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Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 15:21:27


Post by: skoffs


8th edition Necron tactics discussion thread.

(First section is discussion about end of 7th. Skip to page 24 for beginning of 8th edition leaks info and strategy discussion)

Special request:
1- Let's try to keep list posting in the army list section and keep the tactics thread about tactics. (though I guess it would still be alright if the list being posted is in regards to tactics discussion​).
2- If you're going to post a list, or if you're quoting a list, please hide it under a spoiler so we don't have massive chunks of text taking up half the page.
3- Don't post copyrighted material on Dakka. If you need points and descriptions, try Battlescribe.



Necron Units Report Card
If you're new to the game and not sure what to take, try checking below as a quick guide to what most players consider to be "good" and why.
HQ
Imotekh: B+ (His lighting attack and weapon are pretty impressive, but he costs a ton. If you have a lot of Flayed Ones it may be worth taking him)
Zahndrekh: B- (His ability to shut down enemy aura effects can be pretty good. Just gotta have a way to get him close)
Trazyn: D (Probably the worst of the named characters. Not really sure what his point is)
Anrakyr: B+ (Probably our best fighty HQ, especially if accompanying choppy infantry (then he becomes an A)... really disappointing he has no methods of transport apart from on foot.)
Orikan: B (His inv save bubble is larger and extends to CC. If taking Lychguard he's an A)
Szeras: B (Good gun, but loses points for the randomness of his buff and lack of inv, plus no way to transport)
Obyron: C (Only really useful with Zahndrekh, and even then it's tricky to get his teleport gimmick to work)
Kutlakh [FW]: B (He's a bit expensive, but his bubble of influence is HUGE. He becomes an A if taking Lychguard)
Toholk [FW]: A (If there's a key vehicle in your army that needs to stay alive, you should be taking Toholk. Good weapon, too)

Overlord: A (Hands out MWBD for cheaper than all the named options. Beatstick with a Warscythe. Keep him near Immortals and Destroyers)
Destroyer Lord: A- (Another beatstick with a Warscythe. If you take him you best take Destroyers, too, as it increases his grade to A+)
Lord: B ("The Lords Will" is a more important buff for warrior blobs, now. His main roles are baby sitting blobs and filling an HQ requirement on the cheap at 76 points w/ Sword)
Cryptek: A- (Great for expensive infantry, not needed for cheaper/smaller units, eg. Immortals. Fine if filling HQ requirement, but if arbitrarily adding to Warriors... just take more Warriors)
Catacomb Command Barge: A (FAQ fixed it. Now has CHARACTER keyword, so a little easier to keep from being shot. Basically an Overlord with extra movement, wounds, toughness, and a bonus gun, all for 50-ish points more)
TROOPS
Warriors: A (Decent shooting, fairly survivable in big units. Best taken in bricks of 15-20. Having Cryptek or Ghost Ark nearby is good (one or the other, not both), but not required)
Immortals: A+ (Great shooting for both types of guns. Tesla better for longer distances, especially with MWBD and Stalker buff. MSU good for autonomous place-and-forget)
ELITE
Deceiver: A- (Fantastic power for alpha strikes. C'tan powers merely okay)
Nightbringer: A- (Combat powerhouse against infantry. Gotta get him across the table first, though)
Deathmarks: B- (Good counter to deepstrike shenanigans, best method of removing non-monster enemy buff HQs, but not much use after that)
Flayed Ones: B (Fantastic attack power in large numbers. "Deepstrike" is a little awkward, with a 9" charge required)
Lychguard: C (Great hitting power, made even better when taken with Anrakyr. Pity they're too slow)
Triarch Stalker: A (Amazing force multiplier. May need multiple, as will be targeted immediately. Pairs well with Doomsday Arks if taking HGC)
Praetorians: B+/- (Good speed, shooting, and attacks, point for point our best CC unit, only rivaled by flayed ones. B- for RoC, and a B+ for void blade and particle caster)
Tomb Stalker [FW]: A (Amazing movement, pretty killy, decent price. Worth considering for back field disruption)
FAST
Destroyers: B (Fast, great shooting, but really expensive. Must be taken in units of 4+ to be viable. 3 +1 Heavy isn't bad)
Tomb Blades: B (Super fast, amazing shooting, but also pretty expensive. Very difficult to buff)
Wraiths: C (Fast and tough, but disappointingly mediocre damage)
Scarabs: A (Cheap, fast. Good for screening and chasing objectives)
Tomb Sentinel [FW]: A (Similar to its elite brother. Amazing movement, great gun, decent price. Worth considering for surprise tank killing)
Acathrites [FW]: B (Decent speed, good shooting and CC, but price to survivability ratio is a little skewed with no inv)
HEAVY
Annihilation Barge: C (Fast, alright shooting, but too easy to kill. Decent against hordes. If you're going to take one, you better be bringing other vehicles, too)
Spyder: C+ (Worth taking with Fabricator Claw if taking lots of Vehicles. Gloom prism carrier is worth considering, but the FW monsters might be better for that. Too easy to kill)
Heavy Destroyers: B+ (Fast, great anti-vehicle shooting. Would be higher but just too expensive for a unit that must be taken in 3s to be viable. Big target for multi wound weapons)
Transcendent C'tan: D+ (Not great, especially compared to his unique elite brothers. Rarely taken)
Doomsday Ark: A (One of our best anti-vehicle units. Great with Stalker support. Try to deploy last so you can get good line of site on enemy key units)
Monolith: C+ (Glorified drop pod. Decent shooting, hard to kill, but a little overpriced. Buff to their ballistic skill was nice, )
Tesseract Ark [FW]: A+ (Our premier anti-vehicle unit. Good at pretty much everything)
Sentry Pylon [FW]: A- (Great shooting from all three types. Due to Heavy, probably not a great idea to teleport in and shoot, with -1 to hit)
FLYERS
Night Scythe: C+ (Decent shooting but easily saved against. Can drop a single unit practically anywhere, though from turn 2 on, and said unit cannot move after "disembarking")
Doom Scythe: D (Main gun always hits on a 4+. Fix that and maybe it might be worth the points)
Night Shroud [FW]: B+ (Cool bomb, but kind of gimmicky. Fairly survivable compared to other flyers)
TRANSPORT
Ghost Ark: C+ (Alright speed and shooting, but lack of OPEN TOPPED keyword really hurts. Not absolutely required to accompany Warriors)
FORTIFICATION
Tomb Citadel [FW]: F (No. Just get two Gauss Pylons for the price)
LORDS OF WAR
Tesseract Vault: D+ (Too expensive for how little firepower it brings compared to other Lords of War. Slightly better than Obelisk)
Obelisk: D- (Too expensive for how little firepower it brings compared to other Lords of War)
Gauss Pylon [FW]: A+ (Amazing shooting. Primary anti-LoW weapon)


8th Ed. offensive mathhammer tools-
http://www.dice-hammer.com/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M7tyL0_Ki19gpDOdTMRRTK74FQf4ZKATITPpFT4rWSU/edit#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HA7fEpvn5633-AHO_YKdaLw_lIgKKRtE0fBPv3JKXI8/edit?usp=sharing


Previous (7th ed) topics-

FAQ info:
Spoiler:

New FAQs just dropped so time for a new thread (the old one was 166 pages of more or less YMDC bait and now potentially outdated info).

[Copy/pasted for the lazy][spoiler]ERRATA
Page 86 – Night Scythe, Transport, Transport Capacity
Change the entry to read:
‘Fifteen models. A Night Scythe can transport
Jump Infantry.’

FAQs
Q: Could you please clarify Necron tesla weapons? If you roll a
6 to hit, do you have to roll to hit with the additional hit or is
it automatic?
A: The extra hits are automatic – you do not need to
make any more To Hit rolls.

Q: Do Canoptek Wraiths and C’tan suffer the Initiative penalty
when charging through terrain, despite their special rules which
allow them to treat other models and terrain as if they were open
ground when moving?
A: No.

Q: Do the Wraithflight and Immune to Natural Law rules work
only in the movement phase or do they work during any kind of
movement, such as Run, charge and Consolidation moves?
A: The Wraithflight and Immune to Natural Law rules
take effect any time the model moves in any phase.

Q: Can Nemesor Zahndrekh accumulate additional Victory
Points in Maelstrom of War missions by generating Warlord
Traits from the Tactical Traits using his Adaptive Tactics
special rule?
A: Yes.

Q: Does a penetrating hit that was saved (by Jinking or cover)
still cause quantum shielding to deactivate?
A: No.

Q: Does the Lance special rule work against
quantum shielding?
A: Yes.

Q: Can a unit embark on a Night Scythe other than
during deployment?
A: No.

Q: The C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer’s Gaze of Death special
rule occurs in the Shooting phase, but isn’t a shooting attack.
Can it be used in close combat? Can it be used in Overwatch?
A: Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack, so cannot be
used to fire Overwatch. It can, however, be used even if
the C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer is locked in combat,
either against the unit he is locked in combat with
or against another enemy unit within range and line
of sight.

Q: Can Eldar Warp Spiders use their Flickerjump special rule
to avoid the C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer’s Gaze of Death?
A: No.

Q: In the Canoptek Harvest Formation, can you only
include a single Canoptek Spyder or a single unit (i.e. 1-3
Canoptek Spyders)?
A: You can only include a single Canoptek Spyder model.

Q: If a unit from the Canoptek Harvest Formation started
the Movement phase within 12" of the Formation’s Canoptek
Spyder, then moved out of range later in the phase, do they
immediately lose the benefits of Adaptive Subroutines?
A: The effects always last until the start of your next
Movement phase, even if units proceed to move
out of range or the Formation’s Canoptek Spyder is
subsequently destroyed.

Q: Can units from a Canoptek Harvest that are currently
benefitting from Reanimation Protocols as a result of their
Formation’s Adaptive Subroutines also benefit from Orikan the
Diviner’s Master Chronomancer special rule?
A: Yes. In fact, they are affected by any and all modifiers
that apply to Reanimation Protocols whilst utilising
Adaptive Subroutines to gain that special rule.

Q: If Canoptek Wraiths from a Canoptek Harvest have
transdimensional beamers and the Shred special rule is chosen
as their Formation’s Adaptive Subroutines, if they started the
movement phase within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder, do their
weapons benefit from the special rule as well, or just their close
combat attacks?
A: Just their close combat attacks.

Q: Can a Triarch Praetorian fire with its rod of covenant in the
Shooting phase, and still use its melee profile in the subsequent
Assault phase?
A: Yes

Q: Is the Transcendent C’tan in Codex: Necrons intended to
replace the one in Warhammer 40,000: Escalation?
A: Yes.

Q: How many Powers of the C’tan can you fire in each
Shooting phase?
A: A model armed with Powers of the C’tan uses them
as a ranged weapon, so only one can be used in each
Shooting phase.

Q: How does the Obelisk’s Gravity Pulse special rule interact
with Flying Monstrous Creatures? Does it force a Dangerous
Terrain test even though they are usually immune to these tests?
A: No.

Q: Can Necrons decrease their Reanimation Protocol rolls
to less than 4+ for any reason, as with the Infinite Phalanx
Apocalypse Formation?
A: No.

Q: When fielding a Decurion Detachment (giving models
within it with Reanimation Protocols a +1 bonus to their
Reanimation Protocols rolls), how do further modifiers to
Reanimation Protocols (for having a Cryptek in the unit, for
example) interact with the -1 modifier from the Instant Death
special rule?
A: The end result can never be improved beyond a
4+ after all modifiers (both positive and negative)
have been applied. In this situation, the required
Reanimation Protocols roll would therefore be 4+ after
the three relevant modifiers (two +1 modifiers and one
-1 modifier) had been applied.

Q: If a unit of Deathmarks fires at a Gargantuan Monstrous
Creature on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve,
does their Hunters from Hyperspace special rule (enabling
them to wound on a 2+ with shooting attacks) take precedence
over the rule that says that Sniper weapons (like their synaptic
disintegrators) always wound a Gargantuan Creature on a 6+?
A: Yes.

Q: Can Necron characters embark upon a Ghost Ark on their
own, or must they be attached to a unit of Necron Warriors to
do so?
A: They are free to embark on their own if they wish.

Q: What are the firing arcs of the weapons mounted on Doom
Scythes and Night Scythes?
A: Treat the death ray and twin-linked tesla destructors
mounted on Doom Scythes and Night Scythes as hull-
mounted weapons (giving them 45° lines of sight).

Q: What are the firing arcs of the Obelisk and Tesseract Vault’s
tesla spheres?
A: For the purposes of establishing firing arcs, treat each
tesla sphere as a sponson-mounted weapon with a 180°
firing arc.

Q: Can a unit charge on the same turn it uses the Veil
of Darkness?
A: No.

Q: Can a unit with an attached Independent Character with
the Veil of Darkness be deployed in Deep Strike Reserve?
A: No – unless the unit already has Deep Strike from
another source.

Q: Can the Monolith use its eternity gate on the turn it arrives
from Deep Strike Reserve?
A: No.

Q: Can Jet Pack Infantry use a Monolith’s eternity gate?
A: No.

Q: If a Monolith fires its particle whip, are its gauss flux arcs
forced to fire Snap Shots?
A: Yes.

Q: Can Necron models benefit from their Reanimation
Protocols special rule before testing to see if is removed from
play by attacks such as Space Wolves’ Helfrost weapons or the
Ravenwing Dark Talon’s stasis bomb?
A: Yes. Necron Reanimation Protocols are taken at the
same time as Feel No Pain rolls would be, to potentially
avoid suffering unsaved Wounds (and any ensuing tests
that suffering an unsaved Wound may cause).

Q: Can cover saves be taken against Imotekh’s Lord of the
Storm attacks?
A: Yes.

Q: Do Night Scythes taken as Dedicated Transports for units
from a Judicator Battalion gain the Formation’s Special Rules?
A: Yes.

Q: When included in the Acquisition Phalanx Warhammer
40,000: Apocalypse Formation, Trazyn the Infinite has to
remain part of that unit. If he is subsequently slain, does he
have to leave the unit to return to battle as part of his updated
Surrogate Hosts special rule?
A: Yes.

Q: When using a Retribution Phalanx, how exactly do
you deploy returning units of Scarabs and Warriors, and
what actions can they perform on the turn they arrive in
this manner?
A: Use the rules for Deep Strike; the first model placed
must be within 3" of the Formation’s Necron Overlord,
but the rest of the unit will not scatter. Units arriving in
this manner can Run or shoot, but cannot charge, as per
the normal Deep Strike rules. Any models which cannot
be placed are destroyed.

FAQ Discussion.
Spoiler:

How do the changes affect our army building?

Some highlights:
Requizen wrote:
-You can't reembark in a Night Scythe once on the board. This was always sorta in contention, just glad to have it cleared up.

-Obelisk does not force Dangerous Terrain on FMCs. So, making it more useless.

-Deathmarks 2+ against GMC is official now, so that's not bad.

-Tesla Spheres on the Obelisk have 180 degree firing arcs, which is actually quite good despite my earlier remark.

-Retribution Phalanx cannot charge when it comes back. The answer also says "use the rules for deep strike when they come back" (paraphrased), so do they need to cluster in a ball as Deep Strikers normally do?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 15:32:41


Post by: Pickels


At the very beginning under "Errata". It states that Night Scythes can carry 15 models and can carry Jump Infantry. So Praetorians don't really have anything stopping them from starting embarked.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 15:34:43


Post by: Requizen


So it does, good on them. I must have skimmed over that. Still pretty expensive to go Praets in Scythes, but it's at least legal now.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 15:56:34


Post by: skoffs


So who are the current codex MVPs?

Top tier:
- Wraiths
- Praetorians
- Tomb Blades
- Destroyers
- ????

Mid tier:
- Deathmarks
- Flayed Ones
- ????

Bottom tier:
- all vehicles
- ????


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 16:15:32


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Good to know that the Obelisk has a pretty good firing arc, but what's up with the FMC thing?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 16:28:46


Post by: Anpu-adom


Ghost Arks and Triarch Stalkers aren't exactly bottom tier against most armies... only those that have lots of grav weapons.
Our warriors still don't need to snap shot after the Ghost Ark Jinks... that is pretty big. The whole thing brings a lot of shots to the party.
Triarch Stalker is a tax unit, but brings a lot of support and the melta shooting we sometimes need.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 16:51:29


Post by: Grimgold


FAQ is a win some loose some, I don't think the FMC change for gravity pulse really hurts the obelisks, because you can't make people take it less than they do now. The 180 degree confirms three arcs are possible (with precise facing and a few inches of distance), but once again kind of nonissue since no one is going to take it. Not sure on why there is no more embarking on the night scythe, but it's not something we were relying on.

Favorite question was:

Q: If Canoptek Wraiths from a Canoptek Harvest have
transdimensional beamers and the Shred special rule is chosen as their Formation’s Adaptive Subroutines, if they started the movement phase within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder, do their weapons benefit from the special rule as well, or just their close combat attacks?
A: Just their close combat attacks.

Someone was using their noggin, I kind of wish I'd thought of that particular combo. Too bad they put the kibosh on it because that would have been pretty handy against GMCs and vehicles.

On the plus side, wraiths can charge into cover without striking last, and space wolves hellfrost cannons can go suck a big fatty since we get RP roles on it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 16:59:47


Post by: torblind


So the 180 degree Tesla sphere, is that a vertical or horizontal arc?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 18:00:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


torblind wrote:
So the 180 degree Tesla sphere, is that a vertical or horizontal arc?

Has that ever been a question?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 18:00:55


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


torblind wrote:
So the 180 degree Tesla sphere, is that a vertical or horizontal arc?


Both.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 18:03:52


Post by: necr0n


I'd say someone needs to take a closer look to NightScythes as Triach Preatorians' rides. I haven't been a huge fan of the Judicator Battalion, but someone who fields it regularly should definetely try it out!

Also, I'll bring my love for Ghost Arks in this thread as well. This vehicle is amazingly survivable against anything (even D shots) exept mostly grav. If you can just avoid/neutralise Grav shots, you're in for quite a surprise. Ghost Arks models are very nice for abusing firing, ranges and objective grabbing. There's just about absolutely nothing stopping you from jinking every single turn and still firing way more shots than you'd normally shoot with your warriors. Plus, warriors in Decurions are Relentless and the Ghost Ark is open topped, so there's nothing stopping you from assaulting from a Ghost Ark either.

Now, Judicator Battalions have more than enough reason to get Ghost Arks since they're bringing a Triarch Stalker and more AV 13 is more saturation, or possibly more cover for their Stalker. And, based on this sort of conclusion, then this would possibly be a list where a Monolith could possibly be kind of safe and very nice to use (with Prets, Lychguard, warriors, Immortals being good Eternity Gate targets). With all that mentioned, here's my first try at a Judicator Battalion list: (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/715057.page#9149946)

Spoiler:

Formation: Reclamation Legion - 1090pts

5 Immortals (Tesla) - 85pts
5 Lychguard (Sword and Shield) - 150pts
Overlord (Warscythe, Veil of Darkness) - 125pts
3 Tomb Blades ( 3 Shield Vanes,3 TL Gauss Blaster) - 60pts
10 Necron Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
10 Necron Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
Monolith - 200pts

Formation: Judicator Battalion - 415pts

5 Triarch Praetorians (Rods) - 140pts
5 Triarch Praetorians (Rods) - 140pts
Triarch Stalker (TL Heavy Gauss Cannon) - 135pts

Formation: Royal Court - 345pts

Orikan, the Diviner - 120pts
Overlord (Phase Shifter, Ressurection Orb, Voidreaper) - 160pts
Necron Lord (The Solar Staff) - 65pts


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 18:18:32


Post by: Arlen


 skoffs wrote:

Q: The C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer’s Gaze of Death special
rule occurs in the Shooting phase, but isn’t a shooting attack.
Can it be used in close combat? Can it be used in Overwatch?
A: Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack, so cannot be
used to fire Overwatch. It can, however, be used even if
the C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer is locked in combat,
either against the unit he is locked in combat with
or against another enemy unit within range and line
of sight.


Made me remember the old screaming days with my Vampire Counts in fantasy
But this is actually quite some good stuff for the C'tan, as it is quite a good way to get rid of some pesky invisible space marines that try to lock him in combat.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 20:28:03


Post by: Marshal_Gus


So Wraiths don't suffer an initiative penalty when charging through difficult terrain, but what about the 5 ICs attached to the unit?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 20:35:19


Post by: necr0n


Marshal_Gus wrote:
So Wraiths don't suffer an initiative penalty when charging through difficult terrain, but what about the 5 ICs attached to the unit?


There usually are not 5 IC's attached to Wraiths units. Otherwise, you're slowing down your Wraiths down to Lychguard speed, in which case, you could just go for Lychguard. There's 1 Destroyer Lord usually and he does get Initiative 1 instead of 2.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 21:00:46


Post by: Marshal_Gus


 necr0n wrote:
Marshal_Gus wrote:
So Wraiths don't suffer an initiative penalty when charging through difficult terrain, but what about the 5 ICs attached to the unit?


There usually are not 5 IC's attached to Wraiths units. Otherwise, you're slowing down your Wraiths down to Lychguard speed, in which case, you could just go for Lychguard. There's 1 Destroyer Lord usually and he does get Initiative 1 instead of 2.


Maybe it's just me. As long as my Lords don't force my Wraiths to fight at initiative 1, I'm good.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 22:09:31


Post by: col_impact


Conclave of the Burning One is back. Nothing in the FAQ is enforcing that only the Transcendant is legal. That means all C'tan are legal.

Cool.

>>Oops. That's not correct. Checking the Shield of Baal Exterminatus FAQ and the Transcendent restriction is still there. Darn.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/20 22:28:53


Post by: Freddy Kruger


As a new Necron player, these rule clarifications are very helpful, as I struggled to understand some of the wording in the codex.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 01:57:42


Post by: skoffs


col_impact wrote:
Conclave of the Burning One is back. Nothing in the FAQ is enforcing that only the Transcendant is legal. That means all C'tan are legal.

Cool.

>>Oops. That's not correct. Checking the Shield of Baal Exterminatus FAQ and the Transcendent restriction is still there. Darn.

Aww, dammit!
Still unusable, then.
:/


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 01:59:39


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


It isn't unusable it just isn't good. Unfortunately the best artifact for that is part of that supplement.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 02:03:52


Post by: skoffs


 necr0n wrote:
I'd say someone needs to take a closer look to NightScythes as Triach Preatorians' rides.

I haven't checked, was there a FAQ for the Flyer supplement? (and if so, was there anything about Night Scythes having Skyfire?)

Also, in that list you posted, you really should put something else on that RC Overlord with the Void Reaper. Phase Shifter at bare minimum.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 03:48:29


Post by: Oberron


So what are the options vs a genestealer cult army? Played one for the first time and all the return to the shadows and charging from 3 inches away is pretty nuts. I did goof by having my lychguard+obyron+orikan and a unit of scarabs in the same assault. My opponent focuses on the scarabs to cause enough wounds to force my lychguard to run away and were ran down.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 05:22:34


Post by: skoffs


Wraiths and Tomb Blades.
Wraiths and Tomb Blades solve many problems.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 06:11:38


Post by: Drasius


Oberron wrote:
So what are the options vs a genestealer cult army? Played one for the first time and all the return to the shadows and charging from 3 inches away is pretty nuts. I did goof by having my lychguard+obyron+orikan and a unit of scarabs in the same assault. My opponent focuses on the scarabs to cause enough wounds to force my lychguard to run away and were ran down.


Deploy so that stuff is 6" or so from other stuff, put your fighty stuff/chaff at the front at max coherency. They can't deploy within 3" of a unit, so having 2 units 6" (or 7") apart means that they're deploying at the front of your forces. Having chaff like scarabs or fighty things like Wraiths out the front means that they either charge stuff you don't care about (scarabs), win and then get shot to death, or charge stuff that they're not going to hurt (wraiths), and either flee and get shot or stick around and get ground down. Tomb blades as mentioned will also do unspeakable things to large portions of the GSC army. Flayed ones of all things also make for a great chaff/screen/counter assault army, especially if you park them in terrain. A Triarch Stalker can also make a handy toy since you can tie down lots of things that can't really hurt AV13 and GSC is deathly allergic to heavy flamers, though you probably just want more tomb blades instead unless you're already fielding the judicator battalion in a TAC list.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 09:51:28


Post by: col_impact


Oberron wrote:
So what are the options vs a genestealer cult army? Played one for the first time and all the return to the shadows and charging from 3 inches away is pretty nuts. I did goof by having my lychguard+obyron+orikan and a unit of scarabs in the same assault. My opponent focuses on the scarabs to cause enough wounds to force my lychguard to run away and were ran down.


You should adjust your list so that the Lychstar is fearless (ie getting Zealot from Zandrekh, etc.).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 13:06:36


Post by: skoffs


Or, you know, replace them with Wraiths?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 15:26:46


Post by: necr0n


 skoffs wrote:
 necr0n wrote:
I'd say someone needs to take a closer look to NightScythes as Triach Preatorians' rides.

I haven't checked, was there a FAQ for the Flyer supplement? (and if so, was there anything about Night Scythes having Skyfire?)

No, you're right. They're probably not that usefull if DftS is being used. Still worth a game or two?

Also, in that list you posted, you really should put something else on that RC Overlord with the Void Reaper. Phase Shifter at bare minimum.


I don't know. I've 4 characters in the same squad to take challenges. I've bodyguards all arround to tank shots. I might swap the Phase Shifter from the VoD OL to the Voidreaper OL but it wouldn't make too much difference.

 skoffs wrote:
Or, you know, replace them with Wraiths?


Or you know, don't multi-assault your deathstar with some lame Scarabs? How did you manage that..?



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 16:00:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Flayed Ones can take wounds very well for the points and ultimately have the hard counter stats to kill them.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 16:19:59


Post by: skoffs


 necr0n wrote:
Also, in that list you posted, you really should put something else on that RC Overlord with the Void Reaper. Phase Shifter at bare minimum.

I don't know. I've 4 characters in the same squad to take challenges. I've bodyguards all arround to tank shots. I might swap the Phase Shifter from the VoD OL to the Voidreaper OL but it wouldn't make too much difference.

If you're going to give a character a nice piece of wargear like the VR, it really tends to pay off to keep him protected so you can get the most use out of it as possible.
Instead, why don't you give your Warlord with all the other equipment the VR and have the naked RC OL carry the Veil? (it IS a one use only item, after all)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/21 22:16:30


Post by: Oberron


In short with the lychguard and scarabs. I wasn't thinking right and thought that the wounds would only effect the scarabs and wounds from lychguard would only effect lychguard. Super noob mistake but I haven't played let alone picked up my rule book in 5+ months


Also I don't own wraiths. Was never a fan of them even though I know how good they are.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 08:29:15


Post by: skoffs


Okay, I want to hear honest opinions:
Can the Obelisk be competitive now, with the fixes to its guns?
If so, what are its uses?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 08:48:54


Post by: wuestenfux


Tier units/models: Tier may change if equipped differently.

Top tier:
- Wraiths
- Warriors
- Tomb Blades
- Destroyers

Mid tier:
- Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Flayed Ones
- Immortals
- Praetorians
- Night Scythe
- Ghostark

Bottom tier:
- Deathmarks
- Lynchguard
- C'tans
- all other vehicles


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 09:02:39


Post by: necr0n


 wuestenfux wrote:
Tier units/models: Tier may change if equipped differently.

Top tier:
- Wraiths
- Warriors
- Tomb Blades
- Destroyers

Mid tier:
- Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Flayed Ones
- Immortals
- Praetorians
- Night Scythe
- Ghostark

Bottom tier:
- Deathmarks
- Lynchguard
- C'tans
- all other vehicles


How are warriors top tier and Deathmarks and Lychguard are bottom tier? Every list that has ever done well in competitive play either included Lychguard or Deathmarks. Also, how do you have Ghost Arks in the same level as Night Scythes? I really don't get how Immortals are also mid tier, they're probably one of the worst units in the codex, all they do is be a tax for RL. It's good to have personal opinions (like how I like the Monolith too much), but spreading such tiers without taking any of the successful lists into account is kind of an overstatement.

I'd say top tier is: Deathmarks, Lychguard, Wraiths, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Destroyer Lords

Mid tier is: Prets, Flayed Ones, Ghost Arks, Overlords, Zahndrekh, Orikan

Bot tier is: Vehicles, C'tans, Warriors, Immortals, Scarabs, Spyders, most named HQs, Crypteks

But, then it's not very indicative, because of what difference it makes when you field those models in formations. For example, Destroyers outside the Destroyer Cult are quite bad. Triarch Stalkers can't be judged alone because they are part of a good formation.

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, I want to hear honest opinions:
Can the Obelisk be competitive now, with the fixes to its guns?
If so, what are its uses?


I do believe so. Problem still being that it's too vulnerable for its point cost, but it has the potential. The Living Tomb formation (hey what can I say, I'm a monolith fan) looks very good. Here is LVO's relevant list: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Jon-Camacho-7th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

I guess 16 Deathmarks, all of the str7 shots from the Obelisk and the Prets were quite a lot of shooting for Eldar and TAU MC's and GC's. This list looks like a good answer to MC/GC spam which is probably what you are going to face in GT environment.

Also, the Obelisk should be pretty good at killing all the armor in Battle Companies. It's pretty effective at killing rhinos.

I really don't know if it would be effective in other lists besides the Pret/Deathmarks combo. That's up for testing and I don't own one Obelisk (although, I'd love to have one, it looks great). Personally, I feel like maybe you could save some points here and there and play it together with a Destroyer Cult.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 09:16:09


Post by: skoffs


You're free to post your own personal ranking of the codex as well.
(I'm trying to work my own up atm)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 09:30:35


Post by: sieGermans


 skoffs wrote:
Okay, I want to hear honest opinions:
Can the Obelisk be competitive now, with the fixes to its guns?
If so, what are its uses?


Outside of Living Tomb:

Lack of Twin Linked on its Tesla Spheres results in fewer hits on models than Annihilation Barges / Night Scythes per sphere.

With this change allowing up to three focused spheres per target, that evaluation changes, but not perfectly. Recall that these are AP- hits, allowing in many instances for units to shrug off 1/2 to 2/3 of the wounds. Moreover, this has not necessarily increased its shooting, merely allowed focusing it on the preferred target.

In contrast, and for similar point value (300) you can bring alternative fire support units from our Codex with various AP suitable to the task.


Enabling the Living Tomb:

The Tomb formation is a fun, versatile formation that allows several fun trick plays. Although fielded in a recent tournament, I don't expect this formation to be incredibly Competitive in that context. 700 points is quite a bit of investment at 1850. The combos, however, are very entertaining!


Overall:

Cool looking model with a high point cost with shooting that will frequently be most effective against low armour/cover targets--making it rarely able to recoup its point cost directly.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 10:03:15


Post by: torblind


There was already a list apparently doing well with the Living tomb formation that seemed ok, here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/04/05/40k-list-tech-crons-and-controversy/

I guess its challenge is that 300 points spent on infantry with RP will be much more resilient. Against something with alpha-striking melta, or fast moving armorbane close combat units its likely to die fast.

Depending on who you play against, its ability to thunderblitz and control traffic have some value too. Especially against hordes that cannot easily hurt its AV14. Blocking off sections of the board, physically, to control where the hordes flow through, allowed me to control which of my units gets to locked down. I can now help direct enemies towards my lychguard instead of running them around, trying to catch up. or warriors or immortals, allowing me to keep my faster wraiths, scarabs or praetorians to remain free to self decide where they go.

This has worked extremely well for me in friendly less competitive settings, but its worthwhile to keep in mind.

Putting the obelisk in a central position, if its safe enough, allows its tesla spheres to add supporting fire where needed, and 5 or 10 tesla S7 shots will be a serious threat to most enemy units, ie help rapidfire warriors finish off a terminator or 2, last 1-2 wounds on an MC or last 1-2 HP on a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote:

[...]With this change allowing up to three focused spheres per target, that evaluation changes[...]


surely 180 degrees would allow only 2 spheres maximum per target?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 10:06:15


Post by: skoffs


So as it stands, looks like the best Tesla we have at our disposal would be Judicator Night Scythes.
On the plus side, everything in that formation is pretty decent!
On the downside, it's already pretty expensive, so adding NSs into the mix is going to jack the cost up considerably.

