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8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 15:27:38


Post by: lindsay40k


I'm starting this thread to hear from other followers of the eightfold path (or one path, for those monolatrists out there) and discuss how we're preparing for 8ed, what we're looking forward to about it, what we're hoping for, and so on.

Me? I'm currently maining Word Bearers, with lists usually starting with some Possessed and a Summoner and a Flyer. 8ed prep is mostly getting lots of CSM built and painted, with plenty of heavy & special weapons. I'd already filled my bits box with a goal of building a Havoc Company (back when we could adapt Astartes formations); and all this business about more mobile heavy weapons, and AP blasting through cover, and out of sequence actions, and a Detachment of 1HQ/1T/5+HS, has got me excited to try a solid firebase. Getting an Icon made for each of the Gods, as well - if Tzeentch still gives us incendiary Heavy Bolter rounds and Slaanesh still improves Plasma Gunner survivability by 33%, I'm down with that

Still going to be fielding a Daemonologist. If the Generals' Handbook is anything to go by, we'll be setting aside a portion of our points that will act as a 'budget' for summoned units. I like this idea - I was never a fan of trying to fill the table with whatever gribblies I could manifest, I approached Daemonology as a means to trade a Sorcerer for units that can be cherry-picked for your opponent. And if it's as safe as more mundane casting, no more having to take a Palanquin and an extra level if you want your caster to not die of a stroke on the second turn.

Though I'm not too keen on the whole 'stronger spells (units) are harder to cast (summon)' business in AoS. I hope we get some means to trade safety (be it for our Sorcerers or their henchmen) for reliability - we're supposed to be all about disposable Cultists. What I'd really like is, instead of just budgeting like 300pts as the limit of the value of Daemons we can summon, instead we get to choose during setup to literally sacrifice units to convert their points value into our Daemons budget. How characterful would that be - bring along a rabble of Lost and Damned, and if your opponent has some unit that you can't deal with, put a few dozen Cultists to the sword and use their deaths to attract a Bloodthirster!

I wait with bated breath to see if Legions (and the two Renegades) get their own special rules. Fingers crossed. I hope my Hell Talon will still be the bane of most aircraft. It's so much fun to get up their exhausts and unload those Soviet-style OP Autocannons into them


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 15:32:43


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Bit early..

I am looking at my Lords on Juggernaughts and.. crossing my fingers.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:26:37


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


I honestly hope the legions are split into a completely different set of CSM than renegades. Throughout 40k's history, their attempts at reconciling renegade marines and the original Heresy traitors often resulted in nerfed lists for both, as well as a lot of fridge logic.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:31:42


Post by: ZebioLizard2


My Sonics are ignoring new cover saves so I'm feelin great! Though now it's a question of what will the Mark of Slaanesh do this edition. Pity us Slaanesh users, for we will never have a mark as consistent as the other three.


I wait with bated breath to see if Legions (and the two Renegades) get their own special rules.
They already mentioned that Chapter Tactics/Legions will return in 8th. They KNOW how much we hated that whole split/renegade/ALL LEGIONS ARE WARBANDS bs they tried forcing down our throats with 4th edition and up.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:39:46


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


You Noise Marines had a more consistent mark than Khorne did The only change I remember was from 3th edition to 3.5 where it was a +1 attack to +1 initiative. Khorne went from +1 strength to +1 attack to giving Rage and Counter Attack.

And don't even get me started on Tzeentch .


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:41:09


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Oh wow I entirely forgot that's what the MoK did back then because Furious Charge didn't exist then... And that last one felt like change for the sake of change because they felt MoK was too powerful just giving +1A for some reason.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:47:59


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


I think only MoN was consistent throughout the editions, granting a flat out +1 Toughness. Also only berserkers got Furious Charge; normal Marines either got +1 attack or the insult that was Rage+ Counter Attack. Furious charge either came from Icons or detachment rules.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 16:58:06


Post by: Nvs


It's too early to tell really. There's a lot that needs fixing in order to make CSM good in my opinion.

As a Thousand Sons player, the overall point cost for Rubric units needs to be reduced. Even if flamers are as powerful as they seem, it's not realistic to play Thousand Sons where the Rubric squads form the backbone of your force.

On top of that, the Mark of Tzeentch has never really been worth its cost. The Invuln save has never been good on anything but characters because of things like cover invalidating it. If you look at the Traitor Legions book, a lot of the legions that people consider top tier do so because they can take marked standard Traitor Marine units as a 'fluffy' alternative to the cult units to bulk out their numbers. This isn't the case with the MoT and Traitor Marine squads. They just aren't worth it.

Next is the new psychic phase. It is seems like powers will be easier to nullify with the new psychic phase. We haven't heard if CSM will need a minimum of 1 power based off their mark, but it's reasonable to assume yes. We also have no way of knowing if we'll get god specific power tables, or just a generic CSM one as a whole.

And then finally we have the Scarab Occult terminators that already outshine the Rubric unit in almost every way. But when you factor in they don't have S&P (Rubrics will no doubt have a 3" movement or something silly), the new stat line implies 2 wounds each, and the aspiring sorcerer gets 2 wounds (maybe 3 next edition?) and mastery 2 so he can actually have useful powers.

And that's ignoring everything else wrong with the CSM book that could also be taken in a Thousand Sons unit.

So yea, it's too early to tell. I'm holding my breath hoping to be amazed, but I'm also used to being disappointed.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 17:38:08


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


Imagine if T-sons got back their 3rd ed rule of only being able to be harmed by S5 or greater weapons. Or the second wound they had in 3.5


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 19:28:32


Post by: Nvs


 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Imagine if T-sons got back their 3rd ed rule of only being able to be harmed by S5 or greater weapons. Or the second wound they had in 3.5


Which would have been fine. Giving them terminator kind of survivability without the Terminator armor would have made them a unique unit in the Chaos Codex. The problem now is that they have a Thousand Sons Terminator unit. So how do you make the Rubrics stand out when you have a Terminator unit too? Especially when it looks like the standard Terminator profile is now 2 wounds.

Really looks like the only thing the Rubric unit is going to end up bringing to the table is a CSM all flamethrower unit?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 19:28:34


Post by: lindsay40k


Considering Veterans get 2W, it's anybody's guess how Rubricae are going to look.

Though they do bring more than flamethrowers - don't forget they have an embedded Psyker. With DTW seemingly getting rationed and limited to proximity of your own casters, that's not bad for what is usually a Troops unit.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 19:45:51


Post by: Loopstah


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Bit early..

I am looking at my Lords on Juggernaughts and.. crossing my fingers.


Sadly they don't make models for them so I'm expecting them to get no rules support when 8th drops, same with Nurgle Sorcerers on Palanquins.

At least I can just use my Khorne Lords on Juggernauts in AoS as I hadn't gotten around to converting them into CSM yet, not sure if I'll ever need three of them at once though.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 20:34:23


Post by: techsoldaten


Good to see people focusing on cult troops and how they will perform. The games designers have been vocal about the idea that every unit in a faction will be playable, and I hope this translates to 'we are going to make the points work for now-overpriced units.'

There are so many things they could improve. Here's what I am going to be looking for when the new edition hits.

1) Possessed (survive to get into the fight)

2) Noise Marines (no more salvo rules)

3) Rhinos (no more assault vehicle rules)

4) Dark Apostle (delivery options, terminator armor options)

5) Warpsmith (same)

Bonus Points) Drop Pods (very wishful thinking)





8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 20:55:15


Post by: Rippy


Good day to my fellow pus filled, cocaine snorting, blood drinking and magic wielding members of the dark path!

I am just looking forward to my spiritual liege. No, not that hack Roboute, but of course Big M!
Mortarion in the corpse and pus himself!
Also I am looking forward to the new death guard, I never purchased Terminators for my force, but their rules are looking to be nice, and the new models beautiful!

Plus with DG getting early focus, there will be a campaign etc!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and another thing I want is rules for the Leviathan Siege Dreadnought for chaos in 40k. Perty pls Lord GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Bit early..

I am looking at my Lords on Juggernaughts and.. crossing my fingers.

I am feeling this with my Plague Hulk of Nurgle.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 21:48:15


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


Nvs wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Imagine if T-sons got back their 3rd ed rule of only being able to be harmed by S5 or greater weapons. Or the second wound they had in 3.5


Which would have been fine. Giving them terminator kind of survivability without the Terminator armor would have made them a unique unit in the Chaos Codex. The problem now is that they have a Thousand Sons Terminator unit. So how do you make the Rubrics stand out when you have a Terminator unit too? Especially when it looks like the standard Terminator profile is now 2 wounds.

Really looks like the only thing the Rubric unit is going to end up bringing to the table is a CSM all flamethrower unit?


Considering the new edition is doing away with cover (I think?) as a save and AP being done as a modifier rather than an all-or-nothing, and vehicles getting armor saves now, I can see T-sons getting a decent buff straight out of the gate, since they now go from dedicated MEQ blenders with a Sorceror to basically running mini-plasma guns.

Personally I think a good way of making fluff = rules is if Rubrics and Rubric Terminators can only be wounded by hits that completely ignore their armor (they keep the invul save). In effect their armor save is only there to determine what can wound them and it would be fluffy since Rubrics of all kinds are just animated suits of armor with trapped souls; you can't really harm what's inside without breaching the armor. This would put Rubrics and Rubric Terminators on different playing fields as it takes different weapons to ignore their armor. However this is liable to either make them heinously overpowered (by being ridiculously hard to put down), or heinously overcosted (to compensate for being ridiculously hard to put down).

Personally I think giving them +1 wound would be enough (and make terminators 3 wounds). It's a lot cleaner way to represent their durability without an excessive amount of rules.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/01 22:39:00


Post by: frozenwastes


I want a grand alliance type approach so I can mix all the Tzeentch stuff at once. Like Rubric marines, other non-Thoursand Suns Tzeentch allied marines, tzaangors, cultists, traitor guard, daemons, the whole deal. I want to run no duplicate units at all and have all the Tzeentch keyworded and any undivided stuff I think is cool.

Hopefully they do a daily post on their community site about keywords and building armies for different approaches to play.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 01:46:46


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm. 2W Possessed would be pretty damn (aha) viable. But if Rubricae get that, and Chosen get it for parity with Veterans, and with Oblits and Muties also around, would this just be making Chaos into the multi-wound infantry army? That would go some way to making them feel like the robust Heresy era Legions in contrast to the more refined tactical 41st Millennium loyalists. Though, I'd perhaps prefer these units to have some variation in their 'harder to kill' rule; "This model is made of dust, +1W; this model has seen hundreds of battlefields, +1W; this model harbours a daemon, +1W".


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 01:57:54


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


Variation would be nice but it would just be throwing all those bloated rules back into a system trying to cleanse itself of bloated rules, so flat stat increases might be better overall. Maybe nurgle marines can switch to being wound-base tanking while toughness/armor based tanking can be given to the Rubricae.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 02:43:32


Post by: Brutus_Apex


I attempted to re-start my Black legion back in 6th when they got the new codex only to find out that the codex was as bad, if not worse that its predecessor.

Consequently I have roughly 2K points of Black Legion painted but 10000 points sitting on a shelf unpainted.

I'm not really sure where to go from here.

I was a big Fantasy player but they killed fantasy, I love Chaos but they ignored them for over a decade. I like close combat armies but 6th and 7th were terrible editions for that. It kinda seems like GW has pretty much just gak all over everything I've liked for the last 10 years.

I hate AOS but the rules kinda seem to be swinging that way. From what I've read it, 8th seems like it could be good. I'm still waiting to find out if Characters can join units. If they can't, I'm absolutely not playing this game anymore, thats a huge deal breaker for me.

I'm kind of curious to see if basic Chaos Marines get an update in the model department. We're kind of looking a little old.

Either way. My ultimate goal is a 10000+ point Black Legion Crusade with Renegade Chaos Knights and World Eater Allies Vs. 10000+ points Black Templars Crusade with Imperial Knight House Terryn and Grey Knight allies.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 03:47:21


Post by: lindsay40k


That's a pretty epic goal, @Brutus_Apex! Hope to see a blog of it some day!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 04:16:00


Post by: Quarterdime


Well, I'm mostly building a mono-nurgle daemons list because nurgle's my second favorite god next to slaanesh and slaanesh has 0 support from the devs, but have been spending more time recently on Blue and Brimstone horrors because I did have some Daemons of Tzeentch lying around from before I dedicated myself to one god...

Anyway, Nurgle daemons are heavily reliant on being able to deep strike, which they can't do in Age of Sigmar without being summoned in. However, with so many other units dependent on deep striking, I doubt they'll get rid of deep striking.

But if summoning is going to work like in Age of Sigmar, there really won't be much difference between summoning and deep striking for Chaos Daemons. Comparing the current deep strike rules with the current rules for summoning daemons in Age of Sigmar, I'd say that summoning will function as an upgrade. There are already several upgrade items in the chaos daemons codex that remove scatter, and in Age of Sigmar you don't even have to deploy in a tight bunch; you could get precision strikes in. But once again, since everything's being changed, the question then becomes "will positioning even matter?" With the removal of armor facing I'm seeing less reasons to flank the opponent aside from artificially created mission objectives. Ugh. As a daemons player my army is the most at risk from a rules overhaul.

So with that in mind, I'm going to play it safe and just crank out blue horrors, brimstone horrors, and then more plaguebearers.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 07:26:23


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I want to field a fluffy Death Guard list - foot slogging plague marines + Terminators + 3 Helbrutes. I want command points for using squads of 7 marines. I also hope possessed will be worth their points. What I'm most excited about is the fact that they're playtesting. I want to be able to field whatever I want and still stand a chance.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 07:49:11


Post by: Quarterdime


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I want to field a fluffy Death Guard list - foot slogging plague marines + Terminators + 3 Helbrutes. I want command points for using squads of 7 marines. I also hope possessed will be worth their points. What I'm most excited about is the fact that they're playtesting. I want to be able to field whatever I want and still stand a chance.

No arguments there.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 08:42:50


Post by: Poly Ranger


As long as they don't nerf Daemon Princes, Renegades, new DG durability, Daemon Weapons, Spell Familiars, and much of the FW vehicles... I'll be happy.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 09:36:56


Post by: PimpMasterGeneral


I just hope they don't nerf my beloved Iron Warrior Autocannon Havocs, Typhon and my recently started Renegade/ Plague Zombie army.

If they give Chaos Spawn the aos treatment (2D6 Move) i will literally start crying and curse GW for all eternity.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 09:43:05


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Poly Ranger wrote:
As long as they don't nerf Daemon Princes, Renegades, new DG durability, Daemon Weapons, Spell Familiars, and much of the FW vehicles... I'll be happy.


Renegades.. are unlikely to be anything like what they are now. The FW models will get rules.. But beyond that nothing is guaranteed.

DPs might get better.. spell familiars may disappear .. I hope not, as new psychic seems less reliable(but more distributed).

FW may not release rules for their OOP vehicles.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 14:28:47


Post by: Roknar


I'm trying not to get caught up in mind games. I'll just wait and see what we get when we get it. I am wondering how Nu marines will affect us though. For me, it's all but certain at this point that nu marines are going to the sigmarines of 40k and replacing the marines we have now over time. I'm wondering how or if that would affect csm.

WILD speculation here, but isn't there a miffed thunder warrior still out there somewhere that has somehow managed to to survive?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 14:33:16


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Roknar wrote:
I'm trying not to get caught up in mind games. I'll just wait and see what we get when we get it. I am wondering how Nu marines will affect us though. For me, it's all but certain at this point that nu marines are going to the sigmarines of 40k and replacing the marines we have now over time. I'm wondering how or if that would affect csm.

WILD speculation here, but isn't there a miffed thunder warrior still out there somewhere that has somehow managed to to survive?
Several actually.

Also Slaaneshi Daemons got a mention today in the fight article. It's a good day to be getting so much excess.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 15:52:03


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 Roknar wrote:

WILD speculation here, but isn't there a miffed thunder warrior still out there somewhere that has somehow managed to to survive?


Ahh I would love that. This ties into the fluff of my personal force (which I would never share , as it's silly).

There are a couple of TW active in the 30k era. Nothing in 40k IIRC , which makes sense as they're engineered to die.

TBH I hope chaos don't get hit by numarine syndrome like empire have in AOS. We're getting a good nurgle release, and probably khorne and slaanesh down the line.
If we get traitor numarines... Haa


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 16:13:17


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


I wish foot Daemon Princes would be useful.

I love the 3.5 edition model without the dragon wings but I can never run it because Winged Princes have dominated the meta since...forever.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 17:21:12


Post by: Nightlord1987


I am nearly competed with my decade long Death Guard collection, only for all new stuff to come out. Not that I'm complaining too much... I've decided to hold off on Night Lords builds until the new edition. But I think my flamer theme might actually be viable now!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 20:59:26


Post by: ScarVet101


I'd actually love to see something similar to AOS where the 4 powers have there own books so no need for a Daemons book then they give some more detailed lover to the 5 undivided legions and Dark Mechanicus in a 5 book (or 6th if the DM could be split out)


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 21:06:54


Post by: Rippy


Captyn_Bob wrote:

FW may not release rules for their OOP vehicles.

I emailed FW asking if my OOP Plague Hulk of Nurgle would be getting rules. It's been a week without reply :(


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 21:10:27


Post by: ScarVet101


Rippy, take a look at the FAQ GW released when 8th was announced. All current models, including FW will be playable.

They might not have got back to you get as I'm sure there are a lot of players as concerned as you and they might be getting swamped.

Hope the F&Q link helps a bit

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answeredgw-homepage-post-2/


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 21:50:26


Post by: Rippy


Thanks mate, I have read that and they do say "all of your current GW models" and then "all of your FW models" (doesn't say current production there).

This leaves some ambiguity about whether out of production models like my Plague Hulk will get rules :(

Worse comes to worst, I can just run it as a defiler, but that isn't fun


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 21:56:35


Post by: Captyn_Bob


From FW's facebook page
" As the FAQ says, any models that are on sale right now from Forge World will receive rules support."

"On sale right now" is the term that has me worried.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 21:58:18


Post by: Rippy


Captyn_Bob wrote:
From FW's facebook page
" As the FAQ says, any models that are on sale right now from Forge World will receive rules support."

