Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:42:45


Post by: Skinnereal


They've changed. There is talk there of CAD-variants, but yeah, formations as we know them are gone.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:42:52


Post by: Talamare


Plot Twist - Formations aren't REALLY gone

It's just that now everyone has access to the exact same Formations


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:46:41


Post by: mrhappyface


I very much doubt formations are actually gone, rather they have just renamed formations to detachments so you can't use them unbound, we'll most likely still see all the formation madness we've come to love over this amazing edition.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:48:14


Post by: Talamare


The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:49:13


Post by: Wayniac


I love this. I hope the other detachments allow for themed like all elites or whatnot.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:50:27


Post by: Tiberius501


Awww yeeee. This makes me happy. If they add them in the future, at least it won't escalate to the madness it is today for a while. This has made my day


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:51:08


Post by: BomBomHotdog


 Talamare wrote:
Plot Twist - Formations aren't REALLY gone

It's just that now everyone has access to the exact same Formations


The new detachments seem fairly straight forward to me. First, no free stuff. Second, the detachments (at least the ones shown) and meant to scale with the game. Small game plays with the Patrol Detachment and if you want a huge game play the Battalion.

The devil in the detail is the Command Points and what you can use them for. I'd expect to have universal abilities as well as Faction specific abilities. The larger the game the more Command Points you get the more you can effect the game.

This will put armies on a far more even playing ground. Of course they can always add faction specific detachments that do other things, but at least initially we will have an even playing field.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:51:20


Post by: Tamwulf


You know what I got out of that press release?

Replace all references to "formations" with the word "detachments".

The statement that formations are now gone is 100% accurate. There are no more formations.

"Check out this awesome, cool, new rule that allows you to group units of models together and get army wide bonuses! We call it... detachments!"



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:56:51


Post by: Jbz`


My first thought:
What would prevent someone just having multiple Battalion detachments and getting as many (or more)command points as someone using a Brigade detachment, but without having to bring as many units?

Also taxi service detachments won't be as easy with Dedicated transport role units needing another unit to be used at all.
And if they keep the Only Faction (X) can start the game in a transport of Faction (X) that they put in the 7th edition Faq then it may even die completely


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 14:57:45


Post by: Jacksmiles


 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


Or, you know, they're just fine at different point levels because not everyone plays with the same amount of points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tamwulf wrote:
You know what I got out of that press release?

Replace all references to "formations" with the word "detachments".

The statement that formations are now gone is 100% accurate. There are no more formations.

"Check out this awesome, cool, new rule that allows you to group units of models together and get army wide bonuses! We call it... detachments!"



We knew detachments were staying - and the ones shown aren't like formations as we've known them. No free vehicles (yet), no extra rules (yet), just Force org charts with variations. Which is what we knew were coming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jbz` wrote:
My first thought:
What would prevent someone just having multiple Battalion detachments and getting as many (or more)command points as someone using a Brigade detachment, but without having to bring as many units?


Potentially whatever "competitive rules" they include - they mentioned something of that, and we don't know what it is yet.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:00:12


Post by: Charistoph


A rather foolish decision, imo. The biggest problem of Formations has been the Special Rules that come with them. There are a couple of exceptions to that, but broken units are broken units.

I also wonder how/if Allies will figure in to this. Dropping Formations is a huge step, and will definitely affect some collections as much as this would.

Anyone else notice that Dedicated Transports are no longer automatically a part of the unit's choice? I wonder how this will affect units like Crusader Squads taking Land Raider Crusaders.

Talamare wrote:Plot Twist - Formations aren't REALLY gone

It's just that now everyone has access to the exact same Formations

Not true. Formations have set unit lists. These are Role-based detachments. Not the same at all.

Talamare wrote:The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.

Oddly enough, the Patrol Detachment is based on the AD, just missing Objective Secured. I think that is the reason for the PD, though. To add in units that wouldn't fit in the larger detachments.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:00:26


Post by: Jacksmiles


Wayniac wrote:
I love this. I hope the other detachments allow for themed like all elites or whatnot.


I hope for this as well. I find the fact that there are 11 we haven't seen to be very interesting and intriguing.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:04:24


Post by: Talamare


Jacksmiles wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


Or, you know, they're just fine at different point levels because not everyone plays with the same amount of points?



No, the 3 examples do suck. It doesn't reveal anything remotely interesting.
They could have given us a much more exciting example, like they Heavy Weapons Detachment. (If there even is one).
But no, they gave us 3 insanely boring vanilla examples.

Even at really low point games, you should be able to easily fit in 2 HQ and 3 Troops to be able to get the Battalion bonus for +3 Command points. Now we just need to wait and see if those command points are even worth the bother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jbz` wrote:
My first thought:
What would prevent someone just having multiple Battalion detachments and getting as many (or more)command points as someone using a Brigade detachment, but without having to bring as many units?


You're going to end up with a lot of HQ and Troops if you do at least.

6 HQ and 9 Troops minimal, tho that does sound like it would cost WAY less than being FORCED to take 3 Elites, 3 Fasts, and 3 Heavies


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:12:48


Post by: DoomMouse


Interesting how none of the mentioned detachments include slots for lords of war. I wonder how they will be fielded?

Fortifications too for that matter...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:17:09


Post by: Luciferian


My army can't even take troop choices as an option in 7th, so here's hoping they thought of me for 8th...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:18:39


Post by: jreilly89


 DoomMouse wrote:
Interesting how none of the mentioned detachments include slots for lords of war. I wonder how they will be fielded?

Fortifications too for that matter...


Probably a large detachment, I.E. take 3 Patrols and unlock 1 Lord of War.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:20:57


Post by: 3orangewhips


 Talamare wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


Or, you know, they're just fine at different point levels because not everyone plays with the same amount of points?



No, the 3 examples do suck. It doesn't reveal anything remotely interesting.
They could have given us a much more exciting example, like they Heavy Weapons Detachment. (If there even is one).
But no, they gave us 3 insanely boring vanilla examples.

Even at really low point games, you should be able to easily fit in 2 HQ and 3 Troops to be able to get the Battalion bonus for +3 Command points. Now we just need to wait and see if those command points are even worth the bother.



I imagine they are trying to provide the broadest possible examples.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:21:14


Post by: Blacksails


Glad formations are gone. Looking forward to the rest of the new detachments.

Definitely a step in the right direction for balance.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:22:01


Post by: Talamare


 Charistoph wrote:

Not true. Formations have set unit lists. These are Role-based detachments. Not the same at all.
.


There are more than a few Core formations that are pretty open about what you can bring.

They just took that to the next step. Core Formations that are pretty open, and bland... about what you can bring.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:26:05


Post by: jeff white


Almost enough to overcome disappointingly due previous announcements.
Just hope it stays this way.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:27:04


Post by: Youn


Looking at the ones that they have posted. My Grey Knights generally will take Patrols and my Marine force will take Battalions.

I just don't have enough Grey Knights to actually field a Battalion without all of those troops being strike squads.


My Eldar force could easily fill out the brigade if rangers are still considered troops.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:29:34


Post by: niv-mizzet


Thank god. "No extra cost" Formations were the worst thing ever to grace the game. I will never understand how anyone could even think that unevenly distributed power multipliers in an already unbalanced game is anywhere close to a good idea.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:34:34


Post by: Vaktathi


Formations, as they existed in 7E, do indeed appear to be gone.

And nothing of value was lost.

Not one thing.

The new detachments, at this point, appear to be variations of the old tradition FOC/CAD with generic command benefits, available to all. This is fine, thus far I have no problem with it.

No more "hey take 3 aspect warrior units you were gonna take anyway and theyre all magically BS5" or "get a dozen free vehicles" garbage and the like.





Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:37:47


Post by: Elbows


The ones shown in the preview are simply highlighting how the game scales. They're not opposite detachments or options really. As the game gets larger, you must bring X number more troop units, etc. By doing so you unlock command points (I guess that's more important in larger games).

They also mentioned, what, 14 actual "detachment" styles included in the main rules? So you'll have fast-attack minded ones, heavy support minded ones etc. I wouldn't worry till you actually see all of the options.

PS: Glad to see anything like the garbage formations destroyed and tossed in the bin.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:38:56


Post by: Charistoph


Talamare wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:

Not true. Formations have set unit lists. These are Role-based detachments. Not the same at all.
.

There are more than a few Core formations that are pretty open about what you can bring.

They just took that to the next step. Core Formations that are pretty open, and bland... about what you can bring.

They were still set unit lists. Sure, there were a few 0-X options across the Core Formations, but they still listed specific units as opposed to just giving the number of Roles to fill. These are the descendants of CADs, and have no association to Formations or Strike Forces.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:39:26


Post by: Verviedi


This makes me happy. I wonder where the LoWs are?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:41:17


Post by: Charistoph


 Verviedi wrote:
This makes me happy. I wonder where the LoWs are?

There will probably be ones that are just set for Lords of War. Either that or Imperial Knights just changed Factions!


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:43:27


Post by: Don Savik


These are 3 of the most basic ones out of 14. There's going to be ELEVEN MORE. I think we can all relax and not panic everyone. Or, if you are going to panic, at least set fire to some things. Make an experience out of it you know?

Its very very fascinating to see fliers not being fast attack. That means there should be options for bike armies (minimum 1 HQ 2 fast attack). Heck I could even make an ork warbuggy army. Sounds awesome.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:45:19


Post by: jreilly89


I really hope some of the new detachments are like some of the old formations. Not in terms of bonuses, but being able to take 4 units of Ogryn and 4 units of Bullgryn. Basically, the freedom of Unbound without people freaking out over the idea of an Unbound army.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:45:35


Post by: Verviedi


 Charistoph wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
This makes me happy. I wonder where the LoWs are?

There will probably be ones that are just set for Lords of War. Either that or Imperial Knights just changed Factions!

I approve. I wonder if there's an all-flyer detachment? I'd love to play Codex: Barracudas.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:47:35


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Verviedi wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
This makes me happy. I wonder where the LoWs are?

There will probably be ones that are just set for Lords of War. Either that or Imperial Knights just changed Factions!

I approve. I wonder if there's an all-flyer detachment? I'd love to play Codex: Barracudas.


Fear the flying dragon mech army!


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:48:12


Post by: G00fySmiley


may gladius and conclave rot in hell where they belong


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:49:26


Post by: Kanluwen


 G00fySmiley wrote:
may gladius and conclave rot in hell where they belong

Those were Detachments, not Formations.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:49:36


Post by: CATACHANTV


The new formations are very interesting, a new way for the game.



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:50:12


Post by: 3orangewhips


 jreilly89 wrote:
I really hope some of the new detachments are like some of the old formations. Not in terms of bonuses, but being able to take 4 units of Ogryn and 4 units of Bullgryn. Basically, the freedom of Unbound without people freaking out over the idea of an Unbound army.


I'm sure there are elite detachments that don't require so many troops. A 1st company army, for example.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:50:58


Post by: Grimgold


Those were the three they "showed" us on the live stream, nice to get some detail on them though. Notice the lack of lord of war, solid bet they get their own force org, at least one probably two. The first will be a single lord of war, so you can add them to an existing army. The second will be an all lord of war FoC so you can have things like imperial knight houses. The thought of using the second one for baneblades or wraithknights is a little weird, but hey it's a new edition.

If all existing formations can fit into one of the new FoCs, then there will be at least three were troops aren't compulsory, and instead have fast attack (ravenwing/white scars), elites (deathwing), or heavy support (Imperial Guard tank companies) are the compulsory units. If they have three tiers each, that's 9 more, which added to the two lord of war and three troop style FoCs is all 14.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:57:06


Post by: ERJAK


 Kanluwen wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
may gladius and conclave rot in hell where they belong

Those were Detachments, not Formations.


Conclave was a formation.


And cabal/anything tzeentch did was a much bigger crotch punt.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:58:22


Post by: Jbz`


 Grimgold wrote:

If all existing formations can fit into one of the new FoCs, then there will be at least three were troops aren't compulsory, and instead have fast attack (ravenwing/white scars), elites (deathwing), or heavy support (Imperial Guard tank companies) are the compulsory units. If they have three tiers each, that's 9 more, which added to the two lord of war and three troop style FoCs is all 14.


That would seem to line up.
I imagine they'll not give as many command points as the one's we've seen at the same scale
And the LOW detachment(s) probably won't give any


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 15:59:35


Post by: Vaktathi


Doesnt really matter, conclave or gladius as detachment or formation, functionally they did the same thing, and formations were just a type of detachment.

I'm just glad they're gone.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:02:37


Post by: Grimgold


Jbz` wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:

If all existing formations can fit into one of the new FoCs, then there will be at least three were troops aren't compulsory, and instead have fast attack (ravenwing/white scars), elites (deathwing), or heavy support (Imperial Guard tank companies) are the compulsory units. If they have three tiers each, that's 9 more, which added to the two lord of war and three troop style FoCs is all 14.


That would seem to line up.
I imagine they'll not give as many command points as the one's we've seen at the same scale
And the LOW detachment(s) probably won't give any


I imagine the Single LoW will not get any command points, but it would be weird to have an entire Imperial knight style army with no command points. They might cap out at 3, but I imagine they will at least get some.

