Seriously, Fantasy was a better game in every sense, and had 30 years of history with amazing characters.
They kill off fantasy because they don't think it's salvageable, an atrocity in my eyes.
And now that they've released this hot garbage called AOS and are peddling it everywhere, they even stream tournaments now? They get all these new models and constant updates for a year?
Where was this for the last decade before they decided to kill off the game that literally put GW on the map?
Look, this topic has been done to death and I'm frankly sick of hearing it. It may be a surprise to you, but some people really like AoS. Sure it had a bumpy start but at least it's trying to fix it's problems, ala General's Handbook.
Also, answering the question on constant updates. Why would GW release a HUGE scaled new IP and not follow up with new models?
And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.
Yes, I know it is frustrating one of your favourite games suddenly goes under, but you have to understand WHFB was slowly dropping sales and that means as a company GW had to do something. Now was AoS the best option? Possibly, we don't know. But right now, WHFB, now known as AoS, has looked the strongest it has been for a long time.
EDIT: I just want to add that I played a bit of WHFB during 7th and early 8th. While it wasn't my main game, I did still have a somewhat decently sized force for it. I felt mentioning this was important so this discussion could be structured rather than "your opinion is wrong cos you like AoS". And while I do like AoS, it's not like I don't understand what point you're making either.
Look, this topic has been done to death and I'm frankly sick of hearing it. It may be a surprise to you, but some people really like AoS. Sure it had a bumpy start but at least it's trying to fix it's problems, ala General's Handbook.
Also, answering the question on constant updates. Why would GW release a HUGE scaled new IP and not follow up with new models?
And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.
Yes, I know it is frustrating one of your favourite games suddenly goes under, but you have to understand WHFB was slowly dropping sales and that means as a company GW had to do something. Now was AoS the best option? Possibly, we don't know. But right now, WHFB, now known as AoS, has looked the strongest it has been for a long time.
They could have done starter skirmish to the existing game and there would be no problem.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Seriously, Fantasy was a better game in every sense, and had 30 years of history with amazing characters.
They kill off fantasy because they don't think it's salvageable, an atrocity in my eyes.
And now that they've released this hot garbage called AOS and are peddling it everywhere, they even stream tournaments now? They get all these new models and constant updates for a year?
Where was this for the last decade before they decided to kill off the game that literally put GW on the map?
WHFB wasn't that great, I miss it, sure, but I think Age of Sigmar is a much more enjoyable game (to say that one is better than the other isn't possible, as they are both very different games and fall into completely different and incomparable categories) and a far more unique setting.
Anyway, WHFB simply wasn't selling. Towards the end of WHFBs run they released a few new armies with tons of new minis which were basically dead on arrival and nobody purchased any of it, so they pulled the plug. The only people to blame on this one are WHFB's "fans" who created a toxic community that refused to support the game monetarily or with any amount of exposure that would keep it solvent against its competitors, and which scared off any potential new interest in the game with its constant bitching about how broken and crappy it was.
And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
While I think it would have been better to take the Sigmarines to the Warhammer World instead of the Warhammer World to Sigmarville, I am currently okay with what we are left with.
It would have been nice if GW had finished 8th then wrapped it up and sent it off to Forge World, but I am still crossing my fingers and hoping they do that sometime after Bloodbowl.
Warhammer FB just was not selling, sure there was a huge fan base, but most people already had their armies. Even though the cost per model was not so outrageous (Witch Elves being the worst offender) the cost for a playable army was out of control.
I am currently getting my Old World fix from Total Warhammer, and now that the old Warhammer World is dead I am confident that Total Warhammer will have a very free reign with what units can be brought into the game. GW would have been throwing red lights at cool units that they do not make anymore like the Tutogen Guard. Sure GW were silly not to take advantage of the Total War Warhammer game, I think they should have had Legendary Lord character packs ready to go from day 1.
I would like to see a proper Warhammer Mass battles game, but I think it would be foolish to simply port back the old WHFB rules. What I would like to see would be a merging of old WHFB, Warmaster and AoS creating a Meaty Hybrid (or Chaos Spawn).
For example, use Elements with a uniform frontage (120mm for Cavalry and Infantry). Give a minimum amount of models per element and it does not matter what base the actual model is on. This would preserve AoS models within a Mass Battle format. The rest would all be finer details.
The fluff on the other hand... realm gates are fine, and I loved the Death Gate Cycle back in the day (not sure if I could finish it these days), but I think I prefer my Warhammer in fewer worlds. I am currently not sure if the ideal number would be 1, but it is certainly fewer than near infinite.
It kind of feels like no one actually read past the first few sentences in the OP.
He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.
Well, the answer to that is that Tom Kirby was to blame, as he is for the death of WHFB. All the new promoting and support AoS is getting is ENTIRELY the new CEOs doing. Tom Kirby killed WHFB, made AoS then shoved all the responsibility of making it work off onto his replacement. If Kirby had stepped down 5 years ago, Fantasy would probably still be with us and likely in a better position.
It kind of feels like no one actually read past the first few sentences in the OP.
He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.
No, I definitely answered that:
Anyway, WHFB simply wasn't selling. Towards the end of WHFBs run they released a few new armies with tons of new minis which were basically dead on arrival and nobody purchased any of it, so they pulled the plug. The only people to blame on this one are WHFB's "fans" who created a toxic community that refused to support the game monetarily or with any amount of exposure that would keep it solvent against its competitors, and which scared off any potential new interest in the game with its constant bitching about how broken and crappy it was.
and
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
Sim-Life wrote: He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.
Without breaking out to a different customer base, nothing would have changed. As has been pointed out, there were a few large army reboots right before the end that didnt register in sales. Try to sell whatever you like to the same old players who have all they need, they might buy just the new latest thing if at all. They would never buy enough to save it.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.
AOS is not a bad idea, but l.ike a lot of things it was poorly implemented. However there have been secondary changes. I will bullet point for easier reference.
1. Most importantly there has been a clearout at GWHQ, not only Kirby but a lot of deadwood management has gone. This has resulted in changes.
2. Kirby was responsible for AOS, but his successors were reponsible for making it work, those changes also apply to 40k.
3. Most notable of the above are the inclusion of starter boxsets which offer a clear supposed value. also the inclusion of a major model in each starter rather than mondane troops/core choices is a big factor in its success.
4. AOS is not a failure, but itsd success can be misattributed. It has sold well because it is new and has been plugged heavily.
5. Also a number of people have been 'panic buying' Gw models. There have been sales spikes of soon to be discontinued lines. This is all listed as a successful sale for AOS.
6. Having WHFB left out of the hands of GW designers has caused a rennaisance in 9th Age and various 8.5 projects.
7. Also people have been buying AOS/Fantasy miniatures after returning to the hobby via Total War: Warhammer.
The a\bove can cause AOS to be a success even without AOSD being a part of the success.
Now:
8. AOS has pulled entry level to the hobby from 13 to 8. The average thirteen year old in the UK will find gaming 'sad' and not take up the hobby, eight year olds do not have this baggage. When in the hobby the new customer can stay in and past thier teen years.
9. GW is making plans for release of earlier titles. Battlefleet Gothic and Epic are the most requested and will come first. A whole new department has been started for this taking the number of main departments from three to four. It has been rumoured that WHFB is in the pipeline released as an independent ruleset. But that is a low priority and will only happen when specialist games has established itself.
The important point to note here is that these releases are not intended as a side action, but a core part of the companies repertoire. BFG, Mordhiem. Blood Bowl etc are intended to have an identicle size presence collective to AOS or 40K. also specialist games are not needed to be 'dumbed down', some releases will be widened to fit AOS, others left alone because an in depth specialist game has its own niche.
WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. Frankly the changes of the last few months have shown GW to be headed belatedly in the right direction. I am disappointed with AOS on a personal basis, but I see the need for it.
WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. .
Was this actually a question ever?
Also, if GW big heads look at TW:W numbers they see the need for the product.
You are snipping the quote so it reads as something other than it sys.
Mismanagement hasn't made WHFB dormant.
End Times 'killed off' WHFB and GW have placed that part of their IP on hold outside of external franchise sales.
WHFB will come back when GW can afford to provide it, and that will happen when specialist games has made a crapton of money from BFG and Blood Bowl, both of which are licenses to print mo0ney that prior, useless, management left fallow.
WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. .
Was this actually a question ever?
Also, if GW big heads look at TW:W numbers they see the need for the product.
You are snipping the quote so it reads as something other than it sys.
Mismanagement hasn't made WHFB dormant.
End Times 'killed off' WHFB and GW have placed that part of their IP on hold outside of external franchise sales.
WHFB will come back when GW can afford to provide it, and that will happen when specialist games has made a crapton of money from BFG and Blood Bowl, both of which are licenses to print mo0ney that prior, useless, management left fallow.
Partially yes
The thing is that I look around miniwargamings older WHFB batreps and people say in recent comments ( 1-3 months old ) that its looks cool. People would try it our, if they had the option to try it out.
This shows the failure that GW didnt used TW:W as a cross sales platform.
Well, the answer to that is that Tom Kirby was to blame, as he is for the death of WHFB. All the new promoting and support AoS is getting is ENTIRELY the new CEOs doing. Tom Kirby killed WHFB, made AoS then shoved all the responsibility of making it work off onto his replacement. If Kirby had stepped down 5 years ago, Fantasy would probably still be with us and likely in a better position.
The same man who thought that reducing the amount of models in the boxes and hiking the prices was a good strategy. He didn't play the games and treated his employees like garbage. He considered cutting prices a heresy in the worst form and fired anyone who questioned his handling.
I'm glad he's gone, but sadly the damage has already been done.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.
This. People love to trot out that WHFB was basically not ever selling anything with no evidence whatsoever.
Sim-Life, we dont have figures but GW have said they werent making money on the product line, and they can defintively say so because they have the sales records.
IIRC earlier this decade the entirety of WHFB collectively made as much profit as one popular, but not-marine, faction for 40K. Likely Eldar or Tau. Space marines alone outsold all of Warhammer by a very considerable margin.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.
This. People love to trot out that WHFB was basically not ever selling anything with no evidence whatsoever.
Well, do you have evidence of how much it was selling?
The fact that AOS exists should be evidence enough that the profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB. A company doesn't usually take a huge risk with one of their largest IPs, unless there is a drastic reason to.
Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:
"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-
1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"
herjan1987 wrote: Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:
"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-
1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"
By the way the whole thing was copy pasted from Warseer.
Making a profit \= making a good profit. This is a basic business concept, he even says it himself that it was "not as much as some people would like."
I mean, did you even read what I said? "The profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB" which doesn't mean they are not making any profit, it means that the profit they are making is not enough to be worth the support of that product line.
herjan1987 wrote: Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:
"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-
1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"
By the way the whole thing was copy pasted from Warseer.
Making a profit \= making a good profit. This is a basic business concept, he even says it himself that it was "not as much as some people would like."
I mean, did you even read what I said? "The profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB" which doesn't mean they are not making any profit, it means that the profit they are making is not enough to be worth the support of that product line.
I know, but its not like what other people are saying that WHFB was not making profit at all. We propebly all know which are the reasons that it wasnt making enought profit.
IIRC earlier this decade the entirety of WHFB collectively made as much profit as one popular, but not-marine, faction for 40K. Likely Eldar or Tau. Space marines alone outsold all of Warhammer by a very considerable margin.
Yeah, but Space Marines outsell everythingGW does. Whether that's because they get all the love - and thus publicity, starter sets, new rules, and so forth - or because more people like them is up for debate, but if Space Marines are considered the yardstick to measure profitability by, then everything else GW sells is in big trouble.
I'm honestly willing to bet that Space Marines outsell Age of Sigmar as well.
They likely do, but the better takeaway from that was that the entire WHFB range only sold as much as a non-marine army, even after the boost by the end times.
Yeah, the armies weren't selling but that's because GW were expecting people to buy 50 models for a unit.
Saying "well it didn't sell as well" is like saying "they made a platinum and gold diamond ring, but it didn't sell, so obviously no one wants to buy them".
