So from what I've read on here, apparently the new marines are exactly that - a new type of 'super' marine with a new genecode. Now considering current Marines begin the implant stage ideally at 10-12 years and finish it at around 18 years old, that would suggest it takes 6-8 years to create a marine before any of the rigorous training (that we must assume takes years to achieve super human status). So lets say 10 years (being generous) to have a fully trained combat ready marine.
Guilliman is however creating even more advanced versions, which one would assume would take just as long, if not longer to create. Even if they are vat grown that will still take a good while, then followed by years of training.
The thing is Guilliman needs them NOW. To top that off, GW are releasing them with 8th but have only advanced the story by a few months, maybe a year, through the Gathering storm series. So are the NuMarines going to suddenly appear out of nowhere, is Abaddon going to consolidate for a few years whilst Guilliman builds up his new forces so the NuMarines are ready for the setting... Or is there going to be some other explanation, such as how Corax was granted a way to speed up the process for normal Marines (look how that ended up - and there are still plenty of Alpha Legion around to do it again)?
Unless it's a process that is much closer to how the Primarchs were created. They were created with a lot of the knowledge of war craft already ingrained in their being. They just knew a lot of the shizzle. I think they were fed a lot of it whilst they were gestating in their tanks.
Not really a fan of this new idea myself as doesn't it make the old marines redundant in a way. Will have to wait for the fluff before I pass final judgement
the GS series may have advanced it maybe a year but we have no idea what 8th is gonna be, for all we know 8th starts off with "a century ago Cadia fell..." that said, you're assuming it would take that long, during the great crusade it was MUCH quicker to raise space marines. honestly I hope these new marines aren't quick grown in tanks. the space marines recruiting methods that resulted in chapters with differant cultures was a biiig part of what made space marines intreasting
My thoughts are this is something that has been going on for Millennia as Cawl and Guilliman seem to have been hatching this plan since after the Heresy. I'm expecting something using the Primarch technology to create clones or vat grown Marines with all the necessary knowledge.
I'm excited about it as it opens the door to how the story may move in the future and we may see a new Heresy and the Imperium fracturing.
They are gonna approach it like a bull in a china shop.
Meaning its gonna get hamfisted into the lore just so they can have SUPER MARINES! when all the lore already says, dont screw with human genetics especially the space marines. All in the name to sell more models.
My money is on it being the culmination of whatever naughty Inqusition-AdMech-Fabius Bile collaboration was going on during the 21st Founding, see the 3rd edition Cursed Founding Index Astartes article:
"Day 38: The laboratorium we discovered contained a plethora of ancient machines, and my heart leapt to see so much techno-arcana preserved in such an undamaged condition. But it was the centre of the laboratoria that demanded my most immediate attention. Connected by vast bundles of pulsing tubes and cables to the machines were six ceiling height incubation tanks. Three were empty, but the others contained amniotic fluid with an enormous human male floating within them. The physiology of these giants put me in mind of Space Marines, but these brutes were far larger than those members of the Adeptus Astartes whom I have laid eyes upon."
"I have performed similar examinations on members of the Adeptus Astartes before this and can say with utter certainty that these subjects are far superior to them in every way."
Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Thunder Warriors (or at least that's what I'm hoping).
They were already stronger, faster, tougher and larger than the Astartes at the cost of longevity and stability, so either Girlyman has accepted they won't last as long (which makes sense considering they're going to be thrown into the "darkest age") or has upgraded them to V2.
kestral wrote: Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Well the video proclaims: "Geneforged beyond the capabilities of their brethren. Armed and equipped with weapons befitting their stature as the truest heirs of the Primarch's legacies" which would to appear to clearly set them apart from existing marines fluffwise.
kestral wrote: Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Well the video proclaims: "Geneforged beyond the capabilities of their brethren. Armed and equipped with weapons befitting their stature as the truest heirs of the Primarch's legacies" which would to appear to clearly set them apart from existing marines fluffwise.
Couldalso be referring to their in modified humans? Since humans were once their brethren.
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kestral wrote: Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Also source on them being bigger then deathguard ?
kestral wrote: Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Because currently literally the entire space marine and chaos space marine miniatures ranges are basically cross-compatible, and you can mix/match parts between almost any of them. GW isn't going to invalidate and phase out two entire miniature lines just for "super marines".
kestral wrote: Do we know they aren't just going to declare "These are our new marine models". After all, are they going to be bigger than the death guard in the starter box?
Because currently literally the entire space marine and chaos space marine miniatures ranges are basically cross-compatible, and you can mix/match parts between almost any of them. GW isn't going to invalidate and phase out two entire miniature lines just for "super marines".
I really hope that's the case - both for everyone who has spent the money and also so we don't just have Marine releases non stop - it will be bad enough with the Nu marines and all their baggage, - special characters, vehicles, flyers, etc etc etc.
Their going to be included in the 'Starter Box Set', of course they are the new models, and there will be chapter specific upgrade kits for them I am sure.
BrianDavion wrote: the GS series may have advanced it maybe a year but we have no idea what 8th is gonna be, for all we know 8th starts off with "a century ago Cadia fell..." that said, you're assuming it would take that long, during the great crusade it was MUCH quicker to raise space marines. honestly I hope these new marines aren't quick grown in tanks. the space marines recruiting methods that resulted in chapters with differant cultures was a biiig part of what made space marines intreasting
This. I hope the creation methodology remains basically the same for the reasons stated. I see no reason why 8th could not happen years, or even decades after the Cadia mess.
BrianDavion wrote: the GS series may have advanced it maybe a year but we have no idea what 8th is gonna be, for all we know 8th starts off with "a century ago Cadia fell..." that said, you're assuming it would take that long, during the great crusade it was MUCH quicker to raise space marines. honestly I hope these new marines aren't quick grown in tanks. the space marines recruiting methods that resulted in chapters with differant cultures was a biiig part of what made space marines intreasting
This. I hope the creation methodology remains basically the same for the reasons stated. I see no reason why 8th could not happen years, or even decades after the Cadia mess.
I've often expressed the thought that we'll get a minor timeskip, nothing major (100 years for 40k is NOTHING) just eneugh to justify any other big changes GW wants to make. this would also explain why creed was pokeballed.
The idea that Marines take a long time to raise is bollocks invented by GW that doesn't make sense regarding just the sheer amount of Gene-Seed that Marines must have available by simple math or heresy recruitment speeds. It's clear the only thing standing in the way of massive amounts of marines is dogma/the plot.
