Since we have most leaks confirmed by (sadly now removed) codex page images, I figured I'd collate them all and throw this up. Most rumors are credit to the excellent Tyranid607, who shared most of what we now know with us, and seriously deserves all the props.
General Rules:
-Genestealer Cults are explicitly Come the Apocalypse with all armies except Tyranids
and Astra Militarum (not armies of the imperium), with whom they are Allies of CONVENIENCE.
-Genestealer HQs all have the "unthinking devotion" rule, which enables them to auto-pass LOS checks, and even enables LOS checks in challenges. This is great news for the Primus and Patriarch, whose relatively low durability somewhat offsets their powerful offensive capabilities in combat.
-All GSCHQs feature a 12" bubble that buffs GSC units inside it. This is quite an interesting mechanic, particularly given the heavy MSU tendencies that GSC would ordinarily have without it. It gives you an incentive to cluster and get those beefy bonuses.
-All GSC non-vehicle units come with the Cult Ambush and Return to Shadows special rules. Cult Ambush allows you to roll on the table below when coming from ongoing reserves or when deploying if you have infiltrate. Return to Shadows allows you to take the unit off the board and into reserves in the movement phase, if you're not within 6" of an enemy or aboard a transport.
Ambush Table: (Credit Minionboy)
1: Come on from deployment edge as normal
2: Outflank
4: Set up 9" from enemy if seen, 6" from enemy if out of LOS 4: Set up 6" from the enemy, seen or not
5: Set up 6" From enemy, you get a free shooting action or run if armed with no ranged weapons
6: Set up 3" from enemy, you may charge even if it's turn 1 or you've arrived from reserves
It's important to keep in mind: The only basic troop unit that has infiltrate by nature is Purestrains, but at least the Primus allows you to add it to a unit. There are also formations (subterranean uprising and the Decurion detachment) that add infiltrate to anyone who doesn't have it. If you're not deploying via the Ambush table, it's probably not a bad idea to grab a transport, as GSC have plenty to choose from!
Additional note: none of the Cult Ambush results use the term "infiltrate" and RAW are a completely separate thing. This makes Genestealer Cults effectively proof against servo skulls.
-The broodmind discipline features a lot of mind-manipulation and psychic trickery, and overall is a solid discipline that can compete with Telepathy and Biomancy.
Primaris: Malediction that debuffs the CC stats of an enemy unit.
1: Relentless, Fleet, can Run and Shoot buff for a friendly unit.
2: 24" S5 AP3 assault 1 blast
3: +1s and Rage buff
4: Focused Witchfire roll a die and add LD's. If tied, target -3I. If psyker is higher, take Psychic Shriek-style wounds equal to difference.
5: Focused Witchfire targeting enemy non-vehicle. If successful, you make a shooting attack with them as if you owned them.
6: WC2/WC3 Summon: Either summon a modest amount of GSC units or an unreasonable amount of GSC units, equipped with ANY UPGRADES available to them.
Relics of the Cult
Icon of the Cult: Friendly units within 12" have furious charge and reroll morale/pinning, models in same unit have +1A. Seems to be separate from the other various icons and banners the cult can take.
Dagger of Swift Sacrifice: Exchange all attacks for 1 poison 2+ Instant Death.
Scourge of Distant Stars: IN a challenge, opponent must pass T test before any attacks can be made. If they fail they take a wound with no saves of any kind and are -1I.
Staff of Subterranean master: Shooting attack 18" S2 Ap- Assault 10/Ignore Cover/Rending
Sword of the Void's Eye: S+1 AP3 reroll to hit and to wound rolls of 1 and wound rolls of 6 are instant death.
The Crouchling: Extra Familiar, also grants 1 extra psychic power at start of game.
Warlord Traits
1. Stealth
2. Friendly untis within 12" have counter attack
3. Move through cover and Assault Grenades
4. IWND 5. All models in detachment use Warlord's LD 6. Choose result when you use Cult Ambush for warlord and his unit (!!!!)
Unit Overview
Infantry
GSC features 5 basic infantry units, each having their own role in the army and none really standing out as terrible, which is cool!
Neophytes: same cost as a guardsmen squad
FOC: Troops 10-man squad minimum, 20-man max
EITHER up to 2 models may take Heavy Mining Equipment (Heavy Stubber, Mining Laser,
Seismic Cannon) OR 2 models may form a Neophyte Heavy Weapons Team (Heavy Bolter,
Mortar, Autocannon, Lascannon for same prices as AM platoons)
Up to 2 models may take Special Weapons (Flamer, Grenade Launcher, Webber)
One model may take a Cult Icon (+1WS)
One model may upgrade to a squad leader, the squad leader may exchange his CCW for a
power maul or power pick, and may take a bolt pistol or web pistol
May take Goliath or Chimera as DT.
Analysis: A highly versatile unit, these culty fellows seem to be the disposable razor of the GSC arsenal. I can see numerous good ways to field them, but I would tend towards a Goliath truck or chimera if not ambushing, and no transport if ambushing. For the first build, skip the heavy weaponry, but for the second you can absolutely get use out of it as plenty of Ambush table results don't require you to move. Shotguns, banner, and melee squad leader are also a big consideration, because assault is much more of an option for these squads than their loyal AM cousins. If I were running Goliath cultists, I would go either for close up (flamers, banner, melee sarge, shotguns) or arms-length (lasguns/autoguns and webbers). And for infiltrators, I would strongly consider seismic cannons and grenade launchers, as infiltrating into the sides or rear of an unsuspecting vehicle is going to be something you really want to try to do with these dudes.
Seismic cannons seem to be the standout heavy weapon. Multiple shots to offset BS3, a special rule that resolves any to-wound or pen roll of a 6 at AP1, and the ability to take 2 per squad makes this a powerful option. The only AM heavy weapon team you should really consider is the Autocannon, as all the rest have the same overinflated cost the AM pays for them. The reason you may want it over the seismic cannon is for insurance against awkward 1-3 results on the Ambush table leaving you out of reach of enemy units.
Web Weaponry has the "Cocooned" special rule: The AP value of the weapon is equal to the
S characteristic of the target. This is a bit of an oddball, a small blast weapon with modest strength and range, but given the fairly lackluster special weapon options avaiable to neophytes, I can see it having fairly common usage in anti-infantry squads.
Overall Rating: 6/10. Will likely suffer the same problems AM squads do, but somewhat offset by their capability to be annoying via cult ambush.
Purestrain Genestealers: Same cost as Codex: Tyranid Stealers
FOC: Elites 5-man squad minimum, 20-man squad max
Gain 5++, Stealth, Cult Ambush, and +1A when compared to 'nid dex genestealers
Any model may take Scything Talons for +3pts
Gain Furious Charge if joined by a patriarch, but may only be joined by a Patriarch.
Genestealers may be back in a big way with these buffs. The sinister gribblies grab a slew of new rules and their own formation, the First Curse, which pairs a max sized unit with a Patriarch. Interestingly, though the Goliath and Rockgrinder explicitly forbid four-armed passengers, the Chimera has no such prejudice, so if you want to store your aliens aboard a tank turn 1 you can. But I wouldn't. The clear winner in terms of how to field your 'stealers is probably "stuff them into a GSC Decurion any way possible" because Stealth+Shroud turn 1, and the capability to infiltrate or Cult Ambush goes a long way to getting them into combat. I'd favor minimum sized squads in the Decurion over a First Curse just because of the points investment to get a random buff in the formation, but they can work either way.
Overall Rating: 7/10, just because they may be overshadowed by other troop options. but for genestealer lovers, Purestrains are the bee's knees.
Acolyte Hybrids: Cost Khorne's Favorite Number
FOC: Troops 5-man squad minimum, 20-man squad max
Any model may take a hand flamer in exchange for his autopistol
For each 5 models in the squad, 2 may echange their ccw and rending claw for one of the
following:
-Demo Charge
Or 32 flavors of powerfist! Yes, the Saw, Drill, and Cutter are all basically powerfists. The Saw is a chainfist, likely making it more valuable than the other 2, but you only get 1 per box so you may use the others as well.
One Acolyte may take a Cult Icon for +1WS
One model may be an Acolyte Leader, which may take a Bonesword or Lash
Whip and Bonesword for a meltabomb more.
May take a Goliath truck as DT.
Though they lost Fearless from the time of DWO, the acolytes gained some sweet-ass anti-armor options. And boy oh boy are there plenty of reasons to use them, chief among them that they're required in most formations. They seem to shine most in the Demolition Claw formation (which gets them tank hunters, yay) and the Subterranean uprising (Infiltrate and roll-2-pick-1 on the CUlt Ambush table) but they're also a significant chunk of the hybrid-centric core formation for the GSC Decurion. If they're in a CAD, a Goliath is probably the way to go, but otherwise it's likely unnecessary.
Rating: 8/10 just because they're somewhat overshadowed in pure effectiveness by their cousins the
Metamorphs: 1 point more than Acolytes each
FOC: Elites 5-man squad minimum, unknown maximum
Metamorphs come base swapping the CCW that hybrids get with a Metamorph Talon (+1WS), and they may take several upgrades that buff their basic stats. Also: these upgrades are all "model equipped with" weapons, meaning you don't lose rending if you want to use them.
-Second metamorph talon (+1 additional WS) free
-Crushing Claw (+2S) for a couple points
-Metamorph Whip (+3I) for one more point than claw
The standout here is the Claw, which gives you a S6 Rending Blender o' goodness for 2 points less than your basic Genestealer
Overall rating: 10/10. Use 'em as much as you can, and try to get them Infiltrate so you can Cult Ambush them in. But be prepared to do a lot of convertng to get those claws, as the box only comes with 1 of course.
Aberrants: Same price as DWO FOC: Elites Minimum size 4, max size 10.
They're exactly the same as they were in DWO. Luckily, no formation requires them, but some can add them. It definitely seems like GW is trying to de-emphasize them, and it's unknown if a kit is coming.
Overall rating: 3/10. Probably the weakest thing in the codex. But in a codex lacking lots of good ways to deal with AV14 vehicles and the like, you may want to include some hammer dudes in a Subterranean uprising.
Acolyte Iconward: 10pts cheaper than a Primus. Similar stats, but less wounds/attacks.
FOC: HQ
Comes with Autopistol Rending Claws and Sacred Cult Banner
Banner grants any GSC models within 12" 6+ FNP, or if they have FNP they get +1 to their
FNP.
May take Artifacts of the CUlts.
Rating: 5/10. The banner buff is way less exciting than the Primus or Patriach's buffs. Take him if you're bringing the Decurion Core formation, and I'd give him a miss for one of the three others otherwise.
Comes with needle pistol, Toxin Injector (poison 4+ when using his Rending Claw),
Bonesword (AP3 S:User, to wound roll of 6 has Instant Death), Rending Claw. May take
Sacred Relics of the Cults.
Special Rules Cult Ambush, Hatred, Infiltrate, Return to Shadows, Unquestioning Loyalty.
Grants Hatred to any GSC unit within 12".
Overall Rating: 8/10. A great way to add infiltrate to a big squad you want to grant Cult Ambush in a CAD, and also features in what is possibly the best formation, the Subterranean uprising. Went from very "meh" in DWO to quite good with the free rules and stat buffs he got, especially unquestioning loyalty, which lets him go to town on far more expensive enemy characters with no fear of getting splattered.
Genestealer Patriarch: Cost 18 Meltabombs
FOC: HQ
Comes with ML1, Broodmind Biomancy and Telepathy disciplines.
Grants Fearless to all GSC units within 12"
May purchase ML2 and up to 2 Familiars.
Overall Rating: 9/10. Bug Daddy himself does not dissappoint. He was good in DWO, he's not quite the army-wise fearless monster now, but still very very powerful. His psychic power access is awesome (especially with the addition of Biomancy). He favors Broodmind a bit less than the magus IMO, but there's not really a "wrong" choice. Worth taking if you run any kind of GSC force.
Genestealer Magus: Same base cost as a 5-man acolyte squad.
FOC: HQ
Comes with Force Staff and Autopistol
has Adamantium Will and grants it to any GSC unit within 12"
Access to Broodmind, Telepathy, Biomancy
Can purchase ML2 for +25, up to 2 Familiars for +5pts each, as well as Relics of the
Cults.
Overall Rating: 7/10. Definitely your go-to when running a small allied GSC force, his biggest drawback is the "one of each HQ per decurion" restriction preventing lots of psychic dice from hitting the table. But in a CAD? Go nuts! Magi everywhere! Broodmind is a great discipline and this guy is the cheap buffmeister made to use its powers. The biggest consideration is where to hide him so he can do his thing without getting killed, as GSC is not the home of many super-durable units.
Goliath: Cost 10 meltabombs
FOC: Fast Attack 11/10/10 Open-Topped Transport Capacity 10
Ignores Crew Shaken/Stunned results on a 4+
Armed with a Heavy Stubber and Autocannon
Overall rating: 4/10. Like a taurox, but they cut the top off. An important tool for an assault army, but not a terribly exciting one. Also, somewhat overshadowed by the power of Cult Ambush for small squads. The formation featuring it, "Deliverance Broodsurge" is possibly the worst the dex has to offer, so that's not great. And explosions are really going to suck for any unit you stick in it.
Rock Grinder: 1 Psychic ML more than the Goliath
FOC: Heavy Support 12/10/10 Transport Capacity 6
Ignores Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned on a 4+
Armed with Heavy Stubber, Torrent Heavy Flamer (can swap for a mining laser or seismic cannon) and Grinder
Grinder adds +D6 strength to Rams and +1 to Vehicle damage rolls, and when tank shocking
units must make an Init test or take D3 S10AP2 hits, Death or Glory causes an additional
D3 hits.
Overall Rating: 7/10. Thats a bit more like it! Sadly not a dedicated transport option, so it's very awkward to fit into the Decurion. But its formation, the Demolition Claw, grants it tank hunter and grants tank hunter to a bunch of hybrids (as well as some kind of derpy Demo-Charge buff but who cares). Kind of an awkward transport except for something like an all-hand flamer hybrid squad, but definitely a fun vehicle to play around with thanks to the torrent flamer and rock grinder.
Sentinels, Armored Sentinels, Chimeras: All identical to AM versions.
Chimeras (FOC: Fast Attack) cost 13 meltabombs, AV12/10/10 transport capacity 12. 2 models may fire out the back hatch, but passengers can also control the two lasgun arrays on each side of the tank (which are 3 lasguns each) for some extra S3 firepower. As for guns, the main turret can be a multilaser, heavy bolter, or heavy flamer, and the hull gun can be heavy bolter or heavy flamer, which can be swapped for free.
Scout Sentinels (FOC: Fast Attack) cost 5 meltabombs base, 10/10/10 open-topped walkers with Outflank. They come stock with a Multilaser, and can swap to a Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Lascannon, Autocannon, or Missile Launcher. Most of the time you want to run them with Multilasers to keep them cheap and try to go for some sneaky rear armor values on the outflank, but they rarely amount to more than a distraction.
Armored sentinels (FOC: Fast Attack) have identical weaponry, a base cost of 8 meltabombs, and for that they get 12/10/10 closed-topped, but lose Outflank.
rating: 3/10. Mostly taken in the "neophyte cavalcade" formation, which requires them, and grants the sentinels Cult Ambush which might be hilarious, but otherwise pretty lame. The best reason to use them is to get into GSC with models you already have.
Leman Russ:
FOC: Heavy Support
Only russes available are the base Russ kit, no Demolisher variants. I would only take one in a Neophyte Cavalcade where you have to. Probably an Exterminator with Meltas to take advantage of the Outflank it gets.
Battlecannon: S8 AP3 ordnance large blast. Pretty poor now that russes have lost their old rule Lumbering Behemoth, which allowed them to fire ordnance weaponry and regular weaponry. Now that ordnance makes all other guns Snap Shoot, Battlecannons tend to be less used.
Eradicator: S6 AP4 Ignores Cover large blast. sometimes seen, and might be good for GSC as they lack Ignores Cover anywhere else.
Exterminator: 2x Twin-Linked Autocannons. This is probably the most common standard LR variant you see. If you run him in a Neophyte Cavalcade, you might want to Outflank him with some Multimelta Sponsons to blow up some vehicles.
Vanquisher: S8 AP2 Armorbane. This might look like the go-to anti armor russ, but after a few games of that one. BS3. Shot, youll start to see why Vanquishers are rarely taken outside the totally different IA1 forgeworld variant. Save yourself the pain, and reach for 4 twin-linked S7 shots instead.
rating: 2/10, it's a leman russ, it costs too much, does too little, dies too easy.
Benefits: All units that dont have Infiltrate gain it, any unit that has infiltrate gets Shrouded turn 1. Any time a unit comes back from reserves via Cult Ambush, it replenishes D6 casualties. Also standard Warlord Trait reroll.
Restriction: Primus, Magus, and Patriarch are unique 1 per detachment (they are otherwise not unique in standalone formations or CAD)
NOTE: A model must have both Return to Shadows AND cult ambush to make use of the D6 casualties. Briefly after this was leaked, much was made of Sentinels (who gain Cult Ambush) replenishing casualties. But they lack Return from Shadows, and can only make use of Cult Ambush once when they initially come on from reserves. Sadly, this means sentinels cannot replenish casualties.
Overall Rating: 6/10. The big benefits are definitely in the Auxiliaries here (and in providing the Decurion benefits on top of the Auxiliary benefits) but luckily the cores are pretty points-light. However, don't expect your core to be providing a lot of your oomph like in a Necron or SM decurion.
Any non-vehicle unit in this formation that is within 6" of at least one other unit from
the same formation +1 to Leadership and WS
All unit in this formation have the furious charge while they are within 24" of the
Iconward. in addition, the range of inconward's Nexus of Devotion will effect 24"
instead of 12" (6+ feel no pain and +1 if a model already has FNP)
Overall Rating: 5/10. Definitely not a formation you'd be likely to take outside the Decurion, but actually despite the high number of units this is of a comparable cost to the Neophyte Cavalcade, since GSC units are relatively cheap at base sizes. Still, I can see the Cavalcade being a more common choice just because of the monetary cost involved with getting an Iconward+4 boxes of acolytes just to come to the table, and because Acolytes are far better served in a Demolition Claw or Subterranean uprising. However it is worth noting that this formation is one of only two ways to work a goliath rockgrinder into the decurion detachment.
All vehicles in the formation gain Outflank, except for Scout Sentinels which gain Cult Ambush.
Overall Rating: 5/10. Very light benefits, but a fairly cheap buy in for a decurion at ~400 points. Outflanking leman russes particularly something like a melta-exterminator might be pretty funny, though they'll likely die early. The eradicator is also an interesting option, due to GSCs lack of ignores cover options even compared to regular base guard.
Command:
Broodcoven
1 Primus
1 Patriarch
1 Magus
The 3 models must be deployed as a single unit, though they may (together) still join friendly units like ICs. The broodcoven and any unit have the following special rules while each member is alive. Patriarch: Fleet. Magus: Counter-attack. Primus: Preferred Enemy.
Overall Rating: 2/10. Ever heard the saying "don't spend it all in one place"? In the decurion, this locks you out of buying any more of these three guys, which denies some of the best benefits that the auxiliary formations can provide. And the benefits of this formation are...questionable at best. Even joined to say, a huge unit of acolytes or metamorphs, GSC are unlikely to compete with screamerstars, wolfstars, etc and really all you're doing is lumping all your eggs in one basket. I really am not seeing this one.
First Curse
1 Patriarch
1 unit of 20 Purestrains
You roll a D6 at the beginning of the game and gain 1 benefit.
Overall Rating: 6/10. Here's your only-genestealer formation for Tyranid players to plug the new buffed stealers into their 'nid lists. The benefits are good, but random, which any person who owns possessed knows can be annoying. Myself? I'm more likely to just bring Genestealers in via their "1 squad of purestrains" aux choice and the next command slot, but some players may like bringing a unit of superstealers (who might FINALLY get assault grenades!!!)
Cult Leader Thing
1 Iconward or Primus or Magus or Patriarch
Want to include an HQ? Here ya go. No benefits.
Auxiliaries:
Doting Throng
0-1 Magus
3 units of any combination of Neophytes or Acolytes
Benefits: Magus may re-roll failed blessing powers targeting units from this formation. The Magus' unit rerolls all to-hit rolls in close combat, and he gains a 12" Zealot bubble.
Overall rating: 8/10. Pretty sweet benefits and a good way to get buffed-up neophytes/acolytes into your list if you want to run them through the Decurion. The zealot bubble in particular is quite nice. The biggest drawback is probably that other formations offer better benefits for the acolytes.
Demolition Claw
2-4 Acolytes
2-3 Rockgrinders
Benefits: Tank Hunter for everyone, any model that uses a Demo Charge within 6" of a Rockgrinder rerolls scatter and gets an additional Charge on a die roll (4+ I think?)
Overall Rating: 7/10. The only way I can see to get Rockgrinders into the decurion thankfully comes with a simple but useful benefit in the form of Tank Hunter. The demo charge stuff? ....not for me thanks. GW seems to think one single chance to harm something coupled with a chance to absolutely wipe your whole squad is worth a HUGE number of points. For the cost, I could just get a powerfist which would kill tanks just as dead, especially with TH!
Subterranean uprising
0-1 Primus
0-3 Aberrants
2-5 Acolytes
1-3 Metamorphs
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion. This formation is just awesome, giving a huge chunk of your army a really good chance at great positioning and even turn 1 charge right out of reserve. The closest thing to an auto-include in the decurion, and definitely worth considering as a standalone formation.
Deliverance Broodthingy
2-5 units of Neophytes with Mandatory Goliath DT's
Benefits: You may disembark from your Goliath even if you move at Cruising speed, units that do so take dangerous terrain test. Goliath's auto-pass their "ignore crew shaken/stunned" ability.
Overall rating: 4/10. Very counterproductive to the decurion benefits, as they can't make use of their infiltrate to Cult Ambush. Pretty rigid. Not great benefits by itself. I'm really personally hoping the Doting Throng turns out to be better.
Cult Mutants: 1 unit of Metamorphs or Aberrants, no benefits.
Purestrains: 1 unit of Purestrains, no benefits.
Brood Brothers: 1 unit of Leman Russes or Sentinels, no benefits.
Thanks for posting! Few edits: iirc you can take a rockgrinder squad in the brood cycle too. Subterranean I believe was 2-4/5 acolytes, 1-3 metas. Doting throng benefits are out there somewhere, from memory they were something like: Reroll blessings that fail on units in the formation for the magus, his unit gets reroll to hit in melee permanently, and then I think another combat related benefit as an aura? Maybe furious charge or +1A or something? In any case, it seemed like you'd benefit most from having acolytes in there, but ofc they may get better benefits elsewhere.
I'm going to wait for a bit more confirmation on those before I update the main post, just because I am sure I don't have a complete memory and I want to keep them tentative until I update them. I don't recall any non-mandatory elements to the brood cycle, for instance, but I could be wrong.
Also, it should be clarified that the warlord trait result of 6 is you can choose the result for the cult ambush for the warlord and whatever unit the warlord is attached to only. As written in OP, it sounds as though that applies to the entire army, which isn't the case.
dan2026 wrote: Do we know what Leman Russ variants the Cult get access to?
As I wrote, only the LR variants present in the basic box, so no Demolisher, Punisher, or.. is it the Executioner?
I think it's battlecannon, vanquisher, exterminator, eradicator.
Also interesting: they get guard equipment, but NOT any guard equipment that isnt present in the basic cadian kit.
Now, you can consider that a fluffy "they dont have the rarer/specialized stuff cus they're just PDF" or you can consider it a "No models, no rules" situation because GW packaged them with the basic russ kit and basic cadians.
dan2026 wrote: Do we know what Leman Russ variants the Cult get access to?
As I wrote, only the LR variants present in the basic box, so no Demolisher, Punisher, or.. is it the Executioner?
I think it's battlecannon, vanquisher, exterminator, eradicator.
Also interesting: they get guard equipment, but NOT any guard equipment that isnt present in the basic cadian kit.
Now, you can consider that a fluffy "they dont have the rarer/specialized stuff cus they're just PDF" or you can consider it a "No models, no rules" situation because GW packaged them with the basic russ kit and basic cadians.
Cool I'm wondering what would be some good anti tank for the cults.
I'm thinking the Exterminator for long range anti-light vehicle.
Then Acolytes with Rock saws for up close.
There might be other better answers but without the book I am not sure.
dan2026 wrote: Do we know what Leman Russ variants the Cult get access to?
