Greetings,
I recently purchased a Deathwatch lot to get back into 40k, and now waiting to purchase the Rulebook and index imperium 1. But for those who have been blessed seeing the leaked rules how are Deathwatch looking? Already have seen I may be swapping the IHB with other loadoits since I have 5.
I'm no expert on the Deathwatch, but I have considered starting a small force of them (I already have KT Cassius) myself to ally with my Dark Angels. That said, to me they are not looking too good in 8th. They are expensive as can be and yet just as squishy as regular marines. They do hit very hard though, especially with Frag Cannons.
Frag Cannons look like they are still good, but they did get a price bump and no longer ignore cover with the frag rounds. Infernus Bolters benefit from the combi-weapon changes, so they can fire both guns, although the HB portion will get -2 to hit if you move and fire both guns. GW had a chance to make Stalker bolters really shine and make them a good anti-character weapon, but sadly they don't get any real benefits other than increased range over standard bolters. It also looks like DW can finally take Bolt Pistols, which they oddly couldn't before. The Blackstar might be okay in this edition, but it is expensive. Still a very cool model! DW did lose the ability to run single Vanguard Vets, Termies, and Bikes, but they can now be taken singly as part of a Killteam troops choice (along with 5 regular veterans).
As for KT Cassius, some of the models got better as far as usefulness, and some got much, much worse. Gydrael (the Dark Angel) now has a viable loadout with the reduction in cost of power weapons and plasma pistols. Redblade (Space Wolf) and Donatus (Smurf) are both stock, so cheaper than before since veterans only cost 19 instead of 22. Grytt (Imperial Fist) is about the same as before, and he's probably the favorite since he has the Frag Cannon. Sorrlock (Iron Hand) is a bit more expensive but arguably better with the changes to combi-weapons. Cassius (Chaplain) and Natorian (Libby) are about the same, except that libbys are kinda meh IMO with the changes to the psychic phase. Suberei (White Scar Biker) is quite good, but unless taken as part of a Kill Team cannot be run on his own anymore. Ditto with the two Jump guys. Branatar (Termie) is the real loser, as with all his weapons (Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist) to run him WYSIWYG he costs 86 points. Yeowch!
I was thinking of maybe running 4 Frag Cannons in a drop pod or something myself, but even without any upgrades on the sarge that combo costs over 300 points! Plus, with the 9" restriction you can't even use the frag rounds after dropping, so dropping them next to a big blob is out. They could potentially bust open a light vehicle in one turn of shooting, but they just don't do enough damage to accomplish much more than that. Another idea I had would be to drop pod in a melee-oriented squad, such as some storm shields and power weapons and heavy thunder hammers. They could then attempt to charge something, using a command reroll if necessary. It wouldn't work all the time, but when it does they could do some damage. All of the transport options are probably viable now since they can be charged out of. Blackstars may be the best transport option, though, since they have a good combination of cost, firepower, and durability. Razorbacks are cheaper though, and they can still have decent firepower.
My 2 cents on Deathwatch- take with a grain of salt as I did say I'm no expert on how to run them.
Ugh, really doesn't look good and seem to be expensive no matter how I equip them.
My only hope is the come out with there own Codex like the battletomes for AOS which made some armies shine. But don't know how long I can hold out.:(
What would be some viable weapon loadouts? Should I go min/max or go 10 man. And having to flip threw everything for points and what can take what makes my head hurt. (At least on leaked pages)
Drop pods are still there, but why use them? For the "firepower" they bring? Else Deathwatch Teleport Homer can be taken for Kill Teams, Terminators, and Bikers. Characters are left behind unless in Corvus or take Termie armour.
BTW, a fluffy list for about 1500 points can be done with the following:
Plenty of room for a Watch Master, and still have room for a Knight if you swap out Watch Master for Inquisitors. Deploy HQ and Acolytes along with a Kill Team in each Corvus, Last Kill Team and the Assassins can DS in... If you know you won't be facing any Psykers, then swap Culexus for any of the other Assassins, minor points tweaks may be needed on your other loadouts though...
Pedroig wrote: Drop pods are still there, but why use them? For the "firepower" they bring? Else Deathwatch Teleport Homer can be taken for Kill Teams, Terminators, and Bikers. Characters are left behind unless in Corvus or take Termie armour.
BTW, a fluffy list for about 1500 points can be done with the following:
Plenty of room for a Watch Master, and still have room for a Knight if you swap out Watch Master for Inquisitors. Deploy HQ and Acolytes along with a Kill Team in each Corvus, Last Kill Team and the Assassins can DS in... If you know you won't be facing any Psykers, then swap Culexus for any of the other Assassins, minor points tweaks may be needed on your other loadouts though...
EDIT: Found the Drop Pod, you're right!
Also, Teleport Homers were changed to just do a recall ability rather than let them actually deep strike. Are you saying if I add 1 Terminator to a Kill Team the whole team gets Teleport Strike?
Loving the new force org charts - if you're going to play Deathwatch you gotta learn how to abuse both the FOC and the fact a lot of DW units start at one model.
Here is a DW tactics that I have been working on and slowly updating as thoughts come to me if you want to check it out.
Good read!
Minor correction, weapons are not always priced the same, some things like Thunder Hammers are easy, for units they are 20, but for Characters they are 25 (maybe inverted). But other things are a tad screwy, Force weapons carry different costs depending on whom is wielding them.
Minor math concern: Why is the number increasing in the weapon cost chart? A -1 is pretty much always a 16.7% difference in effect, though I can see how one can argue that for those weapons which "proc" on a 6, it means more. But why would the difference between a 3+ vs a 2+ be any different than a 5+ v a 4+, the effects are not additive, they start at completely different points, only the relative effectiveness should matter.
Minor chart concerns: Str should go to 16 on the Wound chart... On your Power Weapon Chart, what are you trying to show? The + to Str makes a larger difference than the - to Saves. For modifiers for attack one should almost always prioritize Number of Attacks, Modifiers to Hit (these two can be normalized pretty easily to come to a single number), then SvT, then AP. Damage is the least important to consider, it only matters against multiwound targets to begin with, and you have to GET to that roll in the first place...
Here is a DW tactics that I have been working on and slowly updating as thoughts come to me if you want to check it out.
Good read!
Minor correction, weapons are not always priced the same, some things like Thunder Hammers are easy, for units they are 20, but for Characters they are 25 (maybe inverted). But other things are a tad screwy, Force weapons carry different costs depending on whom is wielding them.
Minor math concern: Why is the number increasing in the weapon cost chart? A -1 is pretty much always a 16.7% difference in effect, though I can see how one can argue that for those weapons which "proc" on a 6, it means more. But why would the difference between a 3+ vs a 2+ be any different than a 5+ v a 4+, the effects are not additive, they start at completely different points, only the relative effectiveness should matter.
Minor chart concerns: Str should go to 16 on the Wound chart... On your Power Weapon Chart, what are you trying to show? The + to Str makes a larger difference than the - to Saves. For modifiers for attack one should almost always prioritize Number of Attacks, Modifiers to Hit (these two can be normalized pretty easily to come to a single number), then SvT, then AP. Damage is the least important to consider, it only matters against multiwound targets to begin with, and you have to GET to that roll in the first place...
Yep, that is why I said that melee is a different animal I think.
It may be a 16.7 percent change. HOWEVER the actual effect changes based on the numbers. So for example going from a 5+ to hit to a 6+ to hit is only a 16.7% chance change, it is in effect 1/2 as effective as it now takes twice as many shots to do the same amount of damage.
Example: I fire 6 shots.
2+ is 5 hits
3+ is 4 hits
4+ is 3 hits
5+ is 2 hits
6+ is 1 hit
A 2+ is 500% as effective as a 6+, a 5+ is 200% as effective as a 6+. A 3+ is 80% as effective as a 2+ etc You see what I mean? That percentage is basically saying how much more you would have to spend to get the same results.
Where does it need to go up to 16 that it doesnt? The one chart goes up to 16 and the other just says how the two stats compare to each other.
The Power weapon was just there to show how 1 atk from each weapon compared to 1 atk from any of the other weapons. You can then multiply it based on any of the other charts to get the actual result. Its just a shortcut for the power weapons specifically since that is something people are always comparing.
On Str, B&C and me don't get along, photos won't enlarge, can't register, admin don't respond to emails... If it is there, my apologies, these old eyes on that small pic looked like it only went to 10...
Power weapons: Staff is a power weapon? Let's run through math with Axe, Maul, Fist, and Sword:
Axe, Maul, Sword will all hit .67 times, Fist .5
Vs T4: Sword wounds .5, Axe and Maul .67, Fist .84
Vs 3+: Damage taken is Maul .5, Axe .67, Fist and Sword .84
So 1 die ends up with the following :
Axe .30 so .3 damage
Fist: .35 so .7 damage
Maul: .22 so .22 damage
Sword: .28 so .28 damage
Going to a T6, 4+ save (Rhino)
Hit is same, Wound becomes Axe and Sword .33, Maul .5, Fist .67, save is Axe .84, Maul .5, Fist and Sword 1
So 1 die ends up with the following:
Axe: .19 so .19 damage
Fist: .34 so .68 damage
Maul: .17 so .17 damage
Sword: .22 so .22 damage
When we look at point cost, on Marines the Maul is never worth it's cost. The Sword at 4 and the Axe at 5 is a toss up in my book, and the Fist, not worth the 4-5x in price for being 2-3x as effective on damage.
On Guardsmen, the Maul is the most efficient choice, since it grants Str 5, but yet it is still the same 4 points... The fist becomes way over priced on them though since that only gets them to Str 6...
Deathwatch in my opinion are gonna be nasty compared to what they were in 7th. Sadly I'll be retiring the frag cannon since in my opinion is not worth 30 points compared to a cheaper combi-weapon. I will be building my deathwatch as an assault variant with most units having atleast 2 attacks base is a big deal in this edition. Also for only 13 points two lightning claws are absolutely beast for black shields and watch sergeants with 4 attacks rerolling all wound rolls. Watch Masters for 130 points are an absolute steal and you'll need at least 2 for 2k points. I'll be running 3 blackstars in my list due to how cheap they are compared to other flyers and strong as well. Also Deathwatch armies overall have reduced in price. I mean they're still expensive, but now are worth every penny with new kill teams being death stars basically. All and all looking at them straight up people will complain, but once you play a couple games with them you will realize that they play different from 7th, more effective from 7th, and hell of a lot more dangerous then 7th.
So you are looking to offload some frag cannons you say.
I like them still, even for 30 points:
vs MEQ: 7 Hits on average, 4.67 wounds, 2.33 3+ saves (-1 AP), so 2.33 damage. For 30 points, same as a PC, with better performance in range, even if supercharged.
Lightning Claws def. have their place, as do TH, but I'd take the HTH for 5 more points in a heartbeat...
I have no issues with the cost on the frag cannon. The only issue is the range IMO, other than that it's spectacular. The point cost makes it tough to spam, but not impossible. It's a great overwatch weapon too, especially if you're within range of Artemis.
The downside of DW is that the cost of the special ammo is built into their base cost, which is sunk cost if you upgrade the shooting weapon. I think if you want to get serious about winning games with DW you need to be willing to either run more un-upgraded dudes to get some model count, or, even better, play a mixed army. Mixing in some guard and Inquisition will help in a bunch of ways related to model count and bubble wrap for the pricey DW guys. I think uber-upgraded DW-only lists will get stomped by a lot of armies due to low model count.
Also, it's useful to know what's efficient and not from the list of allowed Marine stuff. The fact that DW have access to Razorbacks is good (better than Predators anyway). Not like there's anything stopping you from taking whatever Imperium stuff you want of course, but it matters for buff stacking, especially if you're taking DWRBs.
One Corvus (max IMO) with some Twin-AC Razorbacks and a couple of kill teams with a restrained amount of upgrading is probably where I'd start. Probably at least a min squad of Bikes too, the Telly Homer shenanigans look good, and the special ammo is pretty killer with twin bolters. I'd look hard at adding a termie or two to each kill team too, no so much specifically because of the homer, but more because I can arm three of those fools with Assault Cannons, which sounds fun. A guy with AC and Power Sword is only 6 points more than a DW marine with Frag Cannon. so they're pretty interchangeable. Actually, in general, the ability to put 3 heavies into a 5 man squad of Terminators is excellent and should be abused at every turn.
My main beef with the list? That Storm Shields are mono-cost for the DW and they always pay the character amount of 15pts for them, rather than the 5pts every other 1W marine pays for the same item. Yeesh.
So I am guessing people would be taking the razorbacks as transports even though the unit will never ride inside correct? I like the idea of putting a termie and a biker in each kill team but then you are restricted to having them walk the board which just inherently makes me nervous, idk why.
Personally I think taking less that 2 Corvus in a 1500+ point game is really nerfing yourself.
First you can move combi-squads in them easily. However, I prefer to make more "specialized" squads and then pair them so Something like a "all" Shotgun or Frag Launcher" with a single Vanguard Vet which gets deployed in front of a regular 5 man vet with more ranged shooty and a Watch Commander type, meanwhile the second one drops off your CC unit which includes a Bike.
Meanwhile, those Corvus dropping bombs, and laying down AC, Hurricanes, etc. are thinning out the herd...
Sure back them up with a couple of Razorbacks and a HW squad for AV support, or even an Imperial Knight...
Course I also like the idea of mixing in some Xeno Inquisition folks...
Rezyn wrote: So I am guessing people would be taking the razorbacks as transports even though the unit will never ride inside correct? I like the idea of putting a termie and a biker in each kill team but then you are restricted to having them walk the board which just inherently makes me nervous, idk why.
Yup, never going to ride in 'em. Whee! If you stick to just Termies you can still use the Land Raider, although I don't see myself taking one often given the cost of the basic DW dudes (which mitigates for cheaper support). I'm thinking some bubble wrap might be in order.
I also think there's some room to covert some other marines into DW just to add flavor. I thought Grey Knight Strike Squads with Gate of Infinity, or Interceptor Squads could be fun. Obviously they'd still be <Grey Knights> but it would add some key mobility and Strike Squad is the same base cost as DW anyway.
Deathwatch tactics seem super light compared to others, not sure if that's ominous to the potential of the units or not. Anyone playtested anything yet and have something to report? I have a game this Friday and I am doing DW/Inquisition. Only 350 points of Inquisition so its mainly DW. Super excited to play and am facing nids, which seem super awesome this go around. I think he will be outnumbering me significantly, which is status quo for marines and especially DW.
Sooo, am I reading this right? We can't take the bolter/power sword combo that every marine with a bolter is forced to take because of the way the kit is made?
Rihgu wrote: Sooo, am I reading this right? We can't take the bolter/power sword combo that every marine with a bolter is forced to take because of the way the kit is made?
And we can't take a combi-/melee sergeant?
Not sure where your getting that info from. Any deathwatch vet may replace his bolter for 2 items from the deathwatch list. So you can take a single 2 handed weapon (bolter) then buy a power weapon as well. Same for the sergeant.
Dakka Wolf wrote: How do the stacking keywords work in the Deathwatch Killteams?
For the most part, they all add together. This leads to a unit with a Vanguard Veteran and a Biker having Hit and Run. It is pretty awesome. Basically means you should almost always put both in a unit, especially if there is a good combination of both shooting and melee in the unit.
Rihgu wrote: Sooo, am I reading this right? We can't take the bolter/power sword combo that every marine with a bolter is forced to take because of the way the kit is made?
And we can't take a combi-/melee sergeant?
Not sure where your getting that info from. Any deathwatch vet may replace his bolter for 2 items from the deathwatch list. So you can take a single 2 handed weapon (bolter) then buy a power weapon as well. Same for the sergeant.
Oh, right, that makes sense. I was reading it as you can either take 2 items from the top list and 1 item from the bottom list (essentially, a combi-weapon would count as 2 picks from the list). But on re-reading it it seems that the way you explained it is the correct way.
Putting three ACs into the Kill Teams has been what I've been working with in lists recently. I like. You'll have the same issues most 20-odd model count armies have, but it's cool.
Fenris-77 wrote: Putting three ACs into the Kill Teams has been what I've been working with in lists recently. I like. You'll have the same issues most 20-odd model count armies have, but it's cool.
I'd like to see the kind of lists you're working on. I feel like Deathwatch has the best troops (For marines), a very good/cheap HQ and naturally gets the Batallion detachment easily. I'm curious what other people think of Corvus spam/Frag Cannon spam. I also want to see if anyone has a good argument for taking a unit other than the Kill Team considering how flexible it is.
And a Kill Team with a Black Shield has Counter-Charge.
I get it now, to make up for being stupidly expensive Deathwatch with the right mix in a Kill Team in the right situation is stupidly flexible.
Fenris-77 wrote: Putting three ACs into the Kill Teams has been what I've been working with in lists recently. I like. You'll have the same issues most 20-odd model count armies have, but it's cool.
I'd like to see the kind of lists you're working on. I feel like Deathwatch has the best troops (For marines), a very good/cheap HQ and naturally gets the Batallion detachment easily. I'm curious what other people think of Corvus spam/Frag Cannon spam. I also want to see if anyone has a good argument for taking a unit other than the Kill Team considering how flexible it is.
I've been noodling around with some mixed lists lately, mixing DW and Grey Knights mostly, with guard stuck in sometimes. I actually quite like the mix of DW and GK for the deployment options that come with the GK units when set next to the flexibility of the DW. One of the DW units in your list above, plus the Corvus to carry them, is about 600 points. For the same 600 points you can field 6 x 5 man Grey Knight Strike squads with a Psilencer each. Still super elite feeling, still lots of deployment flexibility, but also lots more model count, lots of psychic defense, and a whole lot more dakka (that's 130+ shots w/in 12"). I was thinking about a DYI chapter that combined elements of DW and GK so it doesn't seem so piecemeal. I'm not opposed to mono-DW by any means, but I've been thinking about ways to branch out. Types of lists I've been looking at:
1. Essentially your list from above.
2. A version of that with one less Corvus and dudes replaced by Grey Knights
3. A version with one Corvus and dudes, some GKs (not 30), two smaller Kill Teams with Razor backs, and some guard bubble wrap and Scions.
