Since the HH novels started, the Primarchs have been written to be freakishly gigantic.
I'm really not on board with that idea.
While the Primarchs are supposed to be supremely power and fantastic warriors, humans (superhuman or normal) are not orks, we don't have to be freakishly huge to be great warriors.
What do you guys think? Yes, it's already part of the fluff, but surely everyone has something they would like to change.
If space marines become abhuman from their genetic enhancement, so are only partially human, the warriors they are based upon that required no genetic enhancement, and were born out of the box that way are not human.
Having said that, I like it in the old Fluff where Primarch's were taller than marines, but not giants that look a tad ridiculous on the table top coming out of land raiders and the like (and in the fluff)... It's stupid enough that marines fit in them, let alone giants. a foot or so taller would have been enough.
No I'm afraid super human still doesn't define them. To be super human they'd have to be human first. They were never human from the day of their creation. Space Marines were human once but not the primarchs. And sorry about the question - the primarchs as a whole bug me. They are weapons intentionally made op and proved time and again all the up to the HH that they are uncontrollable weapons at that. Even the loyalists are psychopaths by our standards.
ProwlerPC wrote: No I'm afraid super human still doesn't define them. To be super human they'd have to be human first. They were never human from the day of their creation. Space Marines were human once but not the primarchs. And sorry about the question - the primarchs as a whole bug me. They are weapons intentionally made op and proved time and again all they up to the HH that they are uncontrollable weapons at that. Even the loyalists are psychopaths by our standards.
Super means beyond. They can be built on homo-sapien stock and enhanced to be something more.
But I don't like the idea of the models being so huge. Got the FW Horus recently and am shocked by the size difference. Anything more than that is cartoonish.
He's a Daemon Primarch. Plus it's been established in the fluff for a few years now that as a Daemon Primarch he can change his size basically at will, since he's now entirely a Warp Entity rather than a mortal creature of flesh and blood.
Well in Magnus''s case he always had the ability to change his size even before becoming a Daemon Primarch. During the Great Crusade he enlarged himself to Titan size and engaged an ork gargant in melee. Not to mention that he was also the largest of all the Primarchs in normal form.
But I don't like the idea of the models being so huge. Got the FW Horus recently and am shocked by the size difference. Anything more than that is cartoonish.
I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's plasma annihilator and destroyed instantly.
If Primarchs were simple strategists and never ran into combat (close combat at that!) we'd have an understanding for why they might survive hundreds if not thousands of years of armed conflict. In some cases that seems to be the case. More often than not (because story, because selling models) these guys are running around getting into way too much stuff.
But I don't like the idea of the models being so huge. Got the FW Horus recently and am shocked by the size difference. Anything more than that is cartoonish.
sorry I'm talking fluff-wise
Same comment applies to both. Cartoonish.
I say this with a bit of science in mind. Proportions do not scale in regards to height. A 10 foot human being would have longer legs and less torso, making them look a little more like a spider. Bigger bodies would more likely look like something out of an early Disney cartoon than the Emperor.
I don't mind the Primarchs being a little bigger than normal Marines to set them apart (and therefore much bigger than normal humans) but their height in the lore is stupid. They should stand taller than the Marines around them, not dwarf them like they are children. I would have them be about 8 feet tall, tall enough that the largest Marines are about their size.
Elbows wrote: I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's plasma annihilator and destroyed instantly.
Theres was Greater Daemon of Khorn that survived being hit with a orbital.
Primarchs are made of the stuff of Khaos. Why would they be any different.
General Kroll wrote: Honestly can't say it bothers me all that much. They are meant to be genetically engineered super creatures.
It's not too much of a stretch to believe the Emperor would make them physically superior to humans.
That size is not superior. I think that is the point of the OP. Ten feet, or even eight feet really, seems like an ungainly clod that doesn't provide anything.
That is from the rudiments of a tasteful or reasonable perspective. I think there is argument to be made for their being fourteen feet tall because they would be greek titans.
but from an initial perspective it seems like they are freaks.
General Kroll wrote: Honestly can't say it bothers me all that much. They are meant to be genetically engineered super creatures.
It's not too much of a stretch to believe the Emperor would make them physically superior to humans.
That size is not superior. I think that is the point of the OP. Ten feet, or even eight feet really, seems like an ungainly clod that doesn't provide anything.
That is from the rudiments of a tasteful or reasonable perspective. I think there is argument to be made for their being fourteen feet tall because they would be greek titans.
but from an initial perspective it seems like they are freaks.
I'm pretty sure size would be a very important factor in a lot of combats for the Primarchs. They've never been portrayed as being ungainly, they've always been portrayed as being fully in control of their motor skills, above and beyond those of normal humans.
In some cases it could be a disadvantage sure. But in a lot of situations, they would simply be able to use their bulk to beat down an opponent.
This is before we even get to how imposing this god like giant would be to a normal human. The Emperor wanted these creatures to conquer and then rule the disparate strands of mankind across the galaxy. Simple shock and awe.
Maximus Bitch wrote: Since the HH novels started, the Primarchs have been written to be freakishly gigantic.
I'm really not on board with that idea.
While the Primarchs are supposed to be supremely power and fantastic warriors, humans (superhuman or normal) are not orks, we don't have to be freakishly huge to be great warriors.
What do you guys think? Yes, it's already part of the fluff, but surely everyone has something they would like to change.
I would have preferred the primarchs to be standard marine sized, but then again I'm not into the "primarchs were walking gods" thing. Of course I remember when marines were primarily just mind wiped killing machines...
wuestenfux wrote: Magnus is too much.
Nobody needs such an unfluffy model.
you realize that Magnus the Red's mini is of a deamon primrch yeah? there's nothing unfluffy about i. he's got more in common with a blood thirster then a space marine, physicaly speaking, now
amanita wrote: ^^
Pretty much (both previous responses). Even though they are uber awesome they are still flesh and blood last I checked.
I really get tired of how space marines keep growing in size because somehow 7' tall wasn't big enough to be imposing?
Except that they are not only flesh and blood, they are incredibly powerful warp-crafted souls akin to a greater daemon, inserted into the very best body human biotechnology could produce. That means they all are psykers, even if only latent ones, and therefore their actual power and strength far outmatch what their physical body alone should produce.
The regular Primarchs being huge is a little silly... largely because they tend to forget about it aside from when it matters to the narrative. They wander about the place as if everyone in the galaxy constructed their doorways to cater for 12-foot-tall superhumans, and only remember to mention any sort of issue when it's someone trying to sit in a Primarch's over-sized chair.
I totally agree with the OP, and think the obsession with size is ridiculous. I almost bought the Guilliman model, until I saw it in person. It was the first Primarch model I saw, and it was foolishly large. I don't want it in my army.
I like my Space Marines at 7ish feet tall, and prefer my Primarchs on the same scale. Otherwise the best defense against Primarchs is tight hallways, and I feel like the Space Marines are being pushed down that route as well. Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
Magnus is another thing all together. He's a Daemon Primarch, a complete warp mutant whose appearance can be shifted at will. He's completely turned his back on his own humanity, thus, hes a monster.
Insectum7 wrote: I totally agree with the OP, and think the obsession with size is ridiculous. I almost bought the Guilliman model, until I saw it in person. It was the first Primarch model I saw, and it was foolishly large. I don't want it in my army.
I like my Space Marines at 7ish feet tall, and prefer my Primarchs on the same scale. Otherwise the best defense against Primarchs is tight hallways, and I feel like the Space Marines are being pushed down that route as well. Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
Magnus is another thing all together. He's a Daemon Primarch, a complete warp mutant whose appearance can be shifted at will. He's completely turned his back on his own humanity, thus, hes a monster.
To be fair if you play the RPG games stairs are the most likely thing to kill Marines, kind of makes sense that the hallway would get the better of a Primarch.
The regular Primarchs being huge is a little silly... largely because they tend to forget about it aside from when it matters to the narrative. They wander about the place as if everyone in the galaxy constructed their doorways to cater for 12-foot-tall superhumans, and only remember to mention any sort of issue when it's someone trying to sit in a Primarch's over-sized chair.
lol, believe it or not this is actually addressed at length by Guilliman in one of the Horus Heresy novels.
"Primarch sized chairs." Direct quote. Apparently he renovated parts of Macragge to accommodate himself.
The regular Primarchs being huge is a little silly... largely because they tend to forget about it aside from when it matters to the narrative. They wander about the place as if everyone in the galaxy constructed their doorways to cater for 12-foot-tall superhumans, and only remember to mention any sort of issue when it's someone trying to sit in a Primarch's over-sized chair.
lol, believe it or not this is actually addressed at length by Guilliman in one of the Horus Heresy novels.
"Primarch sized chairs." Direct quote. Apparently he renovated parts of Macragge to accommodate himself.
The fact I they are not human.
They are basically purpose bread war machines. Most advanced biological science and strength, size, speed and etc...
Space marines are part human, there partial superhuman. But alos gentic human base.
Custodious are purpose bread and captain level space marines.
FA as know, very little humanity.
But a 12foot "perfect" killing machine.. I can see that.
I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion
Youve heard the phase 10 ft tall and bullet proof.
Im gonna primarch slap the lot of ya beetches.
if the primarch is walking down a dodgy leads to no where corridor, hes doing it wrong.
the ancient wrote: Youve heard the phase 10 ft tall and bullet proof.
