He's not a Buddhist monk he is part of a ancient Chinese secret organization and learned to fight and use powers from them. Totally different obliviously.
One always needs a good white guy to take the lead and show Asians how it is done. Plus we get to see a Caucasian doing kung fu on TV, and how often does that happen?
Ahtman wrote: He's not a Buddhist monk he is part of a ancient Chinese secret organization and learned to fight and use powers from them. Totally different obliviously.
One always needs a good white guy to take the lead and show Asians how it is done. Plus we get to see a Caucasian doing kung fu on TV, and how often does that happen?
So you'd prefer they change the character to be Asian, thus switching from the White Saviour trope to the All Asians Know Kung Fu one instead? Let's be real here, there was no version of this show Marvel could do that wouldn't be problematic in some way, but they can't just pretend Iron Fist doesn't exist if they're going to do The Defenders and so they might as well continue to stick with the material from the comics. Frankly I doubt the character will be a big deal going forward - once all the Hand stuff is out of the way they'll probably roll Luke Cage & Iron Fist together as Heroes for Hire, which in practice would just be "Luke Cage and some guy who makes cameos and does some fight scenes".
That said, I'm nowhere near as excited for this as I have been for the previous and other upcoming Netflix Marvel shows, but given the quality of the others so far even when dealing with pretty heavy subject matter, I think Iron Fist deserves some benefit of the doubt no?
Damn, Fraz, who peed in your Cheerios? Of all the characters that could be divisive, I wouldn't have thought it would be this one.
First, almost all the older Marvel characters are silly tropes of some sort. How many are excessively rich, smart, good looking, or all three? Most of them. Second, Iron Fist came at a time when Kung Fu movies were all the rage in America. He was white because the Marvel writers and artists were white and they wrote/drew what they knew. Mostly. Power Man, Black Panther, and the Falcon came out of the whole Blaxploitation period so that's why they're the way they are. Finally, most comic book writing in the 60s and 70s wouldn't even reach the level of bad fan fic because most fan fic at least pretends to be literature. The comics didn't even do that much.
Iron Fist has money but unlike Batman isn't a genius nor does he use his money to fund his crime fighting with gadgets, computers, or arsenals. He's just a normal guy... who happens to have a dragon bonded to him.
And he isn't Buddist. The fact that he's beating everyone and everything up should attest to that.
Ahtman wrote: He's not a Buddhist monk he is part of a ancient Chinese secret organization and learned to fight and use powers from them. Totally different obliviously.
One always needs a good white guy to take the lead and show Asians how it is done. Plus we get to see a Caucasian doing kung fu on TV, and how often does that happen?
So you'd prefer they change the character to be Asian, thus switching from the White Saviour trope to the All Asians Know Kung Fu one instead? Let's be real here, there was no version of this show Marvel could do that wouldn't be problematic in some way, but they can't just pretend Iron Fist doesn't exist if they're going to do The Defenders and so they might as well continue to stick with the material from the comics. Frankly I doubt the character will be a big deal going forward - once all the Hand stuff is out of the way they'll probably roll Luke Cage & Iron Fist together as Heroes for Hire, which in practice would just be "Luke Cage and some guy who makes cameos and does some fight scenes".
That said, I'm nowhere near as excited for this as I have been for the previous and other upcoming Netflix Marvel shows, but given the quality of the others so far even when dealing with pretty heavy subject matter, I think Iron Fist deserves some benefit of the doubt no?
I don't disagree with any of that, but it also won't keep me from having fun with it. I'm also willing to bet that show will also make sort of meta-commentary about it as well. It is a bit like The Ancient One in Dr. Strange where no matter what was done there would be complaints.
I thought it was clear I wasn't being that serious, which was my mistake.
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Breotan wrote: And he isn't Buddist. The fact that he's beating everyone and everything up should attest to that.
Well Buddhist doesn't mean pacifist: Shaolin Monks fought, Samurai used Buddhism as well (later but still), and the Empire of Japan used Buddhism to inspire their soldiers during WWII. It is like Patrick Swayze in Road House!
Breotan wrote: Damn, Fraz, who peed in your Cheerios? Of all the characters that could be divisive, I wouldn't have thought it would be this one.
First, almost all the older Marvel characters are silly tropes of some sort. How many are excessively rich, smart, good looking, or all three? Most of them. Second, Iron Fist came at a time when Kung Fu movies were all the rage in America. He was white because the Marvel writers and artists were white and they wrote/drew what they knew. Mostly. Power Man, Black Panther, and the Falcon came out of the whole Blaxploitation period so that's why they're the way they are. Finally, most comic book writing in the 60s and 70s wouldn't even reach the level of bad fan fic because most fan fic at least pretends to be literature. The comics didn't even do that much.
Iron Fist has money but unlike Batman isn't a genius nor does he use his money to fund his crime fighting with gadgets, computers, or arsenals. He's just a normal guy... who happens to have a dragon bonded to him.
And he isn't Buddist. The fact that he's beating everyone and everything up should attest to that.
Yea, for some reason this one just rubs me the wrong way, like an uncool rip on Hong Kong chopsaki classics.
