So with the majority of the rules leaked now for the new Aeldari faction including the Reborn Warhost and the unit list available I figured it was time to start discussing builds and tactics to use or combat this new faction type.
As you can see the faction can cherry pick all the best "Aeldari" units at the benefit of no tax and unlike Unbound you get the Strength from Death special rule which is pretty awesome for units like scatbikes which never utilized battle focus anyway.
This new sandbox seems to make things like scat bikes spam and warp spider spam even more potent which is rather troubling for the meta.
Consider a list built from the Pale Courts or even just spamming warp spider aspect shrines now losing battle focus but gaining the ability to move, shoot or assault out of sequence including during an opponents turn. A viable tactic to deal with warp spiders in the past was to not shoot them and assault them avoiding their flicker jump, often you would assault with a sacrificial unit first to absorb over watch, now if they kill said unit they can immediately shoot at full BS again at the main unit you were using. Or in their own turn by positioning a unit between two targets a large unit of spiders can shoot twice so long as they wipe the initial target.
I'd like to discuss other thoughts on this new sandbox element to the eldar and develop a better understanding of what this new faction is capable of in order to prepare those who are unaware of some of the cheesier implications, while eventually I would like to consider the fluffier side of say harlies using raiders in order to make larger units more viable and possibly chain assault targets, I's like to develop strategies (if any exist) to combat the darker implications brought out from this release.
I don't know I think all those complains about OP should be thrown out of the window. New edition is coming and GW anyway got to those something with rules bloat and unbalanced armies.
I like new faction as it makes Harelquins quite good. I know it can be used to spam jetbikes and warpspiders to even better effect. But 40k heavy-competitive scene is so bad anyway that it changes little. I hope GW will adress some of those issues with new editon. Maybe they will just release one big Eldar book to enable those kid of armies.
For know I will play with my Harlequins and have a blast with them with some new options.
Well, the Ulthwe Stike Force alone has taken Scaterbikes to a new level. Sure they cost +3ppm now and in the detachment they do not seem to have ObSec, but you can take 4 units (so only 36pts more than before) and be able to roll for them to Deep Strike on turn 1 with No Scatter. One of the only weaknesses of Scatterbike spam was being Alpha struck. That no longer seems to be an issue. In fact, you can take this detachment alongside a Ynnari "CAD" and null deploy.
I'll have to get the book to really dig into the potential 'Strength from Death' shenanigans, but so far it is looking like Eldar....excuse me, "Aeldari" are getting cranked up to 12 (cuz the 7th ed CWE codex had already cranked them up to 11)
DantePQ wrote: I don't know I think all those complains about OP should be thrown out of the window. New edition is coming and GW anyway got to those something with rules bloat and unbalanced armies.
I like new faction as it makes Harelquins quite good. I know it can be used to spam jetbikes and warpspiders to even better effect. But 40k heavy-competitive scene is so bad anyway that it changes little. I hope GW will adress some of those issues with new editon. Maybe they will just release one big Eldar book to enable those kid of armies.
For know I will play with my Harlequins and have a blast with them with some new options.
O am sure you will but please keep the discussion in the current context. If you have a strategy/list involving a fun way to play harlies please share and discuss but please don't speculate or handwave away current ramifications by saying "8th will fix it" GW has had nearly 8 editions of 40k and has yet to fix some of the most fundamental problems. While I like to consider the glass half full, I also am not going to ignore nearly 30 years of past precedent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Well, the Ulthwe Stike Force alone has taken Scaterbikes to a new level.
Sure they cost +3ppm now and in the detachment they do not seem to have ObSec, but you can take 4 units (so only 36pts more than before) and be able to roll for them to Deep Strike on turn 1 with No Scatter.
One of the only weaknesses of Scatterbike spam was being Alpha struck. That no longer seems to be an issue. In fact, you can take this detachment alongside a Ynnari "CAD" and null deploy.
I'll have to get the book to really dig into the potential 'Strength from Death' shenanigans, but so far it is looking like Eldar....excuse me, "Aeldari" are getting cranked up to 12 (cuz the 7th ed CWE codex had already cranked them up to 11)
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Exactly, obsec is one of the stronger mechanics but it is by no means the only way to win or er skin that cat. After all, several armies did well at the LVO without obsec. Riptide wings, wraith knights of various type and war convocation just to name a few.
The ability to deep strike with no scatter around your opponent and alpha them on turn 1 no less is brutal.
And with the range of the Scatterlaser, it will be quite easy to Deep Strike far away, right next to a LoS blocking piece of terrain, in side/rear armour, plink your shots, the scoot out of LoS.
This will absolutely be standard for Eldar tourney lists
Do we know for sure that you can select any detachment to be ynnari? Because GW has done book specific factions in the past, like Ghazgul supplement. Not seen anything that confirms how that works, without that it is hard for me to assume CAD or pale courts are an option.
What I do know is a couple things.
7" from where the last model was removed is not a lot of wiggle room. Any unit with some foot print will push out the chance of benefiting unless you are right on top of them. Which is not where you want most eldar units, if relying on enemy deaths.
If relying on your own deaths in opponents shooting/psychic phase, that's a nice boost if it happens but it relies on a couple of things happening, like opponent not whittling down surrounding units before finishing off units or leaving units in a place where they can actually shoot (rather than jump shoot jumping or similar) or benefit from a free move or assault.
There's some power there for sure but its fairly situational due to that 7" range and whether that triggers. And relies on your opponent not being saavy which will only take you so far.
The Reborn Warhost detatchment may select 0-1 Formations to be a part of the detatchment. The Formation keeps their benefits but also gains the benefit of the mega-detatchment. The listed formations are basically all the ones from the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequin books - except Haemonculus stuff or Forgeworld stuff (Iyanden stuff is out, too).
rollawaythestone wrote: The Reborn Warhost detatchment may select 0-1 Formations to be a part of the detatchment. The Formation keeps their benefits but also gains the benefit of the mega-detatchment. The listed formations are basically all the ones from the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequin books - except Haemonculus stuff or Forgeworld stuff (Iyanden stuff is out, too).
Right, but people are already planning on taking a CAD or any ole eldar detachment outside of the Reborn Warhost and making it Ynnari, which I don't see confirmed as possible.
There is a specific list of available units and formations that Ynnari can include:
Spoiler:
As you can see, no Forge World ones are listed, nor are any Haemonculi Coven formations
It is also important to note that all units taking in a Ynnari detachment are considered the Ynnari Faction. Meaning you may start Eldar units in Dark Eldar transports again
rollawaythestone wrote: The Reborn Warhost detatchment may select 0-1 Formations to be a part of the detatchment. The Formation keeps their benefits but also gains the benefit of the mega-detatchment. The listed formations are basically all the ones from the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequin books - except Haemonculus stuff or Forgeworld stuff (Iyanden stuff is out, too).
You misread it bro. the 0-1 restriction is on Lords of War. The text (bottom left) states "any number of formations" can be in the Reborn Warhost.
So it means you can use the formations to get around the CAD restrictions. Want more than 3 elite aspect warriors? Aspect host. Want more than one Wraithknight? Wraith host (although it comes witha 670 point tax of other smaller wraith units and a spiritseer)
Galef wrote: There is a specific list of available units and formations that Ynnari can include:
Spoiler:
As you can see, no Forge World ones are listed, nor are any Haemonculi Coven formations
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Right. That list is for the Reborn Warhost though, not a list for ynnari per se. So still does not confirm that you can (or cannot) make an actual CAD (eg with obsec bikes) or other detachment 'ynnari', which folks in this thread (including yourself) have suggested.
It's gonna make it really easy to throw in some eldar allies and the such into my Dark Eldar and Harlequins, plus the lack of an insane Harlie tax is really awesome.
Does anybody know what the black eldar do?
Additionally, The avatar of Ynead seems pretty good, initially I saw that it didn't have any movement options and I frowned but this is probably a lot better.
Is there anything preventing the doubles for perils when it comes to Santic? It seems like a cool option but I am no sure if its actually worth taking... And since the Avatar is a daemon, doesn't that mean it can't take of santic?
I highly doubt you'll be able to take a CAD. From what we have seen so far, the wording seems to indicate that the only way to take the Ynnari Faction is to take the Ynnari Detachment, with the units/formations listed.
gummyofallbears wrote: ... And since the Avatar is a daemon, doesn't that mean it can't take of santic?
Wow. Way to go GW. There's a derp moment if ever there was one.
Does the "one of" language before every unit entry mean anything? I'm worried it's saying you can't take duplicates of any unit in a Warhost (so only 1 Windrider unit, for example).
Also, wait, this is super confusing.
So I can include an Eldar Warhost as part of the Reborn Warhost, O.K. cool, but under the Eldar Warhost I can take Wraith Construct multiple times for multiple Wraithknights or I could take Wraith Construct and Living Legend to have a Wraithknight and an Avatar of Khaine, but the Reborn Warhost says 0-1 for Lords of War, so wouldn't that prevent me from doing that and still having it be Ynnari?
Audustum wrote: Does the "one of" language before every unit entry mean anything? I'm worried it's saying you can't take duplicates of any unit in a Warhost (so only 1 Windrider unit, for example).
Audustum wrote: Does the "one of" language before every unit entry mean anything? I'm worried it's saying you can't take duplicates of any unit in a Warhost (so only 1 Windrider unit, for example).
You misread it bro. the 0-1 restriction is on Lords of War. The text (bottom left) states "any number of formations" can be in the Reborn Warhost.
I don't think I misread it - look at the spoilered image. It says "one of the following" and lists the formations available.
Edit:
Seems we have a discrepancy in the rules between the text and the image.?
Yeah, this is weird... and probably because we don't have access to the whole book, but each one of those listings say one of the following... so you are probably right.
Galef wrote: There is a specific list of available units and formations that Ynnari can include:
Spoiler:
As you can see, no Forge World ones are listed, nor are any Haemonculi Coven formations
It is also important to note that all units taking in a Ynnari detachment are considered the Ynnari Faction. Meaning you may start Eldar units in Dark Eldar transports again
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Well, no GW codex has ever referenced Forgeworld units, so we'll have to wait for Forgeworld to FAQ it..
Gummy made a good point - due to the way shooting casualties are removed (front to back), it's likely that the last dying model in a unit will be out of the 7" range of most shooters unless you start the shooting phase right in their faces, so trying to use soulburst to have a unit shoot twice will not be easy.
Yeah that's a pretty big discrepancy, since the Reborn Warhost detachment clearly allows the same # of slots as a CAD (side bar, this is why I feel the regular CAD will not be available for Ynnari)
It'll be kinda hard to fill the minimum 2 Troops when we can only take "1 of the following". I'm thinking it probably means no spamming. So you can take 1 unit of Windriders and 1 unit of Dire Avengers as your Troops, but you cannot take 2 units or Windriders, for example. So no duplication on ANY unit or Formation.
To me it sounds like its' meant to keep people from taking multiples of the same unit. So no 2 Striking Scorpion squads. But you can have 1 with a squad of Howling Banshees (minimum of 2 squads up to 6)
nintura wrote: To me it sounds like its' meant to keep people from taking multiples of the same unit. So no 2 Striking Scorpion squads. But you can have 1 with a squad of Howling Banshees (minimum of 2 squads up to 6)
Seems pretty much common sense.
I don't think so, Since the Grand Convocation and Castellans of the Imperium use the same wording, I don't think it's limiting one of each unit. Especially since The Grand Convocation allows 2-4 HQs and there only 3 HQs listed, there's no way to get a 4th if you can't duplication non-unique units. Likewise, since the Troops selection is 4+, and there are only 4 troops choices, why say 4+?
No, I think they are right. It means that a single Troop slot may be ONE of the following units. You'll have to take ANOTHER Troops slot to take another unit of the same or different.
In other words, you cannot use 1 Troops slot to get 2 units. Kinda weird wording though.
Galef wrote: No, I think they are right. It means that a single Troop slot may be ONE of the following units. You'll have to take ANOTHER Troops slot to take another unit of the same or different.
In other words, you cannot use 1 Troops slot to get 2 units. Kinda weird wording though.
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Ah, I think I get you. We were on different wavelengths there for a second.
I suspect that future codexes may get rid of the force slots on the datasheets (so a Tac squad may not mention that's it's a Troop choice), and restrict which slots each unit goes into via this kind of chart.
As mentioned, the "one of the following" is in reference that for a single troop slot, you may take one of the following troops: jetbikes, guardians, wyches, warriors, harlequin troupe, etc etc.
In regards to tactics, I'm already drawing up quite a few different lists. I expect to see more double D wraithknights, since soulburst is an amazing rule for them.
Likewise, double farseers, maybe a shadowseer with a D cannon vaul's wrath unit for veil & board presence.
The warlord traits are the standout winner I think. I'll always take a farseer for warlord with the spirit stone of anathlan, if only to attempt to select my powers. Most likely invisibility, word of the phoenix, and then whatever suits my needs for the match or list.
Phoenix is probably the best sleeper power, being able to shunt a wraithknight 24" between movement and a free soulburst that can then shoot and charge? Or give a free soulburst to a unit that needs it? Can't complain about that, especially if you manage to make it WC1 instead of 2.
Lastly, seer councils got slightly better. Giving one of the farseers in the council the Last Shroud might be a good idea to get around losing their IC status. In exchange, you've now got a farseer with eternal warrior, fnp, and iwnd embedded in a large unit for free. Can't complain about that.
Really, Ynnari will revolutionize competitive eldar & harlequins. Dark eldar I might use to remake my old beastpack.
Did we also mention how we are no longer afraid of genestealers? Soulburst helps tremendously in that match up now.
My short term plan is to get a wraightlord, paint it like a mix between harlequin and ynarri, and add it to my Harlequin army.
With two missile launchers (not sure of the exact name, the ones that have 3 firing modes, one being a Str7 Skyfire shot), it should give an actual anti-air option, as well as a pretty durable unit (by Harlequin standard). With the big sword and a cool paintjob, it should fit pretty nicely into my Harlequin force too.
Galef wrote: No, I think they are right. It means that a single Troop slot may be ONE of the following units. You'll have to take ANOTHER Troops slot to take another unit of the same or different.
In other words, you cannot use 1 Troops slot to get 2 units. Kinda weird wording though.
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So basically you have 2 Cards that say TROOP: _________ and on that line you are writing "Guardian Squad", and on the second card's line you are writing "Wyches". Then if you wanted, you could add a third card and write on that line "Guardian Squad".
fresus wrote: My short term plan is to get a wraightlord, paint it like a mix between harlequin and ynarri, and add it to my Harlequin army.
With two missile launchers (not sure of the exact name, the ones that have 3 firing modes, one being a Str7 Skyfire shot), it should give an actual anti-air option, as well as a pretty durable unit (by Harlequin standard). With the big sword and a cool paintjob, it should fit pretty nicely into my Harlequin force too.
Have you thought about findin some of the old metal harlequin jetbike canopies, people make awesome Harlequin wraithlords with them
fresus wrote: My short term plan is to get a wraightlord, paint it like a mix between harlequin and ynarri, and add it to my Harlequin army.
With two missile launchers (not sure of the exact name, the ones that have 3 firing modes, one being a Str7 Skyfire shot), it should give an actual anti-air option, as well as a pretty durable unit (by Harlequin standard). With the big sword and a cool paintjob, it should fit pretty nicely into my Harlequin force too.
As well as cost a freaking fortune (185 points ish) and die to grav like it's nobodies business. Be careful of that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just want to do an Ulthwe Strike Force and add Ynnari to it. Being able to change playstyles up from time to time.
Alessander wrote:Have you thought about findin some of the old metal harlequin jetbike canopies, people make awesome Harlequin wraithlords with them
Spoiler:
I've seen quite a lot of them, and I'm actually not a big fan.
My plan would be to airbrush the mask to put some type of geometrical pattern on it. A great example (on a wraighknight, but a wraithlord isn't much different) can be found here: http://taleofpainters.blogspot.fr/2016/06/showcase-eldar-harlequin-troupe-of.html . I think the two WK mesh very well with the rest of the force, I would like to do something similar with my color scheme.
nintura wrote:
fresus wrote: My short term plan is to get a wraightlord, paint it like a mix between harlequin and ynarri, and add it to my Harlequin army.
With two missile launchers (not sure of the exact name, the ones that have 3 firing modes, one being a Str7 Skyfire shot), it should give an actual anti-air option, as well as a pretty durable unit (by Harlequin standard). With the big sword and a cool paintjob, it should fit pretty nicely into my Harlequin force too.
As well as cost a freaking fortune (185 points ish) and die to grav like it's nobodies business. Be careful of that.
It's certainly not the most competitive option, but I think it would work when playing casually. I see plenty of fluffy lists that have a flyer or two in them, and currently they're a pain to play against with my harlequins. I just want to have something to throw their way, while keeping it a friendly game.
What do people think of the formations, Aeldari Bladehost, Soulbound Vanguard, Whispering Ghost Hall and Ynnead's Net?
