Codex: Space Marines has been out for more than a week now, and many of you have already been getting stuck in with building armies, planning your Chapter Tactics and finding the best combinations in the book.
We want to make sure that the codex works as well for you as it possibly can, and today, we’re releasing an errata with some minor changes to the book. For the most part, this is about making sure you get access to all of your wargear; Sergeants can now take melta bombs again, while various weapons now have points costs for use in your matched play games.
Mymearan wrote: Someone posted these Jes Goodwin sketches from the Primaris Edition codex. Earliest one is dated October 2014, which means Primaris Marines have been in the works for at least three years.
More pics of August White Dwarf + WD video reviews
MLaw wrote: I didn't see this posted in this thread and a user with a 1 post count posted it in a thread that already got shot down for being a duplicate topic.. so..here is this.. It's basically White Dwarf content.. I think.
Some really interesting pictures.. I'll repost them.. If they were already here.. sorry.. the thread moved fast for a while then slowed down so i think I missed some things.
[spoiler]
I saw that thread got nuked. Definitely didn't see this info anywhere else. I follow this thread pretty closely. There is more in the link.
Here's a video review of the new WD.
Warhams-77 wrote: August WD preorder says the Index Astartes articles series is indeed back
There are more (small) pages of the first three Codex books
Description
Is that salvation on the horizon for the Imperium? Why, yes – in the shape of a new issue of White Dwarf. And not only that, but with it a raft of new Primaris Space Marines. We’ve got your in-depth guide in Designers’ Notes, and – wait for it – the return of Index Astartes! After that, six of ’Eavy Metal’s finest tackle the new Space Marines in our stunning ’Eavy Metal Space Marine Challenge. But it’s not all Space Marines. The first of a new generation of codexes arrive with us this month, and we take a look at what’s in store in Damned Tomes & Ancient Pages. Elsewhere, Tactica Imperialis takes a look at stratagems, Pete Foley talks tournaments in the General’s Almanack before putting his money where his mouth is in this month’s battle report, Illuminations enters the Mortal Realms and much, much more.
Anyway, if i'm correctly reading those French points, we have the following changes:
Captain terminator -17
Librarian terminator -2
Techmarine -13
Centurion Assault Squad -20
Chapter champion -5
Company champion -16
Ironclad -40
Attack bike squad -10
Bike squad -6
Inceptor -15
Land speeder -10
Scout bike squad -2
Centurion devastator +15
Hellblaster -2
Predator -12
Stalker -10
Thunderfire cannon-27 gunner +10
Vindicator -25
Whirlwind -15
Drop pod -10
Land speeder storm -10
Chaplain cassius -40
The emperor's champion -33
Marneul Calgar -50
Sergeatn chronus -23
Sergeat Telion -14
Lightning claws -1/-1
Thunder hammer -4
Power fist -8
Seems legit. They mostly lowered the cost of the stuff that wasn't seeing any play. Guilliman kepts his cost, like the flyers and transports.
The oddball here are the centurion devastators. In my area i didn't see any, yet they got a +15.
Warhammer Community: Apothecary, Chaplain, Repulsor preorder on the 29th
Aggressors
Come with auto hellstorm gauntlets and fragstorm grenade launchers. Can replace both with flamestorm gauntlets. Hellstorm guantlets are assault 6 18" range bolters. Fragstorm grenade launchers are assault D6 18" bolters. The flamestorm gauntlets are assault 2d6 flamers. In melee both gauntlets are powerfists. A unit of 6 can be set into 2 combat squads of 3. They can fire all weapons twice if didn't move on their turn (including overwatch). They also don't suffer any penalty to their hit rolls for advancing and firing assault weapons.
Reivers
Can replace bolt carbines with combat knives. Grav-chutes give normal deep strike. Grapnel launchers don't count any vertical distances when determining how far they can move that turn. They can also go into reserve and arrive more then 9" from the enemy and within 6" of any table edge.
Redemptor
Comes with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon, heavy flamer, icarus rocket pod, 2 fragstorm grenade launchers and a redemptor fist. Can replace heavy flamer with onslaught gatling cannon, heavy onslaught gatling cannon with macro plasma incinerator and fragstorm grenade launchers with storm bolters.
Heavy Onslaught gatling cannon: Heavy 12, S5, -1 1 damage
Macro Plasma Incinerator: Heavy D6, S 8 (9), -4, 1 (2) damage. If supercharged, takes 1 mortal wound for each 1 to hit.
Icarus Rocket Pod: Heavy D3, 24", S7, -1 1 damage. +1 to hit against flyers, -1 to hit against everything else.
Onslaught gatling cannon: 24", Heavy 6 S5, -1, 1 damage
Redemptor fist is a dreadnought ccw that does D6 damage instead of 3
Inceptors
Went up by 2 power. Can combat squad into 2 3 man squads.
Plasma exterminator: 18", assault d3 plasma guns.
Hellblasters
Went down 4 power. Can take 5-10 and combat squad. All models can replace plasma incinerators with assault plasma incinerators or heavy plasma incinerators. Sergeant can swap bolt pistol for plasma pistol.
Assault Plasma Incinerators: 24", assault 2 S6 (7), -4, 1 (2) damage. Supercharge kills as normal plasmagun
Heavy Plasma Incinerator: 36", heavy 1, S8 (9), -4, 1 (2) damage, Supercharge kills as normal plasmagun.
Replusor
Toughness looks like 8 or 9 (blurry), 16 wounds. 3+ save. Comes with a Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, twin heavy bolter, inbuilt heavy stubber, 2 storm bolters, icarus heavy stubber, 2 krakstorm grenade launchers and auto launchers. (I'm guessing a bit on some of the names. Again, blurry). Can replace twin heavy bolters with twin lascannons, replace heavy onslaught gatling cannon with las-talon, inbuilt heavy stubber with onslaught gatling cannon, storm bolters with fragstorm grenade launchers, icarus heavy stubber with icarus rocket pod, storm bolter or fragstorm grenade launcher and auto launchers with 2 fragstorm grenade launchers. It can take an addition inbuilt heavy stubber.
Many weapons you can look up in the dreadnought entry
Icarus Heavy Stubber: 36" heavy 3, S4, -1, 1 damage. +1 to hit flyers, -1 against everything else
Inbuilt Heavy Stubber is the same without the flyer bit
Krakstorm grenade launchers: 16" assault 3 (I think) S6, -1 D3 damage
Las-talon: 24" heavy 2, S9, -3, D6
Hover tank: distances and ranges are always measured from hull rather than base. Repulsor field: subtract 2" from charge rolls made when charging a repulsor. Power of the Machine Spirit as normal. Auto launchers are basically smoke launchers.
Can transport 10 primaris infantry. Gravis models count as 2. Cannot transport jump pack models.
Warhammer-Community about Codex SM
Spoiler:
A quote of the article for the work-blocked
Posted 16/07/2017
Codex: Space Marines: Your first look!
We did tell you that you wouldn’t have to wait long for your first codex! Codex: Space Marines will be the first of the new edition, and it’s our best Space Marines codex yet, filled with all the stuff you’ve loved from previous editions, like special characters and Chapter Tactics, as well as exciting new additions like advanced stratagems and new units. You’ll be able to pre-order your codex next weekend, and we’ve got a week of previews to tide you over until then, starting with an overview of what’s inside the book.
This is the complete guide to your army, with 104 pages of background, covering the long and storied history of the Adeptus Astartes and the distinct traditions of the First Founding Chapters and their Successors. There’s also new background focused on the Primaris Marines and the Ultima Founding, from Chapters brought back from the brink of destruction like the Crimson Fists to new heroes like the Rift Stalkers. There’s detailed livery to inspire your own paint schemes, as well as a breakdown of squad and company markings, from those of the more Codex compliant Chapters like the Ultramarines to the unique battle-iconography of the Black Templars.
The codex is packed with new units, too. We can’t tell you about all of these yet, but we can guarantee you’ll see everything from Dark Imperium, our new Primaris Space Marine heroes, the Reivers, the Repulsor and the colossal Redemptor Dreadnought. There are also all the characters and units you know and love, including Chapter-specific special characters that will unlock yet more avenues for army building and themed forces. Again, Space Marine players will have a very powerful and complex force at their disposal, with some truly terrifying combinations available to those who make the maximum use of Primaris and non-Primaris units; one of our favourites is combining Reivers with High Marshal Helbrecht and Chaplain Grimaldus to create a savage assault army capable of striking the fear of the Emperor into the heart of the most obstinate heretic. All in all, there are 85 datasheets in the book – the codex is almost the size of the Warhammer 40,000 book.
Of course, a Space Marine army wouldn’t be a Space Marine army without the legacy of its Primarch; these are represented in Codex: Space Marines with Chapter Tactics for (deep breath now) the Ultramarines, the White Scars, the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars, the Salamanders, the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands. These have been changed a little from what you may be used to, and for the better – we’ve been able to make the Chapter Tactics very powerful and very flexible, but your army will need to be battle-forged to use them. Previous Chapter Tactics generally focused around specific units and weapons like Salamanders with flamers or Imperial Fists with bolter-armed Tactical Squads, but this time around, they’ll be benefitting every unit and every army build; the strength of the Space Marines is diversity, after all. We’ll be taking a look at these over the next week, and what you can do with them, so keep your eyes peeled.
These Chapter Tactics are backed up with a range of relics, warlord traits, psychic powers and Stratagems. The Stratagems are especially exciting; the Space Marines codex has 26 new Stratagems for you to play with. These allow you to customise your army even more – as well as general Stratagems, there’s also one for each Chapter, as well as Stratagems focused around specific units. Try combining Vindicators to fire a brutal Linebreaker Bombardment, or unleashing Tremor Shells from a Thunderfire Cannon. Again, these are going to reward disciplined and careful list building with a lot of powerful choices and allow you to spotlight units and tactics that you like to use.
With Stratagems, you’ll be able to build armoured columns, focus on your heroes or master the Fight phase. These are paired with 14 Warlord Traits – 6 for any Space Marine army and 8 for the different Chapters. Particularly shrewd readers will notice that’s one more than there should be – that’s because the Crimson Fists, while using the Chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists, have their own Warlord Trait and Relic. We haven’t even got into psychic powers yet, or Tactical Objectives…
Whether you want to build an army from the background or create your own custom Chapter and heroes, Codex: Space Marines is going to be very rewarding for you.
You’ll be able to pre-order your own codex and build an army truly worthy of the Adeptus Astartes next weekend.
In the meantime, we’ll be focusing on a different Chapter every day until then to tide you over. Make sure to come back tomorrow for your first look, and in the meantime, you can kick off your army with Start Collecting! Space Marines or get your hands on some of the new units and heroes.
Warhams-77 wrote: I have no idea how reliable the source is but here are some new rumors
Harvarn - B&C
The other day I got a sneak preview of some primaris models that are not out yet. Cant share the photos but this is basically legit.. was a quick glance but this is what I saw
- Primaris Apothecary
- Interceptor Squad with what looks like short range dual plasma cannons
- A second variant of the hover tank which had weapon sponsons where the doors are on the side
- and a new unit which looks like a cross between a Primaris marine and a centurion it had those new missile packs you see on the tank and dreadnought but on the shoulders of the new unit like how typhoon missile launchers are on terminators. They were carrying heavy weapons I assume its their version of a dev squad.
- Bolter Reivers which actually look really really cool.
Dunno of anyone else have seen them but it seems legit cause it was shot in a photo studio.
just looks like it, it is definitely not a terminator just that it had an exo suit on it esp at the feet.. was referring to its aesthetics more than the suit in a suit kinda thing.
The interceptors definitely not carrying pistols it looks huge but stubby
Among the Space Marines, few are as relentless or as ruthless as the Iron Hands. Where others see gene-crafted physical perfection, the Iron Hands see only the weakness of the flesh, augmenting their bodies with cybernetics and making heavy use of tanks. The ultimate fate for an Iron Hand is interment in a Dreadnought and an eternity of war as a living machine.
The Iron Hands Chapter Tactic, The Flesh Is Weak, reflects both the relentless spirit and augmented bodies of these hardy warriors, allowing them to shrug off wounds and making them exceptionally difficult to kill. Multi-wound models like Terminators are going to be nigh-impossible to shift, while, appropriate to their background, Iron Hands Dreadnoughts of all types are going to be unstoppable. One of the deadliest units available to the Iron Hands is the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire.
While Chapter Tactics don’t usually apply to Vehicles, Iron Hands armies will be able to take full advantage of their chapter armoury thanks to Stratagems. As well as stratagems available to all Space Marine armies like Killshot and Armour of Contempt, the Iron Hands’ Machine Empathy lets vehicles move and shoot without penalties to hit on their Heavy weapons and even advance and shoot without penalties for their Assault weapons. Even the humble Razorback can be transformed into a deadly forward assault tank, although the biggest beneficiary of this tactic will again likely be Dreadnoughts. An Iron Hands Redemptor Dreadnought armed with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon will be able to move on the foe with terrifying speed while maintaining a steady rate of accurate fire – a perfect demonstration of the weakness of flesh!
It’s not all about machines though. In the last edition, melee Iron Hands characters were some of the best in the game, and that’s still true, as their Warlord Trait and Relic allow you to make some really lethal combatants, gaining extra attacks from Merciless Logic and cutting down the foe with The Axe of Medusa.
The Iron Hands are the chapter for commanders who want to demonstrate the power of the machine with unstoppable columns of tanks, troops and Dreadnoughts. Make sure to come back tomorrow for our final Chapter previews, where we’ll be looking at the dauntless descendants of Dorn with the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black Templars.
The Raven Guard are a dark and mysterious Chapter, specialising in covert warfare. Using speed and stealth, the Raven Guard stalk their enemies before unleashing a lethal killing blow, before melting back into the shadows once more. In the new Codex: Space Marines, the Raven Guard are a diverse and flexible army, taking full advantage of stealth, shooting and melee to annihilate their foes.
Shadow Masters is one of the most versatile and powerful new Chapter Tactics, offering a great bonus for all sorts of armies. Raven Guard Scouts now live up to their reputation in the background, and units of snipers with camo cloaks will be incredibly difficult to displace from cover, while other ranged support units like Devastators, Intercessors and even ranged Dreadnoughts will benefit hugely from better defences against shooting. Like all the new Chapter Tactics, the purpose of this rule is to reward focused army building with powerful benefits that allow for a range of viable armies.
The Raven Guard aren’t just a shooting army – on the other side of the coin, they’re still a potent combat army. Kayvaan Shrike, now promoted to Chapter Master of the Raven Guard, allows fellow Raven Guard jump pack units to reroll their charge ranges, helping your Assault Squads, Vanguard Veterans and Inceptors close the distance on key enemy units.