As I wrote, only the LR variants present in the basic box, so no Demolisher, Punisher, or.. is it the Executioner?
I think it's battlecannon, vanquisher, exterminator, eradicator.
Also interesting: they get guard equipment, but NOT any guard equipment that isnt present in the basic cadian kit.
Now, you can consider that a fluffy "they dont have the rarer/specialized stuff cus they're just PDF" or you can consider it a "No models, no rules" situation because GW packaged them with the basic russ kit and basic cadians.
Cool I'm wondering what would be some good anti tank for the cults.
I'm thinking the Exterminator for long range anti-light vehicle.
Then Acolytes with Rock saws for up close.
There might be other better answers but without the book I am not sure.
I will definitely probably be rocking the double-seismic double-nade neophyte squad for some anti-tank goodness when I'm playing in the decurion and they get to deploy via cult ambush. The seismic cannon resolves at AP1 when you score a 6 on pen roll, and fires considerable numbers of shots. Go for rear armor, and try to pop those vehicles.
Other than that I agree, anti-tank is going to be rending metamorphs and acolytes with maybe one of the powerfist-equivalents added in. Especially in the Demolition Claw - rending doods with tank hunter will take out most tanks.
Keep in mind, with everything and their brood brother having rending in this army, you need a lot less dedicated AT than you normally would.
I think you got the second Broodmind psychic power wrong, it was S5 not 3 which makes it identical to the blast profile of the Tyranid Warp Blast power, only for Warp Charge 1 instead of 2 (it should never have been WC2, not remotely good enough).
Also, can you not write as if everybody knows the Astra Millitarum codex inside out, I've never gone through it before and until now I've never had a reason to ("meltabomb less than a Taurox" means absolutely nothing to me).
Imateria wrote: I think you got the second Broodmind psychic power wrong, it was S5 not 3 which makes it identical to the blast profile of the Tyranid Warp Blast power, only for Warp Charge 1 instead of 2 (it should never have been WC2, not remotely good enough).
Also, can you not write as if everybody knows the Astra Millitarum codex inside out, I've never gone through it before and until now I've never had a reason to ("meltabomb less than a Taurox" means absolutely nothing to me).
Fixed both into the universal language of meltabombs. Sorry about the Taurox comparison, I just used it because the two vehicles are very nearly identical ruleswise, I'm fairly certain you can arm a taurox with autocannon and heavy stubber and it's the same AV.
Also added brief descriptions of Sentinels, Chimeras, and the Russes available.
So, a tactics question. Having never played a MEQ army, I'm entirely unclear on how the hidden powerfist tends to play out. Personally, whilst all the mining equipment with high str and low AP looks very tasty on paper, I balk at giving an 8pt 1-wound, t3 5+ model a piece of equipment that costs as much as, if not more than half a 5 man acolyte squad. Is it really worth it, and does it ever pay off? How can you stop a 5-man squishy unit just getting splatted?
Benlisted wrote: So, a tactics question. Having never played a MEQ army, I'm entirely unclear on how the hidden powerfist tends to play out. Personally, whilst all the mining equipment with high str and low AP looks very tasty on paper, I balk at giving an 8pt 1-wound, t3 5+ model a piece of equipment that costs as much as, if not more than half a 5 man acolyte squad. Is it really worth it, and does it ever pay off? How can you stop a 5-man squishy unit just getting splatted?
Well, there are a couple things these guys have going for them.
First, the model with the Fist is not a character. While this means vs shooting you cant take LOS checks, you also can't get challenged out and killed before you can swing.
Second, they've got some solid survivability tools. They've got an open-topped transport to increase their threat range and keep them safe from most small arms with that AV11 front face, as well as Cult Ambush, Shroud turn 1, and access to good defense buffs in telepathy and biomancy.
Would I throw a fist equivalent weapon on a basic acolyte squad? Maybe not. But I would strongly consider putting one in a ten-man squad, or a squad joined by a character, or a squad in something like the Subterranean Uprising where they have a very solid chance of getting that sweet Infiltrate+Charge with the Cult Ambush table.
I would update the Doting Throng's rating, as the bonuses are apparently really good if we're hearing things correctly. You want to take a Magus anyway, so for him to grant a Zealot bubble allows for "G2G/Fearless" shenanigans, while rerolling blessings for the formation is useful; every little bit of WC efficiency helps.
The Demo Claw looks too gimmicky for its own good. If the Rockgrinders got Cult Ambush, then this would be a 9/10 but otherwise...eh.
Great start, though your ambush table is slightly off, it should read:
Ambush Table: 1: Come on from deployment edge as normal
2: Outflank
4: Infiltrate 9" from enemy if seen, 6" from enemy if out of LOS 4: Infiltrate 6" from the enemy, seen or not
5: Infiltrate 6" From enemy, you get a free shooting action or run if armed with no ranged weapons
6: Infiltrate 3" from enemy, you may charge even if it's turn 1 or you've arrived from reserves
minionboy wrote: Great start, though your ambush table is slightly off, it should read:
Ambush Table: 1: Come on from deployment edge as normal
2: Outflank
4: Infiltrate 9" from enemy if seen, 6" from enemy if out of LOS 4: Infiltrate 6" from the enemy, seen or not
5: Infiltrate 6" From enemy, you get a free shooting action or run if armed with no ranged weapons
6: Infiltrate 3" from enemy, you may charge even if it's turn 1 or you've arrived from reserves
Thank you, though does it specifically say "Infiltrate" or does it say "Deploy" or "Set up?" I ask for purposes of whether we are affected by servo-skulls.
minionboy wrote: Great start, though your ambush table is slightly off, it should read:
Ambush Table: 1: Come on from deployment edge as normal
2: Outflank
4: Infiltrate 9" from enemy if seen, 6" from enemy if out of LOS 4: Infiltrate 6" from the enemy, seen or not
5: Infiltrate 6" From enemy, you get a free shooting action or run if armed with no ranged weapons
6: Infiltrate 3" from enemy, you may charge even if it's turn 1 or you've arrived from reserves
Thank you, though does it specifically say "Infiltrate" or does it say "Deploy" or "Set up?" I ask for purposes of whether we are affected by servo-skulls.
Doesn't seem to be affected by Servo Skulls, nothing in the rules for Cult Ambush uses the word "Infiltrate" other than saying if you have Infiltrate, you can roll on the table instead. Infiltrating is mentioned in the #6 result, in the context of letting you know that "unlike other units that infiltrate or arrive from reserve, the ambushing unit can charge...". All of the table results are just described as "set up the ambushing unit anywhere on the table that is more than 6" from an enemy model.", it doesn't say anything like "set up following rules for deployment", so perhaps it should say:
Ambush Table: 1: Come on from own deployment edge
2: Same as Outflank
4: Set up anywhere 9" from enemy if seen, 6" from enemy if out of LOS 4: Set up anywhere 6" from the enemy, seen or not
5: Set up anywhere 6" from enemy, you get an immediate free shooting attack or may run if armed with no ranged weapons
6: Set up anywhere 3" from enemy, you may charge even if it's turn 1 or you've arrived from reserves
EDIT: The Cult Insurrection also gives you +1 to your reserves and -1 to your opponents reserves. Overall, it has a pretty massive set of bonuses.
So working it out the base cost of the formation detachment is around 500 to 600 hundred right? because a there is a single HQ as command and the brood cycle is fairly cheap with no upgrades, doesn't that make it one of the cheapest in the game?
My worry is have we enough to deal with death stars and super heavy/gargantuan creatures.
My friend has just got the craft world Eldar codex so thinking will rending be enough to bring wraith knight down, he's also knows I favour combat and so is taking 10 WG with D-scythes which I'm not sure how to take on as charging doesn't seem viable unless I throw a unit away.
oldone wrote: So working it out the base cost of the formation detachment is around 500 to 600 hundred right? because a there is a single HQ as command and the brood cycle is fairly cheap with no upgrades, doesn't that make it one of the cheapest in the game?
My worry is have we enough to deal with death stars and super heavy/gargantuan creatures.
My friend has just got the craft world Eldar codex so thinking will rending be enough to bring wraith knight down, he's also knows I favour combat and so is taking 10 WG with D-scythes which I'm not sure how to take on as charging doesn't seem viable unless I throw a unit away.
Throwing away a 50-point unit of Neophytes is well worth it, if it means getting a unit of purestrains into combat safely.
buddha wrote: Seems like the first curse formation is a perfect addition to pretty much any tyranid army. No reason to take normal genestealers ever again.
For sure. And if you make the patriarch from that formation your warlord, you get a 1/3 chance of a guaranteed turn 1 charge with 2 bad boys.
I would just worry that losing shrouded turn one would be a big deal since they are faction GSC and not faction Tyranids, and therefore not subject to the Malanthrope's shrouding bonus (not that it would be that far up to cover them anyhow most of the time)
1 Iconward, 3 units of Acolyte Hybrids, 2 units of Neophyte Hybrids, 1 unit of Hybrid Metamorphs, 1 units of Purestrain Genestealers, 0-1 Arberants, and 0-1 Goliath Rockgrinders. I.E., there is another way to get Rockgrinders in the Decurion. Oh,and you can bring in some Arberants too.
Subterranean Uprising is as follows:
0-1 Primus, 1-3 units of Hybrid Metamorphs, 2-4 units of Acolyte Hybrids, and 0-3 units of Aberants. Just a small change in the numbers, but it makes a major difference... Should also note that it says if any unit from this formation is joined by A Primus. So yeah, if you bring in more Primuses somehow, you can get the extra rolls for multiple squads.
Doting Throng is as follows:
0-1 Magus, and 3 units of any combination of Neophyte Hybrids and Acolyte Hybrids. Yes, you can bring the Acolytes too, which mean you can fit the Magus in with them for the ever-re-roll in combat.
Deliverance Broodsurge is as follows:
2-5 Neophyte Hybrids in Goliath Trucks. Yeah, its a lot smaller...
It should also be noted that a lot of squads have the Goliath as a DT, so its not just available in the Broodsurge. Plus, the benefits of the Broodsurge will be pretty great for last-turn objective grabbing, assuming the trucks are still alive. 12" move, +6" disembark, +d6" run...that'll most certainly let you get to an objective fast.
On top of that, Leman Russ sponsons and Armored Sentinels are the Cult's only access to plasma, This should not be overlooked. ALS Eradicator with Plasmasponsons is expensive, but it also a pie-plate monter. And Sentinels might not be amazing, but because you don't really care about them makes them a perfect base for plasma due to gets hot. Plus, a 2-3 man squad of plasma Sentinels is a great, cheap DISTRACTION CARNIFEX.
EDIT: Another fun thing to note is that this army benefits greatly from the Munitorum Containers. Imagine an Acolyte squad with TORRENT hand-flamers. Plus, getting to litter your own cover everywhere will be helpful when infiltrating, and maybe giving your tanks cover as they move up the field...
buddha wrote: Seems like the first curse formation is a perfect addition to pretty much any tyranid army. No reason to take normal genestealers ever again.
For sure. And if you make the patriarch from that formation your warlord, you get a 1/3 chance of a guaranteed turn 1 charge with 2 bad boys.
I would just worry that losing shrouded turn one would be a big deal since they are faction GSC and not faction Tyranids, and therefore not subject to the Malanthrope's shrouding bonus (not that it would be that far up to cover them anyhow most of the time)
It's actually a 1/2 chance because even if you fail to roll a 6 for the Warlord trait twice, you still get the 1/6 chance of rolling the result you want on the Ambush table straight up.
zamerion wrote: So what core formation you think will be better?
I know that brood cyrcle has better rules, but this + subterranean suprising are thousand of miniatures spamming acolytes : /
with neophyte cavalcade, you have a little punch of shoot, always is good.
What do you think?
Considering both cost roughly the same amount, it'll really be up to your play style. Both have their merits. Cult Ambushing Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers is going to hurt. Likewise, Acolytes with WS6, Furious Charge, and a 6+ FNP are pretty nasty...
Personally, I'm going to try to fit in both (alongside a Subterranean Uprising), bit if I had to pick one, I'd go with the Neophyte Cavalcade. I can get tons of Acolytes/Metamorphs elsewhere (read: Subterranean Uprising), and despite not deploying via Cult Ambush, the Outflank it gets makes up for that. I mean, who doesn't like Exterminators with Multi-meltas popping up behind them? And what about Cult Ambushing a full squad of Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels? Two squads? You have a 50/50 chance of showing up in a great spot for burninating, and otherwise it's just a 75 point squad, so it's not a huge waste. But hey, if you can pull it off, you can certainly fry some fish-heads/bucket-heads/anything else, and soften things up for your Acolytes and Metamorphs to charge into. And as said...that squad is costing you 75 points. If it fails miserably, so be it.
I'm going with the cavalcade basically because I want to stuff my melee threats into the Uprising, which I consider the strongest formation when taken in the Decurion thanks to the turn 1 Shrouded.
My list is likely going to be a cavalcade, Throng with neophytes for ambushing heavy weapons and one squad of acolytes for the melee buff, a big subterranean uprising and maybe 10 pueestrains joined by a Patriarch. Then I'll add a CAD with more neophytes, a second primus for more Uprising goodness, and maybe a rock grinder if I want one.
Because this is gsc, pointing that out I'm comfortably within 1850
0-1 Primus
0-3(?) Aberrants
3-5(?) Acolytes
1-2(?) Metamorphs
I can't remember exactly the unit numbers and the image has been removed, but I am pretty confident of the minimums
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion.
Only units with native Infiltrate get Shroud from the Insurrection detachment. Which would be only the Primus of the above (who of course gives it to the unit he joins).
0-1 Primus
0-3(?) Aberrants
3-5(?) Acolytes
1-2(?) Metamorphs
I can't remember exactly the unit numbers and the image has been removed, but I am pretty confident of the minimums
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion.
Only units with native Infiltrate get Shroud from the Insurrection detachment. Which would be only the Primus of the above (who of course gives it to the unit he joins).
Having infiltrate through the model's rules and gaining infiltrate through the formation doesn't make a difference when it comes to the main detachment. "all units gain infiltrate" is a benefit of the formation which should mean all units in the formation count as units with native infiltrate when it comes to gaining Shrouded from the detachment.
0-1 Primus
0-3(?) Aberrants
3-5(?) Acolytes
1-2(?) Metamorphs
I can't remember exactly the unit numbers and the image has been removed, but I am pretty confident of the minimums
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion.
Only units with native Infiltrate get Shroud from the Insurrection detachment. Which would be only the Primus of the above (who of course gives it to the unit he joins). [/quote
Decurion gives shroud to units that have infiltrate. With the subterrean units gains infiltrate, so with the decurion, they gain shroud.
0-1 Primus
0-3(?) Aberrants
3-5(?) Acolytes
1-2(?) Metamorphs
I can't remember exactly the unit numbers and the image has been removed, but I am pretty confident of the minimums
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion.
Only units with native Infiltrate get Shroud from the Insurrection detachment. Which would be only the Primus of the above (who of course gives it to the unit he joins).
Actually, the Subterranean Uprising gives all the units in it Infiltrate. Because they'd them have the Infiltrate from this formation atop the Infiltrate from the Decurion, they'd get the Shrowded on turn 1.
I think this looks really strong on first impressions! So many MSU opportunities, and a horde that almost entirely sets up just 9 inches away from the enemy! I'd say the metamorphs with +2S sound like the most dangerous thing in the book - they'll reliably kill anything from infantry to GMCs and super heavies in CC. Who needs expensive powerfist options when these guys exist?
How does this sound for a list idea?
Brood cycle - 425pts
Iconward 65pts Acolytes 40pts Acolytes 40pts Acolytes 40pts Neophytes with autocannon 60pts Neophytes with autocannon 60pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Purestrains 65pts
Subterranian uprising -245pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Acolytes 40pts Acolytes 40pts
Subterranian uprising - 245pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts Acolytes 40pts Acolytes 40pts
Doting throng 415pts Magus with ML2 65pts 16 neophytes with autocannon 110pts (magus here to keep him safe) 20 neophytes 120pts 20 neophytes 120pts
Cult mutants 5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts 5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts 5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts 5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Tyranid CAD 315pts (approx.)
Flyrant with devourers
Mucolid Mucolid Mucolid Mucolid Mucolid
The plan would be for all the GSC to cult ambush save the Magus and his unit, which would infiltrate behind the main battle line - ideally near to the 20-strong neophyte units to turn them into fearless tarpits for anything that can't be reliably killed. The flyrant engages air targets and the mucolids act as a dangerous annoyance.
I think it'd be pretty nasty for a lot of lists to face on non kill-point missions! It's got 170 models in your face turn one. Most of which are comfortable engaging wraithknights, riptides and imperial knights with their S6 rending, while making a nasty mess of anything smaller. Imperial deathstars would likely be a problem, but they are for everyone these days...
DoomMouse wrote: I think this looks really strong on first impressions! So many MSU opportunities, and a horde that almost entirely sets up just 9 inches away from the enemy! I'd say the metamorphs with +2S sound like the most dangerous thing in the book - they'll reliably kill anything from infantry to GMCs and super heavies in CC. Who needs expensive powerfist options when these guys exist?
How does this sound for a list idea?
Brood cycle - 425pts
Iconward 65pts
Acolytes 40pts
Acolytes 40pts
Acolytes 40pts
Neophytes with autocannon 60pts
Neophytes with autocannon 60pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Purestrains 65pts
Subterranian uprising -245pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Acolytes 40pts
Acolytes 40pts
Subterranian uprising - 245pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Acolytes 40pts
Acolytes 40pts
Doting throng 415pts
Magus with ML2 65pts
16 neophytes with autocannon 110pts (magus here to keep him safe)
20 neophytes 120pts
20 neophytes 120pts
Cult mutants
5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
5 metamorphs with crushing claws 55pts
Tyranid CAD 315pts
Flyrant with devourers
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
The plan would be for all the GSC to cult ambush save the Magus and his unit, which would infiltrate behind the main battle line - ideally near to the 20-strong neophyte units to turn them into fearless tarpits for anything that can't be reliably killed. The flyrant engages air targets and the mucolids act as a dangerous annoyance.
I think it'd be pretty nasty for a lot of lists to face on non kill-point missions!
Here would be my sole concern with this setup: A large number of your units are NOT going to end up setting up near the enemy, and from experience with the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, you end up using up optimal infiltrate locations pretty quickly and wind up setting units up in very suboptimal positions just because of your board footprint.
And that's just with a dozen 32mm bases on the board, two units of twenty plus countless metamorphs and acolytes and all that might prove to be a headache.
Don't forget that the Subteranean Uprising doesn't disallow transports, and that those transports would have to deploy using Cult Ambush. That might be damn fun. ;-)
0-1 Primus
0-3(?) Aberrants
3-5(?) Acolytes
1-2(?) Metamorphs
I can't remember exactly the unit numbers and the image has been removed, but I am pretty confident of the minimums
Benefits: All units gain Infiltrate and MUST deploy via Cult Ambush. When Cult Ambushing, units roll 2 dice and pick 1, roll 3 and pick 1 if the unit is joined by the Primus.
Overall Rating: 10/10. They also gain turn 1 shroud in the decurion.
Only units with native Infiltrate get Shroud from the Insurrection detachment. Which would be only the Primus of the above (who of course gives it to the unit he joins).
"all units gain infiltrate" is a benefit of the formation
Ah for some reason I missed the line directly under Special Rules where it said Infiltrate, nice!
Here would be my sole concern with this setup: A large number of your units are NOT going to end up setting up near the enemy, and from experience with the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, you end up using up optimal infiltrate locations pretty quickly and wind up setting units up in very suboptimal positions just because of your board footprint.
And that's just with a dozen 32mm bases on the board, two units of twenty plus countless metamorphs and acolytes and all that might prove to be a headache.
Yeah, I can see what you mean - hadn't realised that the metamorphs/acolytes came with 32mm bases, it'd increase their footprint a lot. Seems a bit excessive to have 8pt models based on 32mm bases but oh well. I guess the enemy's likely to make your job a little easier by frantically trying to kill as many critters as possible? And even if you had to cluster them up together it wouldn't be so bad as blasts wouldn't hit a lot of models due to the 32mm bases?
Maybe it's not as good in practice as it looks in theory, but I'm sure it'd still be fun to play, and pretty terrifying for opponents. I guess it could REALLY matter who gets first turn haha
Here would be my sole concern with this setup: A large number of your units are NOT going to end up setting up near the enemy, and from experience with the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, you end up using up optimal infiltrate locations pretty quickly and wind up setting units up in very suboptimal positions just because of your board footprint.
And that's just with a dozen 32mm bases on the board, two units of twenty plus countless metamorphs and acolytes and all that might prove to be a headache.
Yeah, I can see what you mean - hadn't realised that the metamorphs/acolytes came with 32mm bases, it'd increase their footprint a lot. Seems a bit excessive to have 8pt models based on 32mm bases but oh well. I guess the enemy's likely to make your job a little easier by frantically trying to kill as many critters as possible? And even if you had to cluster them up together it wouldn't be so bad as blasts wouldn't hit a lot of models due to the 32mm bases?
Maybe it's not as good in practice as it looks in theory, but I'm sure it'd still be fun to play, and pretty terrifying for opponents. I guess it could REALLY matter who gets first turn haha
minionboy wrote: Don't forget that the Subteranean Uprising doesn't disallow transports, and that those transports would have to deploy using Cult Ambush. That might be damn fun. ;-)
I wouldn't rely on that, especially since "Cannot" rules override "Must" rules. For example: A Mayhem Pack Helbrute that rolls a 6 for Crazed! to "Must Charge" still cannot Charge out of Deepstrike.
On another note, one thing I'm wondering is whether it would be worth running a "secondary" CAD so you can have a non-Patriarch Warlord? Have a Magus and, have him roll on the Strategic table and hope to roll Master of Ambush just so you can Shroud several additional units and play a more defensive ambush army. The ability to Cult Ambush would allow you to do stuff like Infiltrate a 40-point unit of Acolytes directly in front of a unit of Thundercav and block their movement for a round, among other things, or allow you to grab Maelstrom objectives far more effectively than a normal gunline would allow. Toss in a Flyrant CAD and some optional ADLs for additional shooting support.
minionboy wrote: Don't forget that the Subteranean Uprising doesn't disallow transports, and that those transports would have to deploy using Cult Ambush. That might be damn fun. ;-)
I wouldn't rely on that, especially since "Cannot" rules override "Must" rules. For example: A Mayhem Pack Helbrute that rolls a 6 for Crazed! to "Must Charge" still cannot Charge out of Deepstrike.
Even if that's the case, you can still take transports, and they can still infiltrate. ;-)
EDIT: I'm also not sure why you're worried about "Cannot" business. There is nothing in Cult Ambush that says vehicles cannot use the rule... Your "cannot" wording if anything supports that the units can deploy inside the transport while the vehicle uses Cult Ambush from the Subterranean Uprising requirement.
If that's the case, and you can bring the DT's with the Subterranean Uprising, and they can Infiltrate, then this would be a pretty strong tactic versus some armies. Infiltrate up and start real close. Hopefully you van effectively screen your units. Then you can use them to tank shock enemies, hopefully making them flee. Then charge the fleeing units with your Acolytes/Metamorphs for a quick clean-up.
And honestly, RAW, it really does look like you can Infiltrate/Cult Ambush the trucks. I mean, the whole formation gets it, so the trucks would be allowed. The only thing that might make it seam like they can't is because they themselves don't have the Cult Ambush rule. Even then, they can still Infiltrate, which is pretty nice.
minionboy wrote: Don't forget that the Subteranean Uprising doesn't disallow transports, and that those transports would have to deploy using Cult Ambush. That might be damn fun. ;-)
I wouldn't rely on that, especially since "Cannot" rules override "Must" rules. For example: A Mayhem Pack Helbrute that rolls a 6 for Crazed! to "Must Charge" still cannot Charge out of Deepstrike.
Even if that's the case, you can still take transports, and they can still infiltrate. ;-)
EDIT: I'm also not sure why you're worried about "Cannot" business. There is nothing in Cult Ambush that says vehicles cannot use the rule... Your "cannot" wording if anything supports that the units can deploy inside the transport while the vehicle uses Cult Ambush from the Subterranean Uprising requirement.
The issue is that none of the vehicles have the Cult Ambush special rule, so they simply cannot do it.
"Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule (pg 96)." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
Also, the Subterranean Uprising does at the very least give all the transports Infiltrate, so even if you cannot Cult Ambush them, you can Infiltrate them, and they would be Shrouded if taken as part of a Cult Insurrection. Still totally worth taking.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule..." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
No, they cannot set up using a rule they don't have. Formations that allow units which don't normally Deep Strike to deploy that way, explicitly give them the Deep Strike special rule, just like this Formation gives units Infiltrate.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule..." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
No, they cannot set up using a rule they don't have. Formations that allow units which don't normally Deep Strike to deploy that way, explicitly give them the Deep Strike special rule, just like this Formation gives units Infiltrate.
I understand that it may not be the way you read the rules, but it seems pretty clear when you remove any bias. Just look at Gate of Infinity, it doesn't grant them the Deep Strike rule, the unit just "arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike". No ability I've found that lets a unit Deep Strike in this way actually grants the unit the Deep Strike rule. Similarly, the Time to Rise Up rule doesn't give them Cult Ambush (no argument there) but it does say the unit is set up using the Cult Ambush special rule.
Like I've said, even if that's not the case, you can still take Transports, which will be able to Infiltrate regardless of how you want to argue the rules... Which is still awesome.
The formation grants the vehicles infiltrate, but NOT cult ambush. If the formation requires all units to deploy via cult ambush, then no model lacking that rule can be taken in that unit.
See: Every formation that currently exists that requires the models to deep strike. You can't bring a DT rhino in a skyhammer and magically have that rhino deep strike onto the board next to the assault squad.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule..." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
No, they cannot set up using a rule they don't have. Formations that allow units which don't normally Deep Strike to deploy that way, explicitly give them the Deep Strike special rule, just like this Formation gives units Infiltrate.
I understand that it may not be the way you read the rules, but it seems pretty clear when you remove any bias. Just look at Gate of Infinity, it doesn't grant them the Deep Strike rule, the unit just "arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike". No ability I've found that lets a unit Deep Strike in this way actually grants the unit the Deep Strike rule. Similarly, the Time to Rise Up rule doesn't give them Cult Ambush (no argument there) but it does say the unit is set up using the Cult Ambush special rule.
Like I've said, even if that's not the case, you can still take Transports, which will be able to Infiltrate regardless of how you want to argue the rules... Which is still awesome.
"If you remove any bias..." What are you talking about? I'm obviously in this thread because I'm playing Genestealer Cults, if anything my bias would push me towards agreeing with you, but I don't allow bias to sway my interpretation of rules. It's very clear that the Codex did not intend you to ever Ambush with vehicles, that's why they don't have the Cult Ambush rule, and no amount of rules lawyering a Formation themed around infantry crawling up out of sewers is going to allow you to do it.
the_scotsman wrote: The formation grants the vehicles infiltrate, but NOT cult ambush. If the formation requires all units to deploy via cult ambush, then no model lacking that rule can be taken in that unit.
See: Every formation that currently exists that requires the models to deep strike. You can't bring a DT rhino in a skyhammer and magically have that rhino deep strike onto the board next to the assault squad.
The Skyhammer Annihilation force has restrictions in place which stop you from having a Rhino, so it's not a problem. Also, I'm not saying it gives them the Cult Ambush rule, I'm saying the formation forces them to set up following the Cult Ambush rule, as described by the "Time to Rise Up" rule. After re-reading "An Uprising in the Making" it seems that they do not gain shrouded, but oh well.
the_scotsman wrote: The formation grants the vehicles infiltrate, but NOT cult ambush. If the formation requires all units to deploy via cult ambush, then no model lacking that rule can be taken in that unit.
See: Every formation that currently exists that requires the models to deep strike. You can't bring a DT rhino in a skyhammer and magically have that rhino deep strike onto the board next to the assault squad.
The Skyhammer Annihilation force has restrictions in place which stop you from having a Rhino, so it's not a problem. Also, I'm not saying it gives them the Cult Ambush rule, I'm saying the formation forces them to set up following the Cult Ambush rule, as described by the "Time to Rise Up" rule. After re-reading "An Uprising in the Making" it seems that they do not gain shrouded, but oh well.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule..." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
No, they cannot set up using a rule they don't have. Formations that allow units which don't normally Deep Strike to deploy that way, explicitly give them the Deep Strike special rule, just like this Formation gives units Infiltrate.
I understand that it may not be the way you read the rules, but it seems pretty clear when you remove any bias. Just look at Gate of Infinity, it doesn't grant them the Deep Strike rule, the unit just "arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike". No ability I've found that lets a unit Deep Strike in this way actually grants the unit the Deep Strike rule. Similarly, the Time to Rise Up rule doesn't give them Cult Ambush (no argument there) but it does say the unit is set up using the Cult Ambush special rule.
Like I've said, even if that's not the case, you can still take Transports, which will be able to Infiltrate regardless of how you want to argue the rules... Which is still awesome.
"If you remove any bias..." What are you talking about? I'm obviously in this thread because I'm playing Genestealer Cults, if anything my bias would push me towards agreeing with you, but I don't allow bias to sway my interpretation of rules. It's very clear that the Codex did not intend you to ever Ambush with vehicles, that's why they don't have the Cult Ambush rule, and no amount of rules lawyering a Formation themed around infantry crawling up out of sewers is going to allow you to do it.
I don't mean bias towards an army, I mean bias towards the previous ideas that vehicles shouldn't be allowed to use Cult Ambush under any circumstance, despite us not having the full rules in our hands (which I do now have). Nothing in the Cult Ambush rule itself prevents vehicles, and there is even a formation which explicitly gives the rule to a unit of vehicles. The Subterranean Uprising doesn't give the units Cult Ambush, I totally agree with that, but the rules for how to deploy the units say you follow the rules for Cult Ambush. I would never argue that Gate of Infinity gives a unit the Deep Strike rule, but I would agree that it allows them to set up anywhere on the table following the rules for Deep Strike.
There is big significance in how these rules are worded, and for example, it would mean a transport which was forced back into ongoing reserves (like by that Eldar power) wouldn't get to use Cult Ambush when it came back on, since it doesn't have the rule.
the_scotsman wrote: The formation grants the vehicles infiltrate, but NOT cult ambush. If the formation requires all units to deploy via cult ambush, then no model lacking that rule can be taken in that unit.
See: Every formation that currently exists that requires the models to deep strike. You can't bring a DT rhino in a skyhammer and magically have that rhino deep strike onto the board next to the assault squad.
The Skyhammer Annihilation force has restrictions in place which stop you from having a Rhino, so it's not a problem. Also, I'm not saying it gives them the Cult Ambush rule, I'm saying the formation forces them to set up following the Cult Ambush rule, as described by the "Time to Rise Up" rule. After re-reading "An Uprising in the Making" it seems that they do not gain shrouded, but oh well.
Why wouldn't they gain Shrouded?
Because An Uprising in the Making applies to non-vehicle units only.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You've got purestrains listed as troops, when they're elites. :(
At the time of writing, I had not actually paid attention to the FOC slots of any of the units. I listed them as "troops" in the sense of "infantry units" which I can see being confusing.
If you know the FOC slots for the various units, I'll happily add them in. With this pre-codex version, some of the specifics I'm not sure about haven't been added in yet.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You've got purestrains listed as troops, when they're elites. :(
At the time of writing, I had not actually paid attention to the FOC slots of any of the units. I listed them as "troops" in the sense of "infantry units" which I can see being confusing.
If you know the FOC slots for the various units, I'll happily add them in. With this pre-codex version, some of the specifics I'm not sure about haven't been added in yet.
Headquarters Acolyte Iconward
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
Do you mean the heavy mining weapons that Neophytes get, or the melee weapons carried by the Neophytes?
Acolytes heavy mining weapons are a Heavy Stubber (1 meltabomb), Mining Laser (3 Meltabombs) or Seismic Cannon (4 meltabombs). The Acolyte melee weapons are 4 bombs for the drill, 5 for the other two.
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking acolytes with the rock drill/saw are traps. Their benefit is in destroying armour, but just standard acolytes take a HP off anything AV11 and below on a 6, and can hurt up to AV13 (14 if you've got furious charge off). Moreover, metamorphs with claws hit str6 rending, and will take HPs off AV13 and below on 6s automatically (again 14 if FC). Since I'm inclined to agree with other posters that these guys are probably the best units in the codex, they are probably perfectly adequate to address any issues with armour if filling out a subterranean uprising with them.
Acolytes, on the other hand, will be better at dealing with very high toughness units like Wraithknights, since 6s are auto-wounds for both them and metamorphs with claws. That's also the reason why I didn't list the cutters with the other two PF equivalents - it could have a niche in hoping to instant kill nasty monstrous creatures that would otherwise take a fair bit of wearing down.
Benlisted wrote: The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking acolytes with the rock drill/saw are traps. Their benefit is in destroying armour, but just standard acolytes take a HP off anything AV11 and below on a 6, and can hurt up to AV13 (14 if you've got furious charge off). Moreover, metamorphs with claws hit str6 rending, and will take HPs off AV13 and below on 6s automatically (again 14 if FC). Since I'm inclined to agree with other posters that these guys are probably the best units in the codex, they are probably perfectly adequate to address any issues with armour if filling out a subterranean uprising with them.
Acolytes, on the other hand, will be better at dealing with very high toughness units like Wraithknights, since 6s are auto-wounds for both them and metamorphs with claws. That's also the reason why I didn't list the cutters with the other two PF equivalents - it could have a niche in hoping to instant kill nasty monstrous creatures that would otherwise take a fair bit of wearing down.
I was just thinking about that regarding Acolytes earlier... I think 2 saws in a unit of 10 isn't an awful choice, as it increases your reliability of taking out armor (especially tough armor), but I would definitely avoid the full compliment of weaponry. I would argue that the cutter is even less important, since rends all wound on a 6 anyhow, and the odds of getting that instant death are very slim.
Aside from hoping for 6's followed by 5-6's with rend to scratch armor 13, how do people plan on taking down Imperial Knights? I'm thinking a combination of outflanking russes with multi-meltas, and Acolytes in a Demolition Claw, might be the best choices, though obviously less than ideal.
This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:
Cult Insurrection
The First Curse Patriarch Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Subterranean Uprising Primus x1 Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.
MagicJuggler wrote: "Units with this special rule" indicates that the unit itself must have the rule and that it's not an "army-wide" special rule. Barring Scout Sentinels in a Neophyte Calvacade, none of the vehicles in the codex have the Cult Ambush rule.
Correct, but the wording of "Time to Rise Up" says, "All of the units in a Subterranean Uprising must Infiltrate during deployment, and set up using the Cult Ambush special rule (pg 96)." Which would imply that they set up using that rule, even if they don't normally have it. Just like a unit can perform a Deep Strike if a special rule forces or allows them to, even if they do not have the Deep Strike rule.
Also, the Subterranean Uprising does at the very least give all the transports Infiltrate, so even if you cannot Cult Ambush them, you can Infiltrate them, and they would be Shrouded if taken as part of a Cult Insurrection. Still totally worth taking.
If the parent unit can infiltrate the dedicated transport can too. it is in the big rule book. So with the ambush rule you can infiltrate the truck.
I'm looking at it fro the thought of "can I cover all my bases absolutely?"
Sure, Rending on Acolytes, Steelers, and Metamorphs is going to wreck tanks and high-armour units alike, bit it's unreliable. A saw or two with shred through it with more reliability. What am I gonna do to stop a raging Walker? Or, hell, a Knight? I'd rather be able to poke holes in it reliably, then sign for several fruitless combat chunking away at it while it stomps my guys into the dirt.
I'm definitely thinking about a unit of 10-15 Acolytes with max saws to take on Super-heavies and Gargantuans. A big block.of Acolytes is surely to ruin a Wraithknight or Knights day through shear number of attacks alone, but I'd rather ruin it's day reliably.
I think a mixture of whips and claws on the Metamorphs is a good idea. Initiative 7 is nothing to sneeze at and can safely clear out a lot of enemies without giving them a chance to strike back, which is great as Metamorphs are not particularly resilient. Claws are great for cracking tougher shells, but not everything needs S6 to be killed.
Double talon does seem like a definite lame duck choice though, unfortunately. I suppose reducing GEQ to WS2 with psychic powers means you're hit on 5s, but meh, doesn't seem worth it.
krakentendrilswarm wrote: Double talon does seem like a definite lame duck choice though, unfortunately. I suppose reducing GEQ to WS2 with psychic powers means you're hit on 5s, but meh, doesn't seem worth it.
With a Cult Icon in the squad, you'll be WS 7, so you'll be hit on 5s at that point by GEQs anyways. And an Icon is only 2 meltabombs, so it's probably worth taking...
minionboy wrote: This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:
Cult Insurrection
The First Curse Patriarch
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Subterranean Uprising Primus x1
Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.
minionboy wrote: This is kind of where my mind is going, comes to 1850 on the nose:
Cult Insurrection
The First Curse Patriarch
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x5 Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Subterranean Uprising Primus x1
Metamorphs x10 Whips, Icon, 5 Hand Flamers
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw
Kind of self explanatory I suppose. Decent amount of bodies, most of which will be shrouded turn 1, and can put out a lot of high strength attacks.
Looks quite scary to face. Don't want to know how much $$$ that is going to cost though
1695 pts. Leaves you with 55/155 pts for 1750/1850.
15x5 acolytes (12 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
10x5 Metamorph (9 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
Then all the rest. Basic idea is to just keep rolling for that 6, if you don't get a six, deploy back field and try to pop out and then back in hoping for the 6s. With 25 units rolling on 2d6, you should get 6-10 pretty reliably. Double and triple them up on their assaults, you should be hitting units with anywhere from 20-60 rending attacks at a time. Deathstar units can be hit from multiple sides at once, splitting up their counter attacks and forcing wounds across multiple sides.
If the patriarch rolls 6 on warlord traits, you can use other units to eat overwatch to let his mini-deathstar roll in. Against actual deathstars, you can use small units to tie deathstar up from multiple sides to reduce number of attacks and plow his unit in hard at one point.
Cheesy list, but really accentuates the strength of the codex, which is hitting hard out of reserves, and using the d6 regen for backfield units.
could drop one subterranean formation to ally in some nids, for some psychic dice and AA.
Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).
My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:
Brood Cycle
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
10 neophytes, 1 ML 10 neophytes, 1 ML 5 metamorphs w claws
5 purestrains
iconward
Subterranean Uprising
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
primus
First Cursed
patriarch
20 purestrains
Cult leader
magos, crouchling
CAD patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
1500 on the nose.
Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.
Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!
1695 pts. Leaves you with 55/155 pts for 1750/1850.
15x5 acolytes (12 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
10x5 Metamorph (9 with 2d6 on cult ambush)
Then all the rest. Basic idea is to just keep rolling for that 6, if you don't get a six, deploy back field and try to pop out and then back in hoping for the 6s. With 25 units rolling on 2d6, you should get 6-10 pretty reliably. Double and triple them up on their assaults, you should be hitting units with anywhere from 20-60 rending attacks at a time. Deathstar units can be hit from multiple sides at once, splitting up their counter attacks and forcing wounds across multiple sides.
If the patriarch rolls 6 on warlord traits, you can use other units to eat overwatch to let his mini-deathstar roll in. Against actual deathstars, you can use small units to tie deathstar up from multiple sides to reduce number of attacks and plow his unit in hard at one point.
Cheesy list, but really accentuates the strength of the codex, which is hitting hard out of reserves, and using the d6 regen for backfield units.
could drop one subterranean formation to ally in some nids, for some psychic dice and AA.
I'm liking this idea a lot more than I thought I would... You have 21 units rolling 2D6 (3 Subterranean Uprisings), plus 7 more rolls from the Brood Cycle, and then the First Curse. If you're rolling for a 6 on the Patriarch's warlord trait, you've got a total ~40% chance to end up charging first turn with them (including the odds of not getting the warlord trait, but naturally rolling a 6 on Ambush). Plus 21 units with a 30.555% chance of appearing turn 1, and another 7 rolls... It really wouldnt' be unlikely for you to have 8-9 units of Acolytes/Metamorphs charging on turn 1, on top of 20 stealers and a pissed off patriarch... Might not win every game, but would be hilarious! I would probably add a saw in half of the units of acolytes to bring it up to 1850.
Benlisted wrote:Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).
My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:
Spoiler:
Brood Cycle
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
10 neophytes, 1 ML 10 neophytes, 1 ML 5 metamorphs w claws
5 purestrains
iconward
Subterranean Uprising
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
5 metamorphs w claws
primus
First Cursed
patriarch
20 purestrains
Cult leader
magos, crouchling
CAD patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
1500 on the nose.
Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.
Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!
If you're going for a Deathstar, you could just take a spare Lords of the Cult formation to attach to your First Cursed, though I'm not thinking GSC will make that great of a death star.
Benlisted wrote: Have a somewhat similar list to you written Trace - but I'm a lot of acolytes/metamorphs off, and 125 of them is even further!! I think you're right that that is an extremely potent list - hell, min-maxing I'd even be inclined to drop the First cursed and add another Uprising and a Primus (160 acolytes....).
My idea was to soup up the First Cursed deathstar as best I could:
Cult leader
magos, crouchling
CAD patriarch ghosar
magos
5 acolytes
5 acolytes
1500 on the nose.
Main different thing here is the inclusion of a CAD for extra warp charges - we have 9 in total, which should give you reasonable odds of getting invis, endurance and hopefully Iron Arm/Warp Speed on the Patriarch. Once you get the key buffs, you can roll on Broodmind for the awesome powers there.
Ghosar is a bit of a wildcard, solely in there to give HnR to the mini-deathstar - obviously with him you have to hope for invis. Could equally be another magos though!
Can we use Ghosar as part of a normal CAD for GSC? Good way to add another beatstick to the First Curse and also grab a magos for more psychic dice. Good ideas.
I'm liking this idea a lot more than I thought I would... You have 21 units rolling 2D6 (3 Subterranean Uprisings), plus 7 more rolls from the Brood Cycle, and then the First Curse. If you're rolling for a 6 on the Patriarch's warlord trait, you've got a total ~40% chance to end up charging first turn with them (including the odds of not getting the warlord trait, but naturally rolling a 6 on Ambush). Plus 21 units with a 30.555% chance of appearing turn 1, and another 7 rolls... It really wouldnt' be unlikely for you to have 8-9 units of Acolytes/Metamorphs charging on turn 1, on top of 20 stealers and a pissed off patriarch... Might not win every game, but would be hilarious! I would probably add a saw in half of the units of acolytes to bring it up to 1850.
Agreed. A handful of saws here and there could make a big difference. Two units with saws rolling a 6 can probably do some damage to a Knight, or wreck shop on some broadsides.
Can we use Ghosar as part of a normal CAD for GSC? Good way to add another beatstick to the First Curse and also grab a magos for more psychic dice. Good ideas.
Yeah, he's still an HQ choice so no reason why not! Shame he's only str5 as opposed to 6 like the new patriarch, you get a familiar as compensation though. The question is whether, if you attach him to a unit with cult ambush and return to the shadows - can the unit make use of that rule even though he doesn't have them?
Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...
Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.
rollawaythestone wrote: Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...
Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.
If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.
One ask i did to myself is what would happen if you join another character like a magos or patriarch to a Subterranean Uprising unit?
Rolling 2 dices or only one for that unit?
rollawaythestone wrote: Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...
Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.
If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.
Well, because some of us (me) care about the cool models. To each their own.
Sorta tempted to throw my pile of shinies here and see what you glorious gents can make of it. Can't do much myself til Saturday when I can read through proper and pick up my stuff.
Spoiler:
Patriarch
20 Purestrains
15 Purestrains
Primus
6 Metamorphs
10 Acolytes
8 Acolytes
8 Acolytes
Magus
10 Neophytes
10 Neophytes
10 Neophytes
10 Neophytes
10 Neophytes
2 Chimera
Leman Russ
Sentinel
Pretty certain I have at least another 10-15 Genestealers on sprues still as well.
And for those wondering, this is this weekend's shopping list. I essentially already have 12 DWO Acolytes, 20 Neophytes in total (Leader with Power Weapon/Bolt Pistol, 2 Grenade Launchers, 2 Mining Lasers, Icon), the Magus and Primus and a Space Hulk Broodlord and Stealers galore.)
Spoiler:
2 boxes of Neophytes
4 boxes of Acolytes
Start Collecting: Astra Militarum (plans to convert Commissar into a Acolyte leader)
Sentinel
Nobody likes the idea of broodcoven + acolyte iconward (icon of the cult) in a unit of 20 methamorps with crawsing claws from subterranean uprisng ?
This is thousand better than the first curse, (5atacks with S7 on charge, hatred, and preferent enemy..)
And maybe adding patrarch ghosar to hit and run.
ONE IMPORTANT QUESTION PLEASE.
I have the book in spanish, and in the subterranean uprising, said that if a unit of this formation is joined by THE primus, the unit roles 3 dice, this mean that only the primus of the formation gives this bonus?
"A primus". So it looks like RAW that it doesn't have to be the Primus from that formation. Or even that detachment. Which is interesting... Although remember if going solely the 'decurion' detachment that you only get one primus anyway.
River Zora wrote: "A primus". So it looks like RAW that it doesn't have to be the Primus from that formation. Or even that detachment. Which is interesting... Although remember if going solely the 'decurion' detachment that you only get one primus anyway.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
Yeah they are a real glass hammer overall. If you don't kill what you need dead in the ambush phase then you're going to get hit back hard, even by guardsmen.
There's also a lot of randomness in their better abilities (natural 6 on the ambush table etc.).
Overall I think they're solid, but require a lot of finesse to use well. Pairing them with a Guard army seems like the strongest option, giving the IG army some forward elements that can tie up and/or disable key enemy positions and letting the gun line do its work.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
Some quick napkin math suggests that a 20-strong unit of metamorphs with claws will manage to down an IK, WK, or SS with invuln in a single round of combat, if they get some minimal buffs they should easily have (FC, +1WS, etc). However, 2 of the saws should do close to 4 HP to an IK, or with hatred 5.3 or so - and iirc each acolyte should average 0.185 or so HP. So actually, I think a 5 man unit with two saws stands a solid shot - would ofc go for a bigger unit to make it more sure and protect the saws though.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Can the demolition claw bring neophytes rather than acolytes? You mention mining lasers and seismics in the claw, and those can only be taken on neophytes.
As to the question: My go-to is going to be seismic cannon/nade launcher neophyte squads, and acolytes with 1x anti tank weapon per squad of 5. I'm more concerned with things like Screamerstars than imperial knights.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Can the demolition claw bring neophytes rather than acolytes? You mention mining lasers and seismics in the claw, and those can only be taken on neophytes.
As to the question: My go-to is going to be seismic cannon/nade launcher neophyte squads, and acolytes with 1x anti tank weapon per squad of 5. I'm more concerned with things like Screamerstars than imperial knights.
Sadly no, I meant the variants mounted on the Goliath Rockgrinders themselves.
On paper it seems like GSCs can handle GMCs and super heavies just fine due to acolytes, metamorphs, and purestrains. Basically mass rending with buffs solves the problems.
I'm thinking armies like Necrons which may just be able to weather the glass cannon nature kg GSCs will be a tough match up. I also think daemons in general can be a hard counter since they are similar stat wise and far more mobile.
Way too soon to tell but the rules could really help balance out riptide spam and eldar (webbers anyone?) Which would be a welcome meta shift.
buddha wrote: On paper it seems like GSCs can handle GMCs and super heavies just fine due to acolytes, metamorphs, and purestrains. Basically mass rending with buffs solves the problems.
I'm thinking armies like Necrons which may just be able to weather the glass cannon nature kg GSCs will be a tough match up. I also think daemons in general can be a hard counter since they are similar stat wise and far more mobile.
Way too soon to tell but the rules could really help balance out riptide spam and eldar (webbers anyone?) Which would be a welcome meta shift.
I would say MC's and GMC's aren't a concern really because of that, but I don't like relying on rends needing 6's, then a 5-6 to glance... That means it takes 3x as many rends to cause a HP of damage to AV13 (and generally cannot scratch AV14), than it takes to cause a wound to MC/GMC.
I'm not sure how you figure Deamons are more maneuverable, GSC gets to effectively deepstrike, without scattering, and can do it multiple times per game to be wherever you need them.