4. Other units in play - Bikers mostly, I really like the special ammo combines with twin boltguns and cheap power weapons, also Librarians, because they can also buff the GK dudes
I'm playing with a lot of different ideas obviously.
Seems to me Deathwatch have their biggest struggle against vehicle heavy armies.
Gave a Necron army an absolute paddling last night, now that I know how to make Kill Teams properly (thanks to advice from casvalremdelkum) the hardest part was deciding between Hellfire and Vengeance rounds to use against Warriors - I can only imagine how bad the beating would be against a Tyrannid, Tau or Eldar army.
Vehicles are only a real issue if you fail to mount enough volume dakka. The DW have really easy access to Assault Cannons and have -AP basic weapons, so mostly they're off to a fine start against most vehicles, You just need to have at least some toys on hand to deal with T8 (although ACs aren't bad at that either if you have enough and we're not talking a 2+ save). Volume of fire is where it's at for 8th.
Seems to me not having a JP in a Kill Team is missing out. Once those 3 AC termies get locked into melee, they are simply a point sink. Being able to Fall Back and then still Shoot is quite powerful.
I prefer more specialized teams which work in tandem, so a "shooty" team with:
Sgt, 4 Frags, 1 VV, 2 Termies AC, and a Watch Captain in one Coruvs This allows them to land, shoot at penalty, take overwatch, and then fall back out of combat the next round to shoot again.
Sgt, 1 BS, 3 BP/PA, 1 Bike w. PA, in a Corvus to land behind the shooty squad, BS allows counter charge, bike allows to fall back and still charge again next turn. Oh, and filling out the Corvus with Inquistor and Acoloytes for some hitty, wound sucking goodness in the area...
Lastly, a Dev Type squad, LasCannons, Termie with AC, or even Cyclones, then depending on points, squeeze in an Assassin or two...
Three DW deployments (2 Corvus, 1 Dev team), 1-2 assassins deepstrike deployments
So turn one move up Corvus in support of one another, Devs have been placed with best LOS area in mind. Corvus hopefully were manuevered in a way that took them over at least one enemy unit to be bombed, target threats in your priority order. Get them to survive to turn 2... Charging units which cannot fallback for free and suck in melee (most armour is an idea, but if they don't fallback, you won't be able to disembark)
Turn 2, drop off the troops, shooty, shooty, risk a charge if you like, their turn Overwatch will thin their charge, you get a counter charge.
Turn 3, you get to fallback out of melee, rinse and repeat turn 2 basically.
Weaknesses:
Objective based missions, you will be hard pressed to get on enough objectives.
Your Devs are left out flapping on their own, no real DS bubble, no real "funnelers".
You have to run that fine line with your Corvus of getting them into a position that hopefully allows them to bomb each turn, and if they still have passengers ends them up at a point which can't be charged by the enemy and yet will be outside disembark mins and reasonably within charge range,
Interesting to see the diversity in everyone's list I've played against a plasma heavy blood ravens list and ad-mech. Even though there was some bad rolling with the blood ravens player Deathwatch prevailed. Those lists weren't final and I'm slowing getting gist of how I want to build future lists and what to invest in. A list I've been debating about in my opinion is pretty nasty, but I'd love to hear your guy's opinions.
2k list 7CP:
Battalion Detatchment-
HQ-
2x Watch Masters-260
Troop:
1st Kill Team- 287
Watch Sergeant- dual claws
Black Shield- dual claws
Veteran with boltgun and power sword
Veteran with power maul and stormshield
Veteran w/ frag cannon
Terminator with power sword and storm bolter
Vanguard Vet w/ dual claws
Biker w/ power axe and twin boltgun
2nd Kill Team- 342
Watch Sergeant w/ boltgun and stormshield
Biker w/ twin boltgun
Terminator w/ assault cannon and power maul
4 veterans w/ frag cannons
3rd Kill Team- 224
Black Shield w/ dual claws
Watch Sergeant w/ dual claws
3x Veterans w/ power swords and boltguns
Vanguard Vet w/ heavy thunderhammer
Biker w/ power sword and twin boltgun
4th Kill Team- 115
Black Shield w/ boltgun and power sword
Watch Sergeant w/ boltgun and power sword
3x Veterans w/ boltgun and power sword
DT- Razorback- 84
-storm bolter/ twin heavy bolter
Air Wing Detatchment- All 3 Corvus are the same
Corvus Blackstar x3- 687
-2x Blackstar Rocket Launchers, Hurricane Bolter, and Twin Assault Cannon
The 4th kill team is in the Razorback just camping back objs. while the Watch Masters hop in with 2nd and 3rd Kill Teams that are with the 1st in the Blackstars that rush down the board and try to cause havoc
Turn 2- All Blackstars disembark their kill teams and stay in hover mode. The goal is for all models keep within 6' of the rerolls and if there's blobs the Blackstars moving over them for the mortal wounds. Unload a gak ton of shots and charge the remainder, try and lock up vehicles with the frag cannons to avoid one set of shots on them and just keep clearing people out.
So I have been reading this thread closely, and I see the benefits of having all the varied units in the KT's, but man the point sink is huge! I ran a few games this last weekend with this list below against a Nids player that had overwhelming numbers against me. One list was heavy with the genestealers and another was more focused on big baddies with tons of wounds.
Both games ended with me having less than 5 models on the board. I won 1 and he won 1. To be fair, the one I won was because we did maelstrom objectives and the cards just played right into what I could achieve. First game he won by 1 VP and 2nd game I won by 1 VP and I was actually down by 5 or 6 around turn 4, so it was a come back.
I took artemis, and I know a watch master is just better. I took him cause I have his model and I wanted to give him a try. The grenade is nice though.
Couple of take aways: Coteaz was a boss. The Frag Cannons overwatch is amazing. Acolytes are hilariously awful and resilient at the same time. The heavy 12 twin assault cannons were a let down. Nids seem pretty dang powerful and well priced for the amount of threat that can field.
So I have been reading this thread closely, and I see the benefits of having all the varied units in the KT's, but man the point sink is huge! I ran a few games this last weekend with this list below against a Nids player that had overwhelming numbers against me. One list was heavy with the genestealers and another was more focused on big baddies with tons of wounds.
Both games ended with me having less than 5 models on the board. I won 1 and he won 1. To be fair, the one I won was because we did maelstrom objectives and the cards just played right into what I could achieve. First game he won by 1 VP and 2nd game I won by 1 VP and I was actually down by 5 or 6 around turn 4, so it was a come back.
I took artemis, and I know a watch master is just better. I took him cause I have his model and I wanted to give him a try. The grenade is nice though.
Couple of take aways: Coteaz was a boss. The Frag Cannons overwatch is amazing. Acolytes are hilariously awful and resilient at the same time. The heavy 12 twin assault cannons were a let down. Nids seem pretty dang powerful and well priced for the amount of threat that can field.
Would love some feedback!
Deathwatch are going to be outnumbered by just about any army using troops - Daemons, Orks, Nids, Guard and even the Space Wolves can put down nearly three models to every Veteran.
I've found the initiative is a wonderful thing to have, shooting first, being first into rapid fire range. Infantry is my first target, dropping their numbers as quickly as possible to "level" the playing field.
I'd swap the Razorbacks out for Rhinos with Hunter Killer Missiles and extra Storm Bolters.
Use any left over points to put a Terminator in the Kill Team using the Corvus Blackstar.
The Bikes drop a Homing Beacon that any unit containing a Terminator can make use of to teleport back into your deployment zone either to rally or enabling yourself to be more offensive then zap back in time to snag objectives.
I can't offer much more than that without watching you play but it sounds like your opponent had a hard time pinning you down in any way so anything that adds to your mobility options would aid you pretty good.
Hm so I think shotguns actually are pretty solid. They can dish out quite a few wounds to hordes (much more than regular boltguns), and can pop terminators pretty decently with the xenopurge rounds.
I'm guessing in general Deathwatch will need some external assistance. Like a knight, or some imperial guard. Not sure yet...
from what i observed and seen for the competitive space marine lists, people run a bunch of razorbacks and las-preds.
think a mirror list might work?
I m thinking like 5 las-razorbacks with watch master standing around for turn 1 boost. 1 corvus with dedicated kill team dropping something behind enemy line and doing damage.
In addition with 4 kill team with similar build and general purpose loadout. 1 kill team for dedicated CC.
fr3ddy wrote: anyone here running competitive deathwatch?
from what i observed and seen for the competitive space marine lists, people run a bunch of razorbacks and las-preds.
think a mirror list might work?
I m thinking like 5 las-razorbacks with watch master standing around for turn 1 boost. 1 corvus with dedicated kill team dropping something behind enemy line and doing damage.
In addition with 4 kill team with similar build and general purpose loadout. 1 kill team for dedicated CC.
Any ideas guys?
No on the competitive DW, they'd be much better if they actually had access to tech priests.
Best use for DW in my opinion is Marine Enforcers for Guard.
From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
Balance is a laugh.
To get proper balance on a game like 40k you'd need several number crunchers, a large number of properly capable rule lawyers and a large number of high level gamers as well as several months just to test and edit.
Even games with rapid releases like MtG struggle with balance.
Still trying to figure out if I want a terminator with Assault cannon and powerfist/melta combo, or just run them as Assault cannon and power sword to be cheaper. what are your thoughts? cheaper sounds better, but being able to fire both the assault cannon and the melta sounds appealing too.
I've found the best thing for Deathwatch is to find a solid vehicle killing unit and spam Hellfire rounds on anything that doesn't identify itself as a vehicle.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Cause of how you can pick what models take wounds/die first, I give most of my BS thunder hammers (have 3 attacks are the best for your "big melee weapons", them and the sergeant), moreover I have been doubling them up with combi-plasma's or combi-melta's etc (you want your big points toys on just a few model's to minimise points loss when soldiers in the unit die).
I dont mind Frag cannons but I think they need to be with certain units (eg shotguns or combi-flamers etc so can move and advance and still shoot if on foot etc or if in a unit that is leaving a corvus, even then is meh).
For same cost you can get 2xCombi-plasma's (you dont have to over charge or shoot both if dont want etc), they have great versatility, more potential damage at various ranges (espec if supported by a master). (+ many other combos at 30 points more viable). I still run them though but just saying if super competitive, other options.
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conker249 wrote: Still trying to figure out if I want a terminator with Assault cannon and powerfist/melta combo, or just run them as Assault cannon and power sword to be cheaper. what are your thoughts? cheaper sounds better, but being able to fire both the assault cannon and the melta sounds appealing too.
1x Assault cannon & Power sword: 57
1x Assault cannon & Power fist/melta: 90
1x Storm bolter & Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1x Power sword: 88
Put last 1 in for comparison (another option if want a terminator at that cost). It all depends on the unit you are running him with, cant really give advice if don't know the rest of the unit (however, it is always better to condense points/fire power onto single models then spread it around with the new causality rules).
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
Ok maybe I am wrong but here are my thoughts. If playing Pure DW they are very elite (even if minimilse points cost per soldier you will have a very small army in comparison to others). Pistol are useless if run a vet kill team with vanguards or bikers (as the guy said he was) because pistols only work on your shooting phase:
If he is running vanguard in a squad (with frag cannons and prob shooty termies (even if not to shooty) there is no point on putting pistols on anyone. From my interpretation (maybe wrong) pistols only work on your shooting phase (so must be in melee either the turn after being charged or you have charged, combated the enemy, the enemy then had there turn and you still in combat on yours and then can use a pistol.....for an elite army like DW your boned by that time. You can't waste all that time). If have a vanguard, would disengage in your movement phase and then shoot with all your guns/big guns at that unit or another. Can charge it with a different unit if the unit still is a threat. If you get charged and want to stay in melee is only time maybe viable, however, (though I would take a biker over termie even if worth 3 over 2 if running more melee, in a corvus can still run 6x vets, 1x vanguard, 1x biker and a hero) with a vanguard, frag cannon and termie (maybe ass cannon) you prob want to disengage.
However, all is dependent on what the complete unit is running, the army and their role etc. A unit that has a frag cannon (expensive) a vanguard and a termie means is either in a corvus/land raider (So the unit wants to get the job done), if foot slogging are going to be to expensive to be worth it. If he wants his BS to be super cheap I would run PS & boltgun.
I like to run my BS and Serg with the best melee weaps I can afford for that squad, because they will be the last units to die in the squad (they have the most attacks and LD). Moreover, I like to give them a combi-weap beacuse 1. still gives them special ammo and 2. gives them viability against most targets.
These are just my musings/ramblings, please offer your opinions if think I am wrong or can enlighten me to the value of pistols on a vet kill team that has a vanguard or a biker.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
Ok maybe I am wrong but here are my thoughts. If playing Pure DW they are very elite (even if minimilse points cost per soldier you will have a very small army in comparison to others). Pistol are useless if run a vet kill team with vanguards or bikers (as the guy said he was) because pistols only work on your shooting phase:
If he is running vanguard in a squad (with frag cannons and prob shooty termies (even if not to shooty) there is no point on putting pistols on anyone. From my interpretation (maybe wrong) pistols only work on your shooting phase (so must be in melee either the turn after being charged or you have charged, combated the enemy, the enemy then had there turn and you still in combat on yours and then can use a pistol.....for an elite army like DW your boned by that time. You can't waste all that time). If have a vanguard, would disengage in your movement phase and then shoot with all your guns/big guns at that unit or another. Can charge it with a different unit if the unit still is a threat. If you get charged and want to stay in melee is only time maybe viable, however, (though I would take a biker over termie even if worth 3 over 2 if running more melee, in a corvus can still run 6x vets, 1x vanguard, 1x biker and a hero) with a vanguard, frag cannon and termie (maybe ass cannon) you prob want to disengage.
However, all is dependent on what the complete unit is running, the army and their role etc. A unit that has a frag cannon (expensive) a vanguard and a termie means is either in a corvus/land raider (So the unit wants to get the job done), if foot slogging are going to be to expensive to be worth it. If he wants his BS to be super cheap I would run PS & boltgun.
I like to run my BS and Serg with the best melee weaps I can afford for that squad, because they will be the last units to die in the squad (they have the most attacks and LD). Moreover, I like to give them a combi-weap beacuse 1. still gives them special ammo and 2. gives them viability against most targets.
These are just my musings/ramblings, please offer your opinions if think I am wrong or can enlighten me to the value of pistols on a vet kill team that has a vanguard or a biker.
They're fair musings.
Personally I get value by going cheap and trying to get the most out of natural offerings like Specialised Ammo.
We don't need costly, special weapons to hunt MCs, our only need for that is vehicle killing.
The only other option I'd bother with on a generalist Black Shield is the Chainsword which offers an extra attack at no AP, good for when the enemy is packing ++ saves like Daemons and Storm Shields, ap modifiers won't help you but extra attacks will. Unless you're expecting absolutely every one of its turns to be spent outside of twelve inches of absolutely every enemy model and every charge this generalist team makes to be a Heroic Intervention coughing up no points for a Bolt Pistol means you can be involved up to twelve inches in the shooting phase, it's not like we have to charge what we shoot anymore or even shoot what the rest of the team shoots - for the most part my generalist teams are geared for laying down Specialised Ammo shots, twelve inches or less is a happy and so far common range to my Deathwatch Kill Teams.
If said Black Shield was part of my Bully Boys squad he'd be packing a pair of Lightning Claws.
Interesting perspectives thanks guys. For context, right now I'll be using a single generalist KT with a Librarian in a Blackstar, as part of an Ordo Xenos force with an Inquisitor & mostly Storm Troopers. The Storm Troopers will be in Chimeras, because despite how lacklustre they are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers go in Chimeras dagnabbit.
I'm mostly building them based on making them an interesting mix of "characters", but while I enjoy working within the fluff(after it's been suitably pruned to remove rubbish like post-Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium material) on the rare occasions I get to game these days it's usually pickup games against random folk I don't know, so I accept I have to make some concessions to the realities of the rules so long as I can avoid doing anything too "gamey".
Right now the KT consists of:
Librarian w/ Force Sword & DW Bolter.
Sergeant w/ Power Sword or 'Phase Blade & DW Bolter.
2x DW Vets w/ Chainsword & DW Bolter.
Vet w/ Power Sword & DW Bolter.
Vet w/ DW Stalker.
Vanguard w/ Chainsword & Plasma Pistol.
Vet w/ Frag Cannon
Terminator w/ Assault Cannon & Power Sword.
And then the Blackshield that I've yet to decide on. And if you think that's too fluffy, you should have seen it when I had an Ironwrought(homebrew IH successor) "breacher" with a Storm Shield and Shotgun in there, hah.
Pistols can be used outside of Melee range. You just have to choose to use either the Pistol or the other weapons, you can mix and match within an unit, but each model either fires one or the other.
Thematically the "specialist" teams work as well. One only need to imagine that the problem was big enough for a "squad" or "platoon" sized force to be sent, and the CO basically says " You 4, work with those two and get in that, and head over there" "You five go with Sgt Hand, and wait in the Tele chamber", etc.
For matched play, I prefer a TAC army list, but comprised of specialist teams
He's not "in" the team per se, but Librarians are on the list of permitted <Deathwatch> unit entries so I just made sure my KT would come to 11 transport capacity to leave room for the libby in the Blackstar.
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
I mean, in tournaments you're going to see min-maxed lists, that's a fact of life. Personally, my Deathwatch (who are admittedly a fairly minor allied component I add to Guard) I run in a roughly melee/ranged split, two squads of five sharing one Drop Pod. My fluff is that the squads are actually one killteam, but that the fire support doesn't really engage in close melee because it would be foolish to do so.
I run 1 squad with 2x Frag Cannons, 2x Combi-meltas (one combi-melta guy has a Storm Shield), one standard boltgun. Second squad 1 shotgun/shield, 1 powerfist/shotgun (I believe this build is still legal, but depends on reading and if it does get FAQed I'll have to rebuild this guy), 1 HTH Blackshield, 1 Power sword/Boltgun, 1 chainsword/boltgun. The weird loadouts are in part that 5/10 are the original DW:O snapfit guys, who I have only been able to slightly modify.