Im gonna primarch slap the lot of ya beetches.
if the primarch is walking down a dodgy leads to no where corridor, hes doing it wrong.
I haven't heard that phrase, actually.
Also, if the Primarch is walking down a corridor that leads to nowhere, he probably doesn't know the corridor leads to nowhere. If he did, he wouldn't be walking down it.
They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.
No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.
They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.
No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.
So... Space Marines are xenos?
Does the Deathwatch know about this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe you should just look up how DNA works if you're gonna say things like Genestealer-Human Hybrids aren't human because only part of their DNA is human.
They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.
No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.
So... Space Marines are xenos?
Does the Deathwatch know about this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe you should just look up how DNA works if you're gonna say things like Genestealer-Human Hybrids aren't human because only part of their DNA is human.
Primarchs are not Space Marines. Space Marines are humans that are changed with augmentative surgery and the application of genetic manipulation via the Geneseed. They are, basically, mutated humans. Primarchs were never, ever human. They were grown in test tubes and their biological structure is completely different than humans or Space Marines.
As for your second point, I hardly think the snarky comments are necessary. But anyways, Genestealers alter human DNA by injecting a mutative parasite that converts the host's genome into something that will cause their children to be hybrids. Their DNA in Genestealer Hybrids is not true human DNA. The Genestealer mutates the host's DNA and the Genestealer genes take over the human side genetically and psychically. Really, it's a misnomer to even call them hybrids, since it's more like hyper-fast-paced evolution from human to Genestealer via generational reproduction. Genestealer reproduction is weird, because their genetic structure slowly becomes more and more Genestealer as the generations go on, no matter what the non-Hybrid parent is; all the the way up until the offspring is a full-fledged, Purestrain Genestealer. Really, Genestealer genomes and genetics don't follow any real-world scientific principles of genetics or genome studies, probably because the people that wrote it are game writers and not geneticists.
Darth Bob wrote: Primarchs are not Space Marines. Space Marines are humans that are changed with augmentative surgery and the application of genetic manipulation via the Geneseed. They are, basically, mutated humans. Primarchs were never, ever human. They were grown in test tubes and their biological structure is completely different than humans or Space Marines.
As for your second point, I hardly think the snarky comments are necessary. But anyways, Genestealers alter human DNA by injecting a mutative parasite that converts the host's genome into something that will cause their children to be hybrids. Their DNA in Genestealer Hybrids is not true human DNA. The Genestealer mutates the host's DNA and the Genestealer genes take over the human side genetically and psychically. Really, it's a misnomer to even call them hybrids, since it's more like hyper-fast-paced evolution from human to Genestealer via generational reproduction. Genestealer reproduction is weird, because their genetic structure slowly becomes more and more Genestealer as the generations go on, no matter what the non-Hybrid parent is; all the the way up until the offspring is a full-fledged, Purestrain Genestealer. Really, Genestealer genomes and genetics don't follow any real-world scientific principles of genetics or genome studies, probably because the people that wrote it are game writers and not geneticists.
So, DNA in WH40k doesn't work like it does in real life.
Do we actually have any references to the height of the primarchs? Is it just heads and shoulders above a normal marine?
Going by the life size drawing GW has of a Space Marine they are 7ft tall. I know the the top of the scale says 8ft but the bottom says 1ft, 8-1=7. If primarchs are heads and shoulders above a marine, that would make them 8ft-9ft tall, maybe 10ft max.
Drummernathan wrote: I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion
Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.
In the novels, space marines sometimes refer to themselves as "transhuman" and even refer to unaugmented humans as "human," sometimes disparagingly, to distinguish themselves.
Drummernathan wrote: I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion
Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.
How much taller though?
Relative heights don't really mean anything unless we get the actual measurement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TedNugent wrote: In the novels, space marines sometimes refer to themselves as "transhuman" and even refer to unaugmented humans as "human," sometimes disparagingly, to distinguish themselves.
...Like how Magneto in X-Men uses "human" as a disparaging term? And Mystique thinks that "homo sapien" is a slur?
Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.
The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.
Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.
Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.
The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.
Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.
Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.
Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?
Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?
Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?
Elbows wrote: I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's Plasma Annihilator.
Lorgar actually WAS hit by a weapon from a Warhound Titan but survived (albeit half-melted). The real question is why don't Titans hunt specifically for enemy Primarchs when they're in their command vehicles on the battlefield? A few of them (Angron, Leman Russ) wouldn't even be that hard to find...
Elbows wrote: I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's Plasma Annihilator.
Lorgar actually WAS hit by a weapon from a Warhound Titan but survived (albeit half-melted). The real question is why don't Titans hunt specifically for enemy Primarchs when they're in their command vehicles on the battlefield? A few of them (Angron, Leman Russ) wouldn't even be that hard to find...
Probably because based on what you just said, Titan weaponry appears to be ineffective.
We could always try orbital strikes from starship weapons.
Worst-case scenario, just Cyclonic Torpedo the planet. There's only 20 Primarchs. You have 1,000,000 planets.
I'm not fond of the clumsy attempt at portraying posthumns that the Primarchs have become.
I preferred their depiction (and that of the Emperor, for that matter) in 1st edition Space Marine. Tall, charismatic, imposing, but not freakishly big. I also ptreferred the idea of them being commanders, not champions. Hprus, Roboute Guilliman and Rogal Dorn all get some flavour text in the Space Marine rulebook, and none of them are on the front likes. Horus is doing paperwork and preparing to attend a diplomatic mission on Davin, Rogal Dorn is supervising the defence of the Imperial Palace and Guilliman is directing a battle against the Word Bearers (With Lorgar doing the same on the other side, it's implied) from a rear-area command post.
I understand the idea, that humanity has, to protect itself, turned over power to a collection of nightmarishly inhuman beings, but I don't like the final concept. Part of it is the whole "more gothic than 40k" feel and terminology. Old Epic had powered armour, computers and Imperial Commanders rather than battle plate, cogitators and Praetors. Partly that was because the universe as a whole wasn't being described in such ... thematic language, but to me it's a nice contrast to the superstition of the "present" 40k.
By contrast, the Emperor is something different. The Primarchs are twisted mirrors of humanity, each reflecting and emphasising a particular aspect, but the Emperor is a distillation of Humanity's power and potential. The Primarchs are tools to be used, the Emperor is the path to be followed.
Generally, fans of the old versions of fiction are unhappy with retcons.
But, I mean, GW's position on canon lets you pick and choose what you like, or invent your own. They never said that you HAVE to go with the most recent versions, did they?
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.
The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.
Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.
Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.
Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?
Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?
Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?
Yep. That's one of the contradictions behind the insane dogma that the imperium believes in. Genetic engineering is taboo, but it's fine and holy when the emperor does it. The imperium is founded on hypocracy.
Besides, when the emperor made the primarchs there was no imperium to speak of, or imperial faith either.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.
The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.
Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.
Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.
Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?
Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?
Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?
Yep. That's one of the contradictions behind the insane dogma that the imperium believes in. Genetic engineering is taboo, but it's fine and holy when the emperor does it. The imperium is founded on hypocracy.
Besides, when the emperor made the primarchs there was no imperium to speak of, or imperial faith either.
Maybe what happened is that the Imperium doesn't believe in the same things the Emperor does, because he died 10,000 years ago and no one remembers what he did or why.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, except Bjorn. He was around 10,000 years earlier. So were the Primarchs.
So I think the following is what would happen.
Space Wolf: "Bjorn! We're gonna wake up Roboute!"
Bjorn: "Great! Can I be there when it happens? I want to talk with him right when he wakes up and fill him in on all the things that happened in the last 10,000 years!"
Then Bjorn asks for some privacy before Roboute does something crazy like say the Emperor is not a God. He would tell him what the hell happened, and just go along with it, and keep his mouth shut, because these are not the same Space Marines that were around when Roboute went to sleep, so he should just keep his opinions to himself, tow the company line, and STAY. ALIVE.
Now that's a return of the primarchs i'd love to see Guiliman comes back and thinks 'what the hell is this place'. His populace are raving religious fanatics, and his own chapter is flaunting one of the sole reasons for his codex (splitting marines from the other armed forces) with the macragge pdf.
I'd love to see the primarchs on the run from their own maddened subjects
Ynneadwraith wrote: Now that's a return of the primarchs i'd love to see Guiliman comes back and thinks 'what the hell is this place'. His populace are raving religious fanatics, and his own chapter is flaunting one of the sole reasons for his codex (splitting marines from the other armed forces) with the macragge pdf.
I'd love to see the primarchs on the run from their own maddened subjects
It'd be funny if they went to go help the Tau.
I wonder how they'll get off the planet though. It's not like they can crew a ship on their own, and no one's going to help them.
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.
How much taller though?
Relative heights don't really mean anything unless we get the actual measurement.
Well let me get out my inch ruler and measure Guilliman, Lion and Curze and get back to you with a precise measurement of their height so you can be fully informed on the precise measurements of your fictional heroes.
Relative information is important, let me tell you why. When an archaeologist is looking at samples from a dig site, he may use radiometric dating of a molecule taken from a sample and using a half life which is pre-measured he may absolutely date the sample. However not every artifact or sample within a given layer may have that same molecule which is convenient for date measurements. Therefore you might take a sample from a higher soil layer and a lower soil layer in a dig site, absolutely date them, then compare the results to samples taken from layers in between those two layers that have been radiometrically dated to say that something between those two layers is between those two dates. So if the top layer has an artifact that is, say, 1,000 years old, and the third layer has a sample that is 2000 years old, you can then say that the 2nd layer is between 1,000 and 2,000 years old.