I'm really surprised they didn't at least give him an accent- if you were raised in isolation for ten years, it ought to have altered your speech patterns considerably.
That being said, I am looking forward to some awesome kung fu action. Although I really hope this doesn't end up like season 2 of Daredevil. Superhero vs hordes of thugs with one or two awesome bosses is fun to watch, like season 1. Superhero vs hordes of superninjas that don't breathe and have no heartbeats gets really tiresome.
Frazzled wrote: I have a better idea. Don't waste money on stupid infantile gak like this.
What's "infantile" about it? You don't know anything about it.
Here's an idea Fraz: Watch the show, don't prejudge the show. You don't know anything about Iron Fist, so maybe learn a little about it.
Ahtman wrote: He's not a Buddhist monk he is part of a ancient Chinese secret organization and learned to fight and use powers from them. Totally different obliviously.
He's not that either, but I suspect you already know this.
Ahtman wrote: One always needs a good white guy to take the lead and show Asians how it is done. Plus we get to see a Caucasian doing kung fu on TV, and how often does that happen?
Really? Fething really? You're going to drag this gak out to play?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really? Fething really? You're going to drag this gak out to play?
So you just ignored this post:
I thought it was clear I wasn't being that serious, which was my mistake.
so you could yell "Really? fething really?"?
I guess maybe it is cathartic for you, but it does seem to show a lack of judgement in what you are reading and posting. It also isn't my fault Bruce Lee developed the tv show Kung Fu but was to Asian to play a Chinese man. Getting worked up over that is to late as well.
Not sure they could do a Heros for Hire with their show. The Netflix version of Cage that we've seen doesn't seem the type to demand payment for him to help you. We've actually seen him try to turn down freely offered money.
Frazzled wrote: I have a better idea. Don't waste money on stupid infantile gak like this.
What's "infantile" about it? You don't know anything about it.
Here's an idea Fraz: Watch the show, don't prejudge the show. You don't know anything about Iron Fist, so maybe learn a little about it.
Why? I have a finite amount of time left. If I am going to watch a chopsocky movie I'll watch a real chopsocky movie not a bad imitation chopsocky Batman.
Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage have all been worth my time. I expect this to continue.
I also like Rosario Dawson. I mean.... in the show..... ahhh.... as a linking device for the various heroes to eventually get them together as the defenders (or whatever they are called).
Easy E wrote: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage have all been worth my time. I expect this to continue.
I also like Rosario Dawson. I mean.... in the show..... ahhh.... as a linking device for the various heroes to eventually get them together as the defenders (or whatever they are called).
My sole concern is how they might tie up the three tones we've seen so far. Jessica Jones was much more muted and plot driven than Daredevil's 'action then plot', Luke Cage (for me!) somewhere between the two.
I've every confidence they can pull it off, because it's all been sterling work so far.
And I would love to see Wilson Fisk appear as a villain for the Avengers to deal with. This is the best version of him I've ever seen on screen.
Breotan wrote: Damn, Fraz, who peed in your Cheerios? Of all the characters that could be divisive, I wouldn't have thought it would be this one.
Spoiler:
First, almost all the older Marvel characters are silly tropes of some sort. How many are excessively rich, smart, good looking, or all three? Most of them. Second, Iron Fist came at a time when Kung Fu movies were all the rage in America. He was white because the Marvel writers and artists were white and they wrote/drew what they knew. Mostly. Power Man, Black Panther, and the Falcon came out of the whole Blaxploitation period so that's why they're the way they are. Finally, most comic book writing in the 60s and 70s wouldn't even reach the level of bad fan fic because most fan fic at least pretends to be literature. The comics didn't even do that much.
Iron Fist has money but unlike Batman isn't a genius nor does he use his money to fund his crime fighting with gadgets, computers, or arsenals. He's just a normal guy... who happens to have a dragon bonded to him.
And he isn't Buddist. The fact that he's beating everyone and everything up should attest to that.
Yea, for some reason this one just rubs me the wrong way, like an uncool rip on Hong Kong chopsaki classics.
What if it was Shang Chi master of Kung fu (the old ones were beautifully drawn by an Italian artisst
I know he is not wearing his yellow green outfit, i am interested but it makes me think of arrow too much
Finished Jones and Cage this week. Honestly DD season 2 was the best by far. I think that dd just has the best supporting cast. Though Dawson helped quite a bit in Cage. This looks close to dd so I think it'll be fun. Even with the tropes
If it sucks it sucks - it's still a day I'm not in the office and I get to stuff meself with pizza and cake and Diet Coke and tabs and beer!
I've only skimmed over the reviews (no spoilers kthx) but they seem to suggest Miscasting overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If it sucks it sucks - it's still a day I'm not in the office and I get to stuff meself with pizza and cake and Diet Coke and tabs and beer!
I've only skimmed over the reviews (no spoilers kthx) but they seem to suggest Miscasting overall.
I've thought many of the actors in the Netflix series were miscast. They gave solid performances and in a couple of cases were amazing. I didn't see anything in the trailers for Iron Fist that seemed to break that pattern. I'll give it at least a few episodes before I hop on any bandwagons.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If it sucks it sucks - it's still a day I'm not in the office and I get to stuff meself with pizza and cake and Diet Coke and tabs and beer!
