I feel like the new supplement is such a shift from normal CSM that I think it deserves a thread of it's own.
Nice combos between relics, thoughts on competitiveness, strong builds for your legion, you name it. Bring it on.

I thought I'd start by highlighting some interesting new twists for each legion.
The Black Legion can now do a null deployment while at the same times bringing the entire army in on turn one (by deepstrike no less) and can all but guarantee getting the dimensional key to trigger.

Alpha legion put the cypher dataslate formation to shame. They can infiltrate their entire army if they wanted to and it still stacks with Huron/ahriman since you can easily bring another detachment with either of those to infiltrate bigger things

Iron warriors are the bane of existance vs any fortification if you combine them with forgeworld lol, crank that siege gear up to 11. They're now themed around sitting in fortifications, I'm curious how that will affect list building.

Nightlords essentially get army wide shroud during the first turn now. So any daemon prince has a 2+ jink during that first turn, not just nurgle. Plus they get some reserve manipulation, so those raptor talons can come on a 2+.

Word bearers dark apostles all get a Crozius of the dark covenant for free, suck it crimson slaughter! Plus it works on a prince. Their decurion bonus is missing from the leak so I'm not sure how this changes things.

World eaters can have the longest charge range in the game by a country mile. A maelstrom juggerlord has a potential turn 1 charge range of 48 inch XD. Even outside of that and not in the formation he can threaten anything in a 30 inch radius. No need for the psychic lottery to get that elusive turn 1 charge here.

Thousand Sons play so differently from vanilla CSM that they might as well be a new faction lol. And they get new units!
Now to find out if scarab occult can replace termies in a terminator annihilation force.

Death guard probably got the strongest passive legion buffs of all. Relentless, fearless and fnp...jebus. And they can apply that to the purge detachment as well so you can have troop deathguard termies. They seem like the easiest to incorporate forgeworld units.

Emperors chidlren gain a whole new gameplay mechanic in combat drugs. Wonder if fabius will make a return here with upgraded basic marines on top of combat drugs. Their relics are really good. Shriekwave in a terminator annihilation force...mmmh. If bolts of vexation apply to the unit, that might be interesting in a rapier battery with quad bolters or even a basic marine blob. 40 blasts ought to do some damage.

Sooooo, World Eaters... Where to put the talisman? Big zerker blob? But then you have to field a lot of zerkers. In a warband list, maybe bikers or raptors? Could the talisman make terminators work?
So many options...

The obvious answer is in a single unit of a few Juggerlords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Obliterators got the biggest buff ever from Death Guard. FNP AND T5? That's pretty fething good for them as they can even just footslog and be okay from it

To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

The word bearer detachment bonus is apparently crusader and a boon a turn. Nothing to write home about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm currently thinking of tweaking my normal list to have a WE juggerlord, with one unit of gorepack hounds, with the bonus movement relic.

Then as the WE troop, 20 marines.

Then.. a TS character(s) somehow, for the jump relic, and psychic support (preferably the cyclopea cabal, if that's possible, or an allied detachment, if that a possible, or maybe a TS coven..)
Add maulerfiends... See how that looks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope fabius gets some rules. He's the spiritual leader of my army , but hasn't hit the table in years.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Where do you see the Night Lords reserves manipulation?

I'm going through the list of relics right now.
Alpha legions Mindveil seems amazing. Not only does it add a ton of movement but you also can't be tarpitted anymore, like, at all. And you can add it to anything, since AL don't need to be marked.
Combined with the talsiman, any 12 inch unit can move a minimum of 18 inch, giving you a minimum of 23 inch to charge. Probably overkill though, since those two characters are stuck with default weapons. Might make mutilators more interesting though lol

I don't get the idea behind the warpsmith relic to possess your vehicles. You get to reduce their WS/BS...erm...ok? What few transports we bring these days are better off buying it if you're not taking extra armour. What's the appeal here?

The Claws of the black hunt might be interesting for a prince. The name implies that's a pair, so a khorne prince could get furious charge and +1 attack. S7 AP2 rending, shred and mastercrafted. And it would have a 2+ jink save during turn 1. Although tzeentch would be nice too for a 3+ rerollable jink all the time. Then again, at 10 points the scourging chain isn't bad on a Slaaneshi prince. It would still be S6 rending and shred

For word bearers a prince with maelfic tome seems almost mandatory. Should you combine it with kasyr lutien you are all but guaranteed to manifest. The baelful iron could make for a trolltastic but pointless unit. Combine that with the relic from Thsouand Sons to reduce charge distance and the opponent would have -4 to charge, would have to re-roll if he does make it and even then doesn't get bonus attacks lol

The World eater relics are kinda meh apart from the talisman. They can still take the axe of blind fury which is better than all of the weapons they get now. Gorefather is decent on a prince though if you want some anti tank, but I feel like raptors/bikes make better anti tank units in a WE detachment. Berzerkers glaive could be good on a otherwise naked juggerlord, or a prince.

Thousand Sons get some fun relics. The jump grimoire and seers bane are amazing. It's like tzeentch got jealous of the axe of blind fury. Just don't give it to a prince with their leadership 9 -_-. Could combine with night lords or emperors children with their - leadership penalties. You only need minus 2 to wound everything on a 2+.

Poxwalker Hive might be interesting with the Crimson Slaughter formation to ad 2-9 zombies each turn and you might even skip typhus since this seems to be aoe. You only need to hit them once to make them zombies.
The rest of their relics aren't all that intersting. Plaguebringer is cool and all, but it the black mace is still better. Although I suppose this is better for non prince characters.

I already mention shriek wave for a terminator annihilation, but good god. 2d6 S8 AP2 shots that might even re-roll to wound oO. And if you happen to be running two formations you could even add the brand to this.

Are we sure Mindveil is unit? I read it as the character.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Where do you see the Night Lords reserves manipulation?

Viox Daemonicus (30) enemy w/in 6” -1 Ldsh & -1 from reserve rolls


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Are we sure Mindveil is unit? I read it as the character.

That'y why I said seems. As a unit buff it's crazy, as a character buff...eeeeh.

Frontline gaming has a different description up - its unit!

Artifact: The Mindveil: In the movement phase you can choose to move the bearer and his unit up to 3d6″ instead of moving normally…even if you’re locked in combat. Cool!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Frontline gaming has a different description up - its unit!

Artifact: The Mindveil: In the movement phase you can choose to move the bearer and his unit up to 3d6″ instead of moving normally…even if you’re locked in combat. Cool!

Oh, can we have a link please ? That also means it doesn't stack with fast movement so that combo is dead.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/04/traitor-legions-preview-part-2-of-2/#comment-530789

Hmm, still going over it, but it appears the NL reserve thing is against enemy reserve rolls, not yours. Not that that is a bad thing though.

 Roknar wrote:

Thousand Sons get some fun relics. The jump grimoire and seers bane are amazing. It's like tzeentch got jealous of the axe of blind fury. Just don't give it to a prince with their leadership 9 -_-.

All a TS-Prince needs is the repelling sweep mace (forgot it's name.)
+2 Str, Concussive and -2" move to enemies charging you for a measly 10 points? Yes please!

stormcraft wrote:
Sooooo, World Eaters... Where to put the talisman? Big zerker blob? But then you have to field a lot of zerkers. In a warband list, maybe bikers or raptors? Could the talisman make terminators work?
So many options...

The talisman can make literally any unit work in a WE detachment, that is tosay : reach combat without getting molested. Well at least for one turn, after that it's still good though, just not quite as insane.

The slowest we have is 6 inch movement. The decurion adds 2d6 before the game.
Right now it looks like pregame move is a move, so would be affected by the talisman. So let's go with an average 6 inch for the 2d6 which is a reasonable expectation imho.
That's then 9 inch pregame plus another 9 inch in your first turn move. And since everything get's to re-roll charge ranges it should be possible to average an 8.
Which gives a charge distance of 11, which, added to the 18 inch you just moved, makes for a 29 inch radius viable charge on our slowest units. Of course, only in a WE detachment.

In a CAD you're looking at an 24-26 inch charge even on 12 inch movement. Mind you that's any turn, not just turn 1. Cutting a bit close for Turn 1 charges, but possible.
Ideally, you put it in a unit of 3ish maelstrom juggerlords, but that's not exactly viable.

I'm going to put it in a unit of 15 or so maelstrom zerkers because it gives me a reason to use my forgeworld zerkers.
They add an extra 3 inch the 29 making it a 32 average charge and if I can snag the warlord trait to charge in the enemy turn I might be able to put that free combat phase to good use.
Otherwise I'd say, put it in your deathstar, whatever that is or a unit of multicharging gorepack hounds or some auxilary spawn to eat overwatch.

With the rerolling charges and +1 cover during night fighting rules not applying to a CAD, I feel the NL rules are just bad and conflicting. I figure there are only two ways to run this:

1. CAD + Raptor Talon core, in which case the +1 cover first turn does nothing because your formation is deepstriking, and the guaranteed night fighting does nothing because all of your remaining guys on the board have stealth anyways.

2. Raptor Talon + Chaos Warband in which case you are not taking advantage of the Raptor Talon core choice. You would have to take a huge point sink with 3 HQ choices just to get a Daemon Prince, which I think utilizes the NL wargear and rules by far the best and gives you a hammer of a unit. You are also missing out on Raptor Troops and are forced to take CSM (as well as an Elite unit) that cost nearly 300 points and are slow in a legion built on speed. You also can't take only a single Heldrake which is yet another massive 340 point sink. There is also no way to fit in any tanks because of the restrictions.

Fear shouldve been something with a different name like Raptor Terror that works on all units in the game, and +1 cover save during night fighting should've been baseline. There are way too many required godawful formations including horrible HQ choice point sinks.

The way formations work is just silly. They just limit any creativity. It should always be a CAD, and if you bring X, Y and Z units from formation A inside of the CAD, those units get the formation rules. Instead youre forced to run these generic predetermined armies.

Why do you want a CAD? Because if it's to get a daemon prince you can take as many as you want in the command formation if this is following the black crusade detachment.

With as little as a raptor talon core and 1 spawn auxiliary. Tanks are available in the fist of the gods, though they come with a warpsmith tax.
Vindicators and preds still come in squadrons though, so it could be worse.
Or take a prince in the cad and some cultists to unlock vehicles. The cultists aren't a bad tax to pay and they don't have stealth because they don't have VotLW so they still benefit from nightfighting. That would also allow a single heldrake. Those never benefit from nightfighting anyway since they can't start the game on the board...well, unless you're playing black legion.

I am very interested in making an Emperor's Children army. In regards to the Kakophoni, is the +1S worth it to run 6 Noise Marine squads? It would allow them to in a pinch threaten vehicles with the blastmaster, and also improve their odds with pinning shenanigans, seeing as how that can help with that first round of combat. Split fire would allow one ten man squad to lock down 2 different infantry units. Any thoughts on MSU kakophoni vs. Less noise marine squads with more bodies and upgrades? Is it a good idea to try to combo the kakophoni with another formation to bring the combat while the noise marines bring the noise?

The +1S makes Blasters much better but you still have the issue of ever shooting them at max range. For a unit that likes to move and maybe even assault, theyve got equipment that encourages camping.

All I know is that this supplement will make Chaos Marine Squads playable. About damn time!

What I meant was creating an orchestra. The blastmaster would be the percussion pounding from the rear, and the rest of orchestra would bring I5 close combat weapons for 3 attacks on the charge, no overwatch or disordered charges to fear! Throw in a sorcerer or two as the composer, as the primaris alone is fairly synergetic and great at directing this coordinated piece.

 Roknar wrote:
Why do you want a CAD? Because if it's to get a daemon prince you can take as many as you want in the command formation if this is following the black crusade detachment.

With as little as a raptor talon core and 1 spawn auxiliary. Tanks are available in the fist of the gods, though they come with a warpsmith tax.
Vindicators and preds still come in squadrons though, so it could be worse.
Or take a prince in the cad and some cultists to unlock vehicles. The cultists aren't a bad tax to pay and they don't have stealth because they don't have VotLW so they still benefit from nightfighting. That would also allow a single heldrake. Those never benefit from nightfighting anyway since they can't start the game on the board...well, unless you're playing black legion.

I'm fairly certain it is only Deepstriking units that can come in T1, so no dragons.

Hmm, I was sure they had deepstrike. Guess they won't be arriving T1 then.

By god, my Emperors children got a buff, definatly running my raptor talon with a 10 man squad with an icon for that 4+ FNP, run my warlord in there and hope for a 3+ fnp. That and combat drugs and thats some necron level of gak there. That in tandum with the shreikwave gun makes an EC raptor talon crazy!

Also love the noise marines kakophani formation, 6 man noise marine squads with splitfire and +1 strength and shred make them pretty crazy. Ugh Im so excited!

I'm trying to think about how to run the Kakophoni. 5-6 man squads in rhinos and with some form of sonic weaponry comes to mind. Have you any experience running noise marines? Are blast masters worth the 30 points? Up to 2 split fire shred s9 ap3 blast templates with ignores cover and pinning sounds pretty awesome. Especially when it's on 10 3+ with a 4+ FNP. Factor in that need to have 6 squads of noise marines, a Slaanesh marked lord or Lucious, and an aux formation sounds really really limiting and makes me think that sticking to small squads with sonic blasters would allow you a bit more flexibility in what to add to the list, whilst still bringing the noise in the form of 8-10 s5 ignores cover shred shots if they move, or 12-15 shots if they stand still with 24 inches range! They definitely need to be able to get to where you want em quick to bring the noise. A steed of slaanesh on that lord you have to bring along anyways seems like it can be a bit trolly if thrown on to a death star of S5 ignores cover shred shots, what with the whole outflank/acute senses and all. Especially when you put on that blob an Icon of Excess. Any turn now prepare to eat 38 s5 ignores cover shred shots, then the turn after that prepare for 57 s5 shots! might be worth it at that point to put a blast master or 2 in there so you got something worth shooting at something else

macluvin wrote:
I'm trying to think about how to run the Kakophoni. 5-6 man squads in rhinos and with some form of sonic weaponry comes to mind. Have you any experience running noise marines?

Loads, the sonic blasters are reasonably cheap, however Ive always been skeptical of using rhino's and sonic weapons, due to the blasters being salvo if they move their range becomes 12 inches and only fires 2 shots, as well as blastmasters not being able to fire.

With the new formations I suggest if your going to put them in a rhino, take sonic blasters and units of 6, the +1 strength ignore cover is incredible for the extra 3 points. Also take the extra CC weapons for 1 extra point per model. If you move out of the vehicle next turn your shooting 3 shots per model which is great!

