8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
10906
Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Second Edition and I still dont have all my Kickstarter stuff. Another reminder of wasted money.
110309
Post by: ListenToMeWarriors
Are many backers still waiting for their kickstarter pledges from xx years ago? The temerity of this company.
1478
Post by: warboss
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Are many backers still waiting for their kickstarter pledges from xx years ago? The temerity of this company.
Some, whether in full or in part. For a several years and several hundred pages long record of how Prodos treats their most loyal customers, here's the link to the thread on the last AVP edition:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7770/556916.page
In a nutshell, some backers are finally after YEARS of seeing the product on the shelves of retail stores and online offered at less than what they paid, they're finally getting part or all of their rewards only just before Prodos makes it obsolete and can't ship it to anyone else.
16387
Post by: Manchu
will the rules be playable?
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Really excited for the future of UNICAST. One piece models with fantastic detail!
20344
Post by: DarkTraveler777
 warboss wrote:ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Are many backers still waiting for their kickstarter pledges from xx years ago? The temerity of this company.
Some, whether in full or in part. For a several years and several hundred pages long record of how Prodos treats their most loyal customers, here's the link to the thread on the last AVP edition:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7770/556916.page
In a nutshell, some backers are finally after YEARS of seeing the product on the shelves of retail stores and online offered at less than what they paid, they're finally getting part or all of their rewards only just before Prodos makes it obsolete and can't ship it to anyone else.
Thanks. Not supporting this game, then. That is a jacked up way of treating backers.
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah,
I'm still waiting for a Large chunk of my KS.
Prodos are terrible. their customer care is awful awful awful.
The owners don't care about gamers.
I recommend you all Avoid.
Panic...
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
Still waiting on the second half of my order from the KS years ago.
Never expected 2nd edition to come out before I got my 1st edition stuff...
23523
Post by: mrondeau
Welp, I still not have gotten anything, and now it will be obsolete if I ever receive it.
24956
Post by: Xca|iber
Well now... when I first saw this post go up, I thought "Oh hey that looks interesting." But having read up on the behavior of Prodos and their utter failure to fulfill their pledges, I can say with some certainty that I wouldn't touch this product with a 29.5 foot pole.
As always, thanks for the save, Dakka!
53523
Post by: Sining
Unicast models are pretty awesome. This should sell well to boardgamers
8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
I don't know. I got my 2 boxes when it first came out (and I was a kickstarter person), then I ordered the extra stuff, got those lickity split, then the drop ship arrived 4 days after I bought it... I have had luck 6/6 times so far. When I was missing a part in the starter they sent an entire new sprue.
100312
Post by: Clanan
 krazynadechukr wrote:I don't know. I got my 2 boxes when it first came out (and I was a kickstarter person), then I ordered the extra stuff, got those lickity split, then the drop ship arrived 4 days after I bought it... I have had luck 6/6 times so far. When I was missing a part in the starter they sent an entire new sprue.
I think that's the crux of the problem - they arbitrarily fulfill orders so some people/projects get theirs on time while others are left dormant for years.
63118
Post by: SeanDrake
So is this a new record for KS not only did it go retail before backers got theres but the 2nd edition hits retail before the original backers get theres.
Stay classy Prodos you have now joined the greats such as tony reidy and Mealstrom Games as morally deficent shysters.
78109
Post by: Tamereth
The new version looks good, I'd like a hands on with the models before committing (one part casts give me restic flashbacks) but the package is nice. I really like that it even comes with a custom foam insert. It's definitely an improvement over the original offering.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Man, I really like this look, but seriously douchey behavior towards fans has me steering clear on solidarity, even before self-interest of not wanting to get screwed.
4179
Post by: bubber
 spiralingcadaver wrote:Man, I really like this look, but seriously douchey behavior towards fans has me steering clear on solidarity, even before self-interest of not wanting to get screwed.
& this is the big problem. I have the game but I doubt anyone else in my area has it so will never get to play it 
29836
Post by: Elbows
Talk about kicking a lot of folks while they're down...what a knob-job of a company.
21499
Post by: Mr. Burning
FWIW
Anyone waiting on their pledges from KS or who doesn't want to business with Prodos because of their behaviour could contact the rights holder (Fox?)
They wont care about some crummy gamers pledges not being delivered, however making the point that it is damaging the brand that has been licensed may make them take notice.
4875
Post by: His Master's Voice
I'm fully prepared to do business with Prodos the moment I receive my Predators that's been in the mail for the past, what, three years?
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Never got round to buying the original but I've preorderd this.
4875
Post by: His Master's Voice
Well, good luck to ya, brave soul.
You'll need it.
1478
Post by: warboss
 His Master's Voice wrote:I'm fully prepared to do business with Prodos the moment I receive my Predators that's been in the mail for the past, what, three years?
You could just drive on a weekend vacation over to Warsaw, see the sights, and bang on their door. 
67097
Post by: angelofvengeance
Ain't no way Prodos is getting any more of my money. Good luck to those of you who end up buying this one. Suppose we should be bloody grateful they aren't running another Kickstarter for this game.
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Post by: montanhas18
I was in on the KS. I'm one of the "lucky" ones, got everything (apart from a cloaked predator) last year.
I will never, ever give Prodos a $ in pre-order or the like. Nope. If I ever buy from them - and this looks so good - it's from a physical or online store with stock.
As for the v2 itself, I have two questions that I know I'll never get any answer:
- Are the tiles and tokens compatible with v1? Same thickness and connections (for the tiles)? That would be nice for v1 owners.
- What's the benefit of pre-ordering? Is it cheaper? I certainly wouldn't trust it to be quicker. I still remember seeing the v1 box in my physical store BEFORE I got my KS v1 box.
The best thing I got from this KS is a mental list of the Prodos' employees who LIED to ks backers. I always check for their names on any new game I'm looking to buy. Fool me once...
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Post by: MrDwhitey
If I get it, it'll be from Firestorm or Wayland.
Not direct.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
redacted
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
...Which means what to you? (Seriously, are you talking about assuming they'll fulfill? That KS isn't a pseudo-accountable middleman? I'm pretty sure prodos hasn't delivered their last preorder either)
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Post by: Zywus
Why back this when the models get to retailers faster than to the backers?
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Just found out today that prodos made this model, don't know if limited edition or what but I'd like to buy one, problem is I can't find any place that sells it.
So if anyone has this model for sale please feel free to send me a pm if you'd like to sell it.
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Post by: CURNOW
That's from the kickstarter . Not sure anyone actually received one yet
4179
Post by: bubber
i have but its not for sale.
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Post by: Manchu
Several posters have kind of touched on this but I think the point merits expanding:
The ongoing AVP KS fiasco PROVES that Prodos is untrustworthy. If you do business with them directly, understand you have only yourself to blame at this point if they screw you over. You are on notice.
At the same time, I don't believe in boycotting their product. I bailed on the KS because something felt off to me. And I have picked up the stuff I wanted, minus the Predatrix, as it has been released, almost always at a lower price than via the KS. The sculpts are really nice. It is a worthwhile product, less the terrible and essentially incoherent rules. If you want some great figs from these licenses, by all means buy the excellent Prodos ones.
But get them through a reputable reatiler that actually cares about its customer service, such as Wayland Games. At this point, there is no wisdom in handing money directly to Prodos for anything.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I still, to this day, do not have my AvP Kickstarter stuff. All I ordered were the fething tiles...
33564
Post by: Vermis
Is it smuggling chestburster eggs?
97288
Post by: Thebiggesthat
It's not prodos without a sleezy mini!
74568
Post by: dekinrie
Did they ever release space s crusade I remember that was up for pre order about a year ago just checked on wayland still on pre order
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Post by: His Master's Voice
It's a faithful representation of how female Predators are portrayed in licensed material. You may think it's sleazy, but in this instance the sleaziness has little to do with Prodos itself.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
 dekinrie wrote:Did they ever release space s crusade I remember that was up for pre order about a year ago just checked on wayland still on pre order
No. just a few minis came out. Space Rusade also had a shipping from date..... so read into that what you will.
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Post by: rabidaskal
I wasn't part of the AvP KS, but what soured me on Prodos was their LOAD kickstarter. The whole fake NDA thing to cover up that Archon Studios = Prodos, and then when BGG uncovered the connection, them coming in and threatening legal action against the site because the BGGers 'sabotaged' their KS.
At the end of the day plastic toymen and delayed kickstarters are whatever in the grand scheme of things, but imho there is something off with the way these guys think.
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Post by: Vermis
His Master's Voice wrote:
It's a faithful representation of how female Predators are portrayed in licensed material. You may think it's sleazy, but in this instance the sleaziness has little to do with Prodos itself.
Oh sure, late 80s/90s comics: a catalogue of the best ideas and restraint.
I mean, look at the evidence here. It could definitely use bigger restraints. 
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Post by: CptJake
I'm another KS backer still waiting on much of his pledge. Knowing retail buyers will get the 2nd edition of a game before I get everything I paid for a few years ago doesn't make me too happy.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
At what point does one consider Prodos' lack of KS sending to be fraud?
I mean there's risks inherent to any KS, because not every one is run by an experienced company, and even when they are, random stuff can happen which wrecks the whole project, or severely delays stuff.
But here, the KS seems to have worked, they're just not upholding their end of the bargain?
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Post by: CptJake
I considered it a fraud the second they lied to KS and us backers about the 'IP Issue' and had the KS page pulled.
All Jareks lies since confirm it. His and his company's lies and deception used to KS LOAD under a 'new' company further cemented the fact they are gak bags and frauds.
23523
Post by: mrondeau
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:At what point does one consider Prodos' lack of KS sending to be fraud?
I mean there's risks inherent to any KS, because not every one is run by an experienced company, and even when they are, random stuff can happen which wrecks the whole project, or severely delays stuff.
But here, the KS seems to have worked, they're just not upholding their end of the bargain?
The moment the product hits retail stores before being shipped to backers.
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Post by: NAVARRO
A shame this license and these miniatures have such a bad company to represent them.
Wonder if these will pop up at Salute.
402
Post by: Krinsath
Going to echo Manchu and say caveat emptor to anyone buying directly.
As further evidence, Infamy Miniatures Tara Kurkova project is about six months late on their delivery estimate, which is pretty typical for a KS really, but they had actually thought they would be able to ship in November/December based on what their casters told them. Obviously they're still not shipping yet so things appear to have gone awry there, and the caster not responding cited was a major issue. A later comment from one of the other people on the project said they were getting a package from Prodos which makes them seem like the caster in question. Now, it could be that Infamy had a different caster, that one effed up royally and they went to Prodos to bail out the project, but this quote puts me too much in mind of Prodos's standard MO with AvP backers to extend that benefit of the doubt:
Things didn't quite go to plan at the end of last year, with my caster once again missing the promised dates for delivery of casts. So, apologies that you are still waiting on your Kickstarter goodies. I feel my hands are tied on this one, it's been a real struggle to get updates from them recently, and without a good flow of information I've been left with little more than hope and the ability to keep pestering them.
If Prodos is the only caster for that, the examples shown off are indeed quality work just like AvP models do look really good. If only Prodos could match the quality of the models they make with honesty and reality in what they say they'd be a pretty good company. Unfortunately, they do seem to like to over-promise and over-commit and be unable to keep up with what they said they would do. They're pretty much the textbook example of Hofstadter's Law.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:At what point does one consider Prodos' lack of KS sending to be fraud?
I mean there's risks inherent to any KS, because not every one is run by an experienced company, and even when they are, random stuff can happen which wrecks the whole project, or severely delays stuff.
