The Space Wolves and Blood Angels are nearly extinct, clearly they are going to turn down those Primaris reinforcements! The Black Templar, who lost two crusades in two Gathering Storm books, would never take reinforcements delivered by a son of the Emperor, brother of their Father, and High Lord of Terra. The Imperial Fists, who wasted much of their strength in Cadia and crusading, definitely would refuse Guilliman's pet project!

Lol. Get real.

You do know most of this is personal headcanon based on how we build our own armies, right?

If you are collecting a successor chapter, they can react however you want.

If You are playing a well established chapter, who in the fluff has both no reason to decline and has already accepted, saying that the Space Wolves (for example), who've been essentially annihilated, turn the Primaris and Guilliman down is laughable.

Just because I don't like whirlwinds doesn't mean the Ultramarines don't have any, or don't use them.

I WANT THE FLUFF TO CONTINUE BUT FOLLOWING MY HEAD CANNON!!!

I would say maybe for a custom chapter but for an official, no.

I checked out the white dwarf at the local GW today and they showed an example blood raven and black templar Primaris Marine, so we know those chapters have them

My Alpha Legion will be very curious about exactly how the Imperium suddenly got a hold of this tech, and will be asking Fabius some very thorough questions.

Secondly, spreading propaganda about how these are just psycho-indocrinated, gene-seed tampered Ultramarines loyal to Guilliman and no-one else. How else would you explain the sudden curing of the Canis Helix, Red Thirst, Black Rage, and Bathrobes, and their exclusively Guilliman-approved training?

I mean, wasn't this exactly why the Codex Astartes was implemented in the first place? But noooooo, not if Guilliman's the one in charge! The High Secretary hasn't ever done anything wrong! He's not even mislaid a paperclip in his life - his pens are organised alphabetically, his shampoos by fabrication date, and his fridge contents by colour.

I feel like everyone is working from a fluff assumption that Guilliman is defrosting these guys off by the thousands and air mailing clone armies to the existing chapters, like the end of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones.

Is it not still canonical that existing marines can be upgraded to Primaris?

Because, while I can't see Primaris Dark Angels being accepted outside of line combat units, I can entirely see the inner circle deciding some of their own elite number should become elevated to Primaris. I can imagine Inceptors in Ravenwing colors, piloted by centuries old veterans who are still healing from the implantation and bone growth necessary for the process, swooping on suspected fallen positions from orbit.

Blood Angels are trickier - that's the chapter I actually play these days, and we know they got half eaten by Tyranids. Their numbers are badly depleted, they'll want to rebuild... Is it okay if I imagine the survivors being upgraded to shoal up their scant numbers for a time, and teaming them up with a larger volume of scouts to reflect the new recruiting?

I feel like, for everyone, where this thing falls apart is when you say "They made these guys from your primarchs gene seed, but they don't know your chapter, they've never set foot on your homeworld, they have no history with the command structure, they didn't prove themselves to the recruiting officers, they don't share your culture... So, here's hundreds of them! Make them feel at home!" It feels like deploying a company of Ultramarines to the Space Wolves, and saying "Here, give them a mohawk or a dog tail or something. Bye!"

At the very least, I'll have to imagine the Captains and officers are OG Blood Angels, upgraded, there to guide and watch over the green recruits who's combat experience amounts to "was built on Mars at coincidentally the exact same time the Ultramarine's Primarch woke up and decided to use us."

I'm kind of pleased on a personal level I don't love the Primaris marines, they look good but I really don't want them in my army or for an army which is great considering my current army is the Minotaurs, attack dogs of the High Lords of Terra! always looking to prove themselves against greater foes, the Primaris will be a great reason to lay some smack down! not to mention Lord Asterion is already bigger than those little guys! ;-) the story arc between the High Lords and the Minotaurs could really expand into the wider universe if it gets deeper into the secrets.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
You do know most of this is personal headcanon based on how we build our own armies, right?

Seriously. Some of the "this is how canon will probably work" answers are perfectly reasonable, but there's a lot of seriously aggressive nonsense regarding how wrong headcanon is, here.

Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

Guilliman is the one who suggested no individual short of the Emperor should have that level of power in the Imperium, that was the whole reason behind breaking up the legions. It is certainly suspicious if a chapter turns down the reinforcements, but I don't think he should be forcing the issue on anyone.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
I'm kind of pleased on a personal level I don't love the Primaris marines, they look good but I really don't want them in my army or for an army which is great considering my current army is the Minotaurs, attack dogs of the High Lords of Terra! always looking to prove themselves against greater foes, the Primaris will be a great reason to lay some smack down! not to mention Lord Asterion is already bigger than those little guys! ;-) the story arc between the High Lords and the Minotaurs could really expand into the wider universe if it gets deeper into the secrets.

except Gulliman controls the high lords of Terra so I can't see the Minotaurs not having Primaris Marines. course this also raises an intreasting point, the Ultramarines are going to be the fair haired children of the lords right now, one wonders how the Minotaurs will respond to likely being shunted to the side. and treated like just another chapter of Marines.

I have two loyalist Chapters: Blood Angels and Dark Angels. I can see these two Chapters being at opposite ends of this argument about what to do with the Primaris Space Marines.

Blood Angels: With the approach of the Tyranids, the Blood Angels are desperate for Space Marines. <SPOILER> Dante even requested geneseed from his successor chapters. So I imagine, the Blood Angels would put them to work immediately, testing their abilities and granting them a greater role in Baal's defense as they prove themselves..

Dark Angels: The new Space Marines would be accepted, but not trusted. They would be treated as unproven recruits, and be required to earn the Chapter's trust, the way any new recruit is treated. Honestly, I could see them just packaged together as a new Primaris Wing, to keep tabs on them and sent off to non chaos related missions. The DA don't need Space Marines the way the Blood Angels do

*cough* Legion building *cough*

 Phydox wrote:

Dark Angels: The new Space Marines would be accepted, but not trusted. They would be treated as unproven recruits, and be required to earn the Chapter's trust, the way any new recruit is treated. Honestly, I could see them just packaged together as a new Primaris Wing, to keep tabs on them and sent off to non chaos related missions. The DA don't need Space Marines the way the Blood Angels do

*cough* Legion building *cough*

I suggest looking at the list of models given the Deathwing rule, you'll find Captain in Gravis Armor listed. So unless regular Captains can use it, looks like Primaris get to be invited to the secret dress parties.

i would suspect my chapter, the Blades of Invictus might not get primaris marines due to the fact that the ordo hereticus are breathing down their necks. if roboute guilliman got past the inquisition and sent my chapter the primaris marines (which i hope will happen.) part of my chapter (specifically my 4th and 11th company) had gone missing after the fall of cadia, so my chapter would be reluctant about their new brothers; but they would retrain the primaris marines and and fill in the two companies.

While the Blood Angels have been hammered in recent conflicts, and even though the other Companies have accepted the reinforcements supplied to aid in our defense of Baal... the 3rd Company has no need of them. The captain of the 3rd would rather take reinforcements from successor Chapters and their gene-seed and stand tall (well... short) as proud Astartes the way the Emperor envisioned.

It may be arrogance, but we are Blood Angels and the 3rd stands firm as true Astartes. The Tallarn fighting in the area are giving the 3rd support while we gloriously rise from the ashes on wings made of vengeance and wrath, working to restore our numbers.

(Now I can create a reason for both of my armies to work together, and should be real neat to slowly mix in more and more Blood Angels as I build and paint them, until I have the complete 3rd Company and run them by themselves)

 ChazSexington wrote:
My Alpha Legion will be very curious about exactly how the Imperium suddenly got a hold of this tech, and will be asking Fabius some very thorough questions.

