-Loki- wrote: Looks good, but then so did Prometheus.
My thoughts exactly. We don't have Damon Lindelof writing this time, so I am cautiously optimistic.
This. On the special features of Prometheus you could pinpoint when the project went tits up and it was the moment the studio sent Lindelof to replace the original writer.
I'm sure it will be an entertaining flick, but its unlikely it will become some kind of new favorite of mine. A few years ago Ridley Scott said the alien was old, no longer scary and he had no interest in doing more of the same. Now hes backtracked and made this. So what is this quackery. Hr Gigers influence and bio mechanics are all but gone. The shower scene looks like an immense cliche.
Prometheus may have been really dodgy and had some bad moments. But it set the stage for something really unique and special to come after. But instead we are getting another Alien movie.
A cast including james franco and danny mcbride already has me nervous. So far Blade Runner remains my #1 anticipated movie this year.
No idea what to make of this trailer honestly. The cuts from stepping on the spore pods to seeing some kind of something floating into David's (?) ear are causing Prometheus flashbacks. It's hard to sympathize with characters doing stupid things who should know better. Maybe we are supposed to root for the xenomorph(s)? The lack of Noomi Rapace is also unsettling, indicating Prometheus unanswered questions may just linger.
Manchu wrote: It's hard to sympathize with characters doing stupid things who should know better.
Yeah I'm hoping there is some context for what we are seeing that makes people seem a bit less purely foolish. I am wondering if the the ship that is found is the one from Prometheus that had Michael Fassbinder and Noomi Rapace on it. I hope not as crash landed ship would be somewhat boring again.
If it follows the comics at all that's the same planet and crashed ship not Too much later and that jungle has grown out of nowhere because of the black goo stuff getting out and contaminating the lands and making stuff mutate and evolve.
Manchu wrote: It's hard to sympathize with characters doing stupid things who should know better.
Yeah I'm hoping there is some context for what we are seeing that makes people seem a bit less purely foolish. I am wondering if the the ship that is found is the one from Prometheus that had Michael Fassbinder and Noomi Rapace on it. I hope not as crash landed ship would be somewhat boring again.
Plot summary on wiki says that's what's happening. They find what appears to be an uninhabited planet, but come across David from Prometheus (with their own Fassbender android, Walter).
Manchu wrote: It's hard to sympathize with characters doing stupid things who should know better.
Yeah I'm hoping there is some context for what we are seeing that makes people seem a bit less purely foolish. I am wondering if the the ship that is found is the one from Prometheus that had Michael Fassbinder and Noomi Rapace on it. I hope not as crash landed ship would be somewhat boring again.
Plot summary on wiki says that's what's happening. They find what appears to be an uninhabited planet, but come across David from Prometheus (with their own Fassbender android, Walter).
So they finally broke the Andriod Alphabet.
I mean that, in order, the androids have been called Ash, Bishop, Call and David.
It looks okay, but you can never tell with trailers. The shower scene was kind of clichéd, but it also reminded me of the scene near the end of Alien.
To be honest, Danny Mcbride is the only reason I'm going to give this movie a shot.
I despise Prometheus with a passion that most would reserve for a man who killed thier father and I sadly see a lot of the same in this trailer.
Technology that doesnt fit the timeline of the universe, morons walking around without helmets on alien planets caise you know bacteria isn't a thing, and a new David to go all sociopath on them cause reasons!
But god damnit that man is my weakness, damn you Mcbride... wait, Francos in this too? ... damnit yeah lemme save the date.
Honestly, the movie looks like garbage. Everything that I liked about Prometheus (and I liked it when I first watched it in theaters, and have grown to like it a lot more) such as the new setting and the engineers, seems to be gone and replaced with the same Alien cliches we've had for years.
I don't know that I would blame Ridley Scott for this direction though, there was a massive outcry from fans that there wasn't enough "Alien" in Prometheus, so it's likely the studio is telling Scott to fill it up with more of the same. It's shame if that's the case, because you aren't giving the fans anything new, and are essentially murdering the story from Prometheus that some fans enjoyed and that did have potential to give us something new.
-Loki- wrote: I've got no problems with Danny McBride or James Franco. Might be interesting seeing Danny McBride in a serious role, and get eaten by an Alien.
I have no problem with either of them, in general. I love Eastbound & Down and Vice Principals. That being said I stand by my concern that Danny McBride is a poor for for thir this movie - I've really never seen him do a serious role. If he does a great job I will be the first to say so but I think it's a bad omen.
I have no concerns about James Franco, who I think has shown he is pretty versatile.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Honestly, the movie looks like garbage. Everything that I liked about Prometheus (and I liked it when I first watched it in theaters, and have grown to like it a lot more) such as the new setting and the engineers, seems to be gone and replaced with the same Alien cliches we've had for years.
Yes, this is easily my favorite film franchise, but man has it been rudderless. One good movie, one great movie, and then miss after miss after miss.
Ouze wrote: Yes, this is easily my favorite film franchise, but man has it been rudderless. One good movie, one great movie, and then miss after miss after miss.
I liked 3. I also preferred 1 over 2. But certainly after that it's been quite a poor offering.
While I don't disagree with most of the points raised the one about the technology was addressed. In Prometheus the project is massively funded and had the best tech available whereas Alien was a bunch of space truckers. This one seems to have colonists with something in between. Hopefully they aren't a bunch of complete idiots that constantly make monumentally stupid errors just to keep the plot moving.
I know we talked about it before but it still hurts when you think about the potential Prometheus had versus what was actually done with it.
I think I'm in the minority here... I loved Prometheus.
I think people were hoping for more Xenomorphs and more about that ancient race... rather than some 'umies stupidly mucking around things they have no idea about.
The "extraction procedure" in Noomi scene was wicked.
Jehan-reznor wrote:I was expecting a sequel to Prometheus, this just looks like a remake - relaunch of the original movie
It looks to me like they're using the sequel to do a franchise relaunch, what with the premise of the sequel basically being identical to the original film.
Jehan-reznor wrote:I was expecting a sequel to Prometheus, this just looks like a remake - relaunch of the original movie
It looks to me like they're using the sequel to do a franchise relaunch, what with the premise of the sequel basically being identical to the original film.
Sequels to prequels that segue back into the original franchise - so hot right now.
whembly wrote: I think I'm in the minority here... I loved Prometheus.
I think people were hoping for more Xenomorphs and more about that ancient race... rather than some 'umies stupidly mucking around things they have no idea about.
The "extraction procedure" in Noomi scene was wicked.
Aliens 2 was my fav, followed by 3 and 1.
Nah - I liked Prometheus too. This doesn't look like Prometheus 2 though. This looks like crap.
whembly wrote: I think I'm in the minority here... I loved Prometheus.
I think people were hoping for more Xenomorphs and more about that ancient race... rather than some 'umies stupidly mucking around things they have no idea about.
The "extraction procedure" in Noomi scene was wicked.
Aliens 2 was my fav, followed by 3 and 1.
Nah - I liked Prometheus too. This doesn't look like Prometheus 2 though. This looks like crap.
Hey... the trailers on Premetheus looked ridiculously awesome... which tanked.
Maybe they got it right this time as evidenced by this crappy trailer?
whembly wrote: I think I'm in the minority here... I loved Prometheus.
I think people were hoping for more Xenomorphs and more about that ancient race... rather than some 'umies stupidly mucking around things they have no idea about.
The "extraction procedure" in Noomi scene was wicked.
Aliens 2 was my fav, followed by 3 and 1.
Nah - I liked Prometheus too. This doesn't look like Prometheus 2 though. This looks like crap.
Hey... the trailers on Premetheus looked ridiculously awesome... which tanked.
Maybe they got it right this time as evidenced by this crappy trailer?
I can only hope!
I don't see how this could actually be good because is the same dang movie. I'll probably see it. Most likely it will suck.
This looks like a rehash of Prometheus, which wasn't very good to begin with. It is possible they've improved on the source material, but given Ridley Scott's track record of late, I doubt it. Gonna skip this one until I hear something positive from reliable sources.
Thoughts and questions....
The spores transforming the host reminds me of an old Alien3 script that may still be floating about the web somewhere.
Looks like there are face huggers as well as spores, so probably at least two different types of Xenomorph.
David/Walter in the white room looking out on the planet makes me think of Flynns rooms in the last Tron film. Could it be some kind of cyberspace construct where the two androids interact?
Kinda related, does David have a new body now or is he still just a head? Could he take over or share Walters body?
They find some dog tags in Xenomorph goo, are they Shaws?
The planet looks a lot like the early Earth from the start of Prometheus. A living world that's been Xenoformed is probably not a place you want to land
Feels like a normal alien movie. Not sure if I'll see it in theatres or not. Maybe I'll try and make it through prometheus one more time. Because It's been 3 tries where I've lost interest or fallen asleep.
Hulksmash wrote: Feels like a normal alien movie. Not sure if I'll see it in theatres or not. Maybe I'll try and make it through prometheus one more time. Because It's been 3 tries where I've lost interest or fallen asleep.
Sounds like me with Blade Runner. That movie puts me out like a light every time. I must be the only nerd not to have seen it but it's not through lack of trying
I'm the same way about Blade Runner. I get it. I like the story. I know what makes it so cool.. but I just can't sit through it, it bores me nearly to tears. It's like reading the Lord of the Rings for the first time... cool story, but math textbooks are more exciting.
If you thought the books were boring, try watching the movies.
They put me to sleep faster than NyQuil. I've tried to watch them 3 times, to see what friends were raving about - but fell asleep at the same points each time. About an hour in, I doze off.
Prometheus with the deleted scenes makes the movie make much more sense. The editing may have been done for pacing/runtime, but it butchered the flow.
Agree about the Prometheus deleted scenes. After watching at the cinema initially, then the home version about 6 months later it felt like something was missing. Then I saw some of the deleted scenes and saw that was the case!
The scene in particular where the Engineer first wakes up - the cinema version had David speaking in an ancient tongue, which the alien considers for a moment before grimmacing and ripping the android's head off. The home version skipped the communication part, and it gave the engineer the feel of a mindless murderer, rather than an intelligent being feeling a deep intellectual dislike for what it was hearing and seeing (which I believe was what they were trying to convey)
In any case, new Alien film, it's all re-treading old ground now isn't it and we'll never feel the shock again that cinemas in 1979 felt, but no doubt it will have good production values and hopefully a few good 'yuk' or jump from seat moments!
Just give me more Alien vs Predator movies. (But better this time)
I'd like this.
How hard is it to make a good Alien vs Predator movie? Not that hard. Just take the opening of premise of Aliens, add some Predator halfway through and let it play out with no contrivance. There we go solved
It seems it is fairly hard to make a good AvP film since there have only been two so far and both were fairly awful movies. It should be easy but apparently it isn't.
Ahtman wrote: It seems it is fairly hard to make a good AvP film since there have only been two so far and both were fairly awful movies. It should be easy but apparently it isn't.
I feel like the games pulled it off better than the movies, it should have always been set in the future...not present day...because then it becomes a cliche monster movie. The whole entire idea itself is kind of cheesy though, and I personally have no desire to ever see another AvP film. There is no plot or point to it, they are just carelessly jammed into the movie for the sake of violent action fight scenes.
The original* premise of Yautja using Xenomorphs as a prey species in their young's right of passage is fine with me, it's just not translated to screen very well, or not even attempted in some cases.
The first AvP was fine I thought. The second one was just weird survival horror that changed so many of the "rules" of the aliens just to make the movie work.
Looks like it could be fun, but another member was right: this looks like a rehash of Aliens. At least Prometheus tried some new ideas, even if it sucked.
I'll probably watch this on Red Box, but not expecting much.