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
Ginsu33 wrote: All my Marines will wear helmets, so not much of a difference to be excited about.
Female Guardsmen I can understand excitment, you can actually see a difference.
except if they're all in helmets you proably can't. the armor would pretty much hide any sense of gender on them. boob plates etc are complete and utter fiction,
Ginsu33 wrote: All my Marines will wear helmets, so not much of a difference to be excited about.
Female Guardsmen I can understand excitment, you can actually see a difference.
except if they're all in helmets you proably can't. the armor would pretty much hide any sense of gender on them. boob plates etc are complete and utter fiction,
You can, I've seen it done with the old Starship troopers miniatures line. Light Mobile Infantry had females in it, they had slim legs and arms compared to the males, and female faces (lips, checks and eyes being the give away that they were female) the detail wasn't GW level, but it was enough to tell they were women and it worked.
They didn't have any rubbish gear either, same body armour as the males, same uniforms, all helmets. (the below image has two women, one on the far right and the other far left.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
doesn't mean it can't be done, but yeah assum ing numarines automaticly means female marines is a bit of a leap of logic.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
I hope we get to the point where old-marines and female numarines have super babies.
All I know is that I wanted to make a start on a new Marine army for 8th, but now I'm holding off because I'm worried that my initial purchases will be obsolete.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but...... While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but...... While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.
Sure, they can also add in a bunch of male sororitas while they are at it. Because everything is better when you mix up the genders and remove any unique flavor imparted by being single sex!
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but...... While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.
It destroys all the knightly aspects Space Marines carried and doesn't make sense in-universe either so the lore is bad.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but...... While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.
It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.
The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.
Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.
Badablack wrote: The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.
Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.
they could even make it work for guardsmen. anyone whom sufficantly proves themselves becomes a "Indomatus marine"
Poly Ranger wrote: So from what I've read on here, apparently the new marines are exactly that - a new type of 'super' marine with a new genecode. Now considering current Marines begin the implant stage ideally at 10-12 years and finish it at around 18 years old, that would suggest it takes 6-8 years to create a marine before any of the rigorous training (that we must assume takes years to achieve super human status). So lets say 10 years (being generous) to have a fully trained combat ready marine.
Guilliman is however creating even more advanced versions, which one would assume would take just as long, if not longer to create. Even if they are vat grown that will still take a good while, then followed by years of training.
The thing is Guilliman needs them NOW. To top that off, GW are releasing them with 8th but have only advanced the story by a few months, maybe a year, through the Gathering storm series. So are the NuMarines going to suddenly appear out of nowhere, is Abaddon going to consolidate for a few years whilst Guilliman builds up his new forces so the NuMarines are ready for the setting... Or is there going to be some other explanation, such as how Corax was granted a way to speed up the process for normal Marines (look how that ended up - and there are still plenty of Alpha Legion around to do it again)?
Scout Training occur during the implantation process. A Space Marine Scout is one who has all other special organ except the Black Carapace. When they receive it, they become full fledge Space Marines. They are around 18 years old at that point. Yes, the Imperium can count amongst its heroes and legends child soldiers. It would take only a two or three years to produce a New Marine provided you have a teenager candidate. The decades of training before becoming a Space Marines who are centuries old is hyberbolic. Only a rare few get to see war for centuries, most die well before that.
Unusual Suspect wrote: It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.
Looks like your not far off the mark about the response unfortunately.
It will upset a lot of their customers (justified or not - personal opinion is not, but whatever). Worse, if the backlash is sufficiently virulent (and let's be honest, there's a 95% chance it would be epic in its explosiveness), it would shed some extensive light, culturally and socially, on what would appear from the outside to be some extremely entrenched misogyny within the WH40k community (justified or not - personal opinion is that would be true for some, but not all), which would be bad for WH40k's reputation as a game and hit GW's pocketbooks hard.
That's some solid insight there. Agreed on all fronts.
New Dreadnaught technology.
By *This is a massive stretch on a lot of levels* a combination of accumulated Necron and remaining Dreadnought technology worthy battle brothers who are literally only surviving organs are being put back in the fighting in cybernetic bodies with living metal armour.
Only little more human than the undead xenos filth Necrons these NuMarines are despised as heretech rather than venerated like their Dreadnaught counterparts. As worthy Ultramarine minds the NuMarines are eager to prove themselves as powerful and true weapons of the Imperium.
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.
Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.
With the talk in the trailer of restoring chapters I don't think they will be existing Marines with an upgrade, at least not the regular troopers. Having an officer core or advisers drawn from existing Astartes forces(boosted or not) would be interesting.
Karhedron wrote: In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.
Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.
Alternatively, it's possible that since the G is himself the biotemplate of the smurfs, he can just rip bits out of himself to *restore* the geneseed purity and effectiveness of smurfs the galaxy over. If geneseed decay, which is conveniently handwaved away as plot dictates can occurr even to the ultrasmurfs with their famous geno-stability, then rebooting/updating the process from the original could justify physiological changes on hardened veterans in a short while.
Which means the smurfs get to be special until the other primarchs show up. Again.
Haven't kept up with all the new stuff, but if girlyman does the "supermarine thing" - couldnt it be that the "supermarines" will be distributed to the chapters and act as commanders? Basically so that every chapter or even company can have their own "little primarch" on the battlefield?
Keep wrote: Haven't kept up with all the new stuff, but if girlyman does the "supermarine thing" - couldnt it be that the "supermarines" will be distributed to the chapters and act as commanders? Basically so that every chapter or even company can have their own "little primarch" on the battlefield?
I hope not, that would be a regression to the "Ultramarines are the best at everything" stuff in the worst possible way. It would imply that the person most suited to command, say, the Salamanders in combat is an Ultramarine (because they're made from Guilliman) and not a Salamander. Likewise for other chapters.
Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
SolidOakie wrote: Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?
SolidOakie wrote: Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
I think the suspicion is that it's misogyny on the behalf of the players not the fluff that is the problem. Looking at nerd culture over the past few years it's a something I'd be very weary of too. Last thing they need is Twitter storms and their fans sending disgusting threats etc. Sad really.
SolidOakie wrote: Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?
SolidOakie wrote: Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?
