The Druggoi are the leaders of a band of ravenous monsters infected with a deadly virus known as the Drugoul. These beasts then fall into lesser categories including the Gluttons and the Terrors. Each of them is a fearsome foe ready to rip you limb from limb.
Conversely the Eightfold Path are a religious order of valiant warriors. They are dedicated to the eradication of evil, especially the Druggoi. Made up of two main sections the order is split into the Initiates and the Ascended. The Ascended are those who have consumed the blood of the Druggoi and have not been corrupted. Those who pass the test have shown their strength of will.
Sounds a lot like Dragon Age, no?
Some features:
- active/reactive player structure
- custom dice
- there will be standard fantasy races
I'm more curious about the miniatures. I own my own body weight in 4Ground buildings (none of their fantasy range) but I want to know who is sculpting/producing their miniatures and what the ranges will consist of.
If they're multi-part plastics it could be very interesting (some great kits coming out of non-GW shops for fantasy). I hope their level of precision in their buildings follows over to the quality of a table-top game. I don't love the artwork I've seen so far - so that's a "meh" sign.
4Ground has been really good to work with in the past so I expect this should be good if not great.
judgedoug wrote: Man, I kinda really like that art by Jared Blando. It's like an interesting stylized update to late 80's RPG art.
Very much agree. I am especially interested in the "not-Blight" bad guy range.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I wonder if we'll be seeing more in the way of ruins rather than intact buildings.
The current line has a nice mix. I think this KS will be more about the game and minis and expanding the fairly extensive terrain range will be something of a sideline.
BoW are running a weekender and speaking to one of the developers soon - anyone who is member there, would be extremely grateful if you could report back any gossip!
Chap posting in BoW says the miniatures do exist (as he has seen them!) so hopefully they will appear some point soon.
Definitely think there is an alternative to another Mordheim-esque game alongside Frostgrave so very excited about this, if 4ground even apply half of their design ability that they show with their buildings this should be something special!
I was pretty happy with the stuff on the BoW video - not super stoked by some of the mechanics, but the sculpts look really fantastic (only in 3D form at the moment, so I'll reserve judgment). If they're a good material, well printed/produced and are reasonably priced I'll definitely be in for some miniatures even if I don't jump on the game.
Love the artistic style of the "good guys" from that video.
I'm digging the monster type creatures.....they look what I think GW vampires should. The humans are alright.....I really like the men-at-arms models, but the two leaders are a bit over done I feel. Too many accessories and what not. I'm also starting to wonder why fantasy miniature sculptors put visors on their miniatures at all. I know it's an artistic thing so you can show off the model's face/emotions, but it is getting a bit tacky having a piece of armor that is never used on models. Why not just omit it?
The visors make sense to me. I doubt that most knights fought visor-down all the time anyway. Unless you were expecting serious quantities of arrows or bolts heading your way, you would probably be better off being able to see well than being 100% protected. You really can't see much at all with a visor down...
It's well worth watching the product feature over on BoW.
Some highlights and a couple of things that stood out for me if you aren't watching:
- The game designers have real RPG roots. For anyone who thought the campaign system was a little light in Frostgrave, it sounds like this could be much more in depth. It sounds like the developers really spent some time investing character and a narrative to their game stories over many years, and want this to be an integral part of playing the game.
- The mechanics. There is a face-to-face type role for attack and defence, reactive turn sequence (definitely sounded like elements of Infinity), special dice for hits, misses, crits with dice cancelling each other out (a la X-Wing). Again, it comes across as more depth than Frostgrave, but would need to see the game in action to determine how much it slows down the play. Certainly, the use of symbols on the unit cards, not having to track experience with pen and paper (which sounded like another nice touch, as much as some of us actually enjoy doing this!) makes me think this has been through a fair bit of playtesting, and believe it was mentioned in the video that you're looking at an hour or less for a game once you know it. Also, containing elements of two of the game systems so fondly thought of in terms of Infinity and X-Wing, can only be a good thing!
- The miniatures are nicely detailed and characterful. Again, independent detail and character on each one (which would lend itself to campaign) rather than just 'Henchman A mk2'. The scale and heroic proportion means you could probably swap in GW, Frostgrave etc. pretty easily if you wanted to.
- The art, styling, setting is quite distinctive. There is definitely a 'horror' vibe going on with the bestial/vampyric bad guys (Draguul? Not sure of spelling), and the 'virus' idea of the transmission brings to mind something like Blade 2. The different species all transforming to a Draguul equivalent is a nice touch. Will be interesting to see what the other factions and races are like, but it sounds like an awful lot of background already there from the 10 years or so the developers say they have been playing with the background setting. Personally I loved the retro-style fantasy artwork, but understand this won't be to everyone's taste.
- And of course, lovely terrain to use the miniatures with. I really hope there is some 'town + miniatures' level for the forthcoming KS, can see that being pretty popular if they do, even if you have to get out a second mortgage to pay for it!
Overall certainly looking very positive and can't wait for future info, and hopefully get a test drive at Salute!
Anyone else have the feeling like there might have been a Dragon Age minis game in the works here but the licensing fell through? In the BoW vid, the 4Ground gents attribute the game's inspiration to a D&D campaign but there were not a lot of details. The art style definitely echoes DA and the setting conflict seems beat for beat like the Blight from DA. (Not that this is a bad thing, mind.)
Manchu wrote: Anyone else have the feeling like there might have been a Dragon Age minis game in the works here but the licensing fell through? In the BoW vid, the 4Ground gents attribute the game's inspiration to a D&D campaign but there were not a lot of details. The art style definitely echoes DA and the setting conflict seems beat for beat like the Blight from DA. (Not that this is a bad thing, mind.)
Ian Sturrock wrote: The visors make sense to me. I doubt that most knights fought visor-down all the time anyway. Unless you were expecting serious quantities of arrows or bolts heading your way, you would probably be better off being able to see well than being 100% protected. You really can't see much at all with a visor down...
Sure, some knights didn't even have a visor, but like 90% of fantasy knight miniatures have a visor and are never using it. What's the point in including it in a sculpt? It's just very tropey. Have worn a few different medieval helmets with visors (and a number of goalie masks of different designs) you can see a lot better than you'd think. What is generally more limited is your peripheral vision. And honestly unless you are at extreme range a visor won't protect much against an arrow (at least from a long bow) or a bolt, as they are made of thinner metal than the rest of the helm generally. They were more important in protecting against cheap shots up close. You don't have to hit someone very hard in the face to disorient them and throw them off-balance, at least that's what I was taught in judo (fortunately I haven't had to test that one out).
All that aside...my main issue is that it's just so common on fantasy miniatures these day, I'd rather them just not include it.
Sabotage! wrote: I'm digging the monster type creatures.....they look what I think GW vampires should. The humans are alright.....I really like the men-at-arms models, but the two leaders are a bit over done I feel. Too many accessories and what not. I'm also starting to wonder why fantasy miniature sculptors put visors on their miniatures at all. I know it's an artistic thing so you can show off the model's face/emotions, but it is getting a bit tacky having a piece of armor that is never used on models. Why not just omit it?
I think you answered your own question!
Plus, visors on helmets of Medieval styled minis is a trope now?!?
Also, Manchu, port some of those pics over here already - it is your sacred duty as the OP of this thread!!!
Sabotage! wrote: I'm digging the monster type creatures.....they look what I think GW vampires should. The humans are alright.....I really like the men-at-arms models, but the two leaders are a bit over done I feel. Too many accessories and what not. I'm also starting to wonder why fantasy miniature sculptors put visors on their miniatures at all. I know it's an artistic thing so you can show off the model's face/emotions, but it is getting a bit tacky having a piece of armor that is never used on models. Why not just omit it?
I think you answered your own question!
Plus, visors on helmets of Medieval styled minis is a trope now?!?
Also, Manchu, port some of those pics over here already - it is your sacred duty as the OP of this thread!!!
Haha, I don't mean the visors themselves are a trope, I mean including the visors and never having a model using it is the trope. Much like the infamous boob-plate and what not.
Sabotage! wrote: Have worn a few different medieval helmets with visors (and a number of goalie masks of different designs) you can see a lot better than you'd think. What is generally more limited is your peripheral vision
My experience of 14th and 15th century re-enactment is that most helmets massively limit your vision, and thus, fighting capabilities, during combat. This is especially the case in a line fight (where that peripheral vision is vital) but even one-on-one, the inability to see much below your opponent's chest means they can get a lot of hits in...
Manuscripts seem to show a mix of visors up and down. I don't believe the distinction is as strong as I maybe implied -- down to protect against arrows, up for close combat -- but I do know that most visors are designed to be easily raised and lowered with one hand, even in a gauntlet, and good at staying where you put them. That implies to me that visor up, or down, at any given moment, is a tactical decision and one that you can make and act on very rapidly. There are plenty of reasons why you might suddenly need more vision and breath, particularly if you're the unit leader, as for this dude.
