...I came across the opinion that as they are come the apocalypse allies, the summoned unit can't deploy within 12" when it is summoned in, therefore it can never deploy.
I was under the impression that the 12" rule means for deploying at the start of the game. If it didn't, it'd be pretty stupid to give space marines / guard access to daemonology malefic if they had no hope of summoning anything. I'm pretty sure that this is RAI regardless the fluff abomination it creates. There is also a BRBFAQ that addresses the issue, (for some reason specifically for space marines):
'Can Space Marines really summon Daemons? And even summon Daemons on a roll of 2+ using the Librarius Conclave’s Empyric Channelling?
A: Yes, to both questions'
I had thought it was relatively common knowledge that these factions could summon. Even one of the top 8 LVO lists had a summoning lib conclave, so it seems to be passable in tourneys.
If I'm wrong then I'm happy to be corrected, however! It wouldn't particularly disappoint me if they couldn't seeing as it's not that fluffy to have librarians magicking up plague drones etc. all the time haha
Just going to summarize the argument against CTA allies summoning from the other thread here.
1. All summoning spells in malefic are 12" range or shorter.
2. Summoned units arrive by deep strike.
3. Deep striking units count as deploying- "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then DEPLOY them as follows:"
4. CTA allies cannot deploy within 12" of each other and this is not limited to the deployment phase- "Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle"
5. As the FAQ is space marine specific it only gives them an exception to what is in the rulebook, not other CTA allies.
Also there could be a third option for what happens where the armies can summon but the summoned unit has to scatter outside of 12" of all units that they are CTA allies with or the summoned unit deep strike mishaps. If this option is the correct one then this could also be applied to space marines without contradicting the FAQ.
I agree with the mishap thing not being reasonable. If a chaos unit summons a unit of bloodletters and it scatters to within 12 inches of a CTA ally, that'd imply that it'd mishap because of it. Seems pretty ridiculous.
That 12 inch rule just isn't supposed to make sense outside of the deployment phase.
I don't know fluff wise makes sense to me the slightly corrupted space marines concious of how nasty demons can be is trying to summon them as far away as possible if they are accidently too close mishap (1) they close the portal/ kill the demons or send the portal spinning off across the battlefield to unleash the daemons elsewhere wither controlled ongoing reserves or panicked your opponent chooses.
As to rules it's a combination
Deep strike section "deploy them as follows" basically counts as deploying
Deep strike mishap section won't quote whole section but key parts are "if any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed" ... several but not all examples... "something has gone wrong role on the mishap table" in other words if you can't deploy its a mishap
Levels of alliance section on come the apocalypse allies
"May not deploy within 12" of each other"
So putting the three together deep striking is deploying and cta allies prevent deployment within 12" so will cause a mishap (unless they scatter out of 12")
BRB wrote:Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies,
but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Emphasis mine.
So the real question is what does it mean to "deploy for battle" is that just the initial deployment, or does it include any deploying done during hte game?
Well their is no specific definition of deploying for battle in the rulebook so raw their is no indicaton that the for battle part is to differentiate initial deployment and using common English I would say that all my troops regardless of when I deploy them are deployed for battle as that's the intention of bringing them to the game making the "for battle" part purely descriptive.
Which brings us back to the defined term deploying
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ in 'The Turn' brief section of the rulebook may give us some hint:
"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."
This I think should suggest "deploy for battle" refers to pre-game deployment.
Yes start of game deployment would be part of deploying for battle. That sentence doesn't limit it to just pre game deployment though. You would have to do those things before any deployment happens but that doesn't prevent deep striking from being deploying for battle. That stuff is obviously done before any deep striking could happen.
roflmajog wrote: Yes start of game deployment would be part of deploying for battle. That sentence doesn't limit it to just pre game deployment though. You would have to do those things before any deployment happens but that doesn't prevent deep striking from being deploying for battle. That stuff is obviously done before any deep striking could happen.
"You were supposed to do that rule before the game begins, before your your army deployed for battle. It's a bit late now it's turn two."
"But I still have a unit in Deep Strike Reserve. That means my army has yet to deploy for battle, so I can still do it."
Completely ridiculous, yes, but so is depriving a player of using their summoned Daemons because they didn't scatter at least 12" away.
So if my psykers are in reserve I can choose to roll for their powers once I have passed their reserve roll. Therefore my opponent can´t prepare himself by knowing which powers I have. I like the idea of that.
No you role them before the game or at the point they manifest if they are created by conjuration see the generating psychic powers/ conjuration section's respectively therea
is no choice
And manifested is defined in the psychic phase as when the psychic test is passed and assuming the enemy failed to deny the witch (so before you attempt to deeps trike them) and so has nothing to do with deploying for battle
Technically, you roll power "before deployment"....so if we are arguing that Deep Striking counts as deployment, you could argue that you don't have to roll once their reserve roll is passed and just before they are placed on the board.
I am firmly in the camp of "deploy for battle" being a direct statement about the pre-game deployment and therefore would not consider Deep Strike "deployment" for the purpose of CTA.
You are also rolling for your powers before the game begins as well as before deploying for battle. The before deploying for battle is an extra clarification of when it happens not the only restriction.
roflmajog wrote: You are also rolling for your powers before the game begins as well as before deploying for battle. The before deploying for battle is an extra clarification of when it happens not the only restriction.
Do you genuinely think that or just trolling? Or just not even glanced in the direction of a rulebook?
Read the conjuration section
"If the new unit is a psyker, generate it's psychic power as soon as the conjuration is manifested"
That's not even remotely ambiguous. And nothing to do with deploying for battle
The only other section that reference's generating psychic powers says in bold "psykers generate their powers before the game begins" this clearly cannot apply to conjured daemons.
No where does it reference generating them before deployment that you made up (except by implication in that both passages must occur prior to deployment)
Erm I was talking about normal psykers and galef's point about psykers in reserve rolling after the game has started, not summoned psykers. I was going by the rule quite posted by me shine earlier because I don't have access to my rulebook right now.
Well for clarification this entire thread has been about summoned daemons but to use his quote of before the game begins= before the armies deploy the key point is "armies" not unit
You just stated that deploying for battle count the same as deploy in deep strike. But there is no evidence for this, they are completely different. They have different rules and regulations for how the process works. This is the case where you have to prove the link between two different rules. Just because they both use the same word deploy doesn't mean that they deploy in the same sense. Deploy is a very common military term and therefore cant really be used on its own to link these two rules, as they may not be related to one another. You also deploy from rhinos but that isn't expected to the exact same thing as deep strike.
Come the Apocalypse states that cannot deploy within 12" of each OTHER when THEY are DEPLOYING for battle.
This to me is stating that they cannot be deployed simultaneously within 12" of each other. This really only happens during deployment at the start of the battle.
Anything performing the process of deploying, come the first turn, have become deployed, they are no longer deploying, that has already been finished.
If you bringing summoned units, the other units on the board have been deployed, which is what happens when deploying has been completed, so, they are not currently deploying for battle. They have already been deployed for battle, the battle is in progress.
Only the NEW units are actually deploying. The other units are already deployed.
So they are not DEPLOYING within 12" of each other.
Doesn't 'Reserves' say you deploy a unit into reserves? Thus even guys who are deep striking are already deployed: they were deployed into deep strike reserves.
Thus, when you're summoning, you're already well past deploying for battle.
I'm of the opinion that this is a "spell level" sort of argument (GW using the same word to mean different things to confusing effect, because nobody bothered to pick up a thesaurus).
The 'Come the Apocalypse Allies' heading reads (in full) "Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."
If the phrase "when they are deploying for battle" wasn't included the argument that you can't summon daemons would have a leg to stand on, but its inclusion seems to indicate (quite clearly, at least to me) that GW intended the Come The Apocalypse restriction to apply to normal pre-game deployment rather than to arriving from Reserves (even if they could have worded it more strongly).
Technically, you roll power "before deployment"....so if we are arguing that Deep Striking counts as deployment, you could argue that you don't have to roll once their reserve roll is passed and just before they are placed on the board.
I am firmly in the camp of "deploy for battle" being a direct statement about the pre-game deployment and therefore would not consider Deep Strike "deployment" for the purpose of CTA.
"Deployment" and "deploying" are two completely different things. The first is a noun and denotes the steps you take before the game begins that starts with the first unit being put on the board or declared in Reserves. The second is a verb used when a unit is placed on the board. It is specifically used in Deep Strike, Arriving From Reserves, and Outflank as well as in Deployment.
