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8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/03 19:25:51


Post by: Latro_


Ok since its all one big 'chaos' faction party was thinking of a thread to discuss chaos now the the nurglings are out of the bag re rules. (not sure there is another thread like this right?)

First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?

I'v been pondering and, the sword and the axe are a fortune, you might as well scrap em pay the 10pts for maleific talons... boom 7 attacks s7 -2 dm2.
Hear me out, not even bother with wings and make it a 'choose a god except khorne' for psychics
Still has a 8" move, unlike the daemons daemon prince is wounds 8 so can be hidden... keep him near your guys to re-roll 1's and buff units with prescience, also acts as a solid deny the witch on your lines and act as a counter assault unit if anything gets close.

all for 156pts


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/03 19:42:25


Post by: Loopstah


Wings, Khorne, Malefic Talons and run it behind a bunch of Rhino's full of Berzerkers.

With Wings it can keep up with the Rhinos and still avoid being shot due to having <10 wounds.

When eveything piles out of the Rhinos he's there to provide tasty re-rolls and smash face.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/03 19:57:23


Post by: Nightlord1987


Spawn and raptors seem to both provide LD and morale debuffs.

And I can't wait to try out the Heldrake slingshot.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/03 20:00:20


Post by: Freeman


Heldrake sling shot?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/03 22:29:33


Post by: Nightlord1987


Well, it moves 30 inches and can charge, so I'd say it can get close to 1st turn charges most of the time.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 02:50:28


Post by: mahddoc


 Latro_ wrote:

First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?


Good find regarding the wounds, i was trying to figure out why anyone would take a CSM prince.

The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).

Concerning close combat (Herald) Exalted Seeker Chariots are looking very good. Cheap, fast and tons of attacks.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 03:13:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, are Princes without wings actually viable now? If so, I'll go ahead and finish the metal one I'm putting together without any wings. If not, I need to go ahead and find a way to attach some wings. Shame the weapons cost so much, because both of mine are modelled with weapons rather than just claws (didn't matter before, I just thought it looked cooler!).

Also, can someone explain to me about the Soul Grinder's Warpclaw vs. Warp Sword? The claw says it makes 2 attack rolls for each attack on its profile. Does this mean double the number of attacks or roll twice and pick the best? The sword says it rerolls failed hit rolls, which is obvious what that means. Sorry if this is a silly question. Soul Grinders seem pretty good in 8th, but since I don't know what's good for the points I really don't know if they are worth taking.

Just a couple of sorta random things I noticed in the leaks:
Possessed are looking better, although the random number of attacks for them seems like it can bite you on the ass at precisely the wrong moment sometimes. At least they are cheaper now.

Be'lakor seems good, as he is cheaper than he was. With Invis gone, the main purpose of taking him has disappeared, but perhaps with his new special rules he could be good for buffing friendly Daemons and debuffing enemy leadership.

Overall it looks like Chaos is pretty solid. Since we can take Daemons and mortals in the same detachments (as long as they are devoted to the same god), there should be all kinds of list possibilities.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 03:42:11


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 04:05:28


Post by: Sincollector


 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?


Guardsmen are one of the targets he considered when considering available Chaos shooting units. He's saying that HB Havocs are best for shooting AT all of the things he listed.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 04:08:18


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


Sincollector wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?


Guardsmen are one of the targets he considered when considering available Chaos shooting units. He's saying that HB Havocs are best for shooting AT all of the things he listed.


Ah! Misread that entirely Carry on, then


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 07:29:20


Post by: dethric


mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I did some mathhammer too, although just against MEQ, I got this:
HvB Havocs: 0.0253 Damage per point with 4 HvB shooting
Plasma Chosen: 0.0255 Damage per point with 5 Plasmaguns shooting at 1/2 range.
Cultists: 0.0222 Damage per point with 35 Autoguns shooting at 1/2 range
CSM /w Bolter: 0.0170 Damage per point with 10 Bolters shooting at 1/2 range
Scarab Occult Termies: 0.0215 Damage Per point with 8 Combi Infernos, 2 Soulreapers and 2 Hellfyre racks shooting at half combi inferno range. Assuming Hellfyre Racks does 1 dmg.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 08:27:22


Post by: DarklyDreaming


What about ''Killing big guys''? We Csm always struggled against big vehicles, what about now? I've been looking for the best unit to take down an Imperial Knight (if we can kill it, we can kill everything) and the only decent option I found was the laser predator (prescience and rerolling ones...), considering that every assault HQ could be oneshot if the IK survives the charge.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 11:28:04


Post by: Casti


Played a couple of 8th games today. Mostly just muck around with units to try out.

A few key things i found
Nurglings: these disgusting pus balls are great at tying up shooting units. Had a squad tie up a predator tank for a few turns and 9 grey hunters for 6 fight phases, 3 model units. They suck pretty bad against dedicated units. I view them as 7th ed spawn, annoying and a good distraction unit.

Obliterators: they were solid as deepstrikers and put out acceptable damage on multiple wound vehicle units. They dont have enough shots to take out mass trash units.

Princes: tough enough but gotta steer away from multiple damage dealing hits. They still go down faster than a $2 hooker when facing dedicated cc units.

Bikes: being able to shoot the combi bolters and any special weapons is great, they but out alot of firepower and have great mobility and durability.

Terminators: nice and tough, though the game i used them in i was against 20 man blobs of necron warriors (they are very nasty). Still their durability has increased and the ability to fire the special weapon part of the combi bolter is fantastic.

Termie Lord: he was good, pretty tank if you take the "6+ ignore a wound warlord trait". The claw/chainfist is still a good multi threat combo. His reroll 1s to hit is a great buff both for himself and the other units near him.

Things i need to remember:
Alot of stuff does more than one wound in damage. I forgot that my chainfists and power fists do multiple wounds per hit, would have trashed the monolith alot faster.
Heavy weapons get a -1 to hit if you move, even on vehicles. So my vindi sat in the one spot to keep up the bs, mind you i tried charging with it, would have been funny if it managed to get into melee.

Awesome tip: when deploying, each player takes turns at placing units. Units that can deepstrike are "deployed" into deepstrike. This means that you can assign the units that you are deepstriking in first which allows you to see your opponents units on the table before you have to start placing your units on the table. hopefully that makes sense just allows you to react to their unit deploys before having to commit yours to the table top, pretty nice way to do things.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 11:52:30


Post by: Latro_


I wasnt sure on the fact reserves are counted as actually deploying? that takes the edge off alpha strike lists going first i guess.

One thing i'v been mulling over are sorcerers, the powers are actually pretty nasty if you link them with a lord in a rhino.

Rhino jumps forward guys get out
sorcerer fires off warp speed they move 6"
sorcer fires off prescience so hitting on 2's
your meltas are now real close hit on 2's and get a re-roll from the lord!
then you are obviously close so get a charge in!

thats 12" + 3" out + 6" move + 2d6 assault for a possible 23"-33"

problem is with the warpspeed the sor, lord and unit are separate units so its tricky


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 11:58:55


Post by: darthryan


Personaly loving the idea of 2 or 3 forgefiends/ helbrutes sat in backfield shooting with a warpsmith fixing them. With the regaining 1 wound a turn on the fiends each turn and a smith fixing them i can see them being very hard to shift


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 12:21:55


Post by: Casti


Unfortunately Latro, disembarking occurs before the transport can move, however the unit disembarking can move normally, so for marines you gotta cut 6" off that range


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 12:47:14


Post by: labmouse42


 Latro_ wrote:
First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?

I'v been pondering and, the sword and the axe are a fortune, you might as well scrap em pay the 10pts for maleific talons... boom 7 attacks s7 -2 dm2.
Hear me out, not even bother with wings and make it a 'choose a god except khorne' for psychics
Still has a 8" move, unlike the daemons daemon prince is wounds 8 so can be hidden... keep him near your guys to re-roll 1's and buff units with prescience, also acts as a solid deny the witch on your lines and act as a counter assault unit if anything gets close.

all for 156pts
The wings let you move over enemy models and through your own. It's a pretty solid upgrade. I've been running with mine that way. There is a big difference between a very reliable 14" charge and 18" charge. It also lets them assault flyers. Who does not love your DP flying up and ripping a storm talon from the air?
IMHO the Chaos Daemon princes from the back of the book are much better beatsticks than the CSM ones. They can be targeted, but the Tzeentch one gets a 4++ and the Nurgle one gets disgusting resilience.
I played 4 games with my chaos daemons this weekend and the princes have been the all-stars of my army.

mahddoc wrote:
Good find regarding the wounds, i was trying to figure out why anyone would take a CSM prince.

Concerning close combat (Herald) Exalted Seeker Chariots are looking very good. Cheap, fast and tons of attacks.
Princes have 7 STR 7 attacks with -2 rend that do 2 damage each, rerolling 1's to hit. Daemon princes do not degrade as they take damage.
If you don't care about being targeted, you can grab a CD prince to get more wounds and unlock the daemon buffs -- but you do lose the ability to buff CSM, so that depends on your army.
That said, exalted seeker chariots are nasty. They are fast, can also smite, and buff themselves to STR 5 claws.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 13:13:06


Post by: Brometheus


I have about 10+ games of 8th with various Thousand Sons-themed lists since Wednesday against a variety of opponents.

I don't use Obliterators, but other guys do. They are more effective as a shield for a buffing character in your deployment zone. With a 24" weapon and no bonus to being closer to the enemy, there is no reason to teleport in. With their small footprint, you can easily fit them in cover (and should). 9 wounds at 1+ isn't going anywhere unless you suck at rolling saves. Teleporting them closer is just giving them to your enemy.

Forgefiend is serious business. Put Prescience on it. Use a Command Re-roll to get the power off- it's worth it.

Terminators or Scarab Occult Terminators for a turn 1 charge is important. Don't forget to use your Command Re-roll.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 14:11:18


Post by: buddha


Chaos terminators choice problem. Do I take combi melta or plasma? Hard choice because they want to be close so melts is quite deadly but plasma in general is awesome this edition. Thoughts?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 14:15:21


Post by: Latro_


Casti wrote:
Unfortunately Latro, disembarking occurs before the transport can move, however the unit disembarking can move normally, so for marines you gotta cut 6" off that range


ah yea, still viable-ish


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 14:31:00


Post by: mahddoc


 buddha wrote:
Chaos terminators choice problem. Do I take combi melta or plasma? Hard choice because they want to be close so melts is quite deadly but plasma in general is awesome this edition. Thoughts?


I think plasma is the way to go, you can always overcharge if need/want. The biggest benefit i guess is being able to deepstrike in 9-12 to rapidfire both bolter and plasma. Plasma is also useful against most targets, a melta is often overkill.
If my math doesn't fail me they look really promising. Of course point for point they lose to chosen in offense but they should be able to handle return fire quite well and can deep strike.

One big thing to consider, we haven't seen the rules from the Forgeworld books. There might be some fun toys in the first chaos book but even more so the Astra Militarum(includes renegades) book which should be out by the end of the month.
AM looks very strong right now and i guess/hope renegades might give us some of their nice stuff. The AM tactic thread is on fire right now with people finding new and exciting ways to blast enemies of the board.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 15:05:14


Post by: Rydria


I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.

The masque also seems ridiculously good, -1 hit is very powerful


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 15:44:49


Post by: Darkseid


 Rydria wrote:
I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.


They lose the bonus attack once they fall below 30 models, right? In that case I dont think it is worth it.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 16:04:02


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I don't suppose anyone's done a spreadsheet of chaos points costs yet?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 16:08:26


Post by: zephel


The issue I found with a blob of 30 is once they get into the charge, it is kind of hard to get all of em to attack at once because of needing to be within 1"


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 16:20:31


Post by: TonyH122


I just wanted to get a conversation started on non-god Elites

Chosen.

They're looking pretty good in this addition, and I imagine that the standard builds from 7th will be great, with more options opening up. The following set ups look good to me, but I'd love to hear what you guys think:

Min Dakka Chosen
6x Chosen: 5x Plasma Guns, 1x Plasma Pistol - 161pts (maybe + Rhino)

Max Dakka Chosen
10x Chosen: 1x Power Sword, 5x Plasma Guns, 1x Plasma Pistol - 236pts + Rhino
(the power sword is cheap, and makes charging them more of a price)

Assault Chosen
10x Chosen: 1x Icon of Wrath, 1x Powerfist, 4x Powerswords, 1x Plasma Pistol - 203pts + Rhino


But do you think these are good set ups? I'm particularly excited about the Assault Chosen, which look like tremendous fun. But do you think this set up competes with Possessed, Multilators, and Khorne Berzerkers?


Terminators

Terminators are in an interesting situation, as with the 5 min squad suicide is basically out. I think 10x squads are just too big, and 5x is the best size. I think that the basic set up is:

Standard Terminators
5x Terminators: 3x Axe + Comi-X, 2x Chainfist + Combi-X - c. 300pts (X = Mela for tanks, Plasma for MEQs, and Flamer for Horde, although you might only want 2x or 3x Flamer for the last set up, and the rest plasma, or else it's overkill)

The question here is whether Melta or Plasma is best against MEQs. What do we think?


Helbrutes

The Helbrute seems to have much more flexibility, but I was thinking the follow would be the basic set ups:

Tank Buster Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Helbrute Fist, 1x Multi-Melta (139)

Dakka Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Lascannon, 1x Missile Launcher (147)

Flexible Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Helbrute Plasma Cannon, 1x Power Scourge (145)

Of these, I quite like the third. But what are your thoughts?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 16:45:44


Post by: mahddoc


TonyH122 wrote:
I just wanted to get a conversation started on non-god Elites
Chosen.

Don't forget combi weapons are not "one use" anymore and you can shoot both at the same time.
TonyH122 wrote:
Terminators
The question here is whether Melta or Plasma is best against MEQs. What do we think?

Plasma all the way against MEQ. Overchage if you have rerolls with you to kill bigger stuff.
TonyH122 wrote:
Helbrutes

They get expensive quite fast, Twin HB + Scourge looks also quite appealing to me.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 16:51:39


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 17:20:50


Post by: Loopstah


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


Edit: Thought no but on a re-read yes you can.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 17:22:14


Post by: TonyH122


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


That's a fascinating case. It says that you can replace the starting Fist with a Scourge. So that's fine. But you can replace the Multi-Melta with a Fist, and it says "This model may replace its Helbrute fist with a Helbrute Hammer or Power Scourge". Contrast this where it says just above "This model may replace one Helbrute fist with a missile Launcher."

But then the issue is whether, without any specification for having two (like Lightning Claws and Malefic Claws), you get the benefit twice.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 17:34:19


Post by: Loopstah


Actually re-reading it, yes it can take two fists and swap them both out.

Taking two Power Scourges is pretty effective as you get +6 attacks.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 17:39:44


Post by: labmouse42


Given their base attacks, I don't think another CCW would really be all that great.
I also don't think you get an extra attack for an extra CCW. The datacards specifically say if a model can get an extra attack -- such as in the case of chainswords.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 18:06:51


Post by: mahddoc


Loopstah wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


Edit: Thought no but on a re-read yes you can.


Pure RAW probably.
But why wouldn't it say that you can replace your multimelta with a power scourge. I am hoping it is possible but until then i won't start ripping of arms.

Back onto an important topic:
What to take to get some model count in. Daemons look very promising. Bring the shooty stuff from CSM and get some numbers from CD.

Also in the deathguard entry, the champion can take a Plasma Gun? Not Pistol?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 18:08:46


Post by: Rydria


Loopstah wrote:
Actually re-reading it, yes it can take two fists and swap them both out.

Taking two Power Scourges is pretty effective as you get +6 attacks.
+7 they get 1 for having 2 close combat weapons too (from there own datasheet)


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 18:27:49


Post by: Gordon Shumway


So 11 str 8, -2ap, 2 Damage attacks for 158 pts? Seems like a steal. Too bad they can't deepstrike.

Heh, 22 attacks if lucky on the crazed roll.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 18:58:13


Post by: Loopstah


Well now I know how to build my World Eater Helbrutes.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 19:34:31


Post by: Latro_


Here is how my IW conversion from 7th is taking shape 1850pts but it translaters to 2000pts - which it prob the new norm

Only new model i need to get is a sorcerer
Spoiler:

Battalion
Chaos Lord 77 hq

Bolt Pistol, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Sigil

Sorcerer 158 hq
Terminator Armour, Combi-Bolter, Force Axe

10 Chaos Space Marines 153 t
Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Frag, Krak, Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter
Asp Champ: Bolter

5 Chaos Space Marines 94 t
Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 1x Flamer, Bolters
Asp Champ: Power fist

5 Chaos Space Marines 74 t
Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 1x Flamer, Bolters
Asp Champ: Bolter

3 Obilitertors 195 hs

8 Havocs 192 hs
Bolt Pistols CCWs, Frag, Krak, 4x Meltaguns
Asp Champ: Power fist

8 Havocs 204 hs
Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 4x Lascannons
Asp Champ: Bolter

Helbrute 164 e
Twin Lascannon, Helbrute Fist, Combi-Bolter

Rhino 72
Twin Bolter

Rhino 72
Twin Bolter

Super Heavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight 544 low

Ion Shield, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannons, 2x Heavy Flamers


Things i'v noticed/spotted:
Battalion is actually really annoying to fill the slots for, its deceptive you think its the new combines arms but you you need 3 troops and 2 hq, that second hq for me is a pain but oh well.
Battleforged gets you 3cps as standard! so this army has 6 - kinda nice fit, re-roll a turn
Sorcerers don't have an inv! i'v taken a risk and put one in termi army to drop with the obilts or where needed... its not the most efficient but meh - needed that second bloody hq.
Lords are cheap bare bones, have the 4++ the re-roll of 1's and quite tough!
Although i took it out power mauls, and combi bolters are dirt cheap... worth chucking on asp champs if you have the pts (which you do with loads of odd numbered pts). Combi bolters esp at 2 pts its rapid fire 2 so thats 4 shots at 12"!
Interesting if ye not interested in the heavy wep or other options you can run units at 5 guys and pack them both into the same transport for funs, free asp champs and meeting force org slots. Both going in the rhino is really hard to get ye head around after 19 years of it not being an option!
Not too fussed i built my knights with dul weapons now instead of the CCws... read titanic feet! 3 attacks per swing... so 4 attacks = 12 s8 -2 d3 dam... screw the reaper chainsword!

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 20:02:01


Post by: Debilitate


What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.

The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 20:34:06


Post by: stormcraft


 Latro_ wrote:

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes


naaa, i think you were right. it reads "make 3 hit rolls per attack". 3 hit roll can hit 3 guys, its 3 hits, not 3 dmg.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 20:58:05


Post by: Latro_


stormcraft wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes


naaa, i think you were right. it reads "make 3 hit rolls per attack". 3 hit roll can hit 3 guys, its 3 hits, not 3 dmg.


well kinda right then, i guess its still 4 attacks not 12, you just get 3 hits per one attack hit... which i'm not sure if thats mathematically better than 12 attacks... sure makes cmd points useful


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/04 23:46:59


Post by: TonyH122


Just regarding larger (10x) Chosen plasma squads, I just realised that the champion can also take a combi-plasma. So, if I read this right, four chosen can take a combi-plasma, another extra one can too, as can the champion. So we can now get 6x combi-plasma in the same squad. Do you think this is the best way to go with the champion, or do you think a power sword and plasma pistol would be better for flexibility?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 00:36:10


Post by: Lowhole


What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 01:50:33


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 02:36:01


Post by: Rydria


What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:07:16


Post by: Nightlord1987


I have a whole bunch of power Swords too, that I was tempted to try this out with, unfortunately I think Loyalists may have a better time with it. They seem too expensive as a suicide unit, and without an apothecary may not ever function.

