The current edition of course, i will play heresy in 7th untill it switches to 8th and will play that until it changes again. We will find out when this is happening at warhammer fest.
Why?
I wish to be part of an expanding and evolving player base for a game instead of a dwindling and stagnating one.
Also to the OP your first sentence actually made me giggle "I dont like that they have slightly changed the way characters work for balance reasons by removing the ability to be in a unit but keeping the effect on nearby units and then have the audacity to not let me kill them any time i want from range!"
So you are claiming to be unhappy that the gameplay effect of characters is staying mostly the same?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.
King Amroth wrote: The current edition of course, i will play heresy in 7th untill it switches to 8th and will play that until it changes again. We will find out when this is happening at warhammer fest.
Why?
I wish to be part of an expanding and evolving player base for a game instead of a dwindling and stagnating one.
Also to the OP your first sentence actually made me giggle "I dont like that they have slightly changed the way characters work for balance reasons by removing the ability to be in a unit but keeping the effect on nearby units and then have the audacity to not let me kill them any time i want from range!"
So you are claiming to be unhappy that the gameplay effect of characters is staying mostly the same?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.
I think it is because of the plastic models that made 30k much more popular, not saying the plastic models are a bad thing in fact the opposite. But when you attract more people to a gaming system you will get more bad eggs playing it than before
I hope it is but too often the so called "bad eggs" claim to be long time players, honestly the gameplay changes from 40k 7th to 40k 8th are nothing important and do nothing but streamline the actual dice rolling and model use without really touching the tactical side. Fantasy to AOS was a massive change but Aos is also a lot closer to 40k than it is to fantasy.
King Amroth wrote: I hope it is but too often the so called "bad eggs" claim to be long time players, honestly the gameplay changes from 40k 7th to 40k 8th are nothing important and do nothing but streamline the actual dice rolling and model use without really touching the tactical side. Fantasy to AOS was a massive change but Aos is also a lot closer to 40k than it is to fantasy.
Also I think a lot of people are worried cause a lot of the core mechanics of the various legions/AoD armies rely on things like initiative and what not so changing it fundamentally changes their legion. But I think forgeworld will do right by us and make a good set of rules. Especially since 30k is such a breadwinner for them they can't afford to screw it up
King Amroth wrote: The current edition of course, i will play heresy in 7th untill it switches to 8th and will play that until it changes again. We will find out when this is happening at warhammer fest.
Why?
I wish to be part of an expanding and evolving player base for a game instead of a dwindling and stagnating one.
Also to the OP your first sentence actually made me giggle "I dont like that they have slightly changed the way characters work for balance reasons by removing the ability to be in a unit but keeping the effect on nearby units and then have the audacity to not let me kill them any time i want from range!"
So you are claiming to be unhappy that the gameplay effect of characters is staying mostly the same?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.
Personally i like using a lesser HQ character and dumping him in a squad to do something specific - in 8th a character is going to be considered 'wasted' by 'only' buffing a single squad when they have an area effect for it.
I don't like the fact that the new character rules are supposedly to stop 'deathstars' being used, but from where i'm sitting the 'deathstars' just got a whole lot bigger - now that super-group of characters has units in front and behind it, all receiving buffs and all characters giving buffs to each other. Except that now theres no template weapons so any damage done to the characters only hits one model and if you do manage to kill one character the wounds don't trail over to the others - you'll only ever kill one character with a units' shooting (this is also assuming you found a way to target said character now you can only shoot at them if they are the closest model)
I'm expecting nearby troop units to get a sort of 'look out sir' ability to characters within a certain radius to support this 'no more deathstars' notion GW are rolling with..
A lot of HH mechanics (and therefore factions) are going to need a complete overhaul - emperors children who had a bunch of initiative based stuff on the go (sonic shreikers, legion trait) are also going to play different - sweeping units after combat using initiative buffs is their MO, but not for long...
edit: Also, as an Ordo Reductor player i have bodyguards for my characters...
Spoiler:
Good luck to FW in figuring out how to adapt that to 8th..
I did not vote because none of the options represent my view.
I will use the version of the rules that FW tells me to use, that might be 7th, that might be 8th and it could be FW's custom HH rules. I trust that FW likes money, and a good set of HH rules will continue to make money.
I think that the buff bubble provided by say, a chaplain, will be quite small (~6"). So putting two units inside the bubble will sacrifice a lot of both board control and independence of those units, as they have to move as a big blob.
We know that, in 8th, in general, characters can only be targeted if they are the nearest enemy to the firing unit.
I'm really looking forward to 8th edition so I hope FW doesn't drag their feet updating the HH to it. I totally get the logistic issues, but they could always update the red books quickly and keep the 7th ed stuff in the campaign books, since those are all about background and missions.
King Amroth wrote: The current edition of course, i will play heresy in 7th untill it switches to 8th and will play that until it changes again. We will find out when this is happening at warhammer fest.
Why?
I wish to be part of an expanding and evolving player base for a game instead of a dwindling and stagnating one.
Also to the OP your first sentence actually made me giggle "I dont like that they have slightly changed the way characters work for balance reasons by removing the ability to be in a unit but keeping the effect on nearby units and then have the audacity to not let me kill them any time i want from range!"
So you are claiming to be unhappy that the gameplay effect of characters is staying mostly the same?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.
Personally i like using a lesser HQ character and dumping him in a squad to do something specific - in 8th a character is going to be considered 'wasted' by 'only' buffing a single squad when they have an area effect for it.
I don't like the fact that the new character rules are supposedly to stop 'deathstars' being used, but from where i'm sitting the 'deathstars' just got a whole lot bigger - now that super-group of characters has units in front and behind it, all receiving buffs and all characters giving buffs to each other. Except that now theres no template weapons so any damage done to the characters only hits one model and if you do manage to kill one character the wounds don't trail over to the others - you'll only ever kill one character with a units' shooting (this is also assuming you found a way to target said character now you can only shoot at them if they are the closest model)
I'm expecting nearby troop units to get a sort of 'look out sir' ability to characters within a certain radius to support this 'no more deathstars' notion GW are rolling with..
A lot of HH mechanics (and therefore factions) are going to need a complete overhaul - emperors children who had a bunch of initiative based stuff on the go (sonic shreikers, legion trait) are also going to play different - sweeping units after combat using initiative buffs is their MO, but not for long...
edit: Also, as an Ordo Reductor player i have bodyguards for my characters...
Spoiler:
Good luck to FW in figuring out how to adapt that to 8th..
Yeah, me too. I don´t think they can generally adapt the whole Magosstuff to 8th, because it is almost impossible. And I don´t wanna have Mymidax-buffbot or Lacrimallus-buffbot or,.....
The characterstuff is just insane in the 8th.
*Not mentioning Phosphex, Graviton and other stuff again, because obvious.
Well there's no point in playing it with the current broken units now, so hopefully they'll actually address those problems when they're forced to update to 8th and it will be playable.
Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.
QFT!
Yeah, I'm surprised by how many of the 30k community online seem to be sticking their fingers in their ears and swearing that every bit of info released means that 30k will stick with 7ed or get its own rules. FW seem to have been pretty clear in indicating that it WILL switch. Releasing Angelus when everyone knows that it's going to be invalidated would be a bad business decision, so that gives us a finite timeframe.
I'll switch to 8ed as soon as I can - everything I've seen looks great. Even if a few individual things look odd, the changes as a whole look so good that I'm convinced it's going to be a better game system anyway!
The real problem for me is playing Heresy in the interim. If 40k rules come out soon, and they are a better, faster game, there's no way I'm going to want to continue with 7ed any longer than I have to, or try and keep both rulesets in my head at the same time. So I'll probably be shelving the HH stuff until they update.
On the other hand, since the vast majority of HH units and weapons exist in 40k too, a lot of the work will have been done by the release of 40k 8th. Hopefully it won't take FW too long to update the Legion-specific units and odd weapons that are left over.
I'm curious, why do some people think everything in the new edition must work exactly the same way it works now? 8th isn't just another incremental revision to 3rd, it's an all new game, a true 4th edition of 40K.
What I want to happen is Book VIII "Angels" released as 7th edition, and then Forge World to work very carefully and diligently to convert everything to 8th Edition, maintaining the flavor and balance that the 30K Horus Heresy has been so famous for. Just for the sake of completeness for the Horus Heresy in 7th edition. I just want the final, Big Black Book to complete the series under the same rule set (6th/7th).
8th Ed is a true change of the rules. Similar terms and some concepts will carry over, but the overall playing of the game will change significantly. How it will play only GW and the few people that have play tested it know. From everything I've read so far, it will have a very much Age of Sigmar feel to it (which I like and play regularly). Which is... different. Right now, I have a sense of what each Legion is capable of, how they play, and their relative "power level". A new edition means all that goes out the window. I want to see how the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and White Scars compare to the other 7th edition Legions. After that, I'll jump into 8th with both feet.
