Yep.

The Lasgun. Often derided for being as weak as a kitten. Maligned because it's not the mighty Bolter, or the esoteric Shuriken Catapult. Laughed at because it can't drop a rampaging Ork at 500 paces with a single shot.

Except.....that's actually bullpoop. It's an absolute miracle weapon.

Consider its advantages. First, let's look at those in the actual setting.

It's largely standardised. For an entity as sprawling and inefficient as The Imperium, that's massively important. If you wind up with the ammo crates for 348th Cadian, but you're the 4868th Valhallan - it doesn't matter. Those clips will still fit - your war effort goes on.

It's a remarkably advanced weapon kept even more remarkably simple. Few moving parts makes maintenance a cinch - certainly well within the means of all but the most primitive and backward recruiting worlds denizens. And when parts wear out, it's standardised design means it's modular. Perhaps not as flexible as its ammo here, it's still of great benefit that you need only dish out a new barrel. Unscrew the old, screw in the new, say your prayers and you're back blasting Heretics before you know it. And because it doesn't use solid ammo, jams should be non-existent - the main wear and tear is on the emitter, rather than the body.



It's ammo packs are ridiculously efficient. Auto Weapons, the closest equivalent to modern assault weapons have a clip of what, 36 rounds max? A single Lasgun power pack? Well over a hundred shots. So not only do you need to reload less (allowing for impressive sustained volleys), but your average Guardsman has room and weight to spare in their kit - all of which extends their operational range.

Background wise, against an unarmoured human they're described as being able to inflict death in a single shot - and even sever limbs with relative ease.

Now, look at the above from the perspective of a modern military. What there is not to like? I'm pretty confident that if you could knock one up as a proof of concept, matching the above criteria exactly, you would sell a stupendous number of units - both to military and civilian (though one suspects such a competent weapon would be highly restricted!) and you'd be an overnight billionaire.

So let's hear it for the not-so Humble Lasgun, the true protector of the Imperium.

the problem with that is there are multiple types of 'standard pattern las-gun' all using different ammo clips (the are all las gun power clips, but come in different sizes). Las gun is a catch all term for small arms laser weapons, much like the auto gun is a catch all for small arms solid shot weapons. Just look at the number of automatic rifles and magazine clips there are for assault rifles. Its why you have a Ryza Pattern Lasgun, a Necromunda Pattern Lasgun etc etc. These are mentioned by name simply because the are issued in such large numbers, but I imagine every forge world and weapons producing hive world have their own versions. Also changing clips between patterns would be much harder, as a clip is a single power cell at a set size and shape. At least with solid shot, there is a reasonable chance you can take the bullets out of one magazine and put them in another magazine designed for the same calibre *Not guaranteed, but a reasonable chance).

There's many patterns of Lasgun right enough - but the vast majority all use a common power cell.

Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

Also I never got how a lasgun was supposedly really resilient to dirt and such. Sure it would probably still *work* but anything covering the lenses and it's firing wonky, weakened and/or simply dumping all that energy into the end of your barrel, exactly a normal rifle being fully blocked.

But still, I agree. Another massive advantage is how easy they are to train with 'you put the crosshairs over the target and pull the trigger' none of this gravity bollocks.
Plus you don't have to constantly issue ammunition, supply the Guardsmen once and he can just plug them into a socket whenever he runs out. Chimeras have such sockets in the back for instant in-the-field resupply.

But most of what I know is based on DH and Gaunt's Ghosts.
In Gaunt's Ghost they the lasers have a significant amount of mass AND heat it seems, yet are still beams of some variety.
At one moment blowing an arm off in a single hit, and another catching a man square in the throat and merely burning out the voice box...

I think lasguns are pretty cool and they're a very practical weapon most of the time. Are they the best for stopping a charging ork at very close range? No, but they have a lot of other things going for them.

icn1982 wrote:
the problem with that is there are multiple types of 'standard pattern las-gun' all using different ammo clips (the are all las gun power clips, but come in different sizes). Las gun is a catch all term for small arms laser weapons, much like the auto gun is a catch all for small arms solid shot weapons. Just look at the number of automatic rifles and magazine clips there are for assault rifles. Its why you have a Ryza Pattern Lasgun, a Necromunda Pattern Lasgun etc etc. These are mentioned by name simply because the are issued in such large numbers, but I imagine every forge world and weapons producing hive world have their own versions. Also changing clips between patterns would be much harder, as a clip is a single power cell at a set size and shape. At least with solid shot, there is a reasonable chance you can take the bullets out of one magazine and put them in another magazine designed for the same calibre *Not guaranteed, but a reasonable chance).

Yeah, there are a lot of different patterns of lasguns out there. I remember in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels they were having a problem because the Tanith lascarbines utilized a standard Size 3 power pack and they kept getting issued Size 4 power packs (or something like that, I might have the numbers wrong).

I'm inclined to disagree about the power pack differences being harder to deal with than cartridges similar to what we use currently. It's true that if you have two different weapons designed to use the same cartridge you could remove the cartridges from one magazine and stick them in another. However, relatively small changes in cartridge dimensions, gunpowder and bullet weight could really feth with reliability.

I don't know that much about electrical stuff, but if the power cells supply electricity to the lasgun (like maybe the power pack charges a capacitor on the lasgun?) then it seems like it would be more straightforward for the Departmento Munitorum armorers to come up with an adapter allowing their standard production power packs to power the lasgun.

size, 3.5 and size 5 (I read that bit yesterday, which is why I mentioned the different power cells.

With regards to why a las weapon doesn't clog the same as a solid shot, I imagine they do, but if the lenses are deep enough inside, all you would need to do is fire several rounds to clear the blockage - in a solid shot the ammo would explode, a las weapon it wouldn't

Well, it is a freaking weaponized laser so it is inherently awesome.

I do have to get a joke out:
Q:"What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight?"
A:"Twin-linked".
Okay, I am done and got that out of my system.

A recessed barrel would be good but if any wet mud got packed in there, the boiling steam could make an impressive explosion when fired.

The lore of exposing the end of a clip next to a fire to recharge is a cool image and makes you wonder why a solar panel of sorts is not all over the gun: they sound mighty efficient.
I agree that logistics would be utterly brutal so an efficient low maintenance and low consumables weapon is mandatory.
Since guard are rather... plentiful, weapon effectiveness all boils down to this:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

The Guard Primer as well as some codex mentionned that, at standard charge, a lasgun can fire around 150 shots before needing to change pack. Each guard carries around four of them. In a single pack, a Guardsmen has more shots than Space Marine in his entire kit (six magasine of around 30 bolts). The Fantasy Flight game stats are made for balance purpose. The game stats of the weapon should taken with a grain of salt.

The lasgun is indeed an incredibly powerful weapon thanks to its reliability, ease of use, decent power and amazing capacity.

IIRC in the Inquisitor RPG book Lasguns had over 100 shots per power pack.

Many lasguns have a power selector. Maybe ~150 on the default setting but only ~40 at max?
Edit: Or maybe ~150 is the lowest setting. I don't know.

Further, the power cell for the lasgun adsorbs energy from light. You can leave an empty one out in the sun all day and have a full mag by nightfall. Supposedly you can even charge them off camp fires which would make them far more efficient than our own solar panels.

 Talizvar wrote:

I do have to get a joke out:
Q:"What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight?"
A:"Twin-linked".
Okay, I am done and got that out of my system.

Better you than me.

Of course the problem is that while the lasgun should be consider average, or even better than average, the game mechanics don't/can't allow weapons that would be entirely useless. I am glad 40K doesn't have weapons so weak that to wound they would have roll a 6 followed my another 6 or is completely negated my armor. It would seem like a waste of time (at least to me) to add one more bucket of dice being rolled.

I can accept that the lasgun is an awesome destructive weapon and would be (and often is) the pinnacle in many other settings. However, 40K is so Grimdark, badass that these frickin' lasers are bottom tier small arms weaponry. I don't need that backed up with worst weapons in game mechanics to make lasguns, or bolters for that matter, seem better.

Just a quick note, in the Guns of Tanith, a subplot is that the Ghosts were given the wrong size lasgun clips, so they had to conserve ammo, which also implied that clips are a deal less than 100 (basically everyone ran out).

Also, while we're talking about how awesome lasguns are, lets give a shout out to flak armour. The stuff is a good deal better than what we have now, simply as it is capable of saving someone from being shot with the afore-mentioned lasguns.

The simple comparison to lasguns/flak armour and the laser weaponry of any other setting is the major reason why I think the Guard would be basically unstoppable in any other universe.

Mudrat wrote:
Just a quick note, in the Guns of Tanith, a subplot is that the Ghosts were given the wrong size lasgun clips, so they had to conserve ammo, which also implied that clips are a deal less than 100 (basically everyone ran out).

Also, while we're talking about how awesome lasguns are, lets give a shout out to flak armour. The stuff is a good deal better than what we have now, simply as it is capable of saving someone from being shot with the afore-mentioned lasguns.

The simple comparison to lasguns/flak armour and the laser weaponry of any other setting is the major reason why I think the Guard would be basically unstoppable in any other universe.

Yeah, but I don't think Gaunt's Ghosts is an amazing source of facts on the function of a lasgun.
As I mentioned earlier their shots had enough kinetic energy behind them to flip a man over (but nowhere near that much recoil), they were affected by wind (but seemingly not gravity), and they move from having the power to blow and arm off (so almost hand grenade levels of hurt) to not even killing a man with a square hit to the throat (less than a really hard punch levels of hurt). Plus they ricochet.
So bearing in mind all that, do we take those books as a measure of the types of power cell and their capacity?

Personally the different types of powercell seems pretty plausible though, and I'm sure a lasgun could even have an adapter.

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

 Hawky wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

Oh I know, But reflecting off of an asphalt surface or a rock? Nah.
They once fought some corrupted Men of Iron whom had shiny armour. Apparently that 'robbed the lasbolts of all but their kinetic energy, knocking the thing off stride'. So these lasbolts clearly have a lot of mass behind them, but not that much recoil.
So as I said, not exactly a scientific account of lasers.

Yeah, that's dumb.

I noticed earlier that Gaunt's ghosts have some flaws in it's weapon representation. Lasbolts are sometimes more solid ammunation than actual lasers.

 Hawky wrote:
Yeah, that's dumb.

I noticed earlier that Gaunt's ghosts have some flaws in it's weapon representation. Lasbolts are sometimes more solid ammunation than actual lasers.

Seems good for just about everything else though
Their tank combat was reasonably accurate, it's just a shame the lasweapons are so weirdly wrong.

The best thing i like about lasguns is that you can charge up laspacks by heating them up (But it Degrades the pack resulting in less shots)

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
IIRC in the Inquisitor RPG book Lasguns had over 100 shots per power pack.

Many lasguns have a power selector. Maybe ~150 on the default setting but only ~40 at max?
Edit: Or maybe ~150 is the lowest setting. I don't know.

I have in my hands three genuine lasgun powerpacks*.

They have stated capacities of:
Mars: 97-166 discharges
Vostroya: 135 discharges
Triplex Phall: 144-147 discharges

I don't think I like the quality control on those Mars-pattern packs.

* 5th edition dice tins.

Previous editions of the rules explained las-weapons as firing "energy bolts" which interacted explosively with the surface of whatever they hit as the surface absorbs the energy and vapourises (a pretty plausible explanation of how a laser weapon might work, actually). the laser bolt will have some momentum, but to get to the point where that will actually be relevant the output of the weapon needs to get ... very large indeed. Also, if the bolt is reflected, the momentum transfer will be higher than if it is simply absorbed by the target. Which is why you want your solar sail to be very shiny.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

The Guard Primer as well as some codex mentionned that, at standard charge, a lasgun can fire around 150 shots before needing to change pack. Each guard carries around four of them. In a single pack, a Guardsmen has more shots than Space Marine in his entire kit (six magasine of around 30 bolts). The Fantasy Flight game stats are made for balance purpose. The game stats of the weapon should taken with a grain of salt.

The lasgun is indeed an incredibly powerful weapon thanks to its reliability, ease of use, decent power and amazing capacity.

Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

Oh I know, But reflecting off of an asphalt surface or a rock? Nah.
They once fought some corrupted Men of Iron whom had shiny armour. Apparently that 'robbed the lasbolts of all but their kinetic energy, knocking the thing off stride'. So these lasbolts clearly have a lot of mass behind them, but not that much recoil.
So as I said, not exactly a scientific account of lasers.

I dont know, I can see a whole regiment given the punishment detail of polishing rocks

The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

The Lasgun is a brilliant weapon for its ease if use, durability, adaptability and rechargeable ammo packs. Who knows how many versions or modifications are out there, I think that goes for power pack capacity as one's standard may be completely different to another planets. I say power packs can hold as much or as little amount of shots as you want depending on quality and size. E.g from single shot Las-locks to the hundreds of shots in the highest quality. Indeed in the novel Sons of Dawn the 'Roaring Blades' Emperor's Children Auxiliary Infantry Regiment still had a few working Lasguns (albeit in their final spurt of shots) 10,000 years after they were first issued. Of course you could argue well they must have been using up the last of their power packs, but I think Lasguns built in the Great Crusade probably had a higher capacity of shot than those in the current 40k due to the superior technology and quality that was later lost in the Heresy and Mars uprisings

Interesting Information:

It operates on a nineteen megathule range and can utilise any Departmento Munitorum sanctioned power pack.
It can either be fired in two settings 'low or high' in either single or burst shots.
Rate of fire (cyclic) 220 shots per minute.
Can be recharged in sources of heat or good light and can even be placed in fire without threat of explosion.

Litany of the Lasgun:
Bringer of Death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's Death

As a little bonus, test your skills with a Lasgun on the Tyranid firing range in this classic mini game from GW!

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20060203023328oe_/http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/xenos-hunt/1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

'Most Fire Warriors carry a cumbersome projectile weapon called a pulse rifle. Like most tau technology, it is of outlandish design and prone to malfunction. They are noisy and produce a brightly flared pulse of concentrated ion. Only prolonged, sustained barrages are capable of killing a strong, armoured human'

-Quote from GW-

Lasgun hype!

