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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
So, I may be acquiring a pair of Imperial Knights this weekend, to complement my Astra Militarum and various Space Marine armies.
Not even fielded one before, so, with the new 8th rules, what would be the ideal weaponry for them?
Note that, whilst I'm only getting two right now, I may pick up a third later, and that the pair are the standard Errant/Paladin Knights. However, I could easily get my hands on the Warden upgrade sprue if Paladin/Errant Knights aren't very good.
So, what to do with Knights?
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Post by: momerathe
Personally, I'd get the upgrade sprue just for the carapace weapons. With such an expensive/survivable platform to mount them on, it seems a shame not to use them.
That said, I did a bit of mathhammer on the weapons:
The Avenger is best all-round, IMO. The RFBC has the range and is strong against T7, but that's a narrow niche. The Inferno cannon is good against heavy vehicles, and is non-trivially cheaper than the other two.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Sgt_Smudge wrote:So, I may be acquiring a pair of Imperial Knights this weekend, to complement my Astra Militarum and various Space Marine armies.
Not even fielded one before, so, with the new 8th rules, what would be the ideal weaponry for them?
Note that, whilst I'm only getting two right now, I may pick up a third later, and that the pair are the standard Errant/Paladin Knights. However, I could easily get my hands on the Warden upgrade sprue if Paladin/Errant Knights aren't very good.
So, what to do with Knights?
Crusader!
Skip the hull Meltagun. Opt for the missiles on top. Expensive, but deadly.
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Post by: labmouse42
Is the sword worth getting, or double avenger the way to roll?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
I think the guns just do it better. The Feet will help thin the expected hordes if need be. That you can fall back and shoot seems to make the CCWs not that useful.
Also, no double Avenger for Loyalists. And honestly, that is really pricey anyhow. I think having a Thermal is nice to popping armor - though that may be list dependent.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
So, are the melee weapons always invalid? Is Crusader the only Knight worth taking?
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Post by: momerathe
I think melee's worth it. It's by some margin the best way of killing tanks/MCs knights have.
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Post by: minionboy
Sgt_Smudge wrote:So, are the melee weapons always invalid? Is Crusader the only Knight worth taking?
It's also the most expensive knight. If you look at the points, a Crusader with RFBC and Avenger is almost 30 points more than a Knight Warden with a Stormspear missile pod, and can still swing a sword in melee should you find yourself against something tough.
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Post by: Gendo
May I jump in
About to get either Paladin or Errant with a carapace weapon to go with my Black Templars army.
Is the Knight able to carry most of my heavy hitting needs? Considering I have a Twin Las Predator and some heavies in my squads and transport, which load out would give me the most synergy?
Edit: To fit a 2K list.
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Post by: RogueApiary
If you don't mind my asking, where can one easily get a Warden upgrade sprue? The only ones I've found have been on E-bay for 35-45 bucks and GW won't sell the sprue separately.
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Post by: MrPyro
Gendo wrote:May I jump in
About to get either Paladin or Errant with a carapace weapon to go with my Black Templars army.
Is the Knight able to carry most of my heavy hitting needs? Considering I have a Twin Las Predator and some heavies in my squads and transport, which load out would give me the most synergy?
Edit: To fit a 2K list.
The Avenger and Thermal can synergise pretty well for range reasons, you can let loose a very deadly arsenal that can threaten anything within firing range. I find that when bringing the battle-cannon, your avenger will often want to be hanging back and sniping targets, so the Ironstorm missiles aren't bad. If you prefer a melee option then the Avenger pairs nicely with your gauntlet/reaper, melee being great at popping vehicles, you don't really need to use either cannon options anyway. Ignore the carapace melta-gun, too expensive to justify now a-days.
It depends on what your list is lacking, though overall, equipment that spits a lot of dice rolls is a good use of the Knight's 3+ to hit.
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Post by: Gendo
MrPyro wrote: Gendo wrote:May I jump in
About to get either Paladin or Errant with a carapace weapon to go with my Black Templars army.
Is the Knight able to carry most of my heavy hitting needs? Considering I have a Twin Las Predator and some heavies in my squads and transport, which load out would give me the most synergy?
Edit: To fit a 2K list.
The Avenger and Thermal can synergise pretty well for range reasons, you can let loose a very deadly arsenal that can threaten anything within firing range. I find that when bringing the battle-cannon, your avenger will often want to be hanging back and sniping targets, so the Ironstorm missiles aren't bad. If you prefer a melee option then the Avenger pairs nicely with your gauntlet/reaper, melee being great at popping vehicles, you don't really need to use either cannon options anyway. Ignore the carapace melta-gun, too expensive to justify now a-days.
It depends on what your list is lacking, though overall, equipment that spits a lot of dice rolls is a good use of the Knight's 3+ to hit.
Thought about a Knight Crusader initially as a sitback fire platform but the mobility of the Knight paired with Chainsword and Feet seems pretty good!
The Avenger looks like hurt across the board, so probably will build a Warden, black and gold with white shoulder pads obviously
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Post by: MrPyro
I too find it's at it's best when it's drawing as much attention to it as possible, even better since it can no longer be threatened with a tarpit, a melee knight can smash everything it touches and in the event it goes down, may end up taking it's attackers with it when it explodes.
The Warden is by far the most versatile option. so much pain on so many levels!
The Crusader is still a great fire platform but one could argue you could get the same results cheaper elsewhere.
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Post by: Crazyterran
Two Crusaders with RBCs and 2 Paladins is a lot of firepower. Get two gatling guns, 8d6 battlecannon shots, plus stubbers i guess. Use your feet to step on Hordes and the big guns to blow away bigger things.
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Post by: MarkyMark
Has anyone looked at the FW knights yet? we havent got the imperial ones yet but the Chaos ones should give a good idea
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Post by: PUFNSTUF
MarkyMark wrote:Has anyone looked at the FW knights yet? we havent got the imperial ones yet but the Chaos ones should give a good idea
yes and they should be identical. Not really sure what to make of them so far. I feel they were toned down a bit from the past versions.
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Post by: Gibs55
Can someone explain to me how to best use these Imperial Knights. The models are so cool however very expensive and I hard to know if it is worth dropping money on them.
How do you build a balanced list around these things? Who do they work well with or do you just run 5 and call it a day?
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Post by: Gendo
MrPyro wrote:I too find it's at it's best when it's drawing as much attention to it as possible, even better since it can no longer be threatened with a tarpit, a melee knight can smash everything it touches and in the event it goes down, may end up taking it's attackers with it when it explodes.
The Warden is by far the most versatile option. so much pain on so many levels!
The Crusader is still a great fire platform but one could argue you could get the same results cheaper elsewhere.
Already changed my mind haha, didn't know damage affects only one model.
As i have some Assault Cannons and mostly CC Crusaders and need taking care of big stuff I think i'll go with the Thermal Cannon which has the added flexibility of becoming HeavyD6 when targeting 5+ models with extra Damage up close.
Still not sure about the Pod, going double on the heavy damage or an Ironstorm to soften up targets for my CC Crusaders even behind cover.
For a mid field Shoot+Charge seems awesome! Automatically Appended Next Post: Gibs55 wrote:Can someone explain to me how to best use these Imperial Knights. The models are so cool however very expensive and I hard to know if it is worth dropping money on them.
How do you build a balanced list around these things? Who do they work well with or do you just run 5 and call it a day?
