I figured I'd start the 8th edition Blood Angel Tactica. My firs army, and still one of my true loves.
Summary of what 8th Edition brought us:
THE GOOD:
-Assaulting from transports - return of rhino/razorback assault squads?
-Mephiston got unnerfed, his weapon is no long "AP3" but rather is -3 to armor saves, at S10 all the time, still being able to cast all 3 powers, and a special 5+ save against everything, he's a power to be reckoned with.
-Detachment(Force Org) changes: We can no bring detachments that allow us to field all fast attack if we want, a release from the pain of the long term BA players who hard 6 assault squads and no way to field them all anymore.
THE BAD:
-Transport costs went up all of the place. No free rhinos for assault squads, droppods are expensive, razorbacks as well.
-Morale changes: Enemy units aren't just going to fold and get swallowed up in combat, they will take extra damage, then they will fallback if they can so that they can shoot our poor assault marines.
-We have a new temporary codex, thus we are missing a lot of our uniqueness. We're still a lot better off then some chapters.
THE UGLY:
-We lost Feel no Pain from our priest, each unit has a 6+ save on wounds. Our priests instead give us +1S(thanks Pendroig), can heal a single model, or bring back alive a slain one on 4+. With Corbulo allowing us also to have a chance to generate extra attacks. Our toughness has diminished for sure.
So i'm coming from 6th edition so if something I say sounds off that's why. I've actually played since 2nd but didn't start BA till 5th.
The psychic powers seem pretty good. Blood boil looks completey worthless. Even against T2 units (is there any?) i still would rather use smite and hope for the 10+ for D6 mortal wounds. The other 2 powers are pretty nice although I think i'd rather trade both of them for the ultramarines powers, but we'll make due.
Most of the Special characters seem real good. Nice and killy in CC. Mephiston seems amazing for his points. Lemartes is another good one. Dante looks sick as hell, but pricey, I think you get your money's worth with him. The Sanguinor being able to fallback on your turn, then charge again in the charge phase seems really nice.
One thing I think you forgot to mention in THE GOOD column is Assaulting from DS with an army that can run lots of JP's. I know you still need a 9+ on 2D6 to make the charge but just got to drop in enough units to hit a couple charges. Lemartes can help in this regard since he allows you to reroll charge ranges. Lemartes leading some JP Death Company seems like a good start.
Even though the DC have lost quite a bit over the last 2 editions, they are getting nice and cheap for the 2 extra attacks over assault marines base of 1(black rage and 2 base). Black Rage also gives the 6+ FnP so thats atleast something, and of course the ability to outfit them all into upgraded wargear makes them a very killy unit.
Sanguinary guard are real nice now as well. Another squad prime for Deep striking them in.
A big disappointment for me was the blood talons for dreadnaughts. They are identical as the fists, other than rolling a D6 on the irst.
My hope is 2 fold. Firstly, that this game is as balanced as possible, and my jump assault Blood Angels" get much more competeive.
bobafett012 wrote: One thing I think you forgot to mention in THE GOOD column is Assaulting from DS with an army that can run lots of JP's. I know you still need a 9+ on 2D6 to make the charge but just got to drop in enough units to hit a couple charges. Lemartes can help in this regard since he allows you to reroll charge ranges. Lemartes leading some JP Death Company seems like a good start.
Even though the DC have lost quite a bit over the last 2 editions, they are getting nice and cheap for the 2 extra attacks over assault marines base of 1(black rage and 2 base). Black Rage also gives the 6+ FnP so thats atleast something, and of course the ability to outfit them all into upgraded wargear makes them a very killy unit.
A big disappointment for me was the blood talons for dreadnaughts. They are identical as the fists, other than rolling a D6 on the irst.
Good points. DC might very well be the go to unit, especially since when I was looking at assault marines, I noticed that since we have to use generic marine datasheet for them, we no longer have meltaguns on our assault marines. Sigh!
On a better note, I was slightly disappointed with the Dreads, but so happy that they can no long be immobilized and they don't have diminishing stats like other vehicles. They fight to the bitter end, and they fight well. They move fast and hit hard. These are more so for killing enemy large single models then they are for killing infantry like they used to.
THE UGLY:
-We lost Feel no Pain from our priest, each unit has a 6+ save on wounds. Our priests instead give us +1 A, can heal a single model, or bring back alive a slain one on 4+. With Corbulo allowing us also to have a chance to generate extra attacks. Our toughness has diminished for sure.
Coyote81 wrote: Good points. DC might very well be the go to unit, especially since when I was looking at assault marines, I noticed that since we have to use generic marine datasheet for them, we no longer have meltaguns on our assault marines. Sigh!
Everything will change a bit once we actually get a codex. We'll get at least some of our flavor back because at the moment, all SM chapters are just very bland, no chapter tactics, special rules are mostly gone etc etc, but who knows when that will be.
Coyote81 wrote: On a better note, I was slightly disappointed with the Dreads, but so happy that they can no long be immobilized and they don't have diminishing stats like other vehicles. They fight to the bitter end, and they fight well. They move fast and hit hard. These are more so for killing enemy large single models then they are for killing infantry like they used to.
I was very happy myself, until I saw dreads can no longer be drop poded in. That might be a real killer for CC dreads even with their 8" move. At least BA have the stormraven to drop them in, but its gotten a lot more expensive too, just like land raiders did, so i don't know how viable that will be either.
The Magna Grapples will help those CC Dreads too. Adding a couple of inches to the charge range is deceptively good IMO. Even better, Lemartes lets the DC Dread re-roll charge distances and TH rolls too (keyword DCFTW). Tasty.
So I had my first battle with the new Blood Angels. It was a 1500pt game against Dark Eldar (I helped him optimize his list, so it was pretty rough)
My list:
Mephiston
Lemartes
10x Death Company with chainswords
Stormraven (MM,Heavy PC,Hurricane Bolters, missiles)
Furioso Dreadnought Frag cannon Heavy flamer magnagrapple
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance
3x Tac Squads with PC and sgt with combi-plasma
His list:
Succubus
Succubus
6x wytches Hyrda gauntlet Power Sword
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
Raider Dark Lance (DL) - 2x 5man wytches in here
Raider DL - 2x 5man wytches in here
Raider DL - 6man wytches and succubi in here
Ravager 3x DL Ravager 3x DL Ravager 3x DL Void Raven Bomber - Void Lances, missiles, bomb
Mission Only War - modified
We did the random objectives after placing and got relic, we had a trailer of objectives across the middle of the map, so the DE player choose hammer and anvil to hamper me since I had a bunch of foot troops. he got luck and got the objective in his deployment zone as the relic.
I got to go first.
I put lemartes + 10x DC and the Dreadnought in the stormraven, flew forward quickly to force him to deal with them instead of my tactical squads placed in various terrain. With the whirldwind hiding in back.
His placement was spread around some since I saved my stormraven for last and he didn't know where it would go.
I'll just give a summary of events:
-Due to misjudging how many shots it took to finish a ravager, i failed to kill it first turn, and later paid for it when it rolled 2 5's for shootingwith DLs at my Stormraven.
-Dark lances are no joke good, and blaster pistols even better. Why do Eldar Lances become assault on vehicles while almost every marine weapon stay as a heavy even when on a vehicle? This make Ravagers amazing, higher mobility then Marine vehicle can achieve, no penalty for moving and shooting, super cheap, and yes a little weaker, but they all have 5+ inv saves. Him saving every 3rd shot was amazing, where as my expensive storm raven so some serious hits, and never got to roll an armor save all game.
-I think DE might have the best flyers as well, The voidbomber is very good and priced well.
-We had some serious melee clashes, and got to learn a lot about the new melee rules. having to back up a few times to fix mistakes made in turn order and charging/pile rules.
-My Dreadnought felt rather ineffective, but thats mostly because every unit champion and succubi had blaster pistols and just took him down very quickly, I think I should have left him in the Stormraven for another turn.
-Those Death Company with great, and especially tough with a nicely times Sanguinary Shield from mephiston the turn before the got charged by everything (Wish I hadn't lost 3 to the raider explosion)
-Lemartes kill the most out of anything that game, he was beast, making tons of save (made 2 6+ FNP, calling that last save FNP, for old times sake, when he only had 1 wound left.)
-Mephiston felt like his old self again, pre-AP3 sword days.
Lesson Learned - Invulnerable saves are the best thing to have in this edition. With cover adding to armor, and every army having access to -3/-4AP weapons, if they want a unit to die, they can make it die, the only thing stopping them are inv saves and FNP. I saw this as I struggled to kill his vehicles despite wounds them often, and him basically laughing at my stormraven. Then again when my DC have inv saves and thet absorbed his whole army's shooting and assault in one turn to kill 7 guys. Then again with Lemartes and Mephiston shrugging off many wounds and the enemy Wytches/Succubi saving 4 wounds at the end of 2 different combats in a row on 4+ invs.
From list building efforts, we find DE can easily make a brigade army in 1850. This si something Marines just can't pull off (While staying as a marine only army of course) So we are going to have to find a way to deal with spammy list the fill out brigades.
Last point: Command points, my opponent only used his for rerolls, but they were rather effective. I time one combat to interrupts his charging and used my DC to kill a succubi that hadn't attacked yet that round, I felt that was really really strong.
Coyote81 wrote: So I had my first battle with the new Blood Angels. It was a 1500pt game against Dark Eldar (I helped him optimize his list, so it was pretty rough)
I put lemartes + 10x DC and the Dreadnought in the stormraven, flew forward quickly to force him to deal with them instead of my tactical squads placed in various terrain. With the whirldwind hiding in back.
Why not DS Lemartes with the DC since he has the re-roll to charge?
Coyote81 wrote: -My Dreadnought felt rather ineffective, but thats mostly because every unit champion and succubi had blaster pistols and just took him down very quickly, I think I should have left him in the Stormraven for another turn.
Yeah, I could tell Dreads were not going to be good sadly. The BA dreads are not killy enough to consider in my opinion. they are not going to kill enough bodies a turn to acomplish anything for their ridiculous points increase, on top of which, the Blood talons are a joke and the Furioso and DC dread are literally identical except the DC dread gets the gakky bonuses from Rage, so unless your going the frag cannon route, there really is never a reason to take furioso and that makes me sad.
Coyote81 wrote: -Those Death Company with great, and especially tough with a nicely times Sanguinary Shield from mephiston the turn before the got charged by everything (Wish I hadn't lost 3 to the raider explosion)
DC at the moment, while no wheres near as good as they were before still seem like the blood angels best go to unit since they are pretty cheap and are slightly better than assault squads, plus, since points came way down on power weapons, you can actually outfit them fairly well without having a 300+ point squad.
Coyote81 wrote: -Lemartes kill the most out of anything that game, he was beast, making tons of save (made 2 6+ FNP, calling that last save FNP, for old times sake, when he only had 1 wound left.)
When I first read the BA book, I thought Dante, Mephiston, and Lemartes all looked amazing. I am agonizing about which 2 to take in my list. Seems folly though, not to bring a psyker for Deny the witch, so I think Meph and Lemartes will be a real nice pair, but i still want to get some Dante in there, he is so good in CC now...
Coyote81 wrote: -Mephiston felt like his old self again, pre-AP3 sword days.
Awesome, glad to hear this!!
Coyote81 wrote: Lesson Learned - Invulnerable saves are the best thing to have in this edition. With cover adding to armor, and every army having access to -3/-4AP weapons, if they want a unit to die, they can make it die, the only thing stopping them are inv saves and FNP. I saw this as I struggled to kill his vehicles despite wounds them often, and him basically laughing at my stormraven. Then again when my DC have inv saves and thet absorbed his whole army's shooting and assault in one turn to kill 7 guys. Then again with Lemartes and Mephiston shrugging off many wounds and the enemy Wytches/Succubi saving 4 wounds at the end of 2 different combats in a row on 4+ invs.
Its funny that you mention this, I watched Frontline gamings live video they did yesterday, and they said invul saves were not as important, which I though was ridiculous since damn near everything modifies armor saves now.
I think for me the obvious "I want to try this" choice right off the bat for the blood angels are the 10-30 Death Company + Lemartes + Terminator Ancient + Sang Priest dropping in on turn one.
Re-rolling charges, re-roll hits and wounds in the Fight phase, Ld10, Str 5, 3 or 4 (3 power weapon or 4 chainsword) attacks each on the charge seems about as scary as it gets.
And you can get 20 DC and the three characters + weapon upgrades (I imagine i'd throw in 4 or so power swords and maybe a couple power fists?) for under 800 points, which really isn't that bad for how deadly they are likely to be.
Something to keep in mind with the DS Death Company - it's really cheap for a lot of lists to bubble wrap the center of the table and push DS deployment way, way back from any targets that matter If the bubble wrap is even 9 inches away from the rest of the force (1 movement phase) that means you'll be deep striking a minimum of 18" away,from units that matter and a clever player will make sure you have no room to DS inside that bubble.
I'm not saying DS is bad or anything, it's great, it's just maybe a little more complicated in some cases (Tau and AM are the armies that pop to mind). If DS is a big part of how you want your army to play you want to have a plan for bubble wrap.
DS? That's an option, I might hold back 1 unit of DC to DS and both HQ. Bring down the HQ's when you are in range to charge, let them rip, the last one is for either reinforcement if you've taken enough casualties, or to hit objective hopping bunnies...
This list isn't one of them "need this for that to happen" lists, it is a bunch them up, and furball the opposing forces, unit by unit...
I have very different ideas for BA. I'm thinking about a list that's equal parts CC and shooting. I'm starting with a whirlwind battery with castellan launchers at 2K.
Considering BA have generally lost some of their CC focus on their general units in 8th, you can definitely afford to take shooting units and be effective because you're not giving up the assault ability granted by our old 'chapter tactic'. So I'd definitely say having some gunline units would be cool.
I've noticed that there is not a Power Fist listed on the Death Company page in the rules leak. Do they not have access to Power Fists anymore?
And also what do you make of Command Squads (Or representations of them using all the individuals) in the new edition? Sanguinary Guard were always the more competitive choice for close combat (and they continue that trend, by the look of them) but I think the Command Squad looks a little more viable now. The only issue is that they both benefit from having the Warlord nearby, so choosing which to use as an escort would be difficult.
Coyote81 wrote: -My Dreadnought felt rather ineffective, but thats mostly because every unit champion and succubi had blaster pistols and just took him down very quickly, I think I should have left him in the Stormraven for another turn.
Yeah, I could tell Dreads were not going to be good sadly. The BA dreads are not killy enough to consider in my opinion. they are not going to kill enough bodies a turn to acomplish anything for their ridiculous points increase, on top of which, the Blood talons are a joke and the Furioso and DC dread are literally identical except the DC dread gets the gakky bonuses from Rage, so unless your going the frag cannon route, there really is never a reason to take furioso and that makes me sad.
I fought Tyranids twice this last weekend and found my Furioso with two fists quite effective. His rerolls to hit and durability kept me in those games. My Infantry just disappeared under waves of bugs. Those suckers are way too fast now.
Death Company with Jump Packs (15) - 440pts
1 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Power fist
14 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Chainsword
Death Company with Jump Packs (15) - 440pts
1 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Power fist
14 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Chainsword
Death Company with Jump Packs (15) - 440pts
1 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Power fist
14 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Chainsword
Death Company with Jump Packs (15) - 440pts
1 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Power fist
14 Death Company Marine: Hand flamer,Chainsword
I was talking about JPDC. I just wasn't calculating more than 100 pts of extra wargear, on each squad because i've always felt there just isn't any reason to run wargear on every single DC marine. In squads that size, at least 5 marines are nothing more than ablative wounds for the squad, so might as well just run a 5th squad instead. Power axes, swords, and mauls are so cheap now, at least a couple per squad i'd consider mandatory.
Coyote81 wrote: -My Dreadnought felt rather ineffective, but thats mostly because every unit champion and succubi had blaster pistols and just took him down very quickly, I think I should have left him in the Stormraven for another turn.
Yeah, I could tell Dreads were not going to be good sadly. The BA dreads are not killy enough to consider in my opinion. they are not going to kill enough bodies a turn to acomplish anything for their ridiculous points increase, on top of which, the Blood talons are a joke and the Furioso and DC dread are literally identical except the DC dread gets the gakky bonuses from Rage, so unless your going the frag cannon route, there really is never a reason to take furioso and that makes me sad.
I fought Tyranids twice this last weekend and found my Furioso with two fists quite effective. His rerolls to hit and durability kept me in those games. My Infantry just disappeared under waves of bugs. Those suckers are way too fast now.
Even still, Whats the reasoning for running a Furioso over the DC dread? He has same stats other than 1 less LD which is meaningless to vehicles, but he gets not only black rage but also insatiable special rules.
Ran 2 games today, 2k points, with a firebase + deep strike assault type list:
The firebase: Dante, corbulo, and a company ancient sit in the middle of 6 tac squads, each with a heavy weapon (I did 2 grav cannon, 2 lascannon, 2 heavy bolter,) with the whole pile of marines shoulder to shoulder in a terrain piece for cover so that Dante's reroll to hit aura, and the ancient's ld+1 and "dying guys may get an immediate shot off" aura covers everyone. Dante also provides counterattack potential while corbulo makes everyone in his aura +1str and have bonus attacks on 6's to hit in melee, making the entire firebase very threatening in cc should someone attempt to get close. A vindicaire assassin rounds out the firebase with some character sniping.
The flank team: Lemartes, the Sanguinor, and a power fist jump priest accompany 3 sets of 5 jump DC, each with one power sword wielder, on some deep strike charge attempts, which Lemmy and the DC get to reroll. The three characters end up giving the DC rerolls to hit, +1a, +1s for being nearby, as well as being very threatening themselves.
The spec ops: The last of the list is the other 3 assassins, who show up at the same time as the DC, but, not benefitting from the character auras, are free to try to hit other targets of opportunity and attempt to cause mayhem. There are also 6 shotgun scouts that attempt to find a good LOS hiding spot midfield to see if they can create trouble.
I'll just go over the game against meched up marines. 3 lascannon razorbacks, a land raider godhammer, tac squads in the 'backs with a combi-melta each, one of which has a captain, and a contemptor dread, along with a deep strike force of a chaplain and 10 ASM. Lastly there was a full set of 3 tech marines and 3 thunderfire cannons in hiding.
