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New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:20:32


Post by: Naaris


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/

TL/DR

Infantry models can shoot at different targets
wound chart released


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:26:49


Post by: nordsturmking


I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:31:35


Post by: Deadshot


Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:32:09


Post by: secretForge


Agreed, the split fire thing is nice (although yet another buff to shooting), but wont really effect much more than a few imperial units.

The to wound chart is huge, and really reduces the variance in dice a lot (assuming similar T and S values as now, things like T5 will be wounded on a 3+ by lascannons. and unless things end up having very high tougnesses available, ST 5-7 weaponry is going to be fairly effective against almost all current toughness ranges.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:32:50


Post by: Slipspace


It looks like Bolters will wound a lot of things on 5+ now, assuming there's some consistency in the conversion between AV and Toughness for vehicles.

I think this change will be one of the major things that helps infantry in this edition. It will be much rarer to wound on 2+ now. Also, it potentially allows weapons with mid-range Strength values like Heavy Bolters to be more useful since there's not the cut-off at S6 for wounding T4 models on a 2+ any more.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:36:34


Post by: AnomanderRake


Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:48:01


Post by: Lord Xcapobl


At the danger of a storm of excrements starting to fly... "Mesa liken this'em".



No, really. The fact that 'split fire' seems to come standard now, allowing you to use the most appropriate weapon at the most suitable target, broadens the smile on my face to the size of the smile on a Great Unclean One. A relatively simple approach of five options to allow anything to hurt everything helps too.



New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:50:14


Post by: Jbz`


This might have a rather interesting effect on army composition.
Instead of shoving all a unit's AT weapons in one unit so they could all fire at the target in the hopes to destroy it (but at the risk of losing all of your AT weapons at once)
Now AT weapons will likely be split up in multiple squads.
(With the exceptions of the short range melta squads obviously)

Also of note Strength 6 will be worse off against T 4 (Scatter Bikes getting another slight bopping with the nerf bat)
And Str 3 will be better against T 5 (Space marine bikes will have to be twice as worried about lasguns/autoguns)


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:54:06


Post by: Tiberius501


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.


I don't think aiming at different targets will slow it down much. It doesn't in AoS. Most of the time you aim for the same unit anyway, sometimes you ain a weapon at someone else if it's better suited for them. Basically it just makes mixed Units more useful. Gone are the days where a guardsman Squad have to sit around as their lascannon shoots at a tank.
I like it personally.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:56:31


Post by: Luciferian


Jbz` wrote:
This might have a rather interesting effect on army composition.
Instead of shoving all a unit's AT weapons in one unit so they could all fire at the target in the hopes to destroy it (but at the risk of losing all of your AT weapons at once)
Now AT weapons will likely be split up in multiple squads.
(With the exceptions of the short range melta squads obviously)



All my AT weapons are meltas anyway, but it still seems situational to me. For infantry squads who might be hunkered down on an objective instead of racing around the table to hunt down targets, mixed weapons might be best. For anything you want to be able to apply to a specific task you'll still want to take one type of weapon, obviously.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 14:57:35


Post by: jade_angel


nordsturmking wrote:
I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.


Still needs about 110 shots to grease a Dread, assuming it doesn't have any other durability mechanics (regeneration, save-after-the-save, etc). You'll be wanting that meltagun, still.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:01:59


Post by: Carnage43


Wow, that To-wound chart change is.....huge. Possibly the biggest change in we've seen yet?

Off-hand; (assuming no major stat changes)

Bolters doubled in effectiveness against T6-T7
Lasguns doubled against T5.

T4 to T5 bump does nothing against S3.
T5 to T6 to T7 bump does nothing against S4. Yes sir, your Talos/Hive tyrant/Carnifex/Bloodthirster/T7 creature is as hard to wound as a space marine bike when using bolters.
S6 and S7 vs T4 is a 3+ now, a nerf to scat lasers and other mid-range shooty stuff that spams volley fire power.
Lascannons need a 3+ to wound bikes, most monstrous creatures, the humble T7 dreadnaught, and even the Gorkanaught at T8.

What I hope this means is that we see a much larger variance in toughness values come out. Monstrous creatures ranging from T5-T10, vehicles from T5-T10...etc. With the changes to the wound chart, I mean, why not?

This will require a complete re-think of the entire weapon and toughness system on my part......damn.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:06:29


Post by: jreilly89


This sounds so freaking great!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:07:44


Post by: Pancakey


Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:10:15


Post by: ArmyC


The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:10:34


Post by: Luciferian


Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:15:02


Post by: ArmyC


Wait, is this melee too?


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:17:31


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Tiberius501 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Oh my god. They've taken the 10x10 chart that people have been whining about for as long as time and written it out in shortform the way it should have been done from the beginning.

HUZZAH. Praise editing.

Not as sure about splitting squads' firepower, it seems like a road to excessive bookkeeping/confusion if you're using more than about three squads (sort of like the game slowdown resulting from the "move everyone but the guy with the heavy weapon" rule). Makes the existence of the giant FOCs that require twenty-odd different units to play even more confusing.


I don't think aiming at different targets will slow it down much. It doesn't in AoS. Most of the time you aim for the same unit anyway, sometimes you ain a weapon at someone else if it's better suited for them. Basically it just makes mixed Units more useful. Gone are the days where a guardsman Squad have to sit around as their lascannon shoots at a tank.
I like it personally.


Sort of? AoS has almost no mixed-weapon units and even then it doesn't scale very well into the size of the giant FOCs (the lists I've played at 2,000pts are 10-12-ish independent units and still seem annoyingly clunky by comparison to equivalently-sized armies in other games).

