Well, they're stretching info at this point to keep it going until release, and a lot of it we have already been able to deduce or guess at this point, which makes it feel less fresh.
Atleast there's some hard confirmation of things like no front/side/back.
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it looses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
A trukk armed with a grabby klaw and Wrecking ball on the other hand.. Now even the Ork Vehicles are just as krumpy!
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
Agreed. Honestly, Trukk would have been a really interesting one to show instead.
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
Even as not an ork player I think this is a good way to show things like ramming or tank shocking, vs the old rules. I'd love to see vehicles get bonuses from charging when equipped with things like dozer blades etc. Also gives me hope that things like Sammeal in his land speeder might actually be able to fight in combat now.
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
It could be that Quantum Shielding is gone, or maybe replaced by a self-repair mechanic that recovers wounds. Or maybe the lack of degradation in abilities is unique to Necrons due to Living Metal.
This goes back to my original point, though. If you're going to show us the Annihilation Barge, then show it properly, with its full rules and weapon loadout. There's so little information here. It's like GW heard of the concept of a teaser but didn't quite manage to grasp the whole thing.
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
Agreed. Honestly, Trukk would have been a really interesting one to show instead.
Fair point.
Maybe some big necron vehicles will have a toughness that decreases as they take more wounds, to mimic quantum shielding.
I'm wondering what this does for mechanized tactics overall in 8th. It may be that transports (are least Necron transports) don't deteriorate with damage. Rhino castles, LoS blocking, board control schemes, all tactics that at least seem like they'll be enhanced with more durable vehicles. I wonder if the costs will change as well.
Like everything in this so far, but by all that's holy they need to get the freaking transport rules out already since so much of assault and everything else depends on what those rules are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like everything in this so far, but by all that's holy they need to get the freaking transport rules out already since so much of assault and everything else depends on what those rules are.
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or a scenario where an ork truk and a rhino are trying to slam into eachother but continuously miss.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
Erm... What gun did the Grot use? Because it still has to Pen AV 14.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
...I'm sorry, what alternate universe do you live in where Gretchin can damage things in melee?
Land Raiders didn't *care* about having to hide in terrain as much, simply since it was a specialized subset of weapons that hurt them (haywire/grav/d). The easiest way to immobilize one was to fish for a 6 on a Grav Cannon. Of course, this speaks more to Grav being too good, rather than vehicle rules as a whole.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
Erm... What gun did the Grot use? Because it still has to Pen AV 14.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or a scenario where an ork truk and a rhino are trying to slam into eachother but continuously miss.
I could easily see the ork driver doing that Could bounce around too much for the rhino to get a proper bearing
Land raiders dying wasn't why they weren't used in 7th. It's their points cost versus killynes so to speakl that was the real problem.
Also this is actually a hidden buff for assault heavy armies. You managed to charge that piece of moblie artillery? You may not have damged or killed it but it is now useless for a turn.
Land Raiders didn't *care* about having to hide in terrain as much, simply since it was a specialized subset of weapons that hurt them (haywire/grav/d). The easiest way to immobilize one was to fish for a 6 on a Grav Cannon. Of course, this speaks more to Grav being too good, rather than vehicle rules as a whole.
Can they still be immobilized by a bush? Yes they can. Can they still be one shot by a penetrating hit? Yes they can.
My point is that game abstractions can always be silly if you make them out to be. At least now they're uniformly silly and don't require a bunch of exceptions and special cases. In my opinion, it's a marked improvement.
How will charging work with vehicles turning, anyway? Can you turn a battlewagon from side to front while charging with it to get another couple inches of range?
Will you still need to charge one of the units you shot at, or can you shoot at something and charge at something entirely different now? Even if you can't, will the "can charge guys in a transport if you shot the transport and it popped" rule remain?
Will our games consist of vehicles Tokyo Drifting around with the side toward the enemy until it's time to ram stuff? Because if that's the case it's funny enough that I'll take back... Some of the bad things I've said about 8th.