"On sale right now" is the term that has me worried.

I am not hopeful :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone from the UK please call Forge World and ask if Plague Hulk of Nurgle is getting rules?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/02 23:43:32


Post by: Roknar


Captyn_Bob wrote:
 Roknar wrote:

WILD speculation here, but isn't there a miffed thunder warrior still out there somewhere that has somehow managed to to survive?


Ahh I would love that. This ties into the fluff of my personal force (which I would never share , as it's silly).

There are a couple of TW active in the 30k era. Nothing in 40k IIRC , which makes sense as they're engineered to die.

TBH I hope chaos don't get hit by numarine syndrome like empire have in AOS. We're getting a good nurgle release, and probably khorne and slaanesh down the line.
If we get traitor numarines... Haa


I don't care for the numarines. I haven't seen the actual lore yet but I'm very skeptical about it, never mind the whole sigmarine faction thing.
However, truescale plastic models?.....*drool*, the thought of getting truescale chaos models?....I don't want to go there, I might not come back XD.

Also I thought there were lore snippets that seemed to indicate a surviving thunder warrior that was none to pleased with ye old emps. Which was interesting as they were supposed to die.
Don't remember if that was 30k or 40k or even where I read it lol, but I do remember something along those lines.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 01:20:19


Post by: Rogzor87


I would like to be able to play a Chaos Biker army!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 01:21:49


Post by: Martel732


I hope Chaos is top tier just to get some variety in my matches.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 01:22:03


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Rogzor87 wrote:
I would like to be able to play a Chaos Biker army!
na-na-na-na DOOMRIIIIIIDER!

Though you can certainly play one now with some of the formations. Though I think the only ones are either Black Legion or Daemonkin.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 13:08:04


Post by: lindsay40k


Just spoke to FW on the phone. In summary:

"We're still waiting for official confirmation on 8ed rules coverage on OOP miniatures. All decisions have to be made not only by FW management but also approved by GW, so the process can take a little longer to get to an official state we can confirm. So I'm afraid the answer there is 'we don't know *yet*'.

With specific regard to the Plague Hulk, it was a very popular kit and was withdrawn from sale when the moulds broke. We are waiting to hear back from the FW Studio (and a GW confirmation) on if they're going to remake the mould or even sculpt a new master model, it is being talked about but I suspect the final decision will be kept close to their chest until a release is imminent. But obviously if it is rereleased it will have 8ed rules."


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 16:49:44


Post by: Slayer le boucher


I hope that we will see new Cult units, ala Scarab occult termies for each Cults.

maybe not in the beginning, but a couple of weeks or months later would be good.

Still waiting for my Zerkers on Juggernauts units...

Now the tidbits we've got so far from 8th, makes me think that Zerkers would be okay.

What really did hurt Zerkers was that FC din't give a bonus to Init anymore like it used to, and since there is no special CCW in a zerker unit outside of the Champ, who is forced to make CHallenges and thus would die first.

They would maybe have lots of attacks to strike, but they would not mitigate any of the returning attacks, like whne they could attack at init5.

Thats whats made them scary for a lot of people, They striked before Marines, killing enough so that the retaliation was minimal, and they could compete wiht faster units like Eldars,D Eldars and some of the Nids things, and even fight on par wiht most of the SM Big Shots.

Once this init bonus vanished, Zerkers became Meh at best, only redeeming fact was that they had lots of attacks, but with no special CCW options in the unit, it was a waste.

I hope that those" updated" profiles for all units, includes some options for CCW for Zerkers, something simple..."...two models can exchange a bolt pistol for a plasma pistol, and their CCW for a power weapon/Ligthning claw/Power fist/..."


 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I wish foot Daemon Princes would be useful.

I love the 3.5 edition model without the dragon wings but I can never run it because Winged Princes have dominated the meta since...forever.


Honestly, i wish there was more movement options for D Princes.

In 3.5 i ran a Demonic speed Prince( Centaur like body, used the old Battle Shaggoth legs and the Metal 40k DPrince torso), BEST DPRINCE I EVER HAD!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Rogzor87 wrote:
I would like to be able to play a Chaos Biker army!
na-na-na-na DOOMRIIIIIIDER!

Though you can certainly play one now with some of the formations. Though I think the only ones are either Black Legion or Daemonkin.


Replace Painkiller with Doomrider in the lyrics...




8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 19:40:31


Post by: Rippy


 lindsay40k wrote:
Just spoke to FW on the phone. In summary:

"We're still waiting for official confirmation on 8ed rules coverage on OOP miniatures. All decisions have to be made not only by FW management but also approved by GW, so the process can take a little longer to get to an official state we can confirm. So I'm afraid the answer there is 'we don't know *yet*'.

With specific regard to the Plague Hulk, it was a very popular kit and was withdrawn from sale when the moulds broke. We are waiting to hear back from the FW Studio (and a GW confirmation) on if they're going to remake the mould or even sculpt a new master model, it is being talked about but I suspect the final decision will be kept close to their chest until a release is imminent. But obviously if it is rereleased it will have 8ed rules."

Thank you so much, this means alot to me and you have officially made my morning by doing this, and specifically asking about the plague hulk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quoted you here in OP (8th edition news/rumours)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724730.page


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/03 20:50:35


Post by: TheLumberJack


 frozenwastes wrote:
I want a grand alliance type approach so I can mix all the Tzeentch stuff at once. Like Rubric marines, other non-Thoursand Suns Tzeentch allied marines, tzaangors, cultists, traitor guard, daemons, the whole deal. I want to run no duplicate units at all and have all the Tzeentch keyworded and any undivided stuff I think is cool.

Hopefully they do a daily post on their community site about keywords and building armies for different approaches to play.


Yeah I'm hoping they do something like this for chaos. They had this idea with daemonkin but I'm hoping they get rid of that book and just do a chaos grand alliance


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 06:37:42


Post by: Shadowbrand


Painting my bikers. And dabbling in Khornate lore, I wonder if Daemonkin will carry over, and of course the fact Death Guard are going to be thier own faction makes me happier then a pig in gak.

Also pondering starting up a proper Daemon Force, other then occasional allies.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 14:20:00


Post by: Youn


I am going to ask a question that might not go over well...

In AoS, does a mark do anything besides give you the keyword of the god it belongs to? Granted that keyword allows you to summon demons in if your a wizard. But, I don't actually see them doing anything.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 15:31:23


Post by: mrhappyface


Honestly, the only thing I am really interested in seeing is what they will do with the named characters: what kind buffed statline will they get? What will their weapons do in 8th? Will they get any interesting unique rules like AoS have? I am especially excited to see what the Daemon Primarchs and Daemon Lords will look like now that they get the AoS monster treatment and the psychers among them can fire out powers like there's no tomorrow.

It'll be a good day to be a follower of the great four.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 16:48:16


Post by: lindsay40k


Youn wrote:
I am going to ask a question that might not go over well...

In AoS, does a mark do anything besides give you the keyword of the god it belongs to? Granted that keyword allows you to summon demons in if your a wizard. But, I don't actually see them doing anything.


It generally lets your co-religionists confer buffs upon you. DPs get innate abilities and there's some God-specific wizard rules that are dependent upon the existence of an appropriate official model. All Chaos wizards know how to summon all Chaos daemons.

I'm not even aware of any God-specifical Icons, which would be a setback for those of us that have been building big units with a FNP banner or such.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 20:45:35


Post by: Youn


But there isn't a +1 toughness or +1 initiative or +1 str on charge type rules correct? I have a feeling that is going to bleed into 8th edition.

Which for one of my armies is actually annoying.

I own 27 Deathguard terminators, 30 plague bearers, 14 nurgling bases and a Great unclean one.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 20:50:27


Post by: Wulfmar


I'm finishing the painting of my entire Thousand Sons force in preparation. I skipped 7.5Ed. after the re-release a handful of months after I invested. I even went as far as to ignore the whole Wrath of Magnus / Traitor Legions out of paranoia that GW would invalidate them very soon after. Looks like my paranoia was well founded.

This being said, my paranoia seems to have run dry as I've been out of the loop. So starting from the baseline - I hope my Thousand Sons army units are all usable and balanced. If so, I'll consider playing again.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/06 21:07:19


Post by: BrianDavion


Youn wrote:
But there isn't a +1 toughness or +1 initiative or +1 str on charge type rules correct? I have a feeling that is going to bleed into 8th edition.

Which for one of my armies is actually annoying.

I own 27 Deathguard terminators, 30 plague bearers, 14 nurgling bases and a Great unclean one.

'
depends, it might enable them to make god specific unit choices a little more clear cut, avoiding the problems we saw in 7th where generic CSMs with a mark of khorne where better then Khrone bezerkers. that said we've been pretty clear that we like ways to diffrentiate our fluffy forces from one another so I can't imagine GW removing em too much


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 00:54:46


Post by: lindsay40k


I'm pressing ahead with building loads of infantry models that could be used in CSM, Havoc or Chosen units with a bunch of Marked icons, but I'm holding back on big characters until I know what they do and likewise avoiding making loads of obviously Marked infantry. I've recently added a box of Exalted Sorcerers to my bits box with a view to making a few Tzeentchian heroes, I'll be pretty miffed if they're only really useful to Tsons. Likewise all these Combi Plasma Terminators and Power Sword Champions I've made - I'm not happy that they're unplayable in Shadow War and hope that that game's inflexible 'your units can take what comes in their box' rules that really restrict kitbashing aren't a portent of 48K.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 07:39:40


Post by: plagueknight


 Rippy wrote:
Good day to my fellow pus filled, cocaine snorting, blood drinking and magic wielding members of the dark path!

I am just looking forward to my spiritual liege. No, not that hack Roboute, but of course Big M!
Mortarion in the corpse and pus himself!
Also I am looking forward to the new death guard, I never purchased Terminators for my force, but their rules are looking to be nice, and the new models beautiful!

Plus with DG getting early focus, there will be a campaign etc!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and another thing I want is rules for the Leviathan Siege Dreadnought for chaos in 40k. Perty pls Lord GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Bit early..

I am looking at my Lords on Juggernaughts and.. crossing my fingers.

I am feeling this with my Plague Hulk of Nurgle.

Same here though unfortunately FW have discontinued the Plague Hulk so I pray they will still update them for 8th edition


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 16:28:05


Post by: Captyn_Bob


A teaser of 8th Ed chaos effectiveness
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines/

No news on whether legions are still a thing, but bezerkers are supposed to be good. Maybe Blood for the blood God will be a common khorne rule to allow for daemonkin lists


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 17:58:00


Post by: mrhappyface


Captyn_Bob wrote:
A teaser of 8th Ed chaos effectiveness
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines/

No news on whether legions are still a thing, but bezerkers are supposed to be good. Maybe Blood for the blood God will be a common khorne rule to allow for daemonkin lists

So excited to see that my Bezerkers will be (in theory) a threat again, hopefully this won't be a big disappointment like the Bezerker formations were.

Feeling reservedly optimistic.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 18:01:02


Post by: TheLumberJack


 mrhappyface wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
A teaser of 8th Ed chaos effectiveness
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines/

No news on whether legions are still a thing, but bezerkers are supposed to be good. Maybe Blood for the blood God will be a common khorne rule to allow for daemonkin lists

So excited to see that my Bezerkers will be (in theory) a threat again, hopefully this won't be a big disappointment like the Bezerker formations were.

Feeling reservedly optimistic.


Yeah as someone who is gonna start playing this edition, I'm excited cause berzerkers are some of my favorite chaos units


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/07 18:10:51


Post by: mrhappyface


Captyn_Bob wrote:
No news on whether legions are still a thing

From their Facebook:
[Warhammer 40,000] "Hey guys - the Traitor Legions will indeed be getting rules to distinguish them from each other. More news on what that looks like in the future."


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 02:41:04


Post by: Dr. Cheesesteak


I mean, of course GW is gonna say "X unit is great!" on a preview. I have a feeling almost every unit will be serviceable at worst in 8Ed anyway.

I had just decided last night, too, to NOT go CSM (it was between CSM, Eldar, Nids, and DE. Eldar and Nids won out, w/ an Eldar to DE swap clause lol) in 8Ed But who truly knows what the future holds...

( Tzeentch does )


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 06:07:58


Post by: TheLumberJack


 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I mean, of course GW is gonna say "X unit is great!" on a preview. I have a feeling almost every unit will be serviceable at worst in 8Ed anyway.

I had just decided last night, too, to NOT go CSM (it was between CSM, Eldar, Nids, and DE. Eldar and Nids won out, w/ an Eldar to DE swap clause lol) in 8Ed But who truly knows what the future holds...

( Tzeentch does )


I'm always torn between elder and chaos when I'm deciding which army I'm finally gonna start. I like that both armies can be very colorful, but I feel like chaos has more diversity painting and also more diverse playstyle


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 07:30:49


Post by: Sersi


I'm pretty hopefully for my Slaaneshi Forces and Chaos in general.

NOISE MARINES:

- Well initiative is gone, but movement is now more important.
- a high movement value or re-rolls to charge maybe in the cards.
- That said Marks in AOS are just Keyword: Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Tzeentch; so we'll see.
- Hopefully we still have a FNP like ability, and some version of combat drugs.
- When we get our new model release I'd like: either Sonic Terminators, a Sonic Dreadnought, and some kind of melee elites like Palatine Blades or Phoenix Terminators

Blastmaster:

- Blast Templates no longer exist, they just require a 3+ to hit roll, and are either Heavy D3 or D6 similar to flamers
- Moving heavy weapons only causes you to suffer a -1 to hit instead of snap shots.
- Ignores Cover is still in and even more important than before as Cover grants a flat +1 to a models existing armor save.
- If we can still hit on a 4+ with a Heavy D3 or D6 I can't imagine any use for the alternate firing mode.
- Range: 48”/Heavy D6/S8/-2AP/DAM1/Ignores Cover.

Doom Siren:

- If it's essentially a boosted flamer.
- Range 8”/Assault D6/S5/-2AP/DAM1//Ignores Cover/Auto hits its target.

Sonic Blaster:

- For two editions they were unusable due to the Salvo rule their short range.
- Before that it was to expensive at 5 pts.
- Since tactical marines are Rapid Fire 1, I assume we'll get Rapid Fire 2 (3 shots at 12" range).
- But I would be happy with Assault 2, so we could shoot and charge again.
- Range: 24”/Rapid Fire 2/S4/0AP/DAM1/Ignores Cover.

Sonic Dreadnought:

- I'm not going to hold out hope that FW will coming out with updated rules.
- Which is fine, there have been plenty of occasions when there were no rules despite them still selling the model.
- I'll wait to see how the Sonic weapons shake out and just swap weapons profiles or proxy.
- Who am I kidding FW will probably release a contemptor version for 30K eventually.



SLAANESHI DAEMONS:

- Sounds like we'll be able to freely take Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons together again.
- I really hope they just port over the AOS stuff with a few changes.
- I doubt that they'll give any of the lesser Daemons better than the WS 3+ Marines now have despite bloodletters and daemonettes being WS5 currently.
- The 4+ to wound roll from AOS is better that the current 5+ to wound marines.
- Apparently, all wound rolls of 6 auto wound; but its doesn't ignore armor save.
- So hopefully rending still exists in some form.
- Since making rending claws a simple -1 armor modifier, at S3 won't cut it in 40K.
- And they can't have a -2 or -3 armor modifier on all their attacks cause that would be OP.
- I'll miss taking Greater Etherblades on all my characters for that lovely AP2/+1S though.

Daemonettes:

- AOS: 2 attacks/AP-1/Damage 1.
- Move 6", advance D6" and still charge in the same turn.
- Enemy's re-roll hit rolls of 6 when the unit is within 6" of a slaaneshi daemon character.
- They gain a bonus attack on hit rolls of 6 below 20 models and on a 5+ above.
- So lets see: vs marines hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, and with AP-1 they save on 4+

Seekers:

- AOS the has 2 attacks like Daemonettes and 2 attacks from their mounts for four attacks total.
- In 40K they'll probably go with: 3 attacks/AP-1/Damage 1.
- Move 14", advance 2D6" and still charge in the same turn.
- +1" to charges within 12" of a slaaneshi daemon character.
- Gain a bonus attack on hit rolls of 6 below.

Chariots:

- These I'm excited for.
- Moves 12" and always advances 6".
- After is charges all enemy models within 1" or that huge base suffer a "mortal wound" on a 4+.
- The rider then gets bonus attacks on hit rolls of 6 as well.
- If you take exalted it causes D3 mortal wounds, and enemy units within 3" suffer +1 to their morale roll.

Fiends:

- Move 12", 4 wounds, S4, T4, SV5+
- 4 attacks at: Range 1"/S4/AP-/Damage 1, wound rolls of "6" count as AP-2.
- Maybe we'll finally get to attack with that stinger like in AOS.
- 1 attack at: Range 2"/S4/AP-1/Damage D3.
- In combat enemy units suffer -1 for and hit roll targeting the fiends.
- They re-roll hit rolls of "1" when the unit is within 6" of a slaaneshi daemon character.

Keeper:

- If AOS carries over move 14", 10 wounds, S6, T6, SV4+.
- 6 attacks at S6/AP-1/Damage 2, and 2 attacks at S6/AP-2/Damage D3; all attacks at 2" range.
- And she re-rolls all wound rolls of "1".
- Wow that would be beautiful, the Keeper man drawback has always been mobility and getting to combat.


The 8th editions looking pretty good so far.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 11:32:29


Post by: lindsay40k


@Sersi: It has been revealed that Slaaneshi Daemons will get Strikes First. If that ability is also available to Marked units via a hero's spell or ability, we could see some very interesting EC rushdown/deep insertion (ooer) plays.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 12:15:31


Post by: 10penceman


choas need new models badly and they need to step away from the mutation thing a little on some of them as the current models are a mess and from i have seen of the new plague marines they look mince to much mutation rather than rot.

rule wise I think will work out but choas need a fleet of new units i think and hope. With the new marines coming for the imperial side it could make choas seem a little weak again.