That said I don't think it'll cause more slowdown than gets saved by 4e/AoS-style wound allocation, if they stick to that, so hopefully it won't be much of an issue.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:20:18


Post by: Unusual Suspect


 ArmyC wrote:
Wait, is this melee too?


Almost certainly, yes.

SvT never differentiated between shooting and melee before, so why would it start doing so now?


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:24:37


Post by: Pancakey


 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:25:29


Post by: Mr Morden


 ArmyC wrote:
The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.


Like the Guard and Sisters - Boltguns and Pulse rifles now only wound Eldar on a 3+.

We know already that some cover only works for some units - so trenches might be Infantry only or similar...


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:32:36


Post by: jade_angel


 Mr Morden wrote:


Like the Guard and Sisters - Boltguns and Pulse rifles now only wound Eldar on a 3+.



You mean people might QQ less about pulse rifles? Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe!

Also, Sisters don't get mercilessly smeared by S5? I'll take it.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:35:33


Post by: AnomanderRake


Pancakey wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!


Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:41:07


Post by: secretForge


 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Actually its closer to 110 to kill a dread with this wound table. 2/3 to hit, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 failed saves and 8 wounds.
So if they need to a tac squad have a decent chance to down a half health dread by shooting and then charging it (don't know what rapid fire restrictions will be on charging, but for the sake of this argument Im assuming that they can).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to note, is that this likely means that there wont be a restriction on who you can charged based upon what you shot at.
Or at the very least it wont be be very difficult to fire a pistol at your charge target while focusing fire somewhere else.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:53:43


Post by: Tiberius501


Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 15:54:28


Post by: Luciferian


secretForge wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Actually its closer to 110 to kill a dread with this wound table. 2/3 to hit, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 failed saves and 8 wounds.
So if they need to a tac squad have a decent chance to down a half health dread by shooting and then charging it (don't know what rapid fire restrictions will be on charging, but for the sake of this argument Im assuming that they can).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to note, is that this likely means that there wont be a restriction on who you can charged based upon what you shot at.
Or at the very least it wont be be very difficult to fire a pistol at your charge target while focusing fire somewhere else.


Yeah you're right I worked it out after seeing the new table and it's 108.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:04:25


Post by: Imateria


 ArmyC wrote:
The VERY interesting thing that wasn't explained was that infantry can make better use of cover. If infantry can gain cover from area terrain but bikes and above have to be behind something, that would be huge.

Screws my Eldar though. Not worried about nerfing my S6 but Eldar have very limited ability to multitask. Very few special weapons available. Leaders have them and maybe that is a bonus since they will all be able to split fire.

I wouldn't worry about this, Craftworld and Dark Eldar have always been more about specialisation anyway, it's just that mid strength, high rate of fire weapons have become annoying jack of all trades weapons in 7th.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:05:51


Post by: Talamare


 Tiberius501 wrote:
Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff


Autocannons are in an interesting place especially

being 4+ against Dreads is cool
3+ against Heavy Infantry and Bikers
2+ against Light Infantry

Sadly 5+ against Mork, but I doubt you would even use for that purpose before

Oh wait, what about S8 Missiles?!
4+ vs Heavy Vehicles
3+ vs Dread
3+ vs Bikers and such
2+ vs Heavy Infantry!!!

(Heavy = T4, Light = T3)

If Missiles get d6 damage, I can see them seeing a rise in popularity.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:16:56


Post by: Tiberius501


 Talamare wrote:
 Tiberius501 wrote:
Wow, Lasguns will be wounding T5 targets on 5+ now and T6 or above on 6+. Guard got a huge buff


Autocannons are in an interesting place especially

being 4+ against Dreads is cool
3+ against Heavy Infantry and Bikers
2+ against Light Infantry

Sadly 5+ against Mork, but I doubt you would even use for that purpose before

Oh wait, what about S8 Missiles?!
4+ vs Heavy Vehicles
3+ vs Dread
3+ vs Bikers and such
2+ vs Heavy Infantry!!!

(Heavy = T4, Light = T3)

If Missiles get d6 damage, I can see them seeing a rise in popularity.


That's awesome as!
Pure speculation of course, but that'd be amazing. Missiles might only do d3 damage, but that's still awesome. I also wander if Autocannons will have a damage value, that could make them pretty devastating.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:19:03


Post by: Breng77


I cannot see missiles getting D6 damage, I expect them to be 2 modes as now one doing S8 D3 wounds, the other S4 and d3 hits or something similar. It is also possible they will not do extra wounds at all. As a general rule S got a little worse against lower toughnesses, but better against higher toughnesses. For instance a S6 gun used to wound T4 on a 2+, but now does so at a 3+. But used to wound T8 on a 6+ but now does it on a 5+. Depending on the common toughness values in the new edition Things like bolters got a decent buff in wounding high T models


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:27:46


Post by: Ratius


Im happy so far with these changes!


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:37:15


Post by: Klowny


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!


Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!


and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:46:55


Post by: Luciferian


 Klowny wrote:


and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.


Sorry to disappoint you but I wouldn't take SWA as an indication of anything that will be coming in 8th.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:50:23


Post by: Galef


Assuming Scatter lasers stay S6, this means they no longer wound T4 Marines on 2+, but rather 3+.
I know quite a few here on Dakka will be quite pleased with this change.

As an Eldar player, I am happy with it too. It means that Scatterbikes are not likely to be as bad as they were in 7th, yet being able to wound T7-T11 on 5+ will still be quite good.
it also means they aren't likely to get a huge price increase (at least relative to however the new points costs for everything will be).

But this SEVERLY increases the overall effectiveness of every armies small arms fire. No longer does a unit's Bolters sit there doing nothing because the Melta gun was the only one that could hurt the unit's target.
Now you have options, shoot those Bolters at the same target as the Melta and maybe drop a wound, or shoot them at a different target.