But most likely I will build one, just as a rule of cool.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:15:28


Post by: Sersi


 Rydria wrote:
I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.

The masque also seems ridiculously good, -1 hit is very powerful


Its not worth it. The Units is to large to bring down with Daemonic Ritual, and won't make it across the board with 20 models remaining. Plus at 20 models there already getting unwieldy to maneuver. Taking more 15-20 models units is a better choice. If you coordinate right and dual charge two units could easily be in range of a herald for +1S which while not as good as getting more rends is still great.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:16:08


Post by: saint_red


 Rydria wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.


Power sword chosen will be good. Take a unit of 10 and anyone who doesn't take a power sword takes a chainsword and bolt pistol. Stick them all in a Rhino and you've got a unit that can chew through MEQs and below for a reasonable price. A squad of 6 works too because you can take a Lord or Apostle along to improve your combat abilities.

It's also worth nothing that Fallen are almost identical to Chosen except that Chosen are 2ppm more expensive and have the <Legion> keyword.


I'm wondering what people are thinking for their ranged fire support? The options seem to be Predators, Forgefiends and Havocs with missiles/lascannons or maybe autocannons. I'm thinking Predators with the autocannon and lascannon sponsons as it's more survivable than the Havocs and has better damage than the Forgefiend.




8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:31:02


Post by: luke1705


Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:41:11


Post by: Sersi


 Rydria wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.


What, makes Palatine Blades good though is they can take Jump packs and Eidolon with his thunder hammer. Sadly, vanguard vet do it better.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:55:10


Post by: Lowhole


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.



well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 03:58:20


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lowhole wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.



well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army


It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 04:28:45


Post by: Lowhole


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lowhole wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.



well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army


It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.


meh, wouldn't want to go that rout anyways

was hoping to run something like cypher 3 units of fallen in rhinos chaos lord 3 units of havocs and some filler but that idea is out the window now
it would have been fun to play and would have been something different on tabel top that you dont usually see


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 04:37:43


Post by: SeraphimXIX


Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 05:47:43


Post by: ZergSmasher


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.


To me, it looks like the Music of the Apocalypse triggers even if the model dies to a shooting attack. Meaning dead Noise Marines get one final shot before they disappear. I think that's pretty good, especially if the model has a Blastmaster or Doom Siren. They don't have to be kitted out for melee at all; they can even shoot their weapons into an enemy they are locked in combat with. That doesn't suck; it's awesome!

I might have to agree on the Daemon side, though. Attacking first is a situational thing, but when it works, I'm sure it's spicy.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 07:19:51


Post by: Latro_


 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


As unfluffy as it is you can rock a sorcerer and whack warp time on them for a an extra 6" move.
FW book is coming claw pods will be in it
can be lucky with rolls (maybe use cmd for a re-roll, not sure you can do this thou at this stage) to pick the deployment type most favouring assault armies
send fast stuff like a massive line of fleshhounds forward to tie stuff up or deep strike stuff like termies in for the same tactic
lord of skulls or something and literally hide them behind it



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 07:25:17


Post by: Sersi


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.




Well it could have been worse. While the mark is underwhelming and the icon highly situational. Noise marines are still damn good this edition compared to years past. We've been freed of the Salvo rule, and have a Assault 3 bolter. That's three S4 shots at up to 24", that's a lot better than a tactical marines bolter, and it ignores cover. The Blastmaster lost some effectiveness against power armored marines, but got better against terminators and multi-wound models. You can still take a Blastmaster in a MSU unit and camp and objective from range. Or exchange those bolters for a chainsword and they're have 3 attacks each. The Noise Champion has 3 base attacks with either a special melee weapon upgrade, or 4 with a free chainsword. So, 31 attacks in melee from 10 marines costing 160 pts, and they have DTTFE for a bonus attack on a 6+; or a 5+ with their icon for +10 pts. that's before counting combos like: character auras, psychic buffs, and command points.

Mono-Slaanesh fight the same as always. Fast units: flying DP's, Fiends, Seekers, Chariots, Maulerfiends, Raptors and Bike race up the board to draw fire and lock down shooting units. While slower units come in out of reserves in support. Only it's even better in that now that Chaos Marines finally has scatter mitigation, and worse that you can no longer drop daemons wherever you like. But we have much more flexibility with Daemonic Ritual. Need a few fiends to lock that character or shooting unit in combat? I personally, intend to recreate might old Lustwing army with terminators, and oblits coming in turn one. While the fast assaulter rush up a flank. Then turn two the attached Lord and Sorcerer with the terminator drop mass summon to support the assault. With either Havoks, Noise Marines or some Predators as support.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 08:12:34


Post by: SeraphimXIX


I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 08:30:52


Post by: Nightlord1987


Lowhole wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lowhole wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play


They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.



well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army


It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.


meh, wouldn't want to go that rout anyways

was hoping to run something like cypher 3 units of fallen in rhinos chaos lord 3 units of havocs and some filler but that idea is out the window now
it would have been fun to play and would have been something different on tabel top that you dont usually see


Could always just not use Fallen datasheet, use Chaos Space Marines or even Loyalists, and add Cypher in.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 09:57:10


Post by: dethric


On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.

Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.

Raw/Unreadable data:
Spoiler:
T8 3+ ----------------Unit: ------------------------------------Points ----------------Shots ----------------DMG/shot WPP
0,1851851852 ----------------Plasma Chosen ----------------145 ----------------10 ----------------1---------------- 0,0127713921
0,1111111111---------------- AC Havocs* ----------------145 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0122605364
0,0277777778 ----------------Cultists---------------- 150 ----------------60 ----------------1 ----------------0,0111111111
0,3703703704 ----------------LC Havocs* ----------------165 ----------------4 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0314253648
0,3703703704 ----------------LC/LC Pred ----------------202 ----------------4 ----------------3,5---------------- 0,0256692336
0,1388888889 ----------------Tri Ecto Ffiend ----------------197 ----------------6 ----------------2---------------- 0,0084602369
0,125 ---------------------Twin Hades Ffiend ----------------185 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0108108108
0,2222222222 ----------------Oblits ----------------195 ----------------6 ---------------2---------------- 0,0136752137
0,3703703704 ----------------Vindicator ----------------160 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0162037037
0,1728395062 ----------------PM /w B Launcher* ----------------136 ----------------4 ----------------2 ----------------0,0101670298
0,2777777778 ----------------LC/ML Helbrute** ----------------147 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0198941799
0,1111111111---------------- HvB havocs* ----------------105 ----------------16 ----------------1 ----------------0,0169312169

*Fully Equipped Squads, but Boltguns does not shoot
**Missile Launcher not in calculation except for Wounds per point and point cost



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 10:28:18


Post by: zerosignal


Quick note on deployment - as mentioned above, putting your guys in teleportarium/ orbit counts as a deployed unit.

Unsure on this - but given you could put two 5-man units in a rhino - deploying the rhino counts as a single unit deployed (whilst effectively giving you 3 units deployed at once) - is rhino/MSU/deepstrike a really good way to break the 'going first' rule?

And also getting to deploy after your opponent?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 10:30:15


Post by: TonyH122


dethric wrote:
On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.

Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.

Raw/Unreadable data:
Spoiler:
T8 3+ ----------------Unit: ------------------------------------Points ----------------Shots ----------------DMG/shot WPP
0,1851851852 ----------------Plasma Chosen ----------------145 ----------------10 ----------------1---------------- 0,0127713921
0,1111111111---------------- AC Havocs* ----------------145 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0122605364
0,0277777778 ----------------Cultists---------------- 150 ----------------60 ----------------1 ----------------0,0111111111
0,3703703704 ----------------LC Havocs* ----------------165 ----------------4 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0314253648
0,3703703704 ----------------LC/LC Pred ----------------202 ----------------4 ----------------3,5---------------- 0,0256692336
0,1388888889 ----------------Tri Ecto Ffiend ----------------197 ----------------6 ----------------2---------------- 0,0084602369
0,125 ---------------------Twin Hades Ffiend ----------------185 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0108108108
0,2222222222 ----------------Oblits ----------------195 ----------------6 ---------------2---------------- 0,0136752137
0,3703703704 ----------------Vindicator ----------------160 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0162037037
0,1728395062 ----------------PM /w B Launcher* ----------------136 ----------------4 ----------------2 ----------------0,0101670298
0,2777777778 ----------------LC/ML Helbrute** ----------------147 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0198941799
0,1111111111---------------- HvB havocs* ----------------105 ----------------16 ----------------1 ----------------0,0169312169

*Fully Equipped Squads, but Boltguns does not shoot
**Missile Launcher not in calculation except for Wounds per point and point cost



I'm interested as to how this bears on the Power Sword vs Power Axe debate. You say that AP and S>T is important, and this is exactly the Sword vs Axe difference. Is one substantially better than the other vs MEQs and TEQs?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 11:13:46


Post by: sushi2001


On daemons.
I played against a small list of Tzeentch daemons. They dish out mortal wounds.
Daemon Prince: picks on lonely fast moving units like bikes and warpspawn/daemonhosts that get ahead then jumping back into a pink horror unit.
Pink horrors: throw a bunch of dice and can do some wounds. Tzeentch Fish: Have become very weak as they die fast.

New things that started to get real good is:
Flocking enemy fliers with helldrake and gangbanging them to death.
Tonnes of power armoured dudes with all types of weapons with psyker support.
Spamming Hellbrutes now works as they are versatile and can kick things in cqc.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 11:20:43


Post by: dethric


TonyH122 wrote:


I'm interested as to how this bears on the Power Sword vs Power Axe debate. You say that AP and S>T is important, and this is exactly the Sword vs Axe difference. Is one substantially better than the other vs MEQs and TEQs?

Math inside:
Spoiler:

Assuming one hit with the following:
Power Sword: 4 points, S4, Ap -3 D1
Power Axe: 5 points, S5, Ap -2, D1
Gives:
Sword Against MEQ:
2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound, 5/6 to pass armour, divided by point cost of four, gives 0.069 damage per point, 0.27 damage per swing.
Swords against TEQ:
2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound, 2/3 to pass armour, divided by point cost of four gives 0.0555 damage per point, 0,22 damage per swing
Axe against MEQ :
2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound, 2/3 to pass armour, divided by point cost of five gives 0,0592 damage per point 0,29 damage per swing.
Axe against TEQ
2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound, 1/2 to pass armour, divided by point cost of five gives 0,0444 damage per point 0,22 damage per swing.

The Axe is better against MEQ in total wounds caused per axe, but the Sword does better damage per point.
Both are equal against TEQ, but the sword does better damage per point.

TLR: Swords seems better, but if you have <5 points left at the end, upgrade up to 4 swords to axes.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 13:48:14


Post by: Sersi


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 14:18:57


Post by: undertow


About Kairos, it looks like he doesn't have the 'Ephemeral Form' rule that all other Tzeentch Daemons have. Does this mean he only has a 5++? I'm going to miss him having that 3++ that he's had since 5th Ed. He was always one of my favorites. However, it does look like his CC abilities were solidly buffed.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 14:36:15


Post by: Sersi


Debilitate wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.

The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.


Eh... There alright but a unit of 5 will only kill 4-5 marines on average. But they cost as much as 24 daemonettes, which kill 10-11 marines average, and have 9 more wounds. Or 11 Seekers with 7 more wounds. They're still useful in conjunction with other units with their preventing units from falling back. But they cost 8 pts more than last edition and they weren't great then. Going back to Daemonettes or Seekers vs Fiends. Their being T4 doesn't account for much, even 10 bolters in rapid fire range will kill 2 Fiends vs 7 Daemonettes or 3 Seekers; while costing 23 pts more. Finally, now that they have multi-damage weapons their better at killing vehicles and multi-wound models; against 1 wound models they're wasted.

CORRECTION:

Chaos Lords that take Daemonic Mounts gain the Daemon Keyword so they are effected auras that benefit their patrons daemons. But...it would waste their aura if they are taken in a Daemon unit, as their aura is effects <LEGION> not "DAEMON". So for example a Slaanesh Lord on a Steed near unit of Seekers and a mounted Herald would benefit from +1 strength; and the can advance and charge with a ~32" threat range. But only he would benefit from his re-rolling 1's to hit.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 14:51:12


Post by: Captyn_Bob


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/05/forge-world-preview-indexes/

Brass scorpion previewed. Looks brutal. Power level is quite high tho. And less wounds than a knight makes me sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jump packs allowed in Spartan!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 15:03:08


Post by: Latro_


What you guys thinking about summoning? the whole not moving thing seems to be a real PITA, however once summoned, i can't actually see anything that stops said summoned unit from moving as well as charging!

Another thing is it looks on the face of it you can summon if you are locked in close combat...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 15:22:06


Post by: astro_nomicon


The more i think about it, the more I feel like daemons got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard. More like beaten over the head with the nerf club. Brutalized with the nerf maul.

Completely removing free points was a good thing. Make no mistake about that. However, summoning was one of a handful of gimmicks keeping Daemons competitive. The pendulum has swung so far now that summoning seems like a completely fruitless endeavor. Coupled with the gutting, excuse me, reworking of the psychic phase, general lack of defensive synergy buffs, points increases, side graded offensive performance, loss of army wide deep strike (just when it finally became awesome too!) and near total lack of customization options. . . Well it doesn't look good.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 15:46:04


Post by: Latro_


I think there are some hidden tricks to it, like being able to do it in combat and the fact its any 'chaos' character that can summon.

If you have like a chaos lord in CC, hes not moving in the movement phase and 3d6 5 or under and you can place 10 blood letters nearby... from what i can see nothing stops them moving and then assaulting.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 15:50:35


Post by: Milkshaker


Did you guys notice that Death guard army lists can't take a lot of options that I would personally have expected?

Terminators, Havocs and Heldrakes come to mind especially. Any reason why this is? hopefully because these roles will be filled by new units that havent been announced yet.

What are good replacements using the death guard army list for these units?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 16:01:37


Post by: TonyH122


What are people thinking about the loadout for Raptors? Do we think that Plasmaguns or Meltaguns are the way to go? I feel that while Plasma is better for CSM and Chosen, as they like a longer range, Raptors have the ability either to deep strike or fly in close and personal, making Meltas more attractive. Although whether they outperform plasma ... I'd be interested to hear what you guys think. And does it make a difference as to whether they're in 5x squads or 10x?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 16:04:53


Post by: Sincollector


dethric wrote:
On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.

Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.

Raw/Unreadable data:
Spoiler:
T8 3+ ----------------Unit: ------------------------------------Points ----------------Shots ----------------DMG/shot WPP
0,1851851852 ----------------Plasma Chosen ----------------145 ----------------10 ----------------1---------------- 0,0127713921
0,1111111111---------------- AC Havocs* ----------------145 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0122605364
0,0277777778 ----------------Cultists---------------- 150 ----------------60 ----------------1 ----------------0,0111111111
0,3703703704 ----------------LC Havocs* ----------------165 ----------------4 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0314253648
0,3703703704 ----------------LC/LC Pred ----------------202 ----------------4 ----------------3,5---------------- 0,0256692336
0,1388888889 ----------------Tri Ecto Ffiend ----------------197 ----------------6 ----------------2---------------- 0,0084602369
0,125 ---------------------Twin Hades Ffiend ----------------185 ----------------8 ----------------2 ----------------0,0108108108
0,2222222222 ----------------Oblits ----------------195 ----------------6 ---------------2---------------- 0,0136752137
0,3703703704 ----------------Vindicator ----------------160 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0162037037
0,1728395062 ----------------PM /w B Launcher* ----------------136 ----------------4 ----------------2 ----------------0,0101670298
0,2777777778 ----------------LC/ML Helbrute** ----------------147 ----------------2 ----------------3,5 ----------------0,0198941799
0,1111111111---------------- HvB havocs* ----------------105 ----------------16 ----------------1 ----------------0,0169312169

*Fully Equipped Squads, but Boltguns does not shoot
**Missile Launcher not in calculation except for Wounds per point and point cost



For that price difference, the Predator wins hands down due to its toughness. If the Havocs take two wounds, they've lost a quarter of their lascannons. After five wounds, the Havocs are gone and the Predator will still be firing all 4 lascannons.

Wish I owned a single Chaos Pred. I'm not sure I've ever even seen one on the table.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 16:12:34


Post by: CrownAxe


 Sersi wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:
I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.

This doesn't make since that is literally the same thing as just rerolling to hit with the warp sword except is worded completely differently.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 16:23:01


Post by: SeraphimXIX


 Sersi wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:
I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
Isn't that just "re-roll failed to hits with this weapon" then?

Like that's even how the ability for the item below it is written. What's the distinction between the two abilities?


Edit: Regarding summoning, it's not Totally useless. The thing about summoning is that unlike reinforcements there is no restriction for distance from enemy units.

So you can summon a unit like 5 inches away and then charge with it that very turn. Thats better then reinforcement.- the only downside is the chance of not getting your cast through.

As far as the overall state of daemons, we got needed heavily but it's mostly from the Rule of One and psychic powers in general being pretty underwhelming. We are a heavily psychic army and without powers alot of our stuff is basically generic horde type things. Grey Knights players I've been talking to are saying their army is having similar issues.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 16:28:15


Post by: Debilitate


 Sersi wrote:
Debilitate wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.

The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.


Eh... There alright but a unit of 5 will only kill 4-5 marines on average. But they cost as much as 24 daemonettes, which kill 10-11 marines average, and have 9 more wounds. Or 11 Seekers with 7 more wounds. They're still useful in conjunction with other units with their preventing units from falling back. But they cost 8 pts more than last edition and they weren't great then. Going back to Daemonettes or Seekers vs Fiends. Their being T4 doesn't account for much, even 10 bolters in rapid fire range will kill 2 Fiends vs 7 Daemonettes or 3 Seekers; while costing 23 pts more. Finally, now that they have multi-damage weapons their better at killing vehicles and multi-wound models; against 1 wound models they're wasted.\

I wouldn't take a Chaos Lord with a unit of daemons anyway since it wastes his aura ability. But it you really wanted to, a Lord on a steed can at least advance and charge along with a unit of Seekers.


Thanks. I was planning on using them as sponges for the Lord (since Bikes don't seem quite as good at that this time around) while some Noise Marines or CSM in Rhino's followup and eventually get out to receive the Lord's buff. Sounds like Seekers or Daemonettes (especially Daemonettes - you can get a huge amount of them for not a lot of points) might be the way to go.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/05 17:42:01


Post by: Melionodr


 SeraphimXIX wrote:
 Sersi wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:
I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
Isn't that just "re-roll failed to hits with this weapon" then?

Like that's even how the ability for the item below it is written. What's the distinction between the two abilities?


Edit: Regarding summoning, it's not Totally useless. The thing about summoning is that unlike reinforcements there is no restriction for distance from enemy units.

So you can summon a unit like 5 inches away and then charge with it that very turn. Thats better then reinforcement.- the only downside is the chance of not getting your cast through.

As far as the overall state of daemons, we got needed heavily but it's mostly from the Rule of One and psychic powers in general being pretty underwhelming. We are a heavily psychic army and without powers alot of our stuff is basically generic horde type things. Grey Knights players I've been talking to are saying their army is having similar issues.



Of course summoning has a range limitation. 12" from the summoner, 9" away from enemies


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 00:52:45


Post by: saint_red


Summoning also happens at the END of the movement phase, so summoned units can definitely NOT move or advance. It follows the exact same rules as deep strike/teleport etc.