Des702 wrote:You just stated that deploying for battle count the same as deploy in deep strike. But there is no evidence for this, they are completely different. They have different rules and regulations for how the process works. This is the case where you have to prove the link between two different rules. Just because they both use the same word deploy doesn't mean that they deploy in the same sense. Deploy is a very common military term and therefore cant really be used on its own to link these two rules, as they may not be related to one another. You also deploy from rhinos but that isn't expected to the exact same thing as deep strike.
Edited for grammer and poor voice recognition.
Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.
I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.
"of each other when THEY are deploying for battle"
They is your other units and this unit.
Anything on the board has been deployed, it is not deploying.
Therefore any daemon summoned is not "deploying within 12" of each other" you have a deployed unit and an deploying unit.
Not two deploying units.
THEY will only both be deploying, in initial deployment.
They would have to make the One Eye Open roll but I don't see anything that would prevent their deploying.
Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.
I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.
I am agreeing with you. I am confused why you quoted me for this as my statement somewhat mirrors yours.
Sorry, but the conditions for Come The Apocalypse are when the UNIT deploy for battle, not the army or the player. Since we are only concerning ourselves with when the unit deploys for battle, it would be mid-game if they came in via Deep Strike, Psychic Power or not.
I'm fairly certain that this was not the intention of the authors, but they have a tendancy to not map or plan their rules out to be coherent and easy to parse.
I am agreeing with you. I am confused why you quoted me for this as my statement somewhat mirrors yours.
Because you were indicating that the "deploy" in "deploy for battle" and "deploy from Deep Strike" were two separate or different things.
Your example didn't help because in game terms, you disembark from a Rhino, not deploy from it.
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
They are not. If you board someone and their reserves do not come in, they lose for not having any units deployed.
Because you were indicating that the "deploy" in "deploy for battle" and "deploy from Deep Strike" were two separate or different things.
Your example didn't help because in game terms, you disembark from a Rhino, not deploy from it.
I'll give you the transport thing because I don't have my book in front of me and I forgot what it had for wording.
But for the rest of it I wasn't referring to units or armies are or even psychic powers. I was referring to the fact that just because two separate rules have the word deploy in them, doesnt mean they act the same. The counter arguments were trying to link them and i was stating that you just cant link two things because they share a word.
I thought it was clearly evident in how I wrote it, but possibly not. I'm not always elegant with my wording.
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?
I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.
If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?
All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.
If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?
Tsol wrote:I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.
If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.
Because the FAQs, like many in this cycle, contradict what is actually written in the rules. Because the OP was asking why some people didn't think it would work.
Where is the FAQ on this, out of curiosity? It is not in the BRB Update where it should be. The FAQ referenced in the OP is more about accessing and using the spell. It doesn't state anything about the unit not Mishapping when it deploys. That is applying an unstated implication.
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?
All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.
If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?
Tsol wrote:I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.
If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.
Because the FAQs, like many in this cycle, contradict what is actually written in the rules. Because the OP was asking why some people didn't think it would work.
Where is the FAQ on this, out of curiosity? It is not in the BRB Update where it should be. The FAQ referenced in the OP is more about accessing and using the spell. It doesn't state anything about the unit not Mishapping when it deploys. That is applying an unstated implication.
Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.
BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.
If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.
What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?
I'm totally for servants of the corpse-emperor succumbing to the sweet temptations that the chaos gods offer them. Soon their whole gilded over, but rotten throughout world will collapse!
I'd have to agree with Charitoph that they are talking about when the unit deploys, not the army. I did have a question about them describing moving on from reveserves as deployment, but I did find a reference to that in the Deep Strike Mishap table, so they do consider it deploying (going by what is said in Reserves in general, there might have been a question as to whether it counted as deployment), so a unit coming in from reserves is definitely deploying.
This gets compounded by the FAQ question saying that SM characters can take malefic daemonolgy, but not specifically addressing summoning as part of that. As it stands, by RAW you can get summoning but you couldn't use it. I would suspect that RAI is that if they're allowing malefic daemonolgy for the SMs, that they'd allow summoning to work also and that there would need to be a way for them to come on to the board, but that's just an opinion. It would definitely be something to talk about beforehand with your opponent if you suddenly want your Librarians summoning chaos demons.
I'd have to agree with Charitoph that they are talking about when the unit deploys, not the army. I did have a question about them describing moving on from reveserves as deployment, but I did find a reference to that in the Deep Strike Mishap table, so they do consider it deploying (going by what is said in Reserves in general, there might have been a question as to whether it counted as deployment), so a unit coming in from reserves is definitely deploying.
This gets compounded by the FAQ question saying that SM characters can take malefic daemonolgy, but not specifically addressing summoning as part of that. As it stands, by RAW you can get summoning but you couldn't use it. I would suspect that RAI is that if they're allowing malefic daemonolgy for the SMs, that they'd allow summoning to work also and that there would need to be a way for them to come on to the board, but that's just an opinion. It would definitely be something to talk about beforehand with your opponent if you suddenly want your Librarians summoning chaos demons.
Can you elaborate on how exactly, RAW, you can get it but you can't use it?
I read the phrasing and I don't see how that conclusion is reached.
Roknar wrote: We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.
From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.
So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?
What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?
All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.
If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?
They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.
That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.
@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
doctortom wrote: @ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
Well I understand that there was an FAQ.
But as I stated a bit further up, even RAW would not interpret into deepstrike mishaps occurring on summons and that is putting the FAQ aside.
So my query was as to what the initial argument against it was.
doctortom wrote: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
As I said, I don't see how summoning is a problem for CTA units, but I'd like to say this for the marine faq.
Marines are allowed to conjure daemons, as everybody else is too. That doesn't have any impact on what happens when they do though.
Marines get to summon daemons on a 2+ as the faq says, but if you believe that being CTA allies would apply when summoning, then they would still mishap when manifesting the power since you can't deploy them within the 12 inch area.
I'd argue that only the final position counts in this scenario though as the initial part doesn't actually place any restrictions. Put it where you want it to arrive and then check where it *actually* arrives.
doctortom wrote: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
As I said, I don't see how summoning is a problem for CTA units, but I'd like to say this for the marine faq.
Marines are allowed to conjure daemons, as everybody else is too. That doesn't have any impact on what happens when they do though.
Marines get to summon daemons on a 2+ as the faq says, but if you believe that being CTA allies would apply when summoning, then they would still mishap when manifesting the power since you can't deploy them within the 12 inch area.
I'd argue that only the final position counts in this scenario though as the initial part doesn't actually place any restrictions. Put it where you want it to arrive and then check where it *actually* arrives.
This is incorrect though.
CTA rules state that " THEY cannot be within 12" of EACH OTHER when DEPLOYING"
"They" is more than one unit.
"Each other" is radius from one unit to another unit.
Lets say I am playing first, deploy/deploying my forces.
My first turn, are the units that were deploying in my deployment, deployed or still deploying?
They are deployed, they are no longer performing the action deploying.
If THEY were deploying they would both be arriving, two units deploying.
CTA only applies to units deploying within 12" of each other. If I summon some deamons at this point and they arrive next to a CTA, lets say 8" away, we have a deployed unit and a deploying unit.
We do not have THEY "two or more units" deploying within 12" of each other. The only time you can apply the rule would be in the deployment phase.
Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.
BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.
If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.
What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?
1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.
If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.
3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.
Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.
That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.
If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?
What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?
In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.
So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.
What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?
doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
You missed my point. I was saying that even if you believe it is a problem, the marine faq isn't any exception. Being able to conjure units wouldn't allow you to circumvent the issue, that's a separate thing, so the Marine faq wouldn't be a contradiction.
As for CTA requiring two units "deploying", you never have two units both "deploying" as you first have to finish deploying the one unit before you can deploy the other. So CTA wouldn't matter, ever, with that reading.
The CTA rule just means that you can't deploy any two CTA units within 12 inch of each other.
Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.
BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.
If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.
What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?
1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.
If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.
3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.
Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.
That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.
If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?
What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?
In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.
So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.
What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?
doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
I think that you are missing my point.
When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.
Deepstriking is a deploy/deployment, I have no objection to this.
CTA states, CTA UNITS,are treated exactly like desperate allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when THEY are deploying for battle.
Key points.
1. UNITS, not unit.
2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
3. THEY, is more than one unit.
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.
Your deployment phase is the only time that models are put on the table at the same time and all considered to have arrived at the same time, when you finish placing them.
Once a unit has been placed down once the game is started, it is now deployed, it is not performing the action deploying.
If I summon daemons, the UNIT is deployed normally, there is no deepstrike mishap.
The wording of CTA requires UNITS "more than one" to deploying within 12" of EACH OTHER.
We do not have units deploying, we have a unit, one unit, deploying, there is no other deploying unit within 12".
We only have ONE unit performing the action of deploying, not UNITS.
All of your statements were correct, except the CTA wording requires the UNITS involved to be deploying in order to be applicable.
Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.
BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.
If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.
What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?
1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.
If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.
3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.
The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.
4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.
Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.
That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.
If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?
What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?
In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.
So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.
What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?
doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRBFAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.
Given the BRBFAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.
There is sense to it. A mishap doesn't stop you from deploying a unit, it just delays it, unless it blows up. So even if they do mishap automatically, they could still arrive somewhere else or later.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.
Why do you apply the mishap rules? It is not required.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BRB Page 132
Standard Deployment Method.
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.
2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up all units in their army.
3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.
4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.
CTA explicitly states UNITS, not unit, UNITS deploying withing 12" of EACH OTHER. This page clearly shows us per step 2 that the player is DEPLOYING their army.
Step 4 clearly shows us that at step for the units are DEPLOYED. They are therefore no longer DEPLOYING.
The statement on CTA notates UNITS may not be withing 12" of each other when THEY are DEPLOYING.
DEPLOYING has already finished, THEY are no longer deploying. When you perform a summon a UNIT, not UNITS, not a THEY, is deploying. THEY and DEPLOYING indicates that you have two or more units performing the action deploying.
A single unit deploying is not UNITS deploying.
The 12" only applies for the deployment step, a mishap is not required for a summon, the requirements for the statement are not being met. I am reading off the entire rule, not cherry picking one or two words, the entire statement is being evaluated.
If I summon some bloodletters, are UNITS deploying within 12" of EACH OTHER? No.
And yes, it says "units". In this case "units" would be the summoned unit and the unit doing the summoning. In all cases, being within 12" means that there has to be a unit already on the board and one being deployed. Their use of "units" is not specifically 2 units deploying at the same time. I don't see this as a reason that invalidates the CTA rules. I do see the specific permission for summoning to say that you can summon them onto the board, however.
And yes, it says "units". In this case "units" would be the summoned unit and the unit doing the summoning. In all cases, being within 12" means that there has to be a unit already on the board and one being deployed. Their use of "units" is not specifically 2 units deploying at the same time. I don't see this as a reason that invalidates the CTA rules. I do see the specific permission for summoning to say that you can summon them onto the board, however.
The key term for me is "when THEY are deploying"
I would assert that it is 2 units deploying at the same time because it notates "each other", identifying the relationship between both of them performing the same action.
Per page 132, "they" would only be deploying per step 2 of the deployment method at step 4 it states deployed, meaning deploying is no longer occurring.
A deepstrike/summon would be an instance of a unit, not units, deploying.
Be careful with terminology on this, we have a UNIT, not units.
Models are in a unit.
We do not have a "THEY" deploying, we have a deployed and deploying unit.
A 5 man tactical squad is a unit, regardless of many models are in said unit.
It was written in general, to cover all deployment, so the use of "they" is understandable without it indicating that it is excluding units deploying later than others.
Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.
When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.
I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?
Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.
If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.
Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.
The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?
So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.
Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.
The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.
Quite an apt comparison. You were stating that since they were given permission to Summon Daemons, they would override the CTA rules, even though it is never referenced by the Power, the FAQ, or the CTA rules in any form. The FAQ doesn't do anything more to stop me from Conjuring that Daemon unit on to Impassable Terrain, either, should it override that as well?
Open-Topped Vehicles provide the Assault Vehicle rule which allows a unit that Disembarked this turn to Charge. It makes no reference to Reserves Charging, nor do the restrictions on Reserves Charging ever mention units being Disembarked from a Transport. Deep Strike does, but only to go so far as to say that the disembarked unit is Deep Striking, too, nothing about if the Vehicle is Open-Topped.
Do we casually allow permissions to override restrictions they do not address, or do we consider those restrictions in play until they are directly addressed by the rule in question?
Interesting. I'm not declaring for RAW either way, but consider this:
If I have a BA squad deep strike on turn 2, as part of the formation that allows them to make a disordered charge from deepstrike, could they ever successfully charge a CTE army? If they are deploying then they could never get withing 12" of the enemy (out of charge range). Would this actually trigger a deep strike mishap? If I drop BA hammernator squad 6" from the enemy HQ, and they do not scatter, is this therefore an invalid deployment RAW?
Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.
When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.
I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?
Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.
If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.
Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.
The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?
So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.
Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.
The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.
Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.
That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.
Quite an apt comparison. You were stating that since they were given permission to Summon Daemons, they would override the CTA rules, even though it is never referenced by the Power, the FAQ, or the CTA rules in any form. The FAQ doesn't do anything more to stop me from Conjuring that Daemon unit on to Impassable Terrain, either, should it override that as well?
Open-Topped Vehicles provide the Assault Vehicle rule which allows a unit that Disembarked this turn to Charge. It makes no reference to Reserves Charging, nor do the restrictions on Reserves Charging ever mention units being Disembarked from a Transport. Deep Strike does, but only to go so far as to say that the disembarked unit is Deep Striking, too, nothing about if the Vehicle is Open-Topped.
Do we casually allow permissions to override restrictions they do not address, or do we consider those restrictions in play until they are directly addressed by the rule in question?
BRB Page 132
Standard Deployment Method.
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.
2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.
3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.
4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.
On step two, deploying and all would indicate to me that it is being done at the same time.
Step four enforces this by notated that they were deploying and are now deployed.
THEY, the summoning unit and the unit summoned, are not deploying.
MattKing wrote:Interesting. I'm not declaring for RAW either way, but consider this:
If I have a BA squad deep strike on turn 2, as part of the formation that allows them to make a disordered charge from deepstrike, could they ever successfully charge a CTE army? If they are deploying then they could never get withing 12" of the enemy (out of charge range). Would this actually trigger a deep strike mishap? If I drop BA hammernator squad 6" from the enemy HQ, and they do not scatter, is this therefore an invalid deployment RAW?
Come the Apocalypse rules only apply when the units are part of the same army. Ally rules do not care what your opponent has in his army. Might as well try to Embark in his Transports if you are of the same Faction as trying to enforce this level of interaction.
Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.
When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.
I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?
Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.
If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.
Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.
The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?
So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.
BRB Page 132
Standard Deployment Method.
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.
2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.
3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.
4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.
On step two, deploying and all would indicate to me that it is being done at the same time.
Step four enforces this by notated that they were deploying and are now deployed.
THEY, the summoning unit and the unit summoned, are not deploying.
Seeing nothing about "at the same time" here. During the same time period, sure, but that's not at the same time. All of a unit's shooting is done during the same time period, and a unit's Boltguns would be considered firing at the same time, but the same unit's Meltaguns would be considered firing at a different time. Other units would be firing in the same time period, but they are definitely NOT considered firing at the same time.
Sorry. What I meant to convey was: If deepstriking is deployment is this still possible? Isn't there a general rule about not deploying within 12" of an enemy unit? Or is that just scouts?
The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.
Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.
The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.
If you put all your models in a pile in the middle of your deployment zone, they are not considered deployed. You are asserting they are locked in place once they touch the table. This is not the case.
Once you finish moving them around to the location you want them to be and complete the phase, they then complete the process of deploying. There is no way to identify a deployment order, so when the phase completes they will all have deployed at once.
Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.
The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.
Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.
Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.
The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.
Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.
If we have to treat them all as the same, then counting the deploying phase as all coming in at the same time, would be counting them the same, which by the wording of CTA is exactly where it would apply.
Ceann wrote: The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.
Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.
The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.
DEEP STRIKE MISHAP
"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy mode, something has gone wrong."
THEY are still deploying later in the game, when they come in from Reserves and through Deep Strik.
Ceann wrote: The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.
Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.
The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.
DEEP STRIKE MISHAP
"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy mode, something has gone wrong."
THEY are still deploying later in the game, when they come in from Reserves and through Deep Strik.
I am aware of the deep strike rules.
However the wording of CTA is worded so that it only applies to UNITS, performing the action, of DEPLOYING within 12" of EACH OTHER.
If you are deep striking, the other unit has already deployed, the summoning unit is not deploying, so it is not deploying within 12" of each other.
A single unit is deploying and a single unit is deployed.
There are not UNITS performing the action of deploying.
The only time units would both be deploying at the same time, is during the deployment step.
MattKing wrote:Sorry. What I meant to convey was: If deepstriking is deployment is this still possible? Isn't there a general rule about not deploying within 12" of an enemy unit? Or is that just scouts?
Units cannot get within 1" of another unit they are not Charging. If you end up 1/2" from an enemy model while Deep Striking, you Mishap.
Infiltrators cannot deploy within 18" of an enemy unit that can draw line of sight to them, or within 12" of a unit that cannot draw line of sight to them.
Ceann wrote:The game has not yet started in the deployment phase, comparing the shooting phase, or an in game phase to deployment is disingenuous.
