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8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/05/31 01:20:09


Post by: Quickjager


Greetings fellow warriors of Titan. I will be editing this post every so often to provide a quick overview of the state of Grey Knights as for now...

CURRENT STATUS - POST CA2018 Weakest Codex. We no longer have the best looking armor, that really sucks. GW doesn't know how to balance crap. Updating unit viability soonish. Probably 180ish point drop no matter the list you were using

SPECIAL RULES TO REMEMBER

Rites of Baby Smite: 1 MW at 12 inches target must be model nearest to caster. Unless target has Daemon keyword then 3 MW.

GENERAL WARGEAR RECOMMENDATION - Look at the Mathhammer to get a MUCH more detailed breakdown vs. X Toughness or DMG per point

-Psilencers are almost always best choice
-Falchions are almost always best choice
-Never take Incinerators, yes it hurts to say that I have 6 Interceptors modeled with Incinerators.
-When in doubt never worry about not taking a ranged weapon upgrade, stormbolters are nice.

GENERAL ADVICE

This is the edition of the horde gunline. You honestly want an odd number of wounds on a model due to plasma overcharge spam or the rarer autocannon. This means Terminators are destroyed very efficiently by both and as a result should not be taken, take Paladins instead because they take 2 shots to kill. Or just stick to Power Armor Grey Knights (PAGK) because while they do die easier, they are incredibly more point efficient than a terminator in I believe most every respect; especially while in cover or assault.

Grandmaster Dreadknights (GMDK) are the best unit in the codex, so you always have an reason to take an HQ.

You will rarely have more than 8 CP, think how you are going to use them.

CA 2018 CHANGES

New points per model - no wargear (Credit: Danarc)

Apothecary - 75
BroCap - 110
BroAnc - 90
BroChamp - 90
Chappy - 105
Dread - 150
GM - 130
GMNDK - 170
Interceptors - 21
LR - 200
LRC - 200
LRR - 180
Libby - 113
PallyAnc - 98
Pallies - 47
Puries - 19
Razor - 70
Servitors - 5
SR - 192
TechMarine - 55
Termies - 39
VenDread - 85

What the point differences come out to per model not including wargear

Apoth - 15
Bro Cap - 40
Bro Ancient - 38
Chaplain - 39
Dread - 22
GM - 30
GMDK - 20
Interceptor - 2
LR - 39
LRC - 44
LRR - 64
Libby - 44
Pally Ancient - 42
Pallies - 6
Purifier - 7
Techmarine - 36
Terminator - 7
Ven. Dread - 25

Draigo is now 180 for a whopping 60 point discount
Crowe is 80
Voldus is 153
Stern is 105, which is even cheaper than a normal Brother-Captain...?

Wargear -

Key - Power Armor/Terminator

Psycannon was 14/20 now 7/11
Psilencer was 4/10 now 4/8
Incinerator was 14/20 now 9/13
Heavy Psycannon was 30 now 24
Heavy Incinerator was 40 now 19

NO DATASHEETS CHANGES


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/05/31 05:25:00


Post by: Coyote81


To clarify, the Smite Psychic power does have variation from unit to unit representing their unique abilities. Like the purifiers, their smite is only 3" but does D6 mortal wounds instead of 1. BC Stern does a zone of banishment smite.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/05/31 19:48:41


Post by: Naaris


Not to start a controversy but in the leaked pictures of GK rules, there was nothing listed regarding transports... Anyone notice that?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/05/31 20:12:25


Post by: FinkleLord


Naaris wrote:
Not to start a controversy but in the leaked pictures of GK rules, there was nothing listed regarding transports... Anyone notice that?


One of the leaked images from 3+ showed they have access to all their normal vehicles.

Link here:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/grey-knights-8th-edition-leaks/


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/05/31 20:20:38


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Naaris wrote:
Not to start a controversy but in the leaked pictures of GK rules, there was nothing listed regarding transports... Anyone notice that?


They wernt listed because they're no different from the standard Space Marine version. It said to refer to that section of the book for vehicles


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 01:37:37


Post by: Quickjager


Currently it looks like there are two builds that jump out at face value.


The First...

involves using a set of Brother Captains in combination with Purifiers to push forward into melee combat where the Purifiers will be able to start using their D6 Smite to clear out the elite units your opponent has. The problem with this however is that Purifiers are far too expensive again to do this on a manageable level. They are no more survivable than before, in fact in many cases they are more vulnerable due to the AP system change meaning you won't get a full armor save.

Further the Rhino that you most certainly will be buying for them is much more expensive. Which would not be a problem if the models it was moving were cheap, this is due to a lack of saturation of targets so each rhino will be focused down where a random amount of your expensive models will simply die.

The Purifiers are much less choppy, they lost an attack. Shame.

But if you wished to push forward with this strategy, the plan would be having your Brother Captains in reserve and once your Purifiers are in position, deepstrike so that the Locus ability becomes active for them. This would minimize the opportunity for the characters to die, and would let you be much more mobile, it would also provide a choice of where the hammer blow would come. You COULD take Land Raiders as a transport for the Purifers, but I wouldn't advise it due to the high point cost, however if you did you could have a Brother Captain and Purifier squad in the same transport though due to how the transports work differently now. I would not take special ranged weapons on anyone now, the Heavy rule means everyone hits on a 4+ and you have to give up your free force weapon. The weapons themselves are underwhelming in what they accomplish.

The goal here is to get in, do a ton of damage in the psychic phase and roll forward with your consolidations to engage the rest of the enemy army. I do not think it will be too effective simply because we would field to few models to put proper pressure in a single place AND we would be suffering from perils very frequently. 1/18, but we would be be likely manifesting at least 9 powers a turn, so one perils would effectively remove a squad once every two turns. Yes I think it is dumb Grey Knights are periling on their own psychic chart.



The Second...

involves a much more reliable and imo stronger strategy of using our non-psychic buffs to create a extremely fast assault force.

Paladins, Apothecaries, Draigo, Dreadknights, and Interceptors. This sounds like our 6th and 7th edition manifestation doesn't it?

Due to the reserve rules of no more than 50% of the army may be is reserve we must have units to maintain a presence on the table. Those will be our Interceptors and trusty Dreadknights, whom continue to remain fairly imposing on the battlefield. Our TEQ will be deepstriking the same turn as everyone who shunts, as we get to chose our position perfectly we will be able to land an overwhelming strike on any part of the enemy army we wish. Our standard firepower has literally doubled for our stormbolters while allowing us to run and shoot every turn. The Dreadknight will continue to have our ranged weaponry quota due to the higher amount of shots each of the weapons have compared to the standard weapons.

The strategy is simple, pick the weak point and pile on until they crack. You can wait quite a while until you have to strike, with the Interceptors being able to claim objectives in the meanwhile. After the main enemy force breaks, we have access to GoI so at least one unit will be able to claim one objective per turn. Remember Termies are slower than normal so you want them to be the force that fences the enemy army in so they don't have to go chasing after high movement enemies.

I expect most GK armies to become like the second one. However depending on faction strategems we might see a slight shakeup .


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 03:59:29


Post by: Audustum


I'm not sure Rhinos are so critical. Purifiers can use Gate of Infinity now. Gate + Smite. Might be riskier on the dice but it's the trade-off for not getting shot to bits.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 04:27:09


Post by: Quickjager


Purifiers can only manifest one power per turn. If they gate they cannot smite.

Even if they could gate, they would be out of range when they land.

Also only ONE unit can use gate PER turn.

EDIT: If you use Purifiers, Rhinos are required no ifs ands or buts.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 0046/06/01 05:32:07


Post by: Audustum


 Quickjager wrote:
Purifiers can only manifest one power per turn. If they gate they cannot smite.

Even if they could gate, they would be out of range when they land.

Also only ONE unit can use gate PER turn.

EDIT: If you use Purifiers, Rhinos are required no ifs ands or buts.


Hold your jets, I was a little off but you seem more off.

You're right that Purifiers can only cast 1 spell per turn, but Gate can now be cast on other friendly units besides the Psyker's own unit. You could Gate Purifiers in with somebody else. They'd have to charge or advance that round and cast it the following turn, but it is something you could try.

The other issue is that your "each power once per turn" thing is only for Matched Play. That's fine, but I'm reasonably confident that the people reading this thread aren't exclusively Matched players.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 05:52:49


Post by: Quickjager


I'm not a fan of sending off one 5 man unit to die by themselves really.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 13:57:11


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, I think about a Imperial Knight as an addon.
Any thoughts?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 16:38:40


Post by: Audustum


 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think about a Imperial Knight as an addon.
Any thoughts?


Definitely. The Crusader seems to fix most of our problems just like it did in 7th.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 16:43:56


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Psycannons are a good choice on normal guys again -1 to hit isnt too harsh.

But yea, intercepters, paladins, draigo, deepstriking, dreadknights, looks like our go to still


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 16:51:50


Post by: Audustum


I am actually thinking the Psilencer is a better choice for Terminators now. It's basically a super Storm Bolter and it's really cheap point wise.

That said, Psycannon still seems much better on a Dreadknight. The damage buff is what does it for me.

Do we think Apothecaries are worth it now that they are in an Elite slot?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 17:30:20


Post by: ghettob170


 Quickjager wrote:




So lets start number-crunching this, from what I can tell the Purifiers will still rely on a Rhino that is much improved so it isn't quite as bad. Purgation improves as Salvo no longer exists, but it has become actually CHEAPER to run this unit with max psycannons; at 152 points for a Sgt. and 4 Psycannons; at the same time with the loss of rending Psycannons have become much worse, with AP -1 so if anyone is in cover they get their normal armor save.

At a cursory glance it looks like Grey Knights have improved across the board with the core rule changes, even if our individual units have not become better. Voldus remains disappointing



Isn't -1 to armor save basically equivalent to rending in a lot of cases? For example, shooting at terms seems roughly the same now, right?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 20:50:48


Post by: Quickjager


Mmmmm no -1 isn't because of how the cover system works now. With a -1 AP were effectively shooting an AP 0 weapon; it also means that if we focus a vehicle with psycannons like we would previous editions, the vehicle is highly likely to not take damage at all.

Also remember the 4+ save multiwound characters enemy factions used to have? We no longer Instant Death those and deny a armor save at the same time. Rather everything got more wounds, better saving throws, AND our ranged weapons were slightly nerfed. I'm not sure if it is worth putting the heavy weapon on our TEQs, maybe on a purgation squad in a Stormraven or something for a fast attack, but that ends up costing more than a Dreadknight so....

Remember, there are no more Fire Points from vehicles.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 21:01:07


Post by: Lanlaorn


Just use Gate of Infinity on the Purgation squad.

IMO the key to this army is in using its psychic powers well, we have two great damaging powers, excellent mobility with one Gate per turn to compliment shunting and deep striking, and Hammerhand is still great of course.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 21:04:08


Post by: Quickjager


I forgot about Gate of Infinity for Purgation honestly.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/01 22:48:46


Post by: Coyote81


So brother captain stern double the range of smite on nearby GK infantry. If used with characters (or anything that doesn't have rite of banishment) now gets 36" smite.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 09:47:50


Post by: Quickjager


We also have access to from what I can tell the only 2++ save in the game. Librarian with Staff and Storm Shield.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 10:08:55


Post by: Coyote81


 Quickjager wrote:
We also have access to from what I can tell the only 2++ save in the game. Librarian with Staff and Storm Shield.


Oh, return to those days huh? I'm loving it. He's expensive but tanky.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 14:38:59


Post by: jeffersonian000


Can the Librarian take GK weapons? Seems like its still a SM Librarian, only with GK keywords.

Did anyone else notice Psyker Sevitors are now a thing?

SJ


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 14:55:30


Post by: Kraytirous


You're all overlooking the model I am SUPER EXCITED is finally usable! The Brotherhood Champion! He only has a lowly power sword, BUT his Sword Stance rule makes it so that he gets +1 to wound. That means that he wounds Land Raiders on 5s, he wounds Bikes on 4s, and he wounds toughness 4 models on 3s... But wait, there's more! Cast Hammerhand on him for an extra +1 to wound and he wounds Raiders on 4s, he wounds bikes on 3s, and other toughness 4 infantry on 2s!

Oh, you're being attacked and need to not die? Take up the shield stance, and suddenly he has a storm shield. Killed him, did you? He switches to sword stance and goes to work one last time before dying. Love this guy!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 15:50:53


Post by: Youn


I am going to be playing a game this evening with the following force. I want to test if we can deliver PAGK into melee in a much more effective method.

Spoiler:

Stormraven Gunship I (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Castellan Crowe [125]
Purifier Squad I (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177]
Purifier Squad II (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}

Stormraven Gunship II (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Purifier Squad III (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}
Inquisitor Livris (Hereticus, 2 inferno pistols, psyker) [79]

Nemesis Dreadknight I (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep)[245]
Nemesis Dreadknight II (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep) [245]
-- 1843 --


The FLGS at the moment is running this months tournament at 1850. So, I have to play test at that level.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 18:13:18


Post by: Audustum


Youn wrote:
I am going to be playing a game this evening with the following force. I want to test if we can deliver PAGK into melee in a much more effective method.

Spoiler:

Stormraven Gunship I (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Castellan Crowe [125]
Purifier Squad I (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177]
Purifier Squad II (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}

Stormraven Gunship II (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Purifier Squad III (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}
Inquisitor Livris (Hereticus, 2 inferno pistols, psyker) [79]

Nemesis Dreadknight I (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep)[245]
Nemesis Dreadknight II (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep) [245]
-- 1843 --


The FLGS at the moment is running this months tournament at 1850. So, I have to play test at that level.


Let us know how it goes! I'm curious to see how bad the hit to Purifiers really is.

You're Inquisitor can't have 2 Inferno Pistols though. They can trade a pistol for a pistol and the chainsword for a melee or ranged weapon list item, which is separate from the pistol list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 19:26:49


Post by: Youn


Hmm, missed that, Going to have to make that a Force weapon and an Inferno Pistol. So, 19 points available for force weapon. Darn, I have a nice model with two pistols. Really, she is there because, well. 1850 is an annoying point level for the new system.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 19:41:08


Post by: Aetare


At first glance i fear we've been nerfed, and I may have to resort to running knights as the allied elite of my army on top of regular marines.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 20:33:43


Post by: Audustum


Youn wrote:
Hmm, missed that, Going to have to make that a Force weapon and an Inferno Pistol. So, 19 points available for force weapon. Darn, I have a nice model with two pistols. Really, she is there because, well. 1850 is an annoying point level for the new system.



No worries. I'm now in the same boat with my power armored Inquisitor model.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/02 21:41:01


Post by: Quickjager


 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Can the Librarian take GK weapons? Seems like its still a SM Librarian, only with GK keywords.

Did anyone else notice Psyker Sevitors are now a thing?

SJ


Yea on the GK page it has a asterisk saying that this model is armed with a nemesis warding staff and frag/krak grenades.

All you do is pay another 30 for a storm shield to replace the storm bolter

From what I can tell the Librarian also keeps the Generic SM powers, because of how that chart says keywords Psyker pulls from them.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 03:37:19


Post by: TheMostWize


Audustum wrote:
I am actually thinking the Psilencer is a better choice for Terminators now. It's basically a super Storm Bolter and it's really cheap point wise.


I think the Psilencer is going to be better across the board. Just because of the extra damage per wound and volume of shots. Likely going to make my Purgation squad a Psilencer squad instead of Psycannons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 04:02:13


Post by: Youn


Ok, quick after action report on the above army list:

Played against 1850 points of Blood Angels.
1 Landraider, 2 Predators, 1 Furiouso dreadnought, 1 squad scout, 3 squads assault marines with jump packs, 2 tactical squads, 2-3 sanguinary priests and a librarian with jump pack.

Mission: Secure and Control.
Turn 1: I go first because my deployment is 2 Stormravens with everyone but 2 NDK inside of them. So, by rules I was done in 2 placements.
Top of Turn: Rocket across board with both Ravens. Unleash all shots into 1 predator leaving it with 2 wounds left.
Bottom of turn: BA player unleashed entire force into shooting 1 Raven. Total damage was 7 wounds. He learned, Flame cannons, assault cannons and heavy bolters aren't enough to take down a raven. Other lesson learned for other player. Though you might have jump troops, DON'T charge a stormraven. 1 Dead sanginary priest plus 1 near dead squad of assault troops to Overwatch.

Turn 2: Deploy all forces from ravens on ground. Move to within 3" of Predator + Land Raider. Psychic phase, Landraider takes smites from 2 squads, crowe, 2 dreadknights and an inquisitor. A total of 14 mortal wounds. Shooting phase dreadknights finish landraider.
Charges put me in combat with Severely wounded predator with 1 purifier squad. Rest of troops tied up with other two purifier squads plus inquisitor. Crowe takes on tactical squad on his own.
Bottom of turn: Other predator puts another 6 wounds on wounded Stormraven bringing it to 13 total wounds. Furiouso fails charge, Librarian and Sanguinary guard charge and assault one of the dreadknights. It goes badly for the guard.

Top of round 3: All firepower into somewhat healthy predator and dreadnought. Dreadnought is killed. Predator left with 1 wound. Psychic phase: 6 total smites pretty much decimate all troops left on the table. The 7th smite is the two purifiers in hand to hand with severely wounded predator. They roll 12 on smite, It does 3 mortal wounds to them, killing them. The predator takes 3 mortal wounds from demons dragging two purifiers into warp and is killed also.
Bottom of turn: Raven 1 is finally shot down. very little else happens.

Turn 4: smites plus shooting result in 2 scouts left alive on Blood angel side. Player concedes.

So, overall. If you can get the purifiers across the table. They are well worth their weight. You are only going to cast smite.

It should be noted that Castellan Crowe never managed to kill a single marine with his sword in combat. But he did manage to kill a land raider, a predator and 5 tactical marines with his smite.




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 04:49:50


Post by: Coyote81


I've been working on a similar list using Inquisition and blood angels in 2x Stormravens (Which I deem one of the best units in the game now, due to all the heavy weapons with no move and shoot penalty)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 04:53:55


Post by: Crazyterran


How'd the overwatch do so much? Overwatch is still hit on 6s, no?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 06:20:30


Post by: Youn


2 Multi-melta (1d6 damage) + 2 Missile (3 damage) + 12 Assault Cannon (1 damage) + 24 Bolter shots (1 damage) for Overwatch.

Unlike 7th edition it doesn't need fire arch and a vehicle can fire Overwatch.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 0030/06/29 13:45:08


Post by: zedsdead


Youn wrote:
I am going to be playing a game this evening with the following force. I want to test if we can deliver PAGK into melee in a much more effective method.

Spoiler:

Stormraven Gunship I (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Castellan Crowe [125]
Purifier Squad I (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177]
Purifier Squad II (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}

Stormraven Gunship II (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Purifier Squad III (5 man, 1 hammer, 2 psycannons) [177}
Inquisitor Livris (Hereticus, 2 inferno pistols, psyker) [79]

Nemesis Dreadknight I (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep)[245]
Nemesis Dreadknight II (2DF, H.Inc, H.PsyC, Telep) [245]


-- 1843 --


The FLGS at the moment is running this months tournament at 1850. So, I have to play test at that level.


Like the list.... was the Inquisitor effective and necessary ? how would you do 2k pts ?

Also can Dreadnoughts now take GK weapons or are they still locked into SM loadouts ?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/03 15:31:19


Post by: Youn


So, the inquisitor was actually 1 infernal pistol and 1 force sword as we noticed it cannot take 2 infernal pistols.

What it really ended up being is another smite on the table. And a powerful smite. I did roll an 11 on my smite roll vs his librarian resulting in an instant kill of that librarian. But at that point in the game, it was very obvious that the game was going to be over for the Blood Angel player.

On 2k, If I dropped the Inquisitor that would give me about 230 points to work with. I would have to play around with my forces to determine how that would play out.

Option 1: 1 Dreadnought carried by one of the Ravens.
Option 2: 2 Strike squads with 1 Hammer each no special weapon. (this is 2 more smites)
Option 3: 1 Purgation squad with 4 incinerators and 1 hammer (1 smite plus a huge amount of incinerator hits, this would ride in the spare spot of the second raven)

As you can see you can really play around with those last 230 points. My goal is to use the PAGK forces to get as many smites as possible and to deliver them into a 3" range of your opponent by movement on turn 2.

With only deploying 2 Ravens plus 2 Nemesis Dreadknights. You are effectively making increasing your chance of going first. You should always target the items that can do multi-wounds to your Ravens on turn 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, remember once you get into assault. You want to still be casting Smite. If you Perils and it wipes out unit. You will take pretty much everything around you with you into the Warp.

So, don't worry about that.

Always target the multi-wounding items. Remember Vehicles frequently blow up and take a lot of models with them. So, if you can force an explosion try for it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 02:01:31


Post by: Spartacus


Reposting my battle report from the thread on the General Board:

Little battle I played last night if anyone is interested, all from memory so bear with me. Images are to scale as best as I was able, but I'm no artist obviously.

1000 pts GK vs Tau

Tau list:

1 x Ethereal
2 x 5 Fire Warriors
2 x 5 Pathfinders
1 x 3 Crisis Battlesuits (2 Plasma guns, 2 missile pods, burst cannon, fusion gun)
2 x 10 Kroot
1 x Shaper
1 x Riptide

My list:

1 x Grandmaster
3 x 3 Paladins (mix of swords, halberds and some falchions)
1 x 6 Interceptors (halberds)
1 x 7 Interceptors (also halberds)
Everyone had storm bolters

We played plain old kill points, with secondary objectives, just to get used to the core mechanics. No detachments just bring whatever, but matched play rules otherwise. I won the roll and decided to go second. He castled up in one corner and I deployed 1 paldin squad and both interceptor squads, holding the rest back for deep strike.



Image is large, open it in a new window while reading the blow-by-blow.