He went first, roving on up and leaving the jumpers out for the turn. Shots go into the marine blob, knocking out a few boltguns. As a point of humor, the first guy to drop did a reaction shot from the banner, my first shot of the new edition, and successfully stuck a wound on the land raider with his bolter. (Lulz)
My turn, scouts and a DC charged a razorback on a far flank, two of the assassins charged the tfc's from one side while a DC and lemmy came at them from the other, sangy, the priest, and the third DC failed to reach anyone. Heavy weapons knocked the LR down to its middle health bracket, the tfc's took some pain, losing 2 techies that intervened and a cannon, and the squads on the razor flubbed, only getting a couple wounds on it.
He responded by emptying that razor as well as one nearby, flubbed his shots at the DC that failed to charge anyone last turn, and the dread, last razor, and LR continued to pressure the firebase, while the chappy and ASM jumped in to mess them up a bit. Only the asm made the charge, Dante intervened and the asm squad was barely alive. The tfc group got finished off while the captain joined his razorback in melee, KO'ing some DC.
The Callidus went over to start neural shredding the crippled land raider, while everyone else from the flank team joined in on the captain and razorback, knocking out both. The firebase pistol'd themselves out of combat and then got in on the chaplain, who managed to down the banner-man before dropping. (I should probably not charge good enemy characters with a bolter-equipped banner dude.)
He got the contemptor into the firebase marines, removing a squad, while the LR and lasbacks tried to whittle down the flank forces, but just knocked out a nameless joe here and there.
Everyone from the firebase hopped in on the dread, while the flank forces steamrolled over two packs of marines and the razorback on that side of the field, and began heading towards the last razor and LR. Two points of interest: a wounded Lemartes died to a razorback melee attack after being previously wounded by techmarine servo-arm, and Dante flubbed hurting the dread, and only lived thanks to the FNP-warlord trait. (6 hits, 0 wounds with s7 -_-). But we scratched some paint on it with marines.
Dread stomped Dante, dudes got out of the last razor and fired frantically, doing nothing of note, along with crippled raider and the razor, which fry a guy or two. Corbulo and the last few marines scratch the dread some more while losing a few more dudes.
The flank forces reach the pair of vehicles and 5 man marine squad, which all evaporate under the combined shots and charges of sangy, fist-priest, remnants of 3 dc squads, scouts, and 3 assassins. Dread is getting hurt and is missing in combat.
Dread continues to degrade, and is the last model left. Does knock the firebase crew down to 3 heavy weapons and corbulo, but on my following turn, more than half of the flank forces reach him, and Sangy slays him personally, clearing the table. Of note vindicaire was shooting the whole time, but virtually never had an infantry target available that was worth shooting at. He ended up stripping the raider of a few wounds through the game.
So, things of note:
-Characters with cool auras all encouraging several squads at once seem pretty good.
-Don't charge with bad characters that have cool auras.
-It seems very easy to have a squad kill another allied squad out of striking range. Character badasses like sangy and assassins are especially guilty of this.
-msu heavy weapon tac squads seem to work nice, but the downside of msu is that you never get to go first. :(
-not having random or forced reserve arrival is awesome.
-while corby is damn cool in the middle of a bunch of dudes, I don't think he's worth it in this list. He basically just brought back a couple bolter marines and then fought in melee the rest of the time. May replace him for a bit more firepower like a dev squad.
I've noticed that there is not a Power Fist listed on the Death Company page in the rules leak. Do they not have access to Power Fists anymore?
Very first Wargear option: Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a boltgun, hand flamer, inferno pistol, plasma pistol, power, axe, fist, maul, or sword. Any model may replace chainsword with power axe, fist, maul, or sword. No sure why stas aren't listed on Datasheet. Oversight typo 1st edition release error would be my guess.
And I'm not saying my All DC is best to play, but it is fluffy and fun as hell...
So after doing some more scanning on the generic space marine units, I think Vanguard vets are a better by then DC. I can get a VV with jumppack and storm shield for 23pts. that is 3 attacks every round with a 3++ and the champ can take a relic blade. DC with jumppacks cost 20, and I found that 6+ FNP is rather worthless, think i rolled it once all game, and only on Lemartes. With all the armor modifiers out there, inv saves seem to be a must and VV with storm shields are "cheap as chips". Sorry it's a saying stuck in my head lately from various British battle reports.
So for 255pts you get 10x VV with Stormshields, 9x Chainswords and 1x Relicblade, 1x Melta Bomb 10x Jumpppacks. Follow them around with a priest for +1S and reviving 3++ save models is really good imo. Maybe lead by the Sanguinor for +1A
Random other thought:
-The only other way to reduce enemy shooting effectiveness (other then taking inv saves) is to make them no hit so well. how do we do this? Well Stormravens come with an inherit -1 to hit them. But if we look to our allies, there are ways to further reduce shooting. If we bring either a Dark Angel Librarian or a Space Wolf rune Priest, then we gain access to psychic powers that give enemy units -1 to hit. we could even bring both.
Example Scenario: fly 2x stormraven with VVs (no packs) 1 with a priest with a JP and the other Sanguinor, After we move the stormravens into the appropiate position, we deepstrike in our librarian/runepriest within range to give negative modifiers to the units most likely to kill the storm ravens. Noone can target the librarians because the stormraven is the closer unit. No the enemy units most likely to kill the storm ravens are at -2 maybe even -3 to hit. Even worse if they need to move.
Here is a list with that idea in mind:
2000pts
Vanguard Detachment
HQ Sanguinor
Elite Vangaurd Vets x10- 9x CS 1x RB Elite Vangaurd Vets x10- 9x CS 1x RB Elite Evesor Assassin
Flyer Stormraven- TAC, TML, 2x HUR, 2x SSM
Flyer Stormraven- TAC, TML, 2x HUR, 2x SSM
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Rune Priest JP Runic Sword
HQDA Librarian JP Force Sword
Heavy Devastatorsx5- 4x Las, Cherub
Heavy Devastatorsx5- 4x Las, Cherub
Heavy Whirlwind- Castellan Launcher
Sanguinary guard seem like one of the best units in any SM rules list this edition. 2 wounds, good armor save and GREAT wargear at a fairly low cost make me feel like they're one of the go to units in our army.
Baal Predators seem hot too as fire support.
Are psykers THAT important right now? Mephiston seems really good, but I don't really want to take him over some of the other HQs. My personal choice is The Sanguinor (who's my favorite HQ in the book), Lemartes, and a Sanguinary Priest. Taking 2 detatchments isn't hard, so a 3rd or 4th HQ slot is very available.
th3maninblak wrote: Sanguinary guard seem like one of the best units in any SM rules list this edition. 2 wounds, good armor save and GREAT wargear at a fairly low cost make me feel like they're one of the go to units in our army.
Baal Predators seem hot too as fire support.
Are psykers THAT important right now? Mephiston seems really good, but I don't really want to take him over some of the other HQs. My personal choice is The Sanguinor (who's my favorite HQ in the book), Lemartes, and a Sanguinary Priest. Taking 2 detatchments isn't hard, so a 3rd or 4th HQ slot is very available.
Baal Predators are overcosted sadly. You're better running Razorbacks.
Twin AC Razor is 100pts, Twin AC Baal is 142 points - for those extra 42 points you just get an extra wound and the not very good overcharged engines (whilst also loosing transport capacity). You can sink more points into the Baal of course with sponsons, but then you're making it 162 points...
You can debate Twin HF Razors are cheaper and better than Flamestorm Baals too.
Anyhoo, as Martel mentioned, I think Twin HF Razors have good synergy with BA to push up and support BA jump units. Playing first game of 8th ed at 750pts to test things out and will trying HF Razors
Sang Priest w/ JP, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword
5x Sang Guard w/ 5x Plasma Pistols, 4x Swords, 1x Fist
5x Tacs w/ Combi-Melta, Power Sword, Meltagun
5x Tacs w/ Combi-Melta, Power Sword, Meltagun
Razorback w/ Twin HF, Storm Bolter
Razorback w/ Twin HF, Storm Bolter
Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.
th3maninblak wrote: Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.
Just beware using overcharge on the twin plasmagun, it does indeed oneshot the razorback.
th3maninblak wrote: Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.
I think the Twin Las, Twin AC and Twin HF Razors are probably the best - for backfield, midfield and opponent deployment zone respectively.
The Twin HB is 'ok' but I'd still probably want to spend a bit more for the Twin AC
The Las/Plas Razor is in a funny place. You'll be driving the Razor up to get into 12/24" range for the Twin Plasma, meaning the Lascannon will be at -1 to hit mostly. It's not bad, but I'd still probably pick one of the other choices.
Stormbolters at 2pts seem like a bit of a no brainer upgrade for Razors now
th3maninblak wrote: Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.
I think the Twin Las, Twin AC and Twin HF Razors are probably the best - for backfield, midfield and opponent deployment zone respectively.
The Twin HB is 'ok' but I'd still probably want to spend a bit more for the Twin AC
The Las/Plas Razor is in a funny place. You'll be driving the Razor up to get into 12/24" range for the Twin Plasma, meaning the Lascannon will be at -1 to hit mostly. It's not bad, but I'd still probably pick one of the other choices.
Stormbolters at 2pts seem like a bit of a no brainer upgrade for Razors now
I actually found my Las/TWplas Razorback to be great for protecting my backfield. I was laying down Lascannon shots down field at the enemy riptide while double tapping (and crossing my fingers as I overcharged) at Crisis suits on my flanks.
Take a Devastator squad, equip them with missile launchers or whatever (I'm liking the ML rules now) and put them in a Las/Plas Razorback. The Devs can use the Razorback as cover and both units can easily reach across the field. A Razorback in the back field is actually a great little support unit, because it'll either have to be ignored and thus can shoot all game or it'll draw fire from all your assault units.
Speaking of assault units: Vanguard Veterans vs. Death Company vs. Assault Terminators vs. Sanguinary Guard. What are we thinking?
In 7th Veterans were useless, Terminators were given Hammers to hunt monsters, Death Company did whatever the hell they wanted and Sanguinary Guard were elites hunters.
I think the Terminators haven't changed too much, as Death Company would probably force more wounds than Lightning Claws leaving the Hammers as a good choice for high strength, high AP attacks - plus the shield's invul helps a lot.
I'm honestly not sure which is better out of Vanguard Vets or Sang. Guard for elites hunting, the Vets have much better options in terms of pure selection, but Sanguinary Guard look good as a retinue for a Captain due to their access to the Ancient and Death Masks.
Death Company seem to just be doing their thing as usual. Killing everything and not giving a damn, just now they have competition from Vanguard Veterans (I'm so glad they're actually good now).
DC can go in transports as well as have jump packs. Lemartes gives them a re-roll on charge distance after jump pack assault (the only one in the BA list outside of burning CPs)
SG can do a half way decent alpha strike with Supercharged Plasma Pistols (cheaper than Angelus Boltguns).
Assault Terminators probably need a Raider. You can Teleport them if you want, but after that you're waddling around at M5"
I suspect Tactical Terminators are actually a better choice outside of a Raider.
Vanguard Vets damage output isn't that great, and you have less bubble bonuses available to you. You can take Storm Shields, but you're still essentially T4/3+
Btw, do I get this right? Assault weapons let you advance and still shoot at -1 BS. Flamestorm and Fragcannons are assault autohit weapons. Means baalpred and furioso can speed around, just sacrificing the optional heavy flamers shots? For sure nothing to build an army around, but interesting.
Also I've noticed, that our dreads are faster than regular ones. Cool thing!
I can see good synergy between Flamestorm Baals, Twin HF Razors and jumpers.
Drive the tanks at your opponents, and if they get assaulted they still get to shoot at full during overwatch. Drop the jumpers in to counterassault and/or shoot with Pistols.
Edit - Should be noted for BA Dreads that Meltaguns are assault too (albeit at -1 to hit after advancing). I'm beginning to like BA Dreads are bit more now.
I still have reasons why I will use dakka Baals, even they are slightly overcosted. One reason is that I don't own assault cannon razors, but another will be to maximize Dante's bubble.
I can see good synergy between Flamestorm Baals, Twin HF Razors and jumpers.
Drive the tanks at your opponents, and if they get assaulted they still get to shoot at full during overwatch. Drop the jumpers in to counterassault and/or shoot with Pistols.
Edit - Should be noted for BA Dreads that Meltaguns are assault too (albeit at -1 to hit after advancing). I'm beginning to like BA Dreads are bit more now.
But you can't advance and shoot with tha heavy flamers. They changed them to type heavy. Still nice for overwatch and turn 2 roasting.
Bartali wrote: Should be noted for BA Dreads that Meltaguns are assault too (albeit at -1 to hit after advancing). I'm beginning to like BA Dreads are bit more now.
Yup. Fragiosos look as effective as ever, and Death Company Dreadnoughts are looking pretty sweet given their improved movement. The Librarian Dreadnought also looks a little more effective than before - not a must-take, or super competitive, but it does look good.
Bartali wrote: Yes you can. Twin Heavy Flamers on the Razorback are Assault 2d6
Huh! Indeed, they are assault. But a single heavy flamer is heavy? That seems kinda strange.
Anyway, looking foreward to my first 8th match tonight. Wanna try lemartes an DC and DC dread.
Am I the only one who is seeing some real alpha strike potential in our veterans who can take jump packs.
In a 2k game which feels the new 1850p, you can use 20% of your force for the alpha striking, like in the 7th ed. With your podding meltacide assault guys..
Vanguard detachment with the following:
Captain with jump pack and combi-melta
3man company veterans with combi-melta and 2x melta & storm shield
3man company veterans with combi-melta and 2x melta & storm shields
2man company veterans with combi-melta and melta & storm shield
Costs 451 points, ok over 20%, but man that is real potent threat from 9" away T1 at any targets. You can even start shooting with your capt, then the 2man squad, to help you choose targets.
Now, with the uptuned plasma, the same thing above but with melta word swapped to plasma costs only 415 points. From 9" away you can rapid fire your plasma guns. Taken with the captain for those rerolls of 1, you can quite safely super charge your plasma guns in the rapid fire range giving you total of 18 plasma shots which do 2 damage and you get to reroll ones.
This sounds mean atleast to me. With 5x storm shields your opponent will need to concentrate his fire to get these nuisances out of the way giving your sanguinary guard and death company the precious time to advance into the charge range and do the Blood angels proud again.
Now that I got this into my mind, I'm having hard time not involving this kind of BA goodness into my lists, or even with lists with other factions..
Plasma gun costs 13 plasma pistol 7
grav gun costs 15 grav pistol 8
Can anyone enlighten me why does inferno pistol cost 20 and hand flamer 8 while meltagun is 17 and regular flamer 9?
Pasek wrote: Plasma gun costs 13 plasma pistol 7
grav gun costs 15 grav pistol 8
Can anyone enlighten me why does inferno pistol cost 20 and hand flamer 8 while meltagun is 17 and regular flamer 9?
The hand flamer/flamer one is because they really aren't all that different.
The inferno pistol one, I have no freakin clue, it actually makes me made they cost is absurd.
I've can't understand the thinking behind the Infernus Pistol pricing.
They can be spammed I guess, more so than Meltaguns can be - i.e. put on any Sang Guard or Death Company model, which the pricing may reflect that ?
They can of course be used in CC, which again may reflect their pricing ? Their deadlier than a Powerfist, and they're 20pts.
However despite their power and potential to be spammed, they're very situational. The range is poor, so you can't fire them on a drop from a jump pack assault. You can only shoot pistols in protected assaults, which BA aren't very good at.
In short, increase their utility or drop their price
Bartali wrote: I've can't understand the thinking behind the Infernus Pistol pricing.
They can be spammed I guess, more so than Meltaguns can be - i.e. put on any Sang Guard or Death Company model, which the pricing may reflect that ?
They can of course be used in CC, which again may reflect their pricing ? Their deadlier than a Powerfist, and they're 20pts.
However despite their power and potential to be spammed, they're very situational. The range is poor, so you can't fire them on a drop from a jump pack assault. You can only shoot pistols in protected assaults, which BA aren't very good at.
In short, increase their utility or drop their price
It's their ability to be used in CC that's the real price kicker. Being able to drop potentially 6 wounds on a vehicle/dread/monster when you should be "locked" in melee isn't bad really.
Now, it remains to be seen if it's actually going to happen all that often, and warrant the points hike for the pistol. I can't see pistols being fired in melee very often frankly. If you charge and "have the upper hand" your opponent will walk out of melee and you will get shot up, but you will get to fire the next shooting phase with the pistol or a melta-gun, so no difference anyways, assuming you survive. If you GET charged by something huge and scary, you will probably want to disengage if you survive at all, and you wouldn't get to shoot either...again, the same. The only difference is when both players want to "stick it out" and grind the melee over multiple turns....which I don't see happening super often.
Okay, so I know at as a collective we can agree that giving Vangaurd Veterans shields is a universally awesome idea. But what sort of weapons are recommended? Chainswords, to keep attack numbers up without raising cost too much? Power weapons for that extra AP? Thunder Hammers for huge damage?
Also I'm thinking of maybe running the Sergeant with twin Lightning Claws. Sure, he gives up that sweet, sweet invulnerable save, but he would make a good number of attacks on the charge. It's probably not competitive, but I think it'd be cool.
The hand flamer/flamer one is because they really aren't all that different.
Half hits and -1S shouldnt be worth 1pts discount to me but well just give BA their uniq weapon so they cant use them.
As for Inferno pistols price beeing justified by option to fire in melee - every pistol has it, hasnt it? So it really bugs me as if they had normal price(~10) some cool builds like tactical sergeant with x2 inferno pistols(assault one can only take one:( ) could be viable and as for now you are always better off with meltaguns/combis
As for the vanguards, they seem better then dc. I would deffinetly give fist/hammer to sergeant as he has 3 attacks, some mix of axes/swords, then 2-3 guys with ss and some vanilla to soak up wounds.
But my favorite are company vets with JP(only BA thing) loaded with plasma and DSing with Captian with either term armour or JP into rapid fire range
The hand flamer/flamer one is because they really aren't all that different.
Half hits and -1S shouldnt be worth 1pts discount to me but well just give BA their uniq weapon so they cant use them.
As for Inferno pistols price beeing justified by option to fire in melee - every pistol has it, hasnt it? So it really bugs me as if they had normal price(~10) some cool builds like tactical sergeant with x2 inferno pistols(assault one can only take one:( ) could be viable and as for now you are always better off with meltaguns/combis
As for the vanguards, they seem better then dc. I would deffinetly give fist/hammer to sergeant as he has 3 attacks, some mix of axes/swords, then 2-3 guys with ss and some vanilla to soak up wounds.