Still surprised the Obelisk, what is supposed to be an anti-air weapon, does not have an option for Skyfire.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 10:16:22


Post by: torblind


Well the NS suffers (and benefits) from being a flier, with guns pointing in only one direction and a somewhat forced route to fly, the obelisk has the advantage of having one sphere pointing to each corner of the board at all times.

depending on what you are up against, one will be better than the other


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 10:47:55


Post by: col_impact


It only makes sense to rank individual units into tiers if you are running a CAD.

If you are running a Decurion, then you should be ranking formations instead of units in terms of top-tier, mid-tier, and bottom-tier. The Reclamation Legion itself does not need to be ranked since its a tax. However any add-ons to the min Reclamation Legion should be ranked.

Top tier
Harvest
D. Cult
Additional Tomb Blades to the Reclamation Legion

Mid-tier
Royal Court
Judicator Battalion
Deathmarks

Bottom/Mid-tier
Flayed Ones
Conclave of the Burning One (weak since FAQ)
Retribution Phalanx (weak since FAQ)
Living Tomb
Additional Warriors or Immortals to the Reclamation Legion
Ghost Arks added to Warriors
NS added to Reclamation Legion or Judicator

Bottom tier
Annihilation Nexus
Deathbringer Flight




Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 12:50:17


Post by: sieGermans


torblind wrote:
sieGermans wrote:

[...]With this change allowing up to three focused spheres per target, that evaluation changes[...]


surely 180 degrees would allow only 2 spheres maximum per target?


Depend s on the length of the target unit. With a corner pointed directly at a unit's center, if the unit has been spread out more than 8 inches, strict geometry allows for 3 spheres.

Realistic examples mostly only include:
At 1 inch coherency with 1 inch bases (e.g., marines), that would be 5 models in a line.
A facing IK
A perpendicular Landraider

I expect the usual scenario to only comprise 2 spheres hitting a single unit, but the strict maximum is 3 in a non-rare number of circumstances.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
It only makes sense to rank individual units into tiers if you are running a CAD.

If you are running a Decurion, then you should be ranking formations instead of units in terms of top-tier, mid-tier, and bottom-tier. The Reclamation Legion itself does not need to be ranked since its a tax. However any add-ons to the min Reclamation Legion should be ranked.

Top tier
Harvest
D. Cult
Additional Tomb Blades to the Reclamation Legion

Mid-tier
Royal Court
Judicator Battalion
Deathmarks

Bottom/Mid-tier
Flayed Ones
Conclave of the Burning One (weak since FAQ)
Retribution Phalanx (weak since FAQ)
Living Tomb
Additional Warriors or Immortals to the Reclamation Legion
Ghost Arks added to Warriors
NS added to Reclamation Legion or Judicator

Bottom tier
Annihilation Nexus
Deathbringer Flight




This feels pretty accurate based on my experience.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 13:02:36


Post by: skoffs


I guess next would be the ranking of combo?

I'm a particular fan of a Destroyer Lord attached to Deathmarks (new D&D squad), but I know it doesn't hold a candle to an Orikan-star... though which variation would be higher rated (Wraith or S&S Lych), I do not know.

And then there's Sentry-star.
And Wraith-wing.
And Alpha-strike-Obyron and friends.
Etc.

So many options!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 13:06:47


Post by: Neophyte2012


col_impact wrote:
It only makes sense to rank individual units into tiers if you are running a CAD.

If you are running a Decurion, then you should be ranking formations instead of units in terms of top-tier, mid-tier, and bottom-tier. The Reclamation Legion itself does not need to be ranked since its a tax. However any add-ons to the min Reclamation Legion should be ranked.

Top tier
Harvest
D. Cult
Additional Tomb Blades to the Reclamation Legion

Mid-tier
Royal Court
Judicator Battalion
Deathmarks

Bottom/Mid-tier
Flayed Ones
Conclave of the Burning One (weak since FAQ)
Retribution Phalanx (weak since FAQ)
Living Tomb
Additional Warriors or Immortals to the Reclamation Legion
Ghost Arks added to Warriors
NS added to Reclamation Legion or Judicator

Bottom tier
Annihilation Nexus
Deathbringer Flight




Suggest consider Deathbringer Flight paired up with the Nightbringer C'tan, could be no bad.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 13:34:57


Post by: sieGermans


It's only -1 Ld total, right?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 14:02:37


Post by: Akar


Where do we stand with Warriors in the Ghost Arks benefiting from Triarch Stalkers? I'm asking for the actual rule, as I'm aware most casual gamers are allowing it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 15:53:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Anyone listing Flayed Ones near the bottom tier haven't had the pleasure of running into Genestealer Cults yet.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 16:29:48


Post by: Akar


They're still listing Wraiths as Top Tier.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 16:33:33


Post by: skoffs


 Akar wrote:
They're still listing Wraiths as Top Tier.

That's because they are.
What you get for the points you pay is very efficient. Anything along those lines tends to be regarded as "top tier".


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 18:13:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 skoffs wrote:
 Akar wrote:
They're still listing Wraiths as Top Tier.

That's because they are.
What you get for the points you pay is very efficient. Anything along those lines tends to be regarded as "top tier".

This is maybe the first time I've seen someone proclaim that they aren't top tier.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 19:22:47


Post by: Akar


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is maybe the first time I've seen someone proclaim that they aren't top tier.
I feel the same way, but on the other end of the opinion scale. When were they ever top tier?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 20:50:28


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Since the 5th ed codex.
T5 2W units with S6 Rending and 3+ invuls are really good.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/22 22:10:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Akar wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is maybe the first time I've seen someone proclaim that they aren't top tier.
I feel the same way, but on the other end of the opinion scale. When were they ever top tier?

Since the new codex came out. Even in 5th they were still top tier.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 00:35:19


Post by: skoffs


This codex solidified their top tier status by giving them access to RP and/or Shred as well.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 02:56:59


Post by: Akar


If you're not going to state why they're top tier then it's not going to help. They can't even be in a top tier position if you can't even say why they belong there. Especially when they've never been in that position. The current Dex gave them some much needed attention, but that's not any kind of answer to the question now is it? They needed the buff to be fieldable, and they only barely make the cut.

Let's look at Wraiths. Keep in mind these are my opinions, based on my experiences since they showed up the first time. I expect some disagreement and that's fine, this is a tactics thread. I'm fully aware of what their stats are, what they're capable of, and I'm not questioning what makes them good. I am questioning what you guys think makes them Top Tier? Not one soul has been able to give me an answer. My experience has shown me that there isn't anything they do, that can't be done better by the other options.

- With the exception of maybe the Ctan and Spyders (which have other purposes), the Wraiths are the most expensive per model out of the available options. Praetorians and Lychguard are a few points more per wound, but that gap narrows as units get larger, or when Wraiths waste points on Coils, and I'll come back to this.

- T5/2W/3+. Against the majority of non MEQ stuff, which is the majority of weapons out there, this is all Wraiths are. There seems to be a big deal made about the Invul, but that's only great against anti-MEQ stuff. My Plague Marine friend laughs at why people think that the Invul is great, as they are pretty easily dealt with by conventional weapons. Lychguard and Praetorians are also T5, have a 3+ save and come with RP. Flayed Ones get you 3W per Wraith, aren't as resilient but again, come with RP. Scarabs will give you twice the number of wounds, but I'll admit this is tricky with how common S7 is right now. For those that count Wounds, Toughness, and Saves, Wraiths aren't the Top Tier choice out of the available options.

- Fearless/Jump. Praetorians and Scarabs have the same move and are Fearless. Wraithflight is only an advantage here in that rare situation where you put yourself into a position to allow your opponent to get something in range that needs to be dealt with that the other units can't get to. Flayed Ones offset their move with Infiltrate, and played aggressively, should hit the enemy lines the same time as the Wraiths. Lychguard and Flayed Ones have enough damage output that LD10 is more than enough to keep them in a fight. With so many options available in the Dex to get Fearless, or abuse the LD10, Wraiths don't Top Tier here either.

- Attacks. This seems to be the big sticking point for me as people try to tell me this is a big selling point. At 3A per model, they have the lowest wound count potential of the options. Rending is nice, but with so few attacks it's not enough to be consistently reliable. Praetorians are the only ones that shoot, which alone puts the equal to Wraiths attacks per model, which is double the number of attacks per wound. Flayed Ones put out 4 Attacks per wound with Shred, with T8 being the only advantage that Wraiths have on them as far as Attacks are concerned, and only then if you're not taking enough other Necrons goodness to deal with T8. (Which I'm seeing is pretty common on Wraith dependent lists). Scarabs are the same Attacks per model, but fewer per wound. They can wound anything the Wraiths can, and still do fine against Armor. With other units providing more Attacks, or more Efficient Attacks than Wraiths, they don't Top Tier here by a long shot.

** I stand by what I said when I say that Whip Coils are a waste. The recent FAQ reverted Whip Coils back to being useful, but they dont increase the number of attacks. So you pay a small number of point to insure those attacks, but this also makes the cost of Praetorians/Lychguard a more attractive option.

- Tarpit. As a standalone unit, this is where Wraiths shine. Especially in low model count CAD based lists. In more average lists, not including Decurion, they don't have RP and Cron players will eventually find a balance where the damage output of the army as a whole, combined with RP to not need to rely on Tarpit tactics. There is one exception to this, but I'll get to that at the end. Regardless, Wraiths might Top Tier here, but as soon as a Cron player gets a handle on what the army does, or moves into a Decurion, they lose the seat here to other options, including non assault options.

- "Jack of all Trades, Master of None". The combination of having strengths is each of these categories combines to make their cost sufficient enough add to lists. This makes them a great learning tool for newer players to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of the army. Particularly those who don't know which of the above units to fill the role that they are taking Wraiths for. Even I recommend them at this stage for quite a few players while they decide which direction they want to take their list, what their Meta is, and how Wraiths are being used to know which of the other units to replace them. In order to 'solidify' there position as Top Tier, they'd have to remain the best option or be irreplaceable. Which can happen on certain lists, but certainly not as a broad categorization.

- Harvests/Decurion. Harvest do grant additional options to Wraiths, which are great but they are also options that already exist on other units. Now, I don't agree with the TAX mentality, but I'll point out something that I find humorous. Those that take a Harvest, especially a Double, run the minimum Scarabs with no expectation of them doing much. The Spyder is required to give the bonus, which again, already exists on units that aren't dependent on its range or even on the board. Adding those points, and picking the bonus does nothing to change those 3 attacks per model, just that they get them. When you divvy up the cost of the tax among the Wraiths, you end up making the Praetorians, Flayed Ones, and even Lychguard MORE attractive options. So in the end, the Wraiths fail to Top Tier here.

-----

So where do they Top Tier? "Competetive" play is usually the best answer that someone gives as if that is supposed to change anything above. I'm going to try to keep my rant on what a joke "Competetive" play has become to a minimum, but it is a valid place where Wraiths Top Tier and for good reason. I mainly play Maelstrom missions with none of that Discard crap that is common, or I play Eternal War missions for smaller games. I occasionally play an ITC scenario when asked, and it's usually with one of the lists found online and not my own.

These events alter the Scenarios, change the mission objectives, don't play Maelstrom, include FAQs to restrict certain rules, limit the number of times a formation can be taken, reward Deathstars, and have still refused to allow Unbound. In an environment like this, the shift on which units become useful extend beyond the reasons listed above, and threats to Wraiths are reduced on non existent. Wraiths Top Tier here because they do things that aren't normally required in Maelstrom/EW missions, where threats to them are reduced, and taking units that outperform them don't score the points needed to win.

So Wraiths are Top Tier, in an environment where they thrive, by players who prefer to play by a group of rules and a set of scenarios, where they feel the game is playable. A group, that according to the survey not too long ago, shows that they are the minority of the community as a whole. I deal with this a lot where I currently live, and run into these "Competetive" players often. When they step up, and start playing the missions, especially Maelstrom, the Wraiths simply don't hold up. It's too easy to either deal with them, ignore them, or throw something at them to eat through until it's too late to have an impact on the game.

So yeah, I have NO IDEA why Wraiths are considered Top Tier.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 04:38:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I can't wait to get to a computer and go point by point why you're stupidly wrong.

Unless someone else does it first.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 07:59:03


Post by: skoffs


Oi, just remember to keep it civil.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 08:20:24


Post by: col_impact


Wraiths are the best tarpitters in all of 40k and they are the perfect tactical counterpart to Necron's other top-tier units: Tomb Blades and Destroyers.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 13:41:37


Post by: Akar


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can't wait to get to a computer and go point by point why you're stupidly wrong.

Challenge Accepted! If it will show me something that I haven't been told, that is practical enough to take to a game and see a difference, then I welcome the attempt! Anything is better than the 'Because they are!' response.
col_impact wrote:
Wraiths are the best tarpitters in all of 40k and they are the perfect tactical counterpart to Necron's other top-tier units: Tomb Blades and Destroyers.

When comparing Tarpit units to other Tarpit units based purely off their unit entry, then I have no disagreement with the first part of this statement. As players start paying points for combos however, several units in the game become just as effective if not more effective than Wraiths. In our own Codex, a Fearless Zahndrekh leading a Core Decurion unit of 20 Warriors has been a better use of points when needing a Tarpit. As opposed to Wraiths who are dependent on the Spyder being around, meeting up with the unit they need to Tarpit, and avoiding everything that could stop them from getting to that unit. Even Tomb Blades in a Decurion have worked as a late game Tarpit in a pinch.

It rests entirely on requiring or expecting the need for a Tarpit unit. Because a Tarpit tactic isn't needed in every Necron list, there is no need for them to be a Top Tier units, which is what we're discussing. I don't mean to give the impression that they're bad. They're a great unit, and work well in quite a few lists. When they are outperformed in specific areas by the other units in our dex, then taking them for that specific purpose keeps them a mid-tier choice.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that Destroyers are Top Tier?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/23 17:17:51


Post by: Requizen


col_impact wrote:
Wraiths are the best tarpitters in all of 40k



That's a really strange way to spell Flesh Hounds of Khorne.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 01:29:59


Post by: col_impact


Akar,

in your opinion what are the three units that define the Necron top tier?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 02:44:31


Post by: Akar


col_impact wrote:
Akar,
in your opinion what are the three units that define the Necron top tier?
Honestly, it's hard to tell what the criteria is. Is it cost efficiency? Performance? Things that should be an Auto Include? Is it based on just their entry, it's role in a formation, or interaction with other units? Do we base it off of its intended use or format? It's hard to say. A Top Tier unit for me would have to be units that are on a list, and would be really difficult to cut out.

I'm happy with my current list that I haven't really needed to put them into tiers. I gave it some thought, so here is my list on how I would rank them, and why.

Top Tier
- Warriors. THE backbone of the Necron army, and one of the most efficient and effective models in the game. For a mere 13pts, you get an I2 Space Marine Scout that has improved FnP, and a weapon that can't be ignored by anything in the game. Anyone who started when they were our only Troop choice knows that they have been and are still the best unit in our codex. No other unit in our codex has as many combo options as these guys. We have a Dedicated Transport BUILT for them. They make a really good case for that transport cap on Nightscyhes. No other unit benefits more from Buffs, like Stalkers, Destroyer Lords, Szeras, or the variety of WL traits that we have extreme control over with Zahndrekh. No other unit will increase the value of having a Cryptek in there with or without a Chrono. The Reclamation Legion is built to really favor them, even as a standalone. The Retribution Phalanx is pretty lethal because of these guys.

- Tomb Blades. With the decline of Immortals with each Codex, these guys picked up the mantle and elevated it. The T5, 3+ 2 shots are not only back, but are faster, cheaper, and more lethal with access to 'Ignore Cover'. They filled the void left by Classic Destroyers by being one of the few units than can threaten units over 30" away, and with a Blast option, can match the insane number of hits that Classic Destroyers used to put out. Works well in large or small unit sizes to meet any players style. The amount of freedom the get from being run in a Rec. Legion, and Decurion comes close to rivaling what Warriors get out. These guys really should be on most lists, Decurion or not.

- Zahndrekh. An Overlord kitted out to get close to what he does costs more. The 2+/4i alone is worth the cost. Starting out with Zealot, then having the tactical flexibility to adapt to virtually any situation outweighs anything that his lack of a Warscythe brings. The ability to copy a handful of USRs is just sprinkles on this Frosted Cupcake of goodness. He can fill the Overlord requirement in the Rec Legion, but is an excellent choice for a CAD as well. While he can be dropped if needed, there are games where I have missed having him.

** Noteworthy Mention. Szeras and Orikan are both Top Tier worthy. The requirements to non CAD lists is really the only thing holding either of these guys back from being Top Tier.

Mid Tier
- This is the highest Wraiths go for me, and really only when taken outside of a Harvest. They are really great for new players who play against people that already know their army. Once you get a handle on what Necrons are good at, they swing pretty fast to being a backup unit. Since the builds on Necron shooting can vary greatly between players, it takes a bit longer to figure out which Assault units to actually take, so these guys retain their usefulness longer than trying to learn how Necrons work without them. After that, though, the above statement apply, and you can find better performing units to do the job. Even in lists where I do have them, they're usually the first to get cut if I need to shave points.

- Immortals/Destoyers. While these are both VERY good units, they're a bit more specialized in their performance and what their role should are in a list. They suffer from the same 30" restriction on their shooting as the Warriors do, and if you're running Warriors, that kill zone can get crowded. Destoyers have the advantage of ensuring kills, but the limit on how much they'd can kill is easier to overcome than players realize. The Assault move is handy, but takes some skill to get use done to. Gauss Immortals are really effective at being a threat to non MEQ armies as the Destroyers are, with a NS option making up for lost ground. I've grown to love my Tesla Immortals now more than before. This is because both Immortals and Destroyers are really dependent on what they are supporting. As mainstay units, they remain powerful, but one of the weaker options wen compared to the other combinations we have available. This is why they won't be Top Tier.

- Flayed Ones, Praetorians, Scarabs. Pretty much the same as Immortals/Destroyers. They're a bit more specialized, and dependent on what's they are supporting, and what they're being used for. Unlike Wraiths, these units will have harder counters which should only be an issue while you narrow it down to dealing with those threats through other means.

Low Tier
- Deathmarks. Again, not a bad unit but one that I think chose to eat as much nerf bat as it could. They perform well when certain conditions are met. Does the enemy have anything in Deep Strike that's going to hurt? Is there anything that he is bringing that can't really be dealt with by the rest of your list? Is their target even going to be on the board? Is your opponent going first? Admittedly, my experience is limited, as I proxied them when trying to decide if I wanted to get them. Didn't take any of my opponents to just say 'Go first' and watch them arrive on Turn 2 with limited options to kill.

- Harvests. Mainly just putting it here because of the LENGTHS that players will go to just to get it. When you're trying to squeeze them in at really low point games, you're really just putting the cart in front of the horse, and not taking advantage of the real strengths of the Army. The other reason I place harvests here is the Scarab Tax mentality. A harvest only gets better when you use the Scarabs to their strengths, and not just some place n forget unit.

- Lychguard. While it is one of the units I have never fielded, their limited mobility, lack of any special deployment, and investment and playstyle to make them a threat keep them here for me. Like the above, they're not bad and can be quite powerful. In light of all the other options, I'll probably never use them.

- Destroyer Lords/ CCBs. These guys are so odd that it's impossible to place them somewhere or use them to where they can't really use their full abilities. I.e., When you do one thing with them, they aren't really using something else you paid for them to do. They're not incredibly difficult to deal with. Its also easier to spend their points on something that is more worthwhile.

** Everything else not listed is because I have limited experience, haven't ever fielded them, or just really don't fit my playstyle. I'd put all of them mid tier, since we don't really have bad units. All of the Vehicles and the CTan are mid tier. They just require a specialized list to perform really well, and often times those lists come at the cost of Top Tier units.

These are my opinions, so I'm sure most will disagree. That's fine, I'm just trying offer my reasons behind my decisions since they vary from the mainstream. If new players read this thread, it helps if they're informed about why they should be spending money. The number of players I run into that put stuff down, based on what they read online, is disheartening to me as a hobbyist. They have no idea why a unit is good, and because they never took the time to ask, they don't know what to do when those units don't do what they thought it would.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 03:43:11


Post by: col_impact


Akar,

can you adjust your tiers so HQ are not included? I should have been clearer. I meant the top 3 units, not including HQ.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 04:10:01


Post by: Akar


Having internet issues with the storm so didn't see your comment. Going to leave the HQs there, but no, I don't really have a 3rd Top Tier unit. Not because there isn't one, but because our Dex is really good enough that it depends on what you're bringing.

Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit.
Ghost Ark Warriors move Destroyers and Scarabs up a bit.
Immortal based lists move Praetorians and Wraiths up a bit.

It's part of what makes Crons a balanced codex, and makes it difficult to really put stuff into Tiers. Even Deathmarks, Harvests, and Lychguard move up depending on outside factors like Local Meta, Casual/Tournament play, storyline/campaign, etc. I've tried to Tier the units out with all of these in mind.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 04:24:30


Post by: Klowny


Personally, my D/Lord is usually the MVP in my games. He needs to be in either a CC unit or a deathstar, but conveying his PE buff to the group is disgusting. Additionally being T6 and kitted out right he is very hard to kill. Mine has stood up against a purestrain genestealer, 2 lictors and a Deathleaper for 2 rounds with 2 wounds left and chopped them all to pieces.

Granted on his own he is a fire magnet, and is expensive to kit out to fight weight, but his stats, wargear and buffs make him lethal when you add him to other units.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 08:08:37


Post by: col_impact


Akar,

I agree with you that Tomb Blades are top-tier. In fact, they are quite possibly the best unit in the entire Necron codex. Tomb Blades have always been number one or number two for me.

However, your placing of Warriors as top-tier seems very off since they are basically a CAD tax or a Reclamation Legion tax . They certainly are solid compared to other troop choices in other codexes, but not compared to other units in the Necron codex.

Most players view Warriors as little more than a tax. A Silver Tide list can do okay in tournament formats but is not great.

A list built entirely of Harvests is certainly more formidable than a list built entirely of Warriors.

In fact the ITC has decided to restrict the number of Harvests in their tournaments to no more than 2 in order to be fair to the other players. There is no restriction on the number of Warrior units.


Do you have any data or anything objective to back up your claim that Warriors are top-tier? My claim that Harvests are top-tier can be backed up by looking at winning Necron lists across a variety of tournament formats. And, if you look at the same Necron lists you will find that they play the minimum allowed number of Warriors.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 12:50:21


Post by: Anpu-adom


 Akar wrote:
Having internet issues with the storm so didn't see your comment. Going to leave the HQs there, but no, I don't really have a 3rd Top Tier unit. Not because there isn't one, but because our Dex is really good enough that it depends on what you're bringing.

Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit.
Ghost Ark Warriors move Destroyers and Scarabs up a bit.
Immortal based lists move Praetorians and Wraiths up a bit.

It's part of what makes Crons a balanced codex, and makes it difficult to really put stuff into Tiers. Even Deathmarks, Harvests, and Lychguard move up depending on outside factors like Local Meta, Casual/Tournament play, storyline/campaign, etc. I've tried to Tier the units out with all of these in mind.


Well said, Akar. It's not like we couldn't use a few more formations, re-written rules for C'Tan, and a buff to deepstriking Monoliths, but our dex is well written.
Warriors are the backbone... and I'd love to see armies with more of them on the table. They aren't a tax unit, but they aren't flashy either.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 15:08:08


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


col_impact wrote:
Akar,

I agree with you that Tomb Blades are top-tier. In fact, they are quite possibly the best unit in the entire Necron codex. Tomb Blades have always been number one or number two for me.

However, your placing of Warriors as top-tier seems very off since they are basically a CAD tax or a Reclamation Legion tax . They certainly are solid compared to other troop choices in other codexes, but not compared to other units in the Necron codex.

Most players view Warriors as little more than a tax. A Silver Tide list can do okay in tournament formats but is not great.

A list built entirely of Harvests is certainly more formidable than a list built entirely of Warriors.

In fact the ITC has decided to restrict the number of Harvests in their tournaments to no more than 2 in order to be fair to the other players. There is no restriction on the number of Warrior units.


Do you have any data or anything objective to back up your claim that Warriors are top-tier? My claim that Harvests are top-tier can be backed up by looking at winning Necron lists across a variety of tournament formats. And, if you look at the same Necron lists you will find that they play the minimum allowed number of Warriors.


He placed Illuminor as top tier so I don't know if it is a troll or not.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 15:10:42


Post by: Requizen


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He placed Illuminor as top tier so I don't know if it is a troll or not.


If you're running a CAD with lines of troops, Szeras is the best character you can choose.

On the other hand, those types of armies don't win games.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/24 23:27:21


Post by: necr0n


 Akar wrote:
If you're not going to state why they're top tier then it's not going to help. They can't even be in a top tier position if you can't even say why they belong there. Especially when they've never been in that position. The current Dex gave them some much needed attention, but that's not any kind of answer to the question now is it? They needed the buff to be fieldable, and they only barely make the cut.

They've been competitive ever since the 5th edition Matt Ward codex. Very fast, durable and solving a lot of problems Necrons could not solve otherwise. (By either scaring people, eating tons of bullets or tarpitting, even killing stuff). Back then, everyone played single CAD wether you liked it or not, with no Allies and no weird stuff. All the competitive lists ever since that codex went out almost included wraiths. They were not "bearly fieldable". They were a Necron staple in any list and the very well known "wraithwing" with 18 Wraiths was a list you'd meet at almost every flgs (It was the army of the month for many consecutive months).(Although, I'm not claiming it was actually a top list, just that everyone and his dog played it and it was considered cheese). Then, came 6th edition and Balance and list-building went all in very different directions. Allies and flyers were introduced and Necron flyers were possibly the best. Arguably, not many people stuck to wraiths, when you could field as many flyers as possible (+ barges) and shoot more, but that did not mean they were "bearly fieldable", merely they were outshined by the imbalanced flyer-heavy meta, favoring any tesla in the codex over everything else. Now, in 7th edition they're brought back to life BOTH because tesla is nerfed AND because they got buffed. But, mostly, because now in 7th edition just about every army has something new and crazy, some titan, superheavy, invisible, focused shooting, big pew, shiny special unit. That unit is problem for Necrons. We lack Str D, we lack stomps, we lack special psychic powers or psychic cancell/defence. We lack any good shooting choices (How on earth do you plan to shoot a Wraithknight, Knight or Stormsurge with Necron shooting?) to deal with the things people field. So, our answer to everything is an all rounder very fast, terrain-ignoring, scoring, fearless, tough to kill tarpitter. Is that really a surprise?


Let's look at Wraiths. Keep in mind these are my opinions, based on my experiences since they showed up the first time. I expect some disagreement and that's fine, this is a tactics thread. I'm fully aware of what their stats are, what they're capable of, and I'm not questioning what makes them good. I am questioning what you guys think makes them Top Tier? Not one soul has been able to give me an answer. My experience has shown me that there isn't anything they do, that can't be done better by the other options.

If the 7th edition has taught me one thing, is that every time you want to play a game of 40k, you're going to either meet Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Knights, invisible deathstars, Grav Deathstars, Ridiculous cover saves, amazing saves and rerolls, big guns and whatnot.We're not playing versus Rhinos and Marines anymore. Wraiths are the only unit that provides somewhat of an answer to quite some of those threats. Beasts with 12" movement and fleet that ignore terrain are amazingly easy to navigate on enemy stormsurges. The ammount of shooting that they will draw because of that fact and the shift away from the attention from the rest of your army is priceless. Because, point for point they are VERY survivable compared to just about anything. They're only instadying to Str10 and StrD. In the Canoptek Harvest Formation that most use them, they will also get the RP roll on the first round at least for a ridiculous 3++ 5T 2W, 4+++ 40 point model. And the thing is, that most people will shoot them anyway. You can't imagine just how many times a 40k game was played in 7th edition with a TAU played wasting an entire round of shooting on a unit of Wraiths only to have them survive and assault/tarpit next turn.

Expensive as feth bike deathstar with ridiculous cover saves, possible grav abuse and lots of psychic? Wraiths are absolutely the finest and only answer our codex can bring in any context or shape or form. (not to mention how funny grav looks when it shoots wraiths)


- With the exception of maybe the Ctan and Spyders (which have other purposes), the Wraiths are the most expensive per model out of the available options. Praetorians and Lychguard are a few points more per wound, but that gap narrows as units get larger, or when Wraiths waste points on Coils, and I'll come back to this.

And they all do have their merits. I like both Lychguard and Preatorians and use them all the time, but they have different roles from the Wraiths. They serve different purposes, different goals and should mostly have different targets too. They fill different holes in Necron lists.

Whip Coils just got FAQ'ed and keep you on initiative 5 even when charging through terrain. I still, usually, stick to a maximum of 3 per unit, but they're hardly a waste of points.


- T5/2W/3+. Against the majority of non MEQ stuff, which is the majority of weapons out there, this is all Wraiths are. There seems to be a big deal made about the Invul, but that's only great against anti-MEQ stuff. My Plague Marine friend laughs at why people think that the Invul is great, as they are pretty easily dealt with by conventional weapons. Lychguard and Praetorians are also T5, have a 3+ save and come with RP. Flayed Ones get you 3W per Wraith, aren't as resilient but again, come with RP. Scarabs will give you twice the number of wounds, but I'll admit this is tricky with how common S7 is right now. For those that count Wounds, Toughness, and Saves, Wraiths aren't the Top Tier choice out of the available options.

There's obviously a huge difference between 3+ and 3++. If it was as you say, people would use the cheaper Lychguard with 5 Warscythes and wreck face with STR7 AP1 Armorbane attacks at 125 points. However, I'm going to elaborate more, since you seem like a person who enjoys arguements.

Let's go back to 7th edition meta, because all this discussion feels out of place untill we decide on context. I'm going to assume we're talking about 7th edition competitive meta. (after all, a tactics discussion is obviously always made in the context of competition, not fun and casual games, right?)

7th edition, big shiny pewpew monsters, a lot of Elite forces, very few horde, STR D shots, expensive deathstars etc. I don't know if you see where I'm going with this. But, the thing is there's not as much bolterguns as there used to be. There's no Tesla as there used to be. Where dem autocannons? People have shifted together with the meta to less bodies, less bolters, more bigger guns. Half the lists out there are 10 Grav guns, 10 melta gun and 15 bolters and the rest are stormsurge/wraithknight Destroyer shots, Ion blasts etc.

Your Plague Marine friend laughs at why people think that the Invul is great and the people laugh back because your Plague Marine friend hasn't won a game since 3rd edition.

- Fearless/Jump. Praetorians and Scarabs have the same move and are Fearless. Wraithflight is only an advantage here in that rare situation where you put yourself into a position to allow your opponent to get something in range that needs to be dealt with that the other units can't get to. Flayed Ones offset their move with Infiltrate, and played aggressively, should hit the enemy lines the same time as the Wraiths. Lychguard and Flayed Ones have enough damage output that LD10 is more than enough to keep them in a fight. With so many options available in the Dex to get Fearless, or abuse the LD10, Wraiths don't Top Tier here either.


LD10 is definetely not more than enough to keep them in a fight. Lose an assault by 2-3 wounds and you have to roll a 7, which is really easy to fail. It's possibly the worst tarpit, if it's just leadership 10 and you can't really assault anything scary.

Praetorians have a very different role on the battlefield, you certainly can't assault anything scary with them, as they will turn to dust. They're more glass-cannon, precision shot on something you want really dead.

Scarabs are honestly gak. Probably one of the worst units in the codex. A single scatbike squad with 3 bikes (at 81 points, on a very mobile and tough ObSec unit) can slaughter an entire squad of scarabs in a matter of seconds. A simple blast will make an entire unit disappear. They rarely get the charge off and when they do they will die quite easily in assault too without killing really anything (or really tarpitting anything usefull at least).