WHFB was given no entry level support like the "start an army" sets we have now. Like why not introduce a WHFB set skirmish game like AoS WITHIN THE SETTING? There was actually already a skirmish level rule set published by GW in existence. Why not just update and republish that?
The death of WHFB is entirely on Kirby's head and it wouldn't have been hard to drum up some interest, it's just that Kirby was a congenital idiot with the busines sense of a brick.
I find myself doubting how easy that would be to just make it so a game that was doing poorly would be made to make even less profit by dropping the models needed and, as most keep arguing for, the prices.
It seems to me that would've brought it down from 5-15% profit to 2-10% profit since people would have spent less altogether for it then.
I can't really blame GW for not capitalizing on TW either since that's purely a hindsight thing. Putting the entire future of a franchise on the popularity of a game that would take years of development with a unclear release date and could possibly be "Rome 2: fantasy edition" definitely would seem a risky investment that could've killed fantasy completely and damaged the company.
There's definitely things GW should have done to make fantasy a success but that should have happened around 6th edition with reasonable army sizes and better overall support for the game. 8th edition, while very good on it's own merits, kind of put fantasy's foot in the grave.
Sim-Life wrote: WHFB was given no entry level support like the "start an army" sets we have now. Like why not introduce a WHFB set skirmish game like AoS WITHIN THE SETTING? There was actually already a skirmish level rule set published by GW in existence. Why not just update and republish that? .
Because with AoS they could 'justify' including Not-Space Marines and tide Lil Timmy over into Fantasty with boltgun crossbows and drop pod lightning strikes.
They probably realised doing so within Fantasy as it existed would have been too much of a hard sell. Thus, Fantasy went in the bin.
We know Fantasy was pulling in a profit, it just wasn't profitable enough for their liking. When your 40k line is 50% some variety of Space Marine and another 20% Imperials who can ally with Space Marines, its pretty easy to see why they thought it would be worth it.
I played WHFB in 5th edition and 7th edition. I got re-interested in the hobby because of TW:W. While I very much understand why people are upset by the destruction of the setting, I honestly think that the result is better for the hobby. WHFB was a very, very hard game to get into. It just feels clunky and takes a huge investment of time and money.
AoS, on the other hand, is much easier to pick up and WILL grow the hobby in ways that WHFB could not.
Furthermore, fan projects like 9th age are keeping WHFB alive and arguably even improving it. At a certain point, as a WHFB player, I got sick of the power creep of new releases and feeling pressured to buy new models to stay competitive, or being stuck with an old army and feeling like I couldn't compete. When 8th was announced and my Wood Elves were still working with a 6th ed rulebook it was such a slap in the face.
WHFB has had a ton of time to develop, and now it can continue to flourish as a fan designed entity. Without the profit motive, I think it will become a better game over time. I also think that AoS players will to some extent migrate to WHFB 9th age or legacy ruleset games. Rebasing is a pain, but I already know of people who started with AoS who are now playing both AoS and 9th age.
I'm sad that the Old World went and agree that it wasn't strictly necessary. It might have been a terrible decision.
I don't resent it though; I was never in it for the lore primarily. I made my own lore.
What did the 6th edition do to give Games Workshop 50% of its revenue, that later editions failed to maintain?
And yes WHFB had 2 skirmish games, without Mordheim.
WHFB skirmish and WHFB Warbands. Why couldnt they just rehash those? I read the Skirmish one and there are a ton ( 42 ) of fun scenarios. With model count going as low as 1 giant and 5 slayers.
I didn't get into fantasy till AoS, but not from lack of trying.
As I was in the process of getting out of 40k, I looked pretty hard at WHFB, even going so far as to buy the rulebook and dark elf book. And while I liked the setting and a good amount of the units, I couldnt get into the game. Didnt like army comp, and even just reading the boards here, I didnt like the sound of how the game played.
Fast forward to a couple of months ago and with the generals handbook dropping (and seeing actual support) I starting buying minis from GW again.
Maybe it's because I don't really like the idea of massed army battles. Or even that I don't want to build and paint hundreds of minis to get a 'normal' sized army. But even reading the 9th Age rules, it still turns me off from playing.
End times and killing WHFB seemed really dumb, but I probably wouldn't be playing now if they hadn't killed it AND started building everything up again.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.
This. People love to trot out that WHFB was basically not ever selling anything with no evidence whatsoever.
On the contrary, there's a lot of evidence that given proper love it did sell.
The first End times books (before becoming an obvious cash grab with dwindling page numbers and crazier rules) sold out on release. Nagash, the morghast, etc. sold out, to the point that some Nagash kits were shipped on blank boxes, etc.
And then.... you know what came next.
I still hold AoS figures suspect. First because there's no absolutely no context (some times it's sales, some times it's profits, whatever) and because what I hear from the actual boots on the ground (shops). Second, because there was a massive clearout of old WHFB models that was so successful they did re-runs of some items.
Obviously the bean counters are chalking that as AoS sales.
Can we try and avoid this degrading into which sold better than the other. We can't possibly say. All the financial reports said was that the last few months of AoS classed sales sold has monthly sales better than WFB monthly sales in last couple of years and leave it as that.
On the question yes I am slightly annoyed because WFB may not have been in such a bad way if they had actually spent a bit more time on it; in hindsight it's like 8th was damned from day one and setup to squeeze the last penny out of it before it was scrapped. On the other hand I don't think it would have solved the overriding problem of cost. However having an updated WFB WHQ and Old World Skirmish game would have been a pleasant surprise and may have acted as more of a gateway.
Instead of AoSuck they could have updated Mordhiem and Warbands. now you have three ways to play WFB. Mordhiem for 5-10 mini range, Warbands which is around the size of what AoS is and then WFB for your large scale games. Everyone wins and if they wanted to stream line it they already had great rules to do so with the Lord of the Rings rules. Those are much better rules than the over simplified mindless rule set AoS is.
I'm sad that the Old World went and agree that it wasn't strictly necessary. It might have been a terrible decision.
I doubt anyone at GWHQ considers it a terrible decision as AoS is now selling better than WHFB as per their financial report.
I mean it's pretty easy for a game that's had like 6+ months of constant releases and exposure to sell better than a game that was put on the back burner with a few sparse releases per year, with those releases constantly being inflated in price to insane levels ("Hey you want a unit of these basic guys? Ok, just buy them 10 at a time for $60-something AUD. Did we tell you that you'll probably want 30-40 guys in a unit? And you'll probably want at least 2 of those? Plus some smaller Archer units that are made from the same kit?").
If GW had changed their strategy a small amount they could have continued selling WHFB. Instead they decided to mostly ignore it when they weren't trying to price-gouge the player base and ended up nuking the entire game and setting when the decided being the 3rd most popular ttg in the world wasn't enough.
Drahazar1 wrote: Instead of AoSuck they could have updated Mordhiem and Warbands. now you have three ways to play WFB. Mordhiem for 5-10 mini range, Warbands which is around the size of what AoS is and then WFB for your large scale games. Everyone wins and if they wanted to stream line it they already had great rules to do so with the Lord of the Rings rules. Those are much better rules than the over simplified mindless rule set AoS is.
Hmmm, speaking of which I do hope they start up a new Mordheim ruleset in AoS, though what would they fight for I wonder..
Also really, AoSuck? You couldn't have come up with something more creative?
I've said this on other websites, I'm sure it's been said here as well but for me, WHFB/AoS is a hybrid entity at the moment, in that it consists of the 'lore' from the Old World that I've always read and loved, with the new game/rule 'system' - rules are always in flux and to me this is just another version of the game.
Any rule edition can always be jumped to, etc. I'm not involved in tournament scenes/competitive gaming so I get to do what I want with my Fantasy universe.
I'm glad AoS is doing well, just means more minis for me!
Always be skeptical of "X product line was not profitable" style arguments, at least when it comes to GW.
First, who here has actually seen the numbers?
Second - and more importantly - even assuming WHFB was not profitable, there's the question of why. Was it because the game itself, not just Eighth Edition but the whole idea of mass battles with ranked figures, is really a dead end for the business? Or was it perhaps that they neglected the game, for whatever reasons? The resurgence of interest in LotR/Hobbit has opened my eyes to the fact that whether GW lavishes a line with attention or not does not necessarily reflect consumer appetite.
I think the more likely explanation for the demise of WHFB is that GW decision makers envision the company as first and foremost a producer of high quality miniatures, where quality means intricate detail and dynamic sculpts. This simply syncs up better with a skirmish game format than a mass battles one. In the latter case, you need lots of miniatures that are easy to paint and are relatively statically posed so that they rank up nicely.
So it was probably less "WHFB is dead and we have to change it" and more "skirmish rules better support miniatures-focused marketing."
Manchu wrote: Always be skeptical of "X product line was not profitable" style arguments, at least when it comes to GW.
First, who here has actually seen the numbers?
Second - and more importantly - even assuming WHFB was not profitable, there's the question of why. Was it because the game itself, not just Eighth Edition but the whole idea of mass battles with ranked figures, is really a dead end for the business? Or was it perhaps that they neglected the game, for whatever reasons? The resurgence of interest in LotR/Hobbit has opened my eyes to the fact that whether GW lavishes a line with attention or not does not necessarily reflect consumer appetite.
I think the more likely explanation for the demise of WHFB is that GW decision makers envision the company as first and foremost a producer of high quality miniatures, where quality means intricate detail and dynamic sculpts. This simply syncs up better with a skirmish game format than a mass battles one. In the latter case, you need lots of miniatures that are easy to paint and are relatively statically posed so that they rank up nicely.
So it was probably less "WHFB is dead and we have to change it" and more "skirmish rules better support miniatures-focused marketing."
Manchu,
A company like GW does not dump millions into something like AOS, and "discontinue" a product and rules line that they have been selling for over twenty years, for "Minuture-focused Marketing." AOS is a huge risk, and one they would only take if current and future profit projections for WHFB were grim.
Now, I am sure that pivoting to the skirmish and miniature oriented nature of AOS was fully intended, but this is a byproduct of WHFB failing,and GW needing to come up with what they believe the best solution for future sales.
Actually, it makes perfect sense for GW to dump WHFB given their miniatures-centric view of their business. This is why AoS is built around the concept of using whatever miniatures you like, as long as they are AoS miniatures. The premise is, here's something you can do with all the miniatures you've collected, as opposed to collecting certain miniatures to play the game.
WHFB did not have to fail, whether it did or not (no one posting here can say whether it did). There is nothing inherently unmarketable about a ranked mass battles game. But GW did not want to sell that kind of product line.
Manchu wrote: Actually, it makes perfect sense for GW to dump WHFB given their miniatures-centric view of their business. This is why AoS is built around the concept of using whatever miniatures you like, as long as they are AoS miniatures. The premise is, here's something you can do with all the miniatures you've collected, as opposed to collecting certain miniatures to play the game.
WHFB did not have to fail, whether it did or not (no one posting here can say whether it did). There is nothing inherently unmarketable about a ranked mass battles game. But GW did not want to sell that kind of product line.
Manchu,
GW would not dump a well established IP and product line and take a huge risk, if it was meeting what the company determined to be an acceptable profit. GW is not a large enough company to take a gamble like that, unless it was the only way forward.
GW did not want to sell the WHFB line because it wasn't meeting their profit expectations. Hastings acknowledged this. GW decided to go the skirmish route with AOS, because it closely matched the significantly more profitable and popular 40k line.
Manchu wrote: even assuming WHFB was not profitable, there's the question of why. Was it because the game itself, not just Eighth Edition but the whole idea of mass battles with ranked figures, is really a dead end for the business? Or was it perhaps that they neglected the game, for whatever reasons?
It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Furthermore: whether or not WHFB was inherently doomed to failure, or neglected by a company unwilling to and/or incapable of supporting it, there would not have been much risk in rebooting WHFB into AoS. The only other option would be to discontinue without replacing WHFB, either all at once or by allowing it to continue to wither on the vine.
I'll preface this by saying that I DO NOT like AoSAT ALL.