Anyway! I like the minis as they are. I'm sure a head swap for a down visor or full-head helm would be pretty easy though.
Sabotage! wrote: Have worn a few different medieval helmets with visors (and a number of goalie masks of different designs) you can see a lot better than you'd think. What is generally more limited is your peripheral vision
My experience of 14th and 15th century re-enactment is that most helmets massively limit your vision, and thus, fighting capabilities, during combat. This is especially the case in a line fight (where that peripheral vision is vital) but even one-on-one, the inability to see much below your opponent's chest means they can get a lot of hits in...
Manuscripts seem to show a mix of visors up and down. I don't believe the distinction is as strong as I maybe implied -- down to protect against arrows, up for close combat -- but I do know that most visors are designed to be easily raised and lowered with one hand, even in a gauntlet, and good at staying where you put them. That implies to me that visor up, or down, at any given moment, is a tactical decision and one that you can make and act on very rapidly. There are plenty of reasons why you might suddenly need more vision and breath, particularly if you're the unit leader, as for this dude.
Anyway! I like the minis as they are. I'm sure a head swap for a down visor or full-head helm would be pretty easy though.
I didn't have a that experience so much with extremely limited vision, but the two helmets I did wear were later 15th century (great bascinet) and early 16th (armet) and they did have large eye ports than a lot of helmets I have seen. I also did not wear them in a combat or mock combat situation. But I can see how the limited vision could be detrimental in some situations.
It does seem most visors can easily be pushed up and do a fairly good job at staying there (though I am no expert on this), and I could see the merit of having your visor up if you were issuing orders on a battlefield.
My main issue isn't so much that this miniature has a visor that it isn't using, but how it seems most fantasy knight miniatures these days have visors and are never using them. I just feel it is overdone to the point that they shouldn't even include visors on a miniature if they are never going to be shown in use.
Anyways, I should probably stop hijacking this thread with a relatively minor critique of the heavily armored fantasy miniatures produced today, haha.
More images up on the Fabled Realms facebook page and Beasts Of War of the Druggoi Henchmen models. Unfortunately I can't post the images as I'm not forum adept... sorry.
More images up on the Fabled Realms facebook page and Beasts Of War of the Druggoi Henchmen models. Unfortunately I can't post the images as I'm not forum adept... sorry.
Regards,
Cad
They indeed look very nice! Very interested in this project.
I'm pretty keen on the gritty Eightfold Path and Druggoi. The Mordanburg Guard are dipping into more generic, high-fantasy waters. Feels off-brand compared to the Dragon Age-esque dark fantasy stuff first shown.
Manchu wrote: I'm pretty keen on the gritty Eightfold Path and Druggoi. The Mordanburg Guard are dipping into more generic, high-fantasy waters. Feels off-brand compared to the Dragon Age-esque dark fantasy stuff first shown.
I don't disagree with you, but I like the new stuff regardless. I love the fact that an Orc is the leader, and there are two females in the group (not that the latter is immediately apparent).
I got to play a demo with of this at the uk games expo earlier today. I have to admit, this has gone from sorta-interested to must-buy as the mechanics were quite refreshing.
The entire system is reaction based. Each force gets a number of action points (I forget what they were actually called) that have to last your turn and your opponent's. These points are used to activate a character or squad, either as part of your turn, or as a reaction to something.
As an example I had two points to spend. The first was used to declare a move towards the enemy. The enemy spent one of theirs declaring a charge at the point he thought I was going to move into. As these two conflicted, we had an initiative style roll off to see who actually activated first. I won, forcing him to move first and only moving part of the way, causing his charge to fail.
Characters have base stats. That are dice related, for example my hero had a base attack of two d6 and one d8. He also had a heavy sword that added another d8 and a skill that added another d6 and d8. As a character or soldier gains xp, new skills or equipment, these dice will change making them stronger.
The dice are special dice containing blank faces, hit, critical and in the case of the d12, super criticals. Tests are Vs rolls with the symbols cancelling each other out. Critical and super criticals both cause one wound each; one or more unsaved hit symbols equates one wound, regardless of number.
Each force has a deck of cards that they get to draw from that include events, spells or special effects for use. Some of these are generic, others are force or character specific. There was one that was a suicide attack that, if successful, outright kills the enemy model... at the expense of your character's life as well.... so rarely used!
When someone reach a 0 wounds you roll to see if they are out of action or dead. In most cases they are just out of action and will heal up over time. Dead is dead and the winner gets to loot the bodies. We didn't get to talk more about the rest of the between-game bits sadly.
Model wise they have lots of plans for figures and terrain to add as stretch goals. Terrain will be included in the campaign at roughly 20% discount. They are still working the numbers. He did say there will be one level that includes about £1800 worth of terrain for about £1200-ish for the uber rich. There are also new terrain sets for this, including a neat fort with four multi floor buildings and walls.
There is a lower level that includes the starter set (two forces, rules, cards, tokens and enough terrain for a 4x4 table for about £200. What they consider enough terrain is about 4 or 5 ruins and a tree or two. Again, this isn't final and they keep adding more in.
Video battle reports will be going up on BoW in the next week or so to show off more of the rules
While I'm not overly enthusiastic about the resin (that may actually keep me from this) I'll look to buy in for the minis - been playing a bunch of Mordheim lately and I'd really like to use a bunch for a warband. I also play an Undead warband so I might even use the bad guys -- the rage merchant looks freakin' awesome.
endtransmission wrote: Characters have base stats. That are dice related, for example my hero had a base attack of two d6 and one d8. He also had a heavy sword that added another d8 and a skill that added another d6 and d8. As a character or soldier gains xp, new skills or equipment, these dice will change making them stronger.
Do you know if all the characters are pre-named or if we're going to be able to make our own?
endtransmission wrote: I got to play a demo with of this at the uk games expo earlier today. I have to admit, this has gone from sorta-interested to must-buy as the mechanics were quite refreshing.
The entire system is reaction based. Each force gets a number of action points (I forget what they were actually called) that have to last your turn and your opponent's. These points are used to activate a character or squad, either as part of your turn, or as a reaction to something.
As an example I had two points to spend. The first was used to declare a move towards the enemy. The enemy spent one of theirs declaring a charge at the point he thought I was going to move into. As these two conflicted, we had an initiative style roll off to see who actually activated first. I won, forcing him to move first and only moving part of the way, causing his charge to fail.
Characters have base stats. That are dice related, for example my hero had a base attack of two d6 and one d8. He also had a heavy sword that added another d8 and a skill that added another d6 and d8. As a character or soldier gains xp, new skills or equipment, these dice will change making them stronger.
The dice are special dice containing blank faces, hit, critical and in the case of the d12, super criticals. Tests are Vs rolls with the symbols cancelling each other out. Critical and super criticals both cause one wound each; one or more unsaved hit symbols equates one wound, regardless of number.
Each force has a deck of cards that they get to draw from that include events, spells or special effects for use. Some of these are generic, others are force or character specific. There was one that was a suicide attack that, if successful, outright kills the enemy model... at the expense of your character's life as well.... so rarely used!
When someone reach a 0 wounds you roll to see if they are out of action or dead. In most cases they are just out of action and will heal up over time. Dead is dead and the winner gets to loot the bodies. We didn't get to talk more about the rest of the between-game bits sadly.
Model wise they have lots of plans for figures and terrain to add as stretch goals. Terrain will be included in the campaign at roughly 20% discount. They are still working the numbers. He did say there will be one level that includes about £1800 worth of terrain for about £1200-ish for the uber rich. There are also new terrain sets for this, including a neat fort with four multi floor buildings and walls.
There is a lower level that includes the starter set (two forces, rules, cards, tokens and enough terrain for a 4x4 table for about £200. What they consider enough terrain is about 4 or 5 ruins and a tree or two. Again, this isn't final and they keep adding more in.
Video battle reports will be going up on BoW in the next week or so to show off more of the rules
That sounds really interesting. Hopefully there is a peon level pledge or something for those of us that can't shell out 200 pounds sterling on a KS....
Gallahad wrote: That sounds really interesting. Hopefully there is a peon level pledge or something for those of us that can't shell out 200 pounds sterling on a KS....
The £200 level just came up because I was asking about the terrain. There will be lower pledges, but I don't know what these are.
There wasn't any information on custom characters, but it would not surprise me if there were. Everything else seems well thought out. Given that it is an rpg-like system it would make sense that the named characters are just for the starter set or quick play *fingers crossed*
We only have 3 days left to release, so I'm surprised we don't have more action in here. Let's correct that shall we?
The starter sets seem to contain 3 characters, 5 supporting troops, an A5 rulebook, dice, tokens, all the required cards, a measuring tool and a Character sheet pad, which implies that you may be able to create your own characters... *fingers crossed*
The campaign is starting with two factions, the Druggoi and Eightfold Path, with two others being unlocked through stretch goals.