I hope that they put the current imperial flyers in the choas book as well


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 12:31:11


Post by: redleger


I built 3 sorcerers on bikes for my Cyclopia Cabal. If I can not use them anymore as just plain old Sorcerers on bikes atleast then I will be a bit upset.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 13:04:00


Post by: zerosignal


I'm trying to build a Death Guard army at the moment, for my 40th birthday week (with five mates) at Warhammer World - when I started it was going to be 7th, but then the rumours (and confirmation) of 8th hit.

So all six of us are in the same boat, with no idea about unit/weapon strengths (bar the 'it's all balanced, trust us' line...)

I was going to convert up a Lord and a Sorceror on bikes, but with the rumours of characters being unable to join units... :/

edit: I do have the benefit of having seven obliterators, so at least flexible shooting is a likely option...

On the plus, Hidden Powerfist is back (so my squad leaders having power swords / fists is useful). On the downside, it looks like stealth/shrouded are gone (to hit modifiers, maybe?) and now everyone's relentless, my autocannon havoc squad is less good. Although I'm hoping autocannons get a -1 AP buff, so...

Any other suggestions of how 8th might help/hinder?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/08 19:19:09


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm. If heroes can't join units, I hope at the very least they can share a transport with them.

Did I read somewhere that shooting units are compelled to target the closest visible enemy unit? That worked pretty good in 4ed(?), when you could pass a Ld text to override, but that's oldhammer. I wonder how they'll balance heroes not being sniper-bait with firebase units having control of target priority.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/11 17:04:22


Post by: mrhappyface


There is already a thread discussing this but I thought I might update the Chaos Thread anyway:

Loving the new Rubrics by the way! That 2+ against single damage weapons and those nasty as hell flamers might make Rubrics quite tasty.

Also nice to see that Smite will be toned down for none character psychers, thought the Horror spam would be awful. D:


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 06:08:57


Post by: koooaei


Not really, just a mortal wound from a squad per turn. I think it's ok.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 06:28:45


Post by: mrhappyface


 koooaei wrote:
Not really, just a mortal wound from a squad per turn. I think it's ok.

That's what I meant, before each squad would get d3/d6 mortal wounds per turn on a 30/50/90 pt squad (or whatever points they are now), now it isn't too bad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 12:12:29


Post by: lindsay40k


If magic works like in AoS, each named spell can only be attempted per turn and every Chaos Psyker knows how to Summon every kind of Daemon. So that'll mean one unit of Rubricae gets to Smite away a wound - not really worth burning off a dispel attempt, so it's not going to contribute to an overwhelming psychic assault - and the others are just loci of Daemonic support.

Most exciting news is Combi-weapons not running out of ammunition and being able to fire both barrels at -1BS. Chosen, assuming same options as now, just got quite a boost.

...or did they?

Bolters have had a nerf, on balance. Almost everything is getting a save against them, but they wound T6/7 on a 5+ (still not an ideal target) and can scratch anything's paint.

Melta guns are so powerful, it seems unlikely to be worth four combi-gunners trading one hit for an extra four Bolter hits, especially against their intended targets.

With Rhinos having a save against small arms and chainswords, combi-weapons become even more interesting.

Plasma is tricky - if Gets Hot is still a thing, then there's a judgement to be made of getting some extra Bolter hits in before you kill yourself vs maximising your Plasma hits. We need more information on this.

Flamers might be a no-brainer - if they still auto-hit even if there's modifiers to hit, then an extra Bolter hit is great when engaging their intended targets.

And then of course there's Overwatch; if it can't get worse than 6 to hit, then combi-weapons will be quite handy - especially in the hands of a deep insertion gunner unit like Chosen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: I seriously hope Cultist options are priced more realistically. Adding 25% to the cost of a horde trooper for a rifle that'll barely scratch MEQs and when you close in will prevent you from charging (or halve your attacks when charged) is just... well, it's like paying 1pt for a 5ed Spinefist that actually lowered a Termagant's performance. Even the Heavy Stubber was overcosted IMO. And the worst thing was no multi-fit Cultist kit, instead we have to buy a box where half of them are armed with expensive tat and they're accompanied by a mono-pose Champion - again, with a bad loadout.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 17:09:54


Post by: MagicJuggler


I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 17:54:15


Post by: mrhappyface


 MagicJuggler wrote:
Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.

Although it does stop the most plug and play Chaos Daemon armies out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Although I must say it does blow for Word Bearers armies, maybe if a WB detachment can spend command points to summon above the allotted points or if summoned Daemons get free upgrades?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 18:34:21


Post by: Insectum7


I'm getting ready by finishing up a squad of 10 Terminators for my expanding Black Legion collection. I hope I can get some competetive utility out of them.

Next up: A quad Lascannon squad of havocs. Another 3 Obliterators for a total of 9. Then on to 3 Defilers. Then 5 more Spawn. Then a batch of 20 more CSM. Order may change, but those are the biggies.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 20:20:31


Post by: Roknar


 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.


They're going to have to make some changes. They can all deepstrike anyway unless they change that, so summoning would be no different to deploying them normally via reserves.
Not even for csm as both share the chaos faction so could both be used to fill slots in the same CAD if I understand correctly.

The only advantage would be to summon turn one, like maybe on a prince or bike (otherwise you're better off waiting for turn 2) and not needing to roll for reserve I suppose.
I could see them putting the kibosh on summoning daemon for non chaos factions, but all of that seems like a consolidation prize.
It could be reasonable compared to non chaos factions, but other chaos factions vs word bearers would be quite silly.
The equivalent of the malefic tome would be summoning an additional unit pet turn I imagine. And slightly easier to cast summons for being WB. Seems pretty weak to me considering it's a very minor buff to reserve manipulation compared to other chaos factions.

More points to summon would be back to free points so I doubt we'll be seeing that. Curious to see what they'll do here.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 21:19:15


Post by: lindsay40k


It's looking like the main thing Summoning will offer is flexibility - tailor your use of Daemon budget to match your opponent and situation - and not paying any HQ & Troops tax when a bunch of Screamers or Flamers are a useful asset. Still not terrible, though possibly difficult to make work well.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 22:38:34


Post by: MagicJuggler


 lindsay40k wrote:
It's looking like the main thing Summoning will offer is flexibility - tailor your use of Daemon budget to match your opponent and situation - and not paying any HQ & Troops tax when a bunch of Screamers or Flamers are a useful asset. Still not terrible, though possibly difficult to make work well.


Which...you were able to do before. Only now, you have to run your army as a near-null build (you know...like Black Legion or Night Lords do) rather than maximizing early game board presence with a tide of Cultists (you know...what Word Bearers), since points spent on Daemon summoning are points not spent on actual Chaos Marines...

At which point, why was I playing Word Bearers again instead of some Marine army that doesn't rely on summoning (you know, like Iron Warriors)? Oh yeah, because blasts got the nerf and Chaos does not have any reliable "rate of fire" shooting beyond Havocs (which incidentally, Death Guard does best). So Plague Autohavocs just got relatively better compared to everything else despite already being an autoinclude for Death Guard.

Aka, the most popular Legion is getting better while one with incredibly fringe benefits is getting a lot weaker. Aka, fan favoritism, aka why you don't crowdsource to a damn Footdar player.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/12 22:44:44


Post by: mrhappyface


Well we don't know what legion rules we are getting yet so how about we only pull out the soapbox once we have all the rules?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/13 00:26:43


Post by: MagicJuggler


 mrhappyface wrote:
Well we don't know what legion rules we are getting yet so how about we only pull out the soapbox once we have all the rules?


"Possessed as Troops, more Dark Apostles." I seriously doubt there's going to be much variation beyond that. Let's not kid ourselves here.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/13 01:32:26


Post by: BrianDavion


 MagicJuggler wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Well we don't know what legion rules we are getting yet so how about we only pull out the soapbox once we have all the rules?


"Possessed as Troops, more Dark Apostles." I seriously doubt there's going to be much variation beyond that. Let's not kid ourselves here.


possiably some morale effecting rules too? one would think an army of religious fanatics would be more willing to embrace casualites


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/13 09:38:38


Post by: lindsay40k


^ well, we know Dark Apostles will have an AOE Ld buff, which represents that pretty well, I've always wanted them to be a more attractive choice for my WBs than just taking Icons of Vengeance for a quarter of the price.

Some more 'sacrifice' options would be nice. Our cultists aren't just fodder for the *enemy* guns, something like 'kill D6 friendly models to roll 3D6 on a Summon spell and pick the best two' would encourage us to take characterful giant mobs.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/13 11:32:45


Post by: ShadowPug


I am currently focusing on finally painting my dark vengeance set after ages, I am painting them to be blood disciples and im making a good start, just finished the rhino I have been working on for ages yesterday and have painted 2 of my cutists (actaully good for my beginner fingers), if I manage to finish dark vengeance and my 20 extra cultists I wanna get some khorne beserkers (thinking of getting 1 berserker box and 1 CSM box to mix and match parts too look cool and be able to pass for CSM or beserkers lol).


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 01:18:27


Post by: Goat


I hope skarbrand and kharn get added to the kdk book. Or we find out why they were omitted


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 01:37:42


Post by: ERJAK


 MagicJuggler wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
It's looking like the main thing Summoning will offer is flexibility - tailor your use of Daemon budget to match your opponent and situation - and not paying any HQ & Troops tax when a bunch of Screamers or Flamers are a useful asset. Still not terrible, though possibly difficult to make work well.


Which...you were able to do before. Only now, you have to run your army as a near-null build (you know...like Black Legion or Night Lords do) rather than maximizing early game board presence with a tide of Cultists (you know...what Word Bearers), since points spent on Daemon summoning are points not spent on actual Chaos Marines...

At which point, why was I playing Word Bearers again instead of some Marine army that doesn't rely on summoning (you know, like Iron Warriors)? Oh yeah, because blasts got the nerf and Chaos does not have any reliable "rate of fire" shooting beyond Havocs (which incidentally, Death Guard does best). So Plague Autohavocs just got relatively better compared to everything else despite already being an autoinclude for Death Guard.

Aka, the most popular Legion is getting better while one with incredibly fringe benefits is getting a lot weaker. Aka, fan favoritism, aka why you don't crowdsource to a damn Footdar player.


Play narrative games Narrative play likely won't have those restrictions. So you'll be able to use your fluff army how you want no problem.

Unless you're a bullgak cheesemonger that's butthurt because he actually has to use 2000pts in a 2000pt game now. In that case you are VERY deservedley SOL.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 02:36:24


Post by: BrianDavion


I've got some mark 3 armor, I'm considering painting em up as Iron warriors or black legion, but am gonna hold off till 8th launches.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 03:01:22


Post by: Fenris-77


Can daemons charge on the turn they're summoned in AoS? I'm just curious, because being able to do so in 40K might take some of the sting out the no free models thing, especially for WB.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 04:13:47


Post by: BlaxicanX


 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.
Did you only get into 40K during 7th edition or are you just exaggerating here?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 05:55:05


Post by: Ascalam


Mono Nurgle daemons here.

I'm not a fan of summoning, so that change doesn't really phase me. I have concerns over my Plague Hulk, but I can always run him as a Nurgle grinder. I will miss being able to SOC multiple units at a time.

The possibility of getting FNP back on Nurglings looks good, but I'm concerned that with the change to cover saves that Nurgle relies on in 7th, and the everything-wounds rules mean that my big beasties will die easier, even if they up the wounds.

I may branch out into plague marines as an expansion to my existing force.

I'm not rushing to judgment yet, but not entirely encouraged by what I've seen so far.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 07:34:42


Post by: ShadowPug


If your running nurgle you should be super excited, I am very certain that they are gonna make the nurgle faction (nurgle marines and daemons).


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 14:32:37


Post by: mrhappyface


Do we know if cover improves invulnerable saves as well as armour? Could make Daemons in cover very nasty: Tzeentch Daemons with 4++ in +2 cover for a 2++, Nurgle Daemons with 5++ in +2 cover for 3++ AND 5+ ignore wounds.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 15:07:23


Post by: lindsay40k


^ seems highly unlikely, given that AP cuts through cover saves.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/14 15:13:46


Post by: mrhappyface


 lindsay40k wrote:
^ seems highly unlikely, given that AP cuts through cover saves.

Mhmm, perhaps cover will just give Daemons a 5+ armour save rather than improve their invul. Makes sense but does mean that cover would be pretty useless for Daemons now. :/


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/15 15:18:56


Post by: MagicJuggler


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.
Did you only get into 40K during 7th edition or are you just exaggerating here?


3rd actually. Originally I had a Lost and the Damned army...which subsequently occupied the shelf come the Gav dex, the obsolescence of Codex: Eye of Terror, and all CSM Daemons being restricted to "Greater Daemon" and "Lesser Daemon", with everything else split up in another book, in an edition without an Ally system. So this would actually be the second time my Word Bearers become unplayable.

Fun huh?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/15 20:08:02


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 MagicJuggler wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
I play Word Bearers. Summoning now requires points. It wasn't even a "recursion" thing (such armies aren't good anyway) as much as an "attrition" thing. My army is functionally going to be unplayable now.

Way to go, GW. You managed to nerf one of the least plug-and-play Chaos armies out there. Got to sell those Death Guard and Rubrics somehow.
Did you only get into 40K during 7th edition or are you just exaggerating here?


3rd actually. Originally I had a Lost and the Damned army...which subsequently occupied the shelf come the Gav dex, the obsolescence of Codex: Eye of Terror, and all CSM Daemons being restricted to "Greater Daemon" and "Lesser Daemon", with everything else split up in another book, in an edition without an Ally system. So this would actually be the second time my Word Bearers become unplayable.

Fun huh?


God I forgot about "Lesser" and "Greater" daemon, the biggest fail of the split apart CSM dex.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/15 21:32:43


Post by: Skerr


Wait and see guys wait and see...


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 04:08:49


Post by: Kraytirous


I think it's easy to confuse a playstyle which is intended to be thematic and a playstyle which is intended to be tactical. Summoning has its place in the lore and in the stories told by battlefields. Summoning still exists as a very powerful tactic that you can use and that works pretty much exactly like it does in the fluff (a cabal of sorcerers summoning an entire army of daemons). The fact is that even though summoning is completely thematic and part of the lore, as well as a rules-supported tactic in the core rules of the game, that doesn't entitle you to the right of using it in competitive play. You have an army built to play thematically, and that theme is very counter-productive to competitive balance.

Some of the most creative and fantastic armies I've ever seen are incompatible competitively (a haunted forest Sylvaneth army [trees and ghosts]). That doesn't mean your army isn't an accomplishment. It just means that you can't use its fullest potential in a competitive game. Which makes sense. Competitive play is supposed to be two even armies on an even playing field. Uncapped summoning is not an even playing field. Isn't one of the biggest complaints about 7th that there are some armies with such heavy-handed force multipliers that they are literally bringing 25% extra points to the table?

I'm personally super excited. My Chaos terminators are going to be ripping the throat out of my enemies' armies. Combi-weapons are badass.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 05:11:37


Post by: Rippy


PLEASE Plague Marines with same stats as the Primaris marines, or a bit weaker/more expensive with FNP!!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 06:12:49


Post by: Ascalam


Unlikely.

The 'Marines are Best, unless they are Chaos' bias is too strong.

Judging by past experience they will be both worse and more expensive.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 06:16:25


Post by: Rippy


 Ascalam wrote:
Unlikely.

The 'Marines are Best, unless they are Chaos' bias is too strong.

Judging by past experience they will be both worse and more expensive.

I am not worried about this, I have been chaos since I started. Even if they are a bit worse, I more meant I hope cult troops are the same to Primaris Marines, as normal CSM are to old Space Marines.

Traitor legions showed us how similar CSM are to Plague Marines, the difference in ability and points to reflect should be of a greater distance between the two.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 07:50:41


Post by: Kurnost


I play many, many things, and I'm excited for 8th ed. Mostly, I don't want to lose my 'faster yet less deadly' Crimson Slaughter possessed tide of doom. Expensive, doesn't work all the time but damn when it does, it does


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 09:03:52


Post by: EverlastingNewb


Kurnost wrote:
I play many, many things, and I'm excited for 8th ed. Mostly, I don't want to lose my 'faster yet less deadly' Crimson Slaughter possessed tide of doom. Expensive, doesn't work all the time but damn when it does, it does

^ This.

I started WH40K with Crimson Slaughter and i really hope the Red Tide of Voices isn't going to be discontinued. Also, there are some units i want to see more / at all on the table in the 'near' future of 8th.
Especially Defilers, Mutilators & Warp Talons. I'm probably the only player in my FLGS & Warhammer Store who plays Mutilators & Defilers - especially the Defiler is probably the Chaos Poster Child yet
i've never seen another Chaos player buy / play them unless they're into converting which is - quite honestly - sad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 09:33:44


Post by: Earth127


I own a defiler but their rules are just horribly outdated.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 21:32:02


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 mrhappyface wrote:
There is already a thread discussing this but I thought I might update the Chaos Thread anyway:

Loving the new Rubrics by the way! That 2+ against single damage weapons and those nasty as hell flamers might make Rubrics quite tasty.

Also nice to see that Smite will be toned down for none character psychers, thought the Horror spam would be awful. D:


Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 21:37:09


Post by: ZebioLizard2



So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.
...Why are you footslogging them instead of putting them in rhinos?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 21:50:07


Post by: mrhappyface


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

Could you show your maths for 4 lascannons wiping a squad in one turn?

Also, as the lizard said: why would you footslog?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 22:42:27


Post by: Roknar


4 lascannons will kill 4 models at most and that's not considerinng to hit and to wound or their invulnerable save.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 23:10:48


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.
...Why are you footslogging them instead of putting them in rhinos?


Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.

mrhappyface wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Here is the thing they are much more durable against small arms fire, but they are much much more vulnerable to Heavy Weapons. So now 4 Lascannons can wipe the squad out in a single turn from 48" away.

So rather then dying quickly when they get within shooting range they will now die before they ever get within range since they have a slow movement.

Could you show your maths for 4 Lascannons wiping a squad in one turn?

Also, as the lizard said: why would you footslog?


Math: assuming MEQ 4*.66*.825*3*.66 (shots*hit ratio*average wound*average damage*non save ratio)= 4.31
Now at this point your probably thinking yeah well there are 5 of them, which is right except their Ld 8-4 = 4 morale phase comes around pick up 2 dice and roll 4 or less, you have about a 13% chance of keeping 1 guy.