We know that a space marine is 8 feet tall. One of the books describes Vulkan as a big primarch, and I believe (I'm frankly not going to comb back through looking for this quote) it says he is over 3 meters in height. Curze is described as being very tall but gaunt, taller than Lion who is in turn taller than Guilliman. So probably Vulkan ~= Curze > Lion > Guilliman > Space Marine. So the average Primarch is probably slightly taller than 3 meters with some substantial variance, while wearing their armor.
Angels of Caliban says that Curze looks much less tall when he is not wearing his armor, and his armor doesn't exactly look like he's wearing stilettos, so I'm guessing that all Primarchs are also shorter outside of their armor.
Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.
How much taller though?
Relative heights don't really mean anything unless we get the actual measurement.
Well let me get out my inch ruler and measure Guilliman, Lion and Curze and get back to you with a precise measurement of their height so you can be fully informed on the precise measurements of your fictional heroes.
Relative information is important, let me tell you why. When an archaeologist is looking at samples from a dig site, he may use radiometric dating of a molecule taken from a sample and using a half life which is pre-measured he may absolutely date the sample. However not every artifact or sample within a given layer may have that same molecule which is convenient for date measurements. Therefore you might take a sample from a higher soil layer and a lower soil layer in a dig site, absolutely date them, then compare the results to samples taken from layers in between those two layers that have been radiometrically dated to say that something between those two layers is between those two dates. So if the top layer has an artifact that is, say, 1,000 years old, and the third layer has a sample that is 2000 years old, you can then say that the 2nd layer is between 1,000 and 2,000 years old.
We know that a space marine is 8 feet tall. One of the books describes Vulkan as a big primarch, and I believe (I'm frankly not going to comb back through looking for this quote) it says he is over 3 meters in height. Curze is described as being very tall but gaunt, taller than Lion who is in turn taller than Guilliman. So probably Vulkan ~= Curze > Lion > Guilliman > Space Marine. So the average Primarch is probably slightly taller than 3 meters with some substantial variance, while wearing their armor.
Angels of Caliban says that Curze looks much less tall when he is not wearing his armor, and his armor doesn't exactly look like he's wearing stilettos, so I'm guessing that all Primarchs are also shorter outside of their armor.
Yeah, I know you can't measure a fictional character.
However, the writers COULD state: "This character is 10' 4" tall."
Then you don't have to measure them.
Also... Uhh... I think I'm gonna go back to arguing about WoW lore. On WoW forums.
The people on this forum are weird... they have to guess at how power armor affects a person's height.
TedNugent wrote: Well I'm not an author sanctioned by GW. Sorry.
One of the HH books says "over 3 meters tall." That's all I've got.
I know. I wasn't suggesting you write it personally.
Also, you know what's over 3 meters? 3.5 meters. 3.2 meters. 4 meters. 5 meters. 10 meters. 1 kilometer. 1 light-year. I could keep going, but I don't actually know how big the universe is in terms of light years, so I wouldn't know when to stop adding 0s.
I'm not too keen on some of the height descriptions and prefer to imagine space marines at, on average, 7 feet and the primarchs 8-9. Maybe Alpharius at 7.5. It may not be canon but who cares?
Snake Tortoise wrote: I'm not too keen on some of the height descriptions and prefer to imagine space marines at, on average, 7 feet and the primarchs 8-9. Maybe Alpharius at 7.5. It may not be canon but who cares?
You do.
Because you're posting in a thread about how tall Primarchs are.
And then you talked about a bunch of random numbers about Space Marine and Primarch heights, that you then acknowledged were not canon.
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
Didn't the original Deatwing librarian (Two-heads talking? ) used that trick itself to walk along his world disguissed as a normal *tribal* guy when he was really walking by on his terminator armour?
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
So how can we ever know what he "really" looks like? We're basically taking him at his word, and he's deceived us before.
I much prefer the primarchs to be normal marine sized. If your 'powers' are rooted in arcane science and the blood line of the most powerful man who ever lived, size does little for you. In the same way Superman doesn't need to be 10 feet tall to do what he does, nor do the primarchs. Sanguinius is all the more impressive battling a bloodthirster if he's not almost as big as it.
I also own the original Leman Russ primarch figure so we can confidently say *at one point* GW didn't consider them giants. More creep I guess.
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
So how can we ever know what he "really" looks like? We're basically taking him at his word, and he's deceived us before.
Yeah absolutely, it could definitely be deception. He may truly be some cloud of intelligent ethereal dust for all humanity knows. I just feel that he made the primarchs in his image - but a tier or two below him to keep order if he had to and be able to rein them in - and so the Emperor we know is probably his 'preferred' or 'real' state. This is one of those things GW will likely never really explore, and will be head canon for a long time for most people.
In any case, I like the concepts of the primarchs and the Emperor being supremely above humanity, with the Astartes as the bridge joining that divide. It all works out nicely imo.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Yeah absolutely, it could definitely be deception. He may truly be some cloud of intelligent ethereal dust for all humanity knows. I just feel that he made the primarchs in his image - but a tier or two below him to keep order if he had to and be able to rein them in - and so the Emperor we know is probably his 'preferred' or 'real' state. This is one of those things GW will likely never really explore, and will be head canon for a long time for most people.
In any case, I like the concepts of the primarchs and the Emperor being supremely above humanity, with the Astartes as the bridge joining that divide. It all works out nicely imo.
Uhh, he made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. And he thinks of them as his sons. Because they are. He also considered himself to be a human, but a very, very powerful one. He didn't consider himself superior to ordinary humans, just to have a power that they lacked. And his aim was to elevate humanity, not oppress it. The 40th Millennium Imperium really is a perversion of all that the Emperor wanted. The Emperor was even tolerant of xenos, so long as they were peaceful species who didn't bother the Imperium.
However, the Primarchs were not obscenely powerful warp entities like him. They were merely clones of his physical body, though each was a bit unique, maybe altered slightly in genetics, and of course their upbringing on different planets meant they each were raised uniquely. It wasn't an attempt for the Emperor to keep control over them, since he wasn't expecting to ever be betrayed, it was just because none of them were actually like him.
However, I imagine that the Emperor's usual depiction in Horus Heresy lore was accurate. He might have illusionary powers to keep from being discovered when needed, but there's no need to keep his real body hidden in the 30th millennium, when most of humanity is working for him.
But... what's happened recently in WH40k that's made it so that people don't know all this? What have they done with the lore that people on a 40k Background forum don't know this stuff? What the hell got retconned?
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Yeah absolutely, it could definitely be deception. He may truly be some cloud of intelligent ethereal dust for all humanity knows. I just feel that he made the primarchs in his image - but a tier or two below him to keep order if he had to and be able to rein them in - and so the Emperor we know is probably his 'preferred' or 'real' state. This is one of those things GW will likely never really explore, and will be head canon for a long time for most people.
In any case, I like the concepts of the primarchs and the Emperor being supremely above humanity, with the Astartes as the bridge joining that divide. It all works out nicely imo.
Uhh, he made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. And he thinks of them as his sons. Because they are. He also considered himself to be a human, but a very, very powerful one. He didn't consider himself superior to ordinary humans, just to have a power that they lacked. And his aim was to elevate humanity, not oppress it. The 40th Millennium Imperium really is a perversion of all that the Emperor wanted. The Emperor was even tolerant of xenos, so long as they were peaceful species who didn't bother the Imperium.
However, the Primarchs were not obscenely powerful warp entities like him. They were merely clones of his physical body, though each was a bit unique, maybe altered slightly in genetics, and of course their upbringing on different planets meant they each were raised uniquely. It wasn't an attempt for the Emperor to keep control over them, since he wasn't expecting to ever be betrayed, it was just because none of them were actually like him.
However, I imagine that the Emperor's usual depiction in Horus Heresy lore was accurate. He might have illusionary powers to keep from being discovered when needed, but there's no need to keep his real body hidden in the 30th millennium, when most of humanity is working for him.
But... what's happened recently in WH40k that's made it so that people don't know all this? What have they done with the lore that people on a 40k Background forum don't know this stuff? What the hell got retconned?
Lol, relax dude.
My point was he isn't like other humans, nor are the primarchs. The thread was about our opinions on them being freaks of nature in comparison to the rest of us. I know he made the primarchs from his own genetic material, but they ARE scaled down from him. This is clear in every aspect of their reverence for him and that he even defeated a 4-God supercharged Horus.
I guess 40K lore is really serious business and we can't talk about it unless we cover every bit of lore covered in the HH books, though. Not all of us have ironclad knowledge of the background, I only started the Horus Heresy books in the past few months, currently on my 7th one. You don't need to wet yourself.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Yeah absolutely, it could definitely be deception. He may truly be some cloud of intelligent ethereal dust for all humanity knows. I just feel that he made the primarchs in his image - but a tier or two below him to keep order if he had to and be able to rein them in - and so the Emperor we know is probably his 'preferred' or 'real' state. This is one of those things GW will likely never really explore, and will be head canon for a long time for most people.
In any case, I like the concepts of the primarchs and the Emperor being supremely above humanity, with the Astartes as the bridge joining that divide. It all works out nicely imo.
