I was very sad that 'The Fall of Cadia' held no IG updates...

So what is next? When will they do something/anything with the backbone of the imperium?!?

Are they waiting so long because they are doing a complete revamp of the line?

What will happen to the IG in a storyline that is now moving forward?

A Leman russ variant with twin-linked heavy grav cannon, and new catachan devil unit with stealth and rending, that can charge after infiltrating.

Also Creed will become a monstrous creature.

more discontinued models ; )

GW may consider that they updated Guard - especially Cadian Guard in the Damocles Gulf campaign books.

They gave various formations and the like just not especially good ones.

Still they are better then the one the Sisters got in C:IA.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
A Leman russ variant with twin-linked heavy grav cannon, and new catachan devil unit with stealth and rending, that can charge after infiltrating.

Also Creed will become a monstrous creature.

It should say something that I can half beleive that GW would do this.

Cadian built Flak armour is now a scarce and holy artefact for tech priest to recite over!

Commander of planetary force X, 'Listen up! the Bastion of Cadia has been annihilated in the justice and Holy campaign to victoriously defeat Heresy in the name of the Immortal Emperor. By his guiding hand our order of Lasguns and armour survived the planets destruction and is bound within a few weeks. Wear these relics with pride for each of you will be unstoppable with your Holy lasguns! Even as we speak the forces of Chaos are in full retreat! Although the loss of Cadian Manufactorums is a terrible blow, the Cadian pattern is still vigorously produced on other worlds. We will stand out as an unstoppable bastion of defence with Cadias last pure devices. I ask you men, are we not invincible?' *Massive crowd roars and cheers*

Maybe a line of cadians that don't resemble spaceballs?

What we want:
>A points deduction on all Troops choices
>Lasguns become worth a damn (longer range would help)
>Cheaper special and heavy weapons
>Side armour 11 for the Chimera, along with a points reduction
>Vox casters give unlimited order range
>Standards are actually useful
>Relics are not overpriced garbage
>Most HQ units have a 20% points reduction
>Orders become more versatile
>Priests regain access to the Evisicrator
>Storm Troopers get a 20% points reduction
>Hellguns become S4 AP3 Assault 3
>Volleyguns become S5 AP3 Assault 6
>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP
>Bullgryns drop to 28-30 PPM and gain a 3+ save, FNP and modular loadout options
>Ratlings become somewhat useful
>Sentinels have a 5-10 point reduction in cost
>Hellhound chassis drop in price by 50%
>GW listens to the communities ideas and advice about what to do with Rough Riders... Or just squats them
>Leman Russ chassis drop in price by between 15% to 30%, chassis dependent
>Leman Russ chassis become 4HP models and regain Lumbering Behemoth
>All vehicles gain the ability to become veterans (+1 BS) for 10 points
>The Manticore and Basilisk come down in price by about 20%
>The Deathstrike becomes SD with a +2 on the table
>Griffons, Bombards and Medusas return
>The Vanquisher becomes an actual tank killer
>No more Gets Hot on the Executioner
>Hydras become good against ground targets again and drop in price
>Baneblade chassis become part of the army
>Malcador and Machirus tanks become part of the army and can be used in the place of Baneblades in formations
>Formations that are actually worth a damn and do cripple your wallet and army to bring
>New models that actually look decent

What we will probably get though will be:
>A 10% to 20% pints increase across the board (because Guard still occasionally beat Marines)
>Leman Russ tanks become AV 13/12/10 (because Marine tanks do not have good armour so why should Guard)
>Battlecannons become S7 and Earthshakers S8, and both become AP4 (because Marines should not be vulnerable to heavy ordnance at all, even when caught in the open)
>Lasguns become S2 (after all, Hellguns are S3)
>A new, poorly named, shoddily designed and completely useless model that we didnt ask for

@Master of ordinance

Well that's call being salty...

More seriously, I think that guardsmen will change flagship. With the official destruction of Cadia, the age and underwhelming esthetic of the models it's possible we will see Vostroyan or Catashan become the new standard guard model. As for new stuff, Guards will probably get a new "Macro-formation" build, probably see the return of a few basilisk variant and the Rough Riders go the way of the Dodos. No, guardsmen will not become a powerhouse. Ogryn will still be problematic, while not bad, ratling will be situational due to the poor effectveness of snipers and Scions will be underwhelming or overcost. Tanks will be decent and artillery pretty good.

As the scale of the combatants becomes ever larger with the inclusion of primarchs and deamon primarchs, the imperial guard will start to feel even weaker than they have before. Not to mention the fact that the IG at cadia were the ones that traditionally holding chaos back and have failed in that task. The guard seem increasingly irrelevant.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As the scale of the combatants becomes ever larger with the inclusion of primarchs and deamon primarchs, the imperial guard will start to feel even weaker than they have before. Not to mention the fact that the IG at cadia were the ones that traditionally holding chaos back and have failed in that task. The guard seem increasingly irrelevant.

It's indeed a problem with a setting that becomes more and more "mythical" in its scope. The little people fall behind rather quickly. It's entirely possible for the Guards to remain relevent and interesting in such a setting. You only need to focus on one thing: strength of character. The Imperial Guard cannot live up to Primarchs and the like in terms of sheer power, but it's entirely possible for a "normal human" to possess the genius and, more importantly, the will to become a leader of such a magnitude. They don't even need to be psykers, even if they could be one, the Guards could use a new Ollianus or Macharius. They almost already have one in the person of Yarrick. Maybe we will be given a new Lord Solar/Warmaster to lead the Imperial Guard in the future or maybe a ore humble and quirky hero like a Rogue Trader turned general inspired of people like Drake for example. They are growing increasingly irrelevant due to lack of attention, not lack of potential. Normal badass heroes have proven multiple time to just as popular than Mythical heroes.

CplPunishment wrote:
Maybe a line of cadians that don't resemble spaceballs?

omg... I want to start a guard army just to make spaceballs now.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:
>A points deduction on all Troops choices
>Lasguns become worth a damn (longer range would help)
>Cheaper special and heavy weapons
>Side armour 11 for the Chimera, along with a points reduction
>Vox casters give unlimited order range
>Standards are actually useful
>Relics are not overpriced garbage
>Most HQ units have a 20% points reduction
>Orders become more versatile
>Priests regain access to the Evisicrator
>Storm Troopers get a 20% points reduction
>Hellguns become S4 AP3 Assault 3
>Volleyguns become S5 AP3 Assault 6
>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP
>Bullgryns drop to 28-30 PPM and gain a 3+ save, FNP and modular loadout options
>Ratlings become somewhat useful
>Sentinels have a 5-10 point reduction in cost
>Hellhound chassis drop in price by 50%
>GW listens to the communities ideas and advice about what to do with Rough Riders... Or just squats them
>Leman Russ chassis drop in price by between 15% to 30%, chassis dependent
>Leman Russ chassis become 4HP models and regain Lumbering Behemoth
>All vehicles gain the ability to become veterans (+1 BS) for 10 points
>The Manticore and Basilisk come down in price by about 20%
>The Deathstrike becomes SD with a +2 on the table
>Griffons, Bombards and Medusas return
>The Vanquisher becomes an actual tank killer
>No more Gets Hot on the Executioner
>Hydras become good against ground targets again and drop in price
>Baneblade chassis become part of the army
>Malcador and Machirus tanks become part of the army and can be used in the place of Baneblades in formations
>Formations that are actually worth a damn and do cripple your wallet and army to bring
>New models that actually look decent

What we will probably get though will be:
>A 10% to 20% pints increase across the board (because Guard still occasionally beat Marines)
>Leman Russ tanks become AV 13/12/10 (because Marine tanks do not have good armour so why should Guard)
>Battlecannons become S7 and Earthshakers S8, and both become AP4 (because Marines should not be vulnerable to heavy ordnance at all, even when caught in the open)
>Lasguns become S2 (after all, Hellguns are S3)
>A new, poorly named, shoddily designed and completely useless model that we didnt ask for

Forgot being able to put Heavy Weapons, Special Weapons, Conscripts and such into Chimera's or Taurox's, the lack of giving them a dedicated transport bites the big one.

All I want for the IG is infantry that actually looks like humans instead of gorillas in uniform.

Astra Auxilium. Sick of summoning shenanigans? Does your Imperial faction require cheap expendable troops? Buy this supplement! Field as many as you can fit on the table - provided you buy enough models.

epronovost wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
As the scale of the combatants becomes ever larger with the inclusion of primarchs and deamon primarchs, the imperial guard will start to feel even weaker than they have before. Not to mention the fact that the IG at cadia were the ones that traditionally holding chaos back and have failed in that task. The guard seem increasingly irrelevant.

It's indeed a problem with a setting that becomes more and more "mythical" in its scope. The little people fall behind rather quickly. It's entirely possible for the Guards to remain relevent and interesting in such a setting. You only need to focus on one thing: strength of character. The Imperial Guard cannot live up to Primarchs and the like in terms of sheer power, but it's entirely possible for a "normal human" to possess the genius and, more importantly, the will to become a leader of such a magnitude. They don't even need to be psykers, even if they could be one, the Guards could use a new Ollianus or Macharius. They almost already have one in the person of Yarrick. Maybe we will be given a new Lord Solar/Warmaster to lead the Imperial Guard in the future or maybe a ore humble and quirky hero like a Rogue Trader turned general inspired of people like Drake for example. They are growing increasingly irrelevant due to lack of attention, not lack of potential. Normal badass heroes have proven multiple time to just as popular than Mythical heroes.

Cain is your man - reluctant but effective

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:

I'd be on board with all of this. And revamped roughriders. Because I want to love them...

What we will probably get though will be:

...But I know this is what's going to happen...

Unfortunately I don't see the IG getting the attention it deserves, we are in the same boat as DE, Orks and Bugs in the fact that we are often overlooked or only given "Band Aid" style updates to try and keep us somewhat relevant. The wishlisting above has a lot of good things that are necessary however I would even settle for the following which sadly might be more reachable:

-IG Tanks get a variant that is effective in dealing with Monstrous Creatures (Beast Hunter Shells anyone?)
-IG Tanks get 4 HP base
-Points reduction across the board

 gmaleron wrote:
Unfortunately I don't see the IG getting the attention it deserves, we are in the same boat as DE, Orks and Bugs in the fact that we are often overlooked or only given "Band Aid" style updates to try and keep us somewhat relevant. The wishlisting above has a lot of good things that are necessary however I would even settle for the following which sadly might be more reachable:

-IG Tanks get a variant that is effective in dealing with Monstrous Creatures (Beast Hunter Shells anyone?)
-IG Tanks get 4 HP base
-Points reduction across the board

That would be nice.

I run BH shells already with my IA book (it REALLY throws people for a loop when I say its Instant Death. Kill Kharne and countless other big things with these lovely shells).
But I wish I could run them normally instead of a special tank (Commisar tank is usually how I run them).

 gmaleron wrote:
Unfortunately I don't see the IG getting the attention it deserves, we are in the same boat as DE, Orks and Bugs in the fact that we are often overlooked or only given "Band Aid" style updates to try and keep us somewhat relevant.

Basically everyone has received "band-aid style updates" over the past few years. Some of those band-aids have been covering minor scrapes, others are trying to hold severed limbs together.

The wishlisting above has a lot of good things that are necessary however I would even settle for the following which sadly might be more reachable:

-IG Tanks get a variant that is effective in dealing with Monstrous Creatures (Beast Hunter Shells anyone?)
-IG Tanks get 4 HP base
-Points reduction across the board

Forget anything and everything about tanks. Until we get an edition change and vehicles get a change, don't even bother.

>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP

Is.. that really necessary? Or is this just full wishlisting.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP

Is.. that really necessary? Or is this just full wishlisting.

Have you ever used Ogryn?

Yeah. Absolutely necessary.

gmaleron wrote:
-IG Tanks get a variant that is effective in dealing with Monstrous Creatures (Beast Hunter Shells anyone?)

Forgot abut this. We need an anti MC choice or ywo, and they need to be good.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP

Is.. that really necessary? Or is this just full wishlisting.

Have you ever run Ogryns? Which reminds me:
>An effective delivery system for Ogryns.

 gmaleron wrote:

-Points reduction across the board

I think we're well past this being a viable fix. The cost of almost everything has gradually crept downwards, in some cases combined with increased offensive power. It's at the point where how much lower should we go? 3ppm? 2ppm? Start pointing IG by squad, say, 6-8pts per squad? Diminishing returns is already a big thing when it comes to large guard blobs. The alternative is to make guardsmen individually better, which runs counter to what attracts many of us to play the faction.

The problem is now that if guardsmen are to stand out on their strength of character they must well, standout. To stand out is to be important as an individual and to make a difference as an individual. The guard are at an impasse where they are either a monolith of facless goons, or they are a group of heroic and laudable individuals.


This change into strength of character must translate into gameplay mechanics as well. I do not see that happening sadly.

Meagre pay and a genuine expectation of dying in service?

 Elbows wrote:
Meagre pay and a genuine expectation of dying in service?

Exalted

In the "agents of the Imperium" book the officer of the fleet and all guards psykers are listed. This "could" indicate that they and the valkyre are dropped from the codex. I'm expecting to see the vendetta dissapeared, though I converted one so I hope not. It might change name to something not impressive like "Auxilias Solaris" or "Militarum sapiens" with where the fluff is heading.

Guards are my favourite army but all horde armies really seem to have taken a beating. I don't want super bio-engineered killing machines or demigods or monsters. I want the good simple men complaining about having to kill them.

I hope for Guarsmen sculpts that are not holding their fifles sidewards from their torsos, but actually aim foward.

Wish list:
1. ability to upgrade any infantry unit or vehicle to "veteran status (BS4)
2. Tank commanders may issue orders to infantry or vehicle squads other than their own/ infantry commander may issue orders to vehicles
3. Vox give orders unlimited range
4. Valks are considered dedicated transports
5. upgrade for for the MoO that allows him to use his special ability more than once per turn (For lets say 20 points)
6. Leman russ variant with twin linked las canons. And give all russes some rear Armour.
7. Do something with scions, they look great but aren't cost effective next to vets.
8. Vehicle mounted plasma weapons do not suffer "gets hot"

I don't think GW will be drooping the Cadians anytime soon, but; I've been wrong before. If they were to do so I doubt they would replace them with Catchan, those guys just never seemed popular. Maybe new models for Tanith? Maybe Death Korp or one of the other WW1ish armies? Or some previously undisclosed guard army that looks something like the new Scions. Either way, we will see.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:

Damn fine list!

How about this one;
The ability attach a command squad to the platoon it commands so everyone in the platoon can get FNP from the platoon medic?

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:

Great write up Master of Ordinance. For those asking if he is serious, yes basically all of the above would need to happen and more if guard is ever to be taken seriously. Its not wish listing or sarcasm. This is bare minimum what is needed to make the codex even remotely viable. Ogryns as discussed are a perfect example and yes FNP is absolutely necessary. Lets ignore the fact that FNP exists on tons of units in the game that currently shouldn't. Taken directly from the lore:

"Ogryns are massive brutes whose immense strength is legendary throughout the imperium. They thunder into enemy tropps, smashing the 'little 'uns' to a paste with broad swings of stocky weapons. They can survive a score of wounds that would fell a normal man and shrug off small arms fire as if it were nothing more than a bothersome sump-fly."

Has anyone seen a better definition for feel no pain? Anyone? I'm fine with Ogryns having a higher saving throw because much of their skin is exposed. That is fine but they damn well better have a 4+ FNP. Currently Ogryn/Bullgryn are in the same price range as wolfen yet lack any of the melee lethality or special rules. Beautiful models, but yeah their rules are absolute garbage.

KayTwo wrote:
Wish list:
1. ability to upgrade any infantry unit or vehicle to "veteran status (BS4)
2. Tank commanders may issue orders to infantry or vehicle squads other than their own/ infantry commander may issue orders to vehicles
3. Vox give orders unlimited range
4. Valks are considered dedicated transports
5. upgrade for for the MoO that allows him to use his special ability more than once per turn (For lets say 20 points)
6. Leman russ variant with twin linked las canons. And give all russes some rear Armour.
7. Do something with scions, they look great but aren't cost effective next to vets.
8. Vehicle mounted plasma weapons do not suffer "gets hot"

I don't think GW will be drooping the Cadians anytime soon, but; I've been wrong before. If they were to do so I doubt they would replace them with Catchan, those guys just never seemed popular. Maybe new models for Tanith? Maybe Death Korp or one of the other WW1ish armies? Or some previously undisclosed guard army that looks something like the new Scions. Either way, we will see.

my guess would be, if they change the line up at all, it'll be a new army, one rigged to be more visually distinct. from a marketing POV none of the guard regiments scream "40k" the way say... space marines do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar Benny wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:

Great write up Master of Ordinance. For those asking if he is serious, yes basically all of the above would need to happen and more if guard is ever to be taken seriously. Its not wish listing or sarcasm. This is bare minimum what is needed to make the codex even remotely viable. Ogryns as discussed are a perfect example and yes FNP is absolutely necessary. Lets ignore the fact that FNP exists on tons of units in the game that currently shouldn't. Taken directly from the lore:

"Ogryns are massive brutes whose immense strength is legendary throughout the imperium. They thunder into enemy tropps, smashing the 'little 'uns' to a paste with broad swings of stocky weapons. They can survive a score of wounds that would fell a normal man and shrug off small arms fire as if it were nothing more than a bothersome sump-fly."

Has anyone seen a better definition for feel no pain? Anyone? I'm fine with Ogryns having a higher saving throw because much of their skin is exposed. That is fine but they damn well better have a 4+ FNP. Currently Ogryn/Bullgryn are in the same price range as wolfen yet lack any of the melee lethality or special rules. Beautiful models, but yeah their rules are absolute garbage.