Just recently I played them against a fairly nasty Sisters list (celestine+gals, melta dominions, double tapping act of faith Retributors rerolling 1s to hit, organ tanks) and the deathwatch were 100% the star of the show, dropping in and almost entirely blowing away an organ tank and a squad of retributors and then continuing to smash things up. Shooty squad died immediately, but punchy squad kept fighting until turn 4.
From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
I mean, in tournaments you're going to see min-maxed lists, that's a fact of life. Personally, my Deathwatch (who are admittedly a fairly minor allied component I add to Guard) I run in a roughly melee/ranged split, two squads of five sharing one Drop Pod. My fluff is that the squads are actually one killteam, but that the fire support doesn't really engage in close melee because it would be foolish to do so.
I run 1 squad with 2x Frag Cannons, 2x Combi-meltas (one combi-melta guy has a Storm Shield), one standard boltgun. Second squad 1 shotgun/shield, 1 powerfist/shotgun (I believe this build is still legal, but depends on reading and if it does get FAQed I'll have to rebuild this guy), 1 HTH Blackshield, 1 Power sword/Boltgun, 1 chainsword/boltgun. The weird loadouts are in part that 5/10 are the original DW:O snapfit guys, who I have only been able to slightly modify.
Just recently I played them against a fairly nasty Sisters list (celestine+gals, melta dominions, double tapping act of faith Retributors rerolling 1s to hit, organ tanks) and the deathwatch were 100% the star of the show, dropping in and almost entirely blowing away an organ tank and a squad of retributors and then continuing to smash things up. Shooty squad died immediately, but punchy squad kept fighting until turn 4.
My list that absolutely cleaned up at my last tournament was:
HQ Watch Captain+ Jump Pack
Librarian+ Force Sword
TROOP
4x Vets+ VVets+ BShield+ Shotgun
4x Vets+ VVets+ Bshield+ Shotgun
4x Vets+ VVets+ Shotgun
3x Terminator+ Paired Claws+ BShield+ Biker
Outrider
HQ Librarian+ Force Sword
Fast Attack
5x Biker
5x Biker
5x Biker
Most other lists used small numbers of vehicles and really did not appreciate their biggest and baddest being wounded on a 2+ by Specialised Ammo, I got Psychic happy against the Daemons and Tyrannids and nulled a few units' Invul saves.
The Blackstar kept the enemy vehicles in line.
We're better at killing Daemons than Grey Knights.
Buy a Biker and some Stalker Pattern Bolters.
The Biker will give you a Homing Beacon to use with one of the Terminator Kill Teams, meaning you can venture further afield and zap back to your deployment zone.
So how many of you guys and gals have experimented with a mixed army? I think the lack of chaff units are one of our biggest weaknesses. I plan on playing a few games in the coming weeks using a hybrid deathwatch/marine army. The reason being is scouts are very cheap and Hardy enough for their cost to either be speed bumps for fast assault armies that would allow use a lose bubble wrap to stop deep striking onto the more vulnerable elements of the army. They are able to get close enough turn one to potentially tie up shooting units that hurt our fragile troops.
My prefered unit in the army is easily a 5 man vet unit with bolters and chainswords as for fairly cheap they are extremely versatile in taking on any non vehicle unit.
I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
0604854 wrote: I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
I'm tossing up between playing King of the Hill with my Deathwatch at the next Tournament, trying to build a vehicle bashing list or just going back to my Space Wolves.
I'm not sure what to do...
0604854 wrote: I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
I'm tossing up between playing King of the Hill with my Deathwatch at the next Tournament, trying to build a vehicle bashing list or just going back to my Space Wolves.
I'm not sure what to do...
It depends on what missions the tournaments using. King of the hill would certainly work but putting the master in a drop pod with some buddies flying the fliers up to them and then blasting them.
If you're up against a hoard or melee army they're worth every point, if you're up against an elite shootie army you need a way of shuttling the Canons about or an objective like the Relic to force your opponent to go to an area of your choosing.
If you're up against a hoard or melee army they're worth every point, if you're up against an elite shootie army you need a way of shuttling the Canons about or an objective like the Relic to force your opponent to go to an area of your choosing.
Drop pods maybe or put into another form of transport?
0604854 wrote: I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
I'm tossing up between playing King of the Hill with my Deathwatch at the next Tournament, trying to build a vehicle bashing list or just going back to my Space Wolves.
I'm not sure what to do...
It depends on what missions the tournaments using. King of the hill would certainly work but putting the master in a drop pod with some buddies flying the fliers up to them and then blasting them.
King of the Hill where I play means the winner of the last tournament uses the same list so everyone else can take a crack or a second crack at it.
In most cases its a challenge but my list was a surprise to everyone else - not something especially challenging to knock down.
Almost any vehicle army would curb-stomp it.
0604854 wrote: I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
I'm tossing up between playing King of the Hill with my Deathwatch at the next Tournament, trying to build a vehicle bashing list or just going back to my Space Wolves.
I'm not sure what to do...
It depends on what missions the tournaments using. King of the hill would certainly work but putting the master in a drop pod with some buddies flying the fliers up to them and then blasting them.
King of the Hill where I play means the winner of the last tournament uses the same list so everyone else can take a crack or a second crack at it.
In most cases its a challenge but my list was a surprise to everyone else - not something especially challenging to knock down.
Almost any vehicle army would curb-stomp it.
You could do Razorback spam using the rerolls to hit to bring the pain.
0604854 wrote: I think everyone is underestimating the potential of deathwatch:
Watchmasters are awesome, do you know hard it is to get straight up reroll rolls to hit! most armies have to go for an expensive special character and even then they are only getting one of these!
Complete flexibility in what we take in kill teams allowing us to create custom units.
We have a good flier and still have access to some good space marine vehicles (namely Razorbacks)
I'm tossing up between playing King of the Hill with my Deathwatch at the next Tournament, trying to build a vehicle bashing list or just going back to my Space Wolves.
I'm not sure what to do...
It depends on what missions the tournaments using. King of the hill would certainly work but putting the master in a drop pod with some buddies flying the fliers up to them and then blasting them.
King of the Hill where I play means the winner of the last tournament uses the same list so everyone else can take a crack or a second crack at it.
In most cases its a challenge but my list was a surprise to everyone else - not something especially challenging to knock down.
Almost any vehicle army would curb-stomp it.
You could do Razorback spam using the rerolls to hit to bring the pain.
Fair call. Chances are good everyone will bring vehicles, just join the fun.
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Da-Rock wrote: I am rolling with a 1500pt list centered around:
3 Kill Teams and 2 Blackstars with a Venerable Dread as a gun platform.
I played a variation of it yesterday and it did very well. The Blackstars are really nice!
How do you guys keep deepstrikers from dropping in 1st turn and Melta blasting the Blackstars?
Set as much of your your stuff up no more than eighteen inches away from the Blackstar in all directions. If nothing can land closer than eighteen inches away most melta weapons won't reach and even if they have ranged ones like Multimeltas to drop they won't be close enough to roll 2d6. It also means they've dropped expensive stuff in range of all your retaliations.
What do people think about term squads with 3x ac and 5x ps? Deep strike in and unleash a pretty solid torrent on fire support, screeners or exposed characters. Decent durability and have the ps so they're not helpless in assault. Maybe a bit expensive compared to other imperial fire support, haven't run the numbers
Da-Rock wrote: I have thought about that and Heavy Flamers, (if I could get some Bikers to drop a homer).
Not sure how much better Assault Cannons would be compared to a standard Kill team squad....price wise. They would live longer, but its hard to say.
Problem with HF is you cant DS and fire.
Durability wise I'm pretty sure they're conaiderably more durable vs more small arms, per point. They cost on average just over 2 marines, while having the increased save. High AP weapons, got to factor in invuln save.
Until we get cheaper drop pods in a later date, or our old deepstriking, kill teams seem to really need the corvus which is a shame
Da-Rock wrote: I have thought about that and Heavy Flamers, (if I could get some Bikers to drop a homer).
Not sure how much better Assault Cannons would be compared to a standard Kill team squad....price wise. They would live longer, but its hard to say.
Problem with HF is you cant DS and fire.
Doesn't the beacon dropped by Bikers allow units to deepstrike closer than 9" or am I thinking of other armies?
Thinking of other armies. The beacon is placed in your spawn and can teleport back at the start of any of your turns. Basically if people are in your backfield, etc
Brand new to DW here, I currently have 2 5man (or a 10 man) kill team to assemble, my question is should I wait for a codex or build around the builds the index made popular?
And or, any suggestions on loadouts?
Im also converting all my Primaris marines from DI to Deathwatch, but im leaving their weapons the same for now
Da-Rock wrote: I have thought about that and Heavy Flamers, (if I could get some Bikers to drop a homer).
Not sure how much better Assault Cannons would be compared to a standard Kill team squad....price wise. They would live longer, but its hard to say.
Problem with HF is you cant DS and fire.
Doesn't the beacon dropped by Bikers allow units to deepstrike closer than 9" or am I thinking of other armies?
Thinking of other armies. The beacon is placed in your spawn and can teleport back at the start of any of your turns. Basically if people are in your backfield, etc
Where is all that info. I am missing it and wondered how it worked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Brand new to DW here, I currently have 2 5man (or a 10 man) kill team to assemble, my question is should I wait for a codex or build around the builds the index made popular?
And or, any suggestions on loadouts?
Im also converting all my Primaris marines from DI to Deathwatch, but im leaving their weapons the same for now
I too am using my Primaris marines along with the 10 man Kill Team starter I bought.
So far I can tell you that x4 Deathwatch Frag Cannons are crazy good! I haven't tried out the shotguns yet because I like the standard bolter's special ammunition. I like using a Librarian, (I sub in the Gravis Captain as a Libby).
The Blackstars are hated by my group, but of course I love the two I have.
I haven't had a chance to play the dreadnought yet.
The Dread isn't bad but it's also kind of 'Meh'.
It's nothing special in melee, it has Heavy Weapons but most are short-ranged like the Plasma and Assault Cannons and suffer penalties when you move into range or stupidly expensive like the twin lascannon.
Only consistent role I've found for the Dread so far is objective sitting in terrain with the Lascannon.
In my opinion to have successful kill teams Deathwatch need to have kill teams built around absolutely murdering a specific thing then throw that kill team in a Corvus and go straight into enemy lines to take out that specific thing. So far that's what I've been doing and haven't lost yet. Deathwatch in 8th is so flexible it's jaw dropping what they can do. Also combi-plasmas and a watch master in a corvus.... That's a beauty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also with the Corvus have them take the infernium which i think makes units with the fly keyword -1 to hit on the blackstar on top of the supersonic so almost all tau are at a -2 to hit it's absurd!!
stewe128 wrote: In my opinion to have successful kill teams Deathwatch need to have kill teams built around absolutely murdering a specific thing then throw that kill team in a Corvus and go straight into enemy lines to take out that specific thing. So far that's what I've been doing and haven't lost yet. Deathwatch in 8th is so flexible it's jaw dropping what they can do. Also combi-plasmas and a watch master in a corvus.... That's a beauty.
I'm curious what you mean specific things - from my experience there's only four categories of opposition, vehicles, vehicles in cover, non-vehicles and non-vehicles in cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also with the Corvus have them take the infernium which i think makes units with the fly keyword -1 to hit on the blackstar on top of the supersonic so almost all tau are at a -2 to hit it's absurd!!
I never noticed that, all this time I've been flying a -1 penalty to hit Blackstar.
Goodbye Vanguard detachment with VVets, Termies and Dreads, hello Patrol detachment with Kill Team, an extra Blackstar and Halo Launchers.
You just solved my vehicle problem.
So ive been making extra DW using the bits from the killteam boxes, DW upgrade sprues, and the BoC box.
So far I was thinking of 3 kill teams,
3 combi plasmas with swords (sgt has 1 and the xenophase) a 2 swords blackshield, and a frag cannon
Team 2 Im thinking 2 infernus hb, 2 or 3 shotguns, and a blackshield with dual claws
Any suggestions for the last team? I still have one more frag cannon, maybe that with squad one and the blackshield moved to a melee squad 3? Im Also converting the DV Librarian, chaplain, and AC termy to the Watch too, for extra goodness
Page 174 - Deathwatch Terminators
Change the Crux Terminatus rule to read:
"Models in this unit have a 5+invulnerable save."
Seems pretty clear to me...
They changed it from TERMINATORS have 5+ invul save to models IN THIS UNIT have a 5+ invul save.
Like it or not the Terminators on page 173 Crux Terminatus is still limited to Deathwatch Terminators have 5+ invuln save.
They've changed it from a keyword that actually granted it to the Kill Team to a unit specific statement.
The Kill Team Terminators on page 173 have a different Crux Terminatus to those on 174.
We missed the boat on that bad wording 5++ save for the Kill Team.
Can a kill team get one terminator with Storm Shield and thunderhammer stand front of the rest of killteam and eat all moral wounds as it can ? Act as Riot shield in real life heh.
I'd Storm Shield the Termie if it wasn't a package deal with the 20 point Hammer, personally I'd just keep the Storm Bolter and replace the Power Fist with a cheaper Power Weapon, that's half a Terminator saved right there.
I was really hoping the Terminators would add extra protection in the squad for being there, rather than being an expensive bullet sponge...
Squads with a Terminator can be put down in your opponent's deployment zone - say via Blackstar delivery - and use any available Deathwatch Homing Beacons in order to jump back to your deployment zone. Ever hear the saying "best defense is no be there."?
Terminator with heavy weapon in squad strike priority target hard and sponge down enemy weapons AP-0 or in cover for AP-1, maybe add Veteran with good pistol and Storm shield for sponge down enemy's high AP weapon..
Biker squad out flanked the enemy and active homing beacon, then Killteam Squad can teleport to homing beacon.
Sort of shout 'look at me!' distracting to your opponent while you draw a big picture of your plan.
Solidcrash wrote: Terminator with heavy weapon in squad strike priority target hard and sponge down enemy weapons AP-0 or in cover for AP-1, maybe add Veteran with good pistol and Storm shield for sponge down enemy's high AP weapon..
Biker squad out flanked the enemy and active homing beacon, then Killteam Squad can teleport to homing beacon.
Sort of shout 'look at me!' distracting to your opponent while you draw a big picture of your plan.
Super important (but quick) question... Can I replace my standard issue blowgun with a Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, and then exchange THAT boltgun for an InfernusHB
Man I can't wait for an army builder that cuts through the insanity of looking at 4 different pages, then the FAQ and then the forums for interpretation of it all.
Homing Beacons from the Bikers. Do they set it on one of their turns or are they auto placed during deployment?
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: So ive been making extra DW using the bits from the killteam boxes, DW upgrade sprues, and the BoC box.
So far I was thinking of 3 kill teams,
3 combi plasmas with swords (sgt has 1 and the xenophase) a 2 swords blackshield, and a frag cannon
Team 2 Im thinking 2 infernus hb, 2 or 3 shotguns, and a blackshield with dual claws
Any suggestions for the last team? I still have one more frag cannon, maybe that with squad one and the blackshield moved to a melee squad 3? Im Also converting the DV Librarian, chaplain, and AC termy to the Watch too, for extra goodness
The only successful 2 sword models would be ones with chainswords since it doesn't stack. Keep that in mind. Also mix your kill teams with bikes, vanguards, and terminators. You will have a lot more fun building the kill teams and have a hell of a lot more synergy.
stewe128 wrote: In my opinion to have successful kill teams Deathwatch need to have kill teams built around absolutely murdering a specific thing then throw that kill team in a Corvus and go straight into enemy lines to take out that specific thing. So far that's what I've been doing and haven't lost yet. Deathwatch in 8th is so flexible it's jaw dropping what they can do. Also combi-plasmas and a watch master in a corvus.... That's a beauty.
I'm curious what you mean specific things - from my experience there's only four categories of opposition, vehicles, vehicles in cover, non-vehicles and non-vehicles in cover..
I'd say vehicles, mobs, standard infantry, and monsters. Fun fact with monsters like a daemon prince from fw. Deathwatch can use their 2+ ammo on them since it's not a vehicle lol its GLORIOUS!! But building certain kill teams around getting rid of vehicles, mobs, and etc will make them a lot more dangerous. For example: against vehicles having at least 2 heavy thunderhammers in there for the walking lascannons.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Super important (but quick) question... Can I replace my standard issue blowgun with a Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, and then exchange THAT boltgun for an InfernusHB
No, multiple swaps don't seem to be a thing this edition. You can try and argue it, but it'll just come off as smacking of desperation.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: So ive been making extra DW using the bits from the killteam boxes, DW upgrade sprues, and the BoC box.
So far I was thinking of 3 kill teams,
3 combi plasmas with swords (sgt has 1 and the xenophase) a 2 swords blackshield, and a frag cannon
Team 2 Im thinking 2 infernus hb, 2 or 3 shotguns, and a blackshield with dual claws
Any suggestions for the last team? I still have one more frag cannon, maybe that with squad one and the blackshield moved to a melee squad 3? Im Also converting the DV Librarian, chaplain, and AC termy to the Watch too, for extra goodness
The only successful 2 sword models would be ones with chainswords since it doesn't stack. Keep that in mind. Also mix your kill teams with bikes, vanguards, and terminators. You will have a lot more fun building the kill teams and have a hell of a lot more synergy.
stewe128 wrote: In my opinion to have successful kill teams Deathwatch need to have kill teams built around absolutely murdering a specific thing then throw that kill team in a Corvus and go straight into enemy lines to take out that specific thing. So far that's what I've been doing and haven't lost yet. Deathwatch in 8th is so flexible it's jaw dropping what they can do. Also combi-plasmas and a watch master in a corvus.... That's a beauty.
I'm curious what you mean specific things - from my experience there's only four categories of opposition, vehicles, vehicles in cover, non-vehicles and non-vehicles in cover.
I'd say vehicles, mobs, standard infantry, and monsters. Fun fact with monsters like a daemon prince from fw. Deathwatch can use their 2+ ammo on them since it's not a vehicle lol its GLORIOUS!! But building certain kill teams around getting rid of vehicles, mobs, and etc will make them a lot more dangerous. For example: against vehicles having at least 2 heavy thunderhammers in there for the walking lascannons.