There are three main benefits of summoning. First, you can list tailor on the fly just like you could in 7th. This isn't that interesting in pick up or friendly games but gets important when thinking about more competitive settings. The second is letting your Daemons semi-deep strike. At the worst this lets you avoid the first turn of shooting. Finally, you can have your army built on the <Legion> keyword and still take Daemons, but without the codices this doesn't matter yet.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 04:04:59


Post by: ZergSmasher


I'm wondering if Cypher and the Fallen might be viable even without being able to ride in a transport. I would think at the very least Fallen might be a slightly cheaper alternative to Chosen, and Cypher himself seems pretty nasty for his points. You could even take a whole Vanguard detachment of Fallen (Cypher and 3 units) and get a command point from it.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 06:04:26


Post by: Latro_


Well the thing is the summoning rules do not say the end of 'the' movement phase they say 'thier' movement phase referencing the character making the ritual.

There is a small raw argument there it's not the movement phase as a whole.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 06:13:06


Post by: saint_red


 Latro_ wrote:
Well the thing is the summoning rules do not say the end of 'the' movement phase they say 'thier' movement phase referencing the character making the ritual.

There is a small raw argument there it's not the movement phase as a whole.


The rulebook explicitly states that they use their entire movement phase when they are deployed. You can absolutely not move or advance after arriving from reserves.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 06:37:41


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?


Large fast movers that are scary in CC (Mauler Fiends). Move everthing up, advance the enemy will take those things out first usually, or they will regret it later.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 06:57:24


Post by: Loopstah


Heldrakes with Baleflamer or Autocannon?
Forgefiends with Ectoplasma or Autocannon?

Is it worth sticking 2x 5 man Zerker squads in a Rhino to get extra plasma/ champ weapons rather than one 10 man squad?

Are possessed worth taking now?

Is anyone planning on sunmoning or just starting daemons on the board?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 07:04:12


Post by: Sersi


 CrownAxe wrote:
 Sersi wrote:
 SeraphimXIX wrote:
I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa


No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.

This doesn't make since that is literally the same thing as just rerolling to hit with the warp sword except is worded completely differently.


Oh, I agree with you. But rolling to hit twice doesn't logical equate to attacking twice.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 07:15:42


Post by: saint_red


Loopstah wrote:
Heldrakes with Baleflamer or Autocannon?
Forgefiends with Ectoplasma or Autocannon?

Is it worth sticking 2x 5 man Zerker squads in a Rhino to get extra plasma/ champ weapons rather than one 10 man squad?

Are possessed worth taking now?

Is anyone planning on sunmoning or just starting daemons on the board?


Ectoplasma is bad on FFs, I would take autocannons still. Predators with autocannon and lascannon sponsons fill the same role slightly better though imo.

2x5 man squads is slightly worse because of alternate activating. Even if you charge both units your opponent can use the counter attack stratagem after the first unit goes and kill the second unit before they strike. Also because units can overwatch multiple times, if they somehow kill the first unit then they get to fire at the second one as well.

Possessed are worse than Zerkers unless you think you'll need your invuln or you can benefit from buffs that affect <Daemons>


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 11:16:16


Post by: Neferhet


TonyH122 wrote:
What are people thinking about the loadout for Raptors? Do we think that Plasmaguns or Meltaguns are the way to go? I feel that while Plasma is better for CSM and Chosen, as they like a longer range, Raptors have the ability either to deep strike or fly in close and personal, making Meltas more attractive. Although whether they outperform plasma ... I'd be interested to hear what you guys think. And does it make a difference as to whether they're in 5x squads or 10x?


Hi.
I've used raptors with quite good results against (primaris) marines.
I've taken 2 units of 5 with dual plasma pistol on the champion and dual plasmagun. Paired with a cheap jump lord (with plasma pistol ) for that nice reroll when you decide to go nuts and overcharge everything, they can pack a punch. at 125 pts per unit its not bad. Just deepstrike 12" from the enemy and dakka them to death! With a lord support they defend themselves in melee (2 plasma pistols are still going to be a nuisance) but they are not a specialized melee unit, imo. You have warptalons for that.
A jump sorceror (warptime) with 10 warptalons is going to wreck faces!

About plasma or melta, i feel that it depends on who you face. BUT, since we can now splitfire, i'll be trying 2 units of 5 with 2 plasma pistols on champion and 2 meltaguns.
I honestly fail to see why we should take 10 raptors given that we can maximise special weapons with 5 models. Maybe at very high pointlevels, for contesting objectives?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 11:57:37


Post by: Charax


Ive not really decided what my force is going to contain, but here's an interesting tidbit:

Chaos Daemon Daemon Prince of Nurgle as your Warlord with the Tenacious Survivor Trait

10 Wounds, when you take a wound roll two dice, DR ignores it on a 5+, TS ignores it on a 6+

That's what I call *Disgustingly Resilient*


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 13:39:54


Post by: CrankyOldITGuy


saint_red wrote:
 Rydria wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.


Power sword chosen will be good. Take a unit of 10 and anyone who doesn't take a power sword takes a chainsword and bolt pistol. Stick them all in a Rhino and you've got a unit that can chew through MEQs and below for a reasonable price. A squad of 6 works too because you can take a Lord or Apostle along to improve your combat abilities.

It's also worth nothing that Fallen are almost identical to Chosen except that Chosen are 2ppm more expensive and have the <Legion> keyword.


I'm wondering what people are thinking for their ranged fire support? The options seem to be Predators, Forgefiends and Havocs with missiles/lascannons or maybe autocannons. I'm thinking Predators with the autocannon and lascannon sponsons as it's more survivable than the Havocs and has better damage than the Forgefiend.




Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but it looks like the melee weapon wording is slightly different between The Fallen and Chosen.

Both have the option to replace any bolters with chainswords, but Chosen can replace up to 4 bolters with melee weapons while Fallen can take up to 4 melee weapons (no replacement).

If (and still not sure why) you wanted a CC-oriented Fallen unit, it looks like the 4 choosing from the melee list would hang onto their bolters, while Chosen would give them up.

Cheers!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 13:54:31


Post by: str00dles1


How does summoning work with Points? Sorry if I missed it but only say in the book it talks about 3d6 power level.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 13:57:55


Post by: Captyn_Bob


You set aside points in your list to summon stuff. You can't summon more than that. Includes split horrors too.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 14:00:12


Post by: Latro_


str00dles1 wrote:
How does summoning work with Points? Sorry if I missed it but only say in the book it talks about 3d6 power level.


every unit has a power level (basically like pts-lite) even in matched play you use this value to summon. You need to get equal to or higher than it on 3d6

so 10 bloodletters are PL5

you roll 3 dice

if you add them up and its 5+ you can summon them in.

Anything you summon you have to purchase with pts beforehand e.g. in the case above you spend 90pts and you can deply them normally or reserve them to be summoned later in the battle


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 14:15:18


Post by: mahddoc


IIRC you set aside points while creating the army, you can't just put stuff either in reserve to summon or deploy them.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 14:29:02


Post by: str00dles1


I see, so in Matched play with points, you will still use power level to summon daemons if you want. So odd, but thanks!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 23:24:35


Post by: skybax


So I made a spreadsheet! It's terribly messy appropriately chaotic, and doesn't focus on the defence of the units - I assumed I am looking for anything that packs a punch.

There are some units I didn't check, especially named characters. And it's all mathhammer and theoryhammer, so it may turn out I missed a lot. Anyway, maybe it will be of some use?

Note: when I say than a unit is more durable / stronger than another, I mean it's stronger when you spend the same amount of points on both units. This way, cultists could be more durable than marines (they aren't, but that's a nice example).

Best HQ:

Sorcerer. Thanks to Smite and Hereticus spells, he's best against Save 2+, and is worth his points even when you don't think about other uses for his magic. About 50% better than Berzerkers against TEQ and vehicles, and Berzerkers are a benchmark unit here. Almost as durable as 5 Berzerkers with a fist (costing the same points). Durability can be doubled with a suit of Terminator armour and he's still worth it. The bike is also good.

Daemon Prince w/ malefic talons. In offence, almost as good as Berzerkers against TEQ (and, when it comes to Khorne princes, against vehicles, too), and more durable than them. Overall better than default marines at most things, with PSI and buffs as an added bonus.

Dark Apostle, for the hit rerolls (especially good for units hitting on 4+ - power fist marines, cultists, damaged vehicles).

Epidemius, if you play a Plaguebearer army. If all his boons are activated, Plaguebearers become the single most powerful unit in the index (as long as Epidemius lives).

Best troops:

Berzerkers, if you play World Eaters. Preferably with sword + axe or sword + pistol. Compared to marines, twice as good vs GEQ, thrice as good vs MEQ. If you keep them in MSU with power fists for sergeants, about twice as good vs GEQ and MEQ, and better than havocs with melta against TEQ, and as good as them against heavy armour (at the same time, twice as durable as melta havocs).

Tzaangors. As good as Berzerkers vs GEQ and MEQ, twice as many bodies, twice less durable. Don't work against heavy armour.

Marines with boltguns. Twice to thrice weaker than Berzerkers against infantry, useless against armour unless given special weapons (I suggest plasma if you can get rerolls). Around half more durable than the Berzerkers (because for the same points, you can get more of them). But they can shoot, while all the units above need to get to meele. After all, though, they're still marines, so probably there are better units around somewhere (my pessimism tells me, probably in other factions).

Cultists with autoguns. Compared to marines, worse against GEQ, better against MEQ, with less armour, but more wounds. But the Guard are better in every way.

Daemonettes seem great, but yeah, they probably won't live to get these bonus attacks for large numbers.

Best elites:

Again, Berzerkers.

Chosen equipped with power fists are the best anti-armour unit in the codex (almost twice as good as berzerkers with fists), but cost a lot. For the points of a fully equipped 5-man unit, you could buy 10 berzerkers or around 15 marines. But you could give them Rhinos, they would cost even more, but against armour, they would still have an edge when compared to Berzerkers.

Close combat helbrutes (preferably with dual fists) are good against 2+, around the melta Havocs levels, and they are more durable. They are still on lascannon Havoc levels when equipped with a fist and a useless secondary weapon, e.g. a multimelta.

Best fast attack

Spawn may be decent, better than marines at most of their jobs, and very good against TEQ (to the level of melta havocs).

As other posters noted, Heldrake is nice for its speed.

Best heavy support attack

Havocs armed with melta or plasma seem good, and havocs with lascannons are the most efficient anti-armour shooting unit.

Predator is looking like the best tank, and by this I mean, about as good at anti armour as it's points' worth of marines squads with plasma. I don't know if it's more durable.

Lords of War

Knights and Lords of Skulls dish out more damage in meele than any other heavily armoured vehicle I checked, even after taking into account their point values, so I guess they're pretty good.