But here, the KS seems to have worked, they're just not upholding their end of the bargain?
There never was actually a KS.
The point when they received funding, right after the pledge end date, and then pulling the project off of Kickstarter, thereby renigging on their contracting requirements.
Additionally, the point where they willfully decided to underhandedly use a third party company to start, yet more KS's, and rinse and repeat, all the while, badmouthing FOX about their "Issues", ( and I use the quotations in Dr Evil sarcasm...
YOU sir, are too generous in your appraisal of the situation.
What is the worse about it is that "PRODOS/ ARCHON STUDIOS/ whoever else they are this week" is willfully noncompliant, and in THIS country, or Australia, they would have been sued under the table for even there halfwit efforts on Warzone, but this other issue, FOX is very interested in, seeing as their name is attached to these buffoons. I am definitely going to get back in contact with them, seeing as this can be damaging to their ongoing efforts on the upcoming movies that are coming out pretty soon.
And finally, I put the KS stuff I received here up on the trades forum that needs a new home. $370.00 for the lot. I wrote off the rest of the stuff, and honestly, after the treatment of the whole project, they can go stuff it.
I'd rather just bin it, but I would like to recoup some of my loss.
Just when you think Prodos is at the top of their scumbaggery, they top it, the fethers.... 
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
But how did they take people's money if they pulled the KS?
Surely as soon as they've cashed in their pledges, it's too late to cancel the project?
4402
Post by: CptJake
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But how did they take people's money if they pulled the KS? Surely as soon as they've cashed in their pledges, it's too late to cancel the project?
They didn't 'cancel' it. They lied to KS and had the KS pages removed due to a fake IP issue AFTER they collected the money.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Ahhh.
Still baffled that KS let them keep the funds though.
4402
Post by: CptJake
KS terms of use make it pretty clear KS is never directly responsible for any mishaps/wrong doings. KS has no mechanism in place to go after the project creator and recoup funds and distribute them to backers.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Sounds very dodgy to me - though the only one I've ever back is Bears Vs Babies, which I'm expecting some time in June/July.
Though I do know that in the U.K., the Financial Conduct Authority were consulting on crowd funding and PTP lending last year.
As might be expected of a Regulator, it's quite dry reading - but may be worth your while?
402
Post by: Krinsath
It was about a year later. The project funded in November 28th, 2013 as you can verify using Dakka's thread:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3180/556916.page#6296139
The first I can find mention of the page disappearing is November 24th, 2014 on BGG:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1275451/ip-dispute
So the money was likely long gone from any viable means of recovery especially as Prodos is a Polish company; their UK presence was a shell company just to be able to start a KS project (not illegal, but it muddies the waters dramatically for this issue). Whether there was really an IP dispute in that they didn't have the license to do some aspect of the project or if it was just a lie to remove public and non-Prodos controlled information from public view is likely never going to be known.
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Post by: CptJake
It is known. Jarek and crew initially claimed they pulled the page by accident. That was a lie they later admitted to. They then later admitted there was no IP issue either (which is what they told KS to get the page removed).
76278
Post by: Spinner
The balls.
The Imperial Guard standard-issue wheelbarrow-requiring brass balls on these guys. 
Also, is it just me, or is putting 'brand new one-piece miniatures' as part of their marketing strategy for this...a little weird? I was lucky enough to finally get a box from them, and the models were almost worth all of the bs. Almost. There's a whole bunch of directions they could go, from 'the rules are playable' to 'we won't run off with your money and laugh in your stupid rube face, honest', but redesigning the miniatures seems odd.
402
Post by: Krinsath
Yeah, I see that further down in the BGG thread so I stand corrected.
Though really, calling him a liar might upset his son which I believe was an excuse Prodos used for something (though what eludes me).
105234
Post by: Snebze
Prodos did a 'pre-order' last year for their 'Space Crusade' game. It was meant to ship post-July 2016. They've been ignoring all attempts to contact them about it and have been almost silent on the subject for.... almost 7 months now (they released some new art this month, but still haven't commented on the actual game, from what I can tell).
So yes, if you've ordered from them... good luck.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
 Vermis wrote: His Master's Voice wrote:
It's a faithful representation of how female Predators are portrayed in licensed material. You may think it's sleazy, but in this instance the sleaziness has little to do with Prodos itself.
Oh sure, late 80s/90s comics: a catalogue of the best ideas and restraint.
I mean, look at the evidence here. It could definitely use bigger restraints.
Not really.
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Big_Mama
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Snebze wrote:
Prodos did a 'pre-order' last year for their 'Space Crusade' game. It was meant to ship post-July 2016. They've been ignoring all attempts to contact them about it and have been almost silent on the subject for.... almost 7 months now (they released some new art this month, but still haven't commented on the actual game, from what I can tell).
So yes, if you've ordered from them... good luck.
There is no difference for Prodos. Either way, their character is gak city. All they want is your money. there also is no up close visuals on those minis, so Caveat Emptor, if you even get anything but a headache. Not just no, feck no! THAT new game looks like a hot steamy pile.... Can't WAIT to see the gunked up details...
1
93221
Post by: Lance845
Vermis wrote: His Master's Voice wrote: It's a faithful representation of how female Predators are portrayed in licensed material. You may think it's sleazy, but in this instance the sleaziness has little to do with Prodos itself.
Oh sure, late 80s/90s comics: a catalogue of the best ideas and restraint. I mean, look at the evidence here. It could definitely use bigger restraints.
Actually it's a faithful representation of the descriptions in the 1994 novel "Aliens Vs Predator Prey" written by Steve and Stephani Perry. In the book, the main predator, Dachande, describes their females. They are bigger then the males and it's not uncommon for a male Yautja to get picked up and thrown across the room during mating. If your talking about how little armor she is wearing, why don't you look at every predator we have ever seen except the ones in the first AVP movie. They are all walking around in 1/4 shirts and loin cloths. That female Yautja is wearing more than most.
40919
Post by: spiralingcadaver
Just to nit-pick, the original of original canon material, the first AVP comic series, has predators pretty beefy and armored. They basically have the SF version of full plate except webbing instead of mail.
16387
Post by: Manchu
... is the '87 move, where the pred is nearly nude. The original crossover story preserved that look: The fully-armored look you are referring to came in tye next year with the first AvP miniseries. If you think about the original pred design, the idea was pretty obviously to pit human beefcake up against xeno beefcake. I have never understood the objection to fempreds being portrayed in a similar manner.
40919
Post by: spiralingcadaver
Oh, always thought the miniseries was first.
And yeah, of course the movies came first, but I'd argue that the comic series has more directly influenced tie ins and other media than the 2 movies did-- action figures and video games were based on the comics, for instance.
16387
Post by: Manchu
I would say that the look from the first movie has been much more influential than that first comic mini series.
4402
Post by: CptJake
Anyone ask Jarek and crew if everything for the 2nd edition has already been approved by Fox?
If so, was there an answer?
I find it hard to believe the alternate pose marines from the KS are STILL not approved yet they were able to get the tiles and figures for the 2nd edition through the process....
16387
Post by: Manchu
Well, what if they were working on the latter rather than the former ...
8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
redacted
18410
Post by: filbert
krazynadechukr wrote:Nice of mods to change my post title. Gotta throw shade into everything in this life. SIGH
I'm glad whoever did so and I applaud them for it. Your title was:
a) Obnoxiously all in caps and
b) Too long so it distorted the post headers and quote/reply buttons
Also, I think it is pretty important for people to know what utter gak bags Prodos are, quite frankly.
16387
Post by: Manchu
krazynadechukr wrote:Nice of mods to change my post title. Gotta throw shade into everything in this life. SIGH
I changed the title of this thread for two reasons: (1) all caps post titles are annoying and (2) the fact that Prodos is going on with a second edition of a game while there are lots of unfulfilled first edition KS rewards is one of the most important facets of this news. If it's "throwing shade" to say the facts about the Prodos business model, consider what that says about Prodos.
40919
Post by: spiralingcadaver
Gotta' say, as a consumer, I'd rather downer accurate info than positive but missing important stuff...
8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
1478
Post by: warboss
 filbert wrote: krazynadechukr wrote:Nice of mods to change my post title. Gotta throw shade into everything in this life. SIGH
I'm glad whoever did so and I applaud them for it.
Agreed. I think it is much more informative of the full situation at a glance now.
5478
Post by: Panic
Yeah,
I think it's the most important aspect of Prodos.
They think it's ok to keep diverting funds to new projects while they owe a large number of customers product.
I'm a big fan of the franchise.
I'm actively against giving Prodos any more money unti they square themselves with the community.
That said the new tiles look much better and the new figure less likely to break.
Prodos!!! Where's our stufff???!!
Panic...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I mean I've seen the damned boxed game in stores so why don't I have my tiles?
1478
Post by: warboss
 H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean I've seen the damned boxed game in stores so why don't I have my tiles?
Did you pay them in advance?
Are you ineligible for a refund?
If the answer is yes to both then they have no pressing reason to ship product to you with any haste.
16387
Post by: Manchu
That's exactly what everyone meeds to think about when considering any direct purchase from Prodos
105234
Post by: Snebze
warboss wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean I've seen the damned boxed game in stores so why don't I have my tiles?
Did you pay them in advance?
Are you ineligible for a refund?
If the answer is yes to both then they have no pressing reason to ship product to you with any haste.
And don't forget that after 6 years you can't claim anyway due to the statute of limitations. (I may be wrong...)
64018
Post by: Freytag93
Such a shame. These models look great, and I really like the AVP universe. I would love to have them. But having watched the first KS debacle, I vowed to NEVER EVER support this company. Condolences to all who are still waiting on stuff after years of lies.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Well, it ain't like Prodos is the only licensee for Aliens action figures and toys. Dig around here. The good stuff's not cheap, and the cheap stuff's not good, but maybe you'll have better luck than I did!
http://www.alienscollection.com/index.html
Oh, nom nom nom.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Emailed them about buying the female predator. Got these replies:
>>> Hello,
>>> found out today that you guys made this model. I can't find it on your site for sale so I'm wondering if it's possible to buy it somehow?
>>> How much does it cost and can I order it? Do you have any other female predators available?
>> Hi there thanks for your email, This model will be available once we have clear all AvP Kickstarter parcels. We have made a promise that non of KS product will be releases until we have all backers happy with their purchase.
>>
>> Thanks
> Hey,
> how long do you think this is going to take? Are we talking days? weeks? months?
> Regards
> Daniel
>>It should be about 2-3 months, as we are going to start wave 3 shipping as soon as we have Clear predators from China and printed Wargaming books. Thanks
29190
Post by: CURNOW
Sooooo never then ? Lol
3806
Post by: Grot 6
 MadCowCrazy wrote:Emailed them about buying the female predator. Got these replies:
>>> Hello,
>>> found out today that you guys made this model. I can't find it on your site for sale so I'm wondering if it's possible to buy it somehow?
>>> How much does it cost and can I order it? Do you have any other female predators available?
>> Hi there thanks for your email, This model will be available once we have clear all AvP Kickstarter parcels. We have made a promise that non of KS product will be releases until we have all backers happy with their purchase.
>>
>> Thanks
> Hey,
> how long do you think this is going to take? Are we talking days? weeks? months?
> Regards
> Daniel
>>It should be about 2-3 months, as we are going to start wave 3 shipping as soon as we have Clear predators from China and printed Wargaming books. Thanks
Yes, we've been hearing 2-3 months for years now... AVOID THEM AT ALL COSTS. You just need to slip away before your eyes get your brain and wallet in trouble. You'll send them money, they will give you some excuses, then finally, they move on and ignore the whole thing, until the next mark comes along and rinse and repeat, They have been doing it the whole time, and they have no reason to stop when they have no repercussions in Poland.
