So I'm new to fantasy/AoS but been a long time fan of 40k. I have been reading up on the whole AoS debacle and such as recently I was gifted with some slave to darkness. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling. I'm of the opinion that the nuking of the lore is the main culprit behind its crappy sales. Since its to the point now where AoS lore is the butt of every joke and I have yet to meet one person that is actually invested into the lore. I never got a chance to play the original wfb becuase at the time I got into the hobby it was a lot more intimidating to me vs 40k (go figure right?) but I have see some of the good and bad in the AoS rules, bad of course being is a watered down brawl game vs wfb which from what I understand was more akin to turn based total war.

So with the abysmal sales, laughing stock that the lore is, FLGS dropping AoS faster then you can blink, do you think GW will own up and say "yep we screwed up guys, our bad." Or will they keep living in their echo chamber and beat the dead horse that is?

Personally I would like to see them go back to the old lore, since it had so much more depth and history as I'm discovering but for obvious reasons they can't just say lol end times never happened. If they did do a backpedal how do you think they would do it? How would it sit with you?

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

What's dakkas thought? Also sorry if this is a "oh this thread again..." Thread, new to this section of the forms

Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

I wish that they retcon the fluff, and they give an alternative choices between skirmish and rank-file game. In my opinion this would be best way to handle both parties of the fanbase.

 statu wrote:
Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

It could be a case of its doing well in Great Britain, here in the states it's hardly played. Most FLGS dumped it for war machine, only place I see it played is our GE store and even then, never bigger then a 4x4.

I hope they don't go back and can't see it happening.
I also pray that they give 40k the same treatment that fantasy got.

herjan1987 wrote:
I wish that they retcon the fluff, and they give an alternative choices between skirmish and rank-file game.

Honestly I think the best thing GE could do is make the game like 40ks standard game and apoc.

Basically 2 rule sets, one for AoS style games where it's focused more on characters and big rank and file games like Wfb.


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 usernamesareannoying wrote:
I hope they don't go back and can't see it happening.
I also pray that they give 40k the same treatment that fantasy got.

I don't think they will, I mean 40k is gonna get an end times, but I think GW learned that just nuking the lore was a dumb move .

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So I'm new to fantasy/AoS but been a long time fan of 40k. I have been reading up on the whole AoS debacle and such as recently I was gifted with some slave to darkness. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling. I'm of the opinion that the nuking of the lore is the main culprit behind its crappy sales. Since its to the point now where AoS lore is the butt of every joke and I have yet to meet one person that is actually invested into the lore. I never got a chance to play the original wfb becuase at the time I got into the hobby it was a lot more intimidating to me vs 40k (go figure right?) but I have see some of the good and bad in the AoS rules, bad of course being is a watered down brawl game vs wfb which from what I understand was more akin to turn based total war.

So with the abysmal sales, laughing stock that the lore is, FLGS dropping AoS faster then you can blink, do you think GW will own up and say "yep we screwed up guys, our bad." Or will they keep living in their echo chamber and beat the dead horse that is?

Personally I would like to see them go back to the old lore, since it had so much more depth and history as I'm discovering but for obvious reasons they can't just say lol end times never happened. If they did do a backpedal how do you think they would do it? How would it sit with you?

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

What's dakkas thought? Also sorry if this is a "oh this thread again..." Thread, new to this section of the forms

I'm not sure, my local store has a larger AoS community than 40k, with most of our 40k community playing both games. Most people in my area like Sigmar because it's a lot more like 40k. I couldn't stand the old WFB system, so I've been more tempted to get into AoS.

The crux of WFB for new players was not so much the rules itself, it's just the sheer number of units you needed, which I give to AoS is has a lower entry price.

It's interesting though to hear that AoS has some traction, it's mostly dead in my city, it's more you have 40k players who also happen to have a small fantasy army they use for AoS.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 statu wrote:
Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

It could be a case of its doing well in Great Britain, here in the states it's hardly played. Most FLGS dumped it for war machine, only place I see it played is our GE store and even then, never bigger then a 4x4.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. So I will see your anecdotal evidence and rebuttal with my anecdotal evidence of Reese from Frontline Gaming (you know, the company that runs the ITC, LVO, and BAO) saying on their podcast repeatedly that AoS has seen a huge boost in sales since the GHB was released and doing much better than WFB ever did for them. They have also had to up the registration cap on the AoS tournament at LVO due to demand and several notable 40K tournament players have recently started playing AoS (e.g. Ben Mohile, former US 40K ETC captain), which is a pretty decent endorsement of the system and not consistent with a system that is hardly being played in the US. As for my local game scene, initially, AoS did terrible, with my FLGS trying to go in on Mantic's Kings of War system, but after the GHB came out, my FLGS is no longer restocking Kings of War, and AoS is doing way better than WFB was during the last two-three years easily. I have seen more new players in the last 6 months, than the last few years combined. In fact, the most recent AoS tournament out drew the most recent 40K tournament for the first time in the store's history (been opened since the mid-90's). If anything, GW might need to be worried about AoS cannibalizing 40K sales. Personally speaking, sure the fluff is a little wonky, but the rule system is great, the models continue to be great, it is much easier to introduce new players to the game, and the momentum seems to be constantly on the upswing since the release of the GHB.



TL;DR

As to the original question, no, there will not be a rollback at least if going by what I see in terms of GW's coverage on AoS, it's undoubted success in their home market (which btw still makes up the majority of GW's revenue), their recent very positive half year financial statement which aligns closely with the period immediately following release of the GHB, and the anecdotal evidence given above.

-

AoS selling worse then WFB?? First I've heard of this... I heard AoS has been selling great.

When you say both, do you mean playing 40k and AoS or AoS and WFB?

Again my opinion is based on my local area.

Now if we are talking about 40kvs AoS yes I think AoS is superior but that is not because AoS get very thing right, it's becuase 40k for no real reason decided to jump the shark with rules with thinks like free formations, D and super heavies in non apoc games but that's another topic.

As for the fluff, honestly it's the one major part of AoS I think is a total mess up. Even the handful of big AoS fan in my area hardly care about the lore. Personally I would have been all for the new rules if they kept the old setting, but again I'm not marketer/designer.

I do acknowledge the rules from GHB helped significantly but the sloppy release left a real bad taste in people's mouth.

Either way AoS is a hell of a ride this's far.

I suppose then, do you think GW will gak back to building a more low fantasy setting rather then the super high fantasy that is AoS?

Again for me, what start to draw me into fantasy right before the nuking was the vastness of it and how even the smallest quest seemed like a massive adventure. Since everything was contained in one world every interaction was grand in a scense.

So to me with AoS you get the same effect that 40k has with event, they don't seem grand since it's a daily occurrence to blow up a space hulk. Same think with AoS I stopped some death army, but I don't know/care what they destroyed vs I saved nulin from X


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 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
AoS selling worse then WFB?? First I've heard of this... I heard AoS has been selling great.

Again I could be horribly horribly wrong, this is just everything I have read and seen locally.

Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

 Orlanth wrote:
Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

As a fan of BFG, man trust me is a painful wait for It to happen haha

I dont think there is any droctrine holding BF back post Kirby. Specialist games however is on full Blood Bowl mode at the moment.

I suppose then, do you think GW will gak back to building a more low fantasy setting rather then the super high fantasy that is AoS? 

No reason they can't do that in AoS. It has more than enough room to include regular towns and cities where the high fantasy stuff happens far over the horizon.

There's some books already looking into that like "Daemon of the deep" and Josh Reynolds is working on books to deal with the "slums and mercenary" side of things.

It's pretty cool to be at ground zero as they build the setting up.

No, they won't backpedal. The rules and lore will change over time like anything else.

The most a WFB player can hope for is for Forgeworld to pick it up.

It's sad that mindless trash like AOS can become the staple, but I guess thats just humanity for you.

Orlanth wrote:Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

Pretty much sums it up. Now that AOS is at last gaining traction, there is no going boack. However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.


And if GW can put out Warhammer: Ancient Battles with real life medieval armies as a basis, there's no reason they can't put out Warhammer World: Ancient Battles to cater to the retro crowd. Just do a rulebook with a healthy Ravening Hordes type section in the back of the book, OR a separate book with a beefier collection of options for each army, and the legacy gaming can commence. Now if only they base it off of 6th...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
No, they won't backpedal. The rules and lore will change over time like anything else.

The most a WFB player can hope for is for Forgeworld to pick it up.

It's sad that mindless trash like AOS can become the staple, but I guess thats just humanity for you.

I am still holding out hope that the 4 pages of rules is just us beta testing, The rules as they are now ( I cant speak for GHB) are just garbage. You can play a bare bones game but gawd help you if there is any question, there is really only 2 pages of vague rules.The fluff is also trash, I expect that drivel from someone like mike mearls, but GW has a stable of brilliance to draw from and this is what they come up with?? on a positive note though, it is a fun little game, its not great, its not even good. but if you have little time and nothing better to play, go for it.....hopefully GW will do some more to right the ship and make a more effective rules set. There is a lot of good things to build from with AoS. Personally I prefer to play it in an old world setting ( I think with a more streamlined ruleset like AoS and the fluff of the old world they could do wonders)

However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.

Yes, it is interesting.

I wonder if they keep track of these things somehow.

For example, I still purchase WFB mini's to complete the armies that I already have. Recently I bought a Wood Elf army and picked up Kurnous Hunters to use as Treekin, but I also bought square bases on the online store to mount them on. Maybe they are looking at how many people still purchase square bases.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.

Yes, it is interesting.

I wonder if they keep track of these things somehow.

For example, I still purchase WFB mini's to complete the armies that I already have. Recently I bought a Wood Elf army and picked up Kurnous Hunters to use as Treekin, but I also bought square bases on the online store to mount them on. Maybe they are looking at how many people still purchase square bases.

Well I am going to be interested what they will bring back in the MADE TO ORDER event for Fantasy. Also, if those models will have square bases.

We may never see true numbers of what the sales of AoS vs WHFB..
Not seeing a back petal.. but maybe a release of electronic books where you could play
the game without them having to print up any kind of books..
But I was shocked as everyone when they announced the latest box set would
have both types of bases.

But as a group we can say what our local is doing and kind of judge it that way...

We can say it is either
Strong.. more than before
Same.. about the same as before
Weak.. less than before
Dead.. see nothing going on

The 3 major St Louis shops that sales GW is..
Fantasy Shop St Charles. Dead.. Not seen a game of AoS.. 40k yes..
Game Nite Weak.. Some games but not like previous editions
Fantasy Books Fairview Hts Same.. store really pushes the game as much as 40k

We do have a games workshop store.. but most has drank the kool aid and speaking of WHFB is heresy

We now have a face book AoS group but not very active..

So average here is weak.. but growing.. Games Workshop has some nice fantasy figures.. if the game was great
they would no problem getting and staying number one in sales..

GW is not going back, remember the thought process of GW in regards to fantasy was two things:

1) Totally revamp the game into something new
2) Cancel Fantasy entirely

So they went with 1 and it seems to be working for them. Frankly the new marketing scheme GW is using now is far more efficient at just selling models then Fantasy ever was. I see no reason for GW to change course, especially since it seems to be working.

and this comes from a guy who has no particular love of AoS.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

laughing stock that the lore is

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

Do I need to point out the irony? A god hellbent on destroying chaos making a deal with chaos. And how, pray tell, would Slaanesh bring back Sigmar in time? There's bad ideas but then there's this.

Also, Sigmar DID lose badly in the current setting, losing armies hardcore and 7 out of 8 of the realms all while his pantheon desintegrated. It's called the Age of Chaos and it has already happened. He ain't back pedaling, not when considering he's poured so much effort into it. Slaanesh is trapped so he/she/it/shlergn can't do anything.

The States aren't the center of the universe. In Europe it's doing a lot better. And even then your PoV seems to be skewed considering the data others bring.

Long story short: no, they ain't going back. More than anything the bases must be a thing of GW finally noticing 9th age and seeing it as a potential source of income by grabbing disenfranchised fans that will play a different ruleset all while buying their minis.

GW will not backpedal on AoS because AoS has been a success.

GW have stated in this year's financial report that AoS is selling more than WHFB has for the past few years. Not only that but even Hastings, longtime AoS hater and source of the "AoS isn't selling" rumors, now admits that AoS is selling better than WHFB had been. Here's the quote below:

"I have never attacked anyone for saying AoS was doing well, simply said that my sources at that time said it was not. It has now improved to a point where last I heard sales of AoS products are at a better level than WFB prior to end times (which saw a huge spike)."

Source: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/warofsigmar/war_of_sigmar_rumors_and_rules_for_age_of_sigmar_3365/#comment-3034675724

Haha, I think that's the most AoS' i've ever seen in one place.

Do I need to point out the irony? A god hellbent on destroying chaos making a deal with chaos. And how, pray tell, would Slaanesh bring back Sigmar in time? There's bad ideas but then there's this. 

Meh, he was just making something off the top of his head. I've read worse in that Endhammer fanfic. (Seriously, retcon 6th edition Bretonnia!?)

I think he chose Slaanesh(as Tzeentch would've been better)since the Anti-AoS crowd use the rumor of it's demise for a PG setting as a rally point. Which of course is all hog-wash if anyone actually looks into the setting.

The States aren't the center of the universe. In Europe it's doing a lot better. And even then your PoV seems to be skewed considering the data others bring. 

To be fair, he did say he might be wrong about how it's doing outside his area.

But yeah, going into a online debate with only local data to back you up is a risky move.

Long story short: no, they ain't going back. More than anything the bases must be a thing of GW finally noticing 9th age and seeing it as a potential source of income by grabbing disenfranchised fans that will play a different ruleset all while buying their minis.

I personally think it's just that the bases already had holes for the models in them so GW's options were re-use them or throw them all away.

Was a nice PR move all the same.

In my city AOS is doing well at the local GW. We have 25 people in our AOS campaign.

In the other couple FLGS stores, it might as not even exist. If you ask any of those guys how AOS is doing they will tell you no one plays it in our city, even though there is a huge AOS campaign at the GW. Because to them it might as well not exist.

This is why anecdotal evidence is worthless.

The sales will drive if AOS is continued.

Not a single person here knows the sales figures of AOS or can use the sales figures of AOS to support their claims because... you simply do not know.