But my favorite are company vets with JP(only BA thing) loaded with plasma and DSing with Captian with either term armour or JP into rapid fire range
I'm planning on giving my Sgt a Relic Blade and storm shield, not -1 to hit is nice. That Company vet squad your planning on taking is what I used to do with my BA, command squad. Always loved the 4x plasmaguns. It's a bit more expensive now. Especially if you decide to take those lovely 5pt storm shields.
Infernus pistols are pistols that cause D6 damage. Plasma pistols realistically cause 1. 2, rarely. Infernus pistols also have another AP point, making saving them almost impossible. That's why they are so expensive. And it's not like BA can't close quickly. Who cares if you can't use them the turn you deep strike? That's not what they are for.
I'm a really big fan of most of the HQs this edition, and now that Mephiston has that brand new sword, I'm trying to figure out the best way to run him. Anyone who's used him yet have any good tips?
FlashyGit wrote: I'm a really big fan of most of the HQs this edition, and now that Mephiston has that brand new sword, I'm trying to figure out the best way to run him. Anyone who's used him yet have any good tips?
Yeah, the BAHQ's seem like they are going to be very killy. Specially Meph, Dante, Sanguinor, and Lemartes.
FlashyGit wrote: I'm a really big fan of most of the HQs this edition, and now that Mephiston has that brand new sword, I'm trying to figure out the best way to run him. Anyone who's used him yet have any good tips?
Yeah, the BAHQ's seem like they are going to be very killy. Specially Meph, Dante, Sanguinor, and Lemartes.
I'm having a hard time picking, because honestly all of our HQs can be good. Astaroth is definitely worth a look, his buffs are excellent if you're running DC with lemartes. Even captain Tycho is worth a look... Budget captain with 2+ save giving out re rolls if you use combimelta sternguard or trying out the hellblaster primaris.
i'm liking Dante because he's a complete badass in CC, and Mephiston alot as well for the same reason plus a pair of good psychic powers, but after playing some 8th edition, i'm seeing that getting charges in after DS reliably is going to need something like Lemartes' ability to get them there.
I'm really hoping once BA get their own dex that they get back decent of angels ability that helps get them into CC. maybe be able to land a couple inches closer or something.
I was gutted to see Shrike lets Raven Guard Jump Infantry re-roll charges while for us lamartes can only do that for the death company.
Dante wrecks face in combat but he doesn't seem to buff the army as much as some of the other chapter masters do.
Azrael gives invulns out, Shrike lets you re-roll charges, Pedro gives everyone an extra attack, Helbrecht gives everyone +1 Strength, Calgar gives you an extra 2cp, what does Dante get? -1 to opponents leadership which is exactly what sanguinary guard can do! Surely the most experienced living marine should do a bit more than that?
Azrael gives invulns out, Shrike lets you re-roll charges, Pedro gives everyone an extra attack, Helbrecht gives everyone +1 Strength, Calgar gives you an extra 2cp, what does Dante get? -1 to opponents leadership which is exactly what sanguinary guard can do! Surely the most experienced living marine should do a bit more than that?
He's still probably the best fighter out of all of em, though, so well, you can't have everything. I'm not complaining.
Good point about him being the most experienced 'living' marine though. If you count years conscious, he's older than Roboute, isn't he?
Azrael gives invulns out, Shrike lets you re-roll charges, Pedro gives everyone an extra attack, Helbrecht gives everyone +1 Strength, Calgar gives you an extra 2cp, what does Dante get? -1 to opponents leadership which is exactly what sanguinary guard can do! Surely the most experienced living marine should do a bit more than that?
He's still probably the best fighter out of all of em, though, so well, you can't have everything. I'm not complaining.
Good point about him being the most experienced 'living' marine though. If you count years conscious, he's older than Roboute, isn't he?
Yeah Guillimans what? 300? depends how long after the horus heresy he was put into stasis. Dante's over 2000 isn't he?
No sources say how old he is exactly (as far as I know), but he's been chapter master for over 1,200 years, so assuming he's at LEAST 1,300 years old seems reasonable.
Bartali wrote: I've can't understand the thinking behind the Infernus Pistol pricing.
They can be spammed I guess, more so than Meltaguns can be - i.e. put on any Sang Guard or Death Company model, which the pricing may reflect that ?
They can of course be used in CC, which again may reflect their pricing ? Their deadlier than a Powerfist, and they're 20pts.
However despite their power and potential to be spammed, they're very situational. The range is poor, so you can't fire them on a drop from a jump pack assault. You can only shoot pistols in protected assaults, which BA aren't very good at.
In short, increase their utility or drop their price
It's their ability to be used in CC that's the real price kicker. Being able to drop potentially 6 wounds on a vehicle/dread/monster when you should be "locked" in melee isn't bad really.
Now, it remains to be seen if it's actually going to happen all that often, and warrant the points hike for the pistol. I can't see pistols being fired in melee very often frankly. If you charge and "have the upper hand" your opponent will walk out of melee and you will get shot up, but you will get to fire the next shooting phase with the pistol or a melta-gun, so no difference anyways, assuming you survive. If you GET charged by something huge and scary, you will probably want to disengage if you survive at all, and you wouldn't get to shoot either...again, the same. The only difference is when both players want to "stick it out" and grind the melee over multiple turns....which I don't see happening super often.
Just noticed Harlies get to pay 9pts for their Fusion Pistols (identical to Infernus Pistols). Hey ho.
soomemafia wrote: I haven't familiarized myself with the codex properly yet, so I have a question.
How do you fellas feel about Land Speeders now? I hear that their movement is now 16" (?), so their effective range is pretty notable.
I've really being wanting to bring 3x Landspeeders with double heavy flamer. that 20" move plus advance and flame stuff with 6d6 auto hits sounds amazing, but it also costs ~350pts
soomemafia wrote: I haven't familiarized myself with the codex properly yet, so I have a question.
How do you fellas feel about Land Speeders now? I hear that their movement is now 16" (?), so their effective range is pretty notable.
I've really being wanting to bring 3x Landspeeders with double heavy flamer. that 20" move plus advance and flame stuff with 6d6 auto hits sounds amazing, but it also costs ~350pts
Can't advance and fire the heavy flamers on Land Speeders, they're Heavy. Same as with the Heavy Flamer sponsons on Baals - which is annoying when the Flamestorm Cannon is Assault.
Can do it on Razorbacks though - they're Twin Heavy Flamers, which are Assault.
3x Twin Flamer Razors are 53pts cheaper than taking 3 Speeders.
Flamer Razors have an effective range of 21-26" compared to 24" of a singular Land Speeder
For an army that want's to get in and punch stuff, Twin Heavy Flamer Razors are very good.
I can't quite figure out what would be the best AT for us... Lascannons are good, but Predator seems too expensive. And deep striking doesn't get Meltaguns close enough for efficent damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. looking forward to seeing the new rules for Sicaran Battle Tanks!
They just might solve this problem for me.
Walnuts wrote: I feel like the predator in practice will be better AT thank you think. Keep in mind that autocannon on it causes THREE wounds per hit. Not bad!
Yeah, the predator auto cannon is a bit better than standard autocannon. 2D3 hits and 3 damage, so its a decent upgrade, so much so that its only 1 point cheaper than the twin lascannon, so no longer is the AC/LC pred much cheaper than the tri-las pred.
So two very strong shots or four somewhat weaker shots, about the same points either way. I guess I'll need to get a few games under my belt before I decide whether it's worth the points or not, but either way, it seems like in 8th edition you're going to have to take vehicles down the way you take them down in 30k. Throw lots of long range dakka right at the front of them.
Also hopefully once dreadnought drop pods become a thing for us we can throw our magna-grapple dreads at vehicles
Well MY thoughts, are Interceptors maybe. Course I think Tactical Squads are a waste in BA, especially since we don't need them anymore. Two Vanguards and a Outrider should get you everything you would want, for just as many CP as a Battalion without having to pay troop tax.
Characters, DC, Vet Assault, Assault, Dreads, Devs with Multi's or Heavy Flamers maybe, Stormravens, and then whatever vehicles you can afford...
I can't quite figure out what would be the best AT for us... Lascannons are good, but Predator seems too expensive. And deep striking doesn't get Meltaguns close enough for efficent damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. looking forward to seeing the new rules for Sicaran Battle Tanks!
They just might solve this problem for me.
Could do with some improvement to be honest. Plasma (Pistols) should go on the Sang Guard - they're cheaper than Angelus Boltguns and with Heirs of Azkaelleon they can fire overcharged shots and re-roll those 1s.
Secondly, how do you plan to get those Sang Guard up the table and into combat ? You could run them behind the Razors, but then the Twin AC doesn't want to have permanent -1 to hit from moving all the time. Ditto the Tacs that aren't really kitted out for getting up close.
Personal preference, I'd probably change the Razors over to Twin Flamer and give the Tacs Melta/Combi-Meta. Drive the Razors up the table and set up assaults for the Sang Guard (run them behind the Razors, or deep strike them in turn 2). Pop the Tacs out the Razors to go shoot tanks.
I don't quite agree on having Meltaguns on small Tac squads or HF on Razorbacks.
Until we get some short of chapter tactics, tacticals are not meant for close combat. But the insane amount of AC shots give you a good control of the midfield.
And besides, with 12 shots per tank, the - 1 to hit isn't a gamechanger.
Transports are literally meant for board control so I prefer to give them longer range even if it means less impact (which it definitely does not).
But you are right about Plasma on SG, didn't realize they were cheaper. Wonder what happened there...
Jdredsox wrote: What are people's thoughts on the new primaris marines? Do they have a place in a BA list or are there better options for their roles?
I'm really looking forward to trying the bolter guys as a footslogging mid-field objective capping unit. The plasma dudes look great if you wanted to do, like, a re-roll gunline with tycho or something. The jump pack guys seem like they have potential, but maaaaaan, I like my jump pack fighters packing swords and covered in ropes and studs and chains and stuff. The primaris dudes just look too clean and uh, practical
I'm going to give them a try, we'll see how it works...
If you go jump pack army, I think the intercesors are going to be pretty good. 18 shots at str 5, with a -1 AP. Drop Dante down near them and they get re-rolls to hit on those 18 shots and then Dante can go eat another squad. plus, they have fly keyword so even if they get charged, they are T5 with 2 wounds, so they can jump back out of CC and fire again.
The rest of the guys so far i'm not as enthralled with. the plasma guys seem like more expensive stern guard, and Sternguard seem like they might be more effective just coming down in a DP and combi shooting whatever they need dead.
Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?
Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.
But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.
31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.
Walnuts wrote: Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?
Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.
But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.
31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.
Did you know it's 32pts for a Company Veteran with Jumppack Chainsword and Plasmagun?
bobafett012 wrote: If you go jump pack army, I think the intercesors are going to be pretty good. 18 shots at str 5, with a -1 AP. Drop Dante down near them and they get re-rolls to hit on those 18 shots and then Dante can go eat another squad. plus, they have fly keyword so even if they get charged, they are T5 with 2 wounds, so they can jump back out of CC and fire again.
The rest of the guys so far i'm not as enthralled with. the plasma guys seem like more expensive stern guard, and Sternguard seem like they might be more effective just coming down in a DP and combi shooting whatever they need dead.
Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.
Intercessor = Tactical Squad+. Not sure why you want bolter boys.....ever. I'm not sure they are really much better than normal tacticals point for point either.
Whoo yeah, good point. Also it'll be really amusing to FINALLY actually have a reason to use a jump pack plasma gun guy like 20 years after buying the 3rd edition blood angels honor guard box that had a plasma gun / jump pack model on the cover that you'd have to be INSANE to actually use.
(for you kids out there, in 3rd ed you could charge after shooting a rapid fire weapon, but if you moved or deep struck you could only fire them once up to 12", so it was just an expensive plasma pistol that gave you -1 attack :/ )
bobafett012 wrote: If you go jump pack army, I think the intercesors are going to be pretty good. 18 shots at str 5, with a -1 AP. Drop Dante down near them and they get re-rolls to hit on those 18 shots and then Dante can go eat another squad. plus, they have fly keyword so even if they get charged, they are T5 with 2 wounds, so they can jump back out of CC and fire again.
The rest of the guys so far i'm not as enthralled with. the plasma guys seem like more expensive stern guard, and Sternguard seem like they might be more effective just coming down in a DP and combi shooting whatever they need dead.
Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.
Intercessor = Tactical Squad+. Not sure why you want bolter boys.....ever. I'm not sure they are really much better than normal tacticals point for point either.
Watch your naming.
not my stupid ass names, they are GW's. I don't care what they are called, I think the whole line is a joke to begin with. And yeah, I didn't realize you have to pay 15 per assault bolter, must have not checked them once the actual book came out because I was thinking they were 45 points a piece. at 135 for 3, that wouldn't be too bad, but yeah, at 225, thats dumb as hell.
Ahah, yeah, I'm having a hard time remembering their names too. Like, I get that it's all made up names for totally fictional things, but man, they could have made it a little more intuitive.
Primaris tactical squad. Primaris Assault squad. Primaris devastator squad.
Is that so hard?
Walnuts wrote: Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?
Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.
But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.
31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.
Did you know it's 32pts for a Company Veteran with Jumppack Chainsword and Plasmagun?
Does anyone think that this unit might be worth it? They don't seem to be filling any necessary battlefield role the way I see it.
And another question, has anyone any good reason to field Baal Predators? I'm not overly enthusiastic with the thought of playing my two Baals as counts-as Razorbacks...
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. does anyone see any value in playing a Drop Pod list anymore? 105 points for better deployment when 90% of our army can deep strike without risk on 1st turn.
What are we supposed to use it for? Dreadnoughts I guess?
Played my first game of 8th today and I lost. One point lost against chaos. Game winning thing was that when I got a charge with my 7man death company with jump packs, two power swords, two inferno pistols and a thunder hammer against Kharn. Lemartes was there buffing the charge, but was out of charge range so I had to fight against Kharn with only 7 death company marines. Resulting two wounds against Kharn and the whole death company wiped in that charge phase. Don't think the dice were even that bad against me, invulnerable save is so good and the fact that Kharn can attack twice.. Another key factor against my enemy was the fact that when my opponents khorne berzerkers got into an assault I was done, the feat to double attack is so crazy. Ok, he killed my tactical units with zerkers, but actually tar pitted my lascannon razorback was a real downer for me. I tried to flee from combat to get away and shoot with my twin lascannon he always got into fight with me so that all I could do was try to go away and he followed. We had the 18" non-deployment circle with corners as deployment areas. It's brutal to be able to deploy just 18" away from enemy border.
Assault cannon seemed good, but he took my AC razor to 1hp on T1 when he went first, I tried to seize even with the stratagem reroll, didn't manage,
Only thing really performed me was my 3man company veterans from DS with 3 supercharge rapid firing plasma guns, whom took a helbrute in a single turn.
I also totally anhilliated a havocs group with my death company and got carried away by that , which ended up me throwing my DC against 4+ inv. save on the Kharn. Kharn has 5 attacks and ability to attack twice EVERY turn, so he did damage, then he did it again. with 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, on a 6 to generate more hits.. -4 AP. He was a beast. Actually I think it's a good thing that chaos has got some ups for the characters that are now being viable with rhinos. Why would you shoot a rhino during the game when you have targets like havocs or even tactical squad with heavy/special around. A week ago I would have said rhino's are a no bargain in any list, but now they seem a very decent method of transportation that you don't want to shoot, because it's just a rhino.
Btw, Dread's don't fit into normal pods.
Also I played my baal pred as AC razorback. Can't really see why on earth I would pay that much points for 1 HP and overcharged engines.
Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...
Walnuts wrote: Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?
Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.
But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.
31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.
Did you know it's 32pts for a Company Veteran with Jumppack Chainsword and Plasmagun?
Does anyone think that this unit might be worth it? They don't seem to be filling any necessary battlefield role the way I see it.
And another question, has anyone any good reason to field Baal Predators? I'm not overly enthusiastic with the thought of playing my two Baals as counts-as Razorbacks...
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. does anyone see any value in playing a Drop Pod list anymore? 105 points for better deployment when 90% of our army can deep strike without risk on 1st turn.
What are we supposed to use it for? Dreadnoughts I guess?
Pinpoint dropping plasmaguns are very good, you can really catch people offguard with characters not properly positioned, so elite units just brought down hard. You can make the unit whatever size you want too, 2-5 models. 65pts for a Sergeant with a combi-plasma and a single plasmagun guy.
Walnuts wrote: Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...
Lemartes was dropped out of buff range when he couldn't join the assault. He only gave the reroll for the charge. If I remember correctly it was like: 3 hits from thunder hammer hitting 4+ and wounding on 2+ resulting 1 wounding which was negated by 4+ invul. save. Two power swords made 6 attacks with 3+ to hit 4+ to wound and 4+ invul. save resulting 0 wounds. Then 16 regular attacks from the remaining 4 death company marines wielding a chainsword did 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 3+ armour save resulting 2 wounds. Then Kharn killed four guys and on the double attack killed the remaining three. I should have needed better dice rolls and Lemartes should have been in the charge range as well. Aligning the models for next rounds charge would have given the opponent the opportunity to move and charge the DC which I didn't want. I had two CP left and wanted to save the CP's for intervention on the fight phase if my opponent multi-charged my units. Could have used it for thunder hammer hits, but for the fore mentioned reason I canceled the CP, I took the reroll getting second hit, but canceled it before Kharn took inv. save. I really thought 6 power sword and 16 basic attacks would have done a lot more. 4+ inv. save with 1 reroll if I remember correctly made my charge advantage go away.
Jesus... How are they supposed to be played? Stormraven can still hold them, right?
Stormraven, yes. Furioso and DC dread are M 8" vs. normal dread being just M 6". They don't have a damage table like rhino's or even helbrutes so they can work they way T1-2 and sustain some hits. Throw Shield of sanguinius at them for 4+ inv. save to get in to combat, while there they should do ok. DC dread has 6" consolidation. FW has a dread drop pod, haven't seen the rules how it works, but I know it's there. I took a helbrute with my jump packed company veterans loaded with super charged plasma guns on T1 on the first game I had, but still I think that if opponent concentrates that much fire power on a single model others are safe. In the fore mentioned game my enemy tried to take out my AC razor with everything resulting to 1hp left on the razor at 1k point value. He had havocs etc.. (both lists visible at army lists section).
I just don't see how a M8" unit with only 8 wounds could get into combat.
The enemy can easily ignore it on the first turn and should be able to take it out with decent AT, or at least manouver so that it cannot charge anything vital and finish it off on 3rd turn.