Turn 1 Tau
My tau friend infiltrated in his 20 kroot and the shaper, and fired at the interceptors killing 4. his riptide and friends advanced and fired smart missiles at the interceptors also, killing one from the smaller squad. All 3 kroot units tried to assault and I was able to fell many with overwatch, he was forced to declare against multiple units due to tight spacing. He made the charge with one of his units and proceeded to wipe out the rest of the larger squad of interceptors! In reply the other unit of interceptor killed enough to force the rest to flee.

Turn 1 GK
I brought in all of my deep strikers around the Riptide(underneath the platform), shunted with the remaining Interceptors, and cast gate of infinity with my other Paladins, focusing on trying to annihilate it. In the psychic phase, purge soul from the Grandmaster failed to cast, smite from 2 of the Paladin squads stripped 2 Riptide wounds, and the interceptors used smite to kill one Fire Warrior. Storm Bolter fire killed 3 Kroot, 2 Pathfinders and 4 Fire Warriors. In the assault phase, 2 of the squads of Paladins successfully charged the Riptide. The Tau reserved overwatch supporting fire for my Grandmaster, who saved poorly losing 2 of his wounds. The Paladin squads battered the Riptide, leaving it with 5 Wounds remaining.

Turn 2 Tau
The Crisis suits came in on the Tau's right flank while the kroot chased the interceptors. Markerlights lit up the Paladins. Riptide flew out of combat and turned to blast one of the offending Paladin Squads, demolishing them all. The crisis suits then proceeded to kill 2 Paladins from the next squad (ouch). Kroot shooting killed another interceptor. The rest of shooting against the Paladins was ineffectual. The Kroot charged the Interceptors and lost 1 to overwatch fire, however made the long charge. Another Kroot was killed in the combat but they held their nerve.

Turn 2 GK
The Grey Knights charged forward. In the psychic phase one Fire warrior and one Kroot were killed by smite, the rest failing to cast. However the Grandmaster cast Purge Soul on the Riptide, rolling a 6. My friend rolled a 1 resulting in a difference of 6!!! 6 Mortal wounds would have been enough to finish the monster, however the Ethereal has used his ability last turn to give all Tau in the vicinity a 6+ FNP (effectively). He rolled a dice for each wound and managed 2 6's, which kept the damned thing alive with 1 wound remaining! In the shooting phase only 1 Pathfinder was killed, thanks to more 6+ FNP rolls. The last remaining Paladin tried to assault the riptide but was just short on his assault roll, but untouched by the huge swathe of overwatch. The other Paladins attempted another charge at the Fire Warriors, but were also short on charge range unfortunately. In the fight phase 1 more Kroot was slain.

Turn 3 Tau
The Tau Ethereal and Riptide hunkered back into their corner. Riptide was now only hitting on 6's, so did no damage to the chasing Paladin, however the Crisis suits blasted him easily with missile pods. The rest of the Tau were unable to wound the Gransmaster or Paladins. The Kroot Shaper and a lone fire warrior charged the interceptors. In the fight phase, Interceptors continued their bad run. losing one of their number while doing only a single wound to the Shaper in return.

Turn 3 GK
The remaining Terminators pursued the retreating Tau as best they could. The grandmaster again attempted to finish off the Riptitde with Purge Soul, but the roll off was indecisive. Smite claimed another Fire warrior, who were then finished off by Storm Bolter fire. Attempting to charge the crisis suits from a distance, the Grandmaster was unable to catch anyone. Yet another Interceptor was slain by the Kroot, and they could manage nothing in reply.

Turn 4 Tau
The Crisis suits focussed on the Grandmaster (lit up by marker lights) and cut him down with plasma and missile fire netting the Warlord kill for the Tau. Riptide was again unable to hit anything due to the damage it had suffered and the 2 surviving Pathfinders of squad B charged forward out of the ruins to block the path of the advancing Paladins, however their guns couldn't punch through Terminator armour. The interceptors again failed to do anything and the combat with the Kroot continued to stalemate.

Turn 4 GK
The last Terminators fired at the Riptide, and were rewarded when it finally toppled over. They crushed the 2 Pathfinders who were blocking their progress towards the Ethereal. The interceptors lost another of their number, leaving the Justicar on his own and starting to panic.

Turn 5 Tau
The Ethereal ran to safety, leaving his Crisis suits and pathfinders to deal with the Marauding Paladins. The Pathfinders attempted to target them with markerlights however performed poorly, scoring only 1 hit. Fire from the Crisis suits was only able to kill one Paladin due to the extra cover provided by the ruins. The Justicar was able to survive attacks from his 3 opponents but again unable to do anything in reply.

Turn 5 GK
In the final turn the 2 Paldins killed one pathfinder with smite, then cut the rest of them to ribbons with bolter fire. The Interceptor Justicar also cast smite, but suffered a perils of the warp on double 1's. He exploded taking the kroot and Fire Warrior with him, however the Shaper survived with one wound remaining. Their way now clear, the Paladins charged the crisis suits, however one was killed by a lucky missile pod hit in overwatch. The charge was successful however he was unable to do any damage.

That was the end of the game (stopped at T5 to allow for other battles to be played). We tallied up kill points and found that it was somehow 7 Points to 5 in favour of the Knights, however the Tau had also scored Warlord Kill and First Blood. On checking again we noticed that the last remaining Terminator was just inside the enemy deployment zone, scoring linebreaker and taking it out by one point!

Very fun battle lots of ups and downs. I would have certainly lost if we had played on, but we were just happy to test the new mechanics and found them very intuitive. It took us about 2 and a half hours to play however a lot of that was checking stats and rule wordings, which we can obviously cut down on as we play more.

My initial thoughts on the new rules:

1. Storm bolters are great, Grandmaster/Draigo to give them re-rolls is even better
2. Cover is a huge bonus for heavily armoured troops, they are cut to pieces quickly by big guns otherwise.
3. Fast units with big guns will be a big challenge for Grey Knights as they have always been

4. Based in Youns report - I'd like to try a Stormraven!



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 02:42:24


Post by: Audustum


These are all great battle reports! Thank you all for posting them!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 09:48:14


Post by: rowan739


I don the dex to hand but do we have a way to snipe out characters?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 10:12:41


Post by: Spartacus


rowan739 wrote:
I don the dex to hand but do we have a way to snipe out characters?


Purge Soul psychic power is pretty handy for exactly that.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 10:16:53


Post by: necronlad42


Has anyone else seen that the terminators/paladins/strike quads/interceptors+ can have the dreadknight CC weapons? 'Any model many replace his nemesis force sword with an item from the grey knights melee weapons list' The melee weapons list includes the dreadknight weapons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 12:19:44


Post by: casvalremdeikun


What Dreadknight loadout seems to be the best? I am leaning toward a Psilencer and Psycannon with a Dreadfist(yes, you are ALWAYS paying for a Dreadfist) and Greatsword. Should allow for attacking many different types of enemies. The Fist and Sword is the cheapest option now, but still fairly effective. Psilencers look like they will be great for clearing light infantry or even overwhelming heavy infantry with shots. Psycannons have a good amount of shots so they can take out heavy infantry quite well. The Incinerator is just too swingy for my liking. The Dreadknight teleporter looks like it can help ensure those weapons get in range.

The whole loadout comes to 225 pts though, so...yikes.

My Terminators come out to 255 pts with two Falchion pairs, a sword, a Halberd, a Hammer, and a Psycannon. Also yikes. 2 wounds and a butt load of attacks helps soften that blow.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 13:49:36


Post by: Coyote81


necronlad42 wrote:
Has anyone else seen that the terminators/paladins/strike quads/interceptors+ can have the dreadknight CC weapons? 'Any model many replace his nemesis force sword with an item from the grey knights melee weapons list' The melee weapons list includes the dreadknight weapons.


You are looking at the wrong list, look on the Grey Knight front page in the black box, it calls out the correct list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 15:41:33


Post by: Youn


So, I did find I had an issue killing my way though the following AM list.

three 50 man conscript squads.
three commissars with powerfist
three special weapons teams
three squads with hotshot lasguns, plasma guns and plasma pistol
three Infantry squads
three Wyvern
one Manticore
one command squad
one commander with plasma pistol
Saint Celestine plus 3 girls
three Armored Sentinels
two squads of ratling snipers
One master of Ordinance


I did manage to last until turn 5 but eventually pure attrition tabled me on that turn.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 0005/06/08 09:48:58


Post by: Lanlaorn


 casvalremdeikun wrote:
What Dreadknight loadout seems to be the best? I am leaning toward a Psilencer and Psycannon with a Dreadfist(yes, you are ALWAYS paying for a Dreadfist) and Greatsword. Should allow for attacking many different types of enemies. The Fist and Sword is the cheapest option now, but still fairly effective. Psilencers look like they will be great for clearing light infantry or even overwhelming heavy infantry with shots. Psycannons have a good amount of shots so they can take out heavy infantry quite well. The Incinerator is just too swingy for my liking. The Dreadknight teleporter looks like it can help ensure those weapons get in range.

The whole loadout comes to 225 pts though, so...yikes.

My Terminators come out to 255 pts with two Falchion pairs, a sword, a Halberd, a Hammer, and a Psycannon. Also yikes. 2 wounds and a butt load of attacks helps soften that blow.


I think you're forgetting to pay for the Stormbolters, so another +8 points there for the Terminators. Yikes indeed, I think I may just run Paladins, 25% more expensive but 33% tougher and an extra special weapon.

Did anyone else notice that Assault Cannons are Heavy 6 but Psycannons are only Heavy 4? How do I submit that for FAQ/errata?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 17:27:48


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Lanlaorn wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
What Dreadknight loadout seems to be the best? I am leaning toward a Psilencer and Psycannon with a Dreadfist(yes, you are ALWAYS paying for a Dreadfist) and Greatsword. Should allow for attacking many different types of enemies. The Fist and Sword is the cheapest option now, but still fairly effective. Psilencers look like they will be great for clearing light infantry or even overwhelming heavy infantry with shots. Psycannons have a good amount of shots so they can take out heavy infantry quite well. The Incinerator is just too swingy for my liking. The Dreadknight teleporter looks like it can help ensure those weapons get in range.

The whole loadout comes to 225 pts though, so...yikes.

My Terminators come out to 255 pts with two Falchion pairs, a sword, a Halberd, a Hammer, and a Psycannon. Also yikes. 2 wounds and a butt load of attacks helps soften that blow.


I think you're forgetting to pay for the Stormbolters, so another +8 points there for the Terminators. Yikes indeed, I think I may just run Paladins, 25% more expensive but 33% tougher and an extra special weapon.

Did anyone else notice that Assault Cannons are Heavy 6 but Psycannons are only Heavy 4? How do I submit that for FAQ/errata?
Nope, I remembered the Storm Bolters. 220 for the Squad, 8 pts in SBs, 14 Pt Psycannon, 13 pt Hammer comes out to 255.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 20:06:42


Post by: Lanlaorn


Ah that's it then, the Psycannon is 20 points for Terminators.

I don't know why, the weapon isn't any better on a TDA unit now since they no longer have Relentless, but all the special weapons cost more for Terminators.

Between this and other little things like the Assault Cannon being Heavy 6, Psycannon being Heavy 4 and that RAW the Dreadknight weapons are not limited to only the Dreadknight has me a little annoyed by how much effort went into the GK rules!

We'll see what the errata and future books bring I guess.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 20:22:35


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Lanlaorn wrote:
Ah that's it then, the Psycannon is 20 points for Terminators.

I don't know why, the weapon isn't any better on a TDA unit now since they no longer have Relentless, but all the special weapons cost more for Terminators.

Between this and other little things like the Assault Cannon being Heavy 6, Psycannon being Heavy 4 and that RAW the Dreadknight weapons are not limited to only the Dreadknight has me a little annoyed by how much effort went into the GK rules!

We'll see what the errata and future books bring I guess.


They're on more survivable platforms... that really is it in a nutshell. Plus Apothocaries bringing back that guy become more "valuable" the fancier a model they return to a unit.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 21:08:01


Post by: Coyote81


Lanlaorn wrote:
Ah that's it then, the Psycannon is 20 points for Terminators.

I don't know why, the weapon isn't any better on a TDA unit now since they no longer have Relentless, but all the special weapons cost more for Terminators.

Between this and other little things like the Assault Cannon being Heavy 6, Psycannon being Heavy 4 and that RAW the Dreadknight weapons are not limited to only the Dreadknight has me a little annoyed by how much effort went into the GK rules!

We'll see what the errata and future books bring I guess.


Where do you see it said that anyone other then the dreadknight can take any of the dreadknight weapons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 21:23:19


Post by: casvalremdeikun


Lanlaorn wrote:
Ah that's it then, the Psycannon is 20 points for Terminators.

I don't know why, the weapon isn't any better on a TDA unit now since they no longer have Relentless, but all the special weapons cost more for Terminators.

Between this and other little things like the Assault Cannon being Heavy 6, Psycannon being Heavy 4 and that RAW the Dreadknight weapons are not limited to only the Dreadknight has me a little annoyed by how much effort went into the GK rules!

We'll see what the errata and future books bring I guess.
Ah poop. You are correct.

I do need to get another box of Terminators now so I can make some Paladins, an Apothecary, and an Ancient.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 21:35:37


Post by: Audustum


Spartacus wrote:
rowan739 wrote:
I don the dex to hand but do we have a way to snipe out characters?


Purge Soul psychic power is pretty handy for exactly that.


We can also freely take Vindicare Assassins in our Elite slots for just 90 points a pop, wargear included. That is if you don't mind bringing in an ally.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 21:44:46


Post by: Elmir


 Quickjager wrote:


At a cursory glance it looks like Grey Knights have improved across the board with the core rule changes, even if our individual units have not become better. Voldus remains disappointing


Disagree, purifiers might as well not exist right now. What on earth justifies their 26 PPM cost? They lost their extra attack, they lost psychic mastery 2, they are in all aspects inferior strike squads except for their 2 special weapon options. No way that you should ever pay a tax for that.

I still don't get why we are STILL paying more for terminator weapons, as their relentless platform advantage is gone.

Only one power per turn makes this army virtually useless in matched play... Sorry if I don't exactly share your enthusiasm, but it looks pretty bad for now for GKs in matched play... And I've been playing AoS for long enough now to know that the "rule of one" is the de-facto rule, regardless of game type you play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/05 23:29:19


Post by: Coyote81


You are paying for smite that causes d6 mortal ones. It's rather strong.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 00:56:18


Post by: Lanlaorn


If you're looking for the most competitive build for GKs it's definitely going to be some kind of MSU Spam Smite option and IMHO Crowe and Purifiers will feature prominently.

The problem, again IMHO, is that nothing really got any tougher for the cost and other army's shooting became much stronger. Plus, against huge infantry spamming armies a few casts of Smite isn't going to do much.

Based on a cursory inspection of the rules I'd say that the future belongs to gunline IG and Tau, horde Tyranids and Orks.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 02:26:18


Post by: Quickjager


Crowe is bad choice of HQ, he doesn't do anything but smite, take a GM so at least you can reroll 1's

My 1000 point list I will be running today against a IG list is as follows.

Spearhead Detachment - CP are hard to come by as GK because we can at most fulfill a Battalion before being forced to take questionable choices, I expect most GK armies to have between 4-6 as a result. We need to tilt the game heavily in our favor early on so CP becomes less important later on.

Draigo - 240

Dreadknight - 165 - Fists only
Dreadknight - 165 - FIsts only
Land Raider Crusader - 287

Purifiers - 140

This is an extremely low model army, at that same time it has very high quality. I fully expect to lose the entire purifier squad in one turn after they disembark upon which Draigo will most likely fall next. The plan is to essentially reduce the amount of units that would benefit from psychic powers by using large point models this way more bang for the buck is achieved which I believe to be important for low point fights. Any vehicles I encounter will likely be able to dealt with easily by any unit, the issue is if the IG player decides to have have conscript blobs in which case I will have to be trying to snipe out the commissar with Purge Soul every turn. Wish me luck.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 07:06:41


Post by: Elmir


 Coyote81 wrote:
You are paying for smite that causes d6 mortal ones. It's rather strong.


Except of course, due to the "rites of banishment" rule, every smite cast by a GK (and even most characters have this rule), causes only 1 mortal wound (regardless of casting roll) or 3 mortal wounds when going up against demons.

The range has also been reduced to 12", rather than the normal 18".

So you end up paying a lot for a gimped version of smite that only 1 unit gets to cast in competitive play... So GKs have been reduced to a "bring as allies" force.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 07:22:12


Post by: Xca|iber


 Elmir wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
You are paying for smite that causes d6 mortal ones. It's rather strong.


Except of course, due to the "rites of banishment" rule, every smite cast by a GK (and even most characters have this rule), causes only 1 mortal wound (regardless of casting roll) or 3 mortal wounds when going up against demons.

The range has also been reduced to 12", rather than the normal 18".

So you end up paying a lot for a gimped version of smite that only 1 unit gets to cast in competitive play... So GKs have been reduced to a "bring as allies" force.


Purifiers don't have the Rites of Banishment rule, so are not affected by it. They use only their unique rule for casting smite. (Captain Stern is similar).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 07:35:06


Post by: Elmir


Yes, but don't they have a ridiculous 3"/6" range respectively?

Not exactly efficient, is it? Especially for troops that can't deepstrike...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 12:34:43


Post by: Youn


So, the reason I use stormravens is they move 20+" on turn one. If they survive the first turn worth of shooting from my opponent. Then I drop the purifiers immediately within 3" of my opponent.

The one game I had a difficulty with this my opponent had fielded 150 conscripts with 3 commissars as a shielding line. They moved forward and surrounded the Stormravens base. Requiring me to move the stormravens on the next turn, as such not being able to disembark the purifiers.

In that case, the stormravens still lasted until turn 4. And my purifiers did manage to get out but 22 models simply cannot whittle down that many models when the commissars have a rule that says conscripts only lose 1 on failed moral checks.

It should be noted at this point. Not a single army at our store has managed to actually defeat that AM army. I came the closest with my eldar army the fields 30 rangers and 9 dark reapers. As I could kill the three commissars on turn one and all visible vehicles also on turn one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 12:55:02


Post by: Lanlaorn


 Elmir wrote:
Yes, but don't they have a ridiculous 3"/6" range respectively?

Not exactly efficient, is it? Especially for troops that can't deepstrike...


As already mentioned, use a transport to move them up the field safely and then just get out right next to the enemy.

The real problem is that even the cheesiest smite spam list is only good against high Toughness and Armor units and I think the future will be all hordes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 15:05:26


Post by: zedsdead


Youn wrote:

It should be noted at this point. Not a single army at our store has managed to actually defeat that AM army. I came the closest with my eldar army the fields 30 rangers and 9 dark reapers. As I could kill the three commissars on turn one and all visible vehicles also on turn one.


who the hell wants to move 200+ models...feth me !


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 16:01:00


Post by: Audustum


 zedsdead wrote:
Youn wrote:

It should be noted at this point. Not a single army at our store has managed to actually defeat that AM army. I came the closest with my eldar army the fields 30 rangers and 9 dark reapers. As I could kill the three commissars on turn one and all visible vehicles also on turn one.


who the hell wants to move 200+ models...feth me !


I think against that kind of army we'd actually want Psilencer spam and to use Command Points to re-roll into 1st turn charges.

In the vein of speaking of other armies, anyone have an idea of what we'd do against 5 Imperial Knights assuming we stay mono? It seems like we'd need a lot of Daemon Hammers or walkers ourselves.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/06 16:17:06


Post by: WrentheFaceless


It seems like Stormravens might be making their way back into our lists.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 02:54:04


Post by: Quickjager


Alright, won against an IG list, he had a scion based list so he had a large amount of low str weapon that were pretty useless against the Land Raider and Dreadknight.

However his plasma was very effective in stripping wounds off whenever they had the chance to.

I ended up purging the Tempestor Prime to death while the Dreadknights and Landraider went hunting the scions. The Purifiers were worth their weight in gold for killing vehicles, but that was about it hammerhead with -2 rend and falchions extra attack ripped apart the vehicles, but man Taurox Prime overwatch is nasty, lost 2 wounds on Draigo.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 04:30:07


Post by: Aetare


Stormravens look like a must the more I look at them. So much dakka and so mobile...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 09:41:49


Post by: Bartali


 Aetare wrote:
Stormravens look like a must the more I look at them. So much dakka and so mobile...


Absolutely. They're so flexible too Twin AC/Hurricanes against infantry; Twin Melta/Stormstrikes against vehicles/mc's/multiwound etc
One of the most improved units in 8th, and I'll be taking 1-2 in my GK and BA lists.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 14:30:43


Post by: Youn


You cannot stop moving them against predators. I made that mistake against our BA player. I took 4 lascannon shots to the nose.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 19:49:42


Post by: Spartacus


Whats peoples consensus on using Stormravens to transport Dreadnoughts? Gimmick or not?

Going to be getting at least one Stormraven soon, I have a dust collector Forgeworld GK dreadnought who wants some love.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/07 21:36:12


Post by: Coyote81


Spartacus wrote:
Whats peoples consensus on using Stormravens to transport Dreadnoughts? Gimmick or not?

Going to be getting at least one Stormraven soon, I have a dust collector Forgeworld GK dreadnought who wants some love.


Imo, it's works great, as long as you get the dreadnought in combat and keep him locked in there, he doesn't have the durability to get shot a lot


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 02:31:15


Post by: PUFNSTUF


If you combat squad any squad, can you now smite two times, one with each squad? Smite does say this squad can, and combat says forms two squads, so I think we would be able too. Combat Squading Purifiers may be decent, one to buffer/charge, other to use special weapons.

Youn wrote:
Ok, quick after action report on the above army list:

Played against 1850 points of Blood Angels.
1 Landraider, 2 Predators, 1 Furiouso dreadnought, 1 squad scout, 3 squads assault marines with jump packs, 2 tactical squads, 2-3 sanguinary priests and a librarian with jump pack.

