Another one to puzzle over the placement of the LoF marking on the base I see!
Not a fan of the pose. It is one of those "in the middle of doing something, or possibly tripping" poses that doesn't seem to have a clear line of action and just makes the composition feel a bit muddled. Over the top and dynamic posing is one thing, but the pose should have a clear purpose or line of action it is following. But when you experiment they can't all be winner.
Luckily not something I really need to pick up, so I can safely give it a pass.
Hmmm... the formal suit and plunging neckline feels a bit odd. I dunno. It just feels off to me. Though it's interesting to see civilian vlothes that aren't tattered robes or something.
Mastiff wrote: Hmmm... the formal suit and plunging neckline feels a bit odd. I dunno. It just feels off to me. Though it's interesting to see civilian vlothes that aren't tattered robes or something.
The Civie clothes are what sells that concept for me. I still want male with one of the Brief Case guns.
Spoiler:
A Male to match this beautiful mini
Not really loving the pose, but I could live with it.
Absolutionis wrote: omg what's with all this fanservice in Infinity? All the females are so sexualized. omg
Lol really? Its the far future, do you honestly think looking like a supermodel won´t be super cheap and widely accessible? Hell, it might be a s simple as a supplement they add to the local water supply! And just like that health issues become nearly non existent.
Beyond that, sexualized models are the norm for infinity. There´s a tragic lack of beer bellies on the male models wouldn´t you say?
Not for lack of effort on the part of Infinity players. Ask about the Fat Yuan-Yuan sometime. Infinity is not really the far future; it's about 200 years forward from now. And Absolutionist was being sarcastic, BTW.
Mastiff wrote: Hmmm... the formal suit and plunging neckline feels a bit odd...
Zatanna? Only that character has tails on its coat.
Looks like an AD lower half and a pole dancer upper half. That is what I see as odd. The unit has a so-so profile, and now a mini to match. The tactical rock could be safely and easily removed. The mini could make a decent proxy, if nothing else.
I cannot not see that little fiber just above the elbow of the left arm. It's the with scenery photo.
Mastiff wrote: Hmmm... the formal suit and plunging neckline feels a bit odd. I dunno. It just feels off to me. Though it's interesting to see civilian vlothes that aren't tattered robes or something.
The Civie clothes are what sells that concept for me. I still want male with one of the Brief Case guns.
Spoiler:
A Male to match this beautiful mini
Not really loving the pose, but I could live with it.
Where is that model from? Was it an event exclusive or an ITS prize?
I like Miranda. Her outfit reminds of Fiona from Tales from the Borderlands. Though a sexed up version of it
Honestly that is a pretty ugly model, even on a technical point its pretty ugly compared to what they usually do. The pose is weird, the face looks like a mid quality N2 model. Honestly, Infinity has dropped the ball and kicked it to the other team. All this emphasis on goofy looking sexy models....however I have been able to focus on my HH army so silver lining and all.
Mastiff wrote: Hmmm... the formal suit and plunging neckline feels a bit odd. I dunno. It just feels off to me. Though it's interesting to see civilian vlothes that aren't tattered robes or something.
The Civie clothes are what sells that concept for me. I still want male with one of the Brief Case guns.
Spoiler:
A Male to match this beautiful mini
Not really loving the pose, but I could live with it.
Where is that model from? Was it an event exclusive or an ITS prize?
I like Miranda. Her outfit reminds of Fiona from Tales from the Borderlands. Though a sexed up version of it
The CSU is the bonus preorder/first run model from Icestorm.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I would prefer Shasvastii, this would mean that the major rescuplt of this faction is under way.
From what has been said, they don't plan on doing a "major resculpt" of the faction. New Seed Soldiers and a few other things, but no new aesthetic or the like.
They look really good. I don't need more Order Sergeants, but they look good.
As for the Shasvastii pilot, they showed a pilot capsule for the Sphinx in the art book. Maybe they're going to include that with the Raicho pilot. It seems kind of silly to make a pilot for an unmanned weapon though.
Barzam wrote: They look really good. I don't need more Order Sergeants, but they look good.
As for the Shasvastii pilot, they showed a pilot capsule for the Sphinx in the art book. Maybe they're going to include that with the Raicho pilot. It seems kind of silly to make a pilot for an unmanned weapon though.
It's kind of silly to have Tech-Bees, who are supposed to be technicians not combat engineers, getting a unit...but here we are.
Barzam wrote: They look really good. I don't need more Order Sergeants, but they look good.
As for the Shasvastii pilot, they showed a pilot capsule for the Sphinx in the art book. Maybe they're going to include that with the Raicho pilot. It seems kind of silly to make a pilot for an unmanned weapon though.
It's kind of silly to have Tech-Bees, who are supposed to be technicians not combat engineers, getting a unit...but here we are.
To which I would agree with you. I find the Tech-Bees silly as a whole. They seem better suited to military propaganda than a battlefield.
Barzam wrote: They look really good. I don't need more Order Sergeants, but they look good.
As for the Shasvastii pilot, they showed a pilot capsule for the Sphinx in the art book. Maybe they're going to include that with the Raicho pilot. It seems kind of silly to make a pilot for an unmanned weapon though.
It's kind of silly to have Tech-Bees, who are supposed to be technicians not combat engineers, getting a unit...but here we are.
To which I would agree with you. I find the Tech-Bees silly as a whole. They seem better suited to military propaganda than a battlefield.
Truthfully, it seems like CB is just amazingly hesitant to admit they screwed up and would rather throw new units at problems than new profiles.
In scale that base is about 50" wide. Those Order Sergeants are practically doing the splits. Don't believe me? Go stand like that with your feet that far apart. Not so comfortable, eh? It should be easily correctable. They are very nice minis, at least from what we can tell from a video. MO players ought to be pleased with the upgrade.
Red Harvest wrote: In scale that base is about 50" wide. Those Order Sergeants are practically doing the splits. Don't believe me? Go stand like that with your feet that far apart. Not so comfortable, eh? It should be easily correctable. They are very nice minis, at least from what we can tell from a video. MO players ought to be pleased with the upgrade.
They are pretty boring models honestly. Nice design and great painting, but they remind me of the Ltd. Ed. Crane and some of the Bakunin starter in terms of lack of posing imagination.
Red Harvest wrote: In scale that base is about 50" wide. Those Order Sergeants are practically doing the splits. Don't believe me? Go stand like that with your feet that far apart. Not so comfortable, eh? It should be easily correctable. They are very nice minis, at least from what we can tell from a video. MO players ought to be pleased with the upgrade.
Good god! How many other Infinity minis have been like that the whole time? This is as bad is poopy pants space marines.
Seems like most TAG's now have a specialist profile on their existing one. Interestinlgy the Iguana can now voluntarily disembark his TAG due to the fact that he now actually possesses the Pilot special skill.
How do these new Remote Pilots work? Are they little drones that eject out of TAGs or something? Or are they just little Remotes that hang around with the TAGs? I noticed that they're actually classed as Remotes, too.
I'd imagined REM pilots can be deployed and unlike the real counterpart, there's no risk of permanently losing the TAG, if they go down. As Barzam noted, they are REM and hence have STR with FAR weaker gear as well.
Edit: It would seem PanO got the crabbiest deal of them all, expected.
Barzam wrote: How do these new Remote Pilots work? Are they little drones that eject out of TAGs or something? Or are they just little Remotes that hang around with the TAGs? I noticed that they're actually classed as Remotes, too.
Rules are in the latest (v 1.3) ITS scenario PDF. However, to quote:
ITS RULES wrote:Due to the TAGLINE project, small, semi-autonomous, auxiliary
remote action devices have been installed in every mecha-
nized unit, which the pilot can detach and operate from her
TAG or Vehicle, increasing the versatility of these units when
accomplishing objectives.
-The Remote Pilot rule applies to TAGs with the Special Skill
G: Remote Presence or G: Mnemonica.
-Also, the TAG pilots have received special training to adapt to
the new situation created by the TAGLINE project.
-TAGs which have the Special Skill: Manned and have a Troop
Profile with the Pilot skill have said Pilot profile modified.
There is also a new skill. Interesting, but more rules. Ugh. I dislike the killer hacking device ( it's bloat), so naturally I dislike seeing it on a TAG pilot. However, these changes does make taking a TAG more interesting than before, so overall I say it is a good thing.
Just please, oh please no super-sized TAGs. (Like the super-sized units we see in other TTG games. Apparently Wyrd is now infected by this sort of silliness.)
I was referring to the Colossals in Warmachine-Hordes, or the Imperial Knights(?) in 40k, and things like that. Toy sized *miniatures*. Maggie is big, but not that much bigger than before.
No there is no mention of a TAG been higher that 4m there is in the fluff an ongoing attempt to miniaturise them though Achilles been the most recent failure (or success depending who you ask)
No there is no mention of a TAG been higher that 4m there is in the fluff an ongoing attempt to miniaturise them though Achilles been the most recent failure (or success depending who you ask)
I think Alpharius was asking about the 'bird' TAGs.
There is also a new skill. Interesting, but more rules. Ugh. I dislike the killer hacking device ( it's bloat), so naturally I dislike seeing it on a TAG pilot.