Once the game starts, all of the units are deployed. There is no reason to assume there is a sequence associated to the deployment phase.
The step states deploying and all.
Once the game has started THEY are no longer deploying.
If you put all your models in a pile in the middle of your deployment zone, they are not considered deployed. You are asserting they are locked in place once they touch the table. This is not the case.
Once you finish moving them around to the location you want them to be and complete the phase, they then complete the process of deploying. There is no way to identify a deployment order, so when the phase completes they will all have deployed at once.
Sorry, but that is not but HYWPI.
I used the Shooting Phase to demonstrate how something is considered "at the same time" in the rulebook as that phrase is actually used in the rules of the Shooting Sequence.
That the game has started or not is irrelevant unless we have rules to make them relevant. Nothing I have found nor that you have presented makes deploying during deployment as "all at the same time". Especially when we have to consider how the rules for Infiltrate and Scout work, and all of which is part of deployment.
Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.
Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.
That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.
The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.
Fair enough. I'm just saying there is more evidence to suggest that they mean the deployment phase than not.
They only use it twice to my knowledge. Once in the pregame section which could mean either, and once with CTA which, although not impossible, makes little sense when using the synonym interpretation.
RAI seems clear enough for me in this case.
Yeah, it's probably RAI (and I even stated as such earlier), however the phrase used with deployment is for the entire model collection called "the army", and as we know that when a rule is directed at a unit, it by no means requires that we consider the entire army in that consideration.
I am aware of the deep strike rules.
However the wording of CTA is worded so that it only applies to UNITS, performing the action, of DEPLOYING within 12" of EACH OTHER.
If you are deep striking, the other unit has already deployed, the summoning unit is not deploying, so it is not deploying within 12" of each other.
A single unit is deploying and a single unit is deployed.
There are not UNITS performing the action of deploying.
The only time units would both be deploying at the same time, is during the deployment step.
Units deploying - are any of your units deploying? Yes. Is it deploying within 12" of the unit summoning it. YES, is is being DEPLOYED within 12" of EACH OTHER.
Any unit that is on the board has already deployed, so by your argument you would never get to apply the range restriction as the unit would always be deploying in relation to a unit that has deployed. As you say, it only cares about UNITS deploying, not ARMIES deploying. Your army could still be in the deployment phase, but any units on the board have already deployed. You aren't given permission to deploy two units simultaneously according to the rules, so going by what you say, you would never fulfill the requirement you have set up, and you could always deploy units anywhere near CTA allies (as long as they weren't within 1", since treating them as enemy units still applies).
---------------------------
Standard Deployment Method.
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.
2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up ALL units in their army.
3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.
4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.
---------------------------
BRB Page 135, under preparing reserves, last sentence.
---------------------------
If it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.
---------------------------
BRB Page 127 CTA
---------------------------
Units that will only ally "CTA" are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.
---------------------------
Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.
Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.
You cannot use the shooting phase to demonstrate, the shooting phase is an unrelated rules section to preparing for battle.
Reserves are part of the preparing for battle section.
Hence my argument.
THEY, "the units", cannot deploy within 12" of each other, when deploying for battle.
This deployment is taking place in the preparing for battle section of the rule book. That is the only place the deployment step exists. There is no deployment step during the game.
Once the game has started, a unit on the table has already deployed, for battle, a unit in reserves is using the reserve rules from the preparing for battle section, has not deployed for battle, it is now doing so.
There is no contention because it is not deploying within 12" of a unit that is deploying for battle. They have already done so.
The 4 steps of the deployment method do not indicate whether there is a sequence or not but it is the deployment step, it would be hard to argue any unit on the board in the deployment step is not deploying. The CTA are based around UNITS taking the action OF deploying, the units are not considered deployed until you end the step. Once you end the deployment step, them all being deployed at the same time would be a reasonably logical conclusion as the deployment step allowing deployment has ended.
The quote from page 135, Deployment Step of Preparing for Battle, makes me willing to agree with you that when CTA talks about deploying for battle, they mean during the deployment step of preparing for battle. They hadn't used "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the obvious locations so that it's defined. (I think that was some of the issue Charistoph was having - there hadn't been a definition for :"deploying for battle" indicated before)
The rest of the argument, about them already being deployed, didn't convince me because any unit on the board (and we're talking about units, not armies) has already been deployed. Likewise, the comment "there is no deployment step during the game" doesn't matter without that definition of Deployment step of preparing for battle from page 135, because otherwise "deploying for battle" is an undefined term, and could have as easily applied to a unit coming out of reserves and appearing in the battle for the first time.
The definition, though, does indicate that it looks like their intention is for the CTA restrictions on deployment should apply during only the deployment phase during the game. Thanks for finding the one quote to indicate what deploying for battle is!
Ceann wrote: Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.
Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.
Conflation or truncation. It is under "Preparing for Battle". Deployment is the last step in setting up the stage of a battle, or "preparing". Going from that deployment is "preparing for the game".
A unit deploying from Reserves is now being deployed for the battle, or being "deployed for the game". Same connotations here by using the same language in the same form.
Ceann wrote: You cannot use the shooting phase to demonstrate, the shooting phase is an unrelated rules section to preparing for battle.
Reserves are part of the preparing for battle section.
Pay attention. I have explained it twice. Don't go Col_Ignored on me here. In order to treat something as happening "at the same time", and it doesn't involve and actual physical interaction as such, it needs to state "at the same time". The best example of this in the rulebook is in the Shooting Phase which demonstrates the concept.
It's called establishing semantics and precedence. I am trying to teach you where to look for examples of use in this language and how it is used in this form.
Ceann wrote: Once the game has started, a unit on the table has already deployed, for battle, a unit in reserves is using the reserve rules from the preparing for battle section, has not deployed for battle, it is now doing so.
That has been the point.
Ceann wrote: There is no contention because it is not deploying within 12" of a unit that is deploying for battle. They have already done so.
The 4 steps of the deployment method do not indicate whether there is a sequence or not but it is the deployment step, it would be hard to argue any unit on the board in the deployment step is not deploying. The CTA are based around UNITS taking the action OF deploying, the units are not considered deployed until you end the step. Once you end the deployment step, them all being deployed at the same time would be a reasonably logical conclusion as the deployment step allowing deployment has ended.
Actually to use the language in such a literal manner, they would have to be deployed at the same time. In order for me to justify it any differently would require specific instruction which you have not provided.
And if deployment is enough "all at the same time", how would you explain this:
INFILTRATE ...
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these
units.
Scout After both sides have deployed (including Infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy.
Can Scouts and Infiltrators ignore CTA restrictions then, or can they never use their rule as they have to wait until "all at the same time" deployment is done, by which the game starts?
Edit: One other point, the CTA rules do not state "when they both deploying for battle". If it did, then the "at the same time" concept would apply.
Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.
I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.
However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?
If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve. This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.
Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.
Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.
This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.
Ceann wrote: Page 135 tells us that the deployment step is the deployment period of "for battle" anything not deployed then is either destroyed if it cannot move or placed in reserves.
Page 132 tells us the steps for deployment, the actual rules, and shows that once a players turn starts the units are deployed and are no longer deploying. At some point between step 2 and step 4 all of player 1's units performed the action deploying. We also have a GIGANTIC full color page BRB 115 notating this RULES SECTION is for preparing for battle.
Conflation or truncation. It is under "Preparing for Battle". Deployment is the last step in setting up the stage of a battle, or "preparing". Going from that deployment is "preparing for the game".
It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"
Ceann wrote:Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.
No, they would only ignore the things which they are stated to ignore. Nothing in them is stated to ignore the "deploying at the same time" concept you are putting forth.
Ceann wrote:I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.
Thank you. You kept going on about how they were different phases as if that mattered. It was getting me a little concerned.
Ceann wrote:However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?
In order for a unit to be "deploying", you would be in the process of putting its models on the table. When you are finished putting the models on the table, it has been "deployed". If there are no models of the unit on the table, they are not declared to be in a Transport, or declared to be in Reserves, they are "not deployed".
This is going by the use of the term "deploy" in Deployment, the various Outflank rules, Deep Strike, and the Reserves rules.
Ceann wrote:If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve.
I'm going to need a quote for that one. In fact, it tends to be that deployment is done when all the units that you were going to use were deployed and have Scouted.
Ceann wrote:This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.
No, a different tom-follery is going on. You are saying that all of the units are being deployed at the same time while providing no written statement that this is in consideration.
Remember, in order to be considered happening "at the same time" we need instructions telling us to consider them happening "at the same time." It doesn't go the other way.
Ceann wrote:Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.
Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.
This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.
You are conflating "side" with "units" in that quote. This is the same as considering "army" and "units" the same thing. They are not the same thing, so that consideration is out the door.