Uhh, he made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. And he thinks of them as his sons. Because they are. He also considered himself to be a human, but a very, very powerful one. He didn't consider himself superior to ordinary humans, just to have a power that they lacked. And his aim was to elevate humanity, not oppress it. The 40th Millennium Imperium really is a perversion of all that the Emperor wanted. The Emperor was even tolerant of xenos, so long as they were peaceful species who didn't bother the Imperium.
However, the Primarchs were not obscenely powerful warp entities like him. They were merely clones of his physical body, though each was a bit unique, maybe altered slightly in genetics, and of course their upbringing on different planets meant they each were raised uniquely. It wasn't an attempt for the Emperor to keep control over them, since he wasn't expecting to ever be betrayed, it was just because none of them were actually like him.
However, I imagine that the Emperor's usual depiction in Horus Heresy lore was accurate. He might have illusionary powers to keep from being discovered when needed, but there's no need to keep his real body hidden in the 30th millennium, when most of humanity is working for him.
But... what's happened recently in WH40k that's made it so that people don't know all this? What have they done with the lore that people on a 40k Background forum don't know this stuff? What the hell got retconned?
Lol, relax dude.
My point was he isn't like other humans, nor are the primarchs. The thread was about our opinions on them being freaks of nature in comparison to the rest of us. I know he made the primarchs from his own genetic material, but they ARE scaled down from him. This is clear in every aspect of their reverence for him and that he even defeated a 4-God supercharged Horus.
I guess 40K lore is really serious business and we can't talk about it unless we cover every bit of lore covered in the HH books, though. Not all of us have ironclad knowledge of the background, I only started the Horus Heresy books in the past few months, currently on my 7th one. You don't need to wet yourself.
I haven't read a single Horus Heresy book in my life. This is just basic 40k stuff. From like, Codices.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure the powers that be consider the Codexes and suchlike to be more correct than the fiction and novels, so you're at somewhat of a disadvantage.
As to your comment that 'the writers COULD state: "This character is 10' 4" tall." '. I suppose they could, but I'm not sure what relevance that sort of info-dump would have. Homer didn't pause in the middle of the Iliad to give us Hector's inside leg measurement. Marines are bigger than humans, Primarchs are bigger than them. That'll do me. It's the increasing amount of bigger-ness that bugs me. I can ignore it, except when I field Fulgrim on the tabletop.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Unfortunately, I'm not sure the powers that be consider the Codexes and suchlike to be more correct than the fiction and novels, so you're at somewhat of a disadvantage.
As to your comment that 'the writers COULD state: "This character is 10' 4" tall." '. I suppose they could, but I'm not sure what relevance that sort of info-dump would have. Homer didn't pause in the middle of the Iliad to give us Hector's inside leg measurement. Marines are bigger than humans, Primarchs are bigger than them. That'll do me. It's the increasing amount of bigger-ness that bugs me. I can ignore it, except when I field Fulgrim on the tabletop.
Did they stop including fiction in the Codices at some point recently?
Personally I think it does the Primarchs (and the Emperor) a disservice to focus on them being gigantic warriors. Yes, they were unsurpassable warriors, but their real strengths should have been in their generalship, logistics, diplomacy and intuition. Something that could have such a more dramatic effect than a single OP warrior out of a whole galaxy of battles.
That said, I understand why GW did what they did. While 30K was largely myth (or the setting of epic games), it made sense for the primarchs to have a generalship focus. With the narrower character based focus of the HH book series, and the skirmish+ level focus of the HH game it is understandable to want to focus on the battlefield presence of the Primarchs.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.
The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.
Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.
Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.
Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?
Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?
Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?
Yep. That's one of the contradictions behind the insane dogma that the imperium believes in. Genetic engineering is taboo, but it's fine and holy when the emperor does it. The imperium is founded on hypocracy.
Besides, when the emperor made the primarchs there was no imperium to speak of, or imperial faith either.
Maybe what happened is that the Imperium doesn't believe in the same things the Emperor does, because he died 10,000 years ago and no one remembers what he did or why.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, except Bjorn. He was around 10,000 years earlier. So were the Primarchs.
So I think the following is what would happen.
Space Wolf: "Bjorn! We're gonna wake up Roboute!"
Bjorn: "Great! Can I be there when it happens? I want to talk with him right when he wakes up and fill him in on all the things that happened in the last 10,000 years!"
Then Bjorn asks for some privacy before Roboute does something crazy like say the Emperor is not a God. He would tell him what the hell happened, and just go along with it, and keep his mouth shut, because these are not the same Space Marines that were around when Roboute went to sleep, so he should just keep his opinions to himself, tow the company line, and STAY. ALIVE.
Hmmm... So do old Dreads really go crazy? Or is it the chapter becomes crazy which makes their older Dreads seem out of touch to them?
As to not including specific numbers for heights, etc? I think that allows readers to have a degree of say in how tall their primarchs are.
Insectum7 wrote: Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
To be fair, ship corridors and the like seem very oversized and able to fit them. Space Marines are not the only big lugs whose job it is to fight in such environments; consider another group of infamous boarding action specialists.
nareik wrote: As to not including specific numbers for heights, etc? I think that allows readers to have a degree of say in how tall their primarchs are.
I'm confused why that's a thing that the writers need to work around and why fans need to know it.
nareik wrote: As to not including specific numbers for heights, etc? I think that allows readers to have a degree of say in how tall their primarchs are.
I'm confused why that's a thing that the writers need to work around and why fans need to know it.
It's a specific, which perhaps stifles creativity.
I think that is the reason the background is so fuzzy, aka fluff.
nareik wrote: As to not including specific numbers for heights, etc? I think that allows readers to have a degree of say in how tall their primarchs are.
I'm confused why that's a thing that the writers need to work around and why fans need to know it.
It's a specific, which perhaps stifles creativity.
I think that is the reason the background is so fuzzy, aka fluff.
Why exactly does it matter how tall the Primarchs were?
BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.
BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
So how can we ever know what he "really" looks like? We're basically taking him at his word, and he's deceived us before.
The implication is that he looks like a normal dude - 'Revalation' is a character in The Last Church who is the Emperor with no glittering aura - now the glowing giant could be real and the normal dude the projection, except that when Corax first meets him he initially sees someone who looks like revalation until the image of 'The Emperor' sonewhat glitchily overlays him and ultimately sticks. Since it's hinted that Corax is mid-level pariah (compare his 'dont notice me' ability to beta bequin) it's a sensible assumption that his first impression is the (more) genuine one.
Insectum7 wrote: Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
To be fair, ship corridors and the like seem very oversized and able to fit them. Space Marines are not the only big lugs whose job it is to fight in such environments; consider another group of infamous boarding action specialists.
Not to take anything away from your point, it was well made.
Don't Ogryns suck at their job?
Insectum7 wrote: Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
To be fair, ship corridors and the like seem very oversized and able to fit them. Space Marines are not the only big lugs whose job it is to fight in such environments; consider another group of infamous boarding action specialists.
Not to take anything away from your point, it was well made.
Don't Ogryns suck at their job?
AndrewGPaul wrote: Unfortunately, I'm not sure the powers that be consider the Codexes and suchlike to be more correct than the fiction and novels, so you're at somewhat of a disadvantage.
As to your comment that 'the writers COULD state: "This character is 10' 4" tall." '. I suppose they could, but I'm not sure what relevance that sort of info-dump would have. Homer didn't pause in the middle of the Iliad to give us Hector's inside leg measurement. Marines are bigger than humans, Primarchs are bigger than them. That'll do me. It's the increasing amount of bigger-ness that bugs me. I can ignore it, except when I field Fulgrim on the tabletop.
Did they stop including fiction in the Codices at some point recently?
If you insist on nitpicking ... it was quicker than typing "the short stories, audio dramas, short pieces in supplements and novels". There's never been much in the way of stories in the Codexes - as opposed to the pseudo-factual descriptive text. The fact remains; the vast majority of the Heresy background isn't in Codexes or even Forge World's book, so you're arguing from a position of ignorance if you've not read anything else.
Part of the problem I have is that the Marines and Primarchs are so inhuman in their psychology that they're not interesting IMO to read about. The colour pieces in 1st edition Space Marine did a good job - even to 11-year-old me - of explaining the sense of betrayal, confusion and frustration felt by the troops on both sides. The newer fiction, not so much
I hate every model that is huge so yes, i dislike the idea of the Primarchs being giant freaks. IMHO they should have ghazgkull size, that is a model that i consider big without being huge, so i found it balanced.
Insectum7 wrote: Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.
To be fair, ship corridors and the like seem very oversized and able to fit them. Space Marines are not the only big lugs whose job it is to fight in such environments; consider another group of infamous boarding action specialists.
Yeah that's certainly true, and a lot of imperial architecture seems to be made for the grand of scale. But is there a real benefit to being so big? Do the benefits (if any) outweigh the downsides? Are all imperial structures, across a billion worlds, built with the Standardized Imperial Construction Codes which allow even the biggest abhumans to travel without hinderance? Is is beneficial to have a leader who can't even ride in the most standard of army transports (Rhinos) of the forces under his command?
