Let's talk about Dark Angels in the brand new Warhammer 40k! They're in this Index: http://imgur.com/a/KdV3Q
I'll start with a review of what's in my collection!
Spoiler:
UNITS that are now much better and i will field:
* Deathwing Knights are the stars of the faction. They effectively pay 18 points for a mace that's generally better than a Thunder Hammer, and Storm Shields keep them on the table.
* Belial and a Deathwing Ancient are the best characters to join Deathwing Knights, nearly doubling their damage output.
* But if mobility isn't a factor, Asmodai is the star buffing HQ, giving all Dark Angels infantry the same bonuses Belial and the Ancient give the Deathwing. The +1 Attack even stacks! And bonus -1 Leadership to enemies.
* Azreal is probably the best Chapter Master (who isn't also a Primarch.) He's best deployed managing a parking lot in the backfield. Park him next to Dreadnoughts (including Venerable and Mortis!), Razorbacks, Predators, etc. Dark Angels in his 6" bubble re-roll misses and are protected by the 4++. See this recent post: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/727176.page#9478048
* Speaking of, Dreadnoughts are excellent shooting weapon platforms. 8 Wounds is tough but doesn't degrade. Note that upgrading to a Venerable is worth the premium cost. And consider a Forgeworld Mortis for all the Lascannons.
* Scouts are still an incredible value. Conscripts wish they could deploy 9" away from enemies.
* The Darkshroud's -1 to hit bubble is even better than it first sounds. It effectively makes nearby Dark Angels 1/3 more durable against BS 4+ shooting and 25% more durable against 3+ shooting. A must for any parking lot or Ravenwing army.
UNITS i want to playtest and give a chance:
* Ravenwing still offer mobility, we'll see how valuable that is in new missions. Sammeal is good in this context.
* Dark Angel librarians must use Interromancy which is not as good as Librarius (which I think is OP). But Interromancy can help against powerful units like Knights. ditto Ezekiel who finally gets an invulnerable save. needs playtesting.
* Deathwing Terminators are not as good as Deathwing Knights and you're not gonna convince me otherwise. You're paying for those power fists so they must reach melee to make their points back, and Knights do Melee better. No, Storm bolters and assault cannons do not make them as good: other units can shoot hoards more efficiently (hint: razorbacks and dreads.)
* Missile Launchers are now very good, and Devastator Squads may be the best way to field them, but they need range and cover for protection.
* Assault Squads and Company veterans are worth considering. A veteran with two free chainswords has 4 Attacks!
* land raider doesn't have a clear advantage over Rhinos or razorbacks now, and if i want to park a monster on an objective i'll bring a Knight. The lascannon Land Raider may still may have a place. The Crusader is not enough of a threat once empty, and the Redeemer will find itself unable to shoot when mooks run up and tag it.
* Not yet sure how valuable flyers are, but they probably have a niche somewhere.
UNITS that will stay on the shelf:
* tactical squads still worse than scouts unless I'm totally missing the mark on transports. I mean they may compliment razorbacks if they're as good as i think?
* Predators?? like razorbacks but without transport and much more expensive for no good reason.
* Inceptors, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are all too expensive for now, but could fill broad niches with points decreases.
* land speeders: 85 points is 20 too many, compare to razorback or dreadnought value.
* dreadnoughts with short-range weapons can't ride in normal drop pods, and the Forgeworld pods are too expensive.
* who would i even want to put in a drop pod??
* The -1 To Hit when moving with Heavy weapons means the Attack Bike can't leverage its mobility. Ditto the Landspeeders.
* interrogator-chaplains not worth premium over chaplains (except Asmodai who's incredible.)
What am I wrong about? I'll try to update this OP if we reach some consensus.
labmouse42 wrote: I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.
Spoiler:
Why Deathwing?
There are a few reasons the deathwing army is the best 'terminator' army IMHO. It is not the cheapest -- that goes to CSM terminators. Deathwatch terminators can bring a lot more firepower by stacking on 3 heavy weapons per 5 terminators.
Deathwing shines in it's ability to benefit from fantastic auras, and the ability to mix and match weapons in it's deathwing squads. Deathwing knights are the superior assault terminator unit.
Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round. Even more marines are prone to failing badly given those odds, where deathwing just don't care.
The way 8th edition was made, there is an advantage to running large units. You can already split fire, you reduce your drops, and you make it harder to give up first blood.
Large units can also increase your footprint, making it easier to take advantage of auras.
Azrael
This guy is amazing for his buff auras. Not many units give reroll all hits. First glance shows that Pedro and Marneus are the only others.
Azrael also gives a 4++ to all models near him. This is amazing with dreads. The reason for this is that most weapons that can hurt the T7 at range have a greater rend than a -1.
Take an enemy LC. Instead of saving on a 6+, the dread has a 4+ to make the save, greatly increasing it's overall durability.
This does not help against massive small arms fire, like conscripts blobs shooting at the dread, but those are not the big threat to the dread -- multi-wound weapons are.
As an added bonus, Azrael is a beatstick. Swinging 5 times at STR 6, with -3 rend and D3 wounds is enough to make even daemon princes sweat.
He also comes with a combi-plas, just because he was not good enough by himself.
Overall, this guy is a 'must have' more many builds.
Belial
What I like about Belial is that he gives all Deathwing rerolls 'to hit'. If you are running lots of terminators or Librarians it's a nice advantage.
His Sword of Silence is also much better than it appears at first glance. It will be hitting 35/36 of the time. It also wounds non-vehicles on a 2+, making it great against enemy terminators, great daemons, etc. The -3 rend and 2 wounds is rock solid, meaning that Belial can pretty consistently throw wounds on a target.
Belial can also drop in with some knights if you are wanting to deep strike an assault force behind enemy lines.
Overall, he's a good choice. IMHO, Azrael is just a little better for only 40 more points -- but Belial is not a bad choice at all.
Asmodai & Deathwing Ancient
This guys are force multipliers if you are running deathwing units. Having both of them plus Belial/Azrael means that your deathwing become close combat monsters.
I showed some of the math earlier -- 9 powerfists/chainfists smashing with 4 attacks each hitting 75% of the time will wreck face. This is what it will do against a knight, for example.
(3/4 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 36 attacks * 2 wounds per attack = 22.5 wounds done. The power sword should pluck off another .61 of a wound.
Deathwing Apothecary
This guy runs you 75 points, and you can use him to restore 50 points deathwing models 50% of the time.
He will likely have ~4 turns to be effective in a game. (You might go first, you might not have any models to revive, etc)
This means you can expect him to bring back ~100 points of deathwing models. Since they come back at 1 wound it's not as good, but it's still not bad.
Effectively, this guy will pay for himself in most games, making the model effectively free.
Deathwing Champion
I'm not sold on this guy. If he is by the attack buffs, he's getting 7 attacks at STR 7, -4 AP, 2 DMG -- which can put some hurting on most targets.
The thing is, in today's meta of 150 conscripts -- it's just not that amazing. If the melta starts showing a lot more MEQ, then this guy becomes great fast. For example, it will rip apart bike squads.
Deathwing Terminators
Terminators have gotten so much better in 8th edition. The 2+ save is more valuable than it was before. They have also doubled in firepower and doubled in wounds.
8 storm bolters and 2 assault cannons within 12" of an enemy with Belial supporting results in 17.50 dead GEQ a turn. Fully buffed, they can also kill another 24.4 GEQ in assault, wiping 4/5 of a conscript blob in one round. Yes, those situations are very unlikely to happen in a real game, but the illustration is they have decent damage output. Not fantastic damage output like Scions, but decent.
These guys, in every way, are better than their imperial versions. They come with unforgiven, they can grab a 'watcher in the dark' for 5 points.
They also can swap out any model with a TH/SS or dual LC. This lets you mix/match your terminator squads to include a few TH/SS models inside. If the unit is hit by a plasma cannon, take the hit on the TH/SS termie. If it's from a heavy bolter, take it on a SB/PF termie.
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.
The Mace of Absolution makes thunder hammers cry themselves to sleep. They are only -2 instead of -3 rend, but they are not -1 to hit. This means that they are slightly better against armor -- and cost 11 points less than the TH/SS terminator. The only target where the TH is better is against 2+ save targets, like Land Raiders or other terminators.
I've seen how effective the threat of 5 knights deep striking can be. It forces your enemy to adjust their lines, and I can see a spot for 5 of these guys in every army.
Dreadnoughts
Excellent fire platforms, given their ability to reroll to hits. Normally I advocate putting a DCCW on each one as to not waste the attacks -- but in a deathwing army there are enough power fists to where I think you can get away with not bringing them on these guys.
I really like these guys more than predators as fire platforms for their smaller base. Getting 5 of them wrapped around Azrael is very doable.
DarkShrounds
Imagine this is a force field around your units. The buff they provide is very solid as a -1 to hit will reduce the amount of incoming damage from 16.66% less to half. Smart opponents will just shoot the darkshround first.
I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the First Legion; the Dark Angels. My first miniature was a Dark Angels Captain from way back when. The Dark Angels have had a long and storied history in the lore but a bumpy ride in terms of their performance on the tabletop. They’ve often struggled to find their niche when compared to Chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves, who are fairly easily defined in comparison to Codex Chapters and have often been top contenders.
Dark Angels in new Warhammer 40,000 are simply exceptional. They have so many tools, so many different ways to play effectively, that the Dark Angels player’s biggest problem will be choosing which of his units to use! Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, is hands down one of my favourite characters in the game now. He’s got a plethora of tools with his only shortcoming being his relatively slow speed – but even that is easily mitigated by using a Transport vehicle. What he provides though, is fantastic. He gives Dark Angels models within 6″ a 4+ invulnerable save which by itself is incredible. But on top of that, as with other Chapter Masters, he gives a ‘re-roll misses’ aura that works in the Shooting and Fight phases for friendly Dark Angels. Additionally, he grants you a bonus Command Point and packs an almighty wallop in both shooting and melee.
He is just one of many character options available to the Dark Angels player as well. Dark Angels also have a host of specialised units to choose from. Deathwing Knights are one of my favourite melee units available to any Space Marines Chapter, and Black Knights as ever, will strike fear into your opponent with their vicious Plasma Talons and Corvus Hammers.
I can't read the pictures but I have read some rumors. I believe DW terminators don't take morale which is huge. Why can't Dreads with short range weapons ride in Drop Pods?
Soss wrote: I can't read the pictures but I have read some rumors.
are you on mobile? try the Imgur app.
Soss wrote: I believe DW terminators don't take morale which is huge.
Well, Morale checks add a D6 to how many models lost in one turn, then comparing to Leadership. Deathwing Sergeants have Ld 9, so if four models are lost and you roll a 6, that would remove a fifth model which is probably the last Sergeant model in that unit. This is not likely to happen, so immunity doesn't help much. There are some auras that reduce leadership by 1 and some psychic powers that reduce by 2, but I don't expect these in the meta.
Soss wrote: Why can't Dreads with short range weapons ride in Drop Pods?
Drop Pods can now carry only Infantry, and cannot carry Centurions, Terminators, Jump Packs, or even the new Primaris marines. That leaves Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, and Characters.
I think long-range and even medium range dreads are viable (they're a cheaper Predator that can swing), but my poor multi-melta dreads are too slow to get within 12" of their targets.
.......Oh , that might means the Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought and Blood Angel Death Company Dread are now just trash tier unit........
Well, the BA Death Company and Furioso Dreads both have moves of 8" plus they can advance so they can move pretty quickly with 8"+D6" per turn, on top of which any faction that has access to the stormraven can carry a dreadnaught as well.
As for DA...
Well, i'm a Deathwing player and to me, it looks like they will stay shelved for another edition. Even with the buffs to storm bolters and assault cannons and 1 extra wound. that is not going to make terminators competitive. With the new armor modifiers, extra shooting, and mortal wounds out there, they are just going to be killed as fast or even faster than before. Further, the points cost went up for Deathwing terms and knights, and substantially went up for dreads and land raiders, so I guess they don't want people playing DW at all.
I was hoping for 2 things in this edition, 1. that Terminators got the buffs they needed to be competitive for the first time in the better part of a decade, and 2. assault armies were brought up to an even footing with shooty armies. 1 didn't happen at all, i'm still not sure about 2 yet. CC got some buffs, but so did shooting so....
I still have hope for deathwing in this edition. Being able to port in 9" away is a nice boost. but I don't see how they are going to be good. It's hard to make out point costs though, everything seems all over the map.
The Darktalon is a hidden gem. Between the stasis bomb and the rift cannon, you'll be able to put out a decent number of mortals wounds. I think flyers will be surprisingly good at sneaking up on characters and the Darktalon is looking good at assassinating.
The interro-chap + interromancy powers will combo nicely. I see us being able to drop leadership of an enemy and then force them to fail tests hard. I am a bit sad we won't have access to the regular powers though.\
I'm not thrilled at price increase on landspeeders. I do think mobility will still be key, so they may work out. I'll use black knights because i love the models, but they aren't looking super good so far.
Overall I was torn between starting a new vanilla chapter with Primaris or sticking with 1st legion. I think we'll be good enough to compete and they left room for it to get better as well.
My takeaways from reading the leaked stuff about Dark Angels (my primary army):
-Drop Pods are trash. They cost too many points and drop you too far away to do anything. Although meltaguns are still good at 9 inches; you just don't get the "2 dice and pick the best result" buff. So perhaps they could be okay to deliver squads for the alpha strike. We'll see.
-Deathwing are looking better than our previous two codexes (but that ain't saying much). The loss of Twinlinked weapons on the drop is sad but unsurprising (I was kinda hoping for double shots when they come in...). They don't cost too much more than they used to, and now they have 2 wounds.
-Ravenwing Black Knights look okay to me. The cost increase hurts a little, but they can now fire 2 shots at 18 inches, which they couldn't do before. The loss of our rerollable jinking is sad, but again unsurprising. Hey, at least they get 2 wounds, and Corvus Hammers hit harder than they did!
-The special characters: Azrael looks really good since he gives his invulnerable to every unit within 6", plus he's no slouch in combat and he gives an extra command point. Ezekiel is not nearly as good as he was before, but then I think that's true of most psykers now. Sammael looks like a solid choice for Ravenwing-heavy lists, and to me both versions of him are good, although Corvex might be better since Sableclaw can't hide like other characters. Asmodai looks as bad as ever unfortunately, but he did get Ezekiel's old +1 attack bonus for friendly Dark Angels near him. Belial might be the real winner here, as his cost is now more in line with his abilities, and his abilities are good (that Sword of Silence is a nasty piece of work!).
-The former Command Squad guys are interesting now, if a bit overcosted. Apothecaries are the winners here, with the ability to revive dead models. Champions are beastly (Blades of Caliban are AWESOME now!), but they cost a lot for what they do. Ancients seem very overcosted for what they bring to the table and will probably be doing shelf duty for me, at least until I see battle reports or something to demonstrate otherwise. The footslogging one might be okay since he lets dying models get off one more shooting or melee attack before they bite it.
-The flyers look even better this edition. That Avenger Mega Bolter on the Nephilim looks very good now, but the twin lascannon probably has its uses as well even if it is expensive. The Dark Talon looks insanely good! The cost of the flyers may still be an issue, though.
-The Darkshroud looks to be a lot less attractive now. The -1 to hit thing is nice, but it's overcosted.
-Land Speeders seem very overcosted. They are fairly powerful, but I'm not sure it's worth the points for such a fragile unit.
-Land Raiders went up in price, but they are tough. No more one-shotting them means they might actually be viable. I think Crusaders are probably the best since Hurricane bolters now shoot twice as many shots, but all of them are decent.
-Basic troops are about the same as they always were, except it might be a viable option to run a squad of 10 tactical marines now since heavies are not as hampered by moving. Sniper scouts are great for picking off enemy characters, and scouts in general are good cheap choices.
-It does seem that we have the option of taking Roboute Guilliman in our detachments since he shares 2 keywords (Imperium, Adeptus Astartes) with us. Not sure if this is a good choice or not as his reroll-hits ability only helps Smurfs.
Overall, I'm satisfied. I think we may have a greater variety of viable builds than before. One thing I'm kind of miffed about is that they didn't give us access to Contemptor Dreadnoughts. Probably not a huge deal, but it would have been nice. At least we do get Primaris marine units!
So I was tinkering around with a possible RavenDeath list (Ravenwing and Deathwing together) and it looks like that may work okay. You would need a Vanguard detachment for your Deathwing and an Outrider detachment for the Ravenwing. To me, the main concern would be how to deal with big things like Knights, although if a unit of Deathwing Termies gets the charge with their power fists that would be super brutal! Another problem might be the low number of command points, but honestly I don't see a lot of armies in the 2000 point range being able to take a Brigade so it's probably not a huge deal. In a 2000 point list it would be tough to include a Land Raider for the Deathwing but it might be doable if you take cheap stuff for the Ravenwing. Not sure it's worth it. As for the Ravenwing's loadouts, I'm thinking all of them will have their place. Plasma is decent on regular bikers now as it is cheaper to take plasmas on regular bikers than it is to take Black Knights. As I said in my takeaways above, Black Knights are more expensive but still quite good. I think they are better as a melee unit that can soften up a charge target with their guns first, whereas regular bikers are a shooty unit that does close combat as a last resort (in other words, these two units are very much like they have been in 7th). At least you don't have to worry about a unit that Black Knights shoot at running out of charge range upon failing a morale check. I'm very much on the fence as far as the grenade launcher goes. We lost rad and stasis shells, but I really never used them much anyway. I still don't think it is worth it to pay points to replace the Huntmaster's Corvus Hammer. Corvus Hammers are still good, and they are free.
One thing I will want to try is an Air Wing Detachment with 2 Nephilim Jetfighters and a Dark Talon, kind of like our 7th edition Ravenwing Silence Squadron. Heck, you get +1 Command Point for it, so why not? Only downside is that it'd probably cost around 600-700 points at a guesstimate.
One thing I am definitely looking forward to is seeing how the new Primaris Marines will fit into our lists. I might try running some Inceptors with my Ravenwing, and in a more conventional list I'd definitely give the other guys a try. Whenever we get that new hovering tank, I'll probably get one or two and then really start integrating Primaris marines into my lists. Otherwise they are all footslogging and that may be a problem against certain opponents (Tau spring to mind). Then again, with their long range guns they could perhaps be used as a decent gunline, especially if they can grab some cover.
Sorry if I seem long winded or wear you guys out with random musings, but I am really excited for 8th edition. It's gonna be a long 2 weeks...
Terminators - worse than before as 2+ save isn't 2+ anymore & 2 wounds won't make up for that.
Land raiders - they cost HOW MUCH!?!?!?!?!?
Dreadnaughts - a solid "meh"
Belial - a bit better, works well with terminators, but they're junk
Chaplains - junk
All those Ancient dudes - what's the actual point of these guys?
You may have guessed, but I doubt I'll be taking DeathWing with any expectations of winning anything (other than being able to go first).
I hope I'm wrong, and I don't understand this whole new world.
This must be the Russel's Teapot from warseer that I used to discuss Deathwing with all the time.
So yeah, Deathwing are still dead. I actually haven't played since 6th, and only played maybe 2 games in that edition because the rules have been so bad in 40k it wasn't worth playing. So then I start hearing about a new edition thats going to "fix and balance" the whole game and that fluffy armies would be playable and even competitive, so I started getting ever so slightly excited that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I might be able to play my Deathwing army and be able to win..... Then I read the new rules and the DA codex. Yeah, no way. GW clearly doesn't understand why terminators aren't competitive still after all these years. They give them an extra wound at the same time they make most weapons in the game have weapon modifiers that make terms 2+ save worse. Apparently they don't remember that the last time they had weapon modifiers, terminators armor save was 3+ on 2D6.....sigh.
A couple funny things.
1. My other armies actually went down in points, yet my ENTIRE deathwing army actually went WAY up in points and I can't even field it anymore.
2. Unforgiven rule is almost completely worthless for the deathwing. If you have a 5 man squad, which is how I've always ran my DW, the only way you could lose guys to morale is to have 4 out of 5 dead terminators, then roll a 6 for morale, re-roll another 6 for ATSKNF. Thank you for the fearless rule....sigh
3. DW actually get punished when building their army using the detachments in the book, so 4 command points is all we're going to get.
Obviously all this could change with the release of their actual codex but at this point, I have zero, and I literally mean zero confidence in GW to be able to fix terminators so DW can actually be fun and dare I say, even semi-competitive.....
Already watched it. That wasn't a Deathwing or Ravenwing game. That was a dark Angels game.
I'm in no way stating Deathwing or Ravenwing aren't good within a dark Angels army list. I'm stating Pure Deathwing, that's been around since at least 2nd edition when I started is currently, and still going to be dead.
It doesn't take a mathematician to see that they are going to end up with less survivability than before with armor modifiers, mortal wounds and multi damage weapons galore out there.
For me, terminators, in general, have had 3 issues that have led them not being very viable for a long time now. Survivability, cost, and in the case of the shooty variety, weaponry/firepower.
So where do Deathwing players find themselves in 8th ed. with regards to these issues. Survivability, they gained a wound, that's awesome and been needed for 10 years now. The wound table changed and now str 5-7 only wound on 3+ instead of a 2+. So what's the flip side? Armor modifiers, multi damage weapons, and mortal wounds just completely negate these buffs and go even further in killing their survivability. Further, Knights lost their T5 shield wall ability so there's that too.
Cost, they actually not only went up in cost but lost many of their special rules, like re-rolls when DSing, and gained a special rule that is, while, very fluffy, totally useless. To add to this, The other 2 units pure Deathwing armies run, Land raiders and dreadnaughts, went WAY up in points.
Firepower for shooty terms, so this is one area that at least we got some gains. Storm bolters are now rapid 2, so they have 4 shots at half range which works well with the new DS rules. That's very good. The assault cannon went to 6 shots with -1 AP instead of 4 shots with rending, unfortunately, its alos heavy 6 and terminators no longer have relentless so if they move, its a -1 to hit. I'm not %100 sure if this will end up as a nerf or buff, I've seen arguments both ways. I'm pretty sure it ends up as a nerf because of the -1 to hit, besides, losing the rend is pretty big too. I think everything else is largely the same. Having said that, I think storm bolters needed a -1 modifier, and ACs needed -2. Thing is, str 6, and 7 weapons aren't in nearly as strong a position with the new wound table.
Obviously, this is just my opinion based on everything we know and as I said, could change with their codex, but I just don't see GW giving them enough help to stand on their own. I hope I'm wrong, I doubt it though...
bobafett012 wrote: It doesn't take a mathematician to see that they are going to end up with less survivability than before with armor modifiers, mortal wounds and multi damage weapons galore out there.
I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, those weapons that drop their armor save cost a lot of points and are now harder to spam as effectively. Sure, they'll still be there, but at the cost of model count in your opponent's army. Some of those weapons should be a good answer to termies, and their cost reflects that.
So where do Deathwing players find themselves in 8th ed. with regards to these issues. Survivability, they gained a wound, that's awesome and been needed for 10 years now. The wound table changed and now str 5-7 only wound on 3+ instead of a 2+. So what's the flip side? Armor modifiers, multi damage weapons, and mortal wounds just completely negate these buffs and go even further in killing their survivability. Further, Knights lost their T5 shield wall ability so there's that too.
A lot of the weapons that modify their armor would go right through their armor before (like plasma). Even a Terminator's old nemesis, Grav weapons, are actually marginally less effective against Termies than before, wounding them on 3's instead of 2's, and having a chance to only do 1 wound, resulting in a termie soaking 2 shots before dying. Arguably things like Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons got marginally more effective against Termies with their -1 AP, but this is where having 2 wounds comes in handy as both of those weapons only deal 1 wound per shot. Plasma now wounds on 3's instead of 2's and still only does 1 wound (unless it is overcharged, which carries risks), so terminators are slightly better against that too.
Cost, they actually not only went up in cost but lost many of their special rules, like re-rolls when DSing, and gained a special rule that is, while, very fluffy, totally useless. To add to this, The other 2 units pure Deathwing armies run, Land raiders and dreadnaughts, went WAY up in points.
A unit of standard Deathwing termies actually did not go up too much in cost. The squad you get from Dark Vengeance (with 4 storm bolters, 1 assault cannon, 1 power sword, 3 power fists, and a chainfist) costs 225 points in 7th. That same unit costs 245 in 8th with the same loadout. That's actually not too shabby with the improvements to the storm bolter, the now nonexistent risk from teleporting in, the changes to the wound table, and the extra wounds that each model gets. As for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, they did go way up in points (LR Crusader used to be 260 with multimelta, now it's 314), but they now have vastly increased durability since grav can't immobilize them with a single hit and they can't be one-shotted by, well anything really. Giving them wounds, toughness, and an armor save made all vehicles better, hence the point increases across the board.
Firepower for shooty terms, so this is one area that at least we got some gains. Storm bolters are now rapid 2, so they have 4 shots at half range which works well with the new DS rules. That's very good. The assault cannon went to 6 shots with -1 AP instead of 4 shots with rending, unfortunately, its alos heavy 6 and terminators no longer have relentless so if they move, its a -1 to hit. I'm not %100 sure if this will end up as a nerf or buff, I've seen arguments both ways. I'm pretty sure it ends up as a nerf because of the -1 to hit, besides, losing the rend is pretty big too. I think everything else is largely the same. Having said that, I think storm bolters needed a -1 modifier, and ACs needed -2. Thing is, str 6, and 7 weapons aren't in nearly as strong a position with the new wound table.