Reivers, on the other hand, are a versatile and powerful unit in a Raven Guard army and function well with other assault units; they’re almost as mobile as jump troops with their grapnel launchers and grav-chutes, with some handy abilities like Terror Troops and shock grenades. If you want to make your own Raven Guard characters, their unique Warlord Trait, Silent Stalker, prevents enemies from firing Overwatch, while the Raven’s Fury Chapter relic allows a jump pack character to move at blistering speeds and reroll charge ranges – combined, you’ll have a potent and deadly character assassin.
One of the most exciting new features of the Raven Guard is their unique Stratagem, Strike From the Shadows. You’ll want to pack as many command points as you can into your list to take full advantage of this, allowing you to hold units back at the start of the game and deploy them anywhere more than 9″ away from the enemy just before the game begins.
There’s a huge range of ways to use this; getting a group of Hellblasters or Centurions into a strong firing position, setting up a devastating first turn charge with an Assault Squad or Inceptors, or just forcing your enemy to deploy defensively. As this rule is tied to command points, you’ll be able to choose how you use it – in some games you’ll want to deploy lots of your army with Strike from the Shadows, while in others it may be beneficial to hold some points back for a crucial re-roll, or another Stratagem like a flyer-busting flakk missile.
With the new codex out soon, your army won’t have to wait in the shadows much longer. In the meantime, now is a great time to pick up Kayvaan Shrike to lead your own Raven Guard army. Make sure to come back tomorrow for another sneak peek at a Chapter from the new codex.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Tabletop Tactics have a video where they play a game with a preview copy of the codex and the new Dreadnought.
Spoiler:
Some things to note:
> Ultramarines Relic is the Santic Halo - Gives a 3++ and allows the Bearer to Deny 1 power in the psychic phase.
> One Relic may be taken by 1 Space Marine Character if your Warlord is a Space Marine.
> There's a 1CP Stratagem that allows you to take 2 Relics rather than 1, and a 3CP Stratagem that allows you to take 3 rather than 1.
> The Redemptor Dread can be armed with a set of AA Missiles.
Anyway, if i'm correctly reading those French points, we have the following changes:
Captain terminator -17
Librarian terminator -2
Techmarine -13
Centurion Assault Squad -20
Chapter champion -5
Company champion -16
Ironclad -40
Attack bike squad -10
Bike squad -6
Inceptor -15
Land speeder -10
Scout bike squad -2
Centurion devastator +15
Hellblaster -2
Predator -12
Stalker -10
Thunderfire cannon-27 gunner +10
Vindicator -25
Whirlwind -15
Drop pod -10
Land speeder storm -10
Chaplain cassius -40
The emperor's champion -33
Marneul Calgar -50
Sergeatn chronus -23
Sergeat Telion -14
Lightning claws -1/-1
Thunder hammer -4
Power fist -8
Seems legit. They mostly lowered the cost of the stuff that wasn't seeing any play. Guilliman kepts his cost, like the flyers and transports.
The oddball here are the centurion devastators. In my area i didn't see any, yet they got a +15.
Point costs update July 29th - for Index Imperium 1 (same costs as in Codex SM)
They Shall No Fear:
Terrifying Troops: Enemy units must subtract 1 from their leadership attribute if they are within 3 "or less of any Reivers
Shock Grenade: A shock grenade does not inflict damage. Instead, each time you hit an enemy infantry unit, they are stunned until the end of the turn, you can not make defensive shots, and your opponent must subtract 1 from any shot made by the unit.
Basically that's literally it.
* Rumored or confirmed releases A - Z *
First Strike and Know No Fear / Easy-to-built Reivers, Intercessors, Plague Marines, Poxwalkers / Getting Started 40k book / Paint Sets / More
New Primaris Space Marines and Death Guard Announced
Hot off the heels of Dark Imperium there’s even more Death Guard and Primaris Space Marines landing soon. The releases begin next week with two new champions of humanity, and then in July an array of Getting Started products, making it easier than ever to get involved in the 41st Millennium.
The Primaris Captain is a stoic, indomitable commander, posed urging his army forward… It’s immediately clear that the Captain is as much a leader as he is a fighter, although a power sword and bolter imply masteries in both ranged and close quarters combat. This is a model that’s going to look right at home in the thick of your Intercessors and Hellblasters while managing to stand out on his own terms – perfect, given his role as a frontline leader both on the tabletop and in the background. There’s no Chapter specific iconography on the model, meaning whichever Space Marine Chapter you collect, you’ll be able to paint and personalise your Primaris Captain to match. The kit also has options for different heads and weapons, allowing for even greater customisation.
The Primaris Librarian blends the noble bearing of the Primaris Captain with a wealth of occult detail and baroque cybernetics indicative of a darker, more mysterious kind of warrior. He is a warrior-mystic, trained in both physical and psychic warfare, and this carries over to the positioning of the miniature itself; one hand wields a deadly force sword while the other is raised as if to smite the foe with psychic power. Like the Captain, you’re free to customise the Librarian to suit any Chapter you like (barring the Black Templars, who refuse to tarry with any such foul sorcery!). You can either build the Librarian bare-headed or with a custom helm linked to his psychic hood.
In July, both the Primaris Space Marines and the Death Guard are getting new units, starting with the Reivers of the Adeptus Astartes. Many of these Getting Started kits will be in the Easy to Build format, meaning they’ll be easy to assemble – they’re made of coloured plastic and you won’t even need glue. There are also two new Getting Started boxes and a Getting Started with Warhammer 40,000 book coming soon, giving you a range of options for beginning your journey in the 41st Millennium.
Our first Easy to Build kit of the new edition features the Reivers. These guys are the guerilla specialists of the Primaris Space Marines, and their miniatures have a threatening, predatory feel. In contrast to the stalwart Intercessors, the Reivers appear to be advancing forwards, equipped with suppressed bolt pistols and brutal-looking combat blades.
Stripped down Mk X armour allows for a good look at how this newest mark of Space Marine armour functions, with the midsection of the models showing thick bundles of fibrous cabling; this is the mechanical muscle that lets the Reivers punch through concrete, sprint in full plate and leap through ruins and jungles. Finally, each Reiver wears the visage of a leering skull – these guys aren’t just about stealth, but terror. Even if you’ve already got an Imperial army, Reivers will make a great addition to your force, and there are rules in the box to let you start adding them to your games straight away.
[...]
These products will be released alongside our new ways to get started. The first of these is our Getting Started with Warhammer 40,000 handbook – this 103-page guidebook is the perfect guide for any Warhammer 40,000 beginner, giving a thorough overview of the universe of the 41st Millennium, how the game works and the different armies you can collect. It also comes with an Easy to Build Intercessor and a set of core rules, allowing you to take the first steps of your journey for around the price of a White Dwarf.
First Strike, on the other hand, is a great boxed set for both new and experienced players of Warhammer 40,000. For new players, there’s everything you need in the box to start playing, including miniatures, rules, and a guidebook taking you through a series of handy scenarios to teach you to play. There’s a double-sided gaming mat in the box, and it’s printed so that it doubles as a set of cardboard Munitorum Armoured Containers – meaning you’ll have somewhere to play your first few games. The box itself contains all our new Easy to Build miniatures, but for almost half the price you’d pay if you got them all separately – it’s a great way to get your hands on all the new releases in one place! There’s also a pocket-sized Battle Primer that’ll be helpful for you whether you’re playing your first few games or you’re a seasoned veteran in need of a quick-reference guide.
Finally, Know No Fear is great for players looking to make a comprehensive start, containing full armies for the Death Guard and the Primaris Space Marines. As well as getting a Patrol Detachment’s worth of miniatures for each side, you’ll get rules, your guide to getting started, a gaming mat and card scenery – all for nearly half the price of Dark Imperium. Combined with the Easy to Build kits, you’ll be able to assemble a diverse and powerful force of Death Guard or Primaris Space Marines in no time.
You can expect to see the Primaris Librarian and Primaris Captain available for pre-order next weekend, while the new Getting Started products will be available shortly after that. For those of you who want to get involved with the complete Warhammer 40,000 experience, Dark Imperium contains two full armies of miniatures alongside the complete rulebook, which features detailed background and advanced rules – get yours now in store or online.
Warhams-77 wrote: A blurry image, but could this be a helmeted apothecary? The pic is from the Warhammer-digital.com website
Hive City Dweller wrote: Here's a piece of art from the rulebook allegedly showing new apothecary:
RyanAvx wrote: I've outlined everything I think I see in the image, hopefully it makes some of the things stand out a bit more. Make sure you click for the larger image! Hmm in the back left too there looks like some Inceptors, but I think they are from the starter set.
I really like that alternate build. Pointy hand of command, for the win!
Almost forgot! You have a choice of guns for the Captain. Auto Bolt Rifle(the unscoped version) or standard Bolt Rifle(scoped).
Captain - store event exclusive model
Spoiler:
Mandragola wrote: So, rather unlike the previous poster, I love me some fancy special marines. I got myself the store birthday primaris captain and thought you all might like to see inside the box.
He's nothing special rules-wise - just a captain with different equipment. They've kept him to a single sprue, like the chaplain, and the detail suffers very slightly as a result. It's a nice mini overall though.
I might run mine as a crimson fist to make use of their relic power fist. Haven't decided yet.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Just popped up on my Facebook - seemingly first available at the Milton Keynes Store 8th and 9th July
No word on the price as yet, but will confirm soon as I know more.
Warhams-77 wrote: The Intro book comes with a single Intercessor Marine. Could it be the one for shop painting sessions?
Free with the all about 40k book, free one for painting tutorial in store, 3 in the £20 box, to give you a squad of 5 with 4 unique poses. Babby's first marine squad.
If people are curious I clean up and put one together on my youtube channel.
- 8 months work
- Lots of tests with helmet/human looking/ sarcophagus ...
- Wanted a BIG and Heavy Dread.
- They even animated it to see articulation moving
- Arms can be locked without glue
- Rocket on top (turn + elevation, quite mobile and quick reacting gun, maybe anti air?)
- Chest plate opens up to show off painted sarcophagus+cables ^^
- Center weapon (Rocket or bolter + future upgrade could be stuff like a flamer for Salamanders)
- All armor plates are separate like the Imperial Knight (so you can build the exoskeleton and then add the plates)
- Anti infantry/tank option on hardpoints.
So heavy bolt pistol, which is hand held version of the bolt rifle... So bolt rifle bolts and not heavy bolter bolts I presume. Melee weapon is still called combat knife, I doubt it will have particularly impressive rules.
Also, the background art shows a Reiver with a (regular, old style) bolter, and what is weirder still, it seems that on the pic is superimposed a picture of a Reiver model holding a bolt rifle.
Have you seen the Primaris information from the rulebook?
Guilliman has given the various markings new meanings.
The Tactical marking(upward arrow) is now "Battleline".
The Devastator marking(upward facing chevron) is "Fire Support".
The Assault marking(diagonally crossed quad arrows) is now "Close Support".
The Crux remains as "Veteran"..
warboss wrote: I've seen folks mention here that the role (dev, assault, etc) markings have changed meaning somewhat in the 8e rulebook. Have there been any previews yet of other codex style markings changing with Primaris marines?
Not that I saw.
It's less that the "role markings have changed" and more "they've been made to be more generalized, similar to the old Legion markings".
No product details yet, Hastings mentioned there should be at least four infantry kits, two clampack characters, a flyer, a Dreadnought and two vehicle kits.
I guess the Redemptor is around Leviathan size but people who were at Warhammer Fest should be better qualified to answer this
the only way this will work is if primaris will engulf one section of july and DG the later half ... similar to ground marines and khorne fanatics back in 2015
Tamereth wrote: May want to change the thread title to say primaris to save confusion.
It is currently unknown what kind of Codex will be accompanying the model releases. Based on the tactical roles of Primaris Marines we already have info about and those described in the Dark Imperium novel, an 8th edition Codex: Space Marines similiar to the last one updated with the new units is as likely as a seperate book focusing on Primaris only plus a Codex: SM. My personal opinion: although there will only be Primaris models in the next month or so the former will happen, a combined book, excluding DA/BA/SW/GK. But I try to keep my guesses out of N&R thread ops as much as possible and mostly collect what info we have. The 8th Edition thread ended, so we needed a new one. Until a reliable source chimes in or GW announces it I will keep the title neutral and update the op with new info at a daily rate.
I'm just going to leave this here as I don't think it is thread worthy. Jeremy Vetock was on the live stream just now and he mentioned that new Slaanesh stuff is coming (not soon though) he also said that the developing story will involve necron stuff happening on mechanicus forgeworlds.
Oh christ, no thanks. I don't trust GW's writers within ten miles of any kind of Mechanicus/Necrons intersection after the abysmal Dragon guff in Mechanicum. If I wanted to play C'Tan patsies I'd be playing Necrons.
I still can't get on board with that dread, the proportions don't do it for me at all.
The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Verviedi wrote: Hooray! Mechanicus is involved! I like Necrons, Necrons are cool enough.
Going to need some context here, because I don't see anything about that in the thread.
The post above the one you quoted.
Oh woops, I missed that. Cheers. That's cool. We might get Pariahs back, as in the 3rd ed codex there was a bit of fluff about people being made into Pariahs on mars.
I hate to be a pessimist, but I wonder if GW is planning on completely doing away with the designations of Assault, Devastator, and Tactical in favor of Close Support, Fire Support, and Battleline, in their quest for renaming/rebranding everything, even when it's just semantics. Because, really....why? Having the old designations would be an easy way to see how Primaris forces fit into standard Companies when they arrive.
I would not put it beyond them...at all. I can see almost everything in the game being re-named/modified. They seem to be on a huge high doing that.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Are the knuckle pads on the dreadnought the same size as marine shoulder pads? That would be cool if they were interchangeable. Just think of having the molded pads with the ultramarine symbol on each knuckle, then it punching someone and leaving the symbol dented into their face .
I like the lines of the new Repulsor tank, but the Leviathan is miles better than the new 'Kegger"-class dreadnought. Based on the Primaris fluff being tech and personnel that was held in stasis since the end of the Heresy, they could have just brought back the Contemptor with a sweet multi-option plastic kit instead of the monopose Calth model. Would have looked better alongside the Primaris forces, too.
Dunno why a genious techpriest from 10,000 years ago would base a design on a less sophisticated model than all the great designs of his day.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
To be fair, referring to Standard Bearers as Ancients isn't anything new, except in the actual unit name. So far as I remember, the UM company layout in the 5th Ed Space Marines codex specifically mentioned the Command Squad's standard as the Ancient.
The title of "Ancient" is reserved for the standard bearers of the Codex Astartes-compliant Chapters and is considered one of the most prestigious and senior ranks within most Space Marine Chapters
Not a huge fan of the new dread, its size is impressive but aesthetically, the Leviathan has it beat all round.
