In fact, everyone subscribed to Palladium's updates or, in fact, to the Kickstarter updates, was informed of RPG Tactics shipping.
In a way. I received the mail with the KS update because I have KS configured that way, but I have yet to receive a mail from PB regarding the shipping, at all.
I think we're muddying what is considered 'shipping notification' here.
They said back in, what, early September that they were starting shipping!
And then over the weeks that followed, we ascertained that they had only shipped out core boxes and some small packs, like "a box of Destroids only" or "a sheet of decals".
Then in early October they said "okay now shipping is beginning in earnest!"
And said they were aiming to have a good thousand Battle Cry boxes out in the next week.
But due to containers being held up for weeks, they omitted/neglected to mention (possibly because they didn't think it relevant at the time) that once those boxes went out, they were going to have to sit on their thumbs until another container arrived.
And so we've been advised recently of the big 2 weeks of shipping at the end of October and early November.
So I think a little skepticism about them and anything shipping related is kind of reasonable. This isn't "omg rawr Palladium bad!", but "... historically these guys have overstated their case pretty much every time, so until personal notifications go out, it remains to be seen".
Even the current 2 week shippingpocalypse is predicated on containers 3, 4 and possibly 5 (or more?) arriving in a timely fashion. Which... has not happened yet (in that C1 and C2 hit delays of one sort or another, as have 3 and 4, so further delays would be the standard at this point).
Long story short; PB has 'informed people that shipping was beginning', but that statement had, like, a half dozen asterisks and caveats attached to it.
Forar wrote: Am I mistaken, or didn't you give the demo a whirl back at Gencon?
If so, it'll be interesting to hear your thoughts comparing the two experiences. How it seems to have evolved (any rules changes in the demo material to full release), and how the 'full rules' hold up under use.
My minis experience is just Malifaux, but across a massive breadth of video and board game experiences, I'm interested in how the mechanics interact, especially the asymmetrical options, such as the faction abilities, viability of character choices, etc.
Nah, I wasn't at Gencon. Hmm... Manchu went but I don't think he did the demo, just looked at all the minis and stuff.
We'll just be playing the first few intro scenarios in the book to come to grips with the rules in practice (I've read the rulebook now a few times and am fairly comfortable with the rules - they're quite simple, actually, and look to be kind of fun. However, that may not pan out in reality)
I'll take some pics, too. Been building some microscale terrain recently. Lots of micro buildings from Gamecraft, a ton of trees, and got lots of little cars and stuff from various online vendors.
I can't keep commenting here because container 3 arrived this morning and we're trying to get a ton of packages sent out today, so I'll just say this. Wave Two was all "sculpted" long ago. Now the engineers are taking those 3D sculpts and translating them into the format they need to tool the molds. They've been working on that for quite a while, and much of it is done for Wave 2, but we're still making last minute fixes on some, more significant adjustments to others. The engineering renders are what I was referring to in a recent update.
And yes, if we hadn't split into two waves, we'd all still be waiting to get anything manufactured. There was really no choice but to split them up. The two waves haven't complicated shipping at all. Mostly it's just been waiting to get more product that has slowed us down."
I can't keep commenting here because container 3 arrived this morning and we're trying to get a ton of packages sent out today, so I'll just say this. Wave Two was all "sculpted" long ago. Now the engineers are taking those 3D sculpts and translating them into the format they need to tool the molds. They've been working on that for quite a while, and much of it is done for Wave 2, but we're still making last minute fixes on some, more significant adjustments to others. The engineering renders are what I was referring to in a recent update.
And yes, if we hadn't split into two waves, we'd all still be waiting to get anything manufactured. There was really no choice but to split them up. The two waves haven't complicated shipping at all. Mostly it's just been waiting to get more product that has slowed us down."
Container 3 arrived, that's good.
But on the other, again I'll reiterate, no pics, never happened. PB have been incredibly vague and insinuated much further progress than had been made, in the past, using terminology that makes it look like they're right on top of things. We've seen several pre-production prototypes for Wave 2 (Glaug Eldare, FPA), and a few more in the potentially lesser "physical concept" stage (Gnerl, Monster). If they want people to stop jumping to conclusions (like the mentioned "engineering renders" thing), they need to be a hell of a lot clearer about what's been done, and an explanation of what's left on each to go, until test sprues are ready to be made.
Because I remember reading people quoting Ninja John saying X, Y, and Z of Wave 2 were "done", or "finished". Until test sprues have been approved and mass production can begin, no, IMO, it's not done/finished.
@Richard, like others have said, it was faster to have them ship them as assembly was completed. Otherwise, they'd all be shipping now, after some had been sitting in their warehouse for the last two months (and if the ship went down, they'd all be lost). We made over 17,000 copies of the main box game in the first printing, and even though the facility where all printing and final assembly are done is a large, multi-building campus (I visited it while I was in China and saw several other products also being made there, including Zombicide), that's still a big job. There are a ton of components in that box, and most of them are manufactured at other facilities and delivered by truck, some of them in batches as they're completed. And since the main box is so huge, only a few thousand of them fit in a 40 foot freight container even if it's full of just those boxes, which the first few weren't. Container was a mix of main boxes and 4 of the 6 Wave One expansions, plus all the miscellaneous stuff. Containers #2-4 were a mixture of main boxes, Battle Cry extras, Spartans in #2, and Valkyries split between #2 & #3. #5 and up are all main boxes, except for a few hundred Battle Cry extras in one of them.
@Wayne, With #5, we'll definitely have enough to finish domestic, but I think we'll need some from #6 to finish international. I don't recall the total number of main boxes going out, but I don't think #5 will quite get us there, though it will give us a good start on them.
#6 & 7 are on the same ship, which should hit LA this Sunday or Monday. If they're delayed like 4 & 5 have been, then it'll be another week before they're put on a train, then ~10 days to our door.
Meaning there may be backers they can't ship to until mid November or later. Not the end of the world, but not surprising either.
Forar wrote: #6 & 7 are on the same ship, which should hit LA this Sunday or Monday. If they're delayed like 4 & 5 have been, then it'll be another week before they're put on a train, then ~10 days to our door.
I'm interested in what happened to 4 and 5. Container 1 was Custom-cized, Container 2 was indirectly held up due to the port fire (the port delay caused a rush on road transport, and PB's container wasn't prioritized), and Container 3 got Custom-cized as well. So far, five pitches, batting .000. Murphy/Karma really didn't like the GenCon idea.
And I have realised that due to me 'cherry-picking' what I wanted as a modeller, not a gamer, and comparing that to the list of what is in wave 1 or wave 2, I was previously incorrect in saying I had nothing in wave 1.
Yup, my UEDF decals are a Wave 1 item. I forsee the following.
When PB get arround to international orders, they will send me my decals. Which I will have nothing to put them on for quite some time - increasing the chance that they will be damaged/lost/cannibalised for other projects before I get anything else and increasing their shipping costs.
The sensible thing to do, and one which I have zero problems with, is to not send me anything, and keep those decals unfullfilled until they send me my wave 2 stuff.
How many of you think this will actually happen? Will PB find a couple of spare brain-cells to rub together, save themselves the hassle and cost of sending just a decal sheet to an international backer, or should I expect an envelope from them sometime before Christmas? What sort of shipping notice should I expect if they do ship?
As no-one seems to have confirmation of where EU orders are actually going to be shipped from, I will be well miffed if the decals come from the USA, and the entire value of my pledge is given on the declaration form! I could end up paying £28 duty plus an additional £8 delivery on a $5 item! (OK, that's worse case scenario here, but........)
Conrad Turner wrote: As no-one seems to have confirmation of where EU orders are actually going to be shipped from, I will be well miffed if the decals come from the USA, and the entire value of my pledge is given on the declaration form! I could end up paying £28 duty plus an additional £8 delivery on a $5 item! (OK, that's worse case scenario here, but........)
Well... actual worst-case scenario would be you having to pay that twice: once for the decals, and once again when they send you Wave 2
Conrad Turner wrote: As no-one seems to have confirmation of where EU orders are actually going to be shipped from, I will be well miffed if the decals come from the USA, and the entire value of my pledge is given on the declaration form! I could end up paying £28 duty plus an additional £8 delivery on a $5 item! (OK, that's worse case scenario here, but........)
Well... actual worst-case scenario would be you having to pay that twice: once for the decals, and once again when they send you Wave 2
But I was only talking about my wave 1 delivery - the decals. Paying about 10X the item's worth in charges really would hurt when I'm already considering that I'll get hit for about the same amount on my wave 2. At least my wave 2 is around $135, so it won't sting quite as much as I'll get a lot more for that charge. IF it all goes wrong, I could get charged $58 for a $5 decal sheet!
Conrad Turner wrote: But I was only talking about my wave 1 delivery - the decals. Paying about 10X the item's worth in charges really would hurt when I'm already considering that I'll get hit for about the same amount on my wave 2. At least my wave 2 is around $135, so it won't sting quite as much as I'll get a lot more for that charge. IF it all goes wrong, I could get charged $58 for a $5 decal sheet!
Still, who'd want to live in "Rip-off Britain"?
Do you have the option of declining? Cause if so, that might be the best option. Cause your Wave 2 stuff will be sent from internal EU, assuming they ever get around to telling EU-ians how they're doing that (I hope they HAVE a plan, and I hope it's better than the ones the Cylons had). And just get someone to pick it up retail, and mail it to you in a letter.
I know if the Harvey Law had of been implemented (dropping tax free imports from $1000AU exc/shipping to $20AU inc/shipping), or the AU dollar dropped like a stone ($1AU < $0.80US), I was going to reject my pledges. No way I was gonna pay 20% (potentially twice) for something I no longer wanted anyway. Thankfully, that's not a problem for me, and I get to just look on, and watch the show as a bystander.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'm interested in what happened to 4 and 5. Container 1 was Custom-cized, Container 2 was indirectly held up due to the port fire (the port delay caused a rush on road transport, and PB's container wasn't prioritized), and Container 3 got Custom-cized as well. So far, five pitches, batting .000. Murphy/Karma really didn't like the GenCon idea.
Hrm. Perhaps Wayne at PB made a mistake?
1 and 2 got held up by Customs, 3 got delayed waiting on a chassis (and took like an extra 2 weeks to get off the ship or something?), and 4 is on a train but was flagged for more Customs checking once it arrived at its destination.
5 has arrived at the port, and 6 & 7 are at sea on the same ship.
I don't think we've heard anything about 5 being held up.
But at this point, it wouldn't surprise me if it had. Kinda par for the course.
Conrad Turner wrote: Will PB find a couple of spare brain-cells to rub together, save themselves the hassle and cost of sending just a decal sheet to an international backer
One of my duties is writing comprehensive front-end shipping software for the last 7 years. Even I haven't come up with an algorithm to "rub some brain cells together" and attempt to _guess_ what one of 5000 plus customers wants to have done to their order _without the customer having contacted first_.
Probably best to send them a message and let them know you don't care to have the sheet alone. There's still time, given that international shipping isn't even close to starting, far as we know.
But yes, given that a US backer just received a decal sheet, unless you tell them not to they probably will send it.
Hey, guys. Looks like the Kickstarter site is about to go down for maintenance, so this will be really quick.
Container #3 came in yesterday, and we've shipped about 400 packages since. Close to 300 expected to go out tomorrow, and hoping to pack another 1,000 over this weekend to go out on Monday. We're almost done with the plain domestic Battle Cry packages, by far the largest single group. Larger packages and other combinations coming in the next few days.
Container #4 is in Chicago, and should arrive in Detroit this weekend. Then, it's up to Customs how soon we get it, but hopefully end of next week.
Container #5 is still being delayed, and was bumped from its train that was supposed to leave Tuesday. Hopefully it will get on a train leaving in the next couple days, in which case we'll probably get it first week of November.
Containers #6 and #7 hit LA early next week.
Container #8 is at sea, and #9 is at the port in China, sailing Monday.
Have a good weekend, everyone. TONS of packages will be arriving on doorsteps next week.
Swabby wrote: How many containers are there? I swear the number keeps going up
Initial quotes were for backer rewards. Apparently part of container 6 is needed for that. Remaining containers (and perhaps parts of some of the earlier ones*) are for retail/webstore sales.
* Admittedly speculation, based on the Container 1 shennanigans. There was a lot of leftover from C1. Depending on how much control of adjustment they have with shipping, it's possible that before C6 arrives, there'll be significantly more boxed sets than there are awaiting BC expansions. Note, there's really nothing wrong with this (other than the implication that "a few hundred" at GenCon might have intended to be 800-900). Just mentioned so people don't automatically assume backer fulfillment is significantly more than retail allotment.
Forar wrote: Probably best to send them a message and let them know you don't care to have the sheet alone. There's still time, given that international shipping isn't even close to starting, far as we know.
But yes, given that a US backer just received a decal sheet, unless you tell them not to they probably will send it.
Had sent them a message. not such a DB about it that I'd expect them to read my mind (Or this thread) and know what I was thinking without me telling them explicitly, but without the option to call them on a phone or call round in person, I don't know if I'll ever get a reply , but have sent them the message that I'm willing to leave my W1 delivery of decals until they have W2 available to deliver.
So either I'll get them soon anyway, or W2 turns up without them. 50/50 on that I guess.
Its an actual aircraft in the Robotech Universe for those who do not know
So I have a partial city built 2 by 2 so fr and expanding that (working on a monorail system)
A government buildings section, working on a power plant building for it
A armored barracks armory for a Battalion of tanks and assorted vehicles
Working on a actual Mecha base with repair bays, towers, hangars, revetments and all that jazz
Line of Bunkers
"From NMI
""We're not going by backer numbers. We're going by for lack of a better phrase what was ordered. we have, have completed all the pure battle cry / no add on only orders today. Next will be possibly show down or something similar. I will try and give it more accurate update later on this evening.""
""I don't want to say anything specific regarding showdown out any shipping proce/timetables. I can safely say that showdown's "should" be going out soon.""
Here we go again. Okay. When Wayne prints out packing slips for shipping, he sorts the outstanding fulfillment orders into groups based on what they ordered. First contact, Battlecry, Battlecry + decals, Battlecry+ other stuff. Within those sorted groups, the fulfillment orders in those groups are naturally sorted by backer #, but because of the criteria decided upon for sorting, trying to gauge by backer number is impossible. Yes, Backer number X will be boxed and shipped before Backer # X+1 in the same group, but because the distribution of those groups is random based upon what the backers selected for their pledge rewards. It has the appearance of randomness.
So, basically what NMI said is only partially true.
Backer 5 might get their stuff after backer 10, but before backer 1 if #1 has some weird stuff added on.
Also, they claimed to have been shipping out 1,000 boxes with Container #2.
They said they sent out ~700 boxes last week, and were planning to send another ~1,000 this weekend (apparently they have 800 boxed up to go, according to Wayne, with more to pack up.
That's ~2,500 boxes. There are only 3,000 backers (minus international contributors, people who didn't pay and those that upgraded to Showdown+, plus however many upgraded to BC post campaign, and anyone they let in 'after the fact', which they advertised being an option and some have commented on.
That doesn't seem to add up. Apparently they hope to start hitting Showdowns on Tuesday? How do we have 2,500+ boxes out of 3,000 being US backers? I mean, I find it hard to believe that international backers are that heavily represented in higher tiers, or somehow this campaign is 75%+ US (half, sure. Two thirds? Maybe. Three quarters or more? Starting to see less likely).
It's possible that that's how it is, or I'm missing a variable, but Occam's Razor is telling me that maybe some of those numbers have been, ahhh, generously rounded.
Edit: more news "from the front".
And yes, I was back this weekend. All weekend. Other than taking some time off to move, I intend to be there until the task is done. (Barring my work obligations) As something for the international backers, there was practical discussion on the best methods of packaging the international orders with the boxes that were ordered (A comment that the fufillment house for EU orders stated that all shipments should be packed as small as possible to conserve space and keep down cost.) Because of the geometry of the components (Particularly those who ordered battlefoam bags) and the varieties of box ordered, some custom cutting work will have to be done for some EU orders and the strategy for that was discussed today and a few minutes were taken experimenting with different layouts to get the most effective use of space with the least amount of manual steps needed to save time and prevent possible worker injury while trimming boxes.
Manchu I am beginning to suspect you are a bit impartial here.
NMI has been a complete ass in every other forum we have had interactions with him. Dakka has always been brutally honest about such things and has been a hotbed of critisism of personalities from other companies (matt ward for example)
It might be time to just post in here as a gamer and get another mod to moderate, you seem to be taking a pretty hard slant in the one place that we can vent without having a fanboy influence.
I think it is time for some clarity on this "venting" issue.
Dakka Dakka is an independent forum. There is no moderation policy whatsoever concerning protecting any company. I cannot tell you how often I hear that Dakka Dakka stamps out criticism of GW. But I can tell you it is about the same amount as I hear that Dakka Dakka stamps out support of GW. The truth is we do neither -- not with regard to GW or any other company, including Palladium and Ninja Division.
Members are 100% free to criticize any product or company on Dakka Dakka. Members are also 100% free to argue against such criticisms. The resulting dialog, however, is not a carve out regarding the same rules that apply to posting generally. And Rule Number One is Be Polite. It should be absolutely clear that personal attacks are not polite, whether or not the target is a member here. There is no "venting" exception to our forum rules. As is the case on any other issue, members who cannot follow the rules will not be allowed to post.
While I think it shows poor taste and bad judgment to bring drama from another forum or website here to Dakka Dakka, doing so is not necessarily against our rules as long as the conversation remains polite and does not entail personal attacks. Just to be completely clear -- making personal attacks on NMI or any other PB or Ninja Division employee is not acceptable here. This is the second warning I have had to post on this matter in this thread. It will also be the last.
If anyone has any questions about the rules, please PM me or start a thread in the Nuts & Bolts sub-forum. This thread will not become a referendum on forum rules and posts to that effect will be deleted.
As to the question of me being impartial -- I am not impartial at all. I think PB has done an overall terrible job communicating to us backers, regardless of the recent improvements. I also think the product they have delivered so far is of good quality. That applies to both miniatures and rules. I have started to assemble my Zents and I have started to use them playing RRT. IMO the minis are good and the rules make for a smooth, fun game.
Impartiality toward this product or the companies involved in making it is in no way a requirement for me or anyone else to moderate this thread. Let me say, I think that is one of the absolute lowest and slimiest kinds of argument leveled against moderators. Personally attacking a moderator from another site, insulting his intelligence and calling him a complete ass, is obviously unacceptable behavior and there is no excuse for it. Attacking me is probably the worst excuse someone could try to make for it, although "but it's true" is a close second.
I have found it to be very much worth the wait so far. That said, I'm sure I will be pining away for Wave 2 (power armor FTW) once I get well and truly tired of having my regults blown away.
As for the factions, I like both equally I guess. I am not looking forward to assembling Valks, however, as they seem way too fiddly. I bet they will paint up very nicely, however.
I don't mind fiddly minis, it's alright if they take a little longer to assemble. I just can't wait to remake the Strike Witches JFW's in veritech form lol
If I end up enlisting I don't know when I'll get to enjoy it all T.T
The fiddly bits do tend to annoy me. I already accidentally snapped the minuscule nose antenna, or whatever it was, that was supposed to go on my glaug.