And while everything I said is enough, since prets and scarabs can't possibly do what wraiths do, wraiths also have more uses. Throw in a Destroyer lord and they actually become a quite reasonable assault threat. I, personally, have a Destroyer lord in my lists when fielding Wraiths and I decide wether or not I will field him with the Wraiths or the Lychguard based on what the Wraiths shall do each game. If they tarpit something too scary, I join him to my Lychguard. If there's nothing too scary, the Wraiths will help him assault in no-time (a very good delivery method) and he can slaughter stuff since he's quite a monster. Give him a 2+ and the unit becomes virtually immortal with him at T6 tanking any "bolter shots" (like you said) and the Wraiths "Looking out sir" on a 2+ for anything that needs an invunlerable.


- Attacks. This seems to be the big sticking point for me as people try to tell me this is a big selling point. At 3A per model, they have the lowest wound count potential of the options. Rending is nice, but with so few attacks it's not enough to be consistently reliable. Praetorians are the only ones that shoot, which alone puts the equal to Wraiths attacks per model, which is double the number of attacks per wound. Flayed Ones put out 4 Attacks per wound with Shred, with T8 being the only advantage that Wraiths have on them as far as Attacks are concerned, and only then if you're not taking enough other Necrons goodness to deal with T8. (Which I'm seeing is pretty common on Wraith dependent lists). Scarabs are the same Attacks per model, but fewer per wound. They can wound anything the Wraiths can, and still do fine against Armor. With other units providing more Attacks, or more Efficient Attacks than Wraiths, they don't Top Tier here by a long shot.

No, attacks is definetely not the Wraiths' selling point. Their speed and durability is.

** I stand by what I said when I say that Whip Coils are a waste. The recent FAQ reverted Whip Coils back to being useful, but they dont increase the number of attacks. So you pay a small number of point to insure those attacks, but this also makes the cost of Praetorians/Lychguard a more attractive option.

How does paying ~9 points for 3 whip coils (for a whooping 12 str 6 rending attacks at initiative 5) make Praetorians or Lychguard more attractive? Are 9 points too much? Do the Preatorians get anything to help them survive before they strike at Initiative 2?

- Tarpit. As a standalone unit, this is where Wraiths shine. Especially in low model count CAD based lists. In more average lists, not including Decurion, they don't have RP and Cron players will eventually find a balance where the damage output of the army as a whole, combined with RP to not need to rely on Tarpit tactics. There is one exception to this, but I'll get to that at the end. Regardless, Wraiths might Top Tier here, but as soon as a Cron player gets a handle on what the army does, or moves into a Decurion, they lose the seat here to other options, including non assault options.

This is where we disagree. It's impossible to not rely on tarpit. A necron list (or really, ANY list this edition) cannot deal with everything else that there is right now on the competitive scene. There's knights, there's Wraithknights, there's Riptide wings, stormsurges, invisible deathstars, flying tyranids, psycher deathstars, demons, etc etc. It's simply too much. It's not good old 5th edition where you just pack enough anti-infantry and enough anti-tank and you have it. You need psychic defence, you need something to bypass cover saves, you need GC protection, unkillable deathstar protection etc etc.
You name one thing that can deal with Wraithknights and I'll concede the point.

- "Jack of all Trades, Master of None". The combination of having strengths is each of these categories combines to make their cost sufficient enough add to lists. This makes them a great learning tool for newer players to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of the army. Particularly those who don't know which of the above units to fill the role that they are taking Wraiths for. Even I recommend them at this stage for quite a few players while they decide which direction they want to take their list, what their Meta is, and how Wraiths are being used to know which of the other units to replace them. In orddify' ther to 'soliere position as Top Tier, they'd have to remain the best option or be irreplaceable. Which can happen on certain lists, but certainly not as a broad categorization.

Which is also my point. Wraiths are the Jack of all Trades. They deal with everything problematic that the necrons cannot. Even when there's nothing problematic to deal with(I mean rarely happens, but hey), they still gain a value and a presence in every game as long as you have a plan for them. Delivering a Destroyer lord in combat is quite a plan. And you can't exactly say if there's going to be anything "problematic" against you in the next game you play, so it's really hard to not include them in a list.

- Harvests/Decurion. Harvest do grant additional options to Wraiths, which are great but they are also options that already exist on other units. Now, I don't agree with the TAX mentality, but I'll point out something that I find humorous. Those that take a Harvest, especially a Double, run the minimum Scarabs with no expectation of them doing much. The Spyder is required to give the bonus, which again, already exists on units that aren't dependent on its range or even on the board. Adding those points, and picking the bonus does nothing to change those 3 attacks per model, just that they get them. When you divvy up the cost of the tax among the Wraiths, you end up making the Praetorians, Flayed Ones, and even Lychguard MORE attractive options. So in the end, the Wraiths fail to Top Tier here.

Well, you can't really expect too much from Scarabs really. Best case scenario they ruin an immobile drop pod in your deployment zone or tarpit a weak scout unit or something. They really can't do more than that no matter how many they are. If you buy more of them, you just make them easier to disappear.
-----

So where do they Top Tier? "Competetive" play is usually the best answer that someone gives as if that is supposed to change anything above. I'm going to try to keep my rant on what a joke "Competetive" play has become to a minimum, but it is a valid place where Wraiths Top Tier and for good reason. I mainly play Maelstrom missions with none of that Discard crap that is common, or I play Eternal War missions for smaller games. I occasionally play an ITC scenario when asked, and it's usually with one of the lists found online and not my own.

These events alter the Scenarios, change the mission objectives, don't play Maelstrom, include FAQs to restrict certain rules, limit the number of times a formation can be taken, reward Deathstars, and have still refused to allow Unbound. In an environment like this, the shift on which units become useful extend beyond the reasons listed above, and threats to Wraiths are reduced on non existent.

Well, certainly, when we talk about Tactics and what is strong or not, we're talking about Competitve. And competitive obviously can't mean Unbound, can it? Or do I have to also discuss this? Unbound would break the meta. A list with 9 Wraithknights would play against a list with 9 Monoliths and would table it in a turn(or versus a list with 90000 grots and they would be unable to hit/kill each other). There's different reasons why each would decide to make such a force, I would personally be actually interested in a 9 Monoliths list. Unbound would totally break the game in so many ways, it's impossible for the game to even exist. For an unbound list to have any meaning you must come to an agreement of some sort before you play and talk about it, which kind of means there's actual rules, which kills unbound. It's the single most stupid thing ever included in a Rulesbook. They just put it there to encourage beginers, it's obviously not a game mode you can discuss tactics on, as it's just bananas. There's no meaning in tactics without rules.

The ITC ruleset are modified Maelstrom missions that reduce the RNG factor as much as possible, to make it a more fair fight.

Wraiths Top Tier here because they do things that aren't normally required in Maelstrom/EW missions, where threats to them are reduced, and taking units that outperform them don't score the points needed to win.

What more? It's the same game.

So Wraiths are Top Tier, in an environment where they thrive, by players who prefer to play by a group of rules and a set of scenarios, where they feel the game is playable. A that according to the group,survey not too long ago, shows that they are the minority of the community as a whole. I deal with this a lot where I currently live, and run into these "Competetive" players often. When they step up, and start playing the missions, especially Maelstrom, the Wraiths simply don't hold up. It's too easy to either deal with them, ignore them, or throw something at them to eat through until it's too late to have an impact on the game.

So yeah, I have NO IDEA why Wraiths are considered Top Tier.

Amen on your last sentence, you really do have no idea why Wraiths are considered Top Tier.

I finally think I've got the hang of this situation. You're talking about the games you play. You go to your FLGS each week, have a group of friends (the Plagues Marine one included!) you like to hang out with and have fun. You're playing games quite often, so you think you've developped a sense for Tactics that "competitive" people are too blind to see, because they play a "different game with different missions". All this time, that you're spouting "tactics" and "strong and weak points" you meant relevant to your FLGS local meta. You meant Preatorians are better versus your friend who plays Plague Marines because he has no AP3 weapons and Prets just slaughter him, while the Wraiths just die as easily to bolter fire. Which is a fair point, I'll concede that.

However, usually, on the internet, because Local Meta is not everywhere the same, we usually talk relevant to what's generally viewed as competitive(such a dreadful word), aka the meta. But, the general meta, not your FLGS meta. That is mostly defined, like it or not, by the ITC.Are you making a point about Wraiths being subpar because you're playing versus Plague Marines and they're not helping you win?Because, that should be something that you should say before you make your point. Powerful/Weak relevant to what? Since you didn't mention anything, I assumed the "meta" (as in the ITC meta, which is the only thing we can talk about that we have in common, because local meta as I said again is different locally, which is why it's called local meta) and have responded accordingly.

Warriors are not top tier, because they have limited range, they are slow and they are not dangerous. An assault threat will make short work of them and a shooting threat will either ignore them or just outshoot them. (or just out-speed and out-score)


 Akar wrote:
Having internet issues with the storm so didn't see your comment. Going to leave the HQs there, but no, I don't really have a 3rd Top Tier unit. Not because there isn't one, but because our Dex is really good enough that it depends on what you're bringing.


I do agree with the general idea here. Each unit has a different role. Stacking up on units with the same role wouldn't benefit the list even if they were all top tier. Filling up on all the roles is more important to keep relevant in the meta. Just do it by taking as many High Tier units as possible and keep them all synergised.

Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit.

No they don't. Why would they? Exept only if you mean strictly in a phalanx with a lot of necron warriors and no other legit long range shooting. Which is very limited and quite the opposite of strong.

Ghost Ark Warriors move Destroyers and Scarabs up a bit.

Definetely not. Nothing can move the Scarabs up. Not even 9 Spyders can make Scarabs usefull.

Immortal based lists move Praetorians and Wraiths up a bit.

What do you mean Immortal based lists? Immortals are only fielded because you can take 5 of them in CADs and spare some tax points, otherwise, they contend with the scarabs for "worst unit of the codex". How can you base an entire list on the worst unit of the codex?

It's part of what makes Crons a balanced codex, and makes it difficult to really put stuff into Tiers. Even Deathmarks, Harvests, and Lychguard move up depending on outside factors like Local Meta, Casual/Tournament play, storyline/campaign, etc. I've tried to Tier the units out with all of these in mind.

Yes, obviously the Tiers move with the local meta. Which is why we assume we're talking for the general meta (aka competitive ICT play) and build tier lists (or at least as accurate as they can be) based on it.


I'm not going to go on and write more arguments about why I also disagree with your entire Tier list, since it seems that we're generally looking at this from a totally different PoV. I would like, however, to engage in further discussion with you and ask you if you think what you say should generally be true in other places of the world or if it is only limited to the people you play with.

Do you happen to play with a lot of people bringing Gladius (with 6+ razorbacks, generally more than 11 obsec vehicles and as many marines too) or Deathgaurd Warbands? How does your list specifically fair against them?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/25 01:27:44


Post by: Akar


col_impact wrote:
Your placing of Warriors as top-tier seems very off since they are basically a CAD tax or a Reclamation Legion tax . They certainly are solid compared to other troop choices in other codexes, but not compared to other units in the Necron codex. Most players view Warriors as little more than a tax. A Silver Tide list can do okay in tournament formats but is not great.

You asked out of curiosity, so I gave my honest answer. I'll respond with my reasons, and it's not about being right or wrong here. It's about what I feel is the best decision.

The TAX mentality is probably one of the biggest flaws in any 40k army. I strongly believe that as long as you treat any unit as simply a means to get another unit, then you're doing it wrong. My approach to the formations is to reward players for playing units that they like, as opposed to trying to break them. The units are in a formation for a reason, so if you're not going to look at why they're there, then why waste the points, money, and time on a unit that you have no intention of having participate in the game? I completely understand that the bonuses are often really good, but the bonuses usually benefit these TAX units in someway. Why not learn what that is and invest in why they're there?

Since I have put my faith in Warriors, Tomb Blades, and love Immortals, the Reclamation Legion is my reward. Taking Tax units, is just an evolution of the old days where you took 2 minimum Troop Choices and filled up with the cool stuff and played a game. Again, this applies to any army, not just Crons. I'm not surprised one bit when players post 'How do I deal with X', and then notice the minimum required Warriors on their lists. It gets even more amusing when they refuse to point the finger at the unit that they treated Warriors as a tax, just to get in the first place. As long as anyone treats Warriors as a TAX, then they're never really given the opportunity to see what they actually do.

col_impact wrote:
A list built entirely of Harvests is certainly more formidable than a list built entirely of Warriors.

I respect this opinion, and I'll go with the opposite. Ignoring the that you're comparing a Formation to a Unit, Pure Wraith lists just don't have the killing power to go up against most lists out there, competitive or not. It certainly won't die, but I can't see it lasting very long. In defense of the Warriors, as above, they have way more combo options, and a good number of those don't even require a formation, so they won't don't even have to Subscribe to the TAX mentality to accomplish that.

col_impact wrote:
In fact the ITC has decided to restrict the number of Harvests in their tournaments to no more than 2 in order to be fair to the other players. There is no restriction on the number of Warrior units.

Do you have any data or anything objective to back up your claim that Warriors are top-tier? My claim that Harvests are top-tier can be backed up by looking at winning Necron lists across a variety of tournament formats. And, if you look at the same Necron lists you will find that they play the minimum allowed number of Warriors.

First bit, I'm not going to discuss much about the ITC here. It's not 40k, it's one of the least competitive formats out there, and it's been around so long that players have forgotten how to tell the difference. I'm happy to discuss it civilly if you'd like to discuss it further, feel free to PM. As this is a Tactica Necron thread, this is where I'll end on this point.

Staying on topic though, I don't think anyone thinks the 2xForm. restriction had anything to do with specifically making Wraiths fair to other players. I wasn't aware that the formation was ever Unfair once the codex after ours got released? I wasn't aware that it was still unfair in an environment that now allows assaulting from Reserve, assaulting from Outflank, Psychic powers that can move them out of the way, or cheap recycling units that will offer more than they can kill. I understand your viewpoint, but my experience says otherwise.

Unfortunately, I can't show any evidence to prove that Warriors are the best unit we have in our dex. My experience over the years has shown me that Warriors are the MVP of the dex. I've been playing Crons for 17 years now, and Warriors were the only Troop choice for the longest time. I started out like most players and ran the minimum unit to get all the good stuff, which really hurt when we had 'Phase Out'. I didn't win a single game for the first 9 months as I slowly added more and more Warriors to stop 'Phase Out'. Once I found that number, I became a powerhouse and started winning games and even a few RTTs. Landing Overall at Gamesday 2002 (or it could've been 03) was surprising to even me, as I wasn't expecting it. In fact, I completely ignored them calling out my name until my friends pointed out that my name was being said.

Fast Forward to now and having to switch to a horde mentality when running Warriors. My army has exploded from fitting into one case to needing a third. Warriors took a hit by being reduced to a 4+ save and this initially pissed me off. That was before I saw the changes to how good RP had gotten in general, and it was pointed out to me that I was still doing well. The biggest change that took me a long time to see was the point reduction. The drop to 13 pts is INSANE. I can get 100 of these guys for 1300 points and pretty much say 'Good Luck' to my opponents. Not many players look at Warriors that way, and it's easy to see when you compare them on a unit by unit basis, and I'll even admit that Warriors don't look great when you see what virtually every other unit in the Codex.

Where I'm actually having a hard time, is that I've been challenged to make a list without Warriors. Warriorless Necrons are slightly more expensive Marines, and don't perform well in most environments. This is the simplest of all reasons why they're Top Tier, it's hard to run a list without them, and not because they're a requirement. As you can see from either my army lists, or simply commenting, that this is clearly not the majority thinking of the Current Necron community. Even Skoffs and I have disagreed rather vehemently on several subjects, but he has always respected my experiences with Warriors. Like ANY unit, they do have their good days and bad days. From when I've started playing them, to now, they have more good days than any other unit I've run.

I'm not out to try and convince anyone to my way of thinking. It's a playstyle that I've found and have had a TON of fun with, and I appreciate you respecting that, asking what you don't understand, and politely offering a different opinion without assuming that I haven't tried it. I own 12 Wraiths, and they haven't seen much table time in 7th, there are simply better options. Warrior heavy is not for everyone, but it is by no means any less competitive than the standard min Rec Legion, with Harvest/Harvest or Harvest/DCult. The tragedy is that there won't be any way to prove it, until competitive events return, if they ever do.
-----
Quickly, back to my original question, which has gotten lost. Has anyone got an answer about Warriors benefiting from Triarch Stalkers while embarked?
-----
Now to dissect Necr0n's post.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/25 14:34:15


Post by: necr0n


Clearly, we're talking in relevant to different Rules/Meta when we speak, so any sort of tactical discussion is, probably, fruitless. I will concede that Silver Tide can be competitive, but it really misses not being ObSec and there's armies that do it better. (I feel at least. That would be Gladius Marines like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars and Deathguard Chaos Warbands with fearless, ObSec, FNP zombies (at 4points per model)).

So, I feel like we're not particularly good at being a silver tide, due to missing ObSec (and honestly, we're less tough too) on said tide. However, there's nothing stopping people from pulling it off with extra necrony goodness.

Listen, I've played a lot of Necrons too, not as much as you, but I played my fair share. I did play back when Phase out was a real problem. Back then, it was a numbers game. Literally. I played a list with 8 Destroyers, 2 Heavy D's, 2 Monoliths, 1 Necron Lord with Resorb (1750)and all the remaining points were just warriors and I'd still get tabled a lot of times to phase out, because I didn't have enough warriors.Man, I really didn't want to field more warriors.

The thing is I did not enjoy this numbers game. I do not like it as an idea, to be forced into playing many of the same model, especially when they are the simplest, most boring just regular troops. I like scary ghosts (wraiths), I like stronger versions of Warriors with snipers (deathmarks), I like diversity. (that's not tactics, just personal preference).

So as soon as the Matt Ward codex hit and almost everything was not subpar and we could field whatever we liked, I went nuts. I'm not a huge fan of fluff, I really enjoy the minis and the games. That codex was the best thing that ever happened in 40k for me. I had countless options to field assault oriented necrons, shooty necrons, teleporting necrons, flyers necrons, Scarabfarm, Wraithwing. I went nuts on 5th edition, it was my favorite time, tried everything out, bought a ton of models, played 1000 different lists and had a lot of fun.

Where am I going with this? No clue, just wanted to mention Matt Ward was a king.

I'd like to say the following to Akar however:

You're limiting yourself and only play a single archetype of list for a long time. It's obviously getting buffed a lot, but so is everything else. (Hello powercreep)

The fact that your personality, practice, character and mind help YOU do better with only that type of list also doesn't mean the rest are useless. Obviously, playing one archetype of list for 17 years is a lot of practice, you've a gak ton of experience with warrior lists and can make it work even in places where it shouldnt. Obviously, it works better for you than other lists do, but that definetely doesn't mean it would work better for everyone else too.

I'd like to point out here, that while list building is important, giving a cheesy Eldar list to a random player does not mean he will do well. Understanding your lists strengths and weaknesses, its ability to deal with the rest of the meta lists, practicing and having a plan is just as important as "having a strong list".

Making a Tier List, I'll admit is kind of impossible, as it really matters what else is included in your list (aka, synergy). But, since we had some rough drafts, I'll say the following:
You can't really put on a Tier list based on a single archetype of army. How can warriors be top tier for non-silver tide armies?
Note that listing them at Top Tier obviously means fielding way more than the required 20 is going to provide you with a powerful advantage. And I say that this is only going to be the case if the rest of your list is also Silver Tide and it's made to support Warriors. If I go in my Destroyer Cult/Canoptek Harvest and simply add a lot of Warriors, I will not have points to make my Destroyers or Wraiths an actual threat.

I'd also like to add that 7th edition heavily nerfed Warriors and Warrior lists due to giving EVERYTHING scoring. (Heck, they don't even get ObSec in Decurions)

Now, they are not needed to score, they are going to compare normally in role efficiency versus every other unit in the codex without adding anything extra.

At 13 points per model, Marine stats, RP and Gauss, they make a SWEET troops choice. (Well, not scatbike sweet, but sweet) We're lucky the Necrons are a faction with one of the best troops available right now. I'll give you that.

However, warriors can accomplish very few roles, mostly. Basicly, there's not many things they can achieve. They are very slow, so they can't really score well (move to and from objectives). They can't shoot well. 24" rapid fire weapons are very limited and a very big number of them is needed before they become a threat to anything. A whole squad can fire at 2 Marines and they still won't die. Being able to wound and glance vehicles on 6s is nice, but, most of the times, it's just something that you say "Hey, my warriors can kill Land Raiders", but rarely happens. Someone would need to have 30 Warriors in 24" range from a rhino to half-reliably shoot it down (if it doesn't get cover from any of the squads).

Obviously, assault isn't something they do. Thanks to being tougher in Decurions they can survive assault better, but being Iniatiative 2 and not fearless means that sometimes they'll get run down TOO easily. And that gets scarier the bigger squads you make.

So, their role is "deploy in key positions, try to contest objectives, block off strategic parts of the table, try to draw fire on that crazy good tough statline and Gauss things that need Gaussing." It's kind of limited and won't deal with what most lists bring on the table. They have no real answer to kill stuff that is hard to kill (Anything with good saves) or big toughness. They have no range and they're too scared to get close because of assault reasons. But, my biggest issue with them is being slow and 24" rapidfire weapons makes them really harmless, to the point where opponents don't ever have to deal with them.

However, in the context of a silver tide army, their effectiveness at 13ppm shines, their stats are amazing, opponents are forced to deal with them and that's how you get to see those tough to kill 13ppm shine. They are definetely top Tier in a silver tide army, they're the best unit in the codex efficiency wise.

In non-silver tide armies, their really efficient toughness is hard to make use of, since people will generally ignore them unless you make some very good and strategic moves with them. Block certain pieces of terrain, Camp certain paths of the map etc, use them as LoS cover to other units, etc.

In my lists, I really see them shine inside Ghost Arks however, since it boosts their shooting significantly and they get to move a lot. That is a price that you pay though, because in order to boost my warriors value a lot, I have to field a unit of mediocre-at best efficiency (the Ghost Ark). The Ghost Ark costs 105 points and it's just too easy for a lot of armies to remove. It gives Destroyer Shots and high strength shots a target they previously did not have in a Decurion with only infantry models. However, I really like it when it draws a LOT of bullets to its Jink save, and draws attention away from Destroyers/Wraiths/Prets.

So, would the warriors be a generally top tier choice? I think not, because of their limited capabilities at dealing with anything.

Obviously, I feel like I'm talking to a person who does know what he's talking about (akar), but the coversation we're having is vague.We're talking relevant to different types of competition and trying to make a Tier List, as I said, I think is impossible, due to the complications of list building.

I'd like instead, maybe for this thread we can make several "archetypes" based on which you can make lists. Then, we would discuss its pros and cons and what each unit brings to the table for that certain archetype. Then, we'd jump to conclusions based on experience of how to deal with certain meta lists with said archetype.

EG: Silver tide: strong vs eldar scatbike spam, weak vs Deathguard comp. Warriors add this, Immortals will add advantage in case of Wraithknight (not actually, just an example). Lychguard help this list deal with Vehicles (not really, just an example) and so on.
But more analytical. I'm not sure if we can do that, or if it's too much work, but it's worth suggesting.

EDIT:
 Akar wrote:



Quickly, back to my original question, which has gotten lost. Has anyone got an answer about Warriors benefiting from Triarch Stalkers while embarked?


Why would they not benefit?



EDIT 2:

Just for the keks: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/04/22/tits-tournaments-adepticon-2013-top-16-lists-ton-pics/
Only like 12 out of 16 top armies have 2+ units of Wraiths(while lots also have 3 maxed out units). Probably because they were "bearly fieldable". And back then, there were no ITC differentiations, it's pure 40k. I don't think you can argue with that being competitive.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/25 19:09:08


Post by: Klowny


Well this is intense.

I have a question about how we deal with Tzeench deamon summoning.

how do we deal with Tzeench deamon summoning?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/25 21:15:41


Post by: Requizen


Klowny wrote:
Well this is intense.

I have a question about how we deal with Tzeench deamon summoning.

how do we deal with Tzeench deamon summoning?


Haha cute. You don't really, for both of you it's just a game of trying to cover the objectives with your bodies and keep the other off. You by being Necrons and not dying, him by flooding it with free bodies. Neither of you have ObSec (well, his Troops will, but not the Summoned ones afaik), so it's just a grind to see who holds objectives.

Spoiler alert, it's usually the army with 1000 free points backed up by superbuffed Princes (and now Magnus).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/25 22:39:14


Post by: Claas


So I want to brush the cobs webs off of orikan. I was thinking of running a decurion with a royal court, d cult and 6 wraith harvest at 1850. I was thinking Orikan with a overlord (war scythe, shroud, phase shifter) overlord (veil) and solar staff lord. I love sticking a void reaper d lord with my wraiths but would like to give the court PE. Would using a heavy destroyer with the court be a crazy idea?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 01:38:20


Post by: skoffs


No, adding a D-Lord is a typical load out for an Orikan-star.
But be aware that you may want to stick Obyron in there, too, to give yourself a second Veil in case you need to get out of a combat you don't want to be in.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 03:07:34


Post by: Draco765


 skoffs wrote:
No, adding a D-Lord is a typical load out for an Orikan-star.
But be aware that you may want to stick Obyron in there, too, to give yourself a second Veil in case you need to get out of a combat you don't want to be in.


Obyron can not teleport out of a combat. The Veil wearer can. (they switched them around from the old dex)



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 03:07:36


Post by: Akar


 necr0n wrote:
 Akar wrote:
Quickly, back to my original question, which has gotten lost. Has anyone got an answer about Warriors benefiting from Triarch Stalkers while embarked?
Why would they not benefit?
It seems to switch back and forth, usually in the General FAQ. Banners, Psychic Powers, abilities. It comes up every now and again, and it really boils down to if models in the Transport count as being on the board. I've gotten rid of my Ghost Arks, and I'm trying to help a new Cron player out. I didn't see a BRB FAQ in the recent release. That's all really.
----------------------------------------------------------
There was a TON to sort through. I know mine are long responses as well, so I'll cover the ones that haven't already been answered, or are worth answering. Several of them have been condensed, so I've tried to group them all.

 necr0n wrote:

- There's obviously a huge difference between 3+ and 3++.
- The amount of shooting that they will draw because of that fact and the shift away from the attention from the rest of your army is priceless. Because, point for point they are VERY survivable compared to just about anything. They're only instadying to Str10 and StrD.


* You left out Force Weapons. The first part of this I've already covered. Our approach to the 3++ is from opposite sides. I stand by what I said above. The 3++ ONLY comes into play when being hit with AP 3- Weapons. All other weapons, that 3++ doesn't make a single bit of difference. With the exception of 'Iyanden', Imp. Knights, and maybe Ad. Mech, AP 3- Weapons are not the majority of the weapons that are in an opponents army. I'm sure there are others, but they're not common, and I wouldn't expect to see them in typical games. AP 3- weapons that have the shorter range, are even less common, but those usually come with a reliable delivery system like Bikes, Deep Strike, Transports, etc. I'm really curious how you get your opponents to blow the AP 3- weapons on the Wraiths and not go for something in a higher Tier? Grav weapons aside (I'll get to that), I can't think of many opponents that will bring an Alpha Strike reserve unit, look at all the targets on the board, and then decide to blow it on the Wraiths.

Armies that can dish out a high volume of low AP wounds are the Wraiths Weakness, even with the buff. (See below for Harvests) This was the extent of the Plague Marine reference. The T5, 3+ doesn't seem to bother those same players when they play him, and his biggest death is to small arms, not AP 3-. It was never about whether he wins/loses, just that the complaints don't make sense. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons can all reliably stack so many wounds on Wraiths, that the 3++ isn't going to make a difference. Against certain matchups, this can be a handicap, as it can just as easily force those high AP shots into the Top Tier units.

Grav is the odd exception. From what I've seen, the Grav units that are common are popular because they can pump out a high volume of low AP shots. They also have the advantage of avoiding Toughness much like Poison weapons do. So in this particular instance, using an AP 3- weapon makes sense, and having the 3++ has an impact. I get the same satisfaction when Grav is used on Warriors/Flayed Ones though. 1/2 the shots don't wound as opposed to the 2/3 vs. Wraiths. I get a 1/3 reduction off of that, and smile when my opponent realizes he's spent a good investment of points, to kill a fraction of the damage he was hoping for.

 necr0n wrote:

In the Canoptek Harvest Formation that most use them, they will also get the RP roll on the first round at least for a ridiculous 3++ 5T 2W, 4+++ 40 point model.

The Harvest comes with the drawback of needing a Babysitter, which isn't as resilient, or as fast as the Wraiths. Majority of Opponents know this, so I don't need to say too much more. Since Harvests aren't usually taken outside of a Decurion, that 3++/4+ RP does look attractive. Of course, virtually every other unit also gets the 4+ RP, and doesn't need a babysitter or lose this bonus.

Praetorians are the closest comparison to Wraiths, so I'll just use them as a simple example. In a Decurion both units are Fearless, T5, with a 3+ save. Both units will have the 4+ RP. The Wraiths win by having the 3++. The Praetorians win by keeping their 4+ RP, and they're not tethered to anything to get that. It's an fair trade.
 necr0n wrote:

How does paying ~9 points for 3 whip coils (for a whooping 12 str 6 rending attacks at initiative 5, make Praetorians or Lychguard more attractive? Are 9 points too much? Do the Preatorians get anything to help them survive before they strike at Initiative 2?

I'll admit after reading the above, this needs some explaining.

I'll use Praetorians in this example, but the same approach applies to Lychguard/Flayed Ones.

A full unit of 6 Wraiths (strip down) is 240 Points. It's 18(24) Attacks.
8 Praetorians is 224 points. It's 16(24) Attacks,+8 Shots. *Not reliant on Rending.

Add Whip Coils to all of them for 258pts, and you get 18(24) Attacks.
9 Praetorians is 252 points. For 18(26)pts, +9 Shots.

Take a Harvest (min +110 Pts). Wraiths get 18(24) Attacks.
Now you're up to a min Judicator of 10 Praetorians for 20(30) Attacks, +10 Shots.
The Stalker is going to improve those attacks, and benefit the rest of the army. Harvest won't.

Same approach for Lychguard, and Flayed Ones. The difference with these two units, is that they are already in the Decurion either as a part of the formation already, or not required.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Then you make these statements.
 necr0n wrote:

- No, attacks is definetely not the Wraiths' selling point. Their speed and durability is.
- Whip Coils just got FAQ'ed and keep you on initiative 5 even when charging through terrain. I still, usually, stick to a maximum of 3 per unit, but they're hardly a waste of points.

So the Wraiths attacks aren't their selling point, but you're still going to make sure they get them? It's contradictory, but I'll agree that coils are a great use of filler points.

 necr0n wrote:
You name one thing that can deal with Wraithknights and I'll concede the point.

Flayed Ones. Just because it's easier to list the one thing that CAN'T deal with Wraithknights. Everything else has just as much chance to wound T8, most of which doesn't have to wait until it gets into base contact. Since you're not bringing Wraiths for their damage output, then any unit with a higher damage output would be a better choice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 necr0n wrote:
- After all, a tactics discussion is obviously always made in the context of competition, not fun and casual games, right?
- Well, certainly, when we talk about Tactics and what is strong or not, we're talking about Competitve. And competitive obviously can't mean Unbound, can it? Or do I have to also discuss this?
- Which is why we assume we're talking for the general meta (aka competitive ITC play) and build tier lists (or at least as accurate as they can be) based on it.
- Obviously, it works better for you than other lists do, but that definetely doesn't mean it would work better for everyone else too.
One of us is confused about what a Tactica Thread is. A Tactica thread should be about how to use each unit available and make them work. In order to do that, we have to play 40k. This includes EW, Maelstrom, Mysterious Objectives, RNG in general. It also has to include the possibility of Unbound, which doesn't break the Meta any more than the ITC chokes it. This alone makes it the most 'competetive' advice, and easier to adjust when you choose to adjust to the removal/addition of rules, like the ITC. This is why I ignore any of the ITC lists, and have no merit outside of the ITC. Being good at the ITC means you're good at the ITC. Im sure that these players are top notch players, but their ITC ranking doesn't translate outside of that format.