That being said, Fantasy was dead and needed a reboot. No one was buying new armies, games and clubs consisted of people that already had their armies and were not buying anything new.
And I've noticed locally that AoS games are slowly creeping up in size to the point (at least around here) where they're looking like WHFB games.
Given time I think that AoS will eventually become WHFB again.
I haven't given up on my WHFB, it's just collecting dust under the bed while we go through this "transition phase". At least I know have the time to catch up on my back-log of painting and I've even finally started collecting and painting that dwarf army that I've been meaning to get around to. I just collect and play based off of the 9th age ruleset. It's a good game I would suggest giving it a go.
Manchu wrote: And we're right back to where I started:
Manchu wrote: even assuming WHFB was not profitable, there's the question of why. Was it because the game itself, not just Eighth Edition but the whole idea of mass battles with ranked figures, is really a dead end for the business? Or was it perhaps that they neglected the game, for whatever reasons?
It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Furthermore: whether or not WHFB was inherently doomed to failure, or neglected by a company unwilling to and/or incapable of supporting it, there would not have been much risk in rebooting WHFB into AoS. The only other option would be to discontinue without replacing WHFB, either all at once or by allowing it to continue to wither on the vine.
There is a risk, and it is not small at all. The millions poured into development, marketing, new models etc etc is not a small investment for a company of GW's size. In addition, if AOS was to perform worse, then this would have been a huge loss to GW.
I disagree with your assumption. AoS relies on a massive back catalog of models. There is no evidence that the models and books developed specifically for the launch represent a larger expenditure than simply supporting WHFB with further releases. The only additional costs would be developing the AoS rules, which are four pages long.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Where was this for the last decade before they decided to kill off the game that literally put GW on the map?
I disagree with that statement.
2013 saw about half a dozen Army books, various plastic kits some of which were for older army books, 1 Multiplayer expansion, 1 Campaign book, and numerous scenarios and battlefield DLC to supplement the stale BRB scenarios. Compared to the release schedule of years previous, that was a pretty explosive surge of WHFB.
Looking back, I feel like 2013 was GWs last push to make WHFB work or at least more profitable than it was.
2013 saw about half a dozen Army books, various plastic kits some of which were for older army books, 1 Multiplayer expansion, 1 Campaign book, and numerous scenarios and battlefield DLC to supplement the stale BRB scenarios. Compared to the release schedule of years previous, that was a pretty explosive surge of WHFB.
Looking back, I feel like 2013 was GWs last push to make WHFB work or at least more profitable than it was.
Yeah I agree with this, GW did try with all the supplements, to expand the game and get interest going. Storm of Magic, Blood in the Badlands, Triumph and Treachery, Mighty Empires. I mean they really did try. It's just the fact that the game did suffer from the fact that army building was a chore compared to other games. I don't have the highest opinion of AoS but the way the release schedule works and the "Take what you want, play how you want!" aspect, at least from a marketing perspective, is superior in every way.
My main beef is with the fact they could have done all of this without completely destroying the Old World.
Yeah, I didn't mention the End Times releases because that's where most folks complaints of destroying fantasy start.
As to your comment that I quoted, I'll supplement it by pointing out the Wood Elves Army book, which I believe was the last Army book released for 8th Edition, had plot hooks and tidbits of something coming that only make sense when those story threads were tied in the various End Times books. Not to mention the High Elf Princess kidnapped by Manfred storyline that started in the 8th Edition BRB(I think, memory fails me atm) and continued across various Army books, again culminating in the End Times.
Let's say for the sake of argument that GW did try to "save WHFB." Why then did they fail? To put it more specifically, why didn't any of their efforts attract sufficient numbers (whatever those might be) of new customers?
During the same period, GW raised prices multiple times, curtailed online retail sales, moved more and more products to direct-only sales, and tightened agreements to bar customers in certain regions from taking advantage of better prices in others. In short, the toys became a lot more expensive.
As the name implies, mass battles games require a lot of miniatures. That doesn't just mean buying a lot of models - it also means assembling and painting a lot of models. So we're talking about a product line that is already expensive, in terms of the customer's time. So you're adding increased prices to that cost.
This period is also characterized by increasingly complex and detailed sculpting, including larger models. WHFB is played with ranked formations, limiting the miniatures' range of poses. Additionally, highly detailed models just add to the time costs discussed above - and ranking doesn't really reward spending lots of time on each figure.
In summary, GW's larger business model at the time was simply incompatible with supporting a mass battles game. It's no coincidence that another company took off around this time, focused on sleeker rules and affordable models. But of course, they have very different business models.
2013 saw about half a dozen Army books, various plastic kits some of which were for older army books, 1 Multiplayer expansion, 1 Campaign book, and numerous scenarios and battlefield DLC to supplement the stale BRB scenarios. Compared to the release schedule of years previous, that was a pretty explosive surge of WHFB.
Looking back, I feel like 2013 was GWs last push to make WHFB work or at least more profitable than it was.
Yea, 2013 was definitely a push. Although I'm not certain if it was 6 army books, but I could be wrong.
This is an example of maybe the last ditch effort on GW part. However I'm talking more recently developed things that AOS has going for it like a full campaign that is actually being promoted online by GW and even has interactive elements to it by changing rules etc. as the war goes on.
They are streaming tournament play now.
And they have all of those start collecting boxes that allow you to basically purchase a single box and play. Something that Fantasy needed desperately and never received. Even battalion boxes weren't legal armies in most cases.
Well, there's certainly signs of projects having to start before Roundtree and other people are also affecting what the company does but I'd imagine he's a big driving force for GW's upswing.
Drahazar1 wrote: Instead of AoSuck they could have updated Mordhiem and Warbands. now you have three ways to play WFB. Mordhiem for 5-10 mini range, Warbands which is around the size of what AoS is and then WFB for your large scale games. Everyone wins and if they wanted to stream line it they already had great rules to do so with the Lord of the Rings rules. Those are much better rules than the over simplified mindless rule set AoS is.
Hmmm, speaking of which I do hope they start up a new Mordheim ruleset in AoS, though what would they fight for I wonder..
Also really, AoSuck? You couldn't have come up with something more creative?
Haha, same here. I hope we might see a focus on explorers going through ruins throughout the realms left behind after chaos invaded.
Lots of possibilities for what any warband might be seeking in terms of relics, magic or knowledge and each location can be effected by numerous events depending on the realm like shadows swarming in to completely scatter your forces or the forces of nature and chaos clashing so one side of the ruins heals while the other inflicts disease.
It'd certainly seperate itself from all the Mordheim clones that are currently out, at any rate.
Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.
That is the most garbage i've ever heard. The complaints when GW ended fantasy was that they pulled in anywhere from 15%-18% and End Times brought it more people. 5% doesn't even agree with GW numbers and from what i saw in the store from buyers they didn't agree with your numbers either unless it flopped everywhere else. In fact AoS was a dead game in the store until probably a couple months ago. It probably picked up when they threw down a points system. What i find funniest of all is when mostly AoS players that played 40k listen to GW and what they saw from the outside of the game and come to their conclusions. Most fantasy players knew AoS was hot garbage and when they played it like i did knew it was even hotter garbage. GW have spent next to no effort on the old armies instead having sigmarines and chaos. Oddly i can't remember anybody in the store buying the new dwarfs or even the new orc army. If i recall there's sigmarines, a couple undead armies and skaven. Funny how the skaven player seems pretty interested in buying my models from me rather than the GW store though. I haven't sold him any but i thought about it. I just find it funny how GW barely releases anything for AoS. It's like it's dead before it even started.
@motski: You mean the same people that won't let us play our 'dead' game in their stores. I wonder why they won't. Perhaps if we could and the still supported their 'dead' game like all the others we'd see how much more popular 8th ed fantasy is.
The first year was pretty saturated with Bloodbound and the Stormcast, I will agree that was pretty poor startup, though they've been making up for lost times it seemed when they started focusing elsewhere.
That and they haven't had a focus on them modelwise lately, though storywise they seem to be trying to flesh them out a bit more.
Well they got a little focus in the recent start collecting sets and are in the new "mini" starter sets as well. There's also Gore Chosen which focuses on Khorne's boys. (Would be nice to get an order version of that, Stormcast have a training arena from the Aelves afterall.)
But this is getting off-topic, so sorry about that.
Well after they Squatted Tomb Kings I decided to take my army to 9th age and KoW.
And yes they were Squatted
but they still have war scrolls and can be played and they still sell their mini's.
so where are new mini's for my army. were are the new war scrolls and battalions. were are the new rules and support for my army. That's right no where so TK and Brettonians are squatted.
AoS is on its way to become super bloated with rules, supplements and such. but they have a free app. yeah you still have to buy all the war scrolls that are not base. They have come out with multiple battle tombs and alliance books and more will continue to the point you will have hundreds of books, scrolls and sub factions to keep track of.
yeah you still have to buy all the war scrolls that are not base.
False, all new models have had their Warscrolls loaded onto the GW website, the only thing that isn't loaded onto the site are the Battalion and Allegiance rules.
They have come out with multiple battle tombs and alliance books and more will continue to the point you will have hundreds of books, scrolls and sub factions to keep track of.
Well all the base allegiance rules are within the Generals handbook which apparently is going to be updated by the year, And the battletomes may add new rules to an army but it's not exactly a gaping sprawl like 40k's majority.
That's right no where so TK and Brettonians are squatted.
Yep, though from some of the lore blurbs throughout the books there may be a new TK type army, considering the Crimson Monarchy.. Though of course that'll be up to GW if they capitalize it or not, pity there may not be something for Brets though as I did love the whole holy grail aesthetic.
Nope I don't resent it at all. WHFB had long ago busted off its rails circa 7th edition and was a lot like 40k is now (also a busted off its rails game).
AoS is becoming part of GW eco system. In 10 years WHFB will be a fondly remembered system by veterans with starry eyed newbs grabbing the 2nd or 3rd iterations of celestials wondering wtf these old grognards are yakking about.
Drahazar1 wrote: Well after they Squatted Tomb Kings I decided to take my army to 9th age and KoW.
And yes they were Squatted
but they still have war scrolls and can be played and they still sell their mini's.
so where are new mini's for my army. were are the new war scrolls and battalions. were are the new rules and support for my army. That's right no where so TK and Brettonians are squatted.
AoS is on its way to become super bloated with rules, supplements and such. but they have a free app. yeah you still have to buy all the war scrolls that are not base. They have come out with multiple battle tombs and alliance books and more will continue to the point you will have hundreds of books, scrolls and sub factions to keep track of.
Man they'll learn the hard way GW is evil. I didn't like GW and i used to eat up some of their garbage. Even Mat Ward which was heavily despised in 40k didn't irritate me that much. I despise everything AoS did and how GW handled it. The alienation of their Fantasy fans many of whom were loyal show just what GW feels about loyal fans not forking over enough money.
Oh and the original reason why they squatted Fantasy is because of the percentage of their business it was. Of course AoS only gathered in people that were in 40k or leaving 40k meaning it lost its Fantasy fans and gained nothing. Funny how all the people in the AoS threads were 40k players before and nobody new has joined from what i've seen.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Man they'll learn the hard way GW is evil. I didn't like GW and i used to eat up some of their garbage. Even Mat Ward which was heavily despised in 40k didn't irritate me that much. I despise everything AoS did and how GW handled it. The alienation of their Fantasy fans many of whom were loyal show just what GW feels about loyal fans not forking over enough money.
Oh and the original reason why they squatted Fantasy is because of the percentage of their business it was. Of course AoS only gathered in people that were in 40k or leaving 40k meaning it lost its Fantasy fans and gained nothing. Funny how all the people in the AoS threads were 40k players before and nobody new has joined from what i've seen.
I wouldnt underestimate the effect of the Chapterhouse ruling. GW learned from it, it may not have been the only factor, but going forward with all new versions of the factions they can protect and dropping the rest in the compendium to languish forever certainly shows GW being more conscious of it.
AoS was doing well in my area, the GH brought in a lot of the old WHFB holdouts, and sparked a host of warmahordes players to launch their own uber competitive league (their words not mine). My Bretonnians appreciate the Compendium update, we miss the flavor of the old spells but are enjoying it for what it is.
