General Thoughts -
We're very much a shooting army, now. Not too too different from 7th edition, but our robots and Onagers got MUCH better. Preliminary reports put us in the top tier of 8th edition armies, due to artillery power, but I'm sure that this will change. Kataphrons were rendered mostly obsolete by our other shooting units being so much better (Best way to say it, is that whilst Kataphrons are great in a vacuum, AdMech is not a vacuum). Kastellan Robots, Ironstrider Ballistarii, and Onager Dunecrawlers are going to be our absolute best units this edition, unless Fires Of Cyraxus introduces something better.
Three main rules of AdMech are these.
1. Have at least 50% of your list be heavy artillery. That's Kastellans, Ironstrider Ballistarii, or Onagers.
2. Run screening units for your artillery. Infiltrators are good for that, as are small Skitarii units. Unsupported artillery is dead artillery when the angry meatbags with chainsaws come in.
3. Do not run Skitarii units of more than 5 men. For some reason, our Leadership is now hilariously low, so there's no point in taking more Skitarii to run away with.
HQ The optimal HQ choice. Durability and ability to make your artillery units reroll failed To Hit rolls makes him nearly an auto-take. Weapons aren't particularly notable, but the gun seems good, and Cawl can competently fight weaker units in CC. You're not taking him for combat power, however. You're taking him because he lets your Kastellans and Onagers reroll. Make a little bunker with him. a Datasmith to make your robots stand still and shoot twice, and as many Kastellans as you can fit in his radius. Archmagos is pretty much useless because it only affects rolls on the table, and anyone in a competitive setting will be picking and choosing. Situationally useful if you choose to random roll to try to get a canticle you've already used. His only downside is only buffing the Mars keyword, but if your army isn't Mars, think this way. They are Martians in spirit.
With Cawl, use the best canticles first, then roll and try to get those again. You get a choice of 3 so you'll probably get something good.
Cawl Lite, who buffs units within 6", ignoring which Forge World they're from. Useful if you're insisting upon Cyraxian Pride, or something, and don't want to use Cawl. Volkite is a good way of defending himself, and the units that he's buffing. When you take him and Cawl, set him up with other artillery units, such as your Onagers, who have a better ballistic skill than Kastellans. Have him repair them when someone tries to squish the spidertanks. Not a great HQ, mostly take him as a HQ tax for more CP. You can't shoot Macrostubber and another gun at the same turn. Probably better to go Serpenta, unless you plan on getting in close combat, which is possible since you might want him to escort vanguard forward to objectives.
Troops The best Troops choice in the army. Sadly nerfed in the new edition, but by no means rendered nonviable, and still better than Rangers, and cheaper than Kataphrons. Radium Carbines are surprisingly good basic weapons, due to wound doubling, and their -1 toughness aura is effective as a deterrent for people trying to charge your artillery. Arc Rifles, despite being nerfed, are still effective, and Plasma Calivers are respectable weapons. Transuranic Arquebi do not synergize with Vanguard. Main rule 2 absolutely applies here. 5 man squads are always better than 10 man.
The second best Troops choice in the army, although nowhere near as good as Vanguard. Their guns are not as effective as they should be, however they serve the vital purpose of carrying Arquebi to snipe enemy characters. 1x5 or 2x5 with 2 Arquebi, and no more. Keep them immobile, on objectives, and with good sight lines.
Grav is still better than Plasma. Wicked expensive, and overshadowed by the rest of our amazing artillery. I'd skip these.
The worst Troops choice we have. Just aren't effective enough offensively, in combat or in shooting, for the points. Skip even harder.
Elites Sicarian Infiltrators -
A respectable close combat unit that puts out loads of hits, with Pistol 5 weapons, and chain-wounding staffs. Ignore the Power Sword/Stubcarbine variant, because it's overshadowed by Taser, yet again. With 8" movement, rapid threats, and decently durable. Either use them as actual infiltrators, to take out enemy stuff with hopeful turn one 9" charges, or keep them in the backlines to charge enemy units that threaten your artillery. They're our only deep strike, so you'll want to use it.
Sicarian Ruststalkers -
Lost native AP2 after round 2 of combat, but now output mortal wounds. Not bad enough to be 100% ignored, but not good enough to be seriously taken. If you really want to take these guys, run them with all Razors/Chordclaws with Blade/Chordclaw on the Princeps. That's the most effective loadout, due to Chordclaws being very good weapons. They lost the amazing grenades, as well. Take if you will. I cannot skip or endorse them yet.
Cybernetica Datasmith -
A tax unit. Take him, switch your Kastellan protocol to protector, and have him sit on an objective or go inspect a pretty flower in the enemy deployment zone. I recommend only taking one.
A solid close combat unit. Probably best in squads of 5. but untested to my knowlege. The 3++ after wiping an enemy unit is now actually useful, due to the improved Staves. Very credible threat on the battlefield, and one of our best units.
Good mixed purpose unit, but not as good as Fulgurites. Do an excellent job of spamming out the hits and wounds. Use these to defend your artillery, and rush the enemy when they're close.
Techpriest Enginseer -
It exists. Probably would be better as a cheap HQ, because right now he's just kinda worthless. If you don't have a Dominus to spare, put him with your Kastellans or Onagers. If you do, don't take him.
Servitors -
Mediocre shooting unit with mandatory overpriced melee weapons. Skip.
Fast Attack Ironstrider Balistarii -
Solid artillery unit. Autocannons aren't exactly worth the points, but Lascannons are amazingly effective, on a cheap, mobile platform. Take solo Balistarii to fill those Fast Attack slots, and provide harassing lascannon shots into the enemy's more important units.
Sydonian Dragoons -
Not bad. These guys are incredibly fast skirmishers, built for rushing, waiting for the enemy to withdraw, and hitting again. The only issue here is that they aren't as good as Balistarii, and take up the same slot. No real opinion, due to being untested. Suprisingly durable due to the -1 to hit. Especially against "failed to hit re-rolls" since if the opponent rolls within his BS, he can't re-roll and only THEN you apply the -1 modifier. The taser lances are really weird though, with no AP and 2 damage, it wants to fight against multiple wound units with 6+ or worse armour save or the ones that rely on invulnerable saves.
Heavy Support Our best unit. Protector Protocol lets them double-tap their weapons, which is incredibly powerful with triple Heavy Phosphor, which is the optimal loadout. Take squads of two, position them properly, and become ze artillery. Always remember your Datasmith hanger-on to make them into immobile death machines. Protect these guys, because they're your main offensive firepower. The repulsor grids are nice, and tack on a little bit more value, but don't expect them to do too much good.
Remember, they only become incredibly shooty on turn 2, after the protocol is switched. Repulsor grids with Aegis mode (+1) reflect shots on 5+ which is something to keep in mind
Best with Neutron Laser or Icarus Array, as our sole provider of anti-Flyer (Although thankfully not as needed as in 7th). Neutron lasers are excellent artillery, doing a guaranteed 3 damage, with possibility of more. I recommend taking two and putting a Dominus with them, so that the crabs can benefit from the rerolling invulns, and can be given rerolling ones to hit with the lasers/arrays and repaired as needed. If you're taking one Dunecrawler, give it Icarus. If you're taking two, one Neutron, one Icarus. With three, take two Neutrons and one Icarus. You don't need THAT much AA, unless you're playing Elysian Guard or Necrons (If Cron Air is still relevant).
These summaries brought to you by rvd1ofakind, comments on this thread, battle reports, and my own writing.
It is a little boring, in that I don't have a few units I like. But it looks fun and decently competitive (I think?). Cawl camps with shooty units (Vanguard, Neutrons). The Arquebus are there to pick off characters (in theory). It has d3 damage or a mortal wound, which seems useful... though who knows! They are pricey.
Quad Balistarii should light up armor and big stuff. Neutrons as well. Icarus is there for that rando flyer, but can also lob a ton of shots at -1 BS. Robots light up (lol) infantry under Protector Protocols, meaning 36 shots from the Phosphor 'bots and the Fist bot is there to cover Melee needs. Aegis is nice too, obviously, when they are getting into position.
That is it so far for my brainstorming. It is a 2k list because from what I can tell, that will be the new normal.
Thanks again for this new thread and for the leaks For my part I'm reading the full Index 2: Imperium book as it was leaked in the general V8 Thread over in News, and I'm trying to think of a list with the units I own and the ones I want from the Imperium. But there's a detail that's been bogging me down:
If you have a Battle-forged army, units only receive the bonus if every model in their Detachment has this ability.
So that means if I want to ally a Start Collecting! force of Tempestus Scions, I'll have to arrange them in their own detachment if I want to keep the Canticles in my Mechanicus army. I understand it from a certain point of view for fluff reasons, but even then the presence of other Imperium units shouldn't disturb their canticles :/ So I can't add them in my current army to form a Bataillon Detachment to gain 3 Command Points, I'll need to have a second Techpriest or Belisarius Cawl if I want to build that. Hmph, I don't want to paint another Techpriest Dominus :(
It is a little boring, in that I don't have a few units I like. But it looks fun and decently competitive (I think?). Cawl camps with shooty units (Vanguard, Neutrons). The Arquebus are there to pick off characters (in theory). It has d3 damage or a mortal wound, which seems useful... though who knows! They are pricey.
Quad Balistarii should light up armor and big stuff. Neutrons as well. Icarus is there for that rando flyer, but can also lob a ton of shots at -1 BS. Robots light up (lol) infantry under Protector Protocols, meaning 36 shots from the Phosphor 'bots and the Fist bot is there to cover Melee needs. Aegis is nice too, obviously, when they are getting into position.
That is it so far for my brainstorming. It is a 2k list because from what I can tell, that will be the new normal.
Seems functional to me. The Kastelans will serve as an efficient anti-infantry unit, and your Neutronagers and Balistarii seem like good AV. One thing you lack is cheap units to screen your big dudes. You do not want to get a Kastelan unit tied up in CC because of some enemy Warp Spiders or bikers, and lose models/their shooting next turn.
It is a little boring, in that I don't have a few units I like. But it looks fun and decently competitive (I think?). Cawl camps with shooty units (Vanguard, Neutrons). The Arquebus are there to pick off characters (in theory). It has d3 damage or a mortal wound, which seems useful... though who knows! They are pricey.
Quad Balistarii should light up armor and big stuff. Neutrons as well. Icarus is there for that rando flyer, but can also lob a ton of shots at -1 BS. Robots light up (lol) infantry under Protector Protocols, meaning 36 shots from the Phosphor 'bots and the Fist bot is there to cover Melee needs. Aegis is nice too, obviously, when they are getting into position.
That is it so far for my brainstorming. It is a 2k list because from what I can tell, that will be the new normal.
Sorry but for me the 10 Vanguards with 3 Arquebii is a fatal error, you'd be better off doing small units of Rangers for that role, as your snipers should be far enough from the enemy, the 30" range on the Galvanic Rifles will be better to stay useful than the puny 18" from the Vanguards. You'll want to have two squads (one with two Arquebii and another with only one for example) so you can place them at two opposite corners of your deployment zone, so as to have a better coverage of the battlefield. I mean, if the Character you're hunting is hidden from sight from your point of view, you'll have three expensive weapons shooting at regular guys. You also take the risk of losing all your eggs if you put them in the same basket, you see ?
Very interesting changes, we lost a lot of smaller interesting rules and abilities (as was expected) and got nerved (like everyone else) but there are some interesting tidbits.
Canticles seem a bit more useful now, and looking at the faction keyword, it seems that skitarii and cult are still devided to some extent which I didn't expect.
Too bad we lost imperatives, maby we get some nuances back once we get our own codexes again.
Verviedi wrote: Oh, yes, good point. I skimmed over the fact that they were Vanguard, not Rangers. I recommend making them 2x5 Rangers, instead of 10x Vanguard.
Good point. Vanguard seem generally better, but for this purpose it seems Rangers are the better option.
Same premise, but dropped an Onager because it seemed like I had plenty of anti-tank. This gives me two units to snipe at characters and hold down my tableside objectives. The Robots muscle their way up the table and shoot stuff up. I did have enough to toss in another Balistarii - so the loss of the extra Neutron shouldn't be too bad.
As for Kastelans getting locked down in CC, the enemy has to get in and if I am under Protector, they are eating double Overwatch and then they get slapped around with my CC attacks. I don't think anyone wants a piece of that!
Note that the dunecrawler Neutron laser upgrade ALSO includes a cognis heavy stubber as well, automatically. So you need to allocate points to that if you take a neutron laser.
Jackal444 wrote: Note that the dunecrawler Neutron laser upgrade ALSO includes a cognis heavy stubber as well, automatically. So you need to allocate points to that if you take a neutron laser.
Fixed. I messed up some points because listbuilding is tedious as hell now!
Here you go. Compiled all the photos into a nice word file with some wording changes for easier reading, Including points on the Units instead of in the back and a rules cheat sheet.
And now to make that excel spread sheet for 2 reasons:
1. Easier list building
2. See the effectiveness of units vs Tactical marines and some other dudes (gimme some advice on who I should test them against. I'm thinking MEQ, TEQ, T8 3+ Save)
I will most likely take a second detachment with some inquisitors and a Vindicare assassin.
Because Inquisitors are massive morale boosters and psykers. Greyfax seems like a pretty good deal, since she gets a +1 on her deny the witch rolls.
The assassins all got a pretty good buff since their pointcosts were greatly lowered and the Vindicare seems extra tasty because his rifle does not allow his target to take invulnerable saves while rocking a decent -3AP ratio with a special rule that denies save bonuses from cover. The Vindicare also got a lot harder to take out since it is a character now, so your opponent can only target him when he is the closest target or when they also got something sniperlike.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here you go. Compiled all the photos into a nice word file with some wording changes for easier reading, Including points on the Units instead of in the back and a rules cheat sheet.
And now to make that excel spread sheet for 2 reasons:
1. Easier list building
2. See the effectiveness of units vs Tactical marines and some other dudes (gimme some advice on who I should test them against. I'm thinking MEQ, TEQ, T8 3+ Save)
Edit: I put it in so you can see the WIP
Thanks, that should help some of us wading through all the book
I feel in this edition we will REALLY need lots of anti-tank/anti-MC. With the basic Rhinos having 10-11 W transports will be more effective at not blowing up/get immobilised and you'll need focused fire to bring them down. Especially since they got a lot faster while still being able to shoot. By the way I checked the transports of the Imperium and they only allow their own sub-faction to be transported, so really no transports for us now. If only we still had Scout or something :/ At least everything save our infantry is faster so they'll hopefully soak up some shots.
Oh the Sisters of Silence got kind of nerfed too, they're not the Nullifiers they were before. Now they're still immune themselves to Psychic attacks, but the bubble was changed so that every psyker has a malus of -1 for his pychic tests for every Sisters of Silence unit within 18", cumulative up to -4 if there is 4 units. I can still see them going up front to prevent them from smiting your own units and get them in CC, I equipped my 10 Sisters with Executioner Greatblades, it's S+1 AP-3 and 1D3 Damage, and Sisters can reroll failed wound rolls against Psykers. They have a 7" move too, so I guess I'll make them escort my Kastelan Robots when I'll build some with Fists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also note you don't pay extra points for the sergeant anymore, this favorises MSU even more since it's no longer more expensive. However we lost the 2W Alpha, kind of sad about that, I loved bragging about how my Alpha survived this :/ With their lower Ld you'll be happy to have that extra Ld7 from the Alpha, I'm going to play MSU definitely, plus it's easier to fill the Troops requirements for the Detachments
How to use the list builder:
If you use Power, then you can use the first sheet and be fine. Just change the # of units column.
If you use Points, then copy the units you want to use to the empty sheet. If you want to use more than 1 of the same unit - copy multiple rows. Don't touch the # of units column. You can change every Green cell with Red borders otherwise.
Tell me if I made any mistakes
What do you guys think of the new Dragoon?
I really like it, sure they are a bit more expensive, but they are still very good and can kill small vehicles quite easily.
Updated the excel file to make Point list building more convenient and added an example list of all my models
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arlen wrote: What do you guys think of the new Dragoon?
I really like it, sure they are a bit more expensive, but they are still very good and can kill small vehicles quite easily.
Updated the excel file to make Point list building more convenient and added an example list of all my models
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arlen wrote: What do you guys think of the new Dragoon?
I really like it, sure they are a bit more expensive, but they are still very good and can kill small vehicles quite easily.
Updated the excel file to make Point list building more convenient and added an example list of all my models
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arlen wrote: What do you guys think of the new Dragoon?
I really like it, sure they are a bit more expensive, but they are still very good and can kill small vehicles quite easily.
Jackal444 wrote: Note that the dunecrawler Neutron laser upgrade ALSO includes a cognis heavy stubber as well, automatically. So you need to allocate points to that if you take a neutron laser.
Fixed. I messed up some points because listbuilding is tedious as hell now!
Can't have datatether and smoke lauchers. They're mutually exclusive aren't they?
Jackal444 wrote: Note that the dunecrawler Neutron laser upgrade ALSO includes a cognis heavy stubber as well, automatically. So you need to allocate points to that if you take a neutron laser.
Fixed. I messed up some points because listbuilding is tedious as hell now!
Can't have datatether and smoke lauchers. They're mutually exclusive aren't they?
*eye twitch*
*rips hair out*
Correct.
So, in my latest list which features zero actual Skitarii (tragically), I can go Smoke. If my list goes for troops, I will go Tether.
This edition has robbed me of all my listbuilding joy.
It is a little boring, in that I don't have a few units I like. But it looks fun and decently competitive (I think?). Cawl camps with shooty units (Vanguard, Neutrons). The Arquebus are there to pick off characters (in theory). It has d3 damage or a mortal wound, which seems useful... though who knows! They are pricey.
Quad Balistarii should light up armor and big stuff. Neutrons as well. Icarus is there for that rando flyer, but can also lob a ton of shots at -1 BS. Robots light up (lol) infantry under Protector Protocols, meaning 36 shots from the Phosphor 'bots and the Fist bot is there to cover Melee needs. Aegis is nice too, obviously, when they are getting into position.
That is it so far for my brainstorming. It is a 2k list because from what I can tell, that will be the new normal.
Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.
You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.
Arlen wrote: What do you guys think of the new Dragoon?
I really like it, sure they are a bit more expensive, but they are still very good and can kill small vehicles quite easily.
I'm not so sure. I mean, they wound typical vehicles on 4+ or 3+ but they have no AP value to speak of. Rhinos and the like are all 3+ save. Even things like DE raiders have a good chance of saving any damage you put out.
With that said, I dont really know what their purpose is. Targeting multi wound, fairly lightly armored infantry? One Dragoon averages 2 wounds on a Tyranid Warrior, 3.5 if you roll a 6.
I'm just not sure.
Edit:
Also, is everyone planning to run Spearhead? I have a hard time even justifying a Battalion. 1-2 Onagers and 1-2 Kastelens just doesnt seem to cut it.
Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.
You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.
Kastelans with Protector Protocols lobs 36 shots that hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and ignore their armor save. That is about 12 dead Genestealers per Kastelan squad in shooting. Then I get to double Overwatch too and in that, I have the Combuster too. Then we can factor in Cawl, who let's me re-roll hit rolls. So, likely I will drop a fair chunk before they can get into me in CC, for which they then need to try wounding my T7 Robots that will go over to double Fight mode.
This is ignoring all the other aspects of the armies in questions, obviously, but I think my anti-horde ability will be decent.
As for the second point, why would I want to try to shoehorn in a bunch of other Imperial factions and how would I even do that and benefit? It also ruins my theme, costs me more cash, and probably doesn't bring me much benefit overall.
Also, is everyone planning to run Spearhead? I have a hard time even justifying a Battalion. 1-2 Onagers and 1-2 Kastelens just doesnt seem to cut it.
I am thinking Spearhead and Outrider, now, honestly. Someone in my army list post mentioned it and it allows me to spread out my heavies and fast attack slots and, unless I can find it somewhere tucked in the new rulebook, Troops are not needed for scoring as any model will work.
So why not? Plus, I get 5 CP that way too. That might prove useful and perhaps even more so when we get our actual Codex and maybe get army-specific strats.
So why not? Plus, I get 5 CP that way too. That might prove useful and perhaps even more so when we get our actual Codex and maybe get army-specific strats.