Yes, losing rending on assault cannons was painful, as is the -1 to hit modifier when moving, but 6 shots kind of makes up for it. That -1 AP makes a difference, as you yourself pointed out when talking about how termies' saves get worse vs. most weapons. Plus, the rending only came up if you rolled a 6 to wound, so it didn't always happen anyway. One way strength 6 weapons got better was against some of the stupidly tough monsters (looking at you Wraithknight), as now they only need 5's to wound instead of 6's. Since some of the big vehicles are now T8 also (such as Imperial Knights) this will make a difference. Of course, you really shouldn't be shooting a 1-damage-per-shot assault cannon at something like a Knight with 20+ wounds and a decent save. Of course against something like that, well, those powerfists aren't just for looks are they?
Overall I think Deathwing will perhaps not be the best on their own as they do have some weaknesses, and maybe that's as it should be. As part of a combined arms-type force, they should do okay. I for one am looking forward to playing terminators and land raiders with a straight face now, and that gives me an incentive to get them painted.
I'll likely play some mostly Deathwing based DA lists although I do agree they are still underpowered (or more accurately, over-costed). They're certainly better than when I began playing with them in 3rd edition, 52 points each and no invulnerable save.
Standard DA are more powerful. Its all about stacking buffs. I'd go with something like Azrael, a librarian, Primaris Lieutenant, and a Darkshroud as a core for a castle; -1 to hit (-2 for one unit from Aversion), 4+ inv, rerolls to hit, rerolls 1 to wound all together is a tough nut to crack. Add in a standard landraider, some tac marines and razorbacks, and a few double flamer speeders to round it out.
I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, those weapons that drop their armor save cost a lot of points and are now harder to spam as effectively. Sure, they'll still be there, but at the cost of model count in your opponent's army. Some of those weapons should be a good answer to termies, and their cost reflects that.
Sternguards basic bolter is -2, Shuriken weaponry -3 on a 6+ to wound, All crons basic guns are -1 AP or better. There's quite a bit of cheap units, and correct me if i am wrong but did the wargear costs not drop too? Seems things like plasma pistols and such are much cheaper now.
ZergSmasher wrote: A lot of the weapons that modify their armor would go right through their armor before (like plasma). Even a Terminator's old nemesis, Grav weapons, are actually marginally less effective against Termies than before, wounding them on 3's instead of 2's, and having a chance to only do 1 wound, resulting in a termie soaking 2 shots before dying. Arguably things like Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons got marginally more effective against Termies with their -1 AP, but this is where having 2 wounds comes in handy as both of those weapons only deal 1 wound per shot. Plasma now wounds on 3's instead of 2's and still only does 1 wound (unless it is overcharged, which carries risks), so terminators are slightly better against that too.
I never played 7th. I knew the rules were going to be bad, they had gotten worse every edition from 4th on imo, so I never had to contend with Grav, which considering terminators already died in droves in 5th and 6th, i'm sure they were probably even worse in 7th, but they weren't viable in the 2 editions before that so thats not a good thing really, and as we've determined, things like HB and such are actually good against them where they got a full save before.
ZergSmasher wrote: A unit of standard Deathwing termies actually did not go up too much in cost. The squad you get from Dark Vengeance (with 4 storm bolters, 1 assault cannon, 1 power sword, 3 power fists, and a chainfist) costs 225 points in 7th. That same unit costs 245 in 8th with the same loadout. That's actually not too shabby with the improvements to the storm bolter, the now nonexistent risk from teleporting in, the changes to the wound table, and the extra wounds that each model gets. As for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, they did go way up in points (LR Crusader used to be 260 with multimelta, now it's 314), but they now have vastly increased durability since grav can't immobilize them with a single hit and they can't be one-shotted by, well anything really. Giving them wounds, toughness, and an armor save made all vehicles better, hence the point increases across the board.
Correct, I didn't say they went up dramatically, but when most infantry are going down in price and vehicles going up to counter act that a bit, it really hurts when your model count is already so low, and that coupled with very high points increases on their vehicles makes for even less models. The Godhammer LR is like 383 with MM, thats crazy tbh.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yes, losing rending on assault cannons was painful, as is the -1 to hit modifier when moving, but 6 shots kind of makes up for it. That -1 AP makes a difference, as you yourself pointed out when talking about how termies' saves get worse vs. most weapons. Plus, the rending only came up if you rolled a 6 to wound, so it didn't always happen anyway. One way strength 6 weapons got better was against some of the stupidly tough monsters (looking at you Wraithknight), as now they only need 5's to wound instead of 6's. Since some of the big vehicles are now T8 also (such as Imperial Knights) this will make a difference. Of course, you really shouldn't be shooting a 1-damage-per-shot assault cannon at something like a Knight with 20+ wounds and a decent save. Of course against something like that, well, those powerfists aren't just for looks are they?
Maybe, I don't mind the change in assault cannon really, more so the hit to to hit roll when moving as terms always used to be relentless. We'll see about whats better at killing these high wound monsters. I think your probably right, and las cannons, missiles etc etc will be the way to go, but I just watched a video the other day that speculated spammed assault cannons and heavy bolters etc would be the way to go in this edition so we'll see, the meta is non existent at the moment.
ZergSmasher wrote: Overall I think Deathwing will perhaps not be the best on their own as they do have some weaknesses, and maybe that's as it should be. As part of a combined arms-type force, they should do okay. I for one am looking forward to playing terminators and land raiders with a straight face now, and that gives me an incentive to get them painted.
But is that not what GW was touting when they did all their interviews and QnAs on this edition?? Fluffy armies could be and would be competitive and the game as a whole would be balanced? It gripes me because i've been playing DW since 2nd edition and really, other than 2nd and 4th, they haven't been very good at all, yet, GW continues to make it posssible to play a pure deathwing army. I am hoping they use the new dex for DA when it comes out to come up with some good detatchments that grant lots of command and/or special rules for DW terms so they can shine on their own, yet not break the game when utilizing them in either Ravenwing, Greenwing armies.
To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.
Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.
Spoletta wrote: To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.
Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.
Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.
I've been thinking about some other units lately, including some that I built for a 7th edition battle company that I never even got to try out. Here are yet more thoughts:
- Assault Squads without jump packs are not looking great right now, especially with flamers since even with a drop pod they will be out of range. Jump Pack Assault Squads are looking a bit better, as they don't need a pod to drop in and they are faster. Plasma Pistols are now a good buy, so I can finally feel good about using my only JP Assault squad WYSIWYG now (they have 2 plasma pistols and a power axe). I think Eviscerators are not a very good choice on these guys since you don't get +1 attack on the charge, meaning you only get one swing with it at -1 to hit. At least Chainswords get extra attacks nowadays.
- If we really want good assault-type jump troops, I think Inceptors are solid. They are expensive, but they put out a lot of firepower and are durable. They hit pretty hard if they charge as well, potentially doing a mortal wound or 2. The high cost seems to be their only real weakness.
-Hellblasters look amazing! Plus, since they are equipped with plasma, they seem like a fluffy choice for Dark Angels. Again, the cost may be a bit of an issue, but their firepower seems solid.
-I think the real winners among the Primaris units in the new starter are probably the Primaris Lieutenants. That rerolling of 1's to wound will come in handy a lot, and they aren't too expensive.
-I can't really see taking Rhinos much, as Razorbacks are better unless one needs to move a large squad around. Maybe a 10-man Assault Squad on foot could benefit well from a Rhino, though.
-Devastators with Multimeltas or Gravcannons seem to be the best candidates for a Drop Pod, as the 9-inch range won't hurt them as much. The only problem is the -1 to hit for their Heavy weapons. Maybe a Captain nearby to give them rerolls of 1's could help, but that's even more points for models that are just going to be bullseyes with legs on your opponent's next turn. Hopefully the guys can at least drop into cover or something.
Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.
Unfortunately, that's not quite right. When DSing, you have to be MORE than 9" away. which means, at minimum, you'd need a 9+ to make the charge. not a huge difference, but still, that 41% chance dropped to a 33% chance to make your charge. On average, 1 out of 3 DSing units will hit their charge without utilizing a command point re-roll.
Spoletta wrote: To be honest, none of you is mentioning that they can assault from deepstrike and benefit from cover. That accounts for a lot.
Deepstrike in cover and in range of an enemy. Try the charge (with a reroll). If it scores then you made it to the enemy while suffering only a bit of overwatch, if not then you are sitting at armor 1+.
Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.
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Indeed you can't, but it still means that you fell no difference between being hit by a pulse carbine or by an assault cannon.
Believe me, I noticed. Also you only need an 8 inch charge to get in since you just have to get within 1 inch for a successful charge. As for the cover boost to saves, I suspect it can't go better than a 2+, but I think you knew that.
Unfortunately, that's not quite right. When DSing, you have to be MORE than 9" away. which means, at minimum, you'd need a 9+ to make the charge. not a huge difference, but still, that 41% chance dropped to a 33% chance to make your charge. On average, 1 out of 3 DSing units will hit their charge without utilizing a command point re-roll.
Played two games against chaos marines yesterday. First with dark angels and then with AdMech with a bit of Inquisition and Sisters of Silence.
Land Raider Crusader is not much of a threat once it's empty, but the original Lascannon Raider remains fearsome; better than Predators for sure.
Unfortunately I don't see much of a niche for Sisters of Silence. And Coteaz may be the bright spot in Inquisition; i'll find out in my next game. One cheap 55 point Inquisitor to fill an HQ slot and Smite / Deny the Witch may still have value tho.
Captain's aura to re-roll 1's is very powerful for both shooting and melee. I think it's often more valuable than a Librarian or any other aura buff.
Deathwing have some advantages over other chapters' terminators like the Deathwing Knight unit and the psychic protection upgrade Watcher in the Dark. I'm building Belial now because I think he's under-costed and he can easily make nearby Deathwing 50% more powerful. I think a Deathwing Apothecary is also worth its points, tho I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!
We know Kastellan robbits are good but wow they carried almost the entire game they were in. Cawl greatly improves them, but protecting them from charges is critical. you'll find screening units in general are pivitol in 8th edition. Bubble wrap is back! Two Scout units earned their points slowing down a Renegade Knight and a Hellbrute for two turns. Vanguard screen while also shooting decently, but I'm not sure they're better than Scouts.
Speaking of, the 8-Wound CSM demon Prince is a big Character but small enough to hide from shooting, and its Warptime power by itself makes Hellbrutes viable without transport.
Finally, the new pre-game rules are so, so different. They'll take some getting used to, and some event organizers may consider modifying them. One insight: the player who places the second objective already knows he'll pick both the deployment map and his zone, so he has incentive to stack all his objectives on one side.
I'm working now on a combined DAngles/AdMech/Coteaz force for Thursday. I don't think Ravenwing will make the cut.
axisofentropy wrote: Played two games against chaos marines yesterday. First with dark angels and then with AdMech with a bit of Inquisition and Sisters of Silence.
Land Raider Crusader is not much of a threat once it's empty, but the original Lascannon Raider remains fearsome; better than Predators for sure.
Unfortunately I don't see much of a niche for Sisters of Silence. And Coteaz may be the bright spot in Inquisition; i'll find out in my next game. One cheap 55 point Inquisitor to fill an HQ slot and Smite / Deny the Witch may still have value tho.
Captain's aura to re-roll 1's is very powerful for both shooting and melee. I think it's often more valuable than a Librarian or any other aura buff.
Deathwing have some advantages over other chapters' terminators like the Deathwing Knight unit and the psychic protection upgrade Watcher in the Dark. I'm building Belial now because I think he's under-costed and he can easily make nearby Deathwing 50% more powerful. I think a Deathwing Apothecary is also worth its points, tho I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!
We know Kastellan robbits are good but wow they carried almost the entire game they were in. Cawl greatly improves them, but protecting them from charges is critical. you'll find screening units in general are pivitol in 8th edition. Bubble wrap is back! Two Scout units earned their points slowing down a Renegade Knight and a Hellbrute for two turns. Vanguard screen while also shooting decently, but I'm not sure they're better than Scouts.
Speaking of, the 8-Wound CSM demon Prince is a big Character but small enough to hide from shooting, and its Warptime power by itself makes Hellbrutes viable without transport.
Finally, the new pre-game rules are so, so different. They'll take some getting used to, and some event organizers may consider modifying them. One insight: the player who places the second objective already knows he'll pick both the deployment map and his zone, so he has incentive to stack all his objectives on one side.
I'm working now on a combined DAngles/AdMech/Coteaz force for Thursday. I don't think Ravenwing will make the cut.
Thanks for the report. I am really thinking about running a regular land raider this edition and deepstriking all my termies with dreds, ravenwing or scouts on the table to satisfy the 50% rule. It just seems like with all the wounds now you are going to need some lascannons on the table not to mention it will attract all the shooting making it easier for you DW to survive. Belial seems like an auto include if you have any shooting terminators.
Belial himself can do well in a fight since his sword always wounds on a 2+ (and does D3 damage if I'm not mistaken). Although honestly I'm not sure if I want characters in melee at all except in certain situations. I don't think the restriction against hitting characters applies in the fight phase.
I'm sitting here trying to put together some Deathwing lists for some games i'm playing this weekend. They are 2k points.
A couple things i'm considering, and wanting to get some other peoples thoughts on. First off, to clarify, when I say Deathwing, I actually mean Deathwing. Terms, land raiders, and venerable dreads, and HQs that are inducted into the DW. I have my own thoughts on this stuff, but i've been out of 40k since basically 5th because i only played a handful of 6th edition games and quit, so i want to see what everyone else is thinking after seeing the rules and the codex.
First thing, the age old debate between shooty or CC Deathwing. Whats going to be better this edition? I personally love shooty terms, but I was thinking maybe a mixture of shooty terms and knights. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of reasons to bring TH and SS terms over the Knights. The Mace of Absolution is a Thunder Hammer without the penalty. I'm thinking, drop a couple 5 man squads of Knights in and aim at their super heavy or large units and use CP re-rolls to get the charge off. Then use shooty terms to march up the field, take objectives and lay down their improved fire power from Storm bolters, Cyclones and assault cannons.
Second, I definitely want to run a Libby in term armor, but after reading the entry in the SM codex, other than losing the ability to DS him, and a couple weapon options, why would you ever take the Libby in Terminator armor over Ezekiel? He's got a 2+/4++, better stats, gets all 3 psychic powers, and some cool wargear that you essentially get for free, all for nearly 20 points less.
Thirdly, what are peoples thoughts on the best command squad units. Apothecary, champion and ancient all seem pretty good to be honest.
Lastly, with land raiders and dreads being much tougher than before, are DW lists going to be better with less terms and loaded up on 2 or 3 LRs and Dreads, or lots of terms and maybe only 1 land raider and a dread? This one i'm not as sure on. The real question is, just how tough are the LD and dreads going to be. basically you can get a 5 man squad of terms instead of a LR, or 2 dreads with some left over.
I agree that Terminator Librarians are too expensive.
I think Deathwing Knights and Belial are the reason to play Deathwing, and maybe even the reason to play Dark Angels. The shooty terminators aren't much better than the other chapters (tho Belial certainly helps).
The Deathwing Apothecary is a good deal if you have more than two other Deathwing units. For 75 points he has everything a bare 26 point Terminator has, plus 3 Wounds so he's already worth at least 40. Then for the remaining 35 points you can heal maybe 3 or 4 Wounds and maybe resurrect a model in the course of a game? Value. But I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!
I'm not sure about the Champion. The Ancient might be worth it next to two units of Deathwing Knights.
I recommend the Lascannon Land Raider. The Crusader isn't much of a threat once it's empty.
Shooty dreadnoughts compare favorably to Predators. While they may not be as efficient or as tough shooting platforms as Razorbacks, they have the advantage of swinging back at infantry.
I think a 100% Deathwing army will be a challenge but probably not bad for Eternal War missions. I'm trying a 50% Deathwing army around Belial with the other half centered around Belisarius Cawl.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe a Jump Pack Librarian is a better buy than Terminator?
bobafett012 wrote: Why do you think the crusader isn't much of a threat? It can put out 36+ shots a turn, that's pretty good.
The issue with the crusader in a DeathWing list, as I see it, is that it's just "more of the same". It means that in terms of dealing with vehicles, you only really have assault as a viable option, and DeathWing are slooooow...
Any thoughts are gratefully received, either here or there.
For reference, from a tactics POV the thoughts I'm having are:
Shooty or CC - I've gone shooty, and take advantage of cover (and bring your own cover of the LRs) - the 3++ is nice, but it doesn't kill much if you're not LR rushing, and without crusaders there isn't much point
Upgrades or bodies - I've gone upgrades, but only because it "felt" right, no other reason, and I'm happy to be corrected
LRs or Dreads - I like Land Raiders, and looking at the Dread rules, I think the LR's add more for the points
LRs or Bodies - the LRs take up the points cost 3 terminator squads (and then some), but I think they add a different dimension
I think Deathwing Knights and Belial are the reason to play Deathwing, and maybe even the reason to play Dark Angels. The shooty terminators aren't much better than the other chapters (tho Belial certainly helps).
The Deathwing Apothecary is a good deal if you have more than two other Deathwing units. For 75 points he has everything a bare 26 point Terminator has, plus 3 Wounds so he's already worth at least 40. Then for the remaining 35 points you can heal maybe 3 or 4 Wounds and maybe resurrect a model in the course of a game? Value. But I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!
Not that it is a huge difference but the Apothecary is 77 points he has to pay two points for the storm bolter.
bobafett012 wrote: Why do you think the crusader isn't much of a threat? It can put out 36+ shots a turn, that's pretty good.
The issue with the crusader in a DeathWing list, as I see it, is that it's just "more of the same". It means that in terms of dealing with vehicles, you only really have assault as a viable option, and DeathWing are slooooow...
I am in agreement on the Land Raider. Now that deepstrike is way more reliable, you have to get out in the movement phase and the assault cannon doesn't rend hurts the crusader. A crusader either has to get close then next turn disembark its contents while the enemy could simple just run away causing you to have to chase and wait another turn to drop off your knights. Other scenario it charges a unit and uses its new frag launcher rule to keep a squad (4+ to deliver some mortal wounds is nice) in place but the enemy gets to wail on it for a turn and then it drops off its knights and then runs away but can't shoot for a phase. Which kind of sucks having a 287 or 314 point model (multi-melta) that spends an entire turn not shooting.
Also Deathwing really need anti-tank and tanks while more expensive are not going to die easily now so lascannons, multi-meltas and autocannons have to find a way into the list somewhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One note on dreadnoughts, while they can't be deepstruck in a pod right now, unlike other vehicles they do not degrade and are potent in the fight phase as well. The venerable dread for 20 more points gets you 2+/2+ really 3+ BS since he will be moving and a FNP 6+ which is nice.
I am in agreement on the Land Raider. Now that deepstrike is way more reliable, you have to get out in the movement phase and the assault cannon doesn't rend hurts the crusader. A crusader either has to get close then next turn disembark its contents while the enemy could simple just run away causing you to have to chase and wait another turn to drop off your knights. Other scenario it charges a unit and uses its new frag launcher rule to keep a squad (4+ to deliver some mortal wounds is nice) in place but the enemy gets to wail on it for a turn and then it drops off its knights and then runs away but can't shoot for a phase. Which kind of sucks having a 287 or 314 point model (multi-melta) that spends an entire turn not shooting.
Also Deathwing really need anti-tank and tanks while more expensive are not going to die easily now so lascannons, multi-meltas and autocannons have to find a way into the list somewhere.
That's what I was leaning towards myself. Terms already carry stormbolters and assault cannons that were buffed (at least stormbolters), so the LR godhammer seems the way to go, although they are 69 points more expensive...
Automatically Appended Next Post: One note on dreadnoughts, while they can't be deepstruck in a pod right now, unlike other vehicles they do not degrade and are potent in the fight phase as well. The venerable dread for 20 more points gets you 2+/2+ really 3+ BS since he will be moving and a FNP 6+ which is nice.
So i was debating on whether to even give my venerable dreads DCCWs. Its cheaper to give them twin las and missiles and that makes them far more anti tank as well, so a pair of them along with a Godhammer LR seems like a decent enough amount of heavy anti-tank, but again, I'm trying to decide whether the higher cost, and versatility of the DCCW is better than just going pure fire support. I'm envisioning a squad of knights, and depending on my opponent, possibly a couple squads of terms as well, coming down turn 1 or 2 with Belial. The rest of my forces, whatever squads of terms didn't DS, a LR and maybe 2 dreads marching up the field in support of each other, and in that scenario, the dreads might not need DCCWs.
Two things I'm wondering about: Grav Pistols, and the Imperial Space Marine. Is a Grav Pistol worth taking over a Plasma Pistol? It is lower strength, but d3 damage against anything with a 3+ save seems legit, compared to 1 damage or a risky 2 damage with the plasma. Could be nasty vs. other Space Marine characters or something. As for the ISM, he seems really deadly with that d6 damage from his Disintegration gun. I'm just not sure he's worth the 60 points he costs. It is a cool model and I really want to use him though!
Y'all Deathwing Knights are the business. Two or three units, Belial and importantly the Ancient. With a reroll, at least one will likely make a charge.
I talked up the Apothecary earlier and he's good, but the Ancient is even greater value. If he's standing near 8 power fists you paid 160 points for, +1 Attack makes them 50% more effective, an 80 point value. Then his own 4 thunder hammer attacks makes him even more valuable.
I'll try some Ravenwing this week, but I'm more convinced now that Deathwing is the reason to play dark angels in 8th.
axisofentropy wrote: Y'all Deathwing Knights are the business. Two or three units, Belial and importantly the Ancient. With a reroll, at least one will likely make a charge.
I talked up the Apothecary earlier and he's good, but the Ancient is even greater value. If he's standing near 8 power fists you paid 160 points for, +1 Attack makes them 50% more effective, an 80 point value. Then his own 4 thunder hammer attacks makes him even more valuable.
I'll try some Ravenwing this week, but I'm more convinced now that Deathwing is the reason to play dark angels in 8th.
So would you say that DW Knights are better than regular Deathwing terminators then? I'm of the opinion that they are both equally good at different jobs, but that's just me. Are Land Raiders worth trying, or should we stick to teleporting in?
The Land Raiders with lascannons are very good. I only have a crusader and I don't use it because it doesn't have enough firepower to be a threat once it's empty.
Yes, Deathwing knights are better than normal terminators. Looking at their points, they're only paying 18 points for a mace that's strictly better than a 20 point thunder hammer, not to mention the fail which killed 8 Genestealers at once for me yesterday.
axisofentropy wrote: The Land Raiders with lascannons are very good. I only have a crusader and I don't use it because it doesn't have enough firepower to be a threat once it's empty.
Yes, Deathwing knights are better than normal terminators. Looking at their points, they're only paying 18 points for a mace that's strictly better than a 20 point thunder hammer, not to mention the fail which killed 8 Genestealers at once for me yesterday.
Agreed, if we're talking compared to Thunder hammer/storm shield variety. I think the conversation is going to be Knights VS shooty squads, and how many of each. Having said that, I played my first 8th edition game, and my first 40k game since early 6th edition when I quit playing....
So the Deathwing took home a crushing defeat against a khorn/chaos army list. I ran 4 squads of terms, 3 shooty, 1 squad of knights, Belial, 2 apothecarys, and 3 venerable dreads. all with twin las, and twin autocannons.
I decided to DS in Belial, an apothecary, the DW knights, and 2 squads of assault cannon terms. Meanwhile, Azreal stood near the other apothecary, the 4th squad of shooty terms, and the 3 dreads giving them 3+/4++/6+++ saves, and everyone got re-rolls to hit.
The Dreads annihilated a couple rhinos full of zerkers, and preds along with some infantry and bikers. Azreal did some heavy lifting killing a demon prince, a bunch of bikers, a chaos lord on a bike, and a squad of cultists.
My DS was very ineffective because my opponent set up 4 blobs of cultists in his half the board preventing me from DSing anywhere, so i held them in reserve until turn 2 and 3 in the hops that some space was opened but alas, it never happened so I just had to bring them in and do what I could. The pretty much all my terms failed their charge rolls even with a command point re-roll. short of abilities to re-roll charge distances or other abilities, charging after DSing seems like it will be very un-reliable.
The knights got charged by a whittled down squad of zerkers and pretty much got wiped out to a guy before they could finish the squad off, although the apothecary managed to bring a knight back and heal him to full wounds so they were able to grab an objective late game for me.
The other Apothecary kept Azreal at full health the full game allowing him to run rampant through though his squads.
So my takeaways were the dreads were amazingly resiliant and killed vehicles very fast, specially when focus firing. The re-rolls granted from Azreal and Belial basically gave my entire army re-rolls and that was very powerful. The knights were somewhat disappointing, I almost wish I had just brought another squad of shooty terms instead but some more games needed to really make my mind up. I was also surprised at just how much more resiliant than they used to be with the extra wound and changes to the wound chart making most stuff wound on 3's. Yeah it was one game, but they felt pretty good so far.
Last thing, I really think getting ezekiel in the list would be a huge boon as he can use aversion on things that are dangerous to terminators.
If you have more than one Terminator unit, you gotta consider a Deathwing Ancient. You're paying so much for those powerfists, so getting 50% more attacks is great value.
Thanks for talking about screen units complicating deep strike. that's an important mechanic and one that will separate good players from great. If screening units become commonplace, then Land Raiders become more valuable.
axisofentropy wrote: If you have more than one Terminator unit, you gotta consider a Deathwing Ancient. You're paying so much for those powerfists, so getting 50% more attacks is great value.