Now based off of anecdotal evidence from GW managers that I know, its selling exponentially better than whfb ever did. Based off of game store managers I know, even the stores where it doesn't sell at all, neither did WHFB. Everyone already had an army. If they didn't have an army, they'd go on ebay and get it for pennies on the dollar. No one bought new fantasy models. (yes no one is an exaggeration... few people did to warrant its continued existence)

Thats why AOS happened. No I don't think its going back to whfb. No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

Personal conjecture: thank god.

I could see them backpeddle to the lore, the lore of AoS is its biggest weakness IMO. The setting is awful and retconned alot of old world. rules wise nope, model wise nope. When I say AoS is doing poorly or nonexistant here, its from the perspective of someone actually looking for a game. GW sucks, thats just how it is, tiny, 2 "tables" to play on (they are 4x4) and usually crowded with 40k players, no room to breathe let alone hold any "event" but everywhere else you go in town its either x-wing or warmahordes (I hate them both, but locally they are kicking gw's arse)

Yeah. Our GW is small too. We have three 6x4 tables, and we can reserve them but its nothing like an LGS that has a lot of gaming room.

Our gaming is a lot of xwing as well. Warmachine is really not very well represented at all which surprises me considering how competitive my region tends to be.

I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

Did you start in 6th? I never had a hard time getting a game in during that time. It was a true renaissance for WFB, and the ridiculous ASR power creep killed it dead.

I am utterly delighted to find that the rumours are true.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Age-of-Sigmar-Spire-of-Dawn-ENG

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age.

I was a little despondent after the necromancer character sprue was redone to omit the square base, when it was just cheaper and simpler to take that perfectly normal and modern sculpt and just add a round base. There evidently was an initial move to only support fantasy as AoS like it or not. However now perhaps some sane heads have prevailed.




Allowing for the cost of replacing a metal tool for plastic miniatures. Remaking the above perfectly servicable necromancer miniature just to get rid of the square base on the sprue is pointless.

The other interpretation of Spire of Dawn including square bases is that when they opened the IoB boxes to move the contents over the bases were already in the box, and perhaps more importantly the IoB set requires slotted cavalry bases (which don't exist as ovals) and a number of bespoke bases (the Rat Ogor bases have holes in them for the pegs to slot into).

If we see future kits coming with both types then we might be able to suggest the legacy/9th/KoW crowd are buying significantly.

^This and as I said before, the bases are custom made for the models already. Literally nothing else for them but re-used with the box or thrown away.

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age. 

Now you see, this is why appeasing the old guard is such a double edged blade for the fandom.

On one hand it's great to see older fans get what they asked as they deserve to be thrown a bone. On the other hand every nod to them is blown out of proportion and turned into a AoS is failing gloat.

This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to eachother as we argue over the success of our games.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.

As do I.

I'm hoping the Free People get a similar treatment with the other gods. Tyrion worshipping knights would be epic!

 Orlanth wrote:
I am utterly delighted to find that the rumours are true.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Age-of-Sigmar-Spire-of-Dawn-ENG

Round and square bases included.

Yet all the minis are pictured on round bases. And they've consistently said your choice of base shape doesn't matter. I see the inclusion of square bases as their opportunity to dump off a ton of old stock. Probably cheaper than recycling them and less wasteful than tossing them out. Until either of our schools of thought are definitively proven wrong, we won't know.

 Orlanth wrote:

GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age.

Unprovable, and I seriously think people are over estimating the popularity of those systems. On Facebook, I am subscribed to an unofficial Age of Sigmar fan page that has almost double the followers of the official 9th Age page, a little over 4K to almost 8K. And the official AoS page, 6 times larger at almost 24K.

Not knocking either system that you mention, but I think a lot of folks overstate the size/power of their chosen system. It happens on all sides, to be fair. Confirmation bias, I think it's called.

And I realize using a Facebook followers count isn't exactly a scientific method, but in today's world of widespread social media usage, it can be indicative of certain trends.

 Orlanth wrote:
There evidently was an initial move to only support fantasy as AoS like it or not. However now perhaps some sane heads have prevailed.

We'll see when a kit, barring the repackaged ones, is released that could be retroactively used for WHFB. Aside from Bloodreavers, and the melee variants of the Kurnoth Hunters, we've gotten none. You could maybe proxy a few other kits as something close to a unit from the defunct WHFB units, but by a large margin it's all AoS, all the time. The Disciples of Tzeentch release, from what's been pictured, only continue that trend. Sure, a few of the units can be proxied as Marauders or Bestigor, but they have optional build that aren't retroactive.

And speaking of the Disciples of Tzeentch, that release will be the real litmus test on the whole "square base" debate. One way or the other it will get settled!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

So yeah, what about we talk on kurnoth's? Do I get a ranged weapon that is powerful or do I get one of two meelee weapons, one with more attacks and more consistent damage or another one that has less attacks, random damage, but more range, rend and potential damage? Do I want them to perform static support or

Or hell, let's go to the basics, the state troops: do I give them swords and shields, thus making them a defensive unit, do I give them spears and thus I give them the ability to attack in two rows, thus favoring massed squads, do I give them halberds and thus give them rend and the ability to counter lightly armored hordes (skelletons being the prime example). Do I take them in this formation or use the general's ability for making them a better roadblock because it will take a lot of effort to shift a 30 man blob that will be hitting and wounding on 3+ and make a crapload of dices, all while not running away most of the time, since you may have taken them on their batallion that lets them ignore fleeing models on 1-2 and they can re-roll it since they are order.

Hell, your argument even falls flat once you consider things proper instead of making a strawman: do I give two weapons or a shield? Do I get a foot-celestant or a castellant/relictor? The first one will be a powerful meelee unit for what is a basic unit, hitting on a 2+ re-rollable and wounding mayhaps on a 3+. The latter will be for bunkering down as they'll have, in cover and with a castellant, a 2++ re-rollable. plop in a relictor and you have a top-denial unit for playing the blood and glory scenario (yeah, we should talk about the fact that your standard game is more than kill-them-all, unlike fantasy's standard format) as they'll require obnoxious amount of firepower to take down.

Such trivial decissions.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes.

Sign me back up for that.

 auticus wrote:
Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes.

Sign me back up for that.

Don't forget the bickering for 5 solid minutes regarding how you should play x rule. Happened at least once per game, or so the veteran folks of my LGS say. And it's not much of a stretch considering that it does happen on 40k. Good stuff it sounds.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling.

AoS sells better both model and novel wise than WFB did for quite some time.

 reds8n wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling.

AoS sells better both model and novel wise than WFB did for quite some time.

The novel part is just Black Library propangada: I still see less then 400 copies of limited edition "Gates of Azyr" books ... Not to mention that you can still buy most of the limited edition stuff.

I'm going off of the comments by people who write for BL who have said that their books are higher selling.

I think the limited edition books in general are selling less/less quickly -- there's HH ones left at times now when they'd be gone in minutes when they first popped up.

I've certainly bought less


tbf some of it is also people being a bit mroe aware that these stories will be available elsewhere, in some format, at some point too.

I think the AoS crowd is far more e-format dominated both with regards to rules and background.

Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

 Genoside07 wrote:
Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

Except they are saying outright: it's selling more than fantasy did a few years prior.

Here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players whine about anything. For hell's sake, we have people whinning about chaos space marines being op,

 reds8n wrote:
I'm going off of the comments by people who write for BL who have said that their books are higher selling.

I think the limited edition books in general are selling less/less quickly -- there's HH ones left at times now when they'd be gone in minutes when they first popped up.

I've certainly bought less


tbf some of it is also people being a bit mroe aware that these stories will be available elsewhere, in some format, at some point too.

I think the AoS crowd is far more e-format dominated both with regards to rules and background.

If this is the case it makes sense because the normal versions of the books cost like 7-10 pounds. Majority of people would spend that much over 25+ pounds for a book.

For me it's books> digital. Even if it's more expensive. (If mail ordering $150 Wfb rpg books didn't stop, nothing will. )

Even then, I don't have interest in getting limited edition stuff. Not really sure of the point of it except grabbing it before it's gone which is really at odds with my reading style which is taking a slow journey through the lore and enjoying it at leisure.

Maybe it's just me being silly, though...

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

Except they are saying outright: it's selling more than fantasy did a few years prior.

Here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players whine about anything. For hell's sake, we have people whinning about chaos space marines being op,

There was a topic about Ork's being OP, wrap your head about that.

Or warlocks being broken. fething warlocks, THE worst HQ on the eldar army, which would be mediocre in other armies barring the bottom barrel.

 Just Tony wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

Did you start in 6th? I never had a hard time getting a game in during that time. It was a true renaissance for WFB, and the ridiculous ASR power creep killed it dead.

Yeah, I started in 6th, it was glorious haha. It was pretty easy to get a game in for a while. Than Dakka Dakka the brick and mortar store swapped hands than got renamed and closed, along with my hopes of a reliable Fantasy group.

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy. Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging. So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs? If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

As opposed to spending half the time looking through your warscroll now because there's no such thing as standardized wargear anymore. Everything is a special snowflake with it's own rules that changes from unit to unit. How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes

I can't help it if you need to look up fairly simple rules constantly. AOS currently has way more special rules than Fantasy ever did just by virtue of not having a complete list of universal special rules built right into the core mechanics. Now everything needs it's own warscroll just to know what it does as opposed to a single rulebook. Granted there were additional special rules given to each army in it's own army book, but not that many.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

What strawman? I just pointed out about half of the options in the game right there. Most of them are redundant, giving the illusion of choice. The dumbing down of the rules has devolved the game down to simple Hammer and Anvil. The nuance is gone.

You want to like AOS thats fine. But saying it's a well thought out and tactical game is ridiculous.

Baron Klatz wrote:
^This and as I said before, the bases are custom made for the models already. Literally nothing else for them but re-used with the box or thrown away.

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age. 

Now you see, this is why appeasing the old guard is such a double edged blade for the fandom.

On one hand it's great to see older fans get what they asked as they deserve to be thrown a bone. On the other hand every nod to them is blown out of proportion and turned into a AoS is failing gloat.

This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to eachother as we argue over the success of our games.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.

As do I.

I'm hoping the Free People get a similar treatment with the other gods. Tyrion worshipping knights would be epic!

The way I see it, packing things with rounds AND squares caters to both, and doesn't leave one group out in the cold. If they were smart they'd move 8th (Since despite my dreams I know they would never use 6th) to either digital only or small online exclusive print runs, then include square bases in each box just to cater. It wouldn't even take much effort to do a small one page PDF of rules for units that are AOS exclusive to port them over. I realize copyright hargleblargle, but it would go a long way to getting sales going. Kind of like when the daemon boxes came with both bases, it catered to 40K and WFB at the same time, now we have a precedent to do the same. Run with it, GW.

That would've been great but once again, the amount of "the squares are the only reason it sells!" from the old guard would've put a sour taste in my mouth from what should've been a good compromise.

Seriously, I see so many 9th age armies using other company models and 8.5 using Ebay to get OOP models from older editions that I just can't understand this claim of them holding GW's fantasy sells up instead of all the AoS fans that keep joining up.

Yeah, I started in 6th, it was glorious haha. It was pretty easy to get a game in for a while. Than Dakka Dakka the brick and mortar store swapped hands than got renamed and closed, along with my hopes of a reliable Fantasy group.

Ah, unfortunately I know that feeling. My local comic store went under new management some time ago and it's been a massive downgrade from the wall to wall comic books and tabletop player hordes that it once was.

 Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO. 

Works for Total War Warhammer.

Also, wasn't that how Warmaster was or did I overlook. Something?

 How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous. 

Alot of those clarifications were on obvious things and it was only so many pages because it was so spread out that it was a few small faqs per page.

If you condensed it down it'd only be four pages long as well.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game. 

Awesome!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy. Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging. So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs? If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

As opposed to spending half the time looking through your warscroll now because there's no such thing as standardized wargear anymore. Everything is a special snowflake with it's own rules that changes from unit to unit. How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes

I can't help it if you need to look up fairly simple rules constantly. AOS currently has way more special rules than Fantasy ever did just by virtue of not having a complete list of universal special rules built right into the core mechanics. Now everything needs it's own warscroll just to know what it does as opposed to a single rulebook. Granted there were additional special rules given to each army in it's own army book, but not that many.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

What strawman? I just pointed out about half of the options in the game right there. Most of them are redundant, giving the illusion of choice. The dumbing down of the rules has devolved the game down to simple Hammer and Anvil. The nuance is gone.

You want to like AOS thats fine. But saying it's a well thought out and tactical game is ridiculous.

You're making a strawman. Each meelee weapon has 5 characteristics, you're only bothering to list 2 of them. And you clearly haven't played AoS. Killing stuff doesn't win you matched play. You need objectives and meeting the requirements. If you think that there's no nuance/hard choice in being forced to deploy a third of your force per turn, or having to split your army in two, aren't hard choices and don't have any nuance, I'm done.

And seriously, you're comparing searching through one of the six-seven downloaded pages on your mobile phone or one of your six-seven printed pages with finding something in one of 3-4 books?

Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.

Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.

Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

I just use cards, easy to reference during a game.

But yeah neither sides going to budge, we've got the AoS fan and the AoS hater. Not like either is going to budge.

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy.

Yep!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

I thought the same at first, but I got the sense that they want characters to be something that you have to be mindful of in regards to where you place/move them, rather than just using units as meatshields for them to bus your characters around.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging.

Yep! And so did Fantasy, for the latter part(bolded) of the statement!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs?

Not quite, as its a different set of rules. There are variations of those tactics in AoS, to some degree though.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

The statement of yours that I quoted at the top of the page reduced AoS games down to hit and wound rolls, as if the game is a dice based version of Rock'em Sock'em Robots where the armies automatically meet up in the center and roll off to see who wins. There are different phases to the game that do in fact require "tough decisions", as you said, regarding deployment, shooting, movement, combat priority, and planning as best you can for a variety of things that are out of your control.

There are indeed tactics, strategies and maneuver to this game. Maybe not to your liking, but they are there. You can call them "simple" or "illiusions" if it makes you feel better, though!