Also, did anyone else notice they confirmed keywords:

The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example).


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:10:16


Post by: ERJAK


 Vaktathi wrote:
Doesnt really matter, conclave or gladius as detachment or formation, functionally they did the same thing, and formations were just a type of detachment.

I'm just glad they're gone.


Just noticed it was Kan again lol. Keep going man you'll get one eventually!

As for the formation/detach thing the biggest problem was the huge swings in power and availability. The vestal task force being one of 3 usable detachment by SoB pre FoC was kicking them while they were down.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:30:12


Post by: blaktoof


Core rules will have 14 detachments, I am willing to bet money the army books will include new detachments that will have keyword restrictions such as "Space Marine only" and the word formation will be dead but they will exist again in some new form in the time to come that is 8th.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:36:48


Post by: Apple fox


 3orangewhips wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
I really hope some of the new detachments are like some of the old formations. Not in terms of bonuses, but being able to take 4 units of Ogryn and 4 units of Bullgryn. Basically, the freedom of Unbound without people freaking out over the idea of an Unbound army.


I'm sure there are elite detachments that don't require so many troops. A 1st company army, for example.


Hopefully they design the game rules and missions to desire a diverse army, taking a a portion of elements from a codex to function. Rather than favoring to mono built army.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:44:44


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Okay, time for me to fill out that Brigade detachment!

TBH, I like the look of it and the Battalion.

It said "Keyword, Imperium", so I'm going out on a limb and guessing my 5 HQ's can be ABG Vanquisher TC, Saint Celestine, Bran Redmaw, Coteaz, and a Canoness for carrying the no deep-strikers relic. Then my 3 Fast Attacks will be Melta-Dominions, and my Heavy slots will be Exorcists, Basilisks, Wyverns, Manticores, and Leman Russes, the 6 troops will be a mix of mech sisters and footguard, and the Elites will be full of Wolf Guard and Repentia and Vigilators.

Like Castellans, but I can actually use my ABG and Space Wolves in it.

Now, if there's one with a load of Heavy Support slots...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:47:31


Post by: Formerly Wu


Apple fox wrote:
Hopefully they design the game rules and missions to desire a diverse army, taking a a portion of elements from a codex to function. Rather than favoring to mono built army.

That would be the logical idea, yeah. More diverse armies get Command Points, while more mono-focused ones get the benefit of stacking a particular role.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 16:53:24


Post by: Vitali Advenil


Best news Ive seen all day. Goodbye free rhinos, goodbye BS4 overwatch, goodbye respawning troops, and hello orks finally getting a decent formation, even if everyone else also has it.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:04:09


Post by: tneva82


 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


Cheaper way to bring in allies with patrol than battallion due to less minimums.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:05:36


Post by: Galef


One thing I noticed (that I sure others have too) is that Flyers have their own Battlefield role, rather than being FA or Heavy.
I find that to be interesting and may lead to more Flyers being taken since they will no longer compete with those other choices.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:07:15


Post by: tneva82


Jbz` wrote:
My first thought:
What would prevent someone just having multiple Battalion detachments and getting as many (or more)command points as someone using a Brigade detachment, but without having to bring as many units?


Somebody doesn't want to bring in _9_ troops but would like to bring in some heavy support etc as well?

Sure unit count is less. But 9 troops is preeeetty much to take 3 battallio detachments along with 6 mandatory HQ(vs 3 in brigade)



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:07:49


Post by: Luciferian


 Galef wrote:
One thing I noticed (that I sure others have too) is that Flyers have their own Battlefield role, rather than being FA or Heavy.
I find that to be interesting and may lead to more Flyers being taken since they will no longer compete with those other choices.

Or fewer, if there aren't as many flyer slots.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:09:31


Post by: Charistoph


 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Best news Ive seen all day. Goodbye free rhinos, goodbye BS4 overwatch, goodbye respawning troops, and hello orks finally getting a decent formation, even if everyone else also has it.

We don't know how Dedicated Transports will work, so a little too early to be calling down the free Rhinos. Not to mention, who knows what boondoggles GW will come up with down the road. Usually a year after an edition's launch, they are already breaking their "vision" in half. Remember, that's about how long between 7th's launch and Codex: Space Marines.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:09:51


Post by: tneva82


 DoomMouse wrote:
Interesting how none of the mentioned detachments include slots for lords of war. I wonder how they will be fielded?

Fortifications too for that matter...


Some of the other detachments? Battallion+super heavy detachment or something for example.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:10:27


Post by: Robin5t


Mildly concerned that all the listed detachments need a HQ, but dropping formations is definitely a good step.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:10:46


Post by: Kanluwen


tneva82 wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Interesting how none of the mentioned detachments include slots for lords of war. I wonder how they will be fielded?

Fortifications too for that matter...


Some of the other detachments? Battallion+super heavy detachment or something for example.

Which to me seems more awkward than the current system.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:11:47


Post by: wuestenfux


Formations are gone atm.
However, I think that formations will come back. Have a look at AoS.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:27:44


Post by: Alpharius


Next person to break RULE #1 in here is going to...not be happy.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:47:42


Post by: rollawaythestone


I'm fine with this change. Formations were very unbalancing in 7th. They could have changed and updated them to make them more balanced, or make you pay for them, etc. But oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Robin5t wrote:
Mildly concerned that all the listed detachments need a HQ, but dropping formations is definitely a good step.


I wonder what they are going to do with Harlequins? Either give them an HQ, or they will be stuck using a faction-specific detachment that doesn't require an HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
 DoomMouse wrote:
Interesting how none of the mentioned detachments include slots for lords of war. I wonder how they will be fielded?

Fortifications too for that matter...


Some of the other detachments? Battallion+super heavy detachment or something for example.


Super heavies will no longer exist as such. They will just be extra strong units. There are no longer unit types like Gargantuan MC or Superheavy.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:53:25


Post by: Vaktathi


Armies that dont have HQ's can very easily be given them, lots of armies have models that serve multiple purposes. Just make Troupe Master with an extra wound or two and another point or two of WS and/or Ld, add on 15 or 20pts, and call it an HQ for instance, and you've solved the issue for Harlequins. Done. Or just make them able to nominate a single Troupe as an HQ with some "veteran" upgrade options or something.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:55:14


Post by: tneva82


 rollawaythestone wrote:
I wonder what they are going to do with Harlequins? Either give them an HQ, or they will be stuck using a faction-specific detachment that doesn't require an HQ.


Or one of the 14 that doesn't require HQ.

Super heavies will no longer exist as such. They will just be extra strong units. There are no longer unit types like Gargantuan MC or Superheavy.


That's one possibility that they are just heavy support etc. BUT there's this "lords of war" choise. Which means old super heavies likely are lords of war unit types and why they are in own detachments is probably so that you can't spam them AND get command points. For example detachment with 1 lords of war only could exists but gives 0 command points so if you bring several LOW's into the table by taking multiples of that detachment you are hamstringing your command points.

Meanwhile if they were in say HS you could bring 3 of them in battallion and get 3 command points(albeit with other units required).


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:57:57


Post by: rollawaythestone


tneva82 wrote:

That's one possibility that they are just heavy support etc. BUT there's this "lords of war" choise. Which means old super heavies likely are lords of war unit types and why they are in own detachments is probably so that you can't spam them AND get command points. For example detachment with 1 lords of war only could exists but gives 0 command points so if you bring several LOW's into the table by taking multiples of that detachment you are hamstringing your command points.

Meanwhile if they were in say HS you could bring 3 of them in battallion and get 3 command points(albeit with other units required).


Where do you see Lord of War choice? I don't see any LoW slot on the new detachments.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 17:59:51


Post by: Marmatag


Basically if you want command points you have to pay a troops tax.

We need to know more about command points, before any of this has meaningful context.

Why would anyone take the 2HQ 3Troop detachment when the patrol detachment exists? Command points. Since that's the reason i'd pay a high troop tax, let's see what i get...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:01:03


Post by: rollawaythestone


 Marmatag wrote:
Basically if you want command points you have to pay a troops tax.

We need to know more about command points, before any of this has meaningful context.

Why would anyone take the 2HQ 3Troop detachment when the patrol detachment exists? Command points. Since that's the reason i'd pay a high troop tax, let's see what i get...


I quite like this. If command points are useful, there are some meaningful list building decisions here.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:01:55


Post by: Galef


 Luciferian wrote:
 Galef wrote:
One thing I noticed (that I sure others have too) is that Flyers have their own Battlefield role, rather than being FA or Heavy.
I find that to be interesting and may lead to more Flyers being taken since they will no longer compete with those other choices.

Or fewer, if there aren't as many flyer slots.

I'd be willing to bet that one of the 14 detachments will have more than a few Flyer slots available.

Just like one of those 14 will undoubtedly not include a minimum HQ so that Skitarri and Harlequins can be taken.
Although it is possible that Battlefield roles could be shifted and a currently Elite Shadowseer could become an HQ. Although that does fit the fluff, you get what I mean.



Question for the group: Did we get confirmation that the 14 detachments are just in the main rules, or does this include the Faction specific ones in the 5 army books that will be released on Day 1 with the main rules?

-


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:02:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And good riddance to Formations.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept. Army themed special stuff to reflect how that force fights best. Beautiful, brilliant concept.

But the execution. Oh Lordy that execution was horrible.

Lopsided power scales. Wonky dishing out. Some armies had over a dozen, with various decent ones. Others? Very few, possibly none. And they were all over the shop.

Now that last point barely snuffs a weirdo completist like myself, but even having all the books I couldn't tell you what's in which.

But the first point is why they won't be missed. There seemed absolutely no rhyme or reason to the formation power curve. Some were absolute crap. Others total no-brainers. Some I thought were fine for what they represented (a company of Space Marines is a lot of points, many spent on largely mediocre troops), others you had to wonder what the designer was taking when they wrote it (Riptide Wing) and just seemed powerful for being powerful'a sake.

However....whilst the new approach is very much welcome, I am withholding judgement until not only we've seen all the Detachments and their requirements, and how the various armies interact with them. Whilst I hope not, I suspect some armies will find perhaps two, maybe three truly useful, whilst other armies can make good use of all of them (Ynnari for instance have the free run of three Codecies. Compare to Orks...)

Here it's all down the structure, minimum requirements and benefits procured. But, provided Riptide Wings and Wraithknight Gangbangs are out, with a little luck the differences will be largely academic.

It's a brave new world, but we're yet to land there. It seems lush and habitable, but could be a Deathworld yet.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:05:56


Post by: Marmatag


I think they need to be careful here. A lot of vanilla units were made viable SOLELY because of formation.

Generic assault marines. Does anyone use these guys outside of a skyhammer?

And, if you really want to use assault marines, wouldn't you be better off with a patrol detachment of BA, always?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:07:14


Post by: Luciferian


blaktoof wrote:
Core rules will have 14 detachments, I am willing to bet money the army books will include new detachments that will have keyword restrictions such as "Space Marine only" and the word formation will be dead but they will exist again in some new form in the time to come that is 8th.

I think that's a pretty safe bet. If they are going to keep releasing codices or at least "grand alliance" books, which it seems like they are, then surely those books will include faction-specific FOC selections. I would expect a majority of legal formations in 7th to be around in some fashion, albeit without all of the bonuses. So really, if I'm seeing this correctly, the big change here is that they're substituting the free bonuses and formation buffs of 7th edition formations for Command Points, which they can more easily dole out and standardize in a fashion that promotes balance.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:07:29


Post by: rollawaythestone


 rollawaythestone wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

That's one possibility that they are just heavy support etc. BUT there's this "lords of war" choise. Which means old super heavies likely are lords of war unit types and why they are in own detachments is probably so that you can't spam them AND get command points. For example detachment with 1 lords of war only could exists but gives 0 command points so if you bring several LOW's into the table by taking multiples of that detachment you are hamstringing your command points.

Meanwhile if they were in say HS you could bring 3 of them in battallion and get 3 command points(albeit with other units required).


Where do you see Lord of War choice? I don't see any LoW slot on the new detachments.


Ah. I see it now. It's on the Battlefield Role image.
Spoiler:



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:07:35


Post by: Grimgold


 Alpharius wrote:
Next person to break RULE #1 in here is going to...not be happy.


That's why I think you closed the wrong thread, this one's title was basically a victory lap for people who hated formations, which of course doesn't go well with the people who liked formations, and amounted to an invitation to fight about it. The others title was neutral and focused on the article released today, which actually has next to nothing to do with formations. You could always change the title to reflect what the conversation is supposed to be about.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:07:52


Post by: tneva82


 rollawaythestone wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

That's one possibility that they are just heavy support etc. BUT there's this "lords of war" choise. Which means old super heavies likely are lords of war unit types and why they are in own detachments is probably so that you can't spam them AND get command points. For example detachment with 1 lords of war only could exists but gives 0 command points so if you bring several LOW's into the table by taking multiples of that detachment you are hamstringing your command points.

Meanwhile if they were in say HS you could bring 3 of them in battallion and get 3 command points(albeit with other units required).


Where do you see Lord of War choice? I don't see any LoW slot on the new detachments.


Above where they show all battlefield roles.

