Should first turn charges be allowed?

There used to be a rule preventing this, and I have heard a ton of different opinions on this subject, and was curious on Dakka's opinion.

(Note: I have no opinion, just curious what everyone things)

Very few things get a first turn charge

There are still rules out there that prevent the old method of first turn charging, but if you have a unit that can move 12" (maybe get a boost that lets you run and charge in the psy phase) and make that 12" charge roll you deserve it.

If you have a unit that can move 12", and a charge roll of 12", they still cannot charge, due to deployment always being more than 24" apart. If you are using proper measurement and deployment, that can never happen.

 Verviedi wrote:
If you have a unit that can move 12", and a charge roll of 12", they still cannot charge, due to deployment always being more than 24" apart. If you are using proper measurement and deployment, that can never happen.

On the basis you are going first, but if the opponent uses scout move or infritrate, they can..

But yeah It is rare to get a first turn charge, unless your opponent puts themselves in a place to let it happened in which case it is their fault (or your own)

Well there are things like the SW Deathpack (can move 12", then run and charge with fleet) that can consistently charge turn 1 if your opponent lines up on the edge of the deployment zone.

Also genestealer cults with the infiltrate + first turn charge if you roll a 6.

There are other ways as well, but those are the two most common that come to mind. It's not an overly rare thing nowadays.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
There are other ways as well, but those are the two most common that come to mind. It's not an overly rare thing nowadays.

Well when you consider the number of possible Factions, Detachments and Formations that do not have this option compared to the ones that do it is rare.

No first turn charge, but if you are going second, and player one scout moves enough or infiltrates, you can assault them.
So it is more of "You can assault turn 1.5 if parameters are met"

It should be hard to line up, and risky, but allowed.

We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.
There is a whole bunch of uncontrollable elements to pulling them off. Charge range is random, terrain can drop initiative, overwatch is a thing and that's just with normal assaults.
Then you start relying on getting psychic powers, getting them off, not mishapping with DS, not scattering too far,disordered charges, random run distance... You get the point.
AND you need certain formations and so on.

The only thing I have a problem with is that there are some pretty big differences between units that can do this.
Some get disorderd charges, others not. Othera get reliable deepstriking, most do not.
There is nothing wrong with the idea, but balance is an issue as always with GW.

So what have you been facing that has made you annoyed enough at 1st turn charges to make you post anyway?

Your tactics may be more of an issue then the ability to do it

First turn charges are fine. They're already pretty limited in how easy they are to get. They require you to either be going 2nd OR for your opponent to have infiltrators or scout moves.

Especially given the strength of shooting, assault needs all the help it can get. Particularly on some of the codices that are very heavily assault focused like Orks, Nids, and BAs. They need more options for turn 1 or 2 charges.

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

You can shoot on the first turn, why should charges be forbidden?

Charges tend to be more devastating, you can multi charge and then stay locked in combat to avoid shooting.

It's an inevitable progression when they made firepower as cheap and insanely powerful as it is now. 40k has become a game of "obliterate the other side by going first." It's not even MAD, because the first strike usually leaves the other side reeling and incapable of retaliating. Then throw Interceptor and Alpha Strike armies into the mix, and you've got a game where two dice rolls has a utterly disproportionate effect on the game, specifically who decides to set up first and Seize the Initiative.

Assault is the strongest form of combat in 40K.
This is usually mitigated by the time it takes to get to Assault.

6th and 7th were dominated by shooting because there was enough shooting to deal with T3 charges, whereas T2 charges had to be mitigated with carefully managed roadbumps and the like.

The issue with T1 charges is that they can't really be cancelled by "enough" shooting, because that would mean tabled in 1.5 turns.

Electro Displacement Deathstar has been ruled to be so crazy overpowered that many competitive tournaments just don't allow it. It's currently the game-breaking build in 40K, only mitigated by these tournament house rules.

Genestealer Cult is apparently manageable, I don't really know why or how, but if it's manageable it's hardly a problem.

morgoth wrote:
Assault is the strongest form of combat in 40K.
This is usually mitigated by the time it takes to get to Assault.

6th and 7th were dominated by shooting because there was enough shooting to deal with T3 charges, whereas T2 charges had to be mitigated with carefully managed roadbumps and the like.

The issue with T1 charges is that they can't really be cancelled by "enough" shooting, because that would mean tabled in 1.5 turns.

Electro Displacement Deathstar has been ruled to be so crazy overpowered that many competitive tournaments just don't allow it. It's currently the game-breaking build in 40K, only mitigated by these tournament house rules.

Genestealer Cult is apparently manageable, I don't really know why or how, but if it's manageable it's hardly a problem.

There is a difference in having a DS charge turn 1 than a couple 5-10man S3/T3 units with a couple pieces of average wargear.

Corsairs also can do this and ITC put a stop to that too. B.c they can DS it also.

Turn 1 charges are fine for units that are meant to be like that, I would LOVE to see Hormagants be able to do this.

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

In the current competative shooty meta, yes. In the best interest of the game as a whole, no.

why shouldn't it be allowed? if you're chraging in the first turn you're utilizing a specific unit designed for high speed against an enemy who, let's face it, screwed up on deployment. also some armies deopend on melee for their damage. disallowing it is as silly as disallowing shooting in turn 1 because some armies are short ranged.

The only rule I can think of that ever disallowed first turn charges was if you scoute or infiltrated.

For some reason a LOT of people thought that meant no first turn charges. If you move forward, or deploy in the center of the table, I am going to punch those units in the face...

Why should you get to move into rapid fire range or drop pod into my back line and somehow be immune to a swamping tide of Orks?

KDK with allied CSM world eaters I believe.

CSM lord on bike with relic adding 3" to movement running and charges.

Bloodcrushers with banner of blood.

15" move
D6 + 9" charge with fleet.

 rawne2510 wrote:
KDK with allied CSM world eaters I believe.

CSM lord on bike with relic adding 3" to movement running and charges.

Bloodcrushers with banner of blood.

15" move
D6 + 9" charge with fleet.

Don't even need the KDK to do it. Take a World Eaters Butcherhorde, run a Warband with Bikes (or 20 Raptors) and a juggerlord with the 3" relic. 2D6" pre-game move, 15" normal move, 2D6+3" assault move with rerolls. That's 22-42" in the first turn.

And you know what? I'm totally fine with it. Shooting armies had it coming

I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

The possibility to charge an enemy unit in turn one due to long movement and lucky charge rolls yes, but charging when arriving in deep strike should not be allowed, no units or formations should have that bonus.

If the enemy is not far away after deployment I don't see a possible reason that doesn't allow a fast unit to charge.

Maybe but with KDK it is 25-30"

Where the butcherhorde may scare people into castling up and see how the dice rolls there is a possibility to fail even if they are on their deployment line.

KDK can´t fail a charge against opponent that sits on the line. and the KDK will have solid back ups to this move close behind. Not sure how much more a butcherhorde has following up after.

As a Guard player, no. First turn charges would only invalidate y army even further.

the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Shadow Strike Kill Team within raven guard detachment.

Any marine army with skyhammer formation.

 master of ordinance wrote:
As a Guard player, no. First turn charges would only invalidate y army even further.

You're quite the stubborn complainer.
In case you didn't know, your army is the only one which can effectively and cheaply protect itself against first turn charges.

Hell, most armies would be afraid of charging fearless AM blobs.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

Not really no, you have to be within 7" of a dying unit to get one soulburst action.

In other words, yes the opponent of an Ynnari player could give him a T1 charge, like anyone can give anyone a T1 charge thanks to scouting or just dumbly moving forward.

Unless you're speaking of that one "give a soulburst action" psychic power?

morgoth wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

Not really no, you have to be within 7" of a dying unit to get one soulburst action.

In other words, yes the opponent of an Ynnari player could give him a T1 charge, like anyone can give anyone a T1 charge thanks to scouting or just dumbly moving forward.

Unless you're speaking of that one "give a soulburst action" psychic power?

You have Psyhic that gives a soulburst action.

I feel like T1 charges are good for the game as a whole, so long as only certain armies can do them and that they are difficult to pull off. GSC Ambush embodies this.
Also, most armies need a way to limit the damage (which most do, but deploying farther back or placing chaff units in front).

Deathstars, however, are bad for the game and should not get T1 charges.

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

It's a random chance to get the spell in the first place, then you need to successfully cast it and have it NOT be denied. And after all that you STILL have to deal with terrain, overwatch and charge distances before you start rolling to hit.
On top of that, you need not only the unit you want to charge with, you also need a psyker and a second unit to switch with. and that's like bare minimum.

Compare that to shooting: You just start shooting, period. You know what you can also do with shooting? Hit flying units. Good luck charging a flying circus.
There's another issue with electro discplacement though. And that's just psychic powers in general.
Thanks to random generation, there is WAY to big a disparity between powers. You might get some gamebreaking power like invisibility, or you might get a wet noodle.
That part of the balancing I mentioned that is an issue.

Imho, effects like displacement or assault from deepstrike that almost auto grant assaults (assuming you manage to jump through all the initial hoops) are still fine, but should be disordered charges.
I mean look at WE, they have a very high chance off getting off T1 charges, but it's still hard to get the assaults you want as opposed to charging whatever happens to be close enough. Never mind with the unit of your choice.
And even then it's still not easy as players learn to deploy all the way back and it REALLY relies on getting T1, which is by no means guaranteed either. Fail that and you can pick up models by the dozen.