If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.

Roknar wrote:4 lascannons will kill 4 models at most and that's not considerinng to hit and to wound or their invulnerable save.


Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 23:13:58


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.


Why do you think that the Rhino won't get any save at all? And what character are we talking about here given that we only know of the Rubrics statline?



If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.
Which is still 12" more movement then they'd get normally, and would protect them from four lascannon blasts.


Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.
And.. Well yes but we are talking about Rubrics right? The 1W rubrics?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 23:19:34


Post by: Gloomfang


Damage from lascanons do not spill over. So its 4*.66*.66 so 1.47 dead. I'm sure there's more advanced math to figure out exactly what chances are for saving multiple wounds are rough but good chances you're just going to lose to Marines


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/16 23:59:49


Post by: Nightlord1987


I'm kinda hoping CSM ones back to being the ultimate in custom options in wargear/special/heavy weapons to represent their looser structure compared to codex compliant Loyalists. A heavy or special at 5 man two at 10. That sort of thing.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 00:20:55


Post by: Oldmike


 Gloomfang wrote:
Damage from lascanons do not spill over. So its 4*.66*.66 so 1.47 dead. I'm sure there's more advanced math to figure out exactly what chances are for saving multiple wounds are rough but good chances you're just going to lose to Marines


In AoS wounds spill over so some think in 8th it will also


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 00:25:42


Post by: lindsay40k


Ah, so multiple damage weapons don't 'lance' like in Sigmar, then? That's a relief, else high ROF weapons would have been somewhat redendant.

Saving multiple wounds: basically a hitting, wounding Lascannon shot vs 5++ is inflicting D6 x 0.67 W - or rather, D6 W each of which has a 0.33 chance of being discounted.

The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1

Average of the above = chances of a Rubric not getting up from a wounding Lascannon hit: 91.67%

Astartes Lascannon hit rate: 66.67%

Lascannon wound rate vs T4: 83.33%

Product of the above three = Astartes Lascannon kill rate vs Rubricae: 50.92%

Devastators with Lascannons basically drop 2 Rubricae per turn, with 1/6 chance of another one crumbling from Morale if no other casualties add to their Battleshock.

Edit: this assumes you can't stack regular and invulnerable saves.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 00:31:33


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Mostly because having them not in rhinos is going to be better then bringing a Rhino, which will probably not get any save and will increase the cost of an already expensive unit. Not to mention if they are in a Rhino and move outside the range of the character "aura" range then you basically paid for a character to do nothing.


Why do you think that the Rhino won't get any save at all? And what character are we talking about here given that we only know of the Rubrics statline?



If they are in vehicles then all you have done is increase costs, the range on Lascannons is 48" if you mount them they move up 12" rhino gets blown up you move 6" your now 6" out of range and still die.


Which is still 12" more movement then they'd get normally, and would protect them from four lascannon blasts.


Lascannons are -3 ap and do D6 damage the can at most kill 24 wounds worth of models.


And.. Well yes but we are talking about Rubrics right? The 1W rubrics?


I dont think the rhino will have a very good save it might get a 3+ but if it has something that good it will end up having a lower wound count. The -3 AP will make it so that any save it does get is woefully inefficent. Its still a Rhino and it will still probably die in the first or second round.

Being closer and doing no damage dosent change the fact that you did no damage.

The charcter dosent matter only the fact that you will probably have to mount them on something increasing your costs.

The Lascannon thing wasnt for you it was for Roknar who said that you could only get max 4 kills with 4 Lascannons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do any of you guys have something i can read that says the wounds wouldnt spill over?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind i found it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there is no spill over which is good but now that simply changes the ideal weapon to something like the auto cannon which will probably have -1 AP and do either 1d3 damage or 2 damage, and have 2 shots.

The thing im pointing out here is that before Rubrics could easily weather heavy weapons were kinda slow and got chewed up all the same by small arms. Now they are still slow have the same range and less vulnurable to small arms but are more vulnurable to heavy weapons. This means ypur going to lose a lot more before they get to do anything. Yet there cost is going to be about the same. About 60% more then what a Tac Squad costs.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 01:18:38


Post by: Roknar


They only kill four models since wounds don't spill over iirc. So 24 "damage" is still only 4 VERY dead rubrics lol. I wasn't implying they wouldn't fear a lascannon, just that it's not as bad as taking a ton of wounds. If lascannons could do that there would be very little reason to take other guns. They would do as much damage as flamers but at five times the range with a higher AP mod XD.



8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 02:33:40


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Yeah still trying to adjust to this new system. The problem i see with this setup is that is can get super complicated when firing muti damage weapons at single wound models.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 02:39:44


Post by: Roknar


It's pretty much how wounds from destroyer work currently. Hit, wound, save and then you may or may not be in extra trouble if you have more wounds. Single wound models simply die the same as when taking a wound from any other weapon since they only have one wound to loose. rolling for the extra wounds is purely academic in those cases.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 06:50:33


Post by: mrhappyface


I would say a rhino would still be worth taking because in 8th it's probably T6 10W and has a 3+ save, so versus 4 lascannons:
4*2/3*2/3*5/6 *3= 120/27 = 4W (might be wrong, dis it in my head)
So, since we don't know the rhino's stats, it's a bit early to make assumption.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 07:05:58


Post by: purplkrush


 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Variation would be nice but it would just be throwing all those bloated rules back into a system trying to cleanse itself of bloated rules, so flat stat increases might be better overall. Maybe nurgle marines can switch to being wound-base tanking while toughness/armor based tanking can be given to the Rubricae.


There would be no bloat since the fluff indicating why they got a specific thing would be contained on their Warscroll. All you really see is an enhanced Stat and a short blurb describing why they have it. BAM, what?! No more USR.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 12:41:25


Post by: lindsay40k


 mrhappyface wrote:
I would say a rhino would still be worth taking because in 8th it's probably T6 10W and has a 3+ save, so versus 4 lascannons:
4*2/3*2/3*5/6 *3= 120/27 = 4W (might be wrong, dis it in my head)
So, since we don't know the rhino's stats, it's a bit early to make assumption.


You've got the math mostly right there except the average score of D6 W is 3.5, leaving a 10 W Rhino with 4.71W - probably enough to slow it down. I doubt a Rhino will be 10W, though - aren't we seeing 3 HP models translate to around 8W? I'd certainly expect a dedicated anti-tank devastator squad to cripple any light transport it finds in the open.

That said, do we know if saves come in before or after wound multiplication? They didn't in 2ed, and whilst very rare in 3ed onwards they usually come in on "unsaved wounds". Also, the Rhino is almost certain to be taking cover or popping smoke when the Devastators make their first volley.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 13:48:22


Post by: Kurnost


Are we really at the point of complaining that lascannons will hammer infantry? Even sorcerous automaton infantry?
If I take Rubricae and my opponent is dense enough to waste 4 lascannons (or any dedicated heavy weapon actually) on my Rubricae, then I lose them. Then *insert random nasty here* that he didn't target hammers him

With their slow Movement matching terminators, Rubrics could provide a damned useful footslogging shield for more dangerous, expensive units


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 14:04:05


Post by: koooaei


 lindsay40k wrote:


The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1


I didn't quite get what that is. But just in case. You roll for damage after suffering a wound.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 14:34:21


Post by: Gloomfang


And it looks like the new reserves rule buffs that summoning change. Being able to bring in reserves after turn 3 is pretty much a summoning only thing.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 16:01:16


Post by: lindsay40k


^^ Okay, then Rubricae are tougher than we thought


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gloomfang wrote:
And it looks like the new reserves rule buffs that summoning change. Being able to bring in reserves after turn 3 is pretty much a summoning only thing.


That'll be handy for dropping a unit when the enemy have played all their cards, especially if hold objectives until the end or something like Maelstrom still exists.

Huh. Reserves seem to generally have a LZ of at least 9 inches from hostiles. There goes dropping Flamers in someone's face and hosing them down with fire. And with Run/Turbo happening during Movement, Screamers might have lost their ability to attack & redeploy on arrival.

Wonder if there'll be access to re-rolling Charge dice without expending a CP.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 16:25:23


Post by: SagesStone


If there is I'd suspect it'd be Slaanesh based.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 18:13:13


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Gloomfang wrote:
And it looks like the new reserves rule buffs that summoning change. Being able to bring in reserves after turn 3 is pretty much a summoning only thing.


The other thing that summoning does is allow people to bring, relatively, exactly what they need. If they need fast assault units they can bring that on, if they need tough obj. holders they can bring that on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:


The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1


I didn't quite get what that is. But just in case. You roll for damage after suffering a wound.


As far as I can tell yes. You: roll to hit, roll to wound, roll damage for said wound, then save. I think.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/17 18:53:47


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Well now that we know Assault from Reserves is a think.. Hopefully we'll see some useful Warp Talons eh?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/18 02:34:24


Post by: ZergSmasher


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well now that we know Assault from Reserves is a think.. Hopefully we'll see some useful Warp Talons eh?

I would love this. Warp Talons are such cool models!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/18 02:35:55


Post by: ERJAK


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Gloomfang wrote:
And it looks like the new reserves rule buffs that summoning change. Being able to bring in reserves after turn 3 is pretty much a summoning only thing.


The other thing that summoning does is allow people to bring, relatively, exactly what they need. If they need fast assault units they can bring that on, if they need tough obj. holders they can bring that on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:


The six results and their rounded off chances of a 1W model *not* making *all* their 5++ saves:

0.66
0.89
0.96
0.99
1
1


I didn't quite get what that is. But just in case. You roll for damage after suffering a wound.


As far as I can tell yes. You: roll to hit, roll to wound, roll damage for said wound, then save. I think.


Save before damage.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/19 14:29:14


Post by: Groslon


So rumors of better rules in 8th may actually get me to play a game instead of just collecting stuff.

Since I am assuming that bigmarines are coming to the chaos side as well, how do you guys think it will spread?

I'm hoping a round of bigger cult marines, and then upsized chosen. If you could take them as troops, you could make three different chosen squads and have those phase out the guys that we have.

Do a frontline squad with melee/flamer/melta upgrades, a midrange squad with plas/HB/autocannon upgrades, and a heavy squad with the really heavy stuff.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/19 15:30:47


Post by: lindsay40k


How Primaris might spread to Chaos:

- Fabius Bile (or extant Apothecaries - come on GW if we're going to get Chaos Techmarines then give us more than one named mad physician) acquiring some specimens

- Primaris Marines realising Horus was right and going renegade

- Tzeentchian plotting

- Heretech hackers find a load of Martian data-banks still use Windows XP and steal the secrets of their creation

- Guilliman selecting 'send all' with the instructions for Chapter Masters without realising he'd muted the rebel Primarchs but not removed them from his contacts list


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/19 15:47:32


Post by: mrhappyface


 lindsay40k wrote:
How Primaris might spread to Chaos:

- Fabius Bile (or extant Apothecaries - come on GW if we're going to get Chaos Techmarines then give us more than one named mad physician) acquiring some specimens

- Primaris Marines realising Horus was right and going renegade

- Tzeentchian plotting

- Heretech hackers find a load of Martian data-banks still use Windows XP and steal the secrets of their creation

- Guilliman selecting 'send all' with the instructions for Chapter Masters without realising he'd muted the rebel Primarchs but not removed them from his contacts list

Maybe Girlyman forgot to open the Email containing the Primaris Marine instructions in an incognito tab?

On a serious note the guy who let slip the new plague marine images said the Chaos gods weren't involved (although his coherency wasn't too great so he might have meant something else)


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/19 22:31:15


Post by: Vryce


 lindsay40k wrote:
How Primaris might spread to Chaos:

- Fabius Bile (or extant Apothecaries - come on GW if we're going to get Chaos Techmarines then give us more than one named mad physician) acquiring some specimens

- Primaris Marines realising Horus was right and going renegade

- Tzeentchian plotting

- Heretech hackers find a load of Martian data-banks still use Windows XP and steal the secrets of their creation

- Guilliman selecting 'send all' with the instructions for Chapter Masters without realising he'd muted the rebel Primarchs but not removed them from his contacts list


Alpha Legionaires infiltrating a growth facility (or whatever they're calling the place where the Primarines are being created) and impersonating an Imperial, then stealing geneseed and learning the process and taking it back to Fabius/Abbadon/whoever so they can start creating them. I remember reading a book where something similar happened when Corax (iirc, it's been a -long- time since I read it) was trying to create more Marines.

Personally, I kinda hope we don't get Primarines, but do hope we get an updated model range in the scale of the Primarines, at least for the Cult Troops anyway. If you look at the new Rubricae, they are similar in height and stature of the Primaris, so I hope we see more of that.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/20 02:01:22


Post by: lindsay40k


Primarines? Pfft, Cawl may as well have commissioned a high school science club. Wait and see our master craftsman show that corpse-loving amateur how it's done.

Spoiler:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps Word Bearers will have some abilities enhancing a Mortal-Daemon Grand Alliance. It seems that having a Force Org chart grants Stratagems particular to any Faction Keyword shared by all units in the Detachment; maybe Daemons will be ignored when determining if a Detatchment is a 'pure' WB one


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Melee Squads now get their +1A from the Chainsword itself, not from melee weapon & pistol. That implies that Champions with Power Weapons won't get +1A, effectively handing them a nerf. They get an extra strike from their pistol, but only in their shooting phase, and not with their weapon profile. Gunners are slightly better when caught by a melee unit, as they'll get to fire pistols.

As for the Champion's hitting power, Power Swords are now much better against Terminators but worse against MEQs. Power Mauls are better than they were against heavy infantry but worse than they were against light infantry and vehicles (which now take a lot more hits and have a save). Power Fists won't strike after a mandatory challengee runs us through with his sword, but will only ever have 2A, even when charging and dual wielding with a LC, which may now be an excessive expenditure.

In fact, I wonder if models currently able to wield two different melee weapons (or two Plasma pistols) will retain these options. The latter was more an artefact of how their standard equipment and upgrades worked. I have a Terminator Sorcerer with axe & sword who takes Biomancy and breaks heads, and a Chosen champion with Plasma Pistols who kills a Terminator or two a turn.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/20 15:36:19


Post by: Nightlord1987


Why are we jumping to the Chainsword being the only +1 attack. It could be pistol CCW hires one, and chainsword gives an extra. I'm being hopeful... That's kinda every close combat units shtick. Are they gonna improve the choppaz just to make Slugga boyz more useful? Doubtful.

So due to this new WYSIWYG mechanic I had to redo my Raptor models carrying special weapons to have that Chainsword in one hand, and melta gun in the other as opposed to carrying it in both hands.

Unfortunately most of my infantry models carry Combat Knives since they're easier to glue onto bolter Marines. They really should have some sheathed or strapped Chainsword bitz by now...



EDIT:

Well, I just found out that Burning of Prospero has strapped Chain Swords in their bitz! Just ordered up some now.

WYSI for life.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/20 15:50:22


Post by: StarHunter25


So with the changes to chainswords, could we possible see chainaxes at S: +1 AP-1 dam1 +1 attack? Berserksers would be a whole heck of a lot scarier with that.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/20 16:00:39


Post by: mrhappyface


StarHunter25 wrote:
So with the changes to chainswords, could we possible see chainaxes at S: +1 AP-1 dam1 +1 attack? Berserksers would be a whole heck of a lot scarier with that.

Hopefully they'll get 2A base as well and/or a form of rage + furious charge next ed. 4/5 attacks on the charge each at S5/6 AP-1 and a boltpistol shot: should be nasty.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/20 22:30:00


Post by: Groslon


 mrhappyface wrote:

Hopefully they'll get 2A base as well and/or a form of rage + furious charge next ed. 4/5 attacks on the charge each at S5/6 AP-1 and a boltpistol shot: should be nasty.


I'd buy that for a dollar. Here's hoping we have embiggened berzerkers by Christmas.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 02:50:03


Post by: Novelist47


I think that on a similar vein of how Khorne Daemonkin basically made a Khorne faction, 8th edition is going to start off with a Nurgle faction. Death Guard models have shown to be super mutated, and even big M himself is going to show up. Would make sense imo for a nurgle faction to pop up in 40k, the same way it popped up in Fantasy.

If that does happen, I'm excited to see a Tzeentch and Slaanesh codex get released.

Also I hope that there is a dedicated GW codex for Heretics and Renegades, or at the very least a supplementary codex. Forgeworld stuff and 8th edition are a bit iffy at the moment, and I want my models to still be useful.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 03:09:11


Post by: ERJAK


 mrhappyface wrote:
StarHunter25 wrote:
So with the changes to chainswords, could we possible see chainaxes at S: +1 AP-1 dam1 +1 attack? Berserksers would be a whole heck of a lot scarier with that.

Hopefully they'll get 2A base as well and/or a form of rage + furious charge next ed. 4/5 attacks on the charge each at S5/6 AP-1 and a boltpistol shot: should be nasty.


I'd think probably 4 attacks would be the baseline they'd start with with the way playtesters are talkin


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 04:31:17


Post by: BrianDavion


 Novelist47 wrote:
I think that on a similar vein of how Khorne Daemonkin basically made a Khorne faction, 8th edition is going to start off with a Nurgle faction. Death Guard models have shown to be super mutated, and even big M himself is going to show up. Would make sense imo for a nurgle faction to pop up in 40k, the same way it popped up in Fantasy.

If that does happen, I'm excited to see a Tzeentch and Slaanesh codex get released.

Also I hope that there is a dedicated GW codex for Heretics and Renegades, or at the very least a supplementary codex. Forgeworld stuff and 8th edition are a bit iffy at the moment, and I want my models to still be useful.


Tzeetch already exists. we got them in december


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 04:43:19


Post by: lindsay40k


I'm going to have to get a box of Berzerkers soon. I actually like the antique kit, it mixes really well with HH plastics to make brutal-looking Khornate Word Bearers that look distinct to more baroque World Eaters. Plus it has sheathed swords that I've already WYSIWYG'd my Raptors with

How far is 48K going to go with WYSIWYG, actually? I've got loads of Bolter guys with no holstered pistol...