Honestly, do not give this company a dime.
22802
Post by: MadCowCrazy
But I really really need this model, well the head at least.
Anyone got it who can borrow it to me or sell me one?
105234
Post by: Snebze
MadCowCrazy wrote:But I really really need this model, well the head at least.
Anyone got it who can borrow it to me or sell me one?
My advice is wait for a general release then buy from a third-party stockist, like Wayland Games (other retailers are available). Prodos screwed me over a pre-order, but because I'd purchased through a different company, I got my money back without any issues.
55884
Post by: Caliginous
I was literally about to pledge on their first KS when I decided I'd just read some of the comments first. One backer had written a message that said something along the lines of them thinking of cancelling their pledge because the KS was asking for a lot of money and was light on details that weren't forthcoming. Prodos' reply was: "Bye bye! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!" I read it a few times in stunned awe and decided then and there that this was not a company I wanted to give any of my money to.
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Post by: montanhas18
I'm a KS backer (one of the "lucky" ones, "already" got most of my stuff).
I saw this pre-order and asked two questions:
- Are the tiles compatible with 1st edition (the fittings)? Because that would make it more interesting for 1st buyers. And the thickness, 'cause the 1st edition has two thickness. At least for tokens.
- Why should I pre-order? Is it cheaper? Do I get extra stuff? Am I guaranteed to get it earlier than retailers/stores?
No answer. So no pre-order. I already gave money to Prodos on a "pay early" situation (the KS). Not making the same mistake again.
Having said that... the miniatures look great, as always.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
Pre ordered mine.
Paypal has a 180 day refund policy and I have always received a refund when I have opened a dispute of non-receipt. Paypal is great in backing up the buyer. So, going into this knowing (about KS tragedy) but being prepared too!
note - I have been a lucky KS supporter, and am 6 for 6 in getting all my KS & pre order items thus far. I feel bad for what many have gone through (didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.
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Post by: warboss
 krazynadechukr wrote:Pre ordered mine. Paypal has a 180 day refund policy and I have always received a refund when I have opened a dispute of non-receipt. Paypal is great in backing up the buyer. So, going into this knowing (about KS tragedy) but being prepared too! note - I have been a lucky KS supporter, and am 6 for 6 in getting all my KS & pre order items thus far. I feel bad for what many have gone through (didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.
Paypal changed its policies regarding crowdfunding last year. If you crowdfund with Paypal, you're gak out of luck if the creator scams you. https://www.engadget.com/2016/05/08/paypal-drops-crowdfunding-protection/ That doesn't apply to traditional purchases or pre-orders like this but if something is labelled crowdfunding then you don't have 6 minutes let alone 6 months to get a refund. Alot of people don't know about that change so I figured now would be a good time to mention it.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
warboss wrote: krazynadechukr wrote:Pre ordered mine.
Paypal has a 180 day refund policy and I have always received a refund when I have opened a dispute of non-receipt. Paypal is great in backing up the buyer. So, going into this knowing (about KS tragedy) but being prepared too!
note - I have been a lucky KS supporter, and am 6 for 6 in getting all my KS & pre order items thus far. I feel bad for what many have gone through (didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.
Paypal changed its policies regarding crowdfunding last year. If you crowdfund with Paypal, you're gak out of luck if the creator scams you.
https://www.engadget.com/2016/05/08/paypal-drops-crowdfunding-protection/
That doesn't apply to traditional purchases or pre-orders like this but if something is labelled crowdfunding then you don't have 6 minutes let alone 6 months to get a refund. Alot of people don't know about that change so I figured now would be a good time to mention it.
My paypal is funded by my (Bank) Visa, which has refunded me many times (I can report fraud for up to 18 months from purchase) no questions asked. If Paypal fails me, I call the bank, if they fail me, I call the Visa number. There's many ways around Paypal policies, and after being with them over 15 years and 5000+ transactions (as a business entity on paypal), 99.999% of the time they have always sided with me. http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/09/The_More_You_Know/lead_large.png?GE2DGMBRGUZTANJRFYYA====
BTW, the receipt from Prodos & on Paypal does not, anywhere, have the term pre order on it.
"ORDER DETAILS
Order: --------------------------------------------------
Payment: PayPal
Reference Product Unit price Quantity Total price
AvP The Hunt Begins Second Edition
£ 48.99
1
£ 48.99
Products
£ 48.99
Discounts
£ 0.00
Gift-wrapping
£ 0.00
Shipping
£ 15.00
Total Tax paid
£ 0.00
Total paid
£ 63.99
SHIPPING
Carrier: Prodos Games Export
Payment: PayPal"
I contacted Paypal about this particular order, just said I am concerned, and they did say I am covered if something goes wrong.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
That's pretty uncharitable of you, krazy.
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Post by: overtyrant
Pre ordered mine as well
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Post by: Elbows
I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
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Post by: CptJake
 Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
No gak. Even with zero cares about the AvP KS, you would think they would hold off pre-ordering based on the fact Jarek and crew have yet to deliver the Space Crusade game pre-orders...
Reward piss poor behavior, you get piss poor behavior.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
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Post by: Azreal13
Yeah...no...
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Post by: warboss
MadCowCrazy wrote: Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
Like any population of people, a subset of gamers are a selfcentric and impulsive bunch. If you offer a big enough discount or a bauble shiny enough, I've found plenty won't mind rewarding bad behavior for their own potential benefit until that bad behavior happens to be directed at them. YMMV. Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm glad you have those extra protections as well as such a large purchase history to fall back on. The latter of course provides you leeway that less frequent purchasers wouldn't necessarily get easily. I had a friend who also went to his bank and bypassed paypal to get around their policies... and paypal didn't like it one bit and threatened to close his account if he did it again. YMMV. In any case, I'm glad you're covered. With Prodos, you might need the protection.
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Post by: Joyboozer
krazynadechukr wrote: (didn't even know it was that bad actually), and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.
The "Beasts of War" effect in full swing.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
I don't know what that even means. Anyway, I wont buy a Ford 'cause of the Pinto exploding, won't eat at Carl's 'cause they donate to the KKK, and if I get burnt by Prodos then I wont deal with them again. I'll get my money back though!
Here is paypal receipt screen info -
Description Unit price Qty Amount
AvP The Hunt Begins Second Edition
Item# 291 £48.99 GBP 1 £48.99 GBP
Subtotal £48.99 GBP
Shipping and handling £15.00 GBP
Total £63.99 GBP
Payment £63.99 GBP
Payment sent to service@prodos.co.uk
From amount $82.11 USD
To amount £63.99 GBP
Exchange rate: 1 USD = 0.779362 GBP
Issues with this transaction?
You have 180 days from the date of the transaction to open a dispute in the Resolution Center.
Questions? Go to the Help Center at www.paypal.com/help.
RIGHT TO REFUND
You, the customer, are entitled to a refund of the money...
Prodos says I'll get it on or before March 27th, if not I'll put in a dispute on the 28th and refunded within 10 days of that.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Nah, he pre-ordered it, which is a binding sales contract covered by a multitude of laws.
It's that Kickstarter "this is not a pre-order" language that lets these companies get away with ridiculous stuff like this. I love the Alien franchise, but I haven't bought the game for this specific reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been waiting a month for some Perry miniatures I ordered from Wayland (on January 23rd) because I mistakenly thought that "Available to Order" would mean something silly like they had the product to send me. Turns out I missed the fine print that was 2-3 weeks just to get it, and then ship it to me, lol.
But, they're a discount retailer, so I guess there is an adage about getting what you paid for. Though, that would be nice. Getting what I paid for, lol.
Checked their site just now, now they have added the "Restock Expected" language to the products.
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Post by: Joyboozer
Beasts of War promote the hell out of anything and frown upon negative discussion as though it's just "shade". Makes it hard for consumers to know which companies are the good guys.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
MadCowCrazy wrote: Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy. 
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
 lord_blackfang wrote: MadCowCrazy wrote: Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.
Wayland offered to honour every outstanding order that Maelstrom had as they offered to buy Maelstrom. Maelstrom refused so Wayland bought their debt and claimed it. Maelstrom pretty much liquidated everything so that Wayland would get nothing and in doing so also screwed over ALLOT of people.
So everyone would have gotten their orders if Maelstrom hadn't been so bitchy about it.
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Post by: SeanDrake
MadCowCrazy wrote: lord_blackfang wrote: MadCowCrazy wrote: Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.
Wayland offered to honour every outstanding order that Maelstrom had as they offered to buy Maelstrom. Maelstrom refused so Wayland bought their debt and claimed it. Maelstrom pretty much liquidated everything so that Wayland would get nothing and in doing so also screwed over ALLOT of people.
So everyone would have gotten their orders if Maelstrom hadn't been so bitchy about it.
Also mealstrom were planning on screwing everyone long before Wayland intervened, you can trace the setup of Mierce and other shell companies months before they folded and also the sale of all rights and equipment from mealstrom to mierce for a nominal amount.
For the last months of business mealstrom were taking pre orders for stock they knew they could not get as suppliers ( GW for example) had started cutting them off.
There bussiness strategy for the last 12 months was to take pre orders and use that money to buy stock for the previous set of pre orders and then take more pre orders to pay for those pre orders. They at some point hit a tipping point with not enough cash to honour the pre orders taken at that point the sales started in a desperate bid.to claw back some cash.(Sound familiar)
It was in the middle of all that when mealstrom was asset stripped by the managment to other companies in family members names as well.as his(according to one staff member the boss cleared his mortgage) hard to be certain where it ended as no financials werel reported for the final years and I missed the court hearing.
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Post by: montanhas18
Joyboozer wrote:Beasts of War promote the hell out of anything and frown upon negative discussion as though it's just "shade". Makes it hard for consumers to know which companies are the good guys.
This is so true. And it was so obvious to anyone on this KS. They're either ignorant of the KS problems and too lazy to actually read into it or just don't care and want Prodos' games on the site and youtube channel.
Can't wait for them to gush over this 2nd Edition without mentioning the KS problems at all.
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Post by: Vash108
Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?
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Post by: Sheck2
 montanhas18 wrote:
I'm a KS backer (one of the "lucky" ones, "already" got most of my stuff).
I saw this pre-order and asked two questions:
- Are the tiles compatible with 1st edition (the fittings)? Because that would make it more interesting for 1st buyers. And the thickness, 'cause the 1st edition has two thickness. At least for tokens.
I asked a similar question about compatibility to 1st edition (specifically the tiles and miniatures - where they were the same scale). Prodos said yes. Everything is compatible and same scale.
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Post by: Krinsath
 Vash108 wrote:Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?
No, this pre-dated major crowdfunding campaigns. Maelstrom was an online retailer in the UK. They racked up a huge amount of debt, and at some point they basically turned into a near-Ponzi scheme where they couldn't afford to pay for this month's pre-orders without getting next month's pre-order money. The on-going issues with payment resulted in many suppliers cutting them off, which then worsened their ability to get orders. Wayland Games ended up buying a goodly chunk of debt from one supplier and reportedly offered to buy Maelstrom Games. They declined, Wayland called in the debt which Maelstrom couldn't pay and they then declared bankruptcy. Mysteriously, a large amount of assets (IP and equipment) had been sold off to other companies owned by the principals of Maelstrom. Mierce was one such company, and is still run by the same person to my knowledge. Nothing strictly illegal appears to have occurred, but that this transfer was happening when the ship was steering directly at the rocks makes many people suspicious that at the tail-end of their run the store was much more of a scam than an honest attempt to do business.