 Roknar wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

It's a random chance to get the spell in the first place, then you need to successfully cast it and have it NOT be denied. And after all that you STILL have to deal with terrain, overwatch and charge distances before you start rolling to hit.
On top of that, you need not only the unit you want to charge with, you also need a psyker and a second unit to switch with. and that's like bare minimum.

Compare that to shooting: You just start shooting, period. You know what you can also do with shooting? Hit flying units. Good luck charging a flying circus.
There's another issue with electro discplacement though. And that's just psychic powers in general.
Thanks to random generation, there is WAY to big a disparity between powers. You might get some gamebreaking power like invisibility, or you might get a wet noodle.
That part of the balancing I mentioned that is an issue.

Imho, effects like displacement or assault from deepstrike that almost auto grant assaults (assuming you manage to jump through all the initial hoops) are still fine, but should be disordered charges.
I mean look at WE, they have a very high chance off getting off T1 charges, but it's still hard to get the assaults you want as opposed to charging whatever happens to be close enough. Never mind with the unit of your choice.
And even then it's still not easy as players learn to deploy all the way back and it REALLY relies on getting T1, which is by no means guaranteed either. Fail that and you can pick up models by the dozen.

Yeah but you have redundancies with multi psykers and formation to make sure you get it, cast it and not be denied (If you are doing this its your most important spell so you will use the 2+ to cast and use extra dice).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

KDK Fist Of Khorne formation specifically allows a turn 1 charge from deep strike, but you are paying around 600 points for the privelege.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

KDK Fist Of Khorne formation specifically allows a turn 1 charge from deep strike, but you are paying around 600 points for the privelege.

As can the Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force:

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

It should only be allowed if your opponent moved in close for you. You shouldn't move 2+ feet in one turn on top of shooting and charging.

All of you pimping the electrodisplacement assault: look at how many points you have poured into getting ofr a SINGLE ASSAULT. It's crazy. Also, if you think your opponent has a good chance of pulling this off, DEPLOY ACCORDINGLY.

Conversely, unless the terrain gods have blessed me with LOS-blocking terrain, I can't counter deploy against shooting.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

Martel732 wrote:
All of you pimping the electrodisplacement assault: look at how many points you have poured into getting ofr a SINGLE ASSAULT. It's crazy. Also, if you think your opponent has a good chance of pulling this off, DEPLOY ACCORDINGLY.

Conversely, unless the terrain gods have blessed me with LOS-blocking terrain, I can't counter deploy against shooting.

This. And harnessing displacement on a 2+ is something only a single formation in the game can do. Everybody else is rocking their 4+.
That not an issue with first turn assaults. That's a balance issue in general.
And then it still goes back to what Martel said. Now you have several psykers, including a special char, as well as two units in order to charge ONE unit.
That's close to 1000 points to *maybe* get a first turn charge. There still a number of things that could go wrong BEFORE the actual assault happens.

In contrast you need exactly as many points/units as you want in order to shoot another unit on T1, with less randomness involved to boot.
What can you do? Sit in a bunker? deploy out of LOS and hope the opponent can't maneuver in such a way as to deny that?
And so what if you can get a cover at range?

Some weapons ignore it, D don't care what you got and since appernetly displacement is so easy to get and cast, well guess what is even easier then?
Ignore Cover, and line of sight while you're at it. It just requires the psykers and the unit to shoot. No random ranges or pesky terrain or even a chance to retaliate before.
And after you're done? You're still potentially on the other side of the table, ready to do it again. This also does not require any transports, ever. Unless you want to sit inside your equally shooty onion and shoot from inside.
Shielding you from any assault, which can't even attack you after destroying whatever you were embarked in.

Shooting is so much more reliable, cheaper and safer it's not even funny. And works without psychic support, while it also benefits from in spades.

The melta guys example is funny. The melta guys won't do squat because they won't survive interceptor and if they do, they wound the riptide, maybe.
The assault guys? Get torn apart by interceptor AND multiple overwatch attacks and whatever is left, if anything, isn't going to be around for 5 rounds.
Nor are they going to reach the riptide as it has a drones or whatever around it to prevent that. Aaand then die the following turn as they are sitting conveniently in rapid fire range.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

That's because tau eldar and marines are stupid. I think pushing them back would be a better change than making all units be able to charge turn 1 or out of deep strike. Imagine going first with grey Knights and tabling half your opponents list because everything can charge. If we keep making everything kill everything in two turns eventually it'll boil down to rolling for who goes first.

Not everything should be able to T1 assault obviously. Like you said, overall balance is an issue. But it's not the ability to perform T1 charges that is at fault. There's nothing wrong with the idea.

Things like deepstriking T1 and assaulting with no penalty should not be a thing. That's a whole other beast in comparison to running across the table without a transport and hoping you make it though.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

That's because tau eldar and marines are stupid. I think pushing them back would be a better change than making all units be able to charge turn 1 or out of deep strike. Imagine going first with grey Knights and tabling half your opponents list because everything can charge. If we keep making everything kill everything in two turns eventually it'll boil down to rolling for who goes first.

Even if GK could charge from deep strike , they have scatter mitigation on turn 1. You could STILL deploy to encourage mishaps and force them to charge garbage units, setting them up for a horrific beta strike. I personally have had trouble getting terminators into combat with the OIF for BA. It's not as easy as it sounds. Any kind of shrub or rock gives you a -2 charge distance. It's not easy for infantry w/o move through cover.

Still if you are getting first turn Charged.. it is basically your own fault for not deploying effectively

While it can be sometime impossible to avoid, it isn't hard to know it is coming, in which case it is deploy with effective screening units.

So if you are losing as game due to first turn charges, it is really your own fault

With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

That depends on how much shooting you have. KDK and butcher horde formation probably don´t have that much shooting available to them. I know that my Slaanesh incursion doesn´t have any shooting except in the psychic phase (Fateweaver is my go to shooting monster)

 Jaxler wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

They've already done their job and created a 13" charge, though. You can't get rid of them in the movement phase, which is all that matters.

I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

And please don't bring up overwatch. Unless EVERYONE gets first turn charge, primarily melee armies will be at a huge disadvantage by going second. Think about that. A melee army without 100% deep strike suddenly is a total goat. Also, don't bring up overwatch until we get some serious improvements to the chances to hit, and slow & purp get to shoot it. If overwatch was "-2 to ballistic skill, to a minimum of 1" then yeah, i'd say "charge on turn 1 all day, overwatch is my totes bruhs" but that isn't the case, and some of the more powerful units don't even get to fire it.

Wizards of the Coast do not allow first turn combos, or combos that don't allow counter play. This is a good philosophy. First turn charges without counter play are not fun.

I think scouting should allow charging, however infiltrating should not.

I think outflanking should allow charges as well on most units but deepstriking should not except for specific units.

Electro displacement should behave exactly like deepstrike and not allowed to charge the turn they magically appear. If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken.

First turn charges on certain units and Death Stars is just game breakingly bad however on many assault units it makes those dedicated units useful and thematic. The ravenguard and skyshield formations both are good examples of cool but not overpowered assault units even with first turn charges hey aren't powerful.

"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.

Great example I've faced a multiple wraithknight and spider spam army an won as well does that mean wraithknights aren't undercosted. Less strawman arguments.

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

Honestly, I don't believe that anyone has a serious shot at preventing Electro Displacement "in the psychic phase".
The SM player can just re-roll 2+ any number of charges without any hassle and basically limit failed ED to 1-3% of the time, even with the opponent having "the opportunity to deny".

Since switching over to Chaos I've often been angling for the first turn charge. It's easy to get across the table quickly, but still costs a lot of points, a bit of luck and a number of units to get an actual assault. IMO that's an ok tradeoff.

The SkyhammerAF is worse for the game. It's more like a push-button strike-charge, and comes with other benefits like the Relentless Devs.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That depends on how much shooting you have. KDK and butcher horde formation probably don´t have that much shooting available to them. I know that my Slaanesh incursion doesn´t have any shooting except in the psychic phase (Fateweaver is my go to shooting monster)

So, you have no support for your assault infantry, and are mad that you can't deal with bubble wrap? You know you can ally in Knights, renagade guard or csm right?

morgoth wrote:

Honestly, I don't believe that anyone has a serious shot at preventing Electro Displacement "in the psychic phase".

I tend to agree. Some armies might have a bonus or easier deny, but for most it's really not likely to happen, especially when there are other more immediately dangerous powers being cast.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

They've already done their job and created a 13" charge, though. You can't get rid of them in the movement phase, which is all that matters.

A 13 inch charge inside a 12 inch deployment zone? I'm fairly certain that in most missions this won't work. Also, if they have all their valued targets bubble wrapped with trash infantry they're probably slow moving blobs that can't get objectives. How many armies can actually afford to flood enough bodies to create a foot bubble around valued targets without losing its ability to shoot well or to contest objectives? If they paid the premium needed for 100 guardsmen, then by all means itd be unfair if you could negate their bubble wrap abilities.

Most armies won't be able to bubble wrap everything in their army though, and your deep striking armies shouldn't be able assault units before they react.

Also tank shocking with an asssult vehicle can help with the bubble wrap, even if this doesn't work from deep strike.

gungo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.

Great example I've faced a multiple wraithknight and spider spam army an won as well does that mean wraithknights aren't undercosted. Less strawman arguments.

My point is that you can set up and make them first turn charge garbage and then kill them. Or tarpit them. Or whatever. If your objection is unkillable death stars, that's an unkillable death star problem, not first turn charges.

