CMON Limited Announces A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game
Mar 14, 2017
CMON Limited is proud to announce its exciting new project A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game based on the beloved novels by George R.R. Martin in cooperation with Dark Sword Miniatures, Inc. Heading to Kickstarter in Q3 of 2017 and retail stores in 2018, this new miniatures wargame allows fans to enter the world of the novels and control units of troops and heroes with easy to pick-up rules and fast-paced, brutal gameplay.
CMON Limited Announces A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game
Since the A Song of Ice and Fire series was first published in 1996, fans from around the world have fallen in love with the amazing lands of Westeros and Essos and the iconic characters that inhabit them. CMON’s new tabletop miniatures game brings the conflicts set in those lands and the beloved characters to life with gorgeous, pre-assembled miniatures that make picking up and playing the game a breeze right out of the box. Gameplay is strategic yet easy to learn, meaning players will get to the battles as quickly as possible.
Jim Ludwig, Founder and President of Dark Sword Miniatures, Inc., commented on the partnership leading to the creation of the game: “I have been a big fan of what CMON has done in the tabletop miniatures space since 2004. Their expertise in plastic miniature production and their extensive body of work with both board games and tabletop miniatures games, that not only look amazing but are actually fun to play, made it an easy choice on who to collaborate with on this project.”
CMON’s Founder and President, David Doust, explains, “CMON's relationship with Dark Sword dates back over a decade, and we have contemplated a more serious collaboration for a very long time. This project allows us to dig deep into George R.R. Martin's mind and recreate the iconic battles from his award-winning novels on the tabletop.”
The A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game lets players take control of their favorite Houses from the novels, represented by trays of high-quality, pre-assembled miniatures, and lead them into battle against their opponents. Players can recreate their favorite moments from the series or create their own stories. What if the Red Wedding never happened, and Robb Stark assaulted King’s Landing? Now fans can find out!
Battles can range from large-scale wars with hundreds of miniatures, to simple skirmishes between a few units without complicating the elegantly designed rules. The game features several unique systems, including alternating activations that keep the players engaged; a Rank System that changes a unit’s capabilities as the battle rages on; a Tactics System that provides strategic powers fueled by a finite resource each round; and, most importantly, the iconic Heroes, such as Robb Stark and Jaime Lannister, that can change the course of war both on and off the battlefield.
CMON will have even more information before the launch of the A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game: Stark vs Lannister Starter Set on Kickstarter later in 2017, with a healthy lineup of regular retail releases and support to follow
I like that it's based on the books rather than the show and... that's it. 'A Tactics System that provides strategic powers' is phrase that makes me cringe a bit, for a couple of reasons; and 'a healthy lineup of regular retail releases' makes me think it's the same old trick of goading gamers into buying a crapload of overpriced minis ("See, buying this mini gives you the rule that instantly makes the unit fight twice as well. It's dead tactical and fluffy...") who'll then moan about 'dead games' and 'unusable armies' when the releases trickle to a halt.
Will definitely be grabbing this one. I was disappointed when FFG abandoned the Westeros battle game so glad someone else is giving Song of Ice and Fire war gaming a go.
So given there's only two series to go, one starting in July, what's the betting they might've left it a bit late?
This is based on the novels rather than the TV show so about another 20 years b fire that's finished.
Add in the fact the minis look to be based on the Dark Sword ones (note the logo on the bottom right) who have been doing ASOIAF minis for donkeys years.
Wow, this is finally happening? Last I knew, it got canned because CMoN asked what happened in the event of a tragedy and GRRM passed on. Good to hear you GoT fans are finally getting it. It's been in pre-agreement stages for at least two years now.
Looks like another company (along with FFG and Runewars) looking to step into the void of mass-ranked fantasy battle left by GW's WFB.
Well certainly there is no bigger franchise in fantasy, other than perhaps LoTR, and certainly nothing that is more popular at the time of writing. And CMoN will have the chops to back this with a big release and a high professional standard. Certainly, some of those renders look pretty nice.
If they can pull in the board game crowd with this (and one-piece sculpts would be one way to do this) could be looking at something challenging Kingdom Death for total $ pledged?
I haven't been overly impressed with anything I've seen Dark Sword put out...and I don't know if I've any real interest in a board game-quality miniatures game. I'll keep an eye on the KS for kicks though.
People are already doing tremendous GoT projects with massive armies...there's no shortage of fake-medieval miniatures out there.
Sculpts there look okay. Not great, but okay. Infinitely more intriguing than Rune Wars, however one is far fantasy and one is light fantasy so there's room for both if they're lucky.
Visually, GOT is fairly meh unless you're a keen historical wargamer with fantasy leanings. Not sure how it wins out over more fantastical wargames with more variety of units.
The pics in the slides look very nice but the detail in the actual minis looks a little soft, especially the firewall. Definitely an intriguing game though.
Cool, and it will do well but never again with CMoN. So many games are late by a long shot, and they just move on to the next never giving updates leaving backs in the dark.
GoT stepping up to fill the Rank and File wargame is probably the smartest move a company has made to take WHFB's spot. This will get fans of the game interested, at least for a while, and give them a foothold on the table-top.
Hopefully the actual models look a little bit better.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The sculpts are gonna have to be great to convince people who already use pther rules sets and the fanrastic Perry historical minis to move to it...
If the plastics are as good as the Dark Sword metals they already put out for the Song of Ice and Fire line, then you shouldn't be disapointed.
The small trailer video had me confused with a giant troll on the table, but looks like they were just prototyping the game using Blood Rage model proxies.
Uses cards for model stats and abilities and Eric Lang was in the video giving some confidence for the rules.
The round bases in edged movement trays is a good start. The WoTR game from G-Dub used that style and it worked really well for securing the figs, using in skirmish and securing them while shifting the unit.
Carnikang wrote: GoT stepping up to fill the Rank and File wargame is probably the smartest move a company has made to take WHFB's spot. This will get fans of the game interested, at least for a while, and give them a foothold on the table-top.
Hopefully the actual models look a little bit better.
A good idea yes, but its not filling any spot. There is plenty of rank and file out there, and this certainty isn't taking up the fantasy rank and file slot/filing in some hole
Pacific wrote: It might depend on what part of the world you live re. the hype?
Here in the UK GoT is pretty massive, just looked it up and 3.8 million watched the final episode (guess similar in the US too?)
There arguably isn't a bigger franchise, at least here, as far as fantasy is concerned.
Game of thrones isn't really 'about' the battles though. It's a character driven show. For the most part, both the books and the shows sidestep showing any actual war scenes.
I think a tight character driven skirmish game would have made a lot more sense in the context of GoT (think LOTR vs WOTR).
I concur .. never read the books and only saw the show, but to me GOT doesn't "feel" like war game material. Maybe something like humans vs white walkers/undead might have been a better theme to start with.
Necros wrote: I concur .. never read the books and only saw the show, but to me GOT doesn't "feel" like war game material. Maybe something like humans vs white walkers/undead might have been a better theme to start with.
There's lots of scope in the world for skirmishes between factions, within factions, and in the greater world.
Core game: Warbands of the Seven Kingdoms
Expansion 1: Warbands of Essos
Expansion 2: Wildling warbands, White Walker Warbands, etc..
Necros wrote: I concur .. never read the books and only saw the show, but to me GOT doesn't "feel" like war game material. Maybe something like humans vs white walkers/undead might have been a better theme to start with.
That`s because they cut out most of the battles out of the series (`cause they`re expensive) and replace them with unnecessary love stories (which weren`t in the books, but they`re a cheap filler to shoot). Yeah, I still like the show, but this annoys me a lot
Even the battles they keep they shrink them into an oblivion (the battle between wilderlings and the watch by the wall)
Necros wrote: I concur .. never read the books and only saw the show, but to me GOT doesn't "feel" like war game material. Maybe something like humans vs white walkers/undead might have been a better theme to start with.
That`s because they cut out most of the battles out of the series (`cause they`re expensive) and replace them with unnecessary love stories (which weren`t in the books, but they`re a cheap filler to shoot). Yeah, I still like the show, but this annoys me a lot
Even the battles they keep they shrink them into an oblivion (the battle between wilderlings and the watch by the wall)
I have read all of them, and I recall a fair bit more battles and fights, than you do, apparently - Greyjoy conquering Tyrell islands for example, Jon Connington sieging a castle, ect.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: I have read all of them, and I recall a fair bit more battles and fights, than you do, apparently - Greyjoy conquering Tyrell islands for example, Jon Connington sieging a castle, ect.
Stannis' campaign to win the loyalty of some of the Northern Lords.
Didn't Martin write the books as something that could never be produced on film, because it would require so much money and level of production?
Even if they are cutting out some battles, the show is a hundred times more impressive in terms of scope and production value than anything I saw growing up through the 80s and 90s
Really looking forward to this - if the rules turn out badly, or interest in playing it goes away after a couple of years, I'll at least have a load of minis left to use for KoW or other games, whether they're round based or ranked!
Pre-assembled hard plastic sounds great to me, more time for painting.
So far it's reminding me a lot of GW's War of the Ring, which is definitely a good thing.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Oh poor, poor Runewars. Sorry FFG. I think this is going to eat your lunch.
You're not sorry, and neither is your wallet!
Whatever happened to Wrath of Kings? With CMON's boardgames, CMON releases everything at once then stops releasing new material. I see CMON has a timeline for releasing product to retail, though.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Oh poor, poor Runewars. Sorry FFG. I think this is going to eat your lunch.
You're not sorry, and neither is your wallet!
Whatever happened to Wrath of Kings? With CMON's boardgames, CMON releases everything at once then stops releasing new material. I see CMON has a timeline for releasing product to retail, though.
According to my local store owner, they are also helping shops recover from Kickstarter sales. I will have the option of placing my KS pledge through the store, and not have to pay shipping.
That is a huge change, and very LGS friendly.
The books do have a lot more battles than the TV show, nice range from small skirmishes up to sieges so there is a lot of material to pull some interesting scenarios from.
Hopefully the licence also covers Robert's Rebellion as most troop types would be the same, you would just need a box set containing the relevant heroes and a scenario book.
Looking at the timeline they are releasing the first Starter in March 2018 (presumably the already shown Stark vs Lannister) and a second starter in June, so will be interesting to see what forces they go for there. With the FFG Westeros battles game were a lot of requests for a Night Watch vs White Walkers or Wildling set but I wouldn't be surprised if they were saving that and go for Baratheon vs Greyjoy instead (would also allow scenarios set during the Greyjoy Rebellion).
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Oh poor, poor Runewars. Sorry FFG. I think this is going to eat your lunch.
You're not sorry, and neither is your wallet!
Whatever happened to Wrath of Kings? With CMON's boardgames, CMON releases everything at once then stops releasing new material. I see CMON has a timeline for releasing product to retail, though.
According to my local store owner, they are also helping shops recover from Kickstarter sales. I will have the option of placing my KS pledge through the store, and not have to pay shipping.
That is a huge change, and very LGS friendly.
That's a really nice idea, wonder if it will also be available over in the UK or just American stores?
Something for CMoN to do it as it sounds as if it would eat into their profit margins.
Necros wrote: I concur .. never read the books and only saw the show, but to me GOT doesn't "feel" like war game material. Maybe something like humans vs white walkers/undead might have been a better theme to start with.
GoT is sort of a fantasy re-imagining of the War of the Roses, York=Stark, Lancaster=Lannister, etc. so there are plenty of pitched battles that are fought the books and tv show just focus more on the characters and political intrigue than the front lines of the battles. Which is understandable because while the characters certainly do their share of fighting they're not often in the thick of the fighting in pitched battles.
I like the look of the game, it will be interesting to see what all is included in the KS. The WOTR style unit trays make me happy and hopefully the rules are fun. I wonder what size the bases are, it would be nice if I could swap out or include other minis in the trays.
Carnikang wrote: GoT stepping up to fill the Rank and File wargame is probably the smartest move a company has made to take WHFB's spot. This will get fans of the game interested, at least for a while, and give them a foothold on the table-top.
Hopefully the actual models look a little bit better.
We're in the early stages right of hope right now. GoT is low fantasy for the most part. Outside of Dani's dragons and stuff north of the wall, it's mainly medieval armies. Have to see how things are when more details come out. While there is a lot material to plumb for the game, question is how much material can be plumbed profitably?
Carnikang wrote: GoT stepping up to fill the Rank and File wargame is probably the smartest move a company has made to take WHFB's spot. This will get fans of the game interested, at least for a while, and give them a foothold on the table-top.
Hopefully the actual models look a little bit better.
We're in the early stages right of hope right now. GoT is low fantasy for the most part. Outside of Dani's dragons and stuff north of the wall, it's mainly medieval armies. Have to see how things are when more details come out. While there is a lot material to plumb for the game, question is how much material can be plumbed profitably?
I don't doubt they'd take liberties if other "armies" suddenly wanted big gribblies. Martin might never pursue it outright... but The Kraken of Greyjoy/The Iron Isles, etc... could easily go Lovecraft and... ahem... fish something up.
I kind of wish that the HBO show was the source... Only because they armies are pretty distinct as far as look/theme. I want to see a big Giant... To smash the other little mens...
Hmm, I'd need to see some painted stuff before I bought any.
The HBO stuff kinda killed my love for the setting as I'm a book only fan and...yeah, tough to keep enjoying it when the more popular part is so vulgar and you have no idea about it.