"shrug off small arms fire" that to me suggests a toughness of 4-5 (keep in mind small arms fire is autoguns, and lasguns S3 weapons)

BrianDavion wrote:
"shrug off small arms fire" that to me suggests a toughness of 4-5 (keep in mind small arms fire is autoguns, and lasguns S3 weapons)

I would agree except that even a moderate amount of S3 fire brings down Ogryn like they are nothing. I played against a genestealer cult list recently where neophyte autogun shots brought down 2 Ogryn in one round of shooting. Then they had to make a leadership test which they failed and were useless for the rest of the game.

Here is another quote from the lore:

"Their skin is extremely thick and Ogryns can ignore wounds that would cripple or kill a normal man."

Again of all the units in the game with FNP I doubt any of them are characterized in the same manner & frequency as Ogryn are as just completely ignoring wounds. Lets set aside the FNP issue for a moment though and dig into all the other issues plaguing this codex entry.

Ogryn & Bullgryn are massively overpriced for what they bring to the table. To start their base cost is almost 33% more expensive then Wolfen with no awesome special rules. Despite being what should be the designated counter assault unit in the IG codex, 2 of the 3 builds offer no benefit to melee whatsoever.

Ripper Guns give no bonus to strength/WS, despite being specifically designed for Ogryn to be used as melee weapons yet it is not reflected at all on the tabletop.. Nor do they add rending/shred when fired. Which is a huge disappointment.

Then you have the slab shield option. Which forces bullgryn to take grenade launchers. Once again...not providing any benefit to melee. IG's primary weakness.

Lastly you have power maul & brute shield. Now, while this is likely your best option it is still pretty terrible. The increase in points to an already expensive unit is well beyond reasonable. The +2S is nice, however the concussive bonus is less than ideal. One of Ogryns biggest threats is S10 power weapons. Thunder hammers, power claws & what have you. Concussive does nothing for you when those weapons are already hitting at initiative one since they are unwieldy. If any of those attack get through its instant death if you fail invul despite the ogryn/bullgryn's 3 wounds.

Then there is the issue of low leadership. Meaning you have to add a commissar or some other babysitter to actually make the unit effective...bloating the points even more...


The entire IG codex is filled with units like this.

Like why are we paying 125+ points for a hellhound? Not only is it unlikely to even make it to its target with AV12, but you are paying 125 pts for what is essentially a heavy flamer torrent. Yeah it might get that 1 shot off, but then it is going to get popped or charged at which point its toast. The likelihood you are going to be able to kill 125 points in 1 flamer template is highly unlikely. Meaning its not going to pay for itself.

Commissar Benny wrote:


"Their skin is extremely thick and Ogryns can ignore wounds that would cripple or kill a normal man."

Again of all the units in the game with FNP I doubt any of them are characterized in the same manner & frequency as Ogryn are as just completely ignoring wounds.

I'm pretty sure anything Nurgle would take issue with that point.

I'm expecting rules changes in 8th that tone down top tier armies rather than lifting lower tier ones. I like the idea a lot of any unit becoming vets I'd pay that tax.

I think anyone who collects guard that has surpassed 2000 points is chasing that one factor: variety. How can gw give us more variety without adding new models? Take a tip from forgeworld and give catachan, cadians, tallarn, the Russians and steel legion thier own rules. Let forgeworld run death korps and elysians.

Simple as tallarn get +1 ws and poison or catachan get +1T or a special rule like steel legion isn't affected by going to ground.

Give us a reason to collect what's out there already no matter how much we complain we have 5 different sculpts for guardsmen which is so unique and literally allows gamers to see different models having different abilities on the table top.

I would buy atleast one set of all gw available guardsmen models if they did this.

And lastly I forgot mordian guard! That's 6 different guardsmen!

nateprati wrote:

Give us a reason to collect what's out there already no matter how much we complain we have 5 different sculpts for guardsmen which is so unique and literally allows gamers to see different models having different abilities on the table top.

I would buy atleast one set of all gw available guardsmen models if they did this.

And lastly I forgot mordian guard! That's 6 different guardsmen!

Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Droops, Vostroyan Firstborn, Haakoni Warhawks, Tanith First, Savlar Chem Dogs, Mordian Iron Guard, Praetorian Guard, Tallarn Desert Raiders, Attillan Rough Riders, Armageddon Steel Legion, Cadian Shock Troops (remnants), Catachan Jungle Fighters, Penal Legions (Last Chancers), Maccabian Jannissaries (although copyright issues might prevent these guys), Scintillian Fusiliers, Valhallan Ice Warriors...

..There are quite a few.

Don't count on any nerfs. Eldar got nerfed from 2nd to 3rd, but by the end of 3rd, were sporting S6 AP2 ROF 3 guns. Eldar have to mow down marines like helpless chattle or the GW writers aren't happy.

 Fafnir wrote:

nateprati wrote:

Give us a reason to collect what's out there already no matter how much we complain we have 5 different sculpts for guardsmen which is so unique and literally allows gamers to see different models having different abilities on the table top.

I would buy atleast one set of all gw available guardsmen models if they did this.

And lastly I forgot mordian guard! That's 6 different guardsmen!

Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Droops, Vostroyan Firstborn, Haakoni Warhawks, Tanith First, Savlar Chem Dogs, Mordian Iron Guard, Praetorian Guard, Tallarn Desert Raiders, Attillan Rough Riders, Armageddon Steel Legion, Cadian Shock Troops (remnants), Catachan Jungle Fighters, Penal Legions (Last Chancers), Maccabian Jannissaries (although copyright issues might prevent these guys), Scintillian Fusiliers, Valhallan Ice Warriors...

..There are quite a few.

How many of those already have models though? I see Catachan all the time, heck one of the store nears me has more Catachan that Cadians, but I have never seen them fielded.

What I really want for the guards is for the roles to make them more of a combined arms army. I hate the idea of sacrificing mass infantry or bringing nothing but tanks, I want my army to have a good mix of footsloggers, tanks, artillery, and aircraft. I want my army to look and feel like a modern army, like a marine corp detachment. That's where America draws it's power; good troop with even better support. Let the space marines be the best individual fighters in the galaxy, the eldar the sneakiest, the orc and nids the massed waves of dead men. That's not what I want, I want those brave mortals risking all so that the cannons in the back can squeeze off a few more rounds and the air support can arrive.

KayTwo wrote:


What I really want for the guards is for the roles to make them more of a combined arms army. I hate the idea of sacrificing mass infantry or bringing nothing but tanks, I want my army to have a good mix of footsloggers, tanks, artillery, and aircraft. I want my army to look and feel like a modern army, like a marine corp detachment. That's where America draws it's power; good troop with even better support.

Most IG regiments aren't combined arms though. The Imperial Guard are more like a Napoleonic era army with sci-fantasy guns than a modern army, separate regiments for the different combat arms.

US power primarily comes from a peerless blue-water navy.

I'd like sentinels to be actually useful again. In 5th edition, armored and scout sentinels were actually useful-- not the most powerful things in the world, but had use. No one seems to use them nowadays, though admittedly that might just be the local meta

 MarsNZ wrote:


Most IG regiments aren't combined arms though. The Imperial Guard are more like a Napoleonic era army with sci-fantasy guns than a modern army, separate regiments for the different combat arms.

US power primarily comes from a peerless blue-water navy.

I would point out that Napoleon was an artillery commander and used an early version of combined arms with infantry, artillery, and cavalry; so at the very least by your argument the rough riders need an upgrade. That being said; Cadians, Catachan,, Elysian, Tanith, and Savlar are all moderenesk armies, while Death Korps, Tallarn, Armageddon, and Penal are ww1/ww2 hybrids. But, you are right; I am not trying to say that there is no place for massed waves of doomed infantry in the IG, I am trying to say that there should be more competitive options than just massed waves of doomed infantry in the IG.

While the Navy is certainly the most powerful arm of the American armed forces it does not change the fact that historically the US Army has kicked ass with above par infantry supported with superb artillery. as the old joke goes:

You can identify an unknown force by firing one shot and judging the response. If the unknowns respond with precise, regimented rifle fire, they are British. If they respond with heavy machinegun fire, they are German. But if nothing happens for a few minutes, then your whole position gets leveled by artillery, they are American.
If they surrender, they're French.

Don't believe that bit about the French, frogs are good at killing.

French are historically pretty badass.

KayTwo wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:


Most IG regiments aren't combined arms though. The Imperial Guard are more like a Napoleonic era army with sci-fantasy guns than a modern army, separate regiments for the different combat arms.

US power primarily comes from a peerless blue-water navy.

I would point out that Napoleon was an artillery commander and used an early version of combined arms with infantry, artillery, and cavalry; so at the very least by your argument the rough riders need an upgrade. That being said; Cadians, Catachan,, Elysian, Tanith, and Savlar are all moderenesk armies, while Death Korps, Tallarn, Armageddon, and Penal are ww1/ww2 hybrids. But, you are right; I am not trying to say that there is no place for massed waves of doomed infantry in the IG, I am trying to say that there should be more competitive options than just massed waves of doomed infantry in the IG.

While the Navy is certainly the most powerful arm of the American armed forces it does not change the fact that historically the US Army has kicked ass with above par infantry supported with superb artillery. as the old joke goes:

You can identify an unknown force by firing one shot and judging the response. If the unknowns respond with precise, regimented rifle fire, they are British. If they respond with heavy machinegun fire, they are German. But if nothing happens for a few minutes, then your whole position gets leveled by artillery, they are American.
If they surrender, they're French.

Don't believe that bit about the French, frogs are good at killing.

The thing is, the Imperial Guard are banned from being a combined arms military. By keeping regiments specialised, they reduce the damage a traitor regiment can do.
Infantry rebel? They have little in the way of ordnance.
Tanks rebel? Can't hold objectives well and can be outmaneuvered.
Artillery rebel? They have no defenders.
Air force rebel? They have no way to effectively hold a position.

By dividing the guard, the risk of heresy is reduced. There's a fluff reason they're organised in this way.

Not to mention that many armies you listed are nowhere near modern.
Tanith are a single regiment of scouts and snipers. No artillery, no tanks, no aircraft, little in the way of heavy firepower.
Elysians are almost exclusively drop troops, lacking tanks and artillery, as well as means to hold a position.
Salver are drugged up underhivers with little discipline.
Cadians are only seen as modern due to the aesthetic of their armour. Catachans don't even have that.

Martel732 wrote:
French are historically pretty badass.

And people forget that. Curiously enough, the guys who originated the rumour have always had two oceans to defend them from their potential competitors during this last 150 years, rather than live next door.

KayTwo wrote:

While the Navy is certainly the most powerful arm of the American armed forces it does not change the fact that historically the US Army has kicked ass with above par infantry supported with superb artillery. as the old joke goes:

You can identify an unknown force by firing one shot and judging the response. If the unknowns respond with precise, regimented rifle fire, they are British. If they respond with heavy machinegun fire, they are German. But if nothing happens for a few minutes, then your whole position gets leveled by artillery, they are American.

That first part is simply not true. There is nothing to suggest the US infantryman is somehow more exceptional than any other. They have a staggering amount of support which generally does the majority of the heavy lifting.

The second part is just an old adage from WW2. Allow me to provide another somewhat paraphrased example;
"When the Germans fly overhead, the British take cover, when the British fly overhead, the Germans take cover. When the Americans fly overhead, everyone takes cover."

France already had an illustrious military history when the US was still an irrelevant backwater colony. Without their intervention the revolution would likely have failed.

To start their base cost is almost 33% more expensive then Wolfen with no awesome special rules.

If this is what we are using as a baseline nearly every assault unit in the game is overcosted. Wulfen should've never been released as is.

I would honestly prefer seeing Ogryn on the table though, they were always cool little muties.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The thing is, the Imperial Guard are banned from being a combined arms military. By keeping regiments specialised, they reduce the damage a traitor regiment can do.
Infantry rebel? They have little in the way of ordnance.
Tanks rebel? Can't hold objectives well and can be outmaneuvered.
Artillery rebel? They have no defenders.
Air force rebel? They have no way to effectively hold a position.

By dividing the guard, the risk of heresy is reduced. There's a fluff reason they're organised in this way.

Not to mention that many armies you listed are nowhere near modern.
Tanith are a single regiment of scouts and snipers. No artillery, no tanks, no aircraft, little in the way of heavy firepower.
Elysians are almost exclusively drop troops, lacking tanks and artillery, as well as means to hold a position.
Salver are drugged up underhivers with little discipline.
Cadians are only seen as modern due to the aesthetic of their armour. Catachans don't even have that.

Which all comes to reinforce a further point:

IG regiments present an absolutely huge amount of variance in their doctrines and methodologies, many of which end up going far beyond a sea of infantry. When you have a wider breadth and depth of variance than the Space Marine chapters, it's absolutely criminal that none of it is even attempted to be represented on the tabletop. If they won't give combined arms (and the fluff totally justifies that), then at the very least, they should allow players to build their specialized regiments in an effective fashion.

Massed infantry/heavy armour/light armour/artillery, stormtroopers (my personal favourite, I love badass normals), cavalry, scouts, paratroopers, and the like all present the potential for some interesting gameplay avenues that GW just refuses to touch upon, because they can't be sphess mahrines.

I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The thing is, the Imperial Guard are banned from being a combined arms military. By keeping regiments specialised, they reduce the damage a traitor regiment can do.
Infantry rebel? They have little in the way of ordnance.
Tanks rebel? Can't hold objectives well and can be outmaneuvered.
Artillery rebel? They have no defenders.
Air force rebel? They have no way to effectively hold a position.

By dividing the guard, the risk of heresy is reduced. There's a fluff reason they're organised in this way.

Not to mention that many armies you listed are nowhere near modern.
Tanith are a single regiment of scouts and snipers. No artillery, no tanks, no aircraft, little in the way of heavy firepower.
Elysians are almost exclusively drop troops, lacking tanks and artillery, as well as means to hold a position.
Salver are drugged up underhivers with little discipline.
Cadians are only seen as modern due to the aesthetic of their armour. Catachans don't even have that.

Which all comes to reinforce a further point:

IG regiments present an absolutely huge amount of variance in their doctrines and methodologies, many of which end up going far beyond a sea of infantry. When you have a wider breadth and depth of variance than the Space Marine chapters, it's absolutely criminal that none of it is even attempted to be represented on the tabletop. If they won't give combined arms (and the fluff totally justifies that), then at the very least, they should allow players to build their specialized regiments in an effective fashion.

Massed infantry/heavy armour/light armour/artillery, stormtroopers (my personal favourite, I love badass normals), cavalry, scouts, paratroopers, and the like all present the potential for some interesting gameplay avenues that GW just refuses to touch upon, because they can't be sphess mahrines.

Exactly. I play a regiment based on Long Range Penetration and LRRPs. I intentionally do not use tanks or any heavier vehicles as these military doctrines require stealth and are often supported by long range artillery and aircraft instead. Another requirement for this regiment to work would be that riflemen actually get their just due throughout the game system, making them a much better anti infantry option if used correctly.

Many of the issues I hold are not just with the Imperial Guard, but also with the game system as a whole. Flanking, and outsmarting your opponent should be the emphasis of a war game. All units should have a defined role AND BE CAPABLE OF EXECUTING THAT ROLE IF USED CORRECTLY. If a space marine is flanked by a group of guardsmen and is caught unawares, he should die because he was stupid and he was outmaneuvered. The whole idea of certain weaponry being useless is just terrible game design.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

We used to have them in a previous codex. Best (IMO) IG codex we have had. You could customize your army with (IIRC) up to five skill sets/doctrines, some of which were free and applied army wide (Yes, you could make the entire army into drop troops for FREE!) and some of which cost points and could be applied on a unit by unit basis.

 don_mondo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

We used to have them in a previous codex. Best (IMO) IG codex we have had. You could customize your army with (IIRC) up to five skill sets/doctrines, some of which were free and applied army wide (Yes, you could make the entire army into drop troops for FREE!) and some of which cost points and could be applied on a unit by unit basis.

That was 4th ed, and represented gws overall design philosophy at the time. You could do some pretty cool stuff with ig, sm, tyranids, chaos and eldar back then. In IGs case the biggest where probably all deep strike army, fully mechanised, all get 4+save, all get +1 cover and all units could infiltrate the biggest thing. Theese things did not apply to tanks though. Also in accordance with said design all armies warger sections where significantly larger with more options for every model.

In 5th ed GW changed that philosophy and put the focus on special characters, making it "herohammer". Most special characters got a special rule that extended to the entire army. Most of said rules equavelents had been available before as upgrades in the form of doctrines. Wargear secrions where much reduced and streamlined for unit entries.

Not sure what happened in 6th, I honestly wasn't around.

Now in 7th ed most armies has formations to fill up a similar role that doctrines and then special characters did, as well as much more extensive army specific special rules. Frankly I think the best solution was the 4th ed one.

 don_mondo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

We used to have them in a previous codex. Best (IMO) IG codex we have had. You could customize your army with (IIRC) up to five skill sets/doctrines, some of which were free and applied army wide (Yes, you could make the entire army into drop troops for FREE!) and some of which cost points and could be applied on a unit by unit basis.

IG still have that in the current codex, but it's much more restricted (Veterans only) and a lot of them are minor buffs.

Can we get a reduction in the cost of heavy weapons squads? Or at least statlines/equipment that reflect their cost?

PLEASE?!

Also bring back the Steel Legion.

Regimental Tactics are long overdue

I'd like to see upgrade blisters for each of the regiments represented in the Codex..