Thanks for talking about screen units complicating deep strike. that's an important mechanic and one that will separate good players from great. If screening units become commonplace, then Land Raiders become more valuable.
Agreed on both points. Even the LR Crusader would be good for sweeping Cultists or something out from in front of more valuable units that you might want to teleport next to on the following turn. On the Ancient, I've got one modelled with TH/SS, I assume this is a good loadout for him since he needs to stay alive?
axisofentropy wrote: If you have more than one Terminator unit, you gotta consider a Deathwing Ancient. You're paying so much for those powerfists, so getting 50% more attacks is great value.
Thanks for talking about screen units complicating deep strike. that's an important mechanic and one that will separate good players from great. If screening units become commonplace, then Land Raiders become more valuable.
I was hard pressed to choose between the champ, the ancient, or 2 apothecarys. I have 2 issues in my head with the ancient. 1. if you DS him and a unit in to get his bonus for assault, and the unit gets their charge and he doesn't, you could have an instance where he doesn't contribute his buff since he's 9" away, and my other thought was that he costs between 116-128 points, so i could almost just take 3 more terminators. I had a similar issue with the champ, although if he makes the charge and the squad doesn't, he can still wreck face by himself pretty well with 3+D3 attacks that hit on 2's, wound on 3's(most of the time), and allow no save other than invuls, but he provides no aura. The cool thing about the apoth, while you can't kit him out, which sucks, he doesn't really even want to be in CC so you can just run with him and only thing your losing is storm bolter shots. I want to get around and try all 3, they all have upside and downsides. then again, squeezing Ezekiel in to get aversion might be better than all 3!!
The Apothecary that pocket healed azreal all game was one of my MVPs, because he is what enabled Azreal to do the amount of damage he did.
Next up, I want to get the dual raiders list I've got onto the table and see how dual raiders work together.
I feel like deathwing can get too far out into the weeds with all of the character options available to them. I think list building will have to be disciplined, because it's easy to fill up our slots/points with characters and not bring enough meat and potatoes.
For my deathwing detachments I'll just bring Belial and an Ancient. Rerolling to hits, and +1 attack is about all of the force multiplication I need.
Whenever you charge around characters you can easily hang back one model to retain buff range. Just don't forget like I did yesterday!
Yes you could buy 2.5 more terminators, but the Ancient has 2.5 times the wounds of a Terminator, and more attacks, and character status to hide and heroic intervention. And we haven't even talked about his buff yet! Add up all those power fists you're paying for, how much is it worth for 50% more attacks with them?
axisofentropy wrote: Whenever you charge around characters you can easily hang back one model to retain buff range. Just don't forget like I did yesterday!
Yeah, thats true, i forgot you can conga line back a bit and still attack with 2 ranks worth of guys. These new assault rules are a little wonky. Still getting used to them, and all the little nuances that go along with them.
Has anyone looked hard into a Ravenwing list based on -1 to hit penalties? I'm basically thinking about stacking these 3.
-Dark Shroud
-Darktalon/Nephilim Jetfighter
-DA librarian and a Rune Priest (Supervising Agent for Gullimane), casting 2 different versions of -1 to hit on key enemy units.
The list I'm thinking about has something like this:
2k points - 1x Flyer Detachemnt, 2x Vanguard Detachments (6CPs)
Rune Priest - Bike, Rune sword
DA Librarian - Bike, Force Sword
RW Apothocary - Plasma Talon Covis Hammer
Techmrine on Bike- Power Sword Conversion beamer
Ravenwing DT - Rift Cannon, 2x Hur
Ravenwing DT - Rift Cannon, 2x Hur
Nephilim Jetfighter - AMB, 2xHB, 2x BSM
Nephilim Jetfighter - AMB, 2xHB, 2x BSM
RW Bikes - 2x Melta 3x Chain
RW Bikes - 2x Melta 3x Chain
RW Bikes - 2x Melta 3x Chain
RW Bikes - 2x Melta 3x Chain
Darkshroud - AC Darkshroud - HB
This list is rather hard to shoot due all the -1 to hit, it's super mobile. and has a good about of both anit-infantry and anti-Bigstuff.
It seems little light on bodies, but mobility can really make up for that. I can split up into 2 different groups if needed and still maintain a good about of -1s to hit
Gibs55 wrote: so what are you guys thinking a Deathwing list is going to look like? Trying to budget for what models I am likely to need if I start this army haha
looks like its going to be about 2 HQ's, a couple elite characters, 4 squads of terminators, then either 2-3 dreads, or 2 Land raiders. So far, i'm liking dreads over land raiders but it's still too early to make a call for me at least. I think Godhammer Land raiders or twin las Dreads are going to be a absolute must in this edition to deal with vehicles, monsters, characters etc.
Gibs55 wrote: so what are you guys thinking a Deathwing list is going to look like? Trying to budget for what models I am likely to need if I start this army haha
looks like its going to be about 2 HQ's, a couple elite characters, 4 squads of terminators, then either 2-3 dreads, or 2 Land raiders. So far, i'm liking dreads over land raiders but it's still too early to make a call for me at least. I think Godhammer Land raiders or twin las Dreads are going to be a absolute must in this edition to deal with vehicles, monsters, characters etc.
I agree with all except the Land Raiders. They are good, but all of them (especially the Godhammer) are really expensive. I think they'll be usable, but probably not optimal. For the cost of a LR, you could get 2 Dreads with Twin Lascannons and missile launchers and still have points left over. One or both of them could even be a Venerable Dread. It's possible that in a 2k point list you could have the best of both worlds and get a LR and some dreads along with your termies. I'll have to do some experimenting.
Speaking of Deathwing Termies, what is the best heavy weapon to give them? The Cyclone Launcher is amazing, but it's also expensive and paints a big bullseye on a squad that carries it. My gut feeling is perhaps a mix of those and Assault Cannons are going to be best. Plasma Cannons are too unreliable, and Heavy Flamers are too short-ranged. Also, are Chainfists worth it compared to a regular Powerfist? Finally, when considering running melee Termies, particularly TH/SS ones, is it better to just take Deathwing Knights instead? It seems like they do the same job, only better.
I agree with all except the Land Raiders. They are good, but all of them (especially the Godhammer) are really expensive. I think they'll be usable, but probably not optimal. For the cost of a LR, you could get 2 Dreads with Twin Lascannons and missile launchers and still have points left over. One or both of them could even be a Venerable Dread. It's possible that in a 2k point list you could have the best of both worlds and get a LR and some dreads along with your termies. I'll have to do some experimenting.
Yeah, i just played a game sunday and ran tri Venerable dreads with twin las cannons and twin auto cannons, and let me tell you, they did MAJOR work. I sat Azreal within 6" of them so they got 3+/4++/6+ saves, re-rolling all misses and wow, they were great. My only thought during the game was at one point, I would have liked to have a DCCW on maybe at least 1 of them to counter charge a bit more effectively, considering I got charged by Kharn, a squad of berzerkers, a demon prince and a big squad of bikers at the same time. Cool story though, Azreal, the 3 dreads and an apothecary wiped every single one of them over a couple turns, would have been faster with a DCCW though!
So yeah, thus far, the 3 dread setup was awesome, but still, small sample size so...
ZergSmasher wrote: Speaking of Deathwing Termies, what is the best heavy weapon to give them? The Cyclone Launcher is amazing, but it's also expensive and paints a big bullseye on a squad that carries it. My gut feeling is perhaps a mix of those and Assault Cannons are going to be best. Plasma Cannons are too unreliable, and Heavy Flamers are too short-ranged. Also, are Chainfists worth it compared to a regular Powerfist? Finally, when considering running melee Termies, particularly TH/SS ones, is it better to just take Deathwing Knights instead? It seems like they do the same job, only better.
I got to go with assault cannons. Thing is, Cyclones are 2.5 times more expensive than the assault cannon. so what are you paying for, the krak missiles, because the assault cannon far out weighs the frag missiles, and as far as krak missiles, thats what the 3 dreads putting out 18 anti-vehicle shots a turn are for. Heavy flamers, at least on terminators, I think leave a lot to be desired. You can DS and flame squads anymore since your outside of 8", and your likely hoping to get the charge off so, yeah, if you fail your charge, then you got a nice little weapon for over watch, but terms are just too slow for it to be effective imo. I'm still super disappointed with the plasma option for Deathwing, i mean couldn't it have been something a little better than your base plasma cannon? you have so few models, you just need more effective shooting than what the plasma cannon offers imo.
As far as Knights vs TH/SS terms, imo, there is ZERO reason for DA players to take TH/SS terms over the knights. The knights maces are literally TH that do 1 less damage but have no penalty to hit, and that Knight captains Flail....that thing is sick as hell with wounds spilling over like a poor man's mortal wounds. The one place I can maybe see TH/SS terms is maybe 1 in a shooty squad to soak the big hits.
Chain fists are DEFINITELY worth it, they are 2 points more than fists now for -4 AP and more consistent damage. I load up on them if I have extra points. Definitely put them on your cyclones/assault cannons etc etc since they are the last models to die.
I agree with all except the Land Raiders. They are good, but all of them (especially the Godhammer) are really expensive. I think they'll be usable, but probably not optimal. For the cost of a LR, you could get 2 Dreads with Twin Lascannons and missile launchers and still have points left over. One or both of them could even be a Venerable Dread. It's possible that in a 2k point list you could have the best of both worlds and get a LR and some dreads along with your termies. I'll have to do some experimenting.
Yeah, i just played a game sunday and ran tri Venerable dreads with twin las cannons and twin auto cannons, and let me tell you, they did MAJOR work. I sat Azreal within 6" of them so they got 3+/4++/6+ saves, re-rolling all misses and wow, they were great. My only thought during the game was at one point, I would have liked to have a DCCW on maybe at least 1 of them to counter charge a bit more effectively, considering I got charged by Kharn, a squad of berzerkers, a demon prince and a big squad of bikers at the same time. Cool story though, Azreal, the 3 dreads and an apothecary wiped every single one of them over a couple turns, would have been faster with a DCCW though!
So yeah, thus far, the 3 dread setup was awesome, but still, small sample size so...
ZergSmasher wrote: Speaking of Deathwing Termies, what is the best heavy weapon to give them? The Cyclone Launcher is amazing, but it's also expensive and paints a big bullseye on a squad that carries it. My gut feeling is perhaps a mix of those and Assault Cannons are going to be best. Plasma Cannons are too unreliable, and Heavy Flamers are too short-ranged. Also, are Chainfists worth it compared to a regular Powerfist? Finally, when considering running melee Termies, particularly TH/SS ones, is it better to just take Deathwing Knights instead? It seems like they do the same job, only better.
I got to go with assault cannons. Thing is, Cyclones are 2.5 times more expensive than the assault cannon. so what are you paying for, the krak missiles, because the assault cannon far out weighs the frag missiles, and as far as krak missiles, thats what the 3 dreads putting out 18 anti-vehicle shots a turn are for. Heavy flamers, at least on terminators, I think leave a lot to be desired. You can DS and flame squads anymore since your outside of 8", and your likely hoping to get the charge off so, yeah, if you fail your charge, then you got a nice little weapon for over watch, but terms are just too slow for it to be effective imo. I'm still super disappointed with the plasma option for Deathwing, i mean couldn't it have been something a little better than your base plasma cannon? you have so few models, you just need more effective shooting than what the plasma cannon offers imo.
As far as Knights vs TH/SS terms, imo, there is ZERO reason for DA players to take TH/SS terms over the knights. The knights maces are literally TH that do 1 less damage but have no penalty to hit, and that Knight captains Flail....that thing is sick as hell with wounds spilling over like a poor man's mortal wounds. The one place I can maybe see TH/SS terms is maybe 1 in a shooty squad to soak the big hits.
Chain fists are DEFINITELY worth it, they are 2 points more than fists now for -4 AP and more consistent damage. I load up on them if I have extra points. Definitely put them on your cyclones/assault cannons etc etc since they are the last models to die.
What is your list looking like now after the learnings from that game?
Thoughts on running 2xDreads and a LR (which one?)
Actually, the list completely crushed my opponents army. He played a chaos army with Khorn elements. Final score was 12 VP to 3 VP. So before I change up the list, I want a couple more games in with it too see if it was a fluke or terminators are actually good now...
The only thing I'd like to add in right now is Ezekiel if I could swing it but I'm not sure I can good the points without cutting Azreal, belial, or both apothecarys. I'll play around with some numbers.
I think you could do very well with 2 dreads and a LR. The LR definitely needs to be Godhammer. Here's the thing, the LRC has assault cannons and bolters, what does the rest of your army have, assault cannons and bolters, so the anti-tank/monster/flyer etc is really needed because vehicles are extremely tough now. With the new detachments, there's going to be some heavy mech armies out there and terminators are too slow to chase down vehicles and their weapons take for too long to take them out.
I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the First Legion; the Dark Angels. My first miniature was a Dark Angels Captain from way back when. The Dark Angels have had a long and storied history in the lore but a bumpy ride in terms of their performance on the tabletop. They’ve often struggled to find their niche when compared to Chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves, who are fairly easily defined in comparison to Codex Chapters and have often been top contenders.
Dark Angels in new Warhammer 40,000 are simply exceptional. They have so many tools, so many different ways to play effectively, that the Dark Angels player’s biggest problem will be choosing which of his units to use! Azrael, Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, is hands down one of my favourite characters in the game now. He’s got a plethora of tools with his only shortcoming being his relatively slow speed – but even that is easily mitigated by using a Transport vehicle. What he provides though, is fantastic. He gives Dark Angels models within 6″ a 4+ invulnerable save which by itself is incredible. But on top of that, as with other Chapter Masters, he gives a ‘re-roll misses’ aura that works in the Shooting and Fight phases for friendly Dark Angels. Additionally, he grants you a bonus Command Point and packs an almighty wallop in both shooting and melee.
He is just one of many character options available to the Dark Angels player as well. Dark Angels also have a host of specialised units to choose from. Deathwing Knights are one of my favourite melee units available to any Space Marines Chapter, and Black Knights as ever, will strike fear into your opponent with their vicious Plasma Talons and Corvus Hammers.
I have all but decided the DA (Deathwing) are going to be my 40K army, after reading their history and the fact you can run a heavy Terminator army. Given I do not own much 40K 'stuff' and have mainly be invested in AOS/Fantasy for the past decade I need to start from scratch. Also I have about a month off work coming up so now is the perfect time to build a new army...
Please tell me if I am on the right track for the models I am looking at buying for 8th Edition. I like to get everything at once as it helps me focus and keep on top of the project
Elites Deathwing Apothecary x2
Deathwing Ancient x2
Deathwing Troops Deathwing Knights x2 units (5)
Deathwing terminators x2 units (5)
Is this enough Terminators for regular sized and competitive games ?
Heavy Support Venerable Dreadnaught x3
Landraider
Am I missing anything critical?
Still trying to workout what the loadouts for each unit should be which is challenging as I have very little 40k background. I assume I can magnetise the Dreads and LR weapons which opens up options.
I have all but decided the DA (Deathwing) are going to be my 40K army, after reading their history and the fact you can run a heavy Terminator army. Given I do not own much 40K 'stuff' and have mainly be invested in AOS/Fantasy for the past decade I need to start from scratch. Also I have about a month off work coming up so now is the perfect time to build a new army...
Please tell me if I am on the right track for the models I am looking at buying for 8th Edition. I like to get everything at once as it helps me focus and keep on top of the project
Elites Deathwing Apothecary x2
Deathwing Ancient x2
Deathwing Troops Deathwing Knights x2 units (5)
Deathwing terminators x2 units (5)
Is this enough Terminators for regular sized and competitive games ?
Heavy Support Venerable Dreadnaught x3
Landraider
Am I missing anything critical?
Still trying to workout what the loadouts for each unit should be which is challenging as I have very little 40k background. I assume I can magnetise the Dreads and LR weapons which opens up options.
Looks good, but you can only take 1 Deathwing Ancient.
I have all but decided the DA (Deathwing) are going to be my 40K army, after reading their history and the fact you can run a heavy Terminator army. Given I do not own much 40K 'stuff' and have mainly be invested in AOS/Fantasy for the past decade I need to start from scratch. Also I have about a month off work coming up so now is the perfect time to build a new army...
Please tell me if I am on the right track for the models I am looking at buying for 8th Edition. I like to get everything at once as it helps me focus and keep on top of the project
Elites Deathwing Apothecary x2
Deathwing Ancient x2
Deathwing Troops Deathwing Knights x2 units (5)
Deathwing terminators x2 units (5)
Is this enough Terminators for regular sized and competitive games ?
Heavy Support Venerable Dreadnaught x3
Landraider
Am I missing anything critical?
Still trying to workout what the loadouts for each unit should be which is challenging as I have very little 40k background. I assume I can magnetise the Dreads and LR weapons which opens up options.
I would go more than 2 squads of regular terminators, other than that, looks like a great start.
I have all but decided the DA (Deathwing) are going to be my 40K army, after reading their history and the fact you can run a heavy Terminator army. Given I do not own much 40K 'stuff' and have mainly be invested in AOS/Fantasy for the past decade I need to start from scratch. Also I have about a month off work coming up so now is the perfect time to build a new army...
Please tell me if I am on the right track for the models I am looking at buying for 8th Edition. I like to get everything at once as it helps me focus and keep on top of the project
Elites Deathwing Apothecary x2
Deathwing Ancient x2
Deathwing Troops Deathwing Knights x2 units (5)
Deathwing terminators x2 units (5)
Is this enough Terminators for regular sized and competitive games ?
Heavy Support Venerable Dreadnaught x3
Landraider
Am I missing anything critical?
Still trying to workout what the loadouts for each unit should be which is challenging as I have very little 40k background. I assume I can magnetise the Dreads and LR weapons which opens up options.
I would go more than 2 squads of regular terminators, other than that, looks like a great start.
Yeah, i would go with 4 so you have some room to experiment a little. with 2, and possibly 3, your going to probably be hamstrung into running more Knights than might be efficient. Plus you could mess around with larger squad sizes too
I think Deathwing Knights and Belial are the reason to play Deathwing, and maybe even the reason to play Dark Angels. The shooty terminators aren't much better than the other chapters (tho Belial certainly helps).
The Deathwing Apothecary is a good deal if you have more than two other Deathwing units. For 75 points he has everything a bare 26 point Terminator has, plus 3 Wounds so he's already worth at least 40. Then for the remaining 35 points you can heal maybe 3 or 4 Wounds and maybe resurrect a model in the course of a game? Value. But I'd rather have a Sanguinary Priest!
I'm not sure about the Champion. The Ancient might be worth it next to two units of Deathwing Knights.
I recommend the Lascannon Land Raider. The Crusader isn't much of a threat once it's empty.
Shooty dreadnoughts compare favorably to Predators. While they may not be as efficient or as tough shooting platforms as Razorbacks, they have the advantage of swinging back at infantry.
Regarding this, I am currently working on a Deathwing list that I would like to run through you guys. I am only unsure if I should take one or two Knight units in Land Raiders. and I will make extensive use of Dreadnoughts.
Gibs55 wrote: What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?
If you want melee guys, do what the guy above said and go with Deathwing Knights instead of TH/SS guys. They are better in every way. If you want shooty ones, go with Assault Cannons for the heavy, perhaps a Cyclone Launcher if you're feeling spicy.
Gibs55 wrote: What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?
With storm bolters becoming rapid 2, its hard for me to think of equipping them other than with the SBs. DS in and shooting 4 shots per guy, and if belial comes in with a couple squads, they re-roll all to hits is really good. I've been contemplating equipping the sergeants with TH/SS just to soak hits the high AP shots, but even then i'm not sure if the extra points are worth it. a
As far as heavy weapons, point for point, assault cannons seem like the best option to me so far. Cyclones would be nice but for 50 points, I can't bring myself to equip them at 2.5 times the cost of an assault cannon when the assault cannon, imo, is far superior to the frag missile, and I get my anti tank from other sources, like twin lascannon dreads anyways. I'm not a fan of the other options. terminators are too slow for Heavy flamers, and since you have to DS outside of 9", you can't even come down and flame a squad anymore. The plasma cannon is just too inconsistent and at str 7, is really no better then str 6 assault cannon with how the wound table is now.
Gibs55 wrote: What are you guys seeing as the best way to equip your Deathwing Terminator squads?
With storm bolters becoming rapid 2, its hard for me to think of equipping them other than with the SBs. DS in and shooting 4 shots per guy, and if belial comes in with a couple squads, they re-roll all to hits is really good. I've been contemplating equipping the sergeants with TH/SS just to soak hits the high AP shots, but even then i'm not sure if the extra points are worth it. a
As far as heavy weapons, point for point, assault cannons seem like the best option to me so far. Cyclones would be nice but for 50 points, I can't bring myself to equip them at 2.5 times the cost of an assault cannon when the assault cannon, imo, is far superior to the frag missile, and I get my anti tank from other sources, like twin lascannon dreads anyways. I'm not a fan of the other options. terminators are too slow for Heavy flamers, and since you have to DS outside of 9", you can't even come down and flame a squad anymore. The plasma cannon is just too inconsistent and at str 7, is really no better then str 6 assault cannon with how the wound table is now.
50 pts does seem quite pricey for the Cyclones and assault cannons look nice after looking through some math hammer.
I am starting to that that only one unit of Knights might be the way to go. Also is there any value in putting them in a Land Raider, over DS them in?
Also does anyone have a view on the Predator, seems like a beast this addition? Or do you think it is outshined by the LR and Dreads?
haven't playtested yet, but excited for black knights. looking forward to advancing with them while still shooting.
I'm also excited plasma doesn't hurt you if you don't overcharge. i feel like it makes it great against infantry, and then you have the option to turn on the pain with overcharge.
First I'm going to try out black and green wing. A blob of Sammael, two dark talons, black knights, and a darkshroud to light things up on the move.
Green portion would be two devastators (plas on one, las/MLs on the other), being babysat by a company master and primaris lt. for some reroll action. Sprinkle in some tacs and scouts as troops and a vindicare for commissar hunting.
Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.
So it sounds like a unit or two of DW terminators and maybe one gang of knights striking in with Belial is a thing that could be worked into a list?
GrimDork wrote: Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.
Drop Pods are not looking great, but IMO the classic Melta+Combimelta combo might still be legit. Sure, you're out of half range on the guns, but still a potential for 2d6 damage on something big isn't too bad, especially when you can use a command reroll to mitigate bad rolls.
So it sounds like a unit or two of DW terminators and maybe one gang of knights striking in with Belial is a thing that could be worked into a list
I actually did that today, and so did one of my opponents, and it seemed to work great. All those rerolls with Belial are amazing, especially if you do what I did and take a CML on one of your termie units. Belial is going to be a must take for a list that has a decent Deathwing component for sure.
I think Azrael and some heavy support type stuff sitting in the backfield is going to be a thing for sure. I was loving all the rerolls to hit with my lascannons on my Dreads, Devastators, and Predator today. Azzy is like a Void Shield Generator with a smaller bubble but extra effects, including that extra CP he gives.
Speaking of CP, I don't really think it's going to be worth it to manhandle DA into a brigade detachment. Yes, it can be done, but I think you have to dilute your firepower way too much to get much use out of all those command points. Maybe whenever DA get an actual codex we'll get some unique stratagems that will make it worth it, but I doubt it.
GrimDork wrote: Are we seeing *anything* in the DA list that's reasonable to use in a drop pod? Just painted one prior to the edition change and I'd like to use it if possible.
Hmm so what kind of Devastators? Melta seems like the thing but its awful expensive this edition. Maybe the good old heavy bolter team? With the plasma cannon, of course, to take advantage of that Signum. Perhaps a combi-plasma too, to drive the point home and kind of acquire a secondary role. Add ammo cherub for the PC and along with the Sgt recklessly overheating his gun you could slag some two wound targets or a vehicle too.
Would it be worth loading up the extra 5 marines to combat squad off of the main team to take full advantage of the transport or is that possibly wasting points?
I like the sound of Belial + 2x DWT + Knights. Shooty, punchy, thematic, and a nice load of points in relatively few figures. Maybe a DW apothecary to be cheeky and battle Rez some of these monsters? What about the Champion, that halberd can help thin numbers(of anything) but he's not a lightweight in the points department.
temoinlanuit wrote: What are thoughts right now on how to build/equip Belial? Sword of silence, lightning claws, or TH/SS?
I would go with the sword. It wounds anything that's not a vehicle on 2's, plus he really doesn't need the shield as much since he already has a 4++. I think the claws are probably the least good option. Sure he gets an extra attack with rerollable wounds, but he might still struggle against some targets. At least the hammer deals a lot of damage. Honestly all three are probably viable though. It may depend on what you are dropping Belial with.
If you bring him with knights I'd definitely take the sword.
no 3++ needed if you keep him positioned well.
And against vehicles the Knights will do the trick on their own.
There's a lot of talk about knights in here. DeathWing have never previously fared well as an assault army, and now they're slower than other armies. And now they have worse saves against most power weapons.
Russell's teapot wrote: There's a lot of talk about knights in here. DeathWing have never previously fared well as an assault army, and now they're slower than other armies. And now they have worse saves against most power weapons.
Has it really changed that much?
Being able to swing first even with powerfists is HUGE. It allows you to potentially kill what you attack before it can strike back. Also, Deathwing Termies (and other Termies in general) got an extra wound, so there will be less losing 2 models to a couple of lucky Guardsmen with flashlights...