The Blood Rage Vikings are excellent (outside of bendy weapons) and I would get minis of that quality for ASOIAF (no, it's not "GoT", stupid tv). Stuff like shrinkage is accounted for, the lack of posing options is made up by excellent layering of equipment and clothing that multi part kits can't do and Remy Tremblay is simply one of the best sculptors for humans in that scale. The shields are incredible. Clean up sucks, but mold lines are fainter than many i've seen after people cleaned their HIPS stuff.
I'd prefer a skirmish rule set with only low key character abilities, though. Bloody Mummers vs BwoB or raiders vs Nightwatch, Lannister foragers vs a band of deserters and Broken, things like that*. Or an all-out Warmaster-like with thousands of heavy horse and M@As and levvies in small scale foghting over the Riverlands or ending the Greyjoy Rebellion, but CMON doesn't have the equipment to make stuff that small, I guess...and an ant-sized KS exclusive model of Arya as Cat probably wouldn't add as much backer money
*I thought about LotR rules, but it turns out they're not that easy to get as one would think and I know only a bit about them from WD battle reports, so I don't want to shell out ebay money. Or use SAGA instead?
So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly? I mean, a company that can afford the Song of Ice & Fire license surely can't be so cash-strapped that they can't make the game itself after splurging on the rights?
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly? I mean, a company that can afford the Song of Ice & Fire license surely can't be so cash-strapped that they can't make the game itself after splurging on the rights?
KS is sometimes used more as a way to advertise and get word out rather than raise money. It also helps with gauging interest and avoid making too much product and end up with unsold stock.
Smokestack wrote: I kind of wish that the HBO show was the source... Only because they armies are pretty distinct as far as look/theme. I want to see a big Giant... To smash the other little mens...
Agreed
This one being just Stark's vs Lanisters means I will pass and see if they make anything interesting later - Dani, Dragons, Unsullied, Dothraki, Giants
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly? I mean, a company that can afford the Song of Ice & Fire license surely can't be so cash-strapped that they can't make the game itself after splurging on the rights?
KS is sometimes used more as a way to advertise and get word out rather than raise money. It also helps with gauging interest and avoid making too much product and end up with unsold stock.
Crowdfunding is a really good way to promote a game, as people will promote it for you if they're interested so their mates come and pledge too. It doesn't preclude a normal retail release down the line, anyway.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly? I mean, a company that can afford the Song of Ice & Fire license surely can't be so cash-strapped that they can't make the game itself after splurging on the rights?
KS is sometimes used more as a way to advertise and get word out rather than raise money. It also helps with gauging interest and avoid making too much product and end up with unsold stock.
Crowdfunding is a really good way to promote a game, as people will promote it for you if they're interested so their mates come and pledge too. It doesn't preclude a normal retail release down the line, anyway.
From the above comments it appears that CMON will be releasing a retail exclusive second starter set three months after release of the kickstarter funded box so they are making an effort to support retail stores whilst securing the promotion that only Kickstarter campaigns seem to be able to provide (outside of Games Workshop and the Star Wars licence).
I think this is great. You'll note that the retail pledge cuts out the distributor, giving the retailers the 40% discount distributors would normally receive and expect. Distributors, btw, "cherry pick" what they will carry, which means someone *else* is choosing which games are going to market, not you.
Here's Reaper MIniature's State of the Industry from 2012 for their opinion about how the distributor-retailer model isn't working for them, and, implicitly, one of the reasons why they used KS for their plastic Bones line. (ObPlug: Another one coming this year!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7dj2IcgH3w
Who knows -- pretty obviously, an experienced KS company has the shipping logistics that your typical retail game company doesn't, and CMON has many well-known titles. Perhaps we'll finally see a game company that can become a distributor of its own games, and perhaps others (y'know, like how CMON sold other company's miniatures beforeKS).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stolen from BGG:
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly? I mean, a company that can afford the Song of Ice & Fire license surely can't be so cash-strapped that they can't make the game itself after splurging on the rights?
Dark Sword Miniatures Has the Licence not CMON, that is why they are teamed up. Dark Sword make great Minis, and CMON Publishes games
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do they need a Kickstarter for this exactly?
So... how many base game units will they sell, exactly?
I can't find estimates publishers use to determine retail demand, but, at least with KS, you know how many units your backers want. Although -- or because -- miniatures wargaming that's boardgamer-friendly is a new area for CMON (and much of the industry if you don't include Clix and other CMG's) they'll want some numbers for a starting point for retail sales of other base games and expansions. I mean, you probably don't care if there's an overstock of base game product, but I'm sure CMON does. CMON's also done KS for several years now, and maybe they have a competent formula to estimate retail sales based on backer pledges.
CMON and other game companies still sell games through traditional distributor-retailer channels, so, if you want to give your money to the middleman instead of the publisher (or yourself), go right ahead.
I'm looking at this and I'm thinking '...where are his fingers?' He just has one huge blob where fingers should be
Man, that does not look up to Blood Rage quality at all!
I love the idea of a ranked game from CMON, but the models posted last page don't look that interesting, either. Hoping for more!
I wonder if they're based on the existing GoT minis ? If so it could be the sculpting style doesn't suit transition to PVC via scanning (ie shallower, finer details), they'll be tweeked to a degree but how far they can do so I'm not sure without effectively getting a digital sculptor to re-do them (which the licence may not allow)
I'm looking at this and I'm thinking '...where are his fingers?' He just has one huge blob where fingers should be
Man, that does not look up to Blood Rage quality at all!
I love the idea of a ranked game from CMON, but the models posted last page don't look that interesting, either. Hoping for more!
I wonder if they're based on the existing GoT minis ? If so it could be the sculpting style doesn't suit transition to PVC via scanning (ie shallower, finer details), they'll be tweeked to a degree but how far they can do so I'm not sure without effectively getting a digital sculptor to re-do them (which the licence may not allow)
They appear to be entirely new sculpts. I went through the entire range over on the Dark Sword webstore and the new ones are entirely different designs, example is The Mountain which you can see the two different versions of behind the spoiler tags below -
Spoiler:
I believe that Dark Sword focus on traditional sculpting methods for pewter miniatures where as the game will be digital sculpts designed for plastic.
I wonder if the poor detail sculpts on display are quick 3D prints produced so that they had something to show as the one with no fingers is definitely not up to the usual CMON standard with all the details way too shallow.
Well, they brought it to the show so it's really on them. Don't think any of the other minis are that bad so I don't think it's an issue of the 3d printing (assuming the others are also 3d printed)
Did anyone see if they mentioned movement? The trays are "sort of" off putting to me personally, but if it's also templated movement like X-Wing or RuneWars, I may just be out.
If it's "inches" and you can micromanage your movement a bit, I'll be more interested.
I'm looking at this and I'm thinking '...where are his fingers?' He just has one huge blob where fingers should be
Man, that does not look up to Blood Rage quality at all!
I love the idea of a ranked game from CMON, but the models posted last page don't look that interesting, either. Hoping for more!
I wonder if they're based on the existing GoT minis ? If so it could be the sculpting style doesn't suit transition to PVC via scanning (ie shallower, finer details), they'll be tweeked to a degree but how far they can do so I'm not sure without effectively getting a digital sculptor to re-do them (which the licence may not allow)
Ultimately I'd be very surprised if CMoN allowed something that was anything other than their best be released. The license is their biggest, and it sounds like they're spending some money in getting some of the highest level talent involved in the project.
If this is the case, and we can expect Zombicide BP as a minimum quality, it does beg the question why they released pics that didn't show their intent in the best possible light. If they are early prototypes it's not really showing the product in a good light..
The only photos so far have been for the game retailers and I suspect they are holding off on officially releasing photos until they have more detailed models.
There are clearly fingers on that hand, and you can clearly see the shadows, and you can clearly see how the user's gakky cameraphone's flash has filled the recessed with light, eliminating the depth and creating the illusion of smoothness.
Notice his left upper thigh. You think that's smooth too?
Primarily, do you think a sculptor would create a model with a bajillion undercuts and fine chainmail detail but not put in the fingers? "gak guys I was so busy with sculpting nostrils and ear-hair that I forgot to sculpt the fingers. And no one noticed, until this astute - and handsome and intelligent - stranger took a pic with his cameraphone!"
Unfortunately, there are very few companies that have grasped the "we really should release nice promo shots of our product before some slow's blurry cameraphone's pics get distributed all over the internet for forum experts to pick apart" concept.
It looks like CMON are using a new harder plastic for the miniatures that deals better with weapons but it's not HIPS or the stuff currently being used in their boardgames.
Tamereth wrote: I'd love a good GoT mass battles game, but I have reservations about this,
Those are valid reasons from the Dakka point of view. CMON's not going after the modelists, though. It's fanbase are boardgamers, who do not want to assemble models and are fine with colored boardgame plastic. CMON's boardgame plastic is *much* better than most retail boardgame plastic, but not necessarily plastic purchased by Dakkanauts. The conventional miniature wargames niche, with its models that have to be assembled and painted, has *plenty* of contenders (with FFG's Runewars joining them), and CMON's not going after them.
The game has a political system which looks interesting: "In addition to these familiar elements, A Song of Ice & Fire is also bringing in some really unique aspects of the universe. Some well known characters, such as Cersei Lannister, are not active on the battlefield but can be added to the sidelines of your army. These characters interact with what is called “The Intrigue System” and will provide abilities that represent the machinations and political intrigue that makes up so much of Westeros." -- from the G&S article.
SickSix wrote: I will definitely want an Aria Stark model. I think I would be interested only as collection pieces. But the final models better be top notch.
Dark Sword already make all the characters and more, if you just want to paint one or two.
My money's on Baratheon vs. Tyrell for the second starter set, mainly because it would complete the central players at the start of the War of the Five Kings (in the central part of Westeros, to boot).
And if you take a gander at the decoration to both sides of the logo, you can see a rose, a wolf, a lion, a kraken, a trout, a three-headed dragon, a crowned stag, a falcon, a bear, and a sun (with eight spears poking out of it). It's probably safe to assume the bear is supposed to represent either the free folk or the Night's Watch under Jeor's rule (as House Mormont really isn't important enough), and the other nine symbols cover all the Great Houses, which I'd guess to be the goal a few years down the road. Plus hedge knights and Essosi mercenaries as neutral units. And Others might come one day (after A Dream of Spring's release). Maybe Children etc. for prehistoric battles as well.
The problem I see with pre-assembled miniatures with molded sigils in this respect are major subfactions. Most of all the three coats of arms of House Baratheon at the time: Traditional Baratheon, R'hllorian Baratheon, and Lannister-Baratheon. The Boltons are also big enough to warrant the option of being played, yet share the same unit pool as the Starks. Normally one would do transfer sheets and/or release conversion kits, but that isn't really feasible here. Blackfyres on the other hand obviously pose no issue at all, being nothing but a color swap.
Anyway, I'm sorely tempted to get the (first?) two starter sets, assuming I'm correct about them, but beyond that the only army that has any real chance of being collected by me is unbowed, unbent, unbroken.
Tamereth wrote: Based on the books - looks nothing like the characters / imagery I'm expecting.
There are clearly fingers on that hand, and you can clearly see the shadows, and you can clearly see how the user's gakky cameraphone's flash has filled the recessed with light, eliminating the depth and creating the illusion of smoothness.
Notice his left upper thigh. You think that's smooth too?
Primarily, do you think a sculptor would create a model with a bajillion undercuts and fine chainmail detail but not put in the fingers? "gak guys I was so busy with sculpting nostrils and ear-hair that I forgot to sculpt the fingers. And no one noticed, until this astute - and handsome and intelligent - stranger took a pic with his cameraphone!"
I get your point, and I agree that 'bad photo' is a reasonable explanation in this case.
That said, regardless of how top-notch your sculpting is; if the casting is not up to par you can end up with a mini where some parts have retrained all the sculpted detail and some parts that's just blobs. So I wouldn't be that dismissive if I were you.
There are clearly fingers on that hand, and you can clearly see the shadows, and you can clearly see how the user's gakky cameraphone's flash has filled the recessed with light, eliminating the depth and creating the illusion of smoothness.
Notice his left upper thigh. You think that's smooth too?
Primarily, do you think a sculptor would create a model with a bajillion undercuts and fine chainmail detail but not put in the fingers? "gak guys I was so busy with sculpting nostrils and ear-hair that I forgot to sculpt the fingers. And no one noticed, until this astute - and handsome and intelligent - stranger took a pic with his cameraphone!"
I get your point, and I agree that 'bad photo' is a reasonable explanation in this case.
That said, regardless of how top-notch your sculpting is; if the casting is not up to par you can end up with a mini where some parts have retrained all the sculpted detail and some parts that's just blobs. So I wouldn't be that dismissive if I were you.
The render has no issues. DaveC showed it. If anything, it's a casting issue.
Yep. This *is* boardgame plastic we're talking about, so don't expect that much. The miniatures are also pre-assembled, which means mold lines that will be difficult to scrape (not that boardgame plastic makes it much easier), gaps that will have to be filled, the occasional gluing that will have too much glue, and the possible mis-gluing where the tab wasn't properly fitted into the slot. Oh, and the shield that gets in the way when you're trying to paint the thing.
eekamouse wrote: Did anyone see if they mentioned movement? The trays are "sort of" off putting to me personally, but if it's also templated movement like X-Wing or RuneWars, I may just be out.
If it's "inches" and you can micromanage your movement a bit, I'll be more interested.