While you are deploying your army, your units are transitioning from being "not deployed" to "deployed", "Reserves", or (in the case of OP) "Awaiting Conjuration".
While your unit is Charging, you have an initial Charging model which moves, and if that initial Charging model has successfully Charged, the rest of the models are then moved in.
So, do not associate what you are in the middle of doing with what the individual units have, or have not, done, they are not even on the same level of considerations.
doctortom wrote:It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"
Sorry, but if deployment is part of "preparing for battle", then there is no required association with deployment for "deploying for battle".
In order for "preparing for battle" to associate "deploying for battle" with deployment, then deployment would be part "of battle" and happen after "preparing for battle" was complete, not the last thing to do for it. Consider what "preparing" means.
Therefore "for battle" can only mean "for the game". At which point, a Deathwing Terminator unit Deep Striking in is "deploying for battle", as they have not deployed yet for the game.
Ceann wrote:Infiltrate and Scouting are special rules and would therefore ignore the basic rules set in the preparing for battle section. This would technically work out to Infiltrate and Scouting treating CTA as Desperate Allies, effectively.
No, they would only ignore the things which they are stated to ignore. Nothing in them is stated to ignore the "deploying at the same time" concept you are putting forth.
Ceann wrote:I understand what you are saying about the verbiage for "at the same time" is not present.
Thank you. You kept going on about how they were different phases as if that mattered. It was getting me a little concerned.
Ceann wrote:However during the deployment phase, you are deploying or not deploying, or would you argue that there are units on the table in the deployment phase that are not deploying?
In order for a unit to be "deploying", you would be in the process of putting its models on the table. When you are finished putting the models on the table, it has been "deployed". If there are no models of the unit on the table, they are not declared to be in a Transport, or declared to be in Reserves, they are "not deployed".
This is going by the use of the term "deploy" in Deployment, the various Outflank rules, Deep Strike, and the Reserves rules.
Ceann wrote:If you count a unit, as deployed, during your deployment step, then you have finished deploying and all the rest of your units go into reserve.
I'm going to need a quote for that one. In fact, it tends to be that deployment is done when all the units that you were going to use were deployed and have Scouted.
Ceann wrote:This is the same foolery that was attempted with the chainfist/bike. There is no rule telling you to deploy your units one a time, there is only rules tell you to deploy ALL of units. Then a later rule notated anything not deployed goes into reserves.
No, a different tom-follery is going on. You are saying that all of the units are being deployed at the same time while providing no written statement that this is in consideration.
Remember, in order to be considered happening "at the same time" we need instructions telling us to consider them happening "at the same time." It doesn't go the other way.
Ceann wrote:Your units in the deployment step have TWO states they can be in, deploying or deployed. Once you count any unit as a deployed unit then you are on step 4 of the page provided and everything else you have yet to place would automatically be in reserves.
Step 2. The side DEPLOYING first, must setup all the units in their army.
Step 4. The player that DEPLOYED first.
This clearly shows us that once you complete step 2 the units have deployed, if you count a unit as deployed in step 2 then you have deployed all of your army that you wished to deploy. It doesn't say "at the same time" but there is no other time where a unit can be on the table and in a deployed state and another unit on the table and in a deploying state, except after the game has started.
You are conflating "side" with "units" in that quote. This is the same as considering "army" and "units" the same thing. They are not the same thing, so that consideration is out the door.
While you are deploying your army, your units are transitioning from being "not deployed" to "deployed", "Reserves", or (in the case of OP) "Awaiting Conjuration".
While your unit is Charging, you have an initial Charging model which moves, and if that initial Charging model has successfully Charged, the rest of the models are then moved in.
So, do not associate what you are in the middle of doing with what the individual units have, or have not, done, they are not even on the same level of considerations.
doctortom wrote:It may be a conflation, but I would cede that it does indicate what GW is referring to when they mention "deploying for battle" elsewhere in the Come the Apocalypse section, as opposed to merely "deploying"
Sorry, but if deployment is part of "preparing for battle", then there is no required association with deployment for "deploying for battle".
In order for "preparing for battle" to associate "deploying for battle" with deployment, then deployment would be part "of battle" and happen after "preparing for battle" was complete, not the last thing to do for it. Consider what "preparing" means.
Therefore "for battle" can only mean "for the game". At which point, a Deathwing Terminator unit Deep Striking in is "deploying for battle", as they have not deployed yet for the game.
I think I have having some trouble identifying what you actual point of contention is.
The steps I listed are in the BRB as the steps for deploying, step 3 which I didn't note most recently is for your opponent to perform their own deployments.
I still think comparing in game actions, such as shooting and charging to rules prior to the game starting is disingenuous. Charging has language and rules specific to charging, just as wargear has language and rules specific to wargear. If we went through and picked out all of the unique scenarios as examples we would find they all had nothing to be compared against.
So in step 2, your units are either being put onto the board to be deployed or are being placed in reserves, this would be the process of deploying.
We are only provided ONE STEP to put the models on the table, place some in reserves and then declare we are finished. The rules can only look at your deployment when you are actually finished manually moving around the models and placing them.
If Step 2 is your deployment phase, Step 3 is the other player's deployment phase, and Step 4 notates you have DEPLOYED. Then I think it is safe to say that at any point you decide consider a unit as "deployed" instead of deploying you are then finished with Step 2. This means that during your Step 2 as the player you do not have any opportunity to, deploy unit 1, deploy unit 2, deploy unit 3. They are ALL deploying and when you are done with the phase they all deployed, there is nothing in the rules that indicates there is a space of time where you have a deployed unit and a deploying unit on the table at once.
Also deepstrike mishaps give the reasons allowed for a mishap...
BRB 162.
"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."
It has no note or mention of any regard for the CTA rules, it lists the circumstances under which it cannot be deployed. Deepstrike being a special rule also supercedes the standard rules for deploying.
Ceann wrote: I think I have having some trouble identifying what you actual point of contention is.
I honestly do not know why not. I have stated it several times.
The limitation in Come the Apocalypse is when units deploy. Not you as a player. Not your army. Just the individual units. In this consideration, I do not agree that is when multiple units of different Factions Deploy, because it just states units, not multiple units. The reason units is mentioned is because Ally rules, including Come the Apocalypse, are only invoked when two (or more) units from different Factions interact. All the units follow this interaction, not just one or two.
In addition to that, you are combining the concept of the condition of your army to that of the condition of the individual units. Just because you are deploying your army does not ever mean that your units are still deploying. That's poor reasoning.
Ceann wrote: The steps I listed are in the BRB as the steps for deploying, step 3 which I didn't note most recently is for your opponent to perform their own deployments.
Which wasn't addressed or stated as a problem by me.
Ceann wrote: I still think comparing in game actions, such as shooting and charging to rules prior to the game starting is disingenuous. Charging has language and rules specific to charging, just as wargear has language and rules specific to wargear. If we went through and picked out all of the unique scenarios as examples we would find they all had nothing to be compared against.
It's about learning how the language and concepts work in the rulebook. I am not trying to literally transplant the rules, but trying to help you understand the concepts as I see them. I am assuming you are sufficiently familiar with those concepts to be able to use them as representatives of the concepts I am trying to convey.
Ceann wrote: So in step 2, your units are either being put onto the board to be deployed or are being placed in reserves, this would be the process of deploying.
We are only provided ONE STEP to put the models on the table, place some in reserves and then declare we are finished. The rules can only look at your deployment when you are actually finished manually moving around the models and placing them.
If Step 2 is your deployment phase, Step 3 is the other player's deployment phase, and Step 4 notates you have DEPLOYED. Then I think it is safe to say that at any point you decide consider a unit as "deployed" instead of deploying you are then finished with Step 2. This means that during your Step 2 as the player you do not have any opportunity to, deploy unit 1, deploy unit 2, deploy unit 3. They are ALL deploying and when you are done with the phase they all deployed, there is nothing in the rules that indicates there is a space of time where you have a deployed unit and a deploying unit on the table at once.
Again, you are conflating (i.e. combining) the concepts of the army and the unit. You are considering what you are doing is what all the units are doing. Nothing in those steps ever states that the units are not deployed until you go to the next step. That is a fabrication without written support.
Here is from the final paragraph of Deployment:
Whichever method you use, models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone and part of the model outside it!
"Deploy" is being used in both present and past tenses at this point. This is the actual paragraph which talks about going through the process.
Ceann wrote: Also deepstrike mishaps give the reasons allowed for a mishap...
BRB 162.
"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."
It has no note or mention of any regard for the CTA rules, it lists the circumstances under which it cannot be deployed. Deepstrike being a special rule also supercedes the standard rules for deploying.
