a chaplain with the osseus key, not a clavis. My bad.

Does Nihilis do anything special or is he just a Dread with a Plasma Cannon?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Does Nihilis do anything special or is he just a Dread with a Plasma Cannon?

6++ invun and 5++ vs witchfire powers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Ah that's my bad, I swapped the TH/PP at the last minute for a chaplain with the osseus key, not a clavis. My bad.

I dont believe a chappie can get the osseus key, its for watch masters only?

 deffrekka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Does Nihilis do anything special or is he just a Dread with a Plasma Cannon?

6++ invun and 5++ vs witchfire powers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Ah that's my bad, I swapped the TH/PP at the last minute for a chaplain with the osseus key, not a clavis. My bad.

I dont believe a chappie can get the osseus key, its for watch masters only?

Because it's a clavis lol. Just the relic clavis.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Does Nihilis do anything special or is he just a Dread with a Plasma Cannon?

6++ invun and 5++ vs witchfire powers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Ah that's my bad, I swapped the TH/PP at the last minute for a chaplain with the osseus key, not a clavis. My bad.

I dont believe a chappie can get the osseus key, its for watch masters only?

Because it's a clavis lol. Just the relic clavis.

If the watch master had more options like a jump pack or bike id take him but because hes so naff in options artemis and libbies out shine him

I agree. I feel like I'm almost always going to be taking librarians with this army.

 deffrekka wrote:
You can have a plasma gun and bolter per guy (no faq yet) for 5pts more, and give the serg a auspex for minus 1 cover

I forgot about the Auspex bit. Though I think I might give that to the Librarian.

Yeah, I head about that before with the Boltergun/shotgun combo. I was uncertain how valid that was since didn't the shotgun/boltgun combo get FAQ'ed on the facebook page? It's a good idea but I'm uncertain about doing it if I might have to chop off some arms later on.

Gree wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
You can have a plasma gun and bolter per guy (no faq yet) for 5pts more, and give the serg a auspex for minus 1 cover

I forgot about the Auspex bit. Though I think I might give that to the Librarian.

Yeah, I head about that before with the Boltergun/shotgun combo. I was uncertain how valid that was since didn't the shotgun/boltgun combo get FAQ'ed on the facebook page? It's a good idea but I'm uncertain about doing it if I might have to chop off some arms later on.

Semi-FAQd
Wharhammer TV said you had to replace the bolter to get the shotgun, - we already knew this.
They didnt address that you could aslo replace the ccw with a shotgun. They then said theyd pass it onto the rules team. So we got an answer from someone at GW, just not an official rules source at GW

I received an IM from the Warhammer 40,000 page today after making a similar inquiry. They said they would pass it to the rules team but also no, black shields cannot take wargear listed for "veterans" like the HTH, and since the veteran box isn't designed to let you model 2 2-handed ranged weapons that it will likely be FAQ'd no to that as well. Not official but honestly I think they're right.

What happened to conversions? Time was that geedubs was fine to let you just slap a spare bolter on the back of a marine and call it a maglocked extra weapon.

Model limitations my arse.

But mine look so good with bolter and FW shotties ;-; i wont be removing mine haha.. would just say there the CC weapon

Between this and the oddities of the Watch-Captain's weapon selection (Termie Captains can't take Storm Shields?) I do think the wargear part of this Codex could have used more spit and polish.

There might be no official FAQ on the Bolter/Special Weapon issue, but I have a gut feeling that's going to be FAQ'ed to be in line with the other Marine books.

Vets can also take a stalker pattern boltgun and a standard boltgun due to the same goof. Anyone tried multiple stalker bolters in a kill team or have they already been overlooked in favor of the glorious frag cannon?

zend wrote:
Vets can also take a stalker pattern boltgun and a standard boltgun due to the same goof. Anyone tried multiple stalker bolters in a kill team or have they already been overlooked in favor of the glorious frag cannon?

I have tried 2 furor kill teams with 5 stalkers and a cyclone termie, works well

Cool, I was thinking of using a similar Furor kill team since the mandatory cannon and terminator give the unit extra oomph and better overwatch capabilities.

Right now its looking like:

5 vets w/ stalkers
Vet w/ frag cannon
Termie w/ heavy flamer and cyclone

Park on an objective or on a building near one, fire away at troops with stalkers + cyclone + frag cannon, and possibly deter charges against them with the overwatch from the frag template and heavy flamer.

