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All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/04 07:06:52


Post by: gummyofallbears


Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/04 16:05:17


Post by: Captyn_Bob


It's hard to imagine sorcerers being as useful as before. Each power cast only once.. I guess heavy use of smite is the key.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/05 16:26:38


Post by: gummyofallbears


Thoughts on the changeling in a mixed tzeentch and mortals army? -1 to hit is very powerful.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 01:08:32


Post by: jcd386


I think Scarabs and Magnus are really good. Rubrics seem pretty Solid too. I'm not too sure about Tzaangors, but they are cheap so they might be what the army needs / might be worth a try.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 01:11:03


Post by: Lou_Cypher


Magnus + Warptime could be really potent. Move 30 " or so, smite a target, charge it with Str 16 3 damage attacks.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 11:42:37


Post by: Pocket121


At the moment im stuck for anti-armour/anti high toughness killing, as is usual with Thousand Sons and the loss of Heretech.

I'm not sure if i should run a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend or instead run 2 Helbrutes.

One Helbrute as a ranged turret with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons and one as a melee Helbrute with fists or fist and power scourge.

The difference is around 55~ points between the 2 choices but they both have benefits and disadvantages.

The Helbrutes dont lose anything the more wounds they take and stay strong on one wound or 8 wounds.
The Fiends lose effectiveness the more damage they take and are less accruate but have the benefits of regaining wounds and an invun.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 12:31:13


Post by: Vashones


Pocket121 wrote:
At the moment im stuck for anti-armour/anti high toughness killing, as is usual with Thousand Sons and the loss of Heretech.

I'm not sure if i should run a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend or instead run 2 Helbrutes.

One Helbrute as a ranged turret with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons and one as a melee Helbrute with fists or fist and power scourge.

The difference is around 55~ points between the 2 choices but they both have benefits and disadvantages.

The Helbrutes dont lose anything the more wounds they take and stay strong on one wound or 8 wounds.
The Fiends loose effectiveness the more damage they take and are less accruate but have the benefits of regaining wounds and an invun.


I've been thinking along the same lines. I like the idea of two Maulerfiends to run alongside Magnus who would give them +1 to Invul and to hit. Its about 800 for the three of them, but its a big ball of death that you can't ignore.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 15:47:52


Post by: Skerr


I am considering summoning screamers for anti tank if I can, have not looked at the scans in great detail.

Also, yes, until we know if 1k sons gets expanded spells our current role is to smite and deny our butts off.

With the loss of decurion style bonus, shenanigans and other special rules the flavor of our army being talented and gifted psychically comes across as sheer volume of sorcerers available rather than expanded spells, mitigation for perils etc... which I am ok with as I am happy about the overall army buffs.

We have a reason to take rubrics, and SOTs will be great with teleportation.

Also I plan on using Icons of flame on all my rubrics and termies in the beginning to see if these add up by turn 3 or 4.

Tzangoors are a great option to take for us know.

A bit bummed that exalted sorcerers lose their buff to Invlun saves on themselves if they take a disc and lost the infantry key word though perhaps this is an oversight.

I got Helbrutes and Heldrakes to bring along also.





All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 18:53:51


Post by: Vashones


I'm a fan of the Dinobots (Maulerfiends and Helldrakes) actually, at least in theory. Just watched the Twitch stream for Warhammer TV with the Thousand Sons vs. Dark Angels and the Helldrake did great work just harassing units. It can keep up with a Warpspeed Magnus and it can pick on weaker vehicles plus it gets buffs from Magnus.

Most importantly, I think the Demon Engines painted in Thousand sons blue with gold look awesome.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 21:56:06


Post by: gummyofallbears


How do you guys think that rubric marines should be equipped? Warpflamers or bolters? What about soul reaper cannons? Rhino?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 22:13:48


Post by: demontalons


I think it depends on how you're planning to transport them. If you're putting them in 10 man squads in rhinos then I wouldn't go for more than 3 warpflamers in a squad. That's enough to deter small cc units and put some hurt on other stuff if you get close.

IF we can take a dreadclaw though I plan on taking 8 warpflamers and a flame pistol with a sorcerer with warptime. Drop them in warptime them to roast something and give your opponent something to worry about while the rest of the army closes in.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/06 22:16:43


Post by: Vashones


 gummyofallbears wrote:
How do you guys think that rubric marines should be equipped? Warpflamers or bolters? What about soul reaper cannons? Rhino?


They are slow, so my plan is to have them in Rhinos. As for load out, I am considering a few options. I'm not sure about mixing weapons yet even though New Hammer has split fire. I'm thinking two different squad layouts. One is a smaller squad with all Warp Flamers while the other is a 10 man unit with all boltguns and a soulreaper cannon. I want to run a lot of rubrics, so I'll mix and match the numbers but that is the plan right now.

Strength 5 on the Soulreaper is a nice value as you can take on the toughest units in the game in a pinch and still wound on 5s. It's incredibly expensive points wise to have 10 rubrics with the cannon, but I think I need to run one a few times at least. Having an Exalted Sorcerer on a Disc flying next to the Rhino backing it up will be nice as well.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/07 02:58:59


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 gummyofallbears wrote:
Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?


Your not going to be able to run a pure TS army right now. At least not one that looks like a TS army anyways.

Smite is going to do unnoticible amounts of damage, Prescience only gives a +1 to hit now instead of the reroll so its not as good, Time Warp allows you to send 1 unit too far forward or 1 unit to run away leaving the Sorcerer there to die. And the other damaging spell is a worse version of smite.

We lack the sheer number of bullets to kill hordes and the strength to kill tanks. DP is the only way to augment shooting on more then 1 unit, but cost an arm and a leg.

The best situation I could see for an army that looks like...1 big blob in the middle of Rubrics/SOT then Exalted Sorcs or ahriman near them to give prescience. DP or 2 to get the 2+ rerollable. Then spend the rest of your points on Tzzangors in Rhinos.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/07 15:05:11


Post by: Skerr


I have been reading bat reps of 1000 sons players who have been playing 8th.

Rubrics it seems have a lot of versatility and uses now. I think it really depends upon the rest of the list though I am thinking mixed weapons myself. Squad of 10 or 12 with Soul Reaper and a couple flamers for split fire, overwatch and over all versatility. Though other units of varying size and weapon load outs, who you are fighting etc will have a direct effect.

I hear smiting is doing some good work. I expect a handful of icons will help to add up MW and it may seem nonexistent though I hear is adding up over time from people who have had multiple games so we shall see. Also is there any rules that says Smite cannot be cast in cc? I do not see one.

Dark Hereticus though generic serves us just fine for now, inho until possible new lore comes out, artifacts etc... Targetable smite, move shenanigans and divination buff is right up our alley, if not a not boring as it is not unique.

As time goes on I thing we will see lots of diverse lists that are effective for 1k sons. My one opinion though and my divination is not great.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/20-x-chaos-space-marines-x/

Check out this thread to see reports from 1k sons players sharing their recent experiences also. 1st Bat rep starts about page 27 or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not see who won First Blood though between DA and 1k sons.

Is there a write up for this that anyone knows of?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 03:30:40


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Skerr wrote:
I have been reading bat reps of 1000 sons players who have been playing 8th.

Rubrics it seems have a lot of versatility and uses now. I think it really depends upon the rest of the list though I am thinking mixed weapons myself. Squad of 10 or 12 with Soul Reaper and a couple flamers for split fire, overwatch and over all versatility. Though other units of varying size and weapon load outs, who you are fighting etc will have a direct effect.

I hear smiting is doing some good work. I expect a handful of icons will help to add up MW and it may seem nonexistent though I hear is adding up over time from people who have had multiple games so we shall see. Also is there any rules that says Smite cannot be cast in cc? I do not see one.

Dark Hereticus though generic serves us just fine for now, inho until possible new lore comes out, artifacts etc... Targetable smite, move shenanigans and divination buff is right up our alley, if not a not boring as it is not unique.

As time goes on I thing we will see lots of diverse lists that are effective for 1k sons. My one opinion though and my divination is not great.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/20-x-chaos-space-marines-x/

Check out this thread to see reports from 1k sons players sharing their recent experiences also. 1st Bat rep starts about page 27 or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not see who won First Blood though between DA and 1k sons.

Is there a write up for this that anyone knows of?


1 bat rep from from 1 guy that only talks about how he did against 1 elite army is not enough. He was also apparently playing against people that had no clue what the rules were. Multiple overwatchs? Thats something that most players would know not to mention never charge a unit with flamers. Which was a thing that they did. Dosent talk about then end result of the game at all. Just says 4 AS and the big guys add up yeah to 10 whats your point? 10 wounds from 500 points of models? Thats supposed to impress me? Sorry, unless your opponet sucks those are going to go on things your enemy want them to which means your 500 points will be killing 50-70 points of models a turn. Shooting phase comes after psychic phase so your not landing any smite on anything good until turn 3 at least. Then i finally see his list 1 unit of rubrics 3 units of SOT and a feth ton of Daemons. Well, of TS are super amazing awesome why did he cut his forces down to 1 unit of rubrics?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 04:03:14


Post by: Skerr


Seems i read more than that though perhaps i am wrong. It seems a resource of experience which i am sure we will see more of here and there as days go by. If you have experiences please share them. If not read the experiences of others. Continue to comment what you like and how you like though I find a lot of positive discussion there if folks are into that.

I have no real interest in weather you are impressed or not. That seems odd you would ask me and your tone seems unnecessarily antagonistic. If I did something to offend you I apologize though not sure what it would be. If I am off the mark I will move on and continue posting om this topic.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 07:39:11


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Skerr wrote:
Seems i read more than that though perhaps i am wrong. It seems a resource of experience which i am sure we will see more of here and there as days go by. If you have experiences please share them. If not read the experiences of others. Continue to comment what you like and how you like though I find a lot of positive discussion there if folks are into that.

I have no real interest in weather you are impressed or not. That seems odd you would ask me and your tone seems unnecessarily antagonistic. If I did something to offend you I apologize though not sure what it would be. If I am off the mark I will move on and continue posting on this topic.


I read more then that as well, it's what im not reading that worries me. If you want a resourse for experiance watch videos dont get one subjectuve take on a game. Do not read to much into my tone as I have none when I am writing, nor when I speak usually.

When I ask "should I be impressed?" its a retorcial question should 500 points of models be putting out 10 wounds per turn. Im trying to get you to think, thats it. Personally 10 wounds on things that my enemy chooses is not a good deal to me. If I had a choise it would be on Tzzangors or Cultists and you can bet as people figure out that bringing at least some chaff models is going to be necessary the performance will decrease.

If you really want to use a pure Thousand Sons army avoid Rubrics, use Tzzangors to fill troops choices. Make sure you get at least 6 CP and save them for perils rolls. HQ choices take Ahriman on a disk and 2 DP with Malefic Talons.

3 Tzzangors, 2 SOT, Ahriman, and 2 DP comes to ~1150

You have Chaff if you need it. Everything is good in CC. The DP dont pay extra for spell castings they cant use and augment any unit that gets prescience to a 95% hit ratio. In a pinch the DPs can take out a T8 unit with 12 wounds and a 3+ save in 1 turn. If they dont do it Ahriman can finish it off. Each SOT will put out 10 round at 24 inchs and 20 at 12 inchs while retaining the ability to take advantage of cover fairly easily.

I couldn't tell you the best anti tank options right now, after this weekend, i should have a better idea.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 12:32:15


Post by: Skerr


Thanks for explaining, I have always enjoyed getting insight from your posts on previous 1k sons threads. You have a lot of good things to say in regards to efficiently and use of the army and sometimes I think you come off in a negative way. Though you are right we sometimes project emotions that are not there when we read others comments.

Admittedly I read your question as arrogant not rhetorical and apologize for that. The link was for everyone and I think the 1 to 2 guys who have had a handful of games might be something others here would be interested in. Though I enjoy reading them and asking questions I may not have agreed with all their tactics and decisions though it is still exciting to me to see. What we don't see is great as well as I also have asked them "why not Tzaangors?". Yhey do not seem to be getting a lot of play in those games and I think they are a great unit. The passionate K sons players on b&c are just excited the Rubrics are better and better priced and are testing them out in various ways.
I would have like to see the warherd bonus of run and charge incorporated though I am happy with the overall buff of the goat bird men.

I also need to brush up on detachments, cps etc... and look forward to having the books.

I saw a battle report last night on yt, 1k sons vs imperium 8th ed.
Lesson from that, don't move Magnus out in the middle of the battle field like it's 7th edition and leave your thinly deployed army behind you thinking you will reck face like old times. The imperium was some assassin's, Diego?, a super heavy and a vanguard detachment with 3 of those chicken walker things and it went bad with Maggie being surrounded and taking like 14 wounds round 1. He died shortly after that and I skimmed through the rest to see 1k sons concede. Really need to have some support for Maggie and make good use of that Primarch of the 1000 sons ability.


Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 22:04:59


Post by: Vashones


Saying that Rubrics or Scarab Terminators should not be taken is basically saying don't play Thousand Sons to me. Demon Princes, Ahriman, and Tzangors do not make for an interesting list. So, rather than shutting down conversation by saying that these units should not be taken, perhaps we can talk about how they can be most effective? None of us have enough experience to say one way or the other that something should be taken out of a list.

Personally, I'm not interested in taking units that do not fit within the army list options for Thousand Sons. I play with very competitive players and I plan on trying out all the options available to see which is the most effective, what is the most fun and what looks the coolest to me. Feel free to toss out Rubrics and Magnus if you like, that's not what I plan on doing.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/08 23:29:39


Post by: Skerr


I have yet to play my first game though I am thinking 2 ten man rubs in rhino, 2 5 man SOTS, some goats to screen with a predator, some spawn and maybe Heldrake as a base.

HQs I am on the fence though I do plan on buying Magnus now as I like the synergy he has w ksons now. I am still unsure if HQs on disc lose the benefit of their Aura buff if their keyword changes to deamon. Consensus seems to be that auras buff the character offering it ( have not read rules yet.)

I still like soul reapers and 1 or 2 flamers. I like the Idea of teleoporting SOTs being warp timed and charging. I love that power sword ls got ap -3, am more likely to charge and perhaps take a heavy flamer. Missiles seems a given on the SOTS.

Also gonna rock Icons for fun. I don't play in an overly competitive group, just bros I grew up playing dnd with and though we like to win we also like to field models we think are cool so our lists may not be competitive compared to others. My group is more of a beer and pretzel crowd.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 04:13:53


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 gummyofallbears wrote:
Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?


SOT are good worth their points by far espically since they can start eating thier points back turn 1.

Rubrics are too expensive with flamers which is the only way the really go up in effectiveness. Of you want to bring them min squads with 2-3 flamers each double up on Rhinos dump them out near the enemy lines and wreak some havoc before they die.

You need to open up to Tzzangors. Mortal Wounds are a thing now, and they dont care how durable you are.

Magnus needs a screen of troops to protectec him from plasma and melta shots other wise he will die in the first couple turns. Move him out smite, gaze, warp time, move him back behind the line, dont leave him out there. The exception is when youe enemy is charging up a Land Raider or something else that is super expensive. Hes a Glass Cannon he can kill a Land Raider in 1 turn no problem. Always reroll the lower of the two numbers on his smite it gives you like a 66% chance for 2d6 mortal wounds. Bubble wrap him. Bubble wrap him. Bubble wrap him. Dont care what you use but dont let DS plasma or melta kill him. His big flaw us that you cant keep long range stuff from hurting him. 3 Vanquisher Cannons will make short work of him. Stuff like that needs to be a priority.

TL;DR Magnus is a glass cannon. Build the army around keepimg him alive and you might be able to win.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 07:59:42


Post by: YoungSolomon


I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 09:05:28


Post by: Arachnofiend


Would you guys recommend the magma cutters or lasher tendrils for the Maulerfiend? The cutters have a really nice stat line but I worry they might be hard to use in practice.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 10:22:00


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Arachnofiend wrote:
Would you guys recommend the magma cutters or lasher tendrils for the Maulerfiend? The cutters have a really nice stat line but I worry they might be hard to use in practice.


Depends on what you want to do with the Maulerfiend, going after vehicles take the cutters, Infantry the problem Lasher Tendrils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 13:47:04


Post by: Skerr


i agree that the flamer are expensive though I also think being better than your average flamer I am inclined to test drive a couple in each unit. I do like the idea of a small group of flamer rubes joy riding in a rhino. Brings back memories of flamer chosen joy riding.

What is really interesting is deepening upon the mission foot slogging might be a sound tactic or might night.

I am looking at a mobile force applying pressure from different areas at once in perhaps a threat overwhelm. Not sure if that will work. Not if I would kit any Sorcerers on disc to keep up, probably with this force though I still wonder if the ES losing the infantry keyword means he loses his buff. I read somewhere it was confirmed in rules that characters benefit form their own buff though if we lose the infantry keyword we need clarity on. Maggie would go nice to offer his buff and keep up with rhinos and any support heavies, probably Preds and or Helbrutes in my case as i dont own any fiends and they would be low on my want list.

I am inclined to make my list mostly mobile with Rhinos, teleporting SOTs.

Tzangoor rhinos might be good as well, plus I like to custom make tank topper. I made a bunch of turrents using the snap fit chosen from DV and wanted to do the same with Tzangoor Torsos maybe waiving a Tzeentch banner.

However I like a foot slogging force as well, with all is dust, good terrain placement, utilizing character buffs and long range support it could work depending upon your opponent, the mission etc...

Frontline Gaming did a QaA on their experience play testing and said the game becomes really fun with well placed terrain and some that blocks LOS, though that was their experiences. Of course that has always been my experience in any edition, lol. Though that tells me that terrain is very important in this edition.

Tzangors get the 1 to advance or charge with an instrument, may not seem like a lot but every bit helps. I like the Relic hunters, makes me want to bum rush a mob of goat birds into characters looking for "shiny preciouses"


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 15:30:33


Post by: gummyofallbears


My current list 2k list, I will probably get to play with it sunday.

Ahriman on a disk

Sorcerer on a disk

Lord of Change with a rod of change

Demon prince with 2 malefic talons and wings

rubric squad with flamers in a rhino x2

2x maulerfiends with lasher tendrils

Helldrake with a baleflamer.

Its basically all that I own for Ksons/chaos, but hopefully its fast and fun, the maulerfiends and helldrake is thrown into the opponents face, the maulerfiends kill anything and the helldrake snipes a character and draws fire.

It doesn't seem there is a real reason not to take Ahriman, he is only 30 points more than a regular sorcerer on a disk, and he can cast an extra power, adds one to his rolls for casting and denying, and his staff is better








All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 15:37:36


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Not sure what the point is of the other sorcerer?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 22:36:19


Post by: YoungSolomon


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/09 22:37:05


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Its everything he owns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.


That should do alright just make sure your target priority is on the up and up. Big Guns and multi damage kill Rubrics fast(er then small arms) so try to take them out first. what are you bringing on the Forgefiends?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/10 01:12:26


Post by: YoungSolomon


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Its everything he owns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.


That should do alright just make sure your target priority is on the up and up. Big Guns and multi damage kill Rubrics fast(er then small arms) so try to take them out first. what are you bringing on the Forgefiends?


Most likely just Hades autocannons for the high rate of fire, maybe with the mouth plasma cannon depending on points. Blast weapons seem less reliable this edition but a forgefiend with three cannons could potentially cause some serious damage.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 05:39:35


Post by: Tsol


IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 05:57:12


Post by: MinscS2


 Tsol wrote:


Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Or...Tzaangors, since it's Thousand Sons after all.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 06:47:48


Post by: Lou_Cypher


Summoned Brimstone Horrors on standby to block off charges could be useful for Thousand Sons.

Cheap to use too.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 13:33:44


Post by: Skerr


 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


People have been posting more and more on the viability of Rubrics and Tzaangors. Good stuff! Thank you for posting!


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 18:23:55


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Here is the problem, you DON'T want chaff units with Rubrics. They have a 2+ save vs against most small arms fire. Putting Tzzangors on the table gives your opponent something to shoot at that doesn't have a 2+ save which makes their army more effective even if they only have 2 or 3 units with D1 weapons. The re-roll has almost a nil effect, 6% increase in saves. On top of that Tzzangors have a LD of 7 and no way to mitigate that number so if they lose 7, which is not difficult to do, if you roll a 3 or more on morale you lose an entire 10 man squad. Rubrics seem like they are super durable except an AP -2 multi damage weapon will tear through them all the same. People are going to force that 5+ save on your 20 point models. If you want the Soul Reaper Cannon you have to bring 10 man squads at least, with 8 leadership that means losing 7 in 1 turn means a 4+ and the squad is gone, losing 8 means a 3+ on morale loses the squad. Now you can say well how fast will they die to heavy weapons fire, or Plasma and things of that nature? Well a single squad of MEQ with 3 plasma Rifles will do about 2 wound in rapid fire range, even with re-rolling 1s to save. This does not even take into account mortal wounds which get no save and are hyper effective against Rubrics.

Edit: as a side note this is a thread for Thousand Sons tactics. Fabius, Abbadon, and Chaos Lords cannot be taken in a Thousand Sons army. For Thousand Sons the only way to get rerolls to hit rolls of 1 is to bring Magnus or a Daemon Prince.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/12 23:11:32


Post by: Yoyoyo


None of that means Rubrics are bad troops, though.

Tzaangors will die if targeted but that's their job.

Hopefully the days of victory through list building are gone, like chaff or 2+ skew lists.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 02:08:48


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Yoyoyo wrote:
None of that means Rubrics are bad troops, though.

Tzaangors will die if targeted but that's their job.

Hopefully the days of victory through list building are gone, like chaff or 2+ skew lists.


Yes it does. Troops need to be good at something. Rubrics are good at nothing. They have a 45 Psyker that isn't a Psyker and pays extra for a CC weapon that that he can't kill anything with because he lacks the attacks to hit anything reliably. 20 point models that have guns that would be good if you shot a few more bullets or hit a bit more often, but we lack the model count to shoot enough bullets to do any noticible damage. As a reference it takes 1200 points of Rubrics in rapid fire range to kill 260 points of SM in the open with inferno bolters. The only way to make them better at range is to quadruple thier attacks AND increase the str of the weapon by 1, or add an attack and make them auto hit, and by doing those things you either almost double or more then double the cost of the models.

These are supposed to be elite troops, but they like regular SM at a vastly increased price unless your talking about CC in which case the SM are better.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 04:34:37


Post by: Yoyoyo


Inferno Bolters have a good profile vs MEQ. Rubrics aren't a glass cannon and they have a psyker with a force weapon, of course they will cost more. If you want a unit that shoots a lot with no other remarkable qualities (and taxes), play Tau already.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 06:38:24


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Yoyoyo wrote:
Inferno Bolters have a good profile vs MEQ. Rubrics aren't a glass cannon and they have a psyker with a force weapon, of course they will cost more. If you want a unit that shoots a lot with no other remarkable qualities (and taxes), play Tau already.


Yes, but this is my point they are trying to have the unit do everything. Which makes it good at nothing. They need to pick 2 or 3 things and have it be good at those things. Right now Rubrics are difficult to kill and have no other redeeming qualities.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 11:49:20


Post by: Yoyoyo


That's a quality of all MEQ troops, that gripe has been said a million times about Tac Marines.