Good thinking! Only -1 CP compared to the battalion, and any combination of the three "focused" detachments ends up with 3-8 for two slots. I will probably go with Vanguard/Spearhead, if only because I might like more than one Datasmith and might want to splash an Enginseer for my Onagers.
We're certain all the rules/buffs work across detachments right? Techpriest dominus rerolls, etc?
Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.
You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.
Kastelans with Protector Protocols lobs 36 shots that hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and ignore their armor save. That is about 12 dead Genestealers per Kastelan squad in shooting.
Genestealers have a 5+ invulnerable save. They could also charge you turn one. I'm not impressed by those 36 shots. I really don't think you can deal with hordes at all. You could easily be facing 200 single wound models in many games.
Heck, 200 Brimstone Horrors with 4+ invulnerable saves only costs 400 points, and they'll be putting mortal wounds on you with Smite.
So why not? Plus, I get 5 CP that way too. That might prove useful and perhaps even more so when we get our actual Codex and maybe get army-specific strats.
Good thinking! Only -1 CP compared to the battalion, and any combination of the three "focused" detachments ends up with 3-8 for two slots. I will probably go with Vanguard/Spearhead, if only because I might like more than one Datasmith and might want to splash an Enginseer for my Onagers.
We're certain all the rules/buffs work across detachments right? Techpriest dominus rerolls, etc?
For re-rolls and stuff, it is Keyword based, so it should apply to all detachments provided they have that Keyword.
Also, you get two Elites slots in each, which means you can easily get four Datasmiths (though you likely won't need that many). And don't forget that Cawl and the Dominus can repair your models - not just vehicles, but anything. I would only run Enginseers if you were pairing with Guard.
So why not? Plus, I get 5 CP that way too. That might prove useful and perhaps even more so when we get our actual Codex and maybe get army-specific strats.
Good thinking! Only -1 CP compared to the battalion, and any combination of the three "focused" detachments ends up with 3-8 for two slots. I will probably go with Vanguard/Spearhead, if only because I might like more than one Datasmith and might want to splash an Enginseer for my Onagers.
We're certain all the rules/buffs work across detachments right? Techpriest dominus rerolls, etc?
For re-rolls and stuff, it is Keyword based, so it should apply to all detachments provided they have that Keyword.
Also, you get two Elites slots in each, which means you can easily get four Datasmiths (though you likely won't need that many). And don't forget that Cawl and the Dominus can repair your models - not just vehicles, but anything. I would only run Enginseers if you were pairing with Guard.
Btw, try my list builder to not make silly mistakes like before :p
It has error checking
Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.
You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.
Kastelans with Protector Protocols lobs 36 shots that hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and ignore their armor save. That is about 12 dead Genestealers per Kastelan squad in shooting.
Genestealers have a 5+ invulnerable save. They could also charge you turn one. I'm not impressed by those 36 shots. I really don't think you can deal with hordes at all. You could easily be facing 200 single wound models in many games.
Heck, 200 Brimstone Horrors with 4+ invulnerable saves only costs 400 points, and they'll be putting mortal wounds on you with Smite.
A 5++ isn't the end-all. They still will die pretty fast. And really, if anyone brings hordes like that, I will be absolutely shocked. It always sounds good on paper, but I have seen precious few in tourneys over the years. It takes too long to set-up, move, and resolve all those models.
Also, "you don't need to have anti-tank everywhere" is pretty short-sighted. You think Marines don't exist? Look at a Rhino and tell me we don't need antitank. Or a Land Raider.
And honestly, AdMech doesn't really strike me as a faction with the tools to handle huge hordes anyhow. Not that I am going to sweat them too much until I see them.
Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.
You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.
Kastelans with Protector Protocols lobs 36 shots that hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and ignore their armor save. That is about 12 dead Genestealers per Kastelan squad in shooting.
Genestealers have a 5+ invulnerable save. They could also charge you turn one. I'm not impressed by those 36 shots. I really don't think you can deal with hordes at all. You could easily be facing 200 single wound models in many games.
Heck, 200 Brimstone Horrors with 4+ invulnerable saves only costs 400 points, and they'll be putting mortal wounds on you with Smite.
A 5++ isn't the end-all. They still will die pretty fast. And really, if anyone brings hordes like that, I will be absolutely shocked. It always sounds good on paper, but I have seen precious few in tourneys over the years. It takes too long to set-up, move, and resolve all those models.
Also, "you don't need to have anti-tank everywhere" is pretty short-sighted. You think Marines don't exist? Look at a Rhino and tell me we don't need antitank. Or a Land Raider.
And honestly, AdMech doesn't really strike me as a faction with the tools to handle huge hordes anyhow. Not that I am going to sweat them too much until I see them.
You need to remember a lot of things have changed. A T7 3+ vehicle like the Rhino dies to Bolters easier than Plague Marines do. The Bolter wounds both the Rhino and the Plague Marine on 5+, but the Plague Marines have their Disgustingly Resilient while the Rhino doesn't. So the Rhino is basically about 6 Plague Marines to the Bolters, not some incredible high toughness beast.
Guys posted all infantry IG shooty armies already in their tactics thread. 170 models or so and fifty+ heavy weapons and that's just for 1850 points.
People played Warhammer Fantasy with armies ranging from 100 to 350 models ALL the time. I've no doubt people can do that in 40K too. It's a new game.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not your enemy. I'm just challenging you to find a way to deal with hordes. It's a problem every army will face. The more multiwound models you have, the weaker you are to most of the special and heavy weapons in the game. If you keep yourself to W1 everywhere, all the excess damage is lost. Whenever possible, I'd avoid multiwound models altogether. They are a weakness, not a strength. Unless of course horribly underpriced.
Go back to my example of the Rhino and 6 Plague Marines being similarly survivable against bolters. Now, which one is more resistant to a lascannon? The Rhino will simply detonate, while the Plague Marines might not even lose a single wound. In fact, that's the maximum they can ever lose to the lascannon, AND they get a special save. This example isn't in any way to say Rhino is bad or Plague Marines are good, but to demonstrate the similarity in how small weapons fire affects them.
I get where you are coming from, but I don't see it panning out practically.
Also, Warhammer Fantasy had movement trays. I used to run 200+ models and without trays it was not doable and even with them, I hated it.
As a former Guard player, I can tell you trying to run an army of 170 models will be tedious and, most likely, boring as hell. Most people want more toys than that and beyond a few dedicated TFGs, I doubt anyone will come packing a serious horde.
I am not saying your point isn't valid, I am just saying it doesn't seem real-world applicable.
Plus, as I said, AdMech have no real tools to combat hordes. The Kastelans are a solid option, honestly. They can crank out a good rate of fire for an AdMech unit and won't die too fast.
Do you have any food for thought on how AdMech can deal with hordes? If you want to toss out this worry, don't just do it and not help make a plan!
No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.
When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome. How on earth will anyone ever mop up 200 wounds of 4+ inv Brimstone Horrors, while dealing with the other 1600 points of actual army, is beyond me. 5200 points of Tactical Marines with boltguns would only kill about 180 points worth of those Horrors single tapping their guns.
No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.
When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome.
Yeaaaaaaaaaa. The loss of templates was not handled well. The Thermal Cannon rules got it right, sorta. "When targeting units with 5 or more models...blah blah" should be on all formerly-blast weapons. Doubling the hit based on unit size is perfect and not present on nearly enough weapons.
No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.
When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome.
Yeaaaaaaaaaa. The loss of templates was not handled well. The Thermal Cannon rules got it right, sorta. "When targeting units with 5 or more models...blah blah" should be on all formerly-blast weapons. Doubling the hit based on unit size is perfect and not present on nearly enough weapons.
A lot of units can counter that too by keeping the units small and just take huge numbers of those units. The more detachments the merrier.
Funnily enough, converting blasts to D6 shots helped hordes in another critical way too. You can have your models right next to each other, in fact you can even make movement trays for them if you want to, because there's no danger in stacking up and getting 20 hits from a single ordnance template. It's a lot easier to move them when you don't need to spread out.
Some people will definately make shooty armies that have 200 wounds of bubble wrap in front, or assault armies that roll over the table in an endless horde. It'll be really weird.
I do think Brimstone Horrors are pretty insane. A unit of 10 costs just 20 points, and they got 10 wounds with 4+ invulnerable saves, and on a 5+ to manifest they can do D3 mortal wounds on you. For comparison, a Rubric Marine with Inferno Boltgun costs 20 points. Should you take one wound, or ten for the same price? The ranged offensive kill potential is probably about the same overall ^_^ In fight phase the Horrors have 20 attacks that hit on 5+ and wound on 6+ against anything. They do 1.11 wounds against anything (for 20 points), which is a lot more than what the Rubric Marine can do.
Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.
The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.
str00dles1 wrote: rvd1ofakind you are my favorite. thanks for making that word doc. Will use it to play fri!
Yay :> GL I'm making the base rules now, excluding all the fluff and the obvious stuff. Who doesn't know what a roll-off or a re-roll is, srsly -.- And do they have to explain that roll-offs are the only thing where you can reroll a dice more than once if you 2 get a tie. Like wut xD
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.
The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.
I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.
Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^
But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!
Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.
The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.
I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.
Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^
But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!
Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.
A "lot" though? What else is there apart from the Big Ass Lazor and Skitarii converts
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.
The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.
I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.
Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^
But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!
Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.
A "lot" though? What else is there apart from the Big Ass Lazor and Skitarii converts
Everything with <Imperial> keyword. Might not be AdMech, but if it gets the job done...
You guys have weird metas at your FLGs, people rarely come in with 200+ models at mine :/ Except in AoS maybe, and even then nobody plays against them. You can can expect 60-80 Necrons Warriors blobs now though, but they will not charge you I think. Don't forget you have to find a spot in the Detachment for each of them, if they're units of 10 that's 20 Troops choice you'll have to fit with enough HQs to fill the mandatory choices. Remember morale, I don't know how it affects Daemons and Genestealer Cults but they'll lose a good chunk of their guys with each salvo because of the Battleshock tests.
Of course I'm not omniscient but that's how I see it. Anyway I don't know a lot of guys who will find it fun to buy, assemble, paint, bring to the table and then manoeuver 200 models. I want to have fun too when I'm playing, if I see someone running such boring lists I'll try to battle him once maybe and that's it, I love variety on the battlefield.
The rulebook advises people who organise tournaments to include a limit to the number of Detachments allowed per points level, I can see it really be used in the tournament scene to limit such horrors.
I still believe you'll have to get a balanced army with anti-infantry power, and a good chunk of anti-tank/MC weapons too.
I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away
Excluding Tyranids, who are essentially immune via Synapse.
There is at least one horde army at my FLGS. There's a guy that runs an ork horde with about 170 models. I've seen him a few times, so he's not a one off player. Most of the other regulars run smaller lists but the meta is a mix, so I'd need to have a list that can handle a wide range.
There's a Tua gunline, mixed Eldar ie some jet bikes and exarch types but no WK, GK character blob psychers of doom with 2 of the GK walkers, a Chaos guy that seems to play balanced lists, and a BA player that plays fairly balanced lists as well.
A lot will change with 8th, but I haven't played more than 5 games since 4th, so my thoughts are limited right now. I have no practical experience...
I'm building Ad Mech from scratch and my overall thoughts right now are infantry spam (I used to run foot guard). I have 60 Skitarii that I plan to build out as 20 rangers and 40 vanguard. I'll have 6 of each SW mixed in, rangers get all 6 TA. I don't know how many troops I'll use when I start list building yet though, nor how I run them ie groups of 10 or 5, or a mix.
Heavy support I have covered, right now, with up to 6 dunecrawlers and 2 kastellans. I picked up a couple of boxes of electro priests for CC, hope they don't completely suck, lol. Lastly I have 3 walkers, I thought I'd build dragoons but I'm not sure what I'll do with them yet.
I'll add more stuff when I have an idea of what I may need or models that I like after I get a few games in and all the current stuff built and painted.
I did hear a rumor from a local GW store manager that Ad Mech will be getting transports. My guess is there will be some new stuff when the Ad Mech codex drops...
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away
Excluding Tyranids, who are essentially immune via Synapse.
And excluding Horrors, who come in units of 10, and simply don't care if one or two runs away since they cost 2 points a pop
The biggest reason why I never see horde armies in my local meta is because nobody want to waste 30 minutes or more just moving their army.
But for 8th if you do find yourself against horde armies, then I still think that Kastelans and Vanguards are your best shot. Kastelans can pump out a ton of shots and Vanguards are still rocking that assault 3 weapon.
Sure they lost their addition wound on a 6 for a 2 damage possibility, but they still got a decent amount of firepower. Infiltrators also have a lot of shots, their pistols crank out 5 shots of S3, that is enough against most horde armies to kill some models.
I think the best bet we got as pure admech versus horde, is to rely on vanguards, kastelans and taser weapons. Then you have enough shots to diminish an horde army at a decent rate. Stuff like the Dunecrawler are in these situation better used to pick out the big non-character guys.
Also the Arquebus is a very solid weapon to get ridd of those 4 to 6 wound characters that buff nearby unit. Put two or four of those in your army and you will take out a character per turn.
str00dles1 wrote:One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.
Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.
Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.
In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.
I'm sorry I don't think I understood you, you think the model's price shown in the Index is including the gear described in it's datasheet ? Because I think you're wrong then, or else why would they show the points value of their stock weapons ? That would mean one Kastelan Robot, with its fists and Incendine Combustor would only cost 65 points instead of 65 + 35 + 21 = 121 ? No don't think so, they specifically included the prices of the gear separately to balance them if needed over time.
If that's not what you meant sorry, but I think I understood you well.
Arlen wrote:The biggest reason why I never see horde armies in my local meta is because nobody want to waste 30 minutes or more just moving their army.
But for 8th if you do find yourself against horde armies, then I still think that Kastelans and Vanguards are your best shot. Kastelans can pump out a ton of shots and Vanguards are still rocking that assault 3 weapon.
Sure they lost their addition wound on a 6 for a 2 damage possibility, but they still got a decent amount of firepower. Infiltrators also have a lot of shots, their pistols crank out 5 shots of S3, that is enough against most horde armies to kill some models.
I think the best bet we got as pure admech versus horde, is to rely on vanguards, kastelans and taser weapons. Then you have enough shots to diminish an horde army at a decent rate. Stuff like the Dunecrawler are in these situation better used to pick out the big non-character guys.
Also the Arquebus is a very solid weapon to get ridd of those 4 to 6 wound characters that buff nearby unit. Put two or four of those in your army and you will take out a character per turn.
Yes, the fact that the Infiltrators can shoot 5 times while in melee at S3 is significant, as you can split each shot in the same unit you're fighting, with a full luck you can bring down 3-4 regular GEQ in one shot of the Blaster, looks powerful.
Going to play my actual 5 man 2 Arquebii squad split in two, with two 5 man squads with 1 Arquebus each, so I can cover each side of the terrain. On a 6+ to Wound you can pull off 3 Damage + 1 Mortal Wound in one shot, looks nice enough to me, even against vehicles.
My FLGS has already planned a gaming session against the staff a few days after launch, at 1000 pts, to try it out. Here's what I'll bring, using WYSIWYG models I already own.
Right. Canticles. It is a bit annoying that you got to have a pure Ad Mech detachment to use them, no other faction (I think) has similar limitations.
Anyhow, as the fledgling Ad Mech army I started to to build during the seventh edition was a Skitarii force, I don't have a Dominus. Guess i need to get one... What are people's opinions on Dominus' weapon options? Macrostubber seems way better than the serpenta to me, but I'm not sure about the volkite and the eradication ray.
Right. Canticles. It is a bit annoying that you got to have a pure Ad Mech detachment to use them, no other faction (I think) has similar limitations.
Anyhow, as the fledgling Ad Mech army I started to to build during the seventh edition was a Skitarii force, I don't have a Dominus. Guess i need to get one... What are people's opinions on Dominus' weapon options? Macrostubber seems way better than the serpenta to me, but I'm not sure about the volkite and the eradication ray.
For the dominus I'm liking the volkite. It's a little cheaper and it's more consistent. The lack of AP sucks, but being able to reliably get 3 shots is better than 1-3 (or 1-6 if within 8"). I don't want to get the dominus too close to melee if I can help it, so the 8" part of the eradication ray concerns me a little.
As far as dealing with hordes goes, Servitors might be able to provide some efficient anti-infantry. Servitors only cost 2 points per model, as long as they're near a techpriest (all of the AdMech HQs are techpriests, so that's easy) they basically have a Guardsman statline with a 4+ save, not a bad deal for 2 points.
Then, for every 4 Servitors you take, 2 of them can take a Heavy Bolter. Think of it as a 4-point heavy weapons team with a 10 point HB, so 14 points for each HB team. Slightly more expensive than an IGHB team, but only because the IGHB is 8 points, and you can use the servo-arm Servitor as an ablative wound.
A Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array might be an all-around good deal too. Sure, it's intended to be an anti-air weapon, but 10 shots at BS3 with three different but decent stat lines is pretty okay against ground targets too. Not bad for 130 points, especially since taking them in pairs would let them re-roll their invuln save.
Dealing with hordes is definitely something AdMech will have to work hard on though. The vast majority of their armory is pretty much anti-tank. I do note though that the Canticles restriction only applies to detachments, so you can bring allies and still use Canticles as long as they're in separate detachments. Imperial Guard are probably a good choice for this: they can fill up secondary detachments cheaply, and can bring some much-needed dakka to the table.
For dealing with hordes Kastelan Robots with Incendine Combustors and twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters look nice, and a Cognis Flamer on your Kataphron Destroyers seems to be the best choice now. Flamers have an even better overwatch now, that can help. Vanguards still shoot a lot, and as said previously Dunecrawlers have a few good weapons for hordes, take a look at the Icarus Array who in my personal opinion is utterly devastating (goodbye flying units), or the twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster who's looking really good too.
Don't know about you but with the buff of the Techpriest Dominus that allows rerolls I think I'll surround him with a 5 man squad of 2 Plasma Calivers shooting at Overcharge all day. With the decrease in cost of the Arc weaponry I'll have a small squad with 2 Arc Rifles and Arc Pistol + Arc Maul combo too.
Watch out, the Techpriest Enginseer is not an HQ, it's an Elite choice. We're stuck with needing Belisarius Cawl or multiple Techpriests Dominus if we want to make more than a Patrol Detachment and keep our Cantics. I don't want to run 2-3 absolutely identical models in my army :/
Yeah, it is unfortunate that the only HQ options are Cawl or Dominus, both of which ain't cheap. The point with the servitors comment though was that Cawl and Dominus both count as Techpriests, so at least having someone around to keep servitors on target will never be a problem, because Dominus is a mandatory pick anyway.
Or there's the simpler option where you pick whatever Imperium HQ you want, effectively trading Canticles for Stratagems... It's an option, but there's some good stuff in the Canticles. Litany of the Electromancer looks really nice. I don't know if the trade-off is worth it, we have to consider that there are more stratagems in some missions, so having more Command Points might be worth it.
That would greatly simplify my list building too :')
ross-128 wrote: As far as dealing with hordes goes, Servitors might be able to provide some efficient anti-infantry. Servitors only cost 2 points per model, as long as they're near a techpriest (all of the AdMech HQs are techpriests, so that's easy) they basically have a Guardsman statline with a 4+ save, not a bad deal for 2 points.
Then, for every 4 Servitors you take, 2 of them can take a Heavy Bolter. Think of it as a 4-point heavy weapons team with a 10 point HB, so 14 points for each HB team. Slightly more expensive than an IGHB team, but only because the IGHB is 8 points, and you can use the servo-arm Servitor as an ablative wound.
A Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array might be an all-around good deal too. Sure, it's intended to be an anti-air weapon, but 10 shots at BS3 with three different but decent stat lines is pretty okay against ground targets too. Not bad for 130 points, especially since taking them in pairs would let them re-roll their invuln save.
Dealing with hordes is definitely something AdMech will have to work hard on though. The vast majority of their armory is pretty much anti-tank. I do note though that the Canticles restriction only applies to detachments, so you can bring allies and still use Canticles as long as they're in separate detachments. Imperial Guard are probably a good choice for this: they can fill up secondary detachments cheaply, and can bring some much-needed dakka to the table.
Sadly servitors are f'd with the 12 pts servo-arm. So 28 points of crap + 4 + 2 weapons of choice
Either way, I think we shouls at least somewhat focus on the fact that Tech-Priests are all healers now and bring almost all multi-wound models.