Tanith came cloak bits, lasgun scopes and bearded headed
Mordian - Dress blue hats/arms, with ornamental bits for sarges


... you get the idea.


-Regimental doctrines like 5th edition codex, but more fleshed out. Customizable load outs for your army play style
- I want to see russes get a overall points reduction, or at the very least Lumbering Behemoth back.
- Option to put a lagsgun on sargants for free.
- Creed out of the codex. He is supposed to be spaced right.
- Sly Marbo back
- Basilisks reduced in cost by 30 points minimum
- Hellhounds reduced in cost by 20 points
- Ogryns reduced in points by 5-10 ppm
- Deep strike options for scout sentinels
- Chimera reduced in points by 10 ppm
- Chimera autocannon upgrade option as per FW
- Leman russ annihilator back, and conqueror
- New orders
- Vox rules changed to be much more powerful; would like them to reliably keep single infantry squads on the board after suffering casualties away from the main line, to help bring MSU of infantry squads back as an option.
- Conscripts nerfed. I hate playing with these, as they're no fun from a fluff side, but too good to pass down.
- Guardsmen squad costs 40 points

Some interesting, smaller scale platoon orientated formations...

IE:
Recon Platoon Formation:
Requires 1 Platoon Consisting of;
- PCS
- 2 infantry squads exactly (can not combine)
- 1 scout sentinel
- 2 special weapon squads (one with 3x snipers)

Benefits... If one of your snipers hits an enemy model, all other units from this formation gain the twin-linked rule against that squad thereafter.

... just an example...

Okay I'm rambling now, but the list of wants is too big I think .

 Kellevil wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:

Damn fine list!

How about this one;
The ability attach a command squad to the platoon it commands so everyone in the platoon can get FNP from the platoon medic?

the 30k militia allows the player to buy three medics as elite choice and attach them to any (infantry) unit at the start of the game!
this is one upgrade the guard needs!

point drop for valkyrie 30-40 points or give the damm thing some fire power
fast attack units that are actually usable
lasgun is just a joke
smaller formations
regimental tactics or like 30k provenances of war
baneblade and friends as LOW are just ridiculous compared to any other LOW in the game
vox caster grants unlimited order range and reduction of artillery scatter by 3” or just one scatter dice when vox caster has line of sight to target
hydra may fire at ground targets with full bs again!

I'm going to avoid one of my cynical, "they're not Space Marines and don't work as a straight Ally-unit like Knights do, so they'll be relegated to NPC status" posts but- oh wait.

In all seriousness, I want them to take a look at the Solar Auxilia and bring them closer in line with them. I realise that "dude wave tactics lmao" has become something of an overblown meme surrounding the Imperial Guard, but I feel as if returning to the focus of the Imperial Guard to its bread and butter - Infantry Platoons - would go a long way. By focus I don't just mean allowing us to take thousands of them and ram them down the enemy's throat either. The Solar Auxilia line infantry are everything I want out of the Guard; formations and synergy that improves their shooting and power, ranked order firing that wittles down the enemy until they advance to seize ground, that sort of thing. They're not Space Marines, but they pack an okay punch if you properly 'march' them.

The 'problem' I foresee with the Imperial Guard is that in an age of BIGGER IS BETTER and gradually more and more absurd models, the Imperial Guard are a stark contrast to that. Their entire theme is that they're average humans. This means that the most likely route Games Workshop will go is shoving us some sort of absurd Super Baneblade Extreme++ and going all out on trying to make them the "tank army" whilst pushing out dozens of new, increasingly absurd mechanised units. Failing that, they'll shunt 'Astra Militarum' to the wayside and put Stormtroopers as the new posterboys of 'Average Joes'.

Bring back lumbering behemoth. Ordinance rules are wrecking iconic units. Give vehicles split fire. Because, you know, they have crews.

Oh, and I nearly forgot:
>GW support the Guard for once and actually let us have a major part to play in our own story.

Not much I am afraid, with the Primarchs returning, the Guard is going to get sidelined even more.

As long as it doesn't get the Free Peoples treatement in AOS...

Grav cannon Sentinal
Lascannon sponsons for Russes (would fit with the vanquisher and even better with the annihilator variant.. which has a 2xTL lascannon turret) - 5 las cannon shots per turn

give stromtroopers/scions WS4, A2 and a hotshot laspistol so they have 3 attacks, they are supposed to be the best trained humans.. on par with commisars.
also...give hotshot shred

 Nerak wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

We used to have them in a previous codex. Best (IMO) IG codex we have had. You could customize your army with (IIRC) up to five skill sets/doctrines, some of which were free and applied army wide (Yes, you could make the entire army into drop troops for FREE!) and some of which cost points and could be applied on a unit by unit basis.

That was 4th ed, and represented gws overall design philosophy at the time. You could do some pretty cool stuff with ig, sm, tyranids, chaos and eldar back then. In IGs case the biggest where probably all deep strike army, fully mechanised, all get 4+save, all get +1 cover and all units could infiltrate the biggest thing. Theese things did not apply to tanks though. Also in accordance with said design all armies warger sections where significantly larger with more options for every model.

In 5th ed GW changed that philosophy and put the focus on special characters, making it "herohammer". Most special characters got a special rule that extended to the entire army. Most of said rules equavelents had been available before as upgrades in the form of doctrines. Wargear secrions where much reduced and streamlined for unit entries.

Not sure what happened in 6th, I honestly wasn't around.

Now in 7th ed most armies has formations to fill up a similar role that doctrines and then special characters did, as well as much more extensive army specific special rules. Frankly I think the best solution was the 4th ed one.

I think making it a bit too open that way would proably be broken, when you have 20 things you can combine in any combo it's a lot easier for things to be broken.

However some general regimental tactics might work.

you could for example take "mechanized" as your regimental tactic and all your vehicles now have the fast rule. (suddenly chimerias are awesome) etc.

If we get new guard sculpts they should be slightly smaller with more realistic proportions. Rank and file IG are stuck in the dark past with their enormous heads and hands, slim em down a bit so they're more in line with all the other 40k beasties.

Give them a generic torso and legs, then have upgrade packs with heads/weapons/arms for the many assorted guardsmen armies out there. Heck, bring out plastic Elysians and Death Korps. Two IG armies with very different play styles and equally different/awesome aesthetics.

I wouldn't mind seeing the next codex accomodate Elysians and Krieg, but I wouldn't care to see a GW release of models for them. Those two regiments have their own models and identity under Forgeworld, no need for redundancies there when there are an endless array of worlds in the Imperium with their own unique regiments that could be represented to push diversity even further.

For all the neglect that the guard face, they should be the most diverse and variable faction in the entire 40k setting. No point in treading over old ground, especially when those original models are already doing fantastically on their own.

You know what I want for Guard? Solar Auxilia type models. And what MoO said on page one

Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

 Badablack wrote:
Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

the best answer would be for GW to introduce new regiments that share eneugh kits for a single "buy 1 kit, build both" kit to work

Oh yeah, and rough riders ought to have a point reduction to 9 points...
or just simply be replaced by Death riders (from Dkok codex)

for rough rider cost +5p they get;
4+ sv
FNP (6+)
+1W
+1A
krak grenades

re-roll dangerous terrain tests
Stubborn
and can take commissars and priests

and the option to upgrade to include scout if i remember correctly.. +10p per squad?

 Badablack wrote:
Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

GW could just sell boxes of guardsmen with great coats and sell heads separately. Boom, Steel Legion, Valhallans, and Vostroyans are now in plastic. IDK why they don't do this with Tallarns already, seeing as they are just Cadians with a special head wrapping. Mordians could only be done with their own cast, so I doubt we'll ever see them in plastic.

Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

problem is, make em too powerful and you've got space marines, guard need to be about cheap man power thats their thing.

While they're overcosted for their performance, the IG tempestus/stormtroopers manage to exhibit an attempt at a happy medium of cost to power. Vets can come close, but they suffer the problem of having lasguns, and lasguns being absolute garbage.

Of course, I say this as someone who doesn't like massive infantry swarms, preferring a force of badass normals.

 Badablack wrote:
If we get new guard sculpts they should be slightly smaller with more realistic proportions. Rank and file IG are stuck in the dark past with their enormous heads and hands, slim em down a bit so they're more in line with all the other 40k beasties.

Give them a generic torso and legs, then have upgrade packs with heads/weapons/arms for the many assorted guardsmen armies out there. Heck, bring out plastic Elysians and Death Korps. Two IG armies with very different play styles and equally different/awesome aesthetics.

Two advantages to slimming Guardsmen models down to smaller, more proper proportions: 1. They will look better, and 2. it'll make things like Marines and Orks look all the more imposing in comparison to normal human troops.

I will admit though, as I already have an army, it'll be a little rough having two sizes of guardsmen on the table

I think the bog standard Guardsman should get better for his points cost instead of cheaper. There is a reason why I run mechanized Guard instead of a platoon list....

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:
>A points deduction on all Troops choices Sure seems reasonable.
>Lasguns become worth a damn (longer range would help) They're ok when spammed but only vs hordes. I suppose a slight increase or points drop is fine
>Cheaper special and heavy weapons They could also have different types of special and heavy weapons but sure i guess.
>Side armour 11 for the Chimera, along with a points reduction Maybe but raiders cost a crap ton as well.
>Vox casters give unlimited order range I honestly didn't know they didn't have that already.
>Standards are actually useful Dunno what they changed but regimental used to give re-roll LD.
>Relics are not overpriced garbage I don't know enough on this subject.
>Most HQ units have a 20% points reduction Aren't your HQ's already cheap? Dark eldar have to pay like 100 pts after gear. Dark eldar need way cheaper HQ's but dunno about guard.
>Orders become more versatile Somewhat. They're ok but could use more.
>Priests regain access to the Evisicrator Sure.
>Storm Troopers get a 20% points reduction Ok.
>Hellguns become S4 AP3 Assault 3 Points reduction or better guns but not both.
>Volleyguns become S5 AP3 Assault 6 Same with above and an assault 6 gun on infantry is pretty nuts. Splinter cannons are salvo and shoot 6 ap 5 poisoned shots for like 10-15 pts each.
>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP Too much. Grotesques are T5, 3 wounds, rampage, FnP, with flesh gauntlets (6's cause instant death but otherwise counts as poisoned) and 6+ armor for 35 pts and they're considered good. Melee is not guard's strength so it should be at best 25 ppm if not higher if you want all that.
>Bullgryns drop to 28-30 PPM and gain a 3+ save, FNP and modular loadout options Do they not already have a 3+ save or do they need to lock up to do so? I expect no higher than 35 pts or 30 pts if they get more melee options.
>Ratlings become somewhat useful Agreed.
>Sentinels have a 5-10 point reduction in cost I guess.
>Hellhound chassis drop in price by 50% It's been a while since i saw the cost but i remember hellhounds and banewolves being decent.
>GW listens to the communities ideas and advice about what to do with Rough Riders... Or just squats them I actually wanted some in 5th. I think it was the only thing i could think of to handle necrons or possibly tau at the time. They could use some love.
>Leman Russ chassis drop in price by between 15% to 30%, chassis dependent Maybe.
>Leman Russ chassis become 4HP models and regain Lumbering Behemoth No to 4 HP but yes to lumbering behemoth.
>All vehicles gain the ability to become veterans (+1 BS) for 10 points That would actually be pretty interesting esp. for the punisher, vanquisher and any tank that fires off a few shots that are highly dependent on BS.
>The Manticore and Basilisk come down in price by about 20% Never used either and dunno what happened.
>The Deathstrike becomes SD with a +2 on the table Absolutely. Void Raven should also shoot out str 10 ap 1 or Str D as well with the void mine at least and void lances hopefully. Also increase blast size for void mine. Hopefully deathstrike has a big template too.
>Griffons, Bombards and Medusas return Cutting off a bunch of the guard units was bs. However what purpose do they have that the other guard artillery can't already fulfill esp. wyverns?
>The Vanquisher becomes an actual tank killer and monster killer.
>No more Gets Hot on the Executioner Agreed that was a total crap move on GW's part.
>Hydras become good against ground targets again and drop in price Don't know enough about hydras but be glad you have some dedicated AA in your army. Dark eldar get 2 flyers for AA and they're not good at that job.
>Baneblade chassis become part of the army Still of the idea super-heavies and gargantuan have no place in regular 40k. Seriously without either the imbalance would drop considerably.
>Malcador and Machirus tanks become part of the army and can be used in the place of Baneblades in formations Same as above.
>Formations that are actually worth a damn and do cripple your wallet and army to bring Yes but the only good dark eldar formations (ones that do anything) are all in the covens book. Our armies both need some love.
>New models that actually look decent Eh i think the guard got some nice looking models. The bane mask bullgryns maybe aren't too hot but i think guard vehicles can look nice. I am also blessed because if it's one thing GW can do really well aesthetically it's making nice elf/eldar models for each of those separate factions including dark eldar (though harlie masks on all harlie units looks stupid to me). Honestly aesthetics is the least i worry about with guard and dark eldar but more with marine armies (centurions and dreadknights) which i give no ****s about because i hate most marines (dark angels might be an exception).

What we will probably get though will be:
>A 10% to 20% pints increase across the board (because Guard still occasionally beat Marines)
>Leman Russ tanks become AV 13/12/10 (because Marine tanks do not have good armour so why should Guard)
>Battlecannons become S7 and Earthshakers S8, and both become AP4 (because Marines should not be vulnerable to heavy ordnance at all, even when caught in the open)
>Lasguns become S2 (after all, Hellguns are S3)
>A new, poorly named, shoddily designed and completely useless model that we didnt ask for

My opinions in bold as a current dark eldar and previous guard player in 5th.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

the guard theme however IS "massed waves of dudes" yeah I agree for a lot of people it's not a very feesable set up, but turning them into a small elite units build runs the risk of "space marine scouts... the army!"

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

Even from the perspective of playing against them, those massive infantry lines just take too damn long to do anything. Massed infantry guard just aren't fun for anyone.

The guard do face a huge conundrum. They have to be individually weaker than the astrates and most xenos, but this means that you'll need to field a lot of them in order to make them work. This is expensive and time consuming to collect, and not much fun to step up and play with or against.

I think one way around it could be to make armoured and mechanised lists more viable. It bugs me that the leman russ isn't featured more in the game, when you look at the massive land armies of WW2 with their legions of tanks. If they made the tanks the main focus and the infantry secondary, people might feel more comfortable collecting them. I'm sure painting up a dozen or so tanks is way more fun than painting hundreds of infantry.

If done right, a good army could be a tank commander, two to three squadrons of leman ruses and a single platoon worth of mechanised infantry with some air support.

One idea I had knocking around was to allow the transports of platoons to squadron up, and the infantry squads in those transports can join together during the game. So you could have a whole platoons worth of infantry in a squadron of chimeras, and when they reach their objective they bail out, "mob up" and become the classic combined infantry mob.

Just my ramblings on the subject.

It is Astra Militarum not guard now.

I would not get your hopes up. GW will continue the nerf train AM. Not out of the realm of possibility:

Remove orders to “streamline play” in 8th edition.

Creed and Kell removed because some named character must be removed and they died on Cadia, which doesn’t exist anymore.

Increase the cost of the Chimera by 30 points.

Increase cost of Vendettas by 30 points.

Remove shred from Wyverns and give it a minimum range of 24”.

Ogryns: at the start of the game roll a D6. On a 1, you lose the game.

Make it so Leman Russ can only fire one gun per turn and then they are removed from play.

On a roll of a 1 the Deathstrike explodes at strength D apocalyptic large blast.

Have a formation that requires 200 guardsmen that removes objective secured… drat we already did that!

Fluffwise, the AM continue to get creamed in the fluff and are absorbed into the Tau empire. Leman Russes are replaced by Riptides. God Emperor Guilliman after ascending to the Golden Throne, saves the day with his sword and kills a Stormsurge in one hit. The Tau bow to his might and are absorbed into the Order Grand Alliance Faction along with Aeldari (no longer Eldar) who were already there since they helped create God Emperor Guilliman. The Astra Militarum become imperial again and are still gak except now AM can take Riptides and Stormsurges instead of tanks. Aeldari farseers replace command squads. Really AM are just reduced to conscript human waves since that is all they are good at and vehicles remain utter gak, but they have their place under the Tau, Aeldari, and Guilliman in the new Imperium Secundus.

The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

On top of this, they require a great deal of time to paint, a great deal of money to buy, and a great deal of time to play, since moving 300 models is a slow and laborious process.

Optimistically, id like to see themed formations and detachments introducing the variety and efficacy the guard deserves, with a wide range of new models introduced through campaign sets to boost interest in the faction, but i know that GW lacks either the will or the ability to do them right, so I expect the guard to continue their slow slide into obscurity.

 Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

This is in my opinion the absolute crux problem that the guard has. In order for a plucky human to be effective he needs to use his head not his brawn. The mechanics do not give guardsman any real advantage for thinking cleverly, so you have to rely on numbers and statistics rather than actual tactics.

 Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Maybe the next edition will go in that direction, but I think I have a better shot of winning the lotto =(

Fafnir wrote:

Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

Short term, this is probably the solution. Long term, i'd like to see these systems in the main rules, as there's no real reason only the guard can do this. Once those rules are in place, the orders system is actually a pretty good idea for how to allow officers (and thus players) to augment their troops behavior, while showcasing the guards hierarchical structure.

A major cause of the problems the guard face is, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, is that the game has gotten too "mythic". Everything is about deathstars, super-heavies, and USR combinations because there's no finesse to anything. The best defense is now the same as the best offense; Kill everything before it can attack you.

