With the recent staggering success of Total War: Warhammer; the return of some OOP novels, like Prince of Altdorf for specialTotal War: Warhammer Old World edition and with the for comming succes of Blood Bowl; I am getting excited how will Games Workshop bring back Warhammer Fanatsy battles. Its clear that their is a need for te classical Fantasy genre.
There are plenty of retrogaming clubs. You can swing back to 8th, or try to find a game of 9th Age. You have Oldhammer with 3rd Ed. WFB, or Classichammer with 5th or 6th Ed. depending on who you can find to play. Tons of options. However, none of those are currently produced by GW, and none will. They've gone whole hog with AOS, and aren't about to backpedal now. Not with all the work they've thrown into it.
If you want old WHFB back in a fashion that's going to be supported more going forward look up 9th Age. They've changed all the proper nouns and are rewriting the fluff to avoid legal issues, but it's basically 9th edition WHFB.
Just Tony wrote: ...They've gone whole hog with AOS, and aren't about to backpedal now. Not with all the work they've thrown into it.
I cannot imagine them bringing back a 28mm 'ranks n flanks' game, but I could imagine GW bringing back Warmaster or a Mordheim type game set in the End Times though.
On the other hand, with some thoughtful regimental bases it would not be hard to make those round bases into square formations. So I will be happily surprised if GW bring it back, but not disappointed if they don't.
Maybe someone at GW will notice they've had the WotR rules gathering dust on a shelf for years and they could rebrand it as a WHFB game. And get to try and upsell Age of Sigmar players on the movement trays with round-based indents.
Doesn't their renewed focus on LotR mean they've been looking at those rules? Their community website even puts a spotlight on those Ironhill dwarves.
StygianBeach wrote: I cannot imagine them bringing back a 28mm 'ranks n flanks' game, but I could imagine GW bringing back Warmaster or a Mordheim type game set in the End Times though.
On the other hand, with some thoughtful regimental bases it would not be hard to make those round bases into square formations. So I will be happily surprised if GW bring it back, but not disappointed if they don't.
This I see as most likely to happen. Either Warmaster to get people to buy entire new armies or an End Times reconquest that basically combines AoS gameplay and aesthetics with the old world for a alternate continuation. Players get the old world while GW can continue making mass skirmish fantasy models for both games.
We'll see in five years what happens. GW confirmed that's how long they've already got AoS planned out for in releases and it'll be about that long for the TW warhammer trilogy.
I would really like to know, what is the percentage of sales between old and bew lines.
To me it looks that the for example the Empire line is strong as it was and they are all on squares. Otherwise they would have been thrown out or reboxed. Heck even Ogres and O&G ranges are mostly intact. I would say that TW:W could have a influence on this, but this can be only told when by GW bean counters, when Tomb Kings and Bretonnia will be out in full glory.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the return of WHFB or The Old World, but there's still plenty of fantasy figures available, and your 3rd-8th rulebooks didn't vanish in a puff of smoke. 9th Age is free online, and there's options such as Kings of War which you can just as easily play using the "lore" of the Old World (which you can also do using the AoS rules, or even the SAGA rules, SoBH, etc). The Perrys provide a fine range of plastics that can replace the sadly-departed Bretts with supplementary models from Reaper, etc. TK are a lot harder to start fresh at this point, but it's doable if you're especially dedicated.
Mordheim may or may not make a comeback, and if it does it may or may not be AOS-ified as WHQ was. The Mordheim rules are still available if you look around online, and as always you can use whichever figures you like.
Figures on square bases will stay that way until they get redone. At which point they'll either be repackaged on rounds like the Black Orcs, or removed/replaced entirely.
THe issue is that WFB wasn't as IP protectable as GW would have liked, so going back to anything generic would be basically handing people like Chapter House money, and that's what is currently driving EVERYTHING that GW is doing now. If it wasn't, the Imperial Guard would still be called the Imperial Guard.
That is the really nice thing, Azazelx. 8th edition of Warhammer really was a bloated bible of rules, and AoS and Kings of War definitely make for more accessible ways to play in the Old World, depending on whether you want to stay with "ranks and flanks" or a more organic troop style.
It's a bummer that WHFB will no longer be supported or expanded, but frankly fans who really love the game could still have tons of fun in a group all dedicated to playing in the Old World.
I wish I had a gaming group that all like the WHFB fluff as much as me- I could literally play with any set of good rules and be happy, provided they let me use the right style of figures, be it Mordheim, Song of Blades and Heroes or several others for skirmish gaming, or 9th Age, KoW or AoS for full-scale battles.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I want Fantasy to come back more than anyone, but It's not going to happen.
They killed it, took it out back and shot it in the head 'cause it was getting too old.
Forge World *might* take it over one day, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Tomb Kings and Bretonnia will never return in their current image because GW can't copyright material that is too much in common with actual history.
I'd be surprised if we ever saw a cavalry model actually riding a horse ever again, because horses aren't copyrightable.
They are going to slowly phase out the old lines until they all look like sigmarines.
Regarding the bolded: such a non-issue. Axis and Allies has existed in pretty much the same form for how long? The problem had nothing to do with WFB being too old, it had everything to do with GW being unwilling to invest in advertising and growing the customer base. It had everything to do with GW refusing to fix the balance problems with the books in an edition by replacing the two or three books, but by completely revising the system. It had everything to do with GW trying to sell the same grognards new copies of the same thing they already had, rather than making prices low enough to foster multiple armies per player. There are a TON of things that killed WFB, but being too damned old is NOT one of them.
Wait, a 2nd edition in less than 2 years? That's not the mark of something doing well. And by every speck of evidence I can find, AOS doing well is only happening in small pockets, with the total whole of the world being lackluster sales.
Eh, I'm not sure you can call it second edition. It's just the new general's handbook coming out that's needed to contain points for all the new armies and battletomes that will be released next year.
What's really great is the fan feedback they're listening to on what people want to see in the new book like point cost changes, more battlelines and more narratives.
chaos0xomega wrote: Not going to happen. AoS is selling very well and theyve announced a 2nd edition of the rules. WHFB is dead and buried.
Well, they might try a 30k approach to it, you never know. I do doubt we'll see any gear shifts back to rank and file when so many competitors are filling that void.
Baron Klatz wrote: Eh, I'm not sure you can call it second edition. It's just the new general's handbook coming out that's needed to contain points for all the new armies and battletomes that will be released next year.
What's really great is the fan feedback they're listening to on what people want to see in the new book like point cost changes, more battlelines and more narratives.
chaos0xomega wrote: Not going to happen. AoS is selling very well and theyve announced a 2nd edition of the rules. WHFB is dead and buried.
Well, they might try a 30k approach to it, you never know. I do doubt we'll see any gear shifts back to rank and file when so many competitors are filling that void.
And that part I disagree with. Who is the "best" game studio out there? Were they the first to do a FPS? (Just an example, I DETEST FPS games) Was the market already covered by FPSs from other studios? Without doing any sort of searching since I'm at work and time is limited, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that IF they weren't the first, they certainly wouldn't bypass the market because of competition. I doubt GW would either, they just need to see the profitability in it, and then use their standing as the "best" to push to the fore. They won't, but that's what they would do if they followed any other company's business practices.
Well Age of Sigmar being a succes is quite a strech. On googletrends it has the same amount of searches like WHFB. I know it doesnt reflect sales values, but it still indicates popularity.
I like, when people play the "it wasnt IP protectable" card. Does MP3 players are IP protectable? No. Yet Apple was still able to ton of money from Ipods.
Apple has the cult of brand loyalty going for it. Not only that, but having exclusive software for loading music and the like. MP3 players hit because there was no non-Mac version available. Computers are the same way. Apple has the cult of brand loyalty, but good luck getting games for your Apple comp. Some people want a brand, some people want versatility.
And if you want MY opinion on the whole AOS thing as far as parallels go?
Just Tony wrote: Apple has the cult of brand loyalty going for it. Not only that, but having exclusive software for loading music and the like. MP3 players hit because there was no non-Mac version available. Computers are the same way. Apple has the cult of brand loyalty, but good luck getting games for your Apple comp. Some people want a brand, some people want versatility.
And if you want MY opinion on the whole AOS thing as far as parallels go?
The Black September relaunch is probably the best parallel I could find.
I do think that Games Workshop has own little cult of brand. 40k and WHFB had it till 2000s. When people from 4-5th edition WHFB are want to return via TW:W to the game, then I do think that the part of the infamous Kirby, that GW has aloyal fanbase is true. Just GW doesnt give inniative to buy for a number of reasons.
herjan1987 wrote: Well Age of Sigmar being a succes is quite a strech. On googletrends it has the same amount of searches like WHFB. I know it doesnt reflect sales values, but it still indicates popularity.
On reddit it's doing great compared to fantasy. AoS has almost 4,000 subscribers compared to fantasy being almost at 3,000 and that's just after a year.
The activity is also very good with posts almost every four hours, alot of those being tabletop newbies. So if not "successful" it at least is getting alot of people into the hobby which is always a good thing.
TW:W has had a hand in it as well with some army building activity going along with the new dlc's.
So TW:W is very beneficial for both Wfb and AoS. Certainly wouldn't hurt to play on the Old World popularity with a call back game.
They also need to lessen that no AoS mod restriction. I've seen some great stuff pulled back because of it and that'd certainly be a boon to AoS as well with people being able to charge the enemy as an epic Stormcast army. (There's a hammers of Sigmar army which is basically that but had to remove the Stormcast artwork it used.)
Regarding the bolded: such a non-issue. Axis and Allies has existed in pretty much the same form for how long? The problem had nothing to do with WFB being too old, it had everything to do with GW being unwilling to invest in advertising and growing the customer base. It had everything to do with GW refusing to fix the balance problems with the books in an edition by replacing the two or three books, but by completely revising the system. It had everything to do with GW trying to sell the same grognards new copies of the same thing they already had, rather than making prices low enough to foster multiple armies per player. There are a TON of things that killed WFB, but being too damned old is NOT one of them.
I think you are reading into what I wrote a little too much.
I used the word "Old" as an oversimplification of why they killed off WFB, and also to complete my "Ol' Yeller" analogy.
I understand there were many reasons as to why WFB was canned, I didn't really think that a full on synopsis of the reasons was necessary.
Give that GW have just brought back Blood Bowl and we've seen the first 40k Primarch since Epic. I'd say WHFB will be back in around 10-15 years. It's just a matter of waiting.
I understand there were many reasons as to why WFB was canned, I didn't really think that a full on synopsis of the reasons was necessary.
I thought there was only one? And that was: not enough new sales.
- Which was due to a lack of new players. Which was due to a lack of marketing and gateway products. Which ironically came out only some months later (TW:Warhammer). Which was just bad, bad product management, really.
It isnt going to come back. AOS, love it or hate it, is here to stay. Its easier to get into, rules are easier to understand and the game isnt penetrable.
I bought an entire AOS plaable force for 200$, in 8th edition would that have been remotely possible?
just think of the AOS fluff as a sequel.
i think why so many people want the Old world to return is how Age of Sigmar was originally handled.
They made it sound like things would be basically the same in the background.. but the blew up the world in the end times
and then turned the game in to a high fantasy setting.. deleting parts the couldn't copy write while keeping others.. so the background
became very spotty.. Those are nurgle demons.. but those are no longer called lizardmen.. parts went away and parts stayed..
The rules went from 200+ page book to a 4 page pamphlet...with tons of community interpretations of how the rules should actually work.
We had to wait a year for an official point values for a game that many players used in all previous editions for 20+ years..
You can keep your old models... but you need to change your bases.. and if you don't and buy any new models your units won't look coherent
Games Workshop continues to release video games (total war, Mordiheim) based in the old world only to have new players find out there is no such thing.
In most locations it destroyed the community that was already shaky from 8th edition; Now newer players are okay with the easy in, simpler rules but
find it difficult to find games; I have heard a number of comparisons to the 4th edition D&D community split to AoS.
The death of Warhammer fantasy enabled room for fans to remake the rules in their own image and fix them. 9th Age is great, just name everything back to its 8th edition roots.
The AoS boxsets also helps with building old warhammer armies.