Assuming characters do end up being important, and character assassination is a good tactic against them, what do you think of the radium jezzail vs the transuranic arquebus?
TA has longer range, but can't move and shoot, whereas RJ can move and shoot.. just not super well. Max damage output is the same but with 2 shots the average should be smoother. However, it will be a bit easier to wound with TA due to increased S and AP.
Durability I would think the dragoons win, point for point. In a 5 man squad of rangers there would be 3 ablative wounds and 2 TA carriers for 100 points, versus 108 points for 2 dragoons each with an RJ, which each have 6 W at T6, AND -1 to hit them.
I've been seeing a lot of people float around lascannon balistari and was wondering why not the RJ dragoon?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sadly servitors are f'd with the 12 pts servo-arm. So 28 points of crap + 4 + 2 weapons of choice
Either way, I think we shouls at least somewhat focus on the fact that Tech-Priests are all healers now and bring almost all multi-wound models.
Yeah I can see small groups spread on the table, one Techpriest Dominus surrounded by some Skitarii for the rerolls, and a pair of Kastelan Robots could benefit from it too. Keep one Onager or two close to repair them, and leave the Robots for the Datasmith. The Techpriest Enginseer could support another group like that, albeit he doesn't buff anyone he can still repair for free.
Gak Attack wrote: Assuming characters do end up being important, and character assassination is a good tactic against them, what do you think of the radium jezzail vs the transuranic arquebus?
TA has longer range, but can't move and shoot, whereas RJ can move and shoot.. just not super well. Max damage output is the same but with 2 shots the average should be smoother. However, it will be a bit easier to wound with TA due to increased S and AP.
Durability I would think the dragoons win, point for point. In a 5 man squad of rangers there would be 3 ablative wounds and 2 TA carriers for 100 points, versus 108 points for 2 dragoons each with an RJ, which each have 6 W at T6, AND -1 to hit them.
I've been seeing a lot of people float around lascannon balistari and was wondering why not the RJ dragoon?
Thoughts?
I believe you should use both in reasonable proportions. The Arquebus is still expensive and requires careful placement now as it's unusable when you're moving, you should deploy the closest possible to a nice bird nest. If you're using a single squad of two Arquebii you could use the Dragoon to cover the parts where you can't go. I'd take them in pairs at least so it doesn't immediately die, and to pump out more shots obviously. They still benefit from cover while moving so, 3+ save !
Four Kastellan robbits, all phosphor, in the immobile shooty config, standing next to Cawl yeilds 72 S6 shots, average 54 hits on four different targets. Check my math, but I think that removes all 24 Wounds from a Knight or Wraithknight.
axisofentropy wrote: Four Kastellan robbits, all phosphor, in the immobile shooty config, standing next to Cawl yeilds 72 S6 shots, average 54 hits on four different targets. Check my math, but I think that removes all 24 Wounds from a Knight or Wraithknight.
We aren't exactly sweating Knights, thanks to the Balistarii and Crawlers. Still good to know that maths out somewhat nicely. I am going to have to grab more Robots (and alt heads) soon. They look like our new faction workhorse.
What I like is that 54 hits equates to about 23 dead Genestealers, which is a pressing concern. They will be in our face on T1 and assaulting us T2 (though some rare few will even assault T1). We need to be able to fend off those hordes.
How are we going to deal with the Guard Horde? That has me sweating a bit. Hundreds of Guardsmen with dozens of HWTs and special weapons. Seems like the Robots are a good answer again, but we lose in a shooting war with Guard.
I think everyone loses in shooting against a dedicated Guard army The answer ? Assault. Get Sicarian Infiltrators and/or Fulgurite Electro-Priests and they'll fall like FLIES. Seriously on light armoured units like this you'll kill them so much they won't be alive. With the -1 malus in Ld given by the Infiltrators you'll just have to take care of the Commissars beforehand (Snipers exist for a reason) and you'll have even more dead due to Morale. Really we got buffed in CC too you have to realise it, Infiltrators are damn cheaper (130 pts instead of 185 with Tasers), can just pop up at 9", shoot 25 times at S3, and then they might get a charge if lucky (use CP if needed) and there, a dead unit. You might even wipe out a unit just with the Flechette Blasters and Battleshock. Kastelans can be used too, they can absorb some puny Lasguns and even if some wound you can reflect them in Mortal Wounds. Fulgurite Electro-Priests deal Mortal Wounds all day and when they'll wipe that 10 man unit (no more blobs btw) they'll have a 3++.
I'll have a game tomorrow at my Warhammer store, 1350 points of pure Mechanicus VS Chaos. I'll tell you how it goes I already have another one at 1250 pts against Necrons on Wednesday too.
I wouldn't go to big units of 20 because of the way Battleshock works, you'll be better with units of 10-15 to keep a strength in numbers while not losing 10 models to a few shots + 6 to Battleshock.
EDIT: Wondering about the Corpuscarii now, they could be nice anti-hordes too, they pack 3 Tesla shots at 3+ with S5, and their 12" range can be mitigated by Advancing and shooting, as their weapons are Assault they'll still hit on 4+. I think the Fulgurites are more useful still, we already have plenty of nice shooting with better range.
bortass wrote: What size unit would people run Fulgrites in? I have a couple of boxes of them, so plan to field a unit of 10 once I get stuff built and painted.
Unit size? Zero. Throw those ugly models in the trash!
You forgot to figure in the fact the Princeps still has a Chord Claw when he has Transonic Blades. The optimal loadout is the Princeps with Transonic Blades and a Chordclaw, and everyone else having a Transonic Razor and a Chordclaw.
Also, there is no +1 attack on the charge anymore.
Verviedi wrote: Your avatar is starting to feel more and more like a personal statement
Done. Finally. Order is
1. Razor/Claw with Princeps Blades.
2. Razor/Claw.
3. Blades.
And for some reason Blades cost more.
sorry, I wasn't clear, the only way for the Princeps to have blades is if he has Blades AND a Chordclaw. He can't take just blades. So in your original assessment, it would go as follows:
1. R/C, Blade Claw Princeps
2. Blades and Blade Claw Princeps
3. R/C on all
Ah, yes, I did understand that, I just forgot to add "+Princeps blade claw". The lower number of attacks seriously hurt the damage output of Blades + Blade Claw, making it the least effective loadout. Really a shame, because Blades look so cool.
Verviedi wrote: Ah, yes, I did understand that, I just forgot to add "+Princeps blade claw". The lower number of attacks seriously hurt the damage output of Blades + Blade Claw, making it the least effective loadout. Really a shame, because Blades look so cool.
Regardless, the difference between the types is not terribly significant, but the R/C+Bladeclaw Princeps is the way to go.
I didn't notice that you had been editing the math post above.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: This is a surprise! I thought for sure blades would be better for the +1S. Huh.
Nope, the Chordclaw really mucks the math up. If it was two Razors vs. two Blades, the blades would win, but the Chordclaw changes things. However, the Blades are obviously better when taken with a claw, so a Princeps should always have Blades.
Of course, all of that math is only versus T4 right? '
How do we feel about the loadout in general? Or would T4 be the target... targets for the ruststalkers, and leave higher toughness enemies to the dunecrawlers and balistari?
Nope, I touched on it briefly. Blades are just in a terrible position in general.
Gak Attack wrote: Of course, all of that math is only versus T4 right? '
How do we feel about the loadout in general? Or would T4 be the target... targets for the ruststalkers, and leave higher toughness enemies to the dunecrawlers and balistari?
I'd say Ruststalkers go for elite units, and Infiltrators go for chaff, because Infiltrators put out more hits, but Ruststalkers put out better hits.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Are you guys missing the fact that for some stupid reason blades are more expensive?
Nope, which is why only the Princeps gets Blades.
Might as well just get another model instead :/ Blades just seem bad for the cost. Also, what about the assassins, guys :x
3x Cullexus - you just place him 9'' from the Psyker and let rip - dead Psyker turn 1 or use him as a battery to kill a more imporant unit
3x Everson - you place them 9'' from the strongest shooting (and usually weakest Melee) unit and charge with 3D6. Your opponent can't use 3 of his most powerful shooting units turn 1 and has to deal with the assassins.
Here are the rules to them, knights and admech btw
Elites:
- 5 Sicarian Infiltrators: 90 pts
----- Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters: 40 pts
- 1 Cybernetica Datasmith: 22 pts
----- Power Fist and Gamma Pistol: 30 pts
Heavy Support:
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler: 90 pts
----- Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber: 151 pts
- 2 Kastelans Robots: 130 pts
----- 2 Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2 Incendine Combustors: 102 pts
TOTAL: 1347 pts
3 Command points
Warlord trait "Inspiring Leader": +1 Ld to all friendly units within 6" from the Warlord
I really dislike the limitations we have on our HQ choices, for now I'm stuck with 3 Troops choices while I want to play MSU, and I'll have to spam Techpriests Dominus if I want to go bigger AND keep my Canticles.
Also I don't like the idea that you can use as many Assassins as you want, I don't know feels like cheating to me Not really lore-friendly too. The cool thing about Sisters of Silence and Culexus is that is protects your units from Psykers spamming Smite as they have to target the closest, and they are immune to it.
Get Cawl? He's awesome. I got multiple Dominus'es thanks to the Start Collecting boxes
BTW, in order to complete the 6 Kastelan attack on turn two you will need on average 6 minutes:
Take 40 dice, roll, re-roll, count, take 40 dice, roll, re-roll, count, count and take 28 dice, roll, re-roll, count. Oh boy. My to hit is done.
82 to wound. Take 40 dice, roll, count, take 40 dice, roll, take 2 dice, roll
50 to save. take 40 dice, roll, count, count 10 dice, roll, count.
Cawl is a named character (don't really like those), gives a bonus that is basically wasted because my Mechanicus is not from Mars (I COULD say that they are... but they are blue), and I don't want to paint this model haha And as you will see in my battle report having regenerative Wounds is only cool if you get to roll those. Too much points for a single dude in my opinion. We'll definitely need some form of chaff to give more targets to the enemy.
What kind of attacks are you counting for the Kastellans ? Shots ? Reroll because of the Canticles/Techpriest Dominus ?
Battle report everyone, I fought today in V8 with the list I put in another post. My opponent chose to play Ynnari instead of his Daemons, which was fine by me, I never tailor my lists anyway. So, 1350 pts. His list was made of the following (quantities may vary I don't exactly remember):
- Asurmen and Jain Zarr
- 1 Harlequin Troupe Master (I think) and 4 Troupes with Melta pistols on Starweaver
- 5 Harlequin Troupes with Melta Pistols on Starweaver
- 5 Harlequin Troupes on foot with a Troupe Master
- 12 or 15 Skyweavers (motojets) by packs of 3
- 20 Avengers by packs of 5
- 5 Banshees
Maybe some other stuff, don't remember. All played with Ynnari rules with the Soulburst stuff. 4 Objectives to be held at the end of game. I had mistaken the models I took and deployed two units of 5 rangers instead of one of 8, so was 27 points above the limit, I saw that only after the game but it didn't mattered very much.
I deployed my Techpriest in a crater, surrounded by the 10 Vanguards and with the Onager behind him, so that they could benefit of rerolls of 1 and so that I had +2 Ld in total. I chosed the Warlord Trait that let's you ignore a unsaved Wound on a 6. My Destroyers were deployed each on a different level in a ruin so that they were in cover and had nice LoS, with the Robots on their left flank, accompanied by the Datasmith. I completely forgot about the Infiltration of the Infiltrators, and just hid them behind a wall of a ruin, where were deployed my Rangers with the snipers on the "roof". The Dragoon was on their right flank.
I got first turn, so I chose to roll my Canticles and got the one that gives you cover all turn. I used the Protector protocol but now that I'm thinking about it, I applied it right away each time all game :x I'll be more careful in the future. Anyway, I moved the Dragoon to its death by inadvertance by forgetting that I don't add 3" to my charge, meaning I had to roll a 12" charge on my target. I kept my Priest and his Vanguards there, and only moved the Onager to have a LoS on the Avengers. Shooting phase, one my Robots, thanks to his illegal protocol destroyed one of the Starweavers, killing one of the Troupes in the explosion. The other Robot didn't have more LoS sadly. To make short, I killed a few avengers and some bikes, and have to highlight my Arquebii that didn't hit ONCE through all the game. Then come the charges where I fail the one of the Dragoons obviously, but he's unscarred for now. Then on his first turn he killed my poor Dragoon with his Melta spam from the Starweaver and the guys inside, and he doesn't even explode. Thanks to Soulburst he does more stuff and in the end he kills some more of my guys but nothing dramatic until then.
After all that, I roll cover Canticle again, put on the Conqueror protocols because everything is coming way too fast in my face, I kill some bikes and a nice chunk of Avengers, and try out my Sicarians in melee against some bikes. I rolled awfully but they're still alive mostly and still killed some thanks to the Flechette Blasters. At this point there's Harlequins close to my Priest, so after a bit of shooting I decide to run my 4 Vanguards survivors on the last Troupe close to me and fail all my Hit rolls. On turn 3 there's his second Starweaver full of Melta that got really close to my Onager and promptly disintegrates him in two phases thanks to Soulburst. It becomes a real downhill battle for me when everything is getting closer to me, there's charges by the Banshees on my Techpriest and thanks to Jain Zarr, I can't even Overwatch. He loses his 6 Wounds in the fight (good thing he regenerates 1d3 Wounds each turn haha, couldn't even use it once) and so only survives one sniper, my Robots, Datasmith and my Destroyers at this point. The Kastelan club and the Datasmith successfully crush their targets in melee (a lone Avenger and 2 Banshees) but the Soulburst thing only accelerates my death because it makes him shoot his Melta-Wagon on my Robots that don't survive much longer after that. The Destroyers get shot to death shortly after and there I lost obviously.
So what I learned of this encounter was that I badly deployed, by wanting to benefit from the rerolls and the +2 Ld I just had a juicier target and a better Soulburst generator. He overwhelmed me with mobility, his superior numbers the number of shots and of course his CC units. Take note that I never lost anyone to Battleshock, neither did he. To me Ynnari looks broken as hell (never fought them before note) and what surprised me the most was the Melta wagon, but it seems it's a legal move. They're only 6" in range but on his Open-topped transport that goes 16" it's not a problem and he can shot them multiple times thanks to Soulburst.
As for my own army, I still believe Kastelan with guns are to keep far away on a nice position with Protector. They're good in CC, but if you really want to charge get some with Kastelan Fists to go and punch vehicles to death with their flat 3 Damage and Conqueror protocols. As for the Cognis Flamers they were surprinsingly deadly, even against a full 4++ army. The Grav-cannons were nice but almost nothing was a good target for them, and I had a -1 to Hit against the Transports, and even then they have a 4+ save so no D3 Damage. Can't really judge my Vanguards because they died so fast, neither can I judge the Snipers who would've been really nice if they could OPEN THEIR EYES when they shoot. The Rangers were average I guess but died too fast too. The Dunecrawler shot really well and tanked nicely (as did the Destroyers in cover), but I could've played him better I guess. Not sure about the Infiltrators, for their new cost they seem worth hit against light armoured targets. The Dragoon I failed miserably so no opinion either.
All in all I still believe my opponent's army was just broken but I don't want to really judge of it before a few games against this army, I didn't play very well and had bad rolls on critical moments. He could field 6 CP while I was stuck with the basic 3, that served to reroll.
I'm thinking that doing the detachment giving 9 CP isn't too hard to do. I ran 4 squads of Vanguard and 2 squads of Rangers (though now I have to bust out the Arq dudes instead of the Arc dudes, because themes), however I'm unsure how to fill out the rest of the list without going too high in points. Is 1850 still going to be the standard? Hell if I know.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm thinking that doing the detachment giving 9 CP isn't too hard to do. I ran 4 squads of Vanguard and 2 squads of Rangers (though now I have to bust out the Arq dudes instead of the Arc dudes, because themes), however I'm unsure how to fill out the rest of the list without going too high in points. Is 1850 still going to be the standard? Hell if I know.
2000 pts at least to make a non-awful list
Cawl
Dominus x2
2x 5 Rangers
4x 5 vanguard
datasmith
infiltrators
ruststalkers
balistarii
dragoon
dragoon
onager icarus
onager phosphor
4 phosphor robots
Hmm. Really shame that the transonic blades are not any good, I think they're the better looking option. Good job with that playtesting GW! Oh well.
It's also interesting that you can now have a mix of weapons in Ruststalker and Infiltator squads. There's little practical benefit, but it's a nice option to have if you want to create more varied looking units.
Crimson wrote: Hmm. Really shame that the transonic blades are not any good, I think they're the better looking option. Good job with that playtesting GW! Oh well.
It's also interesting that you can now have a mix of weapons in Ruststalker and Infiltator squads. There's little practical benefit, but it's a nice option to have if you want to create more varied looking units.
You can also fill in points that way which is what I did
Hey another thing I noticed while playing earlier, the Dragoon is basically immune to Overwatch fire. It states "the shooting enemy must substract 1 from their To Hit rolls", effectively meaning that even if he rolls a 6, it's going to be a 5 and so won't work... I don't know if this was intended but I'll just leave this here.
Doesn't work against flamers obviously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, concerning the game against Ynnari, it states on "Transports" rules that unless specifically stated, the embarked models cannot be affected in any way, even buff within a certain range, so no Soulbursting Meltaguys bullgak. Good to know.
Just had two games of 8th yesterday and thought Id give a couple thoughts on some Admech units that were in my list
I played against Chaos demons:
Changling
Magnus
Belakor
2 units of Spawn
3 units of Brimstones
2 Chariots
Heldrake
Maulerfiend
250pts worth of summoning
Admech units I played:
Sicarian Infiltrators mix of Power swords/stub carbines and taser goads/flechette: Rating C
I took 5. These guys were ok. They have a decent amount of attacks and a decent strength. The problem I have with them is they only have 2 wounds with a 6++ save. Any decent shooting weapon will kill a bunch. Higher toughness units means these guys were wounding less often.
Fulgurite Priests: Rating B
I took 9. Not a bad unit. 27 exploding 6's at str. 5 is decent. They also get a similar buff in CC. great for hordes or smaller units. Decent against higher toughness units due to the sheer amount of attacks. the 5++ and 5++ ignore wounds is AMAZING!
Corpuscarii Priests: Rating A
I took 9. Holy cow these guys are AWSOME! +2 strength with a -2 AP. On top of that they do D3 wounds per wound inflicted and 6's are D3 mortal wounds. the 5++ and 5++ ignore wounds is AMAZING!
Kastelan Robots w/3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters: Rating A+
I took 2 units of 2. TAKE THESE ASAP. With the shooting protocol each unit puts out 36 -2 AP ignoring cover wounds. decent in CC in a pinch. Loved this unit
Datasmiths: B-
I took 2. Not bad....Power fists and gamma pistols are ok. I think I got 1 in CC in both games. They did ok. They heal your robots and allow you to change your protocols on a 2+
I think the only things I would change is taking 1 unit of infiltrators and take an additional Fulgurites unit for only a 6pt difference
Sicarian Infiltrators mix of Power swords/stub carbines and taser goads/flechette: Rating C
I took 5. These guys were ok. They have a decent amount of attacks and a decent strength. The problem I have with them is they only have 2 wounds with a 6++ save. Any decent shooting weapon will kill a bunch. Higher toughness units means these guys were wounding less often.
Fulgurite Priests: Rating B
I took 9. Not a bad unit. 27 exploding 6's at str. 5 is decent. They also get a similar buff in CC. great for hordes or smaller units. Decent against higher toughness units due to the sheer amount of attacks. the 5++ and 5++ ignore wounds is AMAZING!
Corpuscarii Priests: Rating A
I took 9. Holy cow these guys are AWSOME! +2 strength with a -2 AP. On top of that they do D3 wounds per wound inflicted and 6's are D3 mortal wounds. the 5++ and 5++ ignore wounds is AMAZING!