There seem to be additional squads that will come in smaller packs. Each contains unique sculpts and character cards for each that include small stories for each.
Two of the pledge levels have been shown so far. There is the £40 level that gets you one starter box and a KS character
The bigger pledge looks great (not sure I need two of the A4 books though!). The A4 book contains 100+ pages of fluff as well as the rules included in the A5 starterset books
I was actually about to post this, didnt know there was a thread already, musta missed it. But yeah, this looks great so far. I love 4Ground's buildings, I own lots of the fabled realms buildings already.
I'm looking forward to the KS. Won't be able to invest heavily unfortunately, but I'll go in for a few minis at least.
I really hope some "minis only" options will be available. I'm not foaming at the mouth for the rules really - but love the figures. I'm also curious to see how/what they are. I asked on Facebook and they said a kind of resin...then my question was erased from Facebook and they told someone else plastic.
I kinda hope the do a middle ground 2 player pledge. I want enough stuff to play without expecting others to go into the kickstarter, but I don't know if I necessarily need the £150 worth of scenery.
Not the middle ground pledge you were hoping for, but kind of interesting none the less. Someone else asked about the £200 pledge without the second A4 rulebook. Unfortunately their response was that you can make a similar pledge from the lower tiers and add in extras.
For £800 you get everything in the £200 level, a gaming mat and 3 days up at BoWHQ with the game's writers where you get two sets of the preproduction resins (plus prototype cards/rules/dice) to paint and game with. You'll be taught how to play and go through a campaign with 11 other lucky people. This includes hotels and food, but not travel costs. Interesting, but not for me.
Spoiler:
You get to take away all the bits afterwards to carry on playing with. One thing this did let slip is that it will not deliver until September 2018(ish)
They have also shown the sketches for another of the stretch goal characters
Interesting. I've been after a Mordheim replacement for years. It all depends on the gameplay for me. I thought Frostgrave was going to be it, but it didn't satisfy. Have there been any gameplay previews yet?
And is it just me or do the Mordanburg fellow look like they just stepped out of a theatrical enactment of Guards! Guards! ?
The sketches of the Mordanburg guard really do look like the City Watch, yes. Probably why I'm liking them so much
I have played the demo a few weeks ago and really enjoyed it. They didn't go into too much detail as it was only one round to show actions, reactions and combat, but it was good fun.
They didn't talk about the character evolution either, but hopefully we should hear more about that on friday
Unless I'm mistaken, the terrain consists of:
Damaged Mordanburg Highstreet House 2
Mordanburg Damaged Dwellings 1
Damaged Mordanburg Highstreet House 3
4 Young Oak/Beech Trees
2 Mature Ash
2 Mature Chestnut
Total on 4Ground website = 142.50 (not £150)
Total from Wayland Games = 114.40 (add two starters for 194.40)
And that's before we start pointing out that spending over £40 on 8 trees is just silly.
Now I'm tighter than a nun's chuff at times, so the big £200 offer is going to need some back up to make it a lot more palatable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
endtransmission wrote: One thing this did let slip is that it will not deliver until September 2018(ish
Ah.
I wish them all the best and I'll definitely be checking it out when it's released, but....
edit: turns out there's also a well in the £200 pledge (£9 on 4Ground website, £7.20 on Wayland)
I feel that release date is pretty realistic. If there are PDFs of the rules we'll no doubt have access to them sooner than their physical counterparts (I would imagine at least).
I'm kinda alright with just getting a starter set then looking at adding a second, I guess it depends on the price they're asking.
Alpharius wrote: Do you feel like it can be the spiritual successor to Mordheim that we're looking for?
While I'm quite interested in some of the models this will be producing, final quality dependent, I always wonder when I see sentiments like this; "Why not just play Mordheim?". The rules are free, suitable models are abundant for most factions, and if you're bored of the original setting or core campaign mechanics there are at least half a dozen fan supplements set all over the Warhammer World to play through, and more than double that number if you're willing to put in a little work to tidy them up a bit. It's not like persuading local gamers to try some random kickstarter game is going to be any easier than getting an SG campaign started.
Normally people like to play alive games that have continous developement and ampliation from their creators.
I agree that many times, fans creations are just flat out better than official ones. But that first statement remains true.
Galas wrote: Normally people like to play alive games that have continous developement and ampliation from their creators.
I agree that many times, fans creations are just flat out better than official ones. But that first statement remains true.
Pretty much this, more or less?
As annoying as it may be, 'dead games' (or those that are perceived as 'dead') are often not played frequently/commonly and it becomes very hard to find opponents for them.
Same will hold true for 40K now.
It is all well and good to say "No one's going to kick down your door and burn your 2nd - 7th edition stuff, keep playing that if you like it!", but try to actually find a game of it, and, well...
Beside, I was just asking for his opinion on the subject - and knowing if it compares favorably to M. is a nice shorthand, of sorts, here.
Galas wrote: Normally people like to play alive games that have continous developement and ampliation from their creators.
I agree that many times, fans creations are just flat out better than official ones. But that first statement remains true.
Pretty much this, more or less?
As annoying as it may be, 'dead games' (or those that are perceived as 'dead') are often not played frequently/commonly and it becomes very hard to find opponents for them.
Same will hold true for 40K now.
It is all well and good to say "No one's going to kick down your door and burn your 2nd - 7th edition stuff, keep playing that if you like it!", but try to actually find a game of it, and, well...
Beside, I was just asking for his opinion on the subject - and knowing if it compares favorably to M. is a nice shorthand, of sorts, here.
Oh I've made that argument myself and I often resent the effort it takes, but I'd rather not "settle" - I've found getting folk started on an SG campaign isn't actually any more effort in practice than getting them invested in a game that isn't a main GW line no matter what they say about favouring "actively supported" products, because what they mean when they say that is "I'm not interested/able to put time & effort into finding a game, so I play what everyone else here already plays", in which context it doesn't matter if you're pushing Fabled Realms, Mordheim, or Malifaux.
Alpharius wrote: Do you feel like it can be the spiritual successor to Mordheim that we're looking for?
No idea. The demos didn't go into the warband evolution, other than there is some.
They keep referring to something called the Legacy system, which seems to be where you gan grow/evolve the warband. The way stats and equipment are handled also implies that your group can get better as I'm assuming that dice will improve for skills and better equipment will also grant more dice. There is also the card decks that *may* evolve, but don't quote me on that one... they may just become more useful or form more synergies... who knows. Hopefully we will find out more tomorrow.
Unlike Mordheim though, the supporting troops work as units, so in the Eightfold Path set you get three characters, a unit of two spears/halberds and a unit of three guys with axe/shield. The reactions system does look like it will give a nice interaction in very close quarters fighting though.
Alpharius wrote: Do you feel like it can be the spiritual successor to Mordheim that we're looking for?
I spent some time watching the BoW intro videos when this first surfaced, my first thought is 'yes', or at least much more so than Frostgrave, which although fun doesn't seem to have the level of detail that Mordheim had, and was more the action-RPG to Mordheim's Fire Emblem-type RPG (if you can forgive the video gaming comparison!)
Looking on the front page of the thread I can quote myself (normally a dreadful thing to do but no way at all I can remember stuff from back in Feb! )
Some highlights and a couple of things that stood out for me if you aren't watching:
- The game designers have real RPG roots. For anyone who thought the campaign system was a little light in Frostgrave, it sounds like this could be much more in depth. It sounds like the developers really spent some time investing character and a narrative to their game stories over many years, and want this to be an integral part of playing the game.
- The mechanics. There is a face-to-face type role for attack and defence, reactive turn sequence (definitely sounded like elements of Infinity), special dice for hits, misses, crits with dice cancelling each other out (a la X-Wing). Again, it comes across as more depth than Frostgrave, but would need to see the game in action to determine how much it slows down the play. Certainly, the use of symbols on the unit cards, not having to track experience with pen and paper (which sounded like another nice touch, as much as some of us actually enjoy doing this!) makes me think this has been through a fair bit of playtesting, and believe it was mentioned in the video that you're looking at an hour or less for a game once you know it. Also, containing elements of two of the game systems so fondly thought of in terms of Infinity and X-Wing, can only be a good thing!
- The miniatures are nicely detailed and characterful. Again, independent detail and character on each one (which would lend itself to campaign) rather than just 'Henchman A mk2'. The scale and heroic proportion means you could probably swap in GW, Frostgrave etc. pretty easily if you wanted to.
- The art, styling, setting is quite distinctive. There is definitely a 'horror' vibe going on with the bestial/vampyric bad guys (Draguul? Not sure of spelling), and the 'virus' idea of the transmission brings to mind something like Blade 2. The different species all transforming to a Draguul equivalent is a nice touch. Will be interesting to see what the other factions and races are like, but it sounds like an awful lot of background already there from the 10 years or so the developers say they have been playing with the background setting. Personally I loved the retro-style fantasy artwork, but understand this won't be to everyone's taste.