How is it bloat? The KHD have made multiple very interesting profiles, added options for defensive tactics against hacking as well options for offensive tactics. Furthermore, it cost zero SWC, makes the model a specialist. The Hac Tao KHD profile is amazing, not only is he a specialist but he also gets a very good protection against the classic IMM-hack-the-HI-and-shoot-it-tactic. We also now have a cheap way of placing a Ninja Specialist, in addition the option having a SWC-free cost of adding REM's in your list, if you don't care about supportware and just want free 8 point order bots.
plastictrees wrote: Neat.
3 regular orders, 3 specialists and 2 repeaters for 50 pts isn't half bad.
Are these Manga cross over characters or just created for TAGline?
No there is no mention of a TAG been higher that 4m there is in the fluff an ongoing attempt to miniaturise them though Achilles been the most recent failure (or success depending who you ask)
I think Alpharius was asking about the 'bird' TAGs.
I was!
But I'm guessing that isn't mentioned anywhere 'officially'?
plastictrees wrote: Neat.
3 regular orders, 3 specialists and 2 repeaters for 50 pts isn't half bad.
Are these Manga cross over characters or just created for TAGline?
They're Irregular.
The second image shows them priced as a group with slightly higher individual costs and regular orders.
plastictrees wrote: Are these Manga cross over characters or just created for TAGline?
They're in the TAGline PDF. Officially, it says they're all able to be used in ITS, so they're technically official units in all non-CA lists.
Cypher and Switch are from the original Matrix movie. Cypher was the guy that betrayed the protagonists. Switch was the lady dressed in white that got killed by Cypher removing her connection.
Not sure where Bit & KISS! are from.
plastictrees wrote: Assuming these are getting minis at all hopefully they are general release and not tied to an ITS pack.
I'm pretty sure everything that is ITS-playable will eventually get a general-release model. Miranda Ashcroft was one of the few long-standing exceptions until very recently.
Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I thought that the ludicrous posing of some Infinity miniatures is just the nature of the art style CB is trying to reflect, no?
I think the boob window is sculpted though. Still, no need to paint the flesh as exposed. I just wish they'd show the CA set since that's the one I think most people want to see.
General Annoyance wrote: Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I thought that the ludicrous posing of some Infinity miniatures is just the nature of the art style CB is trying to reflect, no?
In short, no.
Anime?
Yes.
Ludicrous posing?
Not so much something they're specifically aiming for, I don't think - and while I'm not sure this is all ramped up since Digital Sculpting became more prevalent, it is a convenient target!
Not so much something they're specifically aiming for, I don't think - and while I'm not sure this is all ramped up since Digital Sculpting became more prevalent, it is a convenient target!
I thought the posing and the manga art style were more intertwined. But hey, I'm no sculptor!
I would assume that it does have something to do with digital sculpting like you said. I'm behind it, but I guess other people aren't...
I'm sure I've watched shows and read manga that had little to none elements that deal with sex appeal. Infinity has always been more in cheesecake/pin up territory. I think it's more concious decision from the designer than something that appears when importing elements from "anime" tropes. Until a year ago I've felt that the catalogue had enough variety to substitute it with miniatures that aren't designed this way. Anyway, I feel this release is more in line of CB's Bootleg line. I imagine previously released pilots in this line are suddenly going to see a spike in interest. Quite interesting.
PsychoticStorm wrote:She is posed to be taking cover while reloading maybe even behind her TAG I do not see much of an issue with the pose.
Anyway I like the model, not the hair colour though.
I don't see taking cover in any way. Having your knees flexed inward, your calves twisted outward and your ankles bent back inward. She looks more like someone suffering a severe muscle spasm in their legs, a critical skeletal failure or she is out of ammo and trying her hardest to flex her butt and distract the enemy/photoshoot. Or she is surrounded and is trained to thrust chest and butt simultaneously before death.
Infinity is really trying to become the Kardashians of tabletop games.
PsychoticStorm wrote:She is posed to be taking cover while reloading maybe even behind her TAG I do not see much of an issue with the pose.
Anyway I like the model, not the hair colour though.
I don't see taking cover in any way. Having your knees flexed inward, your calves twisted outward and your ankles bent back inward. She looks more like someone suffering a severe muscle spasm in their legs, a critical skeletal failure or she is out of ammo and trying her hardest to flex her butt and distract the enemy/photoshoot. Or she is surrounded and is trained to thrust chest and butt simultaneously before death.
Infinity is really trying to become the Kardashians of tabletop games.
This amount of salt. Hilarious to watch.
Also, isn't the old Daktari one of most sold blister packs by CB ever? She's literally a sexual fetish made to sculpt and for some reason she gets a pass but this model gets more salt than the Dead Seas.. jeez.
PsychoticStorm wrote:She is posed to be taking cover while reloading maybe even behind her TAG I do not see much of an issue with the pose.
Anyway I like the model, not the hair colour though.
I don't see taking cover in any way. Having your knees flexed inward, your calves twisted outward and your ankles bent back inward. She looks more like someone suffering a severe muscle spasm in their legs, a critical skeletal failure or she is out of ammo and trying her hardest to flex her butt and distract the enemy/photoshoot. Or she is surrounded and is trained to thrust chest and butt simultaneously before death.
Infinity is really trying to become the Kardashians of tabletop games.
This amount of salt. Hilarious to watch.
Also, isn't the old Daktari one of most sold blister packs by CB ever? She's literally a sexual fetish made to sculpt and for some reason she gets a pass but this model gets more salt than the Dead Seas.. jeez.
Never saw that model....now I realize Infinity has had a hella long history of doing sad neckbeard things.
General Annoyance wrote: I don't understand the whole "it's for sad neckbeards" or "it's all fan service garbage". Do neckbeards really not know what Pornhub is?
Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of pornographic miniatures.
General Annoyance wrote: I don't understand the whole "it's for sad neckbeards" or "it's all fan service garbage". Do neckbeards really not know what Pornhub is?
Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of pornographic miniatures.
Neither do I, but is there a reason to be so toxic about it? Condemning everyone who likes pinup-up style models as sad pathetic neckbeards, just because they enjoy something you don't seems rather... stupid to be quite frank.
Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of pornographic miniatures.
I wouldn't go as far as to call them pornographic; more like smexy
I think it just ties into the over the top nature of Infinity and the manga art style. I'm certainly not buying into Infinity now for TandA, but I don't know about other people out there.
Even if people are, I don't think it's fair to judge them as a "sad neckbeard" for it.
Chillreaper wrote: Well, if people have a problem with the Guijia pilot, then I can't wait to see the flamewar that erupts when the Techbee mini is released!
Personally, I'm stocking up on popcorn and reserving my seat...
You're saying that CB do miniatures like this... regularly?!
Chillreaper wrote: Well, if people have a problem with the Guijia pilot, then I can't wait to see the flamewar that erupts when the Techbee mini is released!
Personally, I'm stocking up on popcorn and reserving my seat...
You're saying that CB do miniatures like this... regularly?!
They don't, which is part of the issue. If they did them regularly, people would know to expect them. But cheesecake models have been showing up for a long time, at least since second edition (I never played first edition).
-Loki- wrote: They don't, which is part of the issue. If they did them regularly, people would know to expect them. But cheesecake models have been showing up for a long time, at least since second edition (I never played first edition).
Fair enough - apart from this year's releases, I don't know anything about how regularly such models pop up. But as a newcomer browsing through the store, especially in the Nomads section where my new collection came from, it's difficult for me to be surprised at such models, or to understand why people who have been into Infinity way longer than I have are still surprised with them.
The fact that CB have a Bootleg section almost entirely devoted to cheesecake should really tell people what they can expect in the future, both in and out of that line. That's just my two cents anyway.
They are sticking with the Bootleg concept for the pilots, but making them -- the new pilots-- part of the regular line. (al parecer)
Chillreaper wrote: Well, if people have a problem with the Guijia pilot, then I can't wait to see the flamewar that erupts when the Techbee mini is released!
Personally, I'm stocking up on popcorn and reserving my seat...
Already erupted on the Official Forums. I suspect so anyway. I have no intention of seeking it out.
A Saturday reveal? Re: the pose: I suspect a full bladder. And I dislike the hair. The 3 Zhanshi in the starter have poorly sculpted hair too. (IMHO.)
I'm still debating whether to even fill out the Yu Jing I have/will have when I get Dire Foes 6. ( 50-50 right now. I am so very tired of painting orange. Ugh.) That said. I'll pass on this one in either case.
Only the Raicho and it's its companion are remaining.
Earliest would be a March reveal/April release. Next month-- February reveal/March release is slated to be:
Yu Jing Starter-- Yu Jing
Hassassin Govad HMG-- Haqqislam
Moderators from Bakunin-- Nomads
Sukuel Commandos-- Tohaa
Tech-Bees-- Pan-Oceania
Depending upon how the moderatrices look, it may be an even more contentious time than right now with the Guijia Pilot.
Really, I just want that Govad HMG to be fantastic. And the Lollipop moderatrix. We have seen no renders of the Moderator box though, have we?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And at some point soon we should see the renders for this Anti-Establishment team. The Bit and Switch
etc...
SeanDrake wrote: Thats a horrible pose and a waste of a release slot. I miss well posed models since they started digital sculpting.
I found Kans Sock Puppet account!
Also, before the BEWB design/armor complaints come out, just paint it like a shirt.
You could paint as a shirt but it would still look gak due to the trying not to piss herself pose.
No I am not anyones puppet, I do agree with Kan on something's though and disagree on others.
I think Infinity did suffer from scale creep and I am unlucky enough to have a Corr squad full of child soldiers.
T&A don't bother me as cheesecake is not an issue, I do think HI with there tits hanging out is dumb.