Maybe fielding two might make sure that one of them makes it and Shield of Sanguinius obivously helps that, but they still seem like way-too-expensive distraction Carnifexes.
Guhhh yeah, losing the lemartes buff is huge. You need to get that thunder hammer from 1.5 hits to 2.25 hits because if even one gets through the invul save, BAM three wounds gone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
soomemafia wrote: I just don't see how a M8" unit with only 8 wounds could get into combat.
The enemy can easily ignore it on the first turn and should be able to take it out with decent AT, or at least manouver so that it cannot charge anything vital and finish it off on 3rd turn.
Maybe fielding two might make sure that one of them makes it and Shield of Sanguinius obivously helps that, but they still seem like way-too-expensive distraction Carnifexes.
Shield of Sanguinius, smoke launchers (you'll have nothing to shoot turn 1), and if you're going the forge world route (since those rules just dropped, a dread mob backed up by a deredeo with an automatic pavise, OR A DREADNOUGHT DROP POD (combined with magna grapple so you only need a 7 to charge a vehicle, combined with lemartes so you can re-roll your charges) and the death company dread has lots of ways to get into crush range. Not to mention using it as a counter-charge unit since melee units in this edition are FAST.
Walnuts wrote: Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...
Lemartes was dropped out of buff range when he couldn't join the assault. He only gave the reroll for the charge. If I remember correctly it was like: 3 hits from thunder hammer hitting 4+ and wounding on 2+ resulting 1 wounding which was negated by 4+ invul. save. Two power swords made 6 attacks with 3+ to hit 4+ to wound and 4+ invul. save resulting 0 wounds. Then 16 regular attacks from the remaining 4 death company marines wielding a chainsword did 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 3+ armour save resulting 2 wounds. Then Kharn killed four guys and on the double attack killed the remaining three. I should have needed better dice rolls and Lemartes should have been in the charge range as well. Aligning the models for next rounds charge would have given the opponent the opportunity to move and charge the DC which I didn't want. I had two CP left and wanted to save the CP's for intervention on the fight phase if my opponent multi-charged my units. Could have used it for thunder hammer hits, but for the fore mentioned reason I canceled the CP, I took the reroll getting second hit, but canceled it before Kharn took inv. save. I really thought 6 power sword and 16 basic attacks would have done a lot more. 4+ inv. save with 1 reroll if I remember correctly made my charge advantage go away.
Lemartes can re-roll his own charge range as well since his buff works on him too. If he wasn't in charge range to begin with, you probably should have repositioned your DC to be ready for a charge the following turn because Characters are extremely powerful this edition. It's almost like the Herohammer of 2nd edition again.
Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.
apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.
Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.
apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.
The points from the starter are not official points, they are only usable in the starting force v starting force type scenarios.
Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.
apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.
The points from the starter are not official points, they are only usable in the starting force v starting force type scenarios.
Correct. Apparently all the starter points costs are different from the index, and the index overrides the starter set rules.
75 Points stands, and they are still bad. Even at 53 they are.....questionable.
So I had a game against Tau last night, didn't turn out so well.
My list:
Mephiston
Brother Corbulo
Chapin w/JP 10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV w/JPs 9x(Chainsword Stormshield) 1x(powersword stormshield)
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x plasmagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles
His list:
Coldstar Commander MT, ATS
Darkstrider
3x quad fusion (2x marker drones each)
2x triple burstcannon with ATS (2x marker drones each)
1x triple Mpod with DC (2x marker drones)(warlord)
12x Gundrones
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
10 Breachers with Devilfish
1x Riptide with HBC 2xfusion TL/ATS
We play Tactical Objectives with 6 objectives on hammer and anvil (This was very bad for me imo)
I went first (I think that was the right answer, because those stormravens and going to get blown up without a doubt.
Setup: Obejctives are mostly centerline on the table, from one end of the table to the other, With 3 being a little closer together on one end, so he took that deployment zone. 2 CMDRs on the table, 5 in reserve.
BA Turn1:
I fly up on my right flank, behind a building and some rock formations, so when my flyers get blown up I can disembark out of sight of most things. I DS meltas near the ripitde. I DS plasma and melta behind the coldstar, but realize the devilfish is closer, so I leave them there and focus down the devilfish (I think this was a mistake). I also dropped some VV with Shields to bubble wrap my stormravens some, but it doesn't really matter, and all that ends up happening is they get killed by burst cannons. I shoot and kill the devilfish. I end up assaulting and killing the breachers (mainly due to bad morale, I only killed 5 in closecombat with 10 VV. Should have been more like 8 but even there it's sad that that man points of closecombat guys can't even roll up breachers in one round. Riptide goes down to like 2 wounds despite 4 meltas 2x multimelta and 4x missiles into him (bad rolling). The gundrones that were surrounding the warlord get vaporized, although I over killed them and missed shooting the marker drones.
Tau Turn1:
Fusion suits drop, 2 in front of my storm ravens, one off to the left, near the rest of his army. Burst suit in my backfield(I don't really have a backfield with this list, but he was on the obj on my side of the table) Coldstar joins the Burstsuit.
Marklgihts up on first raven, down in 2 volleys of fusion, no marker on 2nd raven, down in one volley of fusion. I lose total of 4 guys from vehicle explosion. I lose VV with shields to burst cannons, I lose melta/plasma squad to concentrated fire from enemy striketeams/burst cannon/Mpod guys. I lost 4 from the other melta squad to the riptide even though he had 6's to hitIamazing rolls most of the game) I lost a couple stragglers from the disembarking squads. All in all I lost 26 of my 50 models that turn.
BA Turn2: Looking bad for your heroes. Mephiston run up and killed the riptide after failing to kill it with smite (cast 4++ on himself) and plasma pistol. Corbulo follows him. VV with shields (the other half) land to help with the commanders that kill the stormraven. I fail charge with them, the last models from the melta squad dies, but I do kill the riptide and charge some other commanders, just bouncing off their T5 3+, watching them fallback and just shoot me to death.
TLDR: I did manage to get some 11pts from objectives(even though I totally misplayed one and he was nice about letting me play it out how I misunderstood it. It was the 66 roll) He still beat me on points getting 12 or 13 at the end, although it didn't matter because he tabled me on bottom of 5.
Summmary of what I thought I did wrong, what was good/bad.
-Mephiston = beatstick, everyone saw this, he actually killed 3 commanders and the hurt riptide that game, each one in 1 round of combat.
-Brother Corbulo, unsure, he wasn't really in a place to help my guys mush and the were dropping like flies, so if just wasn't doing all that mush.
-Chaplin, love him, cheap, and rerolls all the time.
-Company vet special weapon squads, these are the MVPs imo, I'll probably take these more often.
-VV 2x chainsword, well fi you don't like tactical squad, these are basically combat tacticals, which was really ineffective. watching close combat attacks bounce off 4+ saves was very disheartening, especially when they move out of combat next turn and just shoot me, thanks darkstrider.
-VV w/ Stormshields: They did save meph's life on turn and survived, no sure how I feel, I think they needed power swords.
-Stormravens, love the idea of them, 2 games of trying them now, they get focused down pretty easy.
I think I needed to hold my melta/plasma squads in reserve for another turn, because I know he had to drop fusion guys to kill stormravens, so I could drop afterward and just kill them. I think 2 stormravens was too much. I also feel I need a lot more power swords/ lightning claws in my army.
VV with chainswords are meant for mulching hordes. Tau would be on the tougher side of what they should be fighting.
3+ to hit, and 3+ to wound, 4+ save, 4 attacks each right? With 10 VV charging you should be seeing 8-9 dead before morale checks and another 3-4 afterwards, that's a full squad assuming you all make it in. I mean, what more do you expect?
I find you have to be REALLY careful with assault troops, as wherever they end up after melee is where you will be shot at next turn. Melee provides almost no cover, especially against Tau. So all the damage you can really expect out of a melee unit is what they do on the charge.
I'm not 100% up to date on Tau rules, but the best trick I've found is trying to drag as many units as possible into the combat, more than you could possibly kill in 2-3 turns, the more the better really. This means they either have to disengage and not shoot, or cross their fingers and try to fight it out. Again, not really sure how this works with Tau's support fire rules though.
Carnage43 wrote: VV with chainswords are meant for mulching hordes. Tau would be on the tougher side of what they should be fighting.
3+ to hit, and 3+ to wound, 4+ save, 4 attacks each right? With 10 VV charging you should be seeing 8-9 dead before morale checks and another 3-4 afterwards, that's a full squad assuming you all make it in. I mean, what more do you expect?
I find you have to be REALLY careful with assault troops, as wherever they end up after melee is where you will be shot at next turn. Melee provides almost no cover, especially against Tau. So all the damage you can really expect out of a melee unit is what they do on the charge.
I'm not 100% up to date on Tau rules, but the best trick I've found is trying to drag as many units as possible into the combat, more than you could possibly kill in 2-3 turns, the more the better really. This means they either have to disengage and not shoot, or cross their fingers and try to fight it out. Again, not really sure how this works with Tau's support fire rules though.
Between Darkstrider buffing his standard infantry and all the crisis suits, nothing could be locked down in combat, unless I managed to surround the infantry, which I don't really have enough models for that.
@Coyote81 - The problem is you've got a bunch of expensive T4/W1/3+(+) that will drop like flies when shot at, ++ or no ++
Because of the durability problem I don't think BA jumpers work without Rhinos/Razors. They block fire lanes, tie up shooting units in combat, absorb overwatch etc etc
I'd dump all those Stormraven points into Razorbacks (personal pref Twin HF) and see how that works out
Walnuts wrote: Whoah, I'm shocked that many death company couldn't take down kharn. Lemartes was giving them re-rolls too, and they ALL strike first courtesy basic 8th ed rules? I would have thought the thunder hammer guy would have been enough himself...
Lemartes was dropped out of buff range when he couldn't join the assault. He only gave the reroll for the charge. If I remember correctly it was like: 3 hits from thunder hammer hitting 4+ and wounding on 2+ resulting 1 wounding which was negated by 4+ invul. save. Two power swords made 6 attacks with 3+ to hit 4+ to wound and 4+ invul. save resulting 0 wounds. Then 16 regular attacks from the remaining 4 death company marines wielding a chainsword did 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound and 3+ armour save resulting 2 wounds. Then Kharn killed four guys and on the double attack killed the remaining three. I should have needed better dice rolls and Lemartes should have been in the charge range as well. Aligning the models for next rounds charge would have given the opponent the opportunity to move and charge the DC which I didn't want. I had two CP left and wanted to save the CP's for intervention on the fight phase if my opponent multi-charged my units. Could have used it for thunder hammer hits, but for the fore mentioned reason I canceled the CP, I took the reroll getting second hit, but canceled it before Kharn took inv. save. I really thought 6 power sword and 16 basic attacks would have done a lot more. 4+ inv. save with 1 reroll if I remember correctly made my charge advantage go away.
By the way, this isn't 7e. Your dudes are not forced into making the charge in any certain manner other than reaching melee range and staying coherent for the charge. This means you can have a dude or two lag behind to stay in a buff bubble or on an objective. They aren't even forced to pile in.
Bartali wrote: @Coyote81 - The problem is you've got a bunch of expensive T4/W1/3+(+) that will drop like flies when shot at, ++ or no ++
Because of the durability problem I don't think BA jumpers work without Rhinos/Razors. They block fire lanes, tie up shooting units in combat, absorb overwatch etc etc
I'd dump all those Stormraven points into Razorbacks (personal pref Twin HF) and see how that works out
Yea I was just attempting to see if jumpers/stormravens could be remotely effective. I just feel they are too expensive and melee is only doable under 2 circumstances.
-You have hordes and hordes of bodies to trap people in.
-You deal substantial damage in the first round, hopefully just out and out killing them, which means you most likely need either really hard hitting things dealing multiple wounds for tough targets, and a crap ton of attacks for soft targets. I had the latter, but I was facing the former, so it did not work for me.
Just got round to getting to grips with the new edition. I sadly didn't get chance to test any BA specific units at 500 pts but I do like what I saw from the game. Played Harlequins with a really sub-optimal list of Captain in Terminator Armour and TH/SS, 5x TH/SS Termies and 5 Scouts but we agreed not to bother about objectives and stuff and just go in trying to kill as much as possible while we're still learning..
Terminators were surprisingly durable and a pleasant surprise. I think I'm going to keep a squad of them around for heavy duties. Can't say the same for the Captain, think I'm going to fit a Jump Pack on him when I buy the Assault Marine set.
Are Blood Angels meant to be getting their own unique rules soon? I heard something that they don't have all of their special rules just yet, or is someone deceiving me?
EDIT: I ended up being tabled which I didn't really mind, this was just a list of what I had left of my models that required very little if no proxying (which made things easier to remember).
So I'm pondering a BA Termies and Scouts list. General idea s scouts on the field hiding in cover sniping, while termies (both tactical and assault) deep strike where needed.
(The main reason I like this idea is lorewise... the scouts run in to an enemy force too big for them, so they place teleport beacons down and request help. And who else would come to ensure their survival but First Company, veterans come to ensure the new blood survives to become full marines?)
Think this idea can be made to work in 8th? I know at least it fits some of the FoCs.
Sword is pretty solid, especially for BA, with +1 str. However, the axe has a nifty niche for BA as well, since we can get it up to Str 6 for doubling out T3. Sadly, the maul is not looking super great.
Martel732 wrote: Sword is pretty solid, especially for BA, with +1 str. However, the axe has a nifty niche for BA as well, since we can get it up to Str 6 for doubling out T3. Sadly, the maul is not looking super great.
Is the Maul not worthwhile for S7 against Razorbacks etc (so wound on a 4+) or is it better to just dedicate stuff for that like PF?
I think you are coming out behind the sword. Wound on a 5+ and only give them a 6+ save vs wounding on a 4+ and allowing a 4+ save. For BA, the maul might be better vs T6, though. The differences don't seem huge, though.
S5 is a sweet spot in the wounding chart, being able to wound a ton of dudes (read: most of the game) on 3's, and wound almost anything on a 5. Extremely few things have t10 or higher.
That in mind: most combat marines would prefer an axe, but with our priests around, we can take swords instead and benefit from the extra AP. S6 isn't near as important of a benchmark, as you still wound t7 vehicles on 5's, just with worse AP, and you probably don't need even more help beating most t3 infantry, and if they have a 4+ armor or better like firewarriors, it's a wash between the two. Nod to harlequins as being one of the few times you would both want an axe for s6 near a priest AND who are a credible threat in melee despite being t3, but how often do you face harlies?
I could probably drop the Storm Bolter for Power Axes on two Company Veterans for Harlequins but unsure. Any changes you would make? Flamer stuff probably isn't the best use of tacticals (despite not being great to begin with). Maybe Plasma and Combi-Plasma for tough to crack foes? Feels like Sanguinary Priest is a little overpriced but 5 Attacks that hit on 2s and wound on 3+ against T4 with a re-roll and -2 AP sounds good. Maybe change the Claws for Plasma Pistol and Power Sword to make the two points for Power Axes?
Since the sanguinary priest hits on a 2+ I would equip him with either a TH or PF, the first one being my favorite choice as it always deals the 3 damage compared to the d3 of the latter. I dont really care about the bolt pistol.
Flamer stuff is actually good on tacticals. I normally use them as objective holder and not in assault which means that they can overwatch very good with d6 shots at strength 5 and d6 shots atstrength 4 from the sergent.
Also I would suggest you to remove the stormbolter from the razorback.
Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?
soomemafia wrote: Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?
I don't see any reason to use normal assault marines over vanguard now. 20 points for 10 attacks is a steal.
I ran 10 Vanguard with jump packs, no toys, as an anti-horde unit in my marines to clear out massed weaker units. They managed to bury the last 10 guys in a Bloodletter squad on the charge, so I was happy.
My anti-horde leaning list squeaked past an Ork list that WAS not proper horde.
Captain on bike, powerfist, infernus pistol (I know about T hammer, but he's modeled with fist right now)
Priest on bike, infernus pistol (he needed a CC weapon)
Lemartes
5 x incessors (literally did nothing)
5 x tac combi-flamer, heavy flamer, TLHF razorback
5 x tac combi-plas, plasma gun, TL plasma lascannon razorback (I'm changing this to combi-melta, grav cannon I think)
10 X DC, 2 X power fist (need to be hammers) 2 X power sword
3 X inceptors (they actually did really well)
3 X attack bikes w/ MM
Primaris lieutenant
Castellan whirlwind
Castellan whirlwind
Vengeance whirlwind
VS
Gorkanaut (horrifying)
Battlewagon w/all guns and deffrolla
Big Mek, War boss, 3 X mega nobz, standard dude all in battlewagon
4 X grot tanks
6 X bikerz
3 large squads of grots
3 X Lobbaz
Dakkajet
I won on points, but I could not stop the Gorkanaut at all and only killed the empty battlewagon very late.
Whirlwinds were very good. Incessors were bad this game, because they could only shoot the battlewagon and Gorkanaut from their location. Twin heavy flamer very good. Plasma not so impressive. Inceptors were fantastic deepstriking into cover.
I have been running two MSU units of 5 ASM with 2x Flamer and a Melta Bomb and I've been enjoying them. They are decent as a skirmish unit, especially in Maelstrom - they provide lots of mobility, can cap objectives and are moderately resilient. Plus 'Fly' gives you all sorts of possibilities. Charging and enforcing fall back on shooty units or falling back themselves and flaming stuff. Nothing spectacular but in a fluffy JPBA list I think they have a place.
Sanguinary Guard, however, have been nothing but a disappointment to me so far. They seem to have a very focused purpose and that is killing multi-wound infantry with low to med Toughness. They struggle against anything more resilient (like vehicles) or with high invuln. saves. Their special rule also means it's suboptimal to run them as an independent unit since you want to keep them close to your Warlord. IMHO their role overlaps a bit with the Death Company and after a couple of games, I am starting to think that DC is better for the job and THSS Termies would be better as a heavy hitting, independent squad.
Oh and also, what does everyone think about running two Librarians? I have been thinking about running BA Libby with Sang. discipline and a JP Libby in an "Astartes" detachment with the Librarius discipline. All three powers there seem very tasty for a CC oriented list.
soomemafia wrote: Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?
Struggling to see the point of Assault squads right now. Once they had an advantage in that the FA slot was relatively uncontested but now that Vanguard detachment exists that is a moot point.
Playing BA without a Vanguard detachment is simply nerfing yourself...
Why pay troop tax?
2 Vanguards give 2 CP 4 HQ 12 Elites (You know VV, DC, Dreads, San Guard, etc.)
and enough of whatever else you want to take to round out your list/points.