"A 13 inch charge inside a 12 inch deployment zone? I'm fairly certain that in most missions this won't work. Also, if they have all their valued targets bubble wrapped with trash infantry they're probably slow moving blobs that can't get objectives. How many armies can actually afford to flood enough bodies to create a foot bubble around valued targets without losing its ability to shoot well or to contest objectives? If they paid the premium needed for 100 guardsmen, then by all means itd be unfair if you could negate their bubble wrap abilities.

Most armies won't be able to bubble wrap everything in their army though, and your deep striking armies shouldn't be able assault units before they react."

Even making it an 8" charge through cover probably saves you, though. If you block with a cheap vehicle, they have to explode it to clear it out of the way. That's pretty rare in 7th.

There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

I just don't see the harm in someone committing an insane amount of resources to a first turn charge like this. However, bouncing out of a drop pod and charging turn 1 is ridiculously strong. Unless there is a mechanism to deal with tarpitting this would be so broken it's ridiculous.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

Also, if they are all fishing for electrodisplacement, that means they probably don't have invis. That was the case when I faced it, and my drop pod fragnought on my turn 1 killed much of the conclave. Then they got charged by DC. It went downhill from there.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

Also, if they are all fishing for electrodisplacement, that means they probably don't have invis. That was the case when I faced it, and my drop pod fragnought on my turn 1 killed much of the conclave. Then they got charged by DC. It went downhill from there.

Well, he rolls them one at a time. So as soon as he gets Electrodisplacement, he can start rolling for something else.

How many libbies are we talking here? Because then you have to fish for invis. There is only a 50% chance that electrodisplacement will show up in the first four rolls. Seems fair to me.

Exactly. There's a huge trade off with ED. It's not a problem as a first turn charge mechanism. The amount of points you spend to make it happen are absurd.

Martel732 wrote:
How many libbies are we talking here? Because then you have to fish for invis. There is only a 50% chance that electrodisplacement will show up in the first four rolls. Seems fair to me.

Yeah, you need quite a few. Having failed to get my target power with 9 total Mastery Levels it's by no means a guaranteed thing. That said, I managed to get Soulswitch (Electro-disp for Chaos) twice and Ghost Storm, THEN got Invisibility in my last battle.

The swings of generating powers are really large.

Yes, they are. I think powers should have point values, honestly. Invis should be like 150, or modified to ITC rules, and even then, it's at least 50 pts.

150 points is a lot. You mean that on top of the cost of the psyker?

Or perhaps a psyker gives you some "free points" to spend on purchasing powers, and you can spend extra points if you want.


So say you have a Level 2 Librarian. He gives you 150 free points(75 per mastery level) to spend on psychic powers from the disciplines he has access to. You may also spend additional real points to add more powers if you want.

Yes. 150 on top of the psyker. Immortality should be expensive. It's frequently not expensive enough in this game. Stimtides, screamerstars, wolfstars, smashfether, etc. All functionally immortal. All undercosted badly.

GodDamUser wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

This assumes that all armies have adequate counters, they do not, particularly without tailoring, and you don't always know its coming.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

again, not every army is capablr of dynamically dealing with that, many require tailored lists to deal with that. Particularly when the game has gone out of its way to disallow such things for most of its existence and only introduced them either unintentionally or as power gimmicks.

Amishprn86 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

One thing being broken doesnt excuse another, lots of stuff is broken, doesnt mean other stuff cant also be. The game fundamentally doesnt deal with turn1 charges well and many armies arent adapted to deal with that.

"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

They are the ones who knock, though. And they've got cheap henchmen, too, I think. Make people charge into your deathcult assassins.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

Grey Knights say hi.

They are the ones who knock, though. And they've got cheap henchmen, too, I think. Make people charge into your deathcult assassins.

Inquisition and grey Knights are not the same army. They'll shoot your assassins too, and kill them with bullets as they're about as tough as as paper. If your running an assault squad of henchmen, you need a land raider, at which point your not cheap. Also ten man acolyte squads are cheap, but they won't block enough to bubble wrap effectively.

Have you looked at most assault lists? Bullets really aren't their thing. They spend all their points on assaulting. Of course, there's always skyhammer, yes.

Henchmen are not in the GK codex. So unless you're taking allies GKs don't have cheap expendable dudes. That was 2 codices ago.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Henchmen are not in the GK codex. So unless you're taking allies GKs don't have cheap expendable dudes. That was 2 codices ago.

It all kind of runs together with them. Fortunately, GK are not usually concerned about being charged.

I know many many GK players who don't use Inquisition. Inquisition stuff mostly seems to be used as allies for IG or other marine codices.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I know many many GK players who don't use Inquisition. Inquisition stuff mostly seems to be used as allies for IG or other marine codices.

I mean my knowledge of the codices. It runs together. I forget that they lost their lackeys in the most recent codex. Still, though, you guys should welcome it.

I was happy they finally separated them. its Codex Grey Knights, not Codex Daemon Hunters anymore. But I am bummed they took away some of the more interesting wargear. Gimme back my Rad and Psychotrope grenades you thieves!

Psyammo should feth up demons really bad. The dumbest match up in the whole game is how badly demons curb stomp GKs.

At any rate, there's nothing you can do with a first turn charge that Tau and Eldar already can't do by existing.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lib council using electrodisplacement to first turn charge.

The amount of effort involved in making that charge happen is very high.

1. Librarius Conclave - while not required, it does help as you harness on 2+, making the deny very difficult, but it's *still possible* to deny and/or fail the power. A large amount of resources to commit to getting that first turn charge.

2. Something to electrodisplace. You need to have an infiltrator with a scout move to make this reliable, or something with a teleport move / shunt like a dreadknight.

3. Finally, a unit that is so strong and points intensive - which includes one of your librarians - that it can actually survive being effectively cut off from the rest of your army for at least a turn after the charge.

That situation is wholly different from, "set up, deploy, charge," if you are in the camp of the process above being illegal, then there is no fathomable way to support any first turn charge.

I just don't see the harm in someone committing an insane amount of resources to a first turn charge like this. However, bouncing out of a drop pod and charging turn 1 is ridiculously strong. Unless there is a mechanism to deal with tarpitting this would be so broken it's ridiculous.

There's a reason it was banned from ITC. It's the most broken thing in the game since at least 4th edition.

Well that's a crazy position when scatbikes exist. And Riptides. And Stormsurges. And WK. And battlecompany.

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

 Vaktathi wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

This assumes that all armies have adequate counters, they do not, particularly without tailoring, and you don't always know its coming.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

again, not every army is capablr of dynamically dealing with that, many require tailored lists to deal with that. Particularly when the game has gone out of its way to disallow such things for most of its existence and only introduced them either unintentionally or as power gimmicks.

Amishprn86 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

One thing being broken doesnt excuse another, lots of stuff is broken, doesnt mean other stuff cant also be. The game fundamentally doesnt deal with turn1 charges well and many armies arent adapted to deal with that.

The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.
Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.
First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
Well that's a crazy position when scatbikes exist. And Riptides. And Stormsurges. And WK. And battlecompany.

Too bad I can only exalt you once.

What about lists that can't have blobs or fearless?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.

I guess that depends on what you define as "cheap", and if every army *must* include hordes of disposable units simply to counter one or two relatively rare abilities, and that bubble wrap is a consistent and effective counter.

Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.

These arent the armies I'm thinking of, thes are quite hyperbolic examples.

I'm thinking things like Skitarii, GK's, my thematic DKoK Grenadier company (who theoretically can get great masses of infantry...at a 20% price markup and half the options of normal IG armies), Scions, Sisters, Harlequins, etc. I'd add Eldar and Dark Eldar, but the former dont need them and the latter have cheap infantry but have too many other issues to worry about how garbage DE warriors are as bubble wrap

Lots of armies dont have integral bubblewrap units, and of those that do, the utility of such is often highly variable, and hamfistin them in for the sole purpose of anti turn1 charge bubblewrap is rather ridiculous.

Especially as these are also often some of the easiest units to break through. Bubblewrap helps...sometimes. it is far from a cure all.

First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

No, not every army should have a screen of cheap bubble wrap. Thats indicative of a problrm with game design if *every* army has to have something like that, and is antithetical to the concept of many armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Shoot down the command elements and inflict whatever damage you can on the rest, multiassault whats left, and you've suddenly cleared the flank. This can be worked around. I've been on both sides of that coin.

Not every IG army has or should have to have a Fearless blob, thats what we call a crutch. If you're having to include one just as bubblewrap to counter turn 1 charges, that is indicative of a game design problem. It's not like having to include AP2 or anti tank guns, it's a forced inclusion to counter a single relatively rare but devastating ability that generally has been disallowed for most of the game's existence, and there is a reason for that.

 Marmatag wrote:
I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

And please don't bring up overwatch. Unless EVERYONE gets first turn charge, primarily melee armies will be at a huge disadvantage by going second. Think about that. A melee army without 100% deep strike suddenly is a total goat. Also, don't bring up overwatch until we get some serious improvements to the chances to hit, and slow & purp get to shoot it. If overwatch was "-2 to ballistic skill, to a minimum of 1" then yeah, i'd say "charge on turn 1 all day, overwatch is my totes bruhs" but that isn't the case, and some of the more powerful units don't even get to fire it.

Wizards of the Coast do not allow first turn combos, or combos that don't allow counter play. This is a good philosophy. First turn charges without counter play are not fun.

Where did the bad Genestealer touch you?

But really it all comes down to is know what your opponent is capable off and deploying appropriately

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"many require tailored lists to deal with that. "

Every army has access to cheap, expendable crap.

which doesnt mean that the player knows to bring it ahead of time (and often doesnt fit into every list thematicallg speaking) or that its always as functional as people make it out to be as stopping turn 1 charges (it isnt), and no, not every army does have easy access to such things, at least without allies.