Games Workship can still sell Warhammer fantasy if it wants to. The way to do it is to perpetuate sales of sperate square bases and to sell two books, an official 9th edition rulebook and an official 9th edition full Ravening Hordes with all the army lists in good detail. Two good size hardback books which will sell very nicely.
Old models could bet intermittently released as plastics on mail order. Ge mail order did old school IG models not too long ago, they could do Bretonnians once a year just as easily.
While I agree with the whole square bases part, I think with 7th edition you had the introduction to grossly overpowered armies and special rules overage, with 8th you had special rules glut with some really terrible rules made to kill the OP dynamic of the army books, but lead to a replacement with MORE OP dynamics. 6th edition with a few AB exceptions was far better than any edition afterwards. They reissue 6th edition rules with slightly amended Ravening Hordes from that edition and you have an incredibly balanced game.
Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
herjan1987 wrote: Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
WHFB-AoS 1:0
Spoiler:
Long live our beloved Warhammer Fantasy Battles!
*rolls eyes*
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
@Just Tony they will come with squares and circles the box will cost 50 quid.
herjan1987 wrote: Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
WHFB-AoS 1:0
Long live our beloved Warhammer Fantasy Battles!
*rolls eyes*
@Just Tony they will come with squares and circles the box will cost 50 quid.
Sure whatever makes you feel better at night Herjan that whfb will become their flagship game again not going to even debate the point considering you are ignoring those two images.
Forgeworld are more likely to pick it up like 30k that's the best case scenario I think.
shinros wrote: Sure whatever makes you feel better at night Herjan that whfb will become their flagship game again not going to even debate the point considering you are ignoring those two images.
Forgeworld are more likely to pick it up like 30k that's the best case scenario I think.
Well Shrinos you are waving those sales, that you know how many did they sold. That is reason I am very happy that they included square bases in the refurbished 8th edition starter set.
shinros wrote: Sure whatever makes you feel better at night Herjan that whfb will become their flagship game again not going to even debate the point considering you are ignoring those two images.
Forgeworld are more likely to pick it up like 30k that's the best case scenario I think.
Well Shrinos you are waving those sales, that you know how many did they sold. That is reason I am very happy that they included square bases in the refurbished 8th edition starter set.
Dunno I don't have those numbers but the sheer fact they are gone in several territories I checked AND the sylvaneth battletome and the battle tome and book bundle are ALSO out of stock in several territories shows there is demand there and people PLAY the game. Even in japan for christ sake. To the point on facebook people are asking for a second run. If you want me to I can take pictures of all the pages they are out of stock on. It's quite a lot but hey.
The boxes went up today.
Warhammer Age of Sigmar
6 hrs ·
These 4 great new Warhammer Age of Sigmar Battleforces are in stores now. There is no better place to start a new army this December, but hurry, these are only available while stocks last, so grab them while you can
If you are trying to prove they did not print a lot which is what you are suggesting prove it. To me it just sounds like a weak argument and it's clear as day that the new box is intended for people who play AOS since many have noted they want to start and elf army among the articles and community AND some people who still play 8th or 9th age with their friends. Hell some people just want the box for the rat ogres for blood bowl. To deny that is idiocy.
Still people on bells still feel by itself the box does not make a good 8th army gameplay wise but a great "skirmish" force. Hell I can see collectors picking it up just for the price point. I can turn this argument on top of it's head right now the new box is going out of stock in some territories because they must of not printed a lot to sell them right? They might just be clearing out the "small" stock they have. See?
Still people on bells still feel by itself the box does not make a good 8th army gameplay wise but a great "skirmish" force. Hell I can see collectors picking it up just for the price point. I can turn this argument on top of it's head right now the new box is going out of stock in some territories because they must of not printed a lot to sell them right? They might just be clearing out the "small" stock they have. See?
This is direct from Kirbys basement I guess
Shrinos you forget, that they destroyed a lot of stock in the spring during the "Last chance to buy" session. Including Lother Sea Guard. Guess what is in the Island of Blood set there are Lothern Sea Guard.
Still people on bells still feel by itself the box does not make a good 8th army gameplay wise but a great "skirmish" force. Hell I can see collectors picking it up just for the price point. I can turn this argument on top of it's head right now the new box is going out of stock in some territories because they must of not printed a lot to sell them right? They might just be clearing out the "small" stock they have. See?
This is direct from Kirbys basement I guess
Shrinos you forget, that they destroyed a lot of stock in the spring during the "Last chance to buy" session. Including Lother Sea Guard. Guess what is in the Island of Blood set there are Lothern Sea Guard.
And you are aware atia said the last chance to buy did not make much difference at all? In terms of sales When the report came out. So who's word should I trust yours or hers? She also did reveal in actuality they did not even have much of it to begin with according to her. Now realistically when you are supporting a game still you would make sure to have enough stocked which AOS IS.
Now of course any company would prepare things in advance considering AOS was in development since 7th edition so I assume GW still do this. So in context you are telling me they did not make enough for their supported game considering on the internet generally a lot of people are happy with the general's handbook.
What evidence do you have to state they did not make enough? For ALL those territories that put the sylvaneth battletome, Sylvaneth battletome bundle with the book and all the battle force sets. All this tells me is that there is clear demand considering the battletomes are out stock and in my opinion if you want to play sylvaneth seriously you would need it. Unlike ironjaws and stormcast, GW stated they made a certain amount of boxes but I doubt either of us will have such information of how much they actually made.
It's just to clear them stock and a bit of filler until the next big AoS release(fingers crossed for a new starter). The square bases were already in the boxes so why not sell them as well? AoS can use both bases.
It's just to clear them stock and a bit of filler until the next big AoS release(fingers crossed for a new starter). The square bases were already in the boxes so why not sell them as well? AoS can use both bases.
Edit: Also, maybe spoiler those?
Honestly I am calm sorry if it appeared I was hostile. I have spoiler tagged the images.
I am not going to debate the point anymore he has his perspective he has his. Personally I can't wait for the grungi dwarfs and tzeentch arcanites crossing my fingers that they are a new starter set.
It's just to clear them stock and a bit of filler until the next big AoS release(fingers crossed for a new starter). The square bases were already in the boxes so why not sell them as well? AoS can use both bases.
Edit: Also, maybe spoiler those?
Funny how roumors said that all the molds where destroyed and they stopped selling IoB for year or more. Also there is no indication that this is limited print.
Baron Klatz wrote: Oh, well you did sound a little angry there(easy to assume on the internet).
Herjan's just scrapping for some piece of hope. Let him have his dreams like he has TW:W.
It's all they got left.
@Herjan, The "While stocks last" is pretty telling.
This is indeed correct, most likely they are going to do a second print because many were planning to buy it next week. Quite a few facebook posters are upset it's gone and asking for a re print considering how many people don't use social network I imagine a lot more people share the same feelings.
Personally I do feel it's going to come back in some form. When? I don't know but I think it's going to be a forgeworld thing like 30k. Of course I can be wrong. Personally I think total war warhammer emulates the TT far better than the TT itself plus I can turn the warhammer world into an undead paradise instead of the vampires just making mean faces at the empire while warriors of chaos stole the show.
It'll be funny to hear complaints about prices when FW starts releasing ranked infantry, GW will look cheap by comparison.
Forgeworld is expensive but to me seems the realistic route to bring it back. Like they can call it "wars from the world that was!" or some such and have the rule book written like a history book of sorts since they note sigmar has a library on the events from the warhammer world which he has his generals study.
Maybe have some bits be skaven/chaos like since skaven also have a great book of their first "alliance" with chaos.
Baron Klatz wrote: Oh, well you did sound a little angry there(easy to assume on the internet).
Herjan's just scrapping for some piece of hope. Let him have his dreams like he has TW:W.
It's all they got left.
@Herjan, The "While stocks last" is pretty telling.
I am really interested where did GW wrote "while stock lasts" on the refurbished IoB kit. I checked it with my browsers aswell and there is no such indication.
Also dear Baron: "A solitary fantasy can change million a realities" Maya Angelou
I'm quite surprised to see this news too, hope this is a good direction because from what I have seen, there is some quick lore on the boxset, name change for the elves, and some other info that I will nitpick to make it short.
Quick lore on the boxset:
" The Dawnspire stands at the edge of the Transient Isles. Immense, drifting islands of black stone hanging in the air above an azure sea, they were once the subject of foul sorceries, a powerful Chaos wizard seeking to bring them crashing down. The mages of the Eldritch Council were able to stop this foul ritual, but not before two of the islands were lost to the depths."
Name changes in the Elf side:
Prince on Gryphon became High Warden
Archmage still Archmage? ( not really sure on the IoB name)
10 Swordmaster
Lothren seaguard became Spireguard
Elliyrian Reavers became Reavers
So this is the info of what I have seen:
- Complete rule to be used in the game ( hopefully there is an update in the warscroll)
-Background narrative as always (again, hopefully we could see the lore of the elves in AoS getting more explanation)
- 2 Warscroll battalion and 2 Pitched Battle Profile, one for each force
- Round and square base for each model
- stated in the last paragraph : "Previously only available in Warhammer Island of BLood, this is another chance to own these superbly detailed and dynamic miniatures." It is stated as "Available while stocks last"
hopefully this helps!
Sounds pretty good. Glad to see the elves getting some attention, they're a really cool army. I bet those Skaven Weapon teams will be selling like hotcakes on the secondary market.
But who knows, it may stay permanent if we're lucky.
Luckier still if they decide to re-release Free People knights (Brets) as another spot filler. (I can dream)
Nice quote but isn't there only one reality? Unless we're bringing timey whimey dimensions stuff into this.
But who knows, it may stay permanent if we're lucky.
Luckier still if they decide to re-release Free People knights (Brets) as another spot filler. (I can dream)
Nice quote but isn't there only one reality? Unless we're bringing timey whimey dimensions stuff into this.
Now I get really excited, about Games Workshops moves. Since they are brought back, even, if temporaraly a WHFB kit with the option of sqaure bases. No other AoS realase did this before. Hence, why I am so happy about this. I wish they would realise, by removing the square bases and ending the support of Warhammer Fantasy Battles they are loosing sales.
Off:
Baron it all about perspective. If you consider your and mine a separate reality, then there is more then 7 billion on just on this planet. If you think that the whole universive is viewed by everthing that lives in it the same way, then there is only reality.
@Shinros: Sold out means nothing without knowing how much stock was made. The LTD ET books sold out almost instantly with a 2,000 print run, and the AOS LTD books had half that and may have sold out by now, haven't checked since I don't care about AOS. They could be doing limited runs of AOS stuff as they themselves said that stock would be rotating in availability to keep the shelves fresh. Or did I imagine that part of it?
Hearing it will have squares makes me quite giddy, time to see the US pricing.
Or moving old stock... they are forgetting to put while stocks last on alot of things this month.(clicked on the spires of dawn from your link and it's sold out)
Remember; hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You already were disappointed by that Made to Order stuff that predictably went all 40k.
Baron Klatz wrote: Or moving old stock... they are forgetting to put while stocks last on alot of things this month.(clicked on the spires of dawn from your link and it's sold out)
Remember; hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You already were disappointed by that Made to Order stuff that predictably went all 40k.
Would you redesign a the cover art for a clearance? Just put it in the white box like, they did with End Times Nagash. This is just a pre-order. Who knows. I am would like to live out the best case scenario and there is no real worst case one. Warhammer Fantasy is currently discountinued. So even, if they do limited runs, then thats a best case scenario aswell.
One more thing:
Just read the last line: IN STORES SOON
Would go through the trouble of reboxing a product and putting them on the selfs of your stores, when you are clearing it out? Why wouldnt you just leave it in the warehouse and send it out via post.
Island of Blood is here to stay, with optional square bases.
Baron Klatz wrote: Changing the cover art and lore is fairly cheap and makes the product far more appealing for new and old players.
In anycase, I, and certainly many others in AoS & Wfb, agree with you in hoping this is a permanent product.
Also, at the Round Table, I already talked about the leaks and game release a while ago in the AoS section.
Well they changed the labels to "Temporarily out of stock", we will see more of this kit. You should share these infos in much more prominent and popular thread like the "Why Bretonnia was not put back into production" thread
herjan1987 wrote: Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
WHFB-AoS 1:0
Long live our beloved Warhammer Fantasy Battles!
Its more like long live our beloved core boxset molds.
We might also get Skull Pass of Sigmar.