The problem with the saws is that cost near triple than the acolyte :(
i dont know if its better carry them in small units (1 saw for each unit) or in a big unit. (6/8 in a unit of 20)
Im sure that im goint to have a big unit with heroes to buff it (broodcoven + iconward) but i dont know if acolytes (with saws) or metamorfs(with claws)
zamerion wrote: The problem with the saws is that cost near triple than the acolyte :(
i dont know if its better carry them in small units (1 saw for each unit) or in a big unit. (6/8 in a unit of 20)
Im sure that im goint to have a big unit with heroes to buff it (broodcoven + iconward) but i dont know if acolytes (with saws) or metamorfs(with claws)
What do you think?
I'm really digging the Demolition Claw with 2-3 units of 5/6, each unit gets one demo charge and one saw. I think Tank Hunter is worth it, especially since it affects the Rockgrinder too, so can re-roll to pen with those Seismic Cannons (AP1 if they get a 6 to pen, which can cause quite a few HP of damage to a LoW with a bit of luck). Even in units of 10, I would still probably only take 2 saws, in even bigger units (like 20) I might step that up to 3-4.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Not exactly, the ram says it adds d6 to the strength, since strength cannot surpass 10 you have to roll one die seperate to add to the strength of the hit 7+d6 maxing out at 10. Then you roll to penetrate, this makes them much less reliable. Still awesome, but I wanted to point out that difference since you were suggesting they have the equivalent to armorbane which is incorrect.
Best answer for the points are acolytes with saws. Where you purchase them can vary but s8 armorbane ap2 with 3 attacks a piece on the charge will make short work of an superheavy.
rollawaythestone wrote: Whats the thoughts with leaving a majority (3) Metamorphs unupgraded so the unit is majority WS 5, and so you have bullet sponges? Granted, you lose two Metamorphs and you aren't majority 5 anymore...
Been thinking about upgrades for the GSC and the metamorphs in particular. All claws all the time? What a pain given that they are 1 to a box.
If every metamorph in the army has a claw then who cares how they are modeled really. Once you start mixing loadouts between units or the same unit and THEN WYSIWYG is very important, but like I said, if every one in the list has the same upgrade only a douche would care when GW is giving you 1 in a $4o box.
Well, because some of us (me) care about the cool models. To each their own.
Actually my suggestion was based primarily on the cool models, I think a mix of biomorphs looks way sweeter personally and I kind of hate that derpy looking claw, it looks to crab like and not genestealer like enough for me. As you said though, to eat his own.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
Ohhhh yeah, been lurking (spying) and thinking about what ways GSC may fight against me. I didn't even think about Imperial Knights, how would GSC handle one of those? I suppose that they could potentially kite it around the table using the Cult Ambush rule, and perhaps even get some shots into the back armor using that rule as well. Otherwise a Knight may be problematic.
I've been looking for solutions and have come up with a few...
Goliath Rockgrinders, you'll be ramming at S7+2D6, so a decent chance to penetrate, which Ion Shields doesn't work against, and +1 damage helps to get that Explode result.
Acolyte Rock Saws will do plenty of damage
Demolition Claw giving Tank Hunter to the above units to re-roll pens with ramming, heavy mining lasers or heavy seismic cannons), Rock Saws, or even just re-rolls for those Rending Claws
Leman Russ Executioners with multi-melta sponsons, especially outflanking with the Acolyte Cavalcade. You could go with a vanquisher, but I hate the 50/50 chance of the main gun, maybe if it was AP1 I'd consider it
Generally speaking, I wouldn't want to rely on rends, since you'll need a 6 + 3 to glance an IK in melee... you have a 1/18 chance to glance, 1/36 after you factor in rolling to hit, 1/24 with the Cult Icon.
Not exactly, the ram says it adds d6 to the strength, since strength cannot surpass 10 you have to roll one die seperate to add to the strength of the hit 7+d6 maxing out at 10. Then you roll to penetrate, this makes them much less reliable. Still awesome, but I wanted to point out that difference since you were suggesting they have the equivalent to armorbane which is incorrect.
Best answer for the points are acolytes with saws. Where you purchase them can vary but s8 armorbane ap2 with 3 attacks a piece on the charge will make short work of an superheavy.
Ahh, good call, definitely not as good as 2D6, though Tank Hunters on the Demolition Claw funnily helps with that ram attack... No way to cause those D3 S10 Ap2 attacks to a walker though, is there? Booo...
Agree about the Acolytes, and while the saws might be expensive, the Acolytes themselves are cheap and have 2 attacks, which is awesome.
Yea I the demolition claw goliaths will ram very effectively.
I don't mind the cost of the upgrades on acolytes since this army is actually a nightmare to avoid taking too many models. Not suggesting a horde is by any means bad, but try getting a game into a 2-3 hour time frame with 30+ units all with special deployments and possible regens.... Ouch. I will gladly fork over for the upgrades since we have to points efficiency everywhere else and because honestly I don't think any of them are over priced. The only steep upgrade in the book for me are the demo charges and hilariously enough the way around that is to just summon a 10 man acolyte squad with 4 demo charges since they are free and waste a target.
Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
MagicJuggler wrote: Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
I wouldn't rely on them using their Mining lasers, if you're going to take them for tank hunting, it will be with a Heavy Seismic Cannon, giving you 3 S8 shots within 12", which is fine, you'll be wanting to get that close to either deliver Acolytes, or to ram anyhow.
I agree that their torrent flamers are nice, but they're kind of the last thing you need in the army, GSC has plenty of other ways to handle infantry, it's tanks that you need to punch. Rockgrinders may not be 100% ideal for the job, but they're the tool that's available.
I don't think the seismic cannon is an awful choice for rockgrinders - BS3 is a bummer but you can always take a crate for the ammo dumps to at least reroll 1s. That said, I would absolutely not rely on them for my tank hunting, or at minimum they'd be one in a toolbox of options for killing tanks.
What's annoying about the demo claw is that the rockgrinder isn't assault, so you don't really want the acolytes from the formation in it. I think the best bet, since neophytes don't fit either, is probably some brood cycle/doting throng acolytes with max hand flamers?
As a Tyranid player I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
N.I.B. wrote: As a Tyranid player I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
Well, they are more of an extension of IG than Tyranids... No Genestealer cultist has met a Tyranid, other than a Genestealer before, and the day they do meet the Tyranids in person, they're one step away from being food themselves. GSC spend much more time working with and infiltrating the Imperial Guard, than they do fighting alongside actual Tyranids.
MagicJuggler wrote: Regarding Rockgrinders, they're still fundamentally a BS 3 vehicle with no sort of Twin-Linking/Prescience and no "Fast" or other similar benefits. You have a unit that is effectively the same cost as a unit of (vacuum-wise) Tankbustas, and you have roughly the same degree of survivability too. 5 S8 BS 2 shots > 1 S9 BS 3 shot, and that still by itself isn't sufficient.
The problems with using it in its "intended role" as a tank destroyer are that it's a slow vehicle with short range and bad side armor; Vindicators seldom see the light of day and they have better range and durability as is!
The Rockgrinder's real role seems to be the fact that it looks to be the cheapest Torrent weapon in the game (Yes, I know that the Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch is cheaper, but he's not Relentless). Three Rockgrinders is still cheaper than 2 Hellhounds, and if you run them in Squadrons, you can maximize your Front Armor arc while being able to take advantage of multiple torrents. The actual Tank Hunter bonus should be viewed as just that, an incidental bonus to ramming that gives you some duality of purpose.
I wouldn't rely on them using their Mining lasers, if you're going to take them for tank hunting, it will be with a Heavy Seismic Cannon, giving you 3 S8 shots within 12", which is fine, you'll be wanting to get that close to either deliver Acolytes, or to ram anyhow.
I agree that their torrent flamers are nice, but they're kind of the last thing you need in the army, GSC has plenty of other ways to handle infantry, it's tanks that you need to punch. Rockgrinders may not be 100% ideal for the job, but they're the tool that's available.
But again, the Heavy Seismic Cannon's range is fairly limiting, and it locks you into running him as a "monotask" unit. 2 Autogoliaths are not that much more points-intensive than a Seismic Rockgrinder, while Neophytes with dual Mining Lasers are cheaper point-wise, and both options allow you to Infiltrate and operate at a superior range-band.
You have the option to move 18" early on, plowing through terrain before you create a zone of exclusion for any light infantry. You get to seriously threaten chaff units that would otherwise block off your own assault vectors or objective strikes, and force other armies to stay mounted up. The Rugged Construction Rule *does* give some minor resilience versus Grav, though that's a fringe bonus considering the paper-thin side armor.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
I actually disagree. If you put a saw (That's got 2d6 pen, yeah?) in every acolyte squad, you could very easily wipe any armor out in one round of combat. With 3 attacks on the charge per saw, you should be getting at least 1 pen per saw. With only 6 HP, you should mulch through a knight pretty reliably with 3-5 acolyte squads. That's not even considering metamorphs with the claw, s6 rending is vicious. Every 6 to pen is a 13 minimum. So, 6 hits is 1 hp, 12 attacks is 1hp. 3 models on the charge is 1hp.
Considering those units are under 80 pts with wargear considered, they're actually pretty good at wrecking superheavies. Hell, if what I've read is right, 5 metamorphs with claws will be like 55/60 pts, so 4 of those have a pretty solid shot at wiping a knight out in one round of combat.
Fliers and psykers are definitely going to be an issue if we play straight GSC. With only two psykers, who can't be duplicated per detachment, we're limited to a max of 4 levels. Of course, Nids can shore this weakness up easily with an allied CAD, as Zoes are some of the more cost efficient ML in the game, and flyrants also provide much needed anti-air.
I think one of our biggest weaknesses will be interceptor Tau with lots of smart missile systems. If GSC end up being popular enough, we might even end up seeing longstrike come into some lists, as his unlimited overwatch assistance could be really painful with TL Smart missiles.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys see as the main weaknesses of this army?
Im leaning towards low T, poor saves, average shooting in a shooting orientated edition?
I would say that Toughness is less relevant due to grav and destroyer weapons, plus a lot of armies bring so much S6/7 that it's not that big of a deal to be T3 instead of T4. I would say the biggest weakness of the army is handling multiple, high armor threats. Dealing with a Brass Scorpion is going to be hard, let alone handling an Imperial Knight or three.
I actually disagree. If you put a saw (That's got 2d6 pen, yeah?) in every acolyte squad, you could very easily wipe any armor out in one round of combat. With 3 attacks on the charge per saw, you should be getting at least 1 pen per saw. With only 6 HP, you should mulch through a knight pretty reliably with 3-5 acolyte squads. That's not even considering metamorphs with the claw, s6 rending is vicious. Every 6 to pen is a 13 minimum. So, 6 hits is 1 hp, 12 attacks is 1hp. 3 models on the charge is 1hp.
Considering those units are under 80 pts with wargear considered, they're actually pretty good at wrecking superheavies. Hell, if what I've read is right, 5 metamorphs with claws will be like 55/60 pts, so 4 of those have a pretty solid shot at wiping a knight out in one round of combat.
Fliers and psykers are definitely going to be an issue if we play straight GSC. With only two psykers, who can't be duplicated per detachment, we're limited to a max of 4 levels. Of course, Nids can shore this weakness up easily with an allied CAD, as Zoes are some of the more cost efficient ML in the game, and flyrants also provide much needed anti-air.
I think one of our biggest weaknesses will be interceptor Tau with lots of smart missile systems. If GSC end up being popular enough, we might even end up seeing longstrike come into some lists, as his unlimited overwatch assistance could be really painful with TL Smart missiles.
Getting 3-5 UNITS, not just models, into combat with a Knight will be no small feat, unless you are really good at rolling tons of 6's, and have the first turn... far from what I'd consider reliable to take on a Knight, let alone 2 or 3 of them. Knights move 12" and carry weapons that are quite good at wiping out small squads of Hybrids, plus usually have an army to support them.
I agree that Tau Interceptor will be annoying, but thankfully, the pre-game deployment using Cult Ambush wont trigger it, just later uses of it during the game, so I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Flyers will be a big issue, you will pretty much have to ally in Tyranids or IG if you want to handle them head-on. Leman Russ Exterminators might still be scary enough to make a Flyer jink, but that's about it. On the other-hand, maybe flyers wont be much of an issue, since you may be in combat with most of your army on turn 2. I was really pulling for GSC Hydras (and Wyverns), but we can't have it all, can we?
minionboy wrote: Getting 3-5 UNITS, not just models, into combat with a Knight will be no small feat, unless you are really good at rolling tons of 6's, and have the first turn... far from what I'd consider reliable to take on a Knight, let alone 2 or 3 of them. Knights move 12" and carry weapons that are quite good at wiping out small squads of Hybrids, plus usually have an army to support them.
I agree that Tau Interceptor will be annoying, but thankfully, the pre-game deployment using Cult Ambush wont trigger it, just later uses of it during the game, so I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Flyers will be a big issue, you will pretty much have to ally in Tyranids or IG if you want to handle them head-on. Leman Russ Exterminators might still be scary enough to make a Flyer jink, but that's about it. On the other-hand, maybe flyers wont be much of an issue, since you may be in combat with most of your army on turn 2. I was really pulling for GSC Hydras (and Wyverns), but we can't have it all, can we?
I mean, I'm only considering running GSC if I've got 20+ units ambushing at a time, so getting that many into combat shouldn't really be that large of a challenge. Knights' in general are a massive waste of points vs GSC except for smash attacks, and those require it to put itself in danger.
Good point about first deployment, but, still, the ignores cover en masse will be brutal. Fliers aren't all that scary, most people don't bring the weapons that threaten our types of units, we're probably going to be MSU so it'll be hard to not waste shots with overkill, and with our placement abilities, we can definitely strongly impact fliers' ability to get good targets. Flyrants, LOC and Nurgle DP using the flamer template would be rough, but again, with MSU they'll likely be mostly overkilling squads. If a 200-400 pt MC kills 60 pts of GSC troops a turn, good for them?
I just had a revelation... The Cult Insurrection gives all non-vehicle units in the army Infiltrate... Which means, any units you take dedicated transports for, could infiltrate in them. You will be >12" away, but you can still move turn 1. Mind Blown...
Here's another thought. The Demolition Claw doesn't say anything about requiring the Acolytes to deploy in the Rockgrinders, nor does it stop them from taking their Truck dedicated transports. So you could end up with some Tank Hunting Autocannon Goliath Trucks, loaded with tank hunting Acoloytes, and 2 tank hunting Rockgrinders to boot.
That all has me thinking something more like this:
The First Curse Patriarch x1 Level 2 Psyker
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Considering how important going first will be for this army, has anyone considered taking an callidus assassin? Seems to synergize well regardless. Are there any other options to help get first turn?
Fruzzle wrote: Considering how important going first will be for this army, has anyone considered taking an callidus assassin? Seems to synergize well regardless. Are there any other options to help get first turn?
Coteaz if you don't mind crucifying the fluff gods. Don't take any servo-skulls though if you plan on infiltrating.
minionboy wrote: I just had a revelation... The Cult Insurrection gives all non-vehicle units in the army Infiltrate... Which means, any units you take dedicated transports for, could infiltrate in them. You will be >12" away, but you can still move turn 1. Mind Blown...
Here's another thought. The Demolition Claw doesn't say anything about requiring the Acolytes to deploy in the Rockgrinders, nor does it stop them from taking their Truck dedicated transports. So you could end up with some Tank Hunting Autocannon Goliath Trucks, loaded with tank hunting Acoloytes, and 2 tank hunting Rockgrinders to boot.
That all has me thinking something more like this:
The First Curse Patriarch x1 Level 2 Psyker
Purestrain Genestealers x20
Neophyte Cavalcade Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Neophyte Hybrids x10 2 Webbers
Chimera Transport x1 2 Heavy Flamers
Leman Russ Exterminator x2 Multi-melta sponsons
Armored Sentinels x2 Autocannons
Demolition Claw Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Acolyte Hybrids x10 2x Heavy Rock Saw, Demolition Charges
Goliath Truck x1
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
Goliath Rock Grinder x1 Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges
That's a cool idea - but wouldn't the acolytes in the goliaths not be able to charge t1 due to infiltrating - and if so that defeats a lot of the purpose doesn't it?
Also, we've been missing one piece of info about the demolition claw - you're forced to take demo charges on every unit (though you do get it for free on the goliaths at least), which is a bit of a bummer, as they're not cheap.
Oh, also, if a vehicle with demo charges suffers a penetrating hit, it then suffers another str8 AP2 one...
How expensive are the abberants? I haven't heard much talk on their viability yet. it would seem like they would also be awesome for cracking open armored targets.
Got the codex today, skimming through it over some beers right now so I'm likely missing some stuff, but this codex definitely seems to have a lot of potential.
In the Subterranean Uprising, Aberrants gain Infiltrate and can basically roll 3d6 and pick one for Cult Ambush, giving a good chance of the 6 results.
If it's a part of a larger Cult Insurrection with a Brood Cycle core, the Acolyte Iconward also gains Infiltrate, and can thus join the Aberrants and give them a 4+ FnP. The Aberrants have Infiltrate from their sub-formation, so they get first turn Shrouded from the CI. Throw in a Patriarch with the Primaris to reduce whatever you charge to I1, so Unwieldy hammers aren't a problem, and it seems like a pretty solid assault unit.
The more human part of the Genestealer Cult usually are exemplary Imperial citizens, there should be plenty of IG regiments infested with 4th generation hybrids and/or familiars.
Tyranids and gsc seem like far better allies than guard.
Tyranids desperately need a ground game-their bread and butter are units like mawlocks and flyrants but their troops are garbage. Meanwhile gsc have some of the best troops around but theres nothing special about their support elements.
I think it's important to note that when deploying via ambush a roll of 5 will allow the unit to shoot in the deployment portion of the game.
A unit of 20 Acolyte Hybrids with hand flamers costs 13ppm x 20 = 260 points.
Taken as part of the Subterranean Uprising with an attached Primus you get to roll 3 dice for ambush and choose the result you want.
That is about a 1/2 chance of having the ability to deploy and shoot 20 flame templates in deployment before the game even begins. You could very easily grab First Blood and Slay the Warlord this way through sheer volume of dice.
Considering every other unit in the "decurion" also has a chance to hit the table shooting (though mostly it's a 16ish% chance per unit) That is the most ridiculous alpha strike in the game.
I wonder if the rule Nexus of Devotion(12" FNP 6+) that the Acolyte Iconward have, stack with other Iconwards Devotions even though he himself doesn't benefit from it as RAW?
"Models that already have the Feel No Pain (excluding any Acolytes Iconwards) special rule instead add 1 to their Feel No Pain roll."
Do the the units around both of them get FNP +5 or more?
Also, say that during the deployment. I have Infiltrate units and deployed them via Cult Ambush, I rolled a and moved them onto the board on my own table edge. Am I able to "Return to the shadows" to ongoing reserves on turn 1 since RAW doesn't prevent me from doing so?
"A unit cannot return to the shadows in the same turn it arrives from reserves or ongoing reserves and cannot do so whilst embarked in a vehicle."
Am I reading these rules correctly? Like to hear your thoughts about it.
BRB I believe says the same rule does not stack unless it specifically says it does. The rule that grants FNP is Nexus of Devotion. So 2 Nexus of Devotions should not stack thus it is still 6+. If they managed to get FNP from a second source then it would be 5+.
Yes you can return to shadows on turn 1 since deployment is not a turn and even if it was it would be your "next turn" on turn 1.
Red Corsair wrote: You say that until you face GSC backed by an armored company or a Hellhammer.
Those two things that are terrible on their own and not conducive to the cults melee play style?
Gsc don't want large blasts flying around near their melee troops who hang out 6" from the enemy. They want a big scary anti armor monster that pops up in a similar place that they do so they can screen it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: I think it's important to note that when deploying via ambush a roll of 5 will allow the unit to shoot in the deployment portion of the game.
A unit of 20 Acolyte Hybrids with hand flamers costs 13ppm x 20 = 260 points.
Taken as part of the Subterranean Uprising with an attached Primus you get to roll 3 dice for ambush and choose the result you want.
That is about a 1/2 chance of having the ability to deploy and shoot 20 flame templates in deployment before the game even begins. You could very easily grab First Blood and Slay the Warlord this way through sheer volume of dice.
Considering every other unit in the "decurion" also has a chance to hit the table shooting (though mostly it's a 16ish% chance per unit) That is the most ridiculous alpha strike in the game.
Here's the question though: do you deploy these guys during your deployment step or when you would be infiltrating?
Red Corsair wrote: You say that until you face GSC backed by an armored company or a Hellhammer.
Those two things that are terrible on their own and not conducive to the cults melee play style?
Gsc don't want large blasts flying around near their melee troops who hang out 6" from the enemy. They want a big scary anti armor monster that pops up in a similar place that they do so they can screen it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: I think it's important to note that when deploying via ambush a roll of 5 will allow the unit to shoot in the deployment portion of the game.
A unit of 20 Acolyte Hybrids with hand flamers costs 13ppm x 20 = 260 points.
Taken as part of the Subterranean Uprising with an attached Primus you get to roll 3 dice for ambush and choose the result you want.
That is about a 1/2 chance of having the ability to deploy and shoot 20 flame templates in deployment before the game even begins. You could very easily grab First Blood and Slay the Warlord this way through sheer volume of dice.
Considering every other unit in the "decurion" also has a chance to hit the table shooting (though mostly it's a 16ish% chance per unit) That is the most ridiculous alpha strike in the game.
Here's the question though: do you deploy these guys during your deployment step or when you would be infiltrating?
I know, but if im remembering the rules it says "A unit that can infiltrate can DEPLOY via cult ambush"
Which means you dont cult ambush after deployment, like infiltrate. That means if you deploy first, a roll of "5" is pretty much useless (no models willb e on the board to shoot at).
So, I'm looking over several of the formations again, and I'm seeing some odd holes here and there that will probably require erratas.
Doting Throng: The way Frenzied Devotion and Willing Subjects work, there is no actual requirement for the Magus to actually be from this formation either. Unless the Magus himself gets Zealot (which would allow him to join another unit, ex: Metamorphs), it appears there's no practical reason to include the Magus in this formation versus just running him in a command slot; at the end of the day, you're just grabbing more grunts that you can conditionally buff up (and if you're running something like a Biomagus, that's not going to work either).
Subterranean Uprising: I asked on YMDC but The RAW is for Meticulous Planner states "If unit in this formation joined by 'a' Primus" for the '3d6 & choose" ability. It doesn't mention that the Primus actually *has* to be from this formation in order to provide Meticulous Planner. Considering the Primus already has Infiltrate, there appears to be no *practical* reason to include him in the Subterranean Uprising (you "could" argue that he could let a unit of Neophytes roll 2d6 and choose) rather than including him as a standalone Command Choice, so he has the option of either joining a unit from Subterranean Ambush or joining a unit doing regular Infiltration (Granting "Shrouded" to a large Neophyte unit camping an objective always has its appeal too).
the_scotsman wrote: I know, but if im remembering the rules it says "A unit that can infiltrate can DEPLOY via cult ambush"
Which means you dont cult ambush after deployment, like infiltrate. That means if you deploy first, a roll of "5" is pretty much useless (no models willb e on the board to shoot at).
That bears more looking at. It seems weird that first blood could be gotten by the second player without seizing. Are we sure this is how it works?
the_scotsman wrote: I know, but if im remembering the rules it says "A unit that can infiltrate can DEPLOY via cult ambush"
Which means you dont cult ambush after deployment, like infiltrate. That means if you deploy first, a roll of "5" is pretty much useless (no models willb e on the board to shoot at).
It's not "can".
Units with this special rule THAT infiltrate, or arrives from reserves or ongoing reserves, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table...
You have to be deploying by infiltrate (or show up from reserves/ongoing reserves) to roll on the table at all. I am convinced that while 6 is probably the best option once the game gets going 5 is by far the best on deployment. Kill everyone you can before the game even begins. Hope you get initiative first turn and then shoot them all up a second time.
Yeah it seems to me that you arrive BY using the cult ambush rule (not during your standard deployment) but also not via the infiltrate rule (so no servo skull sadness)
Worth nothing, if a unit is deployed using Cult Ambush, and it doesn't count as Infiltrating, then it would also seem that any unit that deploys that way could charge turn 1.
minionboy wrote: Worth nothing, if a unit is deployed using Cult Ambush, and it doesn't count as Infiltrating, then it would also seem that any unit that deploys that way could charge turn 1.
Deploying via ambush is infiltrating. You have to actually infiltrate in order to roll on the ambush table.
minionboy wrote: Worth nothing, if a unit is deployed using Cult Ambush, and it doesn't count as Infiltrating, then it would also seem that any unit that deploys that way could charge turn 1.