If this is that big of a concern, wouldn't you put it in every army, then? Kind of like AP 2 weapons and such? I seem to be always able to stop initial charges with Rhinos. There's really no way around them. The problem comes in when the unit that charged is immortal. Like TWC or Wraiths.

doesnt necessarily need to be immortal, though that obviously helps. Something like a Skyhammer formation against an IG gunline can decide a game on turn one by clearing an entire flank and using nothing but pods and T4 W1 3+sv dudes. Part of the problem is that it's not ultra common so counters are not integral to most armies, it's often a "gotcha" thing, and the game fundamentally just has always been built around not allowing that and thus it becomes a major issue when it comes into play as the armies, missions, deployments, and core rules just are not largely set up to deal with it.

It's also not the only broken thing in 40k, far from it, this edition of the game is pure garbage from a balance perspective even relative to older editions, but it is one of the broken things.

IG should not crumble to two assault squads. Layered defenses. Horrific beta strikes. Fearless blobs. Come on, people this is basic stuff.

Imperial Guard laugh at assault squads.
Here, have 30 points! Overwatch! 30 points dies or breaks. Shooting phase if assault squad isn't gone it's because there was more than 70 points worth of them, feed them another 50 points, overwatch and shoot.

At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

Martel732 wrote:
At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

Eldar.. Guardians and/or Direadvengers (they get overwatch shinadigans don't they)

Tau, Kroot and or Firewarriors (Not like either have much impact otherwise) .. not to mentioned your stupid lets combined Overwatch shinadigans

No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Put your rhinos at the front...have them soak up the charge.. then blow away your opponent after that

That and/or Flamers... Lots and Lots of Flamers

Martel732 wrote:
At least you can put something into your list. What do I put in my list for all the undercosted Eldar and Tau units?

You ally your Blood Angels with Vanilla Marines, Eldar or Tau until the useless stuff no longer impedes your list then wonder where your Blood Angels went.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

Put your rhinos at the front...have them soak up the charge.. then blow away your opponent after that

That and/or Flamers... Lots and Lots of Flamers

Tau and Eldar don't tend to charge too often.

Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

It's more accurate to say that 40k without a lot of terrain is a pretty binary thing.

Paying for powers isn't the right answer. The right answer is removing bloat and bringing broken powers back in line.

Electrodisplacement is strong but you have to admit that there isn't quite enough data here to say it's broken, considering most tournaments ban or adjust all AoD powers dramatically, and have never allowed them in their "default" form.

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

Martel732 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

Then you have deployed badly to have yourself in a position to get charged T1

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


The only armies that aren't adapted to deal with first turn charges are those without access to cheap units to use as blockers, funny, that's none of them.

I guess that depends on what you define as "cheap", and if every army *must* include hordes of disposable units simply to counter one or two relatively rare abilities, and that bubble wrap is a consistent and effective counter.

Some LISTS aren't capable of dealing with first turn charges and that's usually because they've sacrificed points on cheap blockers to optimise something else. Do you really think a list consisting entirely of Baneblades deserves any sympathy when units of Wulfen boosted TWC storm across the field and destroy half their points on the first turn?
Feel any sympathy for a full list of Wraithknights?
Crisis Suits?
Dreadnoughts?
I don't.

These arent the armies I'm thinking of, thes are quite hyperbolic examples.

I'm thinking things like Skitarii, GK's, my thematic DKoK Grenadier company (who theoretically can get great masses of infantry...at a 20% price markup and half the options of normal IG armies), Scions, Sisters, Harlequins, etc. I'd add Eldar and Dark Eldar, but the former dont need them and the latter have cheap infantry but have too many other issues to worry about how garbage DE warriors are as bubble wrap

Lots of armies dont have integral bubblewrap units, and of those that do, the utility of such is often highly variable, and hamfistin them in for the sole purpose of anti turn1 charge bubblewrap is rather ridiculous.

Especially as these are also often some of the easiest units to break through. Bubblewrap helps...sometimes. it is far from a cure all.

First turn charges create a need for cheap models like troops, anyone not believing that's a good thing is mad.

No, not every army should have a screen of cheap bubble wrap. Thats indicative of a problrm with game design if *every* army has to have something like that, and is antithetical to the concept of many armies.

Grey Knights, Korn Daemonkin, Harlequins and Dark Eldar are melee specialists themselves, their answer to first turn charges is "Sweet! Home delivery!" or "FINALLY! I get to play the game too!" and thematic is fluffy, not competitive.

Anyhow, first turn charge scenarios

Deathpack or Wulfen Boosted TWC
Cheap blockers - TWC costs 120 points base and goes up from there, the Wulfen cost 150 points base and go up from there.
Anything that costs 100 points or less and stops the TWC from locking in melee or wrecking a more important or expensive unit on the first turn is a tactical victory. That win is multiplied for every turn that unit keeps the TWC in combat, the only turn its still something of a win for the TWC is during melee on your first turn.

Not many Deathstars make turn one charges without some epic conga-lines but if they manage Deathstars cost massive lumps of points - so there will be very few of them. You respond by divvying your units up as thin as possible befilore the game starts and forcing the Deathstars to to hunt them, one unit per Deathstar per turn - win by ending the game with more objective points. Same thing most armies do against Wraithspam.

Skyhammer has hard counters - even my Space Wolves can use terrain and cover an 8x4 table deployment zone enough that my opponent lands his Drop Pods and Assault Marines where I let them and only charge/shoot at units of my choosing.

Same is true of Genestealer Cults - your opponent can be forced to ambush into areas you leave open to them or outside of your deployment zone by clever placement of your units during deployment, the fact they have a decent list of models they can't easily kill also makes responding to them easier.

Just a reminder of my stance, if you've neglected troops and model count in order to spam something, my sympathy is non-existant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still not getting my point. Eldar and Tau do their work shooting. There's no defense for that like there is first turn charges.

WAT?

I think you need to learn how to play the game better...

There is plenty of defense against shooting be it using cover, deploying well.. maybe even buying some fortifications for your list

If you are playing on an open table there is obviously going to be a problem.. in which case, maybe you should invest in more terrain in general

None of that frankly matters against the kind of firepower these lists can bring to bear. Especially Eldar. Scatterlasers effectively ignore cover and D weapons one-shot fortifications.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No no. I mean what do I put in my BA list to counter the broken Eldar/Tau lists? At least vs turn one assault I can use Rhinos and scouts.

That's a different issue. That's an army imbalance issue that needs to be addressed at the codex level as opposed to a basic gameplay mechanic that was designed with an inherent limitation in mind through multiple editions and nearly two decades that is now having that limitation removed in certain instances without any allowances made for the reason it was limited in the first place.

TL;DR 40k 7E is an unplayable mess

Just saying that even the worst codices can defend themselves from turn 1 assault. I've got no pity for Eldar/Tau. I firmly believe I could set up in the Eldar deployment zone and still lose to them. They're that powerful.

Also, I don't think GW ever has anything "in mind". They just print whatever they feel like.

What happens when my grey Knights get turn 1 charged by thunder wolves before I can even cast force?

All I see is this buffing Raven wing, space marines, eldar and space wolves, which I cannot approve of.

Same thing that happens if they get shot off the table before you can cast force/sanctuary/hammerhands - they die.
However, since Grey Knights are I4 like the Thunderwolves you will actually get the chance to kill some of them in melee.

Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.

GK are tough enough to survive the cult too, they're more vulnerable to shooty armies with tons of mid strenght shots.

Gen cult even at their best are quite unpredictable, far from being overpowered.

Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

 Blackie wrote:
Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.
.

Yeah, that's nice for you maybe, meanwhile Death Korps players have sit there with expansive unblobable guardsmen who can't have priest or Chimeras, for that matter. But yeah, screw those guys how dare they play a style of army they like.

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yes Gen cult are an hard counter for AM but the little men can have tac lists that can survive the eventual turn 1 charge.

Fearless blobs of guardsmen are nice, not only against the cult, and you can also deploy 4-5 units in chimeras or their flyers. You can play AM without relying on 10 tanks that do nothing in the game but shoot.

I hate the concept of static gun lines and if there's something that screws this boring style of playing I can only be happy.
.

Yeah, that's nice for you maybe, meanwhile Death Korps players have sit there with expansive unblobable guardsmen who can't have priest or Chimeras, for that matter. But yeah, screw those guys how dare they play a style of army they like.

I agree.
Screw the static gunline!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.

Can't tell if your insulting or just rude.

The point is very simple: there is no such thing as points efficient bubble-wrap when you play codex:craftworlds.

It's not about whether Eldar is OP or undercosted or anything: they just don't have the tools to deal with bubble-wrapping requirements.

You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

 rawne2510 wrote:
You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

How do you expect to stop any nasty turn 1 charges with a single 51 point bike unit?
Besides, a Wraithknight only costs 295 points

Again, as I said, this is not about whether the Eldar are points efficient or not, this is about the simple fact that they can't deal with ElectroDisplacement Deathstars and are generally thwarted by T1 charges as a codex.

you hold most of your army in reserve or on the back corner castled up. string out a 3 man bike unit 12" in front that the main big charging unit that isn´t using psychic shenanigans has to hit them or go round them increasing their charge distance.

This works to mitigate displacement by either increasing the gap between the 2 unit to more than 18" or makes the unit being swapped charge the bikes.

If you are not giving a WK secondary weapons then you are a fool.

 rawne2510 wrote:
you hold most of your army in reserve or on the back corner castled up. string out a 3 man bike unit 12" in front that the main big charging unit that isn´t using psychic shenanigans has to hit them or go round them increasing their charge distance.