No, because they aren't minor differences. Take someone like Rhonda Rousey. She is a dangerous woman, and could take any man on this board. She has trained to fight her entire life, and if she wanted to literally kill us, she could. But take a male version of her, someone with her genetics, her training, her talent, her entire history. Basically a male duplicate of her. He would defeat her. There's male mma and female mma for a reason. There's the WNBA and the NBA for a reason. There are separate events for every Olympics competition for a reason. When the Marine Corps standardised physical fitness requirements for men and women in combat roles, 6 out of 7 women failed the test. If you upgrade a woman by 1000 percent, and upgrade a man by 1000 percent, who would win? If men compete physically with women, men outperform them. This isn't debatable. Plus take into account the Imperium recruiting suitable initiates and spending years of resources, time and energy on them. Why would you choose initiates that start out disadvantaged? There is no logical reason to pick say 1000 women from Nocturne to turn into space marines, when the likelihood of them falling out/dying is greater than their male counterparts. There are plenty of noble roles for females in the 40k universe. Deciding to make female space marines to reflect bizarre "men and women aren't different in any way" social trends would be a travesty to the universe. In the 41st millennium, might makes right. Today, in the second millennium, being a victim, being oppressed, being disadvantaged, being in any sort of minority group makes right. If we injected today's social norms and standards into the 41st millennium, the entire saga shifts into something else entirely. It wouldn't be 40k anymore. I for one escape into Warhammer to avoid the silliness of today. It's above today's hassles and pettiness. Its canon should be protected.
From a practical standpoint - GW is all about (okay, partially about) making products there has been a demand for recently. Big marines are just GW making "true scale" marines to scratch the market itch, in my opinion. They will have some fluff to explain using them alongside traditional marines, likely using custodes gene seed or something like it. But, I bet they fully anticipate true scale enthusiasts using them as normal marines, and may make them super-marines to facilitate that kind of movie-marine game play.
Badablack wrote: The nu-marines may not be vat-grown from humans though. They could be Space Marines put into the pods and upgraded to be tougher and stronger. It would explain why they'd be battle ready the moment they step out.
Heck it could be an alternate path for mortally wounded space marines that have enough pieces left that dreadnoughts aren't the only option, and work with the holy warrior fluff. Die a heroic death and you ascend to your fathers side as a true angel of vengeance to return in a new form to smite the foes of Man. I'd dig it.
Now that's a good way to include them. Knowing GW though, they're going to make it super lame and induce a lot of fan rage.
And for all the people who complain about the lack of female space marines, I wonder how tiring it is trying to jump on the bandwagon. It's tiring as hell reading complaints about trying to include, what people SHOULD know, is a terrible idea.
SolidOakie wrote: Having male-only space marines isn't misogynic, it's pragmatic. Misogyny by definition is a dislike and/or contempt for women. Being exclusive doesn't mean you hold malice towards the opposite gender. It would be a shame to throw 30 years of fluff in the trash to appease those who haven't bothered to read it. Re-writing "history" to fit current societal trends is a huge disservice to the saga. This isn't Warhammer 2k. It's Warhammer 40k, and in the future the setting is different. End stop.
I am feeling much trepidation about the nu-marines myself. Even the Deliverence Lost story arc gave me heebie-jeebies.I hope they aren't hoisted on us under the guise of an optional unit but *wink wink* "Your army would be way cooler if you replaced all you space marines with these new ones." I took a lot of time with mine, updating them all with Forgeworld sets, and if they suddenly look dated and squatty on the tabletop my butthurt meter will be red-lined.
So what about women makes them unfit to be marines?
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
And imperial genetic engineering-that produces someone who punches as hard as a tank explodes, can spit acid, and run for literal days on end and still be battle ready-can't account for the minor differences between men and women?
No, because they aren't minor differences. Take someone like Rhonda Rousey. She is a dangerous woman, and could take any man on this board. She has trained to fight her entire life, and if she wanted to literally kill us, she could. But take a male version of her, someone with her genetics, her training, her talent, her entire history. Basically a male duplicate of her. He would defeat her. There's male mma and female mma for a reason. There's the WNBA and the NBA for a reason. There are separate events for every Olympics competition for a reason. When the Marine Corps standardised physical fitness requirements for men and women in combat roles, 6 out of 7 women failed the test. If you upgrade a woman by 1000 percent, and upgrade a man by 1000 percent, who would win? If men compete physically with women, men outperform them. This isn't debatable. Plus take into account the Imperium recruiting suitable initiates and spending years of resources, time and energy on them. Why would you choose initiates that start out disadvantaged? There is no logical reason to pick say 1000 women from Nocturne to turn into space marines, when the likelihood of them falling out/dying is greater than their male counterparts. There are plenty of noble roles for females in the 40k universe. Deciding to make female space marines to reflect bizarre "men and women aren't different in any way" social trends would be a travesty to the universe. In the 41st millennium, might makes right. Today, in the second millennium, being a victim, being oppressed, being disadvantaged, being in any sort of minority group makes right. If we injected today's social norms and standards into the 41st millennium, the entire saga shifts into something else entirely. It wouldn't be 40k anymore. I for one escape into Warhammer to avoid the silliness of today. It's above today's hassles and pettiness. Its canon should be protected.
In terms of *as a species* male and female humans muscle mass is not drastically different. In terms of outliers your have around 1/3 of the female population stronger than the average male and about 1/3rd of the male population weaker than the average female (or something along those lines, it's been a while since I studied it, the point is the crossover is larger than most people believe).
Space marines simply aren't the strongest humanity has to offer. I'm sure many of them are simply those who have survived recruitment rituals, tests and transplant processes. It's been said time and time again, that Space Marines being male has nothing to do with physical strength. It's about the whole gene seed and implant processes to be incompatible with females. Aka it simply will not work. Yes many people will get that far through some degree of strength, but strength of spirit and mind is also required in the 41st millennium to become a space marine.
Now I'm sure if the Imperium had manpower issues then they possible may try to develop ways to create female space marines, but we all know it does not have manpower issues in the slightest. I partially expect Guilliman makin nu marines is simply a way to speed up or mass make new space marines. The main problem with the chapter system is they are so small making new marines is rather inefficient .
The Imperium of Man, where people accept that we can implant organs into space marines that let them eat people to gain their memories but can't accept that technology exists that can turn women into giant genetically modified super warriors.
Space Marine recruits, before implementation, simply cannot be the 'strongest' human specimens. That makes no sense since they all grow up on worlds very inimical to human life with, no doubt, poor diets.
