So guys, trying to figure out how Space Marines fair in 8th edition..
tac Marines are still restricted to 10 man squds if they want the heavy weapon, give the changes to heavy weapons do people see 10 man tac squads having a use? or are we still sticking with 5 man squads for maximum impact? (or are intercessors a better deal to the point where we should be abandoning our old tac squads for the new hotness?)
82 points gets you a 5 man tactical squad with a melta gun, who should be riding in a 100 point razorback with a twin assault cannon.
Get out and shoot a tank or monster, otherwise hang out in the razorback.
Intercessors will have to only ride in the Repullsor, and are 18 more points than my above squad for slightly better bolters and the wounds of a full tactical squad.
Personally im going to be going with the tactical squads still, but thats just my preference.
Should combiweapons still be taken? Is it worth it to take Power fists on Sgts or is it better to stick to the lower cost weapons since they only get two attacks?
I was debating doing 10 man Tac with flamer Cflamer and HB in a rhino, maybe Axe on Sgt. Is it worth going all in like that or better to spread out to 5s and the RBs and take Assault marines for getting in close?
Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.
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KaoxVeed wrote: Should combiweapons still be taken? Is it worth it to take Power fists on Sgts or is it better to stick to the lower cost weapons since they only get two attacks?
I was debating doing 10 man Tac with flamer Cflamer and HB in a rhino, maybe Axe on Sgt. Is it worth going all in like that or better to spread out to 5s and the RBs and take Assault marines for getting in close?
If you want quantity of attacks Chainswords are a cheap way to buff your SGT's melee. That said, combi weapons are frankly awesome and I'd either run them or the newly buffed (and 8 points cheaper) plasma pistol. The S7 shot is a lot better than it used to be and you only risk death if you over charge (and you can mitigate that risk if you're range of a captain or similar character).
ClockworkZion wrote: Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.
Nope. The datasheet specifies that you can only take one Special. However, the Sergeant taking a Combi-Weapon effectively gives you two Special Weapons anyway.
In other news, I am kicking myself over the fact I took the Chainswords off my two Combi-Melta Tactical Sergeants and gave them pointing fingers instead. Good news is that I have two more Tactical Squad kits to build two more Squads out of (Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Squads at that).
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changemod wrote: Anyone else find it a little ridiculous that only ultramarines are allowed to convert a land raider to have 8 Lascannons?
Anyhow, let's talk drop pods: Are there any tactical uses for them anymore now that they cost over 100 points?
I do. It irritates me quite a bit. It isn't like the Imperial Fists are going to be the only Chapter that gets the Land Raider Achilles either.
I spent some time yesterday reading through all of the SM book and here are some of my thoughts on it+ comments aimed at what people have already said:
The way I see it, putting Tacs in a Razorback only makes the Razorback more of a target, and the troops don't do much for you until they get out. Also, although the Razorback can move, it's better off sitting still, since most of the weapons are Heavy (though the classic Las/Plas has an advantage for this reason) and you then hit on a 4+. Additionally, if the Razorback does die with the guys inside, you are likely to lose at least 1 guy. I personally think my Razorbacks will be empty, sitting mostly in the back shooting things.
Also, I think the days of the suicide melta may mostly be gone. 1 Meltagun can't kill most tanks in one shot, and even 2 (Melta+combi) are not that likely to do so, making the double melta tac squad less effective in my opinion than before. And even if they were, I still don't think that a Razorback is the ideal delivery mechanism. Rhinos are also not great since they cost so much, and seem to mostly exist in order to boost an assault unit across the board so they can get out and charge something (not something Tac squads really care to do with their 6-11 attacks).
For all of those reasons, I think that Tac squads may now be better off as walking 5 man Plasma/Combi-Plasma squads, or 10 man Plasma/Combi-Plasma/Heavy Weapon combat squads (I think Las Cannons, Missile Launchers, and Grav might be the best options this edition). They can drop pod in and do some rapid fire goodness, or just walk into midfield shooting stuff at 12-24" and get objectives or whatever.
I would also consider having a Captain or Primaris Lieutenant around them, and any other back-line shooting units, for the re-rolling 1s to hit and wound.
Tacs are fairly useless in CC no mater what you give the Sergeant, and are somewhat low on the threat priority list compared to most other units, so i don't see them attracting too much attention even they are fairly unprotected.
I also don't see most people taking a ton of Tac squads this edition, though maybe a 60+ marine spam list could have some value, what with all of the other cool and useful units out there.
I think Devastators will be strong this edition, since Las Cannons and Missile Launchers are the main anti-tank guns and they are fairly cheap (165 Points for 5 guys 4 Las or ML) compared to predators and other heavy weapon platforms.
I also think anything with a jump pack or the ability to teleport will be pretty strong. Drop Pods too, but the unit inside will have to be so annoying it is worth buying the pod for 105...and i'm not sure SM have many units like that that cannot already take a jump pack...so i am not sure we will see much of them. It is too bad that Dreadnoughts and Centurions cannot go in drop pods anymore, as they have might actually be worth taking one for. As it is probably the only thing i can think of to take it with would be Sternguard, since their shooting at 9" is fairly good, making it less of a big deal if they make the charge or not.
Even though you have to roll fairly high to make the charge from over 9" away, some units should make it in to combat and probably wreck something, and at the very least you are in their face. Also, Shrike gives rerolls to this charge roll for jump pack units, and if you feel like playing as Blood Angels, Lemartes gives re-rolls to Death Company, so I feel both of those options are extra valid. And even for the Teleporting units, 5 terminators showing up in your face still demands attention whether they make the charge roll or not.
For HQs, I think Captains and Priamris Lietenants are the best all around choice, since rerolling 1s to hit and wound (respectively) are very strong by them selves, and somewhat devastating together. On a side note, the Space Wolf version of this (Lord + Wolf Guard Battle Leader) is even cheaper points wise, and both of those units have a lot more mounting options than normal SM, so i think they will be a staple as well.
Librarians seem good if you can make use of their powers in a good way. The normal SM powers are decent for buffing a CC unit and removing enemy invul saves, the BA powers are good VS low T enemies and buffing close combat units, the DA powers are good defensive de-buffs, and SW are a nice mix of defensive and damaging. Mephiston (BA) is Monster for only 145 points, and Njal, Tigurius, and Ezekiel are all also quite good for their points, so much so that im not sure its worth it to ever take a normal lib or rune priest (who seem extra mediocre this edition).
Chaplains seem good if you plan to do a lot of assaulting. The SW Wolf Priests seem even better since they can heal a unit D3 wounds so they go good with TWC/Wulfen Etc units.
Most of the other named SMHQs I haven't mentioned seem fairly mediocre to me. They mostly cost a lot without doing much more than the non-named versions. The SW ones on the TWCs seem okay but i'm not sure they are much better than a normal Wolf Lord (Harald Deathwolf might be better, i'll have to see). Roboute Guilliman is another one I'm not too sure about. He costs a lot, but his buffs to the army and pretty scary statline may very well make him worth it. Something worth trying out I think.
The Techmarine and Apothecary seem decent if you have enough units of that type to heal (Multi-Wound Models / Vehicles). A Techmarine can heal 5-15 wounds over 5 turns, which may be worth the minimum 70 points. The Apothecary is good with a unit of centurions or something.
Space Marine vehicles cost a lot more than did before, but i still think a lot of them will be good, most notably Predators. I think Land raiders will be good with a decent CC unit inside them, though they are also quite expensive. Land Speeders and most of the other tanks also seem okay, but they also seem to cost a lot. I guess time will tell which ones are actually worth it.
I think assault marines seem good with shrike and meh otherwise, scout snipers are a solid choice since they can hurt characters, and bikes seem like they are generally about as good as they were before, though the removal of salvo weapons hurt them some. But Bikes have more wounds now, so i think there is still a place for them as a fast source of plasma or grav.
I obviously left out some stuff, but that's all i have for now lol.
I'm leaning toward minimum squads with matching specials/combis. Not sure about transports yet at the cost, although I'm hoping White Scars get a mobility boost of some sort in the name of fluffiness. I'd like to go fully mechanized if it doesn't ruin my model count.
Heavies will go in Dev squads and hope to stand and shoot when they can and move when they have to. I own a bunch of Grav, but I may need to break out and build some other options.
Still on the fence about Assault vs. Bikes. The fact that the Fly keyword allows you to leave CC and still shoot is something to consider.
Remember, a drop pod is a Storm Bolter when it lands. It also no longer puts you in Melta range or flamer range, though it does put you in multi-Melta range.
Given that jump and terminator units can serve the purpose of leaping to the enemy side of the board, I'm not sure 100 points would ever be worthwhile unless something really creative comes to mind.
changemod wrote: Remember, a drop pod is a Storm Bolter when it lands. It also no longer puts you in Melta range or flamer range, though it does put you in multi-Melta range.
Given that jump and terminator units can serve the purpose of leaping to the enemy side of the board, I'm not sure 100 points would ever be worthwhile unless something really creative comes to mind.
Yeah, i think Sternguard are the only unit that it makes any sense for, or possibly devastators with Grav/Multi-Meltas, or maybe on of those units + a Named Character that you REALLY want to be near the rest of the guys in a mostly first turn jump pack/teleport list, but honestly both of those still feel like a long shot to me.
Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.
They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.
SeraphimXIX wrote: Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.
They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.
Yeah they definitely are not worth taking on Tac squads. Also, Tac sergeants actually only get 2 attacks with it as far as i can tell. Power fists are pretty bad VS vehicles anyway with only D3 damage, though they are still pretty good VS most infantry units, and on realy assault units (with at least 3 attacks, and usually some kind of re-roll character around) should actually be able to kill 1-2 dudes just with the fist.
At first I was worried about my lack of real troops choices due to using Bikes (White Scars), but I can still use a Fast attack detachment with Kahn, and a heavy detachment for my TFC and Centurions, and flyer detachment to recreate the Raptor Wing in my old list and still get at least 3 command points.
SeraphimXIX wrote: Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.
They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.
It's not as if you were hitting on a 3 most of the time against real opponents anyway. That said, the power fist is in fact objectively bad, since the thunder hammer costs the same and does more damage.
SeraphimXIX wrote: Sargent's are hitting on 4s with power fists now by default, which really hurts when they've only got 3 attacks. On top of that,with the new wounding chart they're wounding t5-t6 on 3s instead of 2s. They're wounding light vehicles on 3s and heavy vehicles on 4s, with no chance to spontaneously explode vehicles or knock off weapons.
They've been gutted pretty thoroughly imo. Don't think they're worth taking on sarges anymore.
It's not as if you were hitting on a 3 most of the time against real opponents anyway. That said, the power fist is in fact objectively bad, since the thunder hammer costs the same and does more damage.
Not everything can take a Thunder Hammer, and on a character (where you will be getting more attacks) they cost more. On non-character units, there is no reason not to take the Hammer if it is available though.
One army I am theory crafting in my head is a guilliman devstator based force. Guilliman provides the rerolls and has a mean counter punch against assault, and missile launchers were a big winner in the update
So I am trying to figure out which Ancient I want to take in my Honour/Command Squad. From the looks of it, the Chapter Ancient pays 9 pts for +1 Ld and +1 Sv compared to the Company Ancient. It sacrifices all customizability though. I can't really see how the Chapter is worth it. Additionally, the Chapter Ancient MUST take a Power Sword, so that bumps the difference to 13 points base.
Is there ever really a scenario that the Chapter Champion is better?
Think I'll be starting my own custom chapter soon, using Salamander CT if and when we get them. Have no interest in primaris at the moment, be sticking with the regular guys.
Really hope we get a new Scout kit one day, cause the current ones are ugly as hell.
ClockworkZion wrote: Tacts can get two Specials at 10 models now from the looks of it, which makes buying 10 and splitting them or just running a group and using the split fire more viable.
Nope. The datasheet specifies that you can only take one Special. However, the Sergeant taking a Combi-Weapon effectively gives you two Special Weapons anyway.
In other news, I am kicking myself over the fact I took the Chainswords off my two Combi-Melta Tactical Sergeants and gave them pointing fingers instead. Good news is that I have two more Tactical Squad kits to build two more Squads out of (Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Squads at that).
I stand corrected.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So some thoughts from a 1k Patrol detachmen game I had today against Space Wolves using Vanilla Marines (Imperial Fists) as well as watching a couple of other games:
Lascannons are quite potentially nasty. With the ability to reroll a die a phase, it's not hard to increase your odds of doing more damage.
That said, tanks definitely feel tankier. While anything "can" wound anything the higher number of wounds and better saves than older editions means that even if you can wound, doesn't that those wounds will get through. Even plasma (outside of Hellblasters) with all of the buffs it got doesn't negate the armour save, so while it wounds on 4 or better against most targets, it still has a chance of failure against a 3+.
Also with Rhinos being a 12" move until the start taking wounds, against anyone who doesn,t have proper anti-armour they can be in your face raher quickly without even needing to advance.
Just like in 5th, LoS blocking terrain to break up the table is a must. Not only does it help lessen hurt gunlines an deal out, it can slow down assault armies from being able to effectively cross tables as quickly. Our low point games where on a 4x4' table, and without some kind of center piece units could cross from one corner to the other rather quickly.
Deploy back from your 12" line if you can help it as first turn charges (in my case, Swiftclaws charging my Sniper Scouts before they could even blink) will hurt quite badly. A unit that dies at the top of turn 1 can't make points back, so protecting units will have to do with placement on the table as well as usage of cover.
Cover saves improving saves is quite awesome. Nothing quite like 2+ saves on your guys to make even a Tactical Marine feel tougher.
That said, in general Marines feel more durable. After three rounds of shooting I lost 1 tactical Marine. Command Point re-rolls saved one on turn 2, but the rest of my saves, to include 11 Frag shots, and a fair amount of other shooting did nothing to take the guys down. Remember how hard it is to kill a Marine in the fluff? It actually FEELS like that on the table.
Smart usage of multi-damage weapons (to include Overcharged Plasma) is a must for taking down multi wound models. Plasma pistols did more for me today to kill Thunderwolf Cav (Plasma Pistols and Power Axes due to points limitations) than my bolters. Likewise, two Lascannons and some lucky damage rolls murdered my Ven Dread before the poor old man could even get a turn to do anything.
Sternguard feel off currently. While they have a good veteran statline, taking combi weapons is now limited to two models, and doing so makes them lose the special ammo. Going forward, to save points I'd either run them with no upgrades and focus on weaker save models since -2 AP is great for killing anything with a 4+ and they have 30" range with Rapid Fire 1, or swap for special weapons or the two heavy flamers depending on how I intend on running the squad.
Melta is not going to punch holes through armour like it used to. That said, when it does put a hole in things it has a better chance of doing more wounds. Depending on cost and range considerations it can be a bit of a toss-up between Lascannonss and Multi-meltas. Lascannons will more likely put holes in things, and at loner ranges, but multi-meltas will more likely make bigger holes holes when they manage to punch holes into things.
Just a note: If a unit and a tank are both the same distance from a unit you wish to charge try to get the ank stuck in first. Nothing like watching your beastly close combat unit lost two guys to Overwatch on a short charge because you didn't let the tank try and take the shots first. Plus some tankes do bonus damge on a charge (some Land Raiders do D3 Mortal Wounds on a charge if you roll a 4+ on a D6).
If you like plasma you'll want a Captain somewhere close to them just to make Overcharging them more feasible. Plus the squad can then in turn protect the Captain by screening him.
Psychic powers feel pretty good. They aren't amazing but Smite eloed my dead scouts see some vengeance by accidently killing 3 Swiftclaws (rolled a 3 on D3 for Mortal Wounds) and Veil of Time made my opponent spend more time focusing on killing my Sternguard through shooting just because they would have gone first if he charged. Easy to use, quick but nowhere close to being overpowered. Due to a lack of Psykers or Invul Saves my other power Null Zone didn't get any use today.
Hopefully my rambling notes from today help you guys!
What are people's thoughts on double heavy flamer land speeders for 114. I know a twin Heavy Flamer Razorback is only 99pts, but those razorbacks don't move 16" and fly. A unit of 3 or these can move 20" +D6 if they advanced, and fire their heavy flamers.
(I assume that the point costs in the index are the current one and the costs in the starter box leaflet are to be ignored.)
At 20 points per model, I think the intercessors are pretty decent. Increased range, AP and survivability is probably worth 7 points over tacticals. Lack of options of course is a bummer, but I can see them being pretty decent MSU objective campers that can threaten large are due the long range of their weapons.
Hellblasters are pricey, but they pack a lot of punch. I think these are best to be used in combination with a barebones vanilla captain to give them rerolls, so they can blast with the high power setting relaively safely. A captain and two or three hellblaster squads would be a truly formidable firebase. They really nee that captain to babysit them though.
The inceptors I'm really most iffy about. I really love the models and i really wish they'd be amazing, but I really don't see it. With their weapons they're whopping 75 points per model! Is anyone really that afraid of heavy bolter shots?
So I originally wrote this up for B&C last night, but felt that since the topic is about Templars too apparently, that some actual Templar related squad load out and synergy stuff would be fair to share here:
After getting some play time in (thanks to my FLGS's copy of the new edition's rules) and watching other armies I feel like I may have an idea of where to go finally and felt like doing a write up to share with everyone else here.
The Crusader Squad and 8th Edition
While I have always been a large fan of the look of a horde of bodies running at their foes with little more than bolt pistol, chainsword and enough zeal to teach the meaning of fear and regret to anyone they face, times have changes, and so has the way we run Templars. Long dead are the all foot lists of Yore, and in their wake came MSU squads of guns and a strange shooty build of Templar that many felt uncomfortable with.
Strangely enough, I have to say that both may be the answer going forward. No, not alone as seperate squads or lists, but together in a single unit. And he reason why comes from the core rules themselves:
There is no weapon that a Crusader Squad can take that we can't charge in afterwards and beat someone to death with.
This understanding today has actually lead me to consider a more...schitzophrenic approach to Crusader Squads. One where the unit takes a special and heavy weapon (or melee weapon option if you don't like shooting someone with a heavy bolter and then beating the dead man's friends to death with it), and largely fills out the rest with bolt pistols and chainswords. The exception I feel should be on the Neophytes. Since Rapid Fire no longer prevents charging, giving them a couple of Bolters is not a horrible idea, mostly as they can help plink off a couple extra models before the charge to allow our Crusader Squads inflict as much damage as possible each turn. And if you lose some models, then taking them off first isn't a real problem as you'll be in charge range (or potentially charging If Overwatch killed anyone first) and not need the extra range to potentially whittle down a unit.
That said, the shotgun might be worth consideration if you olay in a meta with a large amount of T5 and/or T8-9 as the difference between wounding on 4s (compared to 5s) for the latter at half range, and 5s for the latter (compared to 6s) could help make a tougher to kill model (Gravis Armour models, big bugs, some tanks) a little easier.
Personal preference and local metas will largely impact how people load out their models for the new edition, but as Neophytes are only worse on their save, when it comes to shooting and melee, kitting them out as barebones duelist models will go a fair distance towards keeping our melee potential as high as it can, without locking the unit into only a short range unit that people will skirt around while plinking outside of its max range,
Now Sword Brethren are basically an auto-include since they're currently free. Now while that may change in the future, load out for these guys will still be important now. With access to the Sergeant wargear list they have a fair number of toys but I want to talk about some personal recommendations:
Pistols should basically come down to Plasma or Grav. Grav works best in metas with a lot of vehicles, fortifications and power armour/terminator armour while Plasma works well just about everywhere now. Plus plasma pistols are eight points cheaper than they used to be, making a screaming deal for what they do now. Points will determine which is right for you, but when it comes to those little death dealers, the bolt pistol just doesn't hold up.