- And of course, lovely terrain to use the miniatures with. I really hope there is some 'town + miniatures' level for the forthcoming KS, can see that being pretty popular if they do, even if you have to get out a second mortgage to pay for it!
There is a BoW video interview on Facebook today talking more about the world, some new terrain and how the pledge levels are going to work.
Freebies that are unlocked as stretch goals are for all backers, or High level backers. The high level backers are not linked to a pledge level, but the total that they spend *during the kickstarter*. That is the important thing to keep in mind. There will be a pledge manager to buy more after the campaign, but you must spend over £200 *during* the campaign to be eligible for the stretch goals.
It sounds like some of these goals will be new characters. The characters themselves will not be KS exclusives, but the figures will be. Another goal will be a large printed version of the map.
I am interested. Looking forward to how they bundle. I am tired of KS that give a 20% discount and deliver 18 months later. I can get that from retailers and not have to give them money a year ahead of time.
Sheck2 wrote: I am interested. Looking forward to how they bundle. I am tired of KS that give a 20% discount and deliver 18 months later. I can get that from retailers and not have to give them money a year ahead of time.
I find it's not all KS that I dislike for this. If it's an honest new business that needs a leg up (ooh, shall we call it something like ... a Kick Start!) then I have no problem. If it's an established company that is using the medium as more of a pre-order system then I agree with your sentiment.
For £8 you get the KS character, the Cartographer, and access to the add-ons.
The other end of the spectrum is £400, which is the £200 level, plus a Deep Cut Studios mat (4x4) and every unlocked stretch goal.
This last bit implies that not all of the stretch goals will be free to those spending over £200. I guess this will include the two other starter sets and any additional units and terrain that are unlocked during the campaign. It is limited to 200 people
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, so they followed up that reveal with the first 15 stretch goals and clarified things a bit more for the £400 level. This level gets one of every stretch goal, including the add-ons, plus an extra copy of every stretch goal marked as free to the £200+ level. I am on my phone so cannot repost the images, but the goals start unlocking at £35k and currently go up to £150k. In there we mostly have adobe, plus some extra dice, one free character, some PDF warbands and some posters. The add one include the next two starter sets (£40 each), a set of three buildings (£70) and 10 decks of different ability cards (£3 each).
I guess the ability decks are things you can learn as your force gains experience as each deck seems to be a skill area, such as Light, Dark, Spirit and regional.
These are the first 15 stretch goals that are available on the kickstarter going live tomorrow. As you can see some are marked as Venturer rewards and some are marked as Guildmaster.
Venturer rewards are for any one who pledges for the A Few Good Fellows but less than £200.
Guildmaster rewards are for any one who pledges for £200+ during the kickstarter (including The Battle Of Rustag pledge).
If you pledge for The 3rd Incursion or Scholars Of Nonsuch University then you receive 1 of every stretch goal unlock, as well as an additional copy of each Guildmaster reward (for pledging £200 or more).
When you compare the £200 to the £400 pledge you get all the additional stuff "free" with the higher pledge and a deep cut game mat.
If we assume the mat costs about £25 (4x4 mats are €25 on deepcut website, but let's transfer directly to pounds to keep it simple)) then for your extra £200 you get:
All the cards £15
Building set £70
2 extra starter sets £80
Deepcut game mat £25
Total = £190
You'll also get an extra copy of the KS dwarf (let's call that £8), but that still doesn't seem right.
Also, assuming all the starter sets come with a rulebook, you'll end up with 4 rulebooks and 4 copies of the KS model. Who needs that?
This pre-order KS has some of the strangest pricing going. Which is a shame as I really am digging the minis and theme.
edit: So just noticed you only get 2 rulebooks and 2 of the KS model at the £400 level.
Also there are 10 decks of cards, not 5, so that's £30.
£30 for some add on cards - are they gold plated? I would have expected the lot for less than £10 and expect they will be available on proper release as a bundle for about that price.
All miniatures are unpainted and either pre-assembled plastic or multipart resins.
Have they given any more detail on what exactly that means?
The terrain at the £200 level looks to save you about £10 off retail?
It is looking like skipping the £200 level and getting the terrain you want at a discount somewhere else might be the way to go, especially as most of the stretch goals so far aren't all that compelling.
Having said that, I'm not sure where you can buy 4Ground Mordanburg stuff at a discount...
The £40 for the starters I consider to be very reasonable. Holding off to general release will save you a few pennies, but I don't think it's worth quibbling about. The terrain on the other hand is not so much of a deal - nice if it's what you want, but easy to pass on.
There's a run through of the Alpha rules too:
I have to say I enjoyed what I saw. I can imagine this game scaling very well between a handful of models and thirty or so.
I only made it about 30 mins. in...but man I'm not feeling the rules at all, just from what I've seen. I still want to see the models in person and get some (if they're not resin).
I kind of like the models for the Druggies (or whatever their called) but not enough to spend $60+ now and wait to get them for more than a year. May look to pick them up when they hit retail (supposing they do; never a given with KS projects). The rule system is not a fit for me, either, and though I really like the game's artwork the stretch goals definitely aren't enough to sway me into backing.
I really wanted to like this, but I just found out the miniatures in the starter sets are PVC. £40 for 8 PVC minis and a rulebook does not sound like a good deal to me, so I'm out.
Yeah, I like the miniatures well enough, but they're asking for Hasslefree type money for (at best) CMON PVC level of quality. I don't see that being good value. There's nothing wrong with decent PVC minis but they're much better for mass battles than skirmish games, in terms of levels of detail and character.
I'm in for now for two starter sets. The opening two factions don't interest me and I like the two locked ones. I have doubts that those two will get unlocked though and I'll be pulling my pledge if they don't. The two new factions have been moved up the stretch goal list by quite a bit after the first day. Does this suggest the opening day didn't go as well as expected?
4Ground have had a rejig of their goals and rewards! After realising that the the terrain in the £200 bundle came to less than what they claimed, they added a well terrain piece. Everybody say hooray.
They've also acknowledged that the £400 pledge isn't actually that good of a deal over the £200 pledge (though they persist in claiming the gaming mat is worth £10 more than what you can actually buy one for) and so they've added some more freebies. Now you get.... wait for it.... a whole two extra henchmen for free! Assuming the other warbands are unlocked, that's two henchmen spread over four warbands. Or 1/2 of a hench-person per warband. Everybody say double hooray!
There's also a whole new pledge level. This one gets you two starting warbands for £70 instead of £80. Why that pledge level wasn't there to begin with is baffling, but now they've fixed it. Which is good. Everybody say a non-sarcastic hooray!
I like what I've seen of the game. I like the models. This kickstarter however is not a kickstarter. It's one of the most blatant "pre-order while we flog you some of our exsisting products" that I've seen.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Yeah, I like the miniatures well enough, but they're asking for Hasslefree type money for (at best) CMON PVC level of quality. I don't see that being good value. There's nothing wrong with decent PVC minis but they're much better for mass battles than skirmish games, in terms of levels of detail and character.
If it's CMON quality I agree. But if they can match this quality then I have no issues with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
endtransmission wrote: It is not two extra henchmen... it is two extra *sets* of henchmen, from whichever factions you want. So 10 extra figures
Well that would be a little better. Where did they say that, 'cause at the moment the graphic just says two henchmen reinforcements?
Manchu are you able to update the thread title please, to let people know the KS has started? Might help it along a little.
Shame it is such a long wait for release (over a year!), although I guess they have to scale up their production. And hopefully at least it has more chance of being accurate.
On the upside the poor value and long delay mean it's super easy to make the decision to skip this one and wait for the reviews, and for someone else to build up a community of players, etc.
It depends what quality though.. a lot of the CMoN stuff (Zombicide: BP etc.), Conan, The Walking Dead has excellent quality sculpts, with tons of defined detail, at the same level.
I think with the free UK P&P it's worth while going in on the £40 pledge level, outside of the UK I guess you at least have the bonus of the UK currency being at a pretty low level now.
Except for those trying to order from North Korea apparently, who are forbidden from pledging at all!
Maybe a bit twee but might also get a mug, think the art for this is really cool..
I have to disagree a bit there. I own Z:BP, Conan, etc. and while the quality is okay (for the price), they're nowhere near as good as a quality metal or HIPS type product. And definitely not for the bumped price in a product like this.
I can cope with that quality when I'm getting 200-300 miniatures for a steal, or using them exclusively in a board game, but they're not on the level of a proper wargaming miniature for the most part.
Now that being said, 4Ground is one of my favourite companies and they never do things by halves, so I'd like to be proven wrong and they've teamed up with the best PVC mini makers in the world or something...but I won't be buying in on faith for that type of material turning into quality minis.
This one looks interesting, but due to all the issues raised in the last few posts, it becomes rather easy to join the "Wait For Retail" brigade on this one.