Therefore there must be slots for LOW SOMEWHERE. Just not in the first 3(out of 14) detachments we have seen. Which I suspect is to try to make it that you sacrifice something to get those. Especially many.

edit: Didn't see you had already seen it(damn this forum got busy quickly! wonder why


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:12:18


Post by: Martel732


Formations were never the root of the problem. Miscosted units were. This does nothing but hand Eldar victory if that problem is not addressed. Space marine gladius is basically an admission that traditional marine forces needed to be spotted 400 pts vs the 7th ed hotness.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:13:31


Post by: Grimgold


tneva82 wrote:


Above where they show all battlefield roles.

Therefore there must be slots for LOW SOMEWHERE. Just not in the first 3(out of 14) detachments we have seen. Which I suspect is to try to make it that you sacrifice something to get those. Especially many.


I will bet you real money there are two LoW FoCs, one for a single LoW meant for adding a LoW to another FoC, and one for a LoW only style FoC ala imperial knight houses. The single LoW will not give command points, and the multi-LoW will give minimal Command points. They may have restrictions on the minimum number of points, such as 2k+ for the single LoW FoC.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:13:48


Post by: Luciferian


 Marmatag wrote:
I think they need to be careful here. A lot of vanilla units were made viable SOLELY because of formation.

Generic assault marines. Does anyone use these guys outside of a skyhammer?

And, if you really want to use assault marines, wouldn't you be better off with a patrol detachment of BA, always?

Well I suppose the hope is that the game will be balanced enough to allow most unit types to be viable in some way, although I'm not exactly going to hold my breath on that. I do agree that the whole point of formations was to make different army types actually viable, though. The whole reason some SM formations got free transports was to bring them into parity, so basically what they were saying is that not all units of an equal points value are actually comparable and certain types of formations will need x amount of extra points in order to compete. That was a pretty clumsy way of doing things and it obviously didn't work out. I think the general mechanics behind this new system are much better since it allows for a lot more granularity and control in their game design as opposed to just making up wacky free powers for each individual formation. But a lot is riding on the balance of each factions' units point for point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Formations were never the root of the problem. Miscosted units were. This does nothing but hand Eldar victory if that problem is not addressed. Space marine gladius is basically an admission that traditional marine forces needed to be spotted 400 pts vs the 7th ed hotness.

Exactly.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:21:24


Post by: MilkmanAl


 Marmatag wrote:
I think they need to be careful here. A lot of vanilla units were made viable SOLELY because of formation.

Generic assault marines. Does anyone use these guys outside of a skyhammer?

And, if you really want to use assault marines, wouldn't you be better off with a patrol detachment of BA, always?
Balance and play testing fix those issues to a large extent, and you're thinking of these units in their current contexts with their current rules. I don't think that's a useful exercise.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:28:15


Post by: rollawaythestone


They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:29:47


Post by: Luciferian


 rollawaythestone wrote:
They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.

So one would hope, anyway.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:29:59


Post by: Martel732


 rollawaythestone wrote:
They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.


This is a company that let scatbikes go to press. I'm not trusting them to add 2+2 correctly.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:36:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Martel732 wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:
They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.


This is a company that let scatbikes go to press. I'm not trusting them to add 2+2 correctly.


I'd argue it's a very different company to the one that allowed that particular thing.

But only argue. I'm not saying your fears are completely unjustified


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:39:10


Post by: Luciferian


 Galef wrote:



Question for the group: Did we get confirmation that the 14 detachments are just in the main rules, or does this include the Faction specific ones in the 5 army books that will be released on Day 1 with the main rules?

-

I'm fairly confident the initial 14 are just the standard ones from the BRB.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:40:15


Post by: G00fySmiley


Martel732 wrote:
Formations were never the root of the problem. Miscosted units were. This does nothing but hand Eldar victory if that problem is not addressed. Space marine gladius is basically an admission that traditional marine forces needed to be spotted 400 pts vs the 7th ed hotness.


there were ways to address it outside of 400 points of free models, and they only gave it to marines.

my orks could have used a few hundred extra points to match the next weakest codex or like 50% more points to match elder. 2k elder vs 3k orks would actually probably be a fairly even match currently. probably only need 2.5k to match a non gladius marine 2k.

on the formations front though here is hoping the promised balance occurs and that things like gladius are no longer needed /raiseglass


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:43:03


Post by: MilkmanAl


Martel732 wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:
They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.


This is a company that let scatbikes go to press. I'm not trusting them to add 2+2 correctly.
I agree to an extent, but it seems like there's been a marked paradigm shift at GW regarding how they treat the game. (Hopefully) gone are the days of "We make models, not games" where whoever decided to write a codex got to throw in whatever schlock sounded neat at the time and send it off to become 40k canon. As I recall, GW's PR team has actually mocked themselves on several recent occasions for not play testing rules in the past. I think they've FINALLY realized that a solid game is the best way to drive sales and promote loyalty (thus generating future sales and consequent product longevity), rather than flip-flopping rules all over the place and creating wildly imbalanced units that'll fly off the shelves briefly but ruin the tabletop experience. I'm optimistic this edition is an extension of the community involvement and good will they've shown over the past year+ with FAQs and whatnot.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:43:57


Post by: Martel732


We'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Formations were never the root of the problem. Miscosted units were. This does nothing but hand Eldar victory if that problem is not addressed. Space marine gladius is basically an admission that traditional marine forces needed to be spotted 400 pts vs the 7th ed hotness.


there were ways to address it outside of 400 points of free models, and they only gave it to marines.

my orks could have used a few hundred extra points to match the next weakest codex or like 50% more points to match elder. 2k elder vs 3k orks would actually probably be a fairly even match currently. probably only need 2.5k to match a non gladius marine 2k.

on the formations front though here is hoping the promised balance occurs and that things like gladius are no longer needed /raiseglass


Not really. It's just that other factions didn't get their free 400 pts to take on Tau and Eldar and Demons.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:46:36


Post by: tneva82


Martel732 wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:
They are re-doing all the units from the ground up. All signs indicate that formations aren't needed to make units viable anymore.


This is a company that let scatbikes go to press. I'm not trusting them to add 2+2 correctly.


Well if they had been doing units from scratch AND formations from scratch(formations as they were is dead idea from the get go) that's even more things where things could go wrong.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 18:47:39


Post by: Captain Brown


Glad that they are gone, my armies were always weak and my opponents always seemed to get better saving throws or free light tanks.

CB


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 19:04:37


Post by: Vaktathi


Concerns about formations being "necessary" to run core units or to allow X army to compete against Y army have to realize that every army is getting new rules and some major core mechanics are being changed, and the current power paradigm will not hold going forward. We may see Grey Knights and Orks as the new power armies, or Guard and Dark Eldar. We could have reasonable balance across the board (*snort*). Either way, we probably wont have the same power paradigm we have now.


Likewise, such concerns rest on the assumption that such formations ever had any balance intent, which is unlikely to be the case.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 19:29:35


Post by: DoomMouse


I think they're going to really struggle balancing EVERY unit in the game for an entirely new gaming system. I reckon they could have done it fairly easily if they kept the core rules the same as seventh, as it was fairly apparent which units were too strong/too weak from long experience playing with them, With a whole new system, the most undercosted units/combos will only come out once the community has had a few months to digest the new rules.

I do expect unit pricing to be better than it was in seventh, but I'm not expecting a balanced-game miracle here


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 19:54:23


Post by: Ronin_eX


 Marmatag wrote:
I think they need to be careful here. A lot of vanilla units were made viable SOLELY because of formation.

Generic assault marines. Does anyone use these guys outside of a skyhammer?

And, if you really want to use assault marines, wouldn't you be better off with a patrol detachment of BA, always?


Well, we have yet to see the rules for chainswords yet and have no idea what their movement rules will be. But they hit on 3+ now (presumably, can't see why they wouldn't given that tacticals do) and the pistol rules have a lot of interesting implications for them.

The reason assault marines have sucked for a good long while (beyond assault being bad the last few editions) had a lot to do with them not having a lot of punch due to the small size of the unit and the all-or-nothing nature of AP meaning their close combat weapons (one of the most iconic weapons in the game) has sort of been at actually killing things.

But if the chainsword gets some rules allowing it to punch harder (I wouldn't say no to AP -1 on that) and depending on what plasma pistols look like, assault marines may actually be worth taking on their own without needed a layer of additional rules and additions.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:43:59


Post by: Luciferian


 Ronin_eX wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I think they need to be careful here. A lot of vanilla units were made viable SOLELY because of formation.

Generic assault marines. Does anyone use these guys outside of a skyhammer?

And, if you really want to use assault marines, wouldn't you be better off with a patrol detachment of BA, always?


Well, we have yet to see the rules for chainswords yet and have no idea what their movement rules will be. But they hit on 3+ now (presumably, can't see why they wouldn't given that tacticals do) and the pistol rules have a lot of interesting implications for them.

The reason assault marines have sucked for a good long while (beyond assault being bad the last few editions) had a lot to do with them not having a lot of punch due to the small size of the unit and the all-or-nothing nature of AP meaning their close combat weapons (one of the most iconic weapons in the game) has sort of been at actually killing things.

But if the chainsword gets some rules allowing it to punch harder (I wouldn't say no to AP -1 on that) and depending on what plasma pistols look like, assault marines may actually be worth taking on their own without needed a layer of additional rules and additions.

My main issue with Assault Squads is that they count as fast attack even without jump packs or transports. If I could take them as troop choices over TAC marines I would do so in a heartbeat, even if they were merely foot slogging across the board or in a lowly Rhino. Otherwise, there are just too many choices for fast attack which are a better points expenditure. But we'll see if that changes.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:44:49


Post by: Traditio


Do you think that space marines are going to be able to take rhinos as fast attacks?

...

...

Never mind. Stupid question. Of course not. Dedicated Transports are now their own FOC slot.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:46:02


Post by: BrianDavion


 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


my concern is will these detachments give a massive advantage to horde armies. it's a lot easier to plunk down 6 squads of IG vets then it is to plunk down 6 GKT squads


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:47:16


Post by: Traditio


BrianDavion wrote:my concern is will these detachments give a massive advantage to horde armies. it's a lot easier to plunk down 6 squads of IG vets then it is to plunk down 6 GKT squads


Then maybe that's a good reason to run some GKs in power armor, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, I love these changes.

It rewards people who run "balanced," "well rounded" lists and SIGNIFICANTLY punishes people who run gimmicky and spam lists.

That's a good move on GW's part.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:49:25


Post by: Luciferian


 Traditio wrote:
Do you think that space marines are going to be able to take rhinos as fast attacks?

I don't think so, I think they'll be additional transport options to be bought with units. So if you buy a TAC or Assault Squad you can also purchase the Rhino, but it will be part of the unit and whatever it counts as just as dedicated transports are now. That's complete conjecture, though, and it's only based on the fact that transports have their own slot in the new FOC types they teased.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:51:11


Post by: rollawaythestone


 Traditio wrote:

It rewards people who run "balanced," "well rounded" lists and SIGNIFICANTLY punishes people who run gimmicky and spam lists.

That's a good move on GW's part.


+1

The more benefits well-rounded armies receive the better. Gimmicks and spam are powerful options, and so well-rounded armies probably need natural benefits to keep them on par.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:52:16


Post by: Traditio


One final point:

Did anybody notice how these FOCs somewhat resemble the scaling FOCs presented in the proposed rules section a while back?

Probably a complete coincidence, but still interesting to think about.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:54:09


Post by: Grimgold


I think transports are their own thing for this particular set of FoCs, I don't think that will be the case for all FoCs. Think of it as the bonus for taking this particular style of FoC. Other FoCs might focus on different classes of units and have different advantages.

For instance, some kind of Sam Hain/ravenwing style fast attack as compulsory (instead of troops) is practically required to be able to host many of the current armies. I don't think they will get "Slotless" dedicated transports, and will instead have some other kind of advantage.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:55:06


Post by: Galef


 rollawaythestone wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

It rewards people who run "balanced," "well rounded" lists and SIGNIFICANTLY punishes people who run gimmicky and spam lists.

That's a good move on GW's part.


+1

The more benefits well-rounded armies receive the better. Gimmicks and spam are powerful options, and so well-rounded armies probably need natural benefits to keep them on par.

Could this be the rebirth of the Take-All-Comers list? I hope so

-


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 20:55:21


Post by: Traditio


One final final point:

Where do you think the flyrant is going to go? HQ or flyer?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:02:55


Post by: Arson Fire


 Traditio wrote:
One final final point:

Where do you think the flyrant is going to go? HQ or flyer?

Interesting question.
In AoS a huge leader model may be considered both a Behemoth, and a Leader (based on the keywords in its profile).
So it counts against both the number of leaders you may have, and the number of behemoths you may have.
I wonder if single units could take up multiple detachment slots here.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:03:04


Post by: Luciferian


 rollawaythestone wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

It rewards people who run "balanced," "well rounded" lists and SIGNIFICANTLY punishes people who run gimmicky and spam lists.

That's a good move on GW's part.


+1

The more benefits well-rounded armies receive the better. Gimmicks and spam are powerful options, and so well-rounded armies probably need natural benefits to keep them on par.