-


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:51:17


Post by: Klowny


 Luciferian wrote:
 Klowny wrote:


and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.


Sorry to disappoint you but I wouldn't take SWA as an indication of anything that will be coming in 8th.


Yea its probably wishful thinking, but would be a nice workaround to the gauss rule, seeing as now everyone gets gauss


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:54:47


Post by: jade_angel


Breng77 wrote:
I cannot see missiles getting D6 damage, I expect them to be 2 modes as now one doing S8 D3 wounds, the other S4 and d3 hits or something similar. It is also possible they will not do extra wounds at all. As a general rule S got a little worse against lower toughnesses, but better against higher toughnesses. For instance a S6 gun used to wound T4 on a 2+, but now does so at a 3+. But used to wound T8 on a 6+ but now does it on a 5+. Depending on the common toughness values in the new edition Things like bolters got a decent buff in wounding high T models


If I had to bet, missile launchers will do a flat 2 or 3 damage: reliability and flexibility, in exchange for peak effectiveness against targets. They sorta have a jack-of-all-trades role, but so do both the plasma cannon and the grav-cannon, and to balance that out, it'd make sense for missile launchers to be the reliable option (but not as good as when the really focused stuff rolls well).


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 16:58:02


Post by: tneva82


nordsturmking wrote:
I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.


One problem with that is that range of dice range is shrank which is not neccessarily good. It leads more of samey. Just look at AOS where 3+ to 5+ are soooo dominant results.

And as for bolter vs dred...Well I will never ever EVER in 7th ed shoot with small arm vs tank. Well bolter vs rear armour is fine but dreadnought stomping toward? I rather refuse to fire and lose the game.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:02:33


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


I don't like the new to-wound chart. I was fine with Lasguns being unable to kill Land Raiders. Real tanks better be at least T8, if not T10.

I also don't like split fire everywhere. I liked the fact that weapons had to be in batteries of a kind for effectiveness.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:11:03


Post by: Youn


I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:20:06


Post by: rollawaythestone


Things might die quicker with these changes, but alternatively a lot of stuff is going to die slower. My Harlequins will like the boost of not being wounded on 2+ from Str 5 weaponry. Space Marines are only wounded on a 3+ from Str 6 and 7. That's a big change.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:21:18


Post by: Galef


Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:28:58


Post by: Marmatag


This makes sense.

You are a TAC squad with 10 marines total. There is a plasma gun, a combi plasma, and a lascannon.

To your left, are 6 grots.
Directly in front of you are 3 Nobz.
In the distance, a Morkanaut is coming over a hill, obscuring the setting sun.

Suddenly it doesn't hurt you to have some variety in your TAC squad. In fact, it actually helps you.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:32:44


Post by: Elbows


Going back to 2nd ed. (again), the "split fire" rule is old school. I think it would be best served though as splitting fire by type of weapon (not splitting all guns, everywhere since you'll end up gaming the system).

Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).

Splitting heavy or special weapons off though, makes sense.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:33:57


Post by: rollawaythestone


 Elbows wrote:

Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).


Sounds like an actually tactical choice available to players now. This really isn't any different either from shooting a unit just enough to cause a morale test and hoping they run off the board.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:38:09


Post by: blackmage


 Galef wrote:
Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:38:34


Post by: tneva82


 Elbows wrote:
Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).


Because you want to maximize damage you cause to the enemy? With the morale system of 8th edition if you split fire like that you _kill less enemies_ than if you had concentrated fire.

Concentration of fire was better in 7th ed as well and 8th edition just adds _more_ reasons to concentrate.

Your enemy WANTS you to split tac marines against five units. He's hoping, indeed even begging you to split like that. He wants you to kill 1 model from 5 units each rather than 5 models from 1 unit(especially if that's ~10 sized unit). Sure occasionally you might cause lucky result and kill more but in average you WILL kill less. That's the way morale system has been designed.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:52:51


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Marmatag wrote:
This makes sense.

You are a TAC squad with 10 marines total. There is a plasma gun, a combi plasma, and a lascannon.

To your left, are 6 grots.
Directly in front of you are 3 Nobz.
In the distance, a Morkanaut is coming over a hill, obscuring the setting sun.

Suddenly it doesn't hurt you to have some variety in your TAC squad. In fact, it actually helps you.


It doesn't make sense for a gun battery to have one antitank gun, one antiair gun, and one machinegun, though.

Split fire, I think, makes it seem more like a collection of individuals than a squad.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:57:15


Post by: Youn


Well, If it now works as everyone gets split fire, it might be worth me putting my Thunderfire cannons as squadrons of 3 now.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 18:58:21


Post by: Galef


 blackmage wrote:

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable and since the Windrider kits comes with enough scatter lasers for every bike, this isn't going away.
Even if they make Elite Black Guardian Windirders the only unit that can have all Scatters (and thus restrict the Troops to 1 per 3), we already have seen a detachment that is heavy on Elites.

But I do think that changing the To-wound chart as it will be in 8th combined with the fact that Scatters are heavy and Relentless is likely gone, and vehicles will have more than twice the wounds as they once had HPs AND they have Armour saves now, Scatterbikes will be far from the "auto-win" units that they were in 7th.

-


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:09:30


Post by: TheIronCrow


 Deadshot wrote:
Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.


Its a big problem I hope GW can recognize quickly. Sadly a lot of people in the hobby are incredibly lazy and don't try to adjust their tactics to deal with new things (scatbikes is a huge example) and then just whine to GW until it gets changed. So when GW opens up the community feedback page its going to be flooded with tools that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag without being told how 30 times and people that try and suggest the stupidiest game mechanics possible. Essentially the vocal minority is going to bitch until GW does something about it, which in this day and age needs to desperately go away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blackmage wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.


Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:13:16


Post by: Luciferian


 TheIronCrow wrote:


Blah blah git gud scrubs I iz MLG statterbikez spammer.


Haha, no.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:21:18


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 TheIronCrow wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blackmage wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.


Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.


For sure I can deal with scatterbikes with a tailored list. With a sufficient amount of list tailoring, you can beat anything.

But with a list that can also adequately fight the Flying Circus, Gunline Guard, Riptidewing, and the Gladius? Probably not.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:21:49


Post by: 3orangewhips


 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-


I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:24:37


Post by: Ronin_eX


Fantastic change to the to-wound chart that should see a lot more weapon variety on the field. It squishes values together a bit and makes less clean breakpoints like we had in the past. Marines got a lot tougher against things in strength ranges that used to murder them. Massed fire from guard and other low-strength hordes got a very effective boost. And all the changes combine to make vehicles a lot more reliable on the field even if they can get wounded by small arms.

But I am just going to give one hearty yeah for fire splitting being once more back in the rules. I've hated the change since it cropped up in 3rd Edition, it has been the constant thing I've always wanted removed from following editions. It has never made a lick of sense, it promoted mono-specialization of units and along with the way to-wound and AP worked led to a stagnant outlook on which weapons were good and bad.

Modifiers (sweet sweet modifiers), a better to-wound chart, multi-wound weapons, fire splitting, streamlined close combat with more player interaction. I know folks want to lay a lot of this at the feet of AoS, but this is sounding more and more like the cleaned-up version of 2nd Edition I wanted back when 3rd was released. Things are looking up for once.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:28:41


Post by: Luciferian


 Ronin_eX wrote:
I know folks want to lay a lot of this at the feet of AoS, but this is sounding more and more like the cleaned-up version of 2nd Edition I wanted back when 3rd was released. Things are looking up for once.


Agreed, 8th looks like a refutation of everything that has happened since 3rd. It's a reboot back to 2.5, if you will.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:38:23


Post by: Youn


Ah, now, we just need the 2nd edition Vortex psychic power.. and All is fixed!


Worried about that Imperial Knight? Ultimate force Vortex! Fixed....


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:42:09


Post by: CadianGateTroll


A str3 lasgun should not damage a t7 vehicle/mc.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:42:44


Post by: Luciferian


Youn wrote:
Ah, now, we just need the 2nd edition Vortex psychic power.. and All is fixed!


Worried about that Imperial Knight? Ultimate force Vortex! Fixed....


Ah man, I remember the template. Good times.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:45:49


Post by: Lance845


secretForge wrote:
Agreed, the split fire thing is nice (although yet another buff to shooting), but wont really effect much more than a few imperial units.


Not entirely true. They did not specify that each unit picks a gun and then every model must fire that gun at a single target. If every unit has full split fire and you can chose how any shots are fired at whatever target then huge blobs of infantry just became much more versatile.

It's not 10 termagants with devourers shooting 30 shots at a single unit of 5 space marines. Now it's a blob of 30 termagants with devourers shooting 45 shots at one unit and 45 at another spreading that dakka around.

This could be a big boost to counter the effectiveness of MSU.



New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:45:52


Post by: ERJAK


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!


Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!


Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Luciferian wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!


OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!



I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!
The weapons that do 2d6 wounds in sigmar are anti-infantry cannons that only hit that hard against larger(10+) squads.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CadianGateTroll wrote:
A str3 lasgun should not damage a t7 vehicle/mc.


But it's okay that it can damage a T6 one? Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 3orangewhips wrote:
 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-


I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.


They did say that the FoC systems would be flexible enough to build just about any army you could want(with fluff-based limitations)


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:51:55


Post by: Charistoph


Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I also don't like split fire everywhere. I liked the fact that weapons had to be in batteries of a kind for effectiveness.

Why? Each model is an independent platform, not a gun platform locked to all the others in its unit.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:It doesn't make sense for a gun battery to have one antitank gun, one antiair gun, and one machinegun, though.

1) A squad is not a battery. That was a very artificial construct in this game.

2) It depends on how you define "a battery". Gun batteries in old fortresses and on sailing ships where not required to fire at the same target. The batteries internal to turrets on later ships were configured that way, but many of the 14-16 inch gun turrets as well as 5 inch guns that were standard on battleships and cruisers also carried .50 cal and 20mm AA batteries on top of them which kept their fire on incoming aircraft, not the ships that were turret's targets.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Split fire, I think, makes it seem more like a collection of individuals than a squad.

This is not Split Fire. Split Fire is inferior to what is being made available here. Split Fire only allowed for one model to shoot at a separate target, no matter how many carried the rule. This new rule is so much better at it.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 19:55:56


Post by: ERJAK


 TheIronCrow wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.


Its a big problem I hope GW can recognize quickly. Sadly a lot of people in the hobby are incredibly lazy and don't try to adjust their tactics to deal with new things (scatbikes is a huge example) and then just whine to GW until it gets changed. So when GW opens up the community feedback page its going to be flooded with tools that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag without being told how 30 times and people that try and suggest the stupidiest game mechanics possible. Essentially the vocal minority is going to bitch until GW does something about it, which in this day and age needs to desperately go away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blackmage wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.


Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.


It's really hard to take you seriously when you're this aggressively unpleasant AND when you open your argument with 'people who aren't me are lazy lol'.

Personally, I think GW listening to any of YOUR ideas would be much more damaging to the game and the community as a whole than listening to anyone else's.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 20:52:22


Post by: tneva82


 3orangewhips wrote:
 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-


I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.