Remember living in a harsh enviroment does not automatically, at all, translate into being physically superior to other humans. Indeed the advent of proper diet and other features are more important. Living in an extreme enviroment does not make you stronger, usually, than people living in a comfortable area with access to advanced medical technology, good diet and exercise routines and machinary.
And if we're talking about the implementation process doing 90% of the work then really it should all just come down to that implementation.
Going back to the original post, it looks like the answer has arrived. The new Primaris Marines have been slowly cooking on Mars for the last 9000 years under the tender care of Belisarius Cawl. Looks like Guilliman has founded new Chapters composed entirely of these guys but has also sent out some to reinforce existing Chapters.
Most interestingly, they use the Geneseed of their appropriate Primarch meaning BA and SW Primaris Marines have the geneseed of Sanguinius and Russ respectively
Aww man. From the email newsletter: 'each Primaris Space Marine is the pinnacle of 10,000 years of science, experimentation, and distilled military knowledge.'
Have they even read the background of 40k?
10,000 years of science? What is this? Star Trek? It's been 10,000 years of inexorable scientific and technological decay as the principles of scientific reasoning have been replaced with religious dogma and fanaticism.
Ah well. At least it'll be easier to make Truescale Marines now.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Aww man. From the email newsletter: 'each Primaris Space Marine is the pinnacle of 10,000 years of science, experimentation, and distilled military knowledge.'
Have they even read the background of 40k?
10,000 years of science? What is this? Star Trek? It's been 10,000 years of inexorable scientific and technological decay as the principles of scientific reasoning have been replaced with religious dogma and fanaticism.
I rolled my eyes out of my socket when I read that specific bit.
Oh absolutely. It was always going to be tricky to get NuMarines in without them being too noblebright, but that comment just displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what situation the 40k universe is in.
Here's hoping that these guys turn out exactly like the last time the Imperium tried to 'improve' Space Marines *cough* cursed founding *cough*.
I suspect it will take a significant amount of headcanon-ing to iron out the noblebright in these guys and actually make them fell like they fit in 40k. Still, I've headcanon-ed worse
Gashrog wrote: My money is on it being the culmination of whatever naughty Inqusition-AdMech-Fabius Bile collaboration was going on during the 21st Founding, see the 3rd edition Cursed Founding Index Astartes article:
"Day 38: The laboratorium we discovered contained a plethora of ancient machines, and my heart leapt to see so much techno-arcana preserved in such an undamaged condition. But it was the centre of the laboratoria that demanded my most immediate attention. Connected by vast bundles of pulsing tubes and cables to the machines were six ceiling height incubation tanks. Three were empty, but the others contained amniotic fluid with an enormous human male floating within them. The physiology of these giants put me in mind of Space Marines, but these brutes were far larger than those members of the Adeptus Astartes whom I have laid eyes upon."
"I have performed similar examinations on members of the Adeptus Astartes before this and can say with utter certainty that these subjects are far superior to them in every way."
Karhedron wrote: In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.
Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.
Between these two examples, and the Emperor's own efforts with the Thunder Warriors, I could easily imagine these new Primaris Marines having similar narrative themes: larger, bred exclusively for war, and subject to mental and emotional issues due to their lack of human interaction early in life.
If the Primaris Marines actually are GROWN in a tube, then they will not have any actual human experience; they will not have known a true childhood. To me, that is the crux of what can happen to them from a thematic perspective. Every current Space Marine would have some knowledge and memories of their childhood, whatever condition it would be, they still had one. By the Primaris Marines not having early interactions with humans, that could cause them to have an ill-affected psyche and cause long term problems to their emotional and psychological health. Unless they are put in the tubes upon recruitment into the Astartes, in which case this entire paragraph is rendered useless.
I get the strong feeling that the Primaris Marines are going to be tied into the Thunder Warriors. I mean, the word "primaris" is related to "prime" and "primary", which means first, one, start, beginning, or early. After the Primarchs (there's that word again!) the Thunder Warriors were used to unify Terra, but were put down before any major galactic conquest due to their unstable psychology (right? Am I remembering this all right?). They were superior in physical might to the Space Marines of the Astartes, but their mental capabilities made them unsuited for conquering and unifying the galaxy. Space Marines are not just super-soldiers, but they are also supposed to be super-craftsmen, super-builders, and super-leaders, which is why we see the Primarchs and Chapters/Legions having traits other than just "super-soldier killing machines". By my recollections, Space Marines were also intended by the Emperor to help lead humanity and set an example, giving them purpose in times of piece (should that ever be reached!). Thunder Warriors were basically killing brutes, and not typically capable for anything beyond total war. By making the Primaris Marines similar to the Thunder Warriors, that allows for potential for tragedy for Guilliman as well to repeat something that his father did, but possibly without the knowledge of what the Primaris Marines will possibly become - wild berserkers who could become a threat to their allies.
Also, considering that the setting for 40K is influenced by the Classical period, in particular the Roman Empire, I could see the current advancements in the fluff to be a recreation of those ancient events. The big Warp rift across the galaxy seems to me a recreation of the splitting of Rome into the East and West Roman Empires, which resulted in all new wars, conflict, and internal politics and fighting that could provide plenty of opportunities for power struggles and civil wars.
Will GW handle any of the new material this way? No clue. But it could be really cool if they did.
Yeah that's going to be my headcanon if they don't do it themselves.
There is nothing new, technology-wise in tye 40k universe. Cawl's 'Primaris Marines' are little more than a resurrection of a flawed and volatile ancient technology for creating powerful killing machines, disguised as a new type of Astartes. How long before these new warriors start to show...interesting...symptoms?
Throw into that mix your idea that they're not just post-human, they were never human in the first place and you might actually get some interesting nuance to them. Beyond the glorious Mary-Sue-Marines they seem to be from what limited info we have now.
I don't actually mean to beat up on the fluff writers on this actually. It must be really hard writing something that appeals to both people who want a bit of (IMHO) unrealistic good-guy noblebright, and people like me who cherish the gritty terribleness of 40k. I must admit, they did a better job than i'd expected with the Ynnari idea (although still not quite to my liking). I'm patiently awaiting more fluff i can twist to suit my vision of what the 40k universe should be
Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.