My Bretonnians appreciate the Compendium update, we miss the flavor of the old spells but are enjoying it for what it is.
Must feel good to be nicely competitive again eh?
Of course AoS only gathered in people that were in 40k or leaving 40k meaning it lost its Fantasy fans and gained nothing. Funny how all the people in the AoS threads were 40k players before and nobody new has joined from what i've seen.
Indeed, I'm a fantasy player since 2008 and have moved to AoS. (Though I'll happily play older editions and 9th as well)
Also, the "nobody new joined" means you clearly don't even visit the AoS page. Just a glance will show about 8 "just started" threads.
As a Bretonnian player (fanatic) I think AoS basically did everything right but discontinue the line, funnily enough.
Killer cavalry, deadly Bowmen, useful peasants who can threaten wizards and great heroes. They even mesh well with the Stormcast since they share the paladin keyword.
Too bad the Empire beat them on pure popularity, confounded gun lovers!
AoS is becoming part of GW eco system. In 10 years WHFB will be a fondly remembered system by veterans with starry eyed newbs grabbing the 2nd or 3rd iterations of celestials wondering wtf these old grognards are yakking about.
You wont need 10 years to get 3rd iteration of AoS. They said they update Generals handbook yearly.
AoS is becoming part of GW eco system. In 10 years WHFB will be a fondly remembered system by veterans with starry eyed newbs grabbing the 2nd or 3rd iterations of celestials wondering wtf these old grognards are yakking about.
You wont need 10 years to get 3rd iteration of AoS. They said they update Generals handbook yearly.
Of course that all depends on what all is updated, if it's just all the stuff in the generals handbook does this mean they'll be updating the base ruleset as well?
AoS is becoming part of GW eco system. In 10 years WHFB will be a fondly remembered system by veterans with starry eyed newbs grabbing the 2nd or 3rd iterations of celestials wondering wtf these old grognards are yakking about.
You wont need 10 years to get 3rd iteration of AoS. They said they update Generals handbook yearly.
Of course that all depends on what all is updated, if it's just all the stuff in the generals handbook does this mean they'll be updating the base ruleset as well?
Point cost updates would probably be almost guaranteed.
As far as base rules, with how receptive GW seems in some of the British podcasts that I listen to, I think they could change/ adjust as well. Pure speculation, but it seems possible with the posture GW has adopted lately.
Whirlwind wrote: Can we try and avoid this degrading into which sold better than the other. We can't possibly say. All the financial reports said was that the last few months of AoS classed sales sold has monthly sales better than WFB monthly sales in last couple of years and leave it as that.
No, we can't leave it at that because that's not what they said.
The way they worded it we have no idea if it was "monthly sales", they gave no indication of how they calculated it, it was an extremely vaguely worded statement that could be interpreted in many ways.
The way they worded it struck me as being very non-committal, designed to catch out people who don't read things carefully enough to realise they could have easily fudged the numbers.
My Bretonnians appreciate the Compendium update, we miss the flavor of the old spells but are enjoying it for what it is.
Must feel good to be nicely competitive again eh?
Actually does, apart from bretonnians seemingly becoming the holy grail on ebay since the squatting, I'm loving them in AoS. Just wish damsels could heal units and not just models. My MaA loved that.
Whirlwind wrote: Can we try and avoid this degrading into which sold better than the other. We can't possibly say. All the financial reports said was that the last few months of AoS classed sales sold has monthly sales better than WFB monthly sales in last couple of years and leave it as that.
No, we can't leave it at that because that's not what they said.
The way they worded it we have no idea if it was "monthly sales", they gave no indication of how they calculated it, it was an extremely vaguely worded statement that could be interpreted in many ways.
The way they worded it struck me as being very non-committal, designed to catch out people who don't read things carefully enough to realise they could have easily fudged the numbers.
So you've just basically stated that they are lying to their investors then, do you really believe that?
Actually does, apart from bretonnians seemingly becoming the holy grail on ebay since the squatting, I'm loving them in AoS. Just wish damsels could heal units and not just models. My MaA loved that.
Well at least you are also free to use most old empire units as well due to how prevalent the Free People keyword is, what sort of army do you use?
Actually does, apart from bretonnians seemingly becoming the holy grail on ebay since the squatting, I'm loving them in AoS. Just wish damsels could heal units and not just models. My MaA loved that.
Well at least you are also free to use most old empire units as well due to how prevalent the Free People keyword is, what sort of army do you use?
I have two units of sixteen archers, love the spikes. I am eight men at arms short of two units of 32 (biggest want atm). 24 KoR, 5 questing knights. 6 pegasus knights, lord, prophetess, one mounted damsel, three on foot, two paladins on foot, three gripping beast tebuchet. Pack of 12 hunting hounds I run from the wanderer list as a hunting pack with a huntsman stand in.
Really hoping to get the Duke with the axe over his sholder, some grail knights, just a few more men-at-arms and then start a keep. Whats a Bretonnian Lord without a keep on a hill right?
Dont need a ton, just crazy how expensive the Bretts got on ebay, its for the Lady though, so its fine.
Whirlwind wrote: Can we try and avoid this degrading into which sold better than the other. We can't possibly say. All the financial reports said was that the last few months of AoS classed sales sold has monthly sales better than WFB monthly sales in last couple of years and leave it as that.
No, we can't leave it at that because that's not what they said.
The way they worded it we have no idea if it was "monthly sales", they gave no indication of how they calculated it, it was an extremely vaguely worded statement that could be interpreted in many ways.
The way they worded it struck me as being very non-committal, designed to catch out people who don't read things carefully enough to realise they could have easily fudged the numbers.
So you've just basically stated that they are lying to their investors then, do you really believe that?
No, I don't believe they're lying, I believe there's a good chance they had to fiddle with the numbers to make it sound like AoS is doing better than WHFB so they purposefully used a vague statement.
I am assuming everything they've said is truthful. But the way they said it can be interpreted many different ways and still be considered truthful.
What they said was at best vague and at worst misleading. Here is what they ACTUALLY said...
as we released more of the range in the second half of the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years.
The way it was worded there is no way to determine how they calculated it, what period the rate was taken over or even if sales were taken over the same amount of time.
If AoS was clearly and obviously doing better than WHFB I would have expected them to use more definite and less ambiguous wording to actually quantify the increase. Like "In the last 6 months AoS has sold at least 12.5% better than Warhammer has enjoyed over any 6 month period for the last 4 years". But they didn't do that, they used vague terminology which means they could have used one of a dozen calculation methods and still been able to come up with the statement they made.
Obviously it worked because you get people on internet forums claiming what Whirlwind said even though it's not what GW themselves said.
Whirlwind wrote: Can we try and avoid this degrading into which sold better than the other. We can't possibly say. All the financial reports said was that the last few months of AoS classed sales sold has monthly sales better than WFB monthly sales in last couple of years and leave it as that.
No, we can't leave it at that because that's not what they said.
The way they worded it we have no idea if it was "monthly sales", they gave no indication of how they calculated it, it was an extremely vaguely worded statement that could be interpreted in many ways.
The way they worded it struck me as being very non-committal, designed to catch out people who don't read things carefully enough to realise they could have easily fudged the numbers.
So you've just basically stated that they are lying to their investors then, do you really believe that?
No, I don't believe they're lying, I believe there's a good chance they had to fiddle with the numbers to make it sound like AoS is doing better than WHFB so they purposefully used a vague statement.
I am assuming everything they've said is truthful. But the way they said it can be interpreted many different ways and still be considered truthful.
What they said was at best vague and at worst misleading. Here is what they ACTUALLY said...
as we released more of the range in the second half of the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years.
The way it was worded there is no way to determine how they calculated it, what period the rate was taken over or even if sales were taken over the same amount of time.
If AoS was clearly and obviously doing better than WHFB I would have expected them to use more definite and less ambiguous wording to actually quantify the increase. Like "In the last 6 months AoS has sold at least 12.5% better than Warhammer has enjoyed over any 6 month period for the last 4 years". But they didn't do that, they used vague terminology which means they could have used one of a dozen calculation methods and still been able to come up with the statement they made.
Obviously it worked because you get people on internet forums claiming what Whirlwind said even though it's not what GW themselves said.
Quite true.
When Black Library makes such bold statments that Age of Sigmar book series is popular and their werent able to sell the limited editions then I will start to doubt how honest their are.
I think the most misleading thing they could have done (and I'm not necessarily saying they did this) would be to take the last few months where AoS had a lot of releases and thus a lot of sales to calculate an average rate of sales. Then take WHFB over the last 4 or so years (where on average there weren't many releases) and calculate an average rate of sales over that period.
Even if AoS was doing poorly, using that calculation method you could come to the same conclusion GW came to...
"as we released more of the range in the second half of the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years."
I'm not necessarily saying that's what they did.... but they could have. Usually when you use vague statements in what should be a technical document (like a financial statement) it's because you can't commit to using a concise one.
I don't think we will really know anything about the sales until the end of the year. Especially since I have a strong suspicion that a lot of the numbers also factor in the "Last Chance to Buy" that happened at the beginning of the year counting towards the overall AoS sales numbers.
I mean I haven't bought anything direct from GW since 2008 but even I bought some Last Chance to Buy items.
No resentment here, AoS is a fairly passing game. It will never be a top tier game, and it certainly didnt catch fire everywhere, but it wasnt a total failure either, The generals handbook saved it from being an also ran. IT did have a epically horrible roll out and was a massive dissappointment to a large group of players. The setting is gawds awfully sold, it could have been good, but its just...not. Overall its a second tier game that replaced a dying game. The rules were the problem, not the setting. I do hope that AoS gets better and moves to better things, but the glory of warhammer fantasy is faded, partly due to much better competition,.
Tribalism: that amazing human pathology wherein we only believe what we want to believe and disbelieve anything contradicting regardless of facts (see also voting, and two-party political system)
AOS is what it is. Not liking it is fine. Playing games you enjoy is also fine.
Trying to claim financial knowledge over what is selling better globally is laughably absurd. Trying to claim knowledge over what game is being played over another globally is equally absurd.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't hold much weight unless the discussion is on a local area like a city.
In my city, AOS is the only fantasy game being played. KOW has a tiny group of five guys that play at the tourney store. 9th age was never received at all.
Does that mean KOW and 9th age is dying or not doing well at all? Of course not. Its just here that is the case.
WHFB was dead here. We have a much larger fantasy player base now. I'm at least thankful for that.
Enjoy what you enjoy, have fun doing it, but trying to claim dominion over financial data or what is being played more than anywhere else globally cannot be taken seriously because none of us know.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't hold much weight unless the discussion is on a local area like a city.
In my city, AOS is the only fantasy game being played. KOW has a tiny group of five guys that play at the tourney store. 9th age was never received at all.
The anecdotal evidence you're attempting to present here is intrinsically flawed, though.
How big is your city? Mine has 4.5 million people. I doubt with my limited scope I could say jack gak with any real authority.
It's impossible to have real anecdotal evidence of even any decent-sized city, especially as many people play at home and in smaller groups and buy online. 9th Age has rules that are available online, for free, and uses people's existing armies. Probably not a huge surprise then, if it's not big in your local tourney store? KoW/Mantic have a very small retail presence compared to GW, and a ton of their stuff is online via KS and online sales, and also uses people's existing forces. AoS is the new hotness with new retail product and much-improved community support via GHB. No surprise to me that it has good visibility.
How could you know if a city of "only" 100,000 people has people playing WHFB or KoW as opposed to only AoS? Gaming groups in a few stores are perhaps indicative for some people and (very) local groups, but can hardly be fully representative of a whole city.
While it's clear that WHFB took a huge hit in playerbase, and those players largely fractured into AoS/T9A/KoW/quitting outright, I don't think it's fair to say that any of them are truly dead. It seems to me that without the new release cycle and store support, those games would have moved closer to the historical gamer model. We know they're out there, but they're not playing in the GW clubs or most of the stores with the small exceptions of a little KoW or BA perhaps.