In the face of wraithlords, knight titans, riptides, and the many varieties of deathstars, infantry serve no purpose since even "elite" infantry like space marines can be wiped out in a single phase with little to no way to respond. This would be less of a problem if these units were treated like the centerpieces they are, being limited to 1 (maybe even 2) per player and assigned objectives and victory conditions for damaging or destroying them to offset their destructive power, but instead they're treated like regular units.

In order for the guard and other horde armies like orks and tyranids to really get back into the game, the rules and releases need to refocus on the role of regular infantry.

GW thinks no one wants to play with infantry because infantry are intrinsically boring. Rather, no one wants to play with infantry because they can't do anything besides sit on an objective and use a special weapon.

Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!). As you've said, infantry has become nothing more than pointless chaff in the current state of the game. GW constantly pushing the game bigger and bigger into All Apocalypse All the Time means that so much firepower just becomes necessary for the sake of even moving things along. The entire game needs to be rebuilt with a smaller, more intimate scale in mind.

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

Wow. That's...

Even some people at GW HQ still play 8th.

I'm reading a lot of great ideas here.

They should really try to get back to basics with regards to their attitudes towards basic infantry. These should be the bread and butter! I do think that 40k itself needs an overhaul before the guard can be fixed but the ideas expressed here are steps in the right direction.

Well it would now appear that Catachan is about to get screwed over big time as well as cadia. Rumours lit that a massive void whale is heading straight for it with a large ork waaagh in tow.

So glad I just invested in a platoon of Jungle Fighters after cadia blew up to diversify a bit.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

Which is great if you're building a diorama, but in the space of a game, it renders things nearly unplayable. Movement trays are fine and dandy until you realize that a lot of 40k maps will involve maps with some wildly varied terrain where trays just can't properly traverse, in addition to shifts in formation to match the situation.

If I ever get into that army

That's the thing. It all sounds fine and dandy, until you actually have to deal with it (or even fight it, which is an absolute waste of 6 hours to get a god damn game in).

Not to mention the gargantuan task of even painting such a force. I spend around 4 hours on each of my Kriegsmen, not including any modifications that have to be made (because I sure as hell am not going to buy each plasma gun from Forgeworld). And as much as I love my little Kriegers, painting too much of one thing can be exhausting, especially if you intend on making them actually look good. Especially when each guardsman is effectively worthless on the actual tabletop.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

Wow. That's...

Even some people at GW HQ still play 8th.

on the other hand, I can understand why the GW manager would limit his gaming tables to people playing "presently supported games"

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

 Arbitrator wrote:

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

AM has no need for more bodys ... there is not much difference between 100 lasguns and 150 lasguns

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

They should bump Conscripts up a smidge and keep them as the option for people who want to drown the enemy in bodies. Meanwhile, regular Guardsmen/Infantry Platoons should be closer to the Solar Auxilia, albeit with slightly worse stats and equipment. It would still mean the Imperial Guard field a fair few more bodies, but both newbies and existing players in larger point games aren't forced to ram human bodies down field like they're Tyranid Gaunts.

I've never seen the Imperial Guard as a horde army. They're somewhere close to one, particularly if you build it that way, but they've always been much closer to a combined arms kit, The problem is that they've ramped the Tau up to such hilarious levels that they're probably struggling to figure out exactly 'what' the Imperial Guard's niche is.

AM has no need for more bodys ... there is not much difference between 100 lasguns and 150 lasguns

This really can't be stressed enough. Lasguns are horrendously bad. And while it does make for a fun bit of 40k humour, it also makes for some bad gameplay. Every guard squad serves as little more than wound markers for its special weapons, as no matter the number, a lasgun can never be used with effect.

 Fafnir wrote:
Which is great if you're building a diorama, but in the space of a game, it renders things nearly unplayable. Movement trays are fine and dandy until you realize that a lot of 40k maps will involve maps with some wildly varied terrain where trays just can't properly traverse, in addition to shifts in formation to match the situation.

If I ever get into that army

That's the thing. It all sounds fine and dandy, until you actually have to deal with it (or even fight it, which is an absolute waste of 6 hours to get a god damn game in).

Not to mention the gargantuan task of even painting such a force. I spend around 4 hours on each of my Kriegsmen, not including any modifications that have to be made (because I sure as hell am not going to buy each plasma gun from Forgeworld). And as much as I love my little Kriegers, painting too much of one thing can be exhausting, especially if you intend on making them actually look good. Especially when each guardsman is effectively worthless on the actual tabletop.

Movement strips, not trays.
You can always have straight lines of guardsmen and re-arrange them in the field.
Either way, if I played Guard, I would have a solution, because I always find one.

I don't even paint my current army, and clearly I wouldn't paint so many annoying guardsmen, so indeed I can see how expensive or time-intensive it can be.

But still, you don't want to betray the fluff just because "it's too hard".

How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

So I've been thinking. A good start for a more fluffy army would be 3 different FOCs. First is the "Tank Company". 2 HQ slots and 6 Heavy Support. 1 HQ mandatory and 1 Troops mandatory. The only HQ available is the tank commander and all Heavy choices are available, although your mandatory has to be a Leman Russ squad.

Next is the standard "Infantry company". 2 more Troops than a CAD but -1 elites and -1 fast attack. You only need 1 HQ and 1 Troops (so that you can play small games using one large platoon). You aren't allowed more veteran squads than platoons.

Finally is the "Armored Company". No Fast Attack but +1 Heavy Support and +2 Troops. Your only compulsory Troops are veterans and all of your troops have to take chimeras. No footslogging infantry is allowed.

I'm very bad at writing rules so I didn't come up with anything. There would be bonuses.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
So I've been thinking. A good start for a more fluffy army would be 3 different FOCs. First is the "Tank Company". 2 HQ slots and 6 Heavy Support. 1 HQ mandatory and 1 Troops mandatory. The only HQ available is the tank commander and all Heavy choices are available, although your mandatory has to be a Leman Russ squad.

That's basically the Tank Company formation...?

Next is the standard "Infantry company". 2 more Troops than a CAD but -1 elites and -1 fast attack. You only need 1 HQ and 1 Troops (so that you can play small games using one large platoon). You aren't allowed more veteran squads than platoons.

Nope. There's no limitations like that in any other armies, so no.

I've long advocated for a 1:1 ratio of Scouts to SM and things like that, but it just won't work.

Finally is the "Armored Company". No Fast Attack but +1 Heavy Support and +2 Troops. Your only compulsory Troops are veterans and all of your troops have to take chimeras. No footslogging infantry is allowed.

Why would you take away Fast Attacks?

Fast Attack is where Sentinels are. And Sentinels are absolutely 100% fluffy for an Armored Company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

Then you play it. I've ran the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and it just is wildly inflexible and irritating/vexing to play with.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Except they're not powerful. By any stretch of the imagination.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

Tanks suck right now, not because of the Leman Russes(which are wildly overpointed as it stands right now), but because of the vehicle rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

A Radium style rule.

6s cause an additional Wound, because of the heat from the laser blast or something like that.

Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

ExFideFortis wrote:
Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

morgoth wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

Well I disagree.

I want to see 660 models, I want to see real fething Imperial Guard.

If I ever get into that army, I'll have legions of noname nobodies who'll just get crushed in masse because that's their whole purpose in life. (by the way, movement strips are a thing you know.. even in 40k).

I'd rather they don't make the IG more powerful per head than it already is.

Also, I would like their tanks to be shrunk in points and maybe even downgraded a little, so that hey may be more numerous, more "we suck but there's a lot of us".

It doesn't scream "Mechanical Division" when you have about 10 tanks on the table.

And here we have one of the major issues the Guard face: Other factions players.

You disagree, good sir, because to your perspective the Guard army is all about the horde of MORE MANZ THANZ YOUZ LOLZ! In reality the Guard is a combined arms army similar to many WW2 fighting units. We are not a horde army, and this cannot be stressed enough.
Now you see, your perspective of the Guard as a whole is wrong, and your ideas for "fixing" our army are even worse than that. You are talking about making Guardsmen cheaper, but at 5 points per head (6 if you bring Veterans which you do) they cannot really conceivably get any cheaper than they already are, and even if they did then your average Guardsman would have to be a mere 2 points per model (3 or 4 if Veteran) to be anywhere near viable with their current stats. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.
What about tanks. Well, you want to make them worse. That is NOT the answer by any stretch of the imagination, especially as they are already bad for their points cost as it is. "But make them cheaper so you can spam them" I hear you cry, but this is not a viable strategy. If anything Leman Russ need to become more powerful AND cheaper to be anywhere near viable again.

Then we come to the crux of the matter: "If I ever get into that army". You do not even PLAY the Imperial Guard, and yet you seem to think that your rather stupid suggestion is a great fix for our army, despite what everyone else has said. You say that you would run thousands of Infantry models on the board, hundreds of support units. Have you any idea how stupid that is? Have you ever tried to collect and build that big of an army? No, you have not. Just buying that many models is beyond the budget of most players, and assembling and painting that vast a sum of near identical figures to any level of tabletop standard takes so long that in the end you find yourself just wanting to pack it in.
And once you have done this herculean task you then have the issue of transporting them to the store, a job that requires a car and several large boxes, before youset up. Setting up will take the better part of an hour, and the chances are that you will struggle to get everything into your deployment zone. And then when you have done so you had better pray that your opponent has no blast weapons, otherwise your army will be removed before it can even do anything.

No, horde Guard is the wrong way to go. However judging by your attitude I am going to guess that you play one of the big three: Marines, Tau or Eldar.
you have no idea, and until you have been here you never will. Wait until your finely painted infantry are reduced to the status of glorified wound markers and your big hitters are laughable, and then come back to us.

On a brighter note, there is one thing that 40K really needs: To come back down in scale so that infantry are viable once again. Look at Bolt Action, a platoon scale game with one or two AFV's operating in a sea of Infantry. It works. We need something like that, a game that focuses on Infantry supported by a couple of vehicles and with the big things left out for specified Apocalypse matches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Look, stop showing your ignorance and go and read up on the Guard fluff. Dan Abnett's books are a good starting point

Blobs with psyker support, artillery, and air cav is the way to go. The tanks are mostly junk. Not enough dakka.

morgoth wrote:
I want to see 660 models

A barebones Emperor's Shield Infantry Company is 174 models and can be expanded to be up to 549 models. You can legally play this as a single detachment if you so wish. Fully expanded and kitted out it is well over 4500 points.

If nobody else wants to play that, maybe you should think on WHY they don't want to play it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.

What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen... I pulled out the old plastic RT IG bitz bag the other day and started assembling bodies. Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many, two 30-man blobs is usually sufficient (1500-1850 points).

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

ExFideFortis wrote:Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Hell, even a lot of the forces that are known employ mass waves of infantry are known for more than that. While Krieg might be known first and foremost for their willingness to sacrifice huge numbers of men at once, they're also similarly known for having fantastic stormtroopers, cavalry, and artillery.

morgoth wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Guard are not defined by massive waves of chaff infantry. That strategy is employed by some Guard forces but there are many many other strategies employed (Steel Legion, Tanith, Catachan, Elysian). In fact the majority of fluff regiments are not built on human wave tactics. Due to this fact, not to mention how terribly human waves translate to the tabletop, there is absolutely no reason a new Guard codex should be defined by such things.

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Learn your fluff. The average conscript might be weak and throw away, but a Stormtrooper is some seriously badass stuff, and physical modifications aside, capable of going toe-to-toe with a space marine. Guard infantry ranges all over the place in terms of quality.

 master of ordinance wrote:

And here we have one of the major issues the Guard face: Other factions players.

You disagree, good sir, because to your perspective the Guard army is all about the horde of MORE MANZ THANZ YOUZ LOLZ! In reality the Guard is a combined arms army similar to many WW2 fighting units. We are not a horde army, and this cannot be stressed enough.
Now you see, your perspective of the Guard as a whole is wrong, and your ideas for "fixing" our army are even worse than that. You are talking about making Guardsmen cheaper, but at 5 points per head (6 if you bring Veterans which you do) they cannot really conceivably get any cheaper than they already are, and even if they did then your average Guardsman would have to be a mere 2 points per model (3 or 4 if Veteran) to be anywhere near viable with their current stats. At this point most Guard players will just laugh and throw the towel in because bringing (let alone owning) that many Guardsmen is ludicrous.
What about tanks. Well, you want to make them worse. That is NOT the answer by any stretch of the imagination, especially as they are already bad for their points cost as it is. "But make them cheaper so you can spam them" I hear you cry, but this is not a viable strategy. If anything Leman Russ need to become more powerful AND cheaper to be anywhere near viable again.

Then we come to the crux of the matter: "If I ever get into that army". You do not even PLAY the Imperial Guard, and yet you seem to think that your rather stupid suggestion is a great fix for our army, despite what everyone else has said. You say that you would run thousands of Infantry models on the board, hundreds of support units. Have you any idea how stupid that is? Have you ever tried to collect and build that big of an army? No, you have not. Just buying that many models is beyond the budget of most players, and assembling and painting that vast a sum of near identical figures to any level of tabletop standard takes so long that in the end you find yourself just wanting to pack it in.
And once you have done this herculean task you then have the issue of transporting them to the store, a job that requires a car and several large boxes, before youset up. Setting up will take the better part of an hour, and the chances are that you will struggle to get everything into your deployment zone. And then when you have done so you had better pray that your opponent has no blast weapons, otherwise your army will be removed before it can even do anything.

No, horde Guard is the wrong way to go. However judging by your attitude I am going to guess that you play one of the big three: Marines, Tau or Eldar.
you have no idea, and until you have been here you never will. Wait until your finely painted infantry are reduced to the status of glorified wound markers and your big hitters are laughable, and then come back to us.

On a brighter note, there is one thing that 40K really needs: To come back down in scale so that infantry are viable once again. Look at Bolt Action, a platoon scale game with one or two AFV's operating in a sea of Infantry. It works. We need something like that, a game that focuses on Infantry supported by a couple of vehicles and with the big things left out for specified Apocalypse matches.

I play Eldar and I have 30.000 points of them.
I don't know if that's big enough to you.

What I'm saying about armor is that even if it were to be made stronger, it would need to be cheaper in order for it to look like a mechanized division.

If elite armies can bring more tanks than you, then you fail at being mech-AM.

That's it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Still, they are expected to suck balls compared to space marines and be vastly more numerous.

Look, stop showing your ignorance and go and read up on the Guard fluff. Dan Abnett's books are a good starting point

Do you mean that there are some books somewhere, that describe the guard being so good as to be able to not suck balls compared to space marines?
Or do you mean that the imperium does not have billions of guardsmen?

I don't know... it seems to me like AM are supposed to be somewhat weak, normal humans, destined to be cannon fodder.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
How do you fix lasguns so that they manage to remain 'weak' and yet manage to actually inflict some damage? I've been pondering that question for years.

Do you give them more shots or do you increase their power? Personally, if they bumped them up to strength 4 whilst keeping them at AP: -, that might make them useful whilst keeping them weak. But I'm just brainstorming.

Flanking an enemy should provide a bonus to strength, number of shots, ballistic skill, or AP.

A bunch of soldiers shooting at each other from cover typically don't take each other out as quickly, but if you send a light, and quick fire team focused on flanking the enemy, then they can clear the position in a few seconds.

In short, standing there and firing at an enemy isn't going to be effective and shouldn't be. In a one on one fight against a typical enemy, the guard should lose, but if the guard employ tactics they should be able to decimate the opposing force.

In other words, the guard player should be rewarded for advancing his forces in a tactical manner, and the enemy punished for over extending or ignoring a potential threat.

This system would also allow for a more organic narrative as it would allow otherwise weak units to become heroes if played correctly.


Personally I think riflemen in general are ignored in the 40k ruleset. Bolters aren't really powerful either sadly.

All the people complaining about poor basic weapons and weak hordes of infantry need to ask themselves why they are even pondering playing IMPERIAL GUARD ( get out of here with that AM nonsense! ). I mean seriously, if you want elite, go for Space Marines. If they are "too elite", then your gripe should be about Storm Troopers being so damn expensive even though they lost standard wargear, wargear options and special abilities with the new codex.

Guard are supposed to be challenging. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

@ master of ordinance

You're absolutely right about Leman Russes. They should cheaper and easier to field. Maybe even better too. A full armoured company with some infantry and air/artillery support should be able to fit into 1800pts.

Now I think that 40k itself needs an overhaul but if we where working in the current system, give a vanquisher cannon instant death. That's a Death Star killer right there. Also, since the Eradicator isn't as good as a Hellhound it needs a boost. Maybe one of those radiation effects that reduce toughness? Oh, that would be pretty good actually.

CplPunishment wrote:
All the people complaining about poor basic weapons and weak hordes of infantry need to ask themselves why they are even pondering playing IMPERIAL GUARD ( get out of here with that AM nonsense! ).

It literally says Imperial Guard almost every instance in the book. It even says something to the effect of "Astra Militarum is the High Gothic name used for the forces of the Imperial Guard".

Getting bent out of shape about people referring to it as such is pretty petty.

I mean seriously, if you want elite, go for Space Marines. If they are "too elite", then your gripe should be about Storm Troopers being so damn expensive even though they lost standard wargear, wargear options and special abilities with the new codex.

Except Stormtroopers didn't lose anything they haven't had since the post-Doctrines book.

In fact, they actually gained with the addition of the Hotshot Volley Gun.

People don't want Guard to be able to roll up and get into CC with Greater Daemons and win. They want there to be an actual purpose behind the quantity of troops. As it stands now, all it amounts to is more dice to roll.

Guard are supposed to be challenging. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

This kind of attitude is ridiculous.