Think there would be any benefit to taking standard boltguns on top of the stalkers? Really all I could see them being useful for is the ability to fire on the move if I need to kite around a really killy CC unit.

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Alright so today I finally had a match with my Deathwatch and thought I'd give a mini battle report (As this is a tactics thread not a battle report thread) to comment on what worked and didnt.

...

Thanks for the battle report! Glad to hear the HTH did some work. I cant wait to try out my Deathwatch in 3 months :O

zend wrote:
Cool, I was thinking of using a similar Furor kill team since the mandatory cannon and terminator give the unit extra oomph and better overwatch capabilities.

Right now its looking like:

5 vets w/ stalkers
Vet w/ frag cannon
Termie w/ heavy flamer and cyclone

Park on an objective or on a building near one, fire away at troops with stalkers + cyclone + frag cannon, and possibly deter charges against them with the overwatch from the frag template and heavy flamer.

Think there would be any benefit to taking standard boltguns on top of the stalkers? Really all I could see them being useful for is the ability to fire on the move if I need to kite around a really killy CC unit.

I believe the datasheet for terminators says they may pick one from the heavy flamer, cyclone, or assault cannon. So heavy flamer/cyclone is no-go. Since they're going to be a backfield sniper unit I'd say leave the terminator in with the cyclone and maybe add a couple of missile launcher vets to the team.

I guess I don't see much of a need for the Furor Kill Team. Troops tend to be softer targets, they tend to go down to conventional weaponry.

Vs white scar bikers and jet bikes its good

Anybody else notice that the Malleus Kill Team has a minimum size of 2 models?

 Selym wrote:
Anybody else notice that the Malleus Kill Team has a minimum size of 2 models?

it's vets + termeis, so 6 models.

*re-reads the page*

I could have sworn it said Vanguard Vet + Terminator...

The feth have I been smoking today?

 deffrekka wrote:
Vs white scar bikers and jet bikes its good

That is certainly a good point. Chuck the Ignores Cover ammo down field to maximize the amount of wounds. Paired with a Stalker Boltgun, the sniper shots getting AP2 will take down quite a few enemies.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Vs white scar bikers and jet bikes its good

That is certainly a good point. Chuck the Ignores Cover ammo down field to maximize the amount of wounds. Paired with a Stalker Boltgun, the sniper shots getting AP2 will take down quite a few enemies.

See someone gets my ideas

Are we allowed to post our pictures of our deathwatch and there fluff on this thread? Also if anyone wants the chapter shoulder pads drop me a PM, mine are all blackshields so no logos, got 5 sets of the vet kits


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and inferbus heavy bolters, got 10 of them

Warhammer TV Construction video specifically shows a Black Shield with a HTH.

I have no idea what GW is doing.

FORGING THE NARRATIVE DAMNIT

Deffrekka I'm not exactly sure on the rules but I'm sure if you also included a few lines on how you intend to use your units it would be fine.

Photo, fluff and use/purpose in your army, I could even maybe showcase it in the first post if it's got enough useful insight

I'm trying to decide how to outfit a Furor KT.

Everyone seems to be favoring the DW Frag Cannon, but I'm thinking for clearing mass troops, that the Infernus HB is the better tool for the job. Right now I'm planning on a 5 man Vet squad with 4 Infernus HBs, 1 DW shotgun and a support Termi with Hvy Flamer (maybe Assault Cannon) in a Drop Pod.

So my question is, when is the Infernus HB the better choice over the DW Frag Cannon?

DoctorEvil wrote:
I'm trying to decide how to outfit a Furor KT.

Everyone seems to be favoring the DW Frag Cannon, but I'm thinking for clearing mass troops, that the Infernus HB is the better tool for the job. Right now I'm planning on a 5 man Vet squad with 4 Infernus HBs, 1 DW shotgun and a support Termi with Hvy Flamer (maybe Assault Cannon) in a Drop Pod.

So my question is, when is the Infernus HB the better choice over the DW Frag Cannon?

For anything more than 24" away. If you need to hold a location and stop the horde at the same time, that's a good time to take the IHB. If you're about to be in assaulted by troops, the IHB has Ap4 on its template, as opposed to Ap- on the Frag Cannon - so it's better at eliminating light-medium infantry. And it saves 5ppm. Always a plus when extra firepower is needed.