So possibly a tangent, but given the prominence of the death guard in the trailers, perhaps some of the numarines are going to recieve some of papa nurgled love? Chaos needs some truescale models too. And there's your grimdark if half of the tube marines get infected from the outset.
also it sounds like Cawl's been around since the heresy, tinkering and building, just because gulliman wasn't around, he wasn't beurcraticly able to release his new toys. and THAT sounds very like 40k. having access to weapons and genetics technology that could change the course of the wasr, unable to be released due to berucratic BS
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point_blank wrote: So possibly a tangent, but given the prominence of the death guard in the trailers, perhaps some of the numarines are going to recieve some of papa nurgled love? Chaos needs some truescale models too. And there's your grimdark if half of the tube marines get infected from the outset.
it's also possiable that with these new marines GW is gonna feel fine to pump certain chaos marines up on chaos juice to new levels of power. I mean let's look at the intercessor squad carefully. ignoring weapons options, and looking at the core stats that would apply across all Primarius Marines, you have an additional wound granted, and an additional attack (Primaris assault squads could be fun) as well as SLIGHTLY superior kit,
this would be fairly answerable by chaos. and I expect death guard to all have 2 wounds.
Wyzilla wrote: Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.
Its like that.
Just because some advanced weapons cannot be made on mass. Say it might take a atrisan a year to make a jet bike. But in same time make 25 regular marine bikes.
Deamnd is too high.
Like you could maybe make storm birds, and Spartans, and marstadons bit demands so high, materal and time is not in excess so you produce what is the best option to supply both quantity and quality not just a 10th total of the regular gear in amazing kit. it only meets a fraction of demand for new war machines.
They can make limited termi suits, some chapters can make limited mk4 but total demand means that most marks are made in mk7 as can be churned out alot quicker.
Wyzilla wrote: Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.
Nah i don't buy that at all. The Imperium's a Cargo Cult worshipping the technological and scientific accomplishments of their distant ancestors, stifling invention and free thought due to entrenched dogma and fear of repeating the mistakes that caused their ancestors to fall from grace.
I have a much easier time buying that than 'they could give Marines Volkite Chargers...but they don't because it's cheaper to make Bolters'.
By all means, if that's the interpretation you prefer then you're welcome to it. I just prefer the Ad Mech to be genuinely clever people scrabbling around in the ashes of their civilisation desperately attempting to piece together what little information they can glean from fractured and often daemonically possessed records, rather than bean-counters sitting on vaults of treasure.
Wyzilla wrote: Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.
Nah i don't buy that at all. The Imperium's a Cargo Cult worshipping the technological and scientific accomplishments of their distant ancestors,
Because Machine Spirits and Weapon Spirits are real and they must be pleased or else they can quite literally cease working. Titans alone stand as an excellent example, as their artificial intelligence/warp spirit is able to preserve the consciousness of the Princeps who have piloted it, allowing them to communicate in person with the current pilot via neural links. Weapons such as swords can gain a presence within the warp until they have a mind of their own, and commune with the user. These things are not worshiped because it's a cargo cult, they're worshiped because they can simply refuse to function if not given the proper treatment.
stifling invention and free thought due to entrenched dogma and fear of repeating the mistakes that caused their ancestors to fall from grace.
Except there's still plenty of invention. It isn't stifled, it's a lengthy process because any invention has to be vetted to ensure it doesn't lead to a massive warp incursion followed by everybody dying to Daemonic assault. There has been plenty of technological advances over the thirty-first millennium in the time since from changes to naval doctrine (the Imperium creating smaller and faster ships instead of outdated lumbering behemoths), improvements to power armor, and the mass production of planet-sized star forts.
I have a much easier time buying that than 'they could give Marines Volkite Chargers...but they don't because it's cheaper to make Bolters'.
Which makes it clear you don't know much about logistics. In the modern age we are using incredibly old firearm designs which have advanced little since the 70's, with the AR-15 and AK platforms being slightly improved upon because it's easier to keep the parts simple. Multiple guns have been made in the real world that are utterly superior to the common rifles used by America or Russia- they never see the light of day because of the expense of production and how you would have to change every single part of your chain of production to refit the military. What's best isn't what is made, it's what's the easiest thing to produce that gets used. This is 100% realistic and even a part of real life.
By all means, if that's the interpretation you prefer then you're welcome to it. I just prefer the Ad Mech to be genuinely clever people scrabbling around in the ashes of their civilisation desperately attempting to piece together what little information they can glean from fractured and often daemonically possessed records, rather than bean-counters sitting on vaults of treasure.
This isn't interpretation, this is what is directly canon and constantly referenced. And they are sitting on vaults of treasure, or did you completely miss how the Admech decided to light the entire Damocles Gulf on fire in an experiment after the second Damocles War went poorly?
The idea of the Imperium being a decaying edifice with zero advancement and everything falling apart is a meme that has spread by hearsay. It only really applied to 3rd edition, and possibly 4th.
Perhaps I enjoyed the background more in 3rd or 4th when it was more Cargo Culty, and all of these things about Machine Spirits were suggested and not really explained whether they were true or not, leading you to believe that they could be real or they might not be. Before we ended up with a gradual explaining of all the little murky details until there's no real mystery left.
Different strokes I suppose
The reason I picked Marines and Volkite Chargers specifically is because the logistics example simply does not hold water in that case. There's what, 1.000,000 loyalist Marines total in the galaxy according to official figures? In terms of outfitting and equipping them in real terms that's a pitifully small amount in a galaxy of billions upon billions of Guardsmen alone. Logistically, they could probably equip each Marine with whatever the hell they liked and it wouldn't put a dent in the manufacturing capabilities of the Imperium. It wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Two options there. Either there are far, far more Marines in the galaxy than the official numbers (in which I'd agree with you), or it's because the Ad Mech are suspicious of change in the extreme, to the point that they've been equipping their soldiers in largely the same way for the last 10,000 years.
The idea of the Imperium being a decaying edifice with zero advancement is one of the founding pillars of the 40k universe since Rogue Trader, and has been steadily eroded throughout the years by people needing to sell the latest neat kit beyond 'oh yeah, they found an STC for this one too'.
Of course, that is just my opinion and you're free to completely ignore it of course I'm not even that bitter about the gradual feeling that 40k is selling out its unique feel to chase sales as it drives some truly beautiful kits that I can chop up and make neat little INQ28 gribblies that better fit the grimdarkness I feel gives 40k it's flavour.
I guess I just despair slightly over the continual noble-brighting of 40k. I mean come on, Eldar teaming up with Black Templars to resurrect the Primarch of the Ultramarines for the good of the universe....