Alternatively combi-weapons are more viable than before and make for a strong way for you to bring the hurt. Play in an area with a lot of hordes and need extra flamers? Combi all day. Want a second melta, or plasma gun? Hello combi. Need grav but want extra bolter shots for weaker save models? Combi it is. Basically this is how you fit two special weapons into your Crusader Squads, and with the change to pistols and melee attacks, you're not losing melee damage as much as an additional shooting attack if you're locked in. Pistols will be cheaper for pretty much all your options, but needs and preferences will be key here. Don't be afraid of spending a few more points for something since nothing we take can keep us from charging, and will only improve our overall abilites.
Now melee weapons are always a big question. Swords are basically as cheap as chips, have -3 AP and do 1 damage. They don't increase the model's strength though and while they can force more wounds, they do only 1 wound at a time (a problem shared by all basic melee weapons). Axes make us stronger by +1, but drop to -2 AP meaning a few more saves will slip through. Maces give us the best strength buff at +2 while dropping to a -1 AP.
Basically, what do you play against the most in the game? Choose your options based that, or consider that there are other options:
Lighting Claws are Power Swords that re-roll wounds and give an extra attack in melee when paired. Not bad, but peraps we need to look at somthing with more oomph. Like the Power Fist. At double strength, -3 AP and D3 in exchange of a -1 to hit damage the classic fist has finally seen some love. Quite the option when paired with the synergy of a Captain Marshal, Helbreatch or Grimaldus where the rerolls can push the odds more ink your favor.
But what if you expect to fight a lot of big things and need to do more consistent damage when you deal wounds? Look no further than the Thunder Hammer. Available to a Sword Brother via the Sergeant Wargear for only a couple points more than a Power Fist this weapon is everything a Power Fist is, but at 3 Damage. This means that the humble Sword Brethren is capable of dealing out up to 6 wounds a turn more consistently than the Power Fist. Frankly this is my go to choice for a unit option if I have the points. Horus Heresy style hammers are just icing on the cake in my book as well.
Now, with a fully loaded squad* the question of how to field them comes to mind. Let me help make that answer clear: put them in a transport. MSUs love the extra firepower support of a Razorback, and larger squads can take a budget Rhino, or the Death Blossom powered Land Raider Crusader (now only in Heavy Support slot versions until further notice).
The Rhino is definitely the best option for a Crusader Squad on a tight budget. Depending squad size the vehicle can house your Characters for extra protection, or act as a mobile shield to keep them from being as easy to target. While the firepower they bring isn't brag worthy, with them now moving 12" until they lost half of their wounds makes them better at ferrying things across the board, the key to usage of the Rhino is saturation: the more ou have, the higher your results are that things will get across the board. As a budget option to the Razorback, MSU Crusader squads can double up per transport, decreasing the number of units you place at deployment (as a transport plus transported units is a single placement), while also cutting down how many tanks you need to own to get your army moving.
For those who favor quality over quantity and want a tank that can beat up other tanks the LRC is the only real way to go. With Hurrican Bolters being Rapid Fire 6 each, the LRC is a proverbial death blossom on the table, even before adding in the Assault Cannon or the Multi-Melta.
Bascially if you don't want to build Rhinos or want to run the Black Templar version of a pimpmobile, take an LRC. In larger games, take two. Don,t expect to take too many since each on is a Scrooge McDuck's moneybin sized pile of points, but expect great things from them, or your opponent to point enough lascannons at it turn one to leave scorch marks on the table.
Now to support the Crusader squad we have characters, and while Helbretch and his reroll all misses is great (as is his bonus to strength on the charge) and Grimaldus helping much the same, generic Marshals and Castellans (aka Primaris LTs) will definitely have a place in your army at lower points levels. While they don't reroll all hits, generate extra attacks or give you a strength bonus, they still support an army nicely thanks to rules like Rites of Battle.
Chaplains are your other source of synergy, and while the generic ones lack Grimaldus' level of zeal, they still do a fair job supporting your unit.
In fact, the only one who doesn't buff our Crusaders is the Emperor,s Champion. Though since he is to be aimed at the keyword monster and/or character models you want dead, then his lack of synergy isn't important.
tl;dr: 1. Crusader squads basically look to be best run with a mix of melee and ranged options to better capitalize on doing as many casualties a turn and prevent enemy units from escaping unscathed from our threat bubbles.
2. Vehicles are important for protecting your guys but you can share so MSUs can mitigate the investment.
3. Synergy from characters is not only awesome, but manditory to making the army run well. And while the named characters bring it the best, the generic choices aren't bad choices either.
*Results may vary. See your nearest Crusade for details.
Coyote81 wrote: What are people's thoughts on double heavy flamer land speeders for 114. I know a twin Heavy Flamer Razorback is only 99pts, but those razorbacks don't move 16" and fly. A unit of 3 or these can move 20" +D6 if they advanced, and fire their heavy flamers.
It's definitely good, especially against hordes and MSU. It will be a point-investment though. I guess that is what I am liking about 8th. Points tend to model performance more accurately.
Probably. Scouts are still in their old 5th edition boxes so it's hard to say for sure, but I frankly don't see an issue with it,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: How are Ven Dreads and Vangaurd Marines looking this edition?
Ididn't try Vanguard Vets out yet, and sadly my Ven Dread died turn one to some unlucky damage rolls, but the latter definitely seems solid on paper. With a 6+ to ignore wounds suffered he has potential to hang out longer than a regular Dread, and he's got a solid statline.
One thing that jumped out at me right away was using ironclad dreads as an escort for Vulkan. That or stick him with meltagun command squad+apothecary in a HF razorback.
Characters can,t do anything from inside a transport without bespoke rules like the Chimera,s command vehicle rule that allows Officers to issue orders from their vehicle.
So yeah, Vulkan might be safer in a ank, but he won't be buffing the army from there.
BrianDavion wrote: So guys, trying to figure out how Space Marines fair in 8th edition..
tac Marines are still restricted to 10 man squds if they want the heavy weapon, give the changes to heavy weapons do people see 10 man tac squads having a use? or are we still sticking with 5 man squads for maximum impact? (or are intercessors a better deal to the point where we should be abandoning our old tac squads for the new hotness?)
You can always opt to take a 5 man tact squad with a heavy weapon if you wanted, no need for 10.
Other thoughts:
-I don't see a use for Missile Launchers unless you don't have very many heavy weapons and want to stay flexible. Otherwise just take lascannons, plasma cannons and heavy bolters. In Dev squads that are hanging back, I think having 1 plasma cannon is a must since you can choose to use the Signum ability and reroll a 1 (supercharged for days).
-I can see multi-meltas being decent in closer range, but kindof meh compared to a lascannon in stats/range/price.
Question:
Do people see flamers on tact squads being viable? I'm planning on running one 5 man tactical squad with a flamer & combi-flamer ahead of my plasma squad & heavy bolter squad, as a way to deter charges, overwatch if they do, and then fall back while the gun line blasts the unit that had charged. But I'm feeling a little put-off by the 8'' range on flamers... If they charge from 9'' I don't get overwatch and squad is useless.
Well, they only have a 27% chance of pulling of the charge on a single roll. And isn't their real value protecting the following squad anyway. Even with the charging squad being within range, 7 auto hits from the flamers, 3.5 wounds,versus 6+ save 3 applied wounds, 5+ save 2 applied wounds, 4+ save 1 applies wound, 3+ 1 applied wound.
Your other three will at best do 1 applied wound with the 6+ overwatch.
So realistically 5 man tac squad will dish out 2 applied wounds to a charging unit...
Pedroig wrote: Well, they only have a 27% chance of pulling of the charge on a single roll. And isn't their real value protecting the following squad anyway. Even with the charging squad being within range, 7 auto hits from the flamers, 3.5 wounds,versus 6+ save 3 applied wounds, 5+ save 2 applied wounds, 4+ save 1 applies wound, 3+ 1 applied wound.
Your other three will at best do 1 applied wound with the 6+ overwatch.
So realistically 5 man tac squad will dish out 2 applied wounds to a charging unit...
Ah, thanks for the calculations, appreciate that. That's fairly respectable, don't you think?
They are performing as a meat shield in a way, but scouts would 30 points cheaper just for that. I do like the Assaultd6 on 2 flamers though in an advance move. That alone might be enough to deter units from ramming right into my mid-field squads.
I've also taken a second look at the Intercessor squad, which seems like a pretty solid 100p option actually, and I'm coming around to them ascetically in terms of them being bigger.
Pedroig wrote: Scouts with Shotties would be a good shield, Assault 2, range of 12", with bonus Str within 6"...
Yeah for sure, probably a bit better than Scouts w/ combat knives. But... I got a squad of scouts a few weeks ago and already glue them together with knives, so that settles that. :/
I played a 1000 pt game against Orks with my Crimson Fists. He brought a ton of Boyz and some Nobs and Gretchin. My list was as follows:
Pedro Kantor
3 Company Veterans with a Power Sword and 2x Mauls
Company Ancient with a Power Mail
Apothecary
Razorback with Twin Heavy Bolter
2x Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Tactical Squad
2x Rhinos with Storm Bolter
Scout Squad with Boltguns
Devastators with 4x Lascannons
So my Elite unit chewed up whatever came at it and Pedro killed all the Nobs on his own. The Boyz were just too numerous for the Tactical Squads, they were eaten up in one turn. The Scouts took down 20 Gretchin on their own, which was funny. The Lascannons definitely kill single things well. They took out a Deff Dread. It seems to work best if they Focus Fire though.
Overall, we called the game a tie since we lost track of points. The takeaway for me was that I need stuff that can deal with hordes. So I am redoing my 2000 pt list and adding a Vindicator. I might take out the Ancient and add a fourth Company Veteran. This might free up some space to make the Rhinos into Razorbacks with bigger guns like Twin Assault Cannons. I look forward to more games though.
One build I'm gonna be experimenting with is a new way to do assault squads. giving the squad 3 plasma pistols and not bothering with a power weapon for the sergent, might have some intreasting effects. the assault Marines will definatly "prefer" softer targets. but they have eneugh plasma that if forced into a fight with heavy infantry they'll potentially inflict some damage. at the very least someone running a terminator squad would have to stop and think if he really wants to risk getting in CC and trading most of a terminator squad for an assault squad.
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
With splitting fire being s thing you could run two of each.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
With splitting fire being s thing you could run two of each.
This is how I used to run my Devastators (since the old kit didn't have enough to make a full squad). I may have to try it out.
stratigo wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.
Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.
Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
Plasma Cannons aren't really that much better than Plasma Guns. The Plasma Cannon only has the potential to do more shots(33% chance to do the same number), while the Plasma Gun will always do 2 shots at half range (66% chance to do the same as a Cannon).
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.
Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
Plasma Cannons aren't really that much better than Plasma Guns. The Plasma Cannon only has the potential to do more shots(33% chance to do the same number), while the Plasma Gun will always do 2 shots at half range (66% chance to do the same as a Cannon).
Biggest advantage for the cannon is range over the plasma gun. That said, it's still more of an elite model killer in nature than an anti-tank weapon.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Well, I think you only are considering Missile Dev's because you ran up against a horde army. In all other cases Las Cannons are better, and even against hordes I'd rather have Heavy Bolters on the cheap. Why not mix your Dev squad into 2 Las & 2 of something else (Missile or Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannons)?
Plasma Cannons can benefit from the Signum ability in Devastator squads too, don't forget. And are effective against everything, though mostly elites.
Also, I'd consider swapping out the Rhinos in your list. Not too many more points for a Razorback w/ Heavy Bottlers which would have chewed up hordes -if you can spare the points somewhere.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Well, I think you only are considering Missile Dev's because you ran up against a horde army. In all other cases Las Cannons are better, and even against hordes I'd rather have Heavy Bolters on the cheap. Why not mix your Dev squad into 2 Las & 2 of something else (Missile or Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannons)?
Plasma Cannons can benefit from the Signum ability in Devastator squads too, don't forget. And are effective against everything, though mostly elites.
Also, I'd consider swapping out the Rhinos in your list. Not too many more points for a Razorback w/ Heavy Bottlers which would have chewed up hordes -if you can spare the points somewhere.
Definitely. But Scrounging up 20 pts is going to be a little hard. The Ancient is probably going to just be turned into a regular Veteran with a Power Axe. Should free up some points. Enough for the Heavy Bolters for sure.
I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.
Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.
Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
Cannons? Maybe. Though at max you are getting 12 shots. I think if plasma is really your thing, you grab either sternguard with combis, or hellblasters for maximum shootiness.
You'd have to math it out really, and I'm not the math guy XD
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Jangus wrote: I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
There's already been a leak (Was it a leak or an announcement?) of a grav tank transport sometime in the future.
I mean, I'd legitimately urge people to hold off buying new models until the actual codex comes out and all the options are revealed. Unless you really dig the models and want to paint them up, then go for it.
Jangus wrote: I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
There's already been a leak (Was it a leak or an announcement?) of a grav tank transport sometime in the future.
I mean, I'd legitimately urge people to hold off buying new models until the actual codex comes out and all the options are revealed. Unless you really dig the models and want to paint them up, then go for it.
Do we have any idea when the codex is coming out? I was really looking forward to roasting some nid bugs haha
Oh lord just looked up that grav tank and eugh; I don't know how I feel about floating SM tanks. I just want to drop pod them, is that too much to ask?
Played two games at 1500 with a fairly junk list that i threw together
1 plan captain 1 terminator chaplain 3 10 man tacs with mixed heavy and special and power weapons a rhino and drop of two of them 2 ironclads 1 Vindicator things i leared.
Ironclads are freaky good if you manage to get them into CC. 1 shotted a rhino which proceeded to wreck 4 chosen. another basically 1 shotted a daemon prince. Vindicators are kinda meh i feel. it didnt really perform all that well. Plasma is some serious hotness with the option of not having to overcharge. came handy when taking out chaff while having the option to drop wounds on vehicles Pistols are really awesome as an extra attack while locked in CC (unless we played that wrong) Tac marines dont really do anything. dont expect them to do anything effective unless targeting other mooks. vehicles are skookum AF especially when using cover. drop pods are surprising useful for contesting points on the back field for linebreaker just like last edition. they are also very tough to kill outside of dedicated anti tank (pretty obvious i know) i need to try and make a cohesive list now.
I am loving every variation of scouts so far. The bikers are crazy value. The forward deployment is great if you can get into cover on/near objectives: cheap way to get a heavy bolter right up front.
The 'speeders durability has made them my firm favourite for harrassment, and the stormtalon puts out a crazy amount of dakka with that TL-Assault Cannon/double HB zipping all over the board.
And the Vindicator, ooft. Effective 34" range hitting on 4's.
Captain granting re-rolls to hit alongside a Dev squad; jump-pack characters with power weapons assaulting Flyers.
Just a lot of great stuff for fast and hard-hitting playstyles.
So some notes from the perspective of a Templar player (originally posted on B&C but reposting here):
✠ Sword Brethren are essentially back. Company Veterans are a wonderful source for a unit of up to 5 models (minimum of one vet and one sarge) who come with bolt pistols and chainswords. They can be kitted with a number of options, and are able to take storm shields to keep them from being AP'd out as easilly. Still only 1 wound, they are still a noteworthy option for people who want Sword Brethren without running Sternguard or Vanguard squads. And they have access to bikes where they get a bump to 2 wounds and T5. If you're taking them for melee, bikes are likely the best method in terms of crunch just because they gain both mobility and durability. Using them as a replacement for a squad of combis or special weapons in lieu of Sternguard (as Sternguard lose their 30" range -2 AP bolters for swapping) is likely the best choice, and they can even share a Drop Pod with another small unit (of more vets or a character like the Emperor's Champion who wants to get up close and personal with the enemy) to sow chaos as soon as turn 1 if needed.
✠ Find room for an Ancient in your lists. Not only do they buff your Ld, they give your models a chance to fight when killed. On a 4+ a model who is slain within 6" of a banner gets to punch or shoot (as appropiate) one last time before going down (Bonus points if you have an Apothecary to try and bring the guy back on a 4+ the next turn too). Basically if you want a big unit, you,ll probably want one of these banners near it (or wrapped protectively by said unit) as it will let your models go down swinging and potentially taking their killer with them.
✠ The Emperor's Champion is basically a special character version of the Chapter Champion. Same base stats and the Chapter Champ gets rerolls against characters as well. Perhaps a cheaper alternative for smaller games?
✠ Just a reminder, because I forgot about this before, but most of the Razorback's options are twin linked, meaning double the shots. Twin Assault Cannons on one are going to shoot 12 S6, -1AP, D1 shots. Plus the Stormbolter shots. While not the level of the LRC, it's a cheaper option for your MSU style squads (for example: If you're running Company Vets in a tank, this is probably the best way to go if you're trying to keep points costs down). TL Heavy Flamers might be the shortest range turret option, but with them being Assault enjoy advancing and burninating with no penalites. You won't be as fast as a Baal Rhino chassis, but you will have to less problems with glitter mysteriously ending up on your armour.
✠ For those who like keeping Devastators in their lists, rejoice for mixed weapons no longer prevent you from being useful. Mix it up for a cheaper unit that can handle more threats. My preference is no more than 2 kinds of weapons, but monobuilds are still good since you can split fire to prevent overkilling things. Plus Plasma cannons don't suck anymore.
✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.
✠ Vindicators are still beastly weapons with S10, -3AP and D6 damage, but they only fire D3 shots against units of 4 or less and D6 against units of 5 or more. While I understand the change as a means to keep players from running it as our dedicated tank killer, frankly with that profile it feels like it works better against tanks and MCs than it does flushing out hordes like it used to. Due to points and FOC changes, I expect less of these to end up on the table at a time and instead be supported by other options.
Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost
KurtAngle2 wrote: Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost
Scouts used to be 10 points, they went up to 11 in the new edition.
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Desubot wrote: Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
A lot of the special characters have gotten suspiciously cheaper when compared to their generic counterparts.
Not sure what to think about it yet. Perhaps a trade off for them being the source of CT like rules at the moment and the fact we're locked to only 1 of each keeps us spamming them like we can the generic ones?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost
Scouts used to be 10 points, they went up to 11 in the new edition.
Aye but the bikers are 75 for 3, coming with an extra attack (combat knife), T5, 2w, TL-Boltguns and Shotguns for 6 shots S4, each, @ >12" and moving 14" a turn.
That's pretty sweet.
ClockworkZion wrote: ✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.
I think your math might be off I got 134pts for the TFC. For me it loses out easily to the Castallen Launcher Whirlwind. At 115pts it's 72" S6 2d6 shots has been nothing short of amazing so far. Especially if you can tie your enemy up on the forefront, these babies just stand back and rock units/light vehicles.
Desubot wrote: Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
it's because he has no shooting whatsoever.
Neither does a THSS captain in terminator armor.
anyway i think clock might be right. its probably opportunity discount.
But TH/SS could have taken a shooting weapon, while Lysander could not. I think the prevailing wisdom seems to be that locked wargear choices get a discount. Which makes sense, if you think about it. And, like Clock said, Chapter Tactics will eventually restrict that even more. Want the cool ability from the Iron Hands? Well, no Lysander for you.
ClockworkZion wrote: Characters can,t do anything from inside a transport without bespoke rules like the Chimera,s command vehicle rule that allows Officers to issue orders from their vehicle.
Chimeras don't have that bespoke rule in 8E anymore, so no love there. Of course your main point, that characters can't do anything inside vehicles without bespoke rules that allow it, stands.
ClockworkZion wrote: ✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.
I think your math might be off I got 134pts for the TFC. For me it loses out easily to the Castallen Launcher Whirlwind. At 115pts it's 72" S6 2d6 shots has been nothing short of amazing so far. Especially if you can tie your enemy up on the forefront, these babies just stand back and rock units/light vehicles.