Elbows wrote: I would not put it beyond them...at all. I can see almost everything in the game being re-named/modified. They seem to be on a huge high doing that.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Because that's the name they've always had in the lore (the standardbearer) but not in the tabletop! Simple as that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chikout wrote: I'm just going to leave this here as I don't think it is thread worthy. Jeremy Vetock was on the live stream just now and he mentioned that new Slaanesh stuff is coming (not soon though) he also said that the developing story will involve necron stuff happening on mechanicus forgeworlds.
And they added anything more? Slaanesh for just 40k or AoS too?
Elbows wrote: Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Because they finally put his actual rank in the unit name? After only twenty years, too.
Not counting that the title itself goes back to Roman times which is probably why the pseudo-Roman Ultramarines favour it.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) .. .
Saves them from having to rename him next edition, when the original Marines are quietly removed and the Primaris guys just become the standard marines...
You know, what I'd really like to see is a side-by-side of the Redemptor with the washing machine - at first glance the sarcophagus and upper-torso section seem quite similar in size to the old dread, but I thought the same about the Bolt Rifles as well and they're HUEG compared to regular bolters, not merely a slight length extention, so maybe this might be a useful source of parts for truescale dreads afterall.
The Primaris Dreadnought is something that I have noticed looks to sport a beer belly, as I have seen this now I can not unsee it.
It could be to do with the angle of the photos, and how some objects don't translate well to flat images.
The New Tank is far too busy, a bit of a departure from the slick looking aesthetics of the Primaris Marines. Also this may just be me, but I honestly think that Anti-Grav vehicles should be limited to xenos only. A way to help show that it is still a dark age, and some technology has been lost, or is no longer understood.
Elbows wrote: I would not put it beyond them...at all. I can see almost everything in the game being re-named/modified. They seem to be on a huge high doing that.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Remember that Primaris aren't just "brand new baby space marines". Apparently the process can be used on Marines as well.
Elbows wrote: I would not put it beyond them...at all. I can see almost everything in the game being re-named/modified. They seem to be on a huge high doing that.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Remember that Primaris aren't just "brand new baby space marines". Apparently the process can be used on Marines as well.
Indeed, it's kind of a fair assumption that a "primaris ancient" with a white veteran helmet is probably one of those upgraded marines. But it's also worth bearing in mind by the time of the box set the primaris have been fighting for a while, they don't exactly have new car smell anymore
Well, sure. He just can't see anything that gets close enough to be under his belly overhang, lol. The new dread does grow on you, though I hate it's increased size.
It just seems that GW is hitting us pretty hard in the face that 8th edition's theme is "Bigger! Everything bigger!"
The Dark Imperium novel has a Primaris Ancient accompanying Calgar on Ultramar. While it is more of a ceremonial title, this particular Primaris was among the first batch to reach Ultramar. So by the time of the book he's been a marine for about a century. There is also a Redemtor dread who's pilot was the first Primaris to fall in Ultramar's defence.
Yodhrin wrote: You know, what I'd really like to see is a side-by-side of the Redemptor with the washing machine - at first glance the sarcophagus and upper-torso section seem quite similar in size to the old dread, but I thought the same about the Bolt Rifles as well and they're HUEG compared to regular bolters, not merely a slight length extention, so maybe this might be a useful source of parts for truescale dreads afterall.
Or not. Numarines might be too large for truemarines. That or custodes are way too small
So they'll either re-box everything, print new instructions for the stuff with the rules on the instructions and make inserts for the stuff that doesn't or be liars.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The Dark Imperium novel has a Primaris Ancient accompanying Calgar on Ultramar. While it is more of a ceremonial title, this particular Primaris was among the first batch to reach Ultramar. So by the time of the book he's been a marine for about a century. There is also a Redemtor dread who's pilot was the first Primaris to fall in Ultramar's defence.
A one-century-old Space Marine is hardly an Ancient.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The Dark Imperium novel has a Primaris Ancient accompanying Calgar on Ultramar. While it is more of a ceremonial title, this particular Primaris was among the first batch to reach Ultramar. So by the time of the book he's been a marine for about a century. There is also a Redemtor dread who's pilot was the first Primaris to fall in Ultramar's defence.
A one-century-old Space Marine is hardly an Ancient.
As was mentioned earlier, the title "ancient" doesn't mean the marine is older, it's simply denotes the honor/status of the flag bearer. I think this is rooted in Roman/Medieval tradition. A lot of time the "ancient" was the banner itself, not the one tasked with carrying it. Of course I haven't seen the fluff yet so unless GW has an alternative explanation, this seems more than likely.
I like the repulsor tank, though the variant with tons of extra guns is way better. The dread on the other hand I just don't like, I could tolerate the bot-belly-ish bit on its own but combined with the bow-legged look its just silly to me.
Yodhrin wrote: You know, what I'd really like to see is a side-by-side of the Redemptor with the washing machine - at first glance the sarcophagus and upper-torso section seem quite similar in size to the old dread, but I thought the same about the Bolt Rifles as well and they're HUEG compared to regular bolters, not merely a slight length extention, so maybe this might be a useful source of parts for truescale dreads afterall.
Or not. Numarines might be too large for truemarines. That or custodes are way too small
I already have my box, they're the perfect size for truescale marines, like to the mm. It's merely that the bolt rifles are just as hilariously oversized as bolters were on normal marines. For some reason(to stay compatible with the HH range?) they evidently chose to scale the Custodes against regular Marines.
I like the new Redemptor Dread a bit, but I love the Leviathan - so Leviathan Redemptor 'counts as' it is!
TBH I'd just take a Relic Leviathan instead - T8, 2+/4++, 14 wounds, two heavy flamers, and a pair of Heavy 10, S7, AP-2, D2 Storm Cannons sounds like it'll mulch just about anything, and for the things it won't the Grav-flux Bombard is Heavy D3(+D3 extra for every five models in the target unit), S9, AP-5, D2(becomes D5 if target has Monster, Vehicle, or Titanic keywords). The Redemptor rules will have to be something special to compare.
Alpharius wrote: Good point - just not sure how readily Leviathans will be 'accepted' in games of 40K, so if not, 'counts as' Redemptor is a good fall back!
Wait, there are still people holding the line on the whole "FW isn't proper" thing? I thought they'd finally given in and accepted reality once FW started putting actual big ol' "STAMP OF OFFICIALNESS" graphics on their unit entries and that surely the only ones left were rare oddities like those Japanese island soldiers who never found out the war had ended.
AduroT wrote: Are the rules for that new hover rhino and the dread in the Imperial 1 book already? We're already out of that one so I can't check myself.
AduroT wrote: Are the rules for that new hover rhino and the dread in the Imperial 1 book already? We're already out of that one so I can't check myself.
no. Only current models.
So if the only Marines I care about playing are the new Primaris Marines then I don't care about the Index?
I love the look and size of that Redemptor Dread. They've basically (finally) unshackled the design and size from the old limitations of the metal model circa '93-94. The previous/current "Angry Washing Machines" are all just plastic versions of those old metals that lack things like knees, only with more and more bling glued to them. As much as I love the older design, this is a step in the right direction.
The vehicle situation with the Primaris seems odd IMO. With the exception of the transports, they interact with every other SM unit as if they were regular Marines. If GW wanted to keep them separate why do the officer buffs affect both types? And if they wanted to combine them, then why cant the LR and Stormtalon carry Primaris when Terminators and Centurions are ok? Do they really think the Repulsor wont sell if they can use other transports?
To be fair to GW while a regular SM might have to duck down a bit to use a Rhino side hatch, a Primaris marine would have to nearly bend over double to get in and out of a Rhinos rear ramp never mind the side doors. But the LR and Stormtalon situation is just daft.
Fluff wise I would imagine that the seats in rhinos or land raiders are designed to lock in and interface with regular and terminator armor, abd not designed for Primaris armor.
Regardless, the goal is to build a separation between the armies. It's the only way they'll be able to "encourage" people to move to the new marine standard.
I'm curious if some of the marine equivalents (I.e. Apothecary) will retain the same name or get a new designation (i.e. Standard bearer-> ancient) as they appear in the Primaris army list.
Accolade wrote: Regardless, the goal is to build a separation between the armies. It's the only way they'll be able to "encourage" people to move to the new marine standard.
I'm curious if some of the marine equivalents (I.e. Apothecary) will retain the same name or get a new designation (i.e. Standard bearer-> ancient) as they appear in the Primaris army list.
'Ancient' isn't a new designation. The Ultramarines Chapter Banner bearer, Ancient Helveticus dates back to 2002.
I was referring more to the general term for the unit in the list rather than individual heroic characters. Obviously ancient is a term beyond GW, but they've been "diversifying" their unit naming, so I'm curious if other units may receive updates.
Definitely not feeling the Repulsor. I have no problem with the body shape and design, and the fact it hovers is OK - so does the land speeder, after all. So the idea they finally figured out how to make more hovering stuff is cool.
I think the Repulsor is just too heavily armed. It looks like a toy. There are 5 weapon systems on the turret alone, plus a hull mounted weapon and what i guess are frag grenades over the doors. If it's also going to be delivering troops on par with the Land Raider - just kind of ridiculous.
Accolade wrote: I was referring more to the general term for the unit in the list rather than individual heroic characters. Obviously ancient is a term beyond GW, but they've been "diversifying" their unit naming, so I'm curious if other units may receive updates.
'Ancient' is a general term in the fluff. After Ancient Helveticus was killed in the Battle of Macragge, he was succeeded by Ancient Galatan.
Accolade wrote: Regardless, the goal is to build a separation between the armies. It's the only way they'll be able to "encourage" people to move to the new marine standard.
I'm curious if some of the marine equivalents (I.e. Apothecary) will retain the same name or get a new designation (i.e. Standard bearer-> ancient) as they appear in the Primaris army list.
I think its likely we will se primaris equivalients of established command persona, just with a slight bias and a new name that evoke no sense of recognision or explanation (like chaplain = Capellan Nominator).
It was hinted that there will be some new chapters made entierly of primaris, so I suppose primaris will be part of regular SM and at the same time be separate.
I suspect the Primaris will be at the beginning of July, then the Death Guard at the end of July around the same time as the Campaign starts rolling out.
Since Primaris Marines are mostly part of already existant Space Marine Chapters, I imagine they will be part of the
Marine Codex... for now.
and going by the leaked info sent to LFGS and GW stores (at the center and bottom of that thread) it will be interesting to see how releases will be handled. I guess after more SM kits in July WD, there may be DG in the August issue, so they could still take part in Fate of Konor, some smaller AoS releases in between and a major Nurgle Daemons AoS/40k release afterwards, probably in September
Campaign – between 27th July and the 10th September
After reading Hastings rumors again I would not be surprised to see lots of Primaris kits in the next two months. It will be interesting to see if they handle SM and DG like Kharadron Overlords and show everything in advance so when those Codizes drop we will already know all units via WarCom articles and WarhammerTV presentations.
While I do not think new kits will be directly connected to the ongoing campaign, the additional attention created by Fate of Konor and how it will draw people to shops could be helpful as a marketing tool for both factions. Especially for new players who came to 40k with the starter set and want to expand those forces. The campaign is also a quite good way to bring new and current players together and build up local communities.
Just my own ideas, I wonder if any one thought if it be possible to upgrade existing characters to primaris marines, eg special characters pay 'x' points and add 'x' to stats, to reflect the existing named characters upgrading to primaris marines.
The redemptor dread looks a bit more nimble in comparison to the leviathan dread too, I'd like to think it will have an increased movement stat compared to the leviathan, but it also looks taller, so different wounds or toughness maybe? I haven't seen the leviathan stat line so I don't know which way one would assume it could pan out.
I'm gonna take a guess as to what thew Primaris Release will be.
1: clampacks of various special characters (we could also see a 3 pack of 1 gravatis captain and 2 Leuitenants)
2:3 kits consisting of duel Intercessor/Hellblast squad kit, duel Inceptor/Agressor squad kit, Reiver kit. (possiably a duel kit with something else, maybe a sniper style unit given the stealth armor?)
3: a dreadnought and repulsor tank kit.
we may also get chaplain and librarian Primaris minis.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
Going by there description in the Dark Imperium novel I'd be surprised if Inceptors and Agressors were a duel kit. I'd imagine both will get multiple builds from there kits, with the Gravis captain a possible build from the Agressors.
Accolade wrote: Regardless, the goal is to build a separation between the armies. It's the only way they'll be able to "encourage" people to move to the new marine standard.
I'm curious if some of the marine equivalents (I.e. Apothecary) will retain the same name or get a new designation (i.e. Standard bearer-> ancient) as they appear in the Primaris army list.
'Ancient' isn't a new designation. The Ultramarines Chapter Banner bearer, Ancient Helveticus dates back to 2002.
Actually he's quite a bit older! Almost ten years further back in 1995 in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Here's a piece of art from the rulebook allegedly showing new apothecary:
Spoiler:
Don't care about the Apothecary, but those medical servotors are brilliant. Hopefully we get some models for them.
With everything having its own data sheat, perhaps primaris characters may get some medic servitor hangarounds to soak up high damage shots.
Anyway, they look just like genestealer cultists, so it should not be to hard to fix some up.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
I was just going by how little interest I've found and the tendency for Primaris, in particular the Lieutenants and foot infantry, to go out of stock well before the Nurgle stuff and the flying Restartes blokes on bitz sites. I'm not saying they're unpopular, just less popular enough that I can't get rid of mine unless I'm willing to agree to a wildly disproportionate swap ratio.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
I was just going by how little interest I've found and the tendency for Primaris, in particular the Lieutenants and foot infantry, to go out of stock well before the Nurgle stuff and the flying Restartes blokes on bitz sites. I'm not saying they're unpopular, just less popular enough that I can't get rid of mine unless I'm willing to agree to a wildly disproportionate swap ratio.
Yeah, it's definitely a regional thing, and to be fair, it's really only the Poxwalkers the locals are interested in obtaining.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Here's a piece of art from the rulebook allegedly showing new apothecary:
Spoiler:
Not a fan of the tool the Apothecary is using there, always loved it more that everything was mounted on the wrist as a nasty medical swiss army device.
What I do like is what's happening in the background: the Imperial Fists throwing chaos marines into the abyss.
For reference, "ancient" is also an archaic term for a flag or ensign, as well as the person who was the standard bearer for a commander. For example, Iago is referred to as Othello's ancient.
There haven't been Primaris Chaplains hinted at yet, so if I had to guess, the two clampack characters that Hastings hinted at are the Apothecary and Librarian.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
I personally can't wait for GW to release the "lite" version of the starter box so I can bolster both forces on the cheap.
Elbows wrote: I would not put it beyond them...at all. I can see almost everything in the game being re-named/modified. They seem to be on a huge high doing that.
Why in the flying feth does a standard bearer have to be an "Ancient" all of a sudden? (a name oddly applied to a brand new baby space marine...) Sadly with this kind of stuff they're doing more damage to the lore/fluff than good.