Because troop tax gives you command points and scouts can sneak up the field freeing your elites to deep strike. Alternatively for non pureist scion's can give some nice shooty support for the DC
Death Company [18 PL, 161pts]
. Death Company Marine [37pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Thunder hammer [20pts]
. Death Company Marine [22pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Power axe [5pts]
. Death Company Marine [17pts]:x5
Death Company [18 PL, 160pts]
. Death Company Marine [37pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Thunder hammer [20pts]
. Death Company Marine [21pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Power sword [4pts]
. Death Company Marine x5
Death Company [9 PL, 85pts]
. Death Company Marine [17pts]:x5
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 227pts]: Blood talons [65pts], Heavy flamer [17pts], Meltagun [17pts], Smoke launchers
4x squads of Purgation
2x Stormraven MM, HB, AC, SS
5x LC Razorbacks
I got first turn - advanced with Death Company and Dreds attached to Stormravens. Moved up Razorback - Shooting phase I took out one of his Stormravens, end of turn.
1st Turn Grey Knights - he has a parking lot of razorbacks with Draigo in the middle - everything is twin linked. He moves the ramaining Stormraven towards one of mine. He drops in 2x Purgation squads 9" away to take out my scouts and devastators.
Psychic phase - Draigo casts Purge Soul on my SR then Razorbacks, SR (x6 psykers) casts Rites of Banishment on my Lemartes occupied Stormraven and its down to 5 wounds. Also lost 1x Scout and 1x Devastator down to the deep strike Purgation squads casting Rites of Banishment. In Total, a single Psychic phase caused 11 mortal wounds!
Shooting phase - the LC razorbacks easily finish off the Stormraven with Lemartes and the Death Company Dread +Deathcompany falling to the ground. No explosion, everyone lives on disembark!
Second SR with the Furioso and Corbs quickly whittled down to 5 wounds after Grey knights remaining twin linked LC Razorbacks and their remaining SR lay into it.
1x Purgation Squad kills all but two Devastators, other Purgation squad kills 2 scouts in cover with cloaks.
Assault - 1 LC Razorback charges Lemartes and the 8 Death Company Marines - takes one wound to overwatch!
Draigo leaps over a LC Razorback and attacks the Death Company Dreadnought. Hits 4 times with his D3 Mortal wound AP-4 weapon - ONE SHOTS the DREAD! It EXPLODES killing all the death company except for 2 and Lemartes down to 1 wound.
Purgation squad that annhilated the devastators in cover charges the Razorback and make the charge,
Lemartes and the two remaining death company do 2 wounds on the 8 wound LC Razorback.
The Purgation squad slices 5 wounds off the razorback.
The devastators fail morale and lose both models.
He doesn't bother to assault the 4 man scout squad (1 died to Purge Soul)
At this point I call mercy as I have just one SR left with 5 wounds and its loadout as well as 1 AC Razor with 5 minimal death company cowering inside.
Lessons learned?
Build a parking lot with Gabriel Seth or Dante of cheap Razorbacks for rerolling big hit. long ranged weapons on cheap ass platforms.
Grey Knights - all of their units will be mortally wounding yours with Rites of Banishment if you are 12" away from any of his units. The chance of perils doesn't scare 10 wound psyker Razorbacks!
It was the lesser smite ability Rites of Banishment, not Purge Soul for the rest of the casters.
This match up was really hard for me to offer competition as I had built a Death Company assault list and ran up against 5 twin linked LC Psyker Razorbacks that not only hit with the LC, but also mortally wounded as well. If I didn't drive up in his face for a second turn charge I'd still eat LC and SR fire. If I stayed back I would have avoided all that psyker damage though so I guess hanging back for a turn out of casting range would have been more prudent.
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Now I've been of the mind that these indexes are just a way to get our stuff on the table and shouldn't be taken too seriously but I'm not seeing too much to crow about so far other than the opportunity to just use stuff. It seems to be that we're red marines with slightly different characters as far as I can tell.
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
What do you mean by saying "Our" VV squad? These are not anything different than the Space marine VV from my index.
I shelved my red marines because my Razorback spam was utter garbage since 6th edition - now they can be fielded again but like Vanguard Veterans - they are just Space marine Razorbacks so there isn't much flavor.
I think a gem I haven't seen anyone mention yet is using Gabriel Seth as his aura buff 6" rerolls are only 135pts vs Dante's same buff at 215.
So thinking more about the 1st and 10th list I made a while back and mentioned a few days ago... still really haven't bothered looking up points yet but for equipment, here's what I've been planning based off of what I got out of a recent trade:
-- Termies, to teleport forward and deal damage, contest objectives, the like. 5x Assault Terminators, 2 claws, 2 thss, sarge w/thss 5x Assault Terminators, 2 claws, 2 thss, sarge w/thss 5x Tactical Terminators, 2 powerfists, 2 chainfists (one has cyclone or asscan, thinking asscan really due to points), sarge w/powersword
-- Scouts, mostly to sit back and snipe, though the boltguns one will potentially sit on an objective. 5 scouts w/cloaks, sniper rifles 5 scouts w/cloaks, 4 sniper rifles, ML 5 scouts w/or w/o cloaks, 4 boltguns, BP/CCW * (I want these to be sniper rifles, but I don't have enough SRs at the moment; thinking I might delay assembling this third squad to get more, but boltgun ones still aren't entirely useless at least )
-- Captain and Ancient intended to support the termies. The ancient is especially powerful with the assault termies, and the captain more useful with the tacticals. Terminator Captain w/SB and SS or SS and combiweapon Terminator Ancient w/Claw
It's probably not overly strong, but I'm liking the feel of it at any rate. Sadly there's nothing BA-unique in here other than the terminator ancient, but that's just because of the index being kinda generic for almost all space marines.
kryczek wrote: So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.
I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.
kryczek wrote: So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.
I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.
I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.
kryczek wrote: So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.
I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.
I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.
The cost actually lines up fairly well against other CC dreads (though the helbrute has more attacks), Personally I'm not sold on dreads as a heavy weapon platform- they're just ridiculously expensive for that role, particularly with single shot weapons like multi-meltas.
kryczek wrote: So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.
I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.
I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.
The cost actually lines up fairly well against other CC dreads (though the helbrute has more attacks), Personally I'm not sold on dreads as a heavy weapon platform- they're just ridiculously expensive for that role, particularly with single shot weapons like multi-meltas.
Do you realize a Furioso with 2x fists heavy flamer, meltagun 195pts. Where as a Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon, heavy flamer, single DCCW is 177. 20pts less and I put a Twinlascannon on it. The dreadnought has 2 level movement and does not reroll to hit in combat, but he has the exact same close combat profile otherwise, despite having one arm wit a twin lascannon, which anyone will take over a meltagun any day of the week.
IMO opinion their is no challenge here, I'll pay 20 less points for having a lascannon and giving up 2 movement and rerolls to hit (which I get very often anyways from all the various support characters.
Furioso dreadnoughts need to have venerable upgrades for the points they pay (a venerable dradnought is 20 points more then a standard dread, and they get 2+ WS/BS and 6 FNP.
kryczek wrote: So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?
Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?
We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.
I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.
I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.
My experience has been different. And I know my opponents don't treat him as an easy kill point. He's seen as a threat.
I'm not one to sacrifice flavor for efficiency. If I was, I'd play a different game. That;s why I use DC, Baal, & Furiosos. Those are Blood Angels to me. Vanguard, Predator Destructor, and Lascannon Dreads aren't.
For the list above, I'm pondering if I should make my scout squads larger for survivability purposes, or spread them out over multiple small units as I currently am. Hrm.
I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.
I've got three painted up, and two more are going to be started soon, both with Storm Shields. I'm likely going to plug in at least one Meltagun to the squad, possibly two, and if I go with one I'll put a power weapon on the 5th one and let them be semi-tanky 3+/3++ character protection and delivery system.
Vanguard Veterans are also excellent as well in my opinion, I just like the Company Veterans for the added wound intercept ability. It costs you a mortal wound, sadly, and they're only 1 wound a piece, but if you have a Priest or Novitiate nearby you can try to bring one or more back over each turn.
My assault elements are going to be my Death Company + Lemartes (Likely 10 man w/ jump packs), a melee focused Captain with a 4 man squad of Sanguinary Guard and a Sanguinary Guard Ancient (with a powerfist), and a 5 man Command Squad with a Librarian, Company Champion, and Sanguinary Novitiate. All with Jump Packs.
The Librarian will throw Shield of Sanguinius on either the Death Company or Sanguinary Guard, and Unleash Rage on whichever one will benefit more from +1 attack in a given round.
I may not be able to deal with Horde armies supremely well with melee, but I imagine I'll be able to focus down one element of the enemy fairly well with a massed assault.
Good info in the thread here. Hoping for more good info soon.
Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.
Can't you use a heavy flamer, flamer, and combiflamer? The Heavy Flamer is listed under "Heavy Weapon" after all. Basically turns your tacs in to harder to kill battle sister squads for horde clearing. Don't forget the help of the rest of the squad's boltguns too, btw. They're still good against one-wound models.
Melissia wrote: Can't you use a heavy flamer, flamer, and combiflamer? The Heavy Flamer is listed under "Heavy Weapon" after all. Basically turns your tacs in to harder to kill battle sister squads for horde clearing. Don't forget the help of the rest of the squad's boltguns too, btw. They're still good against one-wound models.
Agreed completely, and yes you can have all three in a 10 man tactical squad. If you're running a demi-squad (5x models) or anything fewer than 10 models then you choose either a heavy or special weapon and the sergeant of course gets the combi-flamer. I would always opt to take the heavy flamer first as it does get -1 to hit for being heavy but hits automatically, and gets the nice +1 strength vs. a flamer, in addition to the -1 AP to hit. The only thing you don't get is the ability to fire a Heavy Flamer if you advance, like you can with a standard assault weapon flamer, since the heavy flamer isn't an assault weapon any longer. I run my tacticals in a vehicle though, so I can give up the extra shooting on the advancement move for the added weapon strength and -1 to enemy armor.
I only lament that flamer weapons no longer ignore cover like they use to, but I do understand the logic behind things with the new AP system and cover.
I fully intend on my current project tactical squad to probably be triple flame weapons in the squad and maybe even splurging for meltabombs on the sergeant....apparently you can no longer put meltabombs on either the tactical or scout squad sergeants. Well, at least Krak grenades are somewhat useful. C'est la vie.
Yeh. Honestly if you have the spare points, there's no reason not to give your tac sarges combiflamers. IT basically lets the squad have another flamer, that also has a boltgun attached that hits at -1BS.
If you are going to take a dreadnaught I can't see any reason not to take the librarian dreadnaught. It is pretty solid and since it hits on 2+, has AP -4, and always does 3 damage it seems the best all around damage dealer. Not to mention you get the wonderful psychic abilities that can buff yourself or nearby units. It can also can deny the witch.
The other really cool thing I realized is that since it is a character and has less than 10 wounds it also can't be targeted by shooting meaning you are much more likely to get it into combat alive.
Overall, this is the only dreadnaught variant i would run. The Furioso and DC are complete wastes of points. It is really frustrating how much extra you pay for them over dreadnaught. It almost so overpriced I feel it was a mistake or oversight.
Red__Thirst wrote: I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.
Agreed, they are really nice. I like them with a couple of Storm shields to protect a character with an invulnerable save. If someone attacks the squad, the Storm Shields will help to protect them. If someone attacks the character, they are protected by their invulnerable save, if they fail that, they can pass the wound off to a cheap mook who just has BP/CS.
Nice with Mephiston as well as long as they can keep up with him.
I've had great success with DC loaded with chainsword and Boltgun. Can't see why anyone would choose boltpistol seeing that they are only viable in your next shooting phase as an extra punch in CC.
Rapid firing boltgun are nothing to scoff at following with a massive charge (good rolling could result in unfavorable charge distance).
With jump packs you can also leave close combat for a tactical objective and still rapid fire the heck out of the unit who should be severely weakened after previous bouts of close combat.
Red__Thirst wrote: I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.
Agreed, they are really nice. I like them with a couple of Storm shields to protect a character with an invulnerable save. If someone attacks the squad, the Storm Shields will help to protect them. If someone attacks the character, they are protected by their invulnerable save, if they fail that, they can pass the wound off to a cheap mook who just has BP/CS.
Nice with Mephiston as well as long as they can keep up with him.
I am still not sure how mixed armor saves and units work. If you have 2 guys with stormshields can you only save 2 dice rolls with a 3+ and the rest must take normal saves? Or something diffrent?
Red__Thirst wrote: I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.
Agreed, they are really nice. I like them with a couple of Storm shields to protect a character with an invulnerable save. If someone attacks the squad, the Storm Shields will help to protect them. If someone attacks the character, they are protected by their invulnerable save, if they fail that, they can pass the wound off to a cheap mook who just has BP/CS.
Nice with Mephiston as well as long as they can keep up with him.
I am still not sure how mixed armor saves and units work. If you have 2 guys with stormshields can you only save 2 dice rolls with a 3+ and the rest must take normal saves? Or something diffrent?
It works just like 7th with the exception that you pick instead of just taking it on the closest. So if you get hit by 50 meltaguns, the stormshields can tank them until they die, then the other guys have to save whatever is left, until your run out of wounds or dudes.
[cleaning this up! man that post was a mess with so many "added to last post" additions ]
Managed to nab a look at someone else's book to do some calculations. If I'm doing this right, this is what I currently have (or will have, once the trade goes through):
Goal: 1250 Pts HQ: ??? Pts, PL8 Captain in Terminator Armor -- Model has a thunder hammer, and unfortunately part of the cape is tied to it, so I'm probably gonna stick with the TH for ease of construction. But other than that IDK, I'll have to see what I can do model-wise.
I'm still figuring out how to fill the rest of the 1250 points goal. General goal though is captain stays with the tactical termies taking an objective while providing fire support for the assault termies, while ancient goes with the assault termies to wreck gak. Scouts hang back and snipe things while bolter scouts hide on an objective on my end of the board taking potshots.
The BA Terminator Ancient is freaking brutal support for assault termies. Re-roll all failed fight rolls! Damn.
Melissa, my recommendation for your other HQ choices would be a Sanguinary High Priest with a jump pack to hop around and share the +1 Strength buff to as many models as he can reasonably reach, and to also get within 3" of a squad to try and restore wounds or models to your terminator squads. I would also consider a Librarian or a Librarian Dreadnought for you other one.
I prefer the Librarian Dread as they are tough, characters, and their two Blood Angels specific buffing powers are both very good and useful. You can give your Librarian Dread a 4+ invulnerable save and you can buff another nearby unit with a bonus attack.
The only other thing you need, it seems, is some added ranged anti tank. A storm raven might be fun for this, or you could go with a predator or the like.
Yeah been thinking of the sanguinary priest. Predators will come for higher points levels definitely-- I rather like the models.
At the moment, what I have listed up there is literally every BA model I have. I might be able to grab some scouts or a single character, but my funds are limited. Got these in a trade.
That would be a tough list for sure. Little lacking in ranged attack, but makes up for it being dangerous as hell in melee. I would try to get a Sanguinary High Priest in the immediate, ebay or what have you is your friend. The single blister mini is around 20 or 25 dollars if my memory serves. Though Psyker defense might be the better option first, and getting the single blister Librarian in Power Armor, or the Blood Angels Librarian in Terminator Armor (my recommendation) won't set you back too far cost wise.
Best of luck and I hope your angels perform well once you get them on the tabletop!
The theme of the list is termies and scouts-- naming it "1st and 10th"-- with the idea being that the scouts run in to a force they can't handle and call for reinforcements, so the 1st teleport down using the scouts' beacons. Also the contrast between scouts and termies is pretty strong, making it visually interesting.
So to fit that theme, I definitely would pick terminator armor for characters if given the choice.
That said, Baal predators are reaaaaaally tempting... they look awesome, and 12 S6 AP-1 shots is pretty brutal against pretty much any target.
Yea, Baal Predators are pretty excellent, and I am actually tempted to put the sponson heavy flamers on them now, where before I would ALWAYS eschew them for Heavy Bolters. Now Heavy Bolters are a solid choice, but if you get close you can put a massive hurt on an enemy unit with the paired Heavy Flamers and twin Assault Cannon.
I'm considering picking one up in the near future. We shall see.
I hope the new Primaris Reivers are worth taking when they come out. If they don't suck, a unit of them could very well make a good addition to the scout portion of my 1st and 10th list.
The other Primaris units are very much overcosted for what they do though... Inceptors looked like a potential addition to my list, but at over 200 points on an assault unit that doesn't have any close combat equipment or abilities after the charge, I'm not convinced that they'd be worth it even with the blood angels terminator ancient buff.
The regular predator can't carry twin assault cannons, however, and the razorback, while cheaper, is slower-- which is important for use of the twin assault cannons and their short range and allows for greater flexibility.
I mean, I don't disagree; the overcharged engines and wound are a bit overpriced if you compare it exclusively to the razorback... but the result is still better than the alternatives IMO. The regular predator is actually more expensive than the Baal one anyway by six points once you add in gear (and IMO the predator autocannon is inferior to the twin assault cannons for most situations), so you're paying to give up a lot of shots and mobility for additional strength in the cannon.
Red__Thirst wrote: Melissa, my recommendation for your other HQ choices would be a Sanguinary High Priest with a jump pack to hop around and share the +1 Strength buff to as many models as he can reasonably reach, and to also get within 3" of a squad to try and restore wounds or models to your terminator squads. I would also consider a Librarian or a Librarian Dreadnought for you other one.
I prefer the Librarian Dread as they are tough, characters, and their two Blood Angels specific buffing powers are both very good and useful. You can give your Librarian Dread a 4+ invulnerable save and you can buff another nearby unit with a bonus attack.
The only other thing you need, it seems, is some added ranged anti tank. A storm raven might be fun for this, or you could go with a predator or the like.
Best of luck, and take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Since that librarian dreadnaught is a "Character" with less than 10 wounds it can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Give that 4+ invul save to a unit in front of it.
Red__Thirst wrote: Melissa, my recommendation for your other HQ choices would be a Sanguinary High Priest with a jump pack to hop around and share the +1 Strength buff to as many models as he can reasonably reach, and to also get within 3" of a squad to try and restore wounds or models to your terminator squads. I would also consider a Librarian or a Librarian Dreadnought for you other one.
I prefer the Librarian Dread as they are tough, characters, and their two Blood Angels specific buffing powers are both very good and useful. You can give your Librarian Dread a 4+ invulnerable save and you can buff another nearby unit with a bonus attack.