Inferno Bolters won't make them play like Fire Warriors.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 12:05:20


Post by: Tsol


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Here is the problem, you DON'T want chaff units with Rubrics. They have a 2+ save vs against most small arms fire. Putting Tzzangors on the table gives your opponent something to shoot at that doesn't have a 2+ save which makes their army more effective even if they only have 2 or 3 units with D1 weapons. The re-roll has almost a nil effect, 6% increase in saves. On top of that Tzzangors have a LD of 7 and no way to mitigate that number so if they lose 7, which is not difficult to do, if you roll a 3 or more on morale you lose an entire 10 man squad. Rubrics seem like they are super durable except an AP -2 multi damage weapon will tear through them all the same. People are going to force that 5+ save on your 20 point models. If you want the Soul Reaper Cannon you have to bring 10 man squads at least, with 8 leadership that means losing 7 in 1 turn means a 4+ and the squad is gone, losing 8 means a 3+ on morale loses the squad. Now you can say well how fast will they die to heavy weapons fire, or Plasma and things of that nature? Well a single squad of MEQ with 3 plasma Rifles will do about 2 wound in rapid fire range, even with re-rolling 1s to save. This does not even take into account mortal wounds which get no save and are hyper effective against Rubrics.

Edit: as a side note this is a thread for Thousand Sons tactics. Fabius, Abbadon, and Chaos Lords cannot be taken in a Thousand Sons army. For Thousand Sons the only way to get rerolls to hit rolls of 1 is to bring Magnus or a Daemon Prince.


Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.

Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.

10 man squads with the soulureaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.

As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and hhis stupid face smirks as he rerolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.

Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.

Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or whathave you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.

Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS

Again, I haven't played enough to make any grand claims or this is best or this is worst, just I have fought a lot of Rubric marines, and I can defiantly say, they are not crap.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 17:46:37


Post by: demontalons


They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 17:57:42


Post by: Yoyoyo


Rubrics and Scarab Occult do a lot of things well, but they don't have the volume of firepower to mulch hordes. They also don't have a lot of high-strength multiwound attacks to deal with big monsters and vehicles.

I think LR/Pred and Dreadnoughts are a decent option for the latter. Tzaangors with Pistols/Chainswords are probably the best anti-horde without leaning on allies.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 18:31:42


Post by: demontalons


If you want straight Tsons then tzaangors are good anti horde. but you're going to need havocs to thin true horde armies as we are too close ranged to thin them out properly. I run 2 havoc squads with hvy bolter and missile launchers. I'm also toying with the idea of running fallen with combi bolters alongside my rubrics.

But for pure tsons you'll want dreads and demon princes close to your rubrics and chaff in front to absorb nastiness. Like a first turn swarmlord charge or 20 genestealers.

Against really mobile armies though with lots of firepower like dark eldar you're going to need allies to really deal with them as I don't think vehicles will last long enough to put a dent in them


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 22:00:20


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


So, let me be clear I am not trying to be mean in this post, but you said some things that made it obvious that you are lacking in the knowledge department when it comes to this Army and the game in general.

 Tsol wrote:
Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.


Okay, here is your logic. If you have units that can die from small arms fire and units that can't die from small arms fire your better off then if you have ONLY units which don't die from small arms fire. So, even from a basic logic perspective there is a problem. This is not even looking at what Tzzangors are. Melee unit with pistols as an "upgrade" which make them much worse in CC. They have a LD of 7 and come in units of 10 minimum, they have no way to mitigate their leadership at all. This means if you kill 7 on a 3+ the rest of the squad runs off, the only way to get them to where they are supposed to be is to buy a Rhino, making them 14 PPM. 14 PPM for a "chaff" unit is ridiculous, a chaff unit that will only draw fire that we don't need them to draw. It takes 40 bolter shots to kill 8 Tzzangors, the same number of shots will kill 2 Rubrics, 40 points of Rubrics or 70 points of Tzzangors, those are your options.

 Tsol wrote:
Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.


Overcharged plasma is multi-damage(no All is Dust benefit) they are AP -3 which bumps your save up to 5+ lets assume you have that re-roll 1s for invul saves. Overcharged Plasma has S8 so they wound on 2s, with no support they kill 3 Rubrics (60 points min) and lose 1 guy, with rerolling 1s (which will probably always be the case) you kill 4 and lose 1 guy every 2 rounds of doing that.

 Tsol wrote:
10 man squads with the soul reaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.


I am unimpressed by the fact that my Elite unit of Rubric Marines are susceptible to Morale. Bringing 10 guys makes them more Susceptible, losing 8 guys in a turn means even a 1 on a morale test and I'm losing a 40 point model at least, that's not including if the army I'm fighting has anything that reduces the LD of an enemy unit.

 Tsol wrote:
As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and his stupid face smirks as he re-rolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.


That's great that it helps your friend sometimes, but exceptional circumstances cannot be used to judge the generic impact. Do the math the saves for from a 33% occurrence rate to a 39% occurrence rate, the difference is literally nil. The number is so low its almost embarrassing i would rather they made the unit 20 points cheaper and take the aura off.

 Tsol wrote:
Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.


Psykers are not the only way to get mortal wounds,there not even the best way to get mortal wounds since the main source is non-targetable. Snipers and units that cause mortal wounds that can actually target units rather then hit the closest are much better. Not to mention you should be bring Venomthropes for the -1 to hit.

 Tsol wrote:
Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or what have you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.


Yes they can be deadly if your opponent does not know what there doing. Stand more then 8" away and the flamers aren't allowed to shoot. Warp Flamers will become the most expensive "upgrade" that no one bring because it is borderline useless.

 Tsol wrote:
Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS


let me put a quote here from the book directly, from under the "Forces of the Thousand Sons" entry in the Chaos Index "The Heretic Astarties datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons Legion. Those that have the <Legion> keyword on thier datasheet can replace it in all instances with Thousand Sons. If a heretic astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the Thousand Sons Faction keyword". Chaos Lord is not on that list, and I will post the whole thing if you want. You CANNOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, the best you can do is put Rubrics in a regular CSM army as Elites, but then its not a Thousand Sons army then is it, its just a regular CSM army with Rubrics in it. The Chaos Lord does not give his bonus to "Heretic Astartes" he gives his bonus to units with the same "<Legion>" keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote:
They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge


Why is your opponent going to let you cast Smite on expensive models? What happens when you roll that double 1 or double 6 and kill 200+ points in models? For an Aspiring Sorcerer to make his points back he needs to kill at LEAST 65 points worth of models, because he will kill at LEAST himself and 1 Rubric when he perils.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 22:28:55


Post by: Fenris-77


Predators are way more efficient ranged support than either the Brutes or Maulers. I'd probably take at least on Tri-Las Pred in every 1K list.

DPs for punch, Tzaangors for bubble wrap, lots of smiting, Rubrics for midfield control, and Preds for fire support. Plus, you know, Magnus. If you have enough other fatties on the board the Preds aren't the obvious 1st turn target all the time.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/13 23:57:48


Post by: Yoyoyo


A min-size unit of Tzaangors being destroyed in one shooting phase by 20-40 marines isn't really unexpected.

I don't understand why that's a valid criticism.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 00:07:03


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Yoyoyo wrote:
A min-size unit of Tzaangors being destroyed in one shooting phase by 20-40 marines isn't really unexpected.

I don't understand why that's a valid criticism.


Becuase if dont bring any Tzzangors what are they going to shoot at?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 04:48:13


Post by: Tsol


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So, let me be clear I am not trying to be mean in this post, but you said some things that made it obvious that you are lacking in the knowledge department when it comes to this Army and the game in general.

 Tsol wrote:
Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.


Okay, here is your logic. If you have units that can die from small arms fire and units that can't die from small arms fire your better off then if you have ONLY units which don't die from small arms fire. So, even from a basic logic perspective there is a problem. This is not even looking at what Tzzangors are. Melee unit with pistols as an "upgrade" which make them much worse in CC. They have a LD of 7 and come in units of 10 minimum, they have no way to mitigate their leadership at all. This means if you kill 7 on a 3+ the rest of the squad runs off, the only way to get them to where they are supposed to be is to buy a Rhino, making them 14 PPM. 14 PPM for a "chaff" unit is ridiculous, a chaff unit that will only draw fire that we don't need them to draw. It takes 40 bolter shots to kill 8 Tzzangors, the same number of shots will kill 2 Rubrics, 40 points of Rubrics or 70 points of Tzzangors, those are your options.

 Tsol wrote:
Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.


Overcharged plasma is multi-damage(no All is Dust benefit) they are AP -3 which bumps your save up to 5+ lets assume you have that re-roll 1s for invul saves. Overcharged Plasma has S8 so they wound on 2s, with no support they kill 3 Rubrics (60 points min) and lose 1 guy, with rerolling 1s (which will probably always be the case) you kill 4 and lose 1 guy every 2 rounds of doing that.

 Tsol wrote:
10 man squads with the soul reaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.


I am unimpressed by the fact that my Elite unit of Rubric Marines are susceptible to Morale. Bringing 10 guys makes them more Susceptible, losing 8 guys in a turn means even a 1 on a morale test and I'm losing a 40 point model at least, that's not including if the army I'm fighting has anything that reduces the LD of an enemy unit.

 Tsol wrote:
As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and his stupid face smirks as he re-rolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.


That's great that it helps your friend sometimes, but exceptional circumstances cannot be used to judge the generic impact. Do the math the saves for from a 33% occurrence rate to a 39% occurrence rate, the difference is literally nil. The number is so low its almost embarrassing i would rather they made the unit 20 points cheaper and take the aura off.

 Tsol wrote:
Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.


Psykers are not the only way to get mortal wounds,there not even the best way to get mortal wounds since the main source is non-targetable. Snipers and units that cause mortal wounds that can actually target units rather then hit the closest are much better. Not to mention you should be bring Venomthropes for the -1 to hit.

 Tsol wrote:
Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or what have you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.


Yes they can be deadly if your opponent does not know what there doing. Stand more then 8" away and the flamers aren't allowed to shoot. Warp Flamers will become the most expensive "upgrade" that no one bring because it is borderline useless.

 Tsol wrote:
Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS


let me put a quote here from the book directly, from under the "Forces of the Thousand Sons" entry in the Chaos Index "The Heretic Astarties datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons Legion. Those that have the <Legion> keyword on thier datasheet can replace it in all instances with Thousand Sons. If a heretic astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the Thousand Sons Faction keyword". Chaos Lord is not on that list, and I will post the whole thing if you want. You CANNOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, the best you can do is put Rubrics in a regular CSM army as Elites, but then its not a Thousand Sons army then is it, its just a regular CSM army with Rubrics in it. The Chaos Lord does not give his bonus to "Heretic Astartes" he gives his bonus to units with the same "<Legion>" keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote:
They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge


Why is your opponent going to let you cast Smite on expensive models? What happens when you roll that double 1 or double 6 and kill 200+ points in models? For an Aspiring Sorcerer to make his points back he needs to kill at LEAST 65 points worth of models, because he will kill at LEAST himself and 1 Rubric when he perils.


No offense taken, nor do I think you're being mean and am always glad to be challenged! The only reason I'm posting on here is I assume most people have not played many games, if any let alone play have their games against the thousand suns, so I am sharing my experience and view of these units. But again, I must contest about half of your criticisms the others I agree with.

(Sorry I have no idea how to do the quote things so I'm just going to line item this)

I'm afraid on the first response, either I don't think I conveyed my meaning well, as your response has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Rubric marines excel at range combat, keep them there, you'll need support units to protect them or deter charges. I agree though, I think zangors are trash, I've had no trouble killing them in range or melee (as Tyranids and mech).

In 8th edition, armor saves are much better/useful than before, overall. Adding anything to that armor save is very useful. By this I mean, All is dust, combined with cover saves or other shenanigans (even the dreaded Void Sheild Generator, which mind you, gives a 4+ invu, and you pair that with a 1k sorceror, and you have a 4++ reroll 1s. It's things like this which theory hammer simply won't help you with until you play them on the table and start army building. The point being, these guys are very tough, with some of the best stock saves in the game plus invuls and when combined with combos and cover, become harder to remove off terrain than terminators (other than the scarabs, who also have all is dust and do the same thing but better).

Moral is moral, I agree, I don't like the mechanic. Anytime you're hit, you're probably going to lose models, its both a matter of choice and preference on how you wish to try and mitigate this. Many list builders are going for MSU, from my play experience, you're going to want bigger squads. Yes they are bigger targets, but to hold objectives and keep them at fighting strength or just to give them access to more weapons, you'll need bigger squads. Remember, in matched play, you can only attempt to cast 1 of each psyker power. Bigger squads will give you more bang for your buck on synergy bonuses, and this edition is all about AOS's character buffs. Again, this will come down to playstyle and preference. There are ways of mitigating moral, but don't worry, its not as bad as you think. I thought it was going to ruin the game until I realized it didn't nearly have as much as an impact as I thought it would. (I had similar thoughts on smite but after several games I changed my mind). Also FYI in your example, they have leadership 8 not 7 (Sorcerer gives the squad a slight LD buff), but yes. I can't take this criticism with much sincerity because I've seen how it palys and its not as bad as you think it is.

As for screens, I think we are construing our meanings here cause I wholly agree with you, chaff and screening units overall should be cheap. 1ksuns have somewhat expensive screeners but much more competent than most others. They'll perform better than cultist (situational) but what I was trying to make aware is 1 and 2 turn charges are common now. Rubric Marines are best at range but decent ay melee, you will NEED screeners be it chaff, or quality dedicated melee, because every turn they are not firing those bolters, you're wasting them as a unit. All armies are like this now. even Tau and space marines, you'll see people putting barebones scounts or even 5-10 man tactical squads bubble wrapping devestators and tanks to hinder and force deep strikers and 1 turn chargers to tackle them before the big guns.

Overcharged plasma will not be used unless someone brings rerolls or +1s to hit for synergy. Trust me, plasma is going to be big as my whole gaming group is running it a lot. But overcharge is not often used, until near the end of the game or when the unit is unlikely to survive the next turn (think of units about to be charged, or blown up from a more powerful unit). But yes, if out in the open and without support from a character, they will still lose 66% of their wounds. Which is shockingly good, considering they have a stock 5++ and when in cover or with a character they have effectively a 50% chance of ignoring it, (very crude mathhammer). Simply repeating that some of the best and most dangerous weapons in the game can kill these guys with much better ease than small arms fire to me, doesn't mean much, cause that is true for all units in the game. Which these units would stand better against than most. All I can save here is, try some skirmish games. Place some plasma guns at 24" and an equal amount of points of Rubircs and play it out, and simply watch how the games play. Or if you have friends who will test game with you, do it with them. I think you'll be surprised how hardy they are. Plasma or not. Remember, try not to think in a vacuum. Assume other units are on the table, assume there are more Rubrics and character buffs. Don't take my word for it. Try it.

As for taking wounds, and how that's bad, yes. It is. I'm assuming here that you have not played much of 8th. Things die. This is possibly the most lethal version of Warhammer I have played, (since 2ed). If you think a unit is bad because it may lose 2 or 3 models to focused plasma fire a round, you'll be happy to hear that just about any other units won't get saves, and will suffer much worse casualties than the Rubircs.

Yes, I agree, I don't like the new moral mechanic. However, I don't think its going away. I'll avoid repeating myself here and just move on to your next point.

Rerolls are good. It may not seem that way, but they are. Especially for an expensive unit. I agree though they should not be relied upon, but refer again to my comments about combos and you'll see why even just a reroll of invul saves of 1 is still good.

Correct, I wholly agree, mortal wounds are a hard counter to 1k suns due to their one wounds and high cost. Just a reminder, that is very true for most units in the game. However, most mortal wounds (in our games, as we have lots of psykers, my buddy being Thousand suns and me playing Tyranids) or at least large chunks of them come from psykers, throwing d3 or d6 or d3+d3, or d3+d6 mortal wounds about. As an Admech player and Tyranid player, I have many sources of Mortal wounds. Also yes, expect to see shittons of venomthropes. I currently only have 3 and fully intend to buy some more this weekend and hopfully get them painted up. They are super useful.

I'll take the flamer remark more as just a comment, not a criticism. Yes, flamers are expensive. For everyone. Rubric marines have some of th best flamers in the game. If you don't like them, thats fine, don't use them. But I have seen a rubric flamers delete both my genestealers and gaunts on overwatch and even 15 ork boys (out of thirty). Who they then beat in melee, because my buddy didn't roll at 1s on his armor saves. All I can say is, take the right tool for the job, if you don't expect them to be useful or want to use flamers, then don't. Keep their boltguns.

As for detachments, I'm happy to inform you, that you are both correct and wrong. You are correct that Thousnd sons legion restriction, you are wrong on army building. I'll post the core rule book page descirbing detachments if you like or even the character rules if you'd like to see their wording. I'll explain: You decide to take a Chaos detachment. You take 1k suns as your main leads, you take 1ks sorceror, a bunch of 1k suns maybe some zangors. Now you notice, you'd like some tanks or deamons. I'm going to capitolize some words here only to highlight keywords. You can take ANY units from the CHAOS Index in your CHAOS detachment. However, not all benefits will carry across all legions and units. For example, Magnus has several faction keywords I'll list them here: Chaos, Zeentch, Heretical astartes, thousand suns. As long as all your forces, in your whole detachment share at least one keyword such as CHAOS you can take them together in that detachment. This is also how Regualr Chaos forces can take Deamons or Magnus, despite not being Deamons or thousand suns. If you decide to only play thousands suns, you can, but your very, very limited, to the point you can't even take Rhinos or land raiders to transport troops, as those are CHOAS, faction not THOUSAND SUNS.

This is what allows you to take a Chaos generic Lord with your Chaos army or thousands suns, detachment and again. Just make sure your keywords match. I implore you not to ignore my claim again and check it yourself if you still doubt me, or if you'd rather I can post the pictures of the pages describing this.

And again, thanks for the criticisms, I'm always happy to hear other's thoughts as hopuflly I can learn something knew or get corrected on something I got wrong. And again, no worry, no offense taken!














All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 05:02:25


Post by: TzeentchNet


To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.

But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 05:03:23


Post by: Tsol


Pfff, I was going to highlight the Lord of Chaos buff. And you're correct, it does say specifically Legion, not Heretic Astartes. He cannot grant it to a dedicated thousand suns force, only a combined force. To which I concede but still think there is little reasons (other than fluff which can be a powerful reason) not to take a Chaos force over a thousand suns only force.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 05:11:50


Post by: TzeentchNet


 Tsol wrote:
Pfff, I was going to highlight the Lord of Chaos buff. And you're correct, it does say specifically Legion, not Heretic Astartes. He cannot grant it to a dedicated thousand suns force, only a combined force. To which I concede but still think there is little reasons (other than fluff which can be a powerful reason) not to take a Chaos force over a thousand suns only force.

Agreed. I'm hoping the Codex makes taking mono-Legion a bit more attractive.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 07:24:27


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


TzeentchNet wrote:
To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.

But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.


You can but only if you bring a generic CSM army and take Rubrics as an Elites choice.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 07:25:19


Post by: peirceg


1 blue horror(or a pink if you want an icon) and 9 brimstone horros - best troop choice in the game. 4+ invulnerable with 10 wounds at 23 pts. Also comes with a 1/3 chance of smithing something.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 16:28:22


Post by: TzeentchNet


Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.
But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.


You can but only if ypu bring a generic CSM army and take Rubrics as an Elites choice.

Aye, absolutely. I'm currently of the opinion that Rubrics are not as valuable in the Elite slot, but that's just my theoryhammer as I haven't used them outside of Thousand Sons faction. None of their combos with the 'generic' Chaos leaders really excites me, but I expect that to all change (or at least be a real decision) down the road. I think the upcoming Death Guard expansion will give us all a better idea of what to expect from Cult/Legion troops.

peirceg wrote:1 blue horror(or a pink if you want an icon) and 9 brimstone horros - best troop choice in the game. 4+ invulnerable with 10 wounds at 23 pts. Also comes with a 1/3 chance of smithing something.

Yes, this gets pretty disgusting (and mobs of Brimstones with The Changeling running herd is a great meatshield in the games I've had so far). For those wondering, you want the single blue horror so that you can use him as the Smite source - manifesting a power with just Brimstones means one automatically dies after the attempt.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/14 22:36:38


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Tsol wrote:
(Sorry I have no idea how to do the quote things so I'm just going to line item this)


Top right corner of every post has a quote button.

 Tsol wrote:
I'm afraid on the first response, either I don't think I conveyed my meaning well, as your response has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Rubric marines excel at range combat, keep them there, you'll need support units to protect them or deter charges. I agree though, I think zangors are trash, I've had no trouble killing them in range or melee (as Tyranids and mech).

As for screens, I think we are construing our meanings here cause I wholly agree with you, chaff and screening units overall should be cheap. 1ksuns have somewhat expensive screeners but much more competent than most others. They'll perform better than cultist (situational) but what I was trying to make aware is 1 and 2 turn charges are common now. Rubric Marines are best at range but decent at melee, you will NEED screeners be it chaff, or quality dedicated melee, because every turn they are not firing those bolters, you're wasting them as a unit. All armies are like this now. even Tau and space marines, you'll see people putting barebones scounts or even 5-10 man tactical squads bubble wrapping devestators and tanks to hinder and force deep strikers and 1 turn chargers to tackle them before the big guns.


I realize you think it has nothing to do with what you said, but what I am saying is that there is no chaff that will draw the fire of weapons that you don't want shot at Rubrics. The best weapons to shoot at Rubrics are multi damage S8 weapons, your not going to find a "chaff" unit that can draw that fire for cheap which will do the job. The best "chaff" unit we have access to are cultists which die just as fast as rubrics point for point except Rubrics come with a better weapon, so your better off taking a Rubric rather then 4 Cultists. Rubrics are SUPPOSED to be good at ranged combat, but they are just not. They lack the model count to be any kind of noticeable force when it comes to ranged fighting, and they are slow AND have short ranges (24" is their max range). The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off.

 Tsol wrote:
In 8th edition, armor saves are much better/useful than before, overall. Adding anything to that armor save is very useful. By this I mean, All is dust, combined with cover saves or other shenanigans (even the dreaded Void Sheild Generator, which mind you, gives a 4+ invu, and you pair that with a 1k sorceror, and you have a 4++ reroll 1s. It's things like this which theory hammer simply won't help you with until you play them on the table and start army building. The point being, these guys are very tough, with some of the best stock saves in the game plus invuls and when combined with combos and cover, become harder to remove off terrain than terminators (other than the scarabs, who also have all is dust and do the same thing but better).

Overcharged plasma will not be used unless someone brings re-rolls or +1s to hit for synergy. Trust me, plasma is going to be big as my whole gaming group is running it a lot. But overcharge is not often used, until near the end of the game or when the unit is unlikely to survive the next turn (think of units about to be charged, or blown up from a more powerful unit). But yes, if out in the open and without support from a character, they will still lose 66% of their wounds. Which is shockingly good, considering they have a stock 5++ and when in cover or with a character they have effectively a 50% chance of ignoring it, (very crude mathhammer). Simply repeating that some of the best and most dangerous weapons in the game can kill these guys with much better ease than small arms fire to me, doesn't mean much, cause that is true for all units in the game. Which these units would stand better against than most. All I can save here is, try some skirmish games. Place some plasma guns at 24" and an equal amount of points of Rubircs and play it out, and simply watch how the games play. Or if you have friends who will test game with you, do it with them. I think you'll be surprised how hardy they are. Plasma or not. Remember, try not to think in a vacuum. Assume other units are on the table, assume there are more Rubrics and character buffs. Don't take my word for it. Try it.