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

So are "move the goalposts" and "strawman" your go-to comments when you don't have a legitimate argument except "I like what you don't like"? When it comes down to it, WFB could be scaled down to 4 pages during 6th. I usually carried the printed cheat sheet that came in White Dwarf and the cheat sheet for the magic phase and lores together wedged into my army book's summary page. That was all I needed unless I had magic items, which were written on my list, OR I used them so much I didn't need to reference them. So once again, "EPIC MASSIVE TEDIOUS SIZESESESESES!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!!!!!!!!!" just doesn't hold up, unless you are too lazy to do a little preparation beforehand, like ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME BEFORE DECIDING TO BUY OUR FIRST MODEL. Notice no goalposts moved, and no strawmen appear. Also, I hate both football AND scarecrows...

If everyone could calm down with their posting that'd be great. This is about toy soldiers, chill people

Baron Klatz wrote:


This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to each other as we argue over the success of our games.

Baron this is already reality.

Today I got called an assblasted fantasy player, who plays a boring game in his toxic, vile little enclaves. This started, when I asked where are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

This is from a white knight AoS player. Its not Shrinos , he is an okay dude

GW should make a entry skirmish game ( AoS style ), which can lead to a WHFB, if you want. By the way folks is the necromancer ( not Kemmler ) on sale again? Its a great mini.

 Just Tony wrote:
during 6th.

But not for 8th. 6th edition was great, but that was then. I remember playing Skaven during 8th, and the FAQ and Errata you needed was incredibly long. Not to mention my rulebook FAQ/Errata (all of which I had on me, in addition to my rulebook). And if you played in tournaments, you needed all of these on hand for reference. Definitely not 4 pages. I ended up switching to Dwarves and Tomb Kings instead.

That being said, 8th wasn't a terribly bloated ruleset imo, compared to others (I'm looking at you, Flames of War). The generic special rules in the main brb applied to most stuff, and all the unit special rules included in the appropriate bestiary entry (much like the current battletome/warscroll) system. I think we can all agree that it was model count that killed WHFB more than anything else. When a box of core troops constitutes about half of a unit (and not even a full half, for the 16 man kits), it definitely creates a barrier of entry and can be somewhat counter intuitive. And with the price increase of some units, making 30-40 man units wasn't always cheap. AoS definitely won't fit the bill for people who enjoyed WHFB's formation-oriented gameplay, and I think that in that regard it's a poor substitute. But AoS as it is fills a different niche for me, and there are definitely alternatives available.

But as to the OP's question? They just announced a new book for AoS (Disciples of Tzeentch) and have revealed some of the new releases we're going to see over the course of the next coming months. So no, I don't think they'll backpedal the rules or background.

Lord Kragan wrote:


Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal.

You realize that the summary of the 8th edition rules are on 4 pages....

herjan1987 wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:


This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to each other as we argue over the success of our games.

Baron this is already reality.

Today I got called a assblasted fantasy player, who plays a boring game in his toxic, vile little enclaves. This started, when I asked where are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

This is from a white knight AoS player. Its not Shrinos , he is an okay dude

GW should make a entry skirmish game ( AoS style ), which can lead to a WHFB, if you want. By the way folks is the necromancer ( not Kemmler ) on sale again? Its a great mini.

That's terrible! It really should be AN assblasted fantasy player.

Joyboozer wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:


This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to each other as we argue over the success of our games.

Baron this is already reality.

Today I got called an assblasted fantasy player, who plays a boring game in his toxic, vile little enclaves. This started, when I asked where are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

This is from a white knight AoS player. Its not Shrinos , he is an okay dude

GW should make a entry skirmish game ( AoS style ), which can lead to a WHFB, if you want. By the way folks is the necromancer ( not Kemmler ) on sale again? Its a great mini.

That's terrible! It really should be AN assblasted fantasy player.

English is not my native language , but thanks for the hint.

Baron Klatz wrote:

Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO. 

Works for Total War Warhammer.
Also, wasn't that how Warmaster was or did I overlook. Something?

Kings of War does the same, and that's a pretty much universally well regarded ruleset where move and manoeuvre is king. Plenty of other games as well. Pretty sure it's just a design choice that simply differs from WHFB and 40k. I guess if you may not have a broader experience the mechanic seems weird and therefore some might want to lash out at it since it's attached to AoS?

@Joyboozer, Have to exalt good grammer.

@Herjan, Really sorry that happened to you. Fellow hobbyists should be more courteous to one another. (Sadly, internet. -_-*)

Not sure why he got onto you about asking about those factions, though. They're still GW's property and they can still resurrect them as new AoS factions. Unless you pressed the issue there's really nothing to get upset about.

Tomb kings already got two shout-outs in the fluff and I think I saw a Bretonnia shout-out with the Volpone kingdom which has (or rather had) a large knight army and had a sacred river.

Wasn't the entry skirmish game for Wfb basically Mordheim? There was also skirmish scenarios in the BRB like a hero last stand, too bad that stuff never caught on.

Can't say I wouldn't like more easy to get into games from GW, though.

(* I mean, the internet's toxic levels are on the uprise these days. Just look at the new Bretonnia announcement on Reddit. The top is good and informational but the bottom is open season on Bretonnia and lewd comments..

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/5jqgk5/eleventh_day_of_festag/ )

herjan1987 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:


Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal.

You realize that the summary of the 8th edition rules are on 4 pages....

Yes, and all the special rules too, aren't they? Which is my exact point, but nice job missing it. And it's not even 10 pages, that's accounting having a huge-ass image occupying most of it. My army literally takes two pages worth of rules, and I use almost every unit in my rooster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

So are "move the goalposts" and "strawman" your go-to comments when you don't have a legitimate argument except "I like what you don't like"? When it comes down to it, WFB could be scaled down to 4 pages during 6th. I usually carried the printed cheat sheet that came in White Dwarf and the cheat sheet for the magic phase and lores together wedged into my army book's summary page. That was all I needed unless I had magic items, which were written on my list, OR I used them so much I didn't need to reference them. So once again, "EPIC MASSIVE TEDIOUS SIZESESESESES!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!!!!!!!!!" just doesn't hold up, unless you are too lazy to do a little preparation beforehand, like ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME BEFORE DECIDING TO BUY OUR FIRST MODEL. Notice no goalposts moved, and no strawmen appear. Also, I hate both football AND scarecrows...

So are "you're biased" and "you don't have legitimate arguments" your go to argment when you don't have any actual argument either? Because this is like the fourth fifth time you've used both of those lines (accounting the previous comment) in the last two discussions we've had. Compare me using mtG ONCE and strawman TWICE, thrice if you want to count the time I explain why I'm calling him so, the latter on a legitimate case, on all these conversations. Do I need to point out your go-to argument from the previous discussio:"you're not fantasy related, you shouldn't comment!" or your fallacy of "I'm sure you'd hate it to have haters on your forums! (even though it was a spite-thread towards AoS)". Marvelous and rock solid arguments, mind you.

WHFB's basic rules could be scaled down to 4 pages. But WHFB had a lot more rules than the core ones as well and you know it, which you needed to hunt down through the books and go write yourself instead of doing a simple printing or bringing in your tablet without doing ANY prep-work. And not everyone does this. I've met a ton of 40k players that just listed what they brought and relied on the rulebook for getting the rules, fantasy would be hardly different. So ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME is not the truth and I've seen it on other game systems.

herjan1987 wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:


This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to each other as we argue over the success of our games.

Baron this is already reality.

Today I got called an assblasted fantasy player, who plays a boring game in his toxic, vile little enclaves. This started, when I asked where are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

This is from a white knight AoS player. Its not Shrinos , he is an okay dude

GW should make a entry skirmish game ( AoS style ), which can lead to a WHFB, if you want. By the way folks is the necromancer ( not Kemmler ) on sale again? Its a great mini.

*sigh* This hobby has people like that unfortunately no one should be insulted like that for asking such a question.

 shinros wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:


This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to each other as we argue over the success of our games.

Baron this is already reality.

Today I got called an assblasted fantasy player, who plays a boring game in his toxic, vile little enclaves. This started, when I asked where are Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

This is from a white knight AoS player. Its not Shrinos , he is an okay dude

GW should make a entry skirmish game ( AoS style ), which can lead to a WHFB, if you want. By the way folks is the necromancer ( not Kemmler ) on sale again? Its a great mini.

*sigh* This hobby has people like that unfortunately no one should be insulted like that for asking such a question.

Nyeh, every body has its donkey-cave, and communities are but a giant body made of many people. Personally this kind of stuff should be ignored expediently, like that time I got called a Sigmatard and a beaten wife-shill. Or that time I got called a mass cigarette-got when debating a haloite. Or...

I get into many heated discussions.

 Azazelx wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:

Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO. 

Works for Total War Warhammer.
Also, wasn't that how Warmaster was or did I overlook. Something?

Kings of War does the same, and that's a pretty much universally well regarded ruleset where move and manoeuvre is king. Plenty of other games as well. Pretty sure it's just a design choice that simply differs from WHFB and 40k. I guess if you may not have a broader experience the mechanic seems weird and therefore some might want to lash out at it since it's attached to AoS?

Hero units in Total War Warhammer are on a different order of magnitude to those in WHFB.

Lord Kragan wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:


Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal.

You realize that the summary of the 8th edition rules are on 4 pages....

Yes, and all the special rules too, aren't they? Which is my exact point, but nice job missing it. And it's not even 10 pages, that's accounting having a huge-ass image occupying most of it. My army literally takes two pages worth of rules, and I use almost every unit in my rooster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

So are "move the goalposts" and "strawman" your go-to comments when you don't have a legitimate argument except "I like what you don't like"? When it comes down to it, WFB could be scaled down to 4 pages during 6th. I usually carried the printed cheat sheet that came in White Dwarf and the cheat sheet for the magic phase and lores together wedged into my army book's summary page. That was all I needed unless I had magic items, which were written on my list, OR I used them so much I didn't need to reference them. So once again, "EPIC MASSIVE TEDIOUS SIZESESESESES!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!!!!!!!!!" just doesn't hold up, unless you are too lazy to do a little preparation beforehand, like ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME BEFORE DECIDING TO BUY OUR FIRST MODEL. Notice no goalposts moved, and no strawmen appear. Also, I hate both football AND scarecrows...

So are "you're biased" and "you don't have legitimate arguments" your go to argment when you don't have any actual argument either? Because this is like the fourth fifth time you've used both of those lines (accounting the previous comment) in the last two discussions we've had. Compare me using mtG ONCE and strawman TWICE, thrice if you want to count the time I explain why I'm calling him so, the latter on a legitimate case, on all these conversations. Do I need to point out your go-to argument from the previous discussio:"you're not fantasy related, you shouldn't comment!" or your fallacy of "I'm sure you'd hate it to have haters on your forums! (even though it was a spite-thread towards AoS)". Marvelous and rock solid arguments, mind you.

WHFB's basic rules could be scaled down to 4 pages. But WHFB had a lot more rules than the core ones as well and you know it, which you needed to hunt down through the books and go write yourself instead of doing a simple printing or bringing in your tablet without doing ANY prep-work. And not everyone does this. I've met a ton of 40k players that just listed what they brought and relied on the rulebook for getting the rules, fantasy would be hardly different. So ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME is not the truth and I've seen it on other game systems.

Unless someone is a complete rockhead, they can pretty much memorize the special rules without having to flit through the book for hours on end during one combat phase. You are aware of this, and you are also aware that AOS has more rules than just the 4 pages. Between the GHB, the data cards for the units themselves, AND any FAQ's or materials exclusive to one of the books, you have just as much to cycle through, especially with alll the interworking synergies (Yep, still vomit a little just typing that word...) of the units. Yet I'm betting you don't have to flip through your rolodex of info. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not one of those rockheads who can't memorize the most widely used rules after two games. Don't prove me wrong.

You do know that people can't play regularly always, don't you? I've met people who would spend a few weeks between games because of their schedule. Playing so sporadically will make you rusty as you'll barely remember the rules, since you've done a lot of other stuff. It doesn't need a morrron to not remember something properly if you use the tools infrequently.

Okay, upon saying that quote of yours of vomiting upon hearing sinergies, I'm realizing that you're either a) the worst fantasy player ever because you just ram your units individually without a care and wihtout rhime or thought for anything else or b) just in plain self-denial. Because I just needed one look at 1d4chan and reading this:

Lore Attribute: Wildheart: Basically, your spells are easier to cast at cavalry, warbeasts or Beastmen.

To find out that there's sinergies on fantasy as there will be more reliable magic on . And that IS sinergy: x is more powerful because of Y, and in turn, x improves Y, making the whole better than the sum of its parts.

The Empire's master engineer is another example, as he allows re-rolls to artillery. That means bring in great utility to artillery lists and crap to infantry hordes. That's unit specific sinergy.

Fantasy had them too. STOP MAKING AN ACT AND BEING DESINGENOUS. And unlike you I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt because you've shown that same act several times.

Lord Kragan wrote:
You do know that people can't play regularly always, don't you? I've met people who would spend a few weeks between games because of their schedule. Playing so sporadically will make you rusty as you'll barely remember the rules, since you've done a lot of other stuff. It doesn't need a morrron to not remember something properly if you use the tools infrequently.

Okay, upon saying that quote of yours of vomiting upon hearing sinergies, I'm realizing that you're either a) the worst fantasy player ever because you just ram your units individually without a care and wihtout rhime or thought for anything else or b) just in plain self-denial. Because I just needed one look at 1d4chan and reading this:

Lore Attribute: Wildheart: Basically, your spells are easier to cast at cavalry, warbeasts or Beastmen.

To find out that there's sinergies on fantasy as there will be more reliable magic on . And that IS sinergy: x is more powerful because of Y, and in turn, x improves Y, making the whole better than the sum of its parts.

The Empire's master engineer is another example, as he allows re-rolls to artillery. That means bring in great utility to artillery lists and crap to infantry hordes. That's unit specific sinergy.

Fantasy had them too. STOP MAKING AN ACT AND BEING DESINGENOUS. And unlike you I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt because you've shown that same act several times.

Lord Kargan I think that Just Tony only points out thats he doesnt like that everything is sinergized. Quite frankly over time it will make the game even complicated then WHFB ever was ( maybe its already is more comlicated ). Its also a worht point out that Just Tony plays mostly 6th edition of Warhammer Fantasy, where any unit sinergys back then?

herjan1987 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
You do know that people can't play regularly always, don't you? I've met people who would spend a few weeks between games because of their schedule. Playing so sporadically will make you rusty as you'll barely remember the rules, since you've done a lot of other stuff. It doesn't need a morrron to not remember something properly if you use the tools infrequently.