Like, I'm not a small guy, I'm 6'2". But last year the NFL Superbowl was in my town (without my prior knowledge, because I don't pay attention to those sorts of things), and as I'm walking downtown I came across an abnormally huge guy, presumably one of the players, but I have no idea. He was taller than me by a bit, maybe 6'5", but he was big boned and obviously athletic, and that was all it took to be an imposing character. A few blocks later on my way downtown there was a crowd surrounding some NFL star, I don't remember who, and he was flashing a charismatic grin and people were taking pictures and all that, and though he was obviously an incredible athelete, he was my height, in fact I might have had an inch on him. I guess my point is that "impressiveness" for Primarchs (and Space Marines in general) has somehow gotten reduced to "height".
I'm also recalling the Delta guys is the movie Sicario. On the introduction to the team, they are obviously big and very fit guys. The way the camera shoots them, especially next to Emily Blunt, makes them look even bigger. But in the scene with the shootout on the highway, they're next to cars, and you can see that they're not abnormally tall or anything. It's not like they need to be giants to be imposing, they just need to be fit enough to look the part and (probably more importantly) move with smooth precision and lethal intent. And their next combat scene is they go into tight tunnels to engage drug runners. Imagine if the adolescent fantasy of the 10-12 foot tall Primarch was trying to do that. It'd look ridiculous.
Napoleon was a little guy, you don't have to be big to be "great". People can be "giant" without being ludicrously incompatible with human sized tools, buildings, vehicles, furniture. And I doubt every imperial and alien building, tunnel, door was built to "Ogryn Code". I get that 40K is a far cry from realistic, but the "hero gigantism" thing is really overdone, IMO. I'd prefer a within-normal-sized hero with a less material aura of "heroic charisma and supreme skill".
The average frenchman of that age was slightly under 5'4".
So about 3" taller than average. He did like his personal guard to be some of his tallest soldiers, to give his circle an air of intimidation.
Huh, well how about that. British propaganda has apparently done it's work, "Napoleonic complex" and everything. WIki gives 5'6", but thanks for the heads up, regardless.
That said, it wasn't like he was 8 feet tall and required some supersized horse mount.
The average frenchman of that age was slightly under 5'4".
So about 3" taller than average. He did like his personal guard to be some of his tallest soldiers, to give his circle an air of intimidation.
Huh, well how about that. British propaganda has apparently done it's work, "Napoleonic complex" and everything. WIki gives 5'6", but thanks for the heads up, regardless.
That said, it wasn't like he was 8 feet tall and required some supersized horse mount.
Part of it was that Napoleon chose huge guys for his bodyguard; If you saw him being dwarfed by the 6' + soldiers standing round him, you might think he was short too.
And also perhaps that the French foot was 10% longer at the time. 1.68m is 5'6" in English units, but only 5' in French units (one French inch was 27.8mm rather than 25.4).
At some point you physically cannot add more muscle to a humanoid frame before it becomes impractical. Many body builders literally cannot touch their own shoulders or back due to the sheer bulk of muscle on their arms.
Primarchs were meant to be many times stronger than a standard marine. If you piled on the muscle mass of a primarch onto a marine he'd probably be a literal ball and be unable to move well in combat.
Even assuming magick sooper science, muscle density has a definite upper limit that cannot be surpassed (i.e. the size of a cell). You can't just make muscles "more effecient" indefinitely. That's probably why primarchs had to be bigger; the emperor perfected physiological modification and simply had to scale up to make any improvements.
I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.
It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.
If we are going to line them up from tallest to shortest I see it going:
Emperor
Adeptus Custodes
Primarch
Space Marines
IG Then those other smaller like fellows.
How big would you say Thunder Warriors are compared to Astartes and Custodians?
From the Word Bearers' conflict with surviving Thunder Warriors there's a description of '4 or 5 astartes lying slain next to the hulking carcass of a Thunder Warrior'. suggesting that they're significantly larger than a regular Astartes.
Ynneadwraith wrote: How big would you say Thunder Warriors are compared to Astartes and Custodians?
From the Word Bearers' conflict with surviving Thunder Warriors there's a description of '4 or 5 astartes lying slain next to the hulking carcass of a Thunder Warrior'. suggesting that they're significantly larger than a regular Astartes.
Thunder Warriors are new to me, or to my memory.
But I would say they are at least same size as Custodes, if not a little taller.
I do imagine all of this retelling of tales to make them appear bigger is an effort to appear heroic. If such beings were real, they all would be small, hunched backed, greasy, dirty, old men...that smell of unknown cheeses.
ProtoClone wrote: I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.
It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.
If we are going to line them up from tallest to shortest I see it going: Emperor Adeptus Custodes Primarch Space Marines IG Then those other smaller like fellows.
I'd prefer that the Spazz Emprah was human sized and that primarchs were the size of marines, or just slightly larger. I don't understand why they have to be demon machines. The were genetic progenitors of marines. Its logical that they would be the same size as their genetic similars which were derived from them.
Of course I always preferred that marines themselves were human sized, or slightly larger, and that their stature (and strength) resulted from their ridiculously large marine armor.
I never understood the need to make them physically pseudogiantlike. All that mass has to be protected after all, and pretty soon you're talking crisis suit size. And if your armor weighs a literal ton, its all about the "power" part of power armor that matters, not your physical strength (all aspects in line with Starship Troopers, who were similar to apes in armor but if the armor switched off, they were frozen in place).
I think it's worth repeating that they are meant to reflect Greek gods and the like, hence the fantastical size - it is meant to evoke their superhuman, if not outright inhuman nature. I do not see any problems with this.
Is this thread for real or just trolling? Seriously people are debating the realism of primarchs, what classifies as post/super humam and even the scales of models.
40k is and has been a lot of things but it has never been realistic as a setting and the models and game have never been in scale.
Sweet merciful emperor what has the internetz come to?
Spudasaurous wrote: Is this thread for real or just trolling? Seriously people are debating the realism of primarchs, what classifies as post/super humam and even the scales of models.
40k is and has been a lot of things but it has never been realistic as a setting and the models and game have never been in scale.
Sweet merciful emperor what has the internetz come to?
Don't be a party pooper.
Debating fiction in logical terms has been a passtime for as long as fiction has existed.
I always seen space marines and primarchs as more of figure heads. Their effectiveness is over done to inspire the people.
If marines where as perfect as they claim the imperal guard would not be needed.
So the primarchs are made to look perfect huge and menising then they actually are for people to have a figure head to get behind. So all their exploits and such is overdone because it is second hand account. Hell wasn't it lorgar or one of them that's first memory was he was on the side of a cliff and knew if he fell he would die?
I like to think that the special gene-crafting that the Emperor did was writing plot-armour and an overall 'largeness' of character into the Primarchs, rather than just tweaking their telomeres to make them immortal. They were crafted on a metaphysical level, not merely the genetic information expressing their biological parts, but also the genetic information fixing their fates and their place in the universe.
I like to think of Astartes as being 6'-7' but Andre the Giant-wide in proportion, whereas the Primarchs were similarly big but not afflicted by the gigantism of the Astartes process.
Nurglitch wrote: I like to think that the special gene-crafting that the Emperor did was writing plot-armour and an overall 'largeness' of character into the Primarchs, rather than just tweaking their telomeres to make them immortal. They were crafted on a metaphysical level, not merely the genetic information expressing their biological parts, but also the genetic information fixing their fates and their place in the universe.
I like to think of Astartes as being 6'-7' but Andre the Giant-wide in proportion, whereas the Primarchs were similarly big but not afflicted by the gigantism of the Astartes process.
I think if I understand you correctly it kinda makes sense, in order to keep the legion up to code they are placed with their pure gene code marker. The primarch who they can use as a template to keep their code up to date. Or back to origins as you could say.
I do sometimes think it's a bit comical whenever a primarch interacts with a human that they're talking to something that barely reaches their waist.
Elbows wrote: I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by... a Titan's plasma annihilator
At best I reckon that Vulkan, as the largest Primarch, is only going to be at maximum 9ft in full TDA, shorter in PA. Most other Primarchs, I guess would be around 7-8ft depending. I don't mind the idea of them being tall compared to a human, but anywhere bigger than 8ft on average is too much IMHO. In terms of doorways and such, their size changes over history anyway. If I walk into an Elizabethan Tudor house, I'm gonna be close to banging my head and I'm roughly 5'6, because people were a lot smaller back then. However, in my own Victorian house, the doorways are that much bigger again so I'm fine. Architectural styles change all the time so it's not too far fetched to believe that by M30, the average doorway may be 7ft x 4ft, to accommodate all shapes and sizes of people and machines. Sure, it might be a squeeze for an 8ft Primarch, but there's plenty of tall people who just duck when it comes to a low doorway. By way of comparison, if you've ever played a HALO game, Spartans are said to be 7ft in Mjolnir Armour. They look tall next to humans, but not freakish - that's how high I imagine a marine would be.
For example (I know it's Halo, but it represents the same sorts of heights marines are said to be):
Spoiler:
Guy playing Master Chief is 6ft 8in outside his armour, possibly a little more inside. According to Google. the lass next to him is 5'2". I couldn't find out the lad's height (Which probably says something about the internet). However, if she's a short human and he's a tall human, then they are both short compared to the 'Spartan'. Figure it's similar for a Space Marine.
Spoiler:
^7ft Spartan, Normal Sized Human.
Spoiler:
^8ft Sanghelii, Normal Human
Spoiler:
^Finally, a pretty good comparison of 8ft Sanghelii, 7ft Spartan.
Making the Primarchs and the Carriongod homongous and Dragonball level overpowered is imo just an extremely lazy way to avoid overly much effort to make them otherwise interesting.
