With most of the rules leaked now I've been combing the tactics threads and waiting for an overall Eldar discussion to form. There has been some good talk about windriders and Ynnari but I haven't seen a broader "Craftworld's in 8th" post just yet and wanted to get this kick started.
It goes without saying that things have changed for the space elves and it seems we're a lot more balanced than in 7th, which is good. While I'm hoping we can eventually get granular to the point of "which loadout is best" for every single unit I wanted to start by sharing some thoughts on some units that have seen the most changes and see what the impressions were of the pointy-eared community at large.
So, what do you think about (and how would you use)?:
Rangers: Up in price but a lot more potent. With characters being so prominent and buffs essential to most lists they seem useful if not outright good. At 100 for 5 are they worth taking now? How many do you think you'd need to make a viable character assassination unit? Also, for a low cost is Illic now worth it, now that he seems much more consistent? I'm pondering if 2 squads of 5 with Illic will be enough to take out characters, but it certainly isnt cheap. Thoughts?
Nightspinner: When I first went through the index this seemed like a stand out but I haven't heard anyone talking about them yet. It's as cheap as most wave serpents and cheaper than the other battle tanks (falcon/prism). The doomweaver has a great stat line doing 2 damage with a high strength and chance to "rend". Long-range and not needing LOS is huge as well. Anyone think we'll see a lot more of these moving forward (I can't see a reason I'd take a prism over a night spinner now)?
Wraithblades: having played AoS since the start I give a lot of value to stacking saves and buffs (although this has always been true), especially the feel no pain style abilities that affect wounds. With high toughness, 3 wounds, and with the axe and shield a solid invuln save these guys seem ripe for forming a mini-deathstar. My initial idea was 5 or 10 (cost dependent) with a farseer and spiritseer close by. Between doom, conceal, and the spiritseers ability they're hard to hit, tough, and likely to annihilate anything they charge. The key however (in my mind) is stacking fortune on top with conceal which makes them ungodly tough and protected from most things that normally are a threat. -1 to hit is no joke, especially against the high dmg/strength guns that normally have low rof, add in the 50% chance to block damage and then a 5 up to ignore the wound, those 3 wound models aren't going anywhere fast. Definitely expensive, but does anyone else think you could build a good list around it? They can also advance until in range so they're not too slow.
Those are just my initial thoughts, there are certainly a lot of aspects (hah) of the new units to discuss. I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone else thinks and what successes (or failures) you're having. Overall, we may have dropped in power from being OP but I think with good choices and generalship we are still a force to be reckoned with.
I've not played a game yet, so it is all reading and watching some battle reports to see what may work.
Nightspinner: This also stood out in the rules for me. I've run one in 6th and 7th edition and it had it's uses on occasion. I think it will be more versatile in 8th edition. 2d6 shots that will generally wound on 3-4+ is good, in my opinion and has the potential to cripple transports.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: Without vehicle fire arcs, I think this thing is really tough. It can turn and the beginning and end of its move to ensure it won't go off table. With its damage output between Smite and Heavy D-Scythes (which auto hit, IIRC), I think this can be our real character sniper. If you opponent is not careful with model position, this flier can go right past the big lines of troops/models and set up very close to the stray character.
Avatar: A huge Fearless bubble and cannot be singled out unless it is the closest model is awesome if you want to run a foot heavy army. I've got 60 Guardians as the core of my force which makes the Avatar a must take.
Storm Guardians: I'll have to double check, but IIRC, Aeldari blades allow rerolls to hit in assault. While the lowly Guardian does not have huge offensive capability, I think powers such as Doom can catch opponents offguard with how much damage Storm Guardians can put out.
Shuriken Cannon: I'm not so worried about 36" range for Scatbikes. With turn 1 Deep Strikes and the ability to get turn 1 assaults (the ability to use 1 CP to reroll one dice for assault range is very significant), I want to have the ability for Jetbikes to move and retain accurate fire. Jetbikes have Battle Focus, so can move 22" per turn and still fire Shuriken Cannon without penalty (Craftworld armies).
For the Wraithknight fans: For 2000 points, I can run the Low Detachment and the 3 Character Detachment. I get 7 Command Points: 3 Wraithknights, Avatar, Farseer, Autarch. I have no idea how good it is, but if you have multiple Wraithknights.
Autarch: Rerolls 1 to hit bubble. As most of our models have a base to hit of 3+, the Autarch only doesn't provide a reroll for a roll of '2'. It's a bit of a poor man's Guide, but in Matched Play, we can't cast Guide two times, so this may be an option to explore to enhance shooting.
I'm excited to be able to get some games in. From what I'm seeing on YouTube, the game appears much more streamlined and actually containing a lot more depth than initially thought.
After reading almost all the lists and point costs of other armies it seems to me that craftworld eldar will be one of the weaker armies if you bring a classic list (a bit of everything).
I don't see many ways of competing with point-cost efficient choices of armies like orks and tyranids.
Our high point costs combined with other armies ability to deep strike, shoot and then assault our units will result in a lot of dead eldar.
It is still early to tell which army will be the best or worst, but I am not optimistic about our space elves.
Thoughts on some units:
Dire avengers, war walkers and maybe vypers seem like they are not worth taking. They are not bad in term of rules, they are just overcosted.
Striking scorpions and Howling banshees don't seem great either. In Eldar Faction focus article they claimed that scorpions are really good in close combat.
Comparing them to some similarly costed choices from other armies makes them look rather weak. Low strength coupled with low number of attacks does not make a good assault unit.
Avatar seems really solid to me. It is expensive but it gives a relevant buff, it is tough and a beast in close combat, especially against single targets with many wounds.
Farseer and warlocks seem almost mandatory. Their psychic powers make our whole army perform better on the table for not a large point investment.
Windriders seem like they are worth taking. Shuriken cannon looks like the most cost efficient option, being only 2 points more than twin catapults.
Combine that with battle focus and you got a unit that has high damage output, is very fast and does not lose accuracy on the move.
Wraithguard are costly but with 3 wounds and the best flamer in the game look like a solid option.
Put them in a transport, move them up the field, next turn drop them out, advance and watch them melt face.
They roll a single d3 for all their weapon shots, this makes great use of a single command point.
Fire Prism and Nightspinner seem meh to me. Not bad, but not really doing much.
Fire prism killing about 6-7 marines over three turns of the game, assuming you roll 6 shots every time, does not look very appealing.
Other modes of prism cannon may have some uses but I believe it is just not enough damage per shot.
I agree with your assessment of wraithblades and stacking buffs in general. That seems like the way to go this edition.
Small side point/rant:
I have to say that I strongly disagree with stacking buffs mechanic from a game design point of view.
Models giving benefits to other models just by being around makes the game almost impossible to balance.
It is very hard to reflect the ability to augment many units at once in point cost of the model.
How many units it affects, which units, are they affected by other buffs that make this one even better, etc. How to price something that has such high variance in performance ?
When designing these rules and units, you have to assume that the player will take them with some other choices in the army, so you have to make sure that units cost are not too low and so on.
This often results in models that are too good or too bad for their points, it is seldom balanced.
The buff mechanic alone, in my eyes, make for a bad wargame. Because of this I am worried for 40k (in terms of balance).
End of rant.
I am eager to hear what fellow eldar players think of our new rules. Perhaps we can make eldar compete with top armies yet again !
Great point about the use of a Command Point for the Wraithguard!
I agree with your side point. Give it a few months and especially after a few codex releases and the buff mechanic combinations will really take hold.
I'm really on the fence regarding Dire Avengers. I have a full squad, but I'm also struggling to justify them due to what I see as an overpriced unit. We'll see.
Shining Spears are going to be a contender for most improved I'd say.
They're pricy, but hit like a truck now along with increased movement and more wounds.
I envisage my armies to be jetbike heavy (that'll please many people...) With a core of 1 or 2 units of Spears to knock out pesky fliers or tough deepstrikers.
Poor Dire Avengers. Relegated to Shadow War for now I think. Hoping to see them back when an Eldar codex arrives.
If you really want to field troops I think the best option right now is rangers they offer a tactical advantage with sniper rifles that really nothing else in our army brings and also are way better than Avengers for only 3ppm more.
Units I'm really liking are as follows.
War Walkers these things actually look bloody tough I mean like really tough for their points you actually need to dedicate firepower to bring them down and for a super cheap cost bring w heavy weapons along, unfortunately they do take a -1 hit with non shuriken cannons.
Shinning Spears are these guys finally good??? They have ap-4 s6 and 2 damage an attack using both ranged and melee with the same profile when they charge. They are quite costly though but put out a big punch.
Readers also a finally good unit their damage output is just really good for their points and can really deal death, gives those primaris marines a really bad day.
Wave serpents when every other transport went up in points these guys seem to really have not lost much which is quite helpful especially as they can load up on heavy weapons to.
The suckers these are units I think should be avoided.
Dire Avengers rest in piece shooty bros they have an insane points cost and honestly don't have anything to justify it.
Wraithknight what is that points cost even I would say if they had their 6th ed profile 500 points would be fine. But all their weapons and literally everything about them except wound number took a nerf. Can't really imagine fielding them without a specific plan.
Banshees well lowering their attacks and dropping their special rules doesn't help the ninja girls one bit honestly harlequins are better in every way if you play ynnari and otherwise these girls just don't bring much.
Most units are okayish for the most part in really hoping the fw index adds a lot of our favourite units back in. I'm also struggling to build a playable force especially one I enjoy.
Sarigar wrote: Great point about the use of a Command Point for the Wraithguard!
I agree with your side point. Give it a few months and especially after a few codex releases and the buff mechanic combinations will really take hold.
I'm really on the fence regarding Dire Avengers. I have a full squad, but I'm also struggling to justify them due to what I see as an overpriced unit. We'll see.
Glad that you share my view.
I am seeing a pattern here in our posts : a unit is good, but pricey. That pretty much sums up our codex. I am also having trouble making a playable list. I am finding it hard to find a balance between enough bodies and firepower.
@Titanicus I do not agree about war walkers, best weapons are heavy so they lose on accuracy and the weapons themselves cost so much, almost as the walker itself. Agree about the wave serpent, i have forgot to include that in my post. They do seem good for their point cost, better than fire prism.
@Sarigar Interesting point about Wraithfighter, i haven't looked at it that way. This is why we have these threads for
The Avatar does look much improved, and 12 inch fearless bubble is huge with morale working how it does now. He still suffers from one of his old problems in that you really need to build your list around him, and he isn't cheap.
The Hemlock looks very solid too. If hard to hit and conceal stack then it's very tough for a flyer. Dscythes and smite will stack wounds too, which with the mindshock pods adds a high chance of extra kills from morale.
Something isn't right with Dire Avengers. It's either a mistake in points or they really are a lot worse this edition. Asurmen and seer buffs can help. They're not bad, just overpriced. But with guardians looking good, and rangers being useful, they need to be built around. I doubt it's worth it.
Pingu. I disagree that we're bottom tier, speed and firepower will always have a place, and we still have it. What I do agree with is that to not be bottom tier we're going to have to focus our lists and not attempt to be jack of all trades. I think wave serpent heavy lists as well as mixed aeldari Ynnari will be strong. I feel like certain units and combo will emerge as strong against the meta. Something like dark reaper spam with buffs and some form of counter melee or speed bump (I think reapers are looking amazing this edition), I'm not saying that's the list - just that it will be something spammy/focused. That's largely for the tournament scene to devise.
You're right there is an inherent danger of imbalancing when it comes to the aoe buffs from characters, some are very strong. But that is where positioning/movement and snipers have a place. I use models with Fly to jump units and assault characters all the time in AoS. You're going to see the same with serpents/bikes/spiders (we have a lot of fly). This is part of why I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts on rangers and Illic.
Also, I think striking scorpions look good, but they are expensive. Without a fleet or charge reroll they're going to get stuck in the open sometimes when they do appear. But I think they'll murder backfield units in cover or near objectives. Which is kind of the point.
Pingu. I disagree that we're bottom tier, speed and firepower will always have a place, and we still have it. What I do agree with is that to not be bottom tier we're going to have to focus our lists and not attempt to be jack of all trades. I think wave serpent heavy lists as well as mixed aeldari Ynnari will be strong. I feel like certain units and combo will emerge as strong against the meta. Something like dark reaper spam with buffs and some form of counter melee or speed bump (I think reapers are looking amazing this edition), I'm not saying that's the list - just that it will be something spammy/focused. That's largely for the tournament scene to devise.
You're right there is an inherent danger of imbalancing when it comes to the aoe buffs from characters, some are very strong. But that is where positioning/movement and snipers have a place. I use models with Fly to jump units and assault characters all the time in AoS. You're going to see the same with serpents/bikes/spiders (we have a lot of fly). This is part of why I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts on rangers and Illic.
I strongly agree with your view about focused lists. Sadly, I have a little bit of everything so I am not one bit happy about that (also many dire avengers :( ), but that is a personal problem.
I thought this discussion is for craftworld eldar only. Combining with Ynnari requires different approach to list building and unit assessment.
Positioning can only do so much against characters. A Big mek or Weirdboy in the middle of an Ork blob is almost impossible to remove without snipers.
There is nothing in the rules stopping you from putting characters in the middle of units, they do not have to be on the sides or behind.
Side question for everyone:
Do you think we will get our own craftworld eldar codex or will GW only focus on ynnari in the future?
I am a bit worried about this because we have seen the same with AoS, some armies with full ranges are just left in the dust (like Empire) while new factions emerge.
Definitely a craftworld post, I mention Ynnari just because that will likely be the easiest way to make craftworlds competitive.
You're right, positioning goes both ways, and certain units and combinations lower the risks of it.
We'll definitely see more craftworld books, too much variety, too much established history, and more importantly too much money to be made releasing multiple books. I mean, they announce an Iyanden book and you can watch the wraith sales spike. My guess is they'll eventually do a chapter tactics style book ala angels of death for craftworlds, although there's definitely some wishlisting in that.
I have played fantasy for more than 10 years before Aos dropped, now I have 3 fully painted armies sitting in display cabinet (empire, dwarfs and dark elves). I guess AoS made me a bit paranoid. God only knows why I still buy GW products...
Hi everyone. I am an eldar player since 5th edition, and I have mixed feelings about our army in this latest iteration of the game. I mainly play Biel-tan style armies, so I mainly focused on our aspects after the rules have been made available, so I am going to share my opinion on those. Keep in mind that these are all theory-crafting, haven't played any games yet. So here goes.
Dire Avengers: These are overcosted, but I will still use them, mainly in 5 man squads loaded in a Wave Serpent, mainly to fill troops slot, and lower my drop count during deployment.
Fire Dragons: Well, nothing really changed here from previous editions. They will still kill vehicles and monsters dead. But, because how meltabombs work now, I will always give the flamer to the exarch. He can still throw his bomb when needed.
Striking Scorpions: I think they got worse. Losing their shrouded is huge, and not being able to move after deep-striking hurts them. I would prefer an infiltrate ability, like what the rangers have. As for the exarch weapons, I will try the biting blade over the claw. Str 5 is not much worse the Str6 in this edition, but the penalty of the claw is to big (you can't even get the extra attack for a 6 to hit...)
Howling banshees: Str3 still hurts, losing the no owerwatch ability hurts, ASF is nice. I think I will mostly use them to tie up nasty combat units that can't charge after falling back. -1 to hit from the exarch, -1 to hit from a nearby warlock, and they can make a lot of combat unit very ineffective.
Swooping hawks: I am not sure about these. They have a lot of shots when close range, but it's only str3 0ap 1dmg. They grenades got nerfed hard, they won't do much damage. And the sunrifle abiltiy to give -1 to hit expires at the end of the turn. So your opponent can shoot without penalty on his turn. Yeah...
Warp Spiders: These are bad. Yes, they are fast, but their gone is just awful. it's just a slightly better shuricat. Str6 is not that awesome as before, they won't kill vehicles and monsters, and they will have to sit within 12 inches of their target. I am not even sure they can shoot after falling back (they lose the fly keyword in the shooting phase). I am not sure what is it they are good at..
Shinning spears: Our best aspect in my opinion. They re fast, with assault weapons, they can fire both their weapons at different targets, a unit of 5 will have 5 lance shots and 20 shuricat shots, they will kill vehicles, monsters and characters, put a dent in hordes... They are just solid.
Dark reapers: They are decent. The tempest launcher will decimate hordes, even if they try to hide, they will hit fliers without penalty, they threaten big, and multi-wound models, can move and shoot without penalty... a very useful unit. But keep in mind they are only ap-2. So marines will get a save against them.
Crimson Hunter: It will kill fliers and big models dead. Also a good assassination unit due to it's speed and no fire arcs on vehicles. Solid unit.
Did I miss anything? Did anyone find other uses for our aspects? I would love to hear your thoughts on it (especially on Warp Spiders. I struggle to find a use for them :( )
Wave serpents when every other transport went up in points these guys seem to really have not lost much which is quite helpful especially as they can load up on heavy weapons to.
I plan to unshelve my Eldar as in the 7th ed they were a bit over the top.
My old Serpent army supported by Warwalkers and whatnot may have a place at the tabletop. Thoughts?
Wave serpents when every other transport went up in points these guys seem to really have not lost much which is quite helpful especially as they can load up on heavy weapons to.
I plan to unshelve my Eldar as in the 7th ed they were a bit over the top.
My old Serpent army supported by Warwalkers and whatnot may have a place at the tabletop. Thoughts?
I think both those units are decently strong but I would avoid low rate of fire weapons on the war walkers so no bright lances but shuriken starcannons or missiles seem fine on them. Wave serpents just seem good take anything on them really and the bottom shuriken cannon is a nice bonus in a split fire edition.
Wave serpents when every other transport went up in points these guys seem to really have not lost much which is quite helpful especially as they can load up on heavy weapons to.
I plan to unshelve my Eldar as in the 7th ed they were a bit over the top.
My old Serpent army supported by Warwalkers and whatnot may have a place at the tabletop. Thoughts?
I think both those units are decently strong but I would avoid low rate of fire weapons on the war walkers so no bright lances but shuriken starcannons or missiles seem fine on them. Wave serpents just seem good take anything on them really and the bottom shuriken cannon is a nice bonus in a split fire edition.
Well, my Serpents used to have tl scatterlasers with underslung shuricannon, and the Warwalkers are magnetized for missile launchers and scatterlasers.
With LP, the tanks or walkers can shoot all the time with the downgrading coming in.
I want to push back a bit on some units that I don't think are as good as people are thinking. I actually think that the Eldar overall are in an okay place, but there are some real stinkers here, including some that I think people are misevaluating.
Having played a bit with the new rules, models with 2-3 wounds are very often way overpriced. Especially those with good toughness and saves. They are much, much worse than they were in earlier editions since the heavy weapons that people are going to want to use against them tend to take off multiple wounds per hit.
For example, a shuriken cannon Windrider is 32 points. This is 16 points per wound, which doesn't sound too bad. But many of the weapons that armies will have anyway to deal with high toughness and good saves don't care that Windriders have 2 wounds. Our Starcannon kills Windriders as easily as it kills tactical Marines. A super-charged plasma gun has the same effect. Other common multi-damage weapons include Autocannons, Battle cannons, and lots of long-range artillery like the Basilisk's Earthshaker cannon. Against many of these it's almost like you're paying 32 points per wound, which is awful. This is an extreme case, but a Dark Eldar Razorwing Jetfighter with Disintegrator Cannons expects to kill 5 Jetbikes in one volley, ignoring its twin splinter rifle. Nothing should be making back almost all of its points in a single round of shooting, and the Windriders don't even have that much firepower which might justify their being so fragile. I think Jetbikes are almost as bad as Dire Avengers now.
Shining Spears look a lot better than Windriders at least, and may at least be somewhat playable. Yes, you're paying more than 20 points per wound, and that's on the high side, but the 3+/4++ makes them about twice as durable as Windriders against most multi-damage weapons.
Wraithblades don't seem to me to have nearly as big of a problem, though I don't think they're great. With swords, they're 35 points for 3 wounds, but of course no invulnerable save. 12 points per wound is sounding a lot better, and is more in line with what T7 tanks and monsters pay. With axes they're 54 points, so they're a lot more vulnerable to small arms fire at 18 points per wound, and they're not really any more resilient against AP-3 or worse for cost, so this mostly doesn't seem like a great buy.
Dark Reapers are literally 36 points per T3 2+ wound (the Exarch does add an extra but you're not tanking with him since he'll have a Tempest launcher). That's nuts, and I'm even assuming they're in cover. It is completely unworkable in an edition with absurdly cheap Guard mortars, on-demand Deep Striking inside rapid-fire range with possible charges, and easy access to mortal wounds. Your best-case scenario with Reapers is starting them in a Serpent, dismounting into cover for a 2+ save, shooting once, and getting blown up. They do hit hard-ish. A Reaper averages about 20 points' worth of damage against extremely fragile Windriders. They're supposed to be pretty good against Hard to Hit flyers, but here a Reaper expects only about 15 points' worth of damage or less. Meanwhile a Hemlock -- the sort of thing they're supposed to be good against -- can make back about 80% of its points if there are enough Dark Reapers around for it not to overkill the unit. It's worth noting that the Tempest launcher is a lot better than the Reaper launcher, and certainly if you were going to take Reapers you should just always be taking minimum squads to get the Tempest launcher, but still we're talking about under two Marines per turn on a platform that every army should be able to blow up in one turn with little effort.