You chopped off with the first part, "If a unit cannot be deployed" as well, which is a consideration. Units cannot normally be within 1" of an enemy unit they are not Charging. Come the Apocalypse adds on to that 1" limit for deploying, does it not?
When you present your roster to the person you are playing, you present the entire roster, at one time, you don't give it to them unit by unit on different sheets of paper.
If the units are not all deployed at the end of the deployment step, then assuming they deploy one a time in the order of your choice would be the only viable option, unless we are going to assign numbers to our units now and randomly deploy them via rolling dice. I find it to be more common sense it is one step starts with you deploying and ends when you deployed.
Anything other than that is the same scenario as the wargear before where it is assumed you can sequence things in some manner.
I mentioned step 3 to clarify that I hadn't left out something relevant.
The only rule that is from preparing for battle that translates into the game is reserves and that is because it explicitly notates that it starts happening during the game and when it starts happening. I understand again that this does not say "at the same time" however it also does not specify that there is a sequence.
If we look at our other lovely example the Terminator Captain, you had an instance where on his wargear it did not say "X wearing Terminator armor may" because he was already wearing it, thus making the first part of the text redundant and it simply said "X may". If we are going to compare terminology I would stick to terminology from the same chapter of rules or relevant to the action.
I am not intending to conflate or combine anything. We have two steps, one that states we are deploying and another that states we have deployed. The only action between those steps is our opponent deploying and that isn't relevant. Step 4 states deployed and if step 2 is deploying, then I don't see how being considered deployed at the end of step 2 is not the inevitable conclusion, there is no other time where you could be considering deployed.
As for the final paragraph, I don't see any issues with it. Deploy and deploying is the action of deployment. In order to count as deployed, you must deploy within the parameters it describes. Hence you cannot end your deployment step with a unit in impassable terrain, because it cannot be deploy there.
I chopped off the first but, I assumed it wasn't needed as it was the entire reason the topic was being discussed in the first place. The reasons listed after the first part are the reasons that are considered in order to qualify for a mishap.
Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?
YES
And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.
Many of the FAQ answers in the past have come across as, "Yes, you can, but it is stupid."
Ceann wrote:When you present your roster to the person you are playing, you present the entire roster, at one time, you don't give it to them unit by unit on different sheets of paper.
Irrelevant to the discussion at hand since no one has brought this up before as being a problem, one way or another.
Ceann wrote:If the units are not all deployed at the end of the deployment step, then assuming they deploy one a time in the order of your choice would be the only viable option, unless we are going to assign numbers to our units now and randomly deploy them via rolling dice. I find it to be more common sense it is one step starts with you deploying and ends when you deployed.
Your use of "deployed" in the first sentence carries one of two different connotations. First being that their status is changed to "deployed" at the end of the deployment step. The second is that they have gone through the "deploy" process and received a "deployed" status between the beginning and the end of the deployment step.
There are no rules stating that we have to keep a unit's status as "not deployed" till the end of the deployment phase/process. So, applying the first connotation is one without support.
The actual use of the term "deploy" by the rest of the rulebook indicates that a unit is deployed when it is placed on the table. It is not used in any other manner. In most cases, this is the physical models making up the units, while others the Transport they are Embarked on is the only physical model required, but the Embarked unit is still considered deployed. So, the second connotation is supported by the rest of the rulebook's use of the term.
Ceann wrote:Anything other than that is the same scenario as the wargear before where it is assumed you can sequence things in some manner.
Not really. Aside from Infiltrate and Scout's redeployment, there is no need for any type of sequencing, and it can be completely random.
But random or sequenced, why does their status only change at the end of deployment and what is the exact phrase which supports the timing of this status' change?
Ceann wrote:I mentioned step 3 to clarify that I hadn't left out something relevant.
And if the people you are discussing something with don't bring it up, it probably isn't worth bringing it up yourself. It provides an unnecessary tangent.
Ceann wrote:The only rule that is from preparing for battle that translates into the game is reserves and that is because it explicitly notates that it starts happening during the game and when it starts happening. I understand again that this does not say "at the same time" however it also does not specify that there is a sequence.
Hardly. The first thing under Preparing For Battle is "The Mission". That translates in to the game pretty well. The next is "The Armies" whose rules are covered in the previous section. Then comes "The Battlefield" which has HUGE ramifications on the game from deployment zones to Terrain. Then we finally get in to "Deployment" where units are placed on the table or in Reserves. From there it goes in to "First Turn" by which point, I think we're done preparing.
Ceann wrote: If we look at our other lovely example the Terminator Captain, you had an instance where on his wargear it did not say "X wearing Terminator armor may" because he was already wearing it, thus making the first part of the text redundant and it simply said "X may". If we are going to compare terminology I would stick to terminology from the same chapter of rules or relevant to the action.
You mean like "at the same time"? Or "I am in the process of doing this to my large group, so the smaller bits may have completed it on their own while I have been doing so"? They were relevant.
Ceann wrote:I am not intending to conflate or combine anything. We have two steps, one that states we are deploying and another that states we have deployed. The only action between those steps is our opponent deploying and that isn't relevant. Step 4 states deployed and if step 2 is deploying, then I don't see how being considered deployed at the end of step 2 is not the inevitable conclusion, there is no other time where you could be considering deployed.
You are conflating because you are treating as the status of your entire army as being the status of the individual units within them. While the Step talks about one side or another doing things, the actual paragraph talking about it does not state anything about the units not being deployed until the end of any portion of deployment.
Ceann wrote:As for the final paragraph, I don't see any issues with it. Deploy and deploying is the action of deployment. In order to count as deployed, you must deploy within the parameters it describes. Hence you cannot end your deployment step with a unit in impassable terrain, because it cannot be deploy there.
Then you missed the point of why I brought it up. Nothing in that section which covers the restrictions and actions of deploying during deployment consider a change of status for the individual unit. None. In fact, you won't find it anywhere but your own assumptions.
Ceann wrote:I chopped off the first but, I assumed it wasn't needed as it was the entire reason the topic was being discussed in the first place. The reasons listed after the first part are the reasons that are considered in order to qualify for a mishap.
Which are all reasons why a unit would not be able to deploy. CTA is another case, an advanced case, but still a case that is needed. The list is not exclusionary.
Thank you Charistoph, I can read the rulebook as well.
Summon = Yes
Deploy = Yes
Mishap = Yes, if you scatter onto enemy models, etc just like everyone else.
Explain to me then the process of the deployment phase.
When is a unit deployed? You seem to have the answer.
We know that the four deployment steps provided tell us we are deploying on step 2 and on step for we are told that we deployed. So it seems to have happened somewhere in there and not during our opponents turn.
My mentioning of step 3 wasn't for you, it was for someone else but I appreciate your dedicated attention towards it.
There is no "not deployed" status, anything that you didn't deploy is in reserves, anything else was obviously not involved in the first place. Part of the process of deploying is determining what you will deploy and what you will reserve.
The paragraph also does not say anything about units being deployed DURING any portion of deployment. Whether they are holding hands and deploying together, or standing in a line and deploying. At the end of the step they are all deployed or in reserves, hence completing the deploying process you might want to argue about how they reached this state, but they reach it nonetheless.
The only thing we know is that once they ARE deployed, there is a set of criteria that determines where they could have been deployed and where they could not. You can no more prove it happens one at a time than I can prove its at the same time, whatever happened during the deployment step, is deploying and once the battle starts THEY are not doing it collectively.
You are right the section doesn't say anything about it. All we know is that by step 4 it magically happened somehow, unless it stating the player who "deployed" first is a baseless assumption on my part also.
Please point out where it says the list is not exclusionary.
Ceann wrote: Explain to me then the process of the deployment phase.
When is a unit deployed? You seem to have the answer.
How many more times would you have me say it?
A unit is deployed when all of its models are placed on the table for the game. This can happen before the game during deployment. It can happen when a unit walks on from Reserves. It can happen when a unit Deep Strikes. It can happen when a unit arrives from Outflank. No provisions are allowed for a unit to be partially deployed.
Ceann wrote: We know that the four deployment steps provided tell us we are deploying on step 2 and on step for we are told that we deployed. So it seems to have happened somewhere in there and not during our opponents turn.
Well, that's for that side, yes.
Ceann wrote: There is no "not deployed" status, anything that you didn't deploy is in reserves, anything else was obviously not involved in the first place. Part of the process of deploying is determining what you will deploy and what you will reserve.
Not entirely true. Being in Reserves is "not deployed", while there is no official status called that, it is pretty self-explanatory, and no official status of "deployed", either. They cannot be deployed because the act of Arriving From Reserves is deploying. If they were deployed, there would be no reason to pull them out from Reserves.