I hold in my left hand DH 2nd Ed rulebook and in my right the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer (damocles gulf ed). Let's do some facts.

Lasgun according to page 152 in DH 2nd Ed rulebook:

Effective range: up to 400m
Rate of fire: single shot or semi automatic bursts of roughly 2shot/second of 3shot bursts.
Ammo capacity: 60 shots per clip
Weight: 4kg
Fire settings: can be set to extending 2 shots worth of ammo per shot for increased damadge or 4 shots of ammo per shot for even more increased damadge and penetration.
Damadge type: energy (heat)
Special properties: reliable. Does not easily break or jam.
Add ons: a variety of stocks, sights, grips, bayonette, targeter, inscriptions and clip modifications. Silencers are not included.
Special ammo: hot shot charge. An overcharged pack only good for a single shot, but with power to rival a boltgun.
Notes: of course there's various patterns and versions of the lasgun, such as the Carbine and the long las, but here I only included the standard entry.

Lasgun according to page 18 in the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer:

Effective range: 19 megathule? ("decent range" is written)
Rate of fire: single shot or fully automatic bursts of 220 shots per minute (roughly 3.5shots/second)
Ammo capacity: "many shots"
Weight: 2.3kg (could be without stock, ammo clip and other add ons)
Fire settings: low or high intensity. High intensity drains the pack more but provides more stopping power.
Damadge type: energy. The shot is designed to cauterise the wound but heat up and boil the insides to cause internal bleeding and trauma (p 78).
Special properties: compatable with any munitorum sanctioned designs. It's also durable and the clip CSN be recharged from a "standard powersource" as well as light, heat or placing it in a fire for quick emergency recharge (which tends to have some negative side effects on the clip.
Add ons: same as DH but with a silencer included (which dampens the flash as well somehow)

There, that took long enough to write.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

The description of weapons is very acurate compared to other sources. The propaganda is in the tone more than in the content before they start to talk about xenos.. You don't want to present bs that be exposed in training. The survival tricks are all very good for example.

The propaganda becomes ridiculous with the xenos and than againt. With the orks, it's mostly true with some elements of pure bs and some misrepresentations. It make sense since most guards will fight orks at some point. When it comes to eldar, there is a lot of bs and misrepresentation. Logical since guardsmen will relatively fight them. Tyranids info are full of bs because they are terrifying, a new threat (its the Damocles Gulf eddition) and the guards will be sent to die against them not win.

 Nerak wrote:
Lasgun hype!

I hold in my left hand DH 2nd Ed rulebook and in my right the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer (damocles gulf ed).

Well I was holding the Damocles Gulf Primer in my left hand and Dark Heresy Second edition in my right!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

The description of weapons is very acurate compared to other sources. The propaganda is in the tone more than in the content before they start to talk about xenos.. You don't want to present bs that be exposed in training. The survival tricks are all very good for example.

The propaganda becomes ridiculous with the xenos and than againt. With the orks, it's mostly true with some elements of pure bs and some misrepresentations. It make sense since most guards will fight orks at some point. When it comes to eldar, there is a lot of bs and misrepresentation. Logical since guardsmen will relatively fight them. Tyranids info are full of bs because they are terrifying, a new threat (its the Damocles Gulf eddition) and the guards will be sent to die against them not win.

Primer:

'Orks are big, stupid and bestial' - Correct

-Tyranid weapons are formed out of living tissues; they often fall apart' - Correct

-'Eldar are weak and impure' - Technically correct

-'Tau are cowards, hiding behind their pathetic armour' - Correct, you never see unarmoured Tau in melee.

 Sentinel1 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

'Most Fire Warriors carry a cumbersome projectile weapon called a pulse rifle. Like most tau technology, it is of outlandish design and prone to malfunction. They are noisy and produce a brightly flared pulse of concentrated ion. Only prolonged, sustained barrages are capable of killing a strong, armoured human'

-Quote from GW-

I'm guessing from the Primer?

Pulse rifles are toned-down plasma weapons, not ion. You sound like you're reading Imperial propaganda designed to keep Imperial troops from using the Tau's superior weapon systems.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

I doubt the plasma part. The Tau certainly have more pulse rifles than the Imperium has bolters. The Imperium can only afford to field a million or so Space Marines. I'm not sure there's any data on the size of the Sororitas, but given the difficulties of equipping 1 million Space Marines with bolters, power armor, and other weapons, there's no way the Imperium fields more than 10 million Sororitas. The Tau sure as hell have more than 10 million Fire Warriors.

The Guard also has some boltguns. And I have no doubt that if the Imperium wanted a smaller, but better equipped military, they could make way more bolters than pulse weaponry, there's just not enough demand for the weapon.

EDit: And I wonder if the Tau could make pulse weapons at the same rate as they are now if the role were reversed. And then there's hotshot weaponry, which might lack some punch, but has amazing armor penetration compared to well, any other standard weaponry, except the pulse blaster at extremely close ranges.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Guard also has some boltguns. And I have no doubt that if the Imperium wanted a smaller, but better equipped military, they could make way more bolters than pulse weaponry, there's just not enough demand for the weapon.

EDit: And I wonder if the Tau could make pulse weapons at the same rate as they are now if the role were reversed. And then there's hotshot weaponry, which might lack some punch, but has amazing armor penetration compared to well, any other standard weaponry, except the pulse blaster at extremely close ranges.

It's also shorter ranged.It's a specialist weapon for killing troops in power armor. You put it against fire warriors in the open and it'd might as well be a pistol.

I guess, this is why most units using said guns are dropped near enemies where their short range doesn't matter as much, its also more reliable to go through combat armor, while pulse will not go through carapace armor reliably.

I heard the only reason guard don't field Bolters as standard is that a bolter can pose a legitimate threat to an astartes.
And we wouldn't want guard doing that now would we? They might turn traitor with them!

Impressive though the Tau's manufacture of the pulse rifle en-mass is, it doesn't quite compare to the scale of the Imperium.

In galactic terms, the scale and population of the Tau Empire is orders of magnitude smaller than the Imperium, as is their logistical challenge.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Lasgun is more impressive as an industrial feat, it just means that we need to look a little deeper than 'standard Tau infantry have S5 guns'.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

The pulse rifle doesn't even have a bayonet lug! It might be a nice toy for plinking cans down in the gravel pit, but it is not a serious weapon of war.

At least that's what the Commissar tells me.

I'd need to buy the novel and read it again, but there's a bit in one of the Last Chancers novel where the narrator tells a Tau diplomat the population of his home hive world. The Tau is astonished - that single planet has a greater population than the entire Tau empire.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

To maybe a few million soldiers. In one particular part of the galaxy. Plus, Bolters are more compact and tactically flexible than Pulse Rifles. It's the difference between a submachine gun and a semi-automatic full powered rifle.

The reason why Bolters aren't more common mostly have to do with logistics rather than the Imperium's inability to make enough to supply their soldiers with them. Lasguns are powerful enough for the most common foes an Imperial soldier is likely to face, require far less maintenance, are cheaper to produce and use rechargeable power packs as ammunition. For an army of uncountable billions the Lasgun is the perfect fit. Bolters are cumbersome weapons that can only be used effectively by elite soldiers who train heavily in their exclusive use. Or by officers who really want to make a statement and a bolt pistol just won't do.

Bolters aren't that hard to produce. The Imperial Guard uses heavy bolter on almost all their tanks and in heavy weapon teams. There is probably very little regiments who don't have at least a dozen or so of these weapons or somthing similar. Their ammunition is something else. A Bolt shell is a mini rocket. It's very high tech, long and difficult to produce compared to all other types of ammunition. A gun is only useful of you have ammo for it else you might as well call it a bad club. In that regard, the lasgun is a far better weapon.

I'm not sure bolters should be held up as a high point of technological prowess. Apparently they're notoriously finicky to keep in working order, requiring a fair bit of regular maintenance just to keep them shooting.

That info comes from Necromunda where Bolters are pretty much kept as a status symbol, rather than useful as a standard weapon.

I'd definitely put both Pule Rifles and Lasguns as more impressive technological feats.

Yeah, but that's in the context of scooters living in shanty towns. The rules for properly-equipped forces like the Adeptus Arbites removed the need for ammo rolls, as they carried properly-maintained weapons and plenty of spare mags.

True, but the fact that Lasguns still remain reliable at that level of misuse is a massive tick in their favour. In a protracted engagement, it's difficult to properly maintain your equipment, and even harder to get parts/replacements.

Reliability in terrible situations is a massive boon for a firearm that's going to see active combat.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, it is a freaking weaponized laser so it is inherently awesome.

[/thread]

I see the LG as more of a Star Wars blaster then something that uses simply laser. Like people have said before poor weather conditions such as heavy fog, heavy rain, terrain, debris easily clogging the barrel would negatively effect a laser. Something that generates a solid plasma projectile that wouldn't be effected by those things is a different story.

Maybe I'm wrong though, I do not understand how lasers really work so....

It hasn't been depicted as a "hard light" blaster in media outside of Dan Abnet AFAIK. The thing is, it's true that we don't really know how it functions. Only that it does. And it's the most reliable ranged weapon on the 40k battlefield.

icn1982 wrote:
size, 3.5 and size 5 (I read that bit yesterday, which is why I mentioned the different power cells.

With regards to why a las weapon doesn't clog the same as a solid shot, I imagine they do, but if the lenses are deep enough inside, all you would need to do is fire several rounds to clear the blockage - in a solid shot the ammo would explode, a las weapon it wouldn't

Well with that case wasn't it carbine vs rifle? Different type of weapons logically would have different cells

What? No. The M4 and the M16 both have the same mag wells and fire the same bullet. Its really more comparing an AK vs an M16

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm not sure bolters should be held up as a high point of technological prowess. Apparently they're notoriously finicky to keep in working order, requiring a fair bit of regular maintenance just to keep them shooting.

That info comes from Necromunda where Bolters are pretty much kept as a status symbol, rather than useful as a standard weapon.

I'd definitely put both Pule Rifles and Lasguns as more impressive technological feats.

They were apparently the second choice as the main weapon to outfit the Legiones Astartes. Bolters were favored over Volkite weapons because of they were easier to produce.

Hardly any moving / friction parts would be a great advantage. No bullets or casings or bolt or piston to unjam. No bullet drop to deal with (no need to zero for different ranges if you just zero to infinity). Cleaning may just require cleaning the lenses and scraping carbon from the barrel. I'm assuming even if the power packs don't fit, they'd probably have some sort of cable and adapter to connect the nodes. No hearing protection needed. Can be made water proof. Can be made out of lighter polymer as it does not have to withstand heavy recoil.

The whole question about Tau pulse riffles makes me wonder about other Xeno tech. Specifically, the Eldar once ruled over an Empire at least as big, if not bigger than the IoM. How do their standard weapons stack up against the lasgun? Could the LasBlaster be mass produced?

KayTwo wrote:
The whole question about Tau pulse riffles makes me wonder about other Xeno tech. Specifically, the Eldar once ruled over an Empire at least as big, if not bigger than the IoM. How do their standard weapons stack up against the lasgun? Could the LasBlaster be mass produced?

The Eldar Empire was much smaller than the IoM. Lexicanum says about 10,000 star systems. I think most of it was in what is now the Eye of Terror. However, it was much more technologically advanced.

All Eldar small arms excel the Lasgun in all respects but one: Logistics. Lasguns have the advantage of having rechargeable ammunition packs. This makes supplying Guard troops a much easier task as you only have to issue a few power packs per trooper and the occasional replacement magazine. The inability of the Lasgun to harm the more exotic warriors of the galaxy means this logistic advantage is cold comfort for the Imperial Guardsman who has to face down a charging Carnifex only armed with what amounts to a glorified flashlight... but it's a miracle weapon for the paper pushers in the Departmento Munitorum.

Does this mean anything for the average Eldar trooper? No, probably not. Eldar do not fight the protracted battles the Guard often finds themselves in and thus resupply isn't as much of an issue. Plus, what may take a Guard soldier 5 shots to accomplish a Dire Avenger only needs one. This is just discussing the technical merits of each weapon, though.

The thing that I always think about Eldar weaponry in 40k is that it probably bears little if any resemblance to the weaponry that was around during their Empire.

Part of their fluff is that in their height, the Eldar were so technologically advanced that they had no need to enter wars themselves. All of their border control was done by 'psychomatons'.

So, after the Fall and the enforced limits on their psychic potential (which presumably was used to run the psychomaton armies, as it's been stated that pretty much all Eldar tech aside from DEldar is psychically activated), they would have had to scrabble to either develop new weaponry to defent themselves with, or figure out how to work these thousand+ year old relics that their ancestors used before they invented their automaton armies.

Hence you end up with things like the Dark Eldar vehicle fleet, which is basically modified pleasure craft.

Also, as TheCustomLime said the Eldar don't fight in the same way the Guard do. They utilise their movement advantage with the webway to strike where and when they want to, and then withdraw before they get bogged down in a protracted conflict.

Furthermore, the eldar are probably fully capable of mass-producing their basic weaponry. However, they're not capable of mass-producing Eldar themselves, so they'd end up with a massive pile of Shuriken Catapults and no-one to shoot them...

A lot of why the lasgun is considered so weak is that it's the standard weapon of an army that in terms of game stats is weaker than the standard weapons of most other armies. On a scale of "weapons seen in a casual game of 40k from most powerful to least," where power level is determined by how much damage a single instance of the weapon does in a turn, the lasgun ranks close to rock-bottom. Lasguns are a miracle of warfare, but the tabletop shows only extraordinary conflicts where it's rapidly outclassed. In Dark Heresy where the lasgun is basically the average in terms of power level it's much easier to see it as the innovation that the fluff portrays it as.

Yet another thing to consider is that almost all 40K tabletop weapons are for large scale war, in which Lasguns are at the bottom of the food chain. But they're pretty high up when just considering "daily life" in the Imperium, even when including Hive Gang combat, PDF action, etc.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Hardly any moving / friction parts would be a great advantage. No bullets or casings or bolt or piston to unjam. No bullet drop to deal with (no need to zero for different ranges if you just zero to infinity). Cleaning may just require cleaning the lenses and scraping carbon from the barrel. I'm assuming even if the power packs don't fit, they'd probably have some sort of cable and adapter to connect the nodes. No hearing protection needed. Can be made water proof. Can be made out of lighter polymer as it does not have to withstand heavy recoil.