Kastelan Robots w/3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters: Rating A+
I took 2 units of 2. TAKE THESE ASAP. With the shooting protocol each unit puts out 36 -2 AP ignoring cover wounds. decent in CC in a pinch. Loved this unit
Datasmiths: B-
I took 2. Not bad....Power fists and gamma pistols are ok. I think I got 1 in CC in both games. They did ok. They heal your robots and allow you to change your protocols on a 2+
I think the only things I would change is taking 1 unit of infiltrators and take an additional Fulgurites unit for only a 6pt difference
I think you mixed up the two Electro-priests' name, it's the Fulgurite who fights in CC with +2S. Glad to see they're doing alright as I thought.
Changed to 2k vs Tyranids pts after watching the frontline stream where they said that will be the norm for competitive.
+9CP
Cawl
Dominus
Dominus
5 rangers
5 rangers
5 vanguard 1 plasma (arc and sniper seem useless vs tyranids)
5 vanguard 1 plasma
5 vanguard 1 plasma
5 vanguard
Balistarii
Dragoon
Dragoon
5 infiltrators 5 flechete&tazer (don't have electro-priests yet)
5 ruststalkers
Datasmith
2 kastelan robots full phosphor (only have 2 of these)
onager neutron
onager icarus
onager icarus cognis (left over pts for cognis)
What do you guys think. I'd use electro instead of sicarians and more kastelans if I could :p
Looks solid. While I don't think Infiltrators are as good as they used to be, infiltrate when AdMech lacks much in the way of mobility is probably not something to overlook. I think our solution to a lot of problems is going to be 'more robots' for the forseeable future, however.
Or maybe I should just go with the Knight?
+3CP
Cawl
Dominus
5 rangers
5 vanguard 1 plasma
5 vanguard 1 plasma
5 infiltratos 5 taser
Datasmith
2 kastelan robots full phosphor (only have 2 of these)
Balistarii
Dragoon
Dragoon
onager neutron
onager icarus cognis (left over pts for cognis)
Crusader: thermal, melta, ironstorm missles
edit: whoops, can't take 4 Heavy support :p altered
So far on my order list I have 3 units of electro-priests, 2 units of kastelans. What else should I get ? :p A 4th start collecting?
Well to me they look good enough, they really are specialised against Vehicles and MCs though, the Heavy Arc Rifle being able to roll 2D6 (in two shots) at 36" looks nice enough. The Torsion cannon is somewhat more specialised, because you only get one shot at 4+, but this shot is S8 and AP-4, for 1D6 Damage too. With a Strength of 8 you'll end up wounding on 3+ most medium vehicles, while the S6 from the Heavy Arc Rifle will wound on 5+ most of the time, something to consider. The Torsion Cannon is slightly more expensive at 22 pts against the 18 pts of the Heavy Arc Rifle.
I would not even consider their CC weapons because they'll never reach melee and if they do, they won't do much anyway.
Took:
Cawl,
2 Robots all guns
Datasmith
5 Staff Priests
3 Destroyers with Plasma
10 Rangers with sniper
Went against Orks.
Cawl is pretty much used just for the reroll to the whole army. Warboss charged him and splattered him all over but got a solid 3 turns of reroll shooting.
Rangers were ok. Didn't get much use of the sniper weapon.
Priests died via shooting before they got to do anything
Destroyers rained down many plasma shots.
datasmith helped change the robots to double shooting and almost killed the warboss on a charge but wiffed.
Robots were amazing. Like said before 36 rerollable STR 6 shots is amazing. Plan to grab atleast 4 more.
Hoping to try the tank Friday in a 2k point game. Over all good fun
rvd1ofakind wrote: Eradication is still terrible, right? Don't have time to mathhammer. Busy writting chaos rules summaries and crying how bad they are
range determines Hits/Damage Long 1d6/1d3 AP-2 or Short 1d3/1d6 AP-4, averaging 7 S8 checks either way...
Heavy Bolter servitors seem like a nice cheap source of slightly better than infantry firepower at long range. Just stick them near a tech preist who was going to stand there and buff things anyhow.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Eradication is still terrible, right? Don't have time to mathhammer. Busy writting chaos rules summaries and crying how bad they are
Well, people like the Battlecannon on the Russ and the ranged version of the ray has its profile copied, on a 3+ to hit platform with easy access to reroll 1's.
Close range its a d3 meltagun.
Only 120 for it. I think I might throw one in at some point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anauteus wrote: What type of Knight do you think meshes well with Mechanicus now that Skitarii and the Cult are in one book?
I'm planning on a Paladin/Errant for easy modeling work. I feel like we need something to hit things with a big ole chainsword.
And just so I'm not missing anything, there is no way to repair a knight with existing rules, correct?
changemod wrote: Heavy Bolter servitors seem like a nice cheap source of slightly better than infantry firepower at long range. Just stick them near a tech preist who was going to stand there and buff things anyhow.
in the unit of 4 servitors, half can't replace their expensive servo-arm. This keeps the total unit cost too high.
The general order of units from awesome to meh is this. Thoughts?
Kastelans
Onagers
Cawl
Fulgurites
Balistarii
Corpuscarii
Dragoons
Infiltrators
Datasmith
Dominus
Ruststalkers
Enginseer
Vanguard
Rangers
Destroyers
Breachers
Servitors
Elites:
(4) Servitors
2x Heavy Bolters, 2x Servo-Arms
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
[1998]
Servitors may rank low, but they are not awful point filler. The funny thing is they are an exact point swap for a Datasmith, so if they don't work and I find 2 Datasmith inadequate, that is an easy switcheroo.
Not a major deviation from my most recent list. Really focused on firepower. Balistarii for anti-tank and anti-MC, Icarus Dunecrawlers do obviously knock out flyers, but to throw down a lot of generic firepower (hits on 4+ with a load of shots). Phosphor bots are obvious. Cawl for re-rolls. Dominus because second HQ, but helps spread some re-roll love if I don't want to cluster up.
Thoughts? Think this is a good direction? I know Hordes will swamp me, but I don't expect anyone to go full horde.
Servitors look to be the main bad unit because of the servo arm cost. It will be interesting to see how things shape up as more people play and we get additional feedback. I think most units are viable, sure some may be rated higher, but there are some that are the only option, Dragoons for a fast CC unit for example. Also roles are different, along with play style. I recall reading in the 7th edition thread that someone liked rust stalkers even though they were considered to be bad...
For those of us that are not Mars, or don't have Cawl, what is the load out for the Dominus? It seems the stock load out is what people are using from the lists that have been posted so far. I will probably magnetize them.
I'm still thinking about how to split up my infantry. I have 40 vanguard and 20 rangers. I'm thinking units of 10 for the vanguard and units of 5 for the rangers. The only real tax I see would be the omnispex, and I plan to build 6 of those. The two ranger onmispex would go to the squads that have the majority of the TA.
Servitors look to be the main bad unit because of the servo arm cost. It will be interesting to see how things shape up as more people play and we get additional feedback. I think most units are viable, sure some may be rated higher, but there are some that are the only option, Dragoons for a fast CC unit for example. Also roles are different, along with play style. I recall reading in the 7th edition thread that someone liked rust stalkers even though they were considered to be bad...
For those of us that are not Mars, or don't have Cawl, what is the load out for the Dominus? It seems the stock load out is what people are using from the lists that have been posted so far. I will probably magnetize them.
I'm still thinking about how to split up my infantry. I have 40 vanguard and 20 rangers. I'm thinking units of 10 for the vanguard and units of 5 for the rangers. The only real tax I see would be the omnispex, and I plan to build 6 of those. The two ranger onmispex would go to the squads that have the majority of the TA.
I'll be using two Dominus(es?i?) for the most part, I dont think Cawl is worth the extra 110~ for reroll all versus 1's in a BS3+ army. I think stock is the best way to go. The E-ray is too short ranged for my taste, and unless the Phosphor rule gets modified or clarified to work for the whole turn, I'll be staying away from that. If it does tho, I will probably slap one on in a heartbeat.
I like omnispex even on vanguard, as marines getting that 2+ in cover just disgusts me
I still dont have a real role for the Dragoon yet. I feel like we're sitting here at distraction carnifex territory with them. I appreciate every unit not needing to be good at everything, but which situation is it designed to excel at? I'm stumped.
Comes in the 1998 range with options. Thinking about dropping the CP's and a Dom to pick up two more IRonstriders so I can keep my 3/6/12 fluff going...
I only own one Dragoon right now, equipped with the Taser Lance. I'm thinking of switching for the Radium Jezzail because I'm simply used to its terrible performances in CC (best thing he did was to destroy a Rhino in 7th Ed Kill Team), but the -1 to hit on a highly mobile unit seems odd. As for its sniping capabilities, he'll need to move to make a nice shot so 4+ to hit, and no AP at all. At least it's two shots and you can dish a mortal wound, and you'll wound on 3+ most of the time. Still, not convinced. I think I'll test him once more in an upcoming game to decide his fate. I'm certain it's worth taking in numbers of 2-3 but the models are expensive in money for their point cost.
I have 3 Dragoons/Ironstrider models that are yet to be built. I will magnetize them and run with the taser lance. If they are not working for me after a few games, I think I can swap them over to ironstriders by adding the gun shield.
I'm coming at this from the ground up since I never played 7th. The dragoon seems decent with the lance. They are immune from overwatch, thanks to incense cloud, and the lance causes three hits on a to hit roll of 6. I haven't done any math hammering but a unit of 3 should get about 9 hits in, off the top of my head. 6 hits, 1.5 of which are a 6 so 4.5 base hits and 4.5 hits from 6s. It may not be awesome but it could put the hurt on smaller units which is what Dragoons seem to be built for. But then again, I'm clueless, lol.
bortass wrote: I have 3 Dragoons/Ironstrider models that are yet to be built. I will magnetize them and run with the taser lance. If they are not working for me after a few games, I think I can swap them over to ironstriders by adding the gun shield.
I'm coming at this from the ground up since I never played 7th. The dragoon seems decent with the lance. They are immune from overwatch, thanks to incense cloud, and the lance causes three hits on a to hit roll of 6. I haven't done any math hammering but a unit of 3 should get about 9 hits in, off the top of my head. 6 hits, 1.5 of which are a 6 so 4.5 base hits and 4.5 hits from 6s. It may not be awesome but it could put the hurt on smaller units which is what Dragoons seem to be built for. But then again, I'm clueless, lol.
Careful, I thought they were immune to Overwatch too but after reading a bit the rules, Overwatch states that you can only hit the charging unit on a 6, regardless of any modifiers. Sorry, I was sad too
Well in theory they're supposed to hurt by personnaly they barely wounded people on 7th, they just locked infantry in CC forever because they couldn't hurt me. I'll see if this new edition helps them, I had a game with one but didn't place him right and got one shot by a Fusion Pistol wagon.
After 2k pts vs tyranids
Knight Crusader :p
Cawl
Onagers
Were the standout units. Everyone is mars. Who cares what color you are. No one but you.
Kastelans died too fast.
Skitatii were OK
Infiltrators wrecked face
Datasmith is bad because 2+ saves are awful. Take 1 for kastelans
Balistarii is bad on autocannon
Dragoons are pretty good
Kastelans got focused fired sadly. Didn't really test them
Dominus is filler hq I won though. Main lessons learned - don't pile in into flyers since they just hit you and fly away. Be very aware of smite
Anyone try out Infiltrators yet? I am looking for a highly mobile unit that can pop up and grab objectives across the board and still move reasonably fast. The rest of my current force is very much slow.
rvd1ofakind wrote: After 2k pts vs tyranids
Knight Crusader :p
Cawl
Onagers
Were the standout units. Everyone is mars. Who cares what color you are. No one but you.
Kastelans died too fast.
Skitatii were OK
Infiltrators wrecked face
Datasmith is bad because 2+ saves are awful. Take 1 for kastelans
Balistarii is bad on autocannon
Dragoons are pretty good
Kastelans got focused fired sadly. Didn't really test them
Dominus is filler hq I won though. Main lessons learned - don't pile in into flyers since they just hit you and fly away. Be very aware of smite
People who care about their fluff cares about their color, so no Mars for me. I'm actually happy they've set up those keywords to somewhat forbid Space Marine players and such of using 6 different characters and switching chapter tactics as they saw fit every game. So I'll keep my Noctholm Forge-World. Plus it's dumb to see a named character die to an Ork Boy.
What do you mean 2+ saves are awful ? Because of new modifiers ? How did he die ?
Your opponent was wise to focus Kastelans, just wondering how he got to them that fast ? How do Tyranids have access to Smite ? They have Psykers ?
Yeah my Dominus was pretty useless too against those Harlequin-Ynnari. I was boasting of his new durability until he lost exactly 6 Wounds on a single round of combat (I hate Jain Zarr and her "no overwatch" aura to Banshees). I'll play my next game more carefully though.
3 flying psykers with D3 mortal wounds each.
1 kastelan died from: drop pod, carnifex, elite (support) unit in back, 3 biovores(they do mortal wounds...), The other died from smites since he can't move.
2+ before was almost immortal. Now it just becomes a 5+ or worse 99% of the time. Or just mortal wound the bitch
So yeah it was kinda scary seeing all that horde coming to me. But I just deployed in the corner while he deployed his stuff to cover everything and had to run to the corner.
Infiltrators were amazing. They're pretty much untouchable by and DESTROY hordes of melee dudes. Killed 30 hermagaunts in 1 turn, they didn't even care.
Knight Crusader just shot up a storm
150 of skitarii did what they had to - wasted time
Cawl's re-roll is amazing
Onagers are really good for their cost
Datasmith did feth all and died like a little bitch
BTW, Cawl died on turn 4. He was surrounded by like 2 hordes (or what's left of them), a drop pod and a hive tyrant. So I used the stratagem after the tyrant dropped me to 1 wound, used mechadendrites against one of the hordes and the axe against the drop pod. And the drop pod exploded with 3 mortal wounds to all his stuff. (Cawl died obviously)
It was glorious "If I'm going down... I'M TAKING YOU WITH ME"
edit: my two kastelans were full phosphor obviously
DjPyro3 wrote: Should the Onagers be loaded out with the array or Neutron laser? The array has so many shots I'm almost sure it's worth the -1 bs.
Also, why are Destroyers being ranked so low?
Both are great Destroyers are good in a vacuum
However Onagers and Kastelans cover the same role and do more damage, from better range, are more survivable and CHEAPER. Why would you EVER take them?
Before they had the niche of grav. Now grav is very situational
DjPyro3 wrote: Should the Onagers be loaded out with the array or Neutron laser? The array has so many shots I'm almost sure it's worth the -1 bs.
Also, why are Destroyers being ranked so low?
I prefer the laser (it has nothing to do with the fact I call my Onager a Donkeytank with a frickin' laser on its head). That damage profile can be devastating. The minus one to hit some flyers just isn't enough of a drawback to not take the laser to me. I might put the array on 1/3 Onager though. I haven't totally decided yet.
Musings about the general list building
In order to build a sucessful AdMech list you should have at least 50% in heavy artilery
Onagers are amazing but they take up 1 spot each and they're not that good vs hordes
Since the Knight is so good, you will usually only have 3 spots for heavy unless you want to pay the dominus tax.
Therefor you should always take 2 onagers and a unit of kastelans(add bots to fill points) if you have 3 spots.
Kastelans are better at: hordes, fighting, filling points. The last bit is VERY important
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also think that allying in 1 psyker/denier is really important
Also for everyone looking for what to buy:
3 start collecting (only 1 Dominus is useless out of ALL 3 packs. Really great value)
Cawl
Imperial Knight
2-3 packs of Kastelans
1-2 infiltrators
1-2 electropriests
2-3 ironstriders
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last post about this.
Here are the final(-ish) versions of the AdMech+Knights+Inquisition+Assassins+Librarians+Fortifications and Chaos Daemons+Knights+Heldrakes Indexes and list builders as well as a summary of the rulebook.
How to use the List Builders:
Copy rows into the new competitive list tab and insert them just bellow the first row for every UNIT you want to add.
Then change parameters in the cells with RED borders. The YELLOW cells will change by themselves. If you mess something up - a cell with the error will appear.
Have fun playing 8th edition. It's great (unless you're Tzeentch)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8S2U4Qnl3dWpqU0E
If you find any errors or are having trouble using this - tell me
I've been thinking about what you guys sais about the Kataphron Destroyers and realised they were really expensive now. 228 points for three Grav-Cannons/Cognis Flamers combo, on models that may ignore the penalty for moving but still only have 5". They're less resistant thank Aegis Kastelan Robots too, and the grav is not as a no-brainer as it was before, not everyone has a 3+ save and when they do it's out of LoS or doesn't have more than 1 Wound anyway. I'll replace them by more Robots with twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters and Incendine Combustors. Want to equip two of them with Fists and single Phosphor gun too to see if it's a nice CC anti-MC/Tank unit.
The only advantage I see is that you can just park the Destroyers in a building on deployment to have the high ground (it's over Anakin) and a cover save, while the Robots now can't climb anymore.
Against FOOT GUARD. His list included well over a hundred infantry. 4+ Infantry squads, 4+ SWS (flamers, meltaguns/Democharge), 4 Command Squads (grenade launchers), 3 HWS, assorted commisars/commanders. Playing Valhallans, he ran across the board to shoot/assault me to death. I was more than a little nervous with all the bodies he had and my anti-vehicle meant nothing. We played kill point mission with old dawn of war deployment.
Some notes:
-Life was looking good to take first turn until he seized the initiative.
-Definitely should have opened up with in-cover Cantacile.
-Cawl reroll is a must have for Kataphron and Kastelen units. Mostly reroll/cantacle bot.
-TPD is Cawl light for Onager/Skitarii, can hold his own against non-specialized combat pretty well. Can't shoot macrostubber and volkite blaster in same turn. :(
-Vanguard performed great, withering amount of shots from this squad. Lost most to forgetting his Flamer SWS could run/shoot at no penalty.
-Rangers got one sniper shot off on a commissar, rolled one for damage. They ate 6d6 mortar shots back to back turns so they left. Get cover from mortars now. (how is one mortar squad of 3 only 27 points??)
-Breachers spend the game hunting HWS and popping them with d3 damage. Snipped head off commissar when charged, but didnt do much else once in CC for rest of game. Ate a lot of shots with their 2+ in cover and T5.
-Destroyers PC did lots of work, eliminating a squad a turn. HGC did okay. They are still Infantry so they get infantry cover rules for area terrain and stuff.
-Eray Onager was meh. D6 shots didnt do much against infantry spam. Rolled a 1 for shots going after Lascannon HWS. Used CP to reroll. Another 1. Did 1 wound to one squad. Lived all game bc ignored by enemy.
-Shooty Kastelen MVP in protector stance. Eliminated two SWS/Command squads a turn for two turns. First Kastelen ate an assaulting meltagun, died to a 6 on the d6. Second Kastlen had taken one wound, ate Krak missile that popped for 5. Feelsbadman.jpg
-Without a vehicle to shoot at, Datasmith just stood for most game and charged with his wiffing powerfist.
It ended with Cawl, the Datasmith, the TPD,and 2 breachers in CC with two guard squads and two more Guard squads out on the table. I got first blood and slay warlord, he had linebreaker. Final total- Mechanicus 25, Guard 5.
So to all those afraid of infantry hordes, do not fear! Just be sure to play Kill Points and all will be okay. I would have been able to keep him off a backfield objective and maybe shot him off a center one, for a much closer game than I anticipated.
Aaranis wrote:I've been thinking about what you guys sais about the Kataphron Destroyers and realised they were really expensive now. 228 points for three Grav-Cannons/Cognis Flamers combo, on models that may ignore the penalty for moving but still only have 5". They're less resistant thank Aegis Kastelan Robots too, and the grav is not as a no-brainer as it was before, not everyone has a 3+ save and when they do it's out of LoS or doesn't have more than 1 Wound anyway. I'll replace them by more Robots with twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters and Incendine Combustors. Want to equip two of them with Fists and single Phosphor gun too to see if it's a nice CC anti-MC/Tank unit.
The only advantage I see is that you can just park the Destroyers in a building on deployment to have the high ground (it's over Anakin) and a cover save, while the Robots now can't climb anymore.
They are a little expensive, but being troops its nice to fill that slot. Rather have them then more units of rangers/vanguard. I haven't taken them as grav yet but I think they are better all plasma+blaster. And a little cheaper at 210pts.
why cant he shoot volkite and stubber in same turn? You can shoot all range weapons in a turn.