I dislike that Warhammer died. I dislike the high fantasy/psudo sci-fi hero hammer of Age of Sigmar's fluff and it's mechanical game play.
However the death of Warhammer and the subsequent failing of AoS to encapture what so many people liked about Warhammer lead to the creation of Ninth Age. A functioning system lead by a caring and growing community that plays better than warhammer ever did. So all is well that ends well I guess.
Their move to 1.2 really makes me question how caring they are. Changing everything up so they can legally publish and sell rulebooks? Kind of a step away from the "by the community, for the community" mentality.
Oh well, they need money I suppose..
I really wish they'd listen to the KoE players, though. They're basically a peasant horde army which no one asked for. (Okay, a scant few people asked for it but why listen to the 5%?)
Baron Klatz wrote: Their move to 1.2 really makes me question how caring they are. Changing everything up so they can legally publish and sell rulebooks? Kind of a step away from the "by the community, for the community" mentality.
Oh well, they need money I suppose..
I really wish they'd listen to the KoE players, though. They're basically a peasant horde army which no one asked for. (Okay, a scant few people asked for it but why listen to the 5%?)
I was under the impression they were going to keep the basic rulebooks available as free .pdfs and the move was to let them try and break into making official models and sell rulebooks with art/fluff sections.
And last I checked KoE worked quite well as a traditional Bretonnian knight army, the peasant horde is an optional approach they expanded on a bit but the knights still work fine. (They may have nerfed the 4+-ward Grail Knight lance and Paladin spam, but it was the most powerful thing in 9th Age at its height and probably needed to take the hit.)
Baron Klatz wrote: Their move to 1.2 really makes me question how caring they are. Changing everything up so they can legally publish and sell rulebooks? Kind of a step away from the "by the community, for the community" mentality.
Oh well, they need money I suppose..
I really wish they'd listen to the KoE players, though. They're basically a peasant horde army which no one asked for. (Okay, a scant few people asked for it but why listen to the 5%?)
I think you're a little mistaken on the first point. Ninth is entirely non-profit, no one is selling official rule books for profit. You're correct that they had to change names up so they could legally publish things, but who does that surprise? Most name changes are quite small, and a few sound a lot better than their GW counterpart. E.G Blade Dancers instead of War Dancers, Wild Huntsmen instead of Wild Riders,
I do agree they are having issues with KoE, but that is quite simply because heavy cavalry is the hardest thing to balance in the game, and KoE are an entire army of the stuff! So it makes sense that KoE are a polarising army, and lets not forget that KoE Knight lists have been doing very well in team tournaments. Thus proving my original point, Knights are still powerful albeit match up dependent.
The rules are indeed free on their forum but the move to 1.2 was a huge change to move away from 8th edition rules, farther away from GW's property and to allow them to start publishing rulebooks and models. The donations apparently weren't enough to keep the project going as smoothly as they would've liked.
The KoE problem has always been a bad one, they went to unplayable at the beginning to finally balanced at 1.1. We even got brigands after the dozens of "what do you want in KoE" polls that were basically ignored. That's gone now too.
The knights are playable but hardly proper shock cavalry or comparable to other army cavalry like EoS. We're now a brightly colored hit-and-run force, unless you go heavy on the peasants.
Baron Klatz wrote: Their move to 1.2 really makes me question how caring they are. Changing everything up so they can legally publish and sell rulebooks? Kind of a step away from the "by the community, for the community" mentality.
Oh well, they need money I suppose..
I really wish they'd listen to the KoE players, though. They're basically a peasant horde army which no one asked for. (Okay, a scant few people asked for it but why listen to the 5%?)
I was under the impression they were going to keep the basic rulebooks available as free .pdfs and the move was to let them try and break into making official models and sell rulebooks with art/fluff sections.
And last I checked KoE worked quite well as a traditional Bretonnian knight army, the peasant horde is an optional approach they expanded on a bit but the knights still work fine. (They may have nerfed the 4+-ward Grail Knight lance and Paladin spam, but it was the most powerful thing in 9th Age at its height and probably needed to take the hit.)
Rules are still free but the fact they couldn't continue to rely on just that and other companies to support them with models is what's raising some eyebrows.
The anger at the move is certainly felt on the forum, the several cases of people(and some mods) replying "good that those people left the forum, that means the ones left are those who enjoy the game" is rather a bad sign as well as the drop in site activity.
It's not all gloom of course. It's just like the shift GW took with AoS, a need for better IP and profit with a shaky start up. Given time 9th will fully recover and be going strong again.
The KoE army is definitely peasant dependant right now, 9th age has a huge focus on heavy infantry and hordes and KoE is feeling that. The knights have to stick to hit-and-run to be effective.
Do I resent AOS for killing Fantasy Warhammer?
Yes, yes I do.
I have tried AOS, and its just not what I want.
They should have never killed off the old world, they could have very easily transitioned back into a skirmish game like 40k / Mord style.
Some one will read this and shrug it off as just another AOS hater, but i actually tired it and didnt have anything good to say about it.
I dont even like the new models, dont get me wrong GW makes some killer models, but all the AOS look like to much is going on, i like details but i dont need the models to all like like they got rolled in a bitz box. They all look like Mr T designed the models, just to much ornaments and ring and jewelry crap on them all.
Also, elephant in the room, the prices for all the newer AOS models are stupidly overpriced.
You dont have to like what i said, but its how i see it.
I don't resent AoS. I think it's a wonderful way to make me interested in Warhammer Fantasy again when I gave up on WHFB in its sixth edition. I do wonder who the Doctor Who Miniature Game fan in the studio is though.
I don't resent it, as locally I don't see it getting much love. If anything, I see quite a few shops scaling back their AOS products, and currently are doing more business with GW's competition. If it wasn't for classichammer I wouldn't be able to get a game in, but fortunately in my area at least there are some people who are willing to go retro.
what I have noticed here is an almost complete retreat of GW. You used to be able to go to any store in town and get a game of 40k, and much less but still viable and there WHFB, since 40k has gone "off the rails" so to say with super heavies and flyers and epic scale everywhere and AoS, you have to go to GW or you are just not gonna get a GW game in. I tried bringing AoS to my local store and the result was a resounding "that game sucks"
thekingofkings wrote: what I have noticed here is an almost complete retreat of GW. You used to be able to go to any store in town and get a game of 40k, and much less but still viable and there WHFB, since 40k has gone "off the rails" so to say with super heavies and flyers and epic scale everywhere and AoS, you have to go to GW or you are just not gonna get a GW game in. I tried bringing AoS to my local store and the result was a resounding "that game sucks"
Efff, my city has six LGS, two GWs. Fantasy was pretty much a dead thing but I've seen a lot of AoS activity. Heck I didn't play fantasy and bought 500 euros in AoS minis. I've come to realize this game is a lot case by case. Either it goes bang or it doesn't stick at all.
I see a lot of people buying boxes of Fantasy models, and when I go back (I normally go twice a week for a few hours) they are usually restocked. PS Plz us the term "Vampire Counts" you triggered meh
Damikeis wrote: I see a lot of people buying boxes of Fantasy models, and when I go back (I normally go twice a week for a few hours) they are usually restocked. PS Plz us the term "Vampire Counts" you triggered meh
And degrade the flesh-eaters to the inbred vermin that are ghouls? Puh-leeze, those heroes deserve the proper treatment for surviving half a millenia under chaos... and turning into raving lunatics that even Nagash fears.
Damikeis wrote: I see a lot of people buying boxes of Fantasy models, and when I go back (I normally go twice a week for a few hours) they are usually restocked. PS Plz us the term "Vampire Counts" you triggered meh
And degrade the flesh-eaters to the inbred vermin that are ghouls? Puh-leeze, those heroes deserve the proper treatment for surviving half a millenia under chaos... and turning into raving lunatics that even Nagash fears.
They are true heroes knights, paladins and true soldiers fighting the evil barbarians for the great necro- I mean ANGEL who is a TRUE holy figure of goodness and justice!(Those who bent the knee of course)
Damikeis wrote: What is there to like about age of sigmar. It is 40k with less guns, and more balance issues.
And that's why in so far the top five lists of four different tournaments during a period where there have been no new army releases have been utterly different, even when it comes to army composition. RIGHT, totally unbalanced in favour of three armies. Oh wait...
That there's a very alive community (big enough to make multiple comps and then make consistently 100+ player tournaments-and those aren't the biggest!-) shows that many people are disagreeing with your opinion. And disproving it to boot.
Damikeis wrote: If they would have let age of sigmar, and fantasy co-exist a majority of players would still be playing fantasy.
And for that I'm happy fantasy is dead. Seeing you salty is beautiful. Now, the videos has a big issue and is that the vampire guys bring quite OP units. Blood dragons (not on this video, in another of the tests) have been always murder on wheels, even on AoS. It was a foregone conclusion.
Damikeis wrote: Seeing you love space marines in a medieval setting brings a tear to my eye
Never heard of space marines being female. In my opinion stormcast are much more interesting marines they were inspired by them that's obvious to anyone but fluff wise it's like night and day.
Damikeis wrote: Seeing you love space marines in a medieval setting brings a tear to my eye
Never heard of space marines being female. In my opinion stormcast are much more interesting marines they were inspired by them that's obvious to anyone but fluff wise it's like night and day.
Never heard of space marine being dwarfs, elves, undead (and not in dreadnought boxes) or being scared to die. Never heard either of marines being generally gathered from ADULTS who keep intact (for a time, they are nowhere as strong) their memories and DO care of them. Also never heard of marines being dominated by their feelings quite often or caring for their non-astartes relatives on a personal and non-abstract basis.
Damikeis wrote: Seeing you love space marines in a medieval setting brings a tear to my eye
Never heard of space marines being female. In my opinion stormcast are much more interesting marines they were inspired by them that's obvious to anyone but fluff wise it's like night and day.
Never heard of space marine being dwarfs, elves, undead (and not in dreadnought boxes) or being scared to die. Never heard either of marines being generally gathered from ADULTS who keep intact (for a time, they are nowhere as strong) their memories and DO care of them. Also never heard of marines being dominated by their feelings quite often or caring for their non-astartes relatives on a personal and non-abstract basis.
Actually stormcast are only humans now in light of recent lore and Josh reynolds been questioned on this recently. But everything else is correct.
GW had a meeting and it went like this..
It was May 2014
"The franchise that started us, and has been going on for 30 years is doing bad sales wise. Wut do we do?"
Matt Ward "Know wut fk it i quit imma go write some books n gak. Ps about your problems space marines make everything better... even more so when it comes to ones that are painted blue n gold" Matt ward would storm off.
"Well glad he is gone... But he did have a point"
"Lets add in space marines to fantasy! Yeah! Great Idea!"
"Wait even better idea yet! Lets just fething scrap it and mash 40k and fantasy, along with some bull gak into this hybrid that makes chaos spawn look like Victoria's secret angels!"
He said it's unlikely and I can still dream. He said it's unlikely yeah, but most likely they'll have a test subject mucking around witht he Astral Templars... which ain't that different than orruks to be honest.
Mainly a human force but I'm sure he'll have some non-humans for prototypes and gaks and giggles.
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Damikeis wrote: GW had a meeting and it went like this..
It was May 2014
"The franchise that started us, and has been going on for 30 years is doing bad sales wise. Wut do we do?"
Matt Ward "Know wut fk it i quit imma go write some books n gak. Ps about your problems space marines make everything better... even more so when it comes to ones that are painted blue n gold" Matt ward would storm off.
"Well glad he is gone... But he did have a point"
"Lets add in space marines to fantasy! Yeah! Great Idea!"
"Wait even better idea yet! Lets just fething scrap it and mash 40k and fantasy, along with some bull gak into this hybrid that makes chaos spawn look like Victoria's secret angels!"
That is how age of sigmar was born.
Nice attempt at being a troll, how's the contract with the salt mines going by the way?
Damikeis wrote: GW had a meeting and it went like this..
It was May 2014
"The franchise that started us, and has been going on for 30 years is doing bad sales wise. Wut do we do?"