Hope you're drinking that for the taste.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I've only skimmed over the reviews (no spoilers kthx) but they seem to suggest Miscasting overall.
I'd ignore most of the 'miscasting' criticisms, as most of them are followed with the "He should'a been Asian!!!" nonsense. If Finn Jones himself turns out to be illsuited to the role of Danny, then fine, that's fair but we have to see the show to know that.
My hope is that it's like the other Marvel Netflix serieses, just in reverse: Weak beginning and a strong ending.
Breotan wrote: I've thought many of the actors in the Netflix series were miscast. They gave solid performances and in a couple of cases were amazing. I didn't see anything in the trailers for Iron Fist that seemed to break that pattern. I'll give it at least a few episodes before I hop on any bandwagons.
Give it at least 7. All the reviewers have seen the first 6, and many of them comment how things are starting to look like they might change by the 6th. By the 7th and 8th we'll know if this show is worth a damn.
This has to be the worst thing I've ever read on this site and I spend time on the OT board. Now I have to go lie down somewhere and think about my life decisions.
Spoiler:
I kid of course, I just don't like the taste of Diet Coke.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Diet Coke - for the taste and to help prevent my teef rotting in my skull (I'm under no illusion my lifestyle is unhealthy!).
As for casting - I do find many castings objectionable, but so far as I'm aware, Danny Rand has never been of Asian extraction?
Perhaps it's the same reviewers who found the superlative Dredd 'overly violent' and criticised it's 'fascistic overtones'...
Dredd doesn't have 'fascistic overtones'. it's Fascistic through and through.
It's also a very good satire! Of course, the reviewers of Dredd couldn't, more likely wouldn't, see the stark difference between the actions of the Perps, and Dredd. Perps? Indiscriminate firepower applied wherevs. Dredd? It's not even short controlled bursts. Just a simple double tap for him and Anderson both. The restraint and training evident there was completely missed.
So, Ironfist tomorrow. Woo! Excited flailing! Yay!
Yes, even if it's ultimately a bit bobbins....because it inches us closer to Defenders, which I am very interested in.
So far, DD, JJ and Luke Cage have all had quite different feels to their shows, and one assumes that'll be followed through into Defenders. How they tie all that together for an 8 episode TV show, I can't wait to find out!
Okay, I can see why "critics" didn't like it. It's starting out in a slow burn and certainly wouldn't have survived on network television. It's also a very "real" show instead of a "comic book" show.
One of the things I liked about Daredevil is that it took time to develop all the characters, including the supporting cast and the series' villian. Iron Fist is doing the same but I can't help but feel we could have been pushed into the supernatural elements a bit sooner.
Either way, it looks like this is a deeply interesting story and I'll be following it through to the end.
One episode in, but already completely hooked. This show seems to have everything that makes Daredevil excellent; a charismatic lead, a tight cast, a fantastic script and compelling pace, with some great fight choreography thrown in as well. There's two types of slow burn in these Marvel Netflix shows, the JJ-style 'nothing has happened in the last 4 episodes so why am I still watching', and the DD-style 'This is clearly going somewhere and I'm intent to follow it'. IF, from the first episode, is definitely in the latter camp.
Definitely. It's still got some dark stuff going on the background, but it's nowhere near as relentlessly bleak, and there's some well-place humour (even if it's pretty minimalist, it is there).
Second episode even better than the first. I don't even see where the complaints in the reviews about pacing are coming from, towards the end of the episode things really started to pick up.
I think they got used to the go nowhere feels of JJ and LC. Both of those were horribly slow to start. But at least LC had some humor that kept me in. JJ I actually didn't originally finished and only went back for the last few episodes when I started LC. Iron Fist so far is solid, not season 2 daredevil but what is with the punisher
II am seeing the reason for some of the complaining about the fights. The ninja girls fight scenes are pretty meh for the most part.
One episode in and I am hoping the second picks up a little bit. The first episode definitely failed to suck me in. The fight scenes are a little meh, definitely not as crisp or as well shot as DD or JJ.
The fight scenes aren't as brutal as Daredevil's, but I kind of like that - it sets a difference in approach between two characters that are both essentially Ninjas. Daredevil is more of a street fighter, using his environment, Ironhand instead relies solely on his skill and body.
The corporate intrigue angle is....curious. As with many such plots I suspect it won't feel right until the arc is complete and we know what's what and that.
I've only watched the first few episodes, and it does seem the major issue with it is a slow burn set up and a near total lack of charisma from iron fist himself
either one would be ok if a bit annoying, but both together i'm not sure I can take
It is definitely slow but then I sat through JJ so I suppose can deal with that but the main gripe at this point (besides the hair obliviously) is that they guy playing IF seems to be someone acting like someone else whereas DD, JJ, and LC inhabited those roles. As stretched out* as JJ was Krysten Ritter was excellent as JJ.
*Felt like it should have been an eight episode series and not thirteen.