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 20:36:48


Post by: mrhappyface


So now we have the Swarmlord statline:

(The lord also has AP-3 and d6 wounds on each of it's attacks)

I'm personally guessing the Daemon Prince will be almost exactly the same as this as well as a 5++ invul. What do you guys think, is this likely to be the stats for a DP and if so is it good? I personally would like it.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 20:51:12


Post by: BrianDavion


 mrhappyface wrote:
So now we have the Swarmlord statline:

(The lord also has AP-3 and d6 wounds on each of it's attacks)

I'm personally guessing the Daemon Prince will be almost exactly the same as this as well as a 5++ invul. What do you guys think, is this likely to be the stats for a DP and if so is it good? I personally would like it.


it'd bepretty nice if that was the stats of a demon prince. my gut feeling is the deamon prince won't be QUITE as powerful, (keep in mind the swarm lord is supposed to be the tyranids biggest baddest special unit.) but it'll proably be similer. my guess is the DP'll have less attacks. but otherwise be similer. the DP may also be a little slower (but we dunno how wings are gonna come into play here)


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/21 23:45:25


Post by: Roknar


I dunno, the daemon prince models are pretty small and their not THAT tough in the current edition. I think they might squeeze him in at 8 wounds so as to give him protection.
Does AoS still have daemons? Whatever a prince does there is probably more or less what we'll be getting here too.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 08:49:42


Post by: Waaargh


With wings and sword he moves 12", hits on 3+ and AP -1, has 8 wounds.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 09:19:25


Post by: Rippy


Hopefully DP has 10 wounds, so doesn't have degenerating effects


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 09:53:25


Post by: mrhappyface


BrianDavion wrote:it'd bepretty nice if that was the stats of a demon prince. my gut feeling is the deamon prince won't be QUITE as powerful, (keep in mind the swarm lord is supposed to be the tyranids biggest baddest special unit.) but it'll proably be similer. my guess is the DP'll have less attacks. but otherwise be similer. the DP may also be a little slower (but we dunno how wings are gonna come into play here)

I thought the current DP and SL had very similar stat lines, am I wrong? Also a DP in law is much faster and more dangerous than almost all other mortal beings (hence WS9 I8).
Roknar wrote:I dunno, the daemon prince models are pretty small and their not THAT tough in the current edition. I think they might squeeze him in at 8 wounds so as to give him protection.
Does AoS still have daemons? Whatever a prince does there is probably more or less what we'll be getting here too.

The DP model is about the same size as a SL isn't it?
AoS still has daemons: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-daemons-of-chaos-en.pdf
It's a bit weaker (well a lot weaker) than the 8th ed SL.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 09:54:53


Post by: koooaei


Guilliman is likely to be a DP DP is likely to have Guilliman statline.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 12:50:53


Post by: lindsay40k


Yeah, DPs & (naked) Primarchs seem to be roughly similar in terms of profiles, though Primarchs are a bit stronger.

It is a bit of a worry, though. Currently it takes four successful Lascannon Wounds to bring one down. That's equivalent to 14W in 48K. That said, they'll have a lower wound rate, so I guess it'll probably survive one round of Devastator fire. One will miss, one won't wound, maybe save one, so probably take about 5W on average?

I suppose they'll probably be fast on their feet, so cover hopping to deny LOS will be feasible. Wonder how flying is going to work? Sigmarhammer wings don't seem to confer the ability to evade cannonballs...


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 12:54:49


Post by: koooaei


 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, DPs & (naked) Primarchs seem to be roughly similar in terms of profiles, though Primarchs are a bit stronger.

It is a bit of a worry, though. Currently it takes four successful Lascannon Wounds to bring one down. That's equivalent to 14W in 48K. That said, they'll have a lower wound rate, so I guess it'll probably survive one round of Devastator fire. One will miss, one won't wound, maybe save one, so probably take about 5W on average?

I suppose they'll probably be fast on their feet, so cover hopping to deny LOS will be feasible. Wonder how flying is going to work? Sigmarhammer wings don't seem to confer the ability to evade cannonballs...


The difference is that they're likely to be able to hide behind those cultists.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/22 13:54:11


Post by: Roknar


Hmm looking at that profile it seems a fair bit worse than the current prince. Maybe they won't be so similar after all. Though I suspect the 8 inch move and wounds will stay.
I highly doubt a prince will be hitting on a 4+ though. We'll also probably keep the option for power armour and wings. So nurgle makes no sense for the 40k version.
Gotta say I'm excited to see an undivided version , hope that is brought over. The other gods don't seem to be created equally though, Slaanesh and tzeentch in particular seem a bit underwhelming.
One single spell for a daemon prince? Is that a common thing in AoS? Because if a mere aspiring champion can cast a single spell, you'd figure a prince of tzeentch should be able to do better XD.
Plus tzeentch is the only one that can cast spells? No way that's gonna make it into 40k.

Tbh, other than the 8 wounds and movement speed (and Leadership probably) I don't think the 40k prince will be anything like this.
Khorne might hit on 2+ but that's about it.
Not being able to target a prince though would be a pretty big boon compared to the current version.
Especially for khorne and slaanesh, what with slaanesh being the fastest atm and khorne just being all around unpleasant in CC.
I doubt they'll turn them into knight killers though like the swarmlord. I'd expect them to be more in the tyrant ballpark.
Also makes me wonder how they'll treat greater daemons.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 01:42:50


Post by: lindsay40k


Here's a thing - as Summoning will be using a budget set aside by not spending points on army selection, it seems likely we'll have the option to bring in units that are more than the bare minimum size plus command group? Four Bloodcrushers to decisively smash a Tactical Squad on an objective, six Flamers to really torch something, a dozen Screamers to rip up a Land Raider... and so on.

I suspect there'll be an element here of multiple list building, and also of jigsaw lists - pack in your figure case a bunch of Daemon units in numbers making them worth, say, 120pts, with a 240pt Summoning budget.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 14:32:24


Post by: SagesStone


Well if it just copies AoS' summoning it'll say how many you get in the unit, but you'll likely end up with the base unit possibly with upgrades but likely not more models.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 17:39:27


Post by: andysonic1


With the new Death Guard faction focus showcasing just how tough these bastards are now, I am super excited to see just how murderous World Eaters are. Thousand Sons are masters of magic, Emps Children are fast and strike first, what will the blood god get? Tons of attacks? Murderous Strike like mad? Charge 3D6? Actually good chain axes?

I am excite.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 19:59:09


Post by: gnome_idea_what


 andysonic1 wrote:
With the new Death Guard faction focus showcasing just how tough these bastards are now, I am super excited to see just how murderous World Eaters are. Thousand Sons are masters of magic, Emps Children are fast and strike first, what will the blood god get? Tons of attacks? Murderous Strike like mad? Charge 3D6? Actually good chain axes?

I am excite.

They'll probably get -2 rending chainaxes (based on estimated AP-rending conversion), rerolls to hit in melee (based on Death Guard getting something similar) and a not insignificant amount of attacks (their predisposition for melee). I'd expect them to still want some kind of delivery mechanism.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 20:01:03


Post by: andysonic1


 gnome_idea_what wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
With the new Death Guard faction focus showcasing just how tough these bastards are now, I am super excited to see just how murderous World Eaters are. Thousand Sons are masters of magic, Emps Children are fast and strike first, what will the blood god get? Tons of attacks? Murderous Strike like mad? Charge 3D6? Actually good chain axes?

I am excite.

They'll probably get -2 rending chainaxes (based on estimated AP-rending conversion), rerolls to hit in melee (based on Death Guard getting something similar) and a not insignificant amount of attacks (their predisposition for melee). I'd expect them to still want some kind of delivery mechanism.
Seeing as World Eaters in Traitor Legions preferred to hoof it rather than ride a Rhino, I think we'll see something similar in their 8th rules. Maybe they get to keep the pre-game free move.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 20:06:05


Post by: TheLumberJack


Do you guys think there are going to be individual codexes released for Death Guard and Thousand Sons or they will all just be in the Chaos Marine book?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/23 20:18:34


Post by: andysonic1


 TheLumberJack wrote:
Do you guys think there are going to be individual codexes released for Death Guard and Thousand Sons or they will all just be in the Chaos Marine book?
Right now? One book. In the future? Multiple books.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 18:40:25


Post by: Groslon


So the Imperial I book (about space marines) lists the generic army, and then six specific variants. Anyone wondering how they will break up our book? Are you hoping for them to cram in something specific?

Since they said there will be future codex equivalents I wonder if the cult marines will be included, or if they will be expansions? I am also curious about other legions, Iron Warriors specifically.

I also super want to see more Dark Mechanicum and Renegade Knights.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 18:42:47


Post by: BrianDavion


 Groslon wrote:
So the Imperial I book (about space marines) lists the generic army, and then six specific variants. Anyone wondering how they will break up our book? Are you hoping for them to cram in something specific?

Since they said there will be future codex equivalents I wonder if the cult marines will be included, or if they will be expansions? I am also curious about other legions, Iron Warriors specifically.

I also super want to see more Dark Mechanicum and Renegade Knights.



I suspect chaos will be smallish, but we do know Legion rules will be a thing.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 18:50:27


Post by: Wayniac


I wonder how they will individualize legions. I want my Iron Warriors to be masters of siege warfare, or Black Legion to have some sort of perk from having all the different types, etc. something to differentiate a legion from your run of the mill chaos renegades.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 19:01:08


Post by: BrianDavion


Wayniac wrote:
I wonder how they will individualize legions. I want my Iron Warriors to be masters of siege warfare, or Black Legion to have some sort of perk from having all the different types, etc. something to differentiate a legion from your run of the mill chaos renegades.


my worries about masters of seige warfare is that it could turn out useless in nine out of ten games. still if Iron warriors mearly get some stratagems that allow them to take out frotifications easier that could be good


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 19:36:43


Post by: Groslon


Wayniac wrote:
I wonder how they will individualize legions. I want my Iron Warriors to be masters of siege warfare, or Black Legion to have some sort of perk from having all the different types, etc. something to differentiate a legion from your run of the mill chaos renegades.


Some Legion-specific stratagems and a few special force org charts would make me feel good. That would really push the "build your army this way and get cool tricks" thing that pulls the background into play.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 19:59:48


Post by: BlaxicanX


I hope that whatever Emperor's Children get their theme doesn't come down to just "strike first!"

At this point it's kind of iconic, but it always struck me as extremely lazy for their bonus to just be +1 initiative. "Perfection" is an abstract concept but there's gotta be a more creative mechanic to represent it in combat other then just "your dudes strike first".


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 20:22:44


Post by: MagicJuggler


 Groslon wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
I wonder how they will individualize legions. I want my Iron Warriors to be masters of siege warfare, or Black Legion to have some sort of perk from having all the different types, etc. something to differentiate a legion from your run of the mill chaos renegades.


Some Legion-specific stratagems and a few special force org charts would make me feel good. That would really push the "build your army this way and get cool tricks" thing that pulls the background into play.


So you mean...like a Decurion-equivalent?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 20:24:15


Post by: mrhappyface


 MagicJuggler wrote:
 Groslon wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
I wonder how they will individualize legions. I want my Iron Warriors to be masters of siege warfare, or Black Legion to have some sort of perk from having all the different types, etc. something to differentiate a legion from your run of the mill chaos renegades.


Some Legion-specific stratagems and a few special force org charts would make me feel good. That would really push the "build your army this way and get cool tricks" thing that pulls the background into play.


So you mean...like a Decurion-equivalent?

Come on, they won't be gone for good.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 20:29:30


Post by: BlaxicanX


Not only have GW already stated that army books will have their own special FOC's, but we've already seen one in the Death Guard FOC.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 20:30:32


Post by: NoiseMarine with Tinnitus


In 5th ed IIRC that plus 1 initiative, with some lucky dice rolls, let a squad of noisemarines beat the living feth out of a squad of terminators geared for assault as opposed to powerfists.

Glum face opponent.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 20:44:54


Post by: mrhappyface


 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not only have GW already stated that army books will have their own special FOC's, but we've already seen one in the Death Guard FOC.

Where was the DG FOC? I must have missed that.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/24 21:13:57


Post by: gnome_idea_what


 BlaxicanX wrote:
I hope that whatever Emperor's Children get their theme doesn't come down to just "strike first!"

At this point it's kind of iconic, but it always struck me as extremely lazy for their bonus to just be +1 initiative. "Perfection" is an abstract concept but there's gotta be a more creative mechanic to represent it in combat other then just "your dudes strike first".

Honestly I've never been satisfied with how Slaanesh stuff works on the tabletop. Most of the time it comes down to "fast glass cannons with high initiative (or dudes with sonic weapons)," which always seemed a little bland. I hope that Emperor's Children get something interesting for their gimmick.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/26 16:01:37


Post by: Roknar


Geez, with the new captain profile you have to wonder what kind of monster a chaos lord can become.
Spoiler:
[img]

They probably won't b getting a force multiplier effect though. That's not really their thing, I'm guessing that role goes to the dark apostle. Hopefully not just mirror of the chaplains....and this time they better come with a freaking bike or mount at the very least -_-

This is some weird armour though. Seem to be basically a loyalist mark of nurgle if the wounds are standard for a captain.
Very boring profile though, there is literally no choice at all except for the chapter if you count that.
Hope our lords won't get the same treatment, or worse, one specific pre-built lord for termi armour etc.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/26 16:56:37


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
Geez, with the new captain profile you have to wonder what kind of monster a chaos lord can become.
Spoiler:
[img]

They probably won't b getting a force multiplier effect though. That's not really their thing, I'm guessing that role goes to the dark apostle. Hopefully not just mirror of the chaplains....and this time they better come with a freaking bike or mount at the very least -_-

This is some weird armour though. Seem to be basically a loyalist mark of nurgle if the wounds are standard for a captain.
Very boring profile though, there is literally no choice at all except for the chapter if you count that.
Hope our lords won't get the same treatment, or worse, one specific pre-built lord for termi armour etc.

That's the Primaris captain though isn't it? Regular captains might get different stats.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/26 18:07:21


Post by: Roknar


Yea, but csm are supposed to be stepping up their game. At least as far as cult marines are concerned. Model wise they're already the same size pretty much. Just look at that plaguelord.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/26 19:26:09


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
Yea, but csm are supposed to be stepping up their game. At least as far as cult marines are concerned. Model wise they're already the same size pretty much. Just look at that plaguelord.

But will that be for base csm and base lords or just the Primaris equivilent?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/26 21:00:11


Post by: SilverAlien


 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not only have GW already stated that army books will have their own special FOC's, but we've already seen one in the Death Guard FOC.


Are you talking about the death guard faction focus?

It specifically references a death guard detachment having plague marines count as troops, going on to point out it makes it easier to fill out a battalion. Meaning that specific factions have special bonuses for detachments made up of just their faction, not that they have entirely different FOC.

If I missed something please share.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 01:02:09


Post by: Nightlord1987


http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/death-guard-and-ultramarinesnow-thats.html

not sure how to code pictures, but theres an illustration of the Ultras vs Death guard that show an itty bitty Mortarion, and some Carnifex sized Beasts of Nurgle lookin guys that look like one of the Teaser Rumor pictures GW released.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 01:35:11


Post by: SilverAlien


On a similar note, the leaked rules confirms that salvo weapons are gone, which should make noise marines a lot more useful. So that should be nice.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 01:44:57


Post by: Roknar


Are those, Xiphon pattern interceptors in the background?
Also, what are those nurgle triceratops in the bottom left?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 10:09:07


Post by: mrhappyface


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/death-guard-and-ultramarinesnow-thats.html

not sure how to code pictures, but theres an illustration of the Ultras vs Death guard that show an itty bitty Mortarion, and some Carnifex sized Beasts of Nurgle lookin guys that look like one of the Teaser Rumor pictures GW released.

Just use [ img ][ /img ],




Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one has said anything about the big round Nurgle Daemons on the right, new GUO?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 11:21:01


Post by: Demantiae


There probably won't be Legion specific FoC's. There's no need for them really. The generic FoC's pretty much cover everything already, and I suspect GW are moving away from the whole "super special" FoC/Decurion mentality. 90% of armies will work in the vanilla FoC's and they can bring in what they need for specific factions or scenario's. I think GW want's us to focus on picking units for our armies, not picking FoC's/detachments. With chaos you can pick any of the new FoC's with a bunch of troops slots and fill them with cultists, marines or cult troops if you have a cult faction, all with the same FoC.

Legions will probably have a couple special rules each, AL will certainly get their infiltrating troops rule, and hopefully the endless cultists rule again, but these will be faction rules you get for a FoC that is entirely made of AL units. Of course there'll be a restriction (no marks or demons can be taken) but that's as much as you need for faction rules, with the units themselves taking centre stage rather than the detachment. Hopefully there'll be some interesting wargear and maybe psychic powers (legion depending) but you don't need much more than that to give the legions their own character. The biggest difference between an AL and an IW legion on the table will be what units you take rather than what formations you take and what special rules you get.

Stacking special rules is what was at the core of 7th problems, GW is almost certainly going to bee rolling them back and dishing them out sparingly. So you'll get maybe 2-3 special rules per faction and FoC's can only be of one faction. No cross-pollination of special rules any more.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 12:10:18


Post by: Spreelock


My Khorne world eaters are still amazed by other's ability to summon or being invisible. High hopes for my Lord of Skulls getting buffs, I might also get Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage to bloodbath.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 12:24:08


Post by: SagesStone


If AoS is anything to go by we'll probably see 1-2 rules per faction as a reward for going purely into that faction/legion.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:06:38


Post by: Roknar


I just realized that the new weapon type rules might be nuts for csm. There seems to be no restriction of firing and assaulting anymore. So plasma chosen or auto cannon havocs can walk up , unload a ton of dakka, and then STILL assault.
Specifially BL plasma chosen could be sweet for being troops and holding objectives but still being able to attack without holding back if anything comes close enough.
Or flamers, move 6, run 5 (crusader currently) and then flame. Seems you can advanc and still shoot assault but at -1, but since you auto hit with flamers...
8th is shaping to be a completely different game indeed.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:14:46


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
I just realized that the new weapon type rules might be nuts for csm. There seems to be no restriction of firing and assaulting anymore. So plasma chosen or auto cannon havocs can walk up , unload a ton of dakka, and then STILL assault.