Ancient makes sense because it is the British army rank for a standard bearer. Some counties also call them ensigns. It is the same rank. Ancient has been used since the Nepolionic era if memory serves me well.
Also, the company standard bearer (at least in the Ultramarines) has been an Ancient since 1994's 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines. 22years is hardly "all of a sudden".
I think the point people are making (at least I know it was what I was making) was a re-naming of traditional units to something more...unique. It's unique/Latin/pseudo-Latin, ala names like Astra Militarum. For example, Intercessors are just tactical marines with upsized bolters. Ancient is not a new name for Space Marines, but codifying the previous unit called "Standard Bearer" to "Ancient" would be a chance. It seems to be part of GA's ongoing MO to make naming less generic.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
I personally can't wait for GW to release the "lite" version of the starter box so I can bolster both forces on the cheap.
Yodhrin wrote: The actual Marines OTOH, crikey they're something. Got my Dark Imperium this morning and I sorely wish the Nurgle stuff and the Flying Lobsters were going to be more popular, 'cos I'd love to swap them for more of the basic Restartes - making truescale Proper Marines is going to be a breeze compared to prior methods.
Anecdote warning and what not, but I smirk every time I read this because there literally aren't enough people willing to sell the Nurgle half to meet the demand of people asking for it locally.
I know it's not a broader "issue", but it's still funny to me that people thing it's not popular enough.
I personally can't wait for GW to release the "lite" version of the starter box so I can bolster both forces on the cheap.
Wait, what?
That's going to be a thing?
They have done it with the Starter of AoS. They removed the Stormcast Eternal Hero in the dracoth and two Khorne heroes (the standard bearer and the Lord with the dog) and down the price to Start Collecting! prices. (In euros, it go down from 100€ to 65€, so 35€. The problem is that the heroes are separated 32,50€ for the two Khorne ones or the Stormcast one, but if you don't want those heroes, is better value)
privateer4hire wrote: Didn't it take them 2 or more years to separate out the AoS and 7th edition 40k starters if I'm not too far off the mark.
Kind of?
We got plastic kits for basically everything barring the characters within a year. The Khorne side will still be missing a Khorgorath and Bloodstoker(the whip guy) outside of boxes.
privateer4hire wrote: Didn't it take them 2 or more years to separate out the AoS and 7th edition 40k starters if I'm not too far off the mark.
Kind of?
We got plastic kits for basically everything barring the characters within a year. The Khorne side will still be missing a Khorgorath and Bloodstoker(the whip guy) outside of boxes.
and the 6th/7th edition 40k kit, we never got a kit for the new chosen. (and some people might wanna argue the cultiest kit barely counts) we did however get the helbrute,
that said we've seen sculpts of death guard that don't match whats in the box, and the odds of GW not giving us a proper kit for their new flag ship marines swiftly seems... unlikely.
Actually he's quite a bit older! Almost ten years further back in 1995 in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex.
'Ancient' you might say...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Under the heading of 'learn something every day' Ancient (meaning standard bearer) is a corruption of Ensign (meaning flag).
privateer4hire wrote: Didn't it take them 2 or more years to separate out the AoS and 7th edition 40k starters if I'm not too far off the mark.
I didn't think AoS got "separated" in the sense they made all new sprues and released them rather than separating out the ones in the actual starter set.
privateer4hire wrote: Didn't it take them 2 or more years to separate out the AoS and 7th edition 40k starters if I'm not too far off the mark.
I didn't think AoS got "separated" in the sense they made all new sprues and released them rather than separating out the ones in the actual starter set.
I feel like they've both separated things out(The "Easy Build" Liberators, Retributors, Bloodreavers, and Blood Warriors--the Liberators and Retributors have made it into the Warband and Start Collecting boxes for the Stormcast as well. Additionally, the two heroes who just went up for preorder on Saturday are split out from the main box) and then all new sprues in the form of the unit boxes and the new "Thunder & Blood" set where they took frames and did them in colored plastic.
shade1313 wrote: For reference, "ancient" is also an archaic term for a flag or ensign, as well as the person who was the standard bearer for a commander. For example, Iago is referred to as Othello's ancient.
See also Ancient Pistol in Henry IV and V; he's not just an old gun...
it does suggest the Primaris Marine was finished etc and they where prepping as early oas 2016 which is actually impressive when you consider that the first rumors and leaks only started to come out in march or so.
It's kind of a shame they made the Primus Marines new guys. It would have been easy just to say they're marines with new armor and guns, and maybe new drugs too.
I always liked to think of my marines as having centuries of experience. This guy is a lot less impressive if you figure he's only been around a week or two since he was hatched from his cloning tank or whatever.
Yeah, it does kind of undermine that famous speech by the Emperor about the Space Marines.
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear. – on the Creation of the Space Marines.
Yeah, Finest warriors, except for the fact they got outdone by a Primarch and a techpriest. I really hope they reveal at some point that the Primaris were originally based on a prototype created by the Emperor that was discovered by Roboute and Cawl. Atm it feels like they are undermining the Emperor's Legacy by surpassing his Defenders of Humanity
Well in the army book that comes with Dark Imperium it says they were made from 'scraps of the Emepror's genetic research found by Guilliman and given to Cawl'
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it does kind of undermine that famous speech by the Emperor about the Space Marines.
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
– on the Creation of the Space Marines.
Yeah, Finest warriors, except for the fact they got outdone by a Primarch and a techpriest.
I really hope they reveal at some point that the Primaris were originally based on a prototype created by the Emperor that was discovered by Roboute and Cawl.
Atm it feels like they are undermining the Emperor's Legacy by surpassing his Defenders of Humanity
My centuries of wisdom and totally not my eraser of truth (his name is dave, he used to be a porcupine) told me Rowboat just stole Corax's stuff. So that's my headcannon now.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it does kind of undermine that famous speech by the Emperor about the Space Marines.
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
– on the Creation of the Space Marines.
Yeah, Finest warriors, except for the fact they got outdone by a Primarch and a techpriest.
I really hope they reveal at some point that the Primaris were originally based on a prototype created by the Emperor that was discovered by Roboute and Cawl.
Atm it feels like they are undermining the Emperor's Legacy by surpassing his Defenders of Humanity
Well they were already in 2nd, 3rd or 4th place after the Custodeus, Grey Knights and Death Watch (who are marines, but better marines) .
I'm reading HH: Master of Mankind now and it's interesting, the Emperor outright says he never loved the Primarchs or Marines and they are weapons with delusions of grandeur. Which goes against prior fluff but is an interesting twist. Of course he was telling that to a Custodeus so who knows, maybe he lied.
RyanAvx wrote: Well in the army book that comes with Dark Imperium it says they were made from 'scraps of the Emepror's genetic research found by Guilliman and given to Cawl'
Well that's reasonable then, I guess. I suppose one can ascertain then that the Emperor was still finding out ways of improving the Space Marine project, just as the Space Marines were an improvement of the Thunder Warriors, but he got incapacitated before completing it. If the Primaris Marines were, in fact, based on the Emperor's research, then it is possible that had the Heresy not happened we would have seen Primaris Marines 10,000 years earlier.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it does kind of undermine that famous speech by the Emperor about the Space Marines.
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear. – on the Creation of the Space Marines.
Yeah, Finest warriors, except for the fact they got outdone by a Primarch and a techpriest. I really hope they reveal at some point that the Primaris were originally based on a prototype created by the Emperor that was discovered by Roboute and Cawl. Atm it feels like they are undermining the Emperor's Legacy by surpassing his Defenders of Humanity
Well they were already in 2nd, 3rd or 4th place after the Custodeus, Grey Knights and Death Watch (who are marines, but better marines) .
I'm reading HH: Master of Mankind now and it's interesting, the Emperor outright says he never loved the Primarchs or Marines and they are weapons with delusions of grandeur. Which goes against prior fluff but is an interesting twist. Of course he was telling that to a Custodeus so who knows, maybe he lied.
"You're totally my favs Goldy McGoldpants!"
Grey Knights and Death Watch are just specially trained marines though, not a different creation, and Custodians were body guards, not warriors iirc. The Thunder Warriors were closer in purpose and design to the marines.
I wonder if Primaris GK and Primaris Death Watch will be a thing. I hope GK gets a more crusader looking helmet. Because Deus Emperor Vult.
I always liked to think of my marines as having centuries of experience. This guy is a lot less impressive if you figure he's only been around a week or two since he was hatched from his cloning tank or whatever.
8th supposedly timeskips a couple centuries, right, to explain why the primaris are so established?
I always liked to think of my marines as having centuries of experience. This guy is a lot less impressive if you figure he's only been around a week or two since he was hatched from his cloning tank or whatever.
8th supposedly timeskips a couple centuries, right, to explain why the primaris are so established?
Cawl has been working on them since before Guilliman was placed in stasis after being wounded by fulgrim. The oldest Primaris remembers the scouring and primarch's being around, he even sneers at the idea of the primarch's being divinity as he remembers the imperial truth.
I highly suggest reading the dark imperium book, the way they look at the primaris is actually quite well done.
AduroT wrote: To be fair Space Marines are technology, and technology is always being improved upon.
We're talking about a setting that has had, right there at the front of every rulebook and novel, a blurb that includes the literal actual words:
To be a man in such times is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Technology in 40K isn't improved upon, because technology is considered a holy relic of the past and experimentation or innovation are heresies that get you lobotomised and turned into a monotask servitor scrubbing the same two-metre square of public toilet floor for the rest of your life. This is why Rowboat and the Primaris stick in the craw so badly for some of us - in any other scenario the Primaris would be treated as grotesque abominations to be hunted down and exterminated just like all the other genetically-deviant Space Marines that have shown up over the millennia, and Cawl would have been kept conscious as he was very slowly disassembled and discarded bit by bit into a vat of something agonisingly corrosive just for inventing a new type of bolt weapon without sanction, nevermind tinkering casually with what the vast majority of the Mechanicus consider to be one of the peak achievements of their actual god. But they can just cast all of that prior worldbuilding aside without having to think about it Because Primarch. And they'll keep doing it going forward - every time something inconvenient pops up it will simply be changed by fiat, Because Primarch.
AduroT wrote: To be fair Space Marines are technology, and technology is always being improved upon.
We're talking about a setting that has had, right there at the front of every rulebook and novel, a blurb that includes the literal actual words:
To be a man in such times is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Technology in 40K isn't improved upon, because technology is considered a holy relic of the past and experimentation or innovation are heresies that get you lobotomised and turned into a monotask servitor scrubbing the same two-metre square of public toilet floor for the rest of your life. This is why Rowboat and the Primaris stick in the craw so badly for some of us - in any other scenario the Primaris would be treated as grotesque abominations to be hunted down and exterminated just like all the other genetically-deviant Space Marines that have shown up over the millennia, and Cawl would have been kept conscious as he was very slowly disassembled and discarded bit by bit into a vat of something agonisingly corrosive just for inventing a new type of bolt weapon without sanction, nevermind tinkering casually with what the vast majority of the Mechanicus consider to be one of the peak achievements of their actual god. But they can just cast all of that prior worldbuilding aside without having to think about it Because Primarch. And they'll keep doing it going forward - every time something inconvenient pops up it will simply be changed by fiat, Because Primarch.
I always liked to think of my marines as having centuries of experience. This guy is a lot less impressive if you figure he's only been around a week or two since he was hatched from his cloning tank or whatever.
8th supposedly timeskips a couple centuries, right, to explain why the primaris are so established?
That, and the wibbly wobbly time shenanigans going on after the warp storms broke out and the astronomican was messed up. So some planets/universes had normal time, some had slower time and others had "What the crap is this speeeeeeed!" going on.
Explains how Guilliman popped up at Baal while it still was being invaded by the Nids Leviathan tendril (Which disapeared overnight with the help of... Khorne and sped up time on their moons.) with a full Crusade fleet and all the Primaris Marines.
Crazyterran wrote: Khorne protecting the Blood Angels to corrupt them later would be interesting if the GW writers pull it off...
Wait, what> Next yoyr goona tell me Necrons & Blood Angels team up to battle a common foe. Not buying it.
Well, they do enter into a state of murderous rage, to the point where they had to make a separate detachment for those who are most susceptible to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Khorne has an interest in the the Blood Angels.
Makes more sense than the Necrons and BA teaming up anyway.
I too am disappointed by the execution of Primaris marines in the fluff. I much prefer KK's suggestion that Cawl's grand project was instead new gear & drugs to improve on pre-existing space marines. Though as I understand it old marines can be Primaris-ified, so it would be interesting to see characters undergo that transformation.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I too am disappointed by the execution of Primaris marines in the fluff. I much prefer KK's suggestion that Cawl's grand project was instead new gear & drugs to improve on pre-existing space marines. Though as I understand it old marines can be Primaris-ified, so it would be interesting to see characters undergo that transformation.
...that last bit there is now in question, and it is looking like this is actually NOT the case!
NinthMusketeer wrote: I too am disappointed by the execution of Primaris marines in the fluff. I much prefer KK's suggestion that Cawl's grand project was instead new gear & drugs to improve on pre-existing space marines. Though as I understand it old marines can be Primaris-ified, so it would be interesting to see characters undergo that transformation.
...that last bit there is now in question, and it is looking like this is actually NOT the case!
Alpharius wrote: It might still be the case, but a couple of prominent BL authors are saying "Nope" currently...
I'd be fine with this. SM going into the hyperbolic geenseed chamber( ) to get to the next power level always felt like a bit of a cop out. Having legendary heroes like Grimnar and Dante facing there impending obsolescence is much more interesting.
At first I was like "oh no, that means my beloved Space Marine characters are gonna die off with time!"
But after a second thought... I was more... actually, what Space Marine Character is really interesting? Who is not just a Gary Stu that is only special by the fact that he is the best at what he does?
What personality has Azrael, for example, or Belial, besides having a cool looking model, that isn't something that could be any player-made Chapter Master or Chief-Librarian? Maybe is my RPG mind speaking here, where I always find the "core characters" of a universe very lacklusters (Like the Warcraft ones), but... to be honest, I wouldn't cry a single tear if they just erase all 40k special characters and made new ones.
Only for Bel'akor. Bel'akor is love, both in model and in fluff!
I dunno... I feel like adding a weakness to primaris would be a better way to do it. Maybe a limited lifespan (compared to non porimaris marines)? Higher maintenance requirements? Stuff like that would mean that classic SM still have a place in the universe.
Galas wrote: At first I was like "oh no, that means my beloved Space Marine characters are gonna die off with time!"
But after a second thought... I was more... actually, what Space Marine Character is really interesting? Who is not just a Gary Stu that is only special by the fact that he is the best at what he does?
What personality has Azrael, for example, or Belial, besides having a cool looking model, that isn't something that could be any player-made Chapter Master or Chief-Librarian? Maybe is my RPG mind speaking here, where I always find the "core characters" of a universe very lacklusters (Like the Warcraft ones), but... to be honest, I wouldn't cry a single tear if they just erase all 40k special characters and made new ones.