Okay, upon saying that quote of yours of vomiting upon hearing sinergies, I'm realizing that you're either a) the worst fantasy player ever because you just ram your units individually without a care and wihtout rhime or thought for anything else or b) just in plain self-denial. Because I just needed one look at 1d4chan and reading this:

Lore Attribute: Wildheart: Basically, your spells are easier to cast at cavalry, warbeasts or Beastmen.

To find out that there's sinergies on fantasy as there will be more reliable magic on . And that IS sinergy: x is more powerful because of Y, and in turn, x improves Y, making the whole better than the sum of its parts.

The Empire's master engineer is another example, as he allows re-rolls to artillery. That means bring in great utility to artillery lists and crap to infantry hordes. That's unit specific sinergy.

Fantasy had them too. STOP MAKING AN ACT AND BEING DESINGENOUS. And unlike you I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt because you've shown that same act several times.

Lord Kargan I think that Just Tony only points out thats he doesnt like that everything is sinergized. Quite frankly over time it will make the game even complicated then WHFB ever was ( maybe its already is more comlicated ). Its also a worht point out that Just Tony plays mostly 6th edition of Warhammer Fantasy, where any unit sinergys back then?

Okay, point taken and my bad (considering that info is 8th ed based). Didn't remember that and it's my mistake. Sorry.

As for being more complicated NOW I honestly doubt it. My games at 2000pts clock in at roughly 2 hours always, and most of those that played old 8th ed say it took at least twice as that and an aspirin to finish a similar sized game of fantasy. That's something that I've heard in all the LGS's I've gone to at least once, and I've travelled a lot this year, alongside my army.

In the future? Well, that's talke for another day I have no hurry in finding out. I have enough as it is to paint my army of hulking hooligans.

Herjan got it right, and also that with what little synergies (...) that were in 8th, they were amped up beyond belief in AOS, making it feel like a cross between WM/H and M:TG. THAT is why I don't like it.

Haha! I found it!

This is the video that I refering to when I was talking about that AoS is more complex, then WHFB 8th edition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlsQRKiACL0

H R marks out that each the removal of universal special rules, which where are the special rules that where in 8th edition main rulebook, are now spread out into the warscrolls under different names. ( this is at around 7 minute mark, but the whole video is interesting enough to watch! ).

[quote=
Okay, upon saying that quote of yours of vomiting upon hearing sinergies, I'm realizing that you're either a) the worst fantasy player ever because you just ram your units individually without a care and wihtout rhime or thought for anything else or b) just in plain self-denial. Because I just needed one look at 1d4chan and reading this:
Lore Attribute: Wildheart: Basically, your spells are easier to cast at cavalry, warbeasts or Beastmen.
.

Yeah, stackable effects to me are way different than a +1 stat buff. And to be honest, whenever I see someone going on about the stackable synergy combos on here, I always picture M:TG players Aaron or Sean from the now-defunct Phoenix Rising in Ft. Wayne, IN saying "..and then I go infinite by turn 6."

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, stackable effects to me are way different than a +1 stat buff. And to be honest, whenever I see someone going on about the stackable synergy combos on here, I always picture M:TG players Aaron or Sean from the now-defunct Phoenix Rising in Ft. Wayne, IN saying "..and then I go infinite by turn 6."

When did Pheonix Rising go belly up? I am from Fort Wayne, but havent been back in a long time...are there still some decent stores?

I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

GW hasn't backpedaled on any change to any rulebook for a very long time, which is 95% of the problem (since they won't go back and errata rules mistakes they have to start designing new rules around broken books). I expect they'll start propping things up on top of the current AoS rules and make a hash of it.

You must remember that years ago EPIC was one of the top 3 games Games Workshop had.. They pulled a AoS on it (over simplified rules;etc) and the sales bottomed out.
So they just dropped the line..years later they tried a small attempt to bring the line back but most people move on to other games and rarely seen on any game tables anymore.

I think most of the sales for Age of Sigmar reasons is Warhammer needed to happen to that about any past gamer could see...

Lower prices (8th edition 10 count witch elves box set was $90 when released)
Lower model count (people needed 100+ models to play)
Easier way into game (you needed to buy close to $500 books and models to play)
Freedom of army choice (Forced unit types can be a bane to any game)

They could have done that clean up with Warhammer but decide there was to many things that needed copyright to keep.

Just felt like they are erasing things to shape the game into a version of game they can sue if people get to close to it.
And warhammer was the only game without marines... and now it does..

 Just Tony wrote:
Herjan got it right, and also that with what little synergies (...) that were in 8th, they were amped up beyond belief in AOS, making it feel like a cross between WM/H and M:TG. THAT is why I don't like it.

Thats a fair assessment, and I agree that AOS is definitely a lot more combo-based. It definitely has a feel similar to WM/H.

I will also say the 100+ models needed for 8th edition is a bit of an exaggeration. Horde armies needed 100+ models. I played chaos, dark elves, and tomb kings. My armies averaged 55-60 models or so. The only armies I saw over 100 models were goblins and skaven. You could do it with empire too if you were going heavy on the state troop side of things, but none of our area did that; empire armies were typically mostly cavalry affairs backed by the council of light build.

I am going off what I had seen locally with the "Horde" rule allowed in any army, it required a unit to be 10 models wide to gain the ability and people played them at least three deep..
With the minimum requirement of three army units; there was Ninety models on the table before you saw anything else... That's where I got the 100+ model number..

But having to paint 50+ models is still not inviting to new players..

Lord Kragan wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
You do know that people can't play regularly always, don't you? I've met people who would spend a few weeks between games because of their schedule. Playing so sporadically will make you rusty as you'll barely remember the rules, since you've done a lot of other stuff. It doesn't need a morrron to not remember something properly if you use the tools infrequently.

Okay, upon saying that quote of yours of vomiting upon hearing sinergies, I'm realizing that you're either a) the worst fantasy player ever because you just ram your units individually without a care and wihtout rhime or thought for anything else or b) just in plain self-denial. Because I just needed one look at 1d4chan and reading this:

Lore Attribute: Wildheart: Basically, your spells are easier to cast at cavalry, warbeasts or Beastmen.

To find out that there's sinergies on fantasy as there will be more reliable magic on . And that IS sinergy: x is more powerful because of Y, and in turn, x improves Y, making the whole better than the sum of its parts.

The Empire's master engineer is another example, as he allows re-rolls to artillery. That means bring in great utility to artillery lists and crap to infantry hordes. That's unit specific sinergy.

Fantasy had them too. STOP MAKING AN ACT AND BEING DESINGENOUS. And unlike you I'm not giving the benefit of the doubt because you've shown that same act several times.

Lord Kargan I think that Just Tony only points out thats he doesnt like that everything is sinergized. Quite frankly over time it will make the game even complicated then WHFB ever was ( maybe its already is more comlicated ). Its also a worht point out that Just Tony plays mostly 6th edition of Warhammer Fantasy, where any unit sinergys back then?

Okay, point taken and my bad (considering that info is 8th ed based). Didn't remember that and it's my mistake. Sorry.

As for being more complicated NOW I honestly doubt it. My games at 2000pts clock in at roughly 2 hours always, and most of those that played old 8th ed say it took at least twice as that.

That's BS. 2:30h was standard tournament time for a 2.5K game.

Maybe on a casual game with lots of beer or on something like a 10K game you can get there.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I am going off what I had seen locally with the "Horde" rule allowed in any army, it required a unit to be 10 models wide to gain the ability and people played them at least three deep..
With the minimum requirement of three army units; there was Ninety models on the table before you saw anything else... That's where I got the 100+ model number..

But having to paint 50+ models is still not inviting to new players..

Yeah. I just see a lot of people claim that 8th edition games were 100-200 models on each side all the time, and that was rarely the case. There is still a sizable difference between having to paint say 100 models or 50-60. Some people don't want to paint even one model.

That the popular games are all shrinking to be 10-20 models makes me sad.

That's BS. 2:30h was standard tournament time for a 2.5K game.

Maybe on a casual game with lots of beer or on something like a 10K game you can get there.

Most people didn't play tournament-speed. The only people that could pull that off were heavy tournament players. THe vast majority of our community weren't tournament players and indeed a 2500 point game at our campaign days was 4-5 hours for years. The tournament guys would complain that 4-5 hours was way too much and that in real games (tournaments) you only had 2.5 hours. That of course was why they had a hard time recruiting new players into their tournaments... both because of the fast play and because of the patronizing and condescending tones about how 4-5 hours was way too much.

 auticus wrote:


Most people didn't play tournament-speed. The only people that could pull that off were heavy tournament players. THe vast majority of our community weren't tournament players and indeed a 2500 point game at our campaign days was 4-5 hours for years. The tournament guys would complain that 4-5 hours was way too much and that in real games (tournaments) you only had 2.5 hours. That of course was why they had a hard time recruiting new players into their tournaments... both because of the fast play and because of the patronizing and condescending tones about how 4-5 hours was way too much.

If you turned a 2.5K game into a 4-5h either you were checking rules at every step or were deliberately stalling it (like spending 10 minutes to decide which spell to cast, then another 5 on how many dice to use)

Sure any game, even extremely rules-light like X-wing can double usual time if you keep chit-chatting around mid-game which is great (we do that all the time at the club with beer and lots of people coming and going, the game is basically a background for social activity) but it should not count towards game length average. That assumes people are focused on the game and know their way around the rules.

Why would people stall in a game where there was no time limit? Stalling is only a thing in tournament games where you have a time limit. I was discussing campaign day games where there was no time limit.

Yes most casual non-tournament players had a hard time memorizing the rules bible that was whfb. As such, most casual players I have ever encountered in the decades of playing WHFB often had to reference the rules bible many times during the game, and as such, the average game of 2500 points with casual non-tournment players took 4-5 hours.

Our campaign day started at noon and often wrapped up around 6:00 - 7:00. The extra time in there not part of the 4-5 hours of the game were set up, etc and tear down.

You have to realize that the number of people that memorized the rules and were super fast were not the normal player. It may seem that they were if you are a tournament player surrounded by tournament players, but tournament players are not in my experience the norm.

In comparison, we can chit chat and goof off and still get a game of xwing in under an hour. The only games of whfb that I ever played in that were under three hours were tournament games. Most people I know have never done even one tournament though.

 auticus wrote:
Why would people stall in a game where there was no time limit? Stalling is only a thing in tournament games where you have a time limit. I was discussing campaign day games where there was no time limit.

Yes most casual non-tournament players had a hard time memorizing the rules bible that was whfb. As such, most casual players I have ever encountered in the decades of playing WHFB often had to reference the rules bible many times during the game, and as such, the average game of 2500 points with casual non-tournment players took 4-5 hours.

Our campaign day started at noon and often wrapped up around 6:00 - 7:00. The extra time in there not part of the 4-5 hours of the game were set up, etc and tear down.

You have to realize that the number of people that memorized the rules and were super fast were not the normal player. It may seem that they were if you are a tournament player surrounded by tournament players, but tournament players are not in my experience the norm.

In comparison, we can chit chat and goof off and still get a game of xwing in under an hour. The only games of whfb that I ever played in that were under three hours were tournament games. Most people I know have never done even one tournament though.

Those must be very one-sided games because tournament x-wing games run for 75 minutes and more often than not there are ships still on the mat at the end of the game.

WHFB was not more rules intensive than, say, Infinity or Flames of War, all of which could wrap a game in 2-2:30h. If your group couldn't (or wouldn't) do it that's ok, but any group that played with relative frequency had no problem doing so. Personally even if there's no time limit I'd rather play two 2:30 games than a 5h one unless we're talking silly one-offs like a 30K game, a 3v3v3 or a siege with narrative rules (which did take one or two full days to play)

Nope they weren't very one sided. Just stating that there are groups out there where the game didn't last two and a half hours.

My group isn't weird or strange, there have been dozens of polls on this topic that showed similar data.

We have guys here that are also like you that won't play games that last longer than a couple hours, and they didn't play in our campaign games for that reason, so the stance is understood.

From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

Well compared with WFB its a hack and slash game.

"Well compared with WFB".

After going as far as saying everyone agrees that there's no strategy, you can mindlessly shove units up the field and win by reaching CC. (Sounds like 7th edition DE/VC/DOC! ) It's kind of hard to try and play that off after insulting everyone right there.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
"Well compared with WFB".

After going as far as saying everyone agrees that there's no strategy, you can mindlessly shove units up the field and win by reaching CC. (Sounds like 7th edition DE/VC/DOC! ) It's kind of hard to try and play that off after insulting everyone right there.

How did i insult everyone?

All i said was to me it looks like WFB was more strategic then AoS is, If you mean by saying the everyone agrees AoS is not strategic if that came off as an insult my bad? Only strategy I have seen thus far is piling in combo units, i guess you could say activating this unit before that unit is strategic.

jouso wrote:

WHFB was not more rules intensive than, say, Infinity or Flames of War, all of which could wrap a game in 2-2:30h. If your group couldn't (or wouldn't) do it that's ok, but any group that played with relative frequency had no problem doing so. Personally even if there's no time limit I'd rather play two 2:30 games than a 5h one unless we're talking silly one-offs like a 30K game, a 3v3v3 or a siege with narrative rules (which did take one or two full days to play)

I've never really got the argument that WFB was too complicated and became bloated. Even back in 3rd/4th/5th edition there were plenty of rules that came up infrequently or slowed the game down so Empire War Wagon attacks where everybody had a different weapon, lapping round and even multiple types of psychology tests like cool, willpower rather than just leadership. I therefore think that this argument is looked at from the wrong perspective. It's not about that WFB has become more or less rule based I think it's societies approach to the world that has changed. There was less technology then, less distractions - you could spend hours reading and learning rules, there were no mobile phones, computers and so on to distract us. Computer games were basic and during my time with BBC machine could take two or three hours to load up. Compare that today when pretty much what you want for entertainment you can get instantly at the touch of the button. A rule book that takes several hours just to read through the core rules is no longer what many people will want to do. From this perspective AOS answers this with a very quick, less war gaming, but more casual computer game style of play.

As for which is selling better than another I don't really put truck in either argument, the sales strategy for both is different and comparing a game coming to the end of its life to a new one is just a bit silly. A better comparison would be how it's doing with the release of previous editions of WFB but were never likely to see this information.