We'll see. I'd say my list is well-rounded even though my main detachment is 100% fast attack. I have a large variety of weapon and unit types considering that almost everyone is on a bike, and I'm already paying an 11-26 point premium per marine when compared to the cost of each TAC marine. That's before you count weapons, too. If specialized, yet fluffy lists like mine suddenly become garbage compared to cookie-cutter CAD builds with a bunch of basic troops I'd consider that a major failure on the part of GW. There's nothing really stopping a troops-based list from being spammy, anyway. In fact, it's kind of the point, isn't it?

I don't think we should be concerned about punishing anyone for their playstyle, just making sure that cheap spam and gimmicks aren't the all or nothing gambits that they are now.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:06:49


Post by: commander dante


As long as there is a 3 LoW Detachment ill be happy
(So i can refield the Kytan-Trinity of Blood)


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:08:42


Post by: docdoom77


 Traditio wrote:
One final final point:

Where do you think the flyrant is going to go? HQ or flyer?


I'm hoping that winged creatures go back to being jump. rather than flying. Then it'd definitely be HQ. A man can dream.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:09:52


Post by: rollawaythestone


 Luciferian wrote:
 rollawaythestone wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

It rewards people who run "balanced," "well rounded" lists and SIGNIFICANTLY punishes people who run gimmicky and spam lists.

That's a good move on GW's part.


+1

The more benefits well-rounded armies receive the better. Gimmicks and spam are powerful options, and so well-rounded armies probably need natural benefits to keep them on par.


We'll see. I'd say my list is well-rounded even though my main detachment is 100% fast attack. I have a large variety of weapon and unit types considering that almost everyone is on a bike, and I'm already paying an 11-26 point premium per marine when compared to the cost of each TAC marine. That's before you count weapons, too. If specialized, yet fluffy lists like mine suddenly become garbage compared to cookie-cutter CAD builds with a bunch of basic troops I'd consider that a major failure on the part of GW. There's nothing really stopping a troops-based list from being spammy, anyway. In fact, it's kind of the point, isn't it?

I don't think we should be concerned about punishing anyone for their playstyle, just making sure that cheap spam and gimmicks aren't the all or nothing gambits that they are now.


Yeah, ultimately the goal of good design would be to attempt to equalize the power level between different playstyles, units, and lists.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:11:53


Post by: Luciferian


 rollawaythestone wrote:


Yeah, ultimately the goal of good design would be to attempt to equalize the power level between different playstyles, units, and lists.


Indeed, which is a daunting task for any game designer. Hopefully they have the will to at least do the best they can.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:12:31


Post by: Traditio


Luciferian wrote:We'll see. I'd say my list is well-rounded even though my main detachment is 100% fast attack. I have a large variety of weapon and unit types considering that almost everyone is on a bike, and I'm already paying an 11-26 point premium per marine when compared to the cost of each TAC marine. That's before you count weapons, too. If specialized, yet fluffy lists like mine suddenly become garbage compared to cookie-cutter CAD builds with a bunch of basic troops I'd consider that a major failure on the part of GW. There's nothing really stopping a troops-based list from being spammy, anyway. In fact, it's kind of the point, isn't it?

I don't think we should be concerned about punishing anyone for their playstyle, just making sure that cheap spam and gimmicks aren't the all or nothing gambits that they are now.


I've played against a ravenwing list before. I used a crimson fists gun line.

I think you'll pardon me when I say that I hope that you get an all fast attack detachment...and I hope that it confers exactly zero command points.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:19:02


Post by: Luciferian


 Traditio wrote:


I've played against a ravenwing list before. I used a crimson fists gun line.

I think you'll pardon me when I say that I hope that you get an all fast attack detachment...and I hope that it confers exactly zero command points.


I'll pardon you... for putting your personal preference and bias above your desire for good game design


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:21:59


Post by: gnome_idea_what


BrianDavion wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


my concern is will these detachments give a massive advantage to horde armies. it's a lot easier to plunk down 6 squads of IG vets then it is to plunk down 6 GKT squads

Patrol exists for 500ish point games. Also, for all we know horde armies will have their own problems. And if the command point buff effects target units, then having larger units might be a useful trade-off as while you have fewer command points your command points can carry further. Just theorizing, of course.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:22:59


Post by: Traditio


Luciferian wrote:I'll pardon you... for putting your personal preference and bias above your desire for good game design


Fair enough!

I will say this, though, and it's basically just me repeating what I've said several times before:

GW said that they're doing intensive play testing to ensure balance. I can only assume that at least one person used a ravenwing army.

I think that the majority of players are going to be happy with the result.

And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.




*Understand, I am not calling you or anyone else either on this thread or on this website a WAAC type. I am speaking very generally.



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:31:21


Post by: Luciferian


 Traditio wrote:

Fair enough!

I will say this, though, and it's basically just me repeating what I've said several times before:

GW said that they're doing intensive play testing to ensure balance. I can only assume that at least one person used a ravenwing army.

I think that the majority of players are going to be happy with the result.

And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.




*Understand, I am not calling you or anyone else either on this thread or on this website a WAAC type. I am speaking very generally.



No offense taken, I'm not a WAAC type at all, although just like everyone else I like having an optimal list for my playstyle and a fighting chance. Let's hope we all get exactly that

To be totally honest, my sole motivating factor in starting this army was that it was the cheapest way for me to get 1850 points after bartering with my DV set and scrounging for deals on eBay


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:31:52


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Vaktathi wrote:
Formations, as they existed in 7E, do indeed appear to be gone.

No more "hey take 3 aspect warrior units you were gonna take anyway and theyre all magically BS5" or "get a dozen free vehicles" garbage and the like.


We haven't seen the Datasheets for Eldar or Space Marines. For all we know, the basic Eldar Aspect is going to be WS2+ BS2+ and the basic 5-SM unit includes a "free" Razorback...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:34:49


Post by: Traditio


JohnHwangDD wrote:and the basic 5-SM unit includes a "free" Razorback...


Unlikely. The detachments that they revealed indicate a pattern of "limit 1 dedicated transport to two FOC selections."


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:47:00


Post by: Luciferian


 Traditio wrote:

Unlikely. The detachments that they revealed indicate a pattern of "limit 1 dedicated transport to two FOC selections."


Which is actually a pretty major incentive to field 5 man TAC squads over 10 man squads, as if there weren't enough already.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:47:38


Post by: Traditio


 Luciferian wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

Unlikely. The detachments that they revealed indicate a pattern of "limit 1 dedicated transport to two FOC selections."


Which is actually a pretty major incentive to field 5 man TAC squads over 10 man squads, as if there weren't enough already.


I'm not complaining.

This actually suits my army perfectly.

Roughly half of my army is a back-field gunline.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 21:49:57


Post by: Vaktathi


BrianDavion wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
The 3 example Detachments... SUUUUUUUCK

It's basically... Everyone will be in Battalion unless you manage to squeeze enough in for Brigade.

I don't even see the point of them even existing.
Especially the Patrol Detachment, It's so bad it shouldn't exist.


my concern is will these detachments give a massive advantage to horde armies. it's a lot easier to plunk down 6 squads of IG vets then it is to plunk down 6 GKT squads
sssssort of?

Yeah, you can get 6 naked vet squads for 360 points, but after kit, mandatory transport, and whatnot you're in about the same range as the typical 5/6 man GK deep striking strike squad and in many cases only a ~20-30 or so points less than a 5man kitted GKT unit

Though it does leave aome minmax issues in play.

I think perhaps both points and detachment type will be something to be agreed upon as opposed to just points level. I could see aome extreme min maxing to milk heavy support slots and command points coming into play if points alone are used for balance.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:00:57


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Traditio wrote:
Luciferian wrote:I'll pardon you... for putting your personal preference and bias above your desire for good game design


Fair enough!

I will say this, though, and it's basically just me repeating what I've said several times before:

GW said that they're doing intensive play testing to ensure balance. I can only assume that at least one person used a ravenwing army.

I think that the majority of players are going to be happy with the result.

And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.




*Understand, I am not calling you or anyone else either on this thread or on this website a WAAC type. I am speaking very generally.



I'm personally looking forward to picking up a bunch of cheap space marine bikes , razorback and droppods on ebay when the waac space marines players move on to the next build... though that is going to b a lot of airbrushing time to repaint the "pro painted" ebay models that look like gak


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:09:32


Post by: Luciferian


 G00fySmiley wrote:


I'm personally looking forward to picking up a bunch of cheap space marine bikes , razorback and droppods on ebay when the waac space marines players move on to the next build... though that is going to b a lot of airbrushing time to repaint the "pro painted" ebay models that look like gak


NOS DV bike squads are already $15 a piece, can't get much cheaper than that.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:16:27


Post by: master of ordinance


This is, well, not all that fun by the looks of things. Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:21:47


Post by: Dakka Wolf


Going to miss Counter-Charge, RIP Wolf Claw Strike Force. Guess that's about it on the Space Wolves front.

I'm still not seeing any real benefit for a hoard like Green tide or swarming Nids, I do see a lot of benefit in MSU which is going to end poorly for assault armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
Luciferian wrote:I'll pardon you... for putting your personal preference and bias above your desire for good game design


Fair enough!

I will say this, though, and it's basically just me repeating what I've said several times before:

GW said that they're doing intensive play testing to ensure balance. I can only assume that at least one person used a ravenwing army.

I think that the majority of players are going to be happy with the result.

And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.




*Understand, I am not calling you or anyone else either on this thread or on this website a WAAC type. I am speaking very generally.



I'm personally looking forward to picking up a bunch of cheap space marine bikes , razorback and droppods on ebay when the waac space marines players move on to the next build... though that is going to b a lot of airbrushing time to repaint the "pro painted" ebay models that look like gak


Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:32:40


Post by: Nightlord1987


I've stuck with a CAD for all 3 of my armies so good riddance.

The only formations I've used are the Raptor Wing (for that guaranteed turn 2 flyers) and the CSM Cult of Destruction for Obliterator spam without a troops tax.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:36:19


Post by: Luciferian


 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?


I know some people buy them and fix them up if the price is right. As long as all of the colors are in the right places, you can make them look 100% better by washing the entire thing and going a quick drybrush or highlight. So you might be able to pick up some units for cheap and skip basecoating everything, if you wait for the right items.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:40:53


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 master of ordinance wrote:
Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


Whille, I'm not entirely sure about Command Points, are you sure you're using "Battalion" and "Brigade" properly?

If we look at the FOCs...
Spoiler:



A Battalion is 2-3 HQ & 3-6 Troops; and
a Brigade is 3-5 HQ, 6-12 Troops, 3-8 Elite, 3-5 Fast & 3-5 Heavy.

I'm absolutely certain I can field a Brigade (3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast & 3 Heavy) of Eldar or IG without batting an eye, but my Sisters would only be fielded as a Patrol.

Average game size is up in the air, but I think we can assume most games would be at the Battalion level, which looks like a regular FOC, except that it requires an extra HQ, but allows Flyers and a bunch more Elites.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:44:18


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Actually it requires an extra HQ and an extra troops.
Original FoC was just 1 HQ 2 Troops minimum.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:46:12


Post by: Dakka Wolf


 Luciferian wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?


I know some people buy them and fix them up if the price is right. As long as all of the colors are in the right places, you can make them look 100% better by washing the entire thing and going a quick drybrush or highlight. So you might be able to pick up some units for cheap and skip basecoating everything, if you wait for the right items.


That's probably about as close as it gets.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:46:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 master of ordinance wrote:
This is, well, not all that fun by the looks of things. Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


It is actually possible if you break everything up into MSU.
Its not points based but slot based, so you could theorhetical deploy the same models in two different detachments, you just need to tweak their squad sizes.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 22:58:27


Post by: Formerly Wu


 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?

I can't tell you who buys them, but I've sold a number of fully painted armies on eBay. If you sell them approximately at-cost instead of at the ridiculous "pro painted" markup, there are buyers.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 23:03:57


Post by: Marmatag


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
This is, well, not all that fun by the looks of things. Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


It is actually possible if you break everything up into MSU.
Its not points based but slot based, so you could theorhetical deploy the same models in two different detachments, you just need to tweak their squad sizes.


You will have to break up your squads with the new morale rules. The odds of getting a large squad wiped out completely is way too great.

If you have 10 tac marines in a squad and lose 5 in 1 go, you could easily find that 5 turned into a 9, because of morale. Meanwhile, if you combat squad them, your losses are minimized, you can split fire, etc.

Also, with the "troop tax" being increased for command points, I would imagine most people will run squads of 5.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 23:21:25


Post by: Charistoph


Luciferian wrote:My main issue with Assault Squads is that they count as fast attack even without jump packs or transports. If I could take them as troop choices over TAC marines I would do so in a heartbeat, even if they were merely foot slogging across the board or in a lowly Rhino. Otherwise, there are just too many choices for fast attack which are a better points expenditure. But we'll see if that changes.

Well, that's how they are now. They have gone through some changes over time. It used to be at one point that they came with Jump Packs, and you traded them for a discount on their ride. Templar Assault Marines couldn't even do that. They had to be run as Jump Infantry.

Who knows, we may end up seeing some variations of this.