Logic, fine characterisation and reasonable plots? Who needs such heresy! Lets bring more exhausting battlescenes were Gary Stu takes on entire planets almost by himself.
Don't get me wrong, i love some well written action but just as large swaths of BL have become little more than badly written bolterporn so have the protagonists become little more than badly written
caricatures with stupendous powers (as i said, easier to impress trough scale than trough good writing) but otherwise very little substance.
Its already ben beaten to gak in this thread but the Primarch's aren't human at all. Built from essence of the emperor, warp tech and with the best genetech ever created. The Emperor himself exerted so much of himself in this project that even he could never do it again. And that he was doing this while taking over and unifying the world with his thunder warriors (Could have taken hundreds of years to complete and perfect).
They are supposed to be extremely unnatural. A Primarch is to a marine as a marine is to a normal human. Humans were so put off by Primarch's that in their presence forgot basic motor function.
So back to the original thread, They are not Brutish, ungainly, freaks like Orks. They are calculating, brilliant, and magestic. Also FW needed to make their models in a class to themselves. As to stand out on the table top like they would have in battle.
Magnus is a deamon Prince model. He is supposed to be huge.... all fluffy. So will all the other Primarch princes that get released.
Another common trend in this thread is why havnt they been destroyed in the hundreds of years of combat in the crusade. By orbital blasts etc.
Black library intentionally writes novels and fluff that with them doing to insane. Primarch's charging into hell sells novels.
But realistically, Like all commander's they command... Even with the ability to destroy and kill on their own. Their best weapons are their legions and fleets.... They use their Marines. And occasionnaly insert themselves in areas of highpayoff. ie Horus teleporting to kill the human proxy emperor in the first book.
Also they have a destiny yet to be fulfilled. The warp is on many of their sides. And their latent psychic power or armor and tech helps avoid death from a titan (lorgar.. sick).
KingDeath wrote: Making the Primarchs and the Carriongod homongous and Dragonball level overpowered is imo just an extremely lazy way to avoid overly much effort to make them otherwise interesting.
Logic, fine characterisation and reasonable plots? Who needs such heresy! Lets bring more exhausting battlescenes were Gary Stu takes on entire planets almost by himself.
Don't get me wrong, i love some well written action but just as large swaths of BL have become little more than badly written bolterporn so have the protagonists become little more than badly written
caricatures with stupendous powers (as i said, easier to impress trough scale than trough good writing) but otherwise very little substance.
ProtoClone wrote: I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.
It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.
That's not problem I think. Problem is difference is too much. I always liked idea of primarch being about as much taller to marine as marine is to human.
Giant Primarchs are silly (and giant Emperor even more so.)
Sure, I'm fine with the Primarchs being somewhat larger than an average marine, but like a head taller at most. A heroic leader that stands out, not some ridiculous giant monstrosity that makes the normal marines to look like toddlers.
The giant Primarch thing was started by BL, but unfortunately it was adopted by FW and now by the main studio too. (I'd love to see new scale Primarch trying to wear the Lion Helm...)
Insectum7 wrote: Magnus is another thing all together. He's a Daemon Primarch, a complete warp mutant whose appearance can be shifted at will. He's completely turned his back on his own humanity, thus, hes a monster.
The Emp does all that as well.
It all goes back to the 10ft tall and bullet proof phrase.
Most house doors I see are about 7ft tall. Wheres the majesty if someone has to bow walking into the Austen Tayshus guvs pad.
Theyd be smashing up the govnas house or hitting some power plant. Or just walking through wood and plaster.
Primarchs would never be house to house clearing. Thats a Guard job.
There is one, and only one, explanation that actually makes sense regarding Big E (given that he's supposedly godly-powerful, yet needed help to conquer Terra, and needed help to conquer the galaxy which he didn't actually do very well)...
Spoiler:
Think of what real-world religions do with their icons: they make up crap to make them seem more impressive.
Take Jesus. If he even existed, I'm fairly certain he'd have been just a normal dude. As the decades pass, stories of his exploits (written in a countless number of different iterations of books) become wilder and wilder. Now, in the present day we've got a Holy Son of God who could walk on water, turn water into wine, resurrect himself and heal the sick.
Apply that realistic view of religion to the Emperor, and what you get is a clever warlord born during the Age of Strife (first time there's actual bonafide evidence of him doing something), who through his own wits and scientific brilliance conquered Terra and forged a galactic empire. A powerful man, brilliant scientist, talented psyker and likely genetically engineered, but a man nonetheless. Not a God.
Then, after his internment onto the Golden Throne, there's 10,000 years of Chinese Whispers twisting what he actually was into the religious dogma we see in the year 40k. If you can get the level of twisting that turned a regular man into Jesus in just 2000 years, imagine how much can get warped in 10,000.
And, get this, because of the way belief works in 40k, the fervent beliefs of billions upon billions of humans across the galaxy have birthed a God in the image of their beliefs of The God-Emperor of Mankind. Or, at least, facilitated his apotheosis into a warp entity.
Seems much more realistic to me. And, if I'm honest, makes for a much more compelling struggle than 'Space-Nazi Superman conquers the galaxy'.
Ynneadwraith wrote: There is one, and only one, explanation that actually makes sense regarding Big E (given that he's supposedly godly-powerful, yet needed help to conquer Terra, and needed help to conquer the galaxy which he didn't actually do very well)...
Not necessarily. 'Godly-powerful' isn't a single absolute property.
From what I've read of the Heresy books the Emperor created the Primarchs because a) he couldn't be everywhere at once, especially once the Great Crusade started, and running more fleets in parallel would get the job done faster, b) he needed to be able to interface with, manipulate, and affect human society in ways that required presenting humanity with a debate/discussion, and c) because he needed to be able to put trustworthy subordinates in charge of the day-to-day. Parts B and C were things he was trying to set up for later that didn't end up coming to pass because of the Chaos Gods' interference, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a somewhat sensible reason for trying to set them up.
As for the Emperor's 'godly powers', spoilers for Master of Mankind follow:
Spoiler:
The Emperor's whole grand plan is to set up a future for Humanity where they can be cut off from the malign influence of the Warp. His first and foremost concern when he returned to Terra after putting Horus in charge of the Crusade at Ullanor was an incredibly secret project that would allow Humanity access to the Webway, thereby removing the need for Navigators, warp engines, Gellar fields, and other falliable unpleasantness that lets Chaos mess around in realspace.
The Webway Project was certainly an incredible feat; the Eldar use the Webway and understand its quirks reasonably well, but they've never been able to build/grow it (the original builders were the Old Ones who battled the Necrontyr in the early ages of the galaxy). It does, however, give us a sense of the Emperor's limitations; he was working off a peice of prototype technology from the Age of Darkness (the Golden Throne) that was damaged beyond repair when Magnus smashed his way into the palace to warn the Emperor about Horus. He's probably an immensely powerful human psyker (though I've got a pet theory that he's somehow connected to the Old Ones), he's been able to keep the webway gate Magnus broke closed up to prevent a massive daemonic incursion that'd almost certainly end with Terra getting swallowed by a Warp rift for the past ten thousand years, but at the end of the day he's still doomed because he's human (probably) and like all humans in the setting he's messing with forces beyond his control, with just enough knowledge to get himself into trouble.
The bits about the Emperor's omnipresent benevolence protecting his followers are probably bulls*** concocted by the Ecclesiarchy in the ten thousand years since the Emperor was around to tell them to go stuff it, though. Personally I'm operating on the assumption that while an explanation exists for the phenomenon of Imperial Saints it's got very little to do with the Ecclesiarchal party line about them wielding the forces of the Emperor's divine wrath.
(Addendum: And as for the original question I like the 30k Primarch models that stand head-and-shoulders over big Space Marines. They're big, but they're restrained/sensible big and they're sort of just tall enough to be a 'giant' to everyone else without being ridiculous or impractical; they're designed to invoke awe and be representations of the Emperor's will on the field, it makes sense they're set up to be taller than everybody. What I don't like is Magnus' 40k-era Titan-sized model. Size may be mutable to the creatures of the Warp but he just looks silly.)
My personal opinion is primarchs are stupid. When a battleships have the power to lay wastes to entire planets and you have 500 foot titans - I don't see the real value of making a 10 foot tall super warrior commander thing. It would have 0 actual ability to affect anything in a setting where things this powerful exist...Ofc there is the psychic element but this is also stupid - if psykers are this strong what is the point of having armies?
Oh, I absolutely agree. Just because something is more powerful than we can comprehend, it doesn't mean that it too doesn't have limits. The issue I often take with many interpretations of the Emperor is that those limits seem fairly forced and arbitrary, shifting back and forth as the plot demands it. It's an issue with making something 'god-like' and then struggling to make a compelling struggle out of it.
That's why I prefer my interpretation of the Emperor to be on the lower end of those limits.
If he's literally on a par with the Chaos Gods power-wise, psychically more capable than any other living entity, able to change his body size at will, and all these other superpowers (a term that I use in a derogatory sense when it comes to realism) then it makes for a fairly tedious character in my opinion, flawed personality or not. I absolutely love the idea in your spoiler about The Emperor being 'just smart enough to get himself into trouble', and 'messing with powers beyond his control'. Putting him on that level of capability makes for a much more compelling struggle.
Now, I had written a veritable essay about how it's better if he started off as human (and I still think it is, somewhat), but I'm coming round to the whole 'gestalt entity comprised of shaman souls' thing. With one important proviso: that he's no more powerful individually than a Daemon Prince.