This works to mitigate displacement by either increasing the gap between the 2 unit to more than 18" or makes the unit being swapped charge the bikes.

If you are not giving a WK secondary weapons then you are a fool.

You have to decide, either it's reserves or it's castle.
Either way, every single turn, you're getting assaulted anywhere on the board.

The main big unit is full of psychic shenanigans, that's the whole point of ED deathstars.

Besides, to prevent a charge in 7th edition, you need to create a wall of models so that no base can pass between them.
In other words, if the bases you're trying to stop are 32mm, you can't space your guys more than 32mm.
In order to cover enough surface to protect your hypothetical castle, you need at least a dozen bikes or more.

What you're missing though, is that there generally is a shooting phase before the assault phase, and it's generally quite easy to delete enough of the meatshield to just ignore it.
Good point about the WK, I always thought the secondary weapons were garbage, but it might be worth reconsidering since he's become a GMC.

When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging so the 2" gap is fine. With the big deathstar with all the psychic stuff is a lot of points so not so much additional shooting I usually see unless you are eldar.

The point of the bikes further up is to increase the charge distance and in addition the range for certain psychic spells.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

Can't tell if you're joking or slow.
The most overpriced thing in the Craftworld codex is reasonably priced as far as most other codecies are concerned.

Can't tell if your insulting or just rude.

The point is very simple: there is no such thing as points efficient bubble-wrap when you play codex:craftworlds.

It's not about whether Eldar is OP or undercosted or anything: they just don't have the tools to deal with bubble-wrapping requirements.

Rude.
Although I prefer to use the term honest, I will settle for blunt.

See what I mean about Craftworld costs being reasonable at the worst? Your Rangers cost the same as my Blood Claws and if the match demands it I use them as meat shields.
Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

For Eldar I'd use Wraithguard with D-scythes and Rangers to form the layers, and a squad or two of Scattbikes as bait, otherwise, I'd keep most of my stuff in reserves. Scattbikes have the range to threaten beyond their little encampment and provide good bait just by being Scattbikes. Use the Rangers as blockers and the Wraithguard to thin down on any unit(s) that win combat in your opponent's turn before blocking them again with more Rangers.
I'd also be looking for opportunities to bring firepower out of reserves to bust up any firepower the GSC player might possess, like Leman Russes.

Against other 1st turn charge methods you'll have to think up your own strategies.

It's not like your Eldar "bubble wrap" has to be jetbikes either...you have access to a unit that will make any assault eat a minimum of 5d3 D-WEAPON SHOTS via wall of death. Put them in an open-topped transport from your fancy new detachment, and/or use some soulburst to nuke the deathstar after they've destroyed your meatshield or on the odd chance they actually do have enough shooting to kill it. Even if you're using vanilla Eldar, you can simply re-position most of your army 48 inches on the other side of the table next turn, if you aren't using reserve manipulation to massively beta-strike your opponents army.

morgoth wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
You give up 1 x 51 point bike unit to stop any nasty turn 1 charges then wipe the charging unit off the board with your so expensive yet points efficient army.

81 points to get 12 Str 6 36" shots.
325 points to get with respect one of the best GMC in game with either melee D that has a choice of charging 1 of 2 units or a 2 shot D platform with the capability of charging 1 of 4 units.

Should I go on. For what the eldar get for the points they spend it isn´t expensive at all

How do you expect to stop any nasty turn 1 charges with a single 51 point bike unit?
Besides, a Wraithknight only costs 295 points

Again, as I said, this is not about whether the Eldar are points efficient or not, this is about the simple fact that they can't deal with ElectroDisplacement Deathstars and are generally thwarted by T1 charges as a codex.

By the fact that a unit has to charge what it shoots. Unless the charging army manages to wipe the 51 point unit out with Splitfire or the during the Psychic Phase they shoot that 51 point unit out of the road and can't legally charge the unit behind it or they wipe it out in melee then stop.
Most Deathstars don't have Splitfire, actually, I've never come across one that did have it.
Fulmination Discipline has a pretty good shot with the Primaris Power Electrosurge.
Telepathy forces some leadership tests that might get them out of the way.

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Following all of the rules of this site is a condition of having an account here, and is something everyone agreed to do when they signed up.

Address/attack the points of a user's post, and not the user personally.

 rawne2510 wrote:
When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging

You can. Just can't get in b2b

No

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

I´ll rephrase it. I you are choosing to charge through an enemy unit and not charge it you may not get within 1" of any model in that unit. If you believe otherwise please show proof that you can ignore the restriction which is a fundamental of the game

 rawne2510 wrote:
When charging you can´t get within 1" of something you aren´t charging so the 2" gap is fine.

That's not 40K 7th ed.

You're specifically allowed to pass within 0.0001" of an enemy model during the charge move.

I suggest you take the time to re-read the assault phase rules, you don't want to make a fool of yourself one more post on such an old issue

Martel732 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar can't deal with T1 charges competitively.

There is nothing cheap in codex craftworlds and bringing any kind of screening means pure dead weight against most armies.

We have conscripts that cost 8 points and don't have access to 10 point priests.

In an electro displacement meta, eldar are back to glass cannon status, which has been the case for all of codex:craftworlds, with an apparent lack of hammers in the meta.

I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree here that it is very hard for a combat orientated army to be able to get close so actually. Tough luck and deal with the counter

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

My bad, I thought we were talking about competitive Eldar, not about tailoring to beat a single build.

What I'm point out is that Electro Displacement deathstars break the game to the point where there can be no competitive Eldar at all.
And not just Eldar, many other factions cannot deal with that build without going for a 100% gimped build that stands no chance against other armies.

Eldar are only ever competitive through pure spam of undercosted high performing shooting units.
Once those units are actually threatened of assault, the whole army folds.
Even the mighty WraithKnight is garbage in assault, it takes a few nobs with PK or any other kind of powerfisting and it's over in seconds.

And that's fine, I mean if Eldar have to go to mid / bottom tier, that's fine too.

The problem is that Electro Displacement means auto-assault with a crazy-good deathstar that cannot lose in CC, guaranteed 95% of the time.
It's 100% brainless and it kills the whole meta which then becomes either ED or counter-ED.
I believe that's why the ITC commitee banned that psychic power from all ITC tournaments, it makes the game dumb.

On the other hand, I believe that GSC is an entirely different beast, which doesn't create the same problem, despite having first turn charge and the ability to shoot to remove road bumps.
Still, it doesn't seem to be game-breaking and can be worked around, probably because it doesn't have the invisible deathstar aspect on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I don't care what Eldar can't handle. They can die in a fire at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree here that it is very hard for a combat orientated army to be able to get close so actually. Tough luck and deal with the counter

But that's the sad part.

T1 OP charges will make the game even shittier for the armies who can't do T1 charges or shooting.
What we need is not crazy fethed up IoM schemes, what we need is a way for most CC armies to actually get in CC with enough impact.

Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

Because that's the fair price. And, as predicted, it's still effective, but maybe not an auto-take. If something is an auto-take, it's too good.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

True Morgoth but they still have to cast the spell and there still has to be a unit there for them to do that.

Eldars new counter is Yanari. If they kill the 51 point blocking unit that is 7" away from 2 unit then you are likely to start losing model from the fire that is coming your way or you will see the next units in range disappear across the board and are safe. So eldar have safety again GAH.


As for the stay an inch away I was saying earlier. I apologize there is that subtle wording change which hugely helps my slaanesh army. Woot


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

I think he meant the WK gets a 5++ Inv followed by 5+ FnP that the orks have to get through

 rawne2510 wrote:
True Morgoth but they still have to cast the spell and there still has to be a unit there for them to do that.

Eldars new counter is Yanari. If they kill the 51 point blocking unit that is 7" away from 2 unit then you are likely to start losing model from the fire that is coming your way or you will see the next units in range disappear across the board and are safe. So eldar have safety again GAH.


As for the stay an inch away I was saying earlier. I apologize there is that subtle wording change which hugely helps my slaanesh army. Woot


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Gotta chime in here, the idea that melee wraithknights are garbage in melee is absurd. 4+ attacks at init 5 strength D and mastercrafted puts down a lot of damage. Your taking down 2-3 meganobz a round before counting in stomp. The nobs are wounding on a 3+ at best and then have a 5++ and feel no pain to get through. If the wraithknight succeeds on an invul save the nobs have to make a blind test.

I use my wraithknight at 100 points more expensive than the codex price dictates and it is STILL a beast to deal with.

how are the nobz getting a 5++? mega armor gives a 2+ armor and no invulnerable save. orks were nerfed so hard with the 6th ed codex... cybork bodk is a 6+ fnp we have precious few inv saves in out codex limited to hq and kff

I think he meant the WK gets a 5++ Inv followed by 5+ FnP that the orks have to get through

ahh understood, my apologies then, my caffine to blood ratio is too low this early

So ignoring formations, psychic powers and outside buffs how many units can actually charge in the first turn from their deployment zone.

Maybe some units from the LBSF if they get REALLY lucky.

Imagine if gebestealer cult could charge out of infiltrate/outflank every time. Tell me how this wouldn't break the game.

But they can't. So it's fine.

Are we complaining about the current state of first turn charges? Or removing even more restrictions?

The only thing I think needs to really change is assault from outflank. And maybe assault from a non-assault vehicle that didn't move.

Charging from Outflank - wasn't that around in 5e?