Not overly fond of HTHammers, I managed most of my vehicle killing with a Razorback and a Blackstar and thanks to your point about the Blackstar's little party trick I'll be doing it with two Blackstars and a Razorback and have more Specialised Ammo for dealing with Mobs.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Super important (but quick) question... Can I replace my standard issue blowgun with a Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, and then exchange THAT boltgun for an InfernusHB
No, multiple swaps don't seem to be a thing this edition. You can try and argue it, but it'll just come off as smacking of desperation.
I just want to model pistols on my Deathwatch models with Hweapons because of course theyd have one fluff wise, but if its against the rules I could pry it off I suppose
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hold up, unless Kill Team Cassius has non legal options, the Imperial Fist has a pistol and a frag cannon? Was this legal in 7th and not now? Or is it a sign that the double swap works? (I only intend to do it to add pistols to characters without a close range option because itll look better )
It wasn't legal back then either, Kill Teams didn't even have access to pistols. The special character version of his kill team might have, but I don't remember that. You can just model the pistol and just ignore it, not like anyone's checking out the belt on your marines anyway.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: not like anyone's checking out the belt on your marines anyway.
Easy there, I happen to enjoy modeling my marines with grenades, pouches, and pistols, and they all add color to the black DW paint scheme, so people probably will be checking out my kitbash work thank you very much
MasterSlowPoke wrote: not like anyone's checking out the belt on your marines anyway.
Easy there, I happen to enjoy modeling my marines with grenades, pouches, and pistols, and they all add color to the black DW paint scheme, so people probably will be checking out my kitbash work thank you very much
Yeah?
Most people in my area look straight to the chapter shoulder pads then go looking for parts that don't fit with that chapter.
"You know you have an awful lot of Space Wolves in here, why so many?"
"Cause I play Space Wolves".
MasterSlowPoke wrote: not like anyone's checking out the belt on your marines anyway.
Easy there, I happen to enjoy modeling my marines with grenades, pouches, and pistols, and they all add color to the black DW paint scheme, so people probably will be checking out my kitbash work thank you very much
Yeah?
Most people in my area look straight to the chapter shoulder pads then go looking for parts that don't fit with that chapter.
"You know you have an awful lot of Space Wolves in here, why so many?"
"Cause I play Space Wolves".
I can imagine it now "hey how come you have so many chapters in there?" I play deathwatch
So, I've been eyeing the Deathwatch models at my shop for a while now but don't want to commit to a full army. I was thinking of maybe allying in 3-500 points or so with my Imperial Guard. Are there any units that would pair well with them at that points cost?
For 3-500 points, I'd look to a Jump Pack Captain, Vanguard Vets, and/or Deathwatch Termies. They'll give you maneuverability and durability that the IG lack. Basic Kill Teams would probably overlap with IG.
I'd nab an Outrider detachment, Jump Captain and a few units of Bikers,
Deathwatch Terminators are no different to any Space Marine Terminators, Bikers and Vanguard Vets are the only really unique units Deathwatch can offer up for cheap.
With Bikers you can lay down a heap of Special Ammunition Hellfire rounds to off tougher models like TWC, Bikes and Monstrous Creatures so your Guard only really need to focus on weak Infantry and Vehicles.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Deathwatch Termies at least get 3 special weapons, for as much as that's worth. I agree Bikers are probably the better buy.
There's nothing wrong with Terminators but check these stats -
Assault Cannon 24' Heavy6 S6 AP-1 D1 for 21 points.
HFlamer 8' HeavyD6 S5 AP-1 D1 100% accuracy for 17 points.
Cyclone ML for 50 points + Stormbolter
- Frag 36' Heavy2D3 S4 AP0 D1
- Krak 36' Heavy2 S8 AP-2 D D6 - SBolter 24' rapidfire2 S4 AP0 D1
If Storm Bolters had Special Ammo I'd be all over Termies with their Deep Strike ability.
The Biker's two Boltguns are "free" and versatile.
Bonus for shooting into cover.
2+ poison against non-vehicles.
Range and small ap boost.
Range drop for bigger ap boost.
Thinking about adding the Reivers to my list to have a little splash of no overwatch. Question is will the Reivers be able to use special issue ammo...
Should be.. there are Stalker boltgun rifle and Bolt pistol in Deathwatch Index, and Reiver use master craft 'Stalker boltgun rifle' and Heavy 'Bolt pistol'...
Storm Bolter is combi-boltgun, should be count as twin boltgun.
Solidcrash wrote: Should be.. there are Stalker boltgun rifle and Bolt pistol in Deathwatch Index, and Reiver use master craft 'Stalker boltgun rifle' and Heavy 'Bolt pistol'...
Storm Bolter is combi-boltgun, should be count as twin boltgun.
The Primaris Captain has a MC Auto Bolt Rifle ro MC Stalker Bolt Rifle, and the Rievers have Heavy Bolt Pistols. None of them are on the SIA list, so they don't get anything.
Furthermore, none of them have the SIA ability anyway, so even if those weapons were on the list they still wouldn't get it.
Solidcrash wrote: Should be.. there are Stalker boltgun rifle and Bolt pistol in Deathwatch Index, and Reiver use master craft 'Stalker boltgun rifle' and Heavy 'Bolt pistol'...
Storm Bolter is combi-boltgun, should be count as twin boltgun.
The Primaris Captain has a MC Auto Bolt Rifle ro MC Stalker Bolt Rifle, and the Rievers have Heavy Bolt Pistols. None of them are on the SIA list, so they don't get anything.
Furthermore, none of them have the SIA ability anyway, so even if those weapons were on the list they still wouldn't get it.
Youve been very rude to people and I hope beyond hope when the codex drops they get SIA when included in a deathwatch army just so youre wrong
MasterSlowPoke wrote:They don't have to stand in front, but don't do that anyway, storm shields don't block mortal wounds.
Dakka Wolf wrote:I'd Storm Shield the Termie if it wasn't a package deal with the 20 point Hammer, personally I'd just keep the Storm Bolter and replace the Power Fist with a cheaper Power Weapon, that's half a Terminator saved right there.
Storm shields are on the standard equipment list, IIRC, so you have the option of equipping bog standard vets with, say, storm shields and storm bolters. You don't need a termie to include a stormshield if you want to avoid taking the thunderhammer.
I just got my airbrush in the mail yesterday, so I'm going to be looking at sprues and planning out my first killteam model tonight. I'm doing a pure deathwatch force for 8th with 3-5 purpose-specific kill-teams supported by a watch master and some inquisitors. The plan is to have everyone mounted in Blackstars in their own air wing (because I'd need 3 of them)
I may also paint up some acolytes. I need to take a closer look at their datacard.
I like inquisitors more than Deathwatch librarians first, because they're cheaper, and second because they can deny enemy units overwatch with their leadership-tanking psychic ability. Though, Null Field is very, very attractive, but a librarian would be competing with a watch master.
Solidcrash wrote: Should be.. there are Stalker boltgun rifle and Bolt pistol in Deathwatch Index, and Reiver use master craft 'Stalker boltgun rifle' and Heavy 'Bolt pistol'...
Storm Bolter is combi-boltgun, should be count as twin boltgun.
The Primaris Captain has a MC Auto Bolt Rifle ro MC Stalker Bolt Rifle, and the Rievers have Heavy Bolt Pistols. None of them are on the SIA list, so they don't get anything.
Furthermore, none of them have the SIA ability anyway, so even if those weapons were on the list they still wouldn't get it.
Youve been very rude to people and I hope beyond hope when the codex drops they get SIA when included in a deathwatch army just so youre wrong
I've been debating with SlowPoke on different subjects for a little over a month, he/she doesn't beat about the bush with nicities but he isn't rude, he/she just sticks to the facts.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:They don't have to stand in front, but don't do that anyway, storm shields don't block mortal wounds.
Dakka Wolf wrote:I'd Storm Shield the Termie if it wasn't a package deal with the 20 point Hammer, personally I'd just keep the Storm Bolter and replace the Power Fist with a cheaper Power Weapon, that's half a Terminator saved right there.
Storm shields are on the standard equipment list, IIRC, so you have the option of equipping bog standard vets with, say, storm shields and storm bolters. You don't need a termie to include a stormshield if you want to avoid taking the thunderhammer.
I just got my airbrush in the mail yesterday, so I'm going to be looking at sprues and planning out my first killteam model tonight. I'm doing a pure deathwatch force for 8th with 3-5 purpose-specific kill-teams supported by a watch master and some inquisitors. The plan is to have everyone mounted in Blackstars in their own air wing (because I'd need 3 of them)
I may also paint up some acolytes. I need to take a closer look at their datacard.
I like inquisitors more than Deathwatch librarians first, because they're cheaper, and second because they can deny enemy units overwatch with their leadership-tanking psychic ability. Though, Null Field is very, very attractive, but a librarian would be competing with a watch master.
Maybe I'm a bit archaic in my thinking now that Storm Shields can be picked up for five points but I never bothered nabbing them unless their bearer had more than one wound.
Congrats on the airbrush - have fun with it!
Oh, if there's a goodly number of Daemons in your area Null + SIA is amazing.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: I don't think I've been rude, just stating the rules? I also hope they get SIA.
I mainly read this thread on my short breaks at work, and in that state, and with tone being more difficult to suss out online, I may have seen into things that werent there, so I apologize, but, next time, dont assume im trying to powergame when im trying to model fluffily but afraid to break wysiwyg in a brand new edition, and I wont assume your lack of "nicitities" is deliberate un-niceness
All I said 'should be' not rule breaking.
In Facebook comments warhammer40k reply that if it don't written then there are nothing to say. They are contact game designers to update for clean up for Deathwatch Reivers.
And remember Special Issues Ammunition is not weapon itself, it is a round ammunition that can fit in every Bolt weapons.
Quote from Wikipedia-
Special Issue Ammunition - The Deathwatch uses shot selectors and bolt round harnesses that hold specialist bolt rounds. Dragonfire bolts are hollow shells filled with super-heated gas that explode to saturate foes in cover, while Kraken bolts utilise an adamantine core and improved propellant to penetrate the thickest hide. Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids, while vengeance rounds employ unstable flux core technology that makes them hazardous to use, but incredibly effective against armoured targets.
That, is why I said it should be able to take Special Issues Ammunition unless primaris was not that smart than we thought...
A quick question about deathwatch taking stormshields, seems a good place to ask.
Do we have to use the DW points cost of 15 for all our units stormshields or can we use the standard 5/15 in the SM list? It just seems a little weird, have I missed something?
On another note, how are people finding their Blackstars?
Mine should be arriving soon and I'm looking forward to trying it out. Are you using it as a fast assault transport of a gunboat, or both :-)
Hate to say it but if they have their own special price bracket we're coughing up that price.
Mine's been brilliant, even when I missed the Halo-Launcher boost for five points I nabbed top spot in a tournament.
Re-arranging my list to be ready for the vehicle spam that I expect to happen in response to my victory, I will have two Blackstars.
There's another dude on this thread who has also seen success with the Blackstars.
Great news really looking forward to getting mine, finally a reason to use such an awesome model.
Loadout wise what are people using? I'm thinking Assault cannon, Hurri bolter and stormstrikes so it can engage all types of units.
You can likely tell than I'm throwing together my first list of the new edition, am I reading it right that I can trade my bolter in for a bolter and a bolt pistol? or shotgun/other special and a boltpistol? Very useful if true :-)
WisdomLS wrote: Great news really looking forward to getting mine, finally a reason to use such an awesome model.
Loadout wise what are people using? I'm thinking Assault cannon, Hurri bolter and stormstrikes so it can engage all types of units.
You can likely tell than I'm throwing together my first list of the new edition, am I reading it right that I can trade my bolter in for a bolter and a bolt pistol? or shotgun/other special and a boltpistol? Very useful if true :-)
For loadouts I'm looking at default Blackstar loadouts to keep things flexible. The twin assault cannons are reasonably flexible, and the missile launchers are solid anti-vehicle/monster.
My army strat is going to involve focusing all my hitting power on a weak flank, and trying to roll it before my opponent can surround me. Then just kill him one unit at a time.
That means one full kill-team kitted out primarily for shooting, and as many min-size kill-teams kitted out for CC clean-up as I can field in my transports. Any extra space will be filled by a vanguard vet squad with jump packs deployed into low orbit.
Most of my anti-vehicle/monster power will be in my CC teams, but will be supplemented by the blackstars.
I'll be using one watch master for rerolls and general beat-stick access, and each blackstar above the first will be transporting an inquisitor for anti-psycher work and psychic support. Their fear ability prevents overwatch, which is very powerful for a wound-limited army like Deathwatch. Especially one that's assault-focused. The watch master's reroll aura will turn the blackstars into absolute meat grinders, and make the shooting team's frag-cannons almost un-fair. However, considering the plan is to have ~35 models in a 2k list, I'll need it to not get tabled.
I've also been considering adding most anti-vehicle/monster ability to the shooting team via gravity guns. But I'll need to see how well the CC teams deal with it first.
On another note, how are people finding their Blackstars?
Mine should be arriving soon and I'm looking forward to trying it out. Are you using it as a fast assault transport of a gunboat, or both :-)
I have two and I don't have a lot of experience with them since I just got them, but they have been amazing. Our local group initially were going to ban the use of two in 50 power level games.
Loadout =
One is set to Max number of dice which has been the Assault Cannon, Hurricane and Rockets.
The other is for punch = Lascannon, Hurrican, Missiles
I have only used the Auspex, but if I know a lot of Fly stuff is across the board the extra defense would be better.
When you guys use Blackstars, do you move them much? I'm trying to use mine as transports (and thus they have to move around) and finding that I can't hit anything.
I've got twin Assault Cannons and 2 Blackstar rocket launchers (might add the hurricane bolter if I can be bothered to go back and build & paint it) and the fact that they're Heavy just kills their accuracy for me. Can't say I've ever made an appreciable dent in a unit with it :(
I used mine for vehicle busting and loaded for las and rockets, that's probably the way I'll load the second one as well. I tend to stay mobile with it unless I have both a range and or cover advantage to drop into hover mode.
I just used them for taking hull points off vehicles with high RoF weapons to keep their attention away from my lads on the ground, when the boys finished off the organics everything turned on the vehicles.
Rihgu wrote: When you guys use Blackstars, do you move them much? I'm trying to use mine as transports (and thus they have to move around) and finding that I can't hit anything.
I've got twin Assault Cannons and 2 Blackstar rocket launchers (might add the hurricane bolter if I can be bothered to go back and build & paint it) and the fact that they're Heavy just kills their accuracy for me. Can't say I've ever made an appreciable dent in a unit with it :(
I too use them as Transports, but I usually play Tau so hitting on 4s and re-rolling 1s is fine by me.... :-)
I tend to load up the Lascannon Blackstar with my long range Deathwatch squad and move up once....then it turns into a flying gun platform that does well. The Assault Cannon moves and shoots better.
Auspex Array - obviously really nice against ground targets. I have stuck to this for now because in my group I haven't seen enough with the "FLY" keyword.
Infernum Halo-Launcher - Great against the "FLY" keyword, but zero against all else.
I haven't played them enough to learn any tricks against my opponents.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Deathwatch Termies at least get 3 special weapons, for as much as that's worth. I agree Bikers are probably the better buy.
There's nothing wrong with Terminators but check these stats -
Assault Cannon 24' Heavy6 S6 AP-1 D1 for 21 points.
HFlamer 8' HeavyD6 S5 AP-1 D1 100% accuracy for 17 points.
Cyclone ML for 50 points + Stormbolter
- Frag 36' Heavy2D3 S4 AP0 D1
- Krak 36' Heavy2 S8 AP-2 D D6 - SBolter 24' rapidfire2 S4 AP0 D1
If Storm Bolters had Special Ammo I'd be all over Termies with their Deep Strike ability.
The Biker's two Boltguns are "free" and versatile.
Bonus for shooting into cover.
2+ poison against non-vehicles.
Range and small ap boost.
Range drop for bigger ap boost.
Bikers pay for their twin bolters, only 2 pts, but they're not free.
Bikers, termies and the corvus are all standout units. Kill Teams can be good if you use them in corvus and don't overspend on them. Vanguard Vets are way too overpriced, you pay 3 more pts than standard marines and get... special issue ammo on bolt pistols and access to HTH. Not even remotely worth it.
If you swap powerfists for power weapons on Terminators you can save a lot of pts per model, which will help with the heavy investment in 3 heavies. For 5 with power weapons and 3 assault cannons you're actually paying less than for 5 guys with 4 powerfists.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Deathwatch Termies at least get 3 special weapons, for as much as that's worth. I agree Bikers are probably the better buy.
There's nothing wrong with Terminators but check these stats -
Assault Cannon 24' Heavy6 S6 AP-1 D1 for 21 points.
HFlamer 8' HeavyD6 S5 AP-1 D1 100% accuracy for 17 points.
Cyclone ML for 50 points + Stormbolter
- Frag 36' Heavy2D3 S4 AP0 D1
- Krak 36' Heavy2 S8 AP-2 D D6 - SBolter 24' rapidfire2 S4 AP0 D1
If Storm Bolters had Special Ammo I'd be all over Termies with their Deep Strike ability.
The Biker's two Boltguns are "free" and versatile.
Bonus for shooting into cover.
2+ poison against non-vehicles.
Range and small ap boost.
Range drop for bigger ap boost.
Bikers pay for their twin bolters, only 2 pts, but they're not free.
Bikers, termies and the corvus are all standout units. Kill Teams can be good if you use them in corvus and don't overspend on them. Vanguard Vets are way too overpriced, you pay 3 more pts than standard marines and get... special issue ammo on bolt pistols and access to HTH. Not even remotely worth it.
If you swap powerfists for power weapons on Terminators you can save a lot of pts per model, which will help with the heavy investment in 3 heavies. For 5 with power weapons and 3 assault cannons you're actually paying less than for 5 guys with 4 powerfists.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Deathwatch Termies at least get 3 special weapons, for as much as that's worth. I agree Bikers are probably the better buy.