The only other thing you need, it seems, is some added ranged anti tank. A storm raven might be fun for this, or you could go with a predator or the like.
Best of luck, and take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Since that librarian dreadnaught is a "Character" with less than 10 wounds it can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Give that 4+ invul save to a unit in front of it.
Unless your dread is in melee combat, which is generally when I would advise doing it, or when charging something particularly dangerous and wanting some extra protection from a lucky overwatch shot. My point is you can spread the wealth sure, but there are times you're going to want to give that invulnerable save to yourself an that in those instances, you can.
casvalremdeikun wrote: We still can't take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers, or a Combi-Bolter on the Sergeant, but this is a step in the right direction.
Wait wut? The sidebar on p.89 specifically places inferno pistols and hand flamers on both our sergeant and pistols lists.
Also we could never take a combi-bolter on the sarge.
casvalremdeikun wrote: We still can't take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers, or a Combi-Bolter on the Sergeant, but this is a step in the right direction.
Wait wut? The sidebar on p.89 specifically places inferno pistols and hand flamers on both our sergeant and pistols lists.
Also we could never take a combi-bolter on the sarge.
Yes, but the Special Weapon Marines still can't take the Inferno Pistol or Hand Flamer like they could in 5e, 6e, and 7e. And yes, the Sergeant could take weapons from the Ranged Weapon list in 7e, which included Combi-Bolters.
casvalremdeikun wrote: We still can't take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers, or a Combi-Bolter on the Sergeant, but this is a step in the right direction.
Wait wut? The sidebar on p.89 specifically places inferno pistols and hand flamers on both our sergeant and pistols lists.
Also we could never take a combi-bolter on the sarge.
Yes, but the Special Weapon Marines still can't take the Inferno Pistol or Hand Flamer like they could in 5e, 6e, and 7e. And yes, the Sergeant could take weapons from the Ranged Weapon list in 7e, which included Combi-Bolters.
Which special weapon marines? The tac squad marine that decides to take a special? He only had access to special weapon lists and not pistols. If you were taking special pistols on a random tac squad guy that wasn't the sergeant, you misread the codex.
And Combi-bolters have not been on our ranged weapon list or anywhere in our armory altogether for...ever? Maybe they'll give us cataphractii termies at some point so we'd at least have them somewhere, but...
casvalremdeikun wrote: We still can't take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers, or a Combi-Bolter on the Sergeant, but this is a step in the right direction.
Wait wut? The sidebar on p.89 specifically places inferno pistols and hand flamers on both our sergeant and pistols lists.
Also we could never take a combi-bolter on the sarge.
Yes, but the Special Weapon Marines still can't take the Inferno Pistol or Hand Flamer like they could in 5e, 6e, and 7e. And yes, the Sergeant could take weapons from the Ranged Weapon list in 7e, which included Combi-Bolters.
Which special weapon marines? The tac squad marine that decides to take a special? He only had access to special weapon lists and not pistols. If you were taking special pistols on a random tac squad guy that wasn't the sergeant, you misread the codex.
And Combi-bolters have not been on our ranged weapon list or anywhere in our armory altogether for...ever? Maybe they'll give us cataphractii termies at some point so we'd at least have them somewhere, but...
I refer to the two Marines in Assault Squads that can swap their weapons out as Special Weapons Marines. In the 5e and 7e Codex, they could take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers in addition to the Plasma Pistols, Flamers, Meltaguns, and Plasmaguns. And Combi-Weapons were in the Ranged Weapon List in 7e included Combi-Weapons, so yes, Assault Marine Sergeants could take Combi-Weapons. I am not talking Combi-Bolters(which are functionally identical to Storm Bolters anyway), I am talking Combi-Flamer/Plasma/Melta.
casvalremdeikun wrote: We still can't take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers, or a Combi-Bolter on the Sergeant, but this is a step in the right direction.
Wait wut? The sidebar on p.89 specifically places inferno pistols and hand flamers on both our sergeant and pistols lists.
Also we could never take a combi-bolter on the sarge.
Yes, but the Special Weapon Marines still can't take the Inferno Pistol or Hand Flamer like they could in 5e, 6e, and 7e. And yes, the Sergeant could take weapons from the Ranged Weapon list in 7e, which included Combi-Bolters.
Which special weapon marines? The tac squad marine that decides to take a special? He only had access to special weapon lists and not pistols. If you were taking special pistols on a random tac squad guy that wasn't the sergeant, you misread the codex.
And Combi-bolters have not been on our ranged weapon list or anywhere in our armory altogether for...ever? Maybe they'll give us cataphractii termies at some point so we'd at least have them somewhere, but...
I refer to the two Marines in Assault Squads that can swap their weapons out as Special Weapons Marines. In the 5e and 7e Codex, they could take Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers in addition to the Plasma Pistols, Flamers, Meltaguns, and Plasmaguns. And Combi-Weapons were in the Ranged Weapon List in 7e included Combi-Weapons, so yes, Assault Marine Sergeants could take Combi-Weapons. I am not talking Combi-Bolters(which are functionally identical to Storm Bolters anyway), I am talking Combi-Flamer/Plasma/Melta.
I would have to check on the special pistols in assault squad. I don't remember that being a thing, but then again I tend not to waste much time thinking about bad options.
However on the sergeant, I am well aware they could always take combi-specials, and they absolutely still can. Read yer book.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Assault Squad Sergeants can only take items from the Melee and Pistols list. Is a Combi-Weapon on either of those lists?
And I have my 5E codex open right now, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers were options for the Flamer Marine.
Sergeants get access to the sergeants list, which has all the Combi specials on it plus storm bolter. Edit: holy crap they can't?!
And yes, like I said, I didn't consider the special pistols worth taking on regular ASM in those editions, so I didn't bother to remember that they even could.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, I wanted to call BS on that, but it is indeed true. Inexplicably, asm sergeants can't take sergeant gear.
This seems like an error.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Assault Squad Sergeants can only take items from the Melee and Pistols list. Is a Combi-Weapon on either of those lists?
And I have my 5E codex open right now, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers were options for the Flamer Marine.
Sergeants get access to the sergeants list, which has all the Combi specials on it plus storm bolter.
And yes, like I said, I didn't consider the special pistols worth taking on regular ASM in those editions, so I didn't bother to remember that they even could.
Read your book. Each unit datasheet lists what items can be taken by a unit. Assault Marine Sergeants do no list Sergeant Equipment as an option. Every other unit that can take Sergeant Equipment lists Sergeant Equipment as an option.
Edit: Now you see! I agree, it is an error and it is an easy fix too. Just change the entry to Sergeant Equipment for Blood Angels instead of Pistols and Melee Weapons.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Assault Squad Sergeants can only take items from the Melee and Pistols list. Is a Combi-Weapon on either of those lists?
And I have my 5E codex open right now, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers were options for the Flamer Marine.
Sergeants get access to the sergeants list, which has all the Combi specials on it plus storm bolter.
And yes, like I said, I didn't consider the special pistols worth taking on regular ASM in those editions, so I didn't bother to remember that they even could.
Read your book. Each unit datasheet lists what items can be taken by a unit. Assault Marine Sergeants do no list Sergeant Equipment as an option. Every other unit that can take Sergeant Equipment lists Sergeant Equipment as an option.
Already checked. You right on this one. I can't even begin to fathom why a sergeant would not have access to the sergeant list, especially when they said old models would be legal. Like I said, it seems like an error, but RAW you got this one.
Yes, I am aware of that. But Assault Marine Sergeants are not typical and Blood Angels are even less so (except they are less typical by being MORE typical).
Edit: Seriously, we keep editing our posts while the other person is replying.
I am thinking about 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol ASM squad. It is pretty cheap and packs a punch! Being able to fly away means they can always shoot.
The only other option is to give VV squad dual plasma pistols to have them as gunslingers.
Yes, BA assault squads are now quasi-special weapon squads, able to take more flamer, Plasma, and Melta shots than even a Tac squad (assuming 5 man squads), and might actually be worth taking now.
jcd386 wrote: Yes, BA assault squads are now quasi-special weapon squads, able to take more flamer, Plasma, and Melta shots than even a Tac squad (assuming 5 man squads), and might actually be worth taking now.
That's pretty nifty.
BA Assault Squads have ALWAYS been this way. It was actually a huge Nerf to have them the way they were at 8E launch (and many of us, myself included, lost the ability to use our Squads the way they are supposed to be).
I might be finding a way to run an Outrider Detachment and Vanguard Detachment instead of a Battalion now. Screw Tacticals, I want Assault Squads!
Since BA can legally take Stormravens, you can use the ravens to drop off your assault marines fairly close to the enemy, which is something I've been mulling over in my brain every now and then.
I read the index imperium 1 faq's but I still don't understand whether the assault marine sergeant can take that combimelta. FAQ's don't say anything about the equipment at page 42 so I guess by RAW he cannot?
I very much like the Company Veterans. Give them Jump Packs, Stormshields, and Combi Bolter/Plasmagun. The Plasmagun shoots 24", and its Rapid Fire1. You can deploy them more than 9" away from enemy Units, and shoot twice up to 12" with the Plasmagun. Thats 10 shots from a Unit of 5 with S7 AP-3 W1. Add a Captain with Jump Pack and you can go a bit suicidal, overcharging the Plasmaguns, rerolling 1s. 20 wounds at S8 AP-3 sound pretty good to me. Captain can also pick Stormshield and Combi Bolter/Plasmagun making it 12 shots, which can result in 24 wounds.
Hey guys, new around here, picking up the game again after a 15 year hiatus, last played 3rd edition.
So I'm building back an army, and got the Death Company Strike Force (15 DC units, chaplain, dreadnaught), an extra box for DC units (five more), the BA Start Collecting box (10 tactical units, terminator captain, Baal pred), Lamartes, a Stormhawk/Stormtalon model, and the Stormraven.
I've assembled 15 of the DC, 13 with bolt pistols and chain swords, one with a plasma pistol and power sword, one with a power fist and inferno pistol, and one with a thunder hammer (for some versatility). When I get the extra box of five, not sure how I'll build them.
I put the tactical squad together as two groups of 5, both sargents with chain swords and flamer pistols, one heavy flamer unit and one regular flamer. From what I gather, tactical aren't very useful so I plan on getting two razorbacks to give them mobility..
I still haven't built the dreadnaught yet. Should I make it Death Company or go for the librarian? I was planning on putting the DC dread into the Stormraven with 5 DC and the chaplain, and having the other 15 DC drop in with Lamartes. But it sounds like DC dread isn't very good.
I was going to build the Stormtalon for support and to try and draw fire/cover my Stormraven and DC. I'm waiting to get some magnets before building this and the Baal pred.
Terminator captain that came with the start collecting box appears to be useless. Is that correct?
I'm looking into getting 2 vet squads, and maybe a squad of 5 scouts. Anything else I should get?
senor_flojo wrote: Hey guys, new around here, picking up the game again after a 15 year hiatus, last played 3rd edition.
So I'm building back an army, and got the Death Company Strike Force (15 DC units, chaplain, dreadnaught), an extra box for DC units (five more), the BA Start Collecting box (10 tactical units, terminator captain, Baal pred), Lamartes, a Stormhawk/Stormtalon model, and the Stormraven.
I've assembled 15 of the DC, 13 with bolt pistols and chain swords, one with a plasma pistol and power sword, one with a power fist and inferno pistol, and one with a thunder hammer (for some versatility). When I get the extra box of five, not sure how I'll build them.
I put the tactical squad together as two groups of 5, both sargents with chain swords and flamer pistols, one heavy flamer unit and one regular flamer. From what I gather, tactical aren't very useful so I plan on getting two razorbacks to give them mobility..
I still haven't built the dreadnaught yet. Should I make it Death Company or go for the librarian? I was planning on putting the DC dread into the Stormraven with 5 DC and the chaplain, and having the other 15 DC drop in with Lamartes. But it sounds like DC dread isn't very good.
I was going to build the Stormtalon for support and to try and draw fire/cover my Stormraven and DC. I'm waiting to get some magnets before building this and the Baal pred.
Terminator captain that came with the start collecting box appears to be useless. Is that correct?
I'm looking into getting 2 vet squads, and maybe a squad of 5 scouts. Anything else I should get?
First: On the DC, the ones you have coming in will probably want to take on several more power swords. Power weapons in this edition are very competitively priced, and so are a cheap upgrade that makes your dudes much more threatening in general. I myself need to get some more power sword DC now.
I'm not a fan of hand flamers. Little bit too weak for me. Really after a while you'll probably just have a big collection of the standard power armor guys painted red with all combos of pistols and melee weapons so you can take what benefits the squad and/or what you can afford to upgrade to with the last few points. Since bland power armor marines are a dime a dozen, you can just try a bunch of different loadouts without hitting your wallet too hard.
For dreads, I'm not terribly a fan of the BA specific ones. They seem ok yet pricy. And if I were to run them, they would absolutely go in a raven.
The storm hawk/talon is actually not a BA unit. You can still take it via astartes or imperium detachments, but it won't benefit from BA buffs/powers etc. This might become way more relevant once we have codexes and (most likely) get neat bonuses for keeping our armies 100% theme-specific. Currently there's no real downside to tossing in imperial-whatevers to your detachments, but I can imagine that chapter tactics in the future will probably be like "...If every model in the detachment is BLOOD ANGELS..." That's just conjecture though.
Captains give the reroll 1's to hit aura, so the termie and jump pack captains kinda compete with each other for the same role: Deep striking in with a shock assault force or flanking shooting force and buffing them. Depends on if you want a mobile captain after the landing or a tougher one, as several wounds of 2+/4++ is not fragile.
A lot of things in our army list are now decent/good, so it's hard to say where to go with your purchases. Bland captains or Tycho make decent cheap reroll 1's auras for a mob of your dudes. Razorbacks are shockingly good. Sniper scouts can stick a few wounds past really good saves and target characters, so invaluable when facing say...a tide of necron warriors next to a cryptek.
I'm a fan of Mephiston, being able to 2x/turn deny at +1 and protect your dudes a bit from psychic attack, while having decent powers and still being one of those "I eat entire squads by myself" guys, all while being only middle-ground priced for an HQ.
You also probably want to start building up a store of heavy weapon guys. Big hitter weapons can be really important when your opponent is all mech'd up. Devastators, predators, shooty dreads etc.
The storm hawk/talon is actually not a BA unit. You can still take it via astartes or imperium detachments, but it won't benefit from BA buffs/powers etc. This might become way more relevant once we have codexes and (most likely) get neat bonuses for keeping our armies 100% theme-specific. Currently there's no real downside to tossing in imperial-whatevers to your detachments, but I can imagine that chapter tactics in the future will probably be like "...If every model in the detachment is BLOOD ANGELS..." That's just conjecture though.
Yeah, I know it's not "official" BA but that doesn't seem to matter at this point. I know I can't give it BA buffs.
The storm hawk/talon is actually not a BA unit. You can still take it via astartes or imperium detachments, but it won't benefit from BA buffs/powers etc. This might become way more relevant once we have codexes and (most likely) get neat bonuses for keeping our armies 100% theme-specific. Currently there's no real downside to tossing in imperial-whatevers to your detachments, but I can imagine that chapter tactics in the future will probably be like "...If every model in the detachment is BLOOD ANGELS..." That's just conjecture though.
Yeah, I know it's not "official" BA but that doesn't seem to matter at this point. I know I can't give it BA buffs.
Just tossing it out there, as I feel like it would be a disservice if you didn't know and no one informed you.
Melissia wrote: Since BA can legally take Stormravens, you can use the ravens to drop off your assault marines fairly close to the enemy, which is something I've been mulling over in my brain every now and then.
Not a bad idea. Now that Drop Pods are severely overpriced, that might be a worthwhile option. Previously I ran 2 meltacide pod-squads. For the price of the 2 pods, I am not a long way off the cost of a Storm Raven which I think is a far more powerful unit. I can fit both squads in and drop them off at a convenient point without even having to drop into Hover mode.
A DC Dread might be fun as well. 4 Meltas will deal with most targets but against really tough opponents, following up with a DC Dread with Magna grapples should ensure a knock-out blow.
Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I'd just paint your Tacs helmets blue and take Devs instead with multiple Heavy Flamers (and the Cherub to double tap one of them)
Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I'd just paint your Tacs helmets blue and take Devs instead with multiple Heavy Flamers (and the Cherub to double tap one of them)
I think the "loadout of choice" is 5 man, heavy flamer, combi-flamer in a razorback with twin assault cannons, a storm bolter and HK missile. It's a TON of firepower for like ~180-190 points. Also lets you fill out a battalion if you need troop fillers.
casvalremdeikun wrote: What would be a better use of points, two Assault Cannon+Heavy Bolter Baal Predators or a MM+Assault Cannon+Hurricane Bolter Stormraven?
I am leaning towards the Storm Raven. Whilst it has less wounds than 2 Predators, the -1 to hit helps out a bit and the dakka from the hurricane bolters is great fun. Don't forget that POTMS helps its accuracy too.
However to really get the value out of the SR, you need to be taking advantage of its transport capacity. Getting a Dreadnought and 1-2 squads of infantry close to the enemy at high speed. Now that our Assault squads have found the keys to the special weapons cabinet again, we can fit 2 meltacide squads in there to bust heavy targets plus a DC dread tagging along for the ride. Mephy + Command squad or some Assault Terminators are also viable passengers.
If you are not using the Transport capacity of the SR then the Predators are probably better (although 3 Razorbacks with Assault Cannons would arguably be even better and would still give you some transport capacity). If you can make use of a fast, large durable transport then the SR has a lot in its favour.
Looking at it, I can't help but remark if a couple intercessor squads might be worth taking to sit on objectives and take up troop slots to give more command points. They've got a superb point-per-wound cost for a space marine unit, and they have good range on their AP-1 bolt rifles. Might be a good choice of backline objective-sitters while sparing points for death company and the like.
Melissia wrote: Looking at it, I can't help but remark if a couple intercessor squads might be worth taking to sit on objectives and take up troop slots to give more command points. They've got a superb point-per-wound cost for a space marine unit, and they have good range on their AP-1 bolt rifles. Might be a good choice of backline objective-sitters while sparing points for death company and the like.
Not a bad idea. Slightly more expensive than a 5-man tac squad but not much different once you add in the obligatory heavy weapon. The difference is that a Tac squad needs that heavy weapon to achieve anything significant. The Intecessors can manage more with their basic bolt rifles. Good if you want the 3CPs from a Battalion.