I think CB rushed the roll out of digital sculpts before they were ready leading to the whole rage fist/tactical rock issue.
I do think CB need to look at there production capabilities because they are a bit of a joke.
Also seriously you think that pilot models is ok? I am not talking about the outfit or the lack of it, or even what the intention of the pose was. I am simply saying that the model due to the poor sulpting of the pose is trash, unless they were trying too say she needs the loo in which case they suceeded.
General Annoyance wrote: Fair enough - apart from this year's releases, I don't know anything about how regularly such models pop up. But as a newcomer browsing through the store, especially in the Nomads section where my new collection came from, it's difficult for me to be surprised at such models, or to understand why people who have been into Infinity way longer than I have are still surprised with them.
I've been into Infinity since Ice Storm came out, and I'll be honest - the cheesecake is what pulled me in. Actually, I don't really want to call it cheesecake, because that's not really fair. Infinity models are typically sexy without crossing the line to trashy (though a couple do), and they are very much in the style of something like Appleseed or Ghost in the Shell. In GitS, Major Kusanagi has been known to walk around in a thong leotard with thigh highs (or occasionally, much less). If GitS were released today, maybe it would be subject to the "only neckbeards like it" commentary, but I love that style. I love that Infinity pays homage to it without trying to copy it. Compare it to something like Relic Knights, which is aping a particular style without making it its own.
Anyway, I really think Infinity deserves major props for their character designs - I see where their inspirations came from, and hey, I loved those things too. I feel like, at this point, whining about a sexy Infinity model is a bit selfish. They don't understand what Infinity is going for, stylistically, and they aren't trying to. They just want to take the things they like about it and change the things they don't like, perhaps not realizing that the two are different sides of the same coin. You can't have an ORC Trooper without having a sexy TAG pilot, the same way that Evangelion wouldn't be Evangelion without Rei in her plug suit with bandages over one eye - the giant robots are just as fetishistic as the sexy women. In a way, it is a balancing agent that prevents the fiction from becoming too militaristic (and by that nature, somber and jingoistic). It makes it a little fun and distances it from works like Starship Troopers and the like, which stuff like 40k and Gates of Antares feel overly similar to. I saw the female models in the game and I thought Bubblegum Crisis, not VOTOMS, and that's a really important distinction for something like Infinity to make at a glance.
SeanDrake wrote: Also seriously you think that pilot models is ok? I am not talking about the outfit or the lack of it, or even what the intention of the pose was. I am simply saying that the model due to the poor sulpting of the pose is trash, unless they were trying too say she needs the loo in which case they suceeded.
Nope you're not, think it looks kind of cool (although would probably paint it with different hair colour). Of course helps that the TAG she comes from looks so damned awesome.
This kind of reaction to an unzipped top, I'm afraid to see what happens when another tech-bee pilot is revealed!
I imagined it with a small shoulder, knee and ankle guards in addition to the above. Come to think of it, this could be plugged next to Terran Republic usual attire and it wouldn't look that off, I might have seen similar helmet in the shop.
Could be someone from PanOceania my bet is on Knauff (the Manga's promo miniature) since the style of the footwear is obviously similar and it's not the classic PanO base design.
Well, Raicho Pilot. Nice shooting pose, even if it is a bit of a B&B pose. Scindron looks suitably alien. We've already seen the Haqq starter, so setting it aside, Order Sergeants win, to my eyes. But there are some low cards in that hand (Ashcroft, Guijia Pilot...or Guijia pee-alot (alt pronunciation.).
Onto February. Govad HMG! The render, I cannot comment on. I've learned that lesson. Wait for the actual mini.
Is the Scindron the Sphinx pilot? Does this mean we will see PanO remote presence TAG pilots or do the combined just have really weak wi fi and the Scindron is actually only 30 ft away from the Sphinx at all times?
plastictrees wrote: Is the Scindron the Sphinx pilot? Does this mean we will see PanO remote presence TAG pilots or do the combined just have really weak wi fi and the Scindron is actually only 30 ft away from the Sphinx at all times?
We get only one that fits all of the TAG chassis. Although with its stats I hope we don't get to see it for a long time as there are more pressing miniatures that need a release. A box of 3x Tech Bees and crabbot would work somewhat I suppose.
plastictrees wrote: Is the Scindron the Sphinx pilot? Does this mean we will see PanO remote presence TAG pilots or do the combined just have really weak wi fi and the Scindron is actually only 30 ft away from the Sphinx at all times?
It's not a pilot, but rather it's a deployable "specialist bot" or some such nonsense.
Kanluwen wrote:
It's not a pilot, but rather it's a deployable "specialist bot" or some such nonsense.
Tagline can't die quick enough IMO.
I know you hate everything, but I'll bite on this one: why is this a bad thing? TAGs are generally considered to be a poor choice in most ITS missions, due to the emphasis on specialists+order efficiency. So Corvus Belli put what are in essence trial rules into ITS games, to see how a major boost to TAGs' utility in objective-based missions would pan out. What's wrong with that?
Kanluwen wrote:
It's not a pilot, but rather it's a deployable "specialist bot" or some such nonsense.
Tagline can't die quick enough IMO.
I know you hate everything, but I'll bite on this one: why is this a bad thing? TAGs are generally considered to be a poor choice in most ITS missions, due to the emphasis on specialists+order efficiency. So Corvus Belli put what are in essence trial rules into ITS games, to see how a major boost to TAGs' utility in objective-based missions would pan out. What's wrong with that?
Because those trial rules are also mandating them add new models when there are still units/models that don't even have dossiers?
Add to it that these "trial rules" smack of things that got rumored for N3/HSN3 and it just seems more and more like they're desperate to do anything outside of actually balance their game.
Kanluwen wrote:
Because those trial rules are also mandating them add new models when there are still units/models that don't even have dossiers?
Add to it that these "trial rules" smack of things that got rumored for N3/HSN3 and it just seems more and more like they're desperate to do anything outside of actually balance their game.
What? Putting in new abilities for existing units which are considered sub-par is the very definition of balancing a game. Why are you putting trial rules in quotation marks? Rules have been added to a yearly tournament pack set of rules rather than to the core rulebooks.
EDIT: What, in your opinion, is the balance issue that they are ignoring? Your strength of feeling would indicate that it's a very serious imbalance, but most people I know consider Infinity a tightly balanced game.
What? Putting in new abilities for existing units which are considered sub-par is the very definition of balancing a game.
I have high doubts the new piloting rules will change the meta. I am curious to know, how much the pilots in the bootleg line sold and if sudden appearance of pilots isn't related to probable poor sales of that line. Personally would much prefer to see appropriate TAG to get the specialist rule and simply wouldn't have bothered with pilots. As it is, manned TAG seem to have gained a nice benefit, especially those who would prefer to be in mid - close range. Speaking from PanO side, most of my TAG want to be in long range, making any attempt at the mid - close range a rather questionable idea. Should I get there I have simply amazing WIP 10 specialist before any MOD to it are added. It's not a situation I'd like to find myself, even, if it's something I couldn't have done before. If I'd had a choice to decide, I'd rather see the missing profiles (Bagh Mari HMG for instance) than something I really can't see myself using at current time (TAG/crabbot).
The new mercenaries do appear to be great, although it does feel a bit Cygnar-ish to run mercs in my army once again. I have mixed view about the ITS winner allocating where those profiles will go after the end of the season.
Your strength of feeling would indicate that it's a very serious imbalance, but most people I know consider Infinity a tightly balanced game.
They've been tinkering with ITS ever since Paradiso. No one will probably soon forget how quickly they've changed it after they've seen the madness that is Avatar and Achilles as lieutenant - specialists or the IMP/Avatar abuse. Certain changes in N3 have been attempted to make a healthier game, order spam, preference of cheap bodies over elites, camouflage spam, changes to TAG to be less aggressive and so on. If Infinity was that tightly balanced game those changes wouldn't have happened, that's my counter argument, but they did. Some people consider or considered N2-3 TAG/HI to be fine, people are free to have their view, as am I to have my.
Kanluwen wrote: Because those trial rules are also mandating them add new models when there are still units/models that don't even have dossiers?
Add to it that these "trial rules" smack of things that got rumored for N3/HSN3 and it just seems more and more like they're desperate to do anything outside of actually balance their game.
What? Putting in new abilities for existing units which are considered sub-par is the very definition of balancing a game. Why are you putting trial rules in quotation marks? Rules have been added to a yearly tournament pack set of rules rather than to the core rulebooks.
EDIT: What, in your opinion, is the balance issue that they are ignoring? Your strength of feeling would indicate that it's a very serious imbalance, but most people I know consider Infinity a tightly balanced game.
You're kind of refuting yourself when you say things like:
TAGs are generally considered to be a poor choice in most ITS missions due to the emphasis on specialists+order efficiency.
It's been that way for quite some time, so it's not exactly a shocking or new revelation. Why did it take this long for TAGs to get this?
If they were so on the ball about game balance, they would have y'know...actually done something about it before now.
I have high doubts the new piloting rules will change the meta. I am curious to know, how much the pilots in the bootleg line sold and if sudden appearance of pilots isn't related to probable poor sales of that line. Personally would much prefer to see appropriate TAG to get the specialist rule and simply wouldn't have bothered with pilots. As it is, manned TAG seem to have gained a nice benefit, especially those who would prefer to be in mid - close range. Speaking from PanO side, most of my TAG want to be in long range, making any attempt at the mid - close range a rather questionable idea. Should I get there I have simply amazing WIP 10 specialist before any MOD to it are added. It's not a situation I'd like to find myself, even, if it's something I couldn't have done before. If I'd had a choice to decide, I'd rather see the missing profiles (Bagh Mari HMG for instance) than something I really can't see myself using at current time (TAG/crabbot).