I think Rangers look okay in a vacuum, mostly because no one really knows how to evaluate the power of the sniper rule, but they're actually an extremely inefficient source of sniper fire, paying a lot more than comparable options in other factions for not much gain. Space Marine scout snipers are 15 points per model. The Scouts have a better save and T but the Rangers subtract 1 from enemy hit rolls, so durability is probably a wash. The Rangers have a slightly better deployment rule, since they deploy 9" away from the enemy before turn 1 starts whereas the Scouts deploy 9" away during regular deployment. There's no way this is worth 33% more points. Imperial Guard Ratlings are significantly more fragile than rangers per model, with 1 worse T, Sv, and no penalty to enemy hit rolls. They have a similar deployment rule. However, they can move 6" after they shoot, which makes them the only actually-mobile sniper, and this appears to work even after Overwatch fire, making them basically unchargeable. Oh, and they're only 7 points each. So you can have about three times as many of them and, per point, they're much more durable than Rangers while doing three times the damage. It's true that they're only Ld 5, but even if you just count any casualties they take double they're still about as durable as the Rangers against most things while having hugely more firepower and mobility. So if Rangers are a decent pick, it probably means that Ratlings are the most overpowered thing ever.
gery81 wrote: ...Warp Spiders: These are bad. Yes, they are fast, but their gone is just awful. it's just a slightly better shuricat. Str6 is not that awesome as before, they won't kill vehicles and monsters, and they will have to sit within 12 inches of their target. I am not even sure they can shoot after falling back (they lose the fly keyword in the shooting phase). I am not sure what is it they are good at..
I do believe that spiders can still shoot even if they fall back since the restriction and falling back occurs in the movement phase. No mention in the shooting phase that a unit that fell back can't shoot. So I think you only need FLY in the movement phase to be able to shoot and fall back. Str6 is actually still pretty awesome! Yes you are now wounding T4 on a 3+ but now you are wounding knights and landraiders on a 5+! 12 shots (2 deathspinner on exarch) will still hurt infantries specially with a rend -4.
I think War Walkers are one of the best heavy weapon platform in the elder codex. 101 points gives you 2 brightlance on a T6 W6 and 5++. Does not lose any firepower until all 6 wounds are gone. Also, the have their "scout" move to reposition themselves after deployment and should mitigate the need to move and get the -1 hit modifier. They can carry starcannons too! Those guns are just nasty!
Uriels_Flame wrote: I have knights and a revenant. Has anyone seen points for FW items yet? If the Knights moved to 500pts I can only imagine the titan will be double...
Haven't seen the fw points yet for any xenos stuff. I'm in the same boat got a vampire hunter and revenant. Can't see the revenant being much less than 1500 of a stompa is 1k. Vampire will maybe be a 1000 I hope not that I hope it's finally useful.
But having seen the prices of stuff like knights and wraith knights going up same with stompa does lead to a points increase interesinglly the Lord of Skulls went down 150 so maybe they will still be usable in games.
Its a real shame to say but Aspect Warriors are really not in a good place this edition. Especially not Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spiders & Hawks. Only Shining Spears seem to have made it out with an improvement. I understand they needed to nerf Eldar but was it really necessary to hit units that were already weak like Banshees and Scorpions? Like come on, we finally get a transport that will allow them to function and they become gak in cc....
I predict pure Craftworld Eldar will not see the table in competitive play. Strength from Death is just far superior to Battle Focus, and with it so easy to take superior choices from the DE and Harlies along with the better Craftworld units, why bother with a pure army?
When the playtesters say they tried to make Eldar bad on purpose, it doesn't fill me with much happiness. But at least they achieved their goal.
Banshees, Scorpions, Avengers, Wraithlords, Swooping Hawks, Avatar, Farseers, Warlocks, Vaul's Wrath are all objectively worse and went up in points. Many of those things were garbage before, now they are worse.
I have no idea how Craftworld Eldar are supposed to actually kill anything, let alone be good at killing things.
and maybe vypers seem like they are not worth taking
I think a lot of people would be surprised when they'll find out that Vypers with 2 SC are one of the most durable and cost effecient fire support units now - bonus points for hit&run and shooting unit that charged them after cause of Fly.
And with Outrider Detachment, it's possible to use them sorta like main troops choice.
For me, the biggest bummer are our tanks. I imagine Phil Kelly himself played Dire Avengers in Falcons that cost when loaded with weapons like naked Land Raiders - yeah, the most playtested edition my arse.
Spinner at least can camp on objectives. Everything else but venerable WS seem like trash. And the only vehicle which can shoot in Eldar army at full BS is a friggin interceptor.
For aspects, haven't run the math but I think Banshees are going to outperform Scorps by far. Peasants will hit them on 6s in melee, and powerswords and rending pistols might do something against elites. They're cheaper than Avengers too O_o
I think a lot of people would be surprised when they'll find out that Vypers with 2 SC are one of the most durable and cost effecient fire support units now - bonus points for hit&run and shooting unit that charged them after cause of Fly.
And with Outrider Detachment, it's possible to use them sorta like main troops choice.
For me, the biggest bummer are our tanks. I imagine Phil Kelly himself played Dire Avengers in Falcons that cost when loaded with weapons like naked Land Raiders - yeah, the most playtested edition my arse.
Spinner at least can camp on objectives. Everything else but venerable WS seem like trash. And the only vehicle which can shoot in Eldar army at full BS is a friggin interceptor.
For aspects, haven't run the math but I think Banshees are going to outperform Scorps by far. Peasants will hit them on 6s in melee, and powerswords and rending pistols might do something against elites. They're cheaper than Avengers too O_o
I think Vypers are relatively bad unless you just can't find a way to take more Wave Serpents. A Vyper with 2 Shuriken Cannons costs 88 points, while a Serpent with 3 costs 143. So the Vyper costs 61.5% what the Serpent does for 66.7% of the firepower. 3 Vypers shoot like 2 Serpents and cost 264 points to the Serpents' 286. Those extra 22 points get you T7, Serpent Shields, 8 (!!) wounds, and transport capacity. If you're taking at least a Battalion you'll always have slots for at least 5 Serpents. Unless you're wanting to take nothing but Vypers you should have room for plenty of Serpents, and even if you do want to take nothing but Vypers each one gives you a slot for a Serpent.
Don't forget they can be crippled, while light vehicles have to be all destroyed or they'll continue to shoot at full BS.
Everything is relatively bad compared to WS though, since it's somewhat of an anomaly as it sticks out even when it comes to wounds (you'd think every tank would have same 12).
My $0.02 I think serpents are really good, the ability to ignore additional damage means that a lot of shooting armies will take a while to whittle them down, especially if they are relying on lascannons and meltas. However they will wilt in assault so that is a concern. I recommend a serpent with dual shuri cannons and a chin cannon, it can move and put out 9 S5 shots and the rend can be useful too.
My worry is eldar will have trouble with horde armies, it is also the weakness of the serpent, even with 8 SL shots it will be tough to kill enough of them. also mass autocannons or assault cannons will be an issue.
Shadenuat wrote: Don't forget they can be crippled, while light vehicles have to be all destroyed or they'll continue to shoot at full BS.
Everything is relatively bad compared to WS though, since it's somewhat of an anomaly as it sticks out even when it comes to wounds (you'd think every tank would have same 12).
The Serpents can be crippled, but even ignoring the Serpent Shields they have 8 more wounds and T7. A Vyper will die before the first Serpent loses a point of BS.
I just started eldar and the more I look at it, the more I realize that most of our stuff is crap. There's a few things here and there that are decent, but most things are too expensive for what they do. I really wanted to use mostly aspect warriors, but only a few seem worth it.
My army is probably going to end up being mostly farseer, warlock, Serpents, shining spears, and a hemlock wraith fighter. Maybe fire dragons for anti-tank and guardians for troops tax.
As compared to what though? A lot of stuff across all armies gone up in points.
Take dire avengers. 17 points for t3 4+ and an 18" gun? Dark Reapers might do some damage, but they'll get shredded if anything looks at them funny. and they're what, 36 points each? Warp spiders have S6, sure, but at no AP and a short range gun, their points aren't really worth it. -1 to shoot and the warp jump helps, but an assault cannon is still going to rip through them. Striking scorpions don't seem like they do that much damage. Sure infiltrating is nice, but raptors can basically do the same thing and reroll the charge with icon of wrath. They also lost all of their defensive cover abilities.
Even the things that are pretty cheap don't feel file they do anything. Howling banshees are wounding most things of 5's and 6's so they need doom to even get some wounds through. And now you need jain zar to get ignore overwatch?
Reapers cost 4 pts less than Long Fangs (if they pick missiles) I think and their ability is a lot better.
Spider's rending now punches through cover and while they have gone up in pts, with free Exarch and 8 pts for +2 shots they still don't cost a lot (118 pts for 12 S6 shots -4 rending compared to 7th 114 pts). They're better than they were in any edition since 4th but the 7th, but it was obvious they'd get scaled back from 7th.
With Scorps, not sure myself, but you should concider that many melee specialists never gained even 2 attacks by default while losing their +1 for charge compared to aspects.
Banshees, now wound T5 on 5+ and finally can assault from transports - which can charge before banshees and eat up the Overwatch.
I mean, before there wasn't even a concievable way to use Banshees because you couldn't charge from a transport.
DarknessEternal wrote: When the playtesters say they tried to make Eldar bad on purpose, it doesn't fill me with much happiness.
Where did they say this? Pretty frustrating if true.
See the Summary of their comments in the main news and rumors thread.
They premier playtesters/article writers have a long history of hating Eldar, and finally had a chance to put their bias into the game.
Can you please link that, I am unable to find a reference that they made them bad on purpose.
After taking some more time reading other faction rules and watching some games I am finding eldar to be even worse than I predicted.
Example:
A friend of mine plays orks and he talked to me about some lists (2000 points) that he put together.
At first I thought that he made some kind of mistake when adding points, but it turns out that orks can cram so much firepower and bodies into a list it is almost unbelievable.
I cannot find a cost efficient way of dealing with 80+ orks, let alone everything else their army brings to the table. Teleporting ork blobs will make short work of almost anything we can put onto table.
I told him about some of my list ideas (with the models I own) and he agreed with me that there is almost no way to defeat his list with what I have.
Some of you talk about scorpions being ok. No, they really aren't. Orks have more attacks, same strength, and reroll charge distance for a fraction of the scorpion cost. You can even teleport them with weirdboy.
Most of our units seems so impotent comparing to other armies, even stupid orks with their 5+ bs are going to outshoot us due to the sheer number of shots.
I did not want to believe that, but the idea that the balancing team hates eldar seems more and more plausible.
Frontline gaming article summary reads that they believe that eldar are in the bottom 5 tier (with Inquisition, Demons, Legion of the Damned)
Having a clear bottom tier for an edition that was advertised as thoroughly playtested does not fill me with confidence.
Yeah pretty sure Eldar are trash this edition. Don't confuse play testing to make a balanced game with play testing to drive sales of models. GW strictly the latter cause they're just to stupid to see the forest through the trees.
Static Eldar units just feels wrong to me. I guess I could have my war walkers just chill some where the whole game and not move but dam it's just not fun.
Scorpions just plain suck now. I'm not even sure Banshees are that good. 4+ armor and LD8 is not good.
Yep I must agree with you all, Craftworld Eldar are overall very weak.
I had such initial hope for this edition but it just seems like the power has moved from mobile shooting --> cheap hordes & turn 1 alpha strike. No offence meant to the playtesters but I really wish they'd had people with analytical minds running numbers or something, because the disparity between units and especially between different weapons is even worse than it has been in the last few editions and mostly due to wacky costing.
Khaine wrote: Yep I must agree with you all, Craftworld Eldar are overall very weak.
I had such initial hope for this edition but it just seems like the power has moved from mobile shooting --> cheap hordes & turn 1 alpha strike. No offence meant to the playtesters but I really wish they'd had people with analytical minds running numbers or something, because the disparity between units and especially between different weapons is even worse than it has been in the last few editions and mostly due to wacky costing.
You keep thinking this is just some kind of accident on the part of GW's play testers. It's not. It's intentional. Always has been.
Also the turn one alpha strike has never been easier. Which just makes the entire game worse.
After taking some more time reading other faction rules and watching some games I am finding eldar to be even worse than I predicted.
Example:
A friend of mine plays orks and he talked to me about some lists (2000 points) that he put together.
At first I thought that he made some kind of mistake when adding points, but it turns out that orks can cram so much firepower and bodies into a list it is almost unbelievable.
I cannot find a cost efficient way of dealing with 80+ orks, let alone everything else their army brings to the table. Teleporting ork blobs will make short work of almost anything we can put onto table.
I told him about some of my list ideas (with the models I own) and he agreed with me that there is almost no way to defeat his list with what I have.
Some of you talk about scorpions being ok. No, they really aren't. Orks have more attacks, same strength, and reroll charge distance for a fraction of the scorpion cost. You can even teleport them with weirdboy.
Most of our units seems so impotent comparing to other armies, even stupid orks with their 5+ bs are going to outshoot us due to the sheer number of shots.
I did not want to believe that, but the idea that the balancing team hates eldar seems more and more plausible.
Frontline gaming article summary reads that they believe that eldar are in the bottom 5 tier (with Inquisition, Demons, Legion of the Damned)
Having a clear bottom tier for an edition that was advertised as thoroughly playtested does not fill me with confidence.
Yes, mostly the Aspects are not great. They can be made to work but they're not the backbone of a list, and some are just plain bad. I don't think any of them have a really clear use other than the Fire Dragons. Like I've probably said, the best units in the index are Guardians, Wave Serpents, and the flyers. Guardians and Serpents are excellent against infantry Orks, especially with a Farseer to Doom big groups. The Serpents can even help keep them off of your Guardians by charging -- it takes a lot of S4 attacks to bring one down. Your flyers only really have stuff to shoot at if the Ork player brings more than just mobs, but if he doesn't have anything that itself flies you can use them to block movement and charges or deny Deep Strikes. Orks have very few ways to efficiently deal with flyers other than charging them with Stormboyz or something like that.
Are Eldar really poor, or you guys just spoiled by 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 7th eds? When you've always got undercosted units to field, paying appropriate costs seems unacceptable.
Martel732 wrote: Are Eldar really poor, or you guys just spoiled by 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 7th eds? When you've always got undercosted units to field, paying appropriate costs seems unacceptable.
I think they're mostly fine, it's just that most of the units aren't worth using compared to the best units in the faction and other factions. Most other factions are in the same boat. Certainly there are lots of Guard units I wouldn't touch, and I think they're probably the best faction right now.
Spartacus wrote: Shining Spears are going to be a contender for most improved I'd say.
They're pricy, but hit like a truck now along with increased movement and more wounds.
I envisage my armies to be jetbike heavy (that'll please many people...) With a core of 1 or 2 units of Spears to knock out pesky fliers or tough deepstrikers.
Poor Dire Avengers. Relegated to Shadow War for now I think. Hoping to see them back when an Eldar codex arrives.
My thoughts exactly. The Spears and any farseer/warlock on a bike will be nice to take out enemy flyers.
I think War Walkers are one of the best heavy weapon platform in the elder codex. 101 points gives you 2 brightlance on a T6 W6 and 5++. Does not lose any firepower until all 6 wounds are gone. Also, the have their "scout" move to reposition themselves after deployment and should mitigate the need to move and get the -1 hit modifier. They can carry starcannons too! Those guns are just nasty!
I also see them as fairly cheap compared to a lot of the vehicles out there. You need a Fortune from the Farseer on a full unit of 3 WarWalkers to give them extra staying power.
I haven't gotten my books yet or played any games with my Eldar, but from watching batreps of 8th edition here are my general ideas:
1. Cover is key for Eldar. We don't have good saves on most units, and most weapons with high -AP values also tend to be high-strength. If your units aren't in cover or in a transport, there had better be a very good reason why.
2. Mobility and deployment shenanigans will be key for Eldar in 8th edition. What with assault being much more lethal and alpha-charging a very real concern, Eldar units will either need to deploy away from the center of the table or be able to reposition quickly. Fortunately, Eldar vehicles tend to be quite fast and we have plenty of options for quickly moving models around the table now. Rangers and Striking Scorpions will be big winners, as they can deploy from unexpected angles or take objectives at critical times.
There appears to be a lot of flexibility in list building for Craftworld. A previous poster indicated they don't know how to handle 80+ Orks, but one of my lists has 103 Craftworld models (2000 point Battalion detachment)
But, some of the Aspect Warriors I am struggling with, but this has been the case in 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th editions. Fire Dragons still are an easy choice, while I'm still not convinced about Banshees and Scorpions.
I'm currently struggling with Swooping Hawks. They can easily get within Rapid Fire range and unload 40 shots, but with S3, it definitely needs Doom cast on a target unit. They can go into cover with little issue for some protection, but I'm a bit torn on their efficiency.
Wave Serpents seem ok, but not great. I see folks posting twin Scatterlasers and Shuriken Cannon. When moving, you average 4 Scatterlaser hits and 2 Shuriken Cannon hits. Is that enough hits? It has some durability, but I don't think it will be difficult to destroy a Wave Serpent in 1-2 turns. Time will tell.
Folks seem to be writing off Wraithknights due to points. I'm curious if multiple Wraithknights have merit. I've got a 2000 point army consisting of 3 Wraithknights, Avatar, Farseer, and Spiritseer. While I can't play for a bit more (I'm out of country and w/o my army), it has been interesting seeing how armies are evolving and battle reports have been interesting - lists seem a bit small and a bit too 'take all comer'.
Sarigar wrote: There appears to be a lot of flexibility in list building for Craftworld. A previous poster indicated they don't know how to handle 80+ Orks, but one of my lists has 103 Craftworld models (2000 point Battalion detachment)
But, some of the Aspect Warriors I am struggling with, but this has been the case in 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th editions. Fire Dragons still are an easy choice, while I'm still not convinced about Banshees and Scorpions.
I'm currently struggling with Swooping Hawks. They can easily get within Rapid Fire range and unload 40 shots, but with S3, it definitely needs Doom cast on a target unit. They can go into cover with little issue for some protection, but I'm a bit torn on their efficiency.
Wave Serpents seem ok, but not great. I see folks posting twin Scatterlasers and Shuriken Cannon. When moving, you average 4 Scatterlaser hits and 2 Shuriken Cannon hits. Is that enough hits? It has some durability, but I don't think it will be difficult to destroy a Wave Serpent in 1-2 turns. Time will tell.
Folks seem to be writing off Wraithknights due to points. I'm curious if multiple Wraithknights have merit. I've got a 2000 point army consisting of 3 Wraithknights, Avatar, Farseer, and Spiritseer. While I can't play for a bit more (I'm out of country and w/o my army), it has been interesting seeing how armies are evolving and battle reports have been interesting - lists seem a bit small and a bit too 'take all comer'.
With regards to "take all comer", I think that might be the best list-building approach for now. With such a variety of army builds theoretically powerful at this point in the game, it seems to me like being prepared for a lot of different types of threats is the way to go.
TAC will be fine learning the rules, but I've got a feeling it will shift as other players find ways to overload a certain phase of the game and dominate. Nothing new, but with such a significant change in 8th edition, this may take just a bit longer than previous editions.
All I know is that once FW is done updating their points, I am totally running a spear head detachment of a Wraith Seer, 6 Wraith Lords, and a Wraith Knight for a 2k list. Just cause I can, and it will look cool as hell. An entire army of Giants. Lol.
So if so am understanding the rules right, if we use Ynnari our infantry get to double tap out of turn when we lose a unit with the same rule. And for that we get to pay more for our whole army?
Craft world Eldar are now legacy as empire and dwarves in AoS, so there is not much to say there. But I would expect maybe a better points set up where we could run the craft world only vs being penalized army wide for a rule that only affects infantry.
Uriels_Flame wrote: So if so am understanding the rules right, if we use Ynnari our infantry get to double tap out of turn when we lose a unit with the same rule. And for that we get to pay more for our whole army?
Craft world Eldar are now legacy as empire and dwarves in AoS, so there is not much to say there. But I would expect maybe a better points set up where we could run the craft world only vs being penalized army wide for a rule that only affects infantry.
Or am I missing something else?
How exactly are they legacy? They aren't being replaced by multiple other books, support hasn't been cut and large parts of the range haven't been removed.
Uriels_Flame wrote: So if so am understanding the rules right, if we use Ynnari our infantry get to double tap out of turn when we lose a unit with the same rule. And for that we get to pay more for our whole army?
Craft world Eldar are now legacy as empire and dwarves in AoS, so there is not much to say there. But I would expect maybe a better points set up where we could run the craft world only vs being penalized army wide for a rule that only affects infantry.
Or am I missing something else?
How exactly are they legacy? They aren't being replaced by multiple other books, support hasn't been cut and large parts of the range haven't been removed.
the internet is home to hyperbole you know.
They are not gone, just weak. I have a huge eldar army, but i also have several other armies of decent size and im fine shelving the my eldar unit we get a codex. now to figure out between csm, ultras, deathguard or admech who will be best from the indexes since i have 2k of each atleast. . Im thinking ultras or admech from what ive read.
Robin5t wrote:56 points for an MSU Storm Guardian unit without upgrades.
Could be a useful screening unit?
Personally I would go for regular Guardians as a screen rather than Storm Guardians. Storm Guardians don't look to be that much more effective in CC unless they get the charge, and vanilla Guardians have twice the number of shots and can take a Weapons Platform to tank more wounds.
They are not gone, just weak. I have a huge eldar army, but i also have several other armies of decent size and im fine shelving the my eldar unit we get a codex. now to figure out between csm, ultras, deathguard or admech who will be best from the indexes since i have 2k of each atleast. . Im thinking ultras or admech from what ive read.
I have to agree, part of me is happy to be shelving Eldar (at least until codex release) and playing my other main army which is Dark Eldar/Harlequins. The last time I had this situation was all the way back in mid 5th edition
As someone who has played (Craftworld) Eldar since 3d. Ed. and who shelved them for the majority of 6th and pretty much the entirety of 7th due to how powerful (read: so-good-they're-boring ) they where, I welcome alot of complaints about us being "weaker" in 8th.