I had 2 robots, and after 1 game went and bought 2 more boxes. All 6 are now 3 Blasters each. They don't need fists. Its a crazy amount of shots, and if they need to melee, are still STR 6 base. Being a shooty army, if you have the options of guns or melee, always guns. I let the melee be for the units they are only melee
gally912 wrote:So I just finished my first game of 8th! We played ~1400 (a little light, but we wanted to play all painted so...)
Some notes:
-Life was looking good to take first turn until he seized the initiative.
-Definitely should have opened up with in-cover Cantacile.
-Cawl reroll is a must have for Kataphron and Kastelen units. Mostly reroll/cantacle bot.
-TPD is Cawl light for Onager/Skitarii, can hold his own against non-specialized combat pretty well. Can't shoot macrostubber and volkite blaster in same turn. :(
-Vanguard performed great, withering amount of shots from this squad. Lost most to forgetting his Flamer SWS could run/shoot at no penalty.
-Rangers got one sniper shot off on a commissar, rolled one for damage. They ate 6d6 mortar shots back to back turns so they left. Get cover from mortars now. (how is one mortar squad of 3 only 27 points??)
-Breachers spend the game hunting HWS and popping them with d3 damage. Snipped head off commissar when charged, but didnt do much else once in CC for rest of game. Ate a lot of shots with their 2+ in cover and T5.
-Destroyers PC did lots of work, eliminating a squad a turn. HGC did okay. They are still Infantry so they get infantry cover rules for area terrain and stuff.
-Eray Onager was meh. D6 shots didnt do much against infantry spam. Rolled a 1 for shots going after Lascannon HWS. Used CP to reroll. Another 1. Did 1 wound to one squad. Lived all game bc ignored by enemy.
-Shooty Kastelen MVP in protector stance. Eliminated two SWS/Command squads a turn for two turns. First Kastelen ate an assaulting meltagun, died to a 6 on the d6. Second Kastlen had taken one wound, ate Krak missile that popped for 5. Feelsbadman.jpg
-Without a vehicle to shoot at, Datasmith just stood for most game and charged with his wiffing powerfist.
It ended with Cawl, the Datasmith, the TPD,and 2 breachers in CC with two guard squads and two more Guard squads out on the table. I got first blood and slay warlord, he had linebreaker. Final total- Mechanicus 25, Guard 5.
So to all those afraid of infantry hordes, do not fear! Just be sure to play Kill Points and all will be okay. I would have been able to keep him off a backfield objective and maybe shot him off a center one, for a much closer game than I anticipated.
Needed more Blasterbots! Im sure a squad of them kills a squad of guard a turn no problem.
Eray Onager looked rather meh. Laser and Icarus seem to be the way to go. Laser also gets the heavy stubber which helps vs hordes.
I thought breachers were horrid just by the profile, but after a few have played with them and said the same, glad I didn't build any. Never will.
I am excited to see when FW releases the AdMech book, brining in 30k to 40k. They really need it for some variety. As much as I like Cawl, he is pretty much mandatory for his amazing shoot bubble.
The best stuff id say are...
Blasterbots /Datasmith (really you always take him with bots so...)
Cawl (Id pay 250 alone for his bubble)
Laser Onager/Icarus (Solid AA and tank murderbot)
Plasma Destoryers (Can overcharge more often with Cawl reroll)
Tech PRiest Dom. (all around solid. )
Id never take
Breachers, (nuff said)
Ruststalkers. (Just a really bad version of Infiltrators. While infilatators with Taser are not to bad.)
Servitors. (If the army didn't cost an arm and a leg (baaa daa chishhh) they would be ok to spam, but to costly for that they are.)
Engineer.( I have one, and the model is cool but hes kinda pointless when there are better options.)
Everything else seems ok.
Rangers did as much as I expected, Vanguard will do the same.
Chicken walkers are cheap, but not sure how much they are needed.
Priests are kinda meh all around. Great if they kill something but unless in a large blob, they kinda just vanish off the table.
Destoryers are not good. If you say that Onagers and Kastelans are better then that means Destroyers are awful. You can just take those two to better effect. AND you can take a knight. Look at how many backfield units you have. Do you really need a 6th one? Better fill the troops with cheap vanguard to hold the line with their -1 toughness aura and 15 overwatch attacks
So, after reading and considering I've come up with the following based on what I've already got painted and what people seem to like. I was hoping for some suggestions on how to fill it in.
I'm using whatever formation is basically the old CAD.
HQ: Cawl
TP: 10 rangers, 3 arquebii, onmispex, enhanced dt TP: 10 vanguard, 3 plasma caliver, enhanced dt, arc maul
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL?: 5x infiltrators (tazer/flachette)
HV: 4 kastellan robots (all guns)
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
Now if I've done my math right... that comes out to 1367 pts (no guarantees on the math).
There are some options... I could replace the Icarus Arrays with Neutron Lasers for example, I could split the skitarii troops into 2 units, or vary the special weapons in the skitarii units, etc.
Minor tweaks aside, I am hoping for some suggestions as to how to bring it up to 2000 pts. I have...
That's actually an excellent question em. I looked at it this way. Given the construction of the army... it's a) unlikely that any unit that suffers morale will be within 3" of the dunecrawlers... b) the skitarii shooting units already have their own data tether and c) while not terribly useful... the smoke is free.
That being said I did see that the dune crawlers actually have a morale value. Not knowing how morale affects vehicles I didn't realize this was something I should be concerned about. I should re-think that. Thanks em!
That's actually an excellent question em. I looked at it this way. Given the construction of the army... it's a) unlikely that any unit that suffers morale will be within 3" of the dunecrawlers... b) the skitarii shooting units already have their own data tether and c) while not terribly useful... the smoke is free.
That being said I did see that the dune crawlers actually have a morale value. Not knowing how morale affects vehicles I didn't realize this was something I should be concerned about. I should re-think that. Thanks em!
No prob. Just so much new stuff to consider this edition. Both items are free, I believe, but you have to pick one.
WrentheFaceless wrote:Knights are crazy good this edition
I have heard a broad range of critique on them, including that they die pretty easy and/or fast. So, has anyone played with them specifically and seen good/bad results? What is your experience Wren?
Gitsplitta wrote: So, after reading and considering I've come up with the following based on what I've already got painted and what people seem to like. I was hoping for some suggestions on how to fill it in.
Spoiler:
I'm using whatever formation is basically the old CAD.
HQ: Cawl
TP: 10 rangers, 3 arquebii, onmispex, enhanced dt TP: 10 vanguard, 3 plasma caliver, enhanced dt, arc maul
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL?: 5x infiltrators (tazer/flachette)
HV: 4 kastellan robots (all guns)
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
Now if I've done my math right... that comes out to 1367 pts (no guarantees on the math).
There are some options... I could replace the Icarus Arrays with Neutron Lasers for example, I could split the skitarii troops into 2 units, or vary the special weapons in the skitarii units, etc.
Minor tweaks aside, I am hoping for some suggestions as to how to bring it up to 2000 pts. I have...
Don't take units of 10 skitarii. Take units of 5. Omnispex and Datatether can't be both equiped. And they are both bad anyway. Omnispex used to be good when cover was a seperate save and datatether is not needed in units of 5. You also get an aditional captain in units of five and generic troop.
Datasmiths aren't good. Only need 1 to switch the modes and then go die or something :p
Get at least 1 Neutron. Melee weapons on Troops are usually bad. But this edition you might take the cheapest one because of turn 1 charges.
You must add another dominus and split at least one of the troops. Then get the Crusader knight in. Maybe some dragoons.
That's actually an excellent question em. I looked at it this way. Given the construction of the army... it's a) unlikely that any unit that suffers morale will be within 3" of the dunecrawlers... b) the skitarii shooting units already have their own data tether and c) while not terribly useful... the smoke is free.
That being said I did see that the dune crawlers actually have a morale value. Not knowing how morale affects vehicles I didn't realize this was something I should be concerned about. I should re-think that. Thanks em!
No prob. Just so much new stuff to consider this edition. Both items are free, I believe, but you have to pick one.
WrentheFaceless wrote:Knights are crazy good this edition
I have heard a broad range of critique on them, including that they die pretty easy and/or fast. So, has anyone played with them specifically and seen good/bad results? What is your experience Wren?
My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
I'll be honest.. I'm not really seeing why the PC is so much better than heavy grav on the destroyers. It's only 3 points more expensive, and while admittedly you don't get as good strength it's decently high and, you KNOW you're going to get 5 shots out of each one.
why cant he shoot volkite and stubber in same turn? You can shoot all range weapons in a turn.
Macrostubber is a Pistol, and you must choose to shoot pistol or non-pistol weapons. I was disappointed. ~ NINJA'd
I'm not sure I see the point in MSUing the Skitarii. Any models can hold obj now, and its based upon per model. They can all split shots. The opponent can also split shots, so its not really an increase to survivability. If anything, I see it diluting your deployment phase, perhaps? But that might be a detriment to go first.
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Neutron Laser really seems under-costed at 45 points compared to a Twin Lascannon at 50. D3 shots is about as good as 2, Strength 10 > 9, -4 > -3, and the D6 with a minimum of 3 is so consistent.
Gak Attack wrote: I'll be honest.. I'm not really seeing why the PC is so much better than heavy grav on the destroyers. It's only 3 points more expensive, and while admittedly you don't get as good strength it's decently high and, you KNOW you're going to get 5 shots out of each one.
Right, it is 100% 15 shots, and on average you will get less for the PC, but PC can be overcharged a little easier with Cawls reroll.
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
Wow really the Volkite/Macrostubber is devastating to hear. But I think you're right. Next one I'm building with Eradication Ray and Phosphor Serpenta just for variety's sake anyway.
I love MSU in 8th because yes it helps in Morale Phase, and some weapons do more hits/damage when the unit is a certain number. You also get more Alphas so that's 1 Ld and 1 Attack more. I'll be keeping my pistols/CC weapon on Vanguard Alphas for fluff reasons. As for the Destroyers they're filling a Troop slot that I'd prefer filled by Vanguards, think a bit about it but if you shoot enough Radium bullets even on Vehicles, the 2 Damage on 6+ is huge when compared to the number of shots you can do. Well it's huge against everybody but still, Rangers are not just different now, they're only good for placing your Arquebii now. I prefer the visual effect of an army with loads of infantry than too few models, playing small armies frighten me now in 8th
I'll be testing CC Robots some time, I still want to have more and I love myself more variety on the models, they look cuter with Fists.
I think part of why MSU is important in a not-quite-as-hordy-and-assaulty-army is because when you do face any army that assaults you, you can run screens with those small units to prevent your important stuff from being charged. Then, rather than having a screening 10-man, 100 point unit stuck in combat, you only have a 5-man, 50 point unit and you can get twice as many, easily filling out the detachments for more CP.
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
The problem with those suggestions is... how? Points are so tight as it is! I got to keep messing with the list, but fitting everything into 2000pt is way harder than I thought it would be.
On an aside, I don't see how melee is underpowered. If I face a lot of high-wound models. Reaper is a good way to gut a Land Raider, for instance. Against 1- and 2-wound infantry, sure. But it is absolutely going to ruin anything it hits. The feet will be ideal for larger amounts of lower wound models though, for sure.
Hello dakka members,
It's my first post on dakka but I've been following the discussions for some time now.
Something is really bugging me so I had to create an account if only to ask this question.
I don't understand why everyone likes so much the full HB on the Kastelans..
They are bs 4+ and the phosphors are heavies... so they are basically hitting on 5+ right?
Have I been missing something?
Hail the Omnissiah!
Hello dakka members,
It's my first post on dakka but I've been following the discussions for some time now.
Something is really bugging me so I had to create an account if only to ask this question.
I don't understand why everyone likes so much the full HB on the Kastelans..
They are bs 4+ and the phosphors are heavies... so they are basically hitting on 5+ right?
Have I been missing something?
Hail the Omnissiah!
Welcome, and glory to the Omnissiah! Let's talk about why kastelans are so good with 3 HPB. First, each HPB is 3 shots, at S6, AP-2, no cover. Even though each shot is only 1 damage, that's an impressive number of shots, strength, and AP. Second, the -1 to hit only kicks in if they move, so if you don't move them, you still hit on 4+. Not bad, but let's make it better. If you notice, there's a protocol rule for the kastelans that allows them to pick 1 of 3 protocols to use. One of these prevents you from moving but you get to shoot twice every shooting phase and overwatch. Well, now that's 18 shots per robot per shooting/overwatch phase. Hitting on 4s, each robot gets 9 S6, AP-2 hits ignoring cover. That's pretty fantastic, but can we do better? Oh hello, who is this handsome tech-priest? Why, it's Belisarius Cawl who lets every "Mars" admech unit re-roll failed to-hit rolls within 6" of him. Well, now we're hitting on 4+ with 18 shots, re-rolling. For 110 points per, that's a pretty darn good deal.
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
The problem with those suggestions is... how? Points are so tight as it is! I got to keep messing with the list, but fitting everything into 2000pt is way harder than I thought it would be.
On an aside, I don't see how melee is underpowered. If I face a lot of high-wound models. Reaper is a good way to gut a Land Raider, for instance. Against 1- and 2-wound infantry, sure. But it is absolutely going to ruin anything it hits. The feet will be ideal for larger amounts of lower wound models though, for sure.
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
WrentheFaceless wrote: Knights can walk out of combat with infantry and act as normal, the only restriction on if there isnt any clear space within 12 inches of him
Which is what I meant. A smart player can just keep a crappy unit in front
WrentheFaceless wrote: Knights can walk out of combat with infantry and act as normal, the only restriction on if there isnt any clear space within 12 inches of him
Which is what I meant. A smart player can just keep a crappy unit in front
He can move anyway he wants, would be hard to lock him in an area unless the knight player intentionally put himself in a corner
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
So... taking it away from two detachments, going for just a Battalion. Cutting a Datasmith and a trio of Robots to make room for other stuff. 30 Vanguards gives me firepower and screening units for my Robots, Crawlers, and Knight.
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Titanic Feet
[512]
[2000]
A bit of filler points thrown in, like the Power Sword. I have anti-tank, anti-infantry, and anti-air. Not a lot of bodies, but we don't do that well anyhow. The nice part is the sheer variety (even with the spammy troops, but that isn't our fault we have like 4 choices!).
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
So... taking it away from two detachments, going for just a Battalion. Cutting a Datasmith and a trio of Robots to make room for other stuff. 30 Vanguards gives me firepower and screening units for my Robots, Crawlers, and Knight.
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Titanic Feet
[512]
[2000]
A bit of filler points thrown in, like the Power Sword. I have anti-tank, anti-infantry, and anti-air. Not a lot of bodies, but we don't do that well anyhow. The nice part is the sheer variety (even with the spammy troops, but that isn't our fault we have like 4 choices!).
Kinda toying with what you posted, but with a couple changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And damn... We can't even do that.. That's an illegal list. We need another HQ to get battalion. :(
DAMMIT.
We desperately need a more affordable HQ. The nuMarine Lieutenants are like... 70ish points, while our cheapest is double that.
I hope our future Codex gives us something.
Also, the RFBC on the Knight seems bad. I mean, it can be 2 measly hits for that price tag? I would rather have the Thermal, which seems all around more deadly.
Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Well heres the thing, these rules are just to get everyone started with 8th to actually have usable rules. GW is still coming out with individual codexes somewhere soon down the line after 8th launches
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well heres the thing, these rules are just to get everyone started with 8th to actually have usable rules. GW is still coming out with individual codexes somewhere soon down the line after 8th launches
Yea, I know. But so much of the rules in the units were stripped away. I can't imagine a Codex will fix that. At best, I expect Relics, Detachments, and rules for Forge Worlds. Hopefully, the latter two open things up for us a bit, because right now its a tough faction to build with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Endalaus wrote: Let's try this again, but we're losing some numbers in our troops to make it work.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (6CP)
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Tech-Priest Dominus
Macrostubber, Axe, Eradication Ray
[141]
I will have to give that a go when I finally get my stuff all built and painted (in the works now!). I think that is about as good as this specific list direction can be prior to our Codex release and whatever that brings.
I will have to give that a go when I finally get my stuff all built and painted (in the works now!). I think that is about as good as this specific list direction can be prior to our Codex release and whatever that brings.
Honestly, I really liked the list you were working on with the Spearhead / Outrider stuff as it seemed pretty strong, but the charge threat kinda looms there. Though I will say over-watching with 3 - 6 Bots would be extremely silly.
Something I was also thinking about, was maybe running the Original Spearhead, but instead of the outriders with Lascannon Balistarri, adding some elite units of Infiltrators to pop up on flanks and harass the chargers before they get to us, therefore leaving us to target everything else freely. I just couldn't get the points to fully line up. But the idea is there.
I dunno... I'll play with some stuff and see where it gets me.
WrentheFaceless wrote: On another note, has anyone used the new and improved electropriests yet?
Given how hideous those models are, I am not running them until I find an alternative I can live with. Right now, leaning towards Tech Thralls with CCW arms or some variation of Scyllax even.
Oh yes I long for the day they release a model usable for 40K of the Secutarii Axiarch, and while we're at it that they keep the Secutarii and make them usable in 40K. The fluff about these guys is awesome.
Endalaus wrote: Honestly, I really liked the list you were working on with the Spearhead / Outrider stuff as it seemed pretty strong, but the charge threat kinda looms there. Though I will say over-watching with 3 - 6 Bots would be extremely silly.
Something I was also thinking about, was maybe running the Original Spearhead, but instead of the outriders with Lascannon Balistarri, adding some elite units of Infiltrators to pop up on flanks and harass the chargers before they get to us, therefore leaving us to target everything else freely. I just couldn't get the points to fully line up. But the idea is there.
I dunno... I'll play with some stuff and see where it gets me.
I am shy four Robots and a Dunecrawler for my Outrider/Spearhead list. Remedying that shortly, but I won't get that on the table anytime soon. With Hordehammer looking likely, at least for a while, not having any dudes on the table seems risky. I definitely want to try out the Battalion first, if I can.
So I had to go back and look at this again as I didn't account for the flamer or stubber on the Knight. Threw off the whole list... >< these auto-include-but-still-have-to-pay-for wargear options are throwing me off big time. I think this list is finally completely legal and fully pointed. There are some points that are interchangeable like going down to 3x 6 man units of Vanguard and keeping a Las Balistarri, but I felt they were too close to MSU and wouldn't be as effective. I dunno... Decisions
Hi all, new to the forums, and even more so, new to 40k!
Building my first list with an emphasis on Imperial Knights, with AdMechs to help them out.
I see that many now go for the Thermal cannon over the rapid fire battle cannon, and I don't see the appeal really. It has more armor cracking and costs a bit less, but the range is half, its average shots is way less, and you only get the double dice/discard at 18"
I'd rather have the potential of more attacks VS hordes etc, as knights have armor cracking enough regardless of weapon chosen
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Geez, stop saying that before you play a game. I played against a top 3 faction(Nids) and against a player who's won tournaments. "Gutted"? look at fn daemons. If I demolished tyranids then daemons will almost no tools have 0 hope.
BTW, we should just take as many units as we can in order to set up our better units later. We will go 2nd 80% of the time anyway due to no access to transports with our 13+ units. So just split units up as much as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
str00dles1 wrote: Are knights good to take for anyone or more so for admech?
I could get one cheap and would love to paint it up but I just don't see how it's so amazing? Sell me on it
"My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF." this isn't complete BS to you? Why'd anyone even consider not taking a knight is beyond me :p
Well, here's what I came up with. I tried the knight but it was just too expensive & made me give up too much to have it. I must admit that I find the command benefits really underwhelming. I guess I'll have to see when I actually start playing.
So, yeah... I'm experimenting a bit with the FA slots and the grav destroyers. We'll see how it goes. If some things look a bit odd (like all the plasma calivers) it's because those are the models I've got at the moment. I think this is a good place to start at any rate.
Gitsplitta wrote: Well, here's what I came up with. I tried the knight but it was just too expensive & made me give up too much to have it. I must admit that I find the command benefits really underwhelming. I guess I'll have to see when I actually start playing.
So, yeah... I'm experimenting a bit with the FA slots and the grav destroyers. We'll see how it goes. If some things look a bit odd (like all the plasma calivers) it's because those are the models I've got at the moment. I think this is a good place to start at any rate.