Mission: Secure and Control.
Turn 1: I go first because my deployment is 2 Stormravens with everyone but 2 NDK inside of them. So, by rules I was done in 2 placements.
Top of Turn: Rocket across board with both Ravens. Unleash all shots into 1 predator leaving it with 2 wounds left.
Bottom of turn: BA player unleashed entire force into shooting 1 Raven. Total damage was 7 wounds. He learned, Flame cannons, assault cannons and heavy bolters aren't enough to take down a raven. Other lesson learned for other player. Though you might have jump troops, DON'T charge a stormraven. 1 Dead sanginary priest plus 1 near dead squad of assault troops to Overwatch.

Turn 2: Deploy all forces from ravens on ground. Move to within 3" of Predator + Land Raider. Psychic phase, Landraider takes smites from 2 squads, crowe, 2 dreadknights and an inquisitor. A total of 14 mortal wounds. Shooting phase dreadknights finish landraider.
Charges put me in combat with Severely wounded predator with 1 purifier squad. Rest of troops tied up with other two purifier squads plus inquisitor. Crowe takes on tactical squad on his own.
Bottom of turn: Other predator puts another 6 wounds on wounded Stormraven bringing it to 13 total wounds. Furiouso fails charge, Librarian and Sanguinary guard charge and assault one of the dreadknights. It goes badly for the guard.

Top of round 3: All firepower into somewhat healthy predator and dreadnought. Dreadnought is killed. Predator left with 1 wound. Psychic phase: 6 total smites pretty much decimate all troops left on the table. The 7th smite is the two purifiers in hand to hand with severely wounded predator. They roll 12 on smite, It does 3 mortal wounds to them, killing them. The predator takes 3 mortal wounds from demons dragging two purifiers into warp and is killed also.
Bottom of turn: Raven 1 is finally shot down. very little else happens.

Turn 4: smites plus shooting result in 2 scouts left alive on Blood angel side. Player concedes.

So, overall. If you can get the purifiers across the table. They are well worth their weight. You are only going to cast smite.

It should be noted that Castellan Crowe never managed to kill a single marine with his sword in combat. But he did manage to kill a land raider, a predator and 5 tactical marines with his smite.




Smite spam seems good, thanks for the write up. Any reason why in your list you use psycannons over psilencers when psilencers are cheaper and stronger? Same thing with not using gatling psilencer on dreads? Would save you some points for something else too.


Has anyone thought of including a dakka crusader in a 2k GK force?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 12:12:45


Post by: Youn


Currently, I have 30 PAGK modeled, of them My original army was:

1 Crowe
1 Brother Champion
2 Techmarines with Conversion beamers
1 PAGK with warding staff
1 Strike squad with falchions with 1 psycannon
4 Purifier squads force swords with 2 psycannons each
Each squad has 1 guy with hammer.


I have 2 more boxes of 10 man PAGK sitting on my workbench with the intent to make interceptors out of them. I just haven't gotten around to putting them together yet. So, as you can see my choice is more of a modeling decision, then anything else.

In 7th, Psycannons were salvo (2/4) vs Psilencers being a heavy weapon. This really meant I never used psilencers at all because I was mostly advancing to be within range or trying to get close enough to charge.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 15:26:51


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Yea I myself have 2 psycannons and 4 incinerators so need to get a box and some bits to assemble psilencers. Almost all of mine are armed with halbers too so I'll need to get falchions.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 16:57:34


Post by: Youn


Honestly, I would put an Psilencer in strike squads, Psycannons in Purgation squads and Incinerators in interceptor squads. Purifier squads in my case could go all plain weapons how I use them.

That based off: Strike squads have teleporting strike. Interceptors I am likely to start on the table and move to the spot I want them. Purifier squads are dropped off via Stormravens. And purgation squads would travel via rhino/razorback in order to insure holding an objective and being fire support.

Note: Purgation squads suffer the problem that 2 NDK will always trump them for FOC spot.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 21:38:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


I like the logic. Fighting for slots isn't too much a problem though so long as you got points to spend on an HQ.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/08 22:27:08


Post by: Spartacus


I've been thinking about psychic defense in the new edition. Grey knights are better off than most in this regard, having a large number of units to potentially make a DtW roll. However aside from that there is very little other than a dice-off to determine wether the enemy power is denied or not.

To try and manipulate those odds even further, I was thinking a Culexus assassin (or Sisters of Silence) might be a valuable edition to allow full domination over both psychic phases (yours and your opponents). Historically, GK and the psychic abomination units have not been a great mix, as you hurt your own capabilities as much as you did those of the enemy. However the rule has been reworded, meaning only enemy units within range are affected.

The actual effect has been significantly reduced, (a -2 modifier to enemy psychic rolls), meaning that a Culexus or Sisters unit on their own is never going to be a truly effective psyker defence like it used to be. That's where the Grey Knights come in. As they are not affected by an allied psychic abomination they are now in a much better position to deny the enemy who is affected by the modifier. A -2 modifier might not sound much, but seeing as most results tend to gravitate towards 6, 7, or 8 on 2D6, I'd wager it will come into play far more often than not. The range has been increased to 18 inches, combined with an improved infiltrate rule making the ability easy to make use of.

Heres the even better part: Enemy Deny the Witch rolls are also affected by this modifier (!). Therefore by taking a Culexus for example you're not only severely hampering enemy psychic attacks, but also ensuring yours will be much more difficult to deny, enhancing the offensive output of your GK squads.

To sweeten the deal the Culexus has been given an almighty points discount (only 30 points more than a base Paladin), and is still as tough as ever with the etherium rule, nasty gun and the ability to use it to pick out enemy psyker characters. Not bad in close combat either, one of the few things I've seen which flat out ignore armour saves. In fact, they are now even tougher if you want, as all Assassins gain the benfits of being a character even though they still can't join squads. Pretty potent even if the enemy doesn't bring along psykers of their own. I'm going to be bringing one along for sure.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/09 04:00:57


Post by: PUFNSTUF


I was of the same opinion as you of taking a Culexus for that reason, and figured most psychers can only deny one power a turn, and if your popping off 5 smites, I'd risk the 50/50 of losing one. I am now considering an eversor or callidus for a turn 1 charge to tie up a scary range unit in melee. Not sure which the better beatstick is, so I posted in the Assassin thread.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/09 04:50:36


Post by: Spartacus


Why not both?

They're so cheap this edition it astounds me.

Even if you blaze in with an Eversor turn one, tear up something in assault and die, he's very likely to have already made his poultry 70 points back.

That's why I'm so sure taking the Culexus is a great idea, even if there are no enemy psykers, he would have to have an exceptionally poor game in order to not be worth his points cost.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/09 04:57:39


Post by: Aetare


I'll be running the eversor as a sort of suicide unit coupled with the vindicare picking off enemy characters from range.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/09 18:23:31


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Spartacus wrote:
Why not both?

They're so cheap this edition it astounds me.

Even if you blaze in with an Eversor turn one, tear up something in assault and die, he's very likely to have already made his poultry 70 points back.

That's why I'm so sure taking the Culexus is a great idea, even if there are no enemy psykers, he would have to have an exceptionally poor game in order to not be worth his points cost.


Wish I could fit both in!

Heres what I am currently thinking of aiming for:

Vanguard Detatchment +1 CP

Eversor Assassin - 70

Stormraven Gunship (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Castellan Crowe [125]
Purifier Squad (5 man, 3 x Falchions, 1 daemonhammer, 2 psilencers) [157]
Purifier Squad (5 man, 3 x Falchions, 2 psilencers) [144}

Stormraven Gunship (AC, MM, 2HurricaneBolters, 2 ML) [309]
Purifier Squad (5 man, 3 x Falchions, 2 psilencers) [144}

Nemesis Dreadknight I (2DF, Gatling Psilencer, H.PsyC, Telep)[225]

Super Heavy Detatchment
Knight Crusader - Stock - 512

Total 1995 4CP

Pretty elite force but I think it would be pretty fun!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/09 23:44:55


Post by: Aetare


I might have missed it but how are people generally feeling about Dreadknights this edition? I miss the shunting ability.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 01:24:34


Post by: Quickjager


Shunting ability is missed, however I think they still have a place on the table escorting transports up the table so that they will not be surrounded and the troops inside killed.

Anyone else annoyed with bikers still be tougher than terminators? T5 and 2 wounds, far more mobile, far cheaper...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 01:28:56


Post by: Martel732


Bikers don't have powerfists. Or base 2 attacks. Or 2+ armor. Or a 5++ invuln.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 01:41:32


Post by: Audustum


Martel732 wrote:
Bikers don't have powerfists. Or base 2 attacks. Or 2+ armor. Or a 5++ invuln.


Also, GK Termies are 2 wounds too now I think.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 01:45:10


Post by: Martel732


The wounds are a wash. T5 is not as valuable as 2+ armor in 8th ed. Not by a long shot.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 02:35:25


Post by: Aetare


Terminators should still be more effective at a greater variety of roles, rather than just fast-moving marauders.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 03:06:57


Post by: Anpu42


I keep looking at Grey Knights and thinking of Oprah during the 30 min Psychic Phase

"And you get a Mortal Wound and You Get a Mortal Wound and You Get a Mortal Wound and you are Special so you Get Three Mortal Wounds!"


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 03:10:02


Post by: Aetare


 Anpu42 wrote:
I keep looking at Grey Knights and thinking of Oprah during the 30 min Psychic Phase

"And you get a Mortal Wound and You Get a Mortal Wound and You Get a Mortal Wound and you are Special so you Get Three Mortal Wounds!"


You say that now, until that 30-boy Ork horde comes to town and proceeds to give exactly zero feths but I suppose that's what hurricane-bolter-stormravens are for


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 03:36:10


Post by: Quickjager


I keep saying assault cannon razorbacks are way of the future, 12 shots is great now how durable they are.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 03:51:50


Post by: Aetare


I've never used razorbacks before, but they could be great for MSU armies like the Grey Knights look to be shaping up to be.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 04:28:57


Post by: Youn


So, generally on Nemesis Dreadknights. You are going to have to give them 1 psychic power. Well, Gate of Infinity seems to be the most useful. And since, most people run 2 NDKs. That means both teleport in on turn one. They will attempt to charge if possible.

Once they kill their current target if they cannot move to the next target they should gate to another location on the board. You will only b e able to gate one per turn. But that seems to be fine, most of the time.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 04:36:48


Post by: Aetare


Youn wrote:
So, generally on Nemesis Dreadknights. You are going to have to give them 1 psychic power. Well, Gate of Infinity seems to be the most useful. And since, most people run 2 NDKs. That means both teleport in on turn one. They will attempt to charge if possible.

Once they kill their current target if they cannot move to the next target they should gate to another location on the board. You will only b e able to gate one per turn. But that seems to be fine, most of the time.


Sounds like a good way to throw off the enemy fast; moving all over the board with a giant engine of destruction. Now I just need a second dreadknight....


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 05:40:04


Post by: Sinji


Regular units can't use Dreadknight weapons.

In the beginning part of the GK rules just near the Psychic powers it has a box which say what melee weapons you can use.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/10 05:41:03


Post by: Aetare


 Sinji wrote:
Regular units can't use Dreadknight weapons.

In the beginning part of the GK rules just near the Psychic powers it has a box which say what melee weapons you can use.


What a glorious oversight this could have been...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/12 03:59:29


Post by: Youn


Well, played a game tonight with the following:

Spoiler:

++ Vanguard Detachment (Grey Knights) [55 PL, 1052pts] ++
+ HQ +
Castellan Crowe [7 PL, 125pts]: Purge Soul

+ Troops +
Strike Squad [7 PL, 159pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Daemon Hammer): 3x Nemesis Daemon Hammer, 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm bolter

+ Elites +
Purifier Squad [9 PL, 149pts]: Hammerhand
. Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 2x Purifier (Psycannon): 2x Psycannon
. 2x Purifier (Sword): 2x Storm Bolter

Purifier Squad [9 PL, 149pts]: Hammerhand
. Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 2x Purifier (Psycannon): 2x Psycannon
. 2x Purifier (Sword): 2x Storm Bolter
Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 159pts]: Dreadnoujght Combat Weapon (storm bolter), Multi-melta, Hammerhand

+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

++ Outrider Detachment (Space Marines) [43 PL, 796pts] ++
+ HQ +
Librarian [7 PL, 135pts]: 3) Null Zone, Force sword, Jump Pack, Plasma pistol

+ Fast Attack +
Assault Squad [6 PL, 109pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine
. Space Marine
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

Land Speeders [6 PL, 111pts]
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
Land Speeders [6 PL, 111pts]
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

+ Flyer +
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 165pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Heavy Bolters
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 165pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Heavy Bolters
++ Total: [98 PL, 1848pts] ++



This against an optimized Guard force. I managed to kill about 100+ guardsman but attrition pretty much eventually managed to win out. It is very hard to kill your way through 150 guardsman with as much plasma or lascannons as they could take.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 19:52:47


Post by: Gibs55


What do you guys think of Paladins in 8th? How would you be looking to use them?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 20:50:13


Post by: Quickjager


I honestly love Paladins, I think it is really odd they aren't 4 wounds OR Fearless though.

For the same amount of points you get more wounds out of Paladins and better leadership. I don't see much reason to take Terminators over Paladins.

They're a solid choice now within the codex now.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 20:59:55


Post by: Gibs55


 Quickjager wrote:
I honestly love Paladins, I think it is really odd they aren't 4 wounds OR Fearless though.

For the same amount of points you get more wounds out of Paladins and better leadership. I don't see much reason to take Terminators over Paladins.

They're a solid choice now within the codex now.


I am having a tough time deciding between Grey Knights and Deathwing (DA) as a new Warhammer army. Terminators are a big factor, good to hear Paladins are looking promising though! What load outs are looking the best?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 21:18:13


Post by: Audustum


Gibs55 wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
I honestly love Paladins, I think it is really odd they aren't 4 wounds OR Fearless though.

For the same amount of points you get more wounds out of Paladins and better leadership. I don't see much reason to take Terminators over Paladins.

They're a solid choice now within the codex now.


I am having a tough time deciding between Grey Knights and Deathwing (DA) as a new Warhammer army. Terminators are a big factor, good to hear Paladins are looking promising though! What load outs are looking the best?


So far mostly Falchions with a hammer or 2 and double Psilencers or Psilencer/Incinerator.

Paladins do look great. I'm hoping to try a list soon where I made a Batallion Detachment using Custodes for the troops and Paladins for the elites.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 22:00:05


Post by: zedsdead


Youn wrote:
Well, played a game tonight with the following:

Spoiler:

++ Vanguard Detachment (Grey Knights) [55 PL, 1052pts] ++
+ HQ +
Castellan Crowe [7 PL, 125pts]: Purge Soul

+ Troops +
Strike Squad [7 PL, 159pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Daemon Hammer): 3x Nemesis Daemon Hammer, 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm bolter

+ Elites +
Purifier Squad [9 PL, 149pts]: Hammerhand
. Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 2x Purifier (Psycannon): 2x Psycannon
. 2x Purifier (Sword): 2x Storm Bolter

Purifier Squad [9 PL, 149pts]: Hammerhand
. Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 2x Purifier (Psycannon): 2x Psycannon
. 2x Purifier (Sword): 2x Storm Bolter
Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 159pts]: Dreadnoujght Combat Weapon (storm bolter), Multi-melta, Hammerhand

+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

++ Outrider Detachment (Space Marines) [43 PL, 796pts] ++
+ HQ +
Librarian [7 PL, 135pts]: 3) Null Zone, Force sword, Jump Pack, Plasma pistol

+ Fast Attack +
Assault Squad [6 PL, 109pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine
. Space Marine
. Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

Land Speeders [6 PL, 111pts]
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
Land Speeders [6 PL, 111pts]
. Land Speeder: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

+ Flyer +
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 165pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Heavy Bolters
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 165pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Heavy Bolters
++ Total: [98 PL, 1848pts] ++



This against an optimized Guard force. I managed to kill about 100+ guardsman but attrition pretty much eventually managed to win out. It is very hard to kill your way through 150 guardsman with as much plasma or lascannons as they could take.


massive amounts of shooting from the IG. Thing is... need to pick on units outside of Orders range if possible and tossing those flyers of yours into the Blobs if he had them. They can pull out of combat if they want...but only use 1 order to shoot again. Conscripts suck at killing things.

Also depending on mission... Its sometimes best to play cagey with them and not engage at all... let them come to you.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 22:02:03


Post by: Youn


So, I think later in the week I am going to try the following:

Spoiler:


++ Supreme Command Detachment (Grey Knights) [47 PL, 842pts] ++
+ HQ +
Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]

+ Elites +
Apothecary [7 PL, 92pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion, Storm bolter

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment (Grey Knights) [15 PL, 326pts] ++
+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Twin multi-melta

++ Supreme Command Detachment (Grey Knights) [44 PL, 797pts] ++

+ HQ +
Brother Captain Stern [8 PL, 157pts]: Nemesis Force Halbred
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter

++ Total: [106 PL, 1965pts] ++




I simply have to know if optimizing smite in a Deathstar is viable.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 22:06:52


Post by: zedsdead


11 Models...heh


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 22:31:41


Post by: Spartacus


Are you factoring in the cost of the missile launchers on the stromraven?

This was something I had been missing for a while, and had noticed on a lot of online lists - extra 42 points per boat.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/13 23:17:17


Post by: Youn


Was using battlescribe they may not have it correct. Let's see...

Stormraven - [172]
2x Hurricane Bolter [4 each = 8]
2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher [21 each = 42]
Twin Lascannon [50]
Twin multi-melta [54]

172+8+42+50+54=326


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 02:56:06


Post by: Aetare


I think I'll just stick to Twin Assault cannons for my Stormraven.... So much dakka.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 04:45:10


Post by: Spartacus


Ah yep you've got it. not sure what I had wrong earlier...

How do you find Stormravens in terms of durability? Would you expect a single one to make it across the table against most armies?

Also, might I recommend 1 or 2 acolytes to absorb the crash n burn results?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 04:56:49


Post by: Audustum


So I've been list building and I've got some points to spare and I need another HQ for my force organization. I'm thinking I want Draigo or Voldus, but I can't decide on which one to run with.

What do you all think? The way I view it, Draigo gives you -1 AP, +1 Wound, a Grey Knight aura, +1 invulnerable and -1 Psychic power compared to Voldus for 50 points more. If I took Voldus I could probably spend those extra 50 points on some bling for the rest of the army, but I'm not sure which one of them is really more worth it.

I know it can depend on army comp to some extent, so I can say almost all my lists are involving TEQ's, Paladins, Brotherhood Champions and then some support drawn from another Imperium faction (Deathwatch, AdMech, Inq. primarily).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 0043/06/14 05:05:58


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Youn wrote:
So, I think later in the week I am going to try the following:

Spoiler:


++ Supreme Command Detachment (Grey Knights) [47 PL, 842pts] ++
+ HQ +
Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]

+ Elites +
Apothecary [7 PL, 92pts]: 2x Nemesis Falchion, Storm bolter

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment (Grey Knights) [15 PL, 326pts] ++
+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Twin multi-melta

++ Supreme Command Detachment (Grey Knights) [44 PL, 797pts] ++

+ HQ +
Brother Captain Stern [8 PL, 157pts]: Nemesis Force Halbred
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
Librairian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 160pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter

++ Total: [106 PL, 1965pts] ++




I simply have to know if optimizing smite in a Deathstar is viable.


Are some models deepstriking? I think with termy armor the limbs take two spots in the raven. If the raven doesn't die first turn you may be able to get smites off but it's basically the only target haha.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 08:35:14


Post by: Sinji


How is everyone running their NDK's?

This is what I have been going with.

Nemesis Dreadknight (130)
-Dreadknight Teleporter (10)
-Dreadfist (25)
-Nemesis Daemon Hammer (15)
-Heavy Psycannon (30)
-Gatling Psilencer (20)
230pts

I like that the hammer gives you D6 damage that can't drop below 3.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 10:36:38


Post by: Quickjager


Barebones with a hammer. Their job is to walk the Land Raider up the table, the biggest issue is if big combat gribbly tries to block me or a bunch of small models try to surround the Land Raider.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 12:08:31


Post by: Youn


PUFNSTUF wrote:

Are some models deepstriking? I think with termy armor the limbs take two spots in the raven. If the raven doesn't die first turn you may be able to get smites off but it's basically the only target haha.


4 would have to deep strike. I also noticed technically. if Stern and librarians set up at the back of the table the librarians get a 36" range smite. You could use the raven to go after whatever lascannons on the other side then fight a war were your opponent has to come after you while you sit in cover.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 14:01:10


Post by: Zimko


I don't know if this has been realized fully but stormbolters having 4 shots each at 12" is awesome!

I have a 2000 list now with 20 purifiers, Crowe, a Paladin ancient inside 2 stormravens. Then Voldus and 4 Paladins (Who I'm treating as Mordrak and his Ghost Knights) deep strike in.

This fits into a spearhead formation (or whatever the elite one is called) and with only 4 units to deploy (2 stormravens and 2 reserves) you're going to get 1st turn to hail bullets at the opponent with stormravens while moving them into position to dump their load next turn. Then continue to hail bullets from stormbolters, smites and psycannons.

I don't know if it's competitive, but it sure would be fun to see it play out against waves of ork boyz as you pump about 60 shots from stormbolters, 32 psycannon shots, 48 hurricane bolter shots, 24 assault cannon shots and 4 multi melts shots all from an alpha strike at close range. And that doesnt even factor in the smites or melee prowess of your infantry.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 16:44:58


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Youn wrote:
PUFNSTUF wrote:

Are some models deepstriking? I think with termy armor the limbs take two spots in the raven. If the raven doesn't die first turn you may be able to get smites off but it's basically the only target haha.