I especially want to wait and see what the quality of the PVC figures turns out to be here too.
I do, of course, wish them the best of luck on this campaign!
They will definitely not be getting an interest free loan from me. Not at the "value" presented here, and with the unknown PVC quality. Plus, I agree with Manchu that the gimmicky items are a big red flag.
Shame too since I really liked what I saw up until now.
Alpharius wrote: This one looks interesting, but due to all the issues raised in the last few posts, it becomes rather easy to join the "Wait For Retail" brigade on this one.
Seems very wise. Also thanks for updating the thread title!
Taarnak wrote: They will definitely not be getting an interest free loan from me.
Well said.
I also really like 4ground scenics. But they appear to be out of their wheelhouse here. It's an ambitious project and I will no doubt support it at retail if everything works out.
I'll make one last post to sum up what I think they did wrong with this project then I'll stop posting here and stick to badgering them on the comments section. I'm going to stick with my pledge for now. I've spent more than £70 on a round of drinks on nights I have no memory of, so it's not a great amount in the grand scheme of things.
First off they set their expectations too high. The last stretch goal in their initial plan was the fourth faction unlocked at £150K. They've got this faction planned out, so they know they are going to be released whether they hit the target or not. But having goals that are a long way out of reach stops people pledging for them until they are unlocked, which slows down the amount pledged, which adds up to those goals being further out of reach.
I've no idea why they thought they'd get anywhere near £150K to begin with. Based on other games I would have expected this one, if run well, to top out at £75K, and probably less. Their whole kickstarter seems to have been planned out on an expected pledge total that, if they'd done their homework, they would have realised was completely unrealistic.
Secondly they didn't focus on the game. My first impressions were that this could be the successor to Mordheim. I watched the play video and it's long and not exciting, but I can see the game mechanics will make for a fun game. So where's the emphasis on how much fun and exciting the game will be? I'd have been hammering home hard that this is Mordheim with modern gameplay, this is what you've been waiting decades for. This is your campaign system, heroic development, random events, better gameplay than Mordheim, more sophisticated than Frostgrave, that you are going to be playing for years to come. But instead we get barely a squeak. On the kickstarter page talk of the actual game is buried way down the page. They screwed up by not putting the game first.
Next there's the background. The gameplay info being buried down the page - what do you think it's buried under? Boring, derivative, unexciting, generic fantasy fluff. Generic fantasy settings (especially ones that rip off other generic fantasy settings like this one has done with Dragon Age) are ten a penny. NOBODY CARES! And the name of the game itself, "The Legends of Fabled Realms", may well be one of the worst titles for a game I've had the misfortune of discovering. And if the fluff writing in the rulebook is on par with the blurbs next to the models on the kickstarter page then God help them, it's going to be truely bad.
Fourthly - They didn't focus on the game! (yeah it's the same as the second complaint, but for a different reason). A bunch of models, rulebook, cards, dice and tokens for £40 is perfectly reasonable. It gives you what you need to play a game at a price level that will encourage punters to take a stab. On the opening day, apart from the throw away lowest pledge level, this was the pledge level that the campaign should have been built around. The next pledge level was £200. You get two starters (good), a large rulebook (contains everything that's in the smaller rulebook and extra fluff pages of their awful setting, so meh) and a load of their pre-existing terrain. Why? Sell the game, not your pre-exisitng stock.
Then we jump to £400. At this level you get all the stuff at £200, plus everything that gets unlocked. Almost all of the unlocks are game specific (finally!). But to get this deal you have to spunk a load of money on their pre-existing terrain! They eventually introduced a £70 level for two starters sets, which was actually good. But if you are only interested in the game and not the terrain, your next pledge level was £400. Why the hell didn't they do a £200 level that was focused on the game without the terrain baggage? You're 4Ground and you are reputed for making terrain. But this kickstarter is for a game, not for you to offload stock. Focus on the game!
Fifth - unrealistic prices. I've done the breakdown already in this thread to show that the £200 and £400 are not good value for a product that you won't receive until the end of next year. I won't do it again but it's enough to say that the "£150" of terrain you get with those pledges is not a good deal (especially not when they had to add extra stuff at the last minute when they realised the "deal" they were offering was actually worth less than what they claimed). They still have the game mat showing as £35, which is unreasonable. The card expansions consist of seven cards each for £3. That means they want £30 for all 70 cards. You can pick up card expansion packs for other games that have over 100 cards in them for less than £10 - so again, unrealistic pricing. And then we add in that it's PVC, which a lot of people don't want to pay those prices for, which brings us to the next problem....
Six - it's PVC! There's nothing wrong in principle with making a game PVC. But you damn well make sure you are up front about it and if you don't want to scare potential backers off then you make sure you have an accurate representation of the product standard available. You only get one chance at first impressions and if you haven't got a representation of the product ready to wow us with then people who don't want PVC aren't going to look twice.
There's more that I could bang on about (the bloody useless picture stretch goals! Having essential game components like the additional cards as stretch goals. Mugs and pre-existing products being used to bump up the pledge total. MUGS!) but I shan't. 4Ground took a stab at something they've never done before and it honestly looks like they did no homework to prepare themselves.
edit: And a big number seven they just informed us of .... You know all that pre-existing terrain they want you to throw loads of money at - the same stuff you could order, now, from Wayland for cheaper. You won't receive that terrain until late next year when the game ships.
I was quite interested when Ive seen the minis at salute. I also raised the question there about PVC material and they said if enough interest was raised they may consider resin versions of the minis, which I may add that are amazing IRL.
Personaly I dont support KS and was thinking on cheking and getting some of these minis at next Salute but looking at the time frame on the KS looks like none of them will be ready and on sale by then which is a huge mistake if you ask me… 2 years of salute with only preview minis and no product for sale is not ideal believe me.
I was looking forward to seeing this, maybe getting a low entry starter, then if it was good, get the rest at retail...
However an end rrp of £45 for 8 pvc figures, a mini rulebook, some cards and a slack handful of dice. That's way too pricey for me. I like to buy 2 factions at start, then get 2 more later and use them to get friends interested using demos.
I would have gone in for just a rulebook if the figure prices were too high, but that seems pointless as I'd need cards which come with figures.
Guess this is a game I'll keep an eye on, rather than jump in.
Wow what a post Henry.. reason I come to Dakka is that you'll occasionally get a comment like that.
Agree with the sentiments, hopefully there will be some changes with the project and we'll end up with a better game for all (and one that can fulfil its undoubted potential)
I think there must have been a fair few comments about the PVC issue, check out the latest update below:
Resin Or PVC
One of the things we want to discuss with you all tomorrow is whether you would prefer all the miniatures (from starter sets/add-ons) to go from PVC plastic to resin. There are pros and cons for both and I want to go a little into the reason we originally chose PVC.
First resin;
Pros: If we do the whole kickstarter in resin it means that we can change the stretch goals again, adding in more miniatures, unlocked faster. We will also be able to potentially be delivered sooner as production does not need as much tooling etc. Resin is easier to convert and modify.
Cons: Some people are not keen on resin, resin miniatures are more prone to breakages and resin products are more expensive.
Then PVC;
Pros: can come pre-assembled get the product out of the box and go. Les prone to breakages than resin, less paint chipping than metal. Less expensive than resin meaning the products we sell at retail are less expensive than they would be, therefore more people getting into the game.
Cons: Some people are not keen on PVC, the product is not as easily converted, takes longer to deliver, longer gaps between stretch goals due to tooling costs etc.
The reason we originally went for PVC was due to how easy it would be able to get people into the game and how resistant the material is to damages. We also wanted a product that would be very easy to use out of the box (almost following the philosiphy our buildings have with being pre-painted). We really want feedback from all our backers so let us know what you think and if you can join us for the live discussion tomorrow.
The downside with this decision is we can only use one material, so PVC or Resin will be a permanent choice, so we want as much feedback as possible.
Comments below look like a mix between people wanting either. I suppose the problem is that there is arguments for both, and a lot based on what quality of PVC is being used..
Another update has just come out and based on the 55 replies so far, pvc is still winning, but a resin upgrade option has been added. Sadly the resin upgrade is £12 *per starter*.
The PVC figures are being produced by the same people that deal with Conan, Mythic Battles, the forthcoming Batman and the CMON games (amongst others).
We have just unlocked the fourth faction set and another small piece of terrain and accompanying scenario has been added to some of the levels for free
I don't understand why their prices are so high, especially the extra £12 for resin figures. I'd have thought that for £40 resin would have easily been covered already (it's only 8 figures). All this feels like is that they are charging retail prices for their kickstarter (and even at retail that price for 8 PVC miniatures and a book is a bit rich).
Either way, I've dropped my pledge for many of the same reasons Henry mentioned in his post. It's a shame too, I really wanted to like this game, I just can't justify the price.
Zethnar wrote: I don't understand why their prices are so high
Have you ever bought anything from 4ground?