Yes armor helps, but it doesn't help that much, and its not totally insurmountable. Plasma is cheap, like dirt cheap, 13 points for MEQ and 7 for GEQ. 2 special weapons squads with Plasma rifles and a Company Commander, costs just over 150 points and can kill 2 rubrics outside of rapid fire range and 4 rubrics inside rapid fire range. It kills other units just as fast or faster, but they don't cost 20 points per model. In fact other units that cost about the same, like plague marines, are much more resilient to plasma fire (Taking 2 wounds when Rubrics take 4 wounds). The problem is the unit they want you to use to draw that fire are Tzzangors, which are NEVER going to draw that fire its just not going to happen. This is the problem. This is why its a valid criticism.

 Tsol wrote:
Moral is moral, I agree, I don't like the mechanic. Anytime you're hit, you're probably going to lose models, its both a matter of choice and preference on how you wish to try and mitigate this. Many list builders are going for MSU, from my play experience, you're going to want bigger squads. Yes they are bigger targets, but to hold objectives and keep them at fighting strength or just to give them access to more weapons, you'll need bigger squads. Remember, in matched play, you can only attempt to cast 1 of each psyker power. Bigger squads will give you more bang for your buck on synergy bonuses, and this edition is all about AOS's character buffs. Again, this will come down to playstyle and preference. There are ways of mitigating moral, but don't worry, its not as bad as you think. I thought it was going to ruin the game until I realized it didn't nearly have as much as an impact as I thought it would. (I had similar thoughts on smite but after several games I changed my mind). Also FYI in your example, they have leadership 8 not 7 (Sorcerer gives the squad a slight LD buff), but yes. I can't take this criticism with much sincerity because I've seen how it palys and its not as bad as you think it is.

As for taking wounds, and how that's bad, yes. It is. I'm assuming here that you have not played much of 8th. Things die. This is possibly the most lethal version of Warhammer I have played, (since 2ed). If you think a unit is bad because it may lose 2 or 3 models to focused plasma fire a round, you'll be happy to hear that just about any other units won't get saves, and will suffer much worse casualties than the Rubircs.

Yes, I agree, I don't like the new moral mechanic. However, I don't think its going away. I'll avoid repeating myself here and just move on to your next point.


I don't mind the morale mechanic as long as its applied consistently. Elite units don't suffer losses from morale, or rarely do. If there was a way to mitigate Morale losses so I could bring 10 man squads and get that extra fire power it wouldn't be a problem, but when you have almost 100 points run off the board in a single turn and can lose up to 100 points per unit you bring of 10 that is not an option.

 Tsol wrote:
Rerolls are good. It may not seem that way, but they are. Especially for an expensive unit. I agree though they should not be relied upon, but refer again to my comments about combos and you'll see why even just a reroll of invul saves of 1 is still good.


Some re-rolls are good, some are not. Re-rolling 1s can be a nice boon on anything that has a 4+. But 5+ and beyond its almost useless. As a reference point 4+ re-rolling 1s means an 8% increase (58.3%) a 3+ rerolling 1s gives you an 11% increase (77.7%) a 5+ only gets a 6% increase (38.8%). The 4+ doesn't seem like much but it pushes your failures down to almost 40% which is good. The 3+ Pushes you over 75% success which is very good having only a 22.3% failure rate is extremely good.

 Tsol wrote:
I'll take the flamer remark more as just a comment, not a criticism. Yes, flamers are expensive. For everyone. Rubric marines have some of th best flamers in the game. If you don't like them, thats fine, don't use them. But I have seen a rubric flamers delete both my genestealers and gaunts on overwatch and even 15 ork boys (out of thirty). Who they then beat in melee, because my buddy didn't roll at 1s on his armor saves. All I can say is, take the right tool for the job, if you don't expect them to be useful or want to use flamers, then don't. Keep their boltguns.


I am fine with taking weapons that do a job, but for 15 points, they better do that job extremely well. Especially if they only have a range of 8" on a model that has a 5" move. They don't do their job well that's the problem. Over watch can be totally negated, by standing more then 8" away, their cost means bringing a 5 man units with all flamers puts you around 170 points. 170 points even if you split the cost of a Rhino with another unit puts you over 200 points per unit, and HAVE to be within rapid fire range of the very weapons that will shred that unit to be able to use. But lets assume you do get this unit within 8" and manage to do 6 wounds to MEQ, and then they will be deleted. They amount to an extremely expensive upgrade that is little more then a deterrent to units to that want to be in CC with them. As to your examples everyone of those units has the ability to re-roll. All of those units should have been outside of 8" and you still would have made the charge most of the time. Mentioning how your friend has killed large numbers of Orks is at best anecdotal evidence. The average number of Orks that should die from flamer over watch is 7 not including the Aspiring Sorcerer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
Aye, absolutely. I'm currently of the opinion that Rubrics are not as valuable in the Elite slot, but that's just my theoryhammer as I haven't used them outside of Thousand Sons faction. None of their combos with the 'generic' Chaos leaders really excites me, but I expect that to all change (or at least be a real decision) down the road. I think the upcoming Death Guard expansion will give us all a better idea of what to expect from Cult/Legion troops.


Try Chaos Lord on a Disk of Tzzentch, with a Combi-Plasma and whatever CC weapon you want him to have (I prefer Lighting Claw)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 00:50:54


Post by: Yoyoyo


Once again, you are making some points that are on pretty shaky ground, like Flamers are a bad weapon because you might get charged from 9" away.

If they deter charges that's a good thing. If they make charges unreliable that's a good thing. If they inflict heavy casualties that's a good thing. The only question is opportunity cost, such as what's a better counter-assault solution. This is something you have not actually attempted to answer!

There is no perfect unit. The only real question is "what would work better"?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 02:19:01


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Yoyoyo wrote:
Once again, you are making some points that are on pretty shaky ground, like Flamers are a bad weapon because you might get charged from 9" away.

If they deter charges that's a good thing. If they make charges unreliable that's a good thing. If they inflict heavy casualties that's a good thing. The only question is opportunity cost, such as what's a better counter-assault solution. This is something you have not actually attempted to answer!

There is no perfect unit. The only real question is "what would work better"?


Its not a "might" people will charge you from 9" away. They will make it a point to stay out of the flamers range espically if they have rerolls for their charge. Units with good armor saves or T5+ are not going to take heavy casualties. T4 models that get no save at all take 7 wounds. 30 Boyz don't have to worry about the casualties because on average 23 will get in which is more then enough to take the entire squad.

Im not saying that the deterrant is a bad thing. If it actully deters people from charging, but it dosen't it just makes it mildy harder to get the charge off (14% difference).

The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser. We have neither the support nor the units we need to stop a first turn charge, or a gunline army.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 11:50:56


Post by: lessthanjeff


You mentioned wanting an ability to control morale in case someone shoots at your 10 man unit and whittles it down to just a couple models. Don't forget about the strategem to ignore a morale check. I haven't run my 10 man units yet, but I was planning on saving my command points for keeping the soulreaper cannon alive at the end.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 17:07:57


Post by: Yoyoyo


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser.
Look. It's possible to get a Warpflamer unit 2" away from an Ork unit. If that Ork unit only moves 5", how will they charge you from 9" away?

You need to take the initiative here to create the situations that favour you, not just sit there like a punching bag. Don't let the opponent take the fight to you. This is not a gunline army where your only challenge is list building and target selection.

So do you have any ideas about how to maneuver Warpflamer Rubrics into range? Or is this another situation where "there are no answers?"


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 17:35:31


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 lessthanjeff wrote:
You mentioned wanting an ability to control morale in case someone shoots at your 10 man unit and whittles it down to just a couple models. Don't forget about the strategem to ignore a morale check. I haven't run my 10 man units yet, but I was planning on saving my command points for keeping the soulreaper cannon alive at the end.


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser.
Look. It's possible to get a Warpflamer unit 2" away from an Ork unit. If that Ork unit only moves 5", how will they charge you from 9" away?

You need to take the initiative here to create the situations that favor you, not just sit there like a punching bag. Don't let the opponent take the fight to you. This is not a gun line army where your only challenge is list building and target selection.

So do you have any ideas about how to maneuver Warpflamer Rubrics into range? Or is this another situation where "there are no answers?"


Except I already pointed out that Orks really don't have to worry their T is high enough to face tank the flamers and still get in with enough models to kill the unit, SM will be in trouble if they have only 5, Gaunts and Guard lose a LOT, like 10 models, but then they come in armies of 200 so 10 isn't stressful. Genestealers would lose a noticeable chunk, 5 models, but they have an 8 move and can re-roll. Units can either tank the shots or posses the movement to get outside of range.

Getting Warpflamers close, that's a lot of bad answers. Transport inflates the price of an already expensive unit, Warp Time can only be cast on a single unit which means you will have a lone unit way out in-front of you army which is not good. You can also foot slog it. Which is by far the cheapest but will take 2-3 turns at least to get in range with your flamers.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 19:42:03


Post by: Benlisted


Okay so, recently invested in a 30k 1k sons army and 8th has me plotting how best to run it. I have the following:

30 legion vets with boltguns (6 w/ power swords, 3 sarges w/ fists)
10 sekhmet
spartan
3 deimos rhinos (magged pintles and havocs)
ahriman
the 2 chars from calth converted up as a medicae cataphractii and libby
6 jetbikes
1 double claw+grav dread in a dread pod

Have been running some points, and a core of:
Ahriman
Exalted Sorc
3x5 Rubrics
2x5 Scarabs, 1 Missles 1 Soulreaper each (planning on using magged bits)
Spartan (estimating points based on listed power)

...is approximately 1600pts. Thoughts on what else I could do? If I max out the three rubric squads, add soulreapers, and add a rhino I pretty much hit 2k. Similarly, 2 twin las and claw dreads are likely also a similar cost. Can't really see how to make the bikes work.

Also a question - given the Spartan and Contemptors are gonna be Helforged from FW, where does that leave me in terms of detachments? I've only read that everything in one must share a keyword - which all the listed stuff would - but I cannot work out how this interacts with the Thousand Sons army list?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 19:57:15


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.



Huh? I was referring to your statement "The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off. "

I'm pointing out that you can take 10 man units, get the soulreaper cannon if you want it, not feel the need to spam warpflamers, and not fear losing extra models from morale. My lists so far just have 2 10 man units in them with only a couple warpflamers in each squad and a soulreaper in each. I have 9 command points so I can spare tossing a couple at saving a few models especially if they'll be ones with valuable weapons in a prime position to take advantage of them.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/15 23:04:20


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 lessthanjeff wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.



Huh? I was referring to your statement "The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off. "

I'm pointing out that you can take 10 man units, get the soulreaper cannon if you want it, not feel the need to spam warpflamers, and not fear losing extra models from morale. My lists so far just have 2 10 man units in them with only a couple warpflamers in each squad and a soulreaper in each. I have 9 command points so I can spare tossing a couple at saving a few models especially if they'll be ones with valuable weapons in a prime position to take advantage of them.


That's fine not sure how your getting 9 CP from 2 units, however that is not the problem the problem is that passing morale is 2 points each which means you have to bank those, and cant ever use them, which leaves you with 5 for re-rolls. For you to have 9 CP that means you have at least 4 HQs and unless I'm mistaken the minimum number of spells you can be casting per turn is 6, or your not running a Thousand Sons army, that gives you a chance to perils every 3 turns which you also need to bank, leaving you with 3 CP left, for re-rolls which some one could make you burn through in a single turn to prevent losing your expensive models.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 12:59:34


Post by: lessthanjeff


The list I've made for my next practice game is 2 detachments if that's what you're trying to figure out.

Ahriman
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Tzaangors x10
Kharn the Betrayer
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Khorne Berserkers x10
Khorne Berserkers x10
Bloodletters x15
Heldrake

I will make more full Tson lists later but I'll probably be replacing the khorne stuff with scarab occult, maulerfiends, tanks, and/or havocs (of course I'll need to get Magnus out there sometimes too)

Right now, I don't see the point in relying a lot on psychic powers since we only have 3 to cast and can't cast the same spell twice (for the format I typically play) so I don't see the need to set aside as many dice for powers as you're describing. I will toss out smite when there is a good target of course, but I don't think my aspiring sorcs will be doing it much if ever. You also can't say every game you'll have to use 4 cp for morale control. You're not going to have every unit take exactly 7 or 8 casualties every game. You'll have lots of games where 1 unit take 4 casualties then the next it's killed completely or maybe the other way around so I wouldn't try to portion out your CP so meticulously.

Right now lots of armies are kind of weird to use since we don't have the codices yet. Once we do, we should get back our psychic power access and some good unique strategems to use. For now, I'm treating the thousand sons stuff more as elite killers for taking down units with good saves.

I'm not saying Rubrics are the best things since sliced bread, but I'm saying that they can be used in game now which is a much better place than they've been in a long time and I can't wait to see what the codex adds to get our unique flavor back.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 14:38:29


Post by: Yoyoyo


TSS you might want to consider that if you charge a bigger Rubric squad with a Cannon and extra models, it's not as attractive to risk a 9" charge. You'll still eat Overwatch from the 24" weapons and the greater distance increases your risk of not making it in.

Plus in a bigger squad, the Sorcerer will have more time to put damage in CC with the Force Weapon and Pistol you're paying for.

Psychic Powers are pretty restricted right now but maybe Prescience + rr1s from Magnus could get some traction. And of course the bigger the squad, the more value you get for a unit buff.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 17:42:56


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 lessthanjeff wrote:
The list I've made for my next practice game is 2 detachments if that's what you're trying to figure out.

Ahriman
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Tzaangors x10
Kharn the Betrayer
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Khorne Berserkers x10
Khorne Berserkers x10
Bloodletters x15
Heldrake


I will make more full Tson lists later but I'll probably be replacing the khorne stuff with scarab occult, maulerfiends, tanks, and/or havocs (of course I'll need to get Magnus out there sometimes too)

Right now, I don't see the point in relying a lot on psychic powers since we only have 3 to cast and can't cast the same spell twice (for the format I typically play) so I don't see the need to set aside as many dice for powers as you're describing. I will toss out smite when there is a good target of course, but I don't think my aspiring sorcs will be doing it much if ever. You also can't say every game you'll have to use 4 cp for morale control. You're not going to have every unit take exactly 7 or 8 casualties every game. You'll have lots of games where 1 unit take 4 casualties then the next it's killed completely or maybe the other way around so I wouldn't try to portion out your CP so meticulously.

Right now lots of armies are kind of weird to use since we don't have the codices yet. Once we do, we should get back our psychic power access and some good unique strategems to use. For now, I'm treating the thousand sons stuff more as elite killers for taking down units with good saves.

I'm not saying Rubrics are the best things since sliced bread, but I'm saying that they can be used in game now which is a much better place than they've been in a long time and I can't wait to see what the codex adds to get our unique flavor back.


The stuff in red is only legal as a Patrol Detachment, Which means you would have 6CP not 9.

This is my point your not playing a TS army your playing a Chaos Army and using Rubrics as an Elites choice. You have a bunch of fairly cheap models to run out in front of the army that will draw the enemy fire. Replace those Berserkers and Bloodletters with Tzzangors and Rubrics. You opponents will hit the rubrics with the heavy stuff and the Tzzangors with most small arms fire that can reach them. They are an elites army that wants to pay you 7PPM for chaff AND put them in a Rhino, making the base cost of your chaff unit 20 points higher then your non chaff unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
TSS you might want to consider that if you charge a bigger Rubric squad with a Cannon and extra models, it's not as attractive to risk a 9" charge. You'll still eat Overwatch from the 24" weapons and the greater distance increases your risk of not making it in.

Plus in a bigger squad, the Sorcerer will have more time to put damage in CC with the Force Weapon and Pistol you're paying for.

Psychic Powers are pretty restricted right now but maybe Prescience + rr1s from Magnus could get some traction. And of course the bigger the squad, the more value you get for a unit buff.


Yes, except if you charge a larger unit with only 2 flamers your going lose 3-4 max.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 19:55:19


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


The stuff in red is only legal as a Patrol Detachment, Which means you would have 6CP not 9.

This is my point your not playing a TS army your playing a Chaos Army and using Rubrics as an Elites choice. You have a bunch of fairly cheap models to run out in front of the army that will draw the enemy fire. Replace those Berserkers and Bloodletters with Tzzangors and Rubrics. You opponents will hit the rubrics with the heavy stuff and the Tzzangors with most small arms fire that can reach them. They are an elites army that wants to pay you 7PPM for chaff AND put them in a Rhino, making the base cost of your chaff unit 20 points higher then your non chaff unit.



You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 20:24:14


Post by: Yoyoyo


I don't think it's bad that only 3-4 models are removed a turn. Let's compare at points, 2 Warpflamer Marines versus 11 Boyz at 66pts each.

In one shooting phase and one overwatch phase, a pair of Warpflamers will remove 42pts of Orkz. The remaining Orkz will then slapfight the Rubrics, the Orkz probably losing a model but generally being about four times as cost-effective in CC.

Since they lost about 8 models, to maybe killing a single Rubric Marine, without Morale tricks do the Orkz crumble? Probably. Does this mean Warpflamer Rubrics are good solution against Orkz? Well only when we cherry-pick a scenario and ignore all the other factors in our artificial comparison. This kind of selective mathhammer is maybe good for considering capability, but a bad way to pass judgment on a unit. Generally Rubrics are great at shooting up more expensive 3+ or 4+ units. A little more capability against hordes can be useful but I don't think it's why you want to field them.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 20:27:51


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 lessthanjeff wrote:
You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.


Try this:

2 Deamon Princes w/ 2 Malefic Talons
4 5 Man Squads of Rubrics w/ 2 flamers
2 5 Man SOT w/ Soul Reaper and Hellfyre Missile Rack
2 Rhinos
2 10 man Tzzangor units

that's 1,732 you can fill from there as you like.

Put the Rubrics in the Rhinos during deployment.

Keep in mind first turn you can disembark the Rubrics 3" and then move them 5" advance and still fire the flamers. Then embark the Tzzangors and move the Rhino up to block LOS of the more threatening weapons to the Rubrics.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 22:00:18


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.


Try this:

2 Deamon Princes w/ 2 Malefic Talons
4 5 Man Squads of Rubrics w/ 2 flamers
2 5 Man SOT w/ Soul Reaper and Hellfyre Missile Rack
2 Rhinos
2 10 man Tzzangor units

that's 1,732 you can fill from there as you like.

Put the Rubrics in the Rhinos during deployment.

Keep in mind first turn you can disembark the Rubrics 3" and then move them 5" advance and still fire the flamers. Then embark the Tzzangors and move the Rhino up to block LOS of the more threatening weapons to the Rubrics.


Oh I'm definitely going to get some Thousand Sons only lists in like that soon, but I want to keep more varied lists for now until the codices come out. There are too many different units I need to try spread across too many different armies. That does sound pretty clever with advancing up the rubrics and getting some flames off if anything is nearby though. I've got to remember that I can still shoot after advancing with those.

I just want to make sure I haven't misunderstood something in the listbuilding stage for you to say my rubrics won't be troops and that I'd only have 6 command points though. I am thinking of switching the heldrake out for warptalons//scarab occult tomorrow so that I can drop them in and psychic phase move them up before charging though.

Edit: I'm not actually sure I can't use the original list I posted as two different battalion detachments as I described. I'm not seeing anything on the World Eater's rules that say you can only have world eater's units in the same detachment to get berserkers as troops in the same way that Space Marine armies can take Astra Militarum tanks for heavy support slots. By calling it a world eater's detachment I get khorne berserkers as troops but that doesn't seem to stop other troop slots from still being taken as far as I can tell. Am I missing something?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/16 23:52:50


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


You could use the army but it would only get you 6 CP not 9. If you swap out the bloodletters then you would be good.

World eaters is restricted to CSM


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 00:01:15


Post by: lessthanjeff


Making a World Eater's detachment doesn't seem to restrict you from taking other units as far as I can tell. It's just that only certain units get the "World Eater's" as a keyword. They're still both chaos faction just like how an imperial army can mix and match slots from various different armies in one detachment, right?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 04:48:57


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 05:56:05


Post by: TzeentchNet


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.

You can have Rubric Marines as Troops as long as they are Thousand Sons Faction. You don't need to have the entire detachment as Thousand Sons to get that benefit. They may introduce theme detachments later that do have additional restrictions. If you want to mix Berserker World Eaters and Rubric Thousand Sons in the same detachment and both are Troops that's totally kosher too. Just follow any restrictions on the detachment itself.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 10:52:59


Post by: Tsol


I'm going to try and edit this to shrink it down, I'll attempt to correct it, if I fail (still new to the whole quoting/editing things on this intranet thing.

@Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Thank you! ---edit, I didn't figure out how to cut/only quote certain things. Im going to have to look it up to make this easier for me and you.

"I realize you think it has nothing to do with what you said, but what I am saying is..."

Yes, I agree with you here, Rubrics feel the loss really hard when hit by heavy weapons. As someone who has 3 squads of Kataphrons Heavy Grav/Plasma cannons, these units remove Rubrics with frightening efficiency. But again, their 5++ and rerolls of 1 mean instead of me outright removing my buddies squads, he usually suffers half casualties. In our games, I'd fire 15 heavy grav and kill about 3 of his Rubrics per exchange. Usually, I didn't lose any of my breaches, cause they were often out of range (except for that damn cannon), but they can also be repaired. Which they faired better than his termies (not scarabs but regular), which is why I say they are beefy burritos. Anything that can take that kind of firepower and only lose a few models is hardy. Though I haven't played against any plague marines yet, I can imagine that 5+++ being a huge pain.


"Yes armor helps, but it doesn't help that much, and its not totally insurmountable..."

I fully understand, right now I'm already plotting how to plasma spam the crap out of my guard. Haven't had any real experience with it yet though. My plasma has only been from my kataphrons and Space marines, whom I now favor other guys for them, due to their high costs of plasma. And again, I agree, Tazangors can't take a range hit. I'd recommend only using them as a melee screen, to deter or step inbetween anything that tries to tie up your 1ksuns. And yes, armour can be sundered, but every bit helps. It's realy annoying for my gaunts to wound rubrics 15 times and only see one of his 1ks drop. Cause that 1+ armor save (always put them in cover) is a pain in the ass to deal with.


"I don't mind the morale mechanic as long as its applied consistently..."

I personally hate it, I think by far it is the worst and most half-assed thing in all of 8th. It reeks of laziness and lack of inspiration as well as outright "eh, feth the fluff/lore". The reasons why I'm not giving much response on this is because it applies to all units now. Its just a new risk/reward mechanic now, which I hate, and when I'm army building do my best to find a means to ignore or mitigate it. I have no opinion on it other than I think its garbage and will hopefully be the first thing done away with next edition.


"Some re-rolls are good, some are not...."