Guard aren't "supposed to be challenging". They're supposed to be an army that is built around static firepower and armour.
NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY WORKS IN 40K RIGHT NOW WHEN PLAYED AS GUARD.

Tanks? Glanced to death.
Infantry? Lol, okay. Upgrading them with any weapons means you're paying Space Marine prices.

This isn't a case of "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen". It's a case of the house burning down around the kitchen.

Flanking an enemy should be a rule for everyone. It should be in the core rules.

IMO, to fix our lack of power with the infantry, we should have a bonus when 2 or more units are shooting at the same target. I dont know what kind of bonus could be balanced.


Ratlings should have a move-shoot-move rule. Now the can move after shooting but if the hide they will not shoot in the next turn because they have heavy 1 weapons.

Rough Riders shoud have T4 S4+ in order to live enough to do something.

And since our codex was released, there are much more MC. LR Vanquisher should be D force to deal with them. A single no-blast shoot per turn is not OP, IMO.
And it should have +1BS or to be twin linked in order to hit something.

And Regular Taurox should be fast.

Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

And rough riders always looked so unbearably stupid to non-guard players I would bet.

Why did you bring your bretonnians to a 40k game?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like them. Don't you think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like the. Don't uou think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

Ask anyone who had units of Stormtroopers, Veterans, or Guard infantry with Lasgun/Hellgun armed Sergeants how they feel about the current books.

Short answer? I don't care. They can get over it.
They're legacy options that were kept to maintain a "certain number of options" in those slots, but in reality do nothing but hold back development time that could be used to make something actually thoughtful and interesting.

Something that needs to be understood right here and now is this:
Guard, as an army, need a dramatic restructuring and reconcepting. It won't come from us keeping stupid crap like Ratlings and Rough Riders around.

It will come from us accepting that Fast Attack slots aren't strictly for "things that go fast". It's a perfect slot for Tarantula Sentry Guns, for example, given that TSGs have the capability to be airdropped into position.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

I'd much, much rather try to fix essentially laughably weak units than lose even more variety. For example, I like MoO's suggestions for Ogryns: point cost reduction and FnP. 20 points with FnP would certainly be too cheap, though. I think 30 is more than fair for 3 wound T5 models with FnP. Similarly, I hate how Bullgryns are forced to replace both their shield and their weapon together. If I could pay for just the power mauls but keep the slab shields, I'd be in heaven (but of course they also need the FnP/10 pt price drop that the unarmored ones need).

What could be done for Ratlings? Perhaps extra range, and either Stealth or Shrouded. Boom, low profile unit in your backfield ruins that are your anti-MC and hard to see, let alone shoot at.

I think cavalry should get similar treatment to bikes. Either an extra wound or +1T seems sensible to me. Since horses can't Jink (for now ), they need something unique that gives them their own distinct advantages, maybe eliminate difficult and dangerous terrain for them. But of course, that's more of an issue with the unit type than the unit itself.

If there can be no Rough Rider buff, put some guardsmen on damn motorcycles, slimmer and less klunky than those silly marine bikes. That could vie for the coolest looking IG model available.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

I'd much, much rather try to fix essentially laughably weak units than lose even more variety. For example, I like MoO's suggestions for Ogryns: point cost reduction and FnP. 20 points with FnP would certainly be too cheap, though. I think 30 is more than fair for 3 wound T5 models with FnP. Similarly, I hate how Bullgryns are forced to replace both their shield and their weapon together. If I could pay for just the power mauls but keep the slab shields, I'd be in heaven (but of course they also need the FnP/10 pt price drop that the unarmored ones need).

The best fix for Bullgryn with Slab Shields is to make their Grenadier Gauntlets have a special rule associated with them, ala the Death Jester's Biotoxin rounds for his Shuriken Cannon.

Right now, the fact that the GG is Blast preventing Overwatch is ridiculous. It's a flipping Frag Grenade fired out of a tube, not a tank cannon.

What could be done for Ratlings? Perhaps extra range, and either Stealth or Shrouded. Boom, low profile unit in your backfield ruins that are your anti-MC and hard to see, let alone shoot at.

You know what else could be done there?
Bring back actual Guard Sniper Teams like the way that Catachans had them and Elysians have them now.

I think cavalry should get similar treatment to bikes. Either an extra wound or +1T seems sensible to me. Since horses can't Jink (for now ), they need something unique that gives them their own distinct advantages, maybe eliminate difficult and dangerous terrain for them. But of course, that's more of an issue with the unit type than the unit itself.

If there can be no Rough Rider buff, put some guardsmen on damn motorcycles, slimmer and less klunky than those silly marine bikes. That could vie for the coolest looking IG model available.

Yeah, no.

You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

Now, if you want to argue for more "nontraditional" stuff for Guard? I'm down for that.

I would love Hornet Biker Teams in FA, where they have no real weapons beyond a "deployable scanner".

Deployable Scanner:
During a Hornet Biker Team's Movement phase, they can select a position near where they moved. They can then place a Scanner Post at that location.

A Scanner Post is a piece of Battlefield Debris with T6 and 4W with a 3+ Armor Save and the special rule of "Sensor Net".

Sensor Net: Enemy units within a 12" range of a Sensor Net cannot claim the benefits of Stealth and/or Shrouded when in Cover or Jinking.
If an enemy unit is within 12" of multiple Scanner Posts, they also cannot claim a Cover Save from area terrain.

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

 don_mondo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

You understand her point, yes?

You stopped counting when you hit 100, but you wouldn't ever want to field that many.

This is exactly the issue with the Guard as it stands right now. We have formations and bonuses for taking huge amounts of infantry, but what's the point? It's like training a parrot to curse, it's an entertaining but ultimately pointless exercise.

 Kanluwen wrote:


You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

And yet, we used to have motorcycle IG... I've still got mine. And my IG landspeeders...

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

And yet, we used to have motorcycle IG... I've still got mine. And my IG landspeeders...

Good for you.

We don't have them now though, and bringing them back as anything beyond noncombat units would be a perfect example of "Missing the Point".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

You understand her point, yes?

You stopped counting when you hit 100, but you wouldn't ever want to field that many.

This is exactly the issue with the Guard as it stands right now. We have formations and bonuses for taking huge amounts of infantry, but what's the point? It's like training a parrot to curse, it's an entertaining but ultimately pointless exercise.

ahhhh, nope, guess I missed it. Then again, my goal is to build and paint an entire IG force org, maxed out. Kinda like my buddy that has an entire Smurf Chapter... And by not wanting to field that many I meant the 660, not the 100. I've fielded 100 or more on multiple occasions.

I just want a veteran driver option for the chimeras when used by a veteran squad.

Veteran Driver: 10 points; Chimera gains fast (after moving, roll a d6, on a 1, vehicle becomes mobilized and loses 1 hull point)

I'd miss Ratlings if they were removed. It's not their fault really. The problem with them is that 40k can't do snipers very well in it's current form. Give them camo gear and snare mines for free, so they get +2 to their cover save . And vox casters and a unit leader to help out with orders.

The regular unarmored Ogyrns should be repurposed into a shooting unit. This would be as easy as doubling the range of their ripper guns, redesigning them into machine gun type devices rather than shotguns.

Also, shouldn't we look at the Tau for ideas on how to make the IG better? Supporting Fire and Coordinated Fire for example?

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like the. Don't uou think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

Ask anyone who had units of Stormtroopers, Veterans, or Guard infantry with Lasgun/Hellgun armed Sergeants how they feel about the current books.

Short answer? I don't care. They can get over it.
They're legacy options that were kept to maintain a "certain number of options" in those slots, but in reality do nothing but hold back development time that could be used to make something actually thoughtful and interesting.

Something that needs to be understood right here and now is this:
Guard, as an army, need a dramatic restructuring and reconcepting. It won't come from us keeping stupid crap like Ratlings and Rough Riders around.

It will come from us accepting that Fast Attack slots aren't strictly for "things that go fast". It's a perfect slot for Tarantula Sentry Guns, for example, given that TSGs have the capability to be airdropped into position.

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'd miss Ratlings if they were removed. It's not their fault really. The problem with them is that 40k can't do snipers very well in it's current form. Give them camo gear and snare mines for free, so they get +2 to their cover save . And vox casters and a unit leader to help out with orders.

The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

The regular unarmored Ogyrns should be repurposed into a shooting unit. This would be as easy as doubling the range of their ripper guns, redesigning them into machine gun type devices rather than shotguns.

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

Also, shouldn't we look at the Tau for ideas on how to make the IG better? Supporting Fire and Coordinated Fire for example?

The big problem there is you end up with people getting lazy and just wanting to copy/paste those.

Supporting Fire is something that realistically should just be attached to Overwatch though.
Coordinated Fire is something which could be a "High Commander" order.

You want real ideas as to how to make the IG better?
Take their Start Collecting formation special rules and add them into the army period.

Mobile Cover: Infantry models from this Formation that are within 6" of the Armoured Shield's Leman Russ receive a 4+ Cover Save.

Hellrain Reinforcements: Each time a Hellrain Brigade's unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions is completely destroyed, you can --if its Commissar is alive--immediately place a new unit into Ongoing Reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (in terms of the number of models, weapons, and upgrades). Reinforcement units arrive from Deep Strike Reserve and count as being part of the same Formation.

Additionally, Orders being tied to Voxes would be huge.

Regimental tactics should totally be a thing. Also, vehicles not sucking would be a huge help.

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

The IG have a problem with not really having a strong design principle in the current book. How are they supposed to play? What's their path to victory?

I think there are two basic approaches: dole out enough updgrades and buffs to make them a poor man's Tau/Space Marine list... or... make them the ultimate combined arms force.

Just drop the points on everything, streamline some rules for simplicity sake, and allow an 1850 IG army to really bring an answer to everything. The answer to "are your IG mechanized or blobbed up" will be "YES!"

Keep IG BS3, keep 'em fragile. Drop all the dopey leadership tests on things like orders and war hymns, so you can make units effective, and make armies built around a couple platoons, some heavy weapon teams, mechanized vets, tanks, flier support, artillery, and psykers.

Sure, there are some tweaks I'd make:
-Grenade Launchers are Assault2 (so simple)
- LRBTs not only lose heavy and regain lumbering behemoth, but LB also confers split fire on the turret weapon, so the turret can shoot something differently from the hull/sponsons (part of me would even give the sponsons split fire at 20pts per...)
-Rough Riders gain outflank, and the ability to assault out of reserves.
- Stormtroopers lose AP3 on the hotshots, going back to AP5 with a decent price drop, but I'd give them an order to boost it back up.
-heavy weapon squads gain the "gun shield" rule, and are Toughness 5.

If you drop the price of most options, and tweak a few things, and give the IG access to enough orders, psychic powers, and specialist buffs, I think you can make an interesting army that's not just a pile of bodies or a wall of tanks.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

And the IG, in particular, have already lost a lot of options, some of which there were models for. I'm looking at you, Last Chancers and Griffon, along with my converted medusas.

There's nothing inherently wrong with rough riders, but their existence shouldn't stand in the way of more interesting units.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

Could work, but I'd prefer them remaining a stand alone unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

The older metal types certainly looked like shotguns, but the plastic ones on the current models look like machine guns to me. It wouldn't be the worst recon GW ever did.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The big problem there is you end up with people getting lazy and just wanting to copy/paste those.

Supporting Fire is something that realistically should just be attached to Overwatch though.
Coordinated Fire is something which could be a "High Commander" order.

You want real ideas as to how to make the IG better?
Take their Start Collecting formation special rules and add them into the army period.
Mobile Cover: Infantry models from this Formation that are within 6" of the Armoured Shield's Leman Russ receive a 4+ Cover Save.
Hellrain Reinforcements: Each time a Hellrain Brigade's unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions is completely destroyed, you can --if its Commissar is alive--immediately place a new unit into Ongoing Reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (in terms of the number of models, weapons, and upgrades). Reinforcement units arrive from Deep Strike Reserve and count as being part of the same Formation.

These though are far better ideas than simply copying the Tau! They're very fluffy and would really help balance the Guard. If our units are so poor that their destruction is enviable then they should be recyclable.

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

I bought some rough riders circa 3rd & 4th edition. Why does that matter? Hint: it doesn't

I don't have ratlings, but I do like the new sculpts they put out around 5th. I would like to add some to my collection some day. They would fit well in my Fen Guard army.

And you are talking about copy-pasting across factions, which is totally different from copy-pasting within a faction with necessary amendments.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

I bought some rough riders circa 3rd & 4th edition. Why does that matter? Hint: it doesn't

Actually it does. If GW themselves aren't even selling the bloody things, what's the point of them having a unit entry?

I don't have ratlings, but I do like the new sculpts they put out around 5th. I would like to add some to my collection some day. They would fit well in my Fen Guard army.

Meanwhile, the rest of us would probably like a squad for those fantastic Cadian Sniper models available in a 2 pack or the Cadian and Catachan Sniper bits in the Command Squad boxes.
C'est la vie.

And you are talking about copy-pasting across factions, which is totally different from copy-pasting within a faction with necessary amendments.

The two Start Collecting sets I posted the rules from are Astra Militarum(Mobile Cover) and Militarum Tempestus(Hellrain Reinforcements).

Totally different factions, guys!

Supporting Fire is something that I have been advocating for awhile now should just be attached to the rules for Overwatch, period, across every army.
Coordinated Fire is something that...well, there's no real way to avoid it being a "copy/paste". Guard basically got that anyways in Mont'ka where the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and the Cadian Detachments can issue "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" to every Infantry Squad within the Formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

Could work, but I'd prefer them remaining a stand alone unit.

But there's the big issue. Ratlings, like Scout Snipers and Eldar Rangers, just aren't that...interesting or special.

Scout Snipers for Marines got a bit of a shot in the arm with the Pinion Demi-Company, where Scouts grant Ignores Cover to a single unit within 9" and they grant Outflank to a unit that you hold in Reserve with them.
Eldar Rangers are...eh.

To an extent I even feel like this applies to Tau Pathfinders, although they've been given a great lynchpin role in several formations.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

The older metal types certainly looked like shotguns, but the plastic ones on the current models look like machine guns to me. It wouldn't be the worst recon GW ever did.

They're made to look like manchild proofed autoshotguns.

Not sure where the "machine gun" impression is coming from.

@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

MAKE RUSSES GREAT AGAIN!

Revert to the 2nd edition vehicles in principle.

A russ could move and fire all the weapons at once (and at different targets). No bs about reduced accuracy from ordinance (only the Demolisher cannon was move or fire)

The tanks had BS4 (hit on 3+)

Moved the same speed as a Chimera.

Russes used to be immune to small arms fire and standard unit melee.. actually Demolisher had the same AV as a Land Raider.
Without giving it 14 all around, an equivalent armour value would be something like
14 13 12 with HP 4

Oh, and did i mention that a Russ used to cost the same as two squads of guardsmen? That would be 100 points by todays costing!

You used to collect guard for the vehicle power, and infantry were meat shields / bubble wrap.


TL;DR To fix Guard, make Russes great again!
BS4
14 13 12
HP 4
Split fire on all weapons (at least the turrent cannon)
Speed = normal vehicle with the old Lumbering Behemoth rule (always fire all weapons at full BS)... at least allow flat out moves FFS a Land raider is faster
Power of the machine spirit

Speaking of machineguns, I'm still wonderng why traitor guard have access to heavy stubber for their infantry squads and Guard does have not.

For me, Heavy stubber or alternate laser weapon with S3 AP6 Assault 3 or salvo 3/3 gun for 5p as additional special option would be sufficent.
OR raise it to 10p and give it pinning...

How about we give all vehicles split fire on every weapon, since they all have crews? Power of the machine spirit on land raiders and such allows every weapon to fire twice. Then tanks become somewhat fearsome.

To 'fix' infantry....

1. Give vox casters something like the 'markerlight ability"
Let's say 'recon targeting', if another unit with a vox shoots at the same unit and pass a Ld test and then they get +1BS and Pinning. This stacks with the next unit shooting at the same target,

2. The flanking bonus to shooting "if you can draw a straight line between the firing units and through the target unit get a bonus"... perhaps grant the second unit twin-linked.

3. Give guard infantry some sort of assault buff, Maybe a Jr officer order which grants rage (+1 extra attack dice when charging) and +1 initiative, call it "affix bayonetts"
considering FrFsrF results in 3 S3 shots at close range (followed by 2 snapshots and a single S3 punch next turn when charged), 3 S3 punches in assault at higher I is not unbalanced.

4. Allow infantry blobs to unblob or blob before they move each turn, if within unit coherency... this would allow a squad to unblob and move in different directions (think 3 squads) and bring tactics from 1 and 2 to bear on the target... give incentive to have more than one vox per blob.

5. Give commissars Jr officer orders for their own unit (auto pass if they execute a model).
6. Stormtroopers to get a HS laspistol so they have 2 ccw...and WS4... maybe give HS weapons Shred.
7. Rough riders = death riders from Dkok codex (4+, 2W, 2A, re-roll dangerous terrain, 6+ FNP, stubborn.. 16p) .

1 and 2 combined with orders would suddenly become quite powerful, if you are able to use your tactics to maneuver your enemy into the perfect position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah.. and give Guard access to Grav weapons!
Maybe as an option as a Heavy Grav cannon russ turrent
Grav cannon on armoured sentinals
Grav gun as special option for storm troopers

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Just gonna point out that you might want to look up videos of the AA-12, USAS12, or the Pancor Jackhammer.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

Nay.

Psykers aren't trusted to be out of sight of a Commissar or Officer. They're not gonna get their own transport.

Now, some kind of weird Psyker strapped into a 'combat' servitor body or something like that with handlers? Totally down for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makari wins wrote:
To 'fix' infantry....