Bad things about the list: destroyers and plasma. The troops will die really fast. They might get 1 volley off with the plasma at most. Is that worth 14 pts each? Not really.
Also 5 infiltrators cost 130 at most...
I won't argue with you, though I'd like to see the destroyers in action before I flush them. But I don't have anything better to fill up the points. Knights are insane at around/over 500 pts each and the only other things I have are a set of 3 breachers, a unit of rust stalkers and another datasmith... all worse than what I've got in the list right now (according to what I've read here anyway). Without the plasma I'm down to 2 7-man squads, which I can't say is better.
The only thing I could do easily would be to add a second dominus and convert the two ranger plasmas to arquebii (the irony is both plasma guys were converted FROM arquebussiers in the first place). Then I'd drop the destroyers and I think the points would just about work out.
I won't argue with you, though I'd like to see the destroyers in action before I flush them. But I don't have anything better to fill up the points. Knights are insane at around/over 500 pts each and the only other things I have are a set of 3 breachers, a unit of rust stalkers and another datasmith... all worse than what I've got in the list right now (according to what I've read here anyway). Without the plasma I'm down to 2 7-man squads, which I can't say is better.
The only thing I could do easily would be to add a second dominus and convert the two ranger plasmas to arquebii (the irony is both plasma guys were converted FROM arquebussiers in the first place). Then I'd drop the destroyers and I think the points would just about work out.
I agree with trying them since you have them. You never know, maybe you find them really useful. Also local meta could be a bit different as well. I will mention that the feedback from those of you already playing with 8th rules is helpful. I'm waiting to hear from someone that bucks the trend and finds something different that works, maybe that's a pipe dream but more units seem viable across the various armies compared to 7th. Maybe that doesn't apply to us but...
I'm still just loosely thinking about lists as I build this army. I want to have options so if people play me it's not always the same list over and over. I have a solid foundation bought, just gotta build and paint it.
Posted this on the army list thread but after reading this one..this is the place to be. so hello everyone. I played a couple of games now and came up with the following list.
Comments: In my experience you need at least 3 units of Vanguards to screen your shooting from first turn smiting and charging. Ruststalkers are for countercharging, Infiltrators for...well...infiltrating. Kastelan, Onager and Cawl are the Mechanicus gunline. Dragoons can push forward and keep CC away from the gun line as well as cover the knight and keeping him off unwanted Close Combat. I know its only 3 command points but I think this list is very solid. thoughts?
(1850 points)
Iago40k wrote: Posted this on the army list thread but after reading this one..this is the place to be. so hello everyone. I played a couple of games now and came up with the following list.
Comments: In my experience you need at least 3 units of Vanguards to screen your shooting from first turn smiting and charging. Ruststalkers are for countercharging, Infiltrators for...well...infiltrating. Kastelan, Onager and Cawl are the Mechanicus gunline. Dragoons can push forward and keep CC away from the gun line as well as cover the knight and keeping him off unwanted Close Combat. I know its only 3 command points but I think this list is very solid. thoughts?
(1850 points)
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling, Battle cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer)
Auxiliary Support Detachment
5 Ruststalker (Chordclaw, Razors)
Good list except for that you can just take a dominus instead of rustsalkers(+ stuff) and get +3 CP instead of 0. You're not even using the main reason to take the spearhead detachment - more than 3 heavy suppport(aka more than 2 onagers)
Iago40k wrote: Posted this on the army list thread but after reading this one..this is the place to be. so hello everyone. I played a couple of games now and came up with the following list.
Comments: In my experience you need at least 3 units of Vanguards to screen your shooting from first turn smiting and charging. Ruststalkers are for countercharging, Infiltrators for...well...infiltrating. Kastelan, Onager and Cawl are the Mechanicus gunline. Dragoons can push forward and keep CC away from the gun line as well as cover the knight and keeping him off unwanted Close Combat. I know its only 3 command points but I think this list is very solid. thoughts?
(1850 points)
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling, Battle cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer)
Auxiliary Support Detachment
5 Ruststalker (Chordclaw, Razors)
Good list except for that you can just take a dominus instead of rustsalkers(+ stuff) and get +3 CP instead of 0. You're not even using the main reason to take the spearhead detachment - more than 3 heavy suppport(aka more than 2 onagers)
Sad thing is that the Ruststalkers are 35 points cheaper than a TPD. I got 3 Heavy Support choices with the 2 onagers and the kastelan plus 3 elite with ruststalkers, infiltrators and cybernetica datasmith. This leads to this weird ass detachment decision.
I could just kick out the Ruststalkers for another vanguard plus stormspear rocket system for the knight. But having no real countercharge unit could hurt a lot.
Iago40k wrote: Posted this on the army list thread but after reading this one..this is the place to be. so hello everyone. I played a couple of games now and came up with the following list.
Comments: In my experience you need at least 3 units of Vanguards to screen your shooting from first turn smiting and charging. Ruststalkers are for countercharging, Infiltrators for...well...infiltrating. Kastelan, Onager and Cawl are the Mechanicus gunline. Dragoons can push forward and keep CC away from the gun line as well as cover the knight and keeping him off unwanted Close Combat. I know its only 3 command points but I think this list is very solid. thoughts?
(1850 points)
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling, Battle cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer)
Auxiliary Support Detachment
5 Ruststalker (Chordclaw, Razors)
Good list except for that you can just take a dominus instead of rustsalkers(+ stuff) and get +3 CP instead of 0. You're not even using the main reason to take the spearhead detachment - more than 3 heavy suppport(aka more than 2 onagers)
Sad thing is that the Ruststalkers are 35 points cheaper than a TPD. I got 3 Heavy Support choices with the 2 onagers and the kastelan plus 3 elite with ruststalkers, infiltrators and cybernetica datasmith. This leads to this weird ass detachment decision.
I could just kick out the Ruststalkers for another vanguard plus stormspear rocket system for the knight. But having no real countercharge unit could hurt a lot.
battle cannon isn't great, just go thermal instead. that's 30 pts already. Then just chage some weapons to cheaper options and you'll have 3CP.I used up all 6 of mine in like 4 turns so they're needed.
Iago40k wrote: Olay i will give it a shot. What do you think about the carapace weapons?
Ironstorm seems the best by far points wise
Sure, it is cheap, but Stormspear is better. I'm not sure when talking about a model as expensive as the knight, saving few point really matters.
As for other weapons, I see everyone goes for crusader. I can see why, the stompy feet are really good, so the melee weapons are not that attractive. This saddens me, as I love my reaper sword. Against what sort of foes, would the reaper be more useful than the feet, and if you go with reaper (despite the prevailing wisdom) what other weapons you'd choose to go with it?
Iago40k wrote: Olay i will give it a shot. What do you think about the carapace weapons?
Ironstorm seems the best by far points wise
Sure, it is cheap, but Stormspear is better. I'm not sure when talking about a model as expensive as the knight, saving few point really matters.
As for other weapons, I see everyone goes for crusader. I can see why, the stompy feet are really good, so the melee weapons are not that attractive. This saddens me, as I love my reaper sword. Against what sort of foes, would the reaper be more useful than the feet, and if you go with reaper (despite the prevailing wisdom) what other weapons you'd choose to go with it?
What storm has in strenght, iron makes up for in utility. I'd say they're about equal and the cheaper one wins...
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Geez, stop saying that before you play a game. I played against a top 3 faction(Nids) and against a player who's won tournaments. "Gutted"? look at fn daemons. If I demolished tyranids then daemons will almost no tools have 0 hope.
I am not talking about actual performance, I am talking about flavor. A lot of special rules went away and I feel that kinda took some of the luster off the faction.
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Geez, stop saying that before you play a game. I played against a top 3 faction(Nids) and against a player who's won tournaments. "Gutted"? look at fn daemons. If I demolished tyranids then daemons will almost no tools have 0 hope.
I am not talking about actual performance, I am talking about flavor. A lot of special rules went away and I feel that kinda took some of the luster off the faction.
Every other army I've read lost 50% rules, admech lost 25%. We got off easy
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Geez, stop saying that before you play a game. I played against a top 3 faction(Nids) and against a player who's won tournaments. "Gutted"? look at fn daemons. If I demolished tyranids then daemons will almost no tools have 0 hope.
I am not talking about actual performance, I am talking about flavor. A lot of special rules went away and I feel that kinda took some of the luster off the faction.
For now almost all units are fairly generic. So hoping for flavor out the gate isn't going to happen. That will happen when admech gets a new codex. Its Primaris and Nurgle at the start, then anyones guess whos after them. Build to see what works and ignore flavor for the time being.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Every other army I've read lost 50% rules, admech lost 25%. We got off easy
I only hear complaints from Daemon players mostly. Seems like most other armies stayed the same or mildly improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
str00dles1 wrote: For now almost all units are fairly generic. So hoping for flavor out the gate isn't going to happen. That will happen when admech gets a new codex. Its Primaris and Nurgle at the start, then anyones guess whos after them. Build to see what works and ignore flavor for the time being.
Yes, I am aware. Doesn't mean I am excited to play the waiting game - mostly because of the Cawl debacle and the <Forge World> rules. So very curious to see what those wind up giving us, as well as a possible return of Doctrina (fingers crossed!).
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Geez, stop saying that before you play a game. I played against a top 3 faction(Nids) and against a player who's won tournaments. "Gutted"? look at fn daemons. If I demolished tyranids then daemons will almost no tools have 0 hope.
I am not talking about actual performance, I am talking about flavor. A lot of special rules went away and I feel that kinda took some of the luster off the faction.
Every other army I've read lost 50% rules, admech lost 25%. We got off easy
I used to play pure Skitarii, I don not share that sentiment at all. I really hope that GW can give Skitarii and ad mech a bit more individual flavour for each faction. Why even add skitarii en cult keywords otherwise?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Every other army I've read lost 50% rules, admech lost 25%. We got off easy
I only hear complaints from Daemon players mostly. Seems like most other armies stayed the same or mildly improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
str00dles1 wrote: For now almost all units are fairly generic. So hoping for flavor out the gate isn't going to happen. That will happen when admech gets a new codex. Its Primaris and Nurgle at the start, then anyones guess whos after them. Build to see what works and ignore flavor for the time being.
Yes, I am aware. Doesn't mean I am excited to play the waiting game - mostly because of the Cawl debacle and the <Forge World> rules. So very curious to see what those wind up giving us, as well as a possible return of Doctrina (fingers crossed!).
Yea, Daemons are pretty horrid. Very un fluff driven.
I hear you, no one wants to wait for their armies dex Part of the reason I will have a small Primaris army as I want a codex first.
What do you mean Cawl debacle? Because he is Mars? I guess it could be bothersome if you built a admech army from another world, but you can just say cawls "mars" is whatever planet you want til a codex comes out. Even then, who cares. Only may matter with sticklers from tourneys, but casual games they can all be from omega gama prime plutos forgeworld. *shrug*
I used to play pure Skitarii, I don not share that sentiment at all. I really hope that GW can give Skitarii and ad mech a bit more individual flavour for each faction. Why even add skitarii en cult keywords otherwise?
Under the same main faction because it is easier. Keywords are for future special abilities. Forgeworld is going to release a index "soon" that has all 30k admech in it to be used in 40k. That and what we have from GW is plenty. I wouldn't expect anything new admech for literally years after that unless forgeworld makes some one off thing.
Under the same main faction because it is easier. Keywords are for future special abilities. Forgeworld is going to release a index "soon" that has all 30k admech in it to be used in 40k. That and what we have from GW is plenty. I wouldn't expect anything new admech for literally years after that unless forgeworld makes some one off thing.
true, fires of cyraxus is going to give us a lot of 30k goodies, which is always a good thing but GW has demonstrated in the past that they can rapidly bring out a lot of books in a short time span. I'm expecting that after release of 8th we will have some AoS releases, and maby in the fall/winter a lot of 40K releases. At least a few of them codexes, with SM guaranteed among them. With a bit of luck, we might actually get one too.
What do you mean Cawl debacle? Because he is Mars? I guess it could be bothersome if you built a admech army from another world, but you can just say cawls "mars" is whatever planet you want til a codex comes out. Even then, who cares. Only may matter with sticklers from tourneys, but casual games they can all be from omega gama prime plutos forgeworld. *shrug*
Metalica here. So I am going to run my Cawl until the Codex drops, but if I have to choose between fluffy Metalica rules that might be decent, but have no HQ option beyond the TPD, I might be a bit annoyed. See my issue? It isn't that I can't count-as Mars - no one local to me would care. It is just that I wonder if I will get caught up with options without options, if that makes sense.
Gitsplitta wrote: I'm actually really curious to see the Forge World-40k rules for the 30k AdMech flyer as it potentially fills a gaping hole in our lists.
So I switched around some options and now it looks something like this:
Batallion Detachment
Cawl
TPD (Volkite, Macrostubber)
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Sicarian Infiltrators (Stubcarbine and Power Swords)
Cybernetica Datasmith
2 Kastelan Robots (Tripple HP)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron)
Onager Dunecrawler (Icarus)
2 Sydonian Dragoons (Taser Lance)
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling,Thermal, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer)
Changes: Ruststalkers, Battle Cannon and Infiltrator Taser Lances and Flachettes are out. TPD and Thermal Cannon are in. Got the Batallion Detachment but lack actual model count. Playing Demons tonight so we'll see how that goes.
Gitsplitta wrote: I'm actually really curious to see the Forge World-40k rules for the 30k AdMech flyer as it potentially fills a gaping hole in our lists.
AdMech flyer? The Vultarax?
Yeah.... the thing that looks like it belongs in a Nurgle army...
Gitsplitta wrote: I'm actually really curious to see the Forge World-40k rules for the 30k AdMech flyer as it potentially fills a gaping hole in our lists.
AdMech flyer? The Vultarax?
Yeah.... the thing that looks like it belongs in a Nurgle army...
Well, I am not holding my breath for any 40k rules for 30k stuff. I will believe it when I see it... but if they do, I will gladly buy them. Gorgeous models all around.
Iago40k wrote: So I switched around some options and now it looks something like this:
Batallion Detachment
Cawl
TPD (Volkite, Macrostubber)
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Skitarii Vanguard
5 Sicarian Infiltrators (Stubcarbine and Power Swords)
Cybernetica Datasmith
2 Kastelan Robots (Tripple HP)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron)
Onager Dunecrawler (Icarus)
2 Sydonian Dragoons (Taser Lance)
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling,Thermal, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer)
Changes: Ruststalkers, Battle Cannon and Infiltrator Taser Lances and Flachettes are out. TPD and Thermal Cannon are in. Got the Batallion Detachment but lack actual model count. Playing Demons tonight so we'll see how that goes.
Literally my list at 1850 And you're going against daemons? Should be easy as cake. Go easy on him :p
And tell us how it went
I can't see if anyone posted or talked about this already, but have we all noticed that our canticles (while nerfed) are chosen and take effect at the beginning of the battle round?
This means even if we don't get first turn, we can have shroudpsalm up for that sweet cover bonus to weather the first turn of enemy shooting. That seems pretty huge to me.
Are there other benefits of always calling the canticle at the start of the round?
Related: does shroudpsalm affect Kastelans? Looking for that tasty 1+ armor in their base protocol - I know the 1 always fails but it makes AP-1 guns effectively do nothing!
NobledukeofGork wrote: I can't see if anyone posted or talked about this already, but have we all noticed that our canticles (while nerfed) are chosen and take effect at the beginning of the battle round?
This means even if we don't get first turn, we can have shroudpsalm up for that sweet cover bonus to weather the first turn of enemy shooting. That seems pretty huge to me.
Are there other benefits of always calling the canticle at the start of the round?
Related: does shroudpsalm affect Kastelans? Looking for that tasty 1+ armor in their base protocol - I know the 1 always fails but it makes AP-1 guns effectively do nothing!
Yes I did, trust me.
And yes it does. Why wouldn't it?
Related: does shroudpsalm affect Kastelans? Looking for that tasty 1+ armor in their base protocol - I know the 1 always fails but it makes AP-1 guns effectively do nothing!
From what I can tell, yes they would essentially have a 1+ Armor Save.
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
People wanted them in one book.
People got what they wanted. I wanted them to stay separate.
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
People wanted them in one book.
People got what they wanted. I wanted them to stay separate.
That really has nothing to do with what they did. I am talking fluffy rules.
DjPyro3 wrote: Just wanted to post my 750 list here, see if any improvements can be made. Although Skittari is pretty dang limited in the lower points.
HQ:
x1 Tech-Priest Dominus - 135
Elite:
x1 Datasmith - 52
Heavy:
x2 Kastelans w/ x3 Heavy Phosphor - 220
x1 Onager w/ Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber - 143
Troops:
x2 10 Vanguard - 200
There should be a stickied post with "stop taking non 5-man skitarii squads and kataphrons" :p
Gitsplitta wrote: I'm actually really curious to see the Forge World-40k rules for the 30k AdMech flyer as it potentially fills a gaping hole in our lists.
AdMech flyer? The Vultarax?
Yeah.... the thing that looks like it belongs in a Nurgle army...
Well, I am not holding my breath for any 40k rules for 30k stuff. I will believe it when I see it... but if they do, I will gladly buy them. Gorgeous models all around.
Fw confirmed at warhammer fest that's whats happening and the book should come this month also. No specific date given for this month though.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: AdMech vs Craftworlds on Twitch, folks. Just something to take a watch and see the rules in action.
God, I hate the commentators.
Wouldn't it be awesome if someone took 50 robots
Wouldn't it be awesome if someone took 15 heldrakes
wouldn't it be-SHUT UP. NO. IT WOULDN'T. Why is spam encouraged every time they talk over a battle. Spam is NOT fun. No. Stop it. No.
Wouldn't it be nice if they stopped calling Kastellans "Castellax", and the Magos Dominus "Archmagos"? Seriously, the GW plastic models don't deserve to be mistaken for the essence of perfection that is the resin FW Mechanicum ones.
Sticky has been added.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'll be stealing writing unit summaries tomorrow or late today.
Well the reason it was delayed was to get it ready for 8th, why release it when they'd just have to redo it again?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: Wouldn't it be nice if they stopped calling Kastellans "Castellax", and the Magos Dominus "Archmagos"? Seriously, the GW plastic models don't deserve to be mistaken for the essence of perfection that is the resin FW Mechanicum ones.
Sticky has been added.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'll be stealing writing unit summaries tomorrow or late today.
I disagree, the 40k Dominus looks much better than either of the FW Magos weird caterpillar models.
Verviedi wrote: Wouldn't it be nice if they stopped calling Kastellans "Castellax", and the Magos Dominus "Archmagos"? Seriously, the GW plastic models don't deserve to be mistaken for the essence of perfection that is the resin FW Mechanicum ones.
Sticky has been added.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'll be stealing writing unit summaries tomorrow or late today.
I was joking but cool I mean, it's the truth :p
Although "massive" maybe is overstating it xD Kataphrons are great in a vacuum. But AdMech isn't a "vacuum" they are just worse and more expensive and cover the same roles as Kastelans and Onagers
I was thinking it over in my head on why 10 man squads were so bad, and then I remembered Battleshock and their awful leadership lol.
I'm kind of surprised they didn't give us more ways to re-roll or improve leadership beyond one piece of equipment and one canticle we can reliably use once.
DjPyro3 wrote: I was thinking it over in my head on why 10 man squads were so bad, and then I remembered Battleshock and their awful leadership lol.
I'm kind of surprised they didn't give us more ways to re-roll or improve leadership beyond one piece of equipment and one canticle we can reliably use once.
Right? A faction who has the portions of their brains that respond to fear removed are just such pushovers.
So I just realized the Kastellens don't have a rule to ignore the heavy movement restriction. This isn't a problem with the double shooting protocol, but I just played a game where they had to keep moving and missed most their shots
I think its ridiculous that our big robots that are walking effigies to the omnissiah, with guns built into their arms, are less able to wield heavy weapons than servitors on tracks!
Talking about battle servitors - they are the worst now. So many points for such little effect. I took the heavy arc against Tau to take down devilfish and they wounded on 5s! I looked through the guard index and realized how bad the arc weapons are agaonst vehicles at toughness 7. I would rather take torsion cannons. Still d6, but against everything AND easier to wound. Just much less shots. I havn't tried grav yet but for the cost I could have much better units.