Ofcouse we're weaker, it was unavoidable.
Perhaps now I can finally get some joy out of playing with my first 40k-army again!
(+7ppm for Dire Avenger Catapults must be a typo though. I welcome us being weaker, but I'll always be against bad internal balance.)
If the new rules will cause some 6th and 7th Codeci-bandwagoners to jump ship, well...so much better for the rest of us.
I have played 2 games as Eldar since the 8th rules have come out and haven't found them to be OP or weak. 1 win and 1 draw against tau and grey knights. The games felt balanced unlike 7th where i was consistently winning 9/10 games as eldar.
Going to play a game against orks next weekend, can't wait to try some strats against what i believe will be a huge horde coming at me. I believe strategy and luck play a way bigger role this time around. In 7th i would pick an army knowing it would table an ork player, now i am not sure.
I was looking at units in a vacuum before i played the games yesterday but now i see there is more to it. I am actually looking forward to trying a whole bunch of different things. Best to give it 3-6 months before you make any judgement calls.
I think we do need to give it some time before letting the doom and gloom set in, it's early, and there was no way we we're going to be as strong as in 7th so of course some things got toned down.
Out of curiosity to get an idea of how people are thinking about the new index and unit changes:
Strongest overall unit: best overall, most likely to be seen in competitive lists.
Most improved: benefits most from 8th, something now useable or with a new strength.
Worst off: worst in the index overall. Most changed for the worst.
Dark horse: the secret winner or less obviously strong unit.
For me:
Strongest overall: wave serpents
Improved: nightspinner or hemlocks
Worst off: avengers sadly
Dark horse: reapers and illic/rangers
Colgado wrote: For me:
Strongest overall: wave serpents
Improved: nightspinner or hemlocks
Worst off: avengers sadly
Dark horse: reapers and illic/rangers
Strongest overall: WarWalker x3 with Fortune
Improved: shining spears
Worst off: avengers ....bummer
Dark horse: Dark Reapers or MauganRa(dude can lay down some real fire)
I'm not too impressed with the aspect warriors over all with the new codex. Especially where in the case of fire dragon and scorpion exarch's their special ability is cancelled out by their special war-gear. The scorpion claw is -1 to hit so no sustained attacks on 6's. The fire dragon exarch ability to reroll 1's to hit is useless when equipped with heavy flamer. I do really like wave serpents, crimson hunters, wraithguard, war walkers, night spinner, farseers and warlocks. As well the humble shuriken cannon seems to be the go to weapon this edition being assault rather than heavy.
Wave Serpents are tough and very fast. especially when upgraded with vectored engines and star engines. Tough 7, 13 wounds with a 3+ would be good on its own but add to that 9 shurcannon shots, serpent shield, -1 to hit when advancing 2d6 seems like it might be one of the best transports in the game right now. Big plus is that it can fly. With pile ins the serpent can lock down up to two enemy units in assault without being bogged down itself. I think this is going to be a big asset for any infantry on board the transport getting out to shoot or assault.
Crimson Hunter: It's cheaper, faster and arguably just as durable as a predator with four lascannons. With crystal targeting matrix it hits on a 2+ on the move with 4 solid strength 8 guns is great. rerolling wounds on units that fly is just gravy.
War Walkers: two shurcannons seems to be the best bet for these guys. Movement 10 with 6 strength 6 shots at tough 6 with a 4+/5++ save seems great. Its a smaller profile so it should be able to get a cover save. Plus I think it can do a decent job tarpiting infantry squads in assault. Also has battle focus
Night Spinner: seems like a great backfield objective holder. Give it crystal targeting matrix and it gives you a mobile hidden light version of the sun cannon.
Wraithguard: man I think these dudes are going to work so well with wave serpents. Being able to leave combat and still shoot is great. Jump out of a serpent, blast a tank soul burst another thank then charge a third tank - whats not to like. They will die but 3 wounds a pop with a leadership 9 will mean a lot of dedicated fire power required to deal with them.
Farseers have a 5+ ward save now and rerolls for psychic dice with some of the best powers in the game.
Warlocks: cheep hq sources. I really do not like our troop choices, but with warlocks we can have a better time of filling out the other detachments for command points.
beachedwalrusau wrote: I have played 2 games as Eldar since the 8th rules have come out and haven't found them to be OP or weak. 1 win and 1 draw against tau and grey knights. The games felt balanced unlike 7th where i was consistently winning 9/10 games as eldar.
Going to play a game against orks next weekend, can't wait to try some strats against what i believe will be a huge horde coming at me. I believe strategy and luck play a way bigger role this time around. In 7th i would pick an army knowing it would table an ork player, now i am not sure.
I was looking at units in a vacuum before i played the games yesterday but now i see there is more to it. I am actually looking forward to trying a whole bunch of different things. Best to give it 3-6 months before you make any judgement calls.
In advocacy of them being weak, the 2 armies you played against might also be 2 of the weaker armies out atm. See how you do against AM, DE, or Necrons, perhaps Nids as well.
Kaughnor wrote: Crimson Hunter: It's cheaper, faster and arguably just as durable as a predator with four lascannons. With crystal targeting matrix it hits on a 2+ on the move with 4 solid strength 8 guns is great.
Crimson hunters can't take crystal targeting matrices. That's only for vehicles on a wave serpent chasis.
With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
TheNewBlood wrote: With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
I'd still take the wave serpent because of the serpent shield.
Kaughnor wrote: I'm not too impressed with the aspect warriors over all with the new codex. Especially where in the case of fire dragon and scorpion exarch's their special ability is cancelled out by their special war-gear. The scorpion claw is -1 to hit so no sustained attacks on 6's. The fire dragon exarch ability to reroll 1's to hit is useless when equipped with heavy flamer.
Or you could take Chainsabres and Firepikes. Where they work.
Kaughnor wrote: I'm not too impressed with the aspect warriors over all with the new codex. Especially where in the case of fire dragon and scorpion exarch's their special ability is cancelled out by their special war-gear. The scorpion claw is -1 to hit so no sustained attacks on 6's. The fire dragon exarch ability to reroll 1's to hit is useless when equipped with heavy flamer.
Or you could take Chainsabres and Firepikes. Where they work.
Biting Blade is also potentially tasty with Sustained Assault. I guess for Striking Scorpions the rule was semi-intentional to make the weaker weapons more attractive.
TheNewBlood wrote: With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
I'd still take the wave serpent because of the serpent shield.
I was wondering the same thing. Is there any reason to take a falcon instead of a wave serpent? It's far more expensive and far less durable than the serpent with half the transport capacity. The pulse laser is nice (I consider it a twin bright lance), but the extra firepower is not nearly strong enough to compensate for the durability loss and point increase.
Am I missing something here? I hope so, falcons are cool!
TheNewBlood wrote: With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
I don't actually see any reason to ever take a Falcon over a Serpent, it's just an objectively worse tank in every way that costs more for some reason. Unless I'm missing something literally the only thing the Falcon has going for it is the Pulse Laser (which is admittedly a very solid heavy weapon) and I guess technically it can fill a Heavy detachment slot (if you actually need that). Otherwise they have the same statline except the Serpent has one more wound (I guess its slightly larger?), the Serpent has double the transport capacity and the powerful Serpent Shield ability. If you look at something like a Pulse Laser/Missile Launcher loadout Falcon vs a Twin Missile Serpent you are paying 40 points for 1 more STR8 shot (which is about double what it should cost if you look at the price of EML or Bright Lances) and just straight up losing abilities. The points differential kinda matches up for an old Serpent (with standard loadout) vs an old Falcon with Holos, except now you just don't get any defensive abilities on the Falcon for the same cost. There are plenty of example of this floating around that people have pointed out for other armies, but either the Serpent is undercosted (remains to be seen) or the Falcon is seriously overcosted (by around 40 points it not more).
I think it's a combination of the Falcon being overpriced and the Waveserpent being underpriced.
The Falcon going down ~20 pts in cost while the Serpent going up ~20 pts in cost would probably be fitting.
I'd argue that the Pulselaser is a better weapon than the Twin-EML (I'll take AP-3 Damage 3 over AP-2 Damage D6 any day), but that the +1W, Serpent Shield and extra transport capacity is slightly better than one EML-shot, especially for a transport.
Rangers are nice but trying to take them as your core troops choice seems like a mistake.
We have alot of armies this edition with the capability to assault turn 1, turn 2 at the latest, and not just with ten or twenty fast models but entire hordes of infantry- like 40 to 60 models in your deployment zone by the end of turn 1. Having chaff units that can slow those units down is going to be paramount.
Another thing to consider is objectives. We no longer live in a world where min-squads of ObSec windriders can swoop onto an objective and contest or claim it right under the enemy's nose. The owner of an objective is determined by whomever has the most models on it, so short of tabling the opponent we're going to have a really hard time holding onto objectives with MSU.
1st blood is still a thing also, and now that the person who finished deploying all their units first can choose to go first, MSU armies will likely be going second most of the time.
It's true that you need to build a list around the Avatar in order to get the most out of him, but I think he's going to be a must-take for most competitive Eldar lists -his fearless bubble is just too key in this edition. I'm imagining something like at least 2 units of 20 storm guardians with the Avatar between them. That'll form a strong anchor that you can use to keep the enemy at arm's length while your more killy and fragile units do their thing.
On a side note, what are you guys' opinion on the Wraithlord? Is he still too generic at everything to have a real niche? ~100 points for a model with two flamers and decent survivability seems pretty nice as a counter-assault unit.
I just noticed that the Hemlock can use Conceal to give things firing at it a total -2 penalty to hit rolls.
I also was also comparing the Hemlock and the Crimson Hunter against a variety of targets. The Hemlock is actually at least marginally better against everything if you count Smite, and far better against things with less than 3 wounds. Its only real disadvantage is its range. Things can actually evade it by moving right up next to it since its guns don't reach as far as its minimum move, which is bad for dogfights. Jump infantry are of course a lot more dangerous to it just because it has to get in charge range of them to do anything.
Conceal only affects infantry and bikes, so the hemlock doesn't benefit from it. But our flyers look great. 2 tricks I can't wait to try out with them is move blocking foot infantry, and character sniping. Move them, 1 inch away from infantry so they have to move around the model, and if there is a character within 12 inch of the flyer, snipe them out as well Some other tricks, tactics and combos that might come useful:
- Rangers are going to be great at "pushing" away those 1st turn deep-strikers from your main force. War walkers can work as well. Hell, if you get first turn, you can use Scorpions and hawks too.
- Banshees + drain + sunrifle = -3 to hit on the turn you charge (-2 on their turn). Charge someting with 4+ WS, and they can't even hit you - Scorpions can be used to silence backfield artillery and shooty units. I think they are overpriced (they pay to much for their deployment trick), but it's a use. Also Scorpions+Karandras+Enhance=generating extra attacks on a 5+
- Wave serpents are going to be crucial, and really strong. They will protect your infantry form shooting and charges. You can cause most enemy units to practically skip a turn by charging them. And after you fall back you can still block enemy units, forcing them to move around, and potentially fail charges. I would give them the spirit stones instead of the star engines for that 6+++. Oh, and the shield can be useful to cause some mortal wounds to finish of that IK. And if you go MSU, you can use them to reduce the number of drops you have at deployment. You can load 2 min squads and 2 characters in 1 Serpent.
- Fire dragons: I would always take the flamer on the exarch. It will come in handy against hordes, and you can throw his meltabomb if you need the damage against monsters/vehicles.
Ok, that's it so far. Any other tricks, combos and tactics you guys found?
gery81 wrote: Conceal only affects infantry and bikes, so the hemlock doesn't benefit from it. But our flyers look great. 2 tricks I can't wait to try out with them is move blocking foot infantry, and character sniping. Move them, 1 inch away from infantry so they have to move around the model, and if there is a character within 12 inch of the flyer, snipe them out as well Some other tricks, tactics and combos that might come useful:
- Rangers are going to be great at "pushing" away those 1st turn deep-strikers from your main force. War walkers can work as well. Hell, if you get first turn, you can use Scorpions and hawks too.
- Banshees + drain + sunrifle = -3 to hit on the turn you charge (-2 on their turn). Charge someting with 4+ WS, and they can't even hit you - Scorpions can be used to silence backfield artillery and shooty units. I think they are overpriced (they pay to much for their deployment trick), but it's a use. Also Scorpions+Karandras+Enhance=generating extra attacks on a 5+
- Wave serpents are going to be crucial, and really strong. They will protect your infantry form shooting and charges. You can cause most enemy units to practically skip a turn by charging them. And after you fall back you can still block enemy units, forcing them to move around, and potentially fail charges. I would give them the spirit stones instead of the star engines for that 6+++. Oh, and the shield can be useful to cause some mortal wounds to finish of that IK. And if you go MSU, you can use them to reduce the number of drops you have at deployment. You can load 2 min squads and 2 characters in 1 Serpent.
Ok, that's it so far. Any other tricks, combos and tactics you guys found?
No, Conceal affects the psyker and nearby infantry and bikes.
gery81 wrote: Conceal only affects infantry and bikes, so the hemlock doesn't benefit from it. But our flyers look great. 2 tricks I can't wait to try out with them is move blocking foot infantry, and character sniping. Move them, 1 inch away from infantry so they have to move around the model, and if there is a character within 12 inch of the flyer, snipe them out as well Some other tricks, tactics and combos that might come useful:
- Rangers are going to be great at "pushing" away those 1st turn deep-strikers from your main force. War walkers can work as well. Hell, if you get first turn, you can use Scorpions and hawks too.
- Banshees + drain + sunrifle = -3 to hit on the turn you charge (-2 on their turn). Charge someting with 4+ WS, and they can't even hit you - Scorpions can be used to silence backfield artillery and shooty units. I think they are overpriced (they pay to much for their deployment trick), but it's a use. Also Scorpions+Karandras+Enhance=generating extra attacks on a 5+
- Wave serpents are going to be crucial, and really strong. They will protect your infantry form shooting and charges. You can cause most enemy units to practically skip a turn by charging them. And after you fall back you can still block enemy units, forcing them to move around, and potentially fail charges. I would give them the spirit stones instead of the star engines for that 6+++. Oh, and the shield can be useful to cause some mortal wounds to finish of that IK. And if you go MSU, you can use them to reduce the number of drops you have at deployment. You can load 2 min squads and 2 characters in 1 Serpent.
Ok, that's it so far. Any other tricks, combos and tactics you guys found?
No, Conceal affects the psyker and nearby infantry and bikes.
I stand corrected, I missed that. Hemlock looks even better
TheNewBlood wrote: With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
I'd still take the wave serpent because of the serpent shield.
I was wondering the same thing. Is there any reason to take a falcon instead of a wave serpent? It's far more expensive and far less durable than the serpent with half the transport capacity. The pulse laser is nice (I consider it a twin bright lance), but the extra firepower is not nearly strong enough to compensate for the durability loss and point increase.
Am I missing something here? I hope so, falcons are cool!
Did I miss something or did Falcons move to Heavy support choices? Is that only if they are taken on their own or does that count vs our Heavy slot for detachments?
TheNewBlood wrote: With a greater focus toward MSU with Eldar in this edition, do you think Falcons will be worth it? They seems to be very pricy compared to Wave Serpents, but the 6-model capacity might be just what is called for in certain squads.
I'd still take the wave serpent because of the serpent shield.
I was wondering the same thing. Is there any reason to take a falcon instead of a wave serpent? It's far more expensive and far less durable than the serpent with half the transport capacity. The pulse laser is nice (I consider it a twin bright lance), but the extra firepower is not nearly strong enough to compensate for the durability loss and point increase.
Am I missing something here? I hope so, falcons are cool!
Did I miss something or did Falcons move to Heavy support choices? Is that only if they are taken on their own or does that count vs our Heavy slot for detachments?
MinscS2 wrote: As someone who has played (Craftworld) Eldar since 3d. Ed. and who shelved them for the majority of 6th and pretty much the entirety of 7th due to how powerful (read: so-good-they're-boring ) they where, I welcome alot of complaints about us being "weaker" in 8th.
Ofcouse we're weaker, it was unavoidable.
Perhaps now I can finally get some joy out of playing with my first 40k-army again!
(+7ppm for Dire Avenger Catapults must be a typo though. I welcome us being weaker, but I'll always be against bad internal balance.)
If the new rules will cause some 6th and 7th Codeci-bandwagoners to jump ship, well...so much better for the rest of us.
Likewise, my Elder where shelved during 6th/7th. Looking forward to trying out a Iyanden Wraithguard / Wave Seprent list in 8th. They seem pretty balanced.
Did I miss something or did Falcons move to Heavy support choices? Is that only if they are taken on their own or does that count vs our Heavy slot for detachments?
No, they've always been Heavy support since the concept of Heavy Support (and the Force Org chart itself) was invented back in 3rd edition.
I played an 8th ed game with my Eldar vs Harlequins. Swooping Hawks are now forced to be MUCH closer to the enemy than before, to take advante of Rapid Fire 2 - but WOW they can pour out a TON of shots! Dark Reapers always hitting on 3+ is very handy since there are so many ways to modify to-hit.
Being able to re-roll ANY of the two dice for a psychic test (not just all the dice) is really handy. Roll a 5 and a 1? Reroll only the 1.
Hemlock outperformed the Crimson Hunter easily. Autohitting D23 shots always did more damage than the 2 bright lances and 2 pulse lasers. I didn't take the CH Exarch because... is re-rolling 1's worth some 50 points????
Does anyone else think the Fire Prism is a good jack-of-all trades with the 3 different modes of shooting?
I am liking what I see there for flexibility and cost.
The Focused and Lance modes are often significantly worse and are basically never better than a twin Bright Lance. The Dispersed mode is nearly as good as a twin Starcannon against single-wound models. It's not bad, but I'd be inclined to take a twin BL Serpent for 10 points less to get the extra durability and the Serpent Shield. If you use the Serpent Shield once to bolster your firepower against things you'd like to have the Dispersed Prism cannon for, the Serpent is probably going to end up killing more T4 single-wound stuff than the Prism over the course of the game and still has an extra wound and transport capacity. The main advantage of the Prism is its range, if that's a concern. I tend to find that I don't ever really have a use for more than 36".
What's everyone opinions on weapons for wraith guard? I was thinking of 5 with a spritseer in a wave serpent, but I can't decide between wraithcannons and d-scythes. The d- scythes seem really tempting for the overwatch and still being able to do a decent amount of damage against vehicles, but the wraith cannons seem more anti tank focused. Leaning towards the scythes because of the versatility.
The price hike for Aspects across the board is really frustrating considering that they have mostly been nerfed. I thought that the 7th ed codex had the best rules for Aspects since 2nd ed. They weren't OP (the Aspect Shrine was cheddar though) and every Aspect was useful in the right context. Even Banshees were OK on paper for their cost. Sad to see things go backwards because apparently GW had to punish Eldar because of D Strength idiocy and Windriders in the 7th ed codex.
I've been having a lot of success with Guardians, Serpents, and flyers so far. It seems solid, but unfortunately there's not a whole lot else I feel very tempted to use.
Dionysodorus wrote: I've been having a lot of success with Guardians, Serpents, and flyers so far. It seems solid, but unfortunately there's not a whole lot else I feel very tempted to use.
It's true that you need to build a list around the Avatar in order to get the most out of him, but I think he's going to be a must-take for most competitive Eldar lists -his fearless bubble is just too key in this edition. I'm imagining something like at least 2 units of 20 storm guardians with the Avatar between them. That'll form a strong anchor that you can use to keep the enemy at arm's length while your more killy and fragile units do their thing.
I'm coming back this edition, so I'm a little out of practice. But I agree.
If you're going vanilla Eldar, I think the Avatar looks very strong. If you're not taking him, you may as well take Ynnari.
Dionysodorus wrote: I've been having a lot of success with Guardians, Serpents, and flyers so far. It seems solid, but unfortunately there's not a whole lot else I feel very tempted to use.
I'd maybe add Rangers to pick out heroes.
I've thought about it, but it takes a lot of points of Rangers to do anything. You need more than 7 to expect to kill something with a T3 W3 5+ statline. And if you [i]don't[i] kill the character you'll often have just wasted your time since you won't have any other way to put wounds on them. They're also pretty vulnerable if you don't go first since they have to come in before the first turn, and by including them in your list you make it less likely that you go first since their unit price is below the average. There are definitely matchups where Rangers would be useful, but there are many more where they're just not going to cut it. Most characters are either too beefy or too easy to hide, and most armies are going to have a way to reach out and smash your T3 20 ppw Rangers. In most cases -- when you're not up against lots of Conscripts and Commissars -- I think you're probably better off trying to assassinate things with the flyers even if sometimes your opponent can prevent that. I've also been intending to rely on the Yncarne to pick things out in CC if necessary, but in the games I've played so far I haven't needed him for that.
This below is the only list I have managed to put together that I might slightly like, with "some" shooting to be able to get rid of bodies, some Antitank and some mele.
Finding it incredibly hard to put something together as everything adds up quickly. We are very badly used to 81 points scatbikes or 300 WK. What worries me more is that other armies have not really had the point bump unless going full vehicle.
kaintxu wrote: This below is the only list I have managed to put together that I might slightly like, with "some" shooting to be able to get rid of bodies, some Antitank and some mele.
Finding it incredibly hard to put something together as everything adds up quickly. We are very badly used to 81 points scatbikes or 300 WK. What worries me more is that other armies have not really had the point bump unless going full vehicle.
This actually looks like a very solid list. Nothing in particular that I would take out or remove, though I'm interested as to why you went with Eldrad instead of a regular Farseer and two squads of Rangers rather than Scorpions.