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
All abstractions for the sake of a quick, fun and balanced game. You really can't imagine any situation where the guy a tank is trying to run over simply dives out of the way? Also, you're looking at it like player actions are the actual, chronologically accurate representation of events. In the game world, all of these things are happening simultaneously. Grots don't just move ten feet, then stand there and wait to be charged by a Land Raider, which then just comes to a dead stop and waits for the grots to move away again. We just have to play it that way because... well, it's a turn-based game.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
It's quite safe to say that that falls into the same category as "my conscripts still need a 5+ to hit an Imperator Titan from 2" away". Yes, it's silly that they can't hit something that is literally the broad side of a barn (or cathedral, as it were), but that's just what we get for doing things with dice and paper. Whether 40k should have size modifiers to hit in general is quite a separate discussion, and basically comes down to granularity vs ease of play.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or there's a rule that says vehicles can effectively charge/move through blobs of infantry which would make sense. Even just a better move on result of disengaging.
And on the FPS angle, I've tried running people down with tanks, far less effective than cars or trucks in the same games 90% of the time. You're loud, visible and rather slow or bouncing around while going full tilt. Give me a jeep, I'll terrorize anyone dumb enough to poke their head out by chasing them around. Tank, I'm just using the gun if I'm trying to kill them and take the kill if they don't bother to run while I'm on my way through.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
All abstractions for the sake of a quick, fun and balanced game. You really can't imagine any situation where the guy a tank is trying to run over simply dives out of the way? Also, you're looking at it like player actions are the actual, chronologically accurate representation of events. In the game world, all of these things are happening simultaneously. Grots don't just move ten feet, then stand there and wait to be charged by a Land Raider, which then just comes to a dead stop and waits for the grots to move away again. We just have to play it that way because... well, it's a turn-based game.
It's not so much the person is diving out of the way that's the issue, so much as the fact that there's a significant violation of common sense that the tank in question has ground to a halt just because a bunch of enemy models are walking in front. A Space Marine is an angel of death, not a grumpy Times Square taxi driver having to deal with tourists clogging up the roadway.
Edit: After seeing the new, this is the most poorly-timed analogy I could have used.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
All abstractions for the sake of a quick, fun and balanced game. You really can't imagine any situation where the guy a tank is trying to run over simply dives out of the way? Also, you're looking at it like player actions are the actual, chronologically accurate representation of events. In the game world, all of these things are happening simultaneously. Grots don't just move ten feet, then stand there and wait to be charged by a Land Raider, which then just comes to a dead stop and waits for the grots to move away again. We just have to play it that way because... well, it's a turn-based game.
It's not so much the person is diving out of the way that's the issue, so much as the fact that there's a significant violation of common sense that the tank in question has ground to a halt just because a bunch of enemy models are walking in front. A Space Marine is an angel of death, not a grumpy Times Square taxi driver having to deal with tourists clogging up the roadway.
So just like bikes getting locked in combat (what happens now). I zoom along at 50 mph then stop to fight you. The game has rules and is not a simulation of reality.
The internet is full of whiners, and literally, no matter what you do you'll have people complain and threaten to take their toys and go home. If they say they are not going to change their mind, screw em, why waste your time pretending it's discourse when they just want a platform to QQ.
It's not so much the person is diving out of the way that's the issue, so much as the fact that there's a significant violation of common sense that the tank in question has ground to a halt just because a bunch of enemy models are walking in front. A Space Marine is an angel of death, not a grumpy Times Square taxi driver having to deal with tourists clogging up the roadway.
Again, just because you can't move it any further during your turn doesn't mean that it represents the in-universe tank grounding to a halt. It just represents the split second the tank is passing by the enemy troops, and their chance of reprisal. I know you don't look at every other in-game action this way, otherwise you'd be complaining that the game is unrealistic because each army takes turns standing still while the other side tries to shoot at them.