As far as Knights go, they are strictly better than other Assault-oriented Termies. Those Maces are really brutal. I think they are better off riding in a Land Raider Crusader along with a Deathwing Ancient than trying to teleport in. I got really lucky in the game where I teleported them in, but that won't happen every game. It's probably more consistent to let them charge out of a metal bawks.
Definitely go with a Crusader. You can't take a character with your Knights in a Godhammer. And as for the Redeemer: no, just no. Even more expensive than a Godhammer for inferior weapons unless you would rather engage hordes instead of big baddies. And you really don't want your Land Raider getting close enough to the enemy to use the Flamestorm Cannons (although their overwatch would be disgusting...). The Crusader is under 300 points unless you take the optional Multi-melta, which I do recommend as it is a powerful weapon.
I played the LR Crusader in one game yesterday and its intimidation factor alone was very satisfying. My opponent had very little that could deal with it at all. The DW Knights inside did their job admirably too.
I've finally gotten my Deathwing army rolling, so this thread is golden. Good stuff, guys!
I haven't played with them yet, but I agree that Knights seem awfully tempting. They pack a ton of punch and have those invaluable storm shields to keep rolling through high AP fire and tough melee opponents. On the other hand, dropping in a bunch of storm bolters with Belial rerolls seems pretty devastating. I'm not sure there's enough room for both, though. Decisions, decisions.
On the topic of METAL BAWKS delivery systems, while the LRC seems great due to capacity, I think you'd be better off with a LR that has more threatening firepower. Scads of bolter shots is okay, I guess, but I'm not terribly impressed. I'm considering going with a Spartan (or two!), depending on the cost, and dropping Belial and friends in nearby before unleashing a charge.
I know it's probably not the absolute most competitive way to go, but I'm dedicated to a pure Deathwing army (only Terminators and tanks, baby!), with the possible exception of characters.
Dreads are a good and fluffy way to get some weapons with more punch for Deathwing. If you have 2-3 Dreads with Lascannons and either Missiles or Dreadnought Combat Weapons, you will be okay with a LRC. Indeed, a firebase of 2-4 Dreads with Azrael protecting them and giving them rerolls is a good strategy.
No off-hand autocannon? I like 4 vs 1 shot but I guess str 8 is pretty useful on the missile. What about venerable, worth it?
I looked at dreads but found the autolas predator came out to about the same price as a twinlas+twinauto dread but with more wounds and toughness. Of course the dread doesn't degrade and maybe that's not an optimal load for one.
Yes Deathwing knights are the best terminators and probably the best Dark Angels unit.of Shootywing wouldn't be any better than other chapter's terminators except for access to Belial and Ancient buffs.
I found the Crusader is not much of a threat after it's empty. The lascannon Land Raider is always terrifying; its ability to shoot Heavy weapons at full BS after moving makes it better than two laser Razorbacks. But I'll keep trying the Crusader, it could be worth it.
So how about we take the classic land raider with five knights and have the Dw ancient teleport strike into range, much the same as we might do with Belial and his shootynators. The DWK can then be driven up close so they're in better controlled conditions to charge and the rest can just port in close enough for auras to hit. The lascannons raider can then tactical retreat to a better distance for tank sniping. Ehh?
I like the Azrael-buffed dreads idea to some extent, but that seems like a crapload of points to have chilling in your backfield for a medium amount of firepower. They all have to be kind of clumped together, too. I'd rather just roll with 450-ish pts of Spartan, lascannoning the piss out of things and dumping essentially your whole army wherever they need to be. Maybe dropping a unit or two of Termies in your opponent's face will prevent your mega-tank from getting mercilessly focus fired. Like, consider a Belial and storm bolters drop plus Knights, a Champion, and an Apothecary rolling in the Spartan? Perhaps an Ancient, too?
I think I'm still missing the point on assault terminators...
So you get into combat, on turn 2 or 3 (perhaps turn 1) and each assault unit wipes out a squad - of chaff if your opponent has any sense. Then what? You're slow, the opponent is backing away, and has the rest of their army to light them up, or ignore them take out your fire Base to then concentrate on them later.
My point is, that with good use of terrain, and concentrated fire a shooty squad has a far better threat bubble than an assaulty squad. And is only marginally less good in combat.
Assay terminators look like one of those units that look good on paper, but fail to impact as you'd expect on the table.
So you get into combat, on turn 2 or 3 (perhaps turn 1) and each assault unit wipes out a squad - of chaff if your opponent has any sense. Then what? You're slow, the opponent is backing away, and has the rest of their army to light them up, or ignore them take out your fire Base to then concentrate on them later.
My point is, that with good use of terrain, and concentrated fire a shooty squad has a far better threat bubble than an assaulty squad. And is only marginally less good in combat.
Assay terminators look like one of those units that look good on paper, but fail to impact as you'd expect on the table.
It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.
As for the shooty terminators, you're paying for those power fists so if they're not using them they're a big waste. If you really believe threat bubble is critical, then you want assault marines or the new inceptors or ravenwing, not shooty terminators. tactical terminators illustrate why it's better to have specialized units and not try to do two things at once.
And this is all in the context of the balanced lists that will do better in 8th edition than (almost) any spam list. Terminators and other assault units will thrive only when backed up and balanced by long-range, durable shooting platforms: land raiders, razorbacks, dreadnoughts, or, even better, allies like Astra Millitarum artillery or my favorite Adeptus Mechanicus. These can clear away chaff units allowing deep-striking assault units to do their job.
axisofentropy wrote: It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.
I had a game where all the knights died to bolt pistols and a 5 man berzerker charge, so thats anecdotal evidence.
axisofentropy wrote: As for the shooty terminators, you're paying for those power fists so if they're not using them they're a big waste. If you really believe threat bubble is critical, then you want assault marines or the new inceptors or ravenwing, not shooty terminators. tactical terminators illustrate why it's better to have specialized units and not try to do two things at once.
Shooty terms can come down and thin out a lot of the enemy now with the amount of shots they put out, then walk forward and charge. I have no qualms about putting shooty terms into CC and with their shooting, they can do damage before the charge, and on over watch as well. I'm actually debating cutting out the knights all together in my list as they did nothing in my win other than die to a zerker charge.
I agree with Russel's teapot. I think shooty terms with their increased survivability, are going to give you the flexibility needed in this edition and with the auras/buffs you can put on them, like re-rolls. they are even better as shooty variants because they get double the bonus from them.
Instead of a backfield full of Dreadnoughts and Azrael, why not use Venerable Dreadnoughts? You'll hit 83% of the time instead of 89%, but you gain 6+ FNP and don't have a 180pt combat model chilling in your backfield. Seems like a worthy trade, assuming you're going to pin your opponent in his DZ, for the most part.
Hi Milkman - if you're running pure DeathWing you'll need Ven Dreads! But I still think that Azzy is needed with them to:
1) reroll stuff, because more special rules is still a thing; and
2) to actually have enough slots to take them (as there's loads of Elite choices there, and the other DeathWing HQ slots are pretty poor in comparison to Azzy)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just remembered the DeathWing mantra.
CONCENTRATE your fire
ASSAULT on your terms
BELIEVE in your armour
axisofentropy wrote: It's the Storm Shields. Played a game just yesterday where my deathwing knights took all the dark lance and disintegration cannon shots and kept marching forward. They can survive shooting just fine.
I had a game where all the knights died to bolt pistols and a 5 man berzerker charge, so thats anecdotal evidence.
You saw I was responding to a post comparing assault terminators to tactical, specifically their resilience to shooting. They have equally bad odds versus berserkers. Of course terminators shouldn't be in the same neighborhood as berzerkers; they're for the shooting half of your army to handle.
Would you put DWK in a LR? Seems like Vehicles main weakness is CC multi wound weapons, DWK could jump out and intercept an inbound assault force/Deep strike squad.
Still haven't gotten my first game in, but I'm aiming at this for a pure Deathwing list.
Belial (SoS+SB)
Asmodai
Deathwing Ancient (TH/SS)
3x Deathwing Squads (+1 Chainfist, +1 AC)
1x Deathwing Knight Squad
LRC (+MM)
2x Rifleman Dreads
The general idea is Belial, buffing both shooting and assault, wants to come in with the main DW drop to buff their initial shooting and wants to be around when they make contact in assault. So Belial, the Ancient, and the three DW squads come in hot open fire, and try to get at least one unit in close combat (spend a CP if necessary). Their initial shooting is actually pretty devastating against most infantry now (instead of being a series of wet slaps) and Belial ensures they are making those shots count.
Meanwhile, Asmodai and the Knights are packed in tot he LRC and making a beeline for the action. Asmodai has great synergy with the Knights and even better synergy if he can get near the ancient. This ensures that even if the DWK's need to divert, they are still getting their re-rolls (since they only care about hand-to-hand) and their bonus attack (very necessary if facing down larger tarpits).
And the rifleman dreads basically just focus down harder targets since 16 autocannon shots can threaten a great deal of potential targets while still allowing them to buzzsaw infantry if the enemy hasn't taken any beefier units like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.
The only main concern here is that most of my anti-vehicle is tied up in close combat on relatively slow units. Though the LRC's single MM is handy, it wont be doing much on its own and while the dreads are flexible, they lack the high-end oomph of twin lascannons.
Deathwing still look to be pretty niche and finicky in play, but I think they're probably in a better place than they've been in eons (yeah, not a high bar). I'll be interested to see how they do on the field. My group's meta usually isn't terribly vehicle heavy outside of our Tau player so this list should do well in that environment, and with vehicles getting a hefty price bump it may even be a larger trend in general (we'll see).
Incidentally, if you aren't super concerned about going pureDW, Razorbacks seem like a good potential anti-tank investment now. Twin lascannon and an H-K is all of 121 points on a beefy frame. Though in this list, the large number of elite slots being used was part of the point since it allowed for two detachments. So beware using DT's as filler units if you are trying to go for maximizing your possible CP's.
Yeah I just took a second look at asmodai too. He lacks mobility, but provides both buffs of Belial and a Deathwing Ancient, and provides them to all Dark Angels. The +1 Attack even stacks with the Ancient! I think He should be in most Land Raiders with Deathwing knights or, I'm thinking, company veterans.
I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.
An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.
I like the T-AC's volume of shots, but the missile launcher is growing on me at +2 to hit (potentially with reroll support). The cannon can push more wounds but will struggle more against t8 tanks. That's a decision for when you're down to you last few points maybe.
It is also concerning to leave them unprotected for melee... However since it was brought to my attention that the model cost in the back doesn't include any of their gear, dropping 40 points on a DCCW sounds rough.
Maybe a trio of Twinlas/missile, rifleman, and soldier(Twinauto/DCCW)?
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.
An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.
Isn't that another reason to have a character like Azrael in the backline? Not only does he make the Dreads harder to bring down with ranged attacks he also provides melee support.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.
An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.
I definitely think Azrael is worth it for the extra protection and rerolls he brings, plus the extra command point. In fact, if I had a lot of units near Azrael to benefit from his abilities, I'd stick a Primaris Lieutenant with them as well so that they could reroll 1's to wound. It's more points, but the more you have taking advantage of it, the better the value. By time you take that much stuff in one place, you are asking to get things dropped in your face, so bubble wrap accordingly, although staying in-faction limits our cheap bubble wrap units (Scouts maybe?).
Speaking of Primaris units, how does everyone feel about our Primaris stuff? Personally I think the Lieutenants are the best thing with their rerolls of 1's to wound. Not sure if the Ancient is worth it compared to a standard Ancient, although if he is hanging out in the backfield it could be worth him having the bolt rifle. The captain seems hard to use with no eligible transports. Rerolling 1's to hit is a decent ability, kind of a discount Azrael, but his CC-oriented loadout might be hard to utilize effectively with no delivery system. Intercessors seem like a solid gunline unit, possibly better than Tacticals if you are staying back. The lack of special weapon options means that they should just stay back and use the long range of their guns to best effect. Hellblasters are crazy expensive for what they do, although if they get within 15" and overcharge their guns somebody is going to have a bad time (their owner if they roll a lot of 1's, meaning this could be a good use of the Primaris captain...). Inceptors seem good, but again a little overcosted. 18 Heavy Bolter shots are nothing to sneeze at, plus they can "deep strike". How do the rest of you feel about the new shinies?
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm warming up to the idea of a (Venerable?) Dreadnought backfield, but preventing them from getting counter-dropped is an issue. I guess you could leave them with close combat weapons, but that largely defeats the purpose of having them around in the first place. Maybe just one of the 3-ish with a heavy flamer and CCW would be sufficient? Having Azrael back there would solve the problem, but he's damned expensive for that task. You could also run a Spartan for noticeably less firepower but a lot more durability.
An offshoot of that issue is what the Dreads should be armed with. Rifleman sounds like a reasonable option, but twin lascannons are hard to pass up. I'd also feel obligated to have a second heavy weapon on these guys since they're going to be fire support. That plan eliminates most of their combat ability, though, so as above, I'd probably pick one to have some close-quarters armaments, assuming I had multiple dreads to play with.
I definitely think Azrael is worth it for the extra protection and rerolls he brings, plus the extra command point. In fact, if I had a lot of units near Azrael to benefit from his abilities, I'd stick a Primaris Lieutenant with them as well so that they could reroll 1's to wound. It's more points, but the more you have taking advantage of it, the better the value. By time you take that much stuff in one place, you are asking to get things dropped in your face, so bubble wrap accordingly, although staying in-faction limits our cheap bubble wrap units (Scouts maybe?).
Speaking of Primaris units, how does everyone feel about our Primaris stuff? Personally I think the Lieutenants are the best thing with their rerolls of 1's to wound. Not sure if the Ancient is worth it compared to a standard Ancient, although if he is hanging out in the backfield it could be worth him having the bolt rifle. The captain seems hard to use with no eligible transports. Rerolling 1's to hit is a decent ability, kind of a discount Azrael, but his CC-oriented loadout might be hard to utilize effectively with no delivery system. Intercessors seem like a solid gunline unit, possibly better than Tacticals if you are staying back. The lack of special weapon options means that they should just stay back and use the long range of their guns to best effect. Hellblasters are crazy expensive for what they do, although if they get within 15" and overcharge their guns somebody is going to have a bad time (their owner if they roll a lot of 1's, meaning this could be a good use of the Primaris captain...). Inceptors seem good, but again a little overcosted. 18 Heavy Bolter shots are nothing to sneeze at, plus they can "deep strike". How do the rest of you feel about the new shinies?
Not really sure how 'Tarantula Sentry Guns' work however they seem cheep and shooty, they might be ok at blocking deep strike units at least for a turn or 2?
I actually just got my forgeworld books in the mail, and tarantulas stood out as potential big winners. That's a lot of really inexpensive firepower. 45pts for the assault cannon variant, in particular, seems like a steal.
Inceptors seem cool I dunno. Kind of expensive. More shots than HBdevs but not more shots than two units of them. Pods are expensive but now that you can load two half units into one you may not need as many. So I dunno. Kinda like having SM crisis suits, kinda. Seem a touch fragile for the cost, and 18 HB shots will have trouble "making back their points", but pinpoint tactical deletion can be valuable. Plus drop at 18" away into cover and don't get charged, they may work out.
Intercessors are nice alongside scouts and tacticals as an extra troop choice, solid anti infantry obj campers.
Lieutenants will always have a place buffing a firebase along with captains. Would like to see an inceptor style drop Lt too.
Hellblasters sound fun. Huge bubble of potential death, must needs a captain for reroll 1 support.
Hey I noticed something. Company veterans seem to be able to take both a storm shield and storm bolter (or combi Whatever). That's 7 points of gear on 16 point dudes. 23 points for 4 shots a d a 3++. Good? You tell me, all I'm sure of at this point is they're *interesting*. Send 9 down in a pod with a captain with similar gear and hose things down. I dunno though, I like the concept so I may have blinders on to the actual efficacy.
If I'm looking at 2k and I have
Belial
DW ancient
DWT modeled like DV x 3
DW Knights
Land raider
Ven dread with twinlas and missile
What do I take for the last 220 points or so? Can't decide what the list needs.
Maybe another character and an apothecary to heal up and bring back terminators.
Character wise I'd maybe go with Ezekiel. You don't have much in the backfield for Azreal to protect and Ezekiel could even run up with the knights inn the LR so he can aversion anything dangerous for his unit or the rest of the army. He's decent in CC and since it's 24" range you'll be able to hit his big stuff like devs, or knights etc
Hmm I could probably scrape up one more terminator, and he's pretty cheap with just a SB.
So Zeke will be ok just hoofing it along behind the the land raider? I guess advancing and using psychic powers don't interact so he could be running along trying to nuke dudes and debuffing.
That aura would add a third layer of buffs onto the whole blob of combat too.
Belial
DW ancient
DWT modeled like DV x 3
DW Knights
Land raider
Ven dread with twinlas and missile
This is basically what I had in mind but with a Spartan instead of the Dread and LR. I'd probably throw Ezekiel in there with the DWK to add some punch and perhaps make target priority a bit more challenging for your opponent. Does he shoot the termies in his face or the gunboat with a badass unit in it downfield?
Belial teleports in alongside the Terminators for some dakka fun and possibly a first-turn charge courtesy of CP rerolls. Meanwhile, the Knights, Ancient, Apothecary(?) and Zeke chug across the field in their Spartan, lascannons blasting merrily away. I'll have to figure the points, but fitting that into 2000 shouldn't be all that hard.
Hmm cool. Sounds similar then. I have a LR but no Spartan so if have to have Zeke running. Possibly some terminators depending on of its 50% models or 50% points for reserves.
Just did the math, Zeke and The apothecary took me to 2003 but I could switch the ancient to Twin claws to save 9 and spend the spare 6 on a HKM for the raider. Seeing as it only adds 2 models to paint and the DV librarian looks just like Zeke, I may go this route.
Melee-oriented Veterans? With the reduction in cost for Storm Shields (at least on non-characters) and power weapons, this may be a viable option now. I'll have to give it some thought.
MilkmanAl wrote: I haven't played with them yet, but I agree that Knights seem awfully tempting. They pack a ton of punch and have those invaluable storm shields to keep rolling through high AP fire and tough melee opponents. On the other hand, dropping in a bunch of storm bolters with Belial rerolls seems pretty devastating. I'm not sure there's enough room for both, though. Decisions, decisions.
At 2k, in addition to Belial and an Int. Chap. in Term. Arm., you can fit two shooty squads with a CML/CF each and a squad of DWK and TH/SS terminators with a LRC for each assaulty squad.
How does everyone feel about kind of a "mechanized infantry" type build for DA? I'm talking about several Tactical, Assault, or Devastator Squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks, with characters to give them buffs and some Ravenwing bikes to add additional mobile punch. It would be kind of like the Battle Company lists of 7th, except without the free transport cheese (the transports are there, but they are paid for now). Mainly I want to get some mileage out of some of the squads and transports I assembled for my 7th edition Battle Company list but then never got to use. A couple of Assault Squads on foot with 2 flamers in each, some plasma/combiplasma and melta/combimelta tactical squads, and perhaps one of my favorites, devs with 4 gravcannons. I have built a list in Battlescribe using this concept together with a nice batch of heavy firepower clustered around Azrael. I can post it here if people think this concept is workable.
ZergSmasher wrote: How does everyone feel about kind of a "mechanized infantry" type build for DA? I'm talking about several Tactical, Assault, or Devastator Squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks, with characters to give them buffs and some Ravenwing bikes to add additional mobile punch. It would be kind of like the Battle Company lists of 7th, except without the free transport cheese (the transports are there, but they are paid for now). Mainly I want to get some mileage out of some of the squads and transports I assembled for my 7th edition Battle Company list but then never got to use. A couple of Assault Squads on foot with 2 flamers in each, some plasma/combiplasma and melta/combimelta tactical squads, and perhaps one of my favorites, devs with 4 gravcannons. I have built a list in Battlescribe using this concept together with a nice batch of heavy firepower clustered around Azrael. I can post it here if people think this concept is workable.
I am in this exact same boat, with over 50 painted Tac/Assault squads and ten Razorbacks with ACs. I would like to run a pod, grav devs, two razors, 3 tac squads with either flamers or plasma, and then add either Ravenwing or Deathwing elements.
How do people like Sammael? Is he and a few large Black Knight squads viable for helping Green Wing?
I think other chapters can do a lot of those mechanised armies better. A good Dark Angels green wing army would do things that Ultramarines can't, like the Dark Shroud's -1 to hit bubble and Azreal's 4++ field bubble. These both work on all nearby Dark Angels. Both of them pair well with dreadnaughts (check Forgeworld), Razorbacks, devastators, and Land Raiders. Round out 2000 points with Deathwing knights or black knights.
axisofentropy wrote: I think other chapters can do a lot of those mechanised armies better. A good Dark Angels green wing army would do things that Ultramarines can't, like the Dark Shroud's -1 to hit bubble and Azreal's 4++ field bubble. These both work on all nearby Dark Angels. Both of them pair well with dreadnaughts (check Forgeworld), Razorbacks, devastators, and Land Raiders. Round out 2000 points with Deathwing knights or black knights.
You're probably right. Still, I wonder if there's some middle ground to be had here. If nothing else, a Darkshroud could protect the metal boxes as they move up the field, then protect at least some of the guys inside after they disembark. And there would still be points left for Azrael + a few Dreads/Preds in the backfield.
Speaking of Darkshrouds, does their -1 to hit bubble apply during Overwatch? Meaning that targeting units inside its bubble would therefore require a 7+ and be unable to hit? I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now, but I'm curious.
I'm still very new and unsure about list-building in 8th, but my old Battle Company had an allied Knight Warden and it worked well as a hard-hitting force. Can I still ally my Warden in, or has that all changed?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I'm still very new and unsure about list-building in 8th, but my old Battle Company had an allied Knight Warden and it worked well as a hard-hitting force. Can I still ally my Warden in, or has that all changed?
Since it has the Imperium keyword it should be fine!
Speaking of Darkshrouds, does their -1 to hit bubble apply during Overwatch? Meaning that targeting units inside its bubble would therefore require a 7+ and be unable to hit? I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now, but I'm curious.
overwatch ignores modifiers, positive and negative. (I'm not yet sure which rerolls apply.)
With regards to ravenwing biker squads. What are the loads outs people are having success with?
Personally, I think chainswords over bolt pistols might be a way to go. Especially if there is a RW Ancient with them. The ability for RW to shoot forward straight into CC seems like it might be good. I'm also not so sure about having 2 meltaguns in the squad anymore. Not sure what I'd add (maybe flamers or grav-guns).
How did I miss that even the regular bikers could trade in their pistols for chainswords? That might have come in handy in a recent game. I still agree that even with chainswords Ravenwing bikes should try to stay out of combat if possible. The problem is that their weapons kind of require them to get danger close for full effect, especially flamers and meltaguns. Black Knights seem like they are decent in melee, though, especially if there's a Ravenwing Ancient nearby. With the cost increase of Ravenwing units across the board, I'm not sure that an all-Ravenwing army is really viable anymore unfortunately.
Speaking of, I'm pretty unhappy with the huge points increase for our Land Speeders. A speeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Launcher costs as much as a Dreadnought with Missiles and Twin Lascannons. I'd take the Dread every single time given the choice. The only advantage I can see a speeder having is mobility, but since they are made of cardboard I'm not sure they'll survive being attacked long enough to make use of that mobility. Is there a good way to make them work?
Hi all, I've been flirting with the idea of running a DA successor chapter alongside Cypher and some Fallen. Wondering if there are any real advantages or disadvantages to doing so?
Fluff idea is that Cypher and/or some Fallen leader have infiltrated the chapter, and turned their way of thinking, to realise the DA are the actual Traitors and the Fallen are the good guys, regardless of the actual truth.
In real world terms, it's a way for me to run my Black Reach/Battle Of Vedros marines with minimal painting, as well as being able to use the metal Cypher I got before they were discontinued. Have 5 regular marines from the Kill Team box whom I've stuck on some DA shoulder pads and painted to match my Cypher. Mainly played BA for loyalist marines, but the Fallen idea appeals.
Edit: I've also got the Dark Vengeance captain bloke, and wouldn't be opposed to getting the whole box set as I'm also trying to build up a decent Chaos list.
craggy wrote: Hi all, I've been flirting with the idea of running a DA successor chapter alongside Cypher and some Fallen. Wondering if there are any real advantages or disadvantages to doing so?
Fluff idea is that Cypher and/or some Fallen leader have infiltrated the chapter, and turned their way of thinking, to realise the DA are the actual Traitors and the Fallen are the good guys, regardless of the actual truth.
In real world terms, it's a way for me to run my Black Reach/Battle Of Vedros marines with minimal painting, as well as being able to use the metal Cypher I got before they were discontinued. Have 5 regular marines from the Kill Team box whom I've stuck on some DA shoulder pads and painted to match my Cypher. Mainly played BA for loyalist marines, but the Fallen idea appeals.
Edit: I've also got the Dark Vengeance captain bloke, and wouldn't be opposed to getting the whole box set as I'm also trying to build up a decent Chaos list.
Sounds interesting. But the down side is that Cypher and the Fallen can not use any of the transports..so they are foot slogging it. IF your going fluffy with it, then no Librarians as they are often use to spot Cypher and Fallen. I am looking at doing a list kinda of like this as well, for fun. Right now I have a full 5th co and Deathwing company as well. 8th gives so many options.