Any unit forced in to Reserves and cannot move is "destroyed". And then there is the main subject of this thread, units which were not purchased but are set aside for Conjuration. They are not in Reserves, they are just models awaiting a Psychic Power to pull them in from Deep Strike.
Ceann wrote: The paragraph also does not say anything about units being deployed DURING any portion of deployment. Whether they are holding hands and deploying together, or standing in a line and deploying. At the end of the step they are all deployed or in reserves, hence completing the deploying process you might want to argue about how they reached this state, but they reach it nonetheless.
Well considering how something is deployed during the rest of the rules which talk about deploying, why should I use any other standard?
Ceann wrote: The only thing we know is that once they ARE deployed, there is a set of criteria that determines where they could have been deployed and where they could not. You can no more prove it happens one at a time than I can prove its at the same time, whatever happened during the deployment step, is deploying and once the battle starts THEY are not doing it collectively.
What happens during the deployment part of Preparing For Battle (previously known as the Deployment Phase in Editions past) is you deploying your army. But again, just because the army is deploying, doesn't mean that units cannot be deployed in that process any more than models can be moved while a unit is Charging. This is the conflation that you are performing here.
Since being deployed can happen with a unit during the game and it follows some standard guidelines, I would need something specific to reconsider those guidelines. You have presented nothing to change that since you are focusing on the wrong level of consideration. You are focusing on the army when the Ally rules are concerned only with the units.
Ceann wrote: You are right the section doesn't say anything about it. All we know is that by step 4 it magically happened somehow, unless it stating the player who "deployed" first is a baseless assumption on my part also.
Again, consider how the rest of the rulebook considers a unit deployed, and then try and find what actively counters that criteria for Deployment. You will find that it does not do so.
Ceann wrote: Please point out where it says the list is not exclusionary.
By not stating that it is only by those two specific criteria.
You really should learn to parse quote. It makes tracking what you are responding to easier.
Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?
YES
And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.
You (and others) have invented this rule. Cite the rule that states you Mishap. Deepstrike Mishaps gives the conditions for a mishap, summoning is not one of them.
Maybe you should read the thread first... the arguments have been clearly stated.
"because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model."
CTA states that these models are treated as "enemy models" and that you cannot deploy within 12" of them. Summons are brought in using the deepstrike rules which is a deployment.
So your contention is baseless. The only argument that can be made is based on the wording of deployment rules and the CTA rules.
Rolsheen wrote:Can come the apocalypse allies summon daemons?
YES
And then they run in to the point where units cannot deploy for battle within 12" of a unit they have a CTA relationship with, and therefore Mishap.
You (and others) have invented this rule. Cite the rule that states you Mishap. Deepstrike Mishaps gives the conditions for a mishap, summoning is not one of them.
Nope, I have invented nothing. CTA disallows for deploying within 12" of each other. What happens when a Deep Striking model or unit cannot be deployed?
Ceann wrote:CTA states that these models are treated as "enemy models" and that you cannot deploy within 12" of them. Summons are brought in using the deepstrike rules which is a deployment.
Deep Strike is deploying, not deployment. Deployment happens before the game begins, while deploying happens during deployment and any method of arriving from Reserves.
You and I can agree to disagree on how we interpret deploying and deployment.
I was merely illuminating the gentlemen as to the fact that he was coming into the argument unawares of where the actual argument sat as a point of contention.
Ceann wrote: You and I can agree to disagree on how we interpret deploying and deployment.
I was merely illuminating the gentlemen as to the fact that he was coming into the argument unawares of where the actual argument sat as a point of contention.
You were using the terms out of the context the rulebook uses them. "Deployment" is never stated during Deep Strike. Deployment is defined as part of Preparing For Battle, and every other reference to "deployment" refers back exactly to that point. "Deploy" is used during deployment, Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout, Outflank, and Reserves as the act of placing units on the table.
Noted under Preparing Reserves:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.
Under Combined Reserve Units:
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.
Under Arriving From Reserves:
...
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
So, yeah, the rulebook notes a difference in their use, so why shouldn't I?
Well the rulebook also has a section called special rules and when a special conflicts with a normal rule the special rule takes precedence.
Please notate the difference.
CTA states 12"
Deepstrike states 1"
But clearly we must ignore that deepstriking is a special rule.
We wouldn't ignore what a deployment rule says in regards to a special rule, we would never do that.
Except in the case of where it breaks a rule...oh wait, its doing that isn't it?
We follow infiltrating too don't we? And scouting?
Darn special rules, so clever.
Ceann wrote: Wow the rulebook notes the difference... amazing.
Well the rulebook also has a section called special rules and when a special conflicts with a normal rule the special rule takes precedence.
Please notate the difference.
CTA states 12"
Deepstrike states 1"
But clearly we must ignore that deepstriking is a special rule.
We wouldn't ignore what a deployment rule says in regards to a special rule, we would never do that.
Except in the case of where it breaks a rule...oh wait, its doing that isn't it?
We follow infiltrating too don't we? And scouting?
Darn special rules, so clever.
CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?
CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?
GW writing often only addresses the default and rarely considers any other special rules that may be interacting with them. It's one of the problems with GW rule writing.
CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?
No...? It is itself a rule about adding ALLIES to your army that are treated as "enemy units". How can the rule be breaking itself.
CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?
It is the rule, it is telling you the rules for how these types of allies are added into your army and the restrictions involved.
This is about as disingenuous as saying a bolter is breaking the rules because a bolt pistol told you it shoots a shorter range.
Is deepstriking a special rule that supersedes these circumstances? Yes. It is in the special rules section after all.
CTA involves adding enemy units in to your army. Is that not breaking a rule?
No...? It is itself a rule about adding ALLIES to your army that are treated as "enemy units". How can the rule be breaking itself.
All special rules are rules themselves.
The standard game operates under the assumption that all units in your army are of the same Faction. This is why Ally rules are saved until later on in the book and the last thing noted in Choosing Your Army.
CTA further changes how close those enemy models can be when deployed from 1" to 12". Is that not breaking a rule?
It is the rule, it is telling you the rules for how these types of allies are added into your army and the restrictions involved.
This is about as disingenuous as saying a bolter is breaking the rules because a bolt pistol told you it shoots a shorter range.
It is the standard rule that a model cannot get closer than 1" to an enemy model. In the MOVEMENT PHASE, under Movement Distance:
Models in the Way
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.
CTA changes that to 12" for the purposes of deploying. That is bending or breaking the game's rules.
Ceann wrote: Is come the apocalypse listed in the special rules section?
No.
Is deepstrike? Yes.
So? Location of a Special Rule means nothing. Not all Special Rules are listed in the Special Rules section. Just "Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list.", (BRB, Special Rules, What Special Rules Do I Have?, 3 pa).
Ceann wrote: Does the special rules section notate it supercedes rules the conflict with it? Yes.
Deep Strike never addresses Ally rules any more then Assault Vehicle addresses Deep Strike or Arriving From Reserves.
Ceann wrote: How can the CTA rule be breaking a rule when it, itself, is the very rule stating what to do.
Because CTA is a special rule. It operates not at the basic level of the game's rules. It is an Advanced Rule. It is counter to the normal rules for deployment and how close you can move to an Enemy unit.
*Facepalm*
OK sure, RAW they cant be summoned due to deploying within 12" yada yada
But lets be honest here
A. People have been doing it since 7th dropped
B. Going "WELL ACTUALLY" after someone tries to summon daemons is a BAD MOVE
C. Summoning Daemons is the basis for MANY lists
CTA is a basic rule for allies, not a special rule. The notation of the special rules section is to inform you that special rules will be on datasheets and codex and that the list is not all inclusive.
It is not a paintbrush handed to you to paint anything you perceive as a special rule to be one.
Ceann wrote: CTA is a basic rule for allies, not a special rule. The notation of the special rules section is to inform you that special rules will be on datasheets and codex and that the list is not all inclusive.
It is not a paintbrush handed to you to paint anything you perceive as a special rule to be one.
That doesn't define what a basic rule is, though. Allies, in and of themselves, are advanced rules, even special rules.
Basic rules are:
apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules:
apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Special rules:
Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.
While CTA is basic to Allies rules, Ally rules are not basic to the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
commander dante wrote: *Facepalm*
OK sure, RAW they cant be summoned due to deploying within 12" yada yada
But lets be honest here
A. People have been doing it since 7th dropped
B. Going "WELL ACTUALLY" after someone tries to summon daemons is a BAD MOVE
C. Summoning Daemons is the basis for MANY lists
Technically this would apply just as much to Sternguard riding Drop Pods or any of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force just as much as it would to any Conjured Daemons.