Secondly, spreading propaganda about how these are just psycho-indocrinated, gene-seed tampered Ultramarines loyal to Guilliman and no-one else. How else would you explain the sudden curing of the Canis Helix, Red Thirst, Black Rage, and Bathrobes, and their exclusively Guilliman-approved training?

I mean, wasn't this exactly why the Codex Astartes was implemented in the first place? But noooooo, not if Guilliman's the one in charge! The High Secretary hasn't ever done anything wrong! He's not even mislaid a paperclip in his life - his pens are organised alphabetically, his shampoos by fabrication date, and his fridge contents by colour.

Haha! Exalt for conspiracy theories

And also, anything that makes Guilliman more the scheming hypocrite makes me happy not because I've got some sort of hate for Guilliman, but more because I feel it makes him a more compelling character.

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

also I suspect a good deal of those whom reject Primaris Marines do so in... polite manner.

something like this.

Gulliman> hello chapter master Bob of the Emperor's Random Nouns, I'm glad to meet you. and I bring a gift, the secrets to Primaris Marine creation. I shall gift you with the knowledge to raise your brethren to Priamris statusd and create new ones.

Bob> Thank you Lord Commander... *under breath* mess with the emperor's divine work? never..*loudly* we'll make proper use of this knowledge to be sure *underbreath* perhaps I can use the data disc as a coaster.

This is how it actually happened,
Roboute-Now Brother Wulf you are to lead the first company of sorry "pack" of Primaris Marines to our brethren the Space Wolves. Now Brother Russes scions were always notoriously isolationist but I have a cunning plan......
Several months later at the Fang.
Brother Wulf-Greetings my Lord Grimnar. How shall I prove our worth to you?
Lord Grimnar-Pup ypu'll never prove your worth to me.
Brother Wulf- How about a drinking competition then?
Several strong Fenrisian Ales later
Brother Wulf-And now howsh abouts an eatin competition.....
Ulrik the Slayer-Well at least he understands are chapters traditions even if he's a lightweight.

Death to the false Emperor and his lapdog!

My Obsidian Lions have a beef with Ultramarines and Guilliman specifically. Therefore Guilliman and his Guillimarines can go suck it.

I was thinking about resurrecting the Fire Hawks with Primaris Marines, though. Since they have zero to do with the old chapter (not that it's easy to hook up with Fire Hawks these days...) it would only be a pretty color scheme, of course. Got to wait and see how viable that is, though. I really only like normal Mk.X armor, not the flying dudes or Gravis.

BrianDavion wrote:
also I suspect a good deal of those whom reject Primaris Marines do so in... polite manner.

My bad. Guilliman and his Guillimarines can kindly go suck it. There. Diplomacy is me.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

Sure, the lag time in communication and travel mean real time control of far flung worlds is impossible. However apparently Guilliman went around in person. Primarchs are more than simply government guys or Marine superhero+++. Any Chapter faced with a resurrected Primarch is going to find it hard if not impossible to give a total refusal to an effective physical demigod that occupies a place analogous to an Archangel, in claiming to know the will of the God(-Emperor). Chapters might covertly or passive aggressively sideline the Primaris marines after superficially accepting them, but I see it hard for any Chapter to outright refuse (let alone directly insult Guilliman to his face).

That very religious reverence is where I see Guilliman falling victim to temptation or failing in his reform, in the sense that I think he will take advantage of his revered status to try and ram changes through the ossified structure of the Imperium. However he also then succumbs to not trying to dismantle the religion of the Imperium because it is "useful" to him.

 Geifer wrote:
My Obsidian Lions have a beef with Ultramarines and Guilliman specifically. Therefore Guilliman and his Guillimarines can go suck it.

your random chapter has a beef with the primarch of the Ultramarines specificly.... because?

In a nutshell: Imperial Fists successor who blame Guilliman for not being there for the defense of Terra, then splitting up their legion so that no one would wield the kind of power Horus had. Then taking over the Imperium with a loyal, almost intact legion backing him and acting like the savior of the Imperium.

That didn't go down well with them. I'm sure you can see how his return playing out similarly won't be greeted well either.

I'm just wondering on would the Chapters want to take them in, sure a large proportion would as they are the next step on the ladder and poop hot, but are there questions as to where does the loyalty of the Primaris marines lie first and foremost. Will it be to Guilliman or to their Chapter? Would the Dark Angels be apprehensive of taking in Primaris Marines if they were to learn their secrets and then run to Guilliman, same with the Blood Angels and theirs. Even if they shared the same Geneseed. In the case of the Blood Angels why not replace every Blood Angel with Primaris if they don't have the flaws.

Also, how do the current Astartes feel to be replaced by the Primaris, I would imagine that some would be wary and darn right outraged that that they, the Emperors finest for 10,000 years, were being pushed to the wayside for this new breed.

It's still new fluff and like with everything else, we will have to wait and see. But I hope something comes of these misgivings and we have another Heresy as Chapters turn against the law of Guilliman,.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Realistically I find it hard to believe any Space Marine Chapter can get away with total refusal. Guilliman is a Primarch and occupy a place in the Imperial religion dominated worldview like an Archangel (if one sees Marines as Angels). Even in Chapters that claim to not be religious (self-deception I say), the Primarchs still occupy a position of reverence beyond that of any normal human High Lord. If anyone in the 40K era could claim to have an idea of the Emperor's intent and will, it would be a Primarch, who interacted with a living walking Emperor.

There's an assumption here that the upper management of the Imperium has the faintest idea what's going on anywhere else. Like all leaders of large organisations, they'll have the vaguest of ideas what's going on in places and make decisions based on information that's fed to them by a long chain of people.

Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, and the bureaucracy they've perfected, I can absolutely see Astartes chapters doing basically whatever it is they want for a long time before anyone bats an eyelid. Beyond stuff that's immediately traitorous of course.

Sure, the lag time in communication and travel mean real time control of far flung worlds is impossible. However apparently Guilliman went around in person. Primarchs are more than simply government guys or Marine superhero+++. Any Chapter faced with a resurrected Primarch is going to find it hard if not impossible to give a total refusal to an effective physical demigod that occupies a place analogous to an Archangel, in claiming to know the will of the God(-Emperor). Chapters might covertly or passive aggressively sideline the Primaris marines after superficially accepting them, but I see it hard for any Chapter to outright refuse (let alone directly insult Guilliman to his face).

That very religious reverence is where I see Guilliman falling victim to temptation or failing in his reform, in the sense that I think he will take advantage of his revered status to try and ram changes through the ossified structure of the Imperium. However he also then succumbs to not trying to dismantle the religion of the Imperium because it is "useful" to him.

Now I know it's probably written somewhere, but I have a very difficult time believing that Guilliman went round in person to even a quarter of the Marine chapters that exist. Given how mindbogglingly large the galaxy is, how many Marines chapters there are, where those chapters are situated, and how long he's had to do it (all the while running a Crusade as well) I just can't see him personally visiting any chapter unless they just so happened to be in the path of his crusade. Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Not that that stops fluff writers on occasion, but it's just not physically possible in the couple of hundred years Guilliman's had to do it.

I do get your point about Guilliman being a mythical figure to pretty much all Astartes simply by dint of being a Primarch though. Even if he wasn't their Primarch, he's still a figure of utter reverence in the Imperium's history.

Saying that, there's oodles of reasons chapters could be suspicious enough of him and his reforms to reject them. Just because he's a figure of myth, doesn't mean he's universally respected. Especially by the descendants of other Legions who have a grudge to bear against the Ultramarines/something to fear by accepting new blood.

 Geifer wrote:
In a nutshell: Imperial Fists successor who blame Guilliman for not being there for the defense of Terra, then splitting up their legion so that no one would wield the kind of power Horus had. Then taking over the Imperium with a loyal, almost intact legion backing him and acting like the savior of the Imperium.