How do we feel about the Darkshroud? They used to be a must-take, at least for Ravenwing armies (2+ rerollable jink saves will be sorely missed). Is the 6" bubble of -1 to hit worth the price tag?
Hello. I am new to the game but have been painting miniatures for years and have decided to finally put together a viable army to field. Having some rudimentary, non-game play knowledge of the game I decided it best to consult with more seasoned and wiser players for feedback. Any constructive criticisms you can throw at me is greatly appreciated.
Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Azreal
Ezekiel
Primaris LT
Troops: 4 x 5 man Tac Squads with Plasma guns
Sgts w/ BP & CS 5 man Scout Squad with Sniper rifles & cloaks
Flyers: Dark Shroud
Dark Talon
Vanguard Detachment:
HQ: Belial
Elites: Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Dreadnought, 2x T-LC Dreadnought, 2x T-AC This is an attempt at a combined arms, “all-comers” list. The idea is to create a “Bubble of Death” with the overlapping benefits of Azrael, Zeek, the LT, and the Shroud matched with the Dreadnoughts firepower. Ideally, I’d also be able to snuggle the snipers into the bubble as well depending on the mission. The Tac squads would establish a defensive perimeter around the “Bubble” to prevent in-close deepstrikes and to slow down any charging hordes that might threaten the ordinance. Tac squads could also be used to secure objectives as well depending on the mission. Belial and his Deathwing element would deepstrike to deal with dangerous enemy elements. While the Dark talon would provide air support where needed. Thanks in advance for any help.
The first 8th GT was won by a 6 flyer list, so that -1 to hit must be pretty damn good. My first Deathwing list contained 3 venerable dreads for anti tank, but I can get 3 flyers, any combination of dark talons/nephilims for almost the same points cost and they can be just as brutal for anti tank, plus they have the mobility that my terminators don't have.
I've been running pure deathwing, and I've had pretty good luck with 2 TH/SS and 3 bolters per squad (with a CML). I ran this very successfully
At 2k I had six squads like that, a terminator librarian (I should get an Ezekiel model), and Belial.
The addition of the shields makes all the squads pretty tough and versatile, and with any extra points I can throw in some Watchers in the Dark, to help protect against smite spam.
Ravenwing will do better once events start using Maelstrom objectives and progressive scoring. NOVA will probably have this, and the ITC missions will be updated soon. For now, try playing Ravenwing in Maelstrom with your friends!
I haven't had a ton of games yet in 8th but from what I can tell Azrael is probably the most reliable character to build around this edition. He's really good. I really like what some have been suggesting the synergies with the gun venerable dreads and the dark shroud seems interesting.
However I don't feel you can play this edition with a pure gun line if people are using a decent amount of terrain. You will likely need some mobile pressure part of the army. I haven't been able to decide if that's bikes, terms or just more marines in razorbacks. What have you folks been doing? Something tells me it's between razors or Bikes. They stand out to me. Terminators seem good but still a little expensive. But termies are infantry so can work with objectives and the relic better than bikes. What has been your guys' experience?
Question about the Darkshroud. My reading of the Icon of Old Caliban rule would allow them to stack. The rules says -1 for shooting attacks against Dark Angels w/in 6" of this model rather than the more usual within 6" of a Darkshroud or Icon of Old Caliban. Thoughts?
Also, while I haven't played with the math yet, stacking bonus attacks on to Knights with flails seems like a keen way to mince hordes (well, anything with one wound really). That carryover on the damage is pretty awesome IMO. I need to run the numbers and set the damage potential next to lost shooting before I decide for sure, but it seems good.
On the weekend I played my first big game of 8th with my Dark Angels. As we wanted to get straight to playing we decided on powerlevels (150 to give us a chance to try as many things out as we can) my list was:-
Battalion
Azrael
Ezekiel
10 tacticals with combiplas, plasgun, plascannon
10 tacticals with powerfist/plaspistol, flamer, missile launcher
5 sniper scouts
razorback (las, twinplas)
6 bikers (flamer, melta)
Venerable dred twin las, twin ac Dark talon
Vanguard
Belial
Ancient
apothecary
dw champion
2 x dw terminator squads (1 assault cannon, 1 plas cannon
dw knights
LR Redeemer
I was up against a guard player who brought more tanks than ive seen for a looong time. cant remember what was exaclty his list but there was at least 4 Leman russ (including the tank commander, a demolisher, hydra, 3w or four squads in chimeras and a manticore.
Was playing the hold the relic mission and i have to say that wow!!! tanks are hard to kill........
However, while i wasnt actually killing much, my plan of castling the tacs, azrael, razor back and dred on the objective, while the bikes ran interference and the terminators (all deepstriking, decided to just use the redeemer as a road block as the objective was my side of a bridge) worked very well indeed, and although we ran out of time in the end it was pretty close either way when we stopped.
Things I learnt:-
NEVER leave home without Azrael....he is astoundlingly good.
If using terminators....Always get belial and the ancient standard bearer termies with rerolls and extra attacks are viscious.
Terminators are about a millions times better than they have been for a long time and are much harder to kill. At one point one of my units took the combined firepower of 3 leman russ and the hydra before it had even lost a wound let alone a model.
On a related note, the extra wound for bikers makes a huge difference.
Do not underestimate the dark talon...the rift cannon was incredibly useful against that many tanks.
Ramming people with redeemers assault launchers is very good fun.
Tactical marines can be very very good when supported with a character or two.
Ezekiel was ok but our psychic powers seem much more situational than other lists.
If i add a dark shroud ill have a firebase that should be really really hard to shift.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In reply to those discussing stacking dark shrouds...the new faq prevents it (basically -1 regardless of how many dark talons)
I really want to get a dark talon. The model seems super useful now. I always loved the model but in 7th it seemed so useless.
I'm also really liking the idea of a dark shroud now too. Has anyone toyed with the different speeders in general? I know some people have made a pretty convincing case for speeders with heavy flamers. I'm thinking a couple missile launcher heavy bolter speeders could be pretty solid with Azrael's buffs. Thoughts?
Well, all i can say is i liked the dark talon model so much i bought it when it was released....was ok but now its going to be a staple in my lists i think. Hurricane bolters are great and the stasis bomb..oh my its nasty.
With speeders you really want to keep em moving, im not sure that other than the shroud its really worth them hanging around azrael over say a venerable dred or two.
flamer ones could certainly getsome use for clearance of bubble wrap units for your termies though
Yeah, I've ordered a second venerable dread for that reason. They seem to be the best option for hanging back and shooting. I think the dark talon will be one of my next orders! It seems like a great multipurpose tool for clearing horde and single model units.
GrimDork wrote: The DT does seem cool. I like it better than the chibihawk aesthetically.
I wonder if I could properly convert my land speeder storm into a dark shroud...
I'd be happier with the models if they weren't covered in extraneous gothic shenanigans.The DT especially looks like it flew through Nagash's laundry line on its way to the battle.
Was playing the hold the relic mission and i have to say that wow!!! tanks are hard to kill........
Automatically Appended Next Post: In reply to those discussing stacking dark shrouds...the new faq prevents it (basically -1 regardless of how many dark talons)
After giving it a go and loving it, I realized my Spartan plan is illegal, thanks to the Relic rule, which basically makes you take an additional 800+ points of stuff in a super-heavy detachment to get access to relic Lord's of war. Wonderful design, FW. In any event, I guess that makes a dreadnought backfield the default plan. I'm going to give twin Las/ccw dreads a go since that's what I have on hand at the moment. I'm counting on it being a fair amount of shooting and backfield objective camping combined with reasonable drop denial. Getting counter-charge by a couple Dreadnoughts doesn't seem so fun.
Yeah, the Azrael kill bubble gunline thing is pretty solid, but one problem I had in a recent game was having 30 Ork Boyz use Da Jump and then assault into the dreads. They only did one wound to one of them, but on the next turn the dreads had to lose their shooting to back away so my other units could clear out the boyz. What kind of units work well as bubble wrap for Azzy and friends?
So I have been working on a 1500 point Vanguard list for DA. I'm hoping to put pressure on one side of my opponents army with the bikes/talon/termies/razor while my shooty back field takes out key targets. What do you all think?
I'm wondering right away if the bikes just wouldn't be better as another five man tac with a razorback maybe tech'd out a little differently with plasma.
Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.
Araablane wrote:
I thought the same but there is no Company master in the index, or im just blind?
On page 107 it says to use the Captain dataslate for a Company Master.
labmouse42 wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.
Belial lets them reroll misses, and a 2 is not a miss until the -1 modifier is applied AFTER the re-roll. So it's the same effect as any Captain letting them re-roll 1's.
labmouse42 wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.
Belial lets them reroll misses, and a 2 is not a miss until the -1 modifier is applied AFTER the re-roll. So it's the same effect as any Captain letting them re-roll 1's.
Belial does help Dark Angels Librarians tho...
Thanks for the catch. That's still not bad.
I was debating a list with 2 dreads, Belial, and 3 units of deathwing deep striking. The dreads provide long range support, and the termies appear where they need to.
I'm also really impressed by the ancient. It increases the melee damage output by 50%. When combined with Belial, it means a 10 man terminator squad with 9 PFs, is doing this vs MEQ.
(3/4 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 27 attacks = 2025/144 (14.06) plus
(8/9 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 4 attacks = 160/108 (1.48).
This is a total of over 15 wounds per round to a MEQ squad. That's crazy overkill. If you run the numbers against tanks, you will get similar results.
The hitting 3/4 of the time with Belial and getting 3 attacks with the ancient are massive buffs to deathwing.
Edit : Does the Anclient and Asmodai stack? Would that be 4 attacks base per model and 5 for the serg?
So what are the units of choice to go in the Azreal death blob? Dreads, razors, some mix? I assume you need to also either teleport terminators or get some bikes to handle nuisances or objectives down field yes?
Do we guard it with scouts, or maybe small tactical squads with double flamers to try and speed bump +and burn) charging units?
Also, if you're taking a Deathwing ancient to boost your terminators do you keep him stock, cheap out with the claws, or spring for the shield and hammer? Does the answer change if he's by Belial?
I usually use Dreads and a Las Predator with Azrael. If there's room to put Azrael and those units next to a ruin, I put some Las Devastators up there. Of course, that makes more of a gunline list, but the more stuff in his bubble the better.
Hmm. I have 4 dreads I was stockpiling for whatever reason a ways back so that kinda works. Kinda fluffs out like a council of ancients taking the field.
So I assume smacking a darkshroud and maybe a primaris Lt as a cherry on top couldn't hurt. I'll have to play around with what fits in the 6" bubble.
Can't go wrong with an LT. Darkshround would be nice as well, but good luck getting all of that to get all of the benefits (there's only so much room for all those models to be within 6" of each other).
I'm thinking Darkshrouds will be necessary for Ravenwing lists, as they are almost as expensive as Terminators (if they have special weapons) yet are just as easy to kill if not more so. Unfortunately, the more I look at the index the more I'm convinced that the days of competitive pure-Ravenwing lists are over. That being said, the flyers are actually looking BOSS for the first time in, like, ever.
labmouse42 wrote: Does the Anclient and Asmodai stack? Would that be 4 attacks base per model and 5 for the serg?
yes and yes! Asmodai will probably ride in every Land Raider and Drop Pod I ever field.
GrimDork wrote:So what are the units of choice to go in the Azreal death blob? Dreads, razors, some mix? I assume you need to also either teleport terminators or get some bikes to handle nuisances or objectives down field yes?
This is a great question I intend to answer after next week's ATC tournament. Centurions aren't an option, so Predators would be the obvious answer but 102 points is just too much. Razorbacks are most efficient, but it's obviously hard to squeeze so many both within 6" and within the fire lane you want. Dreadnoughts are probably the sweet spot: 5 points more than a razorback holding twice as many weapons, easy to fit in bubbles, 8 wounds doesn't degrade and is mitigated by Azreal's 4++ and dark shroud's -1, and can land more Melee blows than tanks.
With re-rolls, I don't think the Venerable dread is worth the extra 20 points, but I'll math it out. With the 6+ FNP it effectively has 9.3 Wounds...
But the best parking lot may be a mixture. Maybe a Land Raider up front, 2-4 dreads on the sides, darkshroud in the back? Maybe a razorback or two full of Devastators? Do Land Speeders have a niche here with these buffs?
And what options will Primaris stuff provide? efficient transports full of Hellblasters? Primaris dreadnought? Rumored Primaris devastators to fill the Centurion-shaped hole in the Dark Angels faction?
GrimDork wrote:Do we guard it with scouts, or maybe small tactical squads with double flamers to try and speed bump +and burn) charging units?
You know I'm hot for Deathwing Knights, but I don't know what's the best answer here. Jump pack Assault Squads? Imperial Knights?
GrimDork wrote:Also, if you're taking a Deathwing ancient to boost your terminators do you keep him stock, cheap out with the claws, or spring for the shield and hammer? Does the answer change if he's by Belial?
Storm Shield every day. It's a lifesaver. Might even be the best choice for Belial, tho that Sword of Silence is hot for the -1 to Hit.
Bonus pic of my Ancient I just finished:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
axisofentropy wrote: With re-rolls, I don't think the Venerable dread is worth the extra 20 points, but I'll math it out. With the 6+ FNP it effectively has 9.3 Wounds...
Let's say the best dread loadout for a bubbled parking lot is twin lascannon and twin autocannon. That totals, um, 30 melta bombs plus 3 points. A Venerable Dreadnought with the same wargear is about 11.6% more expensive. Does the +1 to hit and 6+ FNP justify it's cost?
With re-rolls from a Chapter Master, how many more hits will it land?
BS 3+ with re-roll lands 32 of 36 hits.
BS 2+ with re-roll lands 35 of 36 hits, an 8.6% increase.
That's marginal, but it also makes the shooting more consistent and predictable, which competitive players value.
The 6+ FNP makes it 16% more durable, so yes the Venerable Dread is probably worth the extra points. (unless your threat model contains only Imperial Knights' Reaper Chainswords!)
Another factor harder to quantify: Concentrating your investment into a smaller footprint also has some value. It's easier to fit 8 Venerable Dreads in a bubble than 9 normal dreads for the same price.
Let's also consider the Forgeworld Mortis dreadnought. It's 5 points more than the basic dread, but can equip both twin lascannons. That's many more Wounds against tough models, but less against 1 and 2 Wound models.
BS 2+ with re-roll lands 35 of 36 hits, an 8.6% increase.
That's marginal, but it also makes the shooting more consistent and predictable, which competitive players value.
The 6+ FNP makes it 16% more durable, so yes the Venerable Dread is probably worth the extra points. (unless your threat model contains only Imperial Knights' Reaper Chainswords!)
Another factor harder to quantify: Concentrating your investment into a smaller footprint also has some value. It's easier to fit 8 Venerable Dreads in a bubble than 9 normal dreads for the same price.
Ven dreads can also move and shoot their heavy weapons at a 3+ instead of a 4+. That's pretty significant.
With rerolling 1s to hit, they hit (1/9) + (6/9) = 7/9 (77.77%)
Normal dreads, when rerolling 1s to hit are this.
(1/12 + 6/12) = 7/12 (58.33333 % to hit)
That's a pretty big jump in damage output for only ~13% cost. Sure, there might times where your models stand still, but you will be moving often enough to make this matter.
Edit Compare the ven dread with twin LC and twin AC to a squad of hacos (as they can take ACs).
The havocs, to have 8 wounds clock in at 194 for the two AC and two LC options. The ven dread hits more often, has a higher toughness, and can move and shoot with the same accuracy as the static havocs.
It's a really good deal if you are looking for raw firepower.
Agree with the above. I'm leaning more and more towards Ven Dread as a backfield staple. That may change if Relic rules get "fixed," but it sure is tough to ignore that kind of firepower and durability. Backed up with Azrael and/or with CCWs, they're pretty unlikely to get dropped on, too.
BTW, enjoy your new Deathwing dudes, labmouse. Hopefully they serve you well!
edit: Also, what's this I hear about DA flyer spam being a popular option? I suppose I can see how multiple Dark Talons could really tear some stuff up for a reasonable cost. Nephilim are not too shabby for the price, either. Perhaps worth a shot for those of us trying to get a competitive army going.
I've only got one venerable dread so far but I'm definitely getting another. They are so incredibly dependable with Azrael in both damage and defensive ability. My backfield is going to be two ven dreads and a pred annihilator. Now that I feel I have armor/monsters figured out. Need a way to fit in some anti horde. I'm thinking razorbacks with twin assault cannons filled with flamer stocked tac squads and maybe a dark talon. The Dark Talon seems really solid this edition. I cannot wait for the model I ordered to come in. It's good multi purposed vehicle.
I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.
Why Deathwing?
There are a few reasons the deathwing army is the best 'terminator' army IMHO. It is not the cheapest -- that goes to CSM terminators. Deathwatch terminators can bring a lot more firepower by stacking on 3 heavy weapons per 5 terminators.
Deathwing shines in it's ability to benefit from fantastic auras, and the ability to mix and match weapons in it's deathwing squads. Deathwing knights are the superior assault terminator unit.
Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round. Even more marines are prone to failing badly given those odds, where deathwing just don't care.
The way 8th edition was made, there is an advantage to running large units. You can already split fire, you reduce your drops, and you make it harder to give up first blood.
Large units can also increase your footprint, making it easier to take advantage of auras.
Azrael
This guy is amazing for his buff auras. Not many units give reroll all hits. First glance shows that Pedro and Marneus are the only others.
Azrael also gives a 4++ to all models near him. This is amazing with dreads. The reason for this is that most weapons that can hurt the T7 at range have a greater rend than a -1.
Take an enemy LC. Instead of saving on a 6+, the dread has a 4+ to make the save, greatly increasing it's overall durability.
This does not help against massive small arms fire, like conscripts blobs shooting at the dread, but those are not the big threat to the dread -- multi-wound weapons are.
As an added bonus, Azrael is a beatstick. Swinging 5 times at STR 6, with -3 rend and D3 wounds is enough to make even daemon princes sweat.
He also comes with a combi-plas, just because he was not good enough by himself.
Overall, this guy is a 'must have' more many builds.
Belial
What I like about Belial is that he gives all Deathwing rerolls 'to hit'. If you are running lots of terminators or Librarians it's a nice advantage.
His Sword of Silence is also much better than it appears at first glance. It will be hitting 35/36 of the time. It also wounds non-vehicles on a 2+, making it great against enemy terminators, great daemons, etc. The -3 rend and 2 wounds is rock solid, meaning that Belial can pretty consistently throw wounds on a target.
Belial can also drop in with some knights if you are wanting to deep strike an assault force behind enemy lines.
Overall, he's a good choice. IMHO, Azrael is just a little better for only 40 more points -- but Belial is not a bad choice at all.
Asmodai & Deathwing Ancient
This guys are force multipliers if you are running deathwing units. Having both of them plus Belial/Azrael means that your deathwing become close combat monsters.
I showed some of the math earlier -- 9 powerfists/chainfists smashing with 4 attacks each hitting 75% of the time will wreck face. This is what it will do against a knight, for example.
(3/4 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 36 attacks * 2 wounds per attack = 22.5 wounds done. The power sword should pluck off another .61 of a wound.
Deathwing Apothecary
This guy runs you 75 points, and you can use him to restore 50 points deathwing models 50% of the time.
He will likely have ~4 turns to be effective in a game. (You might go first, you might not have any models to revive, etc)
This means you can expect him to bring back ~100 points of deathwing models. Since they come back at 1 wound it's not as good, but it's still not bad.
Effectively, this guy will pay for himself in most games, making the model effectively free.
Deathwing Champion
I'm not sold on this guy. If he is by the attack buffs, he's getting 7 attacks at STR 7, -4 AP, 2 DMG -- which can put some hurting on most targets.
The thing is, in today's meta of 150 conscripts -- it's just not that amazing. If the melta starts showing a lot more MEQ, then this guy becomes great fast. For example, it will rip apart bike squads.
Deathwing Terminators
Terminators have gotten so much better in 8th edition. The 2+ save is more valuable than it was before. They have also doubled in firepower and doubled in wounds.
8 storm bolters and 2 assault cannons within 12" of an enemy with Belial supporting results in 17.50 dead GEQ a turn. Fully buffed, they can also kill another 24.4 GEQ in assault, wiping 4/5 of a conscript blob in one round. Yes, those situations are very unlikely to happen in a real game, but the illustration is they have decent damage output. Not fantastic damage output like Scions, but decent.
These guys, in every way, are better than their imperial versions. They come with unforgiven, they can grab a 'watcher in the dark' for 5 points.
They also can swap out any model with a TH/SS or dual LC. This lets you mix/match your terminator squads to include a few TH/SS models inside. If the unit is hit by a plasma cannon, take the hit on the TH/SS termie. If it's from a heavy bolter, take it on a SB/PF termie.
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.
The Mace of Absolution makes thunder hammers cry themselves to sleep. They are only -2 instead of -3 rend, but they are not -1 to hit. This means that they are slightly better against armor -- and cost 11 points less than the TH/SS terminator. The only target where the TH is better is against 2+ save targets, like Land Raiders or other terminators.
I've seen how effective the threat of 5 knights deep striking can be. It forces your enemy to adjust their lines, and I can see a spot for 5 of these guys in every army.
Dreadnoughts
Excellent fire platforms, given their ability to reroll to hits. Normally I advocate putting a DCCW on each one as to not waste the attacks -- but in a deathwing army there are enough power fists to where I think you can get away with not bringing them on these guys.
I really like these guys more than predators as fire platforms for their smaller base. Getting 5 of them wrapped around Azrael is very doable.
DarkShrounds
Imagine this is a force field around your units. The buff they provide is very solid as a -1 to hit will reduce the amount of incoming damage from 16.66% less to half. Smart opponents will just shoot the darkshround first.
labmouse42 wrote: I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.
This is great! I've added this post to this thread's OP, and I've also updated it with my own unit summaries:
* Deathwing Knights are the stars of the faction. They effectively pay 18 points for a mace that's generally better than a Thunder Hammer, and Storm Shields keep them on the table.
* Belial and a Deathwing Ancient are the best characters to join Deathwing Knights, nearly doubling their damage output.
* But if mobility isn't a factor, Asmodai is the star buffing HQ, giving all Dark Angels infantry the same bonuses Belial and the Ancient give the Deathwing. The +1 Attack even stacks! And bonus -1 Leadership to enemies.
* Azreal is probably the best Chapter Master (who isn't also a Primarch.) He's best deployed managing a parking lot in the backfield. Park him next to Dreadnoughts (including Venerable and Mortis!), Razorbacks, Predators, etc. Dark Angels in his 6" bubble re-roll misses and are protected by the 4++. See this recent post: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/727176.page#9478048
* Speaking of, Dreadnoughts are excellent shooting weapon platforms. 8 Wounds is tough but doesn't degrade. Note that upgrading to a Venerable is worth the premium cost. And consider a Forgeworld Mortis for all the Lascannons.
* Scouts are still an incredible value. Conscripts wish they could deploy 9" away from enemies.
* The Darkshroud's -1 to hit bubble is even better than it first sounds. It effectively makes nearby Dark Angels 1/3 more durable against BS 4+ shooting and 25% more durable against 3+ shooting. A must for any parking lot or Ravenwing army.
UNITS i want to playtest and give a chance:
* Ravenwing still offer mobility, we'll see how valuable that is in new missions. Sammeal is good in this context.
* Dark Angel librarians must use Interromancy which is not as good as Librarius (which I think is OP). But Interromancy can help against powerful units like Knights. ditto Ezekiel who finally gets an invulnerable save. needs playtesting.
* Deathwing Terminators are not as good as Deathwing Knights and you're not gonna convince me otherwise. You're paying for those power fists so they must reach melee to make their points back, and Knights do Melee better. No, Storm bolters and assault cannons do not make them as good: other units can shoot hoards more efficiently (hint: razorbacks and dreads.)
* Missile Launchers are now very good, and Devastator Squads may be the best way to field them, but they need range and cover for protection.
* Assault Squads and Company veterans are worth considering. A veteran with two free chainswords has 4 Attacks!
* land raider doesn't have a clear advantage over Rhinos or razorbacks now, and if i want to park a monster on an objective i'll bring a Knight. The lascannon Land Raider may still may have a place. The Crusader is not enough of a threat once empty, and the Redeemer will find itself unable to shoot when mooks run up and tag it.
* Not yet sure how valuable flyers are, but they probably have a niche somewhere.
UNITS that will stay on the shelf:
* tactical squads still worse than scouts unless I'm totally missing the mark on transports. I mean they may compliment razorbacks if they're as good as i think?
* Predators?? like razorbacks but without transport and much more expensive for no good reason.
* Inceptors, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are all too expensive for now, but could fill broad niches with points decreases.
* land speeders: 85 points is 20 too many, compare to razorback or dreadnought value.
* dreadnoughts with short-range weapons can't ride in normal drop pods, and the Forgeworld pods are too expensive.
* who would i even want to put in a drop pod??
* The -1 To Hit when moving with Heavy weapons means the Attack Bike can't leverage its mobility. Ditto the Landspeeders.
* interrogator-chaplains not worth premium over chaplains (except Asmodai who's incredible.)
I think only the Knight Master gets a Flail of the Unforgiven, not the rest of the DW Knights. They get the maces. Believe me, these guys are still rock solid contenders and beat vanilla Assault Termies by a country mile. Also, now I'm going to have to pick up Asmodai. I never bothered before because he sucked, but now I think I need him. He's the only DA special character I don't have.
Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round.