Baron Klatz wrote: Changing the cover art and lore is fairly cheap and makes the product far more appealing for new and old players.
It's also a massive potential profit boost for GW. Other than the artwork (which is relatively minimal by the looks of things) then the design and manufacture of everything has already paid for itself, likely, several time times over. Therefore the only real cost is going to be the material/manufacture/haulage/hidden store costs.
If you estimate these as about £10-£15 per box set then you are making a massive profit per box. Make a small run and if it sells continue until sales dry up.
Just Tony wrote: You laugh, I'd LOVE BFSP models to be available again. Well, cheaper than $80 though...
There are some on the trade threads.FYI.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Kragan wrote: I for one hope they keep doing those boxes... that archmage looks delicious.
He is a pain in the arse to assemble and paint and is fragile. I much prefer the metal and standalone versions.
And every one that's on there is mishmashed into combo deals with pewter I'd melt down into fishing sinkers and post the video on Youtube as "how to convert metal GW minis" or it's for trade only, wanting stuff I don't have.
I'd like a $50 box of just the mini frames. No need for rules, dice, anything else. Just the mini frames. $50 max, though ideally I'd adore it if it were cheaper than that. Convince my wife of why I'm buying 20 boxes.
Just Tony wrote: You laugh, I'd LOVE BFSP models to be available again. Well, cheaper than $80 though...
There are some on the trade threads.FYI.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Kragan wrote: I for one hope they keep doing those boxes... that archmage looks delicious.
He is a pain in the arse to assemble and paint and is fragile. I much prefer the metal and standalone versions.
And every one that's on there is mishmashed into combo deals with pewter I'd melt down into fishing sinkers and post the video on Youtube as "how to convert metal GW minis" or it's for trade only, wanting stuff I don't have.
I'd like a $50 box of just the mini frames. No need for rules, dice, anything else. Just the mini frames. $50 max, though ideally I'd adore it if it were cheaper than that. Convince my wife of why I'm buying 20 boxes.
noone was willing to part out or split? thats suck. patience may still win out though.
As an empire player; I felt the army was abandoned completely with only parts of it left..
The background of Age of Sigmar feels the same.. Part stayed.. Other went away...
I know Warhammer will not come back any time soon.. But Games Workshop has some
of the best models out there.. And I have gone from a army buyer basing some purchase
from the rules in the book to only buying a few models that look nice...More of a collector
now verses a players..
I would not lose a second of sleep if T9A was pushed out. I'd rather them go as far back as 6th. 7th brought in the garbage that chased off over half the player base, and 8th simply overloaded with special rules to counter those OP books when simply replacing the OP books would have sufficed.
Baron Klatz wrote: Let him have his fun. (it's not a fair comprison anyway)
My real question is, what do Wfb players expect from a return to Wfb?
It's not like GW are going to get all the old edition people to remake it.
All the stuff that gets criticized in AoS like the writing, the artwork and the model designs? That would just get moved into Wfb 9th.
Not to mention the 9th age being under threat to be closed down due to being a competitor instead of an alternative.
Just seems alot more trouble than just going with as things are. (Shrugs)
Baron knows that I am nice guy and knows that also that I do like AoS in certain aspect.
But I cant help, but not to put this here aswell:
1563 comments, 463 likes and 123 pageshares over the course of 12 hours.
Just in comparison the Chaos Space Marine/Chaos Demons/Space Marine vote had a total of 1493 comments 536 likes and 98 pageshare over days.
I dare to dissaprove here. If you look at the post/like ration on AoS and WHFB posts on Age of Sigmar facebook page then you will see that those that contain WHFB material has a much more loyal fanbase.
For example:
AoS Battleforce recieved 147 likes, 6 pageshares and a total of 35 posts
Dawn of Spire 1 recieved 984 likes, 279 pageshares and a total of 192 posts
Dawn of Spire Comming back soon recieved 322 likes, 48 pageshares and a total of 56 posts
The Old World is still alive and kicking. I talked with some 9thAge players and they would come back for a GW setting. Hell I could see that GW hires some 9thAge guys to make the game fun and balanced.
Also GW will put as much effort to their Fantasy product line as much effort we ask and pay for. Its not just about how can GW make WARHAMMER FANTASY BATTLES GREAT AGAIN, it is also about how can we customers make GAMES WORKSHOP a great company.
I dare to dissaprove here. If you look at the post/like ration on AoS and WHFB posts on Age of Sigmar facebook page then you will see that those that contain WHFB material has a much more loyal fanbase.
For example:
AoS Battleforce recieved 147 likes, 6 pageshares and a total of 35 posts
Dawn of Spire 1 recieved 984 likes, 279 pageshares and a total of 192 posts
Dawn of Spire Comming back soon recieved 322 likes, 48 pageshares and a total of 56 posts
The Old World is still alive and kicking. I talked with some 9thAge players and they would come back for a GW setting. Hell I could see that GW hires some 9thAge guys to make the game fun and balanced.
Let's be blunt, while I'm glad you've found something you've liked.. This is not a very valid metric at all for people wanting the Old World. There's plenty of valid reasons for people posting on that, considering:
A: Dawn of Spire has plenty of good models, well done up and people generally liked this set.
B: It's a very good price
C: There's no indication that its anyone wanting Old World, they could just be wanting new mini's for their Age of Sigmar factions (Seeing as Skaven and Elves aint had their full time to shine yet)
I dare to dissaprove here. If you look at the post/like ration on AoS and WHFB posts on Age of Sigmar facebook page then you will see that those that contain WHFB material has a much more loyal fanbase.
For example:
AoS Battleforce recieved 147 likes, 6 pageshares and a total of 35 posts
Dawn of Spire 1 recieved 984 likes, 279 pageshares and a total of 192 posts
Dawn of Spire Comming back soon recieved 322 likes, 48 pageshares and a total of 56 posts
The Old World is still alive and kicking. I talked with some 9thAge players and they would come back for a GW setting. Hell I could see that GW hires some 9thAge guys to make the game fun and balanced.
Let's be blunt, while I'm glad you've found something you've liked.. This is not a very valid metric at all for people wanting the Old World. There's plenty of valid reasons for people posting on that, considering:
A: Dawn of Spire has plenty of good models, well done up and people generally liked this set.
B: It's a very good price
C: There's no indication that its anyone wanting Old World, they could just be wanting new mini's for their Age of Sigmar factions (Seeing as Skaven and Elves aint had their full time to shine yet)
If you read into the Fantasy made to order post, then you will see that there is plenty of people who want the Old World back. A lot of people ask for empire, high elf and wood elf instead of GW nonse, that we have now.
That's the thing though, it's the AoS Facebook. Alot of likes are coming from the AoS crowd who also love the Old World models.
I've seen plenty of new players get into AoS and the tabletop because of the great deal on the dawn spire box.
Same for the made to order, all of AoS players would love older models and are asking for really outdated armies like DoW to have AoS rules and Bretonnia to be added to the new fluff. (Heartily agree with both suggestions )
Anyway, I am very pleased to see all the Bretonnian fans come out of the wood work.
The Old World is still alive and kicking.
To some it never died.
I talked with some 9thAge players and they would come back for a GW setting. Hell I could see that GW hires some 9thAge guys to make the game fun and balanced.
That's a mixed bag, there's alot of older players who don't want to return to GW and made that clear to them when the points were announced and they hopped onto Facebook to tell GW off like a bad soap opera. :rolleyes:
That still alot of hate that, mixed in with all the new competition, will make GW wary to try to tackle that market again.
Also, GW doesn't need the 9th team for a fun game. They've already made plenty of fun games.
Also GW will put as much effort to their Fantasy product line as much effort we ask and pay for. Its not just about how can GW make WARHAMMER FANTASY BATTLES GREAT AGAIN, it is also about how can we customers make GAMES WORKSHOP a great company.
What's that got to do with anything? GW's already a great company who put a ton of effort into Wfb when it wasn't selling well with great models, writing and army books.
Are you talking about the current model and artwork design? Those are fine, just maybe not everyone's cup of tea.
I liked Fantasy and 8th. If you don't see Fantasy players anymore it's because GW doesn't support our game anymore. I can't even play at my local GW a game i spent like over a thousand USD into. It's absolute garbage.
Considering the success of Total War, Blood Bowl and the release of IoB (even repackaged) i'd say it's a good indication they're giving us a chance. If it was old GW i'd say they've run out of ideas. However with new GW i'd say they're trying to bring back the old games and undo damage old GW did.
Far as AoS goes in the GW i'm at less people play it than played fantasy. A lot of AoS players can't seem to find anybody with AoS that have enough time to play. There was maybe one game on saturday and maybe 2-3 other players in the shop with one painting Magnus, one without enough stuff and the other just visiting. Week before nobody was playing AoS.
During 8th fantasy they always had a game of Fantasy on one of the 3-4 tables. In AoS they can't even get that. Less models and less customer base.
Even on Dakka there's only 3 big sub-sections for AoS while Fantasy had much more when it was supported.
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Personally i'll say while i hate AoS some enjoy it. If GW didn't kill our game and prevent us from playing it in their stores i'd actually be ok with it. However they do or at least the local GW manager does. I have fully moved on to 40k since. If GW wants to really do something to take away all the hate they can bring back fantasy or at least allow us people that spent 1,000 USD to play our game that they used to support in their stores just like all other games they made. Until then new GW isn't quite good enough.
I don't think GW main would or should bring back WHFB. The game would compete with AoS for attention and table space. Plus, most of the fluff GW writes these days is utter gak. Now, I would love to see Forge World do WHFB. They actually still write good fluff and their more mature style would fit the WHFB setting a lot better. Plus, they make some cracking models for the game. Their game devs are pretty decent too.
I'm rather mixed on more Wfb support from GW at the moment.
On the one hand the old guard definitely deserve to be able to play there old game even if only partially supported. (Though there's the cost of upholding two hard to sell games compared to just one to consider)
On the other, it would encourage the Old Guard to stick to their guns and instead of trying other systems that suit them better in rules or pricing they'd be more inclined to discourage AoS players and rage at GW.
I'd like to see AoS and Wfb co-exist but I'm not sure that the fans could.
Baron Klatz wrote: I'm rather mixed on more Wfb support from GW at the moment.
On the one hand the old guard definitely deserve to be able to play there old game even if only partially supported. (Though there's the cost of upholding two hard to sell games compared to just one to consider)
On the other, it would encourage the Old Guard to stick to their guns and instead of trying other systems that suit them better in rules or pricing they'd be more inclined to discourage AoS players and rage at GW.
I'd like to see AoS and Wfb co-exist but I'm not sure that the fans could.
They do coexist currently. It's obvious part of the community sticks with older, unsopported (or barely supported) versions of WHFB or has moved to other commercial or fanmade offerings that keep the feel of the old WHFB rank-and-file game.
GW can keep waving AoS at them or they can say "there's a business opportunity there".
I do know that a lot of those re-released IoB minis are going to stay in their square bases, that's for sure. And a lot of start collecting boxes as well.
Baron Klatz wrote:That's the thing though, it's the AoS Facebook. Alot of likes are coming from the AoS crowd who also love the Old World models.
I've seen plenty of new players get into AoS and the tabletop because of the great deal on the dawn spire box.
Same for the made to order, all of AoS players would love older models and are asking for really outdated armies like DoW to have AoS rules and Bretonnia to be added to the new fluff. (Heartily agree with both suggestions )
Anyway, I am very pleased to see all the Bretonnian fans come out of the wood work.
This may be the most disingenuous thing I've seen from the AOS camp. So you've seen plenty of new players get into the game because of a boxed game that is still just preorder? You don't even see how that sounds? Are they pushing around empty rounds until their models get in? Probably not. There's no way anyone can honestly gauge how many people are preordering that set and for what. That's part of the problem, there's no metric unless there's a survey attached to the preorder to declare intent of gaming, which is pretty absurd when you think about it. The mad sale dash as people sought to complete those final WFB purchases has come and gone, and there are no indications that, at least in the US, the momentum is still there.
TheCustomLime wrote:I don't think GW main would or should bring back WHFB. The game would compete with AoS for attention and table space. Plus, most of the fluff GW writes these days is utter gak. Now, I would love to see Forge World do WHFB. They actually still write good fluff and their more mature style would fit the WHFB setting a lot better. Plus, they make some cracking models for the game. Their game devs are pretty decent too.