"From NMI
""We're not going by backer numbers. We're going by for lack of a better phrase what was ordered. we have, have completed all the pure battle cry / no add on only orders today. Next will be possibly show down or something similar. I will try and give it more accurate update later on this evening.""
""I don't want to say anything specific regarding showdown out any shipping proce/timetables. I can safely say that showdown's "should" be going out soon.""
LOLWUT?! So why don't the 2 people I know with "pure battle cry" pledges have shipping notices? BS..
"From NMI
""We're not going by backer numbers. We're going by for lack of a better phrase what was ordered. we have, have completed all the pure battle cry / no add on only orders today. Next will be possibly show down or something similar. I will try and give it more accurate update later on this evening.""
""I don't want to say anything specific regarding showdown out any shipping proce/timetables. I can safely say that showdown's "should" be going out soon.""
LOLWUT?! So why don't the 2 people I know with "pure battle cry" pledges have shipping notices? BS..
Because they are shipping out without sending notices?
This should help clarify what NMI posted from another backer who volunteered this weekend.
""Here we go again. Okay. When Wayne prints out packing slips for shipping, he sorts the outstanding fulfillment orders into groups based on what they ordered. First contact, Battlecry, Battlecry + decals, Battlecry+ other stuff. Within those sorted groups, the fulfillment orders in those groups are naturally sorted by backer #, but because of the criteria decided upon for sorting, trying to gauge by backer number is impossible. Yes, Backer number X will be boxed and shipped before Backer # X+1 in the same group, but because the distribution of those groups is random based upon what the backers selected for their pledge rewards. It has the appearance of randomness.""
Automatically Appended Next Post: On Wayne's twitter account he mentions SD pledges might start shipping out on Tuesday.
Forar wrote: US > Order Size/Complexity (essentially Smallest to Largest) > Backer Number
I think that explains why I got my Battlecry so quickly but still not among the very first. I'm in the US, got Battlecry with no add ons, and my backer number was 323 (backer kit number being 2212).
Forar wrote: US > Order Size/Complexity (essentially Smallest to Largest) > Backer Number
I think that explains why I got my Battlecry so quickly but still not among the very first. I'm in the US, got Battlecry with no add ons, and my backer number was 323 (backer kit number being 2212).
Righto, I got a Battlecry with only Wave 2 add-ons, so effectively just a Battlecry, and my backer number was 26 or whatever.
No Middle Initial. At least that's what the US military uses it for. A relative of mine served in the Navy and didn't have a middle initial so he got the NMI designation because with typical .mil bureaucratic efficiency if you don't have a single initial for your middle name they give you three.
I also snapped the barrel on one of my Glaug chin autocannons. The only part yet to be badly molded in my opinion. I'm replacing them with round headed sewing pins cut short. In my first 2 games so far I've found the Regaults very powerful if kept close and supporting each other. So far its been Zents 2, Valks 0. I'm liking it!
Looks like SD's will begin shipping tomorrow. Here's Kevin's latest rant.
1000 RRT packages shipped today! October 27, 2014
Approximately 1,000 packages of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, give or take a couple dozen, shipped today, Monday, October 27, 2014. We lost count after 900 and something. We worked all weekend and Monday on processing Kickstarter rewards for backers. With the help of a half dozen volunteers (Thank you -- NMI/Jeff, Chris, Nathan, Chris, Dave, Mark) and the ENTIRE Palladium staff, we managed to hit our goal of shipping out approximately 1,000 packages of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ on Monday. So a lot of gamers will be getting packages this week. Enjoy.
Now we move on to shipping Showdowns to backers in the USA. Overseas and Canadian backers will be shipped after we get the (comparatively easy) domestic packages sent on their way.
It has also been nice meeting the many backers who are coming by the office to "pick up" their rewards. In fact, the trick with them is to not spend too much time chatting when we all need to be shipping. Some of these folks have been very fun to talk too.
More updates, Murmurs and Posts to follow.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Publisher, Writer and a very tired Game Designer
Rifts®, The Rifter®, RECON®, Splicers®, Palladium Books®, The Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game®, Phase World®, Nightbane®, Megaverse®, The Mechanoids®, The Mechanoid Invasion®, Coalition Wars® and After the Bomb® are Registered Trademarks of Palladium Books Inc. RPG Tactics™, Beyond the Supernatural, Chaos Earth, Coalition States, Dead Reign, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, Minion War, Mysteries of Magic, SAMAS, Thundercloud Galaxy, Three Galaxies, Vampire Kingdoms, and other published book titles, names, slogans and likenesses are trademarks of Palladium Books Inc., and Kevin Siembieda.
Robotech® and Robotech® The Shadow Chronicles® are Registered Trademarks of Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
Cypher-xv wrote: Looks like SD's will begin shipping tomorrow. Here's Kevin's latest rant.
Im no fanboi but I wouldnt really call that a rant. It is informative and shows a sense of urgency that the P staff and helpers have been applying to ship those orders.
I would expect a similar email from any of the KS I have backed.
Joyboozer wrote: Is "I'm no fanboy" your catch phrase? You've used it in both posts I've read.
Sure?
I just did a search through my posts and from what i can see I have only used the phrase that once. Happy to be proven wrong though if you an find it
I used the term as there has been much consternation in this thread over haters and fanbois and the way people perceive the actions of P, Personally I see the KS as a shamozzle but I still like to try and be balanced when commenting on P press releases/action and I believed that the persons perception of the recent release seemed to be coming from the 'hater' camp. I used the term 'fanboi' to helpfully denote that I am not an instant lover of everything P do or say so that my positive comment on their recent press released can be seen as a genuine comment rather than an instant love/hate reaction
God you're right, it's some other dude, sorry, getting old!
To be honest I'm just happy Kevin's comments weren't about how none of the volunteers could get any work done because the product was too awesome to behold and left them drooling morons!
I still love Robotech, and still look forward to getting and playing this game, but I don't think I'll ever be able to stop making fun of Palladium or take them seriously. But I can separate the two.
C'mon Palladium, I've created a gaming room, received a table from Secret Weapon, terrain from Mantic, just send me the bloody game you boobs!
Cypher-xv wrote: Looks like SD's will begin shipping tomorrow. Here's Kevin's latest rant.
1000 RRT packages shipped today! October 27, 2014
Approximately 1,000 packages of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, give or take a couple dozen, shipped today, Monday, October 27, 2014. We lost count after 900 and something.
Specifically they lost count at 980 boxes of the roughly 1000...strange things seem to happen around that number for some reason.
Joking aside, I actually like the pictures I'm seeing. I wouldn't call them the greatest models ever and/or PB putting GW on notice, but adjusting for the nonsense that goes on with 3 groups working over the designs they turned out okay. Just a shame the Marauder is out of scale, but that's not a realistic complaint.
Man the biggest problem I have here is having to buy his and her armies for every game we get into. I feel for you guys that have to hide your plasticrack addiction.
Now to figure out how to get it past Mrs. Kyoto...
Maybe inside a diaper box.
Tell her you're finally ready for that threesome with the UPS guy she's been going on about all year, then heft the package suggestively past her. Play your cards right, and this could cover a few Kickstarters.
Now to figure out how to get it past Mrs. Kyoto...
"I cant believe I forgot about this game, I bought it just before we met and you changed my life so much I totally forgot about it and left it a Johhno's place.........until now"
Now to figure out how to get it past Mrs. Kyoto...
Maybe inside a diaper box.
Tell her you're finally ready for that threesome with the UPS guy she's been going on about all year, then heft the package suggestively past her. Play your cards right, and this could cover a few Kickstarters.
'Hefting the package' may quickly prove prophetic...and psyche bruising.
Told wife about this in the beginning.
She did not check the credit card bill then.
When she sees the huge box of plasti-crack she may freak out a bit.
BUT she will not find the charge for it..
Will I survive? Will she find the charge?
Stay tuned...
Talizvar wrote: Told wife about this in the beginning.
She did not check the credit card bill then.
When she sees the huge box of plasti-crack she may freak out a bit.
BUT she will not find the charge for it..
Will I survive? Will she find the charge?
Stay tuned...
Got my box yesterday and had a chance to go through it today. I have to say I'm quite happy. The quality of the components seems very nice. Haven't had a chance to more than glance at the rulebook, but it doesn't give me the urge to open a vein. I've been let down by enough kickstarters in the last couple years to be pleasantky surprised when one far exceeds my (albeit low) expectations.
True, the models could have been simpler and less fiddly, but I'll take fiddly hard plastic over un-assembled restic. Some careful packing and I was able to get the contents including the KS wave 1 all into the main box. Some better assembly instructions would have been nice, but I'll survive.
With my current painting timetable, probably won't get to this until the new year. Need to psych myself up and finish painting Deadzone Wave 2 first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spoke too soon about not wanting to open a vein from the rulebook. Force cards. Seriously, whose idea was making this the only way to build. Novel idea...How about assigning points to individual elements and then presenting recommended forces, y'know, like pretty much every other game.
Swabby wrote: The force cards, and more importantly the lack of them really irks me. That info should have been included in the rulebook.
As is if you lose a card you are boned.
Or just download replacements, they are working on permission for that or you can use mine until then. It's not like X-wing has them in the rulebook either. I don't think warmachine does.
Mike1975 wrote: Or just download replacements, they are working on permission for that or you can use mine until then. It's not like X-wing has them in the rulebook either. I don't think warmachine does.
X Wing has multiple online list builders and images of the official cards are all over the place.
Ditto Warmachine.
And yes, the fact that there's no central place to look up points and rules for both of these systems is bad. The internet is making up for that downside.
The fact that others do a bad thing doesn't mean it's okay to do a bad thing.
And to be honest, your cards just look bad IMO. I get that you're offering a free service and that's great - but I'd rather not be "forced" to use yours.
Saying "just download replacements" isn't valid because they don't exist (yet).
Meh, nevermind. I'll be labeled a hater and ignored anyway.
Mike unless you have access to rules we do not have access to we cannot be sure that your cards have the final rules reflected on them. Point costs could have changed for units and upgrades and we would have no idea without the official cards.
Triple9 wrote: Got my box yesterday and had a chance to go through it today. I have to say I'm quite happy. The quality of the components seems very nice. Haven't had a chance to more than glance at the rulebook, but it doesn't give me the urge to open a vein. I've been let down by enough kickstarters in the last couple years to be pleasantky surprised when one far exceeds my (albeit low) expectations.
True, the models could have been simpler and less fiddly, but I'll take fiddly hard plastic over un-assembled restic. Some careful packing and I was able to get the contents including the KS wave 1 all into the main box. Some better assembly instructions would have been nice, but I'll survive.
With my current painting timetable, probably won't get to this until the new year. Need to psych myself up and finish painting Deadzone Wave 2 first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spoke too soon about not wanting to open a vein from the rulebook. Force cards. Seriously, whose idea was making this the only way to build. Novel idea...How about assigning points to individual elements and then presenting recommended forces, y'know, like pretty much every other game.
I finally got mine as well and I'd put myself in the "satisfied" camp but the potential for more than that has long passed (along with frankly alot of the interest in actually assembling all these models beyond a token dozen or so). Some things that may have been covered:
1) They don't look as bad in person as some of the preview pics would indicate. A good example would be the "backpack" on the valkyrie. IMO it looks like utter garbage as a one piece no undercuts detail put right onto the back piece in the zoomed in preview pics. In person, it doesn't look bad. It doesn't look good mind you but it doesn't look half as bad in person at that size in your hand. I obviously haven't assembled any yet so can't comment on the mould lines at the moment.
2) The fiddly bits are REALLY fiddly and all over the place. There are so many ridiculously tiny pieces that will need clipping, trimming, gluing, and careful storage that I suspect many models with antenna and small protusions will be modelled with battle damage within a few games regardless of the care you take in using and storing them. By tiny, I mean like automatic lead pencil lead breaks off a tip when you feed too much at once through the tip tiny.
3) The production value on the book is leagues better than anything palladium has done recently or frankly ever (judging from the Robotech RPG books I got last year). It's nice to see them firmly step into the new millennium finally. I haven't taken the cards out of the packs/shrinkwrap yet so can't comment on them.
4) I've only got a blitzkrieg pledge and there are alot of minis. This isn't obviously a shock but it is jarring to see that many sprues for the first time. They're about average quality for modern plastic kits so you definitely get a good deal from a strictly consumer POV for the money spent on base pledges in this KS (depending on how much value you put on frustration during the intervening year's worth of delays, obfuscation, lies, and attempted backtracking of course). That amount of minis though is a bit daunting when you realize you have to paint and assemble them. That is obviously a 1st world minis gamer problem though.
Funny you mention battle damage Warboss. I had a glaug chin gun break on the sprue, and the one that didn't break somehow broke after I primed it even though I hadn't touched it. Needless to say It is now a battle casualty.
Swabby wrote: Mike unless you have access to rules we do not have access to we cannot be sure that your cards have the final rules reflected on them. Point costs could have changed for units and upgrades and we would have no idea without the official cards.
I have access to all of the final versions of the cards. The information is correct barring typos on my part.
Swabby wrote: Palladium gave you the final version of the cards?
I know what is on them. I helped make a lot of the final corrections with the stats that they made just before going to print.
Is there any possibility whatsoever that those cards were further edited before going to a printing press?
People are going to make modeling decisions based off the values on the cards and wayne stated there had been changes from all the information we have previously seen. Are you 100% sure?
judgedoug wrote: Anyone have any recommendations for foam trays?
I am considering these two storage options:
a) very soft foam, such as KR foam. I am guessing pluck? Unless KR has Robotech trays coming out.
b) magnetizing the bases and storing the figures upright in pizza-box style storage.
Anyone have a solution they're using right now that works?
Rifle cases. Works for all my Battletech miniatures.
Plastic cheap kind.
I actually use the GW 36-hole foam trays for my Battletech mechs as they fit perfectly. Unfortunately the newer 40-hole foam trays from GW are slightly too small for Battletech mechs.
Also, Robotech mecha with their bases are on average larger than their Battletech counterparts and I'm also afraid of the cannons and such breaking from the pressures of a swing case closing on them.
So pluck foam is probably what I'll have to do... or magnetize. I'm just hoping someone with assembled Robotech figs can weight in?
Swabby wrote: Palladium gave you the final version of the cards?
I know what is on them. I helped make a lot of the final corrections with the stats that they made just before going to print.
Is there any possibility whatsoever that those cards were further edited before going to a printing press?
People are going to make modeling decisions based off the values on the cards and wayne stated there had been changes from all the information we have previously seen. Are you 100% sure?
Highly unlikely since I found more errors after they thought the cards had been completely vetted. As far as I know my 2 cents were the last input before printing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, what kind of modeling decisions would change? I'm not following your thinking. If the stats have even one number off by one or the cost off by 5 points would that change anything?
Mike1975 wrote: Besides, what kind of modeling decisions would change? I'm not following your thinking. If the stats have even one number off by one or the cost off by 5 points would that change anything?
A list that a person wants to use right away goes from (say) 180 points to 185 points.
"But its only 5 points!" Who cares? The purpose of a points limit is that it's a limit.
Mike1975 wrote: Besides, what kind of modeling decisions would change? I'm not following your thinking. If the stats have even one number off by one or the cost off by 5 points would that change anything?
A list that a person wants to use right away goes from (say) 180 points to 185 points.
"But its only 5 points!" Who cares? The purpose of a points limit is that it's a limit.
True but that has nothing to how you would model any individual figure. So the question remains.
You've got four different types of battle pods with different things stuck on them. How much modeling difference is there supposed to be between the Veritechs?
"If I put this upgrade on that model, I go over the points I agreed to use." or "I can't use these models in that combination in the points we agreed to use" or "I built my battle pods in the wrong assortment." That's what difference it makes to any individual model.
Swabby wrote: If you model your armies to have the equipment they actually have it means all the difference.
Ok, I can see that. Most people I know do not go to that detail since if you put medium missiles on a VT and then want to use Heavy Missiles we just state what has what for clarity. To some this can be a big deal. I usually don't play with those types of people thank goodness. Stats and points are good like I said, barring any typos on my part. Feel free to ask if you use them and have any questions.
WYSIWYG isn't something detestible or anything. If anything it should be admired when a player goes to those lengths in detailing their army.
It is at the very least a courtesy to your opponent, as they don't even have to ask you what equipment your units have if they can just see it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either way I would be careful when claiming that your rules are legitimately official when we do not know for sure what was actually (or is going to be printed).
Swabby wrote: WYSIWYG isn't something detestible or anything. If anything it should be admired when a player goes to those lengths in detailing their army.
It is at the very least a courtesy to your opponent, as they don't even have to ask you what equipment your units have if they can just see it.
It's a courtesy with people who can and plan on buying enough to make very specific army. At least this is not 40k where army lists can change yearly. Modeling specific to what the unit has is not always possible with casual gamers but more of a concern with more die hard players. I do not see it as something to be admired unless it is when the same requirements are not pushed onto others, which is typically the case. I have seen that scenario way too often.
In some games it is a requirement for many formats.
A well built, well painted army that is equipped to fit its rules is something to be admired. I swear sometimes I think some of you guys are in a totally different hobby.
No, many of us play with more casual gamers who are more interested in having fun instead of people who consider themselves Die Hards.
Miniatures gaming has and always will have a few factions, the die hards that want specific armies made to reflect the actual units in toto, who are typically very concerned with the rules and are often very competitive. They also are typically but not always very strict on painted minis and # colors and more.
Then you have more casual gamers that are not as strict but who love to play and that is their primary consideration when buying in to a game. A game with them may often have a 180 point game per side where one player asks if they mind if he ups it to 185 and the other may agree and change something on their own forces instead of focusing in on 180 points.
Then you have the players that play rarely, love the game, and are in many ways the opposite of the die hards. They want to play because they like the universe and story. These are the first and foremost to be pushed away by some, but not all, of those in the Die Hard category. The ones that adamantly push the rare player to conform to their view of what a "real" player is.
Those are what I've seen as the 3 primary groups. There are shades and variations of each.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a note, typically each group typically cannot understand how the others can enjoy the game in the way they play. The Rare and Die Hards are the most opposed and seem to conflict the most.
Swabby wrote: Mike, that is the most ill informed, stereotyping load of BS I have seen posted in this entire 244 page thread.
I dunno - remember that we have the PB updates in the thread as well. :-)
WYSIWYG is extremely important to everyone - or should be. It eliminates the chances of "accidental" cheating ("Oh, I though he had heavy missiles because that's what the mini has...") and is polite to your opponent ("What is that veritech again?")
Why limit to missiles? Why can't I just say "Oh, these two VFs are Supers but these other two that look exactly the same are normals." And have it be okay?
Nothing to do with "die hard" vs casual - it's simply polite.
These aren't mutually exclusive classes. But rather, 'stats' of how much something is important to you.
Stat1: 'Fluff Importance', ranging from 'none, it's an abstraction' to 'I must make sure every one of my guys is WSIWYG and has a name, backstory, follows 'historical' organization, etc.
Stat2: 'Modeling Importnace', ranging from 'I play with barely assembled models on bases and tokens, to 'Everything painted OK' to 'Everything as best painted as I can and modelled with conversions'
Stat3: 'Rules Importance', ranging from 'I dont understand or care I want to throw dice' to 'I want to play a well balanced game where the rules are clear and fair, while also having factional and gameplay diversity'.