That didn't go down well with them. I'm sure you can see how his return playing out similarly won't be greeted well either.

Seems liek a solid and believable reason to dislike the Ultramarines to me

From the dark imperium book, looks like the primaris themselves want to join their respective chapters, the book makes it clear that they are of the gene-stock of their primarchs. At the end of the Crusade(As Guilliman prepares to return to the ultramar systems to deal with Mortarion) The remaining Greyshields(Primaris not assigned to chapters, of mixed backgrounds and geneseeds) are being divided up and sent off to existing/new chapters, but not all are happy with their new lot.

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love all of the original legion marine players thinking that their chapter wont take in Primus.. when it has been established that they all have =D

yup, we know FOR A FACT space wolf and dark angel primaris marines exist.

GW dark angels do, but my dark angels will be following established fluff and not be including any, gw can force them into the fluff of any chapter bar dark angels, it doesn't fit them at all.

Even more so as it raises other questions, where are all the centurions at? Storm ravens? Etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And pre heresy gear? The ONE chapter that should have them in abundance has none, it's silly

My homebrew chapter doesn't like anyone, but unlike people saying that the Ultramarines can "suck it", keeping the crumbling Imperium together is more important than being spiteful for the sake of being spiteful. They'll likely be used like tools, like any alliances outside their chapter.

My Lamenters probably wouldn't be offered any, as Marneus Calgar doesn't like them and he'd probbaly have a word in Girlyman's shell-like.

My Astra Claws stopped existing before Primaris Marines started existing.

My small numbers of Executioners and Mantis Warriors would probably welcome them, but I doubt I'll get any myself.

I might create a chapter of Primaris Marines called The Kodiaks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My homebrew chapter doesn't like anyone, but unlike people saying that the Ultramarines can "suck it", keeping the crumbling Imperium together is more important than being spiteful for the sake of being spiteful. They'll likely be used like tools, like any alliances outside their chapter.

It's not that they get dumped on a landfill. They can still die for the Emperor, as long as they do it somewhere else.

Just to depart from one's personal opinion on how one's own chapter is going to handle things, does it even matter if a chapter declines taking Primaris?

Sure, I think it was in one of GW's articles that they said all but a few chapters accept, which I think we can all agree is a marketing move into which the integrity of the background didn't enter. But are there even enough Primaris to go around? I seem to remember the numbers 20,000 or 100,000 for the Indomitus Crusade, Can anybody chime in on these numbers?

The point is, if Guilliman had a 100,000 Primaris he could send a sample to each chapter and ask them to put their orders in by Friday afternoon. Orders capped at a company because there aren't enough to go around.

It seems to me like it's not a big deal if a chapter refuses because that just means another chapter gets an additional company of Primaris. And considering that GW did their best to deplete established chapters before 8th ed, there's no shortage in demand from the big chapters.

Man i dont even know how centurion suits fit into the codex form let alone primarus.

has there actually been any fluff so far regarding how they are integrated?

My Blood Angels will take anything they can get after nearly losing Baal.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
I'm kind of pleased on a personal level I don't love the Primaris marines, they look good but I really don't want them in my army or for an army which is great considering my current army is the Minotaurs, attack dogs of the High Lords of Terra! always looking to prove themselves against greater foes, the Primaris will be a great reason to lay some smack down! not to mention Lord Asterion is already bigger than those little guys! ;-) the story arc between the High Lords and the Minotaurs could really expand into the wider universe if it gets deeper into the secrets.

See, I don't exactly agree.

I see the Minotaurs (My favorite chapter) using whatever tool they can in order to get the job done. They have access to the best of the best and will use the best they have to snuff out traitors and purge the xenos plague.

I do hope they decide to expand on the Minotaurs. I've been patiently waiting for the day Forgeworld puts out a codex for them. (I know, slim chances there)

 Desubot wrote:
Man i dont even know how centurion suits fit into the codex form let alone primarus.

has there actually been any fluff so far regarding how they are integrated?

none yet, I imagine those questions will be answered later. generally I suspect it'll vary a little and we'll see 4 distinct approuches.

1st: will be the rare chapters that just don't use Primaris Marines. these are gonna be rare, and not really covered by GW, but if you decide your chapter doesn't have Primaris well you continue on like always.
2: Chapters that Intergrate their Primaris Marines into their existing company structure, an intercessor squad replacing a tatical squad etc.
this'll proably be pretty common. and in the short term, be the most common method of deployment.
3: Primaris Companies: entire companies of Primaris Marines will be formed, (it's worth noting Gulliman seems to have revised the codex to allow at least one more company) as part of a mixed chapter.
4: Primaris pure chapters.


I suspect we'll see examples of each (except the first GW wants to sell Primaris Marines after all) . with mixed companies, at least for the moment, being the current standard.

For the Crimson Fists? Yes please, every bolter counts. My Flesh Tearers? Seth would probably think that's a bad idea. You know, witnesses, occasional fratricide. The new guys might not have the team spirit.
My Alpha Legion would be even now ambushing the new chapters to test thier mettle and trying to work infiltrators into Cawl's laboratory.

 Brotherjulian wrote:
My Flesh Tearers? Seth would probably think that's a bad idea. You know, witnesses, occasional fratricide. The new guys might not have the team spirit.

Flesh Tearers have been wanting to get rid of their 'Team Sprit' for years... since you know that Sprit tends to make them go cray cray quicker then they can be replaced

My 10k pts of Dark Angels have decided not to allow Primaris Marines among their ranks. They have not been privy to the hunt and cannot be trusted with inner circle secrets. I am excited to start collecting a whole new army of Primaris Imperial Fists however now to decide on yellow or blue.

My Deathwatch would accept any primaris marines that prove themselves worthy to join up in the fight against the xenos


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also my alpha legion will probabaly brain wash a bunch of the ultrasmurfs ones so that the colour scheme is easy to change and to annoy the smurfs

"All Chapters" - I wonder if that includes Grey Knights?

If at any point we see Primaris Librarians, I don't see why not.

 Stormonu wrote:
"All Chapters" - I wonder if that includes Grey Knights?

If at any point we see Primaris Librarians, I don't see why not.

Primaris Libby's exist. ref: the Dark Imperium Novel

I've had a fair few normal marine models lying around half painted for years, I'm thinking about painting them up as opponents for my Orks so need an excuse not to use Primaris!

Silver Skulls

During the Imdomitus Crusade, the lords of the Silver Skulls Chapter made a great show of graciously accepted the gift of Primaris Technology and honoured Guilleman with reciprocal gifts and renewed pledges of brotherhood.
However, spies of the Administratum and Inquisition noted that, decades after receiving this technology, the Chapter has been slow in creating and incorporating Primaris marines into their ranks.
Those that do exist are deployed to fulfil the Chapter's obligations in the most desperate of war zones where attrition rates are highest.

Proponents of Cawl's new methods have dismissed this as mere coincidence, or as evidence of unforeseen difficulties of applying Primaris technology to human genetic variations in the wider galaxy. However, whispered conjecture and rumours in the gloomy alcoves of the Senatorum Imperialis persist regarding what dark future and foul betrayals the Prognosticors of the Chapter have seen the the Primaris's future to make the Silver Skulls so reluctant to employ these powerful new technologies...

My Space Wolves are going to give them some axes and shiny and/or furry, dangly bits, call them "Successor Chapters' then send them packing in the same ships they arrived in.

If they come back to help in a fight at some point they might acknowledge them as Space Wolves Successor Chapters.