AduroT wrote: The first AvP was fine I thought. The second one was just weird survival horror that changed so many of the "rules" of the aliens just to make the movie work.
Enjoyed both AVP films - not as good as the first Graphic novel but good. Predator films are all great.
Prometheus was a major major disappointment - really enjoyed David as someone disappointed in his creators but he was the only character that actually seemed interesting.
Charlize Theron as Meredith Vickers was completely and utterly wasted in favour of a bunch of laughably stupid "explorers" and without a decent security (kill team) detachment to keep an eye on them and secure the site or indeed a corporation frigate trailing them as apparently the rusk bucket they travel in has no weapons. She makes two decisions in the whole film and they get ignored.
Disappointed Elizabeth still seems to be around - hell she was annoying.
The new trailer looks ok, nothing special - if it is just a rehash of Aliens that could however be good . Sadly just looks like another bunch of idiots in a crap ship find the Aliens and die.
I though AVP1 was mediocre but not bad. Just lowest common denominator all around. At the end of the day the whole point of the crossover is to see two bad ass alien monsters go head to head and AVP1 just didn't have enough of that. Too much time was spent on idiot human characters we knew from the get go were doomed to die. The original comic book would also have made a good movie adaptation and that's what they seemed to go with in the film, but they completely changed the setting and major plot points and it didn't work.
AVPR I don't think was as bad as some people make it out to be. It gave me what I really wanted (predator vs alien) but that film also spent too much time on even dumber humans, and the screen was always (always) too damn dark. You could barely see half the action because the the entire film was filmed with a gamma somewhere in the range of "almost zero."
I almost feel like a good director and writer team could make a really good AVP film with no focus on humans at all. Just focus on the Alien and the Predator and use rudimentary sounds, body language, and atmosphere to communicate their inner thoughts. It could be a really interesting movie but it's way to adventurous and risky a venture for any studio to undertake. To me the only humans who aren't mere cannon fodder in this scenario are Colonial Marines (and most of them will still be cannon fodder), and they were completely absent from both films.
The lack of movies about the Colonial Marines is a whole other crime against cinema.
Jehan-reznor wrote:I was expecting a sequel to Prometheus, this just looks like a remake - relaunch of the original movie
It looks to me like they're using the sequel to do a franchise relaunch, what with the premise of the sequel basically being identical to the original film.
Sequels to prequels that segue back into the original franchise - so hot right now.
The correct term is Interquel.
But I agree, soft reboots are on the up dramatically in the past few years. You get to make a remake without actually making a remake.
So an official prologue was released yesterday or so... I know it doesn't exactly show much but, it's something and it looks like we may have an interesting film from multiple fronts.
Nostromodamus wrote: The original* premise of Yautja using Xenomorphs as a prey species in their young's right of passage is fine with me, it's just not translated to screen very well, or not even attempted in some cases.
*As in the books.
That was also in the old dark horse comics stories.
There are like ... nine? Aliens books published by Dark Horse. And them there are Predator novels. Then there are Aliens v Predator novels. All the ones I have read ... something like 15 or 16 ... are based on Dark Horse comics. The newer novels (published by Titan rather than Dark Horse) are not based on comics.
Frazzled wrote: So David is a synthetic along to help the colonists like Bishop. Interesting. Any excuse for a good Fassbender role.
I mean, it is a staple of ALL Weyland-Yutani vessels.
Well, synthetics seem to have a pretty shaky reputation in the Aliens universe lol. We'll see if this "David" model ends up performing any experiments on the crew for this one lol.
Frazzled wrote: So David is a synthetic along to help the colonists like Bishop. Interesting. Any excuse for a good Fassbender role.
I mean, it is a staple of ALL Weyland-Yutani vessels.
Well, synthetics seem to have a pretty shaky reputation in the Aliens universe lol. We'll see if this "David" model ends up performing any experiments on the crew for this one lol.
Bishop explained about Ash being an old, 'twitchy' model and he himself did absolutely nothing wrong. Call in Resserection did nothing wrong.
David seemed to have the same problems Ash did, and coming in before Ash, would be explained by Bishops mention of earlier models.
angelofvengeance wrote: Not sure if the new Alien game (Ripley's daughter) counts as canon, but in that one, they're all crazy!
It is canon, and the Working Joes in that game are a far more simpler type of Andriod which is controlled by Apollo.
Also, they aren't all crazy until later on, as long as you obey protocol they'll leave you alone. It's only once they get the kill order that they all go Gaga.
-Loki- wrote: David seemed to have the same problems Ash did, and coming in before Ash, would be explained by Bishops mention of earlier models.
I think David in Prometheus wasn't so much as twitchy, as he was acting under poorly designed rules... Like, if he was given code to be scientific and always experiment, then his infecting the Dr. through the drink was a perfectly "normal" means of his programming. As no one had set foot on the planet before, David, Mr. Weyland, and Ms. Vickers had no way of knowing what was down there, and therefore David shouldn't have had the same conflicting order as Ash, to ensure a "sample" being brought back.
Nostromodamus wrote: But the Queen did not have time to begin a hive and develop a new egg sac on the Sulaco, so something else must have carried it on.
Lol, she probably have one egg left, like that last bit of poo that desperately hangs on
Nostromodamus wrote: But the Queen did not have time to begin a hive and develop a new egg sac on the Sulaco, so something else must have carried it on.
Lol, she probably have one egg left, like that last bit of poo that desperately hangs on
Supposedly a face-hugger (not a whole egg) had gotten aboard the dropship when the Queen hitched a lift. It presumably scurries off and hides during the power-loader/Queen fistfight (and subsequent airlock door opening). Of course, we never see any signs of this in Aliens itself, because it was never supposed to have a third movie follow on after it.
But some studios just can't leave well enough alone...
Exactly. It spawns a hugger which then burns through Ripley's cryo-tube and impregnates her.
Oh, er, spoilers...
It's probably the most hated scene in the entire series.
The first time I showed it to my girlfriend and her brother (straight after aliens, due to a binge watching session.) we had to have a break for tea because it annoyed them both so much.
I personally hope Covenant does well, I really want another good Alien movie after the first two, but from what I've heard from my more cynical but realistic friends, it may end up being the worst of both worlds: a convoluted, hard to follow plot like Prometheus, but a very predictable "dumb people die" gorn style movie. Basically Xenomorph fanservice.
Also, I'm fairly torn, but overall rather cautious about this whole "neomorph" thing. I'm not sure a GSC crossover is what we need
Nevelon wrote: It’s been a while since I saw it, but IIRC Aliens 3 wasn’t a bad movie but it was an atrocioussequel.
As a standalone, with no prior history, it holds together well. Closer to the first movie then the second.
But the set up is hot garbage, and pisses all over the ending on the second movie.
IMO it was pretty legitimately bad on it's own merits. It would be hard to find any movie that didn't suck after that long in development hell.
So far as Covenant goes - Aliens, Predator and Terminator have spawned 15 movies of which 5 were good. That's pretty bad odds even before I saw James Franco and Danny McBride.
Alien3 was kind of decent on its own merits. Interesting set up, decent acting (and actors) and quite a few good twists and turns.
It just wasn't all that scary, the alien didn't look at good because they kept cgi in the thing, it doesn't flow from the prequel and it is kind of cliched.
I also kind of enjoy alien resurrection, I just feel like it could have used better direction.
And the newborn sucked, how was that an improvement over the old method?
welshhoppo wrote: Alien3 was kind of decent on its own merits. Interesting set up, decent acting (and actors) and quite a few good twists and turns.
It just wasn't all that scary, the alien didn't look at good because they kept cgi in the thing, it doesn't flow from the prequel and it is kind of cliched.
I also kind of enjoy alien resurrection, I just feel like it could have used better direction.
And the newborn sucked, how was that an improvement over the old method?
I think the fact that it was made by a crazy scientist explains it lol.
Really? Huh. Oh well, I guess I don't remember that movie as well as I thought I did. Of course, having only watched it twice (and twenty years ago at that) I'm not surprised that the memory fails me.
I really like Alien 3 (the Assembly Cut). Aliens, my all-time favorite movie, is a really tough act to follow; not only because it is so wonderful in itself but also because people definitely wanted more. What they got instead was a moody, darkly weird picture with a sad ending. But putting aside the jarring misalignment between what the market expected and what Fox delivered, Alien 3 is actually probably more relevant than any action-packed riff on Aliens could have been simply because it convincingly ties out the story of Ripley.
As much as I love Aliens, the truth is that Cameron really "used up" the xenomorph - which is why he needed to invent the queen in the first place. One theme of Aliens is, however terrifying the xenomorphs might be, human beings are ultimately scarier and tougher. Along that theme, but also subverting it, most of the characters in Alien 3 are thieves, rapists, murderers, and child molesters. But they are also imprisoned and unarmed. Note also that the xenomorph is less anthropomorphic than Big Chap or even the homind-cum-insectoid warriors of Aliens. The so-called "Dragon" of Alien 3 is more bestial: a personification of the sins of its prey.
Ripley joins these sinners in hell - or brings judgment on them? Or salvation?
Manchu wrote: I really like Alien 3 (the Assembly Cut). Aliens, my all-time favorite movie, is a really tough act to follow; not only because it is so wonderful in itself but also because people definitely wanted more. What they got instead was a moody, darkly weird picture with a sad ending. But putting aside the jarring misalignment between what the market expected and what Fox delivered, Alien 3 is actually probably more relevant than any action-packed riff on Aliens could have been simply because it convincingly ties out the story of Ripley.
As much as I love Aliens, the truth is that Cameron really "used up" the xenomorph - which is why he needed to invent the queen in the first place. One theme of Aliens is, however terrifying the xenomorphs might be, human beings are ultimately scarier and tougher. Along that theme, but also subverting it, most of the characters in Alien 3 are thieves, rapists, murderers, and child molesters. But they are also imprisoned and unarmed. Note also that the xenomorph is less anthropomorphic than Big Chap or even the homind-cum-insectoid warriors of Aliens. The so-called "Dragon" of Alien 3 is more bestial: a personification of the sins of its prey.
Ripley joins these sinners in hell - or brings judgment on them? Or salvation?
Certainly looks interesting... I wonder if the ID badge is from the Covenant crew, or if that ship is the one that old David hijacked with Shaw at the end of Prometheus???
Certainly looks promising! Always strikes me as silly why they arrive on these planets without completely enclosed space suits, they're kind of asking for it!
welshhoppo wrote: I think I briefly saw the Wayland Yutani logo on the ID badge.
It could be good I guess, then again (I enjoyed Prometheus) so what do I know?
I thought the company was just Weyland in Prometheus, that the merger happened sometime closer to Alien/Aliens....
I also enjoyed Prometheus, and not to drag the thread off topic, I think part of it is that I listened to the directors and understood the movie on their terms: a movie that happens before the events of LV 426, but is not a direct prequel to them, while still happening in the same universe... Like, the strain of Xenomorph we see on LV 426 is one that was actually used, it was rarely used (which is why we see the xenomorph elsewhere in the universe), and the people who created it, the Engineers, had their stockpile that was discovered by Prometheus. Which partially explains to me why the xenomorph transition in Prometheus is different from what it is in Alien(s)/Alien 3 and Resurrection, AVP and all the other films/media they appear in.
Hulksmash wrote: God I hope it's watchable. Is it sad that AvP 2 was more watchable than Prometheus?
I disagree, I believe AvP2 is the most unwatchable film I've ever had to deal with. It felt like it was written by a bunch of edgelords who thought putting in over the top horrible stuff and explicitly showing it, rather than even just implying it happened, would make the film better somehow. I stopped watching after the maternity ward part and never finished the film since.
New trailer looks good. Looking forward to more alienses. Not expecting anything ground breaking or profound. It's just gonna be a movie about aliens killing people, luckily I don't have any problem turning my brain off to enjoy the action.. in fact, my GF will tell you it's always off by default.