---
There's people that fall in different places on the Rules, Fluff and Modeling stat-curve. But you can have a casual player who has beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models, as well as a highly analytical competitive tourney player who loves trying to get the most out of beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models.
Swabby wrote: WYSIWYG isn't something detestible or anything. If anything it should be admired when a player goes to those lengths in detailing their army.
It is at the very least a courtesy to your opponent, as they don't even have to ask you what equipment your units have if they can just see it.
+1
Nothing is as frustrating as asking "which medium missile models are heavy missiles again?" or "which models with flamers are actually plasma guns?" or "Is the baked bin can a landraider or a prdedator, I keep getting it mixed up with the pumpkin" or "oh crap I thought that was the one with the XXXXX, if i had known that i would have shot him instead"
WYSIWYG is a rule designed to enhance the enjoyment of games by removing complication.
Can you proxy models with friends to test them out before buying them? Sure, I do it myself.
Run proxy models game after game because you dont feel like changing them or run proxy models in a pickup game against a person you have never met before? Pretty poor form.
First, I'm not a hardcore WYSIWYG guy myself, but look at the forum we're on. It should be no surprise that such a thing is going to come up and range from a non-issue to flat out expected. The game and official tournament system may not require perfect modeling accuracy, but one shouldn't gak on people who are so inclined, as long as they're not being disrespectful to others about their inclinations.
I mean, I'm not going to magnetize itty bitty little missiles or VT heads, but the Spartan arms and Artillery Pods? Yeah, I'll probably do those, assuming my meager modeling skills can keep up.
Secondly; anyone who supports this game should be nothing but respectful of (at least personally aimed) WYSIWYG inclinations.
Why? Because those are people who will potentially spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra over the years to have those perfect combinations, as well as the time and effort that can go into magnetizing and otherwise modding figures to be as accurate as they can.
And finally, I find it somewhat funny that the game isn't WYSIWYG in terms of mech gear, and yet a figure crouching or jumping IS a huge game mechanics deal, in terms of LOS to and from the figure.
The rules don't force anyone to go full out with perfect option representation, but let's keep in mind the audience and PB's business model. "Ohh, I should buy 3 more VT squads to model them with different missiles" is the kind of thing people weep tears of joy to hear (minor hyperbole present), as long as that person doesn't turn around and try to give me gak because I took "gravity bombs" on a figure that isn't, in fact, modelled with "gravity bombs".
These aren't mutually exclusive classes. But rather, 'stats' of how much something is important to you.
Stat1: 'Fluff Importance', ranging from 'none, it's an abstraction' to 'I must make sure every one of my guys is WSIWYG and has a name, backstory, follows 'historical' organization, etc.
Stat2: 'Modeling Importnace', ranging from 'I play with barely assembled models on bases and tokens, to 'Everything painted OK' to 'Everything as best painted as I can and modelled with conversions'
Stat3: 'Rules Importance', ranging from 'I dont understand or care I want to throw dice' to 'I want to play a well balanced game where the rules are clear and fair, while also having factional and gameplay diversity'.
---
There's people that fall in different places on the Rules, Fluff and Modeling stat-curve. But you can have a casual player who has beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models, as well as a highly analytical competitive tourney player who loves trying to get the most out of beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models.
I can agree with this. But people who have a high importance of #2 and look down on ALL others are a detriment to the game. I can see how people here won't see it but I do, have, and likely always will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: First, I'm not a hardcore WYSIWYG guy myself, but look at the forum we're on. It should be no surprise that such a thing is going to come up and range from a non-issue to flat out expected. The game and official tournament system may not require perfect modeling accuracy, but one shouldn't gak on people who are so inclined, as long as they're not being disrespectful to others about their inclinations.
I mean, I'm not going to magnetize itty bitty little missiles or VT heads, but the Spartan arms and Artillery Pods? Yeah, I'll probably do those, assuming my meager modeling skills can keep up.
Secondly; anyone who supports this game should be nothing but respectful of (at least personally aimed) WYSIWYG inclinations.
Why? Because those are people who will potentially spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra over the years to have those perfect combinations, as well as the time and effort that can go into magnetizing and otherwise modding figures to be as accurate as they can.
And finally, I find it somewhat funny that the game isn't WYSIWYG in terms of mech gear, and yet a figure crouching or jumping IS a huge game mechanics deal, in terms of LOS to and from the figure.
The rules don't force anyone to go full out with perfect option representation, but let's keep in mind the audience and PB's business model. "Ohh, I should buy 3 more VT squads to model them with different missiles" is the kind of thing people weep tears of joy to hear (minor hyperbole present), as long as that person doesn't turn around and try to give me gak because I took "gravity bombs" on a figure that isn't, in fact, modelled with "gravity bombs".
Agreed, people who hold WYSIWYG in utmost importance, more often then not, look down on all who do not hold the same standards, and in the end push potential players away. That's life, that fact, that's real. Note: I said more often then not, so there are exceptions. People with the same attitude as some here are more detrimental to the game than poor minis or anything else in the world.
Swabby wrote: Mike, that is the most ill informed, stereotyping load of BS I have seen posted in this entire 244 page thread.
Considering this is a PB thread and considering their fans, I'd say get used to it
Considering the source....I don't need to know more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If someone has 2 squadrons of VF's and they modes are built with Medium Range Missiles and the player wants to use them as Long Range Missiles and the other player refuses, that is what kills gaming for casual players. I'm not saying use a Spartan as a Defender but if you have a Spartan and want to use it with a GU-11 then you should not have to use magnets and all to make figures reconfigurable in 10 ways or be forced to buy another mini for every option available. That's stupid.
Sining wrote: Which is what most people are doing for WH40k anyway. I guess you're calling them stupid
Guess so, if they insist of WYSIWYG all the time...I know a lot of 40k players, very few insist on WYSIWYG except when they go play tournaments. So maybe I just know a good group of people.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also someone doing something stupid and being stupid are not the same thing. Don't twist reality here.
I got a big box from Palladium Books yesterday. To say I was surprised was an understatement. I haven't opened it yet- been too busy, and probably will be through next week. Maybe I'll do an unboxing video? It'll be my first time doing such a thing, but eh, why not?
Are you kidding me? Dude, you just stereotyped in the worst way the entire miniature wargaming community into 3 totally flawed groups. It isn't an assumption. People strive to make their minis match whatever they are trying to look like. It doesn't matter what game it is, it is a massive part of the hobby to attempt to simulate a big ole war on a tiny little scale. A large part of the object of even doing this is to make it look like the thing you are trying to pretend is playing out in front of you in tinyland. This is fact from historicals all the way up to the fanboi driven tentacle bento.
Swabby wrote: [quote=Mike1975 521733 7320090 8a4f83402035ee093153a105e3a4f992.png
That assumption is where you are wrong..
Are you kidding me? Dude, you just stereotyped in the worst way the entire miniature wargaming community into 3 totally flawed groups. It isn't an assumption. People strive to make their minis match whatever they are trying to look like. It doesn't matter what game it is, it is a massive part of the hobby to attempt to simulate a big ole war on a tiny little scale. A large part of the object of even doing this is to make it look like the thing you are trying to pretend is playing out in front of you in tinyland. This is fact from historicals all the way up to the fanboi driven tentacle bento.
Which is all fine and dandy BUT if you refuse to let a person play with his extra VF-1A being used as a VF-1S just because you want WYSIWYG and he does not have a VF-1S then YOU are in the wrong. Plain and simple. I've not said that trying is bad, I'm saying that if you refuse to play with others because they have different standards and/or smaller pocketbooks, you are in fact pushing people away from playing or limiting them, not matter what your intentions. If I have a space marine and he does not have a combat knife on the mini because I lost one, it fell off, whatever, is is unreasonable to allow me to play with him as if he did have the knife? Would if be fair to a player with less funds for you to tell him to go buy another marine, assemble him, paint him and then come back. Please.... you are off base here. You can tell him ok and ask him to see what he can do for next time but refusing to play or let him play because of something like that is stupid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is why younger players are more challenged to jump into the miniatures market because of experienced players who act in this manner.
Obviously you have never played anyone who has brought a soda can drop pod army that drops a legion of grey minis from an entirely different game on the table.
There are limits man. It happens.
And quite honestly, people are challenged getting into this hobby for a myriad of reasons, but the one you are mentioning is not one of them in my experience, at all.
These aren't mutually exclusive classes. But rather, 'stats' of how much something is important to you.
Stat1: 'Fluff Importance', ranging from 'none, it's an abstraction' to 'I must make sure every one of my guys is WSIWYG and has a name, backstory, follows 'historical' organization, etc.
Stat2: 'Modeling Importnace', ranging from 'I play with barely assembled models on bases and tokens, to 'Everything painted OK' to 'Everything as best painted as I can and modelled with conversions'
Stat3: 'Rules Importance', ranging from 'I dont understand or care I want to throw dice' to 'I want to play a well balanced game where the rules are clear and fair, while also having factional and gameplay diversity'.
---
There's people that fall in different places on the Rules, Fluff and Modeling stat-curve. But you can have a casual player who has beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models, as well as a highly analytical competitive tourney player who loves trying to get the most out of beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models.
I can agree with this. But people who have a high importance of #2 and look down on ALL others are a detriment to the game. I can see how people here won't see it but I do, have, and likely always will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: First, I'm not a hardcore WYSIWYG guy myself, but look at the forum we're on. It should be no surprise that such a thing is going to come up and range from a non-issue to flat out expected. The game and official tournament system may not require perfect modeling accuracy, but one shouldn't gak on people who are so inclined, as long as they're not being disrespectful to others about their inclinations.
I mean, I'm not going to magnetize itty bitty little missiles or VT heads, but the Spartan arms and Artillery Pods? Yeah, I'll probably do those, assuming my meager modeling skills can keep up.
Secondly; anyone who supports this game should be nothing but respectful of (at least personally aimed) WYSIWYG inclinations.
Why? Because those are people who will potentially spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra over the years to have those perfect combinations, as well as the time and effort that can go into magnetizing and otherwise modding figures to be as accurate as they can.
And finally, I find it somewhat funny that the game isn't WYSIWYG in terms of mech gear, and yet a figure crouching or jumping IS a huge game mechanics deal, in terms of LOS to and from the figure.
The rules don't force anyone to go full out with perfect option representation, but let's keep in mind the audience and PB's business model. "Ohh, I should buy 3 more VT squads to model them with different missiles" is the kind of thing people weep tears of joy to hear (minor hyperbole present), as long as that person doesn't turn around and try to give me gak because I took "gravity bombs" on a figure that isn't, in fact, modelled with "gravity bombs".
Agreed, people who hold WYSIWYG in utmost importance, more often then not, look down on all who do not hold the same standards, and in the end push potential players away. That's life, that fact, that's real. Note: I said more often then not, so there are exceptions. People with the same attitude as some here are more detrimental to the game than poor minis or anything else in the world.
I'm still amazed that you can hand wave away WYSIWYG. It's not a hardcore or elitist thing at all - it's simply polite.
And no - it's not the utmost importance, but you asked the question and now you're rejecting the answer for some reason.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im still waiting for any indication at all that my pledge is being shipped to me :(
What did you order?
If it was a Battle Cry, it should be in the mail. Check your spam filter and whatnot.
Showdown? Just started shipping. Maybe this week or next? Depends on whether or not they get another container, if what they've told us is true and their/my math holds up.
Mike1975 wrote: No, many of us play with more casual gamers who are more interested in having fun instead of people who consider themselves Die Hards.
Miniatures gaming has and always will have a few factions, the die hards that want specific armies made to reflect the actual units in toto, who are typically very concerned with the rules and are often very competitive. They also are typically but not always very strict on painted minis and # colors and more.
Then you have more casual gamers that are not as strict but who love to play and that is their primary consideration when buying in to a game. A game with them may often have a 180 point game per side where one player asks if they mind if he ups it to 185 and the other may agree and change something on their own forces instead of focusing in on 180 points.
Then you have the players that play rarely, love the game, and are in many ways the opposite of the die hards. They want to play because they like the universe and story. These are the first and foremost to be pushed away by some, but not all, of those in the Die Hard category. The ones that adamantly push the rare player to conform to their view of what a "real" player is.
Those are what I've seen as the 3 primary groups. There are shades and variations of each.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a note, typically each group typically cannot understand how the others can enjoy the game in the way they play. The Rare and Die Hards are the most opposed and seem to conflict the most.
Swabby wrote: Mike, that is the most ill informed, stereotyping load of BS I have seen posted in this entire 244 page thread.
Really Swabby? really?
Because, I totally agree with Mike...
I've been playing games since 1984, and miniatures games since 1990. In all that time, the die hard competitive players have ALWAYS been the minority... The Die Hard competitives are the one group that makes this hobby unfun for me, and I must say that this has become more and more a problem in the last 14 years.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, I do WYSIWYG. Or I magnetize.
And why? Because my OCD wont let me do otherwise...
I'm saying that if you refuse to play with others because they have different standards and/or smaller pocketbooks, you are in fact pushing people away from playing or limiting them, not matter what your intentions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is why younger players are more challenged to jump into the miniatures market because of experienced players who act in this manner.
So Mike, you admit to pushing young/poor players out of the hobby because you enforce your version of WYSIWYG.
These aren't mutually exclusive classes. But rather, 'stats' of how much something is important to you.
Stat1: 'Fluff Importance', ranging from 'none, it's an abstraction' to 'I must make sure every one of my guys is WSIWYG and has a name, backstory, follows 'historical' organization, etc.
Stat2: 'Modeling Importnace', ranging from 'I play with barely assembled models on bases and tokens, to 'Everything painted OK' to 'Everything as best painted as I can and modelled with conversions'
Stat3: 'Rules Importance', ranging from 'I dont understand or care I want to throw dice' to 'I want to play a well balanced game where the rules are clear and fair, while also having factional and gameplay diversity'.
---
There's people that fall in different places on the Rules, Fluff and Modeling stat-curve. But you can have a casual player who has beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models, as well as a highly analytical competitive tourney player who loves trying to get the most out of beautifully painted, 'historically' accurate models.
I can agree with this. But people who have a high importance of #2 and look down on ALL others are a detriment to the game. I can see how people here won't see it but I do, have, and likely always will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: First, I'm not a hardcore WYSIWYG guy myself, but look at the forum we're on. It should be no surprise that such a thing is going to come up and range from a non-issue to flat out expected. The game and official tournament system may not require perfect modeling accuracy, but one shouldn't gak on people who are so inclined, as long as they're not being disrespectful to others about their inclinations.
I mean, I'm not going to magnetize itty bitty little missiles or VT heads, but the Spartan arms and Artillery Pods? Yeah, I'll probably do those, assuming my meager modeling skills can keep up.
Secondly; anyone who supports this game should be nothing but respectful of (at least personally aimed) WYSIWYG inclinations.
Why? Because those are people who will potentially spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra over the years to have those perfect combinations, as well as the time and effort that can go into magnetizing and otherwise modding figures to be as accurate as they can.
And finally, I find it somewhat funny that the game isn't WYSIWYG in terms of mech gear, and yet a figure crouching or jumping IS a huge game mechanics deal, in terms of LOS to and from the figure.
The rules don't force anyone to go full out with perfect option representation, but let's keep in mind the audience and PB's business model. "Ohh, I should buy 3 more VT squads to model them with different missiles" is the kind of thing people weep tears of joy to hear (minor hyperbole present), as long as that person doesn't turn around and try to give me gak because I took "gravity bombs" on a figure that isn't, in fact, modelled with "gravity bombs".
Agreed, people who hold WYSIWYG in utmost importance, more often then not, look down on all who do not hold the same standards, and in the end push potential players away. That's life, that fact, that's real. Note: I said more often then not, so there are exceptions. People with the same attitude as some here are more detrimental to the game than poor minis or anything else in the world.
I'm still amazed that you can hand wave away WYSIWYG. It's not a hardcore or elitist thing at all - it's simply polite.
And no - it's not the utmost importance, but you asked the question and now you're rejecting the answer for some reason.
I'm not rejecting the answer in any way. The idea of WYSIWYG as an absolute must for all players and all circumstances hurts the hobby...fact
Obviously you have never played anyone who has brought a soda can drop pod army that drops a legion of grey minis from an entirely different game on the table.
There are limits man. It happens.
And quite honestly, people are challenged getting into this hobby for a myriad of reasons, but the one you are mentioning is not one of them in my experience, at all.
That's an extreme example that I never mentioned or said I condoned and is facetiously written.
Mike1975 wrote: I'm not rejecting the answer in any way. The idea of WYSIWYG as an absolute must for all players and all circumstances hurts the hobby...fact
It's not fact. At all.
It's extremely important in other games - and there are some historical games where the difference between a Sherman M4A3 and a Sherman M4A3E2 is important enough for different rules, and WYSIWYG gets enforced there.
It's not about competitiveness. It's not about eliteness.
It's about politeness and decreasing confusion.
That's an extreme example that I never mentioned or said I condoned and is facetiously written.
You said "I'm not saying use a Spartan as a Defender."
So you agree that WYSIWYG is a good thing, you just disagree on where the line is drawn. I see the difference between heavy and medium missiles to be as important as the difference between a Spartan and a Defender.
I've been playing games since 1984, and miniatures games since 1990. In all that time, the die hard competitive players have ALWAYS been the minority... The Die Hard competitives are the one group that makes this hobby unfun for me, and I must say that this has become more and more a problem in the last 14 years.
Yes, really. Because it's possible to be part of more than one of those groups. I'm a competitive player, but I don't care about paint jobs. I buy games because I love to play them. In many games, I don't really care if one person goes over the limit - I'll rarely even change my list (unless it's egregious) - I just want to play.
I still play 40k not because the game is enjoyable, but because the people are enjoyable. I like the universe and the story.
And note that WYSIWYG helps players in all three of Mike's groups.
And yes, I do WYSIWYG. Or I magnetize.
And why? Because my OCD wont let me do otherwise...
Because your OCD understands that a difference in the rules means that there should be a difference on the model. Mike disagrees.
Swabby wrote: Mike I think you are missing some really big points here.
WYSIWYG is not some elitist thing. It is a huge part of the hobby.
^^^ This does not exactly Jive with this
Swabby wrote: I never said you said it. I said it was obvious that you have never experienced it.
And I never said that it was an absolute must. I said wysiwyg is something to be admired in a well put together army. You refuted that.
So who exactly is putting words in who's mouth?
Either way your unofficial cards should be advertised as such. You consistantly misrepresent them.
My statement has been simple and remains so, if you refuse to play with newer gamers because they do not have their entire army as WYSIWYG, then you are not doing the hobby any favors, quite the contrary. And I am not the only one to experience it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are limits that common sense must be applied to. When gamers refuse to play with others because a mini shows Long-Range missiles but will be played with Medium-Range missiles......that is wrong. Most players are not going to buy 20 Veritechs and paint them the same to have every option available for someone's OCD to be satisfied.
Using completely different figures may also be allowable IF the other player agrees and for consistency. If someone is a new player and has only the main box and wants to use an Armored Squadron of 4 Tomahawks. I would let him. Of course I'm used to Battletech and the literally hundreds of different units and variants.