What will probably happen? We'll get a Day One PDF of the Legions with place holder stats so we can play Horus Heresy games in 8th edition from day 1. They won't be balanced or play tested or anything else, and it will quickly become evident that 30K is broken. Then FW will slowly, ever so slowly, drip out updated Legion books, probably at the rate of 2-3 Legions every six months. The first book to be done will be Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and White Scars because presumably, that is the book FW is working on right now. Around Holiday Season 2017, we'll see the first 30K book released for 8th ed- DA, BA, and WS. Six months later, we'll see the first three Traitor Legions. Once again, the Horus Heresy will be strung out over five plus years, with some Legions still using a Day One PDF with placeholder rules. "Codex Creep" will be a real thing, because those Day One place holder stats are going to suck the life out of whatever Legion you play. Anyone that played 2ed/Rogue Trader and then converted over to 3rd Ed knows exactly what I'm talking about. All the current armies received place holder stats/rules day 1, and that was OK at first. Then when the Codexes started rolling out, there was a definite shift in power levels, with New Codex > Older Codex > Place Holder Stats.
That's why I want DA, BA, and WS released in 7th first, so I can play a complete game until Forge World gets around to updating 30K properly. I'm just not looking forward to playing 30K with those place holder stats.
Games set during The Horus Heresy using Forge World's Battles in the Age of Darkness expansion will continue to use the rules set out in the current edition of Warhammer 40,000. Please check our Facebook page for further information
ArbitorIan wrote: On the other hand, since the vast majority of HH units and weapons exist in 40k too, a lot of the work will have been done by the release of 40k 8th. Hopefully it won't take FW too long to update the Legion-specific units and odd weapons that are left over.
Yeah, while it's a big job, moving everything to 8th won't be *quite* as difficult as some are making it out to be, IMO. As you said, a lot of the heavy lifting with units should be done already for 40K. I also suspect that GW has some translation rubrics they can share with the FW team for other items, and the FW team can also draw on the 40K stuff to find closest comparators, etc.
The main reason I think it might take a while is because FW has a small team that already probably has too much on their plates.
edit: Also, as an Ordo Reductor player i have bodyguards for my characters...
Good luck to FW in figuring out how to adapt that to 8th..
You're right, that will be impossible to adapt unless...
Spoiler:
Something like this maybe?
Good attempt but no.
Mechanicum HQ's do more than trade wounds with their bodyguard - they use servitors to improve battlesmith rolls as well as denoting firepower via augury scanner - this is before we get into how the Lachrimallus based army list works.
The truth is that It's more than just the HQs - the Tech-Preist Auxillia adepts are characters too, as are Myrmidon Lords who are a character in both Secutor and Destructor units. Moar headache.
That tau profile adds more worry actually - not only can these drones do 'look out sir' for any tau infantry, their weapon can target characters even when they're not the closest unit.. >sigh< top teir tau again.
If GW intended to get rid of deathstars they went about it the wrong way - rather than seperating the characters from the unit they should have stopped re-rolls. They did it for 'twin linked' why not for armour/invuln/FNP rolls?
Games set during The Horus Heresy using Forge World's Battles in the Age of Darkness expansion will continue to use the rules set out in the current edition of Warhammer 40,000. Please check our Facebook page for further information
Not updating to 8th may leave books, but Forge World is a miniatures company. And they're not going to be selling as many miniatures for an obsolete game.
My little group is sticking with 7th. I don't like most of what I've heard they're doing with 8th, I've got no real interest in learning a brand new game when I like the current one just fine, and above all I'm not interested in buying new books from FW.
Tamwulf wrote:What will probably happen? We'll get a Day One PDF of the Legions with place holder stats so we can play Horus Heresy games in 8th edition from day 1. They won't be balanced or play tested or anything else, and it will quickly become evident that 30K is broken. Then FW will slowly, ever so slowly, drip out updated Legion books, probably at the rate of 2-3 Legions every six months. The first book to be done will be Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and White Scars because presumably, that is the book FW is working on right now. Around Holiday Season 2017, we'll see the first 30K book released for 8th ed- DA, BA, and WS. Six months later, we'll see the first three Traitor Legions. Once again, the Horus Heresy will be strung out over five plus years, with some Legions still using a Day One PDF with placeholder rules. "Codex Creep" will be a real thing, because those Day One place holder stats are going to suck the life out of whatever Legion you play. Anyone that played 2ed/Rogue Trader and then converted over to 3rd Ed knows exactly what I'm talking about. All the current armies received place holder stats/rules day 1, and that was OK at first. Then when the Codexes started rolling out, there was a definite shift in power levels, with New Codex > Older Codex > Place Holder Stats.
That's why I want DA, BA, and WS released in 7th first, so I can play a complete game until Forge World gets around to updating 30K properly. I'm just not looking forward to playing 30K with those place holder stats.
I'm not sure why any that would happen - it seems to go against what GW and FW have always done in the past and everything they've been saying over the last few weeks. Legion codexes? I think you're more likely to see a PDF set of 'data cards'. The codex creep model is exactly what they've been moving away from for years now.
Also, the release of Angelus as 7th wouldn't complete the game in any way - they've already stated that they think the Black Book series will be 12-15 books long, which means there still a lot to come before it's 'complete'.
SirDonlad wrote:Good attempt but no.
Mechanicum HQ's do more than trade wounds with their bodyguard - they use servitors to improve battlesmith rolls as well as denoting firepower via augury scanner - this is before we get into how the Lachrimallus based army list works.
How the list works in 7ed, you mean. This is a new game. It's gonna have new rules. Mechanicum HQs have special Bodyguard arrangements at the moment, but maybe they won't in the new edition. Maybe servitors will be a separate unit who add to battle smith rolls within a certain radius. Who knows?
I'm sure Ordo Reductor will still be written to keep to the fluff as an artillery/siege focussed list, but they're under no obligation to make those rules work in any way like they currently do in 7ed. Expect the way you play your army and arrange your units to change.
Either homebrew 8.5 or homebrew 3rd-7th fusion. I've accepted that GW is going to make a hash of it whatever they do and I'm going to need to do some bodging to make anything work, but whether I mess with 8th at launch or go back and take the best bits of the patches-on-3e era and blend them into an experimental delicious multi-vintage fusion thing depends on how bad 8th actually is.
In an ideal world I'd like to see fw keep the 7th template and be allowed to make Hh and the "40k" rules there own, so fw could re write and change a lot of the glaring issues.
But what I really want is the last 3 legions to come out in 7th format, then they can get to changing it all to 8th, this will allow people to choose, and not be forced into a rule set that may be worse.
I'm not sure why any that would happen - it seems to go against what GW and FW have always done in the past and everything they've been saying over the last few weeks. Legion codexes? I think you're more likely to see a PDF set of 'data cards'. The codex creep model is exactly what they've been moving away from for years now.
Also, the release of Angelus as 7th wouldn't complete the game in any way - they've already stated that they think the Black Book series will be 12-15 books long, which means there still a lot to come before it's 'complete'.
1. There are Legion Codexes, they are just not called Codeses. They are called Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal, Book II: Massacre, etc. The red books are updates of the Big Black Books. Yes, FW has stated that there are going to be many Horus Heresy Books (I think I saw the 12-15 books rumor as well). There are only 3 Legions left that still need to be fully fleshed out, with unique rules, units, and most importantly, Primarchs. The same rumor that talked about 12-15 books also said the Legions would be completed, and the Siege of Terra would be a couple books, and after that, it would be all campaigns.
2. PDF 'Data Cards' are the same thing as a Day 1 PDF. FW does not have the people or resources to properly play test the entire 30K range, and so they will just vomit out warscrolls for us to play with. Forge World is a subsidiary of Games Workshop, and even though GW has been trying to absorb FW into the main studio, it hasn't happened yet. FW has a very, very small design team, and someone mentioned in another thread that the lead designer has had some kind of long, debilitating illness and is the reason why it took Book VIII so long to come out. It's also the reason why Book VIII is the most poorly written, worst edited Horus Heresy book yet. My personal opinion- FW knew when 8th was coming out, Book VIII wasn't entirely finished, and they didn't want to lose all the development time in a book very few would buy if they knew 8th Edition was coming out. As it is, a person would be really rolling the dice right now in building a new 30K army for 7th ed when 8th ed is coming. Book VIII is constantly being sold out, and that's probably due to the fact that FW underestimated how many people really wanted the book. Out of my play group of about 25 HH Players, we've only seen one Space Wolves and one Custodes player. Everyone else is waiting for 8th ed. Demand for Book VIII is high, but the actual purchase of new 30K armies is on hold until 8th drops.
3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor". So GW combines new models and gives them powerful rules to entice both new players and veteran players into buying the new army. The last time GW wiped the slate clean was the transition from 2nd ed to 3rd ed, when all the old codexes instanly became null and void, and all the armies at that time received "place holder" rules that, in a word, sucked . As soon as a codex dropped, and GW did a great job dolling out those codexes over several years, that army not only had new models, but new rules that made them awesome. I don't see how that can possibly change with the 7th-8th ed change here. Day 1, all armies are going to get warscrolls for each unit. Think about how many units there are in 40K. There are 64 units in the Space Marine Codex alone. There is no way GW has playtested all of those units/formations out of just the space marine codex, when there are 18 codexes and 15 supplements. The Space Marines have the largest codex, but just thinking that everyone else on average has 30 units in each codex- that's 510 units, plus the extra formations and units out of the supplements. What does that mean? That there is too much for the design team to do, and not enough time to do it in. So 40K will get some very, very broken Warscrolls because there won't have been enough play testing. By extension, even though 30K is much smaller, it also has a smaller design team, and thus, the 30K warscrolls (Day 1 PDFs) will be very, very bad. Expect whole units to disappear as they did in 3rd and in AoS.