Only for Bel'akor. Bel'akor is love, both in model and in fluff!
Minotaurs Chapter Master, ASTERION MOLOC, WOULD BE MISSED IN MY HEART.
'Normal' Marines can be upgraded to Primaris, and Cawl's first batch of Primaris have been fighting for over 100 years by the time of the Dark Imperium novel.
There appears to be conflicting reports here.
It has, apparently, been claimed during the 8th edition release hype that marines can be "upgraded", however 2 well established no reason to lie BL authors have independently stated that they have been told that this is not the case and that this is not possible.
Galas wrote: At first I was like "oh no, that means my beloved Space Marine characters are gonna die off with time!"
But after a second thought... I was more... actually, what Space Marine Character is really interesting? Who is not just a Gary Stu that is only special by the fact that he is the best at what he does?
What personality has Azrael, for example, or Belial, besides having a cool looking model, that isn't something that could be any player-made Chapter Master or Chief-Librarian? Maybe is my RPG mind speaking here, where I always find the "core characters" of a universe very lacklusters (Like the Warcraft ones), but... to be honest, I wouldn't cry a single tear if they just erase all 40k special characters and made new ones.
Only for Bel'akor. Bel'akor is love, both in model and in fluff!
Azrael is mostly stubborn, I guess, and mildly jackassy.
That said I don't hate any of the current Chapter Masters outside Grimnar. I simply have ones I like more (Asterion and Tyberos) compared to others (Dante and Malakim and TuShan).
The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
Kind of agree, they don't seem to have access to any of the iconic weapons that gave the space marines character. No meltas, flamers, rocket launchers, grav guns etc. The variety of crude gothic guns the SM had is part of the charm for me. I guess we'll have to see how the upcoming kits turn out. I hope the sergeants and lieutenants have more options.
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
Oversized heads and pauldrons, models squatting like slavs, and skulls and aquillas everywhere?
I like Space Marines as any other, but the Primaris are better than the basic Tactical Marines. Is just a objetive truth. From a aesthetic and anatomy standpoint, they are just better miniatures. I like the Darth-Vader helmet better actually, and in general the aesthetics of the normal marines more than the Primaris, but one has to be realistic. Space Marines have never been a really... "great" range of miniatures, from a quality standpoint.
BrianDavion wrote: it does suggest the Primaris Marine was finished etc and they where prepping as early oas 2016 which is actually impressive when you consider that the first rumors and leaks only started to come out in march or so.
Not really. They do things years in advance. Planning for the nu40k likely started around 2015 if not sooner. Maybe even some preliminary ideas along with AOS which was started around 2012.
BTW Forgeworld is also handing those out among orders seeing I got one as well.
Crazyterran wrote: Khorne protecting the Blood Angels to corrupt them later would be interesting if the GW writers pull it off...
Wait, what> Next yoyr goona tell me Necrons & Blood Angels team up to battle a common foe. Not buying it.
Well, they do enter into a state of murderous rage, to the point where they had to make a separate detachment for those who are most susceptible to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Khorne has an interest in the the Blood Angels.
Makes more sense than the Necrons and BA teaming up anyway.
Galas wrote: I like the Darth-Vader helmet better actually, and in general the aesthetics of the normal marines more than the Primaris, but one has to be realistic.
The helmet is the last bit of Mk VIII armor from that classic sketch that we were missing.
I just feel rather lukewarm about the Primaris in general. I like the models but the fluff execution was... crude? It just feels like there is something missing, like it wasn't fully developed, and I can't put my finger on what.
Alpharius wrote: It might still be the case, but a couple of prominent BL authors are saying "Nope" currently...
I'd be fine with this. SM going into the hyperbolic geenseed chamber( ) to get to the next power level always felt like a bit of a cop out. Having legendary heroes like Grimnar and Dante facing there impending obsolescence is much more interesting.
I guess I don't find that plot idea too compelling personally because I don't care all that much about the characters. But it would be a reasonable direction to take it. I suppose what I really want to see is development of the characters rather than just the plot, to give them some identity beyond <chapter> personified.
Galas wrote: At first I was like "oh no, that means my beloved Space Marine characters are gonna die off with time!"
But after a second thought... I was more... actually, what Space Marine Character is really interesting? Who is not just a Gary Stu that is only special by the fact that he is the best at what he does?
What personality has Azrael, for example, or Belial, besides having a cool looking model, that isn't something that could be any player-made Chapter Master or Chief-Librarian? Maybe is my RPG mind speaking here, where I always find the "core characters" of a universe very lacklusters (Like the Warcraft ones), but... to be honest, I wouldn't cry a single tear if they just erase all 40k special characters and made new ones.
Only for Bel'akor. Bel'akor is love, both in model and in fluff!
Belakor, the Mary Sue of all daemon princes, is the only character to get a pass for you in 40k? :p
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
It's cool if you don't like primaris but let's be real; the models are infinitely better and the current marine range isn't 'great' it's 'large'.
Marines are the neutral mask of factions. They don't look like anything. They're bland and you can superimpose yourself on them. The closest thing they had to standing out before was that the proportions were so out of wack you could make jokes about them being deformed.
The Primaris marines aren't inherently more interesting but they're just so much better looking than gakmarines that as long as the D.U.F.F.marines stick around primaris will SEEM tyranid or harlequin level interesting just by association.
AduroT wrote: To be fair Space Marines are technology, and technology is always being improved upon.
We're talking about a setting that has had, right there at the front of every rulebook and novel, a blurb that includes the literal actual words:
To be a man in such times is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
I'm as old a fart as anyone here but this doesn't really bother me. GW has introduced new technology since 1st edition when the Vader marines replaced beakies. Since then we had the Razorback, the LR Crusader, fliers, and tons of other tech that was rediscovered or invented. It got a lot worse in recent years with Tech marines finding all sorts of cool junk that was 'always there' but never mentioned like Centurions and grav guns.
In the interest of a texture I've always assumed there is some level of invention and refinement going on but it's usually cloaked as 'rediscovery'. Sort of how Confucius never said he'd thought of Confucianism. Ancient China was also reluctant to accept the new and believed in a lost age of greatness so his writings always claimed he was just explaining the ancient secrets of the golden age.
Also the Imperium's progress has to be measured against decline in other areas, no more nanotech, no more terra forming, Star Trek style teleporters are now lost technology and very dangerous etc.
Besides I assume that at some point Guillman and the Primis' loyalty will be questioned.
Either they'll turn out to be part of an eldar plot, or be accused of being an eldar plot and discredited or they'll see what the Imperium really is and we'll get the long-foretold story line where the Ultramarines take off and start their own Imperium, with blackjack and hookers.
Any of those 3 would make for a neat storyline... IF GW is willing to try it.
Imperials working with Eldar isnt exactly Heresy, so long as it serves the Imperium's needs... and an Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus, Archmagos of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and a Living Saint of the Imperium all don't have a problem with Guilliman's return, I doubt anyone else in the Imperium has a leg to stand on if they want to complain.
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
Oversized heads and pauldrons, models squatting like slavs, and skulls and aquillas everywhere?
I like Space Marines as any other, but the Primaris are better than the basic Tactical Marines. Is just a objetive truth.
Objective truth, lol wut
Thats nonsense mate, its your personal view. Others will disagree.
the idea that Space Marines are the iconic unit to 40k is absolutely true, but Primaris Marines aren't exactly a huge change aesteticly. yes WE can pick out all sorts of little details that are differant. but to the casual observer it's well a pretty clear space Marine. big paulderons, eagle on the chest etc. sure some things are differant but lot's of varity among Marines. if GW intends for Primaris Marines to eventually be replacements this isn't exactly a huuuge huuuge change to the over all aestetic of space marines.
Calistro wrote: Is there a reason for the new marines not having the double headed eagle across their chest plate, it appears to be a single winged skull motif?
Looks like its a call back to earlier models of marines, which didn't have the aquila on the chest, but an orb with wings on either side.
Using my 12 year old starter set marines for reference.
standing alone the Primaris Marine models look nice, but putting them next to normal marines does not look good, even if it is fluff conform ... I will paint some as Deathwatch and wait for some special characters, but otherwise I will focus on Horus Heresy stuff ...
Fireball wrote: standing alone the Primaris Marine models look nice, but putting them next to normal marines does not look good, even if it is fluff conform ... I will paint some as Deathwatch and wait for some special characters, but otherwise I will focus on Horus Heresy stuff ...
Same here!
I'll have an all Primaris force for 40K, and all my 'regular marines' will be set back in time to 30K.
Seeing the primarises in the wild now, I'm glad I sold off my remaining lilmarines. I really don't like the look of the 2 sizes mixed together, just looks off.
I'd love to do an all primaris army, but I think I want to wait a while now to see if they enlarge anything else, like rhinos and stuff. Or how about some Primaris Terminators?
Galas wrote: At first I was like "oh no, that means my beloved Space Marine characters are gonna die off with time!"
But after a second thought... I was more... actually, what Space Marine Character is really interesting? Who is not just a Gary Stu that is only special by the fact that he is the best at what he does?
What personality has Azrael, for example, or Belial, besides having a cool looking model, that isn't something that could be any player-made Chapter Master or Chief-Librarian? Maybe is my RPG mind speaking here, where I always find the "core characters" of a universe very lacklusters (Like the Warcraft ones), but... to be honest, I wouldn't cry a single tear if they just erase all 40k special characters and made new ones.
Only for Bel'akor. Bel'akor is love, both in model and in fluff!
Belakor, the Mary Sue of all daemon princes, is the only character to get a pass for you in 40k? :p
I like deppresing characters, and the first Daemon Prince, cursed to never achieve godhood and basically to be forced to help the new Chaos Chosens after he tried to be one? Oh yes.
When he puts the Chaos Crown to Archaon, making him the Everchosen, it was glorious. Bel'akor would be burning in his envy!
He is the definition of what happens in Warhammer when you try to hard to break the rules of the Great Game!
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
Oversized heads and pauldrons, models squatting like slavs, and skulls and aquillas everywhere?
I like Space Marines as any other, but the Primaris are better than the basic Tactical Marines. Is just a objetive truth.
Objective truth, lol wut
Thats nonsense mate, its your personal view. Others will disagree.
No, my personal view would be if I was talking about liking or disliking the Primaris Marines. As miniatures, they are objetively better than the old Space Marines. Just like even if you like the old-hammer miniatures, the new ones (In general) are just better as a product from a objetive point of view. The technical quality is better, normally the anatomy is better, etc... you could like them or not, but liking something is irrelevant to measure his quality.
Why do people trot out "objective" like it's the trump card? Oh I can't argue with your opinion because it's just your opinion, but I have OBJECTIVE FACTS about the "goodness" of these toys therefore that trumps your opinion, and I need your opinion to be wrong
BTW, the info that existing marines can be upgraded into primaris comes directly from Pete Foley (second Live Q&A), he says it pretty clearly when he explains the primaris process, so I'd assume that this is indeed the case. Especially as no one seems to be able to name these BL authors who are supposed contradict him or produce any actual quotes.
Bull0 wrote: Why do people trot out "objective" like it's the trump card? Oh I can't argue with your opinion because it's just your opinion, but I have OBJECTIVE FACTS about the "goodness" of these toys therefore that trumps your opinion, and I need your opinion to be wrong
It's so bizarre
Meanwhile, back on topic in this thread, while also following RULE #1, to both the letter AND the intent...
Crimson wrote: BTW, the info that existing marines can be upgraded into primaris comes directly from Pete Foley (second Live Q&A), he says it pretty clearly when he explains the primaris process, so I'd assume that this is indeed the case. Especially as no one seems to be able to name these BL authors who are supposed contradict him or produce any actual quotes.
I actually do know one of the authors' names, but not sure if I'm 'supposed' to know, or say, so...
BrotherGecko wrote: The only difference between an Astartes and its Primaris equivalent are a single wound. Making every special character a Primaris would be as noticable as just giving them one more wound. There is no difference between the two other than model size so why even bother making anything primaris at all?
I still find the Primaris a confusing addition to 40k that seems more and more like GW chickened out of a hard reboot on space marines and settled for a compromise. I thought Primaris would rapidly replace regular marines but now I see no reason to buy Primaris. Clunky stock posed models that have none of what makes the marine range so great.
Oversized heads and pauldrons, models squatting like slavs, and skulls and aquillas everywhere?
I like Space Marines as any other, but the Primaris are better than the basic Tactical Marines. Is just a objetive truth.
Objective truth, lol wut
Thats nonsense mate, its your personal view. Others will disagree.
No, my personal view would be if I was talking about liking or disliking the Primaris Marines. As miniatures, they are objetively better than the old Space Marines. Just like even if you like the old-hammer miniatures, the new ones (In general) are just better as a product from a objetive point of view. The technical quality is better, normally the anatomy is better, etc... you could like them or not, but liking something is irrelevant to measure his quality.
Nope, its still just your opinion and personal view, no objective point of view about it.
They arent technically better in terms of quality, they have the same detail level as the newer marine kits from the last 3 or 4 years, and other recent GWCAD kits. There is no marked detail difference like there is between, for example, a 1995 biker and a 2013 ravenwing black knight biker.
You may prefer their size, but again this is your preference, that does not 'objectively' make them better models.
I guess you could say the proportions are objectively better.............if you think a fictional super soldier should scale to the proportions of a normal human
Bull0 wrote: Why do people trot out "objective" like it's the trump card? Oh I can't argue with your opinion because it's just your opinion, but I have OBJECTIVE FACTS about the "goodness" of these toys therefore that trumps your opinion, and I need your opinion to be wrong
It's so bizarre
Because theres objetive qualitys that we can measure in some products.
A Iphone 7 is better than a Iphone 4. Is just mathematics. The same goes for Computers, Cars, other tools, or in this case, the technical quality of a miniature.
EDIT: Ok I have seen Alpharius about 2#. I'll leave this topic here!
And I can't imagine the Primaris Reivers of other form that basically a Build Up Eversor with that description
Massed plasma is just a big armor save neg for a whooping 1 wound, or 2 if you overcharge but kill yourself in the process.
For Primaris to deal with Hordes currently the Intercessors (jump pack dudes) are good. Well good as they have the right weapon. 6 Heavy bolter shots each. The issue is for their points for are completely horrible. So im hoping come codex they get a discount like how the box set book prices them at or more. Box set they are like 160 ish. Index 225....
Massed plasma is just a big armor save neg for a whooping 1 wound, or 2 if you overcharge but kill yourself in the process.
For Primaris to deal with Hordes currently the Intercessors (jump pack dudes) are good. Well good as they have the right weapon. 6 Heavy bolter shots each. The issue is for their points for are completely horrible. So im hoping come codex they get a discount like how the box set book prices them at or more. Box set they are like 160 ish. Index 225....
Exactly!