Going to go a bit Off Topic, but cover the points relevant. I don't like Unbound Abuse, but I'm also not seeing it being abused. I've met 3 players who have abused it, one of them admitted that he did, but he just loved the models/fluff/painting. They've run out of people to play real fast. There are players who build Battleforged lists that can't find people to play, so I don't even see why that's a factor anymore. Im well aware that they're out there, I don't agree with it, but there is nothing Illegal about it. Most players, competetive or not, are actually pretty civil about Unbound when it comes down to it, because they use that grey matter to decide that investing money into something they won't be able to use is usually enough of a deterrent to prevent, and often a good enough reason to allow it.

If you're going to impose ITC (or any Independent event) in a Tactica thread, then you aren't playing 40k. This isn't a 'Build the best Cron' list thread. This isn't an ITC Cron Tactica thread. When a player asks the question on how to play a certain unit, even Scarabs. 'They suck, just run Wraiths' isnt the answer. If it is, then the title of the thread needs to change to reflect that. Or they should the existing Army Lists forum, where players other players list what parts of 40k they aren't playing for whatever reason.

If we can't share our differing opinions in a Tactica Thread, so that those looking for information on those units can find it, then what is it's purpose? I don't normally Tier units but was asked how I would. I enjoyed the exercise, and explained why. The good responses have been 'Interesting, why do you think that?'. This not only encourages discussion, but is why I subscribe to 'Tactica' threads. Nobody wins when it degrades into 'Why you're wrong', especially when the statement end up there.
 necr0n wrote:
-Do you happen to play with a lot of people bringing Gladius (with 6+ razorbacks, generally more than 11 obsec vehicles and as many marines too) or Deathguard Warbands? How does your list specifically fair against them?

I will concede that Silver Tide can be competitive, but it really misses not being ObSec and there's armies that do it better. (I feel at least. That would be Gladius Marines like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars and Deathguard Chaos Warbands with fearless, ObSec, FNP zombies (at 4points per model)).

Quite often, and I do decent against them. A bit off Topic, but a large part of this is due to the fact that I play straight Maelstrom, and sit in the camp that it's the BEST thing to happen to 40k. My last game went 13/11 so it was close, but he also only had 1 Thunderfire cannon, 1/2 a Dev Squad and 2 Techmarines left on the board. A recent 2.9k Relic game vs. SW with all the Wulfen/TWolf cav goodness, ended in a Draw. I was Wraithless, still had well over 1/2 my army. He only had 1 wound clutching onto the relic at the end of Turn 6, and a lone Scout that we both left alone for the story. (He lost all of his Brothers to the first volley of Tomb Blades, but survived the 10 Tesla Immortals and 20 Warrior shots after that. I let him live to witness the horror!!)

ObSec is powerful, and I have a few ObSec/CAD lists that win quite often. In Maelstrom missions, you claim objectives by controlling it at the end of your turn. This is something that Wraiths do not excel at. If my opponent is on an objective that I need to score, I rely on the Decurion to blow everything off, and it works very well. Vs. ObSec opponents, like the Gladius, I can't stop him from getting it. Since I'm on it, and I'm incredibly difficult to move, it usually costs him the unit. This is exactly what happened in the above game. He had to choose to keep his line, or break the line and go after the point. It was much more challenging and competetive for the both of us in this format than the ITC. He's looking forward to the rematch.

I've got plenty of more stories, but virtually all of them are from playing un-neutered 40k. It's just Off Topic. They don't serve to prove a point, just that my experience has shown me otherwise, and is limited to playing Maelstrom/EW missions, which is the basis of the advice I give.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 necr0n wrote:

- They were a Necron staple in any list and the very well known "wraithwing" with 18 Wraiths
- So, our answer to everything is an all rounder very fast, terrain-ignoring, scoring, fearless, tough to kill tarpitter.
- Wraiths are the only unit that provides somewhat of an answer to quite some of those threats. Beasts with 12" movement and fleet that ignore terrain are amazingly easy to navigate on enemy stormsurges.
- Wraiths are absolutely the finest and only answer our codex can bring in any context or shape or form.
- Scarabs are honestly gak. Probably one of the worst units in the codex.
- Nothing can move the Scarabs up. Not even 9 Spyders can make Scarabs useful.
- Well, you can't really expect too much from Scarabs really.
- This is where we disagree. It's impossible to not rely on tarpit.
- Wraiths are the Jack of all Trades. They deal with everything problematic that the necrons cannot.
- (Akar: Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit)No they don't. Why would they?
- What do you mean Immortal based lists? Immortals are only fielded because you can take 5 of them in CADs...
- You can't really put on a Tier list based on a single archetype of army.
- Obviously, assault isn't something they do.
- Would the warriors be a generally top tier choice? I think not, because of their limited capabilities at dealing with anything.
ALL of this.
 necr0n wrote:

-You're limiting yourself and only play a single archetype of list for a long time. It's obviously getting buffed a lot, but so is everything else.
Then you go with this? I'm referencing things that I've run, and you choose to rationalize them off, then state that I'm down to a single Archetype list? Interesting.

You never asked if I ran 'Wraithwing'. I have. You never asked if I've run a 'Wraithstar'. I have. You never asked what my experience with Ghost Arks is, when I've seen enough before selling them to give advice. You've never asked if I've ever played or tried anything other than the 'Silver Tide' archetype. I have. I've seen the Tarpit units actually prevent me from tabling my opponent because they were the only unit left in combat, and wouldn't die. I've seen my opponent feed Wraiths 2 units of generic Marines to protect what they were going after, only to end up getting out of combat right before the game ended, while forcing the rest of my force to deal with the bigger threat. Here I learned that it's not only possible, but quite common that I do have an answer to these threats, and don't need Wraiths in any of it's inclusions to deal with the threats that I'm constantly being told they can't deal with.

I've played an Immortal based list with 50 Immortals (30G/20T) that leaves you with enough points to have an HQ of your choice and fit at 1000 points. This leaves you with plenty of points to fill it with Destroyers and Wraiths which all become Top Tier in this setup. Anti-Meq tactics work well enough against it. I'm fine tuning (ie past theorycrafting) a list that has my opponents absolutely hating Scarabs. I've run a ~100 man CAD with Zahndrekh/Szeras (or both) Even had enough points left over to take non-commital Wraiths to handle anything that managed to get too close.

NONE of this makes me any more right than you are right. None of this proves you in any way, shape or form that Wraiths aren't the best answer. I've never intended to give the impression that Wraiths are bad or that they're wrong. All I've questioned is why people think that they're a Top Tier, Auto-include, answer to everything, and hoping for some answers I'm not here to prove why they're bad when I already know they're not. Ie, using a Tactica Thread for the actual tactics. I KNOW they're popular and I'm looking for something that I'm maybe missing. Something that I can actually TAKE to a game and observe, and find out why I would take them over another unit.

EDIT: After seeing how long this has gotten, I'm going back off before I cross anymore into 'Warning' Territory. You won't see much more on this from me. I respect your views, but lets get this back on the track before it completely derails.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 03:48:52


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


You're missing a lot. One of the things that wasn't covered though was the low cost of investment though.

In order to get just two squads of Praetorians and the Stalker (which is a mild tax) is 405 points. For just 55 points more, I get two Canoptek Harvests. In order to get Lychguard anywhere, you have to invest in a lot for them. Wraiths don't need the support even though they still make a fantastic deathstar.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 04:00:17


Post by: skoffs


Draco765 wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
No, adding a D-Lord is a typical load out for an Orikan-star.
But be aware that you may want to stick Obyron in there, too, to give yourself a second Veil in case you need to get out of a combat you don't want to be in.

Obyron can not teleport out of a combat. The Veil wearer can. (they switched them around from the old dex)

Yes, which is why you have both of them in there, so Obyron can use his turn one to get the unit into position, and the Veil is there to move them again after/in emergencies.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 04:20:35


Post by: Grimgold


There is a lot here to unpack,

First let me start with an observation, harvest and lych stars are both very common in top placing Necron armies, if wraiths and lychguard are as bad as you say why would that be the case? You could blame it on bias but bias rarely makes it into the winners circle.

The rather obvious answer is they don't suck. Wraiths are a tough, hard hitting and fast unit. They can either be a tarpit or a scalpel. Used correctly they can jam up an opponent's gunline, draw fire to themselves, and slow down an opponent's death star. Your complaints about lychguard would be valid if you only used lychguard by themselves. When taken with a O-Lord and a veil, they are capable of turn two charges just about anywhere on the board. Their presence is very disruptive to gunline enemies. Even if you can't catch your opponents, you can still use them to herd your opponent into your kill zones. Even a basic lych star is capable of jamming up a death star that didn't bring unit wide hit and run, so they are excellent at deterrence.

Another observation, if there is no large difference between a 3+ and a 3++ , why do so many top placing death stars have a 3++? Surely it's not a coincidence, since top lists are purpose built, as opposed to haphazard?

The answer here is simple, when your opponent is correctly choosing targets, he will use the correct AP on targets to get the most bang for his buck. In short when you have an expensive unit without an invul, the opponent will use his low AP weapons to remove them, it's common sense. Your argument that nobody brings much AP 3 is absolutely the wrong way to think about it, they certainly bring enough to kill your squad of prats in a turn. If wraiths were 3+ as opposed to 3++ you see them get merc'd by missile launchers or grav before they could get close. Instead you never see those weapons fired at wraiths because those weapons are inefficient against them.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 05:47:05


Post by: SonsofVulkan


A Necron army just came in 3rd at the golden sprue GT.

Basically a Pylon Star(3 pylons) and a Wraith Star(6 wraiths).

Wraiths could get tar pitted by a couple units of marines if your not careful and don't position well. A wraith star however shouldn't be stuck for more than 1 round unless they are against another deathstar. A destroyer lord with scythe and Orikan should be enough AP2 to slice thru a bunch of marines or termies a long with the rending attacks. Wraiths are auto take for sure but if a player can't use them correctly then they could be a big failure


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:18:18


Post by: skoffs


Did that 3rd place list have a Destroyer Lord + Orikan with the Wraiths?
(or even better, do you have a link to said list?)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:29:03


Post by: col_impact


I have been messing around with an ITC legal Pylon/Wraithstar. Is the Golden Sprue GT an ITC event?


PylonWraithStar (1850pts)

Royal Court (Primary)
Anrakyr the Traveller
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Obyron
Cryptek (Chronometron, The Solar Staff)
Lord (The Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
1x Canoptek Spyder (Gloom Prism)
6x Canoptek Wraiths

Allied Detachment
Destroyer Lord (Phase Shifter, Resurrection Orb, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe)
5x Immortal
5x Tomb Blades (Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster)
3x Sentry Pylon (Focussed Death Ray)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:30:00


Post by: JNAProductions


Can't have an allied detachment the same faction as your primary.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:31:52


Post by: col_impact


 JNAProductions wrote:
Can't have an allied detachment the same faction as your primary.


ITC allows it. But I will have to confirm that. It looks like that may have been dropped in the ITC with 7th edition.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:41:15


Post by: JNAProductions


Then ignore me!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 06:48:27


Post by: col_impact


Found the winning lists.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/01/25/the-goldensprue-cup-gt-aftermath/


Necron CAD
D Lord (NS, WS, PS, RO)
7 immortals (Pyrrhian Eternals)
10 Warriors, Ghost Ark
6 Wraiths (2 WC)
3 Sentry Pylons with focused death rays

Royal Court
Anrakyr (Warlord)
Obyron
Lord (Veil)
Cryptek (Solar Staff)
Orikan


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 07:05:14


Post by: Slayer-Fan123



Not a bad take, but an extra Necron Lord instead of the extra Cryptek might have gone better in the long run. I dunno.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 07:08:20


Post by: col_impact


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not a bad take, but an extra Necron Lord instead of the extra Cryptek might have gone better in the long run. I dunno.


I think that makes it easier to keep the unit majority toughness 7.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 07:10:36


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


col_impact wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not a bad take, but an extra Necron Lord instead of the extra Cryptek might have gone better in the long run. I dunno.


I think that makes it easier to keep the unit majority toughness 7.

I miacounted the Lords so that actually makes sense.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 09:15:42


Post by: skoffs


So what's the setup with that list?
Is it just a case of Destroyer Lord with the Wraiths and everyone else with the Pylons, or is there some other shenanigans at play here?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 09:55:28


Post by: sivil


Can Anrakyr use mind in the machine to Allie of Convenience ?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 10:10:09


Post by: col_impact


sivil wrote:
Can Anrakyr use mind in the machine to Allie of Convenience ?


Yup. Good catch. So you could use him to get some extra shooting out of a renegade knight or something like that.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 12:00:51


Post by: torblind


 Grimgold wrote:
There is a lot here to unpack,

First let me start with an observation, harvest and lych stars are both very common in top placing Necron armies, if wraiths and lychguard are as bad as you say why would that be the case? You could blame it on bias but bias rarely makes it into the winners circle.
[...]


Guys coming in late: Akar made a (correct) point about this being a discussion on "40k tactics", not "ITC tactics" (it having a modified ruleset), which on its own surely is an interesting topic, for another thread.

(If it wasn't for the fact that everybody seems to agree on wraiths, wraiths, wraiths).

Read his posts with that in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are depths to his arguments that deserve more than that kind of shallow generalization.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 12:17:05


Post by: SicSemperTyrannis


 skoffs wrote:
Okay, I want to hear honest opinions:
Can the Obelisk be competitive now, with the fixes to its guns?
If so, what are its uses?


I thought it´s only use was annoy flying things which now got FAQ´d to not work with FMC´s so... yeah... no thanks . I wouldn´t touch it with a rusty pole and rather take 23 more Warriors.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 12:23:58


Post by: sivil


col_impact wrote:
sivil wrote:
Can Anrakyr use mind in the machine to Allie of Convenience ?


Yup. Good catch. So you could use him to get some extra shooting out of a renegade knight or something like that.


That Why I Ask! I want to try MITM to my regegade knight.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 12:30:30


Post by: TomWilton


You guys keep putting Destroyers very high on the list, yet I can not seem to ever make them work that way. Is that explains?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 13:32:48


Post by: torblind


They have the JSJ possibility, but that means they need proper terrain to jump behind (not too ruined buildings most typically), so in that sense the JSJ aspect of it is somewhat situational.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 13:43:05


Post by: skoffs


Destroyers are boss at taking out the majority of your opponent's army, but not so much against their best stuff (Knights, Wraithknights, Deathstars, etc).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 14:43:52


Post by: necr0n


 Akar wrote:


 necr0n wrote:

- There's obviously a huge difference between 3+ and 3++.
- The amount of shooting that they will draw because of that fact and the shift away from the attention from the rest of your army is priceless. Because, point for point they are VERY survivable compared to just about anything. They're only instadying to Str10 and StrD.



Armies that can dish out a high volume of low AP wounds are the Wraiths Weakness, even with the buff.

The meta does not have too many of those. Which is why Wraiths are good in this meta. Also, you'll notice that just about 90% of the lists that include Wraiths, as well as mine also include a Destroyer lord (with a 2+ and a a 4+ RP) tanking for them. Prets don't get that, because that would be a waste of a Destroyer Lord, since Destroyer Lords want to be in combats that Prets don't. Or at least, I've never ever seen anyone run a Destroyer Lord with Prets.


 necr0n wrote:

In the Canoptek Harvest Formation that most use them, they will also get the RP roll on the first round at least for a ridiculous 3++ 5T 2W, 4+++ 40 point model.


Praetorians are the closest comparison to Wraiths, so I'll just use them as a simple example. In a Decurion both units are Fearless, T5, with a 3+ save. Both units will have the 4+ RP. The Wraiths win by having the 3++. The Praetorians win by keeping their 4+ RP, and they're not tethered to anything to get that. It's an fair trade.

First of all, Praetorians should not by any means be compared with Wraiths. Tactically, their roles are very different. You're comparing a high damage, glass canon unit to a tough, less killy unit. Praetorians do not want to get in Assault with almost anything that the Wraiths do. Initiative 2 and no invulnerable saves is quite a deadly combination. Prets are good at making soft stuff disappear. Wraiths might get stuck in combat with soft stuff for ages if there's no destroyer lord to help them.

However, Prets can't really get in combat with MC's, vehicles, walkers, titans, GC's, deathstars or even any assault oriented units. That's what Wraiths do and they do it well.

Also, how is 4+ RP equal to two wounds, 3++ (and a situational 4+ RP) ?


 necr0n wrote:

How does paying ~9 points for 3 whip coils (for a whooping 12 str 6 rending attacks at initiative 5, make Praetorians or Lychguard more attractive? Are 9 points too much? Do the Preatorians get anything to help them survive before they strike at Initiative 2?

I'll admit after reading the above, this needs some explaining.

I'll use Praetorians in this example, but the same approach applies to Lychguard/Flayed Ones.

A full unit of 6 Wraiths (strip down) is 240 Points. It's 18(24) Attacks.
8 Praetorians is 224 points. It's 16(24) Attacks,+8 Shots. *Not reliant on Rending.

Add Whip Coils to all of them for 258pts, and you get 18(24) Attacks.
9 Praetorians is 252 points. For 18(26)pts, +9 Shots.

Take a Harvest (min +110 Pts). Wraiths get 18(24) Attacks.
Now you're up to a min Judicator of 10 Praetorians for 20(30) Attacks, +10 Shots.
The Stalker is going to improve those attacks, and benefit the rest of the army. Harvest won't.

As I said again, attacks are not the Wraiths' selling point. Obviously the glass-cannon prets are killier.That's not something you need to prove, it's common knowledge.

Also, Triarch Stalkers are so easy to kill it's almost laughable. More than 50% of the people play Marine and friend with melta drop pods and Grav spam. Triarch stalker is never surviving turn 2 or more.

And to add to whip coils conversation. If I could buy Whip Coils for my prets, I'd buy them even if it was more than double the price.


Then you make these statements.
 necr0n wrote:

- No, attacks is definetely not the Wraiths' selling point. Their speed and durability is.
- Whip Coils just got FAQ'ed and keep you on initiative 5 even when charging through terrain. I still, usually, stick to a maximum of 3 per unit, but they're hardly a waste of points.

So the Wraiths attacks aren't their selling point, but you're still going to make sure they get them? It's contradictory, but I'll agree that coils are a great use of filler points.

Attacks are not their selling point means that they are not, as I already explained, considered strong due to killing stuff reliably. Their attacks are mediocre for their points cost. Because, point for point, they are very fast and durable. And that's why they shine. However, I'm not going to lose all their attacks and just let them hover, just because it's not their main selling point. What are you trying to imply? Warriors' shooting is not their main selling point, maybe drop their guns?


If we can't share our differing opinions in a Tactica Thread, so that those looking for information on those units can find it, then what is it's purpose? I don't normally Tier units but was asked how I would. I enjoyed the exercise, and explained why. The good responses have been 'Interesting, why do you think that?'. This not only encourages discussion, but is why I subscribe to 'Tactica' threads. Nobody wins when it degrades into 'Why you're wrong', especially when the statement end up there.

So, you can have differing opinions, but I cannot.Or do I not have the right to defend my opinion? You only liked the responses that agreed with you, but actually having counter-arguments is something counter productive. I don't get this.

 necr0n wrote:
-Do you happen to play with a lot of people bringing Gladius (with 6+ razorbacks, generally more than 11 obsec vehicles and as many marines too) or Deathguard Warbands? How does your list specifically fair against them?

I will concede that Silver Tide can be competitive, but it really misses not being ObSec and there's armies that do it better. (I feel at least. That would be Gladius Marines like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars and Deathguard Chaos Warbands with fearless, ObSec, FNP zombies (at 4points per model)).

Quite often, and I do decent against them. A bit off Topic, but a large part of this is due to the fact that I play straight Maelstrom, and sit in the camp that it's the BEST thing to happen to 40k. My last game went 13/11 so it was close, but he also only had 1 Thunderfire cannon, 1/2 a Dev Squad and 2 Techmarines left on the board. A recent 2.9k Relic game vs. SW with all the Wulfen/TWolf cav goodness, ended in a Draw. I was Wraithless, still had well over 1/2 my army. He only had 1 wound clutching onto the relic at the end of Turn 6, and a lone Scout that we both left alone for the story. (He lost all of his Brothers to the first volley of Tomb Blades, but survived the 10 Tesla Immortals and 20 Warrior shots after that. I let him live to witness the horror!!)

I did not ask for battle reports. Merely a tactic display of how you approach these kinds of games. For example how do you deal with the Deathguard Chaos warband with zombies. They outnumber you, they are all scoring, they all have FNP and fearless, so how do you win? They do the "sit on objectives" just far better than you. What is your gameplan, what do you focus?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 necr0n wrote:

- They were a Necron staple in any list and the very well known "wraithwing" with 18 Wraiths
- So, our answer to everything is an all rounder very fast, terrain-ignoring, scoring, fearless, tough to kill tarpitter.
- Wraiths are the only unit that provides somewhat of an answer to quite some of those threats. Beasts with 12" movement and fleet that ignore terrain are amazingly easy to navigate on enemy stormsurges.
- Wraiths are absolutely the finest and only answer our codex can bring in any context or shape or form.
- Scarabs are honestly gak. Probably one of the worst units in the codex.
- Nothing can move the Scarabs up. Not even 9 Spyders can make Scarabs useful.
- Well, you can't really expect too much from Scarabs really.
- This is where we disagree. It's impossible to not rely on tarpit.
- Wraiths are the Jack of all Trades. They deal with everything problematic that the necrons cannot.
- (Akar: Footslogging Warriors move Flayed Ones and Tesla Immortals up a bit)No they don't. Why would they?
- What do you mean Immortal based lists? Immortals are only fielded because you can take 5 of them in CADs...
- You can't really put on a Tier list based on a single archetype of army.
- Obviously, assault isn't something they do.
- Would the warriors be a generally top tier choice? I think not, because of their limited capabilities at dealing with anything.
ALL of this.
 necr0n wrote:

-You're limiting yourself and only play a single archetype of list for a long time. It's obviously getting buffed a lot, but so is everything else.
Then you go with this? I'm referencing things that I've run, and you choose to rationalize them off, then state that I'm down to a single Archetype list? Interesting.

You never asked if I ran 'Wraithwing'. I have. You never asked if I've run a 'Wraithstar'. I have. You never asked what my experience with Ghost Arks is, when I've seen enough before selling them to give advice. You've never asked if I've ever played or tried anything other than the 'Silver Tide' archetype. I have. I've seen the Tarpit units actually prevent me from tabling my opponent because they were the only unit left in combat, and wouldn't die. I've seen my opponent feed Wraiths 2 units of generic Marines to protect what they were going after, only to end up getting out of combat right before the game ended, while forcing the rest of my force to deal with the bigger threat. Here I learned that it's not only possible, but quite common that I do have an answer to these threats, and don't need Wraiths in any of it's inclusions to deal with the threats that I'm constantly being told they can't deal with.

I never said you didn't try out lists or anything. I just said you're sticking with a single Archetype. Obviously, if you've been stopped by your own tarpitters to table your opponent you played them wrong. Why would you tarpit something that you can otherwise kill?

I've played an Immortal based list with 50 Immortals (30G/20T) that leaves you with enough points to have an HQ of your choice and fit at 1000 points. This leaves you with plenty of points to fill it with Destroyers and Wraiths which all become Top Tier in this setup. Anti-Meq tactics work well enough against it. I'm fine tuning (ie past theorycrafting) a list that has my opponents absolutely hating Scarabs. I've run a ~100 man CAD with Zahndrekh/Szeras (or both) Even had enough points left over to take non-commital Wraiths to handle anything that managed to get too close.

NONE of this makes me any more right than you are right. None of this proves you in any way, shape or form that Wraiths aren't the best answer. I've never intended to give the impression that Wraiths are bad or that they're wrong. All I've questioned is why people think that they're a Top Tier, Auto-include, answer to everything, and hoping for some answers I'm not here to prove why they're bad when I already know they're not. Ie, using a Tactica Thread for the actual tactics. I KNOW they're popular and I'm looking for something that I'm maybe missing. Something that I can actually TAKE to a game and observe, and find out why I would take them over another unit.

What. You actually did give the impression that Wraiths are bad. Noone actually said they are "auto-include, answer to everything", that's just you again. People, including myself have suggested that Wraiths are a Top Tier choice. They are fielded for very specific reasons and they solve some problems that I don't think other units of the same codex would solve efficiently. You wrote word for word " They needed the buff to be fieldable, and they only barely make the cut."

EDIT: After seeing how long this has gotten, I'm going back off before I cross anymore into 'Warning' Territory. You won't see much more on this from me. I respect your views, but lets get this back on the track before it completely derails.



I'm not going to abandon a discussion we're having simply because you think said discussion is derailing. It's not, it's an on-going discussion on a claim that you made that Wraiths are borderline fieldable. I'm trying to invalidate all your arguments to support my claim, that they are indeed a Top Tier choice, since they are both multi-role (which is invaluable in most games, especially in this edition where there's huge differences/requirements from army to army) and probably top in the codex at all of their roles. (sucking bullets, tarpit, assault delivery system for Destroyer Lords and MC/GC/SHV hunting)

torblind wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
There is a lot here to unpack,

First let me start with an observation, harvest and lych stars are both very common in top placing Necron armies, if wraiths and lychguard are as bad as you say why would that be the case? You could blame it on bias but bias rarely makes it into the winners circle.
[...]


Guys coming in late: Akar made a (correct) point about this being a discussion on "40k tactics", not "ITC tactics" (it having a modified ruleset), which on its own surely is an interesting topic, for another thread.

(If it wasn't for the fact that everybody seems to agree on wraiths, wraiths, wraiths).

Read his posts with that in mind.


ITC is 40k, it's not a different game. This is a Tactics thread and as a Tactics thread, we're supposed to discuss competitive games, which mostly happen in the environment of tournaments. All the competitive games and GTs run the ITC format. Do you just want to ignore every legit Tournament arround and talk about something different? There's also very few differences Tactics wise and the lists that do well in ITC also do well in Rulesbook missions. The only thing the ITC does is limit the list building cheese to SOME degree and remove some RNG from the missions.

Instead, what do you suggest we talk about? One of my LGS meta is litteraly only MEQ/TEQ. They've been playing DA/Templars/BA without too much shooting every since 3rd edition and won't change it since(it's gone to an extend where even when new people start armies at this store, everyone arround tells them what's "op" so they also buy assault focused stuff. Like, for christ sake, people think the eldar Avatar is OP). They think anything capable of CC is OP (Like TWC, Wraiths, Mephiston, Terminators, etc). Do you want me to talk relevant to my meta? Litteraly fielding 2 Doomsday Arks is enough to reliably table 90% of the lists someone would face in there. I can't really come here and claim that Doomsday Arks are Top Tier because I have internet and I can move to see what other people play with. So, instead I have to focus my attention on what is generally considered as "meta". What people all arround the world play. That would have to be ITC, merely because it's so broadly accepted. Besides everything else, when there's lists that win GT's people are bound to copy them and the meta spreads. So, why is it off-topic to talk ITC? Like it or not, ITC is competitive play. That's not an opinion. It's not up for discussion. If it's broken or not is up for discussion, surely. If you like it or not? Also discussion. But, ITC is the meta, even if you think it's broken, at least because it is so broadly accepted.

Also there are depths to his arguments that deserve more than that kind of shallow generalization.

There is actually not nearly enough depth as implied to his arguments. He's comparing units with different tactical roles in a non-defined environment. It's not ITC meta, but we don't know what it is, it's a secret.
To explain myself: Instead of taking two similar units and see how they would fair against a common opponent you expect to face, he's denying ITC meta and lists so there's no background and he's also comparing units with completely different roles. The apples and oranges metaphor would suit perfectly here.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 15:18:44


Post by: Neophyte2012


 skoffs wrote:
Destroyers are boss at taking out the majority of your opponent's army, but not so much against their best stuff (Knights, Wraithknights, Deathstars, etc).


As well as anything with stealth / shrouded which gets 3+ / 2+ cover save. They have so few shots for their points.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 16:29:08


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Pylon Star will actually shred thru most DG stuff and ignore their FNP. Wraiths are actually good at taking down zombies since their S6.

Destroyer Lord is probably running with the Wraiths, Orikan can go with either Star.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 17:07:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I wonder how much the Warriors + the Ark was worth it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 17:34:36


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wonder how much the Warriors + the Ark was worth it.


I personally rather take a scarab and spider for the harvest formation, you get more units on field to contest objectives and keep the wraiths more durable for a few turns until the spider dies.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 17:47:09


Post by: torblind


 necr0n wrote:

ITC is 40k, it's not a different game.... [too much text for a simple point] ...broadly accepted.


So...

Guy1 says: [Tons of text]... btw this PoV applies to a non-tournament/ITC setting... [and then another ton of text]

Guy2 says: Hey, that PoV doesn't hold up in a tournament/ITC-setting.


Pointing out the obvious here was the only right thing to do. (Guy2 missed that one crucial statement in all that text)


Please go on and discuss whatever you want, wherever you like, but pulling in other people's statements on other topics is bad for you. Not to mention that innocent bystanders like me get annoyed enough by it to make posts like this.


 necr0n wrote:


Also there are depths to his arguments that deserve more than that kind of shallow generalization.

There is actually not nearly enough depth as implied to his arguments. He's comparing units with different tactical roles in a non-defined environment. It's not ITC meta, but we don't know what it is, it's a secret.
To explain myself: Instead of taking two similar units and see how they would fair against a common opponent you expect to face, he's denying ITC meta and lists so there's no background and he's also comparing units with completely different roles. The apples and oranges metaphor would suit perfectly here.


... And you have spent several forum meters conveying your opinion on the matter. Now let others convey theirs.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 18:19:55


Post by: necr0n


torblind wrote:

So...

Guy1 says: [Tons of text]... btw this PoV applies to a non-tournament/ITC setting... [and then another ton of text]

Guy2 says: Hey, that PoV doesn't hold up in a tournament/ITC-setting.

Pointing out the obvious here was the only right thing to do. (Guy2 missed that one crucial statement in all that text)

I never said that it doesn't hold up in tournament/ITC setting. I disagree with what he wrote on all possible levels. Rulesbook missions too, fluffy list games and even unbound.
I think Guy 3 missed the entire meaning of my post and has to read it again.

Please go on and discuss whatever you want, wherever you like, but pulling in other people's statements on other topics is bad for you. Not to mention that innocent bystanders like me get annoyed enough by it to make posts like this.

I don't get this. I really, actually, don't understand what you were annoyed by. Really honestly and no sarcasm or irony intended. I quoted your text to respond it. You wrote "hey guys, this is a tactics thread for 40k, let's talk 40k and not ITC" and I made a post where I quoted you and answered to you that I believe ITC/40k is not different. It was a direct answer to the direct proposal you made. Please explain how I am annoying and I'll try to fix it. I'm only trying to discuss tactics politely and in an informative manner.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 18:55:45


Post by: Grimgold


torblind wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
There is a lot here to unpack,

First let me start with an observation, harvest and lych stars are both very common in top placing Necron armies, if wraiths and lychguard are as bad as you say why would that be the case? You could blame it on bias but bias rarely makes it into the winners circle.
[...]


Guys coming in late: Akar made a (correct) point about this being a discussion on "40k tactics", not "ITC tactics" (it having a modified ruleset), which on its own surely is an interesting topic, for another thread.

(If it wasn't for the fact that everybody seems to agree on wraiths, wraiths, wraiths).

Read his posts with that in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are depths to his arguments that deserve more than that kind of shallow generalization.


When you have the numbers, you should argue the facts, when you have the precedence, you should argue the history, when you have neither you're left with attacking your opponent's data set. ITC is the same animal as 40k only played at the highest levels of efficacy, the ITC FAQ has no big changes for Necrons, so our top list are effectively identical in and out of ITC. As for his arguments deserving more, I read his posts, and he has some legitimately bad ideas about how the game functions currently. I choose those two examples because they were the easiest to disentangle, with logic and precedence. Another is his insistence on the unimportance of initiative for wraiths, eg, his argument against whipcoils (and if he doesn't use whipcoils on wraiths that might explain why he doesn't like them). I believe he is sincere in his beliefs and his desire to be helpful, but I don't think he is able to see beyond his local meta, which is not reflective of how necrons are played at the highest levels. A tactics thread by its nature should be about the highest level of play. So I suppose my desire is for you to show me the wrongness of my "shallow generalizations" , or quit complaining about them.