Doubtful they start to remove that weapon option while still allowing entire armies of LOW's. Would seem kinda funny.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 21:51:44


Post by: generalchaos34


ERJAK wrote:
 TheIronCrow wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.


Its a big problem I hope GW can recognize quickly. Sadly a lot of people in the hobby are incredibly lazy and don't try to adjust their tactics to deal with new things (scatbikes is a huge example) and then just whine to GW until it gets changed. So when GW opens up the community feedback page its going to be flooded with tools that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag without being told how 30 times and people that try and suggest the stupidiest game mechanics possible. Essentially the vocal minority is going to bitch until GW does something about it, which in this day and age needs to desperately go away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blackmage wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.
I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.


Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.


It's really hard to take you seriously when you're this aggressively unpleasant AND when you open your argument with 'people who aren't me are lazy lol'.

Personally, I think GW listening to any of YOUR ideas would be much more damaging to the game and the community as a whole than listening to anyone else's.


Im going to agree with you on this. Saying people can't adjust tactics to things like massed scatbikes is assuming you had the tools in the first place. Armies Orks and Guard simply do not have adequate tools to deal with a massed long range weapon weapon that can actively stay away from you while also getting a reliable 3+/4+ save. You can only do so much with what you have. GW has acknowledged this and that seems to be one of the reasons they are leveling the playing field. Anyone with half a brain can say LOL L2PLAY when instead you can look at the top players in the world and notice its only Eldar bike spam, gladius grav bomb/superfriends, and Daemon Monstermash lists in the top 50 lists, with nary a guard, sister, tyranid, ork, blood angel player in sight outside of those ridiculously talented die hards who got lucky (or totally surprised their opponents, like the lictor list)


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 22:01:50


Post by: Charistoph


tneva82 wrote:
 3orangewhips wrote:
 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-

I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.

Doubtful they start to remove that weapon option while still allowing entire armies of LOW's. Would seem kinda funny.

I think it's going to depend on if they provide a model for it or not.

Honestly, I wonder if we're going to be seeing Multitrackers and Spike Rifles in the army list entries (whatever the name will be). Will Tacticals still have access to the Bolt Pistol and Grenades, or will they only need to be armed with the Boltgun?

How many armies are built today with certain detachment bonuses in mind that will be invalidated by the price schema and detachment options? Just the loss of Formations means that those who built Strike Forces, Warhosts, and Decurions will be scrambling to see how they can fit their stable in to the new allowances.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/08 23:23:54


Post by: Dakka Wolf


This might actually be wonderful for melee armies.
You know you're going to delete the unit you are planning on charging, spend your bullets elsewhere. No more will msu rule the roost due the chance of being carelessly plugged and broken by a unit that has no real interest in them beyond a place to deposit shells on their way into melee.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 01:44:28


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


When I first saw the chart I had flashbacks to the WS chart of yore.

This could make blob-guard army finally useful for something other than tarpitting. Before they would have wounded Plague Marines and Bikers on a 6, now they wound them on a 5+, and can now chip low-wound tanks to death.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 02:26:59


Post by: Venerable Ironclad


I love this new method of scaling damage. S4 T4 actually feels like an adequate level up from S3 T3.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 03:47:00


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Charistoph wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I also don't like split fire everywhere. I liked the fact that weapons had to be in batteries of a kind for effectiveness.

Why? Each model is an independent platform, not a gun platform locked to all the others in its unit.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:It doesn't make sense for a gun battery to have one antitank gun, one antiair gun, and one machinegun, though.

1) A squad is not a battery. That was a very artificial construct in this game.

2) It depends on how you define "a battery". Gun batteries in old fortresses and on sailing ships where not required to fire at the same target. The batteries internal to turrets on later ships were configured that way, but many of the 14-16 inch gun turrets as well as 5 inch guns that were standard on battleships and cruisers also carried .50 cal and 20mm AA batteries on top of them which kept their fire on incoming aircraft, not the ships that were turret's targets.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Split fire, I think, makes it seem more like a collection of individuals than a squad.

This is not Split Fire. Split Fire is inferior to what is being made available here. Split Fire only allowed for one model to shoot at a separate target, no matter how many carried the rule. This new rule is so much better at it.


A battery is a artillery formation, roughly equivalent to a company in size, with 6 to 12 guns. I guess a 3-gun Lascannon section isn't exactly a gun battery, nor really is a 3-gun Basilisk section.

Forced concentration of fire isn't realistic, so I guess split fire everywhere isn't bad. I just liked it because it gave a reason not to squadron up tanks and guns of different types.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 04:32:56


Post by: Sarigar


Combining information we have available in relation to Scatbikes:

Probable -1 to hit modifier if bike moves.
New to wound chart wounds MEQ on a 3+ rather than a 2+

It reduces the chance to hit and to wound. Scatbikes won't go away as it will still be a useful weapon as it can send massed shooting into low toughness models as well as high toughness models. However, I also think powers like Guide and Doom will be even more critical. If Eldar players can't cast multiple Guides (pure speculation based on what I read about AoS), then throwing Guide on a min sized Scatbike squad would be less desirable than a larger squad (or even another unit). This could also impact the spam of min sized squads.

IF all that comes to fruition, I think it really tones down the near no brainer choice for massed Scatbikes. And this does not even include changes to Jetbike movement.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 05:32:50


Post by: Charistoph


Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:A battery is a artillery formation, roughly equivalent to a company in size, with 6 to 12 guns. I guess a 3-gun Lascannon section isn't exactly a gun battery, nor really is a 3-gun Basilisk section.