I heard (I think from your avatar's site lol) that it's templated movement. But CMON also implied that there are different rules for different game sizes. Some are speculated since the bases are round and that there may be a ruleset for skirmish size games. And I'd presume that is probably in inches. Would be sweet...
twincast wrote: My money's on Baratheon vs. Tyrell for the second starter set, mainly because it would complete the central players at the start of the War of the Five Kings (in the central part of Westeros, to boot).
I can see that. And I get that this is based on the books and not the show (I THINK I remember them giving a timeline too...but I also seem to remember saying it's kinda non-canon since you make your own battles?), but I'm guessing the 2nd starter to include Targaryen (for either sweet dragons or major fanboy characters like Khal Drogo and Daenerys), Baratheon (due to their major influence/involvement and fanboy characters - depending on the where in the books), or Greyjoys (due to major presence in the books). But I highly doubt Tyrell. Though I'd love that.
(btw, Houses/factions I'd choose to main, in order of preference are: Baratheon, Martell, Tyrell, Targaryen, Night's Watch)
A few snippets from Michael Shinall posted on BGG.
The Kickstarter will focus on Starks and Lannisters. Given the nature of wargames, and how important the retail store is for their longevity, most items will be only released through retail so we can support them there.
Aside from Major Houses/Factions, there are a wealth of mercenaries/houses out there who would love to work for some coin or furthering their own goals...
Release-wise you'll see the same basic pattern most other wargames follow, with standard monthly releases of new units. Initial retail will have 4+ factions.
The Starter alone contains enough variety to play with various strategies, army compositions (while you have the same 4 units on each side, the various Attachments and Heroes you take will drastically change your tactics and play-style), and a full gambit of scenarios- so not every game is just "I'm going to kill all your guys before you kill mine". You'll have a good bit of variety in just that one package.
You will get some punchboard terrain in the starter- see our Wrath of Kings 2 Player Starter or the Dark Age Path to Glory 2 Player Starter.
Note that in this game you'll be fielding larger terrain pieces, and what I mean by that is don't expect things like tiny 1" hedges or...like barrels or whatever... terrain is a very important aspect of the battlefield, especially in rank-and-file combat, so it needs to have a substantial impact.
Standard size game should be played on a 4x4 (48in x 48in), with larger sized games pushed up to 6x4.
These are all new sculpts entirely, provided by CMON and approved by Dark Sword Miniatures. They are standard 28mm Heroic (ranging to 32, 38 and higher depending on unit), and to-scale with all current Dark Sword miniatures.
All units are approved by GRRM and Crew, and we've made full strives to make sure that anything that appears is in keeping with the source material.
So if it could appear in Westeros, it can appear here- but don't expect to see things like Mounted Direwolf Cavalry or Lannister Lion Tamers or anything like that.
If the unit would appropriately exist, then it might exist.
Many thanks for the info DaveC, don't know where you always get these gems from (both for this and all the other games) but is really appreciated !
Great to know that this isn't just going to be a splash release and will get some proper support. Also, that the scale is the same as the current Dark Sword minis (which are really lovely by the way, if you haven't seen them). Will be nice to get some character pieces painted up in the run up to the retail release!
This excites me for some reason. I love the show but never read the books. But a historical low-fantasy regimental combat looks cool and scratches an itch.
and I can dip them!!!!!
Shrapnelsmile wrote: Although I shouldn't be adding any more miniature games to my rotation, I'm torn between waiting for this vs. picking up Rune Wars in a few weeks.
You can always "wait and see" how RW does retail and with the reviews. GoT will also hit retail.
I think I'll skip both, since it'll take another four months to paint my undead KoW army.
twincast wrote: My money's on Baratheon vs. Tyrell for the second starter set, mainly because it would complete the central players at the start of the War of the Five Kings (in the central part of Westeros, to boot).
I can see that. And I get that this is based on the books and not the show (I THINK I remember them giving a timeline too...but I also seem to remember saying it's kinda non-canon since you make your own battles?), but I'm guessing the 2nd starter to include Targaryen (for either sweet dragons or major fanboy characters like Khal Drogo and Daenerys), Baratheon (due to their major influence/involvement and fanboy characters - depending on the where in the books), or Greyjoys (due to major presence in the books). But I highly doubt Tyrell. Though I'd love that.
(btw, Houses/factions I'd choose to main, in order of preference are: Baratheon, Martell, Tyrell, Targaryen, Night's Watch)
Greyjoys are certainly possible, but Targaryens? No way. Seriously, nope, none at all. Precisely because of the lack of suitable characters at the time at least all the early releases of the game will be set in.
twincast wrote: My money's on Baratheon vs. Tyrell for the second starter set, mainly because it would complete the central players at the start of the War of the Five Kings (in the central part of Westeros, to boot).
I can see that. And I get that this is based on the books and not the show (I THINK I remember them giving a timeline too...but I also seem to remember saying it's kinda non-canon since you make your own battles?), but I'm guessing the 2nd starter to include Targaryen (for either sweet dragons or major fanboy characters like Khal Drogo and Daenerys), Baratheon (due to their major influence/involvement and fanboy characters - depending on the where in the books), or Greyjoys (due to major presence in the books). But I highly doubt Tyrell. Though I'd love that.
(btw, Houses/factions I'd choose to main, in order of preference are: Baratheon, Martell, Tyrell, Targaryen, Night's Watch)
Greyjoys are certainly possible, but Targaryens? No way. Seriously, nope, none at all. Precisely because of the lack of suitable characters at the time at least all the early releases of the game will be set in.
I can see that, but like I said, I thought it was implied this game is non-canon. CMON will eventually have to release an army w/ Dany and dragons and Drogo and horserider dudes. Or sub in Unsullied. Either way, we're talking dragons here. They'll sell. I don't see why CMON would avoid that.
Given that GOT is largely low fantasy with the combatants virtually all human I'm not sure what a dedicated set of rules and miniatures could offer over the already large amount of medieval rules and miniatures that are already out there.
LuciusAR wrote: Given that GOT is largely low fantasy with the combatants virtually all human I'm not sure what a dedicated set of rules and miniatures could offer over the already large amount of medieval rules and miniatures that are already out there.
Well, there's a bit of magic, some magic weapons and some other fantasy stuff like Undead, Shapeshifters, etc. I don't think the rules will be anything ground-breaking, but having more dedicated miniatures and plastic basic infantry for ASOIAF is nice. Besides, G.R.R. Martin seems to be a miniature nerd like the rest of us, according to the Dark Sword page. So he may be a driving force behind it.
LuciusAR wrote: Given that GOT is largely low fantasy with the combatants virtually all human I'm not sure what a dedicated set of rules and miniatures could offer over the already large amount of medieval rules and miniatures that are already out there.
LuciusAR wrote: Given that GOT is largely low fantasy with the combatants virtually all human I'm not sure what a dedicated set of rules and miniatures could offer over the already large amount of medieval rules and miniatures that are already out there.
LuciusAR wrote: Given that GOT is largely low fantasy with the combatants virtually all human I'm not sure what a dedicated set of rules and miniatures could offer over the already large amount of medieval rules and miniatures that are already out there.
twincast wrote: Greyjoys are certainly possible, but Targaryens? No way. Seriously, nope, none at all. Precisely because of the lack of suitable characters at the time at least all the early releases of the game will be set in.
I can see that, but like I said, I thought it was implied this game is non-canon. CMON will eventually have to release an army w/ Dany and dragons and Drogo and horserider dudes. Or sub in Unsullied. Either way, we're talking dragons here. They'll sell. I don't see why CMON would avoid that.
Dany's Essosi troops are neither Targaryen nor in Westeros, and what CMON would or wouldn't avoid is entirely academic speculation as unlike with the TV show, Martin actually has last say on this one. We'll see what if any future and/or past events they'll incorporate as this game goes on, but for the time being it is set squarely in Westeros at the time of A Clash of Kings. Obviously the battles you play with the game are not canonical, wouldn't be even if Martin allowed for ASoIaF canon not written by his own hands, but that does not change the parameters of the setting. And dragons of rideable size as presented in the books uniquely break any semblance of balance unless both forces clashing have such, so absolutely do not expect them anywhen soon.
Eric Lang now has a permanent gig with CMON as head of game design, so if he's involved with this, which seems like a safe assumption, the rules should be top-notch.
Michael Shinall (CMON Mr. Black) is the lead designer Eric Lang is helping with the development. This is tabletop game so it's more in Michaels area of speciality than Eric's
twincast wrote: Greyjoys are certainly possible, but Targaryens? No way. Seriously, nope, none at all. Precisely because of the lack of suitable characters at the time at least all the early releases of the game will be set in.
I can see that, but like I said, I thought it was implied this game is non-canon. CMON will eventually have to release an army w/ Dany and dragons and Drogo and horserider dudes. Or sub in Unsullied. Either way, we're talking dragons here. They'll sell. I don't see why CMON would avoid that.
As unlike with the TV show, Martin actually has last say on this one. .
Oh God - that means loads of dull, useless characters that he loves to churn out rather than the good ones he created early on....
Do we know the full terms of the licence, hopefully they will have some wiggle room?
Mr Morden wrote: Oh God - that means loads of dull, useless characters that he loves to churn out rather than the good ones he created early on....
Do we know the full terms of the licence, hopefully they will have some wiggle room?
Me vehemently disagreeing with that assessment aside, what's that actually got to do with the game? Like, at all?
What sort of wiggle room? CMON do their design thing, run every miniature by Dark Sword who presumably have developed a solid idea of what George likes and doesn't like and check their final passes with him, and after that all pans out it enters production. So visually it's very tight. Setting-wise they've IMNSHO not been 100% clear so far whether they've merely decided to focus exclusively on the War of the Five Kings for now as an easily selling starting point or whether the licence currently indeed only includes that aera and area. Any and all HBO stuff is thankfully off-limits. And gameplay-wise, other than liking CMON's pitch over others' to begin with and maybe an early high level decision or two, Martin and/or Dark Sword are presumably leaving them alone to do their thing.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh God - that means loads of dull, useless characters that he loves to churn out rather than the good ones he created early on....
Do we know the full terms of the licence, hopefully they will have some wiggle room?
Me vehemently disagreeing with that assessment aside, what's that actually got to do with the game? Like, at all?
What sort of wiggle room? CMON do their design thing, run every miniature by Dark Sword who presumably have developed a solid idea of what George likes and doesn't like and check their final passes with him, and after that all pans out it enters production. So visually it's very tight. Setting-wise they've IMNSHO not been 100% clear so far whether they've merely decided to focus exclusively on the War of the Five Kings for now as an easily selling starting point or whether the licence currently indeed only includes that aera and area. Any and all HBO stuff is thankfully off-limits. And gameplay-wise, other than liking CMON's pitch over others' to begin with and maybe an early high level decision or two, Martin and/or Dark Sword are presumably leaving them alone to do their thing.
Its a direct reply to your reply discussing what would and would not be in the game - this is a forum I assume others are allowed to express thier views on a driection of travel that the game and its minis might be taking????????
I think we have both expressed a view on the later books and the current show and they are polar opposites.
Thank you for the info on what might be CMON's ability to produce minis.
SickSix wrote: I will definitely want an Aria Stark model. I think I would be interested only as collection pieces. But the final models better be top notch.
Guile: This is our first chance we’re bringing the product to the public. The miniatures that you will be able to see are resins, but are very close to what the final versions will be. What we have on display isn’t quite everything that will be in the box (meaning there will be more than what you see).
We wanted the sense of a mass-scale game, but have the feeling of a smaller game. So the rules are quick and streamlined, giving you blocks of figures. The factions are all very different from one-another.
Michael: When we started this over 2 years ago, we were having to deal with factions that were different but were still two guys versus more guys. We talked with George R. R. Martin to make sure things were very different. The Lanniseters have a regimental, almost Roman look to them. The Stark units are big and burly and are wearing bears. Even though almost everything in the setting is a human, we wanted a very different look for the factions, as well as how they play. Lannisters have better gear, but the Starks are much more loyal and will fight harder, even as they get whittled down.
Guile: We’re partnering with Dark Sword Miniatures. Everything is going through George. We have license for anything that is in the books. There’s a great diversity in houses.
Question: Since you’re in contact with George, have you screamed at him about his next book?
Eric: Nonono.
Guile: We wanted to make sure that the core box, on its own, is a great product. It is designed with lots of customization just in the box. For example, your choice of commander augments your Tactics Deck.
Michael: Each army has a Tactics deck that’s determined by your faction as well as your faction. You could play the exact same units, but with a different commander, and your army will play very differently. So, say, The Mountain will make it straightforward and charging. While Jamie might be more tactical.
Eric: Everything you need is right there. There’s not a lot of “hidden rules” that you have to go and look for.
Guile: For example, about 1/3 of the deck will be affected by the commander. You can also trade out regular troopers for non-character heroes that will also change the armies.
Non-combat heroes like Cersie, will go onto a Tactics Board. They still have an effect on the game.
Michael: If you add Cersie in your army, you can benefit from the different Tactics on the board and change the course of the battle via Intrigue and such.
But, overall, this is not a high-fantasy setting. Adding characters to units won’t just bump-up armies. They will, instead, change the tactics of how a unit plays. The characters, in general, aren’t going to have a higher kill-count than your average trooper, but will instead change how units play.
Eric: Tactics cards work with the Tactics board. If a character occupies a space on the Tactics Board (and you can only have 1 character in each slot), it will “unlock” better abilities on the Tactics Cards.
Guile: The models will be pre-assembled in colored plastic. Each faction has their own color associated with it.