Old Dakka thread on the topic: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/464643.page
Prodos did try a similar "re-branding" with Archon as a different company, but that fell apart pretty quickly when people started probing into it. When they know their brand is so toxic that they conceal it on a KS project they're running themselves, it does make me wonder why they don't just try to fix their mistakes instead of trying to obfuscate things. That they don't fix things should make folks very leery, IMO.
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
Vash108 wrote:Not sure what Maelstrom is, but did they do a KS like AVP and it fell through?
Maelstrom was one of the larger retailers of miniature games/models in the UK and Wayland Games biggest competition. As mentioned above they started having financial problems which caused problems for one of the UKs biggest miniature importer as they weren't getting paid for bought product. Wayland saw a chance to get rid of their biggest competition so bought the debt and demanded Maelstrom pay. Maelstrom countered by liquidating pretty much everything and sold all company assets etc to other companies owned by the owner of Maelstrom. They took pre-orders for things they knew they would never fulfill and used that money to boost the other companies. If Maelstrom would have done the honourable thing then Wayland Games would now own the whole Mierce Miniatures line and everyone would have gotten what Maelstrom owed them as Wayland said they would honour any outstanding order from Maelstrom. Instead Maelstrom screwed everyone over, the reason you can't use paypal to order anything from Mierce Miniatures is because paypal refuses to work with companies who are run by people known to have scammed customers in the past. If you email Mierce about it they state they've had problems with paypal in the past and don't like their system... So which is worse? Maelstrom or Prodos? I'd say what Maelstrom did is far worse and there is a chance people might get their stuff from Prodos but that's still like digging through doodoo trying to find your pre-order... I wouldn't trust Beasts of War with anything, they got caught buying page views or some such a few years ago and they were pretty gakky with how they just left those 2 other guys that used to work for them. They suddenly got like 10k views from some asian country in order to jump up on the "most popular" charts of some site. Don't remember exactly but perhaps it was facebook likes or something. Either way I stopped watching them after this so don't know much of what they've been up to these past few years. From this thread it seems they are promoting the AVP 2nd season or something. Something something something lack of integrity or something...
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Post by: Snebze
krazynadechukr wrote: if I get burnt by Prodos then I wont deal with them again. I'll get my money back though!
Here is paypal receipt screen info
You'll be using that. The Space Crusade pre-order was meant to ship In August last year... and the only update we've heard about it is that they've got a new piece of art for the box and a few cards. That art has taken them -SEVEN MONTHS-, y'know... seven months after the so-called release date.
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
They sank due to dodgy business and dismissive attitudes towards their customers. Prodos have distinct whiff of the same attitude. but as long as people don't care because the sculpts are nice, then these chancers will continue to reap the rewards.
If something smells off, would you take a bite and see how it tastes?
66741
Post by: ced1106
Give an old meaning to BGG'ers who say KS is a pre-order system.
53170
Post by: montanhas18
Sheck2 wrote: montanhas18 wrote:
- Are the tiles compatible with 1st edition (the fittings)? Because that would make it more interesting for 1st buyers. And the thickness, 'cause the 1st edition has two thickness. At least for tokens.
I asked a similar question about compatibility to 1st edition (specifically the tiles and miniatures - where they were the same scale). Prodos said yes. Everything is compatible and same scale.
I missed your question :( Thanks, that's a plus for sure.
I added the game to my wishlist... from a online store, eventually. On a Black Friday or the like.
105234
Post by: Snebze
montanhas18 wrote:
I added the game to my wishlist... from a online store, eventually. On a Black Friday or the like.
As I've probably mentioned before... Wayland keep Prodos... when they can get the stock. When they can't they've always offered me a refund.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.
Yikes.
I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.
I'll wait for ebay or online store.
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Post by: CptJake
krazynadechukr wrote:I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.
Yikes.
I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.
I'll wait for ebay or online store.
Space Crusade also still shows as a pre-order, with a July 2016 ship date.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
I'd not kept up with the Space Crusade offering as since Ive been burned on the AVP KS, PRODOS are not getting £1 more from me. Only when I recieve the stuff I ordered over 3 years ago will I consider.
Can't deliver AVP to people who gave them their £££. Now can't deliver another Game. Worst Company ever, people should approach with caution. You'll probably find they don't have the AVP v2 ready to go yet, they are just taking pre-orders to fund something else rather than the AVP v2. Whatever they are taking £££ for, it's certainly not to ship out the now out of date AVP Game to KS Backers.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
 CptJake wrote: krazynadechukr wrote:I see that warzone actually still shows preorder "shipping June-July 2016." Never paid attention to that. Glad that was pointed out.
Yikes.
I cxld my paypal transaction, instant refund.
I'll wait for ebay or online store.
Space Crusade also still shows as a pre-order, with a July 2016 ship date.
That's what I was refering to. Automatically Appended Next Post: In my book when it says pre-order and ships xx-xx-xxxx I assume that's factual. I'm not too sure about Prodos any longer.
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Post by: Manchu
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:I mistakenly thought that "Available to Order" would mean something silly like they had the product to send me
For some reason, this confuses a lot of people. I have done an enormous amount of business with Wayland since Brexit and am 100% satisfied with their service. (That includes orders that have taken over a month to ship - somehow I never confused In Stock with Available to Order. I hope the phrase "Restock Expected" will help out with this issue.) I ordered almost all of my AvP figs from Wayland in one go. It took 30 days for them to fill the order. It's worth the wait, not having to deal with Prodos directly.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
The weak state of the pound is what made them attractive. However, there's a certain lack of clarity when you use terminology like "Available to Order" when virtually no other online store uses such phrasing. The problem was probably in how I came to their site, which meant there were no adjacent items that said "In Stock", signifying a differentiation from "We'll eventually get it, we're sure."
The new addition offers far more clarity.
As far as ordering AvP through Wayland, it means little to Prodos. They still got their wholesale price for the product, so you paid them either way. Avoiding AvP hasn't been a question of price, it has been avoiding putting money in their pockets. If my LGS ever dumps its lingering stock of the 1st edition, maybe I'll pick it up, since at that point I'm helping them clear inventory, rather than creating demand for more Prodos products.
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Post by: Manchu
I am all for Prodos getting paid in exchange for me getting their excellent sculpts. I'm not going to be co-opted into someone else's boycott. At the same time, I'm also not going to pre-order from a company with a track record of not delivering.
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Post by: CptJake
 Manchu wrote:I am all for Prodos getting paid in exchange for me getting their excellent sculpts. I'm not going to be co-opted into someone else's boycott. At the same time, I'm also not going to pre-order from a company with a track record of not delivering.
I'm all for Prodos getting me their excellent sculpts which I paid for years ago.
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Post by: Manchu
CptJake wrote:I'm all for Prodos getting me their excellent sculpts which I paid for years ago.
I feel your pain, having been screwed on other KS projects. But the correct lesson to learn from a company fething over their pre-order customers is not to pre-order anything from said company.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
Manchu wrote: CptJake wrote:I'm all for Prodos getting me their excellent sculpts which I paid for years ago.
I feel your pain, having been screwed on other KS projects. But the correct lesson to learn from a company fething over their pre-order customers is not to pre-order anything from said company.
An argument could be made that in a community as small as ours some solidarity among customers to shun bad vendors is another lesson that should be learned in a situation such as this to prevent more bad practices in the future.
Now, I am not making that argument in your case, Manchu, or for anyone else who wish to buy products from companies with shady reputations. I am simply pointing out that the acceptance of poor behavior by vendors in our particular market ensures the continuation of those bad practices. If the community won't shun them what lessons will those companies learn?
That being said everyone has free will and can do with their money as they wish. But it is interesting to me that as a community we tolerate such shoddy practices from the companies who are fighting for our business.
But I guess that is life. You do something well enough and you are forgiven for even the worst offenses. See Michael Jackson, GW, Michael Vick, and I guess Prodos for examples of this.
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Post by: Manchu
I initially pledged a good deal of money to the AvP KS. At no point did I really believe that the existence of the figures would hinge on the success of the KS. Prodos had already paid for the license and paid for some sculpts, among other things. Unless the company simply defaulted on its debts in bankruptcy, the figures were going to make it to market.
So the only relevant question for me was - does the risk that Prodos won't deliver outweigh the possible discount? And I just didn't have a good feeling about the KS, especially considering the amount of money I was going to pledge. I bailed.
Prodos has in fact brought the figs to market. And they are excellent. If we want to talk about buying and boycotting in terms of encouragement and punishment then I must be encouraging Prodos to continue to make great figs that I want to buy. I would, however "boycott" a Prodos KS (under any name) as well as any other direct preorder scheme, as for the second edition here.
I suppose I could pretend this amounts to something righteous, such as punishing Prodos for screwing over other people. But all it honestly is, is common sense. I avoided getting screwed on the KS. I'm not about to now make the mistake that I previously avoided.
So here's what me buying AvP figs really means: I am willing to buy high quality sculpts, even from companies that I don't trust to deal with directly, if those sculpts are available through reputable discount retailers. Do I think our little community should tolerate that? Yes, heartily.
I think what you are saying is, I am actually sending Prodos the message that I don't care how they treat customers who do direct business with them. That's probably true. Prodos as a company and through its employees/representatives have proven to me that - at this point at least - only a fool would give them money directly in any kind of pre-order scenario. As someone who bailed on the KS, who didn't get fooled (this time at least) I can't say there were no reasons to suspect as much until X or Y months of delay. I suspected it during the KS, after all.
The other thing is, I don't think Prodos is a scam. It's a real company genuinely pursuing profitable manufacture/sales of quality miniatures. Neither has Prodos disclaimed what it owes to backers still waiting on rewards.
So another project that I did lose out on is RoboTech RPG Tactics. I got to play the game with the rewards that did arrive for that one. If I was playing it more often, I would buy more stuff for it at retail (especially in view of some of the discounts). Yeah I am critical of Palladium for all the delays - what may in fact be permanent delays - and deceit ... but I just don't see this as a morally relevant.
I am also okay with buying products from companies whose owners or management have different political views from me.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
Manchu wrote:So here's what me buying AvP figs really means: I am willing to buy high quality sculpts if they are available through reputable discount retailers. Do I think our little community should tolerate that? Yes, heartily.
For you it means that. But pulling back a bit, what your actions mean on a grander scale are:
Manchu wrote:that I don't care how they treat customers who do direct business with them.
If a company is so untrustworthy that, as you say, only a fool would pre-order with them, then supporting that company through purchasing their products is supporting their awful business practices in their entirety. You are helping to keep the lights on as they scheme to find another way to bilk people out of money.
You say Prodos isn't a scam because they have brought product to market, but they haven't fulfilled obligations to people who helped make those products a reality. How do you morally square that round hole? Weren't those people scammed? I mean, quite literally many of them, if they receive their pledges at all, will be receiving obsolete materials since the game is now moving on to a second edition. That smells scammy to me.
Again, I am not trying to encourage you one way or another on boycotting Prodos so I don't want these posts to be misconstrued. Supporting companies like Prodos is ultimately a personal decision each of us has to make in regards to which businesses we give our patronage to. I am merely commenting on a trend I have noticed is especially strong in our community and your post above was a good example of that. We gamers tend to get screwed over time and again by companies (sometimes the same companies) and yet, when those companies show a new green, or render, or make an announcement about an upcoming release, there is glee and almost immediate "forgiveness" for the transgressions those companies made in the past in the form of people rushing out to buy whatever new hotness is being dangled in front of them.