If your taking blastmasters every turn of shooting you lose make it less worth its points, with 48 inches just sit it on an high area and blast whatever you can see. Use the splitfire to shoot anything in range of the unit.

I'm pretty happy with what i've heard so far. People wanted legions, well. They got them! Not that the result is going to be ott good but i do see regular marines getting used with some decent effect!

Noize marines look tasty, though sonic blasters are still salvo, so i'm not really sure they're gona be very effective without either infiltrate or relentless. Don't know if they can get it. Combat drugs are a fun opportunity, really. So, a bit contradicting. On one hand, you gain great sonic buffs for s5 and shred 3-shot bolters. But they're salvo, so you can't really shoot them for at least a turn. On the other hand, you gain combat drugs and an attack before death. So, maybe it's a chance to split forces like 50-50? 3 squads with sonic weapons and blastmasters camping backlines and 3 squads with syrens (do they also get +1 str?) and ccw roll forward in rhinos to be a general fearless 6+++ super flamer annoyance.

Oh, night lords - my favorite legion. Stealth is cool. Raptors as troops...well, with raptor talon it's ok. But fear is pretty useless vs anything other than orks. And i'm the only ork player around, so...other formations need to be seen. They're gona go to basically shrowded 1-st turn. But once again, no ds mitigation whatsoever. Don't think it's gona work all that great.

Alpha legion. Super trolls. I can see them being good in a scoring game. Not gsc good but still. The hit and run relic has a potential of being fun. Especially good as min allies for competitive play as non-marked units don't suit to well for deathstars. The army as i see it is a bunch of chosen with some special weapons and a hell ton of zealot cultists. All infiltrating. And yep, cultists return on 4+. So, there's no reason to not take a bunch of min squads with flamers. Chosen could do their plazma/melta work. And a semi-deathstar with hit and run relic. Probably, with allies. Just a CAD with nurgle spawns and a lord/sorc would suffice.

Nurgle is king as usual.

World eaters have potential. And yep, you're gona get 15 ppm zerkers with ws4 out of your regular csm. I've always thought that that's the true price of zerkers. And with all the movement buffs they now get, it's gona work! Hell, if you're not forced to take maelstorm of gore, you can get a non-overpriced melee-ish khornate warband!

Black legion...don't know. Deepstrike again. No scatter mitigation again.

Iron warriors. Solo oblis with 6+++ and tankhunter. Yep, no t5 but still. One of the best 'troops' in the game.

This addition is the best by far, EC and deathguard are definatly coming out on top, fearless nd FNP armywide is amazing, same with the stealth the DG gain.

Reavas wrote:
This addition is the best by far, EC and deathguard are definatly coming out on top, fearless nd FNP armywide is amazing, same with the stealth the DG gain.

Not so sure bout EC unless there's any way of making noize marines relentless.

Emps children do not need to take sonics so for me a couple of squads sat at the back with blastmasters and blasters to provide (in formation)s9&5 respectivly and the rest running about for objective grabing and assaults with there i5 and a doom siren on the sarge. The biggest problem i see with a pure EC list is lack of ranged anti tank.

I mean a s9 ap3 blast template can glance a tank to death. especially when you can theoretically put 12 of them down in a round of shooting =D

macluvin wrote:
I mean a s9 ap3 blast template can glance a tank to death. especially when you can theoretically put 12 of them down in a round of shooting =D

Yeah but is 240 pts for only two blastmasters. To have 12 of them you need to spend 1440 points which is ridiculous

Aw. Well it was a good thought. You can outflank a whole wall of noise with the lord on a mount of slaanesh though. That's gotta be a fun trick to pull on someone

I really like the Alpha legion, Death guard the Emperors children. Runner up award for me are the black legion.

The Legion offers a really cool way to deploy via infiltration and really mess with your opponent. They Death Guard are tanky as balls and the Children have great boosts from the drugs and all the dakka.

Runner up Black Legion have the deep striking funzies, but I am cautious of deep striking as it can be rather dangerous doubly so when you are left bunched up begging to be blast.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

 Latro_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

That's 50 points that can go elsewhere. It goes a long way. You do that twice and you got a Helbrute (though I won't use it). I don't want more Bolters or more bodies. There's already enough with the Rhino and 3-4 bullet catchers.

Also that Heavy support slot is going to the Obliterators. They're stupidly good against anything not S10.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

That's 50 points that can go elsewhere. It goes a long way. You do that twice and you got a Helbrute (though I won't use it). I don't want more Bolters or more bodies. There's already enough with the Rhino and 3-4 bullet catchers.

Also that Heavy support slot is going to the Obliterators. They're stupidly good against anything not S10.

That's 50 points you saved by cutting the squad's survivability in half. Your melta's still have to get in range and a single rhino isn't going to make up the difference.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

That's 50 points that can go elsewhere. It goes a long way. You do that twice and you got a Helbrute (though I won't use it). I don't want more Bolters or more bodies. There's already enough with the Rhino and 3-4 bullet catchers.

Also that Heavy support slot is going to the Obliterators. They're stupidly good against anything not S10.

That's 50 points you saved by cutting the squad's survivability in half. Your melta's still have to get in range and a single rhino isn't going to make up the difference.

Why would I ever use Melta? That's for Raptors and Bikers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

That's 50 points that can go elsewhere. It goes a long way. You do that twice and you got a Helbrute (though I won't use it). I don't want more Bolters or more bodies. There's already enough with the Rhino and 3-4 bullet catchers.

Also that Heavy support slot is going to the Obliterators. They're stupidly good against anything not S10.

That's 50 points you saved by cutting the squad's survivability in half. Your melta's still have to get in range and a single rhino isn't going to make up the difference.

Why would I ever use Melta? That's for Raptors and Bikers.

Does it matter the example? All their special weapons want to get with 12"

I gotta say, I am very excited about this book. I am not a CSM player (Undivided Daemons for me, thanx) but I can see some really great things in this book that take CSMs on par with the Loyalists books. Heck, we might even see a meta shift if someone finds the right combo of good stuff.

I almost expect to see nothing but Death Guard & Emperors Children. Maybe even both together.
Death Guard makes Bikes and Oblits really durable.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be honest I used footslogging oblits most of the time due to no deep strike mitigation and because I wanted to fire their weapons from turn 1.

Poor plague marines, now everyone can do what they can do and they are left with plague knives and plage grenades for essentially 7 points

They can also carry 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad though...

Exactly. Theye spam special weapons better and that's more important.

Well 'ish'
10 Nurgle marines x2 melta are 190pts
5 plague marines x2 melta are 140pts

For 50pts you get twice as many bodies that are just as survivable, keeping those meltas firing.

But wait... havocs...
130pts, 5 nurgle ones as good as PM now with 4 melta

bit more of a choice now.

That's 50 points that can go elsewhere. It goes a long way. You do that twice and you got a Helbrute (though I won't use it). I don't want more Bolters or more bodies. There's already enough with the Rhino and 3-4 bullet catchers.

Also that Heavy support slot is going to the Obliterators. They're stupidly good against anything not S10.

That's 50 points you saved by cutting the squad's survivability in half. Your melta's still have to get in range and a single rhino isn't going to make up the difference.

Why would I ever use Melta? That's for Raptors and Bikers.

Does it matter the example? All their special weapons want to get with 12"

Not entirely, but keep in mind that Plasma Guns affect their maximum threat range and those 50 points are partly a Rhino.

I'm really excited for the black legion. I like the raptor and warp talon models a lot, so the raptors talon got me all hot and bothered, but what it was still missing was reserve manipulation, which the black legion gives it. LOVE

Honestly, if they errata chain axes to use the HH statline, berserkers will do murder. And if the World Eaters Butcher horde is anything like Khârn's, good grief will they put out the hurt. And Juggerlord is getting a new load out for me. Bloodfeeder aND a bolt pistol. Join a unit of bikes with Fearless, FC, rage, counter attack, and charge-in-opponents-turn? If you have the points throw in a second lord with the talisman and you have one heck of a melee unit.

Why would you choose bloodfeeder over the axe of blind fury though? Both essentially add +1d6 and blood feeder changes your base 3 attacks to 1d6, reduces your strength by 1 and hits you on every roll of a 1 instead of once. AoBF only costs 5 points more and is more reliable. Of course, you could take two lords and have both.

Yeah, a Deathstar of a bunch of Juggerlords from this supplement and Daemonkin sounds almost like Super Friends levels of fun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, a Deathstar of a bunch of Juggerlords from this supplement and Daemonkin sounds almost like Super Friends levels of fun.

 Roknar wrote:
Why would you choose bloodfeeder over the axe of blind fury though? Both essentially add +1d6 and blood feeder changes your base 3 attacks to 1d6, reduces your strength by 1 and hits you on every roll of a 1 instead of once. AoBF only costs 5 points more and is more reliable. Of course, you could take two lords and have both.

What's the wording on Bloodfeeder? The old Bloodfeeder (4th Ed. codex) didn't replace your attacks with 2D6, it added 2D6.

I asked VeteranNoob to confirm that and he said it's indeed a flat 2d6 but bonus attacks seem to be added nevertheless.

So it is putting out considerably more attacks at the exchange of not being S6/7 on the charge.

That's pretty amazing.

So, it's 3d6 attacks as it's also a daemon weapon? Taking into consideration, you also get free hatred vs 90% armies in the game, it's an average of 12-13 attacks on the charge. Or 8-9 if 2d6. Quite random though. I'd rather take the movement artifact.

 koooaei wrote:
So, it's 3d6 attacks as it's also a daemon weapon?

I think it's basically +2D6 instead of +1D6, not +2D6 ontop of the +1D6 for being a daemon weapon.

Basically they brought back the 4th Ed Bloodfeeder.

So, how too use Raptors in a WE army.

Use them (5?8?10?) starting on the board for a good chance of a T1 Assault (12"+2d6") as part of the Warband (with obsec!), or use them in the raptor talon for hopefully t2 deepstrike assault (although you need reserve and scatter roll luck and need to take a lord extra)

What about Warp Talons? They still seem pretty expensive for such a fragile unit. In a big blob with the talisman and lords they would be really killy, but if you dont get T1 the enemy will decimatze a 400+ Unit pretty fast...

oh god, after almost a decade and a half my Death Guard are finally a viable full army! and such choices we have now...

Purge detachment with Combiflamer terminators for Horde killin'

Obscenely durable Obliterators and (GASP) Mutilators that can survive a footslog

Plague Marines with an aura of debuff

Cloud of Flies! How cool is that??? our major weakness was getting outranged, and now we have heavy weapons AND a strong defence against gunlines

Speaking of Heavy Weapons: Relentless Havocs!

that's just the obvious ones, any more obscure combos people can think up?


.....squee

One thing that is worrying me is are voTLW rules right in these leaks.

If you read the WoM entry Tzeetch marked votlw units are no where near as good as the leaked stuff. No fearless, only get a better Inv if a blessing is cast etc...

But we're lead to believe nugle you get blanket fnp, fearless and khorne furious charge and fearless...

just worried

Its not a leak, its a review of a official review copy from gw

Is there any advantage of using the new WE rules instead of KDK?

I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So it is putting out considerably more attacks at the exchange of not being S6/7 on the charge.

That's pretty amazing.

AoBF on a lord is 3 attacks base +1 for two weapons +1 from the juggernaught + 2 from rage +1d6
Bloodfeeder is 2d6 flat but you can break it down like this for comparison:
1d6 +1 for two weapons +1 from the juggernaught + 2 from rage +1d6
So the only difference is the initial d6. 3 guaranteed vs 1-6. So on average they will have roughly the same amount of attacks.

Except blood feeder has lower strength and with that many attacks you risk rolling a few 1s with only a 50% chance of saving those.
Occasionally getting more attacks isn't much of an advantage given the disadvantages imho.
That said, if you can somehow get access to re-rolls, blood feeder does become better, since you're not likely to miss at that point while not risking to become WS1.
But on their own, AoBF is better imho. Even on a daemon prince, since the axe gives them rage and they already have 5 attacks base, so bloodfeeder only has downsides except for not lowering WS.

It might be an idea for WE to add an unmarked CS divination sorcerer just for prescience. Juggerfriends and misfortune+prescience would pack quite a punch. Now if only you could add the rage relic on top of that for the sorc.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that hehe

 Darkseid wrote:
Is there any advantage of using the new WE rules instead of KDK?

Well the WE stuff lends well to actually making the CSM side of khorne better, KDK is more of a Khorne daemon++ book.

saying that nothing stopping you mix-mashing them.

Take a WE Malestrom of gore with your KDK primary, put a couple of heralds in there and they'll still generate blood tithe. Somwhat the best of both worlds

 Latro_ wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that heh

Unless I misread something, the 2+ armour improves cover by 1 so a Prince will have Jink, stealth and +1 cover no matter what. The problem is getting a prince into the list since you will likely be forced to take 2 other HQs for the Murder Talon formation.

So looking at builds with these rules.....are Iron Hands sneaky good from a power standpoint?

With the decurian you are looking at a standard 13 point csm marine that has:
1. Stubborn in the open, fearless in a fortification.
2. 6+ fnp
3. Leadership 9-10
4. Obsec

The termies are even better. All of the above, 2+/5++, and a combi melta and power weapon for.......36 points.

Add in the super oblits in the formation with a ML3 psyker rolling technomancy......that is a pretty sick army overall, all the flexability of gladius with more rules special rules, cheaper units, but less free transports.

Heck, leaving out the.oblits may even be better, just msu and melta up with those super cheap csm squads and go hog wild. Sure your kill point games will be tough, but this far outweighs that imo.

Three termies squads, ml3 bike sorceror, lord in termie armor, bike squad, helbrute, six csm squads with rhinos and melta, and a squad of spawn for the sorceror is 1850. Thats 19 obsec units that are all a good mix of durable and hard to move off objectives.

 Night Lords wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that heh

Unless I misread something, the 2+ armour improves cover by 1 so a Prince will have Jink, stealth and +1 cover no matter what. The problem is getting a prince into the list since you will likely be forced to take 2 other HQs for the Murder Talon formation.

You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've never fought against a superfriends list. Could somebody give me an example of one and why it works?
Just curious if it possible to have something similar now with the legions, not necessarily a copy.

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

If you take a CAD, you dont get +1 cover and reroll charges, which are the biggest benefits of NL. Another formation requires another HQ.

I was looking at options to take a group of juggerlords. Not too concerned about viability just yet.
Not quite sure how to go about this. A WE decurion could have up to 5 lords in command formations.
That would be the easiest by far to get a lot of them, but you would need a maelstrom or warband first. which come with roughly 400 points of troops.
You get the armywide 2d6 move which is good but 400 points is worth 4 cads in cultists. that would be the same amount of hqs, but waaaaay more bodies.
Not to mention obsec and it would also allow for mixed legions.