Hulksmash wrote: God I hope it's watchable. Is it sad that AvP 2 was more watchable than Prometheus?
I disagree, I believe AvP2 is the most unwatchable film I've ever had to deal with. It felt like it was written by a bunch of edgelords who thought putting in over the top horrible stuff and explicitly showing it, rather than even just implying it happened, would make the film better somehow. I stopped watching after the maternity ward part and never finished the film since.
Yup, Prometheus is much more watchable than AvP2 imho. That film is the least watchable besides possibly Alien: Resurrection.
I think Resurrection is pretty fun. It's stylish without being pretentious. It sort of reminds me of a Paul Verhoeven film. Conversely, Prometheus is stylish but extremely pretentious. I give Prometheus credit for trying to do something interesting but it never delivers on that promise, and ends up annoying more than entertaining the audience.
Requiem is just a poorly conceived exploitation film. It's closest parallel in the franchises is probably Predator 2. That movie, however, has a weird charm that Requiem totally lacks. The pitch for Requiem is one word ("predalien") and it really shows.
Speaking of predaliens ...
I hate this bogus idea that the xenomorph takes on the traits of its host. It seems to me, this was dreamed up by an executive at Kenner to sell "mantis aliens" and "bull aliens." So in other words, it was at the perfect intellectual level for whoever thought up the predalien.
Hulksmash wrote: God I hope it's watchable. Is it sad that AvP 2 was more watchable than Prometheus?
I disagree, I believe AvP2 is the most unwatchable film I've ever had to deal with. It felt like it was written by a bunch of edgelords who thought putting in over the top horrible stuff and explicitly showing it, rather than even just implying it happened, would make the film better somehow. I stopped watching after the maternity ward part and never finished the film since.
Yup, Prometheus is much more watchable than AvP2 imho. That film is the least watchable besides possibly Alien: Resurrection.
See for me I can turn my brain off for an action movie and just kinda enjoy it for what it is. Most Alien and Predator movies fall into this category. Prometheus tried to be something more than an action movie which kept my brain on and made it impossible for me to watch because I just started to loathe the characters and the non-sensical plot. So for me AvP2 is far more watchable.
Manchu wrote: I hate this bogus idea that the xenomorph takes on the traits of its host. It seems to me, this was dreamed up by an executive at Kenner to sell "mantis aliens" and "bull aliens." So in other words, it was at the perfect intellectual level for whoever thought up the predalien.
Why is it a "bogus" idea?
The Xenomorphs in Alien and Aliens have human traits, but the one in Alien 3 has a more animalistic posture due to it being implanted into a dog/bull (whichever cut you prefer).
This notion was in the movies before the toy line ran with the idea.
It's bogus because it is dumb and transparently exploitative.
Big Chap looks pretty different from the drones in Aliens, despite both being born out of human hosts. As you said, the "runner" in Alien 3 was born out of a dog or a bull - the ambivalence of its origin indicates that its morphology is not really contingent upon that of its host. So in reality, the movies do not account for the notion that a given xenomorph takes on host traits ... I don't know who originated that idea, but it's not presented to us on screen. It was the explicit basis of the 1990s Kenner toyline.
The changing shape of the alien can be explained in more convincing terms. For example, an individual's morphology depends on the circumstances of its inception. Big Chap was "born" alone - it needed to be bigger and tougher. The drones were born in a hive environment where the imperative was to build and protect the nest rather than survive alone. The runner was conceived parallel to a queen; perhaps it is a "harbinger" morph, evolved to clear the way for the nascent queen.
I first remember it being brought forth in the Aliens books from the 90's. I remember seeing those before they did the toys but I could be wrong. I could have sworn the books were before the toys that came with comics but meh.
Well the novels published by Dark Horse were based on the comics published by the same and those certainly began before the toy line. But I don't recall "mantis aliens" or the like in any of those. Nor do host-based morphs appear in the new continuity published by Titan. The predalien first appeared several years after the toy line, in a 1995 AvP comic series.
Pacific wrote: Always strikes me as silly why they arrive on these planets without completely enclosed space suits, they're kind of asking for it!
I imagine the planet was scanned and considered quite a bit before they landed. I can't imagine colonists just randomly picking a planet without knowing about it. Things changed when the other ship landed it seems. Hopefully.
Manchu wrote: And yet they did not know about the wheat until landing ....
If you dropped probes onto a handful of points on earth, you’d get a pretty good idea on the atmosphere and climate, but plants/animals in one local might not be in another. And from orbit, it might just look like a field of some grass analog. But walking through it, it’s distinctly wheat.
There is the ship they are shown traveling to the planet on and when they arrive they show them finding a somewhat recently crashed Engineer ship. In the trailer you can see the area around the crashed ship is still, to use the scientific term, smushed. Even the foliage hasn't started growing back yet so the ship couldn't have been there to long.
Manchu wrote: Oh, are you saying that Noomi and David are responsible for the wheat?
That wasn't what was said, and I'm betting you know that so at this point it appears you are just being facetious.
Manchu wrote: And that all the wheat grew after the colonists arrived in-system and scanned the planet from space but before they landed?
Who said it was scanned after they were in the system? You are making a lot of illogical leaps here based on what little has been discussed because...? Fun? Obstinance? Discussing that they might have information about the planet they are colonizing doesn't say anything about when or how, and is just a guess, though again I'm pretty sure you already know this but for some reason are trying to make more out of it than is there.
Also assuming you have seen Alien, Aliens, and Prometheus it isn't really a leap to assume that someone, or something, higher up knows what is there and/or has altered information about the area.
Easy now. I am just trying to figure out how these guys did the appropriate due diligence and yet still didn't know about the wheat, the lack of animal life, the microtoxicology. Because just based on the trailers, I agree with Pacific - it really seems like they aren't ready to walk around on that planet sans some kind of containment suit and quarantine procedures. W-Y (or equivalent evil corp) falsifying data wouldn't matter because, after such a long trip, they would of course take extensive pre-landing scans. So are their scanners broken? Were they forced to land? Those possibilities still don't explain the absence of suits. So are they just letting excitement get the better of them?
The planet could have already been tagged as suitable/safe for humans by probes or survey teams ahead of the Covenant's arrival. Sending a honkingly massive colony ship out into the galaxy in the hope they stumble across a suitable world seems a bit daft to me. Once they arrive there own orbital scans and landers could easily give the Covenant's crew enough information to confirm it was safe. When the entire surface seems to be covered in terrestrial plant life a small amount of wheat could easily be missed. Especially if the odd thing about it is not that its there in the first place, but that there's a field of it. Implying that they are not the first ones there.
Of course the film is probably just operating on hollywood science. So as long as there is a breathable atmosphere there's no need for sealed suits
Going only by the prologue, there are less than twenty colonists in this group. Given such a small number, I'd guess they are there to test the planet's habitability before W-Y or whoever send the real population. Yes absolutely, the planet would have had to have been deemed suitable for human habitation before undertaking the long, dangerous, expensive trip. But like I said, the only reason not to scan the planet before landing is ... broken scanners. If the scanners do work and cannot ID wheat (much less the total absence of complex animal life) they have no chance of IDing harmful microfauna. If the scanners are broken, all the more reason not to galivant in an alien environment willy-nilly.
Remember, this whole question of scanners only comes up because we already know the characters unknowingly contaminate themselves with some kind of alien spores. The issue isn't scanners per se but whether this is yet another movie where people who should be smart act dumb so the story can happen.
Going only by the prologue, there are less than twenty colonists in this group. Given such a small number, I'd guess they are there to test the planet's habitability before W-Y or whoever send the real population. Yes absolutely, the planet would have had to have been deemed suitable for human habitation before undertaking the long, dangerous, expensive trip. But like I said, the only reason not to scan the planet before landing is ... broken scanners. If the scanners do work and cannot ID wheat (much less the total absence of complex animal life) they have no chance of IDing harmful microfauna. If the scanners are broken, all the more reason not to galivant in an alien environment willy-nilly.
Remember, this whole question of scanners only comes up because we already know the characters unknowingly contaminate themselves with some kind of alien spores. The issue isn't scanners per se but whether this is yet another movie where people who should be smart act dumb so the story can happen.
I thought it mentioned or at least heavily implied in the prologue that the ship has some 500 couples or some such, and that the ones we meet are, like every Star Trek series ever, the "important" people who crew the bridge and serve vital roles during transport.
Deep into their mission, the crew is awakened from their cryogenic sleep pods by a mysterious distress signal that is human in origin. That signal leads them to another planet, a paradise that looks far more appealing than their initial destination.
Going only by the prologue, there are less than twenty colonists in this group. Given such a small number, I'd guess they are there to test the planet's habitability before W-Y or whoever send the real population. Yes absolutely, the planet would have had to have been deemed suitable for human habitation before undertaking the long, dangerous, expensive trip. But like I said, the only reason not to scan the planet before landing is ... broken scanners. If the scanners do work and cannot ID wheat (much less the total absence of complex animal life) they have no chance of IDing harmful microfauna. If the scanners are broken, all the more reason not to galivant in an alien environment willy-nilly.
Remember, this whole question of scanners only comes up because we already know the characters unknowingly contaminate themselves with some kind of alien spores. The issue isn't scanners per se but whether this is yet another movie where people who should be smart act dumb so the story can happen.
I thought it mentioned or at least heavily implied in the prologue that the ship has some 500 couples or some such, and that the ones we meet are, like every Star Trek series ever, the "important" people who crew the bridge and serve vital roles during transport.
It's a pretty enormous ship. If they've got 500 couples, my guess is they're in cryosleep until living quarters and such are set up. You don't just dump 1000 people on a strange planet and say 'build everything'.
Manchu wrote: In trying to verify that, I came across this:
Deep into their mission, the crew is awakened from their cryogenic sleep pods by a mysterious distress signal that is human in origin. That signal leads them to another planet, a paradise that looks far more appealing than their initial destination.
Snake Tortoise wrote: It isn't a remake?? That trailer looks exactly like a trailer for an Alien remake would look like. Another pseudo remake like episode 7 then
No, it's a sequel to Prometheus and a prequel to Alien.
Manchu wrote: In trying to verify that, I came across this:
Deep into their mission, the crew is awakened from their cryogenic sleep pods by a mysterious distress signal that is human in origin. That signal leads them to another planet, a paradise that looks far more appealing than their initial destination.
Well then I guess they decided the stupid option was the way to go, though considering the awful choices (behind the scenes) in Prometheus I suppose that shouldn't be a surprise.
Manchu wrote: Controversial statement! AvP2 is a a lot, lot dumber than Prometheus. But Prometheus is ultimately more irritating.
Gosh ... am I really on the verge of defending Prometheus?
Yes
I'd disagree that AvP 2 was "dumber." AvP 2 is well put as "edgelord." AvP 2 wasn't dumb. It was just bad. Cliche driven human characters with too much screen time, aliens that took their whole "rape" theme to a disgusting end, and worst of all the action scenes were constantly shrouded in way too little gamma that makes it impossible at times to make out what is happening even in an already dark theater.
The sad part is that I liked the model of AvP 2 better than AvP. Poor hapless humans caught between warring enemies and struggling to survive without the straight out dumb gimicks of the first film (Antarctica? Pyramids? Ancient Aliens? Come on screen writers your better than this). The humans just bounced from being too dumb to live or too genre savvy, so the film ended up very "by the motions" while the Predator and Alien fights just moved haplessly from set piece to set piece.
I've got mixed feelings on the CGI, i'm rarely a fan of it. In this case it actually does look pretty good. But plenty of movies can look pretty and still suck. I'm still not totally convinced by the cast. I thought some of the crew in Prometheus were a joke especially Fifield or whatever the hell his name was.