But why would you assault with ranged chosen/havocs? Although I could see you doing it with terminators: give them all combi-plasmas and power weapons, drop down from deep strike, fire all your plasmas twice (cause combi) then charge and tear your opponant appart in melee. Even more spicy is the idea that, within 12", termies with combi plasma get rapidfire plasma and can fire twice with combi so that is 4x S7 AP-3 shots each!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:27:38


Post by: Roknar


Why not? Midrange units like plasma chosen didn''t want to assault because that stopped them from shooting, not because they didn't want to assault. They still would have had 4 attacks on the charge each, but firing plasma was better. Now you can fire plasma AND attack, and it's even better now because you get to strike first and cause even more casualties before the other gets a chance to hit back. It's like have 5 long range plasma pistols now. And Mok now even makes sense on such a unit if you think they can survive without MoN. And you even get MORE kills due to battleshocks. Wiping the enemy unit is no longer a concern since you aren't safe in melee anyway, you just want to pile on the wounds.

A unit of BL chosen with plasma could camp on an objective and only get more dangerous the closer your opponent gets. And cover got better too in some cases, so shooting them out might not be easy.
Obviously it's not going to generally improve units and some will benefit more than others, but since csm have always been a CC oriented army, being able to now shoot better while we move in closer might be pretty awesome. We don't NEED relentless models to do that now, everything can move/shoot/assault. Termies just got even better doing it.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:35:14


Post by: mrhappyface


Aye, I suppose.
Although, as always, it will depend on the unit that you are charging.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:50:03


Post by: Roknar


Oh, right, you can even fire pistols in addition to the plasma XD
And yea, just saying, there is potential for nastyness ^^


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 19:59:23


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
Oh, right, you can even fire pistols in addition to the plasma XD
And yea, just saying, there is potential for nastyness ^^

If only we could duel wield combi-plasmas, imagine: a 5 man termi squad dropping down behind a big monster and dropping 40 S8 AP-3 D2 shots on say, a Knight:
2/3*1/2*2/3*40*2 = 26 wounds

Goodbye Knight!

(Just wishful thinking though)


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 20:01:10


Post by: Sonic Keyboard


How do you get a combi-plasma to fire 4 shots with it's plasma part?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 20:23:25


Post by: mrhappyface


Sonic Keyboard wrote:
How do you get a combi-plasma to fire 4 shots with it's plasma part?

My bad, I was thinking 2 shots with plasma and 2 with the boltgun but in my head that translated to "of course, that means 4 shots with the plasma part!".


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 20:30:19


Post by: Sonic Keyboard


What if 'Death to the False Emperor' will allow CSM to fire twice in exchange to reloading in the next turn and/or being stationary, like in HH or 2nd edition? Were there any leaks of that rule?

Also Reaper autocannon now fires 4 shots because Twin-linked!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 20:43:43


Post by: SilverAlien


I believe that rule was rumored/leaked to apparently give rerolls in melee of some sort, but I never saw anything official for that.

Also, who else is excited for plague marines? Pretty nice way to fill up troop slots look like.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/27 21:05:29


Post by: Vryce


Sonic Keyboard wrote:
What if 'Death to the False Emperor' will allow CSM to fire twice in exchange to reloading in the next turn and/or being stationary, like in HH or 2nd edition? Were there any leaks of that rule?

Also Reaper autocannon now fires 4 shots because Twin-linked!



[/i]Supposedly[i] DttFE allows to roll add'l attacks in combat if you roll a 6 to hit. I haven't seen anything in the actual leaks or teasers that have surfaced, just something I saw on FB where someone screen shotted their phone after a convo w/ their LGS after pre-ordering some 8th ed stuff, and the store owner said 'Oh, by the way...'.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/28 12:02:18


Post by: mrhappyface


Not sure if it has been covered at all yet but it would seem now that models that can fly do not get penalised for falling back, from the warhammer tv twitch stream today: (paraphrasing) "When falling back you will not be able to advance, shoot or charge that turn unless you have the ability to fly".

For context he was reading how falling back will work in the new edition and I don't think he meant to say the last bit on stream.

If this is true (and he wasn't just winding us up) then DP and Greater Daemons are gonna be really nasty: your army shoots a unit, the Daemon charges in to hold that unit up for a turn, you fly out again during your turn and repeat. Could be quite tasty.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/28 13:16:00


Post by: Roknar


According to the leaks flying only affects shooting, so no charging back in. Not sure where the rules stand on psychic powers though, seems like you can use those whenever you want so far.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 13:02:23


Post by: Roknar


Just putting this up here. We have a bunch of leaks for chaos units: http://imgur.com/a/kPLQc


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 13:14:19


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
Just putting this up here. We have a bunch of leaks for chaos units: http://imgur.com/a/kPLQc

Not sure whether I am happy that the Daemon Weapon rule has stayed the same, too many times has a roll of 1 led to me losing games. It also seems like a few other "Woah chaos is so random" rules have stayed, case in point the obliterators.

Hmmm, we'll have to see.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 13:41:39


Post by: Roknar


Actually they got hit with the nerfbat pretty hard. If I'm reading that right, you roll regardless of whether or not you intend to use the weapon, which is the same as before, but if you roll a 1, instead of "just" taking a hit to WS you actually don't get to use it at all AND you take a wound no matter what where before you could use an invulnerable save. That's much more harsh then it used to be.
On the flipside though, they seem to be doing d3 damage now, meaning with his (potential) 12 attacks he could deal up to 36 wounds XD I don't see why that wouldn't be part of other daemon weapons too, drachnyen wasn't all that special, hell, the blind axe was better. So one the one hand they got a nerf, on the other they could do ludicrous damage.
Still sucks for being AP -3 though, you'd think rending reality would merit a higher rend value, but I guess d3 damage per wound is pretty nice.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 13:47:58


Post by: mrhappyface


 Roknar wrote:
Actually they got hit with the nerfbat pretty hard. If I'm reading that right, you roll regardless of whether or not you intend to use the weapon, which is the same as before, but if you roll a 1, instead of "just" taking a hit to WS you actually don't get to use it at all AND you take a wound no matter what where before you could use an invulnerable save. That's much more harsh then it used to be.
On the flipside though, they seem to be doing d3 damage now, meaning with his (potential) 12 attacks he could deal up to 36 wounds XD I don't see why that wouldn't be part of other daemon weapons too, drachnyen wasn't all that special, hell, the blind axe was better. So one the one hand they got a nerf, on the other they could do ludicrous damage.
Still sucks for being AP -3 though, you'd think rending reality would merit a higher rend value, but I guess d3 damage per wound is pretty nice.

Well it some ways it is worse: take an automatic wound and you can't use Drachnyen, but in some ways it is better: rather than dropping your WS you just can't use Drachnyen, that means you can still make your attacks with the talon of Horus.

You are right with the AP though, Abaddon should realistically be able to cut through termies like butter.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 13:55:01


Post by: Roknar


Hmm, good point about the talon. It kind of makes daemon weaponsa little more expensive. On a lord you might want to bring a second weapon now just in case since you are completely boned if you roll a one and don't have a back up now. The WS penalty still manged to cause some wounds at least.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:02:32


Post by: mrhappyface


What I also noticed is that if I were to put all my attacks into the talon I would still have to make d6 attacks with Drachnyen due to it's Daemon rule. Is that good? Well it isn't bad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:07:55


Post by: C.Straken


First thing I noticed was Raptors are 17ppm

Warp Talons are 15ppm

I hope Raptors got a massive buff...

Also, I am confused by this whole buy the model (excluding wargear) stuff... Does that mean you have to build the squad completely or does it actually mean buy the model with basic wargear.

Because I don't want to have to pay 17pts for a Raptor, plus, X for a Pistol, plus X for a Chainsword, plus X for frag grenades, plus X for krak grenades, plus X for power armour, plus X for Jump pack.

I guess we need to see the list building process to get a proper answer.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:19:23


Post by: Roknar


The way it reads is that you pay for the models individually rather than a base unit cost + additional models, you still have min unit sizes though. You also pay for all the gear they have, BUT, that gear might just cost zero points. So currently there's no way to tell how much our untis will actually end up costing. The warp talons may or may not have to pay for their lightning claws, though I very much suspect they will have to. Raptors on the other hand probably only have to pay for plasma and the sorts rather than having to pay for their bolt pistols.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:26:15


Post by: FudgeDumper


In the chaos unit list, i see "fallen". Could it be some kind of infiltrating mini cyphers?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:42:09


Post by: Roknar


Gathering storm (re)introduced fallen as something other than slightly altered chosen, so that's what those will be. Never checked their actual rules mind you so I don't know what to expect there.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 14:42:47


Post by: ERJAK


FudgeDumper wrote:
In the chaos unit list, i see "fallen". Could it be some kind of infiltrating mini cyphers?


Fallen already exist in current 40k. Rules and everything, they're in GS3


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 15:22:25


Post by: mrhappyface


C.Straken wrote:First thing I noticed was Raptors are 17ppm

Warp Talons are 15ppm

I hope Raptors got a massive buff...

Also, I am confused by this whole buy the model (excluding wargear) stuff... Does that mean you have to build the squad completely or does it actually mean buy the model with basic wargear.

Because I don't want to have to pay 17pts for a Raptor, plus, X for a Pistol, plus X for a Chainsword, plus X for frag grenades, plus X for krak grenades, plus X for power armour, plus X for Jump pack.

I guess we need to see the list building process to get a proper answer.

I'm guessing you pay for all their base wargear along with the model, the "excluding wargear" will likely be for extra stuff.


Now that you mention Fallen I notice their cost: 14ppm, 1 more than CSM but 2 less than Chosen. Wonder what makes them different?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 15:29:39


Post by: C.Straken


I do hope that "excluding wargear" is only the bonus stuff and you get the basic weapons included.

And I fully expect it to work lile that, but that seems like awkward wording without the context of list building as a whole.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 15:52:43


Post by: Strg Alt


Heretic Astartes Points Values:

Why is it important to mention the Chaos Lord/Chaos Sorcerer several times with different loadouts instead of giving each of them just one unit entry? It worked in the past. Is this some unfathomable AoS heresy?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 15:57:26


Post by: Yoyoyo


They're scaling the most fundamental upgrades (TDA, mobility).

Weapons are going to have a standardized cost.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:05:01


Post by: Kajaki War Pig


Good lord obliterators got nerfed. One of my favorite units, now completely random, and they don't have powerfists anymore which makes them useless in a charge. Assault 2? What the hell are you even supposed to do with this. They're barely gonna scratch heavy armor. Grrrr, with that rant out of the way.

Knights look nice, I'm happy with that, plus the variety of options for range weaponry.

I REALLY wanna see the Warp Talons points after the lightning claws, and maybe some special rules. I'm hoping they're actually gonna see the tabletop this year.

Teleporting doesn't scatter. My Raptor talon is about to stack bodies. This was killing my night lords, so with that sorta out, and assault from deepstrike, good things are about to happen there methinks.

I really wanna know the Helldrake's attack value, and see if he just became far more feasible as a close combat model. Baleflamer, plus an attack with maybe 4 Str 7 strikes? I could dig that.

Finally, is anyone else disappointed in the Psychic Disciplines so far?



8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:28:57


Post by: Roknar


I'm partial to the psychic disciplines. I would have preferred 6 decent powers, but they never managed to do that, so giving us 3 powers that are all usable is close enough. Especially considering THEY'RE NOT FRICKIN RANDOM *praises the darg gods*


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:33:30


Post by: mrhappyface


 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

Finally, is anyone else disappointed in the Psychic Disciplines so far?

Yeah, they've been nerfed to the point of being boring.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:34:21


Post by: MagicJuggler


I imagine that with the general changes to character rules (no more ICs, Challenges, etc) that Champion of Chaos/Chaos Boons are most likely no longer a thing.

This kind of makes me sad; while the system was clunky if you weren't building around it, and always had the potential to screw you up ("I fried your Sergeant with Psychic Shriek" *rolls dice* "Spawndom?!!?"), the Chaos Warband ultimately made it more of a boon(ha!). I do hope there is at least some mechanic that replaces it: "Replenish spent Command Points when you slay enemy characters" would be a nice one.

Otherwise...guess it's "Spiky Loyalists" again I suppose. Bleh.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:35:51


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Infernal gaze seems pretty poor. not much different to smite, and 1-2 wounds isn't going to change much, or offset the not inconsiderable risk of perils.

*** unless psychic power bypass the character targeting restriction?- in which case, decent sniper power? Tho characters seem to have a lot more wounds ***

Warptime seems very solid for getting into combat before the enemy get's their shooting phase in. Power 6, is not particularly reliable (come onnn spell familiarr still being a thing)


Presence is decent. of course can't effect a unit and a character like we're used to.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:37:52


Post by: Roknar


Interestingly there doesn't seem to be any categorization anymore. The power tells you what's what. So prescience could be cast on ENEMY heretic astartes. I HIGHLY doubt that will ever be useful, but I thought it was an interesting observation.

Overall it seems the powers operate completely according to what they say, so won't suffer from -1 to hit flyers, be able to be cast in melee etc unless they say so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Infernal gaze seems pretty poor. not much different to smite, and 1-2 wounds isn't going to change much, or offset the not inconsiderable risk of perils.

Warptime seems very solid for getting into combat before the enemy get's their shooting phase in. Power 6, is not particularly reliable (come onnn spell familiarr still being a thing)


Presence is decent. of course can't effect a unit and a character like we're used to.


That depends, if this can bypass the not whole no-shooting-at characters-unless-they're-close thing, this could cause up to 3 unsaveable wounds as they are their own units.
Maybe there is still a restriction of casting one power per guy, so this would let you cast smite in addition, so basically double smite.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:46:39


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Jump packs in land raiders is a thing. and because you get out, move, then assault.. decent charge range.

Maybe not raptors.. but warp talons, or a jump lord. It could be a solid way of getting around.

Full pack of warp talons in a spartan could be a thing.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:48:28


Post by: FudgeDumper


It it 65 points for 3 oblits or for 1?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:49:08


Post by: Roknar


Coming back to Word bearers though, the DG leak could be very interesting indeed. They get their own personal powers that only work on other DG members, so these aren't nurgle powers per se. Could just be a starter kit quirk, but there are going to have to be normal nurgle powers too, since non DG can also take the mark of nurgle and cast powers.

So, with any luck word bearers get their own daemonic centered discipline that cloud make them stand out as far as summoning goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FudgeDumper wrote:
It it 65 points for 3 oblits or for 1?

It says points per model so that's for 1.
And I agree that obliterators are done poorly. Centurions got to keep their multiple profiles, why not oblits. They're basically chaos flashgitz now ^_-


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:52:53


Post by: Vaktathi


Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:54:51


Post by: CovenantGuardian


 n0t_u wrote:
If AoS is anything to go by we'll probably see 1-2 rules per faction as a reward for going purely into that faction/legion.


On the GW twitch questions chat, he mentioned faction specific stratagems exist which works on hierarchy basis. So if you you have different main factions(eldar,tau), only get rulebook stratagems. If you have all imperium(can choose imperium stratagems), all dark angels or astra militarum (gain access to their specific stratagems). Now if the ones in the main rulebook are the best, this gives no benefit, but it's some disadvantage to allies at least.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:55:11


Post by: Franarok


Indeed the magic looks.....meh. In particlar the nurgle one is pretty bad...

Also I can understand that huge HUGE nerf to obliterators.....but I bet centurions will still shot like hell their op grav weapons.

The new weapon to obliterators is bad. The random is bad....pay 65 for a guy that maybe do 2 s7 ap-1 shoots at 24'? no way

Also why they lost the fist? they should cost, just because that, at least 20 pts less


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 16:57:55


Post by: CovenantGuardian


 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:13:35


Post by: Vaktathi


CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.
Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:17:31


Post by: CovenantGuardian


 Vaktathi wrote:
CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.
Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.


You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:20:43


Post by: McGibs


The psychic powers are toned down, but there's way more of them flying around in 8th because every psyker will be casting them.
For infernal gaze, it seems decent because:
A: it gives you another mortal-wound power. Psykers can only cast each power once per phase, so having both smite and gaze lets them really blast things.
B: It's targeted, rather than being closest unit. Potentially great for stripping characters.

I'm sad about the obliterators. I don't think its much of a nerf, the weapons are still good and the randomness is small enough to not make that much difference (goes from autocannon to mini-lascannon). It's more that it's boring. Being able to pick basically any weapon was a cool gimmick, and made oblits unique. They probably wanted to make the oblits (mid/close range blasters) more distinct from havoks (long range firepower)
Loss of the powerfist stings too, but I guess they wanted mutilators to be more attractive (I'm guessing they'll have the same D3 style weapons, but for melee).

With terminators being minimum 5 models now, I guess characters cant ride in landraiders with them anymore?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:23:58


Post by: Franarok


indeed is a sha for chaos the minimum 5 terminators. Chaos land raider cant carry them...

Also what a lost chance of get the other land raider options


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:25:23


Post by: Vaktathi


CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.
Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.


You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.
Oh you mean the Rhino's ability to charge itself, well, that has some utility, for sure, but doubling its points cost for that alone feels...dramatically excessive, particularly when many units riding in them won't necessarily be assault units and therefore will derive basically 0 benefit from such an ability.

Given GW's track record over the last 20 years and looking at what's happening to Obliterators, LRBT's, and some of the other things we've seen, and having played this game for many editions, my gut feeling is saying that's going to be a borked costing rather than a legitimate reflection of value. I could be wrong, absolutely, but that's how it's shaping up in my eyes.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:26:47


Post by: Roknar


I dunno about nurgle. Those are DEATH GUARD powers. They' can't possibly give only deathguard nurgle powers while leaving the rest of the chaos undivided legions in the dirt.
Black Legion and Word Bearers only getting marks and their sorcerers not getting access to nurgle powers would be stupid beyond belief.
That said, I would assume that DG get access to dark heretic powers too, so they have smite, plaguewind and infernal gaze to spam mortal wounds. Sounds pretty nasty to me.
Gift of contagion got worse though, they should have let you choose which effect you gain if they wanted to nerf the actual effect. Not that it needed nerfing. -1 Toughness isn't as useful as it used to be, nor is -1 strength.
Plague of pestilence also works in melee from what I can tell, that makes it pretty decent. At least for already tough units like (hopefully) terminators.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:35:13


Post by: McGibs


Franarok wrote:
indeed is a sha for chaos the minimum 5 terminators. Chaos land raider cant carry them...