Primaris forces are going to be small in number - Hordes are going to present a challenge to them!
Inceptors would be good against hordes were they not so absurdly overcosted. Aggressors with their rumoured flamers and (frag) missiles might be good too.
Crimson wrote: Inceptors would be good against hordes were they not so absurdly overcosted. Aggressors with their rumoured flamers and (frag) missiles might be good too.
Im thinking inceptors will be good enough.
it is 6 heavy bolters in the form of a shorter range assault weapon that can deep strike and move fast.
Obviously Primaris counter hordes by punching them to death in melee. They will be joined by Primareus Calgar who gives them +1 attack in melee, but only with the default melee weapon profile.
Crimson wrote: Inceptors would be good against hordes were they not so absurdly overcosted. Aggressors with their rumoured flamers and (frag) missiles might be good too.
Im thinking inceptors will be good enough.
it is 6 heavy bolters in the form of a shorter range assault weapon that can deep strike and move fast.
Right - the problem being the points cost for that though - that's the fly in the ointment!
Crimson wrote: Inceptors would be good against hordes were they not so absurdly overcosted. Aggressors with their rumoured flamers and (frag) missiles might be good too.
Im thinking inceptors will be good enough.
it is 6 heavy bolters in the form of a shorter range assault weapon that can deep strike and move fast.
Right - the problem being the points cost for that though - that's the fly in the ointment!
If the Primaris codex drops them to the index cost in the Dark Imperium box (159 for 3) then they're suddenly very reasonable.
As it stands, I desperately WANT to make Primaris work, and am hoping the Reivers, Aggressors and their Apothecary/Dread make them worth it.
Crimson wrote: Inceptors would be good against hordes were they not so absurdly overcosted. Aggressors with their rumoured flamers and (frag) missiles might be good too.
Im thinking inceptors will be good enough.
it is 6 heavy bolters in the form of a shorter range assault weapon that can deep strike and move fast.
Right - the problem being the points cost for that though - that's the fly in the ointment!
If the Primaris codex drops them to the index cost in the Dark Imperium box (159 for 3) then they're suddenly very reasonable.
As it stands, I desperately WANT to make Primaris work, and am hoping the Reivers, Aggressors and their Apothecary/Dread make them worth it.
We're hoping for the same thing!
As the 'flagship' models for 8E, I have to think GW won't mess them up too horribly...
Crimson wrote: BTW, the info that existing marines can be upgraded into primaris comes directly from Pete Foley (second Live Q&A), he says it pretty clearly when he explains the primaris process, so I'd assume that this is indeed the case. Especially as no one seems to be able to name these BL authors who are supposed contradict him or produce any actual quotes.
I actually do know one of the authors' names, but not sure if I'm 'supposed' to know, or say, so...
I'd also like to see a Primaris Librarian as well. And more vehicles. If they're getting a grav-tank, then I can see grav-bikes being a possible option.
Hear are my thoughts on them from my Space Wolf 1st Impression Thread
Inceptor Squad UNIT COMPOSITION: 3 Models
WARGEAR: Two Assault-Bolters (18” Assault 3, S5, AP-1, Damage 1)
Options: None
Special Abilities: >ATSKNF
>Crushing Charge: 1 in 6 chance on a charge of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
>Meteoric Descent: Deep Strike
Overview/How I would use them: They are Mobile (10” Move), reasonably tough (3+ Save, T5 and 2 Wounds) and have a good amount of Firepower (Full Squad can make 18 Heavy Bolter Shots).
They look to be set up to Deep Strike in and let loose with a barrage of Heavy Bolter shots at a target (Remember that on the Deep Strike they will still be hitting on a 3+) and then Assault a unit with a 50/50 of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
This is not how I would use them, I think of them as more of a Mid-Ranged Shooting Unit.
Deep Strike in, yes at about 13”-16” Inches away (out of Rapid Fire Range for most Units) and stay there if possible. Use them as a harassing force. When you find yourself a unit that looks like you can take down quickly, Advance and then Charge.
Stick a Wolf Priest and/or Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Jump Pack near them for the Re-Rolls.
With their range and quick movement they may also make a good Counter Charge/Backfield unit.
Anpu42 wrote: Hear are my thoughts on them from my Space Wolf 1st Impression Thread
Inceptor Squad UNIT COMPOSITION: 3 Models
WARGEAR: Two Assault-Bolters (18” Assault 3, S5, AP-1, Damage 1)
Options: None
Special Abilities: >ATSKNF
>Crushing Charge: 1 in 6 chance on a charge of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
>Meteoric Descent: Deep Strike
Overview/How I would use them: They are Mobile (10” Move), reasonably tough (3+ Save, T5 and 2 Wounds) and have a good amount of Firepower (Full Squad can make 18 Heavy Bolter Shots).
They look to be set up to Deep Strike in and let loose with a barrage of Heavy Bolter shots at a target (Remember that on the Deep Strike they will still be hitting on a 3+) and then Assault a unit with a 50/50 of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
This is not how I would use them, I think of them as more of a Mid-Ranged Shooting Unit.
Deep Strike in, yes at about 13”-16” Inches away (out of Rapid Fire Range for most Units) and stay there if possible. Use them as a harassing force. When you find yourself a unit that looks like you can take down quickly, Advance and then Charge.
Stick a Wolf Priest and/or Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Jump Pack near them for the Re-Rolls.
With their range and quick movement they may also make a good Counter Charge/Backfield unit.
i agree at 18" range guns you should be kiteing. you should be able to out run anything that isnt a vehicle or some flavor of fast attack squad.
Anpu42 wrote: Hear are my thoughts on them from my Space Wolf 1st Impression Thread
Inceptor Squad UNIT COMPOSITION: 3 Models
WARGEAR: Two Assault-Bolters (18” Assault 3, S5, AP-1, Damage 1)
Options: None
Special Abilities: >ATSKNF
>Crushing Charge: 1 in 6 chance on a charge of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
>Meteoric Descent: Deep Strike
Overview/How I would use them: They are Mobile (10” Move), reasonably tough (3+ Save, T5 and 2 Wounds) and have a good amount of Firepower (Full Squad can make 18 Heavy Bolter Shots).
They look to be set up to Deep Strike in and let loose with a barrage of Heavy Bolter shots at a target (Remember that on the Deep Strike they will still be hitting on a 3+) and then Assault a unit with a 50/50 of inflicting a Mortal Wound.
This is not how I would use them, I think of them as more of a Mid-Ranged Shooting Unit.
Deep Strike in, yes at about 13”-16” Inches away (out of Rapid Fire Range for most Units) and stay there if possible. Use them as a harassing force. When you find yourself a unit that looks like you can take down quickly, Advance and then Charge.
Stick a Wolf Priest and/or Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Jump Pack near them for the Re-Rolls.
With their range and quick movement they may also make a good Counter Charge/Backfield unit.
i agree at 18" range guns you should be kiteing. you should be able to out run anything that isnt a vehicle or some flavor of fast attack squad.
Yes, I think they would make a good alternate to the 4x Heavy Bolter Devastator Squads, Heavy Bolter Centurions or 5x Heavy Bolter Long Fangs.
Just got my DI set today and boy are the models even prettier in person!!
One thing I'd like to settle is the question of the "Ancient" space marine from the box. Taken directly from the "mini Codex" that comes in the book:
"the battle standards of the space marines are beacons of inspiration. Handwoven by skilled artisans most are treasured relics many thousands of years old, and no true battle brother can look upon them without feeling a surge of pride in his breast. Conversely, the thought of losing such a precious artifact to the grasping claws of the foe is beyond the countenance. It is for this reason that only proven heroes arechosen for the rank of Ancient, and given the honor of carrying the banner into battle."
So Ancient is a reference to the age of the standard and the special rank of the banner bearer.
I'm actually hoping the Dreadnought will be decent at anti-horde duty. It looks like it has a super-assault cannon, a rotor cannon, and two storm bolters. That's more than enough for some serious horde shredding.
cuda1179 wrote: I'm actually hoping the Dreadnought will be decent at anti-horde duty. It looks like it has a super-assault cannon, a rotor cannon, and two storm bolters. That's more than enough for some serious horde shredding.
And we haven't seen the rules for the mini-missile launchers that the dread and tank have.
cuda1179 wrote: I'm actually hoping the Dreadnought will be decent at anti-horde duty. It looks like it has a super-assault cannon, a rotor cannon, and two storm bolters. That's more than enough for some serious horde shredding.
And we haven't seen the rules for the mini-missile launchers that the dread and tank have.
It might be an even better dakka platform than that. My impression was that the "two storm bolters" were actually twin heavy bolters/assault bolters--or at least auto bolt rifles or similar. which would increase the dakka dice factor by a few more. Twin assault bolters would be rather interesting since the dreadnought would be able to use them in assault as well...
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
That depends. Is this still the same GW that thought Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus needed their own separate books?
You read Index Imperium 2?
Cause they're the same thing now. Congrats. You won, Skitarii got their flavor removed so people like you can now stop crying about the whole "Waah, they were two books!" nonsense.
I would expect Primaris to be part of a generic Codex: Space Marines. Why? Because it would be a way for them to do a big update/release without having to do too much all at once.
I fully expect Death Guard to get their own book however, done up in the vein of "Disciples of Tzeentch" for AoS where it includes the "mortal" followers(The Death Guard in this case) and the Daemonic stuff.
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
They might, but depending on the size of the Primaris range you could end up with a codex that's nearly the same size as the rulebook. The 7th SM codex is only 80 pages shorter than the 8th rule book. Trimming the 7th fat would reduce the page count somewhat, but those saved pages could easily be filled with the more recent units(Terminator variants, Contemptor dread and the Stormhawk), new background and new 8th rules. Having the Primaris as a separate book that's fully compatible with the SM Codex thanks to the keyword system makes more sense to me. Hopefully we will find out either way soon.
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
They might, but depending on the size of the Primaris range you could end up with a codex that's nearly the same size as the rulebook. The 7th SM codex is only 80 pages shorter than the 8th rule book. Trimming the 7th fat would reduce the page count somewhat, but those saved pages could easily be filled with the more recent units(Terminator variants, Contemptor dread and the Stormhawk), new background and new 8th rules. Having the Primaris as a separate book that's fully compatible with the SM Codex thanks to the keyword system makes more sense to me. Hopefully we will find out either way soon.
True, they already have just as many, if not more, units than stand-alone Harlequins
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
That depends. Is this still the same GW that thought Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus needed their own separate books?
You read Index Imperium 2?
Cause they're the same thing now. Congrats. You won, Skitarii got their flavor removed so people like you can now stop crying about the whole "Waah, they were two books!" nonsense.
I would expect Primaris to be part of a generic Codex: Space Marines. Why? Because it would be a way for them to do a big update/release without having to do too much all at once.
I fully expect Death Guard to get their own book however, done up in the vein of "Disciples of Tzeentch" for AoS where it includes the "mortal" followers(The Death Guard in this case) and the Daemonic stuff.
Skitarii didn't get their flavour removed more than Tempestus Scions being again Imperial Guard units.
Is like having "Codex: Space Marines Scouts". Just absurd.
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
That depends. Is this still the same GW that thought Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus needed their own separate books?
You read Index Imperium 2?
Cause they're the same thing now. Congrats. You won, Skitarii got their flavor removed so people like you can now stop crying about the whole "Waah, they were two books!" nonsense.
I would expect Primaris to be part of a generic Codex: Space Marines. Why? Because it would be a way for them to do a big update/release without having to do too much all at once.
I fully expect Death Guard to get their own book however, done up in the vein of "Disciples of Tzeentch" for AoS where it includes the "mortal" followers(The Death Guard in this case) and the Daemonic stuff.
Skitarii didn't get their flavour removed more than Tempestus Scions being again Imperial Guard units.
Is like having "Codex: Space Marines Scouts". Just absurd.
Spoiler:
Codex: Adeptus Custodes, I'm looking at you
Actually, yeah. Skitarii did get their flavor removed.
Heard of a little thing called "Doctrina Imperatives"?
Pretty sure the Dev's comments in the Primaris release article have indicated we will get a Primaris codex. In that article they talked about collecting it as a "New army" with only primaris units.
I'd be very surprised if we saw the Primaris show up in the SM codex, other than a one-off elite unit you could add (kind of like Scions being used in Imperial Guard armies).
NinthMusketeer wrote: Primaris and Death Guard are incomplete armies at the moment, so it's probably a bit early to judge their effectiveness as such.
Well if AoS is anything to go by all armies will only be 2 or 3 units anyways.
The two armies from the AoS starter are indeed two-three units. Or your statement is a bold-faced lie, I'm not sure which.
Bonesplitters 2 units savage on foot savage on pig head swap for more units.
IronJawz Black orcs, orcs on big pigs, and other orks "new ones"
daughters of khane 2 units
plauge rats censor bearers or monks and pult.
tzeench mortals/ beastmen/ beastmen on disk.
Ect ect.
Could it be that they will just include all of them with vanilla space marines for a normal Space Marine codex?
Pretty much killing 2 birds with 1 stone there. At least that's just my opinion on the matter.
That depends. Is this still the same GW that thought Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus needed their own separate books?
You read Index Imperium 2?
Cause they're the same thing now. Congrats. You won, Skitarii got their flavor removed so people like you can now stop crying about the whole "Waah, they were two books!" nonsense.
I would expect Primaris to be part of a generic Codex: Space Marines. Why? Because it would be a way for them to do a big update/release without having to do too much all at once.
I fully expect Death Guard to get their own book however, done up in the vein of "Disciples of Tzeentch" for AoS where it includes the "mortal" followers(The Death Guard in this case) and the Daemonic stuff.
Skitarii didn't get their flavour removed more than Tempestus Scions being again Imperial Guard units.
Is like having "Codex: Space Marines Scouts". Just absurd.
Spoiler:
Codex: Adeptus Custodes, I'm looking at you
Actually, yeah. Skitarii did get their flavor removed.
Heard of a little thing called "Doctrina Imperatives"?
Yeah, the Mass Effect Harvinger rippoff that existed only since... the 7th edition codex. Not a great loss, really. It isn't like they can't make that again when they release a Adeptus Mechanicus Codex.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Primaris and Death Guard are incomplete armies at the moment, so it's probably a bit early to judge their effectiveness as such.
Well if AoS is anything to go by all armies will only be 2 or 3 units anyways.
more specificly armies will consist of what they can put out in one go. we saw it with admech when admech and skitarri where split. so this is nothing new
cuda1179 wrote: I'm actually hoping the Dreadnought will be decent at anti-horde duty. It looks like it has a super-assault cannon, a rotor cannon, and two storm bolters. That's more than enough for some serious horde shredding.