I always assumed the barrel is the lasing rod, with the lens at or near the muzzle. An actual hollow tube after the emitter is useless. Worse than useless, as it makes the weapon needlessly long and heavy.

Differences in power packs is down to different patterns of lasgun.
A longlas is just a lasgun with a longer barrel (normally fitted with various other hardware as well) which presumably improves the focusing of the laser.
Laspistols potentially use a different, probably smaller, powerpack. But that could have just been a different pattern to the lasrifle the regiment was using, as it was noted pistols weren't standard issue.
Who even knows exactly how a hot-shot lasgun differs from a regular lasgun, since regular lasguns of course can carry hot-shot charge packs.

I'm not sure what the logistics on shuriken weapons is though, since they're monoblade weapons you can fit an awful lot of shots in a relatively small magazine/clip/whatever. But that requires technology superior to what the Imperium has, and who knows how much of a bitch maintaining a shuriken weapon is, it must have some complex gubbin's.

Lasweapons are described in dark heresy as being louder than an autogun, and cannot be silenced (but tabletop models and other books seems to say they can) which, combined with the visible laser, makes them pretty bad for clandestine work.
Kind of makes sense if you can't silence them to me, as I would imagine the noise is created by the super heating of the air it passes through, meaning the noise would be generated along the entire length of the laser (also making it impossible to identify the position of the firer by noise)

Used to be the hotshot lasgun used up all of its laspack's power in one shot. Nowadays that's no longer true sadly, and they've melded it in with hellguns.

 Melissia wrote:
Used to be the hotshot lasgun used up all of its laspack's power in one shot. Nowadays that's no longer true sadly, and they've melded it in with hellguns.

Well a hot-shot laspack seems to be a powerpack modified to dump the whole pack in one shot.
A hot-shot lasgun operates off of a back pack power supply. They also seem to have a canvas shroud on the barrel. So perhaps they're similar to regular lasguns modified to always draw hot-shot levels of power, using the backpack supply to not have to end up reloading constantly. The canvas shroud is presumably to keep the barrel cool and handle-able during protracted firing.

All lasguns can be equipped to a backpack, they don't have to be modified. Even las PISTOLS can be attached to a backpack if you want. Heck, a lascannon can be, if you want to avoid having to reload every time you fire.

 Melissia wrote:
All lasguns can be equipped to a backpack, they don't have to be modified. Even las PISTOLS can be attached to a backpack if you want. Heck, a lascannon can be, if you want to avoid having to reload every time you fire.

Indeed. A so-called Hellgun will actually accept standard power packs, which means vice-verse is also true, a lasgun will accept a hellgun's power pack(which will just give it more ammo).

Las weapons are indeed amazing weapons, but not in the areas where it matters on the table top. Their advantages are more in the areas of logistics and attrition. Its given up power to make supply and maintenance easier.

Oh I know regular lasweapons can have a backpack power supply, my point on hot-shot lasguns was that they were locked to firing hot-shot lasers and because feeding that kind of juice through standard power packs is inefficient they use backpack power supplies.
Whereas regular lasweapons need a special hot-shot charge pack, which is presumably modified to dump it's whole load in one shot rather than rationing it over however many shots.

The one intriguing sidebar I never understood. Why didn't they make multi lasers the standard infantry support weapon in stead of heavy bolters?

 Frazzled wrote:
The one intriguing sidebar I never understood. Why didn't they make multi lasers the standard infantry support weapon in stead of heavy bolters?

I assumed it was that the multi-lasers required a single large generator/capacitor to be dragged alone, whereas the heavy bolter can be fed by several bite sized mags or belts.
Why isn't the multi-laser a standard mount in vehicle chassis? Pass. Maybe it has something to do with the HE and shrapnel of the heavy bolter?

 Frazzled wrote:
The one intriguing sidebar I never understood. Why didn't they make multi lasers the standard infantry support weapon in stead of heavy bolters?

Probably because the Heavy Bolter offers vastly superior performances than the Multilaser and since both weapons are heavy weapons used in much smaller amount than lasguns, logistical and maintenance problem are more acceptable. At some point performance becomes more important than ease of use. It's also possible that Heavy Bolters are more reliable and easy to maintain and produce then their miniaturised version. That's why it has become the most popular anti-infantry weapon in the Astra Millitarum.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The one intriguing sidebar I never understood. Why didn't they make multi lasers the standard infantry support weapon in stead of heavy bolters?

I assumed it was that the multi-lasers required a single large generator/capacitor to be dragged alone, whereas the heavy bolter can be fed by several bite sized mags or belts.
Why isn't the multi-laser a standard mount in vehicle chassis? Pass. Maybe it has something to do with the HE and shrapnel of the heavy bolter?

Multilasers are available as hull/pintle and sometimes as sponson options for vehicles in the 30k era on Russ', Malcadors, Basilisks, Medusas etc. Their lack of presence in the 40k era can probably be chalked up to the tech-regression of the Cult Mechanicus.

The Krieg Storm Chimera is also said to swap their multilaser both for increase of firepower and ease of munition resupply.

That's weird, I would have assumed that vehicle mounted las weapons would have run off of the vehicle's power plant.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
That's weird, I would have assumed that vehicle mounted las weapons would have run off of the vehicle's power plant.

That only works if the vehicle actually has a power plant and doesn't run on hydrocarbons. Most guard vehicles run on hydrocarbons. which likely dont give enough excess power to run a energy weapon on top of normal functions.

That's a fair point.

Typically, tanks carrying the snackiest Las weapons (Super Heavies etc) tend to have onboard Plasma Reactors - though I'm not sure if that's in place of or alongside regular engines for the rest of its power needs?

Wouldn't be surprised if super heavies like baneblades had hybrid systems. Reactors and internal combustion engines.

In Necrumunda there is a on table benefit for lasgun reloading.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That's a fair point.

Typically, tanks carrying the snackiest Las weapons (Super Heavies etc) tend to have onboard Plasma Reactors - though I'm not sure if that's in place of or alongside regular engines for the rest of its power needs?

Er...Leman Russes don't have plasma reactors.

I did say those with the snackiest Las weapons

Another thought....

Variable power settings. That's actually an odd advantage, when you consider suppressive fire.

With a modern weapon or pretty much any other 40k infantry weapon, it's the one type of shot. So your suppressive fire is eating through your ammo reserves.

But with the Lasgun (at least on some patterns), one could flick it to the lowest power setting, buying your more shots. That seems ideal for suppressive fire - you force the enemy to keep their heads down, and at a lower ammo consumption rate.

Sure you're more likely to miss out on lucky kill shots, but the trade off is a far longer sustained volley. And should the enemy make a break for it, flick of a switch and you're back to proper killing power to take advantage.

Again, I can see that being appealing to any military, 40k or modern.

That's a brilliant idea fantastic tactical flexibility. They could be shooting low power shots, or Hot Shots. Can you risk it?

I really want to read a properly in-depth story about an elite squad of Guardsmen/Scions/Elysians doing proper SAS-style missions with all that sort of clever tactical use of futuristic equipment now

Not all Lasguns have the power settings though. Only a few lasgun variants have this functionality because some regiments aren't trusted not to "waste" ammunition by cranking up the power unnecessarily.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
That's a brilliant idea fantastic tactical flexibility. They could be shooting low power shots, or Hot Shots. Can you risk it?

I really want to read a properly in-depth story about an elite squad of Guardsmen/Scions/Elysians doing proper SAS-style missions with all that sort of clever tactical use of futuristic equipment now

Play a tactical squad level Only War with a good GM.

I'm playing in one right now, highest rank is a Sergeant who's in charge of the squad. All las weapons come with different settings and we switch those when needed -- low for suppression or ammo conservation, overcharge/overload for kill shots, burning cover or pumping damage into a hard target. What's great is that all Las weapons come with that; Multilasers, Longlas etc.

A multilaser overloading can harm light vehicles as well, adding even more flexibility to that squad automatic weapon.

That sounds kickass brilliant ideas!

Isn't an Ork Shoota superior in ease of construction, reliability, and ammo consumption?

Only works because the Ork believes it works though

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

I doubt the plasma part. The Tau certainly have more pulse rifles than the Imperium has bolters. The Imperium can only afford to field a million or so Space Marines. I'm not sure there's any data on the size of the Sororitas, but given the difficulties of equipping 1 million Space Marines with bolters, power armor, and other weapons, there's no way the Imperium fields more than 10 million Sororitas. The Tau sure as hell have more than 10 million Fire Warriors.

I know I'm a bit late responding here, but if you follow the 2E codex numbers(the only numbers GW ever gave us) each of the 6 Adepta Sororitas Orders Majoris usually has 3-4 thousand Sisters Militant, with peak numbers sometimes reaching 7000 in one order. I can't imagine that there are more Sisters in minor Orders than in major orders, so I tend to think that on overage there are maybe 40,000 Sisters Militant in the galaxy. Of course, I've seen other people estimate their numbers to be in the billions using different logic, but I stick with the codex numbers.

 Servant of Dante wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

I doubt the plasma part. The Tau certainly have more pulse rifles than the Imperium has bolters. The Imperium can only afford to field a million or so Space Marines. I'm not sure there's any data on the size of the Sororitas, but given the difficulties of equipping 1 million Space Marines with bolters, power armor, and other weapons, there's no way the Imperium fields more than 10 million Sororitas. The Tau sure as hell have more than 10 million Fire Warriors.

I know I'm a bit late responding here, but if you follow the 2E codex numbers(the only numbers GW ever gave us) each of the 6 Adepta Sororitas Orders Majoris usually has 3-4 thousand Sisters Militant, with peak numbers sometimes reaching 7000 in one order. I can't imagine that there are more Sisters in minor Orders than in major orders, so I tend to think that on overage there are maybe 40,000 Sisters Militant in the galaxy. Of course, I've seen other people estimate their numbers to be in the billions using different logic, but I stick with the codex numbers.

... that's not very impressive. If you're looking to wipe out a Space Marine chapter, that'd work just fine. A Sept world would drown the sum total of the Sororitas in just Fire Warriors. The Tau can leave the Crisis Suits and Riptides at home.

Hence why I take any hard numbers given in codices as propaganda/ignorance/lies. They flat-out just don't work on a galactic scale, but GW specifically states that anything they write in codices is to be looked at with skepticism, which offers us a unique opportunity to ignore stuff that doesn't make sense

 Frazzled wrote:
The one intriguing sidebar I never understood. Why didn't they make multi lasers the standard infantry support weapon in stead of heavy bolters?

Actually, the standard infantry support weapon was originally the lascannon and the grenade launcher.

The multi-laser was originally described, IIRC, as being far too heavy to be man-portable - its use was mostly restricted to vehicles (such as the Sentinel).

Of course, the other vehicle models available to Guard armies were the Land Raider, Rhino and Predator, which all mounted bolt weapons as secondary anti-infantry weapons, so the models drove the background in a slightly different direction.

LAsguns suffer the same cruel fate as 99% of stuff in 40k: the writers fethed up and plot has more relevance that sense.

A lasgun in modern warfare would be a gamechanger due to allthe reasons listed in the OP, certainly in terms of ammo and ease of maintenance.

The issue of it being weak comes from the fact 99% of things in 40k are tougher than humans. Space Marines, Orks, most of the bigger Tyranids, Necrons. Eldar and Tau are as durable but also come with armour capable of taking rounds from 75mm armour penetrating explosive rounds. Then you also have literal Daemons.

Then the main issue comes from writers not being able to decide consistantly how much damage a weapon actually does. Some sources have lasguns shearing off limbs with ease, and in other cases they might as well be Nerf guns (and ironically, my brother has a Nerfgun that disassembles and is modular, and looks exactly like the image on Pg1) for all the damage they do, and it entirely depends on who is being shot at. Random helper character?


https://youtu.be/O2u1lHC-2C0?t=2m56s

Main, semi-main, or sort-of-a-main character?


https://youtu.be/CbZDMGeNY4s?t=1m13s

 Deadshot wrote:
Lasguns suffer the same cruel fate as 99% of stuff in 40k: the writers fethed up and plot has more relevance that sense.

A lasgun in modern warfare would be a gamechanger due to allthe reasons listed in the OP, certainly in terms of ammo and ease of maintenance.

The issue of it being weak comes from the fact 99% of things in 40k are tougher than humans. Space Marines, Orks, most of the bigger Tyranids, Necrons. Eldar and Tau are as durable but also come with armour capable of taking rounds from 75mm armour penetrating explosive rounds. Then you also have literal Daemons.

I quite like that as a method for aiding suspension of disbelief when it comes to a lot of things in 40k. Close Combat being one of them.

Modern humans are comparatively weak, comparatively slow, lack sophisticated personal body armour, and puncture easily. Thus, a single bullet can often do irreparable damage, or at least sufficient damage to remove them as a threat on the battlefield. Hitting someone with a really sharp axe will do a lot more damage than a bullet, but seeing as the bullet is entirely sufficient and has the benefit of range it doesn't make much sense to hit someone with an axe as a primary combat tactic.

In 40k, we have many, many fighting forces that are tough enough to shrug off small arms fire without losing combat effectiveness, have sophisticated personal body armour that allows them to do the same and/or are significantly faster at closing the distance between them and the enemy (either through biology or technology like jump packs). In that context, hitting them with a bullet might not stop them, but hitting them with the axe (backed up by a genetically enhanced arm swinging it) might just do the trick.

So, Close Combat in the 40k universe is more believable than you think. If you want to find out how good regular human CC is take a couple of Guard blobs, shout 'affix bayonets!' in your best General Melchett voice and footslog them across the board until they can hit the enemy over the head.

Guarantee they'll be slaughtered to a man

As for the relative power of a Lasgun in the fluff, I've always worked under the impression that all fluff stories are told to us by a random drunk who sidled up to you unsolicited in a bar. Could well be true. Could well be utter fiction. This is the 40k universe. There's no internet to verify their claims so it could all be hearsay.