Matt Ward "Know wut fk it i quit imma go write some books n gak. Ps about your problems space marines make everything better... even more so when it comes to ones that are painted blue n gold" Matt ward would storm off.
"Well glad he is gone... But he did have a point"
"Lets add in space marines to fantasy! Yeah! Great Idea!"
"Wait even better idea yet! Lets just fething scrap it and mash 40k and fantasy, along with some bull gak into this hybrid that makes chaos spawn look like Victoria's secret angels!"
Most people use the grand alliance book than the compendiums many of the warscrolls there have been removed and many warscrolls that made it into the grand alliance tome have been changed and updated. Case example his warscroll Kurt is not part of the grand alliance book free people BUT if you want to use that OLD warscroll it's down to who you are playing with. Heck you can't even buy him anymore on the game workshop site. Hence why if you dislike such a thing you can you know talk with the person you are playing.
Hell in my store no one has used any of those "joke" rules most people stick with the updated stuff. Now if someone came with his model and wanted to use it? We just count he has the special rule where he can re roll his failed hit rolls it's not a big deal unless you make it such he is not even THAT good.
This is the Wfb section, let Damikeis have his fun. That's what most 8th sections are nowadays anyway, AoS bashes and the occasional 8th list question.(Shrugs)
thekingofkings wrote: what I have noticed here is an almost complete retreat of GW. You used to be able to go to any store in town and get a game of 40k, and much less but still viable and there WHFB, since 40k has gone "off the rails" so to say with super heavies and flyers and epic scale everywhere and AoS, you have to go to GW or you are just not gonna get a GW game in. I tried bringing AoS to my local store and the result was a resounding "that game sucks"
Now you see, this is why I don't understand people wanting GW to close all it's little stores. They're a huge money sink yeah but it can be the only place to get some games in if shops are playing other things or there's no flgs at all in the area.
This is the Wfb section, let Damikeis have his fun. That's what most 8th sections are nowadays anyway, AoS bashes and the occasional 8th list question.(Shrugs)
thekingofkings wrote: what I have noticed here is an almost complete retreat of GW. You used to be able to go to any store in town and get a game of 40k, and much less but still viable and there WHFB, since 40k has gone "off the rails" so to say with super heavies and flyers and epic scale everywhere and AoS, you have to go to GW or you are just not gonna get a GW game in. I tried bringing AoS to my local store and the result was a resounding "that game sucks"
Now you see, this is why I don't understand people wanting GW to close all it's little stores. They're a huge money sink yeah but it can be the only place to get some games in if shops are playing other things or there's no flgs at all in the area.
Haha, sorry! I always appreciate you sticking up for AoS but I just see this as a waste of time.
Lord Kragan wrote: He said it's unlikely and I can still dream. He said it's unlikely yeah, but most likely they'll have a test subject mucking around witht he Astral Templars... which ain't that different than orruks to be honest.
Mainly a human force but I'm sure he'll have some non-humans for prototypes and gaks and giggles.
That'd definitely be cool to see.
I bet that'll reference that in the future, it'd be a great callback to the early AoS discussions.
Damikeis wrote:My shop still stocks a ton of Fantasy stuff, guess the owner's have good taste.
I'd stock up if I were you.
And there's the question of the day: if you are an AOS player and not a WFB Legacy player, why are you even in this subforum, let alone in a thread actively trying to goad someone? THIS is the exact kind of behavior that is dividing the community, and it isn't going to win hearts and minds in here as it is.
There's something called freedom of expression. In addition, this is a discussion about AoS, if you haven't seen the fact that it's been alluded a lot of times. Also, "dividing the community"? Sorry to break this but these are two separate communities by and large that won't change their tune.
thekingofkings wrote: what I have noticed here is an almost complete retreat of GW. You used to be able to go to any store in town and get a game of 40k, and much less but still viable and there WHFB, since 40k has gone "off the rails" so to say with super heavies and flyers and epic scale everywhere and AoS, you have to go to GW or you are just not gonna get a GW game in. I tried bringing AoS to my local store and the result was a resounding "that game sucks"
Efff, my city has six LGS, two GWs. Fantasy was pretty much a dead thing but I've seen a lot of AoS activity. Heck I didn't play fantasy and bought 500 euros in AoS minis. I've come to realize this game is a lot case by case. Either it goes bang or it doesn't stick at all.
I have heard it is Much more popular in Europe than the US.
From what I know it does have quite a following there. Heck, England's had already somewhere along the lines of four or so tournaments (big ones) since the publishing of GHB.
Lord Kragan wrote: From what I know it does have quite a following there. Heck, England's had already somewhere along the lines of four or so tournaments (big ones) since the publishing of GHB.
I am in a metro area of over 3 million, with at least a dozen stores and I can only play AoS at one of them, thats not a good following at all. We tried getting it going at the biggest game store in the metro area and the answer was a resounding "NO" the GW is the smallest store by orders of magnitude and with only 2 tables we have to share with 40k. That is not good in any way. pretty much x-wing and warmahordes have rendered gw extinct here. There are no tourneys of it in 3 states. and to get into an even somewhat regular group, I have to drive over 70 miles to a different city altogether. anecdotal yes, but in way of comparison, your metro area is about half our size and I would guess neither warmahordes or x-wing are particularly big there.
Lord Kragan wrote: From what I know it does have quite a following there. Heck, England's had already somewhere along the lines of four or so tournaments (big ones) since the publishing of GHB.
I am in a metro area of over 3 million, with at least a dozen stores and I can only play AoS at one of them, thats not a good following at all. We tried getting it going at the biggest game store in the metro area and the answer was a resounding "NO" the GW is the smallest store by orders of magnitude and with only 2 tables we have to share with 40k. That is not good in any way. pretty much x-wing and warmahordes have rendered gw extinct here. There are no tourneys of it in 3 states. and to get into an even somewhat regular group, I have to drive over 70 miles to a different city altogether. anecdotal yes, but in way of comparison, your metro area is about half our size and I would guess neither warmahordes or x-wing are particularly big there.
Ouf that's brutal... and also a rather low contentration. I mean, Barcelona has 1.3 Million in the Metro area and we have aroung six independent stores and two GWs (one as you describe and the other has somewhere along the lines of four tables plus two small ones dedicated to dioramas that can be turned into an impromptu table). And they do have a bunch of AoS players. Heck my Main LGS has like 30+ AoS players (then again it has quite a few tables).
Lord Kragan wrote: From what I know it does have quite a following there. Heck, England's had already somewhere along the lines of four or so tournaments (big ones) since the publishing of GHB.
I am in a metro area of over 3 million, with at least a dozen stores and I can only play AoS at one of them, thats not a good following at all. We tried getting it going at the biggest game store in the metro area and the answer was a resounding "NO" the GW is the smallest store by orders of magnitude and with only 2 tables we have to share with 40k. That is not good in any way. pretty much x-wing and warmahordes have rendered gw extinct here. There are no tourneys of it in 3 states. and to get into an even somewhat regular group, I have to drive over 70 miles to a different city altogether. anecdotal yes, but in way of comparison, your metro area is about half our size and I would guess neither warmahordes or x-wing are particularly big there.
Ouf that's brutal... and also a rather low contentration. I mean, Barcelona has 1.3 Million in the Metro area and we have aroung six independent stores and two GWs (one as you describe and the other has somewhere along the lines of four tables plus two small ones dedicated to dioramas that can be turned into an impromptu table). And they do have a bunch of AoS players. Heck my Main LGS has like 30+ AoS players (then again it has quite a few tables).
Indoor activities are not what my state is known for,. When I lived in England virtually every small town around had at least 1 game store (even tiny little huntingdon) GW shot itself in the foot with this stupid 1 man store BS. And I dont have trouble getting games with other AoS players (noone has ever accused my GBT of being OP..ever, and its 12-4) though there is a split there between those who do and dont use points (the vast majority use points, I do not) but getting anyone to try it, ,.. you would think i was trying to convert them to scientology. AoS did itself no favors by keeping its "warhammer" links and comes across as a halfassed game relying on previous models.
for full disclosure here, MY favorite game is Confrontation, a French game that seems to repel people like a skunk wrapped in garbage :(
Lord Kragan wrote: There's something called freedom of expression. In addition, this is a discussion about AoS, if you haven't seen the fact that it's been alluded a lot of times. Also, "dividing the community"? Sorry to break this but these are two separate communities by and large that won't change their tune.
So slip the shoe on the other foot, how happy would you be if Big D there took his anti-AOS rhetoric in the AOS subforum? I sincerely doubt you'd be as ready to cry "freedom of expression" as you are in this forum. It's no different than when the Bronies would try to turn every single damn thread on every message board into a MLP:FIM discussion. Actually, that's a good point as well, howabout the Warmahordes crowd coming into your AOS threads to rail on AOS and puff up WM/H? You can't say with a straight face that you'd be fine with that.
Damikeis wrote: Just got back from the hobby shop. Shoulda seen the look on this one kid's face when i took the last steam tank before he could get to it.
Lord Kragan wrote: There's something called freedom of expression. In addition, this is a discussion about AoS, if you haven't seen the fact that it's been alluded a lot of times. Also, "dividing the community"? Sorry to break this but these are two separate communities by and large that won't change their tune.
So slip the shoe on the other foot, how happy would you be if Big D there took his anti-AOS rhetoric in the AOS subforum? I sincerely doubt you'd be as ready to cry "freedom of expression" as you are in this forum. It's no different than when the Bronies would try to turn every single damn thread on every message board into a MLP:FIM discussion. Actually, that's a good point as well, howabout the Warmahordes crowd coming into your AOS threads to rail on AOS and puff up WM/H? You can't say with a straight face that you'd be fine with that.
Or... well, virtually any post Kaiyanwang makes regarding AoS, tbh. Still he provides a few insightful points between the sea of bile he has stored across the years he's dealt with GWs gak.
Newsflash, I'd not mind because I'm a person who LOVES to bicker and argue. So how about you don't strawman me and be a person who actually uses arguments rather than: surely you wouldn't in truth!
If anything you should feel ashamed of what you're saying because what you're defending. behind this shaming you're doing on me (you'd not do it in truth, admit it, you'r just like x, if it happened to you you'd not like it, hipocrite!), is defending an echo chamber: you don't want AoS players giving an opinion on AoS. You just want fantasy players to speak on the matter. No, don't come at me with that, you yourself said what the hell is a non-fantasy player doing here!
And that, dear, is the death of reason: when you don't want to hear people disagreeing with you, you're shutting down to any kind of debate. And that's why I say there's no convincing to be done. For people like YOU.
By your own skewed metrics this page, which is related to another game that isn't fantasy, should have been closed.
The very first post is based on AoS, and more than half of the following ones, not counting mine. So how about we... which words did you use in another conversation? Ah yes... how about YOU take a few steps backwards and see the whole picture beyond your own ego?
Damikeis wrote: Just got back from the hobby shop. Shoulda seen the look on this one kid's face when i took the last steam tank before he could get to it.
thats kind of.....not nice.
Agreed. You should be helping kids get into the hobby, not feeling good about ruining it for them.
Damikeis wrote: Just got back from the hobby shop. Shoulda seen the look on this one kid's face when i took the last steam tank before he could get to it.
thats kind of.....not nice.
Agreed. You should be helping kids get into the hobby, not feeling good about ruining it for them.
Low move.
Maybe it tore him emotionally, he just hasn't said it. Maybe he handed it to him. C'mon don't assume the worse. He just said: he took it not that he bought it.
This is the Wfb section, let Damikeis have his fun. That's what most 8th sections are nowadays anyway, AoS bashes and the occasional 8th list question.(Shrugs)
.
That's what happens when forum admins appropriate forums for existing games without notice or consultation and then half-arse moving posts across to the wilderness corner they chose to banish the original users to. It's telling that on those sites I visit where the admins made a new forum for AoS and forced all discussion of it there, the AoS section is tumbleweed while the WHFB forum proceeds at only a slightly reduced pace.
Oh, and you forgot the third thing that WHFB forums like this one consist of these days - snooty, up themselves AoS fans dropping in to sneer and gloat and whinge, because they simply can't bear the idea that somewhere exists where AoS isn't discussed in glowing terms.