 Selym wrote:

DoctorEvil wrote:
I'm trying to decide how to outfit a Furor KT.

Everyone seems to be favoring the DW Frag Cannon, but I'm thinking for clearing mass troops, that the Infernus HB is the better tool for the job. Right now I'm planning on a 5 man Vet squad with 4 Infernus HBs, 1 DW shotgun and a support Termi with Hvy Flamer (maybe Assault Cannon) in a Drop Pod.

So my question is, when is the Infernus HB the better choice over the DW Frag Cannon?

For anything more than 24" away. If you need to hold a location and stop the horde at the same time, that's a good time to take the IHB. If you're about to be in assaulted by troops, the IHB has Ap4 on its template, as opposed to Ap- on the Frag Cannon - so it's better at eliminating light-medium infantry. And it saves 5ppm. Always a plus when extra firepower is needed.

However the frag cannon gets 2 D3 for overwatch, S6, and rending in exchange for that AP4

The frag cannon is just more useful, its a MEQ killer at 24", horde killer at 8.5", TEQ killer at 12", can tackle vehicles above av 12 and GMC above T8. And then the flamer ID's T3 models aswell so its all round more better, the IFB just has longer range, which if your always moving doesnt really matter..?

My close combat squad so far, got another 4 to build with 2 power lances and 2 HTH. Also building up a DW chappie to go with squad including a Libby and that captain all riding in a Corvus

Hi guys,

i've got myself the Dead Masque boxed set and i'd like to build some models today

What would be a good load out for the 5 Deathwatch veterans?

Ideal these will be non close combat marines.

Cheers

 stokecity_m wrote:
Hi guys,

i've got myself the Dead Masque boxed set and i'd like to build some models today

What would be a good load out for the 5 Deathwatch veterans?

Ideal these will be non close combat marines.

Cheers

It depends on your meta, what do you want them to do? Are they an ally?

 deffrekka wrote:

 stokecity_m wrote:
Hi guys,

i've got myself the Dead Masque boxed set and i'd like to build some models today

What would be a good load out for the 5 Deathwatch veterans?

Ideal these will be non close combat marines.

Cheers

It depends on your meta, what do you want them to do? Are they an ally?

They'll be the start of a larger deathwatch army.

You could do them all as stalker bolters, will require some conversions as theres only 1 per box (thats always reloading).

Or a full special/heavy weapon squad.

Or or you build a CC squad for artemis

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Selym wrote:

DoctorEvil wrote:
I'm trying to decide how to outfit a Furor KT.

Everyone seems to be favoring the DW Frag Cannon, but I'm thinking for clearing mass troops, that the Infernus HB is the better tool for the job. Right now I'm planning on a 5 man Vet squad with 4 Infernus HBs, 1 DW shotgun and a support Termi with Hvy Flamer (maybe Assault Cannon) in a Drop Pod.

So my question is, when is the Infernus HB the better choice over the DW Frag Cannon?

For anything more than 24" away. If you need to hold a location and stop the horde at the same time, that's a good time to take the IHB. If you're about to be in assaulted by troops, the IHB has Ap4 on its template, as opposed to Ap- on the Frag Cannon - so it's better at eliminating light-medium infantry. And it saves 5ppm. Always a plus when extra firepower is needed.

However the frag cannon gets 2 D3 for overwatch, S6, and rending in exchange for that AP4

Didn't something say that Assault 2 templates only fire 1d3 on overwatch?

 Selym wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Selym wrote:

DoctorEvil wrote:
I'm trying to decide how to outfit a Furor KT.

Everyone seems to be favoring the DW Frag Cannon, but I'm thinking for clearing mass troops, that the Infernus HB is the better tool for the job. Right now I'm planning on a 5 man Vet squad with 4 Infernus HBs, 1 DW shotgun and a support Termi with Hvy Flamer (maybe Assault Cannon) in a Drop Pod.

So my question is, when is the Infernus HB the better choice over the DW Frag Cannon?

For anything more than 24" away. If you need to hold a location and stop the horde at the same time, that's a good time to take the IHB. If you're about to be in assaulted by troops, the IHB has Ap4 on its template, as opposed to Ap- on the Frag Cannon - so it's better at eliminating light-medium infantry. And it saves 5ppm. Always a plus when extra firepower is needed.