Anyway, the AVP figures are gorgeous and I wish they were produced by a less questionable company because I'd love to own some.
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Post by: Dark Severance
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:If a company is so untrustworthy that, as you say, only a fool would pre-order with them, then supporting that company through purchasing their products is supporting their awful business practices in their entirety. You are helping to keep the lights on as they scheme to find another way to bilk people out of money.
You say Prodos isn't a scam because they have brought product to market, but they haven't fulfilled obligations to people who helped make those products a reality. How do you morally square that round hole? Weren't those people scammed? I mean, quite literally many of them, if they receive their pledges at all, will be receiving obsolete materials since the game is now moving on to a second edition. That smells scammy to me.
It can be looked at from a point a view that doing business that benefits them, helps them keep the lights on. It can also be looked at that benefiting the company eventually means they will 'deliver' product to those that are still outstanding. Keep in mind that if they go under, no one gets anything ever again and there is never any chance for lost product to be 'delivered'.
It really comes down too... "Do you believe it was done with malicious intent?". There is a difference between poor business and management and someone deliberately scheming to just rip people off of money. Although this can be a fine line, we haven't quite gone into the "they just want to rip people off". Otherwise they could have easily done that with a few endeavors and then declared bankruptcy. That doesn't mean there aren't flags, but they aren't quite red flags as opposed as "buyer beware" yellow flags.
There are two big "unknowns" which contribute to this whole experience being "puzzling" for everyone. The main thing is, how many people are truly outstanding and awaiting product. Visiting the Facebook lawsuit page, there are 61 followers and 62 likes so does that mean that only 61-62 people are outstanding out of thousands or does that mean 123+, because that means either 5% is outstanding or it is higher. The other unknown is simply why they just haven't sent product out or emailed those involved to get everything settled... I mean they should have all the outstanding emails. We can make assumptions as to the reasons all night, but even those assumptions don't make any practical sense which makes the whole thing even more puzzling.
I happened to be a lucky person at least with my dealings with them. My Wave One stuff arrived from them directly, not through the US distribution. When they initially announced about Wave Two, stating that if people ordered something they would include the shipments... I scoffed. I wasn't about to give them anymore money towards AvP. After a couple weeks I gave in simply because it made more sense to pay $10 to get my stuff, instead of being stubborn and paying $0 and getting nothing. In between that time I had started getting into Warzone so ordering from them, I have never had any issues with my Warzone items. When I had bad casts, they quickly dispatched replacements. I wasn't about to buy anymore AvP stuff so instead I did order a couple Warzone miniatures that I would have bought retail otherwise. My Wave Two stuff came within a few weeks of that with my Warzone order. I also ordered some Unicast pieces because I wanted to samples of them to determine doing casting with them and that was when I received the rest of the 2.5 items that were missed in my initial Wave Two shipment.
That said... I won't pre-order through them, even though I have protection with my credit cards, it is just a hassle and I hate doing charge backs. If they go to retail, I'd probably buy retail to support the retail store not so much Prodos directly. I really like their Unicast items. I really want to product Unicast items because it is way cheaper than plastic but gives me the same quality if not better... but at this time I won't use them for casting until there is a better track record which may unfortunately be never.
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Post by: Manchu
DarkTraveler777 wrote:then supporting that company through purchasing their products is supporting their awful business practices in their entirety
Explicitly not. I don't trust Prodos to deliver a pre-order to me in what I consider to be a reasonable amount of time. So I don't pre-order things from them. This is the part of Prodos's business practices that I object to - this is the part I will not participate in. You seem to frame this issue in terms of guilt/forgiveness - but how am I in a position to forgive Prodos anything since they owe me nothing? For me, this is not a moral issue anyhow. The only questions are cost and risk. Gamers would lose less often if they thought about these things as morally neutral. DarkTraveler777 wrote:You are helping to keep the lights on as they scheme to find another way to bilk people out of money.
The premise is necessarily that Prodos exists to scam people and the evidence simply doesn't amount to that, if you set anger and righteousness aside. Another bad premise. As I explained, the evidence doesn't show Prodos could only bring AvP to market with KS "investment." In this case, as in so many other licensed-based projects, KS was a marketing tool and vehicle for pre-orders. This was a big consideration for me when I weighed the risks of backing the KS. Bogus. KS backers are due first edition product. None of the rewards are obsolete relative to the edition they backed. The appropriate complaint here is that the first edition rules are terrible, not that Prodos has since improved upon them. But frankly, I don't expect much from Prodos rules either way. I just want the minis!
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Yeah, I think Prodos has a terrible track record, but it seems like they're more negligent than actually scamming...
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Post by: Grot 6
"Do you believe it was done with malicious intent?" Yes I do.
I don't even believe they exist after the shell games that they have decided to play. They use other "Companies in name" to fund their gaff and continue to play games such as THIS one.
Negligent, AND scheming.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Hmm, that's a fair point. Shell companies don't speak to honesty, didn't notice/remember that part. Yep. "Scamming" sounds accurate.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
@Manchu all fair points, but as a consumer, we have the choice to fund or not and Prodos has not a good track record. Let's just say i will consider this when Space Crusade gets released
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Post by: CptJake
spiralingcadaver wrote:Hmm, that's a fair point. Shell companies don't speak to honesty, didn't notice/remember that part. Yep. "Scamming" sounds accurate.
Neither does plagiarizing other rules like they initially did with LOAD. Outright lies to backers and to KS also indicate more than just incompetence.
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Post by: rabidaskal
Yeah previously I'd be ready to give them the benefit of the doubt. As was said, incompetence and bad planning are much much more common than malice, so w/e its just toys. But that LOAD KS, swearing up and down that they were under strict NDA not to reveal the KS creator until AFTER the project funded.. . Such BS. Saying that they'd get into legal trouble if the creator were revealed, i.e. people should back off from probing who the creator was. . . They set out from the start to lie and conceal, it wasn't by accident, they planned it out.
In the end its a personal choice. Personally there's no way i can support a company like this.
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Post by: montanhas18
"Do you believe it was done with malicious intent?"
Some of it, yes. Clearly.
Keep in mind this wasn't a single situation or incident. Sometimes they lied with no malice, but in some situations they were clearly trying to screw KS backers.
Simple example:
You can't keep repeating no store will get any product until all backers get theirs and then do exactly that.
I understand they had to deliver to stores, contractually. I do. But they never said that.
They could've come out - honestly - and say "We have a set date to deliver to stores. We have to keep that date. We'll do our best to deliver to KS backers first. We're confident we can do it. But we MUST deliver to stores on that date, no matter what". And we found out because... someone walked into the local store, and there was AvP on the shelf.
This is not my opinion, it's fact. They did this. It's a very simple, clear, example of Prodos doing something that I doubt any customer would find acceptable.
I hope people dropping money into this pre-order won't go through the same situation. I - sadly - wouldn't find it surprisingly if someone is in here in a few weeks saying they paid for pre-order, still haven't received anything and their local store has the same product in stock.
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Post by: Ruin
SeanDrake wrote: MadCowCrazy wrote: lord_blackfang wrote: MadCowCrazy wrote: Elbows wrote:I'll admit I'm amazed people are still supporting this company.
People still support Mierce Miniatures even though they are owned by the guy who ran Maelstrom Games who scammed hundreds of people out of tens of thousands of pounds worth of product, me included...
And we'll never know if Maelstrom would have dug themselves out of debt, or if you personally would have received your order after they took money from someone's next order, if Wayland hadn't forced them into bankruptcy.
Wayland offered to honour every outstanding order that Maelstrom had as they offered to buy Maelstrom. Maelstrom refused so Wayland bought their debt and claimed it. Maelstrom pretty much liquidated everything so that Wayland would get nothing and in doing so also screwed over ALLOT of people.
So everyone would have gotten their orders if Maelstrom hadn't been so bitchy about it.
Also mealstrom were planning on screwing everyone long before Wayland intervened, you can trace the setup of Mierce and other shell companies months before they folded and also the sale of all rights and equipment from mealstrom to mierce for a nominal amount.
For the last months of business mealstrom were taking pre orders for stock they knew they could not get as suppliers ( GW for example) had started cutting them off.
There bussiness strategy for the last 12 months was to take pre orders and use that money to buy stock for the previous set of pre orders and then take more pre orders to pay for those pre orders. They at some point hit a tipping point with not enough cash to honour the pre orders taken at that point the sales started in a desperate bid.to claw back some cash.(Sound familiar)
It was in the middle of all that when mealstrom was asset stripped by the managment to other companies in family members names as well.as his(according to one staff member the boss cleared his mortgage) hard to be certain where it ended as no financials werel reported for the final years and I missed the court hearing.
This sounds familiar. Better go ask Carlo Ponzi...
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Post by: jreilly89
What a mess. Sucks to everyone currently getting stiffed over this
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Post by: Vhalan
DarkTraveler777 wrote:An argument could be made that in a community as small as ours some solidarity among customers to shun bad vendors is another lesson that should be learned in a situation such as this to prevent more bad practices in the future.
While this is neat in theory, Id like to point out the Defiance Games Hard Suit KS that raised 46k. Several people from this board mentioned 'throwing their money away' by backing it ... then realized they literally did just that.
We, as a community, are not and never will be united on anything. KS is a platform where you get to risk your $$ for potential discounted rewards. The correct use of the platform is for places like Dakka to find out when an incomplete KS operator tries to run another one. Risk mitigation based on track record is what the community should offer but its up to the individual to make the decision to back or not back a project. I think we are seeing the Golden Age of KS has passed in that new projects are viewed much more critically. Yes, we still get runaway Kingdom Death style ones and small reputable operates are able to fund a dozen minis at a time as part of their range. Its the small operators slowly building a range and a world that are the most exciting to me.
Operators like Prodos who have run several delayed/incomplete projects will find it harder and harder to get new funds leading them to either change their business practices or go out of business.
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Post by: jreilly89
Vhalan wrote: DarkTraveler777 wrote:An argument could be made that in a community as small as ours some solidarity among customers to shun bad vendors is another lesson that should be learned in a situation such as this to prevent more bad practices in the future.
While this is neat in theory, Id like to point out the Defiance Games Hard Suit KS that raised 46k. Several people from this board mentioned 'throwing their money away' by backing it ... then realized they literally did just that.
We, as a community, are not and never will be united on anything. KS is a platform where you get to risk your $$ for potential discounted rewards. The correct use of the platform is for places like Dakka to find out when an incomplete KS operator tries to run another one. Risk mitigation based on track record is what the community should offer but its up to the individual to make the decision to back or not back a project. I think we are seeing the Golden Age of KS has passed in that new projects are viewed much more critically. Yes, we still get runaway Kingdom Death style ones and small reputable operates are able to fund a dozen minis at a time as part of their range. Its the small operators slowly building a range and a world that are the most exciting to me.
Operators like Prodos who have run several delayed/incomplete projects will find it harder and harder to get new funds leading them to either change their business practices or go out of business.
I think it depends. Boardgames have seen lots of success via KS, I personally own a couple and a couple graphic novels that were funded via KS. However, I think you're right: it's still a risk platform more than a store, and people need to treat it as such. Want the game but don't want to back it? Wait until it hits retail, ofcourse you may hit the snag Scythe is running into: it's so popular that they're running out left and right once it hits stores.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
Manchu wrote: DarkTraveler777 wrote:then supporting that company through purchasing their products is supporting their awful business practices in their entirety
Explicitly not. I don't trust Prodos to deliver a pre-order to me in what I consider to be a reasonable amount of time. So I don't pre-order things from them. This is the part of Prodos's business practices that I object to - this is the part I will not participate in. You seem to frame this issue in terms of guilt/forgiveness - but how am I in a position to forgive Prodos anything since they owe me nothing? For me, this is not a moral issue anyhow. The only questions are cost and risk. Gamers would lose less often if they thought about these things as morally neutral.