I don't want to be negative but they all seem to be "we'd love to buy this models - but, uh, couldn't really come up with any rules as to why you would".
The Bladehost is going to be efficient on the Soulburst but I don't see how that is going to get past Wyches and Storm Guardians not doing any damage. Hatred isn't going to be enough.
The Soulbound Vanguard feels like someone has a vision but I am not sure its going to work in practice. Wyches are still bad although furious charge will help a bit. Dire Avengers and Incubi are mid tier but its hard to see how the investment is worth the perks.
The Ghost Hall is just a collection of stuff. Fear with a -2 is going to be okay against the ever shrinking list of armies that are subject to fear - although getting into assault with slow units seems to get ever more difficult. Although I guess that is where Soulburst helps.
The thing is though if you have an obsession with regular Wraithguard/Blades you are probably just going to take the Wraith Host because you want a Wraith Knight.
Finally there is Ynnead's Net. I can see the potential of units coming from all table edges, grabbing objectives and attacking isolated units. One or two units is likely to be out of position for a turn but the Jetbike allows them to quickly cover ground and you get a choice of which unit to put where. So that might be worth experimenting with.
Yeah, not overly found of any of those formations. And basically for the reasons you stated. They require you to field sub-par units for not overly great bonuses,
The Soulbound Vanguard isn't bad but only seems to shine if you take the overpriced characters. Ynnead's Net is ok if you really have a thing for Jetbikes (and I do). Too bad it didn't include Shining Spears too.
The Ulthwe Strike Force is really the only detachment you'll see a lot. The Reborn Warhost is basically just a CAD that allows you to take units for each codex.
This is taken from the Harlequin thread that I just resurrected and comes from the perspective of someone who wants to primarily run Harlequins.
Personally, the loss of run+charge that you get from a straight masque detatchmeant (the Harlequin CAD type formation) seems too much. You can get that by running a Cegorath's Revenge formation, but then you are paying for a whole bunch of stuff that you might not need or want.
Seemingly, anything you could do before for Halreuqins and an allied CAD you can do now. The only two upshots I see:
1) the pseudo 3rd edition consolidation from combat into combat that Soulburst can provide after destroying an enemy unit.
2) larger troops hitching lifts in Raiders
I don't know if these outweigh the tax of taking a Cegorath's Revenge formation or the loss of taking just 'plain' Harlequins in a Ynari CAD when you can get run+charge from a normal Masque detachment.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
People have pointed this out but I am fairly confident the pseudo-Codex trumps the BRB. I mean its a bit daft for them to explicitly say it gets Santic and then go "aha - we will catch out those who don't know the rules".
I initially thought this would be bad because of the probable perils.
Then again the odds of a terrible result are 1/72. Losing the odd wound isn't as much of a problem when you have a mechanic to get them back. The same potentially applies to Yvraine.
I wonder if there are some hidden gems. Its easy to take things that are good (Scat bikes, Warp Spiders etc) and say if they can shoot twice they will be even better.
Its possible something like say Neuro Disruptors which I think most would say are overcosted (even if they look good on paper) suddenly become really good if you reliably shoot twice every turn. Or fire dragons (which are good anyway). Scourges potentially become more reliable if you can get two rounds of shooting.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
People have pointed this out but I am fairly confident the pseudo-Codex trumps the BRB. I mean its a bit daft for them to explicitly say it gets Santic and then go "aha - we will catch out those who don't know the rules".
I initially thought this would be bad because of the probable perils.
Then again the odds of a terrible result are 1/72. Losing the odd wound isn't as much of a problem when you have a mechanic to get them back. The same potentially applies to Yvraine.
I wonder if there are some hidden gems. Its easy to take things that are good (Scat bikes, Warp Spiders etc) and say if they can shoot twice they will be even better.
Its possible something like say Neuro Disruptors which I think most would say are overcosted (even if they look good on paper) suddenly become really good if you reliably shoot twice every turn. Or fire dragons (which are good anyway). Scourges potentially become more reliable if you can get two rounds of shooting.
Also, Scourge have a 12" move, so if they are equipped with heatlances and get in close, they can get out really really easily, back into cover or out of LOS pretty easily, and they have a small footprint so the 7" range on SB isn't too painful.
Thats a good point about Yrvaine, sanctuary is pretty good, and GoF is always awesome, especially when you combat it with an extra move or the such... Clensing flame is probably worse than Storm Of Whispers but I am not sure.. the S3 really hurts it, but the AP2 is awesome.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Yea I laughed when i read he had sanctic as a dicipline, I forgot as a demon he can't use it but was laughing at the prospect of him casting sanctuary and burning his legs on dangerous terrain such a derp moment for GW on that one.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
People have pointed this out but I am fairly confident the pseudo-Codex trumps the BRB. I mean its a bit daft for them to explicitly say it gets Santic and then go "aha - we will catch out those who don't know the rules".
I initially thought this would be bad because of the probable perils.
Then again the odds of a terrible result are 1/72. Losing the odd wound isn't as much of a problem when you have a mechanic to get them back. The same potentially applies to Yvraine.
I wonder if there are some hidden gems. Its easy to take things that are good (Scat bikes, Warp Spiders etc) and say if they can shoot twice they will be even better.
Its possible something like say Neuro Disruptors which I think most would say are overcosted (even if they look good on paper) suddenly become really good if you reliably shoot twice every turn. Or fire dragons (which are good anyway). Scourges potentially become more reliable if you can get two rounds of shooting.
We don't have the book in hand yet (most of us) but we have seen his full data slate and he has no illicit permission to use sanctic as a demon lol. Beyond that it is really stupid to give a demon that feeds on souls Sanctic. Not sure I'd want to run sanctic though, perils on any double which could really screw him and some of the powers are terrible on him. Hammer hand isn't real useful, gate openly sucks when he already does it without scatter banishment is super situational, purge soul is bad. Really your looking at sanctuary which hilariously could hurt him or cleansing flame. I'd stick with revenant and cast that spell that mauls Leonardo DiCaprio with an astral bear
This is taken from the Harlequin thread that I just resurrected and comes from the perspective of someone who wants to primarily run Harlequins.
Personally, the loss of run+charge that you get from a straight masque detatchmeant (the Harlequin CAD type formation) seems too much. You can get that by running a Cegorath's Revenge formation, but then you are paying for a whole bunch of stuff that you might not need or want.
Seemingly, anything you could do before for Halreuqins and an allied CAD you can do now. The only two upshots I see:
1) the pseudo 3rd edition consolidation from combat into combat that Soulburst can provide after destroying an enemy unit.
2) larger troops hitching lifts in Raiders
I don't know if these outweigh the tax of taking a Cegorath's Revenge formation or the loss of taking just 'plain' Harlequins in a Ynari CAD when you can get run+charge from a normal Masque detachment.
Yes, you lose run+charge unless you run Jest or Revenge. My first list is going to be mainly focused around a bit of experimentation.
So far, I'm considering a Revenge formation with 2 Starweaver squads of harlies, 1 anti-infantry Raider squad with seer and jester, Imriam and the Blades of Fate, and then the CAD portion filled out with a min unit of scatbikes, an autarch with bike+mask+shard joining either reavers or Blades, Raider and 6 Reavers in FA, and a big 15-wych blob, which will hopefully advance with Imriam and a MoS seer and be relatively protected while trying to stay within Soulburst range of the transports, one of which will inevitably go down early hopefully giving them a nice double move. Use Wytches as Anvil, Harlequins as Hammer, and use the threat of Soulburst to split off solo ICs to be more useful.
The big downside of Revenge in my experience has been the vulnerability of the ICs, not the cost. If I want to run primarily harlies, if I have Soulburst i don't mind splitting ICs as long as I keep them within 7" of a threatening squad. that way I hope to get more mileage out of the Death Jester.
I know the old standards are going to end up optimal, but I think I'm going to spend a long time testing out oddball units like the wych blob and see how they do.
I collect Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlies...so this book is amazing for me. Being able to use all three codex without the juggling of 'tax' units and transport restrictions is going to be amazing.
I'm not entirely sold on the new triumvirate rules. They look...ok? Kinda expensive for what they do though. Revenant discipline doesn't look particularly amazing - especially combined with the double perils thing.
The REAL standouts here are going to be a couple of combos.
WWP Wraithguard being able to soulburst when they come on, shooting two units is amazing.
Warp Spiders doing the same, and losing battle focus doesn't hurt them too much given their huge mobility.
Free access to shadowseers, artifacts of cruelty makes the leadership circus bomb very easy to build.
That Artifact which gives FNP, EW and IWND to a model seems rubbish, given you lose IC....but, if you take it on a farseer as part of a Seer council, it doesn't matter. Seer council rules mean the farseers cannot leave the warlocks and must form a single unit anyway, so that's awesome. Shadowseers grant H&R, Veil and Move through cover (flipbelts), buffing seer council even more! Losing BF for the council doesn't mean anything.. But being able to assault two units (or more through multi-charge) is pretty amazing.
Do people think that Inarim's Spectre will be usable with the Reborn Warhost? He's not on the list of units, but he's essentially an upgraded Death jester.
The Warlord traits are pretty baller. Selecting Psychic powers if flatout amazing. (yes, my farseer will take invisbility, fortune and doom. - thanks).
Here's a fun combo when you get to pick your powers (1/3 games):
1) Grab a squad of wraith guard
2) Insert DE Archon w/WWP for no scatter deep strike
3) Also have your friend the farseer in that squad
4) Farseer picks perfect timing + invis + gate
4) After demolishing 1-2 squads, proceed on your next turn to use gate of infinity
5) Arrive wherever you want and murder 1-2 more squads
Cent star has nothing on this! Except more reliable durability. And doesn't need to hope they roll perfect powers.
Belly wrote: I collect Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlies...so this book is amazing for me. Being able to use all three codex without the juggling of 'tax' units and transport restrictions is going to be amazing.
I'm not entirely sold on the new triumvirate rules. They look...ok? Kinda expensive for what they do though. Revenant discipline doesn't look particularly amazing - especially combined with the double perils thing.
The REAL standouts here are going to be a couple of combos.
WWP Wraithguard being able to soulburst when they come on, shooting two units is amazing.
Warp Spiders doing the same, and losing battle focus doesn't hurt them too much given their huge mobility.
Free access to shadowseers, artifacts of cruelty makes the leadership circus bomb very easy to build.
That Artifact which gives FNP, EW and IWND to a model seems rubbish, given you lose IC....but, if you take it on a farseer as part of a Seer council, it doesn't matter. Seer council rules mean the farseers cannot leave the warlocks and must form a single unit anyway, so that's awesome. Shadowseers grant H&R, Veil and Move through cover (flipbelts), buffing seer council even more! Losing BF for the council doesn't mean anything.. But being able to assault two units (or more through multi-charge) is pretty amazing.
Do people think that Inarim's Spectre will be usable with the Reborn Warhost? He's not on the list of units, but he's essentially an upgraded Death jester.
The Warlord traits are pretty baller. Selecting Psychic powers if flatout amazing. (yes, my farseer will take invisbility, fortune and doom. - thanks).
Inriam, BoF, etc all stipulate that they can replace their equivalents in a Formation/Masque detachment, right? If so, the only way you can get them in is through a formation.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Remember, you can summon him on their turn. Which lets you charge on yours.
luke1705 wrote: Here's a fun combo when you get to pick your powers (1/3 games):
1) Grab a squad of wraith guard
2) Insert DE Archon w/WWP for no scatter deep strike
3) Also have your friend the farseer in that squad
4) Farseer picks perfect timing + invis + gate
4) After demolishing 1-2 squads, proceed on your next turn to use gate of infinity
5) Arrive wherever you want and murder 1-2 more squads
Cent star has nothing on this! Except more reliable durability. And doesn't need to hope they roll perfect powers.
Perfect timing isn't really needed. Scythes obviously ignore it, and the wraithcannons are more suitable for single model units...where I usually just plan on rolling a 6. Guide/prescience may be better. Forewarning's good too.
I'm thinking a Freakshow Deathstar. ('Freakstar?')
From a Reborn Warhost detachment:
Seer Council (Telepathy Farseer/Runes Farseer)
Visarch
Succubus with WWP, Armor of Misery
Shadowseer (mask of Secrets)
An Corsair detachment might not go amiss either, with an allied Dreamer giving them the possibility to teleport hither and yon across the battlefied.
luke1705 wrote: Here's a fun combo when you get to pick your powers (1/3 games):
1) Grab a squad of wraith guard
2) Insert DE Archon w/WWP for no scatter deep strike
3) Also have your friend the farseer in that squad
4) Farseer picks perfect timing + invis + gate
4) After demolishing 1-2 squads, proceed on your next turn to use gate of infinity
5) Arrive wherever you want and murder 1-2 more squads
Cent star has nothing on this! Except more reliable durability. And doesn't need to hope they roll perfect powers.
Perfect timing isn't really needed. Scythes obviously ignore it, and the wraithcannons are more suitable for single model units...where I usually just plan on rolling a 6. Guide/prescience may be better. Forewarning's good too.
I'm sure there are situations where both have their merit.
I wonder if there are any cheap suicide squad models that can reliably give you more extra actions? We don't have access to any units that don't give up VP when they die, do we?
luke1705 wrote: Here's a fun combo when you get to pick your powers (1/3 games):
1) Grab a squad of wraith guard
2) Insert DE Archon w/WWP for no scatter deep strike
3) Also have your friend the farseer in that squad
4) Farseer picks perfect timing + invis + gate
4) After demolishing 1-2 squads, proceed on your next turn to use gate of infinity
5) Arrive wherever you want and murder 1-2 more squads
Cent star has nothing on this! Except more reliable durability. And doesn't need to hope they roll perfect powers.
Perfect timing isn't really needed. Scythes obviously ignore it, and the wraithcannons are more suitable for single model units...where I usually just plan on rolling a 6. Guide/prescience may be better. Forewarning's good too.
I'm sure there are situations where both have their merit.
I wonder if there are any cheap suicide squad models that can reliably give you more extra actions? We don't have access to any units that don't give up VP when they die, do we?
Not that i'm aware of. Something like a deep striking venom with Blasterborn or even just Kabalites would do it. Those paper planes die so easily, and are such a juicy target. Have deepstrike aswel, so dropping own down next to the WWP unit is easy. You could even DS that venom first, and place the unit after you know if/where the venom scatters.
Actually I'm wondering if a few solo chimera might be worthwhile. 10 points a squad, could cap an objective if need be. Could also get pretty close on turn 2 if there's any BLOS in between, but sadly no deep strike. Generally speaking, you might give up a few kill points early/mid game, but you'll always get a free action of some kind as long as you keep it close to a unit if they kill it. 10 points and a kill point for me to shoot my wraith knight during your turn? OK deal
luke1705 wrote: Actually I'm wondering if a few solo chimera might be worthwhile. 10 points a squad, could cap an objective if need be. Could also get pretty close on turn 2 if there's any BLOS in between, but sadly no deep strike. Generally speaking, you might give up a few kill points early/mid game, but you'll always get a free action of some kind as long as you keep it close to a unit if they kill it. 10 points and a kill point for me to shoot my wraith knight during your turn? OK deal
Gives you 10 MSU units to Soul Burst of from and harass/movement block etc etc Just tack it onto the Reborn detachment and profit. Basically if you shoot a unit of say Warp spiders at an enemy hoping to wipe them and fail, in the assault phase jetpack move them closer and send in a sacrificial dog. They kill the dog, you trigger another free shooting shooting attack to finish off the target.
Wow I bet you could even use a wraith knights stomps to gain free triggers. Assault a target you can kill (a vehicle works) then start stomping, flip a template onto a khymera or better yet a beast master since it can't save, immediately assault another target.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Remember, you can summon him on their turn. Which lets you charge on yours.
I missed that! Also, can the Yncarne bounce around the board, or is she only summoned once a game? I assume its the former, because of the "Even if she is in reserves" phrase.
The Yrvaine really doesn't seem worth it, she cots too farseers for less effectiveness and no ability to take bikes. Thoughts on how to use her?
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Remember, you can summon him on their turn. Which lets you charge on yours.
I missed that! Also, can the Yncarne bounce around the board, or is she only summoned once a game? I assume its the former, because of the "Even if she is in reserves" phrase.
The Yrvaine really doesn't seem worth it, she cots too farseers for less effectiveness and no ability to take bikes. Thoughts on how to use her?
Everytime something dies, you can move the Yncarne to where they stood. But you cannot charge this turn.
Wow I bet you could even use a wraith knights stomps to gain free triggers. Assault a target you can kill (a vehicle works) then start stomping, flip a template onto a khymera or better yet a beast master since it can't save, immediately assault another target.
You don't even need the Raider detachment. I just grabbed 3 solo khymera squads as my fast attack choices from the detachment since my warp spider needs were filled with the Aspect Host. And tbh, I don't want to give up TOO many kill points all in one turn. Especially since my army in particular won't deploy very much, with 3 warp spider squads and a 10 man blob of wraith guard all coming in from deep strike reserve.....hmm maybe it's worth getting some sort of reserves manipulation. Anything cheaper than comms relay on a bunker?