However the frag cannon gets 2 D3 for overwatch, S6, and rending in exchange for that AP4

Didn't something say that Assault 2 templates only fire 1d3 on overwatch?

Actually, that's a good question, I don't think so, but there also aren't very many multishot flamers. Might be a good question for an FAQ, but I also don't have my rulebook offhand to check the wording for wall of death. edit: BA was FAQ'd to 1D3, still be interesting to see if they're consistent and rule DW are 1D3 also.

The blood angel one was faq'd to only 1d3 wasnt it?

I'm thinking two detachments, CAD and the Strategium Command team
CAD

HQ
Librarian 70

Troops
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110

Elites
5x Vanguard Veterans (Melee) 175
5x Bikers+1Power Sword 155

Strategium Command Team
Librarian 70
Furor Kill Team
Librarian 70
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
2x Terminators (Heavy Flamers+Cyclone Missile Launchers) 150
2x Terminators (TH/SS) 100

Total 1120

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm thinking two detachments, CAD and the Strategium Command team
CAD

HQ
Librarian 70

Troops
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110

Elites
5x Vanguard Veterans (Melee) 175
5x Bikers+1Power Sword 155

Strategium Command Team
Librarian 70
Furor Kill Team
Librarian 70
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
2x Terminators (Heavy Flamers+Cyclone Missile Launchers) 150
2x Terminators (TH/SS) 100

Total 1120

Why not break down the vanguard and bikers into smaller squads? Negates overkill and means you have more units to jump around capping and being an annoyance and also overwatch wont then kill the whole squad (like say you charge D scythes)

 deffrekka wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm thinking two detachments, CAD and the Strategium Command team
CAD

HQ
Librarian 70

Troops
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110

Elites
5x Vanguard Veterans (Melee) 175
5x Bikers+1Power Sword 155

Strategium Command Team
Librarian 70
Furor Kill Team
Librarian 70
5x Veterans (Shotguns) 110
2x Terminators (Heavy Flamers+Cyclone Missile Launchers) 150
2x Terminators (TH/SS) 100

Total 1120

Why not break down the vanguard and bikers into smaller squads? Negates overkill and means you have more units to jump around capping and being an annoyance and also overwatch wont then kill the whole squad (like say you charge D scythes)

It's a fair suggestion, although rather than breaking them down I'd probably just drop a few extra points into two squads of 2xBikes packing Storm Shields t5 and a 3++ saves will probably survive most overwatch efforts.

Can the bikers take storm shields?

I'd better double check that, Storm Shields are in the Melee list but I'm not sure if Bikers actually have access to that list.

Storm shields arent in the melee list for me in my codex only vets, vanguard and non termie armour cappie can get storm shields

Damn, you're right.
Too used to the Space Mutts Bike Guard.

Guess it's Jumpers with shields.

Yea looks like all the vets get the toys but everything else are just second thoughts, should be called codex vet squad

I am struggling with the appeal of the shotgun over the bolter.

So you can assault after you shoot so for combat builds or defensive counter charge builds

That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

What would be a good build for the vanguard deathwatch?

Double hand flamers i found are good


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In small 1-2 man teams jumping around being annoying and capping objectives, if someone shoots at them oh well you killed 1-2 dudes instead of my big squads, ignore them oh well there gonna cause more havoc

So I'm thinking of revising my earlier build by adding Storm Shields to act as ablative wounds for everyone else in the squad. Vets can take Storm Shields, so I was thinking of Bolter/Shield instead of Bolter/Shotgun or Bolter/Plasma Gun.
Expensive, but useful against the inevitable AP2 and AP3 that will be directed against it.

Aquila-Kill-Team
Librarian
Sarge with Combi-Plasma
4 with Combi-Plasma and Storm Shields
4 Marines with Frag Cannons

Probably go around in a Drop Pod or Corvus Blackstar. Thoughts?

Id take them in a pod otherwise waiting til turn 3 at best (unless your taking a landing pad)

Dont forget that watch sarg with an auspex

Yeah, almost forgot about that.

Aquila Kill-Team
Librarian/Level Two and Auspex
Watch-Sergeant/Combi-Plasma
4 Veterans with Combi-Plasma and Storm Shield
4 Frag Cannons
Drop Pod
523pts

Gave the auspex to the Libby. Probably try to roll on Biomancy for Endurance to go with the Shields. Might swap out two Marines for a Terminator with Cyclone.