4. If GW moves to a "living rule book", as in revises and changes warscrolls as they see fit... well, just go take a look at Privateer Press and how that's working out for them right now. With the players doing all the play testing, new rules for units dropping every week, frequent errata... the game is in constant development, and no one knows all about what is going on. A unit that is great today can be crushed by an errata tomorrow (and it has happened a lot for Warmachine/Hordes lately). GW is going to have to find some kind of balance- too many updates and you break the game. Not enough updates with inadequate play testing means a broken game.
5. GW has already said there will be "army books" for 8th edition. I assume they will be in the same style as the books for AoS. They will roll out new models/units, and when they get to a certain point, they will write an army book for them. The army books have updated warscrolls over the previous warscrolls, meaning you have to get the army book or the digital app for AoS to get the most current warscrolls for your army. As an incentive, GW includes new warscroll battalions and army wide rules in those army books for you to buy. So far, GW has done a fairly good job of balancing out the new armies in AoS vs. the legacy armies (those without an armybook). However, it's important to note that some of the most broken, powerful armies are still those Legacy armies, while some of those Legacy armies have become extinct because they are that bad. Hopefully GW has learned from this, and we'll see more moderation in the army books for 8th ed.
6. Releasing Book IX with BA, DA, and WS (even though it's not supposed to have WS but Dark Mechanicum) would fully flesh out all the Legions for 30K. This would give the players the choice to play those armies well into the release cycle for 8th edition until Forge World can catch up with updated, properly play tested and edited Red Books. In my opinion, that would be the best thing Forge World could do to keep the integrity of 30K viable until they can properly design and play test all the units for 8th ed.
The cynic in me says that what's going to happen is that 30K will get very poorly balanced and edited warscrolls that will break 30K for years to come until FW can get out updated Red Books... which will take them 1-2 years based on their current track record. Whatever happens, 30K is in a very bad spot right now because FW was either totally surprised and didn't plan for 8th edition, or they are swamped with converting everything they can as fast as they can. Think about this: each Legion has about 4-6 unique units, plus the "Plain Jane Units", the Mechanicum, the Solar Auxilia, Custodies, Sisters of Silence, and Titans. Even without BA, DA, and WS, that's about 150 unique warscrolls, then you have to add in the Rites of War for each Legion, plus the "Plain Jane" RoW... I have faith that we will eventually get a great 30K game, but I have no hope that it will happen soon. Probably something along the lines of 2-3 years from now before 30K will be in the same place it is now. Another bleak prediction: We won't see updated Red Books until spring 2018, and Book IX won't come out until the Holiday season of 2018. Man, I hope I am wrong.
And to be fair, 30K wasn't "balanced" before Inferno dropped, and definitely wasn't afterward. Any "imbalances" in the updated 8th edition material are liable to be no worse, and maybe better given that the basic ruleset seems headed toward a more inherently balanced place.
gorgon wrote: ...the basic ruleset seems headed toward a more inherently balanced place...
I'm going to tell you a story.
Once upon a time a company in Nottingham made a game. Then they had some cool ideas and added them to the game.
Then they noticed the game was getting too complicated so they rebooted it. Then they had some cool ideas and added them again. The game wasn't too top-heavy yet, so they did it again, and again. Each time they threw new cool ideas into the mix without checking whether they worked, or checking whether the foundation they were throwing them onto was solid. Finally they stepped back and noticed that their game was a precarious top-heavy tower of inefficient mess.
So they said to themselves "It must be time for a reboot!" Then they collected some cool ideas and tossed them into a new pot without checking whether they worked.
The ruleset is not inherently balanced or unbalanced. The problem that led to 7th is that GW's design mentality is based on throwing a steady stream of new content out the door without checking to see if it's done or balanced and then not looking to see what happened to it because they're too busy making more new content.
8th is going to be less bloated than 7th. It isn't going to be any more balanced and it's going to keep getting increasingly bloated as GW throws new stuff at it until they get fed up and reboot it again.
I'm looking forwards to weapon master vet squads with power swords. Hitting first against terminators as usual, reducing their save to a 5+ and having the possibility to do 30 wounds.
Well, I'm not going to tell any stories...just the truth.
Things like broken psychics, nerfed assaults, buff shenanigans, and the deathstars that all those things created weren't about bloat. Just like how 5th edition's inherent bias toward armies sitting in metal boxes wasn't about bloat or broken codices. Eighth has a chance to level the playing field to a degree we haven't seen since early 3rd, both because we can see a 'leveling' approach in the core rules, and because we'll get a fresh set of codices designed for this rule set and updated periodically for balance.
Now, 30K doesn't quite have the codex legacy issues of 40K, but a reset can do it some good considering the disparities we see between the Betrayal legions and the Inferno legions.
Yes, imbalances will still exist, as I suggested in the part of my post that was edited out. But I think 8th has a real chance to be a truly good fundamental improvement. And if it gets too bloated for 30k or 40k in 8 years...that's too far down the road for me to get worked up about.
gorgon wrote: That is one heaping pile of assumptions poured into a big bubbling cauldron of negativity. Jesus.
Would you rather hear the opposite?
It's all going to be Unicorns and Sparkles and Rainbows! FW is the best, and GW can do no wrong! With such a small design team and so much to do, it means they will be super, duper efficient and seamlessly integrate all 150+ unique units with zero problems! Why, I bet they even have several members of GW right there with them, walking them through carefully and thoughtfully crafted algorithms to convert stats from 7th edition into 8th edition that will allow all the Legions to retain their unique flavor and characteristics, and yet be well balanced with each other. I expect FW to announce the same day that 8th releases pre-orders for new Red Books! 8th edition is going to be awesome! So awesome, that you will forget all about the seven editions before it!
So there. No assumptions and so much hope, faith, optimism and enthusiasm that it can't be contained. Sparkles and Rainbows!
As a side note, I spent a long time in the military, and the old expression was "Plan for the worst, expect the best". I'm planning for the show that 30K will become, but I expect all that planning will be for nothing as 8th will roll out with no problems and we'll all enjoy our game of little toy soldiers. My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen, but I have faith that they are trying their best and I'll make the new rules, whatever they may be, work.
Tamwulf wrote: As a side note, I spent a long time in the military, and the old expression was "Plan for the worst, expect the best". I'm planning for the show that 30K will become, but I expect all that planning will be for nothing as 8th will roll out with no problems and we'll all enjoy our game of little toy soldiers. My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen, but I have faith that they are trying their best and I'll make the new rules, whatever they may be, work.
I used to play Tyranids and CSM in 40k. So yeah, I am in the same camp right there.
Tamwulf wrote: My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen,
Then why are you here wasting everyone's time including your own?
How am I wasting your time and my time? You snipped and cut a portion of my post to prove what, exactly? You may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. So let me put it this way:
I expect this transition to 8th edition to not be smooth. There is already a ton of angst and whining about it. I'm sure everyone here has already heard local players complain about it, and some even say they are quitting the game altogether. We haven't seen all the rules yet, and we have no real idea how this edition will affect our armies. People are making a lot of assumptions, and people as a whole, dislike and resist change. The result is that a lot of people have this negative view of the new edition. I am totally looking forward to 8th edition because I love playing Age of Sigmar, and this edition looks like a better version of that rules set.
The experience I have had with GW and Forge World in the past leads me to believe that they will up the initial deployment of this edition, but eventually things will settle down, smooth out, and we'll have a good game again.
Myself, I love the fluff of 30K, I love the models, but sometimes the rules leave a lot to be desired. Hasn't led me to quit playing the game yet! I'm totally looking forward to 8th edition and can't wait to see what GW does with it. It's gonna suck at first. We're gonna have to overcome all that negative bias, and overcome the rough transition from 7th to 8th.
Tamwulf wrote: My experience with GW has taught me that there is no hope for that to happen,
Then why are you here wasting everyone's time including your own?
Chill dude, i'm cool with people venting a bit; theres a whole bunch of drastic changes on the go and this is going to be the start of a multiple year acclimatization between the people playtesting for gw and the community in terms of what we expect from a game and of their approach.
I feel that a lot of the changes have been made without having looked at them in a broader way - aside from what i've already said on characters, the new close combat transports are a bit pants-on-head silly and the new way seems to be that all vehicles are assault vehicles now - except they arent because you have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and your opponent gets to use a turn getting their units out of charge range.
So in effect it's like having a non assault vehicle, but your unit cant be targeted or assaulted until your next turn. Like invisibility, but for anyone disembarking...
SirDonlad wrote: I feel that a lot of the changes have been made without having looked at them in a broader way - aside from what i've already said on characters, the new close combat transports are a bit pants-on-head silly and the new way seems to be that all vehicles are assault vehicles now - except they arent because you have to disembark at the start of the movement phase and your opponent gets to use a turn getting their units out of charge range.
Regarding the underlined bit, isn't that exactly what you're doing? Judging changes without know the broader view of how the game will work in its totality, with all of the core rules, army rules, and unit rules? To take your example, you complain about how all vehicles are assault vehicles now, without knowing what rules that the current assault vehicles might get in 8th.
What you're saying is "there's going to be exceptions for certain models that you don't know about" yes?
Given GWs approach to rulemaking thus far i think its certain that some transport will get to dump its load after moving with a special exception (eldar i recon) but you can glean from the comments in the daily update that this will be the norm - it says "For a combat army, this will mean you will need to get your Transports where you need them in the previous turn for maximum effect."