There's nothing wrong with Terminators but check these stats -
Assault Cannon 24' Heavy6 S6 AP-1 D1 for 21 points.
HFlamer 8' HeavyD6 S5 AP-1 D1 100% accuracy for 17 points.
Cyclone ML for 50 points + Stormbolter
- Frag 36' Heavy2D3 S4 AP0 D1
- Krak 36' Heavy2 S8 AP-2 D D6 - SBolter 24' rapidfire2 S4 AP0 D1
If Storm Bolters had Special Ammo I'd be all over Termies with their Deep Strike ability.
The Biker's two Boltguns are "free" and versatile.
Bonus for shooting into cover.
2+ poison against non-vehicles.
Range and small ap boost.
Range drop for bigger ap boost.
Bikers pay for their twin bolters, only 2 pts, but they're not free.
Bikers, termies and the corvus are all standout units. Kill Teams can be good if you use them in corvus and don't overspend on them. Vanguard Vets are way too overpriced, you pay 3 more pts than standard marines and get... special issue ammo on bolt pistols and access to HTH. Not even remotely worth it.
If you swap powerfists for power weapons on Terminators you can save a lot of pts per model, which will help with the heavy investment in 3 heavies. For 5 with power weapons and 3 assault cannons you're actually paying less than for 5 guys with 4 powerfists.
Ahh gak.
I'm a cheat.
Slimy bastard.
We all make mistakes, especially with the strange way they have things setup now. Don't feel too bad (You should feel awful).
OK so I've knocked up my first list (see below) using just models I had before, boy are these guys expensive! I was planning on having them as an auxillary force but it turns out I can make it to 2K without really trying. Now I understand I have very little numbers on the field (other than the conscript squad) but I can put out a fair bit of firepower. The terminators especially take up a huge number of points :-/
Looks like this:
Watchmaster - Guardian Spear = I think he's a little better that the special captain for the same points. He'll travel in the Land raider with the shooty squad to provide rerolls and more CC punch. Terminator Librarian - Force Axe = Has a good mix of power, will DS in where needed.
Killteam 1: 4 Veterans Stalker Pattern Boltgun, Bolt Pistol 1 Srg Stalker Pattern Boltgun, Bolt Pistol 1 Vanguard Boltpistol, Chainsword 1 Terminator TH, SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher = This team will ideally be camping an objective putting out their firepower.
Killteam 2: 3 Veterans 3 Shotgun, 1 Storm shield 1 Srg Xenos Blade, Stormshield 1 Blackshield 2 Lightning Claws Vanguard HTH Terminator Stormbolter, Power Axe Biker Powersword, teleport Homer = This team will ride in the ravens and attempt to get into some assaults.
Kill Team 3: 4 Veterans 2 Fragcannon, 2 Boltgun, 2 Boltpistol Srg Combi-melta, Boltpistol Terminator Heavy Flamer, Powerfist, Meltagun Vanguard Lightning Claw, Stormshield Vanguard Boltpistol, Power Axe = This team rides in the landraider and will look to take a midfield objective, can fight or shoot as needed.
Venerable Dreadnought Twin Lascannon, DCCW, Stormbolter = Long ranged fire support. Corvus Blackstar Twin Assault Cannon, Hurrican Bolter, 2 stormstrike Missile Launchers, Halo Launcher = Can do most things Landraider Crusader Twin Assault Cannon, 2 Hurrican Bolters, Multimelta = Along with the unit inside is the rock of the list
20 Conscripts Lasgun Commisar Bolt Pistol, Power Sword = These are some cheap filler, looking to take an objective and hopefully be ignored ;-)
I have a little wiggle room with some of their loadouts but not so much in terms of models as these are what I have, what do people think? Is it just too much expensive stuff?
Those look like some fun teams! I haven't decided who will be where yet, but Im attempting to build a deathwatch marine for every set of extra arms/weapons in the two 5man kill team boxes I had. So far there will be a 4 shotgun squad, a 4 combo-plasma squad, and then theres 2 frag cannons, 2 infernus HBs, one HTH for now but another will probably go on a vanguard, a Blackshield with a shield and sword, one with two swords, and one with 2 lightning claws, I converted the 3 bikes from Dark vengeance into a White Scars, Dark Angel, and a BA successor (one of the chalice pads) with 2x swords and an axe respectively (though the Scar's is modeled as a spear using a banner arm and a DW sword), the librarian from DV into a Silver Skull, my first Vangaurd has a hand flamer and chainsword, theres a slew of bolter and sword or bolter and bolt pistol guys, one sergeant has a combo plas, one a plas pistol, both with xenophase, and I plan to make a third without a xenophase, but with a combo melta, and I have a termy with an AC and sword as well I love customizing each squad member, really raiding my bits box for these guys
Rihgu wrote: When you guys use Blackstars, do you move them much? I'm trying to use mine as transports (and thus they have to move around) and finding that I can't hit anything.
I've got twin Assault Cannons and 2 Blackstar rocket launchers (might add the hurricane bolter if I can be bothered to go back and build & paint it) and the fact that they're Heavy just kills their accuracy for me. Can't say I've ever made an appreciable dent in a unit with it :(
I too use them as Transports, but I usually play Tau so hitting on 4s and re-rolling 1s is fine by me.... :-)
I tend to load up the Lascannon Blackstar with my long range Deathwatch squad and move up once....then it turns into a flying gun platform that does well. The Assault Cannon moves and shoots better.
Auspex Array - obviously really nice against ground targets. I have stuck to this for now because in my group I haven't seen enough with the "FLY" keyword.
Infernum Halo-Launcher - Great against the "FLY" keyword, but zero against all else.
I haven't played them enough to learn any tricks against my opponents.
Rerolling 1s? Are you keeping them near your HQs or am I missing something?
I think I've just got to do better about picking initial placement and my first move, so that I can go into "hovering turret mode" and not worry about the enemy just walking away from me (while also positioning the kill team inside in a good position)
Rerolling 1s? Are you keeping them near your HQs or am I missing something?
I think I've just got to do better about picking initial placement and my first move, so that I can go into "hovering turret mode" and not worry about the enemy just walking away from me (while also positioning the kill team inside in a good position)
Auspex Array on the Blackstar = Reroll 1's if the target does not have "Fly" keyword.
Well, you guys had me sold on a squad of the bikers but it appears they've been discontinued (sold out online with no email me button on GW). Would my best option be to buy regular bikers and a box of deathwatch terminators? I can check my local store again this weekend but I dont recall seeing them there.
To be honest, if you get a Deathwatch upgrade sprue it has 10 marine pads, 2 termy pads, 2 heads, a torso front, and a sword, as well as 3 insignias, that plus a regular bike box is all you need!
I think they are going to slowly get sold out or something? Maybe something at the factory happened to cause it to get discontinued? All I know is it's slowly spreading as more and more DW stuff goes away.
You can take two items, but only one can come from the lower list. So Boltgun and Chainsword is fine, but a Combi and a Special Weapon both come from the bottom list, so you can't have both of them.
Da-Rock wrote: I see in the latest Forgeworld FAQ that Deathwatch got access to a lot more.
I also read that Deathwatch has access to Primaris models, but does it mean all or just some Primaris units etc?
Link FWFAQ where it shows that?
FAQs Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
Bluthusten wrote: Do we (Desthwatch) get new rules with the SM-Release?
I am pretty sure DeathWatch will have it's own Codex and that it may or may not come before December. (I would guess it won't, but you never know).
I think we are pretty good with what we have as GW can just FAQ in access to new gear and units if they want.
Does anyone think they will make any drastic changes to DeathWatch when the codex comes? (I am currently building and painting mine to be used as both a standard chapter and Deathwatch. Only my two Blackstars will be hard to Proxy).
I am hoping something similar to the tactical choices we could make in 7th would be a part of the deathwatch ruleset. It doesnt have to be specific rerolls vs troop / elite etc, but I did like the ability to focus on a particular strategy within a battle.
Oh.. and I want a bonus when I kill Xenos... either defensive or offensive.. not bothered.
Why cant Deathwatch dreads have hurricane bolters each firing SIA... thats fun and balanced, right?
I just kit bashed a DW dread, and I wanted to ask y'all something. I loaded up his melee arm with vehicle sized chapter badges from many chapters. Would a DW venerable dread thats served so long his original chapter is kept to himself, instead bearing the markings of the chapters hes campaigned with (each is obviously like a big campaign badge) be fluffy, or do you think that's kinda far fetched?
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Why cant Deathwatch dreads have hurricane bolters each firing SIA... thats fun and balanced, right?
We pay extra for our Vets to have SIA, why wouldn't we cough up a bit extra for our Hurricane Bolters the way TWC cough up character tax for Storm Shields?
I just kit bashed a DW dread, and I wanted to ask y'all something. I loaded up his melee arm with vehicle sized chapter badges from many chapters. Would a DW venerable dread thats served so long his original chapter is kept to himself, instead bearing the markings of the chapters hes campaigned with (each is obviously like a big campaign badge) be fluffy, or do you think that's kinda far fetched?
Depends on the chapter he was originally from, some chapters are egotistical trophy hunters - some aren't.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Why cant Deathwatch dreads have hurricane bolters each firing SIA... thats fun and balanced, right?
We pay extra for our Vets to have SIA, why wouldn't we cough up a bit extra for our Hurricane Bolters the way TWC cough up character tax for Storm Shields?
I just kit bashed a DW dread, and I wanted to ask y'all something. I loaded up his melee arm with vehicle sized chapter badges from many chapters. Would a DW venerable dread thats served so long his original chapter is kept to himself, instead bearing the markings of the chapters hes campaigned with (each is obviously like a big campaign badge) be fluffy, or do you think that's kinda far fetched?
Depends on the chapter he was originally from, some chapters are egotistical trophy hunters - some aren't.
I was thinking less trophy hunted, but marks of service. Maybe he was a templar or howling griffon or someone obsessed with duty. Im basically picturing an ancient dread being "pestered" by the newest members of the Deathwatch, and hed just be like, "What I came from matters not, my brother, for only what the Deathwatch has made me survives" or something. IE a veteran whos learned so much fighting alongside so many chapters that it doesnt matter to him anymore, hes just Deathwatch
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote: Why cant Deathwatch dreads have hurricane bolters each firing SIA... thats fun and balanced, right?
We pay extra for our Vets to have SIA, why wouldn't we cough up a bit extra for our Hurricane Bolters the way TWC cough up character tax for Storm Shields?
I just kit bashed a DW dread, and I wanted to ask y'all something. I loaded up his melee arm with vehicle sized chapter badges from many chapters. Would a DW venerable dread thats served so long his original chapter is kept to himself, instead bearing the markings of the chapters hes campaigned with (each is obviously like a big campaign badge) be fluffy, or do you think that's kinda far fetched?
Depends on the chapter he was originally from, some chapters are egotistical trophy hunters - some aren't.
I was thinking less trophy hunted, but marks of service. Maybe he was a templar or howling griffon or someone obsessed with duty. Im basically picturing an ancient dread being "pestered" by the newest members of the Deathwatch, and hed just be like, "What I came from matters not, my brother, for only what the Deathwatch has made me survives" or something. IE a veteran whos learned so much fighting alongside so many chapters that it doesnt matter to him anymore, hes just Deathwatch
I don't know if Dreads actually have a machine spirit to offend by not having a Chapter acknowledgement or acknowledging multiple chapters, I asked the question a while back of Space Marines becoming Dreads in the Watch being obliged to stay with the Deathwatch when their service time is finished or getting the choice to go back to their chapter - there was no hard answer so as far as I'm concerned if you can make a good enough story to back it, it works fine.
Whoever was asking about swapping out their Boltgun a Boltgun and CCW, then switching out the new Boltgun for a Frag Cannon got their question nullified by the new FAQ, now you exchange all your weapons for the Frag Cannon.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Whoever was asking about swapping out their Boltgun a Boltgun and CCW, then switching out the new Boltgun for a Frag Cannon got their question nullified by the new FAQ, now you exchange all your weapons for the Frag Cannon.
Twas me, thank you for posting. I took your original advice and didn't give my other frag cannon a pistol, the one I was asking about had a pistol already modeled on.
Now the real question: pry it off, or explain to opponents they don't have pistols in game, only as an accessory so their belt isnt empty
Also new in the FAQ is the Blackstar Halo Launcher, changed so that instead of giving flyers targeting it -1 to hit it now lets you re-roll save rolls of 1. Better generally, worse situationally. What do people think?
With DW not being able to have Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Flamers, I've been looking at using Crusader Squads (Ministorum) and picking up Immolators. Well, one, anyway. 3x Crusaders, 2x Acolytes with Flamers and a Xenos Inquisitor for the fluff. Crusaders are Zealots and get to re-roll hits plus they get Acts of Faith for either extra move or an extra fight phase. Immolators are Ministorum Infantry transports, so Crusaders are in plus the Authority of the Inquisiton for the others to join the fun. Immolators also have a 12" range rather then 8" for the Space marine Razorback version with the same 2D6 auto hits etc. The acolytes get to re-roll 1's to wound with their auto hits as long as its not Chaos or Imperium. So some usefulness.
So all in all, for a fun fluff choice, I don't feel like its totally non competitive either.
Thought about tossing in a Priest for more attacks on the Crusaders, but I like the extra auto hits from the Acolytes burning things up.
Marius Xerxes wrote: With DW not being able to have Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Flamers, I've been looking at using Crusader Squads (Ministorum) and picking up Immolators.
If you do this, don't forget to roll your d6 and see if you get an act of faith each turn. Crusader squads from Adeptus Ministorum can use Acts of Faith, which can allow them to gain an extra movement or fighting phase-- quite useful.
I have two Terminators that I built with that loadout last year, and I know I used plastic glue so I won't be able to take the fists off and replace them with swords. The Terminators are pretty much the only models I didn't magnetize because I didn't plan on changing their loadouts
Thank you though. I'll see if I can find some cheapo Terminators that I can convert, I have plenty of the upgrade sprues.
Melissia wrote: If you do this, don't forget to roll your d6 and see if you get an act of faith each turn. Crusader squads from Adeptus Ministorum can use Acts of Faith, which can allow them to gain an extra movement or fighting phase-- quite useful.
So I tried running a more vanilla Space Marine style list (no mixed Kill Teams, just pure squads) and honestly it performed better for me than trying to do mixed Kill Teams.
Of course, I did get luckier dice rolls at some pretty key parts of the game so I'm not 100% if it was just the dice liking me tonight or if it really is a better list-writing style, but what do the other Deathwatch players think?
List was:
1 Watch Master
5 Man vets with frag cannons, shotguns, a chainsword and a combi-melta
5 Man vets with infernus heavy bolter, power sword + bolter, power maul + combi-melta, power axe+storm shield, stalker heavy bolter
5 man terminator squad with 3 TH/SS, a CML, A heavy flamer+PF w/ melta, and an assault cannon+chain fist
Twin Lascannon Razorback with HK missile and storm bolter
Corvus Blackstar with twin assault cannons, twin blackstar rocket launchers, and infernum halo launcher
5 man strike squad of Grey Knights with 5 pairs of falchions and 5 storm bolters
GK librarian with GoI and Purge Soul
vs Thousand Sons
Alpha strike with the Grey Knights + terminator squad deepstriking in saw both Exalted Sorcerers dead before my opponent had a turn, but my force couldn't withstand the counterattack and was withered down over the next 4 turns, with his Thousand Sons terminators being notably untouched during the entire match, and a unit of Tzaangors killing my Librarian while it tried to hammer a Hellforged Deredeo woefully unsuccessfully.
They jumped from Dark Imperium to Index: Imperium1 and got a bit of a discount in the vanilla codex.
Guess that doesn't matter much to non-codex armies.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They jumped from Dark Imperium to Index: Imperium1 and got a bit of a discount in the vanilla codex.
Guess that doesn't matter much to non-codex armies.
actually per GW you can use the codex Marine prices for shared stuff, so you can use the new primaris points in codex Space Marine for space wolf Primaris' at least until you get your own codex
For anyone interested I built an army calculator tool in Excel, it's lacking a few things and it may be a bit too short for bigger armies, but happy to share it with anyone.
I know it lacks Land Raider and Black Corvus costs bc I only play 1k and don't have those.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They jumped from Dark Imperium to Index: Imperium1 and got a bit of a discount in the vanilla codex.
Guess that doesn't matter much to non-codex armies.
actually per GW you can use the codex Marine prices for shared stuff, so you can use the new primaris points in codex Space Marine for space wolf Primaris' at least until you get your own codex
Guessing that doesn't apply.to things like cheaper power fists? :(
RogueApiary wrote: Guessing that doesn't apply.to things like cheaper power fists? :(
Hmm...the power fists are a shared Data sheet in the Index, unlike Storm shields that are explicitly more expensive for DW. Would like to hear others' thoughts.
RogueApiary wrote: Guessing that doesn't apply.to things like cheaper power fists? :(
Hmm...the power fists are a shared Data sheet in the Index, unlike Storm shields that are explicitly more expensive for DW. Would like to hear others' thoughts.
yeah sadly we don't get the 5 point storm shields because it's listed as the price for Deathwatch. Just about everything else unless it's an exclusive weapon to Deathwatch is shared.
RogueApiary wrote: Guessing that doesn't apply.to things like cheaper power fists? :(
Hmm...the power fists are a shared Data sheet in the Index, unlike Storm shields that are explicitly more expensive for DW. Would like to hear others' thoughts.
yeah sadly we don't get the 5 point storm shields because it's listed as the price for Deathwatch. Just about everything else unless it's an exclusive weapon to Deathwatch is shared.
I'm not happy about the Stormshields, but can live with it. However, DW benefits from the cheaper Power Fists though from the SM Codex since it's shared?
Yes the sm codex takes precedence over the index for all sm units and weapons. So you use the codex version for everything if there is a codex version. If there isn't, you use the index version.
So my understanding would be that you use the sm codex for any sm units taken by other armies.
I guess the follow up question is do you think the DW codex will be self contained? Really hoping I won't need to buy/reference two books. How was it set up in 7th?