4 would have to deep strike. I also noticed technically. if Stern and librarians set up at the back of the table the librarians get a 36" range smite. You could use the raven to go after whatever lascannons on the other side then fight a war were your opponent has to come after you while you sit in cover.


I didn't even think of Stern's buff working for regular librarians. Does that work? If so that's pretty cool.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 17:25:14


Post by: Audustum


PUFNSTUF wrote:
Youn wrote:
PUFNSTUF wrote:

Are some models deepstriking? I think with termy armor the limbs take two spots in the raven. If the raven doesn't die first turn you may be able to get smites off but it's basically the only target haha.


4 would have to deep strike. I also noticed technically. if Stern and librarians set up at the back of the table the librarians get a 36" range smite. You could use the raven to go after whatever lascannons on the other side then fight a war were your opponent has to come after you while you sit in cover.


I didn't even think of Stern's buff working for regular librarians. Does that work? If so that's pretty cool.


Stern's buff only works for Grey Knight Units. Generic Brother-Captain's give the same buff too. Sadly, even Grey Knight Librarians seem to get the neutered Smite which ruins it for us in my eyes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 17:58:50


Post by: Renesco P. Blue


So I've been reading and listing new armies and I have a couple of thoughts that I wanted to run by you all and get some feedback.

#1 incinerators on interceptors now worthless? interceptors can deepstrike 9" away from enemy units, but incinerators only have a range of 8" which means that they don't get to use them when they deepstrike. I'm thinking that psylincers or maybe psycannons are of more use for our mobile counter charge units

#2 purgation squads with 4 incinerators? If I read the rule correctly it says that assault weapons can be fired even if a unit has advanced that turn. wouldn't that mean that we now have the opportunity to run a fast killy imperial burna boy squad full of incinerators? with good positioning to keep them from getting shot off the table it seems that this squad could do some serious work harassing units much bigger than it and nobody is going to want to eat that much overwatch trying to tie them up in close combat.

#3 halberds or swords? my first inclination is to pick halberds, that extra strength means we're wounding on 3s most of the time as opposed to 4s, but is the extra -1ap a better deal? whats the mathhammer on the breakdown of that?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 18:04:00


Post by: Audustum


 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
So I've been reading and listing new armies and I have a couple of thoughts that I wanted to run by you all and get some feedback.

#1 incinerators on interceptors now worthless? interceptors can deepstrike 9" away from enemy units, but incinerators only have a range of 8" which means that they don't get to use them when they deepstrike. I'm thinking that psylincers or maybe psycannons are of more use for our mobile counter charge units

#2 purgation squads with 4 incinerators? If I read the rule correctly it says that assault weapons can be fired even if a unit has advanced that turn. wouldn't that mean that we now have the opportunity to run a fast killy imperial burna boy squad full of incinerators? with good positioning to keep them from getting shot off the table it seems that this squad could do some serious work harassing units much bigger than it and nobody is going to want to eat that much overwatch trying to tie them up in close combat.

#3 halberds or swords? my first inclination is to pick halberds, that extra strength means we're wounding on 3s most of the time as opposed to 4s, but is the extra -1ap a better deal? whats the mathhammer on the breakdown of that?


For #3: I don't have a link to it, but a poster previously did an excel sheet of melee weapons and the swords were basically always better than the axes/staves/Halberds except in niche circumstances.

For #1: I think I agree. Sadly, Interceptors get -1 to hit if they Shunt and Shoot with Psilencers or Psycannons too. The Dreadknight Incinerator is still good though since it's 12".

For #2: No Opinion because I hate using vehicles, sorry I've got no feedback!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 18:15:19


Post by: Youn


Audustum wrote:

Stern's buff only works for Grey Knight Units. Generic Brother-Captain's give the same buff too. Sadly, even Grey Knight Librarians seem to get the neutered Smite which ruins it for us in my eyes.


Reread the section on Grey Knights.


It says:

Grey Knight Librarian in Terminator Armor 2, 3

1 = Rite of Banishment
2 = Armed with Frag and Krak grenades. Also a Nemesis Force staff but may switch that out.
3 = Armed with Psyk-out grenades.


So, his Chapter is GREY KNIGHT and Sterns buff would work on him. And he lacks note 1 which gives him Rites of Banishment.This means a librarian is a Grey knight and has an 18" range. With Stern he would have a 36" range.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 19:00:00


Post by: Audustum


Youn wrote:
Audustum wrote:

Stern's buff only works for Grey Knight Units. Generic Brother-Captain's give the same buff too. Sadly, even Grey Knight Librarians seem to get the neutered Smite which ruins it for us in my eyes.


Reread the section on Grey Knights.


It says:

Grey Knight Librarian in Terminator Armor 2, 3

1 = Rite of Banishment
2 = Armed with Frag and Krak grenades. Also a Nemesis Force staff but may switch that out.
3 = Armed with Psyk-out grenades.


So, his Chapter is GREY KNIGHT and Sterns buff would work on him. And he lacks note 1 which gives him Rites of Banishment.This means a librarian is a Grey knight and has an 18" range. With Stern he would have a 36" range.


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 19:20:20


Post by: tfdlokyar


 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
So I've been reading and listing new armies and I have a couple of thoughts that I wanted to run by you all and get some feedback.

*snip*

#3 halberds or swords? my first inclination is to pick halberds, that extra strength means we're wounding on 3s most of the time as opposed to 4s, but is the extra -1ap a better deal? whats the mathhammer on the breakdown of that?


The math says falchions are your best melee weapons, some dude did a bunch of the math in this doc for melee over at bolter and chainsword


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 19:29:46


Post by: Spartacus


Audustum wrote:


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.


I think that's what they intended, keeping the style of Librarian psychic might separate from the rank and file Grey Knight abilities. I mean, if there was any unit they would pay particular attention as to who was given rites of banishment or not, surely it would be the Librarian, pretty significant difference for him.

On a related note, unless I was going for a BroCaptain buff I would consider taking a generic SM Librarian instead of a GK one. The Librarius powers affect ADEPTUS ASTARTES models, and I think null zone is too good of a power to pass up for the way Grey Knights play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/14 19:31:53


Post by: Youn


Audustum wrote:

That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.


Yes, that may be true. But for the next year or so, We are probably playing with this Index. So, unless a FAQ comes out that prevents it. Feel free to use Stern with a Librarian for a 36" range.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 08:47:36


Post by: zinch


Hi! I'm a long time player that just joined Dakka. Ihaven't played a lot in 7th edition, but 8th has brought me back to 40k.

Spartacus wrote:
Audustum wrote:


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.


I think that's what they intended, keeping the style of Librarian psychic might separate from the rank and file Grey Knight abilities. I mean, if there was any unit they would pay particular attention as to who was given rites of banishment or not, surely it would be the Librarian, pretty significant difference for him.

On a related note, unless I was going for a BroCaptain buff I would consider taking a generic SM Librarian instead of a GK one. The Librarius powers affect ADEPTUS ASTARTES models, and I think null zone is too good of a power to pass up for the way Grey Knights play.


You are reading the librarian wrong: it is exactly the same as the SM one except it has grenades and a warding stve, so the GK librarian also uses the SM psychic powers


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 09:38:06


Post by: Coyote81


zinch wrote:
Hi! I'm a long time player that just joined Dakka. Ihaven't played a lot in 7th edition, but 8th has brought me back to 40k.

Spartacus wrote:
Audustum wrote:


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.


I think that's what they intended, keeping the style of Librarian psychic might separate from the rank and file Grey Knight abilities. I mean, if there was any unit they would pay particular attention as to who was given rites of banishment or not, surely it would be the Librarian, pretty significant difference for him.

On a related note, unless I was going for a BroCaptain buff I would consider taking a generic SM Librarian instead of a GK one. The Librarius powers affect ADEPTUS ASTARTES models, and I think null zone is too good of a power to pass up for the way Grey Knights play.


You are reading the librarian wrong: it is exactly the same as the SM one except it has grenades and a warding stve, so the GK librarian also uses the SM psychic powers


You sir are the one that is wrong. You might have missed it. Under the Grey Knights Chapter heading is says replace <Chapter> with Grey Knights for the Sm Librarian, then afterward it says Grey Knight Psykers generate their power form the Sanctic Discipline instead of the Librarius discipline. Sm Librarians are psykers and gain the Grey Knight keyword thus the no longer use the other psychic power table.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 10:14:28


Post by: zinch


I guess it's not clear, but as I see it, in the librarian datasheet describes wich psychic powers he has and it says the smite power and another one from the SM list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 10:30:52


Post by: Coyote81


zinch wrote:
I guess it's not clear, but as I see it, in the librarian datasheet describes wich psychic powers he has and it says the smite power and another one from the SM list.


It seems very clear, once you have the Grey Knight key word, it says use this new list instead of the normal one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 11:19:27


Post by: zinch


My bad. I haven't seen the line you were referring to. I was wrong.

I would use a SM librarian also, then...

A little more on topic: I played a 1500 points game the other day and I have to say that Termies are very durable now. I love them!
We have a hard time killing multiwound models from distance, but that is solved with our combat damage of at least 1D3 (hammerhand and force weapons are nasty against vehicles/MC).

I'm liking the gk list. The only issues I see is the short psychic powers list and having to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 12:25:54


Post by: Xenomancers


Have any of you noticed the strike squad yet? I think most people dismiss it but for what you get it's actually an amazing anti infantry unit - probably the best ive seen so far in reviewing the indexes. It didn't stand out initially with me ether until I played a game with the terminators and saw how effective their storm bolters were.

8 storm bolters and 2 psilencers = 44 str 4 shots exactly where you want them turn 1. That's incredibly efficient for a 214 point unit. You could even leave out the silencers and keep more close combat potency without much loss of firepower. (I think I might do this).

Kind of exciting for me because I have 40 Strike squad marines from 5th edition.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 17:12:16


Post by: tekn0v1king


Am thinking of putting together a Grey knights list for 8th.

Am new to Wh40k, but the knights seem awsome.

I like the idea of big meaty dudes charging down the field into melee, and it seems like that is kinda Grey Knights purpose?

I have 4k+ points of Eldar I am still putting together, but it looks like melee will be a lot more viable in 8th than it was in 7th, so i was looking for a more melee-oriented tanky bunch... would Grey Knights fit that description?

Would also like them to be at least somewhat competitive as I am a competitive person, and while I dont need to be OP or win every game, I want to have a chance at beating anything/remaining competitive without people needing to play down.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/15 17:37:09


Post by: Audustum


They're supposed to be meaty folks, yeah and melee is the only spot they really shine.

We used to rely on our Terminators for what you're describing, but what you might want to do now is treat your Grey Knights as a supplement rather than a whole army. Take a Vanguard Detachment with Draigo/Voldus/Brotherhood Champion, 3 barebones Paladin units and add 1-2 Dreadknights if you have the points to spare.

There's your heavy melee meat. Now you can use somebody else to add in ranged firepower to support them.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 06:21:29


Post by: Quickjager


Anyone know why they made Pallies WS 3+? Just so random...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 07:19:47


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


 Quickjager wrote:
Anyone know why they made Pallies WS 3+? Just so random...

Pretty much every non-Character with WS 5 became WS 3+ in 8th, it isn't really that odd.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 10:07:39


Post by: Nairul


Here's some math-hammer on our infantry Psilencers vs. Psycannons in 8th ed:

Let's assume you're shooting a T7 multi-wound unit with 3+ save (pretty standard in 8th ed) and you moved in the preceding movement phase.

Psycannon --> 14 or 20 pts (Terminators) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0367 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.025 damage per point
Psilencer --> 4 or 10 pts (Terminators) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.164 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.066 damage per point WINNER

You'll find similar results at all other toughness and armor save values.

TLDR Psilencer averages more damage output than Psycannon against all multi-wound toughness & armor save values. If they were the same price the Psilencer would STILL be better, but because Psilencer is cheaper it's a no-brainer! The only advantage to the Psycannon is that it outputs more damage against single-wound units... but that's what Storm Bolters are for, right?








8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 11:14:03


Post by: Darksider


Okay, but the Psycannon has -1 Rend and the Psilencer doesn't have it.

So you give some units a better save or a save at all by using the psilencer. I think both weapons have their uses.

Also by your math, if the psilencer has a lower Unsaved Wounds (0,33), how is it possible it makes more dmg?

If your opponent saves better, you could not make more dmg.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 11:31:43


Post by: Coyote81


I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points. I think I may just take nothing but sotrmbolters and use generic units to bring lascannons/autocannons/plasmaguns and metla. Weapons that actually manage to do damage, un-like the the GK unique weapons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 11:45:57


Post by: Darksider


Stormbolters are really good, with their 4 shots at 12".

The other 3 Specialweapons are okay, but nothing special.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 12:18:45


Post by: Nairul


 Darksider wrote:
Okay, but the Psycannon has -1 Rend and the Psilencer doesn't have it.



Thanks for your response!


Psycannon --> 14 or 20 pts (Terminators) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0367 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.025 damage per point
Psilencer --> 4 or 10 pts (Terminators) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.164 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.066 damage per point WINNER


You'll notice my math accounted for the Psycannon's -1 AP. I stated these numbers assumed the target unit has 3+ Save. So 1 wound from the Psycannon, on average, would resolve to 0.5 Unsaved Wounds, as my opponent's save is a 50% probability at 4+. Likewise, 1 Wound from the Psilencer, on average, would resolve to 0.33 Unsaved Wound, as my opponent's save is a 66.7% probability at 3+.

 Darksider wrote:
Also by your math, if the psilencer has a lower Unsaved Wounds (0,33), how is it possible it makes more dmg?

If your opponent saves better, you could not make more dmg.


The Psilencer's damage characteristic is D3, whereas the Psycannon's is 1. D3 averages to a 2, therefore 0.33 Unsaved Wounds from the Psilencer results in 0.66 Damage.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 12:56:21


Post by: Darksider


Okay, missed that the Psilencer is D3 dmg. My bad .

Sorry if i my answers are not always that clear or seem not that polite. English isn't my motherlanguage and sometimes i lack the words to describe something =).

But now it seems more clear and it seems i forgot to read some of the things you wrote above.

Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses. But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons .


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 13:25:37


Post by: Nairul


 Darksider wrote:
Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses.


As I showed, the Psycannon is always less point-efficient than a Psilencer. Furthermore, the Psycannon will only output more damage than the Psilencer when shooting single-wound models. So if you know you're going up against a Horde army then you MIGHT consider taking Psycannons. Otherwise there are literally no other scenarios in which a Psycannon outshines the Psilencer.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points.

 Darksider wrote:
But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons


Let's do the math!

Rapid Firing against a T5 unit comprised of multi-wound models with 3+ armor saves. Let's assume you moved in the preceding movement phase...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.15 Damage Per Point
Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.066 Damage Per Point

NOT Rapid Firing...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 2 Shots --> 1.33 Hits --> 0.44 Wounds --> 0.15 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.15 Damage --> 0.075 Damage Per Point

Single-wound targets...

Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.33 Damage --> 0.0825 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.033 Damage Per Point

Lessons

1) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.
2) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Terminator's Psilencer @ 10 pts less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.

3) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter NOT rapid firing.
4) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4/10 pts is less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter when rapid firing

TLDR the Psilencer, especially the 4 point version, is absolutely worth the upgrade points over the default Storm Bolter. It outclasses the Storm Bolter in most scenarios.

Edited for grammar and clarity.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 13:51:50


Post by: Coyote81


Nairul wrote:
 Darksider wrote:
Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses.


As I showed, the Psycannon is always less point-efficient than a Psilencer. Furthermore, the Psycannon will only output more damage than the Psilencer when shooting single-wound models. So if you know you're going up against a Horde army then you MIGHT consider taking Psycannons. Otherwise there are literally no other scenarios in which a Psycannon outshines the Psilencer.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points.

 Darksider wrote:
But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons


Let's do the math!

Rapid Firing against a T5 unit comprised of multi-wound models with 3+ armor saves. Let's assume you moved in the preceding movement phase...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.15 Damage Per Point
Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.066 Damage Per Point

NOT Rapid Firing...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 2 Shots --> 1.33 Hits --> 0.44 Wounds --> 0.15 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.15 Damage --> 0.075 Damage Per Point

Single-wound targets...

Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.33 Damage --> 0.0825 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.033 Damage Per Point

Lessons

1) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.
2) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Terminator's Psilencer @ 10 pts less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.

3) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter NOT rapid firing.
4) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4/10 pts is less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter when rapid firing

TLDR the Psilencer, especially the 4 point version, is absolutely worth the upgrade points over the default Storm Bolter. It outclasses the Storm Bolter in most scenarios.

Edited for grammar and clarity.


Thanks for mathhammering that. The psilencer was the one heavy I tried so far (Since I have heavy weapons modelled) because it was so cheap, it didn't feel any different the the storm bolter, but I'm glad you could clear it up that it is a little better.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 13:56:00


Post by: Zimko


But then you have to ask whether or not it's worth giving up a melee weapon in order to do slightly more damage at ranged. I think that is the main reason that it's more expensive for terminators since they get to keep their free melee weapon.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 14:19:23


Post by: Nairul


 Zimko wrote:
But then you have to ask whether or not it's worth giving up a melee weapon in order to do slightly more damage at ranged. I think that is the main reason that it's more expensive for terminators since they get to keep their free melee weapon.


Great point!

Playing pure GK in 8th I've made this observation: despite all our units having good melee capabilities, our success depends more so on the Shooting & Psychic phases of our Alpha Strike turn. 9" charges are unreliable -- 27.8%, to be exact. Higher odds if you want to use a CP, but still unreliable. Therefore, we should expect most of our deep striking units NOT to make their Turn 1 charges. So the opponent will often get a chance to shoot/charge the crap out of our deep striking units with the full force of his back line!

Logic would follow our best chance of survival is to cripple the opponent with our Shooting/Psychic on that turn we alpha strike. Kind of like Tempestus in 7th. The more we shoot, smite, and kill in that critical turn, the less they have to punish us. Hence why I always favor Psilencers over 2x Nemesis Falchions!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 14:50:26


Post by: Youn


The only way to reliable put your troops into melee on turn 2 is to deliver them with a Stormraven. Teleport strike is particularly good if you want to teleport the troop into a covered location that is 9-12" away from your opponent. So, that you may set up in rapid fire range with cover.

Terrain Note: If you have a ruin in that range always set up on the second or higher floor. Vehicles cannot charge someone on the second floor of a building. As they cannot even get to the second floor of a building with the Advanced rules.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/16 18:47:49


Post by: Renesco P. Blue


Did anyone notice that Interceptors lost the "jump" rule and designation? At first I thought that it was a direct nerf to the unit as they cannot assault flying units, but due to RAW it means that interceptors now only take up 1 space in transports as opposed to 2. I don't know what sort of advantage I could make from this, but just though I would share it with all of you since nobody has mentioned it yet


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/17 03:17:52


Post by: Youn


So, yeah....

Brother Captain Stern - [Gate of Infinity]
9 Grey Knight Librarians - [Gate of Infinity]
2 Apothecaries - [Gate of Infinity]
1 Rhino
1 Razorback with twin lascannon

Is a perfectly valid force, it worked really well in play. You will completely clear the area for 36" around your characters.

I managed to kill the imperial knight, 1 death company, Sanguinar , Lemartes, 2 priests, 1 death company dreadnought, 2 tactical squads and 2 devastator squads by turn 4.

Had trouble with a laspredator and a librarian dreadnought that spent it's time hiding.

Lost on cards of the Maelstrom mission because he drew his objectives 3 times in a row. Final score was 11 BA to 7 GK at end of turn 7.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/17 10:24:00


Post by: Darksider


Youn wrote:
So, yeah....

Brother Captain Stern - [Gate of Infinity]
9 Grey Knight Librarians - [Gate of Infinity]
2 Apothecaries - [Gate of Infinity]
1 Rhino
1 Razorback with twin lascannon

Is a perfectly valid force, it worked really well in play. You will completely clear the area for 36" around your characters.

I managed to kill the imperial knight, 1 death company, Sanguinar , Lemartes, 2 priests, 1 death company dreadnought, 2 tactical squads and 2 devastator squads by turn 4.

Had trouble with a laspredator and a librarian dreadnought that spent it's time hiding.

Lost on cards of the Maelstrom mission because he drew his objectives 3 times in a row. Final score was 11 BA to 7 GK at end of turn 7.




Only problem in matched play is, that you can use each power only once a turn (besides smite of course). So if your plan was to teleport each of your guys, i am sorry but in matched play it won't work =(.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/17 14:35:07


Post by: Youn


I did play matched play. I only wanted to teleport 1 librarian a turn to take objectives. As I wasn't sure which would be alive and I didn't think Hammerhand or Purge Soul would be used, I simply took Gate of Infinity on every psyker.


In the end, I cast Gate of infinity 5 times in 7 turns. It gave me Line Breaker and wiped out 2 devastator units with teleporting a Librarian to 9" from them and then Blasting them with Smite.

I lost 2 Apothecaries, 1 Rhino, 1 Razorback and 4 Librarians by the end of Turn 7. So, they did kill far more then they were killed.

Like I said, the only reason he won was he drew Don't allow enemy to be within 12" of center of board for 3 VP, and Objective 5 three times. That amounted to 4 of his victory points simply on random pick.

1 Apothicary and 3 of the Librarians died due to an objective near the predator that was worth victory points for me if I owned it at the start of the turn. I kept teleporting 1 individual over to the point, then losing it to that predator. Each time I did teleport, I failed the charge to engage the predator.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/17 18:52:10


Post by: FinkleLord


Something I noticed to when I was list building for my first game was the range of the Incinerator. Which coming from 7th the 8in is no big deal BUT with the changes to "deep strike" and must be 9in away from enemy models is makes the Incinerator less favorable on my Interceptors.