Deploying via ambush is infiltrating. You have to actually infiltrate in order to roll on the ambush table.
Isn't it phrased "can instead deploy via cult ambush?"
minionboy wrote: Worth nothing, if a unit is deployed using Cult Ambush, and it doesn't count as Infiltrating, then it would also seem that any unit that deploys that way could charge turn 1.
Deploying via ambush is infiltrating. You have to actually infiltrate in order to roll on the ambush table.
Isn't it phrased "can instead deploy via cult ambush?"
No, it's not.
"A unit with this special rule that infiltrates, or arrives from reserves or ongoing reserves, can choose to roll on".... etc etc...
You have to be infiltrating to roll on the table in deployment. The Ambush table changes how you arrive but you have to actually initiate infiltrate to do it.
You never actually arrive via ambush. Ambush is a kind of interrupt that inserts itself into other actions. Either 1) you infiltrate in deployment and then make a choice to roll on the ambush table and do what it says. Or 2) you come in from reserves or ongoing reserves and as you enter the table you choose to roll on the ambush table. There is no such thing as arriving via ambush.
minionboy wrote: Worth nothing, if a unit is deployed using Cult Ambush, and it doesn't count as Infiltrating, then it would also seem that any unit that deploys that way could charge turn 1.
Deploying via ambush is infiltrating. You have to actually infiltrate in order to roll on the ambush table.
Isn't it phrased "can instead deploy via cult ambush?"
'Instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally.'
That is the phrase used. The fact they seperate the two and the fact that units which infiltrate can choose to roll on the table 'instead of deploying normally' implies it happens at the same time as Infiltration. Infiltration Plus as it were.
"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."
The key part is the last part of the sentence. Instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally. As arriving from Reserves is mentioned earlier in the sentence and Infiltrate is a form of deployment, I would argue that Cult Ambush supersedes Infiltrate and arriving from Reserves as the rule itself explicitly states you do it *instead* of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally. Instead of deploying by Infiltrate normally or arriving from Reserves normally, you roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead.
The last part of that sentences' wording really needs to be stressed more. The sentence as a whole basically reads as "if you are qualified to do 'x' (Infiltrate) or 'y' (arrive from Reserves), you can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead of following the normal rules." I think the Infiltrate part - and the Reserves part - are merely qualifications required to use Cult Ambush, and that Cult Ambush rules replace the normal ones; hence why, unlike Infiltrators, Cult Ambushers can potentially charge on the first game turn, shoot twice in the same turn, be set up within 10" or 7", etc.
I don't mind being wrong as it helps me out a lot, but I would say there's a strong case to be made that Servo Skulls and what not don't affect Cult Ambush. It's probably in need of an FAQ though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that I think about it I'm also not sure if the wording of the first sentence still forces you to Infiltrate. Eh. The second sentence does say you roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead of deploying normally or arriving from Reserves normally so I would assume that means you don't use the normal rules for Infiltrate or arriving from Reserves, meaning you then are not affected by things like Servo Skulls, but I digress. I'd expect any possible FAQ to rule in favor of the Cult, especially from a thematic stand point, but who knows.
If the Cult end up being blocked by Servo Skulls, Inquisitors will become virtual auto-takes in the competitive meta I would assume, even if only just to make sure you don't get screwed over by first turn charges. Mind, for Cult players it's not that major of an issue - they can just deploy normally, use the Into the Shadows rule and pop up on turn two (or just use their +1 to Reserves in the Cult Insurrection detachment to just roll for Reserves normally) - it's more an annoyance as you're losing that first turn pressure which can decide games.
RAW skulls don't currently work. As you aptly pointed out, infiltrate and reserves are merely prerequisites in order to roll on the cult ambush table which is its own thing entirely.
I disagree. It does not say units with the infiltrate special rule. It says units that infiltrate. They have to actually infiltrate to use ambush.
Acolyte hybrids by default do not have infiltrate. Acolyte hybrids that gain it through formations and super detachments still need to actually infiltrate in order to have the option to roll on the table. If they do not choose to infiltrate they do not get the option to roll on the table.
Lance845 wrote: I disagree. It does not say units with the infiltrate special rule. It says units that infiltrate. They have to actually infiltrate to use ambush.
Acolyte hybrids by default do not have infiltrate. Acolyte hybrids that gain it through formations and super detachments still need to actually infiltrate in order to have the option to roll on the table. If they do not choose to infiltrate they do not get the option to roll on the table.
Here are the reasons I disagree:
1) It says "INSTEAD OF deploying or rolling for reserves." Infiltrate is a special form of deployment, and Cult Ambush is a separate rule with a separate means of deployment.
2) GW has ruled in the FAQ that all similar rules (the DWO patriarch's rule and the callidus assassin's rule) bypass servo skulls, indicating that servo skulls seem to only function specifically when using the "infiltrate" rule and not any other similar rule
3) 50% of the results on the table are very clearly not similar to infiltrate, they are arriving normally from reserve, and arriving in a matter identical to outflank. Even the results that work somewhat similarly to infiltrate only do so in that you put the units down somewhere they couldn't ordinarily go, with some kind of restrictions based on proximity to enemy models. It doesn't use the same values as infiltrate (12" and 18"), it can be used outside the deployment phase, and one result doesn't even care if the enemy can draw LOS to you or not.
3) 50% of the results on the table are very clearly not similar to infiltrate, they are arriving normally from reserve, and arriving in a matter identical to outflank. Even the results that work somewhat similarly to infiltrate only do so in that you put the units down somewhere they couldn't ordinarily go, with some kind of restrictions based on proximity to enemy models. It doesn't use the same values as infiltrate (12" and 18"), it can be used outside the deployment phase, and one result doesn't even care if the enemy can draw LOS to you or not.
can be viewed different, because some results only change the 12" and 18" value of infiltrate.
PS. right now I'm neither for or against, because it can be explained both ways
I came in here hoping for some interesting tactical debates... does this conversation not belong in 'You make da call'? Not trying to be contentious or a limiter of speech, but it is a bit tedious for players who don't have an interest in nitpicking the wording of rules, I'm sure I speak for more than just myself...
whirlwindstruggle wrote: I came in here hoping for some interesting tactical debates... does this conversation not belong in 'You make da call'? Not trying to be contentious or a limiter of speech, but it is a bit tedious for players who don't have an interest in nitpicking the wording of rules, I'm sure I speak for more than just myself...
I think the question of whether a 34-point detachment that can be added by any army to instantly invalidate an entire codex is fairly relevant to tactical discussion.
Regardless, I think we've reached the point where people who want to interpret the rule are going to think the way they want to. You have a rule that says "Applies to infiltrate and scout" and another rule that is not called either infiltrate or scout with a clear precedent of multiple similar rules being officially decided the opposite way.
So I have a more on-topic tactical question:
My build is going to feature a fairly minimal Subterranean uprising focusing on 1 unit of claw-morphs and one unit of aberrants. The clawmorphs I'm going to join with the Primus to make them more reliable, but I'm torn with the Aberrants between bringing in a CAD for a second primus, or adding an Iconward through the free Command slot.
Pros of Primus CAD: Offensively more powerful and more durable. I'm convinced this guy is going to hit above his weight class thanks to the auto-succeeding LOS checks, enabling him to just go ham in whatever challenge he wants to. Also, makes the unit significantly more reliable with the 3d6.
Cons: Cost. The minimum cost of the second primus is 155 with 2 acolyte squads, and I'd be more apt to bring neophytes which are even more expensive because I'm not convinced that unbuffed Cult Ambushing acolytes will actually be as good as people think. you're much more likely to get some use out of a shooting focused unit than a melee one. The Iconward gives those aberrants a 4+++ (plus anyone else who happens to be nearby) and provides a bit of punch and leadership.
What would you bring? How are you planning on structuring your Uprising formation?
Claw Metamorphs in a Brood Cycle interest me: Easy access to furious charge plus potentially a Psyker power that raises strength means they could be hitting S8 rending at initiative. Rage too.
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.
you could also at a marking on the trim of the base, like a number or even paint the trim in different colors for different unit
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.
I know I'll be running different schemes for all my formations. I have traitor vostroyans for my Cavalcade, Forgeworld Renegades will likely be my Brood Cycle, and GW Neophytes for my Doting Throng.
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.
You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.
I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, Independant Characters raised by Numbers Beyond Counting?
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.
You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.
I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, Independant Characters raised by Numbers Beyond Counting?
Discuss.
I'm pretty sure that's a no. ICs are units in and of themselves, if they're killed out of a squad, they're no longer "part of the unit" so they don't count towards the D6 models you can bring back.
terry wrote: you could also at a marking on the trim of the base, like a number or even paint the trim in different colors for different unit
I usually mark the backs of bases for when they're on the tabletop and need to determine if they're in this unit or that unit. But this codex takes things to a new level with the need to keep close track of specific casualties. I need something more at-a-glance for when they're off the table, and I don't want to use every color of the rainbow since my scheme uses a very limited palette.
Some stripes or unit markings on the shoulders might help, but really I think I need some kind of miniature organizer I can put under the table or in a sideboard to make things as fast and easy as possible.
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.
You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.
I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.
I *think* the buff tracking and overall speed will get better with mental improvements -- practice, familiarity, and as my list evolves and units become a little more specialized, targeted for a certain role, and/or operate together more in certain combinations.
For all the unit cycling and casualty accounting, I think I want some kind of physical aid like I mentioned. I'll have to make some kind of mockup and test it.
Edit: The Iconward with the different ranges is a bit of a PITA. One approach might be to make all the measurements from the Iconward at the beginning of the turn or phase and then place counters next to each unit showing their respective buffs.
gorgon wrote: I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.
You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.
I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.
One thing that will probably help would be to "model/convert" the units to distinguish which formation they're a part of. So Neophytes in a Calvacade are converted Cadians while Neophytes in a Brood Cycle use the cultist torso. The Acolytes from the Subterranean Uprising get picks and mining helms and other "character" items, while the ones from a Demolition Claw wear explosive vests or something along those lines. Etc.
Besides this, keep your squad configurations mostly similar between each other within a formation. Don't do something like running a Subterranean Uprising where one unit has Rocksaws, one has Drills and one has Cutters. Other than the lack of innate redundancy (The Rocksaw is the one most dangerous to a Knight. Guess which one gets targeted first), you don't have to fiddle through the rules and go "oh, was this the squad that had the Rocksaws?" Bookhammer kills the pacing of the game.
Some stripes or unit markings on the shoulders might help, but really I think I need some kind of miniature organizer I can put under the table or in a sideboard to make things as fast and easy as possible.
For my endless swarm I used some old plates we weren't using anymore (Ikea Kalas, link below). Idea was to paint the back of the base the corresponding color and put casualties in the right ones. Never got the colors painted so it didn't work as great as I'd planned, but still helped not only during game but also sped up deployment a bit.
Ideally for GSC I want something that was actual terrain for display purposes but themed to the units (I intend to convert mine from various IG and Chaos cultists as well as the GSC ones)
Do units brought back to life with numbers beyond counting get their one time use items again? I am thinking suicide bombers with demo charges could be fun.
MagicJuggler wrote: One thing that will probably help would be to "model/convert" the units to distinguish which formation they're a part of. So Neophytes in a Calvacade are converted Cadians while Neophytes in a Brood Cycle use the cultist torso. The Acolytes from the Subterranean Uprising get picks and mining helms and other "character" items, while the ones from a Demolition Claw wear explosive vests or something along those lines. Etc.
Well, the vast majority of my army will use my existing models, so I'm not going to tear them apart or model a bunch of new ones just for bookkeeping purposes. Fine idea for a new Cultist, however.
Besides this, keep your squad configurations mostly similar between each other within a formation. Don't do something like running a Subterranean Uprising where one unit has Rocksaws, one has Drills and one has Cutters. Other than the lack of innate redundancy (The Rocksaw is the one most dangerous to a Knight. Guess which one gets targeted first), you don't have to fiddle through the rules and go "oh, was this the squad that had the Rocksaws?" Bookhammer kills the pacing of the game.
That was kind of what I was alluding to in my previous comments about army evolution. I don't nearly have things locked down, but right now I'm looking at smaller Acolyte units equipped one way for my Brood Cycle, and somewhat larger Acolyte units equipped differently in my Subterranean Uprising. That's not so much for bookkeeping purposes as much as they seem to make more sense that way.
And again, it's not just about keeping units or their buffs straight. It's about knowing that *this* unit is coming in from ongoing reserves, and *these* models will be replenished from that unit when it enters, while *those* models from that same unit remain casualties...and sorting that out very quickly.
@winterman -- Thanks. That might be a cheap and easy way to do it. Figure a series of small bowls mounted to a tray, one designated for each unit. A1, A2, A3, N1, N2, etc. Pad the bottom a little since my models are mostly metal. Or I could use magnets and sheet metal to keep the models from tipping when in the bowl, if I'm in an enterprising mood.
I like the Demo Claw a whole lot. Since Rock Grinders are slow, I feel like the best use for it is a mid/backfield control. Mount the acolytes up, and go to town on whatever makes it past your infiltrating wall of death. You'll create a nice exclusion zone for knights until your tank hunting deff rollas get taken care of.
Demolition charges will make short work of anything they can actually get within range of. Normally, I'd write them off as essentially useless, but when attached to a vehicle designed to run into things, there's a pretty good shot you'll get to use them a time or two. Run up the board, and dump big blasts on anything that survives or avoids your initial ambush.
As for the primary weapon, you basically have to go with the seismic cannon, right? The mining laser, as a one-shot BS3 weapon, is pretty mediocre, even with Tank Hunter. Torrent is sweet, but 80 pts for a heavy flamer in an army bristling with crowd control doesn't do too much for me. I can see it being nice since you're going to be tank shocking things into flamer formation all over the place, though. Still, you'd probably be better off dumping a bunch of hand flamers into units than one heavy flamer, and most of the competitive lists these days don't bother with huge units that are ripe flamer bait.
The acolytes themselves should probably be bare-bones. I'd run them with 1 demo charge and nothing else. If you stash them in the Grinders, they'll already be a big enough target, so dropping more points on them probably is unwise.
MilkmanAl wrote: I like the Demo Claw a whole lot. Since Rock Grinders are slow, I feel like the best use for it is a mid/backfield control. Mount the acolytes up, and go to town on whatever makes it past your infiltrating wall of death. You'll create a nice exclusion zone for knights until your tank hunting deff rollas get taken care of.
Demolition charges will make short work of anything they can actually get within range of. Normally, I'd write them off as essentially useless, but when attached to a vehicle designed to run into things, there's a pretty good shot you'll get to use them a time or two. Run up the board, and dump big blasts on anything that survives or avoids your initial ambush.
As for the primary weapon, you basically have to go with the seismic cannon, right? The mining laser, as a one-shot BS3 weapon, is pretty mediocre, even with Tank Hunter. Torrent is sweet, but 80 pts for a heavy flamer in an army bristling with crowd control doesn't do too much for me. I can see it being nice since you're going to be tank shocking things into flamer formation all over the place, though. Still, you'd probably be better off dumping a bunch of hand flamers into units than one heavy flamer, and most of the competitive lists these days don't bother with huge units that are ripe flamer bait.
The acolytes themselves should probably be bare-bones. I'd run them with 1 demo charge and nothing else. If you stash them in the Grinders, they'll already be a big enough target, so dropping more points on them probably is unwise.
I agree entirely, Demo claw is just amazing. Don't forget that you can still take dedicated transports, so you can get some Tank hunting twin-linked autocannons on some trucks too! Seismic Cannon is definitely the way to go for the reasons you mentioned... BS3 lascannon is meh, and that's a ton of points for a heavy flamer.
So I think I've got my list, barring tweaking with some upgrades:
First curse w/ML2 on patriarch
Brood cycle with:
Iconward
3 min acolyte squads
2 min neophyte squads
20 genestealers
5 metamorphs w/claws
Subterranean with:
Primus
10 metamorphs w/claws, banner
20 acolytes w/banner, heavy rock saw
20 acolytes w/banner
CAD:
Primus
Patriarch (ML2)
2 min acolyte squads
Puts me at 1845. It's a lot of hatred and fearless bubbles, plus the enormous furious charge bubble. Of course all the genestealers get furious charge always. Only thing I don't like about it is that the stealers don't have a reliable way to make it into combat. 1/3 games the warlord patriarch will get to choose the result, and 1/3 games one of the squads will roll it turn 1. My hope is that with so many MSU squads, I can roll enough sixes turn 1 to tie up the important things (with those primuses, chances are pretty decent that I will) so that whatever doesn't make it into combat doesn't get hit too hard. With mass shrouded turn 1, it shouldn't be too big of a deal.
Plus we can pull tyranid shenanigans with the patriarch's bubble. Go to ground with a unit outside of the bubble, move patriarch closer during movement phase, then say "What do you mean I went to ground? I don't remember doing that"
Don't forget that you can still take dedicated transports, so you can get some Tank hunting twin-linked autocannons on some trucks too!
With that in mind, you can actually get a fair amount of hull spam going in a GSC list. Off the top of my head, 2 Demo Claws each with 3 min Acolyte units, 3 Rock Grinders with seismic cannons, and 3 Goliaths is 1170pts. That leaves plenty of room for a Brood Cycle and Subterranean Uprising to get in your opponent's face immediately and provide some threat saturation. GSC vehicles obviously aren't the hardiest of contraptions, but it's never a simple task to wipe 12 vehicles away, especially when there are 2-3 units prepared to assault you on the first turn and a bunch more immediately behind them.
So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.
Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.
Invul wrote: So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.
Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.
You totally can do this. Subterranean Uprising's one of the Formation bonus is Infiltrate.
changemod wrote: What should list building priorities be if building a CAD? Particularly around 1000 pts.
I mean in practice, probably more thinking CAD + First Curse, but basically just trying to work that out.
I'd say Acolytes/Metamorphs in Goliath trucks, Neophytes in Chimeras, go for a mechanized list approach. Only go on foot if you're joining an IC to grant infiltrate to the squad and deploy via cult ambush.
Is anyone considering doing a shooty GSC list? I know the potential for T1 combat is sexy and tough to ignore, but I feel like army-wide infiltrating heavy weapons is something that hasn't gotten much air time. Consider the following extremely rough draft list:
While one BS3 S9 AP2 shot may not be impressive, as above, 24 of them certainly is. The mining lasers' short range is mitigated (or negated) by everything infiltrating, so you should always be able to get at least close to where you need to be. The Demo Claw provides some anti-vehicle punch and hopefully prevents things from being too antsy to close with your lines. Similarly, the non-Neophyte Brood Cycle units provide a counter-charge threat and can get into the mix immediately with a couple lucky 6s on the ambush table.
I considered going with a Neophyte Cavalcade as the core formation, but I think the Cycle fits better. Specifically, the counter charge potential is very important to keep your list from crumpling as soon as someone assaults you. The nearly army-wide 6+ FNP from the Iconward is also a nice bonus when you're dumping 150 models on the board. The alternative, in my mind, is using a few ambushing Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers to cause early disruption and park a Leman Russ somewhere it can plink shots at whatever ails you. I certainly like the idea of parking a bunch of armor in your opponent's face turn 1, even if it is a bunch of 10/10/10 Sentinels, but I think the Cycle provides greater benefits and creates more problems with target priority than the Cavalcade would.
My big question is why you'd ever pass up Seismic cannons for mining lasers. The former seems flatly superior, for just 5 points more you get double the shots if within 12" (easy to do with cult ambush) and the ability to flex into heavy bolter stats by infiltrating a little farther back. A large percentage of penetrating hits are going to be sixes, making them AP1.
Any drawback to the seismic cannon seems to be offset by the fact that the squad is BS3 and that extra shot is gold.
Also, I'm usually going to want to send in a couple grenade launchers for good measure. They're cheap, and they allow you to threaten rear armor 10 much more reliably than just the 4 BS3 shots would.
Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.
I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.
Range is the primary motivator. I'm not convinced you could get many units within 12" to really take advantage of the seismic cannon. Since the Neophytes aren't terribly mobile, repositioning isn't much of an option. Mining lasers also provide reliable AP2 which is crucial when up against Tau (Riptides!) and also helps with vehicle removal. The heavy bolter mode is of minimal benefit when you already have over 100 autoguns to thin the herd, in my opinion.
+lord of the cult: Magus lvl2 and spell familiar (85)
+brood cyrcle
-Iconward (65)
-2x5 hybrids (80)
-10 hybrids, icon, boss (sword and slash), 2x chains (175)
-2 x 10 neophytes with 4 mine laser (160)
-5 methamorps with +2S claws (55)
-5 genestealers (70)
+Subterranean uprsing:
- primus (75)
-4 x 5 hybrids each unit with 1 explosive and 4 flamer pistol (320) (suicide squads)
-2 x 5 metamorps with +2S claws, boss with lash ans bone sword (150)
-10 methamorps with boss (lash and sword) icon and +2 S claws. (160)
This is near 1500 pnts. I love the spells of genestealers so i want add one of this:
+CAD : 2x10 neophite with 4 mine lasers and 2 magus lvl 2 (290)
+Broodcoven ( i remove the prime of subterranean) (190)
which prefer?
Also there are some extra points (if i remove mine lasers more points i will have) that i can use in:
- add more hybrids
-add more chains in some hybrids
-add more genestealers
- add ascendent cult icon to iconward.
Red Corsair wrote: Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.
I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.
I said percentage of penetrating hits. In terms of the number of shots that will miss, or fail to pen...well, the laser has 1/2 the number of shots, and only 1 more strength in the effective band. Even if you go within 24", vs AV10 rear or side armor, the guns are identical in terms of Hull Point removal (0.5 on average).
My point was more, if you do score a pen, a lot of the time that pen will be on a 6. for example, if you're shooting at an AV10 target and you score a pen, by definition you must have rolled a 6 on your penetration roll. Within 12" and vs AV12, 50% of pens will be on a 6.
I suppose you could mix and match weapons a little. Like I said, I imagine most of your units would be outside of 12" once you actually set them up on the table. Perhaps rolling with one of the Throngs as a seismic unit would be sufficient. I think you'd struggle to fit more than 50 guys within 12" of ideal targets, especially considering your other ambushing units.
Red Corsair wrote: Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.
I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.
I said percentage of penetrating hits. In terms of the number of shots that will miss, or fail to pen...well, the laser has 1/2 the number of shots, and only 1 more strength in the effective band. Even if you go within 24", vs AV10 rear or side armor, the guns are identical in terms of Hull Point removal (0.5 on average).
My point was more, if you do score a pen, a lot of the time that pen will be on a 6. for example, if you're shooting at an AV10 target and you score a pen, by definition you must have rolled a 6 on your penetration roll. Within 12" and vs AV12, 50% of pens will be on a 6.
Ah OK that makes a lot more sense but I do find ti a bit strange to look at it that way. I mean, you still need to acquire targets and hit first. The laser has the same issue with regard to BS sure, but your going to find it much easier to get them into range and they also auto glance vs AV 10. I don't want to even know the number of times I've dropped a 1 to pen with strength 8, it's why las canons are so much more effective then missile launchers. Don't get me wrong here I love the seismic canon, but at the same time I am hearing a lot of talk on why it is the auto take on neophytes and I think that is a mistake.
I am working on a list for an Escalation league that will be starting in about two weeks.
- We are starting at 600 points, then adding +350 each round until we reach 2000 points total.
- Each unit and all wargear options you take must stay with you from round to round, but units may take additional models and/or wargear options still available (i.e. a Neophyte could upgrade his Autogun to a Mining Laser, but not his Heavy Stubber to a Mining Laser.)
- Once during the league you can shuffle around the Detachments/Formations you are using.
I am looking for feedback on my choices, though due to the models I have and limited funds for additions, I probably don't have a lot of wiggle room in models, but maybe a bit more in equipment choices. Particularly interested in any holes in my list - i.e. things I will really struggle against. I know I won't have a lot of anti-air, and that 4 Mastery Levels total might be a little light, but I don't really have much of an option to improve those that I can think of at the moment.
- At this point level, the "Shadow Skulkers" are moved to "The First Curse" and reinforced to include the below.
The First Curse
Patrich (125 pts)
- 2 Familiars
- Mastery 2
20 Purestrains (280 pts / +210 pts)
- At this point level, the Primus above replaces his Bonesword with the Sword of the Void's Eye. (+15 pts)
- At this point level, the Magus is moved from the "Lords of the Cult" to "The Doting Throng".