Michael: One note, the pieces are pre-assembled, but not one piece. Modelers have asked us about that.
Guile: The game is based on a points system. So it scales up and down easily. The rules don’t change at all depending on your army size.
Eric: We are talking a lot about accessibility. It’s about “activate one try, then another activated tray.”
Guile: So why have the minis? A unit’s power is based on the ranks in a tray. An entire row is a rank. Once a unit is depleted of its ranks, the number of attack dice changes. Most of the time it goes down. Also, as a unit will make Resolve checks, they will lose more models, and it will get harder to pass the tests as they lose minis.
Michael: It’s very easy to track the abilities of a unit by simply looking at the number of ranks left in a unit.
Eric: It’s not all about how hard you can hit. It can very much be about how you can out-morale your enemy.
Michael: For example. Lannisters have low morale since they’re just paid soldiers. While the Starks are fighting for a cause, so they will stick around longer.
Question: Where is the game set in the timeline?
Michael: King Baratheon has died. That’s it. From there, you can play as you want, sort of making a “fan-fiction generator,” letting you decide how things have gone. We will have 2 modes of play that you can just play as you want, but we will also have scenarios that will let you recreate famous battles from the books.
Eric: This is a full wargame, by the way.
Question: What size is the board?
Michael: The standard sized game is 4’x4’
Question: What dice system does it have?
Michael: It is a D6 system.
Question: How does terrain affect movement?
Michael: We have not skimped on terrain rules for the game, as it is very important for games like this. They use a keyword system so you fill out the board with pieces and assign them keywords so you know how they will affect models as they move across it.
Question: Most games are 1-vs-1. Will there be rules for 3, 4, 5 player games?
Michael: Oh, absolutely. Even in a large game, with alternating activations, it’s always at least almost your turn. Plus, with the Tactics cards, you will still have things you can do, even on your opponent’s turns.
Eric: Pacing and timing is everything. We thought a lot about that. With the Tactics board, it’s very important when you activate things.
Question: Is there a phase for the Tactics cards?
Michael: No. There are triggers that will activate tactics cards from your hand.
Question: The starter will be Starks vs. Lannisters. Will there be other boxes later?
Guile: There will be. This is not just a 2-faction game. There will be other factions in time.
Question: Have you really been able to create your own units and such within the setting?
Michael: Oh, certainly. The Lannisters are much more “regimental.” But the Stark guys will have Tulleys and Umbers and such, and will have a more “ragtag,” but not in a bad way. But they will have a rather wide look to the force.
Question: Is this an all-melee game?
Michael: There are ranged units in the game, and they will be strong, but most are move-or-shoot types of units. So you will have to think hard about where your units end up like that.
Guile: And ranges aren’t very long in the game. Many max out at about 12”.
Eric: We didn’t want the game to be feeling like units just trading fire far away.
Question: How does combat work in the game?
Michael: Hey Eric? Wanna fight it out?
Eric: Sure.
(editor’s note: this is just my words about this, as there was a lot of back-and-forth to try and type out the gist of)
Trays of units have lines of sight notches on them. Models have line of sight. You will get bonuses for attacking models in the flank or the back. Units, when they move, can pivot in place before moving (and occasionally afterward).
A unit’s movement is right on the card, letting you know, in inches, how far you can move. Pre-measure is fully allowed in the game. When a unit charges, it has its base movement, plus d6”. If you make it, great. If not, you move forward and stop at the end of your movement. When units make contact, you square up. A unit can make a charge attack after it moves.
Units have a stat line that tells you how many dice they get to roll based on how many ranks they have left. They will say what a model will hit on. So, for example, a unit might get 6 dice and hit on 4+, or such. A unit will get extra hits when they charge, as well as attacking from the side or back.
When you hit, your opponent will make an armor save based on the value of their defense. There are potentially attacks that will change what that defensive roll will be. So, for example, if a unit charges from the side to a unit and rolls 4 hits, their opponent would need to make 8 saves. Tactics cards can also change various effects in this.
After the defensive roll, a unit will lose models equal to the number of failed saves. This may reduce a unit down in rank size. Whenever a unit loses a model, they will make a resolve test. Each unit has a resolve value. You must roll 2d6 and roll equal to or higher than your resolve value. If you pass, nothing happens. If you fail, the unit will lose the rest of its last rank. This can potentially make a unit run off entirely (if there’s only one rank left in the unit).
(Editor’s note: Ok, back to the Q&A)
Question: Will there be dragons? Will there be organized play?
Michael: If it appears in the books, it will appear in the game. (oooooh!)
Guile: As for the 2nd question, we are fully planning on having support for organized play on Day 1.
Question: How will you deal with magic?
Michael: Well, it’s a low magic setting, but I can guarantee it’ll show up in your Tactics Deck.
Eric: The Tactics deck allows a lot of customization like that. That will mean you won’t always have access to all your abilities, but you can still have it made to what your army wants to be like. We wanted some drama and uncertainty, and that’s what the deck brings.
Question: Are you planning on play mats and such?
Guile: … perhaps?
Question: Since characters in the series die often, will there be “eras” to the game as the story progresses?
Michael: No. There will never be a point where, “you can’t use that model anymore.” But there will be different versions of the named characters, based on how they’ve grown and changed over the course of the narrative.
Question: Will you focus on big box armies or more like smaller-box mercenaries?
Guile: A little of both. There will be the big army boxes and the starters, but there will be smaller size unit-sized boxes, or a box that’s a set of characters.
Question: What is a “standard-sized” army?
Michael: About 5-7 units per side. With a game taking about 60-90min.
Question: How about movement? Do you have to worry about spinning inches?
Michael: Models are able to pivot in place during part of their movement actions. No worries about having to remember so many inches pivoting.
Question: How did the game come about?
Michael: The higher-ups at CMON talked with Jim Ludwig at Dark Sword and, well, they just kinda came together and now we have the game.
Question: What about win conditions in the game?
Michael: That really depends on the scenario, which are still somewhat in development. It won’t just be “wipe ‘em off the board.”
Question: Campaign rules? Will there be some?
Michael: That’s in development.
Question: What about objectives during the game?
Michael: Still also something that’s in development.
Eric: There’s so much depth and texture we can add, particularly with the Tactics deck, that we can be bringing into the game.
Question: Are the units always 12 models in size?
Michael: Units can potentially link together, depending on the different units. They have specific abilities that will tell you how they work.
Question: So when buying units, it’s a standard size?
Michael: Yes.
Question: What are the final models being made of?
Michael: The miniatures are going to be in plastic, with spears and such are going to be a slightly harder plastic material, so you don’t have bendy-spears and such.
Galas wrote: A KS? But... the game is already done. No?Or is a "We say its a Kickstarter but is really a Pre-order"?
Well, feel free to back another KS project, then.The base game is already done. The expansions and SG's not necessarily. Creators often sink in money before a project starts and use the project to recoup their money. That's what Johnny Lauck did for his first metal miniature KS. If you don't like CMON using KS, don't pledge. CMON will have the game available retail, and you can tell them to use retail by buying the game that way.
Those front-rankers in the red plastic look a bit... chunky.
And the aesthetic on several of those characters is far too anime-looking. Like whatever silliness is going on with the two-handed sword guy on the character stand.
Some of the other models I like though. I'm not sure where the disconnect is. Dark Sword's metal miniatures line for ASoIF is mostly great. Why the sudden shift for this board game?
I was kind of excited about this game. Now it's starting to look like a disappointment.
You've got to sculpt to the material so Darksword delicacy won't work (as well) with the boardgame plastic used here,
you will probably also find subtle changes in the looks as the plastic shrinks differentially so the proportions seen there will end up not quite the same as the proportions of the final minis
Galas wrote: A KS? But... the game is already done. No?Or is a "We say its a Kickstarter but is really a Pre-order"?
Well, feel free to back another KS project, then.The base game is already done. The expansions and SG's not necessarily. Creators often sink in money before a project starts and use the project to recoup their money. That's what Johnny Lauck did for his first metal miniature KS. If you don't like CMON using KS, don't pledge. CMON will have the game available retail, and you can tell them to use retail by buying the game that way.
Don't need to be so defensive! I'll pledge if the game promises. But just as Sony making a Kickstarter to Shenmue 3, being a multimillonarie company to me was a totally unmoral use of the platform, using KS as pre-order platform to me doesn't sound right.
Galas wrote: A KS? But... the game is already done. No?Or is a "We say its a Kickstarter but is really a Pre-order"?
Well, feel free to back another KS project, then.The base game is already done. The expansions and SG's not necessarily. Creators often sink in money before a project starts and use the project to recoup their money. That's what Johnny Lauck did for his first metal miniature KS. If you don't like CMON using KS, don't pledge. CMON will have the game available retail, and you can tell them to use retail by buying the game that way.
Don't need to be so defensive! I'll pledge if the game promises. But just as Sony making a Kickstarter to Shenmue 3, being a multimillonarie company to me was a totally unmoral use of the platform, using KS as pre-order platform to me doesn't sound right.
The only real "Major Corporations" in Board Gaming is Hasbro and Asmodee (and even Asmodee is a recent member of the Major Corp Club). CMoN is a Major Player in boardgaming, but the is mostly due to Kickstarter allowing them to grow quickly. They wouldn't be able to support the groth they have without Kickstarter.
Galas wrote: Don't need to be so defensive! I'll pledge if the game promises. But just as Sony making a Kickstarter to Shenmue 3, being a multimillonarie company to me was a totally unmoral use of the platform, using KS as pre-order platform to me doesn't sound right.
I still say if it "doesn't sound right", don't support their use of crowdfunding. CMON, btw, will also have retail-only expansions for Game of Thrones. Their base games typically sell at a good discount on sale from the OLGS.
Myself, I haven't backed KS projects for other reasons, such a history of poor treatment of customers (eg. Prodos), not fulfilling previous KS obligations (eg. Prodos), attempts to deceive KS backers (eg. Prodos), and use of other's IP without permission (eg. okay, not Prodos!)..
Very good looking renders that should mean very pretty minis.
I'm curious as to why they're including the Tullys in with the Starks (as per the interview) - I thought that the Riverlands were a large enough area/potential faction in the game to get their own army. I'd like to see a bunch of warriors with fish-scale mail.
I'm curious as to why they're including the Tullys in with the Starks (as per the interview) - I thought that the Riverlands were a large enough area/potential faction in the game to get their own army. I'd like to see a bunch of warriors with fish-scale mail.
The initial waves would seem to be based on the War of Five Kings forces so the Stark/Tully alliance makes sense (as does the choice of period as it probably gives the widest range of live characters and factions). Hopefully there will be separate miniatures to distinguish between the two.
Surprised if there isn't at least a Blackfish character. Possibly Edmure. Cat could have a rule that her side isn't allowed to spend more than 10 seconds making decisions each turn and has to just blunder on.
Jon has +100 to his defence characteristic due to his impenetrable Plot Armour.
I wish I could get excited for this game... but I don't know, so far it's just not catching my interest. Hopefully the models to come will really show what they can do... but even the thorough reviews I've seen have mostly focused on characters, and it's easy to get excellent fantasy characters almost anywhere.
I'm kind of hoping it's got some Legacy Game elements
(board games where you permanently alter/destroy parts of the game as you progress to provide a distinct play experience, unless you 'cheat' don't, best known example is pandemic legacy)
GoT seems a perfect fit for that with it's ever shrinking character (and faction) pool
(board games where you permanently alter/destroy parts of the game as you progress to provide a distinct play experience, unless you 'cheat' don't, best known example is pandemic legacy)
GoT seems a perfect fit for that with it's ever shrinking character (and faction) pool
But they're billing it as a competitive miniatures war-game... how would that even work?
(board games where you permanently alter/destroy parts of the game as you progress to provide a distinct play experience, unless you 'cheat' don't, best known example is pandemic legacy)
GoT seems a perfect fit for that with it's ever shrinking character (and faction) pool
But they're billing it as a competitive miniatures war-game... how would that even work?
Campaign rules that allow you to forge your own narrative?
have local metas where your characters really matter as you could loose them for the 'season'?
Take care of them in tournaments (even if it means running away) otherwise next round you're starting at a major disadvantage mirroring the feel of the books?
It's for designers far more talented than me to work that sort of thing out
but it just seems an opportunity to do something different, and since CMON has such a strong boardgame slant they'd be the ones to try it and this IP would have a strong fit for it
it also might lure in players who would not normally consider tournaments as apart for the 1st battle it wouldn't be the same old 'balanced' game every other fantasy game is trying to be
It would maybe make sense after Jon lets the wildlings in and rolls them into his anti-bolton forces, butbthat seems to be much later than the game is set in.
infinite_array wrote: I see some people complaining about a recent reveal - berserkers in the Stark ranks, saying that its not in line with the books or the show.
I don't see this unit as a problem at all, the article makes it clear that these is a House Umber unit and the main compliant is that they were not referred to as Bezerkers in the books but there are going to have to be instances where CMON gives new names to units to differentiate between all the different unit types.
Closer image of Tyrion hopefully they do a fighting version as well. (so hard to know what to post re spoilers!)
That looks like Sansa with the Dire Wolf next to her, Arya would be younger looking assuming they are using the ages in the books and not the older versions from the TV series and less likely to wear a dress so that might be Catelyn next to her?
I don't see this unit as a problem at all, the article makes it clear that these is a House Umber unit and the main compliant is that they were not referred to as Bezerkers in the books but there are going to have to be instances where CMON gives new names to units to differentiate between all the different unit types.