Right now, my buddy is making his next list to include bunkers or the Void shield generator. Which both of these fortifications, help tremendously with survivability. The bunker gives up to 20 units effectively impunity from fire for the first 2 turns and can fire back (i think 10 if i remember correctly) without hindrance. The deamonprice? (notsure, still need to reread the chaos index) grants those sweet rerolls of 1s for 1ks since the Chaos Lord is out, but hes a bit expensive to be a babysitter, but that voidsheild generator granting everything within 12" bubble that awesome 4++ plus rerolls makes Rubrics (or anything really) very hardy. I suppose this also comes down to prefernce. I personally enjoy any rerolls I can get. In the few games I've played as Admech, the Void shield granting my robots a 3++ (due to special rules) made all of my buddies literally not bother shooting their heavy weapons at them, since a Laz cannon shot which can be dismised on a 3++ or in the case of a Rubirc 4++/reroll of 1s, will be placed on a different target. Or if still shot, has a high chance of mitigation. Combos like this are why I think that reroll of 1 for armor/shooting are so much better in game than on paper.

"I am fine with taking weapons that do a job, but for 15 points, they better do that job extremely well..."

i think here, our disagreement is just on prefrence. I think those flamers are worth it, because they kill soooo many of my damn troops. As a Tyranid melee player, I often simply don't charge units with 2-3 flamers. I'll charge the stuff that won't kill half my force before getting into melee. As an example, I had 15 genestealers charge a 5 man rubric squad with 4 flamers. He killed 9 of my genestealers on overwatch. For me, its too costly, I'll only charge them now if I don't have a choice or I need to tie them up. *Also note Warplame pistols are pistols.... They shoot in melee. That was a nasty surprise for me. So far in almost every game I have played across every factions me and my buddies have played/played against. MVP weapon is always flamers. This could change once my local META and experince of the game changes/improves.


Overall, I am very impressed with the 1ksuns. But I understand your detraction. I'm actually thinking of taking a 1ksun army, due to both, they look super cool, and I could build an army for super cheap. I think their strength is also their weakness, superheavy elite troops. I'm thinking of getting 3 boxes of Rubric Marines and a sorcerer lords box of 3 thing. Then either using daemons or dreadnaughts for heavy fire support (those forge fiends I think?). The goal being, 3 ten man squads of Rubircs (maybe more if I'm feeling sassy, buffed by deamonprice and sorcerors to jut throw ap-2 out across the board and hug cover or hide in bunkers, then have my dreadnaughts/forgiends deal with Monsterious creatures/tanks. I already have a Deamon Prince, dreadnaughts and some rhions, so it would be a relatively cheap and cool force to play.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 11:40:47


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.


They have said that the keywords are a bit pointless right now and that we have to wait and see for how they work in the future. It sounds like we'll get keyword specific auras and strategems with our codex, which is why in the future we'll want to play a force that sticks to the most narrow keyword possible. It's similar in age of sigmar if you've played that. You get better benefits the more narrow the keywords represent your army so you can play a mixed chaos undivided army and get minor buffs or play a tsons only army and get bigger buffs that only affect those units. For now, there's no real need to play a super narrow force because we don't get any of the benefits from it yet. For now, all of the units I listed do share a common keyword "chaos".


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 20:41:50


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 21:46:06


Post by: gummyofallbears


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.


Yeah except it doesn't make that statement anywhere, coming from AOS it makes sense, but in fact that isn't how the rules are written.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/17 22:52:21


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Tsol wrote:
Yes, I agree with you here, Rubrics feel the loss really hard when hit by heavy weapons.

 Tsol wrote:
And again, I agree, Tazangors can't take a range hit. I'd recommend only using them as a melee screen, to deter or step inbetween anything that tries to tie up your 1ksuns.


These two things are the problem. My chaff unit needs to stand in front of my shooty unit, but if they do that then they are going to get shot up because all my weapons are 24" so for the Tzzangors to be in front they must be closer then 24", and because they have a terrible save it dosen't take much shooting to kill them, and they don't survive long in CC either.

 Tsol wrote:
I personally hate it, I think by far it is the worst and most half-assed thing in all of 8th.


It's the only way to deal with horde units.

 Tsol wrote:
Right now, my buddy is making his next list to include bunkers or the Void shield generator. Which both of these fortifications, help tremendously with survivability.


Now I want you to think about this, you friend is paying 400 points to make one of the most durable armies more durable. Does that seem reasonable to you?

 Tsol wrote:
i think here, our disagreement is just on prefrence. I think those flamers are worth it, because they kill soooo many of my damn troops. As a Tyranid melee player, I often simply don't charge units with 2-3 flamers. I'll charge the stuff that won't kill half my force before getting into melee. As an example, I had 15 genestealers charge a 5 man rubric squad with 4 flamers. He killed 9 of my genestealers on overwatch. For me, its too costly, I'll only charge them now if I don't have a choice or I need to tie them up.


This is not preferance, I pay lots of points for Rubrics as is, and adding a Warpflamer makes the models 33 points a piece. Terminators are 32 points, have more firepower outside of 8". Inside 8" they have almost the same fire power and 2 wounds same save, better in CC AND have Deepstrike. For me to get that unit close enough to do anything I HAVE to get a Rhino which ups the points to 40 per model, do you know what you can get for 40 PPM?

And again the genestealer thing was a fluke he killed 2x the models he should have.

 Tsol wrote:
*Also note Warplame pistols are pistols.


Warpflame pistols are worth thier points, but only because you can shoot them in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gummyofallbears wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.


Yeah except it doesn't make that statement anywhere, coming from AOS it makes sense, but in fact that isn't how the rules are written.


Yes it does it says "Heretic Astartes data sheets from pages 16 to 42" that means only Heretic Astartes units can have that Faction keyword, if bloodletters can't have WE Faction keyword then your army cant be WE it can ONLY be Chaos.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 01:25:23


Post by: Arachnofiend


What are people's thoughts on Aetaos for a Thousand Sons army? He's definitely a better model on his own than Magnus (as he should be at 700 points) though I think the reroll 1's would almost always be more useful than the Ld 10 aura Aetaos provides. I'd almost consider running both of them but Dark Jealousy makes that a pretty poor plan. He's tempting but not sure if he's 700 points tempting.

Here's his datasheet for reference:


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 01:40:46


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Yes it does it says "Heretic Astartes data sheets from pages 16 to 42" that means only Heretic Astartes units can have that Faction keyword, if bloodletters can't have WE Faction keyword then your army cant be WE it can ONLY be Chaos.


You didn't finish the quote. It says those units can replace the Legion keyword with the World Eater's keyword. Where does it say that a World Eater's army can only have units in it with the World Eater's keyword to receive certain benefits?

Same thing with the Thousand Sons or any of the Space Marine ones. They specify which units you can replace the keyword on with "Space Wolves" or whatever you want but they don't say anywhere that all the models in the detachment have to have that same keyword. That would be contrary to what GW has been saying about bringing an imperial army with Dark Angels and Astra Militarum in a single force.

It's already been taken to YMDC here too (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728848.page)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 02:53:01


Post by: TzeentchNet


I own Aetaos and will be using his model as a generic Lord of Change for right now. He's inferior to Magnus in a Thousand Sons army IMO due to lack of synergy, and that Dark Jealousy rule is problematic because you really should be leveraging multiple Daemon Princes at the points level you would pull out this guy.

His staff is really nice, but compared to some of the Hellforged vehicles ....


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 03:17:53


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Arachnofiend wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Aetaos for a Thousand Sons army? He's definitely a better model on his own than Magnus (as he should be at 700 points) though I think the reroll 1's would almost always be more useful than the Ld 10 aura Aetaos provides. I'd almost consider running both of them but Dark Jealousy makes that a pretty poor plan. He's tempting but not sure if he's 700 points tempting.

Here's his datasheet for reference:


You cant bring him with a TS army as he is not on the list but with a Tzzenth or Chaos Army. From the looks of him he would be much better off in a Tzeentch Daemon Army since he get the heralds give him a bump in Strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:

You didn't finish the quote. It says those units can replace the Legion keyword with the World Eater's keyword. Where does it say that a World Eater's army can only have units in it with the World Eater's keyword to receive certain benefits?

Same thing with the Thousand Sons or any of the Space Marine ones. They specify which units you can replace the keyword on with "Space Wolves" or whatever you want but they don't say anywhere that all the models in the detachment have to have that same keyword. That would be contrary to what GW has been saying about bringing an imperial army with Dark Angels and Astra Militarum in a single force.

It's already been taken to YMDC here too (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728848.page)


It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 04:10:56


Post by: lessthanjeff


To your question, on page 47 it shows Khorne Berserkers as troops on the data sheet.

You are filling in lines that aren't there. The only statement on any of the pages for the various space marine and chaos space marine factions is that for specified units you replace some keywords with other ones. That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Thousand Sons, for example, states " if a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the 'Thousand Sons' keyword". Notice the significant difference that has over saying "if a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot be included in the army".

So for Rubric marines, we've replaced "Legion" with "Thousand Sons", but that doesn't remove his keyword "Chaos".

From the rulebook, the rules for a battle-forged army state "Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same faction. For example, a Space Marine Captain has the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' keywords, so belongs to both the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment, all other units in the Detachment must either be from the 'Imperium' Faction, or they must all be from the 'Adeptus Astartes' Faction." Emphasis here being on the word "either" as in our case we're relying on the keyword "Chaos" for building the detachment.

If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 04:23:11


Post by: TzeentchNet


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?

This is not complicated. You are free to house rule mono-faction Detachments, but that's not what the rules say or even intend. They will almost certainly have special Detachments later that reward having all models share the same <LEGION>, <SEPT>, <CHAPTER>, etc. but right now that's not the case (though you might look at Adeptus Mechanicus Canticles as a preview for how that might work). If you want to have a pure World Eaters force of nothing but WORLD EATERS Faction your choices are obviously limited.

Berserkers that choose WORLD EATERS for their <LEGION> are Troops per Berzerker Horde (p. 45 in the Chaos Index). That's it. That's all you have to do. No other model in your CHAOS army needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or even KHORNE to be Battle-forged and ready for Matched Play. See Army Faction (p. 214) and Battle-Forged Armies (p. 240) in the core rulebook. The (rather major) drawback of course being that you may not able to take advantage of the best CSM buffs if you don't share <LEGION>, whereas you could build an army with all your Rubrics and Berserkers being EVIL DUDES Faction and work better together at the expense of staying Elites and getting almost no synergy with Thousand Sons or World Eaters characters.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 06:09:32


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Oh so you get to just pick you faction, no limits, got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.


Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
From the rulebook, the rules for a battle-forged army state "Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same faction. For example, a Space Marine Captain has the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' keywords, so belongs to both the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment, all other units in the Detachment must either be from the 'Imperium' Faction, or they must all be from the 'Adeptus Astartes' Faction." Emphasis here being on the word "either" as in our case we're relying on the keyword "Chaos" for building the detachment.


That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.


No if you go with my "interpretation" you would and it would be an imperium army.

Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?

This is not complicated. You are free to house rule mono-faction Detachments, but that's not what the rules say or even intend. They will almost certainly have special Detachments later that reward having all models share the same <LEGION>, <SEPT>, <CHAPTER>, etc. but right now that's not the case (though you might look at Adeptus Mechanicus Canticles as a preview for how that might work). If you want to have a pure World Eaters force of nothing but WORLD EATERS Faction your choices are obviously limited.

Berserkers that choose WORLD EATERS for their <LEGION> are Troops per Berzerker Horde (p. 45 in the Chaos Index). That's it. That's all you have to do. No other model in your CHAOS army needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or even KHORNE to be Battle-forged and ready for Matched Play. See Army Faction (p. 214) and Battle-Forged Armies (p. 240) in the core rulebook. The (rather major) drawback of course being that you may not able to take advantage of the best CSM buffs if you don't share <LEGION>, whereas you could build an army with all your Rubrics and Berserkers being EVIL DUDES Faction and work better together at the expense of staying Elites and getting almost no synergy with Thousand Sons or World Eaters characters.


What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 07:08:57


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 09:39:43


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Arachnofiend wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).


Except you could just take A Chaos Lord with Khorne and World Eaters


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 10:08:57


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).


Except you could just take A Chaos Lord with Khorne and World Eaters

...And then your <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines won't benefit from that <World Eaters> Chaos Lord.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 10:26:49


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Clearly the wrong thread. Snip.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 12:36:29


Post by: lessthanjeff


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.


I don't know what you're quoting, but the quote from page 214 in the "choosing an army" passage of the matched play rules says "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have at least one faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS)". So again, the rule specifies that only one keyword must be in common, not all of them as you seem to be asserting. They all have Chaos, so the army faction rules spell out that you can combine the units in one army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.


Then that would counter GW's claims about army building because the rules for a Space Wolves army are the same as the ones for a Thousand Sons one. Only a "Space Wolves" army may include units like Blood Claws and you're saying it's not a Space Wolves army anymore it's an Imperium army. Therefore, you're denying that you can mix units like Blood Claws and Leman Russes in the same army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?


I already applied the quote for this one, but I'll reemphasize that the rule you are directing us to specifically says you only have to share at least one keyword for building a detachment. That's the restriction. All mentioned units do as they have keyword "Chaos".


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 16:27:54


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


So just bring a EC Chaos Lord as well, not like their expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.


I don't know what you're quoting, but the quote from page 214 in the "choosing an army" passage of the matched play rules says "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have at least one faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS)". So again, the rule specifies that only one keyword must be in common, not all of them as you seem to be asserting. They all have Chaos, so the army faction rules spell out that you can combine the units in one army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.


Then that would counter GW's claims about army building because the rules for a Space Wolves army are the same as the ones for a Thousand Sons one. Only a "Space Wolves" army may include units like Blood Claws and you're saying it's not a Space Wolves army anymore it's an Imperium army. Therefore, you're denying that you can mix units like Blood Claws and Leman Russes in the same army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?


I already applied the quote for this one, but I'll reemphasize that the rule you are directing us to specifically says you only have to share at least one keyword for building a detachment. That's the restriction. All mentioned units do as they have keyword "Chaos".


Ill respond here since this is not the place to have a discussion:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729174.page#9436669


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/18 16:38:49


Post by: lessthanjeff


Yes, that is what we're saying. You can bring them all in one detachment but you'll have to bring extra characters to share buffs etc. You're just bringing the dataslates that show them as troop options (and don't have any restrictions there about how they can be fielded).

It's the same thing all the other factions are doing to combine armies. The downside being that you'd end up with lots of different Legions that can't share auras.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/19 02:38:45


Post by: Arachnofiend


The downside will presumably be more significant when codices come out and there's some benefit to being a full EC army without any non-EC units, but for now it's a very small penalty.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/19 13:08:50


Post by: lessthanjeff


I got a couple games in with my Thousand Sons, so I'll share what I saw from my testing games.

The rubrics actually did pretty well for me. I did have a hard time getting them out of combat when they got charged with vehicles or huge infantry swarms, but I think I'll just have to get some more melee units to keep near them to bail them out. The daemon prince helped on that front but I think a couple maulerfiends or maybe even Helbrutes will be needed. Soulreaper cannons probably aren't needed, but even with just 2 warpflamers in each squad my opponents kept trying to charge from outside their range and ended up failing a lot of those as a result.

Scarab Occult were decent for dropping down and sniping a character or tying up back field units, but both games mine died within a single turn. Their shooting was great but I found their melee a little disappointing. Thinking about running one big unit of them and a Sorc in Term armor to teleport in with them and grant them an extra movement so they can easily multicharge a couple backfield units to give the rest of my army time to advance through heavy firepower.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/19 17:46:50


Post by: Tsol


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I got a couple games in with my Thousand Sons, so I'll share what I saw from my testing games.

The rubrics actually did pretty well for me. I did have a hard time getting them out of combat when they got charged with vehicles or huge infantry swarms, but I think I'll just have to get some more melee units to keep near them to bail them out. The daemon prince helped on that front but I think a couple maulerfiends or maybe even Helbrutes will be needed. Soulreaper cannons probably aren't needed, but even with just 2 warpflamers in each squad my opponents kept trying to charge from outside their range and ended up failing a lot of those as a result.

Scarab Occult were decent for dropping down and sniping a character or tying up back field units, but both games mine died within a single turn. Their shooting was great but I found their melee a little disappointing. Thinking about running one big unit of them and a Sorc in Term armor to teleport in with them and grant them an extra movement so they can easily multicharge a couple backfield units to give the rest of my army time to advance through heavy firepower.


Do you think two squads of Scarabs would be viable? My buddy plays 1ksuns and I'm thinking of starting up a small force of them (having played about 10 games against them) I'm digging their hardcore super heavy elite style army.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/19 22:46:09


Post by: DireTribe


Ok so looking forward to trying out 8th edition tzeentch goodness this coming weekend.

First impressions of 8th is that we dust buckets have gained a lot more flexibility in list composition at the expense of a constrained, but hugely streamlined (read less paper work), psychic phase.

Here is roughly what I'm planning on running. It is one detachment with a mix of sons and tzeentch daemons:

HQ
Ahriman on foot
CSM daemon prince with 2x Malefic Claws and wings
Tzeentch herald on a disc

Troops

2x 9 Rubrics (including aspiring sorcerer with a sword)
Both riding a rhino with havoc launcher
10 pink horrors

Elites
9 Scarab Occult Terminators
9 Flamers of Tzeentch

Fast Attack
9 Screamers

If BattleScribe is right this comes in at 2001 points with everyone packing stock gear unless otherwise specified.

Basic plan is screamers, herald, flamers and prince go haring off at the enemy as fast as possible. Herald will boon the screamers hoping for +1T and otherwise just dishing out his aura. Meanwhile rhinos also boot it at the enemy. Turn 2 rubrics get out and I then have the option of deepstriking the scarabs in support of either rubrics or daemons. If they pop up near rubrics then Ahriman can cast prescience and warp time on the SoTs. This means 36 2+ to hit inferno bolter rounds followed by fair odds for a charge to mop up stragglers for more 2+ to hit goodness. If by some miracle they are affected by the princes aura then that's 2+ re rolled...Similar but less effective shenanigans can be pulled by the CSM prince who can manage either prescience or warp time.

Meanwhile the horrors chill out on their deck chairs preferably near an objective.

The list has a good dose of smite (3 "proper" smiltings and 4 reduced effectiveness smitings).

It also relatively hardy with a fair number of hardy "all is dust" wounds and T4 4++ multi wound models.

I think I'm, going to have issues dealing with armour. Herald, prince and screamers together can do a fair number on tough targets I hope with lampreys bite, heralds strength aura and potentially an extra +1 S from boon (far from guaranteed as a result of both the random roll and need to pass a psychic test). Might also have issues with hordes but I'm hoping between flamers, buckets of screamer attacks and precise application of SoT inferno bolters I should put out a fair showing.

Oddly, I couldn't get the points to work out until dropping unit size down the sacred number...

Thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Will do my best to report back after the weekend.





Automatically Appended Next Post:


Do you think two squads of Scarabs would be viable? My buddy plays 1ksuns and I'm thinking of starting up a small force of them (having played about 10 games against them) I'm digging their hardcore super heavy elite style army.


Certainly I think 2 squads of scarabs could be good. It gets you an extra smite and a deny the witch. Personally, I would prefer to experiment with one larger squad to make the most of the pretty good Dark Hereticus powers of warp time and prescience. Still not played a game of 8th yet so all just theoryhammer from me at the moment.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/19 23:27:06


Post by: BoomWolf


The question is, how do the rubric fare in comparison to the scarab?

The two are really, REALLY similar, and on paper it seems to me like the scarab is slightly more than twice as powerful for slightly less tahn twice the price.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/20 00:07:43


Post by: DireTribe


5 SoTs are broadly equivalent points wise as 10 Rubrics (Rubrics are a touch cheaper). Firepower wise they are nearly the same (assuming inferno bolters ignoring other toys for now). SoT get more punch in cc with power weapons. Both have a mini sorcerer.

Where I think Rubrics pull slightly ahead of the SoT is (i) all is dust on SoT doesn't improve survivability against volume basic weapon fire (ii) high AP guns tend to also have high damage negating simultaneously all is dust AND the SoTs extra wound.

I don't think there is a huge amount in it and both units have their places. SoTs have the important advantage of lookin awesome too...


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/20 01:24:39


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


SOT maintain their 2+ save vs -1 ap no matter what, and while in cover vs -2 ap they still have a 2+ save, -3 ap puts them at a 4+ save and 3+ while in cover.

Compared to Rubrics who lose thier 2+ to -1 AP unless in cover, and end up with a 5+ vs -3 ap even while in cover.

SOT are much better for high AP weaponry since they will save 4 to the Rubrics 2 (out of 6) at AP -2 they save 5 to the Rubrics 3, and a CP can easily negate the 1 lost guy you might end up having casualty numbers like 1 per 12 wounds suffered for SOT. Where as a re-roll with the Rubrics might drop the number of lost models to 5 per 12 wounds suffered.

SOT are WAY more durable then Rubrics. Even when factoring in multi wound weapons. This is due to the order in which you roll the dice mattering. If your enemy rolls a 1 then a 3 then another 3 you lose 2 models, in comparison to rubrics who would lose 3 models no matter what. This is why you ALWAYS have your opponent roll damage 1 die at a time.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/20 12:26:21


Post by: KhazModan


I´m thinking about starting up a Thousands sons army, since I´m getting bored painting Necrons (lousy metallic pieces of crap). But I´m having trouble trying to figure out what I should start with.

I was thinking about 2 ten man squads of Rubric marines, and maybe a smaller group marines with flamers in a transport to get them into range.
Perhaps to groups of 10 Tzaangors to bubblewrap my precious marines. But what should I use to bust up the enemy tanks?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/20 12:51:24


Post by: lessthanjeff


I was saying I want to try the 10 man Scarab Occult unit because it makes it easier to hit them with powers like warp time or prescience and it makes it more valuable to burn 2 command points to interrupt with the 1 bigger unit.

Durability wise, my rubrics were the ones surviving to the end of the game because my terminators just became the targets of more autocannons and other multi damage weapons. One volley of autocannons (and some bad rolling even with a reroll burned) wiped 4 out of 5 of my terminators.

I found the rubrics drew less of the heavy gunfire and were less concerned with multi damage weapons which was nice.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/20 20:46:50


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


KhazModan wrote:
I´m thinking about starting up a Thousands sons army, since I´m getting bored painting Necrons (lousy metallic pieces of crap). But I´m having trouble trying to figure out what I should start with.

I was thinking about 2 ten man squads of Rubric marines, and maybe a smaller group marines with flamers in a transport to get them into range.
Perhaps to groups of 10 Tzaangors to bubblewrap my precious marines. But what should I use to bust up the enemy tanks?


Two Firebomb units will kill a tank in a turn.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 05:56:23


Post by: BoomWolf


Firebomb?
As in a rubric squad with flamers?

How are you planning to ever reach a tank with these? you move the transport up, the tank backs away. you only have 16+d6 inch threat range from when your transport stopped last turn, less if you think on the fact not everyone in the squad can be at the front, so more like 12+d6 inches.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 06:11:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I appreciate it may not be of much use to those who regularly attend tournaments, but the FW Chaos Index gives us some interesting options.

My choices, which I'll likely order Friday is a Xiphon (nippy, loadsa Dakka), and a Leviathan, with at least one Butcher Cannon Array, as that can inflict -2 Ld on enemy units, helping me to maximise Battleshock losses. And that's something I consider valuable given our armies tend to lack numbers.