For instance, do you believe opponents capable of correctly prioritizing targets are infrequent enough that his 3++ isn't much better than 3+ argument is defensible? Do you believe his spiel about the percentage of low AP weapons is actually a useful heuristic for determining the type of saves one should bring? You cared enough to call me out, so here I am and I'm all ears.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 19:12:31


Post by: Claas


I usually always play some combo of a decurion with d cult and canoptek harvest. I cannot see how wraiths can be anything but top tier in our codex. What unit is your opponent going to be worrying about if they know they are playing Necrons? What Necron unit gets discussed the most in opponents tactic threads? I know some have mentioned watching an opponent panic and waste a turn of shooting on wraiths. However you are also likely to see an opponent use some kind of alpha strike or all their shooting trying to kill your 50 point Spyder. Which again works to your advantage.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 21:38:48


Post by: torblind


Wow, this is the most gone-horribly-wrong little clarification helper-post I have ever done. Apologies.

So 3 points on this post's agenda:

Point 1:

 necr0n wrote:
I never said that it doesn't hold up in tournament/ITC setting. I disagree with what he wrote on all possible levels. Rulesbook missions too, fluffy list games and even unbound.
I think Guy 3 missed the entire meaning of my post and has to read it again.


I assume I'm Guy 3. You on the other hand, have not been rewarded with a number yet, because you are absolutely right, you never said this.

If you kindly go read again, you will see that I quoted Grimgold saying this.

So if you please, seeing as he got the address...


Point 2:

 Grimgold wrote:
[... a lot of material for Akar should he ever choose to answer ...]

You cared enough to call me out, so here I am and I'm all ears.


So yeah, in case you missed it, (most mortals would), he specifically does not talk about the ITC/tournament scene, where you don't need to handle lists that are a wraithknight, 5 flyrants and 20 eldar jetbikes or some other shenanigans.


I'm sure you did, or you didn't, in either way you are now duly informed.


Seeing as his replies are super long and somewhat repetitive and people's counter replies are even longer and sometimes repetitivier, I figured I could quickly step in to avoid all that noise and keep the thread focused (because I thought it was very interesting).


Boy did that backfire.


I happily withdraw any accusation that your statement was shallow, that is really for Akar to comment on. If you have read it all and that is how you feel the issue is best addressed, then no worries.


Seeing as he had chosen to step out of the thread, again I thought I'd step in and nudge the discussion in a more fruitful direction in stead of it dropping right there and then. Boy did that backfire, etc...


For the respect of the sanity of this thread, it is for Akar to answer your post, not me, I don't feel anywhere near as strongly about it as he does thought I enjoyed very much reading his reasoning.

Point 3:

 necr0n wrote:
I don't get this. I really, actually, don't understand what you were annoyed by.


Grimgold discussed ITC, when Akar specifically said he addressed a non-ITC setting. I thought Grimgold had simply missed that one fact. See most of above. Though backfire etc.

I fully endorse arguing without sarcasm and emotionally laden statements, and I happily admit that I myself fail miserably at it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/26 22:52:21


Post by: sieGermans


For what it's worth, there is so little activity in this thread normally (i.e., 1-3 posts per day, max), that if people want to "go off on tangents" specific to ITC, there's still plenty of oxygen left in the room for other discussion (and it's interesting reading anyway).

I would suggest that if there's to be a discussion about what tiers units fall into, that it would be useful to define the criteria.

Ubiquity is an interesting and common choice, but I don't think it's useful as a metric since it's only indicative of performance.

Performance of a Role is useful, but is usually non-transferable to a broader metric since the Utility of the Role is incredibly meta dependent.

Absolute Strength/Resilience can frequently descend into a performance argument, but has the merit of being the most objective in its initial assessment. Nonetheless, metas can very much affect its relative, and therefore final assessment value.

Fun and Fluff are absolutely valid bases for expressing value, but will not likely be warmly received in a Tactics forum/thread.

Are there others I missed? What do you guys think? I suggest we could probably toss these into a multi-variable rubric and gauge the general attitude towards each of the codex options.

I'm not certain how to incorporate or control these assessments for formations, however. It feels like the formations would need their own evaluation, and that would apply weights to an Alternate Rubric for the units?

All of this would be "for love of numbers," of course. No one should seriously just try slamming a bunch of highly rated, potentially non synergistic units together, so this tier list would be a totally pointless, fun exercise.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 00:36:34


Post by: FireSkullz2


Question, how do you unlock the full potential of Praetorians? I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with it...


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 00:45:25


Post by: skoffs


Neophyte2012 wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
Destroyers are boss at taking out the majority of your opponent's army, but not so much against their best stuff (Knights, Wraithknights, Deathstars, etc).

As well as anything with stealth / shrouded which gets 3+ / 2+ cover save. They have so few shots for their points.

Which is where your scoped Tomb Blades come in handy!
(assuming you brought more than the bare minimum)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 00:47:56


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Exactly. Tomb Blades and Destroyers just compliment each other stupidly well.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 00:55:41


Post by: Showtime


FireSkullz2 wrote:
Question, how do you unlock the full potential of Praetorians? I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with it...


I'm curious about this as well. They seem to be outdone by other units in everything but the Judicator formation (where you need them)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 01:53:06


Post by: Drakmord


The Judicator Battalion gives them MtC, which (correct me if I'm wrong) allows them to deep strike or deploy from a Night Scythe directly into cover. Which is something, though I've never tried it as I feel that Praetorians and Destroyers have similar enough targets that I don't try to bring both.

Were I to run them I feel that they would be an offensive complement to a Canoptek Harvest, assaulting into chaff while the Wraiths hold up the things that would otherwise perforate the Praetorians.

But Destroyers can do that, too, from 24" away, and anything camping a high cover save to thwart the Destroyers can (probably) be dealt with by Tomb Blades, which a Decurion is likely to already have.

---

Another question: has anyone considered the Gauss Pylon, in order to deal with things like the War Sect? It really freakin' blows that it can't fire at ground targets at full efficiency, and that is a very understandable reason to never field it until/unless that changes. But I don't know what other options we really have for dealing with the Sect if it stays in the air, and for other lists you can throw it into their face with its 3rd edition Deep Strike protection and wish it into being something besides a paperweight that costs a quarter of your points.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 03:17:01


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Drakmord wrote:
The Judicator Battalion gives them MtC, which (correct me if I'm wrong) allows them to deep strike or deploy from a Night Scythe directly into cover. Which is something, though I've never tried it as I feel that Praetorians and Destroyers have similar enough targets that I don't try to bring both.

Were I to run them I feel that they would be an offensive complement to a Canoptek Harvest, assaulting into chaff while the Wraiths hold up the things that would otherwise perforate the Praetorians.

But Destroyers can do that, too, from 24" away, and anything camping a high cover save to thwart the Destroyers can (probably) be dealt with by Tomb Blades, which a Decurion is likely to already have.

---

Another question: has anyone considered the Gauss Pylon, in order to deal with things like the War Sect? It really freakin' blows that it can't fire at ground targets at full efficiency, and that is a very understandable reason to never field it until/unless that changes. But I don't know what other options we really have for dealing with the Sect if it stays in the air, and for other lists you can throw it into their face with its 3rd edition Deep Strike protection and wish it into being something besides a paperweight that costs a quarter of your points.



You kinda have to ignore Magnus and just go after the other DPs and taking out all the summoned daemons. Honestly running Necron Stars against Rehati War Sect is a very bad matchup, they are more mobile and can summon crap load of daemons every turn to control the board.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 03:26:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Definitely go after the dudes contributing the most Warp Charges for the points. It is how you neuter Magnus and then just tie him up with Wraiths.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 03:57:50


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Definitely go after the dudes contributing the most Warp Charges for the points. It is how you neuter Magnus and then just tie him up with Wraiths.


Nick's latest GT winning list has 18 base WCs, 14 of them are from Magnus + DPs. The FMCs are always up in the air, you will not get the chance to tie them up unless you get lucky and snap shot wound and he fails grounding check.

I would run a Decurion with multiple Harvests. The warriors and immortal hold down the back field objectives and send the Wraiths towards his back field to take out the brimstones and any summoned units then contest his objectives. The DPs are used mainly for summoning and shrieking. Shriek is not that good against Necrons due to LD10 unless he also rolls Doombolt or something, so basically Magnus will be his main offensive work horse. Majority of Magnus' spells are 18" range, so spread out your Wraiths units so he can only range one or a turn. Another strat is you wait for Magnus to fly up towards your line, then veil a unit of Wraiths into your back field. But then he has the Masque who can shut down the movement of at least 1 Wraith unit every turn OUCH.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 08:33:18


Post by: skoffs


Hmm, maybe there is a case for Gauss Sentry Pylons (the ones with Skyfire) in competitive after all...


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 14:28:33


Post by: Anpu-adom


 skoffs wrote:
Hmm, maybe there is a case for Gauss Sentry Pylons (the ones with Skyfire) in competitive after all...


But will they have enough targets in the meta? Magnus/Demons are the only armies using fliers/skimmers/FMC's in the metal. Nids are largely gone, no Waveserpent Spam, and no Dark Eldar. Tau have their tetras and Chaos take Dreadclaws sometimes. You can't even use Interceptor against Droppods, right?

It has the makings of a really good Spoiler list though.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 14:55:08


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The DftS made it so that you hit Jetbikes at normal BS right?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 16:14:05


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The DftS made it so that you hit Jetbikes at normal BS right?


Its still a 2 shot lascannon, not sure if its worth it. Cursed earth gives them 3++(2++ for Magnus) re-roll 1s and honestly I don't think its enough to take down Magnus, maybe a DP.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 16:33:47


Post by: necr0n


 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The DftS made it so that you hit Jetbikes at normal BS right?


Its still a 2 shot lascannon, not sure if its worth it. Cursed earth gives them 3++(2++ for Magnus) re-roll 1s and honestly I don't think its enough to take down Magnus, maybe a DP.


It's 3-shot strength D. You're probably talking about the Sentry Pylon, while I think everyone else should be talking about the Gauss Pylon.

Or probably not. Two str9 shots wouldn't justify the Gauss Sentry Pylon, I believe.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 16:47:48


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The Gauss Pylon would be too expensive I'd imagine. I don't even remember the points for it though so...


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 23:07:01


Post by: SonsofVulkan


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Gauss Pylon would be too expensive I'd imagine. I don't even remember the points for it though so...


Oh that thing... its 420 pts and is a immobile artillery. Even though it has 120" range it still needs LOS, and deep striking it could suck if you don't have comm relay. Not sure how one can be build a list around it, its just not point efficient and can get tar pitted easily.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 23:35:22


Post by: Draco765


It is a Vehicle, so never gets tar pitted. It is also a super-heavy so immune to 'most' of the vehicle damage chart.

Don't forget the 5++ 12" bubble around it for "all Necron units" which would also include other Necron Vehicles.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/27 23:43:06


Post by: Drakmord


Zahndrekh has access to reserve manipulation as well, if one does not want to use a comms relay. For what it's even allowed to shoot at, I doubt that they will be able to reliably break LOS. The Gauss Pylon is pretty big, and flyers/FMCs that start on the board would have to deploy out of sight in order to avoid getting blown up.

If DftS allows it to fire at jetbikes with full efficiency that's pretty cool, but those would have a much easier time hiding from it. You'd have to be using DftS, too, which won't really be mandatory until it gets rolled into the BRB next edition.

Its flux arc isn't terrible but it's short range, and I don't know how easy it would be to tarpit as its AoE invuln save encourages the Necron player to keep other units close by. Triarch Stalkers would enjoy that invuln though; 5++ is better than the nothing they get otherwise!

For everything else, the Gauss Pylon costs a lot for a SHV that can't fire on whatever it wants, and I think that will unfortunately hold it back until either IA12 v2 or 8th edition change how its rules work.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/28 01:10:17


Post by: skoffs


Alright, so how about fortification options, then?
Guns with Skyfire?
Or do we just get Void Shields for our Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers and hope for the best?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/28 03:59:00


Post by: Oberron


I think the tomb is still really solid from FW, never even heard of a game where it was used but its stats are fantastic for what you get imo.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/28 04:21:27


Post by: Drakmord


Oberron wrote:
I think the tomb is still really solid from FW, never even heard of a game where it was used but its stats are fantastic for what you get imo.


It's a Realm of Battle board, isn't it?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/28 06:32:30


Post by: Oberron


Drakmord wrote:
Oberron wrote:
I think the tomb is still really solid from FW, never even heard of a game where it was used but its stats are fantastic for what you get imo.


It's a Realm of Battle board, isn't it?


As far as I can tell yes.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/28 07:33:54


Post by: skoffs


The Necron Tomb Citadel
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-JP/Realm-of-Battle-Necron-Tomb-Citadel?_requestid=16912349

Naked, the thing costs as much as an Obelisk, then you gotta start paying for upgrades.

See following thread for details-
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540853.page

In my opinion, not worth it. Not without an update, anyway (and we all know how likely that will be).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 11:55:25


Post by: necr0n


I don't think we should go for Anti-Air. That's just not something we do well. It seems impossible for any kind of shooting to take down Magnus, let alone shooting that's available to Necrons. Tesla was just nerfed too much. ( :( )

Instead focus on playing the objectives as much as possible. Blink for objectives, get some more boots on the ground, possibly. I'd guess Ghost Arks become more valuable as they are harder to kill by demons, I think. D shots would be required and our godly vehicles can jink that.

In this new meta of Cabalstar, Magnus, flying demons, Fateweaver etc. I think Decurion is no longer competitive. The lists I've been tinkering with for the past month or so have been mostly double CAD.
Double CAD is like a single CAD, exept 2 HQs and 4 Troops are required. The whole reason I went CAD was because of the Troops, so I don't see 4 Troops as a tax and the 2 HQ's are the whole reason I went for 2 CADs instead of one. ( I need 3 or 4 HQ's) So, I'm going for tax-free, ObSec troops and I'm only losing 4+ RP, which is not something I care about, because I'm neither fielding a Destroyer Cult or a Judicator Battalion and therefore, there's no elite troops losing their survivability. To further boost that, my troops will be mostly riding vehicles or benefit from 4+ RP from Crypteks.

Things I really like in CADcrons and, therefore, Double-CADcrons:

-Ghost Arks
-Wraiths
-Destroyer Lord Wraithstar
-Lychstar with Orikan
-Nightscythes with either MSU ObSec troops or tactical precision removal like Prets.
-Warrior blobs with Crypteks(like Szeras), even better when supported by Ghost Arks

Things I kinda like in CADcrons and, therefore, Double-CADcrons:
-All vehicles. (over infantry) This is the list to go vehicle heavy and upset some lists not ready to deal with 10+ AV13 vehicles.
-Tomb Blades
-Deathmarks
-Possibly some fortification, although I haven't really looked at any, never really bothered with it.

Without further ado, here's a list as an example. It's a Lychstar, again, as I really like the models and put a lot of work painting them, but I don't think it's the most competitive:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/715937.page#9168068

Spoiler:

Double CAD Necrons

HQ

Orikan the Diviner - 120pts
Overlord (Phase shifter, Ressurection Orb, Voidreaper) - 160pts
Destroyer Lord (Nightmare Shroud, Phase shifter, Warscythe) - 190pts
Vargard Obyron - 120pts

Troops

5 Immortals (Nightscythe) - 215pts
5 Immortals (Nightscythe) - 215pts
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts

Elites

5 Lychguard (Sword and Shield) - 150pts

Fast Attack

5 Wraiths (3 Whip Coils) - 209pts

Total - 1849pts



EDIT: That would be an example of an adjusted Silver tide: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/715939.page#9168122

Spoiler:

HQ

Destroyer Lord (The Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Warscythe) - 190pts
Illuminor Szeras - 110pts
Cryptek (Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of light) - 115pts

Troops

10 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
10 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 235pts
17 Warriors - 221pts
10 Immortals (Nightscythe) - 300pts

Fast Attack

5 Wraiths (3 Whip Coils) - 209pts

Total - 1850pts

Szeras joined 17 man warrior squad. Veiltek joins 10 man Nightscythe Immortal squad. Destroyer Lord tanks for Wraiths.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 17:44:10


Post by: skoffs


No formations you'd want to add to the above lists?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 18:04:58


Post by: wuestenfux


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Since the 5th ed codex.
T5 2W units with S6 Rending and 3+ invuls are really good.

Indeed, one of the best units in the game.
As we know, with a decurion the unit is even better.
I'm surprised to see that some here seem to prefer Lynchguard.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 18:12:28


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


That's because Lychguard are still good.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 18:31:08


Post by: Anpu-adom


I think that the difference is the s6 rending for 43 points (who are we kidding about whipcoils), verses s7 AP2 with armorbane for 25 points. There are other obvious differences that I don't need to get into, but the Lychguard with Warscythes just kill the things that Necrons go up against (Knights and 2+ Deathstars). Wraiths are reliant on rolling 6's to do damage in a lot of cases. Lychguard just need to not roll 1's.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 22:17:40


Post by: col_impact


 Anpu-adom wrote:
I think that the difference is the s6 rending for 43 points (who are we kidding about whipcoils), verses s7 AP2 with armorbane for 25 points. There are other obvious differences that I don't need to get into, but the Lychguard with Warscythes just kill the things that Necrons go up against (Knights and 2+ Deathstars). Wraiths are reliant on rolling 6's to do damage in a lot of cases. Lychguard just need to not roll 1's.


Why would a Wraithknight or a 2+ Deathstar let the Lychguard catch it if it couldn't handle them?

The whole reason Wraiths are far superior to Lychguards is mobility.

Mobility is the most important trait for an assault unit to have.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/29 22:54:12


Post by: necr0n


Lychguard and Wraiths are different units, with different capabilities and roles. Especially so, the Warscythe ones. The Lychguard are a slow unit, that's very hard to make use of. Getting the Warscythe Lychguard to assault something that's actually scary means that 1) they won't die in shooting, even though they lack invulnerable saves. 2) they will somehow manage to assault that "scary something", even though they have a 6" movement. "Scary something" will have to stay still and not avoid them.
Honestly, those are pretty hard to pull off.Maybe if they could get Ghost Arks?

The sword and board lychguard are quite similar to the Wraiths, as to the "they are really tough, they carry HQ's that kill and they have a realistic plan to assault through Wraiths' speed and Lychguard Veil of Darkness". However, they still differ a lot.

The Wraithstar is a fast unit you can either break to tarpit with wraiths and assault another target with the Destroyer Lord after he's delivered and you mostly get to chose your assaults thanks to being really fast and ignoring terrain. You can chase what you want, put pressure on flanks etc.

The Lychstar is a unit that is way less efficient point for point compared to what it's going to do on the tabletop. They get their efficiency in presence. It has to start from a really aggressive deployment, where you threaten either the center of the board or a certain flank/objective. This deployment will lead to a certain answer from your opponent most probably. After that, you get to either 1) Move/Run first turn to keep that push there or 2) Veil turn one if there's a threat you're wanting to neutralise. That pesky stormsurge, that Grav heavy unit. You Deepstrike turn one close to a threat you're wanting to neutralise and you force it to move or get assaulted. Forcing that movement is quite valuable on its own, even though you might not get the assault on it. People don't really like shooting the Lychstar unit due to it being relatively easy to avoid, but deploying it, redeploying it and piloting it as much as possible to block certain terrain pieces/table quarters/flanks is actually just as usefull. Put the Lychguard in front of your opponent's mechline and watch it either take a very different route/have to make a circle arround a building/losing the Maelstrom objectives or be forced to deal with it. If they get in assault, they're not usually getting tarpitted. A voidreaper, a warscythe minimum and Orikan's staff + the Ap3 swords should make sure you kill what people think they can tarpit you with. Also, deploying very aggressive and chosing to move/run first turn and keeping your Veil if you know you're getting tarpitted is quite a good idea. They're like a piece of terrain with a large footprint that you get to move arround the table. Some games, I'll admit they won't force much or will feel really useless. The Wraiths don't really have that, they do something almost every game, reliably.If lychguard had some shooting, even minimal, even Gauss Flayers, this would be a totally different story.

Here I'd like to give a tip about Lychguard. Deepstrike them on key points of terrain usage/road blocking if possible. Run the same turn they deepstrike to shift them from a circle formation to a line formation so you can take up as much space between two places and block the passage, for max efficiency. At the very least they'll draw fire. If they draw fire, they're becoming efficient, since the points you paid for them are way less than the points of fire they can take. Basicly, draw as much fire as possible by moving them smart. Getting an assault or two is a nice bonus.

EDIT: Sometimes, the fact that opponents are so keen to ignore them will work for you perfectly as they can take up strategic spots and claim objectives for free. Obviously, there's no such thing as "don't shoot that unit no matter what". Sometimes, it's the only answer.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/01/30 02:09:12


Post by: col_impact


Allying in Ork Traktor Kannon Gunz are probably our best answer to Fliers.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/01 15:20:37


Post by: necr0n


- ITC related post -

So, seeing as I've made more than 60 lists this past few months and not being satisfied with any of it, I've come to the conclusion there's absolutely no top list in the current meta Necrons can win against.

All top lists are not invincible in any way. One can beat the other and that's the whole point. There's good and bad match ups. One has to rely on getting matched as much as possible (luck factor) in a tournament with his good matchups and minimise points loss in bad matchups.

In that mind, I've tried making lists that are hard counters to certain meta-lists, but it's impossible in the Necron Codex. We just lack the shooting/force. We can't shoot Flying Demons and we can't outscore them on the board, as we have no anti-psychic and we're not fast or ObSec.

We can't shoot the abundant ammounts of things Gladius/Lion's Blade brings on the table and, obviously, can't outscore the 22+ ObSec units he brings on the table.

We can't obviously outshoot the eldar or taudar or even TAU. Problem is, they have enough shooting to take out anything that's dangerous, like Destroyers or Wraiths and we don't have something to fight back with.

Basicly, we don't have enough Anti-tank to be able to just upset tank-heavy matchups like Knights. We don't have enough anti-infantry to upset infantry heavy matchups. We don't have anti-air to deal with anything flying. We don't have anti-psychic to deal with anything casting spells (summoning etc). We don't have enough assault (or even if we have assault, we don't have good enough means to make it survive enemy shooting good enough and make it to assault). We can't create good enough ObSec lists (no matter how hard you try, Gladius is still better at it) We're mediocre at best on every possible level. That's good for TAC, FLGS level play, especially for beginners, it's a great starting army. There's no real strength and no real weakness.

But, looking at the last few ITC tournaments, most include either 0 or 1-2 necrons players in a total of 80+ players. We're the rarest army, even more so than BA/Sisters/DE etc, and we don't do well. (generally, not getting placed under top 15) The few Necron players that have done well, including that very rare Fennel success have been with a Pylonstar. The Pylonstar is exactly what I've been saying.It has strengths and weaknesses. If placed with more good matchups that bad, it can do well in a tournament setting. But, I remember reading somewhere that Fennel, after his success said it's hardcountered by anything Flying-demon related and an auto-loss. That paired with the fact that flying demons is statistically the most played army of the last tournaments makes the Pylonstar less and less attractive.

So, with that in mind, and because I've made, honestly, far too many lists in this month that have left me unsatisfied, I want to hear your success stories. What's your list, champion? What makes it strong? What matchups do you like the most and what tactics do you like to use versus said winning matchups?

LVO is going to take place this weekend, so we're going to see how Necrons do over there, but before that, I'd like to hear your success stories, guys!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/01 17:54:53


Post by: Anpu-adom


The ITC format is made to mess with all lists. Having the Kill point mission in round 4 makes sure that Battle Company and other MSU players face opponents who are good enough to eliminate them in their weakest mission... etc. Other lists will have similar problems with specific lists on specific missions. You cannot avoid this. You have to be the better player to win through those tough matches.
The top 8 at the LVO will be awesome players... not their lists. That means that you will have better luck playing what you know the best.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/02 00:08:35


Post by: col_impact


Often times the player who wins the LVO isn't the player running the "best list", but rather the strongest list that isn't hated on as the "best list".


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/02 21:38:05


Post by: Requizen


The Necron lists winning big ITC events are Pylonstar, and that's only because nobody is really building around it. FMC Daemonspam might coincidentally counter it, but it's also built to counter darn near everything else. Maybe we'll see a Wraithstar or some other spoiler list in the top 8, but honestly Pylons are probably going to be the only Necrons there imho.

I'd love to be surprised and see a really solid atypical list win, granted.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/02 21:58:25


Post by: necr0n


My prediction would be no Necrons in top 8, at all. But, this conversation kind of got side-tracked! I want to hear about your lists and success stories! Bump!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 14:30:41


Post by: TheMetal


I have never been able to bring myself to actually field the Judicator Battalion in a game. the 405 point price of entry just seems so steep for 11 models glass models. In my meta (weekly meet up is: Tau, Tau, Eldar, Guard and Orks) the three times i have ever tried the lone Stalker its died horribly turn one. I recently was able to pick up two Lychguard boxes on the cheap, with the intent of (with addition of existing sword and shield models) ending up with 7 models of each load out to have options. After reading how highly the prets are rated in this thread how ever im debating giving the formation a chance. I run a full cult in most games i play so i have never felt i lacked str5 attacks, but i suppose the real draw here is the ap 2.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 15:54:40


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Praetorians are Fearless so they can help tie up Wraithknights for a turn if that's truly an issue. They're surprisingly one of our better MC counters.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 16:03:06


Post by: Requizen


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Praetorians are Fearless so they can help tie up Wraithknights for a turn if that's truly an issue. They're surprisingly one of our better MC counters.


In what world do Praetorians tie up Wraithknights? WKs double them out so weaker RP, they have no Invuln, and they're worse at eating Stomps than Wraiths, and they do less or the same amount of damage. Their only upside to Wraiths when fighting WKs is that they can do damage from a range (unless the Wraiths take the overpriced TBeamers).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 16:53:37


Post by: Plainshow


It would take a full game turn for the Wraithknight to remove them, because they don't get swept after the first round. Unless the Wraithknight rolls insanely well, it is stopped for two Assault phases.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 17:02:47


Post by: Irrumare


 necr0n wrote:
I want to hear about your lists and success stories! Bump!


Running a Planetary Onslaught campaign. I'm on the defenders side. Deathmarks are pretty damned useful here.

Tau player has the WL trait that lets him not scatter for DS. Turn 1, they go first, and he foolishly brings that squad in near his table edge. Deathmarks pop JUST enough to force a morale check -- He fails, and a LOT of his dakka flies off the board T1 before his shooting phase.

I also have a lot of new respect for Night Shroud Bombers. Fielded them for the first time (Just used my scythes as counts as). The ability to bomb something with interceptor before it can attack you is nice.

Since Interceptor and Blind and Pinning all occur at the 'end of the movement phase', and it's MY movement phase, I can pick the order, right? So a NSB should be able to blind and/or pin something before it can fire Interceptor weapons?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 17:07:05


Post by: necr0n


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Praetorians are Fearless so they can help tie up Wraithknights for a turn if that's truly an issue. They're surprisingly one of our better MC counters.


Getting a 140 point unit murdered by a 300 point unit in a single turn is not exactly my idea of effectiveness. It's not tying it up, if it's 1 round. They're one of the usefull units you don't care about dying. I'd rather tie him up with scarabs, or even warriors.(obviously Wraiths)

I've been wondering for a while. Everybody seems to think that Riptide Wing is possibly one of the best formations in the game. TAU are almost the only Convinient Ally we have. Most people predict "Random Army + Riptide wing" is going to reach top tables at LVO. I've seen EVERY list in the world, even space wolves allied with the Riptide Wing. How come we don't use Riptide wings? They're just as survivable as we are, so it's good saturation and it's not like they're imbalancing the Threat aggro, due to their toughness being equal to that of Necrons. They bring shooting that we really lack. So, anybody tried doing Necrons + Riptide Wing? I know I would have done it, but I can't find myself 3 Riptides and I don't want to invest in Riptides without actually having TAU to make a legit army. Any experience regarding this?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 17:28:44


Post by: Requizen


 Plainshow wrote:
It would take a full game turn for the Wraithknight to remove them, because they don't get swept after the first round. Unless the Wraithknight rolls insanely well, it is stopped for two Assault phases.


Depends on how big the unit is. A 5 man unit does nothing. A 10 man unit might tie it up for longer (depending on Stomps, because always depending on Stomps), but that's an expensive unit.

Still, I've not tried 10 man Praet units. If the Judicator Battalion wasn't such a big buy in it might be more manageable, but you're paying 405 for minimum units on top of Decurion, 545 for a 10 man, 685 for two ten mans.

Eh, I feel split on it. That big unit will be very durable against a lot of things, but will just be dead against Tau and you're only bringing it as a speedbump for WKs, and they'll just get worn down against Scatbikes before they get in any sort of range. Not even gonna mention D-guns.

Against Deathstars (aka 50% of the meta), they're basically just nothing unless you just play keep away with them all game. Against GSC (the current spoiler/anti-meta army), they're... ok. Most of them go super MSU or have one big blob unit, neither of which an expensive 10 man unit is particularly good against.

Would be nice if you could give them a IC to keep up with, but the DLord is about your only choice. He's ok, but slowing down takes away their big mobility strength and fitting in a 10 man unit and a DLord in a Decurion is really, really tight.

Maybe I'll fiddle with the list a bit. Seems neat but I think a hard fit for the current meta. Would be super good against Battle Company - except for the Grav portions.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/03 19:43:18


Post by: Plainshow


Requizen wrote:
 Plainshow wrote:
It would take a full game turn for the Wraithknight to remove them, because they don't get swept after the first round. Unless the Wraithknight rolls insanely well, it is stopped for two Assault phases.


Depends on how big the unit is. A 5 man unit does nothing.
The goal is sometimes to stall for 1 turn, or prevent a charge from a Wraithknight/Iknight. 5 Praetorians do that admirably. With equal WS, the Knight (either flavor, assuming StrD) hits twice, kills two things (probably). Remove the intervening models between your squad-mates, two stomps, lets assume one is a 6 and can only get 2 Praetorians because you removed the correct casualties earlier. That leaves one guy left with a Str6 hit vs T5, with his 3+/4+++. No Sweep because of Fearless. Not hard, and that's giving some major assumptions to the Knight. It's not that the Praetorians will do anything except stall. The key is that they only stall just for 2 Assaults. The Knight breaks free on your next turn, which is when you can deal with it again. The timing is the thing. Sisters of Silence and Sternguard (1st Co. Strike Force) do this reliably too, and they aren't nearly as tough. A crafty opponent will see the sequence, and may try to Smash the first Assault Phase to break free at the end of your next Assault (free on their turn), but then they gamble that they won't have a bad roll or two, which could see them stuck for a full second turn.

Is it something you want to be doing? Good god no! But it's a fantastic tool to have in your toolbox, when you just need to buy a Turn. Particularly useful when facing a Baronial Court, where the Praetorians were useless anyway, and Wraiths can only hold up so much.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 00:40:37


Post by: necr0n


There are actually a few necron players, I imagined there'd be none, but it's a 400+ people event. I got my hands on every list and there's a lot of interesting ones. A lot of people seem to like to pair the Helldrake formation with 2 Helldrakes with Necrons. (I guess you could say it pairs with Anrakyr too)

Anyway, I'm only going to post Baxter's list for now, since he's the most famous necron player I guess, the veteran and he did very well in round two, tabling a very strong War Convo+knight list.

Baxter's "Nightscythes/Tomb Blades/Pylonstar" ----------- Record: (L/W/L/L/W/W)
Spoiler:

Necron CAD

HQ

Destroyer lord(phase shifter, res orb, solar staff)

Troops

5 Immortals - Nightscythe
5 Immortals - NIghtscythe
11 Warriors

Fast Attack

4 Tomb Blades (particle beamers, shield vanes, Nebuloscopes)
3 Tomb Blades (Particle Beamers, shield vanes, Nebuloscopes)
4 Tomb Blades (TLGB, shield vanes, nebuloscopes)

Heavy Support

2 Sentry Pylons (2 focused Death Rays)

Royal Court

Anrakyr
Obyron
Orikan
Lord (res orb, Phase shifter, Veil of Darkness)

It's 2 Pylons instead of 3 and there's also no Wraith unit. There's also 2 Flyers with msu Immortal squads and a ton of Tomb Blades. I really like it.