Traditio wrote:Never mind. Stupid question. Of course not. Dedicated Transports are now their own FOC slot.

Back to being their old FOC Role. The slots were just never set up like this before.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/05 23:42:43


Post by: Vaktathi


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Formations, as they existed in 7E, do indeed appear to be gone.

No more "hey take 3 aspect warrior units you were gonna take anyway and theyre all magically BS5" or "get a dozen free vehicles" garbage and the like.


We haven't seen the Datasheets for Eldar or Space Marines. For all we know, the basic Eldar Aspect is going to be WS2+ BS2+ and the basic 5-SM unit includes a "free" Razorback...
potentially possible, but hopefully this won't be the case.

*fingerscrossed*


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 00:00:55


Post by: Traditio


Here's a thought:

Are we going to be able to take multiple detachments in 8th edition, perhaps of different factions?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 00:10:05


Post by: Galas


 Traditio wrote:
Here's a thought:

Are we going to be able to take multiple detachments in 8th edition, perhaps of different factions?


From the official Warhammer Community post, at the bottom:
Matched play actually has a few extra rules too, designed for competitive events, which organisers can choose to use when setting the rules for Battle-forged armies – limits on the number of separate Detachments is one example.

This is a confirmation that indeed we will be able to take multiple detachments.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 00:22:26


Post by: Zognob Gorgoff


 Galas wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
Here's a thought:

Are we going to be able to take multiple detachments in 8th edition, perhaps of different factions?


From the official Warhammer Community post, at the bottom:
Matched play actually has a few extra rules too, designed for competitive events, which organisers can choose to use when setting the rules for Battle-forged armies – limits on the number of separate Detachments is one example.

This is a confirmation that indeed we will be able to take multiple detachments.


What's interesting is that they stated each detachment/foc needed to share a keyword like imperium; so you could have a foc with Space wolve hq and troops with guard heavy support for instances without having to have the hq/trroop tax for allies.

In addition you would expect as they what it to remain fluff driven that partial alliances like elder and space marines will be a thing but as they can't share a detachment as they lack a keyword we will need to run two detachments to have them play together. This also means we still need an allies chart to show which factions are buddies to stop you having
a foc with say grey knights a foc with demons and a foc with tyranids all in the same army.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 00:46:47


Post by: Tamwulf


Ya know what I got out of that press release?

1). Replace all instances of the word "formation" with the word "detachment".

2). Detachments are going to work the same way they do in AoS.

The Sigmafication of 40K is almost complete! Next week: The Hero phase...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 00:49:50


Post by: JohnHwangDD


 Vaktathi wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Formations, as they existed in 7E, do indeed appear to be gone.

No more "hey take 3 aspect warrior units you were gonna take anyway and theyre all magically BS5" or "get a dozen free vehicles" garbage and the like.


We haven't seen the Datasheets for Eldar or Space Marines. For all we know, the basic Eldar Aspect is going to be WS2+ BS2+ and the basic 5-SM unit includes a "free" Razorback...
potentially possible, but hopefully this won't be the case.

*fingerscrossed*


Making the Aspects 2+/2+ wouldn't break anything, nor would inclusion of a Razorback. Assuming that they were costed appropriately...


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 01:10:04


Post by: Zognob Gorgoff


 Tamwulf wrote:
Ya know what I got out of that press release?

1). Replace all instances of the word "formation" with the word "detachment".

2). Detachments are going to work the same way they do in AoS.

The Sigmafication of 40K is almost complete! Next week: The Hero phase...


Well I'd have no issue with a hero phase, imo AoS plays fine. Glad to see some changes being brought to 40k. Played 40k since 4th and currently it is almost unplayable. Anyway detachments in 8th aren't formation from 7th or AoS, which has formations as we know them from 40k 7th. These should be familiar to every 40k player or has everyone forgotten. These are Force organisation charts. That is all.



Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 03:37:46


Post by: Lobokai


 Luciferian wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?


I know some people buy them and fix them up if the price is right. As long as all of the colors are in the right places, you can make them look 100% better by washing the entire thing and going a quick drybrush or highlight. So you might be able to pick up some units for cheap and skip basecoating everything, if you wait for the right items.


This is half of my 5 companies of Marines. I teach high school, part time grad school, have 3 kids who do rock climbing, Kung fu, Irish Dance, gymnastics, volleyball, swim team, musicals, I coach, and run a gaming club. My hobby time can't be working forces up from bare plastic (I own every list in my sig). My HH Iron hands I'm doing by myself and it's been three years and not everything is primed. Via eBay clean up everything else except my GK is streaming tournament play ready.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Orks aren't ready either... but btw I like the direction the detachments are headed. But I'm wondering if you can't take any of them twice? I'd have made that rule if I was them.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 06:49:22


Post by: Ankhalagon


Finaly!!!


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 06:54:34


Post by: tneva82


 commander dante wrote:
As long as there is a 3 LoW Detachment ill be happy
(So i can refield the Kytan-Trinity of Blood)


You can field it if there's 1 LOW detachment as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traditio wrote:
And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.





You realize if they did their playtesting right even your hated WAAC players list will still be viable and not trash...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 master of ordinance wrote:
This is, well, not all that fun by the looks of things. Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


Of course you are only looking at 3 out of 14 detachments...Plenty people will likely use choices from the remaining 11 as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
You will have to break up your squads with the new morale rules. The odds of getting a large squad wiped out completely is way too great.


Good for shooting, bad for h2h though.

And btw your comment about split fire could be totally off. So far nothing has said anything one way or other does rules follow AOS(every model selects target on it's own) or not.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 07:09:53


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Very few people can, or even own enough models too, deploy a Battalion within an average game, whilst few are ever going to be that elite that they only ever deploy a Scout force, so the vast majority will be using the Brigade list.
What do command points do?


Whille, I'm not entirely sure about Command Points, are you sure you're using "Battalion" and "Brigade" properly?

If we look at the FOCs...
Spoiler:



A Battalion is 2-3 HQ & 3-6 Troops; and
a Brigade is 3-5 HQ, 6-12 Troops, 3-8 Elite, 3-5 Fast & 3-5 Heavy.

I'm absolutely certain I can field a Brigade (3 HQ, 6 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast & 3 Heavy) of Eldar or IG without batting an eye, but my Sisters would only be fielded as a Patrol.

Average game size is up in the air, but I think we can assume most games would be at the Battalion level, which looks like a regular FOC, except that it requires an extra HQ, but allows Flyers and a bunch more Elites.


I'd agree with that, though I think I can field a Brigade of Tyranids at low point values. Depends if Mucolids stay in troops. I'm actually a little sad now. Running through my army in my head, I don't think I actually own much in the FA slot to qualify...hmm. I need to finish this house so I can devote my hobby money back to plastic and not drywall.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 07:13:58


Post by: Runic


Good riddance. Best change so far.

And who cares if stuff is imported from AoS. As a game, currently, it functions much better than 40K.

I guess only people who are stuck in what AoS used to be. And 40K is going to be more complex in the end anyway, as they have also stated.

The detachments also are nothing like formations, as they just give the same bonus in different amounts.

Ofcourse, everyone who can read knows this anyway.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 08:01:59


Post by: ERJAK


 Traditio wrote:
Luciferian wrote:I'll pardon you... for putting your personal preference and bias above your desire for good game design


Fair enough!

I will say this, though, and it's basically just me repeating what I've said several times before:

GW said that they're doing intensive play testing to ensure balance. I can only assume that at least one person used a ravenwing army.

I think that the majority of players are going to be happy with the result.

And I look forward to the weeping and wailing of the WAAC types* who realize that their net lists are suddenly trash tier...or, at the very least, simply mid-tier.




*Understand, I am not calling you or anyone else either on this thread or on this website a WAAC type. I am speaking very generally.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No. There's not gonna be any whining from 'WAAC types', or if there is it's mostly just because some are very loud. The people you accuse of being WAAC aren't attached to their lists, they're attached to power, and power will always exist. Finding the new power combo is the best part of the game for plenty of people and using that powercombo is the best part for plenty of others.

WHAT that power combo actually IS almost never matters. FAAC people get attached to their armies, WAAC players go with the flow.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 08:08:53


Post by: Earth127


There are always going to be differences in power.

The disparity is just ludicrously large right wich is the issue. An optimised list being 10-20% more powerfull in a dice based game is not an issue, 70-80% now that is an issue.

Messy formation and codex balance was a a huge contributing factor to that.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 08:17:23


Post by: ERJAK


Earth127 wrote:
There are always going to be differences in power.

The disparity is just ludicrously large right wich is the issue. An optimised list being 10-20% more powerfull in a dice based game is not an issue, 70-80% now that is an issue.

Messy formation and codex balance was a a huge contributing factor to that.


By the end it was conceivable that you could build a list that would never lose a single model against a sub-tournament level list even across multiple games. Which is why it needed to die and 8th is already awesome.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 08:33:29


Post by: Earth127


Well I thought saying a 100% was over the top but apparently not.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 08:46:58


Post by: Dakka Wolf


 Lobukia wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Who does buy paint jobs off ebay? I mean genuinely. Who actually buys them because they like the paint job?


I know some people buy them and fix them up if the price is right. As long as all of the colors are in the right places, you can make them look 100% better by washing the entire thing and going a quick drybrush or highlight. So you might be able to pick up some units for cheap and skip basecoating everything, if you wait for the right items.


This is half of my 5 companies of Marines. I teach high school, part time grad school, have 3 kids who do rock climbing, Kung fu, Irish Dance, gymnastics, volleyball, swim team, musicals, I coach, and run a gaming club. My hobby time can't be working forces up from bare plastic (I own every list in my sig). My HH Iron hands I'm doing by myself and it's been three years and not everything is primed. Via eBay clean up everything else except my GK is streaming tournament play ready.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Orks aren't ready either... but btw I like the direction the detachments are headed. But I'm wondering if you can't take any of them twice? I'd have made that rule if I was them.


Wow, that's a packed schedule. I'm impressed you find time for gaming at all.
I substitute High School History, do Kickboxing, work about ten hours a week in a resteraunt and have no family commitments, I still struggle to get games in.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 12:59:52


Post by: malamis


This would feel, to me, like GW are *pushing* MSU as standard practice. Since as I understand it the tournament playtesters and ITC writers chose to favor MSU over any alternative this would make sense if it is colouring the feedback they're getting.

That said; if Indie Characters can't join units any more, what exactly would be the *point* of large units, that isn't provided by a number of small units?

1. Template weapons are gone, so there's no benefit to grouping them together to maximise damage output
2. Tarpits are potentially more useful if they're split up if buffs are AOE and not joined to the unit for damage allocation
3. the whole accelerated play thing favors small units that don't have to be constantly checked and measured for coherency + movement issues

Am I missing the counterargument?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 13:12:53


Post by: Dakka Wolf


 malamis wrote:
This would feel, to me, like GW are *pushing* MSU as standard practice. Since as I understand it the tournament playtesters and ITC writers chose to favor MSU over any alternative this would make sense if it is colouring the feedback they're getting.

That said; if Indie Characters can't join units any more, what exactly would be the *point* of large units, that isn't provided by a number of small units?

1. Template weapons are gone, so there's no benefit to grouping them together to maximise damage output
2. Tarpits are potentially more useful if they're split up if buffs are AOE and not joined to the unit for damage allocation
3. the whole accelerated play thing favors small units that don't have to be constantly checked and measured for coherency + movement issues

Am I missing the counterargument?


There isn't one.
The horde army can't survive without a complete rescaling of the game. They're just too cumbersome to move about in an hour-long 1850 match and anything they can't kill walks right over them.
Barkstar was the closest thing to a successful horde recently and most people cursed as a Deathstar.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 13:19:45


Post by: BertBert


 malamis wrote:
This would feel, to me, like GW are *pushing* MSU as standard practice. Since as I understand it the tournament playtesters and ITC writers chose to favor MSU over any alternative this would make sense if it is colouring the feedback they're getting.

That said; if Indie Characters can't join units any more, what exactly would be the *point* of large units, that isn't provided by a number of small units?

1. Template weapons are gone, so there's no benefit to grouping them together to maximise damage output
2. Tarpits are potentially more useful if they're split up if buffs are AOE and not joined to the unit for damage allocation
3. the whole accelerated play thing favors small units that don't have to be constantly checked and measured for coherency + movement issues

Am I missing the counterargument?


In AoS some units gain bonuses when they exceed certain thresholds. I can see them doing a similar thing for 40k in order to make big units attractive or even viable. Considering the new morale phase, some LD bonuses for horde armies are pretty much necessary.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 13:24:39


Post by: malamis


BertBert wrote:
 malamis wrote:
This would feel, to me, like GW are *pushing* MSU as standard practice. Since as I understand it the tournament playtesters and ITC writers chose to favor MSU over any alternative this would make sense if it is colouring the feedback they're getting.

That said; if Indie Characters can't join units any more, what exactly would be the *point* of large units, that isn't provided by a number of small units?

1. Template weapons are gone, so there's no benefit to grouping them together to maximise damage output
2. Tarpits are potentially more useful if they're split up if buffs are AOE and not joined to the unit for damage allocation
3. the whole accelerated play thing favors small units that don't have to be constantly checked and measured for coherency + movement issues

Am I missing the counterargument?