Damikeis wrote: Just got back from the hobby shop. Shoulda seen the look on this one kid's face when i took the last steam tank before he could get to it.
thats kind of.....not nice.
Agreed. You should be helping kids get into the hobby, not feeling good about ruining it for them.
Low move.
Maybe it tore him emotionally, he just hasn't said it. Maybe he handed it to him. C'mon don't assume the worse. He just said: he took it not that he bought it.
I would hope so, because at first glance that post was kind of douchey.
This is the Wfb section, let Damikeis have his fun. That's what most 8th sections are nowadays anyway, AoS bashes and the occasional 8th list question.(Shrugs)
.
That's what happens when admins appropriate forums for existing games without notice or consultation and then half-arse moving posts across to the wilderness corner they chose to banish the original users to. It's telling that on those sites I visit where the admins made a new for AoS and forced all discussion of it there, the AoS section is tumbleweed while the WHFB proceeds at only a slightly reduced pace.
Oh, and you forgot the third thing that WHFB forums like this one consist of these days - snooty, up themselves AoS fans dropping in to sneer and gloat and whinge, because they simply can't bear the idea that somewhere exists where AoS isn't discussed in glowing terms.
Ehm, you may wanna check it by yourself but in the general discussion of AoS's subforum. At most you can see up to mid november at the end of the 1st page. This subforum, which combines tactics, matches and lore questions (things that are separate pages in the AoS one), reaches july on the first page of discussion. So who's exactly the tumbleweed?
You seem to forget, though, that the three most active threads (read, those with more than a dozen replies) are: is WHFB back? or some variation, and they involve AoS, in comments made by YOU guys. Comments that are basically lambasting: "hot-trash." is quite often said. The other third appears to be: look, x is an indicator fantasy's back!
Pretty alive if you ask me, you debate a great breadth of issues with great intensity and we just go and gloat at you non-stop. Can you hand me some of that smoke?
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Damikeis wrote: Well lets see em try to beat me with mai new steaaam tank!!!!
The same way I beat my friend's steam tank. Smashing it with a hulking green brute.
This is the Wfb section, let Damikeis have his fun. That's what most 8th sections are nowadays anyway, AoS bashes and the occasional 8th list question.(Shrugs)
.
That's what happens when forum admins appropriate forums for existing games without notice or consultation and then half-arse moving posts across to the wilderness corner they chose to banish the original users to. It's telling that on those sites I visit where the admins made a new forum for AoS and forced all discussion of it there, the AoS section is tumbleweed while the WHFB forum proceeds at only a slightly reduced pace.
Oh, and you forgot the third thing that WHFB forums like this one consist of these days - snooty, up themselves AoS fans dropping in to sneer and gloat and whinge, because they simply can't bear the idea that somewhere exists where AoS isn't discussed in glowing terms.
Huh, haven't seen much of that on warhammer forums I visit. Pretty much either alot of even activity or not much at all. (Alot of web forums seem to be on the fall these days.)
Certainly haven't seen the AoS gloating except for one troll on EEFL and the few guys around here that I advise to be more respectful. Besides, it's not like AoS forums haven't been trolled either. Just basic nature, that.(unfortunately)
Happy to hear your forums are keeping the 8th spirit alive, though.
Damikeis wrote: GW had a meeting and it went like this..
It was May 2014
"The franchise that started us, and has been going on for 30 years is doing bad sales wise. Wut do we do?"
Matt Ward "Know wut fk it i quit imma go write some books n gak. Ps about your problems space marines make everything better... even more so when it comes to ones that are painted blue n gold" Matt ward would storm off.
"Well glad he is gone... But he did have a point"
"Lets add in space marines to fantasy! Yeah! Great Idea!"
"Wait even better idea yet! Lets just fething scrap it and mash 40k and fantasy, along with some bull gak into this hybrid that makes chaos spawn look like Victoria's secret angels!"
That is how age of sigmar was born.
You do know one of the reasons he quit was because of people writing him constant death-threats.
Lord Kragan wrote: There's something called freedom of expression. In addition, this is a discussion about AoS, if you haven't seen the fact that it's been alluded a lot of times. Also, "dividing the community"? Sorry to break this but these are two separate communities by and large that won't change their tune.
So slip the shoe on the other foot, how happy would you be if Big D there took his anti-AOS rhetoric in the AOS subforum? I sincerely doubt you'd be as ready to cry "freedom of expression" as you are in this forum. It's no different than when the Bronies would try to turn every single damn thread on every message board into a MLP:FIM discussion. Actually, that's a good point as well, howabout the Warmahordes crowd coming into your AOS threads to rail on AOS and puff up WM/H? You can't say with a straight face that you'd be fine with that.
Or... well, virtually any post Kaiyanwang makes regarding AoS, tbh. Still he provides a few insightful points between the sea of bile he has stored across the years he's dealt with GWs gak.
Newsflash, I'd not mind because I'm a person who LOVES to bicker and argue. So how about you don't strawman me and be a person who actually uses arguments rather than: surely you wouldn't in truth!
If anything you should feel ashamed of what you're saying because what you're defending. behind this shaming you're doing on me (you'd not do it in truth, admit it, you'r just like x, if it happened to you you'd not like it, hipocrite!), is defending an echo chamber: you don't want AoS players giving an opinion on AoS. You just want fantasy players to speak on the matter. No, don't come at me with that, you yourself said what the hell is a non-fantasy player doing here!
And that, dear, is the death of reason: when you don't want to hear people disagreeing with you, you're shutting down to any kind of debate. And that's why I say there's no convincing to be done. For people like YOU.
By your own skewed metrics this page, which is related to another game that isn't fantasy, should have been closed.
The very first post is based on AoS, and more than half of the following ones, not counting mine. So how about we... which words did you use in another conversation? Ah yes... how about YOU take a few steps backwards and see the whole picture beyond your own ego?
lol that's what you got from that? No, a debate thread is where we have debate. Over on Warseer there was a "positive AOS thread" that was left completely alone by the anti-AOS crowd. Then someone started a "positive WFB thread" and guess what happened? Yep, exactly what you accuse the OTHER side of doing. Now if a thread invites debate, all ahead full, but if the thread is in a specific themed subforum then one would assume that it was posted through that lens. See the MLP and WM/H part of my previous post. Echo chambers. Ego. This isn't a political debate, you can't guilt me into submission.
Postive WHFB thread bombed by AoS followers, yeah gotta love the vagueness and the hard proof you have. A pity Warseer's data was lost forever, almost too convenient?
And this isn't a positive WHFB this is outright lambasting AoS.
This is a fething forum. EVERYTHING POSTED HERE IS A DEBATE. From the lists to the lore discussions. Everything is a debate.
Forum: a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. By its own bloody definition this is a Debate, because they are exchanging views and opinions and arguing about their validity. Learn about what you talk before speaking.
The pot called the kettle black I guess, with the guilt and all.
Deep breaths, Lord Kragon. In and out, in and out. In with the good feeling, out with the anger.
If there's one thing I resent about AoS it's that it's split the community so much. If things had been different we'd be talking like colleagues and enjoying ourselves instead.
[Edit]:
Baron Klatz wrote: Deep breaths, Lord Kragon. In and out, in and out. In with the good feeling, out with the anger.
If there's one thing I resent about AoS it's that it's split the community so much. If things had been different we'd be talking like colleagues and enjoying ourselves instead.
I don't breath, I just take air between my many shouts.
Baron Klatz wrote: Deep breaths, Lord Kragon. In and out, in and out. In with the good feeling, out with the anger.
If there's one thing I resent about AoS it's that it's split the community so much. If things had been different we'd be talking like colleagues and enjoying ourselves instead.
[Edit]:
Damikeis wrote: What about a mustache so great it lets me re-roll failed to hits
Beard or bust brah! no self respecting duardin has not a beard!
And no self-respecting Fyreslayer has not a beard on fire.
Beards are so in that even the God-King sports one.
He doesnt get a pass, still not Duardin, so even with his wannabeard, he gets 2 of the 3 cannons to the grill.
(in full disclosure, I despise sigmar ((whom I refer to as suckmar after reading his age of legends trilogy)) as the least interesting character in the entire warhammer/AoS existence. brooding emo barbarian doofus who couldnt even carry his own trilogy. so he gets shot regardless...waaah waaah my poor ravenna...suck it up buttercup.)
Baron Klatz wrote: Deep breaths, Lord Kragon. In and out, in and out. In with the good feeling, out with the anger.
If there's one thing I resent about AoS it's that it's split the community so much. If things had been different we'd be talking like colleagues and enjoying ourselves instead.
[Edit]:
Damikeis wrote: What about a mustache so great it lets me re-roll failed to hits
Beard or bust brah! no self respecting duardin has not a beard!
And no self-respecting Fyreslayer has not a beard on fire.
Beards are so in that even the God-King sports one.
He doesnt get a pass, still not Duardin, so even with his wannabeard, he gets 2 of the 3 cannons to the grill.
(in full disclosure, I despise sigmar ((whom I refer to as suckmar after reading his age of legends trilogy)) as the least interesting character in the entire warhammer/AoS existence. brooding emo barbarian doofus who couldnt even carry his own trilogy. so he gets shot regardless...waaah waaah my poor ravenna...suck it up buttercup.)
In hindsight he's a jackass.
Still I prefer Gork and Mork plus the Ironjawz (and specially I like the bonesplitterz).
And there's the question of the day: if you are an AOS player and not a WFB Legacy player, why are you even in this
1. Most AoS players played WHFB, hence why they still peruse this legacy forum and take part in discussions about the game(s).
2. It mentions AoS in the title.
THIS is the exact kind of behavior that is dividing the community, and it isn't going to win hearts and minds in here as it is.
Again, I think you have it backwards. First post of this thread calls AoS "hot garbage". Is that not divisive? Do you think that kind of discourse can win hearts and minds?
Baron Klatz wrote: Deep breaths, Lord Kragon. In and out, in and out. In with the good feeling, out with the anger.
If there's one thing I resent about AoS it's that it's split the community so much. If things had been different we'd be talking like colleagues and enjoying ourselves instead.
[Edit]:
Damikeis wrote: What about a mustache so great it lets me re-roll failed to hits
Beard or bust brah! no self respecting duardin has not a beard!
And no self-respecting Fyreslayer has not a beard on fire.
Beards are so in that even the God-King sports one.
He doesnt get a pass, still not Duardin, so even with his wannabeard, he gets 2 of the 3 cannons to the grill.
(in full disclosure, I despise sigmar ((whom I refer to as suckmar after reading his age of legends trilogy)) as the least interesting character in the entire warhammer/AoS existence. brooding emo barbarian doofus who couldnt even carry his own trilogy. so he gets shot regardless...waaah waaah my poor ravenna...suck it up buttercup.)
In hindsight he's a jackass.
Still I prefer Gork and Mork plus the Ironjawz (and specially I like the bonesplitterz).
I partly blame the author for making him such an uncompelling character. He was the buzzkill of what was otherwise a damn good trilogy. that and then in AoS making all these races who have their own gods and histories ride his junk was just awful. Grungi should have pimp slapped him (I could accept Gork and Mork ((or Mork and Gork as one prefers)) to kick his emo arse)
I can partly agree with statement in his trilogy. I found the founder of Marienburg alot more interesting a character. Sigmar was so-so.
Races worshipping him in AoS is alright since he's more the god of Order rather than just of humanity. Just another diety in the pantheon and the only one offering safety to them when chaos overwhelmed the realms.
Baron Klatz wrote: I can partly agree with statement in his trilogy. I found the founder of Marienburg alot more interesting a character. Sigmar was so-so.
Races worshipping him in AoS is alright since he's more the god of Order rather than just of humanity. Just another diety in the pantheon and the only one offering safety to them when chaos overwhelmed the realms.
Funny enough the other races don't worship him Sigmar just wants them to follow his laws if they are going to live in his city. Cause last time someone broke the law(civil war goaded by chaos cultists) he incinerated them and then setup a council with each race having a representative to prevent it from happening again I do agree with you on the founder of Marienburg and the side characters were a lot more interesting.