The cold hard arbiter of a weapon's effectiveness is its stats on the tabletop there's no hiding behind different interpretations there

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Lasguns suffer the same cruel fate as 99% of stuff in 40k: the writers fethed up and plot has more relevance that sense.

A lasgun in modern warfare would be a gamechanger due to allthe reasons listed in the OP, certainly in terms of ammo and ease of maintenance.

The issue of it being weak comes from the fact 99% of things in 40k are tougher than humans. Space Marines, Orks, most of the bigger Tyranids, Necrons. Eldar and Tau are as durable but also come with armour capable of taking rounds from 75mm armour penetrating explosive rounds. Then you also have literal Daemons.

I quite like that as a method for aiding suspension of disbelief when it comes to a lot of things in 40k. Close Combat being one of them.

Modern humans are comparatively weak, comparatively slow, lack sophisticated personal body armour, and puncture easily. Thus, a single bullet can often do irreparable damage, or at least sufficient damage to remove them as a threat on the battlefield. Hitting someone with a really sharp axe will do a lot more damage than a bullet, but seeing as the bullet is entirely sufficient and has the benefit of range it doesn't make much sense to hit someone with an axe as a primary combat tactic.

In 40k, we have many, many fighting forces that are tough enough to shrug off small arms fire without losing combat effectiveness, have sophisticated personal body armour that allows them to do the same and/or are significantly faster at closing the distance between them and the enemy (either through biology or technology like jump packs). In that context, hitting them with a bullet might not stop them, but hitting them with the axe (backed up by a genetically enhanced arm swinging it) might just do the trick.

So, Close Combat in the 40k universe is more believable than you think. If you want to find out how good regular human CC is take a couple of Guard blobs, shout 'affix bayonets!' in your best General Melchett voice and footslog them across the board until they can hit the enemy over the head.

Guarantee they'll be slaughtered to a man

As for the relative power of a Lasgun in the fluff, I've always worked under the impression that all fluff stories are told to us by a random drunk who sidled up to you unsolicited in a bar. Could well be true. Could well be utter fiction. This is the 40k universe. There's no internet to verify their claims so it could all be hearsay.

The cold hard arbiter of a weapon's effectiveness is its stats on the tabletop there's no hiding behind different interpretations there

Well I 110% agree with everything up until the last two parts. I've always found the "WHO KNOWS IT MIGHT BE TRUE MIGHT NOT" as a lazy excuse for inconsistancy and retconning. GW just doesn't have the balls to straight up say "this is canon, this is not," because they think giving that freedom to choose appeases everyone and will get more sales.

Also, I hate to say Fluff doesn't equal rules, but unfortunately, due to the nature of the fluff, it doesn't. From a purely gameplay perspective, especially with Imperials, the stats do a good job in terms of physical stats in comparison with others. For example, for Str, T and I, a human = 3, a Space Marine = 4, Custodes = 5 and Primarch 6+. But in comparison with the fluff, T6 is arguably too low for a Primarch, and in other cases like with WS and BS, there seems to be no consistancy. The 40K Guilliman has WS9 but so does Angron in 30K who is among, if not the, best fighter in the setting. Sgt Telion is supposed to be the best shot among all the Space Marines, able to curve bullets round rounds and fire off three shots from a bolt-action in less than a second, but only has BS6 so is only the tiniest bit better, and on par with Grey Knight Grand Masters and Autarchs of 5th Ed, while you have things like Carnifexes which have armour just as tough as Power Armour, yet Marines' best weapon against it has the same penetrative capactity as bolters which don't go through PA, and yet it somehow works. Then the Avatar of Khaine is supposed to be a shard of the God of War, but gets pummelled by any chump with a Thunder Hammer. The simple issue is that the stats aren't consistant and can't be used as a guideline for the fluff except in the general sense of "A human is tougher than a Grot, a Space Marine is tougher than a Tau, a Fleshborer is on par with a Bolt Pistol, a Pulse Rifle is more damaging than a bolter," etc

 Deadshot wrote:

Well I 110% agree with everything up until the last two parts. I've always found the "WHO KNOWS IT MIGHT BE TRUE MIGHT NOT" as a lazy excuse for inconsistancy and retconning. GW just doesn't have the balls to straight up say "this is canon, this is not," because they think giving that freedom to choose appeases everyone and will get more sales.

You see, perhaps it's because I've been used to 40k before anything else, but I always view absolute 'canon' and 'non-canon' as being utterly inimical to the enjoyment of something. As far as I can tell, its only function is to cause massive flame wars between people who like Star Wars and people who like Star Wars: The Expanded Universe or whatever it is.

Or, more relevant, causes intense and largely pointless debate over which convoluted timeline a particular superhero does a particular thing in, which is what happens when you have a poorly managed canon that is still 'canon'. Managing canon is a massive (and expensive) PITA. George Lucas set up an entire internal division of Lucas Arts purely for managing canon conflict.

Plus, it's a founding pillar of the most genius thing that 40k has, and what I'm sure is the secret to its success: that the stories that we make up are just as much canon as the stuff in the books. That single assertion is utterly brilliant. It actually involves us, the consumers, in the very fabric of the universe. It gives us the freedom to create our own homebrew units, characters, armies, worlds and have them be just as legitimate as the 'official' versions. There's no stigma against 'fanfiction' as there is in other IPs. Make some things 'canon' and some things not is a great way to make people who add their own twist to the 40k universe feel inferior/insignificant.

I genuinely believe that that is the foundation for 40k's success. It certainly isn't game mechanics anyway

 Deadshot wrote:

Also, I hate to say Fluff doesn't equal rules, but unfortunately, due to the nature of the fluff, it doesn't. From a purely gameplay perspective, especially with Imperials, the stats do a good job in terms of physical stats in comparison with others. For example, for Str, T and I, a human = 3, a Space Marine = 4, Custodes = 5 and Primarch 6+. But in comparison with the fluff, T6 is arguably too low for a Primarch, and in other cases like with WS and BS, there seems to be no consistancy. The 40K Guilliman has WS9 but so does Angron in 30K who is among, if not the, best fighter in the setting. Sgt Telion is supposed to be the best shot among all the Space Marines, able to curve bullets round rounds and fire off three shots from a bolt-action in less than a second, but only has BS6 so is only the tiniest bit better, and on par with Grey Knight Grand Masters and Autarchs of 5th Ed, while you have things like Carnifexes which have armour just as tough as Power Armour, yet Marines' best weapon against it has the same penetrative capactity as bolters which don't go through PA, and yet it somehow works. Then the Avatar of Khaine is supposed to be a shard of the God of War, but gets pummelled by any chump with a Thunder Hammer. The simple issue is that the stats aren't consistant and can't be used as a guideline for the fluff except in the general sense of "A human is tougher than a Grot, a Space Marine is tougher than a Tau, a Fleshborer is on par with a Bolt Pistol, a Pulse Rifle is more damaging than a bolter," etc

The neatest solution to that is just 'the fluff lies'

I always thought that god-level Primarchs was a stupid idea. Having them as T6 makes them a lot more believable to me Sgt Telion thinks he's the mutt's nuts, but when the chips are down he's not as good as he (or his mates) think he is...

That is on the understanding that the crunch is pretty flawed itself, what with vast power imbalances between pre and post-Necron codices, some rules that don't do a unit justice, and some rules that simply produce awful units. It's just less flawed than pure fluff comparisons so a more solid basis for debate

While a weapon's value in warfare is determined by a balance of factors, its effect against the intended target is among the most important.

You don't hunt elephants with the same gun that is used to hunt doves (and, oddly enough, vice versa). A modern 5.56/5.45 assault rifle issued to infantry represents an adequate balance between man-portability, ammo weight, penetration and the ability to kill and more importantly maim the enemy.

If lasguns were introduced to modern military, and assuming they are about as powerful as a modern assault rifle, they would indeed be an excellent weapon. Absence of recoil, superior accuracy and larger and lighter ammo supply (which can be replenished from a variety of power sources) would be the main factors here, because "standard issue" is already a thing.

In 40K setting though, lasguns are inadequate because they appear to be reliably lethal only against regular humans and lesser targets. It is not quite, but almost like an army of guys with dove-hunting guns fighting an army of elephants.

The lasgun in 40K, therefore, is not a "miracle weapon", it is a sad and inadequate leftover from the days when human soldiers faced other human soldiers on the battlefield. And that is perfectly grimdark...

 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:

The lasgun in 40K, therefore, is not a "miracle weapon", it is a sad and inadequate leftover from the days when human soldiers faced other human soldiers on the battlefield. And that is perfectly grimdark...

Now that's a really interesting insight could even shed some light on the state of the galaxy during the Dark Age of Technology.

What is the history of the Lasgun? I'm assuming it's an STC design. I wonder what it was originally designed for.

As most of the actual warfare was done by the Men of Iron, the most logical use is as a sort of side-arm for people in low-danger frontier colonies. Sort of like civilian shotguns used in the wild. Useful for self defence, but not really a suitable weapon of war. The fact that humanity's footsoldiers are essentially armed with hunting rifles and sent off to face forces armed with automatics is definitely grimdark

Furthermore, if Dark Age of Technology Mankind was as technologically proficient as we're told, then surely they could have made something easily with more punch than a Lasgun. So, we can deduce that the threats encountered by mankind in these days were nowhere near as deadly as the threats encountered in 40k, otherwise they'd have made more impressive self-defence firearms (which is pretty grimdark too!).

Either that or Dark Age of Technology mankind wasn't as supremely technologically capable as the modern Ad Mech cargo-cult leads us to believe. Judging by the other STC constructs we know about (things like Rhinos and Terminator armour) they were more advanced, but certainly not beyond the bounds of current 40k technology.

Perhaps their main advantage was the fact that they were actually structured sensibly. Like a macrocosm version of the Lasgun itself. Technologically they lacked punch, but succeeded due to supreme logistics afforded by the STC.

That definitely seems believable to me.

 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:
While a weapon's value in warfare is determined by a balance of factors, its effect against the intended target is among the most important.

The Imperium mostly fights Orks and other human (Chaos-influenced or not) forces. The lasgun is effective against the majority of those targets. If more powerful weapons are harder to supply they could be less efficient especially considering the numbers of their primary foes.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:

The lasgun in 40K, therefore, is not a "miracle weapon", it is a sad and inadequate leftover from the days when human soldiers faced other human soldiers on the battlefield. And that is perfectly grimdark...

Now that's a really interesting insight could even shed some light on the state of the galaxy during the Dark Age of Technology.

What is the history of the Lasgun? I'm assuming it's an STC design. I wonder what it was originally designed for.

As most of the actual warfare was done by the Men of Iron, the most logical use is as a sort of side-arm for people in low-danger frontier colonies. Sort of like civilian shotguns used in the wild. Useful for self defence, but not really a suitable weapon of war. The fact that humanity's footsoldiers are essentially armed with hunting rifles and sent off to face forces armed with automatics is definitely grimdark

Furthermore, if Dark Age of Technology Mankind was as technologically proficient as we're told, then surely they could have made something easily with more punch than a Lasgun. So, we can deduce that the threats encountered by mankind in these days were nowhere near as deadly as the threats encountered in 40k, otherwise they'd have made more impressive self-defence firearms (which is pretty grimdark too!).

Either that or Dark Age of Technology mankind wasn't as supremely technologically capable as the modern Ad Mech cargo-cult leads us to believe. Judging by the other STC constructs we know about (things like Rhinos and Terminator armour) they were more advanced, but certainly not beyond the bounds of current 40k technology.

Perhaps their main advantage was the fact that they were actually structured sensibly. Like a macrocosm version of the Lasgun itself. Technologically they lacked punch, but succeeded due to supreme logistics afforded by the STC.

That definitely seems believable to me.

Dark Age humans were definitely insanely technologically advanced. As for why lasguns aren't that impressive, well. Lasguns were largely designed for killing, and currently largely used against, humans. And lasguns are still capable of killing Astartes, they just have less killing power vs these types of targets.

I wouldn't say DAOT humans faced lower caliber enemies, more that they faced different enemies. Mostly other humans. And the vast majority of alien races in the galaxy are not any tougher than humans. Countless alien species have been exterminated by humanity during its 30k years of roaming around the galaxy. Even Orks, who all things considered are the toughest individual threat humans face, aren't immune to lasguns. They're perfectly acceptable for killing orks.

Even today, most of the foes the Imperium faces are human or just of similar toughness and threat. Fighting chaos? 99% of the dudes you face will be random human cultists, armed with lasguns and autoguns. Occasionally you'll face some Chaos Space Marines, but the guard has numbers and enough weapons that can deal with power armor its not a big deal that you'll face heavy casualties, since individual human lives are practically worthless. Fighting Tau? They're no tougher than humans, and again you can drown them in numbers. Eldar? again, no tougher than humans. Tyranids? the swarms aren't any tougher than humans, lasguns will mow down gaunts just fine. While the tanks deal with the big monsters.

Every lifeform with an intelligence and body that can still be called human can point the lasgun and shoot. THAT is the biggest advantage. There is no ballistics to take into account (unless we are assuming the silly Gaunts Ghosts laserbullet) and no meaningfull recoil. Very little training is required, compared to assault rifles.

Especially since in 40k the calibers are all rather large -> lots of recoil & slow muzzle velocity -> more bullet drop over distance and high innacuracy at longer range.
Everyone who has shot rifles with larger caliber (e.g. 7,62mm) will know that it requires a bit of training for accurate shooting at combat ranges of 200-400m. Not the best situation for a weapon that needs to work in the hands of almost every citizen of the empire.

That lasguns are more reliable i can hardly believe. There would have to be a bunch of high electric voltage/current components in addition to fine optics and some sophisticated tube or semi conductor (or 40k equivalent) technology. Its unlikely the battery can transmit the entire energy of a single shot in an instant (which would magazines extremely dangerous to handle). So it would likely load over a longer timespan and store the energy in supercapacitors, that can discharge it in a fraction of a second (thus a slower rate of fire).
Such components can be damage quite easily if subjected to physical abuse or heat/water penetration or penetration from projectiles.