Ah, I missed that you pay twice for the TFC.
A lot of Black Templar players have traditionally latched onto the TFC because outside of the LRC many don't see mech options as really in line with the nature of the chapter, hence my focus on it here.
ClockworkZion wrote: Characters can,t do anything from inside a transport without bespoke rules like the Chimera,s command vehicle rule that allows Officers to issue orders from their vehicle.
Chimeras don't have that bespoke rule in 8E anymore, so no love there. Of course your main point, that characters can't do anything inside vehicles without bespoke rules that allow it, stands.
Thanks for the update. I'll have to keep that in mind!
Desubot wrote: Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
it's because he has no shooting whatsoever.
Neither does a THSS captain in terminator armor.
anyway i think clock might be right. its probably opportunity discount.
But TH/SS could have taken a shooting weapon, while Lysander could not. I think the prevailing wisdom seems to be that locked wargear choices get a discount. Which makes sense, if you think about it. And, like Clock said, Chapter Tactics will eventually restrict that even more. Want the cool ability from the Iron Hands? Well, no Lysander for you.
I'm pretty sure that the cost of the ranged weapons is reflected in the cost of the weapons, not the models.
Also only shooting I know of for that kind of Captain would be a Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher. Which is an okay choice honestly.
I actually think the codexes might increase the cost of Special Characters a bit, but right now most of them are a source of rules that are like quasi-Chapter Tactics: just enough to flavor your army, but not enough to actually drastically change things. That said, since they are a lot more restricted, the low points cost may influence people into buying them since less people can actually field them now.
Has anyone gotten to check out a tactical terminator squad? With new deep strike, an AC cannon squad coming down has 16 bolter shots and 6 AC shots, and then a potential chance to charge if need be. It's expensive, but it seems like a fair amount of firepower right where you need it, when you need it.
Hashbeth wrote: Has anyone gotten to check out a tactical terminator squad? With new deep strike, an AC cannon squad coming down has 16 bolter shots and 6 AC shots, and then a potential chance to charge if need be. It's expensive, but it seems like a fair amount of firepower right where you need it, when you need it.
It's... uh... not really
Too many points for what they do.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Jangus wrote: I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
There's already been a leak (Was it a leak or an announcement?) of a grav tank transport sometime in the future.
I mean, I'd legitimately urge people to hold off buying new models until the actual codex comes out and all the options are revealed. Unless you really dig the models and want to paint them up, then go for it.
Do we have any idea when the codex is coming out? I was really looking forward to roasting some nid bugs haha
Oh lord just looked up that grav tank and eugh; I don't know how I feel about floating SM tanks. I just want to drop pod them, is that too much to ask?
honestly, from a logistics POV those repulsor tanks are better, assuming you can drop them from orbit you address some of the biggest theatre delivery problems of the Astartes. the twin problems being drop podded marines are hoofing it and have no transportation, the other being deploying vehicles to the battlefield ,a transport thunderhawk can carry eaither a single land raider or two rhino sized vehicles. if you assume a a fairly typical mechanzied demi company deployment, of 3 tac squads, a devestator squad, an assault squad, 1 terminator and 1 scout squad. backed up by ohh a single predator, you're looking at 4 rhinos, and possiably a land raider, and land speeder storm. that's 4 rhinos a land raider. a land speeder and a predator, which'll need more then 3 thunderhawks to deliver at once.
this is a bit of a problem, if you take the "14 gunships" in 6th edition's space Marine codex for the Ultramarines to imply rthe Ultramarines chapter only HAS 14 thunderhawks.
a transport tank that can be deployed from orbit solves a number of problems etc once.
Does a tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Well yeah... 75 points per dude. Bloody hell. I really like the models and would like to field a lot of them, but it just doesn't seem like worth it. Has anyone done any math hammering to see how bad this unit is? I really hope that my gut reaction is off, and they're somehow secretly amazing.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Well yeah... 75 points per dude. Bloody hell. I really like the models and would like to field a lot of them, but it just doesn't seem like worth it. Has anyone done any math hammering to see how bad this unit is? I really hope that my get reaction is off, and they're somehow secretly amazing.
their ability to deep strike in, and lay down heavy infantry killing power makes me wonder how effective they'll be as head hunters. a lotta armies are likely to have a gunline with a HQ behind it providing re-rolls and other buffs. Inceptors might be able to drop behind that line, and put the HQ down removing leadership buffs. heck this might be partiuclarly effective at dealing with guard or Tyranids. hows that mathhammer out? is it possiable to drop say.. a space marine ancient in a turn? what about a Space Marine Captain? a Guard Commissar?
their ability to deep strike in, and lay down heavy infantry killing power makes me wonder how effective they'll be as head hunters. a lotta armies are likely to have a gunline with a HQ behind it providing re-rolls and other buffs. Inceptors might be able to drop behind that line, and put the HQ down removing leadership buffs. heck this might be partiuclarly effective at dealing with guard or Tyranids. hows that mathhammer out? is it possiable to drop say.. a space marine ancient in a turn? what about a Space Marine Captain? a Guard Commissar?
it is pretty easy to bubblewrap characters and deny good deep strike spots, so I don't think this will be a terribly effective strategy.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
Wouldn't Combi-Plasmas be better? You will be >9" out of the pod so melts will be just regular profile. Plasma would be in rapid fire range.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
Wouldn't Combi-Plasmas be better? You will be >9" out of the pod so melts will be just regular profile. Plasma would be in rapid fire range.
Id say it depends on the target.
at 2 damage when fully commited with over charge you really wont get much value out of it against something like a tank. would be fine to not overcharge to knock out a bunch of back field heavy weapon squads or even terminators (?).
skybax wrote: What do you think is the best non-named space marine character for this edition? Naked vanilla captain, or something else?
Rerolling 1s from captain is a really nice all rounder. Chaplain next to assault marines is also really nice. Libs are tactically flexible and smite is really versatile. techmarines are only really useful with tanks but they are no joke in combat. lieutenants are also very nice all rounder.
i think it really does depend on what you are running but there are no real obvious choices. dunno what to think of the vehicle HQs though
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
I'd have to check again, but I think the new Sternguard are capped to two special or combis in a squad.
On the otherhand, a squad of Company Vets can go full combi.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
I'd have to check again, but I think the new Sternguard are capped to two special or combis in a squad.
On the otherhand, a squad of Company Vets can go full combi.
Last line lets any of them replace with a combi weapon.
its redundant because the line before it also says you can take items from the combi list.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Well yeah... 75 points per dude. Bloody hell. I really like the models and would like to field a lot of them, but it just doesn't seem like worth it. Has anyone done any math hammering to see how bad this unit is? I really hope that my gut reaction is off, and they're somehow secretly amazing.
I mathed it to roughly 5 to 6 genestealers killed when they drop in. Which, uh, isn't worth the cost D:
GreatGranpapy wrote: Does tactical squad with a melta and a combi-melta look like one of the better uses for a drop pod? Trying to figure out what to do with the drop pod that I have. Might get a box of Sternguard if they're better.
Combi-Melta Sternguard seem like one of the better Drop Pod units. I am going to do 5x Combi-Melta and 5x Special Issue Boltguns that will combat squad so they can deal with separate things.
I'd have to check again, but I think the new Sternguard are capped to two special or combis in a squad.
On the otherhand, a squad of Company Vets can go full combi.
Last line lets any of them replace with a combi weapon.
its redundant because the line before it also says you can take items from the combi list.
Special weapons and heavy flamers are locked at 2
Ah, that's why I forgot about it. A bit silly really, but sure.
That said, with the special issue ammo being lost when you take combis, I'd rather just run them as special ammo users. Keeps them cheaper and anything with a 5+ or worse doesn't get armour against their guns anyways.
Basically the role I see for them is more Elite Horde thinners.
Dunno at -2 that will force marines into 5+s, terminators in into a 4+
losing a terminator... well half a terminator on a 50/50 is pretty big.
and with a weight of fire can often net you a pretty good amount of kills. (it does kinda forces them into one roll, anti infantry. you could double down with the heavy flamer though the range wont let you drop out of a pod to use it besides overwatch. i think you could split their effectiveness with combi meltas as a way of opening up anti vehicle/MC while with the bolter side against chaff)
Desubot wrote: Dunno at -2 that will force marines into 5+s, terminators in into a 4+
losing a terminator... well half a terminator on a 50/50 is pretty big.
and with a weight of fire can often net you a pretty good amount of kills. (it does kinda forces them into one roll, anti infantry. you could double down with the heavy flamer though the range wont let you drop out of a pod to use it besides overwatch. i think you could split their effectiveness with combi meltas as a way of opening up anti vehicle/MC while with the bolter side against chaff)
I am thinking of doing just that. Having a squad of 10 that combat Squads to deal with different stuff. 5 go after vehicles and really big stuffwith Combi-Meltas, 5 go after infantry with SI Boltguns. I am going to have another squad of 10 that does the same thing, but it will be with 5 Combi-Plasma going after monsters and heavy infantry, while the other 5 go after infantry.
skybax wrote: What do you think is the best non-named space marine character for this edition? Naked vanilla captain, or something else?
I like the Vanilla captain personally. Toss him in with plasma guns and you're supercharging like nobody's business.
Chaplain is better than captain in supporting a cc though, but I'd only run him if the squad he's supporting is ONLY rocking cc weapons (or bolt pistols & cc weapons) because if you have plasma pistols & cc weapons then the captain is better as he benefits both, and has better stats.
Lieutenant seems like he might be good to toss in beside a captain, to give a squad rerolls on hits & wounds. Maybe with a squad of Heavy Bolters he'd be decent, letting them reroll wounds since they only have s5. But otherwise, I think Captain is better as well.
Librarians I couldn't tell you since I'm not into the psychic stuff.
In my list I'm running 2 captains, 1 of them with a jump pack.
Desubot wrote: Dunno at -2 that will force marines into 5+s, terminators in into a 4+
losing a terminator... well half a terminator on a 50/50 is pretty big.
and with a weight of fire can often net you a pretty good amount of kills. (it does kinda forces them into one roll, anti infantry. you could double down with the heavy flamer though the range wont let you drop out of a pod to use it besides overwatch. i think you could split their effectiveness with combi meltas as a way of opening up anti vehicle/MC while with the bolter side against chaff)
Heavy Flamers are A good coice if they pod in or have a transport I think, if they walk or are static rear guard then just their bolters is likely the best choice.
And yeah, they feel like the dedicated anti infantry unit, at least in small numbers. Splitting focus is something I'd only consider in large nunbers and then I'd likely combat squad just so they can focus better on their roles. I know split fire is a thing, but splitting them into units means if the anti armour guys are at work, the anti infantry guys don't have to designate targets until after you crack the transport.
Probably play that rule by ear though for when you fight Nids or armies who have MCs but no vehicles.
I feel like Orks, Nids or even Chaos will out CC us handily. You still want transports, though you lose 3" of movement from before when you had transports.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Well yeah... 75 points per dude. Bloody hell. I really like the models and would like to field a lot of them, but it just doesn't seem like worth it. Has anyone done any math hammering to see how bad this unit is? I really hope that my gut reaction is off, and they're somehow secretly amazing.
Inceptors offer a pretty unique capability for SMs (basically Crisis Suits), but their guns are extremely overpriced. 15 points for what amounts to a half range heavy bolter just isn't worth it, since a normal heavy bolter costs 10 - while Assault 3 is cool and all I don't think the points add up. Compare to heavy bolters, assault cannons, or even just normal special weapons.
My hope is once the real model kit comes out there will be some alternate weapon options which aren't as overpriced, though I'm still a little worried about the core statline given the number of lascannons I think we're likely to see in this edition.
Same with the inceptor squad too sadly, and I was hoping they'd be the big winners of the primaris group.
Well yeah... 75 points per dude. Bloody hell. I really like the models and would like to field a lot of them, but it just doesn't seem like worth it. Has anyone done any math hammering to see how bad this unit is? I really hope that my gut reaction is off, and they're somehow secretly amazing.
Inceptors offer a pretty unique capability for SMs (basically Crisis Suits), but their guns are extremely overpriced. 15 points for what amounts to a half range heavy bolter just isn't worth it, since a normal heavy bolter costs 10 - while Assault 3 is cool and all I don't think the points add up. Compare to heavy bolters, assault cannons, or even just normal special weapons.
My hope is once the real model kit comes out there will be some alternate weapon options which aren't as overpriced, though I'm still a little worried about the core statline given the number of lascannons I think we're likely to see in this edition.
Inceptors don't kill enough units to be worth it pretty much ever. The SM army can no longer do a mass in your face drop in that well, so Inceptors will end up fairly isolated and dead rapidly. It's a 3 man unit that hits 225 points, that will die pretty much immediately after it comes down, so it has to make those points back FAST. And it simply doesn't. The units its guns are made to kill are cheap and multiple and killing 10 ork boyz in a turn isn't going to justify the expense when the remaining 20 boyz beat their faces in.
Inceptors don't kill enough units to be worth it pretty much ever. The SM army can no longer do a mass in your face drop in that well, so Inceptors will end up fairly isolated and dead rapidly. It's a 3 man unit that hits 225 points, that will die pretty much immediately after it comes down, so it has to make those points back FAST. And it simply doesn't. The units its guns are made to kill are cheap and multiple and killing 10 ork boyz in a turn isn't going to justify the expense when the remaining 20 boyz beat their faces in.
Yeah... I think best targets would be infantry squads with really expensive weapons, such as lascannon devastators, but I still doubt they're worth it. They seem to be so absurdly overcosted in the index that it makes me wonder whether the starter box leaflet prices are ones we're supposed to use after all...
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So, as drop pods are now pretty expensive, what are people gonna use them for? I was thinking a bunch of honour guard (possibly a champion too) and an apotechary lead by Pedro Kantor. It is insanely expensive, but it would be quite killy thanks to the extra attacks and re-rolls Pedro grants, and the apotechary and the honour guard make sure that Pedro lives.
It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.
Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.
It's such a shame their SM Index price is so drastically more expensive than in the starter set (Literally over 60 points different), because at 159pts for 3 they would have been amazing.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: How is everyone feeling about close combat marines like black templars? are they way better now or still weak?
Weaker due to losing an attack, but better with their Special Characters. Helbrecht gives rerolls of all failed to hit rolls for Black Templar units in 6" and models in 6" get +1S, while Grimaldus gives rerolls to in the fight phase to Black Templar units in 6", and those said units get an extra attack for every 6 they roll in melee (new attacks can't give extra attacks though). Charge restrictions changing makes equipping the unit better as yo can take a wide array of options and not screw yourself over. Grimaldus' Servitors only let Black Templar units in 6" auto-pass their morale tests. Thankfully they're super cheap.
Ancients are a good addition to a Templar army due to giving the chance for slain models to go down fighting (getting to shoot or fight in melee again) even if they already fought this turn, so they're worth considering if you like the idea of extra attacks.
Personally I like the idea of a Crusader Squad with at least 4 Initiates, 5 Neophytes and a Sword Brethren. Give a three of the Neophytes Bolters, an Initiate a Heavy Weapon (like a Heavy Bolter, Multi-melta or Grav Cannon), give another a Plasma Gun if you plan on running him near a Captain or Helbrecht (or a melta or Flamer if you don't) and give the Sword Brethren a Thunder Hammer if you have the points, or a Power Weapon if you want him to be cheap. Plasma Pistol or Combi-weapon is optional. Everyone else gets Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. Basically you pull the Bolter Neophytes are you get closer to the enemy if you take casualties as their extra range is less useful once you get across the board, and use the Split Fire to help weaken targets with your heavy weapon, or use it to force more wounds on your targets before charging.
This is a unit that needs a Rhino or Land Raider (former if you go solo, latter if you want to bundle Characters with them) to get things done and to eat Overwatch when they want to charge. Drop Pods aren't a horrible idea to auickly fet stuck in, but are less useful after you land.
8th Edition encourages us to do as many wounds to a unit as we can per a turn to get Battleshock to go through and weaken the target units further, so we have to balance shooting and melee in our units and with the way the edition now works it's very possible to get use out of mixing weapon types. Running only Bolters on the Neophytes is also an option as they can be your fire support prior to getting stuck in. Alternatively Shotguns aren't a horrible choice if you deal with a lot of tougher armies as their strength bonus makes everything T4-5, and T8 easier to wound.
Overall, we lost a chunk of our attacks, but gained greater unit flexibility, and better synergy with our HQs.
Also, if the Emoeror,s Champion is fighting a character while in 6" of Helbrecht he's hitting like with 5 attacks that reroll hits and wounds at S8, -3AP and D3 damage per wound that gets through. If you mix in Grimaldus to that and his attacks Can spawn extra attacks, so it looks like even our HQs support each other well synergy wise.
Based on how the index is written, it sounds like Sternguard Veterans lose their special issue ammo when they switch to combi-weapons now, since they're exchanging their special issue bolter with a combi-bolter, and the "ammo" is no longer a rule ...is this correct?
wtwlf123 wrote: Based on how the index is written, it sounds like Sternguard Veterans lose their special issue ammo when they switch to combi-weapons now, since they're exchanging their special issue bolter with a combi-bolter, and the "ammo" is no longer a rule ...is this correct?
It is! Which is why I feel like the MSU Sternguard should only run their base load out or take Heavy Flamers and save the combis for larger units or units of Company Vets.
Hmm. I was looking at Sicarus and trying to think of way to use that fancy power of his. (Tac squads w/in 6" always strike first in HtH). One of my main issues with the Marines is the lack of cheap bubble wrap and susceptibility to getting your center board charged by HtH dudes.
What I'm thinking is Tac Squads (3-4) deployed in columns with a frontage of 2-3 models and deployed in close formation with each other. Like This...
XXX XXX XXX XXX
XXX XXX XXX XXX
XXX XXX XXX XXX
X X X X
This would mitigate for a lot of multi-charges from horde units like Orks, even a squad of 10 Berserkers can either mutli-charge or lose combat effectiveness by only getting into BtB with a handful of guys. Multi-Overwatch and first strike in HtH with +1 TH seems pretty fancy for one character's worth of buffs. If you add some CCW upgrades on the sergeants it starts to look doable.
One ML/Plasma Tac squad isn't that killy by itself, although if you add a combi-flamer and PW to the Sgt they'll frag about 4 MEQs or 6-7 Orks between OW and first-striking at +1TH. Multiply that by two or three because the enemy multi-charged and it looks pretty savage. If you go to two flamers the OW is a lot better, but at the loss of the rest of the Plasma shooting you can do in other rounds.
I like the idea of anchoring the sides of a formation like this with vehicles (Twin AC Razorbacks maybe). It an idea I'm going to keep playing with anyway. The Chaplain and/or Lieutenant would also up the effectiveness. Can anyone else think of ways to leverage this?
On a different note, has anyone played around with the combo of Cassius' Inspired Retribution Specail rule and the Astartes banner? Every FIght Phase Casualty get to strike again on a 4+ and then cause a mortal wound on a 6+. I don't know if it's efficeint, but it sounds like a real pain in the rear for the other guy.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.
Except they really weren't an Autoinclude?
I'm more confused as to what their role is. They basically have Rubric Ammo without any of the benefits of being Rubric Marines.
The only thing special they got going for them vs normal tac marines is that they can basically take a FULL squad of combi weapons. thats pretty much it. that and or mass ap2 bolters which is nothing to scoff at
wtwlf123 wrote: Based on how the index is written, it sounds like Sternguard Veterans lose their special issue ammo when they switch to combi-weapons now, since they're exchanging their special issue bolter with a combi-bolter, and the "ammo" is no longer a rule ...is this correct?