I think the real weakness for AoS is the aesthetic and background which is both epic awsemoness all the time and lacking any character development, WFB was unique in its historical wacky style, to the point that Warcraft copied it initially. Now GW are copying WOW with the rather OTT style. However my hunch is that this style is going to be coming to the end of its cycle eventually and then GW will be stuck.

As for whether WFB will come back, well the appetite currently is for more instant gratification games for this part of the market GW are aiming for. However with IOB there is obviously appetite for older style miniatures - and I don't agree the inclusion of square bases is just about clearing stock as otherwise it would just be sold out when they got rid of the old bases. It's possible they may reintroduce a Warhammer Classic and run them concurrently. One is likely to fade away over time and if that was AOS then that may result in the reintroduction of WFB. However prices for r&f models would also have to drop,dramatically.

 Whirlwind wrote:

jouso wrote:

WHFB was not more rules intensive than, say, Infinity or Flames of War, all of which could wrap a game in 2-2:30h. If your group couldn't (or wouldn't) do it that's ok, but any group that played with relative frequency had no problem doing so. Personally even if there's no time limit I'd rather play two 2:30 games than a 5h one unless we're talking silly one-offs like a 30K game, a 3v3v3 or a siege with narrative rules (which did take one or two full days to play)

I've never really got the argument that WFB was too complicated and became bloated. Even back in 3rd/4th/5th edition there were plenty of rules that came up infrequently or slowed the game down so Empire War Wagon attacks where everybody had a different weapon, lapping round and even multiple types of psychology tests like cool, willpower rather than just leadership. I therefore think that this argument is looked at from the wrong perspective. It's not about that WFB has become more or less rule based I think it's societies approach to the world that has changed. There was less technology then, less distractions - you could spend hours reading and learning rules, there were no mobile phones, computers and so on to distract us. Computer games were basic and during my time with BBC machine could take two or three hours to load up. Compare that today when pretty much what you want for entertainment you can get instantly at the touch of the button. A rule book that takes several hours just to read through the core rules is no longer what many people will want to do. From this perspective AOS answers this with a very quick, less war gaming, but more casual computer game style of play.

As for which is selling better than another I don't really put truck in either argument, the sales strategy for both is different and comparing a game coming to the end of its life to a new one is just a bit silly. A better comparison would be how it's doing with the release of previous editions of WFB but were never likely to see this information.

I think the real weakness for AoS is the aesthetic and background which is both epic awsemoness all the time and lacking any character development, WFB was unique in its historical wacky style, to the point that Warcraft copied it initially. Now GW are copying WOW with the rather OTT style. However my hunch is that this style is going to be coming to the end of its cycle eventually and then GW will be stuck.

As for whether WFB will come back, well the appetite currently is for more instant gratification games for this part of the market GW are aiming for. However with IOB there is obviously appetite for older style miniatures - and I don't agree the inclusion of square bases is just about clearing stock as otherwise it would just be sold out when they got rid of the old bases. It's possible they may reintroduce a Warhammer Classic and run them concurrently. One is likely to fade away over time and if that was AOS then that may result in the reintroduction of WFB. However prices for r&f models would also have to drop,dramatically.

Off topic, but I think it would be great if GW added 2 versions of AoS, similar to how you have 40k and apoc, which albeit have morphed into one, where you have AoS pitched battles. But then an alternative call it, idk, grand battles they seem to like that word grand this go around, where its all rank and file with the new AoS units.

 auticus wrote:
Nope they weren't very one sided. Just stating that there are groups out there where the game didn't last two and a half hours.

My group isn't weird or strange, there have been dozens of polls on this topic that showed similar data.

We have guys here that are also like you that won't play games that last longer than a couple hours, and they didn't play in our campaign games for that reason, so the stance is understood.

Then it is a choice by your group to take the scenic route.

If after, say, 10 games of 8th edition it still took you 5h to complete a 2K game you can't blame it on rule-heaviness. It's a deliberate way to play the game.

(If you read my post well, the one sided part referred to Xwing, if you wrap a game in under 1h someone was baby-seal-clobbered, most tournaments play 75 minute games and a good deal of them end with both players still having ships on the mat)

 Just Tony wrote:
I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

no, I never saw it :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

so far that has gotten my duardin a 5-0 record. AXES OF THE DUARDIN MOFOS!!!

As for my personal observation of the limited games I have gotten recently, these armies in AoS are every bit as large if not larger than warhammer and the games are certainly no faster, my last fight (another duardin win (( cause if it aint got a beard, its skite!)) 7 warscrolls per side, my duardin army is larger than any I fielded in warhammer.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

no, I never saw it :(

Yeah, I started going there around the absolute late 90's, and was part timing when 6th WFB kicked off. Was a pretty fun time, and I was the resident CF player. I'm also the guy that dropped the LOD army on Miller's cheesy Biel Tan army, which earned me the recognition of him never playing agaist that army again.



Okay, WAY back on topic: The best way to look at the OT is to ask "Has GW brought back any older versions of games, or older games that were cancelled?" The answer is definitely yes to the latter, but they have yet to bring back an older version of a game that's already out. So I guess the more accurate question would be to ask "Does GW consider WFB dead, or is AOS simply the newest version of the same game. THAT would tell you what your chances of any "backpedaling" would be.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

no, I never saw it :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

so far that has gotten my duardin a 5-0 record. AXES OF THE DUARDIN MOFOS!!!

As for my personal observation of the limited games I have gotten recently, these armies in AoS are every bit as large if not larger than warhammer and the games are certainly no faster, my last fight (another duardin win (( cause if it aint got a beard, its skite!)) 7 warscrolls per side, my duardin army is larger than any I fielded in warhammer.

Im looking to try blood reavers and a blood secator, a 160 point unit getting 82 attacks on a 4/4 -1 rend is very appealing :3

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

no, I never saw it :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

so far that has gotten my duardin a 5-0 record. AXES OF THE DUARDIN MOFOS!!!

As for my personal observation of the limited games I have gotten recently, these armies in AoS are every bit as large if not larger than warhammer and the games are certainly no faster, my last fight (another duardin win (( cause if it aint got a beard, its skite!)) 7 warscrolls per side, my duardin army is larger than any I fielded in warhammer.

Going for the kill works fine for non-matched play scenarios. For the latter, though, I've seen that armies that just wanna hurry for the kill get systematically trampled by more tactically designed armies.

I agree that at some point strategy is going to out play sheer brute force, but I suppose that strategy in a table top game runs a very fine line between being a good tactition and list tailoring.

Suppose you are fighting zombie army with just bookoo zombies on the field, would you call your self a tactition for bringing like 4 hell canons? Or list tailoring because you know you are going to get the bonus to hit on a 2 up and more then likely be dealing 2d6 mortal wounds with each cannon?

Just devils advocate :p

I will say the strategy I have seen this far in the game is knowing how and what to combo, and knowing which unit to activate when, which kinda just boils down to well if I don't attack with this, these guys will and I loose attacks there so.

I think it sells great, but it's like E.T. for the Atari 2600, sure they BOUGHT it, but there's nobody PLAYING it, and those that do, know it truly SUCKS. It's a garbage skirmish game sitting on the corpse of a rank and file control of mighty armies, where strategy and maneuvering actually mattered.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I agree that at some point strategy is going to out play sheer brute force, but I suppose that strategy in a table top game runs a very fine line between being a good tactition and list tailoring.

Suppose you are fighting zombie army with just bookoo zombies on the field, would you call your self a tactition for bringing like 4 hell canons? Or list tailoring because you know you are going to get the bonus to hit on a 2 up and more then likely be dealing 2d6 mortal wounds with each cannon?

Just devils advocate :p

I will say the strategy I have seen this far in the game is knowing how and what to combo, and knowing which unit to activate when, which kinda just boils down to well if I don't attack with this, these guys will and I loose attacks there so.

And you could do that just fine with 40k, infinity, fantasy,etc.. Bringing the hard counter to a certain list/build/style is something that is done on ANY type of competitive game, from fighter games to card games, covering tt too.
That isn't playing devil's advocate, it's stating the obvious.

I can't see them backpedalling at all if I'm honest, AoS is doing really well here and if anything the release of the General's Handbook indicates that GW are becoming more and more invested in developing it as a game system, rather than moving onto the next money-spinning fad.

I do hope they do a rank and file alternative game system or at the very least expansion, similar to what War of the Ring was to LotR Strategy Battle Game. All it would take is for GW to add in some extra rules, produce some movement trays or dig out the WotR ones (or even just leave people to create their own rules) then they could sell the book for £15-30, the movement trays for something silly and bring a whole load of old WHFB players back into the fold. It makes sense to me, and so I'm quietly confident GW will make this happen at some point.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I moved away from there over a decade ago, and I think the Phoenix was gone sometime around 2005-2006. Do you remember that guy that part timed on Wednesdays over there that had the Crimson Fists army?

no, I never saw it :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
From trying to catch up on the thread, i see we came across the topic of Synergy within an army. I can see the pros and cons of it, where it does provide a nice strategy for combinations, but on the other hand, it leaves open the door that takes you down the path of, if you are not running X combo for Y army you are doing it wrong.

IE just doing some napkin math and light reading, its possible in a Chaos army that you can get a single unit of 20 guys to pump out 80+ attacks with rerollable to hits or wound.

But still interesting to see the thread going and points to be made.

You know, one of the things I absolutely adored about 6th Ed. was the fact that you didn't have double digits worth of wounds being doled out on average. Everything was a psychological press without some blender unit wiping everything out to a man in one combat round. Back in 3rd Ed. 40K I ran a Veteran Space Marine squad with Terminator Honors that threw a brick of normal attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks, and I thought that was a touch egregious. AOS taught me that the unit was simply ahead of its time.

Well one thing i think everyone agrees on, AoS is not really a strategy game, its a pile in, hack and slasher. Its almost akin to something like a dynasty warrior game, mindless, senseless fun. No that said, I would understand why some, hell a large amount of people dont like that. I dont think the making of the AoS game was bad, i think shelving the rank and file system was a dumb idea.

Yeah, good luck doing that, just push the models up the table and just try to kill things, see how far that gets you.

so far that has gotten my duardin a 5-0 record. AXES OF THE DUARDIN MOFOS!!!

As for my personal observation of the limited games I have gotten recently, these armies in AoS are every bit as large if not larger than warhammer and the games are certainly no faster, my last fight (another duardin win (( cause if it aint got a beard, its skite!)) 7 warscrolls per side, my duardin army is larger than any I fielded in warhammer.

Going for the kill works fine for non-matched play scenarios. For the latter, though, I've seen that armies that just wanna hurry for the kill get systematically trampled by more tactically designed armies.

my main strength is exactly my resilience and killing power, once you are in melee there is no such thing as "tactics" its a brawl and the GBT excel at brawling. Heavy with the ironbreakers. I dont play matched so no idea, but the rules of the game really arent that complicated.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

So does 40k currently. I realize Fantasy was too complicated but they didn't need to turn it into AoS. The main issue was the prices and some of the models for AoS look like crap. Some are decent looking but others aren't. The old rules for AoS were an awful drinking game and insulting if you spent over a thousand US dollars to get into. The cost of entry into the game was the bigger problem and the rules were a bit bloated but they changed far too much. Even a more gutted version of Fantasy (which should've happened) would've blushed at what AoS did to Fantasy.

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

You know what the bitter irony of it all it? AoSing WFB only ended up making it more popular and with the release of their IP from THQ the swath of WFB games have only driven more interest in WFB, it's a shame when a new guy comes into the store after playing total warhammer looking to make a empire army only to find out, oh yeah they are all dead, BUT SIGMARINES!

So to the aspect of nuking lore it was dumb, the game itself is it or miss, as I once heard it described, it's more of a beer and pretzel game now, be WFB which seems to be more like total war but turn based.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You know what the bitter irony of it all it? AoSing WFB only ended up making it more popular and with the release of their IP from THQ the swath of WFB games have only driven more interest in WFB, it's a shame when a new guy comes into the store after playing total warhammer looking to make a empire army only to find out, oh yeah they are all dead, BUT SIGMARINES!

So to the aspect of nuking lore it was dumb, the game itself is it or miss, as I once heard it described, it's more of a beer and pretzel game now, be WFB which seems to be more like total war but turn based.

The sad bit is the Total War game could've saved it. There's no doubt in my mind considering how popular it is. It's like people saying LotR is unpopular just because GW's version is about 3% of sales even though they won't can that game for some stupid reason. The point is if you make good games and get good video games and other media to support your tabletop game then you will succeed. I mean if i never played DoW 1 i never would've gotten into any GW game and i hear DoW 2 was the same way for other players. However GW being the constantly out of the loop village idiot seem to not understand the popularity and power of things like video games. These days you need good video games to support the tabletop games or else it'll do poorly.

WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

To be completely honest i wouldn't mind Fantasy being dead as much if GW policy wasn't a massive '**** YOU!' to fantasy players. I didn't spend 1,000 US dollars to be treated that way. My boss or supervisor at work can get away with it if they desire because i'm getting paid by them at the end of the day. I don't have to put up with that **** from people i pay a thousand US dollars to. If anything they should prostrate themselves to me and kiss the dirt off my boots. That's much more acceptable of a customer and business relationship or at least on the surface.

So yeah my point being if they allowed Fantasy to be played in their stores even as a dead game i would totally give less crap to GW for it. Course despite new head guy fixing things he hasn't turned everything around. The prices are still obscene and Fantasy players are still treated like garbage. I mean even speaking of 9th Age in the store is not allowed. That should tell you something about how little GW thinks of its previous Fantasy players (even if you buy their models, their rulebooks, supplements and garbage from their store you can't play Fantasy in their store). Keep in mind if this is what they do to fans of their First popular main game that lasted almost as many years as i am alive then think of how they'd treat AoS players if it didn't sell as well as they planned. I want you guys to think about that for a second before you wish to insult Fantasy players. GW treats (or at least treated) their customer base as disposable money bags and had no issue screwing over whole fan bases for factions or even Fantasy players just to sell what they thought was popular (which often only was so because it was OP). I can also imagine Space Marines did well because of their eventual Family Friendly approach and kids love those stupid idiotic marines with the super powers.

my dwarf army cost about $400, with army book, for warhammer. my grudgebound throng, yeah it cost $400 with grand order alliance,. it was not cheaper either way.

 thekingofkings wrote:
my dwarf army cost about $400, with army book, for warhammer. my grudgebound throng, yeah it cost $400 with grand order alliance,. it was not cheaper either way.