Compete with AOS. One is a mass skirmish game like 40K with synergies (Ugh. I may have thrown up in my mouth just typing that word...) taken straight from CCGs. Hell, even the limited window of releases is a page taken straight from M:TG. There's no competition. WFB would compete with Kings of War, which wouldn't be much of a competition unless they kept those godawful 8th Ed. rules. If anything, AOS is direct competition to WarmaHordes. And yeah, I really don't want WFB releases to be relegated to overly expensive FW stuff, only someone who wants to see the game fail would want that.
It uses much of the same models, same lore and there is crossover in the community. It may be a different game but they are both Warhammer fantasy games from Games Workshop so yes they would be in competition.
As for Forge World, there is a little game they made called Horus Heresy. I don't know if you've heard of it but I think it seems to have had modest success despite the expensive models.
I guess I should have elaborated better. I've seen people online on things like Reddit, Facebook and forums get into AoS and tabletop as they've ordered the game and are asking questions about what forces they should build and how big a point game they can play with the box when it arrives.
Sorry for the confusion.
As for AoS competiting with Wfb, I imagine it'd just be the split in resources to try and maintain both games while getting releases out for both of them and keeping 40k updated that's the competition rather than the gameplay.
TheCustomLime wrote: It uses much of the same models, same lore and there is crossover in the community. It may be a different game but they are both Warhammer fantasy games from Games Workshop so yes they would be in competition.
As for Forge World, there is a little game they made called Horus Heresy. I don't know if you've heard of it but I think it seems to have had modest success despite the expensive models.
So you say that AoS is not competing with for example the Hobbit, which is also a fantasy game from Games Workshop?
Warhammer was able did co-exist with LOTR. So why couldnt WHFB co-exist with AoS. By the way it does co-exist in some sence, since most of the models are still using squares instead of the preferred round based that AoS uses.
Baron Klatz 708637 9077922 nullhttp://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/708637.page wrote:I guess I should have elaborated better. I've seen people online on things like Reddit, Facebook and forums get into AoS and tabletop as they've ordered the game and are asking questions about what forces they should build and how big a point game they can play with the box when it arrives.
Sorry for the confusion.
As for AoS competiting with Wfb, I imagine it'd just be the split in resources to try and maintain both games while getting releases out for both of them and keeping 40k updated that's the competition rather than the gameplay.
What they could do malecowshirt stuff in. For example the Stormcast could be made into elit part of an Cathay army, since the general theme of dragon riding dudes could be plausible for nation that is themed around China.
In the same sence AoS could be still use the WHFB aestetic models to bolster the faction ranks.
But the easiest solution would be to merge the two games together and let AoS be gateway skirmish game for WHFB rank and file armies. Since its not that hard to maintain a 4 page rule set.
I didn't say they were both fantasy games from Games Workshop. I said they were both Warhammer fantasy games from Games Workshop. LotR is understood to be it's own system and it has it's own fanbase. AoS and WHFB, on the other hand, would be thought of as two different versions of the same system. And the warhammer fantasy community has proved to be very divided on the issue. Some WHFB are vehemently anti-AoS.
Perhaps in a 5-10 years when AoS and it's community have matured enough to be it's own separate entity it could coexist with WHFB. But right now there is too much overlap and AoS is too young.
TheCustomLime wrote: I didn't say they were both fantasy games from Games Workshop. I said they were both Warhammer fantasy games from Games Workshop. LotR is understood to be it's own system and it has it's own fanbase. AoS and WHFB, on the other hand, would be thought of as two different versions of the same system. And the warhammer fantasy community has proved to be very divided on the issue. Some WHFB are vehemently anti-AoS.
Perhaps in a 5-10 years when AoS and it's community have matured enough to be it's own separate entity it could coexist with WHFB. But right now there is too much overlap and AoS is too young.
We're anti-AoS because our game died to give it life without GW allowing us to play our old WFB game. Even today my store won't allow Fantasy players to play with every other game that they killed being allowed to be played.
LotR had about 3% sales and yet Fantasy was the one that had to die. I suppose they couldn't have made the argument (it just isn't popular) considering the LotR movies raked in millions. Perhaps it would've gone back in their face that their game was over-priced, in a bad niche and not good enough. All i'm saying is a few good or really good games would've pushed Fantasy back up. You're telling me with Vermintide, Mordheim and esp. Total War: Warhammer that Fantasy wouldn't have gotten new customers esp. with the 'Now you've played the game. Here are the models!' ads they had in Total War: Warhammer. Just goes to show old GW were morons when it came to advertising and pleasing customers. New GW might be ok. Also just for your info DoW 1 got me into 40k as well as other people and DoW 2 did similar. You can't tell me Total War: Warhammer (one of the most popular rank-and-file strategy games) wouldn't do the same for Fantasy.
Every "popular" argument is total bs. WFB was squatted because it was too generic, and couldn't be protected on the level that GW wanted. GW doesn't want another Chapterhouse incident, so they went overboard. How this works for them will tell over the course of this coming year.
What they could do malecowshirt stuff in. Example the Stormcast could be made into elit part of an Cathay army, since the general theme of dragon riding dudes could be plausible for nation that is themed around China.
In the same sence AoS could be still use the WHFB aestetic models to bolster the faction ranks.
But the easiest solution would be to merge the two games together and let AoS be gateway skirmish game for WHFB rank and file armies. Since its not that hard to maintain a 4 page rule set.
The Cathay idea isn't too bad since they didn't have golem that swam through the ground among other amazing things. The fact that they actually survived the End Times by using mystic ships to leave the Old World means a alternate after-End Times timeline could see them again.
GW issuing upgrade sprues to give the Stormcast a Asian look instead of a Roman one would be nice for a number of people in that case.
Alot of AoS stuff could easily be re-used for the alternate timeline while FW works on classic models.
We're anti-AoS because our game died to give it life without GW allowing us to play our old WFB game. Even today my store won't allow Fantasy players to play with every other game that they killed being allowed to be played.
Yeah, that was unfortunate. Was really hoping the Old Guard were given a choice when it launched. Though alot of thing were wrong with the launch that i put down to the changing of the guard at GWHQ.
For one, actually leading up to the arrival of the Stormcast and pantheon's split while the legacy armies fought a losing battle over the mortal realms would've been much better immersion than dropping everyone into the middle of it.
As for TW:W, that would've been great for business. Too bad GW didn't know when it'd be ready and didn't want to gamble a dying product on a game that might've ended up like Rome 2.
Alot of AoS stuff could easily be re-used for the alternate timeline while FW works on classic models.
I think that most of the 8th edition stuff that was around, is lasting stuff model wise. Personally I only have a gripe with the various Statetroops models, the 6th edition statetroops are so much better or the ones from "Mark of Chaos", Pumbagor , Harpies and the ancient Tomb King core units, but even those have their feel, other then that I think the models are super.
The thing GW or FW should could work around is expanding a universe, if they can afford it. Would like to see Chaos marked beastmen again and maybe more varied beastmen ( chicken-, lion-, tiger- etc, headed gors ) , even thou I am not a big fan of them. Would nice to see beastmen, skaven, dwarf, elf and orc skeletons like it was in von Kruegers Cursed Company for VC. Some fantasy knightly awesomness for Bretonnia.
Didn't you show your preferred state troops in the TW:W forum and was shown that the 8th ones are actually 6th edition troops while what you thought were 6th are actually 7th edition?
Can anyone here more knowledgeable clarify that? That 8th uses 6th edition troops or was that fellow mistaken?
Anyway, agree to expanding the model ranges and types.
Really what I'd like GW to do, and what i believe should be very cost effective for them, is to release tons of upgrade sprues for all that stuff and to convert current models to discontinued stuff.
Want Tomb kings? Here's the heads, weapons and fancy bits to turn your regular skeletons into them. Bretonnia? Medieval fantasy bits to convert your Empire range or even get creative with Bretonnian undead, Grail Casts or knight elves.
And just a whole mess of crazy parts to turn your beastmen and daemons into a force that looks like a warp stone meteor landed in the Emperor's menagerie.
Alot of AoS stuff could easily be re-used for the alternate timeline while FW works on classic models.
I think that most of the 8th edition stuff that was around, is lasting stuff model wise. Personally I only have a gripe with the various Statetroops models, the 6th edition statetroops are so much better or the ones from "Mark of Chaos", Pumbagor , Harpies and the ancient Tomb King core units, but even those have their feel, other then that I think the models are super.
The thing GW or FW should could work around is expanding a universe, if they can afford it. Would like to see Chaos marked beastmen again and maybe more varied beastmen ( chicken-, lion-, tiger- etc, headed gors ) , even thou I am not a big fan of them. Would nice to see beastmen, skaven, dwarf, elf and orc skeletons like it was in von Kruegers Cursed Company for VC. Some fantasy knightly awesomness for Bretonnia.
Oh sweet Primus I would buy tiger headed Bestmen SO hard. Even an upgrade sprue would almost be good enough if it gave toe covers for the hooved feet. Or a birdman based Tzeentch army. The mind boggles. Hell, there are several continents that are not fully explored. Rumors of pygmy armies from the Southlands, or the possibility of gorilla based Beastmen. Ind, Cathay, Nippon, Fishmen. There's literally no end to what you could do...
Baron Klatz wrote: Didn't you show your preferred state troops in the TW:W forum and was shown that the 8th ones are actually 6th edition troops while what you thought were 6th are actually 7th edition?
Can anyone here more knowledgeable clarify that? That 8th uses 6th edition troops or was that fellow mistaken?
Anyway, agree to expanding the model ranges and types.
Really what I'd like GW to do, and what i believe should be very cost effective for them, is to release tons of upgrade sprues for all that stuff and to convert current models to discontinued stuff.
Want Tomb kings? Here's the heads, weapons and fancy bits to turn your regular skeletons into them. Bretonnia? Medieval fantasy bits to convert your Empire range or even get creative with Bretonnian undead, Grail Casts or knight elves.
And just a whole mess of crazy parts to turn your beastmen and daemons into a force that looks like a warp stone meteor landed in the Emperor's menagerie.
I am talking about O&G v vs Empire starter set statetroops, those and that era statetroops are superb.
Baron Klatz wrote: Didn't you show your preferred state troops in the TW:W forum and was shown that the 8th ones are actually 6th edition troops while what you thought were 6th are actually 7th edition?
Can anyone here more knowledgeable clarify that? That 8th uses 6th edition troops or was that fellow mistaken?
Anyway, agree to expanding the model ranges and types.
Really what I'd like GW to do, and what i believe should be very cost effective for them, is to release tons of upgrade sprues for all that stuff and to convert current models to discontinued stuff.
Want Tomb kings? Here's the heads, weapons and fancy bits to turn your regular skeletons into them. Bretonnia? Medieval fantasy bits to convert your Empire range or even get creative with Bretonnian undead, Grail Casts or knight elves.
And just a whole mess of crazy parts to turn your beastmen and daemons into a force that looks like a warp stone meteor landed in the Emperor's menagerie.
I am talking about O&G v vs Empire starter set statetroops, those and that era statetroops are superb.
I have a boatload of those, definately not a fan. especially the handgunners. those were awful...the spearmen were odd with that lion head shield.
Huh, I figured ebay and the trade forums would have more available than they do. I saw a couple auctions, that's about it. I imagine if you watched it enough you'd find plenty.
Baron Klatz wrote: Didn't you show your preferred state troops in the TW:W forum and was shown that the 8th ones are actually 6th edition troops while what you thought were 6th are actually 7th edition?
Can anyone here more knowledgeable clarify that? That 8th uses 6th edition troops or was that fellow mistaken?
Anyway, agree to expanding the model ranges and types.
Really what I'd like GW to do, and what i believe should be very cost effective for them, is to release tons of upgrade sprues for all that stuff and to convert current models to discontinued stuff.
Want Tomb kings? Here's the heads, weapons and fancy bits to turn your regular skeletons into them. Bretonnia? Medieval fantasy bits to convert your Empire range or even get creative with Bretonnian undead, Grail Casts or knight elves.
And just a whole mess of crazy parts to turn your beastmen and daemons into a force that looks like a warp stone meteor landed in the Emperor's menagerie.