Correct. In my case, half of my two Squads take SI Boltguns, the other half take Combi. The Combi Plasma guys might be double firing most of the time.
Seeing how power weapons appear to be dirt cheap I think I'll give a lot of my sarges a power sword or something even if they already have a combi weapon or are in a Dev squad.
So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.
In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?
Cephalobeard wrote: It's such a shame their SM Index price is so drastically more expensive than in the starter set (Literally over 60 points different), because at 159pts for 3 they would have been amazing.
They'd still proooobly be too much by my math. Like, they kill 72 points worth of boyz or 60 to 72 points worth of genestealers when they pop down.
As a note 10 boyz is 60 points. Can you imagine armies of like 200 boyz with a couple warbosses?
It really does look like cheap assaulty units are king in this game because their statlines are all fething bonkers.
ClockworkZion wrote: So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.
In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?
The Chapter Ancient has absolutely zero choices for weapons. He has a Power Sword and Grenades. That is it. You are thinking of the Company Ancient, which is infinitely better anyway.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.
Since when? The cutting edge competitive SM lists were the assault squad/devastator formation or bikes bikes bikes bikes, both lists abusing grav to the hilt.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sternguard were basically an autochoice before, so naturally they lost some teeth.
Since when? The cutting edge competitive SM lists were the assault squad/devastator formation or bikes bikes bikes bikes, both lists abusing grav to the hilt.
I meant out of the Elites, especially between them and the Vanguard Vets. Among certain Imperial Fist builds especially.
I guess among the huge tournament scene it was less so though.
ClockworkZion wrote: So the Chapter Ancient has a fair number of options and I can decide what looks to be a good fit for Templars. He has a Bolt Pistol standard but can swap it for Pistols, combis or Melee Weapons. With his role best fit sticking near Grimaldus (to buff Grimaldus, leadership bubble) and Helbrecht (mostly for benefiting from Crusade of Wrath to buff his Strength for when he inevitably gets stuck in I've been having trouble figuring out what wargear to give him.
In a more ranged oriented army I'd be looking at combis or pistols, but I almost want to give him something melee focused to benefit his role near the front lines. Any ideas?
The Chapter Ancient has absolutely zero choices for weapons. He has a Power Sword and Grenades. That is it. You are thinking of the Company Ancient, which is infinitely better anyway.
Well, you don't really want the Ancient in combat do you? I don't think I do. I want him hanging out buffing leadership and letting guys who get gakked take another swing. Maybe a plasma pistol. He can add a wound here or there at shot range or, in extremis, on the charge, and it doesn't cost much. Power weapons are also good, and cheap. I don't think I'm buying him expensive toys though.
Fenris-77 wrote: Well, you don't really want the Ancient in combat do you? I don't think I do. I want him hanging out buffing leadership and letting guys who get gakked take another swing. Maybe a plasma pistol. He can add a wound here or there at shot range or, in extremis, on the charge, and it doesn't cost much. Power weapons are also good, and cheap. I don't think I'm buying him expensive toys though.
I don't really want him in combat, but expect him to get sucked in since he'll still need to be near the front to be effective. Especailly for Te,plars who seem geared towards being more aggressive than standard Marines with their Crusader Squad options and Special Character buffs.
That said, a cheap Plasma Pistol is likely a good choice, especially if he's getting Helbrecht's re-roll failed to-hit rolls buff.
Actually with that reroll a combi weapon almost sounds more helpful since it means getting to hit more. But in the mindset of keepingnupgrades cheap, maybe just a Storm Bolter for the maximum basic plinking? I mean they're only 2 points.
Plasma pistol and power sword together is only 11 points (or the axe for 12, whatever), cheaper than almost all the combi weapons alone. Cheap and gets you both shooting and HtH buffs. That works for me.
Barring that, yeah, I'd spend the 2pts on a Stormbolter. Why not?
ultimentra wrote: It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.
Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.
I am starting to wonder if a 5-man Tactical Squad is better off taking a Combi Flamer and Flamer than the other Special Weapon combinations. I already do this with my Blood Angels, but perhaps it would be a good idea with my Crimson Fists. I already have Sternguard toting 5 Combi Plasma and 5 Combi Melta (and 2x5 more that have SI Boltguns), so maybe a little horde protection would be better than more Plasma. Thoughts?
Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.
Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.
ultimentra wrote: It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.
Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.
So can Assault Centurions if you keep the assault launchers. Put them and an Ironclad in a Storm Raven for maximum effect.
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GreatGranpapy wrote: Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.
Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.
Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcher seems to be the best long range load out if you're just looking to pop some stuff at range, but if you want to keep the Dreadnough CCW then I would consider either the Lascannon or Plasma Cannon since they have long range and don't push you to get closer to the enemy.
ultimentra wrote: It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.
Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.
So can Assault Centurions if you keep the assault launchers. Put them and an Ironclad in a Storm Raven for maximum effect.
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GreatGranpapy wrote: Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.
Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.
Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcher seems to be the best long range load out if you're just looking to pop some stuff at range, but if you want to keep the Dreadnough CCW then I would consider either the Lascannon or Plasma Cannon since they have long range and don't push you to get closer to the enemy.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.
Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.
If standing still Quad Autocannon is a great loadout for a venerable as it gets eight shots on a 2+, with some flexibility for targeting viability between the range, bit of rend and reliable 2 damage per shot.
Las I'd personally leave until the forge world index comes out and you can get a quad las Mortis dread.
Personally for mixed role I'd go with a dual bolter or autocannon. At the cheaper end of options, pretty flexible and good fire rate.
I found an Ironclad I once started to build and I'm gonna finish building him. I think I'll go with a chainfist, hurricane bolter and heavy flamer, so he can footslog across the field and pew-pew with the bolter.
Crimson wrote: I found an Ironclad I once started to build and I'm gonna finish building him. I think I'll go with a chainfist, hurricane bolter and heavy flamer, so he can footslog across the field and pew-pew with the bolter.
Hmm well hurricane bolters don't seem very good, but on the other hand the Ironclad seems kind of a weak link in the Dreadnought family for costing quite a bit more whilst being melee focused and not coming with the enhanced movement of a contemptor or Blood Angels dread.
I run a pure dreadnought gimmick list in 7th, waiting for the forge world index to see all my options to update it but I have been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking I might have to go mixed chapter to get it to work.
Hmm well hurricane bolters don't seem very good, but on the other hand the Ironclad seems kind of a weak link in the Dreadnought family for costing quite a bit more whilst being melee focused and not coming with the enhanced movement of a contemptor or Blood Angels dread.
It is not very good, but then again, re-rolling ones with extra CCW is not terribly good either, especially as there are other ways to grant those re-rolls. And it is not heavy weapon, so at least it is not penalised for moving and shooting. Besides as I have no way to transport the dread, as they no longer can go into pods and I don't have a Stormraven, the poor bastard has to footslog, so at least he can offer some fire support while doing so.
Depending on your opponents its actualy very nice to walk him behind a rhino or sneak through terrain as a mid board assault threat. you do not want to get into combat with an ironclad.
foot slogging can be ok but yeah it sucks it doesn't really do much outside of 12"
ultimentra wrote: It's a shame that Inceptors are so expensive, because they are one of only 3 ways to get mortal wounds in a SM list. The other two are Assault Centurions and charging with a Land Raider, unless Guilliman has the ability to do it.
Or psychic powers. Which really there is not a lot you can put in a SM list to help deal mortal wounds with this in mind. I don't think a lot of people are going to take Assault Centurions, nor are they going to take Inceptors now because they will definitely get focused down.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts can put out Mortal Wounds on the charge as well.
So can Assault Centurions if you keep the assault launchers. Put them and an Ironclad in a Storm Raven for maximum effect.
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GreatGranpapy wrote: Probably not the most efficient thing but I think I'll try out 10-man Tac squads and split them up into the Sarge w/combi + special weapon group and the missile launcher group. I've only just started building a Space Marine army so I need the points where I can make them.
Anyone know what they want to kit out a Venerable Dread with? I'm thinking of having with some shooty stuff but keeping the Dreadnought combat weapon and have it babysit a couple of Dev squads in my back line and act as a reactionary charge unit if I need it to.
Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcher seems to be the best long range load out if you're just looking to pop some stuff at range, but if you want to keep the Dreadnough CCW then I would consider either the Lascannon or Plasma Cannon since they have long range and don't push you to get closer to the enemy.
until it gets blown out of the sky
a friend of mine tried that and got wasted T1
we all had a laugh.
True, it has that risk, but in terms of options to get those slow moving melee units into combats it's a solid one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ironclads are unfortunately very short ranged. And while the Hurricane Bolter is greatly buffed this edition, it's definitely not a strong gun unless you're attempting to drown the enemy in bullets.
Which is a viable tactics for certain Marine builds.
I've been a long standing fan of the Ironclad, but haven't seen a way to make them viable. They're too slow to footslog effectively, lack effective ranged options outside of Hunter Killer missiles.
If you're running a large tank like a Land Raider, it can help shield him from the opponent while the Ironclad acts as a countercharge unit, but with a movement difference of 8" the Ironclad will need to do a lot of advancing while the tank puts along so he can keep up.
Contemptor Dreadnought with Kheres Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Combi Bolter comes out to 165 points.
An Ironclad with a Hurricane Bolter and Dreadnought Chainfist comes out to 170.
Someone should check my math on those, but they are fairly close in point cost. Pros? Cons? I tried the Contemptor in my first game, and he didn't last long even with an invuln. The degrading profile meant that after he got lit up turn 1 he was moving very slowly. The Kheres is also not what it used to be, kind of weak weapon now.
Crimson wrote: I found an Ironclad I once started to build and I'm gonna finish building him. I think I'll go with a chainfist, hurricane bolter and heavy flamer, so he can footslog across the field and pew-pew with the bolter.
Hmm well hurricane bolters don't seem very good, but on the other hand the Ironclad seems kind of a weak link in the Dreadnought family for costing quite a bit more whilst being melee focused and not coming with the enhanced movement of a contemptor or Blood Angels dread.
I run a pure dreadnought gimmick list in 7th, waiting for the forge world index to see all my options to update it but I have been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking I might have to go mixed chapter to get it to work.
The role I envision for Ironclad is sitting/walking behind other units as a counter charge hammer. It's not bad at punching out Monsters, as swinging first with 4 S12 attacks, doing 5 wounds seems like a solid way to punch something right out. 2 HK missiles and a melta gun to chisel a few wounds at range. Of course price is the main issue. Being over 200 points sucks though.
I've been hammering out the cost of some of my vehicles and units....hot damn those points increases.
Stormraven = 303 with Assault cannons and multi-melta
Ironclad = 214 with 2 HK missiles, seismic hammer, meltagun and heavy flamer.
Land Raider = 356 for a stock god hammer!?
3 Attack bikes with multi-meltas is 216.
What is an army even going to look like at 2000 points?
Crimson wrote: I found an Ironclad I once started to build and I'm gonna finish building him. I think I'll go with a chainfist, hurricane bolter and heavy flamer, so he can footslog across the field and pew-pew with the bolter.
Hmm well hurricane bolters don't seem very good, but on the other hand the Ironclad seems kind of a weak link in the Dreadnought family for costing quite a bit more whilst being melee focused and not coming with the enhanced movement of a contemptor or Blood Angels dread.
I run a pure dreadnought gimmick list in 7th, waiting for the forge world index to see all my options to update it but I have been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking I might have to go mixed chapter to get it to work.
The role I envision for Ironclad is sitting/walking behind other units as a counter charge hammer. It's not bad at punching out Monsters, as swinging first with 4 S12 attacks, doing 5 wounds seems like a solid way to punch something right out. 2 HK missiles and a melta gun to chisel a few wounds at range. Of course price is the main issue. Being over 200 points sucks though.
I've been hammering out the cost of some of my vehicles and units....hot damn those points increases.
Stormraven = 303 with Assault cannons and multi-melta Ironclad = 214 with 2 HK missiles, seismic hammer, meltagun and heavy flamer. Land Raider = 356 for a stock god hammer!? 3 Attack bikes with multi-meltas is 216.
What is an army even going to look like at 2000 points?
Asides from the carnifex almost everyones big punchy things are about 200 points.
at 2k points i took 2 twin las razor backs 2 tac squads and a sniper scout, a butt load of THSS Terminators, 10 man assault, 5man las devs, a TFC lysander and a lieutenant. with pretty much all the fixins.
Looking at Power Weapons (for the cheaper chop), Power Axes look generally better unless you're running a Company Veteran squad near Helbrecht then Swords seem better as they negate anything with a 4+ armour or worse and wound anything T4 and down on 3s vs the Axe wounding T4 and down on 3s but only negating anything with a 5+ armour or worse.
ultimentra wrote: Contemptor Dreadnought with Kheres Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Combat Weapon, Combi Bolter comes out to 165 points.
An Ironclad with a Hurricane Bolter and Dreadnought Chainfist comes out to 170.
Someone should check my math on those, but they are fairly close in point cost. Pros? Cons? I tried the Contemptor in my first game, and he didn't last long even with an invuln. The degrading profile meant that after he got lit up turn 1 he was moving very slowly. The Kheres is also not what it used to be, kind of weak weapon now.
Contemptor is faster, first degradation layer only makes it the same speed, needs to be at 1-2 wounds to be slower. Speed is really important on an assault unit, will matter less when we get the Mortis variant.
Extra wounds plus an invulnerable will usually but not always make it a bit more durable than higher toughness will.
+1 strength isn't as good an upgrade over the regular assault cannon as +2 shots used to be, I'd agree. I'd have preferred -1 additional rend if they were going to take the improving quality of shot rather than quantity route.
Lets not forget about a BS and WS of 2+. Hopefully FW will give us some better weapon options. I personally would love to see the Galatus get stats but that's probably a pipe dream.
Also, what are your guys thoughts on the Thunderfire Cannon? About 130 points with everything for the Techmarine Gunner. To me it looks rather weak. Maybe I'm missing something?
ultimentra wrote: Lets not forget about a BS and WS of 2+. Hopefully FW will give us some better weapon options. I personally would love to see the Galatus get stats but that's probably a pipe dream.
Also, what are your guys thoughts on the Thunderfire Cannon? About 130 points with everything for the Techmarine Gunner. To me it looks rather weak. Maybe I'm missing something?
ultimentra wrote: Lets not forget about a BS and WS of 2+. Hopefully FW will give us some better weapon options. I personally would love to see the Galatus get stats but that's probably a pipe dream.
Also, what are your guys thoughts on the Thunderfire Cannon? About 130 points with everything for the Techmarine Gunner. To me it looks rather weak. Maybe I'm missing something?
If they release rules for the Galatus I will 100% use it as an excuse to start a Custodes force. No shame, no questions asked.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Well...what kind of army are you looking to play?
Generally the army is looking more balanced, and while there are some weaker choices, there aren't a lot of things you really need to run unless you're building to a theme (Ultramarines so you get Guilliman for example).
Hmmmmm then I think this thread will only be able to speak to the BT portion of your force with any level of accuracy, and even then I'm no expert of the Crusaders so I'll leave that to the others to advise.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
Yep, shooting shooting. Problem is that Tyranids are so blazingly fast that it is actually hard to get into even 12 inch range to double tap for nid assault units
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
I disagree, I believe Vangaurd Vets with chainssword do a fairly good job, especially with storm shield for a cheap 5pts a pop. A chaplin lets you reroll all your failed hits and a Librarian can give you unit +1S/T/A, this will let you kill hordes of guys easily.
I haven't had the chance to have a good look at the Index yet, can you guys give me your first impressions on some of the units in the army I've started?
Basically I'm making an Iron Hands dreadnaught heavy army. The core is a couple of Techmarines on bikes with minimum bike squad bodyguards, a handful of scouts (either snipers or in storms), and as many dreadnaughts I can cram in.
So yeah, Techmarines, Bikes, Scouts and the different Dreadnaught variants, how do they look to you?
How does the Techmarines repair and fortify mechanics function now?
Does taking a HQ on a bike give me access to Troop bikes still?
How valuable will Scout snipers be? (I'm thinking taking out key special/heavy weapons)
Having read through this thread now, I'm loving that a servo harness Techmarine on a bike can shoot everything! I'm just imagining what that'd look like IRL. So cool!
It sucks that Ironclads are so expensive, and that Kheres cannons aren't that much better than standard assault cannons.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
I disagree, I believe Vangaurd Vets with chainssword do a fairly good job, especially with storm shield for a cheap 5pts a pop. A chaplin lets you reroll all your failed hits and a Librarian can give you unit +1S/T/A, this will let you kill hordes of guys easily.
Librarian doesnt give an entire unit +1 S/T/A, just a character.
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the_Jakman wrote: I haven't had the chance to have a good look at the Index yet, can you guys give me your first impressions on some of the units in the army I've started?
Basically I'm making an Iron Hands dreadnaught heavy army. The core is a couple of Techmarines on bikes with minimum bike squad bodyguards, a handful of scouts (either snipers or in storms), and as many dreadnaughts I can cram in.
So yeah, Techmarines, Bikes, Scouts and the different Dreadnaught variants, how do they look to you?
How does the Techmarines repair and fortify mechanics function now?
Does taking a HQ on a bike give me access to Troop bikes still?
How valuable will Scout snipers be? (I'm thinking taking out key special/heavy weapons)
Having read through this thread now, I'm loving that a servo harness Techmarine on a bike can shoot everything! I'm just imagining what that'd look like IRL. So cool!
It sucks that Ironclads are so expensive, and that Kheres cannons aren't that much better than standard assault cannons.
Cheers guys.
1: Dreads are alright, and Ironclads are one of the few units we have that can dish out mortal wounds on the charge. However, all dreadnoughts are slow, so without Stormravens to ferry them around, they dont do much for CC. Ymmv, of course,
2: they repair D3 wounds on vehicles now, and dont have any form of cover boosting anymore. You dont need servo arms to repair vehicles anymore.
3: No. but there are FOCs that let you take 3-6 Fast Attack, or Elites, or Heavies, rather than taking troops. No more troop bikes for Marines so far. You can skip scouts if you want now, and just load up on dreadnoughts.
4: Snipers can no longer pick models in units to put wounds on, however they can target characters behind units. independent characters no longer can join units, but cant normally be targetted unless they're the closest target.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
I disagree, I believe Vangaurd Vets with chainssword do a fairly good job, especially with storm shield for a cheap 5pts a pop. A chaplin lets you reroll all your failed hits and a Librarian can give you unit +1S/T/A, this will let you kill hordes of guys easily.
Have you mathed it? I like mathing verse Genestealers (As the unit I think is the best) and ork boyz
Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
So there is SOME choppy, but don't expect it to take down the biggest things through melee, just tear through hordes like a blender full of Rippers set to "puree".
As they should, its 20 genestealers. I think it will be important to identify the cheapest source of high volume of fire shots and I believe it will be a mix of heavy bolters and twin assault cannons. Assault cannons are good because they wound t3 on 2s. Heavy bolters are good because they come on cheaper platforms.
Median Trace wrote: Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
If it takes twenty models to kill units of ten, then I'm okay with this.
Median Trace wrote: Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
If it takes twenty models to kill units of ten, then I'm okay with this.
How many points each unit costs is what is important to me. Ork Boyz hordes and Gaunt or Stealer blobs have me worried because they are dirt cheap.
Median Trace wrote: Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
If it takes twenty models to kill units of ten, then I'm okay with this.
How many points each unit costs is what is important to me. Ork Boyz hordes and Gaunt or Stealer blobs have me worried because they are dirt cheap.
According to some sources regarding the play testing, new points are an internal balance for an army, not an external one between armies, so equivalent points doesn't mean much to me at this point.