It doesn't warn that only certain armies need to do that, it just generalizes to all cc armies.
My point still stands - despite making all vehicles assault vehicles, the other changes (core game mechanics, mind) negate it.
Yeah. Nobody knows right now.
I myself can see massive problems in transitioning the ruleset without extensive cutting of weapons, profiles and the RoWs....
Tamwulf wrote: 3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor".
Well here's one. I picked SoH because I liked the green colour and Horus.
Actually don't think I have ever had army that would be considered even top-6. Maybe Tau though that was before they got the super upgrade.
What does that mean? That there is too much for the design team to do, and not enough time to do it in. So 40K will get some very, very broken Warscrolls because there won't have been enough play testing. By extension, even though 30K is much smaller, it also has a smaller design team, and thus, the 30K warscrolls (Day 1 PDFs) will be very, very bad. Expect whole units to disappear as they did in 3rd and in AoS.
Well they have had few years to do it(plus AOS can be used as well) and had external groups to test it as well. Not all doom&gloom.
4. If GW moves to a "living rule book", as in revises and changes warscrolls as they see fit... well, just go take a look at Privateer Press and how that's working out for them right now. With the players doing all the play testing, new rules for units dropping every week, frequent errata... the game is in constant development, and no one knows all about what is going on. A unit that is great today can be crushed by an errata tomorrow (and it has happened a lot for Warmachine/Hordes lately). GW is going to have to find some kind of balance- too many updates and you break the game. Not enough updates with inadequate play testing means a broken game.
Once per year.
then you have to add in the Rites of War for each Legion, plus the "Plain Jane" RoW...
That is assuming there are RoW in 8th ed and that they don't just use same detachment style as main 40k.
Tamwulf wrote: 3. GW can talk about trying to fight codex escalation all they want, but ultimately, they will fail because codex escalation is a part of their business model. The only players I know that select an army based on asthetics are new players to the game that don't know anything about the game. Veteran players select new armies based on how likely they are to win- "power factor".
You need better friends/players.
I'd move and start over from scratch. It's the only way.
Tamwulf wrote: 6. Releasing Book IX with BA, DA, and WS (even though it's not supposed to have WS but Dark Mechanicum) would fully flesh out all the Legions for 30K. This would give the players the choice to play those armies well into the release cycle for 8th edition until Forge World can catch up with updated, properly play tested and edited Red Books. In my opinion, that would be the best thing Forge World could do to keep the integrity of 30K viable until they can properly design and play test all the units for 8th ed.
I hear you, and I agree. It won't happen.
AT BEST, you'll get a pdf for those legions in 6th/7th edition. There will not be another book with 6th/7th edition rules for 30k.
Go ahead and start wailing and gnashing of teeth. Get it out of your system. Denial is the first stage of grief.
Play testing for over a year? External play testing? Who? This is the age of information technology. There are no secrets. If there were external play test groups, who are they, where are they, what have they been playing? If it's one thing I know about play testing, it's that no one can keep a secret, especially a gamer. Not one leaked a play test profile? No Reddit discussions about vehicle changes? No rumors about the changes in combat? Yeah, there has been no external play testing. There is no evidence to show it.
For gnashing my teeth and denial... you assume too much about how much importance I assign to a game of little plastic toy space soldiers... It's right up there with "Make my bed in the morning".
So are you claiming that the TOs and staffs that were mentioned actually WEREN'T? Like a faked moon landing or something?
If that's where your mind is at...I don't think there's any help or solace any of us can give you.
FWIW, I had some friends who did external playtesting for GW way back when. They didn't leak anything. Only a complete jackass who A) never wants to playtest anything again for GW and B) enjoyed potential legal action against them breaks their NDA and does that.
Tamwulf wrote: Play testing for over a year? External play testing? Who? This is the age of information technology. There are no secrets. If there were external play test groups, who are they, where are they, what have they been playing? If it's one thing I know about play testing, it's that no one can keep a secret, especially a gamer. Not one leaked a play test profile? No Reddit discussions about vehicle changes? No rumors about the changes in combat? Yeah, there has been no external play testing. There is no evidence to show it.
For gnashing my teeth and denial... you assume too much about how much importance I assign to a game of little plastic toy space soldiers... It's right up there with "Make my bed in the morning".
Lead times for gw products are years. And you seriously missed that they have several tounament groups like itc testing? Didn't you read faction focus?
And maybe they are smart enough to not get charged by breaking nda and also ruining chance of more chances to playtest. I know i would take that over leaking! Advance peek is fun. Why give it up
Personally, I have stopped playing Heresy until its updated.
Saying 30k has been a balanced game is a joke and has been since we got the mechanicum lists... then we got book 7 and the joke was not even funny anymore.
I fully expect that come the HH weekender next Feb at the latest that we have an updated set of rules for 30k to bring it in line. Hopefully much sooner to be honest.
I keep seeing all this stuff about 'I will keep playing the old version' and have to ask why? Surely being part of the growing community and getting all the new updates and rules and models to see the game grow and develop is what you want?
The black books become invalid - exactly like they did between 6th and 7th with the first couple of books. Hell, I don't even know if I have the most current red books these days given how many times they have been redone.
The news that FW will have their SM and Chaos Index books ready for the launch of 8th -- with the other Index books set to be released by the end of June -- suggests that HH conversion to 8th won't be the monumental task some have made it out to be. Between these and the work GW does on the 40K lines, FW should have a pretty good baseline for HH.
Note that I realize it could still take them a while just because they're a small shop. And because they're a small shop, I really can't imagine them devoting resources to develop the remaining legions for 7th when there's work to be done for 8th. It's dead-end work for them.
gorgon wrote: The news that FW will have their SM and Chaos Index books ready for the launch of 8th -- with the other Index books set to be released by the end of June -- suggests that HH conversion to 8th won't be the monumental task some have made it out to be. Between these and the work GW does on the 40K lines, FW should have a pretty good baseline for HH.
Note that I realize it could still take them a while just because they're a small shop. And because they're a small shop, I really can't imagine them devoting resources to develop the remaining legions for 7th when there's work to be done for 8th. It's dead-end work for them.
This is a good assessment, and probably correct. Where/when did FW say they would have these Index books ready for the launch of 8th? I know they were supposed to make some big announcement May 28th at Warhammer Fest, but have I missed something?
Tamwulf wrote: This is a good assessment, and probably correct. Where/when did FW say they would have these Index books ready for the launch of 8th? I know they were supposed to make some big announcement May 28th at Warhammer Fest, but have I missed something?
Astartes and Chaos to pre-order on the 3rd, for release 'alongside the new rules'. More Index books planned for late June (which is only a couple of weeks later).
Abit of news from my local GW store owner that may matter to thows who play 30k at GW stores. My post I made in the 8th ed rumour thread.
Lockark wrote: I just got on good word that 30k will move to 8th ed. But their will be a wait until it happens.
Sadly this also means that untill the 8th ed relaunch, GW store operators will not be allowing people to play 30k games in their store after June 16th, because they will not be selling the 7th ed rule book, and don't want people playing with stuff they don't sell. It's going to leave 30k gameing in a wired limbo untill they update it.
I'm guessing the idea is that they don't want to 40k community to get split between 7th/8th like fantesy did dureing the WHFB/AoS transition, so don't want to support a OOP rule set. So I totally understand their choice from a marketing standpoint. It just sucks to get shoved to the side like that.
Tamwulf wrote: This is a good assessment, and probably correct. Where/when did FW say they would have these Index books ready for the launch of 8th? I know they were supposed to make some big announcement May 28th at Warhammer Fest, but have I missed something?
Astartes and Chaos to pre-order on the 3rd, for release 'alongside the new rules'. More Index books planned for late June (which is only a couple of weeks later).
Those are both for 40K- Imperial Armor books. Forge World hasn't really said anything at all about the Black or Red books for 30K yet.
SirDonlad wrote: I think now it's a given that the red books are going to get re-released for 8th but they won't change the black books that have been released so far.
The biggest question mark remaining is which edition is required for book 8 and hopefully that will get answered this weekend.
Are there any dakka members going to the event who can ask?
If a GW store manager will not let you play with a GW brand product in a GW store my advice is take your business elsewhere.
Lockark wrote: Abit of news from my local GW store owner that may matter to thows who play 30k at GW stores. My post I made in the 8th ed rumour thread.
Lockark wrote: I just got on good word that 30k will move to 8th ed. But their will be a wait until it happens.
Sadly this also means that untill the 8th ed relaunch, GW store operators will not be allowing people to play 30k games in their store after June 16th, because they will not be selling the 7th ed rule book, and don't want people playing with stuff they don't sell. It's going to leave 30k gameing in a wired limbo untill they update it.
I'm guessing the idea is that they don't want to 40k community to get split between 7th/8th like fantesy did dureing the WHFB/AoS transition, so don't want to support a OOP rule set. So I totally understand their choice from a marketing standpoint. It just sucks to get shoved to the side like that.
Lockark wrote: Abit of news from my local GW store owner that may matter to thows who play 30k at GW stores. My post I made in the 8th ed rumour thread.
Lockark wrote: I just got on good word that 30k will move to 8th ed. But their will be a wait until it happens.