In AoS some units gain bonuses when they exceed certain thresholds. I can see them doing a similar thing for 40k in order to make big units attractive or even viable. Considering the new morale phase, some LD bonuses for horde armies are pretty much necessary.


But is there anything actually desirable about making big units viable in the first place? If 50 ork boyz are in units of 10 and gain their horde bonuses from being with X inches of each other, why bother with a single unit of 50 at all?

If, say 10 is the maximum unit size as standard, suddenly the whole morale issue becomes "did you lose 70% of your unit? Roll low or just lose the unit" which isn't that big a deal.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 13:38:54


Post by: BertBert


 malamis wrote:
BertBert wrote:
 malamis wrote:
This would feel, to me, like GW are *pushing* MSU as standard practice. Since as I understand it the tournament playtesters and ITC writers chose to favor MSU over any alternative this would make sense if it is colouring the feedback they're getting.

That said; if Indie Characters can't join units any more, what exactly would be the *point* of large units, that isn't provided by a number of small units?

1. Template weapons are gone, so there's no benefit to grouping them together to maximise damage output
2. Tarpits are potentially more useful if they're split up if buffs are AOE and not joined to the unit for damage allocation
3. the whole accelerated play thing favors small units that don't have to be constantly checked and measured for coherency + movement issues

Am I missing the counterargument?


In AoS some units gain bonuses when they exceed certain thresholds. I can see them doing a similar thing for 40k in order to make big units attractive or even viable. Considering the new morale phase, some LD bonuses for horde armies are pretty much necessary.


But is there anything actually desirable about making big units viable in the first place? If 50 ork boyz are in units of 10 and gain their horde bonuses from being with X inches of each other, why bother with a single unit of 50 at all?

If, say 10 is the maximum unit size as standard, suddenly the whole morale issue becomes "did you lose 70% of your unit? Roll low or just lose the unit" which isn't that big a deal.



All of this depends on how the rules will turn out, of course. If this hypothetical horde bonus depends only on the number of models in close proximity and is not restricted to a single unit that needs to contain a certian amount of models, then yes, MSU would probably be the better choice.

I expect, however, that these bonuses will be provided to single units instead.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 13:51:00


Post by: tneva82


Lot depends on how viable h2h will be as in h2h horde will swamp over msu. Also other things could be. Command points will likely help horde.

Oh and 5 units of 10 close to each other don't get horde bonus in aos at least. It's one unit or no bonus


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 14:31:46


Post by: Danny slag


Damn formations were one of the most interesting things they've done to the game in a long time. They gave different fluffy ways to play armies and made various armies that aren't imperial make sense. The CAD style makes no sense for a lot of forces. They made army construction so much more interesting and varied.

They made 2 OP formations and people gak their pants over "formations are awful" just because 2 out of 50 were poorly written. That's like being so low IQ that you see an ugly car and determine automobiles are a horrible idea. Those types confused poorly balanced execution with a bad concept. Using that logic all miniature war gaming is awful because some 7th ed 40k armies were imbalanced and poorly written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and genestealer cult is going to be great without any of the things that made them cool. Can't wait to slowly walk up the board with them like an imperial army. This is a stupid change. Every army that was built around their detachment is fethed.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 15:14:34


Post by: Anpu42


I like the Patrol Detachment, it allows smaller games so much easier while throwing in a few interesting and not having to take two Troop Choices.

1 Company Command Squad
1 Veteran Squad
2 Valkyrie (Maybe)


This could represent a LRRP or Airborne Special Operations Mission.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 15:18:05


Post by: Freddy Kruger


Formation were interesting. In theory. Unfortunately, not just 2 formations were broken, several formations were broken to some extent, due to either ridiculous extra rules, the addition of hundreds of points of extra models for free or just down right spamming of incredibly powerful models, like riptides.

Formations would have been great big the power level was equal. But it wasn't. Some armies were left in the dust (like Orks) or supercharged to ridiculously high levels (like Space Marines). While imbalanced codexes were a problem, formations further pushed this imbalance.

Hopefully some resemblance of balance is restored, and people can go back to having fun, rather than min Max.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 15:33:09


Post by: Martel732


40K has always been about min-max.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 15:35:39


Post by: Danny slag


 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Formation were interesting. In theory. Unfortunately, not just 2 formations were broken, several formations were broken to some extent, due to either ridiculous extra rules, the addition of hundreds of points of extra models for free or just down right spamming of incredibly powerful models, like riptides.

Formations would have been great big the power level was equal. But it wasn't. Some armies were left in the dust (like Orks) or supercharged to ridiculously high levels (like Space Marines). While imbalanced codexes were a problem, formations further pushed this imbalance.

Hopefully some resemblance of balance is restored, and people can go back to having fun, rather than min Max.


So the solution to bad balance is to scrap the entire concept rather than fix the balance? There are armies that individual models stat lines are weaker, but their formations are what balanced them. Without that marines will be even more OP against other armies.

I'm also not looking forward to being told "your themed fluffy army is still playable!.....in unbound no points open play BS that no one wants to play."

Buying a few hundred in genestealer cult right before finding out they're fethed sucks. Yay weaker imperial guard without heavy weapons now.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 15:52:28


Post by: Kanluwen


 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Formation were interesting. In theory. Unfortunately, not just 2 formations were broken, several formations were broken to some extent, due to either ridiculous extra rules, the addition of hundreds of points of extra models for free or just down right spamming of incredibly powerful models, like riptides.

Very few detachments or formations allowed for "the addition of hundreds of points of extra models for free".
You had Gladius Detachment(which required 2 Battle Demi-Companies) and then one of the Great Companies from Curse of the Wulfen(I think it was Ragnar's Great Company that allowed for free Drop Pods).
War Convocation gave you free upgrades; but anyone familiar with the codices knows that's just affecting the few Skitarii units present.

And heck, there was even a balancing factor in play for the Riptides(and Ghostkeels). That Riptide Wing everyone liked to complain about? It couldn't be taken in any of the Tau Detachments; same with the Ghostkeel Wing.

Where on the other hand, an Eldar player could take Wraithknights as a Wraith Construct option--competing with such gems as Wraithlords.

Formations would have been great big the power level was equal. But it wasn't. Some armies were left in the dust (like Orks) or supercharged to ridiculously high levels (like Space Marines). While imbalanced codexes were a problem, formations further pushed this imbalance.

Hopefully some resemblance of balance is restored, and people can go back to having fun, rather than min Max.

Points are still in.

Min/max will still be around.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 16:00:18


Post by: Danny slag


Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 16:08:47


Post by: Luciferian


Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect

I somehow doubt that.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 16:33:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


So let's see what we got in terms of broken formations, or "broken" formations:
1. Canoptek Harvest
2. Gladius/Lions Blade (I'm counting this as one because it's the same bloody thing)
3. Aspect Host
4. Riptide Wing
5. War Convocation

To say Formations were broken is NOT a fair assessment and honestly just incorrect. They aren't going to be necessary hopefully with the better balance and multiple CAD's of different varieties. However, you guys ain't being honest with yourselves when you say Formations are broken. There were simply problem formations. Simple as that.

Can you really say that things like Bully Boyz, Judicator Battalion, Ironstriders, 1st Company Strike Force, and Bulwark Of Purity were issues in any sense? If your answer is yes, you're not being honest with yourself.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 17:53:16


Post by: Danny slag


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So let's see what we got in terms of broken formations, or "broken" formations:
1. Canoptek Harvest
2. Gladius/Lions Blade (I'm counting this as one because it's the same bloody thing)
3. Aspect Host
4. Riptide Wing
5. War Convocation

To say Formations were broken is NOT a fair assessment and honestly just incorrect. They aren't going to be necessary hopefully with the better balance and multiple CAD's of different varieties. However, you guys ain't being honest with yourselves when you say Formations are broken. There were simply problem formations. Simple as that.

Can you really say that things like Bully Boyz, Judicator Battalion, Ironstriders, 1st Company Strike Force, and Bulwark Of Purity were issues in any sense? If your answer is yes, you're not being honest with yourself.


This right here is spot on. Everyone saying formations are broken, when your car gets a flat tire do you proclaim cars dont work and set it on fire?

There were far far more balanced and interesting formations than there were OP ones.
There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 17:56:37


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect
Hahaha, no. Formations were a crutch that CSM depended upon just to stay valid because we had the oldest codex (not counting sisters) in the meta, and even then many of the formations were still either cruddy, had the Warpsmith tax, or even with formations were still just straight up bad (Thousand Sons sadly)


There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"
Many also use that as shorthand for special rules, either you got good rules with a good codex or you had to pray they really wanted you to be buffed to hell and back and took the formations in order just to give you a legup.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 17:59:43


Post by: tneva82


Danny slag wrote:
There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"


Free bonuses also bad.

Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect


They existed before, they can work without formations. They just need unit rules and point costs made working so they don't need crutches like formations which makes just balancing things harder.

If units aren't working on their own that's problem because...well there would be no point taking ravenwing WITHOUT formation which is stupid. If they are working on their own formation rules just make them too good for points giving extra rules not accounted in point cost.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 18:00:16


Post by: wuestenfux


This is the best of all messages about the new edition.
Otherwise, I'm sceptical. GW always tries to invent the wheel anew.
"Look our new rules are great." They definitely aren't. They are just different.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 18:40:20


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


tneva82 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"


Free bonuses also bad.

Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect


They existed before, they can work without formations. They just need unit rules and point costs made working so they don't need crutches like formations which makes just balancing things harder.

If units aren't working on their own that's problem because...well there would be no point taking ravenwing WITHOUT formation which is stupid. If they are working on their own formation rules just make them too good for points giving extra rules not accounted in point cost.

Everything had a free bonus though. The bonus with the CAD is that your Scatterbikes scored better than everyone else. The bonus with an Allied Detachment is that you pay a minimal troop tax to get the other 4 slots you need.

Free rules is not the only way to judge a free bonus. The free bonus will always exist until you make everyone follow the CAD and no exceptions. Quite frankly, that's dull as a 4th edition and beyond veteran.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 18:44:04


Post by: Danny slag


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect
Hahaha, no. Formations were a crutch that CSM depended upon just to stay valid because we had the oldest codex (not counting sisters) in the meta, and even then many of the formations were still either cruddy, had the Warpsmith tax, or even with formations were still just straight up bad (Thousand Sons sadly)


There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"
Many also use that as shorthand for special rules, either you got good rules with a good codex or you had to pray they really wanted you to be buffed to hell and back and took the formations in order just to give you a legup.


Explain to me how rules on a detachment are any different than rules on a unit.
This is disconnected logic that a lot of people say but I don't know if anyone stopped to think about how little sense that makes.
So if you get your special rule from your unit entry it's fine, but if it's from a unit of units entry it's heresy.
How is it any more "free" than the special rules you get elsewhere?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
There are literally only two formations that give free points and in every single post people proclaim "formations give free points, they're broken!"


Free bonuses also bad.

Danny slag wrote:
Formations added a lot of flavor to the game and to themed armies. Say goodbye to ravenwing, KDK, homonculous coven, every flavor of chaos marines, ect


They existed before, they can work without formations. They just need unit rules and point costs made working so they don't need crutches like formations which makes just balancing things harder.

If units aren't working on their own that's problem because...well there would be no point taking ravenwing WITHOUT formation which is stupid. If they are working on their own formation rules just make them too good for points giving extra rules not accounted in point cost.


Every bonus is a free bonus. Do you have to pay points per model for atsknf? How many points does combat squading cost? You're drawing an arbitrary line where none exists between rules you think are free and ones you think aren't. There's no difference only one you imagine.

And how exactly does fixing the balance of stats make a bike themed white scars army possible in a cad? How do genestealer cults work without cult insurrection?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 18:53:45


Post by: Vaktathi


Rules on a detachment often take no account of either unit or model count or unit type, and rules on a unit can be directly costed and attributed in a far more appropriate fashion and attributed directly where most appropriate. Even in places where there is very explicit unit type and count, free bonuses still are just bad game design, there's no trade-off for those gains.

Likewise, themed armies existed just fine before Formations. Ravenwing and themed Legion armies were played through many editions before Formations ever appeared. The idea that themed armies will die with no Formations is, well, ridiculous.

Formations were both bad and lazy game design, a marketing sales mechanism to push bundles to the lowest common denominator through free stuff and power creep under the guise of "theme", nothing more.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 18:59:40


Post by: ZebioLizard2



Explain to me how rules on a detachment are any different than rules on a unit.
This is disconnected logic that a lot of people say but I don't know if anyone stopped to think about how little sense that makes.
So if you get your special rule from your unit entry it's fine, but if it's from a unit of units entry it's heresy.
How is it any more "free" than the special rules you get elsewhere?

Because one is free and not tied to the unit in any way aside from the fact that the unit appears in the formation. It's not disconnected logic so much as one looking at the whole rather then at the specific benefits.

I see you didn't mention the CSM stuff in anyway however hmhm. Themed armies have survived long before formations and will continue to do so even without special benefits from formations. Did you think Deathwing and Ravenwing only existed once they added the formations?