Some random things I disliked

Chaos Lords, Heldrake's damage output, Possessed (but maybe, with Epidemius...), Chosen with guns, Poxwalkers (even when buffed), plague drones and nurglings (but maybe they may do something as tarpits?), havocs with autocannons and heavy bolters, Soul Grinders, Defilers, Forgefiends.

~~~

again - this is based on offence, not on e.g. capability of being a good tarpit. And it is undiluted mathhammer, so please don't trust it too much


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/06 23:49:55


Post by: Nightlord1987


Loving the Malefic talon prince myself. My metal nurgle prince had an accident a while back with the huge cleaver and I fitted him with a gnarled Claw instead. I always felt iffy about the "counts as" aspect of all the relics. I'm a strict WYSIWYG person (in my own army) who will convert certain wargear out f any random bitz I have lying around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if it was asked earlier in the thread, but what are people equipping Helbrutes with? I have one with a Reaper Autocannon, missile Launcher but changes to heavy weapons makes even the heavy bolter an interesting option.

Im considering a new build for a brute babysitter to cover for my Havocs. I have the HB, RAC, and Twin Las bitz leftover to do some converting. Definitely think the stock MM option is too bland.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 08:16:33


Post by: DarklyDreaming


Thank you @dethric for the attention! So I guess predator is the way to go, with a prince near and prescience on it gets pretty cheesy! I also can confirm that berzerkers + dark apostle is really good, unfortunately I suppose we require at least 2 or 3 units of them, in rhino, to be effective against the most shooty armies!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 09:58:45


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Loving the stats.

Anything for rubricae/ scarab occult?
Want to know if the improved shooting and durability is close to worth the cost bump for meh sorceror


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 16:13:34


Post by: andysonic1


From my personal experience attacking tanks with Berzerkers: the only one who would hurt it is the champ with a power fist and even then you most likely wouldn't do significant damage to it. The other members of the team might, collectively, do one or two additional wounds, while the power fist does maybe 4-6 wounds. You might be able to slip all your units around it so it can't escape, but now you're spending two-three turns killing a tank when you could have taken out an infantry squad every turn instead. Berzerkers aren't a swiss army knife and cost waaaaay too many points to be made into one with a power fist. Three plasma pistols and chainxes for all + icon is where I draw the line with mine. A unit of 8 cost 167 with that wargear and that is hard to swallow when anything toughness 7+ is going to shrug off the unit no matter how much I swing at it. I'm still trying to decide if I want Rhinos or not since I also take Helbrutes and they tend to soak up a lot of the enemy fire regardless.

I didn't look at the Dark Apostle before because it's more of a Word Bearers thing, but he's the second cheapest HQ with base wargear barely more expensive than a Chaos Lord and has a great leadership bubble effect.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 16:30:45


Post by: skybax


Berzerkers may not be the best tank killers, but what would be better at doing that job? Besides Chosen with fists and sorcerers, I don't see any other contenders, and these two don't feel like a good idea for anti-tank.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 17:00:50


Post by: andysonic1


My Helbrute with a Power Fist and Power Scourge took off a lot of wounds from my friend's Knight. I even forgot to add an attack for double melee weapons. Melee Helbrutes are my go-to for tank killing. Used to be Maulerfiends but their price increase and degrading stats has turned me off from them....

HOWEVER, as I typed the above I decided to look back on Maulers and look for synergy. A Mauler supported by a nearby Jugger Herald of Khorne and a Deamon Prince will be rerolling 1s and gain +1 strength in combat. Helbrutes would only get the rerolls. Makes me a little more accepting of the Mauler's price tag, plus they're pretty fast to boot.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 17:17:18


Post by: skybax


Right! I keep forgetting about the daemon and daemon engine synergy.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 21:35:36


Post by: Loopstah


I'm running a Khorne army and had a look to see what had the Daemon and Khorne keywords in the CSM army list, for getting the +1 Str from Heralds, as they are pretty cheap HQ options to spread about.

Possessed would be S6.
Forgefiends + Maulerfiends would be S7.
Defilers would be S9.
Daemon Princes would be S8.
Lord of Skulls would be S11!
Mutilators would be S7-9.
Heldrakes would be S8.
Warp Talons would be S5.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 21:51:53


Post by: andysonic1


Realistically, Heralds could reliably effect Possessed, -Fiends, Defilers, Princes, and Lord of Skulls. Mutilators would be deep striking, Heldrakes should be harassing the edges of the enemy army or their entrenched units, and Warp Talons would be deep striking. But yeah, there's a lot of synergy for such a cheap unit (Heralds of Khorne are 58 points people, 58 POINTS).


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 21:53:07


Post by: ZergSmasher


I'm definitely going to think about getting myself a Khornemower now that they are viable. I actually like the model despite the negativity toward it. Some of the weapons seem really expensive though.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 22:26:30


Post by: mahddoc


Regarding getting buffs/auras from Daemon Heralds as CSM(Heretic Astartes):



As much as i wish they would...

I don't think it works, auras only target "Faction Keywords" otherwise the wording in the CSM Prince makes no sense at all and why would they target Faction Keywords for Daemons and Keywords in CSM?

Edit: I am wrong see below.
Halleluja, Khorne here i come.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 22:35:23


Post by: Loopstah


As long as it has a "KHORNE" and "DAEMON" keyword it is good. Faction keywords are just keywords that limit detachment building, they are otherwise referenced the same as any other keyword.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 22:40:24


Post by: andysonic1


I don't really see your point. Faction Keywords are how you create your Battle-Forged Army, however both sections are Keywords. A CSM Deamon Prince is still a Khorne Deamon, just like Possessed can be Khorne Deamons with a bunch of other keywords.

DAMN YOU LOOPSTAH


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/07 22:55:53


Post by: mahddoc


Loopstah wrote:
As long as it has a "KHORNE" and "DAEMON" keyword it is good. Faction keywords are just keywords that limit detachment building, they are otherwise referenced the same as any other keyword.


Hm.
I am checking some other stuff right now and your interpretation makes more sense in light of for example the GK special rule regarding reroll to wound against Daemons.
Which wouldn't trigger against Daemons from Codex Daemons at all if i go by my line of thinking.

Edit:

I am wrong(YES, happy about that). P. 175 Main Rulebook, Faction keywords are also keywords.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 00:20:10


Post by: Nightlord1987


So with no more specialist weapons bonus, and powerfists being clunky, what do we think of the tried and true Fisti-claw biker lord for 8th?

Jump packs have their advantages now, but the bike will still put us in the 5+ to wound threshold with a majority of attacks, so bikes are still worth consider.

Is it worth keeping the fist, or trade it out for a Lightning claw and get that extra attack?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 03:52:58


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So with no more specialist weapons bonus, and powerfists being clunky, what do we think of the tried and true Fisti-claw biker lord for 8th?

Jump packs have their advantages now, but the bike will still put us in the 5+ to wound threshold with a majority of attacks, so bikes are still worth consider.

Is it worth keeping the fist, or trade it out for a Lightning claw and get that extra attack?

I would think it might still be worth it to keep the fist since it can damage even many big things on a 3+. It also does D3 damage, whereas the claw only does 1 if I'm not mistaken. The claw could be more useful against weedy enemies with only one wound, though, which is why taking both may continue to work well.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 05:44:09


Post by: Nightlord1987


Yea, i did just realize hitting 3s, re-roll ones is still pretty good for a number of attacks. I suppose i wont be hacking off anyones arms just yet.

Here's another idea, Comb/twin bolters seem much more useful than a pistol on lets say Lords and Sorcerers who will usually only have 1 melee weapon that isnt just a Chainsword. Much like my Ork Nobz who always take the Shoota, I would always take a cheap rapid2 combi-bolter at least.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 06:20:49


Post by: macluvin


I've always wanted to build an Emperors Children army. And those sonic blasters look pretty punishing what with the 24 inches of 3 shots each, even after advancing! The firing off a shot as they die seems pretty amazing too. The only thing I dont like is the blast masters high cost. Can anyone justify 28 points for that, and also what would you support this unit with? I would imagine cultist meat shields to keep the more combat oriented armies away from them and some kind of anti armor.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 15:53:27


Post by: Cindis


Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 16:14:12


Post by: Latro_


Cindis wrote:
Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...


I'v always put plasma and melta combi weapons on rhinos! they're awesome now.
Extra CB for 2pts aint to shabby either .. 8 shots at 12"


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 17:04:17


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 skybax wrote:
Berzerkers may not be the best tank killers, but what would be better at doing that job? Besides Chosen with fists and sorcerers, I don't see any other contenders, and these two don't feel like a good idea for anti-tank.


Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut with a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol is only 158 points and would do about 7 wounds at turn to a T8 3+ Model.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 17:13:45


Post by: McGibs


With chaos's lack of sniper units (aside from the heldrake :p), what are people's thoughts on solo character-murderers?
I was thinking it would be advisable to take 1 or 2 cheap jumppack lords armed with powerfists. Deep strike in alone, out of LOS (in a building or something), then jump out next turn to try and punch a character in the face (then die horribly).
Think it's worth the 100 or so points to decapitate the enemy synergy bubble and wreck some havok?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 17:14:30


Post by: Bach


Kharn and Berzerkers have the 'Blood for the Blood God'...Does that mean they go twice in a row, in the fight phase, or would they go once, then the enemy unit goes, then they go again?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 17:18:44


Post by: Cindis


 Latro_ wrote:
Cindis wrote:
Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...


I'v always put plasma and melta combi weapons on rhinos! they're awesome now.
Extra CB for 2pts aint to shabby either .. 8 shots at 12"


Oh gak didn't realize that wasn't a new thing - never seen a chaos rhino on the table before haha


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 17:35:36


Post by: labmouse42


Has anyone else noticed that you can put combi-bolters on your fallen for only 2 PPM?
That's 16 points for a MEQ with 4 bolter shots at close range.

It's a shame they can't use transports, as they are not a <Legion> Infantry or <Chapter> infantry.
Noone wants to let him go along with....

Edit : Fabious can't ride either... how sad.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 18:50:47


Post by: Roknar


What I can't tell is whether or not it's intended for so many units to be locked out of transports. The cynic in me says that it's a result of GW accidentally being too restrictive with their keywords, but I dunno.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 19:17:46


Post by: andysonic1


 Bach wrote:
Kharn and Berzerkers have the 'Blood for the Blood God'...Does that mean they go twice in a row, in the fight phase, or would they go once, then the enemy unit goes, then they go again?
They get to go twice in the fight phase. So you can activate them twice. They do not combine their attacks, they get activated twice at two different times in the fight phase.

 McGibs wrote:
With chaos's lack of sniper units (aside from the heldrake :p), what are people's thoughts on solo character-murderers?
I was thinking it would be advisable to take 1 or 2 cheap jumppack lords armed with powerfists. Deep strike in alone, out of LOS (in a building or something), then jump out next turn to try and punch a character in the face (then die horribly).
Think it's worth the 100 or so points to decapitate the enemy synergy bubble and wreck some havok?
This idea pleases me. Jump Pack Lord + Power Fist + Plasma Pistol = 120 points. It's...OK? The points are a little high just for a suicide bomber, for a little more you can get a Heldrake.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 19:26:35


Post by: Neferhet


I've learned on my skin a couple of general truths:

1) cultist spam does not work well. they just vanish in the wind. Morale is an issue and T3, 6+ sv doesnt help either. Marines looks like a better all rounder unit, while cultist can be nice to drop onto objective and to help in ongoing melees; also, act as screen.

2) deepstriking isnt easy, if the opponent is smart. with a little of cunning its almost impossible to deepstrike behind a gunline. Also, making the charge right after is quite hard. Only khorne icon unit should attempt it. Our deepstriking could be better used for dakka? A Jump Lord with power axe and plasmapistol, 2 units of 5 Raptors with 2 plasmapistols and 2 plasmaguns can dish out a crippling amount of plasma for 355 pts. This three units combined could take an objective (or two) with little effort, i think.

A question about icons: do you guys think that the icon of Slaanesh is worth it in a TAC list without list tailoring?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 20:06:59


Post by: Debilitate


Plasma pistols, especially with a character nearby that lets them reroll ones (chaos lords/captains) in deep-striking unit are terrifying.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/08 20:39:50


Post by: Boogles


Since the icon of wrath is only ten points, I auto include it on anything deepstriking or meant to go into assault. It saves on CP.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 06:03:18


Post by: Latro_


Yea i can't wait to try out my lord with 7 khorne termies deep striking.

problem will be it'll be so tempting to spew off those 32 bolter shots at the risk of not being able to charge if he removes models from the front.

i guess its a maths game because 32 bolter shots stand a fair chance of obliterating a lot of units anyway


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 06:09:23


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Shoot one unit, charge another?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 06:13:47


Post by: Latro_


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Shoot one unit, charge another?


wow scrubbing this 7th ed mentality is hard!

or shoot several units then charge another XD

One thing i'v been mulling over is 4 daemons princes (csm) rocking it with mid sized units of flesh hounds... seems fun, anyone tried something similar?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 11:19:21


Post by: zerosignal


 andysonic1 wrote:
 Bach wrote:
Kharn and Berzerkers have the 'Blood for the Blood God'...Does that mean they go twice in a row, in the fight phase, or would they go once, then the enemy unit goes, then they go again?
They get to go twice in the fight phase. So you can activate them twice. They do not combine their attacks, they get activated twice at two different times in the fight phase.

 McGibs wrote:
With chaos's lack of sniper units (aside from the heldrake :p), what are people's thoughts on solo character-murderers?
I was thinking it would be advisable to take 1 or 2 cheap jumppack lords armed with powerfists. Deep strike in alone, out of LOS (in a building or something), then jump out next turn to try and punch a character in the face (then die horribly).
Think it's worth the 100 or so points to decapitate the enemy synergy bubble and wreck some havok?
This idea pleases me. Jump Pack Lord + Power Fist + Plasma Pistol = 120 points. It's...OK? The points are a little high just for a suicide bomber, for a little more you can get a Heldrake.


Heldrakes are 198 - you have to pay for the baleflamer.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 11:29:10


Post by: Darksider


What do you think of Daemonprinces with Hellforged Sword and Talon instead of two talons?

Only has 5 attacks then, but he makes 3 dmg instead of 2.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 11:34:26


Post by: Neferhet


 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Daemonprinces with Hellforged Sword and Talon instead of two talons?

Only has 5 attacks then, but he makes 3 dmg instead of 2.


two attacks more from the talons are better, imo, expecially becuse you pay less points!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 12:23:14


Post by: Darksider


 Neferhet wrote:
 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Daemonprinces with Hellforged Sword and Talon instead of two talons?

Only has 5 attacks then, but he makes 3 dmg instead of 2.


two attacks more from the talons are better, imo, expecially becuse you pay less points!



Thought that it would turn out this way =(. A pitty that all my Dps are equipped with Swords.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 12:29:00


Post by: Levski


Edit/ sorry, I realised this probably should have gone in the army list section instead.

Hi everyone. I've not played for a decade and since 4th Ed!

I have a large Ork and smaller Nid and Khorne Bezerker collections. Its the Zerks i'm interested in expanding, as compared to 4th ed, there appears to be many more options. I believe you used to be limited to the units that could take the 'Mark of Khorne', but now it appears that you can basically assign any unit the 'World Eaters' and 'Khorne' keywords - correct me if i'm wrong?

I'm thinking of doing a Mechanised army, with a fair amount of shooting ability in to balance the monstrous CQB ability of the Zerks (Khorne cares not for how the blood is spilt!!). Rough 1500pt list below:

Winged Daemon Prince (170) -180-
Two pairs of malefic talons (10)

Dark Apostle (72) -83-
Power Maul (4) Plasma pistol (7)

9 x Khorne bezerkers (144) -235-
Champion (0)
2 plasma pistols (14) 7 Chainaxes (7)
Chaos Rhino (70)

10 x Khorne bezerkers (160) -252-
Champion (0)
2 plasma pistols (14) 8 Chainaxes (8)
Chaos Rhino (70)

10 x Khorne bezerkers (160) -252-
Champion (0)
2 plasma pistols (14) 8 Chainaxes (8)
Chaos Rhino (70)

- 1002 -

Chaos lord (74) -82-
Plasma Pistol (7) Power Axe (5)

Chaos Predator (102) -202-
Twin Lascannon (50)
2x sponser lascannons (50)

Chaos Predator (102) -202-
Twin Lascannon (50)
2x sponser lascannons (50)

-486-

In terms of bringing it up to 2k, i was thinking of couple of squads of cultists to add more bodies but not sure after that... Daemons?

A couple of Questions:

Do the Chaos lords/Daemon Princes 're-roll 1' ability apply to shooting? Its just says 'to hit' so I assume yes?
Do the buff auras that HQ choices give stack up? - EG, can a unit within the radius of a Deamon Prince and Dark Acolyte in the fight phase re-roll all hits AND then re-roll any 1s ?

C&C welcomed as i've been out of the loop for so long


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 13:57:30


Post by: andysonic1


Hi Levski, you are totally in the wrong forum HOWEVER I just wanted to point out some things for you:

1. Rhinos are 72 points, you forgot to cost in the Combi-bolter they come stock with.
2. You should drop your Berzerkers down to 5 or 8 models so your HQs can fit in the Rhinos with them and buff them. HQs now have really good aura abilities, you should be focusing on utilizing that.
3. I've heard cultist blobs are just OK, with an apostle they may be better but idk haven't tried it yet.
4. If it says re-roll to hit, it means re-roll to anytime you roll to hit, so yes it applies to shooting, overwatch, and fight phase.
5. You can only re-roll a dice once.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 16:40:21


Post by: Greed


I'll not be happy if this edition tries to shove as much khorne into chaos as possible (like AoS). I want to use normal chaos marines and don't play a god aligned legion.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 16:44:42


Post by: Debilitate


I'm just stoked I can make a list with seekers, soul grinders, and noise marines all in the same detachment. A miracle has come to us.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 16:57:01


Post by: andysonic1


Greed wrote:
I'll not be happy if this edition tries to shove as much khorne into chaos as possible (like AoS). I want to use normal chaos marines and don't play a god aligned legion.
There's no reason why you can't do this. The undivided icon is great.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 17:00:21


Post by: Cephalobeard


As Forgeworld is releasing Chaos versions of all the FW Knights, do we want to bet that Renegade Knights with the inclusion of these extra knights will get a boost in power as being a viable standalone?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 17:31:30


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Daemonprinces with Hellforged Sword and Talon instead of two talons?

Only has 5 attacks then, but he makes 3 dmg instead of 2.


They are better at killing tanks and worse at killing single wound models so it depends on what your attacking.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 18:31:57


Post by: skybax


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Daemonprinces with Hellforged Sword and Talon instead of two talons?

Only has 5 attacks then, but he makes 3 dmg instead of 2.


They are better at killing tanks and worse at killing single model wounds so it depends on what your attacking.


Sadly, they are worse at killing tanks, too. If my calculations are correct, swords are about 50% worse against almost everything.

~~

I'm still doing theoryhammer only (the army got left in another town, alas), but I'm getting fond of Plaguebearers. They are more durable than marines (especially against heavy weapons), and provided they get to close combat, they should win. So I guess they can be a good tarpit or a screen, or maybe even the primary unit (especially in an Epidemius army).


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 19:37:27


Post by: Darksider


Yeah unfortunately i also think that the sword is weaker than double talons, but i don't think that it is 50% worse.

Sword and Talon cause 14 Wounds if all hit and all wound and double talons also do 14 Wounds if all hin and all wound.

Double Talons have better Chance to get more attacks trough, so you have to calculate how much wight the 2 attacks have.

Would say a prince with sword is about 20 -30 % weaker, but not 50% that seems way too much.


I have also a question regarding chars and transports. Could i put five different chars into a rhino or raider without another unit (so only the five chars are in the rino or raider) and then embark them and charge 5 different units with them?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 19:55:25


Post by: andysonic1


Regarding your transport question: yes you can do that.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/09 22:09:57


Post by: Asuroth


While the points may not be known...I couldn't help but notice something very fun about that lovely looking Greater Brass Scorpion- it has the key words that allow it to be buffed from the Dark Hereticus discipline and Chaos Lords/Daemon Prince auras! Nothing quite says love like a warptime to throw it 24 inches plus that 3d6 charge and prescience to make all those nasty attacks 2+ to hit! Drop in a deep striking chaos lord or something nearby and give him reroll ones....sounds like a nightmare come true heh. Even casting buffs on it won't backfire from it's anti magic passive since they only take effect against mortal wounds type attacks.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/10 01:04:04


Post by: Enurta


May not be fluffy but I can't wait to use prescience and warptime on a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne and re-rolling misses of 1. I think I will be rocking Be'lakor a lot in 8th edition. The scorpion points will probably be between 630 and 650, since the points have seem to be power points times 20.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/10 04:22:17


Post by: Cilithan


zerosignal wrote:
Heldrakes are 198 - you have to pay for the baleflamer.


215 even, you have to pay for the Heldrake Claws as wel...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/10 06:16:20


Post by: macluvin


Anyone notice that the Autocannon does 2 shots at 2 damage each but the Reaper shoots 4 shots at 1 damage each? That would kind of explain why the reaper is slightly cheaper than the regular autocannon but that's still weird to me.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/10 18:37:39


Post by: McGibs


All the autocannons seem to be in different calibers now, the only similarities seem to be S7 AP-1. Predator autocannons do D3.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/11 11:54:21


Post by: macluvin


So what are we arming our havocs with and why? I am struggling to decide what to throw on my havocs. Also struggling to figure out what I need my havocs to do.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/11 23:46:49


Post by: DiabloSpawn33


macluvin wrote:
So what are we arming our havocs with and why? I am struggling to decide what to throw on my havocs. Also struggling to figure out what I need my havocs to do.


I'm personally planning to outfit them with autocannons as it still seems like the best TAC choice - worse against infantry but better at tank busting than heavy bolters, wounding most vehicles on a 4+ instead of 5+ like bolters and doing 2 damage per wound.

I haven't done the math so that's just a gut feeling.,.. that and that's how I have em modeled already lol


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 04:17:29


Post by: ZergSmasher


DiabloSpawn33 wrote:
macluvin wrote:
So what are we arming our havocs with and why? I am struggling to decide what to throw on my havocs. Also struggling to figure out what I need my havocs to do.


I'm personally planning to outfit them with autocannons as it still seems like the best TAC choice - worse against infantry but better at tank busting than heavy bolters, wounding most vehicles on a 4+ instead of 5+ like bolters and doing 2 damage per wound.

I haven't done the math so that's just a gut feeling.,.. that and that's how I have em modeled already lol

I've got a squad with 3 Autocannons and a Lascannon, so I'm feeling good about them. Those are probably the best weapons for Havocs. Heavy bolters do have their place too, though. I really don't think missile launchers are worth it- they are jacks of all trades but masters of none since they have weakish shots for anti-infantry or anti-vehicle both.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 04:23:28


Post by: Nightlord1987


macluvin wrote:
So what are we arming our havocs with and why? I am struggling to decide what to throw on my havocs. Also struggling to figure out what I need my havocs to do.
,

This has been my favorite part of the "Vanilla CSM" codex we have gotten, and thats finally digging out all the Heavy Bolter, Missile Launchers, and Plasma Gun bitz from over the years. Even using a mix!

I've turned all the Joe CSM into various Havoc units, 4 Heavy Bolters, 4 Missile Launchers, 4 Plasma Guns, and one unit Three Missiles and a Las Cannon. Definitely would not have thought they would be playable a few months ago.

My dream of an all Havocs and Raptors army is on the way.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 09:29:07


Post by: Latro_


So played my first 8th ed game yesterday my iron warriors with gatling knight vs my mates SM army.

Some things noticed:
- Smite and infernal gaze working in tandem is sweet! spewing out mortal wounds on a simple 5 on two dice is nasty!
- Obilterators were totally underwhelming, i ended up even using cmd point re-rolls to not make them suck so much. They feel like their guns should be more like assault 3 or even 4! For their points i could of had another 8 havocs with 4 lascannons.
- Lascannon havocs were pretty good, took ages to kill a land raider though. Getting high on the damage rolls is were its at.
- Knight was mvp, seemed a lot more durable and scary. 24 gatling shots with the 2 dmg are nice... one turn i wiped out a squad of 6 termintors in one volley. Also heavy flamers are nothing to be sniffed at!
- Was a bit disappointed with rhinos, just seemed to die as easily as they have done in the past. Not firing out of them also sucks, i'm wondering if they are even worth it. Mortal wounds on a 1 are also pretty harsh, i lost two rhinos and of the 18 marines in both 5 died from 1's
- Helbrute and his dreads (he had 3!) seemed a bit meh also. The fact if they move it reduces the BS on heavy weps feels annoying, mine just died to a twin lascannon from a razorback in one round of shooting.
- Battleshock only seemed to become anything close to a thing when loosing 3-4 marines
- Overwatch can be surprisingly scary now everything can do it, not fun charging a LR redeemer when it has 2d6 s6 flamer shots an 12 assault cannon shots at you.




8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 10:29:17


Post by: macluvin


Aw. I wanted Helbrutes to be awesome. I feel like they should be a mobile weapons platform :(


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 11:11:40


Post by: Latro_


Gonna try out my khorne one next fist and scourge
Helbrutes probably better off as combat units

The above has 4 s12 -3 3 attacks then 3 s8 -1 2 attacks and 4 bolter shots before charging in.





8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 15:00:32


Post by: labmouse42


Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 15:30:28


Post by: macluvin


You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 16:26:44


Post by: labmouse42


macluvin wrote:
You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…
Point for point, the 2 point combi-bolter is one of the best upgrades any marine can make.
I've been working on a spreadsheet that shows the point efficiency of units.
The analysis shows that the 2 points you can spend on a combi-bolter or 11 for a havoc launcher are always worth it.

In fact, Chaos Rhinos with 2 combi-bolters and a havoc launcher make surprisingly cost-effective gunboats.
Up close they are throwing out 8 bolter dice, and ~3.5 shots form the havoc missile launcher.

You can also take 1 combi-bolter, and 1 combi-flamer for 6 bolter shots, 3.5 havoc shots, and 3.5 flamer shots all from your transport.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 16:45:16


Post by: Latro_


Also model options, part of me seems to remember old bikers had a weapon that kinda replaced the bolters.

I only just realised they had 2 wounds each! kinda makes up for jink

and 20" advance whooooosh


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 16:45:44


Post by: Boogles


labmouse42 wrote:Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter

It might just be a legacy thing where they know people might have some of their bikers modeled that way, so they didn't want to invalidate their models.
macluvin wrote:You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…

A combi-bolter(2) + flamer(9) is the same points cost as a single Combi-flamer(11), so i'd just buy the extra flamer whenever I could.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 17:21:06


Post by: sfshilo


Does Epidemius work with Nurgle Oblits, Talons, Mutliators, and other marked daemon units in CSM?

His rules state any Nurgle Daemon, and Nurgle Daemons all have two separate key words, Daemon and Nurgle. Mark of Chaos replaces <Mark of Chaos> with keywords Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeench, or Slanesh....


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 17:53:05


Post by: Latro_


 sfshilo wrote:
Does Epidemius work with Nurgle Oblits, Talons, Mutliators, and other marked daemon units in CSM?

His rules state any Nurgle Daemon, and Nurgle Daemons all have two separate key words, Daemon and Nurgle. Mark of Chaos replaces <Mark of Chaos> with keywords Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeench, or Slanesh....


don't see why not, the keywords match...

you also have:
CSM sorcerer on palanquin
CSM possessed
Heldrakes
Maulefiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Bloat Drones
CSM daemon prince





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just reading the land raider entry, you can put jump troops in it now.

So 5 talons or raptors in one might work?
move forward 10" then next turn you have 2.9" then a 12"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing i just noticed olde fabius bill

Can enhance heretic astates infantry units
Roll a dice for all members of the target unit on a 6 they get a mortal wound.
Then roll a d3 (+1s or +1a or +1t)

cultists are heretic astates infantry XD
take a unit of 40 of them or 20 poxwalkers or even 30 tzaangors

fun times XD


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 20:22:09


Post by: andysonic1


Hooooly I didn't know being on the mounts gives you the Deamon keyword now, that is huge. Juggerlords near Heralds plus a Power Maul = +2 to hit, +2 to wound MEQ and TEQ. Wounding Dreads and the like on +3, tanks and titans on +4. Not too shabby, a Herald on a Jugger plus Juggerlord is only like 250 after upgrades, could be a pretty strong roving hammer. Screen with Flesh Hounds or Spawn and baby, you've got a stew going.

Also: I've used melee Helbrutes in three games now and christ allmighty they are amazing. 5 powerfist attacks hitting on +3 because NO ADDED MISS CHANCE ON HELBRUTES, plus the additional 3 Power Scourge attacks. My Helbrute knocked a Knight Titan down 6-8 points, and in another game he took an Avatar of Khane down to one wound (Avatars get 5+ invul followed by a 5+ FnP). Oh, and if you take damage in the fight phase and roll 6 on crazed you can fight again with all those juicy attacks. My Helbrutes do about 100% more work than my Maulerfields on average while being a lot squishier. I'll gladly take a glass cannon than a dud hitter anyday.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 20:33:57


Post by: Latro_


Its 4 attacks + 3 for the scourge no?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 20:57:48


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Plus and extra attack for having two melee weapons. 11 attacks if it is possible to equip two power scourges


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:25:52


Post by: Boogles


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.


Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:33:23


Post by: Latro_


Boogles wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.


Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore


ah no they right +1 attack if you have two mele is a helbrute spec rule, just assumed it was 2 fists... wow they really are good


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:40:47


Post by: andysonic1


 Latro_ wrote:
Boogles wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.


Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore


ah no they right +1 attack if you have two mele is a helbrute spec rule, just assumed it was 2 fists... wow they really are good
dats right me friendos: 8 attacks (5 fist, 3 scourge), and a nearby lord to reroll ones to hit. It's also a vehicle so you can repair it with a warpsmith within 1 inch. Melee Helbrutes are legit.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:41:35


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Boogles wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.


Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore


Did you read the Helbrute's rules are are you making an assumption?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:43:12


Post by: Boogles


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Boogles wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.


Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore


Did you read the Helbrute's rules are are you making an assumption?


nevermind, i thought you just meant in general


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 21:44:44


Post by: andysonic1


Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 22:16:44


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.


It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 22:36:26


Post by: Boogles


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.


It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.


And against T7 the scourge and fist are both wounding on 3 anyways, so its good enough against armor


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 23:06:54


Post by: andysonic1


Boogles wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.


It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.


And against T7 the scourge and fist are both wounding on 3 anyways, so its good enough against armor
I ggguuueeesss but still I would rather charger Berzerkers at a blob (after soaking up overwatch with my Rhino) than my Helbrute. I'd much much prefer assaulting tanks with the Helbrute.

Oh, I also just realized Charge Phase is a Phase, meaning if you take an overwatch bullet, complete your charge, and then roll Crazed, you get to fight before the Fight Phase, meaning your Helbrute gets to attack twice before your opponent gets to do anything in combat (once in the Charge Phase and once in the Fight Phase).

Helbrutes: going from useless to one of the best melee options in 1 edition flat.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 23:18:37


Post by: Gordon Shumway


I don't know if it would work that way. The rule says immediately shoots or piles in after taking damage. To me that means in order to take advantage of getting crazed on overwatch, since it isn't within 1" yet, the brute would need a shooting attack.

Edit: never mind, it says at the end of the phase, so yeah, that seems like it would work. So concieveably, if it got wounded overwatch and in combat, and got a craze s result each time, it could fight four times in one round. I would like to see that happen just once.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/12 23:22:55


Post by: Latro_


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't know if it would work that way. The rule says immediately shoots or piles in after taking damage. To me that means in order to take advantage of getting crazed on overwatch, since it isn't within 1" yet, the brute would need a shooting attack.

Edit: never mind, it says at the end of the phase, so yeah, that seems like it would work.


and a good use for a cmd point re-roll


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 02:27:19


Post by: buddha


Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 02:44:05


Post by: andysonic1


 buddha wrote:
Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?
This is incorrect. This is not the same as Titanic Feet which specifically says 1 attack splits into 3 attacks. Scourge just says add three attacks.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 02:46:05


Post by: TzeentchNet


 buddha wrote:
Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?

Afraid not, it's a souped-up chainsword in this respect.

If you have a single scourge you can make 7 attacks (4 base, 3 specifically from scourge).
If you have two scourges you get 11 attacks (5 base attacks due to Battering Onslaught, 3 from one scourge, 3 from the other scourge).

Unless I'm missing something.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 03:56:55


Post by: CadianGateTroll


 labmouse42 wrote:
Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter


Infantry can only fire 1 gun in the shooting phase even if they have a bolter and bolt pistol. Meaning they cant fire both bolter and pistol.

Bikers might be treated the same way. Even if a biker has a bolter, bolt pistol, and the combi bolter mounted on the bike, that biker can only pick one if these guns to shoot in the shooting phase.

Vehicles and mc such as dreds and preds get to shoot all guns at different targets in the shooting phase.

Am i right or am i wrong? 8th ed rules are still new to me.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 04:00:55


Post by: Swara


 CadianGateTroll wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter


Infantry can only fire 1 gun in the shooting phase even if they have a bolter and bolt pistol. Meaning they cant fire both bolter and pistol.

Bikers might be treated the same way. Even if a biker has a bolter, bolt pistol, and the combi bolter mounted on the bike, that biker can only pick one if these guns to shoot in the shooting phase.

Vehicles and mc such as dreds and preds get to shoot all guns at different targets in the shooting phase.

Am i right or am i wrong? 8th ed rules are still new to me.


Everyone can fire all their weapons. Pistols have a special rule that only allows them to be fired by itself.
"each time a model equipped with both a pistol and another type of ranged weapon shoots, it can either shoot with it's pistol(s) or with all of it's other weapons."


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 04:06:39


Post by: CadianGateTroll


So bikers can fire their bolter and the mounted combi bolter?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 04:58:15


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Yes indeed they can.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 05:17:08


Post by: macluvin


Or the combibolter and a flamer melta or plasma gun.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 07:30:24


Post by: Latro_


Other exception is grenades, if you wanna lob a grenade you give up shooting with all ye other weapons


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 09:52:28


Post by: labmouse42


 CadianGateTroll wrote:
So bikers can fire their bolter and the mounted combi bolter?
Well, bikes don't get a bolter. Look at what equipment they get. A bolt pistol, frag and krak, and then a combi-bolter on the bike.
But..up to 2 of them can bring an extra special weapon. Hello..flamer!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 10:13:02


Post by: Tonberry7


Yeah I'm looking forwards to trying out some bikers. At first glance they looked to be too expensive now but when you think they now have 2 wounds and can fire all their weapons the possibilities open up. For 128pts you can take a unit of 3 with 2 flamers and a combi-flamer on the champ. With a 14" move they could zoom up to close range of some unfortunates and unleash 16 rapid fire bolter rounds (albeit 4 of them at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamer auto hits which is going to do some damage to the right target. If you swap their pistols for chainswords they would also get 7 attacks in CC to finish of any dregs.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 10:49:41


Post by: Latro_


lol didn't consider a combi on the champ

you could also give him a combi bolter! haha 8 shots, pew pew pew


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 14:14:44


Post by: Cephalobeard


The fact that I can fit

2x 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon Renegade Knight
1x 2x Battle Cannon Renegade Knight
Magnus

Into a list is pretty hilarious, and honestly sounds horrifying.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 14:25:34


Post by: buddha


How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 15:38:50


Post by: Fenris-77


 buddha wrote:
How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
I've had sort of the same problem. What I've done is gone back to basics and started with the psychology of the list and then work from there out into how it will deal with two archetypal lists: horde squishies and lotsa fatties, with some additional consideration given to overpowered psychic phases, flyers and alpha strike.

1. The best point to consider - you mostly aren't playing against Magnus and three knights, or 10 Taurox Primes and a horde of deep striking Scion Plasma Squads, or 10+ smites a turn. Thank god for normal club games or we'd never play. If you're a regular tournament goer you need to consider those WAAC lists, otherwise just ignore them and relax (only crazy people actually build and paint those lists )

2. Include enough volume dakka (or HtH0 that you won't be shocked and dismayed to be facing 100-150 conscripts or boyz (or more).

3. Include enough punchy firepower (and HtH) to be able to deal with 2-4 medium toughness vehicle type targets in the first two turns. Lots of lists are going to feature (for example) a couple of rhinos and a couple of Dreads fronting for a handful of hitty-killy HtH characters, all running full tilt up the middle of the board. You want a plan for lists like this.

4. What are you doing about deep strike type deployment (yours and your opponents). Do you have some bubble wrap to push his DS away from your support units? Conversely, if you have some (or a lot!) of DS what are you planning to do when the opponent does the same thing to you? Dakka and fast flanking units are the usual answers to the second question, generally.

5. If you go HtH heavy, do you have enough mobility to overcome high maneuver lists that want to slide around the edges of the board and shoot you to death?

Those are the sorts of things I'm thinking about for 8th. Answers will come through playtesting, but here are some of the ideas I've been work so far:

1. Winged Demon Princes are awesome. Mobility and HtH punch fills a real hole in a lot of Choas lists.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.
3. CSMs are midfield support at best in most armies (IMO). Fatties like Dreads and DPs are punchier and Rhinos are a better fast character screen. I don't have an issue with the value at 12pts, but I can't see myself driving them up the middle of the board into the teeth of the enemy.

Most of my lists so far are 2-3 demon princes and some HtH fatties (Helbrutes mostly) for driving up-board. sometimes with Berserkers, sometimes with Demons (or both). Empty RhInos are super useful in this role too. Then you add some long range support - Havoks, Predators, etc. Then I add some speed, either via DS, Summoning, or just fastness. Seekers are wicked fast. Termies in DS are a good psychological weapon before they even hit the board. Stir in one Heldrake for distraction and harassment and I'm mostly there. Lots of variations on that theme obviously. I've been thinking a lot about the usefulness of Quicksilver Quickness to alter a lot of opponents battle plans.

So, there you go, a long rambling account of my current thoughts about CSM list building and the direction of the meta. Hope something in there helps.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 16:48:04


Post by: andysonic1


Can't put deamons in rhinos, they do not have the legion keyword.

My World Eaters list is currently revolving around two main forces:

Force 1 - 30 bloodletters, flying CSM dp, skulltaker, herald or two
Force 2 - 2 units of 8 berzerkers in rhinos, kharn, two apostles, five chaos spawn, melee helbrute

The bloodletter blob plus HQs is unignorable because if those bloodletters get to something they will tear it to pieces. If you try and deep strike and hit it, the prince will pop out and blow you away. If you whittle down the unit enough that the heralds and skulltaker come into play, I will already be in the middle of the board.

The chaos spawn plus rhinos of berzerkers plus kharn plus apostles is also something you cannot ignore. Spawn have the ability to really cause havoc and the zerkers are, well, zerkers. Can't forget about punchy punchy helbrute.

I'm in the process of making sure this all fits. Might try and squeeze in a heldrake for additional tomfoolery.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 17:08:00


Post by: Fenris-77


Who's putting demons in rhinos? I'm not. Most lists I'm actually running them empty. A little dakka and overwatch removal is the goal there. Or full of berserkers, also tasty.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 19:42:46


Post by: zechariahsword


 Fenris-77 wrote:
 buddha wrote:
How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.


A Heldrake will only ever be under 200 points if it's loaded with a Hades Autocannon, which I hear under-performs dramatically compared to the Baleflamer (if you moved, which you probably will, the AC only hits on 5+ before any other modifiers; OUCH!). The Baleflamer pushes it up to 215 points, but improves it's ability to hit things by quite a bit, which is how I'm loading mine so that it can shoot a soft unit, then charge a high toughness model with the claws, fall back next turn, rinse-repeat. Little pricier but I feel is more versatile and more likely to hit something.

I was considering throwing in a 5xCombi-flamer/Power Axe Terminator unit (235 points) to deepstrike next to a vehicle that was recently opened up by a Heldrake/Daemon Prince to burn up whatever the contents were inside (or just to drop them next a blob of squishies and light em up), but I'm having a hard time finding the rules on whether they can advance (almost always putting them within flamer reach, but not being able to use the bolter portion of their weapon; but I don't think they can advance the turn they DS)) the turn they teleport in. If they can't advance, I was also thinking of dropping a terminator sorceror (approximately 167 points) next to them to attempt Warptime, but if they can advance I'm not sure I'm willing to pay the additional 167 points to bring him.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 19:52:14


Post by: mahddoc


Don't forget Rhinos can get combi weapons, even a combi-bolter is another 4 shots at 12.

I think i will also try a list build around a huge daemon blob pushing up the middle.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/13 21:45:44


Post by: Darksider


What do you think of Poxwalkers?


They seem okay, but they also have only thougness 3 like cultists, but don't run away.

Think troups of 10 are better than blobs of more than 10, as they don't improve their combatskills by mutch.

How many do think will be good in an army? 20 or more?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 01:20:35


Post by: Nightlord1987


 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Poxwalkers?


They seem okay, but they also have only thougness 3 like cultists, but don't run away.

Think troups of 10 are better than blobs of more than 10, as they don't improve their combatskills by mutch.

How many do think will be good in an army? 20 or more?


They cap at 20, which kinda makes them pretty wierd. I would still consider them for themed lists. I play an annual Typhus and Zombies vs Azrael and Dark Angels game and I have alot of fun just creating tarpits and speed bumps the whole way, while daemon princes do the heavy lifting. But the list itself has one trick and it gets old fast. Zombies have no real offensive or defensive output. You just have to get used to that idea. They will die, die, and die again.

But me personally, I've always loved pitting crap cultists or zombies or solo spawn against enemy uber units and fancy deathstars just to waste time, so i will probably still take a few units.



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 01:21:44


Post by: Rydria


Heralds of slaanesh, seekers and hellflayers don't have the Daemonette keyword, despite being Daemonettes :/

While Daemonettes, exalted seeker chariots, seeker chariots and the Masque do have the Daemonette keyword.

This seems weird since in age of sigmar (I know different game) all of the above have the Daemonette keyword, also the other gods lesser daemons units including the heralds do have there respective keyword, so heralds of khorne and bloodcrusher are bloodletters for an example, this seems like an oversight.



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 02:28:14


Post by: labmouse42


 Darksider wrote:
What do you think of Poxwalkers?
.... don't run away.