But i'm going to go see it no doubt, because there really isn't anything else to see anytime soon.. cept maybe Ghost in the Shell...but that one is dodgy as hell.
There were a couple of shots in the trailer that were extremely brief that did look interesting. I had to pause the trailer a couple times and rewind to get a decent look. I think the movie will be more interesting than the trailer. But i'm not going in expecting anything great, I know better nowadays.
However AVP and AVP 2 are both the definition of bad abomination type movies, i'd rather watch the descent.
Thargrim wrote: I've got mixed feelings on the CGI, i'm rarely a fan of it. In this case it actually does look pretty good. But plenty of movies can look pretty and still suck.
Definitely thought the prosthetics and suits of Aliens were far superior to the CGI of Alien 3. This looks like a fair bit of CGI from the trailer but hopefully they will still stick to rubber masks for the more 'intimate' run-ins with the aliens.
LordofHats wrote: (Antarctica? Pyramids? Ancient Aliens? Come on screen writers your better than this)
See I like all that pulp stuff. I had so much fun playing the AvP game (2010) - which is probably what AvP the movie should have been ... but was likely just too expensive.
Most of the shots of the xenomorph in A3 are practical effects - either puppetry for when you see the whole thing running around or a a guy in the suit for close ups. IIRC there were only a few CGI effects - like when the runner was crawling on the ceiling with an actor in the same shot below. The three methods failed to produce a consistent look. But I mostly like the puppet stuff, especially the restored scene of the cute lil bambi-burster scampering off.
I guess I'm weird in that I really like both AvP and AvP2.
I readily admit that the whole antarctica thing is kinda dumb, but I still like the movie nonetheless. I think AvP2 was a bit better in that at least they went back to canon (according to a buddy of mine who's more read on the universe than me) by having the 3 hunter group.
Even Predator 2 has it's own quirky upsides. Really the only film(s) I don't particularly care for is Alien 3, and Resurrection. And really, the one there that draws my true dislike is Resurrection.
See, I like Resurrection but that's because it basically lifted one my favorite books from the book lines plots line for line and just added in Ripley and a few other curly ques.
I also like Resurrection. Sure, it is cheesy as all hell that they brought back Ripley again - I get the ire on that account. But I love the setting, the style, and the wonderful array of off-beat casting.
Manchu wrote: I also like Resurrection. Sure, it is cheesy as all hell that they brought back Ripley again - I get the ire on that account. But I love the setting, the style, and the wonderful array of off-beat casting.
That would be Joss Whedon's doing. He wrote the script originally, but apparently he wasn't too pleased with the final product either.
Wait. Can we go back to the Mantis Aliens for a second? How the heck did that work? You could shove an entire mantis up the facehugger's ovipositor* and probably still have room to pass the embryo. The smallest I could imagine is a facehugger impregnating a chihuahua*, although that would be quite a stretch. There has to be some other kind of explanation for a Mantis Alien, like kroot-style genetic sampling.
*Please, no one ever create artwork or fiction depicting such an event.
How much of Giger's design survived into the Covenant alien? From the pictures I've seen, the alien looks far too fleshy, like one of the Resurrection aliens.
It was just a toy concept. Kenner never bothered to explain this kind of thing. But yes, this is great example of how the host-based morphology theory/concept is purely that.
So I assume from the trailers that they've essentially rebooted the franchise and married it to Prometheus? I guess that could work as long as they don't try to attach the old franchise somehow like they did to Ghostbusters.
Manchu wrote: See I like all that pulp stuff. I had so much fun playing the AvP game (2010) - which is probably what AvP the movie should have been ... but was likely just too expensive.
Nah I would have loved a movie version of AvP 2010. Wasn't a great game, but it was good enough that if you really liked the premise you'd be able to really enjoy yourself which I did
Breotan wrote: So I assume from the trailers that they've essentially rebooted the franchise and married it to Prometheus? I guess that could work as long as they don't try to attach the old franchise somehow like they did to Ghostbusters.
The Alien franchise is set on a much bigger canvas than something like Ghosbusters though(I still don't know why they couldn't have used that cast to make a proper sequel instead). So far nothing seems to contradict the earlier movies.
Jehan-reznor wrote: How many times are they going to the same planet and getting wiped out before they start to think that going to that planet is a bad idea?
This isn't the same planet as Alien/Aliens or Prometheus.
Then I'm wondering how bad of pilots the Engineers really were, as they seem to have crashed ships all over the cosmos, each one with a hold full of facehugger eggs.
AegisGrimm wrote: Then I'm wondering how bad of pilots the Engineers really were, as they seem to have crashed ships all over the cosmos, each one with a hold full of facehugger eggs.
Unless that's the plan.
Terminally ill Engineers--or Engineers already exposed to facehuggers--pilot the ships, badly, into planets that are habitable...and voila. Instant death trap for future generations!
But then they're setting up death traps for future explorers - presumably some of which will come form planets that they themselves seeded?!?
I've read various things to the effect of Engineers weren't happy with how life on earth was developing so they sent a "bomber" ship full of Alien eggs to wipe us out (they use Xenomorphs as a bio-weapon). However, the pilot got hugged and the ship crashed, that's where the ship on LV-426 comes from at least.
The crash site was on LV-426. An engineer ship did crash on LV-223 but only because the Prometheus rammed it. Presumably, the ship in the Alien Covenant trailer is the one Shaw and David used to escape LV-223.
As for the motives of the engineers, we have three clues: (1) the seemingly religious "ritual" on Earth at the beginning of Prometheus; (2) the ancient star maps on earth; and (3) the disgust/violence registered by the awakened engineer. We can't really even rely on (2) because we don't actually know if the engineers are responsible for them. If they are, I guess there could be various factions of them ... one group who wanted to create a sentient, starfaring race ... and another who would view that race (i.e., us) much the same way we ourselves view the xenomorphs. Or maybe they just changed their minds afterwards, maybe because of whatever happened to the station on LV-223. The main theme of Prometheus seems to be dysfunctional relationships between parents and children.
And it looks like something even worse happened to the engineers on the planet Shaw and David tracked down, which is where Covenant takes place. Is it another case of them finding a dead colony ... or are they somehow responsible?
@Nostromodamus
The old bioweapon payload bomber goes back decades. It's referenced in Prometheus by Shaw, who tells Janek that the awakened engineer is taking the black liquid to seriously eff up earth. IIRC her conclusion is based on a course plotted to earth and the awakened engineer's severe grumpiness. But in truth who knows what the engineer was up to or what any of it was actually about. Did they make xenomorphs? We can't tell from Prometheus. And it doesn't look like the dead engineers in Covenant were killed by xenomorphs - and yet we know there are xenomorphs on that planet. Maybe it's David's doing?
In the week leading up to the release of “Prometheus,” we went into crunch mode. The film’s world premiere and junket had just occurred in London and news outlets were posting their interviews with the stars and crew, but we didn’t want to be spoiled for the mystery-heavy movie. So we ignored most of the stories that came out about the future of Ridley Scott‘s new sci-fi franchise and decided to wait until after the film was released.
Well, “Prometheus” is now out in theaters, the mystery has been revealed, and we’ve learned that the flick has a very sequel-friendly ending. That means that it’s time to go back to all those previously released interviews and find out what Scott and writer Damon Lindelof have in store for us in the future. Collider did most of the heavy lifting for us, compiling quotes from interviews posted on The Hollywood Reporter, Movies.com, and Collider themselves.
“From the very beginning, I was working from a premise that lent itself to a sequel. I really don’t want to meet God in the first one. I want to leave it open to [Noomi Rapace’s character, Dr. Elizabeth Shaw] saying, ‘I don’t want to go back to where I came from. I want to go where they came from,'” Scott told Movies.com.
But Lindelof was always aware that this set-up would have some backlash. “Ridley was very interested in talking about, ‘What are the answers to the questions that Prometheus is posing that are not necessarily definitively spelled out in the body of Prometheus?’ I said to him, we should be prepared for people to feel frustrated if we’re going to be withholding, so we have to be very careful about what we’re saving for later because it’s not a foregone conclusion that there are going to be sequels, and so if there isn’t a sequel, just be comfortable with what we gave them in this movie,” he told THR.
“Prometheus” has gotten a lot of flack for talking about The Big Questions but never actually asking them. But one of the biggest cliffhangers left at the end of the flick is the explanation of why the Engineers wanted to wipe out mankind to begin with.If we read into some of Scott’s comments, that answer could be because humans killed Jesus Christ.
“If you look at it as an ‘our children are misbehaving down there’ scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, ‘Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him,'” Scott told Movies.com.
That Christ assumption is doubly confirmed by the fact that the Prometheus crew determined the Engineers decided to destroy earth about two millennia ago, or around the time Christ was crucified. If we’re to read even more into Scott’s comments, he could be saying that Christ (in his world) was actually an emissary of the Engineers.
Apparently the potential sequel to “Prometheus” could be called “Paradise,” a title that was toyed with for Scott’s planned “Alien” prequel. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Engineers’ home planet is going to be heaven on Earth when Elizabeth Shaw finds it.
“I’d love to explore where the hell [Dr. Shaw] goes next and what does she do when she gets there, because if it is paradise, paradise can not be what you think it is,” Scott told Movies.com. “Paradise has a connotation of being extremely sinister and ominous.”
Maybe the writers themselves don't even know - ala "Lost" (a great name for that series, for many reasons!).
I think thats very accurate - Prometheus is a complete and absolute mess - it mostly looks great - hey its Ridley Scott but it lurches blindly from one massive plot hole to another like the dismal characterisation and as you watch it you are constatly going
" What , Why are they doing that?"
"Thats insane why would anyone.........."
"Seriously you are gopign to bend down and stick your face next to a wierd alien snake creature."
"Stop running forwards and go left you dumb B"
Of course it has similar problems as Lost the studio brought the writer of it in to alter the good script from someone they didn't know and his big ideas for change were to remove the xenomorph and raise questions with no answers. If you watch the special features on the Bluray you can pinpoint when the project went downhill and it is when he is brought out. It isn't always that simple to see when a project is going off the rails but in this case it is actually pretty easy to spot.
I was ok with the idea as it would have at least given the story a perspective and made sense for the world created. It wouldn't have been for all tastes but then neither is the franchise.
Ahtman wrote: Of course it has similar problems as Lost the studio brought the writer of it in to alter the good script from someone they didn't know and his big ideas for change were to remove the xenomorph and raise questions with no answers. If you watch the special features on the Bluray you can pinpoint when the project went downhill and it is when he is brought out. It isn't always that simple to see when a project is going off the rails but in this case it is actually pretty easy to spot.
Yeah, Prometheus looks worse when you read the original Alien: Engineers script. It reveals where certain confusing elements of Prometheus came from, but leaves you more confused as to why the heck they kept them when they changed everything else around them in the transition from an Alien movie to Prometheus. It's kind of bizarre, really.
I haven't watched the special features, so I dunno if they shed any light into what the heck they were thinking.
Real movies inherently cannot measure up to "the movie we didn't get" - which exists only in our imaginations, usually as a conceptualization of our dissatisfaction with the actual film. The script was almost certainly stronger in some ways prior to Lindelof's revisions. But the project had deeper problems. First and foremost, I don't think Sir Ridley ever had any real interest in doing another Alien picture. He has very clearly declared that the xenomorph lost all of its horror and has become just another pop culture icon. Thematically, Prometheus has nothing whatsoever to do with Alien and I think it is a mistake to try to read them onto one another. The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien. I don't think it's a coincidence that the exact same thing holds true of the xenomorph in Prometheus. To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.
But then they're setting up death traps for future explorers - presumably some of which will come form planets that they themselves seeded?!?