How do genestealer cults work without cult insurrection?
How about by balancing genestealer cults at the base level rather then requiring a crutch. Seriously what sort of question is this?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:17:53


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Vaktathi wrote:
Rules on a detachment often take no account of either unit or model count or unit type, and rules on a unit can be directly costed and attributed in a far more appropriate fashion and attributed directly where most appropriate. Even in places where there is very explicit unit type and count, free bonuses still are just bad game design, there's no trade-off for those gains.

Likewise, themed armies existed just fine before Formations. Ravenwing and themed Legion armies were played through many editions before Formations ever appeared. The idea that themed armies will die with no Formations is, well, ridiculous.

Formations were both bad and lazy game design, a marketing sales mechanism to push bundles to the lowest common denominator through free stuff and power creep under the guise of "theme", nothing more.

I'm not saying themed armies are going to die and I'm fine with no formations whilst better balance can be achieved. However, in my post I am saying a grand total of FIVE formations were broken in any way, shape, or form.

They were not bad in 6th where you got one to the CAD. I think that's the way it should've stayed but I didn't care about taking multiples now.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:19:42


Post by: Danny slag


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Explain to me how rules on a detachment are any different than rules on a unit.
This is disconnected logic that a lot of people say but I don't know if anyone stopped to think about how little sense that makes.
So if you get your special rule from your unit entry it's fine, but if it's from a unit of units entry it's heresy.
How is it any more "free" than the special rules you get elsewhere?

Because one is free and not tied to the unit in any way aside from the fact that the unit appears in the formation. It's not disconnected logic so much as one looking at the whole rather then at the specific benefits.

I see you didn't mention the CSM stuff in anyway however hmhm. Themed armies have survived long before formations and will continue to do so even without special benefits from formations. Did you think Deathwing and Ravenwing only existed once they added the formations?


How do genestealer cults work without cult insurrection?
How about by balancing genestealer cults at the base level rather then requiring a crutch. Seriously what sort of question is this?


Do you like pretending those themed armies didn't require their own formations and supplements they were just called force org charts and army wide special rules if you used those force org charts? Because your point fails if we don't pretend those didn't exist.

Again you all are creating arbitrary lines in your heads that don't exist. If you had never played before formations you'd not think of them as "free bonuses" just like how you don't think of combat squading as a "free bonus" because it's been around so long.

As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle. I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch." No it's a cool and unique force, because things do exist outside of imperium armies and people like that, as hard as that is for you to grasp.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:20:49


Post by: Traditio


Danny Slag:

You are still going to be able to make customized, themed armies.

You just won't be able to auto-win because you fielded them.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:24:44


Post by: Danny slag


 Traditio wrote:
Danny Slag:

You are still going to be able to make customized, themed armies.

You just won't be able to auto-win because you fielded them.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] Those aren't synonyms and that's one formation. But like a large bulk of players you're stuck just talking bout one single formation.

How auto win is KDK, GSC, ravenwing, homonculis cults, etc?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:25:10


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Do you like pretending those themed armies didn't require their own formations and supplements they were just called force org charts and army wide special rules if you used those force org charts?
Things that once again came long after themed armies existed . I can certainly tell you started playing after 5th. Even back in 3.5 when Chaos had it's own themed forces that were basically "Alternate Force Org Charts" they had requirements and penalties for taking such... And never really provided free benefits because you still had to pay for things.

Because your point fails if we don't pretend those didn't exist.
Not even close, but keep trying.

If you had never played before formations you'd not think of them as "free bonuses" just like how you don't think of combat squading as a "free bonus" because it's been around so long.
This.. This isn't even a point.


How auto win is KDK, GSC, ravenwing, homonculis cults, etc?
Still didn't answer my questions before on this, like how I pointed out you mentioned Cult Insurrection is needed rather then just balancing, how CSM is just being bolstered up rather then needing balance.. So going to answer me?


As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle.


How do genestealer cults work without cult insurrection?
It seems like your answers don't agree with each other.

I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch."
What.. using a standard CAD is "playing like marines?"


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:28:01


Post by: Danny slag


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you like pretending those themed armies didn't require their own formations and supplements they were just called force org charts and army wide special rules if you used those force org charts?
Things that once again came long after themed armies existed . I can certainly tell you started playing after 5th. Even back in 3.5 when Chaos had it's own themed forces that were basically "Alternate Force Org Charts" they had requirements and penalties for taking such... And never really provided free benefits because you still had to pay for things.

Because your point fails if we don't pretend those didn't exist.
Not even close, but keep trying.

If you had never played before formations you'd not think of them as "free bonuses" just like how you don't think of combat squading as a "free bonus" because it's been around so long.
This.. This isn't even a point.


[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]. I know you're stuck in this limited mibdset that anything you feel is free is free and anything you don't feel as free isn't free.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:28:39


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Danny slag wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you like pretending those themed armies didn't require their own formations and supplements they were just called force org charts and army wide special rules if you used those force org charts?
Things that once again came long after themed armies existed . I can certainly tell you started playing after 5th. Even back in 3.5 when Chaos had it's own themed forces that were basically "Alternate Force Org Charts" they had requirements and penalties for taking such... And never really provided free benefits because you still had to pay for things.

Because your point fails if we don't pretend those didn't exist.
Not even close, but keep trying.

If you had never played before formations you'd not think of them as "free bonuses" just like how you don't think of combat squading as a "free bonus" because it's been around so long.
This.. This isn't even a point.


[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]. I know you're stuck in this limited mibdset that anything you feel is free is free and anything you don't feel as free isn't free.


Yeah I think we're done here.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:33:30


Post by: Danny slag


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Do you like pretending those themed armies didn't require their own formations and supplements they were just called force org charts and army wide special rules if you used those force org charts?
Things that once again came long after themed armies existed . I can certainly tell you started playing after 5th. Even back in 3.5 when Chaos had it's own themed forces that were basically "Alternate Force Org Charts" they had requirements and penalties for taking such... And never really provided free benefits because you still had to pay for things.

Because your point fails if we don't pretend those didn't exist.
Not even close, but keep trying.

If you had never played before formations you'd not think of them as "free bonuses" just like how you don't think of combat squading as a "free bonus" because it's been around so long.
This.. This isn't even a point.


How auto win is KDK, GSC, ravenwing, homonculis cults, etc?
Still didn't answer my questions before on this, like how I pointed out you mentioned Cult Insurrection is needed rather then just balancing, how CSM is just being bolstered up rather then needing balance.. So going to answer me?


As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle.


How do genestealer cults work without cult insurrection?
It seems like your answers don't agree with each other.

I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch."
What.. using a standard CAD is "playing like marines?"



The fact that you can't see the difference between a rule being part of an armies playstyle that doesn't work without it and a crutch shows [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]. So is deep-strike a crutch for militarum temptestus? you'd seem to be saying so, better get rid of deep-strike for armies that fluff wise are about fast insertion, it's a crutch. while we're at it, get rid of drop pods, those are a crutch for marines, not a playstyle choice, totally a crutch.
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:36:16


Post by: tneva82


Danny slag wrote:
As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle. I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch." No it's a cool and unique force, because things do exist outside of imperium armies and people like that, as hard as that is for you to grasp.


So howabout giving those abilities to units appropriately costed? This way you can have same units as before. But imagine this: You aren't limited to using them in their formation! You can actually do something more interesting with different armies looking different as they aren't limited to just same build.

If they are so dependant on their formation benefits then that just tells the unit rules suck and need a crutch. Howabout if you try to field those units without formation? Yes that's right they will suck then...Which just shows unit rules are badly designed.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:37:48


Post by: ZebioLizard2


You may want to review the forum rules.



The fact that you can't see the difference between a rule being part of an armies playstyle that doesn't work without it and a crutch shows you're obviously downs. So is deep-strike a crutch for militarum temptestus? you'd seem to be saying so, better get rid of deep-strike for armies that fluff wise are about fast insertion, it's a crutch. while we're at it, get rid of drop pods, those are a crutch for marines, not a playstyle choice, totally a crutch.
your logic is garbage.


Drop pods are paid for, MT pay for them within the unit rules or armywide special rules.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:38:48


Post by: Vaktathi


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Rules on a detachment often take no account of either unit or model count or unit type, and rules on a unit can be directly costed and attributed in a far more appropriate fashion and attributed directly where most appropriate. Even in places where there is very explicit unit type and count, free bonuses still are just bad game design, there's no trade-off for those gains.

Likewise, themed armies existed just fine before Formations. Ravenwing and themed Legion armies were played through many editions before Formations ever appeared. The idea that themed armies will die with no Formations is, well, ridiculous.

Formations were both bad and lazy game design, a marketing sales mechanism to push bundles to the lowest common denominator through free stuff and power creep under the guise of "theme", nothing more.

I'm not saying themed armies are going to die and I'm fine with no formations whilst better balance can be achieved. However, in my post I am saying a grand total of FIVE formations were broken in any way, shape, or form.
Hrm, I would argue that we could add more to that list (Skyhammer, Decurion (seriously...when was the last time you saw a non-Decurion Necron army?), Librarian conclave, etc.)

Ultimately however, the "buy X, get free Y", coupled with the issues of multiple detachments and allies, unintended synergies, etc, really just makes the entire fundamental concept way uglier than it's worth. That's really the big issue.


They were not bad in 6th where you got one to the CAD. I think that's the way it should've stayed but I didn't care about taking multiples now.
IIRC only one formation actually came out in 6th, and very late in 6th, just six months or so before 7E, the Tau firebase cadre thing if I'm not mistaken (I could be, if so, feel free to correct me). Even that was an issue, getting a number of special rules while paying nothing for them and getting access to extra Riptides and Broadsides (essentially offering addiitonal HS/FA slots) over opponents that didn't have that option.





Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:41:47


Post by: Danny slag


tneva82 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle. I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch." No it's a cool and unique force, because things do exist outside of imperium armies and people like that, as hard as that is for you to grasp.


So howabout giving those abilities to units appropriately costed? This way you can have same units as before. But imagine this: You aren't limited to using them in their formation! You can actually do something more interesting with different armies looking different as they aren't limited to just same build.


that's a valid question.

But the problem there is there's now downside, so if you have to give every unit every possible rule that might make it work for a different playstyle, that throws balance totally off.

With formations in order to unlock certain themes you are also restricted in what you can take.

I'll use the GSC analogy.

You could play a horde infantry army with the brood cycle, the rules for that formation facilitate that as do the unit choices.
If you want more of a mechanized army you can use the cavilcade for bonuses to vehicles but have to take transports for your trooops.

If we instead gave all of those units all those rules by default, you'd be giving a huge pile of special rules to those units. Every GSO unit would have furious rage, fnp, vehicles all get outflank, ect ect ect.

So the formations are a more balanced was to allow for themed armies than giving every unit every rule they may or may need to play the various themes.on? Yes that's right they will suck then...Which just shows unit rules are badly designed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You may want to review the forum rules.



The fact that you can't see the difference between a rule being part of an armies playstyle that doesn't work without it and a crutch shows you're obviously downs. So is deep-strike a crutch for militarum temptestus? you'd seem to be saying so, better get rid of deep-strike for armies that fluff wise are about fast insertion, it's a crutch. while we're at it, get rid of drop pods, those are a crutch for marines, not a playstyle choice, totally a crutch.
your logic is garbage.


Drop pods are paid for, MT pay for them within the unit rules or armywide special rules.


it's a crutch. everything is a crutch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Rules on a detachment often take no account of either unit or model count or unit type, and rules on a unit can be directly costed and attributed in a far more appropriate fashion and attributed directly where most appropriate. Even in places where there is very explicit unit type and count, free bonuses still are just bad game design, there's no trade-off for those gains.

Likewise, themed armies existed just fine before Formations. Ravenwing and themed Legion armies were played through many editions before Formations ever appeared. The idea that themed armies will die with no Formations is, well, ridiculous.

Formations were both bad and lazy game design, a marketing sales mechanism to push bundles to the lowest common denominator through free stuff and power creep under the guise of "theme", nothing more.

I'm not saying themed armies are going to die and I'm fine with no formations whilst better balance can be achieved. However, in my post I am saying a grand total of FIVE formations were broken in any way, shape, or form.
Hrm, I would argue that we could add more to that list (Skyhammer, Decurion (seriously...when was the last time you saw a non-Decurion Necron army?), Librarian conclave, etc.)

Ultimately however, the "buy X, get free Y", coupled with the issues of multiple detachments and allies, unintended synergies, etc, really just makes the entire fundamental concept way uglier than it's worth. That's really the big issue.


They were not bad in 6th where you got one to the CAD. I think that's the way it should've stayed but I didn't care about taking multiples now.
IIRC only one formation actually came out in 6th, and very late in 6th, just six months or so before 7E, the Tau firebase cadre thing if I'm not mistaken (I could be, if so, feel free to correct me). Even that was an issue, getting a number of special rules while paying nothing for them and getting access to extra Riptides and Broadsides (essentially offering addiitonal HS/FA slots) over opponents that didn't have that option.