Yeah, I suppose the complaints are coming from people assuming that "taken from the books" means "looks like Perry Miniatures" and not "we can't use the likenesses of the TV characters."
I don't see this unit as a problem at all, the article makes it clear that these is a House Umber unit and the main compliant is that they were not referred to as Bezerkers in the books but there are going to have to be instances where CMON gives new names to units to differentiate between all the different unit types.
Yeah, I suppose the complaints are coming from people assuming that "taken from the books" means "looks like Perry Miniatures" and not "we can't use the likenesses of the TV characters."
The complaint on the Facebook page is that there is no reference to House Umber having a unit called Bezerkers in their army so they should not be a unit in the game. The trouble is that no faction really have detailed troop descriptions within the books so if you just stick to the books you end up with "Stark Swordsman", "Stark Archers", "House Umber Swordsman", "House Umber Archers", etc without much flavour to them. I can see why CMON are adding more flavour with the names.
I still remember the outrage when Fantasy Flight made a Shieldmaidens of House Mormont unit for Battles of Westeros (this is more of an issue though Mormont fielding female warriors is never mentioned but Umbra did field male melee troops which are all these Bezerkers are but with a fancier name).
Suppose that CMoN are walking a fine line of keeping the fans of the series happy by staying true to the source material, but also adding enough variety to have a tactical wargames. Perhaps adding enough spice also do that you are doing something other than just having a historical game (and may as well be playing LDLG or similar)
The above examples cited sound fine to me, it's not like they are introducing dire Wolf cavalry, giant skeletons or burrowing dwarven infantry (or other similar stuff that would indicate they definitely don't care about the source material)
I see it as more an issue of semantics as anything; even die-hard fans would likely recognise the wish to add variety and character to different House/Unit types. The term 'Berserker' just appears to conjure up images of frothing suicidal madmen which doesn't really fit with the setting (in most instances) or even the models we've seen.
I doubt there would be this level of complaint if they'd use something like 'Shieldbreaker' or 'Headsmen'.
Interesting.
To be honest I did not liked the Setting of GoT, but both my wife and me were quickly hooked by the great Story.
So as said I am interested, then I saw - big massed battle... meh!
But hopefully they will include a Zombicide Black Plague Crossover!
(The mountain already sneaked in Black Plague GH)
Ginsu33 wrote: Least this game will have more combat than the actual show...
You mean we get to re-create Jon's tactical 'genius' of the Battle of the Bastards? Rumours are his model will bring the 'Leeroy Jenkins' special rule to the table.
Also by show rules, if Tyrion takes any damage in turn 1 of the game then the controlling player gets to go and have a nap for 2 hours and can take no active part but automatically wins the Battle.
I'm absolutely not interested in a Song of Ice and Fire wargame, but I have to admit, the Lannister troops look rather nice, for generic vaguely fantasy knights types.
Please, I am looking for something to replace the miserable M@As I have for the KoW Basileans. Some of these sculpts look promising, but, alas, I think the scale is off - what did I read, 35mm?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Others as an army. That would certainly shake up the gameplay a bit. Also, dragons would change gameplay as well
Nostromodamus wrote: I watched a gameplay preview of this and was just constantly thinking I'd rather just play KoW.
Probably gonna sit this one out.
If I'm thinking of the same gameplay demo that you watched, to be fair, KoW would look like a pile of gak as well if the promotional video was that bad.
Yes, because Cersei would be in or near a battle. That makes perfect sense and does nothing to illustrate how this is just a vapid cash grab. Nothing at all.
DarknessEternal wrote: Yes, because Cersei would be in or near a battle. That makes perfect sense and does nothing to illustrate how this is just a vapid cash grab. Nothing at all.
Cersei is one of the non combat unit who are not present on the battle field but instead work behind the scenes to secure a political or tactical advantage for their army.
Wars are not solely fought on the battlefield. Behind the scenes, there is political maneuvering, shady deals, and outright backstabbing. It takes a mind that can see a complex situation from all angles to change the tide of a conflict in their favor. In The War of the Five Kings, forces clash on the fields of Westeros. But removed from the frontline, many influential figures work to control the outcome. In A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game (ASOIF:TMG), you need to balance commanding your troops on the field with working to put yourself in a better tactical position for victory.
While Combat Units (CUs) position themselves and ready for assault, alliances are being formed, plots are being crafted, and political machinations are taking shape. This is all represented via the Tactics Board and Non-Combat Units (NCU).
Nostromodamus wrote: I watched a gameplay preview of this and was just constantly thinking I'd rather just play KoW.
Probably gonna sit this one out.
If I'm thinking of the same gameplay demo that you watched, to be fair, KoW would look like a pile of gak as well if the promotional video was that bad.
DarknessEternal wrote: Yes, because Cersei would be in or near a battle. That makes perfect sense and does nothing to illustrate how this is just a vapid cash grab. Nothing at all.
Cersei is one of the non combat unit who are not present on the battle field but instead work behind the scenes to secure a political or tactical advantage for their army.
Which is one of my favourite features of this game. I kinda feel like people are aiming to hate this no matter what it is. Is it just because it is licensed?
DarknessEternal wrote: Yes, because Cersei would be in or near a battle. That makes perfect sense and does nothing to illustrate how this is just a vapid cash grab. Nothing at all.
Cersei is one of the non combat unit who are not present on the battle field but instead work behind the scenes to secure a political or tactical advantage for their army.
Which is one of my favourite features of this game. I kinda feel like people are aiming to hate this no matter what it is. Is it just because it is licensed?
From what I saw I just didn't feel excited about it, though that may be down to presentation.
I'll give it a second look when the KS hits but it's competing with a lot of other stuff* for my money.
* Fallout, Zombicide: Green Tide, Bones 4, 40k 8th.
"The call to war has been sounded, and on July 25 at 3:00pm EST, A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game (ASOIF:TMG) from CMON and Dark Sword Miniatures, Inc, launches on Kickstarter."
Myself, the political intrigue mechanics look like something new and possibly hybridy to the rank and file table. "When constructing your army, you may spend points to include various NCUs, such as Tyrion Lannister and Catelyn Stark. These allies won’t see combat, but will work their skills aiding the troops none-the-less. During your turn, instead of activating a CU, you may elect to move one of your NCUs onto the Tactics Board, claiming an empty zone. When this is done, you’ll gain an immediate benefit based on where you positioned your NCU, ranging from extra Attacks, bonus Movement, or causing powerful debuffs to enemy Units. In addition, most NCUs also have a unique effect of their own that will trigger when they are moved onto the Tactics Board. In the case of Tyrion, his cunning mind allows you greater access to Tactics Cards, or the ability to deny your opponent cards of their own. More so, if he is placed on the Crown zone of the Tactics board, his influence expands even further, allowing him to choose both effects.Of course, the rewards for claiming a zone go beyond just the immediate benefit! The various Tactics Cards utilized by each player also gain numerous benefits and boosts based on claimed zones of the Tactics Board for the entirety of that game round."
Really like the idea of the characters outside of the Battle causing machinations with it. Reminds me a bit of the Peter Pig game Bloody Barons, set to cover the war of the roses period, where you had section before the game where bribes and Politics could affect the units you place on the table and their effectiveness.
I guess this actually makes sense if you think that GRRM actually based some of the events in GoT on historical events!
I would say that miniature represents him at the very start of the war before he lost his nose. I expect at some point we will see an updated version that can be use on the battlefield and another non combat version to represent his time as hand of the king.
Picking the people you want to go into battle with is not a decision to make lightly. Choosing the person to lead you into the fray can be even tougher. With control of all of Westeros at stake, you need to be able to trust your army with your life. In the War of the Five Kings, you can be sure that the other Houses will not give up an inch. In A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game (ASOIF:TMG), you recruit your soldiers and choose someone to lead the charge into battle. The person you pick will have a great effect on the way you play, and whether you find glory or death on the battlefield. We previously looked at Combat Unit (CU) Attachments, but there is one more aspect of them to explore.
Certain figures in the game are Commanders. When constructing your army, you will always choose one Army Commander; a renowned hero that will shape how your army plays and operates. More often than not, your Commander will also be a CU Attachment, taking to the battlefield to personally join in the fight. In that way, they act as a standard CU Attachment.
The big difference from other Attachments, however, is how they manipulate your Tactics Deck. Each faction has access to its own deck of cards, 14 in total (two copies of seven unique cards) that make up the unique strategies and methods of that faction. When you pick an Army Commander, they also add six of their own cards (usually three unique cards, two copies of each) to your Tactics Deck, giving you a total of 20 cards.
You start with three Tactics Cards and refill your hand back up to three at the start of each round. Each Tactic Card lists when it can be played, as well as its immediate effect. In addition to this, most Tactics Cards will grant additional bonuses depending on if you control various areas of the Tactics Board. In the above example, we have the House Stark Tactics Card Winter is Coming, which cripples enemy CUs by making them Panicked and Vulnerable, thus becoming easy prey for a Stark assault! Should you also control the Swords area of the Tactics Board, the enemy can’t resist the negatives instilled by the cards, such is House Stark’s military might!
As previously mentioned, your army Commander is going to add their own Tactics Cards to the deck (almost a full 1/3 of it). This, in turn, also manipulates the overall strategy you employ. For example, in the ASOIF:TMG Starter Set - Stark vs. Lannister you will have access to two Commanders on each side. For the Starks this means Greajon Umber: Lord of Last Hearth and Robb Stark: The Young Wolf. If you choose Greatjon as your Commander, his specific Tactics Cards are going to make your CUs become all the deadlier as they come closer to being wiped out- really embodying the “berserker” play style of House Umber as a whole.
Contrast this to an army led by Robb, whose cards focus on swift maneuverability and a focus on hitting the enemy in their weak-spots. Your army won’t have the raw hitting power that you had with Greatjon, but you’ll more than make up for that with speed and cunning.
It is in this way that, even if two players were commanding the exact same units, their overall tactics, strategy, and play style can be vastly different!
Combat is a tug-of-war, with each side looking for any advantage they can get. A wise leader will know when is the right time to make an assault on the enemy and when they should move themselves into a more tactically sound position.
In ASOIF:TMG you will have to make critical decisions with the life of your troops hanging in the balance. No one said war was easy, but make the right choices and take some well-timed risks and you might must find yourself ascending to the Iron Throne. Your leadership will be put to the test when ASOIF:TMG comes to Kickstarter on July 25 at 3 PM EST.
Seems like a mechanic from Wrath of Kings, where you pick a Leader model to be the force's commander, which gives a special Training benefit to all models in the force. Tactics cards look cool as well.
It looks interesting, will probably back this with an eye towards using the minis for KoW once the hype has died down, from the looks of things, the trays will make that conversion quite easy, and they look like they'll be useful for either skirmish or rank-and-file in pretty much any fantasy game.
I can see it being a good investment, the market for fantasy humans has been really weak ever since GW scrapped its range and replaced it with more space marines.
And KoW has a lot of suitable army lists (Kingdoms of Men, Varangur, Brotherhood, Undead/ Empire of Dust/ Abyssals) for them to fit into. I know someone with a full GoT-themed Brotherhood army already.
Hopefully not too much KS-exclusive nonsense although knowing CMoN that'll be half the minis in the entire range...
scarletsquig wrote: It looks interesting, will probably back this with an eye towards using the minis for KoW once the hype has died down, from the looks of things, the trays will make that conversion quite easy, and they look like they'll be useful for either skirmish or rank-and-file in pretty much any fantasy game.
I can see it being a good investment, the market for fantasy humans has been really weak ever since GW scrapped its range and replaced it with more space marines.
And KoW has a lot of suitable army lists (Kingdoms of Men, Varangur, Brotherhood, Undead/ Empire of Dust/ Abyssals) for them to fit into. I know someone with a full GoT-themed Brotherhood army already.
Hopefully not too much KS-exclusive nonsense although knowing CMoN that'll be half the minis in the entire range...
That's pretty much where I'm at with the ASOFAI KS - miniatures for use in KoW if suitably priced I've little interest in picking up another fantasy rule set (I'm more interested in SciFi) and what I've seen of the rules doesn't interest me. CMoN usually gives you your monies worth of miniatures but lots of KS exclusive heroes arent much use in a tabletop war game. I'm also concerned that stuff like archers will be paid add ons and the price could quickly get out of hand.
This past weekend at CMON Expo, I had a chance to demo CMON’s upcoming A Song of Ice & Fire minis game. Before diving into the details, the caveat is that the game is still in development and elements of it may be changed before it releases, but the demo game was extremely polished and refined, so any future changes are likely to be quite minor.
To start off, the last canonical event to occur in the books before the game’s setting is the death of King Robert. This is important because it means that (spoilers!) certain events have not occurred and we can likely expect to see Ned Stark (complete with a head) leading Stark forces in the game.
THE MINIATURES There have been quite a few pictures that have shown off the miniatures for the game but having the chance to actually pick them up and inspect them was something else. All of the miniatures are incredible. They accurately depict the heroes of the series, as well as what I picture the armies to look like. The quality is fantastic and they hold a lot of detail. A Song of Ice & Fire author, George R.R. Martin himself has been involved with the sculpting process to ensure accuracy with his vision.
The miniatures are going to be a high-quality plastic, that CMON boasts will be rigid enough so that spears and banners aren’t…droopy. What’s more is that these are pre-assembled models, which are different than single piece plastics, and this allows for more dynamic posing. The other noteworthy thing is that the factions are being cast in colored plastic (at least for the starter set), so that anyone who purchases the starter set can start playing in the time it takes to take the models out of the box, exactly like a board game.