Their buildings are lovely (honestly I think some of the best on the market) but they do not come cheap.
The price per mini is not 'cheap' per se, but the guys have got a good track record.. it's not that expensive compared to a lot of other wargaming stuff on the market, definitely think its worth a punt for a starter or two if not the terrain addons.
Alpharius wrote: They make great terrain - I don't think they've got a track record to speak of when it comes to miniatures.
Now, if the PVC is going to be from the same place that's already done all those listed up there...that's...good.
But, a lot of those 'good' PVC miniatures are the larger figures, the monsters.
There's not a lot of really good 'human sized' stuff in PVC - it still isn't comparing all that well with resin (real resin) or metal.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there mate! (well.. partly! )
Some of the best CMoN stuff, Conan, Walking Dead etc. doesn't have the mental detail level that you can make with resin or metal, but I think is good enough for purpose and still looks fine with a half decent paintjob.
Certainly the detail can be well enough defined that with anything other than a high-res super close up photo it's perfectly serviceable.
And you can do more with it if you have the will - check out some of AAN's work in the P&M sections.
And.. 4ground haven't done miniatures before but think they are pulling in sculptors from elsewhere (would need to check on that one as to who exactly, but the CADs themselves look exceptional)
Think their quality of products released so far in other areas has to stand for something - in the same way as someone like BMW wouldn't suddenly release a piece of rubber with holes in it if they started selling umbrellas (sorry that's a terrible example!)
I have to agree with one of the above posters about 4Ground having ideas of the KS hitting high and doing so quickly, as evident by the 1st lot of SG shown(dont get me started on the £15K needed for 2 free art prints lol) and the fact they plan on shipping in waves of 1000 with #3000+ being delivered after retail!
Re-guarding resin minis when i spoke to Cad at UKGE the resin was planned for retail after KS and being labelled a collector series with PVC for the KS minis and the game in general,
Now the joke of the resin vs PVC poll is over(open 14-15hrs and 54 votes out of 300) and they have added resin upgrades at £12 a starter, the only prob i have with mixing minis of the 2 types is the resin ones will be slightly bigger, they had the orange 3D prints for both PVC and resin side by side and theres a noticeable difference, i just hope they release all the minis in resin not just a select few like its been hinted at on the campaign!
The terrain will ship earlier if your willing to pay 2 lots of shipping, it was in the KS live video, the 1st half hr or so talks about PVC if your interested
I wonder how much of their £56K is made up of money from the terrain that inflates each pledge!?
Going for plastic for this was a bad idea as they'll never attain the numbers to really justify it (much like CROM) just due to it being a miniatures game which always pull in less the boardgames. In fact this is really mirroring CROM in tearms of how much it's being backed and what you get for $100 -- though the minis here are way nicer sculpts just to begin with.
They should have just had a hundred pound sweet spot with metal miniatures, pdf rulebook and stretch goals. Instead we get a lot of over inflated add ons to help pay for the PVC molds and wasted stretch goals like on art prints that no one wants.
That price point is really important as people really want a basic price that lets them play the game and go along on the stretch goal train. Just surprising to me how many companies don't understand that or are hoping to be the exception.
Just watching through the Q&A session from last night, so I'll update this when interesting bits come up.
- Digital sculpters are the same used by Monolith for Conan, Mythic battles and Batman.
- The material and quality is aiming to be the same as the giant snake in Conan, which is fantastic quality imo. Detail is exceptionally sharp and non-flexible. they specifically held up some of the lighter plastic Conan figures and went "Not this", but this:
- Resin was discounted as the primary manufacturing material of choice because during playtesting and the initial test casting there were a lot of breakages on weapons.
- They are looking at the hard plastic for weapons on figures as the samples from Mythic Battles are apparently very nice and as they are using the same factory, the experience is there.
- They are looking at reducing costs of the resin upgrades, especially for the £400 level where it would rack up very quickly indeed
- The manufacturing process will be overseen by someone that used to be the manufacturing exec for Hornby who looked after their overseas manufacturing
- The pdf options will probably have a KS print version available, so a book of all the scenarios from the terrain sets and the two warbands that were previously in the stretch goal list
- There is another A4 book coming in the KS that is more of a roleplay/background book. In the levels where you get two A4 rulebooks, it will be possible to swap out one of these for the new book instead for less duplication
- You can pay some extra postage to get the terrain early
- Beta rules will be made available to all the backers after the beta weekend as a pdf download/dropbox link
- The delivery date given is a very conservative date to make sure everything has time to be manufactured and go through the full QA process. They would rather be conservative and maybe deliver early, than promise much earlier in the year and fail to deliver on it, or have to cut corners.
- The QA process is going to be done by them in the UK. The factories will ship all the different components to 4Ground where they will QA all of the models and pieces as they go into the packets. Anything slightly miscast or bent is going to be rejected and not packed to maintain a solid quality product.
- Legacy system advancement:
- Heroes record wounds caused and spells cast. Each gives you one point to spend; you can then upgrade some of your stats/dice. To spend this, select a stat/dice to upgrade, roll a D6 and add the amount of points needed for the upgrade. You have to roll over a certain value to see if you actually learn the new skill... so there is no certainty that that experience will actually pay off. I kind of like the uncertainty that can bring...
- The starter sets include rules on designing your own characters, so you don't have to use their figures at all if you don't want to.
They seem to also have lots of plans for expansions, more warbands and different ways to play too... so... interesting.
They did investigate metal first, but thanks to our wonderful politicians, Brexit (amongst other worldwide issues) has caused the price of metal to skyrocket with no sign of it coming down.
Some other updates today.
The pledges that come with the £150 terrain packages will get a choice of two in the pledge manager; one is shown in the picture, the other is a pack of Daldorr terrain that will interlock with the £70k stretch goal buildings.
The gaming mat also has three choices: Grass, Snow or Barren earth.
There are also more timed unlocks to be added every few days. These are free to the relevant pledges, regardless of when you pledge. No idea what these are yet.
Oh. the update regarding upgrading the £200/£400/£800 pledge levels to all resin was in there too. This is capped at £12 per starter set, all the other figures that are not resin, but included in your level will be upgraded for free; so the £200 level that is £24, 400/800 is £48. As part of this they have confirmed that this includes the *10* extra reinforcements (2 sets of all the non-character figures from starter sets of your choice) given at 400/800 levels... so there is definitely a number against those extra troops now.
The wagon kit comes with 3 linked scenarios and some character cards for the special characters in the stories. No extra figures though.
Some rules bits from the comments:
4ground wrote:The way terrain interacts in a mechanical sense is mainly increasing your defence against attacks and slowing movement. You can climb buildings/cliffs doing a stamina test and moving 2" per face symbol (success, critical or super critical) if you fail to traverse the wall you stay where you were. If you test while going up a wall and roll only blanks you fall taking an attack with one red dice per 2" fallen.
4ground wrote:Regarding narrative dice, in the book it covers how you would use the white dice to be a 50/50 dice, 1 in 3 and 1 in 6 (also technically 5 in 6 for really easy things). They are only supposed to be used in narrative games as tournament players would not appreciate them (which means we do use it a lot)
This last one was in response to a question about people flipping over wagons, jumping across gaps or generally interacting with things in a more cinematic way.
I watched halfway through the demo game on BoW and have to say it seemed a pretty boring system. I cancelled my pledge and will have a look again at the finished product when it hits retail.
I like most of the big minis from the Conan game -- the snake is a particular standout. But the game is also very good, and the value is *incredibly* good overall, in terms of the number of miniatures at a given pledge level. That's why I backed Mythic Battles, having seen how good Conan was.
Edit: And the human-sized minis in Conan are not especially good. Not really any more than Bones quality on average, and definitely not up there with Blood Rage (though BR was a particular standout for PVC).
Eight minis for £40 is still boutique level pricing, not Conan style pricing.
Eight for 40 is more metal pricing to be honest. That's 5 quid a figure not even taking into account the other things in the starter. I feel like the Brexit excuses is pretty poor. It's not that it's caused metal prices to fluxuate too much it's more that they don't know what the trade contract with various countries will be so they don't know what the price will be (fair argument) so instead they chose the dumbest route possible for how they wanted to kickstart their game.
It also doesn't help that because of CMoN and Conan people expect really lots of minis from a kickstarter doing PVC. You're looking at like 30+ figures for 40 quid to meet expectations.
Conan was able to do such high volumes so they pretty much charged like 50 cents per figure. Of course to get enough backer interest to do that volume you have to change that amount in your KSer to attract enough people so it's kind of a catch-22.
I feel like it's just beating a dead horse at this point but a 2-player starterbox that was the only choice, like Mythic Battles, is really the only way you can go with plastic for a new game.
Edit:
And the human-sized minis in Conan are not especially good. Not really any more than Bones quality on average, and definitely not up there with Blood Rage (though BR was a particular standout for PVC).