That's their value right there, and what you pay the points for (and the FNP).

For 6 ppm, you don't need to pay for a commissar, nor do you need to worry about snipers. The cheapest commissar is 30 points to support a 50 man blob.

The disgustingly resilient means they are effectively 4ppm for just purposes of being a body to soak up fire.

So.....poxwalkers don't do squat for dealing damage, but for camping an objective they are pretty good -- arguably better than guard.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 03:31:20


Post by: luke1705


TBH I'm just waiting to see what comes out with the FW Indices...I need to know what An'ggrath does...how many Dreadclaw Drop Pods I'll be using for my Zerkers....yeah that's pretty much it lol. But until I know those things, the only thing I know for pretty much certain is that Magnus will be in my list.

Khorne please forgive me.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 03:37:07


Post by: Rydria


 luke1705 wrote:
TBH I'm just waiting to see what comes out with the FW Indices...I need to know what An'ggrath does...how many Dreadclaw Drop Pods I'll be using for my Zerkers....yeah that's pretty much it lol. But until I know those things, the only thing I know for pretty much certain is that Magnus will be in my list.

Khorne please forgive me.
I want to know what Zaraknel and a warhound titan does, I really want to unleash my god machine upon the enemies of the dark prince.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 03:53:11


Post by: techsoldaten


I played my first 8th edition game last night against Eldar. Performed well enough, but am revising the list. Looked like this:

- Chaos Lord, combi-plasma, jump pack
- Cultists, 20 man squad, x3
- Noise Marines, full sonics, Rhinos, 10 man squad, x2
- Raptors, 2 meltas, 10 man squad, x2
- Laspreds, x2
- Havocs, 4 lascannons, 10 man squad, x2

Noise Marines in Rhinos are awesome. Being able to disembark, shoot, and assault makes these guys a terrible threat.

Havocs are not awesome, but pretty good. Not scattering makes them a lot more useful.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 04:13:15


Post by: KingmanHighborn


Just looking at the models I have and just thinking about what I can do and came up with this:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh (1) - 189pts
1 Daemon Prince: 2 Malefic talons,Warp bolter,Wings

Warpsmith (1) - 109pts
1 Warpsmith: Power axe,Mechatendrils,Meltagun,Flamer,Bolt pistol

Sorcerer on Bike (1) - 148pts
1 Sorcerer: Force axe,Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Chaos Terminators (5) - 227pts
1 Terminator Champion: Pair of lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power axe
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Power maul
1 Chaos Terminator: Heavy flamer,Power sword

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Helbrute (1) - 147pts
1 Helbrute: Twin lascannon,Missile launcher

Chaos Bikers (6) - 244pts
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Power fist,Combi-bolter
2 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter,Plasma gun
3 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Heldrake (1) - 215pts
1 Heldrake: Baleflamer,Heldrake claws

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 163pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Combi-flamer,Power sword
2 Chaos Space Marine: Flamer,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 83pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 183pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Plasma Pistol,Power fist
2 Chaos Space Marine: Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 83pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 157pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Power fist,Plasma Pistol
9 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 72pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter

Chaos Land Raider (1) - 356pts
1 Chaos Land Raider: Twin heavy bolter,2 Twin lascannons

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters







8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 04:22:29


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Just looking at the models I have and just thinking about what I can do and came up with this:

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh (1) - 189pts
1 Daemon Prince: 2 Malefic talons,Warp bolter,Wings

Warpsmith (1) - 109pts
1 Warpsmith: Power axe,Mechatendrils,Meltagun,Flamer,Bolt pistol

Sorcerer on Bike (1) - 148pts
1 Sorcerer: Force axe,Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Chaos Terminators (5) - 227pts
1 Terminator Champion: Pair of lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power axe
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Power maul
1 Chaos Terminator: Heavy flamer,Power sword

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Helbrute (1) - 147pts
1 Helbrute: Twin lascannon,Missile launcher

Chaos Bikers (6) - 244pts
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Power fist,Combi-bolter
2 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter,Plasma gun
3 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Heldrake (1) - 215pts
1 Heldrake: Baleflamer,Heldrake claws

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 163pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Combi-flamer,Power sword
2 Chaos Space Marine: Flamer,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 83pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 183pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Plasma Pistol,Power fist
2 Chaos Space Marine: Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 83pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 157pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Power fist,Plasma Pistol
9 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 72pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter

Chaos Land Raider (1) - 356pts
1 Chaos Land Raider: Twin heavy bolter,2 Twin lascannons

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters







Looks like a fun list, but who is going to ride in the Land Raider? I would either drop the raider or drop the rhinos and let them pile into the clown raider.

Also, I have been looking over these rules pretty diligently for the past week and have just now realized that The warp bolter is a thing. How have I missed this? It's not that great or anything, it just boggles my mind that somehow I have looked at the DP rules probably 15 times and somehow glanced over it. My next daemon prince is getting a Hellboy gun!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 05:14:24


Post by: KingmanHighborn


I'm glad because my old Daemon Prince model has a gun modeled in the fricken' arm. And it's fairly cheap. I figured I'd put the Termies in the Land Raider though. I'm a sucker for rolling thunder type lists.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 05:19:00


Post by: Gordon Shumway


I would personally get rid of two rhinos then and take something with more firepower. Those two footsloggers can hold back objectives, the lazy grunts. Plus, it looks like in this edition you really are going to want backfield placeholders to stop enemy reserves and preserve the 9" bubble. Those two lazy units actually serve a purpose, but don't tell them that.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 06:53:10


Post by: Terminal


What's the best CSM firepower platform to support a primarily-Daemons army?

I'm looking at Havocs with MLs or Autocannons, as they can be more durable backfield objective holders as well.

But Helbrutes and Predators can put out a lot of shots too...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 07:15:42


Post by: Latro_


Anything shooty with the daemon keyword might be nice, then you can use daemon KW buffs on them

heldrakes, defilers, forgefiends (obilts although they suck)


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 16:22:01


Post by: Malefic666


So there's no reason to take CSMs over Havocs right? 10 Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters make a cheap dakka objective / midfield camper unit.

Cultists look useful but how the hell do we stop Tyranid (deep striking) multi charges / pile ins (6" for Hormas) dragging everything into combat? Do we got with 6x10 man or 3x20 man? Every game I've had against Nids I end up getting most of my army charged & tied up, I'm crap & still learning the game but with objectives it's not easy to avoid it... any tips?

Also, how good are Helbrutes with Fist, H.Flamer & Scourge! A ton of attacks & support Cultists/CSMs nicely. Heldrakes are good too, love the fact they can fall back & keep shooting.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 16:30:43


Post by: buddha


 Fenris-77 wrote:
 buddha wrote:
How are people's list building going? I want to just try a general take anything approach but can't seem to make anything work. I feel CSMs are pretty pricey in this edition.
I've had sort of the same problem. What I've done is gone back to basics and started with the psychology of the list and then work from there out into how it will deal with two archetypal lists: horde squishies and lotsa fatties, with some additional consideration given to overpowered psychic phases, flyers and alpha strike.

1. The best point to consider - you mostly aren't playing against Magnus and three knights, or 10 Taurox Primes and a horde of deep striking Scion Plasma Squads, or 10+ smites a turn. Thank god for normal club games or we'd never play. If you're a regular tournament goer you need to consider those WAAC lists, otherwise just ignore them and relax (only crazy people actually build and paint those lists )

2. Include enough volume dakka (or HtH0 that you won't be shocked and dismayed to be facing 100-150 conscripts or boyz (or more).

3. Include enough punchy firepower (and HtH) to be able to deal with 2-4 medium toughness vehicle type targets in the first two turns. Lots of lists are going to feature (for example) a couple of rhinos and a couple of Dreads fronting for a handful of hitty-killy HtH characters, all running full tilt up the middle of the board. You want a plan for lists like this.

4. What are you doing about deep strike type deployment (yours and your opponents). Do you have some bubble wrap to push his DS away from your support units? Conversely, if you have some (or a lot!) of DS what are you planning to do when the opponent does the same thing to you? Dakka and fast flanking units are the usual answers to the second question, generally.

5. If you go HtH heavy, do you have enough mobility to overcome high maneuver lists that want to slide around the edges of the board and shoot you to death?

Those are the sorts of things I'm thinking about for 8th. Answers will come through playtesting, but here are some of the ideas I've been work so far:

1. Winged Demon Princes are awesome. Mobility and HtH punch fills a real hole in a lot of Choas lists.
2. Heldrakes are probably the best psych-outs chaos can bring. 200 pts (at most) that a lot of guys will spend an inordinate amount of time trying to kill.
3. CSMs are midfield support at best in most armies (IMO). Fatties like Dreads and DPs are punchier and Rhinos are a better fast character screen. I don't have an issue with the value at 12pts, but I can't see myself driving them up the middle of the board into the teeth of the enemy.

Most of my lists so far are 2-3 demon princes and some HtH fatties (Helbrutes mostly) for driving up-board. sometimes with Berserkers, sometimes with Demons (or both). Empty RhInos are super useful in this role too. Then you add some long range support - Havoks, Predators, etc. Then I add some speed, either via DS, Summoning, or just fastness. Seekers are wicked fast. Termies in DS are a good psychological weapon before they even hit the board. Stir in one Heldrake for distraction and harassment and I'm mostly there. Lots of variations on that theme obviously. I've been thinking a lot about the usefulness of Quicksilver Quickness to alter a lot of opponents battle plans.

So, there you go, a long rambling account of my current thoughts about CSM list building and the direction of the meta. Hope something in there helps.


No that's a lot of help thanks. Now I just need to decide what attribute of the army I want to focus on ....


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 16:32:40


Post by: andysonic1


 Mezmerro wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
Could you add the Chainaxe to that list?

Sure
Here's for a Lord:
Spoiler:

Here's for a 'zerker Champion (without factoring his two fights per phase, so if the champ survives to the end of the phase you may safely double all numbers):
Spoiler:
For your viewing pleasure, now with 100% more chainaxe. Notice that the Chainaxe competes pretty well with the Power Maul and other weapons for damage output in certain situations due to how Toughness works now. It appears -AP should be a primary factor when looking at weapon options.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/14 21:54:05


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Latro_ wrote:
Anything shooty with the daemon keyword might be nice, then you can use daemon KW buffs on them

heldrakes, defilers, forgefiends (obilts although they suck)

Maybe even a Lord of Skulls. With the price reduction they might actually be okay in 8th.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 01:33:56


Post by: Terminal


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:
Anything shooty with the daemon keyword might be nice, then you can use daemon KW buffs on them

heldrakes, defilers, forgefiends (obilts although they suck)

Maybe even a Lord of Skulls. With the price reduction they might actually be okay in 8th.


That's an interesting idea. The LoS has more attacks and slightly deadlier guns than the Renegade Knight, and is both Daemon and Legion.

I'm also looking at trying out a Forgefiend, with two Autocannons and teeth. This'll be less expensive to build [$-wise] than the LoS.

However, the LoS and Forgefiend need either a CSM Lord or Daemon Prince to babysit them in order to get the rerolls. Neither princes nor Lords can take Heavy weapons, so they'd be a little bit wasted sitting in the backfield...

Of course, I'm already running a Tetrad-in-all-but-name, so the Engine would probably have to advance forward towards the fray anyway. The Teeth on the Forgefiend would keep him a threat to MEQs.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 02:21:40


Post by: Breazeal


So on helbrutes, what allows you to take two power skourges?

Swap first first for skourge, turn MM into fist and then trade the new fist out for a skourge?

I want to make sure before I start modeling these options.

ALSO, on the same line of thinking...

Rhinos for sure can take two combi-bolters? 1 base and 1 taken as a combi weapon?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 02:32:12


Post by: saint_red


Just going back to the Helbrute discussion quickly. I don't think taking double Power Scourges will be legal. The Helbrute comes armed with a MM and Fist, and you have the option to swap the Fist for a Scourge + swap the MM for a Fist. I am expecting an FAQ to clarify, but to be safe I wouldn't go building Helbrutes with double Scourges.

It's also worth mentioning that the Helbrute Fist can have a built in heavy flamer, which could make it worth taking over the Scourge anyway.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 03:18:38


Post by: Gordon Shumway


saint_red wrote:
Just going back to the Helbrute discussion quickly. I don't think taking double Power Scourges will be legal. The Helbrute comes armed with a MM and Fist, and you have the option to swap the Fist for a Scourge + swap the MM for a Fist. I am expecting an FAQ to clarify, but to be safe I wouldn't go building Helbrutes with double Scourges.

It's also worth mentioning that the Helbrute Fist can have a built in heavy flamer, which could make it worth taking over the Scourge anyway.


You are probably correct, but then why put it on a different line and word it differently from the missle launcher option directly above it?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 05:33:54


Post by: KingmanHighborn


Could do this too, rather then drop the rhinos, I could drop a helbrute and put down a silly number of cultists...The two remaining helbrutes with autocannons, and the cultists with heavy stubbers I think could hold down the backline while the rest of the fast stuff goes and claims objectives and what not.

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment 2999 points

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh (1) - 189pts
1 Daemon Prince: 2 Malefic talonss,Warp bolter,Wings

Sorcerer on Bike (1) - 148pts
1 Sorcerer: Force axe,Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Warpsmith (1) - 109pts
1 Warpsmith: Power axe,Mechatendrils,Meltagun,Flamer,Bolt pistol

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 167pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Plasma Pistol,Power sword
2 Chaos Space Marine: Plasma gun,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 85pts
1 Chaos Rhino: 2 Combi-bolters,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 163pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Combi-flamer,Power sword
2 Chaos Space Marine: Flamer,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 83pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter,Havoc launcher

Chaos Space Marines (10) - 191pts
1 Aspiring Champion: Power fist,Plasma Pistol
2 Chaos Space Marine: Meltagun,Bolt pistol
7 Chaos Space Marine: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

Chaos Rhino (1) - 72pts
1 Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter

Chaos Cultists (30) - 162pts
1 Cultist Champion: Autogun
3 Chaos Cultist: Heavy stubber
26 Chaos Cultist: Autogun

Chaos Terminators (5) - 230pts
1 Terminator Champion: Pair of lightning claw
2 Chaos Terminator: Combi-flamer,Power axe
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Power maul
1 Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter,Chainfist

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Helbrute (1) - 130pts
1 Helbrute: Reaper autocannon,Helbrute fist

Chaos Bikers (5) - 207pts
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Power fist,Combi-bolter
2 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Plasma gun
2 Chaos Biker: Bolt pistol,Combi-bolter

Heldrake (1) - 215pts
1 Heldrake: Baleflamer,Heldrake claws

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters

Maulerfiend (1) - 181pts
1 Maulerfiend: Maulerfiend fists,Two magma cutters

Chaos Land Raider (1) - 356pts
1 Chaos Land Raider: Twin heavy bolter,2 Twin lascannons



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 17:15:59


Post by: sassmcsass


I played a small game yesterday against Orks. Blastmasters seemed amazing. Their versatility is what really shines: I killed a four-wound deffkopta one turn, then dropped four ork boys the next. Huge to be able to move and still blast the heavies.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 21:55:37


Post by: zechariahsword


sassmcsass wrote:
I played a small game yesterday against Orks. Blastmasters seemed amazing. Their versatility is what really shines: I killed a four-wound deffkopta one turn, then dropped four ork boys the next. Huge to be able to move and still blast the heavies.


I feel like an army of Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters and Havocs with Missile Launchers could take on almost any kind of army, their range of toughness coverage is legit combined together. How many units/blastmasters did you end up taking to that game?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 22:00:11


Post by: buddha


I'm starting to like noise marines more and more. I didn't realize they had two attacks base so with chainswords are very cost effective CC units.

I figure two 10 man sonic/blastmaster squads and a nice CC focused squad out of a landraider sounds like a good core.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/15 23:16:03


Post by: Debilitate


I have a deredeo with exolascannons, a sicaran, and a Fire Raptor from my 30k list. Any speculation on what that brings us (hopefully a crapload of shooting)?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 01:36:18


Post by: sassmcsass


It was only a 500 point game, so my whole army consisted of a sorcerer and two min squads of Marines, both with blastmasters. One unit had Sonic blasters, the other had bolters and chainsword. I split them up and took down a warboss, unit of nobs, deffkopta and runtherd before my opponent just conceded. Never lost a model, because I kept out of pistol/assault range all game.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 04:37:08


Post by: arinnoor


Hey guys got a question joining the ranks of the death guard in the soon coming 8th and I've found myself in a spot. Between a friend and I we'll have three sets of the chaos half of the starter and I'm not sure how best to equip the plague marines. Any suggestions?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 08:17:42


Post by: mcsheehy


Im loading my plague marines out with Bolters.

Simply put, I'm bringing them as my troop Tax.

Allowing me to spend elsewhere on killy stuff.
They are survivable and 3x 5man units is pretty tough.

If you are getting 7 P/Marines. Id equip 5 with bolters and 2 with Blight Launchers. (they are nice, but cost a lot). This atleast gives you the option,



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 08:43:30


Post by: Latro_


 buddha wrote:
I'm starting to like noise marines more and more. I didn't realize they had two attacks base so with chainswords are very cost effective CC units.

I figure two 10 man sonic/blastmaster squads and a nice CC focused squad out of a landraider sounds like a good core.


20pts a model though and they still die like normal marines.
With 2 attacks and shooty weapons they still seem to have that trying to be two different things going on without the durability to pull it off.

Rubric marines are the same cost with the inf bolter, think i'd probably rather have them


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 12:14:15


Post by: macluvin


 Latro_ wrote:
 buddha wrote:
I'm starting to like noise marines more and more. I didn't realize they had two attacks base so with chainswords are very cost effective CC units.

I figure two 10 man sonic/blastmaster squads and a nice CC focused squad out of a landraider sounds like a good core.


20pts a model though and they still die like normal marines.
With 2 attacks and shooty weapons they still seem to have that trying to be two different things going on without the durability to pull it off.

Rubric marines are the same cost with the inf bolter, think i'd probably rather have them


The extra psyker is pretty nice too. And the extra survivability. However, Noise Marines still get their shots off when they die due to their special rules, have some of the best anti-GEQ and heavy weapon options (in my opinion) in the codex (the blastmaster is a vast improvement over the missile launcher for a very modest fee, ignoring cover is nice, and sonic blasters make for slightly more mobility for a shooty killy unit), and they do close combat very well. Best of all is that their weapons allow them to switch effortlessly between shooty and choppy. 2 attacks base and the potential for all assault weapons for the advance and shoot and charge maneuver, as well as being able to dig in and raise hell with their noise makes them both versatile and pretty alright for their points. They still die like normal marines but they kill like 2 of them each!

*edit* I did not mean to infer that Rubrics aren't as good; they are just better at other really cool things like killing MEQ's and not dying!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 13:19:45


Post by: andysonic1


http://www.warhammerdigital.com/warhammer-40000/featured/forces-of-chaos-index.html

Happy to announce that Blood Slaughterer's are STILL better Maulerfiends, not only dishing out more attacks but tearing into infantry like rampaging monsters while also getting +2 to their charge distance when they HIT a vehicle or monstrous creature with their speargun. All for around the same price as a Maulerfiend (same power rating). I can't make the image any bigger but I blew it up on my phone and you can read the slightly blurry text that way. The thing is an absolute beast against anything, infantry, vehicle, or monster, easily able to flip tanks in one charge and bite hard into infantry hordes (and a nearby Lord will give it reroll 1s, nearby Apostle reroll all). If the points ARE the same as a Mauler I'm selling mine off and getting these bad bois.



8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 13:28:44


Post by: labmouse42


 buddha wrote:
I'm starting to like noise marines more and more. I didn't realize they had two attacks base so with chainswords are very cost effective CC units. .
Noise marines with chainswords are not a horrible unit -- point efficiency wise.

Their damage per point is 18 vs GEQ. That is the same as identically geared chosen. It's not as good as khorne bezerkers. Khorne bezerkers have a damage ratio of 11.475 (one of the best I've seen). Swinging twice in assault is just to good.

The sonic blaster is a solid weapon. It's better than a combi-bolter IMHO because it can deliver it's full volley at 24", and you can advance and shoot it -- which makes it's threat range ~33.5" That's quite respectable. Given that they can ignore cover, they are extremely good against infantry.

Noise marines get a nice advantage over chosen, they get to make an extra attack upon death. It's not a 'super ability' but as it's not bad. Since games have between 5-7 turns, that shot is a big deal. If the game lasts 5 turns, and the noise marine does on turn 3, it has a total of 4 rounds of shooting.

As mentioned, the only drawback is that, at 20 points per model, they die easily. Their resiliance-per-point vs bolters is only 2.22. This is compared to normal CSM at 1.44. A 10 man CSM squad with 2 HB has a 25 damage rating vs GEQ, where the sonic blaster noise marine has a 22.5. The noise marines are much more maneuverable - but the CSM with 2 HB are a bit tougher per points.

Oddly enough blastmasters dont' really improve the damage per point vs rhinos as you might think. They, however are better concentrations of points than more sonic-blasters. Basically this means you have more points invested into a smaller area and if it is just as efficient as a broader spending of points, it's easier to crack a rhino open. Think of it like a hammer hitting a board, or a hammer hitting a nail on a board. Both do the same amount of force to the board, but the one hitting the nail will go in.