He still gets to be a badass on the battlefield, still gets to be some weird otherworldly entity (which is quite grimdark for humanity to be worshipping), still gets to be a powerful psyker.
However, in relative terms he's still small-fry. He can't take the galaxy by himself. Daemon Princes have well defined limits of what they're capable of. He would need the rest of the Great Crusade to unite humanity. He's less anathema/on par with the Chaos Gods, more a bit of a trickster who's cheated them of a portion of their power.
Yep. Think I'm ok with that
As for the Primarchs, I do think FW has got it right size-wise. Significantly bigger and bulkier than a Marine, but dinky next to a Bloodthirster. I'd also like it if the rules/killyness/toughness for a standard Primarch was less than a Bloodthirster too. They're generals, not necessarily killing machines.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is primarchs are stupid. When a battleships have the power to lay wastes to entire planets and you have 500 foot titans - I don't see the real value of making a 10 foot tall super warrior commander thing. It would have 0 actual ability to affect anything in a setting where things this powerful exist...Ofc there is the psychic element but this is also stupid - if psykers are this strong what is the point of having armies?
Yes because the mighty US military hit everything, first shot, everytime. Even these days they can barely hit a tank, and they have to fire twice, just to make sure.
That 10 ft Primarch is a walking smashem up flag. Hes gonna smash up anything you bring to the table. Hiis/its foot print is probably less than 2 square meters. When hes falling from the sky and smashing up the launch pad.
Theres a reason people dont go chucking nukes around willy nilly.
Personally, I always thought of the Primarchs as being bigger than regular Space Marines, even before the Horus Heresy books started dropping.
I can sympathize with the arguments about impracticality, but I think it really just boils down to an image and style thing: they're supposed to be larger than life, living demi-gods, figureheads for the army of a galactic empire.
And to be fair, the lore has at least somewhat of a precedent for 12-foot corridors and such: the Imperium's obsession with grand scale is well documented, they're making huge doorways just for the fun of it!
I find 40K's focus suddenly on them being physical monsters to be a bit grade schoolish. The available art shows them slightly larger potentially but not gigantic. Even Horus besotted with chaotic gifts is not dramatically larger than the Spazz Emprah and other troopers.
Says the tiny little sausage dawg. theres a reason you dont hunt pigs.
The art shows them to be twice as large as humans.
Tis the ole Im 10ft tall and bullet proof phase. Or bigga iz betta.
Are you, lets say a 5.8ft guy going to tell 6.9ft guy, nope, run away.
But its the internet. So of course you are going to kill it dead. Not IRL.
Height and bulk matters. Otherwise theyd put feathers up agianst heavys. But we all know whats going to happen there.
Now people can complain, but marines could wander freely, if they gave a feth about my hab block. They might have to duck through doors
the ancient wrote: Says the tiny little sausage dawg. theres a reason you dont hunt pigs.
The art shows them to be twice as large as humans.
Tis the ole Im 10ft tall and bullet proof phase. Or bigga iz betta.
Are you, lets say a 5.8ft guy going to tell 6.9ft guy, nope, run away.
But its the internet. So of course you are going to kill it dead. Not IRL.
Height and bulk matters. Otherwise theyd put feathers up agianst heavys. But we all know whats going to happen there.
Now people can complain, but marines could wander freely, if they gave a feth about my hab block. They might have to duck through doors
Badger dogs hunt badgers actually.
Bigger guy just makes you a bigger target in a world of plasma, melta, vortex bombs etc. Size doesn't win wars. Logistics wins war.*
*Thats why the two most powerful legions, the Emperors Truck Drivers and the Iron Teamsters were so feared they were completed struck from the record, such was the fear that they would arise again.
I thought Primarchs were always huge. All the lore I read said that while the space marine stood a literal head above the normal human, the Primarchs towered over even the marines.
Plus Sanguinus was able to break a Bloodthirster's back over his knee. Assuming he's roughly the same size as, say, Gulliman, being any smaller and that would literally be physically impossible (instead of using his knee as a fulcrum to break the thing's back, he'd just be giving him one awkward acupuncture session).
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.
I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?
I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.
I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?
I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.
Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.
I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.
We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.
We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.
We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.
The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...
For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.
I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?
I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.
Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.
What would be the problem in that? I'd personally scale a Primarch at over Terminator sized, and under Dreadnought sized, purely on a logistical level for mobility.
I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.
But why? Just because someone is bigger than another, it doesn't mean the bigger person is any less smart. Size and smarts are not mutually exclusive.
We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.
No-one's saying they're better at fighting or smarter because they're bigger. I'm saying that, by making them bigger, they act as a symbol of strength and power - a morale symbol. Not their military effectiveness - their morale boosting effects. By having them as these imposing, demi-godly beings, you can inspire loyalty from mere humans, which was the goal of the Great Crusade - to unify humanity.
And no - the Primarchs are barely human. Space Marines are hardly human - they're posthuman. Primarchs are above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human.
We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.
But it stands as testament that, when even the normally powerful Space Marines can't manage, application of a single Primarch can turn the tide of a war. One Primarch can turn the tide where a hundred Space Marines could not, and a hundred Space Marines are bigger than a Primarch.
We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.
Why is being giant sized and able to manage people mutually exclusive? Just because they're bigger, it doesn't mean that they're any less capable than what they'd be as a normal sized man. By being both physically and mentally awe-inspiring, you have a good leader and figurehead in one package. They're no less impressive because of their size.
The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...
Giants can certainly be handsome. I don't see why size would detract from that. If their proportions are all fine, why would that be an issue?
For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.
Except that the demands of being a cover girl aren't the same as being a general and figurehead of a galactic military force.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.
I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?
I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.
Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.
What would be the problem in that? I'd personally scale a Primarch at over Terminator sized, and under Dreadnought sized, purely on a logistical level for mobility.
I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.
But why? Just because someone is bigger than another, it doesn't mean the bigger person is any less smart. Size and smarts are not mutually exclusive.
We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.
No-one's saying they're better at fighting or smarter because they're bigger. I'm saying that, by making them bigger, they act as a symbol of strength and power - a morale symbol. Not their military effectiveness - their morale boosting effects. By having them as these imposing, demi-godly beings, you can inspire loyalty from mere humans, which was the goal of the Great Crusade - to unify humanity.
And no - the Primarchs are barely human. Space Marines are hardly human - they're posthuman. Primarchs are above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human.
We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.
But it stands as testament that, when even the normally powerful Space Marines can't manage, application of a single Primarch can turn the tide of a war. One Primarch can turn the tide where a hundred Space Marines could not, and a hundred Space Marines are bigger than a Primarch.
We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.
Why is being giant sized and able to manage people mutually exclusive? Just because they're bigger, it doesn't mean that they're any less capable than what they'd be as a normal sized man. By being both physically and mentally awe-inspiring, you have a good leader and figurehead in one package. They're no less impressive because of their size.
The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...
Giants can certainly be handsome. I don't see why size would detract from that. If their proportions are all fine, why would that be an issue?
For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.
Except that the demands of being a cover girl aren't the same as being a general and figurehead of a galactic military force.
Another example I can think of is Gods of Egypt
In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.
Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.
In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.
I think that actually looks pretty good. Maybe a little bit too tall for me, but the proportions are just right to fit a Primarch for me.
Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.
I do apologise if you think I've been taking anything personally and being harsh about it. I'm just discussing the points raised.
My apologies if that comes across badly. I'm well aware opinions are opinions, and I'm not being influenced by any other threads when I make my comments.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
That's fine , but personally I think their physical size is good from a storytelling perspective, I believe it gives weight to their indomitable presence especially when they're described in the novels. The space marines are a step above humanity but they are so watered down and inferior compared to the primarchs that they are resculpted to emulate. I know that there is far more to power than size, but still it's a great analogy for the primarchs godly power in my opinion.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Agreed. I am fine with them being a head taller or so, but not orgryn sized leviathans.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Agreed. I am fine with them being a head taller or so, but not orgryn sized leviathans.
The Primarchs are genetically created from scratch using DNA from the Emperor himself [who is supposed to be indistinguishable from a literal god] to be walking demi gods amongst men and lead armies of superhuman warriors. They are supposed to be the most awe inspiring things bar the Emperor himself and the most fear inducing things to the enemies of man that is literally possible. Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us, like normal orks are the size of three men, with warbosses easily as big or even bigger than Primarchs, Tyranids the size of tanks and buildings and god damn demons from another dimension. They need to be seen on the battlefield as a rallying point for friendly forces, not to mention inspire limitless devotion to fight against the horrendous and seemingly limitless enemies of man.
So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.
10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.
Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us
So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.
10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.
I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?
Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?
So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.
Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.
So how can we ever know what he "really" looks like? We're basically taking him at his word, and he's deceived us before.
It does say actually no one has seen his true face and that you see who or what you want to see. Unless he wants you to see a certain image of him. [all in the horus heresy series] Also isnt it Corax who has the physic ability to hide in plain site by making people not register him when they look at him - in the raven has fallen he uses this trick to walk the Istavan V battlefield after the battle when its still filled with traitor marines. So if he can do that, i assume the most powerful psyker can also do that or batter.
I'm not a fan. I think the FW Primarchs scale well compared to normal marines; basically just as big to a marine as the marine would be to an average human. I'm talking 3-4 feet taller max. The new Guilliman model is like, two stories tall. It's a bit much if you ask me.