 Rolsheen wrote:
So ignoring formations, psychic powers and outside buffs how many units can actually charge in the first turn from their deployment zone.

From deployment zone to deployment zone pretty much none. It gets slightly diffrent where infilitrators are concerned though. I wouldn't say there's plenty but at least a few infiltration models are able to charge or get charged on their first turn.

The only model I can think of that's entirely based around a first turn charge is the callidus assasin. It's the only model in the game that can be deployed anywhere on the board (1" away from an enemy) and has special rules specifically to make it survive the first turn of enemy shooting.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Personally I've never been for bubble-wrapping, it means your stuff can be surrounded and cut off, then again, Craftworld has a lot of fast skimmers to move over the top of models anyway. Against GSC I prefer to use the board edges, terrain and my models to create layers that the cult will have to fight their way through, makes it hard to charge multiple units when you can only reach one or two, also hard to gang up on units when only one of your units or one model from each unit can reach combat at a time and whenever they win melee during their turn you shoot them during yours then plug the hole but don't charge.

Craftworld Eldar have troop units that can strike at higher initiative than most GSC units meaning you might win, a great assortment of cheap flyers that melee specialists don't have the firepower to shoot down and units that are functionally immortal to everything but Purestrain Genestealers, you also have good Reserves modding abilities that allow you to adapt to getting either first or second turn.

My bad, I thought we were talking about competitive Eldar, not about tailoring to beat a single build.

What I'm point out is that Electro Displacement deathstars break the game to the point where there can be no competitive Eldar at all.
And not just Eldar, many other factions cannot deal with that build without going for a 100% gimped build that stands no chance against other armies.

Eldar are only ever competitive through pure spam of undercosted high performing shooting units.
Once those units are actually threatened of assault, the whole army folds.
Even the mighty WraithKnight is garbage in assault, it takes a few nobs with PK or any other kind of powerfisting and it's over in seconds.

And that's fine, I mean if Eldar have to go to mid / bottom tier, that's fine too.

The problem is that Electro Displacement means auto-assault with a crazy-good deathstar that cannot lose in CC, guaranteed 95% of the time.
It's 100% brainless and it kills the whole meta which then becomes either ED or counter-ED.
I believe that's why the ITC commitee banned that psychic power from all ITC tournaments, it makes the game dumb.

On the other hand, I believe that GSC is an entirely different beast, which doesn't create the same problem, despite having first turn charge and the ability to shoot to remove road bumps.
Still, it doesn't seem to be game-breaking and can be worked around, probably because it doesn't have the invisible deathstar aspect on top.

We were talking about what Eldar can use as "meat shields" against first turn charges. I used GSC as a first turn charge example since they're probably one of the harder ones for Eldar to deal with. Electro Displacement is banned in ITC competitions so it hardly matters - Wolf stars can be countered by players learning the Wolfstar ranges and being out of range on the first turn or hiding stuff in reserves - hiding stuff in reserves also invalidates Skyhammer to a good degree, you just have to be able to wait out the blob arrival.

As far as competition goes the landscape is changing from completely favouring fragile highly mobile shootie armies to being something closer to rock->paper->scissors.
Shootie armies have to worry about Melee armies with first turn charges.
Melee armies with first turn charges have to worry about MSU that can layer up cheap stuff.
MSU that layers up cheap stuff fear mobile shootie armies.

There are more than three builds but that almost sounds like a balanced competition scene.

Me being the cynical type I'm betting 8th editon will hit and change everything before that balance settles.

I voted no, then realized I'm fine with 2nd turn 1 player getting a charge. So imagine a yes from me.

Yep, go nuts with it. It's still just a game. And as has been pointed out before, you pay a LOT to get that charge reliably.

At the FLGS we set up games in advance, and you kinda know what to expect. There's one guy who always runs a Black Legion force and always puts Abaddon and a ton of terminators into your deployment zone turn 1. Many just don't play him. I can't blame them.

BUT.... His alpha strike is 600+ points. In a 1500 point list, that needs to include a Core and an Auxiliary choice to be legal. To say his Black Legion are a little short on boots on the ground is an understatement. It's hellishly easy to just sacrifice a unit to the Bringers of Despair and then go and table his army. It's also just as easy for Abaddon and co to rip your army to bloody tatters. Which I'm cool with; it's Abaddon and Chaos-tainted Justaerin after all.

So, yeah, I'm cool with it.

Using Slaanesh warlord trait for run and charge with unit on seekers taken from seeker cavalcade has let me do this a fairly good amount of times and it has let me decide a match pretty early on.

12 inch movement + (d6 run + 6in for MoS on calv + 6 inch from formation) + charge range and set at front of deployment, unit literally can charge anything on the board. And having fleet even adds onto this.

And that would be a shining example of why I went back to 3rd Edition.

If you deploy as far forward as humanly possible and then get charged on turn 1, that's kinda your fault.

If a unit is deployed on the board in deployment zone, and gets in position for a turn 1 charge, that is 100% fine.

Assaulting from deep strike, outflank, or cult ambush is very strong. Very strong. Which is why outside of Genestealers its incredibly rare and very limited in what can actually do this.

Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

Yes and no. First turn charges should be a thing... but not from a reliable pinpoint accuracy deep strike. None of this "your heavy weapons squad in the back starts out in close combat on turn one". And I say that as someone who actually likes blood angels.

 rawne2510 wrote:
No

have they faq-d it? Cause there sure is no prohibition in the brb.

If a person is allowed to shoot you off the board on turn one, then a person should be allowed to charge you off the table on turn one.

No way around this. Aside from biased excuses.

 Runic wrote:
If a person is allowed to shoot you off the board on turn one, then a person should be allowed to charge you off the table on turn one.

No way around this. Aside from biased excuses.

Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

 Vaktathi wrote:


Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

You may be right if the average shooting of the 7th was the chaos, gk or tyranids one. With armies that can spam more than 100 (if not 200) mid strenght shots with bs4 or bs3 with modifiers, grav, d weapons... it seems acceptable that a few units can assault turn 1.

 Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

You may be right if the average shooting of the 7th was the chaos, gk or tyranids one. With armies that can spam more than 100 (if not 200) mid strenght shots with bs4 or bs3 with modifiers, grav, d weapons... it seems acceptable that a few units can assault turn 1.

The biggest problem with first turn assaults is that Tau still have the best answers.

 koooaei wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
No

have they faq-d it? Cause there sure is no prohibition in the brb.

I hand´t noticed the little change in wording from previous edition. My bad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Runic wrote:
If a person is allowed to shoot you off the board on turn one, then a person should be allowed to charge you off the table on turn one.

No way around this. Aside from biased excuses.

Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

Shooting is still way too strong. And you can shoot whatever you want. The assault list has to assault what their opponent lets them assault. Huge difference. So yes, if you can shoot me off the table turn 1, turn 1 charges should absolutely be a thing. Don't like that? Make shooting a lot less potent. You can cripple a list turn 1 now.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Runic wrote:
If a person is allowed to shoot you off the board on turn one, then a person should be allowed to charge you off the table on turn one.

No way around this. Aside from biased excuses.

Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

And shooting from across the board without any risk of retaliation, also being able to ignore cover saves, also causing morale tests, Haywire, gauss, grav, etc don't give a damn about sides, sometimes even being able to fire and retreat (psychic powers, eldar, tau) are somehow not advantages of shooting?Anything you can do in CC you can do at range, sometimes better. The only advantage is sweeping advances but shooting has all the advantages without any of the drawbacks so that's not saying much. You can even kill units on the enemy turn and shooting can do all of that for a fraction of the cost while being more reliable at the same time.

Or move into alternate activation so one side cannot just shoot with impunity their entire force before the other gets to respond.

 auticus wrote:
Or move into alternate activation so one side cannot just shoot with impunity their entire force before the other gets to respond.

Alternate activation takes more of skill/tactics out of the game and puts it more into luck of the draw

Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Hrm, no, they function differently. Close combat has advantages over shooting. Shooting can be done from any range and doesn't risk attacks back in the same phase. That's its advantage.

Close combat locks the opponent's actions for the involved units, allows automatic hitting of vehicles on rear armor without having to worry about angle, allows you to hide from shooting, ignores all cover saves, forces more morale tests, adds additional potential movement and affords the ability to irrevocably wipe a unit without having to actually kill it to the last model (i.e. Sweeping Advance, where as little as one wound can result in a unit being subsequently obliterated). These are CC's advantages. The tradeoff is that you have to get close to exercise these advantages and this should fundamentally take time.

You may be right if the average shooting of the 7th was the chaos, gk or tyranids one. With armies that can spam more than 100 (if not 200) mid strenght shots with bs4 or bs3 with modifiers, grav, d weapons... it seems acceptable that a few units can assault turn 1.

These are army balance issues, not fundamental core rules issues. Don't change the core rules because Scatterbikes are ridiculous, change the scatterbikes. Perhaps Eldar should go back to being BS3 with no heavy weapons available on each and every bike instead...

Martel732 wrote:
Shooting is still way too strong. And you can shoot whatever you want. The assault list has to assault what their opponent lets them assault. Huge difference. So yes, if you can shoot me off the table turn 1, turn 1 charges should absolutely be a thing. Don't like that? Make shooting a lot less potent. You can cripple a list turn 1 now.

Again, army balance issues, not core rules issues. Fix the codex issues, don't create more issues by breaking the core rules further.

Roknar wrote:

And shooting from across the board without any risk of retaliation, also being able to ignore cover saves

This requires special rules, and is not an inherent function of just any shooting attack.

also causing morale tests,

Not as easily, and not with the threat of sweeping advance.