There are lots of artificialialities in a game like this, by necessity. Not everything can be done realistically. Same way you can fire a Russ cannon right over the heads of your infantry and not have the muzzle blast end up doing terrible things to them or large blasts going off and not shrouding the area in smoke and dust making it impossible to see through. I think the vehicle CC mechanics may end up the same way, as long as they're decently balanced and functional I can live with it.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
I am... very confused. What exactly are the grots trying to accomplish? The land raider can still fire at anyone it wants if they keep disengaging. Why did the Landraider charge at all? But anyways, in the example you gave, I rather imagine the grots could be climbing over on the vehicle, trying to jam it's treads, blocking the pilot's sight, etc. The pilot in turn is trying to knock them off and/or crush them. He could just ignore them and drive over them.... in the same way any other unit could just ignore the unit it is engage with and try to walk/dodge past them.
Yes, vehicles probably should have some equivalent of HoW when charging. But honestly it's not really that odd to me, having had bikers charge into rippers which somehow totally stopped my bikers. Oh, and how hard my bike rams into something is based on the personal strength of the rider.
So, now at least we just have one set of simple rules that won't always correctly model the real world, rather than a dozen sets of hideously bloated rules that won't always correctly model the real world. Progress in my mind.
I don't know. Pod and frag is gone, but that always seemed a bit cheap to me anyway. I'll take off the heavy flamers and put the meltas back on probably. No biggie. Keep the frag cannon for if they fail to take me out.
Martel732 wrote: I don't know. Pod and frag is gone, but that always seemed a bit cheap to me anyway. I'll take off the heavy flamers and put the meltas back on probably. No biggie. Keep the frag cannon for if they fail to take me out.
Well that's assuming that the range on the frag cannon and heavy flamer will be the same as the standard flamer.
There's no guarantee of that anymore
I"m assuming it is. I'm not that worried about it. If my jumpers become legit again, that's all I really care about. Seems like my pistols are better, too.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
I am... very confused. What exactly are the grots trying to accomplish? The land raider can still fire at anyone it wants if they keep disengaging. Why did the Landraider charge at all? But anyways, in the example you gave, I rather imagine the grots could be climbing over on the vehicle, trying to jam it's treads, blocking the pilot's sight, etc. The pilot in turn is trying to knock them off and/or crush them. He could just ignore them and drive over them.... in the same way any other unit could just ignore the unit it is engage with and try to walk/dodge past them.
Yes, vehicles probably should have some equivalent of HoW when charging. But honestly it's not really that odd to me, having had bikers charge into rippers which somehow totally stopped my bikers. Oh, and how hard my bike rams into something is based on the personal strength of the rider.
So, now at least we just have one set of simple rules that won't always correctly model the real world, rather than a dozen sets of hideously bloated rules that won't always correctly model the real world. Progress in my mind.
See, if the game allowed models to "push" other units with lower toughness/wounds. Maybe make semi-random, or something akin to Bulldoze in Warmachine.
Other abstractions (difficulty disengaging from melees) were relatively believable for assorted reasons (The Assault Marines only disengage as a unit, etc) while "I go you go" is a general compromise for simplifying overall game flow so you're not doing something like "impulse turn base" ala Starfleet Battles.
Rather, an entire form of movement was removed from the game, alongside the options it allowed (disrupting enemy battlelines, setting up AOEs, moving stuff out of cover, etc).
I'd be surprised if tanks and the like didn't do an automatic d3 mortal wounds when charging (maybe even d6) as is the case with most big things in Sigmar (or at least will do so on a 4+).
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or they just put in a Tank shock rule for certain big tanks like in your example.......welcome to early panic, (not meaning you are wrong, but just early)
MagicJuggler wrote: See, if the game allowed models to "push" other units with lower toughness/wounds. Maybe make semi-random, or something akin to Bulldoze in Warmachine.
Other abstractions (difficulty disengaging from melees) were relatively believable for assorted reasons (The Assault Marines only disengage as a unit, etc) while "I go you go" is a general compromise for simplifying overall game flow so you're not doing something like "impulse turn base" ala Starfleet Battles.
Rather, an entire form of movement was removed from the game, alongside the options it allowed (disrupting enemy battlelines, setting up AOEs, moving stuff out of cover, etc).