Luciferian wrote: I'm not a fan. I think the FW Primarchs scale well compared to normal marines; basically just as big to a marine as the marine would be to an average human. I'm talking 3-4 feet taller max. The new Guilliman model is like, two stories tall. It's a bit much if you ask me.
Indeed if we look at these, they are clearly larger but not freaking walking greater demons (ok maybe Angron...)
Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us
So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.
10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.
I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?
Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?
The motion of the ocean, ya know?
It would be a more impressive physical challenge, yes, BUT they need to be awe inspiring to super human soldiers above all else, who already are 7-8 feet tall and consider themselves "above" humanity. Big things impress the primal part of our mind. Look at the USA as a prime example - most things are unnecessarily large over there because for starters, its just more cool like that EG: You walk past a skyscraper and go wow that gak is awesome its soooo tall. You may go past a small but pretty building and think, awe cute, but you you not in awe of it. =)
Basically i totally see the reasoning for huge primarchs. Its primal man.
Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us
So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.
10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.
I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?
Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?
The motion of the ocean, ya know?
It would be a more impressive physical challenge, yes, BUT they need to be awe inspiring to super human soldiers above all else, who already are 7-8 feet tall and consider themselves "above" humanity. Big things impress the primal part of our mind. Look at the USA as a prime example - most things are unnecessarily large over there because for starters, its just more cool like that EG: You walk past a skyscraper and go wow that gak is awesome its soooo tall. You may go past a small but pretty building and think, awe cute, but you you not in awe of it. =)
Basically i totally see the reasoning for huge primarchs. Its primal man.
If a big guy accomplishes a feat, the little guys might say, "yeah of course. he's so big."
Whereas if a little guy accomplishes the same feat, the little guys would say, "Wow, that fellow, like one of us but so awesome" and I think it'd inspire them even more.
Goliath looked big and impressive, but David made quick work of him. So Goliath was just a slow, big lumbering brute, and David was the hero.
So I think its more about the feats and not the size.
Gods of Egypt made me realise this. Though one of their writers might have been inspired by the HH novels giant Primarch thing.
In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.
I think that actually looks pretty good. Maybe a little bit too tall for me, but the proportions are just right to fit a Primarch for me.
Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.
I do apologise if you think I've been taking anything personally and being harsh about it. I'm just discussing the points raised.
My apologies if that comes across badly. I'm well aware opinions are opinions, and I'm not being influenced by any other threads when I make my comments.
It just looks too freakish to me. Like how Ork Warbosses and Skaven Rat Ogres tower over others. Good for Abnett if you like it, but I honestly feel the setting would be better if the Primarchs were more normal-sized.
nareik wrote: Leaders didn't used to need to be huge in 40k because in RT/2nd ed they all wore backpack banners to be easily identified on the battleground.
Now you can't mark out your characters with pretty flags, heroic models need to be heroic^2 scale.
Well you can still use banners. Mine have them.
"what is that?"
"its a dreadnought"
"why does it have a shark's face"
"because its a dreadnought"
"Its too small."
"Its older than your Dad is. Now go away"
Being bigger comes with its own set of challenges as a warrior.
First one is keeping your skills sharp when only a hundred or so beings across universes and dimentions stand a hope in hell against you - it's tempting to just use your size "Because you can".
Dakka Wolf wrote: Being bigger comes with its own set of challenges as a warrior.
First one is keeping your skills sharp when only a hundred or so beings across universes and dimentions stand a hope in hell against you - it's tempting to just use your size "Because you can".
More importantly you are an even bigger target for the 40k equivalent of a drone strike.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Being bigger comes with its own set of challenges as a warrior.
First one is keeping your skills sharp when only a hundred or so beings across universes and dimentions stand a hope in hell against you - it's tempting to just use your size "Because you can".
More importantly you are an even bigger target for the 40k equivalent of a drone strike.
-Orbital bombardment. -Vortex missile strike. -good old fashioned bombing run -Assassin with a rifle. -Earthshaker artillery park opening up on your coordinates. I used to love that in EPIC. -Revenant titan tap dancing over and introducing the power of FREEM -Tau drone strike. --sudden appearance of a monolith where whats left of you used to be standing. -Deathwing terminator squad teleporting in. -One grot with a wrench. A very determined grot.
Imperial_grunt wrote: I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.
because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.
The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.
Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.
I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?
I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.
Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.
What would be the problem in that? I'd personally scale a Primarch at over Terminator sized, and under Dreadnought sized, purely on a logistical level for mobility.
I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.
But why? Just because someone is bigger than another, it doesn't mean the bigger person is any less smart. Size and smarts are not mutually exclusive.
We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.
No-one's saying they're better at fighting or smarter because they're bigger. I'm saying that, by making them bigger, they act as a symbol of strength and power - a morale symbol. Not their military effectiveness - their morale boosting effects. By having them as these imposing, demi-godly beings, you can inspire loyalty from mere humans, which was the goal of the Great Crusade - to unify humanity.
And no - the Primarchs are barely human. Space Marines are hardly human - they're posthuman. Primarchs are above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human.
We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.
But it stands as testament that, when even the normally powerful Space Marines can't manage, application of a single Primarch can turn the tide of a war. One Primarch can turn the tide where a hundred Space Marines could not, and a hundred Space Marines are bigger than a Primarch.
We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.
Why is being giant sized and able to manage people mutually exclusive? Just because they're bigger, it doesn't mean that they're any less capable than what they'd be as a normal sized man. By being both physically and mentally awe-inspiring, you have a good leader and figurehead in one package. They're no less impressive because of their size.
The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...
Giants can certainly be handsome. I don't see why size would detract from that. If their proportions are all fine, why would that be an issue?
For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.
Except that the demands of being a cover girl aren't the same as being a general and figurehead of a galactic military force.
Another example I can think of is Gods of Egypt
In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.
Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.
David and Goliath is a poor example because if you know the history of the events, David killing Goliath isn't impressive at all. Goliath likely suffered from bone degeneration if he really was a giant, and would have relied purely upon mass to achieve victory in a melee fight, and even then it's a wonder how he survived that long because real giants have numerous health complications that should have seen anybody easily dispatch him. Slingers in the ancient old world are one of the single deadliest missile troops to exist; they take years to train like archers, but unlike them they can reliably strike targets 100 feet away. They after all were used in chattel farming to kill Lions. If Goliath didn't have a large enough shield to cover his torso and face, David could have easily killed him, possibly on the first shot even. A brittle skull meets a stone traveling at over 150 miles per hour is going to soon result in stone embedded in the frontal lobe.
The problem that yall are not realizing is that big things are terrifying because of mass. If you've ever been around large animals you know this- horses are wonderful beasts. I love them. But they could kill you with casual ease, as they often weight in excess of a thousand pounds, sometimes even a full tonne. A stallion lightly leaned against the door of my dad's truck once, the truck door was crushed and now cannot be opened. If a horse or anything else in excess of a tonne really wanted to do harm, they can rend metal.
Humans, while we are certainly more impressive than most fauna, have our limits. It is considered remarkable when we reach seven feet tall, although we often can now compared to the past courtesy of nutrition (IIRC calculations say there's something like 3,500 seven foot tall males in the continental US). The square cube law is a and it means that as stature increases, volume increases exponentially. This results in our giants often suffering from health defects as human biology struggles greatly to support something of such stature. Like how Irish Wolfhounds live cruelly short lives as their hearts die from stress of supporting such a large body. Not only do Space Marines annihlate this rule, Primarchs trample all over it. Standing before one would be a terrifying experience because you're before an entity you know that, even if it didn't have superpowers, it would still have the raw strength from the density of its muscles to kill you with a mere slap. Add the fact that Primarchs have flesh more durable than Terminator armor or how their strength is such that they can rip through tanks, and you get something that unsurprisingly causes humans in their presence to urinate.
The Primarchs aren't human. They're monsters, freaks made by the God Emperor that humanity amplified and infused with the warp to make the galaxy safe for human life again. They're impressive and horrifying. Then you add their emotional instability and limitless wrath, and you've got something you want to view from a distance when it teleports right on top of the enemy.
Meh... I feel like normal sized people with that kind of power tests my suspension of disbelief. Kinda like in the reveals for the new god of war game when kratos overpowers that giant/troll, I can't help but think "no way is he strong enough to do that". By making them bigger it at least makes it half believable how strong they are. Also, their size makes them looks less human, which I like.
Guiliman comes back and thinks 'what the hell is this place'. His populace are raving religious fanatics, and his own chapter is flaunting one of the sole reasons for his codex (splitting marines from the other armed forces) with the macragge pdf.
, but personally I think their physical size is good from a storytelling perspective, I believe it gives weight to their indomitable presence especially when they're described in the novels. The space marines are a step above humanity but they are so watered down and inferior compared to the primarchs that they are resculpted to emulate. I know that there is far more to power than size, but still it's a great analogy for the primarchs godly power in my opinion.
and it means that as stature increases, volume increases exponentially. This results in our giants often suffering from health defects as human biology struggles greatly to support something of such stature. Like how Irish Wolfhounds live cruelly short lives as their hearts die from stress of supporting such a large body. Not only do Space Marines annihlate this rule, Primarchs trample all over it. Standing before one would be a terrifying experience because you're before an entity you know that, even if it didn't have superpowers, it would still have the