How many points do you play? A single Knight could cost you 600pts.
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Post by: Gibs55
Gendo wrote:MrPyro wrote:I too find it's at it's best when it's drawing as much attention to it as possible, even better since it can no longer be threatened with a tarpit, a melee knight can smash everything it touches and in the event it goes down, may end up taking it's attackers with it when it explodes.
The Warden is by far the most versatile option. so much pain on so many levels!
The Crusader is still a great fire platform but one could argue you could get the same results cheaper elsewhere.
Already changed my mind haha, didn't know damage affects only one model.
As i have some Assault Cannons and mostly CC Crusaders and need taking care of big stuff I think i'll go with the Thermal Cannon which has the added flexibility of becoming HeavyD6 when targeting 5+ models with extra Damage up close.
Still not sure about the Pod, going double on the heavy damage or an Ironstorm to soften up targets for my CC Crusaders even behind cover.
For a mid field Shoot+Charge seems awesome!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gibs55 wrote:Can someone explain to me how to best use these Imperial Knights. The models are so cool however very expensive and I hard to know if it is worth dropping money on them.
How do you build a balanced list around these things? Who do they work well with or do you just run 5 and call it a day?
How many points do you play? A single Knight could cost you 600pts.
I am in the process of starting a new army and limited experience with 40k (play mainly AOS/Fantasy). I purchased Imperium 1 and 2, now giving myself another week to learn and think before dropping a decent amount of money on an army. To answer your question I will be playing up to 2k points or whatever the competitive scene decides on I guess.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
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Post by: Gendo
I'd rather start with deciding which Army you want to play and then how to fit a Knight in it.
I think for the points it's not an expensive model, two LRC tanks cost about the same points/money wise.
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Post by: argonak
em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
I haven't played the last few editions, but I recall reading that an all knight army was considered rather unfun for your opponent previously. Which I was always a little sad about because I've got a bit of a thing for big illogical battlemech style scifi. Has 8th edition effectively eliminated that problem, so that I won't get dirty looks if I play knights?
I'd kind of like to have a knight heavy force with a militarum tempestus support detachment. Already got the starter set for scions shipping to me right now. But I was worried it'd be considered unfair and was thinking maybe a baneblade would be more appropriate.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
argonak wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
I haven't played the last few editions, but I recall reading that an all knight army was considered rather unfun for your opponent previously. Which I was always a little sad about because I've got a bit of a thing for big illogical battlemech style scifi. Has 8th edition effectively eliminated that problem, so that I won't get dirty looks if I play knights?
I'd kind of like to have a knight heavy force with a militarum tempestus support detachment. Already got the starter set for scions shipping to me right now. But I was worried it'd be considered unfair and was thinking maybe a baneblade would be more appropriate.
I think it has. No army is defenseless against them anymore. They also got toned down overall, too. Price going up means only 4 at 2000pt, not 5, too. If anyone complains, remind them that even a lasgun can hurt a Knight!
And run what you want. Nothing is "unfair" as 8th is hot off the presses and the first edition that was heavily balanced, from what I can tell (external playtesting, outside of the UK, etc). Give it a go with the MT and a Knight. I doubt anyone will complain.
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Post by: stratigo
em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
You'll goomba stomp anyone not rocking tournament ready lists.
And subsequently find yourself with few people willing to play you
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
How about this as a trio of Knights:
Knight Paladin, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Missiles
Knight Errant, Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Knight Crusader with Gatling Cannon and Thermal Cannon
That leaves one Knight as a close-up assault one, one as versatile firepower, and one as longer ranged cover - works?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
stratigo wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
You'll goomba stomp anyone not rocking tournament ready lists.
And subsequently find yourself with few people willing to play you
I find that a highly dubious statement, since 8th only just officially released and appears to be a move towards balance. Given the preponderance of anti-tank that can mostly negate this things save and force it into a 5++, it isn't nearly so unstoppable as it was in prior editions.
There are a load of answers that even a casual list will run, especially with the shift in Heavy weapons to the -1 penalty. I see so many Lascannon Dev Squads now, its crazy.
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Post by: momerathe
Personally, I think a Knight army will always need some ground support for objective capping, mop-up and such. Guard are perfect for the job, IMO; just fluff them as your knight household's family retainers.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:There are a load of answers that even a casual list will run, especially with the shift in Heavy weapons to the -1 penalty. I see so many Lascannon Dev Squads now, its crazy.
it takes ~23 BS3+ lascannon shots to take out a knight. Whether you consider that a little or a lot is up to you
One thing we haven't talked a lot about is carapace weapons. I think the Stormspear is pretty much an auto-take on every knight. Sure, it's the most expensive of the three options, but for comparison it's three krak missiles at a cost less than an IG heavy weapons team. Running the numbers, it's better vs. hordes than the ironstorm, and knocks more wounds of flyers than the icarus autocannon!
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
momerathe wrote:Personally, I think a Knight army will always need some ground support for objective capping, mop-up and such. Guard are perfect for the job, IMO; just fluff them as your knight household's family retainers.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:There are a load of answers that even a casual list will run, especially with the shift in Heavy weapons to the -1 penalty. I see so many Lascannon Dev Squads now, its crazy.
it takes ~23 BS3+ lascannon shots to take out a knight. Whether you consider that a little or a lot is up to you
One thing we haven't talked a lot about is carapace weapons. I think the Stormspear is pretty much an auto-take on every knight. Sure, it's the most expensive of the three options, but for comparison it's three krak missiles at a cost less than an IG heavy weapons team. Running the numbers, it's better vs. hordes than the ironstorm, and knocks more wounds of flyers than the icarus autocannon!
Knights can capture objectives... provided there is nothing left alive to contest it.
And Guard? No, sir. Skitarii are the most fluffy!
And 23 BS3+ Lascannons aren't hard to find for Guard. Other armies have many other tools, as well. And they start to diminish at half wounds too, so once you make a deep enough dent, they go downhill.
Also, I am not so sure about the Stormspear. The Ironstorm seems more and more like the obvious choice. Shooting out of LoS, decent damage and only 37% of the cost of the Stormspear. Seems like a strong option if you just need more firepower to help thin hordes. Icarus seems less useful now that hitting flyers isn't near impossible anymore.
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Post by: Silent_Tempest
em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
That's a misconception. Sure a lasgun could wound a Knight. But wounding and killing are not the same thing. A knight has 24 wounds. Lasguns aren't going to be killing knights anytime soon. Lasguns and other similar common troop weapons are useless against knights because they have no save modifier, do only one wound, and in every case outside of Tau pulse rifles, need 6's to wound.
Just looking at the number of wounds and the knight's saves:
24 Wounds with a +3 save means you'll need to do about 72 wounds to a knight to kill it. 72.
So yeah in short unless we're playing for money (aka in a Tournament) I'm not playing your 4 knight army.
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Post by: Mandragola
Yeah I agree that it looks as if knights will be seriously difficult to get rid of. It doesn't help that they have pretty serious firepower and will usually have first turn.
Things like lascannon predators will get shot up before they can do much. Tau commanders and similar drop assault guys might be able to do a bit of damage - but will almost certainly die when the knight takes revenge.
In terms of building a knight list I think it makes sense to run 3 of them at 2k. That gives you 3 cps and leaves something like 650 points for another detachment of some kind.