I have to disagree here. Have lots of both and at the human size Conan are way better then bones. Better detail and easer to paint especially as the flexible bones has issues with paints and some primers.
Monkeysloth wrote: Eight for 40 is more metal pricing to be honest. That's 5 quid a figure not even taking into account the other things in the starter. I feel like the Brexit excuses is pretty poor.
The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs. I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?
Anyhoo. Today has seen another 4 decks of cards and three more buildings unlocked and added to the higher pledges for free
Monkeysloth wrote: Eight for 40 is more metal pricing to be honest. That's 5 quid a figure not even taking into account the other things in the starter. I feel like the Brexit excuses is pretty poor.
The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs. I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?
Honestly most KS miniature wargames end up with only small fan-bases and die in just a year or two after release so why wouldn't backers be basing their pledge value on the miniatures since they can at least be used in other games if the one being offered doesn't survive? For clarification, I am talking about miniature wargames here, not board games with miniatures (which tend to do rather well on KS and also attract a different audience).
The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs.
Crazy. Looking at the London Metal Exchange I can see that volatility in Tin but all the US based charts show it pretty stable. Would assume that comes from the fluctuating pound.
I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?
Not really sure. I know that the other stuff is there. Looking at the $100 level I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth but I did back Human Interface at $130 even though I'm more likely to play Fabled Realms then I am HI. But I did buy HI soly for the minis to be used in RPGs. Maybe's it's because Fabled Realm's starters are going to be roughly the same price at retail so I don't feel like they're giving me a deal? Human brains are strange things.
Because even with the inclusion of the book, the cards and the dice I don't think it's worth what they are charging, and the primary reason is the PVC miniatures. To be honest, that price point is expensive, but within what I'm willing to pay for the game, as long as the miniatures come in a material that I know is going to provide a quality sculpt, such as resin, metal or HIPS (the extra £12 for resin is what ultimately caused me to drop my pledge). PVC has a track record of looking below average and being difficult to work with.
Plus if you look at almost any boardgame release that is throwing 30 or so miniatures into a £40 or £50 pledge, then the extra material you get with the game would usually include a decent sized rulebook as well as other game components like cards, game tiles or boards, custom dice, player mats and a decent selection of tokens, chits and markers. There's generally enough 'other' material aside from the miniatures that discounting it from both products is, at least in my mind, fair when comparing value for money.
Like it or not, 4Grounds is charging premium prices for budget material and I'm not prepared to give them my money for that. I'm glad the kickstarter is doing okay though. Maybe once the game comes out I'll be able to find a starter kit at retail somewhere at a more reasonable price, as long as the sculpts don't turn out looking like gak that is. That comparison pic earlier in the thread doesn't look too promising though.
We had a great live stream last night, it went really well and it was great to talk to all of you that attended. We doing another live stream tomorrow and the Kickstarter page should be updated soon.
The answers to some of the questions;
£400 pledge and resin upgrades; you can upgrade all miniatures in your pledge to resin for £48, this includes all additional miniatures from the Kickstarter including the additional 10 reinforcements.
Will we be continuing to support the resin range after Kickstarter? Yes we will, in fact some releases due to size may be only released in resin (High Dragons etc.).
Will there be large beasts eventually including Dragons? I spoiled this one above, but yes and eventually Manticores, Griffons, Chimera etc.
Can you play the game co-op? Some of the narrative scenarios will be co-op scenarios.
Will we be doing a campaign supplement? Yes and the campaign supplement will be exchangeable for A4 rulebooks in those pledges.
Can I exchange my £150 worth of terrain in The Battle Of Rustag, The 3rd Incursion and The Schoalrs Of Nonsuch University for Daldorr terrain? Yes we will do a pack that you pick from on your pledge manager as either Daldorr or Mordanburg.
Can I pick the Deep Cut Studio mat? Once again you will be able to pick, between 3 the grass, the snow and the barren ones.
Do you get Adam in the World of Fabled Realms add-on? One free Adam with every set, but be aware he is 1/72nd scale.
Are you doing any more timed unlocks and how do they work? Timed unlocks are done to keep adding interesting items during the kickstarter, we will be releasing items every few days that are added into different pledge levels. These items will be added to any backers pledges, not just those that pledge before that date.
Here is some more concept work so its not just a wall of text again.
Update #15
Jul 4 2017
Mordanburg State Guard warriors on the horizon Hi All,
Here are some very early work in progress images of the additional Mordanburg State Guard miniatures in the starter set. This is Pytor, Sara and Steppan. These models are all part of your starter set and are also available as henchmen reinforcements.
We got very excited and wanted to share these with you as soon as possible.
Update #16
Jul 4 2017
Tokens in the Fabled Realms
Next update for box contents.
The tokens are going to be made from card stock. This is so we can print some of the amazing artwork we have onto the card and make use of printing them double sided to get the most use out of the tokens.
Wednesday we will do an update to show you how to create an ability card deck.
Update #17
Jul 4 2017
Wow, 3 stretch goals!
Well I went out to the hospital and came back and we had unlocked 3 stretch goals!
We have unlocked 4 card decks, these are:
Wave Of Fear
Dark magic like Wave Of Fear, causes damage to an opponents morale. You can also use spells like Cloak Of Darkness to make it less likely your opponent will hit you.
Mind Shard
Spirit magic allows you to attack your opponents mind with Mind Shard or block their abilities with Spiritual Shield. When combined Dark and Spirit magic allow you to cast terrible spells like Strip Soul.
Numerous Foes
Florikson is a fighting style devoted to fighting multiple opponents as such it has ability cards like Numerous Foes that generate combat dice based on the number of enemies they face and Redirection that allows them to transfer combat dice into defence.
Ferocity
Vargan is a fighting style based on the training of the fighting pits of Mordanburg. One of its major tenets is that you should always put on a good show, this is shown best with cards like Ferocity which make you strike last but your attack is boosted when you hit back. Other abilities like Hateful Blows cause you to gain attacks if you have taken wounds already, a perfect combination with Ferocity.
Finally we have the buildings of Broggenbridge;
These buildings are part of the settled region of Daldorr. Built into the ruins they are almost fort like in their construction allowing no enemies to enter without a fight. The keying on the walls allow them to be integrated into the current range of Daldorr ruins. This is an add-on that can be added to pledges, but comes as part of The 3rd Incursion pledge and The Scholars Of Nonsuch Univesity pledge levels.
We have some more surprises for you tomorrow, with Sell Sword work in progress miniatures and another timed unlock.
This morning another 2 prints have been unlocked and added to all the goals.
In addition to that, they have also added their next timed unlock. Some of the pledge levels are now getting a guard tower that goes with the ruins, added for free. It is also being added as a £40 extra for anyone else who wants one
Time for another big update, even though some of you have given up on it, I'm still looking forward to this coming through
Since we last peered through the window at this world, things have moved on quite a bit, with lots of extra value being added to the higher level pledges
- There will be a Campaign supplement, which is the same size as the A4 rulebook. It can be added on, or at the higher levels, one of the main rulebooks can be swapped out for this new one.
- The Mordanburg Stage Guard Forever Vigilant set (two KS exclusive guards, their cards and a scenario) have been unlocked and added to all pledges above £200, or as an add-on. The 400/800 levels get two sets of these figures
- The Eightfold path have two Warders of the Path unlocked and added to some levels, or as an add-on.
- Lots more skills and spells have been added in... discounted decks will be added towards the end, for the lower levels that want them all.
- More prints have been added to levels
- Two wayshrines have been added to a lot of the levels, or as an add-on for anyone that wants more. These include a new scenario as well
- A mill has been added to the higher levels, or as an add-on
- The Fellendorf Militia pdf faction has been added to all levels over £200, along with 3 sprues of Gripping Beast Hirdmen and Dark Age Warriors, giving you 8 heroes and 10 henchmen. this warband seems interesting. You can only buy heroes for this warband. For each hero that joins the battle, you roll a D3... the total of these rolls tells you how many henchmen your warband currently has available. You can bring them all to the fight and seriously outnumber/overpower the enemy, but if you do you get nothing between games as you took all of your henchmen away from the farming/mining activities that would pay you... so this is a balancing act.
- the Beast of Balvenburg has been unlocked and added to some pledges, or as an add-on
- Hasty defences have been added to a lot of the levels. This is a set of extra bits to build barricades, block doors/windows on your buildings or link wooden buildings to the ruins
- The map has also been unlocked, but not added to the pledge images yet.
The overview of the £400 level is currently :
This is currently worth (at KS prices) over £700 and will be getting at least 4 more daily unlocks, even if no extra goals are unlocked (which is unlikely).
They have also been talking about an RPG that uses the figures and some of the core rules with enhanced character/unit cards that may or may not be coming during the campaign.
Next goal is Sell Sword crossbows
Automatically Appended Next Post: Today's unlock is another piece of terrain. This time it is a whiccan hut
Albino Squirrel wrote: Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.
Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.