It's interesting that Wave Serpents are about as much points as they were in the previous edition, albeit with a more limited loadout. Do Wave Serpents strike anyone as undercosted, or are they noticeably less durable than previously?
If you're going vanilla Eldar, I think the Avatar looks very strong. If you're not taking him, you may as well take Ynnari.
Can vanilla Eldar take the Yncarne? She's still an Aeldari model. Heck, if your Avatar of Khaine bites it I think the Yncarne can get summoned to his death spot, fluff be damned.
This actually looks like a very solid list. Nothing in particular that I would take out or remove, though I'm interested as to why you went with Eldrad instead of a regular Farseer and two squads of Rangers rather than Scorpions.
It's interesting that Wave Serpents are about as much points as they were in the previous edition, albeit with a more limited loadout. Do Wave Serpents strike anyone as undercosted, or are they noticeably less durable than previously?
I went Eldrad as he can cast 3 powers to the farseers 2, so that means, he will be casting smite, doom and guide "consistently" as he also has a wee bonus to casting. He also has a better invul and in a pinch hits better in c/c
Is not so much that Wave serpents are undercosted, but our other vehicles are over costed. Wave serpent has more wounds and the serpent shield, which makes it more durable. On the offensive side, you can equip it to make almost as much damage as a Falcon (if you add in the serpent shield you end up doing as much) and it gives you transport of 12. All this for less points and you can always add in the star engines as even if you have to advance and get a -1 to hit, it makes you a wee bit more survibable.
For undercosted vehicles have a look at the SM Twin assault cannon razorbacks. Each deals 12 S6 AP-1 shots compared to our 9S6 shots, and while a bit less resilient, it costs 50 points less. you can get 3 of them for our 2, so that's just 2 less transport capacity and no serpent shield but 4 more total wounds, and 36 S6 AP-1 shots to our 18.
Whoever (FLG guys and others) tested this edition, didn't give much thoughts to these things. Yes Eldar needed nerfing on some places, but not what they have done.
ke the Yncarne? She's still an Aeldari model. Heck, if your Avatar of Khaine bites it I think the Yncarne can get summoned to his death spot, fluff be damned.
Yes you can now take Yncarne with regular Eldar due to the Aeldari Keyword, but he will not be buffing any units around him with his aura or spells.
I feel like if you play power levels, a lot of the overcosted stuff becomes more reasonably priced. 10 dire avengers becomes 6 power, which is roughly 120 points, instead of their 170 base for 10. Maybe it's just dire avengers.
Kind of weird how power level gaming just means you take all the upgrades. It's a big difference for harlequin units. Are their power levels balanced around the maxed load out, or bare models?
Also I doubt the Yncarne is really worth it in Aeldari. It's a big downer that in Ynnari he's not on the board turn 1, in Aeldari you also lose a lot of his buffing potential and his spells are less potent.
I love CWE but these Guardians in Wave Serpents builds look kinda boring.
Do you mean Wraith'Knights' or 'Lords'? For WKs, I am going vanilla with 2 Heavy Wraithcannons. They seem pretty solid in melee with Titanic Feet or Wraithbone fists, so equipping the Sword is only really great for the 5++, or if you just really, really want to punch other Knights.
Since they can leave combat and still shoot, it just seems that you get more out of them with big guns.
I'm not a fan of the Suncannon because of the cost and unreliable number of shots. The 5++ is nice, but considering that even AP -2 weapons give them a 5+ armour, I really don't see it being necessary.
Especially when you can get a 4++ from a Void Shield generator, or a 5++ for a landing pad, and a Farseer can Fortune them for a 5+ to ignore wounds.
I'm not sure about WLs though. Shuricannons are the only Assault weapons they can take (not counting flamers and shuricats).
All other weapons give them -1 to hit if they move, and we are talking about Eldar. Sitting still for us just doesn't seem right.
Here's some from 2 games, Genocult and Tau:
- Soulburst is very good and is way ahead of Battlefocus, and is required for Eldar to get their points back.
- Shuriken cannons are awesome, with new cover saves you can never have enough of them.
- Farseer (on jetbike) is a very reliable caster and can do way more than other HQ choices. Smite alone can finish off important units. With 4++ and Ghosthelm, up to 22 move and 6 wounds Skyrunner Farseer is going to be my autoinclude for most armies.
- Windriders are back to working in wolfpacks, suffer from lack of 3+ save, sure, but 2 wounds help with that. Soulbursting shuriken spam ftw. They are still that kind of general purpose troops which not all armies have.
- Serpent is nearly not as tough as people think (really comes down to luck as even crack missiles can kill it or cripple in one turn), although still very good for it's points.
- Vypers with shuriken cannons are pretty cool to cover jetbike character, shoot well and are a good choice if you need those extra 2 FA slots for Outrider Detachment.
- Soulbursting banshees with all-powerswords and rending pistols, with Harlequins-level movement and extra charge distance murder peasants well enough, with Fortune and penalty to enemies WS they can also hold a little longer than before. Pretty decent countercharge unit against various berserkers dropping '9 near you.
- Crimson Hunter is a very good alternative to Dragons and is the best "main battle tank" of the army if you need to cripple/destroy a vehicle or snipe a character.
- Autarch is cool for re-rolls but I won't include him instead of Farseer. However, for larger points games, as you can stick more and more units into his '6 bubble while your Farseer is busy buffing more important things he might be a good second-in-command. I used good old jetbike/melta/lance/mandiblasters, it's okay, but he can't do much before he charges while Farseer can cast spells right away.
Notice that Mandiblasters work only on INFANTRY. Meaning even stuff that looks like infantry (tau suits for example) is immune to Mandiblasters. Speaking about poor Scorpions, eh.
- Wraithlord suffers greatly from lack of attacks and enemy fall backing from him. Against infantry, he's all but useless as he lacks Wraithknight's extra d3 attacks with lower AP option. He also nomnomnoms all crack missiles since now they wound him on 3s. It's more like a heavy weapon platfrom with counter-charge option to supplement War Walkers I think.
- Spiders without DS rely on terrain to survive. So be sure that your table has enough +1 to Infantry where they could jump around and drill. They're more like a harrasing unit now than general purpose one. For general purpose dakka, windriders are more reliable with their 16+6 move and 24 range shuriken cannons.
- Days when you had to always carry a transport with Fire Dragons are gone. Put enough missiles, lances and pulse lasers to the job, top with Doom and enemy vehicle will go down. Picking highest result from two dice is good, but it's not *that* good.
Things I want to try:
- Illic. For 88 pts he seems like he can actually snipe some gak.
- Maugan Ra. For a cost of 5 windrider jetbikes with 15 shuriken cannon shots, Maugan Ra does 8 but at 2+ re-roll 1's, with -1 AP by default and -3 ap on 6s, with long enough range; and since Maugetar is Assault, and he always shoots on 2+, he can even move-advance-shoot on 2+. And he works as Autarch for Reapers.
- Reapers with Exarches armed with Tempest Launchers, 2-3 squads 7' away from each other in case something would want to drop near them and kill one, maybe with their FL. Seem like decent and general purpose unit - split fire peasant-killing fireballs from Tempests, put crack missiles into vehicles or use anti-infantry missiles, sit in 2+ save in cover.
Aside from War Walkers it's not like there's anything else worth taking as a HS choice, sadly. \
And last but not least: it is important to count your units to deploy, as in MP one who finishes deploying first takes the first turn. And I think for Eldar it might be better to stick to smaller amount for units for maximum chance of alpha strike.
admironheart wrote: so in a 2000 point game how many units do you think we Eldar should aim?
Most of the elder lists seem to have lots of MSU.
Not sure since army compositions differ (army with transports would have less), but I was thinking to shrink my force to 5 or 5+1 deep striking unit on 1000 pts.
Sadly, eldar deep striking units consist of 17 pts models per a flashlight, super expensive snipers without AP or Scorpions. Meh.
This sums up my opinion on 8th edition Eldar. They're not Eldar enough and I hate it. I have a Guard army for when I want to play Guard...
Guard shoot like Eldar which moved. I mean, Baneblades hit on 5s if they moved or something?
Assault lances became DE shtick, but we can easily incorporate a few Ravagers into our armies no problem.
I'm not liking jetbike farseers. They're so expensive compared to normal farseers. Seems like just taking Eldrad is better.
Eldrad can't jump 22 behind enemy commander and soulburst-smite his ass. Eldrad can't fall back 16. He can't hit flyers with a witchblade. He can't Fortune his own transport or follow a mech force fast enough.
And actually, for his price you can almost take 2 farseers on foot or Farseer + Yvraine.
I started my Eldar army 2 weeks ago, so I am quite new to them. I have 2 games under my belt with them so far.
Game 1-
Played the Eldar start collecting VS the CSM start collecting.
We both got down to one wound remaining in out army before I barely won ( 1 wound left on the fire prism vs his last CSM marine in CC ). Shuricannon bikes shredded most of his CSM, the fire prism focused on his Helbrute, and the Farseer danced with his Termi sorcerer. It was a pretty fun quick game (25 PL). Having fly on all of these units won the game IMO.
Game 2
Had more stuff assembled so this game was a bit bigger (50 PL). Also played against CSM. Tabled him turn 4.
I ran the Jetseer, 3 Scannon bikes, the Fire prism, 5 Dire avengers, 5 Wraithblades w/ swords, 5 wraithguard with wraith cannons, and a Wraith lord with EML, Glaive, and twin flamers.
Jetseer smite did work, Shuricannon bikes removed a 10 man CSM unit in 1 turn with backup from the jetseer, Wraithlord and wraithblades had to deal with a deep striking unit of terminators and a termi lord, dire avengers got charged by a deep striking unit of warp talons (cant over watch against these) so they fell back and got absolutely shredded by the wraith guard nearby, and the fire prism kept hosing a unit of cultist camping an objective across the table.
My opponent did mess up a rule about using command points to attack first before the charging unit (Wraithblades) gets to go, so I lost 2 more wraith blades than I should have by letting him go first ( we both mis-read the rule).
Overall I am liking Eldar in 8th, its a huge change from my other armies.
Titanicus wrote: If you really want to field troops I think the best option right now is rangers they offer a tactical advantage with sniper rifles that really nothing else in our army brings and also are way better than Avengers for only 3ppm more.
Readers also a finally good unit their damage output is just really good for their points and can really deal death, gives those primaris marines a really bad day.
Mayk0l wrote: Kind of weird how power level gaming just means you take all the upgrades. It's a big difference for harlequin units. Are their power levels balanced around the maxed load out, or bare models?
All Power Levels in 8th are calculated as such: the median Points cost of the unit (the mid-value between no upgrades and max upgrades) divided by ~20.
So to answer your question more specifically, this means that any unit's Power cost is "balanced" around the mid point of their Points cost. So a unit with no upgrades at all would have a Power cost directly related to their points cost, for example, whereas a unit like Dire Avengers with a big swing in how expensive they can get (with extra models, equipment etc) will have a relatively higher Power cost as a result.
Mayk0l wrote: Kind of weird how power level gaming just means you take all the upgrades. It's a big difference for harlequin units. Are their power levels balanced around the maxed load out, or bare models?
All Power Levels in 8th are calculated as such: the median Points cost of the unit (the mid-value between no upgrades and max upgrades) divided by ~20.
So to answer your question more specifically, this means that any unit's Power cost is "balanced" around the mid point of their Points cost. So a unit with no upgrades at all would have a Power cost directly related to their points cost, for example, whereas a unit like Dire Avengers with a big swing in how expensive they can get (with extra models, equipment etc) will have a relatively higher Power cost as a result.
Dire Avengers specifically are a bad example because their point cost is so bizarrely high and their power cost seems to assume that they actually cost 10 points per model, weapon included, but yes this is generally how it works. The Eldar tanks are absolutely terrible in power games because of all the upgrades they can take.
I also don't think we have any particular reason to think that the power cost is determined only by the minimum and maximum prices for the unit. I am not sure that there is an algorithm you can apply to get the power costs from the point costs, though that may be because point costs continued to change in development after power costs were determined. For example, I'd have to check later but I'm pretty sure the Jetbike HQ choices just never hit 20 points per power no matter how many upgrades you give them.
Mayk0l wrote: Kind of weird how power level gaming just means you take all the upgrades. It's a big difference for harlequin units. Are their power levels balanced around the maxed load out, or bare models?
All Power Levels in 8th are calculated as such: the median Points cost of the unit (the mid-value between no upgrades and max upgrades) divided by ~20.
So to answer your question more specifically, this means that any unit's Power cost is "balanced" around the mid point of their Points cost. So a unit with no upgrades at all would have a Power cost directly related to their points cost, for example, whereas a unit like Dire Avengers with a big swing in how expensive they can get (with extra models, equipment etc) will have a relatively higher Power cost as a result.
Dire Avengers specifically are a bad example because their point cost is so bizarrely high and their power cost seems to assume that they actually cost 10 points per model, weapon included, but yes this is generally how it works. The Eldar tanks are absolutely terrible in power games because of all the upgrades they can take.
I also don't think we have any particular reason to think that the power cost is determined only by the minimum and maximum prices for the unit. I am not sure that there is an algorithm you can apply to get the power costs from the point costs, though that may be because point costs continued to change in development after power costs were determined. For example, I'd have to check later but I'm pretty sure the Jetbike HQ choices just never hit 20 points per power no matter how many upgrades you give them.
That formula comes straight from GW designers - they explained it in a Facebook thread, it's a known thing. Check the giant 8th edition post for the Facebook roundups, should be in there.
That's the reason I used them as an example, though - the Dire Avengers' weird difference in points cost vs. power level is due to their number of options. My point was that units with lots of options have Power levels that can seem wildly different from their Points cost, due to the median-based equation.
Jambles wrote: That formula comes straight from GW designers - they explained it in a Facebook thread, it's a known thing. Check the giant 8th edition post for the Facebook roundups, should be in there.
That's the reason I used them as an example, though - the Dire Avengers' weird difference in points cost vs. power level is due to their number of options. My point was that units with lots of options have Power levels that can seem wildly different from their Points cost, due to the median-based equation.
I'm not sure that it matters very much what they said when anyone can just check some points and power costs for various units and see that it's not what they actually did. Like I said, maybe this is what they did using an older version of the point costs but this is not now a good description of the relationship between power and points. You can't really do better now than: "mostly they took a somewhat-upgraded unit and divided its cost by 20, but some units are pretty off". Obviously it works if you allow enough slop in "~20", but at that point you're being so imprecise that it's just misleading to talk as if it's related to particular upgrade choices.
No, Dire Avengers' weird difference is not due to their number of options. They actually have many fewer options than many other units. The cheapest a 5-man DA squad can get is 85 points. The most expensive it can get is 102 points. Their power cost suggests a "median price" of 60 points. Now, if for some reason you're even counting the avenger catapults as an "upgrade", then the minimum cost is 50 points -- 60 is still not very close to the average. But of course this isn't what they're doing anywhere else -- the Crimson Hunter's power cost suggests that it is 180 points when it is actually always 183 points (it has no options). But 40 of those points are in mandatory Bright Lances so if the "unupgraded" price means "without wargear" then we would expect the power cost to be 8. You can also look at the Terminus Ultra for the ultimate example of the power cost clearly taking mandatory wargear into account. Edit: Oh, here's a better example in the Eldar index -- 3 Dark Reapers costs between 99 and 115 points. The power cost of 5 makes sense there for an average cost of ~109.5 rounding to 100 -- this is a unit where the rule of thumb works well. But if you don't count wargear in the unupgraded price they're going to be 15 points.
Jambles wrote: That formula comes straight from GW designers - they explained it in a Facebook thread, it's a known thing. Check the giant 8th edition post for the Facebook roundups, should be in there.
That's the reason I used them as an example, though - the Dire Avengers' weird difference in points cost vs. power level is due to their number of options. My point was that units with lots of options have Power levels that can seem wildly different from their Points cost, due to the median-based equation.
I'm not sure that it matters very much what they said when anyone can just check some points and power costs for various units and see that it's not what they actually did. Like I said, maybe this is what they did using an older version of the point costs but this is not now a good description of the relationship between power and points. You can't really do better now than: "mostly they took a somewhat-upgraded unit and divided its cost by 20, but some units are pretty off". Obviously it works if you allow enough slop in "~20", but at that point you're being so imprecise that it's just misleading to talk as if it's related to particular upgrade choices.
No, Dire Avengers' weird difference is not due to their number of options. They actually have many fewer options than many other units. The cheapest a 5-man DA squad can get is 85 points. The most expensive it can get is 102 points. Their power cost suggests a "median price" of 60 points. Now, if for some reason you're even counting the avenger catapults as an "upgrade", then the minimum cost is 50 points -- 60 is still not very close to the average. But of course this isn't what they're doing anywhere else -- the Crimson Hunter's power cost suggests that it is 180 points when it is actually always 183 points (it has no options). But 40 of those points are in mandatory Bright Lances so if the "unupgraded" price means "without wargear" then we would expect the power cost to be 8. You can also look at the Terminus Ultra for the ultimate example of the power cost clearly taking mandatory wargear into account.
I'm just relaying the information as it's been presented to us, you can argue all you like but I'm not making any value statements here. GW told us the system they used to determine power levels for units, and it is this. Yeah it seems pretty imprecise and inconsistent, I agree.
Jambles wrote: GW told us the system they used to determine power levels for units, and it is this.
They told us that system, but they did not use it. Stop acting like they did when it's already been proven false.
Woah, easy there, I'm not trying to act like anything - I didn't mean to come across like I thought it was gospel. I never said it was consistently applied, in fact I said the opposite, just above you here.
FWIW, it definitely was used at least for some units in the indices - I've seen people doing the math here on Dakka, and it works for most of the units in the Ork index from my own list-building.
So this is my attempt at an aspect warrior list, mostly because my eldar army is almost all aspects already. The only wraith I own is a wraith lord, so i didn't include wraith guard or blades. It's probably really unoptimized, but I tried to mostly use what i already had. Warlock will probably jump between the reapers and the rangers, concealing as needed. Other farseers are going to guide, doom and fortune whoever needs it.
So this is my attempt at an aspect warrior list, mostly because my eldar army is almost all aspects already.
I wouldn't autoinclude Executioner for Banshees concidering it's points. It gives them slight edge against multi wound models, but I think the squad works better against regular models. I'm not great at math but reducing your hit chance for better wound chance for a price of almost extra model doesn't seem worth it.
Why I still people going for dual farseer when each spell can. Let be attempted once?
- Serpent is nearly not as tough as people think (really comes down to luck as even crack missiles can kill it or cripple in one turn), although still very good for it's points.
I'm really curious about your experiences with this given that multi damage shots only do 1 damage to a Serpent at a time. I mean that's effectively requiring 13 Krak Missiles a turn to drop one (which isn't an unreal number or anything).
So this is my attempt at an aspect warrior list, mostly because my eldar army is almost all aspects already.
I wouldn't autoinclude Executioner for Banshees concidering it's points. It gives them slight edge against multi wound models, but I think the squad works better against regular models. I'm not great at math but reducing your hit chance for better wound chance for a price of almost extra model doesn't seem worth it.
Why I still people going for dual farseer when each spell can. Let be attempted once?
Even in MP you can still spam Smite.
Yeah, I don't really like any of the banshee exarch weapons. Not a fan of the reduced ap on the mirror blades and triskele. The triskele isn't even a pistol shooting weapon, so you can't fire it in melee. I might just keep the power sword on the exarch
- Serpent is nearly not as tough as people think (really comes down to luck as even crack missiles can kill it or cripple in one turn), although still very good for it's points.
I'm really curious about your experiences with this given that multi damage shots only do 1 damage to a Serpent at a time. I mean that's effectively requiring 13 Krak Missiles a turn to drop one (which isn't an unreal number or anything).
Multi-damage weapons can do more than 1 damage to a serpent. The serpent shield only reduces damage by 1, not reduces it to 1.
I'm really curious about your experiences with this given that multi damage shots only do 1 damage to a Serpent at a time. I mean that's effectively requiring 13 Krak Missiles a turn to drop one (which isn't an unreal number or anything).
Multi-damage weapons can do more than 1 damage to a serpent. The serpent shield only reduces damage by 1, not reduces it to 1.
Super fair point - reading often helps. That said I still think they're very durable, especially if upgraded with Vectored engines.
PUFNSTUF wrote: Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?
I haven't used it, but it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Since vehicle facing is no longer a thing, it basically has a 16" radius threat circle around it. Combined with the move distance and pivot after moving, you should be able to hit something important every turn, especially if your opponent is moving out to mid field to grab objectives or play the mission.
PUFNSTUF wrote: Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?
I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.
PUFNSTUF wrote: Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?
I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.
Two of them is a huge LD-1 bubble too. There's a lot of potential LD shenanigans to play with when you can cover half a guys army at once. That plus horrify, and maybe some Dark Eldar allies and you could looking at -3 LD to multiple units a turn. There's got to be something cool to do with that.,
PUFNSTUF wrote: Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?
I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.
How survivable have they been with the -2 to hit with conceal up? Do they usually live the game, are ignored, or targeted immediately? Two together must be nice but a good chunk of points.
PUFNSTUF wrote: Anyone try the hemlock yet in 8th? How did you do with its short range?
I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.
Two of them is a huge LD-1 bubble too. There's a lot of potential LD shenanigans to play with when you can cover half a guys army at once. That plus horrify, and maybe some Dark Eldar allies and you could looking at -3 LD to multiple units a turn. There's got to be something cool to do with that.,
There is, the Shadowseers Hallucinagen Grenades forces the target to take a Leadership check and D3 mortal wounds if they fail.
Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.
Dionysodorus wrote: Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.