So the Black Guardian datasheets have been leaked and they do count as Faction: Eldar and have Battle Focus. This is lost if they are taken in a Ynnari detachement as per normal.
If you take an Ulthwe Strike Force as a stand alone (not Ynnari), you could Deep Strike in and use Battle Focus to get into Melta/Flamer range. Is this worth it? I love the USF for bikes, but I was wondering if the diversity would be worth it, or if they'll just be too expensive for a suicide unit?
nintura wrote: So how does one take a USF as part of Ynnari and how does one take one outside of it? Examples?
The USF is a dethachment all by itself. I'm not actually sure if it can be included as part of the Reborn Warhost, but Black Gaurdian units can.
Since it is its own detachment, you just take it. Like it was another CAD or formation. For example, I could have a CWECAD with the following: Farseer Skyrunner 2x 3 Scatterbikes 2 Hornets WK Landing Pad
And then I can add the USF as a second detachment: 4x 3 Black Scattterbikes
EDIT: I just realized how expensive Black Gaurdians are with the +3ppm. For small 3-elf bike units, it is not big deal, but each 10-elf Guardian units, it's a whopping 30+ pts per model. Once you get close to the 150p mark, you are no longer an effective suicide unit. Especially with only 2 Flamers/Meltas.
K, obvious follow up question as I've always kept my army lists simple due to not really understanding formations/detachmetns, etc. What makes it a detachment? Is it actually listed on the section it's in?
I dont play in a highly competitive environ, but mostly semi-competitive. I was planning to take 3-4 units of guardians in falcons with melta's and DS them for objectives or cherry shots. Figured with that many shots, even power armor won't last long against blade storm. Mostly a way to take a corner of their board from them and use the falcons to provide cover.
nintura wrote: K, obvious follow up question as I've always kept my army lists simple due to not really understanding formations/detachmetns, etc. What makes it a detachment? Is it actually listed on the section it's in?
The fact that it is a detachment makes it a detachment. I am really not trying to be snarky, but I really don't know how else to answer.
nintura wrote: K, obvious follow up question as I've always kept my army lists simple due to not really understanding formations/detachmetns, etc. What makes it a detachment? Is it actually listed on the section it's in?
I dont play in a highly competitive environ, but mostly semi-competitive. I was planning to take 3-4 units of guardians in falcons with melta's and DS them for objectives or cherry shots. Figured with that many shots, even power armor won't last long against blade storm. Mostly a way to take a corner of their board from them and use the falcons to provide cover.
A detachment is just a grouping of models. Examples of detachments include:
So a formation is a TYPE of detachment. A detachment may be just one formation (or may be a number of formations that count as only one detachment due to their special rules. Where this is the case, it will be stated in the rules for the formation detachment).
It's more than moderately confusing the first time you think about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, after some consideration, my attempt at an 1850 Reborn Warhost (which I think could be pretty competitive):
Reborn Warhost 1:
Farseer, jet bike, spirit stone
Farseer, jet bike
10 wraith guard (cannons)
Shadowseer, ML2
5 windriders, all scatter lasers
5 windriders, all scatter lasers
1 khymera
1 khymera
Skatach Wraithknight (not sure if I can include this guy or if he needs to be a regular wraithknight)
Aspect host (15 warp spiders)
Reborn Warhost 2:
Archon, web way portal
Autarch, banshee mask
3 windriders
3 windriders
Does duplicate one detachment but has a good amount of mobile obsec and a ton of firepower, plus some decent durability. Still ITC legal which is all I'm about.
luke1705 wrote: Here's a fun combo when you get to pick your powers (1/3 games):
1) Grab a squad of wraith guard
2) Insert DE Archon w/WWP for no scatter deep strike
3) Also have your friend the farseer in that squad
4) Farseer picks perfect timing + invis + gate
4) After demolishing 1-2 squads, proceed on your next turn to use gate of infinity
5) Arrive wherever you want and murder 1-2 more squads
Cent star has nothing on this! Except more reliable durability. And doesn't need to hope they roll perfect powers.
Not sure on your wording, but WWP can no longer be used to allow no scatter on gate of infinity - DEFAQ covers that. Otherwise I have been thinking something similar.
Don't forget to give your warlord the spirit stone of cast on 1 less WC.
EDIT - looking at the list you have the stone.
Skathatch isn't an option for Reborn Warhost. That is clear and its an issue with it and the imperial one in fall of cadia.
I'd consider getting the leadership debuff on your archon, since you can easily grab psychic shirek on your star.
I'd personally make dual mini stars but not sure that is better, just more flexible
It is also important to note that while the Reborn Warhost is essentially a CAD that can include Formations, it does not actually provide ObSec. And I noted in YMDC that a Skathach WK can only be included as part of a WraithHost due to it not being included in the list of units available combined with its own ability to replace the regular WK in the WraithHost
Thanks for the advice guys. Been a while since I broke out the Eldar.
TBH, I think forge world's intention is probably to be able to replace a normal wraithknight, but I see that it's only able to be done in the Wraithhost currently.
Also it appears you're right about the loss of obsec. I thought it was a Montka-esque detachment where any detachment could be a Reborn Warhost detachment (thus retaining obsec). Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
Ynnead's Net looks the most dangerous of all the new formations, the main drawback obviously being the Conclave being a relative tax.
The Bladehost looks like it has a silly RAW loophole. I imagine it will be FAQ'd, but since transports are considered part of their Formation, "United in Death" looks like it could allow you to trigger the *entire* formation to Soulburst, including said Transports. Aka "Why yes, I want my Venoms/Wave Serpents/etc to fire twice."
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
luke1705 wrote: Yeah I made room for him. Was trying to avoid it, but I think he's pretty necessary. And can't be alpha-struck off the table like a bunker.
Bring a comms on an aegis defense line. Also cheaper and can't be killed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: What is with the number 7? I thought they were trying to wake Ynnead, not Nurgle.
But seriously, those benefits are nice. Not over the top, but nice
Ynnead is supposed to have revealed the 7th path which avoids the destruction of the eldar as a doomed race.
Galef wrote: 7th path, huh? Makes sense. I like it when the rules have quirky measurements other than 6, 12, 18, 24, etc.
I don't, keep it to the fluff, it isn't like the in world GW universe is using 7 as a metric for the Ynari. It is another arbitrary number people need to remember. I wish they made ALL bubble affects standard.
gummyofallbears wrote: So, he can't charge on a player turn or a game turn when he uses inevitable death? I heard the former from Nintura, but the latter from my friend.
Rulebook states that any reference to turn refers to player turn. His rules state 'may not charge in a turn in which it uses this ability'. So that applies to the player turn in which it is used. So Nintura was correct.
Bring a comms on an aegis defense line. Also cheaper and can't be killed.
There's no fortification slot for the reborn warhost. Would need an actual CAD or some other detachment with a fortification slot.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Yea I laughed when i read he had sanctic as a dicipline, I forgot as a demon he can't use it but was laughing at the prospect of him casting sanctuary and burning his legs on dangerous terrain such a derp moment for GW on that one.
The Yncarn is an MC, so has Move Through Cover and automatically passes Dangerous Terrain checks.
It seems like the only worthwhile thing to take on the Yncarne because it's gonna be sitting there doing nothing for at least a turn, so some shooting is good... And it can't take off santic (although sanctuary would be awesome)
Yea I laughed when i read he had sanctic as a dicipline, I forgot as a demon he can't use it but was laughing at the prospect of him casting sanctuary and burning his legs on dangerous terrain such a derp moment for GW on that one.
The Yncarn is an MC, so has Move Through Cover and automatically passes Dangerous Terrain checks.
I thought sanctuary got around that? Makes sense the power would be useless against the important demons anyway. Besides that isn't the point, it's the irony of him casting an anti demon power as a demon, come on.
Just trying to think of ways to get the best out of the Blade host and as they seem a bit underwhelming. United in Death is great on paper, but..
I can only think of popping it with Word of the Phoenix to get basically 6 free Soulbursts instead of 1 (a free move most likely) or;
Use the Storm guardians to tag-team a weak unit with 4 flamers and their pistols and then get all 6 units into assault or
Give the Storm Guardians Fusion Guns and the Harlequins Fusion Pistols to pop tanks (but they'd have to be disembarked) or alternatively go Full Embrace and use the HoW to kill a soft target at I10 and then UiD everyone to get them assaulting at their own initiative step or shooting again.
In general though:
Flamer units like this book as 7" is roughly the length of a template, so Scytheguard and Wraithlords in particular get a nice buff. Flame something to death and then either rinse and repeat or assault it. Should be a nice way to thin out T3 5+/6+ hordes in short order if you can Soften them up with ranged fire and then double tap the flamers each turn.
Doom, death, destruction. For Eldar, for us all. Who knows. The Eldar only care about the 7th path, which is the only one that leads to them possibly, POSSIBLY surviving.
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
Sweet baby Jesus. Does that mean that you get the benefit all game long?
I restate, sweet baby Jesus. So long Obsec. Can't say you didn't do anything for us but this is bonkers
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
Sweet baby Jesus. Does that mean that you get the benefit all game long?
I restate, sweet baby Jesus. So long Obsec. Can't say you didn't do anything for us but this is bonkers
not sure what your asking, the effect of soulburst is immediately resolved and can only effect a unit once a turn, so it doesn't last any longer then once it triggers. The detachment benefit sounds ambiguous, but since it says "includes seven of more units" (emphasis mine) which is a present tense of the word I would imagine you lose the benefit once you drop below 7 similar to how canticles of the omnisia is a sliding rule. I am sure it will be a hot topic for debate until FAQ's though.
Ok, so I did some list writing with the reborn warhost detachment.
One thing I did notice as I was working on some combinations, is how much Yvraine and the Visarch can tank between themselves, even without psychic buffs. Now their stats are no great, with a 4++ and 3+ between them, but the ability to pass off wounds, and regen wounds is kinda neat.
So you place Yvraine at the head of a big ass unit of guardians. The Visarch is nearby, but not the closest model. Put a good 5-6 guardians closer to Yvraine. Start taking wounds on Yvraine. If she fails a couple of saves, pass a couple of wounds over to the Visarch, using the ability to auto pass look out sirs. So now maybe the Visarch has taken a couple of wounds. You may now start ROLLING los, and passing these wounds to Guardians. If a guardian dies, both Yvraine & the Visarch regen a wound on a 4+. Both Yvraine & the Visarch have eternal warrior of course, so no need to worry about high strength.
I’ve written a list to take to a casual style tournament in a month or so. Hoping to get the models painted, but I’m mainly just looking to try out the new rules. Here’s what I’m thinking;
Triumvirate formation; Yvraine, Visarch, Yncarne
Reborn Warhost;
Farseer
Spiritseer
20 Guardians w/ Warlock
5 Kabalites w/ Venom
10 Black Storm Guardians w/ 2 Meltas
5 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch, riding in a FA Venom
Shadowseer, ML2, Mask of Secrets
5 Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
6 Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch.
Farseer is warlord, and looks to get the 14'' Soulburst, or choose psychic powers trait.
Choosing Psychic powers is crazy with a farseer. Fortune, Forewarning and Doom please!
Not gonna put those 3 Aspects w/ Exarchs in an Aspect Host for +1 BS?
I'll say one thing for Strength from Death: You will want to be specific in the order you shoot things. If you trigger a unit to Soulburst and shoot, it won't be able to shoot again that turn. The rule only allows for being a repeat action, not simply unlocking a free action.
Goobi2 wrote: Not gonna put those 3 Aspects w/ Exarchs in an Aspect Host for +1 BS?
I'll say one thing for Strength from Death: You will want to be specific in the order you shoot things. If you trigger a unit to Soulburst and shoot, it won't be able to shoot again that turn. The rule only allows for being a repeat action, not simply unlocking a free action.
Yup, will add the aspect host!
I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about with repeating an action. All the rules leaks I’ve seen so far, state nothing of the sort.
Can anyone comment on the formation bonus for the Triumvirate? I'd not seen anything on it.
I mean Strength from Death can let you make a shooting action with a unit, even if you already have that turn. If you made a unit shoot with Strength from Death first, it could not shoot a second time that turn as per the rules it had already shot that turn. So say you have two units, one within 7" of a target and another outside of it. If you shot with the outside unit first and used the Strength from Death on the inside unit to immediately shoot, you would only get those two shooting actions. Had the closer unit already shot, it would be allowed to shoot again. That would allow for three shooting actions between those two units.
Say you were in a Reborn Warhost with more than 7 units: Two of your units (say Warp Spiders) are within 7'' of a couple of enemy transports. The first unit shoots and destroys a transport. You now have the option of triggering SfD on both your units. However, since shooting with the 2nd unit with SfD would stop you from just shooting normally, you should only activate it for the unit that has already fired. The 2nd unit then has a chance to activate its own SfD by shooting and destroying the other transport.
You also wouldn't want to preemptively activate a unit's PfD for Movement (a safe distance from the target) or Charging (before getting some shooting in) in a fashion that can inhibit your shooting ability.
The point is that you need to be extra careful who shoots what and in what order.
----------------
Also, I believe the Formation bonus for the Triumvirate is something like Fearless within 12'' while two of the formation models are on the board and Fearless table wide when all three are on the board. Something along those lines. And the +1 to their respective get a wound back rolls.
Goobi2 wrote: I mean Strength from Death can let you make a shooting action with a unit, even if you already have that turn. If you made a unit shoot with Strength from Death first, it could not shoot a second time that turn as per the rules it had already shot that turn. So say you have two units, one within 7" of a target and another outside of it. If you shot with the outside unit first and used the Strength from Death on the inside unit to immediately shoot, you would only get those two shooting actions. Had the closer unit already shot, it would be allowed to shoot again. That would allow for three shooting actions for those two units.
Interesting, I’ll have to check the BRB as to what it says.
Having done some thinking on the uses of PFD, I think the major implications will be in your opponents turn, and trying to bait their firepower into shooting/assaulting units to trigger PFD. It's why I've got those black guardian meltas in the army.
Turn 1, I try and bait PFD using the two venom units. Looking for PFD to advance the guardian blob. Turn 2, the hawks, spiders, and guardians look to trigger it for them.
I just noticed the new avatar has eternal warrior but the old one doesn't. I am now really really mad.
Would a webway portal archon be good in a unit of fire dragons? Point and click removal of any unit on the table seems great. Also are kabalite/guardians good in 20 man squads, or would it be better to put them in transports?
Galef wrote: And with the range of the Scatterlaser, it will be quite easy to Deep Strike far away, right next to a LoS blocking piece of terrain, in side/rear armour, plink your shots, the scoot out of LoS.
This will absolutely be standard for Eldar tourney lists
Indeed, such lists can be absolutely mean.
And its part of GW's success these days. Release supplementary books with new strong formations. A must-have for each Eldar player.
Don Savik wrote: I just noticed the new avatar has eternal warrior but the old one doesn't. I am now really really mad.
Would a webway portal archon be good in a unit of fire dragons? Point and click removal of any unit on the table seems great. Also are kabalite/guardians good in 20 man squads, or would it be better to put them in transports?
If you’re looking to WWP something, Wraithguard are probably a better option. More expensive, but they get T6. Cannons are amazing for knights and single high value models. Just for the chance to roll a 6 on destroyer. The scythes are better for units of…pretty much anything and everything. They’re also never going to get charged because of their crazy overwatch. If any of these units succeed in killing something, they’ll get a soulburst action, to potentially kill another thing
On guardians/kabalites – there’s much better options if you want to put things in transports. Fire dragons in a venom is a good idea. I will be trialing 20 guardians on foot, with warlock and a couple of attached characters. I think it’ll be a solid unit. Mostly because their huge footprint means they’ll get soulburst actions easily. The revenant power that gives +1 A, WS, BS, L & I will be pretty amazing with 20 bodies. Throw in the option for things like prescience, misfortune, runes of battle powers and doom…and they can take out pretty much anything in combat.
I’ve allied DE a bit in the past, and 5 kabalites in a venom with two splinter cannons is a solid little unit for a very small cost. They also make a great way to get soulburst actions. Venom’s explode…very easily. Keep it within 7’ of a unit and get a free move!
Considering my pure Harlequin list had to take extra voidweavers and other rubbish to fill points, i can instead throw a Farseer, a pair of windrider squads, and the Jest and be able to charge if someone nearby bites it?
Heck, dont even have to worry about overkill anymore if there is an enemy nearby.
Haywire grenades also become a bit better on Harlequin characters, because they're initiative 7.
You can assault a transport with a single HP left, destroy it with the grenade at initiative step 7, soulburst-charge the unit that was inside and still have your initiative 6 attacks.
There are many combos that can rely on assaulting a transport, and then either shooting or assaulting the passengers.
Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
nintura wrote: Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
They get Strength from Death when taken as a part of the Reborn Warhost instead of an USF. If they are in the Warhost they lose Battle Focus. So if you want something to benefit from SfD for your USF, you want to add a Ynnari detachment.
Since an Black Guardians can't be close enough to benefit from SfD via Webway Assault, you may consider advancing other units up close to take advantage of their sudden, precise firepower. (Or simply nearby, like you suggested, take advantage of the Black Guardians potential death. Though, that's not quite as effective as two PfD units.)
nintura wrote: Quick question as I dont have the book yet, but should later today. In the Ulthwe Strike Force, we now know they still get the Eldar Battle Focus, but do they gain from the new Strength rule? Or would you want something of yours up there with them so they can benefit from it if something in your USF dies?
They get Strength from Death when taken as a part of the Reborn Warhost instead of an USF. If they are in the Warhost they lose Battle Focus. So if you want something to benefit from SfD for your USF, you want to add a Ynnari detachment.
Since an Black Guardians can't be close enough to benefit from SfD via Webway Assault, you may consider advancing other units up close to take advantage of their sudden, precise firepower. (Or simply nearby, like you suggested, take advantage of the Black Guardians potential death. Though, that's not quite as effective as two PfD units.)
So you can't really give your USF both rules correct? Also, you CAN be close enough. Remember, when disembarking you can deploy them up to 6" away.
I think it's because I'm still getting detachments confused. Basically the USF is a box and the Ynnari detachment is another box of the same size, and you can't fit one into the other.
Black Guardian units have Battle Focus, but if they are taken as Elite choices in a Reborn Warhost, they swap it for SfD. The USF is not a valid option for the Reborn Warhost, so if you are taking your BGs in the USF, they will have Battle Focus and not SfD.
Be carefully about using Transports with BGs, Nintura. There is no BG Wave Serpent and there is no indication that Webway Assault extended to DTs, so we must assume that it doesn't.
They don't have a dedicated transport, so you'll need to spend a fast attack slot to get one. The transport wont benefit from Webway Assault to get deepstrike, let alone turn one. So you'd need to include an Archon, and your transport would have to be a Wave Serpent.
If you are using an Archon's WWP to bring them in, you might as well use normal Guardians to save points since the Archon wouldn't be able to come in 1st turn and gets precision deepstrike anyway.
So yes, Black Guardians can be in position after deepstrike to use PfD, but the cost to make it happen is very high. The same task could be done with regular Guardians using a dedicated transport instead of a fast attack.
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That said, I am extremely excited about using an USF. It opens a world of options!
Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
Thought of something interesting to do with SfD & melee units with no Grenades. Since using a Soulburst to assault a unit that is already resolving its attacks forces you to continue resolving at the current Initiative step (potentally losing HoW or regular attacks if that step has passed), what about using a suicide unit to brunt the enemy attacks, then charge in with a unit that will strike at I1?
Example: Step 1: Position Shining Spears or Incubi within charge range of the target and Soulburst range of the suicide unit. Step 2: Use suicide unit, lets say 1-2 Khymera, to assault the target Step 3: The target obliterates the suicide unit at their Initiative, triggering Soulburst Step 4: Spears or Incubi use Soulburst to assault the target through cover. Step 5: The target has already attacked and cannot do so again, continue resolving the combat. Spears or Incubi strike at I1.
Wait, why use the middleman? You could use a unit of, say, Skyweavers and assault a unit in the open, wipe them out, and charge a unit in cover. You hit at I6, then again at the I1 step.
Also, here's a question that hasn't come up yet: ICs and Soulburst. Let's say a unit is joined by an IC, and they use Soulburst to charge. I'm assuming everyone agrees the IC and squad both get to use the Soulburst action to charge...but can they in theory charge two different targets? Ics can split off at any time by leaving coherency with the unit, right?
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
the_scotsman wrote: Wait, why use the middleman? You could use a unit of, say, Skyweavers and assault a unit in the open, wipe them out, and charge a unit in cover. You hit at I6, then again at the I1 step.
Also, here's a question that hasn't come up yet: ICs and Soulburst. Let's say a unit is joined by an IC, and they use Soulburst to charge. I'm assuming everyone agrees the IC and squad both get to use the Soulburst action to charge...but can they in theory charge two different targets? Ics can split off at any time by leaving coherency with the unit, right?
You use the middleman because it allows you to control the situation better. The enemy is not always going to have his units so close, nor is there a guarantee that you can wipe the first unit to gain the Soulburst. It is pretty likely, however that an enemy can wipe a Khmyera. But I think both tactics are sound.
And no, IC's can only leave/join in YOUR movement phase. I don't think Eldar have any way to gain a Soulburst action in the movement phase. You could use the Soullburt for the additional move to detach the IC, but then you have used your Soulburst and cannot charge with it (you could still charge normally though in your actual Assault phase)
luke1705 wrote: Have we actually seen the list of command benefits yet? I've seen special rules but no actual list of command benefits.
As far as we know, there are none aside from Strength from Death. But since most meta-detachments like this have a Warlord Trait re-roll and we haven't seen that yet, it is possible that there are other benefits and a page that hasn't been leaked.
From someone with the book (these are in the ipad glossary I think,so sort of confirmed)
- Leader of the Reborn : standard warlord trait re-roll
- Our Souls we entrust : all units gain Stubborn. A unit from the detachment within 7" of another units from the same detachment don't make morale cheks when it loses 25%+ of it's models
- Warhost of Ynnead: if you got 7+ units, you can select another unit to make a Soulburst action
Ok so sounds like no obsec. Could you elaborate on the warhost of ynnead? Are you saying that as long as you have 7 units....on the table....that you get a free soulburst action each turn?
Exact wording is "If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."
Sweet baby Jesus. Does that mean that you get the benefit all game long?
I restate, sweet baby Jesus. So long Obsec. Can't say you didn't do anything for us but this is bonkers
not sure what your asking, the effect of soulburst is immediately resolved and can only effect a unit once a turn, so it doesn't last any longer then once it triggers. The detachment benefit sounds ambiguous, but since it says "includes seven of more units" (emphasis mine) which is a present tense of the word I would imagine you lose the benefit once you drop below 7 similar to how canticles of the omnisia is a sliding rule. I am sure it will be a hot topic for debate until FAQ's though.
EDIT:
Just checked the wording on canticles and it's definitely very different. At minimum, you don't need the units to be on the field (could keep several small units in reserves - beast masters OP!)
Regardless, even if you accept that there still have to be 7 units not dead in the army, the only real way I've heard to counter the soulburst is to slim down our units and NOT kill them outright in their turn, but this would mean that that is counterproductive since you leave us operating at a good clip of efficiency throughout.
Truly, though, I imagine that this will be a point of contention in YMDC and hope this gets resolved one way or the other sooner rather than later.
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
Instead of hiding behind Wave Serpents, you could instead do the following:
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
The question then becomes can SfD let you assault despite having Turbo-boosted or after firing a heavy/rapid fire weapon. As fantastic as that would be, I don't believe RAW would allow it.
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
I do not think that would work though. SfD allows the extra actions "even if they have already done so this turn", but I do not think it overrides the unit's ability to do said action if other factors prevent it.
Since you cannot assault after a Turbo-boost, SfD will not allow you to preform anything other than additional shooting/turboboost or another move. The same might apply to using a Soulburst to assault after firing Rapid-fire or Heavy weapons. Basically, Soulburst gives permission to make additional actions "as if it were your X phase", but it does not give us permission to ignore other restrictions, such as the above.
When resolving Soulburst, you have to ask "can I do this if it were my X phase?" If the answer is normally No, you cannot perform that action.
Deep strike anything USF and then move and turboboost Ynnari Skyweavers close to their targets, shoot things dead with USF (and battle focus away if applicable), then SfD charge Ynnari Skyweavers first turn, practically anywhere on the table. You can also do this with reavers.... Alpha strike combinations with USF and Ynnari SfD combo are superflous.
Would that work though? SfD allows the extra actions "even if they have already done so this turn", but I am not so sure it overrides the units ability to do said action if other factors prevent it.
Since you cannot assault after a Turbo-boost, I do not think SfD will allow you to preform anything other that additional shooting/turboboost or another move.
The same might apply to using a Soulburst to assault after firing Rapid-fire or Heavy weapons.
Basically, Soulburst gives permission to make additional actions "as if it were your X phase", but it does not give us permission to ignore other restrictions, such as the above.
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Well, I read up Turbo-boost rule again and it is in fact incompatible with entire SfD concept with its "any voluntary action" phrase. I stand corrected.
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
I may be missing something obvious, but how do the BGs deepstrike without Wave Serpents?
nintura wrote: Damn. So the only black guardians that can really benefit from the first turn deep strike are those that have deep strike naturally? I was really hoping to have them plus their wave serpents able to DS without scatter with meltas.
I have a hard time understanding the Deldar stuff as I've never read the codex or played the army. So essentially, there's no reason to have the USF if you're only wanting guardians out of it? (Not a fan of jetbikes because I dont feel like defending them every game....)
Also, dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to break the game or list, I just want to fully understand my options going forward.
My goal was to make a Ynnari list based on Ulthwe Eldar that converted to worshiping Ynnead. So essentially Ulthwe units backed up by Ynnari Eldar.
I wanted to be able to have a big group of Black Guardians that can deep strike T1 without scatter, taking control of a section of board while hiding behind the wave serpents for cover, letting my opponent chew on them for a couple turns while the rest of the Ynnari move up the board into range.
The only thing you can't do out of all that is Deepstrike Wave Serpents. You can drop in units of Black Guardians on turn 1 exactly where you want them, as long as it's not within 9" of an enemy.(Though I'll probably use Walkers) You can then shoot/Battle Focus as you choose.
Four Guardian units worth of fire power is enough to take a decent chunk out of enemy forces, so it will definitely help pave the way for Ynnari forces. If you can get those Ynnari forces up the board fast enough, you can even take advantage of the Guardians kills (and possibly the Guardians's deaths on the Enemy turn). Sadly, the Black Guardians won't have Wave Serpents to hide behind. However, with their precision deepstrike and Battle Focus, they can easily find good cover to hide behind.
I may be missing something obvious, but how do the BGs deepstrike without Wave Serpents?
All the black guardian units have deepstrike, don't scatter, and must be placed 9" away from an enemy unit.
As far as the reavers, you still get your deployment zone, a 12" move, and then can charge if you're close enough to receive the death bonus. Then charge again on your Assault phase. I really need to read the Deldar codex. I just want to do a normal type army list for now that allows me to do some things that I find fluffy. I'll worry about annihilating my opponents later So I can then DS first turn the war walkers? Too bad Wasps dont fit under that...
This makes me want to make some custom templates to show a webway assault in action. Place it on the ground and then place the models on top
All the black guardian units have deepstrike, don't scatter, and must be placed 9" away from an enemy unit.
And that is straight up just what is on their unit rules. Black Guardians can be taken as Elites for any Eldar army or in the Ynnari Reborn Warhost
If you take them in an USF, you get 1-4 units that get Preferred Enemy if the opponent has any Chaos units. And not necessarily against those Chaos units, but just because those unit exist in the other army. If the USF have its max 4 units, you may roll for reserves on Turn 1. You must be using the USF with 4 units to get the Turn 1 rolls, otherwise they follow the normal Reserve rules (rolling at the start of Turn 2)
Seems to me like the new options make the current top choices (scatterbikes, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights) even stronger -- anyone thinking that anything we're seeing here will shake up the tournament meta enough to allow other units into Eldar forces? It certainly becomes a lot easier to WWP wraithguard in!
nintura wrote: Man that sounds so effective. It's kinda like playing a drop pod army. Bout time some non-imperial army gets to DS on turn 1
It is better that a Drop Pod army because out units are more effective, we could get all the units in, not just half, and we don't have to spend points on Drop pods.
I could easily see an entire army of just multiple USFs that null deploys, gives 1st turn to the opponent, then drops in to annihilate units.
My current plan is to take a CAD with an Autarch, minimum bikes, a Skathach WK & either a VSG or Landing pad (maybe some Hornets). The rest of the army is a USF made of all bikes (maybe 1 BG unit on foot with Meltas, still not sold they are any good at their point).
I'll probably only deploy the WK and the Fort, then all the bikes drop in and pew-pew.
So we know Craftworld Eldar seem to lose Battle Focus if part of the Reborn Warhost, do we know if the Dark Eldar lose Power from Pain, Combat Drugs or both?
Nevermind, I found it. In case anyone was wondering, they keep Combat Drugs.
Galef wrote: Thought of something interesting to do with SfD & melee units with no Grenades.
Since using a Soulburst to assault a unit that is already resolving its attacks forces you to continue resolving at the current Initiative step (potentally losing HoW or regular attacks if that step has passed), what about using a suicide unit to brunt the enemy attacks, then charge in with a unit that will strike at I1?
Example:
Step 1: Position Shining Spears or Incubi within charge range of the target and Soulburst range of the suicide unit.
Step 2: Use suicide unit, lets say 1-2 Khymera, to assault the target
Step 3: The target obliterates the suicide unit at their Initiative, triggering Soulburst
Step 4: Spears or Incubi use Soulburst to assault the target through cover.
Step 5: The target has already attacked and cannot do so again, continue resolving the combat. Spears or Incubi strike at I1.
I think the Ynari can play a deep strike heavy army to great effect. Turn 1 deepstriking scatter laser bikes onto the objectives you need or into the rear of vehicles. turn 2+ D-scythe wraith guard are great to deep strike in. They could use a WWP or raider. The WWP cost more but is completely accurate. The Raider is cheap at 55pts and being open top you can shoot from any point on the raider, and the raiders design makes it easy to pivot so you get closer, then you can disembark 6" so it is really hard not to get into the perfect position. I think another great option is a archon with armor of misery and a shadowseer with the mask in a raider to give a -4ld bubble within 6" and a -2ld bubble within 12" This combined with psychic shriek is absolutely devastating, plus pinning shots from the shadowseer.
I think deploying a single wraithknight and an autarch may be an extremely common sight.
lambsandlions wrote: I think the Ynari can play a deep strike heavy army to great effect. Turn 1 deepstriking scatter laser bikes onto the objectives you need or into the rear of vehicles. turn 2+ D-scythe wraith guard are great to deep strike in. They could use a WWP or raider. The WWP cost more but is completely accurate. The Raider is cheap at 55pts and being open top you can shoot from any point on the raider, and the raiders design makes it easy to pivot so you get closer, then you can disembark 6" so it is really hard not to get into the perfect position. I think another great option is a archon with armor of misery and a shadowseer with the mask in a raider to give a -4ld bubble within 6" and a -2ld bubble within 12" This combined with psychic shriek is absolutely devastating, plus pinning shots from the shadowseer.
I think deploying a single wraithknight and an autarch may be an extremely common sight.
A couple things: The turn 1 deepstrike no scatter would not be with Ynnari units, but Eldar units in the uSF, but you can allie and do the saem thing Autarchs do not need to be on the board for the reserve bonus, just in the army, so just deploying a WK is all you'd need. I'm pretty excited for all the possibilites
Side question for the group: Have we discussed it the Wraithhost in a Reborn Warhost gets Battlefocus? Normally Battle Focus is a unit's special rule that gets replaced with SfD, but the Wraithhost specifically grants its units BF.
Well, is there anything that states a unit CANNOT have both? If not, I can't see why not. If they have SfD due to Ynnari detachment, but then gain Battle Focus from a formation, I don't see a problem.
It would seem to indicate that BF & PfP are lost if the model is of the Ynnari faction. There is no indication that it can be gained again. Since there is no "sequencing" for when bonuses are gained during army building, we would have to assume that BF is lost and remains lost for as long as the Wraiths are of the Ynnari Faction.
1. Get 2 big squads of scatbikes and add a shadowseer to each. Cast veil of tears and bam they got an almost just as good 'invis' if you stay at long range.
2. Scatter a few scatbikes units in front of these two big scatbike units. Since they don't have the pseudo-invis, they will most likely die first. If you have more than 7 units (easy), both of the big scatbikes unit will soulburst shooting.
3. Sprinkle in a farseer with guide/prescience for more fun.
4. Wraithknight should look for mid-board scouting units. Assuming you do find one, move within 7" during movement phase. Use the scatbikes to kill the mid-board unit. Wraithknight soulburst move another 12" and potentially setup a 1st turn charge.
5. This one may need a rule-check. Turbo-boost venom/raider with super melee unit within right up to 1" of enemy unit(s). When venom/raider is destroyed the melee unit charges in opponent's turn. There is no way to kill the melee unit before it soulburst charge (except for overwatch?). Essentially venom/raider now becomes an awesome protective assault vehicle like it should be.
6. Ensure you have 7 units (easy). Take two units of raiders and race/turbo across the board. When one of the raider pops, two units activate soulburst. You could potentially charge. You could also have 10-man on surviving raider open fire with splinter rack ... add some medusae for taste.
7. Always pair up your units. With the rule of no morale check when you lost 25% if you are near to another Ynnari units, your windriders (see point 1 and 2) are now pseudo-fearless.