Median Trace wrote: Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
If it takes twenty models to kill units of ten, then I'm okay with this.
How many points each unit costs is what is important to me. Ork Boyz hordes and Gaunt or Stealer blobs have me worried because they are dirt cheap.
According to some sources regarding the play testing, new points are an internal balance for an army, not an external one between armies, so equivalent points doesn't mean much to me at this point.
It is how the game plays though.
Nids are scary strong. They have all the bases covered, with things other armies can't do
Median Trace wrote: Most Space Marine units are going to die to a round of a 20-strong genestealer assault. Screening units will be important. I think the dual heavy flamer land speeder might be a great tool against this types of horde units.
If it takes twenty models to kill units of ten, then I'm okay with this.
How many points each unit costs is what is important to me. Ork Boyz hordes and Gaunt or Stealer blobs have me worried because they are dirt cheap.
According to some sources regarding the play testing, new points are an internal balance for an army, not an external one between armies, so equivalent points doesn't mean much to me at this point.
It is how the game plays though.
Nids are scary strong. They have all the bases covered, with things other armies can't do
They look balanced. Their units are pretty much based around to being dedicated to single tasks. Biggest buff they got is how fast they are. Playing against them is a lot like the lore honestly.
Honestly most of the nids and the orks strength comes from people not having to play or design around hordes for nearly 10 years or more. Once we get used to hordes again it will be a different animal.
Also we need to rethink our thinking. I am shifting to a focus on "which weapons I want" and "best way to deliver those weapons/the chassis"
So I am looking at twin assault cannons as a solid weapon to have good volume of fire and would be helpful at clearing out horde models,
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
So there is SOME choppy, but don't expect it to take down the biggest things through melee, just tear through hordes like a blender full of Rippers set to "puree".
Crazyterran wrote: So, Aura effects also affect the model that brings the Aura, right?
So does Guilliman reroll hits and wounds?
With the rules as written, he certainly does
GW has confirmed it. He's an Ultramarine, so he benefits from his own rule.
When I did my quick napkin math, I didn't realize you could double up on chainswords. But even then with Grimaldus and double chainswords, they die in one round of attacks to the 20-man genestealer blob. I believe the genestealer blob is only 220 points.
They look balanced. Their units are pretty much based around to being dedicated to single tasks. Biggest buff they got is how fast they are. Playing against them is a lot like the lore honestly.
Specialized units do better than generalists. Especially since speed means they minimize drastically the time where their melee specialists are not in their preferred environment. Space marines alone I don't think can beat a well balanced need list. You'll need to bring other IoM units to block off positions before you are over run.
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Leth wrote: Honestly most of the nids and the orks strength comes from people not having to play or design around hordes for nearly 10 years or more. Once we get used to hordes again it will be a different animal.
Also we need to rethink our thinking. I am shifting to a focus on "which weapons I want" and "best way to deliver those weapons/the chassis"
So I am looking at twin assault cannons as a solid weapon to have good volume of fire and would be helpful at clearing out horde models,
Same with hurricane bolters
Know what killed hordes before? Templates. Templates everywhere murdered hordes. We no longer have templates. Hordes are thus making a VENGEFUL resurgence. Templates can't even, with a maximized roll, hit nearly as much as they used to.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
So there is SOME choppy, but don't expect it to take down the biggest things through melee, just tear through hordes like a blender full of Rippers set to "puree".
Crazyterran wrote: So, Aura effects also affect the model that brings the Aura, right?
So does Guilliman reroll hits and wounds?
With the rules as written, he certainly does
GW has confirmed it. He's an Ultramarine, so he benefits from his own rule.
When I did my quick napkin math, I didn't realize you could double up on chainswords. But even then with Grimaldus and double chainswords, they die in one round of attacks to the 20-man genestealer blob. I believe the genestealer blob is only 220 points.
They can swap their bolt pistol and chainsword for two items from the pistol or melee weapon lists. Double chainswords are an option.
In this sort of fight, the Marines may survive if they fight first, if they fight second they are definitely dead unless dice go funny (as they do sometimes).
Templates only killed hordes because of the rules of the game back then. With the current edition and removing whatever models you want templates wouldn't kill anything more than they do now. Just spread out like you used to and keep charging forward.
People's models and units have been optimized for a different game for a long time. Twin assaultcannons drop hordes, heavy bolters on marines are good against hordes.
thatssoeffingcool wrote: What are the combos right now? Are there any must take units or ones people are really liking?
Choppy or Shooty?
The current SM index can't do choppy. It lacks good dedicated assault units for dealing with anything but big gribblies. Thunderhamers will punk a tank, but do very little to, say, 30 hormagaunts.
I disagree, I believe Vangaurd Vets with chainssword do a fairly good job, especially with storm shield for a cheap 5pts a pop. A chaplin lets you reroll all your failed hits and a Librarian can give you unit +1S/T/A, this will let you kill hordes of guys easily.
Have you mathed it? I like mathing verse Genestealers (As the unit I think is the best) and ork boyz
Does the unit need to be the best to be a good dedicated assault unit? Of course the genestealers are cheaper, 120 for 10 I believe they hit and wound the same as the Vanguard Vets, have one more attack while they have 10 or more models, they only have a 5++ save, where as the vangaurd vets have 3++. Movement isn't much different if you take jumppacks on VV. So 10 VV cost 230, where as 10 Genestealers cost 120, genestealers have 1 more attack while 10 or more models, VV always have a 3++ with stormshields. basically means they have 1/3 more wounds then genestealers, so it's like having 15 wounds on the unit., The VV to pay for a special deployment method. VV have a lot of weapon options, Genestealers can take a cheaper weapon and not be able to deal with armor.
Over all it's a mess, yes genestealers are better, but I don't think it's a big enough difference to say VV are not a good dedicated melee unit.
They look balanced. Their units are pretty much based around to being dedicated to single tasks. Biggest buff they got is how fast they are. Playing against them is a lot like the lore honestly.
Specialized units do better than generalists. Especially since speed means they minimize drastically the time where their melee specialists are not in their preferred environment. Space marines alone I don't think can beat a well balanced need list. You'll need to bring other IoM units to block off positions before you are over run.
maybe it's just me but isn't this business as usual for Marines? They never out specialize specialists.
Model and unit placement is definitely important against Nids. Defensive use of transports (deploying them as a wall close enough together that most of their unit can't charge effectively against the front while staying outside of 1" of non charged models forcing multi charges, or them to consolidate into combat) while deploying units behind them instead of in them is a small thought I've had.
Basically when the opponent is going to come to you, then you don't need to plan where to go from where you are, but rather plan for where they'll be and planning your defense appropiately.
Also if we an still buy obstacles it might be worth taking them for slowing down Nids since they can decrease movement. Same for charging through woods or craters.
Tactics aren't just a situation of mathhammering out the most effective unit build in a vacuum but developing tactics to utilize that unit to the maximum effectiveness possible.
As such we should be looking less at how good things look on paper in a perfect vaccuum and consider what tools we have in our lists, and on the table we can use to effectively play against different armies.
I'm almost positive that there is a way to deploy units in such a way that it's impossible to only charge just one while maintaining coherency (mainly so I lut out more Overwatch into the charging unit, like via a Sternguard unit at full size with Storm Bolters on everyone) but I'm still mulling that over.
Leth wrote: Honestly most of the nids and the orks strength comes from people not having to play or design around hordes for nearly 10 years or more. Once we get used to hordes again it will be a different animal.
Also we need to rethink our thinking. I am shifting to a focus on "which weapons I want" and "best way to deliver those weapons/the chassis"
So I am looking at twin assault cannons as a solid weapon to have good volume of fire and would be helpful at clearing out horde models,
Same with hurricane bolters
Know what killed hordes before? Templates. Templates everywhere murdered hordes. We no longer have templates. Hordes are thus making a VENGEFUL resurgence. Templates can't even, with a maximized roll, hit nearly as much as they used to.
Yes, we lost templates, but we gained multi shots on weapons. Some weapons even gained extra shots.
Our basic Captain makes shooting more reliable and some SCs let you reroll all to hit rolls making it devestating when compared to what somethings could do before. The Storm Bolter is probably the most buffed weapon in our entire wargear list.
We lost templates but gained Mortal Wounds which overflow, gained more reliable shooting and I feel like we can likely find ways to counter things. The game is more than just numbers in a vacuum.
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Leth wrote: Templates only killed hordes because of the rules of the game back then. With the current edition and removing whatever models you want templates wouldn't kill anything more than they do now. Just spread out like you used to and keep charging forward.
People's models and units have been optimized for a different game for a long time. Twin assaultcannons drop hordes, heavy bolters on marines are good against hordes.
Got to adapt instead of complain.
Heavy Grav looks to be a buff over the HB against hordes since it an extra shot and -3AP. Shorter range, but against Nids, or in more aggressive lists it'll regularly be in range.
Leth wrote: Templates only killed hordes because of the rules of the game back then. With the current edition and removing whatever models you want templates wouldn't kill anything more than they do now. Just spread out like you used to and keep charging forward.
People's models and units have been optimized for a different game for a long time. Twin assaultcannons drop hordes, heavy bolters on marines are good against hordes.
Got to adapt instead of complain.
yeha, people who built a list around killing biog death stars etc, (which we typically saw in 7th) are apt to have a lot of hard hitting guns, but not a lot of "big splashing guns" heavy bolter centurions might suddenly become a good anti horde lynchpin
Leth wrote: Templates only killed hordes because of the rules of the game back then. With the current edition and removing whatever models you want templates wouldn't kill anything more than they do now. Just spread out like you used to and keep charging forward.
People's models and units have been optimized for a different game for a long time. Twin assaultcannons drop hordes, heavy bolters on marines are good against hordes.
Got to adapt instead of complain.
yeha, people who built a list around killing biog death stars etc, (which we typically saw in 7th) are apt to have a lot of hard hitting guns, but not a lot of "big splashing guns" heavy bolter centurions might suddenly become a good anti horde lynchpin
They are three times the cost of the heavy bolter and that is the main problem for anti hordes. We want cheap, high number of shoots on a cheaper platform.
I think that a predator autocannon with two heavy bolters is an all around pretty solid platform. The guaranteed 3 damage is pretty solid
With the way a lot of stuff works now, I feel like shooting should be split into two groups:
1. Stuff for big things (like Lascannons) that have a low number of shots but high strength
2. Stuff for everything else (like Heavy Bolters) which rely more on the number of dice you throw over AP or strength
We need a mix of these two things in our list, and the second at least has a chance of working against targets the first shoots at through weight of dice while the first only kills a couple models more completely.
That said, multi damage wapons might be the best anti-FnP setup since you have to take that test to shrug off the unsaved wounds against each of those unsaved wounds, not just one, increasing the odds that something dies.
Leth wrote: Templates only killed hordes because of the rules of the game back then. With the current edition and removing whatever models you want templates wouldn't kill anything more than they do now. Just spread out like you used to and keep charging forward.
People's models and units have been optimized for a different game for a long time. Twin assaultcannons drop hordes, heavy bolters on marines are good against hordes.
Got to adapt instead of complain.
yeha, people who built a list around killing biog death stars etc, (which we typically saw in 7th) are apt to have a lot of hard hitting guns, but not a lot of "big splashing guns" heavy bolter centurions might suddenly become a good anti horde lynchpin
They are three times the cost of the heavy bolter and that is the main problem for anti hordes. We want cheap, high number of shoots on a cheaper platform.
I think that a predator autocannon with two heavy bolters is an all around pretty solid platform. The guaranteed 3 damage is pretty solid
what about whirlwinds with castellian launchers? 115 points for a unit capable of dealing damage to 2-12 units. that should be eneugh to shatter squads reasonably easy.
A single grav cannon may better and more versatile than a heavy bolter, but you can get 3 heavy bolters for that price. And if you already have lascannons in your list, then it seems like a devastator squad of 4 heavy bolters is a way more effective horde mower than a single grav cannon in a tactical squad.
But, I would ALWAYS run 1 Plasma Cannon in each devastator squad now, seeing as you can use the Signum ability from the sergeant on them each turn, and then you're effectively shooting supercharged shots all game with small risk of being slain.
One other nifty thing for VV's is that since you can now allocate which model is receiving the wound, why not give one or two guys in the squad a chainsword and storm shield? This way they are a cheap model in the unit that takes all the -ap shots and uses their invulnerable save. So the other guys with the plasma pistols & power weapons/thunder hammers are surviving longer and able to dish it out while the cheap storm shield guys take the hits. increases survivability while still being able to bring the pain.
Double Plasma Pistols are currently an option too.
That said I'm not getting too attached to anything, but I rather hope the ability to double down like that stays. It looks like a fun way to build some really interesting VV squads that can bring out the character of a chapter based on what you build them for.
That said, after reading a summary of someone's 8th edition game, apparently Terminators feel properly awesome. Drop them into Rapid Fire range on a target and unload the hurt with the buffed Storm Bolters. Cyclones were also apparently pretty good.
And apparently since they can actually swing with their Power Fists at a reasonable speed on the charge they feel more awesome to use to punch things.
Nice to hear they feel "right" finally.
Still won't be running an all Terminator List anytume soon, but it's nice to know.
hm, starting to think what VV's with a jump captain could do with those...
can you fire pistols instead of a cc weapon? like, I know you can shoot pistols in the shooting phase when in cc, but can you use them instead of your inherent 'melee weapon/sidearm' that each model comes with? and then fire two pistols in each round of the fight phase?
hm, starting to think what VV's with a jump captain could do with those...
can you fire pistols instead of a cc weapon? like, I know you can shoot pistols in the shooting phase when in cc, but can you use them instead of your inherent 'melee weapon/sidearm' that each model comes with? and then fire two pistols in each round of the fight phase?
No. You can only fire them in the shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about it, the fact that I have six Elites and two HQs, I think I would be better served by taking two Vanguard Detachments instead of a Battalion. For one less CP, I can forgo my Troops altogether. This would save me 380 pts to spend on stuff. I would get two Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks for 105 a piece. That would leave me with 170 pts for stuff. If I wanted, I could still take my two Combi-Flamer/Flamer Tactical Squads. That would hit the 2000 pts right on the dot. It would have a ton better shooting at the low low price of a Command Point (which I have to fight to remember to use...). I could always get a Venerable Dreadnought as well. I would like to find space for a Primaris Lieutenant, but I don't really want to take just him. It really stinks that the price of Inceptors shot up, because I would actually really like to use a squad of them (literally some of the most Crimson Fists-esque units EVER).
Any thoughts on what to do with those extra 170 pts? As of right now, I am leaning toward just keeping the Tactical Squads.
And I almost what should have been the obvious choice, a second squad of Devastators, this time with Missile Launchers to go with my Lascannon Devastators. They can take care of hordes better than the Combi-Flamer/Flamer Tactical Squad (but probably not as good as two Tactical Squads). Add in the fact they can supplement the vehicle busting of the Lascannon Devs, they seem like a logical fit. It even gives me the extra four points I need to pay the points for the Storm Bolters that are glued on my Rhinobacks! Maximum shooting!
That said I'm not getting too attached to anything, but I rather hope the ability to double down like that stays. It looks like a fun way to build some really interesting VV squads that can bring out the character of a chapter based on what you build them for.
That said, after reading a summary of someone's 8th edition game, apparently Terminators feel properly awesome. Drop them into Rapid Fire range on a target and unload the hurt with the buffed Storm Bolters. Cyclones were also apparently pretty good.
And apparently since they can actually swing with their Power Fists at a reasonable speed on the charge they feel more awesome to use to punch things.
Nice to hear they feel "right" finally.
Still won't be running an all Terminator List anytume soon, but it's nice to know.
No lie, I am still salty over their change to Terminators from 5th edition.
That said I'm not getting too attached to anything, but I rather hope the ability to double down like that stays. It looks like a fun way to build some really interesting VV squads that can bring out the character of a chapter based on what you build them for.
That said, after reading a summary of someone's 8th edition game, apparently Terminators feel properly awesome. Drop them into Rapid Fire range on a target and unload the hurt with the buffed Storm Bolters. Cyclones were also apparently pretty good.
And apparently since they can actually swing with their Power Fists at a reasonable speed on the charge they feel more awesome to use to punch things.
Nice to hear they feel "right" finally.
Still won't be running an all Terminator List anytume soon, but it's nice to know.
No lie, I am still salty over their change to Terminators from 5th edition.
what was the change from 5th edition? I don't recall
That said I'm not getting too attached to anything, but I rather hope the ability to double down like that stays. It looks like a fun way to build some really interesting VV squads that can bring out the character of a chapter based on what you build them for.
That said, after reading a summary of someone's 8th edition game, apparently Terminators feel properly awesome. Drop them into Rapid Fire range on a target and unload the hurt with the buffed Storm Bolters. Cyclones were also apparently pretty good.
And apparently since they can actually swing with their Power Fists at a reasonable speed on the charge they feel more awesome to use to punch things.
Nice to hear they feel "right" finally.
Still won't be running an all Terminator List anytume soon, but it's nice to know.
No lie, I am still salty over their change to Terminators from 5th edition.
what was the change from 5th edition? I don't recall
You can only take 1 heavy weapon per 5 models, where as before you could take 2 in 5 men. My termies are modeled with a cylcone and a assault cannon. Haven't been able to use them since
hm, starting to think what VV's with a jump captain could do with those...
can you fire pistols instead of a cc weapon? like, I know you can shoot pistols in the shooting phase when in cc, but can you use them instead of your inherent 'melee weapon/sidearm' that each model comes with? and then fire two pistols in each round of the fight phase?
No. You can only fire them in the shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about it, the fact that I have six Elites and two HQs, I think I would be better served by taking two Vanguard Detachments instead of a Battalion. For one less CP, I can forgo my Troops altogether. This would save me 380 pts to spend on stuff. I would get two Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks for 105 a piece. That would leave me with 170 pts for stuff. If I wanted, I could still take my two Combi-Flamer/Flamer Tactical Squads. That would hit the 2000 pts right on the dot. It would have a ton better shooting at the low low price of a Command Point (which I have to fight to remember to use...). I could always get a Venerable Dreadnought as well. I would like to find space for a Primaris Lieutenant, but I don't really want to take just him. It really stinks that the price of Inceptors shot up, because I would actually really like to use a squad of them (literally some of the most Crimson Fists-esque units EVER).
Any thoughts on what to do with those extra 170 pts? As of right now, I am leaning toward just keeping the Tactical Squads.
And I almost what should have been the obvious choice, a second squad of Devastators, this time with Missile Launchers to go with my Lascannon Devastators. They can take care of hordes better than the Combi-Flamer/Flamer Tactical Squad (but probably not as good as two Tactical Squads). Add in the fact they can supplement the vehicle busting of the Lascannon Devs, they seem like a logical fit. It even gives me the extra four points I need to pay the points for the Storm Bolters that are glued on my Rhinobacks! Maximum shooting!
100 points for Assbacks. Unless you are including the Stormbolter Price?
If fast units moving assault units becomes a thing, maybe Tac Marines with Flamers/Combi-Flamers could stand in front amd catch a charge? Or Assault Marines with a pair of flamers. 85 Points for the tactical marines, Jump Assault Marines with the flamers are 98. 83 without. The Jump Packs, if you survive, will let you hoof it and shoot.
Assuming they charge within 8" to get decent odds of making it, its about 4 dead stealers according to my napkin math, which isnt great, but if they soak the original charge and leave a bunch of bugs in front of your guns...
Crap, you're right! I was adding them to the Rhino price, not the Razorback price(why are these even different?!). There's two Armourium Cherubs for me.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Crap, you're right! I was adding them to the Rhino price, not the Razorback price(why are these even different?!). There's two Armourium Cherubs for me.