While I'm not buying into the KS, I'm more excited about seeing the terrain being released - and hope that leads to even more. Their Fantasy range is beautiful but has been quite limited...very happy to see some unique stuff. Love the windmill, loooove the Beckenbridge? Whatever stuff.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.
Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.
Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.
They just aren't competitively priced. 8 pvc models for 40 pounds is just super poor value. Who cares about signed art prints? Commemorative coins? Mugs? Shirts? Rules add ins that feel like they should have been there from the beginning?
Why on Earth are they paying the tooling and shipping (and waiting) time from China for a game that has 8-10 models per side? PVC is wrong for this game on every level. A metal casting shop could deliver these in a fraction of the time it will take to get them from China. Like, they could be shipping in four months. None of their choices make any sense.
This campaign by far has been the biggest KS disappointment of the year. I was very excited. I won't even get it at retail with PVC figures.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.
Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.
Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.
I disagree. Not about them raising less money than expected, but about what impact it will have. Though they did reduce their stretch goals to more realistic targets, I doubt it will have much affect on their capability to realise the project in the time scale they have set. Most of the stretch goals are niff-naff stuff (prints and cards for the game) that won't take much effort to produce. The cards in particular are a core part of the game - they are getting done up whether the stretch goals are reached or not, so really they aren't actually stretch goals, more like bait.
The heart of their stretch goals and timed unlocks are the terrain. 4ground does this very well and, again, I'm inclined to believe that most of it has been designed and costed that it was going to be released regardless of the kickstarter. The logistics of sending out all that product may bite them if they are unprepared but I have no doubts that they can create it on time and budget.
Apart from the cards (that I truely believe are a ridiculous set of stretch goals), there has been little additional content that is game play related. Unless the kickstarter was a complete bust, the four initial factions were always going to be released, so we can discount them. At the moment they are sitting on a single extra unit for each of the factions unlocked. That is not exactly the most taxing of extras for any company to get their heads around.
While the more expensive pledges are finally becoming value for money (provided you want all the terrain), one of the problems they still haven't managed to address is that the game itself is still not popular. Right now they're at £80k which is good, but only 350 backers, that's not good. That means they have a low'ish number of backers pledging a decent amount each, but that seems to be only thanks to the added value of the £400 pledge coming from 4ground's terrain.
Compare to other games. "The Drowned Earth" got £45k from 500 backers, but that was almost entirely game related material from what is effectively a one man band operation. "Maelstrom's Edge" got $70k from 800 backers, so a lot more popular at concept than Fabled Realms appears right now, but aside from Dakka and a small presence at Salute I've neither seen nor heard of the game anywhere else, so having an even smaller base should be worrying. And again, that success came from the value of the game. Guildball stands as an example that started with strong support and got better. Over £90k from nearly 900 backers - all based upon the strength of the game, not expensive terrain add-ons. That's the level of support that will assure you of a game that survives past its first year.
There's a good chance that on general release this game will find its home and be successful, but in the last few days of the campaign what they really need to have a greater chance of the game growing are more people pledging at the lower levels. Focus on the game, not the terrain.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.
Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.
Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.
I highly doubt it, most mark ups from manufactures are above the 50% level. They can easily take a 50% off hit on the stuff they make in house if not more. The vast majority of what is on offer here $ wise are what they make or can make in house. Moreover they know exactly what their costs are on those products. I think the risk here is extremely overblown. You might not like what they have to offer. I personally am not sold on the mechanics of the game so I am not backing myself. But worrying about "red flags" of the stretch goal readjustment is just in my opinion super silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... and the post above mine just said what I said 10000x better
Eh, suit yourself. I think it's super silly not to be worried, as I've seen plenty of projects that promise more and more as they desperately try to bring in the money they need to realize their project. They goal listed on kickstarter may not be enough for them to deliver the project if they were expecting to raise a lot more.
So they finally convinced me to pull my pledge. It's a shame.
When they said they'd do a card bundle I expected to pay a tenner. Fifteen at a push. £20 would have been a lot to ask but I could see it from a business point of view.
£40? And it doesn't even have ALL the cards in it? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
I definitely think that the cards are a bit overpriced but for Guildball's season 3 plot cards and tokens it is $15 and that is only 12 plots cards and 4 tokens. So maybe it is not that much out of line or can guildball charge that because they are the new hotness?
It's a diminishing returns thing.
For example, a game that charges £8 a model where you need fifty or so to make an army isn't viable in large numbers - the outlay is too much. So the large scale army needs to cut costs down to £3-£4 a model to get the player base.
A game which has ten or so models a side can charge £8 a model as the overall outlay is less.
It seems unfair that the game which requires more should have to sell its product for less, but the customer only sees two comparable games, one of which costs a fraction of the other, so return on investment for the more expensive game is diminished the more expensive the individual models are.
It's why FFG can get away with charging £12 for a basic X-Wing model that costs them pennies to produce.
Steamforged charges roughly £10 for both the plots deck and the players deck each. These are all you need to purchase each season to keep your game current. One contains 12 cards, the other over 100. One contains just shy of ten times the number of cards as the other yet they cost a similar amount. The reason being that both have to be priced to meet apparent value for the customer.
4Ground have not done this, especially considering that they are trying to convince gamers to invest in their brand new, untested, unfinished game system. As I said above, £20 for the lot would have been a push but understandable. £40 goes above what I accept to pay in return for the product - especially as it doesn't even include all the cards.
There have been a ton of updates that we haven't had listed here, but this is the latest one - Sellsword Goblins
Pretty cool - like the less 'Gremlins' type Goblins, these look like they could at least be half-competent and not be comically killed by someone with a stick or a microwave.
There was just an entire weekend of new gameplay content on BoW (Shill alert! Shill alert!) which ended with an announcement that the pledge manager was being re-opened for a short time to allow for more late-backers. Previously when they were allowing late-backers I had emailed them asking if the late pledges included the stretch goals from the campaign. They replied no, late-pledgers would not get the stretch goals. Kind of made my decision for me, since I was only after the models and extras as the game seems horribly dull to me.
My instincts tell me that the re-opening of the pledge manager is a bit of a red flag....not sure why but it feels like something's wrong. This past weekend it's like they tried to re-start the hype and get more folks to spend money for a project that is still far from release. The KS project limped out of the gates and caused them to shift tact and start offering more stretch goal stuff. I know they are a legit company that's been around a while, but they've never used KS nor produced miniatures or a game before this project.
Shame, as I'd jump in with stretch goals probably, even though I'm not a resin fan. I think the aesthetic of this game is excellent (admittedly not sold on the game mechanics myself).
BigDaddio wrote: There was just an entire weekend of new gameplay content on BoW (Shill alert! Shill alert!) which ended with an announcement that the pledge manager was being re-opened for a short time to allow for more late-backers. Previously when they were allowing late-backers I had emailed them asking if the late pledges included the stretch goals from the campaign. They replied no, late-pledgers would not get the stretch goals. Kind of made my decision for me, since I was only after the models and extras as the game seems horribly dull to me.
My instincts tell me that the re-opening of the pledge manager is a bit of a red flag....not sure why but it feels like something's wrong. This past weekend it's like they tried to re-start the hype and get more folks to spend money for a project that is still far from release. The KS project limped out of the gates and caused them to shift tact and start offering more stretch goal stuff. I know they are a legit company that's been around a while, but they've never used KS nor produced miniatures or a game before this project.
If they're going ahead with a massive advertising push (which the thing on BoW was, notwithstanding that some of it was pretty entertaining) it makes sense to open up the pledge manager - there is no point in going through all of that effort to plug the game and then potential customers having to wait 3 months to be able to spend any money. So I think that by itself can't be used as an indication that they are going through rocky waters.
Yes this game is looking like it's not cheap, but that shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who has bought their terrain over the years (as lovely as it is).
I think you're right - although this game will have given publicity to the building ranges, it probably would have cost a fair bit to design and make as well.
I've got the basic KS on order so am willing to give it a go - been after something like Mordheim for a while, and I quite like the concept of the universe with the different races.
Some quite nice and characterful sculpts as well (hopefully the casting medium for the production minis will be up to the job!)
I will make sure I feed back how the miniatures and game turn out!
Will be playing with a bunch of people that know Mordheim very well so will hopefully find out how up to scratch the game and miniatures are quite quickly.
Am kind of hoping it's not too amazing as just thinking how much a tables-worth of the 4Ground terrain will cost..
I think this is essentially the wargames equivalent of the Fantasy Heartbreaker. Charming in parts, innovative in parts, but overall, not distinctive enough, not offering enough of a unique selling point.
From time to time I go back into my "saved" KS projects and check on the progress of some I didn't back, to see how they are doing. I just checked out the last few updates on this project and apparently they are 3D printing ALL the miniatures that will be sent to backers, rather than casting in plastic or otherwise. I find that very interesting. Has anyone ever heard of a company doing this on such a large scale?
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