However I am still leaning towards the Vanguard and supreme command detachments and playing to our strengths. You get slightly fewer CPs but you can avoid the Troop "tax" entirely. I think some experimentation is called for.
There's also one more advantage. You get ten wounds, but only have to provide cover for five models. They're slightly larger than tacticals, yes, but still only five models. To get ten wounds with tacticals you'd need two 5-man squads or one ten-man squad, which is a lot harder to give cover to, especially with the new cover rules.
Edit: So basically I'm saying Intercessor squads are superior bullet sponges over tacticals or scouts, point for point. Which is quite a useful feature for a troops choice.
Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I'd just paint your Tacs helmets blue and take Devs instead with multiple Heavy Flamers (and the Cherub to double tap one of them)
I think the "loadout of choice" is 5 man, heavy flamer, combi-flamer in a razorback with twin assault cannons, a storm bolter and HK missile. It's a TON of firepower for like ~180-190 points. Also lets you fill out a battalion if you need troop fillers.
More like ~250pts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Brigade Detachment +12CP 1997pts
+ HQ +
Captain Power sword, Storm bolter
Sanguinary Priest Power sword, Storm bolter
Sanguinary Priest Power sword, Storm bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad
. 4x Space Marine: Heavy bolter
Devastator Squad
. 4x Space Marine: Heavy bolter
Devastator Squad
. 4x Space Marine: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon
Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon
Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon
This is a Brigade list I've been working on. Trying the age old method of more boots on the ground wins games. I know it only has 3 tanks, which may make them a liability. I ay take them out, but what should I replace them with? What are you thoughts on the list? Too many squishy bodies?
Or six terminators, which is a basic squad of 5+character. Perfect for having an ancient + assault squad (rerolling all hits in the fight phase is brutal!)
Melissia wrote: Or six terminators, which is a basic squad of 5+character. Perfect for having an ancient + assault squad (rerolling all hits in the fight phase is brutal!)
Yeah, I figured JP = Terminators in this instance. It's just the wording in the rule book is a little convoluted.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, GW released info on codexes, starting this December (though nothing mentioned specific regarding BA)
If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.
How long do I have to wait? I want them now!
Not long! Codex: Space Marines lands in July, and then before Christmas, we’re aiming to have around 10 codexes available for you to choose from.
Melissia wrote: Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be "Hey, we tried too hard for balance, marines should be stronger than this" like in fifth.
Could be! We already have Razor Rush back in full force, maybe they will give us back Assault Marine troops!
It'll be nice to get free CPs, bug honestly, it's not even needed. Outrider Razorback Rush is going to be nice.
That's mostly what I am getting at. Free CPs would be great. Maybe if GW pulls their heads out of their collective asses and makes Dante more than just a beatstick (seriously, he is a better tactician than Calgar, but doesn't get anything for it), I wouldn't feel it to be as important.
Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either
This is a great example of where codex compliiant setup waste the BA special talents, if you have Sang Priest, it pays to have more melee weapons.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either
This is a great example of where codex compliiant setup waste the BA special talents, if you have Sang Priest, it pays to have more melee weapons.
And if you like running Codex Compliant Blood Angels, you may as well make the most of it, and enjoy playing the army you want to play, not the one that doesn't "waste special talents."
And with the Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Power Weapon on the Sergeant, you're putting out a lot of hurt against anything T4, plus you can bring back anybody special you happen to lose. Just keep to cover for 2+ Marines
Melissia wrote: Besides, the priest still buffs the tactical squad making them deceptively stronger in melee than you'd expect tacs to be.
You could do this with devastators too..... Just trying to help him optimize, specifically because he asked. "hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules"
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either
This is a great example of where codex compliiant setup waste the BA special talents, if you have Sang Priest, it pays to have more melee weapons.
And if you like running Codex Compliant Blood Angels, you may as well make the most of it, and enjoy playing the army you want to play, not the one that doesn't "waste special talents."
I'm sorry if I'm talking about optimizing and tactics in a tactics thread. Please don't throw the "Play the army you like playing" crap at me. I'm a huge lore junkie and love playing lore related lists (Thus why I feel people should be suing Assualt marines as the primary backed up with very few tacticals if any at all)
And with the Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Power Weapon on the Sergeant, you're putting out a lot of hurt against anything T4, plus you can bring back anybody special you happen to lose. Just keep to cover for 2+ Marines
Taking flamer weapons and hiding in cover doesn't seem like something that works so well together.
We're not discussing the army with no Tactical Marines that you like to play mate, we're discussing ways of optimising a Codex Compliant list with Tactical Marines. If you don't want to use Tactical Marines, you don't have to.
I should clarify, keep to cover as you move up the board, don't hide in it at the back if you have a flamer squad.
Tac marines in razorbacks are pretty good, because razorbacks. Also, perma-combis make them much more attractive. And bodies alone determine ownership of objectives. 13 pts dudes in cover getting a 2+ save vs shooting isn't terrible.
-Elites - Death Company squad, 15-man with Jump Packs (30 power)
- Death Company squad, 5-man with Jump Packs (10 power)
- Death Company Dreadnought (11 power)
= 74 power
-Heavy - Baal Predator (8 power)
= 82 power
-Fliers - Stormraven (9 power)
- Stormtalon - Imperial (not BA official keyword, so no buffs - 9 power)
= 100 power
I still don't have full equipment selected, so no raw point total yet.
buddha wrote: Core of any SM list I've made so far keeps going back to 3 5 man tac squads with plasma (and combi plas) in assault cannon razorbacks. So efficient.
What about 3 man Assault squads with 2xplasmagun, plasma pistol?
buddha wrote: Core of any SM list I've made so far keeps going back to 3 5 man tac squads with plasma (and combi plas) in assault cannon razorbacks. So efficient.
What about 3 man Assault squads with 2xplasmagun, plasma pistol?
It's more that troops fill out a battalion detachment for that sweet +3cp and are not just a tax.
buddha wrote: Core of any SM list I've made so far keeps going back to 3 5 man tac squads with plasma (and combi plas) in assault cannon razorbacks. So efficient.
Interestingly, a 5 man Strike Squad of Grey Knights with Psilencer is just as efficient, at least versus MEQ targets, and costs within 15 points. The Knights obviously fall off a little versus high T targets (specifically for T7 3+ w/in rapid fire range or against T8+ in general), but are also way better against anything softer than power armor, Plus you get the HtH and other GK goodies. I was a little shocked they were even close actually. I've always had a soft spot for Grey Knights, dating way back to the original lead Terminator models, so it's nice to be able to think about using them and have them stack up decently against some of the most efficient stuff going. Sure, the 15 points per adds up if you take more than one squad, but for 15 points-ish a squad I'll take deep strike, mini-Smite, Deny, and solid HtH.
Mostly I point this out because taking one or two GK units in a Marine army is actually super fluffy (historically anyway), and I really like stuff that is both fluffy and efficient.
buddha wrote: Core of any SM list I've made so far keeps going back to 3 5 man tac squads with plasma (and combi plas) in assault cannon razorbacks. So efficient.
I don't like plasma guns at all, really. We'll see.
diepotato47 wrote: And with the Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Power Weapon on the Sergeant, you're putting out a lot of hurt against anything T4, plus you can bring back anybody special you happen to lose. Just keep to cover for 2+ Marines
Two of my squads have Hand Flamer/Powerfist on sergeant, flamer, heavy flamer riding in Rhinos with two storm bolters. I really liked the idea of the hand flamer since I believe it works in close combat right? Thought I could use it to offset the slightly worse hit rate of the Powerfist.
By the way, thanks for all the great responses guys! Feeling pretty confident that my army should still be able to smash face.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.
Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.
If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either
I plan on running my Sanguinary Priest essentially down the middle in the Razorback that will have the Company Ancient with Standard, Company Champion, Command Squad and Captain flanked by the flamer squads in Rhinos. A bit mind blowing how many slots just making a standard Command Squad now takes!
Frozocrone wrote: Is there any reason to run your chapter as any but Blood Angels?
Seems like you miss out on a bunch of rules if you go say Flesh Tearers or Marauders.
From what I can tell, seems like you only miss out on named characters, although FT have Gabriel Seth that looks good.
I think successor chapters (including made up one) still get all the perks, since you're replacing BA keyword with your faction name. But I could be wrong.
So far, I've come up with three ways to expand this to 2k.
1: DCDread w/2 HF, Fists, Magna, carried by a Stormraven with 2 StormML, 2 AssCan, 2 HB, 2 Hurricane Bolters, play around with upgardes on the HQ models
2: An additional terminator tactical and terminator assault squad kitted out the same way as the ones I already have.
3: Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack, CCW and PFist, Death Company with CCWs, PSwords, and Jump Packs, carried in the same Stormraven where they jump out the back to assault.
They're all really neat ideas and fit the theme of the list well enough. The DCDread is a killing machine, it'd take something like a Knight to kill it in close combat. And at 2k, almost no one expects five termie squads with termie character support. And of course, Death Company with a sanguinary priest-- which can also buff the termies if needed!-- is always a valid choice. What's everyone's opinion on the three options?
Definitely looks like a character-killing army. looks like it will work, but 5" movement is gonna slow you down. I'd expand with either DC or some mobility options like vanguard vets or an assault squad. You might be able to use the teleport homer to your advantage with the terminators, but I don't know if you can depend on it.
Just curious if 5 Death Company in a razorback would have enough staying power or I should stick with larger squads jump packing in. My thoughts were to use 5 DC with a Razorback and Assault Canon. Keep the DC without any upgrades mostly.
So can we maybe get a review of our special units? Ive only had a couple of games but ive found a few units that put in work:
Dante makes a great beat stick from what ive found, if he charges something its probably going to die. Re-rolls to hit are nice but its a shame that Sanguinary guard get re-rolls when near a character, youd think it would be re-rolls to wound instead since dante + captains already give wounds but never mind.
Jump pack Company vets with plasma guns put in serious work especially when deep striking in with Dante for sweet over charged re-rolls.
Mephiston is a beast, hits hard and psychic buffs are always useful. For his points he always does well.
Death Company are the blender unit they've always been, cast unleash rage and they just murder things, a couple of hidden thunder hammers and they can also make a mess of big things.
Ive been a bit underwhelmed by Sanguinary guard when I've played them, they just seem a bit expensive. Ive also not had much luck with the priest, I think i prefer the Librarian with Sanguine Shield for the 4++ instead of reviving wounds but ill admit I probably need to play them more to get a better feel for them.
Tacticals with heavy flamer, combi flamer and twin assault razorback has been great for anti horde so they still have a use.
As I say I've not had that many games so far so would like to see what other people think?
fatbudda319 wrote: Dante makes a great beat stick from what ive found, if he charges something its probably going to die. Re-rolls to hit are nice but its a shame that Sanguinary guard get re-rolls when near a character, youd think it would be re-rolls to wound instead since dante + captains already give wounds but never mind.
Because he gives rerolls to anything, I like to run him with Vanguard or Company Veterans. A few Thunder Hammers really help to wreck large targets and they really benefit from Dante's rerolls. VanVets can be run as larger squads but Company Vets can be used to intercept wounds on Dante in close combat which helps keep him alive and kicking for longer.
Ive been a bit underwhelmed by Sanguinary guard when I've played them, they just seem a bit expensive. Ive also not had much luck with the priest, I think i prefer the Librarian with Sanguine Shield for the 4++ instead of reviving wounds but ill admit I probably need to play them more to get a better feel for them.
Run them with a Sanguinary Ancient as a cheap Warlord (he gives himself rerolls as well as the Squad) and allows them all to reroll 1s to wound which helps their damage output. Add a Priest for +1S and wound healing and you are good to go. Best loadout in this configuration is probably Glaives.
If you want to run them with a Libby then Sanguine Shield and Unleash Rage are really nice but not guaranteed (unlike the Priest's bonuses which are less powerful but cannot be countered). In this configuration I would probably go for Axes as S5 is a bit of a sweetspot on the to-wound chart.
senor_flojo wrote: Definitely looks like a character-killing army. looks like it will work, but 5" movement is gonna slow you down. I'd expand with either DC or some mobility options like vanguard vets or an assault squad. You might be able to use the teleport homer to your advantage with the terminators, but I don't know if you can depend on it.
I mentioned three ways I was thinking of expanding.
senor_flojo wrote: Definitely looks like a character-killing army. looks like it will work, but 5" movement is gonna slow you down. I'd expand with either DC or some mobility options like vanguard vets or an assault squad. You might be able to use the teleport homer to your advantage with the terminators, but I don't know if you can depend on it.
I mentioned three ways I was thinking of expanding.
I played 4 matches in 8th edition so far and I've been literally tabled out by sisters, dark eldars, eldar and tau. In all occasions I couldn't manage to go further than the third turn.
What I noticed is:
- deep striking units that don't manage to charge die miserably
-a single stormraven is not enough (but I only have one damn it), especially if the enemy player manages to steal the initiative
- land speeders are useless
- assault squads with jump pack are good but they don't deliver enough dakka to kill a vehicle in a round of shooting and they get obliterated.
- no matter what edition we're in, even if 8th looks better for everybody in general, I guess I suck at this game xD
Deep strike out of LoS, helps a lot.
Single storm raven is fine if there are other things to draw fire.
Land speeders are much better than before
ASM can have melta, so they can assist in killing a vehicle for sure.
Deep strike out of LoS, helps a lot.
Single storm raven is fine if there are other things to draw fire.
Land speeders are much better than before
ASM can have melta, so they can assist in killing a vehicle for sure.
Need an example list.
Here s my last list I played against the tau:
Outrider Detachment:
HQ
sanguinary priest
Fast attack
5 x assault squad: 2x plasma gun, sergeant with plasma pistol and chainsword
5 x assault squad: 2x plasma gun, sergeant with plasma pistol and chainsword
land speeder, heavy bolter and typhoon missile launcher
land speeder, heavy bolter and typhoon missile launcher
I had mephiston, the two DC units and the furioso embarked onto the raven, while the two assault squads where embarked upon the razorbacks.
The tau player had 5 FW skimmers that were able to almost always hit on 2 re-rolling 1 a flyer and a commander with 6 strange drones in reserve. He managed to stole the initiative: he killed the raven and the 2 razorback turn 1 because he decided to already deep strike his commander and these drones who have a lot of dakka
If you want to deepstrike, to take out a Vehicle, use 5 Company Veterans with Jumppacks, Stormshields and Combi-Meltas. Adding a Captain with Jumppack, Stormshield and Combi-Melta will let you reroll 1s to hit. Or give them Combi-Plasmaguns, not so good at killing Vehicles (you can supercharge though, rerolling 1s with the Captain), but really good when firing Overwatch, 20 Shots. Because they can fly, they can fallback and shoot, when they get charged.
Or use 5 Vanguard Veterans to deepstrike, with 2 Plasma Pistols each. Also not the best choice at killing Vehicles, but 10 Shots Overwatch is not bad. Adding a Captain with Jumppack, and also with two Plasmaguns lets you reroll 1s, if you decide to supercharge them. In CC they can use their Pistols. And they can fallback, and shoot, because they can fly. You can also replace one Plasmapistol with a Stormshield, for better Protection.
Adding a Sanguinary Priest with Jumppack isnt a bad Idea, either. He can revive killed Models, from a supercharged Plasmagun/Pistol, killed in CC, or whatever.
Sanguinary priests are quite damn good for their points.
That +1s alone would be worth the price, but then add in that they're an apothecary on top of it...
p5freak wrote: If you want to deepstrike, to take out a Vehicle, use 5 Company Veterans with Jumppacks, Stormshields and Combi-Meltas. Adding a Captain with Jumppack, Stormshield and Combi-Melta will let you reroll 1s to hit. Or give them Combi-Plasmaguns, not so good at killing Vehicles (you can supercharge though, rerolling 1s with the Captain), but really good when firing Overwatch, 20 Shots. Because they can fly, they can fallback and shoot, when they get charged.
Or use 5 Vanguard Veterans to deepstrike, with 2 Plasma Pistols each. Also not the best choice at killing Vehicles, but 10 Shots Overwatch is not bad. Adding a Captain with Jumppack, and also with two Plasmaguns lets you reroll 1s, if you decide to supercharge them. In CC they can use their Pistols. And they can fallback, and shoot, because they can fly. You can also replace one Plasmapistol with a Stormshield, for better Protection.
Adding a Sanguinary Priest with Jumppack isnt a bad Idea, either. He can revive killed Models, from a supercharged Plasmagun/Pistol, killed in CC, or whatever.
That sounds really interesting thanks a lot. We are playing with PP and a five man unit will cost 10, which is exactly the same as the SG and DC with jump pack. The sad news is that I own 0 company veterans and have 0 combi-melta left xD
Hi everyone, I'm a matt ward blood angel and I'm finally trying to get back into the hobby. ^_^ My absence was more job/location related and just happened to coincide with sixth and seventh being a dumpster fire for all but the hardest core. I still bought the books and dreamed of playing though.
Anyway, I just read this whole thread and here are my takeaways:
1. JP company veteran melta squad is a far better investment for wrecking what needs wrecking than a melta assault squad.
2.Because of 1, don't take assault squads for assault. Take vanguard vets instead. Kit it out similar to an assault squad with no meltas and it's a far greater investment if you intend to smack things. (TH, couple storm shields, x7 chain swords.)
3. Do not bank on deep strike assaulting. Only bank on that if you bring Lemartes. Even that should be in conjunction with storm raven dropping its payload. SR exists so you can get fewer drops and first turn.
4. Basically assault squads are dead to me. Gonna be repainting 30+ helmets.
5. That battle report against Tau was just unfortunate.
6. Intercessors are the best point for point objective holders, no one takes ten man squads anyway now. However, you pay tactical tax for the honor of a missile launcher and razorback. Please correct me if an intercessor can unlock razorbacks for your list.
7. storm bolters on vehicles are always worth it now.
brokbrok wrote: 6. Intercessors are the best point for point objective holders, no one takes ten man squads anyway now. However, you pay tactical tax for the honor of a missile launcher and razorback. Please correct me if an intercessor can unlock razorbacks for your list.
As far as I know you only need one unit (any kind) for each transport unit in your army. Which means that you can run a full Primaris army with Razorbacks.
The appeal of the assault squads in razorbacks for me is that they can take two rapid fire plasma guns and the sergeant can take a pistol. I know they have one base attack so the name assault isn't kind of silly for them but with two special weapons in a squad of 5 or 6...they have better firepower than tacticals.