Well we hope they will change the meta, but not trying it will not give us any answers on changing or not the Meta, TAG specialists is a big nono from the fist ITS were LTs were specialist and LT TAGs over dominated the ITS, it has been tried found broke and amended, the tiny S1 bots are not that bad, they give a specialist option at a cost, but are less vulnerable in being out than a normal pilot.
The new mercenaries do appear to be great, although it does feel a bit Cygnar-ish to run mercs in my army once again. I have mixed view about the ITS winner allocating where those profiles will go after the end of the season.
They are an experiment, its conclusion will show its results.
They've been tinkering with ITS ever since Paradiso. No one will probably soon forget how quickly they've changed it after they've seen the madness that is Avatar and Achilles as lieutenant - specialists or the IMP/Avatar abuse. Certain changes in N3 have been attempted to make a healthier game, order spam, preference of cheap bodies over elites, camouflage spam, changes to TAG to be less aggressive and so on. If Infinity was that tightly balanced game those changes wouldn't have happened, that's my counter argument, but they did. Some people consider or considered N2-3 TAG/HI to be fine, people are free to have their view, as am I to have my.
Yes, that is why the game is so balanced, find issues and fix them, it is the first time I see somebody complaining that a game developer does their job, patching their game, nothing will be perfect game balance comes from finding issues in your system, see what is used and what is not used and why it is used and address it in a timely fashion.
Knight wrote: I have high doubts the new piloting rules will change the meta. I am curious to know, how much the pilots in the bootleg line sold and if sudden appearance of pilots isn't related to probable poor sales of that line. Personally would much prefer to see appropriate TAG to get the specialist rule and simply wouldn't have bothered with pilots. As it is, manned TAG seem to have gained a nice benefit, especially those who would prefer to be in mid - close range. Speaking from PanO side, most of my TAG want to be in long range, making any attempt at the mid - close range a rather questionable idea. Should I get there I have simply amazing WIP 10 specialist before any MOD to it are added. It's not a situation I'd like to find myself, even, if it's something I couldn't have done before. If I'd had a choice to decide, I'd rather see the missing profiles (Bagh Mari HMG for instance) than something I really can't see myself using at current time (TAG/crabbot).
I think it's pretty clear that they've realised people aren't taking TAGs and its reflecting on sales. When they released N3, one of the things they said they were doing was moving the pwer behind TAGs to linked teams. It's pretty obvious it swung too far that way, as people seem to have just stopped using them.
That being said, I do like that change. If someone who is trained to spot a target from an advanced position (forward observer) is skilled enough to push a button on a console, a TAG pilot should be more than qualified. It also brings the mount/dismount into play outside of people using Expel, where you might actually want to dismount from the TAG in a hostile zone to get that button pushed.
Personally, I'm interested. I like TAGs, but they can eat up a huge amount of your list and dictate a certain playstyle. I like the idea of having my TAG pilot get out in the middle of a fight to take a console, then make a mad rush back to the TAG for safety. It's a desperat emove, but sometimes that's what can win you the game and that kind of cinematic action is what I love about Infinity.
-Loki- wrote: [I think it's pretty clear that they've realised people aren't taking TAGs and its reflecting on sales. When they released N3, one of the things they said they were doing was moving the pwer behind TAGs to linked teams. It's pretty obvious it swung too far that way, as people seem to have just stopped using them.
TAG were having trouble in N2 after ITS appeared, not everyone were playing TAG - lieutenant but removal of that rule did basically killed interest in them. N3 definitely didn't help, in addition to the power of the link teams, the HMG's ranges got changed and a lot of them lost the up close AoE ability.
Personally, I'm interested. I like TAGs, but they can eat up a huge amount of your list and dictate a certain playstyle. I like the idea of having my TAG pilot get out in the middle of a fight to take a console, then make a mad rush back to the TAG for safety. It's a desperat emove, but sometimes that's what can win you the game and that kind of cinematic action is what I love about Infinity.
I think I'd be interested as well, if my TAG were manned. It definitely appears to me as an attempt to add "cinematic element" in the game, however no one in my boring meta plays the game for that.
-Loki- wrote: That being said, I do like that change. If someone who is trained to spot a target from an advanced position (forward observer) is skilled enough to push a button on a console, a TAG pilot should be more than qualified. It also brings the mount/dismount into play outside of people using Expel, where you might actually want to dismount from the TAG in a hostile zone to get that button pushed.
Personally, I'm interested. I like TAGs, but they can eat up a huge amount of your list and dictate a certain playstyle. I like the idea of having my TAG pilot get out in the middle of a fight to take a console, then make a mad rush back to the TAG for safety. It's a desperat emove, but sometimes that's what can win you the game and that kind of cinematic action is what I love about Infinity.
Speaking for myself, I've never understood why manned TAGs just don't get given the "Hacker" skill set. As you said, an actual TAG pilot should be more than qualified to be a specialist.
First, the switch to N3 saw most HI get far cheaper (and more effective with a MOV increase putting them just 2" off of full TAG movement) while TAGs saw little to no price decrease despite suffering from a similar point-to-wound inefficiency that HI suffered under in 2nd Edition (and 1st for that matter).
Next, a great number of people (even in casual environments) play using the ITS rules and guidelines. This automatically devalues a lot of high-value units, and especially devalues TAGs. Anything that stands in the way of creating effective button-pushing hordes tends to get pushed aside in ITS conditions. Sadly, making TAGs specialists outright proved to be a step too far back in 2nd Edition. That said, the environment has changed quite a bit and Lt. TAG specialist in N3 may very well not be the same dominant force they were back when HI had no teeth.
Finally, in a game where every shot fired has a 5% chance of not just ignoring armour but dealing a wound outright, the prospect of putting all your eggs in one basket with a TAG isn't always a great idea. As it is the d20 is a very random die with a high potential for deviation and even without the crit rules as they stand the d20 can result in some pretty startling upsets (though it does share this with a great many single-die resolution systems). But with the crit rules as they stand armour is significantly devalued and points spent per wound is usually a more important measure. TAGs rely a lot on their massive armour stat to survive, but it can be ignored by a shot as easily as an LI's ARM 1. In a game where any unit has a good chance of dying even to basic small arms, armour-based survivability with a high cost (in terms of points per wound) can seem subpar to many, especially when HI can get most of the way there for a fraction of the cost (and likely have specialist profiles to boot).
TAGs aren't dead by a long shot. You can do just fine with 'em and the new suppression rules combined with their mobility can make them great on an offensive push with a bit of support. But with ITS remaining its push-button-and-pray self, it will continue to devalue high-cost units over a horde of low-cost button-pushers. Making pilots specialists may help this out a bit, but it certainly wont fix the underlying issue of the button-pushing horde anymore than a band-aid like Limited Insertion did. Either way, a great many TAGs could probably use another look in terms of costing compared to their "little" HI brethren.
Alpharius wrote: Would TAGs benefit from a "can't be crit'd" special rule, or would that be too much?
Too much, some can only reliably die only from Crits (from basic rifles) and this does not change the missions are won by objectives and not by wiping out the opponent.
Ronin_eX wrote: Finally, in a game where every shot fired has a 5% chance of not just ignoring armour but dealing a wound outright, the prospect of putting all your eggs in one basket with a TAG isn't always a great idea.
That is the underlying conclusion I had, TAG simply don't fit that well in the Infinity system.
You can do just fine with 'em and the new suppression rules combined with their mobility can make them great on an offensive push with a bit of support.
I'd rather not do this, CB introduced a lot of small and point effective heavy weapon teams who can easily out range the TAG on suppressive fire.
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't it the expansion of hacker 'powers' that also helped kill off TAGs too?
It didn't help, then you have the new E/M - isolation rules. Isolating a vital HI is bad enough, but a scenario where a TAG is isolated and all I have is an AVA: 1 Machinist to fix it. That's really bad deal CB is trying to sell/convince me that it's "fine".
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't it the expansion of hacker 'powers' that also helped kill off TAGs too?
Especially for manned ones, with the 'expel' program?
Not really. Hackers are readily dealt with. Fire. Chain Rifle. Harsh language. It was the total lack of viability of TAGs in the ITS scenarios that did it. Why spend 1/3 of your army budget on 1 unit/1 order when it can do nothing to help one achieve objectives. You need as many orders as you can get too, due to the way one achieves objectives.
Making TAGs immune to criticals doesn't address this either. Giving TAGs a path to being a specialist is a start. Giving TAGS a special TAG order in addition to a regular order might help too. Or revise the way objectives work. I've seen player fail 5-6 WIP rolls in a row. Frustrating to say the least. It is a bad mechanic as it currently stands. Of course I've been a critic of the current ITS scenario format for years. Bah. There are other ways to play that don't make taking a TAG the equivalent of chosing to lose.
I'll say that I much prefer grabbing objectives in Malifaux, which simply requires the spending of an AP. There's no getting there, then holding your breath as you flip to see if you actually do get it.
In a recent Infinity tournament, it was interesting to see people go for objectives. As a Haqqislam player, the naturally high WIP meant that I didn't have to worry too much, but even still I needed to reroll once or twice. Watching the PanO players cringe as they rolled just didn't seem right.