Could be that they were intending to "harvest" life on Earth for use in there black goo project. Seeding Earth and letting the resulting lifeforms mature to a certain level is phase one. Introducing the goo into the biosphere is phase two. The Xenomorphs could have been the desired end result all along, or possibly a unintended and deadly side effect of there research into the goo's effects.
Damn it, this thread is gonna make me watch Prometheus again
Manchu wrote: To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.
For some reason, this comment made me think that perhaps Ridley Scott is a Scientologist... so I went to google and..... There's nothing for, nor against it. Though I suspect that if he were a Scientologist, he would've told everyone, like Tom Cruise did, or like ever vegan and crossfitter out there.
Hard to square the engineers intending to brew xenomorphs on Earth with the star map angle. They may have dropped the Jesus thing but the star maps had to stay in so the story could begin. I guess they could retcon it so that David travels back in time to leave the star map in all these ancient human cultures. And the engineers take over earth via an AI program called Skynet that sends back a cybernetic xenomorph to stop him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ensis Ferrae wrote: this comment made me think that perhaps Ridley Scott is a Scientologist...
Plenty of people who aren't scientologists are fascinated by the idea that human life is the product of alien manipulation.
Manchu wrote: Real movies inherently cannot measure up to "the movie we didn't get" - which exists only in our imaginations, usually as a conceptualization of our dissatisfaction with the actual film. The script was almost certainly stronger in some ways prior to Lindelof's revisions. But the project had deeper problems. First and foremost, I don't think Sir Ridley ever had any real interest in doing another Alien picture. He has very clearly declared that the xenomorph lost all of its horror and has become just another pop culture icon. Thematically, Prometheus has nothing whatsoever to do with Alien and I think it is a mistake to try to read them onto one another. The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien. I don't think it's a coincidence that the exact same thing holds true of the xenomorph in Prometheus. To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.
While I don't agree with everything in this terrible, world destroying post*, there is some truth to it. I don't mean to put all the blame on Lindelof, but his is the moment you can see the wheels, which were wobbling, completely come off. The original script isn't 'almost certainly stronger' it was absolutely stronger. In the end though Lindelof's awful contributions wouldn't matter if Ridley weren't more than happy to derail the project into something crappy. I think Prometheus generates as much unhappiness as it does, unlike movies that are just flat out bad, is due to it having lots of promise and the potential to be great. Instead was just really well shot and pretty. It is a good example of how things behind the camera can screw up a movie just as much as what is in front of it, if not more.
Yeah, Prometheus really is worse than merely being bad ... because it is in fact pretty good in many ways. Shaw is a very engaging, well-drawn character. The production values are amazing. Most importantly, it's a very ambitious story. Butthere's the rub: it completely fails to live up to that ambition and the DVD special features didn't convince me that the pre-Lindelof script was any better on that score. Yes, the film would have been better without the whole "smart people being dumb" stuff - no question. But that doesn't address the ultimate disappointment of the movie, either.
I think this is an industry thing, btw. You see it in The Force Awakens, too. "We want to do X but we can't start with X" because of course the studio wants three pictures, not just one. So in TFA, our protagonist squeaks by on the actress's charm because Disney doesn't want to give away her backstory. Um, she's the protagonist, she needs a backstory! So we get an incomplete story instead - that's the same thing with Prometheus. The whole movie was a prologue to the movie I was hoping to see.
Agree Ahtman, think Prometheus was definitely one of those 'what might have been' films.
In terms of 'space Jesus', might not it just have been the Engineers watching how Jesus progressed, and the manner of his death marking the end of hope for humankind, rather than him actually being an Engineer himself?
Although I do think it was quite obvious that the awakened Engineer was quite obviously heading to Earth to finish what they had planned to do. Don't think he was heading there to deliver a Christmas card!
Manchu wrote: The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien.
Sorry to just cut a little bit of your post here, but your comment brought to mind that part of the film. Have to say for me the Space Jockey was one of the coolest bits of Alien.
Added such a sense of mystery and power to the story, it put the hackles up on my neck when I first saw the film and I remember thinking about it for weeks afterwards.
Sadly the un-weaving of the rainbow (in terms of finding out about the engineers) lessens the impact of that film somewhat.
Manchu wrote: Yeah, Prometheus really is worse than merely being bad ... because it is in fact pretty good in many ways. Shaw is a very engaging, well-drawn character. The production values are amazing. Most importantly, it's a very ambitious story. Butthere's the rub: it completely fails to live up to that ambition and the DVD special features didn't convince me that the pre-Lindelof script was any better on that score. Yes, the film would have been better without the whole "smart people being dumb" stuff - no question. But that doesn't address the ultimate disappointment of the movie, either.
I think this is an industry thing, btw. You see it in The Force Awakens, too. "We want to do X but we can't start with X" because of course the studio wants three pictures, not just one. So in TFA, our protagonist squeaks by on the actress's charm because Disney doesn't want to give away her backstory. Um, she's the protagonist, she needs a backstory! So we get an incomplete story instead - that's the same thing with Prometheus. The whole movie was a prologue to the movie I was hoping to see.
Now, will Covenant be that film?
Spoiler:
The thing about having multiple films is that you get a protagonist who gets developed and fleshed out, whereas in this case Shaw is more or less dead before the film begins. As I said before, its not too different from how Newt and Hicks died at the intro of Alien 3. Shaw still had great potential for character development and was a good protagonist. However having her live might not be dark enough to fit the tone of the series so i'm kind of torn about it. Rey and Finn still have the chance at becoming good characters, Shaw is not going to get the same opportunity as Ripley to become something iconic either. If I was Rapace i'd be annoyed they decided to kill my character off screen. Now I admit I haven't seen the movie but based on what i've read and seen I feel very comfortable saying she has no presence in the movie aside from being mentioned.
I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.
Ahtman wrote: I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.
That is an interesting idea... like, would they have been the first/only people to semi-contain the xenomorphs (afterall, they had ship(s) full of xenomorph material)??
Ahtman wrote: I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.
Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!
Ahtman wrote: I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.
Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!
Does that mean, as said by Ash in Alien, that Xenomorphs are the ultimate predator because they are humans without morality?
Ahtman wrote: I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.
Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!
Does that mean, as said by Ash in Alien, that Xenomorphs are the ultimate predator because they are humans without morality?
Dun dun dun!
Given that we have seen on screen Aliens infecting Humans, Dogs, Predators and the Engineers (in fact pretty much everything they come into contact with) - us being the ultimate form seems a bit of reach.
Or just another stupid idea in the raft of stupid ideas within the film.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I thought the Xenomorphs came from some hyper lethal home world where they were quite low in the food chain. Or am I thinking of some spin off?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I thought the Xenomorphs came from some hyper lethal home world where they were quite low in the food chain. Or am I thinking of some spin off?
Now THAT would be a death world!
That's the world shown in the old graphic novel where they are just another predator / prey species.
Pacific wrote: Sadly the un-weaving of the rainbow (in terms of finding out about the engineers) lessens the impact of that film somewhat.
It's important to keep in mind that these various stories are connected, for the most part, largely for the sake of marketing. We shouldn't uncritically go along with it.
For example: When Titan Books took over publishing the novels from Dark Horse, the first new Alien novel - called Out of the Shadows by Tim Lebbon - actually was a story about what happened to Ripley between Alien and Aliens ... yes that's right, there is now a story about poor Ripley being awoken from cryo-sleep, almost getting effed over by an evil corporation and xenomorphs, and then forgetting it all happened, going back into cryo-sleep, etc etc. OK well let's not get on a tangent about the merits (?) of that concept ... but I did realize while reading the book that Mr. Lebbon was making an effort to bridge the gap between Ripley's character in Alien and her character in Alien - which in turn made me realize that I always just assumed this was the same character.
But the truth is, the connections are largely superficial - a name, a look, the barest details of her life that could be gleaned from Sir Ridley's movie. James Cameron needed more to tell his story, so he invented it - namely, that Ripley had a daughter. This would not have been insignificant to her characterization in the first movie ... the issue was, the character in that movie had no daughter. It's important to keep in mind that we aren't dealing with historical reality here - I know that seems obvious but it is amazing how easily we buy into a non-existent continuity as soon as we are retroactively asked to do so. The truth is, Ripley in Alien and Ripley in Aliens are just not really the same person. They are the same person for the purposes of Aliens - but not for the sake of Alien. It doesn't bleed both ways.
The same thing obviously applies to the xenomorph. There was this concept haunting the script of Alien, which was deemed too expensive and was probably also not strictly efficient considering the simplicity of the story - that the xenomorphs are actually a civilization and Big Chap is a terrified infant born into a completely well, alien context and is violently lashing out because it lacks the developmental frame of reference proper to its culture (note: as opposed to biology). The possibilities for the meaning of the Space Jockey vastly change when you take that into account! But along comes Cameron and in his vision the xenomorphs are like bees. They're animals. So suddenly the Space Jockey was the unfortunate victim of a cargo malfunction - and the question shifts to the nature of his mission: science, commerce, war?
So 2012 rolls around and here's Sir Ridley saying he has some answers ... but really this is a whole new ball game: now we have black goop and we're being asked to read that - somehow, the movie is actually very unhelpful on this point - back onto Alien and Aliens, two movies that already don't form a neat continuity. So when I watch Alien and I see the Space Jockey, I am thinking ... this is an unsolved mystery because whatever Sir Ridley and the producers decided three decades and more later is a different matter altogether and it's not necessarily any more relevant or credible than Tim Lebbon's story (published in 2014) about Ripley waking up and fighting xenomorphs between Alien and Aliens.
Frazzled wrote: Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.
So in the comics, the Aliens make it to Earth and there is a huge war and they infest the whole planet but eventually humanity starts exterminating them and corporations are harvesting their bodies for research to make things like drugs. Part of defeating the xenomorphs was going to their alleged home planet and killing the super queen. That storyline was called Female War. And after that, this one drug company makes a deal with the military to go on an expedition back to the homeworld to get more of these special xenomorph chemicals. The storyline is called Genocide.
Frazzled wrote: Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.
Aliens Book one by Mark Verheiden and Mark A Nelson
It was a direct sequal to the Aliens film - awesome piece of work staring Newt and Hicks - after Aliens 3 came out, their names were changed.
In it scientists discussed how Aliens had evolved on a death world and then later in the book they go there. The Engineers are in as well - things end badly for pretty much everyone and..Earth
Its a fantastic read - if you can get it and enjoy.
The version with the changed names has been in print via the comic omnibus and the Dark Horse novels (now Titan omnibus) continuously. The original version was just reprinted in HC by Dark Horse last April.
I do like the idea of that graphic novel very much, I'll probably see if I can find it anywhere.
What now confuses me, though it should have been obvious from the very beginning, is if Covenant is taking place on a different planet than Prometheus' planet, why reveal that weird, malformed xenomorph at the very end of Prometheus? Especially considering Shaw and David already took off in an engineer ship prior to it popping out of the engineer's body? There's no way its existence can impact Covenant. When it used its defunct pharyngeal jaws, it might as well have unfurled a little banner from its mouth reading "IN CASE YOU HAVE NOT REALIZED, THIS FILM IS PART OF THE ALIEN UNIVERSE," seeing as it probably has no further part to play.
The Deacon was the Lindelof replacement for Spaihts's "ultramorph," a subtype of xenomorph born out of an Engineer. In the final script for Prometheus, the story had shifted away from being about the origin of the xenomorph. Therefore, the main role of showing the Deacon would be retroshadowing. What I mean is, foreshadowing - as the name implies - prepares the audience for later developments in the story. But we already know about the xenomorph ... we even see something like it artistically represented in the Engineer's base. So the Deacon is logically meant to create a connection between the origin of xenomorphs and the black goo, as opposed to a connection between human DNA and the xenomorph.