Grumble grumble get off my lawn probably getting a little off-topic now anyways
Girlyman: 'Oh btw guys I secretly stole geneseeds from everyone and had this Mechanium duder play with them, So here are some new bigger duders that have kewler bolters than you, that may well have the same flaw as the rest of your mob.. for flavor'
BrianDavion wrote: technicly he didn't steal it. the geneseed tithes where always intended to be used in this manner. I mean Gulliman's the guy whom created that rule.
No but he did Lie..
Hey guys, we should totally give some geneseeds to mars so they can lock them away and safeguard them just in case the worse happens.
While the whole time actually has his old mate playing around with them....
@Wyzilla: Except the Martians literally killed a guy who knew how to make a perpetual motion machine and lost access as to how to make that tech now.
Look criticising that the Imperium's technological stagnancy is overblown is fine, but acting as if it doesn't exist at all is silly. GW themselves repeat, ad nauseam, that in canon the Imperium suffers from technological stagnancy a great deal, this is a commonly repeated adage in books, acting as if it doesn't exist at all paints too rosy a picture.
Anemone wrote: @Wyzilla: Except the Martians literally killed a guy who knew how to make a perpetual motion machine and lost access as to how to make that tech now.
Look criticising that the Imperium's technological stagnancy is overblown is fine, but acting as if it doesn't exist at all is silly. GW themselves repeat, ad nauseam, that in canon the Imperium suffers from technological stagnancy a great deal, this is a commonly repeated adage in books, acting as if it doesn't exist at all paints too rosy a picture.
The Admech has perpetual motion machines en masse. They're those "new" walkers.
And there is a difference between what GW says in sweeping stylized statements that act as openings to books and what is actually demonstrated. Those sweeping statements seem to always come up as grossly false.
Just think of the poor scout companies now. They were Warriors on their home planet as children, recruited at adolescence, transformed through rigorous training and painful implantation. Only through surviving dangerous combat missions, all without wearing a helmet (even the scout bikers? Really?) are you finally allowed to don power armor and call yourself Brother...
Then Johnny test tube comes along bigger, badder, and better equipped.
I dislike the look rather than the idea; the Intercessor looks like a converted Stormcast.
The fluff is... alright.
Personally I put forward the idea that Cawl is jealous enough to not tell people about his NuMarine pet project, just in case the Fabricator-General or some such takes credit for it and Roboute is the only one powerful enough to terrify him into revealing it
They'll eventually replace all the current marine kits with nuMarines, probably a few kits every few months. The revised Terminator models ought to be interesting when they appear - what will they be, Dreadnought sized?
The big question will be if the starter set contains ONLY nuMarines or a mix of regular and nuMarines. My suspicion is the former, not the latter, or it'd make replacing the kits more difficult.
d-usa wrote: The Imperium of Man, where people accept that we can implant organs into space marines that let them eat people to gain their memories but can't accept that technology exists that can turn women into giant genetically modified super warriors.
Exalted for brevity.
Not to mention power armor. The strength of a forklift driver doesn't matter when the machine can do all the work.
The thing got me on board with fluff was the reply from GW on Facebook which said that Cawl has been messing around with the 5% of geneseed that each chapter sends to Terra for purity testing. It means that Cawl can have made nu blood angels and nu dark angels in secret who may not be welcomed.with open arms by their chapters.
I am also expecting some kind of counterbalancing flaw like the thunder warriors or the stormcast have.
After the bright shining primarch they follow is permanently interred in his suit, feels constant pain and hates everything the imperium has become.
It will be interesting to see where things go.
As for the 10,000 years of progress, they have made marines who a little bit bigger and have a slightly better boltgun. I would hardly call that spectacular progress.
BrianDavion wrote: technicly he didn't steal it. the geneseed tithes where always intended to be used in this manner. I mean Gulliman's the guy whom created that rule.
No but he did Lie..
Hey guys, we should totally give some geneseeds to mars so they can lock them away and safeguard them just in case the worse happens.
While the whole time actually has his old mate playing around with them....
except playing around with and tinkering with the geneseed for new space marine foundings is hardly a new thing. it's been happening for millineia. no one objected to the last space Marine foundings. and that is EXACTLY what this is. I think we can start refering to the 27th founding. in M 41.999
Ouze wrote: I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.
There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.
I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but...... While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.
Sure, they can also add in a bunch of male sororitas while they are at it. Because everything is better when you mix up the genders and remove any unique flavor imparted by being single sex!
Sororitas aren't male though, that goes against their canon. Making female oldmarines would be against canon and I wouldn't like that, but there's no canon issues with female numarines.
As for the pragmatic reasons against them, they just seem silly. There's differences between normal men and woman, but no reason this would apply to super-soldiers. By the time you're doing such the extensive work that's being done to the Numarines, briding that gap means nothing. Plus, by allowing women you're doubling the potential recruit force you have.
There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.
But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.
But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.
There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.
But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.
But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.
this is doubly true when presumably certain genetic traits are required to become a marine take both genders in and you'll likely breed those traits out of the population.
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
Thats irrelevant. These are mutated creations of science. Not humans. What humans are means nothing to what the marines/numarines are. They are literally different down the genetic level.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does this mean all the old vehicles are invalidated? I imagine so.
This appears to be GWs ways of attempting to invalidate the entire marine line. Whatever fluff they use will be...meh.
Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.
Thats irrelevant. These are mutated creations of science. Not humans. What humans are means nothing to what the marines/numarines are. They are literally different down the genetic level.
This. The 'no female Space Marines' was utterly tenuous as it was. When you're moving to purely test-tube warriors there is literally nothing stopping them fluff-wise unless you want to magic up another arbitrary restriction.
This appears to be GWs ways of attempting to invalidate the entire marine line. Whatever fluff they use will be...meh.
Don't much care for the invalidation of the Marine models. Truescale Marines are overdue anyway.
The fluff however is tragic. The Space Marines posthuman warrior-monk style thing is pretty cool and nicely grimdark. These numaries are way too noblebright. Honestly, they feel more noblebright than Tau at this point which is just wrong.
Grumble grumble 'in the noblebrightness of the far future' grumble grumble
Well...they could (or you could in your personal fluff) dial the way back machine to RT days and turn the (NU) Marines into either almost mindless killing machines (how I always still thought of marines as) or entire legions of ANGRY marines. :-)
Make them, not human, not knights of the future, but bloodless killing machines or all incarnations of World Eaters.
BUT....GW won't do that. It is targeted to the preteen boy market after all.