I am talking about O&G v vs Empire starter set statetroops, those and that era statetroops are superb.
I have a boatload of those, definately not a fan. especially the handgunners. those were awful...the spearmen were odd with that lion head shield.
Well I can agree that those particular the lion shield is wierd, but other that those are decent figs. Also I find the same are hallbadiers and swordmen better then current ones.
Just so we are talking about the same stuff I like those statetroops that has this cover art on its box:
herjan1987 wrote: Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
WHFB-AoS 1:0
Added square bases: WHFB-AoS 2:0
You're so right! And what really shows that they're bringing back WHFB with this release is the way that they included the WHFB rules and templates in the revamped IoB book and absolutely no AoS rules or fluff inside it.Amirite?
herjan1987 wrote: Well folks Age of Sigmar is selling so well they need to bring back the Island of Blood set from Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, which we know was a fan favourite till it got Fantasy was replaced.
WHFB-AoS 1:0
Added square bases: WHFB-AoS 2:0
You're so right! And what really shows that they're bringing back WHFB with this release is the way that they included the WHFB rules and templates in the revamped IoB book and absolutely no AoS rules or fluff inside it.Amirite?
You know what they say:
"Today just square bases. Tommorow the rest of WHFB!"
I think the best we can hope for is an expansion or extra option of play in General's Handbook v2 that allows for rank and file games, similar to what War of the Ring was to LotR Strategy Battle Game.
I'm quietly optimistic GW will make this happen though, as they'd only need to tweak the rules a bit, dig out the WotR movement trays or create some new ones (both of which they can then sell at a huge markup) and they'd bring plenty of old players back into the fold, whilst leaving the core game untouched for those who like it that way.
Baron Klatz wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure they'd do something like that so soon but who knows?
@Herjan, You should get the Grand Alliance books then if you liked that old piece of art. They're full of 8th edition artwork!
6:0
As much as I side with you in as much as I detest AOS, pointing out stuff like this isn't going to sway the faithful at all. And you know the nice part about the way AOS is done right now, is if they pulled the plug on it like they did WFB, then the faithful would have all the gaming material they need to play the game unsupported for decades and decades, they'd just need a hosting site for all the PDFs.
Baron Klatz wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure they'd do something like that so soon but who knows?
@Herjan, You should get the Grand Alliance books then if you liked that old piece of art. They're full of 8th edition artwork!
6:0
As much as I side with you in as much as I detest AOS, pointing out stuff like this isn't going to sway the faithful at all. And you know the nice part about the way AOS is done right now, is if they pulled the plug on it like they did WFB, then the faithful would have all the gaming material they need to play the game unsupported for decades and decades, they'd just need a hosting site for all the PDFs.
Pretty sure he's not caring anything about the... what, faithful?
That'd be a interesting scenario if GW did away with fantasy altogether and AoS went 9th age with something like Age of Glory. (I'm not good with names...)
Maybe we could combine communities for massed ranked battles, skirmish and narrative gameplay.
(Though, admittedly, the 9th age higher-up decisions are discouraging me these days on the project.)
Edit: Of course on further thought, "pulling the plug" on AoS could be made into a interesting compromise for both fantasy groups by making a battle of the gods intro from AoS that takes place in the immaterium while "9th" takes place on the Old World and it's mortal armies can be supported by the divine elite. This would be a preferably post-End Times setting where everyone is fighting for survival and needing all the help they can get.
It'd also be good for GW as they can continue using the AoS & 8th model mix and go from there.
Baron Klatz wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure they'd do something like that so soon but who knows?
@Herjan, You should get the Grand Alliance books then if you liked that old piece of art. They're full of 8th edition artwork!
6:0
As much as I side with you in as much as I detest AOS, pointing out stuff like this isn't going to sway the faithful at all. And you know the nice part about the way AOS is done right now, is if they pulled the plug on it like they did WFB, then the faithful would have all the gaming material they need to play the game unsupported for decades and decades, they'd just need a hosting site for all the PDFs.
As Baron pointed out, I am having a bit of fun, with this score thing.
I believe that both parties could enjoy the Old World, if GW decided to redo easy to play, but hard to master format. Which would incorparate a skirmish and a rank and file playstyle.
Baron Klatz wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure they'd do something like that so soon but who knows?
@Herjan, You should get the Grand Alliance books then if you liked that old piece of art. They're full of 8th edition artwork!
6:0
As much as I side with you in as much as I detest AOS, pointing out stuff like this isn't going to sway the faithful at all. And you know the nice part about the way AOS is done right now, is if they pulled the plug on it like they did WFB, then the faithful would have all the gaming material they need to play the game unsupported for decades and decades, they'd just need a hosting site for all the PDFs.
As Baron pointed out, I am having a bit of fun, with this score thing.
I believe that both parties could enjoy the Old World, if GW decided to redo easy to play, but hard to master format. Which would incorparate a skirmish and a rank and file playstyle.
Would you guys play that game?
I'm more annoyed how much AoS players have invaded our small sub-forum. I understand some Fantasy players gave them crap but it was more us giving AoS crap because GW jammed both middle fingers up Fantasy players ***es without consent.
I haven't even entered the AoS forums and for the most part the Fantasy sub-forum in forever. The whole experience has made me want to give up GW forever and if it wasn't for 40k i would have. Just don't know where to move on from. A part of me tells me with Sisters getting some love, new much wanted sub-factions getting love and old games being re-made that Fantasy will return in some form or another even with AoS still around. This is much how GW should've done it in the first place if Kirby didn't have his head so far up his own *** that he'd become an albino and lost his vision due to being in the dark so long and with doctors telling him his spine had been that way so long that trying to return it to normal posture would break his spine and kill him instantly.
I understand what you mean, and more than anything the presence of the pro-AOS crowd in here comes off more as some sort of outreach program to convince us to play their super spiffy game despite several players reluctance. And more often than not, it either winds up as a patronizing combat or someone basically saying "play it til you like it."
Just Tony wrote: I understand what you mean, and more than anything the presence of the pro-AOS crowd in here comes off more as some sort of outreach program to convince us to play their super spiffy game despite several players reluctance. And more often than not, it either winds up as a patronizing combat or someone basically saying "play it til you like it."
We've got Sigmarine cookies and Tzeentch Cakes! Join us!
Though that one is ironic considering that even back when I wasn't playing AoS I seem to remember the WHFB diehards doing the same, bitterly attacking anyone who had an inkling of interest or like in AoS. To the point where the AoS Forums were always under attack regardless of question asked.
I tend to come in because these conversations are amusing, and to clear up falsehoods generally, plus I still enjoy WHFB.
If an AOS fan has more to contribute than "play AOS" then I would never talk down to their being here. However, it's rarely the case that it happens that way...
ZebioLizard2 wrote: ...bitterly attacking anyone who had an inkling of interest or like in AoS...
There are strawmen on both sides. There are diehard AoS fans who attack WHFB holdouts for being munchkins for whom rules lawyering is more important than fun. There are diehard WHFB holdouts who attack AoS for being braindead small children for whom throwing dice is the most important part of playing the game. Personally I detest AoS but I'd rather not play it and move on with my life rather than keep getting in fights over it and spewing insults at people who don't agree with me, and unfortunately that usually seems to mean not talking about the transition because it's such a polarizing issue.
Warhammer is a more in depth game and players who have invested lots of money on armies, sometimes £500 or more retail value have an expectation to get what they want out of them, and if support is discontinued they have good reason to be salty.
Age of Sigmar is a strange game, it marketed at younger children is very basic yet it has a very extensive and complex model line. Frankly Age of Sigmar rules would be better as a support for a PPP game with miniatures similar on quality and composition to Heroscape. The £70 miniatures really deserve a more in depth ruleset either at skirmish or battle level.
Warhammer has a lore stretching back to the 80's many player grew up with it. We dont like it being pissed on because of mismangement. This mismanagement is our key issue, if WHFB was truly unprofitable Mantic would have been still born as a company, and Privater Press would a slender market share. Fantasy battles are popular and can sell, GW didn't make a decent profit out of WHFB because they dropped the ball, consiste, and have punished the customer base for their own ineptitude.
To the Warhammer fans.
Age of Sigmar is here to stay. Some people like it, that free opinion is to be respected.
The man advantage Age ofSigmar has is that it lowers the ntry lvel for games to pre-teens. This is important. Most teenagers unexposed to the hobby think wargaming is sad and for nerds, pre-teens dont have those hang ups and it becomes acceptible to play in the mainstream. Customers who start as pre-teens don't get the hangups as teenagers that warhammer is uncool. By this act GW widens their customer base extensively. Now while Gw could have chosen another game system as its entry level they chose Age of Sigmar, It is working.
Sigmarines are space marines without guns, they are likely to sell as well. If GW continues to have a rennaissance in management quality they might be comfortable with supporting WHFB as a legacy product at a later date.
If GW continues to have a rennaissance in management quality they might be comfortable with supporting WHFB as a legacy product at a later date.
To your first sentence why does that sentence you wrote sound like you're smoking something really good.
To the second sentence i actually would be totally fine with. I wouldn't even mind if they allowed it to be played as blood bowl was before it got a re-vamp. Preventing us playing a game we spent good money for and whose best option for us was 'bait and switching' us was very alienating. At least the new management seems to know what they're doing.
I don't mind even somewhat bad marketing practices if it slightly tests the players but provides far more good than bad. Kinda like to a degree paid DLC for video games depending on how reasonable the prices for the content given and how badly it's chopped up. That said what GW did killing off Fantasy was by far the worst thing they've ever done to me as a customer. High prices suck but i can deal with it to a degree if the product is good. Rules don't need to be the most balanced but balance should be much better than 40k right now in 7th ed (in 5th the balance was pretty good). It's more about how much good you get out of the hobby vs how bad the hobby has gotten. Sadly for many the bad just outweighed the good. Having a little bad with any hobby is totally normal and to be expected though. New management are fixing some things but some bad things remain (some of the insane prices even if starter sets make it manageable again).
herjan1987 wrote:.
I believe that both parties could enjoy the Old World, if GW decided to redo easy to play, but hard to master format. Which would incorparate a skirmish and a rank and file playstyle.
Would you guys play that game?
I'd certainly get on board with that. I can't see GW changing AoS at all, but adding a rank and file expansion would go a long way to bringing about this sort of game and appeasing many old WHFB into the bargain.
The man advantage Age ofSigmar has is that it lowers the ntry lvel for games to pre-teens. This is important. Most teenagers unexposed to the hobby think wargaming is sad and for nerds, pre-teens dont have those hang ups and it becomes acceptible to play in the mainstream.
While it's true AoS might seem to be addressed to younger buyers, personal observation tells me GW is having more success luring current and former 40k players.
If you have already tried warmahordes or infinity, AoS offers very little new game-wise.
The man advantage Age ofSigmar has is that it lowers the ntry lvel for games to pre-teens. This is important. Most teenagers unexposed to the hobby think wargaming is sad and for nerds, pre-teens dont have those hang ups and it becomes acceptible to play in the mainstream.
While it's true AoS might seem to be addressed to younger buyers, personal observation tells me GW is having more success luring current and former 40k players.
If you have already tried warmahordes or infinity, AoS offers very little new game-wise.
I agree with this so much. Most AoS players i have seen are 40k converts whereas Fantasy players have either moved to 40k or more likely just left entirely. This trend makes me wonder regardless of if AoS gained more customers if it was a net loss for GW overall as it means their 40k players are playing something different but their fantasy players have left completely. Depending on how many new players it draws may be the most telling factor and i don't think i've seen many more new players than 40k has gotten as of late in the store. Can't really say with Fantasy which may very well have had a stagnating player base due to cost and lack of good video games spreading the knowledge of the world of Fantasy mostly i'm sure. Those Fantasy players though were die-hards. The fact GW just threw them out deserves attention. It showed how little Kirby thought of the player base that wasn't Space Marines and under-powered units and armies that would have otherwise been popular if they didn't suck in game (mandrakes and hellions for dark eldar and doom flayer for skaven). This is even when a unit looks cool or stupid at the end of the day all people cared about was how well they did in game usually.
Personally, I'm of the mind set that I think Warhammer Fantasy Battles will actually return, but not to the likes of the number of models and armies they were supporting before. I think WFB will come back in time as a Specialist game. If they created a box set with 2 starter armies and rules similar to 8th edition and had download rules for all the old armies, people would play it in a heartbeat and that box would sell in droves.