That detachment needs to do the things the knights aren't good at. Hold objectives and score maelstrom - and get the relic. I'm not too sure what the best way to do this is yet or which kind of detachment you'd be best with. You want to avoid taking so many units that you lose first turn sometimes, so transports are probably a good option.
A sisters of battle fast attach detachment, maybe with Celestine as your warlord, could be good. Seraphim are great for maelstrom and you get some efficient units to hold your own deployment zone objectives too.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Silent_Tempest wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
That's a misconception. Sure a lasgun could wound a Knight. But wounding and killing are not the same thing. A knight has 24 wounds. Lasguns aren't going to be killing knights anytime soon. Lasguns and other similar common troop weapons are useless against knights because they have no save modifier, do only one wound, and in every case outside of Tau pulse rifles, need 6's to wound.
Just looking at the number of wounds and the knight's saves:
24 Wounds with a +3 save means you'll need to do about 72 wounds to a knight to kill it. 72.
So yeah in short unless we're playing for money (aka in a Tournament) I'm not playing your 4 knight army.
You are ignoring so many things to make your point.
Lasguns won't likely kill a Knight, no. But compared to before, when they had zero chance, that is a positive. They can hurt it. And it will never just be lasguns against a Knight, so that sort of example is disingenuous.
And a 3+ save isn't a 3+ save anymore. Just as often it will be their 5++, which is a big drop in effectiveness. Sure, a Lasgun has no AP and does 1 wound, but that isn't all the weapons an army has. Autocannons can hurt. Heavy Bolters can hurt. They aren't ideal, but they can. There is no strict "This can't hurt my Knight because AV" anymore.
And if you flat out refuse to play someone with 4 Knights, I find that a bit sad. A TAC list may have an uphill battle, but it isn't like you don't have tools - or should, at least. You can always win on mission, after all. Those Guard squads might not make a dent in a Knight, but you will likely take that objective by having a lot more models present than the single Knight.
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Post by: Mandragola
The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.
It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.
Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.
Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.
Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Mandragola wrote:The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.
It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.
Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.
Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.
Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.
I still don't see the issue. They are not impervious to a whole class of weaponry now. They are a VERY low model count army, so objective games will be a challenge. They diminish as they get hurt and while the shield is 360 now, it is only a 5++. Plus, all the more anti-tank oriented stuff does more than 1 point of damage, too.
They also went up around 100+ point each, depending. You can do 4 comfortably where 5 was doable before. I think they are perfectly suitable and most all-comers armies should be able to not get rolled by them.
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Post by: RegulusBlack
LasCannons arent going to hurt you as much as Plasma Scions, (Guard cant spam 3+ LasCannons, only 4+ HWT's and with rerolls they only get a 58% chance to hit per) Plasma scions are dropping 3.56 wds per 64 points on a knight, and I only need to do 12 wds to reduce a knights effectiveness tremendously.
That being said, i think Knights are a tough matchup to anything that cant spam Mortal wds. Good to great shooting, good to great resiliency....
tough nut to crack
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
.
As I would hope a 500+ point model would be.
And given the weakness to some things, such as the Scions, you won't see full-Knight armies that often. Bubble-wrap is essential. So anyone who does go out with four Knights is actually giving themselves a bit of a disadvantage.
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Post by: RegulusBlack
yeah my tactic would be (as a guard conscript player) to play the mission (Knights by themselves are woefully ill prepared to contest an objective) even with happy feet your only removing 7 (8 after Commisar plugs Guardsman Bob) models that's...ok, now coupled with their shooting should make a bigger dent but you get the idea
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Post by: PUFNSTUF
Scions deepstriking or in taurox are a good filler. Can have 3 taurox primes with dakka loadout, a tempestor prime as hq and 4 squads in 650 or so. I got a three knight list with guillimon and 3 Scion command squads with tempestor in a 2k list. So it's easily doable without guil.
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Post by: Silent_Tempest
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Silent_Tempest wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.
That's a misconception. Sure a lasgun could wound a Knight. But wounding and killing are not the same thing. A knight has 24 wounds. Lasguns aren't going to be killing knights anytime soon. Lasguns and other similar common troop weapons are useless against knights because they have no save modifier, do only one wound, and in every case outside of Tau pulse rifles, need 6's to wound.
Just looking at the number of wounds and the knight's saves:
24 Wounds with a +3 save means you'll need to do about 72 wounds to a knight to kill it. 72.
So yeah in short unless we're playing for money (aka in a Tournament) I'm not playing your 4 knight army.
You are ignoring so many things to make your point.
Lasguns won't likely kill a Knight, no. But compared to before, when they had zero chance, that is a positive. They can hurt it. And it will never just be lasguns against a Knight, so that sort of example is disingenuous.
And a 3+ save isn't a 3+ save anymore. Just as often it will be their 5++, which is a big drop in effectiveness. Sure, a Lasgun has no AP and does 1 wound, but that isn't all the weapons an army has. Autocannons can hurt. Heavy Bolters can hurt. They aren't ideal, but they can. There is no strict "This can't hurt my Knight because AV" anymore.
And if you flat out refuse to play someone with 4 Knights, I find that a bit sad. A TAC list may have an uphill battle, but it isn't like you don't have tools - or should, at least. You can always win on mission, after all. Those Guard squads might not make a dent in a Knight, but you will likely take that objective by having a lot more models present than the single Knight.
Are you saying that you wouldn't kill your opponents units that are effective at killing knights? There's no way a lascannon dev is going to be around to shot at a knight unless I have an entire army of lascannon dev squads which isn't going to happen in a take all comers list. Other heavy weapons can do some wounds a knight sure. They're not going to do 24 wounds. 4 knights have 96 wounds at T8 with a 3+ as well as a 5++ from shooting. They get to go first 70% of the time. (The other 30% of the time you get seized on.)
It's hard for a single knight model to take an objective that's been bubble wrapped by multiple infantry squads sure. It's not hard for a knight to take an objective in the middle of the table. Their bases are so large they can just stand between the objective and any enemy models and prevent them from getting close enough.
An all knight army is going to be dam effective against most other armies in the game. You'll have some bad match-ups. I don't think 8th edition has done anything to reduce 40K's rock/paper/scissor problem.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Silent_Tempest wrote:
Are you saying that you wouldn't kill your opponents units that are effective at killing knights? There's no way a lascannon dev is going to be around to shot at a knight unless I have an entire army of lascannon dev squads which isn't going to happen in a take all comers list. Other heavy weapons can do some wounds a knight sure. They're not going to do 24 wounds. 4 knights have 96 wounds at T8 with a 3+ as well as a 5++ from shooting. They get to go first 70% of the time. (The other 30% of the time you get seized on.)
It's hard for a single knight model to take an objective that's been bubble wrapped by multiple infantry squads sure. It's not hard for a knight to take an objective in the middle of the table. Their bases are so large they can just stand between the objective and any enemy models and prevent them from getting close enough.
An all knight army is going to be dam effective against most other armies in the game. You'll have some bad match-ups. I don't think 8th edition has done anything to reduce 40K's rock/paper/scissor problem.
At some point, it basically comes down to actually rolling dice. Theoryhammer only goes so far. Knights are not unkillable. Mortal wounds are a thing and high AP weapons and high damage weapons are a thing. And as a Knight player I have to prioritize those, but if I can't stop them fast enough? Or they get around my strategy/tactics? Again, theoryhammer isn't the end-all.