Sadly this also means that untill the 8th ed relaunch, GW store operators will not be allowing people to play 30k games in their store after June 16th, because they will not be selling the 7th ed rule book, and don't want people playing with stuff they don't sell. It's going to leave 30k gameing in a wired limbo untill they update it.
I'm guessing the idea is that they don't want to 40k community to get split between 7th/8th like fantesy did dureing the WHFB/AoS transition, so don't want to support a OOP rule set. So I totally understand their choice from a marketing standpoint. It just sucks to get shoved to the side like that.
Eh, I guess find another store?
I've never played in a GW store myself. For those of you who do, is that your only option?
I've never played in a GW store myself. For those of you who do, is that your only option?
Or maybe this rumour was bogus then since 30k isn't movgng to 8th in near future
Well, I see the point the store owner is making. GW published 7th edition rules are going away. You'll only be able to get them from FW, and who knows how long until FW makes them available? So for a time period, there will be no available 7th edition rules.
Now, do I think that's a legit reason to ban the game? No. But it seems to be what he's saying.
I heard a few people say that they're doing this until they finish of the legions and then doing a switch to 8th. I could handle that. I could shelve my stuff and wait. But if it stays 7th permanently? I'll be done with 30k.
I've never played in a GW store myself. For those of you who do, is that your only option?
Or maybe this rumour was bogus then since 30k isn't movgng to 8th in near future
Well, I see the point the store owner is making. GW published 7th edition rules are going away. You'll only be able to get them from FW, and who knows how long until FW makes them available? So for a time period, there will be no available 7th edition rules.
Now, do I think that's a legit reason to ban the game? No. But it seems to be what he's saying.
Point is since 8th ed part turned out to be fabrication maybe store thing was also false
I certainly hope FW takes the time to redo some of the worse parts of 7th that even the Age of Darkness expansion rules didn't fix - like the Psychic Phase.
From what i've heard, they're tailoring the rules specifically towards Horus Heresy, so it will likely be a streamlined version of 7th, which isn't bad. It will keep the complexity that alot of us HH players enjoy and will also keep it from getting too bogged down with gak. I guess we'll see.
Booyah! Very happy to see the Blood Angels and Dark Angels get released in 7th edition. This is great news to me!
It should also quiet the guy in my gaming group that has been very irritating and loudly crying about 8th edition and how bad it will be for his Alpha Legion and how he is just going to throw his entire army in the garbage and never play 30K again.
I am quite happy by this but not really sure. It will make it difficult to play in the stores though as many managers dont allow people to play heresy as they dont sell it and i know a few who dont even alow forgeworld models and rules because it isnt sold by GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given that it isnt even going to be the same game at heart im not sure how it will turn out.
This is the best news, not just that we are keeping 7th, but that 40k isn't. Which means that Horus Heresy is now entirely in the hands of forgeworld. It's no longer beholden to terrible GW40k decisions.
We will get an entire game line that was created in more or less 1 edition (I know the first few books were 6th but there was a negligible change between 6 and 7 30k).
Forgeworld will likely tidy up the edition, add in the FAQs from earlier in the year, make it more usable.
I also like it because now we have 2 main sci fi games that will play differently. And it makes perfect sense too. I think the 40k range is going to gradually be overhauled to the newer, bigger minis, same as they did with AOS.
Anyway. I don't play 40k so I'm very happy we get to stay in the same ed.
Seriously where the heck are these insane store managers located?!
King Amroth wrote: I am quite happy by this but not really sure. It will make it difficult to play in the stores though as many managers dont allow people to play heresy as they dont sell it and i know a few who dont even alow forgeworld models and rules because it isnt sold by GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given that it isnt even going to be the same game at heart im not sure how it will turn out.
King Amroth wrote: I am quite happy by this but not really sure. It will make it difficult to play in the stores though as many managers dont allow people to play heresy as they dont sell it and i know a few who dont even alow forgeworld models and rules because it isnt sold by GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given that it isnt even going to be the same game at heart im not sure how it will turn out.
Point to the boxes on their selves, the ones labeled Horus Heresy and inform them, yes they do sell the Heresy.
King Amroth wrote: I am quite happy by this but not really sure. It will make it difficult to play in the stores though as many managers dont allow people to play heresy as they dont sell it and i know a few who dont even alow forgeworld models and rules because it isnt sold by GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given that it isnt even going to be the same game at heart im not sure how it will turn out.
Anyone who gets turned away with that excuse really should write a letter to GWHQ stating what happened and the name of the staff member, or it will keep on happening.
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!
I'd like to see some changes to vehicle damage rolls - a d12 chart for damage results would give much more durable vehicles as well as some more dynamic damage results. i always loved the way that tanks could throw a track and skid out of control in 3rd. good times!
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!
I'm really surprised that I have to keep saying this same thing in various threads: there aren't as many 30K players as 40K players, and for many of us, much of the time our only option is to play against a 40K player. Splitting a playerbase is never a good thing. And now there is an additional barrier to entry for prospective 30K players by having to buy another expensive FW book.
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!
I'm really surprised that I have to keep saying this same thing in various threads: there aren't as many 30K players as 40K players, and for many of us, much of the time our only option is to play against a 40K player. Splitting a playerbase is never a good thing. And now there is an additional barrier to entry for prospective 30K players by having to buy another expensive FW book.
Lets not kid ourselves. If the price of a rulebook to play this game is going to keep people from playing, they were never serious about it anyways.
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!
I'm really surprised that I have to keep saying this same thing in various threads: there aren't as many 30K players as 40K players, and for many of us, much of the time our only option is to play against a 40K player. Splitting a playerbase is never a good thing. And now there is an additional barrier to entry for prospective 30K players by having to buy another expensive FW book.
I accept that sucks for you.
But i think you may need to promote what you love more to get more 30k games - it isn't so difficult to make a space marine army for legion play with so many units having paralels during the HH, most 40k marine players i know have the models needed already.
And the guard, cuckstodes and SoS players now i think about it.
If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game. HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around. It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.
SirDonlad wrote: I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!
See, this is true in theory - FW are in total control of their rules so they COULD write a modern, fast paced wargame with even better rules and gameplay than what 8ed looks to have.
I just don't see that happening with something based on 7ed.
At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.
8ed and the marketing around this is a sign that even GW realise this, that they've seen the newer, better games out there and have realised that their core game is too big and daunting for people to get into. Not even GW admit any more that the reason to play 7ed was because of the great rules. Maybe there ARE people out there who really think the 7ed ruleset is a good one - maybe they've even played AoS, X-Wing, Afterlife, Infinity, etc etc and still honestly think that 7ed 40k is the better ruleset. But I don't think there are many!
I agree that FW could take 7ed and streamline it into a good game, but I don't think they will. For me, that would require:
- Removing entirely the concept that my 'X' unit deletes your 'Y' unit. Kraken Penetrators straight up removing things. One-shotting vehicles should be really rare. Deep striking AT instantly removing bits of the army isn't fun.
- Really, radically changing the psychic phase, so it feels less like a game outside the game.
- Removing the weird jump that makes Superheavies instantly vastly better than normal vehicles, and thus the gross imbalance with things like Knights.
- Reducing the number of special rules and exceptions across the board to speed things up. Primarchs have, what, ten special rules? And then all their equipment does, etc
Those are just some examples, but all of them would require reprinting the Red Books if they were changed, at which point you might as well switch to 8ed. So I doubt that will actually happen. It leaves me, and a lot of others, in a difficult position:
- Play 40k, with it's cartoony kid-aimed background but a modern ruleset.
- Play 30k, in the background I like, but with much longer games and crappy rules.
Couldn't agree more - vehicles need some wider variance in damage results - i recon a d12 damage chart could give enough variety of results other than 'wrecked' or 'explodes'.
I used to love the way vehicles could throw a track and career out of control in 3rd edition.
Id also be tempted to stop glancing hits removing a hull point and i'd probably replace it with a roll on the d12 damage chart with a negative modifier to mute its effects appropriately.
And i wouldn't have 'rolling a 1 results in nothing' because there's nothing more annoying after getting your solitary damage roll than having nothing happen!
DaemonJellybaby wrote: If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game.
HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around.
It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.
But what If they play Xenos? I have always wanted to try 30k, but the idea of marines against marines against more marines... meh. Different folks, different tastes.
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
AOS didnt really suck, it had great ideas of only really needing the warscrolls to play, of stuff like heros feeling LIKE HEROS and so forth.
It failed because it had no inherant balancing factor
DaemonJellybaby wrote: If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game. HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around. It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.
But what If they play Xenos? I have always wanted to try 30k, but the idea of marines against marines against more marines... meh. Different folks, different tastes.
Sorry, I meant any space marine player who is annoyed by primaris. I think 30k should be thought of as a pseudo-historical game where it makes sense for marines to be fighting other marines, as opposed to 40k where its not quite right for two factions of space marines to be infighting.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
AOS didnt really suck, it had great ideas of only really needing the warscrolls to play, of stuff like heros feeling LIKE HEROS and so forth.
It failed because it had no inherant balancing factor
Plus the "if you have a beard you get instant hits" bull crap
At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.
:(
Agreed completely.
I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.
Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...
At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.
:(
Agreed completely.
I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.
Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...
Yeah... I've heard tale of the "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...
At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.
:(
Agreed completely.
I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.
Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...
Wow.
I suppose thats the difference between tournaments and campaigns - people are going to try to 'win' a tournament.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.