May get a couple of spare Leviathan weapons, see what works best.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 06:49:58


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 BoomWolf wrote:
Firebomb?
As in a rubric squad with flamers?

How are you planning to ever reach a tank with these? you move the transport up, the tank backs away. you only have 16+d6 inch threat range from when your transport stopped last turn, less if you think on the fact not everyone in the squad can be at the front, so more like 12+d6 inches.


All flamers even the AS.

You could try to run him down, or have a unit in the Rhino, have the Rubrics start just to the side have the Rhino advance then the Rubrics. Turn 2 you dump the squad out have the rubrics advance towards the Rhino get in the Rhino then advances. You have now moved a squad of Rubrics 24" in a single move phase. Get the Rhino within 1 in of the tank you want to kill and theres nothing he can do about running even if he advances away he has to roll a 5+ and you have to roll a 1 for him to avoid the fire.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 08:19:02


Post by: Chrysis


Why are you running the Rubrics on foot the first turn? If they've all got flamers they aren't doing anything useful at range, and they don't gain anything by waiting to embark. Just start them in the Rhino and run it straight ahead full tilt.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 11:32:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


All flamers seems awfully expensive, and despite our resilience a 5 man unit is just a bit too squishy for my tastes?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 11:53:07


Post by: lessthanjeff


In my games so far it has been the daemon princes killing vehicles. Advanced them up behind tzaangors and used warp time to get them a second movement when they were close enough to make the charge. Tempted to try the same thing using screamers next time. The Princes get 7 attacks that pretty much all hit and then against most vehicles he averages 8 to 10 damage.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 12:12:20


Post by: the_scotsman


Has anyone else really been loving their bolter boys in 20 man squads? I've played 20 man double soulreaper in my last few games and it's great to have a big beefy target for Prescience and Warp Time. I'm playing matched and playing without Magnus so the only competitors for Warptime are my 20 Tzaangor screen and for prescience my laspred. I'm usually able to warptime up the field turn 1 and get off single tap shots at at least 1 valuable target across the table from me. Wounding on 5s vs T7 has done wonders for the power of Thousand Sons across the board IMO, and Ahriman chilling out behind the first line of rubrics also buffing the Tzaangors makes everyone quite durable.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 20:32:05


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Chrysis wrote:
Why are you running the Rubrics on foot the first turn? If they've all got flamers they aren't doing anything useful at range, and they don't gain anything by waiting to embark. Just start them in the Rhino and run it straight ahead full tilt.


Because the unit you put in the Rhino can be a 10 man squad with a Soul Reaper Cannon, you can dump them out and move them up 5"(8" total) then warptime them up another 5" (13" total). Which puts you in Rapid Fire range on turn 1. Move the Rhinos up to block off the more, effective fire. If you play your cards right you can have 2 units of Tzzangors 1 ten man unit of Rubrics and 4 Rhinos with 2 units of Tzzangors, and 4 units of 5 man Full Flamer Squads for 1535 points 13-15 inches forward from where they were.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 22:04:03


Post by: fwlr


Magnus


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also SOTs


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 22:17:06


Post by: BoomWolf


FW confirm (by mail) that we have access to the IA index, and that it will be properly noted in future prints.

Yay of achea pattern decimators taking the front lines?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/21 23:08:30


Post by: DaPino


So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 00:06:35


Post by: BoomWolf


DaPino wrote:
So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.


They can't move in the MOVEMENT phase.

Warp time is not in the movement phase, the restriction has already lifted.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 00:45:11


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BoomWolf wrote:
DaPino wrote:
So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.


They can't move in the MOVEMENT phase.

Warp time is not in the movement phase, the restriction has already lifted.

Are you sure about that? Warptime operates "as if it were its Movement phase", so presumably all of the restrictions imposed on the Movement phase would still apply.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 05:58:33


Post by: Captyn_Bob


And again, it doesn't say movement phase, it says turn.
Cannot move or advance for the rest of the turn.

Honestly I think the intent is warptime works, but I can see the rules issue. You need specific permissions to override specific restrictions.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 06:39:40


Post by: BoomWolf


Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 06:40:19


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)


Moving and charging are two very different actions...


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 07:42:21


Post by: DaPino


 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)


P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:
Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 11:12:41


Post by: Azoqu


DaPino wrote:
Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.


And then you realize to not a be an ass, and that that whole statement about not moving more is so that TFG doesn't move after dropping down, and has nothing to do with Warptime at all. Least that's how I'd run it because the intent is to stop people from dropping and than doing their movement, not to screw over over a spell (that ignores rules, because you can only move once a turn last I checked) and the swarmlord (he'd also be affected by this by not allowing trygons to advance when popping out).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 12:16:42


Post by: lessthanjeff


Interesting point. I missed that statement in the reinforcement rules. The question I guess would be does the warptime rule count override what the reinforcement rule says in the same way that some units can advance and charge despite the BRB saying a unit that advances cannot charge.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 14:39:36


Post by: Brian888


DaPino wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)


P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:
Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.


To take the other side, look at it this way. The general DS rule that you quoted effectively states that units set up via DS cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive BECAUSE their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield. That's fine, and makes perfect sense. Since most models only get one movement phase a turn, if their movement phase is essentially eaten-up via DS deployment, they can't then do anything else in that movement phase and effectively their movement for that turn is over. However, movement that occurs outside of the movement phase (i.e., charging), CAN still occur on the turn when a model deploys via DS, and that's important, because that's exactly what Warptime does. It allows a model to move in the psychic phase as if it was that model's normal movement phase.

The upshot of all this is that yes, a model deploying via DS cannot perform any other movement in that movement phase, but Warptime provides a second opportunity to move outside of the movement phase, so the model should be able to DS and then move via Warptime.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 16:19:54


Post by: DaPino


Brian888 wrote:
DaPino wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)


P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:
Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.


To take the other side, look at it this way. The general DS rule that you quoted effectively states that units set up via DS cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive BECAUSE their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield. That's fine, and makes perfect sense. Since most models only get one movement phase a turn, if their movement phase is essentially eaten-up via DS deployment, they can't then do anything else in that movement phase and effectively their movement for that turn is over. However, movement that occurs outside of the movement phase (i.e., charging), CAN still occur on the turn when a model deploys via DS, and that's important, because that's exactly what Warptime does. It allows a model to move in the psychic phase as if it was that model's normal movement phase.

The upshot of all this is that yes, a model deploying via DS cannot perform any other movement in that movement phase, but Warptime provides a second opportunity to move outside of the movement phase, so the model should be able to DS and then move via Warptime.


That's not what it says though. It says it cannot perform any other movement in that turn, not "that movement phase". Charging and moving are two very different things and explicit permission is given to charge.
Like, I would love thousand sons to not be gak on the table; They're my primary and favorite army. However, things don't work a certain way because you or I want them to. The rules say turn, not phase.


Azoqu wrote:
DaPino wrote:
Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.


And then you realize to not a be an ass, and that that whole statement about not moving more is so that TFG doesn't move after dropping down, and has nothing to do with Warptime at all. Least that's how I'd run it because the intent is to stop people from dropping and than doing their movement, not to screw over over a spell (that ignores rules, because you can only move once a turn last I checked) and the swarmlord (he'd also be affected by this by not allowing trygons to advance when popping out).


When following the rulebook makes you an ass.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 17:56:43


Post by: Brian888


DaPino wrote:
That's not what it says though. It says it cannot perform any other movement in that turn, not "that movement phase". Charging and moving are two very different things and explicit permission is given to charge.
Like, I would love thousand sons to not be gak on the table; They're my primary and favorite army. However, things don't work a certain way because you or I want them to. The rules say turn, not phase.


Well, let's look at the actual language. As you quoted, "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc)." The portion of that quote that I bolded is there to explain WHY such a unit normally cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive; otherwise, there's no reason for it to be there. What follows from that is the argument I made before:

1) A unit normally only gets one movement phase a turn in which it can move or advance.
2) A unit that deepstrikes uses its entire movement phase in order to finish that deepstrike, so normally it cannot move or advance that turn.
3) Such a unit CAN engage in types of movement that occur outside of the movement phase (such as charging).
4) Warptime allows a unit to move or advance outside of the movement phase, during the psychic phase.
5) Accordingly, a unit that deepstrikes and gets buffed with Warptime cannot move or advance during its actual movement phase per the deepstrike rules, but it CAN move or advance during the psychic phase.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 19:56:53


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Please take rules debates to YMDC forum.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 20:33:20


Post by: Solosam47


Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 20:58:56


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?


Tzaangors don't get the daemon keyword, however if you put your HQ's on a disc they count as daemons so there can be some synergy there. They lose access to their own buffs if you do that but getting the -1 accuracy penalty from the changeling is almost certainly worth it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 21:09:21


Post by: Solosam47


Arachnofiend wrote:
 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?


Tzaangors don't get the daemon keyword, however if you put your HQ's on a disc they count as daemons so there can be some synergy there. They lose access to their own buffs if you do that but getting the -1 accuracy penalty from the changeling is almost certainly worth it.


Hmmm interesting, they still give out their buff right? does it add the keyword or replace?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/22 21:13:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


Replace. Nearby Rubrics/other KSons infantry would get the buff from a Disc Exalted Sorcerer, but the Sorcerer himself would not.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/23 09:03:40


Post by: Anon052


So is a disc worth it for Ahriman and/or exalted sorcers? Its mobility vs the selfbuffs. I am not sure on what is better. Or is Ahriman better of on foot?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/23 12:35:28


Post by: lessthanjeff


I ran Ahriman on foot because I wasn't trying to rush him into combat or anything. I wanted him to stay safely with his Tzaangor and Rubric escorts. Saved the points since I saw no benefit in taking the disc (not even a toughness upgrade).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/23 13:24:12


Post by: Captyn_Bob


The benefit of the disc to me is keeping up with what you have cast warptime on, in case you need to cast it again.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/23 20:24:17


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?


There are some synergies but not many.

Sorcerers on Disks gain the Daemon Keyword and can gain benefits from Heralds and Changling.

there really isn't a whole lot of synergy.

Tzzangors are odd right now they are supposed to be a Chaff unit that Draw enemy fire but the fire they draw is not the fire you want them to draw. There useful against melee focused armies but against shooty armies you have stick them in Rhinos to get them up to the front line, and at that point your paying 14 PPM for what is a slighlty better in melee combat SM on a much worse frame.

As best I can tell they are supposed to be character hunters, but they lack the ability to get to Characters, and any real punch to actually take them down.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/24 17:59:42


Post by: Solosam47


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?


There are some synergies but not many.

Sorcerers on Disks gain the Daemon Keyword and can gain benefits from Heralds and Changling.

there really isn't a whole lot of synergy.

Tzzangors are odd right now they are supposed to be a Chaff unit that Draw enemy fire but the fire they draw is not the fire you want them to draw. There useful against melee focused armies but against shooty armies you have stick them in Rhinos to get them up to the front line, and at that point your paying 14 PPM for what is a slighlty better in melee combat SM on a much worse frame.

As best I can tell they are supposed to be character hunters, but they lack the ability to get to Characters, and any real punch to actually take them down.


Yeah I am getting alot of mixed signals on em from all over. Kinda kickin myself in the ass cause I used to run chaos daemons in 7th but before 8th was even leaked I traded them cause I got tired of spending the first 30 min of every game rolling for powers. Now though with 8th I am really tempted to get back with them but add some t-son goodness this time.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/24 21:20:01


Post by: TzeentchNet


I consider Tzaangor one of the best units available to Thousand Sons. They're basically super-cultists and I use them as such. For 2 points/model over a generic Chaos Cultist you get better WS, S, T, and Ld, AND they get an invul and THOUSAND SONS Faction. Ad they start with a FAR better set of weapons (sorry, autoguns are terrible for most jobs they are doing anyways). If you give them the alt weapon set the chainsword + autopistol > autopistol + brutal melee even before you get into the fact that the Tzaangor are strikingly better in CC even against non-Characters. All that for +2 points over a cultist. In my mind (at least, how I play) you need to bring a Dark Apostle or some other buffer to get even close to having Cultists match baseline Tzaangor.

This all assumes you're taking Chaos Cultists as objective campers or bubblewrap. I love Tzaangor for the looks but even I'm transitioning to Brimstones as my el-cheapo army of expendables. Tzaangor are good all-rounders in my opinion and I'll still use them in themed armies, but I am finding more and more I just need bodies that stick around under fire and chainswords rather than outright killing anyone.

(If you don't mind working with Khorne, Brimstones and Berserkers working together are DIRTY by the way.)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/25 00:05:10


Post by: Alpha


So in reading all 5 pages, is the general consensus that Tsons are not competitive any longer? At least until a new rule book comes out.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/25 00:59:23


Post by: TzeentchNet


Unless you are hellbent on every single unit having Thousand Sons Faction they are great. They have some of the best Legion-specific units (so far, we'll see what Death Guard get), good synergy with both daemon engines and daemons, and all their major drawbacks from 7th are gone.

Are they "competitive" in the sense that they have some units that are absurdly undercosted and that can be spammed? No. But that tier is what, five or six units in the entire game?

And Thousand Sons look fantastic on the table, which never hurts


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/25 03:50:55


Post by: Arachnofiend


I think you should definitely expect to run a little Tzeentch (and maybe the new Renegade snipers, we'll have to see how those pan out) but there's certainly enough good in the faction that you can run enough Thousand Sons to call it a Thousand Sons army. SOT's and Rubrics are both very good and Magnus is one of if not the best LOW's in the game (as far as ones that can be reasonably taken in a 2k point game goes).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/25 08:03:40


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I'm fairly happy I can use my Ammarara as marauders snipers. Just need to make some more models to be the ones without sniper rifles..


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/25 16:32:34


Post by: DireTribe


DireTribe wrote:
Ok so looking forward to trying out 8th edition tzeentch goodness this coming weekend.

First impressions of 8th is that we dust buckets have gained a lot more flexibility in list composition at the expense of a constrained, but hugely streamlined (read less paper work), psychic phase.

Here is roughly what I'm planning on running. It is one detachment with a mix of sons and tzeentch daemons:

HQ
Ahriman on foot
CSM daemon prince with 2x Malefic Claws and wings
Tzeentch herald on a disc

Troops

2x 9 Rubrics (including aspiring sorcerer with a sword)
Both riding a rhino with havoc launcher
10 pink horrors

Elites
9 Scarab Occult Terminators
9 Flamers of Tzeentch

Fast Attack
9 Screamers

If BattleScribe is right this comes in at 2001 points with everyone packing stock gear unless otherwise specified.

Basic plan is screamers, herald, flamers and prince go haring off at the enemy as fast as possible. Herald will boon the screamers hoping for +1T and otherwise just dishing out his aura. Meanwhile rhinos also boot it at the enemy. Turn 2 rubrics get out and I then have the option of deepstriking the scarabs in support of either rubrics or daemons. If they pop up near rubrics then Ahriman can cast prescience and warp time on the SoTs. This means 36 2+ to hit inferno bolter rounds followed by fair odds for a charge to mop up stragglers for more 2+ to hit goodness. If by some miracle they are affected by the princes aura then that's 2+ re rolled...Similar but less effective shenanigans can be pulled by the CSM prince who can manage either prescience or warp time.

Meanwhile the horrors chill out on their deck chairs preferably near an objective.

The list has a good dose of smite (3 "proper" smiltings and 4 reduced effectiveness smitings).

It also relatively hardy with a fair number of hardy "all is dust" wounds and T4 4++ multi wound models.

I think I'm, going to have issues dealing with armour. Herald, prince and screamers together can do a fair number on tough targets I hope with lampreys bite, heralds strength aura and potentially an extra +1 S from boon (far from guaranteed as a result of both the random roll and need to pass a psychic test). Might also have issues with hordes but I'm hoping between flamers, buckets of screamer attacks and precise application of SoT inferno bolters I should put out a fair showing.

Oddly, I couldn't get the points to work out until dropping unit size down the sacred number...

Thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Will do my best to report back after the weekend.






So got a few games in with this list and variants of it over the weekend. All in all I was pleased with its performance and bagged a couple of wins.

The daemon brigade (flamers and screamers) tended to get wasted pretty early on but bought time for Rubrics and daemon price to get close. Scarabs dropping in thigh prescience and warp time were devastating. Rubrics were rarely targeted and did good work all game long. All in all fast tzeentch daemons and and inferno bolts get work done.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 01:34:24


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 Solosam47 wrote:
Yeah I am getting alot of mixed signals on em from all over. Kinda kickin myself in the ass cause I used to run chaos daemons in 7th but before 8th was even leaked I traded them cause I got tired of spending the first 30 min of every game rolling for powers. Now though with 8th I am really tempted to get back with them but add some t-son goodness this time.


The TS units wouldn't do too well but the HQ slots with wings/disks would do well. S7 attacks from the Exalted Sorcerers on disks hitting on 2s, DP Would get S8 attacks with Talons which would make them shred Tanks getting 7.7 wounds per turn between melee and psy attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
I consider Tzaangor one of the best units available to Thousand Sons. They're basically super-cultists and I use them as such. For 2 points/model over a generic Chaos Cultist you get better WS, S, T, and Ld, AND they get an invul and THOUSAND SONS Faction. Ad they start with a FAR better set of weapons (sorry, autoguns are terrible for most jobs they are doing anyways). If you give them the alt weapon set the chainsword + autopistol > autopistol + brutal melee even before you get into the fact that the Tzaangor are strikingly better in CC even against non-Characters. All that for +2 points over a cultist. In my mind (at least, how I play) you need to bring a Dark Apostle or some other buffer to get even close to having Cultists match baseline Tzaangor.

This all assumes you're taking Chaos Cultists as objective campers or bubblewrap. I love Tzaangor for the looks but even I'm transitioning to Brimstones as my el-cheapo army of expendables. Tzaangor are good all-rounders in my opinion and I'll still use them in themed armies, but I am finding more and more I just need bodies that stick around under fire and chainswords rather than outright killing anyone.

(If you don't mind working with Khorne, Brimstones and Berserkers working together are DIRTY by the way.)


Tzzangors are not the best unit even if you narrow the options to things down to only infintry units. SOT are probably the best unit, depending on what metritcs you use. Tzzangors are not nearly as good as you are presenting them. They are too expensive and dont draw the fire that Rubrics/SOT need drawn. Keep in mind the whole point of a chaff unit is to draw fire so your real heavy hitters can do thier work.

They pay a lot of points for an invul save that is pretty bad, and dont have the speed necessary to make them a good melee unit. They are slightly less expensive CSM with a much worse save. Which causes them to die exceedlying fast to non AP D1 weaponry which is the exact thing you want your enemy to shoot at your Rubrics.

Thier LD is marginally better then Cultists and they have no way to make it better where as the cultists have access to DA which can buff thier attacks and thier LD Tzzangors will just get shot down to 3 guus and then the rest will likely run off the board.

Lastly notice how quickly your switching out your Tzzangors with brimstone horrors. Which have half the T and 1 better invul save, if Tzzangors were as great as you claim them to be you would not be swaping them out so quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpha wrote:
So in reading all 5 pages, is the general consensus that Tsons are not competitive any longer? At least until a new rule book comes out.


Using Rubrics as a distraction, or throwing in some SOT to add some punch to your army can be very effective, but as an Army TS are lacking a lot right now.

Too much over lap in points; spells, DTW, and Str 4 AP -2 weaponry. On top of that thier need for Rhinos is an anchor like no other. Once people figure out they can just destroy your Rhinos and your army is pretty much neutered dont expect to win any games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
Unless you are hellbent on every single unit having Thousand Sons Faction they are great. They have some of the best Legion-specific units (so far, we'll see what Death Guard get), good synergy with both daemon engines and daemons


We know what Death Guard are getting. Plague Marines are more durable then Rubrics have access to better weapons with are better in CC and are cheaper with thier special weapons.

Plague Marines are WAY better then anything TS have access to right now, hyper versitile can take on hordes, or elite units, and have better support options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the best Army I have come up with so far.

4 units of Rubrics w/2 flamers and Hand Flamer
2 units of SOT with Soul Reaper Cannon
2 units of Tzzangors
2 Rhinos
2 Exalted Sorcerers on Disks
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince with Warp Bolter

The idea is to swap between using the Rhinos to move the most important units up. Against shooty armies you want the Tzzangors in the Rhinos to get them close for the turn 2 charge. Melee armies you put the Rubrics in the Rhinos to prevent the Rubrics from getting charged, and use the Tzzangors to prevent the Rhinos from being surrounded and losing whole units. SOT Can be used to reinforce flanks or be used to punch holes in the enemy line to allow Tzzangors to move in for Charcter Kills.

The DP is your quick response to deep striking units. With him smiting and the warp bolter and getting 7 attacks you can take down a 5 man squad of Terminators in 1 turn.

The weak points of this army are the Rhinos, and Enemy Armor. You really need those Rhinos to stay alive for at least a turn or two. Enemy armor is dealt with by the Exalted Sorcerers zipping over the enemy line and tying them up in combat to prevent shooting. Giving the rest of your army a turn or to to punch holes in the enemy line so you can get some smites on the damn things and kill them.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 05:37:26


Post by: Arachnofiend


To be fair, brimstones are almost certainly OP right now and need a points adjustment so I wouldn't fault the Tzaangors too much for being inferior.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 05:43:22


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Arachnofiend wrote:
To be fair, brimstones are almost certainly OP right now and need a points adjustment so I wouldn't fault the Tzaangors too much for being inferior.


There really not. They are wounded so easily its laughable. Lasguns wound on a 3+ boltguns wound on a 2+ killing them is easy and since people dont pay points for pink horrors they don't get models back if they roll a one. At that point all you have to do is 6 wounds to a squad and the rest will skitter off the board.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 05:46:49


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Check again, they are T3


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 06:07:30


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Check again, they are T3


Ugh so many changes yeah they are T3 but thier S1 which means in CC they only wound on 6s.

Probably should have thier save changed though


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 06:19:26


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Yeah you really are relying on smite for damage output.
But that's actually pretty decent point for point anyway.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/27 07:13:27


Post by: TzeentchNet


Brimstones are very durable. That's really what makes them incredible for their cost. T3, 4++, and can benefit from the Changeling (who is disgustingly awesome himself) if he's in 9". They can fire off Smite, Deny, and are a whopping 2 points each. They're not killing anything in close combat, but so what? That's what countercharge units are for.

Tzaangors are still great, and if they mod the Brimstones back I go for my meatshields (though if they leave their powers alone Brimstones may still be useful for MSU Smite spam).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 01:30:59


Post by: BoomWolf


Well, just found the answer in the decimator or contemptor question.
The contemptor's "containment breach" rule is just too devastating for us.

Sure, might not trigger, but when it does, it wrecks havoc on our forces.

Decimator could still blow up, but its not QUITE as nasty or us, and he's quicker, and does not get slown down when damaged-so throwing him far away to blow up there is more reliable.
Still not sure on the best loadout. my instinct says one claw and a soulberner petard for 149 points of pure nastiness, but not sure.

We can also technically pick up zhupor, akros and necrosis if we want for some odd reason, I personally find it amusing.


Moving on to daemons.