Hell soon as the gates of ayzr opened the wanderer's left and became nomadic connecting the lines of life magic across the realms which of course will empower their goddess the everqueen.
When someone questioned josh(Note:His opinion) about what the undead were doing he noted that soon as nagash's war with Archaon started majority to all the undead suddenly just packed up their bags from across all the realms and went to shyish.
Baron Klatz wrote: I can partly agree with statement in his trilogy. I found the founder of Marienburg alot more interesting a character. Sigmar was so-so.
Races worshipping him in AoS is alright since he's more the god of Order rather than just of humanity. Just another diety in the pantheon and the only one offering safety to them when chaos overwhelmed the realms.
Funny enough the other races don't worship him Sigmar just wants them to follow his laws if they are going to live in his city. Cause last time someone broke the law(civil war goaded by chaos cultists) he incinerated them and then setup a council with each race having a representative to prevent it from happening again I do agree with you on the founder of Marienburg and the side characters were a lot more interesting.
Hell soon as the gates of ayzr opened the wanderer's left and became nomadic connecting the lines of life magic across the realms which of course will empower their goddess the everqueen.
When someone questioned josh(Note:His opinion) about what the undead were doing he noted that soon as nagash's war with Archaon started majority to all the undead suddenly just packed up their bags from across all the realms and went to shyish.
That was something else that bothered me. I love Nagash (his books were awesome) but making him a god and all that to me feels rubbish. I have never approved of "mortals become gods" trope (mostly because it cheapens the gods that already exist) and he was such a good villain. That scary thing mentioned on the edge of memory. Now he seems more clownshoes and "knowable"
Baron Klatz wrote: I can partly agree with statement in his trilogy. I found the founder of Marienburg alot more interesting a character. Sigmar was so-so.
Races worshipping him in AoS is alright since he's more the god of Order rather than just of humanity. Just another diety in the pantheon and the only one offering safety to them when chaos overwhelmed the realms.
Funny enough the other races don't worship him Sigmar just wants them to follow his laws if they are going to live in his city. Cause last time someone broke the law(civil war goaded by chaos cultists) he incinerated them and then setup a council with each race having a representative to prevent it from happening again I do agree with you on the founder of Marienburg and the side characters were a lot more interesting.
Hell soon as the gates of ayzr opened the wanderer's left and became nomadic connecting the lines of life magic across the realms which of course will empower their goddess the everqueen.
When someone questioned josh(Note:His opinion) about what the undead were doing he noted that soon as nagash's war with Archaon started majority to all the undead suddenly just packed up their bags from across all the realms and went to shyish.
That was something else that bothered me. I love Nagash (his books were awesome) but making him a god and all that to me feels rubbish. I have never approved of "mortals become gods" trope (mostly because it cheapens the gods that already exist) and he was such a good villain. That scary thing mentioned on the edge of memory. Now he seems more clownshoes and "knowable"
Times of legends nagash? Eh I personally did not enjoy his book they got a lot of lore wrong and nagash was pretty much sidelined the side characters took up most of the book when it should of been about him. On the whole mortal become god trope I personally felt it made warhammer more lovecraft since it appears it's an eternal cycle of war where gods rise to fight chaos (in their own way) but are eventually defeated by chaos consumed and tortured (Ursun the kislev god is in the tortured category by the horned rat but spread his essence to the people of ghur and the land this is revealed in AOS in the warbeast novel).
Many of the warhammer world gods are actually refugee's from a previous world destroyed by chaos the question is will it be different this time. In context I finally understand why Ulric was so upset with Teclis and how he handled the flame since he felt they(Lileath and teclis) ruined their chances and as a wolf he now just wants to tear out his throat since he knows they lost. They made the point "A wolf does not die well". Unfortunately for Lileath her plan got ruined because she did not learn how to treat your followers better. *Looks at bretonnia*
The hopelessness in the face of chaos but perhaps maybe there is hope? Everything the warhammer gods did finally made sense I mean some parts of it were obviously bad but I think that aspect was one of the good parts. Hell Ulric and Taal were most likely actual brothers when mortal. Now the characters we know love or hate finally understand the predicament of chaos you get a sense of that in the writing, what they say and how they act.
Baron Klatz wrote: I can partly agree with statement in his trilogy. I found the founder of Marienburg alot more interesting a character. Sigmar was so-so.
Races worshipping him in AoS is alright since he's more the god of Order rather than just of humanity. Just another diety in the pantheon and the only one offering safety to them when chaos overwhelmed the realms.
Funny enough the other races don't worship him Sigmar just wants them to follow his laws if they are going to live in his city. Cause last time someone broke the law(civil war goaded by chaos cultists) he incinerated them and then setup a council with each race having a representative to prevent it from happening again I do agree with you on the founder of Marienburg and the side characters were a lot more interesting.
Hell soon as the gates of ayzr opened the wanderer's left and became nomadic connecting the lines of life magic across the realms which of course will empower their goddess the everqueen.
When someone questioned josh(Note:His opinion) about what the undead were doing he noted that soon as nagash's war with Archaon started majority to all the undead suddenly just packed up their bags from across all the realms and went to shyish.
That was something else that bothered me. I love Nagash (his books were awesome) but making him a god and all that to me feels rubbish. I have never approved of "mortals become gods" trope (mostly because it cheapens the gods that already exist) and he was such a good villain. That scary thing mentioned on the edge of memory. Now he seems more clownshoes and "knowable"
Times of legends nagash? Eh I personally did not enjoy his book they got a lot of lore wrong and nagash was pretty much sidelined the side characters took up most of the book when it should of been about him. On the whole mortal become god trope I personally felt it made warhammer more lovecraft since it appears it's an eternal cycle of war where gods rise to fight chaos (in their own way) but are eventually defeated by chaos consumed and tortured (Ursun the kislev god is in the tortured category by the horned rat but spread his essence to the people of ghur and the land this is revealed in AOS in the warbeast novel).
Many of the warhammer world gods are actually refugee's from a previous world destroyed by chaos the question is will it be different this time. In context I finally understand why Ulric was so upset with Teclis and how he handled the flame since he felt they(Lileath and teclis) ruined their chances and as a wolf he now just wants to tear out his throat since he knows they lost. They made the point "A wolf does not die well". Unfortunately for Lileath her plan got ruined because she did not learn how to treat your followers better. *Looks at bretonnia*
The hopelessness in the face of chaos but perhaps maybe there is hope? Everything the warhammer gods did finally made sense I mean some parts of it were obviously bad but I think that aspect was one of the good parts. Hell Ulric and Taal were most likely actual brothers when mortal. Now the characters we know love or hate finally understand the predicament of chaos you get a sense of that in the writing, what they say and how they act.
So yeah, a massive tonal shift here. Dark fantasy vs "heavy metal" (assuming you read that magazine) The hopelessness in the face of chaos added a grim aspect to the old world, here it feels so much "meh" with them going the infinite route. while I am not opposed to the "other worlds" concept, this felt too much like developers sitting around a bong with old 8th edition lore books.
And there's the question of the day: if you are an AOS player and not a WFB Legacy player, why are you even in this
1. Most AoS players played WHFB, hence why they still peruse this legacy forum and take part in discussions about the game(s).
2. It mentions AoS in the title.
However, I believe that the person I was addressing themselves said that they didn't TOUCH fantasy gaming until AOS. Him/her coming here was white knighing, pure and simple. And the antagonistic feeding of the troll is proof of that. Especially given that rather ugly comment the troll made a few posts up, which will hopefully be deleted soon.
THIS is the exact kind of behavior that is dividing the community, and it isn't going to win hearts and minds in here as it is.
Again, I think you have it backwards. First post of this thread calls AoS "hot garbage". Is that not divisive? Do you think that kind of discourse can win hearts and minds?
And if you look after that initial post, there isn't anything near as bad being said other than essentially "not my preference" or "doesn't get played here". And I think that AOS IS hot garbage compared to 6th Ed. WFB, and it is a valid opinion. State you disagree, great, but don't badger me constantly expecting to win me over. I tried it, didn't like it, have no intention of trying it again. I don't beat that kin over the head with the 6th Ed. rulebook, he/she can lay off the same behavior.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Kragan wrote: Postive WHFB thread bombed by AoS followers, yeah gotta love the vagueness and the hard proof you have. A pity Warseer's data was lost forever, almost too convenient?
And this isn't a positive WHFB this is outright lambasting AoS.
This is a fething forum. EVERYTHING POSTED HERE IS A DEBATE. From the lists to the lore discussions. Everything is a debate.
Forum: a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. By its own bloody definition this is a Debate, because they are exchanging views and opinions and arguing about their validity. Learn about what you talk before speaking.
The pot called the kettle black I guess, with the guilt and all.
You're adorable, just so you know. As I said in the post I just posted, just because someone strongly dislikes something doesn't mean you need to swoop in and sway them. They have their reasons. You didn't play WFB if memory serves, and didn't play fantasy gaming until AOS, so past saying "AOS is super tasty good and the specialist ever!!!!!11!!" can you even add to this?
Apparently WHFB was only gaming. Certainly there was no lore into it and I didn't follow the old world's story. Apparently you could only be a warhammer fan if you play the minis, despite having the army books of most armies (pirate of course, I wasn't going to pay for them) and about half the novels across the years.Put a socket on it, will you? I'm not going to follow everyone's post story just to acertain wether or not they are trolls.
Saying: "I'm white knighting" Is guilting. You're trying to make someone be ashamed by attributing them a socially reviled trait. "AoS go and bother-or whatever is you'd like to say- fantasy fans! They bombed a warseer thread" Is guilting me: I'm a AoS fan, ergo I'll do awful things to Fantasy fans. And so on.
But hey, don't worry, your strawmans will be always there for you.
Lord Kragan wrote: Apparently WHFB was only gaming. Certainly there was no lore into it and I didn't follow the old world's story. Apparently you could only be a warhammer fan if you play the minis, despite having the army books of most armies (pirate of course, I wasn't going to pay for them) and about half the novels across the years.
And you never mentioned that. You only mentioned having never touched Fantasy until AOS. So lacking the telepathic ability to ascertain what you have or have not pirated off the internet in your free time will of course lead me to not take that into consideration. So now we know: you paid attention to the fluff, just never bought a single model or played a single game until AOS. Got it. Therefore that part of it IS INDEED something belonging in this subforum, as well as why you didn't bother playing until the ruleset came out. Though I don't think you touched on that.
Lord Kragan wrote: Put a socket on it, will you? I'm not going to follow everyone's post story just to acertain wether or not they are trolls.
It's pretty easy without looking up someone's post history: person gets antagonistic, you don't goad them to further comments. And the idiom is "put a sock on it", I was genuinely confused for a second there, but also understanding because I know English isn't your first language.
No, saying you are "white knighting" is saying you are "white knighting". Whether you feel guilty about it or not is on you. Calling out overzealousness is not guilting. If I was irascible about something, I would certainly hope people would make that abundantly clear to me and let me make my own decisions with how to proceed.
Lord Kragan wrote: You're trying to make someone be ashamed by attributing them a socially reviled trait.
Socially reviled? I wouldn't say that. I'd say that white knighting is more annoying and divisive, and kills genuine discourse, but I wouldn't say socially reviled. Dendrophilia is socially reviled, I wouldn't lump white knighting in with that. Would you?
Lord Kragan wrote: "AoS go and bother-or whatever is you'd like to say- fantasy fans! They bombed a warseer thread" Is guilting me: I'm a AoS fan, ergo I'll do awful things to Fantasy fans. And so on.
But hey, don't worry, your strawmans will be always there for you.
It's not just one warseer thread, but I don't feel like 1. scrolling through other forums to prove my point, and 2. posting stuff you will simply ignore anyway. You like AOS. Other people like AOS, others don't. I don't. That part of the conversation is over.
In my opinion stormcast are much more interesting marines they were inspired by them that's obvious to anyone but fluff wise it's like night and day.