Haywire, gauss, grav, etc don't give a damn about sides

These are special rules, not inherent functions of shooting, and is there are issues with specific weapons and codexes and should be fundamentally addressed there, not the core rules between close combat and shooting. Yes, there are problems with these things, but not that should be addressed in the basic combat rules.

sometimes even being able to fire and retreat (psychic powers, eldar, tau)

Again, special rules, these are exceptions, same way a CC weapon might have Force or X2 Strength or a unit might have Hit & Run or the like.

are somehow not advantages of shooting?Anything you can do in CC you can do at range, sometimes better. The only advantage is sweeping advances but shooting has all the advantages without any of the drawbacks so that's not saying much. You can even kill units on the enemy turn and shooting can do all of that for a fraction of the cost while being more reliable at the same time.

And this is almost always due to codex imbalance issues, that need to be addressed at the codex level, not fixing those mistakes by changing the core rules.

That's how we end up with dumb things like vehicle HP's and tanks the end up just being MC's with no armor saves.

So half your arguments to the statements are that they are special rules.

All the armies with turn 1 charges are armies that extensively are combat and not shooty based with special rules that have certain restrictions to gain those rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only army that sort of changes the core rules for charging turn 1 is GSC and to be honest I would call taht an army wide special rule.

So nothing about turn 1 charges are changing the core rules in any way. The are all special rules that are a counter to shooty armies and benefit the combat orientated armies.

In the same way SoS is now a hard counter to Psychic armies. But you will say that they are changing the core rules to effect the psychic phase obviously.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Or move into alternate activation so one side cannot just shoot with impunity their entire force before the other gets to respond.

Alternate activation takes more of skill/tactics out of the game and puts it more into luck of the draw

I don't really see how. IGO / UGO is more luck of who goes first.

Alternate activation is activating a single unit then the other person activates a single unit. If anything it makes it more like chess and is MORE about skill/tactics then the person getting to go first being able to obliterate your army in shooting in turn 1.

 rawne2510 wrote:
So half your arguments to the statements are that they are special rules.

All the armies with turn 1 charges are armies that extensively are combat and not shooty based with special rules that have certain restrictions to gain those rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only army that sort of changes the core rules for charging turn 1 is GSC and to be honest I would call taht an army wide special rule.

So nothing about turn 1 charges are changing the core rules in any way. The are all special rules that are a counter to shooty armies and benefit the combat orientated armies.

In the same way SoS is now a hard counter to Psychic armies. But you will say that they are changing the core rules to effect the psychic phase obviously.

people are talking about first turn charges in much wider contexts here, such as Runic's statement above, and no, not all turn 1 charges are possible only through extremely specialized CC armies (e.g. Skyhammer formations), and the conversation in general is talking about it as being a counter to a shooting heavy meta rather than an isolated tiny exception, in which case the issues with shooting should be taken care of at their source not by changing something the game has attempted to actively prevent, and with good reason, for almost 20 years and 5 editions.

The shooting lists can suck it up as far as I'm concerned at this point. They have been dominating for three editions now. There need to be some assault mechanics they respect other than superfriends.

Martel732 wrote:
The shooting lists can suck it up as far as I'm concerned at this point. They have been dominating for three editions now. There need to be some assault mechanics they respect other than superfriends.

which is a terribly poor mindset for game design, and would explain how 40k became the unholy mess that it is today.

By all means, nerf D stuff, nerf Eldar and their scatterbikes, grav, etc ad nauseum, but realize where those problems come from and what their source is, not breaking something else in a rage fuelled attempt to "fix" it...by breaking more stuff.

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

Correct, but they's extremely boring to play against, and IMHO also to play with. If gun lines based lists are possible and at least viable (if not good or even overpowered) that means a bad game design, the possibility of charging turn one makes the game more tactical instead as you are forced to counter that ability by reserving some units and/or deploying the rest of the army in order to minimize the eventual charge.

Saying grav is comparable to auto hitting rear armor shows incredibly bias.

Glancing on 6s... think about that for a minute. Grav isn't strong because it glances on 6's against vehicles, it's strong because it hurts high toughness, low save monstrous creatures.

Grav versus vehicles is not nearly as strong as people claim. finally, heavy grav is 24" range, which means no matter how your opponent deploys, you can avoid being hit by their grav on turn1... and a lot of the strong grav units don't even fire overwatch should you charge them.

This whole conversation is silly. You argue strong shooting means turn 1 assault should be allowed? That makes no sense. Only in very limited scenarios, or ones with sufficient counter play, should a turn 1 charge be allowed.

You can counter play a strong shooty list by taking cover, and adjusting your position. if someone can deploy anywhere and charge, what's the counter play? Hoping for 6s in overwatch, with the units that can fire it?

Counterplay: make me assault a poor unit.

Cover is frequently means nothing vs shooting, you need los blocking terrain. And even that is often foiled by mobile firepower.

 Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

Correct, but they's extremely boring to play against, and IMHO also to play with. If gun lines based lists are possible and at least viable (if not good or even overpowered) that means a bad game design

That is a very subjective view, there is nothing fundamentally broken or wrong about gunline armies, they either stop you from getting close or they die, theyre just boring to some people, but thats neither univeral nor a fundamental balance issue.

They have lots of firepower but are relatively immobile and inflexible. The problem is that we have armies with tons of flexibility and mobility *and* all the firepower and often capable CC options to boot if they want them (e.g. Eldar or Space Marines).

the possibility of charging turn one makes the game more tactical instead as you are forced to counter that ability by reserving some units and/or deploying the rest of the army in order to minimize the eventual charge.

No, what this does is just allows one to break the gunline without ever giving it the chance to do its thing. One will notice nobody has run an IG gunline army successfully in a major tournament in 5 years, it's hard to see where turn 1 charging is "fixing" anything there

Turn 1 charging just lets you enjoy the benefits of close combat without having to put the effort into setting up the assault and closing the distance. There is nothing tactical about that. The heavy shooting armies that dominate are not immobile gunlines, they are mostly highly mobile generalist armies that have been poorly balanced with too many toys like scatterbikes and ridiculous formations and the like.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The shooting lists can suck it up as far as I'm concerned at this point. They have been dominating for three editions now. There need to be some assault mechanics they respect other than superfriends.

which is a terribly poor mindset for game design, and would explain how 40k became the unholy mess that it is today.

By all means, nerf D stuff, nerf Eldar and their scatterbikes, grav, etc ad nauseum, but realize where those problems come from and what their source is, not breaking something else in a rage fuelled attempt to "fix" it...by breaking more stuff.

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

They'll shoot me off the table. So yeah, i'm nervous.

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

bubblewrapping is way better counterplay to deepstrikers than hoping for some awesome dice rolls on DtW

 Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

Correct, but they's extremely boring to play against, and IMHO also to play with. If gun lines based lists are possible and at least viable (if not good or even overpowered) that means a bad game design

Oh will you just deal with it, I for one love gunlines be it to play with or agaisnt, everything should be roughly equally playable (even if assault is dumb, but eeeeeeeeh), it should Warhammer 40k, not Warhammer 40k Blackie edition, that'd be terrible.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

bubblewrapping is way better counterplay to deepstrikers than hoping for some awesome dice rolls on DtW

that's a fair point but again that's not an option to people with low model counts.

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

Well, actually a Deep Striking charging unit has plenty of counter play just using those same criteria you have vs Electrodisplacement.

1) You have to arrive from reserves. 1/3 chance of failing to come in. And can't happen turn 1 with most armies anyway.

2) Interceptor exists which would allow you to shoot them before they charge, and then you also get overwatch on top of that. Shooty focused factions like Tau especially have a lot of Interceptor.

3) You're still dealing with the randomness of your 2D6 scatter for the Deep Strike and then the 2D6 for assault distance.

That was one of the delicious treats of 3rd Ed. in that the only thing remotely resembling assault from Deep Strike was Daemonic Summoning, and that was not even that bad until you got Incubi Bloodletters in 3.5

 Marmatag wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

bubblewrapping is way better counterplay to deepstrikers than hoping for some awesome dice rolls on DtW

that's a fair point but again that's not an option to people with low model counts.

Specifically Eldar Wraithknight Spam, or just Eldar?
Hide units in Reserve, laugh at the first turn charges then shoot the melee units fershnickered.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets also keep in mind not every shooting army is actually good either. IG gunlines arent exactly making anyone nervous for example.

Correct, but they's extremely boring to play against, and IMHO also to play with. If gun lines based lists are possible and at least viable (if not good or even overpowered) that means a bad game design

Oh will you just deal with it, I for one love gunlines be it to play with or agaisnt, everything should be roughly equally playable (even if assault is dumb, but eeeeeeeeh), it should Warhammer 40k, not Warhammer 40k Blackie edition, that'd be terrible.

It should be an edition in which every army has the same level, the actual 40k at competitive levels is extremely terrible. A single army that can assault turn one with several units is not a threat, gen cult are mid tiers at most. The skyhammer is broken and it should never existed, we all agree about that, but several space marines gimmicks should never existed (in 40k blackie edition generic SM wouldn't exist )

Gun lines with only shooty units are terribly boring, if I play a list with 200 orks on foot it would be the same and the fact that this option isn't viable means a good game design actually. For the same reason a list with only static units that do nothing than shooting the entire game is a bad game design IMHO. Even AM has transports, chimera, taurox and flyers but also tarpit units like fearless blobs.

But blackie. Gunlines within the top level armies are the nastiest for dealing with DS chargers Tau Interceptor and Eldar speed. But both armies are generic gun lines. One just tries to blow you off the table in 3 turns and the other shhot crap out of you for 4 turns while staying out of range/LoS then boost on objectives at the end.