Well yeah, you don't have to worry about the morale check after losing 7 terminators in a single squad in 1 round, but you got much worse issues to deal with instead.
labmouse42 wrote: Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.
Only the Knight Master gets the flail, the rest of the knights use the maces. 5 flails would be ridiculously OP in CC, and they are already good in CC as it is.
ZergSmasher wrote: Also, now I'm going to have to pick up Asmodai. I never bothered before because he sucked, but now I think I need him. He's the only DA special character I don't have.
bobafett012 wrote: Well yeah, you don't have to worry about the morale check after losing 7 terminators in a single squad in 1 round, but you got much worse issues to deal with instead.
Suffering 350 points of model damage in an alpha strike sucks, but it happens.
Last night my opponent had 4 Kastelan robots with triple phosphor blasters. That's 72 STR 6, -2 AP shots with Cawl behind them letting them reroll 1s. He also had a Cerastus Knight-Atropos and 6 destroyers throwing another 30 heavy grav cannon shots.
That is completely capable of killing 7 terminators in a round. Unforgiven means that there is no way they will roll badly and lose another 150 points of terminators in the morale phase.
bobafett012 wrote: Only the Knight Master gets the flail, the rest of the knights use the maces. 5 flails would be ridiculously OP in CC, and they are already good in CC as it is.
I haven't tried a 10 man unit of deathwing yet but it is going to happen soon. As far as i can see the main advantages are increased value from the unforgiven rule, less deployment choices so increased chance of going first, a much more durable unit that will be a considerable threat that your opponent will have to react to and lastly its easier in my experience to cover one unit with character buffs than two.
Yes there is an element of "all eggs in one basket" here but overall i believe it will be worth it. hopefully ill be able to try this out tomorrow and report back.
axisofentropy wrote: Convince me to field terminators in units larger than 5 models.
More units means more charge rolls.
8th edition encourages you to field larger units.
* You can split fire. There is no 'wasted shots' like in earlier editions
* You lower your drop count, greatly increasing the chance of going first
* You lower your changes of giving up first blood
* It helps you get in auras. If you have 1 terminator within 6" of Azrael, the other 9 can be outside and you can still gain the perks of the 4++ and reroll to hits.
* In missions that use kill points, fewer squads means fewer KPs you give up. (This is partially addressed by the ETC)
* 3 dreadnaughts starting on the table would let you drop 30 terminators in from deep strike.
There are some advantages to MSU * You can spread your squads out
* You sometimes don't need more than 5 terminators. Generally 5 knights can do the job.
* You are less likely to have models away from being able to effect their target.
At the end of the day, it's up to you. In the ways that I see 8th edition, larger squads are the way to go.
I hadn't considered adding in even a single ss/th to block high AP shots. Costs a few more points and eats into your storm bolter output but blocking a TEQ killer like overcharged plasma, melta, etc could be a big deal.
That's seems like a reasonable plan. I may have to give that a try. Saving yourself a Terminator or two could really make a huge difference, and if your tank guy survives, he may get to eat a few wounds against some combat monster your opponent throws at them, as well. I was thinking you could divert shots by having a unit of DWK drop nearby, but split fire eliminates that plan, for the most part. That is, I'd imagine the anti-TEQ stuff would train on the Termies, while everything else went to the Knights.
* It helps you get in auras. If you have 1 terminator within 6" of Azrael, the other 9 can be outside and you can still gain the perks of the 4++ and reroll to hits.
Sadly, the 4++ benefit specifies that models within 6" of Azrael get it, so no joy there. However, the To Hit Rerolls happen if even one model from a unit is within 6", which is awesome! Believe me, Azrael is still probably the best thing in our codex.
I'm going to have to consider the big termie blob. Seems reasonably good. Problem is, I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.
I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.
It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.
If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.
Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.
axisofentropy wrote: Convince me to field terminators in units larger than 5 models.
More units means more charge rolls.
I think taking Deathwing in larger than 5 man squads is a terrible idea outside of allying them into another force or just in a general Dark Angels force. In a Deathwing heavy army, very bad idea. Cons far outweigh the Pros in that scenario.
The Mortis dreadnought can now take an additional Cyclone Missile Launcher. I think that makes it the most efficient heavy weapon platform for parking lot armies. 30 melta bomb points of weapons on a 15 melta bomb point model is a hell of a ratio. Azreal and a dark shroud can protect that investment.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.
I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.
It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.
If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.
Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.
I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.
It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.
If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.
Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.
Honestly, it seems like just another spammy, cheesy list, and I personally wouldn't want to play against it again. That doesn't answer your question if you're gung-ho on beating it, but it just doesn't sound like a good time. Just another example of players spamming one powerful unit over and over again, regardless of what edition we're playing.
I think you could compete against that with a balanced Deathwing list. It's definitely rough to take that many mortal wounds per turn, though. You'd have to get fancy. I'm betting a Ven Dread backfield could reliably take out at least 1 prince per turn, and a drop of ~10 stormbolter-toting Termies could probably dakka down another without much trouble. If you were fortunate with positioning, you could take out still another with a drop charge (supported by a CP reroll, if necessary). It's an uphill battle and bad matchup, for sure, but there are ways to win.
Glad to see them fix it so quickly, it was so foolish that it must have been an oversight. Gonna buy one for my green marines now!
Heck yeah! I plan on rolling one into battle most of the time, for sure.
I've come around to this Azrael/Dread combo, and I'm trying to figure out what I can cram in a Spartan to accompany them. So far, I have a core of the following:
That leaves 604 pts to play with. I'd like to squeeze an Ancient and an Apothecary in that space, which would cost 204 pts (127 for a chainfisting Ancient and 77 for the Apothecary). That'd allow for 8 DWK in the Spartan along with Belial and the elite characters. That's my leading option, though I'd also like to remove the Apoth and Ancient and shrink the DWK unit in favor of a Termie squad to deep strike on something for some extra horde control.
Ideally, I'd keep Azrael near enough the Spartan to keep it in 4++ range since that'll obviously be priority one for opponents. With so few units, the overall strategy is pretty straightforward: roll up the field, blast stuff with lascannons, and unload a world of hurt on something that deserves it once the Spartan is close enough. Thoughts?
ZergSmasher wrote: Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.
Firstly, the DP spam is a bad RPS for pure terminators. The fact that talons do 2 wounds a hit is bad news for terminators, as it means they are effectively 50 point models. If you are running pure deathwing, it might be fluffy, it's also a spammy army, and there will be bad matchups with any spam. DPs are one. I played my buddies bike army with DP army and tabled him 4 times in a row -- and he was rated the top marine player in the ITC for a good portion of last year.
The best solution is to run a conscript squad with a single commissar lord in front of your deathwing. Screens are a thing in 8th. Not only does it block smite spam, it also gives you protection against deep striking scions, it lets you throw bodies at objectives, it soaks up all kinds of incoming damage. It also counts as 2 drops, letting you deep strike in more units. And, the best thing, is that it's dirt cheap. 50 conscripts plus a commissar lord clocks in at just over 200 points, ensuring you have ~1800 points for your terminators. It's pretty cheap in RL prices too to get 50 guard.
Smite has to target the closest unit, no matter if they are in assault or not. Even if he attacks the guard with his nurglings, the conscripts will hold them in place. For giggles add 'iron hand' striken and a priest to your allied group to give the conscript blob 3 attacks each in assault and FRFSRF. Nothing is as shocking as having 15 guard throw 45 attacks at your daemons!!! That happened to me last weekend and I was like "WTF" as my GUO was taking tons of damage. Even hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s, with so many attacks they get through. It would also wreck nurglings day.
This would also give you 4 drops, allowing you to drop your terminators into the game where you wanted as a deep strike, which is a great option.
Another thing that makes me sweat bullets is someone throwing lascannons at my greater daemons. Even my GUO - who is my quarterback of my daemon force, it's not a good feeling with the LCs start flying. That's because they do 3.5 wounds per hit. Even though 1/3 of them will DR, those LCs that get through rack up fast. 4 LC hits is about 6 wounds on my GUO, halfway killing him. Do you know what could do this and wreck my daemon's day? 3 Twin-LC/Twin-AC ven dreads with azrael in the middle Princes also fear 5 PFs coming in -- especially with rerolling hits.
MilkmanAl wrote: I've come around to this Azrael/Dread combo, and I'm trying to figure out what I can cram in a Spartan to accompany them. So far, I have a core of the following:
That leaves 604 pts to play with. I'd like to squeeze an Ancient and an Apothecary in that space, which would cost 204 pts (127 for a chainfisting Ancient and 77 for the Apothecary). That'd allow for 8 DWK in the Spartan along with Belial and the elite characters. That's my leading option, though I'd also like to remove the Apoth and Ancient and shrink the DWK unit in favor of a Termie squad to deep strike on something for some extra horde control.
Ideally, I'd keep Azrael near enough the Spartan to keep it in 4++ range since that'll obviously be priority one for opponents. With so few units, the overall strategy is pretty straightforward: roll up the field, blast stuff with lascannons, and unload a world of hurt on something that deserves it once the Spartan is close enough. Thoughts?
Do you need that many Lascannon shots in a list? That's 14 shots per turn right and unless you are going up against and all armoured/monster list you will run out of targets? That is allot of points for D6 wounds on 1-2 wound targets...
I am no expert however would it be worth looking at Autocannons for the Dreads jus to have a more balanced shooting phase?
It could also be challenging to score objective points as apart from the Spartan nothing else can quickly move around. I wonder if you would be better off dropping a Dread and squeezing in a unit of DWT, you can DS them in to grab an objective and they can still put out some pain in the shooting phase?
Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.
MilkmanAl wrote: Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.
Yeah, as Gibs said, there is no reason you'd need to bring that many las cannons and then only run 600 points of actual terms. If you want more anti-tank, then drop the DCCWs and run either missiles or twin auto cannons as the other arm. that gives you around 1200 points for terms/apoths and such to work with. imo, you need at least 4 5 man squads of terms. Less than that gets real dicey. The only Deathwing lists that used to be somewhat successful with less squads did so because they ran tri LRCs filled with TH/SS terms and rushed across the table unscathed, and even that wasn't exactly "successful".
MilkmanAl wrote: Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.
Yeah, as Gibs said, there is no reason you'd need to bring that many las cannons and then only run 600 points of actual terms. If you want more anti-tank, then drop the DCCWs and run either missiles or twin auto cannons as the other arm. that gives you around 1200 points for terms/apoths and such to work with. imo, you need at least 4 5 man squads of terms. Less than that gets real dicey. The only Deathwing lists that used to be somewhat successful with less squads did so because they ran tri LRCs filled with TH/SS terms and rushed across the table unscathed, and even that wasn't exactly "successful".
The Spartan on its own has enough firepower to nullify 1-2 large threats per turn given you can split fire the Lascannons (4 per target). The problem if you sit back is that you have another 500+ points sitting inside doing nothing, so really you want the Spartan pushing forward which then means Azrael on foot simply will not keep up. Personally I feel you are best to drop the Spartan in favour of a LRC and equip the Dreads with Las and auto sitting with Azrael for the 4+, then use the rest of the points to get more DWT units. Alternatively drop all bar 1 of the Dreads (las + auto) and Azrael and focus on getting more Terminator units to provide an increased board presence in support of the Spartan. I would keep one Dread so that you can viably split fire the Spartan and then use the Las on the Dread to finish a key target without have to overkill it.
I feel you are falling into the same trap as myself in building lists, as a new player I just want to take all the big stuff because it is cool. It is possible, however I am quickly realising that is not the best way to build a viable all comers army list.
I feel you are falling into the same trap as myself in building lists, as a new player I just want to take all the big stuff because it is cool.
Ha! Guilty as charged, my man! This is my first foray outside of Tau for a long time, and it's a lot of fun playing with all the new toys. In case it wasn't obvious, I'm pretty determined to run a Spartan unless it just turns out to be absolutely terrible. We'll see how it goes!
While we are on the subject of Deathwing builds, how does this sound?
Detachment 1: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Belial
Elites:
5 Deathwing Terminators w/Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing Terminators w/Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing Knights w/Watcher in the Dark
Deathwing Ancient w/Hammer & Shield
Deathwing Apothecary
Heavy Support:
Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta
Detachment 2: Air Wing Detachment
Nephilim Jetfighter w/Twin Lascannon
Nephilim Jetfighter w/Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Total 1999 points if 3 Chainfists are taken in the Termie squads, 5 Command Points
The flyers provide some heavy firepower while the termies mulch softer targets with their storm bolters and assault cannons. The Land Raider has the Knights and Ancient in it. The Apothecary waits until turn 2 to drop so he can heal a unit that takes fire on the first turn. With such a low number of drops, I feel like this list will go first a lot. My main concern, though, is the low model count, meaning every casualty really hurts. Thoughts?
This is currently what im thinking for a Deathwing list:
HQ:
Bellial - Bolter and Sword of Silence
Azrael - Lions Wrath, Sword of Secrets
Elites:
DW Terminator x 5, assault cannon
DW Terminator x5, assault terminator
DW Knights x5
DW Ancient (Thunder Hammer and Storm if points allow)
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Las
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Las
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Autocanon
Heavy Support:
Land Raider Redeemer - Flamestorm x2, twin assault canon.
Set up:
Azrael and the 3 ven dreds in backfield as range support. CCw and flamer to prevent/deal with deepstriking charges. Azrael for obvious reasons.
DWK, Bellial and Ancient in Redeemer moving up the field.
DWT x2, Teleporting in maybe turn 2/3 behind the enemies back while they distracted with the bigger units. Lots of dakka from the bolters and assault cannon, plus charge with PFs.
has the potential to take more dakka on the dreds as well if facing more marine based armies.
Also could drop the land raider and bring 3 troops to switch detachment if I need more command points.
Just need to buy myself 3 ven dreds and an auto canon, have everything else already. Is Forgeworld the only place to get the canon?
Thoughts on the list? I think its a decent all-rounder. Good anti-infantry, very good CC, some heavy hitters for Armour.
Here's the parking lot list I'm workshopping, in two parts of one 2000 point Battalion Detachment:
Azreal
Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Ravenwing Dark Shroud - Heavy Bolter
That's the parking lot. At full strength, the dreads can do an average of 30 damage to Imperial Knights each turn. If the dreads stay within 6" of both Azreal and the Dark Shroud, they re-roll misses and are protected by 4++ and -1 to shoot. Is that enough to protect this 900 point dreadnought investment?
Then the rest of the detachment screens and goes for objectives:
5 Company Veterans - 4 with 2 chainswords each, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter
5 Company Veterans - 4 with 2 chainswords each, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter
5 Scouts, maybe knives?
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
I know, this could probably be accomplished better by conscripts or other Imperials. I really wish I could use Fenrisian Wolves or even Death Company. But these Dark Angels at least have a chance at Azreal's bonus bubbles in some missions or in first turns. Maybe combine two of the Scout squads to 10 models to conga line? Or three squads of 6-7?
I'm thinking about dropping the land raider in my list for 3x razorbacks, one twasscan-back and two lasbacks. Similar cost, similar firepower. I have (iirc) 3 DWT squads and one unit of knights who were gonna ride in the raider. I'm thinking of dropping one DWT squad to get some company vets in the assault cannon razorback to go with azmodai. Just chance the DWK making their charge after porting. If they miss they can soak a lot of fire while the other guys get the work done. Then azmodai meets the teleport team (including Belial and an ancient probably) in the middle for all the glorious synergy.
Of course then I have to decide if I want to keep my vendread with the lasbacks or readjust there too. If I trade some termies for company vets I'll have some wiggle room.
I'm starting to wonder if Dark Angels could run a flyer-heavy list like the one that won that GT a little while back. Like 2 Air Wing detachments with 4 Nephys and 2 Dark Talons. That would come to about 1100 points or so, leaving room for some ground troops or even a Darkshroud for a potential -2 to hit the flyers (at least when they move close enough to it). I'm not sure I'd try that but maybe it could work?
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm starting to wonder if Dark Angels could run a flyer-heavy list like the one that won that GT a little while back. Like 2 Air Wing detachments with 4 Nephys and 2 Dark Talons. That would come to about 1100 points or so, leaving room for some ground troops or even a Darkshroud for a potential -2 to hit the flyers (at least when they move close enough to it). I'm not sure I'd try that but maybe it could work?
I personally wouldn't advocate for more flyer spam, and against some lists with AA you're pretty roasted.
I'm doing an escalation type league with some friends and Ravenwing is my choice (they've been sitting around waiting to be painted for awhile). I do have other DAs to add later, but going to finish the RW first. I'm definitely seeing the issue of weapon choice as you don't always want to get in so close to units if you're not going to get the charge. Melta is not what it used to be, as it's difficult to knock out a tank/monster with just a few shots, and the Attack Bike has really taken a hit with the -1 to hit when moving.
I have one unit of 3 bikes with 2 meltas right now and figured the 2 MM attack bikes would just ride shotgun with it to add to the melta shots on one target. The problem is that you are now having to get really close to do damage, so picking on an already damaged unit would be better. Due to points, I was actually considring adding combi-flamer on the sgt (just didn't have the points for combi-melta) just as a little defence to be counter charged after getting into melta range.
Also running plasma bikers and think these are a great medium range unit and can really lay down some FP when they do get within 12" with all the bolter shots, plasmas and combi-plasma on sgt. Each unit would be supported by a LS tornado with HB and AC for more shots.
I'm pretty disappointed in the LS really and the typhoon is super expensive (as someone else said...why not take a dread instead?) Only advantage with the LS (if it survives) is that it can leave combat and still shoot.
What believe the RW list lacks is good ranged firepower and so I'm considering adding 2 Nephilim fighters with twin las to the mix. Each nephilim is the same cost as a LS tornado and MMAB and I feel that is a fair trade off. The Dark Talon is a great weapon too, but I feel that what the RW list lacks is best made up by the Nephilim. Hitting transports from range to strip wounds, then let the melta bikes finish it off, while black knights/plasma bikers handle the occupants will hopefully be viable.
Sammy with Black knights, apothecary, ancient and darkshroud is definitely a great mix IMHO. Saw a guy advocate overscharging the plasma talons on these guys after always advancing (5+ jink) but only rerolling the 1s that miss instead of any 2s (you have a choice on reroll). Going to miss quite a few that roll 2s and 3's, but decent damage otherwise. Hate the idea of losing a BK to a roll of a 1 though...50pts a pop. Guess that's what the apothecary is for.
As for the DS, I plan to only ever take the HB with it as I never plan to shoot. Always advancing to get the 5+ jink to keep it alive seems so much more useful as it's their purely for the -1 to hit.
I'm also conidering putting the Vengeance back on the table. It's cheaper than a Typhoon, more survivable and armed with an assault cannon too can dish out some decent pain. Does 2 damage on regular fire and 3 on overcharge, it's not too shabby, especially if within 6" of Sammy.
My second HQ choice is going to be the Librarian....not really because of the DA powers as such, but more for the Deny the Witch roll...as Smite is just too easy to kill expensive RW bikers.
Has anyone else tried an Assault Squad with 2 flamers, riding in a Rhino/Razorback? I tried it and it really didn't do much. For all that everyone says about how good Flamers are in 8th, they seem very swingy. It didn't help that in a recent game, the one time they got shots off with the flamers they rolled double 1's for number of shots. Maybe that has soured my opinion of Assault squads. Maybe they really need Jump Packs this edition? Or maybe I just need to try it again.
Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.
I do think Company Veterans with double Chainswords might have a niche in transports, like Razorbacks that would otherwise be empty. Maybe thunder hammers on veteran sergeants. Maybe a flamer, but those S4 hits from a flamer end up costing more than more models with double Chainswords.
I'm looking at 5 company vets to go with Asmodai as a bodyguard in case his razor gets shot down while he's in transit to my teleporting terminators blob. Doesn't hurt that they can get to 5 attacks with two chainsword and the aura for no additional points. Ideally I'd spare then a couple of storm shields and maybe a Thammer on the sgt but points are thin and i feel like turn 1 HKs may be more useful.
axisofentropy wrote: Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.
What about Inceptors? Granted they cost a boatload of points, but they seem like they hit pretty hard on the charge, especially with a 50% chance to cause at least one mortal wound. Those assault bolters throw out plenty of dakka as well. Another fast unit that gets base 2 attacks on the charge is Ravenwing Black Knights. 14" move plus 2d6 charge is not too shabby, plus they get an Assault 2 plasma talon. I'm debating running 3 of them with Sammael and a Champion (because the Blade of Caliban is just nuts now). Really I'd like to run more of them, but I only have 3 Black Knight models.
That's the problem with Dark Angels in melee; all of our decent melee units are fairly expensive in points. Other armies have much cheaper assault troops, like Tyranids with 10-point Genestealers and Orks with big blobs of Boyz with 4 attacks each. And don't get me started on Khorne Berzerkers. We need to win the game in the shooting phase more than the charge and fight phases.
What about Inceptors? Granted they cost a boatload of points, but they seem like they hit pretty hard on the charge, especially with a 50% chance to cause at least one mortal wound. Those assault bolters throw out plenty of dakka as well.
That's the problem with Dark Angels in melee; all of our decent melee units are fairly expensive in points. Other armies have much cheaper assault troops, like Tyranids with 10-point Genestealers and Orks with big blobs of Boyz with 4 attacks each. And don't get me started on Khorne Berzerkers. We need to win the game in the shooting phase more than the charge and fight phases.
They are 225 points for 3 models...they will not see any play (other than fun games) until GW prices them right, until then they are garbage.
Dark angels have never been known as a CC army. Do we have units that can CC decently well in a pinch or are pretty expensive (knights), sure, but If you want good CC Marines, you need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels, probably Black Templars too once the SM book comes out and they get some special rules.
On paper veterans seem pretty decent. Each have two attacks. You can give them a chainsword or two, so they can be upward of four attacks each. Play them with Asmodai for an added attack and rerolls and they could be pretty damaging. They are also fairly cheap. Im thinking about playing some with a chainsword and plasma pistol each.
I feel like Veterans are too squishy to be a good assault unit. Or at least that they must get the charge, as they'll fold quick if they get hit by a dedicated assault unit. I'd prefer my veterans with shooty weapons to kill things from a distance. They may be one unit that can benefit from a Drop Pod, as they can take a bunch of special weapons and drop them in your opponent's face.
Basically the non-codex answer to sternguard, without access to special issue bolters, but most other stuff like spamming combis.
I suspect my guys will start out dual wielding chainswords and eventually end up spamming combis and riding down in my one finished pod before it's over.
axisofentropy wrote: Trip report: ATC just finished and I won half my games, tabling two opponents. Deathwing Knights are real.
Good to know that the Sons of the Lion can kick ass and take names even at the big events. Although I hope the guys you tabled weren't some of my buddies who went to that event...
I am concerned that the new Space Marine codex is really going to have a serious edge over our guys soon, and that we're gonna be in for a long wait for our own book. Probably next year.
The Dark Angels were my first army back in 2nd Edition, and I've stayed loyal to them over the years (although I stayed out of 7th Ed). I took a 2,000 point Dark Angels army to my town's first 8th Edition tournament this past weekend. I have to admit that the driving force in my list building was nostalgia: I picked things because I liked them and I lacked discipline. My force had two detachments. The first was a Battalion led by Azrael, supported by a Librarian on a bike. Two full Tactical Squads and a Scout Squad with sniper rifles were the core, backed up by three Ravenwing Black Knights, a Nephilim Jetfighter and a five-man Devastator Squad. The second detachment was a Vanguard led by Belial, supported by a Deathwing Champion, five Deathwing Knights and five Deathwing Terminators. I figured that I would face a lot of power armour lists and that drove the details of my list along with emotional attachment to certain figures.
We played three games: my first was against Chaos while the second and third were both against Orcs. I will post elsewhere with details of the games, but I came 2nd out of 32 players and won all three games. It is very early, but I will offer some observations on my units and tactics:
a. The Deathwing Knights were great. They were let down a little in the first game by poor charge rolls, but against the Orcs they were whirlwinds of death. Led by Belial they can kill pretty much anything.
b. Belial is amazing. Placed correctly he made the Deathwing detachment a beast. The Champion racked up an impressive number of kills, but I think that the points would have been better spent on an Ancient.
c. The normal Deathwing were great, although I should have put a Storm Shield in there. There firepower is great, especially if Belial is giving re-rolls.
d. I used the Deathwing Terminators, the Knights, Belial and the Champion as an integrated team. They beamed in together, with the Terminators softening up targets with firepower. Keeping them together limited flexibility, but dramatically increased combat power and resilience. Two Deathwing Vanguard Detachments could be fun. Belial would lead a shooty one while a Chaplain would lead a close combat one.
e. The Librarian on a bike, created by mercilessly cutting my old Codicier in half with bolt cutters, was a bit of a disappointment. His lack of an invul save is an issue.
d. The Tactical Squads did just fine, with missile launchers and bolters helping to thin the Orc numbers in support of my heavy hitters. The Scouts attracted plenty of firepower and took down a Weirdboy.
e. The Devastators were great in game one, were virtually wiped out by Boom Bombs in game two and wiped out by Stormboyz in game three. I think that they might work better in a full squad of ten to have more resilience. I will also try dropping them for a Predator. I deployed them poorly in game three and I also forgot to use the Signum. Oops.
f. The Nephilim was my mobile reserve of firepower, softening up targets for assaults. He was a flying lawnmower against Orcs. He also took down a wounded Demon Prince. I'll try a Dark Talon, but the Nephilim certainly earned its salt.
g. The Ravenwing Black Knights were a bit of a disappointment, but this is probably because they didn't really fit in the army. Against Chaos they did great (supercharging with Azrael nearby), but against the Orcs they were a bit of a liability. I will not shelve the Black Knights, though, as they probably work better in a proper Ravenwing list.
h. Finally, Azrael is simply amazing. I hadn't used the model since 2nd Ed, but he has certainly shaken the dust off! The re-rolls are great, his save bubble wonderful and he is no slouch in close combat.