Round 5 - +350 Points
Lords of the Cult
Iconward (80 pts)
- Scourge of Distant Stars
- At this point level, the "Subterannean Uprising" is reinforced to include:
6 Aberrants (180 pts)
- At this point level, Neophytes #1 gain 2 Mining Lasers (+30 pts)
- At this point level, Neophytes #2 gain 1 Heavy Stubber (+5 pts)
- At this point level, Neophytes #3 gain 2 Mining Lasers (+30 pts)
- At this point level, Acolytes #3 gain 1 Heavy Rock Saw (+25 pts)
I am hoping to use MSU, Cult Ambush and the Neophyte Cavalcade to flood the enemy's half of the board with as many threats as I can from all angles. My Exterminator will provide limited anti-air, and fairly decent anti-tank along with the Armoured Sentinel and lots of Rending. I also hope to have a few models leftover for possible use of the Telepathic Summons if it comes up, as I plan for the Magus to roll Broodmind, while the Patriarch will go either Telepathy or Biomancy depending on what I think will be most useful against the opponents I am matched with.
Quite like the sound of the Cults, I'm not entirely sold on the models but the ambushing style of play reminds me of 5th edition Genestealers which I loved to use. Speaking of, I have a good few genestealer models that go unused so it'd be nice to use them even as just an Allied Detachment.
Surprised they're only allies of convenience with Tyranids though, but I guess Battle Brothers was a bit out of the question what with being able to stick nids in vehicles...
Invul wrote: So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.
Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.
You totally can do this. Subterranean Uprising's one of the Formation bonus is Infiltrate.
I meant prior to your opponent actually deploying, to somehow direct how they can feasibly position. But infiltrate happens after everyone's deployed, so that's some trollishness destroyed.
What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.
Timeshadow wrote: What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.
That sounds pretty nasty actually..
Will have to give that a go, since my Tyranid list tended to focus on Manafactorium Genestealers until they got FAQ'd saying you couldn't add Broodlords
Timeshadow wrote: What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.
Make the other two broodlords, lesser liutenant pack alphas under the prime one's command.
Or maybe they come from a planetary system where the non-warlord ones spread out and became heads of other cults on neighbouring moons and planets, feeding tribute back to the prime cult.
Disapprove of Flyrant allies on fluff grounds no matter the justification though, bad enough when multiples are taken in a full Nid detachment where they already stick out as unfluffy traveling in packs.
Like I said unfluffy but with the right rolls could be deadly.
Imagine an invisible unit with 20 cult genestealers, 3 patriarch, with a 5++ 4+ fnp, eternal warrior and loads of other usefull powers such as smite, and the fun move run and charge with +1strength hive mind power.
Timeshadow wrote: What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.
Boom or bust. With the right psychic powers and a good roll on the cult ambush table, it'll look unstoppable. Miss out on one of those against a good list or both against a bad list and you will struggle. That's why in my GSC list I have a ton of units so that SOMEONE will make it in turn one. Hopefully a fair few someone's. The primuses and subterranean formation go a long way in that regard. But you need to either tie things up or kill things dead turn 1 because after that, you don't have shrouded anymore. Outside of the GSC formation, it's even more imperative that you get in soon because you don't have shrouded turn 1 and stealth doesn't stack with night fight. I ran it once with the Deathleaper Assassin brood and it did alright, but that was against a Tyranid army (no ignores cover shooting and generally short range). It'd be a fun list to run for sure but not sure how competitive it could be
I've noticed our Relics are...for the most part a crapshoot. They seem 'neat' but the ones that are most useful replace a range/melee weapon (so Pistols across the board suffering) but don't count as such themselves.
The Scourge in particular...and that makes me sad. I'd rather not sacrifice attacks, especially as our characters can literally live in large, replenishing blobs safely and get their attacks off.
The Crouchling is well worth the tradeoff in my opinion as sacrificing the pistol for 2 S4 AP- Attacks and an extra Psychic power doesn't hurt at all.
Obviously the Sword of the Void's Eye is a direct replacement for the Primus's Bonesword, superior in every way, so that one is good too.
I like the idea of the Scourge on an Iconward as, when combined with the Unquestioning Loyalty rule it gives an opponent pause when considering challenging the Iconward's unit. An unsaveable Wound on a tooled up combat character is a somewhat unwelcome prospect.
The icon seems well worth the trade as well, especially if you put the Iconward in a large unit. Losing a pistol shot and an Attack to gain up to 20 Attacks for an Acolyte or Neophyte unit, or 10 for a Metamorph unit with claws or whips is quite useful.
The dagger and the staff are fairly unattractive in my opinion, but at least the dagger would not sacrifice any Attacks. I guess the Rending and Ignores Civer on the staff might be nice, but the otherwise low Strength and loss if an Attack dull it's shine. The real nail in the Staff's coffin though is the fact that it competes with The Crouchling since both are Magus only, and he is a far better option for the same price in my opinion. I would only even consider taking the Staff if I was taking a second Magus.
The Staff looks like it was meant for hunting monsters, but the problem is most of your army rends anyway, and as mentioned, the Crouchling has a greater priority.
I noticed something amusing recently and I think it's kind of cute actually: There's nothing that prevents Hybrid Metamorph weapons from stacking with a Bonesword, plus you're only "taking" the Bonesword and not replacing your rending weapons.
Meaning you have the option to turn your Metamorph Leader into an I6 Assassin. You take him in the Brood Cycle and he's within a 24" Furious Charge Bubble with potentially enhanced Weapon Skill. He would strike *before* a Wraithknight, and every 6 to-wound would deny FNP and add a further D3 wounds right then and there. Or you can just use him to mulch through Power Armor before they get a chance to swing. Plus there's the potential to return him through Return to the Shadows.
What do people think about a mix of Whips and Claws in a Metamorph unit? The Whips would be able to bring some things down before they strike (faster stuff is usually more fragile), while the Claws would be able to add more punch against survivors and slower stuff.
I am thinking something like 2 Whips and 3 Claws, or 3 Whips and 2 Claws per 5.
Ambience 327 wrote: What do people think about a mix of Whips and Claws in a Metamorph unit? The Whips would be able to bring some things down before they strike (faster stuff is usually more fragile), while the Claws would be able to add more punch against survivors and slower stuff.
I am thinking something like 2 Whips and 3 Claws, or 3 Whips and 2 Claws per 5.
I definitely plan on doing a mix of half whips, half claws in the bigger units. I'm debating on the role of the smaller units though. Strong possibility I go that route and go 2 whips and 3 claws to help keep some of the return attacks down.
Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.
In a unit of 5, two whips seem like a very incremental improvement against I4+ units that probably won't have much trouble removing a bunch of T3, 5+ models.
I only have one game under my belt, but to me the min-sized units are so small and fragile that you just want to keep them simple and focused. But YMMV.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.
I used daemonette claws in my pre-codex army, so I'll be continuing that theme and use them for metamorph claws in my codex army.
I'm actually going to rip them off those models and a few others, give them to the Metamorphs (I also have more claws in my bits box), and then outfit these with new arms.
Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.
I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...
(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)
Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.
Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.
Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.
Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.
I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...
(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)
Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.
Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.
Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.
Special weapons yes, but remember that as soon as an IC is separated from his init for any reason he becomes his own unit.
He counts as a separate kill point, he doesn't take a morale check if his unit is killed out from under him, etc.
I really do not think you can bring dead ICs back through cult reinforcements.
Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.
I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...
(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)
Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.
Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.
Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.
Special weapons yes, but remember that as soon as an IC is separated from his init for any reason he becomes his own unit.
He counts as a separate kill point, he doesn't take a morale check if his unit is killed out from under him, etc.
I really do not think you can bring dead ICs back through cult reinforcements.
Wasn't talking about ICs. Was talking about squad leaders. Think you got a bit confused there.
Well, I had a game monday with the GSC vs a pretty standard eldar list. @1500 points:
eldar - 2 warlocks and farseer in a council 4 wave serpents 3 with 5 dire avengers in a shrine 1 with 5 wraithguard (d-scythes) crimson hunter double D-cannon wraithknight Fire prism 5x warp spiders 5 pathfinders/rangers (the sniper dudes but without illic)
GSC - First Curse Brood cycle - 21 total acolytes, 31 total neophytes, 10 metamorphs, iconward with relic icon, 8x purestrains all with various upgrades Leman Russ Exterminator - multi meltax2, lascannon
So to start, I rolled a 1 for my cult ambush with the first curse. I had first turn, so the rest of my ambushes i set up fairly aggressively, and had a unit of acolytes with the icon bearer roll a 6 so they set up to charge 2 or 3 of his wave serpents. Then he seized the initiative. Thankfully he wasn't expecting my return to the shadows rule, so while he took a huge chunk out of a lot of my nearby units, he didn't manage first blood.
Through the game, i only rolled one other -6- for cult ambush and it was on the last turn. The 10 metamorphs i brought in got a multi-charge and scored me 4 VP's, plus a 5th for linebreaker. If not for that he'd have beaten me soundly at 9-4 VP's. As it turned out we played to a draw at 9-9. Note - we were doing a purge the alien mission, which i think is GSC's weakest strategy. The cult is far better taking objectives, for the most part, with its ability to pop up at various places on the battlefield.
My takeaways:
MSU is probably better than horde mode, with exception to when summoning. Telepathic summons is awesome. The cult needs more warp dice. Having 2 psykers max in a single Cult Insurrection is very limiting to what can be cast, especially vs Daemons, GK, and Eldar.
To the third point, I am having a rematch vs him today. I cut some upgrades and squad sizes, and added a Broodcoven formation to my army list outside of my main Cult Insurrection. The idea here is to have the broodcoven join the metamorphs so i have 2 hard-hitting melee units.
The patriarch and magus in the CID will roll on the broodmind powers. The patriarch in the broodcoven will roll biomancy and the magus will roll telepathy. This way if i get telepathic summons it will be on a psyker in my cult insurrection, therefore the units will be eligible to use the "without numbers" command benefit.
I'll chime back in later after this rematch and say how it went.
Here's a question - in taking a CAD alongside a Cult Insurrection, would it be better to take a normal patriarch or ghosar?
Ghosar gains hit and run and a familiar but loses a point of strength as well as the ability to roll on biomancy and brood mind (though they may very well FAQ the available trees in the future, and truly I don't think anyone would begrudge you rolling on brood mind, but I like to play as straightforward as possible).
And a follow-up question - I don't know if I can make room for the points but what about sacrificing some upgrades and trading a primus for a (third) patriarch? I don't think it's better than putting the second primus in a second acolyte blob squad to give them hatred (and have a second hatred bubble) especially since I don't have a third squad of stealers to make fearless and create a third fearless bubble.
Today I am trying out a doting throng with 2 cads (2 magus in one and 2 patriarch in second along with 2 first curse. 14 wc I plan to have 2 patriarch in each curse and aim for summoning with the 3 magus. 20 strong neophytes will host a summoning magus and I will spread the others out among the other troops. 4 min squads of acolytes for harassment.
gorgon wrote: The champion claws are what I've been using.
I'm actually going to rip them off those models and a few others, give them to the Metamorphs (I also have more claws in my bits box), and then outfit these with new arms.
gorgon wrote: The champion claws are what I've been using.
I'm actually going to rip them off those models and a few others, give them to the Metamorphs (I also have more claws in my bits box), and then outfit these with new arms.
Why not use those models as they are as part of your GSC army????????????
Those are excellent conversion models!
It would be a crime to break bits off of them.
I'm ordering a couple of boxes of daemonettes just to emulate your conversion idea.
I wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend.
luke1705 wrote: Here's a question - in taking a CAD alongside a Cult Insurrection, would it be better to take a normal patriarch or ghosar?
Ghosar gains hit and run and a familiar but loses a point of strength as well as the ability to roll on biomancy and brood mind (though they may very well FAQ the available trees in the future, and truly I don't think anyone would begrudge you rolling on brood mind, but I like to play as straightforward as possible).
And a follow-up question - I don't know if I can make room for the points but what about sacrificing some upgrades and trading a primus for a (third) patriarch? I don't think it's better than putting the second primus in a second acolyte blob squad to give them hatred (and have a second hatred bubble) especially since I don't have a third squad of stealers to make fearless and create a third fearless bubble.
I think Ghosar is worth it only if you're planning on making a Deathstar of sorts, say with a Broodcoven - otherwise HnR doesn't really outweigh the detriments.
As for a third Patriarch, it depends what you're going for - generally it's better than a Primus, for effectively 40 points you're getting 2 psyker levels and a much nastier character. The only reason I can see to take additional Primuses is either for another Hatred bubble, or (imo more importantly) to allow other Subterranean Uprising units a better chance to get that 6.
I've converted two Magoses (Magi?) out of AM Astropath models, so will have 4 total once I get my second Overkill box. Planning to do similarly with Primuses, gonna convert some out of Commisar models to combat the monopose. But the aim with them is to run 2 in a CAD to add to the 2nd and 3rd unit of 10 claw metamorphs in an uprising.
gorgon wrote: The champion claws are what I've been using.
I'm actually going to rip them off those models and a few others, give them to the Metamorphs (I also have more claws in my bits box), and then outfit these with new arms.
Why not use those models as they are as part of your GSC army????????????
Those are excellent conversion models!
It would be a crime to break bits off of them.
I'm ordering a couple of boxes of daemonettes just to emulate your conversion idea.
I wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend.
Good gravy guys, I'm just altering them, not running through a garbage disposal. Under my old counts-as, those served as my unit leaders. I still want them in that role, but there's no need for them to have 'power klaws' anymore. It'll just be some arm and hand swaps...the end result will look good.
So... Cult Insurrection Detachment gives a nice -1 to enemy reserves. Think adding an Officer of the Fleet (assuming you're already allying in AM) for an extra -1 to enemy reserves is worth it? I was thinking of using a Commissar (HOORAY HERESY) as an HQ, but... -2 to reserves could be sufficiently fun shenanigans to make a CCS worthwhile.
Lansirill wrote: So... Cult Insurrection Detachment gives a nice -1 to enemy reserves. Think adding an Officer of the Fleet (assuming you're already allying in AM) for an extra -1 to enemy reserves is worth it? I was thinking of using a Commissar (HOORAY HERESY) as an HQ, but... -2 to reserves could be sufficiently fun shenanigans to make a CCS worthwhile.
Interisting but most competitive lists will ether just start with everything on the board or have auto 1st Turn reserves (droppods) and any pods that are left in reserves will just come in empty.
Not a bad trick but how much does it cost and besides reserve manupliation what does it give your army?
Lansirill wrote: So... Cult Insurrection Detachment gives a nice -1 to enemy reserves. Think adding an Officer of the Fleet (assuming you're already allying in AM) for an extra -1 to enemy reserves is worth it? I was thinking of using a Commissar (HOORAY HERESY) as an HQ, but... -2 to reserves could be sufficiently fun shenanigans to make a CCS worthwhile.
Interisting but most competitive lists will ether just start with everything on the board or have auto 1st Turn reserves (droppods) and any pods that are left in reserves will just come in empty.
Not a bad trick but how much does it cost and besides reserve manupliation what does it give your army?
A CCS is not pricey and they can take 4 special weapons and dish out orders like ignores cover and tank hunter to guard units.
I absolutely think that is a solid tactic. Some armies will rely on reserves to try to avoid the Cult Ambush, this makes them incredibly unreliable and broken into pieces if they decide to go that route. I still see plenty of reserves, especially when you consider fliers that must start in reserves. It really is not an expensive addition either, especially when you consider how dirt cheap everything in this faction is.
I also like the Ccs idea, and actually what I'd do is just run the Cadian Decurion and bring the minimum requirement of 1 command detachment.
You guessed it, one CCS. Bring something like 2 autocannons if you can (idk if the heavy weapons are only one per Ccs or if you can make all four vets into 2 hwts), add the MOF and an astropath just for an extra cheap psychic die. So total points splash is 115 if I'm remembering the points right. Pretty good for what it brings.
So I think that the -1 to reserves may be better than -2 against most players. -2, and you know not to bother with reserves at all. -1, you hope for lucky dice -- but don't usually get them.
So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
rollawaythestone wrote: So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Go for broke, max unit with plenty of saws and multi assault every fething tank you can while hopefully locking with one other target with minimum models so they can't shoot you. If they don't have vehicles, even better, just start shredding infantry and MC's. The unit won't last but who cares, should take them a full turn minimum to recover from that, meanwhile your other units that didn't get that 6 are ready to assault the next turn while not being focused on.
I think metamorphs are actually best as MSU, run in starting turn two with multiple small units from all directions.
The cadian CCS is perfect with this style list since they won't want to reserve with a -2 to that roll meaning no matter which choice they make your ahead.
rollawaythestone wrote: So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Go for broke, max unit with plenty of saws and multi assault every fething tank you can while hopefully locking with one other target with minimum models so they can't shoot you. If they don't have vehicles, even better, just start shredding infantry and MC's. The unit won't last but who cares, should take them a full turn minimum to recover from that, meanwhile your other units that didn't get that 6 are ready to assault the next turn while not being focused on.
I think metamorphs are actually best as MSU, run in starting turn two with multiple small units from all directions.
The cadian CCS is perfect with this style list since they won't want to reserve with a -2 to that roll meaning no matter which choice they make your ahead.
Yeah, I was thinking a max unit of Acolytes is probably best. Throw a banner in there for +1 WS? Definitely a couple hidden Rocksaws too.
What about adding the Acolyte Leader to the unit, potentially with Lashwhip bonesword? Pricey at +35 pts, but potentially nice to have a couple AP3 attacks at I7 with ID.
rollawaythestone wrote: So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Go for broke, max unit with plenty of saws and multi assault every fething tank you can while hopefully locking with one other target with minimum models so they can't shoot you. If they don't have vehicles, even better, just start shredding infantry and MC's. The unit won't last but who cares, should take them a full turn minimum to recover from that, meanwhile your other units that didn't get that 6 are ready to assault the next turn while not being focused on.
I think metamorphs are actually best as MSU, run in starting turn two with multiple small units from all directions.
The cadian CCS is perfect with this style list since they won't want to reserve with a -2 to that roll meaning no matter which choice they make your ahead.
Yeah, I was thinking a max unit of Acolytes is probably best. Throw a banner in there for +1 WS? Definitely a couple hidden Rocksaws too.
What about adding the Acolyte Leader to the unit, potentially with Lashwhip bonesword? Pricey at +35 pts, but potentially nice to have a couple AP3 attacks at I7 with ID.
To me the upgrades cost are trivial when we get the units for so cheap. I say take the leader, icon and rocksaws.
Heh, that Cadian detachment in the Mont'ka book could work well. Plus, since it's an AM detachment... it would unlock 0-3 Primaris Psykers for extra warp charge. The Emperor's Wrath formation is tempting too... I have a Manticore and 2 Basilisks that would be perfectly happy dropping templates willy nilly. GSC models are cheap enough that if I accidentally scatter onto a few? No big deal.
So many stupid stunts with this army. Gonna be a blast.
Also, is the expectation with Subterranean Uprising that you deploy first turn, return to shadows second turn, and then pop back up (hopefully in a good position) turn 3?
Lansirill wrote: Heh, that Cadian detachment in the Mont'ka book could work well. Plus, since it's an AM detachment... it would unlock 0-3 Primaris Psykers for extra warp charge. The Emperor's Wrath formation is tempting too... I have a Manticore and 2 Basilisks that would be perfectly happy dropping templates willy nilly. GSC models are cheap enough that if I accidentally scatter onto a few? No big deal.
So many stupid stunts with this army. Gonna be a blast.
Also, is the expectation with Subterranean Uprising that you deploy first turn, return to shadows second turn, and then pop back up (hopefully in a good position) turn 3?
I think it's more about being incredibly careful with your deployment. Since you deploy effectively after your opponent it's more about being aware of...
A - whether you have first turn or not.
B - whether there's a good target for a mass rending assault depending on what you roll on the ambush table.
If you roll a respectable amount of 6s then go for broke but be very aware of seizing the initiative.
If you don't, then deploy further back in cover and prepare to dip out or weather the storm if you can't.
People are saying min Hybrids, but max Acolytes? Am I crazy for thinking that it should be reversed?
From a cost efficiency standpoint, it seems like Hybrids are better than Acolytes for close combat in terms of points. In my theory crafting lists, I'm finding acolytes are too pricey once I add in any of the Rock tools. I'm thinking no upgrades or hand flamers for Acolytes, but pimp out the Hybrids as their upgrades are cheap. When ever I try to add Rock tools into the mix with X2 strength, it seems way more prohibitive that the cost of a +2 strength upgrade with Hybrids.
It just seems like the cost of all the upgrades are fro Acolytes are too expensive compared to what I'm getting with Hybrids.
I like a few min acolites squads with one rock saw. At 60 pts it can possably kill just about anything and if it dies no great loss. In my uprising(base) I plan to take 1 10 man metamorphs with claws and 2 hand flamers 120 pts for the primus. 2 5 man metamorphs with claws and 2 5 man acolytes with a rock saw apice. Total 350 points.
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
DoctorEvil wrote:People are saying min Hybrids, but max Acolytes? Am I crazy for thinking that it should be reversed?
From a cost efficiency standpoint, it seems like Hybrids are better than Acolytes for close combat in terms of points. In my theory crafting lists, I'm finding acolytes are too pricey once I add in any of the Rock tools. I'm thinking no upgrades or hand flamers for Acolytes, but pimp out the Hybrids as their upgrades are cheap. When ever I try to add Rock tools into the mix with X2 strength, it seems way more prohibitive that the cost of a +2 strength upgrade with Hybrids.
It just seems like the cost of all the upgrades are fro Acolytes are too expensive compared to what I'm getting with Hybrids.
People were talking about unit sizes - MSU metamorphs and big units of hybrids. I think in general, MSU is definitely the way to go for all units in this army, its one of its big strengths. There are a few exceptions though - I'd definitely run 10-strong units in a sub uprising if hoping to join a primus, don't think I'd go the whole hog to 20 though. Wherever I ran rock saws I'd be inclined to take a unit of 10 though, and again that may as well be in a sub uprising. I guess also neophyte units I intend to hide a Magos in too, but not otherwise as they don't get more special weapons for larger squads.
As for upgrades, I think the cost of metamorphs' ones is simply too good to pass up, 2pts for +2str or +3init is crazy.
DoctorEvil wrote: People are saying min Hybrids, but max Acolytes? Am I crazy for thinking that it should be reversed?
From a cost efficiency standpoint, it seems like Hybrids are better than Acolytes for close combat in terms of points. In my theory crafting lists, I'm finding acolytes are too pricey once I add in any of the Rock tools. I'm thinking no upgrades or hand flamers for Acolytes, but pimp out the Hybrids as their upgrades are cheap. When ever I try to add Rock tools into the mix with X2 strength, it seems way more prohibitive that the cost of a +2 strength upgrade with Hybrids.
It just seems like the cost of all the upgrades are fro Acolytes are too expensive compared to what I'm getting with Hybrids.
However, don't forget in the Insurrection detachment you can bring those rocksaws back if they bite the dust. In addition, those rocksaws are being hidden amongst of blob of rending nastiness.
2 rocksaws is 100 points. Big whoop. It's 100 points that can be brought back through Numbers Beyond Counting and with the bonus dice we're rolling for the Uprising it's got a good chance of getting where we need it to be. I don't mind the Metamorphs but the problem is that they're just as fragile and even with Claws will struggle to get through heavily armoured units. S6 means squat if you're not countering that 2+/3+ save. The rocksaws are reliable AP 2 hidden in a bubble.
Going mid-sized for each though. Sitting around the 7-8 mark with some spare left over if I want to bump numbers to 10 if I feel it's needed.
I observed a friend of mine toying around with GSC yesterday, and the one notable conclusion I can make from the games is that extreme MSU is not the way to go for this army. To really make things suck for your opponent, you need to take advantage of returning D6 guys pretty much at will. 5 wounds at T3, 5+ is just way too easy to wipe with minimal shooting, so I'd run probably 8+ guys per unit. That way, if your opponent wants to wipe the unit, he'll at least have to pick and choose a little bit, rather than pressing the delete button for multiple units at once.
I agree that you should be mixing and matching Metamorphs and saw Acolytes. It's certainly nice to dump a ton of S6 (or 7!) on a unit, but wound volume only goes so far. As others have said, it's too easy to hide a saw in a unit and grind away at whatever ails you, rather than relying on rending. If that's your plan, you'd probably be better off just taking tons of plain Acolytes and swarming everything.