How do you guys find the blue scribes and tzeentch heralds?
How about non-brime horrors? they seem a bit overpriced. (and brimes rather underpriced)
Do they add any value to our TS forces?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 03:05:28


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Blue scribes are Meh not good not bad. Changling is GTFO good -1 to hit for everything within 9. Heralds combined with CSM DP will probably make people cry. S8 attacks on a durable frame.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 04:01:05


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BoomWolf wrote:
We can also technically pick up zhupor, akros and necrosis if we want for some odd reason, I personally find it amusing.

Not sure what you mean by this? All three belong to specific, non-Tzeentch Legions. Not sure why a Thousand Sons army would want them, there's largely no benefit to it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 07:19:03


Post by: Real News


I don't know how people are interpreting the rules as saying "if all units in your army are from the Thousand Sons chapter, then the battlefield role of rubric marines is Troops instead of Elites." That just isn't what the rules say.

RAW are perfectly clear: "The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons legion", and "The battlefield role of Thousand Sons rubric marines is Troops instead of Elites."

If you want to talk about RAI, there's one explanatory sentence on p10 that says "not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all Chaos Space Marine armies". But this contradicts the actual rules. All units in the Chaos index book have the "Chaos" faction keyword, therefore every unit in the book can be part of any detachment in which all units have the "Chaos" faction keyword.

I can't find a single rule anywhere that says "Thousand Sons Heretic Astartes units can only be included in an army where all Heretic Astartes units are from the Thousand Sons legion" or anything equivalent to that.

Furthermore I can't find a single rule that applies to or deals with "Thousand Sons armies" or armies consisting fully of any specific legion.

8th edition discourages the mixing and matching of legions/chapters/regiments/clans by offering synergy bonuses, not by forbidding mixing outright. So as stupid as it sounds, there's no RAW reason you can't stick Death Guard plague marines and Thousand Sons rubric marines in the same detachment and call them both troops. The army as a whole would neither be Death Guard nor Thousand Sons, but since there are no benefits to having a Thousand Sons or Death Guard army it doesn't matter.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 08:36:05


Post by: Arachnofiend


I mean, that's true, and there could be merit to including DG troops in an otherwise TS army, my question was more as to why you would take HQ's who buff the wrong army since the buff is usually the high point of an HQ, and the other parts of a datasheet have to be very potent to justify taking it without receiving any benefit from the buffs (IE Magnus).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 09:18:45


Post by: BoomWolf


Well, exalted sorcerers are outright bonkers compared to regular sorcerers, so that's a reason for people playing non-TS to want them.

And we could use a plaguecaster, as he has a different spell list, just avoid the buff power if you don't have any DG units.

If only we could take a psyker of each legion like SM can, and have a whole range of different spells.
But alas, it was not meant to be. we got underpriced exalted sorcerers to serve as nasty beatsticks, and when our actual caster (ahriman/magnus) bites the dust, they take over casting stuff.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 11:22:31


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Thanks for pointing that out.. its.. crazy, why are exalted sorcerors cheaper ?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 14:05:55


Post by: BoomWolf


To give you a reason to bother with more than one?
I guess. Sorcerers are pretty horrible with rule of one...


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 14:11:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


Exalted Sorcerers kinda need to be comparable cost to a regular, less good Sorcerer or else we really get screwed on not getting Chaos Lords/Dark Apostles. I'm jealous of the former in a lot of situations, a daemon prince is a major expense for a back line vehicle buffer.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 16:18:08


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, exalted sorcerers are outright bonkers compared to regular sorcerers, so that's a reason for people playing non-TS to want them.


There really just not. Exalted Sorcerers are terrible they have weapons, they pay extra for 2 denies that they don't need, they kinda have to be put on disks to keep up with the rest of the army. They were pretty good before the swap to 8th, but now there borderline trash pay a bunch of points for crap you don't need, they lack any kind of punch and they lack the ability to buy anything with punch, not to mention the terrible aura you pay for that most of the time will do almost nothing to make your army better.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 16:51:09


Post by: Arachnofiend


The Force Staff isn't terrible; wounding T4 on a 3+ and T3 on a 2+ means you can hurt a lot of infantry, and many monstrous creatures are T6. The Exalted isn't going to beat any dedicated melee units but considering that it's cheaper than a Sorcerer with budget weapons I'd say it's pretty good value.

The aura is pretty garbage though, I will agree with that.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 17:02:20


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Irritating that he doesn't benefit from his own aura when on a disc.
I think the sorcerors pretty decent in combat for its points.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/28 19:36:24


Post by: BoomWolf


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, exalted sorcerers are outright bonkers compared to regular sorcerers, so that's a reason for people playing non-TS to want them.


There really just not. Exalted Sorcerers are terrible they have weapons, they pay extra for 2 denies that they don't need, they kinda have to be put on disks to keep up with the rest of the army. They were pretty good before the swap to 8th, but now there borderline trash pay a bunch of points for crap you don't need, they lack any kind of punch and they lack the ability to buy anything with punch, not to mention the terrible aura you pay for that most of the time will do almost nothing to make your army better.


How not?
Exalted have better WS, BS, W and A, but cost the same as a regular sorcerer.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 01:44:11


Post by: TzeentchNet


Exalted Sorcerers are flat-out better than standard Sorcerers in every way except for two: you want Sorcerers on a Bike (who can't be Thousand Sons, annoyingly) or you REALLY need that jump pack deep strike.

Heck, he's even cheaper with standard weapon loadouts and does everything the Sorcerer does plus has the better stats, invul save, and aura buff for Thousand Sons..

Baseline Exalted: 101 pts
Baseline Sorcerer: 102 pts

They also don't get two denies, are you using the right book?

That said, I still don't think they are worth taking when we have Magnus and Ahriman around and a limited breadth of Hereticus powers we can cast each turn.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 02:53:14


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Arachnofiend wrote:
The Force Staff isn't terrible; wounding T4 on a 3+ and T3 on a 2+ means you can hurt a lot of infantry, and many monstrous creatures are T6. The Exalted isn't going to beat any dedicated melee units but considering that it's cheaper than a Sorcerer with budget weapons I'd say it's pretty good value.

The aura is pretty garbage though, I will agree with that.


The staff performs worse in most areas over the sword which is cheaper. The Axe is best for killing Charcters and MCs but its also the most expensive.

The Staff out performs the sword in killing Guardsman that's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote:How not?
Exalted have better WS, BS, W and A, but cost the same as a regular sorcerer.


Better WS BS and A are only better if you have the equipment that allows you to have an impact. BS 2+ with a bolt pistol isn't good, if you can give that BS 2+ something worth shooting then it becomes good.

1 higher wound means hes around slightly longer to not do damage.

TzeentchNet wrote:Exalted Sorcerers are flat-out better than standard Sorcerers in every way except for two: you want Sorcerers on a Bike (who can't be Thousand Sons, annoyingly) or you REALLY need that jump pack deep strike.

Heck, he's even cheaper with standard weapon loadouts and does everything the Sorcerer does plus has the better stats, invul save, and aura buff for Thousand Sons..

Baseline Exalted: 101 pts
Baseline Sorcerer: 102 pts

They also don't get two denies, are you using the right book?

That said, I still don't think they are worth taking when we have Magnus and Ahriman around and a limited breadth of Hereticus powers we can cast each turn.


Your right he only gets one deny.

Yes hes 1 point cheaper and has much worse weapons and no options to change the weapons. Basically hes a sorcerer that wont be able to do anything but cast spells which are massivly restricted.

Id rather pay 50 more point for a model that can do what he does and do thing in the shooting phase and the fight phase.





All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 04:06:51


Post by: TzeentchNet


I don't believe that a single (expensive) combi weapon option outweighs the Sorcerer's numerous stat deficits and lack of TS synergy. It's not even a fair comparison, really. Moving on...

The verbiage of Forge Worlds response to complaints about the lack of notation regarding DG and TS in the Forces of Chaos book leads me to believe that they'll allow a blanket permission. If so, it was nice knowing you Maulerfiend ... but you're getting swapped for a Hellforged Contemptor day 1. Has anyone else tried running a Thousand Sons daemon machine pack yet? It looks like a lot of fun, if a bit easy to swamp with bodies.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 05:53:32


Post by: Captyn_Bob


On paper tzeentch decimators with soulburner petards sound amazing.
Mixed in with the changling for durability or even a DP of tzeentch, the damage output is huge.
OFC no-one owns decimators
For pure TS the contemptors sound cool. I have 3 assembled now. Some synergy with the Hellwright, but not sure it's worth it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 07:37:43


Post by: Arachnofiend


The Soulburner Petard makes me paranoid with how you can never avoid the Gets Hot. It can even happen when you're not using the Petard! My current list is using a dakka decimator with two butcher cannons set up next to a tri-gun forgefiend and bolter rapier battery, all backed by a daemon prince. I'll let you know how it goes when I can actually wrangle a game for it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 08:15:27


Post by: Captyn_Bob


So you take one wound from gets hot then then one wound it balances out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't even want to know why you think it could happen when not using the petard.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 08:49:57


Post by: DaPino


Butcher cannon seems like a great weapon this edition.

You could synergize with chaos spawn/Raptors to give a unit -3 Ld (+1 if the butcher cannon already killed something). That means that even Ld9 units can lose an extra model over a single lost model. But you're probably going to make sure that it loses more than 1.

Say there's a 10-man tactical squad in cover (Ld 8). You have a Deredeo w/ butcher cannon array, twin heavy bolter and Greater havoc launcher (which is what I'd go for) shoot at it. On average that's going to be 4 dead. Now take a Rubric squad w/ soulreaper and shoot it. Non rapid-fire, they're going to kill another 2 guys. So now we've killed 6 guys and their leadership is reduced to 6. Any number rolled on that dice is going to result in extra casualties so there's a 50% chance the squad is wiped.
Now okay, tactical marines in cover might not be the best of targets but this is really going to work great against any infantry unit w/ 2 or less wounds.

I get that the problem w/ 1K sons generally is anti-armour and not anti-infantry, but it's good to have many options regardless.
On the topic of anti-armour tough. I'm looking at a Hellforged predator w/ C-beam cannon and 2x lascannons. It's a smidge cheaper than a regular predator and while it's actually a bit worse than a laspred against vehicles, it provides more flexibility since the C-beam is not half bad against infantry units.

Does need some careful positioning though because of the containment breach rules.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 10:25:43


Post by: BoomWolf


That's why I prefer petard/claw decimator.
Cheaper, shaves MW off big nasties, moves fast, hits hard and doesn't blow up massivly in out face.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 12:36:18


Post by: DaPino


True, and it's not really a tactics concern but I don't think the model particularly fits in the aesthetic of the army.

I'd be tempted to buy one of the osirian contemptors and running it as a decimator.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 15:35:01


Post by: BoomWolf


No, the Orisin is for Contemptors.

Decimators are made with Achea Castellax.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 19:16:12


Post by: Arachnofiend


Wait are you telling me that there's a psychic Thousand Sons dreadnought in Horus Heresy and instead of porting that over they gave us a dozen Imperium models that don't even have proper Chaos equivalents


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 19:50:36


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I've already asked them to give the Osrion rules. You should too.
Peer pressurreeeee


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/29 21:45:26


Post by: DaPino


Arachnofiend wrote:
Wait are you telling me that there's a psychic Thousand Sons dreadnought in Horus Heresy and instead of porting that over they gave us a dozen Imperium models that don't even have proper Chaos equivalents


The answer to this, sadly, is yes. Thousand sons recently got some amazing HH minis.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 00:10:13


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


TzeentchNet wrote:
I don't believe that a single (expensive) combi weapon option outweighs the Sorcerer's numerous stat deficits and lack of TS synergy.


It's not just a single combi weapon you can give him a melee weapon which is better then the staff as well. Not to mention the upgrades the regular Sorc can take like the Terminator upgrade which allows him to DS and puts him on a much more durable frame and gives him an extra wound. The "synergy" comes only from the aura, which as best I can tell is border line useless with its 6% increase in saves. Look at the numbers I'm not going to go over them again but it's really bad, so unless you're getting that are for free which I doubt it's really not worth it.

There is a reason why Exalted Sorcerers are cheap er then regular Sorcerers, and it's not because GW decided to be super generous to Thousand Sons


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 01:21:16


Post by: BoomWolf


The sorcerer "upgrades" cost you, a lot.
As for a better weapon-why? the staff gives you what you need-some S6. you want swords? the scarab brings plenty.

Axes could be desirable, but to take down a T6 thing, you want that S6.

Truth remains that the exalted is cheaper than an identically equipped sorcerer, while FAR better.
If you claim the equipment itself is not good, and GW priced him lower under that assumption-well, you enter the realm of "what if", and asking if GW thought the equipment aint good, why didn't they make the equipment cheaper to begin with.


Yea, I may have opted for an axe if I could, sure.
But I'll never take a sorcerer over an exalted, that's just madness.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 03:21:56


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 BoomWolf wrote:
The sorcerer "upgrades" cost you, a lot.
As for a better weapon-why? the staff gives you what you need-some S6. you want swords? the scarab brings plenty.

Axes could be desirable, but to take down a T6 thing, you want that S6.

Truth remains that the exalted is cheaper than an identically equipped sorcerer, while FAR better.
If you claim the equipment itself is not good, and GW priced him lower under that assumption-well, you enter the realm of "what if", and asking if GW thought the equipment aint good, why didn't they make the equipment cheaper to begin with.


Yea, I may have opted for an axe if I could, sure.
But I'll never take a sorcerer over an exalted, that's just madness.


So what makes the Str 6 so good? As I have pointed out it does worse vs everything except Guardsman and T8+ models, and thats compared to the CHEAPEST force weapon you can take. The Axe out performs it everywhere, and is 2 points more that is a nothing upgrade.

Before the switch to 8th. Exalted Sorcerers were pretty good. They still had a crap loadout but the spells they casted needed BS to hit so they were worth it not to mention the Silver Tower orbital strike they got. Now, they have none of those benefits, have a better WS and BS more wounds and more Attacks. But are for some reason cheaper then Exalted Sorcerers. According to you either Exalted Sorcerers are under priced, Sorcerers are overpriced.

Some of them do some cost the exact same like disks. So you can put them on disks with combi-meltas thats 20 points more then what a Exalted sorc costs but now hes worth a gak in the shooting phase. In fact 2 of those can do about 10 wounds to a T7 3+ save model in a single turn, with most of that damage coming from things that can't. Wait dont want to kill tanks? Take a combi flamer and a lighting claw, now your clearing out 10 GEQ a turn so you dont get stuck wasting mortal wounds on dirt cheap models.

Agian there is a reason they are cheaper, and it not because GW threw TS a bone. Its because they are worse.




All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 06:20:10


Post by: TzeentchNet


You can't take a lightning claw and combi weapon on a Sorcerer.

As far as the petard, RAW you take a mortal wound in ANY phase for any attack you roll 1 on. Doesn't matter if you use the petard or not. It doesn't state "with this weapon" in that clause. Same reason you don't need to use a chainsword to get the extra chainsword attack. Doubt its intentional, but that's what it says.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 13:36:34


Post by: BoomWolf


If anyone actually ties to claim that, feel free to hit him with an oversized noodle, its the most absurd interpretation ever.

Unless you claim a marine with a plasma gun that punches someone kills himself on a roll of a 1? because it has the same kind of wording.



 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

So what makes the Str 6 so good? As I have pointed out it does worse vs everything except Guardsman and T8+ models, and thats compared to the CHEAPEST force weapon you can take. The Axe out performs it everywhere, and is 2 points more that is a nothing upgrade.


Got a mathammer table for this or something?
I find it hard to believe a sword beats a staff against T6


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 16:42:12


Post by: fwlr


'rubrics are hard to kill and have no other redeeming qualities'

Really?

My 20 man rubric squad took out around 50 csm models in the last TS game I played. They are our troops and they are nice and fluffy

Stop being salty


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/06/30 21:26:58


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

So what makes the Str 6 so good? As I have pointed out it does worse vs everything except Guardsman and T8+ models, and thats compared to the CHEAPEST force weapon you can take. The Axe out performs it everywhere, and is 2 points more that is a nothing upgrade.


Got a mathammer table for this or something?
I find it hard to believe a sword beats a staff against T6


According to my calculations the exalted actually beats a sorcerer with an axe at every T, using a 3+ save as the baseline. If you factor in invulnerable saves then the sorcerer is just an embarrassment. Turns out better WS and more attacks is pretty valuable!

The ability to take a combi-melta is a real advantage but considering that makes the axe sorcerer WAY more expensive I'm pretty sure the exalted is fine.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 01:01:51


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


TzeentchNet wrote:
You can't take a lightning claw and combi weapon on a Sorcerer.

As far as the petard, RAW you take a mortal wound in ANY phase for any attack you roll 1 on. Doesn't matter if you use the petard or not. It doesn't state "with this weapon" in that clause. Same reason you don't need to use a chainsword to get the extra chainsword attack. Doubt its intentional, but that's what it says.


I was thinking a force axe I'm not sure why I wrote lightning claws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fwlr wrote:
'rubrics are hard to kill and have no other redeeming qualities'

Really?

My 20 man rubric squad took out around 50 csm models in the last TS game I played. They are our troops and they are nice and fluffy

Stop being salty


Yes really. I'm not interested in stories about how people are really bad at playing the game. I could use half that many space chaos Space Marines and kill twice as many rubrics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

So what makes the Str 6 so good? As I have pointed out it does worse vs everything except Guardsman and T8+ models, and thats compared to the CHEAPEST force weapon you can take. The Axe out performs it everywhere, and is 2 points more that is a nothing upgrade.


Got a mathammer table for this or something?
I find it hard to believe a sword beats a staff against T6


According to my calculations the exalted actually beats a sorcerer with an axe at every T, using a 3+ save as the baseline. If you factor in invulnerable saves then the sorcerer is just an embarrassment. Turns out better WS and more attacks is pretty valuable!

The ability to take a combi-melta is a real advantage but considering that makes the axe sorcerer WAY more expensive I'm pretty sure the exalted is fine.


20 points is not way more expensive. It's a little more expensive but at the same time they can put a lot more wounds on the bigger targets that you need to be able to handle because the rest of the army can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
If anyone actually ties to claim that, feel free to hit him with an oversized noodle, its the most absurd interpretation ever.

Unless you claim a marine with a plasma gun that punches someone kills himself on a roll of a 1? because it has the same kind of wording.


Agreed.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

So what makes the Str 6 so good? As I have pointed out it does worse vs everything except Guardsman and T8+ models, and thats compared to the CHEAPEST force weapon you can take. The Axe out performs it everywhere, and is 2 points more that is a nothing upgrade.


Got a mathammer table for this or something?
I find it hard to believe a sword beats a staff against T6


I someone else did it it would somewhere on the forums I'll look for it but I can't promise I'll find it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 02:20:46


Post by: TzeentchNet


25 CSM are going to wipe out 40 Rubrics? How, exactly. (More to the point, why are you even using CSM?)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 02:54:12


Post by: jcd386


I think the main strength of the Rubrics is that they effectively force the enemy to focus anti-tank (damage 2+ weapons) on them in order to effectively kill them.

A 2+ save vs small arms and normal close combat attacks and a 4++ with likely rerolls of 1s vs regular plasma and power weapons either forces the enemy to overcharge plasma at them, or focus autocannons, missiles, melta, or las at them, which is typically not worth it for killing a single marine, and they still get to use their 5+ and reroll 1s with the HQs around them.

Plus their guns are pretty good at killing infantry and light tanks. My marines seemed to mostly melt vs their shooting, and even t7 3+ razorbacks didn't like getting wounded on 5s and making 5+ saves vs bolters.

I played a game against 30 or so Rubrics and 5 Scarabs, and they were incredibly hard to grind through. I don't think my opponent's list was ideal (he had something like three 10 man rubrics, 20 or so Tzaangors, a Predator, two hellbrutes, Ahriman (sic?), and 2 exalted sorcerers all footslogging), but it was a pretty close game and I consider myself fairly competitive, though still obviously learning this edition.

The Tzaangors were fairly useless in the game we played, as they die easy and morale ate at them pretty heavily, and I managed to kill the predator and hellbrutes early with my SW shooting list, but the Rubrics and Scarabs were so hard to kill. Also having to deal with 3 baby smites and 3 big smites + the other 3 powers was pretty annoying as I only had 1 deny per turn in my list.

I think if he had his guys in rhinos to speed up their advance, and other hard to kill threats to force me to spend my anti-tank shooting on, he would have fared much better and perhaps even won the game.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 03:48:04


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


TzeentchNet wrote:
25 CSM are going to wipe out 40 Rubrics? How, exactly. (More to the point, why are you even using CSM?)


Plasma Rifles.

As an example 176 points of guardsman with plasma rifles can kill 260 points worth of Rubrics per turn.

I would bring the chaos Space Marines in units of 5 give Combi plasma to the aspiring champion and a plasma gun to one of the regular guys. that's 20 plasma gun shots bring a chaos Lord and give him a plasma gun too. You're paying less points way less points you can kill 8 Rubric Marines a turn with that. Five turns 40 Rubric Marines.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 05:28:14


Post by: TzeentchNet


OK so a situation that won't ever happen. Got it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 06:32:14


Post by: Arachnofiend


I was under the impression that CSM never brings actual chaos marines because Havocs are just the same thing but better.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 07:43:28


Post by: BoomWolf


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
25 CSM are going to wipe out 40 Rubrics? How, exactly. (More to the point, why are you even using CSM?)


Plasma Rifles.

As an example 176 points of guardsman with plasma rifles can kill 260 points worth of Rubrics per turn.

I would bring the chaos Space Marines in units of 5 give Combi plasma to the aspiring champion and a plasma gun to one of the regular guys. that's 20 plasma gun shots bring a chaos Lord and give him a plasma gun too. You're paying less points way less points you can kill 8 Rubric Marines a turn with that. Five turns 40 Rubric Marines.


Why exactly arn't the rubrics shooting back these 5 turns?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 14:59:01


Post by: Engio


Rubrics only have 2+ if the enemy shooting is AP0. Most armies sporting AP0 shots put them out in high volume, and most actual armies have plenty of heavy bolter / assault cannon fire.

Khornezerkers, Razorbacks, Stormtalons and Stormravens, Harlequin Troupes with caresses, Havoc Squads, Devastator Squads ...

The issue is that fielding a bunch of pseudo terminators (which is what rubrics basically are at 5" move 5++ and sometimes having a 2+ save) isn't good. Grey Knights are borderline and their actual terminator units come with much better gear.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 17:15:16


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
25 CSM are going to wipe out 40 Rubrics? How, exactly. (More to the point, why are you even using CSM?)


Plasma Rifles.

As an example 176 points of guardsman with plasma rifles can kill 260 points worth of Rubrics per turn.

I would bring the chaos Space Marines in units of 5 give Combi plasma to the aspiring champion and a plasma gun to one of the regular guys. that's 20 plasma gun shots bring a chaos Lord and give him a plasma gun too. You're paying less points way less points you can kill 8 Rubric Marines a turn with that. Five turns 40 Rubric Marines.


Why exactly arn't the rubrics shooting back these 5 turns?


sure they are but there killing guys with bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
OK so a situation that won't ever happen. Got it.


Yes you have decided and so it is decreed it will never happen because you said so.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 19:43:06


Post by: BoomWolf


 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
25 CSM are going to wipe out 40 Rubrics? How, exactly. (More to the point, why are you even using CSM?)


Plasma Rifles.

As an example 176 points of guardsman with plasma rifles can kill 260 points worth of Rubrics per turn.