Just saying though that prices like that prevent people from entering the game. Look at how popular Total War: Warhammer is. Sure people complain but it's infinitely cheaper than Fantasy or Age of Sigmar is and **** it is it ever popular even with the negative reviews based around DLC prices. I doubt strategy or some complication takes away much from the game so much as sheer price and absolute **** treatment of the player base. I mean they even listen to their fans. They extend chaos warriors DLC to up to the first week, they have FreeLC and they allow much more than GW ever has. Keep in mind AoS as it is now with the more intelligent new head of the GW company vs when the previous company head that was the village idiot killed Fantasy off is much different. A better comparison would be how Kirby handled Fantasy and AoS and the answer to both is poorly just as he poorly handled the company. If the new head of GW management handled Fantasy there's a good chance he would've made a smart decision that wouldn't screw over the fans which is why Sisters are getting released to a degree and more factions are getting love in 40k.

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
my dwarf army cost about $400, with army book, for warhammer. my grudgebound throng, yeah it cost $400 with grand order alliance,. it was not cheaper either way.

Just saying though that prices like that prevent people from entering the game. Look at how popular Total War: Warhammer is. Sure people complain but it's infinitely cheaper than Fantasy or Age of Sigmar is and **** it is it ever popular even with the negative reviews based around DLC prices. I doubt strategy or some complication takes away much from the game so much as sheer price and absolute **** treatment of the player base. I mean they even listen to their fans. They extend chaos warriors DLC to up to the first week, they have FreeLC and they allow much more than GW ever has. Keep in mind AoS as it is now with the more intelligent new head of the GW company vs when the previous company head that was the village idiot killed Fantasy off is much different. A better comparison would be how Kirby handled Fantasy and AoS and the answer to both is poorly just as he poorly handled the company. If the new head of GW management handled Fantasy there's a good chance he would've made a smart decision that wouldn't screw over the fans which is why Sisters are getting released to a degree and more factions are getting love in 40k.

pretty much my point, the argument that AoS is cheaper just has not proven true to me. just to build my one battallion costs the same as my 2,000 point army was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

which one was 6th? that the empire vs orcs box?

I want you guys to think about that for a second before you wish to insult Fantasy players.

I find this quote amusing considering it was Fantasy players who loved to harp on and hate anyone who said anything positive about AoS in any sense of the word.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

Now this is really amusin! Comprehend why it's great while at the same time not knowing a thing about the Stormcast at all, namely the fact that they aren't any of those things really. They are human, they feel fear, they even interact with their descendants and need to eat sleep and all those sorts of things as they continue to fight against such odds while even fearing their own death. They do become emotionless but thats because as they die they lose everything that makes them human, they become emotionless focused purely on the goal without caring who they were or once were.

Heck they lose and fight, the thing of the matter is that it's gone from low fantasy to high fantasy where good actually has a chance of doing something meaningful and carving out their own hope in this universe out to shat on them. The tone has drastically shifted as a result of course but I have no clue why you at all think that they are somehow better then Chaos + 1 or otherwise!

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

And the End Times are considered by most to be part of AoS, because most tend to hate it as a result of what it led to.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I want you guys to think about that for a second before you wish to insult Fantasy players.

I find this quote amusing considering it was Fantasy players who loved to harp on and hate anyone who said anything positive about AoS in any sense of the word.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

Now this is really amusin! Comprehend why it's great while at the same time not knowing a thing about the Stormcast at all, namely the fact that they aren't any of those things really. They are human, they feel fear, they even interact with their descendants and need to eat sleep and all those sorts of things as they continue to fight against such odds while even fearing their own death. They do become emotionless but thats because as they die they lose everything that makes them human, they become emotionless focused purely on the goal without caring who they were or once were.

Heck they lose and fight, the thing of the matter is that it's gone from low fantasy to high fantasy where good actually has a chance of doing something meaningful and carving out their own hope in this universe out to shat on them. The tone has drastically shifted as a result of course.

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

And the End Times are considered by most to be part of AoS, because most tend to hate it as a result of what it led to.

We hated on AoS because GW killed our game, made us into bad guys, prevented us playing our game at their stores, took our money and bait and switched us making us think AoS was 9th edition Fantasy. All this considering Total War: Warhammer was on the horizon and everything was looking up for Fantasy including End Times increasing interest exponentially because the setting was moving forward. I mean both 40k and Fantasy stagnated and the idea that characters were dying left and right made things hurtful but awesome. Saying this as somebody that liked Queek and the Skaven in his Clan get totally destroyed we still got to see Skaven and many Bad Guy races kick some much deserved ***. It was a long time coming and it felt great. They went way too far though.

------

Amusing because you don't understand the power level between crappy *** empire soldier and the other enemies that exist. The Empire was more like the Imperial Guard. Sigmarines fill the role of space marines because space marines are genetically engineered BA's that spit acid. You can't relate to that and 40k even makes points that you can't. If you can't relate to their struggle why should you care about them? What makes the Empire great is you can relate to farmer turned soldier looking out for his family or even a guardsman of the imperial guard. Space marines and sigmarines aren't like that. They aren't frail, fragile or weak. You don't understand. Also emotionless equals boring. I can't relate or care about an emotionless husk.

Yes and that's why it sucks. Good needs to be an underdog. The point is success against the odds. If the bad guy is weaker than the good guys where's the struggle? Why should i care? This is what AoS fails at and what LotR succeeded at. Big Bad that almost surely will win and good guys that almost surely will lose. People care because there's a chance the good guys will lose and in Fantasy they did. I just wish it wasn't so horrible what they did and what they did to the fans.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed. As i said 40k and Fantasy needed new events and changing of hands which GW doesn't have enough balls to do until they murder a setting or faction apparently due to sales (or supposedly). Besides what makes you think AoS will be any different if it lasts for 5 more years or longer?

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy. AoS players didn't play during End Times but Fantasy players did. It is no more a part of AoS than 30k players playing out the horus heresy is exactly 40k. In fact it's less due to all the drastic changes, no sigmarines, the Old World and just about everything. There's far too much difference.

We hated on AoS because GW killed our game, made us into bad guys, prevented us playing our game at their stores, took our money and bait and switched us making us think AoS was 9th edition Fantasy. All this considering Total War: Warhammer was on the horizon and everything was looking up for Fantasy including End Times increasing interest exponentially because the setting was moving forward.

Should note I played WHFB (Orcs!) , so it's not as if I joined for AoS alone, and according to GW the End Times didn't really do much to increased sales exponentially at all. (Given Kirby's word anyways)

Amusing because you don't understand the power level between crappy *** empire soldier and the other enemies that exist. The Empire was more like the Imperial Guard. Sigmarines fill the role of space marines because space marines are genetically engineered BA's that spit acid. You can't relate to that and 40k even makes points that you can't. If you can't relate to their struggle why should you care about them? What makes the Empire great is you can relate to farmer turned soldier looking out for his family or even a guardsman of the imperial guard. Space marines and sigmarines aren't like that. They aren't frail, fragile or weak. You don't understand. Also emotionless equals boring. I can't relate or care about an emotionless husk.

You do know those people are still around and fighting right...? They are called the Free People who certainly are trying to forge themselves a new place in this world despite the fact that Chaos controls nearly most of the realms barely safe within Sigmar's walls, and you took my emotionless quote out of context so very hard didn't you? I said they only became such after being killed and reforged, which even they feared because they wanted to keep their humanity, they don't want to die off to become as horrific as the ones who have been reforged constantly.

Yes and that's why it sucks. Good needs to be an underdog. The point is success against the odds. If the bad guy is weaker than the good guys where's the struggle? Why should i care? This is what AoS fails at and what LotR succeeded at. Big Bad that almost surely will win and good guys that almost surely will lose. People care because there's a chance the good guys will lose and in Fantasy they did. I just wish it wasn't so horrible what they did and what they did to the fans.

In Fantasy there was literally no chance of good winning, it was a decrept husk that was always on the edge of constant disaster while various elector counts bicker and fight, the dwarfs were killing themselves off and the Elf's problems are halfway their own due to Malekith's issues.

And you are acting as if they are going around, mace in hand and swinging apart constant hordes of chaos singing merrily about the bloody paste that's adorning their boots. Chaos nearly WON their victory at hand and now good is fighting back, but its still very much a struggle and it certainly isn't SIGMARINES ARE THE BEST AND WINNING EVERYTHING as you like to say now.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed

So then there's no underdog then, no chance for good or any sort of tale there. It's a dog with a guillotine over its head then?

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy. AoS players didn't play during End Times but Fantasy players did. It is no more a part of AoS than 30k players playing out the horus heresy is exactly 40k. In fact it's less due to all the drastic changes, no sigmarines, the Old World and just about everything. There's far too much difference.

You are one of the few I've seen that don't consider the End Times tied to AoS, most consider it an abomination alongside it from what I can tell due to it's death of the old world.

Oh yeah the Empire was never going to fall until End Times when the world was destroyed. As i said 40k and Fantasy needed new events and changing of hands which GW doesn't have enough balls to do until they murder a setting or faction apparently due to sales (or supposedly). Besides what makes you think AoS will be any different if it lasts for 5 more years or longer? 

Well I imagine that the first year saw AoS get a background effecting Summer campaign and the lore saw lots of places get conquered and reconquered by other races would say it'll be different.

End Times aren't part of AoS. If GW considers it it's only because they killed Fantasy.

Indeed they are, Sigmar and his pantheon vividly remember them and rarely recall the horrors of it and End Times even served to foreshadow AoS as it set the explanation of heroes from one world becoming gods for the next and what people thought was that famous Grey Knight(Khal Draigo? My 40k knowledge is poor I'm afraid) in the realm of chaos was actually a Hallowed knights Stormcast commander who even got shown being thrown into Nurgle's realm in the AoS books.

AoS players didn't play during End Times

Very much not true, alot of fantasy veterans like myself played through it and some good lads on the tga forum even made the End Times compatible with AoS gameplay so they could enjoy it further.

Despite all that, I understand where you're coming from though.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

I also echo those talking about Total War. It is a shame that GW decided to make the move to AoS just as Total War: Warhammer came out. It would've been nice if they'd given it a year or two to see if it helped, maybe link the game to the hobby more, and maybe release some better battalions. Whilst I don't personally know anyone who's gotten into the game through Total War: Warhammer, it would be nice if GW brought back a mass-battle version for these players and for the wider community.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
my dwarf army cost about $400, with army book, for warhammer. my grudgebound throng, yeah it cost $400 with grand order alliance,. it was not cheaper either way.

Just saying though that prices like that prevent people from entering the game. Look at how popular Total War: Warhammer is. Sure people complain but it's infinitely cheaper than Fantasy or Age of Sigmar is and **** it is it ever popular even with the negative reviews based around DLC prices. I doubt strategy or some complication takes away much from the game so much as sheer price and absolute **** treatment of the player base. I mean they even listen to their fans. They extend chaos warriors DLC to up to the first week, they have FreeLC and they allow much more than GW ever has. Keep in mind AoS as it is now with the more intelligent new head of the GW company vs when the previous company head that was the village idiot killed Fantasy off is much different. A better comparison would be how Kirby handled Fantasy and AoS and the answer to both is poorly just as he poorly handled the company. If the new head of GW management handled Fantasy there's a good chance he would've made a smart decision that wouldn't screw over the fans which is why Sisters are getting released to a degree and more factions are getting love in 40k.

pretty much my point, the argument that AoS is cheaper just has not proven true to me. just to build my one battallion costs the same as my 2,000 point army was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
WHFB is resurrectable, the interest is there.

AoS can be the mainstay for fantasy on an economic level, and it has the advantage that its a simple system so it gets younger people into the hobby, notably at an age before wargaming becomes a sad hobby only no-hope nerds play according to the mainstream child's opinion.

WHFB can be supported by mail order with a 9th edition rulebook and a second large hardback Ravening Hordes containing every list in detail That would be enough.

Handling it this way would help as WHFB would not be available through resellers as GW would sell it exclusively and they can manufacture the sprues in batches as need and dispense with all packaging. This will make it cheap to produce and thus profitable.

9th edition can easily be fixed as a rules system by stealing back the best parts of 9th Age, adding those things missing from unloved races and then just letting the whole game remain static as a legacy product,

Replace 9th age (ehhhhhhhh) with 6th Ed. and I'd be on board in a heartbeat, as well as several people in my area.

which one was 6th? that the empire vs orcs box?

Absolutely, that's the one. If you play it with Ravening Hordes army lists, it is the most fair version of WFB you will ever play. The army books are where it went off the rails, and rather than replace the bad books, they changed the core rules. Baffling...

Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

 Orlanth wrote:
6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

Sometimes you need to take a step backwards. If your current system doesn't work, and a previous system works albeit slightly off, then it's more of a prerogative to make the small fixes to the older system than to try to completely overhaul the newer system. You see, to me I don't think 8th added anything that really needs brought along except the new units, IF you can stat and point them in a way that they'd fit in 6th.

8th's magic system was totally stupid and imbalanced, and adding the PD rules from 7th to 6th fixes the only bad thing about magic in that edition.

Random charge is one of my biggest complaints. Even if it's an outlier, there is a chance that a Dwarf unit can charge farther than a cav unit in 8th. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for that to happen should be enough to raise an eyebrow or two.

Having a multitude of attacks means that the points values of each unit is completely off, which also means that certain units become no brainer choices, whereas in every other edition you had real hard choices to make with armament. 7th killed that with so many army books giving models every damn option possible. Black Orcs? Slayers? Yeah, it's every bit as bad as CSMs having shooting AND CC layout at the same time. Where is the negative to that?

Also 6th meant Swarms were actually useful, whereas from 7th on they were worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

We don't often agree, but you nailed it this time. And to be frank, I think there was only three or four books that needed rewritten in 6th. That isn't a bad record. Though the one they DID rewrite as a precursor to 7th was one that DIDN'T need rewritten.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

And emotionless husk? Does this seem emotionless to you?