Honestly, consoles and antennae could be made to be a long order skill to take but require no roll. Hackers get to do it as a short order. Anything targeting an actual model or HVT could be left as whatever roll they are, but consoles and antennae are pretty universal and each factions hackers should be equally good at taking them and each factions other specialists equally average.
Malifaux also has asymmetric objectives much of the time. You may need to walk up to one of your opponent's models and deliver a message for an objective while your opponent may need to literally get one of their models killed to frame them for murder.
Infinity is more traditional in that the objectives are often symmetric. I personally like the YAMS system which introduces a bit of asymmetry where you're just as likely to need to peacefully escort a civilian as you are to simply slay your opponent's stuff. TAGs have a use there.
The focus on specialists in ITS has been a rather controversial choice that has only favored units like Hackers and made TAGs rather questionable. This TAGline system is a step in the right direction even if I'm not a fan of the "specialist" system anyways.
Malifaux's system of "insignificant" models IMO is better. Basically everyone can perform the mission objective unless they have the "insignificant" modifier often relegated to things like dogs, rats, mechanical spiders, etc. Infinity could just adopt a system where some models like Pretas, Hungries, Antipodes, Kuang Shi, Baggage Bots, and some others are incapable of performing the objective.
Knight wrote: I'd rather not do this, CB introduced a lot of small and point effective heavy weapon teams who can easily out range the TAG on suppressive fire.
It is list, table and TAG dependent of course, and it certainly wont take the meta by storm but with good positioning a TAG is still pretty hard to knock out of suppression fire position (assuming your terrain is tall enough to give them some selective corridors in a similar manner that most S2 troops take for granted). Not something to take to a tourney (where you can't guess terrain makeup), but in home games, where you can better assume table makeup (and do something other than ITS, in fact this is a fantastic place to start in general ) they can still work out well enough.
But I play Yu Jing, and we have a 59 point model that does everything a TAG can but with more mobility and often a more flexible armament to boot. So needless to say, I don't run TAGs much.
These suggestions have all been made before, here in various threads, and on the official forums. ITS scenarios first emerged for the 2013 ITS. The arguments you guys (and I) make here are the same that others have been making for the past 3.5 years. Except the Malifaux comparisons, because 3-4 years ago Malifaux was a trainwreck. CB is trying to fix things with the ITS, as we are seeing. But the scenarios are the problem... N/m it's all off-topic, so I'm done.
The Yu Jing "TAG"? which unit Ronin_eX, the Dao Fei hacker? or the Su Jian?
The focus on specialists in ITS has been a rather controversial choice that has only favored units like Hackers and made TAGs rather questionable. This TAGline system is a step in the right direction even if I'm not a fan of the "specialist" system anyways.
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I remember thinking the same when the Specialists first came into the game, and there being some cynicism at the time that it would have helped the sale of specialists and things like remotes. I guess it's a different thing to balance in terms of how people play the game in different ways. I think certainly if you play more YAMS or 20x20 it's much less of an issue.
Like the Malifaux idea, maybe that would be a different way to approach it?
Red Harvest wrote: The Yu Jing "TAG"? which unit Ronin_eX, the Dao Fei hacker? or the Su Jian?
Su-Jian all the way. Just enough armour to be worth a damn in cover without going overboard on cost, front-loaded movement profile for quick run-and-gun play (in movement mode) or TAG-level BS in combat mode. It packs effectively three wounds and comes armed with a gun for every occasion. It can climb walls, it can go prone, it can make 8" cautious moves, it can use that beautiful PH 14 score to actually dodge things.
Kind of hard for a TAG to compete with something that brings the same firepower and survivability to the table for 26-29 less points while being more flexible and manoeuvrable.
This makes me glad I stick to deathmatches for most games (although, I would play with objectives in Malifaux, as they're integrated so fully into the fabric of the game). Some people tend to dismiss simple deathmatches as brainless, but I've always thought that the simpler your task, the purer the game.
Therefore , I hope any TAG fixes don't unbalance the game outside of ITS. How is N3's non-ITS balance doing these days, anyway? I'm a little out of the loop. Is there still a sense of "it's not your list, it's you" in non-mission play or has the focus on designing for missions upset things a bit? Does anyone even play enough deathmatches to know?
I would not want to see Infinity move to the same kind of tournament setup as Malifaux. I personally dislike it's whole thing where you see the full list of scenarios, you and your opponent might not pick the same ones, and you build your army specifically tailored each round. It often left me feeling like I and my opponent were playing different games on the same board.
-Loki- wrote: In a recent Infinity tournament, it was interesting to see people go for objectives. As a Haqqislam player, the naturally high WIP meant that I didn't have to worry too much, but even still I needed to reroll once or twice. Watching the PanO players cringe as they rolled just didn't seem right.
I thought having the old Auxilia specialist to be neat solution to having mostly lower WIP specialists. They're not great, if you get only one of them on the objective, but rolling twice is better than having higher WIP. With potential AVA limit of two or three of them per sectorial it also wouldn't be an issue when spam is taken into consideration. Gives hi tech faction a benefit and keeps it up with the background.
Red Harvest wrote:Not really. Hackers are readily dealt with. Fire. Chain Rifle. Harsh language. It was the total lack of viability of TAGs in the ITS scenarios that did it. Why spend 1/3 of your army budget on 1 unit/1 order when it can do nothing to help one achieve objectives. You need as many orders as you can get too, due to the way one achieves objectives.
Most of the guys in the local meta brought a hacker for mandatory protection bubble, that was just for their HI hitter. However as you said, TAG are expensive and when you feel that you need to spend more just to keep her on the table, the question is raised of why would you field her in the first place.
.Mikes. wrote:I hope someone at CB is reading this thread and making notes,
I dread to know the content and purpose of those notes.
I'm not, if they couldn't fix Bolts, SWC on FO Acontecimento Regular and Bipandra by now.
Outside of my regular group, I know that I'll face recipe army with only faction's heavy hitter as main deviating flavour. Not really what's usually advertised or considered a problem.
Really wish CB would spend some time updating basic line infantry.
Glad to see moderators getting a much needed resculpt.
We could really use new boxes for Celestial guard, Keisotsu, Caledonian volunteers. In fact JSA & Caledonian starters are both pretty dated.
Obviously line Kazaks will be getting a proper box in AF.
Do we know if they're going to start releasing models in anticipation of AF coming up in the near future?
Them and Shas needed an overhaul. I'd like to see them try and drum up interest in anticipation of the new book with some resculpts of the more dated models out there.
Them and Shas needed an overhaul. I'd like to see them try and drum up interest in anticipation of the new book with some resculpts of the more dated models out there.
They did this with the original release of Human Sphere in 2nd Edition. The Yu Jing starter was used to showcase a bunch of new profiles we hadn't seen before. That was when we got the Shang Ji, Domaru, and Celestial Guard for the first time. So if AF is coming out some time this year or the next then it is likely we'll be seeing some new profiles creep in to the release pretty soon.
That said, after the USAriadna splash release, it is starting to look like they may be moving toward a model where they bring out sectorials without a major book release. So we may well see a whole sectorial or two drop before AF proper comes out.
Either way, they have a big announcement for some time this year and it is my hope that it will be a release announcement for one of the most long awaited books in Infinity's history (seriously, things from AF have been getting teased since the original Human Sphere dropped, though not named, mentions of its contents predate Campaign: Paradiso).
I also kind of hope that Shas and MRRF see a USAriadna style splash release prior to AF just so those players don't have to wait for the rest of us to get their factions back in fighting shape.
Them and Shas needed an overhaul. I'd like to see them try and drum up interest in anticipation of the new book with some resculpts of the more dated models out there.
They did this with the original release of Human Sphere in 2nd Edition. The Yu Jing starter was used to showcase a bunch of new profiles we hadn't seen before. That was when we got the Shang Ji, Domaru, and Celestial Guard for the first time. So if AF is coming out some time this year or the next then it is likely we'll be seeing some new profiles creep in to the release pretty soon.
That said, after the USAriadna splash release, it is starting to look like they may be moving toward a model where they bring out sectorials without a major book release. So we may well see a whole sectorial or two drop before AF proper comes out.
Either way, they have a big announcement for some time this year and it is my hope that it will be a release announcement for one of the most long awaited books in Infinity's history (seriously, things from AF have been getting teased since the original Human Sphere dropped, though not named, mentions of its contents predate Campaign: Paradiso).
I also kind of hope that Shas and MRRF see a USAriadna style splash release prior to AF just so those players don't have to wait for the rest of us to get their factions back in fighting shape.
I wasn't playing before Paradiso. I wouldn't know.
I've been hoping for new Shang Ji for some time. They did not get any useful profile updates with N3. The unit has always been some sort of superior HI choice with no remarkable qualities.
Those neglected sectorials deserve some teases to keep their fan base alive. We could also use Ariadna, Haqq & CA sneak peaks... we call know what's coming for Yu Jing, Nomads & PanO
I've been hoping for new Shang Ji for some time. They did not get any useful profile updates with N3. The unit has always been some sort of superior HI choice with no remarkable qualities.