I would bring the chaos Space Marines in units of 5 give Combi plasma to the aspiring champion and a plasma gun to one of the regular guys. that's 20 plasma gun shots bring a chaos Lord and give him a plasma gun too. You're paying less points way less points you can kill 8 Rubric Marines a turn with that. Five turns 40 Rubric Marines.


Why exactly arn't the rubrics shooting back these 5 turns?


sure they are but there killing guys with bolters.


Ap -2 bolters though
I'd say its a safe bet they are netting kills.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 20:57:01


Post by: Vryce


Engio wrote:
Rubrics only have 2+ if the enemy shooting is AP0. Most armies sporting AP0 shots put them out in high volume, and most actual armies have plenty of heavy bolter / assault cannon fire.

Khornezerkers, Razorbacks, Stormtalons and Stormravens, Harlequin Troupes with caresses, Havoc Squads, Devastator Squads ...

The issue is that fielding a bunch of pseudo terminators (which is what rubrics basically are at 5" move 5++ and sometimes having a 2+ save) isn't good. Grey Knights are borderline and their actual terminator units come with much better gear.


Incorrect. Rubrics and Scarab Occult increase their save by +1 against weapons that only deal 1 Damage. AP doesn't matter, it can be AP-10, and Rubrics/SoT will still get +1 to their save, so long as each shot only does 1 Damage.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 21:38:59


Post by: BoomWolf


What he meant is that your save isn't a 2+ if they got an AP value.

Though that's a dumbass "point" to make, because that applies to every 2+ save in the game (and 3+, and so forth)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 22:23:40


Post by: fwlr


Engio wrote:
Rubrics only have 2+ if the enemy shooting is AP0. Most armies sporting AP0 shots put them out in high volume, and most actual armies have plenty of heavy bolter / assault cannon fire.

Khornezerkers, Razorbacks, Stormtalons and Stormravens, Harlequin Troupes with caresses, Havoc Squads, Devastator Squads ...

The issue is that fielding a bunch of pseudo terminators (which is what rubrics basically are at 5" move 5++ and sometimes having a 2+ save) isn't good. Grey Knights are borderline and their actual terminator units come with much better gear.


Then spread your hate elsewhere then. Rubrics are troops. They may not be fantastic in-game but they have awesome models and fluff. If your going to point out how trash rubrics are let me point out base csm.

This thread is about how to win with TS not about 'let's take a dump on rubrics'

They're also actually pretty good you'll find when you field them.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/01 22:31:38


Post by: DaPino


 BoomWolf wrote:
What he meant is that your save isn't a 2+ if they got an AP value.

Though that's a dumbass "point" to make, because that applies to every 2+ save in the game (and 3+, and so forth)


Exactly!
Not having a 2+ does not mean that the +1 on the save is not there.

Had another game today, tried some different tactics and actually became convinced that 1K sons are not trash-tier. My conclusion is that they're best run as a mix between Rubrics, SoT, vehicles and a dash of screening units.
I ran the following in a 150 points game:

Daemon prince w/ axe (no wings)
Exalted sorcerer
Exalted sorcerer

Stock Scarab occult termies

Min squad rubrics w/ 2 flamers
Min squad rubrics w/ 2 flamers
10x Cultist
10x Cultist

3x Spawn

Heldrake w/ baleflamer

Rhino (2x combi-bolter)
Rhino (2x combi-bolter)

We played "The relic". My opponent was playing BA.

I had the Spawn stick with the Daemon prince. First turn I warpsped the spawn, 2nd turn I warpsped the DP himself and it worked out surprisingly well but I imagine things would've turned sour if I failed one of those warpspeeds. I reckon wings are still a must on the DPs, if only to fall back out of combat.
The cultists advanced in order to screen the Rhinos while the Heldrake went full speed across the table to assault a razorback in order to draw some fire. They performed their duty as cannon fodder splendidly.

Rhinos are surprisingly effective at getting things across the table. My opponent wasn't able to deal with both of them before they got my rubrics into position to use their flamers.
I noticed that I had some problems with his 2 dreadnoughts (altough eventually I did manage to kill one of them with some psychic dakka). I'm definitely thinking about adding 1 to 2 laspreds into my army to play at 1850-2000pts. In this list, I probably would have replaced the Heldrake with a laspred. Heldrakes seem pretty meh for their points cost. They offer very little other than the ability to zip over the battlefield (altough that is pretty good if you're playing tactical objectives).

Tomorrow I have another game where I'm going to try something entirely different.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 00:01:02


Post by: Caederes


Engio wrote:
The issue is that fielding a bunch of pseudo terminators (which is what rubrics basically are at 5" move 5++ and sometimes having a 2+ save) isn't good. Grey Knights are borderline and their actual terminator units come with much better gear.


Except Grey Knight Terminators are over twice as expensive as Rubric Marines per model. Try again.

Rubric Marines are actually pretty damn good. The new to-wound chart, lower cost per unit, new AP system and changes to cover make them far deadlier than they have been in so long. Flat out ignoring 3+ armour saves did jack-all in the previous system thanks to easily accessed cover, now the -2 AP means that even 6+ armoured hordes in cover get no save now whereas Marines are still unlikely to survive your shooting. If you play a proper combined arms type of list, people won't want to shoot their anti-tank weapons at your Rubrics and will instead ideally save them for Scarab Occult and tanks, leaving the Rubrics to get +1 to their saves against most enemy shooting. Mine have done well at gunning down most things and do a great job of holding the line. For a TROOPS choice, I'm more than happy with that.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 08:09:17


Post by: Arachnofiend


Yeah, the inferno boltguns are exceptionally strong in this edition. I've had success ripping through a variety of targets with them, either the Rubric or Scarab Occult varieties.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 09:33:24


Post by: YoungSolomon


Has anyone tried running a Contemptor as support for Thousand Sons? I'm thinking of ordering one and using it in place of a helbrute to soak up fire for my rubrics and deal with tanks or monstrous creatures.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 16:55:29


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


 BoomWolf wrote:
Ap -2 bolters though
I'd say its a safe bet they are netting kills.


Most definitly. Problem is your not going to net very many due to lack of volume.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 17:15:45


Post by: DaPino


 YoungSolomon wrote:
Has anyone tried running a Contemptor as support for Thousand Sons? I'm thinking of ordering one and using it in place of a helbrute to soak up fire for my rubrics and deal with tanks or monstrous creatures.


I have, but I came to the conclusion that deredeo's are probably far better, so I'm getting myself one of those.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 17:17:21


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Page 118 – Units, Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch
Change the points per model value to read ‘146’.

Sorry guys


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 18:50:20


Post by: DaPino


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Page 118 – Units, Exalted Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch
Change the points per model value to read ‘146’.

Sorry guys


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 20:04:30


Post by: BoomWolf


The regular exalted took a 26 points increase as well.

Guess there is no reason to take them now. get one ahriman, and nothing else. (or magnus), he's a cheaper, exalted who casts better.

At least until next FAQ when I'm sure they'll nerf them as well.

Its like GW dosen't understand being a psyker is hardly worth any points when you got multiples because of the rule of one.



Also, ANY rule creating a new unit costs reinforcements point unless otherwise stated.
so magnus nerf, and bolt of change is just a worse smite.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 21:01:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


Eh, Bolt of Change is a smite you can cast after you've already used smite.

The Exalted nerf is seriously inexcusable. It's a useless model now.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/02 21:08:33


Post by: TzeentchNet


Aye Exalted got nerfed to dust.

I thought they were going to clarify specifically that the Chaos Spawn conversion was free, not basically remove it as a rule for Matched Play, hah!

On the plus side the Forge World FAQ is coming (probably with the Legion note) and the CD Daemon Prince is now more useful as he can't be targeted if screened. And All Is Dust was clarified for the two people on the planet who didn't think it applied to invuls, I guess?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/03 06:20:09


Post by: Tsol


Damn the newest FAQ really hit 1ksunz sorcerors hard, I don't think I'm going to tell my buddy yet. I'll let him get a few more games with them in, before he has to gone to terms that GW really hates him. He was so happy to finally be playing them. I won't ever forget what he said when he finished reading the index "My sorcerors are actually worth taking now! I'm actually going to take these guys!" Not anymore he won't....

On the lighter side of things, Rubric marines got a buff. All is dust stacks with their invulnerable save now. Giving them a Stock 2+/4++ (unless multidamage as per usual), which makes the Sorceror/deamon prince combo all the more alluring for those sweet rerolls of 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope, he just texted me... He knows. And is very sad. Though he says he still is going to use them.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/03 07:02:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


Rubrics weren't buffed, they were clarified. Most people were already running All Is Dust as working on invulns.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/03 18:14:43


Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


They were always going to get a price hike. There was no way around it. I never liked them much anyways. More of tge same when it came to TS which need a bit more diversity when it comes to roles units can fill. More S4 AP-2 shooting is not whats needed for TS they need reliable anti tank and reliable anti horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tsol wrote:
On the lighter side of things, Rubric marines got a buff. All is dust stacks with their invulnerable save now. Giving them a Stock 2+/4++ (unless multidamage as per usual), which makes the Sorceror/deamon prince combo all the more alluring for those sweet rerolls of 1.


That wasnt a buff it was a clarification that honestly wasnt needed. It specifically says add 1 to save rolls. A buff would be something like having them rerolling 1s and 2s on invul saves which would probably be a bit much.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/03 19:43:10


Post by: nintura


lookin to expand on my 1k sons army, possibly adding some daemons. Is the Change Host a good addition for it's cost? Really wanting a greater daemon as my HQ but I haven't even touched on how to build a 1k sons army in this edition.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/04 18:48:22


Post by: DireTribe


I've played a mix sons/tzeentch daemons list and it was a lot of fun. Screamers and flamers do a good job of drawing fire while your Rubrics and scarabs get in to position. Horrors provide a cheap unit for objective camping freeing up Rubrics to go and take care of business.

I've played the Lord of Change in my mono tzeentch list. He got blown off the table in a couple of turns without achieving much. I would be reluctant to try him out in a sons list as we are hard pressed to squeeze everything we want in to a list and the big bird is pricey. To be honest; if I was considering a point investment in the scale of a LoC I would go the extra and just bring Magnus. He cast better and smashes face in close combat better.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/04 19:51:03


Post by: Arachnofiend


Yeah, the LoC seems fairly weak. If you wanna run a big bird I think your only real option is to go all the way and splurge for Aetaos (not to imply Aetaos is a "only if you really want to" option, he's an amazing model for 700 points).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/05 11:10:01


Post by: BoomWolf


Are any horrors other than brimes worth bothering with?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/05 11:47:22


Post by: nintura


We tend to play casual around here lol. Bringing Magnus might bring some hate. However, I do have Big M painted though, might be a good chance to teach people to bring big guns.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/05 20:40:00


Post by: DireTribe


Re horrors - I've used 3x 10 pink horrors with enough points left for summoning to full split the lot (works out at 22 points per pink horror total) in my mono tzeentch daemons. With changeling around it gives you an almost unkillable mess of bodies. Few opponents want to put the rss needed to take them out in to them.

So they usually bag objectives pop off the odd smite and chip away with their assault 2 s3 gun.

Not stellar. But useful fun and fluffy.

I sometimes bring a mixed pink and brimstone unit with my sons with enough points left over to split the pinks. Mostly for frustrating opponents and helping them bag objectives more robustly. Probably not objectively better than just bring one blue and nine brim but let's me feel like they are doing something rather than just being a min/max unit. That warm fuzzy feeling might not be important to you ;-)


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/05 20:52:59


Post by: BoomWolf


But... Why not have just more horrors to begin with?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/06 16:39:51


Post by: fwlr


Is everybody remembering to use separate detachments for TS and tzeentch daemons? I sure hope so...........


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/06 17:30:04


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 fwlr wrote:
Is everybody remembering to use separate detachments for TS and tzeentch daemons? I sure hope so...........


Why would you need to do That? There are no faction specific detachments yet.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/06 18:24:37


Post by: DireTribe


Re horror splitting: I like it because if gives flexibility. If you have an awkward number of points left over (say 50-100 or so) then keeping these for splitting is preferable to just adding more horrors as you can apply those points to the units that are taking damage. The extra horrors are always where you need them to be.

If folks ignore the horrors then you can always use those points to summon something else. My favourite is the 5 or less pl choices like exalted flamers etc.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/06 20:56:23


Post by: Arachnofiend


Captyn_Bob wrote:
 fwlr wrote:
Is everybody remembering to use separate detachments for TS and tzeentch daemons? I sure hope so...........


Why would you need to do That? There are no faction specific detachments yet.

Indeed, a detachment with both Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons included simply has the <Tzeentch> tag, and there's currently no penalty for doing that.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/07 00:33:26


Post by: kaintxu


Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/07 02:16:15


Post by: Arachnofiend


kaintxu wrote:
Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

They all seem to be good, the question primarily being how many points you want to invest in it. A pretty good escalating scale of power-per-point, though I would probably avoid the deredeo.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/07 07:33:21


Post by: KhazModan


Do you guys think that this list could work in casual games?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731385.page


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/07 09:41:53


Post by: kaintxu


Arachnofiend wrote:
kaintxu wrote:
Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

They all seem to be good, the question primarily being how many points you want to invest in it. A pretty good escalating scale of power-per-point, though I would probably avoid the deredeo.


Why would you avoid the Deredeo?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/07 20:22:33


Post by: Arachnofiend


I think the Deredeo is in a weird place where if you need that much dakka you might as well go all the way for a Leviathan, or if you're on a budget you should just stick with a Contemptor. There are probably others who would disagree, though.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/08 23:12:35


Post by: fwlr


Arachnofiend wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
 fwlr wrote:
Is everybody remembering to use separate detachments for TS and tzeentch daemons? I sure hope so...........


Why would you need to do That? There are no faction specific detachments yet.

Indeed, a detachment with both Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons included simply has the <Tzeentch> tag, and there's currently no penalty for doing that.


... In the part before the TS specific model rules, it has a list of the models you can use in a TS detachment. Nowhere is there anything saying about demons. If I'm wrong, tell me why and where that rule is.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/08 23:33:28


Post by: Arachnofiend


That section doesn't say anything about detachments; it simply specifies that only the Heretic Astartes models listed in the box can have the <Thousand Sons> keyword. Tzeentch Daemons you add to your army won't have the <Thousand Sons> keyword either, but they do share the <Tzeentch> keyword (and <Chaos> for that matter) so they can legally be played in the same detachment.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 15:54:51


Post by: wex1234


 fwlr wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
 fwlr wrote:
Is everybody remembering to use separate detachments for TS and tzeentch daemons? I sure hope so...........


Why would you need to do That? There are no faction specific detachments yet.

Indeed, a detachment with both Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons included simply has the <Tzeentch> tag, and there's currently no penalty for doing that.


... In the part before the TS specific model rules, it has a list of the models you can use in a TS detachment. Nowhere is there anything saying about demons. If I'm wrong, tell me why and where that rule is.


When building detachments, the TS specific section of the index means that the listed models are the only ones that can have the TS legion keyword. No TS Warp Talons, chosen, possessed etc.

With that said, when you build your detachment, you can be as unspecific as you want as long as all models included in the list share at least 1 keyword. As the poster above me stated, if you want horrors with TS, your detachment will be tzeentch. If you want to play with raptors, you will be heretic astartes (with a different legion keyword for the raptors). If you want to play sisters of battle with IG and SM, you will play imperium. Now, this may not be the most efficient tactic in the whole of 40k as most character auras only work with more specific keywords like ahrimans allowing TS units to reroll 1's for invulns. Also, as codex's are released, I would be willing to bet that new detachments will be available that reward you with playing ONLY TS units or that can only take TS units so this may not be as popular.

For specific locations - Index p49: there is no mention of only having TS in a detachment. instead it is the rules for playing with the TS legion keyword and the limits to whom can have it. In fact, the first sentance is "the heretic astartes datasheets listed tot eh right can be from the thousand sons legion."

In the BRB, pg 240. read the bubble on factions. Specifically, check out the last sentence that serves as an example

In essence, you asked for specifics where it states that you are wrong but instead, there is nothing stating you are right! there is no rule stating that only TS units (or any other specific legion, chapter, etc.) can be in a detachment and there is a lot saying that you can mix anything as long as they all share at least one faction keyword


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 18:30:11


Post by: Arachnofiend


So we got screwed by an FAQ again: FW FAQ indicates that we can't take a Hellwright (less important) or a hellforged rapier (really fething important).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 18:40:52


Post by: Benlisted


Arachnofiend wrote:
So we got screwed by an FAQ again: FW FAQ indicates that we can't take a Hellwright (less important) or a hellforged rapier (really fething important).


Frankly I'm just happy that the vast majority of FW units can be taken! Will be especially nice once a codex comes out, I expect.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 19:28:16


Post by: TzeentchNet


No Rapiers sort of sucks (and is a random unit to be called out).

Nevertheless, a pack of buffed Thousand Son daemon engines running with Magnus is now a thing


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 22:57:49


Post by: wex1234


If I had to guess, the rapier is denied because the unit uses traditional chaos SM which aren't usable per the TS legion rules. It's lame but at least its consistent.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/09 23:45:08


Post by: Arachnofiend


FAQ did open up the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer for us to use; it might be our next option with 4 3 damage lascannon shots at 185 points (only 5 more than a Decimator with 2 butcher cannons which was the other thing I was looking at).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 02:20:44


Post by: RedBarron


So with errata of the FW Imperial Armour for chaos does this mean that I can take FW units in as Thousand Sons, that meet the keyword requirement?

I am new to the game and do not know how FW units come into play with normal 40k units. I've picked Thousand Sons as my army to build and really like the Dreadnoughts from FW.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 08:47:55


Post by: kaintxu


So, if playing a TS list with Magnus, SOT, which antitank options do you guys think could do the job in case you come against a spam razorback/dreadnought list, or a Imperial guard parking lot?

Also, any thoughts on the giant spawn? with the update he gets a 4++


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 08:59:19


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Magnus will need to be able to get into CC. His cc abilities will eat tanks and armor alike. The issue is how he can get into CC before he gets focus fired on. I think wrap time is almost a must. You also have to worry about any fodder that might be used as a bubble wrap.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 15:54:20


Post by: Captyn_Bob


So what weapon loadouts should I aim for for my 3 TS Contemptors?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 17:11:48


Post by: BoomWolf


Deathclaw and butcher cannon seems solid enough.

Especially if you run some spawn to really take advantage of the LD debuff.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/10 18:29:46


Post by: nintura


So how do I make my hellbrute look all tzeentch or 1k sons like? And what load out sounds fun?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/13 15:12:55


Post by: XT-1984


Get the old metal chaos dreadnought.

Missile launcher and twin lascannon or two scourges for 11 attacks.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/13 15:20:39


Post by: nintura


Building a Daemon Prince for a 55 PL event today. Want to build it thematically but also efficiently. Dual claws? Or should I take an axe or sword?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/13 16:02:14


Post by: kaintxu


dual claws always. Same overall damage to sword but cheaper and gives you the change to kill more infantry


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/13 19:47:02


Post by: Arachnofiend


Cost on the sword and axe definitely needs to come down, they can't possibly compete with the claws.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 12:48:58


Post by: nintura


Well, I had my first ever 8th edition game last night vs Grey Knights. 55 PL (he had 56 but was new to the game in general). Def took some time to learn the new system so the game took about an hour and a half. So some backstory:

I talked to the organizer (one of them, this was for a new store opening in town) and he mentioned this was for new people to learn 8th edition and I should probably leave Magnus at home (I mentioned I probably didn't have 55 PL of models for my 1k Sons as I just sold 4k points in Necrons and about 3.5k points in Eldar) so I bought some Rubrics and a Daemon Prince and assembled them before the event. I get in to play and the guy across from me has a quad lascannon Landraider. I'm already thinking Im going to lose. Well then we roll for mission and it's 2 objectives apiece. But then we roll and it gets knocked down to one objective, but it's worth 6 VP. Of course it happens to be on his side of the board.... I'm thinking there's no way I can win.

Well I learned my first lesson. Anything can be killed quickly enough. Including my own.

So we setup, I have:
- 9 Rubrics + Sorc with 2x Warp Flamer and Soulreaper
- 4 Rubrics + Sorc with flame pistol and warp flamer
- DP with wings and dual claws
- Scarab Occult with Reaper in deep strike
- Exalted Sorc on Disc

He has some commander in termi armor, looking all badass. 2 squads of 5 infantry, a squad of purifiers in the raider, a raider, and 2 deep striking squads.

My first turn, I move around some, shoot up some Knights (we still do that quite well thank you), and I learn the value of Smite. Even Smite-Light is brutal when you get that d3 and learn it actually hits the unit so it gets spread around. I of course immediately perils round 1 on the DP.

His turn, he shoots some and kills a Rubric. He moves his raider on top of the objective.

Round 2 I warp time the DP up. Smite more, shoot a lot more. DP assaults his HQ and just....well, making a mess of things would not do it justice. I hit all 7 times, 3 of which grant me bonus attacks and those hit. I wound 9 of them, he fails 7 for 14 wounds to his HQ.

He gets justice though. He withdraws the last guy in that squad (the HQ was an IC) and opens up with the raider. Hits 3 times with the cannons, I save 2. He rolls a 6 for damage..... ouch. Needless to say I lost the DP with the rest of the raiders shooting.

Rest of the game is pretty much me advancing and shooting and here I learn the effectiveness of having Warpflamers in the squads. He tried to assault me once. Once. He promptly lost 4 members of his 5 member squad and didn't feel like assaulting with the other one.

Eventually I bring down the raider with a combination of smite, smite, more smite, and finally smite. For the win. After peril'ing again.




All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 14:36:21


Post by: Captyn_Bob


So just thinking aloud on what aura buffs TS have access to , to see what optimisation is there. (No lords, phfah)

All psykers (one per turn per army :-/ )
Buff Heretic Astartes
Warptime - speed (3")
Prescience +1 to hit (The 18")

Magnus
Buff Thousand Sons (8")
Reroll 1s to hit &
Reroll invulnerable saves of 1

Ahriman (and Exalte d Sorcerors, who are blatantly inferior)
Buff Thousand Sons Infantry
Reroll invulnerable saves of 1(6")

So already Magnus buffs outperform ahriman and exalted a
Sorcerors. (Sorcerors give no unique buffs, but are at least cheaper. No lords)

Other related unit buffs

All tzeentch daemon psykers
Boon of change
Buff Tzeentch Daemon (18")
Random stat boost.

The Changling
Buff Tzeentch Daemon (9")
-1 to hit.

Herald of tzeentch
Buff Tzeentch Daemon (6")
+ 1 Strength.

Deredeo hellfire veil
Buff Legion chaos (6" wholly within)
5+ invulnerable


Some thoughts

Magnus is good for all legion units for a variety of reasons. Seeing him used with just daemons is wasteful lol.

Deredeo could improve the spread of invulnerable saves, which can get reroll 1s.

Good overlap with the changling. A lot of daemon and tzeentch units, can also benefit from heretic astartes and thousand sons buffs.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 14:51:22


Post by: BoomWolf


Deredei doesn't actually buff anything-as everything already has 5++ in our army, or better.
Except tazzangors geIss, but I aint gonna invest in giving an invul to these.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 14:57:36


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 BoomWolf wrote:
Deredei doesn't actually buff anything-as everything already has 5++ in our army, or better.
Except tazzangors geIss, but I aint gonna invest in giving an invul to these.