Also what a lost chance of get the other land raider options


Radiers can still carry 5 terminators, they just can't carry anything else along with them (each termy is 2 slots)


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:41:36


Post by: Korinov


 Vaktathi wrote:
Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.


I was almost going to begin assembling two of them from diverse spare parts. Already had the power fists ready.



The nerf is quite a thing, and making them five points cheaper in exchange of random weapons and losing their power fists is a bit insulting. They were an old unit with very clearly defined and unique mechanics, now that's been taken away in favour of MORE randomness. The new shooting profile is not that bad, but it's random, and in the end a loss of options if compared to what they could do before. Not to mention, without fists AND flamers, they've become pretty useless in melee.

If they wanted to make Mutilators more attractive they should have come up with ways of making them so, instead of nerfing the Oblits.

I'll probably go ahead with the conversions anyway because at this stage I couldn't care less about what GW rules say, but these kind of issues are always annoying as hell.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:44:27


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I don't know if it applies for match play, but there was something about taking under strength units, and still paying full points for them.
So it would not be cheap but you could still get characters into the raider with terminators


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:55:36


Post by: Roknar


It's not just the random FUN. Their effective range got cut in half with the loss of long range profiles like the lascannon. It doesn't even make sense lorewise, since they can mutate into whatever they need and they used to do just that.
Possessed are in the same boat, those have been suffering from random tables too. Oblits are less random but It's still pretty silly and really wasn't needed.
Plus they were better vs any given target since you could choose the appropriate weapon. And now they only ever get two shots and you need a minimum of 3 so in a way they even got more expensive.
They really kinda stink compared to the old ones.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 17:57:05


Post by: Sonic Keyboard


Another edition where we have to run sorcerers and heldrakes to have a chance, so exciting.

Oblits vs centurions:
2 shots with S7-9, Ap1-3 and damage D3
vs
D3 shots with S8, Ap2 and damage D3
about equal... and then centuions also get 2 lascannon shots with S9 Ap3 and D6 damage.
Seems balanced.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 18:35:09


Post by: DoomMouse


Well, we don't have the points for cents yet, I believe?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 18:40:01


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need.


Yep. Instead of making the Possessed more like the Obliterators, now the Obliterators are randumb like the old Possessed.
In addition, the rule is incredibly impratical. Roll 3d3, then the first is one stat, the second is another, the third is a third weapon stat.
"Wait, which one is what? Ah you used coloured dice?"
"Yes"
"You forgot to say which one is what"
"Sorry now I will roll them in order instead, for all my 4 units"

Well, I should have expected that. The game is new, but the designers are the same incompetent bunch.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 18:40:12


Post by: Vaktathi


looking at the supposed Sister's leaks on Faeit212, it looks like Rhino's are T7 W10, which, if they have a 3+ save, would make them hardier than Dreads, which I guess would account for the higher cost of 70pts, but I'm wondering why they would be so dramatically up-armored.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need.


Yep. Instead of making the Possessed more like the Obliterators, now the Obliterators are randumb like the old Possessed.
In addition, the rule is incredibly impratical. Roll 3d3, then the first is one stat, the second is another.
"Wait, which one is what? Ah you used coloured dice?"
"Yes"
"You forgot to say which one is what"
"Sorry now I will roll them in order instead, for all my 4 units"

Well, I should have expected that. The game is new, but the designers are the same incompetent bunch.
Yeah, more and more that's what I'm thinking myself. I hope I'm wrong, but it's shaping up to be the same old dog and pony show we've seen before despite all the talk of community engagement and tournament feedback and the like.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 18:44:49


Post by: BlaxicanX


24" range doesn't matter as much due to oblits having deep-strike. They're basically guaranteed to always be in range of what they want to shoot at. I'm more worried about their damage potential.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:10:00


Post by: SilverAlien


The fact I can literally see half the unique rules for the deathguard is mildly infuriating, wish we could see the entire page. Oh well.

For everyone hating on obliterates look at it as if you have a short range autocannon that gain random buffs each turn. Which... might be okay? Depending on how much autocannon havocs cost (and how useful autocannons are in general).

Also worth mentioning, they don't get power fists but they are str 5 with 3 attacks now. Lack of flamers/autohit is what really hurts them.

Anyone else notice mortarion isn't in the book? Is that normal for models that might not be out on day one?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:14:55


Post by: Don Savik


Looks like all the future deathguard and primaris things are going to be in their own codex. So that probably means thats what the first 2 codexes are going to be. Dissapointing to say the least.

I don't think obliterators will be that bad. I mean, granted they got a nerf from 7th, but we don't know how effective they'll actually be in game. We're still thinking in terms of 7th edition power, myself included. All the math hammering in a vacuum doesn't really do anything either. Remember, they may be toughness 4, but you can't instakill them from doubling them out. And as Blaxican said, you always deep strike them anyways.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:20:38


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Don Savik wrote:

I don't think obliterators will be that bad. I mean, granted they got a nerf from 7th, but we don't know how effective they'll actually be in game. We're still thinking in terms of 7th edition power, myself included. All the math hammering in a vacuum doesn't really do anything either. Remember, they may be toughness 4, but you can't instakill them from doubling them out. And as Blaxican said, you always deep strike them anyways.


I think the 3d3 is intrinsically bad design, and a bad sign, but I admit this is true. Let's still wait and see - the complexity we are facing is huge and we will have a true grasp of it well after the release.
I just find it very bad conceptually and a possible evidence of the design team not leaving behind the old vices.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:22:20


Post by: SilverAlien


I was originally assuming that meant the DG wasn't getting much beyond the starter box (so no unique terminators) but with morty confirmed it looks like they (and most likely the primaris judging by space marine codex list) will be getting early releases.

That or there is a deathguard/primaris section we haven't seen yet, with units unique to them (as the blood angels seem to have).


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:28:24


Post by: Sonic Keyboard


New Oblits are mobile short-ranged centurions. They can fire after running and deep strike, and cost the same 65 points for similar firepower, but can't purchase any additional guns and have invul instead of toughness (though they are only going to use the invul against Ap-4 meltagun-level weaponry).

Rolling 3D3 might not be that bad, if you roll for strength after to hit rolls and for damage after saves, it won't be that confusing.

But I want to see what Possessed now are.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 19:43:10


Post by: lord_blackfang


All the inexplicable nerfs point to a large Chaos release wave soon to sell us new minis that will be actually worth fielding.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 20:01:48


Post by: Roknar


SilverAlien wrote:
The fact I can literally see half the unique rules for the deathguard is mildly infuriating, wish we could see the entire page. Oh well.

For everyone hating on obliterates look at it as if you have a short range autocannon that gain random buffs each turn. Which... might be okay? Depending on how much autocannon havocs cost (and how useful autocannons are in general).

Also worth mentioning, they don't get power fists but they are str 5 with 3 attacks now. Lack of flamers/autohit is what really hurts them.

Anyone else notice mortarion isn't in the book? Is that normal for models that might not be out on day one?


We have a twin autocannon in the blood angels leak: Heavy 4 range 48" S7 AP-2 Damage 2. So the single cannon our havocs get should just be the same profile but Heavy 2.
35 points I think, not sure what that would make an autocannon but I suppose 15-20?
So without changes, we're looking at 205 for 3 oblits vs 150ish for havocs with on average pretty much the same gun except twice the range.
Less wounds and saves, but the wounds can be made up considering you can get about five havocs per oblit.

They don't really seem to offer a whole lot vs havocs, but they are still daemons and now they have a cult of destruction keyword which I presume has some kind of use (unless it's only to say they are bulky), so there is still room to grow.
They're ok but for roughly 50 points more they really should be offering a bit more than deepstrike when there are no flanks anymore and they don't have melta. In melee they both suck about equally.
They're certainly not going to be punching stuff to death. That said, if there is no more dangerous terrain/mishaps, they are going to be hard to shift from cover, which could be a problem if you drop them on an objective.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 21:21:46


Post by: Franarok


New obliterators are way nerfed than old ones.
They lost the fist, losing an huge power at melee.
And the new weapons is way worst. The old ones were more powerful and more flexible, giving you a weapon for each situation

Now the have a autocanon plus where before they could use laser canons or plasma canons... Or twin flammers at melee or any other option.

For 65 the new obliterators are bad. A centurion is way better


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 21:44:42


Post by: Dayve220


A centurion devestator is 65 without gear, the Launcher is 25 and a twin lascannon is 50. Cents are going to be hella expensive!

Also what is everyone thinking for their special weapon choices?
Melta has gone up but is still going to be a solid choice, flamers are probably still decent although they have gone up a bit and hit less horde-type models.
I'm really not impressed with the plasma gun, that 'gets hot' is harsh!

For champions I think the power Axe looks like a nice middle ground. Since you won't get the extra attack for a pistol anymore I think i'd Combi weapons also.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 21:50:40


Post by: Roknar


The plasma overload is brutal lol, but you have more ready access to re-rolling hits via auras so it's fine. Even if not, you're playing chaos, so it's overload all day err day either way


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/29 22:36:27


Post by: SilverAlien


Dayve220 wrote:
A centurion devestator is 65 without gear, the Launcher is 25 and a twin lascannon is 50. Cents are going to be hella expensive!

Also what is everyone thinking for their special weapon choices?
Melta has gone up but is still going to be a solid choice, flamers are probably still decent although they have gone up a bit and hit less horde-type models.
I'm really not impressed with the plasma gun, that 'gets hot' is harsh!

For champions I think the power Axe looks like a nice middle ground. Since you won't get the extra attack for a pistol anymore I think i'd Combi weapons also.


I'm hoping that DG will get a rule allowing the new blight launcher to be taken as a special weapon in the same way blood angels get inferno pistols and hand/heavy flamers added. Even if they do, it depends on pricing, but overall I'm willing to pay for them over plasma.

Melta weapons seem the obvious choice for a lot of units like raptors and chosen that aren't scared of getting close to the enemy, particularly with the new assault weapon rules giving them a bit more mobility. I'm still not sold on flamers, the fact that at least a few units can charge from outside their range consistently has me question their utility. Plasma isn't bad, but it's more for killing normal marines than the now multi wound terminators, which hampers it a bit, not even particularly good vs light transports, at least without the (suicidally dangerous) overcharge.

Combi melta/plasma seems like a strong option for terminators in particular, just because a special weapons squad of terminators sounds fun. The tsons terminators might do that better though, particularly with power swords being a much more useful choice.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 00:24:13


Post by: Azoqu


SilverAlien wrote:
Combi melta/plasma seems like a strong option for terminators in particular, just because a special weapons squad of terminators sounds fun. The tsons terminators might do that better though, particularly with power swords being a much more useful choice.


For either of the terminator units, Deep Strike with a Sorcerer and use the new power Warptime on them to get them to move closer and only need a 4" charge. The Scarab Occult might be able to do it without needing an extra Sorcerer to be bought if their Sorcerer has access to the chaos table himself.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 01:28:51


Post by: Ecdain


 Vaktathi wrote:
CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
CovenantGuardian wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Looking at the Chaos leaks...

Holy crap did Obliterators get hit with a mighty nerf bat they really did not need. Good god did someone bork up that unit.

Looking at the Chaos Land Raider, it looks like it might be usable for once, with an Infernal Spirit and a 2+ save, and legitimately looks way more resilient than in precious editions but does also really confirm for me that, unless the Leman Russ got *stupid* cheap, the classic LRBT is going to be total garbage and is not going to basically be just as fragile as they are now, which is disappointing.

What on earth is a Rhino doing at 70 points...?

The Defiler went *up* in points...again....it better have gotten some insane love.

While obviously these leaks are incomplete thus far, there's a lot of "WTF" going on in some of these, and comparisons to stuff we've already seen really are starting to reinforce that we almost certainly are going to continue to see lots of the old GW still.


Rhinos are insanely good now that it can charge units, at 35 point it would be an OP tarpit. At 70 points, it's still good value.
Well, they can't charge after the Rhino moves, they have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and then can charge, which basically just takes them back to late 4E and 5E where they were 35pts except they can't let the transport move and then disembark and shoot like you could back then.


You misunderstand, the Rhinos ability to charge and delay opposing units is incredible now. Without playing 8th, you don't know how the game plays anymore, your frame of reference is completely based on 7th.
Oh you mean the Rhino's ability to charge itself, well, that has some utility, for sure, but doubling its points cost for that alone feels...dramatically excessive, particularly when many units riding in them won't necessarily be assault units and therefore will derive basically 0 benefit from such an ability.

Given GW's track record over the last 20 years and looking at what's happening to Obliterators, LRBT's, and some of the other things we've seen, and having played this game for many editions, my gut feeling is saying that's going to be a borked costing rather than a legitimate reflection of value. I could be wrong, absolutely, but that's how it's shaping up in my eyes.


Also look that a rhino can carry two different squads now instead of just the one, but also that the rhino can charge first to soak up overwatch. Being in cc is cool, but it's more shielding the guys running in with it that I think adds value.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 01:49:50


Post by: Nightlord1987


Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 02:07:07


Post by: Insectum7


Franarok wrote:
New obliterators are way nerfed than old ones.
They lost the fist, losing an huge power at melee.
And the new weapons is way worst. The old ones were more powerful and more flexible, giving you a weapon for each situation

Now the have a autocanon plus where before they could use laser canons or plasma canons... Or twin flammers at melee or any other option.

For 65 the new obliterators are bad. A centurion is way better


I'm also dissapointed with Obliterators, but seeing that they don't have to pay for their weapons I'm not going to complain much. I'll probably use them anyways, as I'm just finishing the last 3 of 9. Not to mention they appear to be able to Advance and Fire for kicks.

Conceptually I do wish they were Centurion equivalents, but seeing how expensive Centurions are going to be, I'm totally fine (and would rather buy Havocs for Lascannons anyways).

I'm mostly curious to see if Marks are Free/how many points they'll be.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 02:41:32


Post by: MagicJuggler


The Obliterator nerf is just insulting. Like, it's 7th ed Deffrolla levels of insulting.

Between that and losing Champion of Chaos, this really feels like Codex: Spiky Loyalists all over again. Not to mention the hilarity of Heldrakes now averaging 1.1 dead Marines from a Baleflamer.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 02:48:25


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Honestly I'm somewhat glad to see CoC gone. I certainly loved seeing my fully kitted out Chaos Lord turn to Spawndom.. Or becoming a Daemon Prince and becoming weaker. Or that idea that every single Chaos Champion chooses to leeory jenkins it up in melee combat.

Not to mention the thought that they kept upgrades from us because they used it for the CoC table, such as the 2+ that isn't terminator armor.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 03:25:50


Post by: MagicJuggler


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Honestly I'm somewhat glad to see CoC gone. I certainly loved seeing my fully kitted out Chaos Lord turn to Spawndom.. Or becoming a Daemon Prince and becoming weaker. Or that idea that every single Chaos Champion chooses to leeory jenkins it up in melee combat.

Not to mention the thought that they kept upgrades from us because they used it for the CoC table, such as the 2+ that isn't terminator armor.


Maybe it's because the Chaos Warband has me a little spoiled, or that the non-Warband lists tend to be more Cultist-heavy, but Spawndom/Princedom at inopportune times hasn't come up that often. Between that, and the FAQ clarifying that you can kill a character by *any* means (fry that Tac Sergeant with Psychic Shriek), and I've found that it's actually pretty easy to get some budget Smashers running around the table, or to get Bike/Terminator Champs serving as "mini-HQs" in their own right. It may not always work (as you might well run into Necrons or Tyranids or any other army where the HQ is the only character), but it's still entertaining to play herohammer and quest to victory.

I run a Palanquin Sorcerer, and with Nexus of the Gods and Eight-Fold Path, went from 1 wound back to his original 4...my opponent didn't appreciate it, needless to say.

Removed profanity. Don't do that again. - Lorek


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 03:28:17


Post by: Nightlord1987


Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 03:42:16


Post by: MagicJuggler


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.


On average though, a Baledrake kills...1.1 Marine in the open, or 1.62 Plague Zombies. This isn't exactly the sort of math that inspires confidence in their usage. Plus the idea of a Hadesdrake needing 5s to hit is also sad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 05:54:35


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?


Probably just leaving the door open for a future Oblit/Mutilator buffing IC.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 06:25:02


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 MagicJuggler wrote:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Heldrakes also seem to lack the movement restrictions some other listed flyers get. They are basically MCs now, and since most of us have baleflamers, the decreasing BS from damage doesn't affect us. Our birdies can keep burning people, and spinning circles all game till they drop dead. As much as i loved flamer templates, i equally hated blast templates, so I rather see them go.


On average though, a Baledrake kills...1.1 Marine in the open, or 1.62 Plague Zombies. This isn't exactly the sort of math that inspires confidence in their usage. Plus the idea of a Hadesdrake needing 5s to hit is also sad.


BS is a fixed 4+. Its the number of attacks that changes with damage (does anyone know what this is?)

The baleflamer does look a bit sad. 2 damage OK but that doesn't help against infantry. But were we really expecting it to stay awesome?

I think the Helldrake has been changed from support flyer to attack monster. (anyone who's played Freeblade will understand the aesthetics of this)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can take a look at the Tau flyers to see just how different the helldrake is
http://pintorjoakero.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/taus-8th-index-leaks.html

Helldrake can charge other flyers and mess them up


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 06:31:54


Post by: Runic


 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Obliterator nerf is just insulting. Like, it's 7th ed Deffrolla levels of insulting.

Between that and losing Champion of Chaos, this really feels like Codex: Spiky Loyalists all over again. Not to mention the hilarity of Heldrakes now averaging 1.1 dead Marines from a Baleflamer.


The Heldrake is now a pseudoflyer that can charge something 30" away on turn one, even if the Baleflamer is worse than before. Annoying shooty squad in some corner somewhere and you're going first? Get rekt. Obliterators might have some tricks up their sleeve in form of the Cult of Destruction special rule, a character that does something for them (Warpsmith for example) or Legion rules (Iron Warriors comes to mind). They do less than Centurions, but they also cost less.