Those neglected sectorials deserve some teases to keep their fan base alive. We could also use Ariadna, Haqq & CA sneak peaks... we call know what's coming for Yu Jing, Nomads & PanO
Funny how times change. Before N3 fixed HI and made them more competitive, the Shang Ji was basically the only "generic" no-frills HI anyone in Yu Jing would take* because the other choices (especially the old Invincible, the one that the Zuyong completely replaced). In a lot of ways the original Shang Ji was the precursor to N3's heavy infantry fix. So it holds a special place in the heart of a lot of Yu Jing players. Hopefully the Invincible Army sectorial shows 'em some love.
* Not including the JSA stuff of course, but they were far from generic even though they were cheap as chips.
Also my bet for AF will be a new Ariadna / TAK starter.
I was thinking they might do a box with new Ariadna starter & new Aleph starter
Both are old & need an update. Both will also have lots of Russians & vedics respectively just in time for AF.
Following the pattern, the next 'big' versus box set starter will be in 2018. This year we'll probably get the (re)introduction of a sectorial such as Merovingians or Shasvasti along with a big box like how USAriadna was introduced.
The only thing left for a starter is Ariadna v Combined. ALEPH and Tohaa are 'advanced' Infinity factions-- because they are in the Human Sphere-- and won't go in a starter.
I suspect that there may be a sectorial box this summer, for GenCon. It may even be an introduction to a new Sectorial , like the USAriadna Box was in 2015.
Red Harvest wrote: The only thing left for a starter is Ariadna v Combined. ALEPH and Tohaa are 'advanced' Infinity factions-- because they are in the Human Sphere-- and won't go in a starter.
I suspect that there may be a sectorial box this summer, for GenCon. It may even be an introduction to a new Sectorial , like the USAriadna Box was in 2015.
We've got a very new generic CA starter box
Spoiler:
At least it's listed as such... all those units are specific to the onyx sectorial.
Very different from the mixture of unit types we had previously:
Spoiler:
Considering AF will be more "advanced content", I don't see why it wouldn't come out with a boxed set including Tohaa and/or Aleph
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Absolutionis wrote: Following the pattern, the next 'big' versus box set starter will be in 2018. This year we'll probably get the (re)introduction of a sectorial such as Merovingians or Shasvasti along with a big box like how USAriadna was introduced.
I hope so. Shas especially need to be retooled...
But it would definitely be easier to add one or two new MRRF units and crank out resculpts. Most of their profiles are solid as is, or only need a few minor tweaks.
I don't want to break your hopes, but MRRF is very unlikely to be released this year. Why? Simply, because they won't be in the next book. AF was splited in 2 different books and next book will bring us Kazak sectorial for Ariadna.
CB said they have some plans with MRRF and they tests some rules for them to make them more rapid response force than they are now.
Also there are some new informations about Shas from last seminar (in November there was satellite tournament in Spain and Bostria said some info there).
Shasvastii will have completely new line infantery (probably more similar to other line infanteries of other CA sectorials and other factions) and Seed Soldiers will be reworked to something else.
Bostria also said that there was a time that Umbras were to be the design of the new Shasvastii. Obviously, that idea was discharged.
Melkhior wrote: I don't want to break your hopes, but MRRF is very unlikely to be released this year. Why? Simply, because they won't be in the next book. AF was splited in 2 different books and next book will bring us Kazak sectorial for Ariadna.
CB said they have some plans with MRRF and they tests some rules for them to make them more rapid response force than they are now.
Also there are some new informations about Shas from last seminar (in November there was satellite tournament in Spain and Bostria said some info there).
Shasvastii will have completely new line infantery (probably more similar to other line infanteries of other CA sectorials and other factions) and Seed Soldiers will be reworked to something else.
Bostria also said that there was a time that Umbras were to be the design of the new Shasvastii. Obviously, that idea was discharged.
I hope they stick with something that looks explicitly alien. Umbras and Morats are great, but they are still very much in the Star Trek alien vein of 'humans with makeup'
I hope they stick with something that looks explicitly alien. Umbras and Morats are great, but they are still very much in the Star Trek alien vein of 'humans with makeup'
Maybe you will be disappointed, because CB stated that new Shas will be very likely more humanoid, because according to CB humanoid aliens sell better. Only time can show us how alien Shasvastii will look like.
Other relatively good message is that there is chance to see Exrah in some form back as playable models, because in Interview with Interruptor was that Carlos Torrez (main designer of the concept arts and appereance of the models) said that he still want bug-like alien models in the game and that with 3D sculpting there is possibility to make that happen.
I've heard the same "humanoid aliens sell better" from CB. It's a bit short sighted and self-fulfilling, "Look how badly these old models are selling compared to our brand new CAD releases".
Not like I need another infinity army though!
Well Cascuda never made her money back, all Exrachs were the bottom sellers and Tohaa were good sellers from their first models, self fulfilling prophesy or experience?
I don't know I sure hope cause I really loved the Exrach, but the important people, the customers, didn't like them and I cannot say they had bad sculpts (with that first one excluded).
It never really helped that the Exrah often had pretty uninspiring sculpts or bad poses. Back when they were around they were usually pretty common on everyone's list of dud sculpts. They lacked a defined character, they had no aesthetic language (other than rubber mask bug people) and CB just never really did a good job of making the minis live up to the awesome background.
Meanwhile, the Caskuda was probably one of the largest and most complex models CB ever produced, no wonder it never sold enough to break even (especially since they made it long before they had a lot of experience in making larger sculpts). If nothing else, it suffered from their relative inexperience in the industry.
While CB have the sales numbers, that will only ever tell them part of the story. Actual consumer feedback as to why people bought or didn't buy a product will not only give them context for why some things sold and others didn't, but it will also give them feedback that can be carried to later releases. This is one place where I feel CB kind of lags in terms of understanding their customer base and what its desires might be (and often they seem less than receptive to criticism brought up by fans when they do listen to or reply to feedback). They just look at sales figures, construct a narrative as to why they think those sales figures exist and move on. An approach where you never learn the context surrounding why your products sell (or don't) is never really the way to go in the long run.
So CB can cancel things and say it was due to low sales, they're right, those things weren't selling and keeping it up was losing them money. But if they never ask us why we weren't buying them, then they are doomed to repeat it again at some point, no?
The biggest weakness of the Exrah range was that there was no colour scheme continuity - and those schemes themselves not being flattering at all to the models - between the units and a lack of much unit diversity. The sculpts were bad, but the majority of CB's old CA sculpts were petty awful. Bendy straw armed Shasvastii and Jack-o-lantern headed Morats gained their share of community despite their sculpts.
Exrah, just on their painting scheme, we all different. You had the Void and Vector operators, IIRC, in different purple and green colour schemes. The Caskudas colours were all of the place. The Iskaller was a weird bleeding fleshy tone. If a new player saw any one of those miniature and thought 'wow I want more of those guys' none of them looked like the others because of those paint schemes.
Then, even if they got past the cursory glance and figured out that those 4 were the same 'race', there was no meat to dig into, even up to the end of Paradiso. There were a total of 4 units. They had 2 specialised medium infantry, 1 specialised AD unit, and a super expensive TAG. There was no way to build a thematic list around them like you could Shasvastii or Morats, and EI lived on because EI is the core of the faction fluff.
The failing of the Exrah is entirely on CB treating them worse than they treated CA in general up to N3, where they finally seemed to remember they were a major player in the story and decided to overhaul their colour scheme and models, but by that time it was just too late for the Exrah and they were relatively easy to drop with, again, only 4 units.
The failing of the Exrah is entirely on CB treating them worse than they treated CA in general up to N3, where they finally seemed to remember they were a major player in the story and decided to overhaul their colour scheme and models, but by that time it was just too late for the Exrah and they were relatively easy to drop with, again, only 4 units.
Self-fulfilling prophecy indeed!
It is especially frustrating and upsetting given how good the Combined Army stuff has been recently...
Casey's Law wrote: Is this just new to me because I've been absent? Haven't seen it mentioned yet but it went up yesterday.
A teaser* went up for it.
It's something that we've known about for a long while but we haven't had any real solid info regarding release dates etc. They've been clamming up a lot more lately.
Yeah I have to say I'm not a fan of how much they're closing up vocally. Before N3 they spoke a lot more outside of their convention shows. Sure it led to some conflicting information but it was all in good fun.
It seems the more they grow, the more they want to be like the 'big boys' of the hobby but stop doing what drew people to be their customers in the first place.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: What is the standard procedure with special releases like the volume 2 crane agent?
We've seen SOME limited releases come out in alternate standard releases (Van Zant & unknown ranger), but others never come out at all (vol 1 Joan).
Joan is meant to at some point though, I'm pretty sure. The Crane Agent won't because there's a Crane available normally.
If Joan was going to come out, she'd be out by now.
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Bladerunner2019 wrote: What is the standard procedure with special releases like the volume 2 crane agent?
We've seen SOME limited releases come out in alternate standard releases (Van Zant & unknown ranger), but others never come out at all (vol 1 Joan).
If it's something "super special", you'll never see it again.
Remember that The Unknown Ranger release? It wasn't just "alternate standard releases". It literally was a second profile that will NEVER be available to anyone who did not get one of the GenCon models.
The general release variant is Molotok while GenCon was the Rifle.
But then we get things like the Tuareg hacker, which is gorgeous but had a perfectly serviceable existing model, no older (I dont think?) than that Joan.
Ultimately CB 'Do What They Want' . You can either decide that those are savvy decisions based on customer and product knowledge or the whims of a small creative team whose interest in certain lines waxes and wanes.