8. Archon/wwp + 5 wraithguard is good. Archon/wwp + 4 Medusae in Venom/Raider could be just as fun. When you land, template/kill 1-2 MeQ units. When the venom/raider explodes template/kill more stuff. Good vs 'castle'. Could also be use without Archon/wwp for a cheaper unit. Could be paired with the 5 wraithguards. Could also be use 5 fire dragons.
It would seem to indicate that BF & PfP are lost if the model is of the Ynnari faction. There is no indication that it can be gained again.
Since there is no "sequencing" for when bonuses are gained during army building, we would have to assume that BF is lost and remains lost for as long as the Wraiths are of the Ynnari Faction.
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Yep, key being "if they have them". Makes sense. Being able to move 6 normally, plus 6 from SfD, then running d6, plus S flamers.... seems gross. Or moving 6 plus d6 then shooting twice is really gross.
1. Get 2 big squads of scatbikes and add a shadowseer to each. Cast veil of tears and bam they got an almost just as good 'invis' if you stay at long range.
2. Scatter a few scatbikes units in front of these two big scatbike units. Since they don't have the pseudo-invis, they will most likely die first. If you have more than 7 units (easy), both of the big scatbikes unit will soulburst shooting.
3. Sprinkle in a farseer with guide/prescience for more fun.
4. Wraithknight should look for mid-board scouting units. Assuming you do find one, move within 7" during movement phase. Use the scatbikes to kill the mid-board unit. Wraithknight soulburst move another 12" and potentially setup a 1st turn charge.
5. This one may need a rule-check. Turbo-boost venom/raider with super melee unit within right up to 1" of enemy unit(s). When venom/raider is destroyed the melee unit charges in opponent's turn. There is no way to kill the melee unit before it soulburst charge (except for overwatch?). Essentially venom/raider now becomes an awesome protective assault vehicle like it should be.
6. Ensure you have 7 units (easy). Take two units of raiders and race/turbo across the board. When one of the raider pops, two units activate soulburst. You could potentially charge. You could also have 10-man on surviving raider open fire with splinter rack ... add some medusae for taste.
7. Always pair up your units. With the rule of no morale check when you lost 25% if you are near to another Ynnari units, your windriders (see point 1 and 2) are now pseudo-fearless.
8. Archon/wwp + 5 wraithguard is good. Archon/wwp + 4 Medusae in Venom/Raider could be just as fun. When you land, template/kill 1-2 MeQ units. When the venom/raider explodes template/kill more stuff. Good vs 'castle'. Could also be use without Archon/wwp for a cheaper unit. Could be paired with the 5 wraithguards. Could also be use 5 fire dragons.
1. Expensive, but not bad
4. Be careful with this, We are probably measuring SfD from the last model removed, so you may very well kill the models out of range of the WK
5. That....seems like a very sound idea. Since you would have to disembark before removing the Raider/Venom, the unit is on the board to use SfD
6. How are you getting 2 units to Soulburst? Any units embarked in transports are not "on the board" to use Soulburst, so only the unit whose transport was blown up would get it
7. Nice. that no-morale rule really opens up MSU even more
I completely disagree with units getting Soulbursts from their transports dying, by the time you've placed the models on the table their transport is already dead, so removing it afterwards doesn't matter.
As for "last model removed", if a squad is completely wipped out from a single attack then it doesn't matter, they all removed at the same time. Definitely encourages us to go for bigger squads to overkill the target and try and trigger a Soulburst.
I thought people were arguing about all this "destroyed" stuff because the rules didn't provide a clear answer for what "destroyed" meant and when units were "destroyed."
turns out, I was wrong. it's in a couple places, but it's in here.
Page 13: "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been completely destroyed". Presumably then if, after any attack, there are >1 models in a unit, then the unit is not destroyed.
It goes on to explain that this includes units that run off the board due to morale. if you check the shooting section, you'll see that the sequence of shooting is to "completely resolve" each shooting attack individually, then the answer to "who can I draw range to when soulbursting using a shooting attack" is pretty clear. The answer is "Any of the models removed by the final attack that destroys the unit."
Then, the question of sequence of events for passengers embarked on a transport.
Page 82, effects of damage on passengers:
"Wrecked (other than flyers). The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner...any models that can't disembark are removed as casualties, this does not prevent the rest of the unit from disembarking. The unit must then take a pinning test. AFTER THIS, the vehicle becomes a wreck." (Emphasis mine)
Check if there are any other members of the vehicle's unit -> if no, the previously embarked unit is eligible to soulburst.
However, if you look at "Explodes"....
Page 81, explodes rules: "The vehicle is destroyed"
Page 82: "The unit suffers a number of hits...Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle USED TO BE and in unit coherency"
So, the answer to the "transport question" is: If the vehicle is wrecked, the passengers get out before the transport is destroyed, and may soulburst. If the vehicle explodes, the passengers are placed after the model is removed from play, and cannot soulburst off of the vehicle's removal.
I thought of a very interesting tactic. Take three unites of jetbikes, 2 windriders and 1 reaver. Deepstrike/turboboost the windriders 9" away from the opponent, then turboboost the reavers between the opponent and the windriders. If the opponent kills the reavers they get shot up by the scatter lasers on the windriders, plus wont be able to charge. If the opponent kills one unit of windrider, the other windriders shoot and then the reaver jetbikes charge in. This severely limits the opponents mobility and will probably result in the killing of one of the units. Basically the reavers act as protection for the windriders and also a damage multiplier should the reavers get shot at.
I am currently writing a list, and the formation takes up a ton of points. (625 to be specific). And although the bonuses are awesome, and I really want to field all three characters during my first game with Ynari, I really just think three characters is too much.
Any ideas on how to maximize the formation?
Additionally, any ideas on how to maximize Yvarine? She is probably the most mediocre of the triumvirate (IMO). She's an awesome 'battle psyker' but her price point of two farseers is just a lot.
Galef wrote: I just figured out something funny. In an Avatar on Avatar fight, Ynnead cannot hurt Khaine.
Ynnead's sword has Soulblaze. Khaine is immune to Soulblaze.
It a shame the new model isn't a dual kit to make either Avatar
Not quite. Soulblaze is a special rule that sets a unit on fire. He's immune to that rule. It doesn't mean the sword is made out of Soulblaze...
Thats what I thought, then I checked his rules and it says any attack with the Melta or Soulblaze special rule can't hurt him, so as written the Yncarn can't hurt the Avatar of Khaine.
Yep, the Avatar of Khaine has a great time fighting Tzeentch Daemons, since most of their stuff has Soul Blaze.
I think I can get that Soulbound formation to work, that extra Soulburst range may just be the thing to pull them into charge range. Though maintaining that Furious Charge rule would be a lot of work. Dire Avengers can get plenty of mileage, Incubi too (if they survive). Wyches.... should be fine if we get them in fast. I don't like sacrifices, either. However, if the enemy is foolish enough to target Wyches or transports first, I wont feel too bad about it. Best case scenario is I get them just outside of 12" out from the their front line, pop a unit and move up/charge.
If they haven't deployed aggressively, it's better to stay in the transports and hunt clusters.
That Bladehost formation... that one feels like it is going to lose units. Everything in it is squishy. On the otherhand, it makes it easy for the entire Formation to Soulburst and advance. Still each unit (other than Troupes) is only a little threatening in close combat. It would probably be a better idea to take Black Guardians for shooting than to take Storm Guardians.
Imateria wrote: I completely disagree with units getting Soulbursts from their transports dying, by the time you've placed the models on the table their transport is already dead, so removing it afterwards doesn't matter.
As for "last model removed", if a squad is completely wipped out from a single attack then it doesn't matter, they all removed at the same time. Definitely encourages us to go for bigger squads to overkill the target and try and trigger a Soulburst.
Agreed on both accounts. If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
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the_scotsman wrote: I thought people were arguing about all this "destroyed" stuff because the rules didn't provide a clear answer for what "destroyed" meant and when units were "destroyed."
turns out, I was wrong. it's in a couple places, but it's in here.
Page 13: "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been completely destroyed". Presumably then if, after any attack, there are >1 models in a unit, then the unit is not destroyed.
It goes on to explain that this includes units that run off the board due to morale. if you check the shooting section, you'll see that the sequence of shooting is to "completely resolve" each shooting attack individually, then the answer to "who can I draw range to when soulbursting using a shooting attack" is pretty clear. The answer is "Any of the models removed by the final attack that destroys the unit."
Then, the question of sequence of events for passengers embarked on a transport.
Page 82, effects of damage on passengers:
"Wrecked (other than flyers). The passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner...any models that can't disembark are removed as casualties, this does not prevent the rest of the unit from disembarking. The unit must then take a pinning test. AFTER THIS, the vehicle becomes a wreck." (Emphasis mine)
Check if there are any other members of the vehicle's unit -> if no, the previously embarked unit is eligible to soulburst.
However, if you look at "Explodes"....
Page 81, explodes rules: "The vehicle is destroyed"
Page 82: "The unit suffers a number of hits...Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle USED TO BE and in unit coherency"
So, the answer to the "transport question" is: If the vehicle is wrecked, the passengers get out before the transport is destroyed, and may soulburst. If the vehicle explodes, the passengers are placed after the model is removed from play, and cannot soulburst off of the vehicle's removal.
All that is meant by that line is the rule is defining what you do with the model. A wreck is a type of battlefield debris ie terrain. As soon as the vehicle lost it's last HP is was destroyed, this is what triggers SfD, not what becomes of the corpse.
I think Red is correct. I never liked vehicles anyways. But the idea of a shadowseer in a scatbike blob squad is pretty nice. Only downside is the low mobility of the shadowseer. Could be problematic on turns 3+, but I suppose if you have 3 turns of 2 large completely untouched scatter laser squads, that's probably a bigger issue for your opponent than it is for your moderately lower mobility. And if you keep him cheap, that's only 60 points for hit and run and guaranteed veil. Though, the I think another 25 for an extra WC (and a shot at invis, etc) is very worth it. Dang it I need another shadowseer
luke1705 wrote: I think Red is correct. I never liked vehicles anyways. But the idea of a shadowseer in a scatbike blob squad is pretty nice. Only downside is the low mobility of the shadowseer. Could be problematic on turns 3+, but I suppose if you have 3 turns of 2 large completely untouched scatter laser squads, that's probably a bigger issue for your opponent than it is for your moderately lower mobility. And if you keep him cheap, that's only 60 points for hit and run and guaranteed veil. Though, the I think another 25 for an extra WC (and a shot at invis, etc) is very worth it. Dang it I need another shadowseer
I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
Kaughnor wrote: I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
I'd be inclined to say no as those units would explicitly state which artefact lists they can use in their own codex, which is supplemented by the the Ynnari list. That said, I can see why if they were fighting as a unified faction you could make the argument in favour of that idea.
I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
lambsandlions wrote: I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
About the Raider thing, when Deep striking you must place the raider in the table and roll for scatter, no pivot allowed after the dice is roll in order to avoid misshap. You can only pivot him on the shooting phase if moving flat out or in next turn.
Fragile wrote: Why would the Raider scatter? The WWP prevents it.
We are talking about using a raider instead of a WWP. The archon with a WWP is expensive and doesn't have the best weapon options. Plus raiders add a lot of mobility.
Kaughnor wrote: I just picked up book today. On the new artfacts the book states you can take Ynnari artfacts rather than from CE, DA and H codex's. The last sentence says you can take items from any/all of these lists in the same detachment.
Does that mean I can take Harliquin or Dark Eldar artifacts on my Farseer if I select him as part of a reborn warhost detachment?
It also specifically states that units can only take options stated on their dataslate entry, so Farseers have no option for taking Artefacts of Cruelty or Relics of the Black Library.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lambsandlions wrote: I have been thinking a lot about d-scythe wraiths with a webway portal. But wouldn't a raider be the better option? An archon with a wwp is at least 95 pts and offers no scatter which is good, but when placing your wraiths down not all of them will be able to shoot. With templates you can not shoot through friendly models so the wraiths in the center or back of your deep strike cluster will not be able to shoot. With a raider you are only paying 55 points and you can scatter, but 1/3 of the time you will not. Then the 2/3s that you do scatter you can disembark 6" from where you scatter before shooting. If I am not mistaken you can also pivot the raider (because it is a long model) before disembarking to add about 3", meaning as long as you dont scatter more than 9" you should be fine. The raider also has the advantage of being able to move 12" to your next target and the flames coming from the same point on the hull helps too.
I thought you couldn't disembark after deep striking a Raider? Also, if you move 12" then the D-Scythes inside wont be able to fire as you can't snap shoot a template.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
SfD has to work differently I think.
Assume we have an Archon with a unit of Wyches. The Archon and only the Archon is killed. Does SfD activate? The Archon is no longer part of the Wych unit and thus doesn't count as part of it. He's a dead IC, so SfD should pop.
As a more extreme example, take the same composition but assume all the Wyches were killed and the Archon lives. Are we somehow saying the IC alone keeps the Wych unit from being considered 'destroyed'? Even the IC rule doesn't support that since the Wyches are no longer there for him to count as part of it.
Just one of my Ideas:
1 single Warlock taking sanctic spells...
+(A)
2 units of 10 Scatbikes
or
+(B)
1 Closecombat Knight and 9 Dark Eldar bikes+Autarch
get First Turn, Blow the Warlock in the Psychic Phase with ~6 Dice up ("Sanctic" perils on any doubles) and get 2 shooting Phases with those Bikes or 24" move+charge with a CC-Knight and a big unit of "Impact Hit Bikes"
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
SfD has to work differently I think.
Assume we have an Archon with a unit of Wyches. The Archon and only the Archon is killed. Does SfD activate? The Archon is no longer part of the Wych unit and thus doesn't count as part of it. He's a dead IC, so SfD should pop.
As a more extreme example, take the same composition but assume all the Wyches were killed and the Archon lives. Are we somehow saying the IC alone keeps the Wych unit from being considered 'destroyed'? Even the IC rule doesn't support that since the Wyches are no longer there for him to count as part of it.
Its possible I'm reading it wrong, in that being an Independent Character joined to a unit wouldn't negate the quality of being a unit as well - that is, an IC can be both a unit and be considered a part of another unit. This does seem at least somewhat plausible.
If so, then my point is incorrect. If not, there remains another issue:
The other issue is one of timing. SfD triggers whenever "a unit is completely destroyed." When an Archon is killed while attached to a unit of wyches and the IC is considered ONLY a part of the unit for the purposes of SfD while it is attached, the Archon would not be a separate unit at the time the SfD trigger occurs, but only AFTER the model is killed (and is thus no longer attached to the squad). I believe the same would apply to when the Wych squad is killed and the Archon remains - the Archon is considered part of the Wych unit at the time of the Wych unit's destruction, and so the potential trigger occurs before the units are separated.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
That rule it's about how a normal unit plus attached IC should behave nothing else.
Read purge the Alien Victory conditions, they do not make an exception of the rule it REMINDS you that IC and Transport are individual Vehicles (as they own their individual Datasheet on your army list) SfD it's triggered everytime one of those Individual Datasheet units are Destroyed iand a unit of 3-4 Ic are still 3-4 different units but Grouped together.
NG77 wrote: What happens if you kill a unit with a few ICs with one round of shooting. Do you count as having destroyed one unit or multiple?
Multiple, everytime you remove an IC model from table it counts as a unit slain for victory points as example. So if you kill in a single round a 3-4 IC models unit it will count as a 3-4 units slain at the end.
That would be an exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself.
Independent Characters:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rule purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
That gives us a default blanket answer to the question "Does an IC count as part of the unit?" That answer is "No."
For a rule to work differently, you'd need an exception within that rule. I don't recall such an exception in SfD.
Victory Points do provide that exception, and so are treated as a separate unit for Victory Point purposes.
That rule it's about how a normal unit plus attached IC should behave nothing else.
Read purge the Alien Victory conditions, they do not make an exception of the rule it REMINDS you that IC and Transport are individual Vehicles (as they own their individual Datasheet on your army list) SfD it's triggered everytime one of those Individual Datasheet units are Destroyed iand a unit of 3-4 Ic are still 3-4 different units but Grouped together.
I addressed this tangentially in my first response, but I might as well clarify for this aspect.
The qualify of being considered part of a unit relies on the state of being attached to that unit. After an IC's destruction, it is no longer a attached to the unit. The triggering point for Purge the Alien's Primary Objection is "[a]t the end of the game," and so the IC would be treated as a separate unit per my quoted IC rules, while the triggering condition for SfD is differently timed.
Badger wrote: Just one of my Ideas:
1 single Warlock taking sanctic spells...
+(A)
2 units of 10 Scatbikes
or
+(B)
1 Closecombat Knight and 9 Dark Eldar bikes+Autarch
get First Turn, Blow the Warlock in the Psychic Phase with ~6 Dice up ("Sanctic" perils on any doubles) and get 2 shooting Phases with those Bikes or 24" move+charge with a CC-Knight and a big unit of "Impact Hit Bikes"
There's no guarantee you'll kill the warlock with a single peril.