Its early, but I'm pretty happy with the Dark Angels so far. The Deathwing certainly seem viable. I thought I was toast against the Orc hordes (each had three units of 30), but the combination of firepower, Deathwing Knight close combat and Belial was great. With an Ancient it would have been even better.
Got max points in my first three games against Genestealer Cult and Tyranids, Leman Russ parking lot, and 12 robots. But then the second day I got tabled by 4 Renegade knights, Smite spam demons, and Tyranids.
Yeah, Smite spam is a real pain for a lot of lists, especially small elite ones like Deathwing. Watchers are okay, but they only provide protection from one Smite and then they're gone. And even that is not a sure thing. Don't get me wrong, a Watcher is totally worth the 5 points for the protection they give, but there is very little anyone can do against 8+ Smites per turn.
Have many of you guys run full ravenwing this edition? I will be honest... guilty of only reading back a couple pages :/
I have been considering them since 7th. I mainly just really like Black Knight models. and the Landspeeder vengeance (despite its lack lusterness in 7th)
Reading quickly through some perks getting a shroud, sammuel, and an ancient around you can get a pretty decent ball rolling with a few aura bonuses.
After reading the cool new flavors of space marines, im curious as to how they will approach the dark angels. It seems like they are all flavorful and useful abilities for the most part. I just hope they dont get to us and say 'okay this is the +1 to leadership chapter'. .. lol
I think an all ravenwing army has some potential we have alot of cool tools there. Sammael seems very useful this edition. I bikes to be a bit more expensive than i want them to be. But there are tactical uses for sure.
Sammeal is good and the dark shroud may be the best dark Angel unit after Azreal. But the -1 to shoot Heavy weapons prevents attack bikes and Land speeders from leveraging their movement, and the other bike units try to fill too many niches that are better covered by things like assault Marines or vehicles.
That said, a Ravenwing army will do very well in a Maelstrom format
axisofentropy wrote: Sammeal is good and the dark shroud may be the best dark Angel unit after Azreal. But the -1 to shoot Heavy weapons prevents attack bikes and Land speeders from leveraging their movement, and the other bike units try to fill too many niches that are better covered by things like assault Marines or vehicles.
That said, a Ravenwing army will do very well in a Maelstrom format
I am finding my Ravenwing Landspeeders a little underwhelming right now, due in no small part to the -1 to hit when moving that you bring up. The Ravenwing Knights have been great against enemies in power armour, but they struggled against hordes. I'm retooling my Ravenwing and I am planning to run an all-Ravenwing force in the next two weeks.
An all-Ravenwing should probably have a mix of:
Sammeal
Dark Shroud[s]
Black Knights
Bikers with special weapons and maybe combi-weapons
A Dark Talon or three (saw a lot of these at ATC)
Maybe an Ancient or Apothecary or Librarian but not necessarily.
If taking a Flyer Wing, I think a good mix of Nephilims and Dark Talons would work well. I'm figuring on running 2 Nephys with Lascannons and a Dark Talon myself one of these days. With how strong flyers are in this edition I feel like that combo would do some work.
ZergSmasher wrote: If taking a Flyer Wing, I think a good mix of Nephilims and Dark Talons would work well. I'm figuring on running 2 Nephys with Lascannons and a Dark Talon myself one of these days. With how strong flyers are in this edition I feel like that combo would do some work.
My one Nephilim did great work at the tournament last weekend (just have to remember that Stormboyz can charge it...) The Nephilim filled the role my Landspeeders used to do as I armed it with an Avenger Mega Bolter. I will try a Dark Talon soon: it should get better results against armies with high-value targets such as Terminators and the like while the Hurricane Bolters can do some damage against horder. I am looking at Flyer Detachment: its quite a points investment but it could be useful as support to a Ravenwing force instead of a bunch of Landspeeders.
I just got 3 dark talons/nephiliums yesterday. I'm going to try to run all 3 in a game i'm playing sunday. 2 Nephs, and 1 Dark talon is what i'm thinking. Arming the nephs for anti tank with the twin las cannon, plus missiles, and the Dark Talon is no anti armor slouch either with the rift cannon. Plus they both have anti-infantry/horde weapons as well. The fact that flyers no longer need facing to shoot at whatever they want, while very goofy, makes them very good. So, anyways, we'll see what happens this weekend.
I just had a game with a friend today. It was his first 8th edition game. We used 2000 point lists with the restriction of no duplications on Elites, FA, or HS choices (for a casual tournament he's going to soon). Here's my list:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Company Master in Gravis Armor
Ezekiel
Troops:
5 Intercessors
5 Intercessors
10 Tactical Marines with Plasmagun, Combiplasma, and Plasma Cannon, combat squadded with Plasma/Combi in one unit, 4 bolters and PC in other
Fast Attack:
5 Assault Marines with 2 flamers and Plasma pistol
Heavy Support:
5 Hellblasters
Dedicated Transport:
Razorback with Twin AC Razorback with Twin HB Detachment 2: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Belial
Elites:
5 Deathwing Terminators with Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Knights with Watcher in the Dark
Deathwing Ancient with TH/SS Deathwing Apothecary
My opponent was running a Genestealer Cult list:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Patriarch with 2 Familiars
Primus
Acolyte Iconward
Troops:
10 Neophytes with 2 Mining Lasers, 2 Grenade Launchers
10 Neophytes with 2 Mining Lasers, 2 Grenade Launchers
10 Neophytes with 2 Mining Lasers, 2 Grenade Launchers
10 Acolytes with 2 Demolition Charges and some other stuff
Elites:
20 Purestrain Genestealers
8 Aberrants with Power Hammers
Fast Attack:
3 Armored Sentinels with Lascannons
Heavy Support:
1 Leman Russ with Vanquisher Cannon, Lascannon, and 2 Multimelta sponsons
Dedicated Transports:
Goliath Truck with Twin Autocannon
Goliath Truck with Twin Autocannon
Goliath Truck with Twin Autocannon
Chimera with 2 Heavy Bolters
He went first and I failed to sieze. He rolled poorly on his Cult Ambush table, then picked off a few models but didn't kill anything completely on his first turn, which hurt him. I dropped all of my Deathwing in on turn 1, with the Knights and Ancient behind his lines looking at his Sentinels, and all the others looking at the Genestealers. I killed several Genestealers on turn 1 with shooting, then successfully charged them with my Terminators and Belial, killing all but four in total. I also killed all but one of the Acolytes on turn 1 with a combination of shooting and melee, causing the last one to flee and netting me First Blood. The DW Knights failed their charge badly enough it wasn't worth burning a command point. They ended up being a big zero all game as my opponent just kited them and killed all of them over a couple of turns. The Ancient gave it up and ran behind the lines where he remained and netted me Linebreaker. Over the next few turns we shot at each other and got into plenty of melee combats. I won't report everyting other than the highlights. I shot up the Aberrants a little bit on one turn after they destroyed all of my regular Deathwing guys on turn 3. Also on turn 3, Belial was a real champ with his parrying blade and my opponent rolled very poorly, missing all but one attack which Belial saved. He had taken a couple of wounds from the Purestrains, though. On turn 4 he chopped up the Patriarch for Slay the Warlord. The Aberrants also got unlucky and only got one attack through the saves on my Gravis CM. He then killed them all over a couple of turns with his gun fist. We traded a lot of units back and forth and ultimately at the end of a full 7 turns, I only had Belial, Ezekiel, the Apothecary, and the Ancient left on the board. My opponent had his Leman Russ, one of the trucks, the Sentinels, and one of the Neophyte squads. I did win though, with 14 points (11 Killpoints, plus StW, FB, and LB). My opponent had 12 points (11 Killpoints, plus LB), so it was close. I really got lucky with my saves and my opponent's dice just crapped on him on the final turn, so to me luck more than skill won me the day.
My takeaway:
Belial is a must-take for Deathwing for sure. I know we've all established that pretty well in this thread, but this game just reinforced it in my head.
Deathwing Knights really do need a Land Raider to work reliably, especially if an Ancient accompanies them. Otherwise if they fail their initial charge the opponent can just kite them and kill them at his leisure as terminators are too slow to catch most things.
Ezekiel is pretty solid. His weapons are better than those available to a standard Librarian, and he is fairly durable with his 2+ save and 4++ invul.
Gravis Captain is also a solid pick. He gets lots of CC attacks, has a choice of melee weapon to tailor for his enemies, and don't underestimate that 3-shot pistol weapon built into his fist. The reroll-1's ability is great for accompanying Hellblasters or other things than like to overcharge their plasma weapons.
Intercessors can really do some work in shooting or CC. Those Bolt Rifles are much better than boltguns, and they get extra wounds and attacks over a Tactical squad. Tacs still have their uses, but I'm definitely going to keep using my Primaris guys.
Deathwing as a whole look quite strong, although I'm not sure an all-Deathwing army will do that well due to low model count. While my DW Knights didn't kill anything, they were an effective distraction and drew plenty of fire that could have killed my other stuff much quicker. 2+/3++ is no joke.
Vehicles are great for tying up other vehicles in combat. I played demolition derby with one of my Razorbacks that was on its last wound, successfully charging a Goliath. That kept it from shooting in the next turn, which helped my guys live a little longer.
Plasma cannons are very swingy and unreliable and I probably won't use them much in the future. Was worth trying though.
Thanks for the ravenwing advice gents. For my first 2k list I am most likely going to run the following. Once the actual book comes out and we hopefully have a perk for taking all <ravenwing> I will switch the knight out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It could potentially be better though, to drop the ancient in favor of more bodies on the table. If i drop some of the upgrades. I could fit 10 Ravenwing bikes (or a full squad w/ assault bike). Which could be better with a lower model count list with the knight setup.
So, i want to make a DW army, right now i have:
2x Dark Vengeance terminators (heavy has swappable weapons).
1x DW knights.
What should i buy next, going to get 2 boxes of something and Belial (or should i aim for some other HQ?). I was thinking Ven. dreads 2x, or 1 Venerable and box of terminators for making apothecary, ancient.
Have Greewning, Predator, scouts and DV set DA thats going to be the filler for until i get a decent list.
Araablane wrote: So, i want to make a DW army, right now i have:
2x Dark Vengeance terminators (heavy has swappable weapons).
1x DW knights.
What should i buy next, going to get 2 boxes of something and Belial (or should i aim for some other HQ?). I was thinking Ven. dreads 2x, or 1 Venerable and box of terminators for making apothecary, ancient.
Have Greewning, Predator, scouts and DV set DA thats going to be the filler for until i get a decent list.
The core of my Deathwing is Belial, a unit of Deathwing Terminators and a unit of Deathwing Knights. Based on what you have, getting Belial and two boxes of the Deathwing Command Squad will get you a decent core. Since you have two DW Terminators and a DW Knight already you could make an Ancient, Apothecary and Champion as well. This would get you going with DW, and you could add support as you see fit.
Little bit confused, so you are recommending to get 2x DW boxes so i could make Ancient, Apothecary and Champion.
I should be able to make them from one box or i should make second box into regular DW?
Also i need some units on the board that can handle tanks and other nasty things thats why i was thinking Ven. dread for support.
So I know there's been a lot of talk about DW army list and Dreads but, as I have A LOT of greenwing left over from my (sorely missed) Lion's Blade days in 7th I've been trying to come up with a decent list. This is what I've come to after a couple of games. I will change this as I get different models but this is purely models I own. I do have a lot though and can change this up as needed.
Battalion Detachment
Ezekiel
Primaris LT - Power Sword
Scout squad x 3 with boltguns
Darkshroud
Dark Talon
Razorback x3 - all TL asscan
Spearhead Detachment
Azrael
Techmarin with conversion beamer/axe
Dreadnought w ML/TLLC Dev Sqad - 4 x ML, Cherub
2 x Tri Las Preds, 1 pred with HK
Start the game with the 3 scout squads, ezekiel, azreal, and the techmarine in the razorbacks to cut down on drops unless my opponent has an elite army with lots of deepstriking. At that point I deploy everything to keep them off my gun line since, unless I seize, I'm not going to go first anyways. What I've learned so far:
- The HQ choices here have been my go to. All the buffs make a gun line incredibly durable. My last game was against nids/GSC (exocrin, 2 x harpies, 1 x hive crone, that thing that spawns gaunts, 20 stealers with patriarch, and 10 of the guys that have rock drills etc., and a few warriors), I think they only managed to do a couple wounds in the shooting phase which was quickly healed by my techmarine. I could keep my vehicles at full HP easily. With all the rerolls to hit/wound I could easily delete 1 big bug a turn. I know turn 1, one predator smoked a harpie with full health by itself.
- Scout are pretty good bubble wrap (so far). If they survive, I fall back and blast stuff with the razorbacks. In a pinch, casting smite on something with ezekial, followed by some shooting and a counter charge has proven pretty effective. The 4 HQ choices counter charging 20 stealers with aversion on them after shooting is hard to stand up to.
- I love my Dark Talon. Every game I play with it, it does work. Favorite tactic so far is to try and start it on the field in the Dark Shrouds/Azreal's bubble if possible and let it scream across the field turn 1 to wreak havoc. It tends to draw a lot of fire and is durable enough to survive a while giving my gun line time to really tear stuff apart.
- I'm still out on the razorbacks. Of the games I've played they've done minimal damage, although, I think a lot of it is me. I'm having problems getting out of my 7th ed mind set.
- Dark Shrouds - excellent. If you have a gun line you need it. The -1 to hit is pretty big. A dev squad in cover with a 2+ armor save, -1 to hit, and 4+ invul is pretty hard to shift.
Problems I've had with the list
I have a lot of points invested in the gun line, which I don't want to move for the first turn minimum, maybe two depending on how the dice roll. In maelstrom type games that can hurt. I'm trying to use the razorbacks/Dark Talons to make up for it. Again, I think I just need to play more and get more comfortable with 8th ed. Also, trying to keep everything in the buff bubbles can be hard.
Number of drops. I have yet to go first in a game. Even against the nids. I just have way to many units to set up. I'd love to find a way to cut that down but I'm not sure how. I think I've been looking at this to close for to long so I'm hoping y'all may be able to help with.
I'm not sure preds are the way to go. They are great, don't get me wrong, but they are 202 points (208 w/HK) and get 4 las shots. I can do the same thing with a dev squad for 170 (that gets 5 shots with the cherub 1 turn). The dev squad usually has at least 1 model hitting on a 2+. With the buffs from the HQs they are durable and effective. I may try swapping the 2 preds for dev squads. Since I can do that now. I think I will eventually move to mortis dreads taking the place of the preds, if not the devs to in the future.
True Assault armies. I haven't played a game where someone is able to get my back field into combat turn 1. Not sure how long I could last against someone getting turn 1 charges.
No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.
Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.
Araablane wrote: Little bit confused, so you are recommending to get 2x DW boxes so i could make Ancient, Apothecary and Champion.
I should be able to make them from one box or i should make second box into regular DW?
Also i need some units on the board that can handle tanks and other nasty things thats why i was thinking Ven. dread for support.
The Deathwing Command Squad box (code 99 12 01 01 096) has the parts to make five models plus a Watcher. You can make Deathwing Terminators x 5, Deathwing Knights x 5, or two of either and three individuals such as Apothecary, Ancient and Champion. Its a very flexible box with lots of bitz! I notice that its out of stock on line right now (at least in Canada), but so are the other Deathwing boxes.
Right now you have two DW Terminators plus a Knight: you need five of each to get a force going. You need a minimum of eight additional models to get two units, so you need two boxes. With one box you could build three DW Terminators to fill out the first unit and could then make an Ancient and a Champion (or more Terminators). With the second box you could make four Deathwing Knights to bring your unit to five and then the Apothecary (or another Knight or another Terminator). Alternatively, you could just fill out two units with DW Terminators (save the Knights for later) and two of the supporters (Ancient, Apoth, or Champion). Add in Belial and you are ready to strike. I am finding that the Ancient is more useful than the Champion, although the Champ has his moments.
As for support, you have a lot of choices. You need something that can neutralize the big threats to your Terminators. A Venerable Dreadnought works nicely as it can benefit from some of the Deathwing buffs from Belial/Ancient. I use Scouts with Sniper rifles as support for DW as well. Something to keep in mind with DW list building is that you can only have half of your units teleport. At a tournament I had enough units so that all of my Deathwing could teleport.
Oh, man, im so sorry, when i wrote 2x DW i meant i have 2x Deathwing squads. So i have 10 Dark Vengeance terminator models and DW knight squad with 5 models, total 15 models.
But yea, thankie you for your advice, i know what to get.
No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.
Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.
I like your list. I have a list I've been working on at 1500 points and the closer I get to 2000 the more my list is probably going to look like yours. I really want to get a dark shroud and dark talon. Ive been curious since the edition dropped. The only key difference I think between our two lists is I'm for the use of venerable dreads as long range/close range options. I have one with a fist/lascannon, and another with ml and lascannon. Also using a pred and devestators for long range. But the dreads might help with your concern about drops in your zone. The combat fist and heavy flamer could be a deterrent.
No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.
Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.
I like your list. I have a list I've been working on at 1500 points and the closer I get to 2000 the more my list is probably going to look like yours. I really want to get a dark shroud and dark talon. Ive been curious since the edition dropped. The only key difference I think between our two lists is I'm for the use of venerable dreads as long range/close range options. I have one with a fist/lascannon, and another with ml and lascannon. Also using a pred and devestators for long range. But the dreads might help with your concern about drops in your zone. The combat fist and heavy flamer could be a deterrent.
I appreciate it. I think i'm leaning more towards dreads to. The smaller size compared to a pred is really appealing. And the ven dreads hitting on 2+ is pretty nice. The only dread I have right now is one I bought in like 2002 when I first started playing haha. I did somehow manage to keep all the arms for it though so could do a fist/flamer combo. Only concern I have with this is wasting points when there are no deepstrikes/cult ambush/etc units. I'll have to run him up the field, which isn't necessarily bad but not sure it'd work out. I figured I could always counter charge with the shooty version I have now in a pinch backed up by the HQ units. I'm really thinking about doing the fist/LC like you have if I can find the points. I'd give up one ML shot for a little more CC.
I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.
I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.
So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...
Agusto wrote: I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.
I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.
So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...
Regards: Agusto
I have found them very effective against Space Marine Equivalents, especially Terminators. I do not have qualms about special characters in this Edition, so I try to have them with someone granting rerolls. With Sammael its easy, but I've also used Belial. He teleports to the decisive point where the Black Knights join him with their speed. I happily supercharge against Terminators and vehicles if I have a reroll - I do not, however, reroll 2s when supercharging.
For me they have struggled against hordes. They need support, and they are very expensive for what they do against armies without High Payoff Targets.
I have been looking through this Tactics line and have found very little regarding Ravenwing. Are they really not a viable option? I have a good sized amount of bikes and Nephlims/Dark Talons. And would love to be able to field them and still be a bit Competitive. Any ideas or thoughts on good units and strategies?
I currently have 2 attack bikes with MM, and 2 landpseeders with AC/HB. They will get some playing time but definitely not great. The good news, replace those with 2 Nephilims for the same points....done deal.
Agusto wrote: I need help from fellow DA players regarding the Ravenwing Black Knights. I simply can't get them to work for me. Even before I write this, I know that the most likely (and best) answer is to include Azrael and get both the protection and the rerolls, but I am not a very big fan of Special Characters, especially those that are considered "auto include", like Celestine for my SoB.
I feel that they are simply too expensive for what they deliver. If they want the jink, they hit on 4+ with their plasmas. You really don't want to overcharge with a 50p model, we can't have a captain on a bike to keep up with them, and now, when they are reduced to 2 attacks, they tend to get bogged down by ordinary troops, unable to kill enough of them before they are dragged down by sheer number of attacks against them.
So, how do you play them? Keep them hidden and let them pounce on weekend units that have come to your table half? How should I deploy them? What should I aim them at? I need help...
Regards: Agusto
Sammael. He can keep up with the BKs while providing rerolls to hit, which is especially nice for plasma. He's also a nasty beatstick with some great rules. I think any RW list needs him.
Agusto wrote: Thanks, but as I said... not a big fan of SC!
If your going to hamstring yourself by not using some of the most powerful units in the codex, how can you expect to make things better? I have no clue why you wouldn't want to use SCstbh. I remember a time, a long while back, when that mentality was going around but haven't heard it for years at this point. Just about all of the SCs now provide crucial aura's and buffs that really make other units much, much better and this new edition is built around. I love SCs, and imo this game and the lore are about the heroes and villains of the galaxy, so why not bring them to the table top?
Agusto wrote: Thanks, but as I said... not a big fan of SC!
If your going to hamstring yourself by not using some of the most powerful units in the codex, how can you expect to make things better? I have no clue why you wouldn't want to use SCstbh. I remember a time, a long while back, when that mentality was going around but haven't heard it for years at this point. Just about all of the SCs now provide crucial aura's and buffs that really make other units much, much better and this new edition is built around. I love SCs, and imo this game and the lore are about the heroes and villains of the galaxy, so why not bring them to the table top?
Quoted and exalted for truth. If you don't use SCs, you are gimping yourself. Most armies have very good SCs, and Dark Angels really don't do all that well without them. Our best builds revolve around Azrael, Belial, and Sammael, alone or in some combination. Ezekiel, as I've said before, is also pretty solid, and Asmodai actually has a use for the first time in...well, ever. The non-unique characters definitely have a place as well and are generally cheaper, but the unique heroes really stand out in this edition, perhaps more than in previous editions.
+1 regarding Dark Angels Special Characters. I feel no qualms using them in this edition. In 2nd Ed I rarely took SCs outside of narrative play, but that was 1996 and this is 2017. The Ravenwing do not have a Captain on a Bike, so Sammael gets the nod for my RW.
Regarding the Ravenwing, I took a RW/DW force today against Orcs. Supported by two Ravenwing Squads, the Black Knights did very well. The RW squads dished out the dakka while the Black Knights dealt with High Payoff Targets. Sammael did very well in both shooting and close combat. The Champion, Ancient and Apothecary ended up dealing with threats in my backfield. Being on their own was not in my game plan, but they were a decent reserve and my Orc opponent used Stormboyz and Da Jump to great effect. In the end we recovered the Relic (a Fallen in a stasis chamber on a crashed Dark Talon) and killed most of the orcs for the tragic yet heroic loss of the Deathwing Knights.
I think that an RW list might be viable with a few Troops/Heavy Support slots filled. I am a little sad that I take Flyers over Landspeeders, but I can't find a way to make Landspeeders worth it yet.
Try a Ravenwing list with Sammael - its fun! Nowhere is safe from him. I also have a hard time thinking of taking a Deathwing force without Belial.
Agusto wrote: Am I the only one who is feeling a bit disappointed that 8th seems to be turning into an edition of flyers, super heavies and special characters?
I still think that this is what an 40K army should look like. Not spamming knights, stormravens, drones, horrors or razorwing flocks!
Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!
Also, I am fully aware that I am gimping myself for not using the most powerful SC:s or units (flyers as an example), but not everyone out there is a power gamer or wants to maximise their list. I never got the reason why GW got so much flak from their "forge the narrative" point of view. I, personally, think that that is the best way to play any games with other people. But then again, I am more of an rpg:er than a table top:er. Some of us still play with a mindset that "the rule of cool" should be adhered to and play with the models that we think look the best, not has the best rules under the current edition, God I miss Nigel Stillman, and the main goal is to roll a few dice and hope that both you and your opponent have a good time.
What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.
But I guess I got my answer: They don't work.
Thanks.
ps: Thank you TangoTwoBravo, for the pointers regarding their best targets.
Agusto wrote: Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!
What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.
But I guess I got my answer: They don't work.
Thanks.
ps: Thank you TangoTwoBravo, for the pointers regarding their best targets.
You could try a detachment with a Chaplain on a Bike as the HQ, with a Librarian on a Bike along for support. The Chaplain would at least give re-rolls in close combat. I do not find that close combat is the strong suite of the Ravenwing, although the Champion and Ancient can help a little. My Ravenwing rely on firepower.
The Ravenwing have good firepower, good protection/resilience and great mobility. I set up somewhat dispersed to keep my opponent guessing. I then use the 14" move to mass two or three squads against one enemy unit. Getting just inside 12" allows for a hail of Bolter fire, along with any special weapons and attack bike weapons that you have included. The Black Knights aim for things like Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Hellbrutes etc. In close combat they occasionally shine when they roll 6s for wounds with their Corvus Hammers, but I still see them primarily as shooters.
I have been experimenting with Ravenwing Bike Squad size. I am liking five bikers with an Attack Bike. This squadron can dish out 24 bolter shots at 12" plus the special/heavy weapons. Two of them converging on one target unit can be devastating.
I had a tough battle today between my Ravenwing and Orcs. Mass slaughter of greenskins, but he held more objectives. While Ravenwing have mobility, they can lack enough units to contest multiple objectives. One unit that shone when I thought it would not was a three-strong Ravenwing Landspeeder Squadron. They cost a lot, but they mauled and/or destroyed four units (Stormboyz, Boyz, Nobz, Burna). They benefited for two turns of shooting from Sammael, but for two others they took advantage of a central firing position. I could have taken a Flyer (and then some) instead for the points, but it did show me that my beloved Landspeeders might still have a place.