MilkmanAl wrote: I observed a friend of mine toying around with GSC yesterday, and the one notable conclusion I can make from the games is that extreme MSU is not the way to go for this army. To really make things suck for your opponent, you need to take advantage of returning D6 guys pretty much at will. 5 wounds at T3, 5+ is just way too easy to wipe with minimal shooting, so I'd run probably 8+ guys per unit. That way, if your opponent wants to wipe the unit, he'll at least have to pick and choose a little bit, rather than pressing the delete button for multiple units at once.
I agree that you should be mixing and matching Metamorphs and saw Acolytes. It's certainly nice to dump a ton of S6 (or 7!) on a unit, but wound volume only goes so far. As others have said, it's too easy to hide a saw in a unit and grind away at whatever ails you, rather than relying on rending. If that's your plan, you'd probably be better off just taking tons of plain Acolytes and swarming everything.
I think I agree with your observation "if" you are using the Big Cult Formation. If you are just using the Sub Uprising or any of the individual formations min sized units are more attractive.
Also after some number crunching Allieing in bare bones Guard Command squad with a master of the fleet and a Vet squad in a Chimera with carapace and 3 Plasma is only 280pts. Giving opponents -1 on reserves and giving a mobile plasma battery is pretty nice. This also opens you up to adding in a Vendetta or some more specialist tanks or some artillery .
Makes no sense, MSU is literally the best way to play 40k period. Your talking about condensing your army into fewer targets so that you can leave the table for an entire turn in order to randomly regenerate d6 guys that most likely will sit there for another turn. Horrible plan. You want as many targets as possible BECAUSE the units are so delicate, make them overkill the unit.
The Numbers Beyond Counting rule should be used conservatively and considered an additional perk but it should not be changing the way you model your list. But actually the rule also benefits from MSU since you can go to ground more often without worrying about a great deal of points sitting there pinned, and more units equate to more d6 rolls, or more guys. Again though, I'd be hesitant to return to the shadows often since your wasting turns in reserve with an army that does it's heavy lifting in the assault phase. Reserves and assault don't not make good bed fellows, even when considering cult ambush.
The unit upgrades look a lot more appealing since I think that when you return from the shadows, the models that you revive probably retain whatever upgrades you purchased for them (so if a saw died and comes back, he should still have the saw).
That being said, I had my first game last night with the army (had to proxy a few metamorphs since I still am assembling their claws - just need a few more!) and I totally went in the opposite direction. Was at 145 bodies at 1850.
Took a cult insurrection detachment with:
first curse (ML2 patriarch)
brood cycle (min everything except for 20 stealers and claws on the metamorphs)
subterranean uprising:
10 man claw metamorphs w/banner
2 20 man acolyte squads w/banners, 1 rock saw (only 1 total)
CAD with:
Primus
ML2 patriarch
2 min acolyte squads
Played against Raven Guard with a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer and a Sicaran. Had a completely awful set of pre-game rolls. No choosing Ambush result for my gene stealers. Psychic powers were relegated to the primaris powers. I did get the old puppet master power from brood kin but that doesn't affect vehicles and his infantry shooting wasn't much to write home about except a squad of podding dev cents, whom he dropped down in front of my other patriarch, whose squad rolled a 1 on cult ambush :/
His detachment bonus that allowed him to re-roll the "who goes first" roll was also huge, as that got him an extra turn of shooting in before I could assault on turn 2. Having 14 squads and 2 primus-led squads was nice since I was able to roll a ton of dice turn 1 for ambush. Got those sixes, right? Of course! 3 sixes! On 3 40 point acolyte squads! My luck.
Turn 1 he moved a land speeder with two heavy flamers up and roasted a ton of my acolytes in the 20 man squad with the banner and ironward and primus. None of the important guys died, but 7 others did bite the dust. They faded back into the shadows on turn 1 since he has killed so many to push me outside of 6".
He charged and murdered 2 of my min acolyte squads (first blood) that would have charged him on my turn, and the acolytes killed 3 as they went down plus put a wound on his warlord. Not bad. Turn 1 shrouded meant that most of his shooting was ineffectual, and having a lot of leadership 9 or higher with brood cycle is really nice for those morale checks.
My turn 1 was mostly ineffectual except for a very important charge on the land speeder from the third squad of acolytes that had rolled a 6. He moved a little too close to them in his eagerness to roast the giant blob squad and I was able to get the charge off. The 40 point squad with no upgrades benefited from furious charge and hatred, so they were able to do 7 hull points to the land speeder (4 pens) and just for good measure, 3 out of those 4 pens were 5s and 6s, so I would have done 3 hull points to a land raider. In one round of combat.
His turn 2 some of his reserves failed to come in (that minus 1 is so good) but he did have two storm...talons? Hawks? Some formation of two of them with assault cannons and lascannons. They shot up my gene stealer squad with the warlord in it and killed like 5 of them. All game his lascannon hits were on point but he rolled like 5 ones to wound. He charged my metamorph squad of 10 guys with his warlord (artificer armor and lightning claws. Jump pack in an assault squad). The squad was going down, but how many wounds would I do before I went? Well with strength 6, they threw out 10 normal wounds and 4 rends. Since two of the marines had already died, there were only 3 guys and the warlord left. I was feeling pretty good. I made him take the normal saves first so that the regular guys would hopefully die, leaving his warlord to take the rends. He takes 10 Look Out Sirs and passes 5 of them. Yep 5. The normal guys take 5 armor saves and 1 dies. The warlord takes 5 2+ and doesn't care at all. Then he look out sirs the rends, killing off the 2 normal guys, and passes both of his 4+ invuln saves. Womp.
On my turn 2, the roll that changed the game happened. I got back 5 guys who had died in the 20 man acolyte squad as they came in..and they rolled a 6! I was able to multi-assault 4 units, wiping out 3 of them (one was the laser destroyer). The lone survivor? A rhino that refused to take hull points.
My squad of gene stealers w/patriarch by his grav cents were able to shriek and murder them, as well as the drop pod they came with.
After that, his lines were decimated. He tried to charge my acolyte squad with his warlord (and did do a lot of damage, killing 7) but then my primus said "hey did you know that this bonesword is instant death on a 6?" and he rolled a 1 for his armor save. Womp for him. Warlord for me.
The turn after that we knew would be the last turn due to time (but tbh he had very few models left except for the flyers). He was able to achieve one of his maelstrom points, putting him up by 1. But I would have line breaker and he would not, so we were looking at a tie at best. I then was able to achieve all three of the cards I drew, giving me the victory.
Overall thoughts - this army has some definite weaknesses but covers for most of them in the cult insurrection detachment. I think they're a ton of fun to play and can be played decently competitively. You definitely need some way to differentiate between the 9000 different squads and how to know which buffs they have. One good idea I had was I put a 6 dice next to the squads that had rolled a 6 during my deployment so that he would know which ones were dangerous turn 1 to him. One laughable moment during the game was when I thought aloud that it's pretty important for this army to go first in most scenarios since unless you roll a 6, the enemy will get to shoot at you before you assault. And if you go second, they'll shoot at you twice, once without the protection of shrouded. Not a fun time. One person observing the game then asked me, "do they have any way to help them go first more often?" to which I replied "coteaz I guess". He was not amused haha.
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Lansirill wrote: Heh, that Cadian detachment in the Mont'ka book could work well. Plus, since it's an AM detachment... it would unlock 0-3 Primaris Psykers for extra warp charge. The Emperor's Wrath formation is tempting too... I have a Manticore and 2 Basilisks that would be perfectly happy dropping templates willy nilly. GSC models are cheap enough that if I accidentally scatter onto a few? No big deal.
So many stupid stunts with this army. Gonna be a blast.
Also, is the expectation with Subterranean Uprising that you deploy first turn, return to shadows second turn, and then pop back up (hopefully in a good position) turn 3?
You can actually return to the shadows first turn if you don't get a 6 result. Since you're setting up during the infiltrate step, you don't count as moving on that turn, and the only way you can't return to the shadows is if someone is within 6" of you (impossible unless they move closer). Of course, if they do, you could always just wait and assault them on turn 2 for sure haha.
You can actually return to the shadows first turn if you don't get a 6 result. Since you're setting up during the infiltrate step, you don't count as moving on that turn, and the only way you can't return to the shadows is if someone is within 6" of you (impossible unless they move closer). Of course, if they do, you could always just wait and assault them on turn 2 for sure haha.
So actions that occur during set up agent considered part of the first turn? I was thinking that since you deployed using cult ambush, you couldn't return to shadows on the first turn.
If you can do that first turn still, I guess I'm having a pretty damn hard time coming up with a reason to not take the uprising formation... which sucks for my wallet.
If you deploy a squad of devastators, can you shoot at full ballistic skill first turn?
Similarly, forge world chapter tactics for the raptors include giving scout to models as well as rending bolters if they don't move on a given turn. They can infiltrate AND scout and their bolters still rend on turn 1 because they didn't move in the movement phase. Same with us. If you don't get a good result turn 1, rinse and repeat and come in from ongoing reserves turn 2. Just don't get tabled turn 1
While I agree that that's completely legit RAW at the moment, I can see it being the type of thing ruled against in a future FAQ. As far as I'm aware, units that can hop on and off the board (especially when the way they deploy is special) can't do both in the same turn; Mawlocs for example.
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.
Red Corsair wrote: Makes no sense, MSU is literally the best way to play 40k period. Your talking about condensing your army into fewer targets so that you can leave the table for an entire turn in order to randomly regenerate d6 guys that most likely will sit there for another turn. Horrible plan. You want as many targets as possible BECAUSE the units are so delicate, make them overkill the unit.
The Numbers Beyond Counting rule should be used conservatively and considered an additional perk but it should not be changing the way you model your list. But actually the rule also benefits from MSU since you can go to ground more often without worrying about a great deal of points sitting there pinned, and more units equate to more d6 rolls, or more guys. Again though, I'd be hesitant to return to the shadows often since your wasting turns in reserve with an army that does it's heavy lifting in the assault phase. Reserves and assault don't not make good bed fellows, even when considering cult ambush.
I would've agreed with you before I saw that game, but with so many tiny units all over the place, you actually end up obstructing yourself a fair amount - and this was a 1250 game. Units from the subterranean formation(s) have a ~1/3 (11/36) chance to get a 6 when they reappear, so dropping back into the abyss for a turn and regenerating some dudes is a decent strategy when you're out of position. Also, for Acolytes in particular, you're not "hiding" any upgrades when your opponent can just remove the unit wholesale. I don't know that forcing massive overkill is a worthwhile trade-off, except possibly against Tau.
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.
Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.
Here's a question for you all: let's say a Hybrid squad in a Subterranea Uprising takes a Goliath as a transport. All units in the formation gain infiltrate and MUST do so, using the Cult Ambush. Does this include units that don't actually have that rule, such as the trucks, or units who aren't allowed to use the rule, such as units in trucks?
jifel wrote: Here's a question for you all: let's say a Hybrid squad in a Subterranea Uprising takes a Goliath as a transport. All units in the formation gain infiltrate and MUST do so, using the Cult Ambush. Does this include units that don't actually have that rule, such as the trucks, or units who aren't allowed to use the rule, such as units in trucks?
No. A unit that MUST charge but cannot because it arrived from Reserves cannot charge. A unit that MUST set up using Cult Ambush but doesn't have that special rule cannot do so.
So I just played tau....2000pts combing two collection, got slaughter like pigs :p
First not getting first turn is a problem I think if so I should probably null deploy except for out of line of sight stuff. Second be very wary of los as you still need a model in 3 inch so to make look out sirs (He killed everything around the unit to get rid of the first curse.
Also I think tau could be a problem for this army.
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.
Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.
Ok chill man. Just because YOU know something doesn't mean that everyone does. People come here for ideas on tactics and lists, not to get berated about something you think they should know
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.
Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.
Ok chill man. Just because YOU know something doesn't mean that everyone does. People come here for ideas on tactics and lists, not to get berated about something you think they should know
I didn't berate someone for not knowing something, I berated someone for repeating something that we all know already because it's been said approximately 1000 times since the book came out a week ago and every single time misses the obvious fething point that people are just running another Formation or CAD on the side.
I didn't berate someone for not knowing something, I berated someone for repeating something that we all know already because it's been said approximately 1000 times since the book came out a week ago and every single time misses the obvious fething point that people are just running another Formation or CAD on the side.
Ok you're right. My bad. I'll contact the mods and let them know that rollawaythestone isn't keeping up with toy soldiers to your personal standards. May God have mercy on his soul.
rollawaythestone wrote:So in a Subterranean Uprising lead by the Primus - one unit he joins gets 3 dice to roll on Cult Ambush. What unit do people think he should join? A max unit of Metamorphs? Or a max unit of Acolytes? This unit has the greatest chances of getting a turn 1 charge - do you go for a big horde of 20 acolytes to tie things up more effectively and drown things in rending attacks? Or do you go more elite and hit hard with Str 6 claws - but you are more vulnerable with less bodies. Thoughts?
Why choose? Take multiple Primuses so you get several squads rolling 3 dice, that's certainly what I intend to do :p.
The Cult Insurrection limits you to a single Patriarch, Primus, and Magus.
Yeah, good job, everyone is aware of this. What people are apparently not aware of, is the fact that there's nothing stopping you from taking multiple Detachments, which causes annoying comments like yours to crop up in literally every discussion about Genestealer Cult Lists. Please stop doing that.
What rule is "be polite?" Is that #1? I think it's 1.
Anyway, moving on from things people should have learned in 3rd grade, I'm wondering how to properly equip these squads with upgrades. When I built my army, I started out with the formations that I wanted to use and then just added the upgrades as I had points for them, which was not a lot TBH. Is there a way to protect a squad with say 8 rock saws? Because it's pretty unique that we could have a unit of 20 guys that have 8 chainfists, or something like that. Clearly overkill for literally anything, but how do we protect a squad that has 2 or 4 heavy hitters? I feel like focus fire would just bring them down.
luke1705 wrote: Anyway, moving on from things people should have learned in 3rd grade, I'm wondering how to properly equip these squads with upgrades. When I built my army, I started out with the formations that I wanted to use and then just added the upgrades as I had points for them, which was not a lot TBH. Is there a way to protect a squad with say 8 rock saws? Because it's pretty unique that we could have a unit of 20 guys that have 8 chainfists, or something like that. Clearly overkill for literally anything, but how do we protect a squad that has 2 or 4 heavy hitters? I feel like focus fire would just bring them down.
The only thing I can think of is maby an iconward for fnp and pray for a 6 on the chart or for your warlord trait. We really have no way of protecting a unit that large. I feel that cheap 10 man units are the way to go. Big enough not to casually get defeated but small enough to hide if your ambush roll goes badly. Also just don't pay for upgrades pay for psychers and summoned the units with all the upgrades.
I think units of 7-10, with no more than 2-3 expensive upgrades per squad, are going to be optimal as a general rule for the codex. Cheaper upgrades like flamers may be worth it on the entire squad, depending on the squad's role.
In particular you want at least 7 so you don't feel you've wasted your bonus free dudes when you roll a "6" on how many are coming back from the dead.
Yeah, I think the principal reason they can take so many special weapons is that it would be largely impractical ever to use them. Gsc heavy weapons suffer from the same issue ork power klaws do- the upgrade is only as reliable as the body holding it, and beyond turn 1 shrouded GSC don't have good defensive buffs.
If I'm going to be taking unwieldy high strength weaponry, I think I'll be reaching for small squads of Aberrants backed up by an icon ward. That will at least be able to stand up to small arms and won't get taken down in swathes by flamers.
I think acolyte squads for me are going to stay cheap and small, and I'll lean on their naturally cost-effective melee statline to keep them a threat.
10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.
Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......
Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.
10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.
Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......
Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.
Yeah I'm thinking that this is a real gem of a discipline. Fishing for invis is nice but you could definitely not get it, and everything except for 1 power on broodmind is good.
I brought a side CAD to get 2 more ML (patriarch) and I may be able to make room for a magus in the detachment to get another 3 WC. I do believe, however, that a second primus is too good to pass up on. Hatred and that third roll for the subterranean assault formation is amazing. Definitely won me the first game I played. Hmmm points.....
10 Acolytes 3 Rocksaws, 1 Demo charge, Leader w LW/BS, Icon bearer, all (except the Rocksaws and demo charge) with hand flamers. Thats 245pts if I'm remembering correctly and it cult infiltrates to boot.
Imagine doing this 3 time in a game ......
Now I know you will say it's only one in 6 to get the power but with the crouchling you have a better than 50% to get it and many people are taking an extra Min troop CAD to grab an extra pair of Magus or Patriarch which is more chances to get it. None of the powers are bad even so if you fish for Summoning and don't get it it's no real loss.
Yeah I'm thinking that this is a real gem of a discipline. Fishing for invis is nice but you could definitely not get it, and everything except for 1 power on broodmind is good.
I brought a side CAD to get 2 more ML (patriarch) and I may be able to make room for a magus in the detachment to get another 3 WC. I do believe, however, that a second primus is too good to pass up on. Hatred and that third roll for the subterranean assault formation is amazing. Definitely won me the first game I played. Hmmm points.....
Skimp on upgrades to get a few extra points for the Magus and hope to summon the units with the upgrades?
My issue with fishing for a summons, is that it isn't a great thing to go for if you are using the Cult Insurrection Detachment, as generally you only get a max of 4 warp charges, and against any list with decent amount of Psy you are risking getting counted (on the basis you are getting enough dice in the psy phase to pull it off)
Generally you just go for CADs and/or formations for a summon list.
did see on another forum an 1850 summon list that just consisted of multiple Cads with Neophytes and Magus
Red Corsair wrote: Makes no sense, MSU is literally the best way to play 40k period. Your talking about condensing your army into fewer targets so that you can leave the table for an entire turn in order to randomly regenerate d6 guys that most likely will sit there for another turn. Horrible plan. You want as many targets as possible BECAUSE the units are so delicate, make them overkill the unit.
The Numbers Beyond Counting rule should be used conservatively and considered an additional perk but it should not be changing the way you model your list. But actually the rule also benefits from MSU since you can go to ground more often without worrying about a great deal of points sitting there pinned, and more units equate to more d6 rolls, or more guys. Again though, I'd be hesitant to return to the shadows often since your wasting turns in reserve with an army that does it's heavy lifting in the assault phase. Reserves and assault don't not make good bed fellows, even when considering cult ambush.
I have to agree with this. Basically, Return to the Shadows strikes me as something to be used in a certain number of situations.
First - A Bad Turn One - you get no results that let you get close enough to assault or you lose the initiative and end up getting chunks taken out of your units. In this case you dip out, get your 1D6 models back and hope for the best on your second attempt to ambush.
Second - Objective Shenanigans - this requires some forward planning. Basically on Turn 4 you want to be able to safely dip out a few units to gamble them cropping back up on top of objectives if you can, or at least close enough to contest them. Best units for this are your backliners who would never get close enough in the first place.
Third - MSU recovery phase. MSU is great because it's a saturation of threats which forces your enemy to pick and choose. Cults can get away with some padding cause. let's face it, we're fragile. I'd say this is the least viable use of Returning in the Cult Insurrection detachment unless you really want to deny kill points or something like that - in which case, chances are you are pulling off units with 1 or 2 models remaining and hoping for a nice D6 roll to get back toward full strength.
First seems to be similar to Third, but also our answer to Alpha strike armies. Seize the Initiative is something we have to be crazily aware of in particular and maybe something that should make us deploy a bit more defensively where we can. (Because seriously, the units you have that you are going to likely be going aggro with are Purestrains, Acolytes and Metamorphs, all of whom get Shrouded first turn from the cult insurrection detachment due to having Infiltrate already -for the Acolytes it's from Subterranean uprising. Don't know why you'd field anything else for Acolytes!) Having initiative seized by Tau or Eldar would seriously ruin our day.
Now, I can see the benefit of having some 'bigger' units...
Mainly if you plan on using the unit as a bodyguard unit of sorts for a character. Unquestioning loyalty is a nasty ability for sure. Especially as you can pick and choose the wounds to LOS as well. Does it cause instant death or some other horrible debilitating effect cause your enemy rolled the 6 to wound/on the D chart/etc? Guess generic Neophyte number 2125454545 gets to eat that one.
20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.
At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.
If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.
the main issue with the Return to the Shadows, is that if your opponent plays well, you wont get many chances to use it effectively as you need to be more then 6" away from an enemy model.
It is great for 1st turn if you want to do a kinda 2 wave attack with Cult ambush, but I predict you wont get a great deal of use from it during a game unless you manage to wipe out a flank
20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.
At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.
If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.
I actually disagree. While I like the First Curse formation a lot, and would take multiple within a Cult Insurrection Detachment if I could, I think that maxing out the squad inside the brood cycle is substantially better than taking a second first curse outside of the mega detachment. For the first curse, you get: random mutation. Inside brood cycle, you get: WS 7 if within 6" of one of the 17 other units from Brood Cycle, shrouded turn 1 and coming back with d6 more guys if you lose some and need to re-deploy. This is especially valuable since most good opponents will try to focus them down if they can, and the first two times I've played with that squad.....rolled a 1 on cult ambush turn 1 :/ I know that's situational but it happens to them more than most other units as they have no form of mitigating a bad roll (in my list, my warlord patriarch is with the first curse formation inside the mega detachment, so I won't ever even get the warlord trait result)
Should clarify though - there's no reason not to take first curse if you are taking 20 stealers. Patriarch is an auto include in any army list IMO. My comment was for taking a SECOND first curse haha. First First Curse is always good
20 Purestrains sounds costly but when you stick a Patriarch in there...that's 20 free wounds with a 5+ invuln save to fob stuff off to.
At which point you may as well not have taken 20 Purestrains as part of a Brood Cycle. Seriously, take 5 there. Treat it as a tax.
If you're taking a blob of 20 Purestrains as a Patriarch bodyguard just man up and take First Curse. That way the Purestrains get a buff for their being that many.
I actually disagree. While I like the First Curse formation a lot, and would take multiple within a Cult Insurrection Detachment if I could, I think that maxing out the squad inside the brood cycle is substantially better than taking a second first curse outside of the mega detachment. For the first curse, you get: random mutation. Inside brood cycle, you get: WS 7 if within 6" of one of the 17 other units from Brood Cycle, shrouded turn 1 and coming back with d6 more guys if you lose some and need to re-deploy. This is especially valuable since most good opponents will try to focus them down if they can, and the first two times I've played with that squad.....rolled a 1 on cult ambush turn 1 :/ I know that's situational but it happens to them more than most other units as they have no form of mitigating a bad roll (in my list, my warlord patriarch is with the first curse formation inside the mega detachment, so I won't ever even get the warlord trait result)
Should clarify though - there's no reason not to take first curse if you are taking 20 stealers. Patriarch is an auto include in any army list IMO. My comment was for taking a SECOND first curse haha. First First Curse is always good
Thought as much. Seems you got a bit confused.
I'd still rather take Purestrains either as Scuttlers or as First Curse. Too much tax with the Brood Cycle subtracting from the numbers I can take in my Subterranean Uprising.
Demolition Claw (340)
5 Hybrid Acolytes /w 1x Demolition Charge, 1x Heavy Rock Saw (85)
5 Hybrid Acolytes /w 1x Demolition Charge, 1x Heavy Rock Saw (85)
1 Goliath Rockgrinder /w Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges (85)
1 Goliath Rockgrinder /w Heavy Seismic Cannon, Cache of Demolition Charges (85)
This more or less gives me all of the toys I want, has 16 infantry units that can Cult Ambush and hopefully enough redundancy to cover the loss of any one formation. It's a little light on AA, which is why I've brought some Autocannon/Grenade Launcher PDF Neophytes along for the ride (and if we get Relentless then the Seismic Cannon unit is a great target for that.
The only unit I've not gone minimalist on is the Primus' unit of Metamorphs; this is one unit I want to be able to absorb a bit of overwatch and ensure it has enough numbers to survive a turn of shooting (as much as possible) and Return to the Shadows to replenish itself. I'm also sold on the whips rather than the claws. Initiative 7 is awesome, and wit their silly number of attacks I am thinking they can handle a lot of enemies before they even get hit.
The Demolition Claw is the one part I am a bit up in the air on. It's an amazingly cool concept (the grin on the Hybrid's face with the explosives is just so Crazy Ivan from Red Alert 2...) but just having two tanks in such a big list puts a massive target on them (the Rockgrinders won't get infiltrate, right?). They could be swapped for a number of non-vehicle units...