Gunpowder weapons are not too difficult to build or repair for a mechanic in the field. Lasguns on the other hand... the key parts can't be bend or hammered into place in a field workshop. Only replaced with proper replacement parts.
So for me it doesnt make sense, that they would be so much more maintaineable compared to autoguns and the likes. Equal they migh be, but much better? na.

Regarding the "ammo availability":
We are talking about energy levels that vaporize organic matter in an instant - in such a short timeframe that it causes a cracking/whipping sound -> a pressure wave of expanding hot air/gas faster than speed of sound.
To restore this amount of energy with a little camp fire would take many many hours/ days. Even with a 100% efficiency solar panel the size of a standard pocket calculators panel (inbuilt into magazines like some artworks suggest) likely multiple weeks/months/years.

Seems pretty silly to me. It makes more sense if they would be charged with a large charger, consisting of an alternator that is driven by a combustion engine. That seems more reasonable.
This would also explain why lascannons rounds in thunderbolts and so on are limited to a small amount of rounds, rather than beeing "unlimited" - the jetengines would sooner be out of fuel before the magazine would be recharged properly.
The chargers would be part of the standard logistical train and smaller variants would also be installable in all vehicles. So as long as there is fuel for the vehicles/engines there would be ammunition resupply available (but only slowly over time.

I don't think a lasgun would be vulnerable to water penetration, since it has no moving parts the gubbins could be water or even air tight. It's possible the power packs have a kind of tape or something over the contacts which is torn/broken/ripped off before/upon insertion into the weapon, keeping the contacts fresh (at least the first time).

The biggest issue I see is with the muzzle lens (objective lens?). I see two ways you could play that, firstly recessed. This makes it protected against physical damage such as smashing or scratching, but it makes cleaning it hardly, since you'd have to dig the mud out of the recess. But how often do you get mud in your muzzle? A soldier would have to point that out to me, but I would assume mud in the barrel was worse for a laser since a solid projectile would just blast it out unless it was really bad mud.
Or, secondly the lens could be flush with the muzzle. This would have the advantage of being easily able to just wipe the end clean of any dirt of dust or whatever, but make it rather vulnerable to scratching.
Or maybe there's a third option, rather than having your traditional convex lens [looks like () ] you could have a lens which is flush with the barrel, and the outside face is slightly concave, leaving you with a lens looking like ( (, you could still make this a converging lens rather happily, so this would give you the advantage of having a slightly recessed lens (although not as protected as an actual recess) whilst still being able to quickly wipe the end clean.

We can never be sure how the Lasgun deals with or bypasses clogged barrel issues, but given the breadth of possible worlds and environments the Guard will fight on, I think we can safely assume it's not a major concern.

Which brings me onto another broad assumption....Lasguns are largely immune to the effects of extreme conditions. Without a solid projectile, heat and cold are less of a concern. No loosing a volley in sub-zero temperature and having the weapon explode for instance.

kirotheavenger wrote:I don't think a lasgun would be vulnerable to water penetration, since it has no moving parts
The biggest issue I see is with the muzzle lens (objective lens?).

whats this obsession with "moving parts" beeing responsible for "weakness" by people ? Guns work fine even after bathing them in mud or having them submerged in water for longer periods. Some work even underwater.
Everything electrical does not like beeing in conducting liquid. There are ways to seal certain parts, but damage to the exterior will cause leaks.
The lens is not really an issue. Just make a shutter on the muzzle, that opens just in time before the shot is fired and then closes again. This will keep out most of the dirt. Your not supposed to stab the barrel into the dirt after all. Everything that comes through the shutter over time needs to be cleaned after battle, comparable to a normal guns barrel. Thats why soldiers get a cleaning kit after all.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Which brings me onto another broad assumption....Lasguns are largely immune to the effects of extreme conditions. Without a solid projectile, heat and cold are less of a concern. No loosing a volley in sub-zero temperature and having the weapon explode for instance.

Have you used your phone in -10°C temperatures outside? Cold is a big concern. Batteries generally dont like cold. No it doesnt explode, but having 1/10th of the charge available is not great... Heat is also a concern. Maybe not heats that are survivable by humans, but 100°C or more is not good for most electrical components either.

Moving parts require maintenance to keep your Dakka in good condition. Lasguns removing that issue reduces supply line headaches, increasing your logistical options.

Electrical components also have a maximum lifetime if you didnt know... And that is often in the same range as mechanical parts. Mechanical parts can be partially fixed by a mechanic, electrical components require a total exchange.

Well no moving parts means you can completely seal it away, whereas solid shots are constantly feeding things in one of of gubbinz and out the other.

I disagree that a solid gun can be fixed by anyone, but a lasgun needs specialists.
Once a guns parts are worn down, they're worn down. Sure you can machine a new part, but you could just rewire it as well.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Once a guns parts are worn down, they're worn down. Sure you can machine a new part, but you could just rewire it as well.

"Wiring up" means connecting pieces. Equivalent to assembling mechanical parts. You cant "wire up", as in "create" a laser or important electrical components (capacitors, transistors, ...) just like that. You can't simply make semiconductor or tube technology in the field. You can machine a broken boltcarrier in a field repairshop. thus you have a new part. The point where handguns fail from excessive wear exceeds the life expectancy of a soldier in battle.

Plus there are moving parts on lasguns as well! Trigger, magazine catch, safety lever, energy slider. There are fittings and other things where seals have to be installed that can fail. Lasguns are disassembled regulary for cleaning (as mentioned in IUP). Electrical components over time degrade just like mechanical parts. If they go, they can burn up - especially high energy components. Anyone claiming lasers and electrical components beeing more failsafe just doesnt have a lot of knowledge about this stuff...

Much though the debate of the reliability of components we think are used in Lasguns is interesting, it's neatly sidestepped by the fact that we don't actually know the specifications of what goes into a Lasgun, but we are told that they're more reliable than standard firearms.

Oh, and you can make a homemade capacitor out of a water bottle and some other bits and pieces. Who knows what's commonly lying around on the battlefields of the 41st millennium

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

To maybe a few million soldiers. In one particular part of the galaxy. Plus, Bolters are more compact and tactically flexible than Pulse Rifles. It's the difference between a submachine gun and a semi-automatic full powered rifle.

The reason why Bolters aren't more common mostly have to do with logistics rather than the Imperium's inability to make enough to supply their soldiers with them. Lasguns are powerful enough for the most common foes an Imperial soldier is likely to face, require far less maintenance, are cheaper to produce and use rechargeable power packs as ammunition. For an army of uncountable billions the Lasgun is the perfect fit. Bolters are cumbersome weapons that can only be used effectively by elite soldiers who train heavily in their exclusive use. Or by officers who really want to make a statement and a bolt pistol just won't do.

Exactly.


It was logistics that led to the switch from the autogun to the lasgun in the 32nd Millennium, despite the autogun, like the bolter, being a superior tactical weapon when compared to the standard issue lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Well no moving parts means you can completely seal it away, whereas solid shots are constantly feeding things in one of of gubbinz and out the other.

I disagree that a solid gun can be fixed by anyone, but a lasgun needs specialists.
Once a guns parts are worn down, they're worn down. Sure you can machine a new part, but you could just rewire it as well.

Most modern military firearms are designed for easy parts swaps, even by people in the know who are not trained gunsmiths. Just very familiar with their weapon.


It stands to reason that autoguns in the 41st Millennium are still easy to maintain, and are more durable than modern, real world military firearms (which are designed and built to work in the harshest of environments). While lasguns might not need to be broken down for cleaning and whatnot, when they break, you will need (as you correctly pointed out) a specialist (i.e. techpriest or other tech savant) to fix the problem because of the higher tech level. Whereas the average trooper, if he or she has access to spares, can swap out most of the parts of an autogun themselves.

Lasguns are only superior in the areas of routine maintenance and logistics.

It's not unlikely that the lasgun started life as a civilian hunting rifle. After all the AR15 was originally designed as a hunting rifle that was converted into the military M16.

I think a lot of the problems with establishing its power are the abstractions ​we use for game balance. Even if the lasgun was the equivalent of a 5.56mm rifle it wouldn't be a weapon that wounds human beings only half the time. The bolter is more the equivalent of a 40mm grenade launcher and I'm pretty sure that's an automatic kill on a human target.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
It's not unlikely that the lasgun started life as a civilian hunting rifle. After all the AR15 was originally designed as a hunting rifle that was converted into the military M16.

I think a lot of the problems with establishing its power are the abstractions ​we use for game balance. Even if the lasgun was the equivalent of a 5.56mm rifle it wouldn't be a weapon that wounds human beings only half the time. The bolter is more the equivalent of a 40mm grenade launcher and I'm pretty sure that's an automatic kill on a human target.

I like the idea the Lasgun was a DAoT hunting rifle. Seems to fit

The way i'd worked 'to hit' and 'to wound' as percentages is that 'hit' doesn't necessarily mean it strikes someone dead in the chest. A bolter 'hit' might mean it detonated a couple of metres away and the shrapnel hit you.

Same thing for 'wound'. As most units are 1 wound, that 1 wound represents a significant enough injury that you're incapacitated from the battle. If soldiers have access to some pretty extreme medical equipment/drugs/stimulants then they may be able to continue to be effective on the batllefield with some fairly grevious injuries.

Lastly, who knows actually how tough baseline humans are in the 40k universe? There's been 38,000 years of evolution under some pretty extreme circumstances, as well as an unknown amount of genetic tampering. It's perfectly believable that if a 40k human was time-warped back to the year 2015 (for the Back to the Future reference) they'd be significantly tougher than any human alive today.

It's a definite possibility.

Thats how i suspend my disbelief anyway

I would say there is too much of a lack of granularity in the tabletop to be a good reference point. Working instead from the novels is a problem itself. But as previous posters have already pointed out, there is a huge lack of consistency - bruising the throat to going through ceramite.or armor literal inches of feet thick.

As for the ability to repair lasguns, I remember in one of the Ghost novel's it mentioned scavenging the dead for repair kits, which leads me to think that the lasgun is itself incrediby easy to repair (though there is a good chance of it exploding). It would likely be highly modular as a result which would also help with refurbishing regiments during down time.

Strip the gun down, ID the part busted, turn in busted part, get the proper requisition hopefully, pray to the Big E that it doesn't bust again for a couple more thousand years.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
It's not unlikely that the lasgun started life as a civilian hunting rifle. After all the AR15 was originally designed as a hunting rifle that was converted into the military M16.

I think a lot of the problems with establishing its power are the abstractions ​we use for game balance. Even if the lasgun was the equivalent of a 5.56mm rifle it wouldn't be a weapon that wounds human beings only half the time. The bolter is more the equivalent of a 40mm grenade launcher and I'm pretty sure that's an automatic kill on a human target.

I can get behind the idea of the basic "modern" military lasgun design originally being a civilian sporting weapon in ages past. After all, the Terminator Tactical Dreadnought Armor was based on civilian mining suits used during the Dark Age of Technology. And considering the hints we've had over the years regarding the power and superiority of Dark Age weaponry, and the third rate nature of that era's leftovers being considered the "pinnacle" of Imperial technology, it would make sense.



The original ArmaLite AR-15 wasn't conceived as a hunting rifle. Eugene Stoner, while at ArmaLite, designed it as a scaled down version of the AR-10, responding to an Army CONARC request for a lightweight .223/5.56mm rifle. Colt ended up with the rights to both rifles in 1959. The original AR-15 was a select-fire military weapon. The reason that the name "AR-15" is used to refer to semi-auto only Stoner pattern rifles today is because of Colt trademarking "AR-15", and marketing their civilian semi-auto versions as the "Colt AR-15", after the military adopted the original AR-15 as the M-16 (after some modifications by Colt at the DoD's request). And the name "AR-15" stuck for any civvie version as a result, even though these other manufacturers have their own model designations because of the Colt trademark.


There are popular hunting variants of the AR-15 and AR-10 type rifles, in various calibers, on the market today. But it's another case of military rifle and ammo design influencing the civilian market, much like the Mauser action and .30-06 Springfield cartridge.

 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:
While a weapon's value in warfare is determined by a balance of factors, its effect against the intended target is among the most important.

You don't hunt elephants with the same gun that is used to hunt doves (and, oddly enough, vice versa). A modern 5.56/5.45 assault rifle issued to infantry represents an adequate balance between man-portability, ammo weight, penetration and the ability to kill and more importantly maim the enemy.

If lasguns were introduced to modern military, and assuming they are about as powerful as a modern assault rifle, they would indeed be an excellent weapon. Absence of recoil, superior accuracy and larger and lighter ammo supply (which can be replenished from a variety of power sources) would be the main factors here, because "standard issue" is already a thing.

In 40K setting though, lasguns are inadequate because they appear to be reliably lethal only against regular humans and lesser targets. It is not quite, but almost like an army of guys with dove-hunting guns fighting an army of elephants.

The lasgun in 40K, therefore, is not a "miracle weapon", it is a sad and inadequate leftover from the days when human soldiers faced other human soldiers on the battlefield. And that is perfectly grimdark...

For a contrary view: The guard's primary foes are humans and orks, and to a much lesser extent tyranids.
*Humans- as noted its excellent.
.
*Orks- perfectly fine here as well. In the fluff it is indeed capable of taking down orks (Fifteen Hours).

Frankly in either case its not going to be the lasgun creating casualties, but artillery and other things that go boom.

Quickjager wrote:As for the ability to repair lasguns, I remember in one of the Ghost novel's it mentioned scavenging the dead for repair kits, which leads me to think that the lasgun is itself incrediby easy to repair (though there is a good chance of it exploding). It would likely be highly modular as a result which would also help with refurbishing regiments during down time.
Strip the gun down, ID the part busted, turn in busted part, get the proper requisition hopefully, pray to the Big E that it doesn't bust again for a couple more thousand years.

I dont see how that would make the lasgun special compared to other things - salvaging functioning pieces or parts of equipment to repair damage or replace stuff has been employed in basically every warfare theater IRL.
Conventional powder weapons would have the exact same trade as the lasgun in this regard. Only exceptions are maybe selfmade weapons by hive gangs and the likes.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:It's not unlikely that the lasgun started life as a civilian hunting rifle. After all the AR15 was originally designed as a hunting rifle that was converted into the military M16.