I don't accept that. I understand that is your justification, but you giving Prodos money condones their business practices. All of their business practices. It is a moral issue because the company is doing real harm to some of their customers. That you have gotten lucky in your past purchases, or found methods of avoiding the major *known* risks of dealing with Prodos is beside the point. Your monies funnel back to a company that has shown a repeated behavior of failing to fulfill their obligations.
Manchu wrote: DarkTraveler777 wrote:You are helping to keep the lights on as they scheme to find another way to bilk people out of money.
The premise is necessarily that Prodos exists to scam people and the evidence simply doesn't amount to that, if you set anger and righteousness aside.
Please stop assigning "righteousness and anger" to my position. I have no anger as I have not dealt with Prodos and haven't been victimized by them. My concern in this matter is larger than Prodos, and centers entirely on the behaviors of a community that can justify mistreatment by vendors out of pure self-interest.
Prodos exists to make money for Prodos, and they have continued to do that through mismanaging various Kickstarters, some under the guise of different companies. Does that seem like the behavior of a legitimate business? Or does that more closely resemble the behavior of scammers who, when they have burned enough bridges, regroup under another persona in order obfuscate their connections to their previous bad dealings?
Manchu wrote:Another bad premise. As I explained, the evidence doesn't show Prodos could only bring AvP to market with KS "investment." In this case, as in so many other licensed-based projects, KS was a marketing tool and vehicle for pre-orders.
False. "Kickstarter isn't a preorder system" right? I can't seem to access the KS page at the moment, but surely there were stretch goals unlocked and components added that would not have been funded without Kickstarter. I can't believe you are actually making this argument.
Manchu wrote:Bogus. KS backers are due first edition product. None of the rewards are obsolete relative to the edition they backed. The appropriate complaint here is that the first edition rules are terrible, not that Prodos has since improved upon them. But frankly, I don't expect much from Prodos rules either way. I just want the minis!
And this. This is priceless. This is the same crappy argument people make when GW releases a new edition and people complain. Then someone steps in and says, rather haughtily, " GW isn't taking away your models, you can still play the old edition!" knowing full well that games grow and thrive on their current editions and obsolete editions are relegated to discount bins and die hards who try and keep an old edition relevant.
You just want the minis so the obsolete rules don't affect you. However, people who paid for product years ago (including the rules that are now obsolete) are going to be getting outdated materials if they get their materials at all. How is that possibly a good thing for those backers? And how is that even remotely a responsible course of action for a company to take in their treatment of those backers with outstanding pledges? Yes the minis can be used in second edition, but so what? If a backer paid for first edition and still hasn't received it and second edition is coming out then that is a colossal disaster on the company's part.
That is the type of company you are supporting with your purchases regardless of the mental gymnastics you undertake to try and pretend otherwise.
Vhalan wrote: DarkTraveler777 wrote:An argument could be made that in a community as small as ours some solidarity among customers to shun bad vendors is another lesson that should be learned in a situation such as this to prevent more bad practices in the future.
While this is neat in theory, Id like to point out the Defiance Games Hard Suit KS that raised 46k. Several people from this board mentioned 'throwing their money away' by backing it ... then realized they literally did just that.
Operators like Prodos who have run several delayed/incomplete projects will find it harder and harder to get new funds leading them to either change their business practices or go out of business.
I understand that community action to prevent these bad actors is a pipe dream. People are motivated by selfish desires and will buy what they want regardless, however what you posted above is exactly the behavior that I have been commenting on. Gamers willingly lining up to support companies that show utter disregard for the community in general and their own customers in particular. As my orange president would say, Sad!
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Post by: RiTides
We already have a thread for discussion of the original AvP kickstarter (link is in the first post) which I actually backed.
However, while referencing it is of course fine and even welcome in this thread as it's extremely relevant, if this thread is just going to duplicate that one this thread will just be locked.
It's certainly worthwhile to discuss the new edition, and sales from it will likely help with finishing their KS obligations. So basically, feel free to discuss from whatever perspective you like, but be civil and allow others to talk about the new edition as well, as that is the topic of this thread.
Thanks all
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Post by: jreilly89
So, for someone who never backed the original and disregarding all the KIS drama, would this be worth picking up?
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Post by: CptJake
 jreilly89 wrote:So, for someone who never backed the original and disregarding all the KIS drama, would this be worth picking up?
It could be. I would wait for it to actually be released and perhaps wait until you could download the rules before purchasing.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
spiralingcadaver wrote:Yeah, I think Prodos has a terrible track record, but it seems like they're more negligent than actually scamming...
I fully believe that negligence contributed to a cash-flow shortage which required them to go to market with their retail version before fulfilling Kickstarter pledges so that they could keep the doors open.
That excuse ran out at least a year or two ago. Kickstarter backers should have gotten their products by now, even if that meant Prodos had to delay other projects.
There's really no reasonable excuse for the way they have treated the customers that basically provided them the venture capital to launch the AvP product line, with no other expected ROI than just "getting the stuff they ordered".
I've been a big critic of the "Boycott Culture" where economic damage is inflicted on otherwise innocent third parties. Like that ridiculously stupid Uber boycott a few weeks ago because they had the gall to pick up customers from the airport during a taxi strike without price-gouging them with Surge rates. Uber was an innocent party in all that (and if you disagree, PM me, and I will give you the long-form explanation of why you are completely wrong based on market share and potential revenue gains vs potential revenue losses). Uber provided a service to its customers and acted ethically at all points, but was boycotted by foolish people jumping on a bandwagon that was started by people who apparently have no understanding of math, and no contextual knowledge of the ride sharing industry. They were just mad at someone else, and decided to punish an uninvolved third party.
But Prodos has earned its boycott through clearly unethical business practices. It's not even up for discussion whether or not Prodos has acted unethically. And I'm not even one of the Kickstarter backers who didn't get their stuff. I just recognize a bad business when I see one.
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Post by: ced1106
jreilly89 wrote:So, for someone who never backed the original and disregarding all the KIS drama, would this be worth picking up?
I haven't read anything positive about their game rules, AvP or otherwise. They abandoned the first version of their AvP game rules, and subsumed AvP into their Warzone rules, but didn't support 3-player games (Aliens, Predators, and Marines).
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Post by: Manchu
To clarify - the moral/ethical/practical consideration of Prodos's outstanding obligations to first edition KS backers is obviously relevant to the topic of Prodos releasing a second edition.
@DarkTraveller777
We can agree that Prodos has a moral obligation to fulfill its end of its contract with its KS backers. I think where we differ is that you seem to see this obligation as morally owed to the entire "community" of miniatures gamers, whereas I see it more narrowly owed only to the backers themselves as individual parties to individual contracts with Prodos. In essence, I think you are positing a moral right to honest dealing owed to the entire community, which in turns implicates a moral duty on the part of the community to reward honest companies and punish dishonest ones, via "supporting" or boycotting them. In this scenario, the dollar becomes the instrument of moral justification/damnation. The idea is to threaten Prodos with annihilation in order to persuade them to straighten up. The assumption seems to be that they will not straighten up otherwise.
By contrast, I believe the individual is the proper subject of these moral rights and duties. No duty as to me can arise from Prodos dealing unfairly with someone else. (You can probably guess, I am extremely skeptical of the concept of the "community.") For me, Prodos's bad dealings with others are simply data points for analyzing risk. For me, the point of spending money on a figure is not to reward "good" companies or condone the practices of "bad" companies - it's just to get the figure. I also don't believe that Prodos's mission is to rip people off and that they will do exactly that unless the "community" punishes them. I think their mission is to profitably manufacture and sell miniatures. Part of this plan involves pre-order schemes - but the data indicates participating is too risky for me (especially considering there is no countervailing discount in this case). So I am not going to pre-order ...
... and importantly, I would also warn others not to pre-order second edition purely because all the evidence points to this being imprudent. I guess this is the closest I get to believing in the miniatures gamer "community" - I think it is important that people have the facts so that they can make informed decisions. If the facts result in some group of customers trying to organize a boycott to punish Prodos for immorality ... well this is just market risk. Similarly, if the facts also lead customers to avoid giving Prodos pre-order dollars ... it's just market risk. Prodos will have to either survive without pre-order dollars or convince customers that direct pre-orders are not risky, despite their ongoing failure to send out backer rewards and deliver past pre-orders. Obviously, one way to do it is to finally deliver those rewards and pre-orders ...
Maybe it goes without saying, but I would like to see Prodos succeed in offering high quality, competitively priced miniatures. (That generic, self-interested well-wishing applies to all miniatures manufactures.) I don't buy AvP figures from Wayland because I want to "support" Prodos, however - I buy them because I want the figures and am willing to pay a certain price for them and I trust Wayland to get them in stock or refund my money.
So when AvP second edition makes it to retail, I don't agree that it must be boycotted. But I really doubt it will be worth much, other than the figures (which as single-piece miniatures are not as interesting to me, honestly).
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Post by: Sheck2
jreilly89 wrote:So, for someone who never backed the original and disregarding all the KIS drama, would this be worth picking up?
Yes. I was not part of the KS, but picked up the game retail. Everything but the rules was excellent, but their new rules edition (free to download) fixed that. So yes, if you ignore the KS debacle, I would recommend AvP.
Personally I am waiting to order it from a known retailer for all the reasons stated...plus there seems no benefit to pre-order (and their shipping cost to the US, and therefore total cost, actually might be higher than ordering from Wayland).
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Post by: Grot 6
jreilly89 wrote:So, for someone who never backed the original and disregarding all the KIS drama, would this be worth picking up?
From Prodos- NO. From a third party company, or someone who has the product on hand- Yes- If you are in the mood to get caught up in drama. 20th Century Fox is interested, but large organizations run slow on the uptick. Hopeful that another established company can get the IP and actually do some good with it.
PRODOS has no business running preorder platforms, and the evidence is all there to be researched as to why, and how they have lost their character by being cute by playing fast and loose.
I read through Mancu's post and partially agree, but in looking at all the evidence together, I can see how you don't seem to have all of the information, and haven't been involved in the whole Prodos/ Archon/ "Your name of the week for the business here" as they have a well documented history of already pulled this crap...
http://prodosgames.com/
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08373380
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/vanguard-of-war-archon-studio?ref=nav_search
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game?ref=discovery
http://loadboardgame.com/
With this little tidbit added in to stick it right in your face-
" There are two major challenges when it comes to fulfilling our obligation to backers. The first is miniature production and the other is shipping.
Our manufacturer helped us make the miniatures happen. Their experience was invaluable in the process and we are left with only the final step, mass production, which can begin as soon as the Kickstarter ends. All of the hiccups and delays that can happen prior to mass production have already been successfully dealt with.
We did our homework. Now, it’s time to make this dream a reality!"
LOAD kickstarter
"AVP The Hunt Begins Kickstarter" Removed, AFTER receiving funding, and then slowly they backed away from it.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1275451/ip-dispute
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1732647/hunt-begins-second-edition
http://prodosgames.com/blog/announcing-avp-the-hunt-begins-second-edition-and-avp-unleashed
http://ninjadivision.com/alien-vs-predator-the-hunt-begins/
https://www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd/
If you will notice, they CONTINUE to shill. Acting like a company doesn't make them any less criminal. ANyone else is quite welcome to throw the cards on the table with this one.