I'll post more lists if you want to.


EDIT: Fennell is playing as well, the same list he had in Goldensprue GT.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 00:47:12


Post by: col_impact


Sure, keep posting lists.

Is Alex Fennel in attendance? What's he playing?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 01:24:14


Post by: necr0n


col_impact wrote:
Sure, keep posting lists.

Is Alex Fennel in attendance? What's he playing?


Sorry, my edit was too late. He is playing the same list he played in Golden Sprue cup GT (Pylonstar). There's 14 Necron Players in 406~ players and I'm trying to follow them all. Surprisingly, only 3 of them are playing Pylon Star and you already know the 2. There's some really interesting and different lists, however, and I'll get to posting them very soon.


EDIT: So far, in the first two rounds there's 4 Necrons who managed to pull out ahead. Two very standard pylonstars, 1 very standard Dakkadakka-like Judicator Battaltion-Dcult-Decurion and an amazingly tasteful list that I do not understand, because I haven't seen it play.However, it's stomped 1 Deathguard chaos warband with 60~ zombies and havocs and general good stuff and an amazingly competitive DA Lions Blade with a full company, a scout squad aux and RW strike force with Dark shroud for cover saves and a ton of grav guns on bikes. More on that in a later post for more suspense, after Round 3 is over!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 02:30:29


Post by: Claas


 necr0n wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Sure, keep posting lists.

Is Alex Fennel in attendance? What's he playing?


Sorry, my edit was too late. He is playing the same list he played in Golden Sprue cup GT (Pylonstar). There's 14 Necron Players in 406~ players and I'm trying to follow them all. Surprisingly, only 3 of them are playing Pylon Star and you already know the 2. There's some really interesting and different lists, however, and I'll get to posting them very soon.


EDIT: So far, in the first two rounds there's 4 Necrons who managed to pull out ahead. Two very standard pylonstars, 1 very standard Dakkadakka-like Judicator Battaltion-Dcult-Decurion and an amazingly tasteful list that I do not understand, because I haven't seen it play.However, it's stomped 1 Deathguard chaos warband with 60~ zombies and havocs and general good stuff and an amazingly competitive DA Lions Blade with a full company, a scout squad aux and RW strike force with Dark shroud for cover saves and a ton of grav guns on bikes. More on that in a later post for more suspense, after Round 3 is over!


More on this list that beat DG and DA please.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 03:37:04


Post by: necr0n


Eddi Macmichael's Spyder list just barely lost 5-6 to a Space Marine/Inquisition/Sisters list, but is still doing well. His list follows:
Eddi Macmichael's "Spyderfarm/Scarabdeathstar" ---------- Record: (W/W/L/L/L/L)

Spoiler:

Necron CAD

HQ

Destroyer Lord (Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe, Res.Orb)
Overlord (Voidreaper, Res.Orb)

Troops

5 Immortals + Nightscythe
5 Immortals

Heavy Support

2 Canoptek Spyders
3 Canoptek Spyders
3 Canoptek Spyders

Royal Court

Zahndrekh
Obyron
Orikan
Cryptek (The Solar Staff, Chronometron)

Canoptek Harvest

3 Canoptek Wraiths
8 Canoptek Scarabs
1 Canoptek Spyder

No clue how it works.

UPDATE: In case this was not obvious, this is the "different" list that has crushed the DG and DA Lion's Blade.

EDIT: The only Necron so far with 3 wins is Mike Benton with a Pylonstar that's very similar to Fennell's list. But, all that is very limited to 3 games, as tomorrow there's gonna be another 3, and then the final tables too. So, good luck to the fellow Necrons who send their legions in Las Vegas, we root for you.

Tomorrow, I'm going to post some more lists! Too tired now, due to Americans having LVO in the worst possible time for us europeans!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 03:49:45


Post by: Dew


Sounds like a lot of scarabs?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 12:34:31


Post by: skoffs


Interesting seeing that Pylon-star with only two Pylons.
Wonder what the drop in efficiency would be?
Like, is it still able to get things done and has three just been overkill this whole time?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 13:40:41


Post by: Anpu-adom


 skoffs wrote:
Interesting seeing that Pylon-star with only two Pylons.
Wonder what the drop in efficiency would be?
Like, is it still able to get things done and has three just been overkill this whole time?


I wonder if it isn't so much a drop in efficiency, but more like a decrease in overkill. He basically traded the 3rd Pylon for 2 Nightscythes, right?

Keep up the good reporting! I'm very interested in that other offbeat list that is doing well.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 17:01:46


Post by: skoffs


Well, as far as the Pylon-star itself's actual performance, I wonder how necessary the third Pylon is to the combo.
If it's still able to perform well in that first alpha strike that would free up a bunch of points that could help flesh out the rest of your list (eg. more Tomb Blades).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 17:41:19


Post by: necr0n


 skoffs wrote:
Well, as far as the Pylon-star itself's actual performance, I wonder how necessary the third Pylon is to the combo.
If it's still able to perform well in that first alpha strike that would free up a bunch of points that could help flesh out the rest of your list (eg. more Tomb Blades).



Baxter has generally done well in other tournaments, as well. This time luck was not on his side with matchups, so he's got two losses, so far. But, I believe he can really do better now. Round 4 is coming up and we'll see how things go.

A Necron list that's rocking 2 wins already and is quite different as well (although, might be called cheesy):

Nathan Hovis' "Decurion/Double Harvest/Riptide Wing" ------------- Record: (W/L/W/L/L/L)
Spoiler:

Reclamation Legion

5 Immortals (tesla)
Overlord (Hyperphase Sword)
3 Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes)
10 Warriors
10 Warriors

Canoptek Harvest #1

Spyder
3 Scarabs
6 Wraiths (6 Whip coils)

Canoptek Harvest #2

Spyder
3 Scarabs
6 Wraiths (6 Whip coils)

Riptide Wing

Riptide (EWO, ECPA, HBC, TLSMS, VT)
Riptide (EWO, Ion Accelerator, TLSMS)
Riptide (EWO, Ion Accelerator, TLSMS)


Which answers my previous question about allying Riptide Wing to Necrons, I guess!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 20:02:52


Post by: Irrumare


What, exactly, is a Pylonstar? Obviously 2-3 pylons... What else, and why/how does one use it? Something to give it Relentless?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/04 21:37:17


Post by: necr0n


Irrumare wrote:
What, exactly, is a Pylonstar? Obviously 2-3 pylons... What else, and why/how does one use it? Something to give it Relentless?


Anrakyr gives it relentless while it includes several HQ's too boost its survivability (through Res orbs, saves, solar staffs etc) and HQ's too boost its mobility (through Veil of Darkness). There's also HQ's for counter assualt with warscythes and there's also, usually, a destroyer lord for "Prefered Enemy".

-------------------------------------------------------------

Update on Round 4: The Necrons seem to be falling off. There's not many victories. There are still however two Necron players with 3 out of 4 wins (and a loss). That's Benton's standard Pylonstar list and Hymperys' standard Battalion/D.cult Decurion. Fennell is slightly behind with 2 Wins, 1 Draw and 1 loss. Benton's facing a skitari list up next, Humpherys is taking on Eldar Corsairs and Fennell is going against Eldar. Round 5 is starting any time now!


Here's a list that's different and did decently, that I lost track of after Round 3: (Had Win-Loss-Win)

Stein's "CAD/VoidShield/Helldrakes" -------------------- Record: (W/L/W/--/--/--)
Spoiler:

Necron CAD

HQ

Lord (Solar Staff)

Troops

5 Immortals (Gauss)
5 Immortals (Gauss)
5 Immortals (Gauss)

Elites

5 Deathmarks
5 Deathmarks
5 Triarch Praetorians (Rods)

Fast Attack

4 Canoptek Wraiths
4 Canoptek Wraiths

Heavy Support

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
1 Heavy Destroyer

Fortification

Void Shield Generator

Helldrake Terror Pack

Helldrake (baleflamer)
Helldrake (baleflamer)


EDIT: All 3 of our top Necron players won their Round 5! Our best player (points wise) is currently Humpherys tied for #29 spot! He's playing next game versus a standard Taudar list (scat bikes, farseers, WK, riptide wing, warp hunters)
Fennell is up against a Two riptide wing + 30 warpsiders list. (Just those formations, no hqs, troops etc) Seems like a really good matchup.
Benton's Pylonstar is, unfortunately, facing a Demons list.

Let's see if they can make the top tables! Good luck to our fellow Necrons!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/05 02:23:11


Post by: skoffs


This is excellent stuff,
Thanks for the updates!
(I don't suppose any of these matches have been videoed/uploaded, have they? Would love to see some bat-reps)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/05 04:06:03


Post by: necr0n


Final LVO Necron update:

Benton and Humpherys lost their Round 6 games while Fennell won his. Turns out, Fennell does not let the Necrons down and he's, for one more time, the highest placing Necron. He was arround ~38th place (one loss away from top 8, if he just didn't get matched with that flying demon list!). Well done to all the Necrons who brought their very creative lists and, honestly, did very well. When I get up tomorrow morning, I'll upload one more very interesting list.

Skoffs, I don't have VoDs of those matches or anything, there was two twitch streams(FrontlineGaming_TV and Warhammer chanell) streaming the event, but only one game, in round 2 included Necrons. And it was Baxter's Pylonstar list that tabled the War Convocation. Honestly, a brilliant game, Baxter is a great player. Can't wait to see how the rest of the event pans out,

Just for the record top 8 armies are:
Eldar Corsairs, 2 Demons, Renegades, Tau, War Convocation, Eldar, DA.
Those are not in order


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/05 04:14:00


Post by: Anpu-adom


Yeah... the top 8 has a lot of familiar faces.
Here's the matchups... I think I've got it right.

1. Brandon Grant - Dark Angles vs. 8. Justin Curtis - Chaos Daemons
2. Sean Nayden - Eldar vs. 7. Matt Root - War Conv.
3. Brett Perkins - Chaos Renegades vs. 6. William Abilez - Tau
4. Dan Platt - Chaos Daemons vs. 5. Carter Leach - Eldar Corsairs





Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/05 15:18:59


Post by: skoffs


 necr0n wrote:
Skoffs, I don't have VoDs of those matches or anything, there was two twitch streams(FrontlineGaming_TV and Warhammer chanell) streaming the event, but only one game, in round 2 included Necrons. And it was Baxter's Pylonstar list that tabled the War Convocation. Honestly, a brilliant game, Baxter is a great player.

Bummer,
I've been wanting to see a battle report of a Pylon-star match for a while now, but haven't run across any yet.

At least the top eight spots weren't all dominated by a single army... too bad none of our guys were make it that far, but congrats to the few who did manage a good showing.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/05 16:50:58


Post by: sieGermans


Considering how few Necron players there are in general, for a Necron to make the Top8 there would have to be a combination of skill/luck/meta-listing/more luck.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/06 16:46:52


Post by: Requizen


On the one hand, it's nice to see a mix of armies on the top tables. On the other, it sucks that the meta is so brutal that other armies just have no shot at making it there in the first place.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/06 18:19:23


Post by: necr0n


Requizen wrote:
On the one hand, it's nice to see a mix of armies on the top tables. On the other, it sucks that the meta is so brutal that other armies just have no shot at making it there in the first place.


It's never been really different. Exept, big GT's now, instead of have 1-2-3 armies at the top tables now have more diversity. The meta is very diverse, there's a lot of lists that can reach top potential, it just so happens that Necrons isn't one of them. I'm happy with the way Meta is right now. I'm a little happy that Necrons are not top level, for the first time, since Matt Ward codex, because people have been salty playing versus Necrons, to the point where just playing Necrons was considered a dick move for some reason, even though it's my main army for a long, long time. There's a lot of lists that are really competitive, so if you want to compete in the highest of levels, you can definetely pick an army you like and go for it.Tournament winning usually involves not playing the same list, so just playing something different would be acceptable, I guess. However, there's also being #1 Necron, etc. which is a win and an honor on its own. Necrons, on the other hand are still not "weak". Outside of certain hardcore meta lists, they can compete. Besides that, I find the codex very interesting. It gives a lot of choices to build your necrons army in many ways and still be effective. Destroyers are good, Prets are good, Wraiths are good, Living Tomb formation is good, Flayed ones are good, Wraiths are good, Harvests are good, honestly you can make anything and do decently. We're not a -one list- army.

My biggest issue with the Necron codex and the Necron Decurion, specifically, is the Overlord requirement for both the Royal Court and the Reclamation Legion.If it somehow gets changed to being able to field ANY HQ instead of an overlord, it'd make Necron lists way more efficient. Our best shenanigans come from our named characters, our crypteks, our lords and artifacts. Most of the times I'm making a Decurion, the overlord feels like a huge tax. He's very hard to make use of, since he's a deep point investment with any wargear and he's not doing what he wants (combat) unless if you're also running a lychstar. In any lychstar, Overlords are also not required, since Obyron can do the job more effectively also rocking WS 6 and a 2+ save for less points than a naked Overlord with WS, VoD. If I'm not running a lychstar, I can't find any use for my Overlord from Rec.Legion. (or a points efficent one, that I like) I'd love it if it was possible for a Cryptek to drive my Legions into combat, both because I like them in-game more and because they're my favorite HQ's (and possibly favorite units, fluff-wise). In 5th edition I almost always played with full Courts, my favorite named character is Orikan and I've got a ton of them built and painted and waiting to be fielded!

The Rec.Legion overlord requirement and, especially, the Royal Court Overlord requirement, means that if you want to have a Decurion with any cryptek/lord whatsoever, you must at least have 2 Overlords. And I need Crypteks/Lords, but can't really use 2 overlords in any efficient way, which makes CAD almost the only choice if you want to field Crypteks/Lords. (exept if you can make use of the 1 overlord of the Court, like Pylonstar can use Anrakyr), in which case CAD+Royal Court will work too.

Decurion + CAD, however is way harder, because you have minimum two warrior units, 1 Immortal unit + 2 Troops and that's pretty heavy. Honestly, it'd be great if we could get an Allied Detachment of Necrons, but they're the damn same faction. So, my hands are really tied when it comes to list building and looking for a way to utilise my overlords. Latest invention of mine was giving my Rec.Legion OL a Staff of Light (free), a Veil of darkness and MSS (I had 10 points leftovers, and the 3D6 fear can help my unit survive one turn of assault, before i can teleport out of it with Veil) and putting him in an MSU unit of Immortals in a Nightscythe for Objective hunting, or something similar. But, I feel like it's too many points for an absolute gimmick of a unit with no real purpose or efficiency.

EDIT:
Here's the last list I'll share with you from this year's LVO.

Joseph Duca's "Standard Decurion/Renegade Knight" --------- Record: (L/W/L/W/W/W)
Spoiler:

Necron Decurion

Reclamation Legion
5 Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
Overlord (Solar staff)
3 Tomb Blades ( Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes)

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
2 Destroyers (1 Heavy Destroyer)
2 Destroyers (1 Heavy Destroyer)
2 Destroyers (1 Heavy Destroyer)

Canoptek Harvest
3 Scarabs
Spyder (Gloom Prism)
6 Wraiths

Renegade Knight ( Avenger gatling cannon, avenger gatling cannon)


Which is a little odd, because it looks like his list is 1846 points, so he has room to include 1 Whip coil, but he chose not to. Then again, he did well with it! So, congrats!


EDIT 2: Edited all lists for better format and also noted their W/L record.


EDIT 3: All those new lists from the LVO inspired me to make a very weird list, that I'll play either this or the next week. If anybody wants to check it out or leave a comment it's here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/716863.page#9186014 .


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/06 19:01:28


Post by: D6Damager


Requizen wrote:
On the one hand, it's nice to see a mix of armies on the top tables. On the other, it sucks that the meta is so brutal that other armies just have no shot at making it there in the first place.


Without seeing the games its tough to say if it was poor skill, bad luck, ITC struggles, or a now outdated codex (probably a combination of all of those). It just doesn't seem promising when there's so few represented and the top 2 Necron players came in 38th place and 57th place.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/07 14:12:46


Post by: Draco765


With LVO over with, and based on how the Necron lists ended up being placed does this mean Pylon Star is no longer the way to go?

Is there something new we can put together that will get a higher placing in a major event now that people know how to deal with our new deathstar?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/07 19:05:59


Post by: necr0n


Draco765 wrote:
With LVO over with, and based on how the Necron lists ended up being placed does this mean Pylon Star is no longer the way to go?

Is there something new we can put together that will get a higher placing in a major event now that people know how to deal with our new deathstar?


Currently, it's the strongest list we can go by. It's a very good list versus most armies. It's surprisingly good versus Grav-bikes/centurion etc. It's REALLY good versus Full Companies, it's very good versus Scatbike/Warpspiders, it's good versus tau suits/stealthsuits/riptides possible/piranhas and it's also decent versus other lists like War Con etc. It's not an auto-win, by any means, I'm just saying if you play better, you'll probably win.

The only problem is there's a lot of demon/CSM players out there and a lot of people who are not demons/CSM and still use demons. Those people are trully impossible to win against with a Pylonstar. Doesn't matter if you're the better player or if it's the opponent's first game, this game is going to be an uphill battle. It's very rough to win, and because there's so many people playing those lists, it's very hard to get a "perfect" win ration in a tournament environment.(statistically, you're bound to play some demons, if you're going to play 6+ games) It's not like people "learnt" how to deal with our deathstar, it's merely that it's fallen out of meta because the new demons are taking a gak on it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said, I'd like to ask people who've run Zahndrekh in their lists. How do you use Zahnrekh? What Traits do you like the most? What units do you think he benefits most? What do you like about him?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/07 21:29:42


Post by: col_impact


Allying in a Riptide Wing answers all of Necron's problems.

Allying in a Helldrake Terror pack is also viable.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/07 21:40:10


Post by: Requizen


col_impact wrote:
Allying in a Riptide Wing answers all of Necron's problems.

Allying in a Helldrake Terror pack is also viable.


"A good way to win is to just ally in top-tier units from a different codex"

Is this how Dark Eldar feel?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/07 21:48:03


Post by: col_impact


Necrons add a strong mobile primary core to an army. But an army based entirely on Necron stuff is lacking answers to new problems in the meta.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/08 06:52:21


Post by: skoffs


So if Daemons are a hard counter to Pylon-star, is there anything we can do that is a hard counter to Daemons? (Rock to their scissors... but another list might then be a paper to our rock).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/08 08:18:37


Post by: col_impact


 skoffs wrote:
So if Daemons are a hard counter to Pylon-star, is there anything we can do that is a hard counter to Daemons? (Rock to their scissors... but another list might then be a paper to our rock).


Ideally, you want access to skyfire, fleshbane, monster hunter, instant death, and template weapons/large blasts that get around (ITC) invisibility (which is shoot at BS 1)



Culexus doesn't work anymore since comes the apocalypse allies are not allowed in the ITC anymore.

Ork Tractor Guns work great against flying lists but are pretty much points wasted against lists with no flyers; at least it's dirt cheap.

Riptide Wing brings a resilient and versatile anti-tank and anti-infantry gun platform that you are going to equip with skyfire which is great against every list.

Helldrake Terror Pack is potent against flyers (DftS is not being used in the ITC) and infantry and cheaper than Riptide Wing; it's also got access to a Torrent weapon that gets around jink and invisibility.

Renegades can get you very potent anti-infantry and ok skyfire tanks and your own fearless horde.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 04:08:36


Post by: skoffs


Question:
How bad would a list consisting purely of Destroyer Cult detachments be?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 06:39:41


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 skoffs wrote:
Question:
How bad would a list consisting purely of Destroyer Cult detachments be?

It actually works pretty good. I definitely wish it were a core option of some kind though.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 08:47:04


Post by: col_impact


The best hard counter to Demons available to Necrons I think is a Renegades CAD featuring multiple Renegade Field Artilleries Batteries equipped with Heavy Quad Launchers.

The Heavy Quad Launcher is great against most any army and awesome against Demon summoning spam.

Against Demon FMC you can 'walk' the Heavy 4 Barrage over from a legal target to the FMC and hit it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 15:10:49


Post by: skoffs


So the best way Necrons can take on Daemons is... to not use Necrons.
Awesome.
:/


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 16:09:28


Post by: necr0n


 skoffs wrote:
So the best way Necrons can take on Daemons is... to not use Necrons.
Awesome.
:/


Necrons don't have either the Anti-Air or anti-psychic to bring them down. Another way to battle them is just outnumber them on the table and outscore them. We don't have many/tough/free ObSec units either. (Although, obviously, it's not as bad of a matchup with a Decurion or something like that, compared to the slaughtering of the pylonstar)

In other words, Necrons can't really deal with Demons, very easily. But, D.Eldar can't deal too much with TAU, Tyranids can't deal with D.Eldar, etc. etc.
I'm going to also say, that anything mentioned in the form of allies (like the riptide wing or the helldrake terrorpack) is not an answer to any demon list. It really is not. Otherwise TAU/Taudar/Eldar would be effective against it. No, a single riptide wing's shooting is absolutely zero when talking flying demons. Not to mention the laughable Helldrakes (that you mentioned as Anti-Air, so no baleflamers????). Ork Traktor guns?? Ork Traktor guns are going to bring down what? They're BS3 and 1 shot. 5 of them are more than 150 points. They're going to do absolutely nothing to flying demons. You can't include enough to actually threaten the demons and the more you include, the more useless the entire Orks detachment becomes versus absolutely every other list. Generally, Necrons can't deal with that list by killing it, or something like that. Even with all the allies in the world (That's quite proven, seeing how any other list is incapable of actually shooting the demons dead, even if it doesn't include the Necrons terrible shooting). If you can outmaneuvre or outscore them with some luck, using a lot of tough necrons, that's good. Otherwise, it's not a list you can build to counter. That's what this list does, it breaks the meta. Nothing can deal with it at this point with straight Dakka.

If there's something you should do with your lists to be able to play against demons is ignore better, buy even more useless weapons, bring even more tough models and necron shanenigans (VoD'S) etc. Demons can't remove Necrons, effectively.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 17:45:32


Post by: Irrumare


How do you typically keep the pylons safe? A blob of warriors in front of it?

It's only a 3+ armor save. Kind of easy to take out the army's main gun.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/11 22:30:03


Post by: col_impact


 necr0n wrote:


Necrons don't have either the Anti-Air or anti-psychic to bring them down. Another way to battle them is just outnumber them on the table and outscore them. We don't have many/tough/free ObSec units either. (Although, obviously, it's not as bad of a matchup with a Decurion or something like that, compared to the slaughtering of the pylonstar)

In other words, Necrons can't really deal with Demons, very easily. But, D.Eldar can't deal too much with TAU, Tyranids can't deal with D.Eldar, etc. etc.
I'm going to also say, that anything mentioned in the form of allies (like the riptide wing or the helldrake terrorpack) is not an answer to any demon list. It really is not. Otherwise TAU/Taudar/Eldar would be effective against it. No, a single riptide wing's shooting is absolutely zero when talking flying demons. Not to mention the laughable Helldrakes (that you mentioned as Anti-Air, so no baleflamers????). Ork Traktor guns?? Ork Traktor guns are going to bring down what? They're BS3 and 1 shot. 5 of them are more than 150 points. They're going to do absolutely nothing to flying demons. You can't include enough to actually threaten the demons and the more you include, the more useless the entire Orks detachment becomes versus absolutely every other list. Generally, Necrons can't deal with that list by killing it, or something like that. Even with all the allies in the world (That's quite proven, seeing how any other list is incapable of actually shooting the demons dead, even if it doesn't include the Necrons terrible shooting). If you can outmaneuvre or outscore them with some luck, using a lot of tough necrons, that's good. Otherwise, it's not a list you can build to counter. That's what this list does, it breaks the meta. Nothing can deal with it at this point with straight Dakka.

If there's something you should do with your lists to be able to play against demons is ignore better, buy even more useless weapons, bring even more tough models and necron shanenigans (VoD'S) etc. Demons can't remove Necrons, effectively.


Lots of misinformation here.

1) Ork Tractor Guns are great against flyer lists since every wound is almost a guaranteed grounding. Obviously they are a specialized silver bullet and points spent are wasted points against non-flying lists (which I mention).

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

3) Riptides with HBC and skyfire are a superb AA platform and solid overall against every single list in 40k.
.
.
.
4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 04:27:40


Post by: skoffs


Irrumare wrote:
How do you typically keep the pylons safe? A blob of warriors in front of it?

It's only a 3+ armor save. Kind of easy to take out the army's main gun.

A bunch of ICSs attach to the Pylons to make a Deathstar unit, you don't just let them sit there by themselves.

Though, I wonder,
If they were to FAQ Gauss Pylons tomorrow, letting them fire full BS against group AND flyer units, how would they do in the average army list?
Just "okay" or would they become the new auto-include?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 06:17:50


Post by: Fragile


col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.


Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 06:59:15


Post by: col_impact


Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.


Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"


You can hit FMCs by 'walking' the barrage over from legal targets.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 17:00:51


Post by: Fragile


col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.


Barrage weapons do nothing to FMCs unless you ground them or get first turn, but are good to take out summoned daemons. But they are far from a "hard counter"


You can hit FMCs by 'walking' the barrage over from legal targets.


Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.

Only if they are gliding, which does not require "walking"


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 17:17:09


Post by: Draco765


col_impact wrote:

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.


Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire special rule?
A: No.

(Nov 2016 Rule Book Errata)

The only thing a Heldrake with a Baleflamer can do to something that is Swooping is get d3 Vector Strikes at St7 Ap2 for Zooming over them.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/12 23:35:07


Post by: col_impact


Thanks for pointing out those FAQ items. I was working off the BRB and forgot to check the FAQ.

Renegades remain a solid choice as an inclusion into a Necron list for fighting Demons. Good barrage guns are generally very useful in the ITC and can curtail Demons ability to dominate the Maelstrom points.

It looks like the Riptide Wing is going to be the best option at taking down the flying Demon Princes.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 01:30:39


Post by: luke1705


 skoffs wrote:

Though, I wonder,
If they were to FAQ Gauss Pylons tomorrow, letting them fire full BS against group AND flyer units, how would they do in the average army list?
Just "okay" or would they become the new auto-include?


I've been waiting since 6th edition for them to say that. I would absolutely include the Gauss Pylons (3 of them) in my list tomorrow if they ever changed their mind on that. Unfortunately, it'll require a book update, since Forge World isn't going to change how sky fire + interceptor works.

Or maybe 8th edition will hold something better in store for them. But TBH, I doubt it. GW has a hard enough time selling flyers as is for whatever reason, and sky fire is generally overpriced and under effective as is. Making it cheaper and better won't help GW sell planes, and it seems like they've figured out that rules = sales.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 04:17:55


Post by: skoffs


Well, a simple update in 8th that would allow units to choose between regular and Skyfire at the beginning of the shooting phase could solve a lot of problems... so I guess we can hope for that... maybe.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 08:06:44


Post by: n0xious


So I've been following the thread while making notes of the more successful necron tourny lists and the problems necrons have against flying lists and come up with my own Pylonstar list hoping to address our shortcomings.

Spoiler:
CA 1850 pts

Destroyer Lord (Warscythe,Phase Shifter,The Nightmare Shroud) - 190pts
5 Immortals - 85pts
5 Immortals - 85pts
Sentry Pylon (Death Ray) - 160pts
Sentry Pylon (Death Ray) - 160pts

Royal Court
Anrakyr the Traveller - 160pts
Orikan the Diviner - 120pts
Vargard Obyron - 120pts
Lord (Staff of Light,The Veil of Darkness) - 75pts
Cryptek (The Solar Staff) - 80pts

Riptide Wing
XV104 Riptide (Heavy burst cannon,Twin-linked smart missile system,EWO,Velocity tracker,Bonding Knife Ritual) - 206pts
XV104 Riptide (Heavy burst cannon,Twin-linked smart missile system,EWO,Bonding Knife Ritual,Earth Caste Pilot Array) - 216pts
XV104 Riptide (Ion accelerator,Twin-linked smart missile system,EWO,Advanced targeting system) - 193pts


Though I'm a little unconvinced with only having 2 pylons. Thoughts?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 08:30:04


Post by: skoffs


^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 08:38:18


Post by: col_impact


 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?


Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.


I am wondering why you (n0xious) are choosing to run the Riptide Wing as Farsight Enclaves. The Earth Caste Pilot Array doesn't seem to be worth it considering you get to re-roll Reactor rolls with the Riptide Wing formation, or am I missing something?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 14:28:08


Post by: skoffs


col_impact wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.

But with Anrakyr, Obyron, and the Lord in the unit with only two Pylons, wouldn't the majority toughness be T5?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/13 22:31:15


Post by: col_impact


 skoffs wrote:
col_impact wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
^
The two Pylon version seemed to do well enough.
I'd question why there needs to be a Cryptek carrying the Solar Staff, though. Why not shave off some points and replace him with a Lord?

Using Cryptek instead of Lord allows you to have majority toughness 7 for close combat.

But with Anrakyr, Obyron, and the Lord in the unit with only two Pylons, wouldn't the majority toughness be T5?


True. But he could use the points saved from dropping the Farsight Enclave stuff and use another Cryptek instead of the Lord to carry the veil or drop the D Lord to add a 3rd Pylon.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 03:08:59


Post by: skoffs


Is it worth giving up PE to make sure the unit has T7?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 08:10:23


Post by: spacemarine542


Hey all, I'm going to be running Sentry-star in my next tournament. How does it ignore jink? I've been talking to the TO about the Pylons and he thinks the beam itself targets not the Pylons.

Here's the quote: "Can't hit zooming flyers because it doesn't roll to hit therefore it cannot be used to hit flyers. There is no reason that jink would not be allowed as you are targeting them with the beam. It also should not be able to shoot anything out of line of sight like some people want to do because it is not a blast weapon so it can't affect what it can't see. Not a terrible gun, though, if stuff is in range of it."


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 08:36:14


Post by: col_impact


The beam targets points on the ground and not units. The units that wind up being affected by the beam aren't actually being targeted themselves and therefore cannot declare jink.

Spoiler:
To fire the focussed death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within its range, then nominate a second point on the battlefield anywhere within its range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Draw a straight line (considered to be 1mm in width) between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line.


Spoiler:
When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 10:03:09


Post by: skoffs


I wonder if a writing campaign would have any effect on Forge World?
Like, a mass one.
As in, get hundreds of people across the internet to send in letters, email, and call them on the phone.
"I would like to request a FAQ update to [book name here]. There are many rules that are unclear how they work in relation to other units in the game. The main rule book and codecies all got updates, when can we expect one from Forge World?"
I have a feeling if they get a deluge of people contacting them about it they won't be able to ignore it.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 16:09:27


Post by: Fragile


spacemarine542 wrote:
Hey all, I'm going to be running Sentry-star in my next tournament. How does it ignore jink? I've been talking to the TO about the Pylons and he thinks the beam itself targets not the Pylons.

Here's the quote: "Can't hit zooming flyers because it doesn't roll to hit therefore it cannot be used to hit flyers. There is no reason that jink would not be allowed as you are targeting them with the beam. It also should not be able to shoot anything out of line of sight like some people want to do because it is not a blast weapon so it can't affect what it can't see. Not a terrible gun, though, if stuff is in range of it."


Q: A beam attack does not target a unit – can you still Jink?
A: No.

From the FAQ


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/14 23:21:16


Post by: necr0n




1) Ork Tractor Guns are great against flyer lists since every wound is almost a guaranteed grounding. Obviously they are a specialized silver bullet and points spent are wasted points against non-flying lists (which I mention).

I'd argue that even if you managed to ground something, it'd still be impossible to kill.(Magnus is rolling 2++ with rerolls and the DP's got 4++) There's not enough shooting in Necrons' arsenal to remove big guys. The only real benefit would be you could tarpit. But, honestly, if an opponent with Magnus sees you're running 15 Trakktor Kanons he's going to be really weary of your Wraiths' position and either take them out with other units or just avoid them. Even grounded, Demons can move a lot and they're just as dangerous, even more flexible with movement.

2) Baleflamers can hit FMC just fine.

This has already been answered. Although, arguably, even if they could, their damage would be at best laughable. I'd rather not shoot them to save my opponent the sheer satisfaction of making fun of me.

3) Riptides with HBC and skyfire are a superb AA platform and solid overall against every single list in 40k.