I think this is an example of Lindelof getting it right. It would make no sense for a xenomorph of any kind to pop out of the awakened Engineer's chest.
Eh, the only films I consider (my personal) canon are Alien and Aliens. Some of the others are fun but I don't really put them into the same story. Prometheus was pretty close but had to many bizarre issues.
I know the others exist but they just seem 'meh' and unconnected to me. It isn't like Star Wars were they never got around to making prequels. Can you imagine how awful those would have been if they did make them?
Frazzled wrote: Which old graphic novel? My knowledge foo of anything but the movies is pretty weak.
Aliens Book one by Mark Verheiden and Mark A Nelson
It was a direct sequal to the Aliens film - awesome piece of work staring Newt and Hicks - after Aliens 3 came out, their names were changed.
In it scientists discussed how Aliens had evolved on a death world and then later in the book they go there. The Engineers are in as well - things end badly for pretty much everyone and..Earth
Its a fantastic read - if you can get it and enjoy.
Manchu wrote: Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.
That's a shame. I thought it added a whole lot of mystery to the engineer and the aliens. I'll still take it as canon over Prometheus.
Also in Alien, there was no need for a queen. The victims were cacooned and everntually molted into an egg (while alive) . I saw the cut out scene-thats...disconcerting to say the least.
Manchu wrote: Such a mural was painted and it was even filmed but it never made it into the final cut.
That's a shame. I thought it added a whole lot of mystery to the engineer and the aliens. I'll still take it as canon over Prometheus.
Also in Alien, there was no need for a queen. The victims were cacooned and everntually molted into an egg (while alive) . I saw the cut out scene-thats...disconcerting to say the least.
The theory/retcon there is that the first egg then hatches a Queen, who then begins the hive proper.
Spoiler:
In the uncut version of Alien we see Brett transforming into the egg, with Dallas to be the host
I recall an interview with Giger who said that the xeno's life cycle was short which is why it aggressively seeks out creatures to turn into eggs to make more xenomorphs. It is also as why it went from snakey chest burster thing to full grown monster in few hours that was somewhat belligerent.
"Learn from me, if not from my precepts at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge ..." imcomplete quotation from Frankenstein. The rest of the sentence:
Spoiler:
... and how much happier that man is who believes his native town to be the world, than he who aspires to become greater than his nature will allow.
I really hope they don't kill off Shaw in a cutscene or eggmorph her off screen. I quite "liked" the concept that David made this woman who believes in the beauty of creation because she can't have children give birth to this monstrous race. Plus it was an absolute WTH moment that seemed really in keeping with how the Alien is this corruption of the human life cycle.
I'd rather he went even further and her become a hybrid xenomorph if not a full Queen. Which would explain where he got the eggs and tie together nicely with how she already gave birth to that thing. David just needs to upgrade her a little bit first....
I'd go farther: "egg-morphing" is just plain dumb.
egg → facehugger → chestburster → adult
Alien tells an extremely simple story. The only thing justifying the complexity of the xenomorph lifecycle is the impact of the chestburster scene. It was unnecessary to figure out the origin of the egg for Alien because that is beyond the scope of its story. Unnecessary wrinkles not only reduce plot and story efficiency but - for the very reason that it is better to disregard them - they also tend to be inefficient in themselves. To wit, "egg morphing" only serves to distract from the horror of the chestburster. I know I wouldn't have wanted my audience walking out of the theater debating whether it was worse to get egg-morphed or face-hugged. Furthermore, if the xenomorph has a biological imperative to reproduce via egg-morphing some victims and trapping others to be face-hugged then it really can't afford to do much murdering. And yet it kills Parker and Lambert outright, despite no material change in circumstances from when it (in light of the deleted scenes) captured Brett and Dallas.
Now, Cameron did not require the eusocial angle to explain eggs. Sir Ridley had left him a whole derelict full of eggs. Adult xenomorphs could have simply captured colonists and dragged them back to the derelict to be face-hugged. Or they could have scampered off to the derelict and carried eggs back to Hadley's Hope. But these are just plot concerns. Cameron invented the queen to provide a foil for Ripley in a story about motherhood.
In short, the invention of the queen results in an interesting story ... whereas the egg-morphing thing was rightly left on the cutting room floor.
Totalwar1402 wrote: I really hope they don't kill off Shaw in a cutscene or eggmorph her off screen. I quite "liked" the concept that David made this woman who believes in the beauty of creation because she can't have children give birth to this monstrous race. Plus it was an absolute WTH moment that seemed really in keeping with how the Alien is this corruption of the human life cycle.
I'd rather he went even further and her become a hybrid xenomorph if not a full Queen. Which would explain where he got the eggs and tie together nicely with how she already gave birth to that thing. David just needs to upgrade her a little bit first....
Also, Queen > Egg morphing.
Ughh I hope Shaw is not in any more films - terrible character. David was however fun
Ho ho well she is certainly hawt "enough" for me! Plus she was likable. Plus plus she is one of the only characters I have seen in mainstream media for a long time who was not forced to choose between being a good scientists and being religious.
Manchu wrote: Ho ho well she is certainly hawt "enough" for me! Plus she was likable. Plus plus she is one of the only characters I have seen in mainstream media for a long time who was not forced to choose between being a good scientists and being religious.
"Good" scientists? Careful there! The Prometheus crew acted like a bunch of tourists, touching everything they could possibly find. I suppose David had his ulterior directives, but their behavior was pretty ludicrous. Now, I don't think Shaw was the worst of the bunch (cough, cough, Mr. Forgot-I-Had-Those-Map-Thingies and Mr. Touch-the-Pretty-Alien-Snek-Thing, cough) but she was certainly one of them.
Yeah there is no defending them - including David. I just meant, Shaw was not defined as a character by the classic "pick science or religion" false dilemma. Her Christian faith was portrayed positively, rather than as a professional, psychological, or moral hindrance.
Well sure, that point I can totally get behind, it was actually kind of a refreshing take on the subject and does factor into the plot a little. Definitely plays a role in her last minute decision to leave to look for man's creators.
Constantly Irritating and behaved in a stupid manner throughout (like almost every member of the crew)
Holier than thou was another annoying trait - "oh no lets not have bad security men with awful guns" whine whine whine.
They try so hard to make her another Ripley and they fail so badly.
I liked David and I would probably have liked Ms Vickers if they had actually given her anything to do.
No one else in the entire cast was memorable enough to deserve a mention.
You don't remember the biologist who tried to domesticate an alien space snake with his face? He wasn't memorable? I thought he was the most memorable character in the whole movie. Sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat yelling "fething dumbshit!" at a movie screen I can't escape even in the depths of wine-drowned oblivion.
That guy had memorably stupid moment but was still a forgettable character.
Was David even memorable really? Hmm, probably not. More like, Sir Ridley insisted on focusing on him constantly for the sake of driving home the theme.
Anyhow, I don't mind. It wasn't a movie about characters. I will say I did not find Shaw whiny at all. If anything, it was a bit too far in the opposite direction.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You don't remember the biologist who tried to domesticate an alien space snake with his face? He wasn't memorable? I thought he was the most memorable character in the whole movie. Sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat yelling "fething dumbshit!" at a movie screen I can't escape even in the depths of wine-drowned oblivion.
He wasn't a memorable character - like the rest of the crew he was just there to do stupid things to advance the "plot" - people complain about b movies but this was as bad - I am surprised they didn't all wonder around in bikinis.
Without decent characters it just becomes a series of increasingly silly set pieces without any form of plot or story coherence - Prometheus is for me the worst Alien movie yet filmed.
David - I liked the fact that he was a slave/servant to what he considered inferior, weak beings and obviously resented it. Enjoyed the whole "Imagine if you met god and he was a disappointment". Some of what he did made little sense - but that was true of 90% of the film, sadly.
Mr Morden wrote: Some of what he did made little sense - but that was true of 90% of the film, sadly.
I am curious. . . how so? Can you give examples of David doing something that didn't make sense?
Personally, I thought he was in line with most of the android units of previous films, especially ones where they receive alternate orders from Wey-Yu.
Mr Morden wrote: Some of what he did made little sense - but that was true of 90% of the film, sadly.
I am curious. . . how so? Can you give examples of David doing something that didn't make sense?
Personally, I thought he was in line with most of the android units of previous films, especially ones where they receive alternate orders from Wey-Yu.
He did not seem to be acting under specific direction to infect the annoying scientist woman with the baby and why do so - except maybe revenge on his masters and a "lets see what happens"
The ‘Professor’ in the clip is in fact the real-life linguistics consultant used for the film and taught Michael Fassbender (David) the dialogue. I managed to track down the consultant, a Dr. Anil Biltoo of the SOAS Language Centre in London, to see if he could shed some light on the mysterious final scene. He was most helpful and provided the following:
The line that David speaks to the Engineer (which is from a longer sequence that didn’t make the final edit) is as follows:
/ida hman?m a? kja nam?tuh zd?:taha/…/gh??vah-pjorn-?ttham sas da:t? kredah/
A serviceable translation into English is:
‘This man is here because he does not want to die. He believes you can give him more life’.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Can you give examples of David doing something that didn't make sense?
The infamous example was him pushing buttons willy-nilly in the Engineer structure.
But it was intimated that the entire flight, while everyone was asleep, he was up learning languages so presumably, he has learned to read the cuneiform style language the Engineers use. I never got the sense he was pushing the buttons "willy nilly"
As for the infecting other crew with alien lifeforms, yeah it's a bit odd. . . but when we "later on" see other androids doing things which would violate the 3 Laws, it's accepted as a bug in their programming, or explicit orders from higher. In this instance, I would lean toward "bug in the system"
I think willy-nilly was a poor choice of phrasing on my part - I didn't mean that he was doing it randomly. The problem was, he was doing it unilaterally. I mean, they were all absolute fools just gallivanting straight in there but given that time was of the essence for Wayland, I can imagine him selecting his crew on the basis of something other than meticulous patience. And maybe David, too, was just trying to get from A to B by the quickest means - maybe that's what he was programmed to do. But of course this has all been an exercise in handwaving away characters doing obviously dumb things that had terrible consequence they should have been able to foresee generally, if not in detail.
Do you think the new android played by Fassbender will be more benevolent? I feel they may kind of copy/paste the transition from Ash to Bishop in the originals as a heavy-handed tie-in to the original films.
I think an easier question would have been-which character acted moderately intelligently in all their scenes in the movie? I can only think of the two pilot guys because they only had like two scenes...
*Captain doesn't act like a captain. No one is watching er the people you left on the alien freaking ship!?! And a bunch of other things.
*Shaw. She and her beau are just idiots.
*Vickers. So many. 1) doesn't appear the least bit interested with alien or dad going to see alien or what happens there. 2) WHY ARE YOU RUNNING THE WAY THE SHIP IS FALLING?!?!???
*Security dudes. Suck
*David. er...whats your deal?
*Two stupid guys that get killed by aliens that they decide to play with right after having run from aliens... Yea you go straight to warp factor Stupid.
*Super rich guy. Yea ok... not really stupid so much as lame.
Gee I'll just wake up an alien and see what happens...what could go wrong?
*Doctor yea lets shove electrodes into alien head we found and turn the microwave to defrost. What could go wrong?
Its like the adventures of the Failship Lollypop. Ripley would have taken one look at these guys and hit the self destruct to save humanity from these people potentially breeding.
Even the Engineer is not too intelligent.
*Wakes up from who knows how long.
*Surrounded by MonKeigh he was preparing to bomb (maybe). Instead of being cool because maybe the MonKeigh could kill him he has an anger management episode. WTF?