Jessica Jones as a masterwork drama, as it dealt with the sensitive subject of abusive relationships quite beautifully. It didn't sensationalise, it didn't understate. Yes it put a fantastical bent on it, but it never lost its message.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Jessica Jones as a masterwork drama, as it dealt with the sensitive subject of abusive relationships quite beautifully. It didn't sensationalise, it didn't understate. Yes it put a fantastical bent on it, but it never lost its message.
I don't disagree, but that doesn't mean that that the show wasn't dragged out over to many episodes. One can recognize a good story idea and bad story editing. The series would have benefited from bit more succinct, is all.
Jessica Jones' biggest failing was that it was slow, but if that's its only failing then it did pretty well. Certainly better than Luke Cage (relentlessly boring, and a hero that stays reluctant throughout the entire series, even during the final damned fight in the last episode), and certainly better than Iron Fist.
At the end of Iron Fist's 13th hour I was left thinking: And the point of that was...?
It reminded me of a show where the creates had a great backstory, a great mythology, and wonderful characters, yet were so wrapped up in keeping things mysterious that they never bothered to tell us anything by the time we zoom into the glowy fist and smash-cut to credits. It was more interesting than Luke Cage ever was, sure, but that doesn't make it good.
And we don't even get an ending. The show doesn't end. It just stops, mid-scene, with no sense of satisfaction and only Ward getting a sense of resolution.
I've complained that Daredevil Season 2 started strong, like a thick piece of rope that held multiple threads together, but then by the end of the season that rope is frayed and has begun to fall apart completely. Iron Fist is the same, except it never began as a tightly wound rope. Rather it is a loose collection of tangled strings that never come together to form anything solid.
Now we have to hope that The Defenders rights the ship.
Just finished. I'm disappointed that so much effort went into world building but otherwise Danny didn't really do much. It looks like this is the weakest of the four shows so far. Danny was too fething emo for Marvel. His character could have been put into a DC show on the CW and nobody would have noticed the difference.
At least the infiltration and build up of the Hand in NYC was handled intelligently.
Luke Cage remains the only one I couldn't finish. Finished Iron Fist in a little over 24 hrs. I liked it well enough. Felt like I was watching a more adult Arrow with ties everywhere into the marvel tv universe.
I do like how the general theme has been the villains not being at all super powered - just socially powerful.
They're all wealthy, all have fingers in pies. They're all toxic to the wider community,
Of course, Ironfist's villains were really quite lacking. Wilson Fisk and Purpleman were both brilliantly realised. Luke Cage's foe was something out of Blaxploitation cinema well updated and realised without a racist tone. Ironfist? Damp squibs, damp squibs for everyone!!!!
I do wonder how I'd regard Daredevil is it wasn't for Fisk...
Daredevil without Fisk was season 2, wasn't it? And that basically semmed to resort to throwing in unfeasible numbers of ninjas! whenever things got too slow.
Ahtman wrote: The scenes with Fisk and Frank Castle together were a lot of fun.
As were the scenes with Fisk and Murdock. Basically any scene with Fisk was great. D'onofrio kills it every scene.
I've only watched the first 3 episodes of Iron Fist but I'm enjoying it. I enjoyed Luke Cage as well until they swapped bad guys. Cottonmouth was great.
I loved how gloriously understated Kingpin is throughout.
Very quiet man, and you get the impression that he's far from indiscriminate in his dealings. If you're not involved, your safe. If you're involved and don't even attempt to cross him, you're safe.
A very powerful man, but so far removed from being a bully it's chilling. His relationship with Vanessa is equal parts a beautiful romance, and MacBeth waiting to happen.
I just want The Defenders to be good. Thankfully it's 8 episodes, and hopefully by then Danny will have grown up and will stop having tantrums whenever he thinks flying planes or being angry or being contradicted or literally anything.
I also hope Luke wants to be a hero by the time the Defenders comes around.
Ahtman wrote: The scenes with Fisk and Frank Castle together were a lot of fun.
. I enjoyed Luke Cage as well until they swapped bad guys. Cottonmouth was great.
*******Potential Spoilers for Luke Cage Ahead************
I have to admit. I have no idea why they decided to do the villain swap. It actually reduced my interest in the show as it would have been more fun to see how a "regular-street level" villain would try to deal with a super-powered foe. Heck, he could have done the exact same stuff as D-back did.
Defenders is first, middle of this year. Punisher will be the end of the year (November I'd say, like JJ and LC).
Next after that is JJ Season 2 (likely), followed by another DD, then either LC or IF, if they get 2nd Seasons (which they hopefully won't, because they'll do Heroes for Hire instead).
I can't see them doing Heroes for Hire, it just doesn't feel in character for these tv versions of them. We've already seen Cage turn down money for helping out, and Danny was quite willing to make less money in the name of helping others. Seeing them demand payment for assistance will be an odd jump to get there.
I'm wondering if they're not planning to do something with the 'other' Heroes for Hire team at some point, as that's headed up by Misty Knight and Colleen Wing who are now both in this setting. Not sure all the characters would necessarily translate that well (they have a guy whose power is talking to bugs...) but they might be angling towards that as the second 'Defenders' type teamup series.
AduroT wrote: I can't see them doing Heroes for Hire, it just doesn't feel in character for these tv versions of them. We've already seen Cage turn down money for helping out, and Danny was quite willing to make less money in the name of helping others. Seeing them demand payment for assistance will be an odd jump to get there.