Mike the only person talking about refusing to play with anyone is you man!
My whole point in even asking about the card rules is that if you are wrong and Palladium did change the point values someone trying to field a WYSIWYG army could end up mismodeling based off the information you are stating is correct.
Your personal opinion of WYSIWYG in the hobby couldn't matter less to me. Your advertising your cards without declaring them unofficial rules does however.
Swabby wrote: Mike the only person talking about refusing to play with anyone is you man!
My whole point in even asking about the card rules is that if you are wrong and Palladium did change the point values someone trying to field a WYSIWYG army could end up mismodeling based off the information you are stating is correct.
Your personal opinion of WYSIWYG in the hobby couldn't matter less to me. Your advertising your cards without declaring them unofficial rules does however.
Out of the all the people that have seen and said something about this download, you seem to be the one confused on this point. Made by someone = not-official. If I made any stat sheets for any game and used my own pics and graphics they would not be considered official. Sorry if I think it pointless to state the obvious.
Swabby wrote: The force cards, and more importantly the lack of them really irks me. That info should have been included in the rulebook.
As is if you lose a card you are boned.
Or just download replacements, they are working on permission for that or you can use mine until then. It's not like X-wing has them in the rulebook either. I don't think warmachine does.
Swabby wrote: Mike the only person talking about refusing to play with anyone is you man!
My whole point in even asking about the card rules is that if you are wrong and Palladium did change the point values someone trying to field a WYSIWYG army could end up mismodeling based off the information you are stating is correct.
Your personal opinion of WYSIWYG in the hobby couldn't matter less to me. Your advertising your cards without declaring them unofficial rules does however.
Out of the all the people that have seen and said something about this download, you seem to be the one confused on this point. Made by someone = not-official. If I made any stat sheets for any game and used my own pics and graphics they would not be considered official. Sorry if I think it pointless to state the obvious.
He's really not the only one. When you provided the link, I assumed it was PB's efforts, until I recognized them as yours.
Mike1975 wrote: My statement has been simple and remains so, if you refuse to play with newer gamers because they do not have their entire army as WYSIWYG, then you are not doing the hobby any favors, quite the contrary. And I am not the only one to experience it.
Please tell me one time I said I'd refuse to play with someone who wasn't WYSIWYG. I insist on doing it myself, but even you said that some level of WYSIWYG is appropriate.
There are limits that common sense must be applied to. When gamers refuse to play with others because a mini shows Long-Range missiles but will be played with Medium-Range missiles......that is wrong. Most players are not going to buy 20 Veritechs and paint them the same to have every option available for someone's OCD to be satisfied.
Using completely different figures may also be allowable IF the other player agrees and for consistency. If someone is a new player and has only the main box and wants to use an Armored Squadron of 4 Tomahawks. I would let him. Of course I'm used to Battletech and the literally hundreds of different units and variants.
I played WYSIWYG in Battletech as well - even customized a few minis so I could field the variants (The Catapult with PPCs for example). I don't see your point in bringing that up.
You're, again, going off of your perceptions about what's bad and assuming that's what we're saying. We're not. WYSIWYG isn't some evil to be derided at all costs - even you said it's appropriate to a point. You just disagree on where that point is.
If the game has been on store shelves for 6 months and this "new player" has been playing the entire time... and hasn't yet bought the 4 Tomahawks, instead continuing to use, say, Zentradi Pods as proxies... would you continue to play him? What would you do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: The file name said "official" last time I saw it, despite containing non-official rules in it.
Though admittedly I haven't gone looking for the most recent edition.
Still says "UEDF Official Squadron Cards" and "Zen Official Squadron Cards".
So yes Mike - despite your objections you are labeling them as official. Perhaps you can understand the confusion, then, when you say "Well of course they aren't."
Swabby wrote: Mike the only person talking about refusing to play with anyone is you man!
My whole point in even asking about the card rules is that if you are wrong and Palladium did change the point values someone trying to field a WYSIWYG army could end up mismodeling based off the information you are stating is correct.
Your personal opinion of WYSIWYG in the hobby couldn't matter less to me. Your advertising your cards without declaring them unofficial rules does however.
It's easier to charge windmills than address the actual issue being presented. Besides, didn't we go over all this 6 months ago when someone (can't remember if it was mike or eric smith) decreed that if you prefer painted figs than you're an elitist pig? I think the same exaggerations were made there as well with people who simply paint their own figs and prefer to play against painted ones being demonized by largely imaginary extensions of their views. I have no idea where this warped view of preferring to play the game AS INTENDED AND SHOWN BY THE COMPANY IN THEIR OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS, RULES, AND PROMOTIONAL MATERIALS is somehow a bad thing. It should be admired that someone is willing to set themselves to a higher standard instead of a lower one. This is a visual hobby for most gamers and attractive and appropriate visuals contribute to the experience for many (but not all). If you don't want to model your minis correctly, that's fine. Just be CLEAR AND CONSISTENT with your opponent. Don't pull the ol' this valkyrie with SRMs is really bombs but that one is really SRMs... if you figures are incorrectly modelled for the rules, be consistent and have all of them the same thing as a courtesy to your opponent.
Mike1975 wrote: My statement has been simple and remains so, if you refuse to play with newer gamers because they do not have their entire army as WYSIWYG, then you are not doing the hobby any favors, quite the contrary. And I am not the only one to experience it.
Please tell me one time I said I'd refuse to play with someone who wasn't WYSIWYG. I insist on doing it myself, but even you said that some level of WYSIWYG is appropriate.
There are limits that common sense must be applied to. When gamers refuse to play with others because a mini shows Long-Range missiles but will be played with Medium-Range missiles......that is wrong. Most players are not going to buy 20 Veritechs and paint them the same to have every option available for someone's OCD to be satisfied.
Using completely different figures may also be allowable IF the other player agrees and for consistency. If someone is a new player and has only the main box and wants to use an Armored Squadron of 4 Tomahawks. I would let him. Of course I'm used to Battletech and the literally hundreds of different units and variants.
I played WYSIWYG in Battletech as well - even customized a few minis so I could field the variants (The Catapult with PPCs for example). I don't see your point in bringing that up.
You're, again, going off of your perceptions about what's bad and assuming that's what we're saying. We're not. WYSIWYG isn't some evil to be derided at all costs - even you said it's appropriate to a point. You just disagree on where that point is.
If the game has been on store shelves for 6 months and this "new player" has been playing the entire time... and hasn't yet bought the 4 Tomahawks, instead continuing to use, say, Zentradi Pods as proxies... would you continue to play him? What would you do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: The file name said "official" last time I saw it, despite containing non-official rules in it.
Though admittedly I haven't gone looking for the most recent edition.
Still says "UEDF Official Squadron Cards" and "Zen Official Squadron Cards".
So yes Mike - despite your objections you are labeling them as official. Perhaps you can understand the confusion, then, when you say "Well of course they aren't."
Again, It depends, if the kid is obviously some poor teenager, I might accept it, if he was a grown adult and just cheap, then no. Again, common sense needs to be used, you cannot force WYSIWYG as an absolute for all cases. I did state that using it as an absolute is where die hards push players away. Many people do not bend in any way on this.
As an aside if it helps I can rename the download, the reason they are named that way is that I have others that have additional notation on them that I will be using for testing for future generations. The main concept is a unit size. That way a kick from a Veritech does not do the same as a Kick from a cyclone or an Alpha that are much smaller. I've always opposed the present HTH rules as they exist because when we get into the other generations some things will have to be changed and I'd rather have PB use the rules as they will be after all the other generations come out instead of having to errata the crap out of everything.
Mike1975 wrote: Again, It depends, if the kid is obviously some poor teenager, I might accept it, if he was a grown adult and just cheap, then no. Again, common sense needs to be used, you cannot force WYSIWYG as an absolute for all cases.
No one has said that it should be forced. All we've said is that it's not a bad thing, and that it's polite to your opponent to be WYSIWYG. You, on the other hand, have decried anyone who cares about WYSIWYG to be die hards and bad for the game. Reading and understanding what's actually said is good before flying off the handle.
As an aside if it helps I can rename the download, the reason they are named that way is that I have others that have additional notation on them that I will be using for testing for future generations. The main concept is a unit size. That way a kick from a Veritech does not do the same as a Kick from a cyclone or an Alpha that are much smaller. I've always opposed the present HTH rules as they exist because when we get into the other generations some things will have to be changed and I'd rather have PB use the rules as they will be after all the other generations come out instead of having to errata the crap out of everything.
Well, if you're going to say things like "Out of the all the people that have seen and said something about this download, you seem to be the one confused on this point. Made by someone = not-official. If I made any stat sheets for any game and used my own pics and graphics they would not be considered official. Sorry if I think it pointless to state the obvious." and then you name the files "Official" you do understand why there's confusion, right? If it's not official but you call it official, and you've had insight to the literal exact rules/cards before they were printed what are we supposed to think?
It's good to respect that younger people might have limited finances, and yet somehow ignoring that with massive unemployment and financial issues, there are millions (tens of millions?) of "grown adults" that might have limited resources as well.
"But Forar, they probably shouldn't be playing a minis game." some might say.
"And who the hell are we to judge how they choose to spend a little of what disposable income they might have?" I reply.
Look, the issue here isn't "omg YES" or "omg NO", it's simply respecting that these are factors in the hobby. I have friends that played WHF and WH40K, and have tales of friends that would play purely proxy armies using, like, nuts and bolts and washers and lego men. Friends or not, even they reflect back on it and express how frustrating it could be.
So clearly SOME manner of portraying what you have on the field accurately isn't an unreasonable expectation, but here we're just splitting hairs. Is it ideal to know exactly which VT is the J or which Destroid is the Command unit? Sure! Even mixing squads of swarms of BP's might get messy, at least by my understanding of the Reinforcement mechanic.
Is it impossible to overcome? No. Obviously it will simply require asking "hey, is that the command destroid?" just to be clear, or people using magnets/markers (on the mechs or on the bases, as I'm pondering doing, as it'd be infinitely simpler).
There is room for compromise. *AS AN IDEAL*, it'd be nice if everyone had the time, skill, tools, money and other resources to have perfectly modeled and painted up figures for every possible combination of units they might take.
Conversely, those same people seem to mostly be focusing on that it *would be nice*, and that they hold themselves to a higher standard. As long as they don't try to give me gak because I have to use a token to note *this* Defender is a Command figure and that my VT's are using Long Range missiles, not the Medium Range ones as I've modeled, it shouldn't be a problem.
Trying to field an army of bases with legs is one extreme. Expecting 100% accuracy is another. I feel like you (Mike) are arguing against an extreme that isn't being presented as a requirement. I'm sure there ARE some 'elitist' types who would give me gak for those kinds of minimal shifts. Those folks can find someone else to play against.
But this HAS been known about for years now. PB are the ones that said there would be tournament support, and a competitive rules set requires accounting for such things. "Three colour minimum" and what must or needn't be modeled, and any vagueness will cause issues, either through confusion (legit misunderstanding or disagreement between reasonable folks) or "that guy". It's easy to say "oh, I play with friends, and none of them are donkey caves", but *not everyone has that benefit*.
Forar wrote: It's easy to say "oh, I play with friends, and none of them are donkey caves", but *not everyone has that benefit*.
That does of course assume that folks who choose to only play with or against painted armies are automatically donkey caves which is NOT the case. A preference involving artistic expression is NOT an indicator of the personality of the person in question no more so than someone who never paints but enjoys playing is a donkey cave. It's a preference and neither is mandatory but it is almost unbelieveable when folks decree unilaterally that something isn't a part of the hobby (like proper modelling and/or painting) despite decades of evidence to the contrary. Let's leave the name calling and labeling of fellow gamers for the KS comments.
WYSIWYG I always looked at as both a modeling challenge and a courtesy to my opponent.
I think the trick is not to place the same standards on others as you do yourself.
I played way back in the day with the cardboard "chits" for war gaming and must admit I find it hard to go back from models: things look too good now to give up.
I tend to find the WAAC players will do the bare minimum (missing arms, unprimed, printed pictures on cardstock) to the models to get the uber-build they want with the least fuss so we all have stereotypes we can think of from personal experience.
I like the X-wing method of cards to keep with your main reference material: it makes it easy to see the options for everyone and makes WYSIWYG less a priority.
The pretty official cards are important, hope they are a standard size to Fantasy Flight sleeves.
Mike: you have shown by your use of card pieces that as long as an "icon" placeholder of roughly the right size is used: all is well. I am sure your imagination fills in the rest of the details quite fine.
It is like how so many people show ways they painted the different variants of X-wing pre-painted models: sometimes you just want it to look like the source material because it is cool...
Or for pete's sake. Got shipping notice earlier in the week and it was supposed to be here today. Check tracking and it says its already been delivered. But I've been home all day and there hasn't been a single person that's come to the door. Check outside and nothing, check with neighbors and nothing, so now after all this delay bs I get to deal with UPS and filling out claim forms.
wana10 wrote: Or for pete's sake. Got shipping notice earlier in the week and it was supposed to be here today. Check tracking and it says its already been delivered. But I've been home all day and there hasn't been a single person that's come to the door. Check outside and nothing, check with neighbors and nothing, so now after all this delay bs I get to deal with UPS and filling out claim forms.
Or observing your house and stealing the shipment went according to plan?
It is becoming a desperate thing to get a hold of those minis.
Anyone else getting a shipment soon?
Would love to know where abouts... for interest of shipping speeds is all...
(In all seriousness I hope it was not left on the doorstep and scooped-up, that would suck large.)
Forar wrote: It's easy to say "oh, I play with friends, and none of them are donkey caves", but *not everyone has that benefit*.
That does of course assume that folks who choose to only play with or against painted armies are automatically donkey caves which is NOT the case. A preference involving artistic expression is NOT an indicator of the personality of the person in question no more so than someone who never paints but enjoys playing is a donkey cave. It's a preference and neither is mandatory but it is almost unbelieveable when folks decree unilaterally that something isn't a part of the hobby (like proper modelling and/or painting) despite decades of evidence to the contrary. Let's leave the name calling and labeling of fellow gamers for the KS comments.
Perhaps I was unclear, but you are arguing against a point I did not make, or at least did not intend to make.
The "donkey caves" in this case would be hypothetical people who snootily looked down their nose at less than perfectly WYSIWYG figures and that lacked 20 hours in modelling, basing and painting on every last figure. An extreme that I doubt many people actually adhere to (or anyone here). Even as someone that prefers playing against well built and painted figures, would you tell someone off or refuse to play them in a tournament just because their skill level was closer to the amateur end of the spectrum?
it was a natural rebuttal to Mike's often noted "oh, I play with friends, I don't have to worry about "that guy".
And mostly It was an exaggeration for comedic effect, not an affront to those that appreciate the time and effort some people put into their figures/armies.
Easy there, WB. You should know me better that that by now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 1,500 shipped this week
As we announced in the last Weekly Update, we worked all weekend to have 1,000 packages ready to ship on Monday. With the help of a half dozen volunteers including NMI/Jeff Ruiz, Chris King, Nathan Hanish, Christopher Ings, Dave Chapman, Mark Dudley and the ENTIRE Palladium staff, we succeeded in shipping approximately 1,000 Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Kickstarter backers on Monday. Woo hoo! Several hundred more have followed since, and something like 2,400 main games have been shipped so far. We hope you are enjoying them.
My sincere thanks to our volunteers who worked their tails off for us, and to the Palladium staff who worked another weekend without complaint. We could not have done it without you. As those working over the weekend can attest, it takes a 2-4 man team a solid 6-8 hours just to make the darn boxes to ship the product in! We had a nice, smooth assembly line going with work divided between making boxes, packing and shipping. Gotta tell ya, we were all feeling worn out by Sunday night, especially since we have all been working weekends for the last couple of months. Whew.
Shipping delays continue. I don’t know if you’ve seen them yet, but reports of long delays at the Port of Los Angeles and ports all across the US have started to hit the news media. I saw a report on Fox News this past Monday morning about cargo waiting on ships for 6-10 days. Add to that another 6-14 days to get the container placed on a truck or the rails, and then the transit time. It is maddening, and there is no end in sight. This is affecting countless companies, big and small, and likely to affect the availability of all kinds of products for the Christmas season. Arrrrgh. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ may be one of those products! We had originally wanted product to ship to distributors so RRT product could hit store shelves in November by Black Friday, but that is looking very unlikely. More likely early December. Time will tell.
*snip* Volunteers wanted the weekend of the 14th-16th
*snip* Please pick up your gak, that'd be sweet.
*snip* Pre-order stuff, it's totes sweet, and will go in the mail after the KS backer boxes.
Where are we now with Robotech® RPG Tactics™ deliveries?
Container #4 is at Customs in Detroit. They decided to examine it, so we hope to get it by the end of next week. Container #5 has been put on a train and we should get it early the following week. When we get either one, we can ship like crazy again, but especially #5.
Containers #6 and #7 have arrived at port. God only knows when they’ll be sent our way. Container #8 should hit LA next week and Container #9 should be a week behind it.
FYI: In order to speed up our shipping processes and get as many orders out as quickly as we can, we’ve mostly been shipping in groups of like combinations (one or two items, prints only, etc.), with the largest batches of identical orders first. We’re basically done shipping domestic Battle Cry and we’ve started Showdown, to be followed by Reckless and so on. We are shipping domestic/USA rewards first, because they are much faster to process (no Customs documentation to fill out for each package), and then Canada and overseas. We are hoping to have all Wave One Kickstarter rewards to have left the Palladium warehouse by the middle of November and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ products in stores around Thanksgiving in the USA and Canada, but it might be more like early December.
I am more WYSIWYG with Battletech than most, as in I must use a mech miniature that is the same chassis as what it is supposed to be, but not necessarily the same model.
I am less WYSIWYG with 40K than many, as in I am not worried about grenades, the CC weapon, and some of the smaller items that I can't hardly see on the model anyway. Not to mention the impossibility of modeling powers, abilities, and a very special version of a standard weapon. How do you model the Parasite's Kiss anyway? A splinter pistol that is "special". What about a Mastercrafted Bolter?
I paint slower than molasses in Winter locked in a stasis field. I just finished paining my Tau army, and I've had that since they actually released army boxes, and I got it 2 days before the official release of their 1st codex. Good thing most people I've played didn't care about paining.
The turn on this WYSIWYG thing has been taken waaaaay too far down the "People who look down on people who are not like them in the hobby" road, and nowhere near as far down the "Man, that army looks really good after all that work" road as it should have.
"From NMI
""We're not going by backer numbers. We're going by for lack of a better phrase what was ordered. we have, have completed all the pure battle cry / no add on only orders today. Next will be possibly show down or something similar. I will try and give it more accurate update later on this evening.""
""I don't want to say anything specific regarding showdown out any shipping proce/timetables. I can safely say that showdown's "should" be going out soon.""
LOLWUT?! So why don't the 2 people I know with "pure battle cry" pledges have shipping notices? BS..
I never got a shipping notice, my Battlecry stuff just showed up the other day, no warning.
Never got a shipping notice for my Tablescapes, either, and those showed up the week before.
First, I have long since decided that I won't even be using the Robotech stuff if I ever get it and will either sell it or junk it but I have been playing 40k and other TTWGs for many many years (21).