To leave it on a high note- FOX has a real "Alien: Covenant" Movie that will be coming out in MAY of this year.
Enjoy the trailer, and remember that it is Alien's stuff that we like, even if PRODOS wants to take a Xenomorph sized crap on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VW6sg50Pk
One of my pals showed me THIS as well, Enjoy-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VW6sg50Pk
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Post by: RiTides
We're getting a little far afield, but the Load board game delivered just fine. I split a pledge for it, and the models are just like the pictures. Pretty darn good for the price.
The company definitely has gotten better at following through, hopefully they'll make good on their original customers, too.
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Post by: Joyboozer
Following through as in actually delivering? Or followed through as in farted then shat?
I'm pretty sure it's actually the second one.
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Post by: RiTides
Joyboozer, you did read the first line of my post, right
The models from Load are really good for the price - I've got a pic where I'm holding one that I'll try to post. Doesn't mean you should forget their history, but if you preorder this new AvP edition via PayPal you can easily get your money back if they don't deliver.
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Post by: -Loki-
I like the look of this. I'd never pre-order given Prodos reputation, but a local stockist is getting it with a pretty nice discount. I'd gladly buy this if I see it on the shelf, maybe even with a few of the expansion packs like the Predalien and facehuggers for some variety.
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Post by: Ctaylor
Not going to pre-order, but will check out the rulebook and/or let's play videos. If it's good and my FLGS gets it stock, may pick it up then. I have fond memories of playing AvP on the Atari Jaguar.
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Post by: Panic
Yeah,
Let's not forget that Prodos hate Dakkanauts and said we are a cestpit of bile...
Obviously they said these things after they charmed our pants off and took our money.
So now we have no pants, no money and no AVPs....
Why are they not here right now answering questions?
Any other company would be here right now answering questions?
Panic...
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Post by: ced1106
 Ctaylor wrote:Not going to pre-order, but will check out the rulebook and/or let's play videos. If it's good and my FLGS gets it stock, may pick it up then. I have fond memories of playing AvP on the Atari Jaguar.
When in doubt, slap a skin on it.
"The wargame rules have great potential to expand gameplay for AVP. The rules are smart, well organized, and perfectly suited to bring AVP to the tabletop. However, the BETA rules fall short in all the areas where it counts: 1. The rules don’t directly support three player games, 2. The rules share nothing meaningful with the boardgame, 3. Missions lack an appropriate theme; and until an AVP version is released, resource cards and the Advanced Combat Deck will suffer from the same thing."
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1706984/wargame-rules-beta-depth-review
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Post by: CptJake
 RiTides wrote:We're getting a little far afield, but the Load board game delivered just fine. I split a pledge for it, and the models are just like the pictures. Pretty darn good for the price.
The company definitely has gotten better at following through, hopefully they'll make good on their original customers, too.
Better? Then they offered Space Crusade for pre-order with delivery in the summer of 2016...
So 1 for 2 success for their efforts in that time frame.
Not really 'better' in my book.
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Post by: 455_PWR
So glad I passed on avp in its final seconds of the ks... The minis looked great, they look of great quality, but it sucks to see fellow hobbyists who don't have their product several years later. Not a big deal if they put backers first and deliver, like kingdom death. It is a big deal when the company continues to make other projects, take orders from each, and not totally deliver on any of the projects. This almost makes it appear they are borrowing from "Peter to pay paul" if you get my drift.
I actually prefer the first edition minis. They were less cluttered, and they added alot to the hobby (basing, assembly, customizing, etc). These look overcrowded. Maybe folks will be selling their 1st edition sets for cheap. If prodos releases an update kit, I may still be interested in a 1st edition retail set. The 2nd edition sets look nice for board gamers, who won't paint their minis, don't want to assemble them, etc.
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Post by: Grot 6
I have the KS stuff that I received up in the Sell/ trade area of the forum- All you need and a bag of chips. (Shameless self promotion and bikini clad dancers)
$350.00 USD You get the head, the tail, the whole damn thing... 
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Post by: nagash42
I got all my pledge so far barring cloaked preds because they are not finished yet. There are ways to get your stuff which they have posted time and again
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Post by: mrondeau
nagash42 wrote:I got all my pledge so far barring cloaked preds because they are not finished yet. There are ways to get your stuff which they have posted time and again
Well, I got absolutely nothing, so...
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Post by: Joyboozer
mrondeau wrote:nagash42 wrote:I got all my pledge so far barring cloaked preds because they are not finished yet. There are ways to get your stuff which they have posted time and again
Well, I got absolutely nothing, so...
Well, as nagash42 suggested, that's totally your fault!
In the normal world, I am well aware it's totally not you fault, it's disgusting you should have to jump through hoops to get your stuff.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
nagash42 wrote:I got all my pledge so far barring cloaked preds because they are not finished yet. There are ways to get your stuff which they have posted time and again
Yes, if you give them more money they may or may not actually send the stuff you paid for years ago. What a deal!
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Post by: RiTides
That's enough back and forth, please - let's stick to discussion of news and rumors relating to AvP or the companies involved in it...
Thanks all
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Got my Pre order from Produs today and I must say I am very impressed and happy with everything I've seen. All the miniatures come in a bespoke foam so it's all very tidy. Card stock is nice and thick by the look of it and if the models I have here are a standard example of UNICAST then I have found my favourite material. The figures are all one piece which are as detailed as resin with undercuts and not a single miscast or a single mole line in sight, makes me look forward to the UNICAST miniatures for the relic knights game. This was my first order via Produs Games and will be happy to order from them again!
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Post by: CptJake
A few folks on BGG reported getting multiple broken figures, even with the foam insert.
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Mine have been perfectly fine !!
51394
Post by: judgedoug
CptJake wrote:A few folks on BGG reported getting multiple broken figures, even with the foam insert.
Where at? I can't find much discussion at all in the AVP forums.
4402
Post by: CptJake
 judgedoug wrote: CptJake wrote:A few folks on BGG reported getting multiple broken figures, even with the foam insert.
Where at? I can't find much discussion at all in the AVP forums.
A couple different guys mention it in the comments of the image here: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3480051/alien-vs-predator-hunt-begins
I thought I read a couple similar comments somewhere in the forums but may be mistaken.
66741
Post by: ced1106
LOAD boardgame had some broken mini's. I guess Prodos is still finding out what miniatures they can and cannot make with the Unicast technology (eg. how thin parts can be on a miniature).
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/195547/load-league-ancient-defenders/forums/0
34242
Post by: -Loki-
Normally you'd think a company would do significant R&D when they claim to have found the second coming of resin casting technology before rushing it to production...
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
 -Loki- wrote:
Normally you'd think a company would do significant R&D when they claim to have found the second coming of resin casting technology before rushing it to production...
Well Prodos isn't exactly a bastion of truth, morality and integrity.
53523
Post by: Sining
It's not even that. Some parts are just easily broken. Like Jasco ( http://www.miniaturemarket.com/pic101716.html). When I got her, her rifle part was broken in the packaging. Prodos sent out another part to me and that was fine.
It really depends on how carefully the mail handles the packages and it's got nothing to do with the technology.
4402
Post by: CptJake
Sining wrote:It's not even that. Some parts are just easily broken. Like Jasco ( http://www.miniaturemarket.com/pic101716.html). When I got her, her rifle part was broken in the packaging. Prodos sent out another part to me and that was fine. It really depends on how carefully the mail handles the packages and it's got nothing to do with the technology.
I don't buy that for a minute. When you ship the minis in a custom for tray (like they did for LOAD and are for AvP v2) it is either piss poor quality control, gakky design, or a combination of the two to have one set with 3-5 broken figures as folks are reporting. Especially as both those games are marketed towards board gamers who expect figures robust enough to use and thought they were getting one piece figures in one piece. The cost to send out the replacements alone is reason enough to unfuck themselves and design figures that can survive being shipped in a custom foam tray and/or use a material which resists breakage.
53523
Post by: Sining
It's up to you to decide what you want to believe. By your logic, when you pack miniatures in foam bags and bring it on aeroplanes, no one should have ever broken any miniatures before?
I mean, this is resin we're talking about, not boardgame plastic.
There's a certain degree of 'this is prodos fault' that can be expected but you're basically blaming them for resin being more fragile than boardgame plastic (for some reason as if this is specifically their fault) and handling issues.
4402
Post by: CptJake
No, I'm blaming them for poor quality control and marketing boardgames with materials and/or designs which do not stand up to shipping to customers.
53523
Post by: Sining
So...you've never had something break in transit to you before? I've ordered stuff from puppetswar before and I received it broken in the package, should I blame them for making products with materials that can't stand up to shipping to customers as well? Mantic as well.
I mean, they advertise it as Resin and you are getting resin. And as far as I know, they're replacing the parts that are broken.
Sounds like you're just complaining for the sound of complaining
63118
Post by: SeanDrake
Sining wrote:So...you've never had something break in transit to you before? I've ordered stuff from puppetswar before and I received it broken in the package, should I blame them for making products with materials that can't stand up to shipping to customers as well? Mantic as well.
I mean, they advertise it as Resin and you are getting resin. And as far as I know, they're replacing the parts that are broken.
Sounds like you're just complaining for the sound of complaining
Given that Prodos are dishonest con artists with the integrity and morality of a 3 dollar whore, that are run/owned by a proven liar who has only a passing acquaintance with the truth/reality, you can see why giving the the benefit of the doubt would be a bit silly.
20522
Post by: crazyK
I picked up a copy at Adepticon. Perfectly fine as well.
25897
Post by: Smellingsalts
I feel for all you guys that got screwed by Prodos. It is obvious that they must be having financial problems. I do think that this second edition is a good thing though. Right now Ninja Division is selling AVP 2nd edition, so I don't know if they just have the rights to distribute it, or it is a collaboration, or if they just own Prodos outright. I hope it is a sign of things to come.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
Smellingsalts wrote:I feel for all you guys that got screwed by Prodos. It is obvious that they must be having financial problems. I do think that this second edition is a good thing though. Right now Ninja Division is selling AVP 2nd edition, so I don't know if they just have the rights to distribute it, or it is a collaboration, or if they just own Prodos outright. I hope it is a sign of things to come.
Don't count on it. Like has been suggested- Avoid them at all costs. As of now, it is a Nemesis Plot about the inner workings of Prodos/ Ninja Division/Name of the Month shell company here. They go through "Company names" like you go through socks at this point.
58858
Post by: overtyrant
 Grot 6 wrote:Smellingsalts wrote:I feel for all you guys that got screwed by Prodos. It is obvious that they must be having financial problems. I do think that this second edition is a good thing though. Right now Ninja Division is selling AVP 2nd edition, so I don't know if they just have the rights to distribute it, or it is a collaboration, or if they just own Prodos outright. I hope it is a sign of things to come.
Don't count on it. Like has been suggested- Avoid them at all costs. As of now, it is a Nemesis Plot about the inner workings of Prodos/ Ninja Division/Name of the Month shell company here. They go through "Company names" like you go through socks at this point.
I thought Ninja Division were part of Soda Pop Miniatures?
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
They are,
and Soda Pop are the US distributor for Prodos which is why they're selling the AvP stuff (and will presumably be selling Load etc when it hits general release)
4402
Post by: CptJake
Sining wrote:So...you've never had something break in transit to you before? I've ordered stuff from puppetswar before and I received it broken in the package, should I blame them for making products with materials that can't stand up to shipping to customers as well? Mantic as well. I mean, they advertise it as Resin and you are getting resin. And as far as I know, they're replacing the parts that are broken. Sounds like you're just complaining for the sound of complaining
Really? Here is what they are advertising on their web shop: MORE INFO
This is Pre-Order - shipping starts 17th of March.