All in all, they are decent solutions. They are not the 'all stars' of the Chaos Faction -- but they are decent.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 13:45:47


Post by: Loopstah


 andysonic1 wrote:
http://www.warhammerdigital.com/warhammer-40000/featured/forces-of-chaos-index.html

Happy to announce that Blood Slaughterer's are STILL better Maulerfiends, not only dishing out more attacks but tearing into infantry like rampaging monsters while also getting +2 to their charge distance when they HIT a vehicle or monstrous creature with their speargun. All for around the same price as a Maulerfiend (same power rating). I can't make the image any bigger but I blew it up on my phone and you can read the slightly blurry text that way. The thing is an absolute beast against anything, infantry, vehicle, or monster, easily able to flip tanks in one charge and bite hard into infantry hordes (and a nearby Lord will give it reroll 1s, nearby Apostle reroll all). If the points ARE the same as a Mauler I'm selling mine off and getting these bad bois.]


Looking at that it seems like the harpoon is a better choice than a second blade? I guess it depends on points.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 13:52:57


Post by: andysonic1


Loopstah wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
http://www.warhammerdigital.com/warhammer-40000/featured/forces-of-chaos-index.html

Happy to announce that Blood Slaughterer's are STILL better Maulerfiends, not only dishing out more attacks but tearing into infantry like rampaging monsters while also getting +2 to their charge distance when they HIT a vehicle or monstrous creature with their speargun. All for around the same price as a Maulerfiend (same power rating). I can't make the image any bigger but I blew it up on my phone and you can read the slightly blurry text that way. The thing is an absolute beast against anything, infantry, vehicle, or monster, easily able to flip tanks in one charge and bite hard into infantry hordes (and a nearby Lord will give it reroll 1s, nearby Apostle reroll all). If the points ARE the same as a Mauler I'm selling mine off and getting these bad bois.]


Looking at that it seems like the harpoon is a better choice than a second blade? I guess it depends on points.
Yeah it depends on points, I'm betting the harpoon is going to be far more expensive than the second blade but it has a lot more utility, slingshot yourself into a vehicle then pile in/consolidate into something else.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/16 18:47:21


Post by: mcsheehy


Hey guys,

New to this Thread.

Lots of things to Digest. But I'm looking for some pointers.
Has anyone tried R/Knights?
What worked for you and are they worth the 500pts?

I'm currently starting Chaos. Have wanted to for quite a few years and I now consider my Space Wolf collection finished.

Anyway, I mainly want Mortarion!

My main opponents will be Tau. Which are pretty stupid with their "Allocate Wounds to Drones" .

My thoughts, let me know what you think.

Battalion +3CP

HQ :
2 Daemon Price - 360pts
MoN, Wings, Talons

Troops :
3x 5 Plague Marines 315pts
Bolters (suggestions)

Fast Attack :
3x Bloat Drones - 474pts

Supreme Command : 1CP

HQ :
2 Plague Casters 220pts
Herald of Nurgle 70pts

Lord of War :
Renegade Knight 526pts
Rapid Fire Battle Cannon or Avenger Gattling Cannon
Thermal Cannon?
Twin Icarus Cannon

______
1,965 pts
Room for some Upgrades. Maybe upgrade marines?

I have considered dropping the knight all together.
Adding in some Mutilators for tank hunting?
Essentially a Daemon Prices profile at 3 strong. Not far off the points. Useful with the new Deep strike im thinking.


Any suggestions are welcome.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 01:47:09


Post by: andysonic1


Just downloaded my Index Chaos IA and HOOLLLYYY SSSHHIIITTT the Hellforged Kharybdis is a fething beast!

M15, WS/BS 4, T8, W16, 3+

But that doesn't even fething matter beeeccaaauussee

Melta Cutters - You can use this attack when you charge a vehicle, monster, or titantic keyword. Replaced all your other attacks. 1 attack, S16, AP -5, 2D6 Damage. Hits on a 2+, will almost always wound on a 2+.

Or you can just use your EIGHT S9, AP2, 2D BLADED STRUTS. 300 points total. 300 points to drop in and ram a tank to death instantly. I think I might be in love.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 01:57:26


Post by: whembly


What about the dreadclaws?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 02:33:18


Post by: andysonic1


Droppod
Spoiler:


daddy pod
Spoiler:


Something to remember: you don't have to deploy the drop pods in reserve. You can now start them on the table. There's still no reason to but the option is there.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 05:31:27


Post by: Loopstah


So glad they removed the stupid eat a model from the drop pods, no more eaten dreads.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 10:19:42


Post by: skybax


So, what would be your choice for anti-armour?

Against tanks, best damage output per point goes to Chosen with power fists (2.5 of the output of a marines bought in squads of 5, with a plasma and a combi-plasma), but I can't think of a less durable unit.

Berzerkers in squads of 5 with fists, melta havocs, khorne princes with claws, and Lords of Skulls are decent (1.5 of the marine damage output), and helbrute is kinda worse (1.0 against a rhino and 1.5 against a LR, and that goes only for the most efficient, dual power fist version). Kharn is good (1.5 vs rhino, 2.0 vs LR), but you can have only one.

Everything else I checked (including Land Raiders, Lascannon havocs, Predators, Heldrakes, Maulerfiends and Vindicators) was worse at AA.

And in theory, you could tarpit vehicles with daemons or tzaangors, but daemons are slow, so I guess they can be killed off by dedicated anti-infantry easily.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 10:54:12


Post by: Benlisted


So how are we thinking of kitting out our Contemptors? https://postimg.org/image/csea3mk9x/

Personally, I'm liking the look of double claws and either Hellflamers or Soulburners (2D3 2+ to hit mortal wounds is pretty tasty) depending on need to go anti-horde or anti-... bigger stuff. None of the bigger guns seem that inspiring, unless some LD shenanigans can be figured out with the Butcher Cannon? But how would you even model that thing...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 11:30:27


Post by: macluvin


I would say that on the plus side, our contemptors are slightly better, but I can't believe we have to go to Forgeworld to use the contemptor, and also I can't help but believe that the loyalists are getting a contemptor that is just as good as ours is...


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 13:48:45


Post by: Rydria


How does the decimator stack up to the comtempter is it worth considering now ?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 14:49:12


Post by: Loopstah


You can equip a Decimator with two Soulburners for 4-12 mortal wounds a turn.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 21:52:08


Post by: Darkseid


I'll run my Decimator with two Stormlasers. That's 10 shots per phase with S6 AP-2. Quite nice against infanty and light vehilces for 140pts.

EDIT: Also the Bloodslaughterer looks quite nice. At 180 it's pricy for a walker, but it has 9 attacks against infantry and a guarantied 6" advance move.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 22:19:15


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 andysonic1 wrote:
Loopstah wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
http://www.warhammerdigital.com/warhammer-40000/featured/forces-of-chaos-index.html

Happy to announce that Blood Slaughterer's are STILL better Maulerfiends, not only dishing out more attacks but tearing into infantry like rampaging monsters while also getting +2 to their charge distance when they HIT a vehicle or monstrous creature with their speargun. All for around the same price as a Maulerfiend (same power rating). I can't make the image any bigger but I blew it up on my phone and you can read the slightly blurry text that way. The thing is an absolute beast against anything, infantry, vehicle, or monster, easily able to flip tanks in one charge and bite hard into infantry hordes (and a nearby Lord will give it reroll 1s, nearby Apostle reroll all). If the points ARE the same as a Mauler I'm selling mine off and getting these bad bois.]


Looking at that it seems like the harpoon is a better choice than a second blade? I guess it depends on points.
Yeah it depends on points, I'm betting the harpoon is going to be far more expensive than the second blade but it has a lot more utility, slingshot yourself into a vehicle then pile in/consolidate into something else.


They both count the same--free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Benlisted wrote:
So how are we thinking of kitting out our Contemptors? https://postimg.org/image/csea3mk9x/

Personally, I'm liking the look of double claws and either Hellflamers or Soulburners (2D3 2+ to hit mortal wounds is pretty tasty) depending on need to go anti-horde or anti-... bigger stuff. None of the bigger guns seem that inspiring, unless some LD shenanigans can be figured out with the Butcher Cannon? But how would you even model that thing...


The decimator butcher cannon fits fine on it.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/17 22:30:54


Post by: BoomWolf


Anyone that has the book mind sharing the decimator engine? are they any good?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 03:43:03


Post by: Debilitate


Relic Deredeos and Sicarans both look fairly legit. Leviathans look great. A lot of good looking stuff in general.

I haven't seen the Fire Raptor rules yet but I think it's going to be a freakish amount of dakka considering how much they're gonna cost (mid to high 300s).


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 05:29:49


Post by: stormcraft


Fire Raptor Dakka:
10 S6, - 2, 2
24 S5, - 1, 1
2 S8, - 3, 3


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 05:47:54


Post by: Debilitate


stormcraft wrote:
Fire Raptor Dakka:
10 S6, - 2, 2
24 S5, - 1, 1
2 S8, - 3, 3


Good lord.

EDIT: thanks friend

Does it still hit on a 2+ (strafing run) ?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 05:53:00


Post by: Gordon Shumway


No, just a straight 3+BS, going to 4+ once it takes half damage


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 07:23:22


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone that has the book mind sharing the decimator engine? are they any good?
.

They look excellent.
90 base. 30-50 per weapon ..
Stats are basically a 10" move dread.
Weapons are all good.
Soulburner petard , 2d3 shots, r24" each hit a mortal wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Butcher cannon is a souped up autocannon which causes a -2ld debuff.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 08:04:43


Post by: BoomWolf


Captyn_Bob wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone that has the book mind sharing the decimator engine? are they any good?
.

They look excellent.
90 base. 30-50 per weapon ..
Stats are basically a 10" move dread.
Weapons are all good.
Soulburner petard , 2d3 shots, r24" each hit a mortal wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Butcher cannon is a souped up autocannon which causes a -2ld debuff.


Sounds tasty, any chance you can PM me a picture of that dataslate?


EDIT:
Ok, now that I've seen the slate, I'm so conflicted.
If I want a melee battering ram, do I take a decimator, or a helbrute?
Do I bother giving it two melee weapons, or a melee and a gun? (either one of them)

The helbrute has the tasty crazed rule, but the decimator is so much harder to kill between invuls and regeneration.
The helbrute is deadlier against T5/T6 (wounding on 2s unlike the decimator wounding on 3s), but the decimator has an additional base attack-and it moves faster, so hitting combat should be simpler.
The decimator also has build-in flamers in his melee weapons who can pile up some more damage to the unfortunate bastard stuck fighting it.


Gha! spoiled by choices is not how I'm used to be with chaos!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 10:28:01


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I am quite likeing Arkos the faithless.
He can "infiltrate". And is the only thing I've seen so far that gives a bonus to charge distance.
Only problem is he's alpha legion, and alphas have nothing right now. The only other chaos infiltrator is nurglings.

But, if alphas have nothing.. they can have everything. Alpha legion bezerkers may be unfluffy, but it is playable..

So infiltrate Arkos with a nurgling screen, then charge in with dreadclaw bezerkers and terminators with icons of wrath, a smattering of helldrakes and a warptime big beasty.
Could be fun.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 10:46:29


Post by: fishwaffle2232


What do people think of the new rules for warp talons? I'm new to 40K and I know they didn't get much use in the last ed.
They still look pretty expensive, but deepflame strike sounds like it could be good, especially with no enemies being able to overwatch on the turn they deploy.

I'm keen to get them for fluff reasons, but I'm holding off until I hear how they play in 8th.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 10:59:53


Post by: Captyn_Bob


They can get buffed by both csm and daemon characters and have a pretty decent ability, so I think worthwhile.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:03:07


Post by: Hatachi


I think combi-plasma chosen look to be fairly beastly. Throw them in a rhino and they're going to get in range to destroy at least one MEQ unit completely. Too bad we have no apothecaries :(. Warp Talons went from bad to great with the ability to negate overwatch the turn they come in.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:28:31


Post by: fishwaffle2232


Hatachi wrote:
I think combi-plasma chosen look to be fairly beastly. Throw them in a rhino and they're going to get in range to destroy at least one MEQ unit completely. Too bad we have no apothecaries :(. Warp Talons went from bad to great with the ability to negate overwatch the turn they come in.


I like the sound of that option for the chosen, sounds very deadly. I'm running a chaosy fallen army that I've been slowly adding to over the years. With the new rules I'm very hesitant to run actual fallen over chosen. Not being able to infiltrate or use transports really diminishes their usefulness in my eyes, which is unfortunate.

On the other hand it's good to hear warp talons are good again, I've been wanting to convert some with sanguinary wings to run them as fallen who spent too long in the warp.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:34:52


Post by: saint_red


Havocs are 3ppm cheaper than Chosen, so take them if you want to roam around plasma-ing things to death. The only real difference is they take a Heavy Support slot rather than an Elites one.

In regards to Decimator v Helbrute v Contemptor, I think it mostly comes down to what weapons you want to use and if you can use the Daemon keyword effectively. It's worth mentioning that the Helbrute can put heavy flamers in his fists as well.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:36:28


Post by: Darkseid


Captyn_Bob 727523 9436705 wrote:
Soulburner petard , 2d3 shots, r24" each hit a mortal wound


Don't forget that the petard can hurt the decimator on a 1 as well. He'll get one mortal wound on average each turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:

If I want a melee battering ram, do I take a decimator, or a helbrute?
Do I bother giving it two melee weapons, or a melee and a gun? (either one of them)


If you don't mind using Khorne units, try a Bloodslaughterer. They are as survivable as the decimator, very fast with 10" move and an guarantied 6" advance. Can butcher both infantry and monsters / vehicles.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:53:38


Post by: Latro_


I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 11:58:26


Post by: Captyn_Bob


One mortal wound per turn (max) isn't too bad for outputting 4d3 shots. And you heal one wound per turn as well, so no big problem
Shooting output can be improved with a lord or prince.
A warpsmith or hellwright could do battlefield repairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Give them the mark of tzeentch and stick the changling near them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do people feel about using Castellax Achea as proxy tzeentch decimators?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 12:47:07


Post by: BoomWolf


 Darkseid wrote:
Captyn_Bob 727523 9436705 wrote:
Soulburner petard , 2d3 shots, r24" each hit a mortal wound


Don't forget that the petard can hurt the decimator on a 1 as well. He'll get one mortal wound on average each turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:

If I want a melee battering ram, do I take a decimator, or a helbrute?
Do I bother giving it two melee weapons, or a melee and a gun? (either one of them)


If you don't mind using Khorne units, try a Bloodslaughterer. They are as survivable as the decimator, very fast with 10" move and an guarantied 6" advance. Can butcher both infantry and monsters / vehicles.


I'm a tzeentch player, ain't going to bring khorne things in my army.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 12:49:52


Post by: Demantiae


Captyn_Bob wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do people feel about using Castellax Achea as proxy tzeentch decimators?


Looks good but it might be too small? Is the Deci bigger?

A big difference between the Deci and Contemptor are the wounds. Deci has 8 and contemptor ahs 10, so it has to contend with diminishing stats as it takes wounds. Contemptor is almost as fast - 9" compared to the Deci 10" but it loses that speed as it starts to die. Decimator looks like it's the fastest dreadnought out there, which for a CC brute is going to be quite handy. They both have invul saves of 5++ but the contemptor gets that boosted to 4++ in combat, and they can both regen except the Deci gets 1 wound per turn whilst the contemptor has to kill stuff in combat, but gets 1 wound per roll of 5+ (with 1d6 per model killed in CC) so if the contemptor kills a bunch of guys it can regen a lot of wounds. Contemptor can pretty much take the same weaponry plus more than the Deci (it can get soulburner weaponry built into it's claws instead of flamers and they don't cause it to wound itself) but the contemptor costs a bit more and is slightly slower than the Deci (and much slower once if it takes a bit of damage). Deci looks like the budget FW dread tbh.

I love my new LR Achiles. I was building my list around the old IA Vraks list (think it was the Vraks list) where barrrage weapons caused dangerous terrain markers to be left. The Achilles was going to be great for that, but now in 8th it's a beast! It's gun is 48" indirect fire 2d3 mortal wounds. Stick it in the centre of the board and it can hit anything, anywhere, anytime! And with 4 multi-melta shots don't even think of coming near it with a vehicle. It gets the Hellforged regen rule (1d6 per model killed in CC, regens a wound on a 5+) so it can regen for days. And the kicker is it has 19 wounds (only a single wound short of a Spartan LoW...) and a 4++ invul save! God frickin luck trying to kill this beast! And if you do manage to damage it, well it just charges you and starts regening those wounds. And the more you damage it the better it gets in CC, sot he better the odds of wounding and getting wounds back.... I can see this thing being banned from tables - it can't be killed but it's pumping out so much damage that you have to kill it to stop it just sniping your best stuff off the table. And to be even more annoying I'm sticking 5 combi-plasma chosen in it with a combi-plas lord. Because what my opponents really want is all that plasma disembarking from an unkillable beast right in their face! The vehicle comes in at <500 pts though so it's not quite 25% of your 2000 limit. But given that you need mortal wounds (and lots of them) to stand a chance at killing it it should make it's points back in what it can take out before it goes down (if it ever does).


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 13:26:37


Post by: Loopstah


A Decimator also gets Daemon buffs from Heralds and stuff, while a Contemptor only gets Legion buffs.

I'm also very happy with my Achilles, though now it lost the get angry when injured rules it fits my Khorne only rules a bit less. Still it does get a mark now.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 13:30:32


Post by: Captyn_Bob


It does get better in combat the more injured it gets, which is pretty cool.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 13:49:20


Post by: andysonic1


 BoomWolf wrote:

Ok, now that I've seen the slate, I'm so conflicted.
If I want a melee battering ram, do I take a decimator, or a helbrute?
Do I bother giving it two melee weapons, or a melee and a gun? (either one of them)
In terms of melee power:

The Helbrute, at 155 points for a fist and scourge, has 8 attacks total (5 fist, 3 scourge) and can basically kill everything with impunity. It is your best bang for your buck but is slow and doesn't get an invul.

The Decimator is going to be 184 with it's stock close combat weapons and 5 attacks, making it less killy than the Helbrute HOWEVER with a 10 inch move and deamon save it will last longer and get into the fight faster. It also regens a wound per turn. Unfortunetly it's claws at only +2 str so it's worse against infantry (EDIT: against T5+ it's worse) than the Helbrute but the same against tanks. Oh, it also comes stock with two hellflamers which are pretty nice flamer weapons, so overall if you have the points this is the better option over a Helbrute.

The Blood Slaughterer just puts both of the above to shame. SHAME I TELL YOU! At 180 points it takes everything good about a decimator and everything good about a helbrute and says , "I got dis." At full strength, you're looking at 6 str 10 melee hits at Helbrute power fist damage, plus the Harpoon which gets you into combat faster, while moving 10 inches already plus always advancing plus 6. Oh, and against infantry it gets +2 attacks. I called these guys Maulerfiends+1, but they're really every other walker+1. Honestly this thing is bananas and every Khorne army should be dropping their melee Maulers, Brutes, Decimators, and Contemptors for these bad boys. They're just soooooo much better overall, dealing just about the same damage as the Helbrute while getting there twice as fast.

Yesterday I ran two melee brutes and two slaughterers in the same army. The brutes, bless their souls, killed anything they got to (I even used a counter stratagem to turn and punch my opponents lord to death out of turn, which was hilarious), but the slaughterers outlasted them while flipping tanks and infantry squads. My advice for anyone running melee walkers is to MAKE SURE THEY ARE ON YOUR DEPLOYMENT EDGE! Don't be an andysonic1 and deploy your helbrute waaaay away from the enemy like wtf was I even doing.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 15:26:03


Post by: demontalons


For straight Melee Power go Bloods, with a flying demon Prince to reroll 1s.

Personally Im taking a Contemptor w/Multimelta,soulburner and deathclaw Next to a DP, its causing D3 mortal wounds on a rerollable 2+, and the MM is also a rerollable 2+. The 4++ in combat is huge as well especially since youre going to see alot of fast things in combat. I learned the hard way when I charged the swarmlord with my DP and helbrute and it just tanked every single attack.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 15:53:21


Post by: luke1705


 andysonic1 wrote:


Something to remember: you don't have to deploy the drop pods in reserve. You can now start them on the table. There's still no reason to but the option is there.


Oh contraire!

15" move plus warp time means you're booking it across the table! Sadly since the disembark is at the start of the movement phase, you can't get out and charge that turn :( but when you disembark the next turn, you're not restricted to stay 9" away from enemy models.

Not saying it's a GOOD idea to park it right in front of your enemy lmao but it's a funny mental picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
I am quite likeing Arkos the faithless.
He can "infiltrate". And is the only thing I've seen so far that gives a bonus to charge distance.
Only problem is he's alpha legion, and alphas have nothing right now. The only other chaos infiltrator is nurglings.

But, if alphas have nothing.. they can have everything. Alpha legion bezerkers may be unfluffy, but it is playable..

So infiltrate Arkos with a nurgling screen, then charge in with dreadclaw bezerkers and terminators with icons of wrath, a smattering of helldrakes and a warptime big beasty.
Could be fun.


Having played more than a few games with maxed out turn 1 assault Nids (who do this a lot better than CSM, I promise) be careful with putting all your eggs in that basket. A good army will have a screening unit or two to prevent you from getting to the good stuff, thus forcing you to weather a turn or two of shooting no matter when you first hit their lines


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 21:26:02


Post by: Wingeds


What do we think about DG losing access to Oblits, Terminators, bikes, and havoc?

I played a game vs DA yesterday with 4 squads of PM, 10 pox walkers, 2 of the elite dudes with bells, the Lord of Contagion, and 1 sorcerer.

I feel like DG have very little access to buff synergy compared to DA's Azrael giving everything rerolls and a 4++.

I might have to mix a regular CSM batallion with a DG patrol or something.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 21:34:16


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Wingeds wrote:
What do we think about DG losing access to Oblits, Terminators, bikes, and havoc?

I played a game vs DA yesterday with 4 squads of PM, 10 pox walkers, 2 of the elite dudes with bells, the Lord of Contagion, and 1 sorcerer.

I feel like DG have very little access to buff synergy compared to DA's Azrael giving everything rerolls and a 4++.

I might have to mix a regular CSM batallion with a DG patrol or something.