 Frazzled wrote:

the ancient wrote:
When 6, no, 10 BA chapter masters fall in as many minutes.
I doubt they have the bodies to say no.
I dunno why Cawl doesnt just clone Guilliman 50 times.
Sorry khaos, theres a Guilliman in this sector, you auto lose.
Orks you say, Pfft Blue is better than red, oh theres a gulliman here as well. Gnashing of ork teef.
Eldar turn up to a maiden world. WTF is that blueberry. I dont think Yavraine thought this through.

You actually make a good point. Why wouldn't you just mass clone the Smurfmaster, or the SpAzzEmprah for that matter? Or even better dig up the best naval officers and Solar Macharius and go to town? We know they have the cloning technology ( remember the Imperial Guard clone troops?)

I think Gdubs are hoping everyone ignores that bit. For for a magus mystic, that can make a few new organs, from where, Emperor knows. But its prolly Guilliman.
At a guess its cause its sort of a Tau, rogue trooper, put your brain on a chip, when you die thing.
The DKOK are clones, why there are clones and sick tyranids, that have never been to the galaxy before, but are in the galactic east, and Ymgarl is in the Galactic North west? Ignore that bit too, for the moment.
The Geno Five-Two Chiliadis are gene enhanced.

My chapter and their IG allies have been separated from the IoM since just before the end of the heresy and have only been apart of the IoM proper for the last 300 years. They are very suspicious of the IoM since it has changed so much from what was remembered. Although their home world, system and the neighbouring systems are currently beset by orks, tyranid splinter fleets, chaos uprisings and elder incursions (Local club Meta) they will still refuse Girlymans "gift".

I can see Dante seeing the Sanguinor shaking its head out the corner of his eye. This isnt the hope you I was talking about.
Do not trust the false dues ex.
But, Plot twist, Dantes been sucking his chapters blood to the last mans blood every few centuries.

BO0MER wrote:
My chapter and their IG allies have been separated from the IoM since just before the end of the heresy and have only been apart of the IoM proper for the last 300 years. They are very suspicious of the IoM since it has changed so much from what was remembered. Although their home world, system and the neighbouring systems are currently beset by orks, tyranid splinter fleets, chaos uprisings and elder incursions (Local club Meta) they will still refuse Girlymans "gift".

If they put a great value on how things were during the Great Crusade, why would they refuse Guilliman, particularly when he's trying to change the Imperium to be more like it was back then. If anything you'd think they'd support that endeavor more than most.

Your chapter, your fluff though.

They would be assigned to a (smaller) brother as their Neophyte and be shown the way of the sword and bolter.
If they meet the approval of their Initiate, then they would be accepted into the chapter with full honors and expected to bring glory to the chapter.
I think the only fear is if they do not demonstrate sufficient zeal.
I made my own fluff for my BT's that to curb the Inquisition looking too closely at their numbers, many of the less zealous BT's are sent to them "to be used as they see fit in the name of the Emperor" as volunteers to support their great work.

I could just imagine some as "Black Shields" for the Deathwatch who are more practical than most Space Marine chapters.

As Ultramarine successors and Guilliman loyalists my chapter would totally be down with some super duper Space Marines.

Considering the practically extinct chapter numbers at 59 marines and one cruiser, I would say they'd gladly accept such gifts from the author of the codex which they adhere to so strictly.

(Crimson Sabres)

My bull**** reason will avoid the fluff that I ignore but also try to stay to the fluff to not accept Primaris Marines that I don't read the lore but assume for.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
My bull**** reason will avoid the fluff that I ignore but also try to stay to the fluff to not accept Primaris Marines that I don't read the lore but assume for.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
My bull**** reason will avoid the fluff that I ignore but also try to stay to the fluff to not accept Primaris Marines that I don't read the lore but assume for.

Thread in a nutshell. Just as confusing.

Haha, what?

The Company of Erik Firewolf, after some warp-timeshift shenanigans, appear on the wrong side of the Cicatrix Maledictum and find an isolated force of Primaris. After fighting together for over 80 years, they're pretty well bonded. When they return to the Nine Worlds for resupply, the Taghmata Hvergelmir scavenges all their tech to add to their libraries, and the Wolf Priests learn the differences between Astartes and Primaris so they can create their own.
Then the Althing, the ruling body of the Lost Companies, decides that they don't trust these new marines so Erik, being a free spirit, takes his Primaris and the rest of his Company and goes back to the Imperium.

Most Companies have no Primaris, the Firewolves do have them.

My (as of yet unnamed chapter) will be comprised entirely of Primaris marines, so they're cool with it. For fluff reasons, I think I might have their chapter master and a few select others be former old marines who received the upgrade, to form a core of experienced fighters to help break them in. That is a thing right? Upgrading old marines into Primaris marines?

After Crawl was revieled to be Alpharius and Omegon in a horse costume, my resurrected chapter of Primaris activated and switched their colors to the Alpha Legion.

Considering my Chapter was the first to get them (Ultramarines) I'd guess they'll be accepted just fine. As for my second Marine Chapter, I'm not sure yet. If I go with Crimson Fists they would happily take those reinforcements. If I go with Blood Ravens they'd probably also happily accept them (assuming Dow 2: Retribution is still considered canon)

My little continent of ultramarines are the last survivors of a battle demi-company that got lost in the warp shortly after Guilliman got poisoned by Fulgrim
(See also, lame excuse to use calth marines for 40k).

Upon translation back into real space; my Chaplain hears of Guilliman's actions, and refusing to accept the possibility of the primarch living, suspecting heretical warp sorcery; my Ultramarines have gone renegade, fighting for humanity, not the Imperium. Primaris marines will be engaged with extreme violence as the epitome of the corruption and poster boys for the demon primach-imposter.

why do you need a fnacy overly complicated excuse to use mk IV armor on a 1st founding chapter?

We are going to attempt to capture some alive, and then hire the services of Fabius Bile.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:
My Grey Knights wouldn't care or need them, but my Iron Hands would think differently.

Interesting. Do you think the Iron Hands as a whole would be willing to accept the Primaris Marines? Do you think the Iron Hand Primaris marines would modify themselves as the current ones do or do you think the addition of the Primaris might be the change in direction that the Iron Hands need?

There is an Iron Hand in Dark Imperium... and he's already replaced at least one hand.

Which seems odd and senseless.

I think my favorites-- BA, Sallies, and RG-- will probably react with suspicion, but accept the reinforcements nonetheless simply because they need them. They're not too divergent from the codex, but they're also not ultramarine successors, so they don't exactly have undying loyalty to robooty.

While not a chapter...

The 85th Scion ''Reforged'': the leadership already doesn't like SM much, they are not going to enjoy those new mutants in PA. The tank and file is going to appreciate the extra support

Krieg 5th Siege: reactions and feelings are for other people

With gratitude and hope. Health and powerful new marines without mutations? It's exactly that need the Guardians of the Night!

My chapter wouldn't even been given them as they were declared renegade added with the fact that it was successor chapter decending from guiliman that screwed over their former homeworld secretis i highly doubt they would accept such an offer even with the situation the chapter is in

Funnuy enough Im a minotaurs guy too and I take the opposite dtance- I see the minotaurs as probably the very first adopters of the Primaris.

Why?

A) counter balance to Roboute. He can call in his Ultras for anything at any time. It's incredibly useful having another pocket Astartes chapter that answers to you, and not him.

B) like wise the Ultras have just been hugely boosted with tje new Primaris Astartes- it only makes sense to ensure that yournown forces are at at least the same level of capability as your potential enemies.

C) being so closely tied to the high lords means that they can be reinforced immediately, meaning that they probably get access to the very best of the best astartes using thier geneseed...

D) The gene seed of which Ive always liked the thought of being originally World Eater geneseed. Which given that Cawl made Adyartes from all 20 primarchs already makes you wonder if maybe some of the high lords have known what
he was doing for a long time. Some of the other chapters from around the time of the cursed fonding seem alot like prototypes, or experimental releases leading up to this.