RogueApiary wrote: Guessing that doesn't apply.to things like cheaper power fists? :(
Hmm...the power fists are a shared Data sheet in the Index, unlike Storm shields that are explicitly more expensive for DW. Would like to hear others' thoughts.
yeah sadly we don't get the 5 point storm shields because it's listed as the price for Deathwatch. Just about everything else unless it's an exclusive weapon to Deathwatch is shared.
Character tax.
Thunderwolf Cavalry wears it as well.
The best way of getting Storm Shields seems to be Space Wolves units - Wolf Guard and Wulfen in particular have easy access to them.
I hate to say it but I am really leaning towards a mixed force of Space Mutts and Deathwatch rather than continuing to struggle with Purist Armies.
Forgeworld in Deathwatch. It was FAQ'd that we could take them. The question is what do we take? Think of the firepower we could get while Blackstars rush up. It would be tough to decide what to shoot at. What tanks, dreadnoughts, or anything else should we take?
What do you guys think of mixed Scion/DW? Maintains the elite theme while giving access to a lot of anti-infantry power from the taurox prime and cheap plasma with ridiculous mobility. At 2k points you could fit a corvus, watchmaster, 3man bike squad, 2 killteams, and like 3x 4man plasma ccs and 4x 5 man plasma troops and 3 dakka primes. Probably can fit in an lc or ac razorback too if you drop a taurox prime or dont go ham on the killteams' guns.
Just read the plague marine entry for the new chaos codex. Plague Marines have more options now then any space marine unit in the game now, takes up the entire page with war gear. Death Guard players are in for a real treat when the codex comes out. Try not to freak out when you read the flail of corruption, and the fact you can take 2 in each squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heh whoops wrong thread.
RogueApiary wrote: What do you guys think of mixed Scion/DW? Maintains the elite theme while giving access to a lot of anti-infantry power from the taurox prime and cheap plasma with ridiculous mobility. At 2k points you could fit a corvus, watchmaster, 3man bike squad, 2 killteams, and like 3x 4man plasma ccs and 4x 5 man plasma troops and 3 dakka primes. Probably can fit in an lc or ac razorback too if you drop a taurox prime or dont go ham on the killteams' guns.
I think a detachment of Scions is a fairly efficient "go to" for Deathwatch.
Since DW have their Special Issue Ammo built into their point cost and therefore don't get a refund on it when upgrading to any special, heavy or combi weapons, I tend to just add the free chainsword and call it a day. After all, at 19 base per model, they still die like any other 1W 3+ Marine. No point in over spending on them. The Kill Team Veterans, Terminators and Bikes all combined do more then enough anti-fantry imo.
So when looking at the Scions and the Taurox Primes, I don't go for the dakka version but rather the Missile and Autocannon version. The longer range lets it engage targets farther out without having to move and taking the -1 to hit. Primes also aren't all that tough so moving within 24" to get all that dakka in range puts it well within range of getting knocked down a few wound levels and reducing is effectiveness fairly quickly. Since Primes don't have access to any character that lets them re-roll anything, you can't even compensate for it a little bit.
As for the Scions themselves, 5 man squads with 2x specials are inexpensive and straight forward in purpose. Add in the Tempestor Prime for the re-rolls and dropping in with over charged Plasma fills a nice gap in the DW efficiency line. Plus a Scion Command Squad for each Prime you may take and their 4 specials.
About the only thing I am doing is keeping everything in separate detachments. Looking at the trend being set by the new Codex's, there are going to be things missed out on if you mix all this together in a Battalion and up. So future proofing now and keeping them separate is probably a good idea.
Trying to get the right loadout on Terminators is a right pain, they get very expensive very quickly. I would love a dual cyclone unit just for the look...may have to reserve that for uncompetitive games.
On another note what are people doing about stalker boltgun being standard with the DW kit? Just using them as "counts as" standard Bolters? I just see no real use for a heavy 2 bolter.
Just get like 5 ~ 6 razorback with TL assault cannon with watch master and hose your enemies with dakka and win. I killed like 2 15 necron warrior squad turn 1 lol and killed like a squad of 10 immortals and some destroyers the next turn. If you do some dice hammer, with DW watch master being in the 6" bubble granting re-rolls, 5~6 razorback with TL assault cannon pumps out roughly 60~72 shots per turn and average of 5~10 misses (with rerolls), it will guarantee destroy a unit or two per turn.
Also came here to report Land Raider helios sync well with for shooty deathwatch list. The helios launcher wrecked opponents backfield campers.
Also get LEVIATHAN dreadnought, you need it, you WANT it. This beast is....beast. It will kill anything barring actual titans. Arming it with dual storm array cannons will wreck just about everything. like if you tell it to shoot at something, the whole group of whatever will get blown away; works like charm against hordes, vehicles, flyers (stormraven), teleporting troops...etc.
And have anyone tried dual bolt pistols veterans? So like everyone armed with dual pistols shooting then charging, then hopefully survive combat and shoot again.
fr3ddy wrote: Just get like 5 ~ 6 razorback with TL assault cannon with watch master and hose your enemies with dakka and win. I killed like 2 15 necron warrior squad turn 1 lol and killed like a squad of 10 immortals and some destroyers the next turn. If you do some dice hammer, with DW watch master being in the 6" bubble granting re-rolls, 5~6 razorback with TL assault cannon pumps out roughly 60~72 shots per turn and average of 5~10 misses (with rerolls), it will guarantee destroy a unit or two per turn.
Also came here to report Land Raider helios sync well with for shooty deathwatch list. The helios launcher wrecked opponents backfield campers.
Also get LEVIATHAN dreadnought, you need it, you WANT it. This beast is....beast. It will kill anything barring actual titans. Arming it with dual storm array cannons will wreck just about everything. like if you tell it to shoot at something, the whole group of whatever will get blown away; works like charm against hordes, vehicles, flyers (stormraven), teleporting troops...etc.
And have anyone tried dual bolt pistols veterans? So like everyone armed with dual pistols shooting then charging, then hopefully survive combat and shoot again.
That sounds amazing, but I'm a bit hesitant to shell out for 4-5 additional razorbacks + 6 FW turrets for a setup that could be nerfed into irrelevance at the drop of a hat. I'm currently planning on getting two AC razorbacks.
Been drooling over that Leviathan for a minute though, just waiting on friends to finally decide on what they want so we can pool an FW order for the free shipping. What do you think of the Chaplain Dread? The model looks amazing and the rules didn't seem too bad.
I had thought about doing that same thing with the dual pistols, waiting on a bitz order to arrive so I can finish fully magnetizing a Vanguard squad.
The main problem I think would be anything that can be effectively hurt by a dual BP setup is not going to be worth exposing 100+ points of Vanguard Vets to the inevitable fallback + retaliation on their next turn.
For a 5 man squad, I'm getting 1.8 with Hellfire and an additional 1.2 from 11 CC attacks. So if they hit a 5 man devastator squad it could be worth it.
3.6 with Hellfire and 3.1 from the close combat against GEQ, so it should reliably assassinate a Commissar or officer with the right/lucky positioning. There might be some T5+ stuff where the Hellfire rounds can really shine at putting some wounds in though. Maybe some backline Tyranid/Necron units?
Agree with the hesitancy on loading up on assault cannon Razorback turrets, by the time the Codex proper comes out GW may well have removed it as an option.
Is anything Primaris worth taking in a Deathwatch army? I can maybe see a place for Helblasters or Aggressors but that is about it.
Well, Space Mahreen codex is out, TL assault cannon is still OP, and Deathwatch are basically suped up Sphess Mahreen with cool gear.
Unless GW decide deathwatch should not have rhinos and razorback, then yeah....I mean, flamer razorback and las/plas razorback is not avail to dethwotch, but....i have not seen anyone take em ever.
if dethwotch can take some primaris, i would take the aggressor for flame spam for rear protection or that tank thing, which has more dakka than a land raider.
I might look into tarantula turrets for sheer shot output and obj sec. Its 45 points for a TL assault cannon turret, take 10 and you spew out 120 shots per turn along. And best part is these turrets are individual models after deployment. Par these turrets up with watch master for some hair pulling and eye ball gauging action from opponent watching his army blown up @ record speed.
fr3ddy wrote: Well, Space Mahreen codex is out, TL assault cannon is still OP, and Deathwatch are basically suped up Sphess Mahreen with cool gear.
Unless GW decide deathwatch should not have rhinos and razorback, then yeah....I mean, flamer razorback and las/plas razorback is not avail to dethwotch, but....i have not seen anyone take em ever.
if dethwotch can take some primaris, i would take the aggressor for flame spam for rear protection or that tank thing, which has more dakka than a land raider.
I might look into tarantula turrets for sheer shot output and obj sec. Its 45 points for a TL assault cannon turret, take 10 and you spew out 120 shots per turn along. And best part is these turrets are individual models after deployment. Par these turrets up with watch master for some hair pulling and eye ball gauging action from opponent watching his army blown up @ record speed.
Yeah, I don't think they'd make DW flat out unable to take them, but they could raise the AC or Razorback points cost or limit the number you can take some other way and I'd then be stuck with six transports with expensive Forgeworld guns. It'd be like being one of those guys with 6 Stormravens. Yeah, you can still use 3-4, but you're still stuck with two useless expensive models. If I stay at 2 or 3, it's not as big of a blow if a nerf comes. It's why I haven't gone nuts with Scions/Tauroxes/Conscripts/Basilisks/Manticores (not like I can find those last two for sale anywhere to ever worry about having too many)
Do they even make AC Tarantulas any more? I didn't see them last I was on the FW site.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Is anything Primaris worth taking in a Deathwatch army? I can maybe see a place for Helblasters or Aggressors but that is about it.
Not having access to Special Issue Ammo I don't feel there is anything worth it from Primaris at this time, no.
5x Hellblasters with basic kit run 165 whereas Scions will get you 2x 5 man squads w/ 2x Plasma Guns and a Plasma Pistol each plus a Tempestor granting both units re-roll's on 1's. With the added benefit that they will drop in where you want them within rapid fire range guaranteed. You get all that for 172. Plus, for what its worth, the non plasma Scions weapons are -2 save. You also get 11 bodies counted for objective control compared to 5, albeit obviously less survivable bodies. So both squads are shooting off the same amount of Str 8 plasma (HB's at -4 sv tho) but the Scions are going to get the effortless re-rolls. Plus the Scions are throwing an additional 8 shots with a still respectable -2 save.
There is also the possibility that, when looking at the three new Codex's, GW may be trying to validate still taking Troops choices, which the Scions are, by granting Objective Secured to them as long as they are a Scion only detachment. Which in my above example, that is a standalone Patrol Detachment already and would qualify.
All told, I'd much rather spend the extra 7 for all the utility and *possible* future proofing then picking up Hellblasters as an addition to a DW army.
As for Aggressors, their anti-infantry focus is pretty well covered by everything else Deathwatch without having to spend Terminator level costs per model for the same wounds but worse save. With the added benefit that Terminators get to be held in reserve. That lets you drop them where you need them and if you have a Teleport Homer, pull them out for any number of reasons that may pop up. Not to mention the added Deployment manipulation that comes with putting a unit in reserve and making your opponent have to potentially place another unit on the table that you can counter deploy to.
Since Deathwatch are Space Marines the real question is can we use the stratagems from the codex. We can use the psychic powers and the warlord traits are for any Adeptus Arbites unit. What do ya'll think? The 6 to wound roll with increases the ap of any gun by another -1 for a support like the Watch Master is perfect. Now if we can use the stratagems we'd be set.
Well, I think I've found a marginal use for Hellblasters. Using them as the Heavy Support tax to unlock a Relic Leviathan. Though I think a rapier would also work for this and probably do it cheaper.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: We only get the psychic powers, the book limits everything else to chapters found within Codex Space Marines.
The book defines Space Marines as being the Codex compliant chapters I believe. Wouldn't DW be limited to using the Index still? I know Warhammer Community said you could use Codex datasheet for now, but I heard nothing on psychic powers.
So im thinking of dabbling into abt 500 points of deathwatch in my inquisition/guard army. What do yall think of these killteams
Killteam 1:
1x veteran with heavy bolter
4x veteran with stalker pattern boltgun
1x terminator with assault cannon+power fist (model restriction, id get a sword if i could)
Killteam 2:
1x veteran with TH+plasma pistol+combat shield (sarge)
1x veteran with power fist+bolt pistol
1x veteran with meltagun
2x veteran with boltgun
1x terminator with powerfist+storm bolter
1x biker with power axe
Im thinking I footslog the 2nd killteam forward along with my guard infantry and inquisitor, while kt 1 hides in ruins near an objective laying down dakka
Yeah, I don't think they'd make DW flat out unable to take them, but they could raise the AC or Razorback points cost or limit the number you can take some other way and I'd then be stuck with six transports with expensive Forgeworld guns. It'd be like being one of those guys with 6 Stormravens. Yeah, you can still use 3-4, but you're still stuck with two useless expensive models. If I stay at 2 or 3, it's not as big of a blow if a nerf comes. It's why I haven't gone nuts with Scions/Tauroxes/Conscripts/Basilisks/Manticores (not like I can find those last two for sale anywhere to ever worry about having too many)
Do they even make AC Tarantulas any more? I didn't see them last I was on the FW site.
Its not likely GW gonna limit the numbers of razorback, I mean they are dedicated transport and in the core rule book it did state that a dedicated transport for each battlefield role. I mean even if they do for whatever reason, i will just use me corvus with TLAC to fly around.
Also AC tarantulas are not avail on FW, get it from kromlech their resin minis are good to go.
Also came here to report I tabled a harlequin player last night. He ran like...7 squads of clowns with fusion guns/harlequin's kiss/and some other weird stuff. Along with that psychic flyer and the transport thing. In addition like 2 shadow seer, farseer, and 2 other magick sphess elves character. Last but not least he also brought that yncarne god character. I have to say these pesky clowns are...extremely annoying, especially with power from death or soulburst, he kept using it to smite/charge/move closer to my line of AC razorback line. But thanks to watchmaster and re-rolls, I wiped him clean, his fatal mistake was trying charge yncarne into leviathan dread, 2d6 heavy flamer and 20 storm cannon arrary with re-rolls wrecked a squad of clowns and the god on overwatch.
the same list the harlequin player ran bested this year's adepticon 3rd place guy here many times. I think i was the first one to crush his harlequin army in our super competitive meta. Even the max khorne zerker list lost against his list.
For those of you going to NOVA, watch out for this guy and his harlequin, he have enough eldar trickery that will pop land raider turn 1.
Yeah, I don't think they'd make DW flat out unable to take them, but they could raise the AC or Razorback points cost or limit the number you can take some other way and I'd then be stuck with six transports with expensive Forgeworld guns. It'd be like being one of those guys with 6 Stormravens. Yeah, you can still use 3-4, but you're still stuck with two useless expensive models. If I stay at 2 or 3, it's not as big of a blow if a nerf comes. It's why I haven't gone nuts with Scions/Tauroxes/Conscripts/Basilisks/Manticores (not like I can find those last two for sale anywhere to ever worry about having too many)
Do they even make AC Tarantulas any more? I didn't see them last I was on the FW site.
Its not likely GW gonna limit the numbers of razorback, I mean they are dedicated transport and in the core rule book it did state that a dedicated transport for each battlefield role. I mean even if they do for whatever reason, i will just use me corvus with TLAC to fly around.
Also AC tarantulas are not avail on FW, get it from kromlech their resin minis are good to go.
Also came here to report I tabled a harlequin player last night. He ran like...7 squads of clowns with fusion guns/harlequin's kiss/and some other weird stuff. Along with that psychic flyer and the transport thing. In addition like 2 shadow seer, farseer, and 2 other magick sphess elves character. Last but not least he also brought that yncarne god character. I have to say these pesky clowns are...extremely annoying, especially with power from death or soulburst, he kept using it to smite/charge/move closer to my line of AC razorback line. But thanks to watchmaster and re-rolls, I wiped him clean, his fatal mistake was trying charge yncarne into leviathan dread, 2d6 heavy flamer and 20 storm cannon arrary with re-rolls wrecked a squad of clowns and the god on overwatch.
the same list the harlequin player ran bested this year's adepticon 3rd place guy here many times. I think i was the first one to crush his harlequin army in our super competitive meta. Even the max khorne zerker list lost against his list.
For those of you going to NOVA, watch out for this guy and his harlequin, he have enough eldar trickery that will pop land raider turn 1.
Yeah, I don't think they'd make DW flat out unable to take them, but they could raise the AC or Razorback points cost or limit the number you can take some other way and I'd then be stuck with six transports with expensive Forgeworld guns. It'd be like being one of those guys with 6 Stormravens. Yeah, you can still use 3-4, but you're still stuck with two useless expensive models. If I stay at 2 or 3, it's not as big of a blow if a nerf comes. It's why I haven't gone nuts with Scions/Tauroxes/Conscripts/Basilisks/Manticores (not like I can find those last two for sale anywhere to ever worry about having too many)
Do they even make AC Tarantulas any more? I didn't see them last I was on the FW site.
Its not likely GW gonna limit the numbers of razorback, I mean they are dedicated transport and in the core rule book it did state that a dedicated transport for each battlefield role. I mean even if they do for whatever reason, i will just use me corvus with TLAC to fly around.
Also AC tarantulas are not avail on FW, get it from kromlech their resin minis are good to go.
Also came here to report I tabled a harlequin player last night. He ran like...7 squads of clowns with fusion guns/harlequin's kiss/and some other weird stuff. Along with that psychic flyer and the transport thing. In addition like 2 shadow seer, farseer, and 2 other magick sphess elves character. Last but not least he also brought that yncarne god character. I have to say these pesky clowns are...extremely annoying, especially with power from death or soulburst, he kept using it to smite/charge/move closer to my line of AC razorback line. But thanks to watchmaster and re-rolls, I wiped him clean, his fatal mistake was trying charge yncarne into leviathan dread, 2d6 heavy flamer and 20 storm cannon arrary with re-rolls wrecked a squad of clowns and the god on overwatch.
the same list the harlequin player ran bested this year's adepticon 3rd place guy here many times. I think i was the first one to crush his harlequin army in our super competitive meta. Even the max khorne zerker list lost against his list.