(if this has been discussed already sorry!)

Storm Bolters are the big winners in this edition. I played against mech guard and the amount of shots the bolters put out was amazing. The lack of AP doesn't matter since we are forcing so many saves. I will more than likely will not be running special weapons, but I do need to try out the Psilencers seeing the math now.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 05:01:15


Post by: Nairul


 FinkleLord wrote:
Something I noticed to when I was list building for my first game was the range of the Incinerator. Which coming from 7th the 8in is no big deal BUT with the changes to "deep strike" and must be 9in away from enemy models is makes the Incinerator less favorable on my Interceptors.

(if this has been discussed already sorry!)

Storm Bolters are the big winners in this edition. I played against mech guard and the amount of shots the bolters put out was amazing. The lack of AP doesn't matter since we are forcing so many saves. I will more than likely will not be running special weapons, but I do need to try out the Psilencers seeing the math now.


I encourage you try them out! The math on Psilencer ain't wrong. Just think of it as a 6-shot Storm Bolter that does D3 damage instead of 1, except it's usually hitting on 4's instead of 3's (FYI Gate of Infinity does NOT count as having moved! So if you cast Gate on a unit that didn't move they can shoot at full BS).

Now consider it only costs 2 points more than a Storm Bolter for non-terminator units. So in my judgment that weapon is an auto include in any Strike, Interceptor, Purifier, or Purgation squad.

After that I'd still recommend it for all terminators and paladins (though why would you take Termies over Paladins lol). There are few circumstances where a storm bolter is more points efficient than a 10-point Psilencer (see my post above). The other two special weapons are useless comparatively.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 06:19:09


Post by: Spartacus


Can attest to the value of Psilencers:

Facing 1000 Sons they were in their element as they ignored the save modifier usually granted against 1 Damage weapons. I had 3 Terminator units each with a psilencer and throughout the game they pulled off many important finishing blows including a Lord of change, a defiler, and one-shotting a Scarab Terminator in overwatch. The rerolls from Draigo helped immensely (with everything really).

With the D3 damage and longer effective ranger compared to Storm Bolters I found them to be a great option to split off in order to finish off wounded larger targets, while the storm bolters rapid fire at closer enemies.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 09:37:17


Post by: Kahor


Youn wrote:
and wiped out 2 devastator units with teleporting a Librarian to 9" from them and then Blasting them with Smite.

Apologies if I've missed something here, I'm very curious how this was achieved. Assuming the 2 devastator units were 5 man units then that is 10 models. Smite would kill 1 per turn with a Librarian successfully casting it every turn. How did you wipe out both units?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 09:43:05


Post by: Crazyterran


Im assuming it was over two seperate turns? Isnt a high cast smite D6 wounds?

Sounds like getting lucky


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 09:51:46


Post by: Kahor


Grey Knight smite only does 1 mortal wound though (unless daemons). This is the main reason I am confused as I can't see how the libby puts out that much damage


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 09:52:07


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


Yup, a 10+ on Smite is D6 Mortal Wounds.
Also note that GK Librarians don't have Rites of Banishment (or at least I'm 99% sure that's the case), so they are able to use Smite as normal, not the modified '1 mortal wound only/3 mortal wounds if daemon' version.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 10:01:25


Post by: Kahor


 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yup, a 10+ on Smite is D6 Mortal Wounds.
Also note that GK Librarians don't have Rites of Banishment (or at least I'm 99% sure that's the case), so they are able to use Smite as normal, not the modified '1 mortal wound only/3 mortal wounds if daemon' version.


Just looked in the book and damn that looks to be correct. I can only take a librarian in terminator armour but then its chapter changes to "Grey Knights" and it has to take powers from the GK list rather than the normal list (unfortunately!). But, as you say, it doesn't say anything about getting the Rites of Banishment rule... well this will be fun!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 13:14:46


Post by: Hakumei


You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 13:51:03


Post by: Kahor


 Hakumei wrote:
You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


If I take a normal librarian though it would need to be from a separate detachment? because the factions do not all match.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 14:01:51


Post by: Fueli


Kahor wrote:
 Hakumei wrote:
You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


If I take a normal librarian though it would need to be from a separate detachment? because the factions do not all match.


They both have Imperium -keyword so it matches. The Librarian will not benefit from buffs to GK faction models but otherwise it's perfectly legal.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 14:28:24


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:
 Hakumei wrote:
You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


If I take a normal librarian though it would need to be from a separate detachment? because the factions do not all match.


Detachments only need 1 keyword in common, not all keywords in common.

I imagine our Librarians being exempt will be FAQ'd or removed once we get a Codex. Voldus is a Librarian fluff-wise and his Smite is also weakened. Even Draigo's is.

If you want to use while we've got it though, don't forget to slap a Storm Shield and a Warding Staff on him to for one of the few 2++'s in the game!

Has anyone tried taking Vindicares to snipe Commissars or other leadership buffers against hordes? It seems like the right idea but I'm not getting a good read since in my last 2 games my Assassins only avoided rolling 1's to hit or wound twice.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 15:17:35


Post by: Kahor


Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
 Hakumei wrote:
You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


If I take a normal librarian though it would need to be from a separate detachment? because the factions do not all match.


Detachments only need 1 keyword in common, not all keywords in common.


Where is this written? Just asking so I can reference it as the only thing I've found in the detachments part of the rulebook is that it says "must be from the same faction".

By your logic I could put Dante as a HQ choice from Blood Angels and then have, say, Conscripts for troops, because they're both Imperium? Or Calgar with Wolf Guard in the same detachment because both are Adeptus Astartes. Right?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 16:05:55


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
 Hakumei wrote:
You don't have to take a Grey Knight Librarian and can opt to take a Normal Librarian if you want. The Grey Knights Chapter list that shows you what can be Grey Knights only say that these datasheets can be Grey Knights, not that they have to.


If I take a normal librarian though it would need to be from a separate detachment? because the factions do not all match.


Detachments only need 1 keyword in common, not all keywords in common.


Where is this written? Just asking so I can reference it as the only thing I've found in the detachments part of the rulebook is that it says "must be from the same faction".

By your logic I could put Dante as a HQ choice from Blood Angels and then have, say, Conscripts for troops, because they're both Imperium? Or Calgar with Wolf Guard in the same detachment because both are Adeptus Astartes. Right?


Yep! That's exactly what you can do.

I don't have the rules in front of me, but here's a YMDC thread about it for Chaos. There are others too I think. Dakka admin posts on this one:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728848.page#9436698


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 16:49:13


Post by: Youn


In the case of the killing 2 separate devastator squads. It did occur over the 7 turns. I teleported to the other side to take an objective with 1 of the 9 librarians. Then used his smite. Rolled a 10 and then a 6. Resulting in a complete wipe of the squad.

Then later in the game teleported another of the librarians, rolled a 5 and 1 for his smite. Used a command point to reroll the 1 and got a 6. Followed with a 5 to wipe out the second squad.

In both cases, those those librarians ended up being a sacrifice as they both took 4 lascannon shots from the predator for well over their 4 wounds. With me failing to take objective each time. But heck, I killed two separate 4 man lascannon devastator squads. Well worth the sacrifice.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 17:42:41


Post by: Kahor


Well rolling 6's for damage definitely help!

Hadn't thought about using the command points for rerolling the damage die, good idea.

As I've been reading through the index it looks like deepstriking is a good idea. Paladins with an Apothecary (heal), Brother Captain (double smite range), Brotherhood Ancient (+1LD and +1A) and maybe Draigo (reroll hits) if you have the points seems like a scary unit.

Purifiers seem scary with smite now. They need to get into combat but stormravens are good delivery systems.

What do you guys think? I haven't had a chance to use these combinations yet but they sound good on paper.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 20:40:42


Post by: Audustum


One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 20:55:11


Post by: Kahor


Audustum wrote:
One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


Hadn't thought of that, sounds like a good option. My only reservation with any deep strike / gate / teleport strategy that involves a focus on combat is that you need to succeed a 9" charge. Bit of a long shot even if you do maybe use a CP to reroll.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/18 20:58:42


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


Hadn't thought of that, sounds like a good option. My only reservation with any deep strike / gate / teleport strategy that involves a focus on combat is that you need to succeed a 9" charge. Bit of a long shot even if you do maybe use a CP to reroll.


Yeah, I usually strike a durable unit next to him to soak fire. His wounds are low enough he can't get targeted outright.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 09:36:32


Post by: Kahor


Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


Hadn't thought of that, sounds like a good option. My only reservation with any deep strike / gate / teleport strategy that involves a focus on combat is that you need to succeed a 9" charge. Bit of a long shot even if you do maybe use a CP to reroll.


Yeah, I usually strike a durable unit next to him to soak fire. His wounds are low enough he can't get targeted outright.


Good point! I'm trying to put together a 1500 point list at the moment but I'm finding it difficult to put enough firepower on board. No idea how I'll handle large units of models. (I'm running pure).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 16:35:56


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


Hadn't thought of that, sounds like a good option. My only reservation with any deep strike / gate / teleport strategy that involves a focus on combat is that you need to succeed a 9" charge. Bit of a long shot even if you do maybe use a CP to reroll.


Yeah, I usually strike a durable unit next to him to soak fire. His wounds are low enough he can't get targeted outright.


Good point! I'm trying to put together a 1500 point list at the moment but I'm finding it difficult to put enough firepower on board. No idea how I'll handle large units of models. (I'm running pure).


So if you want pure, effective, high-strength shooting, then the Stormraven looks like our best option so far. Dreadnoughts are decent for anti-tank too. The Dreadknight is still a good shooting platform for anti-infantry (go Psilencer and Incinerator since his is 12" range).

Other than that, GW seems to want us to be a largely melee army. I'm not sure what pure GW can really do against a conscript blob, but for Tyranids you can at least target some of their synapse-characters even if they aren't the closest due to their high wound totals. What do you normally see in your meta?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 18:14:29


Post by: Kahor


Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
Audustum wrote:
One of my favorite combos is a Champion in Blade Stance with Hammerhand. He's wounding even T8 on a 4+ that way. You just have another GK unit Gate him in somewhere.


Hadn't thought of that, sounds like a good option. My only reservation with any deep strike / gate / teleport strategy that involves a focus on combat is that you need to succeed a 9" charge. Bit of a long shot even if you do maybe use a CP to reroll.


Yeah, I usually strike a durable unit next to him to soak fire. His wounds are low enough he can't get targeted outright.


Good point! I'm trying to put together a 1500 point list at the moment but I'm finding it difficult to put enough firepower on board. No idea how I'll handle large units of models. (I'm running pure).


So if you want pure, effective, high-strength shooting, then the Stormraven looks like our best option so far. Dreadnoughts are decent for anti-tank too. The Dreadknight is still a good shooting platform for anti-infantry (go Psilencer and Incinerator since his is 12" range).

Other than that, GW seems to want us to be a largely melee army. I'm not sure what pure GW can really do against a conscript blob, but for Tyranids you can at least target some of their synapse-characters even if they aren't the closest due to their high wound totals. What do you normally see in your meta?


I'm mostly just playing with my mates at a club so I see quite a variety (we all have multiple armies and with 8th everyone is rethinking). I'll be going up against Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Necrons, Nids and Orks.

I think I will "ok" against the marines and necrons. It's the swarm armies I'm most worried about i.e. not enough shots/attacks. The psychic phase helps a lot with adding extra wounds and I think running purifiers wouldn't be a bad idea (D6 mortal wounds which spill over + shooting + assault).

I have a stormraven that I intend to run (maybe with the purifiers?). I also have 2 dreadnoughts, 3 dreadknights and a bunch of normal marines/terminators.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 18:27:12


Post by: Youn


I have yet to play Tyranid in 8th. I have played and lost a few times against our Astral Militarum player. But, he is discovered he can field quite a few plasma with no fear of accidentally killing his guys on supercharge. Because, well... they are AM and you shouldn't worry if you accidentally kill them.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 18:58:43


Post by: Kahor


Any advice on using Grey Knights to kill a *lot* of Orks/AM/Nids? I know morale-shock is a big thing but I've only had 1 game of 8th so far so I'm still getting used to things.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 18:59:27


Post by: Xenomancers


deleted


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kahor wrote:
Any advice on using Grey Knights to kill a *lot* of Orks/AM/Nids? I know morale-shock is a big thing but I've only had 1 game of 8th so far so I'm still getting used to things.

A lot of strike squad marines with alpha strike with draigo.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:00:43


Post by: daedalus


I'm having a hard time picturing anything being more effective than taking a grand master for the reroll 1's, and nothing but squad after squad of 5 man strikes.

That's 10 smites and 148 bolter shots on turn 1 plus whichever special weapons tickle your fancy at 75 power. Points that's probably well under 1500..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:08:01


Post by: heckler


Has anyone else noticed that there is no way to get a pair of falchions on a model? The entries state that you can swap with a selection from the list but it is a singular one and not a pair.

Also, many characters have to swap their storm bolters for a falchion when a lowly strike squad member gets a sword and storm bolter stock.

All the talk about 9" away after teleport attack is a bit wrong, as you have to set up more than 9" away; so effectively 10" away. Charging in on the turn you teleport in will be a rare occurrence.


Quick question: I know terminators suffer the to hit penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move; do dreadknights and other vehicles suffer this penalty as well?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:17:19


Post by: Kahor


heckler wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that there is no way to get a pair of falchions on a model? The entries state that you can swap with a selection from the list but it is a singular one and not a pair.

Also, many characters have to swap their storm bolters for a falchion when a lowly strike squad member gets a sword and storm bolter stock.

All the talk about 9" away after teleport attack is a bit wrong, as you have to set up more than 9" away; so effectively 10" away. Charging in on the turn you teleport in will be a rare occurrence.


Quick question: I know terminators suffer the to hit penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move; do dreadknights and other vehicles suffer this penalty as well?


I noticed the Falchions part also and haven't found it addressed anywhere (thought I was just being silly).

I have assumed so far that I will not first turn charge because 10" is so difficult. I've considered that I would rather deep strike 12" away, rapid fire and then on the next turn hope to kill enough in overwatch to make the charge fail (I know it'll only be a 6" charge but I can't think of something better).

There's nothing on the dreadknight entry that states that it does *not* suffer the penalty, I guess it does. So he hits on 4's without any other modifiers/rerolls.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:18:09


Post by: daedalus


heckler wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that there is no way to get a pair of falchions on a model? The entries state that you can swap with a selection from the list but it is a singular one and not a pair.

Check the Grey Knight Melee Weapons list. A pair of falchions is on there. Of course, I'm bracing myself for the ensuing YMDC argument over what the in-game definition of a 'pair' is, but that's how you do it.


Also, many characters have to swap their storm bolters for a falchion when a lowly strike squad member gets a sword and storm bolter stock.

I feel like I'm missing something here. What characters are you talking about?

Quick question: I know terminators suffer the to hit penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move; do dreadknights and other vehicles suffer this penalty as well?

Unless they have a special rule saying otherwise, like the Leman Russ.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:29:02


Post by: heckler


 daedalus wrote:
heckler wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that there is no way to get a pair of falchions on a model? The entries state that you can swap with a selection from the list but it is a singular one and not a pair.

Check the Grey Knight Melee Weapons list. A pair of falchions is on there. Of course, I'm bracing myself for the ensuing YMDC argument over what the in-game definition of a 'pair' is, but that's how you do it.


Also, many characters have to swap their storm bolters for a falchion when a lowly strike squad member gets a sword and storm bolter stock.

I feel like I'm missing something here. What characters are you talking about?


I am mistaken about the characters; I misread and misinterpreted the entry last night. The paladin ancient can only have a heavy weapon if he doesn't take the melee weapon; The brotherhood ancient can only take a falchion and no other weapon option.

As far as the falchions, there is no way to get more than one in the wargear list on page222. I'm certain this isn't the intent, but as written you can only take one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:35:38


Post by: daedalus


heckler wrote:

As far as the falchions, there is no way to get more than one in the wargear list on page222. I'm certain this isn't the intent, but as written you can only take one.


That's not what says you can get any of them. That just lists the price for one (which is 0)

Go to page 181 and look at the wargear section there. Under melee weapons GK melee weapons is "Two Nemesis falchions".

Now notice that almost all of the profiles say that they can "replace his Nemesis Force Sword with an item from the GK Melee Weapons list.

Well, one of the items is "two falchions".


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:37:21


Post by: Kahor


[edit] I got ninja'd

On page 181 in the GK melee weapons list it states "Two Nemesis falchions" as an option.

On any entry where it says that the unit/model can take an item from the "grey knights melee weapons" list then they can take a pair as 1 item.

The paladin ancient however can specifically take 1 falchion (not a pair) OR change the storm bolter for any item from the melee list (including a pair).

Does that make sense?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:38:40


Post by: Gibs55


What are you guys seeing as the best troops this edition?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 20:40:09


Post by: daedalus


Kahor wrote:

The paladin ancient however can specifically take 1 falchion (not a pair) OR change the storm bolter for any item from the melee list (including a pair).

Does that make sense?


Pity there's no profile for a Nemesis Force Banner.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 22:37:25


Post by: Hakumei


heckler wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that there is no way to get a pair of falchions on a model? The entries state that you can swap with a selection from the list but it is a singular one and not a pair.

Also, many characters have to swap their storm bolters for a falchion when a lowly strike squad member gets a sword and storm bolter stock.

All the talk about 9" away after teleport attack is a bit wrong, as you have to set up more than 9" away; so effectively 10" away. Charging in on the turn you teleport in will be a rare occurrence.


Quick question: I know terminators suffer the to hit penalty for firing heavy weapons on the move; do dreadknights and other vehicles suffer this penalty as well?

All the talk about 9" charges are correct as you only need to end up within 1" of the enemy for a successful charge now. So, if you set up 9.5 inch away from an enemy model, a 9" charge will end with you 0.5" away and therefore is considered a successful charge.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/19 22:50:46


Post by: heckler


Ah, fair enough.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 00:10:27


Post by: Fenris-77


 daedalus wrote:
I'm having a hard time picturing anything being more effective than taking a grand master for the reroll 1's, and nothing but squad after squad of 5 man strikes.

That's 10 smites and 148 bolter shots on turn 1 plus whichever special weapons tickle your fancy at 75 power. Points that's probably well under 1500..

10 5-man Strike Squads (with a Psilencer each) is 1070pts. I think it's worth the 4pts and loss of a pair of falchions to add some d3 wound action. Still enough points for a Librarian and a Hero-type, plus maybe a couple of Razorbacks. % man strike squads are the shizz. It's a shame the Purifiers aren't cheaper, I love that version of Smite, but not a 26pt base cost.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 08:04:51


Post by: Kahor


You think Purifiers are too expensive? :( I thought they looked really good as a turn 2 stormraven drop perhaps?

Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 13:32:00


Post by: daedalus


Kahor wrote:
Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)


Oh, you want matched play? Uh.... okay, add in another 8 points per 5 man and buy yourself an acolyte to hide somewhere backfield holding objectives and whatnot. Just like in 5th edition.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 13:58:23


Post by: Homeskillet


A couple of things I've noticed with just a few games of 8th under my belt, playing only GK so far:

1. Apothecaries are fantastic if you're running multi-wound models. They are resilient, and keep people alive and fighting for only 90 points
2. Castellan Crowe is back. Against infantry, he is a murder machine. No AP, but he can reliably force 8 wounds per combat, as well as smiting for D6 every turn.
3. Draigo is also very points-efficient. He is tough, a killer, and he buffs GK so well (re-roll ALL hits, close combat and shooting). I've stuck him in a brick of Terminators and Characters, and it has paid off big time
4. Brotherhood and Paladin Ancients are also great. Extra attacks for a close-combat oriented army? Yes please.
5. Psycannons are kind of meh. I've tried a few games of Psycannon Purgation squads, and have been kind of underwhelmed.
6. Strike squads are great as well, with all the Nemesis Swords at AP-3 and doing D3 damage. Our basic troops are great at close combat, and with rapid fire 2 Stormbolters, they dish out a ton of firepower.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 15:08:19


Post by: Audustum


Joining in the spirit of that, I want to add some of my observations. I play mixed forces though, generally including Imperial Knights, Assassins, Inquisition and Custodes with my Grey Knights (not all at once, unless it's a huge game) so that may color things a bit.

1. Put a Knight Crusader in your back line. That will solve MOST of your anti-tank shooting issues for 1500-2000 point scale games.

2. Adding a Vindicare or two (at 90 points each) is an easy way to take out Commissars and deal with Guardsmen.

3. Enemy Smites hurt really bad. We get a 50% chance to Deny the Witch, but I had 1 Daemon Prince wipe half a unit of Terminators with a single Smite spell. That's 138 points lost in the blink of an eye.

4. Incinerators on the Dreadknights are great for alpha striking. It's not Torrent, but 12" range means they can Deep Strike in and immediately hit a horde. I paired mine with the Gatlingg Psilencer, which was sadly hitting on 4+ cause he counted as moving but still did all right.

5. The Brotherhood Champion is probably going to die every game, but at just 115 points he'll almost certainly make them back as long as you can get him into a single round of melee combat.

6. Terminators aren't really worth it compared to Paladins unless you really want the extra CP's from a Battalion Detachment over a Vanguard. The 3rd wound helps a lot.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 15:11:12


Post by: Nairul


To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 15:19:55


Post by: Coyote81


Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I completely agree, also if you worried about getting shot, these guys lost their jumppack status despite keeping their 12" move, they can no be hidden away in stormravens/landraiders/rhinos/razobacks, just like strike squads. There really isn't a reason to take strike squads over interceptors.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 15:31:39


Post by: daedalus


Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 15:38:52


Post by: Nairul


 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 16:11:18


Post by: Coyote81


Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 16:11:38


Post by: daedalus


Well, to be fair, I'm presupposing that you're optimizing for a strict all-in alpha strike. For something slower and more well-balanced, some dreadnoughts seem a reasonable addition at a glance.