And we haven't seen the rules for the mini-missile launchers that the dread and tank have.
the tank we've seen some rumors that they're absicly just frag assault launchers IIRC. but yeah the dreadnought missiles. it could JUST be a missile launcher, but for all we know it'll fire 6 frag missiles. 6d6 shots would really clear out the hordes
I would prefer primaris and regular marines were split. I plan on taking exclusively primaris so i'd rather avoid the clutter and extra book cost for regular SM. Plus i'm not sure there is enough room for fluff, info on new founding primaris chapters and all the other stuff in one book. It would end up being one thick expensive tome...and i'd rather have two cheaper ones in this case especially since the primaris seem to function a bit differently.
The skitarii and cult mechanicus being merged is kind of understandable cause the skitarii didn't really have an HQ, or any bizarre units. I don't think much was gained fluff wise in keeping them seperate though. Those books were average in terms of art and fluff imo.
When do you guys think they will show us more new models/stuff? This week has been a bit boring for me, i'm not buying dark imperium until I get a better picture of where primaris and DG are going to end up.
The split doesn't make any sense for armies that have both standard Marines and Primaris Marines though. Especially since the big four have been depicted as having both.
What I am hoping for is for old units that are web-exclusive are phased out of the codex to make room for the new units. Since they will still have rules in the Index, it isn't a huge loss. Also, given that the unit datasheets are smaller now, the book can be condensed a little anyway.
I am really looking forward to the other types of new units. I want close combat Primaris Marines. Perhaps BA, DA, and SW will have exclusive types of Primaris Marines as well.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The split doesn't make any sense for armies that have both standard Marines and Primaris Marines though. Especially since the big four have been depicted as having both.
It makes sense in the context of not having one gargantuan codex. Think about it this way; instead of one combined codex for $50 we get a primaris for $30 and a vanilla marine for $30. Now for players who have both that kind-of sucks since they pay an extra $10, but all the players who are only using one side of things (which seems to be a significant number) don't have to spend and lug around a bunch of rules they don't use. GW could have put all four indexes in one book for $80 but I suspect that would be received poorly to say the least. Similarly they could have released each army as an individual codex, which may have been cheaper for some but a pain in the ass for many. Both ends of the extreme are bad so GW has to look for a happy medium.
You're right, make the people who are playing their army by the fluff pay twice for their codexes. Also, punish people with existing SM armies. That's a winning strategy.
One of the things that I most loved about greenskins in fantasy what all the options of the army... and one of the things that I most dislike about AoS is the "mini factions" with 3-4 units.
So... mi vote goes to a combined Generic Space Marine Codex. Give me options! You can put a 300 pages codex for under 35€ GW, just do it!
casvalremdeikun wrote: You're right, make the people who are playing their army by the fluff pay twice for their codexes. Also, punish people with existing SM armies. That's a winning strategy.
that o rconceviably simply not give non primaris codices any ink.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: One of the things that I most loved about greenskins in fantasy what all the options of the army... and one of the things that I most dislike about AoS is the "mini factions" with 3-4 units.
So... mi vote goes to a combined Generic Space Marine Codex. Give me options! You can put a 300 pages codex for under 35€ GW, just do it!
this, the "small codex faction with 5 units" is EXACTLY my fear of what 8th could do. a primaris marines codex instead of a space marine codex would expand that fear considerab ly
I'd be content with a hardback with both primarus and regular astartes. And then two softback smaller ones, one for primaris and the other for regular marines. The only question is do marines sell well enough for them to justify putting in that kind of effort. I'm not overly crazy about hardback books for gaming. And I definitely don't need two big ones on the tabletop (rulebook plus faction codex) I thought the Blood Bowl deathzone books were great.
casvalremdeikun wrote: You're right, make the people who are playing their army by the fluff pay twice for their codexes. Also, punish people with existing SM armies. That's a winning strategy.
that o rconceviably simply not give non primaris codices any ink.
I think as long as there are more being produced, they will still have a codex. And given that the majority of the SM line has been revamped in the last five years, I would be quite surprised if they discontinued it. And again, when nearly every depiction of the Primaris Marines has them fighting alongside standard Marines, I think it would be quite unfluffy for them to be in separate books.
And if we are heading into an age of micro-codexes, that will suck terribly.
As for the space of the SM codex and how big the book is, look at how much stuff is duplicated in the 2017 book. Practically every unit has duplicate fluff in two separate areas of the codex. That is something that could, conceivably go away.
casvalremdeikun wrote: You're right, make the people who are playing their army by the fluff pay twice for their codexes. Also, punish people with existing SM armies. That's a winning strategy.
I think you misinterpreted me, since that is not at all what I said.
The thing is, unless they come up with a new race, they aren't introducing new armies. Any new kit(s) should be additions to existing ones which should be wrapped up with the updated codex for the army, since that army hasn't disappeared on an exploded planet.
The current "Index: Imperium 1" is a good size, and you could simply take out the BA/DA/DW/SW/GK/LotD portions and make it like the old Codex: Codex Marines.
The non-codex marines take up over 100 pages in that book. There are over 100 non-Codex unit profiles in that book. That doesn't count profiles and units for RG, UM, IF, CF, WS, and Salamanders.
If every codex unit and codex transport that exists right now gets a Primaris clone, that's 25 more profiles. So if GW comes up with a mix of 50 brand new units and vehicles, and adds 40 more pages of fluff to the current Index, we would get a book that's as big as the current Index: Codex Space Marines and Non-Codex Friends.
Yeah, the Mass Effect Harvinger rippoff that existed only since... the 7th edition codex. Not a great loss, really. It isn't like they can't make that again when they release a Adeptus Mechanicus Codex.
Spoiler:
Damm Tyranid corrupted Mechanicus and Skitarii!
Find me an official Codex: Skitarii that existed before 7th edition.
And since the Skitarii got their own section in the Adeptus Mechanicus part of Index Imperium 2, yet were specifically denied their Doctrina Imperatives...
Thargrim wrote:The skitarii and cult mechanicus being merged is kind of understandable cause the skitarii didn't really have an HQ, or any bizarre units.
So? Shadowseers and Troupe Masters weren't HQs for Harlequins before.
Harlequins and Skitarii both had HQ-less lists. It would have taken literally nothing for them to add in a Skitarii HQ option built using the standard boxes.
I don't think much was gained fluff wise in keeping them seperate though. Those books were average in terms of art and fluff imo.
There was plenty gained fluff-wise in keeping them separated. One was the lunatic fringe with devoted hymnals(Canticles of the Omnissiah) giving them power and strength.
The other was the regimented, militarized side of the Cult Mechanicus which could have their "safety limitations" overridden by a Priest who wasn't exposed to dangers(Doctrina Imperatives granting both benefits AND downsides).
Additionally, for whatever reason we lost our 2W Alphas. Which is just dumb.
I'm not agains't Skitarii HQ's, or they having special rules fo the Skitarii troops. But they don't need a separate codex to all of that. But again, I'm totally agaisn't the division of a proper faction codex in a thousand subfactions mini-codex ,at least not until those factions have their own weight to ammerit a codex, like Space Wolves vs Black Templars.
Galas wrote: I'm not agains't Skitarii HQ's, or they having special rules fo the Skitarii troops. But they don't need a separate codex to all of that.
Actually, they did need a "separate codex for all of that". Because that's how codices work. It was always the case before that "Codex=Army".
But again, I'm totally agaisn't the division of a proper faction codex in a thousand subfactions mini-codex ,at least not until those factions have their own weight to ammerit a codex, like Space Wolves vs Black Templars.
Yeah, the Mass Effect Harvinger rippoff that existed only since... the 7th edition codex. Not a great loss, really. It isn't like they can't make that again when they release a Adeptus Mechanicus Codex.
Spoiler:
Damm Tyranid corrupted Mechanicus and Skitarii!
Find me an official Codex: Skitarii that existed before 7th edition.
And since the Skitarii got their own section in the Adeptus Mechanicus part of Index Imperium 2, yet were specifically denied their Doctrina Imperatives...
Thargrim wrote:The skitarii and cult mechanicus being merged is kind of understandable cause the skitarii didn't really have an HQ, or any bizarre units.
So? Shadowseers and Troupe Masters weren't HQs for Harlequins before.
Harlequins and Skitarii both had HQ-less lists. It would have taken literally nothing for them to add in a Skitarii HQ option built using the standard boxes.
I don't think much was gained fluff wise in keeping them seperate though. Those books were average in terms of art and fluff imo.
There was plenty gained fluff-wise in keeping them separated. One was the lunatic fringe with devoted hymnals(Canticles of the Omnissiah) giving them power and strength.
The other was the regimented, militarized side of the Cult Mechanicus which could have their "safety limitations" overridden by a Priest who wasn't exposed to dangers(Doctrina Imperatives granting both benefits AND downsides).
Additionally, for whatever reason we lost our 2W Alphas. Which is just dumb.
Those "safety limitations" just increased BS and WS by various amounts.
Kanluwen wrote: It was always the case before that "Codex=Army".
Not really. We've had codexes before that had different subfaction army lists in the back. We've had codexes where selecting certain characters changed the army. There's nothing inherent in having access to a certain special rule that requires them to be in a separate book.
Aggressors - Gravis clad warriors with shoulder mounted missile launchers and flame gauntlets.
Reivers - Armor that is adapted for stealth. Death's Head masks and a extra large left pauldron. Heavy Bolt Pistol and an extra large combat knife with a disruptor field. Infiltration and close combat specialists.
The new vehicle mentioned is the Overlord. It is described as being similar to the Corvus Blackstars of the Deathwatch.
I enjoyed the Orbital Drop of the Inceptors and the follow on Orbital Drop from the Repulsors on Raukus. Makes me wonder if the new tank will have some kind of deep-strike mechanic.
The Psycho - B&C
Quote
First out were the Primaris Aggressors. They wore battleplate of a similar type to Felix’s, but more massively armoured: the Gravis class. Before they had exited the troop bay, missiles shot from their shoulder-mounted racks, their exhaust filling the craft’s troop compartments.
New equivalent to the Devestators, in Gravis armor with shoulder mounted missile racks (Cyclone missile launchers?)
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The Overlord shook. Its armour was massively thick, and its engines prodigiously powerful. The new craft made Thunderhawks look like toys. As with so much the primarch had commissioned, the Overlord hearkened back to older designs of insertion craft, improved by the boundless creativity of Belisarius Cawl.
Possibly the plastic Thunderhawk that's been mentioned by Hastings in the past? I dunno.
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He glanced at his concilia psykana, several Space Marine and Primaris Librarians stationed close at hand.
As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
So from all the new units we are aware of Primaris wise, what will we be getting in July?
Codex Primaris/ or included with Space marines, and on that would Roboute Guilliman really be in the Primaris codex or both? I'm leaning towards a combined codex I don't think GW will put Guilliman in 2 codices, 3 if you include the indexes, that's why I think it will be a combined, won't be surprised if its individual, just my thoughts.
And for the rest will we get the following +- the items from Dark Imperium?
Captain
Lieutenant
Ancient
Librarian
Apothecary
Redemptor Dreadnought
Repulsor tank
Overload flyer
Aggressors
Reavers
Hellblasters
Intercessors
Inceptors
That's a good summary. Hastings mentioned there would be two vehicles and a flyer. A Repulsor variant? Or even an entirely different chassis?
And the info on the Overlord gunships has been conflicting, I do not have a copy to verify either way, but GH's DI seems to imply that the Overlord dropship is much bigger than a Thunderhawk which makes it unlikely we will get a plastic kit for it. I think that flyer kit could be a smaller gunship not mentioned so far, maybe something between a Stormraven and a Thunderhawk?
Warhams-77 wrote: That's a good summary. Hastings mentioned there would be two vehicles and a flyer. A Repulsor variant? Or even an entirely different chassis?
And the info on the Overlord gunships has been conflicting, I do not have a copy to verify either way, but GH's DI seems to imply that the Overlord dropship is much bigger than a Thunderhawk which makes it unlikely we will get a plastic kit for it. I think that flyer kit could be a smaller gunship not mentioned so far, maybe something between a Stormraven and a Thunderhawk?
the second vehicle would be the Dreadnought. as for the flier we'll have to see DI also noted aanother type of insertion craft for Inceptor Marines, so it's a safe bet that there are a number of support units we may not see outside of fluff,
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
Don't give GW any ideas. Seriously, though, for all those worried out "microdexes" becoming a thing, GW has actually reversed that trend in AoS. They combined Khorne and Tzeentch mortals with daemons, and brought all Stormcast chambers back into one battletome with the recent releases. The big question is whether or not the "legacy" elf and death factions will be recombined at some point. If they are, I'll be convinced Primaris will just be a unit choice for different flavors of power armor (which I would prefer).
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
So it occurred to me... if Primaris + Vanilla Marines are all in one codex and GW wants to update just the Primaris marine dataslates, everyone gets to buy a whole new codex.
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
What Chapter doesn't use Primaris?
No explicitly named Chapters so far, but the fluff in their booklet said that not all chapters have been accepting of the Primaris Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So it occurred to me... if Primaris + Vanilla Marines are all in one codex and GW wants to update just the Primaris marine dataslates, everyone gets to buy a whole new codex.
What's your point? That is true of every unit in the codex.
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
What Chapter doesn't use Primaris?
No explicitly named Chapters so far, but the fluff in their booklet said that not all chapters have been accepting of the Primaris Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So it occurred to me... if Primaris + Vanilla Marines are all in one codex and GW wants to update just the Primaris marine dataslates, everyone gets to buy a whole new codex.
What's your point? That is true of every unit in the codex.
If the Primaris and Vanilla marines have their own codex and GW wants to update the primaris marine dataslates, only players utilizing primaris marines have to buy a new codex that is cheaper than a combined one would be. As opposed to every marine player of any type needing to buy a new codex at price 2X, only primaris players need to buy a new codex at price 1X.
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
What Chapter doesn't use Primaris?
No explicitly named Chapters so far, but the fluff in their booklet said that not all chapters have been accepting of the Primaris Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So it occurred to me... if Primaris + Vanilla Marines are all in one codex and GW wants to update just the Primaris marine dataslates, everyone gets to buy a whole new codex.
What's your point? That is true of every unit in the codex.
If the Primaris and Vanilla marines have their own codex and GW wants to update the primaris marine dataslates, only players utilizing primaris marines have to buy a new codex that is cheaper than a combined one would be. As opposed to every marine player of any type needing to buy a new codex at price 2X, only primaris players need to buy a new codex at price 1X.
We've seen GW combining AoS Battletomes with Disciples of Tzeentch, Blades of Khorne and the current Stormcast Eternals book.
There were rumors of different sarcophagus types being in the kit. Agreed on fingers crossed, though. I definitely want to give my Redemptor actual heads.
Ragnar69 wrote: As all chapters can use Primaris, I think it's a safe bet that they wil receive their own codex. Else you would have to re-print all of their rules in 4 different marine dexes.
Unless SW or BA Primaris get different rules/units...
Not all chapters use them. And all SM use Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Land Raiders, does that mean they should be in a separate book called Vehicles of the Astartes?