But remember that the original question on the thread was, "why would this be a problem?" The problem is that the rules were not written to take this consideration in to account. And I was providing the written reason for this problem. People have been trying to wave away the issue by denying how the rulebook structures everything else in connection to it.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Maelific Daemonology was written before CTA were allowed to play in your army and came with that restriction. So many of the BRB changes between 6th and 7th show this short-sightedness, such as lousy explanation for Super-Heavy Shooting with the Shooting Sequence or the definition of Psyker for the Psychic Phase rules.
Personally, I have no problem if someone wanted to do Ultramarines summoning Daemons (Black Templars summoning Daemons I would have some problems with, mostly due to breaking their Tactics to do it) in a game. I am merely pointing out what the written rules are.
Where does it say "Deploying" and "deploying for battle" are different in the rules?
CtA allies specify 'when deploying for battle' as the condition when you cannot deploy within 12".
Spoiler:
Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
The only thing that remains to be done is the deployment of the two armies. If you are
using a Warhammer 40,000 mission, it will tell you how to deploy the armies taking part
in the battle. You will need to agree on the method you will use in your own games.
We’ve included rules for the most common method used to deploy here. This is often
referred to as the ‘Standard Deployment Method’ and is the method used in the majority
of Warhammer 40,000 missions. You should feel free to devise other methods for your
own game if you prefer. For example, some players like to place a screen across the centre
of the table so that their armies can deploy in secret; others draw a map showing where
they plan to deploy their units, and so on.
Whichever method you use, models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or
be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or
Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units
may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully
within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone
and part of the model outside it!
There is the ruling. nowhere does it state anything about summoning
Where does it say "Deploying" and "deploying for battle" are different in the rules?
CtA allies specify 'when deploying for battle' as the condition when you cannot deploy within 12".
Spoiler:
Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.
Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.
Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.
Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?
The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.
What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?
The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
'Deploying' as a general term can occur during the game.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
Summoning uses Deep Strike rules. The Deep strike USR says those models are being deployed. Both "being deployed" and "being deployed for battle" mean the same thing, so they are in fact the same thing.
Where do you see in the BRB that 'deploying' and 'deploying for battle' mean the same thing?
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
'Deploying for battle' refers to the deployment that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
We don't need any of that.
Deepstrike is a special rule.
Deepstrike states the circumstances that will cause a mishap.
1" of an enemy.
CTA is a rule for allies, it is not a special rule.
Deepstrike supercedes whatever rules are for CTA.
Deepstrike away.
What are deep strikers deploying for then? An ice cream social?
The only thing there is to deploy for is a battle. When "deploying for battle" is written, the "for battle" part is redundant. Both are deploying, one just is adding fluffy writing.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
'Deploying' as a general term can occur during the game.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"
The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"
The rules don't agree with you.
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"
The rules don't agree with you.
'Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
CTA has some verbiage about deploying withing 12" of CTA units. Which leads some to think that if you summon demons because the unit is CTA they automatically mishap.
CTA has some verbiage about deploying withing 12" of CTA units. Which leads some to think that if you summon demons because the unit is CTA the automatically mishap.
The not a conflict. That's the rules functioning. Deep striking tells you how to resolve rules when deep strikers can't be deployed. CTA is just another example of a place models can't be deployed (much like on Impassible Terrain is a place models can't be deployed)
A rules conflict is like Invisiblity vs Kharn's Gorechild. Invis makes you hit on 6+, Kharn makes you hit on 2+. It's a conflict because you can't follow both rules, one has to be broken.
The deepstrike rules explicitly state the circumstances that cause a deepstrike mishap to occur.
It only says 1"
What CTA says is not relevant because deepstrike is a special rule, which is there bending or breaking the CTA rule.
I agree there is no conflict, a special rule vs a special rule would be a conflict but some people think everything at grandma's house is a special rule.
The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"
The rules don't agree with you.
'Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Fixed it for you
Ah, it looks like you are being silly. Changing what I mark in red does not change what the rules say.
Does this quote say just 'deploy' without the additional 'for battle' or 'deploy for battle'?
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
The rules don't say that "deploying for battle" is a specific deploying. They are using general term "deploying" and then telling you when and where you "deploy"
The rules don't agree with you.
'Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Fixed it for you
Ah, it looks like you are being silly. Changing what I mark in red does not change what the rules say.
Does this quote say just 'deploy' without the additional 'for battle' or 'deploy for battle'?
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
No it's showing you are reading the rule
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
No it's showing you are reading the rules wrong. You read "deploy" as its own term, not "deploy to battle"
No it's showing you are reading the rules wrong. You read "deploy" as its own term, not "deploy to battle"
The phrase is 'deploy for battle' not 'deploy to battle'. It's important to pay attention to what you read.
'Deploy for battle' is a specific deploying.
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
Which of these rules is in the BRB?
1) Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
2) Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
I'd throw in my lot to lock the thread. I feel like people have made their arguments, the poll is clearly in favour of "yes", there isn't anything relevant left to add and this thread has turned into a pissing contest. Sorry about the language.
CrownAxe wrote: My argument is the same regardless if it's for battle or to battle
Cool.
Your argument has zero rules support. My argument has rules support. So are you done here?
Summary
Spoiler:
'Deploy for battle' is a specific deploying.
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
CrownAxe wrote: My argument is the same regardless if it's for battle or to battle
Cool.
Your argument has zero rules support. My argument has rules support. So are you done here?
Summary
Spoiler:
'Deploy for battle' is a specific deploying.
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
Your argument has zero rules support. My argument has rules support. So are you done here?
Your argument has zero rules support. My argument has rules support. So are you done here?
What rules support your argument? You can check my summary for the ones that support mine.
Summary
Spoiler:
'Deploy for battle' is a specific deploying.
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
If summoning is not 'deploying for battle' then it is not subject to Come the Apocalypse rule.
Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
Roknar wrote: I'd throw in my lot to lock the thread. I feel like people have made their arguments, the poll is clearly in favour of "yes", there isn't anything relevant left to add and this thread has turned into a pissing contest. Sorry about the language.
mchammadad wrote:(Deployment subtitle- Preparing for battle BRB)
There is where 'Deploying for battle' is
Not so hard when you apply common sense.
DEPLOYMENT
The only thing that remains to be done is the deployment of the two armies. If you are using a Warhammer 40,000 mission, it will tell you how to deploy the armies taking part in the battle. You will need to agree on the method you will use in your own games. We’ve included rules for the most common method used to deploy here. This is often referred to as the ‘Standard Deployment Method’ and is the method used in the majority of Warhammer 40,000 missions. You should feel free to devise other methods for your own game if you prefer. For example, some players like to place a screen across the centre of the table so that their armies can deploy in secret; others draw a map showing where they plan to deploy their units, and so on.
Whichever method you use, models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone and part of the model outside it!
There is the ruling. nowhere does it state anything about summoning
Nothing in that states, "for battle".
Here is where it states "deploy for battle":
Game Turns and Player Turns > 'Before the Game Beings' and 'At the End of the Game':
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
And the aforementioned Come the Apocalypse:
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
One is concerned when the armies are being deployed for battle (which would be deployment), and the other is when at least one of the units are being deployed (which can be deployment or any variant of Arriving for Reserves).
Deployment is what happens before the game begins. Deploying is when you put units on the table. Deep Striking puts units on the table. Conjuring and Summoning is Deep Striking.
Ceann wrote:The deepstrike rules explicitly state the circumstances that cause a deepstrike mishap to occur.
It only says 1"
What CTA says is not relevant because deepstrike is a special rule, which is there bending or breaking the CTA rule.
I agree there is no conflict, a special rule vs a special rule would be a conflict but some people think everything at grandma's house is a special rule.
Way to read an example as a limitation. The requirement is, "if they cannot be deployed". The 1" is given as the example because that is the standard distance your armies models must maintain from an enemy model. CTA changes that range for deploying from 1" to 12".
Here is where it states "deploy for battle":
Game Turns and Player Turns > 'Before the Game Beings' and 'At the End of the Game':
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
And the aforementioned Come the Apocalypse:
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
One is concerned when the armies are being deployed for battle (which would be deployment), and the other is when at least one of the units are being deployed (which can be deployment or any variant of Arriving for Reserves).
I have marked in red for you what is incorrect and has no rules support and that you are literally making up. Both are concerned with when the armies are being deployed for battle (which would be deployment).
'Deploy for battle' is a specific deploying.
Spoiler:
‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.
Per the rules, 'deploying for battle' is a specific deploying that happens Before the Game Begins during the Preparing for Battle step.
So again, where does it say that summoning is 'deploying for battle'?
If summoning is not 'deploying for battle' then it is not subject to Come the Apocalypse rule.
Spoiler:
Come the Apocalypse
Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.