Exactly. The requirements for an individual squad are hardly the same as a support gun position.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Forced concentration of fire isn't realistic, so I guess split fire everywhere isn't bad. I just liked it because it gave a reason not to squadron up tanks and guns of different types.

Fair enough, just don't try to push it as making any kind of sense, otherwise. It really is a ridiculous requirement when you consider how people would normally operate.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 05:53:31


Post by: Grimgold


So the million dollar question for tomorrow, can independent characters still join units? I'll bet no they can not join a unit during the game.

However given that things like Lychguard, command squads, and tyrant guard would seem pretty silly without being able to help your warlord, I imagine that most factions will allow you to buy bodyguards for your warlord, and they will be considered a unit for the entire game. This will hopefully be as close as 8th ed gets to deathstars.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 06:34:42


Post by: Luke_Prowler


I was kinda of hoping they wouldn't give split fire to everyone. That really weakens threat saturation as a tactic, and removed another hard choice for shooting armies. Between this and being able to walk out of assault, is there anything left in shooting armies that can't be done with a flow chart?


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 07:02:45


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Charistoph wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:A battery is a artillery formation, roughly equivalent to a company in size, with 6 to 12 guns. I guess a 3-gun Lascannon section isn't exactly a gun battery, nor really is a 3-gun Basilisk section.

Exactly. The requirements for an individual squad are hardly the same as a support gun position.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Forced concentration of fire isn't realistic, so I guess split fire everywhere isn't bad. I just liked it because it gave a reason not to squadron up tanks and guns of different types.

Fair enough, just don't try to push it as making any kind of sense, otherwise. It really is a ridiculous requirement when you consider how people would normally operate.


Basilisk sections and Lascannon sections are support gun units, though, and that was what I was referring to in the first place. I had the formation scale off by one level, but the point is the same.

The 3-gun support elements shouldn't be mix-and-match with a Autocannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter, and there shouldn't be ordnance sections with a Basilisk, Medusa, and Griffon.

Now that I think about it, I'm not actually sure what element the Heavy Weapons Sections are. They seem analogous to the machine gun and mortar platoons that are at the company level in most of the force org charts I see, but at the platoon. I guess having an artillery section integrated into the platoon level units would allow for more immediate support and closer tactical coordination between the rifle elements and the support elements.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 07:45:41


Post by: tneva82


 Sarigar wrote:
. If Eldar players can't cast multiple Guides (pure speculation based on what I read about AoS), then throwing Guide on a min sized Scatbike squad would be less desirable than a larger squad (or even another unit). This could also impact the spam of min sized squads.


Why you think they can't cast? Some eldar specific or do you think each power can be cast only once period regardless of number of psykers? If so that contradicts this:

The new system is much more scalable – meaning that the phase works well at any size of game, with any number of psykers running around.


If there's literally limit on how many psychic powers you can cast then that's not exactly scalable...Actually it's opposite of scalable. Psychic powers would have bigger impact the smaller the game basically.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 08:13:58


Post by: Lord Xcapobl


Another thing I noticed, is that the article mentions models in a squad may fire at different targets. Models, not different weapons. So that makes me wonder if models like Terminators with Stormbolter and Cyclone MIssile Launcher, or several types of Tau Battlesuits in a squad with different weapon load-outs get some rule to split the effectiveness of their different weapons even further? Guess we'll have to wait and see individual model/squad rules.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 09:57:40


Post by: zerosignal


 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
Another thing I noticed, is that the article mentions models in a squad may fire at different targets. Models, not different weapons. So that makes me wonder if models like Terminators with Stormbolter and Cyclone MIssile Launcher, or several types of Tau Battlesuits in a squad with different weapon load-outs get some rule to split the effectiveness of their different weapons even further? Guess we'll have to wait and see individual model/squad rules.


I think you're probably right on this one, individual battlesuits can then target more than one unit.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 10:08:57


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You know, it occured to me that this model based split fire actually nerfs MSUs. One of the greatest strengths of MSU is that you have to allocate all of the squads firepower to eliminate it, which may result in wasted shots due to overkill.
With split fire though, you can divide the shots in such a way that damage is spread across multiple units, thereby assuring that no overkill occurs.

So that idea that MSUs are going to be optimal due to the changes to morale just became more implausible.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 10:31:45


Post by: tneva82


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, it occured to me that this model based split fire actually nerfs MSUs. One of the greatest strengths of MSU is that you have to allocate all of the squads firepower to eliminate it, which may result in wasted shots due to overkill.
With split fire though, you can divide the shots in such a way that damage is spread across multiple units, thereby assuring that no overkill occurs.

So that idea that MSUs are going to be optimal due to the changes to morale just became more implausible.


a) that simply puts them in bit more equal. Advantage is STILL in MSU. Not as big as without split fire but it doesn't remove the stone cold fact that new morale hurts bigger units more than MSU units(even the +1 for over 10 doesn't compensate fully. 20 sized squad loses one model, has +1 boost. Compared to all the extra casualties you will be suffering that +1 helps but doesn't negate disadvantage).

Especially since you don't really want to cause dripple damage here and there.

It's not even overkill that's biggest help for MSU but the fact that after you beat LD in battleshock _every casualty you cause kills ANOTHER model_. That's the killer. And big units are obviously more vulnerable. Unit of 5 with LD6. After you have killed 6 models every casualty causes another model(in practice you start to see that effect after 3 wounds or so already though you could get lucky).

6 casualties so...Unit of 5 doesn't care. It's already dead. 10? You basically wiped out 10 model squad with 6 casualties.

Or with 5 casualties: 5 unit is dead but no battleshock casualties. 10 sized? You suffer 0-5 extra casualties based on d6 roll.

You do not WANT to split more than neccessary.