I've yet to actually play a game with GK. Finally had one with IG over the weekend. Based upon how that game went, I'm guessing that alphastrike is the new competitive.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 16:18:22


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 16:23:05


Post by: Coyote81


Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 16:56:31


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 17:05:57


Post by: Coyote81


Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 17:17:22


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 17:36:05


Post by: Requizen


Is everyone playing Grey Knights standalone or are people "allying in" things? I'm wary of the idea of playing super-elite armies given how many multi-damage weapons and MWs are available to some armies.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 17:39:52


Post by: Coyote81


Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.



Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.


FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 18:24:36


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.



Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.


FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.


You seem rather confused and locked in a 7th edition mindset.

First, Dreadknights actually can deep strike in range with Incinerators. Look at the profile again. Theirs' are 12" range, not 8". That's why you use them.

Second, we're not talking about a set turn for deep striking. You hold the Paladins back until you have a clear shot. You clear the path on T1? Great. You have to wait till T25 or T3 (since most players will move the bubble around too) then O.K., you do what you have to do. One of the reasons a small Paladin squad is better is precisely because you can hold then back in reserves until the right moment without tying up as many of your points in reserves.

Third, you forgot to add in the likely Hammerhand on the Paladin unit. You didn't show a lot of your work but it also looks like you missed that the Paragon hits on 2+ (3+ with a hammer). But yes, you can wound tanks reliably without taking hammers thanks to Hammerhand.

Fourth, your idea of taking Dreadnoughts, Ravens and Razorbacks is way too vulnerable to being alpha struck straight out of the gate. Guard artillery will grind you into paste in a single turn, 2 tops, unless you're hiding out of line of sight. You take Pallies/Dreads and the like and you can deploy cheaper units out of LoS while holding these in reserve.

You're only going to get 1 or 2 turns out of most of your units. They need to be somewhere safe and accessible until you can maximize the impact of that life span.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 18:35:04


Post by: Coyote81


+1S with what weapon will reliably wound tanks? Staves? Sure the math is close to the same. You hit better. Wound wrorse. I did accoutrements for the better WS. Just -1 for hammers.

If you are waiting to the bottom of 3 to engage those AM tanks. The rest of you force is probably dead.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 18:39:06


Post by: Audustum


What? Look at your Datasheet again. Hammerhand isn't +1S. It's a +1 modifier to Wound rolls. That's a massive difference

I never said always wait till T3. I sent part of the benefit is having the flexibility to do so, if necessary, while staying safe. Stop clutching for straw men..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 18:51:02


Post by: Coyote81


It is +1 to wound. Missed that. You still only wound on 4s unless you have 7 str. Can't do better then 6 without a daemon hammer.

I'm no clutching at anything. Your gambit is so very flawed. I'd love to play against someone hold 2 units of 200pt 3 man paladins in reserves thinking they can DD where ever they want. Make a charge and reliable kill a vehicle

Let's keep this discussion civil and intriguing. Unless you've got no more reasons why it might work. Then proceed to name calling if you must.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 18:56:55


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
It is +1 to wound. Missed that. You still only wound on 4s unless you have 7 str. Can't do better then 6 without a daemon hammer.

I'm no clutching at anything. Your gambit is so very flawed. I'd love to play against someone hold 2 units of 200pt 3 man paladins in reserves thinking they can DD where ever they want. Make a charge and reliable kill a vehicle

Let's keep this discussion civil and intriguing. Unless you've got no more reasons why it might work. Then proceed to name calling if you must.


There's literally no name calling anywhere in any of my posts. I'm really not sure what you're on about.

Hammers with Hammerhand wound anything short of an Imperial Knight class toughness on a 2+. Falchions get you to 4+ for the same category.

Your posts continue to be replete with mischaracterizations which is hindering this discussion. Said 2-3 Paladin or Terminator units as an example of what to aim at a vehicle. You interpret this now as 2 Paladin squads in the entire army.

I also said you deep strike them in when the situation is appropriate and safe flexibility is one of the key strengths in their favor. You have twice now mischaracterized that as an iron rule not to deep strike till turn 3.

So yeah, those are strawmen. That's not the strategy I'm advocating.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 19:26:12


Post by: Coyote81


Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.


Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


-I was quoting your from earlier, you said you use 2-3 units of terms/paladins to DS If it was paladins like we were talking about thast 400-600 points in reserve, sitting around being "flexible" as you put t, because you can't reliable DS turn one against a smart player. As for how many paladins you have in your army, it won't really be all that many if you have some ~500pts of paladins in reserve.

-Using Falchions with 4+ to wound seems not as good, but lets do some quick napkin math.

Falchions:
Paladins:8 attacks at 3's to hit, 4's to wound: 8 x (2/3) = 5.33 hits x 1/2. = 2.67 wounds causing D3 wounds, assume average of 2 for ease = 5.33 wounds
plus
Paragon: 4 attacks at 2's to hit and 4's to wound: 4x (5/6) = 3.3333 x (1/2) = 1.673 causing D3 (ie. 2 )= 3.33 wounds

Total of 8.6 wounds, pretty good.

Hammers:
Paladins:6 attacks at 4's to hit 2's to wound: 6 x (1/2) = 3 x (5/6) = 2.5 wounds x 3 damage per wound = 7.5 wounds
plus
Paragon: 3 attack at 3's and 2's: 3x (2/3) = 2 x 5/6= 1.67 wounds doing 3 damage each = 5 wounds.

Total of 12.5 wounds


I really am trying to picture your army in my head, this is what I see.

Draigo
Librarian
Dreadknihgt teleport sword incinerator
Dreadknihgt teleport sword incinerator
3x paladins hammers
3x paladins hammers
3x paladins hammers
Vindicare
10x Terminators




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 19:35:06


Post by: Audustum


Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.

It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.

It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.

T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.

EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:

There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.

I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 20:20:55


Post by: Coyote81


Audustum wrote:
Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.

It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.

It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.

T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.

EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:

There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.

I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.


Ok, If we aren't talking mono-force, then all kinds of things change. I'm trying to refrain from making an Imperial Mash-Army for now, until I learn a little more about each army individually. A Mash is easily going to be the most optimal, but imo also completely unfair to non-imperial armies, except maybe Aeldari factions. How are Tau/Necron/Orks/Nids suppose to compete with an imperial army? I think Tournaments might make you use a mre spcific keyword. Maybe use the current build structure but ban the use of keywords Imperial/Chaos/Aeldari.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 20:47:12


Post by: soots12


Question regarding dreadknight teleporter.

It only allows him to teleport in, doesn't grant him the same rules as our interceptors?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 20:51:38


Post by: Quickjager


I have to say, if we ever need AT in this edition we should just ally in one of the FW SHV. All of them hit way above their weight AND have that baneblade rule that allows them to shoot out of combat.

Hell the Spartan Assault Tank has great potential with 8 lascannon shots and 12 heavy bolter shots (15 if you take the additional one). It can move 25 models and with the new transport rules that means we could literally move an entire army around in it. Not that I would recommend that.

Still, it means we could almost always get first turn if we want because we could plop down one model and be done.

only problem is that it costs almost as much as a fully loaded knight at 514.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
soots12 wrote:
Question regarding dreadknight teleporter.

It only allows him to teleport in, doesn't grant him the same rules as our interceptors?


No, interceptors can deep strike and shunt 30 inches as defined by their rules. Dreadknight has to purchase his teleporter, which states what it does (it only allows deepstrike).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 21:12:39


Post by: Audustum


 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.

It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.

It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.

T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.

EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:

There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.

I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.


Ok, If we aren't talking mono-force, then all kinds of things change. I'm trying to refrain from making an Imperial Mash-Army for now, until I learn a little more about each army individually. A Mash is easily going to be the most optimal, but imo also completely unfair to non-imperial armies, except maybe Aeldari factions. How are Tau/Necron/Orks/Nids suppose to compete with an imperial army? I think Tournaments might make you use a mre spcific keyword. Maybe use the current build structure but ban the use of keywords Imperial/Chaos/Aeldari.


We're in agreement on allies at least! I think these can work well with a mono, but without some changes I don't think mono will be top tier.

I know Nova is letting any keyword Allies fly so far. Nova is the tournament my area follows so I'm not as sure as you. We need some results to see how the others hold.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 21:58:35


Post by: Homeskillet


To circle back to Strike Squads for just a moment, I agree that Interceptors are superior. However, you have to take into account that Strike Squads fill our Troops choice. I think Strike Squads are some very killy Troops, and are just so much improved from 7th edition. Not saying to spam them, just that they don't suck anymore!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 22:04:46


Post by: Requizen


Requizen wrote:
Is everyone playing Grey Knights standalone or are people "allying in" things? I'm wary of the idea of playing super-elite armies given how many multi-damage weapons and MWs are available to some armies.


Still curious. I wouldn't mind making some Guard to go with them (Ordo Malleus Auxilliaries?), but it might be interesting to see a pure GK list if people think it's effective enough.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/20 22:21:48


Post by: Kahor


I'm playing mono-GK and I've just been reading Crowe's rules. He's an absolute beast... 5 attacks reroll hits and wounds. Every successful wound roll (pre-saving throw!) generates another attack (once). So thats a good chance of 10 attacks (additional attacks get rerolls too).

Plus he can cast smite for D6 mortal wounds. The guy can do 16 wounds a turn. The only downside is those first 10 are AP0 but... can't have everything.

The brotherhood champion looks great too. Blade stance + hammerhead is a +2 on wound rolls. With a -3 AP and D3 damage he could really plow through vehicles and multi-wound things.

Just need a decent delivery system for them...

What do you guys think?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 06:34:22


Post by: Quickjager


I just can't get behind Crowe, he offers no force multiplication compared to every other HQ choice. Voldus feels like he would be a more solid pick everytime, except when fighting hordes and you don't kill hordes in melee as GK.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 08:34:12


Post by: Kahor


 Quickjager wrote:
I just can't get behind Crowe, he offers no force multiplication compared to every other HQ choice. Voldus feels like he would be a more solid pick everytime, except when fighting hordes and you don't kill hordes in melee as GK.


Voldus is actually one I'm struggling with. He offers rerolls to 1's but Draigo overs rerolls regardless and is, I think, better. Plus the big draw of Voldus is that he can cast 3 powers a turn (I haven't seen many other characters capable of this. Are there any? Ahriman? Magnus?) but I struggle to see circumstances when you would be able to cast all 3. Maybe smite and purge to do a bunch of damage after gate (though he would be gating himself, on his own which is silly). Not sure if I'm making much sense...

I guess I see Draigo/Brother-Captain/Brotherhood Ancient as the combo-wombo. Rerolls, double smite range, +1 LD and +1 Attack. Add some paladins and that is scary (though expensive).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 09:07:48


Post by: Spartacus


You can always just cast an extra smite if need be.

Voldus is 30 pts more than a std. Grandmaster for a much better hammer and an extra smite. Worth it? Who knows...

But Draigo is a champ that's for sure!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 10:24:24


Post by: Kahor


Spartacus wrote:
You can always just cast an extra smite if need be.

Voldus is 30 pts more than a std. Grandmaster for a much better hammer and an extra smite. Worth it? Who knows...

But Draigo is a champ that's for sure!


Agreed if you can get Voldus into CC then he'll do better but if that's what you're going for then Crowe/Champion would be better no? and for less points.

Where is the extra smite coming from? I thought a standard GM can cast 2 powers? (I don't have the index to hand at work) so a standard GM could cast smite and purge (as can Draigo I think).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:04:21


Post by: Homeskillet


 Quickjager wrote:
I just can't get behind Crowe, he offers no force multiplication compared to every other HQ choice. Voldus feels like he would be a more solid pick everytime, except when fighting hordes and you don't kill hordes in melee as GK.


Agreed that Crowe isn't a force multiplier. He's a killer on his own for sure. Grand Masters and Draigo are your beat sticks that also buff your army, but they all cost a lot more. I think for pure points efficiency, Draigo is kind of the top dog. He allows you to re-roll everything (not just 1's), and he himself is a killer. Voldus I think comes in second place, due to being less survivable and buffing slightly less. Against Demons, his 3 Smites will be brutal. I know I plan on picking up Voldus' model and giving him a try, if nothing else but for fun.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:13:20


Post by: Requizen


So am I right in assuming that all the Special Weapons are a bit rubbish? Can't teleport into Incinerator range, other two are Heavy. Unless you're bringing Draigo for the rerolls, seems a bit meh.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:35:28


Post by: Kahor


Homeskillet wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
I just can't get behind Crowe, he offers no force multiplication compared to every other HQ choice. Voldus feels like he would be a more solid pick everytime, except when fighting hordes and you don't kill hordes in melee as GK.


Agreed that Crowe isn't a force multiplier. He's a killer on his own for sure. Grand Masters and Draigo are your beat sticks that also buff your army, but they all cost a lot more. I think for pure points efficiency, Draigo is kind of the top dog. He allows you to re-roll everything (not just 1's), and he himself is a killer. Voldus I think comes in second place, due to being less survivable and buffing slightly less. Against Demons, his 3 Smites will be brutal. I know I plan on picking up Voldus' model and giving him a try, if nothing else but for fun.


3 smites? I don't have the book to hand at work. He can cast smite and purge soul. The other powers would be gate and hammerhead. What have I missed?

Requizen wrote:So am I right in assuming that all the Special Weapons are a bit rubbish? Can't teleport into Incinerator range, other two are Heavy. Unless you're bringing Draigo for the rerolls, seems a bit meh.


I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:35:32


Post by: Audustum


 Homeskillet wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
I just can't get behind Crowe, he offers no force multiplication compared to every other HQ choice. Voldus feels like he would be a more solid pick everytime, except when fighting hordes and you don't kill hordes in melee as GK.


Agreed that Crowe isn't a force multiplier. He's a killer on his own for sure. Grand Masters and Draigo are your beat sticks that also buff your army, but they all cost a lot more. I think for pure points efficiency, Draigo is kind of the top dog. He allows you to re-roll everything (not just 1's), and he himself is a killer. Voldus I think comes in second place, due to being less survivable and buffing slightly less. Against Demons, his 3 Smites will be brutal. I know I plan on picking up Voldus' model and giving him a try, if nothing else but for fun.


I'M. Pretty sure Smite's rule just let's each Psyker cast Smite not allow each Psyker to cast Smite multiple times.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:38:30


Post by: PUFNSTUF


I know there's love for stormravens as transports for knights but has any used razorbacks (thinking assault cannon) to transport some squads up the board?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:52:01


Post by: Fenris-77


Kahor wrote:
You think Purifiers are too expensive? :( I thought they looked really good as a turn 2 stormraven drop perhaps?

Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)

I can't get past them costing an extra 7 points a piece more just for the psychic business. That's a minimum 35 points per squad for the smite improvement. It's not awful, but that seems like a lot when you still need to roll to get it off. I'm not bullish on the Stormraven. Lots of dakka, sure, but in an elite list that struggles for model count already I'm not sure it has the survivability I want out of a model that expensive. That said, getting a Dreadnought stuck in is always good. IDK, further reducing the Grey Knight model count isn't really my taste in list building I guess.


And yeah, I think we're all talking matched play, hence half units need to start on the board, or rather only half can deploy into reserve. My thought, generally, was to use some mix of Interceptors, Termies and Paladins, with enough transports and Gate of Infinity to shake things up in the movement phase. Even avoiding things like Stormravens I'm still not getting over 50 on the model count mind you, but that's the army in 8th.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 14:56:05


Post by: Requizen


Kahor wrote:

I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


Heavy Incinerator is 12", regular is 8", so you can drop in a Dreadknight with it but not foot dudes.

Yeah and the other two aren't... terrible since they get lots of shots and you can put rerolls with them. The guns aren't too terribly expensive but losing the melee weapon on Strikes or Interceptors feels a bit less worthwhile.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 15:36:07


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:
I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


Fun trick, it doesn't appear that Gate causes the unit to get the -1 to shooting Heavy weapons. If you don't mind it being your 1 Gate, you can Gate a Purgation squad somewhere T1 and pretend they Deep Strike.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 15:44:04


Post by: Requizen


Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


Fun trick, it doesn't appear that Gate causes the unit to get the -1 to shooting Heavy weapons. If you don't mind it being your 1 Gate, you can Gate a Purgation squad somewhere T1 and pretend they Deep Strike.


Hm, interesting. The rules for Reinforcements say that setting up counts as having moved, but is that only in the context of Reinforcements? Since you remove the unit and then set it back up, is it the same or different?

I wouldn't count on it sticking around but it's a neat trick until an FAQ comes out.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 16:04:27


Post by: Kahor


Requizen wrote:
Kahor wrote:

I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


Heavy Incinerator is 12", regular is 8", so you can drop in a Dreadknight with it but not foot dudes.

Yeah and the other two aren't... terrible since they get lots of shots and you can put rerolls with them. The guns aren't too terribly expensive but losing the melee weapon on Strikes or Interceptors feels a bit less worthwhile.


Ah my mistake I was running from memory. Suppose you could always drop a couple of Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators and Psilencers turn 1 and see what you can do. They'll take a lot of fire for the rest of your army.


Audustum wrote:
Kahor wrote:
I believe incinerator has a 12" range so you can deep strike into range (9" away). I've seen some math elsewhere that basically says the psilencer is a bit better in most/all scenarios. Personally I don't think I'll be running them in any squads. Dreadknights will have them (-1 penalty ) and *if* I field a purge squad then they'll have them too.


Fun trick, it doesn't appear that Gate causes the unit to get the -1 to shooting Heavy weapons. If you don't mind it being your 1 Gate, you can Gate a Purgation squad somewhere T1 and pretend they Deep Strike.



nice! I imagine that'll get changed or FAQ'd but that's pretty good. That'll work on a Dreadknight as well I guess? (because for some reason they get that -1 penalty?!)


Fenris-77 wrote:
Kahor wrote:
You think Purifiers are too expensive? :( I thought they looked really good as a turn 2 stormraven drop perhaps?

Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)

I can't get past them costing an extra 7 points a piece more just for the psychic business. That's a minimum 35 points per squad for the smite improvement. It's not awful, but that seems like a lot when you still need to roll to get it off. I'm not bullish on the Stormraven. Lots of dakka, sure, but in an elite list that struggles for model count already I'm not sure it has the survivability I want out of a model that expensive. That said, getting a Dreadnought stuck in is always good. IDK, further reducing the Grey Knight model count isn't really my taste in list building I guess.


And yeah, I think we're all talking matched play, hence half units need to start on the board, or rather only half can deploy into reserve. My thought, generally, was to use some mix of Interceptors, Termies and Paladins, with enough transports and Gate of Infinity to shake things up in the movement phase. Even avoiding things like Stormravens I'm still not getting over 50 on the model count mind you, but that's the army in 8th.


I can understand the hesitation of the costs, espechially given that they lost the extra attack as well. I suppose I figure if I'm going to be playing an elite army why would I spam "normal" dudes? I'm not talking massively competitive here because I don't go to tournaments (would like to win of course!). Like if I can get a squad of purifiers with Crowe into combat... I see just everything dying horribly.

I suppose if I wanted to take >50 models I would be playing Guard/Ork/Nids rather than GK. I like the lower models counts personally and just looking for ways to make them work better in 8th where it seems more dice = better, and more dice usually comes from more models rather than more dice per model.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 16:44:11


Post by: Fenris-77


Oh I agree, you don't choose an elite army like GK because you want to flood the board with dudes. That said, the really elite builds can be more like 20-odd models for GK and it's in lists like that where I think the Storm Raven will get pasted a lot - there's just not enough other distractions on the board.

As for the "normal troops" thing, I think that GK "normal troops" are pretty darn elite by the standards of most other armies. If I want to pay more per guy I'll be starting with Interceptors and/or Paldins who have help buff the lists mobility issues.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 17:21:57


Post by: Quickjager


I think overall we can all agree that Incinerators are just overall trash now, whereas they used to great last edition they just don't do it here.

Pros
Auto D6 Str 6 Assault hits for shooting and overwatch.

Cons
8 inch range so no flame deepstrikes
D6 so you can't expect anything wild
The new AP system shafted flamers in that they don't ignore cover anymore and our flamer which used to have an amazingly superior AP4 is now only -1. Expect to have flamers hits ignored very often by a little guardsmen in cover.
Also they cost a fuckton compared to a psilencer.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 17:25:30


Post by: Audustum


And if you're charged from beyond 8" or out of LoS the Incinerators don't get to Overwatch anymore :(


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 18:09:48


Post by: Kahor


Sounds like incinerators aren't the way to go in general and psilencers are much better.

For clarity I think heavy incinerators are still fine as a Dreadknight can get the hits in on a deepstrike, and can also fire a psilencer. I haven't done the maths but that sounds better to me than a psilencer/psycannon combo.

It also feels like using MSU of inteceptors and strike squads is the way to go. Interesting question that just came to mind. Given the combat squads rule, if you split a 10 man strike squad into two 5 man "units", would you get 2 smites out of that? (I'm assuming to, just thought it was a good way to get an extra smite and deny)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 18:33:28


Post by: Audustum


My initial impression is you'd get another Smite and Deny, absolutely.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:08:52


Post by: Spartacus


The limitation of a psychic power once per turn only applies to powers other than smite (from matched play rules).

Pro tip: Crowe can cast 2 powers per turn, so his much vaunted D6 mortal wound smite is actually 2D6 if you want to


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:19:28


Post by: Audustum


Spartacus wrote:
The limitation of a psychic power once per turn only applies to powers other than smite (from matched play rules).

Pro tip: Crowe can cast 2 powers per turn, so his much vaunted D6 mortal wound smite is actually 2D6 if you want to


The Matched Play Limitation is talking about different psykers casting the same spell, not the same psykers casting the same spell. It's saying out of your whole Grey Knight army, only one gets to cast Hammerhand, one gets to cast Gate and one gets to cast Purge per turn. The Smite exception is just saying every unit can cast Smite.