I could see the value in having something like tank shocked tied to impact hits for multiple unit types, but honestly it wasn't a particularly common tactic, and I don't think it's loss will really hurt the game.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.
I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.
For all of you who have been screaming "SPAM DROP PODS" at me this edition.
How good do you think drop pods are going to be in close combat?
Perhaps you will be able to drop pod on enemy units (like in Helldivers with supply drops, but you usually ended upp hitting yourself and/or your friends). I would guess that would be WS 6+ with 2 attacks (in Helldivers it would have been WS 1+, 4 attacks with strength D).
Helldivers would also give a Thunderhawk close combat attacks.
Edited: Changed a sentence.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Annihilation Barge confirms that Necrons will still be Ld10.
For all of you who have been screaming "SPAM DROP PODS" at me this edition.
How good do you think drop pods are going to be in close combat?
Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?
Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?
I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:
Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?
I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:
your drop pods.
I am happy to see them neutered.
Meanwhile, my rhinos are looking amazing.
My Rogue Trader Era Crimsion Fists approve of this message. Tiny Rhinos for the win!
Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?
I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:
your drop pods.
I am happy to see them neutered.
Meanwhile, my rhinos are looking amazing.
Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."
Spoken differently:
That's what you GET!
Paint it any way you like, it still doesn't reflect well on you.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.
I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.
Troll harder.
Sure, pics or it didn't happen.
Tank shock was a rule that never had any meaningful use in games with even moderately efficient list. Mostly because those didn't use vehicles. The rule was pointless in practical 40k because the vehicles that did get used either A)never survived long enough to get close to anything B) Didn't move at all the entire game or C) Didn't really care that crap was in front of them.
It was a stupid niche rule that was entirely there for one or two cinematic moments across hundreds of games and so that it would be funny to think about Stormsurges blowing up to it. It was never practical, it was never tactical, it was barely ever useful and it doesn't matter AT ALL that it's gone.
Cling to clunky garbage rules as much as you want, doesn't make them good.
My concern is how transports will be able to drop off their troops, charge in, and tarpit a whole different unit.
What could make up for this is if you were still allowed to shoot at the vehicle while in close combat with it (so long as there aren't any enemy troops also in the CC). It would make sense logically as armor without infantry support is usually terrible in real life. A vehicle sitting in front of you can't compel you to punch it. And it's a massive target compared to infantry.
steerpike92 wrote: My concern is how transports will be able to drop off their troops, charge in, and tarpit a whole different unit.
What could make up for this is if you were still allowed to shoot at the vehicle while in close combat with it (so long as there aren't any enemy troops also in the CC). It would make sense logically as armor without infantry support is usually terrible in real life. A vehicle sitting in front of you can't compel you to punch it. And it's a massive target compared to infantry.
Yeh this is a big worry if they don't address it in the core rules.
10 Warp Talons are bursting down the flank in a maneuver that has wrong footed their Ultamarine opponent with nothing in their way. But wait! That's not totally true - there is a rhino! The Rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn, so the rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn, so the rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn.
30 space marines are hunting down what's left of a minimum sized Guard platoon consisting of 25 guardsmen in 3 Chimeras. The Guard are toast. But no wait! They've headed straight towards the marine force and jumped out their vehicles! Now they are shooting at them and the Chimeras are charging a marine unit each - oh the bravery! Now the Marines have to fall back and can't do anything, so the guard repeat again and again. This takes place as a running battle over miles of ground due to the weakness of the guards lasguns, but this does not deter the guard! Eventually, after whittling down the marine numbers for hours, they finally kill the last one. Poor marines - they never stood a chance... Cadia lives!
Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.
ross-128 wrote: As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.
The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.
Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.
Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.
I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.
Troll harder.
Sure, pics or it didn't happen.
Tank shock was a rule that never had any meaningful use in games with even moderately efficient list. Mostly because those didn't use vehicles. The rule was pointless in practical 40k because the vehicles that did get used either A)never survived long enough to get close to anything B) Didn't move at all the entire game or C) Didn't really care that crap was in front of them.