It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.
It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.
Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.
It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.
Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.
Though do people REALLY use sergeants like that? That makes sense only pretty much if you are facing AP3 weapons. OTher than that...In average you save 1 guy from dying by sacrificing your vet serg. PRice of extra guy? PRice of artificer armour.
Rather than vet serg problem comes from IC's and anything with a reroll.
We just basically ignore the character at the front. Okay they get bit extra help there but less of an issue.
What I would like them to import to 7th ed:
-Movement stat
-Tweak some weapons(boost heavy bolter, take a second look at phosphex quad mortars etc)
-Could get by with ASM over AP -Multiple damage
Albeit several of those are heftier changes than they are going to do but in long run if FW were to stick with 7th ed as a base those would be doable changes(and ones we probably introduce ourselves for our home games)
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.
It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.
Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.
Easy - shots hit the models which form the basic members of that unit, and have a reverse-functioning 'look out sir' roll to trade shots off to another model (sarge or independent character) if you want to.
Presicion shots allow the firing unit to place shots on a non-basic squad member within a unit or character which has joined the unit.
FeindusMaximus wrote: I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.
I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.
It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.
It's only free money for FW if they print some 8th edition red books later on.
I half expect this decision to be in part to Alan Blighs illness.
Its been widely told upon his sad passing that it was a short battle with cancer. He appeared at the HH open day in Feb and said HH would go to 8th. FW followed up and changed the descriptions on their books in line with this announcement.
With Alan in hospital for a period of time (getting treatment of some kind I assume), FW would make a logical choice to hold off on 8th for HH and its announced that it would not change over straight away in the initial brief of 8th ed.
This 7.5 edition by FW direct seems to me like a stop gap while they sort out the studio after Alans passing.
I expect 7.5 to be an updated print of the core rules with the FAQ rolled in (watch multi bombing disappear!).
That said - I give it a year before we get 8th ed HH. 2 Tops.
People saying at least Angelus gives us all the legions in 7th ed seem to have also forgotten white scars!
Yeah... I've heard tale of the "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...
Yeah, I'll never play in that one again. One of the organizers is the worst TFG player I've ever had to play against. It's not run by the normal AdeptiCon Horus Heresy guys. THOSE guys are fething amazing and put on a hell of a tournament. I didn't know that they weren't running the friendly. From now on, I'll stick with their events.
Yeah, like I said in the FW rumors thread, I think AB's passing is having and will have an enormous effect on the HH line.
After initially being very frustrated by the news about the ruleset, I decided I should really give them the benefit of the doubt and respect that some "wrong" short-term decisions may need to be made to give them room to make the right long-term decisions.
The thing that kinda scares me about Alan's passing is he was the main writer for the Horus Heresy. I've heard that the reason Book VII Inferno took so long was due to his illness, and that eventually, it was "rushed" out to at least get it out before 8th edition. Anyone that has Book VII can tell you it's the worst book in the HH series. It needed some massive editing and play testing. The released book was a poor reflection on Forge World and not indicative of a book over a year in development. If this is the expected quality of the next books without Alan... it's going to be bad.
The worst possible thing that could happen is a Matt Ward style writer brought in from the main studio to finish out the series. If I want to read bad Horus Heresy fan fiction, I'll go visit Reddit. For the rules, I want them to walk the razors edge between "useless" and "Over Powered", and yet still maintain the unique flavor and identity of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. These two Legions will be the most difficult to bring to 30K. Their TO&E, tactics, strategy, and even appearance was all totally different from their 40K incarnations. For the Blood Angels- no Black Rage, mild Red Thirst, perfectionists much like the Emperor's Children, no Death Company, no Librarians, no Chaplains... The Dark Angels were even more different- no Death Company, no "tri-wing", all black armor, no Inner Circle, no hunting for the fallen...
It's like the only things we really know about HH Blood Angels is their quest for perfection in warfare, and that the Dark Angels wore black armor.
After Book VIII? Well, all that will be left for the Legions are White Scars. Who knows how long it will be before we see them? Will book IX be the siege of Terra with the Emperor, White Scars, and updated rules for the Legions that assaulted/defended Terra? And then the conversion over to 8th? Or will it be Book VIII, and then conversion over to 8th? Right now, I bet not even Forge World knows.
Tamwulf wrote: The thing that kinda scares me about Alan's passing is he was the main writer for the Horus Heresy. I've heard that the reason Book VII Inferno took so long was due to his illness, and that eventually, it was "rushed" out to at least get it out before 8th edition. Anyone that has Book VII can tell you it's the worst book in the HH series. It needed some massive editing and play testing. The released book was a poor reflection on Forge World and not indicative of a book over a year in development. If this is the expected quality of the next books without Alan... it's going to be bad.
The worst possible thing that could happen is a Matt Ward style writer brought in from the main studio to finish out the series. If I want to read bad Horus Heresy fan fiction, I'll go visit Reddit. For the rules, I want them to walk the razors edge between "useless" and "Over Powered", and yet still maintain the unique flavor and identity of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. These two Legions will be the most difficult to bring to 30K. Their TO&E, tactics, strategy, and even appearance was all totally different from their 40K incarnations. For the Blood Angels- no Black Rage, mild Red Thirst, perfectionists much like the Emperor's Children, no Death Company, no Librarians, no Chaplains... The Dark Angels were even more different- no Death Company, no "tri-wing", all black armor, no Inner Circle, no hunting for the fallen...
It's like the only things we really know about HH Blood Angels is their quest for perfection in warfare, and that the Dark Angels wore black armor.
After Book VIII? Well, all that will be left for the Legions are White Scars. Who knows how long it will be before we see them? Will book IX be the siege of Terra with the Emperor, White Scars, and updated rules for the Legions that assaulted/defended Terra? And then the conversion over to 8th? Or will it be Book VIII, and then conversion over to 8th? Right now, I bet not even Forge World knows.
We know a ton about the Dark Angels. The Black Library books have been hugely important in divulging some details. The 6 Wings for one. We do have a Deathwing. We do have a Ravenwing. We also have an Ironwing, Dreadwing, Stormwing, and Firewing. We know they have access to technology that none of the other legions do, such as a Glaive variant that fires void shots. Their acid rounds for their heavy bolters, and unique plasma weaponry. We know that after the coming of the Lion, they became an extremely secretive organizations, as Guilliman has lamented many times. They have a lot of pride in being the 1st. The Legion made before all others. The Legion that all others are modeled on.
Yeah, I don't think near-term things like the remaining Legions or Angelus book are the troublesome spots.
The issue IMO is more with the events on the chart that haven't been covered yet or revealed, where his guidance and vision would have been key.
Spoiler:
The plan as of earlier this year was for 15 to 20 black books. And it almost seems like it has to be that many IF they continue the plan. Angelus is book 8, and they've talked about a Mars book since forever. WS have to fit in somewhere. They still need to cover the Shadow Crusade and Imperial Secundus, if not even more events. Then there's the Solar War and Terra, which will almost certainly be multiple books.
It's very sad that Alan Bligh won't be around to see HH to Terra, and that we won't get to see his full vision for it.
its great that FW are going to keep 7th, even better for people who dont want to shift to 8th for whatever reason, this includes all the xenos players.
and with a bit of luck this will encourage the community to do what they did with 8th fantasy, fix the rules ourselves for 7th, i would love to see a 7.5ed or 9th age for 30/40k
Shinzra wrote: So in terms of the two forgeworld index books coming out with the release of 8th, are these so you can use all fw models with 8th edition rules?.
Or are the new fw index books the 7.5/7th edition still?
Thanks all.
Those new books are so that 40K players can use FW models in 40K. All of the rules in the current Red Books will still be valid for 30K use.
Shinzra wrote: Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?
Cheers
No. It allows you to use SOME vehicles like sicarans in your 40k army. For legion army you will be missing every single infantry unit rule, row's, legion tactics etc.
If you were able to use it in 40k before you can use it in 8th ed.
Shinzra wrote: Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?
Cheers
No. If you want to use it like a Legion army, you have to stick playing 7ed like currently.
The index books are to replace the Imperial Armour books - FW make tons of models for 40k that aren't anything to do with the Horus Heresy (like Elysian Drop Sentinels) and lots of their Heresy-era stuff is also available in 40k as 'relics' (like Sicarans and Fellblades). The aindex books contain the 8ed 40k rules for those models.
You could use the Index books and the Space Marine book to field your 30k models, but you wouldn't have the special units or primary's and obviously no rites of war. You'd be playing a 40k space marine army, just with 30k models.
The governing assumption here seems to be that FW not telling us *anything* about the future of 30k now that 8th edition is coming out means that they will be keeping it 7th for now and then releasing an 8th edition book later on, and pages 3 and 4 of this thread confirms this, but I’d like to probe another possibility that has me uncomfortable (I hope I’m wrong, but I need some reassurance). The disturbing rumor I have come across (from a close friend who is much deeper into games workshop stuff than I am) is that GW will be taking select pieces of 30k over from FW, and that this is why 30k is not being put on the front burner by FW currently, since they have not decided exactly what its future will be and how much will be released as generally available GW stuff. How likely is it that GW, and not FW, will at some point print generally available 30k rules as an alternative to or perhaps even as something fully compatible with 40k? What if *many* Forgeworld-exclusive models will be released in plastic by GW in the coming year just like the Nurgle drone… the Spartan, being one of their most popular vehicles, is likely going to be one of them, my friend surmises. I mean… I hope not, but I’m wondering if anybody has heard any news on 30k… why has all official mention of the rules for 30k disappeared, and why has Forgeworld not sent an announcement to reassure 30k players, who honesty spend a tremendous amount on their products?