Verviedi wrote: Wouldn't it be nice if they stopped calling Kastellans "Castellax", and the Magos Dominus "Archmagos"? Seriously, the GW plastic models don't deserve to be mistaken for the essence of perfection that is the resin FW Mechanicum ones.
Sticky has been added.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'll be stealing writing unit summaries tomorrow or late today.
I was joking but cool I mean, it's the truth :p
Although "massive" maybe is overstating it xD Kataphrons are great in a vacuum. But AdMech isn't a "vacuum" they are just worse and more expensive and cover the same roles as Kastelans and Onagers
Id say they compete with Robots for sure, not so much Onagers. Onagers is your vehicle killer or AA.
Either way, Robots are under coasted and or Destroyers are over coasted. Their role is to be heavy troop killers/light vehicles but the amount of shots robots get just overwhelms it by a large margin
DjPyro3 wrote: I was thinking it over in my head on why 10 man squads were so bad, and then I remembered Battleshock and their awful leadership lol.
I'm kind of surprised they didn't give us more ways to re-roll or improve leadership beyond one piece of equipment and one canticle we can reliably use once.
Have you read the Dragoon, Ballistarii or Onager rules?
You have two pieces of equipment, one on infantry and one on vehicles that grant a LD benefit in a bubble.
Subscribers only for the vod though, so I'll be missing it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, I've made a separate thread regarding this list as well, but it seems this thread is the place to be.
I am looking to get into 8th edition, so this will be my first army.
I originally looked to what I really wanted to play, and immediately fell for both AdMech and Imp Knights, so I'm merging the two.
So, I may be heading to the store tomorrow to pick up a few boxes, would love to know if this list COULD work, even though the unit count is low. From the many batreps I've watched, going after more than 2, maybe 3 objectives seems to be the norm, so I'm not that worried in regards to the unit count, but the bonus to being done with deployment first and getting that firtst round is big (as I see it)
So, with this said, here's the list, 1997 points of Admech ft. Imp Knights :
Cawl Fulgurite Electro-Priests (5)
Fulgurite Electro-Priests (5)
Cybernetica Datasmith
Kastelan Robots (4) triple heavy phosphor blasters
Knight Crusader, Avenger gatling cannon, heavy flamer, heavy stubber, meltagun, Rapid-fire battle cannon, stormspear rocket pod
Keeping the Priests in two units of 5 grants me an extra CP, and I don't really see a negative effect?
The plan for this list is to shoot most things off the table, and wade through the remains with the knights, as they can both shoot, and charge, and if in melee already, they can disengage, shoot and re-charge, if I've read the rules correctly, so its a huge damage potential.
I realize I have to be careful in regards to armor crackers and units with strong Mortal Wound capabilities, but my thinking is, those will be the focus of the long range guns, and the Robots can tear them to shreds with the rerolls from Cawl and Protector Protocol.
Having 7 unit placements should see me have a 5/6 average chance to go first against most opponents
Going up against Hordes should be OK with the 72 shots from the Robots plus the massive arsenal of the Knights, and with the range of my shooting I'll get the Alpha on most occasions.
The Priest units will try to stay out of sight until needed, to tie up a Horde unit or try to score a critical objective. Their damage potential is not to be scoffed at either, but I do realize their squishyness before they get a unit kill. (Of course they will get one, every time! )
I've chosen the Icarus Array to deal with flyers, like fast Bikes etc
Going for the Meltas is basically a way to deal with strong Character models before Melee, like 'Nids and Daemons, and those pesky tanks/transports that people bring
The Stormspear rocket pod seems like a good choice due to its armor cracking, but not totally sold on it
Are there any lists you'd see me struggle against? I realize objectives are held based on model count, but I should be able to clear them when needed, and I should be hard to move
Well, this post became longer than expected, but I'd love some Yay's or Nay's so I can make a choice on wether to rework it all or go get me some models
Cephalobeard wrote: This may not be the right place, but have any of you robo-nerds noticed the FW Index for AM includes 40k rules for the Porphyrion?
Willing to bet that may be a fancy addition to Knights and/or Admech.
OH YES. I just ordered one too. Sadly, it is for my 30k Knight household and not my 40k House Raven.
And honestly, with a Crusader being 500+, that Acastus should be comfy at like 750+, which means it isn't getting into a lot of lists easily. Then again, if it is no-brainer good, I might wind up ordering one for House Raven after all!
Subscribers only for the vod though, so I'll be missing it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, I've made a separate thread regarding this list as well, but it seems this thread is the place to be.
I am looking to get into 8th edition, so this will be my first army.
I originally looked to what I really wanted to play, and immediately fell for both AdMech and Imp Knights, so I'm merging the two.
So, I may be heading to the store tomorrow to pick up a few boxes, would love to know if this list COULD work, even though the unit count is low. From the many batreps I've watched, going after more than 2, maybe 3 objectives seems to be the norm, so I'm not that worried in regards to the unit count, but the bonus to being done with deployment first and getting that firtst round is big (as I see it)
So, with this said, here's the list, 1997 points of Admech ft. Imp Knights :
Spoiler:
Cawl Fulgurite Electro-Priests (5)
Fulgurite Electro-Priests (5)
Cybernetica Datasmith
Kastelan Robots (4) triple heavy phosphor blasters
Knight Crusader, Avenger gatling cannon, heavy flamer, heavy stubber, meltagun, Rapid-fire battle cannon, stormspear rocket pod
Keeping the Priests in two units of 5 grants me an extra CP, and I don't really see a negative effect?
The plan for this list is to shoot most things off the table, and wade through the remains with the knights, as they can both shoot, and charge, and if in melee already, they can disengage, shoot and re-charge, if I've read the rules correctly, so its a huge damage potential.
I realize I have to be careful in regards to armor crackers and units with strong Mortal Wound capabilities, but my thinking is, those will be the focus of the long range guns, and the Robots can tear them to shreds with the rerolls from Cawl and Protector Protocol.
Having 7 unit placements should see me have a 5/6 average chance to go first against most opponents
Going up against Hordes should be OK with the 72 shots from the Robots plus the massive arsenal of the Knights, and with the range of my shooting I'll get the Alpha on most occasions.
The Priest units will try to stay out of sight until needed, to tie up a Horde unit or try to score a critical objective. Their damage potential is not to be scoffed at either, but I do realize their squishyness before they get a unit kill. (Of course they will get one, every time! )
I've chosen the Icarus Array to deal with flyers, like fast Bikes etc
Going for the Meltas is basically a way to deal with strong Character models before Melee, like 'Nids and Daemons, and those pesky tanks/transports that people bring
The Stormspear rocket pod seems like a good choice due to its armor cracking, but not totally sold on it
Are there any lists you'd see me struggle against? I realize objectives are held based on model count, but I should be able to clear them when needed, and I should be hard to move
Well, this post became longer than expected, but I'd love some Yay's or Nay's so I can make a choice on wether to rework it all or go get me some models
Regards
Nagorian
Crusade: Battle cannon is over priced, melta is not needed since he's supposed to be in the back field and not 6'' away from anyone, and finally I think iron is better than storm due to having the same amount of inpact on the game and costing less.
You will have problems without Skitarii, dragoons and infiltrators. You need a way to get around and capture objectives. Which is why I go with just 1 knight to have pts to fill those roles.
The Kastelan repulsor field says it reflects shots on a "6+" not a 6. The Shrouldpsalm Canticle increases the save by 1, and the Aegis Protocol also increases it by 1. Does this mean shots are reflected by rolling a 4 or better? I'm probably missing something but what?
okay so a short report on my game versus thousand sons/daemons. My opponent fielded Magnus, Kairos, Scarab Terminators, 2 Rubric Marine Squads, 2 10 Tzangoors, Brimstone Horrors with one blue, 2 Disc Heralds and some stuff. So a lot of smiting. He chose deployment zones which was xxx and he had 4 objectives on his side...ouch. But I had first turn so that worked out. I jumped the knight agressive onto the middle in order to charge his tzangoors. I did shroudpsalm and of course double tapping on the robots. He gave Magnus a 6+ FnP as warlord trait. I unloaded my whole army into magnus who survived thanks to 7 FnP saves. That sucked. And the charge did not went off. He flew Magnus and Kairos up front and warped his terminators in. All smites went into the knight who survived with 7 HP but went down in close combat vs magnus. I killed Magnus in the second round as well as a couple of tzangoors and the terminators. He casted +1t on kairos due to his lucky roles for that boon and smited away. basically it was a shoot off from my side. Since T8 on Kairos just sucked i shot my bullets at everything else and thinned down his lines. In round 3 I finally remembered that i got my infiltrators in reserve and dropped them in the backfield of my opponent to secure a objective for 3 points. After Kairos did not buff himself 1t I unloaded everything into him and left hin on 1 wound. It went to round 6. I killed Kairos , Rubrics, Tzangoors etc and in round 7 he called the game since it would have been a tabling. I lost: 2 units of vanguard, 2 dragoons, 3 more vanguard and the knight, won 15-5.
I still don't like the performance of the Dragoons but the rest was great although the TPD did basically nothing but block the drop of the terminators and hold an objective for about 7 rounds. All in all I shouldn't have jumped so aggressive with the knight but it was worth it. sure, loosing him round 1 sucks but on the other hand that dude sucked up so much damage that otherwise would have hit the rest of the army. can't complain.
Mass smiting just pisses me off. They scratch the D and "Invent" this crap -.-
You don't choose the deployment zone, you roll for it. Even the game testers missed that bit of the rules. Read next to the maps.
You can't go double dakka mode until turn 2.
Smites are amazing except for the fact that they are unflavorful. You just have to get used to them. Positioning is even more important now. D was stupid
rvd1ofakind wrote: You don't choose the deployment zone, you roll for it. Even the game testers missed that bit of the rules. Read next to the maps.
You can't go double dakka mode until turn 2.
Smites are amazing except for the fact that they are unflavorful. You just have to get used to them. Positioning is even more important now. D was stupid
really missed that part on rolling for deplyoment. Thanks.
Why can't I go double dakka in round one? It states I can switch protocols at the start of the movement phase. Edit: From the start of the next battle round. Got it. Thanks as well.
I think smite is as dumb as D but thats caused by the mortal wounds mechanic. Which I think is just lazy design.
So, rules question : The Kastelan robots reflects shooting attacks when you roll a 6+
The Aegis Protocol does not lower the save to 4+, but you add 1 to your armor and invuln throws, so, under Aegis, if I roll 5's on my invuln and then add 1, they become 6'es and reflects?
Nagorian wrote: So, rules question : The Kastelan robots reflects shooting attacks when you roll a 6+
The Aegis Protocol does not lower the save to 4+, but you add 1 to your armor and invuln throws, so, under Aegis, if I roll 5's on my invuln and then add 1, they become 6'es and reflects?
4's become 5's, 5's become 6's and 6's become 7's
Interesting and yes, it should work that way. Comparing it with supercharged plasma: If I shoot onto a unit that that gives -1 on my to hit roles, a role of 1 and 2 slays the model.
Nagorian wrote: So, rules question : The Kastelan robots reflects shooting attacks when you roll a 6+
The Aegis Protocol does not lower the save to 4+, but you add 1 to your armor and invuln throws, so, under Aegis, if I roll 5's on my invuln and then add 1, they become 6'es and reflects?
4's become 5's, 5's become 6's and 6's become 7's
Interesting and yes, it should work that way. Comparing it with supercharged plasma: If I shoot onto a unit that that gives -1 on my to hit roles, a role of 1 and 2 slays the model.
Which is why we should never supercharge without an unspent CP and an available reroll
Bit late to the leak party due to a business trip. Lots of cool stuff!
I am super glad that Skitarii and CM are now one, big happy <Forge World> family; sad that the Knights got left out, but I guess that's fair. Oh, except Cawl. But it's okay, we can all just say that we're from Mars. >_>
Ironstriders got a bit slower (relative to everyone else in 7th), but they seem to hit a lot harder and take more hits as well. TL Lascannon Ballistarii seem to be the ideal setup for tank hunters. And Taser Dragoons seem to be Primaris killers; though if I understand this correctly, it increases HITS to 3, so we're talking 6 damage here? The Jezzail Dragoons also seem okay for sniping characters, but they don't seem to be as crazy in this edition.
Crawlers are terrifying. Given how many things I have seen that Fly, Icarus Array might just be the default choice.
I am currently thinking Outrider Detachment with numerous small units of Dragoons, say 4 units of 2 or 3 units of 3. How worried should I be about friendly Explode? (Because I definitely think the opponent would worry.)
EDIT: Does anyone have a working spreadsheet? I just realized that it would probably be a bit easier than going through this by hand.
Suzuteo wrote: Bit late to the leak party due to a business trip. Lots of cool stuff!
I am super glad that Skitarii and CM are now one, big happy <Forge World> family; sad that the Knights got left out, but I guess that's fair. Oh, except Cawl. But it's okay, we can all just say that we're from Mars. >_>
Ironstriders got a bit slower (relative to everyone else in 7th), but they seem to hit a lot harder and take more hits as well. TL Lascannon Ballistarii seem to be the ideal setup for tank hunters. And Taser Dragoons seem to be Primaris killers; though if I understand this correctly, it increases HITS to 3, so we're talking 6 damage here? The Jezzail Dragoons also seem okay for sniping characters, but they don't seem to be as crazy in this edition.
Crawlers are terrifying. Given how many things I have seen that Fly, Icarus Array might just be the default choice.
I am currently thinking Outrider Detachment with numerous small units of Dragoons, say 4 units of 2 or 3 units of 3. How worried should I be about friendly Explode? (Because I definitely think the opponent would worry.)
EDIT: Does anyone have a working spreadsheet? I just realized that it would probably be a bit easier than going through this by hand.
Nagorian wrote: So, rules question : The Kastelan robots reflects shooting attacks when you roll a 6+
The Aegis Protocol does not lower the save to 4+, but you add 1 to your armor and invuln throws, so, under Aegis, if I roll 5's on my invuln and then add 1, they become 6'es and reflects?
4's become 5's, 5's become 6's and 6's become 7's
Interesting and yes, it should work that way. Comparing it with supercharged plasma: If I shoot onto a unit that that gives -1 on my to hit roles, a role of 1 and 2 slays the model.
That didn't even occur to me. Wow, the Robots really are just one of our best units now.
Cephalobeard wrote: This may not be the right place, but have any of you robo-nerds noticed the FW Index for AM includes 40k rules for the Porphyrion?
Willing to bet that may be a fancy addition to Knights and/or Admech.
Where did you see their Index?
I feel like I've missed something.
The Chaos one for sure has a Renegade Acastus, so that will be out soon (6/17) and give us a fair idea of what to expect. I figure it will be in the next Imperial one after the Marine one, for sure.
Cephalobeard wrote: This may not be the right place, but have any of you robo-nerds noticed the FW Index for AM includes 40k rules for the Porphyrion?
Willing to bet that may be a fancy addition to Knights and/or Admech.
Where did you see their Index?
I feel like I've missed something.
The Chaos one for sure has a Renegade Acastus, so that will be out soon (6/17) and give us a fair idea of what to expect. I figure it will be in the next Imperial one after the Marine one, for sure.
It's in with the Astra Militarum one; with all the FW Knights.
Cephalobeard wrote: This may not be the right place, but have any of you robo-nerds noticed the FW Index for AM includes 40k rules for the Porphyrion?
Willing to bet that may be a fancy addition to Knights and/or Admech.
Where did you see their Index?
I feel like I've missed something.
The Chaos one for sure has a Renegade Acastus, so that will be out soon (6/17) and give us a fair idea of what to expect. I figure it will be in the next Imperial one after the Marine one, for sure.
It's in with the Astra Militarum one; with all the FW Knights.
Which hasn't been teased yet or anything that I am aware of. Do you have some links for us?
Yeah, you can't pre-order them yet... they're pending (listed as out-of-stock on the FW site... but they just aren't available yet). Look like paperbacks... 4 books, at a very reasonable price (15 pounds). Marines/Chaos/Other Imps/Xenos.
From the promo e-mail...
Xenos and Astra Militarum On the way later this month are two more Index books to complete the set. Index: Xenos contains rules for Aeldari of all types, Orks, Necrons, T'au Empire and Tyranids, while the vast forces of the Astra Militarum, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Titan Legions are covered in Index: Forces of the Astra Millitarum
Cephalobeard wrote: This may not be the right place, but have any of you robo-nerds noticed the FW Index for AM includes 40k rules for the Porphyrion?
Willing to bet that may be a fancy addition to Knights and/or Admech.
Where did you see their Index?
I feel like I've missed something.
The Chaos one for sure has a Renegade Acastus, so that will be out soon (6/17) and give us a fair idea of what to expect. I figure it will be in the next Imperial one after the Marine one, for sure.
It's in with the Astra Militarum one; with all the FW Knights.
Which hasn't been teased yet or anything that I am aware of. Do you have some links for us?
The indexes for their contents are literally shown on the forgeworld website.
Nagorian wrote: So, rules question : The Kastelan robots reflects shooting attacks when you roll a 6+
The Aegis Protocol does not lower the save to 4+, but you add 1 to your armor and invuln throws, so, under Aegis, if I roll 5's on my invuln and then add 1, they become 6'es and reflects?
4's become 5's, 5's become 6's and 6's become 7's
Interesting and yes, it should work that way. Comparing it with supercharged plasma: If I shoot onto a unit that that gives -1 on my to hit roles, a role of 1 and 2 slays the model.
I think you are wrong on the plasma. The rule says a to hit roll of one. So 2 -1 is dead, 1 - 1 is zero and you are fine. The rule doesn't say one or less. The wrinkle is with rerolls of 1 wouldn't help much. Most guys are gonna play with natural ones causing gets hot like prior editions. End result is you have a 1/6 chance of dying regardless.
Wow, that is a must- buy for me. Will be curious to see how they treat the Magaera, Atropos, and Styrix. Those are all ones I would consider adding to my AdMech forces.
Hope they keep the Ionic Flare as a solid upgrade to the normal shield. And I hope they make the Lightning gun worthwhile.
So I've run a handful of 1k games and 2 2k games so far. Before reading this thread I ended up with a list very similar to the ones going around right now on my own, which leads me to believe I'm on the right track!
Datasmith 5x Sicarian Infiltrators with Blasters and Taser Goads 5x Sicarian Infiltrators with Blasters and Taser Goads
Icarus Array Onager Dunecrawler Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler 2x Kastelan with full Phosphor
Ironstrider Ballistarii with Twin Lascannons
Knight Crusader, Avenger Gatling, Thermal, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber
The Knight and the Neutron Laser crawler have been amazing so far. In two different games my opponent has gotten the Neutron Laser crawler down to 3-4 wounds but was unable to finish it off. By the end of the game it was back up to 9-10 again with their heavy armor crackers gone. Repairing has been extremely solid and something I'll even spend CP to reroll.
The icarus crawler has been alright, if I didn't have the knight he would be another neutron (and still considering that change regardless).
I've really enjoyed having the Infiltrators too. They don't always get a ton of work done, but they do what the rest of the faction has trouble doing in getting to weird or far off places. I scored several VPs by infiltrating right onto the objective I happened to roll in Maelstrom games. These guys wont' be coming out of the list any time soon.
Kastelans are amazing once setup into shooting protocols, but do tend to die easier than I'd like, which is probably a good thing with the amount of offense they spit out. If I didn't have the knight, i'd easily have 2 more of these.
I'm iffy about the Ironstrider. On one hand 2 lascannon shots is really good, and on the other hand it's not immune to the -1 penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. It's a mobile platform that I don't want to move...
The Arquebus I'm close to removing from my list. They havn't contributed anything meaningful yet in the 6 or so games I've played them in. I'd like to try them vs guard though as sniping out commisars seems good.
The Knight, as others have said, is great. Dies in melee to scary things but otherwise a deadly shooting platform.
It seems that there are some units that are a must. Onager with icarus, onager with neutron, 2 tripple hpc kastelan, cawl, a tpd (because command points -.-) and at least one unit of infiltrators.
Arquebusses are way to expensive...hated them in 7th and this continues in 8th. Rangers just suck -.-
I bought 2 more kastelan maniples and 2 units of electro priests to try them as counterchargers to finish off units and become raid bosses. The 6 kastelans are for when I can't/don't want to use crusadet. Ironstriders are both weird right now.
Are you sure arc is better than a stubber on onager or smthn?