For those of you going to NOVA, watch out for this guy and his harlequin, he have enough eldar trickery that will pop land raider turn 1.
How many Leviathans are you running? Is the grav bombard worth taking or are the storm cannons that much better? What heavy supports are you using to take the relic leviathan?
Finally, how does 3rd party like kromlech work at something like ITC events or NOVA?
How many Leviathans are you running? Is the grav bombard worth taking or are the storm cannons that much better? What heavy supports are you using to take the relic leviathan?
Finally, how does 3rd party like kromlech work at something like ITC events or NOVA?
I am running one Leviathan, do double storm cannons; it wrecks everything, like literally, pair with watch master for hate and discontent. I took a helios land raider with it (with watch master too for even more hate and discontent)
I used all kromlech assault cannon turrets, its all legal in ITC and NOVA, the model has to be at least 70% GW stuff, but in all reality, I have seen people who used the regiment soldiers model from anvil industry to proxy as scions @ ITC events.
What list you running?
Double watch master, Four 5 men kill team, 5 AC razorback, 1 land raider helios, and 1 leviathan.
for the local NOVA practice, round 1 I tabled the guy top of turn 4, round 2 the guy surrendered after it continued to turn 6, and i will report back next week for round 3 and 4.
@ round 2 the chaos guy tried the warp time chaos termie combi melta my leviathan and failed miserably caz the 4+ invul for the lulz
So far this list is just GG and a lot of hate and discontent ftw.
I checked the leviathan rules and all of it's weapon system are crazily op. You pay 50 points for something that does 2x time the damage of a double lascan. And the body is a bargain for 175.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: We only get the psychic powers, the book limits everything else to chapters found within Codex Space Marines.
The book defines Space Marines as being the Codex compliant chapters I believe. Wouldn't DW be limited to using the Index still? I know Warhammer Community said you could use Codex datasheet for now, but I heard nothing on psychic powers.
There are things in the codex available to us, mostly points and statline updates, just like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels though we're stuck with the index for actual units.
Hey guys, I'm thinking about adding a small Deathwatch force to my AdMech for 2000+ points and I would have liked your input on this as I don't really know how they play.
The concept I had in mind was adding a Vanguard Detachment to my main force. I'll already have two teams of 5 bolter + 5 sword Sisters of Silence in Rhinos, and so as I always loved Terminators I thought about adding 5 or 10 Terminators with either a Librarian Terminator or a Watch Captain Terminator, so that they can all deep-strike together. So I was wondering if they were any good for ranged support or better off going full CC ? I like the concept of going full Assault Cannon with maybe one or two Cyclone missile launchers, but I'm wondering if it's worth it or not. The range doesn't look so great on the Assault Cannon but otherwise they look solid. If I deep-strike them they'll be in range anyway. If I go full CC, what's the best loadout ?
Other idea was to simply use regular Veterans with a Watch Master for full rerolls to hit, equipped with Frag Cannons and Heavy Bolters. Thinking a bit about Vanguard Veterans for full CC too, they look great and mobile enough.
No, my load is one combi-plasma, one frag cannon and sergeant with power sword.
Hey guys, I'm thinking about adding a small Deathwatch force to my AdMech for 2000+ points and I would have liked your input on this as I don't really know how they play.
The concept I had in mind was adding a Vanguard Detachment to my main force. I'll already have two teams of 5 bolter + 5 sword Sisters of Silence in Rhinos, and so as I always loved Terminators I thought about adding 5 or 10 Terminators with either a Librarian Terminator or a Watch Captain Terminator, so that they can all deep-strike together. So I was wondering if they were any good for ranged support or better off going full CC ? I like the concept of going full Assault Cannon with maybe one or two Cyclone missile launchers, but I'm wondering if it's worth it or not. The range doesn't look so great on the Assault Cannon but otherwise they look solid. If I deep-strike them they'll be in range anyway. If I go full CC, what's the best loadout ?
Other idea was to simply use regular Veterans with a Watch Master for full rerolls to hit, equipped with Frag Cannons and Heavy Bolters. Thinking a bit about Vanguard Veterans for full CC too, they look great and mobile enough.
Your thoughts on this ? Thanks in advance !
They play like space marines with less bodies and a bit more punch per marine.
Termies are too expensive, deathwatch termies are even more expensive, however they have a lot more versatility than regular SM termies.
If you are gonna run deathwatch with Admech, which I do as well (and experimented), I run deathwatch as primary with AC razorback spam/rush, along with cheap 5 men vanguard with plasma on foot as support along with dragoons for poking things. If running deathwatch as support, you should get a corvus/razorback/land raider for support and transport for mahreens. Admech lacks mobility and transport, them death plobbing bots is strong, but not against all the dakka in this edition.
Thanks for the input ! I think I'll run a 5 men squad of Veterans with a Watch Master, and use them as mid-close ranged unit, with one or two frag cannons and the rest I'll see.
Am I correct in assuming the Infernus heavy bolter looks overcosted and relatively useless ? Why have a heavy flamer on your heavy bolter ?
Thoughts on the Deathwatch shotgun ? It looked interesting at first (and cheap + good-looking) but I believe a regular bolter with the special ammunition might do the job as well as it is. I think I'll end up using at least one for the sake of it.
So in a 5 men squad I'm going towards having one with Frag-cannon, one with Shotgun, one stock, and a Sergeant and Black Shields with CC weapons and pistols. All in a Razorback with twin Lascannon with the Watch Master. That way as they all have assault weapons they can Advance and still shoot with the rerolls from the HQ if need be, or simply close the gap between their target without any malus before engaging in CC.
I feel more inclined to having this setup because I feel like it's a waste to have two models with 3A each and three others with 2A each and not go in CC with them. Even considering replacing the stock one with a bolt pistol and a chainsword or other CC weapon maybe. He'll still have the special ammo and he'll have the range to hit thanks to the Razorback.
Thoughts on the Venerable Dreadnought ? I may end up buying the Start Collecting box so I might as well add him to my army. I'd equip the twin Lascannon, with the CCW + heavy flamer. That way I have even more Lascannons.
Came to report more tabling occurred for NOVA prep.
I played against an eldar player for local NOVA prep, wiped his army except for one autarch. End score is 13 against 5. I got 3 obj, all secondary, and max tertiary,
I lost 2 kill teams, razorback and sadly my leviathan.
Deathwatch is very viable for tourney, especially with SIA the ability to deal with anything. Also AC razorback couple with watchmaster is OP.
fr3ddy wrote: Came to report more tabling occurred for NOVA prep.
I played against an eldar player for local NOVA prep, wiped his army except for one autarch. End score is 13 against 5. I got 3 obj, all secondary, and max tertiary,
I lost 2 kill teams, razorback and sadly my leviathan.
Deathwatch is very viable for tourney, especially with SIA the ability to deal with anything. Also AC razorback couple with watchmaster is OP.
Are you kitting out your killteams much or just running them with straight bolters? Whats your opinion of stalker boltguns, are they too expensive for what they offer?
Also, how crucial is the Deimos LR in your list? I was thinking of just taking a crusader or regular lr since thats what I have. Still slowly adding razorbacks to my collection.
So I've finally settled for a loadout for the auxiliary Deathwatch force that will accompany my AdMech in their insatiable quest for knowledge ! Here goes:
- 1 Watch Master;
- 5 Deathwatch Veterans, with 1x Frag-Cannon, 1x Deathwatch Shotgun, 1x sergeant with bolt pistol & Xenophase blade, 1x Black Shield with Storm Shield & Power Maul;
- 5 Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans, with 4x Power Swords + Bolt pistol veterans, and the sergeant with Power Lance & Storm Shield;
- 1x Razorback with twin-lascannon;
- 1x Venerable Dreadnought with twin-lascannon, CC weapon & Heavy flamer.
The Veterans and the Watch Master travel with the Razorback, while the Vanguard either deep strike or jump from cover to cover to their target, depending on the battlefield. The Razorback disembarks its passengers, they unleash all their firepower onto their targets, and if there's still some alive, finish them off with a charge if it's reasonable.
I kept the Vanguard reasonably cheap with power weapons, it's easy to be tempted to buy a heavy thunder hammer but they're far too flimsy to carry so much 30 pts weapons out in the open. Any thoughts on this loadout guys ?
Are you kitting out your killteams much or just running them with straight bolters? Whats your opinion of stalker boltguns, are they too expensive for what they offer?
Also, how crucial is the Deimos LR in your list? I was thinking of just taking a crusader or regular lr since thats what I have. Still slowly adding razorbacks to my collection.
Combi-plas, frag cannon (always frag cannon), and power sword on sergeant. Stalker bolter? It has its use if you want to stay static. Depending on your play style.
Frag cannon will ruin your opponent's day. Like how i killed en entire blob of jetbikes with 2 frag cannons.
Helios land raider offers the ability to shoot stuff out of line of sight with ability to hurt most vehicles and all infantry.
Are you kitting out your killteams much or just running them with straight bolters? Whats your opinion of stalker boltguns, are they too expensive for what they offer?
Also, how crucial is the Deimos LR in your list? I was thinking of just taking a crusader or regular lr since thats what I have. Still slowly adding razorbacks to my collection.
Combi-plas, frag cannon (always frag cannon), and power sword on sergeant. Stalker bolter? It has its use if you want to stay static. Depending on your play style.
Frag cannon will ruin your opponent's day. Like how i killed en entire blob of jetbikes with 2 frag cannons.
Helios land raider offers the ability to shoot stuff out of line of sight with ability to hurt most vehicles and all infantry.
Thanks for answering all of my questions. How did it go at NOVA?
I picked up a small force of Deathwatch last edition (mostly the boxed games) and curious about what it would take to bump it up to a real game. Any value in the Jump packs or Bikes or the Dreadnaught? In terms of Kill Teams you're saying a 244 point setup with:
LunarSol wrote: I picked up a small force of Deathwatch last edition (mostly the boxed games) and curious about what it would take to bump it up to a real game. Any value in the Jump packs or Bikes or the Dreadnaught? In terms of Kill Teams you're saying a 244 point setup with:
Is there anything worth running without diving into the Forge World stuff?
Corvus Blackstar for sure. Get a couple more Razorbacks, Dreadnought is a reliable beast and will soak up plenty of shots. In the Corvus you want to have a mixed kill team and in the Razorbacks boltgun and chainswords for 95 points cant complain for that nasty unit of 5.
Cool. Thanks for the advice. I think I might try the Dreadnought, Blackstar, a pair of Razorbacks and 3 kill teams with Watch Master and Artemis to start and build from there.
What are people's thoughts on Vanguard this edition? Are any of the pistols worth paying extra for or does the SI Ammo get the job done?
Vanguard is alright. Bolt pistol will be alright.
Casual games vanguard does alright and decent. Put them in a corvus and drop them behind enemy turf and charge out with power swords to slice through those devastators, havocs, lootas, eldar thingys, and anything with big gun looking funny at your super special mahreens.
Cool. Definitely more of a "well, I've got the models so I might as well try them" question than anything. Probably throw a Heavy Thunder Hammer on one for the funzies. Any loadouts worth adding to a full kill team dropped out of the corvus to let them fall back? I feel like they might be more effective as a splash than as a full unit on their own.
Hey so I played a 2500 pts game today with my AdMech and included 5x Vanguard Veterans with 4xTH&SS and 1x HTH, with the support of a Watch Captain with combi-melta and TH and it was quite fun using jet pack units. Well the Vet squad died miserably against Terminator fire and one round of melee, but hilariously the Watch Captain went berserk after that (with 2W left) and disengaged, melted a Terminator, then charged again and killed them all, and went on a rampage across the map, killing a team of 5 Devs and 4 Scouts after that, then the game finished when he tried to melee Azrael and some more DW. I'll definitely try that again.
So first of all I guess that squad was probably way too expensive (and my opponent had nothing above T6) and is still squishy under mass small-arms fire, but I got them for free so no regrets. How would you use such a unit ? The problem for me was that in deep-striking them they're too far away for a charge (flying units must still count vertical movement, right ? Unlike the grapnel Reivers ?), but deploying them regularly makes them a target turn one. So do I deep-strike them but far enough for me to come closer afterwards, or do I deploy them normally and distract my opponent with something else ?
Also, I'm thinking about including more DW in my army (waiting for an eventual codex), would a squad of Vanguards Veterans with chainswords + bolt pistol be nice ? They'll certainly be cheaper, and with the special ammo they can be nice anti-T4.
Aaranis wrote: Hey so I played a 2500 pts game today with my AdMech and included 5x Vanguard Veterans with 4xTH&SS and 1x HTH, with the support of a Watch Captain with combi-melta and TH and it was quite fun using jet pack units. Well the Vet squad died miserably against Terminator fire and one round of melee, but hilariously the Watch Captain went berserk after that (with 2W left) and disengaged, melted a Terminator, then charged again and killed them all, and went on a rampage across the map, killing a team of 5 Devs and 4 Scouts after that, then the game finished when he tried to melee Azrael and some more DW. I'll definitely try that again.
So first of all I guess that squad was probably way too expensive (and my opponent had nothing above T6) and is still squishy under mass small-arms fire, but I got them for free so no regrets. How would you use such a unit ? The problem for me was that in deep-striking them they're too far away for a charge (flying units must still count vertical movement, right ? Unlike the grapnel Reivers ?), but deploying them regularly makes them a target turn one. So do I deep-strike them but far enough for me to come closer afterwards, or do I deploy them normally and distract my opponent with something else ?
Also, I'm thinking about including more DW in my army (waiting for an eventual codex), would a squad of Vanguards Veterans with chainswords + bolt pistol be nice ? They'll certainly be cheaper, and with the special ammo they can be nice anti-T4.
I don't think bc/ccw is the best use of vanguards. There are better and cheaper ways to clear chaff.
I'm thinking of doing a double plasma pistol squad or bp/pp. It would at least look cool as hell even if it doesn't end up working out.
The Codex needs to do something about overall points and/or survivability to really make them viable. I've been having fun with frag cannon paired with Boltgun/stormshield KT's in a blackstar, bit wouldn't consider it competitive.
So, codex Deathwatch is among the 4 next codices, after Necrons and Drukhari, and somewhere among Harlequins and Imperial Knights. I'd wager it'll be after the Harlequins one. What are your hopes for this codex ?
I'd like Jump Pack/Bikers Watch Masters, to give better rerolls to the Vanguards (they're my favourite DW units), access to special issue ammunition for most Primaris units, if not all, and points reductions on certain things, on top of my head. Don't know the faction enough, but I'd like it if there was more than one list to use decently.
"The Deathwatch are being reinforced with some exciting new content including mixed units of Primaris Space Marines and specific Stratagems for dealing with the vile and varied xenos that have the temerity to try to live in mankind’s galaxy. "
Taking them literally, this means they are adding datasheets for Primaris Marines and Stratagems specific to different Xenos races. I'm not getting my hopes up but am open to a pleasant surprise.
Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !
Aaranis wrote: Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !
What they got now is only a "death to the Xeno" thing of getting an additional attacks on a roll of 6 with their pittiful 2A.... Had that neen applied to shooting, it will be much better....
Yeah it shouldn't be a stratagem, I think it would fit better as an army trait, even though a more generalist trait would be more welcome. Rerolls 1 to Wound would be nice wouldn't it ? We already have Masters for rerolls to Hit.
Just having common sense options available again will be nice. Right now a Watch Captain in Terminator Armour can't even take a Power Fist.
Also, it was cool when you could take very small units of 2-3 Terminators/Vanguard Vets. Anyone else want that again?
"Mixed units of Primaris"....
So we can mix Intercessors with inceptors and aggressor?
That would be interesting. I just want SIA for primaris, they should be good with it.
As long as basic non-primaris DW veterans are costed in such a way as to not be the glassiest cannon in the game I'll be happy. they could mess up a LOT of other stuff and I wouldn't mind if it meant my vets were sort of playable.
CapRichard wrote:"Mixed units of Primaris"....
So we can mix Intercessors with inceptors and aggressor?
That would be interesting. I just want SIA for primaris, they should be good with it.
Like, Primaris Kill Teams ? That would be interesting.
WindstormSCR wrote:As long as basic non-primaris DW veterans are costed in such a way as to not be the glassiest cannon in the game I'll be happy. they could mess up a LOT of other stuff and I wouldn't mind if it meant my vets were sort of playable.
Oh yes, I hope they either remake the Heavy Thunder Hammer's rules or at least give it a big points reduction. I think the overall cost of any Deathwatch stuff is too high.
I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.
Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?
techsoldaten wrote: I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.
Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?
techsoldaten wrote: I skimmed an article about Adepticon that included an interview with about the Deathwatch Codex. Lost the link before I could go back to read it, but it was talking about Primaris and flyers and new kill teams.
Anyone know the article I am talking about? Have a link?
Aaranis wrote: Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !
They don't pay for being anti daemons. They pay most of thier tax for being able to have native deep strike, as the pts increase over base is about in line with the genestealer cult pts increases.
Aaranis wrote: Hope they won't fall in the same trap GK did: paying more points than other armies, because of some boni against a specific faction. Granted, Xenos are more diverse than just Chaos Daemons. I'd be looking for just a detachment to accompany my Xeno-studying AdMech, so as far as they can do that decently I'm in. I wish that they can have a pure list too of course !
They don't pay for being anti daemons. They pay most of thier tax for being able to have native deep strike, as the pts increase over base is about in line with the genestealer cult pts increases.
They pay for deep strike, but also for being psykers.
Feels like, in general, the way GW assigns points overvalues defense / psychic powers / tricks and undervalues offense. With AP- weapons, it's too easy to kill multi-wound models. An army like GK really suffers for each model lost, and there's never enough points to afford the depth you need to stay on the table.
Which is what scares me a little about the Deathwatch Codex. What DW will have over GK is better offense, but kill teams are going to remain expensive. They will still die like normal marines, so I don't think there's going to be a huge difference in how they perform over GK.
I'm just starting a GK / DW army, coming into it with this knowledge. Loading up on Razorbacks / Storm Ravens / Corvus Blackstars / anything that's not infantry to compensate.