WYSIWYG is not a bad thing, it's something that helps speed up gameplay. There's nothing elitist or WAAC about preferring to know what it is you're looking at across the table. Frankly, Mike, what you're doing is blurring the lines here for a lot of us. I've never been a WAAC/power gamer and never been accused of such, however, I do insist on reasonable WYSIWYG, or a limited proxy of such. A power gamer/WAAC player would be more interested in running super cheese armies than WYSIWYG.
When it comes to a player running multiple squadrons of aircraft (so to speak) if they aren't all armed identically & it makes a difference to gameplay then yes, I do insist that I be able to identify which is which without having to ask.
That is by no means the same as saying "that space marine Sgt there is holding a plasma pistol & has a powerfist, I don't see a melta-bomb there, he can't use it" or "nope, there's nothing showing me that IG colonel has a refractor field, so he doesn't have one even though it's standard equipment".
Red_Starrise wrote: First, I have long since decided that I won't even be using the Robotech stuff if I ever get it and will either sell it or junk it but I have been playing 40k and other TTWGs for many many years (21).
WYSIWYG is not a bad thing, it's something that helps speed up gameplay. There's nothing elitist or WAAC about preferring to know what it is you're looking at across the table. Frankly, Mike, what you're doing is blurring the lines here for a lot of us. I've never been a WAAC/power gamer and never been accused of such, however, I do insist on reasonable WYSIWYG, or a limited proxy of such. A power gamer/WAAC player would be more interested in running super cheese armies than WYSIWYG.
When it comes to a player running multiple squadrons of aircraft (so to speak) if they aren't all armed identically & it makes a difference to gameplay then yes, I do insist that I be able to identify which is which without having to ask.
That is by no means the same as saying "that space marine Sgt there is holding a plasma pistol & has a powerfist, I don't see a melta-bomb there, he can't use it" or "nope, there's nothing showing me that IG colonel has a refractor field, so he doesn't have one even though it's standard equipment".
You guys can take it however you want, all I've said is that players that force as an absolute in order to play with them WYSIWYG are a detriment. It's nice, yes, but not always achievable. Common sense should take part when it is not. If you have 50 marines on 40 Eldar and the other player wants to round out his army with a squad of marines having a melta gun or something and he points that and whatever other discrepancies out then there should be no problem. I've never said to accept cans in their place or anything. If a player is extreme and refuses to play because every single mini is not WYSIWYG then that player needs some help. Striving for it is fine, refusing to play with others who have less is not. Both my nephews have played 40k since they were 8 and they have gone through changing codexes and stats. They are not going to tear apart their minis and redo them just because GW decided to change the stats for Necrons. They also can't afford to just shelve the other minis and replace them. So leeway is taken into account. If WYSIWYG was 100% then they would quickly loose interest and be upset at gamers, and rightly so. Again, you may not agree, but that is my point and it will not change nor has it changed. I simple said forcing WYSIWYG completely onto others can and often is detrimental to the game in the long term. Again, I've seen many younger players have to put up with BS from others because of 2-3 figures on the table. There is a big difference between forcing something on others and pushing for conformity. Some players can't see or understand and often cross that line no matter how old and experienced they are.
Mike, if I have 3 50 man blob IG squads and I tell you there are 5 plasma guns, 5 sgts and somewhere there's a commissar but you look and all you see are 51 cadian models armed with lasguns are you necessarily going to remember which ones are which? I'm not saying to be a WYSIWYG Nazi and in games like Malifaux or Infinity where there's typically a low number of models on the board it's not such a biggie. However, when there are a significant number of models out there it's just simply kind of a douche move to expect your opponent to remember which guardsmen with lasguns aren't. As I don't really HAVE the rules to R:RT I can't tell you what to expect in terms of loadout variability within squadrons. I'll say this though, if someone is running 3-4 4 ship flights of valks and they can all have different missiles & lasers then I sure do expect that my opponent either has them clearly armed with what I can see differently or has painted them accordingly somehow. I don't feel it's fair that they should have to guess which of my guardsmen aren't riflemen thus I don't feel it's fair I should have to guess which Valkyries have which missiles/lasers.
Again, though, you're taking it to the extreme here. You're still making abrasive attacks on people who insist on WYSIWYG. Keep in mind that not everyone who wants to be able to tell what their opponent is fielding at a glance is the type of person who will berate them over it. However, by that same token, not everyone who doesn't believe in WYSIWYG is honest about what is what every time either. The intent behind WYSIWYG is full transparency to both players.
I see nothing wrong with having a craft marked with say flames or something that clearly distinguishes it from the rest having drop tanks modeled for fun & you tell me that specific plane has long range missiles. Cool. I can tell that it has them because it doesn't blend into the rest of the craft. I am even ok with you saying something like "this entire squadron here has LRMs but I didn't put the missiles on because they are too fiddly". Cool. I can see that all of those craft have LRMs, no biggie.
It's when we get into things like (and again, this is but an example and may not be valid on its face because I don't have the rules for squadron composition) "this Valkyrie has medium missiles, this one has none, these two have long range missiles" and I look at them and they're all built the same and painted the same. Then I'm like... "um... k..." and there's minimal chance of me remembering which is which especially after they've moved and changed formation/transformed.
Red_Starrise wrote: Mike, if I have 3 50 man blob IG squads and I tell you there are 5 plasma guns, 5 sgts and somewhere there's a commissar but you look and all you see are 51 cadian models armed with lasguns are you necessarily going to remember which ones are which? I'm not saying to be a WYSIWYG Nazi and in games like Malifaux or Infinity where there's typically a low number of models on the board it's not such a biggie. However, when there are a significant number of models out there it's just simply kind of a douche move to expect your opponent to remember which guardsmen with lasguns aren't. As I don't really HAVE the rules to R:RT I can't tell you what to expect in terms of loadout variability within squadrons. I'll say this though, if someone is running 3-4 4 ship flights of valks and they can all have different missiles & lasers then I sure do expect that my opponent either has them clearly armed with what I can see differently or has painted them accordingly somehow. I don't feel it's fair that they should have to guess which of my guardsmen aren't riflemen thus I don't feel it's fair I should have to guess which Valkyries have which missiles/lasers.
Again, though, you're taking it to the extreme here. You're still making abrasive attacks on people who insist on WYSIWYG. Keep in mind that not everyone who wants to be able to tell what their opponent is fielding at a glance is the type of person who will berate them over it. However, by that same token, not everyone who doesn't believe in WYSIWYG is honest about what is what every time either. The intent behind WYSIWYG is full transparency to both players.
I see nothing wrong with having a craft marked with say flames or something that clearly distinguishes it from the rest having drop tanks modeled for fun & you tell me that specific plane has long range missiles. Cool. I can tell that it has them because it doesn't blend into the rest of the craft. I am even ok with you saying something like "this entire squadron here has LRMs but I didn't put the missiles on because they are too fiddly". Cool. I can see that all of those craft have LRMs, no biggie.
It's when we get into things like (and again, this is but an example and may not be valid on its face because I don't have the rules for squadron composition) "this Valkyrie has medium missiles, this one has none, these two have long range missiles" and I look at them and they're all built the same and painted the same. Then I'm like... "um... k..." and there's minimal chance of me remembering which is which especially after they've moved and changed formation/transformed.
And if you see it as an extreme, take it for what it is worth and move on. I take it from the comments that is it not as extreme as some would believe and from what I've heard from my nephews and others it is not.
As with the IG squads I'd tell the person OK, so now mark them with a sticker or something so we both remember which is which and move on. There are simple ways to keep people honest. Full disclosure when you do not have WYSIWYG and proper tracking is always a requirement. Nobody has said anything different. In your Valk example then you put a sticker or something on one wing and another on another to mark them. It's not like you are going to likely play with more than 5 squadrons in any game. Just like I don't plan on putting those silly command markers on the Command Destroids. Mine will be built normally. Maybe one or two with that thing. If I have one that is a commander I will mark the mini with a die or something to that no mistakes are made. If people will cheat with those things then it's pretty easy to erase a dot or two on a dry erasable card when your units are hit......
I got my email last Friday, got my delivery this Wednesday. Packing was decent, but not great, as they used wadded brown paper to pad between the non-boxed sprues (which were packed together in a plastic "bag"). The core game was boxed and shrink wrapped. As I have no intention of playing the game, due more to the horror of having to assemble those miniatures than anything else, I intend to keep it all wrapped. I don't know if I should sell off what I have as I do have wave 2 stuff coming, but only God knows when. So save it to sell as a bundle or take it out piece meal?
Any thoughts/suggestions? I'm watching 3 other battlecry pledges with the wave1 stuff on ebay and the current bid price is quite varied.
My buddy who also invested in this got his stuff earlier this week (never got a shipping email).
Mike1975 wrote: . Striving for it is fine, refusing to play with others who have less is not.
And no one has said that the latter is what they do. So you're tilting at windmills. Having fun with that?
Both my nephews have played 40k since they were 8 and they have gone through changing codexes and stats. They are not going to tear apart their minis and redo them just because GW decided to change the stats for Necrons.
Um. As far as I can think of, none of the Necron models changed much - they just got new ones. I mean, I could be wrong, but...
chaos0xomega wrote: Im still waiting for any indication at all that my pledge is being shipped to me :(
What did you order?
If it was a Battle Cry, it should be in the mail. Check your spam filter and whatnot.
Showdown? Just started shipping. Maybe this week or next? Depends on whether or not they get another container, if what they've told us is true and their/my math holds up.
Reckless? Probably going to be a while yet.
Whatever the double battlecry option was, I think that was Showdown?
chaos0xomega wrote: Whatever the double battlecry option was, I think that was Showdown?
Yeah, that's a showdown, which just began shipping last week, and they are out of materials (or close to it), so they're waiting on the next container to arrive. One might arrive this week, and one might arrive next week, so the next big shipping push is currently set for mid November.
Mike1975 wrote: . Striving for it is fine, refusing to play with others who have less is not.
And no one has said that the latter is what they do. So you're tilting at windmills. Having fun with that?
Both my nephews have played 40k since they were 8 and they have gone through changing codexes and stats. They are not going to tear apart their minis and redo them just because GW decided to change the stats for Necrons.
Um. As far as I can think of, none of the Necron models changed much - they just got new ones. I mean, I could be wrong, but...
Actually, for something that supposedly does not happen I find it amusing that you guys get so defensive over it. It does say something.
Moving on to Tactics now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the facebook page Peter Nolen is taking Hi-Res pics of the sprues and drawing what legs and arms go together etc. Really useful.
Actually, for something that supposedly does not happen I find it amusing that you guys get so defensive over it. It does say something.
So wait, you make massive broad brush stereotypes of the wargaming community, then accuse us of defending something that only you keep bringing up, and then you take our challenging that as some kind of sign that you are on to something?
Also not everyone here is on the facebook group, can you post the information here?
Mike1975 wrote: . Striving for it is fine, refusing to play with others who have less is not.
And no one has said that the latter is what they do. So you're tilting at windmills. Having fun with that?
Both my nephews have played 40k since they were 8 and they have gone through changing codexes and stats. They are not going to tear apart their minis and redo them just because GW decided to change the stats for Necrons.
Um. As far as I can think of, none of the Necron models changed much - they just got new ones. I mean, I could be wrong, but...
Actually, for something that supposedly does not happen I find it amusing that you guys get so defensive over it. It does say something.
It says that you keep making baseless claims and playing the martyr when you're called out on it, or that everyone else *must* be wrong...
Actually, for something that supposedly does not happen I find it amusing that you guys get so defensive over it. It does say something.
So wait, you make massive broad brush stereotypes of the wargaming community, then accuse us of defending something that only you keep bringing up, and then you take our challenging that as some kind of sign that you are on to something?
Also not everyone here is on the facebook group, can you post the information here?
I was never broad brush, I was very specific that people who push WYSIWYG onto others and refuse to play otherwise are a detriment, I was also told that that is a rare occaision. If it is indeed rare then there would be no reason to take offense.
Mike1975 wrote: . Striving for it is fine, refusing to play with others who have less is not.
And no one has said that the latter is what they do. So you're tilting at windmills. Having fun with that?
Both my nephews have played 40k since they were 8 and they have gone through changing codexes and stats. They are not going to tear apart their minis and redo them just because GW decided to change the stats for Necrons.
Um. As far as I can think of, none of the Necron models changed much - they just got new ones. I mean, I could be wrong, but...
Actually, for something that supposedly does not happen I find it amusing that you guys get so defensive over it. It does say something.
It says that you keep making baseless claims and playing the martyr when you're called out on it, or that everyone else *must* be wrong...
Not baseless at all, proven, more than once. Baseless would assume and imply that it does not happen. Not sure where you get the Martyr crap. Meh.
This is some great stuff. I hope PB post this on there site as it can help people alot, more so to the new hobbyist. Also Anyone seen a nice scan of the rules?
A question that probably has been asked but scanning 246 pages is too much. I've seen the size of the valks compared to 40k marines but what about the destroids compared to battletech mechs?
The Glaug officer pod is too big but if the Tomahawk and Defender are close enough I'm totally buying a box.
Miguelsan wrote: A question that probably has been asked but scanning 246 pages is too much. I've seen the size of the valks compared to 40k marines but what about the destroids compared to battletech mechs?
The Glaug officer pod is too big but if the Tomahawk and Defender are close enough I'm totally buying a box.
M.
Doable. Warhammer is not on a hex base
Edit
Officer Pod Zentraedi compare to Battletech Marauder is a bit of a size difference.
So far what I am seeing the Battletech mini's are a bit smaller but mount them on a hex base then its a smaller dimension
So depending on what Mecha they are releasing over time
Battletech mini's
BattleMaster
Griffin
Wolverine
Archer
Crusader
Shadow Hawk
MAYBE the Pheonix Hawk
Rifleman
Crossbow
Could be playeable
I know there are a few others like the
Wasp
Stinger
I do not think their same dimension as the Veritechs
As for vehicles
Packrat
Van Lucks
LRM Carriers
F14 (Micro Armor)
Actually if you have the old Robotech RPG books one can hipp shoot stat sheets for those vehicles to add into the game
Missile Launchers like an MLRS can work
Strykers
1/500 scale Aircraft carrier can be kit bashed into Daedulus or Prometheus but there are four levels of the carriers and not including figuring out that ramp system if one want to do the scenario of Khyron bum rush onto SDF1
Thanks Jihadin. For heavy mechs it's within reasonable size, pity about the Valks being too big for the old Wasps and Stingers.
Upon reviewing the available pictures the Glaug is too big for battletech, the Marauder is only 5 tons heavier than the Warhammer (Tomahawk) and new figure is like 10/15% bigger perhaps?
Actually I've plenty of plastic card left and I still have all my refinement tool and calibers that I can add fitted modification onto a battletech figure. Two years as a aircraft frame repairman one can work with some small sheetmetal mayhem.
In fact I would hold off building terrain
I need a 6" inch steel ruler showing 1/64 measurement side against the Officer pod length wise for height
Also against lower leg
follow by upper leg
Body length
Body width
Body Height
weapon pod length and width
Upper Arm connecting to the weapon pod
Also the length of the small las..whatever the weapon is on top of the main body
So far what I am seeing the Battletech mini's are a bit smaller but mount them on a hex base then its a smaller dimension
So depending on what Mecha they are releasing over time
Battletech mini's
BattleMaster
Griffin
Wolverine
Shadow Hawk
I'm afraid that these 4 are Dougram Fang of the Sun (Along with the Goliath, Thunderbolt and Scorpion) so don't hold your breath. There is a new 1/72 kit released recently here in Japan but as you can imagine that's too big tho they make intersting proxies for 40K
Darn I have those to lol Goliath, Thunderbolt and Scorpian
One can use the Mech recovery vehicles from Battletech to add in. Also the Coolant carriers
karnov aircraft
Kestrel aircraft
Warrior helo works to
Micro Armour one can get the AWACS and mod the wings for the Robotech AWAC bird and/or reverse the wings for a forward swept for a Hell's Kitchen aircraft
I'm spit balling all this being I do not have my hands on the actual rule books/data cards to be able to hip shoot a conversion to expand the game
Mike just because you've seen something doesn't make it a universal truth & basically accusing anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view of wysiwyg being unimportant of power gaming is exactly what's bothering those who are upset not thatyou don't subscribe to what many do indeed consider a fundamental part of TTWG.
Further, I can only speak for myself, but I don't appreciate being talked down to by telling me to "move on". I'm not your child, nor do you know me in any sense & I wasn't remotely rude or disrespectful to you when attempting to illustrate why I & many others feel wysiwyg is important & thus why your remark that it doesn't matter if your cards are 5 points off or not may well matter to some people.
Typically in a court of law if opposing counsel is resorting to just being rude/petty it means he knows his case is weak or he's foundering & hoping to distract from the fact that he doesn't actually know what he's talking about. There aren't any fanboys to high five you for being rude here, you'll need to return to your Facebook group to have such negative behavior reinforced.
Now that being said, on to the pics. I'm still concerned about the sheer # of tiny parts & the way everything aligns. They look like model kits rather than gaming minis.
That's not a Robotech Tactics model, that's one of the prototype models I did in resin (prior to ND's work) my version is a bit bigger then the RRT ones.
(and people wondered why I pulled down most of my pics? it was to avoid this type of confusion with the official pieces)
Jihadin wrote: but what about the destroids compared to battletech mechs?
The Glaug officer pod is too big but if the Tomahawk and Defender are close enough I'm totally buying a box.
The Glaug is WAAAAY too big to be a proper scaled Marauder
Here's the official RRT Tomahawks next to BTech Warhammers, the RRT ones appear slightly smaller then then the BT models. (and are almost two heads smaller then the prototypes I made)
Red_Starrise wrote: Mike just because you've seen something doesn't make it a universal truth & basically accusing anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view of wysiwyg being unimportant of power gaming is exactly what's bothering those who are upset not thatyou don't subscribe to what many do indeed consider a fundamental part of TTWG.
Further, I can only speak for myself, but I don't appreciate being talked down to by telling me to "move on". I'm not your child, nor do you know me in any sense & I wasn't remotely rude or disrespectful to you when attempting to illustrate why I & many others feel wysiwyg is important & thus why your remark that it doesn't matter if your cards are 5 points off or not may well matter to some people.
Typically in a court of law if opposing counsel is resorting to just being rude/petty it means he knows his case is weak or he's foundering & hoping to distract from the fact that he doesn't actually know what he's talking about. There aren't any fanboys to high five you for being rude here, you'll need to return to your Facebook group to have such negative behavior reinforced.
Now that being said, on to the pics. I'm still concerned about the sheer # of tiny parts & the way everything aligns. They look like model kits rather than gaming minis.
Isn't that because they're using the old model kits parts breakup and just shrinking them? I remember hearing some talk about how the old nichimo kit parts breakup was very similar to the modern tomahawk one.
Red_Starrise wrote: Mike just because you've seen something doesn't make it a universal truth & basically accusing anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view of wysiwyg being unimportant of power gaming is exactly what's bothering those who are upset not thatyou don't subscribe to what many do indeed consider a fundamental part of TTWG.