It was a stupid niche rule that was entirely there for one or two cinematic moments across hundreds of games and so that it would be funny to think about Stormsurges blowing up to it. It was never practical, it was never tactical, it was barely ever useful and it doesn't matter AT ALL that it's gone.
Cling to clunky garbage rules as much as you want, doesn't make them good.
I missed the "6th or 7th" bit, oops. I'm sure I can run into other folks that use it though, especially since Genestealer Cults are a thing. Camacho's army was 7th ed and used an Obelisk for Thunderblitzing.
My main experience with Tank Shock/Ramming has been for moving units out of cover, since as a Chaos player, Ignore Cover shooting isn't exactly something I have the consistent luxury of (sure, I can Psychic Shriek and all, but still...). Usually, I find the Rhinos tend to live longer enough to actually set up zones of control near multiple objectives ("you move here, I push you off"), simply because there are enough small units of MSU Spawn, Bikers, Flesh Hounds, Termicide, etc. that are more immediate threats.
Perhaps I'll get some photos up if I get a game in this weekend. Still settling into New York.
digital-animal wrote: I thought that you could choose to stay in combat if you wanted?
Yes you can. So the 10 Warp Talons get stuck in combat with a Rhino all game rather than fall back... Great!
I'm not saying that GW haven't addressed this. I'm saying IF they haven't - this literally will break the game. More than invisibility, more than Scat bikes, more than a never-ending glut of formations. Anyone with cheap transports will auto-win against those without. Just lock them in combat or keep shooting them when they fall back and charge with the transport again.
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."
Spoken differently:
That's what you GET!
Why would Power Gamers care? They'll just buy w/e ever the new power army is and continue winning all their games. Its called WAAC for a reason
Not everyone plays 40k by building a single army list and expecting it to be valid for the rest of all time like you see to do.
Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.
Its called arming your squads for every contingency. So Powerfist here and there will fix that tank, Perhaps a few other cc goodies to clear the vehicles.
In 2nd edition it was very much a standard thing to throw some 'just in case' gears on every other squad. And NOT game breaking btw
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."
Spoken differently:
That's what you GET!
I own and use drop pods AND rhinos and I will probably continue to use both.The fragnought is still riding the pod, even if he has to spend a turn out of range.
Martel732 wrote:I own and use drop pods AND rhinos and I will probably continue to use both.The fragnought is still riding the pod, even if he has to spend a turn out of range.
It was on the sneak peak for the new FOCs. All three of the ones that they showed us have a restriction: limit 1 dedicated transport per 2 units.
It may not apply to the other 11 FOCs, but it did to all of the ones that they showed us.
Might want to reread that FOC they showed us.
It says "May include one for each other choice." not "may include one for every other choice." which is what I think you read.
They mean: "for every choice of one slot that isn't a dedicated transport, you may take a dedicated transport."
You are correct that it says "one for each other choice."
And I see the problem.
The problem here is that "other" is ambiguous.
"Other" in relationship to what? In relationship to the dedicated transports, or in relationship to the other FOC selections?
They'll either have to change the wordings or clarify in either the main rule set or an FAQ.
Now that I look at it again, it can be read either way.
Yeah definitely not super clear, it just seems a little to drastic of a change to throw into an ambiguous wording in s small graphic.
If I were a betting man I would say that it is 1 per non dedicated choice, as they seem to be pretty adamant about the fact that you can "still play your army" other than the most spammyest of spammy lists (like full drop pod, all scatbikes, 50 riptides etc.).
Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.
Its called arming your squads for every contingency. So Powerfist here and there will fix that tank, Perhaps a few other cc goodies to clear the vehicles.
In 2nd edition it was very much a standard thing to throw some 'just in case' gears on every other squad. And NOT game breaking btw
wes
If you looked at my examples you would see the first one was Warp Talons. Warp Talons can't have any upgrades like powerfists. As can't a huge amount of units. I would start listing them for you but I don't want people to have to scroll for 5 minutes to get to the next comment. Not everyone is a space marine with access to a fist or an ork with access to a claw. Being able to lock any units in combat with a cheap transport vehicle is huge as you can effectively neutralise units which are far more expensive than the vehicle for multiple game turns. Especially against high cost armies who will have a lower unit count.