And as for a bubble-wrapped Knight, well there you go. That means they aren't running a full Knight army. One less at least and opens up other TAC to doing more, as they will not be relegated to shooting just Knights hoping for pure luck to work.
And I don't think an all Knight army is going to do much. Objectives will kill them. They are one model. A squad of just two models takes an objective away from a Knight. Plus, hordes are an issue and those got a major boost in 8th.
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Post by: labmouse42
em_en_oh_pee wrote:And given the weakness to some things, such as the Scions, you won't see full-Knight armies that often. Bubble-wrap is essential. So anyone who does go out with four Knights is actually giving themselves a bit of a disadvantage.
This is why I'm looking at this for 3 knights
My goal is to use the 21 nurglings to act as screening, objective takers, and harassment for my knights. If there are no deep strikers to worry about, they can be used to harras units like Havocs. As each unit has 28 wounds, a 5++, plus DR, they are surprisingly annoying to get rid of. With a herald nearby, they also have 28 STR 3 attacks -- which makes a bigger bite than most people expect.
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Post by: Fueli
I played against an army of 4 renegade knights and some cultists and a sorcerer. Fusion blasters work wonders against them, as did Longstrike. They took surprisingly many wounds from pulse rifles too.
I didn't kill anything before my turn 3. I just put them to low wound count and they weren't a threat anymore, hitting on 5+ and moving 6". They do have some great firepower though, and they are really great in melee.
I feel like 4 knights in a list was way too many. I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.
My list was roughly:
Longstrike
Fireblade
Commander w/ 4x Fusion
Crisis suits with plasma, 6 gun drones
Hammerhead
Railrifle Broadside
30 FW
5 PF
3 Stealth suits
2 Ghostkeels
1943
Post by: labmouse42
Fueli wrote:I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.
Or 84 wounds worth of nurglings that started 9" from your deployment zone..
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Post by: Mandragola
labmouse42 wrote: Fueli wrote:I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.
Or 84 wounds worth of nurglings that started 9" from your deployment zone..
As a tau player? Not really. Tau have their own screening units, plus a gun or two.
I think 3 knights with some objective grabbers/holders probably make more sense than 4. The worst thing for knights is having to camp your own backfield.
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Post by: Neophyte2012
Mandragola wrote:The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.
It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.
Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.
Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.
Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.
Maybe consider a Vortex Missile Battery? Every shot is D6 Shots, and any hit is D6 mortal wounds, just have someone with BS 2+ in there and you have a Knight killer.
and remember bubblewarp the Bastion with Conscripts
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
To my knowledge, models in fortifications don't confer their BS.
105776
Post by: PUFNSTUF
So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.
35690
Post by: minionboy
PUFNSTUF wrote:So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.
Castigator seems like a Warden +1 so will get used, Lancer is a Gallant +1, so is still on the bench...
Acheron is interesting and I'll give it a shot for sure, and the Atrapos seems like the ultimate armor-killer. The Magaera is still sad face for another edition, and the Styrix does seem a little more interesting, but not sure it's better than a similarly priced Paladin... If you can find a way to get the Styrix +1 to hit, then you may be in business.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Vulkite seems better than the RFBC to me. Less random.
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Post by: stratigo
So, after a few games with a 3 knight army, they aren't as terrifying as you'd fear. They DO put out a scary amount of firepower, but they are actually rather vulnerable to return fire and being charged by big smacking melee units.
Bobby G did something like 30 wounds over all to 3 knights in a 2500 point game.
On the knight's side, they generaly want to stay the feth away because they don't get an invul in melee, and their shooting is usually better than their melee.
112989
Post by: momerathe
minionboy wrote:PUFNSTUF wrote:So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.
Castigator seems like a Warden +1 so will get used, Lancer is a Gallant +1, so is still on the bench...
The 4++ in melee on the Lancer makes a really big difference, I think. It's reasonably priced, too. Of course, if I wanted to tear up other super-heavies in melee then the Atropos knocks it into a cocked hat, which gives me a sad.
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Post by: plagueknight
What's people's opinions on the Knight Styrix are they any good?
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Post by: CreedEternal
Mandragola wrote:
A sisters of battle fast attach detachment, maybe with Celestine as your warlord, could be good. Seraphim are great for maelstrom and you get some efficient units to hold your own deployment zone objectives too.
Always kinda fancied a sisters force with knights archeron, castigator and errant for the Holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melt a just wasn't sure what to field for the sisters.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
So would a Knight Paladin be at all a decent option for a Knight build? No melee upgrade beyond the Reaper Chainsword, of course.
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Post by: momerathe
Sgt_Smudge wrote:So would a Knight Paladin be at all a decent option for a Knight build? No melee upgrade beyond the Reaper Chainsword, of course.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the Paladin. It's not as good an all-rounder as the Warden, and it's not as good a heavy armour specialist as the Errant. The gun has a six foot range, but the chainsword wants to be up close.
Having said that, it's really a matter of fractions . None of the Knights are bad (except maybe the Gallant in this edition), and it is good vs. T7 vehicles like rhinos etc. so if you end up fighting a lot of those if could be a good choice.
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Post by: Martel732
I like the Warden and Errant better as well. I really like the Errant in 8th.
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Post by: Audustum
The Paladin is good if you want a long range, melee hybrid. That's really it I think. So if you want to shoot the backfield while guarding your own backfield from deep strike assault.
112928
Post by: Gibs55
How would you load out the Castigator?
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Post by: minionboy
There are precisely 0 options for a Castigator, so run it stock, lol.
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Post by: Trickstick
minionboy wrote:
There are precisely 0 options for a Castigator, so run it stock, lol.
Well, technically you have the option to choose the <household>.
(-:
34328
Post by: l0k1
So I've got a Imperial Knights box set I'm ready to dust off and start building (for chaos). I'll probably magnetize them, but what is a decent load out for traitor knights? Sword/Fist and Avenger, Sword/Fist Thermal Cannon? Sword/Fist RFBC?
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Post by: Audustum
I think double-avenger is probably the best loadout unless you wanna throw down against other Knights. Then you'd want a sword or a glove in place of one of the guns.
23
Post by: djones520
We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?
I am thinking about just running one renegade knight with a heavy fire power loadout (missile pod, double battle cannon or double avenger gratling) and have that be all of my heavy support heavy duty fire.
Will that be enough against the typical heavy support we will face these days? Let's say such a knight faces three lascannon devastator squads (12 lascannons). Will it come out ok?
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Post by: stratigo
djones520 wrote:We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
It is very possible to take out this list.
But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.
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Post by: momerathe
Eldenfirefly wrote:How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?
I am thinking about just running one renegade knight with a heavy fire power loadout (missile pod, double battle cannon or double avenger gratling) and have that be all of my heavy support heavy duty fire.
Will that be enough against the typical heavy support we will face these days? Let's say such a knight faces three lascannon devastator squads (12 lascannons). Will it come out ok?
Assuming a flat, featureless plan..
It takes on average 23 BS3+ lascannon shots to kill a knight. Conversely, a double-avenger+stormspear will kill ~8 marines in a turn of shooting. To win, the devs need to a) go first and b) have extra bodies in each squad so that the knight can only delete one squad per turn. Of course, if the knight can charge, it's all over.
Saying that, that's 6-700 points of devastators. For the same price, the marine player could have three las-preds, and while the abovementioned knight could kill a predator a turn, it's a much dicier proposition.
After all this, though, equal points of dedicated anti-tank firepower should be able to kill a knight, otherwise they'd be pretty much unbeatable.