Nothing in the Matched Play section overrides the general rule from the beginning of the book:


A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn


Under "2. Make a Psychic Test".

So, unfortunately, Crowe and all the rest can each only cast Smite once.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:23:03


Post by: Spartacus


Naww...

I'm starting to like these jumbled up rules less and less.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:27:03


Post by: Fenris-77


Yeah, it's a lot of Smite and one each of the others. IF you want to boost the psychic phase you need to add different psykers. Normal SM Librarians are probably the best choice because their powers affect friendly Astartes and aren't linked to a more narrow keyword. Veil and Might are nice potential buffs to a GK list.

GK smite spam is limited compared to other versions of the same thing sadly. Not useless mind you, but it's not the same as what the Tzeentch list tosses around. Still, it very possible to get 12-15 Smites happeneing, which isn't awful. If that's the goal I start to come around on paying the Purifier tax for their upmarket D6 version.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:39:19


Post by: Audustum


Spartacus wrote:
Naww...

I'm starting to like these jumbled up rules less and less.


Yeah, it made me sad too. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, it's a lot of Smite and one each of the others. IF you want to boost the psychic phase you need to add different psykers. Normal SM Librarians are probably the best choice because their powers affect friendly Astartes and aren't linked to a more narrow keyword. Veil and Might are nice potential buffs to a GK list.

GK smite spam is limited compared to other versions of the same thing sadly. Not useless mind you, but it's not the same as what the Tzeentch list tosses around. Still, it very possible to get 12-15 Smites happeneing, which isn't awful. If that's the goal I start to come around on paying the Purifier tax for their upmarket D6 version.


I was looking at Mephiston from the Blood Angels with this kind of idea in mind. Offensive psychic powers care less about keyword cohesion than defensive ones. He can cast Shield of Sanguinus on himself and then Blood Boil/Smite enemies. Only 145 points for a great statline too.

Primaris Psykers also seem like good ideas (from Astra Telepathica) since they have the only Beam spell left in the game it seems.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 19:43:21


Post by: raoiley


I'm running this

two storm ravens with assault cannons, melta, missiles and hurricane bolters each carrying a doomglaive dread with an incinerator and heavy psycannon and a purgation squad with 4 incinerators.

then two dreadknights with sword, heavy incin and heavy psilencer

draigo

17 models but considering the ravens can fly where they want, puke out a flame squad plus the dread for the charge and then shoot the flyer itself I feel pretty confident in going first and doing insane damage.

i think if you're looking at having survivable GK you're doing it wrong. find ways to maximize the first punch and make sure you find ways to throw it. prioritize the targets that are going to give you troubles and take them out before they get a chance to.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 0020/02/19 20:10:57


Post by: Quickjager


...why incinerators, we just had this talk how bad they are. They are an objectively worse Assault Cannon, take the psilencer. Or if you are going to charge with them take Purifiers instead. This way you can have falchions in melee while still spitting out mortal wounds.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 20:33:54


Post by: Kahor


I would agree with Quickjager. Replace all the incinerators with psilencers (if you want to go the heavy weapon route). On the Dreadknights I'd replace the psycannon with psilencer as well (I'd keep the heavy incinerator purely because its 12").


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 20:48:08


Post by: raoiley


you guys are nuts. incinerators are not bad. no penalty to hit, no roll to hit, higher strength and an so value.

not to mention a ruthless overwatch.

they're not great from deepstrike because of the range deficit but getting out of a transport and flaming the he'll out of a squad is nasty.

especially if you pick an assault target that has to charge you to hurt and it gets overwatched again.

psilencers don't pack a punch. only reason I took them on the dreadknights is because I didn't have points for psycannons


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 20:49:06


Post by: Audustum


Kahor wrote:

nice! I imagine that'll get changed or FAQ'd but that's pretty good. That'll work on a Dreadknight as well I guess? (because for some reason they get that -1 penalty?!)


I forgot to address this.

So under Reinforcements, the -1 only applies when units "arrive from reinforcements". Simply being "set up" on prohibits you from Moving and Advancing.

Gate, by contrast, just says to "immediately set [the unit] up anywhere". It's not arriving from Reinforcements because it already arrived.

Might get FAQ'd. I can honestly see it going either way in the future, but right now there's a good case to be made for Purgation squads being able to shoot at full BS after Gating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
raoiley wrote:
you guys are nuts. incinerators are not bad. no penalty to hit, no roll to hit, higher strength and an so value.

not to mention a ruthless overwatch.

they're not great from deepstrike because of the range deficit but getting out of a transport and flaming the he'll out of a squad is nasty.

especially if you pick an assault target that has to charge you to hurt and it gets overwatched again.

psilencers don't pack a punch. only reason I took them on the dreadknights is because I didn't have points for psycannons


If you look earlier in this thread I believe someone linked to the math. At least vis-a-vis Psilencers and Psycannons, the Psilencer should always outperform the Psycannon even against big targets like Dreadnoughts.

The Dev FAQ also says you can charge from out of Line of Sight, which would negate part of the benefit of the Incinerator. It also cannot fire Overwatch if they charge from more than 8" away.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 20:54:49


Post by: Homeskillet


Audustum wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
The limitation of a psychic power once per turn only applies to powers other than smite (from matched play rules).

Pro tip: Crowe can cast 2 powers per turn, so his much vaunted D6 mortal wound smite is actually 2D6 if you want to


The Matched Play Limitation is talking about different psykers casting the same spell, not the same psykers casting the same spell. It's saying out of your whole Grey Knight army, only one gets to cast Hammerhand, one gets to cast Gate and one gets to cast Purge per turn. The Smite exception is just saying every unit can cast Smite.

Nothing in the Matched Play section overrides the general rule from the beginning of the book:


A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn


Under "2. Make a Psychic Test".

So, unfortunately, Crowe and all the rest can each only cast Smite once.


I had missed the part about a psyker not being able to cast the same one twice, only saw that Smite wasn't limited. Bummer. Growing pains with new rules!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/21 21:11:16


Post by: Gibs55


Now that that the Forge World 8th books are coming out, what are you guys seeing as being complementary to the Grey Knights?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 08:43:46


Post by: Kahor


Gibs55 wrote:
Now that that the Forge World 8th books are coming out, what are you guys seeing as being complementary to the Grey Knights?


I haven't seen the Forge World stuff but in terms of other forces to join with GK, I think you can't go wrong with Guard. It'll allow you to add a bunch of bodies to your small elite army in order to try and protect the GK elements of your army and move them into the position you want them.

Personally I prefer pure for all my armies but the above is how I would go for a mixture.

Or just take all the best characters from all the marine armies and stick them together for fun!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 11:59:55


Post by: Bartali


 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.



Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.


FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.


Late to this, but isn't it obvious ? Twin Las Razors fill a number of holes in a pure GK list. They give anti-tank. They start on the table allowing you to put your other stuff in reserve. They're fast in a mostly slow moving army. They're durable and need multi-damage shots to put down - the same stuff you don't want shot at your Paladins.

Talking of Paladins - they're a terrible idea for anti-tank. Assault from deep strike isn't reliable, even with a re-roll (on one squad only)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 13:18:57


Post by: TheMostWize


Bartali wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Coyote81 wrote:
Nairul wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
Nairul wrote:
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.


I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.


Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.


Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.



Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.

Against Orks your idea has merit though.


I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.


You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.


How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.


You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.

It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.

*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.


So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.


FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.


Late to this, but isn't it obvious ? Twin Las Razors fill a number of holes in a pure GK list. They give anti-tank. They start on the table allowing you to put your other stuff in reserve. They're fast in a mostly slow moving army. They're durable and need multi-damage shots to put down - the same stuff you don't want shot at your Paladins.

Talking of Paladins - they're a terrible idea for anti-tank. Assault from deep strike isn't reliable, even with a re-roll (on one squad only)


I had been contemplating this as well. Psilencer equipped purgation squads in razorbacks seem like a decent option for table deployed units. Also lets not forget how strong dual autocannon dreads look.

This provides another solid fire base. Might be an even better option. For 136 points your getting 8 str 7 ap -1 2 damage shots.

Razorback provides transport but with a lascannon your looking at 2 str 9 ap -3 d6 damage shots.

Thinking the volume from a dread might outweigh the transport capanilites and lascannon damage.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 14:37:46


Post by: Bartali


A few problems with Dreads

1. They're another slow unit
2. They take up an Elites slot which you want for your Paladins - this may or may not be a problem depending on how many detachments you're running and how many HQs you're fielding. Razorbacks are slotless. Remember you don't have to buy a squad that can actually ride in the Razorback

Damage output between the Auto Dread and Las Razorback is pretty similar - whilst the Dread puts out more shots, the AP-1 lets it down.
The Dread is better against a wider range of targets though, whilst the Razorback is more flexible in use (using it's speed for objectives or assaulting to eat overwatch for your infantry/ locking down other shooting units.)



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 15:43:47


Post by: Coyote81


Bartali wrote:
A few problems with Dreads

1. They're another slow unit
2. They take up an Elites slot which you want for your Paladins - this may or may not be a problem depending on how many detachments you're running and how many HQs you're fielding. Razorbacks are slotless. Remember you don't have to buy a squad that can actually ride in the Razorback

Damage output between the Auto Dread and Las Razorback is pretty similar - whilst the Dread puts out more shots, the AP-1 lets it down.
The Dread is better against a wider range of targets though, whilst the Razorback is more flexible in use (using it's speed for objectives or assaulting to eat overwatch for your infantry/ locking down other shooting units.)



-Slow: Not quite as big of a deal with their great range and lacking of CC weapons, they also can take objectives in your backfield.
-Slots are limitless, you just need to form your detachments around what you need. Honestly, buying units that have slots instead of dedicated transports is an advantage by itself since it allows you to get more command points. Razorbacks don't get you command points.

If you need the transports (Which I don't think we do since we should be bringing Interceptors instead of strike squads) Dreads are a good bargin.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 17:17:47


Post by: Nairul


Still noticing a lot of debate on GK special weapons, so I'm going to resurrect my mathhammer from Page 5 with added conclusions for Dreadknight weapons. The math doesn't lie people!

Methods
Spoiler:
The following averages assume:
  • your unit has moved in the preceding movement phase

  • each weapon is in range & LOS of its target

  • each weapon is attacking a unit containing multi-wound model(s)

  • each weapon is attacking a unit containing 3+ armor save(s)

  • Average Dmg and Dmg-per-Point values are calculated against Toughness 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 units

  • Infantry Melee
    Hammer (13 pts) vs. 2x Falchions (0 pts) vs. Halberd (0 pts) vs. Sword (0 pts) vs. Warding Stave (0 pts) vs. 1x Falchion (0 pts)
    Conclusion: Hammer outputs the highest Dmg. 2x Falchions output the highest Dmg-per-Point.
    Spoiler:

    Hammer ~ 0.8681 Dmg @ 0.0668 Dmg-per-Point
    2x Falchions ~ 0.6914 Dmg @ 0.6914 Dmg-per-Point
    Halberd ~ 0.4691 Dmg @ 0.4691 Dmg-per-Point
    Sword ~ 0.4321 Dmg @ 0.4321 Dmg-per-Point
    Stave ~ 0.4074 Dmg @ 0.4074 Dmg-per-Point
    1x Falchion ~ 0.3457 Dmg @ 0.3457 Dmg-per-Point

    Infantry Shooting (Marines)
    Storm Bolter (2 pts) vs. Psilencer (4 pts) vs. Psycannon (14 pts) vs. Incinerator (14 pts)
    Conclusion: Incinerator outputs the highest Dmg. Psilencer outputs the highest Dmg-per-Point. Unless you're able to get within Incinerator range (8") via movement or transport, I recommend Psilencer.
    Spoiler:

    Storm Bolter ~ 0.1728 Dmg @ 0.0864 Dmg-per-Point
    Storm Bolter (Rapid Firing) ~ 0.3457 @ 0.1728 Dmg-per-Point
    Psilencer ~ 0.7778 Dmg @ 0.1944 Dmg-per-Point
    Psycannon ~ 0.6667 Dmg @ 0.0476 Dmg-per-Point
    Incinerator ~ 1.0694 Dmg @ 0.0764 Dmg-per-Point

    Infantry Shooting (Terminators)
    Storm Bolter (2 pts) vs. Psilencer (10 pts) vs. Psycannon (20 pts) vs. Incinerator (20 pts)
    Conclusion: Incinerator outputs the highest Dmg, but because it's not in range during the turn you deep strike you're better off taking the Psilencer. Storm Bolter outputs the highest Dmg-per-Point.
    Spoiler:

    Storm Bolter ~ 0.1728 Dmg @ 0.0864 Dmg-per-Point
    Storm Bolter (Rapid Firing) ~ 0.3457 @ 0.1728 Dmg-per-Point
    Psilencer ~ 0.7778 Dmg @ 0.0778 Dmg-per-Point
    Psycannon ~ 0.6667 Dmg @ 0.0333 Dmg-per-Point
    Incinerator ~ 1.0694 Dmg @ 0.0535 Dmg-per-Point

    Dreadknight Melee
    2x Dreadfist (35 pts) vs. Dreadfist/Greatsword (35 pts) vs. Dreadfist/Greathammer (40 pts)
    Conclusion: Greathammer outputs the highest Dmg. Greatsword outputs the highest Dmg-per-Point.
    Spoiler:

    2x Dreadfist ~ 4.3210 Dmg @ 0.1235 Dmg-per-Point
    Greatsword ~ 5.8333 Dmg @ 0.1667 Dmg-per-Point
    Greathammer ~ 6.2222 Dmg @ 0.1556 Dmg-per-Point

    Dreadknight Shooting
    Gatling Psilencer (20 pts) vs. Heavy Psycannon (30 pts) vs. Heavy Incinerator (40 pts)
    Conclusion: Heavy Incinerator ouputs the highest Dmg. Gatling Psilencer outputs the highest Dmg-per-Point. Heavy Psycannon is in the middle. My recommended loadout is Heavy Psycannon + Gatling Psilencer if Draigo, Voldus, or a Grand Master are within 6".
    Spoiler:

    Gatling Psilencer ~ 1.5556 Dmg @ 0.0778 Dmg-per-Point
    Heavy Psycannon ~ 2.0000 Dmg @ 0.0667 Dmg-per-Point
    Heavy Incinerator ~ 2.1389 Dmg @ 0.0535 Dmg-per-Point


    Feel free to PM me for inquiries into specific calculations.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 17:35:08


    Post by: Kahor


    Thanks Nairul for the maths! Awesome to see the raw stats on hand.

    I would add one thing. For normal squads (strike/inteceptor/purifier/etc), in order to take the heavy weapon you're also sacrificing your melee weapon on top of the storm bolter.

    So the calculations above are great in a vacuum, and I appreciate Nairul has specifically pointed out instances where the incinerator/h.incinerator outperforms the alternatives in raw numbers but that this doesn't account for the situation of range, but don't forget that in normal squads taking a heavy weapon has, I suppose, another cost. This assumes you would plan to get the squad into CC at some point (I assume this to be the case or you'd just be running psilencer purge squads...).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 17:40:22


    Post by: Quickjager


    Generally if you have access to rerolls to HIT, everything is better than the Incinerator yes? Because the bottleneck for the non-flamers is the BS whereas the Incinerator will generally auto-hit on average for how many shots the other weapons get.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 18:24:36


    Post by: Nairul


    Kahor wrote:
    Thanks Nairul for the maths! Awesome to see the raw stats on hand.

    I would add one thing. For normal squads (strike/inteceptor/purifier/etc), in order to take the heavy weapon you're also sacrificing your melee weapon on top of the storm bolter.

    So the calculations above are great in a vacuum, and I appreciate Nairul has specifically pointed out instances where the incinerator/h.incinerator outperforms the alternatives in raw numbers but that this doesn't account for the situation of range, but don't forget that in normal squads taking a heavy weapon has, I suppose, another cost. This assumes you would plan to get the squad into CC at some point (I assume this to be the case or you'd just be running psilencer purge squads...).


    The only instance in which it might be wise to neglect paying for a special weapon on marine squads is if you're riding them up the field in a transport (e.g. Purifiers), such that their charge is highly probable and thus will only get one phase of shooting off.

    For Strike Squads (deep strike) or Interceptors (teleport shunt), a 9" charge is unlikely... it's a 27.8% chance to be exact. These are marines we're talking about. They die easily. Because they're probably not going to make that charge, their best chance of survival is a strong psychic/shooting offense on the turn they arrive. Thus I heavily favor the 4pt Psilencer over a 2pt Storm Bolter/Melee weapon.




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 18:31:44


    Post by: TheMostWize


    I've been high on Psilencer since I first read the update.

    That being said. I want to bring up HQs again.

    Librarian w/ Storm Shield? Voldus? Neither and taking a Brotherhood Champion?

    Librarians for the points seem like an excellent choice. The rerolls from Draigo and Voldus seem great as well just not sure how they stack up point for point.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 18:47:34


    Post by: Nairul


     TheMostWize wrote:
    I've been high on Psilencer since I first read the update.

    That being said. I want to bring up HQs again.

    Librarian w/ Storm Shield? Voldus? Neither and taking a Brotherhood Champion?

    Librarians for the points seem like an excellent choice. The rerolls from Draigo and Voldus seem great as well just not sure how they stack up point for point.




  • Librarian w/ Storm Shield is okay for competitive low-point lists. Give him a Stave for that 2++ invul in combat!

  • Draigo might be too expensive for a competitive 1000 pt list, best off using a Grand Master w/ Psilencer. I believe the Grand Master w/ Psilencer outshines Voldus @ 20 pts more. Voldus is not going to be making use of all those 3 different powers in a Matched Play game (due to Psychic Focus), and RAW he can't cast Smite more than once per turn.

  • For lists over 1000 points, Draigo is a no-brainer.





  • 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 19:14:04


    Post by: Audustum


    For a low point list, the Brotherhood Champion is a clear standout to me. Thanks to the character rule he's safer than he looks with a glance.

    A large, mono force, Draigo and GM seem great. If you're mixing in a lot of allies though you might want to look towards a Librarian so you're not 'wasting' points on buffs you're not always using.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/22 19:18:14


    Post by: Kahor


     TheMostWize wrote:
    I've been high on Psilencer since I first read the update.

    That being said. I want to bring up HQs again.

    Librarian w/ Storm Shield? Voldus? Neither and taking a Brotherhood Champion?

    Librarians for the points seem like an excellent choice. The rerolls from Draigo and Voldus seem great as well just not sure how they stack up point for point.


    Regarding the Brotherhood Champion, I would spend the extra 12 points and get a D6 mortal wound smite. As long as you can get him into combat (run lots of units, too many targets for your opponent to focus down) then he should do some insane damage.

    I haven't tried a Librarian with Storm Shield but on paper its a great choice (and great smite).

    Draigo's rerolls are so good if you're playing enough points. He isn't for small games unless you want to just run a funny draigo-star unit (draigo/paladin ancient/brother captain/crowe/paladins)


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 04:09:17


    Post by: PUFNSTUF



    ++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [28 PL, 532pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 40pts]: Chainsword, Tempestus Command Rod

    Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 40pts]: Chainsword, Tempestus Command Rod

    + Elites +

    Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 64pts]
    . 4x Tempestus Scion w/ Plasma Gun: 4x Plasma gun

    Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 64pts]
    . 4x Tempestus Scion w/ Plasma Gun: 4x Plasma gun

    Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 64pts]
    . 4x Tempestus Scion w/ Plasma Gun: 4x Plasma gun

    Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 64pts]
    . 4x Tempestus Scion w/ Plasma Gun: 4x Plasma gun

    + Dedicated Transport +

    Taurox Prime [6 PL, 98pts]: Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon
    . Two Hot-shot Volley Guns: Hot-shot Volley Gun

    Taurox Prime [6 PL, 98pts]: Storm Bolter, Taurox Gatling Cannon
    . Two Hot-shot Volley Guns: Hot-shot Volley Gun

    ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [44 PL, 947pts] ++

    + Elites +

    Purifier Squad [9 PL, 213pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
    . 4x Purifier (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter
    . 2x Purifier (Psilencer): 2x Psilencer

    Purifier Squad [9 PL, 213pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . Knight of the Flame: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
    . 4x Purifier (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter
    . 2x Purifier (Psilencer): 2x Psilencer

    + Fast Attack +

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Hammerhand
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
    . 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter
    . Interceptor Justicar: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 152pts]: Hammerhand
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
    . 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter
    . Interceptor Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    + Dedicated Transport +

    Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm Bolter, Twin Assault Cannon

    Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm Bolter, Twin Assault Cannon

    ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Questor Imperialis) [27 PL, 512pts] ++

    + Lord of War +

    Knight Crusader [27 PL, 512pts]: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber, Thermal cannon

    ++ Total: [99 PL, 1991pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe



    Thinking of trying this combined arms force. I don't really know if I would run anything besides Astra militarum with gk due to how expensive gk are.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 05:53:07


    Post by: Quickjager


    How are the purifier squads getting up the field?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 08:49:51


    Post by: Godeskian


     Quickjager wrote:
    How are the purifier squads getting up the field?


    At a guess, inside those Razorbacks


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 09:56:31


    Post by: Bartali


    Nairul wrote:

    For Strike Squads (deep strike) or Interceptors (teleport shunt), a 9" charge is unlikely... it's a 27.8% chance to be exact. These are marines we're talking about. They die easily. Because they're probably not going to make that charge, their best chance of survival is a strong psychic/shooting offense on the turn they arrive. Thus I heavily favor the 4pt Psilencer over a 2pt Storm Bolter/Melee weapon.