Once you throw the base twin heavy bolter on it is 82 vs the Rhino's 72. You get a five point discount for carrying 4 less people.
I guess carrying capacity is worth 1.25 ppm carried? :p
So, assault cannons are my new favourite weapon on razors, stormtalons and landspeeders.
Krak missiles make for great pseudo-lascannons at half the price.
Scout bikers can put out 22 s4 shots @12" once you give the sgt a stormbolter for his pistol.
Next game I'm trying out heavy flamers on all my speeders, since they always seem to be getting assaulted. Pleased with the stormhawk for plinking wave serpents and other pesky FLY units.
My scouts are working nicely with a heavy bolter, 3 snipers and sgt with chainsword/stormbolter. Allows them to snipe and put out a fair amount of overwatch for when they inevitably get charged. Combi-flamer's a consideration.
My traditional melta LotD are pretty expensive, so I switched them to plasma (gun+ pistol), power axe on the sgt. Not too expensive and really worth it so far.
Captain with jumpack, combi-plas and powerfist is a boss. Supercharge and reroll 1s, charge, jump out of combat and shoot again.
How does the Stormtalon look? I rather like the model and am thinking of getting one. Wouldn't know how to kit it out though.
How would you all kit out your assault marines? Should I not bother with the plasma pistols? Thinking of giving the sarge a pair of claws.
Does the deathwind launcher look ok if I'm already bringing a drop pod? Only 3 points more than the storm bolter and it has one more strength and on average more attacks.
What's the word on the Dev squads weapons? From what I can gather (and see on the stats for myself) the lascannons look like their best tank/monster killers and plasma is more for units made of several high T and Armor models like Termies or Meganobz but can also do well against single big targets. Muli-melta looks like a high-risk/reward lasscanon due to short range but more potential damage and heavy bolter is the anti-light infantry option. I think the grav-cannon is meant to have a similar role to the plasma cannon but appears slightly better but at a higher cost. Missile launcher looks like it can either be a slightly worse lascannon or a slightly worse heavy bolter which could be good for the flexibility.
How does the Stormtalon look? I rather like the model and am thinking of getting one. Wouldn't know how to kit it out though.
How would you all kit out your assault marines? Should I not bother with the plasma pistols? Thinking of giving the sarge a pair of claws.
Does the deatwind launcher look ok if I'm already bringing a drop pod? Only 3 points more than the storm bolter and it has one more strength and on average more attacks.
The Talon looks good to me on paper. I’m torn on what guns to give it myself. Since it released, I’ve been a big fan of the Skyhammers. I’m continuing to lean that way. Moderate point cost, and the bonus vs. flyers is nice. If you need to shoot at something on the ground, the +1 you get from strafing run (miss-named on the sheet, as interceptor, but the rule is the same) counteracts it. But with everything being split fire, and a 60” range, you should be able to find something without mud on it to light up. But a little AA is a good thing, and should make for a nice TAC loadout.
I’m painting up some plasma pistols as we speak to put back on my assaults. If you plan on deep striking them, I think that’s the obvious choice. As the 9” you need between you and your target is greater then the flamers’ range. If you plan on starting on the table, the flamer remains a decent pick. But I’m probably going back to plasma on mine for most lists, unless I’m seriously lacking in ways to thin hordes.
The one big drawback with the deathwind remains the 12” range. While I agree it’s better then the SB within that, for an immobile platform, I like the option to reach out to 24” Sure, it’s not a lot of firepower, but it does add up of you are shooting multiple pods/rhinos/etc at things. That said, if you like the deathwind, it’s not the end of the world to take one. The points are negligible, and you trade long range for better close in fire. Not a trade I’d make, but I can see the merits to it.
If you plan on deep striking them, I think that’s the obvious choice. As the 9” you need between you and your target is greater then the flamers’ range. If you plan on starting on the table, the flamer remains a decent pick. But I’m probably going back to plasma on mine for most lists, unless I’m seriously lacking in ways to thin hordes.
The one big drawback with the deathwind remains the 12” range. While I agree it’s better then the SB within that, for an immobile platform, I like the option to reach out to 24” Sure, it’s not a lot of firepower, but it does add up of you are shooting multiple pods/rhinos/etc at things. That said, if you like the deathwind, it’s not the end of the world to take one. The points are negligible, and you trade long range for better close in fire. Not a trade I’d make, but I can see the merits to it.
I thought the same thing about the pistols, but I have no experience with space marines so I wasn't sure. I think I will deep strike them though, so they might take them then.
I only ask about the deathwind because if I add up all the space marines models I technically own (pre-ordered Dark Imperium with a friend) then I have 1997 points which I can just push to 2000 with the deathwind.
Was the company command squad broken up into company champion, apothecary, company ancient, and company veterans? And then the plain space marine captain with a plasma pistol and powersword of course.
Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.
I'm going with plasma on my assault marines, but it's worth noting I'm going with chainswords for the melee weapons so the Plasma are my "Armor crackers"
GreatGranpapy wrote: Anyone else feel that the eviscerater looks like a bad option?
Not if you put it on the Sergeant. He will have two attacks with it rather than one. I don't think it is worth the extra points and loss of a pistol though. It might be more expensive, but the five points more for a Thunder hammer and plasma pistol is a much better option.
The Talon looks good to me on paper. I’m torn on what guns to give it myself. Since it released, I’ve been a big fan of the Skyhammers. I’m continuing to lean that way. Moderate point cost, and the bonus vs. flyers is nice. If you need to shoot at something on the ground, the +1 you get from strafing run (miss-named on the sheet, as interceptor, but the rule is the same) counteracts it. But with everything being split fire, and a 60” range, you should be able to find something without mud on it to light up. But a little AA is a good thing, and should make for a nice TAC loadout.
The skyhammer is the last weapon I would choose for Stormtalon, it goes against the intended role of the vehicle. If you want an anti-air flyer, get Stormhawk, it does that job much better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.
I'm absolutely ecstatic that apotecharies can again freely move about like the Emperor intended! I have hated the command squads ever since they were introduced in the third edition.
It is completely stupid that the honour guard squads are limited to two models though.
Nevelon wrote: Not sure how I feel about the break up of the command squads (and honor guard as well). It might be nice to field the guys ala carte, but I liked them being a squad. Need to mull it over a bit more.
I'm absolutely ecstatic that apotecharies can again freely move about like the Emperor intended! I have hated the command squads ever since they were introduced in the third edition.
It is completely stupid that the honour guard squads are limited to two models though.
Honour Guard should have been 2-4. It sucks I have to take two Elites choices to run them in a number that works. But at least I can attach an Apothecary like I wanted in 7th. Running two Honour Guard, an Apothecary, and my Chapter Master together in a Razorback (or Rhino Primaris) seems like it works out fairly well. The Honour Guard can eat a big hit that would have landed in Pedro, then the Apothecary resurrects them next turn. Between that, the Apothecary's healing ability, and Pedro's Warlord trait giving him Ignore on a 6, the unit should be pretty survivable. Add in that the HG have two wounds now, they should do okay.
GreatGranpapy wrote: I think I agree with some of what was said earlier; Inceptors look too expensive for what they do. Their role could easily go to a single Stormtalon.
Yeah. Stormtalon with assault cannons and heavy bolters costs about the same as TWO inceptors. It has better firepower, and is more mobile and MUCH more resilient.
Honour Guard should have been 2-4. It sucks I have to take two Elites choices to run them in a number that works. But at least I can attach an Apothecary like I wanted in 7th. Running two Honour Guard, an Apothecary, and my Chapter Master together in a Razorback (or Rhino Primaris) seems like it works out fairly well. The Honour Guard can eat a big hit that would have landed in Pedro, then the Apothecary resurrects them next turn. Between that, the Apothecary's healing ability, and Pedro's Warlord trait giving him Ignore on a 6, the unit should be pretty survivable. Add in that the HG have two wounds now, they should do okay.
Agreed. This is basically what I contemplated earlier using with a drop pod. Pedro + Honour Guard + Apotechary.
The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.
The Talon is more general purpose and flexible. Strafing run negates the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. But it can also hover, and just fire for full effect. Sure, you are going to be vulnerable, but it’s not as bad as it was in previous editions. Giving up a -1 to hit is not the same as only snap shots. Taking the skyhammers gives it a solid AA presence, without sacrificing much in it’s primary role.
Nevelon wrote: The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.
A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.
Nevelon wrote: The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.
A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.
My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.
It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.
My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.
And yet you want to equip Stormtalon with skyhammers...
Nevelon wrote: The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.
A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.
My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.
It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.
I think dedicated flyer hunters like a Stormhawk are largely unnecessary given that there is only a -1 to hit a flyer anymore.
Agreed on the Stormraven though. That thing is going to be great for my Blood Angels. I can't see myself running one with my Crimson Fists (too many $ for almost never seeing the board), though. I am focused on the ground game anyway. And given than I have ways to mitigate the shooting penalty imposed by flyers(Rhino Primaris for the win!), I think I would only be getting it to have a complete Storm Wing. My Stormtalons won't even be seeing play, I don't think (they would get Typhoon Missile Launchers instead of Skyhammers).
My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.
And yet you want to equip Stormtalon with skyhammers...
Because they can mitigate it.
A talon shooting skyhammers at a ground target on the move is hitting on a 5+ If they need to hit, they can stand still, and hit on a 4+. Not ideal, but I expect the AsCs to be doing the bulk of the work anyway. Plus with no firing arcs and a 60” range, I’m guessing you can find something to shoot. I always liked the talon as a multi-role flyer, so having a little edge vs. other flyers appeals to me. If I just want to shoot ground targets, I’ve got a whole codex full of stuff that can do that. But if I want anything resembling a change of knocking a supersonic flyer out of the sky, I need some sort of edge.
The game does favor hyper speculation. Or it did in pervious editions. I think 8th might be a little more gentle on flexible builds, with native split fire. Still just woking mostly with theoreticals at this point.
A talon shooting skyhammers at a ground target on the move is hitting on a 5+ If they need to hit, they can stand still, and hit on a 4+. Not ideal, but I expect the AsCs to be doing the bulk of the work anyway. Plus with no firing arcs and a 60” range, I’m guessing you can find something to shoot. I always liked the talon as a multi-role flyer, so having a little edge vs. other flyers appeals to me. If I just want to shoot ground targets, I’ve got a whole codex full of stuff that can do that. But if I want anything resembling a change of knocking a supersonic flyer out of the sky, I need some sort of edge.
Both lascannons and Typhoon are better against air targets than Skyhammer, and massively better against ground targets. Sure, they're more expensive, but it's easily worth it. Do the math, Skyhammer is a gak weapon.
Yeah the Skyhammer really seems weak right now. Makes me glad that I accidently assembled my stormtalon with the typhoon ML when I assembled it. Finally it's WYSIWYG again. ^^
On another note, what loadout do people prefer for their predators now? Predator Autocannon + Lascannon sponsons, or Twin Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons?
All Lascannons on the predators. For thirty seven more points over Devastators you get 5 more wounds and T7. The only downside over Devastators is th fact that enemy multi damage weapons will make you a lot sadder.
But if you are going to be running a bunch of ass backs, armour saturation is pretty swell...
I also assembled my Stormtalon with a Typhoon Launcher accidentally, since I figured the one firing more missiles would be the one with more missiles...
Nevelon wrote: The Stormhawk is a pure interceptor, and looks to be pretty good at it’s job. It can kinda fake ground support with the right guns. Icarus stormcannon/skyhammers for pure AA, LasTalon/ and then the HB/TML if you want to try ground support. But it’s really designed to keep the skies clean, so I’d run with that.
A Stormhawk kitted out with two assault cannons and a las talon (with no penalty for targeting ground units) is no joke for ground support. I'm running mine with assault cannons, las talon and skyhammer missiles. All weapons benefit from Interceptor ability too so it can also take on flyers. Skyhammer benefits 2x from it as the weapon has a bonus for targeting flyers as well (add+2 to hit rolls for it). In a 1500p list or less I think it performs well in both roles.
My main issue with it targeting ground stuff is that it’s always going to be taking that -1 for moving and firing heavy weapons. No rule to offset it, no ability to stand still. So at best you are hitting on a 4+. Add in the damage track, and possible other penalties, and you might end up missing a lot.
It will be interesting to take a good look at the Raven. Sure, it’s a billion points, but it’s a flying gunboat loaded with guns and some nice special rules.
I think the Storm Raven is going to be a hidden gem. It has a ton of special rules and can still function as a transport.
Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.
benlac wrote: Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.
Is it not "Twin-Assault cannons"? Basically the stats of 2 assault cannons, but in 1 weapon.
benlac wrote: Are the assault cannons on the stormhawk twin-linked? it used to be twin-linked I'm pretty sure, but now it says "two assault cannons". though, when looking at the thing you'd assume they're twin-linked as it's not like it can fire them at different targets at the same time.
Twin-linked is pretty much gone in 8th. Everything that was twinlinked instead got turned into two weapons, i.e. Twin-linked Assault Cannon -> Twin Assault Cannon.
This of course means that everything that was twin-linked is much better, since twice the amount of shots is much better than half the amount but re-rolling to hit.
Right, I meant Twin Assault Cannon, sorry.
It says on the stat card 'two assault cannons' for the interceptor, whereas on the razorback it says 'twin heavy bolters'. Now the twin IS an improvement over twin-linked, but having 'two assault cannons' means you have to pay for it twice, whereas when it's a 'twin' it's cheaper (for heavy bolters/assault cannons).
So apparently the Stormhawk DOESN"T have twin assault cannons, it has two assault cannons, which is dumb as they're fixed weapons both pointing the same direction. So now it makes the Stormhawk more expensive -_-
In a sample game I took out my pred in my old favorite auto/las config. The new pred autocannon is very nice. I think it’s a wash against the LCs. More shots, less AP, solid damage. Obviously better against softer targets
LC sponsons are a bit on the pricy side. Still good to have, but I might reconsider and go with the HBs nest time to see how they do.
I honestly thing there isn’t a wrong answer on preds these days.
I need to paint up more SBs on tank hatches. Seems criminal not to just plaster them everywhere for 2 points each.
Nevelon wrote: I need to paint up more SBs on tank hatches. Seems criminal not to just plaster them everywhere for 2 points each.
Agreed. But I still won't put them on my razorbacks. It looks like the damn weapons are shooting into them on those. As someone who's really into the aesthetics of the game.. I just, can't.
I do think the secret to the most success is to run an imperium army and not a pure SM army, if what you want is pure cutting edge winning potential.
Militarum can provide both chaff and solid armor. Scions are probably the best drop troops in the game now that drop pods are, well, bad. And Marines have more reliable ranged killing.
There's even a few oddball units like Crusaders with storm shields for pure staying power on a budget.
I suspect mixed lists like this will be top tier.
Also Guilliman really facilitates this, and I love running guilliman
stratigo wrote: I do think the secret to the most success is to run an imperium army and not a pure SM army, if what you want is pure cutting edge winning potential.
Militarum can provide both chaff and solid armor. Scions are probably the best drop troops in the game now that drop pods are, well, bad. And Marines have more reliable ranged killing.
There's even a few oddball units like Crusaders with storm shields for pure staying power on a budget.
I suspect mixed lists like this will be top tier.
Also Guilliman really facilitates this, and I love running guilliman
I wouldnt want to go full on cheese mode but i have to ask how cheap are scion drops?
would be interesting dropping in with a unit of assault or vanguard behind them as a bubble wrap protection.
Any thoughts on Vanguard vets? Stormshields look pretty good and Thunderhammers, despite being the same price as Powerfists, are basically better fists. Could do the good ol' three with shields and two with two claws combo. Might give the Sarge a Relic blade as well if I get them.
stratigo wrote: I do think the secret to the most success is to run an imperium army and not a pure SM army, if what you want is pure cutting edge winning potential.
Militarum can provide both chaff and solid armor. Scions are probably the best drop troops in the game now that drop pods are, well, bad. And Marines have more reliable ranged killing.
There's even a few oddball units like Crusaders with storm shields for pure staying power on a budget.
I suspect mixed lists like this will be top tier.
Also Guilliman really facilitates this, and I love running guilliman
I wouldnt want to go full on cheese mode but i have to ask how cheap are scion drops?
would be interesting dropping in with a unit of assault or vanguard behind them as a bubble wrap protection.
They are a minimum of 10 points per dude, with the option to take 2 plasma guns every 5. They are strictly a more cost effective unit than sternguard for dropping behind enemy lines since they don't pay a a drop pod tax. Mixing them with jump troops and maybe a termite squad is the best way to set up a drop focused armies, remembering that half your units need to set up first turn
How are players feeling about classic dreads with an assault cannon, fist, and heavy flamer? Boosted AC shots helps and a great support to walk alongside other vehicles like razorbacks. Good all around for 148 points.
buddha wrote: How are players feeling about classic dreads with an assault cannon, fist, and heavy flamer? Boosted AC shots helps and a great support to walk alongside other vehicles like razorbacks. Good all around for 148 points.
Nothing stops the -1 hit mod for heavy though so not sure.
i think it might be an interesting twin las platform who isnt a push over in CC if some one drops in from behind. even drop plasma might have some trouble cracking the beast.
Has anyone tried out a more mech focused list? Something like 4 razorbacks with ass cannons and and 2 predators with las cannons. Then support with storm talons dreads and msu
-Predators are so overpriced that it seems like there might be a typo somewhere. The Predator is only 1 Wound more resilient than a Razorback and can't transport anyone, but it costs almost 40 points more! I seriously think there's an error and this is meant to be toughness 8 or something - the chassis inefficiency is just too high otherwise, and it doesn't make sense compared to units that were similarly armored in previous editions.
-Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons stack up poorly to IG artillery. Luckily, we can just take IG artillery now.
-The Fast Attack slot looks relatively weak.
-Razorbacks are very efficient, especially with upgraded turrets. The twin assault cannon and twin lascannon turrets look especially cool - the classic las-plas configuration suffers somewhat from blowing up the entire tank with Gets Hot, but can always keep the gun on the standard setting to avoid the risk.
-Storm bolters are very cheap upgrades that go great on vehicles and on characters who aren't already using that weapon space for something else.
-Captains look quite strong, both for their stats and for their aura buffs. Chaplains are even better if you have a melee-focused army.
Kingsley wrote: -Predators are so overpriced that it seems like there might be a typo somewhere. The Predator is only 1 Wound more resilient than a Razorback and can't transport anyone, but it costs almost 40 points more! I seriously think there's an error and this is meant to be toughness 8 or something - the chassis inefficiency is just too high otherwise, and it doesn't make sense compared to units that were similarly armored in previous editions.
-Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons stack up poorly to IG artillery. Luckily, we can just take IG artillery now.
I was thinking the same thing about Predators. Can get 2 Lascannon Razorbacks for almost the same cost as a single Predator with 4 Lascannons, and have basically twice the wounds.
In regards to taking IG units, it seems to me when reading this rule like you DON'T get access to CP's if you do that as Battalion, Patrol, etc require all units to be from the same faction.
In regards to taking IG units, it seems to me when reading this rule like you DON'T get access to CP's if you do that as Battalion, Patrol, etc require all units to be from the same faction.
In regards to taking IG units, it seems to me when reading this rule like you DON'T get access to CP's if you do that as Battalion, Patrol, etc require all units to be from the same faction.
But... it specifically says that you do. In that caption you quoted.
In regards to taking IG units, it seems to me when reading this rule like you DON'T get access to CP's if you do that as Battalion, Patrol, etc require all units to be from the same faction.
But... it specifically says that you do. In that caption you quoted.