In my humble opinion and the biggest problem that AoS and 40k are going to have is that they are now basically the same game. AoS isn't a fantasy game. It's more steam-punk now that in some ways looks more futuristic than 40k does. 40k will sell and always has, but 40k will do more damage to AoS than anything else, because the games feel too close to one another and are modeled too close to one another.
Regardless, I couldn't care less if GW brings back WFB or not. I'm still playing it. In my humble opinion, if 8th edition is the last edition I get, then I'm perfectly happy with it since I think it was probably the best edition of Warhammer GW ever had. I have my armies. I have friends that still have their armies. I still have a ton of models to work on, and I have all the rules to play my armies. What more do I need? The ONLY thing I really miss from GW discontinuing the game is the thriving tournament community and tournaments like The Quake City Rumble (San Francisco), WFB at Adepticon (Chicago), Buckeye Battles (Columbus, Ohio) and others. I miss seeing over 100 players at one time playing WFB. However, many of the models are still available. The rulebooks are worlds cheaper to buy, and I don't have to worry about a new edition rendering my army build unplayable.
End Times? Heck, I've been playing this game for over 25 years and I'm not about to stop playing now.
My problem is that GW discontinued their line of models, especially since I just started getting close to finishing my bretonnian army (I just needed some pegasus knights). I would be perfectly content if they moved those to Made to Order or something (or better yet, sell the molds to a third party like they did with Vedros so they can produce a cheaper alternative).
Wolflord Patrick wrote: Personally, I'm of the mind set that I think Warhammer Fantasy Battles will actually return, but not to the likes of the number of models and armies they were supporting before. I think WFB will come back in time as a Specialist game. If they created a box set with 2 starter armies and rules similar to 8th edition and had download rules for all the old armies, people would play it in a heartbeat and that box would sell in droves.
Well they did so that, it was called Island of Blood and indeed it did sell like hotcakes. But generally I agree, we might see it's return more in line with the era of herohammer where units were smaller. The thing that killed WFB was the increasing size of armies needed at the same time as an increasing price per model; it meant it forced people out of the game and it was only really sustainable for those that bought armies when prices were more rational.
In my humble opinion and the biggest problem that AoS and 40k are going to have is that they are now basically the same game. AoS isn't a fantasy game. It's more steam-punk now that in some ways looks more futuristic than 40k does. 40k will sell and always has, but 40k will do more damage to AoS than anything else, because the games feel too close to one another and are modeled too close to one another.
Again I agree GW have set two games to self compete and I don't think that can be a good thing. 40k is also the better game (although still ends up a bit blobby in the middle). Unless you really like the aesthetics there doesn't appear to be much reason to choose AoS over 40k. it probably won't kill the game in the short term but long term I'm not sure having two games catering to the same players is viable. On the other hand it may be that GW recognise this given the expansion of specialist games.
Regardless, I couldn't care less if GW brings back WFB or not. I'm still playing it. In my humble opinion, if 8th edition is the last edition I get, then I'm perfectly happy with it since I think it was probably the best edition of Warhammer GW ever had. I have my armies. I have friends that still have their armies. I still have a ton of models to work on, and I have all the rules to play my armies.
I think one of the advantages now is that Warhammer can be considered more of a friendly game. The OTT combos seem less prevalent now because people just want to play the game, not just show how superior they can make their army. I think we have lost the ultra competitive types.
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote: My problem is that GW discontinued their line of models, especially since I just started getting close to finishing my bretonnian army (I just needed some pegasus knights). I would be perfectly content if they moved those to Made to Order or something (or better yet, sell the molds to a third party like they did with Vedros so they can produce a cheaper alternative).
I would like to see this too. There are loads of old back catalogue models (e.g. Kislev, DoW) I would like to get my hands on and it would nice to see them return. I'm hoping that once they have finished rerunning the Bloodbowl back catalogue this is what we might see.
First, AOS prepared the market for the change.
Second, AOS showcased a new rules system which was better adapted for 40K anyway due to its abstract nature.
Third, AOS rules could be fixed in situ from feedback to make the 8th 40K.
All in all it has worked out well for 40K. The to hit system never really worked well, there were too few modifiers, whereas the S/T system has been greatly improved to account for the plethora of high strength attacks. Using a unified ruleset for vehicles and monsters also works. I am happy with the new rules in other ways too, the new detachment system works, but hasnt been entirely AOSed.
AOS conversely doesnt need to be shifted to follow 40K, it should be kep as a casual game. However a 9th edition WHFB would be good idea, and with the entry level taken care of the new edition could focus on a more complex and challenging system.
I'm in two thoughts about this. On one hand, I could see them shunting the line over to Forge World/Specialist Games and saying "yeah you can 'officially' play it again" and we end up with a LotR-esq situation.
On the other hand, they may be of the belief that bringing WHFB back - even with diminished support and under another branch - is like admitting defeat. That, and FW seems to be mortified at the idea of producing anything but Space Marines these days (not unlike its parent company).
So eh, do I think it will come back? Probably, but not for a long while.
Arbitrator wrote: I'm in two thoughts about this. On one hand, I could see them shunting the line over to Forge World/Specialist Games and saying "yeah you can 'officially' play it again" and we end up with a LotR-esq situation.
On the other hand, they may be of the belief that bringing WHFB back - even with diminished support and under another branch - is like admitting defeat. That, and FW seems to be mortified at the idea of producing anything but Space Marines these days (not unlike its parent company).
So eh, do I think it will come back? Probably, but not for a long while.
Yup. People need to remember that not all of the enthusiasm that was on display from the studio guys when AoS was being revealed and subsequently expanded could be just marketing, nor was I suspect the motivation for killing WHFB off so thoroughly purely a sales decision.
Both undoubtledly played their respective roles, but really GW didn't need to kill WHFB to release AoS any more than they needed to kill WHFB to release Rogue Trader - just like early 40K despite sharing some proprietary words between them the two are so fundamentally different in theme and tone of fiction and in mechanics of gameplay that they needn't have been related to one another at all beyond that. Their treatment of WHFB was a message - we are done with this, so you're done with it too; get hype for our new project or get gone. There are folk at the studio who think AoS is a genuinely superior setting to WHF, and we know there are plenty folk at GW who really, really like the "Open Play" style of rules-that-are-more-like-guidelines-arr, and for them permitting WHF to return even as a "historical" setting let alone with a retcon to disconnect it from AoS would as Arbitrator says seem like a defeat, like they're admitting publically the work they've done that they believe is superior to their previous work just isn't satisfying a portion of their fanbase.
I don't expect that to change for at least a decade, by which point AoS will be mature enough and the moneymen's desire to exploit nostalgia might possibly be strong enough to overrule any such reservations, but if WHFB is going to survive in the meantime the community will have to do the work just as we did with Necromunda and Mordheim and BFG etc etc(which was why I was so dismayed to see the 9th Age folk start pushing themselves as an actual product and setting, you wonder how much of that was just simple ego and how much was a cynical plan right from the off to co-opt community passion).
WHFB is still ingrained into AOS, for now, though the ements are being systemically burned out.
You can blanket rename factions, it worked for Lizardmen, but they don't have location specific units as say the High Elves do. When they come make an Elfanethi army or whatever they call it, they will basically have to start from scratch. Methinks they are holding back on that.
Ironically half the current paints are named after WHFB location references that do not exist, you can buy a pot of Caledor Sky, Averland Sunset or Khemri Dust but there is no Caledor, no Averland and no Khemri.
I would like to hack the GW website and make the paints section 'honest' by replacing every WHFB referenced paint with a can of Chaos Black. Maybe next April 1st.....
I am not a hold out for Warhammer Fantasy.. I left the game when it ended.
Felt that Age of Sigmar was a Political Correct version of the game.. Yes Games Workshop could have just release it parallel of
the WHFB system but they went with the scorched earth way instead. When I was a teenager, I wanted large books to prove
that I could read difficult things and for it to be published in a foreign country was just icing on the cake. Now we have a culture
that you must include everyone. So drop the bar so low that anyone can cross, not saying there is nothing to AOS. But how
many magic players do you see rushing out to try a SPI game.
We all agreed at the end of Eight edition something need to be done.. even going into eight GW kept moving the bar up on what
was needed to play the game..More rules, More models, More everything.. I really wondered if we would see them making movement
bases that was based on hundred counts.
GW could have created a Mordhiem style game to fix the entry level and figure count versus cost, just as they are doing right now
with "Path to Glory" but I feel they had painted themselves into a corner on background.also You have most armies came from a certain
region and it became hard to explain why the "want to be left alone race" was fighting another army that resides on the other side of the world.
Instead of fixing very obvious problems as many have already put it, we got a parody of a game we loved for decades. Even if the game came back,
I have moved on to other things now...But if they can kill off Warhammer.. Nothing is stopping them from doing the same to Age of Sigmar.
Hello! I am in a Product Development consultancy job, so GW's attempts to move and change are quite familair in my world.
I have a few examples. New Coke. Black Costume Spider-Man.
GW are missing out on a lot of money, if they haven't yet realised the value of their old products.
If I was them, I'd give it another 18 months to 2 years and then launch "Classic Warhammer". They could ride a wave of nostalgia for it, and possibly (unlike New Coke) create a third brand for GW.
Baron Klatz wrote: Doesn't their renewed focus on LotR mean they've been looking at those rules? Their community website even puts a spotlight on those Ironhill dwarves.
War of the Rings and The Hobbit Strategy Battle Game are two very different game systems. WotR is a unit based game similar to WFB that places round-based LotR figures into movement trays to form units. The Hobbit (the most recent revision to the original Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game) uses individual round based figures that move and fight independently. The Hobbit SBG is the rules system that is getting the renewed attention. AFAIK, WorR is still dead and I have heard of no plans to revive it.
Baron Klatz wrote: Haha don't worry, I certainly don't hold that belief at this point.
Grensche wrote: So is there a rumor that the Old World is coming back? Because you're getting my hopes up like Metallica writing a good album.
Nah, thread starter just thought TWW would make a revival for the Tabletop Old World and was grasping at straws.
It still true though: I don't think GW anticipated the success of Total War Warhammer. Otherwise, they would have never done what they did. What I wonder is - similar to 30k and 40k - if there's an opportunity to re-start the setting and WFB game with the release of Warhammer 3, coming out likely in 2019. You can play on the nostalgia, and attract allt he player that the computer game will have built up by then.
It's a pity too, because with the new Bretonnian units and such, there could have been somewhat parallel development of 8th and 9th edition and the game. Huge missed opportunity in every sense of the word.
Pretty sure Brets would've died either way. Easier to profit off their models on a digital format than a plastic one where hundreds of cheap alternatives exist. (Same reason CA isn't hot on mods, free and content filled fan-mods>official and pricy dlc's)
Since they have to do their planning years in advance and 2016 they announced they had everything ready and planned out for AoS for the next five years that likely means they won't be able to do anything until 2022 where TWW hype has died down, more competitors filling the market with rank games and low fantasy models.
Only GW has any say-so in the end but definitely looks easier to keep profiting off nostalgia through videogames, rpgs and cards instead of models that'll still be hit with copyright and design changes that'll turn off the Old World crowd.
Baron Klatz wrote: Doesn't their renewed focus on LotR mean they've been looking at those rules? Their community website even puts a spotlight on those Ironhill dwarves.
War of the Rings and The Hobbit Strategy Battle Game are two very different game systems. WotR is a unit based game similar to WFB that places round-based LotR figures into movement trays to form units. The Hobbit (the most recent revision to the original Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game) uses individual round based figures that move and fight independently. The Hobbit SBG is the rules system that is getting the renewed attention. AFAIK, WorR is still dead and I have heard of no plans to revive it.
In my humble opinion, the War of the Ring game and the Hobbit license are a big reason why Warhammer Fantasy Battle suffered sales wise. It's biggest competition was within it's own house with a different fantasy game. GW cashed in big time with the Lord of the Rings movies, but in all fairness the game they should have been cashing in was Warhammer Fantasy Battle. If you think about it, how many of us when we saw the battle for Helm's Deep or the battle for Gondor got inspired to build, paint, and play Warhammer Fantasy? The same thing when the last Hobbit movie came out and was titled The Battle of the Five Armies. I wanted a Dwarf Slayer Lord riding a pony! GW should have been using those movies as a base to pump out Warhammer Fantasy like hot-cakes and what resulted instead was the End Times and the end of an entire game system that's ran over 30+ years. Horrible....