MSU has been optimal since rogue trader and so far changes have been more MSU friendly than not. Excepting total far off surprises biggest things that remain to be seen is command points(how and what) and point costing(maybe 40k takes page from HH)


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 11:12:26


Post by: blackmage


 Galef wrote:
 blackmage wrote:

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable and since the Windrider kits comes with enough scatter lasers for every bike, this isn't going away.
Even if they make Elite Black Guardian Windirders the only unit that can have all Scatters (and thus restrict the Troops to 1 per 3), we already have seen a detachment that is heavy on Elites.

But I do think that changing the To-wound chart as it will be in 8th combined with the fact that Scatters are heavy and Relentless is likely gone, and vehicles will have more than twice the wounds as they once had HPs AND they have Armour saves now, Scatterbikes will be far from the "auto-win" units that they were in 7th.

-

i bet 100$ you will not have anymore so large amount of scatters on bikes...the fact an army will be playable doesn't mean it will play like in 7th, or there is no reason to play a new edition.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 11:20:08


Post by: tneva82


 blackmage wrote:
i bet 100$ you will not have anymore so large amount of scatters on bikes...the fact an army will be playable doesn't mean it will play like in 7th, or there is no reason to play a new edition.


Maybe it won't be as effective(but then again if game is balanced shouldn't that also be viable...) but you can play them(or GW is lying). They won't be invalidating anybodys unit of 6 scatter bikes.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 11:32:38


Post by: Breng77


tneva82 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
i bet 100$ you will not have anymore so large amount of scatters on bikes...the fact an army will be playable doesn't mean it will play like in 7th, or there is no reason to play a new edition.


Maybe it won't be as effective(but then again if game is balanced shouldn't that also be viable...) but you can play them(or GW is lying). They won't be invalidating anybodys unit of 6 scatter bikes.


Or they will be expensive, if scatter lasers on jetbikes go up to say 25 points per model they may no longer be an attractive option to take one on each bike. Especially if bikes no longer have move and fire heavy weapons at full bs. a 42 point model that shoots at BS 4+ may not be near as attractive to take in large quantities. So a squad of 6 would cost 252 points (at current bike costs) For 24 S6 AP - D 1 (maybe) shots. So 90 additional points to what it is today.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 12:01:10


Post by: Lord Xcapobl


Breng77 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
i bet 100$ you will not have anymore so large amount of scatters on bikes...the fact an army will be playable doesn't mean it will play like in 7th, or there is no reason to play a new edition.


Maybe it won't be as effective(but then again if game is balanced shouldn't that also be viable...) but you can play them(or GW is lying). They won't be invalidating anybodys unit of 6 scatter bikes.


Or they will be expensive, if scatter lasers on jetbikes go up to say 25 points per model they may no longer be an attractive option to take one on each bike. Especially if bikes no longer have move and fire heavy weapons at full bs. a 42 point model that shoots at BS 4+ may not be near as attractive to take in large quantities. So a squad of 6 would cost 252 points (at current bike costs) For 24 S6 AP - D 1 (maybe) shots. So 90 additional points to what it is today.


Over the years I have seen Rogue Trader, Second Edition, and all the intermittent editions up until 7th. Each time something about the Dark Angels changed. Each time the army was still playable. Perhaps people needed to adjust their play style a bit, sometimes (the dreaded Assault Cannon/Cyclone Missile Launcher Terminator) they even had to chop up their models. But the army in general was still playable. So now, maybe, they will limit Scatter Lasers back to the 1-in-3 or 1-in-5 ratio most other squads get their special squad support weapons or heavy weapons in. Most, not all, but still. Such a change often comes at a price, and I can already hear the cry of outrage when Scatter Lasers become 1-in-5 instead of 'Everybody gets one!'. But the army as a whole is still playable.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 12:28:31


Post by: Purifier


 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
i bet 100$ you will not have anymore so large amount of scatters on bikes...the fact an army will be playable doesn't mean it will play like in 7th, or there is no reason to play a new edition.


Maybe it won't be as effective(but then again if game is balanced shouldn't that also be viable...) but you can play them(or GW is lying). They won't be invalidating anybodys unit of 6 scatter bikes.


Or they will be expensive, if scatter lasers on jetbikes go up to say 25 points per model they may no longer be an attractive option to take one on each bike. Especially if bikes no longer have move and fire heavy weapons at full bs. a 42 point model that shoots at BS 4+ may not be near as attractive to take in large quantities. So a squad of 6 would cost 252 points (at current bike costs) For 24 S6 AP - D 1 (maybe) shots. So 90 additional points to what it is today.


Over the years I have seen Rogue Trader, Second Edition, and all the intermittent editions up until 7th. Each time something about the Dark Angels changed. Each time the army was still playable. Perhaps people needed to adjust their play style a bit, sometimes (the dreaded Assault Cannon/Cyclone Missile Launcher Terminator) they even had to chop up their models. But the army in general was still playable. So now, maybe, they will limit Scatter Lasers back to the 1-in-3 or 1-in-5 ratio most other squads get their special squad support weapons or heavy weapons in. Most, not all, but still. Such a change often comes at a price, and I can already hear the cry of outrage when Scatter Lasers become 1-in-5 instead of 'Everybody gets one!'. But the army as a whole is still playable.


Haha, remember when the inquisition/GK Crusaders had "power weapons" and the rules changed and made what kind of power weapon you had actually make a difference? FAQ said "if it says power weapons, it's whatever the model holds." And everyone hacked the swords off their crusaders and replaced them with... was it axes? mauls? Something. Then they were suddenly "power swords" and the MFA crowd was less than pleased.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 12:51:28


Post by: Lord Xcapobl


 Purifier wrote:
Haha, remember when the inquisition/GK Crusaders had "power weapons" and the rules changed and made what kind of power weapon you had actually make a difference? FAQ said "if it says power weapons, it's whatever the model holds." And everyone hacked the swords off their crusaders and replaced them with... was it axes? mauls? Something. Then they were suddenly "power swords" and the MFA crowd was less than pleased.