The idea is to form a multi character unit though, so the talisman could work fine without the WE decurion.
So I looked into other legions to see if there was some decent combo there maybe.

Black Legion lords could bring a large blast with d3 penetrating hits. Might be useful, but beasts aren't relentless so meh.
The hand of darkness is better now that it comes with hatred on the lord carrying it. Between all the high strength attacks your likely to have though it doesn't do enough.

WB offer nothing except maybe the baleful iron since you want to charge rather than waste rage. Although it does give the option to summon daemons with relative ease, which helps pad out the (likely) low number of units.
NL can't take juggernaughts, but if you were to switch to bikes, the stealth would spread to give everybody a 3+ jink.
They also have a 2+ armor which would give that guy a 2+/2+ jink to tank for the unit. The talons of night are little bit expensive but let you turn any melee into a daemon weapon.
Only on the charge, but hey. Would be nice on an unmarked sorcerer to make a pseudo seers bane. roll on biomancy with a force maul and wreck face with iron arm, besides, endurance would help, as would leech given the 3-4 wounds on the lords.

AL mind veil would prevent anybody from tarpitting the unit, assuming the 3d6 is optional at least. That would be worth a lot too. It would allow the unit to charge any nearby unit to hide from being shot and least some of the cultists would be infiltrating. Chosen might be interesting too for that CAD, points allowed.
Daemonkin has more punchy stuff, but I fear you'd be severely lacking in blood tithes plus they wouldn't apply to the unit anyway.

Some interesting options, but I think as far as lords are concerned, the WE decurion would be better, with maybe a gorefather prince.
Not sure about adding a cabal. Sinistrum is decent but with 3+ saves all around it's just ok. Heretech would add ranged haywire and make them T6, not bad.
Ectomancy is meh and geomortis has ley leech, but that's pretty good with 4 wound characters.
Torturer of worlds could be good to catch fast units since they can't run. It would also help to prevent counter charges. The rest doesn't do much for this.

Endurance would be massively useful for the eternal warrior, even more so than the fnp. But instead of a cabal, a CAD of CS with prescience would hurt a lot depending on how many WE relics you bring and you'd still have 2 sorcerers to roll on biomancy.

Unfortunately there is no character that could keep up with this unit for a decent warlord trait. Not sure about FW though.

 Night Lords wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

If you take a CAD, you dont get +1 cover and reroll charges, which are the biggest benefits of NL. Another formation requires another HQ.

No, they really aren't. And you take a daemon prince for your command slot (you still need one of those). Seriously, you seem to just want to complain for the sake of it without really thinking about it. This is a tactica thread not a complaining thread.

It would be nice if we had a few generic unit formations without having to add HQs to everything. You could be worse off though, Black Legion and WE suffer strongly from not taking a decurion. WE because we still can't assault worth a damn and BL because without the decurion they have...hatred. Hatred is nice and all, but compared to all fearless, relentless fnp, furious charge etc...it's really nothing.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


No, they really aren't. And you take a daemon prince for your command slot (you still need one of those). Seriously, you seem to just want to complain for the sake of it without really thinking about it. This is a tactica thread not a complaining thread.

Without even thinking about it? Uhh, I think Ive made the only post related to NL with an actual analysis and full balanced army in mind. "Take a CAD" and "Take another aux formation" are not contributions and not resolving any issues. I mean, if you dont think 2+ cover saves guaranteed on turn 1 are the best rules NL have, I don't know what to say.

There should be a fight club thread where you can settle these arguments via a proxy wh40k fight using a program that lets you simulate a wh40k game. Then you cant ever share your findings about it because 1st rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club. All in all though i am totally building an iron warriors army with my burning of prospero marines dakka everywhere >=D
I like the tank hunters and ability to spam obliterators. If obliterators are your tax unit i think you got the best CAD ever.

So, is the the new WE Relic and Movement options finally a way of making the dimensional key reliably work?

Im thinking of putting the key on a chaos lord and and put him on a fast unit (bikers perhaps) with another lord with the +3" Movement Talisman.
I think this unit could get a very reliably first turn charge of (2d6+3 + 12+3 + 2d6+3 charge).

In turn two i could then drop my raptor Talon without scatter. Thinking of 2x Melta Rapors and 1x Flamer Raptors.

You guys think that could work?

I think anything a flamer or two can do the close combat attacks of the raptors can do almost as well. The cool thing is that you get to pick your targets with your raptors though! Probability wise, you will get 7 for each of those 2d6 rolls, but at 6 each, averaged out, i think you will be able to get something. However, if you get crap rolls and you will likely end up with a lord stuck out in the crosshairs of everything that shoots.

I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

super excited about a standard death guard war band with bikes and havocs.

Nightlords's culmative -4 on fear tests looks pretty useful against non marine armies.

word bearers is a shame that their 'troops' slot is just possessed - Games workshop is clearly still trying to push them despite everything. Just give them an extra wound!!

Overall so happy with the supplement!

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

But what if you use the negative leadership with pinning?

macluvin wrote:
But what if you use the negative leadership with pinning?

Its only for Fear tests to my understanding

 koooaei wrote:

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

Well with -4ld even Necrons fail fear checks. Tau could also be mentioned, but once they are in CC it's over for them anyway. Eldar of all kinds also aren't fearless I guess.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

Well with -4ld even Necrons fail fear checks. Tau could also be mentioned, but once they are in CC it's over for them anyway. Eldar of all kinds also aren't fearless I guess.

I'm taking into consideration the units on which fear would have some significant effect. Mostly melee units. Tau don't care about fear tests. If you catch them in melee, they're in trouble allready. Necrons - yes, i missed them. Would matter vs warriors and probably even flayed ones. But wraiths are fearless. Don't remember about lychguards and praetorians. As for melee eldar. Well, to be honest, i can't remember facing anything melee oriented other than a wraithknigh or council. Council can be hurt by it if they don't get the fearless psy power.

 koooaei wrote:

I'm taking into consideration the units on which fear would have some significant effect. Mostly melee units. Tau don't care about fear tests. If you catch them in melee, they're in trouble allready. Necrons - yes, i missed them. Would matter vs warriors and probably even flayed ones. But wraiths are fearless. Don't remember about lychguards and praetorians. As for melee eldar. Well, to be honest, i can't remember facing anything melee oriented other than a wraithknigh or council. Council can be hurt by it if they don't get the fearless psy power.

<-----

stormcraft wrote:
So, is the the new WE Relic and Movement options finally a way of making the dimensional key reliably work?

Im thinking of putting the key on a chaos lord and and put him on a fast unit (bikers perhaps) with another lord with the +3" Movement Talisman.
I think this unit could get a very reliably first turn charge of (2d6+3 + 12+3 + 2d6+3 charge).

In turn two i could then drop my raptor Talon without scatter. Thinking of 2x Melta Rapors and 1x Flamer Raptors.

You guys think that could work?

Black Legion have a close to 100% chance to activate the key turn one. All you need is a raptor talon in their decurion.
That lord will deepstrike turn 1 as long as he is your warlord and can assault right away. And since you're not using the jump pack in the movement phase he has built in charge re-roll and hatred from being BL. And HoW gives you back the bonus attack you lost....sort of.

Only problem I see is that while this activates the key, the rest of your army can also deepstrike on turn 1. So while the key can activate turn 1, you still have the same problem that most of your stuff has arrived before the key activates.
Unless you wait ill turn 2.

That BL Lord can still mishap or scatter 12" away from your charge target.

But, fortunately for me I want to play pure World Eaters so Deepstriking T1 isnt a option for me anyway.

Back it up with IW oblitorators?
I just love the CAD of just oblits and maybe a sorcerer, deep striking in with obsec and tank Hunter and fnp. Bargain.

Well I did say, close to 100%. You can charge literally any non vehicle unit that you can wound. You're only looking to kill one guy in melee. Mishapping 12 inch is rare and even then you 're still technically in charge range.

A WE decurion also has a really good shot at activating it turn one. Though they can't choose their targets quite as well as BL. Outside of a decurion it's a bit risky, but then again, the rewards go up. All of our forge world flyers would love that, especially a fire raptor.

Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

So it's not just for thousand sons? Should I pick it up for my emperor's children warband?

 Lamoura wrote:
So it's not just for thousand sons? Should I pick it up for my emperor's children warband?

I think you're in the wrong thread lol, but yes. Any self respecting CSM player should get the Traitor Legions supplement.

Except dedicated Crimson Slaughterer players.They don't know a long war when they see one.

 Night Lords wrote:
With the rerolling charges and +1 cover during night fighting rules not applying to a CAD, I feel the NL rules are just bad and conflicting. I figure there are only two ways to run this:

1. CAD + Raptor Talon core, in which case the +1 cover first turn does nothing because your formation is deepstriking, and the guaranteed night fighting does nothing because all of your remaining guys on the board have stealth anyways.

2. Raptor Talon + Chaos Warband in which case you are not taking advantage of the Raptor Talon core choice. You would have to take a huge point sink with 3 HQ choices just to get a Daemon Prince, which I think utilizes the NL wargear and rules by far the best and gives you a hammer of a unit. You are also missing out on Raptor Troops and are forced to take CSM (as well as an Elite unit) that cost nearly 300 points and are slow in a legion built on speed. You also can't take only a single Heldrake which is yet another massive 340 point sink. There is also no way to fit in any tanks because of the restrictions.

Fear shouldve been something with a different name like Raptor Terror that works on all units in the game, and +1 cover save during night fighting should've been baseline. There are way too many required godawful formations including horrible HQ choice point sinks.

The way formations work is just silly. They just limit any creativity. It should always be a CAD, and if you bring X, Y and Z units from formation A inside of the CAD, those units get the formation rules. Instead youre forced to run these generic predetermined armies.

I think you're misinterpreting the rules when it comes to CAD and Warband, the restrictions read as "Any Detachment with the Chaos Space Marines Faction can be from one of the Nine traitor Legions. A Night Lords Detachment RETAINS the Chaos Space Marine Faction and is treated in all ways as a Chaos Space Marine Detachment." with that in mind that would mean Chaos Warbandand CAD would still be able to Utilize the Benefits from Legion Rules. So Raptor Troops instead of regular CSM still applies with Chaos Warbands.

You only need 1 Core and 1 Auxillary to field a Murder Talon detachment, it has the choice to include 4 Command choices plus any number of Core and Aux. So i think there is plenty of room to field tanks with the Fist of the Gods Formation.

 Roknar wrote:


Black Legion have a close to 100% chance to activate the key turn one.

You severely overestimate the non-scatter-reduced deepstrike. It's a good 50% to not get what you want. If you're indeed aiming for a charge.

Currently I'm thinking for NL I'm going to go with a Raptor Talon Core with some Turkey formations and a Renegade knight detachment. If I have points spare I would go to minimum CAD to utilize Raptor Troops.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I've tried heavy deepstrike csm lists - lots of solo mutilators and oblits. And i must say that even with one model and even with just a d6 scatter half the time - instead of 2d6 - due to daemon allies with banners, it was too unreliable to be good. And i tried it like 5-6 times. It's kinda ok when it works but it doesn't 50% of the time and you still have to rely on magic and spawn deathstars.

I'm not seeing full ds csm as a good tactic all in all. Maybe if csm got some sort of locator beacons.

There's a 33 % chance to not scatter at all, and then on average the scatter will be lower than the charge range due to re-rolls.
It's far from perfect but you have a decent shot at making it. Plus there is a 50 ish% chance to scatter towards them rather than away, which is good unless you land on top. Although scattering towards a different unit would be just fine for this. And you're coming down turn 1 rather than having to wait until turn 2, so even if you do fail you could see it as a free attempt to deepstrike.
It's not perfect but I think it's worth taking the odds.

I'm telling from my own gaming experience. I'd not expect the success rate to be higher than 50% for such risky deepstrikes. I've run termicide for quite some time. I've tried solo muties and oblis. What my experience tells me is to not rely on deepstrike as a primary tactic unless you have good ds mitigation - like sm pods, no scatter or at very least re-rolls for ds scatter or d6 less inces of scatter.

Note that ds tends to work better the fewer models and impass there are on the table. We tend to play on relatively dense terrain with impass and 1850 games with a bunch of models rolling around.

Mishaps are a different story. I'm just saying the scatter should work out more often than not for the talon lord. If you mishap, you're not going to get a chance to charge regardlesss of the result.
The prize is a accurate deepstriking across the board and charges from deepstrike the turn after, for at least 6 units and no need for transports.

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Thanks, but I should warn you to read my posts with the knowledge that I'm not a competitive player. I have a very different perspective on the game compared to say Slayer-Fan123.
Not saying I dismiss the competitive angle, but I have different standards.

With that out of the way, even in a raptor talon I'd take 1 unit of warp talons at most. They have a few issues apart from costing too much and the talon doesn't fix them. You're probably better of just giving a raptor champion a powersword or so. You really want to keep things cheap with this kind of army. The Warlord could mishap or scatter really far and then you don't really want to risk 160pts doing nothing.
Besides, no scatter raptors in a talon are awesome.

Reserves are always on a 3+ until the 4th turn where they just come automatically. There is the possibility to improve the reserve roll, but I'm still trying to find out if BL could take the fortification formation from IW. that would make it much easier and cheaper than getting another CAD, still, might be worthwhile since you plan on arrriving turn 2 anyway. It wouldn't have any effect in the first turn I think, depends on how the speartip rule is worded.
If it was the case though, it might be worth just taking two raptor talons and forgetting about the key

Finally, lost and the damned is an Aux choice for BL so no dice there.

Has anyone with better understanding of rules and interactions weighed in on the Alpha Legion Detachment bonus?

1.) It provides the cultists with the ability to on a 4+ roll, join ongoing reserves.
2.) Lost and the Damned formation gives the exact same benefit, but from a different source.

Do these stack? Would you get two 4+ chances? Could you get 2 units from 1? Etc.

Not yet, we might have to wait until we have the book in hands.

 Roknar wrote:
Not yet, we might have to wait until we have the book in hands.

Or failing that, the day 1 FAQ.

I hope it doubles, or at least gives a re-roll.

I think Alpha's can be set up to almost never give up a warlord point.

Also, up the cultists to around the 130 mark, and you can auto-win against null deployed drop pods.

Really want to run WB for fluff and aesthetic reasons.

Its hard to escape the fact you are doubling down on bad options though.

Is there anyway to get away from Possessed being slightly cheaper Wulfen with weaker stats, no upgrades and hence significantly worse? Has anyone run the Favoured of Chaos formation with any success?