1. Give vox casters something like the 'markerlight ability"
Let's say 'recon targeting', if another unit with a vox shoots at the same unit and pass a Ld test and then they get +1BS and Pinning. This stacks with the next unit shooting at the same target,

No.

Vox-Casters aren't Markerlights. Silly.

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery gives a good bonus to Vox-Caster units. Put that in as standard.
Additionally make it so units with Vox-Casters can receive or send Orders anywhere on the field.

There's a lot more you can do from there, but if we're just bandaid patching without tearing the stuff apart first, these are the big two.

2. The flanking bonus to shooting "if you can draw a straight line between the firing units and through the target unit get a bonus"... perhaps grant the second unit twin-linked.

How does "two units shooting at the same thing" suddenly become twin-linked?

3. Give guard infantry some sort of assault buff, Maybe a Jr officer order which grants rage (+1 extra attack dice when charging) and +1 initiative, call it "affix bayonetts"
considering FrFsrF results in 3 S3 shots at close range (followed by 2 snapshots and a single S3 punch next turn when charged), 3 S3 punches in assault at higher I is not unbalanced.

It's called a Priest.

4. Give commissars Jr officer orders for their own unit (auto pass if they execute a model).

NOPE! You take Commissars, you get nothing useful.

5. Stormtroopers to get a HS laspistol so they have 2 ccw...and WS4... maybe give HS weapons Shred.

How does a Hotshot Laspistol equate to 2 CCW? Do you mean so they get the Pistol+CCW bonus?

And no, Hotshot weapons don't need Shred. They're actually performing fairly well.

6. Rough riders = death riders from Dkok codex (4+, 2W, 2A, re-roll dangerous terrain, 6+ FNP, stubborn.. 16p)

Yeah, no.

Death Riders are a unique unit. Ditch Rough Riders period, then come up with something that doesn't suck or look stupidly out of place in every non-DKoK list.

1 and 2 combined with orders would suddenly become quite powerful, if you are able to use your tactics to maneuver your enemy into the perfect position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah.. and give Guard access to Grav weapons!
Maybe as an option as a Heavy Grav cannon russ turrent
Grav cannon on armoured sentinals
Grav gun as special option for storm troopers

God no.

Make the existing weapons actually worth a crap. There's a reason why Grav is a must-have for Space Marines. Because basically every other Imperial Special/Heavy Weapon option sucks.

I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

Fixing vehicles in general will help guard on its own. Depending on how much vehicles get changed in the future will really tell what fixes the Russ and such would need as well, though I am sure it will still need some tweaks to become competitive regardless.

For some wishlisting:
Regimental Doctrines return, and maybe each of the named regiments gains a Jr Command and Senior Command order. GW still sells the models for all of the regiments anyways, even if it is metal, so I don't see why they can't at least give a nod to them.

Scions: remove the +10 point cost for existing and give them +1 leadership, but keep them at 12ppm. Cut command squad's price by 10 as well. Then maybe give some small doctrine type things for them that you choose at the list building stage. Like for example, a "Close Quarters Combat" doctrine might give +1 attack and allow you to replace hot shot lasguns with a pistol + ccw, and 2 members can buy melee special weapons. Namely just alternate ways to build them that differentiates squads from each other and gives some small buffs as well. I suppose since we are wishlisting, I'd like the hot-shot laspistol to have a slight range increase as well, as 6" is a bit short.

Ogryn: I swear in older editions they had better leadership, higher strength in melee, and cost less, albeit they had lower toughness and less attacks. Maybe drop them to 25 points, give them leadership 8 for regulars and 9 for the bone'ead, and make Bullgrins an upgrade? Maybe cost it something like 10 or 15 points to upgrade the squad to 4+ armor (that way it becomes more valuable the more Ogryn you add to the unit), and then let the Bullgrin weapons/shields be upgrades as well. I also wouldn't mind seeing Ogryn able to shoot into melee, considering they are impulsive and crude - if it seems too powerful a thing, maybe make it so rolls of "1" to hit has them shoot their own allies?

A more general thing, but I also believe Vox Casters should provide a table wide benefit. I wouldn't even mind seeing them as standard gear in a squad, and then you can pay points to give them the reroll rule it currently has.

Makari wins wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

You mean Forge World book*.

Quite honestly, if people want to "fix" Guard in assault?

Emplaced Defenses:
Guard units very rarely fight in the open or without prepared positions. Enemy units charging a squad of Imperial Guardsmen not only have to deal with the fusillade of fire from the Guardsmen as they attempt to close the distance, but also have to deal with concealed mines or other defensive measures.

If an Imperial Guard squad has remained stationary during their previous Movement phase, they can elect to begin deploying emplaced defenses. The defenses become more and more elaborate based upon how long the squad has been deploying emplaced defenses.
1-2 turns stationary: The squad deploys barbed wire and sandbags.
3-4 turns stationary: The squad deploys mines and concussion grenades.
5-6 turns stationary: The squad deploys a Tarantula Sentry Gun.

While this doesn't make them something to charge with, it does scream more of a Guard solution than "Lulz bayonets!1!".

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

That's not "passing as" a machine gun.

That thing absolutely is a machine gun.

Look at the stream of spent casings spewing from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Makari wins wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

You mean Forge World book*.

Quite honestly, if people want to "fix" Guard in assault?

Emplaced Defenses:
Guard units very rarely fight in the open or without prepared positions. Enemy units charging a squad of Imperial Guardsmen not only have to deal with the fusillade of fire from the Guardsmen as they attempt to close the distance, but also have to deal with concealed mines or other defensive measures.

If an Imperial Guard squad has remained stationary during their previous Movement phase, they can elect to begin deploying emplaced defenses. The defenses become more and more elaborate based upon how long the squad has been deploying emplaced defenses.
1-2 turns stationary: The squad deploys barbed wire and sandbags.
3-4 turns stationary: The squad deploys mines and concussion grenades.
5-6 turns stationary: The squad deploys a Tarantula Sentry Gun.

While this doesn't make them something to charge with, it does scream more of a Guard solution than "Lulz bayonets!1!".

Uhhhhhh...

Imperial Guard are standard humans.

We're not... good... at fighting in melee combat. We are too physically pathetic to be effective combatants against the rest of the galaxy.

What we are good at is inventing tools to overcome our physical helplessness. Like guns.

Imperial Guard really should be heavy on shooting and light on melee.

@ Pouncey

Exactly. I know automatic shotguns are a thing but that looks like a machine gun to me.

Also, I got this from battle for vedros:

Shoot again in the assault phase instead of assaulting (must be against the same target). Suits us to a tee.

Personally I would not mind slightly Cheaper MBT and A Grav tank.

Other then that I bring at least 100 guardsmen to a game one or 2 company commanders, x2 30 man conscripts commissar, two 20 man lascannon blobs with commissars and a regimental standard. I then fill up the rest of the army with tanks, vendettas and small storm troopers. My orders win the day and packing my men stop deep strike spam. The tanks last a lot longer behind a wall of men and most manage to get there points before dying. I do not bother with vets as my grunts do it better. I cant tell you how many time my conscripts have locked Dreadknights in combat and my commissar has gotten wounds with the power axes while my tanks and FRFSRF have killed everything else. I fight a space marine army almost every week and only win or lose by one victory point.

The guard are a balanced codex and that is the problem in a world invisible death stars, Tau riptide and storm surge spam, Jet bike spam and free drop pod/rhino/razzor back spam. GW needs to have a long hard look at rule braking Armies and tone them down. thats just my opinion though from my local store and house games.

I'd just make every unit (or the vast majority) 15% cheaper. Maybe buffs for things like ogryns but otherwise simply having more shooting, more bodies and more vehicles seems a decent counter to power creep elsewhere, and fits the fluff nicely. Admittedly I'm not an IG player but I think they do have counters to most things out there, they just need to have a little more of it to balance things.

A lot of our stuff is too expensive. You could make infantry squads 30pts, so by the time the essential upgrades are added they're around 50pts which is the most they should cost. Hell, slash the price of a Russ in half too. Make everything cheaper.

But also make it so that IG units become better when working together. Tanks giving the infantry cover saves. A vox caster can call for support instead of shooting (pick one friendly vehicle unit. It gains twin linked against the target). So you can have a tag team of an infantry squad getting cover from the tank despite being in front of it, and their vox caster makes the tank more accurate.

And just like that the postage rolls over to 1000! And within one year too.

Id love to see more unit synergies.

Things like the leman russ giving cover saves out is a good one.

Then the scout sentinels giving out move through cover to units.

Voxes be used as line of sight for barrage at the cost of not being able to take an order on the squad because radio is in use.

Standards get to look out sir as another guy won't let it fall, and give platoon standards reroll leadership for units from that platoon. Company banner grants stubborn and reroll.

Meanwhile give infantry platoons the bonus from Tyrants legion for better cover saves on the tanks at the cost of taking wounds to the squad.

The core of the guard should be it's infantry, then taking additional units gives them buffs to promote a combined arms style.

Start doing similar things to all armies and balance might make a return?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The thing is, the Imperial Guard are banned from being a combined arms military. By keeping regiments specialised, they reduce the damage a traitor regiment can do.
Infantry rebel? They have little in the way of ordnance.
Tanks rebel? Can't hold objectives well and can be outmaneuvered.
Artillery rebel? They have no defenders.
Air force rebel? They have no way to effectively hold a position.

By dividing the guard, the risk of heresy is reduced. There's a fluff reason they're organised in this way.

I remember reading this, but I can't place where I read it. It makes sense.

On the other hand I've also remember reading about combined arms IG, where a regiment would have an armored company and the commanding officer would typically assign tanks from the armored company to support the regular line companies as the situation warranted. This also makes sense.

GW has put out a lot of conflicting fluff over the years. I actually like it in the sense that the galaxy is such a big place and the humans in it generally have no idea what's going on (even if they are convinced that they do). I can totally see a high ranking IG officer being reassigned to a new sector and discovering that many regiments under his command had been breaking the rules (as far as he was concerned) by operating as combined arms units. Then those regiments might be pushed to the point of mutiny when he tries to break them up and mash them together to form "properly" divided forces.

The downside to the conflicting fluff is that people end up getting angry in real life over the conflicting information. Also, I know that for me at least stuff tends to run together and get murky over the years and I have to be careful that I'm not half-remembering something I thought would be cool as actual cannon.


As far as guardsmen just feeling like wound counters for heavy weapons, I've always kind of thought of them kind of like German infantry squads during WW2. My understanding, which I could definitely be wrong about as I'm no military historian, is that most of a German squad's firepower came from its machinegun. A big part of the regular squad member's job was to carry extra ammunition for the machine gun and act as a kind of bodyguard. It's not that the K98k rifle was useless, it was still an important part of the squad's gear, but the MG34/42 was the centerpiece. The squad was also supposed to have a submachine gun, and the squad would sometimes split into two fire teams with the MG providing suppressing fire while the other team would maneuver up to get into a good position to use their submachine gun and grenades. Again, I could be wrong and my understanding is that while this is how it was supposed to work on paper German squads often did not have everything they were supposed to have in reality.

In my head I pictured a "normal" IG squad being pretty similar in terms of the effectiveness of their weapons and their tactics, just replacing the K98k with the lasgun, the MG34 with the heavy weapon slot and the submachine gun with the special weapons slot. I put the word "normal" in quotes because different regiments behave in very different ways. I couldn't point to a single piece of fluff that completely backs up this idea, other than ye olde Codex: Cityfight rules that let the IG split ten man squads into five man teams. I liked those rules, as they made having a meltagun and a heavy bolter in the same squad make sense.


There are so many different regiments across the galaxy that I really like that there are regular IG squads, veteran squads and conscript squads to represent them. Some regiments are made up of well-trained riflemen, while others are told which end to point at the enemy and launched in human waves. Some are either really well-trained and equipped by their homeworlds or they are the hardened remnants of what was previously a much larger regiment. It's cool that all of those things can be represented. It also allows for people to have more or less models as time and money allow. As far as making sure those options are all balanced and effective on the tabletop, I don't know if that's possible or not.

I actually wish that we could take conscript squads without taking standard IG squads. For fluffy reasons if I was doing a conscript "human wave" style army I'd rather have most of the guardsmen be conscripts. I can understand why people wouldn't want to play against such an army for fear of it taking all day. When I used to run ork mobs of 20-30 boyz I would just grab the mob in both hands and move them up the board rather than carefully spacing each one. They were all in base contact, so a single large blast could potentially delete the whole mob, but it was fast and my opponents didn't hate my guts. I played casual games, and I can see how doing that would be unacceptable to a tournament player.


I don't have a huge IG army, about ~25 Catachans, ~80 Cadians and assorted vehicles. None are painted to the standard I want, but I'm waiting for 8th edition and to see if any new plastics come out before I put a lot of work into them. I'm not particularly fond of Catachans or Cadians, they're just what has been available in plastic over the years. If there are new plastics that I like I'll probably make them the focus of my collecting.

The idea of adding some sort of flanking/combined pinning fire seems good. Rewarding tactics and punishing poor plays should be the job of at least one army, and the army with almost nothing going for it deserves a gimmick of its own.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

Wow. That's...

Even some people at GW HQ still play 8th.

My local GW in michigan doesn't allow warhammer fantasy being played and the other is at least 30 mins away. If i need a fantasy fix i'd rather go somewhere that isn't a GW. Sadly this GW is only about 1-2 miles from my current place. The AoS circle-jerking tires me pretty hard esp. having to go in there and constantly be reminded how it's dead even with all the old warhammer fantasy wallpapers and such hung up around the store.

That said the store was previously run by the worst GW employee (awful person for the most part and treated some customers including myself horribly) i've seen in about 10 years of GW experience between two stores and another guy. Supposedly it had gotten a reputation for a sort of clique atmosphere. It was in rochester hills or close to it and a lot of the old players were snobs and jerks.

Sad thing is the great lakes mall store though it was more casual and had more youth it had a better atmosphere and dave was the best manager and best gw employee i've ever seen. Dunno how that horrible GW employee got transferred to the hampton village store.

So i dunno. The current manager and side employees seem ok. I just wish the main one wasn't so anti-Fantasy. Honestly i think it's because in the usa or at least nearby there must be pressure from up top to not play fantasy. I think they're more lenient in europe. Dunno about the UK but a friend made it sound like it's still not allowed at GW stores.

-------

I know about 9th age. The issue is a lot of the competitive players joined that and i didn't entirely like all of them either. I would prefer to just play 8th edition but it'd be so much easier to go to a store close to me and i don't think there is one. Keep in mind i need transportation from others to get to GW and being a mile or 2 away makes it easy but the farther it is the harder it is for me and who drives me. Otherwise i'd just play Fantasy. People have also sorta called it quits when it was no longer supported and i can't totally blame them as skaven needed new stuff and a new codex which before AoS hadn't gotten a codex since maybe '08 or '09 (GW HATES Fantasy players!). Skaven were the 2nd oldest army and had an 8 page FAQ so the rules were written like garbage. When you want to play 8th and they don't have the 8 page FAQ available anymore it's very hard. It's a shame. I wanted to play vampire counts too.

-------

Far as the imperial guard goes i think you guys are safe enough. I've heard in the latest book for all eldar that so yeah i have more room to complain than you guys. It honestly sounds like they're about to either combine all eldar factions or just straight up get rid of dark eldar. Keep in mind imperial guard are safe because they're fairly popular, there's always guard or PDF somewhere and they're pretty major as far as faction go (sisters, tau and dark eldar don't have that luxury but sadly tau being OP gives them stupid popularity that is undeserved outside of that such as in lore or aesthetics). Dark eldar possibly being squatted or 40k being AoS end times destroyed will probably declare the end of my GW gaming and hobbying experience as i've been screwed every which way by GW by now. They can turn 40k and Fantasy into counting your teeth and your toes but i'll just sigh heavily and watch from outside of a new tabletop hobby if they decide to do so.

I'd much prefer seeing buffs to the tanks tbh.

The problem with IG / AM blobs is that they are too easy for the IoM to turn into fethed up combos.

For a long time, 40-strong blobs were mostly used with Dark Angels in competitive play, and I'm afraid boosting them would make that all the more true.

Also, I'm totally jealous of AM getting cheap blobs to just bubblewrap anything, especially in Apoc, where that option just doesn't exist (unless you're Tyranid).

But that's where the problem of scale shows ... even for 15.000 points, my opponent didn't have much more than 200 guardsmen, which probably take up barely 800 points.

Maybe they should be swarms or something, like have three of them on a bike base lol

Still, I think that the ability to bring cheap bodies and make them fearless is extremely powerful by itself and any upgrades to these blobs could easily make that tool overpowered, while still leaving the AM / IG army not-that-great.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And no, Hotshot weapons don't need Shred. They're actually performing fairly well.

Hot Shot weapons are the meanest joke GW could have done to MT ... AP3 requires something that makes the weapon bad at another side ... the result was 18" and if you wnat to rapid fire 9" this is quite useless ... S3 is still a joke

This is the weapon profile MT needs ... then 12pts per model are justified!

Assault 2
24"-16" S3 AP5
16"-08" S4 AP4
08"-00" S5 AP3

AND make deep strike optional for 1-2 points to bring a scion to 10 points!

If they are getting rid of the Cadians and Catachans, who will replace them? I hope it's the Vostroyans. They're the nicest IG miniatures outside of FW and are suitably 40kish. Or maybe they'll bring out some new regiment, or dig up one of the 2nd classics. I always thought that the Praetorians could be very 40k too, with a few tweaks. If they took the redcoat uniform aesthetics and threw them into a blender with fantasy empire outriders, ww1 uniforms and 40k imperial designs they could look really awesome.