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Post by: 0604854
Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
0604854 wrote:Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights
...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye. Automatically Appended Next Post: While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:
Superheavy Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]
Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]
[1998]
Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.
Thoughts?
Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?
1943
Post by: labmouse42
Audustum wrote:I think double-avenger is probably the best loadout unless you wanna throw down against other Knights. Then you'd want a sword or a glove in place of one of the guns.
The biggest challenge here is getting the 6-8 avenger cannons to make it worthwhile. (you may get 1 per kit, depending on the kits you buy) They sell for 30+ bucks a pop on ebay.
I've got my three renegades set up in a mix and match formation, and threw in some nurglings to be a screen. Once I get more games under my belt I'll let you know how it goes.
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Post by: Mandragola
I guess the thing to do for chaos knights would be to convert the hell out of them. I'm very vaguely thinking of making a nurgle knight to go with some death guard - if I bother turning the guys in the starter set into a real force. Maybe it should have seven-barrelled Gatling cannons and be spraying something toxic out of its heavy flamers. A nurgling should be manning an Icarus autocannon on its back. That kind of thing.
1943
Post by: labmouse42
Mandragola wrote:I guess the thing to do for chaos knights would be to convert the hell out of them. I'm very vaguely thinking of making a nurgle knight to go with some death guard - if I bother turning the guys in the starter set into a real force. Maybe it should have seven-barrelled Gatling cannons and be spraying something toxic out of its heavy flamers. A nurgling should be manning an Icarus autocannon on its back. That kind of thing.
You really do have a lot of fun options for converting. I've got a Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle knight.
You can take Chaos units as well. Is chaos better than imperial? They both have good options.
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Post by: Karhedron
Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.
A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.
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Post by: Debilitate
Karhedron wrote:Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.
A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.
Not long? That's 3 turns to bring down 1 regular knight. You'll only get 1 fight phase per set of turns because knights can back out and go fight something more interesting than 3++ terminators.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Debilitate wrote: Karhedron wrote:Hammernators are still good against Knights. No more Strength D attacks means they will always get their 3++ save and the Hammers wound knights on a 4+, only allow a 6+ save and do 3 damage per failed save.
A 5-man Hammernator squad will put on average 6 wounds on a Knight per fight phase, as that is without counting any rerolls they may have access to. Add a Chaplain and that becomes 9 wounds on average per Fight phase. A knight won't last long against that kind of damage. Granted the Knight's retaliation will drop 1-2 per turn but once his WS starts dropping, he could be in trouble.
Not long? That's 3 turns to bring down 1 regular knight. You'll only get 1 fight phase per set of turns because knights can back out and go fight something more interesting than 3++ terminators.
This. I would just walk away and light them up with an Avenger cannon. Force enough 3++ saves and that five man squad is quickly made irrelevant.
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Post by: RogueApiary
Eldenfirefly wrote:How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?
How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
RogueApiary wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?
How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.
Traitor Knights. They can double up on their weapons whereas loyalists can't.
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Post by: Mandragola
RogueApiary wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:How good a matchup is one knight loaded up with double avenger or double battle cannon vs the lascannon devastator and havoc teams that people will be running nowadays?
How do you pull off double avenger/bc, is it a Forgeworld thing? I don't see that as an option on the Crusader or Warden.
It's only an option for chaos knights. They come with a chainsword and fist, and can replace either with any gun they want.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
em_en_oh_pee wrote:0604854 wrote:Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights
...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:
Superheavy Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]
Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]
[1998]
Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.
Thoughts?
Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?
That's because the Magaera is cooler.
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Post by: Audustum
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:0604854 wrote:Forgeworld Knights look most effect to me compared to standard knights
...how so? The Styrix looks viable. The rest? Not really catching my eye.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
While I am currently neck deep in my Metalica army, I think for future tourney games I might want to rock this list:
Superheavy Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy Stubber,
[528]
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer, Reaper Chainsword, Ironstorm Pod, Heavy stubber
[482]
Knight Errant
Thermal Cannon, Reaper Chainsword, Twin Icarus, Heavy stubber
[460]
[1998]
Not sure if it will succeed in a TAC environment or not, but this is where I have settled as far as a mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry, and overall firepower.
Thoughts?
Also, I am pointing out costs on the FW Knights and... what the eff? How is the Magaera so expensive? Like... more than the Atropos?
That's because the Magaera is cooler.
Take a look at the Porphyrion if you want to blanch at point costs.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
Is there still such a thing as Chaos knights in 8th ed? The chaos heretics index has only renegade knights, no chaos knights. Are the rules for that in forgeworld?
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Post by: Audustum
Eldenfirefly wrote:Is there still such a thing as Chaos knights in 8th ed? The chaos heretics index has only renegade knights, no chaos knights. Are the rules for that in forgeworld?
I don't think so, at least not yet. The indexes were just stop-gaps as I understand it. Something might come out later.
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Post by: U02dah4
The problem with this thinking is its all inefficient marines vs knights. Try firing 42 mortars at the things with rerole ones you'll knock half its health off and on the return volley lose 2 units of 27pts.
What's a knight going to do vs a conscript blob kill 12 pts of guardsman while they launch 150 attacks on it
The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do. Cheap hoards is the way to go if your squads cost 50pts or less the knight will never make its points back
You don't want dedicated anti tank as side from dunecrawlers and psyckers it's not worth 400 bolter shots on the other hand
1943
Post by: labmouse42
U02dah4 wrote:Try firing 42 mortars at the things with rerole ones you'll knock half its health off and on the return volley lose 2 units of 27pts.
Here is the mathammer on it.
(7/12 to hit with rerolling 1s) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * 9.5 shots from one HWT = 0.61 wounds.
It's possible if you have forty HWT full of mortars, you could kill a knight a round, but there are huge logistical problems with that. Firstly, you need to find space in a force org to bring 40 heavy mortar teams. Then you need to find space on the board to place them. 40 squads, even at the low cost of 9 per mortar, will cost 1080 points....
U02dah4 wrote:What's a knight going to do vs a conscript blob kill 12 pts of guardsman while they launch 150 attacks on it
I am assauming you are talking about stacking 'iron hand' and a 'priest' to give each conscript 3 attacks each. I faced that this weekend, and it's pretty brutal. The answer is simply, you place your assault units into a position where after a round or two of fight phases you can consolidate into combat with straken and the priest, killing them.
There is another problem with that logic. You can't get the entire 50 man blob into assault with a knight. It's just not possible to stick that many into it's base plus 1" next to an assaulting model. You will also never be able to consolidate around it to wrap around because the knight will just walk out.
Once you try this in some games you will see how the pure mathhammer and the actual play vary.
U02dah4 wrote:The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do. Cheap hoards is the way to go if your squads cost 50pts or less the knight will never make its points back
Cheap hordes have their own counter. I ran a Nurgle Daemon army this weekend, and conscript blobs were a hassle for me to get rid of (though I did wipe them out in every game). I talked to the guys running them, and in other games their conscripts just evaporated when the right tools were used. Land Raider Crusaders, Taurox Primes, Snipers, etc.
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Post by: DanielFM
U02dah4 wrote:
The knights originally struck me as 20% overcosted and still do.
Wraithknight called. It wants to know where do you have to sign to be only 20% overcosted
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Post by: Klowny
stratigo wrote: djones520 wrote:We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
It is very possible to take out this list.