‘Lend me your might! If you can still
hear me, if you care still for the lives and
deeds of mortal men, then grant me as
much of your power as you might spare,
so that I may be avenged upon the slayers
of my folk, that I might kill them and kill
them and never rest, not until every last
drop of Chaos-ruined blood has been
spilt and washed away from the soil of
Amcarsh by clean rains. I do not ask to
be saved. I do not plead for my life. I ask
only for strength. I ask only to be
avenged!’

The audio-drama makes it more dramatic, guy's screaming from atop his lungs in rage and impotence. And this is a stormcast making the shouts.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

This is correct a stormcast strength fluff wise is about the level of a chaos warrior. A vampire strength wise is stronger than a stormcast according to mannfred

 Just Tony wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
6th Edition is still a step backward. It was a good system because Tuomas Pirinen made holistic changes. However there are improvement in 8th, supporting attacks is one such improvement, it makes rank and file units more valuable. Steadfast needs to go though.

9th edition needs to take the best of 6th, enough from 9th age and whatever was left of 7th and 8th. Repackage the army lists to include everything from 5th edition onwards points balance them once for all time based on all the army lists together and produce a static 9th edition that can stand on its own two feet as a standalone game.

Sometimes you need to take a step backwards. If your current system doesn't work, and a previous system works albeit slightly off, then it's more of a prerogative to make the small fixes to the older system than to try to completely overhaul the newer system. You see, to me I don't think 8th added anything that really needs brought along except the new units, IF you can stat and point them in a way that they'd fit in 6th.

8th's magic system was totally stupid and imbalanced, and adding the PD rules from 7th to 6th fixes the only bad thing about magic in that edition.

Random charge is one of my biggest complaints. Even if it's an outlier, there is a chance that a Dwarf unit can charge farther than a cav unit in 8th. The fact that it is even POSSIBLE for that to happen should be enough to raise an eyebrow or two.

Having a multitude of attacks means that the points values of each unit is completely off, which also means that certain units become no brainer choices, whereas in every other edition you had real hard choices to make with armament. 7th killed that with so many army books giving models every damn option possible. Black Orcs? Slayers? Yeah, it's every bit as bad as CSMs having shooting AND CC layout at the same time. Where is the negative to that?

Also 6th meant Swarms were actually useful, whereas from 7th on they were worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
Ravening Hordes was great. It saved me from canning WHFB altogether after I spent a couple years in 5th edition and wanted something more than D&D with models.

Indeed the army book power creep went to insane levels and by two years into 7th I put it all away for a few years because it had gotten stupid, stale, scriptable, and super easy to abuse again.

We don't often agree, but you nailed it this time. And to be frank, I think there was only three or four books that needed rewritten in 6th. That isn't a bad record. Though the one they DID rewrite as a precursor to 7th was one that DIDN'T need rewritten.

The problem is that army book creep was there to sell models. A legacy product can rid itself of this problem. Gw can if they get the right designer get the balance of Ravening hordes with the depth of the army books in a single volume for sale accompanying a fixed 9th edition ruleset.
What made 6th work was the holistic change under one design head. That success can be replicated.

 The Shadow wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

Well my argument was to his that Fantasy was less stale then 40k for context., but I honest to god don't understand this. It's like if you want a setting it doesn't disappear if new things happen? I mean lets say Stormy mc stormersome of the thunderheartz tribe carved a bloody path through the Empire, shattering it and causing the empire to be splintered between various forces... Couldn't you just ignore it and play as you want anyways? I mean changing the storyline should open up many more settings as things are added or changed around, for which you could forge a narrative of the things you like or don't like.

It's just strange that you'd find it weird to play TK in AoS when you are forging your own narrative regardless, I honestly don't understand that.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And let's be blunt, the Empire was never going to fall as the Storm of Chaos proved, they fudged everything to an unsatisfying conclusion and then even just retconned the result. I mean really near limitless people continue to die, and yet the Empire's lands never really changed hands, Brettonia never did anything, the High Elfs and the Dark Elfs war would be eternal and nothing changed. It was as stalemated as 40k is and if it wasn't for GW finally causing the end it would've remain stalemated to the end with Chaos just being repelled at the border again and again.

Any and all arguments about the WHFB background being boring, stale or static is just a non-argument to me. I'm not after a TV show, I'm after a wargame. Sure, the warhammer universe as you describe with nothing much really changing would make a crappy TV show, whereas the world as we know it ending sounds like a cracking season finale. But I'm not after a story, I'm after a setting. At the risk of sounding too "forge the narrativey", the static nature of the WHFB world allowed you to make your own stories and fight any battle you choose. It was open. Want to see what "happens" if the Empire gets invaded by Chaos "for real", then gather a couple of friends together and play a campaign around that scenario. If the Chaos player(s) win(s), then you can consider the storyline advanced; the next thing that happens in the WHFB world is that the Empire falls to this Chaos invasion. But guess what, the Empire haven't actually all died because the storyline is static, so when you play a pick-up game with your Empire the week after the campaign, it still makes sense in relation to the background of the warhammer world. Unlike, say, Tomb Kings, who have, to my knowledge (admittedly it's not great on AoS fluff but the models aren't around so I think I'm right) simply died or disappeared. Now if I play an AoS game with Tomb Kings, it doesn't make sense in relation to the AoS world. What a great storyline advancement, it's provided such a great setting for our games /sarcasm.

Short version is that the background of a wargaming universe should provide a setting on which you build, the storyline doesn't need to be advanced and shouldn't need to be. It's not a TV show. Have some imagination and don't just assume that because GW didn't (until end times/AoS) advance the storyline, nothing is happening or could happen.

Well my argument was to his that Fantasy was less stale then 40k for context., but I honest to god don't understand this. It's like if you want a setting it doesn't disappear if new things happen? I mean lets say Stormy mc stormersome of the thunderheartz tribe carved a bloody path through the Empire, shattering it and causing the empire to be splintered between various forces... Couldn't you just ignore it and play as you want anyways? I mean changing the storyline should open up many more settings as things are added or changed around, for which you could forge a narrative of the things you like or don't like.

It's just strange that you'd find it weird to play TK in AoS when you are forging your own narrative regardless, I honestly don't understand that.

I think the issue is more along with what you put forward stormy Mc Stormersome even though it would have screwed the empire, the rest of the world is still there, where AoS just nuked everything. In the first example, sure thats a big deal but every thing up to that mattered still, with AoS, everything from the old world is pointless now, just poof, gone, and i think thats what is upsetting most people.

Again just my observations and opinions on it.

I don't think that was the specific example seeing as he was talking about keeping the setting static in general, along with picking an AoS example with TK not being a primary army if available for people to play. (Though given some backgrounds, they may be planning a return)

He would hate Stormy mcstormersome changing the setting at all.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

As for fans at the GW store i'm at i've seen newer faces in AoS and some 40k players try it out and eventually stop playing. The issue being there's never enough AoS people there with armies to play the game which i find interesting despite all the mounds of evidence you guys seem to have. GW's insistence that AoS is doing really well (not accounting numbers for last chance to buy, killing off 2 main armies in Fantasy, the need for a General's Handbook and the re-vamped IoB seeming to show otherwise). I also find it funny regardless of the lower model count that they instead make super huge kits on the scale of stormsurge and garbage like that where monsters in fantasy generally wouldn't be bigger than average 40k monsters. Oh and hey apparently it must be balanced which is why Death does so well and Nagash just wrecks face. Even a guy with a necron army in 40k that often lost with it generally beats people in AoS with Nagash. Interesting. Guess it must be balanced . Also interesting to see people getting more interested in End Times than AoS lore but i suppose End Times is akin to Horus Heresy for AoS now.

I also find it interesting how people seem to lack the ability to comprehend simple things about why Fantasy was great. It didn't have Sigmarines. It was about joe schmoe farmer man of the empire defending his family from unthinkable horrors rather than some faceless, thoughtless, emotionless space marine that is even stronger and better than said unimaginable horror (it's about the good guy being the underdog for christ's sake). The numbers per army were limited and the bad guys were winning hardcore unlike the endless stalemate for 10,000 years of 40k. Also unlike 40k the numbers being finite it meant more seemed at risk. After the elf civil war in End Times there was supposedly only a few thousands of elves left and when the Empire loses a few provinces they have 12 total. I can't tell you how many times the Empire almost got wiped out.

The tactics in Fantasy also seem to confuse 40k fans and AoS fans. When i tell them charging an enemy and getting them to flee and then charging some other dudes at said fleeing unit to force it in front of an enemy unit that would charge you next turn and do a whole lot of damage to you was the greatest feeling they look confused. It wasn't a game of checkers but hey i guess chess is unpopular so lets kill it off and make a game more simple than checkers.

I just can't stand how AoS players mostly never truly played Fantasy and let the game and players intimidate them despite constant cases at my store where a 40k player referred to Fantasy players as 'Squares' and saying he'd never play Fantasy and Fantasy players like me telling him 'He should try it. He'd have fun.' I suppose the only explanation of poor sales isn't poor business practices and the fact that Fantasy must be unpopular and Space Marines and massive dumbing down is the only answer. God i hate AoS. GW could've handled it better too. Allow both AoS and Fantasy to be played whereas now it's the only GW game system you can't play in their stores. GW deserves to lose the market for that. The previous head of GW should've been castrated. At least the new guy is fixing things but i dunno if it's enough.

There's just sooo much wrong with those arguments:

First thing first: how does ANY of what you've said actually constitute a bad sign, aside from the panic buys of last chance? I bought IoB's reincarnation and it was to begin my other two armies of AoS, and so did a friend of mine who wanted the rules for those elves. So your point of IoB's re-release is a flawed argument,further reinforced by the fact that they did the same with AoBR turning into battle for Vedros, or the re-edition of DV for 6->7th. GW likes to re-has their starters from time to time. GHB's added new rules and ways of playing, it's an expansion in the same way Planetary assault was for 40k. Matched play was literally designed by fans (the basis and assitance at least).

I fail to see the fun on the big kits. In fact, it hurt my mawkrushas's feelings.

You haven't played a lot of AoS competitively, haven't you? Nagash's is garbage tier. And I seriously mean it. In so far in the two big tournaments there's only been ONE death player in any of the two top fives. And it was a FEC (ghouls) list, no sign of Nagash anywhere close. Hell, even Tomb Kings whom the net will flaunt as extremely powerful didn't get beyond seventh place at warlords. But yeah, death placed second in a tournament and didn't figure at all in the following one's top 5. It's broken as feth. The fact that the top 5 armies were totally different despite there being no new army release shows us how unbalanced the game is.

That joe shmuck died and got a visit by sigmar and was offered the chance of getting a gakload of steroids and a shot at payback.Stormcasts are those that died at the hands of chaos right after losing EVERYTHING AGAIN and being on the verge of being wiped out. And he says yes, goes back and is angry. And even as his humanity is gnawed away bit by bit he'll remember that. And "stronger than that faceless horror"? What? Stormcasts are stronger than humans but nowhere the ridunkoloussness of space marines, they struggle to face the gak they are thrown away. For hell's sake, the guys from the starter set are slaughtered to a man by Archaon himself (and there was much joy). Stormcasts got crumpled during the tome pestilens, tome ironjawz and I think tome everchosen if not more. Basically these guys are smacked quite often and it's shown they are not the top dog. Like, at all.

And emotionless husk? Does this seem emotionless to you?

‘Lend me your might! If you can still
hear me, if you care still for the lives and
deeds of mortal men, then grant me as
much of your power as you might spare,
so that I may be avenged upon the slayers
of my folk, that I might kill them and kill
them and never rest, not until every last
drop of Chaos-ruined blood has been
spilt and washed away from the soil of
Amcarsh by clean rains. I do not ask to
be saved. I do not plead for my life. I ask
only for strength. I ask only to be
avenged!’

Yeah, yeah and throw way too much 40k grim dark space marines into Fantasy. You know what was good about Fantasy? It was the fact it was significantly different to 40k. No space marines, no constant grimdark BS, no main good guy faction on the same terms as the top bad guys and no good guys that wished they could be as good as other good guys. Every faction felt relevant rather than stormcast being the good guys everybody wish they could be or baddies wanting to be Chaos that normally never would (skaven). Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

I will admit i didn't get too into AoS because it was pretty half ***ed when it came out. I tried to play it and didn't like it. You couldn't even play a game of points back then at the GW store. They wouldn't allow you to add balance when it came out. I admit they changed it a year later but by then i'd already moved on. Consider they basically **** on the Fantasy players and everything the Fantasy players liked. Basically GW always handled things too little too late or a lot too late. As much popularity AoS supposedly has i haven't seen it do so well at the local GW. Not many people are playing and at least less than played Fantasy. Perhaps other countries have it different as prices in some countries are way higher for these models but where i'm at i've seen a decrease in customers or at least games being played going from Fantasy to AoS. Fantasy needed a fix to be sure but they dialed it up to 11, added 40k into it and then half ***ed everything about it. Kirby was a dunce though and the new management seems to understand how to work a company. Shame he wasn't there to save Fantasy. I do find it interesting how much GW likes to **** on Fantasy players though. You can play any game GW made at their store and even blood bowl got re-vamped but hey screw Fantasy players. I still think the re-vamped IoB is a way to re-introduce Fantasy to have 3 games. At this point LotR/Hobbit sales are pretty much negligible.

Oh and don't take Kirby's words as worth more than something the cat threw up. End Times saw an increase in sales and i saw this myself and partly this is what bothered me about AoS because after spending 200 dollars or so to stay relevant they murdered Fantasy some months after. Why do you guys get such ****s and giggles for trolling Fantasy players? I realize you guys had a rough start but GW crapped on Fantasy. I'm sorry if they gave you a hard time but they murdered our game to give you yours. Had GW not done that you guys could do whatever you want including playing a game a flicking testicles and i wouldn't have cared. It's your money and your choice. What bothered me was how they delivered all this and how they handled it. It was a massive **** you to Fantasy players and they didn't even give us an option to play Fantasy after the average person threw down a thousand USD to play their Fantasy game.