His/her death would trigger SftD, allowing your scatt bike to shoot once, but I don't think they would be allowed to shoot again in the shooting phase.
Units that move 12" could however use that to move an additional 12", putting them in range for a T1 charge.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
Yeah I think the distinction here is "destroyed" vs "becomes a wreck". The vehicle is:
1) destroyed
2) passengers disembark
3) the vehicle becomes a non-functional wreck
In classic GW rules-writing, I can see how it's murky, but at the very least it's murky enough that I wouldn't suppose to benefit from SfD until such a time that it's FAQ'd to work on wrecked vehicles. Not only does it feel like exploiting a loophole at best, but the loophole isn't clear enough for me to feel like I'm not playing for an unfair advantage in that situation.
Worth an FAQ? Absolutely. But until such a time as it is FAQ'd, I personally won't be playing it because it's unclear and unintended IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
I am citing rules, I'm just paraphrasing for clarity.
Yes, you are correct: the passengers must be removed from the vehicle when it is destroyed, but that is part of the process of the vehicle being 'destroyed.' It's destruction isn't complete until after the passengers have exited, taken any required Pinning tests, and the model has been removed (if necessary). Only once the vehicle's destruction is complete can we check for SfD.
If we begin to resolve SfD halfway through the resolution of a casualty (the vehicle being destroyed) then we run into some situations that don't make sense. (Specifically, units like Superheavy Vehicles or C'Tan being killed by a unit, and that unit then moving out of the blast radius before they die.)
Red Corsair wrote: If I soot 40 scatter laser shots at your unit you roll all the saves from the one wound pool meaning the unit will basically die simultaneously, the rules tell you how to distribute the wounds (closest first) but they don't tell you the timing. The transport thing is painfully obvious at this point. Riders in transports are effectively in pseudo reserve, they aren't treated as being on the table while embarked, since you place them after resolving the vehicles destruction they were never there for the purposes of triggering a SfD in the first place.
I disagree. After the vehicle is removed, any unit within range of its location is a viable target for activating SfD. Since the unit inside will have been placed by that point, they are legal targets. SfD doesn't activate (including choosing targets) until after the casualty has resolved. And the casualty isn't resolved until after any passengers have been placed.
Your not citing rules anymore. SfD says nothing about casualties. It simply says measure range when a unit is destroyed. The tank is destroyed well before you start measuring from it's hull to place models. It's very linear, in order to trigger the unit to emergency disembark the transport must have been destroyed first, since passengers are not considered on the table top until they are deployed it isn't possible for them to have been there during the vehicles destruction.
I am citing rules, I'm just paraphrasing for clarity.
Yes, you are correct: the passengers must be removed from the vehicle when it is destroyed, but that is part of the process of the vehicle being 'destroyed.' It's destruction isn't complete until after the passengers have exited, taken any required Pinning tests, and the model has been removed (if necessary). Only once the vehicle's destruction is complete can we check for SfD.
If we begin to resolve SfD halfway through the resolution of a casualty (the vehicle being destroyed) then we run into some situations that don't make sense. (Specifically, units like Superheavy Vehicles or C'Tan being killed by a unit, and that unit then moving out of the blast radius before they die.)
This is the part where your not actually proving your claim with the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it tell us the vehicle isn't destroyed until the model is removed, that's the part your making up. What we are told is that once a vehicle loses it's last HP it is destroyed and THEN the occupants follow the rules for emergency disembarkation.
The second part isn't an actual problem. You resolve the wreck entirely, never did I state that you would for some reason interrupt that process, I can tell your an avid magic player BTW, so am I. But in this case it's the strange fact that GW has ruled that occupants are not considered to be on the table while in transports, it's why area of effect rules don't project from the hull. THAT is why SfD doesn't affect the unit inside. They are not there when the vehicle is destroyed, they show up after resolution.
Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
chriachrias wrote: Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
With those troops just go Ynnari, you pretty much would only lost the Battle focus of Farseers, and gain the whole advantage of SfD, also worth to notice you can field a Ynnari detachment without any of the new characters if wish as long you use the Reborn Warhost.
anybody have any ideas on what i can combine with a few wraithcannon wraithguard and archon+webway portal to make it more survivable in the face of strong interceptor fire. Regular opponent is tau, and things like the shadowseer casting its conceal type power would not help me on the initial drop.
chriachrias wrote:Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
I don't think you can use the Skathach in the Ynarri detachment, so if that was really your hope I believe you'll have to stick with CAD.
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:anybody have any ideas on what i can combine with a few wraithcannon wraithguard and archon+webway portal to make it more survivable in the face of strong interceptor fire. Regular opponent is tau, and things like the shadowseer casting its conceal type power would not help me on the initial drop.
I'd recommend putting attached IC's at the front of the unit so that when they die from overwatch you'll get to shoot anyways before another unit can intercept.
I'd recommend putting attached IC's at the front of the unit so that when they die from overwatch you'll get to shoot anyways before another unit can intercept.
I thought someone just mentioned that IC's are considered part of the group once they join? They are not individual groups by themselves?
chriachrias wrote:Not to interrupt the good ole rules lawyering that is 40k, but I haven't played since 5th and recently just got ~1k points on clowns and a skathach Wraithknight. Was planning to add a farseers and 2 squads of scatbikes for 1850. Do you see that type of list working better in Ynarri taking a few of the new characters, or sticking with craftworld + allies?
I don't think you can use the Skathach in the Ynarri detachment, so if that was really your hope I believe you'll have to stick with CAD.
But you could take one as part of a Wraith Host formation since Doom of Mymeara gives you specific permission to do so.
I'd recommend putting attached IC's at the front of the unit so that when they die from overwatch you'll get to shoot anyways before another unit can intercept.
I thought someone just mentioned that IC's are considered part of the group once they join? They are not individual groups by themselves?
One person did say that, but I disagree with that assessment. IC's still count as units in their own right for kill points even when they are attached to another unit and that's what this is, testing if a unit was destroyed. The bigger debate is about passengers benefiting from their transport getting destroyed and I'm of the mindset that the passengers would not get to use SfD.
I dont have the rulebook on hand to debate that argument, but I do know if you get a penetrating hit they have to disembark right? So when does the disembarking happen? As soon as there's a pen? Or after you roll on the damage results table?
There is no disembark just for suffering a penetrating hit. Passengers do have to take a leadership test to see if they snapshoot if that's what you're thinking of.
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: anybody have any ideas on what i can combine with a few wraithcannon wraithguard and archon+webway portal to make it more survivable in the face of strong interceptor fire. Regular opponent is tau, and things like the shadowseer casting its conceal type power would not help me on the initial drop.
You could add the unique Death Jester from Death Masque and gain shrouding plus any additional cover you would receive normally.
Interesting thought: Take a list with a shooting WK, 1 lone Warlock on bike & Yncarne.
Keep the Warlock within 7" of the WK and cast a Sanctic power, trying to Perils. If he dies, the WK gets to shoot for free in your Psychc phase, then again normally in your shooting. If the Warlock lives, you can turbo-boost him into the enemy's face, daring them to kill him so Yncarne can pop in using his Inevitable Death rule.
Even though I am currently only planning to use a USF and not actually the Ynnari, the though of a WK shooting twice is just ridiculously good.
Galef wrote: Interesting thought:
Take a list with a shooting WK, 1 lone Warlock on bike & Yncarne.
Keep the Warlock within 7" of the WK and cast a Sanctic power, trying to Perils. If he dies, the WK gets to shoot for free in your Psychc phase, then again normally in your shooting.
If the Warlock lives, you can turbo-boost him into the enemy's face, daring them to kill him so Yncarne can pop in using his Inevitable Death rule.
Even though I am currently only planning to use a USF and not actually the Ynnari, the though of a WK shooting twice is just ridiculously good.
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Didn't someone point out that SfD lets you shoot a second time if you've already shot but doing so the other way around wouldn't let you shoot a second time in the shooting phase? Not sure if that's intended or not.
Not sure, maybe they are referring to the Craftworld Path system.
Path of the Seer
Path of the Warrior
Path of Command
Path of the Outcast
Path of the Smith (can't remember the proper name for this one, basically the builds/engineers/artisans)
Path of XXXX?
I can't remember how many Craftworld paths have been mentioned in the fluff so I could well be barking up the wrong tree here.
Not sure, maybe they are referring to the Craftworld Path system.
Path of the Seer
Path of the Warrior
Path of Command
Path of the Outcast
Path of the Smith (can't remember the proper name for this one, basically the builds/engineers/artisans)
Path of XXXX?
I can't remember how many Craftworld paths have been mentioned in the fluff so I could well be barking up the wrong tree here.
Pretty sure you're over thinking it here. I think Paths just means choices. Like do we follow path one? Or path two? Which one leads to the better outcome?
Galef wrote: Interesting thought:
Take a list with a shooting WK, 1 lone Warlock on bike & Yncarne.
Keep the Warlock within 7" of the WK and cast a Sanctic power, trying to Perils. If he dies, the WK gets to shoot for free in your Psychc phase, then again normally in your shooting.
If the Warlock lives, you can turbo-boost him into the enemy's face, daring them to kill him so Yncarne can pop in using his Inevitable Death rule.
Even though I am currently only planning to use a USF and not actually the Ynnari, the though of a WK shooting twice is just ridiculously good.
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Didn't someone point out that SfD lets you shoot a second time if you've already shot but doing so the other way around wouldn't let you shoot a second time in the shooting phase? Not sure if that's intended or not.
I'm not sure where they're getting that from. The rule just says "The unit may shoot as if it were your shooting phase."
Is there some precedence for units not being allowed to shoot if they've already shot that turn? I know Interceptor, but I thought that the Interceptor rule specifically states "if you use Interceptor you can't shoot on your next shooting phase with this gun". That's what allows you to do the trick where you man an ADL's Quad-gun with a Vindicare Assassin, where he can use the Quad Gun with Interceptor, get his BS9000 and Ignores Cover, and then he still gets to shoot his Exitus Rifle the next turn because Interceptor just turns off the Quad Gun.
I'm not sure yet as I haven't gone back and looked at the rule to see whether there is a restriction on it or not. There is the restriction that a model can only fire one weapon but I don't know if that specifies per turn or per phase.
I believe I was going off the Shooting Sequence (been a few days). In order to shoot in the shooting phase, the first step is to nominate a unit to shoot that ''has yet to do so this turn''. If you had already shot using SfD in the Psychic phase, you wouldn't be eligible to shoot in the shooting phase off that wording.
Goobi2 wrote: I believe I was going off the Shooting Sequence (been a few days). In order to shoot in the shooting phase, the first step is to nominate a unit to shoot that ''has yet to do so this turn''. If you had already shot using SfD in the Psychic phase, you wouldn't be eligible to shoot in the shooting phase off that wording.
Ahhhh, you'd be right. But then, wouldn't SFD shooting only ever work in the enemy turn? You'd not be able to use it in your own turn.
-Shoot in shooting phase, kill a unit
-Ok now I get to shoot as if it's my shooting phase
-wait, the rules say "a unit that hasn't done so" so I can't shoot.
Goobi2 wrote: I believe I was going off the Shooting Sequence (been a few days). In order to shoot in the shooting phase, the first step is to nominate a unit to shoot that ''has yet to do so this turn''. If you had already shot using SfD in the Psychic phase, you wouldn't be eligible to shoot in the shooting phase off that wording.
Ahhhh, you'd be right. But then, wouldn't SFD shooting only ever work in the enemy turn? You'd not be able to use it in your own turn.
-Shoot in shooting phase, kill a unit
-Ok now I get to shoot as if it's my shooting phase
-wait, the rules say "a unit that hasn't done so" so I can't shoot.
This is obviously a case where SfD is meant to overwrite the rules because of how this works, but people want to take the rules literally.
I think you guys are right. SfD allows a unit to shoot again if they have already done so, but the Shooting phase does not.
So no using sacrificial Warlocks to get extra shooting in your turn.
Still worth it to put Scatterbikes near your WKs. If the opponent kills them in their turn, the WK gets to retaliate.
Goobi2 wrote: Well, SfD would let you fire a second time if it was used second, because it specifically says it can even it already has done so.
If SfD is second, you can fire twice. If it is first, just the once.
Oh, youre right. Derpaderp, I was looking at the bullet points in the SFD rule and forgot the last line of the main rule where it says they can do it even though they already had in the turn.
Yep, carry on, that is indeed how it works. "Sadly" suicide warlocks can't explode themselves to double-tap wraithcannons. I'll shed a single sad clown tear for everyone who wanted to do that.
Tamwulf wrote: Codex rules have always trumped the rule book. I'd say you can shoot twice in your turn.
But in this case the Codex rule doesn't say anything about a unit that Soulbursts prior to their shooting phase. It only allows a unit to perform X action even if it has done so already this turn. The Shooting phase still requires models to have not already shot "this turn". It is had noted "this phase" there would be no issue, but it says turn.
Tamwulf wrote: Codex rules have always trumped the rule book. I'd say you can shoot twice in your turn.
It says you can shoot *even if you already have*
that's different from saying you can shoot twice. There's nothing that says if you take a shooting action with Soulburst, you can shoot a second time in your shooting phase.
Yeah, I'm planning on getting small groups of units like dark reapers, scat bikes, vaul's wrath d-cannons, and a wraithknight in clumps to proc off of each other when something dies and offensively I'll probably run things like warp spiders to proc off enemy deaths.
What do you think of 3" single model khymerae squads as an Yncarne delivery system? Think they'd even bother shooting them? id use them like warhammer chaff units to clunk up his movement if not.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: What do you think of 3" single model khymerae squads as an Yncarne delivery system? Think they'd even bother shooting them? id use them like warhammer chaff units to clunk up his movement if not.
The idea is sound, but I really don't like the small unit. You want them to still be effective, and thus a viable threat for the enemy to want to shoot at. I would either take 3-elf Reaver units with Caltops to turbo boost near them, or 2-3 Khymerae in each unit. Another reason not to have such small units is that you want the enemy to spend more than 1 unit's worth of shooting. What would be the point if it only took 1 unit to kill the single Khymerae, the Yncarne shows up, and the rest of the enemy's shooting takes him down?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: What do you think of 3" single model khymerae squads as an Yncarne delivery system? Think they'd even bother shooting them? id use them like warhammer chaff units to clunk up his movement if not.
considering that yncarne can show up when your opponents units die I think it is a better plan to just kill one of the opponents unites where you want him to show up. I think he will be best used as a counter assault unit. If your opponent ever kills one of your units in assault you pop him down ready to wipe that unit on your turn. Also if you blow up a transport he can be there waiting to charge the passengers.
I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
Thoughts on whether Yncarne can charge on your player turn the same game turn he is summoned from reserve?
The rule reads "may not charge in a turn in which it uses this ability". The BRB reads, whenever the word 'turn' specifically means player turn unless game turn is mentioned. If this is the case, suicide units running towards the enemy makes them 'unkillable'. As the enemy would have a LoW in their face if they choose to shoot the suicide unit. The LoW would be able to charge on the next player turn (eg - the Aeldari's turn).
Obviously, the enemy could kill the suicide unit and THEN the 5W T6 3++, 5+ FNP model. As a lot of army can deal with that nowadays. Haha
The problem is he can't charge the turn he teleports. So, ideally, you want to teleport off the last thing your opponent kills. Tiny one man squads are bound to get the Yncarne to show up too early and shot right away. Though.... if that one man squad could get 2 full squads of solid shooting off it may work out. That said, with that sort of looming threat, the opponent would be less likely to shoot the sacrificial unit. You probably would be better off with a fast squad that you can charge with that should either die or finish off the enemy squad in their turn. Reavers can possibly do that.
Yeah, I really think Reavers are the best choice. They are cheap enough to be sacrificed, fast enough to get wherever you want in 1 turn, tough enough to potentially require several units to shoot at them, and versatile enough to actually do work if they don't get killed.
I could see a list with several units paired up. Turbo boost close to your target, when unit A dies, Yncarne comes in and unit B gets to Soulburst.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
Good point about locking enemy units down so they can't shoot. I'm afraid opponents will learn to pick their targets carefully enough to prevent that in the future though.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
Hm. Good point. That is a very solid usage, especially for harlequins who can just hit and run out if they have to to get the bonus assault attacks on your next turn.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
One of the difficulties of playing a CC-dedicated army (like Harlequins) is trying to not completely destroy your target on the first round of combat, because you are then left standing in the open where your high WS/I won't stop the incoming fire.
With SfD, you now want to wreck your target on the first turn, because you can soulburst to another combat, or get far into cover.
I'm thinking about running The Serpent's Brood formation as Ynnari - three troupes all with dedicated starweavers, if they Hit and Run or consolidate within 2" of their transport, they can hope back on. Put embraces on the players for D3 S6 HoW at I10, utterly crush the target, then either soulburst into the next target, or soulburst + consolidate to get back into your vehicle...