Codex should return them to their former status as troops.
I would be careful with the sanguinary priest, it basically do nothing a turn out of 2 and this is extremly expensive if you fail rolls. The price is mostly 2 more figs in any elite units. Test and see.
PandatheWarrior wrote: I would be careful with the sanguinary priest, it basically do nothing a turn out of 2 and this is extremly expensive if you fail rolls. The price is mostly 2 more figs in any elite units. Test and see.
I wouldn't go hog wild with them but I think they are going to be a pretty good investment if you bring 1 priest, MAYBE 2, probably 1 though. I mean, he's a pretty beefy body, can be equipped pretty cheaply with power axe and plasma pistol, and has a nice stat line to help bring the pain in CC and hopefully gets to bring back or heal up some units in the process. might be better tagging along with Sang guard with encarmine swords, since healing wounds is automatic and you don't risk standing around doing nothing quite as much.
If you're using death company, I'd say one sanguinary priest is an auto-take. Basically doubles their ability to get back up from taking damage, and makes your points investment in upgrades on the DC much easier to swallow.
Though I'm considering a sang priest to go with terminators... if only I could get a sang priest in a terminator suit...
The Sanguinary Novitiate (Apothecary) with a jump pack is a nice cheap 4 wound elite choice at 4 Power Level. While it doesn't give the benefit of the +1 Strength from the High Priest option, running one with a death company or Sanguinary Guard squad to help heal wounds or bring models back is a big help for sure.
I think the +1 S aura is ballin. It makes our power swords into the weapon of choice on the power weapon triangle, which is fitting.
I'm really not impressed with nartheciums on bland apothecaries/novitiates in this edition. Even on Corb who gets a personal reroll every turn to use for it. Just seems like unless you're bringing back an uber-model like a centurion, you would've been better off just taking more dudes.
With the BA addition of the S aura and the fact that our priests are melee threats in themselves, I like the BA priests though. I just consider the narthecium use to be an occasional good happenstance if it comes up.
Melissia wrote: Try nartheciums on death company. Basically lets them get two rolls, one's a 6+ and another's a 4+.
But it's not a FNP, it's a single 4+ to get a single dude back on your next movement phase, regardless of how many just went down around the priest, that carries the risk of failing and making the priest freeze up. I mean I run a priest with a DC contingent for the aura already, but the narthecium does jack all as far as damage mitigation on power armor 1 wounders. If you're taking fire, you aren't losing a dude, you're losing a dozen.
And the 4+ to get a single dude back helps mitigate those that fail that 6+ test-- which is likely to be at least one if ya get my drift . Never said it was FNP. But it alongside +1 strength is superb.
I bring the priest just for the +1 Strength buff and I only used the narthecium once to bring back a single sanguinary guard. It's too risky to use his healing ability to bring back a single 1 wound model even if you use a re-roll which, according to me, is wasted anyway.
During my 4 games I played so far, I sadly noticed that when DC fails the charge, you are starring at 5 dead models and there s not much left to heal xD
Melissia wrote: And the 4+ to get a single dude back helps mitigate those that fail that 6+ test-- which is likely to be at least one if ya get my drift . Never said it was FNP. But it alongside +1 strength is superb.
I was talking more about red-thirst's suggestion to bring a bland novitiate which doesn't have the aura or a good combat statline. I just don't see the healbot character ever earning his keep unless he's babysitting some extremely expensive models like centurions (which aren't in BA anyway) or inceptors, and then you run the risk of being treated like a necron unit, IE getting wiped without the chance to heal, not that one of those dudes coming back on 1 wound is anything to be compared with half a unit standing back up.
Like I said, the priests are bangin, they rock a solid melee character statline and have the awesome strength aura. I'd probably take them even without the narthecium. The narthecium and the bland guys that are just a body attached to it? No thanks.
Anyway, I just read this whole thread and here are my takeaways:
1. JP company veteran melta squad is a far better investment for wrecking what needs wrecking than a melta assault squad.
2.Because of 1, don't take assault squads for assault. Take vanguard vets instead. Kit it out similar to an assault squad with no meltas and it's a far greater investment if you intend to smack things. (TH, couple storm shields, x7 chain swords.)
Yup, this is pretty much spot-on. The Vanguard Detachment with its 3-6 Elite slots is your friend.
3. Do not bank on deep strike assaulting. Only bank on that if you bring Lemartes. Even that should be in conjunction with storm raven dropping its payload. SR exists so you can get fewer drops and first turn.
Even with Lemartes, you only have around a 50% chance to pull off a Charge out of Deep Strike. Not good enough odds for me, I would rather run the Jump Packers on foot behind a vehicle screen or just put them in transports.
4. Basically assault squads are dead to me. Gonna be repainting 30+ helmets.
Pretty much sums them up. The only point I can see is you want to run a Battalion or Brigade detachment for the extra CPs and have run out of Elite slots. Personally I wouldn't build an army in this way as I believe if you hit hard enough with good units, you will need fewer CPs anyway.
6. Intercessors are the best point for point objective holders, no one takes ten man squads anyway now. However, you pay tactical tax for the honor of a missile launcher and razorback. Please correct me if an intercessor can unlock razorbacks for your list.
Currently any unit can unlock a Transport, including Intercessors. This does create odd situations like taking a Razorback for your Land Raider to ride around in but it is perfectly legal. Also it is in the main rulebook rather than the Index so I don't see it being changed in a hurry.
For 100 points, Intercessors look like a solid back-field unit.
Martel732 wrote: ASM are cheap, mobile melta that doesn't have to pay for a tank.
That's the thing though, you get more for less with Company veterans w/ JP. The infernus pistol is useless when they DS so you really only get 2 melta before they probably die. One will miss, the other might wound. For a few points more you could bring in five whole melta guns and all but guarantee that one thing you need to die will die, or you could bring 2 meltas and a combi, with one ablative wound, for less points than the ASM melta squad.
Ministry had an alright point though, they are more efficient in a roving plasma squad.
I think ASM are more efficient as a cheap means to tie up enemy shooting units, myself. Just pop a single power sword on the sarge and dive in to enemy units, trying to consolidate in to other units or in to cover if there aren't any, if you happen to win.
Martel732 wrote: ASM are cheap, mobile melta that doesn't have to pay for a tank.
That's the thing though, you get more for less with Company veterans w/ JP. The infernus pistol is useless when they DS so you really only get 2 melta before they probably die. One will miss, the other might wound. For a few points more you could bring in five whole melta guns and all but guarantee that one thing you need to die will die, or you could bring 2 meltas and a combi, with one ablative wound, for less points than the ASM melta squad.
Ministry had an alright point though, they are more efficient in a roving plasma squad.
Even as a roving plasma squad, i think the vets are in a better position? 147 points nets you 4 plasma guns and a combi plas. Thats essentially a point click delete unit.
Yeah, when our book comes out, i think we really need a couple issues fixed imo.
First off, there absolutely needs to be a reason for us to take regular assault squads. They have been a staple of BA for many many years and the fact that they are totally overshadowed by both DC and VV with little reason to even bring them is a little disconcerting. Whether that be a points decrease to make them worth it or rules/wargear, but I have many painted JP assault squads and don't want to see them go by the wayside.
Secondly, I for us JP assault players, I think we really need decent of angels back in some form or another to help us get into CC from DS more reliably. Our assault brothers on foot now have transports they can assault out of while staying relatively protected form enemy fire, while the JP variety gets eaten up by enemy fire, overwatch and failed DS charges. If DoA added a couple inches to charge range off DS, or allowed BA to DS in a bit closer than other armies I think that would go a long way to shoring up what's been a pretty big issue for BAJP armies for a while now.
Then of course it would be nice to see the red thirst come back also in some form, but truthfully, if they fixed the first 2 issues, i wouldn't be too salty if we didn't get it back.
The points investment for ASM can't be justified. If you just want cheap units intended to lock ranged enemies in melee you can get yourself some rhinos. They provide you with cover, slightly more firepower and a whole lot more durability than ASM for the same cost will have. If you also want units that can kill opponents in melee you get VV or DC, you'll even have rhinos to put them in. There's an argument to be made for ASM as plasma guns with ablative wounds, but as scion command squads have shown it seems to be less important to bring ablative wounds than it is to bring more plasma guns/pts cost.
Is there any Rule against 5 Sanguinary Priests as a Unit (sort of) ? I would give them JP, Combi Plasmagun and a Poweraxe. Thats 106 points per Model, but they would be almost impossible to kill. Each Priest has 4 Wounds, they can heal each other (D3 wounds), and if one is killed, the others can try to revive him. They could fallback from CC, and still shoot. They have 20 Shots firing Overwatch. In CC they have 15 Attacks with S6 AP-2 W1, hitting on 2s.
I know they would be 5 individual Characters, thats why i said Unit (sort of). There is a Detachment which has 3-5 HQ only, so it would be possible. Brigade also has 3-5 HQ, but requires a lot more Units.
The reviving ability only works on still existing units, so you could not revive a priest once he has died as his "unit" is gone from the field. Which makes the tactic less valuable, but I bet it would be cool to run.
Here's a question. Do I take a priest to keep Mephiston, Lemartes, and six death company with +1 str and the occasional heal, or do I drop him for a captain running around the back line with a power sword to re-roll two autocannon preds and two asscan razorbacks?
Here is my advice from playing and against and with BA in 8th ed.
-Lemartes is a must if you have any DC. He greatly increases your chance of charging and greatly increases the damage from DC units in melee.
-A librarian Dreadnaught it just stupid good.. You can make him your general since he is a character and put him in the Stormraven. You can then give him the +1 attack for warlord traits. He can't be targeted unless he is the closest target which is amazing since he has less than 10 wounds. When he charges into combat he is just godlike. His force halberd is Str 10 and -4 AP allowing him to open up tanks like they were not there. In addition, he can use his psychic powers to buff near by DC units giving them an extra +1 attack and a 4+ invul save.
-Make sure you use synergy on units to buff them up. An example is the Sanguinor buff, Lemartes buff, priest buff, and Librarian psychic ability can make one death company unit get 50, Str 5 attacks, with -3 AP (with powerswords) that reroll failed to hits. Needless to say nothing really survives that charge.
-Make sure you equip all your death company with boltguns instead of bolt pistols. After seeing the diffrence boltguns help give your DC units much needed range and the ability to really punish screening units before charging tougher units. It also allows you to shoot squishy units hiding in the back.
-Think very hard where you want to establish a lodgment with your DC using jump packs. It is important to use your Stormraven and troops inside to create an area big enough for your follow-on units can jump into. If done correctly your entire army can suddenly be in the middle of your opponents and you will create panic in his army's center. Your DC simply destroy everything they touch if they are buffed from those auras. It is very scary to face and is almost impossible to deal with if you do this correctly.
-Equip you DC with powerswords and leave a few with chainswords to remove as casualties. Powerswords are just dirt cheap for what they offer. You could also consider having a small 5-man DC unit with 2 chain swords. Buffed correctly these guys get 7, Str 5 attacks, with rerolls to failed hits. These will tear through a horde unit and only costs 100pts for 5.
-Snipers are a solid option as others stated. I think you will find the camo cloaks worth it to prevent an easy kill point or first blood.
-If you are going to use tactical squads cheap them very cheap as objective grabbers. Don't pay for that heavy flamer since it will likely never earn back its points for you. You could invest them in other places with much larger returns on kills.
-Make sure you use terrain wisely. If you can jump within 9" on the opposite side of a building or terrain blocking LOS you can prevent any overwatch. This is very strong especially if you are being forced to charge tons of flamers or heavy flamers.
-TL Lascannon razorbacks are one of the bust buys in the game and helps clear out anti tank weapons that threaten your Stormraven.
-Hurricane bolters on the Stormraven rock! 24 Str 4 shots is pretty good especially after you have your DC/tactical squads shooting the same or other units. You can suddenly find yourself pumping out 80-100 bolter and hurricane bolter shots each turn and will cripple non tank units.
-The Sanguinor' +1 attack aura is very powerful
-Priests are amazing! They are so cheap, can heal your named characters, bring back dead Death Company models, can be given a powerswords to increase their damage, and most importantly give that +1 strength to nearby units. The reason that +1 strength is so important is suddenly against MEQ units you wound on a 3+ and against T8 tanks you wound on a 5+. Even thunderhammers suddenly wound tanks on a 3+ which greatly increases your damage output. It isn't even a question if this unit should be taken, instead the better question is how many should you take.
In summary if you use a librarian (i like the dreadnaught version), the Sanguinor, Lemartes, and a Sanctuary Priest to buff nearby units, it makes your army insanely killy. Not to mention all those characters are great in combat themselves. I feel this is how BA were meant to be played in 8th ed.
XTheWaffen wrote: The reviving ability only works on still existing units, so you could not revive a priest once he has died as his "unit" is gone from the field. Which makes the tactic less valuable, but I bet it would be cool to run.
senor_flojo wrote: It's a shame it's not really a BA unit, the Stormtalon looks great in Mephiston Red....
True but you can now run them in the same Detachment as they still have the "Imperium" and "Adeptus Astartes" keywords. You won't benefit from any Chapter-specific bubble abilities but since they are aircraft, they are going to be zooming out of bubble auras mostly anyway.
I'm currently plotting out a theoretical list based on my experience and feedback from this tactical thread. No points or anything, just looking at things and figuring out what's effective with what I have on-hand here.
Vanguard Detachment + Patrol Detachment (Done in order to field all models & HQ choices)
Vanguard Detachment:
-Librarian Dreadought
-Lemartes
-Death Company (5 models,)
-Company Veterans Squad (Jump Packs, Storm Shields, and a couple of melta guns + Powerfist Sergeant)
-Company Champion
-Sanguinary Novitiate
-Scout Squad (Camo Cloaks and CCW/BP)
-Tactical Squad (HF/Combiflamer + Lightning Claw)
-Rhino Dedicated Transport (Eventually a Razorback)
-Furioso w/ Frag Cannon or Death Company Dread (Not sure yet, leaning toward the fragioso)
-Assault Squad (5 man, 2x Melta + Inferno Pistol)
-Storm Raven (Dreadnought, Assault Squad + one Character ride here)
Only gives me 4 Command Points. Building to make the second detachment a Brigade instead to net me 7 Command Points instead and give me a 5th HQ slot for a Sanguinary High Priest as my final HQ choice.
Expanding outward, I will make the tactical squad larger, along with the death company (a second 5 man squad to land with the Storm Raven perhaps) and paint up some new Primaris troops marines once I get my hands on some as a backfield line holder.
Seems a balanced and fun list to try. I'm digging new Blood Angels, especially compared to the previous edition.
Melissia wrote: Lookin' good. Does have a bit of a limited model count is my only worry.
Yea, I've only been rebuilding this army for about a year, and painting very slowly since I'm pushing myself to paint it to as close to display quality that I can.
I'm pleased with the progress, but I have a LOT more to do still. Getting the first of two storm ravens painted up and then more infantry and a dreadnought. Lots left to do.
Take it easy for now and thanks for the feedback also.
A BA dread that takes a magna-grapple can pull itself attack-on-Titan-style towards any target as long as an enemy vehicle is within 12". Downside is that the vehicle crew gets angry and also overwatches, but oh well.
Mechanics: declare multi-assault against vehicle far away and actual intended charge target medium distance away. Both overwatch, then the charge range gets +2" regardless of if you decide to go to the vehicle or not.
Melissia wrote: Man, the DC Dread is so damn brutal. It's the only vehicle other than a stormraven that I'm seriously considering for my 1st and 10th list.
True but you do need a Storm Raven to deploy it. I guess you could try using it on foot as a distraction Carnifex but I think it is too pricey for that. DC Dread on a Raven or Libby Dread if advancing on foot.
Melissia wrote: Man, the DC Dread is so damn brutal. It's the only vehicle other than a stormraven that I'm seriously considering for my 1st and 10th list.
True but you do need a Storm Raven to deploy it. I guess you could try using it on foot as a distraction Carnifex but I think it is too pricey for that. DC Dread on a Raven or Libby Dread if advancing on foot.
I plan on having a DC dread and a Librarian Dread both being deployed via Storm Raven once I can get them both painted. But yea, priority will be getting the DC dread to combat asap.
The additional scout squads give a lot more staying power to the scout force this list would have already had. Second termie librarian can focus on using a different power than the 1st for matched play-- one using shield, other one using rage perhaps, or one rage and one bloodboil. Blood Boil's text makes me wonder if it can be used to snipe characters once you get close enough; it'd be pretty powerful against T3 characters. The PA captain would be there to support the snipers and MLs, put in fluffed as the leader of the scout deployment (because 35 scouts is a pretty major deployment after all). I think I could get three squads in that reroll-1s bubble, and with the jump pack and poweraxe he could maybe be good for counter-assaults on anything attempting to sneak past the wave of terminator units to get my scouts. not really 100% sold on the jump pack mind you, just kinda was finding places to spend those points at that point.
My only worry would be your anti-tank. You've got two Missile Launchers and two Assault Cannons, which while not terrible, are not a lot. I would consider perhaps a vehicle (Predator perhaps?) with all lascannons, or if you want to spend the points, a Storm Raven or even a good old fashioned Godhammer Pattern Land Raider? 4x Lascannon shots is nothing to sneeze at.
I love the concept for sure. It looks like a fun list.
Melissia wrote: Oddly enough, the primary anti-tank would probably be thunder hammers. Which I guess isn't ideal. I'll think on it.
Yea, doing D6 wounds, preferably at -2 or -3 AP is the sweet spot for vehicle hunting.
This is why I intend on bringing the Storm Raven(s) in my list. 2x wing mounted Missile Launchers each do D6 wounds at -2 AP, the nose mounted twin multimelta doing D6 wounds at -4 AP (rolling 2 dice & taking the highest ideally if inside 12") per shot, and a twin lascannon turret (if you prefer it over the Twin Assault Cannon) doing another D6 wounds at -3 AP. It's got 14 wounds and is pretty tough to take down, especially being harder to hit if not in hover mode.
Another option to consider that is much cheaper, but much more fragile, would be a couple of Land Speeders deep striking in with a pair of multimeltas, one mounted underneath and one mounted to the gunner's seat. Pretty brutal dropping 4x Multimeltas on a target inside of 12". Secondly you could run a Multimelta and a Cyclone Missile Launcher on the speeders for more potential hits and wounds at the cost of AP (-2 on the missiles vs.-4 on the multimeltas).
Just thinking out loud there. Hope that help stir up a few ideas.
Well, at least Krak grenades are somewhat useful. C'est la vie.
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