- Additional Autocannon Neophytes?
- More Metamorphs (with Claws this time) for the Uprising?
- Aberrants for the Uprising?
- Bulking out all the Acolyte units a bit?
Is that you only really get a benefit from it by having the duders next to the trucks (and some duders in them)
but they are not fast vehicles and/or don't infiltrate and unless you are packing a Leman Russ or two they are the target for all anti tank
How do people feel utilizing Overkill GSC with their GSC army?
Hopefully they feel good about it, I just bought Overkill for the GSC models!
I also am nearly done painting my first Goliath truck. I'm starting to balk at the volume of models needed for this army given the dollar cost of the kits. Is there a "non-horde" way to run this army effectively?
Hopefully they feel good about it, I just bought Overkill for the GSC models!
I also am nearly done painting my first Goliath truck. I'm starting to balk at the volume of models needed for this army given the dollar cost of the kits. Is there a "non-horde" way to run this army effectively?
I mean the formations and units that got released in WD
You can pretty much run Mechanised Guard as GSC with the Neophyte Cavalcade
The GSC from Overkill is the best way to start as it gives you the Patriarch, familiars, Primus, and Magus and you can't buy the latter 2 separately yet. The Neophytes have Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers I believe which is half good! Heh
I, too, am feeling pretty daunted with having to buy like 7+ boxes of a mix of Acolytes, Neophytes, and Metamorphs... I also mould line everything like crazy so it's looking like a good year until I'll even have this done!
Is that you only really get a benefit from it by having the duders next to the trucks (and some duders in them)
but they are not fast vehicles and/or don't infiltrate and unless you are packing a Leman Russ or two they are the target for all anti tank
Are you missing that the whole formation gets Tank Hunter? It's a very simple, and pretty solid, buff. Basicaly lets you run the hybrids naked and have them be as threatening to most tanks as a squad with an AT weapon upgrade, gives you Tank Hunting heavy seismic cannons on the grinders, and Tank Hunting autocannons if youw ant them on DT Goliaths.
Okay fellow cultists, here's another anecdotal game recap.
I rematched my Eldar playing opponent, to settle our last battle which ended in a draw. Our lists were largely similar in composition, but each with a few different upgrades than before.
His list:
5 wraithguard with d-scythes, in a wave serpent
3x5 dire avengers (shrine formation) in wave serpents
fire prism
warlock council (2 warlocks and a farseer on foot)
5x rangers
wraithknight, sword and shield, 2 scatter lasers
I took the broodcoven outside of the cult insurrection detachment, so they did not benefit from shrouded turn 1, +1 reserves, or reinforcements (which they wouldn't anyway all being 1 model units).
Psychic powers - I rolled broodmind for my psykers within the cult insurrection, so their units could potentially benefit from the reinforcements rule if they got summoning. Which both did, as well as +1 str and mind control, and a couple others i forget because i mostly tried summoning each turn.
On the patriarch in the broodcoven i rolled biomancy, which he got endurance and enfeeble. The magus rolled telepathy and he got invisibility and hallucination.
Deployment went much the same as last time - I won first turn and deployed the leman russ centrally behind some ruins. The rest of my army was set up using cult ambush. He turtled again in the upper right corner of the board (my POV) with his wave serpents ahead of his snipers, and his fire prism furthest away. The wraithknight was in the center of his tanks. I started rolling for cult ambush and got a "6" on the metamorphs that had the broodcoven attached, a unit of 5 acolytes, and a unit of 6 acolytes. everything else either got outflank (first curse) or one of the close-up infiltrates which i then plopped onto objectives.
He rolled to seize and did not.
First turn shooting did nothing but to make a wave serpent jink from a mining laser. I managed to get the metamorphs and broodcoven into combat with the wraithknight and killed it through massive amounts of rending (hatred and preferred enemy really make rending claws superb). I wrecked a wave serpent with one squad of my acolytes, and the other squad immobilized and destroyed one of the weapons on another. His return fire destroyed most of my metamorphs,. and 2 of my acolyte squads.
Without droning on as the details are a bit fuzzy, the overall game went like this: My turn i'd summon a unit or two, get to objectives i needed for the maelstrom, and kill or immobilize a skimmer. His turn he'd kill one or two of my units through shooting, and steal an objective if he needed it with obsec. Then back to my turn where another unit would go and kill the unit he stole my objective with, summon more to place on other objectives, and so on and so forth.
I ended up winning 15-9, counting first blood, warlord, and linebreaker.
Bottom line from my 2 full games with the cult so far - Kill point missions are defnitely a weakness of the army, but the other 11/12 missions that utilize objectives or tactical objectives the army will do exceedingly well. Also with cult ambush a few key surprise charges from melee units can quickly turn a battle that is going poorly into a landslide victory.
I took the broodcoven outside of the cult insurrection detachment, so they did not benefit from shrouded turn 1, +1 reserves, or reinforcements (which they wouldn't anyway all being 1 model units).
This is interesting. Everyone in my gaming group read this the completely opposite way. The 3 ICs are a unit. It specifically tells you in the formation. Therefore, if 2 of them die and they Return to shadows, it gives you permission to return d6 models in a unit with this special rule. IIRC, they all have it and would return back 1-2 full wound models. This also could bring back your Warlord (aka Patriarch). I would have to reread StW, but I'm pretty sure it says if the Warlord is dead at the end of the game, the enemy receives the points for StW. If it comes back, they might not even get the bonus points at all.
That eldar list is either unbound or you are forgetting something. He literally only has 1 troop, the rangers in that list since the DA are from a shrine. His list can only be taken as a CAD since he doesn't have any of the 3 core choices from the eldar book, yet again I only see the single troop.
Red Corsair wrote: That eldar list is either unbound or you are forgetting something. He literally only has 1 troop, the rangers in that list since the DA are from a shrine. His list can only be taken as a CAD since he doesn't have any of the 3 core choices from the eldar book, yet again I only see the single troop.
This - it doesn't even meet the requirements for a Pale Courts Battlehost as his Core so it's not like we can rule that either.
I took the broodcoven outside of the cult insurrection detachment, so they did not benefit from shrouded turn 1, +1 reserves, or reinforcements (which they wouldn't anyway all being 1 model units).
This is interesting. Everyone in my gaming group read this the completely opposite way. The 3 ICs are a unit. It specifically tells you in the formation. Therefore, if 2 of them die and they Return to shadows, it gives you permission to return d6 models in a unit with this special rule. IIRC, they all have it and would return back 1-2 full wound models. This also could bring back your Warlord (aka Patriarch). I would have to reread StW, but I'm pretty sure it says if the Warlord is dead at the end of the game, the enemy receives the points for StW. If it comes back, they might not even get the bonus points at all.
I read it as forcing them to join eachother to form a single unit blob of IC. ICs are units in of themselves and while the are forced to blob together in that fornation I do not believe they lose their individual statuses of IC thus making them a unit in of themselves. Does the formation day they count as a single unit for all intents and purposes like the Deathwatch kill teams do?
Noctem wrote: The GSC from Overkill is the best way to start as it gives you the Patriarch, familiars, Primus, and Magus and you can't buy the latter 2 separately yet. The Neophytes have Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers I believe which is half good! Heh
I, too, am feeling pretty daunted with having to buy like 7+ boxes of a mix of Acolytes, Neophytes, and Metamorphs... I also mould line everything like crazy so it's looking like a good year until I'll even have this done!
As someone who did buy 7+ boxes of acolytes, the mould lines really aren't that bad. Took like a day to assemble everything (10 neophytes and 45 acolytes, plus 24 overwatch acolytes). I mean, it was a DAY haha but it's not too bad overall.
First turn shooting did nothing but to make a wave serpent jink from a mining laser. I managed to get the metamorphs and broodcoven into combat with the wraithknight and killed it through massive amounts of rending (hatred and preferred enemy really make rending claws superb).
Wait how did you give them preferred enemy (the metamorphs) or are you talking about the brood coven?
I took the broodcoven outside of the cult insurrection detachment, so they did not benefit from shrouded turn 1, +1 reserves, or reinforcements (which they wouldn't anyway all being 1 model units).
This is interesting. Everyone in my gaming group read this the completely opposite way. The 3 ICs are a unit. It specifically tells you in the formation. Therefore, if 2 of them die and they Return to shadows, it gives you permission to return d6 models in a unit with this special rule. IIRC, they all have it and would return back 1-2 full wound models. This also could bring back your Warlord (aka Patriarch). I would have to reread StW, but I'm pretty sure it says if the Warlord is dead at the end of the game, the enemy receives the points for StW. If it comes back, they might not even get the bonus points at all.
I read it as forcing them to join eachother to form a single unit blob of IC. ICs are units in of themselves and while the are forced to blob together in that fornation I do not believe they lose their individual statuses of IC thus making them a unit in of themselves. Does the formation day they count as a single unit for all intents and purposes like the Deathwatch kill teams do?
The wording is: "The three models of a Broodcoven must be deployed as a single unit." Which to my mind means they're just forced together, not that they ARE a single unit as per non-ICs. It goes on to say that if one leaves a unit they were all in, "all other Broodcoven models must also leave that unit and they must form back into a new unit comprised of ICs again." Which to me backs that up. I think it's hard to argue that the wording supports a regenerating Broodcoven - the fluff certainly doesn't either, a rule called "Numbers Beyond Counting" shouldn't apply to models you're only meant to have one of!
First turn shooting did nothing but to make a wave serpent jink from a mining laser. I managed to get the metamorphs and broodcoven into combat with the wraithknight and killed it through massive amounts of rending (hatred and preferred enemy really make rending claws superb).
Wait how did you give them preferred enemy (the metamorphs) or are you talking about the brood coven?
The Broodcoven Primus has PE - and PE confers to the unit.
In other news, been building my first 10 (of at least 35) metamorphs today, all with claws. Used some Tyranid Warrior/Ravener Rending claws and Hive Guard crushing claws (with the arm trimmed down to make them not so ludicriously big). The big RCs fit really well - the Hive Guard claws are a bit big, especially compared to the CCs in the acolyte box, but they do look pretty decent. With either, the metamorphs look more distinct from acolytes than the ones you can actually build in the box!
Is that you only really get a benefit from it by having the duders next to the trucks (and some duders in them)
but they are not fast vehicles and/or don't infiltrate and unless you are packing a Leman Russ or two they are the target for all anti tank
I agree to an extent, but as I said earlier, I think the role for the Demo Claw is midfield and DZ control, so you're probably not going to be moving them super far. You have more than enough units to apply early close-range pressure, so anything that evades that is likely going to be coming towards you fairly quickly. The target priority shift is a much bigger issue than their speed and short range, to me. If you don't have a whole bunch of hulls (a second Demo Claw, for instance!), the Grinders are obviously going to take a bunch of heavy weaponry to the face and get wrecked in short order. Considering that you're dependent on the Grinders for a big part of what makes the formation cool, that's clearly not going to work out well. I love the mobile seismic cannon and demo-toting acolytes, but is that firepower better than comparably-pointed neophytes? I'm not sure what I think yet. A basic Demo claw with 2x5 acolytes with demo charges, 2 Goliaths (with tank hunter, too good to not take, IMO), and 2 seismic Grinders is 390 points. You can basically have 4.5 units of 10 Neophytes with mining lasers and grenade launchers for that. Is the latter better? It's probably more reliable, and it keeps heavy weapons from becoming useful. It doesn't dish out nearly as much (admittedly micro-ranged) firepower, though. That's certainly one worth testing out on the table a time or two.
Noctem wrote: The GSC from Overkill is the best way to start as it gives you the Patriarch, familiars, Primus, and Magus and you can't buy the latter 2 separately yet. The Neophytes have Mining Lasers and Grenade Launchers I believe which is half good! Heh
I, too, am feeling pretty daunted with having to buy like 7+ boxes of a mix of Acolytes, Neophytes, and Metamorphs... I also mould line everything like crazy so it's looking like a good year until I'll even have this done!
As someone who did buy 7+ boxes of acolytes, the mould lines really aren't that bad. Took like a day to assemble everything (10 neophytes and 45 acolytes, plus 24 overwatch acolytes). I mean, it was a DAY haha but it's not too bad overall.
That's some insanely fast mouldline work! Was it pretty hasty for each one? I'm pretty OCD when it comes to them and get them all off so it takes a while per model =(
Metamorphs all had claws, Hybrids had some hand Flamers mixed in.
Played against a Triptide EWO, Seer Council and CAD with jetbikes, spiders and a WK. Ended up going 3-0 and was super impressed with the list. Game 1 I went second. Infiltrated out of range of his army then didn't try to seize. I Returned to the shadow with the whole army and flew off the table, turn 2 I murdered a fortuned seer council and warp spiders, totally caught him off guard what I could do. Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds, rends did the rest. Mop up from there. Game 2 I went first and put every single unit in his face. Got 7 units able to charge turn 1! He then seized. TripTide all ripple fired and shot twice, he killed 6 units, and the Primus, and the Iconward, as well as a flyrant. (Two D guns, 2 hits, 2 6s ) I ran away with return to the shadows. My last charging unit alive hit a riptide and solo'd it, was awesome. Ended up hiding and popping around, charging at opportunity. Won turn 5 with shenanigans as I popped up and got objectives, tied maelstrom with a late 3 pointer (ITC missions) and the game ended. Yikes! Turn 3 I finally went first without getting seized on. killed two tides turn 1 with assaults and tied up the third. Popped up and killed Warp Spiders and Jetbikes as they appeared. Flyrants focused down the Council eventually, WK died to mass rending but killed no less than 6 squads doing so!!!!
Lessons overall: Iconward and Primus are both really easy to focus out, I'm debating taking one or two larger squads as meat shields. Auto pass LoS is amazing. MSU is super good with 6s charging, and the ground support is amazing for flyrants. I can move around so quickly and give high priority targets. Damage output is ungodly! I didn't use any GSC psykers but that's next.
jifel wrote: Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds
I assume you're running Sword of the Void's Eye on him then for +1 Strength otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do ID wounds to the WK at all.
Unlike Tyranids we don't have a special ruling that allows GSC to stack the effects of two weapons like that (exception being if just having the weapon gives a raw stat buff like Metamorph weapons) - so you'd have to choose between the Bonesword or the Toxin Injector Rending Claws in assault.
jifel wrote: Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds
I assume you're running Sword of the Void's Eye on him then for +1 Strength otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do ID wounds to the WK at all.
Unlike Tyranids we don't have a special ruling that allows GSC to stack the effects of two weapons like that (exception being if just having the weapon gives a raw stat buff like Metamorph weapons) - so you'd have to choose between the Bonesword or the Toxin Injector Rending Claws in assault.
It's actually quite easy to get him to S5 via furious charge from an iconward's banner, or the +1 Str and Rage psychic power.
Red Corsair wrote: That eldar list is either unbound or you are forgetting something. He literally only has 1 troop, the rangers in that list since the DA are from a shrine. His list can only be taken as a CAD since he doesn't have any of the 3 core choices from the eldar book, yet again I only see the single troop.
This - it doesn't even meet the requirements for a Pale Courts Battlehost as his Core so it's not like we can rule that either.
It was probably just an unbound army. We do full RAW here and nobody seems to mind it as the games shake out prettymuch even. With all the command benefits and bonuses formations give nowadays, running an unbound list and not getting any command benefits is usually more of a drawback than a bonus.
jifel wrote: Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds
I assume you're running Sword of the Void's Eye on him then for +1 Strength otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do ID wounds to the WK at all.
Unlike Tyranids we don't have a special ruling that allows GSC to stack the effects of two weapons like that (exception being if just having the weapon gives a raw stat buff like Metamorph weapons) - so you'd have to choose between the Bonesword or the Toxin Injector Rending Claws in assault.
Tetrisphreak has it right, I happened to have furious charge from an Iconward.
jifel wrote: Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds
I assume you're running Sword of the Void's Eye on him then for +1 Strength otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do ID wounds to the WK at all.
Unlike Tyranids we don't have a special ruling that allows GSC to stack the effects of two weapons like that (exception being if just having the weapon gives a raw stat buff like Metamorph weapons) - so you'd have to choose between the Bonesword or the Toxin Injector Rending Claws in assault.
Tetrisphreak has it right, I happened to have furious charge from an Iconward.
Pretty sweet outcome even if it's anecdotal and not very reproducible. Did the primus live?
I've really been appreciating how cool and different the play style of this army is compared to others out there. It's what makes this a really fun release (outside very cool models).
One of the big challenges I see is getting full games in a timed setting. My force org I'm basically planning is a first curse, brood cycle, subterranean uprising and doting throng. With this there are a ton of units that are going in and out of deployment with a lot of overlapping bonuses. I know I'm preaching to the choir but it's something we need to consider in a timed tournament setting. One way I tackle this in other armies is focus on certain aspects of the game and not try to be in all phases (psychic, combat, shooting, etc.).
Some elements I am considering to try and keep the game moving as well as not overwhelming my opponent with tons of questions or uncertainties (like thinking we're pulling fast ones).
1. Creating tokens to help with bookkeeping, bonuses and deployment. This could be a thread all in itself, and I think it would be a great community project we can share
2. Adding a few more bigger units rather then total MSU 3. Making sure units are spammed rather then unique wargear/biomorphs on every unit to streamline the decision making process
4. Unique unit markings or other identification to quickly tell which formation each unit belongs to.
5. Deployment trays to quickly pull units on and off the board while they are cycling.
I may be overplaying this concern but I am a big proponent of getting full games in a tournament setting and I can see there are a lot of challenges with this army.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I've really been appreciating how cool and different the play style of this army is compared to others out there. It's what makes this a really fun release (outside very cool models).
One of the big challenges I see is getting full games in a timed setting. My force org I'm basically planning is a first curse, brood cycle, subterranean uprising and doting throng. With this there are a ton of units that are going in and out of deployment with a lot of overlapping bonuses. I know I'm preaching to the choir but it's something we need to consider in a timed tournament setting. One way I tackle this in other armies is focus on certain aspects of the game and not try to be in all phases (psychic, combat, shooting, etc.).
Some elements I am considering to try and keep the game moving as well as not overwhelming my opponent with tons of questions or uncertainties (like thinking we're pulling fast ones).
1. Creating tokens to help with bookkeeping, bonuses and deployment. This could be a thread all in itself, and I think it would be a great community project we can share
2. Adding a few more bigger units rather then total MSU 3. Making sure units are spammed rather then unique wargear/biomorphs on every unit to streamline the decision making process
4. Unique unit markings or other identification to quickly tell which formation each unit belongs to.
5. Deployment trays to quickly pull units on and off the board while they are cycling.
I may be overplaying this concern but I am a big proponent of getting full games in a tournament setting and I can see there are a lot of challenges with this army.
Cheers,
Brian
I can attest that marking squads with tokens is an amazing help in bookkeeping.
jifel wrote: Primus hit the WK and got 2 6s for 5 wounds
I assume you're running Sword of the Void's Eye on him then for +1 Strength otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do ID wounds to the WK at all.
Unlike Tyranids we don't have a special ruling that allows GSC to stack the effects of two weapons like that (exception being if just having the weapon gives a raw stat buff like Metamorph weapons) - so you'd have to choose between the Bonesword or the Toxin Injector Rending Claws in assault.
Tetrisphreak has it right, I happened to have furious charge from an Iconward.
Pretty sweet outcome even if it's anecdotal and not very reproducible. Did the primus live?
Not reproducible at all but it was amazing! And no, the Primus died a horrible death. Got charged by two Riptides and beaten to death after SMS killed his squad out from under him.
hisshers wrote: I feel alone in the camp of liking the CAD more than all the detachments and formations :(
Your not alone. The more I crunch the numbers I am thinking a CAD may be just as good if not better. You can always return to the shadows your first turn with multiple units, and having obsec on units that can pop up anywhere seems insanely strong actually. I am thinking a mix is in order honestly. Take an uprising for shock and awe but back it up with a CAD chuck full of fearless neophytes with obsec dedicated transports.
hisshers wrote: I feel alone in the camp of liking the CAD more than all the detachments and formations :(
Your not alone. The more I crunch the numbers I am thinking a CAD may be just as good if not better. You can always return to the shadows your first turn with multiple units, and having obsec on units that can pop up anywhere seems insanely strong actually. I am thinking a mix is in order honestly. Take an uprising for shock and awe but back it up with a CAD chuck full of fearless neophytes with obsec dedicated transports.
I think if you're right about the mixed approach - your flimsier footslogging units in the formation get free models when they return to the shadows, making them more survivable, and your troops in the CAD can get obsec transports and can still pop up anywhere and obsec some objectives.
hisshers wrote: I feel alone in the camp of liking the CAD more than all the detachments and formations :(
I'm thinking a mix of formations and CAD for pure GSC.
Considering how good our psychic powers can be, I think the more Warp Charge the better, hence I think tacking on a CAD with a Magus and/or Patriarch plus min troops is a very strong move, especially considering, as Crystal-Maze says, Return to the Shadows and Obsec is a very powerful combination.
In an army where I'm bringing in allies though, I think that extra CAD faces stiff competition from allying in Flyrants. Flyrants are a great choice and, as jifel says, they really appreciate the ground support from GSC; I think they make a powerful combo. If I can fit all three in though...
hisshers wrote: I feel alone in the camp of liking the CAD more than all the detachments and formations :(
I'm thinking a mix of formations and CAD for pure GSC.
Considering how good our psychic powers can be, I think the more Warp Charge the better, hence I think tacking on a CAD with a Magus and/or Patriarch plus min troops is a very strong move, especially considering, as Crystal-Maze says, Return to the Shadows and Obsec is a very powerful combination.
In an army where I'm bringing in allies though, I think that extra CAD faces stiff competition from allying in Flyrants. Flyrants are a great choice and, as jifel says, they really appreciate the ground support from GSC; I think they make a powerful combo. If I can fit all three in though...
In my tyranids, I ran minimum genestealer broods with a broodlord in each; lots of them. I'm currently considering upgrading those stealers to purestrains, and the broodlords to patriarchs, and adding in several allied detatchments that look something like:
For 34 pts more than my old 5 genestealers + Broodlord units, I get return to the shadows, an extra genestealer and access to a truly terrifying set of psychic powers.
Or do people think that magi are a better route to go for increasing our psychic dice pool?
For pure GSC, the side CAD is invaluable for more warp charge and more buffs. I do think that the extra flyrants are probably more competitive, and in reality I think I would do all three for a hyper competitive list because another primus is pretty important for a subterranean formation (and the extra hatred bubble). Plus, a second patriarch is amazing. Would give something like 11 warp charge with two allied flyrants, and you could bring in allied deep striking obsec rippers as well if you have the points to spare (although I think that obsec acolytes are probably better, and are in fact cheaper).
To be honest I've come to think that for GSC it's....different.
Our meta-detachment is by far our strongest - the reserves tweaking, the Return to Shadows replenshing and the mass Infilitrate does a lot of work for GSC as a whole.
However, we also benefit from a secondary CAD or some secondary formations - more warp charge dice and additional Primus' for your Subterranean Assaults, or additional Patriarchs to make your 'assault' units even more monstrous.
I would say however that the CAD is secondary to the meta-detachment in terms of strength. I'd not splash points into the CAD simply because our meta-detachment just benefits us that much more as do the formations.
Sure, CAD Acolytes have ObSec.
But Insurrection Acolytes have Shrouded on Turn 1 and the ability to replenish their numbers when they Return to the Shadows.
I'd say, with the CAD to run it very, very barebones. I'm honestly thinking of basically going Primus, Patriarch and 2 min squads of Acolytes. Extra Warp Charge, another Primus to further reinforce the Uprising and direct them and another Patriarch to throw into a unit - possibly even into one of my Cavalcade Neophyte squads.
and moved them onto the board on my own table edge. Am I able to "Return to the shadows" to ongoing reserves on turn 1 since 
) I ran away with return to the shadows. My last charging unit alive hit a riptide and solo'd it, was awesome. Ended up hiding and popping around, charging at opportunity. Won turn 5 with shenanigans as I popped up and got objectives, tied maelstrom with a late 3 pointer (ITC missions) and the game ended. Yikes! Turn 3 I finally went first without getting seized on. killed two tides turn 1 with assaults and tied up the third. Popped up and killed Warp Spiders and Jetbikes as they appeared. Flyrants focused down the Council eventually, WK died to mass rending but killed no less than 6 squads doing so!!!!