I haven't tried it yet in any games, but even one mortal wound in a morale test is great if you can tag that unit with a Death Jester (he doesn't even need to do any damage himself). Then you can choose the model that dies. Great way to get rid of a power fist or equivalent.
Dionysodorus wrote: Horrify is a pretty bad power. Morale tests almost never matter for multi-wound units, so -1 Ld is at best worth 1 mortal wound in a morale test, and I don't think there's anything else you can do where -1 Ld has a very significant effect on expected wounds.
I haven't tried it yet in any games, but even one mortal wound in a morale test is great if you can tag that unit with a Death Jester (he doesn't even need to do any damage himself). Then you can choose the model that dies. Great way to get rid of a power fist or equivalent.
Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.
Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.
My quick thoughts on this are that Horrify can be cast 18" while warlock Smite is only 9".
Farseer_V2 wrote: I've been playing with 2 and so far I've been very pleased. Fixed damage 2 is nice and honestly with the pivot, move, pivot they're pretty easy to keep in range.
How survivable have they been with the -2 to hit with conceal up? Do they usually live the game, are ignored, or targeted immediately? Two together must be nice but a good chunk of points.
So far they've hung tough. My current list is 4 Serpents and 2 Hemlocks which presents a decently tough exterior to my opponent. The primary reason I run 2 is I really like the fixed damage of their scythes - 4D3 on target is nasty, especially if combined with doom. I also find I really like the spread of conceal sometimes - so if one is in position to help out some of my guardians and the other isn't I've got options, and even if one's already cast conceal, you can still cast reveal which is a useful power. The other thing I've found nice about 2 is having some extra chances to deny every now and again.
Remember, they still have to actually fail the morale test. Horrify only has a 1/6 chance of causing the morale test to fail at all, if it's in question. The basic problem for Horrify is: why wouldn't you just use Smite instead? Horrify is targetable but has much less of an impact. If you can Smite the powerfist unit and kill something then it takes its next morale test at -1 and there's an extra dead model. Anything that can kill a single model is hugely better than Horrify.
My quick thoughts on this are that Horrify can be cast 18" while warlock Smite is only 9".
Sure, and Smite also isn't targetable so maybe you want to hit something that's not the nearest unit. The point is just that the expected value of Horrify is very, very low. Warlock Smite is bad so if you have a Warlock who only knows Horrify maybe it will sometimes make sense to use Horrify, but surely you're just going to have him use Conceal/Reveal or Enhance/Drain instead, right? Why are you bringing the Warlock at all when you could bring an extra Dark Reaper or an extra Shining Spear or a couple extra Warp Spiders and be very likely to not just force the unit to take its next morale test at -1 but also to kill a model?
Again, the probability that a successful cast of Horrify actually makes the difference between the unit passing and failing its morale test is at most 1/6. It expects to kill at most 1 model, and that's if you've otherwise killed so much of the unit that it is guaranteed to fail its morale test, and in this case of course your opponent has the option to pay 2 CP to ignore both the wounds they'd ordinarily take from the morale test failing as well as the extra from Horrify. In a more typical case you probably only expect about 1/2 a wound from a successful cast of Horrify (a successful Smite expects 2.3 wounds from its direct effect alone, and of course then forces the unit to take its next morale test at an average of -2).
Leadership debuffs are a nice bonus. The Hemlock's Mindshock Pods are probably going to come in handy occasionally. The two point grenade upgrade to some DE sergeants might be an okay choice. But they're almost never worth using a psychic power for. It's striking that the Hemlock doesn't actually appear to pay much for its tacked-on ability to cast a guaranteed Horrify on every single enemy unit within 12". It's just not a powerful effect, and most of the time you would gladly trade a cast of Horrify for a Bolter.
Fruzzle wrote: I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.
They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....
I the hemlock is on of our stronger units, together with serpents.
The question I keep coming back to is, what to put inside the serpents...
Firedragons/banshees/ gardians. If you are Ynari - go with dragons every time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Serpants are actually much better used as places to mount your heavy weapons. They are our most durable platforms and a 5 point upgrade (CTM) allows you to avoid the penalty for moving with heavies if you shoot the closest unit. More often than not you are going to want to shoot the closest unit anyways OR you can use your huge move to make the unit you want to shoot the closest unit to you. In any case you can just stay still to get full effect out of your heavies. I'm thinking star cannons and EML are going to be the best weapons to put on serpents.
Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.
"Conceal: Your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target the psyker or friendly Asuryani Infantry or Asuryani Biker units within 3" of the psker until your next Psychic phase."
It works on the Hemlock itself, but only infantry/biker units in the bubble.
Fruzzle wrote: I think 1 hemlock is the sweet spot, as the second cant cast conceal.
They're pretty survivable between fly, conceal and spirit stones. also their degrading doesnt really affect them right? they auto hit anyway....
Conceal doesn't help hemlocks. They aren't infantry or bikers.
The rules specifically state it affects the psyker AND infantry and bikers.
exactly this, which mean 1 hemlock can be concealed.
Also, it's a great unit to cast conceal with as it's so big.
About my what to put in serpents, I'm leaning more towards wraithguard. I understand why people want dragons as they die faster, but playing with mechdar I think I'll have limited opportunities to use the ADD from my own unit dying as there is unlikely to be a none vehicle nearby.
I keep coming back to skipping the troop slot entirely and just taking vanguard+flyer.
What do you think is a good a good second flyer; Crimson, Exarch or otherwise or some dark eldar flyer?
I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).
It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".
I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).
It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".
I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.
So... what detachment do you use that this is legal in?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I assume this has been mentioned, but 3x 10 Dark Reapers in Serpents + Farseer(guide and fortune), Warlock (conceal) and Yvraine (one unit fires twice(the guided one).
It's 3 drops so will probably go first doing 40 crack missiles or 80 starswarm missiles at 48".
I think you can fit in Maugan Ra to reroll 1s and add another 8 S6 shots to the serpents 27.
So... what detachment do you use that this is legal in?
Heavy support for 4cp auxiliary HQ for -1cp (-2 if Ra fits)
I'm having trouble on deciding what eldar deep striking unit to take. I want at least one to be a back field harasser, so i was deciding between striking scorpions and swooping hawks. I like the fact the scorpions are melee focused, so they can keep tying up an artillery or vehicle in combat, but the hawks are cheaper and are guaranteed to do hits the turn they come in. On the flip side, their gun just looks horrible to me. I mean, a RF2 lasgun? really? Is it as bad as i'm thinking?
Boogles wrote: I'm having trouble on deciding what eldar deep striking unit to take. I want at least one to be a back field harasser, so i was deciding between striking scorpions and swooping hawks. I like the fact the scorpions are melee focused, so they can keep tying up an artillery or vehicle in combat, but the hawks are cheaper and are guaranteed to do hits the turn they come in. On the flip side, their gun just looks horrible to me. I mean, a RF2 lasgun? really? Is it as bad as i'm thinking?
It's a lot better than you are thinking considering how cheap they are 170 points to drop 40 str 3 shots on something. If they are T3 or a small unit of t5's thats gonna hurt. The sunrifle is interesting to -1 to hit for the enemy unit if they take a wound from it. If you planned on charging them that turn with something they would be attacking back at a much reduced effect. swooping hawks have the fly rule to so they can leave combat no problem. Seem to be a good anti infantry unit that provides a lot of mobility.
So my pointy eared friends I've been trying to work on a list though I can't finalise it till we get our forgeworld book.
Farseer jetbikes spear
3 Jetbikes 3 shuricannons
3 Jetbikes 3 shuricannons
3 Shinning Spears star lance
3 Shinning Spears star lance
Hemlock
Crimson Hunter Exarch starcannons
Vampire Hunter (the dual pulsar, Phoenix missiles and scatter laser one)
I'm sitting at 1088 so I left 900 points for the vampire in previous editions it was 730 and a bit overpriced so in hoping it's still 900 or less. I'm assuming the vampire will primarily being anti very big things tho8gh some additional firepower with the missiles and scatter laser for shooting squads.
I'm not sure if ynnari or craftworld is better. The extra run helps me stay mobile and I don't have a ton of units that can soulburst 5 only unless the vampire lets me fit another bike squad in.
Assuming the vampire brings anti big thing and a little of marine equivalent killing should I be able to not get tabled and maybe have a fighting chance? I know the model count is super low as I'm taking a low and 2 flyers and even then my cheapest model is more than 30 points.
This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
djones520 wrote: This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.
The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.
djones520 wrote: This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.
The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.
Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.
But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.
(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)
djones520 wrote: This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.
The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.
Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.
But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.
(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)
Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.
djones520 wrote: This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.
The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.
Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.
But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.
(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)
Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.
Yeah, but the extra 18pts/gun is putting me off recommending just loading everything up with starcannons, and they're still Heavy. When we're talking a tank tank with the option for a CTM who can flit about in best-of-both-worlds mobile-shooty-zone (or Wraithknights who just don't care) that's one thing, but War Walkers and Vypers who can't and aren't really tough enough to be trying to kit out all the way, or Wrathlords that really want to be advancing, or Guardians who are sacrificing huge amounts of shuriken-catapult fire by trying to sit back and not shoot, are another.
Of course all this goes out the window if you're playing PL. Starcannons for everyone there.
djones520 wrote: This is a 2k list I'm running in a small tournament tomorrow. So far the only games I've played has been against a Knight list, and quite frankly, I don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with 4 knights, unless you decide to do nothing but spam Fire Dragons.
Anyways, I'm hoping this is something that can deal with most armies.
Farseer
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Wave Serpent with SL's
10 Guardians with Bright Lance
10 Banshees with Wave Serpent with BL's
3 War Walkers with SL's
5 Dark Reapers
Wraith Knight
Yeah, the Wraith Knight got a huge point bump, but I've seen what the Knights can do in CC, and the WK can replicate that easily. With a Farseer giving him Guide and Fortune, he should be a pretty devastating force still.
Or I could be utterly wrong, and I'll be getting my teeth kicked in all day tomorrow. We'll see.
SL is a pretty bad weapon now - I would avoid it. It was already bad at dealing with units with high saves but now everyones save got +1 because of cover - and everything that uses it wants to move. Replace with star cannons and you will see much better results I think.
The WK - if you give him the suncannon will average a kill on any tank he shoots - will murder any elite infantry unit he shoots - and can still wreck face in CC with his Titan feet. He is Hugely expensive - wont do well against Las Cannon spam - but he will do well against most anything else I think.
Not starcannons. Starcannons are more expensive and have half the shots; good AP, yes, but they're paying a lot of points for fixed 3 damage in an edition where the infantry swarm is coming back in force.
But if you replace all your scatter lasers with Shuriken cannons you'll see improvement against pretty much everything and you'll be spending three fewer points per gun to get there.
(Personally I'm feeling quite good about my decision to magnetize the guns on my jetbikes.)
Thats a good point about the jetbikes and cost of the SC - however star cannons are also great at killing infantry too. The -3 ap strips away cover and a 5+ save entirely. It will average more damage vs anything compared to a SC except things out in the open with a 5+ save or less. That's not even the weapons job - it's ment for heavy infantry and light vehicals and the SC falls flat on it's face there. Not to say the SC is useless - it's assault so its the best option for jetbikes (I didnt even glue mine - they just pop right in). There will be other situations where a SC is a better choice than a SC too - in places like warwalkers though where you are buying a heavy weapons platform - I think you need to put real heavy weapons there and not light infantry killing weapons you can get anywhere else in an eldar list - that's all I'm saying.
Yeah, but the extra 18pts/gun is putting me off recommending just loading everything up with starcannons, and they're still Heavy. When we're talking a tank tank with the option for a CTM who can flit about in best-of-both-worlds mobile-shooty-zone (or Wraithknights who just don't care) that's one thing, but War Walkers and Vypers who can't and aren't really tough enough to be trying to kit out all the way, or Wrathlords that really want to be advancing, or Guardians who are sacrificing huge amounts of shuriken-catapult fire by trying to sit back and not shoot, are another.
Of course all this goes out the window if you're playing PL. Starcannons for everyone there.
Yeah thats the biggest let down for me on serpents. vecotored engines is an awesome upgrade and it is only useful with a full SC loadout. End result is a tank that doesn't do a lot of damage that is hard to kill. It's not the eldar way.
The Wave Serpent hull is big enough so that even if the opponent gets into melee combat vs your wave serpent, it can keep all enemy models farther than 3" away from objectives.
The wave serpent is tough enough to sustain though fire while camping on those objectives
The wave serpent is also fast enough to rush for last minute line-breaker victory points.
Playing the objective and winning is the eldar way.
Hi. Trying to find how overpriced (or not?) are Striking Scorpions, I did some maths for the Ynnari thread:
I run some numbers of Striking Scorpions and a directly comparable unit, Tyranid Raveners.
Against a toughness 3, 5+ save in cover 6 Raveners (138 points) do 7,7 wounds on average.
Against the same unit a 5 SS unit (Exarch with Biting blade 107 points, with Chainsabres 111 points) do 7,71/8,25 wounds on average (pistols+mandiblasters+CC).
Not bad at all for a significantly cheaper unit! I know that may be an ideal scenario, but maybe it informs about the kind of target SS should pick.
To add some value to the half-assed maths, I also run the average resilience against 10 Marines rapid-firing bolters (130 points, approximately comparable).
SS (out of cover) would suffer 3 casualties, and probably pass their morale test (or suffer another casualty tops).
Raveners would suffer around 4.4 wounds (a full dead Ravener plus a wounded one), and would have a 1/3 chance of losing at least 1 more model due to morale.
I looks like Raveners clearly win at resilience, but that was to be expected at least by the 31/27 difference in points.
You could say: hey Daniel, why would I spend around 110 points for killing a GEQ squad in cover when I could do it with shooting? I guess a backfield, entrenched squad could be a problem to target .
Let's see how a 3 man Dark reaper squad with Tempest launcher (115 points) would do. To cut some slack for the underdog, let's assume the target is out of sight and only the Tempest launcher can fire. An average of 2.59 wounds. A Shadow Weaver would perform worse.
My point? SS are overpriced, but they are comparable to similar units, and have a role to play in which they are moderately efficient.
First impressions are very good. Wraithguard w/ D Scythes are amazing with the amount of times they get to shoot, and the Wraithbone fists aren't too bad in combat either vs the right opponent.
Wraithlords also excellent, good amount of shooting and sword is good versus the right opponent.
Will be definitely be taking a Wraith core for my army with some mobility added on. Wave Serpents ? Jet bikes ?
After shelving my Iyanden in 7th, it felt very good to get them back on the table
.
Has anybody gotten the eldar forgeworld Index? If so could you comment on pricecost and units?
I have the space marine one and some things are game breaking with the amount of shots and damage they do, but since from what we know most eldar things are low rate of fire, I'm actually worries.
So I played that list today. I feel it went very well. Some notes.
I played against IG allied with Blood Angels. Knights. Tau.
Eldar are just fast. They will be across the table in your face on turn 2 at the latest.
They die fast. I got tabled by the Knights (which has happened 3 for 3 games I've played against them), and the Tau (that was my own fault, huge tactical mistep turn 1).
Scatter Lasers are still the go to heavy weapon of choice, IMO. Weight of numbers will get the job done, for the price you're paying.
Wraithknight, expensive yes, but still very effective, when complimented by things like Farseers. Today he put 2 Knights down before he went down. In game 1 he took out a ton of IG, and didn't get a scratch in return. I feel he's pointed out to where he should be now. It just sucks that Knights are cheaper, so it seems like they are over priced. Only time he didn't perform was when I moved him in turn one, and gave the Tau player an opening to drop 9 crisis suits right behind him, and gunned him down.
Our army is not an "auto-win" anymore, but from what I saw today, we're still a powerful foe to face, if we keep our head on straight.
Scatter laser is worse than the shuriken cannon now. The extra shot is mitigated by the -1 to hit when moving, and even then the numbers are pretty similar with the extra ap on 6s balancing out the one less shot. When you factor in doom as well the rending of the shuriken cannon makes them decent at doing some damage to vehicles as well, as most wounds are almost guaranteed to beat armour.
And that's before even factoring in the fact that cannons allow you to advance and shoot at full effect.
djones520 wrote: So I played that list today. I feel it went very well. Some notes.
I played against IG allied with Blood Angels. Knights. Tau.
Eldar are just fast. They will be across the table in your face on turn 2 at the latest.
They die fast. I got tabled by the Knights (which has happened 3 for 3 games I've played against them), and the Tau (that was my own fault, huge tactical mistep turn 1).
Scatter Lasers are still the go to heavy weapon of choice, IMO. Weight of numbers will get the job done, for the price you're paying.
Wraithknight, expensive yes, but still very effective, when complimented by things like Farseers. Today he put 2 Knights down before he went down. In game 1 he took out a ton of IG, and didn't get a scratch in return. I feel he's pointed out to where he should be now. It just sucks that Knights are cheaper, so it seems like they are over priced. Only time he didn't perform was when I moved him in turn one, and gave the Tau player an opening to drop 9 crisis suits right behind him, and gunned him down.
Our army is not an "auto-win" anymore, but from what I saw today, we're still a powerful foe to face, if we keep our head on straight.
I'm intrigued that Scatter Lasers worked out so well for you on Wave Serpents. I was under the impression Twin Shuriken Cannons would be superior due to being able to fire after advancing at -1 or moving with no penalty. You're only losing two shots at 12" of range, which given the Wave Serpent's mobility and extra cannon isn't much.
What exactly is difficult about dealing with Knights now? do the standard Eldar counters (Bright Lances, suicide Fire Dragon squads) not work well now?
Knights are hard to put down. 24 wounds, with that 5+ invuln. The guy in my group runs all 4 with Battle Cannons. 2d6 shots that does d3 damage. 4 units to deploy, he almost always goes first (I siezed on him today, and that's why I managed to put 2 knights down, first time I dropped 1). He tables all three opponents he played today, and I gave him the hardest fight.
They are incredibly survivable, and they put out massive fire power, and will get the alpha strike. It's a tough combo. I'm expecting him to go 6 for 6 at ATC this year.
Even with crystal targeting matrix for the scatter laser, shuriken cannon is still better when you crunch the numbers. Scatter laser has the advantage against t3 +5 save and that's about it. Against marine equivalent it's pretty similar and then at t7 3+ save shuriken cannon takes the lead.
And that's without the -1 to hit. For guardians, wraithlord, jetbikes etc that can't take the upgrade it is a no brainer.
In fact probably the best place to run scat lasers is where you have done it. Twin linked on serpents. Ctm tax only has to be paid once to advantage the equivalent of 2 scatter lasers, and with the horde force being powerful the extra .5 wounds per shot against t3 5+ save is a welcome boost.
I haven't played any games yet, but will hopefully in a day or two. I'm looking forward to testing out a few things, unfortunately, for now I'll have to be fairly mech, but I want to try footdar for this edition.
What are people running HQ wise at 2k? I'm looking at 2 detachments,a brigade and a spearhead, for 4CP, but that means 3 hq is required, as I said, no games yet, but I'm theory crafting a bit.
At first I thought the Autarch looked pretty weak, but he does let everyone (at first I thought only aspect warriors) re-roll 1's to hit. I'm thinking of putting him near some guardian blobs, (and aggressively going for objectives) thinking the more dice I roll, the more his buff is useful. Might hover some war walkers kitted with Shuriken cannons, or star cannons with them too. However I'll also run Warp Spiders too, which could outflank with some war walkers or vypers, keep the Autarch in the middle and again, thats a lot of re-rolls.
I'd like to combine this with a Farseer, for Doom of coarse, 24" range is decent, and with our speed, we should be also to, as we always have, put down the biggest toughest unit on the board each turn. Farseers seem like a good safe choice, nothing has really changed. They are kinda tougher, provided you can keep a meatsheild around.
Then I'm thinking of running a Avatar, just as a deterrent, he seems pretty good in combat, and should be able to finish off units, or take on other big scary things. His re-roll charge thing seems pretty useless and 250pts is a lot for a counter assault unit. Anyone else plan on running him?
Overall, I'd say it too early to see, everyone is still trying to figure out themselves and everyother army. We look soild, but not OP like we were before, hopefully we aren't forced to go mech. Losing MSM is a huge loss though, thats what I feel will be the hardest change to take on, we are no longer safe from return fire. Add in the easy Alpha strike and high fire power of everything, and we could die really fast.
I'll write more later, as i digest the book and rules.
Wyldcarde wrote: Even with crystal targeting matrix for the scatter laser, shuriken cannon is still better when you crunch the numbers. Scatter laser has the advantage against t3 +5 save and that's about it. Against marine equivalent it's pretty similar and then at t7 3+ save shuriken cannon takes the lead.
And that's without the -1 to hit. For guardians, wraithlord, jetbikes etc that can't take the upgrade it is a no brainer.
In fact probably the best place to run scat lasers is where you have done it. Twin linked on serpents. Ctm tax only has to be paid once to advantage the equivalent of 2 scatter lasers, and with the horde force being powerful the extra .5 wounds per shot against t3 5+ save is a welcome boost.
Good point about the Twin Scatter Lasers on a Wave Serpent. 16 inches of movement base is already very fast by vehicle standards, and if you swap Vectored Engines for Crystal Targeting Matrix while keeping the underslung cannon and Spirit Stones a Wave Serpent with Twin Scatter Lasers is only 1 point more than with the default turret.
Does anybody have ideas about what the best loadouts for War Walkers are? They still have battle focus, but their base movement is now 10 inches. 96 points gets you the old standby loadout of Scatter Laser+Bright Lance, but does anybody have other ideas as to what would be effective with them?
Ok, keeping with my "Striking Scorpions are awesome!" monologue
Assuming I was dead-set on fielding 10 of them, what do you think would be better: 2 units of 5 or one unit of 10? I will field Karandras, for the record.