Additionally, while designers Eric Lang and Michael Shinall admitted the universe (and thus the game) are low fantasy, they’ve gone to great efforts to ensure that it doesn’t look like it’s just generic humans fighting other generic humans. Banners are prominent, each individual unit is uniquely sculpted to be immediately discernible at first glance, and the flavor of each unit is depicted dynamically within the miniatures.
The characters found in the game is really where the models shine. I played the Lannister side of the starter box, and I was blown away. Jamie Lannister looks exactly how you imagine he would. Even more impressive is the hulking stature of The Mountain. He stands easily 2 heads taller than the already impressively sized unit of “Mountain’s Men”, as well as being much broader in the shoulders. This attention to detail is sure to delight any fan of the books.
GAMEPLAY
The most interesting part of the gameplay for A Song of Ice & Fire is the fact that it does a great job of capturing the intrigue and power plays that occur off the field of battle, while simultaneously giving you the flavor of your army’s general. You have a deck of 15 cards and ensure that at the beginning of the turn, you always draw up to a maximum hand size of 3. This deck is made up of 10 cards specific to your faction and 5 cards specific to your leader. A Lannister army led by Jamie will have tactics cards that offer very different benefits than one led by The Mountain. It means that the same House faction can have very different styles of play, depending on their leader.
These tactics cards themselves have 2 different functions. The first is to discard a card in order to re-roll your initiative roll for the turn. This can be life-saving for turns where you ABSOLUTELY have to activate a unit first, before it is destroyed. The downside to doing this is that your opponent can then choose to discard a card and try to beat your new roll. There was a turn where I ended up discarding 2 of my 3 cards, while my opponent discarded all 3 in an attempt to go first, so there is definitely a possibility of playing your opponent to strip them of cards. The second use for the cards is to play them when an event on the battlefield triggers their activation. For example, one of my cards allowed me to play it after a unit of mine successfully passed a resolve test (not that I did during the demo. Damn dice.)
There is also an “intrigue board” (not its actual name, this is still one of those under development components) where a player can forego an “on the battlefield” activation to claim one of the 4 elements of intrigue. For the demo game, there was no direct impact on the battlefield for claiming these elements, but what makes them really, really important is that each card has one of the 4 symbols printed on it. If you have claimed that element of intrigue, playing a card immediately grants the additional bonus.
This game uses alternating activations so you either choose an intrigue element to claim, or resolve a single unit’s full activation before your opponent gets a chance to act. Each unit is in a movement tray as this is a ranked combat game. The rules for each unit are fully incorporated into a small, easy to read unit card. When a character is attached to a unit, you slide their character card above the unit card as each character comes with their own special rules for how they play.
Jamie Lannister, being a master duelist, can inflict an automatic wound on any unit he is fighting OR attempt to kill opposing character attachments. The combat effectiveness of a unit is based on the number of ranks it has remaining and a single model in the row still counts as a full rank for this purpose. The stat card has 3 different attack values for having a full unit, -1, or -2 ranks. Additionally, a unit’s resolve incurs a stacking -1 penalty for every missing rank. Attack values are a fixed rate, as well as armor saves.
Finally, movement in A Song of Ice & Fire is brilliant and easy. There was a quick reference card that listed all of the possible movement maneuvers a unit could make, as well as how to resolve them. This card was smaller than the unit card so your side of the board will still be small and organized. A unit can freely pivot 360 degrees so there is no worrying or quibbling about how much movement a change in facing takes up. Charging allows a free pivot, followed by the unit’s movement rate +D6 inches. If you contact, the charge is successful and then you line up the units either full on (preventing other units from joining) or half on, where the front corner of your unit is aligned with the middle of the opposing unit. Regardless of how your unit is contacting your opponent’s, your attack dice values are unchanged. This is purely a strategic decision that could allow you room to throw another unit into the combat or even attempt to make your opponent’s potential flanking counter charges a bit harder to successfully pull off. A unit that successfully charges automatically inflicts 2 hits, representing the momentum of the charge. A flank attack also inflicts 2 automatic hits and this bonus stacks with the charge bonus. When a Stark cavalry unit charged the flank of Jamie’s unit, the 4 automatic hits put me in a world of hurt.
If a unit takes casualties, they must pass a resolve test. My Lannister force, while well-equipped and compensated with Lannister gold, were definitely not loyal to the cause and as such, they had a comparatively low resolve score when compared to my Stark opponent, as the Starks are loyal and fighting for a cause they believe in. A failed resolve test removes the back most rank of the unit fully. When a cavalry unit charged the flank of Jamie’s unit, there was 1 model in the back rank. I failed the resolve test and the model was removed. The next activation, Jamie’s unit was charged in the front by another unit and after some poor armor saves, I lost 4 models which composed the entirety of the second rank. Because my unit was missing two ranks, my resolve score had a -2 modifier and I failed it (again). Because there was only the front rank left, that entire rank, including Jamie, was removed. The Kingslayer never got to swing his sword. Clearly, we were demoing the Battle of the Whispering Wood.
OVERALL IMPRESSIONS
A Song of Ice & Fire is an excellent game. Not only is it able to capture the feeling of the source material, it is also fun, fast and easy to play. Whether you are completely unfamiliar with tabletop games or are a veteran with a gaming shelf that your parents/significant other/offspring roll their eyes at (they just don’t get it), this game is fun, accessible, and characterful. The models are incredible and will paint easily with a couple of very basic techniques.
All in all, CMON has hit it out of the park with this game. The entire drive home from CMON Expo had me gushing about how I was going to paint the models, what noteworthy characters I hoped will be playable, when my favorite house is going to be released, etc. Any fan of the books should be excited to take their passion for Westeros and its rich mythology to the tabletop and play an incredibly fun, deep, and rewarding game.
WARHAMMER 8TH EDITION PLAYERS: REJOICE!
As someone who has played hundreds of hours of WHFB 8th edition, this is the game we’ve always wanted. Maneuvering units is vitally important to ensure you can swing a fight in your favor, but their movement isn’t nearly as clunky as it used to be. Maneuvering a unit to guard a flank and have its facing be appropriate to soak the charge is easy and tactically satisfying.
The resolve system is an absolute improvement over the “all or nothing” morale system that existed and horde units just aren’t a thing in this game. There is a lot of room to maneuver and terrain (the demo game we played was just an open field) is going to add a lot of depth. The added mobility of cavalry (they get to perform a free basic movement maneuver every time they activate), make them the terror of the tabletop, as they should be, but the resolve system, combined with alternating activations means that entire units don’t run away and panic your whole army. Sure, there is no Magic phase, but that just means you don’t have to watch your 600 point Greater Daemon vanish into the warp from a bad perils roll. I’ll take that trade any day.
So has anyone compiled what's likely to be in the starter set? From what I can tell, it looks like:
Starks: Robb Stark Jon Umber Greywind 12 Stark Swordsmen 12 Umber Berserkers 4 Stark Outriders Sansa Stark Catelyn Stark
Lannisters: Jaime Lannister Gregor Clegane 12 Lannister Swordsmen 12 Lannister Halberdiers 12 Mountain's Men Cersei Lannister Tyrion Lannister
Here's hoping the kickstarter's stretch goals are somewhat like Wrath of Kings, where backers got additional models for free (most starter sets went from 25-30 models to 40-50). Another unit or two for each side would be great.
I will stay sceptically positive on this one. I do like the renders of the minis, and the poses are dynamic and they look fun to paint.
The price will decide much, and I will need to see some gameplay videos (batreps or whatever you want to call it for this) before deciding on anything.
It will be interesting to see just how big the market is for this type of game; essentially a rank & file fantasy game, with the license throne in (hur hur, see what I did there! ). And how many players you have out there from 9th Age, KoW, those left in the duldrums after the departure of WHFB
Additionally, while designers Eric Lang and Michael Shinall admitted the universe (and thus the game) are low fantasy, they’ve gone to great efforts to ensure that it doesn’t look like it’s just generic humans fighting other generic humans.
I am a bit sad to hear this though. I was hoping for a White Walker faction, would be amazing. Also playing with dragons for Daenerys would also be great. I think it could still be great with just humans as long as they are unique and interesting, but some of the "high fantasy" elements should be in I think.
Well, I think "low fantasy" is when magical events and unnatural creatures intrude on a relatively realistic world - and that's what the Known World is. It's basically various medieval states with humans, and the magical elements are rare and exceptional.
So I don't think we can count dragons and white walkers out of the game yet. But I'd guess we'd see the Vale, Dorn, the Dothraki, the Free Cities, and the Riverlands sooner than later.
Details of the 5 different game modes (surprised at the number, was only expecting 1 or 2 really) -
War is a constantly shifting experience, with no two encounters coming out the same way. While destroying your enemies is key to most victories, rarely do armies take to the battlefield with that being their sole intent, and games of A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game (ASOIF:TMG) are no exception. Before setting up the battlefield, players choose one of five unique Game Modes to play, each drastically changing the manner in which they can achieve victory.
A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game - The Changing Face of War
The first Game Mode is A Game of Thrones, which has Objective Points placed across the battlefield. Each of these Objectives not only grant Victory Points at the end of each round, but also grant a powerful effect to the player controlling it. In this Game Mode, the Objectives are the only things that matter. Destroying enemy Units will assist you in securing Objectives (and, in fact, you get bonus Victory Points for destroying Units currently claiming said Objectives!), but in the end, it’s whomever can take-and-hold these points that determines the winner.
Our next Game Mode is A Clash of Kings: a siege-based battle that has one player taking on the role of Defender while their opponent leads an assault against their forces. In this Game Mode, the Defender decides on the initial terms of engagement and sets up battlefield terrain and defensive points at the start of the game. Their sole goal is to survive until the endgame. The Attacker, meanwhile, has replenishing forces at their disposal in order to destroy key structures guarded by the Defender, as well as a vastly larger deployment area to coordinate their assault.
Next, we have A Storm of Swords, arguably the bloodiest Game Mode. Players set out to destroy key enemy Units, but only a portion of each army is available at the start of the conflict. Across the battlefield lay Objective Points waiting to be claimed. By taking and holding these Objective Points, players can better secure arrival routes for their Units in reserve, allowing them to enter the battlefield at unexpected times and from unexpected places. Your opponent may think their Archers or support Units are safe, but your Cavalry arriving from their rear and wiping them out teaches them to not be so sure.
In A Feast for Crows, the psychological impact of war is pushed to the forefront. This Game Mode takes place on a battlefield littered with the corpses of the dead. Armies must strive for victory, all the while suffering the mental impact such a place imparts. Worse still, as the battle rages, the dead continue to pile up, only adding to the chaos. In this Game Mode, while death is almost a certainty, the battle is decided by those who keep their own troops composed and turn the horrors of the battlefield into a weapon to defeat their foes. Victory is achieved by the commander who can break their enemy, not outright kill them.
Finally, we have The Winds of Winter, which features each player taking to the battlefield with their own compliment of Secret Objectives. Objectives can range from assassination plots (aka killing specific enemies) to getting to specific points across the battlefield to performing certain attack formations, and even choice manipulation of the Tactics Board and Non-Combat actions. All manner and variety of objectives can (and will) appear. Of course, you simply can’t ignore your opponent, who is not only trying to accomplish their own goals, but is also probably trying to destroy your army as well!
There is one more aspect to talk about, however! And that is Scenario Play. This will be covered more in depth later, but as a small preface: Scenarios, whether they be historic battles taken directly from the bestselling A Song of Ice and Fire series of books, or special battles in their own right, are a variation of the above-listed Game Modes. Each adds their own special rules and modifications to the existing Game Modes to re-create the iconic battle it represents. What would have happened at the Battle of the Whispering Wood had Robb and Jaime met in direct combat? How could the Siege of Riverrun have played out differently? These situations and more can be explored in the various Game Modes and Scenarios offered in ASOIF:TMG from CMON and Dark Sword Miniatures, Inc.! The battle begins on July 25 at 3 PM EST when A Song of Ice and Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game launches on Kickstarter.
That Feast For Crows mode better supply us with plenty of dead bodies then, be they at least tokens (or preferably sculpted). That actually sounds kind of cool with the dead piling up and the psychological effect it has.
Of course once they start rising and the White Walkers start coming, that's when things will really get interesting!
That looks awesome! And wow, that's a whole other unit per side that I didn't expect. It'll bump the price of the base game up, but I suppose that's a benefit of pre-assembled miniatures (especially in a ranks & flanks game were the looks come from the units).
I hope stretch goals add more units from families, like the Kingsguard and Tyrell for the Lannisters, and Forresters and Tully for the Starks.
I would say with the licence, the marketing muscle of CMoN (and you know this will be a professionally run KS), as well as the names involved with the game I would have thought it will do pretty well.
I think a big factor will be whether, with the single piece miniatures and Eric Lang being involved, they manage to pull in some of the board game crowd (which is obviously that much bigger a market)
I don't know how big the 'ex-WHFB' crowd will be, if they will go for a rank and file fantasy wargame like this (have they all since moved on to KoW, Sigmar, 9th Age etc?)
If they get too pricey with the base pledge then they might as well not make it a Kickstarter. No property is too big to fail if their gaming company gets silly.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: That Feast For Crows mode better supply us with plenty of dead bodies then, be they at least tokens (or preferably sculpted). That actually sounds kind of cool with the dead piling up and the psychological effect it has.