I think that they perform better as a supporting Outrider detachment for a more meaty detachment, I am not writing off the Ravenwing as a standalone force yet. If nothing else, they play to my style of fire and movement!
Agusto wrote: Well, I guess I am one of the few who like to create my own characters with back stories and all, instead of using SC:s. And yes, perhaps that is the answer... that people think that Black Knights are unplayable without SC:s, and that's it!
Also, I am fully aware that I am gimping myself for not using the most powerful SC:s or units (flyers as an example), but not everyone out there is a power gamer or wants to maximise their list. I never got the reason why GW got so much flak from their "forge the narrative" point of view. I, personally, think that that is the best way to play any games with other people. But then again, I am more of an rpg:er than a table top:er. Some of us still play with a mindset that "the rule of cool" should be adhered to and play with the models that we think look the best, not has the best rules under the current edition, God I miss Nigel Stillman, and the main goal is to roll a few dice and hope that both you and your opponent have a good time.
What I wanted to know was about placements, prefered targets, what to avoid. You know, tactics! But it seems that for most people 8th is just like 7th, it is a game of list building and nothing more.
Well, yes, clearly list building is the biggest factor in 40k. Honestly I don't remember an edition where list building didn't play a huge role. As far as as "the rule of cool" goes, I play Deathwing, and have so for 19 years now, and no amount of tactics is going to make them a top tier army. I can pull out wins here and there but if i don't bring stuff like Belial, Azreal etc, there is no way i'd stand a change. It was like that in at least the last 3 editions because FFG made you bring Belial to unlock termiantors as troops, same with Sammael and ravenwing bikers. So i've long gave up on not running SC's.
Having said that, seeing the new codex, and pages of relics, that SC's can't take, only your own home brewed characters can them, so just maybe, there will be some relics in the DA book when it comes out that allows us to make some non named SC that can be as good as some of the named SCs? we shall see
Also, to be honest, I agree with you on many of your gripes. I hate seeing super heavies, Lords of War, Knights, imperial armor and all these spam armies from WAAC players in regular 40k. IMO, it was also a HUGE mistake to eliminate the force orgs, that alone will make spam armies never go away. We already saw today that GWFAQ'd the rules so that flyer spam is basically dead now, but the WAAc players will just come up with something new, and GW might have to address that next.
The main issue that I have with the Black Knights is their points versus survivability. They are soooo expensive and just as easy as ordinary bikes to take out, and cost more than 50% more. Given the 8th ed version of cover, or rather lack thereof, I am struggling to find places to increase their save or more preferably, hide them altogether. Most players know that they are quite a decent multi purpose unit that packs a punch both in shooting and cc, so they are high up on their priority list. And yes, 2W are better than one, and yes, I'ld rather have a Jink save than not... But shooting is so much deadlier now with all the rerolls handed out like candy.
I am wondering if terrain and future table building is going to make Black Knights, and Ravenwing in general, more attractive. Now, (most) groups, clubs and shops only have terrain that was built for a previous rules system. One that that benefitted being behind cover rather than in. Once tables are starting to use more terrain with bases, helping with the "within" portion, and more importantly, seeing more solid line of sight blockers, I think that Black Knights will become better. Being able to dash 14+6'' from cover to cover. Being able to charge out from behind a building and into cc (without getting shot to pieces because the only terrain feature infront of them is a wood that was built with really narrow trees in order to make the placing of models easier but now means that none of the bikers get the 50% obscured rule).
That, and I am starting to think that perhaps a Darkshroud is needed after all. That, in combination with Aversion from a Librarian against the heaviest hitter on the other side is the way to go.
So, GW released the new Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought and i think it looks sweeeeet.
But question is, is it better or as same level of goodness as Venerable Dreadnought. I want to add 2 dreadnoughts to my army but i dont know if to get 2x Primaris because i like the look or 1 Primaris and 1 Venerable for versability.
Ideally i would love to get 2x Primaris because of the looks but will it be viable?
Araablane wrote: So, GW released the new Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought and i think it looks sweeeeet.
But question is, is it better or as same level of goodness as Venerable Dreadnought. I want to add 2 dreadnoughts to my army but i dont know if to get 2x Primaris because i like the look or 1 Primaris and 1 Venerable for versability.
Ideally i would love to get 2x Primaris because of the looks but will it be viable?
Check out Tabletop Tactics on Youtube. GW already gave them the new SM codex and they did a battle report using it. Smurfs vs. Iron Warriors. They used the new redempter dreadnought. It has 13 wounds iirc. In that game the smurfs were seized on and it soaked up a lot of fire. Wanna say it was down to 3 wounds, was charged by a hell brute, survived and smashed it's face in when it attacked back. Next turn it charged another hell brute and ripped it apart. It has a lot of fire power including AAA. Of course one game isn't probably going to be enough to tell but from that first look it seems to be pretty mean. I think it has the same toughness as other dreads as well and unlike other dreads it degrades with damage. Which I thought was crazy considering it was still able to do the damage it did in CC but he was able to reroll hits and wounds thanks to the primarch being close by.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh. They are also going to be putting a review of the new SM codex out. Its either already out or will be posted soon. May help you decide.
What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?
Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO
Nidzrule! wrote: What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?
Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO
I mean you can use them, they just would not benefit from the rest of your army and would not be able to transport anything (unless those things also were not "DA")
In trying to re-purpose my full Lion's Blade, how viable would this list be for 2k pts:
Battalion:
6 Tac Squads, 4 Lascannon, 2 ML - 510 pts
Dedicated Transports - 6 Razorbacks with Twin AC - 600 pts
Dev Squad with Grav Cannons and grav-amps - 177pts
Dedicated Transport - Drop Pod with SB - 105
Dark Talon- 180
Azrael - 180
1572 total, looking for some advice on what else to bring along. I have 4 more Twin AC Razorbacks I could use, but that's even more spam. I also have an Imperial Knight I could bring along, though not sure about the points values for the build I would want (Gatling Cannon, Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear, Stubber, Heavy Flamer).
Nidzrule! wrote: What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?
Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO
I've won three of the last four battles against Orks with Dark Angels. I did use a Nephilim in two of them, but my most consistent Ork killers have been my Deathwing Terminators. You can put out a lot of dakka when you arrive with normal Storm Bolters, possibly aided by Belial. In the game I lost I went without Terminators. Ravenwing Landspeeders can also put some pain on large Ork mobs, and I found a Whirlwind effective in one game.
Nidzrule! wrote: What's the best way for DA to deal with hordes of Orks WITHOUT taking dark talons or nephilim fighters?
Do landraider crusaders work or normal assault termies? I have azrael and a darkshroud but I dont want to spend money on the DA flyers as I do not really like their aesthetic... Shame we cant use stormravens as I've got TWO
My last game against Orks, I used Azrael, a bunch of the Primaris units, as well as a couple of dreadnoughts with lascannons, a squad of lascannon devs, and a las Predator. I also had a couple of Razorbacks and a flamer Assault Squad. The Ork player had 3 Morkanauts, 3 big blobs of like 30 boyz each, 2 Big Meks on bikes, a Wierdboy for Da Jump, and a Warboss. I did beat him, but it was close since I didn't realize that in the mission whoever was closest to the relic wins that objective if no one is holding it. I could have won bigger if I had known that. During the game, I dropped all 3 Morkanauts (1 per turn) easily enough with all my lascannons, and my Intercessors really did some work both in shooting and CC against the boyz. Between Azrael's and the Primaris Lieutenant's buffs, I got plenty of rerolls, and I used Command Points judiciously as well.
So, short answer to facing Orks: pretty much anything with plenty of shots or CC attacks; they don't have to be powerful attacks either as Orks don't have great saves. Primaris Marines work really well for their cost, especially Intercessors, as they are durable and get decent firepower (an Ork Boy gets no save against their bolt rifles). With the upcoming price drop on Inceptors I may consider using them as well, assuming that applies to DA units and not just vanilla ones.
Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.
I think Asmodai only gives rerolls to hit in the Fight phase, kind of like other chaplains do. However, just use a Company Master (Captain) and you can at least reroll 1's to hit in shooting. Also stick a couple of Primaris Lieutenants with them to reroll 1's to wound, and profit!
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Asmodai and Azrael spread out to cover gunlines of Las Tacticals and AC Razorbacks a sound strategy? Easy to get everything with 6 inches of one or both of these guys for rerolls to hit.
I think Asmodai only gives rerolls to hit in the Fight phase, kind of like other chaplains do. However, just use a Company Master (Captain) and you can at least reroll 1's to hit in shooting. Also stick a couple of Primaris Lieutenants with them to reroll 1's to wound, and profit!
Ah yes, you're correct.
I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?
Pretty sure you can. You could run a whole unit of TH/SS termies if you wanted, although when Deathwing Knights exist there's really no point for Deathwing. Swapping out the Sarge's weapons for TH/SS seems like a good idea, actually.
I just noticed that for the Deathwing Terminator Squad entry, it lists the power sword as once again being a requirement for the Deathwing Sgt. It also goes on to state that "any model may exchange it's weapons for a stormshield and a thunder hammer". So now I can just give my Sgt. these weapons and he can serve as my +3 invun damage sponge instead of needing another model?
Yes, and the more games I play, I feel like you need 1 SS in each shooty squad to soak those hits. I got all my Deathwing bitz out to go ahead and make about 4 TH/SS srg's for just this reason. I had a game sunday where I sorely needed that lone SS in each squad, and it cost me the game, so i'll be running the TH/SS sergs from now on.
That's an interesting way to get your unit's SS. I'm conflicted on whether or not that's a worthwhile trade, though, since the sergeant is one of very few opportunities we have to save points on a stormbolter body. That 3++ is pretty handy. I'll have to run a few more games to see if I feel like it's a necessary.
I don't find them to be anything but a slight chance to get a lucky wound. Fists, hammers, CML, and the Heavy weapon are where you get your points worth.
bobafett012 wrote: I'm sitting here trying to put together some Deathwing lists for some games i'm playing this weekend. They are 2k points.
A couple things i'm considering, and wanting to get some other peoples thoughts on. First off, to clarify, when I say Deathwing, I actually mean Deathwing. Terms, land raiders, and venerable dreads, and HQs that are inducted into the DW. I have my own thoughts on this stuff, but i've been out of 40k since basically 5th because i only played a handful of 6th edition games and quit, so i want to see what everyone else is thinking after seeing the rules and the codex.
First thing, the age old debate between shooty or CC Deathwing. Whats going to be better this edition? I personally love shooty terms, but I was thinking maybe a mixture of shooty terms and knights. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of reasons to bring TH and SS terms over the Knights. The Mace of Absolution is a Thunder Hammer without the penalty. I'm thinking, drop a couple 5 man squads of Knights in and aim at their super heavy or large units and use CP re-rolls to get the charge off. Then use shooty terms to march up the field, take objectives and lay down their improved fire power from Storm bolters, Cyclones and assault cannons.
Second, I definitely want to run a Libby in term armor, but after reading the entry in the SM codex, other than losing the ability to DS him, and a couple weapon options, why would you ever take the Libby in Terminator armor over Ezekiel? He's got a 2+/4++, better stats, gets all 3 psychic powers, and some cool wargear that you essentially get for free, all for nearly 20 points less.
Thirdly, what are peoples thoughts on the best command squad units. Apothecary, champion and ancient all seem pretty good to be honest.
Lastly, with land raiders and dreads being much tougher than before, are DW lists going to be better with less terms and loaded up on 2 or 3 LRs and Dreads, or lots of terms and maybe only 1 land raider and a dread? This one i'm not as sure on. The real question is, just how tough are the LD and dreads going to be. basically you can get a 5 man squad of terms instead of a LR, or 2 dreads with some left over.
I've been using a mix of shooty and close combat Deathwing Terminators. A Vanguard Detachment of Belial, a Champion, a DW Terminator Squad and a DW Knight squad did very well for me at a recent tournament. Stormbolters arriving by teleport with Belial to assist shooting can really thin out the opposition. The Knights are excellent in close combat. I am now putting a SS/TH in my shooty squads, though, to give a bit of protection against things like Lascannons.
The nice thing about a Librarian in Terminator armour is that he can arrive with your DW when they teleport. This gives them some protection against Smite while also allowing your Librarian to assist. Ezekiel is great, but he you cannot assure that you can get him in with your Terminators. I've been running a Librarian on a bike to allow him to be with the DW when they arrive, but a Terminator Librarian would be more effective.
I am finding the Champion a little of a drawback. He can do great things, but he is a kill point for your opponent, counts as a drop at deployment and with close combat interruptions from Command Points he is not always an asset in a fight. The Ancient, though, does great things.
I am not sure on the Landraider or Dreadnought piece. I am trying both.
Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.
Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.
While this is a valid point, it is very situational. Sure, they're pretty good against a horde army, but not so good against a MEQ army.
True enough. I'm reasonably confident in a Deathwing army's ability to deal with MEQs and heavy armor, though, given that everything has a freaking powerfist or better.
Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there....
As am I, for quite a few reasons these days, actually more than before tbh. Terms are as slow as ever, so to get terms into assault, at this point, requires a delivery system other then DSing in. pretty much everything can out run and out maneuver terms so your not chasing nothing down. Storm Bolters literally got twice as good as they were in prior editions. Bolters typically do the lion's share of killing in most SM armies and should because they are the most prevalent weapon they have and put out lots of shots. SB's in concert with SC like Belial or Azreal they get even better, and none of those abilities are being wasted 50% of the time on assault only terms. I think they both have their merits but for me personally, DW knights have not been good for me in my handful of games in 8th. they are too slow without Land raiders or what not to get into CC.
For those playing deathwing.
Rumor has it that the cost on powerfists will drop in the C:SM codex release.
While this will not effect Dark Angels until the DA codex is released, it does mean that the cost of DW terminators will drop -- likely later this year.
Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.
First off, that Ork player will pick those 8 orks up from the front, so your 9" charge becomes 10" or 11".
And the scenario you described can be fulfilled much easier by other units. Would you put bolters on Jump Pack Assault Squads? Why not?
Again, you're paying 20 points for each power fist and 2 for each Storm Bolter. If your terminators are not using their power fists, you are wasting their points.
All that said, do I hear power fists are about to get much cheaper in the new codexes??? If it's the rumored 13 points, that would totally change my thinking about tactical terminators!
I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.
What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.
What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.
What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?
I appreciate it. I think i'm leaning more towards dreads to. The smaller size compared to a pred is really appealing. And the ven dreads hitting on 2+ is pretty nice. The only dread I have right now is one I bought in like 2002 when I first started playing haha. I did somehow manage to keep all the arms for it though so could do a fist/flamer combo. Only concern I have with this is wasting points when there are no deepstrikes/cult ambush/etc units. I'll have to run him up the field, which isn't necessarily bad but not sure it'd work out. I figured I could always counter charge with the shooty version I have now in a pinch backed up by the HQ units. I'm really thinking about doing the fist/LC like you have if I can find the points. I'd give up one ML shot for a little more CC.
Hey! Just wanted to give you a small update. Had a game last night where two venerables were absolutely key -- not initially as planned though. I ran one with lascannon/fist and flamer and the other as lascannon/ML. I was surprised to find how much more useful it was to have the fist rather than the ML. I guess my army has enough shooting at range.The fist provided so much in the way of close combat options. It's not a good idea to totally rely on Azrael. Although he is beast, I think I'm going to go with two with fist and flamer over the Lascannon/ML all the time. It's too many eggs in the shooting basket to use the ML. At one point I held all objectives and got approached heavily in the mid-field by horde nurgle lol. I threw both dreads, azrael, techmarine, some intercessors into a combat to bog them down in a fight. I knew that fight wasn't going anywhere soon but figured the long fight might be to my benefit through a combination of high toughness better attacks. Happily it turned out to be true. I was in a fight with a bunch of nurgle demons, a plaguecaster, plague marines and Typhus at one point (all of which were pretty near impossible to kill at range) and managed to pull through. The dreadnought with fist did so much work. It allowed me to kill Typhus in a round between the fist dread and Azrael. After that moment, the rest crumbled. It was just really nice to have some back up for Azzy. Definitely worth considering if you are on the fence. The techmarine proved also to be rather tough with the 2+/4++ (invul courteous of azzy) power axe and servo arm.
One problem I had was not running a psyker originally. I chose to run a P.Lieutenant. I think that was a mistake. Psychic Support is really too useful. The rerolls of 1 was good but I found Azzy provided enough of a support with rerolls that it probably was a little redundant. If I find I cant live without the reroll to wound of one, I will have to guage the usefulness of the techmarine but overall the techmarine is coming across as more important so far -- and much better in a fight.
At 1750 I will add a dark talon, make the dev squad a 10 man. Half with back field support lascannons, and the others with melta or plasma in the razorback. And will probably change the tac squad to a scout sqaud.
I have found my Stormbolter Deathwing quite useful. They expand the range of action of the Deathwing and give them flexibility. In six competitive games I have successfully pulled off a Turn 1 charge with two units and expended six CP doing so. Its a gamble to rely on a Turn 1 Terminator assault. That's why I am liking the Stormbolters. A five-man Squad with four Stormbolters guided by Belial should kill roughly seven Orks if they arrive within 12". Their Assault Cannon will likely kill three more. Add in my second Deathwing Squad in the Detachment plus Belial and the Ancient's Stormbolters and I am killing about 24 Orks. Usually I have beamed into the flank of the flanking Ork mob and am thus fairly safe from a supporting Boyz Mob. With pure SS/TH Deathwing squads you are quite one-dimensional. I grant, though, that its a very effective dimension! If I knew that I was playing Chaos or other Marines I may well opt for a pure TH/SS squad, but for tournament play I am liking the Stormbolters so far. Full disclosure, I also run DW Knights and I do like them! Working with a Stormbolter Deathwing Squad gives the detachment some flexibility.
@Widied,
That's a very shooty list! I have tried out the Azrael/Primaris fire base and it can lay down some serious damage.
First off, that Ork player will pick those 8 orks up from the front, so your 9" charge becomes 10" or 11".
Again, you're paying 20 points for each power fist and 2 for each Storm Bolter. If your terminators are not using their power fists, you are wasting their points.
Not if you shoot at a different unit than you charge! 9" charges aren't exactly super reliable, so I agree with you on that front, but just don't shoot at your charge target.
8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.
Fenris-77 wrote: 8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.
Agreed. Assault Termies and DW Knights really need a transport. Otherwise they risk failing their charge and then your opponent can just kite them.
So if you aren't willing to forge world, how do you transport the knights? Classic land raider with it's lascannons covers a nice position, but charging one up seems contrary to it's role. I haven't heard good things about the flamer variant because getting close enough to flame means melta or assault is right around the corner. The crusader has extra seats but it brings a "lot" of the same thing we already have, bolters.
So what do? I had talked myself into three razorbacks instead but all of this *teleporting units aren't going to make charges* talk has me wondering.
Fenris-77 wrote: 8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.
Agreed. Assault Termies and DW Knights really need a transport. Otherwise they risk failing their charge and then your opponent can just kite them.
Agreed with both of you guys. I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms. with all the buffs everywhere, your losing half your buff with assault terms over shooty terms, and its not like assault terms are tons better in assault than power fist terms. the CC weapons and attacks are nearly identical, yet those Knights have zero shooting, which means no overwatch as well as normal shooting.
For me personally, i've ran knights in my last few games and they've really done nothing except DS in, fail their charge, even after i re-roll with CP, and then they get shot and/or charged and wiped out. the game they survived, after they killed half a squad of berzerkers, they couldn't reach any other unit to get into assault so I just had to park them on an objective. At least with shooty terms i get shots off, but then, with shooty Deathwing, and depending on your opponent of course, your better off staying out of CC unitl you get a round or 2 of shooting in, then use your fists to clean them up.
I played a game sunday, I decided to take 2 nephs, and 1 dark talon over my 3 venerable dreads and wow they were awesome. the mobility was just a godsend to my Deathwing.
Does that thunder hammer say 16 or 18 points? Either way, terminators got more viable.
This is a big deal. Deathwing terminators 8 points cheaper per model jumps them right back into viability. Shame we'll probably have to wait for the DA codex or the end-of-year Chapter Approved for this.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I have found my Stormbolter Deathwing quite useful. They expand the range of action of the Deathwing and give them flexibility. In six competitive games I have successfully pulled off a Turn 1 charge with two units and expended six CP doing so. Its a gamble to rely on a Turn 1 Terminator assault. That's why I am liking the Stormbolters. A five-man Squad with four Stormbolters guided by Belial should kill roughly seven Orks if they arrive within 12". Their Assault Cannon will likely kill three more. Add in my second Deathwing Squad in the Detachment plus Belial and the Ancient's Stormbolters and I am killing about 24 Orks. Usually I have beamed into the flank of the flanking Ork mob and am thus fairly safe from a supporting Boyz Mob. With pure SS/TH Deathwing squads you are quite one-dimensional. I grant, though, that its a very effective dimension! If I knew that I was playing Chaos or other Marines I may well opt for a pure TH/SS squad, but for tournament play I am liking the Stormbolters so far. Full disclosure, I also run DW Knights and I do like them! Working with a Stormbolter Deathwing Squad gives the detachment some flexibility.
@Widied,
That's a very shooty list! I have tried out the Azrael/Primaris fire base and it can lay down some serious damage.
Cheers
Yeah. It turned out to be very shooty which was good against the defilier that got taken out turn one. Unfortunately against the rest of horde nurgle i had to fight as my shooting was pretty ineffective shooting into blobs of 20-30. i ran one unit of shooty terms before and quite liked them. I have been trying the intercessors instead mostly for bubble wrap but they are where as i can get two units worth for the price of one.
I would think GW would put out some kind of errata that would adjust the point cost of DA/BA/SW wargear to match those of vanilla Space Marines. Otherwise, we might as well play as Green Marines and just use C:SM entries. I'm thinking of doing that anyway for shiggles so that I can try out Guilliman.
axisofentropy wrote: also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.
Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.
Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.
On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....
Wow, DWT are going to be sweet down 8pts that's a HUGE change! they needed something to compete with DWK, I suppose, even though as noted, I do like having some range.
Speaking of which, I played a 1000pt game last night against Tyranids and got my ass handed to me in spectacular fashion. My opponent didn't quite know how points worked with selecting units and adding wargear and whatnot and squeezed in an extra hundred points or so. Plus, we played with Genestealers costing 10pts still, so there's an extra hundred, too. Still, I got waxed hard. I ran a unit of DWK, a unit of DWT, 2 las/ccw Ven dreads, and Belial. He had 2 Tervigons, a Hive Tyrant, Termagants, 3 Biovores, 20 Genestealers, and some Gargoyles.
The combo of massed chaff units (gaunts both purchased and spawned by tervigons) and copious mortal wounds was brutal. i managed to drop on the Biovores and get a first-turn charge, but as soon as his psykers got in range, Smite kicked me in the teeth. genestealers ganged up on my 5 Knights and took out most of them. The Knight Master held out for a couple turns, and really kicked some ass with those carry-over wounds. that's a devastating ability against 1-wound models. I was impressed by my DWT shooting, but they had some really unlucky saves and got thinned out by the 2nd turn. Belial was a machine but couldn't keep up with the Gaunt factory and died to the 8-ish leftover Genestealers. Similarly, the Dreads ripped through whatever came at them but got tarpitted long enough to not really do anything useful.
It was a fun game, but Tyranids look to be a fairly discouraging matchup for Deathwing. Other than not spotting my opponent 200pts, I'm not entirely sure what I would've done differently. I had considered dropping mid-board to start taking pot shots at his Stealers, but then I would've been eating Biovore mortal wounds all game. With only 13 models in my list, I didn't figure that was a viable option. I did manage to split my DWK away from Belial, and that was maybe partially a mistake. They made their charge into the Biovores, while Belial and DWT got stranded in combat with Gaunts >6" away.
I think a Spartan with its crushing tracks would be nice to have around. I'm also thinking a Crusader with its hurricane bolters would have come up big. I'm really beginning to appreciate horde thinning measure with Deathwing, and I may start shifitng my lists largely in that direction. We hit hard as hell, but there aren't a lot of models or attacks to go around. Storm bolters are helpful and will be even more so on 40pt Termies. I haven't run a Crusader yet, but again, that is starting to sound pretty attractive.
As for the CML, I think it's a decent option, but I worry that it's a very expensive upgrade you'll only use twice or so per game. In my relatively few games, my DWT have been in combat the majority of the time. I don't particularly care for heavy flamers on Terminators since you drop in out of range to use them. I'd rather have the much cheaper storm bolter, most of the time.
Even with the recent rumored points cost decreases, I doubt I'd ever transport anything other than DWK and associated characters. They're just too good to pass up with their normal-hitting power maces and Knight Master damage spillover. I *might* consider lightning claw dudes in larger games and pending points adjustments for those, as well.
, that might means the Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought and Blood Angel Death Company Dread are now just trash tier unit........
That might have come in handy in a recent game. I still agree that even with chainswords Ravenwing bikes should try to stay out of combat if possible. The problem is that their weapons kind of require them to get danger close for full effect, especially flamers and meltaguns. Black Knights seem like they are decent in melee, though, especially if there's a Ravenwing Ancient nearby. With the cost increase of Ravenwing units across the board, I'm not sure that an all-Ravenwing army is really viable anymore unfortunately.
That being said, the flyers are actually looking BOSS for the first time in, like, ever.