E) Or perhaps Roboute himself likes having an extra force of Astartes beyond the Ultras to call upon at his leasure. The Ultras cant be everywhere at once, and the Minotaurs have an excellent skill set. Very much justifiable to give them the primaris treatment.

My Ultramarines will welcome them with open arms.

My Dark Angels will laugh arrogantly and respond by stone-walling them, just like they do for everyone else in the galaxy. DA's don't play no gak.

 CthulhuDawg wrote:
My 10k pts of Dark Angels have decided not to allow Primaris Marines among their ranks. They have not been privy to the hunt and cannot be trusted with inner circle secrets. I am excited to start collecting a whole new army of Primaris Imperial Fists however now to decide on yellow or blue.

Im in the same boat. I wasnt sure if I wanted to continue down my Crimson Fist route with my Primaris, so I painted a test Imperial Fist and well, its quite a striking scheme....

I think Im going to actually paint up my primaris as Deathwatch because im so indecisive with color schemes.

That, or paint the left half of each Primaris as Crimson Fists, but the other half as another chapter on each mini, cause my Crimson Fists already have marines lent to them from all sorts of chapters (from the Great Marine Swap), so these would be the "returned" Fists from each chapter, their armor painted to honor both chapters.. does that sound too cheesy?

Primaris Deathwatch sounds quite fluffy, actually. I approve.

 Melissia wrote:
Primaris Deathwatch sounds quite fluffy, actually. I approve.

Melissia's seal of approval

Perhaps I must now haha. Time to sculpt some shoulder pads

Long time no see, youre one of the few users I used to know that I have yet to say hello to since returning from my self imposed dakka exile while I was finishing college. Howve you been?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Funnuy enough Im a minotaurs guy too and I take the opposite dtance- I see the minotaurs as probably the very first adopters of the Primaris.

Why?

A) counter balance to Roboute. He can call in his Ultras for anything at any time. It's incredibly useful having another pocket Astartes chapter that answers to you, and not him.

B) like wise the Ultras have just been hugely boosted with tje new Primaris Astartes- it only makes sense to ensure that yournown forces are at at least the same level of capability as your potential enemies.

C) being so closely tied to the high lords means that they can be reinforced immediately, meaning that they probably get access to the very best of the best astartes using thier geneseed...

D) The gene seed of which Ive always liked the thought of being originally World Eater geneseed. Which given that Cawl made Adyartes from all 20 primarchs already makes you wonder if maybe some of the high lords have known what
he was doing for a long time. Some of the other chapters from around the time of the cursed fonding seem alot like prototypes, or experimental releases leading up to this.

E) Or perhaps Roboute himself likes having an extra force of Astartes beyond the Ultras to call upon at his leasure. The Ultras cant be everywhere at once, and the Minotaurs have an excellent skill set. Very much justifiable to give them the primaris treatment.

You know Robute is the head of the High Lords, so he'd already have them at hand

After losing their beloved Captain Tycho, fighting off Orks, Nids and Daemons, my 3rd Blood Angels immediately welcome their new Primaris Brothers, and throw them in to the front lines.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Funnuy enough Im a minotaurs guy too and I take the opposite dtance- I see the minotaurs as probably the very first adopters of the Primaris.

Why?

A) counter balance to Roboute. He can call in his Ultras for anything at any time. It's incredibly useful having another pocket Astartes chapter that answers to you, and not him.

B) like wise the Ultras have just been hugely boosted with tje new Primaris Astartes- it only makes sense to ensure that yournown forces are at at least the same level of capability as your potential enemies.

C) being so closely tied to the high lords means that they can be reinforced immediately, meaning that they probably get access to the very best of the best astartes using thier geneseed...

D) The gene seed of which Ive always liked the thought of being originally World Eater geneseed. Which given that Cawl made Adyartes from all 20 primarchs already makes you wonder if maybe some of the high lords have known what
he was doing for a long time. Some of the other chapters from around the time of the cursed fonding seem alot like prototypes, or experimental releases leading up to this.

E) Or perhaps Roboute himself likes having an extra force of Astartes beyond the Ultras to call upon at his leasure. The Ultras cant be everywhere at once, and the Minotaurs have an excellent skill set. Very much justifiable to give them the primaris treatment.

You know Robute is the head of the High Lords, so he'd already have them at hand

yup, hoenstly I think there's something to be done with the minotaurs on this, with the rise of Gulliman have they been supplanted by the Ultramarines? have they fallen into the orbit of a high lord whose not nesscarily buddy buddy with Gulliman. Are they Gulliman's "strong left hand" while the UMs are his right hand? lotta potential

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


You know Robute is the head of the High Lords, so he'd already have them at hand

Of course- but several things are worth thinking about.

1) Roboute is now leader of the high lords, but even acter a century of sitting there thats a pretty sudden change, and the ties of patronage and favors didn't suddenly disappear either. Chances are anyone who was a highlord and now isnt because of Roboute still commands ALOT of power.

2) further, The minotaurs and ultramarines are noted as having something of a rivalry with the Ultramarines and have insulted Marneus Calgar. Whobnows just how willing the Minotaurs themselves would be to be commanded by Roboute?

Considering those two things I think the Minotaurs are very likely to continue to be in partnerships with the other high lords.

And as long as its kept reasonable Roboute might even be okay with that status quo. Letting the other high lords have thier toys keeps up the appearance of Roboute just being a regent, not a new Emperor...

The Sons of Dantioch are extreme backwards in their tech as they have refused most of the new tech since the horus heresy they still keep to their primachs (loyal) words that MKIII is the best designed armour for their combat roles So unless you can get primaris marines in MKIII armour the manufactorums in the Schadenhold wont be able to keep them supplied with vital equipment

So to answer the question we will accept the technology on how to make primaris marines but we shall now keep in mind me might need to talk about maybe altering our powerarmour supplylines but the chaptermaster and the forge priests will agree that after 10000 years of producing MKIII the machinespirit will not be pleased and might die after its long and loyal service to the emperor

SO we would accept the tech but becouse of logistic reasons we might abstain of recruiting primaris marines for standard battleroles.

It's strange, reading through this thread, because there are two ways to view it.

In terms of players talking about a game, it would appear most people still want to be Wolverine and not Cyclops. The ego of your average fella' sees goodness and naiveté as the same thing, and wants to be the rebel who plays by his own set of rules, only to turn out to always be right in the end.

In terms of this being in-universe characters with these opinions, it would gladden the heart of my World Eaters to see such rampant dissension amongst the Imperial ranks. The Primarch already had a nearly impossible task ahead of him, and as he attempts to be the face of authority and deliverer of light, the paranoia and suspicions of the debased modern Astartes instinctively recoil from that light, and choose to walk the path of the renegade. Horus is gone, but the Heresy is apparently far from over, and Chaos has many friends amongst the Primarch's supposed allies.

My marines are all about Bernie or bust


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, you said Primaris

 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
Howve you been?

Stressed out, overworked, underemployed. Have only just now, after a break basically since late fifth edition, started to get back in to 40k. Have started assembly on scouts for my 1st and 10th Blood Angels list.

I don't really like what Primaris represent-- being GW's next step up on its perpetual attempts to create Marines to the Marine'th power. But like it or not, they're a thing in 40k now. And if they were to be justified to exist without facing suspicion anywhere outside of ultramarines and their successor chapters, I'd say Inquisition or Deathwatch would be the best place for them, since both will take marines from almost any walk of life as long as they're willing to serve with distinction.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Funnuy enough Im a minotaurs guy too and I take the opposite dtance- I see the minotaurs as probably the very first adopters of the Primaris.

Why?

A) counter balance to Roboute. He can call in his Ultras for anything at any time. It's incredibly useful having another pocket Astartes chapter that answers to you, and not him.