Of course once they start rising and the White Walkers start coming, that's when things will really get interesting!
The intro video shows piles of bodies templates, it looks like the main game has card tokens/templates for the game types and some basic scenery.
I'm definitely interested in this BUT it will really depend on if friends pick this up, as 40k 8th has pretty much taken over.
As much as I like the franchise, the leaked rules are way too complicated for me, the complexity level of 40K 8th ed - or rather the lack of it! - is more my thing these days...
Maybe I will pledge and use some character minis for Black Plague.
AAN wrote: As much as I like the franchise, the leaked rules are way too complicated for me, the complexity level of 40K 8th ed - or rather the lack of it! - is more my thing these days...
Thats's interesting, because most of the critiscm I see leveled against this, is that it seems too simple.
Video showing contents of starter set and the five scenarios:
What's interesting is that, at around 1:08, two Stark units join and then move together. It would make running larger games pretty simple if units can just brigade-move together a la Warmaster.
They've improved a bit since - I've had issues with 3 KS including the complete mess made of Zombicide Season 3 shipping where all Irish backers got another Irish backers pledge not their own but in fairness they sorted them all (took about 6 weeks) and let me keep anything I hadn't ordered and received in error - but there has always been this underlying attitude of our way or tough luck.
I have now backed 7 CMON Kickstarters and very happy with how they have handled things. The main issue is slippage with shipping dates but as long as you go in expecting a 2 - 3 month delay then it's not an issue.
They were a bit rough around the edges during the first couple of campaign (Customer interaction was a big one which ended up with issue Panic mentioned above) but they have really improved with each campaign.
The two things I think may suffer here is that -
1st. CMON are supporting Retail stores a lot more than previously by limiting the product in the Kickstarter to only 2 factions with additional factions to be released directly to retail. A lot of the usual CMON backers really expect to get everything as part of the Kickstarter which wont be the case here. Mantic tried a similar thing although to a lesser extent with Walking Dead: All Out War and whilst there are still some backers who grumble about having to go to a retail store or order the limited direct to retail stock online it is worth the benefit to the local retailers.
2nd - Some CMON backers have started to feel entitlement that CMON should listen to there ideas and implement them to the campaign. This isn't unique to CMON campaigns, isn't always a bad thing and has seen some positive (and negative) results. This time around CMON have a restrictive licence and have to seek approval from the licence holder so no backer suggestions will be implemented during the campaign which will no doubt cause issue with some backers. For my sanity I will be avoiding the Kickstarter comments like it's the plague which is a shame as early Kickstarter comment pages were actually a lot of fun with good interaction with other backers and staff but have turned pretty toxic over the last few years.
I think that there is a big spot in the market for this game and that this campaign could easily be CMONs best by far if they have come up with a good initial bundle price and are reasonable with the unlocks but it also has the potential to go horribly wrong.
Finally! A Game of Thrones miniatures game! The fact it's a regimental based game makes me even more excited about it. Everything I've read so far looks good too, models look good, rules simple and effective, different ways to play (and all named after a book title which is cool).
Like others have said, I am worried about the base pledge. I'd need to find someone to play with and am not going to pledge my hard earned cash if I don't think I'd even get to use the game. Someone also mentioned the ex-WHFB crowd, sadly all those in my area (myself exluded ) have fully moved on to AoS, so I'm not sure many would go for this. Seen a few people in the FLGS playing the Game of Thrones card/board game, so hopefully those guys could be persuaded to pick up some miniatures.
alleus wrote:
Additionally, while designers Eric Lang and Michael Shinall admitted the universe (and thus the game) are low fantasy, they’ve gone to great efforts to ensure that it doesn’t look like it’s just generic humans fighting other generic humans.
I am a bit sad to hear this though. I was hoping for a White Walker faction, would be amazing. Also playing with dragons for Daenerys would also be great. I think it could still be great with just humans as long as they are unique and interesting, but some of the "high fantasy" elements should be in I think.
I'd be very surprised if they didn't do the Army of the Dead at some point. Everyone will want White Walker models!
If you've got friends that have abandoned ranks and flanks for AoS's blobs and freedom of movement, then the 12-man infantry and 4-man cavalry units in the base box set are perfect for Dragon Rampant and Lion Rampant.
One issue with CMON having so much retail content is that their products are extremely poorly distributed (except for their biggest hits) and expensive at retail in the UK. If you're buying into a system rather than getting what you want up front, I can see this being prohibitively expensive in the UK, which makes me wary of backing something that may end up having no playerbase here.
I agree that CMON distribution is awful in the UK but I am hoping that as they are focusing more on a retail distribution model this time around that they are putting in the effort to actually get the items into stores worldwide.
They've been doing retail versions of their KickStarter pledges, which are the same content with all the stretch goals (and the same relatively high KS price). Maybe if you got a group to order through your FLGS rather than pledge on KS it would encourage them to continue to carry the line in the future?
It isn't that stores don't want to carry the items over here it's just that the distribution is so bad that items arrive months after release, if they arrive at all. I am hoping that as they are pushing Organised competitive events that they can get the distribution sorted.
CMoN don't post stretch goals until funded, they will have set the stretch goal amounts pre KS and they don't fiddle around with them based on how KS funding goes, this has been seen in previous Zombicide KS where multiple SGs have been unlocked before they could post them and all were at set intervals and amounts.
$150 is pricey and it will need a good bit more to justify the cost as there will be a bit of sticker shock this early on.
DaveC wrote: CMoN don't post stretch goals until funded, they will have set the stretch goal amounts pre KS and they don't fiddle around with them based on how KS funding goes, this has been seen in previous Zombicide KS where multiple SGs have been unlocked before they could post them and all were at set intervals and amounts.
$150 is pricey and it will need a good bit more to justify the cost as there will be a bit of sticker shock this early on.
Thanks for the info. First time backing a CMON project, so stuff like this is useful. Looks like funding will come quickly.
The rulebook talks about the North, the Lannisters, Stannis Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, and Balon Greyjoy in the introduction, so that's my bet on the starting factions.
Oh, and the current only kickstarter exclusive is GRRM as a joke-model. Silly, but alright.
They have previously said that the Kickstarter will be strictly limited to Stark vs Lannister with a second starter (presumably Baratheon vs Greyjoy) as a retail exclusive 3 months after the first starter hits retail. There is a release schedule floating around detailing the type of releases over the first few months.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As they are looking to release this is a competitive game I think any Kickstarter exclusive will be a not serious like the GRRM or alternate sculpts.
Alright, the Hound, Maege, and alternate generic Lannister and Stark leaders have been unlocked. Less enthused about the plastic tokens, since I can see MDF tokens following the game's release pretty quickly.
Am in on the pledge for this, will be interesting to see how quickly it picks up speed but good to see a few stretch goals unlocked already.
One of the things I'm liking the look of are the variety in the basic rank and file sculpts. One of my fears was that we would have WHFB 6th edition style single pose miniatures. Just having a little bit of variety between each really does look much better.
Sqorgar wrote: Even in his model, he still isn't writing and the page is blank.
They could really do with adding a squad for each side via stretch goal even if over a couple of stretch goals and it's an already existing unit as an extra 22 - 24 models would really help with value for money.
One of the things I'm liking the look of are the variety in the basic rank and file sculpts. One of my fears was that we would have WHFB 6th edition style single pose miniatures. Just having a little bit of variety between each really does look much.
One of the designers stated that the 12 man units are made up of 1 bannerman and 11 infantry with 3 poses. All cavalry are going to have individual sculpts.
Again, not super happy that the next stretch goals are alternate versions of Umber and the Mountain. That's just wasted plastic.
I'm OK with the alt. Mountain as I'm not mad about the helmeted version but alt. sculpts for heroes is a waste really as you can only field one of them an extra rank and file pose would have been a better use of the resource
Cool detail that got clarified about Howland. He's a commander, and so will add his cards to the tactics deck. But he's a NCU, so he'll be acting off the table on the tactics board.
2 new sculpts of a non-named character captain (1 for each faction) - KS exclusive
2 new sculpts of an existing named combat character (1 for each faction) KS exclusive
2 new non-combat characters (1 for each faction)
1 new combat / non-combat mercenary commander.
Tokens
Hopefully next few stretch goals add an additional unit to each side.
Out of curiosity, I wonder if Mads Mikkleson was someone the show runners were after for the role of Bolton?
Just absolute speculation on my part!
Would have been great, although thought the guy that played him did a fine job.
Looks like Jonathan Pryce is next in line, just got past that threshold at the time of writing
Love the way they are bringing in the extra characters to help influence the battle, it's a pretty good idea for an extra dimension.
And the man himself, true-scale George RR Martin
We've mentioned before that A Song of Ice & Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game is a project that runs under the direct supervision of George R. R. Martin and Dark Sword Miniatures to ensure that the game delivers what fans have been envisioning for years, and the entire crew was pretty pleased when as met to discuss progress of the project.
Spoiler:
CMON's David Doust with George R. R. Martin and Raya Golden
David Doust, George R. R. Martin and Jim Ludwig, from Dark Sword Miniatures
Just seen that the card for the high sparrow mentions two new unit types - Poor Fellows & Warrior's Sons. I expect we all see at least one of those during the campaign but perhaps as an add on.
Aeneades wrote: Just seen that the card for the high sparrow mentions two new unit types - Poor Fellows & Warrior's Sons. I expect we all see at least one of those during the campaign but perhaps as an add on.
Interesting both are part of the Faith Militant so that might be a sub faction within the Lannister army. The Warrior Sons being the Knights and the Poor Fellows the footmen (or women as either gender could join)
On EU product availability, CMON are apparently in the pr did of establishing a UK hub to improve distribution to European stores which will be a real improvement.
Aeneades wrote: On EU product availability, CMON are apparently in the pr did of establishing a UK hub to improve distribution to European stores which will be a real improvement.
Slightly ironic timing, with Brexit around the corner. The UK will no longer be part of the EU, who knows what the arrangement will be? I would say a safe bet for EU distribution would be to site the hub in an EU country. Don't they usually set up a shipping hub in Germany?
Just looking at the community details of backers on prior projects the UK tends to be their biggest market outside the US so it probably makes sense to have a retail distribution presence there even with Brexit. AFAIK there are no distributors here (Ireland) and what few game stores we have rely on the UK distributors for stock.
The KS shipping hub for the EU hasn't been in Germany for a few projects now, Gameqeust in the UK have been doing it more recently.
They need to sort out EU/UK retail distribution save for the really popular stuff like Zombicide it's really hard to get a lot of their stuff in the EU and a lot of EU backers have to order everything from the KS to ensure they get it I know I do if there was a better retail presence I'd be more likely to buy at an FLGS or an EU online retailer ordering from the US is expensive with shipping and customs charges.
Oddly though, WHFB died even with HIPS plastic, and if Kings of War had taken better advantage of the opportunity, it could have succeeded with PVC, I think.
I'm watching this with interest, as due to the above I have no ranked fantasy game atm... but as noted the offerings seem underwhelming so far.
I would say that the more recent CMON and Mantic pvc models are approaching HIPS plastic quality level. I also believe that the thinner parts of these models such as the weapons will be made from a harder plastic to avoid warping.
Next stretch goals announced. First is more tokens which we have already past and 2nd is a Kickstarter exclusive sculpt of a Stark unit leader. The regular sculpt will not actually be part of the kickstarterbut retail exclusive so it's advance access to the models rules as well.
I think PVC is a bad move. One of the main driving forces behind a wargame is it's miniature range. I can't see this being widely adopted by the wargame scene and the boardgame scene will find it too expensive and not like the fact it requires more elements to play (4x4 board, plenty of terrain).
It'll sell to the GoT crowd but I cant see this going anywhere sadly.
I guess you didn't touch much recent board game plastics? They are incredible. The detail is ALMOST as good as proper resin or metal casting. They're not perfect, but as close as you need to be for a board game that costs a fraction of a "proper" Fantasy army.
No seriously, I do have Blood Rage and Dark Souls and wow are the minis impressive.
RoninXiC wrote: I guess you didn't touch much recent board game plastics? They are incredible. The detail is ALMOST as good as proper resin or metal casting. They're not perfect, but as close as you need to be for a board game that costs a fraction of a "proper" Fantasy army.
No seriously, I do have Blood Rage and Dark Souls and wow are the minis impressive.
I agree. And the ones of Zombiecide: Blackplague are of the same detail level. Not perfect but more than acceptable for a game based on large units with lots of troops.
RoninXiC wrote: I guess you didn't touch much recent board game plastics? They are incredible. The detail is ALMOST as good as proper resin or metal casting. They're not perfect, but as close as you need to be for a board game that costs a fraction of a "proper" Fantasy army.
No seriously, I do have Blood Rage and Dark Souls and wow are the minis impressive.
I agree. And the ones of Zombiecide: Blackplague are of the same detail level. Not perfect but more than acceptable for a game based on large units with lots of troops.
I have Blood Rage, Zombicide Black Plague and Conan. Backed them all on Kickstarter.
They're good mini's - for a boardgame not a wargame. You have to offer something better to stand out in wargaming as there's a number of companies offering better quality miniatures at a similar price point.
This is board game level components at wargaming prices.
I would predict that by KS end we will probably have a fairly substantial pile of minis included with the base pledge level, which is something that has to be factored in.
infinite_array wrote: The miniatures are going to be the same level of quality and the same material as Wrath of Kings, which are fantastic.