Played a game of 1000 pts against the Primaris from the Dark Imperium Starter box today so that another player could have a taste of 8th. Had 5 Vanguards (one plasma, one Phosphor pistol + Taser Goad), 5 Vanguards (Arc maul and pistol), 5 Rangers with Omnispex and two Arquebii, 1 Dragoon with Lance, 2 Kastellans with twin blasters + Flamer, TPD, 1 Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser and two Stubbers.
This time I'd like to underline that my snipers were USEFUL. Last game they didn't do a single thing and here on first turn they reduce the Warlord to 1W and finish off another Character later. I'll keep testing them in different ways. The Robots were awesome as ever, they kept their positions in Protector protocol and caused quite a few casualties. Datasmith repaired twice (forgot it twice too) and healed 3W to one Kastelan. The Dragoon charged a 3 man Hellblaster squad, killed two, got killed by the Warlord's heroic intervention, exploded, killed the lord and reduced the Hellblaster survivor to 1W. After that he blew up one of my Robots so my Datasmith and other Robot were hurt, karma strike haha
Dunecrawler was good, but only had Infantry to shoot at, nevertheless he did his part. One of the Vanguard squads led a suicide run against the few last Primaris, And with three guys I shot two and destroyed another in CC with two Arc Maul hits (first time I kill something in CC with Vanguards tbh), so happily surprised about them, they're really good against Primaris because of the 2 Damage on 6's to Wound.
I learned a bit more about how to play my army in 8th, and learned that the Primaris are resilient enough, at least in small games like that.
tman3257 wrote: So I've run a handful of 1k games and 2 2k games so far. Before reading this thread I ended up with a list very similar to the ones going around right now on my own, which leads me to believe I'm on the right track!
Datasmith
5x Sicarian Infiltrators with Blasters and Taser Goads
5x Sicarian Infiltrators with Blasters and Taser Goads
Icarus Array Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler
2x Kastelan with full Phosphor
Ironstrider Ballistarii with Twin Lascannons
Knight Crusader, Avenger Gatling, Thermal, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber
The Knight and the Neutron Laser crawler have been amazing so far. In two different games my opponent has gotten the Neutron Laser crawler down to 3-4 wounds but was unable to finish it off. By the end of the game it was back up to 9-10 again with their heavy armor crackers gone. Repairing has been extremely solid and something I'll even spend CP to reroll.
The icarus crawler has been alright, if I didn't have the knight he would be another neutron (and still considering that change regardless).
I've really enjoyed having the Infiltrators too. They don't always get a ton of work done, but they do what the rest of the faction has trouble doing in getting to weird or far off places. I scored several VPs by infiltrating right onto the objective I happened to roll in Maelstrom games. These guys wont' be coming out of the list any time soon.
Kastelans are amazing once setup into shooting protocols, but do tend to die easier than I'd like, which is probably a good thing with the amount of offense they spit out. If I didn't have the knight, i'd easily have 2 more of these.
I'm iffy about the Ironstrider. On one hand 2 lascannon shots is really good, and on the other hand it's not immune to the -1 penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. It's a mobile platform that I don't want to move...
The Arquebus I'm close to removing from my list. They havn't contributed anything meaningful yet in the 6 or so games I've played them in. I'd like to try them vs guard though as sniping out commisars seems good.
The Knight, as others have said, is great. Dies in melee to scary things but otherwise a deadly shooting platform.
Blasters & Goads the consensus? I am going to start building my Sicarians and I don't think I can magnetize those tiny joints (or want to, honestly).
I am actually a tad annoyed that the bloody phosphor robots remain as überunit. The models are absolutely hideous, and the shooty build looks even stupider than the melee build.
I guess the burning questions I have after reading all these battle reports concern the Heavy Support slots. They seem to be our strongest slot by far, so we may just want to build lists around them as a core, with the requirements of your detachment intended to maximize the strengths or minimize the weaknesses of each slot.
So some brainstorming questions:
Are Neutron Crawler, Icarus Crawler, and Phosphor Kastelan Robots the strongest general performers in the Heavy Support slot?
What area do these models excel in?
To what extent can a Knight Crusader substitute for these units?
What critical weaknesses need to be shored up, and what units shore these weaknesses up the most?
If we had only 2 slots or even only 3 slots, which would be taken?
Neutron Crawler - Anti Vehicle/MC - any target with a large amount of wounds and a high toughness
Icarrus Crawler - All around anti anything with keyword "Fly" decent amount of shots and decent strength and AP Phosphor Kastelans - Anti Horde
Knight Crusader - Anti everything
Weak to assault, low body count for objective holding and screening.
Cheap troops, vanguard mostly seem to be the best choice, Fulgurite Priests for anti-charge screening
Right. I think that seems to be how Heavy Support is shaping up.
I am thinking of going with the Battalion detachment and its 3 Heavy Support slots, and a mix of one unit of 2-4 Kastelan Robots (with a Datasmith) and two Icarus Crawlers would form the core, supplemented by a Knight Crusader with RFBC/AGC.
On that note, how do we feel about the Thermal Cannon? Seems like it has a strict use case now. Knight Errants actually seem more appealing than Paladins and Wardens if you want something with a giant chainsword.
I am actually thinking minimum Vanguard units with Arc Rifles and Dragoons to accomplish objective holding and screening. Fulgurite Electro-Priests, although they are improved, are too slow to fulfill any role that the Vanguard or even Infiltrators don't handle already. At best, they are a supplement to the former.
Unit Summaries are up. Please tell me if they need improvement, which they most certainly do. Content mostly taken from comments in this thread, battle reports, and my personal reading of the Index.
Don't see any fault with them, maybe Cawl, cause Mars bites...
Kastellan Robots -
Our best unit. Protector Protocol lets them double-tap their weapons, which is incredibly powerful with triple Heavy Phosphor, which is the optimal loadout. Take squads of two, position them properly, and become ze artillery. Always remember your Datasmith hanger-on to make them into immobile death machines. Protect these guys, because they're your main offensive firepower. The repulsor grids are nice, and tack on a little bit more value, but don't expect them to do too much good.
Guess I know what I'm requesting for Father's Day...
Heavy Support - 480 1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 540
Lord of War - 540 Knight Crusader - 1x Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber
Total: 1987 points 6 Command
We have the self-healing, infantry-chewing Cawl + TDP + 2x Kastelan unit that everyone has been raving about. Arc Rifle Vanguard units screen the core, and Icarus Dunecrawlers lock mobile flying elements such as battlesuits and jetbikes out. Three small units of Sydonian Dragoons act as objective grabbers and complement the rest of the force as an assault component; super disappointed that we don't get 14" move of bikes though. Finally, a Knight Crusader to control a large swath of the board; he does a bit of everything.
Feedback? Remember, I have 13 points to spare. Haha.
Verviedi wrote: Unit Summaries are up. Please tell me if they need improvement, which they most certainly do. Content mostly taken from comments in this thread, battle reports, and my personal reading of the Index.
Adding things:
Cawl - Use the best canticles first, then roll and try to get those again. You get a choice of 3 so you'll probably get something good.
Dominus - Not a great HQ, mostly taking him as a HQ tax for more CP. You can't shoot Macrostubber and another gun at the same turn. Probably better to go Serpenta, unless you plan on getting in close combat, which is possible since you might want him to escort vanguard forward to objectives.
Vanguard - you should always take 5-man squads instead of 10-man
1. Free alpha
2. Less losses from morale
3. More durable (20 shots fired that cause 10 casualties will always kill a 10 man unit. But 20 shots fired at 2 five man units(split by 10 shots) that cause 10 casualties won't always do that since the first 10 can cause 7 to 5 and the other 10 can cause 3. So 2 would remain.
4. Less bodies, more special weapons if that's your jam.
5. Utility - you can split them up if you want
6. Taking up more space, helping to fill out detachment requirements with less pts
7. If positioned properly, will require 2 charges instead of just one.
Infiltrators - our only deepstrike, as an army with no transports - that's invaluable unless you plan on allying some other deep strikers in
Dragoons - Suprisingly durable due to the -1 to hit. Especially against "failed to hit re-rolls" since if the opponent rolls within his BS, he can't re-roll and only THEN you apply the -1 modifier. The taser lances are really weird though, with no AP and 2 damage, it wants to fight against multiple wound units with 6+ or worse armour save or the ones that rely on invulnerable saves...
Kastelans - they become super dakka only on turn 2. Repulsor grids with Aegis mode (+1) reflect shots on 5+ which is something to keep in mind.
Side note: if you can somehow get a +1 to hit - the plasma guns never overheat due to current rules. This might get FAQd
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: So I am thinking about something like this:
Heavy Support - 480 1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 540
Lord of War - 540 Knight Crusader
Total: 1987 points 6 Command
We have the self-healing, infantry-chewing Cawl + TDP + 2x Kastelan unit that everyone has been raving about. Arc Rifle Vanguard units screen the core, and Icarus Dunecrawlers lock mobile flying elements such as battlesuits and jetbikes out. Three small units of Sydonian Dragoons act as objective grabbers and complement the rest of the force as an assault component; super disappointed that we don't get 14" move of bikes though. Finally, a Knight Crusader to control a large swath of the board; he does a bit of everything.
Feedback? Remember, I have 13 points to spare. Haha.
Had my first 8th game with Ad Mech tonight. General thoughts:
- Phosphor kastellans are great but each loss is felt badly. only brought 2 and they die like most things in 8th quicker than you'd think. Reflecting mortal wounds is fun but fairly ineffective. Lascannons and missile launchers are really good against these guys and a 4+ invul only protects so much.
- Breachers are just worthless. Low shot volume and usual toughness 7 on vehicles leaves me wondering what use they are how.
- Grav destroyers are still okay if a bit pricey. They have enough volume of shots and multi damage that will keep at least one unit in my lists. Brutal against things like termies or primaris marines.
- Canticles rock! Shroudsalm is a god send and Cawls ability really helps.
- Neutron ongar did far less damage to vehicles than I was hoping. Against guard pretty much all their vehicles, even cheap ones like chimeras, are 10 wounds and it took two onagars to really hurt an enemy vehicle per round. Not bad just wasn't the point and shoot I was hoping for.
- Vanguard are great but bring lots of msu units because they die quick.
- CC is a real Achilles heel. Rustalkers and infiltrators just bounce off enemies. Priests of both variety are good but are fragile to shooting. Need some thoughts here moving forward.
buddha wrote: Had my first 8th game with As Much tonight. General thoughts:
- Grav destroyers are still okay if a bit pricey. They have enough volume of shots and multi damage that will keep at least one unit in my lists. Brutal against things like termies or primaris marines.
- Neutron ongar did far less damage to vehicles than I was hoping. Against guard pretty much all their vehicles, even cheap ones like chimeras, are 10 wounds and it took two onagars to really hurt an enemy vehicle per round. Not bad just wasn't the point and shoot I was hoping for.
- CC is a real Achilles heel. Rustalkers and infiltrators just bounce off enemies. Priests of both variety are good but are fragile to shooting. Need some thoughts here moving forward.
1 and 3 are connected. Since you use so many points on 3 models that generally do a worse job than Kastelans and Onagers and ALSO need to be protected, you might as well go more vanguard to defend better or more Kastelans/Onagers to dakka and survive better.
On 2, something to think about is that you, IMO, should use CP to re-roll bad rolls here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: Added! Thank you. I'll work on this a bit more after I recharge.
Oh, you missed Servitors - herp derp.
Servitors - a not great shooting unit with 2 overpriced pre-equiped melee weapons. Called the worst unit by the Frontline testers.
My Crusader uses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber. I hope that his points make up for a missing Neutron Crawler and Phosphor Kastelan.
I really do think that Vanguard and Dragoons have a stronger role to play in this 8th edition than the last one. As stated in the OP, we're an artillery army now, and that means you need mobile skirmishers, deterrents to CC, and something to occupy the ground that your artillery is controlling.
Suzuteo wrote: My Crusader uses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber. I hope that his points make up for a missing Neutron Crawler and Phosphor Kastelan.
I really do think that Vanguard and Dragoons have a stronger role to play in this 8th edition than the last one. As stated in the OP, we're an artillery army now, and that means you need mobile skirmishers, deterrents to CC, and something to occupy the ground that your artillery is controlling.
They might have a stronger role but they've been nerfed in general.
We really have to see how it goes with Maelstrom. I have a feeling that we might have to run 2 squads of infiltrators or some allies.
also RBC is overpriced, IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think for now my core is going to be:
+3 CP Cawl 250pts
Dominus Serpenta(since you can't shoot stubber along with another weapon) 139pts
5 rangers pts
5 vanguard pts
5 vanguard 50pts
5 infiltrators (Tasers) 130pts
Datasmith 52pts
Balistarii Lascannon 95pts
2 dakkastelans(good name for them IMO :p) 220 pts
onager Icarus 130
onager neutron 143
For a total of 1309 pts.
And then work from there. Here are 3 easy 2000 pts lists with no allies
1. Core + electro + dakkastelans 7 fulgurites
5 infiltrators (taser)
4 more dakkastelans in the same unit (do whatever it takes to not get them charged, though TBH noone want to eat 54 to 108 overwatch shots.
2. Core + stuff to get +9 CP dominus serpenta
5 rangers
5 vanguard
5 vanguard
5 fulgurites
1 balistarii lascannon
1 dragoon
1 onager neutron stubber
+1 stubber on the icarus onager
They might have a stronger role but they've been nerfed in general.
We really have to see how it goes with Maelstrom. I have a feeling that we might have to run 2 squads of infiltrators or some allies.
also RBC is overpriced, IMO.
I don't think Dragoons were nerfed. They got buffed and received a corresponding points increase.
I mean, here's what I see:
+Now always gets the +3 Strength bonus that you used to only get from charging
+Got T6 and W6, which is amazing relative to AV11 and W2
+Incense got buffed; now stops Overwatch and screws with rerolls (Question: Does Incense stop something like taser as well?)
=Still lacks AP, but still hits like a truck (three S8 D2 attacks that triple on a 6!)
-Got slower relative to bikes; bikes were 33% faster, now they're 40% faster
-Got more expensive relative to tournament standard; we now use 8.1% more points, but Dragoons cost 51% more
But again, the important thing is that we are an artillery army, and we need something that can quickly move around the map to secure objectives and to create distance for our artillery to operate.
I agree that RFBC is overpriced now, especially since the Crusader will not benefit from Canticles. However, I don't think Thermal Cannon is as good a fit unless you have a chainsword.
They might have a stronger role but they've been nerfed in general.
We really have to see how it goes with Maelstrom. I have a feeling that we might have to run 2 squads of infiltrators or some allies.
also RBC is overpriced, IMO.
I don't think Dragoons were nerfed. They got buffed and received a corresponding points increase.
I mean, here's what I see:
+Now always gets the +3 Strength bonus that you used to only get from charging
+Got T6 and W6, which is amazing relative to AV11 and W2
+Incense got buffed; now stops Overwatch and screws with rerolls
=Still lacks AP, but still hits like a truck (three S8 D2 attacks that triple on a 6!)
-Got slower relative to bikes; bikes were 33% faster, now they're 40% faster
-Got more expensive relative to tournament standard; we now use 8.1% more points, but Dragoons cost 51% more
But again, the important thing is that we are an artillery army, and we need something that can quickly move around the map to secure objectives and to create distance for our artillery to operate.
I agree that RFBC is overpriced now, especially since the Crusader will not benefit from Canticles. However, I don't think Thermal Cannon is as good a fit unless you have a chainsword.
Doesn't stop overwatch. It's a fixed "hit on 6" thing that only gets altered by rules that have the word "OVERWATCH" in them. Confirmed by testers.
They are also slower in terms of running and charging too.
Like I said, the most annoying thing is that the weapon is really weird. It's good against mutli-wound invul saves and multi-wound no saves. Which are few and far in-between. And even if the opponent has some, he'll make it a PITA for your dragoons to actually charge them.
And I still use them. But I doubt they're "core". But time will tell...
Thermal and Rapidfire comparison
The fact that it has some positioning shananigans you can do where it hits harder in some situations (would you really fire that at IG troops?) makes Thermal better IMO. Obviously I'd take Rapid if it was the same price
Suzuteo wrote: [spoiler]My Crusader uses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber. I hope that his points make up for a missing Neutron Crawler and Phosphor Kastelan.
I really do think that Vanguard and Dragoons have a stronger role to play in this 8th edition than the last one. As stated in the OP, we're an artillery army now, and that means you need mobile skirmishers, deterrents to CC, and something to occupy the ground that your artillery is controlling.
They might have a stronger role but they've been nerfed in general.
We really have to see how it goes with Maelstrom. I have a feeling that we might have to run 2 squads of infiltrators or some allies.
also RBC is overpriced, IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think for now my core is going to be:
+3 CP Cawl 250pts
Dominus Serpenta(since you can't shoot stubber along with another weapon) 139pts
5 rangers pts
5 vanguard pts
5 vanguard 50pts
5 infiltrators (Tasers) 130pts
Datasmith 52pts
Balistarii Lascannon 95pts
2 dakkastelans(good name for them IMO :p) 220 pts
onager Icarus 130
onager neutron 143
For a total of 1309 pts.
And then work from there. Here are 3 easy 2000 pts lists with no allies
1. Core + electro + dakkastelans 7 fulgurites
5 infiltrators (taser)
4 more dakkastelans in the same unit (do whatever it takes to not get them charged, though TBH noone want to eat 54 to 108 overwatch shots.
2. Core + stuff to get +9 CP dominus serpenta
5 rangers
5 vanguard
5 vanguard
5 fulgurites
1 balistarii lascannon
1 dragoon
1 onager neutron stubber
+1 stubber on the icarus onager
I'm still not 100% sure, but you need objective campers on ruins top floor and they're good for that.
Might go pure vanguard and 1 rangers 5 vanguard at 9CP if practice says otherwise
If you want to run some Arquebii Rangers are better than Vanguards for that (better range from the other weapons). I'll keep trying the Arquebii, I'm sure they have potential. I wanted to do two 1 Arquebus squads to cover each corner of the terrain but filling two slots with Rangers is somewhat uncomfortable. Vanguards excel against 2 Wounds models due to saturation and the change to Radioactive. My opponent from yesterday was surprised when I killed some of his Primaris in one shot with my 10 points dudes. As for escorting them, should we try to put the Dominus in front of them to bait the shots at him ? Looks risky, he's still only 5 Wounds on T4. As for his weapons, I can see the Eradication Ray being useful since most of the time I got enemies really close to me, it could help vaporize some of them.
Decided to sell my Kataphron Destroyers, they're expensive, I don't like the models and I could place more trusty Vanguards in their place for a third of their price with some special weapons. Going to run a full Arc squad (Pistol, Maul and 2 Rifles), a Plasma squad (2 Plasma, Phosphor pistol, Taser Goad, Omnispex) and a vanilla one (full Radium, Radium pistol and Power Sword). Still thinking of placing ten guys in the Plasma squad, they'll accompany my Dominus who gives them rerolls and +1 Ld with the Warlord trait.
With time I'll buy a Start Collecting: Militarum Tempestus to get some fast units and deep-strikers. I'm starting to think Canticles are not that useful, at least when I roll for them. I think it's worded so as to give you a choice between picking them and rolling them, but that you can't do both.
Aaranis wrote: I'm starting to think Canticles are not that useful, at least when I roll for them. I think it's worded so as to give you a choice between picking them and rolling them, but that you can't do both.
At the start of each battle round, pick which Canticle of ......... Alternatively you can randomly determine which canticle....
If you couldn't pick and roll in the same game, I think it either would've been stated somewhere in the rule OR the choice to roll or pick should be written before the "At the start of each".
So I'll keep cherry picking and then rolling later until it gets FAQd
And I myself love canticles. No more hiding in terrain. Just stand in the open(within reason) and unload with the widest LoS possible
On Knights, Battle Cannon is about 1.5 times better than Thermal Cannon at damage applied to the enemy from T4 to T8 regardless of saves, on average... And that's within 18", outside, it's not even close, over double...
For my part I'm reading the full Index 2: Imperium book as it was leaked in the general V8 Thread over in News, and I'm trying to think of a list with the units I own and the ones I want from the Imperium. But there's a detail that's been bogging me down:
. Time to do a ton of math all over again.