I love that the sargs can get auspexs, just like playing omnis with my skits

So far im lovin the furor stalker kill team with 1 cyclone termie, 2 lots of Furor has done me well

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

Given that it's not a pistol, of course it is two handed. It is even modeled as two handed.
Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Despite it being RAW (and awesome) if a FAQ is released I think it will be disallowed as they didn't intend it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

He means you're effectively switch between the Shotgun and the Bolter. Currently no other bread and butter troops can keep their primary firearm when getting an alternative, which is a huge boon since it gives them even more options. If Selym implied that they might Errata this into "Replace bolter" then that's a good assumption, as most other cases like this is usually "replace" as well.

The "two handed" rule hasn't mattered (or even applied to) to ranged weapons for at least three editions now.

It's already replacing a bolter, its the CCW that's then being replaced by a bolter iirc

Scout sergeants can have 2 weapons, a sniper and combi

I can't see why they'd disallow it. For some reason they decided not to give Veterans Bolt Pistols and instead give them CCWs, which is utterly pointless from a rules point of view other than to make Deathwatch Veterans the only Marines unable to shoot and charge by default. At least allowing them to carry a Boltgun and a Shotgun gives them the flexibility of the firepower of the Bolter and the Assault weapon capability of the Shotgun.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

He means you're effectively switch between the Shotgun and the Bolter. Currently no other bread and butter troops can keep their primary firearm when getting an alternative, which is a huge boon since it gives them even more options. If Selym implied that they might Errata this into "Replace bolter" then that's a good assumption, as most other cases like this is usually "replace" as well.

The "two handed" rule hasn't mattered (or even applied to) to ranged weapons for at least three editions now.

Actually, Grey Hunters can carry three weapons and that hasn't been FAQ'd out.
They take close combat weapons, they're paying for them but they're also not swapping for them so if you cough up the 2ppm they're carrying Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat weapons, giving them an extra attack in close combat.
Swapping between a Shotgun and Bolter doesn't seem so wild when versatility seems to be Deathwatch's biggest strength

Ork nobs can have 2 shootas

I didn't know it came from juggling around weapons. Apologies.

However I did say bread and butter troops; characters have always been able to take a comical assortment of weapons, just that most people generally don't buy two ranged weapons for them.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

He means you're effectively switch between the Shotgun and the Bolter. Currently no other bread and butter troops can keep their primary firearm when getting an alternative, which is a huge boon since it gives them even more options. If Selym implied that they might Errata this into "Replace bolter" then that's a good assumption, as most other cases like this is usually "replace" as well.

The "two handed" rule hasn't mattered (or even applied to) to ranged weapons for at least three editions now.

Actually, Grey Hunters can carry three weapons and that hasn't been FAQ'd out.
They take close combat weapons, they're paying for them but they're also not swapping for them so if you cough up the 2ppm they're carrying Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat weapons, giving them an extra attack in close combat.
Swapping between a Shotgun and Bolter doesn't seem so wild when versatility seems to be Deathwatch's biggest strength

I said primary weapon, not sidearms or their butterknife.

Most people model that 'butterknife' as a Chainsword, as for the Wolves far more carry Bolt Pistols than Bolters in the fluff and they definitely see more use on the tabletop so I'd argue that the Bolter is not their 'primary' weapon, Bolt Pistol and Chainsword are.

Whatever floats your boat. I already got my point across.

Thoughts on drop pods for a deathwatch force?

They can be taken as dedicated transports for the veterans, and can carry any of the other footslogging infantry, and even the dreadnoughts, but not the vanguards and the bikes... (if my understanding of transport rules is correct...)

In the context of a kill team that has ten models, if one of them is a terminator, then a drop pod deployement for that killteam is out of the question, since there is no room in the pod for the whole killteam to be deployed together, right?

Or is there somewhere a rule that says that a squad can be deployed in several transports?

I have a feeling that at least my venerable dreadnought will be drop-podded in, but then I would need two more pods to fill to get to an 'optimal' three pods... If mixed kill teams can't fit in them, then are they simply worthless in a decurion-style force of killteams?

Am I missing something?