Don't be daft. They were never competing because they were totally different game systems. If anything, War of the Rings failure was the writing on the wall for Fantasy in general. It pretty much spoke that nobody cared about rank and file games at that point. Fantasy hung on for a while longer because it was legacy, otherwise it would have died a lot sooner.
Baron Klatz wrote: Pretty sure Brets would've died either way. Easier to profit off their models on a digital format than a plastic one where hundreds of cheap alternatives exist. (Same reason CA isn't hot on mods, free and content filled fan-mods>official and pricy dlc's)
Since they have to do their planning years in advance and 2016 they announced they had everything ready and planned out for AoS for the next five years that likely means they won't be able to do anything until 2022 where TWW hype has died down, more competitors filling the market with rank games and low fantasy models.
Only GW has any say-so in the end but definitely looks easier to keep profiting off nostalgia through videogames, rpgs and cards instead of models that'll still be hit with copyright and design changes that'll turn off the Old World crowd.
Mmm.. can't say I agree much with you - and that's fine! As I see it, there's no reason for bretts to die if it could have been combined with a "start collecting" box to coincide with the launch of the Old World Edition back in February when Foot Squires, Royal Hippogryph Knights and others came into play.
but more improtantly, I can't quite agree with your other points either. Sure, it's easier to profit off digital items than physical ones, but that extends to everything. with that mindset, let's go ahead and close the mini production, and just start doing video games and e-books to drive the story. The competition aspect will always exist no matter what - WFB was in the driver's seat in R&F games fantasy games. Kings of War was nothing, and 9th didn't exist. Sure, there were competing minis, but that'll awlays happen. That's why you sell the IP - you sell the story. Instead of being lazy and looking for a monopoly. The example of CA and mods isn't quite relevant, because there's a very defined fence around CA games. I can't use a world of warcraft unit to play in a Total War game, like you can buy a mantic mini and use it for Warhammer.
There were issues with WFB - cost to entry - both in time and money - being the main one. Needing to memorize a 200+ page rule book, etc. Plus, GW attempted to get into video games with many other games that didn't pan out - Warhammer Online being the king of those. So it's understandable that expectations maybe weren't as high for TWW. But it doesn't take away the fact that closing WFB right when TWW was coming out was short sighted.
Thank God GW never made those squires canon. They're completely unloreful to Bretonnia and just a lazy trick by CA to appease their infantry obsessed fanbase(the sword men-at-arms are even worse ) They even screwed up the lore on them at first by saying they're nobles but still count as peasants. Booo CA!
Anyway it's more about IP protection than trying for a monopoly, especially at this point with so many competitors.
In anycase, I was just confirming there's no "classic warhammer" rumor and TWW won't make a revival of the game.
Baron Klatz wrote:Pretty sure Brets would've died either way. Easier to profit off their models on a digital format than a plastic one where hundreds of cheap alternatives exist. (Same reason CA isn't hot on mods, free and content filled fan-mods>official and pricy dlc's)
Since they have to do their planning years in advance and 2016 they announced they had everything ready and planned out for AoS for the next five years that likely means they won't be able to do anything until 2022 where TWW hype has died down, more competitors filling the market with rank games and low fantasy models.
Only GW has any say-so in the end but definitely looks easier to keep profiting off nostalgia through videogames, rpgs and cards instead of models that'll still be hit with copyright and design changes that'll turn off the Old World crowd.
Unless GW took the molds from their older model sets and slagged them there is NOTHING stopping them from doing a WFB revival. The only issue I see them having is trying to get a ruleset everyone can get behind. Look at the current WFB community, you have splinter groups playing damn near EVERY edition. Hell, there was a 6th Edition WFB tourney in Spain earlier this year, I believe. I'll have to check on Classichammer to see when it happened. *****EDIT: turns out it was April 1st of this year, elendor posted a batrep about it.***** But the fact that it even HAPPENED tells you that there are more than one viable set to run with. If they decide to put 8th back out, there are more than a few potential players who will flat out refuse to get the rules. Sure, the model sales will still be decent as long as the prices aren't set to "gold pressed latinum", but as far as gaming presence, you wouldn't see as much. If you pick ANY set, there are detractors. 6th with Ravening Hordes was about the closest we came to having a consensus, but the army books quickly ruined that.
But in my mind, since they still have access to the molds, they could do a hot wash release in less than 6 months.
I never understand the whole "there's competition so they're right to give up" thing.
I don't think I saw anyone IRL using cheap historicals for Warhammer armies in the entire time I was involved with the game from way back in 4th, and it wasn't even really "a thing" in online communities until the tail end of 7th and into 8th when GW's own hideous mismanagement of the IP and increasingly ludicrous buy-in price for a new unit began driving people to look elsewhere.
Historicals might be more prevalent than 3rd party "not-GW" miniatures in the hobby market in general, but from what I've seen online & off they didn't have any more penetration of GW's own part of it, and I don't see anyone arguing that GW should blow up 40K because one in every thousand people decides to buy not-Space Marines instead of actual Space Marines.
Besides which, there are other metrics on which to compete than price - it's hypothetically possible to play 40K with pound-shop Army Men toys, but not many folk do. Even when directly comparable and aesthetically compatible alternatives exist a large majority still prefer "official" product. And I don't buy the "but they weren't fantastical/different enough" thing either; all the WHF armies had plenty of elements in them that didn't lend themselves to easy substitution, GW merely had to ensure that the "but" part of "like X, but..." for each army was sufficiently compelling and the rest of the scale- and aesthetic-matched miniatures weren't too expensive. It was the latter test they failed, not the former.
I think, like the studio themselves, a few people who've jumped on board the AoS train have mistaken "I am bored of this thing" with "this thing is boring".
I truly wish WHFB would come back, but I doubt that it will. I can dream though, damn it. I am still a hold out at my store with a few like minded souls, we still play 8th regularly. A few do play AoS too but not as much as 8th thank God.
WHFB's return would be amazing and would herald a new golden age for fantasy gamers and GW alike. Crowds would flock to the stores in eager anticipation, ready to start playing again and sales would rise massively.
sadly it will never happen.
GW has moved on to AoS (otherwise known as "push models to the centre and make fighty noises whilst rolling some dice") which is pretty much a dumbed down game with zero tactical depth whatsoever (despite the claims of many players). I have heard people say that it has depth because you have objectives to capture or goals to achieve, but in all honesty this is rubbish. Terrain has no effect on movement or shooting, your unit is basically a blob of skirmishers and flanking is no longer a thing. Furthermore the game has pretty much come down to "take the biggest nastiest power units and stomp" as anything less will be wiped from the board.
Tactical movement? Choosing between charging and getting the initiative or shooting to soften up but receiving the charge in return? Watching your flanks, ensuring you have covering units in the rear? All gone now kiddo's, your units can move any which way, terrain does not effect them and you can shoot into combat so why not charge! Flanks, who needs those amiright!?!
No, I miss the old days and long for their return, but AoS is here to stay. GW caters to children and it is far easier to sell a game that plays like a computer game than a game that requires any actual thinking. All we oldtimers can do is sit back and remember the days of amassed blocks, flanking charges and mind games, and the major decision of whether to charge or not.
Or, you know, just carry on playing the older editions/9th age and do our best to forget about toyhammer.
master of ordinance wrote: WHFB's return would be amazing and would herald a new golden age for fantasy gamers and GW alike. Crowds would flock to the stores in eager anticipation, ready to start playing again and sales would rise massively.
sadly it will never happen.
GW has moved on to AoS (otherwise known as "push models to the centre and make fighty noises whilst rolling some dice") which is pretty much a dumbed down game with zero tactical depth whatsoever (despite the claims of many players). I have heard people say that it has depth because you have objectives to capture or goals to achieve, but in all honesty this is rubbish. Terrain has no effect on movement or shooting, your unit is basically a blob of skirmishers and flanking is no longer a thing. Furthermore the game has pretty much come down to "take the biggest nastiest power units and stomp" as anything less will be wiped from the board.
Tactical movement? Choosing between charging and getting the initiative or shooting to soften up but receiving the charge in return? Watching your flanks, ensuring you have covering units in the rear? All gone now kiddo's, your units can move any which way, terrain does not effect them and you can shoot into combat so why not charge! Flanks, who needs those amiright!?!
No, I miss the old days and long for their return, but AoS is here to stay. GW caters to children and it is far easier to sell a game that plays like a computer game than a game that requires any actual thinking. All we oldtimers can do is sit back and remember the days of amassed blocks, flanking charges and mind games, and the major decision of whether to charge or not.
Or, you know, just carry on playing the older editions/9th age and do our best to forget about toyhammer.
Nothing quite like hyperbole and throwing all your toys out of the pram is there?
It does have an effect on those things and it's encouraged to put lots of scenery and terrain down to give armies more tactical options.
Heck, scenery even have their own warscrolls.
(And sales are already rising massively, haha)
You know at some point people are going to start giving AoS fans a taste of their own medicine and demand they bog off to their own corner of the forum and stop bothering WHF fans in ours(with the main difference being this place is actually supposed to be ours, the mods didn't just appropriate it from AoS fans on our behalf and banish you lot while keeping loads of AoS threads in the old forum to artificially inflate its initial popularity).
master of ordinance wrote: WHFB's return would be amazing and would herald a new golden age for fantasy gamers and GW alike. Crowds would flock to the stores in eager anticipation, ready to start playing again and sales would rise massively.
sadly it will never happen.
GW has moved on to AoS (otherwise known as "push models to the centre and make fighty noises whilst rolling some dice") which is pretty much a dumbed down game with zero tactical depth whatsoever (despite the claims of many players). I have heard people say that it has depth because you have objectives to capture or goals to achieve, but in all honesty this is rubbish. Terrain has no effect on movement or shooting, your unit is basically a blob of skirmishers and flanking is no longer a thing. Furthermore the game has pretty much come down to "take the biggest nastiest power units and stomp" as anything less will be wiped from the board.
Tactical movement? Choosing between charging and getting the initiative or shooting to soften up but receiving the charge in return? Watching your flanks, ensuring you have covering units in the rear? All gone now kiddo's, your units can move any which way, terrain does not effect them and you can shoot into combat so why not charge! Flanks, who needs those amiright!?!
No, I miss the old days and long for their return, but AoS is here to stay. GW caters to children and it is far easier to sell a game that plays like a computer game than a game that requires any actual thinking. All we oldtimers can do is sit back and remember the days of amassed blocks, flanking charges and mind games, and the major decision of whether to charge or not.
Or, you know, just carry on playing the older editions/9th age and do our best to forget about toyhammer.
Looks like we found the guy that set his army on fire after AoS dropped
It does have an effect on those things and it's encouraged to put lots of scenery and terrain down to give armies more tactical options.
Heck, scenery even have their own warscrolls.
(And sales are already rising massively, haha)
You know at some point people are going to start giving AoS fans a taste of their own medicine and demand they bog off to their own corner of the forum and stop bothering WHF fans in ours(with the main difference being this place is actually supposed to be ours, the mods didn't just appropriate it from AoS fans on our behalf and banish you lot while keeping loads of AoS threads in the old forum to artificially inflate its initial popularity).
Dude... that's just lame. Do you think anyone in the forums cares about the traffic they get? Except the staff of course. Learn to love, not to hate.
Nothing quite like hyperbole and throwing all your toys out of the pram is there?
Ah look, the first of the inevitable AoS fanboy's flocking to tell us why AoS is so good and WHFB is inherently bad by default. You know, AoS fans are to Fantasy as /pol/ is to 4chan. We give them their own (quite extensive) bit and let them be but they just cannot resist butting into every other fantasy thread and spewing their tripe everywhere.
Baron Klatz wrote:
It does have an effect on those things and it's encouraged to put lots of scenery and terrain down to give armies more tactical options.
Heck, scenery even have their own warscrolls.