Further, I can only speak for myself, but I don't appreciate being talked down to by telling me to "move on". I'm not your child, nor do you know me in any sense & I wasn't remotely rude or disrespectful to you when attempting to illustrate why I & many others feel wysiwyg is important & thus why your remark that it doesn't matter if your cards are 5 points off or not may well matter to some people.
Typically in a court of law if opposing counsel is resorting to just being rude/petty it means he knows his case is weak or he's foundering & hoping to distract from the fact that he doesn't actually know what he's talking about. There aren't any fanboys to high five you for being rude here, you'll need to return to your Facebook group to have such negative behavior reinforced.
Now that being said, on to the pics. I'm still concerned about the sheer # of tiny parts & the way everything aligns. They look like model kits rather than gaming minis.
1. My statement is that when players FORCE WYSIWYG onto others they are in the wrong. Do you force it on others in every and all cases? If yes, you are included in the people that I think ultimately hurt the game. If no, why are you so stuck on it. It's a very specific instance and you say you are not like that so there is no reason to take offense.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
3. Your second paragraph is just childish. I've never been rude or trashed people. I simply stated that if you are among those in #1 your actions are stupid and hurt the franchise and the minis business in general. If you allow some leeway then you do not apply. I care what others think and for the hobby or I would not be adamant to stand for what I see as a wrong. As adamant as you are to stand for what you see as a right.
4. WYSIWYG is a good thing to strive for, but common sense also needs to be taken into account.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
You don't know this for a fact and that is the whole problem.
3. Your second paragraph is just childish. I've never been rude or trashed people.
You just did!
4. WYSIWYG is a good thing to strive for, but common sense also needs to be taken into account.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
You don't know this for a fact and that is the whole problem.
I'm not sure how he wouldn't know the cards are identical to the PB ones. He has received his Wave 1 as quite a few others. He made the larger set (if that is what we are talking about) after receiving them so that players would have a larger 4"x6" version instead of a small card to read which is helpful. The stats are identical to the ones PB sent out.
Miguelsan wrote: Thanks Jihadin. For heavy mechs it's within reasonable size, pity about the Valks being too big for the old Wasps and Stingers.
Upon reviewing the available pictures the Glaug is too big for battletech, the Marauder is only 5 tons heavier than the Warhammer (Tomahawk) and new figure is like 10/15% bigger perhaps?
M.
The problem of course being that FASA just used the designs and ignored any reference to their relative heights in the original source. So now the official miniatures highlight the drastic rescaling that occurred within Battletech (such as a Battroid being made halfsize into a Stinger/Wasp)
Mike1975 wrote: 1. My statement is that when players FORCE WYSIWYG onto others they are in the wrong. Do you force it on others in every and all cases? If yes, you are included in the people that I think ultimately hurt the game. If no, why are you so stuck on it. It's a very specific instance and you say you are not like that so there is no reason to take offense.
Because you brought it up. You brought up that casual gamers are more interested in having fun (direct quote) and that casual gamers don't care about WYSIWYG. Therefore (using your argument) people who care about WYSIWYG don't care about having fun? If that's not what you meant then clarify yourself please - and take some time when writing posts to understand what they mean when you write them.
Modeling specific to what the unit has is *always* possible. Yes, it costs more in a model/time investment, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. The other option is to not take Heavy missiles if you don't have a model with them.
Like in Battletech - don't have a Victor model? Don't take a Victor.
You said,
Mike1975 wrote: It's a courtesy with people who can and plan on buying enough to make very specific army. At least this is not 40k where army lists can change yearly. Modeling specific to what the unit has is not always possible with casual gamers but more of a concern with more die hard players. I do not see it as something to be admired unless it is when the same requirements are not pushed onto others, which is typically the case. I have seen that scenario way too often.
Mike1975 wrote: No, many of us play with more casual gamers who are more interested in having fun instead of people who consider themselves Die Hards.
Miniatures gaming has and always will have a few factions, the die hards that want specific armies made to reflect the actual units in toto, who are typically very concerned with the rules and are often very competitive. They also are typically but not always very strict on painted minis and # colors and more.
Then you have more casual gamers that are not as strict but who love to play and that is their primary consideration when buying in to a game. A game with them may often have a 180 point game per side where one player asks if they mind if he ups it to 185 and the other may agree and change something on their own forces instead of focusing in on 180 points.
Then you have the players that play rarely, love the game, and are in many ways the opposite of the die hards. They want to play because they like the universe and story. These are the first and foremost to be pushed away by some, but not all, of those in the Die Hard category. The ones that adamantly push the rare player to conform to their view of what a "real" player is.
Those are what I've seen as the 3 primary groups. There are shades and variations of each.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a note, typically each group typically cannot understand how the others can enjoy the game in the way they play. The Rare and Die Hards are the most opposed and seem to conflict the most.
What we've said (and all we've said) is that we like our forces to be WYSIWYG. And if your cards aren't official (which you say they aren't, even though they're labelled that way) then following your cards can lead to issues. Like we said.
Korias1004 wrote: I don't know if I should sell off what I have as I do have wave 2 stuff coming, but only God knows when. So save it to sell as a bundle or take it out piece meal?
Any thoughts/suggestions? I'm watching 3 other battlecry pledges with the wave1 stuff on ebay and the current bid price is quite varied.
I'd either sell it as is (wave one bundle, in hand), or piecemeal now. Look at it this way; Wave One is mostly "chaff" units; things that people will have in sizable quantities even just with a core box or two. The supply is low and the demand is high, now is probably your best chance to get some sales in before online retailers are selling in bulk, bringing the Supply and Demand closer to equilibrium.
Which would be more lucrative seems to be a bit of a crapshoot, especially with the variable pricing for BC W1's on eBay, but on the up side it'd also be less work than listing and shipping a dozen or more sprue sets.
I'm not sure how he wouldn't know the cards are identical to the PB ones. He has received his Wave 1 as quite a few others. He made the larger set (if that is what we are talking about) after receiving them so that players would have a larger 4"x6" version instead of a small card to read which is helpful. The stats are identical to the ones PB sent out.
I have also recieved my wave one stuff. We didn't get all of the cards. You don't even get all of the cards for the product you have on hand. No one knows what is on the final revision of the cards outside of PB and people should not be claiming otherwise.
Isn't that because they're using the old model kits parts breakup and just shrinking them? I remember hearing some talk about how the old nichimo kit parts breakup was very similar to the modern tomahawk one.
Also, exalted for truth
What? Are you saying the Robotech kits are rescaled Nichimo kits? Who told you that?
Nichimo must have been using Cray supercomputers back in 1982 to do the CAD work.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
You don't know this for a fact and that is the whole problem.
3. Your second paragraph is just childish. I've never been rude or trashed people.
You just did!
4. WYSIWYG is a good thing to strive for, but common sense also needs to be taken into account.
This isn't what you said earlier at all.
If you think calling a comment childish rude.....you need some thicker skin.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, and the cards do have some changes, BUT they are all changes the I pointed out days before they went to the printer and I was told they were good before they went. So do I have PB telling me or sending me something saying this is the official stuff, no. Do I have a very high confidence that they did not make any other changes after they had told me that they were done and that the cards were ready? Yes. Use them or not.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
You don't know this for a fact and that is the whole problem.
I'm not sure how he wouldn't know the cards are identical to the PB ones. He has received his Wave 1 as quite a few others. He made the larger set (if that is what we are talking about) after receiving them so that players would have a larger 4"x6" version instead of a small card to read which is helpful. The stats are identical to the ones PB sent out.
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
oh, and the cards do have some changes, BUT they are all changes the I pointed out days before they went to the printer and I was told they were good before they went. So do I have PB telling me or sending me something saying this is the official stuff, no. Do I have a very high confidence that they did not make any other changes after they had told me that they were done and that the cards were ready? Yes. Use them or not.
*headdesk* dude... Can you see the contradiction here? This is why you should stop saying they match PBs stats. No one outside of PB knows for sure right now.
What? Are you saying the Robotech kits are rescaled Nichimo kits? Who told you that?
Nichimo must have been using Cray supercomputers back in 1982 to do the CAD work.
You may be on to something for the reason for the year long delay (and counting). Maybe when Ninja Division said they had to change the designs due to an incompatible file format it was because they submitted punchcards when they needed 8" floppies instead. Hopefully the 100MB zip drives Palladium upgraded to along with Win95 will prevent such issues with wave 2. *fingers crossed*
2. The cards are not off. They are identical to PB stats. Use them or don't if you are concerned. I've made them for myself and decided it would be useful to others.
oh, and the cards do have some changes, BUT they are all changes the I pointed out days before they went to the printer and I was told they were good before they went. So do I have PB telling me or sending me something saying this is the official stuff, no. Do I have a very high confidence that they did not make any other changes after they had told me that they were done and that the cards were ready? Yes. Use them or not.
*headdesk* dude... Can you see the contradiction here? This is why you should stop saying they match PBs stats. No one outside of PB knows for sure right now.
If it makes you happy I can email or text them and confirm it just for you.....some people.
What? Are you saying the Robotech kits are rescaled Nichimo kits? Who told you that?
Nichimo must have been using Cray supercomputers back in 1982 to do the CAD work.
You may be on to something for the reason for the year long delay (and counting). Maybe when Ninja Division said they had to change the designs due to an incompatible file format it was because they submitted punchcards when they needed 8" floppies instead. Hopefully the 100MB zip drives Palladium upgraded to along with Win95 will prevent such issues with wave 2. *fingers crossed*
LOL, I think it more likely the Chinese company wanted to coax some more $ out of an inexperienced customer.
Mike honestly at this point it would be better to push them to release the official cards. I honestly prefer your card layout to the official ones, we just need to be clear that they are unofficial and could be different from what the official cards will say when they release.
PB is totally notorious for making last minute edits to books that their paid writers have written. It is not even remotely unreasonable to expect they have changed things up on a fan volunteer without telling him.
What? Are you saying the Robotech kits are rescaled Nichimo kits? Who told you that?
Nichimo must have been using Cray supercomputers back in 1982 to do the CAD work.
You may be on to something for the reason for the year long delay (and counting). Maybe when Ninja Division said they had to change the designs due to an incompatible file format it was because they submitted punchcards when they needed 8" floppies instead. Hopefully the 100MB zip drives Palladium upgraded to along with Win95 will prevent such issues with wave 2. *fingers crossed*
Congrats to Palladium for upgrading their computers, but Ninja Division wrote the rules and did the 3D sculpts.
It's amusing to see everyone attempt to place blame on Palladium for what they imagine is an inferior product (it's not) with bad rules (they're pretty fun) and terrible models (they're quite good). The amount of twisting and stretching and conforming to blame the publisher and not the designer has been pretty damn amusing. Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)
If the VF-1J support card is still in there, then there is a flat out unofficial aspect to the files included.
It may seem like minutia to you, but calling something "official' without it being 100% Official is a problem for some people/groups. You've had your own "official" rules for ages now, and when pressed would note that they were 'basically' the official rules, but sometimes said they were 'better' because you were trying to future proof them for later releases, and yours had revision after revision going on with material added and taken away.
Look, the simplest route is probably to maintain 2 separate lists.
"OFFICIAL" cards; identical to the ones that PB releases, errors and all. Exactly what one would get in a core box or expansion pack.
"UNOFFICIAL" cards; your own personal extrapolations, based on unreleased content, things that probably should exist (the 1J support), etc.
If you want people to take your word that card set 1 is worthwhile as a backup, there needs to be zero differentiation (aside from layout/images I suppose) between them and the actual Official cards. If any changes were to be made, I'd go with Officially Released By Palladium Errata at most; stuff that they HAVE released on a web page, forum post or book update. The sort of stuff that would be played with at a tournament. And this needs to be anal retentively tracked and noted. This is the kind of info that must be accurate. If someone loses their cards or they're damaged or whatever and they did print off your copies to take to a store, league or tournament, there cannot be any confusion, mistakes or adjustments. Because accidentally taking a 305 point force instead of a 300 point force could be grounds for a penalty or dismissal from the event. As has been noted, just because Tournaments aren't for you doesn't mean the needs of tournament players can be ignored or played fast and loose with.
Set 2 is where you're free to do whatever you like, and note it as such. "Inspired by ____" cards, sensible tweaks, whatever. Maintaining both could be an issue as well, I'm not saying these suggestions are utterly foolproof, but there needs to be a clear demarcation between the two, and frankly, in the last year and a half it's generally not been there. You handwave it away as unimportant, despite several people noting reasons that it could very well be important.
For all the reasons people can come up with along with untold numbers of others.
Doubly so given that the cards contain information that is not found in the book, meaning players have no means of verifying it. Hell, writing in the missing info may be a very wise idea, messy as it might be for some of us with terrible handwriting.
What? Are you saying the Robotech kits are rescaled Nichimo kits? Who told you that? Nichimo must have been using Cray supercomputers back in 1982 to do the CAD work.
You may be on to something for the reason for the year long delay (and counting). Maybe when Ninja Division said they had to change the designs due to an incompatible file format it was because they submitted punchcards when they needed 8" floppies instead. Hopefully the 100MB zip drives Palladium upgraded to along with Win95 will prevent such issues with wave 2. *fingers crossed*
Congrats to Palladium for upgrading their computers, but Ninja Division wrote the rules and did the 3D sculpts. It's amusing to see everyone attempt to place blame on Palladium for what they imagine is an inferior product (it's not) with bad rules (they're pretty fun) and terrible models (they're quite good). The amount of twisting and stretching and conforming to blame the publisher and not the designer has been pretty damn amusing. Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)
Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.
judgedoug wrote: Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)
To address this musing, it's entirely possible that the reception would've been different without needing to be tied to strictly "rawr Palladium bad!".
Quality of rules, quality of the pieces, these are subjective (with some objective elements) and will fit or not into people's tastes differently. While ND supposedly wrote the rules, we know that PB was involved in both playtesting and adjusting, along with the (depending on ones viewpoint) anchor that being tied wholeheartedly to their RPG version. It's not like they didn't get input.
But communications? In terms of quality/accuracy? They done fethed up. It's gotten better in recent months, but they spent over a year promising the moon and failing to clear the atmosphere, and the contrast between those lofty aspirations and what has apparently kinda sorta begun delivering to 1/3 - 1/2'ish of the backers has been an issue.
Note; that rough estimate is included simply to indicate that only a fraction of the backer base even has their boxes, meaning that very few people are making fully informed comments/opinions just yet. They claim to have mailed out thousands of boxes (2,500-2,700 perhaps?) but considering a giant pile (over half, maybe even 2/3) of them just went out a week ago, many are probably just reaching those doors now.
Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.
Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.
judgedoug wrote: Regardless of who was publishing it, the end result of Ninja Division's design work would be the same. I wonder if the criticism would also be the same? (nope, not if it was any other company)
To address this musing, it's entirely possible that the reception would've been different without needing to be tied to strictly "rawr Palladium bad!".
Of course the reception would be entirely different. If it was CMON, Mantic, Reaper, or any other much-beloved Kickstarter company, the hysteric hyperbolic vitriol would have been massively toned down. "Because it's Palladium", "Palladium at it again", "the Maiden Siembieda", etc. Palladium certainly sucked at any sort of comms until, what, about six months ago? I guess whenever Palladium and ND stopped trying to pass the buck and Wayne took over the weekly updates or whatever. Coincidentally that is the same time I personally went from "I give up on this project" to "Now I'm interested again." But any other company under the publisher banner, with the same circumstances and the same actions, would have had an entirely different reaction, despite having the same designers involved.
Swabby wrote: Looks like a whiteknight, acts like a whiteknight, must be a whiteknight!
YES! That's me. A true Palladium white knight, who owns all of their products and defends every decision they have made and... wait.
Tuesday, October 7, at 1:34PM, when my Robotech wave 1 package was delivered, marked the arrival of the first Palladium product that I have purchased in over 20 years and is the only Palladium product that I currently own (I sold my Robotech RPG books back in the late 90's)
SO, I must be a Ninja Division white knight since I like the models and the rules (so far!) A true Soda Pop miniatures white knight, who owns all of their products and... wait
Tuesday, October 7, at 1:34PM, when my Robotech wave 1 package was delivered, marked the arrival of the only product that I own that was designed by ND or Soda Pop or Relic Knights or whatever their company is branded at any given point.
Judgedoug I am not sure what reaction you expect when you jump into a conversation to defend a product and company that are still racking up scorn among the folks who made the product possible.
It certainly seems different from the reactions people are having.
I mean come on dude, you (or I, or anyone) do not have any idea how another company would have been treated if they were pulling the same stuff over a timeline this long.
Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.
Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.
I thought your "point" was that I was incorrectly assigning all the blame to Palladium. I bolded the part of my post that YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED TWICE NOW in an effort to promote better understanding on your part regarding what was actually said. You, in effect, had/have no point.
In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Mike1975 and anyone else who has played with terrain:
Have you found the buildings too easy to destroy? From the reports at gencon, it seemed like alot of folks (including "do you want me to be nice or an ass?" Jeff Burke) were blowing straight through whole sections of cities. I plan on using the DZC buildings which, other than the largest pieces, would fall under the "office building" category and are less than 5in cubed in volume. At only 4mdc, pretty much every weapon can one shot a building if it manages to hit the proverbial broad side of a barn.
Warboss those times sound right. My first spartan took 4 hours to assemble from start to finish, now I am down to about 40 minutes each model with careful prep work. Still daunting when you look at what is in the box.
The game itself is fun but there are quite a few rules that are up in the air until we hear more from palladium. I would say it has great potential systemwise if it is properly supported.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.
And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.
Really? To each his own I guess. It just seemed odd that each valkyrie can blow apart two buildings per turn with its GU-11 gun pod. I'm not too familiar with the missile rules but that obviously doesn't count the potential for taking out whole blocks; can missiles target multiple buildings even if they don't have the blast trait? Can you take out multiple buildings with a single blast weapon shot? I don't have the rules with me at the moment but it felt a bit much from a reading of the rules.
Wow, that is some seriously bad reading comprehension fail there, Judge. I'll bold the key part where I first assigned part of the blame to ND. You apparently missed that in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin. I'm fully aware that the last four crowdfunding attempts by ND and PB that have started delivering in some fashion have all been at least a year late. There is plenty of blame to go around and I'm sure all four companies involved (ND, PB, HG, and the factory) each contributed.
Ah yes, if you do not whole cloth attack Palladium with every breath that you can muster, you are a white knight for Palladium. Thanks for proving my point.
I thought your "point" was that I was incorrectly assigning all the blame to Palladium. I bolded the part of my post that YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED TWICE NOW in an effort to promote better understanding on your part regarding what was actually said. You, in effect, had/have no point.
I've ignored it twice because it's not worth responding to?
My point being the "with us or against us" mentality. If one doesn't attack Palladium with righteous zeal, one must be a white knight. As you ("in your zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin") and swabby (who I can only assume facetiously called me a "White Knight") keep delightfully proving. Because I have a modicum of praise for Ninja Division's efforts (again, the game is "pretty fun" and the models are "quite good"), and don't wholly blame just the publisher - Palladium - I have a, again, "zeal to defend the Maiden Kevin"!
warboss wrote: In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.
Yeah, one game with Manchu, got most of the core rules down, and it was "pretty fun".
I've assembled four Valkyries so far, the last two I got done in about 30 minutes.
Regults take about 10 minutes.