I think a lot of the problems with establishing its power are the abstractions ​we use for game balance. Even if the lasgun was the equivalent of a 5.56mm rifle it wouldn't be a weapon that wounds human beings only half the time. The bolter is more the equivalent of a 40mm grenade launcher and I'm pretty sure that's an automatic kill on a human target.

The bolter comes in many different calibers, but its certainly not the same power of a 40mm grenadelauncher round. Its not only the caliber but also the volume of explosive thats important. Bolters are basically submachineguns with oversized caliber using high explosive rounds. Due to the large rounds you can't take many of them with you - so its not wise to equip everyone with bolters. Logistical nightmare and for troops that only hit every 20th bullet the whole squad will run dry very quickly. Thats why its astartes and elite/veteran humans get to use it - they can hit consistently and therefore dont need so much ammo.

Ynneadwraith wrote:Much though the debate of the reliability of components we think are used in Lasguns is interesting, it's neatly sidestepped by the fact that we don't actually know the specifications of what goes into a Lasgun, but we are told that they're more reliable than standard firearms.
Oh, and you can make a homemade capacitor out of a water bottle and some other bits and pieces. Who knows what's commonly lying around on the battlefields of the 41st millennium

If you read the infantry mans uplifting primer it reads like a gear / tactics guide for RL korean war/ vietnam war soldiers in terms of equipment "sophistication". Considering that Lasguns are made on many worlds in large quantities, its not unobtainium or mystically arkane - otherwise it would get same treatment as the plasma weapons.
You can make a capacitor on your own if someone shows you how to do it. Except it will not reach nowhere near the energy capacity required for powering a laser that can vaporize flesh of humans/xenos or be light enough to mount it inside or outside the housing of a lasgun. If Humans in 40k would possess this ingenuity and knowledge, they wouldnt have stagnating technology or pray to a machinegod everytime they flip a switch on a machine.

 Keep wrote:

Ynneadwraith wrote:Much though the debate of the reliability of components we think are used in Lasguns is interesting, it's neatly sidestepped by the fact that we don't actually know the specifications of what goes into a Lasgun, but we are told that they're more reliable than standard firearms.
Oh, and you can make a homemade capacitor out of a water bottle and some other bits and pieces. Who knows what's commonly lying around on the battlefields of the 41st millennium

If you read the infantry mans uplifting primer it reads like a gear / tactics guide for RL korean war/ vietnam war soldiers in terms of equipment "sophistication". Considering that Lasguns are made on many worlds in large quantities, its not unobtainium or mystically arkane - otherwise it would get same treatment as the plasma weapons.
You can make a capacitor on your own if someone shows you how to do it. Except it will not reach nowhere near the energy capacity required for powering a laser that can vaporize flesh of humans/xenos or be light enough to mount it inside or outside the housing of a lasgun. If Humans in 40k would possess this ingenuity and knowledge, they wouldnt have stagnating technology or pray to a machinegod everytime they flip a switch on a machine.

It's not unobtanium or mystically arcane to your average Guardsman, but it might as well be to us being technology from 38,000 years in the future. Why does it need to be like plasma weapons for it to be more advanced than we are capable of producing now?

You're also making an assumption on the capabilities of a human 38,000 years in the future based on what we are able to make now. For all we know, it might be child'splay to construct a capacitor capable of functioning in a lasgun from bits and pieces lying around the battlefield of the 41st millennium.

However, why does being able to pull off a gimmick like making a capacitor mean that they wouldn't have stagnating technology? They could be doing that the exact same way as every other bit of manufacturing is being undertaken, by half-remembered facts from thousands of years ago remembered through religious chants no actual understanding required

The fact that you couldn't reliably shoot the weapon in all types of environments and weather conditions is a hard pass for me. Fog, sand storms, rain, mud etc... wouldn't the weapon be rendered useless?

usmcmidn wrote:
The fact that you couldn't reliably shoot the weapon in all types of environments and weather conditions is a hard pass for me. Fog, sand storms, rain, mud etc... wouldn't the weapon be rendered useless?

Yeah pretty much, which is a bit of an issue for suspension of disbelief.

Personally, and it's not exactly a strict interpretation of the fluff, but I think 'Lasguns' work better with their fluff description in action if they basically fire low-yield plasma bolts. But hey, ho.

Actually, thinking about it. There's another way to use lasers as a weapon beyond just having one powerful enough to kill someone. There's technology in the works now that uses a laser to ionise the air between the gun and the target, and then dumps a massive electrical discharge down that ionised path. It's less energy-intensive than a straight laser powerful enough to kill.

Plus, the electrical charge would make a bl**dy loud 'CRACK' as it's discharged, which fits with the fluff depiction of how they sound.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure lasguns are not actually laser weapons, but either a pulse-plasma weapon or an ionized pathway weapon.

I'm more favorable of the pulsed-plasma route because las weapons still work in space.

Either weapon type would still have reduced effectiveness in rain or other atmospheric conditions, but that applies to pretty much any weapon on a technical level. but any such loss in capability isn't going to happen at the closer ranges a firefight in the rain would occur in. A soldier's visibility is going to be reduced to well below any distance at which his gun would peter out.

I'm just going to jump in here and say that one really major advantage of a lasgun over the likes of an autogun/modern assault rifle is cost of manufacture. A lasgun may be incredibly cheap to produce (I think I've read that it can be constructed from basically any material and still function, but don't quote me on that), but mainly in terms of ammunition.

While the obvious thing is that they simply use battery power, to be simple about it, think about the cost of ammunition the IMperium would have if every man was armed with a solid round weapon. The IG numbers in the decatillions or more, in fact, most sources don't even put a number to it, simply saying "uncountable" or similar. How much would it cost in terms of currency, raw materials and manufacturing time to make the rounds, compared to a Lasgun mag, which is in essence a large battery? Considering this is a society where fusion reactors are extremely common an can be tiny (Space Marine backpacks all have one), I think its simply more sensible to make a one-off battery pack that can be constantly recharged (even from non-electrical sources, such as heat or light) that hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of rounds every single week. That's no to mention actually having to ship and transport those rounds from Forge World to battlefield, and this doesn't even take into account the unreliability of travel in the 41st Millennium, the time it would take for a Priest to say 3 Hail the Omnissiah for each bullet casing, inscribe each one with the proper runes, and then have it all blown up and lost when an Eldar Corsair fleet attacks your supply line.

The thing about bullets is that you'd need to ship either them or the manufactorums to make them across a massive distance. Supplying huge numbers of soldiers with physical bullets or supplying the ship or ground based military factories to make them in a setting where human FTL travel is notoriously unreliable is a terrible idea. I mean, the Allies had enough trouble supplying bullets across the atlantic and pacific oceans in world war two. Imagine the difficulty when you scale the number of troops up tremendously and scale the distance up exponentially. And also the ocean is full of Kaiju who want to eat your boats.

Rechargable batteries are just infinitely more convenient logistically.

The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

"Commissar we're out of ammo and the 'nids are closing in, what do we do?"

"There's only one thing we can do sergeant."

"What's that ma'am?"

"DANCE!"

 Kain wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

"Commissar we're out of ammo and the 'nids are closing in, what do we do?"

"There's only one thing we can do sergeant."

"What's that ma'am?"

"DANCE!"

That might actually be a viable tactic. I could just imagine the Nids stopping dead to reconsider this scene. I imagine conversation being something like this

Hormagaunt: "Ughhh..."

Synapse: "Boss, they're dancing..."

Hive Mind "We probably shouldn't absorb them, they'll make us ret***ed"

perhaps that's why Imperial Guard tanks have no suspension - the bone-rattling ride helps charge the passengers' lasguns.

Leman Russes don't have lascannons, just well rattled lasguns

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
perhaps that's why Imperial Guard tanks have no suspension - the bone-rattling ride helps charge the passengers' lasguns.

I thought that had torsion bar suspension.

So In theory, you could shake a lasgun when you run out of ammo and manage to keep firing because Lasgun physics?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
So In theory, you could shake a lasgun when you run out of ammo and manage to keep firing because Lasgun physics?

I don't think you'd get the chance but it might work. I say that because imagine Recruit number 1387246872424990248-T, AKA, Guardsman Pyle, shaking his gun when he runs out of ammo. He'd have a techpriest and Commissar Hartman over asking " What is this Ratling Rick gak? What in the name of The God-Emperor are you animals doing to my rifle? Why is this chicken-gak excuse of a guardsman shaking his magazine? Why is Private Pyle holding that weapon? Why aren't you affixing your bayonet?"

 Deadshot wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

"Commissar we're out of ammo and the 'nids are closing in, what do we do?"

"There's only one thing we can do sergeant."

"What's that ma'am?"

"DANCE!"

That might actually be a viable tactic. I could just imagine the Nids stopping dead to reconsider this scene. I imagine conversation being something like this

Hormagaunt: "Ughhh..."

Synapse: "Boss, they're dancing..."

Hive Mind "We probably shouldn't absorb them, they'll make us ret***ed"

Another victory for Lady Commissar Boogiera.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The ability of the lasgun power pack to taker a charge from an electrical supply or convert light or heat energy is another of those "magic" things that the audience takes for granted, too.

I can't help thinking that I bet some types can be charged by shaking, too, like self-winding watches.

The idea of grimdark Imperial soldiers fighting with clockwork skeleton-watch-style laser weapons is really, really appealing to the inner steampunk in me...

Edit: So that's why Catachans have such massive forearms! Here was me thinking that it was mostly down to a steady supply of 'Saucy Sisters (of Battle)' magazine...

Converting heat energy to ammo has a few interesting implications too.

"Sir! Our power-packs are running in empty!"

"Alright men, here's what we're going to do. I want all of you to hold out your weapon in front of you,and on the count of three Charge those burna boys! With any luck the heat from the flamers will recharge our lasguns."

"But sir, won't that lead to us being scorched to death, then being stuck in close combat with orks?"

"Hmm... New plan men! Hold your weapon out and charge, but this time Affix Bayonets too!"

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Converting heat energy to ammo has a few interesting implications too.

"Sir! Our power-packs are running in empty!"

"Alright men, here's what we're going to do. I want all of you to hold out your weapon in front of you,and on the count of three Charge those burna boys! With any luck the heat from the flamers will recharge our lasguns."

"But sir, won't that lead to us being scorched to death, then being stuck in close combat with orks?"

"Hmm... New plan men! Hold your weapon out and charge, but this time Affix Bayonets too!"

I really want to play a game in the character of General Melchett from Blackadder and just shout 'CHARGE' and footslog all my Guardsmen across the field into combat, while my general sits on an objective right at the back surrounded by tanks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I really want to play a game in the character of General Melchett from Blackadder and just shout 'CHARGE' and footslog all my Guardsmen across the field into combat, while my general sits on an objective right at the back surrounded by tanks.

Don't worry men, we'll be right behind you! About 25 miles behind to be precise.

I'll preface all Orders by shouting 'DARLING!'

This is going to be awesome!

So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

That's basically something that 40k simply doesn't have, for whatever reason. Everyone uses various special weapons instead.

Although there is that new weapon the Militarum Tempestus get - that's basically a rapid-fire version of their standard hellgun.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

Because those are HEAVY weapons teams, who carry weapons too big for a single man to operate like Heavy Bolters. They are supposed to entrench, fire like all hell broke loose (most likely it did) and stay there until they are relieved of duty (which means they or the enemy are dead). Modern soldiers get SAW because it helps them win the fight and stay alive, whereas the average Guardsman is not supposed to survive. A lasgun is given to a soldier so he can fight back somewhat, but its still worth more than their life, and is relatively cheap to produce. A SAW would be more expensive and be completely useless because the holdier dies within an hour as he is chucked into the meat grinder. Its a completely pointless thing to do.

Its like this: YOu have a goldfish. Its going to die in 3 weeks. You could buy premium goldfish food, 18 servings, $30. This means you need 2 so it can eat once a day. $60. Or you can just buy the generic, paper flakes for $5, which will last 4 months. With the extra money saved, you could buy 3 more goldfish. Same as guardsman. The savings between giving out a SAW and another lasgun means you could train another squad of Guardsman for the grinder. Either way, you're goldfish and you're guardsman will be dead by Tuesday.

AGain you're not saying why the heavy weapons teams don't have a laser generated heavy weapon (light multi laser).

And its your theory about the lasgun and the trooper is meh. The same argument is made about all the Guard, and they still get heavy weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, orbital atillery blah blah.

If a lasgun is excellent for logistics then its logical that they employ a crew served automatic fire support weapon as well-hence my earliler notation about the multilaser.

 Frazzled wrote:
AGain you're not saying why the heavy weapons teams don't have a laser generated heavy weapon (light multi laser).

And its your theory about the lasgun and the trooper is meh. The same argument is made about all the Guard, and they still get heavy weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, orbital atillery blah blah.

If a lasgun is excellent for logistics then its logical that they employ a crew served automatic fire support weapon as well-hence my earliler notation about the multilaser.

Apologies, I misunderstood your point.

Lasweaponry in general has poor Armour penetration, that's why. Look at the tabletop stats as a reference. ML is Str 6 AP6, vs HB Str 5 Ap 4. The ML is slightly more powerful, but cant even pierce the average Guardsman's flak armour, whereas the HB can mow through not only enemy humans except the incredibly rare PA human, almost all Ork, Tau and Eldar foot soldiers, as well as the lighter Necron infantry and some of the medium Tyranids like Warriors. Obviously, the fluff and rules are not exactly lined up but it gives a frame of reference to the capacities of both.

With a heavy weapon or SAW you are looking for more stopping power and more penetration than your standard issue rifle. The ML is superbly more powerful than the Lasgun but lacks the penetration, where they HB does both. Plus, the HB is a weapon already fitted to so many vehicles that the Imperium produces the ammunition in the quadrillions.

It could also be a matter of efficiency. Where the lasgun is small and man-portable, using relatively little power, the ML might require a battery so large that it wouldn't be man-portable, and the man-portable battery such as used in a Lascannon, too small to run a sustained or high ROF as a SAW ML variant would be doing. It's fine for a Lascannon, which fires a single shot, then swaps out to recharge while another takes it place, or fires a few shots then swaps, but for a high ROF, high powered laser weapon, maybe not.