B) like wise the Ultras have just been hugely boosted with tje new Primaris Astartes- it only makes sense to ensure that yournown forces are at at least the same level of capability as your potential enemies.

C) being so closely tied to the high lords means that they can be reinforced immediately, meaning that they probably get access to the very best of the best astartes using thier geneseed...

D) The gene seed of which Ive always liked the thought of being originally World Eater geneseed. Which given that Cawl made Adyartes from all 20 primarchs already makes you wonder if maybe some of the high lords have known what
he was doing for a long time. Some of the other chapters from around the time of the cursed fonding seem alot like prototypes, or experimental releases leading up to this.

E) Or perhaps Roboute himself likes having an extra force of Astartes beyond the Ultras to call upon at his leasure. The Ultras cant be everywhere at once, and the Minotaurs have an excellent skill set. Very much justifiable to give them the primaris treatment.

You know Robute is the head of the High Lords, so he'd already have them at hand

yup, hoenstly I think there's something to be done with the minotaurs on this, with the rise of Gulliman have they been supplanted by the Ultramarines? have they fallen into the orbit of a high lord whose not nesscarily buddy buddy with Gulliman. Are they Gulliman's "strong left hand" while the UMs are his right hand? lotta potential

Lot of potential indeed, but I wouldnt hold my breath on it being explored.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Spoiler:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


You know Robute is the head of the High Lords, so he'd already have them at hand

Of course- but several things are worth thinking about.

1) Roboute is now leader of the high lords, but even acter a century of sitting there thats a pretty sudden change, and the ties of patronage and favors didn't suddenly disappear either. Chances are anyone who was a highlord and now isnt because of Roboute still commands ALOT of power.

2) further, The minotaurs and ultramarines are noted as having something of a rivalry with the Ultramarines and have insulted Marneus Calgar. Whobnows just how willing the Minotaurs themselves would be to be commanded by Roboute?

Considering those two things I think the Minotaurs are very likely to continue to be in partnerships with the other high lords.

And as long as its kept reasonable Roboute might even be okay with that status quo. Letting the other high lords have thier toys keeps up the appearance of Roboute just being a regent, not a new Emperor...

Well Robute has already shown to not be like Calgar to the point Calgar kinda has an issue with him. The Minotaurs could not have a problem with him at all. He could leave them with the Lords, because its not like he'd be worried about them considering he has the Custodes at his command now days, what threat could they pose?

the issue between him and Calgar seems more in Calgar's mind, seeing slights that aren't there, fear of not being good eneugh etc. that combined with the fact that Gulliman's things have a near holy reverance for most Ultramarines but for Gulliman it's just his old stuff. it'd be like if jesus came back and we found the Holy Grail, while people are all going ape over the Holy Grail, Jesus is just like "ohh hey my cup, hey take this and go get me some beer would you?"

Ah, I see.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Ah, I see.

\
doesn't mean it can't lead to some tension but it'd be more along the lines of *Calgar turns of Gulliman, and gives some long winded explination listing all his slights* followed by Gulliman looking at him funny, face palming and saying "DUDE! I WAS COMPLIMENTING YOU!"

Which is unfortunate. As he is right now, Guilliman is... kinda boring, to me. But that's another topic entirely; let's get back to primaris.

 Melissia wrote:
Which is unfortunate. As he is right now, Guilliman is... kinda boring, to me. But that's another topic entirely; let's get back to primaris.

there's some intreasting stuff that COULD be done with Gulliman (dark Imperium is worth reading if you haven't already) but I'm of the mind we won't see much done with him. generally GW doesn't do much with ANY of their characters, I can't think of many chars with a mini that have a deep compelling back story too. most of the real intreasting 40k chars tend to be characters designed for a novel. not table top special characters who later appered in a book

Yeah, but IMO he's the least intersting character released thus far for tabletop, and I include the other primarchs in that.

From a fluff perspective I'd have to imagine the Exorcists don't have any. There's no way on mars they were possessing marines with daemons to purge the ranks somewhat

I'm taking opposite approaches with my two homebrew chapters.

My codex-compliant Knights of the Ardent Flame will, for the foreseeable future, refuse Primaris reinforcements.
Practically this is because I already had a road map for where I want this army to get, model-wise, but I also like to think of it this way:

My army consists largely of the 3rd company, who were in the process of replenishing heavy losses following a campaign against a Tyranid splinter fleet (so making use of scouts and 9th/10th-company reserves), right around 999 M41.

So when the events of the Gathering Storm happened and Guilliman shows up and shakes up the Imperium they actually wind up resentful rather than inspired. After all, they were working hard to rebuild their chapter/company on their own - who is this primarch to show up and tell them they're going about it wrong, and to start doing things 'his' way? It's very much a lesson in "never meet your hero" for this chapter and they are suspicious and distrustful of Guilliman and all the change he calls for.



Now on the other hand my Blood Angels successors, the Bronze Angels, embrace the change. This is another instance of me taking fluff cues from how I'm planning out army building/model purchases. I only went for 'fast' models for this army so that it played differently from my other marine forces, so I came up with fluff reasons to explain away the lack of tanks, slow models like terminators, etc. by having the Bronze Angels be a fleet-based chapter with limited resources. They are always on the move and considered by the Inquisition to be borderline heretics (because they embrace the Black Rage), so they have problems with logistics, etc. which means they favour units that can deploy rapidly and they eschew all else.

In looking to expand this army, though, the Primaris range seems like an interesting opportunity so I've figured a way to work out some fluff to allow it.

Having been recalled to Baal to aid the Blood Angels in their hour of need, they were present when Guilliman showed up with reinforcements. Being religious fanatics they, like many others, view him as an incarnation of the Emperor's will and are willing to bend over backwards to please him. This combined with suffering heavy losses when aiding the Blood Angels means that they accept Primaris reinforcements (and other additions) readily.



So that's two takes on it, driven by a combination of purchasing decisions/practicality and fluff intermingling.

As for official chapters, well, I decided to make my Space Wolves up as Egil Ironwolf's great company...shortly before he died. So I've since decided to collect the company as a historically re-created 'snapshot' from their time prior to all that unpleasantness on Fenris - so no Primaris.

On the other hand, I've been wanting for a while to collect a small batch of Aurora marines because I like the way they look, but it was always hard to justify starting another marine army that would essentially wind up too similar to one I already own. And then the Primaris come along... So I'm going 100% Primaris for them as a fun, small-scale project.

My BA 3rd company will be all over them, as with all BA they need all hands on deck now.

My stonefists chapter won't have a problem with the primaris reinforcements, but the primaris will have a problem with them, the feeling being one of incredulity, as in, 'how could you guys let it get this bad', and thus stomp around with a strong sense of superiority, provoking the original marines to ever more reckless - not to mention suicidal - feats in battle.

My Blood Ravens have intergrated Primaris Marines as they have forged a natural partnership with Gulliman's new crop of Historians

Templers, well yes they need all hands on deck. There's a mega crudade on.. We need to get on that stuff!

Space wolves yes. Hour of need.
They might not be perfectly wolfy but the chapters survival at stake.

I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

except Pedro KNEW THEY HAD IT, keeping some of the tithed geneseed for new foundings is how they've done it for ten thousand years

In regards to the topic's original question: Heresy!

My Marines would see as some sort of mistake, as the Astartes are clearly the purest and most powerful warriors of the Imperium. These so called "Primaris" are clearly imposters, or worse.



I actually do like the models, most of them anyway. Very imposing in terms of appearance.

Fluff wise, I would like to see a civil war break out within the Imperium, with Roboute leading one side, and the Administratum leading the other (all I could think of when Roboute came out was all the Imperial higher-ups who would react badly, realizing that their places in the upper echelons of Imperial society are at risk!)