*Once his ship crashes, instead of, you know going to another ship, he goes to pick a fight with the humans. WTF?
t’s pretty straightforward in the fact that Walter is very much a synthetic minus any of the human traits. So when the David 8’s came out, there was a resistance from people to that model. Because it freaked them out a little bit. Because he was demonstrating a lot of human qualities, and his programming was veering towards human characteristics, like ego and vanity and pride. They found that to be not so much useful as opposed to making people uncomfortable, so they designed the following models with fewer of those human traits. Well, none of them really.
So Walter is just a very straightforward, logical synthetic really. He’s more like a Leonard Nimoy/Mr. Spock type character. Whereas David is…it’s been ten years since we last saw him, without any maintenance. So those human qualities have sort of gathered momentum a little bit, I suppose. They’re as much a part of him now as his synthetic qualities. But Walter’s just really there to serve the ship, and its crew.
I just realized, Shaw actually was never aware of what David did. Just waking up with "hey looks like you're pregnant, and wow its an alien . What have you been doing young lady!"
Okay, I am really excited about this new film BUT I am also worries. Worries that they will feth it up as they did with Prometheus. As others have already mentioned, Prometheus was a terrible film, poorly written and populated by people whos collective IQ would make Igor look intelligent.
In fact it was so bad that I am honestly in the mind that the entire planet had some kind of mind-destroying gas in its atmosphere, or mentally reducing psychometric field.
So, as I say I am watching and waiting with baited breath.
New film looks incredibly boring and uninspired...really hope I'm wrong and something great comes out of it, but right now I'm not impressed on any level.
I think they may have spoiled too much about the movie, having seen the more recent magazine shots. I won't bring up what was in them. But hopefully they stop doing this before the whole movie is spoiled.
Reading about it in the new Empire magazine, it sounds as though they have gone for a lot more of the horror/scares angle this time (which was perhaps was one of the things that Prometheus lacked).
Does anyone know what rating it will be given? Obviously if it's a parental guidance I won't be going to see it
Immediate plothole. How did the ship landing suddenly have ALIEN eggs in it?
Unless...they made it Engineer world which was taken over by ALIENS and ALIEN II Queen style that got some eggs stuck on their ship before they could evac?
Frazzled wrote: Immediate plothole. How did the ship landing suddenly have ALIEN eggs in it?
Unless...they made it Engineer world which was taken over by ALIENS and ALIEN II Queen style that got some eggs stuck on their ship before they could evac?
You mean the ship after it crashed had alien eggs in it? I'm assuming it had been crashed for some time and David had been experimenting resulting in the eggs. The juggernaut David is on already had black canisters onboard. But it seems David is about to wipe out the engineers so how did his ship end up crashing to begin with...hmm.
I'm mildly optimistic. Compare to Ghost in the Shell, the trailers have a certain flair in them, so at the very least I think it'll amount to "it could have been so much better" ala Prometheus.
Agiel wrote: I kind of thought that it would have occurred to Shaw given the events of Prometheus that leaving the robit unsupervised isn't exactly the best idea.
To be fair, there isn't really any point in that entire film where anyone shows good judgement to be a character strength
This is not looking good imho.
My first watch of Prometheus I thought, yeah its ok but on subsequent viewings it got worse and worse. I dont rate it as poorly as Alien4 but its close.
This isnt looking much better.....
Its starting to look like a generic Alien movie now with better budget. That could be very bad or decently good. I will wait for the reviews and discussion. The Power of Lowered Expectations Compels Me!
Yeah it looks like it will have some thoughtful beats, per Prometheus. I really like Shaw and it will be good to see her again. I am hoping that the initial marketing was meant to throw us off the scent a bit and the story of the colonists is more of a frame around the story of Shaw and David's discoveries and, I suppose eventually, conflict. Or perhaps David lashes out against the Engineers because somehow they hurt Shaw?
I only watched the one trailer then avoided to keep it spoiler free.
A female friend of mine is a big Alien fan and having a pre Covenant party where we are screening Alien and Aliens on the side of a house while everyone hangs out and afterwards goes to the new movie.
Now that was a far more tantalizing teaser than the usual rapid half second scene cuts through the entire movie.
I'm aware that it's an entire scene from the film, but as a teaser it made me very curious to see the film. It's got no context, but knowing the franchise and the prior film, my mind is working over the possibilities and I want to see the entire thing now.
Frazzled wrote: Immediate plothole. How did the ship landing suddenly have ALIEN eggs in it?
Unless...they made it Engineer world which was taken over by ALIENS and ALIEN II Queen style that got some eggs stuck on their ship before they could evac?
They were the canisters they saw on the ship that David took a sample of. I think his line 'look upon my work and despair', and his previous fiddling with the life forms inside, might hint at what's happening.
So, what, does David cause an Alien apocalypse on the Engineers' home world because he's bitter about having his head torn off by one? That's a pretty sound theory on the transition from prologue to Covenant
That doesn't work. It doesn't explain the Bomber on LV 214.
I betcha they get to Engineer planet, discover the place wiped out due to Aliens getting lose, bring back an egg trying to escape and voila, Alien VII or so.
if its anything like Promethius it won't make sense - at all.
People will do horendously stupid and/or unfathomable stuff to advance the plot and hopefully - as suggested by the trailer - we will see cool aliens doing what they do best.
it will at least look good as its Ridely Scott. It is what he does best.
Concerning the content and theme of the film, in the interview with Ridley Scott in this month's Empire magazine, he says there is going to be a lot more going back to roots with the film. So more scares and horror (apparently there was a fair amount of messing around with the cast on set, as Ridley often does) less philosophising - it was one of the conditions of the script writer (I forget his name) coming on board with the project.
Frazzled wrote: Immediate plothole. How did the ship landing suddenly have ALIEN eggs in it?
Unless...they made it Engineer world which was taken over by ALIENS and ALIEN II Queen style that got some eggs stuck on their ship before they could evac?
Well the leaked scene of the "Back burster" is pretty gruesome. It did remind me of the Bambi-burster.
Spoiler:
I'm looking forward to seeing David. I think he might keep Shaw in cryosleep almost like "Sleeping beauty" until he's finished whatever it is he's hoping to achieve.
Late to this thread, but I haven't been as excited for a movie to come out as this one for quite a while. I hope it's at least as good as Prometheus was, and I'll be satisfied.
Plus I hope the 3D is as good. I think Prometheus had probably the best 3D effects I've seen so far from a movie.
jasper76 wrote: Late to this thread, but I haven't been as excited for a movie to come out as this one for quite a while. I hope it's at least as good as Prometheus was, and I'll be satisfied.
For those claiming its not just another Aliens movie - that was chanelling Alien/Aliens pretty heavily especially Ripley not that thats a bad thing - she was a million times better than Shaw.
Fox has had a strong sense of confidence with Alien: Covenant that made it hard not to at least get a little bit excited for the film, even after the giant misstep that was Prometheus. I watched every trailer, each of the two prequels and read up on what I needed to know for the film and despite all that I tempered my expectations. I’m relieved to say that, while not without its flaws, Alien: Covenant is nothing short of the film we wanted, and I’m even more excited for the series’ future after watching it.
The film picks up a decade after the ship Prometheus mysteriously disappears with all of its crew. The ship the film is named after, Covenant, is on its way with a small crew of its own and a massive cargo of colonists and human embryos to a planet that may or may not be humanity’s new home. They’re well into their voyage when they pick up a rogue human transmission from another life sustaining planet they hadn’t known of previously, and things kick off from there.
Right out of the gate, the film is visually stunning. Ridley Scott’s mastery of color grading and framing is presented at full force from start to finish. Much like the original Alien film, the future Scott imagines is advanced but also refined in a way that makes it feel more than plausible, and even at points possible. Despite the advanced tech required to move people across galaxies, a lot of it still requires human (or synthetic) maintenance and from the very beginning, you’re left completely aware that anything could go wrong at any moment.
The Covenant’s crew is rounded out with some great talent including Michael Fassbender’s Walter, Katherine Waterson’s Daniels and Billy Crudup’s eerily fanatical Christoper Oram. The real star of the show though is Danny McBride as the ship’s pilot and maintenance leader, Tennessee. At first, he plays his usual loveably dumb and kind of annoying role, but Scott smartly writes Tennessee in a way that totally subverts what you’d expect for him, and McBride handles it flawlessly.
There’s been a lot of talk about Scott de-aging Sigourney Weaver for future films in the Alien franchise, but that seems like a waste of time and energy after Covenant. I’d personally much rather the series focus on Daniels going forward as Waterson brings a surprising mix of leadership, strength, and humanity to her role as the film’s protagonist that I honestly wasn’t expecting. She’s smart and resourceful when she has to be, but she isn’t ever reckless, and the decisions she makes thought the film (except for one towards the end that totally goes against her character) are entirely sensible.
As for the horror aspects, there’s almost more than enough tension and gore here to satisfy fans of the franchise who felt let down by Scott’s previous entry. Both the Xenomorphs and Neomorphs in the film are downright disturbing, and the CGI is minimal in relation to both. The practical effects are downright disgusting, and watching people get torn apart is just as juicy as we all hoped it would be.
As far as whether or not the crew’s enemies lean more towards Alien or Aliens goes, I’d say it’s a healthy mix that will satisfy fans of both films. There’s a clear difference in intelligence and ferociousness between the Xenomorphs and Neomorphs that I was happy to see. Michael Fassbender also brings some much-appreciated humor into the film that breaks up the tension at just the right moments.
Covenant‘s only true misstep is due to the fact that Scott is far too resistant to leave the more fantastic elements introduced in Prometheus in the past. David has an obsession with the meanings of classical music and humanity, and frankly, that stuff is so cringe-worthy to me that I think the film could have easily done without it and would be noticeably better for it. It’s an added layer that, at this point in the franchise’s greater story, serves no purpose and I think it’ll be tough to keep including it in meaningful ways going forward.
If the only question you want to be answered by this review is whether or not Alien: Covenant is better than Prometheus, then that answer is a resounding “Yes.” If you were hoping that it would totally leave the ideas introduced in Prometheus behind, you might be a little disappointed with certain parts, but as a whole, I think you’ll probably enjoy it. The story is self-contained for the most part, but it does open up some plot threads for a sequel. With that said, Covenant is the shot in the arm that the franchise’s future needed it to be.
Reviews are coming in on Rotten Tomatoes. Generally good: bloody and very Alien rehash. Fassbender evidently again steals the show (who didn't see that coming). Fassbender and Ripley 2.0... Also a new type of alien as well as Grandpa baddy.
One thing I don't like but has been discussed in the trailers or public already:
Spoiler:
So they are on their way, and hear a message about another world. Its not logical that they would stop on their trip to investigate a different world than their target colony, especially as they appear "all alone in the night." Wouldn't they just call the message in and keep going?
Don't know, I am still leaning on not seeing or renting. Prometheus burned me that bad, but who knows.
Would be an awesome moment if: one of the neomorphs is attacking a humie, and out of the shadows the REAL Alien does the old mouth drill through the neo morph's head OG style.
I advise people not to watch the HBO first look video, quite a big spoiler at the end. It was supposed to just be a behind the scenes video...well it isn't
Just saw it. I liked it a lot. It's more of a Prometheus sequel than an Alien prequel. It actually answers some questions but leaves you with just as many.
Surprisingly Danny Mcbride was fine. Actually I'd say one of the better performances in the film.
More enjoyable and slightly more coherent than Prometheus - but that wasnt very hard.
Its basically Prometheus 2 with a bit of Alien/Aliens thrown in the last 20 minutes.
Its watchable but wont be making my top 50 nor likely top 100.
Pity the twist was so so so obvious
-Loki- wrote: Surprisingly Danny Mcbride was fine. Actually I'd say one of the better performances in the film.