I wish people would stop comparing Centurions and Obliterators, they are completely different and always have been.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 06:42:47


Post by: Captyn_Bob


whilst that's true.. Oblitorators whole thing, was morphing the right weapon for the situation. And that's gone. So their basic design concept is now vanished in the careless process of streamlining. And that is sad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 07:03:23


Post by: Quarterdime


Captyn_Bob wrote:
whilst that's true.. Oblitorators whole thing, was morphing the right weapon for the situation. And that's gone. So their basic design concept is now vanished in the careless process of streamlining. And that is sad.


That sums it up pretty well.

Although I knew this would happen when they released Mutilators. Obliterators used to be depicted as these unstoppable creatures that could turn into anything. Then some businessman that GW was presumably using to substitute for their creative team looked at them for a moment and said "We could make another version of these dudes with knives". Nobody spoke up. After all, this was under Kirby, remember.

So now the guys who can literally turn themselves into complex weaponry can't turn themselves into a sharp blade.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 07:09:42


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm.

It looks like an infantry unit Champion can still take paired Plasma Pistols, which makes me happy.

Fly seems to just mean 'able to disengage and shoot'. So our Drakes behave like a really big and spikey Crisis Suit, that shoots at a unit and then punches it in the face, then next turn laughs and floats off to shoot up something else? I'm wondering how shooting at Flying units will work - will a Battlecannon hit a diving Drake as easily as it does a Crisis team? Have any proper planes been revealed yet, as it's looking like they might just be big Land Speeders...

Prescience isn't going to make our overcharged Plasma 1s into 2s, is it?

Miasma of Pestilence making enemy shooting subtract 1 - that's going to kill Overwatch. Throw it on a large Bikers unit that's in multiple units' faces and tank for your CQC specialists. BUT it can only be cast on Death Guard - are these powers even available to WB, BL and Renegade Nurgle?

Oblits look... interesting. If your opponent has deployed some long range glass cannons without close support, they'll wreak havoc.

If you examine the Land Raider rules, Cult of Destruction basically seems to mean Very Bulky


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 07:15:20


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I would have liked the new oblits more if it was only one D3 every time for all 3 stats. Roll a 3 - ah, so I'll point them at large targets now. Roll a 1 - okay, I'll rather fire at those Space Marines over there. Now it's overly complicated.

Losing the powerfist hurts pretty much. Also losing high range weapons, you are forced to deep strike them now, which is okay, but I liked them walking up the board and putting out shots from turn 1 better.
Interestingly, the dread is only 7 points more expensive (before upgrades), so I guess it will be our new source of Multimeltas and Plasmacannons .


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 07:17:37


Post by: lindsay40k


Also I'm calling it - Warpsmiths will let Oblits re-roll their D3s.

Shame they cant morph Plasma and more. That's Haemotrope Reactors off my shopping list


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 07:21:29


Post by: BrianDavion


 lindsay40k wrote:
Also I'm calling it - Warpsmiths will let Oblits re-roll their D3s.

Shame they cant morph Plasma and more. That's Haemotrope Reactors off my shopping list


oddly I think not specifying what they turn the weapons into it more sastifying. you can imagine all sorts of weird unusal weapons. necron blasters, eldar scatter lasters, autocannons etc!


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 09:30:02


Post by: Franarok


Beside the heavy nerf to baleflamer on the helldrake... Think that fly only allow you to assault or being assaulted other fly units.
I think.

So, if that is true, the drake can't assault any unit you want, just the o es with the fly rule.

If that is the case, is a huge nerf on the unit because the way lower murder capacity xp. Of course all flammers are now 1d6...but his flammers had torrent, so usually killed lot of models. Why more than normal flammers. Now kill less and not ignored marine armor. Is a nerf

If the dragon can assault any kind of unit and has nice amount of attacks... Then may be balanced, time will say.

And still shocked by the obliterators nerf haha. I had cool models for them xp. Also we lost one of our best nits with las Canon... Now we need put on havocs or vehicles. Mmm


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 09:36:08


Post by: Azoqu


Franarok wrote:
So, if that is true, the drake can't assault any unit you want, just the o es with the fly rule.


I have a feeling it will be able to assault any unit because the talons say they get +1 to hit units with FLY, which would be pointless to add instead of just increasing the WS if that was the case.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 09:42:55


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Check the tau flyers. They have a rule that says they can't assault and can only be assaulted by fly units. The drake doesn't have this. It isn't in the core rules either (that we've seen so far).


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 09:59:24


Post by: Pilau Rice


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Obliterators are my favorite Heavy Support for Chaos. That nerf bat just hit me right in the head. But there might be more to them, they have keyword Cult of Destruction.

Who knows what that could do?


Hopefully something great, as Obs seem a bit poopie now.

But more than likely CoD is the umbrella term for Obliterators and Mutilators .


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 10:17:48


Post by: BrianDavion


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Check the tau flyers. They have a rule that says they can't assault and can only be assaulted by fly units. The drake doesn't have this. It isn't in the core rules either (that we've seen so far).


herlldrake has basicly become a MC


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 10:34:35


Post by: koooaei


My guess is that warp talon's weapons are not lightning claws. And instead probably something like rend 1. That's why they're cheaper than raptors that are also equipped with pistols, chainswords, nades and have access to all sorts of gear. Melta raptors are gona be great and a power weapon champ won't be sniped out. The death of challenges is one of the best things to happen to 8-th apart from vehicles turning to mc.

As for oblits, i'd like them to be assault 3 or a bit cheaper but they're not that bad as is. 3 wounds and deepstrike. 2+ and 5++ will allow them to occupy the midboard and never leave untill the enemy focuses them really hard. We don't know all the rules yet and it's too eary to cry about them being nerfed.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 11:43:48


Post by: Franarok


Yeah, but 3w on 8th are way far of being so effective as 3w on 7th.
Now lot of weapons will be able to blow an obliterator. A laser canon will obey them save several wounds at 5++

Also now because the lower range of their weapons they should use teleport.

In general I think that, sadly, havocs are better now. In particular since they can split fire, so you can use different weapons on the same unit


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 12:52:01


Post by: Demantiae


I don't mind the changes in principle to Oblits but GW are missing an opportunity here. Firstly they're extra-bulky (confirmed by the Land Raider rule on carrying capacity) so GW has confirmed they're the same size category as Centurions. So instead of continuing with this charade that speshul-marines get those and chaos don't why don't GW just admit that the Centurions that turned chaos during the heresy evolved into the Cult of Destruction? It's a gaping whole in 40k lore that needs filling. Give us new centurion sized oblit models already. And while we're at it why are they not T5 to match their size?

The random weapons are a little weird. A single roll would have been better - (1) Heavy 3 S7 AP -1 D 1 (2) Heavy 2 2 S8 AP -2 D 2 (3) Heavy 1 S9 AP -3 D3. It'd be nice to be able to choose your target properly rather than relying on pure chance to dictate what you can hurt. And with their short range they'd benefit from either having assault weapons rather than heavy or by having the ability to deep strike redeploy during the game. They also should have rending 1 on their shots to compensate for their loss of plasma and the overall chaos lack of assault cannons (which is still a joke for the chaos faction). These guys can make any weapon they like (or I guess in 8th terms are harnessing pure destruction itself) but they can't imitate a freakin assault cannon? come on GW.

Oblits now are being moved away from being Havocs+, which is fine, chaos have Havocs to do Havoc things. But that means the Oblits need to fill a new niche. Simply changing their weapons without defining a new role isn't going to cut it. What do they do now that other units won't do better? If they had rend 1, assault weapons and the ability to deep strike redeploy (full on Warp Spider teleport is too much) they'd be great as a heavy harassment unit or a bomb to drop behind enemy lines to mess gak up. As they stand they're an underwhelming and less flexible Havoc unit that will get eaten by a single predator or lascannon devastator squad in a single turn from across the board.

Looks like Oblits have been changed without any real thought into why they needed to be changed. Can anyone divine what role they're meant to play in an army now? Come on GW, just make them twisted corrupted Centurions already. We all know that's what they are after Cents were retconned into marines lists.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 13:15:09


Post by: MagicJuggler


Oblits are going to be Counts as Centurions for people playing Spikey Loyalists. Between the loss of their Powerfists, versatile weapon selection, and the ability to be taken in units of 1-3 (instead of 3-5), there really isn't anything to differentiate them other than an Invulnerable I guess.

Havocs were the cost-effective shooting option, Oblits were the "troubleshooter" option, and that role has been effectively invalidated. Deep-Strike? For a better fire arc maybe, but shooting is dictated entirely by the defender and armor facings are gone. To avoid an alphastrike? Sure, if it's an artillery alpha-strike, but DS Melta is effectively dead this edition, while any other short-range shooting can be bubblewrapped with extreme prejudice.

Honestly, I'm not seeing much reason to run Chaos as a few token Havocs with Lascannons, a Warptime Sorcerer and everything else spent in Zombies. Don't even bother fighting, but just plop on objectives and go "I win" due to having more models. Sounds a lot like 6th, minus the Heldrakes.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 14:06:17


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm. What are Land Raiders going to be good for?

7th ed: Move 12" T1, take a couple of Lascannon shots on re-rolled 6's or else pop smoke, T2, move 6", disembark shock troops effectively 5" due to inset of ramp and pretty much guarantee a charge, fire one Las shot on 3's/4's (depending on Daemonic) and one on 6's, then either sit there as a gun unit or do more ferrying

8th ed: Move 10" T1, blast away with four Las shots on 3's and also damage some Infantry because no way are you sacrificing that firepower just to roll a 1 for Advance and reduce BS3+ hit rate by 25%, T2, either disembark before moving due to no Assault Vehicle or else wait another turn to jump out - but by this point probably have taken 8W of damage and trundle along at 5" with no way to rapidly move away from Melta

A squad mounted in a LR seems to have a reduced threat range. Warptime and rerolls of charge dice look fairly necessary

Edit: wait, when you jump out of a LR you are put within 3" of its tracks and then move and also shoot, this is a bit better than I thought

Edit: speaking of transports, it looks like Havocs can take a Rhino and a squad of Cultists can deploy in it to go claim an objective


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 14:21:24


Post by: Roknar


Something that hasn't been mentioned about the drake is that it can now take marks and legion rules. We don't know what kind of effect that will have on the drake. Though I'm kinda scared that mark effects and legion rules only apply to auras and maybe the odd psychic power, making both essentially useless on any fast unit like the drake or maybe even bikes.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 14:28:24


Post by: mrhappyface


Yeah, I've been thinking of how odd it is that we no longer purchase marks of chaos but rather give them to a unit which makes me worried that all that a mark of chaos or a legion will allow you to do is to benefit from something like stratigems rather than get anything worth while like +1T, invul, etc.

Not sure whether I like this.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 14:34:25


Post by: lindsay40k


Hmm, we have access to Flyer Wings with our FW fleet, and also to Fortifications without taking a CAD. Also we can take defacto Allied Detachments to keep, say, the detachments of a World Eaters army with a couple of Death Guard holding units 'pure'.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 17:17:59


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


I like the command detachment.

I've always wanted to run nothing but GDs.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 17:31:09


Post by: SilverAlien


 mrhappyface wrote:
Yeah, I've been thinking of how odd it is that we no longer purchase marks of chaos but rather give them to a unit which makes me worried that all that a mark of chaos or a legion will allow you to do is to benefit from something like stratigems rather than get anything worth while like +1T, invul, etc.

Not sure whether I like this.


It's also entirely possible chaos lords (and other HQs potentially) might give different rules to units in range, depending on their own mark.

So a nurgle chaos lord might have a rule where nurgle (or legion) units in range reduce the strength of incoming attacks, or can rerolls saves.

I'm fairly convinced marks and legion tactic army wide rules are both out. Maybe you can spend CP to get those bonuses across your army, but I'd be surprised.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 17:37:58


Post by: Roknar


I'd also like to throw in a frown about how our apostles and warpsmiths are still footslogging -_-, yet the god mounts which also don't have a model have rules...


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 17:41:38


Post by: Groslon


You would think a warpsmith could have built a bike by now


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 17:55:44


Post by: Captyn_Bob


ahh, my jump pack dark apostle. Noooo.

Lol like I ever used that, I've got my Juggerlords, I'm chill.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 18:12:27


Post by: Dayve220


So managed a tester 8th game, matching up power levels.

7 1x Captain
-- 1x Boltstorm Gauntlet
-- 1x MC power sword

6 5x Intercessor
-- 5x Bolt Rifle
-- 5x Bolt Pistol
-- 5x Frag/Krak grenades

6 5x Intercessor
-- 5x Bolt Rifle
-- 5x Bolt Pistol
-- 5x Frag/Krak grenades

8 3x Inceptor
-- 6x Assault Bolters

12 5x Hellblaster
-- 5x Plasma Incinerator
-- 5x Bolt Pistol
-- 5x Frag/Krak grenades

39

9 1x Lord of Contagion
-- 1x Plaguereaper

7 5x Plague Marines
-- 5x Blight/Krak grenades
-- 4x Plague knife (1x Sword)
-- 2x Bolter
-- 2x Blight Launcher
-- 1x Power Fist
-- 1x Combi-Flamer

7 5x Plague Marines
-- 5x Blight/Krak grenades
-- 4x Plague knife (1x Sword)
-- 2x Bolter
-- 2x Blight Launcher
-- 1x Power Fist
-- 1x Combi-Plasma

10 1x Foetid Bloat-Drone
-- 2x Plaguespitter
-- 1x Plague probe

6 20x Poxwalkers
-- 20x Improvised weapon

39

The Plauge Marines died rather quickly to the Inceptors, I was expecting them to hold up a bit longer, those Inceptors pack a serious punch! Blight Launchers were quite effective at whittling down the Primaris and took out 3 Hellblasters.

The Lord of Contagion is a beast, if a little slow. He took alot of punishment and managed to take out the Primaris Captain, the Inceptors, 2 Hellblasters and 4 Intercessors by himself.

The Drone was unimpressive... doing little in combat and little with its flamers, it did however shrug off everything thrown at it.

The Plauges that reached combat didn't do great with only 1A each. The power Fist did bring down an Intercessor however.

The Poxwalkers were.... unimpressive. Quite fragile even with the 5+ FNP, Slow and a single weak attack, they managed to cause 1 Wound but were quickly dispatched by a combined charge of Primaris who all have 2 or more attacks base.



8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 18:36:13


Post by: Captyn_Bob


hmm not exactly inspiring. hopefully mark of Nurgle and detachment bonuses might even things up,



So the loyalists got the correct number of shots (4) on their knight Icarus cannon :-/


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 18:43:25


Post by: Binabik15


Sounds underwhelming on the Nurgle side. Too bad. Kinda expected, though. NuMarine have to be the bestest.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 18:56:51


Post by: mrhappyface


Although that report does sell the plague units pretty short, I am so happy that the Lord is a beast. Chaos has always been about (and the reason why a got into chaos) amazing characters filled to the brim with chaotic rewards that allow them to throw loyalists around like dolls.

I would trade all the legion rewards, chaos marks and cult units if it would be assured that my chaos Lord could rofl stomp any other character in the game just like the good old days.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:05:19


Post by: Ecdain


I'm just excited to make an army of mauler/forgefiends and helldrakes xD


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:17:10


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Ecdain wrote:
I'm just excited to make an army of mauler/forgefiends and helldrakes xD


Lead by a brass scorpion


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:17:44


Post by: SilverAlien


I think, in all honesty, is was the bloat drone holding that list back. Both from what you described and what id been assuming based on stats, seemed mediocre.

Pox walkers sounded even more disappointing that I expected.

Do you think 4 units of plague marines+the lord would've ended up doing better? If so, that actually bodes well for a DG army with a troop heavy list


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:21:49


Post by: mrhappyface


SilverAlien wrote:
Pox walkers sounded even more disappointing that I expected.

What exactly do people expect from poxwalkers? They are basically 7e plague zombies, they're not supposed to be power houses, they're supposed to be cheap troop choices that can sit on an objective and not move because 1. They are tougher than the equivilent cultist and 2. They are fearless. Do people really expect them to beat the nu-marines in combat?


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:36:34


Post by: SilverAlien


 mrhappyface wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Pox walkers sounded even more disappointing that I expected.

What exactly do people expect from poxwalkers? They are basically 7e plague zombies, they're not supposed to be power houses, they're supposed to be cheap troop choices that can sit on an objective and not move because 1. They are tougher than the equivilent cultist and 2. They are fearless. Do people really expect them to beat the nu-marines in combat?


I've never really liked troops as a tax/dedicated objective squatters, that's what attracted me to CSM (and admech as well). Admittedly it didn't really work well for CSM, but at least the cult units felt like they had the potential to be more.

From that angle, seeing one of the unique death guard units be basically just that was disappointing, and hearing that they do tend to not even manage to stay up in combat when they get there was expected but still sad.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:41:07


Post by: Motograter


Warhammer fest games were very different. Death guard put a beating on the new marines in most of the games.

Its really about the player this edition over the army. If you know what to do you'll be able to do it.

Obviously there will be a learning curve but the death guard are fine. Couple of starter sets, convert the spare characters and add multipart PM, new terminators and couple of other bits and the army will be on point


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:43:22


Post by: Galas


Zombies and Cultists are Zombies and Cultists. You can't expect anything from them besides diing in droves. Obviously that Poxwalkers can't do anything against a elite force as the primaris marines. Put them charging a big unit of Imperial Guard or other equivalent cheap infantry and then you'll see how they do something.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 19:48:38


Post by: Dayve220


I believe more Infantry would do better than the Drone. Partly because flamers don't do much to T4 W2 Sv3+ models.

The Poxwalkers did make a decent distraction to soak a little Bolt fire and could work well sitting on an objective (the Primaris were sadly sitting on the one random objective we had from the 'Only War' mission)

Seems like you now control an objective with bodies so they could be used to swamp locations. I think they went down quick mostly due to the A2 of the Primaris.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 20:59:18


Post by: whembly


So... Demonic Ritual is the new summoning.

It's not a psyhic power.

Interesting...


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 21:00:40


Post by: SeraphimXIX


Oh my goodness berserkers are BEASTS!

Also,I heard that Primaris Marines were getting stomped left and right at Warhammer fest.


8ed Chaos thread @ 2017/05/30 21:25:49


Post by: Dayve220


I think the fest games started closer than 24" allowing combat earlier + less shooting.