Well what do you think of adding a fluffy rule to the IG squads and conscripts

expendible, allow friendly units to fire at this unit when they are "locked in melee combat", any hits (including those from templates) are evenly distributed between friendly and enemy models (rounding down).

This would be fluffy, and give the guard a strategic option of rushing expendable troops forward to 'soak up' the enemy unit into close base to base contact and then shell them (and your own troops) with your artillery.


Or maybe just make conscripts expendable... if so
Allow basic squads in the platoon to be taken as conscripts (30p for 10)... or just allow multiple conscript squads to be taken instead of 0-1 per platoon make it 0-3... maybe even give them Ld 6... comeon basic untrained humans are less cowardly that grotz!

@Kanluwen. Practically EVERY Codex GW has ever printed has had rules for units and/or wargear upgrades that they never made sculpts for or were out of production. This Planet is a very big and diverse place--much like the Imperial guard--and yes there *are* lots of people who still use sub-optimal out of production units because they like a challenge or think it's cool. I like a challenge, and I think they look cool in my Drookian Fen Guard army (I greenstuffed kilts on them and did some head swaps). Are you really telling me that you care so little about the hard work that others put into their armies that you would push for the unnecessary removal of a unit that many people still use?

You like snipers on guardsmen? I do too. I have eight in my Catachan army. In order to put as many in my Drookian Fen Guard army, I would need to sculpt 5-10 more kilts--something I don't have time for. Halflings fit nicely with the Celtic aesthetic of my army and have tended to be the best/most cost-effective snipers in the IG. Yes, I understand that might have changed recently, but rules are fluid in this game and ratlings could get buffed.
I see nothing unreasonable with my position and I fail to see how it affects you or anyone else negatively.

And instead of removing units from the codex, how about putting older units back in. I've got Griffons still gaking on the shelf, I've got a Colossus (loved the AP3 no-cover indirect ordnance!). Those two might be available in the current IA books, don't know, because I haven't bought them and even now prefer to play single source (ie just my codex). And going farther back I have IG landspeeders and motorcycles. I would love to be able to put my old models on the table with official codex rules for them.

I have always hated it when GW decided to drop units from a codex, but... oh well.

Anyways, I'm sure Kanluwen will be along to pooh-pooh my desires but I can live with that.

CplPunishment wrote:
@Kanluwen. Practically EVERY Codex GW has ever printed has had rules for units and/or wargear upgrades that they never made sculpts for or were out of production. This Planet is a very big and diverse place--much like the Imperial guard--and yes there *are* lots of people who still use sub-optimal out of production units because they like a challenge or think it's cool. I like a challenge, and I think they look cool in my Drookian Fen Guard army (I greenstuffed kilts on them and did some head swaps). Are you really telling me that you care so little about the hard work that others put into their armies that you would push for the unnecessary removal of a unit that many people still use?

You like snipers on guardsmen? I do too. I have eight in my Catachan army. In order to put as many in my Drookian Fen Guard army, I would need to sculpt 5-10 more kilts--something I don't have time for. Halflings fit nicely with the Celtic aesthetic of my army and have tended to be the best/most cost-effective snipers in the IG. Yes, I understand that might have changed recently, but rules are fluid in this game and ratlings could get buffed.
I see nothing unreasonable with my position and I fail to see how it affects you or anyone else negatively.

I really like this. Have an exalt.

Makari wins wrote:
Well what do you think of adding a fluffy rule to the IG squads and conscripts

expendible, allow friendly units to fire at this unit when they are "locked in melee combat", any hits (including those from templates) are evenly distributed between friendly and enemy models (rounding down).

This would be fluffy, and give the guard a strategic option of rushing expendable troops forward to 'soak up' the enemy unit into close base to base contact and then shell them (and your own troops) with your artillery.!

And the reason that this rule does not apply to Chaos Cultists, Genestealer Cultists, Orks, Tryanids is?

All of the previous are much less (or even simply will not) likely to rout when they suffer such friendly fire.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Makari wins wrote:
Well what do you think of adding a fluffy rule to the IG squads and conscripts

expendible, allow friendly units to fire at this unit when they are "locked in melee combat", any hits (including those from templates) are evenly distributed between friendly and enemy models (rounding down).

This would be fluffy, and give the guard a strategic option of rushing expendable troops forward to 'soak up' the enemy unit into close base to base contact and then shell them (and your own troops) with your artillery.!

And the reason that this rule does not apply to Chaos Cultists, Genestealer Cultists, Orks, Tryanids is?

All of the previous are much less (or even simply will not) likely to rout when they suffer such friendly fire.

So make it a rule for everyone. Once upon a time we were allowed to shoot into hand-to-hand, never understood why they changed it. If I have two Guardsmen in the middle of a group of Genestealers or as happened my last game, two men fighting a BA Sanguinary Guard unit with attached characters, why wouldn't I shoot? They're dead, Jim! The old rules for random allocation were fairly simple, and for blasts/templates, just determine it based on models covered.

 don_mondo wrote:
And instead of removing units from the codex, how about putting older units back in. I've got Griffons still gaking on the shelf, I've got a Colossus (loved the AP3 no-cover indirect ordnance!). Those two might be available in the current IA books, don't know, because I haven't bought them and even now prefer to play single source (ie just my codex). And going farther back I have IG landspeeders and motorcycles. I would love to be able to put my old models on the table with official codex rules for them.

I have always hated it when GW decided to drop units from a codex, but... oh well.

Anyways, I'm sure Kanluwen will be along to pooh-pooh my desires but I can live with that.

Exactly.
GW putting forgeworld tanks in an official codex was one of the things I loved about the 5th edition Codex. The fact that I could use my vanquisher, exterminator and griffon again made up for the fact that I had to remove bolters and lasguns from my sergeants. Plus SQUADRONS.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Makari wins wrote:
Well what do you think of adding a fluffy rule to the IG squads and conscripts

expendible, allow friendly units to fire at this unit when they are "locked in melee combat", any hits (including those from templates) are evenly distributed between friendly and enemy models (rounding down).

This would be fluffy, and give the guard a strategic option of rushing expendable troops forward to 'soak up' the enemy unit into close base to base contact and then shell them (and your own troops) with your artillery.!

And the reason that this rule does not apply to Chaos Cultists, Genestealer Cultists, Orks, Tryanids is?

All of the previous are much less (or even simply will not) likely to rout when they suffer such friendly fire.

So make it a rule for everyone. Once upon a time we were allowed to shoot into hand-to-hand, never understood why they changed it. If I have two Guardsmen in the middle of a group of Genestealers or as happened my last game, two men fighting a BA Sanguinary Guard unit with attached characters, why wouldn't I shoot? They're dead, Jim! The old rules for random allocation were fairly simple, and for blasts/templates, just determine it based on models covered.

Cos that makes Tau and Eldar even more powerful? Especially since these two races are the very last ones that would do this.

We did have a brief experiment with it but also making the friendly unit being fired on take a LD test to simulate the issues this tends to cause, it was ok.

The griffon was the WORKHORSE of my army. At 75pts a piece it made me wish the were in production.

morgoth wrote:
I'd much prefer seeing buffs to the tanks tbh.

Why not both?

I mean, I love the Imperial Guard's vehicle selection. I also like their infantry unit design. They need to be BETTER, but fundamentally they are appealing.

There really should be an option to take a single platoon. For small games, just grab a few squads, some conscripts and 2 command squads.

There IS such an option. The Emperor's Shield Platoon formation.

Minimum five squads, pcs, and 1 sentinel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
315 points minimum with a scout sentinel.

Tanks are quite recent, they will not make new models of LRBT, Chimera, Sentinels... just to add some few weapon options. The same goes for Scions.
So, I dont expect grav options for these models.

I hope that the Griffon will come back because they have already sold a lot of wyverns, so, it can be time to bring the Griffon back (and to increase 20 ppm the Wyvern in order to sell undercosted Griffons).

 Bichop wrote:
Tanks are quite recent, they will not make new models of LRBT, Chimera, Sentinels... just to add some few weapon options. The same goes for Scions.

Why not? We're on the second version of the LRBT, 2nd Chimera, 3rd Sentinel, 4th 'Scion' (Stormtroopers). But yeah, just another small sprue for additional weapon options would be nice.

Changes I would make:
*Vox casters: re-roll orders within command range plus RECIEVE ORDERS OUTSIDE THIS RANGE (no reroll).
*Bring back medusa colossus and griffon
*Sentries doctrine for veterans confers stealth, scout, infiltrate, and defensive grenades for 15-20pts
*power swords 5pts, other power weapons 10 and powerfists 15. That's all they're worth in the hands of a guardsman
*edit special weapon squads so that models with a demo charge don't lose their lasgun. While we're at it, allow them to take shotguns or pistol&ccw instead of lasguns.
*go back to an armory system for giving characters wargear. *Bring back options like the stormbolter.
*Give priests back the eviscerator for 15 points plus other options they once had.
*allow any squad that can take a heavy weapons team (except heavy weapon squads) to give one guardsman a heavy flamer or heavy stubber.
*Make Storm Troopers Ld8 again. Give them access to melta bombs again. Give each one a pistol, hotshot lasgun and ccw standard. Give them infiltrate, scout and deep strike.
*give rough riders doctrinal options such as: Grenadiers:4+ save; demolitions: one demo charge and everybody has melta bombs
*Leman Russ regains Lumbering Behemoth rule
*multimelta on sentinels for 10pts. Give them back the chainsaw upgrade!
*give vanquisher a dual fire option like 3rd ed for more points of course.
*make Harker worth 55pts or reduce his cost
*return Marbo but at a higher cost
*reduce Colonel Straken's price tag
*give us back the last chancers?
*buff ratlings or make them cheaper
*reduce price of ogryns

I don't think these requests are unreasonable. What do y'all think?

CplPunishment wrote:
Changes I would make:

*Make Storm Troopers Ld8 again. Give them access to melta bombs again. Give each one a pistol, hotshot lasgun and ccw standard. Give them infiltrate, scout and deep strike.
*give rough riders doctrinal options such as: Grenadiers:4+ save; demolitions: one demo charge and everybody has melta bombs

I don't think these requests are unreasonable. What do y'all think?

Course, Meltabombs for the entire squad are nearly useless given the current rule that only allows one model to attack with them in hth. Gotta protect those knights and superheavies, don't ya know...

 don_mondo wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Changes I would make:

*Make Storm Troopers Ld8 again. Give them access to melta bombs again. Give each one a pistol, hotshot lasgun and ccw standard. Give them infiltrate, scout and deep strike.
*give rough riders doctrinal options such as: Grenadiers:4+ save; demolitions: one demo charge and everybody has melta bombs

I don't think these requests are unreasonable. What do y'all think?

Course, Meltabombs for the entire squad are nearly useless given the current rule that only allows one model to attack with them in hth. Gotta protect those knights and superheavies, don't ya know...

Good points. Perhaps the temporary solution would be to greatly reduce the cost of squad-wide anti-tank grenades?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about my other ideas?

It all looked reasonable to me, even the meltabombs, just that they are not nearly as useful any more.

Voxcasters should def allow unlimted range orders, and the LRMBTs absolutely need Lumbering Behemoth back.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Bichop wrote:
Tanks are quite recent, they will not make new models of LRBT, Chimera, Sentinels... just to add some few weapon options. The same goes for Scions.

Why not? We're on the second version of the LRBT, 2nd Chimera, 3rd Sentinel, 4th 'Scion' (Stormtroopers). But yeah, just another small sprue for additional weapon options would be nice.

I would do it but I dont think that GW thinks the same way as we do.

The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

The one advantage to whole unit melta bombs is that you can't kill the anti tank of a unit by killing the sarge.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Agreed and then some!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Far as the imperial guard goes i think you guys are safe enough. I've heard in the latest book for all eldar that

Spoiler:

Commoragh was annihilated by daemons

so yeah i have more room to complain than you guys. It honestly sounds like they're about to either combine all eldar factions or just straight up get rid of dark eldar. Keep in mind imperial guard are safe because they're fairly popular, there's always guard or PDF somewhere and they're pretty major as far as faction go (sisters, tau and dark eldar don't have that luxury but sadly tau being OP gives them stupid popularity that is undeserved outside of that such as in lore or aesthetics). Dark eldar possibly being squatted or 40k being AoS end times destroyed will probably declare the end of my GW gaming and hobbying experience as i've been screwed every which way by GW by now. They can turn 40k and Fantasy into counting your teeth and your toes but i'll just sigh heavily and watch from outside of a new tabletop hobby if they decide to do so.

My heart bleeds. No, really it does.

We are talking here about the horrific malignant that has been done to the Guard in terms of power level, playbility and viability, not boohooing about some mary sue race losing its bastion. I am sorry if I sound harsh, but quite frankly elday are just being handed buffs like no tomorrow. You have never had it hard and probably never will do - mores the pity.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Agreed and then some!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Far as the imperial guard goes i think you guys are safe enough. I've heard in the latest book for all eldar that

Spoiler:

Commoragh was annihilated by daemons

so yeah i have more room to complain than you guys. It honestly sounds like they're about to either combine all eldar factions or just straight up get rid of dark eldar. Keep in mind imperial guard are safe because they're fairly popular, there's always guard or PDF somewhere and they're pretty major as far as faction go (sisters, tau and dark eldar don't have that luxury but sadly tau being OP gives them stupid popularity that is undeserved outside of that such as in lore or aesthetics). Dark eldar possibly being squatted or 40k being AoS end times destroyed will probably declare the end of my GW gaming and hobbying experience as i've been screwed every which way by GW by now. They can turn 40k and Fantasy into counting your teeth and your toes but i'll just sigh heavily and watch from outside of a new tabletop hobby if they decide to do so.

My heart bleeds. No, really it does.

We are talking here about the horrific malignant that has been done to the Guard in terms of power level, playbility and viability, not boohooing about some mary sue race losing its bastion. I am sorry if I sound harsh, but quite frankly elday are just being handed buffs like no tomorrow. You have never had it hard and probably never will do - mores the pity.

Okay, both of you deserve being gobsmacked.

Flaming because this is about AM not your gripes on AoS and Fantasy. Plus because the dark eldar are still a thing. Yeah, Commorragh got blown to kingdom come but Vect saw it coming and built a contingency measure. Plenty of kabals are fine. Seriously, if you don't know what the hell happened, don't talk nor pull the headless chicken act out nor start threatening with leaving the hobby (not that anyone should care, honestly, it was a pretty childish comment on your part).

Master of Ordnance because your comment is about the most self-entitled thing I've ever heard once you consider that he's talking on the DARK eldar. Have things easy? Dude, they are THE worst army in the game, and have always had many issues to play. IG hasn't had the issues Deldar have had up until very recently nor has had them in the same intensity. They've always had it hard, harder than the guard by the way.

Now as for the matter at hand and after venting my unwarranted anger I'll say that my theory is that they'll introduce new plastic kits. Everyone and their mother knows that catachans and cadians are uglier than a sin, plus they are old plastics, so it's very within the realm of possibility that a new regiment takes the main mantle. Hopefully krieg or armageddon.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Agreed and then some!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Far as the imperial guard goes i think you guys are safe enough. I've heard in the latest book for all eldar that

Spoiler:

Commoragh was annihilated by daemons

so yeah i have more room to complain than you guys. It honestly sounds like they're about to either combine all eldar factions or just straight up get rid of dark eldar. Keep in mind imperial guard are safe because they're fairly popular, there's always guard or PDF somewhere and they're pretty major as far as faction go (sisters, tau and dark eldar don't have that luxury but sadly tau being OP gives them stupid popularity that is undeserved outside of that such as in lore or aesthetics). Dark eldar possibly being squatted or 40k being AoS end times destroyed will probably declare the end of my GW gaming and hobbying experience as i've been screwed every which way by GW by now. They can turn 40k and Fantasy into counting your teeth and your toes but i'll just sigh heavily and watch from outside of a new tabletop hobby if they decide to do so.

My heart bleeds. No, really it does.

We are talking here about the horrific malignant that has been done to the Guard in terms of power level, playbility and viability, not boohooing about some mary sue race losing its bastion. I am sorry if I sound harsh, but quite frankly elday are just being handed buffs like no tomorrow. You have never had it hard and probably never will do - mores the pity.

Okay, both of you deserve being gobsmacked.

Flaming because this is about AM not your gripes on AoS and Fantasy. Plus because the dark eldar are still a thing. Yeah, Commorragh got blown to kingdom come but Vect saw it coming and built a contingency measure. Plenty of kabals are fine. Seriously, if you don't know what the hell happened, don't talk nor pull the headless chicken act out nor start threatening with leaving the hobby (not that anyone should care, honestly, it was a pretty childish comment on your part).

Master of Ordnance because your comment is about the most self-entitled thing I've ever heard once you consider that he's talking on the DARK eldar. Have things easy? Dude, they are THE worst army in the game, and have always had many issues to play. IG hasn't had the issues Deldar have had up until very recently nor has had them in the same intensity. They've always had it hard, harder than the guard by the way.

Now as for the matter at hand and after venting my unwarranted anger I'll say that my theory is that they'll introduce new plastic kits. Everyone and their mother knows that catachans and cadians are uglier than a sin, plus they are old plastics, so it's very within the realm of possibility that a new regiment takes the main mantle. Hopefully krieg or armageddon.

Honestly everyone in my store are guessing guard are going to go the militarum tempestus route when 8th rolls around. I could see GW doing it. Or they are going to take the spot light more this is just my theory.

I know this is a eldar picture but do you see any normal guard? Why did they use tempestus when they could of easily did cadians because its fall of cadia.