BUT....GW won't do that. It is targeted to the preteen boy market after all.
Haha, this
I do wonder how much of their buying public are early teens. I'd say there's probably more in number, but grumpy older gits like myself (26! shock horror) probably have more individual purchasing power...
I really do like your idea that they're sort of...not human. That's definitely got legs to it
Lets say that they're portrayed by the Imperium to be these glorious knights in shining armour come to save the Imperium where even the Space Marines can't, but in every interaction they have with people they're just slightly...off. Like they have no frame of reference for even the slightest bit of humanity. They give even the hardened people of the Imperium the heebie jeebies because they seem less like a post-human warrior and more like something else walking around in the body of a person. Look into their eyes and there is nothing human staring back. How long until we have another situation like the Men of Iron where they decide they're better off without these limp bags of mostly water they're being forced to fight for?
Yeah, that I could live with
Not going to be the case though, because nuance and tension tends to fly straight by the target demographic
Exactly. The original fluff had them as mind swiped ex prisoners. They had one bit of fluff monitoring the communication of a marine to his unit it was akin to:
*(human) village sighted.
*moving on village.
*targets (villagers) acquired.
*targets eliminated (village wiped out).
*Moving to next objective.
There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.
But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.
But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.
this is doubly true when presumably certain genetic traits are required to become a marine take both genders in and you'll likely breed those traits out of the population.
When taking into account the sheer population size of the Imperium, taking a few woman out of the pool wouldn't have much effect, and it's not like the Imperium is lacking in pure population. Space Marine Aspirants tend to be chosen from the toughest warriors, a pool that would definitely be increased by allowing women to join. The Imperium's not lacking raw numbers as we can see from the vastly overpopulated hive worlds, but it could definitely use a boost in potential psychopathic warriors to recruit from.
As for breeding out the required genes, if you only need one parent to have the genes to pass them on, you'd be far better taking women than men. A woman could only have a single child every nine months, a very happy man could have far, far more. Sure, it might be that only women can pass it on, but as that's never been even slightly alluded to in fluff that's just seem like a strange way to try block women out needlessly.
In regards to test tube babies, as many have said it's be a far more interesting idea than a potential "Just like Oldmarines but better!" approach. Creatures that were never once human would break the already thin connection Space Marines have to humanity, and could raise a lot of interesting ethical questions. Honestly, I'd prefer these NuMarines to be a bunch of psychotic, asexual grunts created entirely to fight and die without ever once knowing what it was to be human. Otherwise, it's simply a thing of "We had these badass super-soldiers, and now we have SUPER badass super-soldiers!"
In regards to test tube babies, as many have said it's be a far more interesting idea than a potential "Just like Oldmarines but better!" approach. Creatures that were never once human would break the already thin connection Space Marines have to humanity, and could raise a lot of interesting ethical questions. Honestly, I'd prefer these NuMarines to be a bunch of psychotic, asexual grunts created entirely to fight and die without ever once knowing what it was to be human. Otherwise, it's simply a thing of "We had these badass super-soldiers, and now we have SUPER badass super-soldiers!"
Yeah absolutely there's definite potential that they seem to be quite neatly skirting around. Make them sinister. Something that you could absolutely see evolving into a Men of Iron-style threat as they steadily realise just how not-human they are something that hints at a future where Oldmarines might end up hunted and hounded by their inhuman replacements (as the Thunder Warriors were before them).
Just a little hint that the noblebright sheen might only be skin-deep
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apologies for the double-post, but I'd say less psychotic like the World Eaters. More cold. Calculating. Inhuman.
Actually, there's a brilliant bit from a game called Banner Saga that's coming to mind as a taster of what I'm thinking. Spoilered as it's a plot point:
Spoiler:
In Banner Saga there's regular humans, and their allies called the Varl who are a race of giants. Both are at war with these inhuman-looking stone people called the Dredge. One of the key points about the Varl is that they're unable to reproduce. Each one was crafted individually by their god, who is now dead.
There's one of your main characters, a really relatable guy called Iver. Saviour of the vulnerable, constantly fighting your side. Just an all round excellent guy. However, you find out that in his past when he's fought the Dredge he killed a mighty Dredge hero. The way he killed this hero (who was female btw), was that he stumbled upon her in a forest clearing, threw his axe at her but the wind caught it and it struck her child, killing it. He simply couldn't understand why she wouldn't fight back. Why she was just slumped helplessly to her knees in grief. Why she just let him walk up to her and decapitate her.
Because the Varl can't have children, they have no concept of why people would feel grief if you killed their child. They have no possible way of empathising, no way of understanding what that particular part of humanity is like.
Now, apply that to the Numarines who aren't human in the slightest, and you might be getting somewhere
maybe, the problem is that with purely vat born marines, there is less room for individual chapters to have their own cultures etc. apparently per the live stream, the process allows for standard Marines to be upgraded, Primaris Marines to be created via the tradtional methods. or Primaris marines to be grown in a Vat. my GUT feeling is most eistablished chapters will create Marines normally, and eaither upgrade to Primairs during creation, or use Primiarus as a special upgrade for their veterns. new chapters may not care and simply go with the vat born approuch if it's more efficant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormonu wrote: Does anyone feel that the nuMarines were heavily influenced by the Spartan program of HALO?
I get that sort of vibe and the whole nuMarine just feels off - in the hopebright sort of feel mentioned earlier.
not really. the SPARTAN program has more in common with the standard Marine fluff, children taken into the program, trained from childhood to be soldiers, subjected to genetic enhancments that not all of them will live through, and some whom do will be crippled as a result. yeah the spartans in Halo are pretty much just another take on space Marines.
I'm a bit worried about what the Numarines will mean for the old marines in the 40k imperium.
I guess I will hold judgment until the new fluff is rolled out completely and GW has a chance to iron out the kinks in the lore.
How will there be a semblance of balance kept between chaos and IoM with Gulliman being able to roll out thousands, if not millions of super soldiers that are supposedly superior to the original marines?
Granted, im glad the storyline is advancing, and at least 1 loyalist primarch is back, but this Numarine thing seems like it may be a bad idea.
I too am worried. They said they weren't removing the setting like they did with WHFB. They said the Primaris Marines aren't going to replace the regular old marines. But so far it doesn't add up. I'm reminded about how the eldar are supposedly a dying race and there are enough eldar being born to keep up with the amount dying in various stories. The best role of these primaris marines is to die in battle while actual marines with history and personality get angry.