They are a superb AA platform, noone argues that. They're not enough to kill demons, that's what I'm saying. Plus, most people would roll Ion Cannons without Markerlight support (as in a riptide wing outside TAU). Even if you did run 3 HBC, they'd still not be able to kill Magnus and his friends. What I'm saying is, just because they have skyfire (which means they can hit them), doesn't also mean that they can kill them.

4) Finally, the absolute best hard counter to Demon FMC is good barrage guns. Barrage can walk and hit FMC and also do tremendous crowd control against summoning spam. Renegades give Necrons that hard counter and zombies to boot.

This has already been answered.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/15 00:48:30


Post by: col_impact


With Traktor guns or Riptide Wing (HBC AA) the game plan would be to ignore/play around Magnus and remove a DP or more per turn and its associated Warp Charges.

With Renegade barrage guns the game plan is to ignore FMCs and play the mission/maelstrom while massacring any summoned units with barrage.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/25 07:21:26


Post by: skoffs


Anyone else annoyed we didn't get some sort of fix for Trazyn with the Gathering Storm books?
I mean, he made an appearance in Cadia, how hard would it be to give him a formation that made him functionally useful on the table as well?
>:/


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/25 12:56:10


Post by: Klowny


Would be cool if we got our own triumvirate


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/25 13:06:19


Post by: skoffs


The only way we're getting anything new is if they release a supplement for us... which is unlikely.
(though would fix a lot of the issues with the units that are garbage tier, eg. C'tan)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/02/25 13:16:37


Post by: Anpu-adom


I have been told repeatedly that there are only 3 books in this series... though that doesn't prevent them from making more triumvirate boxes (Or releases like Magnus). A 4 box seems almost certain if only to complete the print that comes in the lids. It almost has to be chaos related, so I doubt it would be Necrons.
But everyone left out so far desperately want one.
Necrons... could include the Void Dragon, Silent King and 4 body guards? Either that, or something totally unexpected.
Orks want a new Ghazgkull and Mad Doc.
Tyranids need Doom of Malentai back.
Chaos are talking about a new Abaddon, Fabius BIle, and either Mortarion or Fulgrim. Fulgrim makes sense as a rematch between him and Guilliman seems like it would be popular.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/01 19:54:30


Post by: n0xious


So I have a really bad idea for a list. I present to you the Warriorstar
Spoiler:
Decurion Detachment - 1848pts

Royal Court

Anrakyr the Traveller (1) - 160pts
1 Anrakyr the Traveller

Lord (1) - 90pts
1 Lord: Solar Staff,The Veil of Darkness

Cryptek (1) - 90pts
1 Cryptek: Staff of Light,Chronometron

Illuminor Szeras (1) - 110pts
1 Illuminor Szeras

Reclamation Legion

Nemesor Zahndrekh (1) - 150pts
1 Nemesor Zahndrekh

Immortals (5) - 85pts
5 Immortal: Gauss Blasters

Warriors (10) - 130pts
10 Warrior

Warriors (20) - 260pts
20 Warrior

Tomb Blades (4) - 88pts
4 Tomb Blade: Twin-linked Gauss Blaster,Shieldvanes,Nebuloscope

Canoptek Harvest

Canoptek Spyders (1) - 50pts
1 Canoptek Spyder

Canoptek Wraiths (4) - 160pts
4 Canoptek Wraith

Canoptek Scarabs (3) - 60pts
3 Canoptek Scarabs

Retribution Phalanx

Overlord (1) - 100pts
1 Overlord: Warscythe

Warriors (10) - 130pts
10 Warrior

Canoptek Scarabs (3) - 60pts
3 Canoptek Scarabs

Triarch Stalker (1) - 125pts
1 Triarch Stalker: Heat Ray


WS OL and Royal Court join the 20 man warrior blob providing 4+ RP with rerolls on 1s , +1BS/T (hopefully) from Szeras and an additional +1BS from the Stalker in range. Canoptek Harvest does Harvest things and as long as the OL is alive he can keep spawning Warriors/Scarabs.

Tell me how much this suc- err rocks!

I was thinking of dropping the Harvest for a couple of Ghost Arks and maybe a unit of Deathmarks instead.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/01 20:28:33


Post by: Klowny


If your emphasisng the warriors then GA are a must, it keeps them alive for a lot longer.

Also suggest maybe put the 20 warrior squad in the Retribution Phalanx, that way they come back the next turn all the time?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/01 20:49:06


Post by: n0xious


So something like this?
Spoiler:
Decurion Detachment - 1849pts

Royal Court

Anrakyr the Traveller (1) - 160pts
1 Anrakyr the Traveller

Lord (1) - 90pts
1 Lord: The Solar Staff,The Veil of Darkness

Cryptek (1) - 90pts
1 Cryptek: Staff of Light,Chronometron

Illuminor Szeras (1) - 110pts
1 Illuminor Szeras

Reclamation Legion

Nemesor Zahndrekh (1) - 150pts
1 Nemesor Zahndrekh

Immortals (6) - 102pts
6 Immortal: Gauss Blasters

Warriors (10) - 130pts
10 Warrior

Ghost Ark (1) - 105pts Dedicated Transport
1 Ghost Ark

Warriors (10) - 130pts
10 Warrior

Ghost Ark (1) - 105pts Dedicated Transport
1 Ghost Ark

Tomb Blades (3) - 66pts
3 Tomb Blade: Twin-linked Gauss Blaster,Shieldvanes,Nebuloscope

Tomb Blades (3) - 66pts
3 Tomb Blade: Twin-linked Gauss Blaster,Shieldvanes,Nebuloscope

Retribution Phalanx

Overlord (1) - 100pts
1 Overlord: Warscythe

Warriors (20) - 260pts
20 Warrior

Canoptek Scarabs (3) - 60pts
3 Canoptek Scarabs

Triarch Stalker (1) - 125pts
1 Triarch Stalker: Heat Ray


It's definitely an option, though both lists will require some testing...



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 01:59:49


Post by: skoffs


Why Anrakyr?


(also, for future reference, please post list building in the army list section. Tactics threads are best kept for tactics. This is an exception as you can get tactics suggestions on it)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 08:20:28


Post by: necr0n


Necron Lord cannot have 2 artefacts (Solar staff & Veil of Darkness)

This list does not include any Decurion. For Decurion you need a Reclamation Legion + an Aux Formation. You have no Aux Formation.

There's no point in throwing..about 1000? points in a unit that has 0 offensive capabilities and can get tarpitted by anything for an eternity. If your enemies ignore it, it's at best 24" 20 strength 4 ap5 shots. If your enemies just throw a marine unit in assault, it's gone for the entire game. If your enemies throw something scary (in assault) like another deathstar or just anything that's capable, your unit cannot be fearless forever, they will just be eaten. I'm all for creative deathstars, but yours seems to be a deathstar that's immune to shooting but is no real threat. No shooting threat or assault threat. It can be ignored, tarpitted or even killed in assault. Obviously the best answer to the 1k points you spent on buffing 20 warriors is ignoring said unit, clearing the rest of your list and just eating 20 gauss shots per turn. With 6" movement, that probably won't be too hard.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 08:50:09


Post by: Klowny


That 20 man blob puts out 100 gauss shots a turn, backed by a Stalker they are hitting on 2's, with the gauss special rule. Yes it can be ignored, but it gives pretty good table control (with the GA's)

Sure, it has its weaknesses, but anything thats not in the air is going to get mulched when it comes into rapid fire range.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 09:21:50


Post by: skoffs


Klowny wrote:
That 20 man blob puts out 100 gauss shots a turn.

You may want to check your math, there.

But yes, agreeing with the other comments: a single 20 strong units is not as effective as two units of 10 (if one unit gets tied up, not too big of a deal, you've still got another one free).
In this regard, MSU Warrior spam would fare better than trying to make a "super" warrior unit.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 11:48:26


Post by: Klowny


with the GA's, 20 man blob is 40 shots,
2x GA with 10 warriors is 30 shots a piece, a stalker in the back.
the 20 man come back whenever they fully wipe
plus the repleneshing.
Should bump up the tomb blades for board control.
Fun List


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 11:49:48


Post by: skoffs


Actually, I keep forgetting,
What's the optimum number of Warriors to have in a unit?
(so they won't have to start worrying about tests unless they lose X amount of models)
I know the Destroyer number is 3 or 5, and I think Immortals/other infantry who have a 5 model minimum is 7 (maybe?), but in that Warriors are minimum 10 it throws things off.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 12:45:14


Post by: necr0n


Klowny wrote:
with the GA's, 20 man blob is 40 shots,
2x GA with 10 warriors is 30 shots a piece, a stalker in the back.
the 20 man come back whenever they fully wipe
plus the repleneshing.
Should bump up the tomb blades for board control.
Fun List


What do you mean with the GA's, 20 man blob is 40 shots? They cannot ride GA's, GA's don't increase the number of shots they fire, thus GA's have absolutely nothing to do with the blob's shooting.

I'm commenting on a single blob worth of 960 points and saying the put out 20 st4ap5 shots (laughable) at 24" (almost laughable), while they move 6" a turn. You're saying that somehow they have more, which they don't. Maybe the other units also shoot and that's how the whole list becomes more dangerous. Which is quite fair to say. But that begs for the following comparison:

Warriorstar -------------------------------------------- vs -------------------------------------------- Ghost Ark Warriors
960pts --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 235pts
20 Gauss shots at 24" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20 or 30 shots at 24" (depending if you can get a view from both sides)
limited movement/LoS/cover (difficult to shoot things with 25 model unit) ------------ Very mobile, very agile thanks to open topped rule, easy to shoot from
Brings no support to the rest of the army ------------------------------------------------------- Ressurects D3 Warriors each turn
Resistant to anti-infantry fire ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ignores anti-infantry fire
Almost immune to anti-tank fire ------------------------------------------------------------------- Can Jink anti-tank fire without losing too much in shooting
No assault capabilities ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No assault capabilities
They come back if they get wiped (seriously, why would they get wiped?) ----------- It won't come back if it gets wiped

So, in this 1850 points list, which has 80 or 100 gauss shots each turn (depending on the Ghost Arks facings) only 20 is from the 960points sink. The rest is just the rest of the list. I'm not judging the list as a whole. I believe the rest of the list, exept for the blobstar is good.

Also, as I mentioned, this list is not a Decurion, thus making the warriors quite susceptible to just dying or running. (since they are not fearless, remember?) Toughness 4, 4+ save and 5+ FNP is not what necron durability is reknown for. They are not going to last TAU/Eldar shooting for a single turn. (even though, it would be better if they just shot the 900 points remaining dead and just left your blob there, alone).



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 13:37:34


Post by: Draco765


Also remember that the Stalker does not boost the BS of the Warriors inside of the G-Ark and that the second side of the G-Ark will be Snap Shooting if the Ark moves.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 14:05:07


Post by: Irrumare


Nevermind.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 16:45:36


Post by: skoffs


 Draco765 wrote:
Also remember that the Stalker does not boost the BS of the Warriors inside of the G-Ark and that the second side of the G-Ark will be Snap Shooting if the Ark moves.

There is some difference over whether the onboard Warriors benefit from the Stalker's buff. Is there anything official on it? (even tournament rulings would be good).

Also, shooters onboard Skimmers got FAQ'd. Now not so garbage.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 17:02:56


Post by: Dew


 skoffs wrote:
 Draco765 wrote:

Also, shooters onboard Skimmers got FAQ'd. Now not so garbage.


Link?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 17:14:14


Post by: Ghaz


Dew wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
 Draco765 wrote:

Also, shooters onboard Skimmers got FAQ'd. Now not so garbage.


Link?

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

Third question under 'Jink' (pg. 15).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/02 17:42:29


Post by: Dew


Thanks!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/03 01:01:21


Post by: Draco765


 skoffs wrote:
 Draco765 wrote:
Also remember that the Stalker does not boost the BS of the Warriors inside of the G-Ark and that the second side of the G-Ark will be Snap Shooting if the Ark moves.

There is some difference over whether the onboard Warriors benefit from the Stalker's buff. Is there anything official on it? (even tournament rulings would be good).

Also, shooters onboard Skimmers got FAQ'd. Now not so garbage.


It is in the FAQ under TRANSPORTS:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

I had to remind an Ork player this past weekend he can not call a Waaagh for the turn when the guy that can is inside a Truk...

And I was talking about the two sets of guns on the G-ark. If it moves, only one side gets to fire normal, the other side Snap Shoots.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/03 01:28:48


Post by: EldarExarch


I thought that it just needed line of site, and since the vehicle is open topped that the warriors would benefit from the bonus.

That is truly unfortunate this is not the case.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/03 04:29:29


Post by: skoffs


Oh well, one less reason to take those models.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/17 04:38:36


Post by: skoffs


Alright, BroBots,
How do we deal with Roboute Guiliman?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/17 04:54:52


Post by: Klowny


Well even if he infiltrates up the board and manages a T2 charge, a squad of wraiths will tie him up for quite some time, unless he rolls a hell of a lot of 6's.

Or just kill everything surrounding him? We can outlast almost every army, he cant be a good force multiplier if there isnt a force to multiply?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/17 14:51:28


Post by: Anpu-adom


That's my feeling, too. Feed him some wraiths, he doesn't have hit-and-run. Kill the rest of the army.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/19 22:28:18


Post by: IR0N


I'm new to 40k and Necrons and I just had my first game a few days ago, apparently I came out with a win.

We played 1000 points, I ran a Decurion with a Rec Legion, Second Overlord in Royal Court and a Canoptek Harvest with 6 wraiths and coils. He ran Imperial Fists, 1 sternguard squad in drop pod, 3 tac squads and lord in drop pods and a heavy dec squad sitting way back on his deployment line.

Wow, Necrons are tough!

I flanked with my wraiths and tomb blades and spyder up the side of the board using cover and captures some objectives on the way, I was heading for his dev squad and was aiming to try and keep the spyder somewhere near the middle of the board in cover because I knew that was probably where the later turn fights would end up.

He podded into my 20x warriors and immortals and immediately fired and charged in for close combat. My Necron warriors and Immortals would be such a fight in close combat, he did eventually clear them but that wasn't until about turn 4. They just kept him engaged and it was a battle of attrition. Necron Warriors and Immortals, IMO, are almost the equivalent to marines I was really surprised at how well they did? He always struck first, but I would just reanimate on the 4+ and attack back and slowly widdled him down. He killed a squad of immortals and a squad of warriors with an overlord but I still had my rec legion overlord and a squad of warriors sitting back firing shots at him from an objective. Gauss is really strong? I almost outshot his sternguard.

My tomb blades got podded on and killed, but by then my wraiths literally ate his dev squad in a single turn, turned back and charged the pod that landed on my tomb blades and ate them the next turn and we within the spyders reanimate bubble. I literally killed 8 marines in a single turn with my 5 wraiths on the charge. It was brutal.

Overall I won 11-6.

Necrons are awesome.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/19 22:30:55


Post by: JNAProductions


He charged immediately after Drop Podding? That's against the rules.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/19 22:52:27


Post by: IR0N


Sorry no, I think he dropped and jumped out and shot at me. Then next turn charged me.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/19 22:54:22


Post by: JNAProductions


 IR0N wrote:
Sorry no, I think he dropped and jumped out and shot at me. Then next turn charged me.


That's allowed.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 01:04:36


Post by: IR0N


Rather than starting a new thread, I'll just ask some questions that I have here about Necrons and their rules.

Do I have to run a royal court to make up a decurion?

Destroyer Lords, if I run them with my Wraiths what are the real benefits there? What would you suggest for wargear and abilities? My wraiths really are my star unit, but having them with preferred enemy would just be brutal as well. That's hitting space marines on 4s and wounding on 2s with rerolls of 1. Brutal.

How effective is gauss on space marine armor?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 01:25:49


Post by: Quixeemoto


1) no you don't need to run a royal court in order to take a Decurion, since it is made up of 1 Reclamation legion, at least 1 auxiliary formation and then it may also have a royal court.

2) If you put the destroyer lord in the unit he gives them preferred enemy and it also can be used to slingshot him into combats he might be too slow to reach normally (you will need to use some unit coherency shenanigans here). I don't usually do this in my list, since I like using him more for counter charges and the wraiths are more for soaking things I don't want to fight in combat, so killing them is usually not what I am expecting. I usually give my Destroyer Lord a warscythe and phase shifter, hes 155 points and quite efficient.

3) Gauss makes no difference against a normal marines armor save, since warriors are only ap5. However if you mean the gauss special rule, its also not gonna give you much use against infantry marines have. When you roll a 6 to wound against infantry it doesn't change the wound, it only matters if what you are shooting they could not hurt normally (i.e. warriors firing at a Wraithknight). Against vehicles it still is probably your best way of killing them though, I played against a gladius marine list with 7 razorbacks and 3 other vehicles and killed all of them except for 1 by turn 5.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 10:14:33


Post by: Klowny


How many people run warrior spam? In a decurion, how many warriors is too much? I have 40 at my disposal right now, 2 GA's, 10 immortals and 12 TB. I know it cant kill deathstars and the like, but thats a hell of a lot of gauss shots to put out. Pre-ynnari the demons were ruling the roost by the looks of it comp wise. This feels like it would do well against it? All that psychic D and big birds flapping about wont put much of a dent into a majillionty warriors.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 11:25:23


Post by: Anpu-adom


As durable as our troops are, they aren't our most efficient killers. As a result, most competitive lists are fairly light on the troops slot, taking the minimum and spending points more on the Fast Attack and Elite choices.
Personally, I love me a Silver Tide with Outflanking Flayed Ones... but it isn't a 'competitive' list.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 13:05:52


Post by: skoffs


If you're taking a lot of Warriors, it's usually better to go multiple small units rather than large units. Reason being, it one of the small units gets charged and can't shoot anymore, no big deal, you've got others. If your big unit gets tied up, it's pretty much out of the game.

Personally I'd go lite on troops and go all in with Tomb Blades. Two units of 6 might be alright, but three units of 4 are gonna be pretty damn useful (make sure you give them Scopes. Shields are pretty good, too).

Question about the Royal Court you took in that list, though.
Apart from the second Overlord, what else did you take? (how did you fill your Cryptek and Lord requirements?)


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/20 18:03:45


Post by: Quixeemoto


my 1850 list has 40 warriors and a ghost ark, against a lot of people i've played it makes them waste shots as they will soak a turn of shooting into a warrior unit or two and rarely kill one. I also don't own lots of tomb blades, but i also will take 12 destroyers and between the warriors and destroyers it does quite a lot


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/21 14:26:39


Post by: Akar


 skoffs wrote:
How do we deal with Roboute Guiliman?
Killed him 1x already, he's not Immortal. (He came back, but on the bottom of T5 and couldn't do anything)

- At T6 with 6 Wounds and FNP, it's easy enough to put him down a few.
- He's not an IC, so won't be joining any squads and can always be singled out.
- He's not a flyer, and can't ride in a Transport, so he's not incredibly mobile. Unless he is running, he shouldn't see combat till T3 if you've done it right.

** Like a few other units, Wraiths may not necessarily and answer here. His Melee attacks are S10, with a chance to D. So any failed 3i saves, will outright kill them. -1 to RP if you somehow manage to still have Spyder alive.
** I've read reports where he is somehow infiltrating. Do NOT let this happen to you. He has all of the 'Command' Traits and they're all active. He does NOT have all of the Warlord traits. Rumor mill started this one before the rules came out and it's not been squashed yet for some reason.

Klowny wrote:
How many people run warrior spam? In a decurion, how many warriors is too much? I have 40 at my disposal right now, 2 GA's, 10 immortals and 12 TB. I know it cant kill deathstars and the like, but thats a hell of a lot of gauss shots to put out. Pre-ynnari the demons were ruling the roost by the looks of it comp wise. This feels like it would do well against it? All that psychic D and big birds flapping about wont put much of a dent into a majillionty warriors.
Almost any list I make starts with 50. (20/15/15)

Warriors are the best unit we have, but not when comparing them on their own. They need to have support/combos and no other unit in our codex has as many options.
- D Weapons are really only great against multiple wound models. Yeah, it's a great way to get around RP, but there are only a handful of weapons that hit multiple models.
- Grav Spam is also blunted. Only 1/2 the hits will wound, and we get RP on top of that. Decurion grants the +1 RP AND re-roll 1's. It still hurts, but it really makes the Marine player question the recommendations of the Tactica.
- While having +1 RP from the Decurion is nice, the real benefit is having MTC and Relentless. MTC has more than made up for lack of mobility in most games. Relentless is the real killer, and it's not uncommon to soften up a unit to where Warriors can handle them in CC. Nothing like your opponent rolling up thinking he's safe, taking a ton of firepower to the face, then watch his excitement drain when you assault the survivors denying him the charge. While CC might not be the Warriors strength, they're no pushover. They need to lose combat by 3 to start to sweat being swept and opponents will often need to commit multiple units to accomplish this. Relentless gives you more control on what gets assaulted than players realize.
- Zahndrekh / Szeras are probably the two best characters. Even if you like MSU style, I'd recommend as full of a unit as you can get if you run either of these. If you haven't tried Zahndrekh switching to 'Target Priority' on Turn 2 with 3 blobs of Warriors you should really give it a shot. (I've run Zandy and 100 Warriors because of this!) Often times, it's the only Warlord trait you'll need to finish out a game. In a Decurion, switching to Fearless will turn a 20 man blob into a bigger tarpit. Watching a Death Star, Wolf Star, or for one game, a unit of Dreadnoughts that managed to survive, play 'Whack-a-Warrior' till the game ends is humorous on it's own. Most don't give Szeras enough credit, but in a CAD restricted environment, he really supports Warriors. Bubble RP+, 'Immortal Hubris' WL Trait, and a buff. Even the S5 is decent because a T8 MC will have to think about getting close.
- Triarch Stalkers are also a great way to optimize Warrior spam. Tricky to get into a Decurion effectively because of the Praetorians. In a CAD, where you can split them up it gives you some freedom to spread your forces out while putting out punishing amounts of firepower. Depending on your numbers, I've found this is where the HGC can be the better option. This way you're not tripping over the Warriors who are conveniently bubblewrapping you from Melta range, and once you've got control of the game, they can retreat to the rear objectives while your Warriors advance. Combo with Zahndrekh, and you'll never miss a shot starting on T2. **DDArks are also given a ton of flak for not being great. 2 of those can cover firelanes and force your opponent into the guns of the Warriors.
- The 'too much' depends on if you're dependent on getting a buff from IC/Warlord Traits/Stalkers or not. I've found issues running more than 4 units as the board becomes cramped and you can lose the opportunity to shoot something because you'll be out of range if your opponent decides to throw everything at one side. This is where having Monoliths can come in handy. Not a great tactic because you'd still have to start them on the board, but the option is there. You deploy first, opponent decides to approach from one side to avoid taking 1/3 of your armies shooting, Monolith brings them over anyways. Deceiver Shard 'Grand Illusion' also helps re-position Warriors to foul up your opponents plans.
- They are probably the only unit in the game that has a Dedicated Transport built specifically for them, and they're the only one that can really get some mileage out of the Nightscythe Transport capacity.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/23 07:36:55


Post by: Klowny


Umm so, have we heard the news from adepticon? Pretty much teasers for 8th edition.

One of the big things, the unit that charges gets to attack first, regardless of initiative.

If this is legit......holy hell praetorians just got a huuuuuge buff.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/23 10:23:00


Post by: skoffs


Klowny wrote:
teasers for 8th edition.
One of the big things, the unit that charges gets to attack first, regardless of initiative.
If this is legit......holy hell praetorians just got a huuuuuge buff
Jayzus, they're going to be blenders supreme.
You got a link for that info?
[edit]
never mind
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/23/warhammer-40000-news-from-adepticon/

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Thematic armies will be rewarded, movement value is coming back, armour save modifiers, and charging units get to strike first.

And Morale will work the same as AOS.

Holy hell! 8th Ed. Here we come!

Movement values - that's one I'm stoked about.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/23 13:11:40


Post by: Anpu-adom


A lot of things will change... individual rules on the data sheets (almost has to be, if they are going to individual movement characteristics).
Flayed Ones with a different movement than Warriors and going first in assault? Heck yeah!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/23 15:41:55


Post by: Fragile


If true, this is a rehash of Sigmar.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 02:48:44


Post by: Anpu-adom


Fragile wrote:
If true, this is a rehash of Sigmar.


Like always, they will bring things over. I still think that Sigmar will be the 'easy' version... 40k the middle version, and 30k being the 'elite' version of the rules.
It may be good to think about things that won't change... I'm pretty sure that characters in units isn't going to go away, for instance.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 05:09:28


Post by: skoffs


So long as they include the rules for Always Strikes First/Last, I'll be okay with bringing some of those AoS stuff over.
...
SOME.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 05:53:28


Post by: Ceann


So I don't have any Necron stuff but I was looking to put together 1850 for a friend to use.

From what I have gathered the decurion formations are quite flexible and allow you to run a lot of different lists and I was just looking to identify some of the cornerstones that make for a good list.

The two I have put together are legion, canoptek harvest, royal court - which I take to be the rather standard list with a lord star on like immortals or lychguard or something.

The other I put together was warrior spam on nightscythes, deathbringer flight and royal court to get crypteks to put with the warriors.

Not really sure which I should put together but I think I am leaning toward the flyer list. Both are decurions and I just want to make sure that I don't miss anything that is considered to be of key tactical importance but some people seem to be of the opinion that you have to almost intentionally make a bad list for necrons at their current incarnation.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 07:10:15


Post by: skoffs


Unless you have a very specific use for the extra Overlord+Lord(s)+Cryptek(s) you really shouldn't just throw a Royal Court into a Decurion build.
Being the case, it'd be almost useless in that Flyer list.
It'd be slightly useful in a list that has Lychguard... but I would much rather use those points on things that will be more useful, eg. Tomb Blades.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 07:20:48


Post by: Ceann


So for the flyer list should I just cut it entirely and dump those points into increase my warrior/tomb blade counts?

I cut the court.

Got Zandrekh, 1x5 lychguard /w hyperphase, dispersion, 3x10 warriors /w nightscythes 1x9 immortals 1x6 tomb blades /w beamer, vanes, looms and 1x3 doom scythes.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 12:50:47


Post by: skoffs


- What is Zahndrekh going to be doing?
- What is the point of those Lychguard?
- Why so many Immortals?
- Do you have any more Tomb Blades?
- The Doom Scythe formation is... kinda meh compared to the infantry based ones, but if you're going 6 flyers maybe it's not so bad.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 13:48:56


Post by: Anpu-adom


skoffs, as always, has the right of things... You need to have a purpose for each unit or formation. For example, I like running my warriors in Ghost Arks because I love the amount of shooting that it gives me. They take the and hold the midfield while my teleport my lychstar as a backfield threat. Tesla Immortals hold backfield objectives.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 14:59:18


Post by: Ceann


Zahndrekh starts on the board with the guards as well as the doomblades.
The guards were so he doesn't get blasted off the board standing by himself. I suppose I could ditch the guard and just stand him with the immortals.

He is going to be using hyperlogical strategist to improve all my reserve rolls for the flyers. After that will depends on what else is going on, likely he will go after any opposing units on my backfield.

I took the immortals because they are required, I went above 5 because I didn't know where to put the points. So what should I do with those points? More warriors?

Only have 6 tomb blades but it wouldn't be an issue to get more.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 20:23:59


Post by: skoffs


Stick Zahndrekh with 5 Immortals. Use leftover points from the extra 4 dropped Immortals to get far superior Tomb Blades.
Lychguard don't sound necessary. Drop and put points into more Tomb Blades.
Tomb Blades Tomb Blades Tomb Blades.
Tomb Blades.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 21:00:47


Post by: Klowny


TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMB BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADES


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/24 22:44:20


Post by: Ceann


Should I make the tomb blades MSU or is it better to have a giant pile of them?
Had to get rid of a beamer on 2 since i had 10 extra points and made another warrior. 1849 now.

Nemesor Zahndrekh

11 Warriors
1 Night Scythe

10 Warriors
1 Night Scythe

10 Warriors
1 Night Scythe

5 Immortal: Gauss Blasters

5 Tomb Blade: Particle Beamer,Shieldvanes,Shadowloom

1 Tomb Blade: Twin-linked Gauss Blaster,Shieldvanes,Shadowloom
4 Tomb Blade: Particle Beamer,Shieldvanes,Shadowloom

1 Tomb Blade: Twin-linked Tesla Carabine,Shieldvanes,Shadowloom
4 Tomb Blade: Particle Beamer,Shieldvanes,Shadowloom


1 Doom Scythe
1 Doom Scythe
1 Doom Scythe


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/25 09:12:32


Post by: skoffs


MSU Tomb Blades are best.
Three units of 5 would be good.
Don't bother with Tesla. Gauss is the best bet.
Tesla WOULD be good with the Immortals, tho, as they're gonna want to hang back.
Maybe drop that 11th Warrior and add a 6th Immortal instead, to give the unit a slight bump in survivability.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/25 15:10:42


Post by: necr0n


 skoffs wrote:
MSU Tomb Blades are best.
Three units of 5 would be good.
Don't bother with Tesla. Gauss is the best bet.
Tesla WOULD be good with the Immortals, tho, as they're gonna want to hang back.
Maybe drop that 11th Warrior and add a 6th Immortal instead, to give the unit a slight bump in survivability.



11 warriors + 5 immortals is better for break tests ,I think , and depending on how you actually play those Immortals, I'd say it's more worth it to go for that setup and not add any extra Immortal. I'd also recomend Tesla on them, but the difference is really negligible, so just go for what you modeled/like.

If you're going for 15 Tomb Blades, why not switch some weapons arround? Gauss Blasters are really good on them with AP4 and ignores cover. (Removes pesky marker lights with great efficiency) Maybe 2 units with Particle Beamers (since you like them so much) and 1 unit of Gauss blasters?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/25 16:45:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Particle Beamers are bad because they're small blasts.

I'm personally a fan of doing two squads of five with blasters, Scopes, and Vanes, and then a single squad of three with Tesla, Looms, and Vanes solely for objective catching.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/25 20:15:40


Post by: skoffs


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Particle Beamers are bad because they're small blasts.
That depends on what you're facing.
It's great for blobs. Not so much for MSU-ish lists.

I like running a ration of 3:1 Gauss to Beamers.
One blast in case a few models are clumped up, then three Gauss to clean up the rest.
Has been working out nicely for me. YMMV.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/27 16:28:06


Post by: Requizen


Ceann wrote:
Zahndrekh starts on the board with the guards as well as the doomblades.
The guards were so he doesn't get blasted off the board standing by himself. I suppose I could ditch the guard and just stand him with the immortals.

He is going to be using hyperlogical strategist to improve all my reserve rolls for the flyers. After that will depends on what else is going on, likely he will go after any opposing units on my backfield.

I took the immortals because they are required, I went above 5 because I didn't know where to put the points. So what should I do with those points? More warriors?

Only have 6 tomb blades but it wouldn't be an issue to get more.


Unless you're really impatient to finish modeling everything, don't build anything with different options for a few months. Who knows what the next edition will bring.

 skoffs wrote:
So long as they include the rules for Always Strikes First/Last, I'll be okay with bringing some of those AoS stuff over.
...
SOME.


AoS's system is actually awesome and I'd be ok with most of it coming. I can understand them leaving out turn priority, but honestly I think 40k people would get used to it as well.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/27 22:48:31


Post by: Anpu-adom


Yes, got my first game of AoS... used my Necrons as Flesh Eater Courts. Hell of a lot of fun.
Turn priority was exciting, but not breaking. IT was a bit hard remembering to do it, and it didn't cause me to win or to lose.
Rending and shooting into and out of combat was great. I can see warriors doing well with our gauss weapons and our toughness in close combat. The moral system would also be great for us.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 11:40:51


Post by: skoffs


Something tells me everyone who built their guys as Lychguard instead of Praetorians is going to be kicking themselves, come summer.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 11:58:11


Post by: Anpu-adom


 skoffs wrote:
Something tells me everyone who built their guys as Lychguard instead of Praetorians is going to be kicking themselves, come summer.