The question is do you actually lose access to those other units. The Death Guard Army entry only says the units on the list get the Death Guard keyword, not that other units can't be taken in the army. Remember, the main rulebook says a detachment is legal as long as all the units share a single keyword which you can still easily do with "Chaos". It's being discussed in YMDC if you want to make your voice heard anyways. I'm of the opinion that it's legal and you would just lose the benefit of auras that are keyword dependent but there is definitely someone very adamant against it, I just haven't found the rules justification for his argument yet.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729174.page


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 21:37:08


Post by: Darkseid


Captyn_Bob wrote:
One mortal wound per turn (max) isn't too bad for outputting 4d3 shots. And you heal one wound per turn as well, so no big problem
Shooting output can be improved with a lord or prince.
A warpsmith or hellwright could do battlefield repairs.


I completely forgot that regeneration works automatically now; the soulburner is looking better now. I'm going to give it a try.


What does everyone think of the Kytan? It use to be a clearly better choice than the LoS back in the 7th. The difference isn't as big anymore. Also the Kytan gatling gun seems to be a bit overcosted, when you compare it to the LoS gatling. Same prices but less shots for some reason.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 22:00:00


Post by: Kuklops


 luke1705 wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:


Something to remember: you don't have to deploy the drop pods in reserve. You can now start them on the table. There's still no reason to but the option is there.


Oh contraire!

15" move plus warp time means you're booking it across the table! Sadly since the disembark is at the start of the movement phase, you can't get out and charge that turn :( but when you disembark the next turn, you're not restricted to stay 9" away from enemy models.

Not saying it's a GOOD idea to park it right in front of your enemy lmao but it's a funny mental picture.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
I am quite likeing Arkos the faithless.
He can "infiltrate". And is the only thing I've seen so far that gives a bonus to charge distance.
Only problem is he's alpha legion, and alphas have nothing right now. The only other chaos infiltrator is nurglings.

But, if alphas have nothing.. they can have everything. Alpha legion bezerkers may be unfluffy, but it is playable..

So infiltrate Arkos with a nurgling screen, then charge in with dreadclaw bezerkers and terminators with icons of wrath, a smattering of helldrakes and a warptime big beasty.
Could be fun.


Having played more than a few games with maxed out turn 1 assault Nids (who do this a lot better than CSM, I promise) be careful with putting all your eggs in that basket. A good army will have a screening unit or two to prevent you from getting to the good stuff, thus forcing you to weather a turn or two of shooting no matter when you first hit their lines


How do you find trying to screen you units against Trygon deep striking then gaunts through the tunnel? I'm finding a good Nids list can put you under pressure from across the board and hit your flank/rear in the first few turns. Nids make us being 'okay/good' at melee totally defunct... Genestealers totally wreck face. I've had to redesign all my lists to make them way more shooty.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:

If I want a melee battering ram, do I take a decimator, or a helbrute?
Do I bother giving it two melee weapons, or a melee and a gun? (either one of them)


I think the Decimator with 2 x Souldburner Petard or Souldburner Petard & Siege Claw is cheap and good. A Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with Hellforged Deathclaw, Soulburner & Ectoplasma Cannon is good too at a meltabomb over 200 points. Supported with re-roll 1s and it should do some good damage and be decent in melee too.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 22:22:25


Post by: Asura Varuna


Is a Contemptor with 2 Deathclaws with soulburners worth considering or does it work out too pricey? If the Deathclaws are anything like dreadnought CC weapons then they'd be the sticking point, but 5 S14 Ap-3, 3D attacks and 2d3 mortal wounds hitting on 2s seems really strong.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 22:30:04


Post by: luke1705


Kuklops wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:


Having played more than a few games with maxed out turn 1 assault Nids (who do this a lot better than CSM, I promise) be careful with putting all your eggs in that basket. A good army will have a screening unit or two to prevent you from getting to the good stuff, thus forcing you to weather a turn or two of shooting no matter when you first hit their lines


How do you find trying to screen you units against Trygon deep striking then gaunts through the tunnel? I'm finding a good Nids list can put you under pressure from across the board and hit your flank/rear in the first few turns. Nids make us being 'okay/good' at melee totally defunct... Genestealers totally wreck face. I've had to redesign all my lists to make them way more shooty.


You definitely have to be able to do two things in 8th:

1) Counter a turn 1 assault
2) kill hordes that have access to an invuln/FNP

Genestealers are especially rough because they are some of the most points-efficient versions of both of those things. That's usually what I bring through the tunnel as a Nids player.

For CSM, I like using the poxwalkers as a screen. Blue horrors are also insanely points-efficient, but you'll likely have to spend some CP saving them from morale doom. The real question (imo) is where CSM's offense comes from. I'm thinking a combination of quad heavy bolters and Leviathan Dreads with Butcher Cannons. So much dakka, and a nearby lord lets all of them re-roll 1's to hit

My counter assault is probably going to have to be An'ggrath because
1) I am building my whole list around him
2) The leviathans have some really enticing melee options but their guns are just so much better


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/18 22:46:25


Post by: Wingeds


 lessthanjeff wrote:


The question is do you actually lose access to those other units. The Death Guard Army entry only says the units on the list get the Death Guard keyword, not that other units can't be taken in the army. Remember, the main rulebook says a detachment is legal as long as all the units share a single keyword which you can still easily do with "Chaos". It's being discussed in YMDC if you want to make your voice heard anyways. I'm of the opinion that it's legal and you would just lose the benefit of auras that are keyword dependent but there is definitely someone very adamant against it, I just haven't found the rules justification for his argument yet.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729174.page


Hmm, yea that does make sense. Thanks for the heads up!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 01:04:28


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Anyone tried Lord of Skulls yet? LOS is actually cheaper this edition, especially if you change the gun to Skull hurler. Really keen on making an army centred around LOS, because I love the way it looks, and it looks strong this edition!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 01:11:45


Post by: luke1705


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone tried Lord of Skulls yet? LOS is actually cheaper this edition, especially if you change the gun to Skull hurler. Really keen on making an army centred around LOS, because I love the way it looks, and it looks strong this edition!


If you like the way it looks, go for it! You have to build an army around it to address the things that it's bad at doing, based on what guns you decided to give it. But it's totally doable and with the removal of the D, he'll keep on trucking, getting angrier and angrier as he goes!

My personal preference is An'ggrath for the niche that the Lord of Skulls fills, and if I wasn't doing An'ggrath I would probably do the Greater Brass Scorpion, as I think he does more for less than the Lord of Skulls. But the differences aren't nearly as stark as they were last edition. I think all three of those guys will be great if your list makes them work and doesn't ask too much of them, but I don't think any of them are going to win you a GT any time soon. Would love to be wrong though and if An'ggrath proves me wrong, you guys will be the first to hear about it!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 01:30:54


Post by: Rydria


I can't wait for my index to arrive, I really want to see what the spartan can do, i plan to have it transport a few squads of power sword chosen.

Is it identical to the relic spartan loyalists get ?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 01:57:10


Post by: Debilitate


 Latro_ wrote:
I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!


Would be v appreciated to get the low down on the Fire Raptor (statline, rules, options etc).


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 02:00:45


Post by: Rydria


 Latro_ wrote:
I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!
My good sir would you be willing to PM me or tell me the stats on the spartan, and the spine chaos beast I'd really appreciate it.

Edit: I wish my copy had already arrived : (


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 02:41:21


Post by: luke1705


 Rydria wrote:
I can't wait for my index to arrive, I really want to see what the spartan can do, i plan to have it transport a few squads of power sword chosen.

Is it identical to the relic spartan loyalists get ?


TBH I wish I had known about the digital releases being on the same day (don't know why they wouldn't be - just didn't think about it) when I placed my order for the physical book. Now I have a digital copy and a book on the way

I like the digital versions a lot more anyhow. That way, my entire library is on my phone and I don't have to carry around all the indices. This will only compound when the codices come out for all of my armies. I don't know how people do the physical copies. I like having a copy in my hands, but not enough to wheel a cart around for all my armies.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 03:22:32


Post by: Nightlord1987


 luke1705 wrote:
 Rydria wrote:
I can't wait for my index to arrive, I really want to see what the spartan can do, i plan to have it transport a few squads of power sword chosen.

Is it identical to the relic spartan loyalists get ?


TBH I wish I had known about the digital releases being on the same day (don't know why they wouldn't be - just didn't think about it) when I placed my order for the physical book. Now I have a digital copy and a book on the way

I like the digital versions a lot more anyhow. That way, my entire library is on my phone and I don't have to carry around all the indices. This will only compound when the codices come out for all of my armies. I don't know how people do the physical copies. I like having a copy in my hands, but not enough to wheel a cart around for all my armies.


Well, to be fair, the physical book is also better for your opponent to read the rules and understand just what the hell you're doing. I cant stand playing games where my opponent is (usually proxying) some Forgeworld Unit, stares at his phone for 2 seconds, and then doesn't explain what it is theyre doing, and proceeds to unleash some hellish bombardment of special rules at me. Hours later, on my way home I'll search Google or something and find out they've been playing it completely wrong.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 05:45:10


Post by: Dayknight


 Latro_ wrote:
I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!


How much does the scorpion cost in relation to the LOS, renegade knight, and aggrath? Really hoping hes cheaper than 600 points but i suspect hes not :(


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 05:52:41


Post by: Kuklops


Debilitate wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:
I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!


Would be v appreciated to get the low down on the Fire Raptor (statline, rules, options etc).


I've PM you.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 05:59:31


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 Dayknight wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:
I'v got the FW book if anyone wants to know anything.

My fire raptor and fellblade came out of it ok i think, but oh lawd the pts increases!

like they actually put rules in now for plague toads! i have three!


How much does the scorpion cost in relation to the LOS, renegade knight, and aggrath? Really hoping hes cheaper than 600 points but i suspect hes not :(


All decked out (his wargear is all free), he costs 600 plus five naked cultists.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 06:09:02


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Lord of skulls also cost a similar amount of points. So, its really improved a lot!


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 06:41:12


Post by: Latro_


Fire Raptor:
s8, t7, w16, sv3+

standard flyer stuff 20"-45" move etc -1 to hit

Avenger is now 36" heavy 10, s6, ap-2, 2d
Reaper battery: 36" heavy 6, s7, ap-1, 1d
Quad HB: 36" heavy 12, s5, ap-1, 1d
hellstrike: 72" heavy 2, s8, ap-3, 3d
balefire, 36", heavy 2d3, s6, ap-1, d3d ignores cover

Quad HB is literally cheaper than the rapiers! and better! model comes in with HBs @ 362pts

------------------------

spartan:
s8 t8 w20 a4 sv2
twin hb, two quad LC

infernal hunger: mele - Suser ap-3 d1 after fighting in mele roll a d6 for everyone you killed on a 5+ get a wound back
quad lascannon is 4 lascannon shots
laser destryoer option instead s12 -4 d6 if you roll a 3-5 on dmg you do another d6 damage if you then roll a 6 you do ANOTHER d6 damage

bell of the beast: roll a dice for getting out on a 1, model is slain! but these count for the above wound healing above

can leave comabt and still fire + fire weapons even if someone is 1"

transport 25 inf

note it does *not* have the no -1 bs to moving with HW's

496pts with stock arms

shame this guy went up so much and the belly rule is a bit ugh

---------------------------------

spined

10" (M - ws - A reduce as damaged), s7, t6 , w12, a8, ld6, sv4
Tusked claw - x2s -3 d6d - can only make one attack with, gain a wound if you kill a model with it
Jagged claws: Suser, -1 2d
warp spines s4, 0, 1d - cant attack with this normally instead if charge or enemy piles in within 1" rolls a d6 for each unit within 1" on a 2+ that unit suffers one hit from this wep

5++ inv save
damonic ritual
can be given a daemon keyword - if so you gain the rule as per daemons book e.g. quicksilver reflexes

has daemon keyword

190pts all in

this guy got MUCH better 50pts more for a swathe of boosts


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 06:54:58


Post by: Debilitate


Thanks Latro_ and Kuklops. The quad heavy bolters look so good.

As far as the choice between missiles and Twin Lascannons... it doesn't seem like theres anything to take besides that. The Balefire missiles seem kinda eh, and lascannons are slightly better than the missiles.

It looks like a tough (16w!) flier with a crapload of shots, definitely well worth it at 362 points.

What does the Hover Jet rule do?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 06:57:37


Post by: Latro_


whoops missed you can swap the missiles for TWO sets of twin lascannons. This'd make it like 422pts thou

haover you vasically loose all the flyer rules and become move 20", kinda only ever wanna do this to avoid having to make the 90 deg turn

edit: also FR is a flyer NOT heavy support
beast is heavy support NOT elites
spartan is LoW NOT heavy support


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 07:46:09


Post by: Captyn_Bob


luke1705 727523 9437266 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
I am quite likeing Arkos the faithless.
He can "infiltrate". And is the only thing I've seen so far that gives a bonus to charge distance.
Only problem is he's alpha legion, and alphas have nothing right now. The only other chaos infiltrator is nurglings.

But, if alphas have nothing.. they can have everything. Alpha legion bezerkers may be unfluffy, but it is playable..

So infiltrate Arkos with a nurgling screen, then charge in with dreadclaw bezerkers and terminators with icons of wrath, a smattering of helldrakes and a warptime big beasty.
Could be fun.


Having played more than a few games with maxed out turn 1 assault Nids (who do this a lot better than CSM, I promise) be careful with putting all your eggs in that basket. A good army will have a screening unit or two to prevent you from getting to the good stuff, thus forcing you to weather a turn or two of shooting no matter when you first hit their lines



I guess one of the things of this edition is, if your turn 1 alpha strike from reserves looks like it isn't going to work, you can just bring them in turn 2 or 3. There's no randomness to it.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 12:14:42


Post by: labmouse42


Are there seperate rules for chaos knights in the FW Chaos index, or do they just use the renegade knight rules?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 12:27:13


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 labmouse42 wrote:
Are there seperate rules for chaos knights in the FW Chaos index, or do they just use the renegade knight rules?

Just the renegade knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we do have access to all the other variants now.
But no daemon knights


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:02:53


Post by: Rydria


 Latro_ wrote:
Fire Raptor:
s8, t7, w16, sv3+

standard flyer stuff 20"-45" move etc -1 to hit

Avenger is now 36" heavy 10, s6, ap-2, 2d
Reaper battery: 36" heavy 6, s7, ap-1, 1d
Quad HB: 36" heavy 12, s5, ap-1, 1d
hellstrike: 72" heavy 2, s8, ap-3, 3d
balefire, 36", heavy 2d3, s6, ap-1, d3d ignores cover

Quad HB is literally cheaper than the rapiers! and better! model comes in with HBs @ 362pts

------------------------

spartan:
s8 t8 w20 a4 sv2
twin hb, two quad LC

infernal hunger: mele - Suser ap-3 d1 after fighting in mele roll a d6 for everyone you killed on a 5+ get a wound back
quad lascannon is 4 lascannon shots
laser destryoer option instead s12 -4 d6 if you roll a 3-5 on dmg you do another d6 damage if you then roll a 6 you do ANOTHER d6 damage

bell of the beast: roll a dice for getting out on a 1, model is slain! but these count for the above wound healing above

can leave comabt and still fire + fire weapons even if someone is 1"

transport 25 inf

note it does *not* have the no -1 bs to moving with HW's

496pts with stock arms

shame this guy went up so much and the belly rule is a bit ugh

---------------------------------

spined

10" (M - ws - A reduce as damaged), s7, t6 , w12, a8, ld6, sv4
Tusked claw - x2s -3 d6d - can only make one attack with, gain a wound if you kill a model with it
Jagged claws: Suser, -1 2d
warp spines s4, 0, 1d - cant attack with this normally instead if charge or enemy piles in within 1" rolls a d6 for each unit within 1" on a 2+ that unit suffers one hit from this wep

5++ inv save
damonic ritual
can be given a daemon keyword - if so you gain the rule as per daemons book e.g. quicksilver reflexes

has daemon keyword

190pts all in

this guy got MUCH better 50pts more for a swathe of boosts
Thanks for the reply i really appreciate it. I really don't like that belly of the beast rule it defeats the entire purpose of a spartan which is to deliver units into battle safely there is a reason no one possessed there vehicles last edition. The spined chaos beast looks awesome though I can't wait to use the two i have on the table top.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:07:15


Post by: Demantiae


How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?

I'm weighing up the benefits of taking a Deredeo to buff a bunch of cultists (playing AL so looking at multiple squads of cultists). Obviously it brings decent firepower to the table (the Butcher Cannon Array is a monster of a weapon) but is a mobile 5++ aura really worth it? Not having to keep cultists in cover sounds good but is it really going to make a difference?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:19:31


Post by: lessthanjeff


I'm annoyed with a couple things in the forgeworld book. They lost some units like the deimos vindicator with laser destroyer and other units lost options/weapons.

To the earlier discussion of genestealers, I just faced a good number of them. I interrupted their attacks whenever I could, shot them with lots of middling guns to get them below 10 to reduce their number of attacks quickly, and kept counter charge units like khorne berserkers or bloodletters near my lines. Was able to wipe them out with them only doing a couple wounds of damage to me.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:27:16


Post by: Latro_


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm annoyed with a couple things in the forgeworld book. They lost some units like the deimos vindicator with laser destroyer and other units lost options/weapons.


they also lost and entire army list! bad feelings for Renegade players


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:34:13


Post by: techsoldaten


 Latro_ wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm annoyed with a couple things in the forgeworld book. They lost some units like the deimos vindicator with laser destroyer and other units lost options/weapons.


they also lost and entire army list! bad feelings for Renegade players


It's in the FW index for IG. Shame you have to buy the whole book just for that. Looks like they cut down on HQ options, but everything else is still there.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:35:09


Post by: Latro_


woooT!

another chaos book i need to buy! noooo


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:37:07


Post by: techsoldaten


 Rydria wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:


spartan:
...
belly of the beast: roll a dice for getting out on a 1, model is slain! but these count for the above wound healing above

Thanks for the reply i really appreciate it. I really don't like that belly of the beast rule it defeats the entire purpose of a spartan which is to deliver units into battle safely there is a reason no one possessed there vehicles last edition. The spined chaos beast looks awesome though I can't wait to use the two i have on the table top.

Yes, thank you for posting. I was really curious about this as well.

With regards to Belly of the Beast:

1) do you roll for each model, or for all occupants?

2) does the occupant get a save, or is it a mortal wound?

3) how do you decide who the wound goes on? Do you get to pick, or is it random?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 13:41:17


Post by: Rydria


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Rydria wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:


spartan:
...
belly of the beast: roll a dice for getting out on a 1, model is slain! but these count for the above wound healing above

Thanks for the reply i really appreciate it. I really don't like that belly of the beast rule it defeats the entire purpose of a spartan which is to deliver units into battle safely there is a reason no one possessed there vehicles last edition. The spined chaos beast looks awesome though I can't wait to use the two i have on the table top.

Yes, thank you for posting. I was really curious about this as well.

With regards to Belly of the Beast:

1) do you roll for each model, or for all occupants?

2) does the occupant get a save, or is it a mortal wound?

3) how do you decide who the wound goes on? Do you get to pick, or is it random?
Not even a wound, the model is outright slain regardless of who or what the model was getting out so Abbadon could get out of his prized spartan with his elite bodyguard of bringers of despair, only for them to notice he tripped and was eaten by his own transport tank.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 15:08:27


Post by: Demantiae


Belly of the Beast isn't that bad. On any turn in which any number of units disembark roll 1d6. If you roll a 1 then a single model is slain outright (controlling players choice) from any of the disembarking units. If you disembark 4 units then only 1 model max can be eaten. If you disembark Abbadon alone and you roll that 1 well, then you'll lose Abbadon. So you just don't disembark characters alone, or you burn a CP to re-roll if you have to. But in all likelihood you won't roll that 1 so it won't matter.

The FW indexes do look a bit rushed tbh with options missing and discrepancies between FW and GW indexes. Gonna need large FAQ's and errata from FW soon.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 15:08:31


Post by: andysonic1


Demantiae wrote:
How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?
You disembark at the start of your turn, this is impossible with the Min move distance while zooming. You must go into hover and then disembark.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 15:12:58


Post by: Loopstah


 andysonic1 wrote:
Demantiae wrote:
How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?
You disembark at the start of your turn, this is impossible with the Min move distance while zooming. You must go into hover and then disembark.


What stops you disembarking before moving the flyer?


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 15:19:42


Post by: Latro_


Loopstah wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
Demantiae wrote:
How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?
You disembark at the start of your turn, this is impossible with the Min move distance while zooming. You must go into hover and then disembark.


What stops you disembarking before moving the flyer?


actually reading it, nothing.
You disembark specifically before the transport moves.


8th ed CHAOS tactica @ 2017/06/19 15:25:56


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 andysonic1 wrote:
Demantiae wrote:
How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?
You disembark at the start of your turn, this is impossible with the Min move distance while zooming. You must go into hover and then disembark.


Where is the rule that a flyer needs to be in hover to allow its passengers to disembark? I had assumed it to be the case, but I can't find the rule. Maybe I'm just not following why this is impossible with the min distance move as you say.