What Chapter doesn't use Primaris?
No explicitly named Chapters so far, but the fluff in their booklet said that not all chapters have been accepting of the Primaris Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: So it occurred to me... if Primaris + Vanilla Marines are all in one codex and GW wants to update just the Primaris marine dataslates, everyone gets to buy a whole new codex.
What's your point? That is true of every unit in the codex.
If the Primaris and Vanilla marines have their own codex and GW wants to update the primaris marine dataslates, only players utilizing primaris marines have to buy a new codex that is cheaper than a combined one would be. As opposed to every marine player of any type needing to buy a new codex at price 2X, only primaris players need to buy a new codex at price 1X.
We've seen GW combining AoS Battletomes with Disciples of Tzeentch, Blades of Khorne and the current Stormcast Eternals book.
I've been trying to point this out for months. Starting to think people have me on ignore.
Like most of the range so far there doesn't seem to be a direct Primaris version/replacement of Terminators. The closest seems to be the Agressors, described in the Dark Imperium novel as wearing a version of the Gravis armour with shoulder mounted missile launchers and flamer fists
Im talking about the merits/downsides of each approach rather than what I think is likely. If I had to guess Id bet on a Primaris-only codex in the next month or two followed by a Primaris-Vanilla combo dex next year.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Im talking about the merits/downsides of each approach rather than what I think is likely. If I had to guess Id bet on a Primaris-only codex in the next month or two followed by a Primaris-Vanilla combo dex next year.
But that can be said about everything... why have a Dark Angels Codex when you can split in in Deathwing and Ravenkwing? What if GW wants to change just the datasleets of Deathwing, should players that only play Ravenwing buy a new complete Dark Angels Codex?
Its a good point, one I mentioned earlier about both extremes being bad. IMO it comes down to the likelyhood of a player using a sub-faction on its own and the practicality of the book in question. For example, the number of people that mix various dark angels is likely larger than those who run just ravenwing or deathwing, so catering to the majority would mean a united DA codex. Further, the price jump going from theoretical codex deathwing to a full DA one is small enough that the niche players are unlikely to be bothered. But if we go up a step and have a codex: 50 shades of space marine which is the sole source for all space marine armies of any sort then a great deal of DA, GK, Primaris, etc players will begrudge having to pay a significant amount more for content they are not using.
From the perspective of a guy with a serious spontaneous spending habit, if I bought a book for my one army and had rules for several others inside it, I would probably end up buying more models. If I have to buy a book shelf to house every individual sub factions codex, I would be less inclined to buy another army.
Is 40k getting the AoS treatment where all the unit information is in a pdf on the product page of the website?
Chopxsticks wrote: From the perspective of a guy with a serious spontaneous spending habit, if I bought a book for my one army and had rules for several others inside it, I would probably end up buying more models. If I have to buy a book shelf to house every individual sub factions codex, I would be less inclined to buy another army.
Is 40k getting the AoS treatment where all the unit information is in a pdf on the product page of the website?
new units will get their stats in a data card, so DA players who use Primaris Marines won't nesscarily have to buy codex spaceMarines to use the new Primaris stuff.
Chopxsticks wrote: From the perspective of a guy with a serious spontaneous spending habit, if I bought a book for my one army and had rules for several others inside it, I would probably end up buying more models. If I have to buy a book shelf to house every individual sub factions codex, I would be less inclined to buy another army.
Is 40k getting the AoS treatment where all the unit information is in a pdf on the product page of the website?
as a guy that has pretty much every army except nids im stoked
Again I think the sheer size of a potential combined Codex is a big mark against it. AoS does have two combined Chaos books. But neither has anywhere near the number of units that even a vanilla SM Codex would(quick count of the non Primaris and SC vanilla entries in the index comes to sixty two units, compared to twenty five including SC in Disiples of Tzeentch). Sure the Index books are great basic rules compilations. But they are sorely lacking in every other area covered by a traditional Codex.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Again I think the sheer size of a potential combined Codex is a big mark against it. AoS does have two combined Chaos books. But neither has anywhere near the number of units that even a vanilla SM Codex would(quick count of the non Primaris and SC vanilla entries in the index comes to sixty two units, compared to twenty five including SC in Disiples of Tzeentch). Sure the Index books are great basic rules compilations. But they are sorely lacking in every other area covered by a traditional Codex.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Again I think the sheer size of a potential combined Codex is a big mark against it. AoS does have two combined Chaos books. But neither has anywhere near the number of units that even a vanilla SM Codex would(quick count of the non Primaris and SC vanilla entries in the index comes to sixty two units, compared to twenty five including SC in Disiples of Tzeentch). Sure the Index books are great basic rules compilations. But they are sorely lacking in every other area covered by a traditional Codex.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Im talking about the merits/downsides of each approach rather than what I think is likely. If I had to guess Id bet on a Primaris-only codex in the next month or two followed by a Primaris-Vanilla combo dex next year.
But that can be said about everything... why have a Dark Angels Codex when you can split in in Deathwing and Ravenkwing? What if GW wants to change just the datasleets of Deathwing, should players that only play Ravenwing buy a new complete Dark Angels Codex?
This has been my point since the beginning. It is true of every unit, because not everyone owns one of everything.
As for the size of the codex, a great deal of that can be dealt with with good formatting. There really aren't that many named Primaris units yet, so it isn't like the book suddenly becomes gigantic with them included. I see GW discontinuing some kits anyway. They are already hurting for shelf space.
maybe they'll bring out these cheap intro 'dexes then do the big expensive campaign-type books & have free pdfs for any unit that changes? As i understand it, all new boxes will have the data sheets inside.
If Gillamonster is editing the codex astartes because it sucks now, why would GW even bother splitting things up into chapters that are or not compliant with the codex which is currently being altered?
Of course I also wonder why non-compliant translates to lack of access to relic type stuff (cataphractii/tartaros armor, contemptors...etc etc) and not an actual restructuring like SW typically have (but not really when you get down to it). Non-compliant just means no new stuff and more of its less efficient equivalents.
They need to just do a $60 book. Change the fluff on compliant/non-cpmpliant to not actually matter (becaise it doesn't anymore). Give UM some more new UM only stuff. Create a generic astartes army list and then just like the 3rd edition books of old, codex specific books add some specific stuff and that is all.Basically make it like the HH red books.
BrotherGecko wrote: . Create a generic astartes army list and then just like the 3rd edition books of old, codex specific books add some specific stuff and that is all.Basically make it like the HH red books.
I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
BrotherGecko wrote: . Create a generic astartes army list and then just like the 3rd edition books of old, codex specific books add some specific stuff and that is all.Basically make it like the HH red books.
I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
They did that with Kharadron Overlords and it works quite well. In fact taking the setup they have and porting it to 40k marines would work perfectly.
BrotherGecko wrote: . Create a generic astartes army list and then just like the 3rd edition books of old, codex specific books add some specific stuff and that is all.Basically make it like the HH red books.
I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
They did that with Kharadron Overlords and it works quite well. In fact taking the setup they have and porting it to 40k marines would work perfectly.
Mind giving a run-down of what the Kharadon stuff is like?
Sure thing! It may very well be relevant to a future Marine Codex.
For starters, it falls under a category of allegiance, which essentially means that you only get the benefits if everything in your army in Kharadron. In 40k this would mean the benefits only apply if the whole army is Space Marines.
There are three categories of six traits each and you get one trait out of each category (essentially a big, medium, and small trait), allowing you to customize your force based on what traits you pick.
However, there is another option of going with a specific Sky Port. If you do this then the traits you get are set and you can't customize them, but you get an extra benefit on top of the traits you have. In 40k terms, this would mean your codex chapters of Ultramarines, Salamanders, Iron Hands, etc would have fixed traits but would also get an extra side-benefit for taking that restriction.
Sure thing! It may very well be relevant to a future Marine Codex.
For starters, it falls under a category of allegiance, which essentially means that you only get the benefits if everything in your army in Kharadron. In 40k this would mean the benefits only apply if the whole army is Space Marines.
There are three categories of six traits each and you get one trait out of each category (essentially a big, medium, and small trait), allowing you to customize your force based on what traits you pick.
However, there is another option of going with a specific Sky Port. If you do this then the traits you get are set and you can't customize them, but you get an extra benefit on top of the traits you have. In 40k terms, this would mean your codex chapters of Ultramarines, Salamanders, Iron Hands, etc would have fixed traits but would also get an extra side-benefit for taking that restriction.
Each Kharadron port-city (equivalent to Chapter or regiment) has its own interpretation of their society's code of conduct. They do this by choosing one particular trait to emphasise from each of the three trait types: Artycle, Amendment, Footnote (described as big, medium, & small above) and as Ninth said, they only apply if the entire army has the Kharadron keyword. I personally would expect this to be detachment based in 40k though, not least because AoS doesn't have detachments.
There are six of each trait type available to all cities, with some named major ports having unique traits as well as the option of a bonus footnote from a restricted list. The trait types each affect how the army plays on the battlefield; only one affects army composition and even then it just allows an extra rare artefact to be taken:
The Artycles have army-wide always-on effects and range from morale re-rolls if you're in certain parts of the battlefield to fixed value "runs" for the ships.
Amendments tend to have things that affect deployment or are otherwise one-shot but don't need to be activated like being able to run and shoot in the first turn.
Footnotes, the third type, are all one-shot effects roughly equivalent to a Warlord Trait in power level (indeed, one of the Warlord traits available to an Admiral is to take an extra Footnote) like a bonus to heal a ship, or to (nearly) auto-pass a Morale check.
insaniak wrote: I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
The problem with the Traits system from 4th Ed, which was also the problem with the Doctrine system the Guard had, is that the downsides weren't downsides, so you were getting bonuses for free.
For instance, one Trait that the Marines could take was "No Allies". Well, if you never intended on taking allies (and back then allies meant Inquisition/GKs/SoBs and that's it), then it wasn't really a downside. Same for Doctrines. You lost the ability to take a bunch of units (Ogryn, Sanctioned Psykers, Ratlings, etc.) but if you never intended to bring those units then you weren't really losing anything.
The same thing happened with the 3.5 Codex. Iron Warriors have to give up 2 slots they were never going to use in the first place? Oh no!!!
insaniak wrote: I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
The problem with the Traits system from 4th Ed, which was also the problem with the Doctrine system the Guard had, is that the downsides weren't downsides, so you were getting bonuses for free.
For instance, one Trait that the Marines could take was "No Allies". Well, if you never intended on taking allies (and back then allies meant Inquisition/GKs/SoBs and that's it), then it wasn't really a downside. Same for Doctrines. You lost the ability to take a bunch of units (Ogryn, Sanctioned Psykers, Ratlings, etc.) but if you never intended to bring those units then you weren't really losing anything.
The same thing happened with the 3.5 Codex. Iron Warriors have to give up 2 slots they were never going to use in the first place? Oh no!!!
This was what I just post in other thread about chapter tactics. If you give those kind of bonus, you can do it in two ways:
-You put those bonuses point costs, but being a army wide rule thats quite difficult.
-You put downsides to the upsides. But those downsides should be relevant.
For example, if you give a 100% Khorne army +2 attacks but they lose -1 BS... that isn't really relevant. If they are a meele army that is just broken. Or even worse. "Your units have +2 attacks but you can't use this list of ranged based units". If you didn't had planed to use ranged units from the beginning, that is just +2 free attacks to all of your units.
insaniak wrote: I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
The problem with the Traits system from 4th Ed, which was also the problem with the Doctrine system the Guard had, is that the downsides weren't downsides, so you were getting bonuses for free.
For instance, one Trait that the Marines could take was "No Allies". Well, if you never intended on taking allies (and back then allies meant Inquisition/GKs/SoBs and that's it), then it wasn't really a downside. Same for Doctrines. You lost the ability to take a bunch of units (Ogryn, Sanctioned Psykers, Ratlings, etc.) but if you never intended to bring those units then you weren't really losing anything.
The same thing happened with the 3.5 Codex. Iron Warriors have to give up 2 slots they were never going to use in the first place? Oh no!!!
Pretty much this.
Had all the traits been equal, and the same of the downsides, it could've worked.
But when you get a decent bonus, and then take 'I can't claim cover saves', something Marines didn't traditionally rely on....well.
So until they can get that balance spot on, I think they're better left out,
insaniak wrote: I would rather something akin to 4th edition's Trait system, to be honest. Do away with Chapter-specific lists entirely (because we've had examples in the fluff of even Ultramarine companies fighting differently to the Chapter norm, depending on the situation and who's in charge) and just let people tailor their own armies to suit their chosen fluff the way they feel works best.
The problem with the Traits system from 4th Ed, which was also the problem with the Doctrine system the Guard had, is that the downsides weren't downsides, so you were getting bonuses for free.
For instance, one Trait that the Marines could take was "No Allies". Well, if you never intended on taking allies (and back then allies meant Inquisition/GKs/SoBs and that's it), then it wasn't really a downside. Same for Doctrines. You lost the ability to take a bunch of units (Ogryn, Sanctioned Psykers, Ratlings, etc.) but if you never intended to bring those units then you weren't really losing anything.
The same thing happened with the 3.5 Codex. Iron Warriors have to give up 2 slots they were never going to use in the first place? Oh no!!!
Pretty much this.
Had all the traits been equal, and the same of the downsides, it could've worked.
But when you get a decent bonus, and then take 'I can't claim cover saves', something Marines didn't traditionally rely on....well.
So until they can get that balance spot on, I think they're better left out,
Which is why I said something like it, rather than that exact system...
Sorry if this is already adressed in other post, but since they are technically Space Marines too...
Start Collecting! Chaos Marines is out of stock on the website... could it have been a mistake? I guess so, but I'd like to see a SC! for bot 1K Sons and DG...
Is there is any indication about new Chaos products coming on July?
CMLR wrote: Sorry if this is already adressed in other post, but since they are technically Space Marines too...
Start Collecting! Chaos Marines is out of stock on the website... could it have been a mistake? I guess so, but I'd like to see a SC! for bot 1K Sons and DG...
Is there is any indication about new Chaos products coming on July?
CMLR wrote: Sorry if this is already adressed in other post, but since they are technically Space Marines too...
Start Collecting! Chaos Marines is out of stock on the website... could it have been a mistake? I guess so, but I'd like to see a SC! for bot 1K Sons and DG...
Is there is any indication about new Chaos products coming on July?
CMLR wrote: Sorry if this is already adressed in other post, but since they are technically Space Marines too...
Start Collecting! Chaos Marines is out of stock on the website... could it have been a mistake? I guess so, but I'd like to see a SC! for bot 1K Sons and DG...
Is there is any indication about new Chaos products coming on July?
Temporarily Out of Stock or No Longer Available?
*Sold Out Online/No Longer Available Online
Ooo, there very well might be some fire with that smoke. Hopefully they redo the basic Chaos Space Marine kit.