Cage would have given up breathing if he thought it would let him avoid being a hero for even a microsecond more. That guy took 'reluctant hero' to a whole new infuriatingly boring level.
I'm hoping that the Defenders beats that trait out of him.
I'm really not sure about Iron Fist. A man who is a living weapon really needs to get into more fights. I mean, I'm up to Episode 8, and there's been about 4 good fights, which is nothing compared to Daredevil.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm really not sure about Iron Fist. A man who is a living weapon really needs to get into more fights. I mean, I'm up to Episode 8, and there's been about 4 good fights, which is nothing compared to Daredevil.
I know what you mean! I get more excited when Colleen Wing starts fighting.
Spoiler:
She really sells that slightly more than necessary force thing well. When she takes out the dude in the hospital and twists his wrist back the other way, not because she needs to to win, but because she enjoys hurting him and smiles... that's a really interesting shade to her character.
That being said, I do like the subtle theme of Iron Fist sucking when he's surprised (though I do wish that happened less often) but once he squares up with someone he takes them apart. It feels right for somebody who's all training, no experience. I really find his temper the most off putting part of the series so far. It seems out of place in someone who spent the last 15 years in a monastery.
Finished up the series last night, absolutely brilliant stuff. I'll concede that the first half of the series was stronger than the last, and arguably the ending was left too open, but other than that, I can't complain about anything else. Danny was a likeable lead throughout, the supporting cast was great (especially Ward and Harold), the action scenes were really well done and the pacing was just right.
I'd probably put is slightly above DD1 just because it got going a bit quicker, not quite as good as DD2.
I can't help thinking that the Hand's goons were a bit crap if even whatshername the nurse could beat them up, but I quite enjoyed that. It would have been nice to find out what the Hand were up to, other than just being heroin dealers.
Spoiler:
An interesting reversal of Ward and Joy's characters, and Harold's post-revival psychosis has some important repercussions for Daredevil.
I even managed to get the references to all the other three shows, which I usually miss, so hurrah for me!
-Loki- wrote: At the moment the best thing about the Defenders is that there's a Punisher series after it.
Yeah, I think I'm giving Iron Fist a pass - there are just too many aggregated reviews showing it to be sub-par - but I am sort of excited about the Punisher series.
Finished it yesterday... the first few episodes were great, after that... not so much. For a master of Kung Fu, he's getting his ass kicked way too much and barely uses his Iron Fist, and when he does, it's for knocking down doors. Okay, he wasn't up against anything super-powered and he would mush a normal human with it, but still... the use in the last episode was kinda redeeming, though.
What was rubbing me the wrong way, that they changed the Iron Fists history to be of the Order of the Crane Mother. Why would they do that? It's such a small thing, but I can see no reason for it. Maybe they wanted to compress the Seven Cities of Heaven into one: K'un Lun?
I thought it was odd that he had trained for fifteen years as a warrior to fight and defend the city but when someone was killed he seemed like it was a total shock. He is a trained soldier surprised by attackers being killed or maimed. It was like in the Harry Potter movies where even after eight years of magic and studying magic the characters acted like they were awestruck by the idea that magic existed. YOU'RE A FREAKIN WIZARD YOU KNOW MAGIC EXISTS.
Admittedly I am only four or so episodes in so maybe it will change but it has been a slog to get through. JJ may have been slowed paced but the characters were well done and the theme was very well executed but this...this ain't that. I expect better from my Marvel Netflix gosh darnit!
I think he trained for fifteen years, but never actually defended Kun Lun for real; it's hidden away like Brigadoon, after all. That was probably the first time he'd seen someone actually killed in a fight.
Is the strangely English monk going to follow in Chiwetel Ejiofor's footsteps and become evil for no obvious reason, do you think? Did he make it back to Kun Lun in time to get killed, was he just too late and is now stranded in wherever the monastery goes on his own, or is he still in Nepal or Manhattan?
I never said he was experienced in killing people but he did train for over a decade as a soldier so it really shouldn't be a shock. It is the attitude to it that I find problematic. The way he reacted didn't seem right for someone in his position.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think he trained for fifteen years, but never actually defended Kun Lun for real; it's hidden away like Brigadoon, after all. That was probably the first time he'd seen someone actually killed in a fight.
Is the strangely English monk going to follow in Chiwetel Ejiofor's footsteps and become evil for no obvious reason, do you think? Did he make it back to Kun Lun in time to get killed, was he just too late and is now stranded in wherever the monastery goes on his own, or is he still in Nepal or Manhattan?
Danny's friend Davos?
Spoiler:
He was the guy talking to Joy in the end and convincing her to kill Danny with Madame Gao listening in at the table behind them.
Ahtman wrote: I never said he was experienced in killing people but he did train for over a decade as a soldier so it really shouldn't be a shock. It is the attitude to it that I find problematic. The way he reacted didn't seem right for someone in his position.
I don't think any of Danny Rand's reactions made much sense at all - and I'm putting that on the actor. I just don't think he (yet, improvement is always possible) has the chops to portray a lead.
I'm hoping the ensemble nature of Defenders will draw more out of him, and let the character and actor develop.