 Roknar wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Thanks, but I should warn you to read my posts with the knowledge that I'm not a competitive player. I have a very different perspective on the game compared to say Slayer-Fan123.
Not saying I dismiss the competitive angle, but I have different standards.

With that out of the way, even in a raptor talon I'd take 1 unit of warp talons at most. They have a few issues apart from costing too much and the talon doesn't fix them. You're probably better of just giving a raptor champion a powersword or so. You really want to keep things cheap with this kind of army. The Warlord could mishap or scatter really far and then you don't really want to risk 160pts doing nothing.
Besides, no scatter raptors in a talon are awesome.

Reserves are always on a 3+ until the 4th turn where they just come automatically. There is the possibility to improve the reserve roll, but I'm still trying to find out if BL could take the fortification formation from IW. that would make it much easier and cheaper than getting another CAD, still, might be worthwhile since you plan on arrriving turn 2 anyway. It wouldn't have any effect in the first turn I think, depends on how the speartip rule is worded.
If it was the case though, it might be worth just taking two raptor talons and forgetting about the key

Finally, lost and the damned is an Aux choice for BL so no dice there.

Thank you for the response homie. I'm not a competitive player really either, or at least tournament level hyper competitive, i enjoy being able to try different things out that might not be min/maxed or absolutely optimized, but are plain fun. Different strokes for different folks.

That's about what i was thinking with raptors, if you could plonk down more cheap squads there's a better chance of getting a good position in range of key units. I think i need to go pick up 4 boxes now.

As you said I think earlier in the thread the dimensional key could work, but only for what comes in after the warlord has already done his thing. Might be worth it for stragglers who don't pass their special first turn 3+ roll.

I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

What tight restrictions? Most of us go mono anyway and VotLW is free everywhere for all intents and purposes.

Well, it seemed that every traitor legion had to either take everything with a mark, or nothing with a mark, and from what I understand, marks are great to take on some units, but not on everything.

For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

And not having that freedom to mix and match, while fluffy, seems a trifle harsh.

With all the free crap imperials get in certain formations (demi company, war convocation), I'm almost surprised the chapters dedicated to a specific god wouldn't just get the appropriate mark for free. But that might be a bit much.

Or would it? I honestly am not certain, but hell, when a war convocation gets to bring a 3K list to a 2K game, how much worse would free marks be?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

Well if you compare anything against loyalists everything looks awful. But having not played chaos in the past but being a huge fan of chaos lore for a decade, this book gave me the final push to actually do it. Because while you're right, chaos needs a new dex badly, i think people are just happy to have something, and more specifically something that feels 'chaosy' as in able to represent peoples favorite flavors unlike the prior book that stripped all character from chaos.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

In what manner? Marks aren't THAT expensive like you're making them out to be.

Black Legion and Word Bearers can still mix marks as needed. And you can still mix in individual formations from different legions if you want want the associated legion benefits.

Also ,on that note, it might be an idea to take a TAF from deathguard or EC with the Black Legion built around the key.
Shriekwave or bolts of vexation would both be good, not mention both DG and EC make the other termies fearless.
WE might not be bad either considering you run out of combi weapons after shooting and you have counter attack in case you get charged.

Relentless Plague Marines (and CSM/Havocs) are amazing.

Now, i would almost always field Plasma guns and double tap, letting the Blight Grenades (and overwatch) take some bite out of the enemy counter charge next turn, but now having the option to charge in afterwards is great!

I like the idea of Alpha Legion outflanking a blob of cultists with a mindveil IC attached. 35 cultists is only 150 points, they give the HQ infiltrate, the HQ gives them fearless or a better leadership, and mindveil gives them a decent threat radius the following turn (and the option to leave combat). Very fluffy.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Relentless Plague Marines (and CSM/Havocs) are amazing.

Now, i would almost always field Plasma guns and double tap, letting the Blight Grenades (and overwatch) take some bite out of the enemy counter charge next turn, but now having the option to charge in afterwards is great!

Even 2 havocs with lascannons or other heavy weapons in a rhino might be fun.

155pts and you have a mobile 2 lascannon platform that even when it blows up you have 5 t5 fnp fearless guys that can keep firing even on the turn after it gets popped! And to top it off if it takes the same format as the TH formation they will be obsec to boot!
good times

Just looked at what it would cost for that null deployment list.
All BL, 1 hounds of abaddon, 1 TAF, 1 Raptor talon, gave termis plasma and a brand (on a lvl 3 sorc) everything else has melta, nothing else and all min sized. Only lightning claws on the lords.

That's 1 unit of csm and a claw, 1 of zerkers, 4 units of raptors, 3 termicides and already at about 1,5 k points. Quite a sting if enough units make it out of reserve turn 2, but after that it's mostly glass and not a whole lot of cannon. Not sure 300ish points is enough to fix that. Especially with no CAD and null deployment.

So I saw the post suggesting a Night Lord Khorne DP and Tzeentch DP with their Relics. Night Lords aren't allowed to have Marks of Chaos, wouldnt that mean No DP in the Army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is it different because they are "Daemons of"

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
So I saw the post suggesting a Night Lord Khorne DP and Tzeentch DP with their Relics. Night Lords aren't allowed to have Marks of Chaos, wouldnt that mean No DP in the Army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is it different because they are "Daemons of"

Thats exactly why its different.

Ok, it's been a while since I even looked at the book so I had one of those "What a minute..." moments.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

Well, now that's different. You're adding FNP, Fearless, and Relentless with that mark of nurgle. You also get a reroll 1s to FNP (I believe?) which is an ~8% additional increase in survivability. That makes basic marines good now. That costs 3 points. I don't know why you think that's overboard with upgrades.

Now, you can get 10 basic marines like this (and lose defensive grenades + plague knife) vs 7 plague marines. You also get the option to take a heavy weapon instead of 2 specials. So, it actually does the opposite of what you're saying.

You don't really need cultists (and if you do, just take a standard cad).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I imagine you could do a minimum-strength Speartip+Raptor Talon, and then take a Black Legion CAD with several Obsec units. Alternately, an Iron Warriors CAD to drop some no-scatter Obliterators could be funny.

Has anyone considered running the plague colony? The -1t buff is impressive. The -1 init means you strike the same time as marine equivalents, typhus insta glibs anyone toughness 4 or less. Relentless on plasma gun toting plague marines is very nice. You can get typhus and 7 squads kitted out with rhinos and meltas/plasma guns, a few power weapons and melta bombs. A sprinkling of dirge casters. Less than 1600 points. Everything is pretty potent at range due to special weapon spam and also more than capable in melee.

Don't forget the -1 toughness buff means plague marines reroll to wound vs marine equivalents due to poison.

For an 1850 list this leaves room for a unit of nurgle oblits for typhus to roll with or perhaps a unit of termicide with axes and more combi plasmas and chain fist for good measure. Im leaning towards oblits. Stealth first turn gives you a pretty strong chance of not getting your rhinos picked off.

Having room for a nurgle sorcerer on bike with spawn or bikers would be very nice too. The nurgle discipline isn't THAT bad and adding the -1str Hex to a unit makes them essentially useless vs plague marines in combat

35 plague marines is a lot but I surprisingly can field it, just need a few more rhinos.

Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

So, here's a cunning plan.

Night lords:
Raptor talon with melta. Spawn

World eaters:
warband with a +3" lord and a key lord in command auxillary, 3 min marine units, probably some dirge caster dozer rhinos, termicide, 3 biker units (probably 5+ strong and probably large squads for lords), havoks or helbrute. As many solo spawns as you can fit.

Night lords grand nightfight to add protection to World eaters. World eaters rush the board for 1-st turn assault with spawns, lords and bikers that have 3+ jinking cover in the open now, score the midfield with rhinos and marines and charge up a dimensional key. Night lords try to arrive scatter-less around the key and add melta + some extra charges to allready worn off world eaters.

What do you think about that? Points are gona be tight - that's for sure. But it's fieldable in a 1850 bracket. Some good board controle. Some decent mid-tier melee that's gona trump anything short of melee-dedicated armies with magic buffs. And yet, it's msu enough to mitigate deathstar opponents with some nice fearless obsec.

I'm personally wondering what the best way to run Iron warriors is going to be. The Obliterator troops are nice but what to do for a HQ? I was thinking that if the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton works on a Daemon Prince that would be pretty nifty sporting 2+ 5++ 6+FNP and IWND (possibly 3+ FNP with the warlord trait?). Heck stick wings on him and he's a flying (better) terminator XD. Its probably not the best or most cost effective but I like it.

The big thing I'm thinking of is what fortifications should we take as part of the detachment? I was thinking wall of martyrs since for now it says (on or in fortifications) and you can't really be on or in Agis defense line (can you?) And the WoM trenches can't be destroyed or maybe even the hemotrope reactors? (Plascannon oblits possibly double tapping with the right warlord trait).

While on the subject of the IW detatchment it says you get to reroll for ordnance and barrage weapons (but there are no barrge weapons available ) is there anything that would be worth taking to maximize the benefit from this?

 koooaei wrote:
So, here's a cunning plan.

Night lords:
Raptor talon with melta. Spawn

World eaters:
warband with a +3" lord and a key lord in command auxillary, 3 min marine units, probably some dirge caster dozer rhinos, termicide, 3 biker units (probably 5+ strong and probably large squads for lords), havoks or helbrute. As many solo spawns as you can fit.

Night lords grand nightfight to add protection to World eaters. World eaters rush the board for 1-st turn assault with spawns, lords and bikers that have 3+ jinking cover in the open now, score the midfield with rhinos and marines and charge up a dimensional key. Night lords try to arrive scatter-less around the key and add melta + some extra charges to allready worn off world eaters.

What do you think about that? Points are gona be tight - that's for sure. But it's fieldable in a 1850 bracket. Some good board controle. Some decent mid-tier melee that's gona trump anything short of melee-dedicated armies with magic buffs. And yet, it's msu enough to mitigate deathstar opponents with some nice fearless obsec.

Dimensional Key doesn't have a limit on scatterless deepstrike.

So, Iron warriors can have easy access to a 2+ re-rollable dp. Not cheap and not extremely choppy but a very neat tool nevertheless! Keep him away from grav though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Dimensional Key doesn't have a limit on scatterless deepstrike.

what do you mean


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:

While on the subject of the IW detatchment it says you get to reroll for ordnance and barrage weapons (but there are no barrge weapons available ) is there anything that would be worth taking to maximize the benefit from this?

Maybe something with fortifications. I don't know, fortifications are not amazing as they're very fragile. Well, fragile is not a 100% right word. They're landraider-ish. They're either immune to everything the opponent fields or explode from a single shot/strike like in my last 2 games. First shot - down goes the plazma obliterator killing half the devastators inside. The game before that - first strike in melee - down goes the imperial bunker killing half the obliterators inside. They are indeed more fragile than even vehicles as the building damage table is more punishing all in all and they get destroyed on 6-7 instead of just 7.

So, kinda like with vehicles. The cheaper your fortification is - the better it's gona be. If you get a bunker for 55 pts, it's a nice firepoint and a means of getting comms relay. If you get VSG, it's a nice 100 pt army-wide protector for the whole game. If you get a cool shiny stronghold for a handful of points, it's a prime target for all the melta and lazcannons around.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I'm personally wondering what the best way to run Iron warriors is going to be. The Obliterator troops are nice but what to do for a HQ? I was thinking that if the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton works on a Daemon Prince that would be pretty nifty sporting 2+ 5++ 6+FNP and IWND (possibly 3+ FNP with the warlord trait?). Heck stick wings on him and he's a flying (better) terminator XD. Its probably not the best or most cost effective but I like it.

If you have shooty infantry on a fortification you could take a cheap chaos lord or warpsmith (both BS5) to use one of the turrets and give some CC ability to their unit. Or a sorcerer casting powers. Or a more standard bike lord with one of the relics. I like your daemon prince idea

Do we think the red rain formation bonus from maelstrom of Gore could combo with the mindveil?

Finish a unit off in the movement phase, move 3d6".assault and kill again.

Also, can AL dedicated rhinos infiltrate? Good way of getting dirge casters into position?

Yeah that's exactly why I was looking at the Wall of Martyrs trench lines, they're fortifications that you can be in but battlefield debris so they can't be subjected to the aforementioned brutal damage table. Personally I have access to any fortfication it' just figuring which is going to get me the most bang for my buck. I know that CSM has access to the geomancy copy paste so they COULD possibly get the power to move any fortification around (and personally I think it would be fluffy as hell) but it's not something I can really bank on.

With any luck next codex the god disciplines will be optional unless you're sorc has a mark.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

If you have shooty infantry on a fortification you could take a cheap chaos lord or warpsmith

I'd not call warpsmiths cheap. On the contrary, they're like 1/3 overpriced.

It looks to me that using a normal CAD is better for Word Bearers than running a warband in a black crusade detachment, as the detachment doesn't really add much to it and losing access to FW models seems detrimental

Word bearers are puzzling for me. Their artifacts are meh, summoning on 3+ is still not good enough - you'll peril with sorcs that only have 2 wounds and are in no way cheap. Apostles are stuck footslogging. Yep, the 6" zealot aura is nice and stuff but where to stick apostles? Spawns are allready fearless. Large blobs of cultists? Apostles would just get sniped out. Large blobs of marines? Can't remember the last time it worked. Possessed as troops? Come on, gw, again? Noone wants possessed with this rules.

There's clearly a footslogging horde emphasis here. But it's not gona work as there are no durability or speed buffs and old good helbrute formation does cultist swarms for cheaper. Lost and the damned allready have an apostle with a 6" zealot bauble. I don't know, Word bearers just strike me as the worst of the bunch. Even 1k sons have something going for them.

Gorepack . A maelific sorcerer casting on 3's with spell familiar would be very useful to hounds with cursed earth. Artefact gets you another roll on maelific. Good odds.

Too bad WB don't have access to the crimson slaughter artifact for summoning, that would make spamming sorcs somewhat viable, maby combine it with a rolling heretech for hellforged warpack/fist of the gods.

I actually hope that the leaked rules for WB are fake :/

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Gorepack . A maelific sorcerer casting on 3's with spell familiar would be very useful to hounds with cursed earth. Artefact gets you another roll on maelific. Good odds.

But they only get 3+ for conjurations.

Is it only conjurations? Ok that's a bit naff.


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Only see DPs being of any particular value then.

I am not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but using Oblits as troops for IW is a thing as far as I understand, although you can't get a transport you do get a lot of firepower on the table.

Yep, you could fill your troops with solo oblits in a cad. No marks but they do get ld9, 6++ and tankhunter for free. One of the best min CAD options indeed.