I do remember. In a way, changes like these, added to bought-model-efficiency, are the reason why a lot of people including me tend to magnetize at least the arms and/or weapon options on generic characters such as Space Marine Captains. No need to hack, glue different bits, and repaint. Even adding the flexibility to use a Powerfist one game, and a Powerspear the next.

Also, GW noted there will be 'new rules' for all miniatures, and changing the squad make-up (subtracting or increasing maximum squad sizes, changing weapon options, etc.) falls under the category of new rules to me.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 15:39:20


Post by: Charistoph


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Basilisk sections and Lascannon sections are support gun units, though, and that was what I was referring to in the first place. I had the formation scale off by one level, but the point is the same.

The 3-gun support elements shouldn't be mix-and-match with a Autocannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter, and there shouldn't be ordnance sections with a Basilisk, Medusa, and Griffon.

Now that I think about it, I'm not actually sure what element the Heavy Weapons Sections are. They seem analogous to the machine gun and mortar platoons that are at the company level in most of the force org charts I see, but at the platoon. I guess having an artillery section integrated into the platoon level units would allow for more immediate support and closer tactical coordination between the rifle elements and the support elements.

That sounds like you have more personal issues with the army building system then the shooting system.

Most people have setup those units precisely to combine that fire. But take an Infantry Squad or a Tactical Squad. They often have a mixed weapon set. Sure, you can set them up that the Special and Heavy Weapons are complimentary, but they still aren't the same Weapon with the same range and profile. Infantry Squads are the most common types of units in the game, so why are we to treat them as a battery?


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 17:22:42


Post by: Sarigar


tneva82 wrote:
 Sarigar wrote:
. If Eldar players can't cast multiple Guides (pure speculation based on what I read about AoS), then throwing Guide on a min sized Scatbike squad would be less desirable than a larger squad (or even another unit). This could also impact the spam of min sized squads.


Why you think they can't cast? Some eldar specific or do you think each power can be cast only once period regardless of number of psykers? If so that contradicts this:

The new system is much more scalable – meaning that the phase works well at any size of game, with any number of psykers running around.


If there's literally limit on how many psychic powers you can cast then that's not exactly scalable...Actually it's opposite of scalable. Psychic powers would have bigger impact the smaller the game basically.


You quoted the part where I indicated that it was pure speculation based on what I read about AoS. I am referring to if an army can only cast a power once. Today, another rule from AoS seems to have been drawn into 40K; characters no longer able to join units. It is me looking at AoS rules and wondering what else will be adopted by 40K.

You can have multiple psykers on the table, but that is not a 100% guarantee they can cast the same powers. Again, this is speculation.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 17:46:41


Post by: Martel732


 CadianGateTroll wrote:
A str3 lasgun should not damage a t7 vehicle/mc.


It's fine. The possibility is there to encourage bad players to make bad choices.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 17:49:19


Post by: tneva82


 Sarigar wrote:
You quoted the part where I indicated that it was pure speculation based on what I read about AoS. I am referring to if an army can only cast a power once. Today, another rule from AoS seems to have been drawn into 40K; characters no longer able to join units. It is me looking at AoS rules and wondering what else will be adopted by 40K.

You can have multiple psykers on the table, but that is not a 100% guarantee they can cast the same powers. Again, this is speculation.


True but I look at what GW HAS said. If one power could only be cast once that would mean they flat out lied already by claiming non-scalable system is scalable. It scales to neither direction.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 17:52:06


Post by: blackmage


we will see, but i bet anything , we will not see again 20+ scatterbikes in standards tournaments play


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/09 18:18:13


Post by: Galef


 blackmage wrote:
we will see, but i bet anything , we will not see again 20+ scatterbikes in standards tournaments play

Scatterbikes, maybe not. But my 18 Windriders + various Skyrunner Characters will continue to form the backbone of my army, as it has since 4th ed.
I just might finally be rewarded for using Shuricannons instead of Scatter lasers (or at least mixed units as I have been doing for most of 7th ed)

But I can get on-board with every Tom, Dick and Harry not bringing the same list to tourneys. Everyone can finally hop of the band-wagon and leave me to my jetbikes.

-


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/10 04:20:57


Post by: Sarigar


tneva82 wrote:
 Sarigar wrote:
You quoted the part where I indicated that it was pure speculation based on what I read about AoS. I am referring to if an army can only cast a power once. Today, another rule from AoS seems to have been drawn into 40K; characters no longer able to join units. It is me looking at AoS rules and wondering what else will be adopted by 40K.

You can have multiple psykers on the table, but that is not a 100% guarantee they can cast the same powers. Again, this is speculation.


True but I look at what GW HAS said. If one power could only be cast once that would mean they flat out lied already by claiming non-scalable system is scalable. It scales to neither direction.


I don't see it as flat out lying, but you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not going to argue on what the rules will be without having access to the rules.


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/10 06:29:33


Post by: koooaei


Don't you guyz have a feeling that you're about to wake up from the nightmare infested with scatbikes and invisible deathstars?


New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry - newest game teaser @ 2017/05/10 14:48:09


Post by: Charistoph


 koooaei wrote:
Don't you guyz have a feeling that you're about to wake up from the nightmare infested with scatbikes and invisible deathstars?

Don't worry, this GW. A new nightmare will be waiting just around the corner.