3 for 3 at this point using lots of flyers, Guardians in Serpents, and the Yncarne and a Farseer. So far the Yncarne hasn't done a whole lot but the rest of the list is clearly very strong.
Game against Space Marines with some primaris, some bikers, some centurions, a predator, and a flyer:
My flyers blew up his centurions and attack bikes turn 1, bringing in the Yncarne in the middle of the rest of his army, while Serpents and Guardians killed a bunch of primaris and some scouts. The Serpents charged a few things to lock them down. Opponent conceded.
Game against Tyranids with 2 flyrants, Exocrine, Toxivore, Trygon Prime, Mawloc, a big shooty termagant horde, and a big genestealers unit with the Broodlord:
I played this very poorly but for this game my three flyers were all Hemlocks and they were great. They started blowing up his backline turn 1. He deep struck the Trygon and the Mawloc and I didn't have the firepower available to do something about them, though my Guardians did wipe the termagants, so they were able to charge and do bad things to a Serpent and a Guardian squad, and would continue to kill Guardians and damage Serpents in CC for a few turns. The flyrants killed a Hemlock, but this summoned the Yncarne who pasted one of the flyrants and almost killed the other before going down (I could and should have teleported him away when I wiped out a gaunt squad elsewhere). Guardians and Serpents shredded the genestealers. I was set to table him pretty quickly after this but he got a great roll and blew up a second Hemlock. We were very close on VPs when I tabled him in turn 6.
Game against Guard with 3 Russes, 2 bane wolves, 2 taurox primes with autocannons, and 80 Stormtroopers:
Hemlocks and Serpents were able to wipe out 2 Russes on turn 1. He misplayed and dropped about 50 Stormtroopers all around the Serpents, which are normally very durable and also immune to overcharged plasma damage, and while he brought two of them down to ~5 wounds he didn't kill one. Guardians popped out and along with the Serpents killed about half of the Stormtroopers, with the Serpents ready to charge and lock down a bunch of stuff. Opponent conceded.
So the Tyranid game was easily the hardest fight. Hemlock damage output goes way down when Smite can be denied, and Serpents start dying pretty quickly to d6 damage melee attacks. I could have played this a lot better, though -- the priority needed to be on making sure that nothing could kill the Hemlocks so that I can use them as long as possible for cleaning up all the monsters. The Yncarne needed to be better-protected too.
I also was paying too much attention to objectives in the Tyranid game -- this is why the Hemlocks didn't turn around to help deal with the Mawloc and Trygon -- when really I should have just been ignoring them and trying to table my opponent.
Assuming I was dead-set on fielding 10 of them, what do you think would be better: 2 units of 5 or one unit of 10? I will field Karandras, for the record.
2 by 5 means 1 more unit to deply, thus lower chances to get first turn. But it also doubles charge chance, gives extra wound from exarch, extra special weapon and extra Starburst grenade. I think it really comes down to the way you're rolling - trying to grab first turn or getting more soulbursts (if you're ynnari).
I also was paying too much attention to objectives in the Tyranid game -- this is why the Hemlocks didn't turn around to help deal with the Mawloc and Trygon -- when really I should have just been ignoring them and trying to table my opponent.
Did 3 large flyer bases help to screw up nyd's deploy and movement?
With all the melee, drop and horde armies popping up I was thinking Air Wing might be best supplement for eldar now, since our planes are pretty good.
Did 3 large flyer bases help to screw up nyd's deploy and movement?
With all the melee, drop and horde armies popping up I was thinking Air Wing might be best supplement for eldar now, since our planes are pretty good.
The flyers would have kept me safe from a turn 1 deep strike if he'd seized, but I pretty much had to leave a flank open after my first turn if I wanted to move up the board at all. The Mawloc gets to appear within like 1" of stuff anyway and the Trygon was bringing a bunch of shooty termagants in behind me to attack a Serpent. If I'd been running Crimson Hunters they would have been more useful for blocking deep strikers, but the Hemlocks have to play aggressively. Later, though, the Hemlocks were great for blocking movement and charge routes for his genestealers and Broodlord.
I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast
The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.
Farseer
Avatar
Warlock
3 x blobs of 13 guards with Aeldari Missile Launcher platforms
3 x Wave serpents with TL Aeldari Missile Launcher, Targeting Crystal, and Shuriken Cannon
5 x Dark Reapers
Wraithknight with a sword(IG had an IK so this was a planned duel)
Was playing agains Astra Militarum with lots of bodies on the floor.
The warlock kept throwing Conceal while my blob walked across the table. The Reapers were behind camping an objective.
I was very happy with the Aeldari Missile launchers as they did a ton of damage. Also, with command points you can try to avert getting a 1 on one die when seeing how many shots you get out of the missile launcher.
The -1 AP on the missile launcher is what gives the launcher some punch and I think it should not be underestimated. It meant that a lot of cover disappeared for the IG guys.
-1 to hit is going to be the gak in this edition. Also played a Venom spam list yesterday, and it is a huge change to force your opponents to get a higher roll. Stuff just survives and survives.
The Guardians deleted units when they got into range and weathered a surprising amount of shots from IG. The WK became a distraction carnifex and died at the end of Turn 2 after it had eaten the firing of 1500 points worth of IG every turn and then killed a huge blob of conscripts that were screening the IG army.
Was disappointed with the Dark Reapers as my rolls were gak and they really didn't get their points back. The gun is crazy expensive, and is super hard to get your points back on horde armies. Against MEQ They are going to rule though.
The MVP was the warlock with Conceal and the avatar giving fearless. The Farseer was less impressive, but did give me Doom that made a difference in few places.
The heavy workers were the Wave Serpents that resisted a ton of firing and really didn't start to go down until the IK started taking them seriously. That is something I could have done better as I should have used the missile launcher range and just deployed better or made a smarter initial first turn move with them.
I think it is going to be better to kill a few models in every unit and force a morale test instead of focus firing a single squad down. One game of Craftworld vs. IG I focused fire and it hurt. When I started spreading fire when I could I could perhaps force a leadership test here and there that maybe netted me an extra body gone from the opponent.
reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.
Wyldcarde wrote: reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.
There are ways to protect them though. If you run them with the TL, then you can keep them out of sight and still fire, you can keep a warlock nearby with conceal, you can put them in a Serpent to protect them from deep strikers and alpha strikes (you can fit 4 min squads of Reapers in 1 Serpent). If you want to protect them form deep strikers then position your units to create a big no-zone for them around the Reapers. And if you are worried about heavy weapons, then bring other stuff they might want to target with those weapons. Like the serpent, or our flyers, or wraith units, or the avatar, etc.
To protext against deep strikes it's good to remember that no one can deep strike within 9 inches of an enemy unit. This means that if you have the bodies you can easily create a deep strike protection bubble just be spacing out your models properly.
Wyldcarde wrote: reapers are a funny unit as they seem obviously good offensively but with the changes to ap and cover they just die fast. At least in old editions their 3+ armour stuck around against small arms fire and they could have a 5+ cover save or better if it didn't. Now any form of heavy infantry weapon will melt them in a salvo. I guess range is their friend but with fliers going to be a lot more prevelant and deep striking being a lot more accurate and consistent I don't see them getting too many chances to shoot. Which is a shame because hitting on 3s all the time with heavy weapons is really good.
Large units in wave serpents will be scary but expensive.
You can't protect everything for the whole game. Your guys will die.
stupid question, probably already asked and answered, but does the Aeldari keyword allow you to make an army using units from any of the Eldar lists? I know the Ynnari can basically do that anyway, but since you can run any Imperial units together, can you do the same with the pointy ears?
so had my first game with mixed guard, marines and elder forces.
Marines took a beating but they still were around.
The BaneBlade and the Imperial Bastion were TOUGH....but in turn 3 we took 19 wounds off of the SuperHeavy. We quit after that but we almost had it.
Marine Dreads are quality.
Not overly impressed with Jump Pack Marines. We got lucky with deep strike + charging ....very lucky and still did not get invested points back.
The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.
The Wraith lord took a lot but I'm not impressed and will not field one again.
The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.
WraithCannons RULE. Absolutely demolished a leman russ in 1 round even with bad rolls, and from then on they absorbed the brunt of the enemies fire!!!! Will always take them.
1 storm guardian with fusion gun finished a scout sentinel. Not bad...so Fire Dragons and Storms' with fusion may have some use.
The Dark Reapers were my only answer to the Vindicare. They were one of the best units. CrackShot is junk though.
Banshees....got shot to death in 1 round after the enemy fell back.
Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.
It's interesting you mentioned SM dreads as a standout but wraithlords falling flat. Why the big difference considering similar stats and roles? How did you gear your lord?
The Marine player had 2 dreads and it took 2 turns to kill one with a several tanks + HWS.
The Lord was an old model so 1 bright lance + cats x2
It got hit by 2 basilisks and stuff. Even with Fortune it was dead after 1 full turn. But it did take a lot of stuff to kill it. and It was out of LOS for most of the stuff that hit it.
The Marine player could have used his techmarine to heal the dread too. I'm not sure if the Eldar has anything that could do that. Plus the degrading stats would have hurt, but it was dead prior to having to go thru that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I should start using terms like Rounds and Turns as they apply to 8th edition now
The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.
The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.
Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.
I'll be interested in seeing how the Avatar does in future games, thinking of running one.
What did ya have on the warwalkers and what did ya target? I'm thinking of running a few.
Sucks about the Scorps, i can't say i'm surprised, you fought out of cover I presume? They might eb decentign when fighting against units in cover. What did ya have in the Exarch?
I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast
The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.
Are you playing as Ynnari? Or CWE? Also what do you do with the farseer? Is it in a serpent? Or just deployed on foot?
First impressions are very good. Wraithguard w/ D Scythes are amazing with the amount of times they get to shoot, and the Wraithbone fists aren't too bad in combat either vs the right opponent.
Wraithlords also excellent, good amount of shooting and sword is good versus the right opponent.
Will be definitely be taking a Wraith core for my army with some mobility added on. Wave Serpents ? Jet bikes ?
After shelving my Iyanden in 7th, it felt very good to get them back on the table
.
At five hundred points I only got blades and one lord with guardians and a seer.
They were very underwhelming against necrons and Nids.
I have been impressed with guardians so far. Especially when backed by farseers and warlocks. And the hemlock is a beast
The current iteration is basically:
Yncarne
Farseer
4x 10-man Guardians in Shuriken Cannon Serpents
3x Hemlocks
and a minimum Razorwing Flocks unit that I'm playing around with for objectives, deep strike denial, and summoning the Yncarne. It didn't actually do much in the game against Guard but if he'd rolled better I would have brought in the Yncarne and smashed a couple more of his tanks on my turn 2.
Are you playing as Ynnari? Or CWE? Also what do you do with the farseer? Is it in a serpent? Or just deployed on foot?
Yeah, Ynnari. The Farseer starts in a Serpent and usually gets out on turn 1, advances forward, and ends in the middle of a bunch of Serpents where she can Doom and maybe Smite something. Her main job is to Doom good targets for shuriken weaponry.
_Valten_ wrote: Also interested in Wraithblades; specifically whether the extra expense for the axes is worth it over the swords?
I think the axes are almost never worth it except maybe if you just really need to pack as much power as possible into a single Serpent. Yeah, they get a 4++, but at the same time they get 50% more expensive. They become a fantastic target for assault cannons and other weapons with decent strength and a little AP. The axes aren't even clearly better than the swords in CC per model (obviously they're better against T6 and T7 when you charge, but there are a lot of situations where they don't pay off nearly as well) and, again, you're paying 50% more for them. For the price of 2 axes you can get 3 swords.
I played a couple games as eldar over the weekend and would like to share my experience. First, Doom is probably our most important spell. It makes up for the fact that a lot of our weapons have low strength, like howling banshees, starcannons, and suriken cannons (especially helpful for the suriken cannons). I found that dooming a target and focus firing it until it died was super effective. I even managed to permanently kill Celestine. That said, my farseer was the core of my army and MVP for both games. I don't know how I would've won if I ever lost my farseer. In one instance, my opponent threw ahriman close to my farseer to kill her with psychic powers and shooting, but between her invuln, the ghost helm, and the runes of the farseer, she denied a couple powers and survived unscathed. I then sent in the wave serpents to kill him with mortal wounds from the serpent shields.
The Viper did ok. I took 2 suriken cannons. It wasn't a huge enough target for my opponent to prioritize, so it went largely ignored. Between fly and the high movement, it was never worth attacking (for my opponents). The movement helped grab objectives and avoid things that wanted to get into melee.
I was disappointed with the wraithlord. With only 3 attacks and diminishing stats, he never made his points back. His ranged weapons were probably better taken on another wave serpent or viper. That said, he did hit a helbrute with bright lances and finished it off in melee before dying, so I guess he made most of his points back. Speaking of wave serpents, those things are amazing. They're pretty tanky and can dish out a good amount of damage. I popped my serpent shields on all my wave serpents to kill Characters to great effect.
Finally, I like guardians more than Dire Avenger, which sucks because I like the avengers models more. I threw guardians at my opponents as a screening unit that needed to be dealt with because they can dish out a lot of hurt with doom support. When they died, I counter attacked/ Soul bursted with whatever was next to them.
I think the axes are almost never worth it except maybe if you just really need to pack as much power as possible into a single Serpent. Yeah, they get a 4++, but at the same time they get 50% more expensive. They become a fantastic target for assault cannons and other weapons with decent strength and a little AP. The axes aren't even clearly better than the swords in CC per model (obviously they're better against T6 and T7 when you charge, but there are a lot of situations where they don't pay off nearly as well) and, again, you're paying 50% more for them. For the price of 2 axes you can get 3 swords.
So do you think it's worth having wraithblades at all? Or would you put the points into wraithguard with cannons and trust the toughness and save will see them through?
Requizen wrote: Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?
I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:
Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.
Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.
Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).
Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.
Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.
Requizen wrote: Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?
I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:
Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.
Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.
Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).
Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.
Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.
Elite1: Wraithblades w/twin swords
Wave serpent with triple shuricannons, spirit stones, vectored engines, star engines
Elite2: Wraithguard w/ D-scythes
Elite3: Wraithguard w/ wraithcannons
Elite4: Harlequin Solitaire
Heavy1: Wraithlord with Starcannon, Ghost glaive
Heavy2: Wraithlord with 2x flamers, Shuricannon, Ghost glaive
Flyer1: Hemlock Wraithfighter
Lord of War: Wraithknight with glaive/shield, 2x starcannons.
2000 points, on the nose.
The solitaire is in there because 1) the points fit, and 2) I'm limited by the Vanguard structure. Splitting it into a vanguard & spearhead will have to wait until I have something to swap for the wraithknight.
Elite1: Wraithblades w/twin swords
Wave serpent with triple shuricannons, spirit stones, vectored engines, star engines
Elite2: Wraithguard w/ D-scythes
Elite3: Wraithguard w/ wraithcannons
Elite4: Harlequin Solitaire
Heavy1: Wraithlord with Starcannon, Ghost glaive
Heavy2: Wraithlord with 2x flamers, Shuricannon, Ghost glaive
Flyer1: Hemlock Wraithfighter
Lord of War: Wraithknight with glaive/shield, 2x starcannons.
2000 points, on the nose.
The solitaire is in there because 1) the points fit, and 2) I'm limited by the Vanguard structure. Splitting it into a vanguard & spearhead will have to wait until I have something to swap for the wraithknight.
Wow, that's super low model count. What do you plan to do against armies with strong shooting, like Guard lines or Knights?
Requizen wrote: Wow, that's super low model count. What do you plan to do against armies with strong shooting, like Guard lines or Knights?
Very true... but the last time around (back in 5th) I was mostly a Deathwing player, so small armies are well within my comfort zone.
Terrain will be a huge factor, for sure. LOS-blocking terrain is pretty crucial in this edition, from what I've seen so far.
As far as anti-shooting, the Hemlock should be able to pounce on enemy rearguard units (an alternate list would be to ditch the solitaire and one of the lords in favor of a second Hemlock). The 2d3 auto-hit heavy d-scythes hitting pretty much anywhere on the table will draw fire, if nothing else.
Beyond that, the list is made to have very little that you can afford to ignore. The hope is that my opponent will have to make some tough choices as to where to focus fire. The serpent unit, lords, knight, and solitaire can all punch a pretty reliable hole in something, and then spread quickly if left unchecked. The fact that it's MUCH easier to get to the enemy in 8th edition really helps out.
None of which is to say that it'd be an easy matchup. I haven't faced a horde or true gunline army yet, but I expect them to be a real challenge. Other elite armies, though? Spirit host seem to eat 'em just fine.
The Eldar:
The Avatar waded thru everything but, They just ignored it as it never killed enough to be a threat or pay its points back.
The WarWalkers were quality. Not game moving, but solid.
The Wave Serpent was a real tough cookie and still going....I will field 3 or 4 of them in the future.
Will Not field Striking Scorpions....They could not take down 1 squad of guardsmen 1v1. Missed the charge...overwatch etc...not good rolls and were made mince.
I'll be interested in seeing how the Avatar does in future games, thinking of running one.
What did ya have on the warwalkers and what did ya target? I'm thinking of running a few.
Sucks about the Scorps, i can't say i'm surprised, you fought out of cover I presume? They might eb decentign when fighting against units in cover. What did ya have in the Exarch?
Thanks for the report mate.
War walkers were split up? Was told that is how they work now. One was a decoy, but was never targeted...The StarCannon took 3 wounds off the baneblade.
The 2nd did one wound to the Imperial Bastion after 2 rounds but on round 3 did 11 to the baneblade with brightlance and EML.
The 3rd one could not hurt the Imperial Bastion, and managed to put 1 wound on a scout walker with a brightlance and took an Evesor assassin down to 2 wounds on turn 3 with the starcannon.
Yes the scorpions started in cover and attacked the squad in cover. There was a primaris psyker and Platoon Commander and the Missile launcher 10 man unit. Got hit with Overwatch and failed the charge. Cover helped but 5 + exarch with biting blade is too small. next turn lost a couple more. and then the rest on overwatch and psychic. The exarch made it in and killed one I think...they fell back and smite finished him off...With no Deny the Witch rolls near the 'infiltrate' they were easy pickens. Psykers may not be tough but some armies have lots of cheap ones to fill up with. (warlocks and primaris for example)
The Wailing Doom was nasty on shooting (3 wounds to a predator), (3 wounds to a Russ and then just waded thru 4 guardsmen every time in combat).
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Requizen wrote: Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).
I actually was thinking this if I had to face a Tyranid Army. The Wraithlords would be very usefull to just wade in for hth
Insane cost of 77 + 50 for only 4 wounds. Str 10 d6 -4 is awesome but for 127 points.....no way.
UNLESS you can screen them someway. They can move 6 " and fire 24"=30" total on a 4+. They have Battle Focus but that don't really work with their guns.
If there was a way to move a tank in front after they shot to block LOS.
So the Ynarri could pull that off I think with an extra Move?
DarknessEternal wrote: You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.
The Eldar tax from 3rd-6th edition has returned.
Sounds like someone is spoiled by the (overpowered) 7th Ed. Codex.
There was most certainly no eldar tax in the 6th Ed. Codex, and I dare even say the 4th Ed. Codex was fine for it's time.
As for 3d...well at least we had Starcannons.
Yes the scorpions started in cover and attacked the squad in cover. There was a primaris psyker and Platoon Commander and the Missile launcher 10 man unit. Got hit with Overwatch and failed the charge. Cover helped but 5 + exarch with biting blade is too small. next turn lost a couple more. and then the rest on overwatch and psychic. The exarch made it in and killed one I think...they fell back and smite finished him off...With no Deny the Witch rolls near the 'infiltrate' they were easy pickens. Psykers may not be tough but some armies have lots of cheap ones to fill up with. (warlocks and primaris for example)
I think you had a clear case of bad luck there. I wouldn't dismiss SS just based on that experience alone.
Requizen wrote: Reece from FLG was raving about Wraith construct armies, going for the old Iyanden style. What do you guys think about that?
I've been building a spirithost list myself, and I'm really impressed with the results. Here are my takeaways:
Wraithguard are useful in both varieties. While hosing people down with D-scythes is immensely satisfying (getting 15 autohits on a Hive Tyrant was sweeeeeeet), the regular wraithcannon is fantastic for vehicles and high-wound monsters.
Wraithblades with twin swords are stupidly effective. I was running a squad of 5 with the spiritseer in the serpent, and they'd just erase whatever I threw them at. 20 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's (with Enhance), rerolling 1's (from the SS) at strength 6 with a -2 AP is essentially a sharknado. I wouldn't even consider using the axe/shield version.
Wraithlords are worth giving a sword, period. I'm actually considering a spearhead's worth of lords with just the sword upgrade (113 pts is a steal).
Wave serpents are feckin' awesome, obviously. If you're running a pure spirit host, you're somewhat at the mercy of odd points values. For instance, for a 1000 point battle, I ended up with 46 points left and nothing to spend it on... so I threw spirit stones, vectored engines and star engines on my triple-shuricannon serpent. +2d6 on the advance, -1 to be hit after advancing, and ignoring wounds on a 6+? After the normal Wave Serpent damage reduction? Hoo-boy.
Now, normally I wouldn't consider dumping 173 points on a transport... but, again, running a pure spirit host means you're having to "tetris" together a number of relatively high-cost units without a lot of low-point stuff to fill in the gaps.
Doing the maths, on average 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes are much better than 5 Wraithblades with Swords.