In the darkness of uncharted space aboard the crippled colony vessel "USCSS Theseus" there is nowhere to hide, nowhere to run, and in space, everyone will hear you scream!
“The Hunt Begins” Is a fast-paced, claustrophobic, “express elevator to hell” Miniature game of combat between three of the most dangerous races in the galaxy.
Join the ranks of the brave men and women of the US Colonial Marines and arm yourself with state-of-the-art weaponry or take command of the elite cadre of Predators, an alien race of hunters that seek the finest prey to stalk, hunt, and eliminate. The darkness holds more horrors than these two adversaries… The Xenomorphs, one of the deadliest of all known alien species with the potential to destroy and eradicate all sentient life.
“The Hunt Begins” offers two challenging game modes, which can be played by one or more players. The first of which is Competitive, in which all races battle against one another in mission and objective based combat. The second is Cooperative: A fragile alliance has been drawn between the Marines and the Predators, neither of which can survive alone against the Alien threat.
The motion tracker is off the scale, The prey is approaching, and a Queen seeks fresh hosts to birth her children!
Only YOU can decide who survives the USCSS Theseus!
Second Edition features:
REDESIGNED MINIATURES
All models have received fresh design and looks. Characters are more dynamic now and we are introducing built-in terrain bases as well.
IMPROVED RULESET
Second Edition of AVP contains all the patches and erratas we have collected over last year of testing and collecting feedback.
THE LAST STAND MODE
You can play with your fiends in cooperative way using The Last Stand Mode from First Edition. Aim of the game is simple - destroy Spawning Points of Xenomorphs, while Horde of Aliens is trying to do what they do best. Horde is controlled by The Game, while your brave Marines Squad or Predator Pack are controlled by players
PACKAGING
AVP Second Edition is now in different box, in a square shape, instead of rectangular one. It will fit stacks of your favorite board games perfectly and it's much easier to handle now.
MINIATURES ARE UNICAST NOW
Biggest improvement has been done with models - you can place them on board straight from the box! No assembling required, no gluing, no cutters - just open a game and play!
PROTECTIVE FOAM INSERT FOR MODELS
After you finish playing, you can assembly the game and put models back into the box without any risk of damaging them. All this thanks to protective foam we have used for miniatures.
REVAMPED ARTWORK
We have spent a lot of time improving our assets, which results in new design of tiles, we are using for a game.
Models:
- 10 Infant Aliens
- 5 Stalker Aliens
- 3 Predators
- 5 Colonial Marines
Dice: 3 D20 Dice
Cards:
- 2 Alien Stat Cards
- 3 Predator Stat Cards
- 5 Colonial Marine Stat Card
- 20 Environmental Cards
- 20 Mission Cards
- 60 Strategy Cards (20 for each Faction)
Board game Tiles:
- 14 Straight Corridors
- 12 Crossroads
- 8 T-Shape
- 8 L-Shape
- 12 Dead-end
- 12 Air Vent Tiles
- 5 Rooms (Escape Pod / Laboratory, Armoury, Bridge, Hibernation Room and Engine Room)
Other Peripherals:
- 116 Wound, Ping!, Activated, Sentry, Hide and Objective Tokens
- 12 Door Tiles
REVIEWS
No customer reviews for the moment.
http://shop.prodosgames.com/home/291-avp-the-hunt-begins-second-edition.html I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, can you point out where they state the figures are resin? All I can see is they are Unicast, and that the foam tray protects them. Ask folks who play board games what their interpretation of that is gonna be, and how they'll feel when they get a handful of broken figures and worry about the long term durability of the figures as board game pieces. Automatically Appended Next Post: And again, GOOD figure design would mitigate against material issues. Alternatively, better material choice would mitigate against breakage. As for complaining, no. I'm just pointing out Jarek and crew have delivered broken figs, and it seems relatively common among folks who got LOAD and AvP 2nd ed judging by posts on BGG. I had originally posted I heard folks were getting busted figures, and when asked I provided the source for that. To me to seems pretty evident that between design and material, Jarek and crew have an issue. Knowing they've used the excuse of cash flow problems to avoid sending KS backers their goods, I pointed out that these self inflicted errors are going to cost them. When single piece castings made for board games don't stand up well to shipping, there is a problem (ask the board game community). This is not complaining, it is pointing out evidence based opinion. If another company sends out a broken figure, it does nothing to detract from my point
66741
Post by: ced1106
My guess is that Prodos is may sometimes be pushing the Unicast technology with miniatures that cannot be made with conventional plastic (usually because of undercuts). While this means greater detail than plastic, it can also mean miniatures with sculpts that haven't been test post-production, such as thin swords and staves.
Prodos *does* have a history of poorer QA, such as not replacing the molds as they wear out. However, I haven't read posts on BGG about such issues. Here's a comment by a small company Mr. Lee's Mini's from May 2016. I haven't read anything that said that Prodos' QA has improved or gotten worse, so if anyone has such a posting, please post! : https://quirkworthy.com/2016/05/05/casting-cost-falls/
53523
Post by: Sining
CptJake wrote:Sining wrote:So...you've never had something break in transit to you before? I've ordered stuff from puppetswar before and I received it broken in the package, should I blame them for making products with materials that can't stand up to shipping to customers as well? Mantic as well.
I mean, they advertise it as Resin and you are getting resin. And as far as I know, they're replacing the parts that are broken.
Sounds like you're just complaining for the sound of complaining
Really?
Here is what they are advertising on their web shop:
MORE INFO
This is Pre-Order - shipping starts 17th of March.
In the darkness of uncharted space aboard the crippled colony vessel "USCSS Theseus" there is nowhere to hide, nowhere to run, and in space, everyone will hear you scream!
“The Hunt Begins” Is a fast-paced, claustrophobic, “express elevator to hell” Miniature game of combat between three of the most dangerous races in the galaxy.
Join the ranks of the brave men and women of the US Colonial Marines and arm yourself with state-of-the-art weaponry or take command of the elite cadre of Predators, an alien race of hunters that seek the finest prey to stalk, hunt, and eliminate. The darkness holds more horrors than these two adversaries… The Xenomorphs, one of the deadliest of all known alien species with the potential to destroy and eradicate all sentient life.
“The Hunt Begins” offers two challenging game modes, which can be played by one or more players. The first of which is Competitive, in which all races battle against one another in mission and objective based combat. The second is Cooperative: A fragile alliance has been drawn between the Marines and the Predators, neither of which can survive alone against the Alien threat.
The motion tracker is off the scale, The prey is approaching, and a Queen seeks fresh hosts to birth her children!
Only YOU can decide who survives the USCSS Theseus!
Second Edition features:
REDESIGNED MINIATURES
All models have received fresh design and looks. Characters are more dynamic now and we are introducing built-in terrain bases as well.
IMPROVED RULESET
Second Edition of AVP contains all the patches and erratas we have collected over last year of testing and collecting feedback.
THE LAST STAND MODE
You can play with your fiends in cooperative way using The Last Stand Mode from First Edition. Aim of the game is simple - destroy Spawning Points of Xenomorphs, while Horde of Aliens is trying to do what they do best. Horde is controlled by The Game, while your brave Marines Squad or Predator Pack are controlled by players
PACKAGING
AVP Second Edition is now in different box, in a square shape, instead of rectangular one. It will fit stacks of your favorite board games perfectly and it's much easier to handle now.
MINIATURES ARE UNICAST NOW
Biggest improvement has been done with models - you can place them on board straight from the box! No assembling required, no gluing, no cutters - just open a game and play!
PROTECTIVE FOAM INSERT FOR MODELS
After you finish playing, you can assembly the game and put models back into the box without any risk of damaging them. All this thanks to protective foam we have used for miniatures.
REVAMPED ARTWORK
We have spent a lot of time improving our assets, which results in new design of tiles, we are using for a game.
Models:
- 10 Infant Aliens
- 5 Stalker Aliens
- 3 Predators
- 5 Colonial Marines
Dice: 3 D20 Dice
Cards:
- 2 Alien Stat Cards
- 3 Predator Stat Cards
- 5 Colonial Marine Stat Card
- 20 Environmental Cards
- 20 Mission Cards
- 60 Strategy Cards (20 for each Faction)
Board game Tiles:
- 14 Straight Corridors
- 12 Crossroads
- 8 T-Shape
- 8 L-Shape
- 12 Dead-end
- 12 Air Vent Tiles
- 5 Rooms (Escape Pod / Laboratory, Armoury, Bridge, Hibernation Room and Engine Room)
Other Peripherals:
- 116 Wound, Ping!, Activated, Sentry, Hide and Objective Tokens
- 12 Door Tiles
REVIEWS
No customer reviews for the moment.
http://shop.prodosgames.com/home/291-avp-the-hunt-begins-second-edition.html
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, can you point out where they state the figures are resin? All I can see is they are Unicast, and that the foam tray protects them. Ask folks who play board games what their interpretation of that is gonna be, and how they'll feel when they get a handful of broken figures and worry about the long term durability of the figures as board game pieces.
If you want to be pedantic, I'd point out they only state the figures are redesigned and not in a new material. So...what was the original AVP in then?
And again, GOOD figure design would mitigate against material issues. Alternatively, better material choice would mitigate against breakage.
As for complaining, no. I'm just pointing out Jarek and crew have delivered broken figs, and it seems relatively common among folks who got LOAD and AvP 2nd ed judging by posts on BGG. I had originally posted I heard folks were getting busted figures, and when asked I provided the source for that. To me to seems pretty evident that between design and material, Jarek and crew have an issue. Knowing they've used the excuse of cash flow problems to avoid sending KS backers their goods, I pointed out that these self inflicted errors are going to cost them. When single piece castings made for board games don't stand up well to shipping, there is a problem (ask the board game community). This is not complaining, it is pointing out evidence based opinion. If another company sends out a broken figure, it does nothing to detract from my point
I'm pointing out that resin figures do break in transit. It's not some conspiracy by Prodos to purposely deliver resin figures broken and then replace them. As for alternative material choice, Prodos does resin. I don't think it even does anything else. Are you suggesting they use even more capital then to start up new manufacturing lines?
Would better design help? Yes, if you want to get super thick pole arms and rifles stocks. But even then, it's not 100% certain they won't break in the mail. I mean, if you've got some super miraculous method to ensure you 100% never get broken resin miniatures in the mail, you should share it with the rest of the world. Automatically Appended Next Post: To clarify, I'm not saying anything about whether Prodos has poor QC or whether they deliver or not. But when you're blaming them specifically for receiving broken resin figures when it's probably a transport issue (unless you think they're sending you broken resin figures on purpose), then I think you're just looking to complain.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
It's not a question of the product quality- it is a question of the Prodos /Archeon /Whatever the company name of the week is. They have an absolutely GAK poor performance model of a business plan. It might be business as usual in Poland, but in the rest of the world, the practice of lies, doublespeak, diffusion and doubletalk is frowned upon.
The fact that people are still out on a limb after all this time is gak. That "Prodos" stoops to act like that everyone else is unreasonable for asking them to follow through with a KS that they funded, then pulled so they didn't have to fulfill the TOS for the project, then get caught in lies and doubletalk over the FOX product, and the unacceptable badmouthing of FOX in a self imposed "Contriversy" over something that by all rights should be jumping off of the shelves.
We are talking a tabletop AVP game. It's not rocket science, its the rule of the 7 P's.
The figures are top notch, the service and logistics is bottom feeder.
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