I'm just wishing for either a couple of Zhanyings (I've fallen in love with the hacker, mad traps and haris profile) or some new Celestial Guard SWC box... the current old models looks like skinny teenagers with peasant gear, compared to the current ones from the new ISS.
Zewrath wrote: I'm just wishing for either a couple of Zhanyings (I've fallen in love with the hacker, mad traps and haris profile) or some new Celestial Guard SWC box... the current old models looks like skinny teenagers with peasant gear, compared to the current ones from the new ISS.
We seriously need a new celestial guard box already
Absolutionis wrote: The general-release of the resculpted special edition isn't as high of a priority as other profiles that are outright missing a base model.
LE is much better quality, whatever organizational madness they have is their own problem, not customers. By your logic I'd expect some other models to be prioritised in the past, but we've seen other pattern of behaviour from them.
PsychoticStorm wrote:She will come out eventually
I simply question if it'll be in my lifetime and if their whimsy scheduled will result in a rushed project.
Zewrath wrote: Why not the HMG version though? Isn't that what everyone and their cat is using?
Agreed, though I use the stock FO profile frequently because specialist + K1 combi + better than aelis keesan + d-charges just in case + nulifier if you need it.
Man, I need to get my current Tohaa stuff painted up so I can justify getting these new units. Do we have any ideas about how the Tohaa list will get divided up for the sectorals that are presumably coming in the future?
BrookM wrote: If it really is a KS exclusive it would be a dick move, though I'm sure a white knight will be along shortly to explain it all away.
All I can say if KS exclusive only.. fething witches.
The way they always do this is some half-assed "generic" release that might as well have just been in the same blister since it's basically just an arm swap months down the line.
See the recent "Unknown Ranger" model v. the GenCon "Unknown Ranger" or "Axe wielding derpfest Van Zant" v. GenCon Van Zant.
BrookM wrote: If it really is a KS exclusive it would be a dick move, though I'm sure a white knight will be along shortly to explain it all away.
All I can say if KS exclusive only.. fething witches.
I wouldn't get to salty on it. It will probably be like the Infinity RPG exclusives with CB releasing their own alternate sculpts a few months after the KS closes. Like the RPG exclusives, the alternate sculpts will probably be out before the KS one.
But.. but.. it's not fair! I've been waiting on this mini for months now, just see the previous thread to see how tired people have become of me asking about it every other week.
BrookM wrote: But.. but.. it's not fair! I've been waiting on this mini for months now, just see the previous thread to see how tired people have become of me asking about it every other week.
True. But given the difference between the RPG and CB versions of the civilians. Most of the CB releases were better than the RPG exclusives. Think only the Aleph and Nomad ones were better for the RPG. The pilot will probably have an alternate weapon or have a hacker hand for the CB release and it will be out before this one
BrookM wrote: But.. but.. it's not fair! I've been waiting on this mini for months now, just see the previous thread to see how tired people have become of me asking about it every other week.
True. But given the difference between the RPG and CB versions of the civilians. Most of the CB releases were better than the RPG exclusives. Think only the Aleph and Nomad ones were better for the RPG. The pilot will probably have an alternate weapon or have a hacker hand for the CB release and it will be out before this one
The difference is the civilians served no in-game purpose.
We've been down this road too many times for me to really give them a "pass" on this crap. Every single damn one of these "alternate sculpts" should have been general releases or buildable with the general release. The vast majority are just arm/head swaps.
Why are Corvus so invested in the idea of Limited Editions? It's been like this for as long as I can think back.
They seem to have changed gear and gone for alternate sculpts to save on resources(probably in response to the fans) but it hasn't helped at all.
I feel like "Early Release" might be a system we could all get on board with. Six months to a year before the model becomes available for retail would be fine with me. It should cover ITS winners models and stuff too. I'm not much for actual gaming and I hate that there are models I just can't have unless I throw away serious cash on an ITS pack.
The O-Yoroi itself seems fine. Paint the skin like a textile and she's combat ready. It's quite an understated pose which is nice to see sometimes. The hair blowing in the wind gives a nice sense of movement to an otherwise stationary pose. Thumbs up from me.
BrookM wrote: But.. but.. it's not fair! I've been waiting on this mini for months now, just see the previous thread to see how tired people have become of me asking about it every other week.
Apparently there will be a general release of the mini, according to the Luxumbra people. What it may look like, and when it is released However, given that the O-Yoroi pilot is somewhat iconic for CB-- they even have a large O-Yoroi pilot banner hanging up in their offices, and I mean large banner.. photo here, https://www.instagram.com/p/7pv-B3gCcX/ -- I suspect the only difference is going to be the arms. If it is anything like the difference between the RPG civilian minis and the regular releases, the CB regular release will be better than the Luxumbra LE release.
However... what an unwise way to have handled this. This reeks of a last minute decision. CB needs to get the TAG pilots released before the end, well before the end, of the TAGline tournament season or so one would think.
No, old school The Games Workshop™ actually gave away (gasp!) LE releases directly, not via 3rd parties. True, and I have several of them from various Games Days.
Monkeysloth wrote: So the Oyori pilot in the KSer is their 75mm figure they talked about which means everyone can calm down and only complain about LE's outside of KSer.
the O-Yoroi Pilot is the first model from their 75mm miniatures range
One of the many surprises that Luxumbra has prepared for us is an unlockable of the 32 mm exclusive version of the O-Yoroi Pilot, ideal to play using the new ITS rules where, because of the TAGLINE Effect, all Pilots have a special presence now.
Now? It's been 32mm for a good while. Good to see that CB has recognized it. I think that the shortest human sized mini was the old Najjarun Engineer at 29mm tall. I could be mistaken. Most of the other minis I have are 34mm+ tall. (generally this means 32mm to the eyes.)
Yeh Kan's right, both a 32mm and a 75mm in the kickstarter. I'd rather it was just the 75mm to be honest although the lack of pricing suggests Corvus might be throwing a 32mm into every purchase? Seems very generous though.
I still think 1 year pre release would be better than Limited Editions, I don't mind waiting for access, I do mind being denied access. Even if it's just an arm swap.
You again?! I'm outside your window.
Pretty sure they're reading this... I'm not crazy.
Casey's Law wrote: Yeh Kan's right, both a 32mm and a 75mm in the kickstarter. I'd rather it was just the 75mm to be honest although the lack of pricing suggests Corvus might be throwing a 32mm into every purchase? Seems very generous though.
I still think 1 year pre release would be better than Limited Editions, I [i]don't[/] mind waiting for access, I do mind being denied access. Even if it's just an arm swap.
They've ramped up LE models since you left. Most are based around pre orders, others are outright sold for a short time or tournament prize support. Since 3rd edition, there's been:
Sold (released later with alternate arms) Unknown Ranger, at Gencon and webstore during that weekend. Van Zant, at Gencon and webstore during that weekend. Achilles, 10th anniversary edition. Box had both the general release and the model with alternate arms holding the Morat head.
Other Ghulam HMG, N3 style Ghulam with N1/2 style HMG. Given out to people at a convention (I can't remember which).
Authorised Bounty Hunter was later released as the ABH on bike. Sniper has the intent between the legs for the seat as well, so that was planned. Tony Macayana is alternate arms for the already released Tikbalang.
So uh, yeah. Don't hold your breath on doing less or no more LE models. They seem to enjoy the process. Personally I really want a CSU, but I didn't want it enough to buy Icestorm just for it, and on ebay they are going to bonkers money.
Nice list, and please don't take this a I am picking on you, but wasnt Armand Le Muet 2015 and ABH before that? like 2013 with the Max Scorpio ABH in 2014? Or am I going crazy?
Nice list, and please don't take this a I am picking on you, but wasnt Armand Le Muet 2015 and ABH before that? like 2013 with the Max Scorpio ABH in 2014? Or am I going crazy?
Knew I forgot some! List updated. I probably have some years wrong, but they should all be there now.
Added Achilles as well, and the super rare new Ghulam with old HMG.
Until I did this list it I didn't realize just how many they've done.
Oh I know the LE situation well despite my absence. I get my pre-orders from Shae even when I'm not actively participating. This article has been my go to recently as I thin down the pile and shift the ones I don't actually need. It's not complete but helpful at a quick glance to refresh my memory on something.
Corvus aren't on the best trajectory right now but I don't think it would be difficult for them to make alterations. And they seem to be actively reading what people have to say and responding to it so maybe they want to change things. I've got some freshness to the situation right now and it seems optimistic, give it a year and we'll see how bored I am of waiting for improvements.
Sold (released later with alternate arms) Unknown Ranger, at Gencon and webstore during that weekend. Van Zant, at Gencon and webstore during that weekend.
Minor quibble. Unknown Ranger has a bit more than just "alternate arms". The head is different, with the GenCon version actually making him y'know..."Unknown" with a half-mask covering his mouth+nose and his goggles down over his eyes.
Additionally, the GenCon version is strictly the Rifle profile. He has his rifle slung on his back, meaning he was meant to represent the Chain of Command profile. The general release was meant to be the Specialist Operative profile, as it has a Molotok.
I can't see many people being dicks about using the SO profile as CoC since it was an exclusive, but I refuse to buy the general release since I got the far superior looking GenCon version.
I think that Van Zant has a bit more going on as well, but I wasn't able to get one.
Casey's Law wrote: Corvus aren't on the best trajectory right now but I don't think it would be difficult for them to make alterations. And they seem to be actively reading what people have to say and responding to it so maybe they want to change things.