Also, iirc, havoks get tankhunter too. Tankhunter autocannons are gona be amazing vs intended targets. Also, there's no real need limiting yourself to decurion as it would only give stubborn. Which is nice and all but not mandatory. And on the other hand, you could get a bunch of obsec oblits wit htankhunter and 6+++. They'll be afraid of melta but that's what vsg is for. Technically, you could have a pretty neat army of solo oblits, havoks and DP, one of which can be 2+ re-rollable with 6+++ and IWND. What's not to like.

sushi2001 wrote:
I am not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but using Oblits as troops for IW is a thing as far as I understand, although you can't get a transport you do get a lot of firepower on the table.

I like it a lot. I miss the mark of nurgle, for sure. But it's very good.

What character to take with it is the question. Probably a sorcerer? I'm hoping the haywire relic will be worth it .

The haywire relic i'm not sure about. It only works in the enemy's shooting phase and by that time, he could easilly keep out of your 2d6 haywire radius if he's not a pod. Well, on the other hand, it could prove to be a hassle for knights. But if a knight has moved so close to you, he'd probably have trouble with all the tankhunter oblits hulking around - even without this one potential haywire hit.

Now an interesting thing. Bikers might actually choppier than spawns for world eaters. Though, a free 2d6 move is good for everyone. I'm not sure what's going to be better - khornate bikers or spawns. Bikers got a lot of free rules now. And they can still shoot.

Word Bearer Sorcerers can do something that a prince can't. They can be the best generic sorcerer in the game even if only in malefic. They can get an extra roll on table and the warlord trait can make them full on generic lvl 4 psykers. That means that a WB sorc can have 5/6 maelfic powers. And if that's something you are going for, kasyr lutien and summoning on a 3 + means that you can easily cast a 3 WC power on 4 dice. You're still gonna die to perils but you looks like a bad ass while you're at it lol.

Still, you can cast sacrifice reliably even on 1 dice with a lvl 1 sorcerer with spell familiar and tome, that's a ton cheaper than the equivalent prince and the heralds can do the summoning from there. If nothing else, it might take a few dice out of the deny pool.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Has anyone with better understanding of rules and interactions weighed in on the Alpha Legion Detachment bonus?

1.) It provides the cultists with the ability to on a 4+ roll, join ongoing reserves.
2.) Lost and the Damned formation gives the exact same benefit, but from a different source.

Do these stack? Would you get two 4+ chances? Could you get 2 units from 1? Etc.

Very head of the hydra themey: cut off one head (cultist unit) and two more come back (maybe)!

I know some people are lamenting IWs but I think they are probably the best CAD candidate of any of the legions. Not just for obliterator troops but also due to the special rules and make them an easy detachment to take as a solo or secondary force

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

Hmm, yea I would have to agree. Seriously doubt that RAI but so is the rule doing nothing so *shrug*.

As for the black legion key speartip, Instead of a TAF it might be better to take a CAD with two termicides, that frees a few points and gives you at least SOME ObSec. Which can come down on any objective you might need. Loosing the anti interceptor might hurt though. On the plus side it allows for a fire raptor or psychic support. Or maybe a khorne errant knight.
Or on that note, maybe not go for full null deployment after all. Can't help but feel the speartip is kind of wasted though with having to wait until turn 2 for the key and the less deepstrike you bring the less it adds.
At the same time Turn 1 would be great with 2+ reserves, but then you scatter all over the place because the key is pointless and you need a cad which doesn't come in on turn 1.

For WE it's a bit riskier to use the key, but their warband is at least ObSec and you wouldn't be wasting your decurion bonus.

Riskier in sense that they can be killed? Yep, it's true. Khorne ain't about durability.

Well, allying them with night lords makes khornates somewhat more durable due to guaranteed 1-st turn nightfight. 3+ jink bikers, spawns with 4+ covers, 3+ in ruins.

I'll try it out and say how it goes. I'm desperate to make night lords - my favorite legion - work, lol. Even if it takes just a small force. Their thing is fear. But fear is so underwhelming in current meta. I can't remember a game in the last couple years where anybody except my orks failed a fear check and it meant something other than an allready obvious outcome - like in case of one sister vs a bunch of spawns or a couple tau fire warriors vs raptors.

 koooaei wrote:
Riskier in sense that they can be killed? Yep, it's true. Khorne ain't about durability.

Well, allying them with night lords makes khornates somewhat more durable due to guaranteed 1-st turn nightfight. 3+ jink bikers, spawns with 4+ covers, 3+ in ruins.

I'll try it out and say how it goes. I'm desperate to make night lords - my favorite legion - work, lol. Even if it takes just a small force. Their thing is fear. But fear is so underwhelming in current meta. I can't remember a game in the last couple years where anybody except my orks failed a fear check and it meant something other than an allready obvious outcome - like in case of one sister vs a bunch of spawns or a couple tau fire warriors vs raptors.

A bit riskier in that you're more reliant on the opponents deployment and more vulnerable to being seized. Both rely on two rolls of 2d6, charge+ free move or charge + scatter, but scatter can at least be ignored on a hit. And the talon lord can charge anywhere on the board.

Khorne is actually more durable*. At least as long as you take juggernauts. They add +1 wound over taking a bike, and the attack, but yea, then you don't get the 3+ jink. On the other hand they have move through cover and an extra wound, so if you can get them into terrain they have a 3+ cover save too.

*Be fun to see a deathguard lord on palanquin though. T5, fnp and with WT and gift they could end up with a whopping 7 wounds XD, juice up with spells and he could get eternal warrior and iwnd too

I had a few additional random thoughts:

Alpha Legion almost looks like it would do well running mass Bikrs. Take a Warband, minimum troop tax, run 3 or so Bike units, and 4 or so solo Bike Lords, and bum-rush your opponent. Turn 1 Shrouded grants a 2+ Jink, and you can be aggressive spamming Personal Warlord traits aiming for melee shenanigans, knowing anytime your Lord is slain, another Bike Champ can take up the reins.

I imagine that an upcoming FAQ will prohibit mixing Legion tactics in the same unit similar to how mix-and-matching chapters disables all Chapter Tactics, but even without such tactics, you can still ally in some Slaaneshi Bikers for the fun of it, and stick your Warband's Lord with a Mindveil in said unit.

If mixed Legion units become a thing though, DG Bikers would be an even better anvil.

I imagine the Word Bearers detachment is for those that are transitioning from a basic Black Crusade army from Traitor's Hate. Getting a turn of +d6 Warp Charge is a bargain for 15 points, and most of the Warlord table looks pretty handy too. I imagine that you can run your Sorcerer with a Palanquin and have it carried by Cultists as a warshrine of a sort, and 3 of the 6 traits would be very beneficial. +1 ML, buffing others, or shifting Boon results by +-1 are all very attractive propositions. 2 of them are variations of Fearless/Zealot, and one...is a Gift of Mutation.

Still, with Favored Scions and the free Boon each turn, the ability to shift Boon rolls by +-1 can add up quickly, and ramp up the chances of getting some really nice mini-champs or Princes, and the ability to grant Relentless/Fearless/Counterattack/Furious Charge to any nearby friendly unit has its utility too. Furious Charge Spawn sounds like a fun way to smash up a Metal box or two, and then Fearless Cultists are always a fun tarpit.

Overall, I still feel 1k Sons got the short end of the stick yet again.

Well, I would measure the legions on how well they do in a CAD, and DG and EC are waayyy up on that list.
WB are easily last as they get a buff that relies on an apostle still nobody wants to take and their relics are barely ok, to say nothing about posessed. the Crown is nice and the tome, everything is lack lustre. The script is kind of ok if you happen to have an HQ with no artefact left.
1 extra ML is 25 points which gives you 6 WC over the course of the game, this might just give you 1. Or bring daemon allies with brimstone horrors instead.
I don't really care about WT because they're even more random than psychic powers. Half the time I forget I have them.

So basically the only thing WB have going for them is a prince that can summon easier. The weapons are all worse than the black mace which they can still presumably take.
Until they get an update like exalted dark apostles and gal vorbak, they're really not that interesting.

So are we finally able to say CSM have risen above bottom tier? Certainly not Top tier with Eldar, Tau, and Gladius Marines, but I'd personally say CSM are at least on par with non-Gladius Marines.

I would even dare say certain builds might even be better than Necrons (looking at Death Guard bike lists). And the ability to take multiple detachments of varied Legions should make for some interesting lists.

 Galef wrote:
So are we finally able to say CSM have risen above bottom tier? Certainly not Top tier with Eldar, Tau, and Gladius Marines, but I'd personally say CSM are at least on par with non-Gladius Marines.

I would even dare say certain builds might even be better than Necrons (looking at Death Guard bike lists). And the ability to take multiple detachments of varied Legions should make for some interesting lists.

Well this is an odd one because i'd put them even up a little bit more because those of us who'v stayed faithful for years have had to play with subpar stuff so we're ard! not saying we're better players but we'v been in the grinder and now how to get the most out our units than other players imo... all adds up when you get buffs

 Roknar wrote:
Well, I would measure the legions on how well they do in a CAD, and DG and EC are waayyy up on that list.
WB are easily last as they get a buff that relies on an apostle still nobody wants to take and their relics are barely ok, to say nothing about posessed. the Crown is nice and the tome, everything is lack lustre. The script is kind of ok if you happen to have an HQ with no artefact left.
1 extra ML is 25 points which gives you 6 WC over the course of the game, this might just give you 1. Or bring daemon allies with brimstone horrors instead.
I don't really care about WT because they're even more random than psychic powers. Half the time I forget I have them.

So basically the only thing WB have going for them is a prince that can summon easier. The weapons are all worse than the black mace which they can still presumably take.
Until they get an update like exalted dark apostles and gal vorbak, they're really not that interesting.

Considering how CADs are nowadays usually regulated to providing a few obsec cappers in support of a Detachment of Formations, I consider measuring armies CAD-to-CAD to be a bit disingenuous. Saying relics like the Cursed Crozius are also bad is also somewhat iffy since models can only take one relic anyway, and getting an extra roll on Malefic is always nice. There's no reason one can't take both ML 3 and the extra D6 WC, and extra WC lets you front-load your Psychic phase. It's one reason Power Stones were so useful in WHFB; what's the point of generating 6 dice over six turns if you don't stop your foe from killing you on turn 2?

The Apostle is a trap and nobody is denying that, though you do get a few tricks with him; the Zealot Bubble in particular allows you to get de-facto Stealth on your Havocs as an example since they can Go to Ground then become Fearless. If you're feeling cheeky, a Warband champion has 2 boon rolls, pick one, rerollable...so if you really want to fish for a Prince...

...Back to reality, a Palanquin Sorcerer is arguably better than a Prince, due to being cheaper to get ML 3 for. Even with Perils, you get 4 wounds, and Perils costs you one wound at a time max. To actually explode, the odds are...1 in 1 in 72? Plus now that Nurgle gets some really nice powers, including a blessing of +1 Strength/Toughness, which can be reversed as a Malediction, and the ability to heal a model by D3 wounds...and of course he can hide in a unit of choice.

I don't rule out Warlord Traits that often. Alpha Legion has the most potential to do crazy things with their Warlord-jumping, though a lot of that is dependent on your opponent trying to kill said Warlord. Zahndrekh players can attest to how useful swapping traits can be, and you trade reliability (you are getting a reroll, but your opponent has to oblige in killing your Warlord. Bluff him?), for denying Slay the Warlord...tradeoffs.

Nurgle Bikers and Obliterators will be stupid good I can assure you. With large groups you had people comparing Icon MoS and just plain MoN, but now there's not even close to a competition.

Hell, they could be more durable than MoN Spawn for the price.

I love the idea of taking a minimum CAD of Iron Warrirors just to add Obsec Oblits to any list. I may even make some Daemon Oblit conversions to add to my Daemon army.

Here's a link to the spoiled pictures of the supplement. Actual rule wording will help. 20 marine exploding bolts are gone by the looks lol
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/tags/traitor%20legions

One immediate view, as a Night Lords player, is that when Raptors become troops, they also become Obsec. This is huge for a lot of tournament games where my troops haven't been fast enough to contest that one objective on the far side of the table...

Any additional comments I'll save till I have the book in my hands, but I'm extremely excited about the fact my Night Lords are suddenly unique.

Only in a CAD or warband though.

 Roknar wrote:

Also ,on that note, it might be an idea to take a TAF from deathguard or EC with the Black Legion built around the key.
Shriekwave or bolts of vexation would both be good, not mention both DG and EC make the other termies fearless.

My experience with list building in 7th edition is limited.

It sounds like you are saying adding in Emperor's Children as allies to a Black Legion force would extend benefits associated with Emperor's Children to the main force.

Is this correct?

No, but they would still benefit from dimensional key for strategic placement turn two, and the terminators in that formations are all EC/DG, aka those termies are all fearless.
They would be outside of the speartip detachment, but that's fine since you wouldn't expect to bring them before turn 2 anyway.

So what non-vehicle, non-HQ units cannot become troops with the Legion rules? Just bikes?
It seems like the 4 Cult Marines, Oblits, Mulitators, Chosen, Possessed and Raptors all have a Legion that makes them Troops.

-

and havoks, warp talons

Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD
The cranium got a lot better too. It's actually the bearer's shooting phase so you can dictate where it hits.

 Roknar wrote:
Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD

O.o

So, DP with that upgrade and 2+ units of Oblits as Troops? Iron within, Iron without indeed!

Hmm the Talons of the night terror got a lot worse. They're not a melee weapon? Seems to be a slightly better combat familiar? Although it does combo with Infernal claws.
A prince can get their 2+ armour too. That's...brutal. That basically means any NL prince has shrouded.

GAAAADDD the Drakescale Plate is So DUMB


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And not impressed with Blade of the hydra, except on a DP I guess


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Hyrda's teeth compares very favourably to the bolts of extatic vexation

Maybe something along the lines of Black Legion with Raptors Talon and then a small Death Guard Terminator Anihilation Force? Or is that far too big?

 Roknar wrote:
No, but they would still benefit from dimensional key for strategic placement turn two, and the terminators in that formations are all EC/DG, aka those termies are all fearless.
They would be outside of the speartip detachment, but that's fine since you wouldn't expect to bring them before turn 2 anyway.

Yeah, that's just a lot of Terminators. The Speartip detachment already calls for a bunch, especially if you take Abaddon and his upgraded Terminators.

Have been thinking about how to get ECs and Black Legion to play together as nice as possible. The Speartip is great for wiping out HQs and tying up opponents on their half of the table. The Kakophoni is great for tearing up whatever makes it through. Making it all fit in a list is... hard.