I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Well its Government policy. You get the odd Commissar or commander who cares, like Cain or Gaunt, who's novels are more based on contemporary band of brothers stories and films than general IG doctrine. Its not a meme, human beings are 10 a penny in the Imperium and are treated as such; Expendable and inexhaustable assets.

The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

The Imperium's population, and the spare manpower they generate, is insanely massive.

If we assumed that the Imperium's ~1 million planets on average have a population equal to modern day Earth, we end up with a population of 7,390,000,000,000,000. Thats 7.39 quadrillion people.

With a growth rate of 1/2%(well below modern earth), the Imperium has an increase in population of 369,500,000,000,000. That's 369.5 trillion.

The Imperium would have hundreds of trillions of recruitable people each year before they had to worry about negative growth rates.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Frazzled wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Yes, a bullet is cheap as dirt and you can buy 1 inch of dirt with the lives of a thousand men. Humanity in 40k breeds faster than they can make and build weaponry, especially when each bullet needs 3 Hail Maries and a dip in holy oil to make sure it works right. And you also assume the Imperium has social welfare. They provide jobs for everyone to do, and give them enough to survive on. The work people do is worth infinitely more to the Imperium than the rewards they receive.

usmcmidn wrote:A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

You're still thinking in terms of modern warfare and not future warfare with aliens. A SAW can take the same round as the rifle, but in a fight where the enemy can just shrug off your shot like its nothing, firing those bullets 3 times faster is totally pointless. You wouldn't fire your M4a1 at an Abrams, its gonna do gak sll squared, and you wouldn't do gak all with a M27 either. Suspression weapons are in reality a deterrant, you fire it to say "I have a SAW, back the feth up" but if all the enemy soldiers were bulletproof a la Superman, it wouldn't deter them. Similarly, if you're Lasgun isn't keeping the Ork or Nid at bay, a lasrifle that shoots 3 times faster wont do the job either. For that you need better penetration to get past their armour, and a high stopping power (Str) to actually hurt them in the first place. Furthermore, when on the offensive, the IG dont need to suppress enemies because they have A) Artillery B) the intention of getting shot to waste ammunition. When on the defense, as stated, the heavier, hard-hitting Heavy Bolter does a much better job that a LasMG

No, the Human is worth less than the bullet it takes to kill him.

Yes, they have to pay to feed him and ship him across space, but that doesn't make that guardsmen any more valuable than another person. Guardsmen are cheaper to replace than equipment.

None of the infantry the Guard faces can ignore Las shots, and having squad dies with weapons that fire faster is a good idea.

 Bobthehero wrote:
None of the infantry the Guard faces can ignore Las shots, and having squad dies with weapons that fire faster is a good idea.

Infantry that can ignore or pretty much ignore Lasguns; Chaos Marines, Ork Eavy Armour, Tau Battlesuits, Eldar Wraithguard/blades, Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes, Lictors, Genestealers, Biovores, Pyrovores, Shrikes, Primes, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, any Necron heavier than a Warrior, any Daemon. Essentially anything denoted by a T4 or 4+ save on the table top, is far too tough or well armoured to expect their flashlight to damage. They may well do some harm, but dont count on it.

Other things the Guard are most definitely going to face that ignores their weapon: Terminators, Meganobs, any Monstrous Creature in the Nid Codex, most Necron heavy infantry, Eldar Wraithlords, Ctan, vehicles, Tau Riptides. Basically anything with a T5 or above, or a 2+ save, any Daemon.

Things can probably tank a fair few lasshots: All MEQ, all Orks, all Daemons, all Tau, all Eldar, all Tyranids apart from the Gaunts and Rippers.

Things that the Lasgun is a reliable and viable option for killing; Humans not wearing Flak armour or better. So this means Chaos Cultists, Gretchin, and unarmed civilians.

It might be able to tank a few lasgun shots, but when you got 10+ guardsmen shooting, you better take cover, now add one guardman having as much firepower as 3-4 other guardsmen, it makes quite a difference.

Also why Chaos WArrior can ignore lasguns but MEQ can tank a fair few shots?

Regardless, nothing T6 and less is immune to mass fire is my point and having guardsmen contributing more to that is not a bad thing.

Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

I absolutely agree that higher Imperial command has a callous disregard for life,playing a game of politics more than one of war.
But from ~regimental level downwards you start getting things much more like modern warfare. Every book I have read detailing the deployment of Imperial Guardsmen shows them as being used rather similar to how a logical military would work. Guard may be innumerable, but so are the Guard's enemies.
The idea of just literally throwing Guardsmen at the enemy with no regard for anything else is not supported by anything. Not fluff, not rules, not logic, not physics. The only time I have ever heard anything like this was Kuriskov or whatever his name was in the old Guard codex, who actually literally did do this. But he's the exception not the rule, he was a character in the codex because of that being his way of waging war, not because he's John Doe the Imperial commander.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Throwing men at the enemy until they run out makes zero sense.
You have to grow those humans until adult hood, that's a lot of food you're putting in. You have to transport them. And if they genuinely had no purpose other than to die why does the Imperial Guard put so much effort into getting their boys home again? Flak vests, lasguns, command structures.

In the fluff, someone like Gaunt isn't an anomaly because he doesn't drown the enemy in bodies, in Gaunt's Ghosts every regiment they encounter fights with some degree of logic. The most backwards Imperial fighting style I've yet read about is the Aexegarins whom fight a WWI+1 level of attrition. But they're still building trenches, burying dead and doing all the stuff they did in WWI to not-die.

The idea of Lord Marshal Zzap Brannigan's Imperial Guard tactica is amusing, it's up there with 'drive me closer so I hit them with my sword'. But it's not actually supported by the fluff, gameplay or even the laws of physics.
Especially when you consider that las weapons + generator = infinite power.

The issue is you are looking at humans as being the primary tool on the battlefield. Thats not the case in 40k.

40k humans are lasgun delivery systems, which necessitates some protection and other investment, but they are in practically unlimited supply. They're going to be draining your food resources anyway, so you might as well use them.

The Guardsmen themselves of course don't want to die, and will attempt to stay alive. But the attitude of the higher command is going to view them as expendable. If they survive, then you've managed to create some veterans who might actually be worth something and you're ahead. But its no big deal if they die, because you have trillions more coming up behind them.

You're not going to waste them, but the definition of waste is rather loose. There is practically no number of losses as far as body count goes that is unacceptable. If you can capture a planet by throwing waves upon waves of guardsmen at the enemy, then that is what will get done. If there is an easier way that doesn't involve losing tons of guardsmen, they'll do that, but only because its easier. Not because losing guardsmen is a problem.

I absolutely agree that higher Imperial command has a callous disregard for life,playing a game of politics more than one of war.
But from ~regimental level downwards you start getting things much more like modern warfare. Every book I have read detailing the deployment of Imperial Guardsmen shows them as being used rather similar to how a logical military would work. Guard may be innumerable, but so are the Guard's enemies.
The idea of just literally throwing Guardsmen at the enemy with no regard for anything else is not supported by anything. Not fluff, not rules, not logic, not physics. The only time I have ever heard anything like this was Kuriskov or whatever his name was in the old Guard codex, who actually literally did do this. But he's the exception not the rule, he was a character in the codex because of that being his way of waging war, not because he's John Doe the Imperial commander.

The reason all the books you read are like that is because "Affix Bayonets! Charge!" Doesn't make a good novel. A novel putting grimdark bullet sponges being playing out the plot of Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket or Saving Private Ryan is a much more entertaining book, because its more relatable.

But here is where it does follow fluff; Regimental Commander chooses to save men instead of taking ground; Friendly Neighbourhood Commissar comes along and BLAMS him. He promotes the 2IC to in charge. Rinse and repeat until he finds a leader who'll follow company policy and take the enemy ground.


Also, to readdress, shooting a tank with 5.56 isnt going to do gak, whether there's 40 rounds a minute or 400 coming at it. Looking to fluff, can you name me a single time a Lasgun ever took down a Carnifex, Wraithlord, Destroyer or Terminator? It didn't, because those creatures shrug off such meagre firepower every time. A lasgun may be as powerful as an assault rifle, AKA, an autogun, but such weapons are insignicant compared to almost any other weapon in the setting.

Even when it isn't novels, or when the tactics of the Guard are purely a secondary foot note in the book next to for example the Astartes, the Guard are playing smart. The only time I ever heard of Imperial Guard using human-wave tactics pure and simple was that commander Kursikov guy, whom through conscripts at fortifications till the fortifications gave out. But those were firstly conscripts not enlisted me, and secondly he was the exception to the rule, and as such earnt himself some rules in the codex.

There's a difference between pushing your luck to take the ground, and a suicidal charge which is going to get all those men killed and still not claim the objective.

I don't see how that is relevant, it's almost like Guardsmen don't often find themselves staring down a Carnifex and always have support weapons anyways.

 Frazzled wrote:
They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.

IG are not the "alpha foxtrott i'm 6clicks oscar mike freedom special operators". Never have been. And as such they are not kitted out to their teeth with medic, marksman, GL boy, AT soldier and all the gak modern armies have all in one squad. They use WW1 and WW2 tactics and force organization. In WW1 machineguns where heavy weapons. This is still the case in 40k. They have medium and heavy machinegun teams, grenadelaunchers etc. More than enough force multipliers for them to sting in numbers.

a "SAW" is a light machine gun, it just shoots common riflemans projectiles with slightly increased fire rate, bigger ammobox and better cooling. Useless against anything that is not common infantry, just like lasguns. Which is why it makes no sense to use them. LMG also requires 2 persons to carry enough ammo.

CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot. Honestly, not every regiments are the DKoK or the Mordians or the Valhallans. You got the Harakonis, the Elysians, the Cadians and even the Steel Legion to consider.

Carnifex aren't infantry anyway, there's Beast Slayer shells for those kind of things (tho I did kill one with lasguns on the TT, so y'know, tells you something...)

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So how come they don't have a SAW equivalent version? I can buy that the multilaser battery is too large except for a large crew served weapon. Taking that as a given why is there not a squad auto version. To keep in line with the lasgun itself it could use the same size batteries, but either multiple ones or require more frequent reloads?

It'd be pointless given the life expectancy and style of the Imperial Guard. For a start, each Guardsman has a life expectancy measured in hours once they hit the battlefield. On top of that, the IG operates on the idea that each squad should be dedicated to a particular task. The platoon has HWS, SWS, Snipers, Infantry and other specialists, each doing their job and only their job because to mix n match in a platoon who are expected to die within the week is a waste of munitions and time. The Infantry squad either charges into the enemy to soak up bullets, or tie the enemy for a few minutes while tanks are brought to bear, or give the artillery a target to aim at, or something similar. A lasgun does the job because its meant to fire off a few rounds and then the wielder dies. A SAW would do the same. In terms of defending, as a rapid-fire LMG of sorts, Heavy Weapon Squads or Teams within the Infantry unit do the same job with a Heavy Bolter, but can be bigger, faster and better because they are a static defence.

You're not getting it. Why are "heavy weapon teams" (which is what I was referring to (remember they are not separate from their squad, the ability to change them is only a gaming pricing function) not also wielding some sort of SAW weapon? All the arguments about lasguns hold for squad support fire as well. After all, thats why they typically have the same caliber in modern armies, for ease of logistics. I sense a modelling opportunity...

Because those are HEAVY weapons teams, who carry weapons too big for a single man to operate like Heavy Bolters. They are supposed to entrench, fire like all hell broke loose (most likely it did) and stay there until they are relieved of duty (which means they or the enemy are dead). Modern soldiers get SAW because it helps them win the fight and stay alive, whereas the average Guardsman is not supposed to survive. A lasgun is given to a soldier so he can fight back somewhat, but its still worth more than their life, and is relatively cheap to produce. A SAW would be more expensive and be completely useless because the holdier dies within an hour as he is chucked into the meat grinder. Its a completely pointless thing to do.

Its like this: YOu have a goldfish. Its going to die in 3 weeks. You could buy premium goldfish food, 18 servings, $30. This means you need 2 so it can eat once a day. $60. Or you can just buy the generic, paper flakes for $5, which will last 4 months. With the extra money saved, you could buy 3 more goldfish. Same as guardsman. The savings between giving out a SAW and another lasgun means you could train another squad of Guardsman for the grinder. Either way, you're goldfish and you're guardsman will be dead by Tuesday.

While that's a very well made point, I just want to highlight for the benefit of many animals out there that Goldfish are meant to live for a hell of a lot longer than 3 weeks! Usually a good few years. If they're dying sooner it's usual a problem with water toxicity/acidity levels that people never really think to look at.

tl;dr I care more about fish than Guardsmen's lives. Must be a Commissar in an alternative universe. Or an Ethereal if we want to go with the (slightly bizarre) meme that Tau are fish-people

That Tau = fish thing is an example of an "ethnic slur" developed IRL specifically to demean a fictional race. I think it started as a reference to a greatly despised power gamer tactic in 4th where Firewarriors shot from behind their transports (Devilfish); the so-called Fish of Fury. Other Tau vehicles are also named after marine life. Combine this with the in-setting xenophobia of the IoM and the fact that Tau have been generally controversial among 40k fans since GW introduced them ... aaaaand the inherent creepiness of Tau culture.

 Deadshot wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is large enough and has the population to be able to use human soldiers as expendable assets. If thousands or tens of thousands are lost to retake a planet from cultists, then the cultists have lost a planet and the IG has gained a planet, only there are so many more guardsmen and potential (read: conscriptable) guardsmen out there compared to the number of cultists out there that even if five or more guardsmen were lost for every cultist defeated the IoM would still be winning in numbers.

They still have to have weaponry and force multipliers however. Else the guard wouldn't be equipped with anything but a rock.




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 Grey Templar wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think all guard follow the 'they're worth less than the enemies bullets' philosophy.
That's just an amusing meme that people take too literally.

Actually, its quite literal. Guardsmen literally are worth less then the bullets it takes to kill them.