On average, with D-Scythe
vs T4 3+ = 8.3 wounds (with overwatch doubles to 16 wounds)
vs T7 3+ = 6.6 wounds (with overwatch doubles to 13 wounds)
On average, with swords and on the charge
vs T4 3+ = 6 wounds
vs T7 3+ = 3 wounds
In protracted assaults, the D-Scythe guard are better again, able to fall back and flame?/scythe? their opponents (+overwatch if charged again). Their fists aren't too bad at punching either at S5 AP-1 D1d3
Hilariously, the D-Scythes are are at least on par with Wraithcannons and if not better if they get charged and can overwatch
On average with the Wraithcannon
vs T4 3+ = 2.7 wounds (with each wound doing 3.5 damage for a grand total of 9.7 wounds)
vs T7 3+ = 2.2 wounds (with each wound doing 3.5 damage for a grand total of 7.7 wounds)
TheNewBlood wrote: Any consensus as to the effectiveness of Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees? What is the best warhead for the Exarch in both cases?
Been looking to incorporate more deployment shenanigans in my Eldar, and Melee deterrence is going to be really important in 8th.
Pretty sure basic mathhammer says;
For Scorps
Biting Blade > Chain Sabres > Scorp Claw
Banshees
Executioner > Mirror Swords
That said, I'm curious if there are any recommended loadouts for foot Autarchs in 8th ed, specifically since the Path of Command aura seems really strong especially with Guardians right now. I feel it would probably just be a simple Dual Avenger Catapult loadout, but looking for other opinions.
TheNewBlood wrote: Any consensus as to the effectiveness of Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees? What is the best warhead for the Exarch in both cases?
Been looking to incorporate more deployment shenanigans in my Eldar, and Melee deterrence is going to be really important in 8th.
Pretty sure basic mathhammer says;
For Scorps
Biting Blade > Chain Sabres > Scorp Claw
Chain Sabres are significantly better against GEq, even if slightly more expensive. But Biting Blade is better if expecting to fight toughness 4, 2+ wounds models.
Another reason for the Scorpion Claw being worse than the others (a real shame, so iconic) is that the -1 to hit cancels Sustained assault (unless you are targetting enemies in cover, but then the two other weapons would be getting extra attacks on 5+ instead of 6+).
Gibs55 wrote: Has anyone tried using Illic Nightspear?
Maybe I am crazy however the Vindicare Assasin seems much better, given they are basically the exact same points cost?
What am I missing here?
I guess the biggest difference is that the Voidbringer's 2+ to Wound works against anything that's not a Vehicle, while the Exitus rifle's 2+ to Wound only works on Infantry; you'll only wound most Bikers, Cavalary, Beasts and Monsters on a 4+ or 5+ with it. And Illic has perhaps a little better close combat ability due to his powersword, but I guess that's a wash as you want neither character in close combat anway.
So the Vindicare is better at taking out Infantry Characters with an invulnerable save, while Illic has a wider variety of targets, but is blunted by invulnerable saves. Considering this edition comes with its fair share of Characters without invulnerable saves, that's not too bad I suppose.
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Shooting: A unit of 9 gets 36 Shuricat shots! That's almost a 20 man Guardian blobs worth of dakka. Plus 9 S6 AP-4 D2 lance shots. They can shoot both! At different targets! They can do all this after a 16-22" move.
Assault: 19 S6 AP-4 D2 is pretty killy.
Durability: W2 T4 3+ 4++ is decent but they are a little flimsy for the points cost. The 4++ only working vs shooting is ok if you can wreck units on the charge to avoid being hit back.
Where these guys really shine (lol) is with SfD and buffs:
Super hit and run:
With SfD these guys could be hilarious: Move 16" (22 if you don't mind -1 to hit) and land within 7" of their target, unload 36 rending shots and 9 lances, when the unit dies you can do a 22" SfD move back to safety. Alternatively you could assault after shooting (the same target or a different one) and then make your 22" SfD getaway.
You could also use SfD to assault after advancing; advance 22" next to an enemy unit, when the unit dies (possibly to the spears guns) you can charge something else.
Buffs:
Conceal and fortune are very nice for such an expensive unit.
Guide is actually really good because of the amount of shooting they can do, especially if they advance.
Doom makes the 36 shuriken shots totally shred infantry and turns the lances into great anti-tank weapons: average of 21 wounds to T7+ Vehicles! Wow!
Word of the Pheonix from Yvraine could be used to move them twice so 32" then charge.
Enhance and the Autarch buff would be nice but I think the characters will struggle to keep close with the SfD moves happening.
In conclusion: A properly buffed Shining Spear unit can jump into the enemy army, wipe out a couple of units, then disappear without a trace. I think they are really powerful but at the very least they are super cool.
Yep shining spears seem legit this edition.
I can see them having great synergy running with a hemlock. They will benefit from it's conceal and between the two of them should down most targets.
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.
I think this makes Windriders basically useless, but the Spears' 4++ keeps them playable, I think. There are very few multi-damage guns that don't also have pretty good AP, so while they take two wounds from each shot they're still 50% likely to make their save.
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.
Maybe I should just take indestructible units instead? Any unit you can mention can easily be blown off the board in one turn, so pointing that out isn't the most useful contribution. The Spears durability is their biggest weakness (as I mentioned), but it's the ability to SfD move 22" after wiping a unit that makes me think they will be effective. The have the damage output to trigger SfD and the movement stat to make better use of it than most.
On my first pass through the index I thought "43ppm! Forget that!". However, I'm writing a full Aspect Warrior list now (probably a bad idea) and have been considering what these guys can do...
Try and revisit this thought once you've faced something like Exocrines, Sicarans, or anything else with spam guns that do 2 wounds. I suspect you'll change your tune.
Maybe I should just take indestructible units instead? Any unit you can mention can easily be blown off the board in one turn, so pointing that out isn't the most useful contribution. The Spears durability is their biggest weakness (as I mentioned), but it's the ability to SfD move 22" after wiping a unit that makes me think they will be effective. The have the damage output to trigger SfD and the movement stat to make better use of it than most.
No, you can't keep everything alive. I'm not saying that. In fact, I've frequently said that understanding you can't keep everything alive is the key to success.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
So far I've found this to be one of the better iterations on my lists. I've also tried slightly more loaded Serpents with Guardians and some other variants but the above I think will be my list for my first tournament in 8th.
Farseer_V2 wrote: So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
So far I've found this to be one of the better iterations on my lists. I've also tried slightly more loaded Serpents with Guardians and some other variants but the above I think will be my list for my first tournament in 8th.
Why buy the CTM for the serpents if they don't have heavy weapons?
Farseer_V2 wrote: So I've been tinkering with a few different lists and the following has been pretty successful for me over the course of about 8 or 9 games. This is organized using the Vanguard detachment.
What in the world did they do to my vaul's wrath battery? It took a heavy nerf in resilience and shot up in points like mad. For almost 200 points a unit of 3 averages 2 dead MEQ a turn... i don't even want to marhhammer the dcannons as they would get dropped t1 anyways. For 387 points. Only upsode is they can move and therefor get even worse at shooting...
Cpt. Icanus wrote: What in the world did they do to my vaul's wrath battery? It took a heavy nerf in resilience and shot up in points like mad. For almost 200 points a unit of 3 averages 2 dead MEQ a turn... i don't even want to marhhammer the dcannons as they would get dropped t1 anyways. For 387 points. Only upsode is they can move and therefor get even worse at shooting...
IG mortar teams are 27 points for 3 dudes with 3 mortars. (3D6 Shots at 48 inches with no AP and 1 DMG). 27 points. A wyvern is 85 points for 4D6 shots. Shadow weavers are 98 points. How is any of that balanced at all? Every time some one says something to the affect of 8th edition is so balanced or fun I just want to scream at them.
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
390pts. I don't see them getting killed on turn 1 very often unless they are badly deployed. Things that ignore line of sight and do multiple wounds are their biggest problem.
DarknessEternal wrote: You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.
I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.
Most of my army is a similar price or cheaper. Eldar definitely got a lot of unneeded nerfing.
Eldar where always going to be nerfed considering how ridiculous they where in 6th/7th
I'm glad I can take my Eldar off the shelf and have a good game with my opponents now.
Oh i'm good with nerfs to scatbikes, Wraithknights and spiders. But either they have some horrible typos in there or they just killed some units, that really weren't a problem before (i'm personally butthurt by vaul's wrath points costs. Just got a set of 3 and i really liked them for what they were. But for 300 pts?).
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Oh i'm good with nerfs to scatbikes, Wraithknights and spiders. But either they have some horrible typos in there or they just killed some units, that really weren't a problem before (i'm personally butthurt by vaul's wrath points costs. Just got a set of 3 and i really liked them for what they were. But for 300 pts?).
I've played two games against hordes so far - one against 90 boyz and one against 100 conscripts. I won against the 'scripts, lost to the boyz. Ultimately with the list I'm generating 63 shruiken shots a turn which has been doing OK for me. The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Hordes are challenging but it isn't new to me - I've played against tough horde lists before in a variety of formats. I think when you start looking at your tool kit with things like doom, guide, ancestor's grace, word of the phoenix, and SfD you can find those answers. Fortunately our psychic abilities are good and we've got access to some nice tools to make their application more consistent.
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
DarknessEternal wrote: You're missing that almost all Eldar units are 25% more expensive for no reason.
I'm pretty sure every army got 25% more expensive. Some units and models doubled in price at least, like Necron Tomb Blades going from 18ppm to 42ppm.
Most of my army is a similar price or cheaper. Eldar definitely got a lot of unneeded nerfing.
Eldar where always going to be nerfed considering how ridiculous they where in 6th/7th
I'm glad I can take my Eldar off the shelf and have a good game with my opponents now.
I was doing that before. Now I can't.
As well personal issues aside that is a terrible way to run a business.
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
That's the annoying thing with Spears; you really want a full strength squad, but when you're fine tuning a list that 43pts for dropping one becomes very tempting!
How are you finding Wave Serpents? I haven't used any yet but they seem super durable on paper, have they been surviving? I would worry with only three that going second and losing one in the first turn will really cripple your rush.
EDIT: I just noticed something really wierd: The ability to discharge the Serpent shield for mortal wounds doesn't specify when you do it!?!? You could do it in your opponents shooting phase after they've finished shooting at you lol.
I like this list and have been leaning towards similar lists with lots of Wraith units and Serpents. Not very Eldar to have such tough units but oh well. As someone mentioned above hordes could be an issue- I don't think they would necessarily beat you in a fight, (all your units can take a charge then fall back and shoot, the Spears can wreck hordes with doom) but I'm not sure you could kill them fast enough to get to objectives. I would really want Eldrad instead of that farseer, you could drop the CTMs and Star engines but that may not be enough points.
I used a 9 man Spears unit in a game last night and they took out 2 Carnifexes and Old One Eye in one turn. They then got shot by Hive Guard and charged by a Flying Tyrant which hurt a lot, but they killed the Tyrant and tied up the Hive Guard. Really liking these guys.
However, you were talking about taking spending 500 points that will be killed on turn 1. There's a difference.
390pts. I don't see them getting killed on turn 1 very often unless they are badly deployed. Things that ignore line of sight and do multiple wounds are their biggest problem.
Am I missing something? What makes Eldrad so good?
Eldrad isn't like an auto take over a Farseer or anything but he gets to do all 3 powers instead of just two and all the powers are good. Our spells are also quite hard to cast at 7 warp cost and his ability to add 1 to the roll for each successful cast makes a significant difference. You can use the reroll on the first power and the next two will be easier to get off. I feel like I can only bank on a Farseer getting one power off but with Eldrad I'm confident I'll get two.
In that list in particular I would really want Fortune on the bikes and you always want Doom and Guide.
I do like Eldrad - I could get him by dropping CTM (which I need to anyway) and dropping 1 shining spear. I may play test that set up and see how it works out.
That's the annoying thing with Spears; you really want a full strength squad, but when you're fine tuning a list that 43pts for dropping one becomes very tempting!
How are you finding Wave Serpents? I haven't used any yet but they seem super durable on paper, have they been surviving? I would worry with only three that going second and losing one in the first turn will really cripple your rush.
So far Wave Serpents have been really solid for me. I should note we're playing by what we assume will be the ITC ruling and giving the player who finishes deploying first a +1 to the roll to go first rather than it being a fixed value. Also with the strength of the serpent shield you can survive a fair amount of firepower. I tend to deploy them pretty conservatively - given that they have an effective 17" move on turn one you can play to blocking LoS and even possibly getting cover depending on your terrain layout (we play with a lot of the FLG terrain so we have some actual LoS blocking pieces).
And yeah I don't like giving up the Shining Spear but I think testing with Eldrad is worth it and I don't want to give up Vectored Engines - that -1 to hit has been a very worthwhile buy so far.
The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Can I just ask how you're doing 3-4 rounds of shooting per turn? I thought a unit could only soulburst once per turn?
The scythes are also a fair answer, especially with access to Soul Burst in the psychic phase to generate 3 to 4 rounds of shooting from them in one turn.
Can I just ask how you're doing 3-4 rounds of shooting per turn? I thought a unit could only soulburst once per turn?
Sorry - I should clarify. I meant that as a combined total from the 2 units I run. So in theory its 2 from Unit A and 1 from Unit B, possibly 2 from Unit B depending on what all ends up dead.
I think the hardest part about Eldar in 8th is making a low point army(1000 points). At 2000 points you can start to add some real tools, but at 1000 and below you are getting into trouble as our cheapest unit is Storm Guardian, but they will in turn require an expensive Serpent to deliver them.
admironheart wrote: The Marine player had 2 dreads and it took 2 turns to kill one with a several tanks + HWS.
The Lord was an old model so 1 bright lance + cats x2
It got hit by 2 basilisks and stuff. Even with Fortune it was dead after 1 full turn. But it did take a lot of stuff to kill it. and It was out of LOS for most of the stuff that hit it.
The Marine player could have used his techmarine to heal the dread too. I'm not sure if the Eldar has anything that could do that. Plus the degrading stats would have hurt, but it was dead prior to having to go thru that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I should start using terms like Rounds and Turns as they apply to 8th edition now
Hopefully SM/IG combo armies won't be a thing. Nice for fun, but it could really restrict more competitive army building.
I ran
Eldrad
7 warlocks
Warlock with shining spear
10 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance
Night spinner
3 dark reapers with tempest launcher
10 warp spiders dual spinners
Hemlock wraithfighter
My opponent ran
Knight paladin
Knight errant
2 dragoons
2 dunecrawlers
2 skitarii units
Inquisitor
Ended up a draw at turn 7 with eldrad and the night spinner trading fire with the 2 dunecrawlers.
The knights were scary but lack the rate of fire for their points value to really dish out the hurt. Though the extra move of models means they can get up in your face really fast.
I managed to seize initiative which definitely helped.
eldrad was great as usual. He did manage to lose 3 wounds in the first 2 turns to perils of the warp but didn't take another wound the rest of the game. His +1 to rolls on sucessful cast is really big. When you can smite for 5 then fortune and doom on 6s with a reroll he becomes fairly consistent.
The warlock enclave was surprisingly good. I ran them a couple of times at 5 strong and they failed to impress, dying fairly easily and not really doing much beck. I tried them at 7 which was a lot more effective. D6 destructor and the ability to drain and enhance backed up by fortune makes them a rock in combat, especially against big vehicles.
The guardians were solid also. A single warlock being able to conceal all 3 units is handy, tho sustained fire drops them. 10 man squads were generally ignored for better targets allowing them to catapault doomed knights to great effect.
The warp spiders also performed a lot better for me this game. Dropping them in cover makes them hard to shift with their flickerjump. They even were surprisingly resilient in close combat before jumping out to keep up the fire.
The reapers were disappointing. They managed to kill a dragoon but were in turn gunned down pretty fast, despite being in cover. For me they are too expensive and too hard to keep alive unless you can get them behind something to block line of sight.
The hemlock underperformed but they are definitely solid. With conceal up it will be tough to take down and the scythes managed to do some damage to a knight. Unfortunately the dunecrawlers made short work of it but it was still worthwhile to run.
The nightspinner proved hard to take down being able to sit back in cover at max range. Unfortunately it failed to fire with any significant effect, but that was more bad luck then it being a bad choice. That coupled with doom is a dangerous combo but it suffers from the 2d6 variance and didn't end up firing more than 7 shots the whole game.
I am going to try out dropping the reapers and some warlocks for a howling banshee unit. with their -1 to hit and drain they should be surprisingly durable in combat against most enemy and doom can help to mitigate the low strength value.
Numbers for our heavy weapons against a fair few units and vehicles. Also has the Pulse Laser and Prism Cannon.
Green Highlighted ones are best result in each category.
Note that this is assuming 100% accuracy to simplify, which would make make the Shuriken Cannon seem a little worse.
D6 hits or wounds were represented as 3.5.
D3 hits or wounds are represented as 2
It's worth noting the doomweaver on the night spinner as well. It stacks up seriously well in all categories and is statistically better than the prism cannon.
Fast pointy ear wrote: Numbers for our heavy weapons against a fair few units and vehicles. Also has the Pulse Laser and Prism Cannon.
Green Highlighted ones are best result in each category.
Note that this is assuming 100% accuracy to simplify, which would make make the Shuriken Cannon seem a little worse.
D6 hits or wounds were represented as 3.5.
D3 hits or wounds are represented as 2
Is it just me or have you highlighted the wrong things in a few places? The Pulse Laser has higher numbers than the Starcannon against Primaris Marines and is better than the Bright Lance against Dreads and the Land Raider. Unless there is some other factor I'm not seeing.
Is it just me or have you highlighted the wrong things in a few places? The Pulse Laser has higher numbers than the Starcannon against Primaris Marines and is better than the Bright Lance against Dreads and the Land Raider. Unless there is some other factor I'm not seeing.
As Wyldcarde said, its got one for the generic heavies and one for the vehicle specific ones. Probably should have used another colour, my bad.
Aaaaaand I kind of forgot Nightspinners existed. Following the same order, using 2D6 = 7:
which is better than all types of Prism cannon and the Pulse Laser against everything (with the exception of the Land Raider, where it equals the Lance Prism Cannon).
Not bad for the bargain tank!
@Wyldcarde, how have you been finding the Nightspinner?
Statistically it is very good. Unfortunately it is very swingy due to the 2d6 shots. In one game it was decimating everything and in my most recent game it didn't roll more than 7 shots all game. And then couldn't hit anything even with guide.
It is super fast and it's 48 inch range not needing line of sight can make it really tough to kill. And it works really well with doom and other eldar tricks.
For 167 points it is very easy to earn its points back and is a good all round tank which is likely to stick around to grab an objective late.
I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
What do people think is best in a wave serpent: 8 Fire Dragons or 5 Wraith guard with cannons?
Probably in a Serpent rush Ynnari list.
It's durability vs firepower. On their own I'd say the Guard are better all round but in a Ynnari Serpent rush you want maximum damage on turn 2 and the best chance of wiping the target to trigger SfD. I'm torn.
Wayniac wrote: I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
I seem to be posting D-Scythe Wraithguard for every post i make about Eldar, but... D-Scythe Wraithguard.
Their shooting is pretty generalist, don't need too much support, can advance and shoot, and don't care if they get charged as their Overwatch is good.
Wayniac wrote: I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
I seem to be posting D-Scythe Wraithguard for every post i make about Eldar, but... D-Scythe Wraithguard.
Their shooting is pretty generalist, don't need too much support, can advance and shoot, and don't care if they get charged as their Overwatch is good.
Obviously there will be D-Scythes in another Serpent
EDIT: you weren't even replying to me lol. I agree with your advice.
Wayniac wrote: I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
I seem to be posting D-Scythe Wraithguard for every post i make about Eldar, but... D-Scythe Wraithguard.
Their shooting is pretty generalist, don't need too much support, can advance and shoot, and don't care if they get charged as their Overwatch is good.
D-Scythe even without a Wave Serpent transport (for now)? My only concern with that is that they would be super slow.
Wayniac wrote: I'm doing a mixed Ynnari force for casual play and I'm looking at building my first unit of Wraithguard/blades. I don't have a Wave Serpent for them just yet, should I build them with cannons or with D-Scythes? I really do like how the wraithblades look but my current force is lacking in anti-tank (I only have a raider w/Dark Lance and a Fire Prism for anti-tank). Any ideas?
Tough choice. I like to run one squad of each but if you are just running a single squad, I would probably go for Scythes. They are almost as good vs heavy targets and will murder infantry much better, plus autohitting overwatch is fun.
Farseer_V2 wrote: I don't want to give up Vectored Engines - that -1 to hit has been a very worthwhile buy so far.
Yeah, it looks really good for 10 points. Spirit Stones also look good at the same price. A 6+ FNP may not sound great but when you consider the number of wounds the Serpent has, it is likely to kick in a couple of times which equates to 2 extra wounds on average.
That said, I'm curious if there are any recommended loadouts for foot Autarchs in 8th ed, specifically since the Path of Command aura seems really strong especially with Guardians right now. I feel it would probably just be a simple Dual Avenger Catapult loadout, but looking for other opinions.
I am still playing around with ideas. My old Autarch has a Fusion gun, a jump generator and a power sword. That kind of flexibility helped in earlier editions but is a bit pricey now that everyone can split fire. I might keep him to add some punch if I am running Warp Spiders.
Skyrunner will be the business for boosting multiple grav tanks I think.
For a pure infantry Auatarch, I think that a Reaper Launcher would be pretty effective, hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s. Since he cannot be targetted unless he is the nearest model, he can churn out an impressive amount of firepower. Too bad the small print means he cannot take 2. :(
My first thought out 2k list (after my playtest one)
Mind you my models are from 1995-2004.
Plan is to run the Farseer +3 serpents with warlock, dragons,wraiths and guardians up a flank and the autarch, reapers, guardians warwalkers warlock to hold a fireline with the banshees as counter assault unit.
Banshees and Autarch could late game grab objectives with their speed.