But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.
Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.
Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,
1943
Post by: labmouse42
Klowny wrote:Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,
I can tell you from personal experience that the large pylon absolutely can kill a knight at turn.
It's a bit of a RPS gamble tough. The pylon is not all that hot if you run into a guard blob army with 150 conscripts + plasma dropping scions.
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Post by: djones520
Klowny wrote:stratigo wrote: djones520 wrote:We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
It is very possible to take out this list.
But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.
Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.
Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,
The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.
1943
Post by: labmouse42
djones520 wrote:The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.
That depends on your gaming environment. If you are playing at your LFGS, then you don't need to likely worry about it.
If you are playing competitively at tournaments, it's quite possible.
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Post by: Klowny
djones520 wrote: Klowny wrote:stratigo wrote: djones520 wrote:We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
It is very possible to take out this list.
But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.
Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.
Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,
The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.
Yep I got ahead of myself and forgot about the feet and the rest, CCB's aren't that good actually.
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Post by: Claas
Klowny wrote: djones520 wrote: Klowny wrote:stratigo wrote: djones520 wrote:We have a Knight army in my ATC team. He's been playing it exclusively for 8th so far.
So far he is 5 for 5. He has tabled everyone he's played. The worst showing he has had is losing 2.5 knights, and that was due to extreme luck on my part.
It is not a fun army to play against. Knights will go first, baring you seizing. They will out shoot you. They will out fight you. They will out last you. Don't expect to make friends with this list.
It is very possible to take out this list.
But a Take All Comers list probably won't cut it.
Since the FAQ been looking at my CCB, and realised that necrons are a hard counter to knight exclusive lists. Can easily fit multiple big FW pylons backed by spyders to regen wounds, CCB's with QS (that the reaper swords will bounce off) screened by wraiths to give HQ's invuln saves into a 2k list.
Is there enough output to neuter the pylons as well as the CCB's? The pylons can potentially oneshot a knight in a turn each,
The pylon is a pretty exclusive unit option. Most people won't have it. As for the CCB's, just kick instead of use the sword. A lot harder to ignore d3 damage, especially with 12 attacks coming in.
Yep I got ahead of myself and forgot about the feet and the rest, CCB's aren't that good actually.
GW officially errata'd them to being characters now, so they are actually decent now.
99971
Post by: Audustum
Query for anyone with the Forge World Imperial Knights book. Can the Imperium ones also pick Household or Mechanics like the Renegades can pick Household or Dark Mechanicum?
100884
Post by: Cephalobeard
I know I'm wandering into the wrong thread, but how do you Knight folks think you handle Tzeentch lists? Particularly, multiple characters and trudging through Horrors.
Honestly, Knights on paper scare me less than most things, because it will take multiple rounds of just shooting for them to even break through chaff to handle anything too important.
I'm genuinely curious for your feedback, half to enlighten me if I'm missing something, and half to work out that possible counter with you folks.
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Post by: Audustum
So one thing to keep in mind is that Knights basically have 7th Hit & Run. Against something like you describe, I would aim to:
1. Shoot with all weapons.
2. Charge and use Titanic Feet (12 attacks for most knights).
3. If the unit is still alive, Titanic Feet on your turn. Quick and dirty math says I'll get 8-9 wounds on a horror unit just from the feet, though that includes potential overkill since each one does D3 damage.
4. Fall Back, Shoot and Charge again on my turn.
In a 2,000 point game, I'll have about 4 Knights to do this with so if I can get to melee to use Titanic Feet then we can actually get through quite a bit of chaff.
23
Post by: djones520
Yeah, when dealing with hordes, use the ability to put out mass attacks.
Fire everything, charge in, stomp. At this point, you'll have caused enough casualties they'll likely evaporate. If not, you'll finish them off in their attack phase.
If you get back to your turn, and still engaged, fall back, shoot, finally finish them off, then charge another unit, rinse and repeat.
Our Knight player is going to be the answer to horde armies at ATC. Can just put out a ridiculous amount of damage, and has the most realistic chances of dropping horde armies.
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Post by: Klowny
As knight players, what is the hardest for you to deal with? For example as a necron player I am most scared of hordes, especially in CC. We melt.
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Post by: Audustum
Deep Striking melta is probably the worst. Plasma isn't as bad cause it only wounds on a 4+, but it still hurts.
Basically, we fear anti-tank weapons that, for one reason or another, we can't try to stop by striking first. Fast, high AP melee (like Genestealers) are second.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Audustum wrote:Deep Striking melta is probably the worst. Plasma isn't as bad cause it only wounds on a 4+, but it still hurts.
Basically, we fear anti-tank weapons that, for one reason or another, we can't try to stop by striking first. Fast, high AP melee (like Genestealers) are second.
Yup. Bubble wrap seems mandatory for any meta that has lots of deep strikers, which with Conscripts or Brimstones, we can get cheaply.
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Post by: djones520
Just got back from ATC, though I'd share my Knight players experiences with you guys.
Overall ended up best of the field of knights (they lumped Imperial and Traitor together). 105 points out of 120. He won all 6 games, tabling his opponent in 4 of them.
His pairings weren't exactly cake walk lists.
IG with Conscript spam, 4 guard squads with lascannons, 2 Hellhounds, 6 wyverns, 2 Manticores. (Objective win)
Traitor Knights w/ Magnus and some pox walkers (Objective win, only 2 pox walkers left when game ended on 5)
Calgar with 2 Primaris Plasma squads, 3 lascannon Predators, 2 Stormtalons (He tabled, apparently this guy had beaten 2 knight army's at the tournament already).
Space Wolves, with mixed grab bag of everything. Grey Hunters, Wulfen, Ragnar and Ulrik, some Longfangs, and a Stormfang. (He tabled)
Astra Militarum. Shadowsword, 2 Russes, Pask, 3 Scions with Meltas, and 5 Bullgryns. (He tabled)
Dark Eldar with 3 Ravagers, 2 Razorwing Fighters, 2 Hemlock Fighters, grab bag of MSU infantry and an Archon. (He tabled).
Looking around the room, overall experience was a mixed bag. A team we were friends with didn't do pairings for their Knight player so hot, and he ended up against a Shadowsword army turn 1, and some Knight armies in other games (I think the Calgar army out guy faced, beat our friends knight list). He had a Crusader, Paladin, Warden, and Errant. Kind of went for the mixed grab bag of Knights, and it seemed to bite him in the ass a bit.
Another good Knight player from our area went 4-2. His list consisted of 3 Knights with Magnus, and his Knights rocked 5 battle cannons.
Our guy had a Crusader with Battlecannon and Gatling, with Ironstorm missile pod. 2 Paladins with Icarus. 1 Paladin with no top weapon, and a fist.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.
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Post by: djones520
The high strength. A lot easier to wound anything with str 8 then str 6.
Our Knight player is a 4 time ETC attendee, routinely trounces my ass in any game system we play. Has won every tournament in the local area I've seen him play in. Basically I've come to take his word as gospel when it comes to stuff like this.
He swears by the Battlecannon over any other option.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
djones520 wrote:The high strength. A lot easier to wound anything with str 8 then str 6.
Our Knight player is a 4 time ETC attendee, routinely trounces my ass in any game system we play. Has won every tournament in the local area I've seen him play in. Basically I've come to take his word as gospel when it comes to stuff like this.
He swears by the Battlecannon over any other option.