I feel this thing is that

First turn charge is the Rock to my scissors so it must be bad

I think we're getting to the point where maneuvering etc is kind of an after thought. Why not just roll dice and use an abstract battle system at this point?

The AM I play has no Chimera, Tauroxes, flyers with transports or fearless blobs.

Your list? Or your opponent?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Electrodisplacement is not overpowered for turn 1 charge. It has a very basic counter play and isn't at all guaranteed.

You keep saying this as of somehow your opinion is a fact and bottom line is you are flat out wrong. Electrodisplacement has been extensively tested and it's even more broken then any other form of assault from deepstrike because the player dictates which unit is assaulting first turn not a very controlled formation that can never have any ICs attached. The absolute worst assault lists in game now have little concern about screening units, movement or charge ranges becuase they can magically appear anywhere they please with little concern. Even if lib council wasn't a garaunteed thing that it is electrodisplacement would still be utterly broken. There are a handful of events that allow it and it's still a dominant build.

Okay so, 1, you have to generate the power, 2, you have to manifest it, and 3, you have to not get denied. Right there, 3 things can go wrong before you can even pick up a model. Like it or not, Deny the Witch is counter play. A lib council does make that difficult but the possibility exists. Meanwhile, there is NO counter play for deep strike charge. None. You just cross your fingers and hope.

Electrodisplacement is strong, but not exclusively because of turn 1 charging.

Can you share extensive testing results please? Maybe i'm looking in the wrong spots

Well, actually a Deep Striking charging unit has plenty of counter play just using those same criteria you have vs Electrodisplacement.

1) You have to arrive from reserves. 1/3 chance of failing to come in. And can't happen turn 1 with most armies anyway.

2) Interceptor exists which would allow you to shoot them before they charge, and then you also get overwatch on top of that. Shooty focused factions like Tau especially have a lot of Interceptor.

3) You're still dealing with the randomness of your 2D6 scatter for the Deep Strike and then the 2D6 for assault distance.

1) This is not true in general. Drop pods, genestealers, outflank, infiltrate. You know this.
2) Overwatch is less likely to be successful than denying the witch. unless you're prepared to change your stance on DTW... And interceptor is pretty uncommon in most armies.
3) Not in all cases see 1

An ED charge requires much more to get going

1. Generate the power
2. have a means to get a unit within charge range on your turn 1 that you can ED with
3. manifest the power
4. Don't get denied!
5+ all the stuff you used as an argument against other charges.

so...

In a general sense, first turn charges are bad. I am not a fan of them. If everything that charges could reliably charge on turn 1, what you'd see is each army being effectively 100% melee, or all melee on the table with anything shooty held in reserve, and the turn after it touches the table, it would be completely blown off of said table by another wicked charge.

The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

if you want to play a melee game play sigmar.

Marmatag, in practice you have over 95% chance to get the power and you're casting and not being denied 95% every single turn.

So no, it's not like the opponent gets to react, in any reasonable way.

 Marmatag wrote:
The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

That is an extremely weak argument. Many people in this thread have explained that armies that rely heavily on shooting can castle up, blob up, or fortification up and shoot all your gak off the table turn one. The best example of this is Tau and Renegades who can completely remove anything on your side of the table. If you wanted to keep things balanced in the current meta, you'd need to create the possibility for turn one assault heavy armies that can do the same like GSC or marines charging out of drop pods or some gak I think can happen. That is what they did. There was an imbalance and they tried to balance it back.

The complaint shouldn't be that this is now possible, it should be "how did we get even get here?" There isn't a problem with them trying to balance the current scales, there's a problem with the freakin scales. Argue one way or the other but until the mechanics are fixed you're going to get "balance" fixes like this.

 Marmatag wrote:
if you want to play a melee game play sigmar.

I can't wait for 8th.

"The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame. "

So does getting shot off the table in two turns.

Martel732 wrote:
"The whole meta game of melee vs ranged, is that ranged try to keep out of melee, and melee try to get close enough without dying. turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame. "

So does getting shot off the table in two turns.

The bigger problem is mobility of shooting units. Specifically, Eldar and Tau will never be caught in melee because they move further than any melee unit. Nothing should be able to move more than 6" and fire all its weapons accurately. Relentless should allow a 6" move and fire at full ballistic skill, or move maximum distance and fire with reduced ballistic skill, for instance.

It should be somewhat difficult to get into melee range - which it is in some cases - versus flat out impossible, which it is in others.

Turn 1 charges are the exact same problem we have now, but in the opposite direction. Are you legitimately interested in balance, or just out for your agenda?

For reference, most of my army is melee. I need psychic powers, deep strike, and SUPER tanky units to be viable. And of course, since I want to win, I ally in SM for centurion devastators, which are also podded.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The AM I play has no Chimera, Tauroxes, flyers with transports or fearless blobs.

You play krieg? They're not even part of the GW catalogue to be honest.... AM may not be ultracompetitive but it has several options, if you don't want to use them that's your choice. If you play the ork dread mob and complain about not being competitive while you could add bikes, meganobz, mek gunz.. it's your choice and you have to accept that.

Those units that can charge turn 1 are only a few, Gen cult's ones may not even roll for that ability and anything that starts in the opponent's deployed zone can't reach combat turn 1 due to the distance. Are those genestealers really that scary?

The current 40k is too shooty oriented as the spam of mid strenght shots is extremely easy, and anything that counters this issue is welcome. If a scary army for gunlines makes those static lists think of some measures to counter the eventual charge it's something good for the entire game imho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:


turn 1 charges completely invalidate that metagame.

The actual metagame is awful, it needs a lot of changes. The core rules are ok imho, but several codexes need a total rewrite, especially the most competitive ones. It's not ok that a troop unit with its min size has 12 S6 shots with bs4.

The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

There's nothing Krieg can field that will slow down a fast melee unit

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

Many armies can't do cheap masses to begin with.

And Instant Melee beats all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's nothing Krieg can field that will slow down a fast melee unit

Dude, krieg is not even a real 40K army, will you please just let it go.

Your specialist FW army is just for fun, you don't have to play the same points as your opponent or anything, it's made for narrative games only.

fw is illegal ©

This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

"And Instant Melee beats all."

It depends on how hard it punches.

Krieg is a very real army and it should be not neglected. And I certainly have to play the same amount of points as my opponent. You'll never shut me up about wanting Krieg armies to be good.

FW armies are generally weaker than their Codex equivalents

FW lists are fluffy and a lot of fun to play..

But if you want to play effectively you play Codex

 Bobthehero wrote:
Krieg is a very real army and it should be neglected. And I certainly have to play the same amount of points as my opponent. You'll never shut me up about wanting Krieg armies to be good.

Do you mean "not be neglected"?

I imagine so.

Yeah, typing on my phone, sorry.

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The game is Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Melee beats Elite Shooting
Elite Shooting beats Cheap Masses
Cheap Masses beat Melee

For the past two editions Elite Shooting has laughed at both Cheap Masses and Melee and now that Melee has regained it's place in the circle of hate the Elite Shooting players are crying foul.
Go figure.

Many armies can't do cheap masses to begin with.

And Instant Melee beats all.

Many armies can't do Melee or Elite Shooting. Going to try and tell me Ogryns are going to outplay their equal in points against TWC, MCs or even regular Space Marines? Maybe that Nids or Space Wolves can honesly outmatch Tau or Eldar at Elite Shooting?
Most armies do one thing really well, some do two, none can produce a list that does all three, very few can produce a list that can manage two.

Instant Melee does not beat all and not all instant Melee is the same or even equal.

*My usual list for Space Wolves laugh their heads off at GSC Cult Ambush, so can the average Tyranid, Grey Knight, Ork and Astra Militarum army.
*Skyhammer can punk my Wolves list and Grey Knights but GSC, Tyranids, Orks, AM, Tau, Eldar and anything that can screw with Reserve Rolls can all beat Skyhammer.
*Wulfen boosted Space Wolves can be thwarted by any kind of null deployment, any army that can layer up expendables, impassable terrain, anything that can block them, be it because it's expendable, resiliant or downright meaner.
*Not many Deathstars have first turn charges but those that do are banking on layers of luck, if any one of those layers crumbles their plan crumbles with it.

Melee armies have been picking scraps for the past two editions, now things have evened out and they're hungry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

Obviously this doesn´t count when you look at eldar palehost with multiple Skatach WK.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
This is getting insane now. Forgeworld lists are legal.

Forgeworld lists are tame compared to what some armies can put down without leaving the GW product line.

Obviously this doesn´t count when you look at eldar palehost with multiple Skatach WK.

How are Skatach WK worse than D-WK exactly?

I'm interested to hear this as well.

With the flamestorm template the number of models/units that that model can smash. With the Multiple Melta shot weapons a higher chance to damage vehicles than a 1 shot D weapon.

Their higher mobility and ability to jump out of combat if being bogged down.

Pretty good for a 20 point upgrade, wonder why they don't show so much at tournaments?

 rawne2510 wrote:
With the flamestorm template the number of models/units that that model can smash. With the Multiple Melta shot weapons a higher chance to damage vehicles than a 1 shot D weapon.

Their higher mobility and ability to jump out of combat if being bogged down.

Maybe you should read the reviews.... it sucks compared to what you think.

It sucks more now because you can´t soulburst with it.

It isn´t a great counter against Tau because they are High toughness multi wound models (rip tide wings) but you can add your own riptide wing to your army to deal with that and the warp spiders help against them.