Yeah I misread that. Didn't realize ALL the SM's had 'Imperium' as a keyword. Thought they had "Adepts Astartes'. Sorry
Automatically Appended Next Post: In which case, maybe mixed armies will be pretty popular among those who don't bother with fluff too much
Kingsley wrote: -Predators are so overpriced that it seems like there might be a typo somewhere. The Predator is only 1 Wound more resilient than a Razorback and can't transport anyone, but it costs almost 40 points more! I seriously think there's an error and this is meant to be toughness 8 or something - the chassis inefficiency is just too high otherwise, and it doesn't make sense compared to units that were similarly armored in previous editions.
-Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons stack up poorly to IG artillery. Luckily, we can just take IG artillery now.
I was thinking the same thing about Predators. Can get 2 Lascannon Razorbacks for almost the same cost as a single Predator with 4 Lascannons, and have basically twice the wounds.
In regards to taking IG units, it seems to me when reading this rule like you DON'T get access to CP's if you do that as Battalion, Patrol, etc require all units to be from the same faction.
You end up paying for it with infantry
not that they are all bad but its not really the same as a single slot.
"In which case, maybe mixed armies will be pretty popular among those who don't bother with fluff too much"
i bet the new beardy hotness tourny list will end up being a lot of imperium cherry pickers.
"In which case, maybe mixed armies will be pretty popular among those who don't bother with fluff too much"
i bet the new beardy hotness tourny list will end up being a lot of imperium cherry pickers.
Eh, there are a lot of ways to make perfectly fluffy Imperial alliance armies, Inquisitorial task force, Rogue Trader's army, a crusade, Ultramar army, etc.
I really love that the army composition is this free, not because of cheese, but because I can buy and paint any imperial units I happen to like and still use them in a game.
"In which case, maybe mixed armies will be pretty popular among those who don't bother with fluff too much"
i bet the new beardy hotness tourny list will end up being a lot of imperium cherry pickers.
Eh, there are a lot of ways to make perfectly fluffy Imperial alliance armies, Inquisitorial task force, Rogue Trader's army, a crusade, Ultramar army, etc.
I really love that the army composition is this free, not because of cheese, but because I can buy and paint any imperial units I happen to like and still use them in a game.
Oh no thats not what i meant about that.
There is a difference between cherry picking and making a mixed fluff list. then again we dont know what command options we are going to miss out on by mixing so we need to wait and see
Basilisk and Wyvern seem like good heavy support additions to a SM list. only around 100 points for each. only crappy thing is when they're damaged their BS is awful.
Conscript bubble wrap is probably the best thing about combining the lists. So much cheaper than Scout™ Brand bubble wrap, and now with added Commissar!
Fenris-77 wrote: Conscript bubble wrap is probably the best thing about combining the lists. So much cheaper than Scout™ Brand bubble wrap, and now with added Commissar!
Fenris-77 wrote: Conscript bubble wrap is probably the best thing about combining the lists. So much cheaper than Scout™ Brand bubble wrap, and now with added Commissar!
Yeah, Conscripts are silly cheap.
Heavy Weapon Squads, Scions, and Taurox Primes are also good, and fit nicely into the WAAC list of your choosing. I need to run the math on the Gatling TP vs twin AC Razor just to see where that's at. Also, Assassins. Lots of assassins. I was thinking about throwing out two Culexus out against a Smite-fest list and had a chuckle thinking about all the associated shenanigans.
I'd like to say here, just for the record, that I've wanted to build a Marine/Guard list for years. I am not, and never have been, a member of the 8th Ed beardy-bandwagon party.
Apropos of nothing in particular, if it were possible to buy a t-shirt that said WAACFTW, would anyone else be tempted to buy one and actually, you know, wear it in public?
So I got my first game of 8th in last night against AdMech. I took a demi-company (in terms of units since that formation is gone) plus some termies and a Libby. Cataphractii Terminators are just nasty now, put might of heroes on them and they will shred nearly anything short of a greater demon. Tactical Marines feel a bit better now, they didn't do anything spectacular, but the heavy weapon changes plus split fire and being able to charge after shooting makes them feel like the jack-of-all trades that they are. Captains granting re-rolls to Devastators is pretty neat. My Assault Marines got shot down turn one due to bad rolls so I can't attest to them.
War Kitten wrote: So I got my first game of 8th in last night against AdMech. I took a demi-company (in terms of units since that formation is gone) plus some termies and a Libby. Cataphractii Terminators are just nasty now, put might of heroes on them and they will shred nearly anything short of a greater demon. Tactical Marines feel a bit better now, they didn't do anything spectacular, but the heavy weapon changes plus split fire and being able to charge after shooting makes them feel like the jack-of-all trades that they are. Captains granting re-rolls to Devastators is pretty neat. My Assault Marines got shot down turn one due to bad rolls so I can't attest to them.
Might of Heroes on "them" of one of them? Since it only targets a single model.
Fenris-77 wrote: Conscript bubble wrap is probably the best thing about combining the lists. So much cheaper than Scout™ Brand bubble wrap, and now with added Commissar!
Yeah, Conscripts are silly cheap.
Heavy Weapon Squads, Scions, and Taurox Primes are also good, and fit nicely into the WAAC list of your choosing. I need to run the math on the Gatling TP vs twin AC Razor just to see where that's at. Also, Assassins. Lots of assassins. I was thinking about throwing out two Culexus out against a Smite-fest list and had a chuckle thinking about all the associated shenanigans.
I'd like to say here, just for the record, that I've wanted to build a Marine/Guard list for years. I am not, and never have been, a member of the 8th Ed beardy-bandwagon party.
Apropos of nothing in particular, if it were possible to buy a t-shirt that said WAACFTW, would anyone else be tempted to buy one and actually, you know, wear it in public?
I was looking at inquisition acolytes with Stormbolters. They're only BS 4+ with a 5+ save, but they have 3 W and you can put stormbolters on every one of them for 10 total points. (Other specials too, but those are more expensive and defeat the whole purpose of cheap wounds/dakka.)
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
Wait, each Chainsword gets 2 attacks and vets have 2 with the sgt at 3 attacks, so a unit of 5 has 27 attacks right?
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
Wait, each Chainsword gets 2 attacks and vets have 2 with the sgt at 3 attacks, so a unit of 5 has 27 attacks right?
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
Wait, each Chainsword gets 2 attacks and vets have 2 with the sgt at 3 attacks, so a unit of 5 has 27 attacks right?
4(2x2) + (2x3) = 21 Attacks.
Get it, the bonus attack it's over the model stats not the weapon itself right?
For my purposes Company Vets are even better, put them in a LRC with a Character and they can soak up the wounds, found my new Crusaders
Vanguard Vets can get an hilarious number of attacks. Twin chainswords are an option and that gives a unit of 5 21 attacks. 10 models get 41 attacks. Run them without Jump Packs with Grimaldus to gain an extra 6.8 attacks on average for a whopping 47.8 attacks from a unit that only runs 160 points for the squad, and 280 with Grimaldus tagging along.
Wait, each Chainsword gets 2 attacks and vets have 2 with the sgt at 3 attacks, so a unit of 5 has 27 attacks right?
No each chainsword gives +1A, and they start with 2, so a unit of 5 would be (3+2) + 4(2+2)=21
I've been really pleased with the tactical terminators. The changes to storm bolters and deep strike as well as the +1 wound have made them successful in every game I've used them. And good placement of a teleport homer can have them jump back and support my line if the front wave breaks. All in all, decent shooting and can pack a punch (literally) while being tough to remove.
Well based off the leaks, Tyberos is pretty fething stellar. He gives everyone near him S5 by default this time, which is pretty cool with Scouts and Vanguard and stuff.
Gibs55 wrote: What's yours pick for the best characters?
Roboute Gulliman looks pretty powerful however is he worth 18 power points?
proably, power points are pretty loosey goosey, but I know people are suggesting gulliman is actually under costed for his pwoer level at 360 points.
I think Sicurious is a pretty solid unit. the special buff he applies to tac Marines, allowing tac marines to attack first even if charged, might (at least this early in 8th) allow you to catch someone off guard if they charge you.
So after even more Forge World leaks, I'm thinking about doing a tag team of sorts with Minotaurs and Carcharodons.
Obviously both the Chapter Masters giving rerolls is good and all, but I'm more interested in the other ability they both have. Tyberos gives +1S, which is awesome for Scouts and Bikers that are charging (obviously with the CC loadout on each. Yay Chainswords) and Asterion more importantly gives rerolls to charge. That's fething HUGE.
Now obviously I don't have the indexes yet, but how viable would it be to do two separate detachments, with Asterion + 2-3 Terminator squads, and Tyberos with 3-4 Scout and Biker squads each?
Gibs55 wrote: What's yours pick for the best characters?
Roboute Gulliman looks pretty powerful however is he worth 18 power points?
proably, power points are pretty loosey goosey, but I know people are suggesting gulliman is actually under costed for his pwoer level at 360 points.
I think Sicurious is a pretty solid unit. the special buff he applies to tac Marines, allowing tac marines to attack first even if charged, might (at least this early in 8th) allow you to catch someone off guard if they charge you.
Tac marines aren't going to surprise anyone in combat unless they have a big glowing power fist in there....and that wouldn't be a surprise.
My experience from my whopping 2 games last night;
Calgar is a beast. That re-roll aura is absolutely nuts. I can only imagine Guilliman's is even more overpowered. Calgar isn't bad in melee either, had him drop like 6 wounds on a Hellbrute on the charge, and kill Kharn after getting charged. The half wounds is SUPER good against D3 damage, and with the weird combat activation order now he managed to swing before kharn the second round of melee and finish him off.
Bike Captain with storm shield and power fist. I think he came out to 133 points, and was a complete tank. Took like 100+ khorne berserker attacks to drag him down, and he managed to kill 3-4 and 1-2 Bloodcrushers across multiple combat phases. The aura helped my bike plasma as well.
Gibs55 wrote: What's yours pick for the best characters?
Roboute Gulliman looks pretty powerful however is he worth 18 power points?
proably, power points are pretty loosey goosey, but I know people are suggesting gulliman is actually under costed for his pwoer level at 360 points.
I think Sicurious is a pretty solid unit. the special buff he applies to tac Marines, allowing tac marines to attack first even if charged, might (at least this early in 8th) allow you to catch someone off guard if they charge you.
Tac marines aren't going to surprise anyone in combat unless they have a big glowing power fist in there....and that wouldn't be a surprise.
My experience from my whopping 2 games last night;
Calgar is a beast. That re-roll aura is absolutely nuts. I can only imagine Guilliman's is even more overpowered. Calgar isn't bad in melee either, had him drop like 6 wounds on a Hellbrute on the charge, and kill Kharn after getting charged. The half wounds is SUPER good against D3 damage, and with the weird combat activation order now he managed to swing before kharn the second round of melee and finish him off.
Bike Captain with storm shield and power fist. I think he came out to 133 points, and was a complete tank. Took like 100+ khorne berserker attacks to drag him down, and he managed to kill 3-4 and 1-2 Bloodcrushers across multiple combat phases. The aura helped my bike plasma as well.
Guilliman is indeed very very good. His only actual weakness is hordes that can swamp him for many turns
Gibs55 wrote: What's yours pick for the best characters?
Roboute Gulliman looks pretty powerful however is he worth 18 power points?
proably, power points are pretty loosey goosey, but I know people are suggesting gulliman is actually under costed for his pwoer level at 360 points.
I think Sicurious is a pretty solid unit. the special buff he applies to tac Marines, allowing tac marines to attack first even if charged, might (at least this early in 8th) allow you to catch someone off guard if they charge you.
Tac marines aren't going to surprise anyone in combat unless they have a big glowing power fist in there....and that wouldn't be a surprise.
My experience from my whopping 2 games last night;
Calgar is a beast. That re-roll aura is absolutely nuts. I can only imagine Guilliman's is even more overpowered. Calgar isn't bad in melee either, had him drop like 6 wounds on a Hellbrute on the charge, and kill Kharn after getting charged. The half wounds is SUPER good against D3 damage, and with the weird combat activation order now he managed to swing before kharn the second round of melee and finish him off.
Bike Captain with storm shield and power fist. I think he came out to 133 points, and was a complete tank. Took like 100+ khorne berserker attacks to drag him down, and he managed to kill 3-4 and 1-2 Bloodcrushers across multiple combat phases. The aura helped my bike plasma as well.
Guilliman is indeed very very good. His only actual weakness is hordes that can swamp him for many turns
I've been very concerned about hordes actually, they take FOREVER to kill, and all the "good" hordes have morale immunity (Nids, orks and guard). I faced a 20 man bloodletter squad last night and that took forever to kill even without any morale tricks.
The 2 solutions are; Tarpit it with something really hard to kill (dread, character with 2+ save, bikes?) or just blast the ever living crap out of them. I personally used a 10 man Vanguard vets squad with BP/Chainswords under Calgar's aura. They carved a swath through the bloodletters.
Which brings me to my next point. Melee. Do NOT start a melee unless you are confident you can absolutely CRUSH you opponent. Grindy melees are worse then ever now, as I found myself bogged down in 1 one time, that resulted in Khorne reinforcements burying me, and secondly, disengaging hurts pretty bad. Not being able to shoot or re-assault kills the units. On the flip side, if you reduce an enemy melee unit to low levels of damage output (like 2-3 berserkers, or 1 bloodcrusher) they are significantly less of a threat, as they don't lock your unit down forever, being able to step out and finish is worth losing the shooting phase on 1 unit compared to being locked forever.
Rules leaks for Index Astartes shows that Contemptor Dreadnoughts (Relic or Mortis) no longer can take Cyclone Missile Launchers. Looks like I will need to figure out how to get mine off of my Mortis Contemptor.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Rules leaks for Index Astartes shows that Contemptor Dreadnoughts (Relic or Mortis) no longer can take Cyclone Missile Launchers. Looks like I will need to figure out how to get mine off of my Mortis Contemptor.
Yeah I saw that too. The index is giving us some serious tools.
Twin Accelerator Autocannon
48" Assault 8 S7 AP -1 D2
No penalty for Fly
6+ wound is AP -3
T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ means it is reasonably tough too.
Add in triple Heavy Bolters for 9 S5 AP-1 D1 shots at 36" and it seems like it has a whole lot of firepower. Good to thin some hordes, shoot up flyers, etc.
The Assault 8 is nice, so it can fire on the move without penalty, even though the HBs would. All that for 260pt.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Rules leaks for Index Astartes shows that Contemptor Dreadnoughts (Relic or Mortis) no longer can take Cyclone Missile Launchers. Looks like I will need to figure out how to get mine off of my Mortis Contemptor.
Yeah I saw that too. The index is giving us some serious tools.
In this case it took a tool away. Giant Nerf to Contemptors.
Twin Accelerator Autocannon
48" Assault 8 S7 AP -1 D2
No penalty for Fly
6+ wound is AP -3
T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ means it is reasonably tough too.
Add in triple Heavy Bolters for 9 S5 AP-1 D1 shots at 36" and it seems like it has a whole lot of firepower. Good to thin some hordes, shoot up flyers, etc.
The Assault 8 is nice, so it can fire on the move without penalty, even though the HBs would. All that for 260pt.
Seem like a solid inclusion?
might be points cost will tell, but it seems a better gun platform then the predator at least
BrotherGecko wrote: So what are people thinking the go to load outs for tactical squads going to be?
I'm running plasma guns, combi plasmas and a heavy weapon on my taticals, I've actually tried putting some heavy bolters on my tacs, to give them some extra infantry killing power while keeping my costs down.
I fielded my full-melta (MM/M, c-melta) 10 man tac squad twice on Sat. It preformed pretty much as it did in previous editions. But now with split fire. Still viable.
ML/F RTB01 beakies saw another edition on the table. Still serving. I should look up if Veterans of the Long War is still a rule and convince my opponents to let me use it for these guys. Again, bolstered by split fire.
I think flamers are no longer going to be viable in drop pods. 9” minimum distance with an 8” range is the death knell of dropping flaming death from the skies. Drop melta also took a hit to the jimmies. The MM can still get the bonus, but normal melta can’t be at half range. If you have a tac squad that wants to ride in a pod, I think plasma is your go-to pick. The other classic pod loads would probably be better in in a rhino that just moves up and pops smoke first turn.
Not sure how I feel about grav guns. They should do OK on tacs.
With heavies being able to shoot what they want independently, I think you can stick whatever you want on the squad. I always used tacs to shore up weaknesses in my lists, now more then ever.
Combis are better then ever. Putting a power sword on a sarge is now reasonably priced. Without being able to singe the sarge out in a challenge, fists are viable, if still expensive.
I'm wondering how viable the plasma/plasma cannon/combi-plasma load out is as a more defensive squad hanging back with a shooty (ier) captain.
I'm also torn on how to equip a devastator squad. I've got a 4 grav-cannon squad which looks to be okay as a counter attack drop pod unit against good save multi-wound units (like Primaris). Also drop multi-melta devastators sound possible. Lastly a 4 lascannon set up to hang back with the defensive captain as well. Not sure what sounds most useful.
With split fore everywhere, I think diversity might be nice to have. It eliminates the single point of failure issue. Not necessarily to the one of everything dev squad, but mix things up a bunch. It also lets you get some diverse firepower in range of buffs.
Speaking of which, the Primaris LTs are going to be the first thing to be built out of my new box. re-roll to wound bubble. Lots of ways to get re-rolls to hit, not many on the W side. Budget captain with one sitting back with the devs, CC one moving up with the chaplain/assaults to blend things.
Twin Accelerator Autocannon
48" Assault 8 S7 AP -1 D2
No penalty for Fly
6+ wound is AP -3
T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ means it is reasonably tough too.
Add in triple Heavy Bolters for 9 S5 AP-1 D1 shots at 36" and it seems like it has a whole lot of firepower. Good to thin some hordes, shoot up flyers, etc.
The Assault 8 is nice, so it can fire on the move without penalty, even though the HBs would. All that for 260pt.
Seem like a solid inclusion?
might be points cost will tell, but it seems a better gun platform then the predator at least
260pt for that configuration. Seems affordable enough to include in an armored-style list maybe.
Spare Points -what to do with them? HKM or a Melta Bomb? (no option for power weapons to add for me)
Looks like MB's can only go on VV's or Assault Squads which in my case are my VV's. Do I want to risk the D3 mortal wounds from the potential 6'' blast when using a MB (4'' range) with my expensive VV's?
It seems like HKM may be the way to go as it's much easier to hit with it, but putting it on a Predator that's already my biggest target I may be seeing it blown up first turn and never getting to use it.
So, do you spread out the points a bit with the MB or go with what seems like the better all-around option in the HKM?
Yeah, my razorbacks are more likely to be moving, which is why I'd go with the pred.
Side question -has anyone seen anything on dozer blades for vehicles? I haven't.. I'm just assuming they're for show now? If so, I think they missed an opportunity for them to give a vehicle a melee bonus imo
The previous Infiltrate plus Scout made them an amazing value but now?
Alot of my favorite units lost a bit of shine, but I'm not complaining much. I can save points on taking Centurions (and their drop pod) CC Scouts, Thunder fire Cannons, and take more assassins instead!
War Kitten wrote: So what are everyone's thoughts on Whirlwinds in this edition? Looking at their rules they seem like they got a pretty nifty buff this edition.
I will probably getting my hands on one
TFC let me down so far. its only one game though so i will need to see.
If I remember right, the Vengeance rockets get 2d6 shots at strength 6, but with AP -0. The other ones (the Castellan Rockets) get 2d3 shots, but at strength 7 and AP- 1. I forget the damage for the Castellan rockets, but I believe it was more than 1
Quick question, what role do the new primaris marines fill in a space marine army?