Now again, I'm not saying GW hasn't put anything in place to counter this. What I'm saying is that if they haven't, it most certainly does break the game.
I imagine we will see the counter for using vehicles to tie up CC units tomorrow. Imperial knights and a bunch of CC weapons are on the docket for tomorrow. From the FAQ this afternoon CC is super dangerous now, guess we will see.
Forcast wrote:Yeah definitely not super clear, it just seems a little to drastic of a change to throw into an ambiguous wording in s small graphic.
If I were a betting man I would say that it is 1 per non dedicated choice, as they seem to be pretty adamant about the fact that you can "still play your army" other than the most spammyest of spammy lists (like full drop pod, all scatbikes, 50 riptides etc.).
I gotta say this is the first one that I'm not so excited about. Not bitter because 7th tank shock was so bad people avoided it but this seems kind of backwards.
The literal charge into enemies(who's distance should change per vehicle) should be the 'to hit'. I actually think the unit charged should be the one to roll to see how many casualties they take and no one should get stuck in combat unless they want to keep trying they're luck against a car.
...............don't you guys remember interdimensional cable 2- man vs car? "Wouldn't the car always win?"
We needed somthing to bridge MC walkers and tanks but this seems just a bit silly
Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.
Its called arming your squads for every contingency. So Powerfist here and there will fix that tank, Perhaps a few other cc goodies to clear the vehicles.
In 2nd edition it was very much a standard thing to throw some 'just in case' gears on every other squad. And NOT game breaking btw
wes
If you looked at my examples you would see the first one was Warp Talons. Warp Talons can't have any upgrades like powerfists. As can't a huge amount of units. I would start listing them for you but I don't want people to have to scroll for 5 minutes to get to the next comment. Not everyone is a space marine with access to a fist or an ork with access to a claw. Being able to lock any units in combat with a cheap transport vehicle is huge as you can effectively neutralise units which are far more expensive than the vehicle for multiple game turns. Especially against high cost armies who will have a lower unit count.
Now again, I'm not saying GW hasn't put anything in place to counter this. What I'm saying is that if they haven't, it most certainly does break the game.
A rhino will at best be toughness 6-7 with a 4+ save. Your claws will be hitting on 3+, wounding on 5+ (at least) and lower the save by 2. With 2-3 attacks each you'll shred it the turn it rolls at you.
As for the chimeras/guard and the marines, a chimera wall coming forward to drive off marines in order to give breathing room to the guardsmen is perfectly fluffy and a legitimate way to utilise a tank in any game setting. Saying the chimera are charging is limiting your focus to them actively engaging in melee as opposed to simply trying to crush marines with a bulldozer blade as the marines fall back.
Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.
Its called arming your squads for every contingency. So Powerfist here and there will fix that tank, Perhaps a few other cc goodies to clear the vehicles.
In 2nd edition it was very much a standard thing to throw some 'just in case' gears on every other squad. And NOT game breaking btw
wes
If you looked at my examples you would see the first one was Warp Talons. Warp Talons can't have any upgrades like powerfists. As can't a huge amount of units. I would start listing them for you but I don't want people to have to scroll for 5 minutes to get to the next comment. Not everyone is a space marine with access to a fist or an ork with access to a claw. Being able to lock any units in combat with a cheap transport vehicle is huge as you can effectively neutralise units which are far more expensive than the vehicle for multiple game turns. Especially against high cost armies who will have a lower unit count.
Now again, I'm not saying GW hasn't put anything in place to counter this. What I'm saying is that if they haven't, it most certainly does break the game.
The warp talons will likely be able to kill the Rhino in a couple of combat rounds. But even if not you can stay in until another unit can help out, maybe a melta gun squad comes over, and you move out of combat then shoot with the melta gun etc. Warp Talons in your example can also presumably jump over terrain or other units to get away. I'm sure there are certain squads where this could be an issue, but they are likely few and far between. You are looking at squads that are unable to hurt vehicles in close combat. Honestly I'm looking at the Rhino charge as a way to eat overwatch from a squad so my better unit can get in unharmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is also certainly better than what happens to warp talons now if a walker charges them.