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
One of the difficulties of playing a CC-dedicated army (like Harlequins) is trying to not completely destroy your target on the first round of combat, because you are then left standing in the open where your high WS/I won't stop the incoming fire.
With SfD, you now want to wreck your target on the first turn, because you can soulburst to another combat, or get far into cover.
I'm thinking about running The Serpent's Brood formation as Ynnari - three troupes all with dedicated starweavers, if they Hit and Run or consolidate within 2" of their transport, they can hope back on. Put embraces on the players for D3 S6 HoW at I10, utterly crush the target, then either soulburst into the next target, or soulburst + consolidate to get back into your vehicle...
Just be careful with that, because if Initiative stays the same for that combat step, you'll charge in to that second unit, they'll get overwatch and then they'll get to swing since they likely have lower initiative than you.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
Why would it be I:1?
You're right. "Determine assault results" is done after the fight sub-phase, and keeping the current initiative step when using SftD only applies when it's triggered during the fight sub-phase.
So you can sweep advance a unit, then charge a second one and attack again. That's pretty neat.
lessthanjeff wrote: I have a hard time justifying the charge rules from SfD right now. Shooting seems to be a much stronger option since it's giving you an additional round of damage output without any damage coming in. The charging version just gets you into combat which doesn't allow for additional damage output and it puts you back into taking damage back.
I also want to make Reavers work for it, but I can't find anything I'm happy with especially since I can't turboboost them up, shoot something next to them, and proc charging a different unit.
In my game, I used charge to pretty good effect in the opponent's turn. It's good for interrupting shooting actions - your opponent wants to shoot 2 squads, but he can only shoot one and then the other charges straight into combat. You do get increased damage output (because you get to assault in your opponent's turn, then you can win/hit and run and charge on your turn as well).
On your turn, though? Definitely move x2 then charge or shoot x2 are the better options. Charge x2 is much more of an edge case, if you set it up correctly. Rarely can I see wanting to tank 2 units worth of cc attacks being worth it.
If you sweep-advance a unit in your turn, then you might want to assault another unit, to be protected from incoming fire and prevent an enemy unit from shooting. It would be at the end of Initiative step 1, so no one would get to attack during that turn.
I believe Harlequins could make use of that.
Why would it be I:1?
You're right. "Determine assault results" is done after the fight sub-phase, and keeping the current initiative step when using SftD only applies when it's triggered during the fight sub-phase.
So you can sweep advance a unit, then charge a second one and attack again. That's pretty neat.
I dont think you get to attack again. You fight again, but you already made the attacks for that initiative step.
They charge a single space marine, and the troupe master kills the SM at I7, they then use the soulburst to charge another squad of space marines, the harlequins still get to attack at I6, but since the troupe master already attacked at I7, its now the I6 step?
Yeah I think it's actually kind of bad for us. You charge the second unit, but only the lower initiatives will get to attack which is usually the opponent and not us. Also makes the Reavers harder for me to justify because it will waste their Hammer of Wrath Hits which is what they count on.
lessthanjeff wrote: Yeah I think it's actually kind of bad for us. You charge the second unit, but only the lower initiatives will get to attack which is usually the opponent and not us. Also makes the Reavers harder for me to justify because it will waste their Hammer of Wrath Hits which is what they count on.
Pretty much. Which means we want a shooty army with one or two big melee hitters. But I also have a feeling it wasn't intended to be this way and that it would start the fight sub part over again so they can swing again, which is why it's limited to once per turn per unit.
That's why I'm thinking I'll have warp spiders and swooping hawks as my forward units near the opponent for SfD. I'd love to use the reavers, but even when they're successful they have to take multiple overwatches and survive the melee attacks from potentially two different units.
So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).
So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.
Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.
I do like your arguments for the war walker. I've also been planning on fielding some Vypers because two shuriken cannons with precision placement will do nice for grabbing objectives and sniping models while hiding out of LOS while only costing 55 points.
If you take the formation the war walkers do get to keep Battle Focus but then they won't get to benefit from SfD.
the_scotsman wrote: Warwalkers don't get to run before shooting because you lose Battle Focus.
Nope, they are their own detachment from CWE. They keep their battle focus as long as they are in that Ulthwe Strike Force. Outside of that, they lose battle focus
If you take them as an Ulthwe Strike Force outside of an Ynnari detachement they have Battle Focus but no SfD.
If you take them in an Ynnari detachement they lose Battle Focus but gain SfD.
It clearly states that all units taken in an Ynnari detachement lose Battle Focus.
So I think I am rethinking my earlier comment about Khymera. Since they are so cheap, maybe units of 3-5 could be a good addition to a Ynnari Faction.
They could provide assault protection for some units by just hanging out within 7" and being a speed-bump that gives you shooting units the ability to shoot immediately at the units that just assaulted the Khymera. (looking at GSCMSU here)
Or as mentioned, they can rush forward to get Yncarne where he needs to be.
is it bad that im thinking of some pretty broken combos? I think the ynnari can make their extra action if their enemy is completely destroyed. allies of convenience counts as enemies so you could go for some hyper msu builds and constantly fire and move twice if we use the large ynnari detachment. Im fairly new to eldar as a whole so sorry for my lack of terms and knowledge. I always wanted to get into eldar.
-v10mega wrote: is it bad that im thinking of some pretty broken combos? I think the ynnari can make their extra action if their enemy is completely destroyed. allies of convenience counts as enemies so you could go for some hyper msu builds and constantly fire and move twice if we use the large ynnari detachment. Im fairly new to eldar as a whole so sorry for my lack of terms and knowledge. I always wanted to get into eldar.
It's not bad if you have a competitive community! Just let us know what you come up with.
Their extra action can come from the death of any unit, friend or foe. So, draw your units from mostly Ynnari and more of your MSU will be able to take advantage of the rule.
Welcome to Eldar, an army with fluidity and force. And as good a time to jump in as any!
Galef wrote: So I think I am rethinking my earlier comment about Khymera. Since they are so cheap, maybe units of 3-5 could be a good addition to a Ynnari Faction.
They could provide assault protection for some units by just hanging out within 7" and being a speed-bump that gives you shooting units the ability to shoot immediately at the units that just assaulted the Khymera. (looking at GSCMSU here)
Or as mentioned, they can rush forward to get Yncarne where he needs to be.
I really like the Khymera squads (looking at 2-3 solo squads for my list) for much the same reason that I like a lot of the hyper cheap and efficient tyranid units. (Spore mines, lictors, etc). Literally all of the time, your opponent is going to spend a lot more points killing it than it's worth.
Your point for not liking them was that they're too easy to kill. You're not wrong, but that works to our advantage. At worst, that's a 10 point squad that gave my opponent a kill point, but allowed me to fire my squad of scatter lasers in his turn. Would you trade a kill point to let your scatter lasers fire in the opponent's turn? I know I'm down.
And if you don't want the khymera killed early on, keep them in reserves. There are worse things than a 10 point objective squatter who can hide out of LOS rather easily.
Shame that GW noted in the BRB that allies (desperate, come the apocalypse, etc) can't be targeted in psychic/shooting/assault :( Was looking at some cool slingshot detachments.
On that note, since it's the "targeting" that is the issue, are there creative ways around that that could reliably give us cheap and effective soul bursts (especially since we get 2 every time a unit dies if our detachments have enough units)
Examples I can think of that don't "target" things and thus could kill "friendly" units:
Mawloc's Terror From the Deep
Any beam powers (Necron Pylons....that Tzeentch beam....I can't think of other ones)
Generally speaking, anything that counters invisibility in the psychic/shooting phase would do the trick (except for novas I think)
What else am I missing? If we can find something that can do this trick reliably, there are a lot of cheap detachments that could provide us with 2-3 guaranteed soul bursts on turn 1, essentially meaning the whole army would shoot twice, or stabby WK gets a 24" move + charge, etc.
I'll be taking a different approach and try utlizing Ynnari to make my footslogging Dark Eldar more competitive. Now that I can easily attach Shadowseers to Wych units, I plan on advancing them behind beast packs and using soulburst for extra movement, rather than any shooting.
I'll also be hoping I can pick my Farseer powers, that seems too good.
I haven't determined whether I want Ycarne or a Wraithknight, I'll have to mess around with each of them. The idea of Ycarne showing up in the middle of my Beast/Wych blob and giving everything Fearless and Feel no Pain seems very useful.
So, am I correct in saying that the Yncarne cannot generate Sanctic powers even though they're listed as one of his choices because he's a Daemon? Sanctuary would be great to have.
nintura wrote: Codex > BRB. If their intention was to give him Sanctic, then he should have them. Or does the book just say it gives him Daemonology by default?
Yes, normally Codex > BRB, and the fracture of Biel-Tan book, as well as the dataslate in the assembly instructions, say the Yncarne can generate powers from Daemonology(Sanctic). It's just that usually, there would be a note saying "The Yncarne can generate from Sanctic, even though it's usually not possible for daemons".
I think the rule writers overlooked that as a daemon, he would normally be prevented from using Sanctic, and therefore forgot to add a note.
In any case, I'm not sure Sanctic powers are that good for him anyway. He can't join units, so Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand are pretty much useless. With perils on any double, I don't think it's worth it compared to Revenant.
nintura wrote: Codex > BRB. If their intention was to give him Sanctic, then he should have them. Or does the book just say it gives him Daemonology by default?
Yes, normally Codex > BRB, and the fracture of Biel-Tan book, as well as the dataslate in the assembly instructions, say the Yncarne can generate powers from Daemonology(Sanctic). It's just that usually, there would be a note saying "The Yncarne can generate from Sanctic, even though it's usually not possible for daemons".
I think the rule writers overlooked that as a daemon, he would normally be prevented from using Sanctic, and therefore forgot to add a note.
In any case, I'm not sure Sanctic powers are that good for him anyway. He can't join units, so Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand are pretty much useless. With perils on any double, I don't think it's worth it compared to Revenant.
On the other hand Sanctuary would be very useful, giving him a 4++ and being an MC he auto passes Dangerous Terrain checks so he cant hurt himself that way, and Cleansing Flame is always a good power to have, especially if you pop up right in the middle of your opponents army. I think it's disappointing that his other choice is Revenant, becuase on paper it looks like a rather underwhelming discipline.
What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes
-v10mega wrote: What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes
I think you're seriously underestimating the firepower of Warp Spiders and Scatbikes. But the Wraithknight, Beastpacks, Hellions and the Solitair all move 12" per turn and Swooping Hawks move 18" per turn.
-v10mega wrote: What is the fastest unit in the ynnari line that isnt in a vehicle or jetbike? i ask this because if you spam those units alongside some allies of convenience then you could have some killer combos. Im trying to make a list where you have the Gladius strike force or lions blade or castellans and mix them with ynnari.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im thinking warp spiders? propblem is that they dont deliver that much of a punch and neither does scatbikes
I think you're seriously underestimating the firepower of Warp Spiders and Scatbikes. But the Wraithknight, Beastpacks, Hellions and the Solitair all move 12" per turn and Swooping Hawks move 18" per turn.
Pretty much this. 5 Spiders gets you 10 S:6 shots, let alone when you burst them.
IM not underestimating them (sorry if it came out that way) but i think they just die from what ive seen and to be fair i havent seen a lot. my idea is to have as many ynnari units as possible, they need to be cheap and shoot/assualt really well. i think im going with the swooping hawks. what else do you think could be added to that list?
BRB says Daemons cannot generate powers from Sanctic, however Yncarne's rules specifically say "Yncaren generates powers for the Santic Daemonology or Revenant disciplines"
That's pretty clear permission. Sadly, he isn't a GK and without their Purity of Soul rule, he will still perils on any double.
Add to the fact that the primaris is only effective against other Daemons and several of the powers are useless for a single model like him, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth the risk to try to get Cleansing Flame or Sanctuary?
I don't think it is. Revenant is better for him, even if it isn't a stellar discipline.
From my two games I've played, I've exclusively taken off revenant, and from what I understand, it has a few awesome powers and a few useless ones.
The best ones are -
words of the phoenix, Ancestors grace, storm of whispers (this one also has the coolest name) and gaze of ynead, although unbind souls is also pretty useful, everything else is crap though.
the main issue I find with the disipline is that all the good powers are warpcharge 2-3, and the primaris is really not good.
Santic isn't really good for the yncarne, and it really benefits form psychic shooting.
I'm kind of liking the look of the Revenant discipline myself, but I'm also planning on running Farseers so I'll have the option to drop some of those spells down to WC 1. I agree that they do seem kind of pricey for other psykers to cast them.
lambsandlions wrote: So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).
So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.
Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.
I'm not sure if I follow this one. I thought that vehicles couldn't soulburst.
lambsandlions wrote: So I want to make a case for black guardian warwalkers over black guardian jetbikes. The warwalkers get to run before shooting, which means if you deepstrike them in 9" and run with within 7" allowing you to soulburst and shoot again. It makes for a more powerful alphastrike. The warwalkers have similar point costs to scatterlaser ratios, Jetbikes are 30pt per scatterlaser and warwalkers are 32.5pts per. Warwalkers are less of an investment at 65 pts for 1 verses 90 pts for 3 jetbikes (two scatterlasers do 3.5 hp of damage to AV 10 rear armor).
So the warwalkers are better purely for alpha strike potential, as they should be able to shoot twice the turn they drop where jetbikes will never be able to shoot twice. They are cheaper meaning you can get your 4 units in for 260pts rather than 360pts. They also make better sacrificial units if you want your Yncarne to be in the opponents face on your turn 2.
Jetbikes are better is all other respects as they will do more the longer they live and their mobility is unmatched. However, if you don't think they will live long after deep strike, then the walkers are worth a look.
I'm not sure if I follow this one. I thought that vehicles couldn't soulburst.
They cant but they do give you some good heavy hitting power.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm kind of liking the look of the Revenant discipline myself, but I'm also planning on running Farseers so I'll have the option to drop some of those spells down to WC 1. I agree that they do seem kind of pricey for other psykers to cast them.
I feel like the revenant discipline is a waste on farseers, when they have the stone its better.. but runes of fate is so good.
I've gotten the pick your power warlord trait on my farseer, and took breathe of the phoneix, gate of infinity, and Gaze of Ynead, and I wish I hate taken some off runes, because breathe of the phoneix would be a lot better if you could shoot in the psychic and shooting phase, its nice for mobility though.
What do you guys think about two large units of reapers with shadow seers for viel of tears. Then some smaller units like warwalkers that can also do damage from range. If they kill the cheap warwalkers you can soulburst and shoot again. Might even be worth suicide warlocks. Three round of shooting in the first turn would be pretty devastating.
lambsandlions wrote: What do you guys think about two large units of reapers with shadow seers for viel of tears. Then some smaller units like warwalkers that can also do damage from range. If they kill the cheap warwalkers you can soulburst and shoot again. Might even be worth suicide warlocks. Three round of shooting in the first turn would be pretty devastating.
Reapers aren't bad but they're just outclassed by a lot of other units that shoot better and more efficiently. Their mobility does mesh with the shadowseer better than shadowseer + bikes, but bikes are just stupid efficient.
I think war walkers are going to make a big comeback, specifically in the Strike Force
Just throwing my 2p into the Black Guardian unit debate, I think you guys are slightly missing the single biggest upside to these formations with your debating about Bikes vs War Walker efficiency.
As far as the Reborn Warhost goes:
You can (and most likely will) take Scat Bikes in troops or as a Windrider Host already as they are cheaper, so taking them in the Elites option doesn't make sense.
However, by moving Black Guardian War Walkers and Vypers into Elites, you can still get them into an army without using up valuable FA slots (DE Transports for your Aspect Hosts) or HS slots, all without having to take the Guardian Battle or Storm host formations, or if you really want, take them in both.
As for the Ulthwe Strike Force:
Again the T1 reserve roll is nice, but Vypers and Warwalkers without the Guardian Formation Tax or using up FA and HS slots that could be better put to use by other units. Plus you can still throw in a Deepstriking unit of Black Guardians to Shuriken the crap outta something if you want as well.
Would spore mines count as non-vehicle units that die when they blow up? Could you take a handful of them as an ally just to drop them, have them blow up and trigger SfD?
My Aeldari opponent specifically asked me to play Dark Eldar and specifically asked me to play his Echoes of War mission.
He used the Triumvarate as the mission required.
He was to be tabled and so conceded turn three.
The Avatar of Ynead (whatevs) is the best of the three models in it. As an opponent I found that simply focusing in on the Avatar alone and nothing else basically stopped most of the shenanigans and then i just picked the most isolated targets i could to avoid any real damage happening to me in response. I multicharged in order to slow down my rate of killing which helped also. Shooting uunits are far more dangerous than assault ones because assault ones that get triggred might not even get to attack that round given the way the initiative count goes for Aeldari.
So overall my impression was that getting that Avatar dead was key number one and I just pounded it in melee until it died and then the Bomber came in and wiped his deathstar pretty handily and that was it. His return shots at my bomber were inconsequential of course.