I'm sure it's different for others, as I've had experience assembling 1/72 tanks. With machine guns the size of an eyelash and individual track links. I don't think I ever didn't lose a piece when I was assembling those in my early teens so I think my brain has adapted to holding pieces that are being clipped with side cutters as well as a 90% rating in my Spot Tiny Pieces skill check.
And no I do not think the buildings are too easy to destroy.
Really? To each his own I guess. It just seemed odd that each valkyrie can blow apart two buildings per turn with its GU-11 gun pod. I'm not too familiar with the missile rules but that obviously doesn't count the potential for taking out whole blocks; can missiles target multiple buildings even if they don't have the blast trait? Can you take out multiple buildings with a single blast weapon shot? I don't have the rules with me at the moment but it felt a bit much from a reading of the rules.
Haven't used destructible terrain rules yet but a quick glance shows the smaller lighter buildings pretty easy to take out - in your example you'd have to spend CP to do that and still roll to hit (as they have Defense). It also has the caveat that if it's larger than the assumed dimensions, multiple the MDC by the appropriate amount. I'm thinking they are based on the idea of, well, the first few episodes of Robotech with buildings blowing up all over the place (or VF-1D Battloids crashin through a dozen of them). Honestly Regults should be spending their particle beam shots trying to put damage on Valkyries as their life expectancy is about a turn anyway.
Judgedoug can you point out a post where anyone called you a white knight?
I was commenting above because you both derided warboss for something he did not say while in the very same post defended paladium in a fallacious argument.
But as far as I can recall no one has come right out and called you a white knight.
I've ignored it twice because it's not worth responding to?
Um... no. You ignored it because you're too stubborn to admit that the underlying premise of your response (my supposed unfair singling out Palladium to blame) is completely and utterly wrong as proven by the bolded part of the initial post that you somehow completely missed. You've now moved the goalposts to something only vaguely related that developed as a response to your initial "point" as you've finally realized that their original position is and always was impossible to defend. Just make sure to lift with your legs so you don't hurt your back when it requires further movement or backtracking.
Yeah, one game with Manchu, got most of the core rules down, and it was "pretty fun".
I've assembled four Valkyries so far, the last two I got done in about 30 minutes.
Regults take about 10 minutes.
I'm sure it's different for others, as I've had experience assembling 1/72 tanks. With machine guns the size of an eyelash and individual track links. I don't think I ever didn't lose a piece when I was assembling those in my early teens so I think my brain has adapted to holding pieces that are being clipped with side cutters as well as a 90% rating in my Spot Tiny Pieces skill check.
If your Regults take only ten minutes, you must be using CYA glue and accelerator combined with some seriously fast clipping. That's pretty impressive. In any case, the basic regult isn't half as difficult as the specialty ones in terms of parts count but I suspect the little barrels will result in more than a few cuss words uttered and parts lost or damaged. When I was looking at the command sprues and the finished models, my first thought was that even with careful storage alot of zentraedi figs will be modelled with battle damage after only a few games as those tiny parts break.
Did you use any city terrain? How big of a board did you guys play on? Was it in person or on a virtual tabletop?
judgedoug wrote: [Haven't used destructible terrain rules yet but a quick glance shows the smaller lighter buildings pretty easy to take out - in your example you'd have to spend CP to do that and still roll to hit (as they have Defense). It also has the caveat that if it's larger than the assumed dimensions, multiple the MDC by the appropriate amount. I'm thinking they are based on the idea of, well, the first few episodes of Robotech with buildings blowing up all over the place (or VF-1D Battloids crashin through a dozen of them). Honestly Regults should be spending their particle beam shots trying to put damage on Valkyries as their life expectancy is about a turn anyway.
Yup, you'd have to spend a CP to knock out the second building with a rapid fire GU-11 but it is odd to me that a GU can take out two buildings in one burst. As for the dimensions, I posted that I plan on using the DZC terrain and most of the buildings (3 out of the 5) are less than 5 cubic inches total in volume by a rough count. One is only 50% larger (so 6mdc) and the other (the tallest) maybe get close to double if you round up. I suspect I'm probably not the only gamer that will use the set (if you haven't seen or heard about the cityscape set, I recommend you check it out as it is great for the cost). Metagame-wise though, if you've got an attrition squad of a dozen or more pods and the RDF squadron you're facing is taking cover behind a building or two, why wouldn't you spend a single model's activation to knock down the cover and remove a penalty for the other 11+ models in the squad?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swabby wrote: Actually warboss after looking at the mdc values again yeah, they could be increased. I was thinking they started more at the high end.
Yeah, it surprised me that they had so little. 4mdc for a 6 story building (admittedly a civilian one) seemed a bit low as it put it firmly under what pretty much the standard weapons of each mech can do. Put simply, cover tends to benefit the elite smaller model count forces a bit more as they are already hard to kill and the smaller model count makes using the cover effectively easier (no crowding behind it). If I'm a zentraedi player on an urban battlefield, why NOT spend a single full core squadron's worth of activations to completely destroy the half table's worth of cover over on the enemy's side? Granted you still have to hit but a def of 3 isn't hard to meet or beat even for a lowly z-clone.
It seems to me at least that they should roughly be doubled. At 8mdc for an average 5x5x5" building, you'd at least have to devote a power weapon to destroy it in one shot.
Swabby wrote: I was also under the impression they left a ruin and not area terrain rubble. This to me is reason to not populate a board full of buildings.
IIRC it said area rubble but I'll have to check tonight to be sure. I don't recall seeing a "ruin" as a terrain type but I definitely could have missed it. When I was reading about the buildings, the wording of area rubble made me refer to the previous page about area terrain. Depending on how you model the rubble, it'll count at least as rough terrain and possibly still generate cover depending on the height. I actually modelled some of my DZC buildings in two different stages of damage anticipating something like that.
Also, I took a quick peek online and it looks like I was quoting the wrong numbers for the buildings. A standard civilian building of 5x5x5" is only 2mdc, not the 4mdc I've been posting. A VF-1J can bring down a multistory building in one shot with its head lasers.
@Warboss, buildings are a Joke, they need to be 4x to 5x stronger IMHO, some say as much as 10. Keep in mind that they typical mini missile does 2 damage and then main guns on a Pod do 4.
Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC) Typical Residential Buildings.
Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC) Typical Commercial or Office Buildings.
Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC) Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian.
Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC) Civilian Construction in Military Zones.
Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC) Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures.
Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC) Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications.
Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet.
UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF.
warboss wrote: In any case, has anyone tried playing a game since they got the stuff? I brought the rules and a few sprues to see if anyone was interested at my FLGS and I actually saw someone else did the same (or technically brought his whole battlecry pledge). We didn't play a game since between the two of us there was one model assembled at that point though. He did try assembling some of the Zentraedi as they appeared easier to assemble at first. Pretty much universally, the gamers playing various games (40k, x-wing, AQOTMF) were pretty shocked at the number of small pieces. The other guy assembled the command pack models to mixed results. While it was heartening to see in person assembled models for the first time in over a decade (since I last went to gencon and someone had some bootlegs), it also took him roughly 3 hours to assemble 3 pods. While the recovery pod went together pretty easily as it had the fewest parts count, the recon and glaug pods had roughly 3-4 pieces that broke while clipping off the sprue with clippers due to their tiny size and one piece actually flew off into the air never to be found when clipped. If you're assembling the zents, be very careful when you clip off the multitude of tiny antenna type pieces as they're both fragile and hard to find if lost.
My local store (Game Empire Pasadena) had a demo game last Tuesday. I watched, largely because I was hanging out hoping that my friend would show up (he pledged, but he's not a gamer; he didn't show, and later said that he'd had to work late). iirc, the assembled models included four VFs in each of the three modes, two Tomahawks, roughly a dozen Regults, and a Glaug.
As mentioned, my friend isn't a gamer. As of the last time I spoke to him about it (last Wednesday), his box still hadn't arrived. After reading some of the stuff here, I pre-emptively loaned him my clippers. I've got a feeling that they'll be even more useful than they normally are.
(ironically, my copy of Planetfall then arrived a couple of days later, and I found myself wishing I had my clippers on hand ^^;; )
I've already told my friend that I want to get his (non-gamer) impressions of the package, and the work involved in assembling the figures.
Mike1975 wrote: @Warboss, buildings are a Joke, they need to be 4x to 5x stronger IMHO, some say as much as 10. Keep in mind that they typical mini missile does 2 damage and then main guns on a Pod do 4.
Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC) Typical Residential Buildings.
Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC) Typical Commercial or Office Buildings.
Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC) Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian.
Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC) Civilian Construction in Military Zones.
Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC) Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures.
Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC) Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications.
Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet.
UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF.
SDC strikes again! I think it is a safe bet to double them as well as somewhat aggressively err on the stronger side when looking at a building to see what type it is. I dont have any issue with an average house/cottage being destroyed by a single missile at 2mdc but I'd look at the situation a bit funny if a battlepod blast didn't at 5x the current 1mdc. The DZC building in their retro styling are all concrete/brick so they fit in ok at 8mdc for each 5" cube with doubling. At 8, theyre immune to one shotting by most standard weapons but the big guns still take them down in one shot.
My local store (Game Empire Pasadena) had a demo game last Tuesday. I watched, largely because I was hanging out hoping that my friend would show up (he pledged, but he's not a gamer; he didn't show, and later said that he'd had to work late). iirc, the assembled models included four VFs in each of the three modes, two Tomahawks, roughly a dozen Regults, and a Glaug.
Any thoughts on the gameplay and/or models or thoughts on it from the players?
Any thoughts on the gameplay and/or models or thoughts on it from the players?
I didn't stick around past the first turn or so. Play seemed a bit slow, but I think that had as much to do with the players (being unfamiliar with the rules) as anything else. Also, the store owner (who played) said he found some mistakes that were made when he reread the rules afterwards. I didn't ask him for details.
The game certainly seems workable. Whether it's a good game or not is too early to say. The rules will need to go through a good pounding to see if anything can be broken or badly abused. And something felt a bit off, though I can't put my finger on what that might have been. It's possible I was merely undergoing a flashback to the bad old days playing the Robotech RPG.
A more solid review will need to wait until I get an actual game in myself, with the full gamut of rules. And while I didn't buy into the Kickstarter, my friend will probably contact me for his "learn the rules and playtest" game.
Note that the faction rules weren't being used. The Zentraedi factional rule was interesting. If a Regult dies near a Glaug, then it can be brought back on the table at the start of the next turn. The UEDF faction rule was simple enough. Blow up an enemy unit, and a nearby unit gets a free attack. But the rationale came across rather oddly. It involved cocky pilots trying to one-up each other.
@Warboss, the 4-5x is just to make sure that a Phalanx can't level the table is just a turn or two. With the blast missiles a Phalanx could level a few blocks even at 2-3x damage.
Container #4 is currently being reviewed by US Customs in Detroit. Our Customs broker spoke with an officer today, and apparently they were concerned about the packaging of the Battle Cry bonus items. As many of you know by now, these are sealed in a clear plastic bag with a simple label denoting its part number, KS9991-A. We sent a letter to Customs explaining that these weren't an item for retail sale and they would never appear in stores, so hopefully that will be cleared up and the container will be released this week.
Container #5 is making good time through the railway system, and arrived in Chicago this morning. We might very well get it by the end of this week, sooner than we expected.
And in even more pleasant news, the shipping line's tracking site reports that Containers #6 and #7 were just put "on-rail" about an hour ago! If the previous two containers are any guide, that means they should depart LA in a couple of days, and arrive in Detroit about 10 days later. We sure hope so.
Container #8 arrived in port yesterday, and Container #9 is at sea. When either one will reach us is a mystery thanks to the current state of affairs at the Port of LA, but they'll get here eventually.
On our end of things, we're currently shipping Showdowns and the tail end of the Battle Cry rewards. The Battle Cry packages going out now are the ones that include a Battle Foam Bag, so they take a bit longer since they sort of need custom packaging. (Those bags are big.) With very few exceptions, all the other domestic Battle Cry packages have shipped.
Things have slowed down a bit since we're running low on the main box as we await the next container, but now that two containers appear to be just a few days away, things will start flying out the door again. I expect a long weekend and upcoming week in the warehouse for us. My chiropractor will be thrilled.
Jihadin wrote: GU fires a ten round burst 100mm size AP rounds
It's a triple barrelled 55mm cannon unless they've retconned that since I last looked.
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Mike1975 wrote: @Warboss, the 4-5x is just to make sure that a Phalanx can't level the table is just a turn or two. With the blast missiles a Phalanx could level a few blocks even at 2-3x damage.
Ah, I'll have to take a look at that one then as blast missiles is one thing I was worried about and mentioned earlier. Perhaps the issue isn't bumping up the building stats by 500% but rather toning down the Phalanx if 200% will cover the vast majority of cases.
I'd say limit damage from regular weapons on buildings to 1 pt per shot. Only apply full damage if the weapon has the blast trait (instead of the blast radius, contained damage and all that).
Yes, a 55mm ap round (or laser shot) will punch through a civilian grade building without much trouble, but it also won't inflict much structural damage to the building. You really need explosives (or fire) to cause serious demolition.
If your Regults take only ten minutes, you must be using CYA glue and accelerator combined with some seriously fast clipping. That's pretty impressive. In any case, the basic regult isn't half as difficult as the specialty ones in terms of parts count but I suspect the little barrels will result in more than a few cuss words uttered and parts lost or damaged. When I was looking at the command sprues and the finished models, my first thought was that even with careful storage alot of zentraedi figs will be modelled with battle damage after only a few games as those tiny parts break.
Did you use any city terrain? How big of a board did you guys play on? Was it in person or on a virtual tabletop?
Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.
Yup, you'd have to spend a CP to knock out the second building with a rapid fire GU-11 but it is odd to me that a GU can take out two buildings in one burst. As for the dimensions, I posted that I plan on using the DZC terrain and most of the buildings (3 out of the 5) are less than 5 cubic inches total in volume by a rough count. One is only 50% larger (so 6mdc) and the other (the tallest) maybe get close to double if you round up. I suspect I'm probably not the only gamer that will use the set (if you haven't seen or heard about the cityscape set, I recommend you check it out as it is great for the cost). Metagame-wise though, if you've got an attrition squad of a dozen or more pods and the RDF squadron you're facing is taking cover behind a building or two, why wouldn't you spend a single model's activation to knock down the cover and remove a penalty for the other 11+ models in the squad?
I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.
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warboss wrote: SDC strikes again! I think it is a safe bet to double them as well as somewhat aggressively err on the stronger side when looking at a building to see what type it is. I dont have any issue with an average house/cottage being destroyed by a single missile at 2mdc but I'd look at the situation a bit funny if a battlepod blast didn't at 5x the current 1mdc. The DZC building in their retro styling are all concrete/brick so they fit in ok at 8mdc for each 5" cube with doubling. At 8, theyre immune to one shotting by most standard weapons but the big guns still take them down in one shot.
Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?
Swabby wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.
Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...
judgedoug wrote: Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.
I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.
Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?
Ah, preclipping would save some time if not included in the 10 minutes. I'll eventually see sometime this month how long it takes but I may be tempted instead to try and assemble the QRaus instead as my opponent won't have any of those.
Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.
Swabby wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.
Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...
Even at 1MDC an inch, you could get some pretty high values. An average 3"W x 5"L x 3"T civilian apartment building would have 45MDC... and that is the weakest structure around and the values would go up for anything that looks reinforced. The more I think about it, the more I like doubling the MDC and just halving the damage from non-melee/blast weapons. It's quick and simple and IMO still gives you a semblance of what you see in the show without making it too metagamey easy ridiculous to abuse. A regult or valkyrie GU could still one shot a small house but not a full apartment building. Now I just have to see if my opponent will be ok with that. Ah, the joys of Palladium gaming... house ruling right out of the box!
I have this weird feeling that they were expecting this to go down like their RPGs without really anticipating how much scrutiny there would be on the rules.
I am predicting a second edition ruleset before the release of the masters saga at this rate.
judgedoug wrote: Plastruct Plastic Weld. Ten minutes for assembly. I've been pre-clipping everything into little piles of arms/legs/etc so I guess maybe another ten minutes for clipping? I can usually get 3 models clipped, cleaned, assembled in an album length - the newest Interpol is about 40 minutes, which I've been listening to like non-stop. But yeah, I have dropped many a part and cursed said parts but I have yet to lose one or break one (aforementioned 1/72 armor experience probably being my saving grace). I think Manchu broke one of his pod antenna though.
I agree buildings seem too weak, but I have yet to attempt to destroy terrain to see if it even matters. It might simply be one of balance, in that, if too tough, no one will attack/destroy buildings. Plus, there's so very few blast weapons (the Monster's cannons... what else? Phalanx?) that most of the firing has to specifically target the building.
Honestly it's probably the 5" cube thing. That's a LOT of volume. It also means a single rancher has the same def/MDC as a row of townhouses. A small apartment building would be maybe 3" cube, right? Why not just use the same def and MDC and keep it in multiples of 3"?
Ah, preclipping would save some time if not included in the 10 minutes. I'll eventually see sometime this month how long it takes but I may be tempted instead to try and assemble the QRaus instead as my opponent won't have any of those.
Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.
Swabby wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: The 5" cube thing is absurd. That is a huge building at 6mm scale.
Agreed, I think it was just to blanket say it covers just about any building. Of course you could do X MDC per square inch and measure every building before play...
Even at 1MDC an inch, you could get some pretty high values. An average 3"W x 5"L x 3"T civilian apartment building would have 45MDC... and that is the weakest structure around and the values would go up for anything that looks reinforced. The more I think about it, the more I like doubling the MDC and just halving the damage from non-melee/blast weapons. It's quick and simple and IMO still gives you a semblance of what you see in the show without making it too metagamey easy ridiculous to abuse. A regult or valkyrie GU could still one shot a small house but not a full apartment building. Now I just have to see if my opponent will be ok with that. Ah, the joys of Palladium gaming... house ruling right out of the box!
Do 1 MDC per 3 in^2 or 4 in^2. I'd have to work the numbers a bit.
I honestly don't see what the issue with building damage is:
Brick and Wooden Construction (DF: 3, 1 MDC) Typical Residential Buildings. - This is meant to be representative of things like a typical single family home.
Steel and Glass Construction (DF: 3, 2 MDC) Typical Commercial or Office Buildings. - Don't think of this as a skyscraper/high rise type building. Think of things more like a local strip mall or a 2-3 story glass facade office building.
Concrete and Steel Construction (DF: 3, 4 MDC) Industrial Buildings, Military or Civilian. - Imagine warehouse/factory buildings, they are largely a shell structure with little in the way of internal structure, theres really not that much there to 'destroy'.
Modern Reinforced Construction (DF: 3, 8 MDC) Civilian Construction in Military Zones. - The 'in military zones' bit is misleading, 'modern reinforced construction' would actually be the definition (roughly speaking in civil engineering terms) of most commercial buildings built in the past 100 years or so, including most high rise and skyscraper buildings in most major cities (well, in the US at least, European cities are a bit of a different animal). If you're using Dropzone Commander buildings, these would be the most accurate representation of them.
Military Grade Construction (DF: 4, 12 MDC) Military Housing, Office Building, and Base Structures. - This might be a bit misleading, most military structures not built for defensive purposes are really no different than the "modern reinforced construction", but can be used to represent more robust structures in a pinch.