I am just variable averse. 100pt for 2 shots just screams inefficient... but that is because I just roll garbage all the time. The average of 7 shots is really quite good. I will have to give it a go when I get a chance to roll a Knight-heavy list. Can't run them in my current League.
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Post by: djones520
I think the Gatling Cannon is a very close second, the always 12 shots brings them together, but the lower strength makes it slightly less viable in my eyes, just simply because most vehicles it only wounds on 5's, where the Battlecannon is 3's, or 4's.
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Post by: Karhedron
em_en_oh_pee wrote:I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.
Mathematically, the Avenger outperforms the RFBC against everything except T7 targets (and there it is only by a fairly small margin). I think a lot of people are still in 7th edition mindset and haven't really done the Math-hammer on 8th yet. The RFBC does have the advantage of range if you want a stand-off and shoot Knight. I feel the best all-round Knight is a Warden with Stormspear and chainsword.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Karhedron wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:I just don't get the appeal of the Battlecannon, can someone tell me why people are going to it? It seems so random that unless you do roll relatively average, it will be a disappointment pretty often.
Mathematically, the Avenger outperforms the RFBC against everything except T7 targets (and there it is only by a fairly small margin). I think a lot of people are still in 7th edition mindset and haven't really done the Math-hammer on 8th yet. The RFBC does have the advantage of range if you want a stand-off and shoot Knight. I feel the best all-round Knight is a Warden with Stormspear and chainsword.
Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.
I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.
Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two? Automatically Appended Next Post: On an aside, thoughts on the Acastus? Seems... very expensive.
You are paying for 6 more wounds and BS 2+ of which both are nice. The slower speed doesn't matter - how far will it need to go with those guns?
The Helios seems solid - good way to put a hurt on Stormravens and Stormtalons, while still lobbing out BS 3+ S8 shots at 60" against ground targets.
The Magnas are just silly. S12 AP -3 and 6 damage a pop is just insane overkill to almost anything not a giant beastly monster/tank/etc. Honestly, this thing seems like a Knight/Titan/ MC killer.
I tried to work it into a list and wasn't shocked it maxed out at 3 Knights.
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon & Heavy Flamer, RFBC, 2x Heavy Stubber, Stormspear
[585]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon & Heavy Flamer, RFBC, 2x Heavy Stubber, Icarus
[570]
Acastus Knight Porphyrion
2x Twin Magna Lascannons, 2x Lascannons, Helios Missiles
[835]
[1990]
The Avenger/RFBC seem like the best choices here because the Acastus will wreck any vehicle out there pretty well (in theory). But this list is very slim.
Thoughts on the Acastus and its applications (if any)?
109576
Post by: Karhedron
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.
I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.
Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two?
It depends, Chainsword is useful if you have to take on large opponents, it also only costs 1/3 the amount of the Avenger/RFBC. Having said that, a gun platform Knight does look promising.
Personally I think that the Stormspear is worth the points. With the extra shots and strength, it actually does more damage to fliers than the Icarus and multiple krak missiles really double-down on vehicle killing.
If you take a Knight, you are spending a lot of points on a platform that can move and fire its heavy weapons without penalty. It make sense to maximise the opportunity benefits.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Karhedron wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Chainsword strikes me as a wasted chance to bring a gun. Feet can solve our CC problem in general, I would think, as our biggest fear is hordes and that is the answer - for everything else we can just back up and shoot.
I am leaning towards the Crusader w/ Avenger & Thermal or RFBC.
Carapace weapons I am a bit torn on. Stormspear is great... but expensive. Ironstorm seems like such a bargain, but the randomness of the shots sucks as does the lower Str. Icarus seems like something one of would be useful to have in a list just to help put down Flyers... though with the rise in Flyer spam, maybe two?
It depends, Chainsword is useful if you have to take on large opponents, it also only costs 1/3 the amount of the Avenger/RFBC. Having said that, a gun platform Knight does look promising.
Personally I think that the Stormspear is worth the points. With the extra shots and strength, it actually does more damage to fliers than the Icarus and multiple krak missiles really double-down on vehicle killing.
If you take a Knight, you are spending a lot of points on a platform that can move and fire its heavy weapons without penalty. It make sense to maximise the opportunity benefits.
Fair point about the Icarus vs Stormspear. Likely it comes down to points, since fitting in the Stormspear isn't always doable.
I don't know if I think the Reaper is worth it even still. Feet take care of so much and with us just backing out of combat and laying down firepower - why opt for something we may never use when we could get a gun? 1/3 the price of the Avenger or RFBC, but only 46pt less than a Thermal, which I think is the better option (vs Reaper).
In the next two months or so, I am putting my Knights together for upcoming tourneys - doing a trio or maybe even four depending. So I will report in once I get some more table time with them. Just too busy with my AdMech atm.
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Post by: Wulfenone
What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Wulfenone wrote:What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.
Scions seem like a solid alpha strike element to me. Opting for a bunch of Command and 10-man teams with the Rod for multiple orders gives you a hell of a first or second turn glass cannon that will either require a reaction by your opponent (taking heat off the Knights) or go unanswered and be a problem the next turn (as they continue to focus on your Knights).
And they are cheap, generally. The issue is though that you want three solid Crusaders for max firepower, which means it will be hard to find 500ish points for a worthwhile Scions detachment.
This is about the best I could put together at 2k:
Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]
Elites:
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]
Troops:
(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Vox-Caster
[128]
(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]
(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]
[464]
Super Heavy Deatchment +3 CP
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
[1536]
[2000] 9 CP
99971
Post by: Audustum
The problem with using Scions is that you only get 3 drops, maybe 4, that aren't deep strike. Like in the list of of, four of your Scions are not going to be able to deep strike onto the board because you only had three Knights to put down.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Audustum wrote:The problem with using Scions is that you only get 3 drops, maybe 4, that aren't deep strike. Like in the list of of, four of your Scions are not going to be able to deep strike onto the board because you only had three Knights to put down.
Ah, good point. That does take some steam out of the list. If you downgrade to even more basic Knights (why bother), you can add some bubblewrap with Conscripts to enable more drops.
35753
Post by: Wulfenone
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Wulfenone wrote:What is everyone's opinion on running Scions w/ Knights? Looking to take 1 Atrapos and 1 Warden to a local match play tourney. Also haven't played my Acastus yet.. it looks like a very mean unit.
Scions seem like a solid alpha strike element to me. Opting for a bunch of Command and 10-man teams with the Rod for multiple orders gives you a hell of a first or second turn glass cannon that will either require a reaction by your opponent (taking heat off the Knights) or go unanswered and be a problem the next turn (as they continue to focus on your Knights).
And they are cheap, generally. The issue is though that you want three solid Crusaders for max firepower, which means it will be hard to find 500ish points for a worthwhile Scions detachment.
This is about the best I could put together at 2k:
Battalion +3 CP
HQ:
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]
Elites:
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]
(4) Tempestus Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[64]
Troops:
(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol, Vox-Caster
[128]
(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]
(5) Tempestus Scions
2x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[64]
[464]
Super Heavy Deatchment +3 CP
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer
[512]
[1536]
[2000] 9 CP
So this is what i put together for a 1,500pt maelstrom tourney.