MKachen wrote: The governing assumption here seems to be that FW not telling us *anything* about the future of 30k now that 8th edition is coming out means that they will be keeping it 7th for now and then releasing an 8th edition book later on, and pages 3 and 4 of this thread confirms this, but I’d like to probe another possibility that has me uncomfortable (I hope I’m wrong, but I need some reassurance). The disturbing rumor I have come across (from a close friend who is much deeper into games workshop stuff than I am) is that GW will be taking select pieces of 30k over from FW, and that this is why 30k is not being put on the front burner by FW currently, since they have not decided exactly what its future will be and how much will be released as generally available GW stuff. How likely is it that GW, and not FW, will at some point print generally available 30k rules as an alternative to or perhaps even as something fully compatible with 40k? What if *many* Forgeworld-exclusive models will be released in plastic by GW in the coming year just like the Nurgle drone… the Spartan, being one of their most popular vehicles, is likely going to be one of them, my friend surmises. I mean… I hope not, but I’m wondering if anybody has heard any news on 30k… why has all official mention of the rules for 30k disappeared, and why has Forgeworld not sent an announcement to reassure 30k players, who honesty spend a tremendous amount on their products?
I'm not sure that I follow you here. FW is GW. The FW index books will give us 8th edition 40K rules for many FW kits generally associated with 30K. The line between 30K and 40K KITS is blurring even as FW sticks with 7th edition for now for the 30K GAME. And I think we'll see more of this, because eventually the 30K Mechanicum kits will probably get 40K rules as well.
Regarding GW plastic kits, I think a plastic Spartan would make a lot of sense as a future plastic kit, and it'd be great for 30K and 40K players. Just like plastic Mk. 3 and 4 armor has been.
I think the reason there hasn't been more information is because that mock-up of a book cover they showed had no other supporting pages - i think that they haven't even started working on it yet, just releasing the cover to reassure us which edition it was going to be based on and that our book collections are all still valid/useful for gaming.
Assuming that - if we have ideas for things to be kept/changed/introduced, now is the time to put them in an e-mail and send it in!
I meant that my concern is that new 40k releases might end up cannibalizing existing 30k kits. I don't mean like in the sense of the marines or contemptor in Calth or the stuff in Prospero, b/c 1) the marines in those boxes are upgradable with FW heads, torsos, and shoulder pads, and 2) the contemptor and the terminators don't nearly have the level of detail possessed by the corresponding FW products. My concern is that, like the drone in the new set, GW will release generally available, plastic kits that *replace* older FW kits, and that the lag in official updates to 30k is in part helping to make that more of a possibility. I say this b/c I didn't mind 30k stuff being officially 'compatible' (though occasionally broken) with 40k stuff, while I really really like the fluff/ lore-level separation b/w 30k and 40k in 7th. So, it frustrates me when ancient vaults are said to be opened and ancient technology 're-emerges' along with Roboute Guilliman if that ancient technology will just end up being plastic kits of the FW models that many of us already have.
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?
godardc wrote: So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?
Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?
godardc wrote: So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?
Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?
Which means don't bother and none of the books are safe. The game is dead until it updates to 8th.
godardc wrote: So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?
Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?
Which means don't bother and none of the books are safe. The game is dead until it updates to 8th.
Or in better shape than ever and that it could have been in 8th.
godardc wrote: So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?
The whole point of FW sticking with 7ed is so that they don't have to update the red army books, since they don't have the manpower at the moment.
So they should be safe to buy, and don't expect any updates any time soon!
Well, I think 'dead' is a little dramatic. It could be 'dead to you', of course.
Personally, I think it's a game very much in a holding pattern, and that's not a good place to be in business. 30K is simply not going to have player growth by sticking with a system that no one else will be playing anymore. The crossover appeal was an important part of the game for many people, and this drives the game into even more of a niche. And whether one likes it or not, 8th edition is going to be very successful and will probably pull some 30K players back to 40K. There may be some migration to 30K by 40K players who prefer 7th edition, but the catch there is that 30K strips out some of the uniquely 7th edition items that people may be attracted to.
An interesting question is whether slower growth or even a decline is automatically a bad thing from FW's perspective. They've always been a boutique, and seemed to have a difficult time keeping up with the demand for 30K even with the late Alan Bligh leading them. Maybe they'll be happier and better able to please a smaller group of heresy and resin addicts going forward rather than the wider audiences that the plastics brought in.
The thing i'm noticing is that the people who like the idea of a custom ruleset to finally fix that un-hittable magnus etc don't seem to feel the need to express it unless confronted with a wall of negativity, doom and gloom from the people who jumped into 8th with both feet first.
I think 8 had potential, but the idea died in the execution - they tried to 'get rid of deathstars' and just made them bigger; they declared that every vehicle was an assault vehicle but then decided that you can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, effectively making every vehicle a non-assault vehicle; this is just what i've been paying attention to (and i haven't been looking) but i know there are a whole load more ripe absurdities (check out crabblesworths 8th edition sample batrep)
I know they are committing to a yearly FAQ, but to me that means they will come up with a half-baked idea, slap it in the FAQ and wait for us poor schmucks to point out the failures - and then 'fix' it a year later..
40k needed the 8th edition to get rid of formations and take the psychic phase (and the powers themselves) back to what it was in 6th, not removing the 'initiative' value from the game!
I recon FW will bring back the 6th edition version of invisibility - a pain to deal with, but handleable.
8th ed would struggle a lot with several legions. Emperor's Children(I went away), night lords(LD changed dramatically), Sons of Horus(the most reliable reserve masters...Except now that's gone. Can't be more reliable than 100%!). Thousand sons would be in trouble with matched play with rule of 1 in play.
Then all sort of oddities like volkite chargers becoming 15" stand still&shoot eliter killer kind of gun. Laser destroyer also changed feel.
They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.
All Legions can *certainly* be handled in 8th edition in a flavorful way. Certain things wouldn't translate without effort and wouldn't operate in exactly the same way. But that was the case for even the least impactful edition changes in 40K. The issue isn't with rules writing, but with playtesting. That would take FW some time.
gorgon wrote: They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.
What on earth Sons of Horus can get? Everybody is 100% coming when they want and where they want. You can't improve on that. Different flavours but all are same with different name. And not much variety to be had when you arrive when you want where you want.
And gee. Fun if your ability is one you only get couple times in a game due to costing limited resources.
godardc wrote: So, if they update the game in august, they will they print new red books ? If so, I should wait
No... Red Books are not changing. It's just a new rule book, since the old one isn't available anymore. This rule book with be a streamlined 7th edition. Cleaning it up basically. The current red books are still valid, and expected to be valid until further notice.
gorgon wrote: They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.
What on earth Sons of Horus can get? Everybody is 100% coming when they want and where they want. You can't improve on that. Different flavours but all are same with different name. And not much variety to be had when you arrive when you want where you want.
And gee. Fun if your ability is one you only get couple times in a game due to costing limited resources.
Ridiculous. Initiative isn't the only thing that defines the EC, and if it was, then they should be jettisoned alongside the 2nd and 11th. In fact, I'll take it a step further and say that FW's representation of them isn't particularly imaginative and therefore was bound to suffer in any translation. They could use some revisiting anyway.
Regarding deep strike options, things like Trygon tunnels and Cult Ambush show that there's plenty of room to do different things. If you can't apply a little imagination here, then we really can't have a conversation about it.
SirDonlad wrote: The thing i'm noticing is that the people who like the idea of a custom ruleset to finally fix that un-hittable magnus etc don't seem to feel the need to express it unless confronted with a wall of negativity, doom and gloom from the people who jumped into 8th with both feet first.
I think 8 had potential, but the idea died in the execution - they tried to 'get rid of deathstars' and just made them bigger; they declared that every vehicle was an assault vehicle but then decided that you can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, effectively making every vehicle a non-assault vehicle; this is just what i've been paying attention to (and i haven't been looking) but i know there are a whole load more ripe absurdities (check out crabblesworths 8th edition sample batrep)
I know they are committing to a yearly FAQ, but to me that means they will come up with a half-baked idea, slap it in the FAQ and wait for us poor schmucks to point out the failures - and then 'fix' it a year later..
40k needed the 8th edition to get rid of formations and take the psychic phase (and the powers themselves) back to what it was in 6th, not removing the 'initiative' value from the game!
I recon FW will bring back the 6th edition version of invisibility - a pain to deal with, but handleable.
Normal human models disembark 9". They trade 3 inches for being able to assault out of anything. Faster models don't even lose that.
You actually don't know what a deathstar is do you? A unit that does a bunch of damage and has reroll to hit/to wound isn't a deathstar. A unit that has all that and a 2++ rerollable invul with a 2+ FNP (99.5% damage resistance and no, it's not that hard to get. You can even invis on top of that.) is a deathstar. The deathstar is dead.
It kinda sounds like you're just parroting someone else who was wrong tbh.
You actually don't know what a deathstar is do you?
Been playing this game since 2nd edition dude, I saw the deathstar being built and then attacked and destroyed by the rebel fleet.