CplPunishment wrote:Changes I would make:
*Vox casters: re-roll orders within command range plus RECIEVE ORDERS OUTSIDE THIS RANGE (no reroll).

Easier option is just to remove any friggin' requirement to roll for Orders.

*Bring back medusa colossus and griffon

Buy a FW book. They're still in there.

*Sentries doctrine for veterans confers stealth, scout, infiltrate, and defensive grenades for 15-20pts

Why does "Sentries" turn Veterans into Scouts?

*power swords 5pts, other power weapons 10 and powerfists 15. That's all they're worth in the hands of a guardsman

Power weapons, period, as 5 points. Powerfists 10 points.

*edit special weapon squads so that models with a demo charge don't lose their lasgun. While we're at it, allow them to take shotguns or pistol&ccw instead of lasguns.

So basically just make a 6 man Veteran Squad...?

*go back to an armory system for giving characters wargear. *Bring back options like the stormbolter.

There is an armory system for giving characters wargear.

It's on page 89 of Codex: Astra Militarum.

*Give priests back the eviscerator for 15 points plus other options they once had.

If they release a new kit with an Eviscerator, you'll get it back.

Otherwise, no dice.

*allow any squad that can take a heavy weapons team (except heavy weapon squads) to give one guardsman a heavy flamer or heavy stubber.

Heavy Flamers are special weapons, not heavy.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Heavy Stubbers, whenever we get an actual book update.

*Make Storm Troopers Ld8 again. Give them access to melta bombs again. Give each one a pistol, hotshot lasgun and ccw standard. Give them infiltrate, scout and deep strike.

Mmm...no.

Scions have LD8 thanks to their Tempestors and Tempestor Primes. Additionally, what is with this obsession with giving shooty armies CC options?

*give rough riders doctrinal options such as: Grenadiers:4+ save; demolitions: one demo charge and everybody has melta bombs

Delete Rough Riders. Add something better.

*Leman Russ regains Lumbering Behemoth rule

Which will do literally nothing until they change vehicle rules.

*multimelta on sentinels for 10pts. Give them back the chainsaw upgrade!

Again with the obsession for CC...

*give vanquisher a dual fire option like 3rd ed for more points of course.

Doesn't fix the Vanquisher.

Needs higher ROF.

*make Harker worth 55pts or reduce his cost
*return Marbo but at a higher cost
*reduce Colonel Straken's price tag

Or branch them off into their own Codex.

*give us back the last chancers?

Why? Seriously, what's the point?

*buff ratlings or make them cheaper

Or remove them as an individual unit and make them part of the Platoon structure.

*reduce price of ogryns

I don't think these requests are unreasonable. What do y'all think?

I think most of them are just silly. There's a ton of ways to make Guard viable by just bandaiding things, but putting it bluntly?

CplPunishment wrote:@Kanluwen. Practically EVERY Codex GW has ever printed has had rules for units and/or wargear upgrades that they never made sculpts for or were out of production. This Planet is a very big and diverse place--much like the Imperial guard--and yes there *are* lots of people who still use sub-optimal out of production units because they like a challenge or think it's cool. I like a challenge, and I think they look cool in my Drookian Fen Guard army (I greenstuffed kilts on them and did some head swaps). Are you really telling me that you care so little about the hard work that others put into their armies that you would push for the unnecessary removal of a unit that many people still use?

I care so little about the hard work that others put into their armies when that hard work does nothing but hobble my army, yes.

You like snipers on guardsmen? I do too. I have eight in my Catachan army. In order to put as many in my Drookian Fen Guard army, I would need to sculpt 5-10 more kilts--something I don't have time for. Halflings fit nicely with the Celtic aesthetic of my army and have tended to be the best/most cost-effective snipers in the IG. Yes, I understand that might have changed recently, but rules are fluid in this game and ratlings could get buffed.

Not to a point of ever being useful. And the design team considers Ratlings to be the "Sniper Teams" of the Astra Militarum book.

So until they're dead and buried as a separate unit, I won't get something that doesn't suck. Read the Detachment 99 list and its treatment of Elysian Sniper Teams sometime. You'll thank me for campaigning for Ratlings to get ditched.

I see nothing unreasonable with my position and I fail to see how it affects you or anyone else negatively.

And that's the problem. You're so concerned with "I want to play with all of my models" or "If they remove X as a unit, I won't be able to play them!"(which is nonsense, you still would be able to use Ratlings as the "new" Sniper Teams without people getting on your case) that you're failing to see the forest for the trees.

Guard suck. They SUCK right now.

And you know why? Because GW has been too busy walking on eggshells to keep the old grognards complacent that they haven't done a single damn thing to make the Guard able to compete in the current environment.

I've been involved in this exact same discussion time and time and time again. And it always comes down to a bunch of people who feel that they should be catered to and every single one of their models should remain viable, but by the way our army sucks so how about making my models that are a big part of the reason why our army sucks viable...

You want Rough Riders viable? Cool. I want them dumped and replaced with a non-combat unit. The Guard don't need some CC beast charge unit or other such nonsense. They need utility units.

Future War Cultist wrote:The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Yes, a blast weapon is a death star killer...when most death stars have Invisibility on them meaning they cannot be hit by a Deathstrike.

You want to give Guard a way to deal with Invis Deathstars? The answer isn't to make Deathstrikes a D weapon.

It's to make it so that Guard artillery and blast weapons can target a position on the board rather than requiring targeting an enemy unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shinros wrote:


Honestly everyone in my store are guessing guard are going to go the militarum tempestus route when 8th rolls around. I could see GW doing it. Or they are going to take the spot light more this is just my theory.

I know this is a eldar picture but do you see any normal guard? Why did they use tempestus when they could of easily did cadians because its fall of cadia.

Spoiler:

They used Militarum Tempestus because Inquisitor Greyfax had a bodyguard of Kappic Eagles with her.
She escaped from Cadia, with her bodyguard.

The Cadians who got evacuated from the surface of Cadia also were part of the fleet element that actually got out of the Cadian system.
Abaddon's fleet went after Cawl's ship hard.

That's how Cawl, his Skitarii/Mechanicus, Celestine, Greyfax, and the Black Templars ended up on the planet where they linked up with Yvraine and her forces.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Agreed and then some!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Far as the imperial guard goes i think you guys are safe enough. I've heard in the latest book for all eldar that

Spoiler:

Commoragh was annihilated by daemons

so yeah i have more room to complain than you guys. It honestly sounds like they're about to either combine all eldar factions or just straight up get rid of dark eldar. Keep in mind imperial guard are safe because they're fairly popular, there's always guard or PDF somewhere and they're pretty major as far as faction go (sisters, tau and dark eldar don't have that luxury but sadly tau being OP gives them stupid popularity that is undeserved outside of that such as in lore or aesthetics). Dark eldar possibly being squatted or 40k being AoS end times destroyed will probably declare the end of my GW gaming and hobbying experience as i've been screwed every which way by GW by now. They can turn 40k and Fantasy into counting your teeth and your toes but i'll just sigh heavily and watch from outside of a new tabletop hobby if they decide to do so.

My heart bleeds. No, really it does.

We are talking here about the horrific malignant that has been done to the Guard in terms of power level, playbility and viability, not boohooing about some mary sue race losing its bastion. I am sorry if I sound harsh, but quite frankly elday are just being handed buffs like no tomorrow. You have never had it hard and probably never will do - mores the pity.

Was talking Dark Eldar dude which may get squatted and don't have those buffs. Guard are much safer. I used to play them in 5th where they were the most OP faction around. Dark eldar before their 5th ed book had a ugly as sin model line. I finally got into them in 7th edition when riptide and stormsurge were commonplace. They excel at facing dark eldar.

Anyway this is about guard and i think you guys are safe. You still get good looking models and you can still have wall emplacements and other stuff to help you. Guard seems better off.

--------

@Lord Kragan: You didn't go through End Times in fantasy. I was screwed there and a lot of what is going on in 40k end times mirrors Fantasy's end times. That scares the living crap out of me. I spent over a thousand dollars in fantasy and my army faction in fantasy STILL hasn't been updated (with a good new codex and models) with the exception of End Times few models. They very much may make all eldar into one batch (something i don't want but wouldn't be shocked) or they could squat them. However i'm worried 40k will get AoS-ified and that's not something i spent thousands of dollars to have happen to me.

The guard which this is about have it semi-bad. Perhaps they'll wear a different color scheme or maybe we'll get a new main guard regiment. However guard will always be there in some form. They are the backbone of the imperium. As long as the imperium exists so will they. Dark eldar aren't so lucky.

I apologize for going off topic but even being a previous guard player i'm not as afraid for them as dark eldar (though i admit being the punching bag of 40k as guard in the fluff is annoying).

No, I just shelled a hundred bucks in orcs (lucky me I had begun with black orcs, I just loved their mean look) and followed ET from beginning to end. You're right, you're special.

But I digress, the thing is that has no bearing in the current discussion which is what will happen to the astra militarum. Where we both agree, and thus is a moot point.

*buff ratlings or make them cheaper

Or remove them as an individual unit and make them part of the Platoon structure.

Actually if you add them to the Platoon Structure you could add some of their lore benefits, Ratlings are very well liked for their cooking (yeah yeah hobbit stuff) but they could provide a LD buff while they are inside a Platoon

Though I wonder why people are thinking Guard are getting outright squatted or have NEVER been strong.. Did people just forget the Leafblower Guard from 5+? They just got screwed in their next few codex's.

Lord Kragan wrote:
No, I just shelled a hundred bucks in orcs (lucky me I had begun with black orcs, I just loved their mean look) and followed ET from beginning to end. You're right, you're special.

But I digress, the thing is that has no bearing in the current discussion which is what will happen to the astra militarum. Where we both agree, and thus is a moot point.

I'm not saying i'm special. Bretonnia, beastmen, etc. had it far worse.

I agree though it's about imperial guard and they have gotten fairly screwed. If 40k end times mirrors fantasy all bad guy factions will do some damage except dark eldar and maybe orks or nids (due to time constraints or something stupid). Nids and orks might get a combined book where the hordes screw over the galaxy. Who knows. Greenies got screwed in Fantasy but undead got a lot so maybe necrons. Guess we'll see.

For what it's worth i do feel a bit bad for guard as it's what i played and you guys are the punching bags of 40k in the lore. However my current army issues just hit me harder right now.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The Deathstrike should become a Destroyer Weapon. Make it a Death Star killer. It's not ideal but in the current rules it's what we need. And if there's any weapon that should be a Destroyer it's that.

Indeed. Honestly it feels like the only reason it's not a D-weapon is that at the time it was made they were restricted to apocalypse, whereas nowadays they're in the normal game.

It should be d with a +2 to the table for the innermost part of the blast.

@ Kanluwen

A Deathstrike missile should be a Destroyer weapon anyway.

@ Melissia

Yeah, it was released too early.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kanluwen

A Deathstrike missile should be a Destroyer weapon anyway.

Stormsurges have a weapon literally called a Destroyer Missile that is not Strength D without expending a Markerlight token.
In any regards, tell me again how Strength D Apocalyptic Blasts defeat Invisible death stars?

I get that you might think it needs to be Strength D, but I'd much rather see a downshift from Strength D outside of melee weapons or requirements that have to be met.

The Stormsurge and its Markerlight requirement, for example, or the sliding range scale.

@ Melissia
Yeah, it was released too early.

Nah. It's simply a case of them not thinking that a D Apocalyptic Blast was appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

*buff ratlings or make them cheaper

Or remove them as an individual unit and make them part of the Platoon structure.

Actually if you add them to the Platoon Structure you could add some of their lore benefits, Ratlings are very well liked for their cooking (yeah yeah hobbit stuff) but they could provide a LD buff while they are inside a Platoon

Though I wonder why people are thinking Guard are getting outright squatted or have NEVER been strong.. Did people just forget the Leafblower Guard from 5+? They just got screwed in their next few codex's.

To be fair, Leafblower Guard wasn't really a Guard list for all intents and purposes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Stormsurges have a weapon literally called a Destroyer Missile that is not Strength D without expending a Markerlight token.
In any regards, tell me again how Strength D Apocalyptic Blasts defeat Invisible death stars?

Yeah, we all know how messed up Invisibility is. Still doesn't justify not giving Destroyer to the Deathstrike.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nah. It's simply a case of them not thinking that a D Apocalyptic Blast was appropriate.

What's Robin Cruddace like in person?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Though I wonder why people are thinking Guard are getting outright squatted or have NEVER been strong.. Did people just forget the Leafblower Guard from 5+? They just got screwed in their next few codex's.

Well, yes, Leafblower was strong. Provided you where playing at 2K+. And allowing allies. And had not come prepared.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


I apologize for going off topic but even being a previous guard player i'm not as afraid for them as dark eldar (though i admit being the punching bag of 40k as guard in the fluff is annoying).

Oh gak, I feel like a bit of a dick now - I saw eldar and thought Eldar, not Dark Eldar.
You guys have had it rough.

As to the Deathstrike, it really need to be D+2.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Stormsurges have a weapon literally called a Destroyer Missile that is not Strength D without expending a Markerlight token.
In any regards, tell me again how Strength D Apocalyptic Blasts defeat Invisible death stars?

Yeah, we all know how messed up Invisibility is. Still doesn't justify not giving Destroyer to the Deathstrike.

It does when you're trying to lower the number of Destroyer weapons, period.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nah. It's simply a case of them not thinking that a D Apocalyptic Blast was appropriate.

What's Robin Cruddace like in person?

Look back at how many items around that point in time had Strength D as ranged. It wasn't much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


Yeah, we all know how messed up Invisibility is. Still doesn't justify not giving Destroyer to the Deathstrike.

It does when you're trying to lower the number of Destroyer weapons, period.

This, as well as the fact that the standard Plasma Warhead on a Deathstrike isn't actually strong enough to justify being a D Weapon.

The game neèds far more d weapons not less.

Make it so d blasts ignore invis. Because nukes.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


Yeah, we all know how messed up Invisibility is. Still doesn't justify not giving Destroyer to the Deathstrike.

It does when you're trying to lower the number of Destroyer weapons, period.

This, as well as the fact that the standard Plasma Warhead on a Deathstrike isn't actually strong enough to justify being a D Weapon.

Um, no. If you want to go by fluff perspective? Then absolutely yes, it should be D based on the warhead.
But I don't want a proliferation of D weapons. I want a reduction in them.

I want to see alternate solutions to just slapping Strength D on crap. An example is a rule like this for the Deathstrike:

Mass Destruction: The devastation caused by the impact of a Deathstrike Missile is not solely counted in the number of lives snuffed out. It's also the amount of material and territory rendered nigh useless by the destructive force of the blast.

Any cover or fortifications which were beneath the blast template permanently reduce the cover saves granted to models by half. Use the markers included with your Deathstrike Launcher kit to keep track of this.

It would require adding a new sprue to the Deathstrike/Manticore box, something that is just a bunch of craters with bits of missile sticking out of it or something of that nature.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Though I wonder why people are thinking Guard are getting outright squatted or have NEVER been strong.. Did people just forget the Leafblower Guard from 5+? They just got screwed in their next few codex's.

Well, yes, Leafblower was strong. Provided you where playing at 2K+. And allowing allies. And had not come prepared.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


I apologize for going off topic but even being a previous guard player i'm not as afraid for them as dark eldar (though i admit being the punching bag of 40k as guard in the fluff is annoying).

Oh gak, I feel like a bit of a dick now - I saw eldar and thought Eldar, not Dark Eldar.
You guys have had it rough.

It's fine and to be fair i chose to be in the position to play dark eldar. I had admired them when i came in but wanted to wait for a re-vamp which came at 5th. I then went to Fantasy with skaven and didn't get to do dark eldar yet. When Fantasy died i went to dark eldar. I suppose i could've gone for mechanicus or stormtroopers or something but i've had to deal with dark eldar at least over a year. I didn't want to choose an army that was OP but i didn't want one that sucked either. Stormtroopers though cool don't have a large enough model line for me to want them.

Honestly i haven't fought eldar yet but guard and tau are hard fights for us. I can even somewhat do well vs necron decurion in kill points matches (not win but get really, really close). Tau however i only play when i'll get no other game. Nothing is as crushing as facing tau (with formations of 2 stormsurge, a riptide, stealth suits and 2 ghostkeel with shadowsun) with non-covens dark eldar esp. when you don't get to go first. I don't even think the tau player will put on the baby gloves either and he has been considered by some to cheat.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Um, no. If you want to go by fluff perspective? Then absolutely yes, it should be D based on the warhead.

For a Plasma Warhead? I think S10, AP1, Apoc Template, Ordnance, Ignores Cover is enough for that, although I guess if the explosion was prolonged enough, the payload could melt the area of impact to a congealed pile of slag.

If they allow you to take a Titan Warhead, that would at least have to be a D weapon.

Mass Destruction: The devastation caused by the impact of a Deathstrike Missile is not solely counted in the number of lives snuffed out. It's also the amount of material and territory rendered nigh useless by the destructive force of the blast.

Any cover or fortifications which were beneath the blast template permanently reduce the cover saves granted to models by half. Use the markers included with your Deathstrike Launcher kit to keep track of this.

It would require adding a new sprue to the Deathstrike/Manticore box, something that is just a bunch of craters with bits of missile sticking out of it or something of that nature.

Sounds like an interesting rule for a more powerful warhead (does the Imperium have anything nuclear? if so that'd be perfect), although you would not necessarily have to change the terrain - you could just use some basic markers instead, since you also need to consider making alternate "flattened" terrain pieces for a variety of shapes, such as barricades.

I also want to see a biological warhead option, though I have no ideas myself on how to implement it rules wise.