I can't say I'd agree with your observation. I don't recall when it was the last time they've put out a video on what they're doing or explaining their thoughts on matters. If they're listening to what people say it's probably during one of their seminars, warcores (people selected by them to do promotion for the game) or Spanish forum. When was the last time Koni made an appearance on Dakka? A simple, "hi", I can't say. Instead of those videos we got articles on their front page, but they're rather bad quality and don't cover the content of those videos.
Casey's Law wrote: Corvus aren't on the best trajectory right now but I don't think it would be difficult for them to make alterations. And they seem to be actively reading what people have to say and responding to it so maybe they want to change things.
I can't say I'd agree with your observation. I don't recall when it was the last time they've put out a video on what they're doing or explaining their thoughts on matters. If they're listening to what people say it's probably during one of their seminars, warcores (people selected by them to do promotion for the game) or Spanish forum. When was the last time Koni made an appearance on Dakka? A simple, "hi", I can't say. Instead of those videos we got articles on their front page, but they're rather bad quality and don't cover the content of those videos.
I'd love to see them participate more, they are definitely clamming up and that's not good. What I was referring to was a recent post about Luxumbra's kickstarter which seemed to respond very specifically to concerns and questions raised right here on Dakka. Right down to which words they emboldened it felt like they were reading what was being said and clarifying. What would have been nice was if they acknowledged that it was a response and not just a 'coincidence'. Here is a link.
Actually quite a lot of companies have been withdrawing from forums as posters lately again. Most are only reading these days. Paint it up to general internet behaviour, but for most it is more trouble than it is worth it. Instead many go for a personal approach wherever they meet their customers which often is way more productive than reading through miles of internet-vitriol.
That´s not accusing anyone, simply a general observation amongst quite some people working in this business.
As I said, this is stuff since N3. Caseys Laws left about then. The BF Yuan Yuan, Gogo Marlene and Miranda Ashcroft were around when he was playing.
And I just realised that I never thanked you for posting that list! So thank you, Loki, much appreciated even although I'm up to date. You should post the list in a new thread or something, it's a really handy resource to have around for reference.
I'm going to be really annoying and say I'm psyched for the Tech-Bee. That arm is ripe for converting other minis and she'd make a pretty cool little civi once it's been replaced on her. If Shae is down with it I'd even split a couple with someone when the time comes.
Kanluwen wrote: There. BoLS has the preview, but I won't link to their craptastic site.
I'm not sure they even monitor their affiliates a tiny bit. They still have a BTP sub forum, completely dead, on their forum. I do hope they are paying attention.
The arm does look fun, maybe with a bit of creative painting concealing the exposed bits and adding in a smaller servo-pack from Anvil Industry she'd make a fun alternate Enginseer or the like.
The bot also has potential to become a nice alternate servo-automata.
Crab Bot isn't too bad. It looks almost like it's made from a Squalo pauldron. The Tech-Bee though. That's a figure that makes me wish I could sculpt, so I could give her some pants.I wish I knew what they were thinking when they decided that was appropriate workplace attire.
Barzam wrote: Crab Bot isn't too bad. It looks almost like it's made from a Squalo pauldron. The Tech-Bee though. That's a figure that makes me wish I could sculpt, so I could give her some pants.I wish I knew what they were thinking when they decided that was appropriate workplace attire.
I don't mind fan service, anime style and cheesecake. I will say quite a few of the female poses though coming out lately just have been crappy in my opinion. I can deal with everything else but the female models have either looked like they have to go pee, dancing and skipping in the streets, to weird angle poses. I get they are meant to look dynamic and mid-motion. I can even understand that starting out digitally the pose might look fine, but once you get it on a base and look at it... at some point someone has to say, let's repose this.
I've watched a lot of anime in my time and the Tech-Bee is not anime fanservice. Anime fanservice would have her wearing a French Maid outfit or a school uniform. Both of which, oddly enough would be more dignified than that outfit. Nah, this is just cheesecake for the sake of being cheesecake.
A french maid outfit simply wouldn't make sense. The Tech-Bee basically looks like a more uniformed version of that mechanic from Final Fantasy 15, also a Japanese-influenced Japanese game:
Plus, it's supposed to be a typical pinup mechanic.
Doesn't justify the cringeworthy cheesecake, but justifies it being anime-ish and a literal pinup girl.
“The maintenance and repair battalions are the heroes of the rearguard. These maintenance technicians always keep your systems ready and tuned, no matter how specialized they are. The Tech-Bees are a real morale booster for PanOceanian troops!”
Barzam wrote: I've watched a lot of anime in my time and the Tech-Bee is not anime fanservice. Anime fanservice would have her wearing a French Maid outfit or a school uniform. Both of which, oddly enough would be more dignified than that outfit. Nah, this is just cheesecake for the sake of being cheesecake.
Not sure if your comment was in reference to mine but to be fair I said fan service, anime style and cheesecake. Wearing bikini bottoms falls into cheesecake and could be considered fan service. French maid and school uniform by themselves is not considered fan service, unless they are flashing their bikini bottoms, panties, etc. Honestly though really semantics as cheesecake/fan service is a thin border. The outfit though isn't even what bothers me, I could be ok with it.
It is the pose that I hate. It is supposed to be dynamic and action, but it comes across like she is skipping along or dancing. It isn't even a natural walk or run motion. Other examples of where I don't mind the outfit, would like to get the miniature but can't buy it because the pose is just so out of place. The Guijia Pilot (pistol), he pose makes it look like she has to use the bathroom and is holding it, doing the pee pee dance. Miranda Ashcroft looks like she is saying, "look at my butt" or "does this gun go with my shoes or make me look fat".
Absolutionis wrote: Snipershot for this week. Looks mechanical and somewhat utilitarian. Too rugged to be PanO or Aleph. Too clean to be Ariadna. Perhaps Combined?
Somewhere on the Official forum is an illustration from some Manga that shows the inspiration for the Tech-Bee. One of the original playtesters, Yasbir, posted it. This was 4 years ago or so, when the Bootleg line started. IIRC, it was a near perfect match to the Tech-Bee concept art. Maybe from Appleseed?
Barzam wrote: I've watched a lot of anime in my time and the Tech-Bee is not anime fanservice. Anime fanservice would have her wearing a French Maid outfit or a school uniform. Both of which, oddly enough would be more dignified than that outfit. Nah, this is just cheesecake for the sake of being cheesecake.
Manga is quite different to anime a lot of the time. Well, enough of a difference for me to heavily dislike anime while often delving into manga styled art.
I got into Infinity being fully aware that the universe is pretty outlandish and over the top in a lot of areas, so I have no objections to cheesecake here.
The pose is the problem; some motion poses from CB are great, like the female Ghulam from Red Veil I'm painting, or the male Corregidor Bandit, or even the new Ashcroft to an extent. The Tech Bee just doesn't seem to have any direction.
Red Harvest wrote: Somewhere on the Official forum is an illustration from some Manga that shows the inspiration for the Tech-Bee. One of the original playtesters, Yasbir, posted it. This was 4 years ago or so, when the Bootleg line started. IIRC, it was a near perfect match to the Tech-Bee concept art. Maybe from Appleseed?
Crabbot is neat. Tech-bee is actually dull. Meh.
Most likely a Shorow pinup if not actually something from Appleseed.
Cheesecake is a-okay with me and if you knew me personally that would be a big surprise I reckon. To me it's just art and nonsense and fun. I would prefer a little bit more equality(where are all the oiled up buff beefcakes in denim short shorts? ) but to be fair I wouldn't imagine the sales would be very high.
I feel like it's as part of Infinity as skulls are to 40k, it's an artistic choice and as long as that's all it is then that's great. I keep a lot of platonic female company and if I thought any of them would be offended then I'd seriously reconsider my position on cheesecake, so far they all think it's great fun.
I also want to share this because it made my day, heh!
Barzam wrote: Most likely a Shorow pinup if not actually something from Appleseed.
Masamune Shirow actually, not Shorow. (a typo?)
We've got the Govad HMG pending, and the Moderators Box. Rumor is that the box contains the spitfire, hacker, sniper and combi-rifle+pitcher moderators. CB saving the best for last, and burying the worst in the middle. Clever plan. I can always find a crabbot proxy if I need one. I know what! A mini of the Apparatus of Kwalish would serve nicely.
Casey's Law wrote: Cheesecake is a-okay with me and if you knew me personally that would be a big surprise I reckon. To me it's just art and nonsense and fun. I would prefer a little bit more equality(where are all the oiled up buff beefcakes in denim short shorts? ) but to be fair I wouldn't imagine the sales would be very high.
I feel like it's as part of Infinity as skulls are to 40k, it's an artistic choice and as long as that's all it is then that's great. I keep a lot of platonic female company and if I thought any of them would be offended then I'd seriously reconsider my position on cheesecake, so far they all think it's great fun.
I also want to share this because it made my day, heh!
I agree, feel exactly the same way.
Quite like the new mini! It's just a bit of fun really, the Tech-Bee was always going to be the most likely candidate for that style of miniature!
How do we get the O-Yoroi pilot?
If we don't want to participate in the kickstarter, will there be a standard release later? Some details would be appreciated especially since it's a limited edition
How do we get the O-Yoroi pilot?
If we don't want to participate in the kickstarter, will there be a standard release later? Some details would be appreciated especially since it's a limited edition
Long story short?
We don't know. There might be a general release later. But it looks like you're stuck backing on Kickstarter.