So
Detachment: Questoris Knights
1. Knight warden - avenger gatling cannon, chainsword, heavy stunner
2. Knight Paladin - rapid fire battle cannon, chainsword, heavy stubber, ironstorm missle pod.
Detachment: imperium Scout Marines
1. 5xscouts (bolters)
2. 5xscouts (bolters)
3. 5xscouts (bolters)
Detachment: imperium Militarum Tempes
1. 1x Prime (command rod)
2. 1x Prime (command rod)
3. 4x Command (plasmas)
4. 4x Command (plasmas)
5. 5x Scions (2xplasma)
6. 5x Scions (2xplasma)
37 units. 6 Cps
Knights and Alpha striking Scions take the fight to the enemy. While scouts secure objectives.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
What detachment are you using to take just three Scout squads and no HQ? Or are they in a Battalion and part of the MT stuff (Imperium keyword)?
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Post by: Wulfenone
em_en_oh_pee wrote:What detachment are you using to take just three Scout squads and no HQ? Or are they in a Battalion and part of the MT stuff (Imperium keyword)?
Correct they would be part of the MT detachment
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Post by: Dr.Duck
Yo whats up with the lack of Knight discussion. Was thinking bout picking up a couple knights for poops and gigs off a friend, but poeple have stopped talking bout knights.
They drop like flies against eh wrong list and cant put out enough damage to compete atm? People just not running pure knights and resort to sprinking them in to thier lame SM and AM lists?
Since planning on playing pure knights ill prob go with renegades (as I would also like to loot them as ork proxxies for mega dreads later, thus easier to pass off as "renegade" knights) for the options.
Was wondering on options between Cannon and Gatt. Their profiles are too similar for my liking.
Im just blabbing, want to get some discussion going and see what peeps are running and or seeing on tables
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Post by: monarda
It's probably worth noting that the Adeptus Mechanicus has a handful of stratagems that allow CP to be spent to benefit Knights.
Knight of the Cog, for 1CP, which allows an Imperial Knight to gain the Canticles of the Omnissiah for that battle round. The caveat is that the Knight must be within 12″ of an Adeptus Mechanicus Character for this Stratagem to be used. Other Stratagems that will affect Imperial Knights are Rotate Ion Shields: For 1CP, it will add 1 to your Knight’s invulnerable save throws for that phase; and Machine Spirit Resurgent: For 1CP, you can use a Knight’s/Ad Mech vehicle’s top damage table row, regardless of how many wounds it has sustained, until the end of the turn. Lastly, there is Benevolence of the Omnissiah: For 1CP, your Ad Mech Vehicle/Imperial Knight can ignore mortal wounds on 5+ for that phase.
In order to access these stratagems I think you need at least one battle-forged not-auxiliary detachment of Mechanicus in your army.
A few Mechanicus characters can also repair Knights of one wound per turn if close enough, and there is a relic which boosts that to two wounds.
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Post by: axisofentropy
I hadn't seen widely reported that AdMech codex changed Thermal Cannon from Heavy D3 to Heavy D6. No point value change.
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Post by: momerathe
Yeah, the Errant is in a good place now. It's the best knight anti-tank weapon by a clear margin.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Really makes the Crusader shine brighter. Now it is a bit harder to justify the RFBC, given its cost vs the TC now. Crusader Avenger w/ HF, TC, Stormspear, HS [557] Not bad. A shame the AdMech Codex dropped the ball so completely when it came to Knights.
112989
Post by: momerathe
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Really makes the Crusader shine brighter. Now it is a bit harder to justify the RFBC, given its cost vs the TC now.
Honestly, I always thought the RFBC was pretty marginal to begin with.
A shame the AdMech Codex dropped the ball so completely when it came to Knights.
Well... I was hoping for more. But there is some good synergy with the various stratagems, and repair etc.
Most people seem to be speculating that there'll be a dedicated Questor Imperialis codex at some point, but we may have to wait a while. :/
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Post by: Dr.Duck
Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:
AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Dr.Duck wrote:Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:
AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76
Same as before.
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Post by: Dr.Duck
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Dr.Duck wrote:Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:
AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76
Same as before.
Oh im not factoring in the stub or HF
Im actually really digging the new thermal cannon. Hopefully the other index get FAQed with the new stats
Thinking :
2x Chainsword/AGC
2x Double Thermal
Each knight is then pretty dope against armor and bodies when shooting or in CQC
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Post by: snottlebocket
Chaos can take knights that are completely free in their loadout. How does 2 battle canons sound?
2d6 shots should average out to something nice most turns.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
snottlebocket wrote:Chaos can take knights that are completely free in their loadout. How does 2 battle canons sound?
2d6 shots should average out to something nice most turns.
Avenger > RFBC
99971
Post by: Audustum
em_en_oh_pee wrote:snottlebocket wrote:Chaos can take knights that are completely free in their loadout. How does 2 battle canons sound?
2d6 shots should average out to something nice most turns.
Avenger > RFBC
I'm not sure that's still true if you factor in command re-rolls for the 2D6.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Audustum wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:snottlebocket wrote:Chaos can take knights that are completely free in their loadout. How does 2 battle canons sound?
2d6 shots should average out to something nice most turns.
Avenger > RFBC
I'm not sure that's still true if you factor in command re-rolls for the 2D6.
Dual Avengers is 24 shots consistently. S6 means it won't struggle to wound most stuff, though it probably needs 5's to hurt tanks and stuff. It is more consistent damage output though, at 2dmg per shot vs d3.
The dual RFBC is on average 14 shots at S8, but has a wide swing (that tops out at 24 shots, which is what the Avenger brings always). However, being S8 means wounding is easier, plus it has a range advantage.
Having to chew through CP on non-strategems is not something I like to factor in.
Ultimately, I would take the 24 shots over the random ones. But really, at this point, I think the Avenger+ TC+Stormspear is the best overall combo.
116137
Post by: Pandabeer
Dr.Duck wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote: Dr.Duck wrote:Assuming that points costs were "supposed" to be standard across renegade and imperial questor selections. I think im seeing a price drop in RFBCs and AGCs in the mechanicus book:
AGC: 95
RFBC: 100
TC: 76
Same as before.
Oh im not factoring in the stub or HF
Im actually really digging the new thermal cannon. Hopefully the other index get FAQed with the new stats
Thinking :
2x Chainsword/AGC
2x Double Thermal
Each knight is then pretty dope against armor and bodies when shooting or in CQC
I certainly hope so, I'd hate to have to buy a codex of an army I don't play just to use my lone Knight with TC effectively
62203
Post by: Dr.Duck
Ya Im not to big a fan of the RFBC considering how fast knights move and them only being an additional 2 strength greater than the AGC. knights already hit like the battle cannon anyway in combat so I dotn see a huge need for them.
The new thermal cannon absolutely destroys armor over the BC and was much needed to fill out the weapon spectrum for knights.
70436
Post by: D6Damager
So what are people running these days in a competitive non-renegade Knight list at 2k?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
D6Damager wrote:So what are people running these days in a competitive non-renegade Knight list at 2k?
They aren't. Knights are low tier due to a lack of durability-to-cost. They need a point adjustment - to be around 375-400ish - to even be remotely competitive.
110187
Post by: U02dah4
Knights arnt competitive funzy only
But optimaly either lone crusader in another army (nerf the army but can still work)
Or Warden+ Crusader+ something with chainsword (to take the relic and 6+FNP warlord trait.
Usually accompanied by AdM and/or AM for the repairs+ cheap CP/ objective holding
Never take 2 as it makes your army so weak its not worth playing or 4 as you will lose from not being able to hold objectives
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