(And sales are already rising massively, haha)
Last time I played (on a friends birthday) the terrain had zero effect. So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
motski wrote:
Looks like we found the guy that set his army on fire after AoS dropped
Nope, sadly I dont have that much money to (literally) burn Still, my Dwarfs, Skaven, High Elves and Brettonians have all been largely relegated to storage, baring the odd fantasy game that I manage to snatch.
So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
So taking from that example you had tiny bits of terrain neither suited for chokepoints, blocking LoS nor breaking up a formation but would've gotten in the way of rank and file troops who couldn't seperate.
If that's the case I could see why it didn't effect the game.
I really am wondering if the age of ranked battles is just no more. I converted over to Kings of War, only to realize that game is just not getting adopted here (or, largely, in much of the US).
Rune Wars did not get a stellar reception, and I'm wondering how Game of Thrones will do? It's a shame because it's my favorite game type. At this point, I'm wondering if maybe it can only succeed at a smaller scale, so the time/money investment in creating an army isn't so steep. Without the established market that was WHFB, it seems to be a big ask / huge barrier to entry for other games to succeed with this model.
Nothing quite like hyperbole and throwing all your toys out of the pram is there?
Ah look, the first of the inevitable AoS fanboy's flocking to tell us why AoS is so good and WHFB is inherently bad by default. You know, AoS fans are to Fantasy as /pol/ is to 4chan. We give them their own (quite extensive) bit and let them be but they just cannot resist butting into every other fantasy thread and spewing their tripe everywhere.
Baron Klatz wrote:
It does have an effect on those things and it's encouraged to put lots of scenery and terrain down to give armies more tactical options.
Heck, scenery even have their own warscrolls.
(And sales are already rising massively, haha)
Last time I played (on a friends birthday) the terrain had zero effect. So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
motski wrote:
Looks like we found the guy that set his army on fire after AoS dropped
Nope, sadly I dont have that much money to (literally) burn Still, my Dwarfs, Skaven, High Elves and Brettonians have all been largely relegated to storage, baring the odd fantasy game that I manage to snatch.
I honestly find it funny you virtually resort to strawmaning and namecalling to argue with others that have said nothing on the matter.
On another point, having plenty of terrain, AND giving them the rules they can get, does add a ton of fun there.
So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
So taking from that example you had tiny bits of terrain neither suited for chokepoints, blocking LoS nor breaking up a formation but would've gotten in the way of rank and file troops who couldn't seperate.
If that's the case I could see why it didn't effect the game.
Might be - I dont recall the table being terrain heavy. That said most of the AoS and 40K games played at my club tand to be what I would call terrain-lite
Lord Kragan wrote:
I honestly find it funny you virtually resort to strawmaning and namecalling to argue with others that have said nothing on the matter.
On another point, having plenty of terrain, AND giving them the rules they can get, does add a ton of fun there.
Yup, definitely /pol/ing.
Please call up one example in the post that you quoted where I strawmanned and resorted to baseless namecalling against others whom have said nothing on the matter. You do know where you are right? This is the WHFB Legacy Discussion board, not the AoS boards. If you want to talk about how great AoS is then go to the AoS boards, goddess knows you've got plenty of them to choose from. If you will insist on coming here then at least accept that a lot of long time fantasy players (including myself) are very salty about the game and world we loved so much being blown up and being replaced (from our perspective) by something that was comparatively shallow.
You know at some point people are going to start giving AoS fans a taste of their own medicine and demand they bog off to their own corner of the forum and stop bothering WHF fans in ours(with the main difference being this place is actually supposed to be ours, the mods didn't just appropriate it from AoS fans on our behalf and banish you lot while keeping loads of AoS threads in the old forum to artificially inflate its initial popularity).
No one told you to "bog off" when you started that thread on TGA a few months ago, at least not at first.
Anyway it's pretty hilarious you're claiming this forum as your own little safe space that those evil AoS fans aren't allowed to bother you in. Whatever happened to discussion forums being for discussing things?
Oh, so just yet another person who seems to have forgotten that this is a discussion forum for discussing things, and not the inside of their own head.
Jolly good spot of beating there fine chap, now Umbubu be a good chap and fetch myself and the Baron our Sigmarite guns will you?
On a more serious note, Motski, you have no right to come on to this board and start spouting things like "your little safe space" at us. If you want to feel all rosy and talk about AoS then go there. This board, not forum, board is dedicated to WHFB. Thats WarHammer Fantasy Battles. NotAoS or Age of Sigmar.If you want to talk about AoS then feel free to visit the entire subforum dedicated to it and post there, but do not come to our last little bit of land and start insulting us, shouting accusations and in all general aspects behaving like a true asshat. Feel free to post constructively, have a laugh and talk about the subject at hand, but do not attempt to derail threads with screams of AoSfanboism.
We do not like AoS.
You do.
We are on a WHFB board.
You are also on a WHFB board.
Now, can you tell me who might be in the wrong environment here?
Nothing quite like hyperbole and throwing all your toys out of the pram is there?
Ah look, the first of the inevitable AoS fanboy's flocking to tell us why AoS is so good and WHFB is inherently bad by default. You know, AoS fans are to Fantasy as /pol/ is to 4chan. We give them their own (quite extensive) bit and let them be but they just cannot resist butting into every other fantasy thread and spewing their tripe everywhere.
Baron Klatz wrote:
It does have an effect on those things and it's encouraged to put lots of scenery and terrain down to give armies more tactical options.
Heck, scenery even have their own warscrolls.
(And sales are already rising massively, haha)
Last time I played (on a friends birthday) the terrain had zero effect. So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
motski wrote:
Looks like we found the guy that set his army on fire after AoS dropped
Nope, sadly I dont have that much money to (literally) burn Still, my Dwarfs, Skaven, High Elves and Brettonians have all been largely relegated to storage, baring the odd fantasy game that I manage to snatch.
I don't believe i mentioned either AoS being good or WFB being bad. As it is i've been a WFB player since 3rd edition and an AoS player since it's beginning and still enjoy both. I was just pointing out a whiny and pathetic little child who can't get over themselves. But then you are a channer, so that explains you pretty well frankly.
Jolly good spot of beating there fine chap, now Umbubu be a good chap and fetch myself and the Baron our Sigmarite guns will you?
I say, are the guns for a sporting hunt together with a spot of Cathayan tea or are we having a bit of a gentlemen's duel with a a five paced firing at sun's first light?
So going from my experience it does not, and even if it does the nature of movement within the game allows units to simply walk around smaller chunks.
So taking from that example you had tiny bits of terrain neither suited for chokepoints, blocking LoS nor breaking up a formation but would've gotten in the way of rank and file troops who couldn't seperate.
If that's the case I could see why it didn't effect the game.
Might be - I dont recall the table being terrain heavy. That said most of the AoS and 40K games played at my club tand to be what I would call terrain-lite
Lord Kragan wrote:
I honestly find it funny you virtually resort to strawmaning and namecalling to argue with others that have said nothing on the matter.
On another point, having plenty of terrain, AND giving them the rules they can get, does add a ton of fun there.
Yup, definitely /pol/ing.
Please call up one example in the post that you quoted where I strawmanned and resorted to baseless namecalling against others whom have said nothing on the matter. You do know where you are right? This is the WHFB Legacy Discussion board, not the AoS boards. If you want to talk about how great AoS is then go to the AoS boards, goddess knows you've got plenty of them to choose from. If you will insist on coming here then at least accept that a lot of long time fantasy players (including myself) are very salty about the game and world we loved so much being blown up and being replaced (from our perspective) by something that was comparatively shallow.
Okay, you're calling people the worst cancer of the internet. Twice. You also went on and commented how he was coming here to say how AoS was the bestest thing and WHFB was bad... despite him saying NOTHING in the matter. You honestly have no right to demand others being understanding when you're being this much of a prick when the other (not, me I'm not free of blame, tbh) DIDN'T INVITE IT. Same goes for the constructiveness claims, something you didn't do either.
Woah guys definitely violating some rules here. Don't make me call a mod for all of you.
I still dislike AoS myself but i haven't really played Fantasy either since GW killed it. While it pissed me off greatly i can accept some people play AoS. However not many are playing in the store. Far as i can see the numbers don't really seem all that different to Fantasy Battles which leads me to question why they didn't just kill off both games. However considering the fallout from Fantasy dying i imagine that's probably why they didn't kill AoS too. I think you AoS players should understand i probably spent well over a thousand dollars for WFB and being told it's the only game i can't play at GW and that i have to convert to AoS isn't fair or nice. If AoS didn't live off our dead game i wouldn't have cared. You guys could've played Ball Fondling the game for all i care. However it did live off the death of our game and it basically added all the things i disliked about 40k to it and then threw in some more for good measure. It's like seeing the Star Wars original trilogy get trampled by the prequel trilogy only this time you had to spend 1,000 dollars and now you have to convert over. It wasn't an easy thing for us. I basically just dropped fantasy and went to 40k but i look to maybe have a couple games of Fantasy 8th ed on universal battle when i can.
Also please don't throw out some of those WHFB to AoS statistics. I've seen how many people play in our store and it's as many or less than WHFB was when Fantasy died (though it is 2 years after Fantasy died). Also Total War Warhammer is extremely successful so clearly it's popular just maybe GW marketed their version of the game poorly. I'm not even saying WHFB was not a failing game. It clearly needed a reboot i just think AoS wasn't it or they could go about it like 30k is for 40k and just add it to the forge world site and let both games live. I'm being nice here rather than the kill one or another type behavior.
Also please don't throw out some of those WHFB to AoS statistics. I've seen how many people play in our store and it's as many or less than WHFB was when Fantasy died
You do see the hypocrisy here, right?
Anyway, I just popped in for a rule clarification. If you guys went on more about how great Wfb was and cast less stones at AoS then there would be no need for us to even comment here.
Also please don't throw out some of those WHFB to AoS statistics. I've seen how many people play in our store and it's as many or less than WHFB was when Fantasy died
You do see the hypocrisy here, right?
Anyway, I just popped in for a rule clarification. If you guys went on more about how great Wfb was and cast less stones at AoS then there would be no need for us to even comment here.
I also said that it was 2 years after fantasy died that i saw those numbers. It's probably too far down the road to tell if it's as popular when you judge 2 years after the fact.
I don't believe i mentioned either AoS being good or WFB being bad. As it is i've been a WFB player since 3rd edition and an AoS player since it's beginning and still enjoy both. I was just pointing out a whiny and pathetic little child who can't get over themselves. But then you are a channer, so that explains you pretty well frankly.
Ouch, you sound upset. At what point did I start whining like a child? As I recall I put forward my own views on the subject and was promptly attacked by the AoS diehards insisting that I had to be wrong.
Anyway, what is wrong with 4chan? Oh yes, it is a veritable haven of spite and faggotry, but there are also good bits. /tg/ for instance, and I have gotten involved with several online RPG's thanks to various anon's advertising them in threads.
Lord Kragan wrote:
Okay, you're calling people the worst cancer of the internet. Twice. You also went on and commented how he was coming here to say how AoS was the bestest thing and WHFB was bad... despite him saying NOTHING in the matter. You honestly have no right to demand others being understanding when you're being this much of a prick when the other (not, me I'm not free of blame, tbh) DIDN'T INVITE IT. Same goes for the constructiveness claims, something you didn't do either.
No, I commented on how their posting antics take up a similar attitude, namely they come to a completely jappy and innocent board, pick a thread and then start posting in it, telling people about how bad X is, etc, and then get butthurt when they are told to get out, finally resorting to baseless insults.
I actually believe that the people I quoted did come here precisely to defend AoS and attack the WHFB fans, of course that was my interpretation and I may be wrong.
Hahahaha, me being the prick. Pot calling the kettle, no?
Constructive claims? List them. All I got was "AoS is GREAT, you should accept it and your views dont count unles you do"
Baron Klatz wrote:
Jolly good spot of beating there fine chap, now Umbubu be a good chap and fetch myself and the Baron our Sigmarite guns will you?
I say, are the guns for a sporting hunt together with a spot of Cathayan tea or are we having a bit of a gentlemen's duel with a a five paced firing at sun's first light?
Quite so good sir, and may I complement you on your choice of dress today. That hunting jacket is such a spiffing shade of red. Now, shall it be my pistol set or yours good sir?
) They even screwed up the lore on them at first by saying they're nobles but still count as peasants. Booo 