The allies are an issue, as is being able to confer special rules to others via independent characters. But in every formation discussion it seems that 99% of what's listed as issues with formations are actually issues with other things in the game and instead of addressing those or fixing formations, which is a cool feature, the answer is to blame formations and throw out the whole concept instead of fixing it.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:45:56


Post by: Vaktathi


Danny slag wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Danny slag wrote:
As for GSC. Cult insurrection isn't a crutch its a way to allow a different playstyle. I don't want every army to be a different color of space marines, b cause if they don't play like marines it's "a crutch." No it's a cool and unique force, because things do exist outside of imperium armies and people like that, as hard as that is for you to grasp.


So howabout giving those abilities to units appropriately costed? This way you can have same units as before. But imagine this: You aren't limited to using them in their formation! You can actually do something more interesting with different armies looking different as they aren't limited to just same build.


that's a valid question.

But the problem there is there's now downside, so if you have to give every unit every possible rule that might make it work for a different playstyle, that throws balance totally off.

With formations in order to unlock certain themes you are also restricted in what you can take.

I'll use the GSC analogy.

You could play a horde infantry army with the brood cycle, the rules for that formation facilitate that as do the unit choices.
If you want more of a mechanized army you can use the cavilcade for bonuses to vehicles but have to take transports for your trooops.

If we instead gave all of those units all those rules by default, you'd be giving a huge pile of special rules to those units. Every GSO unit would have furious rage, fnp, vehicles all get outflank, ect ect ect.


So the formations are a more balanced was to allow for themed armies than giving every unit every rule they may or may need to play the various themes.on? Yes that's right they will suck then...Which just shows unit rules are badly designed.
Or you can just make those items conditional upgrades or distinct unit types. Not like both of those things haven't been done before, and without needing to involve an extra layer of army construction, and you can properly and directly cost those abilities then too rather than just giving them away for free.


Danny slag wrote:

The allies are an issue, as is being able to confer special rules to others via independent characters. But in every formation discussion it seems that 99% of what's listed as issues with formations are actually issues with other things in the game and instead of addressing those or fixing formations, which is a cool feature, the answer is to blame formations and throw out the whole concept instead of fixing it.
If I may ask, what, in my post there, was actually an issue with other things in the game instead of being an issue with formations? Extra unit allowance not available to other armies? Abilities that are not paid for?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 19:53:56


Post by: Danny slag


 Vaktathi wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

The allies are an issue, as is being able to confer special rules to others via independent characters. But in every formation discussion it seems that 99% of what's listed as issues with formations are actually issues with other things in the game and instead of addressing those or fixing formations, which is a cool feature, the answer is to blame formations and throw out the whole concept instead of fixing it.
If I may ask, what, in my post there, was actually an issue with other things in the game instead of being an issue with formations? Extra unit allowance not available to other armies? Abilities that are not paid for?


when you referenced unintended synergies as the issue with formations. That in my opinion doesn't come from formations, that comes from the awful allies matrix making cheesy combinations possible. Those unintended synergies are almost never intra-army, they're caused when you ally.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 20:07:17


Post by: Vaktathi


Danny slag wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

The allies are an issue, as is being able to confer special rules to others via independent characters. But in every formation discussion it seems that 99% of what's listed as issues with formations are actually issues with other things in the game and instead of addressing those or fixing formations, which is a cool feature, the answer is to blame formations and throw out the whole concept instead of fixing it.
If I may ask, what, in my post there, was actually an issue with other things in the game instead of being an issue with formations? Extra unit allowance not available to other armies? Abilities that are not paid for?


when you referenced unintended synergies as the issue with formations. That in my opinion doesn't come from formations, that comes from the awful allies matrix making cheesy combinations possible. Those unintended synergies are almost never intra-army, they're caused when you ally.
Ok, in some ways I could accept that, though the nature of Formations not being complete armies in many/most instances and the resulting need for multiple formations to make an army can result in issues as there are instances where intra-army problems result as well, such as the Decurion with the Canoptek Harvest for example.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 21:06:26


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Rules on a detachment often take no account of either unit or model count or unit type, and rules on a unit can be directly costed and attributed in a far more appropriate fashion and attributed directly where most appropriate. Even in places where there is very explicit unit type and count, free bonuses still are just bad game design, there's no trade-off for those gains.

Likewise, themed armies existed just fine before Formations. Ravenwing and themed Legion armies were played through many editions before Formations ever appeared. The idea that themed armies will die with no Formations is, well, ridiculous.

Formations were both bad and lazy game design, a marketing sales mechanism to push bundles to the lowest common denominator through free stuff and power creep under the guise of "theme", nothing more.

I'm not saying themed armies are going to die and I'm fine with no formations whilst better balance can be achieved. However, in my post I am saying a grand total of FIVE formations were broken in any way, shape, or form.
Hrm, I would argue that we could add more to that list (Skyhammer, Decurion (seriously...when was the last time you saw a non-Decurion Necron army?), Librarian conclave, etc.)

Ultimately however, the "buy X, get free Y", coupled with the issues of multiple detachments and allies, unintended synergies, etc, really just makes the entire fundamental concept way uglier than it's worth. That's really the big issue.


They were not bad in 6th where you got one to the CAD. I think that's the way it should've stayed but I didn't care about taking multiples now.
IIRC only one formation actually came out in 6th, and very late in 6th, just six months or so before 7E, the Tau firebase cadre thing if I'm not mistaken (I could be, if so, feel free to correct me). Even that was an issue, getting a number of special rules while paying nothing for them and getting access to extra Riptides and Broadsides (essentially offering addiitonal HS/FA slots) over opponents that didn't have that option.




1. Skyhammer isn't broken if you learn how to do a mild amount of Null Deployment. It's definitely got some bonkers benefits, but some of them ultimately fixes one of the issues everyone has with those units (stupidly limited mobility and tons of crap range weapons, and Assault Marines not being just bad Vanguard).
You also see non-Decurion armies for Necrons for variants of Lychstars/Wraithstars and then Sentrystars. In terms of a regular army, when your offensive output is actually scarce (anyone who plays Necrons can tell you how badly Gauss scales as an AT weapon, but don't tell anyone else that), the losing of OS for Relentless and the improved FNP is worth it at times. Otherwise, some people rather just pay the minimal troop tax to get the tools they want for their deathstars and get the improved FNP from a Cryptek. You'll see a small variety with the winning lists (not that there's too many now. Wonder why that is...)
Librarius Conclave isn't even really used for its benefit. It's used to get Librarians without any taxes (but I'm not a fan of formations with just one type of unit out of principle as that doesn't show synergy of different units working together). That's ultimately its downfall, but with the FAQ I didn't see anyone complaining.
I also know you have an issue with the Buy X Get Y out of principle (and it's a mindset I understand), it makes sense to have. The main issue comes from that you can take any number of them at the moment, which makes them less special. It's one thing to have Gorepack in a 6th edition mindset, but it's another thing when you can just take multiple Gorepacks and wonder why you'd ever bother with the regular Bikers and Fleshhounds in the first place.

That's my take on it. Formations didn't become special and instead became a norm.

2. As far as I can remember , the MT ones existed when their codex (if you can call it that) came out and we also had the Helbrute ones I believe. My memory is pretty fuzzy on that though.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/06 23:30:14


Post by: niv-mizzet


No cost formations were a terrible mechanic.

Either you have a unit that is balanced, and then give it extra stuff and remove typical detachment taxes making it broken.

Or you have a unit that is trash, and you add just the right stuff to make it balanced. Which means the unit isn't playable outside the formation.

There is no other possible result without making the formations cost something.

And then they're unevenly distributed across the factions, and have VERY different power levels of upgrades, and you get 90% of what's wrong with 7e.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/07 01:19:58


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 niv-mizzet wrote:
No cost formations were a terrible mechanic.

Either you have a unit that is balanced, and then give it extra stuff and remove typical detachment taxes making it broken.

Or you have a unit that is trash, and you add just the right stuff to make it balanced. Which means the unit isn't playable outside the formation.

There is no other possible result without making the formations cost something.

And then they're unevenly distributed across the factions, and have VERY different power levels of upgrades, and you get 90% of what's wrong with 7e.

And almost nobody took the cost formations in Apocalypse. I remember when it first came out and I thought to myself how in almost every situation I was just better off taking more models.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/09 13:18:02


Post by: DoomMouse


I think formations were largely a good thing. The problem with them was that there was no way to redesign or update a formation once it was released. Most of the formations GW released worked more-or-less as intended, to reward players with special rules for taking fluffy combos of units. The problem comes when a rules writer badly misjudged the power of a formation - the single worst example being riptide wing in my book. This formation could now let players spam a powerful unit for no 'tax units' and even powerfully rewarded them for doing so. As they never updated their supplements, they couldn't retcon the formation or tone it down. This led to an ever-increasing power spiral as they struggled to give each race more and more powerful tools to counter the other races cheese, and layers upon layers of special rules develop. until certain factions are literally ignoring the normal game turn rules (Ynari). The only way to put some proper brakes on this was to rescind all formations at once and try and make a newer, more balanced, version of them. I'm very pleased that they did this personally.

In short, I beleive the whole 'formations' system was only as good as its weakest links. The weakest links being formations that are obviously stronger than the general power curve and make everything else obselete (ynari, riptde wing, gladius, war convo etc.)

I think the crazy train will gradually start again, however. They will release new army books aimed to have just *slightly* stronger rules to encourage sales. I'm fine with this provided everything maintains some semblence of viability. I just hope they don't go to crazy with shiny new rules too quickly as it will break the matched-play game for everything else, just like it did in seventh.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/09 17:50:34


Post by: JohnHwangDD


I think the formations were largely awful: Overly rigid, stifling creativity. Terrible balance, overly dominant or punishingly unplayable.

Apocalypse pre-formations were better, with a narrower, better defined set of benefits, at a token cost.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/09 19:31:35


Post by: master of ordinance


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think the formations were largely awful: Overly rigid, stifling creativity. Terrible balance, overly dominant or punishingly unplayable.

Apocalypse pre-formations were better, with a narrower, better defined set of benefits, at a token cost.

Quoted for the truth


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 02:23:53


Post by: Ankhalagon


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think the formations were largely awful: Overly rigid, stifling creativity. Terrible balance, overly dominant or punishingly unplayable.

Apocalypse pre-formations were better, with a narrower, better defined set of benefits, at a token cost.

Its sad, but yeah. I agree.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 03:34:42


Post by: CadianGateTroll


No Formations? Well then how will GW price gouge their immbecile customers. How is GW going to make bank when they cant make up some rules that favor certain models to sell at astronomical prices. Like if they want to sell boat loads of razorbacks and drop pods and marines by exploiting their customers desperate need to power game hence the Gladius formation?

How ever will GW exploit their unbalanced rules to sell more models?

Is GW going to just let people buy what they want and play what they want? I dont think so!

These command points will urge competitive collectors to buy more of the same junk because its so broken and powerful.

Relax everyone, its still pay to win.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 06:43:08


Post by: ERJAK


 CadianGateTroll wrote:
No Formations? Well then how will GW price gouge their immbecile customers. How is GW going to make bank when they cant make up some rules that favor certain models to sell at astronomical prices. Like if they want to sell boat loads of razorbacks and drop pods and marines by exploiting their customers desperate need to power game hence the Gladius formation?

How ever will GW exploit their unbalanced rules to sell more models?

Is GW going to just let people buy what they want and play what they want? I dont think so!

These command points will urge competitive collectors to buy more of the same junk because its so broken and powerful.

Relax everyone, its still pay to win.


Show us on the doll where GW touched you.


And are you SURE you weren't leading them on?


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 11:12:34


Post by: corpuschain


I got excited at the idea of a FoC that allows more than 2 HQs. Now that is fun!


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 13:24:47


Post by: Grand.Master.Raziel


I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with the idea of formations. If GW had stuck to incentivizing army composition that represented the typical fighting forces of their factions, no one would be complaining about them.

Where GW dropped the ball is in formations like the Riptide Wing and the Librarius Conclave, where the player could just drop a bunch of power into their lists without any kind of drawback.

I"m not necessarily sorry to see formations go, but I'm reserving judgment till I see 8th in it's entirety. For all the hate the Gladius gets, before it came about a SM army comprised of largely Tac, Dev, and Assault Squads would never have been competitive in tournament play. Gladius brought actually faction-thematically-fluffy army lists to the tournament, and that is not all bad.


Formations are Gone! @ 2017/05/10 14:19:40


Post by: CadianGateTroll


ERJAK wrote:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
No Formations? Well then how will GW price gouge their immbecile customers. How is GW going to make bank when they cant make up some rules that favor certain models to sell at astronomical prices. Like if they want to sell boat loads of razorbacks and drop pods and marines by exploiting their customers desperate need to power game hence the Gladius formation?

How ever will GW exploit their unbalanced rules to sell more models?

Is GW going to just let people buy what they want and play what they want? I dont think so!

These command points will urge competitive collectors to buy more of the same junk because its so broken and powerful.

Relax everyone, its still pay to win.


Show us on the doll where GW touched you.


And are you SURE you weren't leading them on?


They put their hands down my pants. They reached deep inside the moist folds of my...wallet...and their dirty fingers touched my...credit card... And i told them to stop but they kept swiping it up and down until the...receipt discharged out of the register.

When the traumatic experience was over, the clerk said, "Thank you! Come again"