In squads that count as 11 models or more (iirc), they're ALMOST useless, they still count for the drop pod assault rule so you can take a bunch of termies/bikes/vanguard, get a drop pod, and have another 2 units/killteams come in first turn in their pods.

Ah, right, you mean get the pod as dedicated transports for each of the veteran squads, even those that are part of killteams that cannot embark in a pod, and if they are not the squad in the pod during the pod assault, is that it?

 ChaosDad wrote:
Ah, right, you mean get the pod as dedicated transports for each of the veteran squads, even those that are part of killteams that cannot embark in a pod, and if they are not the squad in the pod during the pod assault, is that it?

More or less. Even if you can't put the team in it, and are taking another 2 kill teams/dreads anyways, you can still buy them all DPs, then have the ones that are filled drop in while leaving the empty ones in reserves.

Oh, that is sneaky... I like it...

Basically I pay a 35 point tax to buy an extra empty pod that never needs to come in (unless I want to put a beacon and missile launcher in it....) so that the two drop pods that have something in it come together on the first turn...

Can't you buy one as FA?

 Selym wrote:
Can't you buy one as FA?

Only works if you run a CAD/allied detachment, if you run a black spear, then you don't have that option.

 Selym wrote:
Can't you buy one as FA?

Yes, but then I would have get out of the Black Spear Strike Force decurion chart, wouldn't I?

So far on my list I have three killteams, so by default three veterans squad who can each take a drop pod as dedicated transport...

Hold on, there is something I'm missing, here... I thought that squads couldn't begin the game in a transport that was the dedicated transport purchased for another squad...
(dammit, now I'm getting confused....)

Ok, let's say my list is this:

Captain
Killteam 1 with 5 vets, a chaplain, a librarian and a terminator, taking a drop pod 1 as DT
Killteam 2 with 5 vets, 3 vanguards and 2 terminators, taking a drop pod 2 as DT
Killteam 3 with 5 vets, 4 vanguard and a bike.
Venerable dreadnought, taking a drop pod 3 as DT.

On the first turn I deploy drop pods 1 (with killteam 1) and 3 (with the dread), and drop pod 2 is never used, since the squad doesn't fit in it...

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I didn't know it came from juggling around weapons. Apologies.

However I did say bread and butter troops; characters have always been able to take a comical assortment of weapons, just that most people generally don't buy two ranged weapons for them.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
That and they *may* be allowed to be taken alongside a bolter, for no detriment.

Seems you're convinced the Shotgun is going to be FAQ'd to two-handed.
I'm looking at the Plasma Pistols and Hand Flamers as well, both are pistols so you can use both of them in shooting or overwatch and you're packing two melee weapons to boot.

He means you're effectively switch between the Shotgun and the Bolter. Currently no other bread and butter troops can keep their primary firearm when getting an alternative, which is a huge boon since it gives them even more options. If Selym implied that they might Errata this into "Replace bolter" then that's a good assumption, as most other cases like this is usually "replace" as well.

The "two handed" rule hasn't mattered (or even applied to) to ranged weapons for at least three editions now.

Actually, Grey Hunters can carry three weapons and that hasn't been FAQ'd out.
They take close combat weapons, they're paying for them but they're also not swapping for them so if you cough up the 2ppm they're carrying Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat weapons, giving them an extra attack in close combat.
Swapping between a Shotgun and Bolter doesn't seem so wild when versatility seems to be Deathwatch's biggest strength

I said primary weapon, not sidearms or their butterknife.

RAW a Grey Hunter could have a Plasma Gun, Boltgun, and Bolt Pistol at the same time if they so choose (and pay the points).

 GoonBandito wrote:
I can't see why they'd disallow it. For some reason they decided not to give Veterans Bolt Pistols and instead give them CCWs, which is utterly pointless from a rules point of view other than to make Deathwatch Veterans the only Marines unable to shoot and charge by default. At least allowing them to carry a Boltgun and a Shotgun gives them the flexibility of the firepower of the Bolter and the Assault weapon capability of the Shotgun.

I thought it was odd that they didn't have bolt pistols. The only thing I can think of is that they want you to add an Infernus Heavy Bolter or Frag Cannon in there, seeing as they're assault weapons.

Also, the close combat weapons get replaced if they take a power sword, don't they? (Providing you don't swap it for the boltgun obviously).