Also, the odd thing? He wasn't trying to hide his superpower from anyone. In the general Marvel Netflix thing, that's kind of unusual, and it may have contributed to my slight bafflement. (only slight. I don't regret watching it as I do Suicide Squad or Arrow, just a damp squib compared to the rest of it's stable mates). So there was no 'curse you and you're sudden but inevitable betrayal' stuff for him to deal with - no 'everyman' such as Foggy - just yet more not especially convincing Ninjas.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I don't think any of Danny Rand's reactions made much sense at all - and I'm putting that on the actor. I just don't think he (yet, improvement is always possible) has the chops to portray a lead.
I thought there was entirely too much going on in the show for it to have real legs. Is this a story about corporate intrigue and plots to control vast fortunes? Is this a story about battles against an ultimate evil and a star child sent to defeat it? Is this a story about kung fu, and a westener's journey to find his inner self?
It tried to be all these things and more. Spread too thin. It did not leave time for action.
That's very insightful, techsoldaten, and really sums up my main issues with Danny Rand, and the show's characters in general. Coming after Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, where you had characters with excellent developed motivation and reactions to events (with the exception of Diamondback's craziness) this just emphasized plot after plot, to the point that it may actually have worked better if they went full Saturday morning cartoon show and had each episode be a discrete Iron Fist adventure.
The highlights for me were when it went full kung fu.
The problem with Luke Cage is they went too far with it. They went from Reluctant Hero to Reluctant Existence. I was surprised that he just didn't stop breathing to get away from everything. Even with the lack of action in Iron Fist I'm finding it far more entertaining than Luke Cage managed to be at its best.
Not to mention the action in Luke Cage was just as bad. Finn Jones might not be good enough to do the martial arts side of Iron Fist, but the action in Luke Cage just boiled down to 'stand around getting shot, throw stuff/people around'. For someone with super strength and unbreakable skin they chose the absolute most boring way to show that power. The Bring Da Ruckus fight was pretty good, and the rest of the show should have been on that level.
I really hope in The Defenders they explore both characters fighting a lot better.
Ahtman wrote: I never said he was experienced in killing people but he did train for over a decade as a soldier so it really shouldn't be a shock. It is the attitude to it that I find problematic. The way he reacted didn't seem right for someone in his position.
I don't think any of Danny Rand's reactions made much sense at all - and I'm putting that on the actor. I just don't think he (yet, improvement is always possible) has the chops to portray a lead.
I'm hoping the ensemble nature of Defenders will draw more out of him, and let the character and actor develop.
Also, the odd thing? He wasn't trying to hide his superpower from anyone. In the general Marvel Netflix thing, that's kind of unusual, and it may have contributed to my slight bafflement. (only slight. I don't regret watching it as I do Suicide Squad or Arrow, just a damp squib compared to the rest of it's stable mates). So there was no 'curse you and you're sudden but inevitable betrayal' stuff for him to deal with - no 'everyman' such as Foggy - just yet more not especially convincing Ninjas.
Honestly as someone with PTSD a lot of his reactions did make sense to me. Especially the rando rage reactions. Also keep in mind that Danny Rand has not been outside of K'un Lun for 15 years, he is for all intents and purposes a man child. He was also never ever supposed to leave K'un Lun. So he would have no training on how to interact with outside world. The only thing the Iron Fist is supposed to do is stand at the pass and defend it until his time as the Iron Fist is over. That's it, that's his whole life.
On a side note Danny is actually the 66th Iron Fist and the absolute worst as of right now. He abandoned his duty and barely understands how to use the Iron Fist because he did not stick around to complete his training. He's not the white dude who goes and becomes better than all the natives, he is actually the white dude that goes and makes a fool of himself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell he was living in isolation when Avengers would have happened. He's got no idea about the Avengers and or anything else.
-Loki- wrote: Even with the lack of action in Iron Fist I'm finding it far more entertaining than Luke Cage managed to be at its best.
That's exactly my thoughts. I think Iron Fist is a bad show, but it was more fun to watch than the much better Luke Cage.
Cage's "Don't Give a Feth Fu" style of fighting is only interesting for a while until you realise he's not not fighting because he's unbreakable, but he's not fighting because he just doesn't have the motivation to do so.
Shows can be slow, shows can be bad, but a show needs to avoid being boring. JJ was slow, IF was bad. LC was boring.
-Loki- wrote: Even with the lack of action in Iron Fist I'm finding it far more entertaining than Luke Cage managed to be at its best.
That's exactly my thoughts. I think Iron Fist is a bad show, but it was more fun to watch than the much better Luke Cage.
Cage's "Don't Give a Feth Fu" style of fighting is only interesting for a while until you realise he's not not fighting because he's unbreakable, but he's not fighting because he just doesn't have the motivation to do so.
Shows can be slow, shows can be bad, but a show needs to avoid being boring. JJ was slow, IF was bad. LC was boring.
Don't be boring!
I think LC was slow but I didn't find it boring or uninteresting. On the other hand, I thought JJ was both boring and annoying. It's the only Marvel Netflix series that I stopped watching and didn't go back.