So I realized something stupid. This isn't for a serious game but can be funny nonetheless.

Maulerfiends are Daemons, as are Defilers.

A Warpack lets you nominate one vehicle as an Alpha, giving it the (Character) subtype.

One of the Word Bearer Warlord Traits is +1 Mastery Level.

If you're lucky, you could get a Defiler or Maulerfiend that can summon on a 3+, and only Perils on a 6. The other benefits are more situational but there's simply something funny about that.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So I realized something stupid. This isn't for a serious game but can be funny nonetheless.

Maulerfiends are Daemons, as are Defilers.

A Warpack lets you nominate one vehicle as an Alpha, giving it the (Character) subtype.

One of the Word Bearer Warlord Traits is +1 Mastery Level.

If you're lucky, you could get a Defiler or Maulerfiend that can summon on a 3+, and only Perils on a 6. The other benefits are more situational but there's simply something funny about that.

This would actually be really awesome to do! I will try that at least a few games, see if it actually pans out into something usefull

Just re-doing my WE lists and hit on a weird idea

What do you guys think of a lord wiht Tali of burning blood running with a large unit of termies!

hear me out!

Get your formation 2d6 move
Then you are walking 9"
Running d6+3
Charging 2d6+3

Factor in the termies are now fearless, admantium will and furious charge! sprinkle a couple of chainfists in there (4 s9 armourbane!) and i think it might actually work? obviously you taken then in a CWB so they are obsec!

You then have the option to buy a LR transport too which you can palm off to another unit (i know they cant get in in deployment) that LR is also obsec

 Latro_ wrote:
Just re-doing my WE lists and hit on a weird idea

What do you guys think of a lord wiht Tali of burning blood running with a large unit of termies!

hear me out!

Get your formation 2d6 move
Then you are walking 9"
Running d6+3
Charging 2d6+3

Factor in the termies are now fearless, admantium will and furious charge! sprinkle a couple of chainfists in there and i think it might actually work? obviously you taken then in a CWB so they are obsec!

You then have the option to buy a LR transport too which you can palm off to another unit (i know they cant get in in deployment) that LR is also obsec

Might as well keep them in the Land Raider to ensure they make it to their target. After battle is joined across the field they won't need the metal bawks and should be able to move around easier.

yea but i'm thinking a unit of 8-10 deathstar styley, its an average 26" FT charge range!

plus they are so fast it frees up the LR to trasnport more squisy stuff like wannabe berzerkers

I'm seriously considering a Maelstrom of Gore in place of the Warband, mostly because I don't have termies or havocs. MoG is cheaper and does a lot for the Zerkers on top of the other army benefits. It also leaves enough room for a Gorepack to screen for the Zerkers.


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 Latro_ wrote:
yea but i'm thinking a unit of 8-10 deathstar styley

plus they are so fast it frees up the LR to trasnport more squisy stuff like wannabe berzerkers

They may be fast but massed fire will still bring them all down, especially if you are marching them up the field turn one. WE seem more like an MSU army than a deathstar army. DG might be where you'd get away with large groups like that.

I;'m seriously looking at maelstrom of gore + Talisman of burning blood + Blood mad + Astral grimoire + mindveil.

Overclocked bezerkers. SO dumb. But so fast.

What do you guys think is the easiest way to take Magnus?

I'm thinking I'm going to do a World Eaters detachment with Magnus and the jump relic to pretty much guarantee that one unit gets a turn 1 charge.

Also I think I'm going to bring the omniscient oracles formation.

Point being, I just want a minimum number of points invested in magnus (and a squad that can give a 12" move to Kharn and friends). I think it has to be a TS detachment to get that relic, and I'm thinking a generic CAD with a lord/sorceror, 2 troops and magnus is the cheapest way to do it. Maybe even rubrics for added oomph.

Can anyone do better? Looking to make the list decently competitive and again, the least number of points possible (so tbh I might just do cultists as the troops) but I'm mostly seeing if I can do less than a CAD for points.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:
I;'m seriously looking at maelstrom of gore + Talisman of burning blood + Blood mad + Astral grimoire + mindveil.

Overclocked bezerkers. SO dumb. But so fast.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. Kharn and friends. Although I won't use mindveil. I think that could slow them down. Looking for reliability.

You can get a more efficient Astral Grimoire using the traitors hate formations with a warpsmith, as you can take good stuff and not cultists. Not that warpsmiths are good, but they aren't Terrible.
But not Magnus, a Cad is surely the easiest way to get Magnus.

Just MoG + Tali isnt all that bad

Its just one of the units obviously but..
2d6 before the game
9" move
2d6 + 3 + 3 charge with a re-roll for fleet

max 39" first turn charge XD
MIN 19"!!!
Average is what 29" before you even factor in fleet re-rolls

 Roknar wrote:
Just looked at the IW 2+ exoskeleton, a daemon prince may take it oO Hello 2+ re-rollable itwnd prince of tzeetnch. Suck it TSons! Oh AND fnp6+ for being IW XD

TS Daemon Princes casting Empyric Shield get to 2++ rerollable. Love, the Thousand Sons

Anyone notice that for alpha legion they have a rule Cult uprising if a unit of cultists is destroyed 4+ you get a new unit. But that is a separate rule (although the similar) as the lost and the dammed A tide of traitors XD
So you loose a unit of cultists, roll 2d6 if you get 2 4+'s you just gained TWO units of 10 cultists, one can outflank the other is on going reserves.
These units count as part of the detachment too, so when they die, yep 2d6...
Knew there was a reason i painted 60 for one of my CSM armies.
-- not to forget all units of cultists have infiltrate so buy 4 units in the LaTD formation slap them in the enemies grill and watch them grow

edit: well actually if you roll the 4+ for the unit using cult uprising it becomes part of the detachment not formation so i guess if that unit then dies its only 1 d6

 Latro_ wrote:
Just MoG + Tali isnt all that bad

Its just one of the units obviously but..
2d6 before the game
9" move
2d6 + 3 + 3 charge with a re-roll for fleet

max 39" first turn charge XD
MIN 19"!!!
Average is what 29" before you even factor in fleet re-rolls

Increasing that minimum to 25" and the average to above 30 is great. First turn charge is pretty possible/realistic in anything except hammer and anvil. Plus, I love Magnus. Just give me Angron and I'll go full Khorne, but until then.....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maybe something along the lines of Black Legion with Raptors Talon and then a small Death Guard Terminator Anihilation Force? Or is that far too big?

Yea I thought of that too. Not sure it helps that much mind you. It's more expensive and while tougher, you still loose a lot of bite after turn two and there's the issue of not having any obsec at all. I wonder if using a CAD for obsec termies might be more beneficial than a bit more survivability. It should allow for taking a fire raptor or storm eagle too, which should help considering the serious lack of AA so far. A storm eagle could also act as a transport for the zerkers. WS5 + hatred isn't that bad after all.

Which got thinking about a BL juggerlord with psychic support. The discipline of nurgle goes surprisingly well with a unit of juggerlords.
(assuming they get furious charge here and S6 given the availabilty of S+2 weapons for khorne.)
Curse of the leper works well either way. +1 T means the lords would have T6, +1S would cause instant death on T4 and -1T and -1S work both to protect them and it causes instant death on T4 and in the case of a hounds of abbadon lord even cause instant death on T5 on a good charge.
Everything in gift of contagion is helpful in melee since shrouding wouldn't help your opponent.
Fleshy abundance isn't wasted on 4 wound models and blades of putrefaction makes a BL juggerlord with aobf really dangerous.
He has built in hatred and wounds pretty much anything on a 2+ with S6+,with blades he would re-roll to wound as well and he would still be a threat for the occasional MC.

Then have another unmarked sorc roll on sinistrum for death hex mostly to do maybe do something about those pesky invulnerable saves.
Diabolic Strength would be nice with force too. Warpfate is always good. That or spam biomancy/telapathy with the remaining cabal sorcs.
Ley leach would be amazing but the rest in geomortis isn't much use.

With a spawn escort you would have a fast high toughness unit with high offensive power and a ton of wounds.
Haven't thought about points but I can't say I'm confident that such a thing would be viable.

Say I have the super detachment for world eaters. Can I take relics from the regular CSM codex as well as from the world eaters relics list (not multiple on the same character of course)

Yes that still works.

I have literally the perfect list for me.....and 653 points to spare. MAGNUS WHY CAN'T YOU BE A STANDALONE FORMATION???

 luke1705 wrote:
I have literally the perfect list for me.....and 653 points to spare. MAGNUS WHY CAN'T YOU BE A STANDALONE FORMATION???

Got a WE formation to share? I'd love more lists to look at for the bloody maniacs.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I have literally the perfect list for me.....and 653 points to spare. MAGNUS WHY CAN'T YOU BE A STANDALONE FORMATION???

Got a WE formation to share? I'd love more lists to look at for the bloody maniacs.

Yeah I decided to go all out khorne and have a bunch of mini death stars....or if I go first...just ONE lol.

Using the world eaters detachment, and also the special world eaters decurion detachment:

Core: Maelstrom of gore (completely minimum except for melta bombs on the zerker champions) - 600 points
Command: Juggerlord w/MoK, Gorefather - 140
Command: Juggerlord w/MoK, Talisman, power fist - 160
Command: Juggerlord w/MoK, Bloodfeeder - 140 (initially I thought this would be a bad idea, but he still gets his two weapon bonus, and his +2A for charging, so that's 2d6 + 3 attacks)
Aux: Token Spawn w/MoK - 32

My second detachment is also a world eaters detachment, but just from a normal CSM CAD:

Juggerlord w/MoK, AoBF - 145
5 CSM w/MoK (also an extra CC weapon instead of the boltgun because I can) - 85
5 CSM w/MoK, swap boltgun for cc weapon - 85
Chaos Knight Errant w/MoK, 1st War of Armageddon Relic - 455

I'm still 8 points short...will probably throw in another melta bomb somewhere unless someone else has a better idea.

The idea of the list is that every zerker unit (plus whichever juggerlords and kharn are attached to them) will move 2d6" before the game starts. Talisman squad will move an extra 3". The game begins, and the juggerlords push forward, stringing the zerkers behind them to maintain coherency. Worst case scenario, at this point we've moved 14", talisman squad has moved 17". Can't run and charge but each zerker unit in the maelstrom formation has +3" to their charge, and although any unit that is joined by a juggerlord loses fleet, the detachment still re-rolls failed charge rolls. Only dudes who can't do that are the normal CSM since they're not in the big formation (but I'll take Obsec, it's OK). So with that re-roll, you're looking at going from a 7" made charge on average to just shy of a 9" made charge (it's a 47% chance to make it at 9", so let's just call it that). But remember, that's before you add 3" from the maelstrom formation. So 12" charge.

At this point, the normal squads have moved 14" and will charge 12" more, so you're 2" into your opponent's deployment zone. With the talisman squad, you get an additional 3", so you're 8" into your opponent's deployment zone turn 1 (with a 9" charge).

Now let's assume you don't get worst case scenario and the 2d6 is just average (7"). Add 6" to the numbers above. Your non-talisman maelstrom units willl be 5" away from their deployment zone with footsloggers BEFORE you make your charge roll). Your talisman unit will be....2" away from your opponent's deployment zone.....BEFORE you roll the charge. Thunder puppies got nothing on this.

So, what are the odds that you make a turn 1 charge with the non-talisman units? Well, I'd be pretty spread out with 4 potential units, so it's pretty hard to counter-deploy. I'll say that I just won't count the base widths and that he's hiding so far back that it's like I have to touch the back board edge (worst case scenario and total board control ceded). Well, you're 17" away from the back of their board edge turn 1, so you'd need to roll a 14 (realistically probably more like a 8 to 10, because no one cedes THAT MUCH board control, even to avoid getting turn 1 charged). If you needed a 8, you make that 66% of the time with your re-roll. If you needed a 10, you make that roughly 30 percent of the time with your re-roll. Not awesome, but that's with them counter deploying and turtling basically as much as humanly possible in dawn of war.

Ok talisman guys, what can you do? Well, sitting 2" outside of the deployment zone, and getting a total 6" bonus to the charge means that to touch the back table edge, you would need an 8 on your charge roll. (Which you'll get 66% of the time, as we said before). What if they deploy 6" up? well, technically, you would still need to be a millimeter of an inch past 24", so you'd need to not roll snake eyes both times on your re-rollable charge.

Worth pointing out that I'll have the option of switching around my lords after I roll the 2d6 if I roll poorly. Yes, they won't be on the front lines, but with their 12" movement, they'll certainly be able to get within coherency of any squad that rolled better on their 2d6, meaning that maybe I only get 2 or 3 turn 1 charges (average is a little over 2 FYI) but the lords will be able to join the party and swing in the first turn, even from the squad(s) that rolled poorly on their 2d6. This also is how the zerkers will be able to slingshot into combat.

For those of you who have ever seen independent characters with the necron wraiths, it's similar to that.

Now, just to humor ourselves, let's see how bad it is with hammer and anvil deployment. It goes without saying that we will still be able to get a turn 2 charge, but what about turn 1?

Let's start with the non-talisman unit(s). On average, we're getting a 7" "scout" or whatever this move is going to be called (though it is not a scout of course). 12" move from the lord, plus a 12" charge on average with the re-roll. So we've moved 31", which is completely respectable. But as long as your opponent keeps his guys back in his deployment zone, you aren't going to reach him. Even with perfect rolls (12 on 2d6, 12 on charge), that's 39". Amazing for essentially a squad of footslogging marines in one turn, of course, but that's 15" into your opponent's 24" deployment zone, so even though his bases are probably at least 1-2" wide, he can also counter-deploy to make your charge ranges a little longer if he REALLY wants to turtle. Plus, it still isn't going to put him into harm's way unless he decides he doesn't want to cede the board control.

Ok talisman guys, let's see what you've got. Well basically, we just add 6" to the numbers above, so you're 13" into the opponent's deployment zone ON AVERAGE and 21" into his deployment zone with perfect rolling. Does that get you the turn 1 charge? Again, no, he can turtle, but if he wants to do so reliably, he's basically constrained to set up at least 37 inches away from you (to stop a 50% charge), and 45.01" away if he wants to stop your perfect rolling.

Also, just a tidbit, since you move the closest to the closest model, sometimes you can avoid the distance penalty for charging through terrain since the lord is cavalry (but the other dudes still can't touch it on their way in, so this is pretty situational).

And for those of you who play Apoc and still like to assault (me) and have an attraction to anything large and choppy (me), the lord of skulls formation can be replaced with 3 Krytans, which are immensely superior and also super cheap. You can't fit them plus a core choice from the Khorne super detachment at 1850 sadly, which is super sad because the walkers also get the 2d6" pre-game move. RIP Chaos Knight from my CAD.