All the reason to buy more, right?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 12:51:51


Post by: Requizen


 skoffs wrote:
Something tells me everyone who built their guys as Lychguard instead of Praetorians is going to be kicking themselves, come summer.


That's why I have both

In reality, I hope they make Lychguard into the premier bodyguards they're supposed to be. That's why I built the shields in the first play tbh.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 15:21:52


Post by: Odrankt


Ceann

I would recommend your friend to try this list;

CAD

HQ
Destroyer Lord w/ Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Staff of Light

Oirkan the Diviner

Troops

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

Fast Attack

3 C.Wraiths w/ coils

3 C.Wraiths w/ coils

Decurion

Reclamation Legion

Nemesor Zahndrekh

4 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope 2 w/ Gauss and 2 w/ Particles Blaster

4 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope 2 w/ Gauss and 2 w/ Particles Blaster

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

10 Warriors in Ghost Ark

10 Warriors in Ghost Ark

10 Warriors

Auxilliary

5 Deathmarks

that is a total of 1842 pts and has a lot of diversity.

Make Nemesor the Warlord so you can pick your Warlord traits from turn 2 on wards. I would also put him and his unit in DSR and come in turn 2 by using the Veil of Darkness..

Put all the HQs (D.Lord, Orikan, Nemesor) with the warriors and use he D.Lords Veil of Darkness to DS the whole unit and have a pretty good gun blob with a good bit of buffs. then use the blob to transport Nemesor to make the most of his abilities.

Use the GAs to move the warriors across the board and doing lots of shooting damage. Jink the GA for +1 to your save meaning its gun will be snap-shooting but, the warriors still shoot as normal. That makes them more survivable and dangerous.

use the Immortals to either hold objectives or to hold your line and prevent your opponent from flanking you and taking control of your side.

Tomb Blades are great for destroying blobs, getting objectives that are far away and getting line breaker before the game ends. The Particle Beamer is the best weapon to take for the TBs. Its a blast weapon and its strength 6. It will do a lot of damage. Then use the gauss to take away any remaining units that the blasts didn't destroy.

Use the C.Wraiths as your CC and just have them hold up anything that looks dangerous or to destroy weak and small units. Can't go wrong with 3+/3++.

Deathmarks can DS when your opponents units DS and they can also shoot during your enemies turn. They also wound on a 2+ on the 1st turn they DS, even against GMC.




Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 15:50:44


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Give that Destroyer Lord a Warscythe.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 17:12:41


Post by: Odrankt


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Give that Destroyer Lord a Warscythe.


If he is in a shooty unit what would be the point as he won't be going into CC? Orikan also has a Scythe but his roll is for 4+ RP (even against instant death) and re-rolling 1s for saves. I can use Orikan to protect my unit if it is to go into CC. Destroyer Lord is to give the unit Preferred Enemy so that its a blob of shooting doom with him included.

I suppose having 2 units with Scythes might be good for protecting the shooty unit in CC but I think staff of light will be better with its 3 strength 5 ap 3 hits.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 17:18:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Odrankt wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Give that Destroyer Lord a Warscythe.


If he is in a shooty unit what would be the point as he won't be going into CC? Orikan also has a Scythe but his roll is for 4+ RP (even against instant death) and re-rolling 1s for saves. I can use Orikan to protect my unit if it is to go into CC. Destroyer Lord is to give the unit Preferred Enemy so that its a blob of shooting doom with him included.

I suppose having 2 units with Scythes might be good for protecting the shooty unit in CC but I think staff of light will be better with its 3 strength 5 ap 3 hits.

Um that list has two units of Wraiths. What else is getting the most from that Preferred Enemy? The Warriors? Please.

The Destroyer Lord has melee stats, and was meant for melee. Same with the reason you see Orikan going into mostly melee deathstars (and the occasional Pylonstar).


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 17:36:30


Post by: Odrankt



Um that list has two units of Wraiths. What else is getting the most from that Preferred Enemy? The Warriors? Please.

The Destroyer Lord has melee stats, and was meant for melee. Same with the reason you see Orikan going into mostly melee deathstars (and the occasional Pylonstar).


Fair point. But if you put the D Lord in with the wraiths you will slow them down to half their movement (not including the JSJ from the D Lord). Would be better in a singular unit of 6 Wraiths. Also, Wraiths don't have RP and Warriors have a 4+ re-rolling ones as well as a res orb to make sure they survive bad RP.

Warriors with PE can be a very dangerous unit. If within rapid-fire thats 20 shoots re-rolling misses for hits. That can destroy a good chunk of units. Plus the D Lord has the Veil of Darkness and res orb. The only thing letting the unit DS snd survive bad RP rolls.

I usually run Orikan in a Lynchguard for an Orikanstar but i play the above list as it is a lot if fun but all well rounded.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 17:40:43


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


It is not hard to slingshot the Lord with some practice. It is always done for a reason. Would you believe I still use Typhus with MoN spawn on occasion?

Also 10 Warriors are much less dangerous than 3 Wraiths when it comes to handing out Preferred Enemy. This isn't some preference thing, this is basic reasoning.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 18:13:34


Post by: sieGermans


Odrankt wrote:

Um that list has two units of Wraiths. What else is getting the most from that Preferred Enemy? The Warriors? Please.

The Destroyer Lord has melee stats, and was meant for melee. Same with the reason you see Orikan going into mostly melee deathstars (and the occasional Pylonstar).


Fair point. But if you put the D Lord in with the wraiths you will slow them down to half their movement (not including the JSJ from the D Lord). Would be better in a singular unit of 6 Wraiths. Also, Wraiths don't have RP and Warriors have a 4+ re-rolling ones as well as a res orb to make sure they survive bad RP.

Warriors with PE can be a very dangerous unit. If within rapid-fire thats 20 shoots re-rolling misses for hits. That can destroy a good chunk of units. Plus the D Lord has the Veil of Darkness and res orb. The only thing letting the unit DS snd survive bad RP rolls.

I usually run Orikan in a Lynchguard for an Orikanstar but i play the above list as it is a lot if fun but all well rounded.


Important point here: even excluding JSJ, Wraiths are only slowed two turns later after the DLord joins, and only if they have not managed to charge something (I.e., the desired charge target must be 24+2d6 inches away). This is due to unit coherency and the legal base sizes offering an additional 13.5 inches of Congo line potential over and above base DLord movement distance.

It is an error to assume you will ever reasonably slow your Wraiths down. And even if in some niche case you might, you may detach the DLord at the start of that movement phase anyway.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 18:34:05


Post by: Odrankt


I guess I will have to put this idea to use and see how effective it can be.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Important point here: even excluding JSJ, Wraiths are only slowed two turns later after the DLord joins, and only if they have not managed to charge something (I.e., the desired charge target must be 24+2d6 inches away). This is due to unit coherency and the legal base sizes offering an additional 13.5 inches of Congo line potential over and above base DLord movement distance.

It is an error to assume you will ever reasonably slow your Wraiths down. And even if in some niche case you might, you may detach the DLord at the start of that movement phase anyway.


So if I join a D Lord w/ wraiths I will only be slowed down for 2 turns? Thats not to bad. maybe its more viable then I 1st thought.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 19:01:32


Post by: sieGermans


Yea:

Turn 1: Movement
Move lead Wraith the full 12
Move the second Wraith 12 - 3.5 = 8.5
Move the third Wraith 8.5 - 3.5 = 5
Move DLord 6

If you have more than the minimum Wraith squad size, you can stagger to choice, or front load more of them at the lead.

Turn 1: Shooting
Move the combined unit D6 (minimum 1)

Turn 1: Assault (assuming no charge)
Move the DLord 2d6 (minimum 2)

Summary at the end of Turn 1:
Lead wraith(s) are at least 13 inches from starting position. The DLord is a minimum of 9 inches from starting position.

From here, if you roll horrifically poorly for your JSJ rolls, your DLord will only have moved 9 more inches. Accordingly, in Turn 3, your lead Wraith will have to move ca. 3.5 inches less than normal, if you only run minimum squad size of 3 Wraiths.

This also assumes that after 39 inches of movement, you still haven't reached your target which is not impossible versus certain opponents, but highly unlikely.



Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 19:21:38


Post by: skoffs


Odrankt wrote:
Ceann
I would recommend your friend to try this list;
Spoiler:

CAD

HQ
Destroyer Lord w/ Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Staff of Light

Oirkan the Diviner

Troops

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

Fast Attack

3 C.Wraiths w/ coils

3 C.Wraiths w/ coils

Decurion

Reclamation Legion

Nemesor Zahndrekh

4 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope 2 w/ Gauss and 2 w/ Particles Blaster

4 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope 2 w/ Gauss and 2 w/ Particles Blaster

5 Immortals w/ Gauss

10 Warriors in Ghost Ark

10 Warriors in Ghost Ark

10 Warriors

Auxilliary

5 Deathmarks

that is a total of 1842 pts and has a lot of diversity.

Make Nemesor the Warlord so you can pick your Warlord traits from turn 2 on wards. I would also put him and his unit in DSR and come in turn 2 by using the Veil of Darkness..

Put all the HQs (D.Lord, Orikan, Nemesor) with the warriors and use he D.Lords Veil of Darkness to DS the whole unit and have a pretty good gun blob with a good bit of buffs. then use the blob to transport Nemesor to make the most of his abilities.

Use the GAs to move the warriors across the board and doing lots of shooting damage. Jink the GA for +1 to your save meaning its gun will be snap-shooting but, the warriors still shoot as normal. That makes them more survivable and dangerous.

use the Immortals to either hold objectives or to hold your line and prevent your opponent from flanking you and taking control of your side.

Tomb Blades are great for destroying blobs, getting objectives that are far away and getting line breaker before the game ends. The Particle Beamer is the best weapon to take for the TBs. Its a blast weapon and its strength 6. It will do a lot of damage. Then use the gauss to take away any remaining units that the blasts didn't destroy.

Use the C.Wraiths as your CC and just have them hold up anything that looks dangerous or to destroy weak and small units. Can't go wrong with 3+/3++.

Deathmarks can DS when your opponents units DS and they can also shoot during your enemies turn. They also wound on a 2+ on the 1st turn they DS, even against GMC.

- A Destroyer Lord attached to 10 Warriors is a waste.
- Change that Tomb Blade load out to 1x Beamer/3x Gauss and you have a better pocket knife unit.
- Orikan doesn't really seem to be doing anything super useful.
- Might not need Zahndrekh either.
- Do you really need a CAD in addition to a Decurion in this list?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 19:44:44


Post by: Requizen


Disagree on one point - a DLord attached to Warriors is a fine unit. He tanks AP4 or worse shots, they're 10 extra wounds (more if you count RP) for him. Gauss Flayers with PE aren't even bad. Once they get close, he can peel off and fight things solo (tough enough to do so), and if he stays with them, they bog down units super hard while he scythes through them (though yeah give him a Warscythe).

10 Warriors with a DLord beats every other infantry unit and is a serious threat to higher tough units with Gauss + PE, and vehicles since you're already Gauss, but now you also reroll 1s to hit. And then he can charge with a Warscythe after.

It's no Deathstar and I wouldn't put other ICs with it other than maybe Orikan for durability trolling, but as a midfield unit it's actually quite useful.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 19:54:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Why do you need to tank shots for frickin Warriors? That's the first hole in your logic.

S4 shots are not impressive with PE, and against vehicles you're not even getting half a glance more.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 20:18:51


Post by: Odrankt



- A Destroyer Lord attached to 10 Warriors is a waste.
- Change that Tomb Blade load out to 1x Beamer/3x Gauss and you have a better pocket knife unit.
- Orikan doesn't really seem to be doing anything super useful.
- Might not need Zahndrekh either.
- Do you really need a CAD in addition to a Decurion in this list?


- As I stated, I play this list for fun not to be competitive. It might be a waste to put the D Lord in a unit of warriors but its fun to play.
- Recently I have been against a lot if Tzeench (mainly Magnus) so I up against a lot of blue/pink horrors so extra particle beamers are for that reason. However, I do agree with your logic
- Zahndrekh is 2+/4++ and Orikan is +1 RP and re-roll 1s for saves so... Zahndrek should never die(hopefully). I have tried this tactic before. But again this list is forfun. Not competitive.
-The ability to pick your warlord trait every turn is helpful depending on what cards you have and what you are facing.
- CAD is so I could have 2 units of immortals, 2 HQs and 2 Wraiths. I could have done it through the Decurion but 2 units of Immortals,a Royal Court and a Canoptek Harvest is 1) more expensive then the CAD and 2) I can only access the Destroyer Lord through the Destroyer cult.
I thought it made more sense doing a CAD.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 20:38:10


Post by: Requizen


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do you need to tank shots for frickin Warriors? That's the first hole in your logic.

S4 shots are not impressive with PE, and against vehicles you're not even getting half a glance more.


Tanking means more than keeping the unit safe. It means ignoring wounds. I run mine with 2+, and essentially anything shot at the unit is ignored if it's not AP2, and if it is, it just gets shrugged off on negligible Warriors.

Not everything in the game is Wraithknights and Imperial Knights. PE Gauss Flayers do very well against MSU Marines (aka Battle Company, one of the most popular builds right now), Genestealer Cults (an army that most top level players agree is nearly OP but no one wants to build), and Jetbikes if they get in range (IC with Veil, or just walking through fire because 2+/RP/Orikan).

It's not a power unit by any means, but run it against anyone who isn't doing cheese bull like Riptide spam or Deathstars and you'll find that putting a kitted DLord with Warriors is quite useful.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 20:42:09


Post by: Odrankt


Requizen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do you need to tank shots for frickin Warriors? That's the first hole in your logic.

S4 shots are not impressive with PE, and against vehicles you're not even getting half a glance more.


Tanking means more than keeping the unit safe. It means ignoring wounds. I run mine with 2+, and essentially anything shot at the unit is ignored if it's not AP2, and if it is, it just gets shrugged off on negligible Warriors.

Not everything in the game is Wraithknights and Imperial Knights. PE Gauss Flayers do very well against MSU Marines (aka Battle Company, one of the most popular builds right now), Genestealer Cults (an army that most top level players agree is nearly OP but no one wants to build), and Jetbikes if they get in range (IC with Veil, or just walking through fire because 2+/RP/Orikan).

It's not a power unit by any means, but run it against anyone who isn't doing cheese bull like Riptide spam or Deathstars and you'll find that putting a kitted DLord with Warriors is quite useful.


Requizen knows whats up! 100% agree!


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/28 23:45:58


Post by: col_impact


Nobody is saying that putting a D Lord with Warriors isn't useful, only that it is not optimal.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 00:02:04


Post by: JustaerinAtTheWall


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is not hard to slingshot the Lord with some practice. It is always done for a reason. Would you believe I still use Typhus with MoN spawn on occasion?

Also 10 Warriors are much less dangerous than 3 Wraiths when it comes to handing out Preferred Enemy. This isn't some preference thing, this is basic reasoning.


I think Warriors have some merit here. While I agree rerolling fails on Wraiths is very powerful, pumping out 20 shots rerolling fails is still very good. Especially when you consider Gauss giving them glances on 6+, it could potentially wipe a vehicle within turn.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 01:01:14


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Requizen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do you need to tank shots for frickin Warriors? That's the first hole in your logic.

S4 shots are not impressive with PE, and against vehicles you're not even getting half a glance more.


Tanking means more than keeping the unit safe. It means ignoring wounds. I run mine with 2+, and essentially anything shot at the unit is ignored if it's not AP2, and if it is, it just gets shrugged off on negligible Warriors.

Not everything in the game is Wraithknights and Imperial Knights. PE Gauss Flayers do very well against MSU Marines (aka Battle Company, one of the most popular builds right now), Genestealer Cults (an army that most top level players agree is nearly OP but no one wants to build), and Jetbikes if they get in range (IC with Veil, or just walking through fire because 2+/RP/Orikan).

It's not a power unit by any means, but run it against anyone who isn't doing cheese bull like Riptide spam or Deathstars and you'll find that putting a kitted DLord with Warriors is quite useful.

You're giving the Destroyer Lord Majority T4. This is not tanking wounds. You turned him into a TEQ with a mildly better FNP. Strike one.
You already, with the Ghost Arks that are being ran here, glancing vehicles to death by getting readily into Rapid Fire range. Your squad of 10 Warriors and Lord are not going to get there. Strike two.
Against MSU Genestealer Cults, you already do enough damage on Overwatch and cam already potentially charge them with Relentless units you might have. Strike three.

Strike four doesn't need to be said, but more importantly you're spending 100+ points to do this. If you want a supporting element for the squad, you can get a mini Lord or Cryptek and spend significantly less points to boost their power. Meanwhile, you won't be wasting the Destroyer Lord's capabilities by doing this.
An equivalent for Marines would be throwing a Chaplain in a Tactical Marine squad or Sternguard squad. Yeah he helps, but is he REALLY doing much?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is not hard to slingshot the Lord with some practice. It is always done for a reason. Would you believe I still use Typhus with MoN spawn on occasion?

Also 10 Warriors are much less dangerous than 3 Wraiths when it comes to handing out Preferred Enemy. This isn't some preference thing, this is basic reasoning.


I think Warriors have some merit here. While I agree rerolling fails on Wraiths is very powerful, pumping out 20 shots rerolling fails is still very good. Especially when you consider Gauss giving them glances on 6+, it could potentially wipe a vehicle within turn.

Like I already said, with ghost Arks you're already getting into range to do that. The squad we are talking about is not going to do that any time soon.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 01:20:33


Post by: col_impact


 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is not hard to slingshot the Lord with some practice. It is always done for a reason. Would you believe I still use Typhus with MoN spawn on occasion?

Also 10 Warriors are much less dangerous than 3 Wraiths when it comes to handing out Preferred Enemy. This isn't some preference thing, this is basic reasoning.


I think Warriors have some merit here. While I agree rerolling fails on Wraiths is very powerful, pumping out 20 shots rerolling fails is still very good. Especially when you consider Gauss giving them glances on 6+, it could potentially wipe a vehicle within turn.


Preferred Enemy does not mean re-roll fails. It means re-roll ones. With regards to wounding we see a difference in the significance of PE between Wraiths and Warriors. For Wraiths with Str 6 that very often indeed means re-roll fails but for Warriors that is definitely not often the case as it would be only against toughness 2 targets.

This is why Preferred Enemy is better suited with Wraiths.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 01:24:19


Post by: Requizen


col_impact wrote:
Nobody is saying that putting a D Lord with Warriors isn't useful, only that it is not optimal.


There is no optimal for Necrons right now. We can't keep up with Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial cheese, GSC, and Daemon/Magnus. I stopped even worrying about making competitive lists for Crons.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 01:30:24


Post by: JustaerinAtTheWall


col_impact wrote:
 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is not hard to slingshot the Lord with some practice. It is always done for a reason. Would you believe I still use Typhus with MoN spawn on occasion?

Also 10 Warriors are much less dangerous than 3 Wraiths when it comes to handing out Preferred Enemy. This isn't some preference thing, this is basic reasoning.


I think Warriors have some merit here. While I agree rerolling fails on Wraiths is very powerful, pumping out 20 shots rerolling fails is still very good. Especially when you consider Gauss giving them glances on 6+, it could potentially wipe a vehicle within turn.


Preferred Enemy does not mean re-roll fails. It means re-roll ones. With regards to wounding we see a difference in the significance of PE between Wraiths and Warriors. For Wraiths with Str 6 that very often indeed means re-roll fails but for Warriors that is definitely not often the case as it would be only against toughness 2 targets.

This is why Preferred Enemy is better suited with Wraiths.

You're correct. I mixed-up my rules, does bring Warriors down a bit.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 01:41:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Requizen wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Nobody is saying that putting a D Lord with Warriors isn't useful, only that it is not optimal.


There is no optimal for Necrons right now. We can't keep up with Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial cheese, GSC, and Daemon/Magnus. I stopped even worrying about making competitive lists for Crons.

Then don't bother trying to give advice to try and optimize a list. Otherwise there's no point of discussion.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 02:02:58


Post by: skoffs


Of all the things in a list that a Destroyer Lord can attach to, a unit of 10 Warriors are right at the bottom of priorities.
Deathmarks, Immortals, and the obvious Wraiths would be so much better I'm amazed this is even a discussion. Hell, if you REALLY need to give Warriors PE, the least you could do is bump their unit number up.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 02:19:19


Post by: JustaerinAtTheWall


Agreed. But putting a D Lord with Deathmarks is not the best choice. They do their best work when deep striking in, and a D Lord can't. This means no HFH for your guys.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 02:29:17


Post by: col_impact


 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Agreed. But putting a D Lord with Deathmarks is not the best choice. They do their best work when deep striking in, and a D Lord can't. This means no HFH for your guys.


A D Lord can definitely Deep Strike in with the Deathmarks since it natively has Deep Strike, being a Jet Pack unit.

However, attaching a D Lord to a unit of Deathmarks will prevent the Deathmarks from using the Ethereal Interception rule.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 02:35:04


Post by: JustaerinAtTheWall


Sorry, that's true. But my point still stands, why would you put a D Lord with Deathmarks?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 03:12:11


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JustaerinAtTheWall wrote:
Sorry, that's true. But my point still stands, why would you put a D Lord with Deathmarks?

The 2+ wounds will wound most of the time.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 03:31:49


Post by: Requizen


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Nobody is saying that putting a D Lord with Warriors isn't useful, only that it is not optimal.


There is no optimal for Necrons right now. We can't keep up with Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial cheese, GSC, and Daemon/Magnus. I stopped even worrying about making competitive lists for Crons.

Then don't bother trying to give advice to try and optimize a list. Otherwise there's no point of discussion.


I didn't. I responded to the comment saying there's no reason to put a DLord with Warriors. There clearly is. It's not uber-competitive, but I personally don't think there is anything in the book that is right now.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 04:24:01


Post by: Klowny


Yea I feel a cryptek with chronometron would be better suited to buffing a squad of warriors than a D/Lord, considering you don't want to get them into CC, he is kinda wasted besides his PE. Sure, he has a 3+/4++, but a cronotek gives a 5++ to the whole unit, and a 4+ RP, even against S8+ templates, and is 70 points cheaper (granted he doesnt have a res orb, but who takes res orbs? )

The D/lord goes with assault units. Wraiths, or my personal favourite, Praetorians. He keeps up with the Praets, provides PE to AP2 shooting and melee, the T drops to 5 instead of 4, and makes the whole unit incredibly scary. Waaaay more fun to play then a squad of warriors.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 09:48:32


Post by: Odrankt


I think everyone is forgetting that I only run this list for fun? Its a not a competitive list but its nice to run lists that dont have extra cheese.

Obviously the D.Lord powers of PE would be more useful with Wraiths, Lynchguard or Praetorians. I just put the D.Lord with the warriors for the fun of it. No other reason.

skoffs
Of all the things in a list that a Destroyer Lord can attach to, a unit of 10 Warriors are right at the bottom of priorities.
Deathmarks, Immortals, and the obvious Wraiths would be so much better I'm amazed this is even a discussion. Hell, if you REALLY need to give Warriors PE, the least you could do is bump their unit number


D Lord with Warriors might be bottom of priorities but its to play for fun. Not competitive.
This is a disscussion because everyone keeps pointing out that D Lord w/ 10 warriors isn't a viable unit even thought it was put in their for the fun of it. If I was to making a "competitive" list I would have put the D Lord w/ a unit of Wraiths or Lynchguard.

The reason its a 10 warrior unit and not 20 is because I don't have any spare points. Unless I was to drop a GA and a TB/Wraiths.

Requizen
There is no optimal for Necrons right now. We can't keep up with Eldar/Ynnari, Imperial cheese, GSC, and Daemon/Magnus. I stopped even worrying about making competitive lists for Crons.


I agree 100%. 7th edit. Made the crons a better army in terms of endurance, lowering point cost for specific units and making them harder to destroy (if running a Decurion or any 4+ RP units). However, with all the Gathering of the Storm sets, daemon/magnus psyk powers, GSC hordes or dangerous units and the Imperial in general makes crons (in late 7 edit) a hard army to use competitivly due to how strong other armies have become over the past year or so. I don't play crons competitively, I much rather play a list I just made up and run it against my opponent. I would like to try competitive crons but I think I will wait for 8th edition to see if its possible under the new meta.

Klowny
Yea I feel a cryptek with chronometron would be better suited to buffing a squad of warriors than a D/Lord, considering you don't want to get them into CC, he is kinda wasted besides his PE. Sure, he has a 3+/4++, but a cronotek gives a 5++ to the whole unit, and a 4+ RP, even against S8+ templates, and is 70 points cheaper (granted he doesnt have a res orb, but who takes res orbs? )

The D/lord goes with assault units. Wraiths, or my personal favourite, Praetorians. He keeps up with the Praets, provides PE to AP2 shooting and melee, the T drops to 5 instead of 4, and makes the whole unit incredibly scary. Waaaay more fun to play then a squad of warriors


Hmmm, Cryptek w/ Staff of light/Solar Staff and Chronometron in a unit if Warriors might be fun actually. 4+ RP due Cyptek/Decurion, Chronometron giving then 5++ against shooting (which works as I dont want to be in CC) and that makes the warriors more surviveable and fun. If using the Solar Staff you could make one unit only hit on BS/WS 1 which you could use to help another unit you have (D Lord with Wraiths, Lynchguard or Praetorians). I actually like the res orb if in a unit of flayed ones or Lynchguard tbh. 25 points to re-roll failed RP is pretty good and has helped me in the past.

I never thought of D Lord with Preatorians but it actually sounds really fun! D Lord has DS and because Praes are Jump Infantry they can DS as well (meaning the Veil of Darkness is not needed. Unless you want to DS twice during your game). Re-rolling AP 2 melee and shooting sounds dangerous if not a bit cheesy. I wonder if it would be better to give the D Lord the Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe, Phase Shifter and (maybe) a res orb to keep those preatorians around for a turn or 2 longer. I was thinking of Orikan as well to re-roll 1s but to DS I would need to bring the Veil of Darkness as well.

It does sound fun though and I actually do want to try it out now.







Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 12:09:34


Post by: Anpu-adom


Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 12:39:53


Post by: necr0n


It is very hard to keep a discussion alive saying: "Hey, here's my list. This is how I play it, I don't want to improve it, I don't care about competitive play, so give me any comments". Honestly, what answers did you expect in a Tactics thread? You post your list, people comment how you can optimize and make the best use of what you have. If you don't want those kind of comments and are just planning to ignore it all, because you just play that list for fun, what is the idea behind posting your list?

I don't want to take part in that Destroyer Lord-Warrior unit, I believe most people covered it already, I just think you're missing the point here. If you believe 7th ed necrons are subpar compared to others, it's a completely fair opinion. However, not playing up to their absolute power, ignoring strong units and making "fun" units (Where is the fun or even fluffy side of running a destroyer lord with warriors, honestly?) is definetely helping you increase the gap. If we can't make competitive lists compared to the other armies, just make competitive lists, as much as possible, using our own codex. In non-competitive GT environment, necrons are still very reliable and can net you wins against any army if fielded and played to a decent level. The only thing keeping necrons of GT's final tables are the meta fluctuations, which are mostly irrelevant in your FLGS (topic meta hugely differs to GT final table lists, by far) and not imbalances in the codex. The codex has very good internal balance, many choices to run competitively, quite good ideas and it's pretty strong, compared to standard level lists (tau gunlines, meq battle companies, certain deathstars, etc.). If your FLGS is basicly hardcore, GT winning players, then, yes. You can't keep up with the Necron codex, most likely. If not, however, Necron codex is more than enough to keep you relevant.

Then again, if none of this matters to you and you really just play for "fun" (even though we all enjoy winning and that's the entire goal of the game, behind both list building and strategic playing), then what's the point of taking part in a tactics discussion? Tactics is engaging the brain, in order to get an advantage and win. Tactics are used both when list building and when playing, if you're looking to win. If you don't "care" to win, tactics are irrelevant. If tactics (mostly when list building) are irrelevant to you, then what's the point of posting in a Tactics thread?


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 13:12:49


Post by: Odrankt


 Anpu-adom wrote:
Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...


Thank you for the kind words. I rather have fun if I win or lose. You will always learn something new everytime you enter the tabletop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 necr0n wrote:
It is very hard to keep a discussion alive saying: "Hey, here's my list. This is how I play it, I don't want to improve it, I don't care about competitive play, so give me any comments". Honestly, what answers did you expect in a Tactics thread? You post your list, people comment how you can optimize and make the best use of what you have. If you don't want those kind of comments and are just planning to ignore it all, because you just play that list for fun, what is the idea behind posting your list?

I don't want to take part in that Destroyer Lord-Warrior unit, I believe most people covered it already, I just think you're missing the point here. If you believe 7th ed necrons are subpar compared to others, it's a completely fair opinion. However, not playing up to their absolute power, ignoring strong units and making "fun" units (Where is the fun or even fluffy side of running a destroyer lord with warriors, honestly?) is definetely helping you increase the gap. If we can't make competitive lists compared to the other armies, just make competitive lists, as much as possible, using our own codex. In non-competitive GT environment, necrons are still very reliable and can net you wins against any army if fielded and played to a decent level. The only thing keeping necrons of GT's final tables are the meta fluctuations, which are mostly irrelevant in your FLGS (topic meta hugely differs to GT final table lists, by far) and not imbalances in the codex. The codex has very good internal balance, many choices to run competitively, quite good ideas and it's pretty strong, compared to standard level lists (tau gunlines, meq battle companies, certain deathstars, etc.). If your FLGS is basicly hardcore, GT winning players, then, yes. You can't keep up with the Necron codex, most likely. If not, however, Necron codex is more than enough to keep you relevant.

Then again, if none of this matters to you and you really just play for "fun" (even though we all enjoy winning and that's the entire goal of the game, behind both list building and strategic playing), then what's the point of taking part in a tactics discussion? Tactics is engaging the brain, in order to get an advantage and win. Tactics are used both when list building and when playing, if you're looking to win. If you don't "care" to win, tactics are irrelevant. If tactics (mostly when list building) are irrelevant to you, then what's the point of posting in a Tactics thread?


If you go to page 9 of this thread and look at my 1st comment you will realise that I sent my list for a user to try out. I never said "Hey, here's my list. This is how I play it, I don't want to improve it, I don't care about competitive play, so give me any comments" in any of my comments. i am stating I play for fun, not competitive and i never said I didn't care about competitive. I also never said I didnt want to improve my list as I said before I was thinking of the D Lord in a unit of Praetorians after Klowny stated a good and fun idea. So please read what I have said before you make a false statement.

My "Idea" was to help a user who ask for 1850 lists and peoples opinions on his 2 lists. I also have been taking notes on what people are saying so I'm ignoring no one I am just backing up my point that my list is for fun not competitive and just because its fun doesnt mean you couldn't be tactical with it.

Fair enough that putting a D Lord in with warriors is wasting its potential and isnt fluffy but I like to "mix" things up and put units together just to see what will happen. To me its fun to experiment and fun to play non-competitive lists as you dont get as bothered about winning/losing and you can then compare what your unit did to what you thought it would do, see if it will fit into a different lists and go on from there. I dont have to win all my games to feel like i was having a good time and having "fun".

I do agree with what your saying about competitive. I should just make a competitive list to make the most of what the Necrons can do rather then build a competitive list to combat a certain type of army. my local GW is a mixture of both non-GT and GT winners so I suppose the community is a mixture which can be helpful in making non-competitive/competitive lists.

I actually do like being competitive. I like winning, i like playing well and i like knowing me and my opponent had a good game each. Just sometimes I like bringing "mixed" lists for fun and to experiment. If someone wants to help me make my list better then go for it. I would just rather someone suggest something like a few users have done instead of just degrading my D Lord w/ warriors. That to me isn't helpful.

Anyone can "fix" my list if they want to just note that i an going to keep the list I already stated and will put your comments to another one just like it that will be competitive.


Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97 @ 2017/03/29 14:30:59


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Anpu-adom wrote:
Glad that you play for fun, Odrankt. You stumbled into the greatest collection of Necron Brains (IMHO) on the web...
They are going to do what they do best... optimize.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Imotekh and Flayed Ones decurion...

The Stormlord is hot garbage at the moment but Flayed Ones are actually a great choice, and more importantly can be a hard counter to Genestealer Cult lists, due to the impressive durability and infantry shredding for the points you pay.