Alternately I would like a normal Farseer plus 1 more Warlock instead of the JetBike Seer
Automatically Appended Next Post: As I understand it If I have a Warlock/Farseer inside the WaveSerpents I will not be able to cast any psychic powers right?
So no Fortune and no Conceal :(
That is why the Jetbike seer and maybe a warlockskyrunner would be better????
djones520 wrote: Has anyone thought of spamming warlocks for Smite?
I have been running eldrad, an enclave and a single warlock. I think if you were going to go lots of warlocks you are better suited to run them as a unit. 7 or more ups their destructor to d6 damage but the unit can soak a chunk of damage especially if fortuned and are alright in combat against the right targets.
Alternately I would like a normal Farseer plus 1 more Warlock instead of the JetBike Seer
Automatically Appended Next Post: As I understand it If I have a Warlock/Farseer inside the WaveSerpents I will not be able to cast any psychic powers right?
So no Fortune and no Conceal :(
That is why the Jetbike seer and maybe a warlockskyrunner would be better????
thoughts
My experience so far. I have been unimpressed with reapers as unless you can hide them well they are gunned down turn one with relative ease. They are definitely strong offensively but have a big target on their head because of it. If you are wanting to run them consider upping their unit size consider putting them in one of the serpents maybe? That way they are pretty much guaranteed on getting a turn of shooting and with their always hit on 3s they can move out of the wave serpent and into a good position and still shoot at full effect.
6 banshees isn't enough. Either drop them or go to 10. They are pretty fragile and can easily lose 2 or 3 on the charge to overwatch. Either way I would suggest dropping both units and taking a unit of shining spears instead. They will pretty much fill the role you want from your banshees but better and are more survivable. Can also cruise around with the farseer on jetbike as a decent fortune target.
Here are some of.my thoughts on our shiny fw stuff.
Revenant big points increase only true titan without macro he's really quick but otherwise not really worth a just shy of warhounds level price point. Not part of any craftworld same as the phantom no psychic buffs or rerolls or anything for you without a phantom titan near by.
Phantom our only option for true titan slaying he's big and scary much less than a warlord now on the same level as a reaver even though it's literally a foot taller.... also no longer a craftworld unit can buff other titans.
Vampire Hunter I like its damage ability but seriously fw how is this the only large flier that doesn't get the titanic flyer rules such as reduce range by 12 and no -1 from heavy weapons... also what happened to the missile launchers where did the pulse lasers come from?
Vampire raider largely the same cheaper than the hunter but much less shooty probably not worth it shoots about as well as 2.5 falcons costs more like 3-4.
Shadow spectre these guys actually look like they can do something they are squished than in previous editions but much more killy no stupid add up the weapon shot rules. Now have a flamer equivalent or a solid shot that can roll additional hits.
Irillyth just don't he's awful offers no buffs shoots slightly better than an Exarch ish better ap lower damage. He also debuffs shadow spectre for some dumb reason I can't comprehend unlike every other Phoenix lords which buffs their aspect.
Wasp assault walkers work exactly like 7th get a ++ And deepstike I like them not much else to say here.
Hornets don't actually have pulse lasers anymore instead cam get hornet pulse lasers which are 3 shot star cannons so they aren't bad by any means but not high strength either. Great vs primaris marinss.
Cobra uhm 10" blast =d6 hits all I have to say here wtf. Should only.now be used for shooting land raiders and pray they have no ++.
Scorpion weaker version of the dual pulsar as it has a lower damage of 3 vs a d6 but I guess it's at least consistent not a bad choice.
Lynx now that snap fire us gone it's actually not terrible when flying but has confusing rules for it also has an even weaker version of the pulsar or the sonic lance 3d6 hits is way worse than hellstorm.
Warp hunter took the same nerfs as other distortion weapons but actually looks good still at 12" d6 auto hits of the d6 wound d weapon profile. Still has a nice bombard to doesn't require los and ups to 2d3 vs 10 models.
Wraithseer gives some good buffs to wraith units does not effect the wk. It can only use 1/3 of the powers though so choose wisely.
Skathach Wraithknight costs well over 600 points with weapons inferno are just melta guns now literally just 2d6 at half pick highest probably still beats stock but the d6 shots if you roll okay is good. The flamers look really good but at this point you are closing in at 700 points and break it with shoulder kounts. Jump rule is nice and fun I guess still seems to pricey but at least isn't gutted by loss of D rules.
Phoenix really nice weapon choices both missiles look really good and it has a buffed pulse laser. Now Can take twin bright lances or starcannons at a high cost. Ballistic skill is miserable as everything is heavy and it only has a 3+ at the best of times.
Nightwing interceptor... got fancy wing rules not really sure why to be fully honest. Also has a miserable ballistic skill for it's fancy bright lances I guess the shuricannons are still firing on a 3+. The rules for wings either make you survivable or better at killy honestly better to stay survivable the 5++ And -1 to hit is way better than change facing and add 1 to hit. Good thing fw dropped the interceptor word from it's name because if you are in flying mode you hit other flyers on a 5+ if you drop out of it you can shoot them better but apparently you are an awful dog fighter.
Guess we can talk about corsairs to. Well this blurb is longer than what they got in the book. They have the worst special rules ever role additional dice on moral pick highest as well as lose an extra model. Bikers still have all their guns vibro at least are useable now but this unit is expensive. The infantry options suffer the same fate trash special rules and very expensive fragile platform. DID I MENTION how bad their rules are they are leadership 6 so if your 3 man jetbikes squad loses 1 model you now roll 2d6 pick the highest and add 1 meaning a single casualty can cause your 1.5× cost of guardian jetbikes unit to run off the table on a mediocre roll have fun.
Also all fw eldar pay for felarchs and Exarch unlike codec eldar. Bit disappointed about a few things the already easy choice things such as hornets and wasps are still good. Other stuff really not so much revenant got the collosal nerf bat for it's sins. I personal have a vampire hunter and revenant I'll also likely grab the new flyer bundle but I'm really unsure if they are worth it over the gw flyers seem worse but are cheaper at least.
So I am looking at the ynnari rules regarding strength in death and word of the Phoenix and just looking to clarify a few things.
In word of the Phoenix it stipulates friendly ynnari unit within 18". Looking at army of the reborn any unit part of the army has the ynnari keyword. Does that mean non infantry and non bike units can soulburst through word of the Phoenix as they are a friendly ynnari unit?
Secondly, if you soulburst and decide to cast a psychic power, does this still follow the matched play rule of only one casting of a spell per turn. I don't have the rulebook to check the wording of the matched play psychic rule but am interested on if this has been addressed anywhere yet.
a full battle round is one complete play of both players turn.
I would think that if it does say 1 casting per turn it would apply to yours and your opponents turns separately.
and thanks Selym. I forgot to edit that when I took out the foot Farseer and the extra Warlock to put in the jetbike
Wyldcarde wrote: So I am looking at the ynnari rules regarding strength in death and word of the Phoenix and just looking to clarify a few things.
In word of the Phoenix it stipulates friendly ynnari unit within 18". Looking at army of the reborn any unit part of the army has the ynnari keyword. Does that mean non infantry and non bike units can soulburst through word of the Phoenix as they are a friendly ynnari unit?
Secondly, if you soulburst and decide to cast a psychic power, does this still follow the matched play rule of only one casting of a spell per turn. I don't have the rulebook to check the wording of the matched play psychic rule but am interested on if this has been addressed anywhere yet.
Yeah, Word of the Phoenix can be used on any Ynnari unit, not just those with Strength from Death. Note too that there's no rule against non-infantry/bikes Soulbursting or even having SfD -- the Yncarne has Strength from Death, after all.
There's nothing in the psychic power Soulburst ability that would override the usual restriction. But it would allow you to cast whatever you want on your opponent's turn, if you trigger a Soulburst.
Titanicus wrote: Here are some of.my thoughts on our shiny fw stuff.
I like the Wraithseer- for 37 more points than a Wraithlord with glaive he gains +1A and +2W, a 5++ save and adds a Deny the Witch roll to the army. Also, as an HQ choice, makes taking additional detachments a lot more flexible if you don't need another aura character. The psychic powers aren't very powerful, but are useful enough for me to boost the speed of a nearby Wraithlord or add an additional -1 Ld to enemy units. I'm not sure why he takes such harsh movement penalties as he gets damaged 8"->6"->4" rather than 8"->7"->6" but he'll certainly be seeing play in my Ynnari list.
Corsairs are very fragile, but I still want to consider them as Ynnari. To make the Reavers cheap, you can trade out the lasblaster for a spar-glaive, then they're 11 points per model. If you compare them to Wyches at that points cost, they do seem like a unit that you can take. Similar statline to Wyches, and I really like their brace of pistols, but they desperately belong in an open-topped transport and without that option it's hard to imagine them surviving to get within 8". Still, I run a Ynnari footslogging list and a squad of 5 with flamer comes to only 64 points and that potential 30 shots that wound on 4+ is enticing.
G00fySmiley wrote: do not have my fw index yet for xenos (physical ordered) can the wraithseer cast smite instead of a buff or is it just buffs?
No smite.
well that is a bit disappoint, but thanks! I love the model probably one of my fav kits to date. wraithlords look good this edition though so maybe I can run him with my 4 wraithlords.
Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.
Khaine wrote: Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.
Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?
Khaine wrote: Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.
Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?
I think people are more referring to Titans and Superheavies then small infantry units like Shadow Spectres. They've been pretty bad in all their past rules incarnations so its nice to see them good. The positive comparison with Warp Spiders/other Aspects I think is more reflective of the aspects being very weak this edition rather than the Spectres being overpowered.
So played a few games today with a 1500 ynnari list. Was very impressed.
My list
Eldrad
Yvraine
2x 11 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance
10 warp spiders
6 shining spears
Hemlock
Night spinner
Soulburst backed with psychic is super good. Getting multiple uses out of guide and ancestors grace a turn is really good. And doom with focused fire almost guarantees a dead unit for soulburst. Everything is short range anyway so the soulburst is easy to be within range.
The hemlock was super impressive. With conceal up it is a massive fire sponge plus can run with the spears and spiders to conceal them as well easily.
The shining spears were very impressive as well. They were surprisingly resilient and a great target for ancestors grace for reroll 1s to all attacks. Their short range and rate of fire means they will soulburst more often then not. In one game managed to advance up turn 1 to shoot down a blight drone allowing them to soulburst and charge into a nearby predator, half killing it too.
Khaine wrote: Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.
Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?
Well, Warp Spiders are complete puke, so being better than them isn't unbalanced.
Wyldcarde wrote: So played a few games today with a 1500 ynnari list. Was very impressed.
My list
Eldrad
Yvraine
2x 11 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance
10 warp spiders
6 shining spears
Hemlock
Night spinner
Soulburst backed with psychic is super good. Getting multiple uses out of guide and ancestors grace a turn is really good. And doom with focused fire almost guarantees a dead unit for soulburst. Everything is short range anyway so the soulburst is easy to be within range.
The hemlock was super impressive. With conceal up it is a massive fire sponge plus can run with the spears and spiders to conceal them as well easily.
The shining spears were very impressive as well. They were surprisingly resilient and a great target for ancestors grace for reroll 1s to all attacks. Their short range and rate of fire means they will soulburst more often then not. In one game managed to advance up turn 1 to shoot down a blight drone allowing them to soulburst and charge into a nearby predator, half killing it too.
This is very similar to my 1.5k list, except I run the guardians in Wave Serpents instead of he warp spiders and shining spears.
Eldrad/Yvraine combo is definitely going to be very potent like you said.
Now all I need to do is find a good "counts-as" Yvraine model as I don't like unhelmed minis.
Khaine wrote: Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.
Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?
Well, Warp Spiders are complete puke, so being better than them isn't unbalanced.
How are they puke? Sure they aren't as good as 7th but they needed to be toned down. A squad of 10 has done a chunk of heavy lifting for me. Between a 2+ save in cover and -2 to hit from flickerjump and conceal makes them difficult to kill. And 22 Str 6 shots, albeit at close range, is nasty. Especially when they can soulburst to do it twice or warpjump away 4d6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would strongly suggest at least trying out one if not both of them in the army. They do a ton of heavy lifting in the army and are my first 2 soulburst targets every time. I find my guardians generally get ignored anyway as my opponent is more concerned with the other 3 big threats.
This list is based on 3 concepts..
1) SPEED
With the exception of one guardian squad, all units are highly mobile. I want to dictate the pace and decide the matchups for each game. My plan is to concentrate force on one flank at a time using my superior mobility so that I can always have local superiority. This is especially true against horde armies.
2) MORTAL WOUND SPAM
Having the ability to spam alot of mortal wounds will be important for this list. Three Wave serpent shields, the Farseer casting smite, 8 Swooping hawks (6+ on a fly over), and Lord Baharoth (4+ on up to 3 dice on fly over)...Mortal wounds becomes pretty impressive.
3)HARD HITTING
in addition to speed, The list is hard hitting IMO.
Anti-Armor
3 Twin linked bright lances
5 Laser lances + 1 Star lance
mortal wounds
5 D-scythes
also Doom will help here..
anti-horde
9 Shuriken cannons,
6 twin linked shuricats
30 guardian defenders
8 swooping hawks at 4 shots each
CC The shining spears on the charge can really put a hurt on vehicles or tought infantry
The solitaire is also a beast in combat. I will be using him as a sort of assasin to target buffing characters. He ignores cover and models when moving. bye bye bubble wrap.
Please let me know your thoughts. I feel as thought I have most things covered here... Would have loved to have a 2nd psyker but could not fit another in and have the solitaire as well. Any concerns about the list versus some army builds?
For 145 you get 6 S6 -3 D2 shots with bio degrading profile.
I do think they might be a bit expensive, but have great damage output is guided.
Shadow spectres I think are great, the -1 to hit, the speed and the 2+ in cover are good if you add the S6 shots that with guide can turn out to be like 24 hits
>> What's everyone thinking for wraithlord loadouts? I want to add them and a unit of wraithguard to my mainly harlequin army.
They are pretty slow even with increased move, especially for supporting something like clowns. I think a Spearhead just armed with swords for cheapest points might be interesting though.
>> So what are people thoughts on hornets?
They seem like the only way aside from Night Spinner for Eldar to spam D2. Although idea of fast skimmers acting as plasma turrets sitting back '48 makes me cringe.
melbards wrote: Please let me know your thoughts. I feel as thought I have most things covered here... Would have loved to have a 2nd psyker but could not fit another in and have the solitaire as well. Any concerns about the list versus some army builds?
I would try it out as a ynnari force instead of craftworld. The majority of your units are short ranged so should benefit from soulburst easily for extra activations, which will be worth a lot more than battle focus over the course of the game.
I would find some points to max out the swooping hawks and also find points for a bright lance on the foot slogging unit. That way it can camp rear objectives but still crank out shots against some high priority targets?
I'd consider dropping down One of the wave serpents to just dual cannons?
Shadenuat wrote: >> What's everyone thinking for wraithlord loadouts? I want to add them and a unit of wraithguard to my mainly harlequin army.
They are pretty slow even with increased move, especially for supporting something like clowns. I think a Spearhead just armed with swords for cheapest points might be interesting though.
>> So what are people thoughts on hornets?
They seem like the only way aside from Night Spinner for Eldar to spam D2. Although idea of fast skimmers acting as plasma turrets sitting back '48 makes me cringe.
I don't think Wraithlords are slow. Give them Shuriken Cannons and they can advance and shoot if needed. Average 11.5" move first turn and shoot 24", second turn average 15" range to get into combat (if needed) seems pretty decent to me
I like to keep my Wraithlords cheap and simple- I just finished a game yesterday with Ynnari that was planned to be 1000 points but we changed it to 1500 at the last minute. For 489 points I added a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords with glaives to my list, even got +1 command point for doing so. They were very solid as a second wave after my beasts made it to the enemy lines. The Wraithseer is great, I was casting the ignore wounds on a 6 power on the lord that was likely to get shot and then actually needed the reroll charges power in order to turn a failed charge into a successful one. The lords filled in what the rest of my army couldn't quite do by taking Overwatch fire and assaulting (and smashing) enemy characters. For two straight character kills I waited until one of the attacks made it through an invulnerable save and used a CP to reroll the damage to a high enough number to kill the character.
I didn't think 3 attacks on the charge would be very good but now that you're hitting everything on 3+, including the high WS combat specialist characters that used to require a 5+, it's actually likely that one or two of those attacks get through and with D6 damage you only need one to take out most lesser characters.
I'm now contemplating a Spiritseer to accompany them based on how well they performed. It was difficult to justify using a psychic power on a single model with 3 attacks to help out with hit rolls, but adding an aura for 2 or more units would really make these guys consistently destructive.
If i were an Iyanden player I would feel very excited for the potential of a spirit host army.
So seeing shadow spectres rules I really rate them. Warp spiders with conceal and flickerjump take some killing with -2 to hit and the spectres get that also.
Was think a list with spiders, spectres, swooping hawks, warlock on jetbike, hemlock and eldrad/farseer and yvraine with a 10 man guardian squad bodyguard would be a solid foundation for a list. With spiders and spectres in a hemlocks conceal bubble they are at -2 to hit with swooping hawks handing out an additional -1 to hit. All highly mobile. Guide on one unit of ghosts and ancestors word on the other means you should consistently get 20+ shots a turn from each unit. Soulburst to do it again. Close combat will be the main weakness but at least everything has fly so it won't be locked down. Plus you have 40 shots per hawk squad for the hoards armies. Could be viable.
check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.
Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons
It looks that way, but you can only take one unit in that manner. This does open up some interesting possibilities for units with 'buffs'.
A 9-point Wych provides No Escape.
A 20-point Ranger denies enemy reserves moving within 9" on turn one.
A 17-point Swooping Hawk Exarch adds +1 Ld to other units within 3".
admironheart wrote: check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.
Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons
You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.
admironheart wrote: check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.
Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons
You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.
The rulebook says if you're using points values then you must pay the price of a minimum sized unit. There is an additional rule in the index books when creating an army that, in Matched Play, you may take less than a minimum-sized unit and only pay the points for those models. It can't be abused because you can only do this once per type of unit.
admironheart wrote: check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.
Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons
You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.
The rulebook says if you're using points values then you must pay the price of a minimum sized unit. There is an additional rule in the index books when creating an army that, in Matched Play, you may take less than a minimum-sized unit and only pay the points for those models. It can't be abused because you can only do this once per type of unit.
Define type...
The amount of abuse this sees is entirely dependant on the definition of a unit's type. Infantry/Vehicle? Guardians/Dire Avengers/Wraithguard? Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support? Space Marine/Aeldari/Drukhari/Necron? Ynnari/Ulthwe/Iyanden?
Well no matter how you define it there can't be doubles of whatever it is you're trying to do. I think it's neat, opens up some other options. You can actually run an Avatar and Court of the Young King this way with individual exarchs.
So this is more a Yanari question but I've been playing with the idea of running a group of wraith guard in a Dark elder Raider and shooting from the open top vehicle since it moves faster(parading my D-weapons around the field) while having some dark reapers in Starweavers to rain mobile death on the outskirts.
I have some banshees and harlequin troupes to run interference. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on open top vehicles being used as heavy weapon platforms or is it too risky
That would be hilarious. Might be a little easy to pop though, what with T5, W10 and Sv4+... A couple of lucky AT weapons will cripple it, and Heavy Bolter equivalents are legit threats to it.
Going back the main codex, I am mulling over our melee options. Wraithblades with Swords look like the most effective of the Eldar's melee units. The Axe and Shield Wraithblades are hugely expensive, Banshees and fragile and struggle to wound without Doom, Scorpions are not especially points effective.
However, I think I may be underestimating the value of melee units in Wave Serpents in 8th now that we can charge on the same turn we disembark. The Wave Serpent is incredibly durable, pretty fast and very shooty. Banshees etc can disembark 3", make their normal 8" move and then assault with an extra 3". This gives them an average 21" threat range for the starting point of the Wave Serpent which is not bad at all (26" max).
People tend to make complain that units can just retreat from assault units in transports and while that is true up to a point, it means that they are backing themselves out of Rapid Fire range, giving themselves a -1 to hit on the their heavy weapons, moving off objectives and still not backing away as fast as the Wave Serpent can advance. I am planning to test Banshees in a Serpent as I feel we may be underestimating them. Don't forget we can now add a cheap Warlock with Enhance/Drain to give them a bit of an edge in combat.
The real trick with Banshees is not to assault in the centre of the enemy's lines. You target will disengage and their buddies will shoot you up. Attack on the flanks and either use the Wave Serpent to eat overwatch or charge an adjacent unit to prevent them shooting. Serpents can disengage and shoot without penalty thanks to the FLY keyword.
Karhedron wrote: Banshees etc can disembark 3", make their normal 8" move and then assault with an extra 3". This gives them an average 21" threat range for the starting point of the Wave Serpent which is not bad at all (26" max).
Even though Banshees can charge 15" possibly, they can still only declare a charge against a unit within 12". It may come up frequently enough to worth mentioning.
Oaka wrote: Well no matter how you define it there can't be doubles of whatever it is you're trying to do. I think it's neat, opens up some other options. You can actually run an Avatar and Court of the Young King this way with individual exarchs.
I had a whole post rambling about how is it possible for you to think that, but I actually found it and it does say "In matched play games, you only pay the points for models you actually have in an under-stregth unit"
Still, I can't believe people is thinking of abusing this. Most units are sold nowadays as a set, or where sold as 5 but now they are 3-6. I am a hardcore tournament player, and happy to play against the cheesiest lists, but I highly doubt this would be allowed in any tournament, and if you tried doing that to me in a friendly, I would immediately look for someone else in the club to play with.
Pretty frustrating if true.