I'd recommend just doing cultists in your allied detachment. The Marines really won't be adding anything to the list so you can save some points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd recommend just doing cultists in your allied detachment. The Marines really won't be adding anything to the list so you can save some points.

I thought about it, but the marines get fearless, furious charge, adamantium will, rage and counter-attack.....that's 2 attacks base since i swapped out their gun, 4 on the charge at str 5...i'll take that for 35 points

 luke1705 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd recommend just doing cultists in your allied detachment. The Marines really won't be adding anything to the list so you can save some points.

I thought about it, but the marines get fearless, furious charge, adamantium will, rage and counter-attack.....that's 2 attacks base since i swapped out their gun, 4 on the charge at str 5...i'll take that for 35 points

Think about this rationally though. Are they really going to be at the enemy any time soon to make use of those bonuses, or would they likely be stuck on an objective keeping it?

You'll enjoy the saved points in the long run.

Another thing I'm pondering is how the Legions interact with different allies. You could theoretically do Zahndrekh and Iron Warriors to guarantee a blob of Tank Hunters with Obliterator Support if that was your cup of tea. One thing that's of interest is whether the Iron Warrior ability to re-roll ordnance/barrage scatters would work if an IW IC joined a Renegades and Heretics Artillery Battery and got rerollable Colossus or Earthshaker shots...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Another thing I'm pondering is how the Legions interact with different allies. You could theoretically do Zahndrekh and Iron Warriors to guarantee a blob of Tank Hunters with Obliterator Support if that was your cup of tea. One thing that's of interest is whether the Iron Warrior ability to re-roll ordnance/barrage scatters would work if an IW IC joined a Renegades and Heretics Artillery Battery and got rerollable Colossus or Earthshaker shots...

Thats a good point. Honestly I don't think it'll work but we'll just see how they word it. Having a IW IC stuck out of action to provide more accurate fire would be a fair trade me.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Another thing I'm pondering is how the Legions interact with different allies. You could theoretically do Zahndrekh and Iron Warriors to guarantee a blob of Tank Hunters with Obliterator Support if that was your cup of tea. One thing that's of interest is whether the Iron Warrior ability to re-roll ordnance/barrage scatters would work if an IW IC joined a Renegades and Heretics Artillery Battery and got rerollable Colossus or Earthshaker shots...

I think more importantly we need to list down all the fortifications that benefit from that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd recommend just doing cultists in your allied detachment. The Marines really won't be adding anything to the list so you can save some points.

I thought about it, but the marines get fearless, furious charge, adamantium will, rage and counter-attack.....that's 2 attacks base since i swapped out their gun, 4 on the charge at str 5...i'll take that for 35 points

Think about this rationally though. Are they really going to be at the enemy any time soon to make use of those bonuses, or would they likely be stuck on an objective keeping it?

You'll enjoy the saved points in the long run.

Even as objective sitters, the marines are superior unless the cultists have a 4+ cover save. The marines will die to the last man, and if anything tries to charge them, they'll put up a lot more of a fight than the cultists. TBH, if I had something else to spend the points on, I could, but it's not even that much since the cultists need to have a mark of khorne also, so they're a 70 point squad instead of a 50. I could just not do the detachment at all, but then the lord doesn't benefit from the bonuses.

Anyone consider running an EC army with a kakophoni and CAD? The only thing a noise marine unit has on a marine unit is sonic weaponry at the additional cost of 2 pts a model. The drugs are situational on the sonics unless you want a unit that can shoot and chop. Which seems like wasted points. The drugs are cool but just not worth it to me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Another thing I'm pondering is how the Legions interact with different allies. You could theoretically do Zahndrekh and Iron Warriors to guarantee a blob of Tank Hunters with Obliterator Support if that was your cup of tea. One thing that's of interest is whether the Iron Warrior ability to re-roll ordnance/barrage scatters would work if an IW IC joined a Renegades and Heretics Artillery Battery and got rerollable Colossus or Earthshaker shots...

I think more importantly we need to list down all the fortifications that benefit from that.

Currently the only barrage weapon out there is the Fragstorm/Krakstorm on the Fortress of Redemption. In practice, I think the Vengeance Weapon Battery is the best bang for your buck; 85 points for an AV 14 reroll scatter Battle Cannon is...actually not that bad, even if you're forced to shoot the closest target. The Wall of Martyrs Bunker is neat, at 55 points for a bunker for your Auto Havocs; shame ITC doesnt let you use Geomortis to move terrain around. Sadly you can't get rerolls on an Aquila Macro-Cannon as it's a Primary weapon rather than Ordnance but you can get the re-rolls for Vortex weapons.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Another thing I'm pondering is how the Legions interact with different allies. You could theoretically do Zahndrekh and Iron Warriors to guarantee a blob of Tank Hunters with Obliterator Support if that was your cup of tea. One thing that's of interest is whether the Iron Warrior ability to re-roll ordnance/barrage scatters would work if an IW IC joined a Renegades and Heretics Artillery Battery and got rerollable Colossus or Earthshaker shots...

I think more importantly we need to list down all the fortifications that benefit from that.

Currently the only barrage weapon out there is the Fragstorm/Krakstorm on the Fortress of Redemption. In practice, I think the Vengeance Weapon Battery is the best bang for your buck; 85 points for an AV 14 reroll scatter Battle Cannon is...actually not that bad, even if you're forced to shoot the closest target. The Wall of Martyrs Bunker is neat, at 55 points for a bunker for your Auto Havocs; shame ITC doesnt let you use Geomortis to move terrain around. Sadly you can't get rerolls on an Aquila Macro-Cannon as it's a Primary weapon rather than Ordnance but you can get the re-rolls for Vortex weapons.

I feel there will be HQ taxes a lot, so we can always have the HQ guys babysit the Cannons.

1k sons got the whole different playstyle with tzaangork boyz instead of marines and cultists, and unkillable pink dollar batteries to charge up your mages and Magnus the Nipplehorned.

.. so much text...

Two things:
Juggerlords Have fleet
Walkers don't get the WE 2d6 deployment move from the detachment. They do get 're roll charge tho.

 koooaei wrote:


I'll try it out and say how it goes. I'm desperate to make night lords - my favorite legion - work, lol. Even if it takes just a small force. Their thing is fear. But fear is so underwhelming in current meta. I can't remember a game in the last couple years where anybody except my orks failed a fear check and it meant something other than an allready obvious outcome - like in case of one sister vs a bunch of spawns or a couple tau fire warriors vs raptors.

There is way too much focus on the fear rule. Who cares about fear.

The advantage of the Night Lords is definitely in the charge rerolls, +1 cover during night fighting, really good warlord traits and the awesome artefacts. Every artefact is really good, aside from maybe the enemy reserve rolls, mostly due to it costing 30 points. Those Claws even have +1 S which I dont think was posted before.

The downside is that you can't run a CAD if you want to take full advantage of your cover. This forces you to take a Chaos Warband and take an Elite + CSM troops. However, Im starting to wonder if its not even that bad of an option as a second wave of close combaters. Like I said before, I think the biggest problem is that you are forced to take 3 HQs for a Daemon Prince, unless you go Spawn/Heldrake formation as Aux. This would be less of a problem for me if you could take 2 of these Artefact claws, but there just arent enough good weapons to choose from.

If I were to write the rules for NL, I would've done the exact same thing except make VotLW give +1 cover save instead of stealth (so it applies during night fighting which would always be guaranteed, formations or not), and made the detachment bonus be something like hit and run, and/or fear applies to fearless enemies. Maybe make it so Raptors can be taken instead of CSM in the Chaos Warband (and similar treatment for the other legions).

All they need is to actually make fear not be worthless 99% of the time. Applying it to fearless enemies is probably an overextension but not to atsknf enemies at least.

Does anyone have a screen of these legion tactics? Like actual screen shot leaks? I want to know if the emperor's children combat drugs stack, are useable every round, or its a one time thing for the rest of the game.

War of sigmar has screenshots

 Dayknight wrote:

Does anyone have a screen of these legion tactics? Like actual screen shot leaks? I want to know if the emperor's children combat drugs stack, are useable every round, or its a one time thing for the rest of the game.

You roll one dice at the start of the game, all non vehicle units in the detachment get that buff for the whole game.
1 - WS
2 - BS
3 - Int
4 - S
5 - T
6 - A

Its the ducurion rule so you need a warband or a kakophoni + 1 aux.

Quite funny since you have the slannesh psy power that can also give you +1 int, s or a

Lol also in theory you could take fabius in a cad enhance one unit, roll a 4 and get that power off somehow and you have a unit of marines with S7 XD autocannonfists

Has anyone noticed the wording on the 2d6 attack relic for world eaters? It seems to be that you take a wound for each 1 you roll as part of the 2d6, not in the roll to hit phase.

You can also have an artifact coke dose that allows to get extra d3 stacking highs so you can get suuuuuuper hiiiiiigh.

 koooaei wrote:
You can also have an artifact coke dose that allows to get extra d3 stacking highs so you can get suuuuuuper hiiiiiigh.

hehe put that on a daemon prince d3+1 rolls and maybe a psyker for the buff power
crackedofhistits

Ahh, very sad. I was hoping that you could use the combat drugs in a cad. Heres the link to those age of sigmar screens for those like myself interested, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1469

Does anyone know if the warband on pg46 would allow Kharn as the chaos lord if you were running a WE legion?

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
Has anyone noticed the wording on the 2d6 attack relic for world eaters? It seems to be that you take a wound for each 1 you roll as part of the 2d6, not in the roll to hit phase.

I opened a thread in you make da call. I'm not entirely sure when it wound you but it might wound you a hell of a lot more than you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
Does anyone know if the warband on pg46 would allow Kharn as the chaos lord if you were running a WE legion?

Yes, if it follows Traitor's hate. You may take kharn there or in a maelstrom or as a lord of legion command choice.

 Latro_ wrote:
Does anyone know if the warband on pg46 would allow Kharn as the chaos lord if you were running a WE legion?

why not? The standard warband allows it.

Does anyone know if Blood Slaughterers should be allowed to join a Hellforged Warpack In a world eaters legion? I am assuming they can be taken as a KDK war engine similar to taking a lone helbrute there, as they have M/DoK and are CSM compatible per FW faqs, but since they will be contributing to an actual formation, I feel anther step forward is taken. Thoughts?

There are no rules for it.

On the topic of juggerfriends being buffed by nurgle, I just realized that an escort of spawn that gets buffed by blades can get poisoned 2+. Likely re-rolling because of S5
I still haven't checked points, but the units could have eternal warrior, fnp 4+ on T5 or more (endurance), that should be enough to stop anything short of force weapons or D to remove the fnp roll. And then you'd still not instantly die to force.
Potentially three different powers to restore wounds on a unit consisting of 3-4 wound models with T5 or more.
Prescience would be a bit harder to get but possible, and with that, it could have to hit and to wound re-rolls (blades again). In a unit where every model has rage + d6 attacks, many of which are AP 2 at initiative.
Super fast unit due to talisman and with a lord from maelstrom of gore you could even squeeze out 2 more inch charge range for the unit because the rest could still maintain coherency at least. and then attack after piling in.

Could such a unit be viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NightWinds5121 wrote:
Does anyone know if Blood Slaughterers should be allowed to join a Hellforged Warpack In a world eaters legion? I am assuming they can be taken as a KDK war engine similar to taking a lone helbrute there, as they have M/DoK and are CSM compatible per FW faqs, but since they will be contributing to an actual formation, I feel anther step forward is taken. Thoughts?

No. This book put a big dampener on IA13, because for most legions you really want their decurion, but that makes it rather hard to squeeze in forgeworld too. And the only unit we get to replace is a kytan instead of a lord of skulls.
If FW released a faq that let us exchange all kinds of units....zomg. imagine hell blades instead of heldrakes. Dominate the skies on the cheap while reducing leadership in a bubble.

Great thanks, I'm mostly interested in casual fun games but I want to make sure I'm not over imposing something that is not the norm on any opponents I might ask. Of course, I could always run those models as brutes with two close combat weapons

The Hellforged hunting pack (apoc sized) does include the slaughters with their rules (I did get them to use as is, not to proxy as brutes, and for the awesome models) but it's significantly different as it includes drakes as well, is apoc, and isn't in a "regular" dex

I had a funny thought.

Remember the Helcult? That formation of 1 Helbrute and 2 units of Cultists that trade ObSec for Fearless, which becomes Zealot once that Helbrute bites the dust?

There's nothing preventing that formation from being an Alpha Legion detachment. No Marines, no Veterans of the Long War, just a single Helbrute tax for two giant fearless blobs of Infiltrating Cultists.

Technically, the original Kranon's Helguard dataslate is not actually a Crimson Slaughter formation so you could theoretically apply Legion rules to it too. Sadly, that formation is very much a battleforce and the bonuses are silly, but you "could" apply Legion buffs to it, and make them Night Lords or so. Everything gets Stubborn and Fear, and you get a formation hubble of debuffing Leadership and Ballistic skill, so why not toss some extra fear penalties and stealth on top? It definitely doesn't have the same appeal as the Alpha Helcult however.

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

super excited about a standard death guard war band with bikes and havocs.

Nightlords's culmative -4 on fear tests looks pretty useful against non marine armies.

word bearers is a shame that their 'troops' slot is just possessed - Games workshop is clearly still trying to push them despite everything. Just give them an extra wound!!

Overall so happy with the supplement!

Glad your happy but just a reminder it says flame weapons. D-scythes are template weapons. Not all template weapons are flame weapons. Currently the armor is only effective against hell drakes and possibly some of the new Tzeentch powers ( I don't know because I haven't seen them) D-sythes will still delete the poor git.

So someone pointed this out in the News and rumors thread and I figured I'm drop it here as I haven't seen it in this thread.

Alpha Legion decurion cultists return on a 4+, they can take Lost and the damned formation as a Aux choice. I'm I reading (and remembering) this right or did AL just get cultists blobs that respawn on a rerollable 4+?

I filtrating hellcult.
Clever! Not obsec, but fearless infiltrating is cool.

 Ir0njack wrote:
So someone pointed this out in the News and rumors thread and I figured I'm drop it here as I haven't seen it in this thread.

Alpha Legion decurion cultists return on a 4+, they can take Lost and the damned formation as a Aux choice. I'm I reading (and remembering) this right or did AL just get cultists blobs that respawn on a rerollable 4+?

nope you should be reading it as two seperate rules XD
cultists in a AL LotD formation dies
Roll one dice for 'Cult uprising'
Roll one dice for 'tide of traitors'

If you roll two 4+'s you just got your self TWO units of cultists.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
So someone pointed this out in the News and rumors thread and I figured I'm drop it here as I haven't seen it in this thread.