Inceptors seem too costly, hellblasters are less efficient plasma cannon devestators, even the intercessors seem overcosted in comparison to regular tactical marines.
The lieutenants seem like the strongest unit of the bunch because of their re-rolls to wound.
War Kitten wrote: If I remember right, the Vengeance rockets get 2d6 shots at strength 6, but with AP -0. The other ones (the Castellan Rockets) get 2d3 shots, but at strength 7 and AP- 1. I forget the damage for the Castellan rockets, but I believe it was more than 1
2 Damage its a Primarus killer. and not bad for SS terminators.
Jdredsox wrote: Quick question, what role do the new primaris marines fill in a space marine army?
Inceptors seem too costly, hellblasters are less efficient plasma cannon devestators, even the intercessors seem overcosted in comparison to regular tactical marines.
The lieutenants seem like the strongest unit of the bunch because of their re-rolls to wound.
Am I missing something?
-4 ap instead of 3 and better range.
hang on does the grenade harness ADD armor for the enemy!?
So guys I think the Plasma Pistol gunslinger Vanguard Vets might be a tactic you need to be careful with. I'm starting to see people react to plasma drops with varying tactics- Tyrant Guard, Honor Guard, -1 to hit auras, and dedicated character protection squads. As it should be, people are adapting their tactics. I'll continue to try and see if it as a tactic can stick around, but I doubt it'll continue to be the tactical nuke it currently is.
Jdredsox wrote: Quick question, what role do the new primaris marines fill in a space marine army?
Inceptors seem too costly, hellblasters are less efficient plasma cannon devestators, even the intercessors seem overcosted in comparison to regular tactical marines.
The lieutenants seem like the strongest unit of the bunch because of their re-rolls to wound.
Am I missing something?
My thoughts was placing Hellblasters in a high piece of Terrain with Captain and a Lieutenant to 'control' part of the board, I used to do it a Command Squad (Without Characters) with 4 Plasma Guns all the time and it always worked well for me. I think with the 8th Edition change it still could.
So, I'm doing my list right now and I have some questions for you guys who have already played some games.
What do you think about some plasma pistols for the VV ? Like, 2 or 3. Now that they don't overheat anymore, are cheap and we choose the casualities. It seems a good idea to gey some more punch.
The power axes seem better than the power mauls now, what a shame I modeled 4 with mauls
Tac squad seem really nerfed into oblivion this edition. They weren't particulary good before, but now they lost their 3+ armor (will usually get 4+ or 5+) and their AP5.
I used to play 3, I won't anymore.
As flamers are totally unplayable this edition, what weapons do you think I should give to my old flamer squad ? The others two already have plasma/combi plasma.
IIRC, a transport can transport several units, as long as it has the capacity. What do you think about two 5-men Tac squad with plasma/combi plasma in a drop pod ? 4 plasma weapons at rapid fire range, two units.
The chaplain seems to be buffed, his ability is an aura and isn't just for the first round anymore !
How do you plan to use your drop pods now ? I can't see myself using them with Tac squads and sternguard with combi are sooo expensive and I only have 1 sternguard unit
Jdredsox wrote: Quick question, what role do the new primaris marines fill in a space marine army?
Inceptors seem too costly, hellblasters are less efficient plasma cannon devestators, even the intercessors seem overcosted in comparison to regular tactical marines.
The lieutenants seem like the strongest unit of the bunch because of their re-rolls to wound.
Am I missing something?
Inceptors are fine if you use the Primaris points from the Starter. I think that is their intended cost, honestly. Hopefully GW addresses this.
Jdredsox wrote: Quick question, what role do the new primaris marines fill in a space marine army?
Inceptors seem too costly, hellblasters are less efficient plasma cannon devestators, even the intercessors seem overcosted in comparison to regular tactical marines.
The lieutenants seem like the strongest unit of the bunch because of their re-rolls to wound.
Am I missing something?
Inceptors are fine if you use the Primaris points from the Starter. I think that is their intended cost, honestly. Hopefully GW addresses this.
I would think the index overrides anything else, personally.
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godardc wrote: So, I'm doing my list right now and I have some questions for you guys who have already played some games.
What do you think about some plasma pistols for the VV ? Like, 2 or 3. Now that they don't overheat anymore, are cheap and we choose the casualities. It seems a good idea to gey some more punch.
The power axes seem better than the power mauls now, what a shame I modeled 4 with mauls
Tac squad seem really nerfed into oblivion this edition. They weren't particulary good before, but now they lost their 3+ armor (will usually get 4+ or 5+) and their AP5.
I used to play 3, I won't anymore.
As flamers are totally unplayable this edition, what weapons do you think I should give to my old flamer squad ? The others two already have plasma/combi plasma.
IIRC, a transport can transport several units, as long as it has the capacity. What do you think about two 5-men Tac squad with plasma/combi plasma in a drop pod ? 4 plasma weapons at rapid fire range, two units.
The chaplain seems to be buffed, his ability is an aura and isn't just for the first round anymore !
How do you plan to use your drop pods now ? I can't see myself using them with Tac squads and sternguard with combi are sooo expensive and I only have 1 sternguard unit
I think plasma pistols are better on them than melee weapons are. I would take a lot of them.
Tac squads are not great right now, however, flamers are amazing. D6 Auto hits is actually really strong, and wonderful in overwatch.
I think drop pods are too expensive for anything except sternguard and devastators, and then those are iffy.
Chaplains seem solid if you have 2+ assault units.
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ultimentra wrote: So guys I think the Plasma Pistol gunslinger Vanguard Vets might be a tactic you need to be careful with. I'm starting to see people react to plasma drops with varying tactics- Tyrant Guard, Honor Guard, -1 to hit auras, and dedicated character protection squads. As it should be, people are adapting their tactics. I'll continue to try and see if it as a tactic can stick around, but I doubt it'll continue to be the tactical nuke it currently is.
I'm not sure how people are sniping characters with VV if they are hidden behind other units like they should be. I think the real value of VV are overcharging plasma into things that you really want to kill, but like any deepstriking unit, can be partially countered by screening units.
War Kitten wrote: So what are everyone's thoughts on Whirlwinds in this edition? Looking at their rules they seem like they got a pretty nifty buff this edition.
A week ago I did a quick comparison of the WW vs IG artillery. While the WW is good, it seems like the Basilisk, Wyvern or Manticore are slightly better value imo. A combo of Wyvern & Basilisk/Manticore seems like the best.
Twin Accelerator Autocannon
48" Assault 8 S7 AP -1 D2
No penalty for Fly
6+ wound is AP -3
T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ means it is reasonably tough too.
Add in triple Heavy Bolters for 9 S5 AP-1 D1 shots at 36" and it seems like it has a whole lot of firepower. Good to thin some hordes, shoot up flyers, etc.
The Assault 8 is nice, so it can fire on the move without penalty, even though the HBs would. All that for 260pt.
Seem like a solid inclusion?
might be points cost will tell, but it seems a better gun platform then the predator at least
260pt for that configuration. Seems affordable enough to include in an armored-style list maybe.
260seems alright for comparison a dakka pred is 171 points and a laspred is 202,.
what does everyone think about using landraiders/ storm ravens transport capacity to minimizes deployement whilst still being a bit msu. something like:
Captain
chaplain
3x tac squad with dual special(say 2x dual melta 1x dual plasma)
2x assault with dual flamer
grav dev squad
Crusader
redeemer
Raven
3 drops, pretty durable and toolbox firepower in the tank.
General idea here is that the Las and HBDev squads set up with the Lieutenant as a firebase, with the ISM nearby. The Shotty Squad all deploy up close, ideally in cover for the Camo perk, and unload with gross firepower after they move in close for the S5. Lias, the Sternguard and two MMDev squads deploy in 9" out in ideal positions - mostly for nuking nasty tanks and shooting up stuff with their Special Ammo, Plasma, and Lias's gross weapon. He gives nearby units (in 6") re-roll to-hits and +1" movement, too, so that is handy if the Scouts are nearby and need to get out of cover and into shotty range, plus the re-roll on MMs is nice so you don't miss those crucial shots and for OC Plasma. Also dropping in for fun are 30 Assault Marines kitted to spit Plasma and engage in melee. ~78 bodies on the table. No armor either - which wasn't intentional per se, but does hilariously dial back enemy anti-tank weapons.
Seems fluffy for the Raptors though I am actually doing Mentors... same logo, amirite?! But seems good for them too, anyhow.
General idea here is that the Las and HBDev squads set up with the Lieutenant as a firebase, with the ISM nearby. The Shotty Squad all deploy up close, ideally in cover for the Camo perk, and unload with gross firepower after they move in close for the S5. Lias, the Sternguard and two MMDev squads deploy in 9" out in ideal positions - mostly for nuking nasty tanks and shooting up stuff with their Special Ammo, Plasma, and Lias's gross weapon. He gives nearby units (in 6") re-roll to-hits and +1" movement, too, so that is handy if the Scouts are nearby and need to get out of cover and into shotty range, plus the re-roll on MMs is nice so you don't miss those crucial shots and for OC Plasma. Also dropping in for fun are 30 Assault Marines kitted to spit Plasma and engage in melee. ~78 bodies on the table. No armor either - which wasn't intentional per se, but does hilariously dial back enemy anti-tank weapons.
Seems fluffy for the Raptors though I am actually doing Mentors... same logo, amirite?! But seems good for them too, anyhow.
Thoughts? Ideas? Did I miss anything?
I really like the idea of doing all infantry, it can truly negate the anti tank of your opponents and give space marines numbers.
My initial thoughts are:
-you would get more cp's just for doing a Battalion (6 total), rather than a spearhead and an outrider (5 total). Or, even more if you added one more HQ and did a Battallon+Outrider/Spearhead (7 total).
-I think you could better use the points instead of giving cloaks to your shotgun scouts. I imagine they will want to get in close to other units and probably won't be in cover for long. maybe switch them to snipers w/ cloaks (if you run a bunch of snipers it would be scary for their characters) or just shotguns without cloaks
-I think when using jump packs you get good value with the Vanguard Veterans. they go from 16/model to 18/model with jump packs, whereas assault marines go from 13/model to 16/model (a 3 point increase vs 2). my reasoning here is if you're willing to spend the money on thunderhammers then VV's are going to get +1 attack with a TH compared to regular assault marines. Plasma pistols on jump infantry is baller and I do like how cheap it can be on regular assault marines. I would suggest 1 assault marines squad with 3 plasma pistols as a cheaper throw away one, and then 2 VV squads with plasma and some upgraded melee (power swords are cheap and pretty strong, thunderhammer is fun on a sergeant or captain)
-I would add a captain with a jump pack to a squad of VV's so you can supercharge plasma's with impunity (reroll on 1's). captain is 93 points with a jump pack, so not too shabby and it would complete the battalion & spearhead detachments for you, giving you an extra CP too.
Overall, me like the list. Devastators and Assault Marines seem like they compliment each other nicely. Your MM's might have to advance around the board a lot, but they will be effective discouragement for vehicles to take the centre of the board.
So those are my initial thoughts, take it with a grain of salt though as I'm just getting back into the hobby. Cheers and let us know how it goes!
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Fruzzle wrote: what does everyone think about using landraiders/ storm ravens transport capacity to minimizes deployement whilst still being a bit msu. something like:
Captain
chaplain
3x tac squad with dual special(say 2x dual melta 1x dual plasma)
2x assault with dual flamer
grav dev squad
Crusader
redeemer
Raven
3 drops, pretty durable and toolbox firepower in the tank.
It's a good idea for Storm Ravens since you don't have to worry about them being blown up before you get your cargo out. If I was doing a Storm Raven, I'd toss an Ironclad in there with melee weapons. It's a beastly wrecking ball to let loose in someone's backfield.
I really like the idea of doing all infantry, it can truly negate the anti tank of your opponents and give space marines numbers.
My initial thoughts are:
-you would get more cp's just for doing a Battalion (6 total), rather than a spearhead and an outrider (5 total). Or, even more if you added one more HQ and did a Battallon+Outrider/Spearhead (7 total).
-I think you could better use the points instead of giving cloaks to your shotgun scouts. I imagine they will want to get in close to other units and probably won't be in cover for long. maybe switch them to snipers w/ cloaks (if you run a bunch of snipers it would be scary for their characters) or just shotguns without cloaks
-I think when using jump packs you get good value with the Vanguard Veterans. they go from 16/model to 18/model with jump packs, whereas assault marines go from 13/model to 16/model (a 3 point increase vs 2). my reasoning here is if you're willing to spend the money on thunderhammers then VV's are going to get +1 attack with a TH compared to regular assault marines. Plasma pistols on jump infantry is baller and I do like how cheap it can be on regular assault marines. I would suggest 1 assault marines squad with 3 plasma pistols as a cheaper throw away one, and then 2 VV squads with plasma and some upgraded melee (power swords are cheap and pretty strong, thunderhammer is fun on a sergeant or captain)
-I would add a captain with a jump pack to a squad of VV's so you can supercharge plasma's with impunity (reroll on 1's). captain is 93 points with a jump pack, so not too shabby and it would complete the battalion & spearhead detachments for you, giving you an extra CP too.
Overall, me like the list. Devastators and Assault Marines seem like they compliment each other nicely. Your MM's might have to advance around the board a lot, but they will be effective discouragement for vehicles to take the centre of the board.
So those are my initial thoughts, take it with a grain of salt though as I'm just getting back into the hobby. Cheers and let us know how it goes!
I think it is the cost issue with the VV that kept me from going that way. But of course, I could save points on the Scouts to maybe bump it. I just thought if I was deploying the Scouts out into cover near Lias, the +1" movement would help offset any penalties and they could jump out of cover and light stuff up.
Sniper Rifles don't wow me and cost a fair bit, but I might just need to see them in action.
Lias gives re-rolls, so the idea is to try to conga line out a bit and make sure he spreads his re-roll bubble as far as possible. I am not sure I could find the points for a Captain (though I can scrap the ISM and try to dig up points).
I will look at other detachments, but I don't see CP as being that huge. But again, I might need more practical time with it, as the theoretical with it seems less worthwhile.
And my MMDevs won't be advancing much I am guessing... because I fully expect that 5-man squad to vanish in retaliation one they first turn unload into an enemy tank!
Cephalobeard wrote:I cannot decide between Devastators or just mass Combi-Plasma Sternguard for Lias.
You could, realistically, either take 30 Combi-Plasma or 20 Combi-Plasma w/ an ancient and just blast things off the table turn one with them.
Devastators are good, and require less bodies, but I can't decide which tactic I prefer.
I am torn too. I have enough bodies though that I am likely going to try out other options. I just really wanted a chance to toss Devs on the table, because that hasn't been really viable in a long time.
Lias is just so awesome. I love the idea of Sternguard - even with just Special Ammo - coming in Rapid Fire range out of the gate. So brutal!
EDIT:
Another take on the Lias concept using some suggestions!
Cephalobeard wrote: I cannot decide between Devastators or just mass Combi-Plasma Sternguard for Lias.
You could, realistically, either take 30 Combi-Plasma or 20 Combi-Plasma w/ an ancient and just blast things off the table turn one with them.
Devastators are good, and require less bodies, but I can't decide which tactic I prefer.
I say whichever is cheaper. You know the unit(s) are going to be a priority target for the enemy. So they will probably die pretty fast after they deal their damage. But I will say that people often forget that Sternguard get two CC attacks which has won the day for me before.
Chaplain dreadnogut imho looks like a real winner, he's got 9 wounds so no issue of degradation, he's a character so he can be bubblewrapped and avoid being targettedfrom distance and both and invuln save AND a FNP roll.
He also has an Aura for buffing strength by 1 for everyone around him (including himself as with other aura's) meaning he'll be wounding t7 on a 2.
Not much more expensive than a tooled out captain and imho well worth taking if you want someone to wade into the enemy
Chaplain dreadnogut imho looks like a real winner, he's got 9 wounds so no issue of degradation, he's a character so he can be bubblewrapped and avoid being targettedfrom distance and both and invuln save AND a FNP roll.
He also has an Aura for buffing strength by 1 for everyone around him (including himself as with other aura's) meaning he'll be wounding t7 on a 2.
Not much more expensive than a tooled out captain and imho well worth taking if you want someone to wade into the enemy
Combine with Tyberos then to get S6, which means wounding GEQ on a 2+.
Chaplain dreadnogut imho looks like a real winner, he's got 9 wounds so no issue of degradation, he's a character so he can be bubblewrapped and avoid being targettedfrom distance and both and invuln save AND a FNP roll.
He also has an Aura for buffing strength by 1 for everyone around him (including himself as with other aura's) meaning he'll be wounding t7 on a 2.
Not much more expensive than a tooled out captain and imho well worth taking if you want someone to wade into the enemy
Combine with Tyberos then to get S6, which means wounding GEQ on a 2+.
Strength 12 Powerfists!
Strength 16 Dreadnoughts!
Smash up knights on 2's!
Could stick Tyberos, a Chaplain Dread and a squad of VV or Terminators into a Storm Raven for an almost guarunteed charge into whatever your opponent has that you REALLY want to punch to death.
Could stick Tyberos, a Chaplain Dread and a squad of VV or Terminators into a Storm Raven for an almost guarunteed charge into whatever your opponent has that you REALLY want to punch to death.
I propose we call it the "Shark Star"
Multiply then add unfortunately, Space Marine Powerfists would be Strength 10 (4*2)+2, Dreadnoughts Strength 14 (6*2)+2, so you'd still be wounding the Imperial Knights on 3's
Do we have a confirmation of multiply then add in the new rules, I haven't seen it myself.
Also just to add to the chaplain dread pain train, Helbrecht has the same aura, crusader squads backed by a dead chaplain and a golden armoured chapter master... I haven't a name for that yet lol
godardc wrote: So, I'm doing my list right now and I have some questions for you guys who have already played some games.
What do you think about some plasma pistols for the VV ? Like, 2 or 3. Now that they don't overheat anymore, are cheap and we choose the casualities. It seems a good idea to gey some more punch. The power axes seem better than the power mauls now, what a shame I modeled 4 with mauls
Tac squad seem really nerfed into oblivion this edition. They weren't particulary good before, but now they lost their 3+ armor (will usually get 4+ or 5+) and their AP5. I used to play 3, I won't anymore. As flamers are totally unplayable this edition, what weapons do you think I should give to my old flamer squad ? The others two already have plasma/combi plasma.
IIRC, a transport can transport several units, as long as it has the capacity. What do you think about two 5-men Tac squad with plasma/combi plasma in a drop pod ? 4 plasma weapons at rapid fire range, two units.
The chaplain seems to be buffed, his ability is an aura and isn't just for the first round anymore !
How do you plan to use your drop pods now ? I can't see myself using them with Tac squads and sternguard with combi are sooo expensive and I only have 1 sternguard unit
I think plasma pistols are better on them than melee weapons are. I would take a lot of them.
Tac squads are not great right now, however, flamers are amazing. D6 Auto hits is actually really strong, and wonderful in overwatch.
I think drop pods are too expensive for anything except sternguard and devastators, and then those are iffy.
Chaplains seem solid if you have 2+ assault units.
Actually, you make me think about devastators in drop pods, maybe with grav cannons, as they are heavy 4. Even with -1 to hit, they would hit several times. How does it works with a captain nearby ? Is a roll of 1 still considered a 1, or a 0 ? And a roll of 2 would be considered a 1, is that right ? How are flamer great ? A Tac squad with 2 flamers would get about 7 auto hit, that about only 3 dead orks... Speaking about orks, of a Tac squad with two flamers kill only about 7 orks in rapid fire range (3 for the flamers, 3 for the bolters, 1 for the heavy weapon), how are you handling hordes (termagaunts, orks, guards...) ?
Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