Now this, with the new faq make me curious how this will turn out for csm.
Destroyer blades, assaulting from vechicles, multipe units per transport and the vehicle itself charging.
So now with one rhino, you're assaulting three units and preventing three units from shooting if nothing else where before, you drove up in front of the enemy to be shot to pieces for the same cost.
I imagine havoc launchers will now have d6 shots, the model has 6 launch bays after all and the combi bolter also got better.
I might have to get me a few more rhinos lol. They (the blades) used to be auto hitting too, so who knows, maybe they will hit better than 5+.
Also, please GW, use this opportunity to make possession god specific lol.
Which also makes no sense with the new rules. I suppose it would change the amount of remaining wounds for taking damage?
Can't wait to see how this edition will affect our tanks.
Roknar wrote: Now this, with the new faq make me curious how this will turn out for csm.
Destroyer blades, assaulting from vechicles, multipe units per transport and the vehicle itself charging.
So now with one rhino, you're assaulting three units and preventing three units from shooting if nothing else where before, you drove up in front of the enemy to be shot to pieces for the same cost.
I imagine havoc launchers will now have d6 shots, the model has 6 launch bays after all and the combi bolter also got better.
I might have to get me a few more rhinos lol. They (the blades) used to be auto hitting too, so who knows, maybe they will hit better than 5+.
Also, please GW, use this opportunity to make possession god specific lol.
Which also makes no sense with the new rules. I suppose it would change the amount of remaining wounds for taking damage?
Can't wait to see how this edition will affect our tanks.
I will say that the "forcing at least one unit to not shoot" is a pretty strong upside that a lot of people seem to be under-estimating.
To make it better, it doesn't just force a unit or three to not shoot, it forces them to spend at least one turn attacking a cheap, empty transport that they otherwise would have wanted to ignore. That's at least one turn that an assault army can use to get more units across the gap, or that a shooty army can use to focus down other units that aren't stuck-in. If a Rhino is T6, with 5-6 wounds and a decent save, it could definitely make a pretty decent distraction by charging at something that would REALLY rather be shooting at a bigger threat right now. Though since they seem to be using side armor for the basis a Rhino might be T5.
Transport-charging can potentially be a defense against an assault-heavy army too. Every turn an enemy's assault units spend either fighting or falling back from a cheap, empty transport is a turn where they're not moving up the board and not assaulting more valuable units. I think it'll be interesting to see what tactics emerge from it.
Conscripts will probably still be the preferred tarpit option for IG, but Chimeras will be able to add that to the list of things they can do and may even be a better choice against an anti-infantry unit.
Honestly, for most vehicles there is no functional difference between LD8 and LD10.
Most vehicles are either single-model units or in squadrons of three or less. A LD8 squadron of three literally cannot take enough casualties to fail a morale check: they'd have to lose three models to do that, and then there'd be no unit left to make the check.
Vehicles generally aren't psykers either, so vehicles will generally never roll against their leadership stat unless they're the target of a Psychic Shriek or something like that.
What are the odds ForgeWorld are going to update their legacies too. It seems they will give us updated unit profiles, but the legacies aren't needed for that and aren't valid in their current form in 8th. Are we going to have a wait until they reprint their IA books for 8th to get those? That is, assuming they intend to keep them at all.
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.
It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."
Spoken differently:
That's what you GET!
What I hope is that GW makes good on their promise to keep the game balanced, that way we'll see different armies moving in and out of the top tier list, making the act of just finding the best army as soon as the edition comes out and selling their scatbikes or riptides for whatever the new thing is no longer a viable way to play the game, as the best army will change as time goes on. That way WAAC players will only be able to exploit broken stuff as long as it doesn't dominate tournaments and get fixed in the ensuing complaint storm.
Could bounce around too much for the rhino to get a proper bearing 
your drop pods.