I'm only 3 episodes into IF, but it's been entertaining enough. *shrug*
I do think it's ridiculous that Marvel dictates that these shows must have 13 eps, because I don't think there's been a single season of any one of them that couldn't have been much improved with fewer eps and a tighter storyline. By dictating the number, you lose one of the great advantages of the Netflix or premium channel formats.
Finished this last night, I really enjoyed it.. I'm not really a kung fu movie fan or anything, but I thought the fight scenes were good as was the overall story and the cast seemed to work well too. I don't really know anything about the comic, I read Daredevil for a while a long time ago, like in the 80's.. haven't been into comics since so all I have to go on is what's in the movies & shows.
Are there gonna be any other marvelnetflixiverse shows before they do the defenders? I liked all of em so far but I felt Luke Cage was a little slow, and Daredevil season 2 was great but I felt like the Punisher stole the show .. which wasn't a bad thing really.
I finished this series, and I didn't think it was near as bad as the reviews said it was.
That being said, I don't much like the iron fist character.
Mostly because he is, apparently, a blithering idiot.
I mean, take Captain America. He's a wholesome, nice, boy-scouty character, but he's also intelligent and resourceful.
Iron fist is like captain America who is also 5 years old. The entire series consists of him making childlike, stupid decisions that get him and everyone else into trouble. He is also taken advantage of, misled, and lied to by just about everyone in the series, and he NEVER sees any of it coming.
I mean, I get that he's from shangri'la (or whatever it was), but he's still supposedly their ultimate weapon against foreign invaders and a worldwide ninja cabal. You'd think they'd have given him some kind of training or insight into how to deal with people who may not entirely have your best interests in mind.
Anyways. Was not an awful show, but by far my favorite parts were how people kept calling him childish, stupid, and "the worst iron fist ever". Fight scenes were also good.
Would have been much happier with a punisher series, which I can't wait for.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I finished this series, and I didn't think it was near as bad as the reviews said it was.
That being said, I don't much like the iron fist character.
Mostly because he is, apparently, a blithering idiot.
I mean, take Captain America. He's a wholesome, nice, boy-scouty character, but he's also intelligent and resourceful.
Iron fist is like captain America who is also 5 years old. The entire series consists of him making childlike, stupid decisions that get him and everyone else into trouble. He is also taken advantage of, misled, and lied to by just about everyone in the series, and he NEVER sees any of it coming.
I mean, I get that he's from shangri'la (or whatever it was), but he's still supposedly their ultimate weapon against foreign invaders and a worldwide ninja cabal. You'd think they'd have given him some kind of training or insight into how to deal with people who may not entirely have your best interests in mind.
Anyways. Was not an awful show, but by far my favorite parts were how people kept calling him childish, stupid, and "the worst iron fist ever". Fight scenes were also good.
Would have been much happier with a punisher series, which I can't wait for.
Well he is an idiot that is basically a child. In Kung Lau he never actually grew as a person, and only poorly as a weapon. He was surrounded by people that all shared essentially the same beliefs and had been raised to stand at a "Gate" and punch the badguys, not go off and be involved in the World. Also he clings to those people that betray him because they are the last remnants of his childhood, the only time when he really was a person. You can see that with him even listening to Ward and going to him despite how much of a dick he was to him before the death of his parents. He wanted what he used to have and couldn't see (because of the sheltered upbringing) that he was being used.
Also ya know, he couldnt even tell that the school full of people wearing Red and Black, was connected to the Badguys wearing Red and Black, he'd fought earlier. He only had the faintest sense that something was wrong after seeing a Knife.
Finished the series finally and found it disappointing. Of the four I would put it last. For a show about a living weapon the fight scenes were weak sauce, the characterization was botched, and the last few episodes seemed rushed all to hell to get somewhere after dragging their feet for what felt like ages. I'll still watch The Defenders but really waiting for The Punisher at this point.
I watched and it has it's moment but it really drove me crazy how often he gets his butt handed to him. I get the idea that he hasn't killed anyone and that puts him off guard but after 10-15 years of training he should be able to hold his ground in a fight far better than what he does. Everyone's ability to fight seems to be based solely on the demand of the plot which gets little dumb when it's in constant flux. How the heck was Danny the only one to survive the trial to become the fist when he can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag?
He spins between being proclaimed as a great warrior who's earned the fist but that seems to be a might low qualification based on how often everybody kicks his behind. Pretty much every other fighter seems to be a much more skilled and capable fighter. Danny is somehow picked for the fist over Davos, however Davos is clearly more skilled when they face off. Is the qualification for becoming the fist based on being a gullible rich white guy? As that seems to be his only constant.
paulson games wrote: I watched and it has it's moment but it really drove me crazy how often he gets his butt handed to him. I get the idea that he hasn't killed anyone and that puts him off guard but after 10-15 years of training he should be able to hold his ground in a fight far better than what he does. Everyone's ability to fight seems to be based solely on the demand of the plot which gets little dumb when it's in constant flux. How the heck was Danny the only one to survive the trial to become the fist when he can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag?