As an opponent, looking back on the game, there were basically two things i didnt like about the mission. The deployment zone was MEANT I think to sucker enemies closer in, so you could beat them to a pulp with the Triumvarate and they are really scary at mele. the second thing about it was that the Dark Eldar get to go first. This ALSO struck me as an attempt to get the foolhardy to charg into the deathball of the Aeldari.
I think that turtling with all his units would have been smarter for him in that mission. The triuvarate is pretty much where its at and the victory condition was simple: kill the Triumvarate entirely or lose. So there was no need for him to spread out or worry about objectives. He chose to spread out a bit which allowed my beastpack to target his Farseer and anti-air Reapers without other units being close enough to do shenanigans. So there were a couple things he could have done differently but in tyhe end it was such a white wash that it hardly mattered.
What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?
Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.
So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.
Galef wrote: What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?
Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.
So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.
Personally if you are going to deathstar it - it's the way to go. 10 WC will destroy anything - bring a farseer along to guide and just kiss stuff goodbye. Or you could go for Eldrad and roll on divination - get ignores cover - full BS overwatch (thats pretty stupid with soulburst if you think about it) and the 4++ invo is great for them too. In fact - I just convinced myself.
Archon WWP, Eldrad, as many WG as you think is necessary - I'd say 10.
Question - is eldrad allowed to roll on the ynnari warlord table? even though he has his own warlord trait?
No, any character that has a set WL trait cannot roll on any table.
Hmm, I'm not sure 10 WG would be needed, nor would it be wise to put so many points in 1 unit. 2x 5WG would probably be much better, each with a WWP Archon. I am digging the Farseer idea with them. It looks like multiple detachment will be needed since You'll need an Autarch too for Reserve control, so 3 HQs.
So do we now have all the elements needed for a successful null deploy list? Autarch for +1/-1 Reserves USF for units that can come in turn 1 to prevent being tabled. Yncarne can come in any time a unit is destroyed, to further hold the board presence until turn 2 WWP Archon in WG units that can shoot again if they drop and kill their first target
Am I missing anything? Any other units that would really make a null deploy army great?
Galef wrote: What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?
Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.
So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.
Personally if you are going to deathstar it - it's the way to go. 10 WC will destroy anything - bring a farseer along to guide and just kiss stuff goodbye. Or you could go for Eldrad and roll on divination - get ignores cover - full BS overwatch (thats pretty stupid with soulburst if you think about it) and the 4++ invo is great for them too. In fact - I just convinced myself.
Archon WWP, Eldrad, as many WG as you think is necessary - I'd say 10.
Question - is eldrad allowed to roll on the ynnari warlord table? even though he has his own warlord trait?
This is what I've been running the last week, and it's great fun -- 10 wraithguard with guns (as stated, flamers have overlap and range issues), with a WWP Archon and an Autarch for reserve reliability; a farseer (can't take Eldrad because he has a set trait, and I'm fishing hard to choose my psychic powers!). I then veer into sheer points wastage by adding three Phoenix Lords -- Baharroth for hit and run and a 4+ invuln tank; Jain Zar to nerf anything I charge by -5 WS and -5 I, as well as disarming whomever she challenges; and Maugan Ra to allow me to fire at two units per turn. This gives me a unit which will almost always soulburst, can fire at one unit while charging at another (thanks Maugan!), WANTS to be in hand to hand, and can freely get out of it to shoot again, soulburst again, and then charge (thanks Jain and Baharroth!). Yes, it's an 1100 point unit, but damn is it fun to play!
I'm actually liking what this has done for not so strong units, I'm currently playing around with an idea of an all fire avenger aspect host in wave serpents with a farseer in one unit, yvrain in another and a shadowseer with mask of secrets in the next then taking a couple of FA venoms with 5 banshees in each one joined by an archon with armour of misery and the visarch in the other, plenty of psychers means you can roll for the power that allows a unit to soulburst allowing your avengers to shoot in the psychic phase then again in the shooting phase stacking the LD debuffs and also the banshees just need to win CC causing a -6 to LD with the exarch and relic debuffs there's a high chance the enemy is running. I'm not a high competitive player but I love the synergy working here and I wanted to involve the triumvirate.
I addressed this tangentially in my first response, but I might as well clarify for this aspect.
The qualify of being considered part of a unit relies on the state of being attached to that unit. After an IC's destruction, it is no longer a attached to the unit. The triggering point for Purge the Alien's Primary Objection is "[a]t the end of the game," and so the IC would be treated as a separate unit per my quoted IC rules, while the triggering condition for SfD is differently timed.
I realize i am coming a little late to this discussion but I think this exact issue already has a FAQ that tells us how GW would rule on this. The KDKFAQ says that an independent character generates an additional Blood Tithe if it is a unit in its own right - which most IC are. I think we should take it that any IC that is still a unit it its own right (i.e. not in some formation which removes IC status and ties them to a unit) will trigger SfD in the same way.
Galef wrote: What are people's thoughts about double shooting Wraithguard?
Take a unit of WG and a Archon with WWP. Drop them with 7" of 2 targets they want to shoot at. They kill unit A, then immediately Soulburst to shoot unit B.
My feeling is that this would be difficult with D-scythes since you can only really point all the flamers in 1 direction without losing more than 1 flamer. So you'd drop in, kill the unit you set up to kill, but can only get 1-2 flamers on the second unit.
So regular Wratihcannon WG might be best in this situation. But is it worth the points? Or rather would it get it's points worth?
Might be a really good addition to a Reserve list with an Autarch (who could add a haywire grenade to the WG for good measure) and an USF. Even better, you could have Yncarne come in off of a destroyed unit prior to that so that he can charge in your turn.
my only issue with wraith cannons is that only having 5 shots means you will rarely kill a whole unit. But it would be great for taking out monstrous creatures and transports. The nice thing about killing a transport is you can soulburst to kill some of the guys inside.
Dscythes are more likely to kill a whole unit but less likely to be able to shoot at anything afterwards.
lambsandlions wrote: my only issue with wraith cannons is that only having 5 shots means you will rarely kill a whole unit. But it would be great for taking out monstrous creatures and transports. The nice thing about killing a transport is you can soulburst to kill some of the guys inside.
But with no-scatter Deep Strike, you can easily place them 7" from a large target like that (MC or vehicle) and 12" from any other target. Kill the large target unit, then Soulburst the second.
This could be a nightmare for a multi-Knight list. Imagine only 5-6 WG dropping in an taking out 2 Knights.
I think the important thing for this tactic is to have "back-up" units available if you do not kill the primary target on the drop.
Just be aware that if you do take Yvraine or the Visarch in a CWE, DE, or Harlequin detachment, they are for sure Battle Bros, since Yvraine & Visarch are still Faction: Ynnari.
So they won't be able to deploy in transports. Not a huge problem for Harlies since you can take the Spectre and/or a Shadowseer, but DE might have a issue.
I've been trying to fit in death jesters for their ability to control enemy placement a bit. Thought it would come in handy moving units around to get them in soulburst ranges and such, but I'm wondering how often they'll even kill a model to force the morale check. Seems like they don't even average a wound per turn against marines. I haven't used them much before, so have any of you guys found the ability consistent enough to justify including?
I'm finding most of my lists feature a unit of Shadow Weavers behind an Aegis with a comms relay and two WWP Archons. Wraith Guard and Fire Dragon precision deep striking and shooting twice seems silly.
Hawks and Spiders go well with this too.
I'm torn between Black Guardians or Dire Avengers in Raiders for some DS Shuriken fire.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm finding most of my lists feature a unit of Shadow Weavers behind an Aegis with a comms relay and two WWP Archons. Wraith Guard and Fire Dragon precision deep striking and shooting twice seems silly.
Hawks and Spiders go well with this too.
I'm torn between Black Guardians or Dire Avengers in Raiders for some DS Shuriken fire.
Not sure what your list is, but make sure that Aegis is in a CAD. The Reborn Host does not have access to Forts
As for the BGs or DAs, I'd go with DAs. BGs really want that Deepstrike no-scatter and they do not transfer that to a Raider.
DAs have a better armour & range. Well worth the extra 2ppm.
Now that is assuming I read your post correctly and that you are torn between either unit in a Raider.
If, however, you are debating DAs in a Raider or BGs by themselves using the Webway Assault, I'd go with the BGs. They are cheaper and only give 1 KP.
There's a revenant power that allows a unit to soulburst.
With bikes, it could mean a 12" move in the movement phase, then 12" again in the psychic phase, allowing T1 charges.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm finding most of my lists feature a unit of Shadow Weavers behind an Aegis with a comms relay and two WWP Archons. Wraith Guard and Fire Dragon precision deep striking and shooting twice seems silly.
Hawks and Spiders go well with this too.
I'm torn between Black Guardians or Dire Avengers in Raiders for some DS Shuriken fire.
Not sure what your list is, but make sure that Aegis is in a CAD. The Reborn Host does not have access to Forts
As for the BGs or DAs, I'd go with DAs. BGs really want that Deepstrike no-scatter and they do not transfer that to a Raider.
DAs have a better armour & range. Well worth the extra 2ppm.
Now that is assuming I read your post correctly and that you are torn between either unit in a Raider.
If, however, you are debating DAs in a Raider or BGs by themselves using the Webway Assault, I'd go with the BGs. They are cheaper and only give 1 KP.
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Oh no! Didn't notice the lack of fortification, damn. An Autarch works but takes up an HQ slot.
Yeah I meant DAs in a Raider but BGs on foot. If the DAs Raider has a shadow field and the BGs have a SC then the point difference is 75 for the same firepower. My concern is that the BGs are T3 5+ Sv models sitting in "please template me" formation whereas the DAs can be further away, have a 3+ jink transport and 4+ Sv. DAs seem like they will be more useful subsequent turns. I may have to try one of each.
fresus wrote: There's a revenant power that allows a unit to soulburst.
With bikes, it could mean a 12" move in the movement phase, then 12" again in the psychic phase, allowing T1 charges.
fresus wrote: There's a revenant power that allows a unit to soulburst.
With bikes, it could mean a 12" move in the movement phase, then 12" again in the psychic phase, allowing T1 charges.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm finding most of my lists feature a unit of Shadow Weavers behind an Aegis with a comms relay and two WWP Archons. Wraith Guard and Fire Dragon precision deep striking and shooting twice seems silly.
Hawks and Spiders go well with this too.
I'm torn between Black Guardians or Dire Avengers in Raiders for some DS Shuriken fire.
Not sure what your list is, but make sure that Aegis is in a CAD. The Reborn Host does not have access to Forts
As for the BGs or DAs, I'd go with DAs. BGs really want that Deepstrike no-scatter and they do not transfer that to a Raider.
DAs have a better armour & range. Well worth the extra 2ppm.
Now that is assuming I read your post correctly and that you are torn between either unit in a Raider.
If, however, you are debating DAs in a Raider or BGs by themselves using the Webway Assault, I'd go with the BGs. They are cheaper and only give 1 KP.
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Oh no! Didn't notice the lack of fortification, damn. An Autarch works but takes up an HQ slot.
Yeah I meant DAs in a Raider but BGs on foot. If the DAs Raider has a shadow field and the BGs have a SC then the point difference is 75 for the same firepower. My concern is that the BGs are T3 5+ Sv models sitting in "please template me" formation whereas the DAs can be further away, have a 3+ jink transport and 4+ Sv. DAs seem like they will be more useful subsequent turns. I may have to try one of each.
This is okay - if they wipe the unit it's a free soulburst action for the unit standing 7 inches away from them. Please shoot my 110 point gardians and not my Yncarne!
I think I'd rather use a DS alpha strike to take out an opponents anti MC weaponry and bring the Yncarne in on my turn to give out his fearless and FNP pain bubble. I'm not a fan of 110pt sacrificial lambs, maybe a 51pt GJB unit.
I think I'll be eyeing up my opponents deployment to figure out which unit I want to replace with a Yncarne!
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I think I'd rather use a DS alpha strike to take out an opponents anti MC weaponry and bring the Yncarne in on my turn to give out his fearless and FNP pain bubble. I'm not a fan of 110pt sacrificial lambs, maybe a 51pt GJB unit.
I think I'll be eyeing up my opponents deployment to figure out which unit I want to replace with a Yncarne!
Oh, for sure. It is ideal that you kill one of their units, but their are reason to use your own. First of all, some Aeldari units are pretty squishy, so it is inevitable that some of your units will die. Secondly, you get to punish you opponent for doing this by having a new target suddenly pop up in an area that they may have been trying to clear Third, if Yncarne comes in on their turn, he can charge on your turn.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I think I'd rather use a DS alpha strike to take out an opponents anti MC weaponry and bring the Yncarne in on my turn to give out his fearless and FNP pain bubble. I'm not a fan of 110pt sacrificial lambs, maybe a 51pt GJB unit.
I think I'll be eyeing up my opponents deployment to figure out which unit I want to replace with a Yncarne!
both are viable. I use guardians a lot already though so I know they are sleeper OP. A viper might be the most efficient though. Double SC - mobile - and only 50 points (you ether got to kill it out fully or it's hitting you with 6 s6 a turn.)
Speaking of Vypers, I am really liking the idea of an USF with 4 single Vypers with dual Shuricannons. They drop in, fire those 6 shots (potentially earning their meager points back on that single drop) and then forcing the opponent to spend well more than the Vypers' cost trying to kill them, or ignore them and let them keep shooting. Either way pretty good for us
A USF with 4 cheep units coming in on turn one could be good for summoning the Yncarne too. Either picking off an enemy unit in a reasonably safe spot, or getting in your enemies face and getting killed to enable the turn 2 charge.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: A USF with 4 cheep units coming in on turn one could be good for summoning the Yncarne too. Either picking off an enemy unit in a reasonably safe spot, or getting in your enemies face and getting killed to enable the turn 2 charge.
But what is better? Dropping in, killing an enemy unit, bringing in Yncarne who cannot assault that turn and can be shot at by the oppoenent in their turn
OR, Drop in, kill some units, then wait until the opponent wastes some fire in their turn, but still kills one of your unit, THEN you bring in Yncarne.
The opponent probably didn't move in a way to prepare for that, nor were they able to cast any Psychic powers on him.
Either way you get to assault turn 2, but by waiting until the opponent's turn, they are less prepared for him.
If it's not a big alpha strike you're not going to want the Yncarne on your turn unless there is an enemy unit in a really good hiding place for him. My first few games will probably be a lot of fun going "surprise! Death incarnate!", might not be so good when people get wise to the tricks.
Dropping a sacrificial unit near an enemy assault unit will probably be best, that way Yncarne isn't around till the very end of the turn.
EDIT: Going back to wanting 2x WWP Archons and some reserve manipulation; I think the most efficient way is going to be an allied detachment of an Autarch and 3 GJBs. Any problems with that approach?
Dropping a sacrificial unit near an enemy assault unit will probably be best, that way Yncarne isn't around till the very end of the turn.
EDIT: Going back to wanting 2x WWP Archons and some reserve manipulation; I think the most efficient way is going to be an allied detachment of an Autarch and 3 GJBs. Any problems with that approach?
I approve of both of those statements.
Although, if you can get another Troop, you could make it a CAD and bring the Aegis with Comms relay. Now you get +1/-1 and rerolls for Reserves, making you the absolute master of Reserve manipulation. Just make sure the Autarch does not join any unit that you wish to Soulburst, as Soulburst is only allowed if every model in the unit has SfD.
two WWP archons is a bit much - archons suck royally and you only have 2 HQ choice in the reborn warhost. Like Galef said too - any non reborn warhost units remove soulburst from your squad - so 2 archons isn't really doable.
Also worth a note, if you teleport the Yncarne on on the top of turn 1, you can charge bottom of turn 1 either with soulburst, or normally. Won't happen but its possible
Thoughts on a falcon punch (firedragon aspect host in 3 falcons DS in) as Ynari, I know its a fun tactic as craftworlds, but not the best. Soulburst can make it crazy (DS next to two tanks, kill both. Thats a potential of 6 tanks a turn dead bc firedragons cause basically critical existence failure for any tank. At least the eldar tanks look baller
Galef wrote: Speaking of Vypers, I am really liking the idea of an USF with 4 single Vypers with dual Shuricannons. They drop in, fire those 6 shots (potentially earning their meager points back on that single drop) and then forcing the opponent to spend well more than the Vypers' cost trying to kill them, or ignore them and let them keep shooting. Either way pretty good for us
Weidekuh wrote: Archon with WWP and Armor of Misery + Shadowseer with the Mask of Secrets + either Wraithguards or Firedragons.
Psychic Shriek with -4 on enemy LD in the psychic phase.
Shoot, kill, shoot again in the shooting phase.
...profit
if you take the firedragons or blaster borne you should take a raider and leave the archon and shadowseer in the raider. With the raiders large profile you really increase the radius of the -4ld.
(although sanctuary would be awesome)