Alpha Legion decurion cultists return on a 4+, they can take Lost and the damned formation as a Aux choice. I'm I reading (and remembering) this right or did AL just get cultists blobs that respawn on a rerollable 4+?

nope you should be reading it as two seperate rules XD
cultists in a AL LotD formation dies
Roll one dice for 'Cult uprising'
Roll one dice for 'tide of traitors'

If you roll two 4+'s you just got your self TWO units of cultists.

I figured that MIGHT be the case but decided to downplay it, as well... thats REALLY good if they both go off, We'll see how the FAQ will treat it.

 Ir0njack wrote:

I figured that MIGHT be the case but decided to downplay it, as well... thats REALLY good if they both go off, We'll see how the FAQ will treat it.

Hopefully an FAQ makes it so that both rules combine for a re-roll, rather than the chance for double units

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

Hmm, yea I would have to agree. Seriously doubt that RAI but so is the rule doing nothing so *shrug*.

Except RAW this doesn't even come close to working. Alpha Legion specifically states no marked units, no unique marked units meaning Typhus would need to be in a separate CAD. Typhus only unlocks Zombies from HIS detachment and only units of cultists from Alpha Legion get to recycle meaning they can't stack since they are not even related to begin with. That isn't even touching on the hurdle that RAW zombies are not cultists meaning if you somehow cheated your way past the initial hurdles you still can only recycle cultists and not zombies.

 Galef wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:

I figured that MIGHT be the case but decided to downplay it, as well... thats REALLY good if they both go off, We'll see how the FAQ will treat it.

Hopefully an FAQ makes it so that both rules combine for a re-roll, rather than the chance for double units

Hopefully its intentional, fluffy with the whole cut a hydra's head off an all.

Its not 'that' broken. KP's ye not gonna like it. KDK will LOVE it
A savvy opponent will let a unit of them break and run away for the rest of the battle (you could always beam the remnants to death with your own psy powers though XD)
Its a 300pt formation off the bat with a DA that can't infiltrate with the cultists
They're foot slogging back on from a side edge, by the time a unit of them is dead and two come back on (IF you roll 2 4's) its gonna be what another two turns they present anything close to an annoyance/threat by which time the game is midway/close to over

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Typhus, and the mix of Poxwalker Hive and Nurgle now having 6 powers are going to make him even less relevant. 200 points gets you a ML 3 Psyker (that can opt to use other Disciplines) on Palanquin with Spell Familiar, and a Poxwalker Hive. You're T5, FNP, with 4 wounds. The only thing you lose out on is the Destroyer Hive, and Poison/Daemon Weapon. Oh, and you can choose a relevant Warlord trait instead of Fear. Go ahead and take the Power Axe, as with I3, chances are you're striking last anyway.

Plus since you're giving your Cultists Mark of Nurgle, they're now Toughness 4 meaning they actually get a FNP roll against Scatter Lasers...imagine that.

Cultists don't get FNP because they're not VotLW.

I'm talking about the Poxwalker Hive relic, which is 20 points and allows the Sorcerer to turn a unit of Cultists into de-facto Zombies (for the rest of the game) each turn. They lose the ability to shoot or run, but get Fearless and FNP, and they regenerate D3 models at the start of each turn.

And then you can always be cheeky and bless them with Poison...or make them S4 T5...

Artefacts and their Uses

Burning Brand of Skalathrax on Terminator Annihilation Force.

Dimensional Key on Raptor Talon Lord in a Black Legion Speartip.

Blood Mad Chaos Lord from the Maelstrom of Gore using a Jump Pack or Juggernaut to deliver an Axe of Blind Fury on the first turn.

Emperor's Children Lord of the Legion Daemon Prince with the Intoxicating Elixir, for fun mainly.

Anyone also notice how awesome the Glaive relic for World Eaters is? Yeah you lose IC but those benefits and the weapon itself are pretty good. He would be a great bully unit just by himself and take fire from the enemy.

The 2+ save relics all look good on dps of tzeentch .

The mindveil looks great with world eaters. Stick it in a AL sorcerer, buddy with infantry. Never face a turn where you can't get your charge bonuses

I almost read everything here and I still think that the best way to run chaos is the cabal star :( But I am dedicated to this supplement. I thought of a list, although i dont have the points value i think it would be nice. I tried to create a maximum threat overload list with my 2 fav legions : IW and AL. I thought i would use the alpha legion decurion and use as much min/max things. 3 chosen squads with melta. 3 csm with plasma. 2 bike squads with melta. havocs with plasma and a simple lord. tax spawn and then an iron warrior cad with 6x1 oblits and then another 3x1 oblits from heavy support. that list should take care of battle company. if itc lets us take culuxes i would add one in. Thoughts?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone also notice how awesome the Glaive relic for World Eaters is? Yeah you lose IC but those benefits and the weapon itself are pretty good. He would be a great bully unit just by himself and take fire from the enemy.

yea that one was my go to for my daemon prince! s9 on the charge 6+d6 attacks with fnp and iwnd, i'lll takkkke it

And unlike the 3.5 equivalent, the DP can now have WIngs when wielding the Glavie.

 Roknar wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NightWinds5121 wrote:
Does anyone know if Blood Slaughterers should be allowed to join a Hellforged Warpack In a world eaters legion? I am assuming they can be taken as a KDK war engine similar to taking a lone helbrute there, as they have M/DoK and are CSM compatible per FW faqs, but since they will be contributing to an actual formation, I feel anther step forward is taken. Thoughts?

No. This book put a big dampener on IA13, because for most legions you really want their decurion, but that makes it rather hard to squeeze in forgeworld too. And the only unit we get to replace is a kytan instead of a lord of skulls.
If FW released a faq that let us exchange all kinds of units....zomg. imagine hell blades instead of heldrakes. Dominate the skies on the cheap while reducing leadership in a bubble.

On that note... I suppose that's a reason to use a CAD alongside one of the great new legion formations. I will be running a Black Legion Spearhead backed up with Conversion Beamer Rapiers for long range firepower.

The fortunate thing about IE:13 is it does make somethings cheap. Like Sicarans.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd recommend just doing cultists in your allied detachment. The Marines really won't be adding anything to the list so you can save some points.

I thought about it, but the marines get fearless, furious charge, adamantium will, rage and counter-attack.....that's 2 attacks base since i swapped out their gun, 4 on the charge at str 5...i'll take that for 35 points

Think about this rationally though. Are they really going to be at the enemy any time soon to make use of those bonuses, or would they likely be stuck on an objective keeping it?

You'll enjoy the saved points in the long run.

Yea lets think about it rationally, are you playing against yourself or a complete moron that will sit in his deployment and take in in the he haw OR might they also have options including mobility and reserves and if they are intelligent will disrupt your back field and force you to back peddle? I am thinking personally I would tear up cultists like wet tissue and own his deployment if that was all the resistance I faced. However, marines out of LOS with fearless that can counter charge my units and hit like a ton of bricks and at the very least tar-pit my stuff and contest will make me at least think about my moves. 35pts is nothing for all the durability and offense they provide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone also notice how awesome the Glaive relic for World Eaters is? Yeah you lose IC but those benefits and the weapon itself are pretty good. He would be a great bully unit just by himself and take fire from the enemy.

Well it is a relic from the 3.5 codex and I always put it on a demon prince back then and I would now since you don't care about independent character since you don't have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As someone who finished painting an EC army on november 18th for a tourny on the 19th (see my gallery for the army pics) I am super excited for this supp0lement but I think people are suffering from amniesia when they keep suggesting EC got a massive buff. They got a buff in the 6+ FNP and most importantly that their troops CSM gained everything noise marines have for 2PPM cheaper if you don't want the sonic weapons but thats really it aside from some fluffy options and flavor. The combat drugs only work in their detachment which in order to take has MASSIVE taxes in the CWB unless you take the Kakaphoni, problem is the kakaphoni causes them to lose OBSEC. Sonic blasters suck, they could be salvo 4/3 and still would be incredibly situational, they suck because now not only are you paying 2 ppm more then marked marines, you also are paying +3 points for the blaster. Whats worse is you need to take a full 6 units to get the strength boost. At least the plague colony has a decent benefit before maxing the formation, the EC kakaphoni only gets a marginal benefit if you get taxed up the ass paying for mandatory champions on all 6 units. Ugh.

Even looking at the combat drugs most of the drugs along with their mark bonus to initiative are all combat related..... on a shooting army. 2 results help, the toughness and the BS. If I want t5 and FNP i'll play death guard and automatically get t5 alonng with better FNP and relentless.

Heck while we are at it it puzzles me that so many are crapping on the iron warriors because their least important perk the reroll to scatter isn't more then situational. Jesus fellas, they have the SAME FNP boost as EC while getting oblits as fething troops. Their marines are 13ppm rather then 15 for MOS and while they lack fearless they have stubborn lol. Pretty sure unmodifiable ld 9/10 is close enough to fearless. Those oblits and even havocs also gain tank hunter.

I am not crapping on EC, I love them, I just built an army a month ago, all conversions. They pretty much play exactly the same as a month ago besides the nifty relics and the FNP 6+ though. You still want naked min blastmasters in rhinos to fire out of the hatch preferably from a CAD so you have OBSEC. Icon of excess is still garbage on anything but a maxed out bike unit, no way I am running 10 guys in a single unit with an icon that comes to 305 pts for 10 guys with a rhino, two blastmasters and an icon only, slowed expensive for 2 small blasts that can hit a single target. However 160 for 5 in a rhino with a blast master isn't bad at all since you can force multiple pinning checks on multiple targets.

Either EC needed relentless or they needed to make sonic blasters come stock OR be an upgrade for a weapon with a 36/24 salvo 3/2 profile. BTW they used to be similar to that.

What all ingredients for Chaos Superfriends do we have now? I'm thinking stuff that can be attached to a big unit of KDK Hounds since those are the models I've got and it's still the toughest unit with the most wounds that you can attach Chaos IC's to I believe.

I'm assuming unmarked in a cabal are still the best psykers for it.

Then you've got the Khorne Lord with the Blood Talisman (+3" to move, run, and charges)

Then another unmarked Lord or Sorc with the Mindveil (3D6 move can use to move out of combat)

What else?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

super excited about a standard death guard war band with bikes and havocs.

Nightlords's culmative -4 on fear tests looks pretty useful against non marine armies.

word bearers is a shame that their 'troops' slot is just possessed - Games workshop is clearly still trying to push them despite everything. Just give them an extra wound!!

Overall so happy with the supplement!

Glad your happy but just a reminder it says flame weapons. D-scythes are template weapons. Not all template weapons are flame weapons. Currently the armor is only effective against hell drakes and possibly some of the new Tzeentch powers ( I don't know because I haven't seen them) D-sythes will still delete the poor git.

I'm not sure if it technically works, but it certainly seems like it should also apply to the Tau Y'vahra battlesuit's flamer-type weapon.

I don't know what to do with all that salvo too. But the mishmash of melee and shooting is probably the way to go as combat drug's 4 out of 6 results buff cc and T is universally good.
Do they get +str and shred for their noize flamer?

 koooaei wrote:
I don't know what to do with all that salvo too. But the mishmash of melee and shooting is probably the way to go as combat drug's 4 out of 6 results buff cc and T is universally good.
Do they get +str and shred for their noize flamer?

Yea the doom siren is a sonic weapon. I just don't think the kakaphoni is worth it. I'd rather go CAD or CWB and keep obsec. Doom sirens are decent for drive by rhinos already but they pale compared to the blastmaster which doesn't want to move all game since it is 48" range. The +1 strength isn't that great either since it is already in ID territory for t4, shred is ok for those 1's but again, no way that is worth the tax of 6 units and another chaos lord and all losing obsec. I am speaking as someone that playtested the crap out of EC all summer, and the new stuff isn't change much when you are looking at noise marines. What it did do however is make regular marines viable since they are now fearless as well and have access to traditional special weapons, same with havocs and raptors etc. But to me noise marines were always one of the more viable cult troops since they are only 17ppm and that hasn't changed. Personally I like blastmasters, they bust the meta where everything jinks or has rerollable cover all the time, they also pin which is huge so for me this release gave WAY more variety in ways to skin the same cat which is good but EC are by no means second to death guard. Personally I think world eaters alpha legion and iron warriors are ahead of EC who tie with black legion. Word bearers I havn't decided on yet, too many people have written them off. To me their relics work VERY well on demon princes but also don't forget they can take marks, meaning they also can take the axe of blind fury. You could take an AOBF demon prince as well as won with their relic crozius and even a third with the black mace rocking different marks summoning pink horrors. But I am not sure how well they will work yet.

Noise Marines used to be 20 points base, and their Sonic Blasters were another 5 points, and they didn't ignore cover...

I don't see much point to trying to max them out, but the minimum 3 are at least conceivably usable. Really, my only issue with them is that the Champion can't also take a Sonic Blaster too.

On a sillier note, the fact the Lord has Splitfire could also have its own uses, and the Slaaneshi OblitStar sounds potentially hilarious too. It doesn't get Overwatch like the Tzeentch one, or T5 FNP base like the Nurgle one, but it has Splitfire, and fishing for Endurance can give it Eternal Warrior, and potentially FNP 4+ with a good roll. Depending on your drug roll, you either have BS 5, S 5 (so S10), T5, extra attacks...really, only the WS one and the I ones would be meh, though I 6 Oblits would at least be able to be somewhat resilient versus Warp Spiders...

Would I run it? No way! Still, it does give food for thought.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

Hmm, yea I would have to agree. Seriously doubt that RAI but so is the rule doing nothing so *shrug*.

Except RAW this doesn't even come close to working. Alpha Legion specifically states no marked units, no unique marked units meaning Typhus would need to be in a separate CAD. Typhus only unlocks Zombies from HIS detachment and only units of cultists from Alpha Legion get to recycle meaning they can't stack since they are not even related to begin with. That isn't even touching on the hurdle that RAW zombies are not cultists meaning if you somehow cheated your way past the initial hurdles you still can only recycle cultists and not zombies.

Unless GW has faqed or changed Typhus' rule from the CSM codex, you are way off. His rule states "any chaos cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as plague zombies". If you have any special insight to a rule where that stipulates his rule applies only to his detatchment, I would love to see it. An army made out of an AL detatchment and CSM Cad are all one army. Typhus would be in the CAD. Hell, he could even be in a DG detatchment and it would still work. Reread the rules and let me know if they changed Typhus's since the codex.

Is there any way other than magic to make noize marines relentless?