He spins between being proclaimed as a great warrior who's earned the fist but that seems to be a might low qualification based on how often everybody kicks his behind. Pretty much every other fighter seems to be a much more skilled and capable fighter. Danny is somehow picked for the fist over Davos, however Davos is clearly more skilled when they face off. Is the qualification for becoming the fist based on being a gullible rich white guy? As that seems to be his only constant.
Plus, it probably takes more to be an Iron Fist (i.e a hero) than being able to fight.... or some mumbo-jumbo like that.
I finished it. Overall, I think the series felt...rushed? I didn't hate it like the critics did, but it seemed to lack polish, from the script to the fight sequences.
At a certain point, I had the 'a-ha' moment that Danny is in fact *supposed to be* a really poor Iron Fist. And I like that idea. Where Luke Cage is reluctant and Jessica Jones is troubled, Danny is immature and incomplete. It just needed to be executed a little better -- which is to say both more subtly and less subtly.
I think it might have worked better to have characters openly discuss Danny's shortcomings earlier in the series ("Shouldn't you be better at this?" "I would have thought a super kung fu master would have more control over himself." etc.) and then have the actor give a more restrained performance so that Danny didn't come off as an angry brat *quite* so often. Then you cap that by giving him a clearer, better moment in the finale in which he takes a big step toward becoming a better Iron Fist.
While that last bit may be straight out of Superhero Origin Plots 101, I think it would help establish the character's arc, which was a little meandering as presented.
I didn't mind the corporate stuff. Danny Rand is a person with his feet in two worlds, and I thought that was part of it. I also thought the cast around Finn Jones was solid. David Wenham and Jessica Henwick seemed like standouts. Jones was probably the weak link, but then it's also entirely possible that the script and direction played their parts and let him down.
Overall, I'd like to see a season 2 of this show with a more polished story and script...and some more time and training for the fight sequences. I think the seeds of a really good series are there, if they choose to nourish them.
I believe part of the reason Danny was chosen over the others was due to him seeming to line up with a prophecy about fire and falling from the sky or something like that.
Alpharius wrote: ...wouldn't Daredevil be your friend too though?
Second sEason was pretty meh without the punisher but yeah. He's the best of a meh crop. Plus I liked all of his support g cast. Though I loathed elecktra.
gorgon wrote: Wow. Really gotta disagree about Elektra. I thought she seemed right out of the Miller books.
Agree 100%. Really liked her and immediately thought of her in the Miller DD books. Sexy, dangerous, plus a little bit of the WTF? crazy showing through.
OK, I am about halfway through IF and do see the issues already mentioned, but i am intrigued and entertained, nonetheless. Totally agree that some better scripting on motivation and background would go a LONG way in getting the meandering Danny character explained.
DD - eagerly awwaiting the next season. Great performances and robust fight scenes. When you have to occupy dozens of hours of airtime with plot, sure it can get slow at times, but very happy with the DD series, characters and portrayals.
LC was good because of all that is going on around him. Let's admit, the series was watchable because of the cast supporting him (Two recent Academy Award winners!!!)
JJ - I got through three episodes and stopped. So slow and it never really motivated me to keep going. Should I forge through it? If there are some great episodes with fight scenes, can anyone let me know what they are so I can skip to them??
gorgon wrote: Wow. Really gotta disagree about Elektra. I thought she seemed right out of the Miller books.
Agree 100%. Really liked her and immediately thought of her in the Miller DD books. Sexy, dangerous, plus a little bit of the WTF? crazy showing through.
Yep...crazy/sexy/deadly. I thought she was great. Light years from the Jennifer Garner casting and performance.
Now, Elektra didn't have much agency in the show, being just a pawn used by Stick. So I guess I get that complaint. But I thought the character seemed very much like the Miller Elektra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MDSW wrote: OK, I am about halfway through IF and do see the issues already mentioned, but i am intrigued and entertained, nonetheless. Totally agree that some better scripting on motivation and background would go a LONG way in getting the meandering Danny character explained.
Yeah, I was still entertained by it on a brain candy level. It's not much different in that regard than most Marvel feature films. I think season 2 has the potential to be really good if they can iron some things out.
I'll probably watch Defenders, but IF could have used another season first, since they left him as such a hero-in-progress.
I finally got to watch them all in a few days time....
Iron Fists meandering and psychology makes total sense to me as part of his arc is to go from being basically a man child to an actual adult.
The show seemed to have a lot of themes around Destiny vs. Free-choice. The choice to be Danny represented free-will, while Iron Fist was destiny. The character was then consistently put in situations where he had to chose which he wanted to follow.
Lastly, it seems like each of the "Hands" leaders has a different methodolgy they use to achieve their goals. The Hand itself seems more like a loose affiliation of powerful leaders and their pet causes. That makes them a useful villain as they can do whatever the script needs to challenge the hero
Aye Easy E that was my impression of the show as well. I don't get why it's had so much gak thrown at it compared to the other Netflix shows, it didn't seem to have any more or fewer issues than the other shows and to my eye it was just as watchable and enjoyable.
It seemed more like it was getting criticism for not living up to unrealistic expectations rather than for being objectively worse than the other Marvel Netflix shows.
If I am going to watch a chopsocky movie I'll watch a real chopsocky movie not a bad imitation chopsocky Batman.