So, how do you find the previews so far ? I'm eager to see the point costs, but they're more and more tempting to add as a second battalion to my Stygies VIII army. Hope Inquisitors from Ordo Xenos can fit in their detachments with no penalties when the CA 2018 hits.
Aaranis wrote: So, how do you find the previews so far ? I'm eager to see the point costs, but they're more and more tempting to add as a second battalion to my Stygies VIII army. Hope Inquisitors from Ordo Xenos can fit in their detachments with no penalties when the CA 2018 hits.
I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.
This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.
I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.
CapRichard wrote: I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.
This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.
I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.
How will the Mission Tactics work with the Doctrines? For example if you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 and also get +1 to Wound rolls does that mean you never really roll a 1 and can't re-roll anything? Or would you re-roll the 1 then add the +1
CapRichard wrote: I think the most welcome additions are: SIA to intercessors/reivers, the +1 to wound stratagem.
This should basically make the Primaris Kill team the best "naked" squad, as they will have better baseline firepower than the normal marines, either by having more AP or more range or both depending on the ammo. This should leave the normal marines free to do be kitted out as super specialist without losing up the "baseline troop" in the process. I think the "all primaris" army could be run effectively with the DW rules, augmenting their ranged effectiveness by a lot. The usual frag cannon equipped KT with rerolling 1s to wound and with a +1 to wound is a magnificent threat to everything. Even just a strafing run with the +1 to wound from a Corvus should prove pretty useful. As a scalpel unit, it should be worth it.
I'm still doubting everything will be costed appropriately though, as GW seems to overcost Marines compared to other armies and they can't really differentiate Marine costs between codexes.
How will the Mission Tactics work with the Doctrines? For example if you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 and also get +1 to Wound rolls does that mean you never really roll a 1 and can't re-roll anything? Or would you re-roll the 1 then add the +1
I am looking forward to this vs my mates Praetor Jetbikes now
How does everyone feel about the suggested Primaris Teams?
Close Assault Specialists
6x Intercessors with bolt rifles
1x Inceptor with assault bolters
2x Aggressors with flamestorm gauntlets
1x Reivers with bolt carbine
This unit is designed to fight up close and personal, closing in right on enemy lines and unleashing punishing short-ranged firepower. The Aggressors act as a deterrent to any unit willing to charge you while providing some extra punch in close combat, while the Inceptor allows you to engage units in your turn before retreating and laying down fire at the next opportunity. Staying close will allow you to capitalise on the armour piercing power of vengeance rounds as well as the Reiver’s shock grenades.
Firebase
5x Intercessors with 4x stalker bolt rifles and 1x grenade launcher
4x Hellblasters with heavy plasma incinerators
1x Aggressor with auto boltstorm gauntlets and fragstorm grenade launcher
This unit is designed to sit back on an objective and provide long-ranged supporting fire. The Intercessors will be able to reliably stack up wounds with Hellfire rounds, as well as providing a handy ablative screen for the Hellblasters, while the Aggressor will let you move and shoot, meaning you won’t have to sacrifice mobility when taking more powerful Heavy weapons.
Assault Firebase
5x Intercessors with auto bolt rifles
3x Hellblasters with assault plasma incinerators
1x Aggressor with flamestorm gauntlets
1 x Inceptor with two plasma exterminators
This unit is a twist on the above, designed to operate at mid-range. Thanks to the Aggressor, you’ll be able to advance and fire your assault weapons without penalty, while the Inceptor means that getting charged won’t stop you from retreating and firing.
I think that the assault firebase can work well putting pressure on a flank, maybe with the boltstorm gauntlets instead of the flamer and another hellblaster instead of the inceptor, but the design is sound.
The firebase looks solid, i would not pick the aggressor with it, it's wasted points for a team that has to be at range. Also I wonder what will happen to the stalker bolter squad, usually used for this role...
Problem for both is the usual: durability and transport.
CapRichard wrote: I think that the assault firebase can work well putting pressure on a flank, maybe with the boltstorm gauntlets instead of the flamer and another hellblaster instead of the inceptor, but the design is sound.
The firebase looks solid, i would not pick the aggressor with it, it's wasted points for a team that has to be at range. Also I wonder what will happen to the stalker bolter squad, usually used for this role...
Problem for both is the usual: durability and transport.
Durability is much higher than normal marines, and transports aren't going to help you much if your role is backfield objective camping. The Aggressor is a kind of difficult choice. On one hand, he's an amazing counter charge unit and provides your gunline unit with mobility that it would not normally have, but on the other hand those random games where nobody is in range of his weapons all game would feel pretty lame.
There’s a lot of strong anti SM sentiment on this forum - mostly people that haven’t adapted yet - no matter how you slice it if DW is properly costed this will be a powerful addition to the Imperium.
How do everybody feel on the "anti Xeno" stratagem? I think the DW is bullying some relatively "weaker" Xeno factions, but against strong factions those "tally" Stratagem still not offering enough punch.
Specifically,
Orks are pretty screwd by the DW stratagem, penalty in charge inches for each overwatch casauties taken will really mess up the green tide if they are charging in PKT with Aggressor member.
Necron would likely took a beating for the -1 for RP rolls, but the experience of the Necron part of me just shout out that the Necron units will simply die in one round if they are likely to cause trouble to the opponent so the RP will more often not cone into play. It will be a bonus but Necron armies no longer live and die to the RP any more.
Tau might took a hard beating as the Stratagem simply shrug off all the marker light token for 1CP ! It might really lower the accuracy of the Tau firepower as naturally, only their Commander have high enough BS while everything else have mid level BS only.
Nidz. The stratagem gives a little bonus fighting the Great Devourers. But tbh, sniping Synapse Characters is not as great as it sounds. First, The real creatures that pose serious threat against Marine arimes is either not synapse creature like Exocrine, Hive Guard, Genestealer hordes. Or are those big enough it can already been freely targetted like Flyrant. The only bonus this 2CP stratagem granted is shoot at Nerothropes, or Malanthropes or the overcosted Broodlord. The last one ate seldom seem on the table top in competitive Nidz army, and the former two are tough nuts due to hard to hit and inv saves. Furthermore, now the Synapse range is 24" instead of 12", and the penalty of IB is just a -1 to hit instead of the Nidz eating themselves or forced to go to ground. Soooooo, who cares if getting a Synapse Creature killed???
The anti Eldar one is simply plain trash for its costs of 2CP. 1st, Eldar fly units usually have mid to long range firepower so no need to move into 12" range. 2nd, Eldar has massive trickery to make themselves hard to hit, coupled with the penalty -1 to hit of this stratagem, we are likely hitting on 5s after paying 2CPs.... WTH!!!!!
What do you guys think? Any hidden gems to be discovered?
I'm just worried we are turning into Primariswatch and my existing kill teams are going to be trimmed to hyper specific roles maybe only 1 or 2 squads in an army list now, not even sure I want to bother fitting my Corvus in either when I could just take more of the new kill teams
Neophyte2012 wrote: How do everybody feel on the "anti Xeno" stratagem? I think the DW is bullying some relatively "weaker" Xeno factions, but against strong factions those "tally" Stratagem still not offering enough punch.
Specifically,
Orks are pretty screwd by the DW stratagem, penalty in charge inches for each overwatch casauties taken will really mess up the green tide if they are charging in PKT with Aggressor member.
Necron would likely took a beating for the -1 for RP rolls, but the experience of the Necron part of me just shout out that the Necron units will simply die in one round if they are likely to cause trouble to the opponent so the RP will more often not cone into play. It will be a bonus but Necron armies no longer live and die to the RP any more.
Tau might took a hard beating as the Stratagem simply shrug off all the marker light token for 1CP ! It might really lower the accuracy of the Tau firepower as naturally, only their Commander have high enough BS while everything else have mid level BS only.
Nidz. The stratagem gives a little bonus fighting the Great Devourers. But tbh, sniping Synapse Characters is not as great as it sounds. First, The real creatures that pose serious threat against Marine arimes is either not synapse creature like Exocrine, Hive Guard, Genestealer hordes. Or are those big enough it can already been freely targetted like Flyrant. The only bonus this 2CP stratagem granted is shoot at Nerothropes, or Malanthropes or the overcosted Broodlord. The last one ate seldom seem on the table top in competitive Nidz army, and the former two are tough nuts due to hard to hit and inv saves. Furthermore, now the Synapse range is 24" instead of 12", and the penalty of IB is just a -1 to hit instead of the Nidz eating themselves or forced to go to ground. Soooooo, who cares if getting a Synapse Creature killed???
The anti Eldar one is simply plain trash for its costs of 2CP. 1st, Eldar fly units usually have mid to long range firepower so no need to move into 12" range. 2nd, Eldar has massive trickery to make themselves hard to hit, coupled with the penalty -1 to hit of this stratagem, we are likely hitting on 5s after paying 2CPs.... WTH!!!!!
What do you guys think? Any hidden gems to be discovered?
The Eldar one is great against things like Shining Spears that can cross the table and charge you turn 1. You're basically getting two instances of overwatch shooting. Being able to shoot at things in your opponents turns will go far, in the right circumstances, to making up for the firepower you lose by being an elite army with less bodies.
I think you'll start to see more synapse characters in the new meta now that Tyrants aren't going to number more than 3. The key here is that it's a super easy way to take out those characters without them being the closest model. Situational, sure, but you get that this is the DW, right? Reactive and flexible. Sometimes you may not use this one, which I think is okay.
So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.
The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.
He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?
Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.
saint_red wrote: So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.
The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.
He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?
Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.
I think Intercessors have Bolt Pistols AND Boltguns. That means they're 20PPM with gear now since you have to pay the SIA tax for each.
saint_red wrote: So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.
The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.
He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?
Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.
I wouldn't be so sure on veterans vs Primaris. Sure, their bolters have better AP, but they don't have the same transport options, weapon choices, and if veterans can still carry stormbolters then they're going to be pretty awesome.
While intercessors are pretty decent, especially with stalker bolt rifles and hellfire rounds, I think the real shining unit is going to be reivers.
120 points for native deepstrike and SIA on assault 2 guns? Yes please.
Veterans look a LOT better for tailoring to specific jobs, and using the better transport options to get there without costing as many points.
FW entries will still be the Go-to for handling anti-armor work I think, especially with reivers being a no-brainier choice for unlocking elite slot relics. Here I'm expecting stuff like Morris dreads to keep performing well (predator executioner looks tasty as well)
Can veterans carry storm bolsters? I have 10 storm bolter conversions and if they can take them then I think I’ll use the deathwatch to represent my chapter
demontalons wrote: Can veterans carry storm bolsters? I have 10 storm bolter conversions and if they can take them then I think I’ll use the deathwatch to represent my chapter
Yes. It's on the equipment list in the index, where you can pick one option from a list of ranged weapons. Per the designer commentary it's legal in the codex even if they leave it out, which I don't expect they did.
Edit: unless you meant Vanguard Vets, who probably can't.
I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.
Cephalobeard wrote: I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.
The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.
from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.
The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.
Cephalobeard wrote: I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.
The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.
from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.
The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.
I don't think Shotguns are a terrible idea if they're gotten cheap enough (it should really be identical in price or near) but yeah they're basically a Frag Cannon delivery system outside that.
Cephalobeard wrote: I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.
The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.
5 vets, either full melee or close range shooty with frag cannons in a squad with 4 bikes and a VV. Combat squad them, the bikes and VV can move fast, drop a teleport homer for the other squad if you want, or just do their thing. The bikes with VV can charge, disengage, shoot, and charge back in.
I'm just inebriated enough to think that that combat squad idea is actually really cool. I don't know if I'd call it good, but I think it's super cool.
Cephalobeard wrote: I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.
The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.
from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.
The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.
My plan is to go all-in with a Corvus filled with 4x FC, 4x Bolter/SS, 2x Term with SB/PS. 581 points assuming the points I've heard leaked is correct but it should be a pretty sticky pair of units that combined with a Guard army could make for a really thorny problem to deal with.
My go-to for chaff clearing in Index was 6 aggressors teleporting onto a watch captain with jump pack and the relic. I think it might still have play but I'll need to start the WC on the board, advance him up to get within 18" of the chaff line and then use the relic on T1. T2, I can drop other things into the hole they've made.
Anybody have any opinions on the best Leviathan loadout is now that we can deep strike them? Dual Grav sounds awesome, but the low number of shots combined with the movement penalty is hurting the math. Storm cannon array doesnt really need to be DS'd in though it is nice to keep it off the board. Cyclonic meltas are looking pretty tasty as you can now drop them into their 18" firing range, putting out 4D3 STR 9 AP -4 D6D shots with +1 to wound and rerolling 1's to wound assuming you burn the strat/mission tactic. If, by some miracle, the dread survives the response without getting bracketed, it can then either be hitting on 2's or move into melta bonus range.
If anyone is familiar enough with github there is a branch up for the battlescribe work. nothing is final etc, etc but given DW's complexity it's handy for rethinking lists.
My own thoughts so far after a few hours of tinkering:
its very easy to go waaay overboard with the primaris KT just like it is/was with vets. the basic principle of boys before toys and not putting all your eggs in one basket still applies.
Primaris still have a transport issue. The biggest ways around that are the teleport stratagem (which afaik hasn't been full-text leaked yet) and Reivers innate DS.
While intercessor kill-teams and hellblasters are cool, the options FW affords often do more for cheaper, case in point the quadlas mortis dreadnought, which costs all of a ven dread + $9 arm from FW including shipping, and you can field two of them for the price of a 5/5 int/HB Fortis KT.
Transports are pretty much required for vets to work, and should be considered as part of the unit price when drawing comparisons, even at the slightly cheaper base cost.
overall I'd expect deathwatch meta-lists to look something like this:
AM battaltion (you know what to expect here)
DW battalion:
-primaris watch cap
-primaris lib
-Intercessors x3
-Mortis x2
DW vanguard
????
Reivers x3
then filling out the remaining 600ish points with whatever floats your fancy
According to one review they said the reiver bolt carbine was bumped to 4 points. I hope they were wrong because that would just be stupid to pay. Everything going from their base cost to 1 higher is acceptable (Arguably not bolt pistols, but grumble grumble) but to go from 0 to 4 is just stupid.
I am not sure the lack of transports is such a huge issue for DW Primaris. Even with their standard guns they have 36 range (18 rapid) with krakens, so they can move and fire those until they're on range for hellfires.
Deathwatch is a very heavy CP usage army it seems. With the strategem that allows 1-3 units deep strike, along with all the mission tactics.
I am planning to deep strike a leviathan down range along with a huge blob of Primaris kill team armed with assault bolters for gunning and running and a captain with jump pack for re-rolls.
Heading to a ITC tourney the week after codex release, will report how it goes.
Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.
Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.
My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.
I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.
Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.
My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.
I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.
tbh I'd go lance/claw, purely because you'll already be within charge range, which would be just over a 60% chance if you assume using a CP to reroll the lowest die.
After further thoughts on effective anti-tank, the more I consider it the more I think dreadnoughts are the way forward for that in mono-deathwatch armies. Leviathans are fun, but given the cost and effects I'd argue for the Hellfire Carronade Deredeo as the single most cost-effective anti-tank weapon in the arsenal, given the ballistic skill, static 5-shot 8/-3/3 that is affected by mission tactics, the +1 to wound stratagems, and relative durability compared to other possible platforms.
Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.
My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.
I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.
tbh I'd go lance/claw, purely because you'll already be within charge range, which would be just over a 60% chance if you assume using a CP to reroll the lowest die.
After further thoughts on effective anti-tank, the more I consider it the more I think dreadnoughts are the way forward for that in mono-deathwatch armies. Leviathans are fun, but given the cost and effects I'd argue for the Hellfire Carronade Deredeo as the single most cost-effective anti-tank weapon in the arsenal, given the ballistic skill, static 5-shot 8/-3/3 that is affected by mission tactics, the +1 to wound stratagems, and relative durability compared to other possible platforms.
Not sure I want to mix weapons on the Leviathan. Getting 4D3 vs. 2D3 Cyclonic melta shots makes the most of the +1 to wound stratagem. I think double claw could be a possibility though.
I'm liking your Deredeo idea as it's also easier to fill an Elites slot than a Heavy Support in Deathwatch to satisfy the Relic requirement. The Atomantic Pavaise also gives the Primaris kill teams some much needed survivability.
I almost want to run both at the same time, though having a quarter of your points on two models is kind of a bad place to be at when youre already struggling to get bodies on the field.
The Deredeo is ok but the plasma cannonade is too short ranged to be properly effective. I've played games against it and could just ignore it for the most part.
The Levi is a beast and is pretty good in all configurations but I'd recommend the grav-flux bombard over the melta lance. It has better damage against almost all profiles but is also awesome against hordes or infantry units. Now that DW have Hellblasters filling the HS slot isn't that big a deal. The Land Raider Prometheus could also be an option for the -1CP on all the tasty +1 would stratagems.
saint_red wrote: The Deredeo is ok but the plasma cannonade is too short ranged to be properly effective. I've played games against it and could just ignore it for the most part.
The Levi is a beast and is pretty good in all configurations but I'd recommend the grav-flux bombard over the melta lance. It has better damage against almost all profiles but is also awesome against hordes or infantry units. Now that DW have Hellblasters filling the HS slot isn't that big a deal. The Land Raider Prometheus could also be an option for the -1CP on all the tasty +1 would stratagems.
I looked at the grav bombards first, but I disregarded them because the 2D3 shots, despite the higher average damage from the guaranteed 5D, isn't enough to make up for the 4D3 melta shots. The extra benefits vs hordes is nice, but nobody rocks Conscripts much any more and even infantry squads are usually 9 models for ITC purposes, so you'll only get 4D3 shots at them anyway, which is what you'd get with the dual meltas. It's only 10 models or above where the grav bombards pull ahead for horde work. It's also arguable if you really even need the anti horde option given the availability of bikes/sb vets/frag cannons/aggressors.
Isn't a Prometheus + HQ inside like 450 points? Seems like a lot to not be affecting the main battlefield to save me some CP when you can get 10 CP + refunds and 60 warm bodies for the same number of points. 24 HB shots isn't terrible, but I'm not sure it's enough offense for a quarter of your list.