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

except Pedro KNEW THEY HAD IT, keeping some of the tithed geneseed for new foundings is how they've done it for ten thousand years

He knew of the tithed gene-seed needed to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, but he didn't know that some reclusive Martian tech-mage was hoarding hidden, undocumented LEGIONS worth for <insert any reason here really, they all pale in comparison to replenishing an entire Second Founding chapter.> What if Guilliman wasn't revived? Not an abstract line of thinking, since he'd been dead for 10 000 fething years. He would have just kept "researching" for eternity while the Crimson Fists teetered on the brink. Tithed gene-seed is an understandable necessity, a colossal cache of stolen gene-seed is an exterminatus-level heresy. It was given to Cawl by Guilliman? Wrong primarch melon-fether. He was NEVER our "spiritual liege" and Dorn's genetics were NEVER his to give, least of all to some unknown data-spitting servo-abomination a millennia ago.

(Pedro sure does seem upset!)

Iron Mike wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

except Pedro KNEW THEY HAD IT, keeping some of the tithed geneseed for new foundings is how they've done it for ten thousand years

He knew of the tithed gene-seed needed to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, but he didn't know that some reclusive Martian tech-mage was hoarding hidden, undocumented LEGIONS worth for <insert any reason here really, they all pale in comparison to replenishing an entire Second Founding chapter.> What if Guilliman wasn't revived? Not an abstract line of thinking, since he'd been dead for 10 000 fething years. He would have just kept "researching" for eternity while the Crimson Fists teetered on the brink. Tithed gene-seed is an understandable necessity, a colossal cache of stolen gene-seed is an exterminatus-level heresy. It was given to Cawl by Guilliman? Wrong primarch melon-fether. He was NEVER our "spiritual liege" and Dorn's genetics were NEVER his to give, least of all to some unknown data-spitting servo-abomination a millennia ago.

(Pedro sure does seem upset!)

Actually he has every right to use that gene seed. Gulliman did not insistute this program as "Primarch of the Ultramarines" he did it as Lord Commander of the Imperium and heads of the Lords of Terra. as Such Gulliman is well within his rights to order gene seed produced for a new founding. prior to the Ultama founding there where 26 seperate space Marine foundings. all produced the same way, with limited numbers of geneseed being used to produce MORE geneseed.

But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

Dark Apostle Jerumiah of the Word Bearers initially scoffs at the claims of taller, faster, stronger Loyalist marines. Perhaps the whimsies of a Sorcerer with too much time gazing into the Warp...? However, after encountering them during a raid in Imperial territory, he must give pause. The Octed mentioned a son of the Anathema would rise and renew their hated enemies, but very little of the details. Too late does he realize what it meant for the doomed raid, and for his plans in the future.
He's about to order slaves to clean up the mess (he killed the Chaos Marine giving him the message in a fit of rage), when he pauses. His thoughts drift to the events of Horus's rebellion, to the scheming of Erebus to corrupt the Warmaster and the other Legions. How easy it was to show his naive cousins the truth, to push them against the False Emperor and his so-called plans for Humanity. These new "Primaris" Marines, as they are called, have greater capabilities than their predecessors, yes, but lack the experience. True, they've been versed in the "dangers" of Chaos. But was Horus not versed in the dangers of the Warp? Just how much do they truly know of the Primordial Truth? How much knowledge do the pure-bred brethren keep from the new stock of aberrants? How much trust is vested in them? Is there a way to erode said trust, and instead turn them to the Truth, perhaps swell his own Warband's numbers with reinforcements?
Jerumiah dabs his fingers in the pool of blood and reaches for skin parchment. From the ancient Colchisian runes, a plan forms. Slowly but surely, a malicious smile forms upon his face...

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

Holy gak some realism! Hell yeah this is brilliant.

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

It's less that the giving of geneseed is normal, it's the sitting on vast banks of it doing nothing but tinkering with it.

Marine Chapters know that they (often reluctantly) have to send geneseed to found new chapters. They don't know that it sits in a vault doing sweet FA for however long it takes to get founded (or, in this case, being chopped up and meddled with by an Arch-Heretic who thinks he can do better than the God-Emperor of Mankind). As far as they're aware, the rest of the Imperium is working full tilt just for survival just like they are. I'd sure as hell be angry if I was working flat out and I found out my boss was doing nothing but making towers of cards out of the reports I'd been giving them.

Now scale that up to a life-or-death total-war fight-for-survival scenario and they'd have every right to be angry.

Hmmm, how about this. You're a soldier. You're also a blacksmith. When you're not fighting, you spend your time making arms and armour as you're required to by law. If you don't, your superiors get very, very angry. You can't use these arms and armour for your own underequipped troops, it goes off to a central store to equip new regiments to fight in other important places. Then, you find out that the vast majority of your arms and armour actually gets stuck in a great vault doing absolutely nothing while your friends are dying because theirs is broken, missing or didn't exist in the first place. Or, rather, it's not just sitting there. It's actualyl there on the orders of some other blacksmith who spends his time taking it apart, changing a rivet or two and putting it back together, just to see whether it works better.

Yes there's an argument to be made that making your armour better would help you win the war, but from where you're standing there's someone who's hoarding all of the arms and armour you need to actually fight properly, and everyone you know and care about is dying because of it.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:
I'm not sure how the official lore will treat this, but (my) Pedro Kantor will be furious.

You've secretly had VII Legion gene-seed this whole fething time? You fully knew that almost every single one of our battle-brothers were lost. The Crimson Fists of the Second Founding, chosen by Dorn himself, were nearly eradicated.

While we stared into oblivion and feared (yes, feared) for the future of our entire chapter, you were buried in a fething forgeworld somewhere sitting on stockpiles of Dorn's blood. HERESY. You knew our loses yet withheld our birthright. HERESY. You tinkered and spliced with the most sacred relic to an Astartes, the gene-seed of their Primarch, hoping you could surpass the designs of the Emperor of Mankind. HERESY.

We don't want your fething gift. They weren't born around Rynn's World. They didn't pass our trials. They haven't plunged their left gauntlet. They weren't bleeding on the walls, they weren't hewn at the gates, and they can't recite the Oath of Rynn. Everyone involved with this betrayal of our chapter will be put to the fist, and unless every last VII Legion gland is returned to the rightful Sons of Dorn, even Guilliman himself may suddenly feel quite sleepy again...

(That's my take on Pedro's response!)

except Pedro KNEW THEY HAD IT, keeping some of the tithed geneseed for new foundings is how they've done it for ten thousand years

He knew of the tithed gene-seed needed to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole, but he didn't know that some reclusive Martian tech-mage was hoarding hidden, undocumented LEGIONS worth for <insert any reason here really, they all pale in comparison to replenishing an entire Second Founding chapter.> What if Guilliman wasn't revived? Not an abstract line of thinking, since he'd been dead for 10 000 fething years. He would have just kept "researching" for eternity while the Crimson Fists teetered on the brink. Tithed gene-seed is an understandable necessity, a colossal cache of stolen gene-seed is an exterminatus-level heresy. It was given to Cawl by Guilliman? Wrong primarch melon-fether. He was NEVER our "spiritual liege" and Dorn's genetics were NEVER his to give, least of all to some unknown data-spitting servo-abomination a millennia ago.

(Pedro sure does seem upset!)

Actually he has every right to use that gene seed. Gulliman did not insistute this program as "Primarch of the Ultramarines" he did it as Lord Commander of the Imperium and heads of the Lords of Terra. as Such Gulliman is well within his rights to order gene seed produced for a new founding. prior to the Ultama founding there where 26 seperate space Marine foundings. all produced the same way, with limited numbers of geneseed being used to produce MORE geneseed.