ERJAK wrote: A unit that does a bunch of damage and has reroll to hit/to wound isn't a deathstar.
Nice strawman - but it still doesn't look like the real thing. Heres 4chans take on a deathstar..
A Deathstar unit is a unit in a wargame that is maxed out to be as powerful as possible within the game mechanics. This is normally a massive points sink, but is insanely powerful. The unit is typically maxed out by taking a powerful unit and adding one or more characters who can buff the unit even further. Normally only passive modifications are used, with short term buffs being too unreliable. Not all armies can field death star units.
The important part of that being how abilities and buffs are handed around willy-nilly; all helped by the 'look out sir' wound trading mechanic to keep those ability-traders in the fight.
ERJAK wrote: A unit that has all that and a 2++ rerollable invul with a 2+ FNP (99.5% damage resistance and no, it's not that hard to get. You can even invis on top of that.) is a deathstar.
When the thing that made deathstars was the unit buffs and wounds trading mechanic, making the buffs an area effect and resigning look out sir to an automatic feature of having certain infantry units nearby; the deathstar got much, much, much bigger - it involves multiple units now!!
ERJAK wrote: It kinda sounds like you're just parroting someone else who was wrong tbh.
godardc wrote: So, if they update the game in august, they will they print new red books ? If so, I should wait
No... Red Books are not changing. It's just a new rule book, since the old one isn't available anymore. This rule book with be a streamlined 7th edition. Cleaning it up basically. The current red books are still valid, and expected to be valid until further notice.
I got to have a look through Index Imperium 1 and 2 yesterday and was very pleased to see that none of the units in them had anything like the 'look out sir' rule in their profile - All the imperial deathstar-type arrangements have been slightly blunted. i like.
I really hope it's just those T'au drones which do that
I'm really trying hard to like 8th, the keywords thing had some merit for the fluff player, but i hear there's an exploit in that too.
If you're thinking of that "my chaos <Legion> is called Blood Angels, and my IG <Regiment> is called Blood Angels, so they're all Blood Angels with Blood Angels" nonsense, then GW already slapped that down and others like it like a game of whack-a-mole.
I do kinda love the whole "30K is dead if it doesn't go 8th!" thing especially if it's coming from folk who hopped on board with the plastic kits or folk who almost always played 30K armies against 40K opponents(ie, they didn't actually play 30K, they played 40K with a FW army list).
30K will do just fine - it did fine before FW actually made the HH rules, it did fine before GW bothered to produce plastics, and it will continue to do fine until FW eventually decide whether to shift to 8th-based rules or stick with their own 7th-based system. A lot of individuals who bought-in to Heresy as a subset of 40K rather than its own thing will end up screwed over, and obviously that sucks, but Heresy gaming overall isn't going anywhere.
I'm really trying hard to like 8th, the keywords thing had some merit for the fluff player, but i hear there's an exploit in that too.
If you're thinking of that "my chaos <Legion> is called Blood Angels, and my IG <Regiment> is called Blood Angels, so they're all Blood Angels with Blood Angels" nonsense, then GW already slapped that down and others like it like a game of whack-a-mole.
That sounds about right - apart from the bit where GW did something promptly; i don't believe it for a second! It must have been some staffer going rogue or something..
Yodhrin wrote: I do kinda love the whole "30K is dead if it doesn't go 8th!" thing especially if it's coming from folk who hopped on board with the plastic kits or folk who almost always played 30K armies against 40K opponents(ie, they didn't actually play 30K, they played 40K with a FW army list).
30K will do just fine - it did fine before FW actually made the HH rules, it did fine before GW bothered to produce plastics, and it will continue to do fine until FW eventually decide whether to shift to 8th-based rules or stick with their own 7th-based system. A lot of individuals who bought-in to Heresy as a subset of 40K rather than its own thing will end up screwed over, and obviously that sucks, but Heresy gaming overall isn't going anywhere.
So you think it's a good idea to restrict the size of the player base?
Yodhrin wrote: I do kinda love the whole "30K is dead if it doesn't go 8th!" thing especially if it's coming from folk who hopped on board with the plastic kits or folk who almost always played 30K armies against 40K opponents(ie, they didn't actually play 30K, they played 40K with a FW army list).
30K will do just fine - it did fine before FW actually made the HH rules, it did fine before GW bothered to produce plastics, and it will continue to do fine until FW eventually decide whether to shift to 8th-based rules or stick with their own 7th-based system. A lot of individuals who bought-in to Heresy as a subset of 40K rather than its own thing will end up screwed over, and obviously that sucks, but Heresy gaming overall isn't going anywhere.
So you think it's a good idea to restrict the size of the player base?
It's not exactly restrictive, there are plenty of us that have learned multiple editions of games or rules for multiple games at the same time. I'm sure people can grasp being able to play 7.5 HH and also still play games of 40k 8th (with the same models at least if not the same army list). You can never truely make everyone happy, and I get that some people (who knows truely how many) might have been the only HH player in their area and had only play 40k players to play against. That's fine but it's also not what 30k was meant for.
It was always meant to only be a game of 30kvs30k. Sure you could make it work ok with 40k armies (I have), but it's always been intended as it's own games system in a way, outside of the 40k mainstream (no formations, reliance on Force Org Charts, numerous 40k factions not existing in 30k, completely different and incompatible ally charts, etc...). If your 40k mates are supportive I'm sure they'll find a way for you to still play your 30k army with them (house rules), if not, you'll have to stick to 30k opponents or just fight your 40k friends with you own models but using one of the numerous flavors of marine that exist in 40k. This is far from a death knell for 30k lol, if anything it will lead to it being more what it should be it's own discreet game from 40k.
Except it wasn't created as a different game. It was the same game with different armies and missions. A different game wouldn't have been built on all the same rules.
How many people got into it because it was still 40k? A non-zero number. And making it not 40k now is lying to those people
DarknessEternal wrote: Except it wasn't created as a different game. It was the same game with different armies and missions. A different game wouldn't have been built on all the same rules.
How many people got into it because it was still 40k? A non-zero number. And making it not 40k now is lying to those people
Except it was a different game because you weren't supposed to use 30k armies with 40k armies. You could because they used the same base rules set, but just like old school kill team, it was a discreet game on its own.
I got into it because I could play Iron Warriors how I wanted to finally. The fact that it used the core rulebook had nothing to do with it. And the more time moved on the more differences between 30k and 40k became apparent as I outlined above. The fact that they both used 40k core rules made it easy to transfer over, and for some to try and use both 30k and 40k together, but that wasn't the intent. HH is a historical version of 40k, and now it's just becoming more discreet than ever. I think that's a good thing honestly. And like I said before it's not keeping anyone from using their models as 40k marines or Csm so they can get games every so often. And if you have a good group of people perhaps even you could all work together to houserule 30k 8th edition rules. But I don't think that this is going to overly restrict people. It will simply require adjustment.
Yodhrin wrote: I do kinda love the whole "30K is dead if it doesn't go 8th!" thing especially if it's coming from folk who hopped on board with the plastic kits or folk who almost always played 30K armies against 40K opponents(ie, they didn't actually play 30K, they played 40K with a FW army list).
30K will do just fine - it did fine before FW actually made the HH rules, it did fine before GW bothered to produce plastics, and it will continue to do fine until FW eventually decide whether to shift to 8th-based rules or stick with their own 7th-based system. A lot of individuals who bought-in to Heresy as a subset of 40K rather than its own thing will end up screwed over, and obviously that sucks, but Heresy gaming overall isn't going anywhere.
So you think it's a good idea to restrict the size of the player base?
Well... given how its restricted the player base in my local community, yeah I'm fine with it. While I like 8th edition, the tournament I played recently reminded me why I was glad to not play against most of the folks who play 40K here, but won't bother with 30K. On the first day of release, we were seeing armies that had 5 different factions in them, because people were trying to build the cheesiest crap they could come up with.
Yeah, if it means my 30K games aren't going to involve those players, then I'm perfectly happy with the "restricted player base".
djones520 wrote: On the first day of release, we were seeing armies that had 5 different factions in them, because people were trying to build the cheesiest crap they could come up with.
Tell them to play with the rules then? All armies must share a faction.
djones520 wrote: On the first day of release, we were seeing armies that had 5 different factions in them, because people were trying to build the cheesiest crap they could come up with.
Tell them to play with the rules then? All armies must share a faction.
Well you can get more then 5 in a imp key list 2(soon 3) in a chaos list and 3(4 or 5?) in a eldar list
My thing is I hate how simple 8th is on many things and I like scatter
djones520 wrote: On the first day of release, we were seeing armies that had 5 different factions in them, because people were trying to build the cheesiest crap they could come up with.
Tell them to play with the rules then? All armies must share a faction.
For the record, most of those super multi-faction armies aren't super great. Pretty much Guard conscripts, psykers, and knights are the only things that really work well outside their faction.
djones520 wrote: On the first day of release, we were seeing armies that had 5 different factions in them, because people were trying to build the cheesiest crap they could come up with.
Tell them to play with the rules then? All armies must share a faction.
Which is really issue only for tau, orks and necrons.
I'll be using whatever the current edition of the rulebook is. If at the end of the day my local group decide they want to stick with 7.5 after it moves on, I'll do so and just play the "new" rules when I venture out.
. As soon as a codex dropped, and 