For any who say they find it surprising i liked End Times i liked it to a degree. Some things it fixed with 8th or Fantasy and some things it went to far on. The world was moving forward and that was good (characters died, events happened and some various groups in various armies got wiped out). Sadly greenskins got left out mostly for no real reason other than not having enough time. The combination of the character profile with the monster it was riding was absolutely fantastic. It solved the whole cannons sniping characters off of really powerful monsters issue that prevented people from taking heroes or leaders on their mounts. To an extent it was still there but it wasn't as bad. The magic however was even more broken than before most notably the new undead lore (whatever the **** they called it). Nagash and some characters were broken as well. Skaven got a much needed update and got an actual worthwhile Vermin lord for its points cost though ratling cannons on stormfiends were fairly OP but probably nowhere along the lines of Nagash summoning a whole other army. I mixed on 50% for lords and heroes as it gave too much reliance on big heroes and less on the armies but stuff like vermin lords could be more easily fielded (which oddly couldn't lead skaven armies). A lot of the models made were really good barring the gumball machine of skulls look of the 3 top generals of Nagash and the really weird feet of the vermin lord. I even laughed at the little brainy skaven dude in the back of every stormfiend carried like a baby carrier as it fit the wacky feel of skaven and frankenstein feel of clan moulder (at least in my eyes). I also enjoyed the combining of some factions (all undead) but to a lesser extent the combining of elves who probably should've relied more on malekith's army vs tyrion's army and what those armies composed of rather than all 3 broken factions of elves that were even more broken when they came together.

Anyway the biggest issue i had with End Times is that it ended and Fantasy died. It seemed more like a campaign than anything and it was highly successful at that. Notice how the voices of complaints were fairly low until the final book reveals the game dies and AoS confirming that not only could we not play games taking place before the story ended but we could never play another game again. I'll admit some of the stories in End Times sounded odd and screwed over so factions hardcore but parts of it were a step in the right direction and others weren't whereas AoS didn't give a **** and just crapped all over everything that was Fantasy. Aside from the factions themselves little else about remains similar to fantasy including much of the lore.

I think that's because settings are traditionally static and never change and just provide a backdrop.

I honestly don't see the fuss either way. If one wants to play in the old world, one can just simply set their games in the old world easy enough.

You can't destroy a fictional world that never existed in the first place.

 auticus wrote:
I think that's because settings are traditionally static and never change and just provide a backdrop.

I honestly don't see the fuss either way. If one wants to play in the old world, one can just simply set their games in the old world easy enough.

You can't destroy a fictional world that never existed in the first place.

Yeah but the death of Fantasy and not allowing people to play at a GW hurts the dead game. Sure they still sell the models somewhat but it's harder if you need the rules and other things like possible movement trays, FAQ, people to play against and so on. Not to mention if you had an army that really needed an update like skaven (8 page FAQ forever now :(), bretonnia or beastmen it was even harder to stay into the game. I will never get an update with new models for my game with rules that put them on line with other 8th edition armies because the game is dead. I also have the misfortune to be unable to travel to other game stores. The point mostly being yeah you can do what you want but it'll be that much harder to play the game you once loved and the Fantasy models are still super expensive unless you buy from other companies or on ebay now which you should as a big '**** YOU!' to GW for doing what they did.

no constant grimdark BS

Pardon? Are we still.. talking about warhammer fantasy?

Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

Then relate to the free people.. Or anyone else BESIDES the stormcast which are ONE FACTION, honestly at this point half your points are understood, but you keep trotting them out like they are your discussions answer to everything while ignoring anything and everything else.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Yeah, yeah and throw way too much 40k grim dark space marines into Fantasy. You know what was good about Fantasy? It was the fact it was significantly different to 40k. No space marines, no constant grimdark BS, no main good guy faction on the same terms as the top bad guys and no good guys that wished they could be as good as other good guys. Every faction felt relevant rather than stormcast being the good guys everybody wish they could be or baddies wanting to be Chaos that normally never would (skaven). Dear lord do you guys even understand half of my points? Joe shmoe's battle can't be related to when he's a roided up super human in power armor than when he's a squishy normal man that could die in any horrible way at any time.

Only that you're NOT making actual points. You're not relating to Joe as you don't see him getting the chance of doing something he'd not be able to do but needed to as something good. At the end of the day you just want him to languish and suffer while you are pleasing yourself at said "humane" torment. But give him a fighting chance his bad. Nevermind that he'll still have a high likelihood of suffering a horrible death and an even worse fate afterwards, because the gak he's thrown at has gotten worse. He's stronger now thanks to a god. feth HIM!
AoS doesn't throw you a constant stream of the same tone. It has its upbeat moments like the defense of phoenicium. It has moments of grim desperation like the assaults on chamon and aqshy too.
Stormcasts appear often enough but ALL the factions are relevant. The maw gate on ghur fell due to the Ironjaws' interventions. freeing a massive swathe of territory. The forces of Alarielle were fundamental in retaking the realm of life. Greywater Fastness, a simbol of hope of the realms, was defended by bogstandard humans and dwarfs, succeeding by a hair's breath as they pulled their trap. Not in a single point on season of war's lore Stormcasts are mentioned. And it was a big event.

.

Inconsequential butthurt and ranting.

So basically you don't know what you're talking about. Fine. DON'T TALK ABOUT BALANCE THEN. At least have the decency to look a bit on how things are before speaking out of your arssse.

Oh and don't take Kirby's words as worth more than something the cat threw up. End Times saw an increase in sales and i saw this myself and partly this is what bothered me about AoS because after spending 200 dollars or so to stay relevant they murdered Fantasy some months after. Why do you guys get such ****s and giggles for trolling Fantasy players? I realize you guys had a rough start but GW crapped on Fantasy. I'm sorry if they gave you a hard time but they murdered our game to give you yours. Had GW not done that you guys could do whatever you want including playing a game a flicking testicles and i wouldn't have cared. It's your money and your choice. What bothered me was how they delivered all this and how they handled it. It was a massive **** you to Fantasy players and they didn't even give us an option to play Fantasy after the average person threw down a thousand USD to play their Fantasy game.

Yeah, let's not take the word of the company's CEO who more than likely had more data than your local enviroment or, hell, me going through half the country this year. You're right, your store makes 99% of GW's revenue and/ anything that happened there is the source of GW's data or the template that ALL stores will follow. They gave you an option to play their new version of the Fantasy game without the need of shelling more cash (unless you wanted to). It was a massive fruck you to people who wanted to take it as such. Shinros and Klatz and a whole bunch of people played Fantasy before and don't go around lambasting AoS.

I'm not even going to bother the ton of things to point out from the rest of the comment.

Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

AoS is the best thing that could have happened for GW's fantasy line - period.

 oni wrote:
AoS is the best thing that could have happened for GW's fantasy line - period.

Now, that's not really the truth. It was a good thing given the current state (and I'm not really complaining about it) but I'm pretty sure it would have been an even better thing had they decided to take good measures from the get go rather than let the game wither away for 2 editions.

Good measures would have simply been promoting the game with advertisements and video game support. AOS was simply not necessary until they bloated and killed WFB. As has been stated by SEVERAL posters on here, the 6th Ed. era didn't have any issues with new players. It was 7th-8th that destroyed the playerbase. So yeah, publicising the game is what would have saved it. I'm wondering how much it'd cost to get the guys on Big Bang Theory to play the game on an episode? If they are even half as geeky as their characters, they'd probably do it for free. You couldn't GET better advertising. Look how much geek culture is mainstream today simply because of TV. ESPN 2 running M:TG tourneys on TV helped immensely with their player base, same could be done here.

 Just Tony wrote:
Good measures would have simply been promoting the game with advertisements and video game support. AOS was simply not necessary until they bloated and killed WFB. As has been stated by SEVERAL posters on here, the 6th Ed. era didn't have any issues with new players. It was 7th-8th that destroyed the playerbase. So yeah, publicising the game is what would have saved it. I'm wondering how much it'd cost to get the guys on Big Bang Theory to play the game on an episode? If they are even half as geeky as their characters, they'd probably do it for free. You couldn't GET better advertising. Look how much geek culture is mainstream today simply because of TV. ESPN 2 running M:TG tourneys on TV helped immensely with their player base, same could be done here.

You mean it already had video game support. Or are we going to ignore Shadows of the horned rat, Dark Omen, Mark Of Chaos with expansion, and Warhammer Online? There was a few other games but I can't really remember them.

You have those, but at the same time how many 40K players trace their start in this hobby to Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, or Rites of War? Mark of Chaos should have been able to bring in people, for the life of me I don't know why it wouldn't have. WOL was a failure if I remember correctly, something about going up against the world's larges MMORPG or something like that.


Still doesn't change the fact that some advertising would have went a long way. Do you think AOS would benefit from some mainstream advertising?

Apparently its selling better than wfb has in years. Especially state side. New setting. Easier rules. Lower price point for getting in.

AoS may not be popular every where. But neither was wfb.

Gw wont role back to the old setting. Nuking it freedom from alot of old copywrite and royality issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also nothing stopping people from playing games in the old setting.

 Just Tony wrote:
You have those, but at the same time how many 40K players trace their start in this hobby to Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, or Rites of War? Mark of Chaos should have been able to bring in people, for the life of me I don't know why it wouldn't have. WOL was a failure if I remember correctly, something about going up against the world's larges MMORPG or something like that.


Still doesn't change the fact that some advertising would have went a long way. Do you think AOS would benefit from some mainstream advertising?

Warhammer Online was poorly funded and thrown out before even two of the classes was made, EA botched it hard but it's memorable considering it was a triple AAA developer doing it.

But let's be honest, nobody expected future games to be better for WHFB, Total Warhammer could've been as bad as Rome 2 at the start, The Skaven one could've been unmemorable and likewise for the rest. Also People Remember Chaos Gate and Rites of War?

And GW is attempting it now, considering such, the main issue is that they are starting it up after nearly a decade of failure to understand either the market or their playerbase. Their community site and Facebook team is surprisingly good at what they do.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

Thats not what I have heard. Which brings up another great point - none of us know wtf is going on in the Ivory Tower. But trying to keep attaching that moron's words from years ago to today is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. When he said it a few years ago, absolutely! Today? Not so much.

 auticus wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

Thats not what I have heard. Which brings up another great point - none of us know wtf is going on in the Ivory Tower. But trying to keep attaching that moron's words from years ago to today is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. When he said it a few years ago, absolutely! Today? Not so much.

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=643872&privcapId=28819

https://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/

He IS the non-executive chairman. And considering his job's profile usually includes evaluating and "advising" about board (and sometimes determining whether or not someone is good for the charge or not) he still has a say in it, albeit an indirect one.

Sure, but GW's past year has been actively doing things that Kirby directly opposed, so I'd say his indirect advising is either being ignored, or he has realized that he is a moron and has changed his tune.

 auticus wrote:
Sure, but GW's past year has been actively doing things that Kirby directly opposed, so I'd say his indirect advising is either being ignored, or he has realized that he is a moron and has changed his tune.

To my understanding there were rumors that Rountree was trying (and did) to hold meetings without him. Which speaks volumes of the Kirby.

I feel it too.. this could be in the "is games workshop doing better" thread..

But it seemed like at the end that Kirby was trying to do everything possible to kill the company..
With that.. breaking up the magazine in to two different ones when other publishers are cutting back
on the print side of their operations..Then when everyone stopped buying them, having to retreat back.

You look at AoS with the destroyed world is similar what TSR did to Greyhawk the original Dungeons and Dragons
world and did a series called "after the ashes"...or something like that.. the game tanked and we rarely hear
about the world anymore..
Then look at 4th edition D&D.. there is nothing wrong with it .. solid simple system.. just like AoS.. but it
broke up the community causing a rift that is finally closing with the new 5th edition giving what EVERYONE want.
I don't think Games Workshop will backpedal, but if a game is released towards previous fans that loved it
there is a problem when droves walk away from it.. you want new and old to buy your product..so get it right
the first time.. Even with the release of the Generals handbook.. it is more of a missed opportunity because
that book should have been with the original release.
Even Games Workshop has went down this path before.. Epic was one of the Flagship brands and was
the top three of their games.. It was 40k, Warhammer and Epic.. Then GW had the bright idea of a new
edition they released all new models off scale, new base types and over simplified rules..sounds familiar?
It killed the game and it was dropped..I guess we could be happy we still see AoS on the shelves because
they could have just dropped it..
But with the End Times it made everyone excited about the game again and felt is was a kick in the bad
area of your pants when it ended with nothing. then replaced with an incomplete game..

But we saw the same with the new Ghostbusters; where it was mishandled by management and almost
killed the franchise.. and warhammer / AoS is a franchise.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

Thats not what I have heard. Which brings up another great point - none of us know wtf is going on in the Ivory Tower. But trying to keep attaching that moron's words from years ago to today is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. When he said it a few years ago, absolutely! Today? Not so much.

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=643872&privcapId=28819

https://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/

He IS the non-executive chairman. And considering his job's profile usually includes evaluating and "advising" about board (and sometimes determining whether or not someone is good for the charge or not) he still has a say in it, albeit an indirect one.

"non-executive chairman,"

Just gonna point out really quickly that the "Non-Executive Chairman" position in a company is wahts know as being promoted out of a job. Basically he is in a powerless position in the company and the only reason he is there is because they could not fire him. They basically just tucked him into a corner and he has no real say.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Kirby is no longer relevant. What he said when he said the jewels of abject wonder or whatever malarkey is attributed was pertinent when he said that and if he was still making those decisions.

He is not any longer.

Auticus. Kirby IS still relevant, since he's still in the board and is actually coordinating its actions.

Thats not what I have heard. Which brings up another great point - none of us know wtf is going on in the Ivory Tower. But trying to keep attaching that moron's words from years ago to today is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. When he said it a few years ago, absolutely! Today? Not so much.

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=643872&privcapId=28819

https://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/

He IS the non-executive chairman. And considering his job's profile usually includes evaluating and "advising" about board (and sometimes determining whether or not someone is good for the charge or not) he still has a say in it, albeit an indirect one.

"non-executive chairman,"

Just gonna point out really quickly that the "Non-Executive Chairman" position in a company is wahts know as being promoted out of a job. Basically he is in a powerless position in the company and the only reason he is there is because they could not fire him. They basically just tucked him into a corner and he has no real say.

In my experience it has a bit of variety. Yeah, it's more or less that but not always and in not the same intensity. Plus the guy is still a rather relevant shareholder of the company who's more than likely placed 95% of the directive board. Rountree still needs to do a cleanup to get over all the gak the guy has thrown.