Fortified Military Construction (DF: 4, 20 MDC) Fortified Bunkers, Gun Pits, and other fortifications. - Seems legit.
Zentraedi Starship Construction (DF: 4, 25 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the Zentraedi Fleet. - Seems legit, remember it is crashed.
UEDF Starship Construction (DF4, 40 MDC) Crashed Spacecraft of the UEDF. - Seems legit, remember it is crashed.
As for the talk of the Gu-11, etc. As others have pointed out, its a 55m round. To put it into perspective for you, thats slightly larger than 2 inches in diameter, almost 50% larger than the 40mm round shown here:
Due to the physics involved with weapon design, a 50% increase in round size can easily translate to a 200% increase in destructive capability. Beyond that, the 40mm round used by the Bofors is 80 year old technology, a more modern 40mm design is capable of causing significantly more damage due to evolutions in our understanding of ballistics, aerodynamics, and projectile, propellant, and explosive design. To try to put it into further perspective for you, 60 mm is the size of the M224 light mortar in use by the US Army & Marines. A 60mm HE mortar round has a lethal radius of 20 meters, which is larger than the 2000 SF house I presently reside in. Further, a mortar is a low velocity, high angle projectile with none of the kinetic energy of a high velocity, high rate of fire, low-angle direct firing cannon.
Further, the game is an abstraction, even though the weapon might have an ROF of 3 for gaming purposes, you can rest assured that its representative of firing several times that number of rounds. So assuming that GU-11 is firing 3-4 rounds per ROF listed in the weapons profile, it is easily capable of one-shotting my current dwelling. 6-8 rounds worth of damage is reasonable for wrecking a small office/commercial steel & glass construction, 12-16 rounds is also reasonable for a concrete & steel construction, etc.
Put another way, an Apache fires a 30mm round (the same one used by an A-10), a couple rounds from one of those is more than able to feth my house as well as most small buildings. A 55mm even moreso.
Don't forget we are talking up to a 5 x 5 x 5 building. 1 inch is 330 feet you are talking a pretty big building. So your house would be like 1 x 1 x 1 at most.
Buh? If the scale is 1:285, 1 inch = 285 inches, or 23.75 feet.
A 5 x 5 x 5 cube would be a building roughly 118.75 feet on a side, which is pretty big, but obviously not that immense. Though you don't generally see ~12 story buildings that are that wide and deep, at least in residential and commercial districts I'm familiar with. Maybe some industrial areas?
If the GU11 is capable of leveling a house into rubble with one shot why does that zentradi in episode one keep moving after taking like at least 6 rounds to the chest?
Forar wrote: Buh? If the scale is 1:285, 1 inch = 285 inches, or 23.75 feet.
A 5 x 5 x 5 cube would be a building roughly 118.75 feet on a side, which is pretty big, but obviously not that immense. Though you don't generally see ~12 story buildings that are that wide and deep, at least in residential and commercial districts I'm familiar with. Maybe some industrial areas?
What Forar said. An average suburban home in the US would probably be closer to 1.5x1x.5 (lxwxh), a 5x5x5 building of modern reinforced construction at 8 MDC is therefore reasonably appropriate. Using the GU-11 might not be the best metric however considering that some weapons that are theoretically more powerful issue out the same amount of damage, thats why I pointed out the abstraction element and that 1 ROF isnt the same as 1 actual bullet being fired.
B) Man, we've been over this (and why some of us feel it's important to be clear) like six times in this thread alone.
C) Frankly, I haven't exactly been counting, but a lot of the times you drop these things it seems to be out of the blue. Sometimes people ask for access to this or that, but often comes across as more of a 'oh, look at what I've been up to' thing, so trying to play it off like you're being unappreciated isn't exactly lining up with what actually happens.
D) Why bother continuing to post 'em? Just put links in your sig and anyone looking for them will know to just find one of your posts, which shouldn't be hard to do. And then when someone does ask, you can just comment that they can be found in your sig, triumphantly! The sig is the gift that keeps on giving!
Swabby wrote: So few blast weapons? Bombs, missiles? They are everywhere and easily accessible.
Hmm a quick perusal... Phalanx has 11 Blast missiles... Monster has 16 Blast shots from it's primary cannons... for Zentraedi, Heavy Artillery pod has 4 Blast missiles, NGer, QRau, and Infantry have some blast weapons.
I think that's it?
Pretty much most of the solutions presented would work to make buildings more durable (assuming that you think they need to be). Changing to 3" cubes and doubling the values are roughly equivalent. One thing to consider is that with blast weapons unlike normal ones, you don't have to neglect shooting at the opfor while destroying buildings. You target a model using the building as cover and both are hit if the shot lands. I guess in addition to tweaking the values you could also specify that only blast weapons and melee do full damage to buildings and other weapons (that instead shoot through without much structural damage) do half damage instead. That way you still get the cinematic valkryie ramming/bodyblocking a small building (like, say, Minmei's apartment/restaurant) and doing significant damage but not the odd situation where most mecha can falcon punch the Sears Tower (or whatever it is called now) to death in one shot.
Again, I haven't played with building destructibility yet, so I don't have a valid opinion on whether or not buildings need to be more durable.
However, I think a good solution would be to keep the rules as printed, and just make it so non-blast weapons cause 1 damage (putting a big hole in it, maybe starting a fire).
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Swabby wrote: If the GU11 is capable of leveling a house into rubble with one shot why does that zentradi in episode one keep moving after taking like at least 6 rounds to the chest?
We also see a Regult fire it's auto-cannon at, and blow up, a building in one episode. The show is definitely not ruled by any real world physics.
Swabby wrote: So few blast weapons? Bombs, missiles? They are everywhere and easily accessible.
Hmm a quick perusal... Phalanx has 11 Blast missiles... Monster has 16 Blast shots from it's primary cannons... for Zentraedi, Heavy Artillery pod has 4 Blast missiles, NGer, QRau, and Infantry have some blast weapons.
I think that's it?
The YF4 LRMs, Valkyries get gravity bomb upgrades in the UEDF and improvised bombs as malcontents. This is why I wish we could see all the upgrades in the book on each unit rather than have the information on the cards only. I am confident there are more but I don't have the cards on me :(
I listened, I even changed the name twice for you all. Explained where and how the data came from, and some decided to still be confused when everywhere else this has been posted at nobody seems to have the same confusion. So instead of further complicating things it's easier to just share with those who appreciate it.
Not sure where this KS idea comes from but meh, I did this to help, if people don't want it there is no sense pushing it is there?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose I could rename them for you
LOL Mike! Dude, I actually appreciate what you are doing. Please don't take it that way at all. You have been a tremendous resource and help throughout this whole kickstarter.
Let us help you in return man. The feedback on the "official" wording is not a criticism of your efforts, just a clarification to help kill possible confusion that could pop up.
Personally, if I see "official", it should have come from the people in charge. Not "inspired by", not "mostly official stuff with a few un-noted unofficial additions", purely, 100% and totally official. Stuff I could take to a tournament or league and have it check out against everyone else's cards/books.
There is totally space for unofficial material!
But it's not mixed in with official stuff.
Hell, as I've said before, go the sig route.
OFFICIAL RDF cards in one link.
OFFICIAL Zentraedi cards in another.
and UNOFFICIAL vehicles, mechs and options in a third.
Bam, useful tool for the community, a sig that does vastly more than most, no confusion as to what is what.
Yeah, sorry Mike, but all your hard work will remain unappreciated until a time when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
If it's any consolation, your unofficial stuff is great!
I'd like to apologize. I didn't realize that you suffered from that often unreported allergy to putting notes at the beginning of files explaining what the card colors mean. I realize that it can be a life threatening condition, and all, that can be uncomfortable to talk about in public.
I myself labor under chronic signature blindness.
I'll just say, once again, that's it's a really nice gift horse that you're providing.
Joyboozer wrote: when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
Huh... other than an Executive Producer and Additional Game Concepts (I'm assuming things like MDC), Kevin is remarkably absent from the credit-taking for the project. (Credits, page 02)
Plenty of other names taking up the Creative Director, Lead Game Designer, Game Design, Game Concepts, etc., positions.
Are there names along the side of the cover? It's pretty rare for his not to be there, usually solo or shared with someone else.
It famously came up during the 'Bill Coffin Talks About Working With Palladium Thread' on rpg.net
Not that I subscribe to it mattering, just pointing out that if you lined up a hundred PB books, his name is probably on 90+ of them, and to hear it be told, how that comes to be can be a frustrating experience for some of the other writing staff/freelancers/etc.
Joyboozer wrote: when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
Huh... other than an Executive Producer and Additional Game Concepts (I'm assuming things like MDC), Kevin is remarkably absent from the credit-taking for the project. (Credits, page 02)
Plenty of other names taking up the Creative Director, Lead Game Designer, Game Design, Game Concepts, etc., positions.
Eventually I hope to be able to find that out for myself.
Yikes, been so crazy busy I have not had time to post as often as I would like. Things are starting to move fast now. The Rifter® #68 and Bizantium and the Northern Islands™ (for Palladium Fantasy®) are both in final production.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Container #4 finally arrived today! Container #5 arrives on tomorrow!! Container’s #6 & 7 are en route! Woohoo. About freakin’ time! We plan to work all weekend and ship out to another 1,000 Kickstarter backers on Monday. Meanwhile, a few hundred went out this week (we could not send many until we received the containers with new product to ship.) Looking for volunteers.
Christmas Surprise Packages shipping out by the ton too.
So much going on. Make sure you checkout Friday’s Weekly Update. More to follow. Game on!
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Publisher, Writer and a very tired Game Designer
Joyboozer wrote: when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
Huh... other than an Executive Producer and Additional Game Concepts (I'm assuming things like MDC), Kevin is remarkably absent from the credit-taking for the project. (Credits, page 02)
Plenty of other names taking up the Creative Director, Lead Game Designer, Game Design, Game Concepts, etc., positions.
Sadly as a PB book, that likely means he heavy handedly rewrote the book.
Joyboozer wrote: when Kevin can completely rewrite everything you've done and take credit.
Huh... other than an Executive Producer and Additional Game Concepts (I'm assuming things like MDC), Kevin is remarkably absent from the credit-taking for the project. (Credits, page 02)
Plenty of other names taking up the Creative Director, Lead Game Designer, Game Design, Game Concepts, etc., positions.
Sadly as a PB book, that likely means he heavy handedly rewrote the book.
He wrote the introduction which is pretty goddamn awful. The rules themselves are very easy to read, almost conversational in tone, which makes the concepts relatively easy to pick up. Again, I'm going to guess that's all Ninja Division. Since all the game design credits are for people other than Kevin S.
Check the mini update above. They just got a new container in, which was necessary because they'd pretty much run out of stuff to ship. Hopefully another big wave will go out this weekend. If we're really lucky, that might even take care of the US backers (there's only 1,3000 Showdowns, give or take, sending out 1k on top of the others they've sent really should be getting close).
Apparently they're supposed to get another container tomorrow, putting them up to 5 out of the 6 they apparently need (at least part of) to fulfill backer allotment entirely, which means no more excuses; ship hard and everyone gets their stuff in the mail soon.
Or "Soon®™".
There's a light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm wary of getting my hopes up. Having it in hand by December may be a tall order at this rate, especially as the holidays start to clog up the mail.
I actually originally just had (tm)(r)(c), but that didn't seem right, so I copy/pasted the TM and R from the RRTKS page.
And was too lazy to go find the ascii code for c.
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chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, I know, just gettin antsy. Its my stuff and I want it nao!!
These containers only cover wave 1 product though right? Im assuming wave 2 is going to be another year long wait?
Correct that they will only cover wave one. Apparently there are 9 containers total, and 1-5 (plus a small part of 6) will cover the Backers. Then it's pre-orders, then it's retail. So even if they do get backers and pre-orders covered, they'll probably have less than 2 containers to begin shipping out to retail, and 2 more en route.
Wave 2 was last spoken about in any real detail a few weeks ago, where they were "looking at 3Ds" or something. Renders, I presume, but given how long it took to get final final ultra final super duper final approval on wave one and begin punching plastic sprues en masse, I doubt it's going to take less than half a year to approve and begin punching/shipping W2. Q1 is right out, Q2 is a maybe (but Chinese New Year will crop up again at the end of 1), Q3 in time for Gencon is probably their target, at my estimate. Otherwise they go through that rigmarole all over again.
I believe Wayne commented on the facebook page that some Wave 2 was already in tooling. Of course I'll never be able to find the quote since it's a FB group.
If that's the case then hopefully they can show us some test sprues in the near future, unless they're waiting for all the molds to be done before they punch even the test plastic.
Not to be a source of 'ongoing negativity', but I'm afraid "pics or it didn't happen" is where I think we're at. I'm totally happy to hear that they're doing stuff, but I'll believe it when they show they're doing stuff. Y'know? Talk is cheap, but test sprues speak volumes.
The best thing to cushion the blow of bad news is but look at theses awesome pics. Like Forar I think it's a real worry that wave 2 is a long way off as there is no progress to show.
im inclined to agree with those that were of the opinion that they ran out of money for wave 2, seems more and more likely...
Hell, im skeptical as to whether or not wave 1 has even shipped out yet, doesnt seem to br much in the way of people posting pics or reviews out there kt seems, just a couple here and there that say stuff without evidence to back the claims.
They're out there. Hell, some are up on ebay right now.
Keep in mind they've only shipped out about 1,200 boxes until early last week, and even know that number is probably around 3k or less, with many of those probably still in the mail, or sitting on dining room tables, or in various states of assembly. Even getting another 1k out the door early next week might still leave them with thousands to ship, depending on how many late backers joined and how fast and loose they've been with their shipping number estimates.
Wave Two, however... well I'll believe they're making steps towards actual production when I see pics of stuff from actual production like test sprues. Hell, even 3D printed prototypes of stuff from sprue layouts would be a start. Having the renders? That could mean almost anything, from what we saw with Wave One.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From the Weekly Update:
Container #4 arrived yesterday (Thursday) and Container #5 arrived today, Friday, November 7. Meanwhile, Containers #6 and #7 are on a train and we should get them next week – provided they are not held up by Customs or other delays. Woohoo! About time. Of course, we started shipping immediately.
Bolded: lawl.
Robotech Expetiionary Marines The Long Name Means It's Important Right?: Delayed to Jan 2015. Oh, so apparently it's finally no longer totally a 2014 release. (not that I care, but having to scour these things for the last year and a half means certain names keep popping up and get noticed)
Apparently they have 50 extra Battlefoam bags left over, which can be 'pre-ordered' for $120. Only a $20 markup from the original cost, though I'm betting shipping on something that size (plus anything else ordered) will be spicy.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – shipping like crazy
Container #4 arrived on Thursday. Container #5 just arrived as I was finishing writing this Update! Containers #6 and #7 should arrive next week or early the following week. And as you might expect, we will be shipping like lunatics all weekend long. We have already started shipping as soon as Container #4 arrived yesterday morning. Showdown is what’s being shipped to USA customers. Reckless will follow. Then shipments go out to Canada and overseas. We are shooting to have another 1,000 packages ready to ship by Monday. The staff is on-board and Mark Dudley and Chuck Walton will be available to help as well.
HELP Wanted: Volunteers wanted the weekend of November 8-9 and November 14-16
We are going to be shipping like mad for the next few weeks.
Are they sure one person wrote this? If so, they keep repeating themselves. Did you hear that the containers arrived and they're planning to ship like mad demons?
*jazzhands*
*snip* Please pick up your stuff! Please!
*snip* Please update your shipping address! Please!
The status of wave two worries me as well. I feel like PB needs to sell wave one at retail and for it to be a success to pay for wave two. Even if by some chance RRT makes it to retail before Christmas it's still no guarantee it'll be a success.
In other news I got an email letting me know my showdown was sent.
Are you talking about the robotech specific battlefoam bag or just "battlefoam" in general? If the former, it supposedly has enough space for a battlecry pledge which frankly seems a bit optimistic given how spread out some of the robotech models are with their wide stances and various antenna. It definitely won't hold a showdown. For that you'd need at least a 720 bag from them assuming that number still holds true. When you select a bag on their website, you choose whether it comes empty, with precut foam, or with custom foam in order of ascending $$$.
Cypher-xv wrote: The status of wave two worries me as well. I feel like PB needs to sell wave one at retail and for it to be a success to pay for wave two. Even if by some chance RRT makes it to retail before Christmas it's still no guarantee it'll be a success.
In other news I got an email letting me know my showdown was sent.
What is your backerkit number/pledge number? I have not gotten an email for shipping yet, and was around 500 for my backer kit number. I've read someone with a higher number than mine that has a shipping notice.
They originally said they were going by Backerkit number.
From reading people's numbers as they got orders, that seems to be entirely incorrect, and are instead going by Country -> Order size -> KS Backer#, if anything.
I'm sure it's not a perfect setup, but that seems to be at least vaguely the direction they're going in.
Forar wrote: They originally said they were going by Backerkit number.
From reading people's numbers as they got orders, that seems to be entirely incorrect, and are instead going by Country -> Order size -> KS Backer#, if anything.
I'm sure it's not a perfect setup, but that seems to be at least vaguely the direction they're going in.
Well, crap. As this kickstarter is the only reason I joined kickstarter. I will then be the last US order shipped as I am like 3000+ on the kickstarter numbers. Paid real quick and was pledge number 523. If I had the gas, they are only 6 hours away from me........
Forar wrote: They originally said they were going by Backerkit number.
From reading people's numbers as they got orders, that seems to be entirely incorrect, and are instead going by Country -> Order size -> KS Backer#, if anything.
I'm sure it's not a perfect setup, but that seems to be at least vaguely the direction they're going in.
Well, crap. As this kickstarter is the only reason I joined kickstarter. I will then be the last US order shipped as I am like 3000+ on the kickstarter numbers. Paid real quick and was pledge number 523. If I had the gas, they are only 6 hours away from me........
You shouldn't be too far out. I was backer 2865 and mine shipped toward the end of the last container. I had no add-ins though.
If they actually ship out around 1,000 backer boxes this weekend, they should at the very minimum be getting close to completing US distribution. Your stuff really should at least be in the mail in the next week and a half.
Again, if they've been up front with us, which is NOT something one can take for granted, but for now that's all we have to go on.
They said they needed 5 containers (and a bit) to ship out to backers, they have 5 containers on hand. Either they proceed to deliver to everyone, or they get to walk those goalposts back further, but we SHOULD, basically, be coming to the end of wave one for US delivers.
International shipping, I'm not very confident on. Oh, I still believe they SHOULD have the materials, but how long it'll take? Not confident at all.
Cypher-xv wrote: The status of wave two worries me as well. I feel like PB needs to sell wave one at retail and for it to be a success to pay for wave two. Even if by some chance RRT makes it to retail before Christmas it's still no guarantee it'll be a success.
In other news I got an email letting me know my showdown was sent.
What is your backerkit number/pledge number? I have not gotten an email for shipping yet, and was around 500 for my backer kit number. I've read someone with a higher number than mine that has a shipping notice.
I'm in the mid 200's for backerkit and mid 500's for backer. My SD should be here in a few days.
Anyone here going to burn a sprue to test for toxicity?lol
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