How do Wrath of Kings minis compare to the latest board games - Zombicide: BP, Conan, Walking Dead etc? If just like those games I would be satisfied, the quality of them is perfectly fine. But, if they are better then that's all the better!
I'm also feeling Meh about the whole thing, and I love GOT. I dunno why, maybe it's just cuz it's men vs men and I like monsters and stuff in my wargames. I think if they did white walkers vs men I would have been all over it but it seems like they want to focus on the mortal stuff.
I like the look of the minis a lot. The Lannister footsoldiers, in particular, look superb -- like slightly fantasy-ified version of War of the Roses era heavy foot.
I'm confident in CMON PVC minis (Blood Rage ones were astonishingly good). They've been consistently higher quality than Reaper Bones, and at the price of under $1.50 a mini, probably lower once stretch goals happen, this is probably a good deal on minis alone.
And, I'm super-confident of Eric Lang as the designer. He just keeps getting better. Very excited to see what he will do with an out-and-out tabletop wargame.
Wow. If they fund up to 735K and that new unit comes in, that is only $1.20 per miniature. That's pretty sweet. Hopefully once the Kickstarter is done there will be over 150 minis. Would love to see more units.
If it hits 160 minis I'll have to get in on this one.
I really like those Lannister troops. I think I may wind up waiting for this to hit retail though since those Lannisters are really all I'm interested in. Hopefully the game sees decent distribution.
Necros wrote: I'm also feeling Meh about the whole thing, and I love GOT. I dunno why, maybe it's just cuz it's men vs men and I like monsters and stuff in my wargames. I think if they did white walkers vs men I would have been all over it but it seems like they want to focus on the mortal stuff.
Ultimately, the battles aren't really what the series is about and bend more towards historicals than anything fantasy. It's a series that's mostly about the politics, which is why the board game is such a natural fit.
I'm sure White Walkers will happen eventually, but probably not until more has happened with them in the show. I do generally agree this would be more exciting if it pulled in more fantastical elements like Dany's forces and the White Walkers though.
Times have changed. PVC miniatures may not have been suitable for wargames before, but then Studio McVey and CMON figured out how to make high detail pieces for Blood Rage and those days are over. Blood Rage miniatures are absolutely at least as good as the plastics GW put out in the 90s and 2000s. Whether its the right game for any particular gamer or not, the quality of the minis is no longer a concern.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I like the look of the minis a lot. The Lannister footsoldiers, in particular, look superb -- like slightly fantasy-ified version of War of the Roses era heavy foot.
I'm confident in CMON PVC minis (Blood Rage ones were astonishingly good). They've been consistently higher quality than Reaper Bones, and at the price of under $1.50 a mini, probably lower once stretch goals happen, this is probably a good deal on minis alone.
And, I'm super-confident of Eric Lang as the designer. He just keeps getting better. Very excited to see what he will do with an out-and-out tabletop wargame.
I guess that means I'm in!
Feel exactly the same way, especially the WoTR comment. Possibly the 'psuedo-historical' feel to this (and being a massive historicals fan) that maybe gives this such an appeal to me!
Some concept art with the latest update, is pretty cool.
Darkjim wrote: I was absolutely not going to get on this, but ... damn.
The infectious enthusiasm of some of you isn't helping at all.
Look at the 24 minute video for the game-play.
If it hits 150-160 minis it will be worth it for that alone, but the game play looks really interesting as well.
I find the behind the scenes intrigue options of the Non-Combat characters pretty cool.
frankelee wrote: Times have changed. PVC miniatures may not have been suitable for wargames before, but then Studio McVey and CMON figured out how to make high detail pieces for Blood Rage and those days are over. Blood Rage miniatures are absolutely at least as good as the plastics GW put out in the 90s and 2000s. Whether its the right game for any particular gamer or not, the quality of the minis is no longer a concern.
I agree on the quality, but what about sculpt variety (and having / not having multiple part options)? I loved that dog unit at first, then realized there's 2 poses for 8 dogs... so 4 repeats of each. Ugh! Is it really worth putting in the time to paint all those exact duplicates... for everything mentioned so far, people just use the colored plastic normally, and it seems likely to be that way here.
So I'm torn... but leaning towards it's not a fit for me.
PurpleEcho wrote: They're good mini's - for a boardgame not a wargame. You have to offer something better to stand out in wargaming as there's a number of companies offering better quality miniatures at a similar price point.
Which ones? I only know of Kings of War being less expensive. TIA!
Mr Morden wrote:SOme nice minis - but will wait for a game with minis based on the show and/or the inevitable expansion with Dany, Dragons and the Unsullied.
I wonder if a game with actor likenesses is very likely? Can see things suddenly become more expensive if you're getting sculpts of Sean Bean, Jonathan Pryce, Dianna Rigg etc. (although would definitely get one if they did the latter! )
Nostromodamus wrote:
I'm sure they'll drown us in add-ons if need be.
Interestingly, for those that aren't backers the first optional add-ons have appeared in the form of dice sets (Stark and Lanister)
So wouldn't be surprised if we started to see a number more coming through soon once the initial batch of people discovering the KS starts to slow down.
PurpleEcho wrote: You have to offer something better to stand out in wargaming as there's a number of companies offering better quality miniatures at a similar price point.
Pacific wrote: I wonder if a game with actor likenesses is very likely? Can see things suddenly become more expensive if you're getting sculpts of Sean Bean, Jonathan Pryce, Dianna Rigg etc. (although would definitely get one if they did the latter! )
Not just expensive, but non-existent. Actor likenesses can require fees on top of the IP. That's why so many Ghostbusters toys, games, and cartoons have characters who do not look like the original actors.
Also, a product based on the television shows vs. the original source material (eg. books) can have entirely different licensing agreements. That's why Mantic could make a miniatures game based on the Walking Dead comic, but not the television show, which Cryptozoic had rights to (?).
Then there's licensing of what *type* of product you can make, based on the IP. Palladium's Robotech license, I think, only allows them to make RPG material (?) so they kept calling what was obviously a miniatures game as a roleplaying product, "Robotech RPG Tactics".
Bolton Bastard's Girls will retail for $35 so it looks that's the retail price for a 12 mini unit hopefully any KS add ons will have a bit of a discount.
A Hound Will Die For You, But Never Lie To You Valar Dohaeris, bannermen!
Boosted by our recent offer of Custom Dice Optional Buys, we've just hit the $655k mark, unlocking the Packmaster along with 3 Dog miniatures, which are part of the Bolton Bastard's Girls unit!
As a reference, when the Bolton Bastard's Girls is fully unlocked, backers will get a Unit Box of Estimated Retail Price of $35!
We also took a picture of the resins for this unit to show you how awesome it looks on its Infantry Movement Tray!
Resin shot of the unit of Bolton Bastard's Girls in the Infantry Tray
As a reminder, here are the next 2 Stretch Goals that we announced:
Having the archers follow the dogs into melee seems like a weird compromise, surely they'd never do that. It'd probably be more thematic to make the dogs a kind of ranged attack in themselves, like firing missiles - send a load of dogs in, remove the dogs, and do an amount of attacks on the target. Regardless, a new unit, finally!
Reading the background, believe the archers are intended to wound or otherwise incapacitate the enemy. Then the dogs move in to finish them off. So kind of like hunting I guess, but with people(!)
Have no idea how this would work in the context of the game though..
The archers would stay at range and shoot at the enemy to disrupt them, and then send in the dogs. That's the doctrine that's been used down history for dogs. Having bow-equipped men follow the dogs into the melee doesn't make sense
Well, archers in the Wars of the Roses (a big inspiration for the books) were expected to be capable melee combatants as well as being obvious effective at range. This is clearly not quite the same situation -- the unit is based on a group in the books who are hunters, if, if humans, rather than line troops. But, assuming that the archers do at least still get to shoot before releasing the dogs, it does make more sense for them to follow the dogs in than to either (a) just sit around and wait or (b) shoot into melee and risk hitting the dogs. This feels particularly right given their transposition into war -- they might be happy to let the dogs do their work if this is just a "hunt", but against armed and armoured enemies, they need to support the dogs, surely.
Pacific wrote: Reading the background, believe the archers are intended to wound or otherwise incapacitate the enemy. Then the dogs move in to finish them off. So kind of like hunting I guess, but with people(!)
Have no idea how this would work in the context of the game though..
Well, check out the rules:
The archers can shoot up to 12" away and hit on a 3+. Any rolls of 1 on Defense Saves gives the unit they're shooting at a Vulnerable token. Then the unit gets a free charge against the target. You can then use the Vulnerable token to force the opponent to reroll any Defense Saves from the dogs' attacks.
Thanks infinite_array I hadn't seen that, does sound like it supports the blurb.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Well, archers in the Wars of the Roses (a big inspiration for the books) were expected to be capable melee combatants as well as being obvious effective at range.
Always quite liked it when you had criticism leveled at GRRM for the books being unnecessarily gruesome in their depiction of warring powerful families, and his answer has always been 'open a history book'. There is that in there, and worse (perhaps just about stopping short of Cercei's actions involving large quantities of explosives!)
But yes there are some interesting (but quite horrible when you think about it, actually) accounts of archers fighting the French men-at-arms at Agincourt, and heading in with chisels/knives and hammers when their plate-armoured opponents were incapacitated..
Decent price at $17, a citadel wood is €30 OK it's made from HIPS but still it's nearly twice the price and no hedges (and the leaves are forever falling off) . A few of these and Terraincrate will give me a nice battlefield.
Terrain is only available during the KS it won't go to retail.
Yes like you say this won't be such a thing for the experienced wargamer who probably has a ton of terrain in their collection already.
But, that's not a bad price for what you get there and could see it looking pretty good if you covered it in lots of grasses and foliage for the trees.
I like the hedges in the Z: Green Horde ks more but I'm glad to see them including terrain for newbies who may not have any terrain or the desire to DIY some. I'm disappointed that the terrain in the starter is just flat templates instead of 3D card terrain. Even simple card terrain looks better with trees that are actually taller than the models instead of flat green circles.
PurpleEcho wrote: You have to offer something better to stand out in wargaming as there's a number of companies offering better quality miniatures at a similar price point.
Who?
I await the tide of names anxiously...
~Eric
Warlord Games
Perry Miniatures
Victrix
Fireforge
Gripping Beast
And actually, those are much less expensive than $1.50 per miniature. And that's only in the starter box. That expansion box with 12 miniatures (8 of them dogs, and only 4 unique sculpts) for $35 retail is ridiculous. When you can get more than 40 multi-part plastic miniatures for that price and not have any duplicates. I don't see how this is going to compete with any real miniatures games, except for the strength of the IP.
LunarSol wrote: I'd like to know the dimensions on the tree template. It's easy to make stuff on the cheap, but that plastic would be nice for durability.
From CMON -
Rough dimensions for the pieces in the Woodland Terrain Set are:
Trees Set: 24 x 13 cm, 12 cm tall; Imperial: 9.4 x 5 inches, 4.7 inches tall
Hedge: 15 x 6.5 cm, 2.2 cm tall; Imperial: 5.9 x 2.5 inches, 0.8 inch tall
I've upped my pledge for a couple of woods and hedges, where they won't be available outside of the KS. They're going to need some more optional buys, I don't think this is really bringing in huge numbers of people.
Of these only Perry and Fireforge have medieval ranges and neither contains any "fantasy" elements. From what I've seen around the 'net most people doing DIY ASoIaF are using Perry.
Bull0 wrote: I've upped my pledge for a couple of woods and hedges, where they won't be available outside of the KS.
Well, until Mantic decides to make more terrain. (:
I figure removable trees are useful when the miniatures are in the woods.
@Albino: Thanks.
@Everyone: Keep 'em coming. I'm shopping around for mini's around $.75 each, including shipping (cf. Reaper Bones KS and Mantic armies on eBay w/ flash sale).
PurpleEcho wrote: You have to offer something better to stand out in wargaming as there's a number of companies offering better quality miniatures at a similar price point.
Who?
I await the tide of names anxiously...
~Eric
Warlord Games
Perry Miniatures
Victrix
Fireforge
Gripping Beast
And actually, those are much less expensive than $1.50 per miniature. And that's only in the starter box. That expansion box with 12 miniatures (8 of them dogs, and only 4 unique sculpts) for $35 retail is ridiculous. When you can get more than 40 multi-part plastic miniatures for that price and not have any duplicates. I don't see how this is going to compete with any real miniatures games, except for the strength of the IP.
The only names you have listed that are on par with Blood Rage and Wrath of King's figures are Perry Miniatures and Victrix. And I'd argue that figure to figure even those aren't as good. The rest of what you have listed are adequate at best.
I agree with you that there could be more variety in sculpts for the GoT game, and that the value could be better. I'm betting that both will be addressed in stretch goals though.
At first I asked, "Why on Earth would you not have additional troops available as add-ons - just dice and trees?" What if I wanted more basic troops, like Stark Bannermen or Lannister Guards, etc.
But, then it dawned on me... If you want to bolster your force, you are going to have to pay retail on those, boys...
If they let me bid $1 and make the troop units available to purchase before the end of the KS, then I'm in.
Bull0 wrote: I've upped my pledge for a couple of woods and hedges, where they won't be available outside of the KS. They're going to need some more optional buys, I don't think this is really bringing in huge numbers of people.
It's still ticking along quite steadily (moving towards $700k mark at time of writing), but agree it could do with a faction expansion or something like that.
Hopefully it will get beyond $735k soon and then we can move on from the sodding dogs!
) have fully moved on to 