    Or, run vehicles. More precisely, Rhinos.
    Advance the Rhinos up turn 1, assault stuff turn2. Deep strike/ shunt your GK stuff turn 2

    Quite tempted to run a Strike (?!) based army. Cheapest way to get Smites and Storm Bolters on the table

    Something like this as a rough template is 1674pts

    Grand Master
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gat Silencer, Fists, Teleporter
    Rhino
    Rhino
    Rhino


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 15:52:38


    Post by: Nairul


    Bartali wrote:
    Nairul wrote:

    For Strike Squads (deep strike) or Interceptors (teleport shunt), a 9" charge is unlikely... it's a 27.8% chance to be exact. These are marines we're talking about. They die easily. Because they're probably not going to make that charge, their best chance of survival is a strong psychic/shooting offense on the turn they arrive. Thus I heavily favor the 4pt Psilencer over a 2pt Storm Bolter/Melee weapon.


    Or, run vehicles. More precisely, Rhinos.
    Advance the Rhinos up turn 1, assault stuff turn2. Deep strike/ shunt your GK stuff turn 2

    Quite tempted to run a Strike (?!) based army. Cheapest way to get Smites and Storm Bolters on the table

    Something like this as a rough template is 1674pts

    Grand Master
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gat Silencer, Fists, Teleporter
    Rhino
    Rhino
    Rhino


    (1) If you're putting Strike Squads in Rhinos... why not instead take Purifiers for the extra Psilencer & D6 smite?
    (2) A list like this, while fun, can get outplayed easily by your opponent during his Deployment/Turn 1. He'll either avoid your Rhinos or pop them and murder the marines inside. Rhinos, I've found, are still flimsy this edition.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 15:56:31


    Post by: Kahor


    Given our army is very elite, I feel much of the effort should be put into either tanking up units (putting them into rhinos etc...), providing target saturation (MSU, though we will struggle with this by the nature of the army) and/or alpha striking.

    I want to try and fit purifiers into my list somewhere. That D6 smite is so good in addition to CC attacks.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 16:57:14


    Post by: Anpu42


    Nairul wrote:
    Bartali wrote:
    Nairul wrote:

    For Strike Squads (deep strike) or Interceptors (teleport shunt), a 9" charge is unlikely... it's a 27.8% chance to be exact. These are marines we're talking about. They die easily. Because they're probably not going to make that charge, their best chance of survival is a strong psychic/shooting offense on the turn they arrive. Thus I heavily favor the 4pt Psilencer over a 2pt Storm Bolter/Melee weapon.


    Or, run vehicles. More precisely, Rhinos.
    Advance the Rhinos up turn 1, assault stuff turn2. Deep strike/ shunt your GK stuff turn 2

    Quite tempted to run a Strike (?!) based army. Cheapest way to get Smites and Storm Bolters on the table

    Something like this as a rough template is 1674pts

    Grand Master
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    5x Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Dreadnought w/ 2x Twin Autocannon
    Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gat Silencer, Fists, Teleporter
    Rhino
    Rhino
    Rhino


    (1) If you're putting Strike Squads in Rhinos... why not instead take Purifiers for the extra Psilencer & D6 smite?
    (2) A list like this, while fun, can get outplayed easily by your opponent during his Deployment/Turn 1. He'll either avoid your Rhinos or pop them and murder the marines inside. Rhinos, I've found, are still flimsy this edition.

    How are they killing them off so quickly?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 17:16:48


    Post by: Nairul


    Played five competitive Matched Play games with this 2,000 pt list and haven't lost yet. Here's my game plan:

    Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
    (1) Knight Crusader (Rapid-fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber, Meltagun, Stormspear Rocket Pod)
    Spearhead Detachment
    (1) Lord Kaldor Draigo
    (5) Interceptor Squad (1x Psilencer, 4x Falchion, 1x Stave, 1x Daemon Hammer)
    (5) Interceptor Squad (1x Psilencer, 6x Falchion, 1x Stave)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greathammer)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)

    Warlord Trait: If playing against an opponent whose units have leadership values 9 or under, give Draigo Inspiring Leader. Otherwise give him Tenacious Survivor.
    Powers: Against MOST opponents... give every Dreadknight Gate, especially the one without Teleporter. Give both Interceptor squads Hammerhand. Give Draigo Purge Soul & Gate.
    Deployment: Knight Crusader, both Interceptor squads, and the Dreadknight without Teleporter start on the table. Other three Dreadknights & Draigo are kept in reinforcements. That's 50% on the table for Matched Play rules. This list often gets first turn.

    Your first turn is crucial.

    Turn 1 (Movement): Move Knight Crusader up the table. DO NOT move Dreadknight.
    Turn 1 (End of Movement): Examine your opponent's deployment and pick a meaty flank -- you're looking for a spot that contains high-priority targets, majority objectives, or both. Set up everything (Draigo, 3x Dreadknights, 10x Interceptors) on that flank. Find the sweet spot between 9.1" and 12" away from enemy units (12" is crucial for Smite range, Purge Soul, and Storm Bolter rapid-fire). Keep everything within 6" of Draigo. Leave room for the fourth Dreadknight.
    Turn 1 (Psychic): Order is important here. (1) Fourth Dreadknight uses Gate to join the army. (2) Draigo uses Purge -- this can target a Character! (3) All other units probably Smite. Usually Hammerhand is not necessary here, as your alpha strike will have crippled any enemy units who were close enough to charge.
    Turn 1 (Shooting): Order is still important. (1) Any units w/ Storm Bolters in rapid-fire range should shoot first. Try to split fire Psilencers into units containing multi-wound models. (2) Dreadknights shoot (one fires at normal BS, because he didn't move) -- try to target units containing multi-wound models. Everything rerolls failed Hits near Draigo. (3) Knight should prefer targets far away from your alpha strike.
    Turn 1 (Charge): By now there's probably nothing close enough to charge! But if they are, go for it.
    Rest of game: Interceptors spread out to grab objectives. One Dreadknight should neglect moving and be gated each turn towards the other flank or wherever your opponent has run. Try to cast Gate on that Dreadknight from an ally unit, so that the Dreadknight can still Smite and shoot at full BS after he's been teleported!


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Anpu42 wrote:
    How are they killing them off so quickly?


    Multi-Dmg weapons. For comparison, I've had an opponent pop my Knight Crusader (24 Wound T8 3+/5++) in his FIRST turn of shooting. And his army was only ~50% shooty. But that's Dark Eldar for you.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 17:29:58


    Post by: Audustum


    Nairul wrote:
    Played five competitive Matched Play games with this 2,000 pt list and haven't lost yet. Here's my game plan:

    Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
    (1) Knight Crusader (Rapid-fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber, Meltagun, Stormspear Rocket Pod)
    Spearhead Detachment
    (1) Lord Kaldor Draigo
    (5) Interceptor Squad (1x Psilencer, 4x Falchion, 1x Stave, 1x Daemon Hammer)
    (5) Interceptor Squad (1x Psilencer, 6x Falchion, 1x Stave)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greathammer)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)
    (1) Nemesis Dreadknight (Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword)

    Warlord Trait: If playing against an opponent whose units have leadership values 9 or under, give Draigo Inspiring Leader. Otherwise give him Tenacious Survivor.
    Powers: Against MOST opponents... give every Dreadknight Gate, especially the one without Teleporter. Give both Interceptor squads Hammerhand. Give Draigo Purge Soul & Gate.
    Deployment: Knight Crusader, both Interceptor squads, and the Dreadknight without Teleporter start on the table. Other three Dreadknights & Draigo are kept in reinforcements. That's 50% on the table for Matched Play rules. This list often gets first turn.

    Your first turn is crucial.

    Turn 1 (Movement): Move Knight Crusader up the table. DO NOT move Dreadknight.
    Turn 1 (End of Movement): Examine your opponent's deployment and pick a meaty flank -- you're looking for a spot that contains high-priority targets, majority objectives, or both. Set up everything (Draigo, 3x Dreadknights, 10x Interceptors) on that flank. Find the sweet spot between 9.1" and 12" away from enemy units (12" is crucial for Smite range, Purge Soul, and Storm Bolter rapid-fire). Keep everything within 6" of Draigo. Leave room for the fourth Dreadknight.
    Turn 1 (Psychic): Order is important here. (1) Fourth Dreadknight uses Gate to join the army. (2) Draigo uses Purge -- this can target a Character! (3) All other units probably Smite. Usually Hammerhand is not necessary here, as your alpha strike will have crippled any enemy units who were close enough to charge.
    Turn 1 (Shooting): Order is still important. (1) Any units w/ Storm Bolters in rapid-fire range should shoot first. Try to split fire Psilencers into units containing multi-wound models. (2) Dreadknights shoot (one fires at normal BS, because he didn't move) -- try to target units containing multi-wound models. Everything rerolls failed Hits near Draigo. (3) Knight should prefer targets far away from your alpha strike.
    Turn 1 (Charge): By now there's probably nothing close enough to charge! But if they are, go for it.
    Rest of game: Interceptors spread out to grab objectives. One Dreadknight should neglect moving and be gated each turn towards the other flank or wherever your opponent has run. Try to cast Gate on that Dreadknight from an ally unit, so that the Dreadknight can still Smite and shoot at full BS after he's been teleported!


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Anpu42 wrote:
    How are they killing them off so quickly?


    Multi-Dmg weapons. For comparison, I've had an opponent pop my Knight Crusader (24 Wound T8 3+/5++) in his FIRST turn of shooting. And his army was only ~50% shooty. But that's Dark Eldar for you.


    Good list, good summary and kind of how I expect things to go (including Knights occasionally getting popped fast). I'm curious though, why do you forego the Avenger Gatling Cannon on the Crusader?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 17:33:19


    Post by: Nairul


    Audustum wrote:

    Good list, good summary and kind of how I expect things to go (including Knights occasionally getting popped fast). I'm curious though, why do you forego the Avenger Gatling Cannon on the Crusader?


    Thanks. Avenger Gatling Cannon comes default on the Crusader, so I didn't feel the need to include it in my write-up.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 17:37:42


    Post by: Anpu42


    Nairul wrote:
     Anpu42 wrote:
    How are they killing them off so quickly?

    Multi-Dmg weapons. For comparison, I've had an opponent pop my Knight Crusader (24 Wound T8 3+/5++) in his FIRST turn of shooting. And his army was only ~50% shooty. But that's Dark Eldar for you.

    Ah one of those kind of list...
    Against most TAC list I keep hearing they are quite durable, your local Meta may vary though.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 17:39:26


    Post by: Audustum


    Nairul wrote:
    Audustum wrote:

    Good list, good summary and kind of how I expect things to go (including Knights occasionally getting popped fast). I'm curious though, why do you forego the Avenger Gatling Cannon on the Crusader?


    Thanks. Avenger Gatling Cannon comes default on the Crusader, so I didn't feel the need to include it in my write-up.


    The mistake is mine. My brain read the meltagun as the Thermal Cannon so I thought you somehow had the RFB and the Thermal without an Avenger. Derp.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/23 22:09:47


    Post by: PUFNSTUF


    Godeskian wrote:
     Quickjager wrote:
    How are the purifier squads getting up the field?


    At a guess, inside those Razorbacks


    That is exactly it.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 00:27:59


    Post by: Quickjager


    Yea missed them when I went over it.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 06:17:00


    Post by: Haveatya


    I've observed a GK vs Tyranid 2000 and played a GK vs Death Guard 2000 and GK vs Dark Eldar 1250. I've had best luck with MSU strikes for fire support to a kill ball of paladins, voldus, and apothecary. Making Voldus warlord and giving him +1 Ld makes him great for purging enemies. My FLGS is slowly devolving into Hero-hammer as my lists are a lot of independent characters. I had a callidus, 2 Brother Champions, 2 apothecaries, a paladin squad, and Voldus supported by a purgation squad, 3xStrikes, and a lascannon dread. I also have started to prefer receiving charges by setting up in cover and having a +1 armor save vs attackers. Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 06:35:21


    Post by: Spartacus


    Haveatya wrote:
    I've observed a GK vs Tyranid 2000 and played a GK vs Death Guard 2000 and GK vs Dark Eldar 1250. I've had best luck with MSU strikes for fire support to a kill ball of paladins, voldus, and apothecary. Making Voldus warlord and giving him +1 Ld makes him great for purging enemies. My FLGS is slowly devolving into Hero-hammer as my lists are a lot of independent characters. I had a callidus, 2 Brother Champions, 2 apothecaries, a paladin squad, and Vodlus supported by a purgation squad, 3xStrikes, and a lascannon dread. I also have started to prefer receiving charges by setting up in cover and having a +1 armor save vs attackers. Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


    Do you mean you are claiming the +1 to armour save during the fight phase?

    The cover rules give no benefit during close combat unfortunately, just like last edition. I am loving how tough a target terminators become now while in cover. Previously, they very rarely gained any benefit.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 06:47:43


    Post by: Haveatya


    No but the shooting then charge, using cover to nullify most shooting then overwatching as they come. I rarely charge now. If you receive you can normally activate twice sequentially. Unless there are multiple combats but I have yet to really have that happen somehow.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 08:53:04


    Post by: Nairul


    Haveatya wrote:
    I Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


    But... what about the math?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 08:58:35


    Post by: Godeskian


    Nairul wrote:
    Haveatya wrote:
    I Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


    But... what about the math?


    Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 10:21:13


    Post by: Quickjager


    If you guys did the math... you would see that Psycannon is stronger against higher T units. The previous Mathhammer was in regards to total average of efficiency to a T range of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

    AVERAGE of a RANGE. If you do your own mathhammer of T7 specifically, the Psycannon becomes superior. Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.

    Mathhammer is always right in the end...


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 15:44:55


    Post by: Haveatya


    Grey Knights have a lack of things that produce high volume of fire at high strength except for Razorbacks, Land Raiders, and Dreads. Having my Purgation team use gate of infinity to reposition and fire at normal 3+ BS is great for putting wounds on stranded characters or putting ripping up lighter transports.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 17:02:45


    Post by: Nairul


     Quickjager wrote:
    If you guys did the math... you would see that Psycannon is stronger against higher T units. The previous Mathhammer was in regards to total average of efficiency to a T range of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

    AVERAGE of a RANGE. If you do your own mathhammer of T7 specifically, the Psycannon becomes superior. Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.


    **Sighs** Let's do the math again.

    Assume your unit has moved in the preceding movement phase. As requested, you're shooting at a T7 Unit with 3+ armour save.

    Psycannon (14 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0357 Damage per Point
    Psilencer (4 pts) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage per Point

     Quickjager wrote:
    Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.


    Nope!

    Psycannon (14 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wound --> 0.34 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.34 Damage --> 0.0243 Damage per Point
    Psilencer (4 pts) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 0.5 Wound --> 0.17 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.34 Damage --> 0.085 Damage per Point

     Quickjager wrote:
    Mathhammer is always right in the end...


    It sure is.

    Godeskian wrote:


    Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.


    Definitiely. I'm aware this is a game of dice. I choose NOT to ignore the probabilities, but instead embrace them. Understanding the probabilities develops a deeper understanding of the game. This is why I mathhammer =) Also we're in Tactica Discussion.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:04:08


    Post by: Quickjager


    You know what I used the Heavy Psycannon profile, 2. Yep.

    EDIT: Also, I wasn't talking efficiency per point. But it didn't matter.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:09:22


    Post by: Seizeman


    Why are you assuming units teleported by gate do not have a hit modifier? Rules clearly state they count as having moved.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:19:47


    Post by: Haveatya


    Seizeman wrote:
    Why are you assuming units teleported by gate do not have a hit modifier? Rules clearly state they count as having moved.

    We couldn't find anything? Where do you see that.

    Gate of Infinity says nothing about the unit counting as moving as if it was the movement phase. Heavy descriptor says the unit must have moved in the move phase. The power goes off in the psychic phase so does not qualify. RAW I don't see your argument anywhere.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:31:52


    Post by: Seizeman


    Rulebook states that any unit set up on the battlefield mid-turn counts as having moved. Gate makes you remove the unit and set it up mid.turn.

    On another topic, I've tried the Doomglaive dreadnought and it is really good. In melee he's better than a dreadknight and the heavy psycannon is arguably the best ranged weapon available to a dread. He has smite plus an extra power and all the benefits of a venerable. Just for 168 points, which is less than any other variant for how much it does.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:38:38


    Post by: Haveatya


    Seizeman wrote:
    Rulebook states that any unit set up on the battlefield mid-turn counts as having moved. Gate makes you remove the unit and set it up mid.turn.

    On another topic, I've tried the Doomglaive dreadnought and it is really good. In melee he's better than a dreadknight and the heavy psycannon is arguably the best ranged weapon available to a dread. He has smite plus an extra power and all the benefits of a venerable. Just for 168 points, which is less than any other variant for how much it does.


    That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:53:55


    Post by: Seizeman


    "That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

    Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 18:57:47


    Post by: Nairul


    Seizeman wrote:
    "That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

    Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.


    Gate of Infinity is NOT Reinforcements, so that doesn't apply.

    For comparison, Orks have a similar psychic power: Da Jump. Except Da Jump states explicitly "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules (e.g. firing Heavy weapons)."


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 19:02:22


    Post by: Seizeman


    How is not reinforcements? Reinforcements is defined as " a unit set up mid-turn". There's no other definition for reinforcements on the rulebook.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 19:05:53


    Post by: Haveatya


    Nairul wrote:
    Seizeman wrote:
    "That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

    Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.


    Gate of Infinity is NOT Reinforcements, so that doesn't apply.

    For comparison, Orks have a similar psychic power: Da Jump. Except Da Jump states explicitly "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules (e.g. firing Heavy weapons)."


    I was gonna agree with Seize but now that you said this I am back to my interpretation.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Seizeman wrote:
    How is not reinforcements? Reinforcements is defined as " a unit set up mid-turn". There's no other definition for reinforcements on the rulebook.
    Considering the two powers are identical, minus that text, I would have to say it doesn't apply to GOI. Otherwise both, or neither, would have it.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 19:27:07


    Post by: Seizeman


    So terminators teleporting from their teleportation chamber or using their beacon don't have the penalty either? There's no need for their rules to state that they count as having moved because that's already covered by the core rules. As per the reinforcements rule, there's absolutely no difference between a terminator deploying from the teleport chamber and grey knights using Gate.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 19:41:55


    Post by: Spartacus


    I brought this up earlier in the thread, I think, can't remember exactly.

    The arguement is that, in the pg177 margin rule, there are 2 seperate conditions:

    1. Units that are set up (in this manner) cannot move or advance further that turn.

    2. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved for purposes etc...

    The argument is that the Gate squad only counts for the first condition, as it was already on the table that turn and is therefore not 'Reinforcements'.

    It seems a very tenuous exploitation of the wording to me, I believe the squad does count as reinforcements based on the fact that the entire rule column on pg 177 is called 'Reinforcements '. If you're using those rules, you count as reinforcements in all respects. Unfortunately it isn't ironed out and the rules isn't very clear. Could be called either way. Hopefully will be cleared up by an FAQ.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 20:18:27


    Post by: Nairul


    Units that started the turn on-the-board and use Gate of Infinity are not "Arriving as Reinforcements". They were already on the battlefield.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 20:42:42


    Post by: Seizeman


    The reinforcement rule says absolutely nothing about "starting the turn on the board", it talks about units being set up from outside the battlefield. Gate of infinity says "remove the unit from the battlefield and set it ".

    There are not different categories of reinforcements, every unit that comes into the battlefiel mid-turn is a reinforcement.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/24 21:31:02


    Post by: Spartacus


    Didn't mean to restart the argument, The main issue here is that there is no definition for what the term Reinforcements actually is, and is open to interpretation.

    Can we agree that it needs FAQing?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 00:15:53


    Post by: Godeskian


    Nairul wrote:

    Godeskian wrote:


    Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.


    Definitiely. I'm aware this is a game of dice. I choose NOT to ignore the probabilities, but instead embrace them. Understanding the probabilities develops a deeper understanding of the game. This is why I mathhammer =) Also we're in Tactica Discussion.


    I'm being unclear. There is more to this game than purely rolling dice. Yes, maximising your probabilities is always a wise move, but being able to effectively maneuvre (harder than it looks with a base 5'' move on troops), deal with LoS blocking terrain and so forth is also part of the game. For that matter, proper target selection is immensely more important in an edition of split fire and variable weapon damages than it ever has been.

    The math might say that under perfectly average conditions x shots does x wounds and x saves are made, but those perfectly average circumstances are uncommon at best.

    Mathhammer has it's place, but the dice are not the whole story.

    And yes, it's a tactica thread, but it seems to me that anything not related to weapon probabilities gets scant discussion.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 01:08:28


    Post by: Quickjager


    Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficency.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 02:03:54


    Post by: Fenris-77


     Quickjager wrote:
    Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficiency.
    Yup. That also means that if you are choosing a sub-optimal load out, probably in favor of filling a tactical niche, you can do so knowing exacting what you're gaining and losing. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes field stuff (read buy stuff) just because it looks cool, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know hoe efficiently I'm spending my points.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 02:10:35


    Post by: TheMostWize


    How can we run the Dreadnought with a psycannon? Are forgeworld rules updated for 8th?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 03:19:35


    Post by: Quickjager


     Fenris-77 wrote:
     Quickjager wrote:
    Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficiency.
    Yup. That also means that if you are choosing a sub-optimal load out, probably in favor of filling a tactical niche, you can do so knowing exacting what you're gaining and losing. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes field stuff (read buy stuff) just because it looks cool, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know hoe efficiently I'm spending my points.


    I mean if you know your meta, obviously build for it. But right now there is none so we turn towards the number crunching.

    Also yes the GK Dreadnought did get an update.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 09:10:07


    Post by: Godeskian


    This is going to sound like a stupid question. I know that if you're in close combat you can use psychic powers, but if there is a Cc happening near you, can you smite or purge into it with a unit not involved in the cc?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/06/25 11:06:19


    Post by: TheMostWize


    I am assuming I would have to buy the new imperial armor book to find the rules then?