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

This load of rubbish will never see my tabletop

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But that doesn't mean the non-ultramarine chapters will see it that way. Nor do they have to. Them being offended and angered by this is WELL within the nature of 40k's setting.

except as I said being pissed off over this is reidculcas given that using geneseed to create new space marine foundings is....... pretty normal.

It's less that the giving of geneseed is normal, it's the sitting on vast banks of it doing nothing but tinkering with it.

Marine Chapters know that they (often reluctantly) have to send geneseed to found new chapters. They don't know that it sits in a vault doing sweet FA for however long it takes to get founded (or, in this case, being chopped up and meddled with by an Arch-Heretic who thinks he can do better than the God-Emperor of Mankind). As far as they're aware, the rest of the Imperium is working full tilt just for survival just like they are. I'd sure as hell be angry if I was working flat out and I found out my boss was doing nothing but making towers of cards out of the reports I'd been giving them.

Now scale that up to a life-or-death total-war fight-for-survival scenario and they'd have every right to be angry.

Hmmm, how about this. You're a soldier. You're also a blacksmith. When you're not fighting, you spend your time making arms and armour as you're required to by law. If you don't, your superiors get very, very angry. You can't use these arms and armour for your own underequipped troops, it goes off to a central store to equip new regiments to fight in other important places. Then, you find out that the vast majority of your arms and armour actually gets stuck in a great vault doing absolutely nothing while your friends are dying because theirs is broken, missing or didn't exist in the first place. Or, rather, it's not just sitting there. It's actualyl there on the orders of some other blacksmith who spends his time taking it apart, changing a rivet or two and putting it back together, just to see whether it works better.

Yes there's an argument to be made that making your armour better would help you win the war, but from where you're standing there's someone who's hoarding all of the arms and armour you need to actually fight properly, and everyone you know and care about is dying because of it.

Great analogy. Tithed gene-seed is recognized and honoured by each chapter because they know it is meant as a fail-safe to ensure the future of the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. Your uncle secretly taking your inheritance after your dad died and giving it to his accountant to keep until he gets off on parole, then giving you a piece when he comes home, however, is HERESY.

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

We'll aim for the knees, try to get some live specimens for Fabius Bile.

 lindsay40k wrote:
We'll aim for the knees, try to get some live specimens for Fabius Bile.

Haha perfect

Send down some of the astartes grade sleep darts and make sure to warm up the hypno indoctrination gear we've got a long day ahead of us and if the rumors are true they won't stay asleep for as long as the others hydra dominatus brother....- intercepted messages from alpha legion strike squad head 6 to strike cruiser serpents venom......



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You actually make a good point. Why wouldn't you just mass clone the Smurfmaster, or the SpAzzEmprah for that matter? Or even better dig up the best naval officers and Solar Macharius and go to town? We know they have the cloning technology ( remember the Imperial Guard clone troops?)

They actually, before all this primaris stuff tried to clone the imperiums greatest human heroes and make an imperial guard regiment out of them, but they turned out pretty average, aside from the copious amounts of bad luck they were cursed with, like the cursed founding but for imperial guard.

 Melissia wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

you approval of people being factually incorrect? Gulliman was Lord Commander of the Imperium and head of the Lords of Terra following the Battle of Terra. a fact that's pretty well known.

And?

I think the idea that everyone would just bow to robooty's whims and be happy joyous dancing time at everything he does is ridiculous. This is 40k. This is the Imperium. The Imperium fights itself almost half as much as it fights everyone else.

 Melissia wrote:
And?

I think the idea that everyone would just bow to robooty's whims and be happy joyous dancing time at everything he does is ridiculous. This is 40k. This is the Imperium. The Imperium fights itself almost half as much as it fights everyone else.

While it is true that not everyone liked or agreed with Lord Commander Girlyman, it is also true that no matter how much they disagreed, they always obeyed him in the end. Even Dorn and Russ bowed down to Guilliman in the end (after almost causing a second civil war, but still). In the present day of 40k, I see it being much the same. The Imperium has loads of internal strife and conflict, but no one wants a full-on civil war. That is why in the end Guilliman always gets his way.


Also, I can definitely see people like Kantor and other leaders of chapters that suffered heavily being very, very angry at Cawl and Guilliman having kept all this geneseed a secret. Simultaneously however, I can imagine the anger would be soothed a lot by all of the new stuff and reinforcements they are now getting as a result. I imagine Kantor feeling very conflicted over this (please GW write something about this it is awesome novel material).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Ah, but when he DID order the program 10 000 years ago, at the time he was in fact just "Primarch of the Ultramarines." He split the Legions so no one person could hold the power and clout that Horus did, but then he gets revived and names himself "Lord Commander (Warmaster?..) of the Imperium" and has an entire legion at his disposal. The ends do not justify the means. At the time he procured the gene-seed of his brothers and gave them to that Martian, he completely overstepped himself. Again, he never was, and never will be, our primarch.

Knock out!

As a Blood Angels player, I approve.

Sanguinius died for your sins, Robby G. Don't you ever fething forget that. Even upon His throne, the Emperor favors his fabulous fething hawkboy for a reason.

you approval of people being factually incorrect? Gulliman was Lord Commander of the Imperium and head of the Lords of Terra following the Battle of Terra. a fact that's pretty well known.

Of course he was pivotal in securing the safety of the Imperium after the Heresy, and the Astartes are supposed to be granted autonomy to do as they see fit for the good of the Imperium, but not from each other. "High Lord" Guilliman was a rallying point and leader for the non-Astartes Imperium, but to the Astartes he was just a still-living Primarch marshalling the frightened masses. Were his intentions noble? Absolutely, no one could dispute that, and he should be commended for taking on that burden. He was always the best suited of the Primarchs to lead all of humanity. But humanity and his "nephew" Astartes are two completely different things. The death of a primarch does not leave his sons up for adoption to just be commanded by one still breathing. Had he actually been at the Siege, perhaps there'd have been a few more still-living Primarchs. But he wasn't, and there weren't. Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium; Rogal Dorn and his sons are not the Imperium. They of course took instruction from the primarch best suited for the situation, but that NEVER gave Guilliman the right to no longer need answer his brother primarchs. Brothers, commrades, allies, even friends; never "lord" and "subject." Ever. And even though some non-Battle-Brothers sitting in a room on Terra waggled their chins and gave him a shiny new title to steer the teeming masses of humans, Roboute, the Primarch of the Not-Sons-of-Dorn, should never have hidden such an important thing like the Primaris project from his fellow Astartes. For him to think he didn't need to tell them, is betrayal.


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And I don't mean to sound rude, I just love talking about this stuff I play Crimson Fists, btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Also, I can definitely see people like Kantor and other leaders of chapters that suffered heavily being very, very angry at Cawl and Guilliman having kept all this geneseed a secret. Simultaneously however, I can imagine the anger would be soothed a lot by all of the new stuff and reinforcements they are now getting as a result. I imagine Kantor feeling very conflicted over this (please GW write something about this it is awesome novel material).

Pedro may also demand answers from the Inquisition, for whom the Crimson Fists have long been a voluntary sword for. Either they knew and were hiding it from him, or they didn't know and are incompetent.

If it's the former, and were still gladly accepting Crimson Fists to the Deathwatch even though they knew his chapter was crippled but he felt honour-bound to help, perhaps he just demands the Deathwatch, period. If it's the latter, then the most distasteful act in his chapter's history (the eradication of the Marines Vigilant) was done at the behest of some paranoid, detached, fanatical bureaucrats that will sign anything to keep their positions and have no idea what's actually going on.

Especially if the Inquisition claims they didn't know, but still just allows the Primaris thing to slide. Pedro himself may have a few questions to those whom normally only ever ask them...