Well I was thinking Vindicator/ predator / land raider / FW tanks and fire raptor .
Units that can benefit for the bonuses to hit from presience or Magnus And benefit from enhanced durability from refillable invuns.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 15:57:12


Post by: ochobits


 nintura wrote:


Eventually I bring down the raider with a combination of smite, smite, more smite, and finally smite. For the win. After peril'ing again.



Been there. Done that.

Smite is the only anti-vehicles weapon my Tzeentch army can rely on. Still need to try the Scarab Occult once they are properly converted, those combi-inferno bolter can perform well on light vehicles.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 16:51:37


Post by: nintura


 ochobits wrote:
 nintura wrote:


Eventually I bring down the raider with a combination of smite, smite, more smite, and finally smite. For the win. After peril'ing again.



Been there. Done that.

Smite is the only anti-vehicles weapon my Tzeentch army can rely on. Still need to try the Scarab Occult once they are properly converted, those combi-inferno bolter can perform well on light vehicles.


They do? Why's that? I mean, I guess 4 shots apiece right?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/14 18:51:12


Post by: Azoqu


 nintura wrote:
 ochobits wrote:
 nintura wrote:


Eventually I bring down the raider with a combination of smite, smite, more smite, and finally smite. For the win. After peril'ing again.



Been there. Done that.

Smite is the only anti-vehicles weapon my Tzeentch army can rely on. Still need to try the Scarab Occult once they are properly converted, those combi-inferno bolter can perform well on light vehicles.


They do? Why's that? I mean, I guess 4 shots apiece right?


I have yet to try my scarabs, but I'd assume it's because at 4 shots math hammer says you'd probably wound T5-7 once on average per guy. So a squad of 5 would do 5 rend -2 wounds to a vehicle. Charging would also be nice against smaller vehicles as well because -3 negates most saves and only T8+ makes it not worth their time. You only have 2 attacks in melee but if your opponent doesn't move out of combat (eg. to try to stop you from being able to shoot), you get another 2 attacks so averages say 5 wounds at -3 after charging in addition to the 5 at -2 for shooting.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/15 11:07:25


Post by: Gibs55


What are your thoughts on the Forgefiend?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/15 22:12:18


Post by: MinscS2


Rhinos for Rubricae Squads, yay or nay?
Used to be a solid "yay" in 7th, but now in 8th I'm unsure. What are your thoughts?

Gibs55 wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Forgefiend?


Depends on the loadout.
I'd never run it with Ectoplasma (not like we need more -AP), but it's pretty decent Anti-Tank/MC with 2x Hades Autocannons.
It's also tankier than a Predator and better in close combat - altough it also costs more.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/15 23:04:35


Post by: Arachnofiend


I'd say a definite yes for rubric rhinos. Even as tanky as they are being 24" rapid fire shooting doesn't really work footslogging, you need a good way to move up the board unless you're running with assault weapons (aka noise marines).


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/16 01:47:32


Post by: kaintxu


Are you guys having success with Magnus?

I was looking into getting one myself, but not too sure.

While I know he is a beast with magic and melé, what worries me is getting shoot off the tsble before doing anything


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/16 02:28:59


Post by: Arachnofiend


I've had both tremendous success and horrible failure with him; you're right that getting shot off the table is a huge problem. If you want to run him I'd take a Heldrake as well, since we're otherwise lacking in other ways to support him in melee.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/17 06:09:47


Post by: KhazModan


So, finally I had my first games of 8th this weekend. Played 2 games (1500 pts) against Imperial guard. Damn they can bring alot of bodies to the table. But Rubrics can be really duriable agianst the small fire. Sadly it was not enough.

But my lessons from the games were, ditch the tanks and bring more smite to the table. So now I´m toying around with a 1500 pts list with 4 exalted sorcerers and Ahriman.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/17 08:12:50


Post by: DaPino


 BoomWolf wrote:
Deredei doesn't actually buff anything-as everything already has 5++ in our army, or better.
Except tazzangors geIss, but I aint gonna invest in giving an invul to these.


As of the FAQ, the hellfire veil is not a mandatory option so it gets rid of a useless rule and makes the dread 35 points cheaper.
Definitely worth looking into now.

 nintura wrote:
Well, I had my first ever 8th edition game last night vs Grey Knights. 55 PL (he had 56 but was new to the game in general). Def took some time to learn the new system so the game took about an hour and a half. So some backstory:

I talked to the organizer (one of them, this was for a new store opening in town) and he mentioned this was for new people to learn 8th edition and I should probably leave Magnus at home (I mentioned I probably didn't have 55 PL of models for my 1k Sons as I just sold 4k points in Necrons and about 3.5k points in Eldar) so I bought some Rubrics and a Daemon Prince and assembled them before the event. I get in to play and the guy across from me has a quad lascannon Landraider. I'm already thinking Im going to lose. Well then we roll for mission and it's 2 objectives apiece. But then we roll and it gets knocked down to one objective, but it's worth 6 VP. Of course it happens to be on his side of the board.... I'm thinking there's no way I can win.

Well I learned my first lesson. Anything can be killed quickly enough. Including my own.

So we setup, I have:
- 9 Rubrics + Sorc with 2x Warp Flamer and Soulreaper
- 4 Rubrics + Sorc with flame pistol and warp flamer
- DP with wings and dual claws
- Scarab Occult with Reaper in deep strike
- Exalted Sorc on Disc

He has some commander in termi armor, looking all badass. 2 squads of 5 infantry, a squad of purifiers in the raider, a raider, and 2 deep striking squads.

My first turn, I move around some, shoot up some Knights (we still do that quite well thank you), and I learn the value of Smite. Even Smite-Light is brutal when you get that d3 and learn it actually hits the unit so it gets spread around. I of course immediately perils round 1 on the DP.

His turn, he shoots some and kills a Rubric. He moves his raider on top of the objective.

Round 2 I warp time the DP up. Smite more, shoot a lot more. DP assaults his HQ and just....well, making a mess of things would not do it justice. I hit all 7 times, 3 of which grant me bonus attacks and those hit. I wound 9 of them, he fails 7 for 14 wounds to his HQ.

He gets justice though. He withdraws the last guy in that squad (the HQ was an IC) and opens up with the raider. Hits 3 times with the cannons, I save 2. He rolls a 6 for damage..... ouch. Needless to say I lost the DP with the rest of the raiders shooting.

Rest of the game is pretty much me advancing and shooting and here I learn the effectiveness of having Warpflamers in the squads. He tried to assault me once. Once. He promptly lost 4 members of his 5 member squad and didn't feel like assaulting with the other one.

Eventually I bring down the raider with a combination of smite, smite, more smite, and finally smite. For the win. After peril'ing again.


As far as I can tell, there's two huge weaknesses in your list: your DP isn't protected and your rubrics are on foot. Rhinos are mandatory for rubrics. You can't take objectives nor capitalize on warpflamers if your Rubrics are on foot. Second of all, the best thing about a DP is that it's a very lethal character considering it has less than 10 wounds which means people can't shoot at it unless it's the closest unit. Rushing it in, opening it up to lascannon fire, is a surefire way to get it killed. You need a unit that can run in front of it. Warp speed some spawn up the board or have the earlier mentioned Rhino close to the DP.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/17 12:12:11


Post by: nintura


That would have been fine, had I had the points available This was a small game.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/18 22:36:48


Post by: Arachnofiend


I'm having a very hard time fielding an army that feels as effective as it would be if I included some Tzeentch daemons; Exalted Flamers and Heralds of Tzeentch are honestly just too good to pass up.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/19 01:09:57


Post by: ballzonya


On a side note how do you guys load out tzangors? Pistols and chainsword or otherwise?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 14:20:18


Post by: nintura


Building my 1k Sons up and purchasing a Hellbrute today. I like the shooting our army already has, but our melee needs some help I think? What would you recommend for the hellbrute? I'm thinking both Scourge and Hammer? Using Warptime to get in an early charge to wreck something valuable sounds like a good idea. Or would it be better to go double scourge? Or Scourge/fist? High toughness seems to be our weakness. Ideas?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 17:02:04


Post by: Widied


I planned to take a hellbrute for much the same reason as you but I am opting for just the basic load-out. My reasoning is I don't believe there's much reason to decking him out for melee. They are pretty decent as is and the point sink doesn't seem worth it. I just really want to make combat units less confident at charging straight in at my rubrics.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 17:02:39


Post by: BoomWolf


I much prefer to hybrid the brute, one melee weapon and one gun.

Not having a proper gun is just wasting a chance to get extra shots by crazed.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 17:03:55


Post by: Widied


Yes. Me too. The basic is a melta/fist. I think it's really solid because most of your army is a mid-range army meaning you are going to want to at the very least get within 24 inch.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 17:53:21


Post by: nintura


 BoomWolf wrote:
I much prefer to hybrid the brute, one melee weapon and one gun.

Not having a proper gun is just wasting a chance to get extra shots by crazed.


Maybe. But then when you're in melee you can't shoot, and when you're shooting, you're not melee'ing anyway. It can also have dual heavy flamers as well already. That'll keep things from charging you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Widied wrote:
I planned to take a hellbrute for much the same reason as you but I am opting for just the basic load-out. My reasoning is I don't believe there's much reason to decking him out for melee. They are pretty decent as is and the point sink doesn't seem worth it. I just really want to make combat units less confident at charging straight in at my rubrics.


Ive found putting 1 or 2 warpflamers in your rubrics keeps people from charging. It's gross.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 18:16:39


Post by: Widied


I did that too!!! Haha! Seems really fun!


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/26 19:43:13


Post by: Arachnofiend


I had a game yesterday where I tried two squads of rubrics with 3 warpflamer/1 boltgun setup. It ruined the genestealers I was up against, I think the ability to take multiple warpflamers is the primary reason to take Rubrics instead of (well, in addition to) SOT's.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/27 06:14:00


Post by: KhazModan


Only problem is that the range is "only" 8" so charges 9" means no overwatch


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/27 06:48:27


Post by: Arachnofiend


I keep my Rubrics in a rhino so that they're not the first ones getting charged. Tzaangors (or something else equally expendable depending on positioning) eat the initial charge, fall back, and Rubrics pile out with their flamers.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/27 12:27:24


Post by: Widied


I'm intending to take them without Rhino using the same mentality as another mentioned -- using tzangors. I see it as you either take Rhino's or a screen/bubble wrap. I'm opting for a screen of tzangors and horrors to move up ahead of the Rubrics. One, to bubble wrap them and the rest of the army and cover more ground from deepstrike so the rest of my army won't get surprised and if they hit into these units big deal. In theory it seems better as these units can fight back with a little more punch than rhino's as well. The changeling gives a minus 1 to shoot at these units, with all is dust, everything should be pretty resilient and able to make it mid field. In theory....


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/27 15:27:07


Post by: BoomWolf


I don't think I'll terribly mind if my rubrics gets charged.
The average rubric can tank the average melee dude forever (as most has 1 damage), and just wait for the sorcerer to psyker and axe stuff to death enough for LD to take it's toll and kill stuff.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/28 13:55:53


Post by: Vryce


 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't think I'll terribly mind if my rubrics gets charged.
The average rubric can tank the average melee dude forever (as most has 1 damage), and just wait for the sorcerer to psyker and axe stuff to death enough for LD to take it's toll and kill stuff.



While you're correct in the assessment of Rubrics durability, the main issue with that is that if Rubrics are in combat, they're not shooting. Rubrics are all about shooting. If you're in combat, you've been reduced to a very pricey CSM squad, because you pay a premium for those AP-2 bolters. Hoping for the Sorc to do the work and win on attrition is wasting the unit, imo.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/28 18:46:08


Post by: Arkaine


Still think flamers are the better way to not get charged. A Rubric blob of Warpflamers will annihilate the squads trying to charge it with their Overwatch. You lose out on some of those inferno bolters but gain protection. Depends if you want the charge defense or the extra offense, and that depends on where exactly they are in relation to other units in your army. Frontline Rubrics? Give them flamers.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/29 00:02:56


Post by: Arachnofiend


So it's confirmed that Thousand Sons is not listed in the CSM codex, which means that we are definitely getting our own codex. What do people want to see for TS-unique stuff? I'd love to see some of the other Tzaangor models imported over from AoS, and getting the Osiron Contemptor Dreadnought would be a dream.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/29 00:19:49


Post by: gummyofallbears


I actually wouldn't be surprised if we got something similar to skyfires or enlightened. I've seen rumors about Nurgle is getting a glottkin based model, in addition to unridden maggoths.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/30 03:54:30


Post by: Mesokhornee


Arachnofiend wrote:
So it's confirmed that Thousand Sons is not listed in the CSM codex, which means that we are definitely getting our own codex. What do people want to see for TS-unique stuff? I'd love to see some of the other Tzaangor models imported over from AoS, and getting the Osiron Contemptor Dreadnought would be a dream.


While its not technically a 1k sons unit ive been running the osiron contemptor as a regular chaos contemptor dread in my 1k sons list..people should note the list of units on the 1k page in the index is not the only units you can bring in a 1k sons army..they are just the only units you can give the 1k sons keyword too, and thus are the only ones that get buffs from 1k sons leaders/characters..you can have vanilla csm units in a 1k sons army no problem at least for now


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/30 04:39:04


Post by: Arachnofiend


By the osiron contemptor I largely mean a helbrute with psychic powers.

If you include non-Thousand Sons units in your army, it is no longer a Thousand Sons army. It's probably a Chaos army, or possibly Tzeentch.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/30 04:41:47


Post by: AverageBoss


 gummyofallbears wrote:
I actually wouldn't be surprised if we got something similar to skyfires or enlightened. I've seen rumors about Nurgle is getting a glottkin based model, in addition to unridden maggoths.


Ya, I found it weird we did not have them from the beginning. Tzaangors are in 40K, Disks are in 40K, Tzaangors riding disks seems like a no brainier since the models exist.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/30 05:06:04


Post by: Lord_Valorion


Mesokhornee wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
So it's confirmed that Thousand Sons is not listed in the CSM codex, which means that we are definitely getting our own codex. What do people want to see for TS-unique stuff? I'd love to see some of the other Tzaangor models imported over from AoS, and getting the Osiron Contemptor Dreadnought would be a dream.


While its not technically a 1k sons unit ive been running the osiron contemptor as a regular chaos contemptor dread in my 1k sons list..people should note the list of units on the 1k page in the index is not the only units you can bring in a 1k sons army..they are just the only units you can give the 1k sons keyword too, and thus are the only ones that get buffs from 1k sons leaders/characters..you can have vanilla csm units in a 1k sons army no problem at least for now


FW gave out a FAQ that (nearly) all things in the FW Index can get "Thousand Sons". So, no problem here.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 12:04:26


Post by: nintura


Played in the Fate of Konor event this weekend. 25 PL as this is a build up league. Took my Thousand Sons:

- Exalted Sorcerer on Disc (Couldn't take any character over PL 9 and I felt Ahriman might be a bit too powerful for this list)

- Squad of Rubrics with Sorcerer. Warpflamer, Warpflame pistol, Icon of Flame

- Hellbrute with Fist + Scourge and Heavy Flamer

The basic plan was to Warp Time the Helbrute and get it into combat with something expensive and as far as I know, I played everything correctly, so please let me know if I did anything illegal. TLDR: Crushed everything.

Longer story: Played 2 of the 3 rounds (date night with the gf before I could play the 3rd round.

First opponent was on Harlequins. He had a couple squads of troops, a shadowseer, and I think that was it. They were decked out. A couple things I noticed: The shadowseer's aura is busted good. We get to re-roll 1s on some things. They get to re-roll every failed To Wound roll. He wiped out my squad pretty quickly. Exalted Sorc managed to make it to combat with the Shadowseer, but he can Withdraw AND move, shoot, assault after... The Sorc kills the Shadowseer in my next turn but also kills himself by Peril'ing TWICE in a row. First double 1's for smite, then double 6's. The Hellbrute just mopped everything up. The heavy flamer keeping my opponent from charging and I eventually tabled him.

Round two saw me fighting the nids. The guy had 60 models to my 7.... AND he got to go first. I made a slight calculation error that saw my sorcerer getting charged and into combat first turn by a measly 1". However, he tied down 30 Hormagaunts with poison and talons for 3 turns. He survived, at first, 30 attacks, then 44, then 38, then 22. Got down to 1 wound (thankfully he had a 2+ due to our All is Dust rule) but survived thanks to command points, however eventually falling to the Warrior squad.

The squad and Helbrute took the left flank and wiped out the devourer Gaunts (all 30 of them) in a single turn from shooting and triple flamer. His HQ (the upgraded Warrior) charged the Helbrute and put a wound on it, but then died horrifically after the Brute responded with 5 fist attacks and 3 scourge swings. Rest of the game was me running down the Warrior squad and remaining Hormagants, eventually tabling the nids player.

All in all, this army is 3-0 in 8th edition.





All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 12:39:25


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Good to hear some success

All is dust doesn't apply to exalted sorceror, hope that's not what you meant.



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 12:49:18


Post by: nintura


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Good to hear some success

All is dust doesn't apply to exalted sorceror, hope that's not what you meant.



Huh. Yep, I cheated then..... I gotta stop assuming everything applies to everything....


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 15:04:07


Post by: Arkaine


That's an interesting point though. Obviously All is Dust isn't on Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcs, Tzaangors... basically if it's not Dust, it's not benefiting from All is Dust.

So what about the Aspiring Sorcerers? The All is Dust rule applies a bonus to saves for Rubric Marines. As with Champions, Aspiring Sorcerers are not Rubric Marines. However, they're in a unit called Rubric Marines.

So what is the rule referring to? Do Aspiring Sorcerers benefit from All is Dust or not? They are Not Dust and everything else that is Not Dust does not benefit either.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 17:34:59


Post by: TzeentchNet


Aspiring Sorcerers do not benefit from All Is Dust. As with other units the ability is specifically calling out the specific name as they appear in the stat lines.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/07/31 18:09:59


Post by: Arkaine


TzeentchNet wrote:
Aspiring Sorcerers do not benefit from All Is Dust. As with other units the ability is specifically calling out the specific name as they appear in the stat lines.

I figured that would be the answer, but now we run into the dilemma of resolving mixed saves in a unit.

Though it probably wouldn't be an issue since models are allocated wounds before the save.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 14:49:18


Post by: Brian888


The Iron Warriors legion description that was released today has this fun tidbit:



We know that the Thousand Sons are not actually in the new Chaos Codex, but assuming that they (eventually) get access to this psychic power, it'll be very, very nice for them, especially for models with All is Dust who are within Magnus's 9" buff bubble.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 14:51:33


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Works on Magnus


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 14:55:33


Post by: Brian888


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Works on Magnus


Yep, effectively a 3+ invulnerable, rerolling 1s. Niiiiiiiiice.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 16:18:19


Post by: Arachnofiend


Judging by the way things work for Space Wolves and whatnot with the SM codex we'll be able to use that spell once the codex launches.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 18:37:57


Post by: Arkaine


Arachnofiend wrote:
Judging by the way things work for Space Wolves and whatnot with the SM codex we'll be able to use that spell once the codex launches.


Even if we didn't have it in our own codex, we can use anything from any codex as long as we meet the requirements. Heck, last edition had some Chaos stuff in Loyalist books.

Tzeentch + Heretic? Yes please.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 19:13:24


Post by: BoomWolf


Last edition had chaos stuff in loyalist books?

Except Cypher, who is both at once and hardly counts-what exactly?


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 21:45:28


Post by: Mesokhornee


Another thing about that spell is the fact that it makes rubrics/scarabs extra tanky as well and even moreso against the ap -1 1 dmg weapons out there


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 21:57:25


Post by: Frozocrone


Interested in starting 1k sons, (mainly just to represent Chaos a for Konor) just a few questions;

1) Ranged or Melee, what works best for a Hellbrute?

2) What ratio of Warpflamers to Inferno Bolters is best on Rubric Marines? Also are Flamer Pistols worth it?

3) Best weapon on Daemon Prince? Sword seems overpriced but Axe is S8 so has merits?



All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 22:15:08


Post by: Arachnofiend


1) Both have their merits, but in a largely shooting army like Thousand Sons I think the las/missile setup is best.

2) I go with a 3:1 warpflamer:bolter ratio myself, largely because that's as many warpflamers as I can reasonably afford. Warpflamers are very good, and they're the thing that makes Rubrics not just Scarab Occults without deep strike IMO.

3) Malefic Talons, always Malefic Talons. The other two options are never worth it.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 23:17:47


Post by: Arkaine


 BoomWolf wrote:
Last edition had chaos stuff in loyalist books?

Except Cypher, who is both at once and hardly counts-what exactly?


Check out War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/01 23:54:23


Post by: BoomWolf


 Arkaine wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Last edition had chaos stuff in loyalist books?

Except Cypher, who is both at once and hardly counts-what exactly?


Check out War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen.


AFAIK fenris is a campaign book, not a loyalist book.

Just like Damocles had rules for both tau and IoM. if anything the weird part is that fenris 2 didn't have anyhting for the IoM.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/02 00:02:18


Post by: Arkaine


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Last edition had chaos stuff in loyalist books?

Except Cypher, who is both at once and hardly counts-what exactly?


Check out War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen.


AFAIK fenris is a campaign book, not a loyalist book.

Just like Damocles had rules for both tau and IoM. if anything the weird part is that fenris 2 didn't have anyhting for the IoM.


War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen was the Space Wolves edition. War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus was the Chaos edition. Yet there were still Chaos rules in the Wulfen book.

If you don't count it yourself, that's fine. That's what I'm referring to and I do. The current edition also has Chaos stuff in the loyalist books, like the Astra Militarum index from ForgeWorld.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/02 17:22:20


Post by: WillvonDoom


I'm in the process of building some scarab occult terminators and was thinking it may be best to take the hellfyre missle rack on the soulreaper cannon terminator. What do you guys think? I'm new to Thousand Sons but don't see anywhere on the data slate that would make this illegal.


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/02 18:10:25


Post by: Arachnofiend


WillvonDoom wrote:
I'm in the process of building some scarab occult terminators and was thinking it may be best to take the hellfyre missle rack on the soulreaper cannon terminator. What do you guys think? I'm new to Thousand Sons but don't see anywhere on the data slate that would make this illegal.

You can, and it's the same thing I do every time.

I wonder if the new psychic power will make Exalted Sorcerers any more attractive... Diabolic Strength gives them 5 attacks at S8, which is pretty damn respectable.

...Granted, a daemon prince is still probably going to be a better target for it. >.>


All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2017/08/02 19:58:29


Post by: Frozocrone


How well do Tzeentch Daemons work with Thousand Sons?

Probably not the best units, but I'm thinking a unit of Brimstone Horrors as a cheap tax and Herald of Tzeentch on Chariot to buff up my 20 man squad of Tzaangors alongside a Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer, 2x Rubrics and a Rhino (ironically, 1k points).

Was either the allies or a Hellbrute with Power Fist and Power Scourge and considering the speed of the rest of the army, felt it would maybe have been a little slow. I think the Tzaangors can be summoned (although please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm waiting for the actual TS Codex to come out and not spend for the Index, even if the Daemon parts may not be included in the TS specific Codex).