Thats not a physical possibility and goes against much of the fluff, and fundamental concepts of economics (not 40K writer's biggest strength). You have to shipp all those bodies across space, and you have to expand vast sums to "grow" that human asset asset. Not to mention the foodstuffs and other support needed to keep that human alive in the field and all the kit you just made for that guy.

A bullet is cheap as dirt.

Yes, a bullet is cheap as dirt and you can buy 1 inch of dirt with the lives of a thousand men. Humanity in 40k breeds faster than they can make and build weaponry, especially when each bullet needs 3 Hail Maries and a dip in holy oil to make sure it works right. And you also assume the Imperium has social welfare. They provide jobs for everyone to do, and give them enough to survive on. The work people do is worth infinitely more to the Imperium than the rewards they receive.

usmcmidn wrote:A "SAW" doesn't have to be a weapon that has "more" or "better" stopping power. It just needs to suppress the enemy. In the Marines our Squad Automatic Weapon is the M27 IAR which is basically a more expensive M4a1. It's automatic and accurate but uses the same bullet as the M4 carbine. With its role it doesn't need to be a heavy hitting weapon. Just needs to be able to effectively suppress the enemy either by volume of fire (the M249 LMG which is still used at the company level) or by accurate suppression (the new M27 IAR, fire team level)

Realistically, the guard would have a SAW in their squad but it's likely overlooked. The weapon would likely be the same strength but fires a little bit faster and is a little more accurate. However you couldn't really represent it on the tabletop game because of the heavy bolter profile, multi-laser profile etc... so it is likely overlooked.

So in short they very likely have it, but it's overlooked in the game.

You're still thinking in terms of modern warfare and not future warfare with aliens. A SAW can take the same round as the rifle, but in a fight where the enemy can just shrug off your shot like its nothing, firing those bullets 3 times faster is totally pointless. You wouldn't fire your M4a1 at an Abrams, its gonna do gak sll squared, and you wouldn't do gak all with a M27 either. Suspression weapons are in reality a deterrant, you fire it to say "I have a SAW, back the feth up" but if all the enemy soldiers were bulletproof a la Superman, it wouldn't deter them. Similarly, if you're Lasgun isn't keeping the Ork or Nid at bay, a lasrifle that shoots 3 times faster wont do the job either. For that you need better penetration to get past their armour, and a high stopping power (Str) to actually hurt them in the first place. Furthermore, when on the offensive, the IG dont need to suppress enemies because they have A) Artillery B) the intention of getting shot to waste ammunition. When on the defense, as stated, the heavier, hard-hitting Heavy Bolter does a much better job that a LasMG

The vast majority of Guard face human foes and maybe Orks. Against them, having a SAW is beneficial. I would like to think they would have it amongst their squads.

Like I said above, a SAW or LMG is simply a type of weapon that 40k never bothered with originally.

the storm bolter is arguably a version of that for Marines (and the Sisters of Battle seem to employ it in precisely that role), but until the Miltarum Tempestus got their double-barrelled hotshot lasgun thingy, there was never a laser equivalent. Frazzled's right; there probably should be one, but ...

I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

 Bobthehero wrote:
CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot.

mechanized infantry and "drop troops" where used in WW2... Like i said. Their squad structure and armament resembles the world wars and early cold war, not modern military. And there was no widespread use of LMG until fairly recently. (With advance of body armor the trend is going backwards as well).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

 Keep wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
CAdians in Cadian Blood certainly use more modern tactics, with mechanized infantry and whatnot.

mechanized infantry and "drop troops" where used in WW2... Like i said. Their squad structure and armament resembles the world wars and early cold war, not modern military. And there was no widespread use of LMG until fairly recently. (With advance of body armor the trend is going backwards as well).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

Well SAWs were first introduced in WWI and wide spread in WW2 so I'd argue they are not a new concept... so if they (the IG) are structured around those tactics they certainly would have it, look up the BAR and the Madsen Machine Gun, both introduced in WWI the BAR being introduced later in the war. I get in the fluff and the IG is expendable and that's cool and all but even then realistically they would have a SAW in their ranks. The IGs idea of sacrificing bodies is fun for fluff but they will eventually run out of said bodies and lose the war. I like to think they care about mission accomplishment and victory above all else, this may mean taking very heavy losses sometimes, but remember they have to kill the bad guys effectively too. Tactics will be used... other then let's drown them in bodies. Cadians and equivalents will out maneuver their enemies to gain an advantage. And most important part... GW doesn't grasp military knowledge very well, they make stuff up all the time.

 Keep wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I suppose the plasma gun could sort of fulfil that role (can anyone remember if the stats for plasma guns in 1st edition had Following Fire?).

Plasmaguns fire slowly and have little ammo capacity (10 shots)

Plasma guns used to have a sustained fire dice and be bad at penetrating armour.

Well maybe they don't because lasguns function like an LMG when needed?
Lasguns have powerpack capacities of somewhere between 40 and 100 shots, and can be recharged. So they would have the capacity for that, they certainly have a full auto mode and every shot is a tracer afterall.

I didn't think that every lasgun could have a high enough fire rate to be a mini-SAW on its own...

Anyway... there's something that's been bothering me.

The Lasgun... it's a game and a lot of time the game trumps reality I get it. But REALISTICALLY....

What would the Lasgun fire?

Laser wouldn't be effective in every type of weather or environment. Sandstorms, fog, or rain would make it ineffective. And invading a sand world would be a nightmare for the guard and they would be ineffective.

Maybe a very low powered plasma type gun. If that's the case, would a battery be able enough to fuel the weapon? Isn't plasma heated metal, if so this would make resupply a pain when in the fluff the Lasgun logically is a miracle of war. Because you wouldn't be able to recharge the weapon batteries.

Someone mentioned like a mini lightning type gun, which would be able to use a battery pack but the fluff says it can shoot in space (a vacuum)... I was under the impression lightning doesn't work in vacuums... but my science is a little rusty.

Is there some other type of material it would fire realistically?

As someone who plays around with 18650s for fun, and vapes.
Yeah, you can get some quite explosive effects with batteries.
They can knock planes out of the sky, given the right focus they can burn through things instantly or eventually. If you have enough they can power a car

Wouldn't the multilas be an example of a light or medium machine gun? I know that infantry squads can't carry them (which is silly) but they can be found on a bunch of different guard vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lasguns could work like the blasters from Star Wars; firing supper heated gas. I know that this would essentially make them weak plasma guns, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with that

KayTwo wrote:
Wouldn't the multilas be an example of a light or medium machine gun? I know that infantry squads can't carry them (which is silly) but they can be found on a bunch of different guard vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lasguns could work like the blasters from Star Wars; firing supper heated gas. I know that this would essentially make them weak plasma guns, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with that

Because such weapons would be closer to Pulse Rifles than Lasguns, as Pulse is a form of plasma, whereas Lasweapons are straight up lasers, and unfortunately its part of sci-fi that just has to be hand-waived, because any sci-fi form needs handwaivium to work. For example, superheroes like Spiderman or Captain America need handwavium as to their strength, The Flash has much handwavium, Superman is entirely handwavium. Same as stuff like Star Trek, Star Wars, 40K, Terminator, and basically any science fiction media needs suspension of disbelief or a little tweaking of the facts to work.

My handwavium for Lasweapons is simply that it burns so hot it incinerates tiny particles of dust or whatever in its path, and evaporates moisture particles, so it doesn't need to worry about them as much. Obviously, a great ash cloud would be a problem but a bit of rain isn't an issue.

I didn't think that environmental effects were really a big deal for the lasgun, as anything too thick too shoot through is too thick to see through.
Although that means you still can't try to suppress through smoke and things.

I heard somewhere it suggested that lasguns first first a lower power shot, to burn a clear path to what you're aiming at, and then the high powered shot immediately afterwards to deliver the blow.
The whole two-shot process taking less time than a bullet travelling down the barrel.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I didn't think that environmental effects were really a big deal for the lasgun, as anything too thick too shoot through is too thick to see through.
Although that means you still can't try to suppress through smoke and things.

I heard somewhere it suggested that lasguns first first a lower power shot, to burn a clear path to what you're aiming at, and then the high powered shot immediately afterwards to deliver the blow.
The whole two-shot process taking less time than a bullet travelling down the barrel.

Ok, I could somewhat believe that working. Rain, no problem as someone else said the water would evaporate around the laser or whatnot, but what about ash or sand? They would certainly have to fight in those conditions. Seeing as how orks are a common enemy who use ballistic weapons wouldn't have a problem shooting. The argument of hey close combat... they would get destroyed so... would a hot enough laser punch through ash and similar environments?

Ash and Sand is definitely going to limit the lasers effectiveness. but no more than solid projectile weapons would also be limited. If you could see your target, both the laser and the bullet are going to get through with lethal force.

Ash and sand are also going to play havoc with a mechanical firearm, while a lasgun has no moving parts. So its going to be less problematic in that respect. Static charge might cause issues with the electronics of course.

Well a single lasgun is probably not equivalent to a single SAW. But it's possible that the greater firepower of a lasgun-equipped squad makes up for that difference.
And the extra logistics of issuing a SAW wouldn't be worth the effort. Instead the squads are accompanied by other special weapons fulfilling a more specialised role, such as flamers, grenade launchers or melta guns.
We can see that elite forces, such as the Tempestus do wield a SAW like weapon, perhaps because the increase in logistics required is worth the bump in power.

They seem to draw the power from the same cells as standard hotshots.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They seem to draw the power from the same cells as standard hotshots.

Hotshot weapons use backpack ammo supplies, because a standard issue lasgun sized powerpack can only hold a single hotshot shot.

I know, and its the same backpack wether you use a hotshot lasgun or not.

And some stormtrooper models don't have backpack, but powerpacks, somehow I doubt these packs only fire one shot. Furthermore, FFG RPG's had hotshot lasguns that had normal powerpacks, but all weapons could be hooked up to the larger backpacks. They also had Hotshot packs that could fit standard lasguns and gave extra damage and AP (but not as much as a normal hotshot lasgun)

 Bobthehero wrote:
I know, and its the same backpack wether you use a hotshot lasgun or not.

And some stormtrooper models don't have backpack, but powerpacks, somehow I doubt these packs only fire one shot. Furthermore, FFG RPG's had hotshot lasguns that had normal powerpacks, but all weapons could be hooked up to the larger backpacks. They also had Hotshot packs that could fit standard lasguns and gave extra damage and AP (but not as much as a normal hotshot lasgun)

Maybe you misunderstood me.
The standard size power pack that fits in a regular lasgun will only hold 1 hotshot shot. I presume these are modified packs to dump all their charge in a single shot as opposed to pacing it out.
Because one shot is really sucky, hotshot lasguns are almost always fed from a backpack mounted powersupply. I imagine a hotshot lasgun to be essentially a lasgun modified in whatever way to handle the constant added stress of firing hotshots.
If you wanted a regular lasgun with lots of shots you could also use that off of a backpack supply of some kind.
In the RPGs the lasgun with hotshot laspack tends to hit harder than the regular hotshot lasgun, so perhaps you could get a few shots out of a hotshot lasgun with a power pack rather than just the one.
I imagine other guns (assuming' because models' isn't a viable argument) need backpack power supplies because they themselves run off of a power supply as well. Or those guns don't have a power supply persay, but something like a plasma gun has a gas supply from the backpack, or a melta gun has a 'melta' supply or whatever they actually fire.

Meltaguns are actually a fascinating problem; what the hell are they?

A maser is insufficient, plus they clearly consume physical ammunition. The original description indicated that they generated subatomic reactions, which translates to "meson gun" IMHO, but that's also what conversion beamers do.
So I conclude that the meltagun is a sort of fusion induction gun; it fires a stream of charged particles which stick to the target, then "ignites" them into fusion withe a specially tuned energy beam that the melta-gas is designed to be hyper-reactive to. Like a reverse plasma gun.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Meltaguns are actually a fascinating problem; what the hell are they?

A maser is insufficient, plus they clearly consume physical ammunition. The original description indicated that they generated subatomic reactions, which translates to "meson gun" IMHO, but that's also what conversion beamers do.
So I conclude that the meltagun is a sort of fusion induction gun; it fires a stream of charged particles which stick to the target, then "ignites" them into fusion withe a specially tuned energy beam that the melta-gas is designed to be hyper-reactive to. Like a reverse plasma gun.

That kinda works.
But we know they also have a focusing nozzle, capable of creating a whole in a bulkhead sufficient for an astartes to fit through. (Seen in Fear To Tread).

Maybe they are almost exactly like a plasma gun, but whereas the plasma gun projects the stabilising field in parallel ahead of itself, the meltagun instead focuses this field on a very narrow point ahead of itself. This would explain the higher strength, shorter range, and melta effect as any target beyond the maximum focal point for the plasma it would start to dissipate. So if we assume a melta gun could focus precisely up to 6'' away, it begins to disperse beyond that to the point of ineffectiveness at 12''.

The term "Flashlight" really doesn't do this weapon justice, the accuracy of a las-bolt, combined with the practically non-existent recoil are great starting points for this gun. Then factor in the rechargeable ammo packs, and furthermore the fact that it can insta-boil the blood in a targets limbs, causing said limb to explode, instantly puts the lasgun's capabilities ahead of any standard-issue military firearm available around in our world.

Yes unsurprisingly it may start to falter individually against more resilient enemies like chaos Space Marines, but that's not the fault of the weapon, it's more that so many beings in the 40k universe are just that ridiculously Over-powered that you need to upgrade to grenade launchers or plasma guns to match them on an individual level, but that's when mass volley firing comes into the equation. When there are thousands of lasguns firing from a well disciplined line of troops, even the big bad guys in power armour are going to get disintegrated.

That being said however, when you're up against Gaunts or Orc boyz (who are far more common) though it's perfectly adequate, especially considering many lasguns are capable of full-auto fire. Although given the technological state of the Imperium it's a dead-end design, the fact that it is still reliably adequate after 10,000 years plus of service is a testament to its enduring design.

I wouldn't rely on the RPGs damage system too much. Plasma guns for example are weaker than multilasers whereas on TT and in the fluff they are portrayed as significantly more potent. Plus plasma both overheats and can only fire every other round. Point is, damage values in particular are wonky for at least some of the RPGs.