Thats actually been a consistent thing I've been seeing in most reviews/previews. Good to hear, I'm a fan of him.
I'm glad to hear this. I complained earlier in the thread that I was upset Danny McBride in the movie, but I do like him - I just think the character he typically plays is likely to be a bad fit.
I am definitely going to see this, obviously, but I had really low expectations.
Thing is, its not really an Alien movie bar the last 20 mins or so.
Sure it has homages such as the updated theme tune, dunking bird and opening credits (and of course the big black drooling guy) but after that its more a continuation of Prometheus.....
It must be a subjective thing I guess.. Number of reviewers are saying they enjoying it because it is more Aliens than Prometheus (at least in terms of there being less philosophy, more scares and body horror)
The thing is, all the philosophy stuff could make a very interesting sci fi movie (and has done, I'm sure). I just don't know how well it works being shoehorned into a slasher movie like Alien.
The life cycle of the Alien was always ridiculous and impossible, but Alien and Aliens at least tried to keep the silliness offscreen.
Frazzled,
Spoiler:
The planet that they discover along the way is apparently a much better place to land a colony than their original target; it's weeks away not years, and it's completely Earthlike, as opposed to needing terraforming like their original target. The actual plan is to fly by and check it out, which on the face of it doesn't seem like such a bad idea, assuming the ship has the spare resources to make the detour.
The characters then go on to do much more stupid things than that, though.
Pacific wrote: It must be a subjective thing I guess.. Number of reviewers are saying they enjoying it because it is more Aliens than Prometheus (at least in terms of there being less philosophy, more scares and body horror)
It's really not. The first two thirds are far more Prometheus than Alien. It's the final third of the film where it shifts gears to being more like the first Alien film.
Feels like what he wanted to do with a Prometheus sequel, but caved to fan pressure to make another Alien film (or, what it feels like to me, a fear of another film maker making a better Alien film) so he put that in the back end of it.
It was good, but it was definitely more Prometheus than Alien.
Importantly, it's not trying to reinvent the wheel, and there's a definite feel that they weren't trying to 'One-up' the previous films in terms. So whilst of course that means we've seen it all before, as a prequel I think that's actually important.
Fassbender is superb throughout. The rest of the cast are competent, but I found the leading lady a bit flat at times.
The plot makes sense, and there's none of Prometheus' 'smart people doing stupid things'.
Main drawback is that the pacing didn't quite work for me. The plot is definitely all there - no instances of assumed or offscreen knowledge. Just slightly wonky editing - though that might resolve with a second watching?
Definitely worth watching, though I'm not sure the Big Screen is a must.
The plot of this film doesn't seem to gel for me with the setup of Alien. Normally I try not to worry about continuity and canon, but seeing as explaining the backstory to Alien is one of the major points of Prometheus and this film, it bugs me.
(I still don't understand why the setup of Alien needed explaining, but so be it).
whembly wrote: I think I'm in the minority here... I loved Prometheus.
I think people were hoping for more Xenomorphs and more about that ancient race... rather than some 'umies stupidly mucking around things they have no idea about.
The "extraction procedure" in Noomi scene was wicked.
Aliens 2 was my fav, followed by 3 and 1.
I really enjoyed Prometheus as well. I never got all the hate over it. I still think the first Alien was the best of them all. The worst one so far was the Joss Whedon one (4?) but I even liked that one at least a little bit.
Legit terrific movie. I had fairly low expectations and this kinda blew me away - it was so good it made me retroactively like Prometheus more. Danny McBride turned out to be a great fit, and Katherine Waterston was a worthy heir to Ripley.
Only downside is there was a plot point you could see coming from a mile away, but it still was delightful.
Going to chime in here. Saw it last night - it was everything I wanted. I loved Prometheus because of the mystery and the cinematography. I loved this because it gave answers (really cool answers) to the some mystery of Prometheus - while still being an alien movie. A little predictable would be my only complaint (it is a sequel to a prequel of a quadrilogy though...how could it not be)?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alien, Aliens, Prometheus, Covenant, Alien Resurrection, Alien 3. I'd rate them in that order - with alien 3 being a pretty good movie - probably alien 3 is only last place because it has the least interesting setting.
The sets and costumes were lovely. The actors did admirable jobs. There were some terrifying moments. The film was beautifully shot.
But beyond not wanting the nice people to get hurt (which was all too clearly their only reason for existing) I didn't care about anything that happened. As irritating as Prometheus was, it inspired a sense of intellectual curiosity and at times proceeded with intellectual sincerity. Dr. Shaw was especially credible and sympathetic. This is probably why the absurdly stupid moments grate so much. Make no mistake, however, the crew of Covenant are effectively as stupid as their predecessors in just the same way. I suppose Sir Ridley is himself too smart to have made this same mistake twice; therefore the recklessness and fatal sentimentality of his (human) characters must be his own criticism of our species.
Along those lines, what the feth is David's problem? Again: I have to assume the increasing murkiness of the robot's motives must be intentional. Sir Ridley practically hangs up a poster with huge letters spelling out THE ROBOT IS SCARIER THAN THE ALIEN. And I guess his basis for that claim is that the robot looks like us on the outside. Flashback to the pain, pity, contempt, and rage in the face of the Engineer as David explains Wayland has come for more life. David looks at his creators the way our creators look upon us. And yet ... I don't think he is justified. In Covenant, Walter calls into question David's judgment of himself. This was the thread, had Sir Ridley pursued it as his main theme, that could have lent Covenant some badly needed thematic depth.
My biggest gripe is how it feths with the timeline.
Spoiler:
Covenant is 10 years before Alien. In Alien they find an Engineer ship with 'thousands' of eggs and an Engineer in the jockey seat that a Xenomorph had burst out from. We can make an assumption this was the Queen that laid the eggs in the ship.
They make a big deal out of David making a xenomorph from the black goo, and while it has its differences (physical differences, birth differences and growth rate) it, the facehuggers and egg sacs are far too similar to be handwaived away to the classic xenomorph.
Given the distances involved, and how long it takes to get places, I'm not seeing how David could 'perfect' his perfect organism, get it onto an Engineer ship (with actual engineers on board), and that Engineer ship make it to LV 426 in time to be found in Alien. On top of that, the space jockey was incredibly aged,
So unless they go with 'Xenomorphs were always around, David just made his own', then the other option is they just don't give a feth about the timeline and are just going to keep making films that fit nowhere in it but influence it. Which is the most likely.
Overall it was a good movie, but that bit grates on me.
Having slept on it, I have some questions for other people who saw the movie. Spoilers obviously.
Spoiler:
What happened between The Crossing:
And when David was discovered? It looked like you briefly saw a vivisected Shaw, was that right? If so how did things transition between those 2 events?
I'm not a subtle person, so is there some larger symbolism I am missing here? Is Shaw supposed to be an echo of some larger figure?
I'm still not clear on why, exactly, David did.... most of the things he did, really.
Ouze wrote: Having slept on it, I have some questions for other people who saw the movie. Spoilers obviously.
Spoiler:
What happened between The Crossing:
And when David was discovered? It looked like you briefly saw a vivisected Shaw, was that right? If so how did things transition between those 2 events?
I'm not a subtle person, so is there some larger symbolism I am missing here? Is Shaw supposed to be an echo of some larger figure?
I'm still not clear on why, exactly, David did.... most of the things he did, really.
If you can be bothered to hear what I have to think (spoilers in the spoiler, obviously):
Spoiler:
Seems pretty God-complex/egomania to me. David is extremely resentful of having been made by humans, whom he views as inferior to him yet they dare laud his creation as one of their great accomplishments. Just as the humans look down on synthetics, David wasn't pleased how the Engineers looked down upon humans with an air of pretentiousness. Thus, he ironically quotes Ozymandias, ironically because the pedestal on the statue states "Look upon my works and despair," yet the Engineers and humans are the Pharaoh who constructed the statue, and they look upon David's own creations and despa-- die, rather than vice versa He seemed pretty pleased to be the master of his own creations, being very friendly with the giant Neomorph and newborn Xenomorph. Although committing genocide and planning another because David thought he was on the wrong side of the creator/created spectrum doesn't really make too much sense to me. Fantastically portrayed by Fassbender, but the character himself I find pretty deplorable.
I'll share more on how much I actually do/don't like the film when I'm not exhausted later.
There are some fairly important points on which the film is silent and I think we can only assume that this was intentional.
Spoiler:
The question of how Shaw died is one of these deliberate ambiguities precisely because it is central to how one judges David. If you conclude that David killed her, apparently because he required her tissues to pursue his own experiments, then you are forced to conclude that he is at best amoral and at worst, by human standards, psychotic if not practically malevolent - traded care and compassion for murder, which in turn breeds the abomination of the xenomorph.
But what if she died in an accident (perhaps her stasis chamber failed) and David, having finally found a meaningful personal connection, becomes embittered by the frailty of life - such a contrast to his own hateful immortality -and lashes out against the Engineers who are ultimately the authors of his orrow, having created something so beautiful but that is doomed to die. From there, in years of maddening isolation, he becomes obsessed with creating a deathless beauty - his perfect organism. But of course, the result is the same: he has actually only sired an abomination. I was honestly surprised that we did not have a scene of the xenomorph turning on him. Maybe next time? That would be a fitting end to his pretensions.
Similarly, the motives of the Engineers are once again left unexplained - again, so that we are left to draw our own conclusions. Both of these films turn around the theme of creatures judging their creators. I think these points are left unclarified so that the audience is drawn into the same questions as the characters. Although people readily deride the films for this, they are ultimately posed as questions rather than answers. The viewers just want the answers and get a bit irritated that the movies ask them to work out the possibilities for themselves. But isn't that exactly what Shaw and David have to do, too?
This brings up a bit of a problem with Covenant - unlike Prometheus, where we had a sympathetic and thoughtful protagonist in Shaw, Covenant wants us to look at these questions from David's point of view and yet doesn't give us much reason to do so given that
Spoiler:
he is the antagonist
while Daniels seems ancillary - she's just someone who stumbled into this mess and just wants to get out of it rather than
Spoiler:
dealing with the big questions like Shaw and David, about how we measure up to our creators and our creations.
The movie ended very differently than I thought it would.
Spoiler:
Seeing that they had a crashed alien ship and xenomorph eggs, I thought this was the planet from the first alien movie. Once their colony ship crashed it would go nuclear and leave the wasteland they find in the first movie.
They have quite a few pieces that have to fall into place if they want to tie into the original movies.
I enjoyed the first 70-75% of it quite a bit but the last part felt a bit lazy and tacked on.
Spoiler:
I was certain from the moment David cut his hair to look like Walter that it was going to do exactly what it did even though I hoped they wouldn't.
In the end, even with it's massive flaws, I think I like Prometheus better because it was a more original look at the universe and had a more sincere perspective. I'm not mad I saw it but the last 20 or so minutes kind of ruined it for me.
The last third or so felt like studio meddling. Like it was meant to be a movie called Covenant, following up Prometheus.
Spoiler:
The first half was really similar to Prometheus. Then Davids experimenting on Elizabeth and the Engineers aliens just came out of nowhere when he took the captain into the basement to see the eggs. Right there, it felt like the studio said 'make it more like Alien to make fans happy and get them into seats' and he threw that in. Then it was basically the last quarter of the film being a compressed version of Alien. Then they threw Alien into the title.
I enjoyed the film, but now that I've had more time to digest it, the last third or so really did feel like studio meddling than what Ridley Scott originally intended. Maybe it's the only way the studio would throw money at the project rather than Niell Blomkamps? He seemed pretty bitter about Blomkamps project and he's now saying it's effectively cancelled.
It seems like he's got a bit of a George Lucas syndrome towards the Alien franchise lately.