I had an interesting thought about primaris marines in the fluff. We know that every chapter will get them. But if the Dark Angels end up with a bunch of NuMarines added to their chapter, that puts their secrecy into severe jeopardy. The tension between the DA who are trying to hunt down the Fallen in secret and the primaris marines who keep asking if they can tag along with the deathwing on their "reconoissance missions" (after all, the NuMarines are elite well-equipped warriors who should be justified in helping) and wondering why almost none of them are getting promoted into the DA inner circles could make for a really interesting novel.
gnome_idea_what wrote: I had an interesting thought about primaris marines in the fluff. We know that every chapter will get them. But if the Dark Angels end up with a bunch of NuMarines added to their chapter, that puts their secrecy into severe jeopardy. The tension between the DA who are trying to hunt down the Fallen in secret and the primaris marines who keep asking if they can tag along with the deathwing on their "reconoissance missions" (after all, the NuMarines are elite well-equipped warriors who should be justified in helping) and wondering why almost none of them are getting promoted into the DA inner circles could make for a really interesting novel.
this assumes that they wouldn't fully intergrate. this seems to be a new founding, so it's possiable each chapter is involved in these new marines right from creation. there is a LOT we don't know.
Well the QA has answered most of this:
* Primaris are either vat grown, created old style geneseed implantment, or upgraded from old marines
* Indomitus Crusade was made partly so Gulliman can travel the galaxy to provide Primaris technology to old chapters
* Some chapters will fully integrate Primaris in previous companies, some will fully upgrade whole chapter to Primaris, some will have companies of Primaris (not mix), and some won't have Primaris at all (at least at first). This not only represents different chapters potential distrust/wariness​ of the Primaris program, but it allows you to decide for your chapter.
* Primaris are more resistant to chaos corruption, but far from fully incorruptible.
* Effects of previous mutations will/may still effect Primaris
* a new founding of chapters was made by Gulliman with only Primaris.
I suspect all the cannon chapters are gonna run a mix and or primaris companies to hedge bets, it's be a partiuclarly bold move for GW to say "dark angels refuse to use them" that said, if the crussade is to diseminate this tech, the obvious question is "what of the blood angels?"
BrianDavion wrote: I suspect all the cannon chapters are gonna run a mix and or primaris companies to hedge bets, it's be a partiuclarly bold move for GW to say "dark angels refuse to use them" that said, if the crussade is to diseminate this tech, the obvious question is "what of the blood angels?"
There is ways through the warp rift they said, even if they are only temporary and not very reliable.
While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.
GoatboyBeta wrote: While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.
Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"
GoatboyBeta wrote: While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.
Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"
Oh I totally get why. Having a huge swath of established characters(and players own creations) either killed off and replaced or effectively downgraded is a potential gak storm that I don't blame GW for wanting to avoid. But personally how such accomplished and legendary warriors would have reacted to "the new order" would have been really interesting. Who would have accepted it and would they do so gladly or with a heavy heart? Who would have rejected it and what would they do? Fight even harder to prove there worth, or turn against those they feel have betrayed them? Maybe we will still get some of this, we still don't know what upgrading to Primaris entails. The process could be dangerous for the subject or have side effects, it could be too prohibitively long or expensive to offer to every Marine, or some Astartes may not be compatible. I guess time will tell and there is still a lot of potential with the direction GW have chosen, but handing out Primaris upgrades to every one feels like a wasted narrative opportunity.
GoatboyBeta wrote: While I understand why GW did it, IMO its a shame that existing Marines can be upgraded. Having the "old dogs" training, leading and fighting alongside the Primaris while facing there own potential obsolescence is a cool story hook.
Maybe on the other hand, if they made them unable to upgrade GW would be pretty much telling us "all those finecast space marine characters? yeah no chance they'll EVER be updated"
Oh I totally get why. Having a huge swath of established characters(and players own creations) either killed off and replaced or effectively downgraded is a potential gak storm that I don't blame GW for wanting to avoid. But personally how such accomplished and legendary warriors would have reacted to "the new order" would have been really interesting. Who would have accepted it and would they do so gladly or with a heavy heart? Who would have rejected it and what would they do? Fight even harder to prove there worth, or turn against those they feel have betrayed them? Maybe we will still get some of this, we still don't know what upgrading to Primaris entails. The process could be dangerous for the subject or have side effects, it could be too prohibitively long or expensive to offer to every Marine, or some Astartes may not be compatible. I guess time will tell and there is still a lot of potential with the direction GW have chosen, but handing out Primaris upgrades to every one feels like a wasted narrative opportunity.
I could see conflcit still arising, especially if Gulliman changes the codex astartes. More Conservitive minded chapters might resist that, I doubt the Ultramarines would but I could see the Hammers of Dorn for example
BrianDavion wrote: maybe, the problem is that with purely vat born marines, there is less room for individual chapters to have their own cultures etc. apparently per the live stream, the process allows for standard Marines to be upgraded, Primaris Marines to be created via the tradtional methods. or Primaris marines to be grown in a Vat. my GUT feeling is most eistablished chapters will create Marines normally, and eaither upgrade to Primairs during creation, or use Primiarus as a special upgrade for their veterns. new chapters may not care and simply go with the vat born approuch if it's more efficant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormonu wrote: Does anyone feel that the nuMarines were heavily influenced by the Spartan program of HALO?
I get that sort of vibe and the whole nuMarine just feels off - in the hopebright sort of feel mentioned earlier.
not really. the SPARTAN program has more in common with the standard Marine fluff, children taken into the program, trained from childhood to be soldiers, subjected to genetic enhancments that not all of them will live through, and some whom do will be crippled as a result. yeah the spartans in Halo are pretty much just another take on space Marines.
Oh god, yes! The fact marines can be upgraded means old marines will be phased out in a few years. It's a good thing, because there's only room for one marine anyway.
peirceg wrote: There is a precedent for time manipulation with the grey knights and the titan moon. voila magic numarines.
Can you please elaborate?
Edit: nevermind, refreshed myself on Grey Knights fluff. I think I pushed it from my mind because it's pretty bad.
in fairness we've long known the warp alters the flow of time etc. the idea that you might be able to if you knew eneugh about it (and Malcador was proably second only to the Emperor in knowledge of matters of the warp) use that to your advantage really isn't that odd. that said, we dunno how much time will have passed from the end of GS3 to the beginning of 8th edition. they could do a 100 year time jump for all we know
