hello, i just played my 5th match in 8th edition.... sure this edition play smoother than 7th, less waste of time but... i noticed that heavy based infantry armies have great advantages, in particular the ones who can spam cheap models, like guard tyr and demons (tz in this case with 2pt brimstones). I guess this will be the edition of massed bulge of infantry, less and less (often overcostly) MC easily targetables, difficult to hide with the new cover rules, i like infantry based armies but in high competitive enviroments i feel this think will be really abused, for example tz demons can field also with a single detachment at least 180-200 brimstone very very easy, models which save at 4++ and cost nothing, and worse have room still for plenty of things, guards is the same, tyr as well. Morale is not a real issue guards tyr and orks are virtually immune, demons play so much cheap troops they really dont care to take 6-7-8 more wounds for battle shock. Big models usually do a few and die quick, i saw Magnus (probably the most durable MC in whole 8th ed) die in 1 turn, disappointing, without considering the stupid rule about ruins 2nd floor where MC cant attack cause their base will be always more than 1" from infantry, so funny look at a trygon watching 10 cultist holding an obj at 2nd floor and can do just nothing. What you think about this, tysm.
I can envision those cultist just blowing raspberries and its funny.
im not finding tacticals to be all that effective but iv only gotten like 5 games in. it feels like a very heavy and special weapons based game now. been poping rhinos and dreads left and right with 4 lascanons perched on a pear tree but otherwise my tacticals with bolters dont do much especially against death guard. mind you 5 games isnt remotely enough for me to make any real consensus.
disappointed with my TFC though whichs makes me sad pandas. maybe if i fight more whimpy xenos or guardsmen.
Meh. Look at the new mechanics of the game for guides on how to deal with infantry spam.
For example, charge large blobs with vehicles (like Rhinos.) Not only does this stop the blob cold, it interferes with the movement of everything behind it. When you are ready to shoot at the blob, use fall back to free them up as a target.
Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.
the real problem is not just the blobs of infantry but they cost so few, so you can play tons of other stuff, enough to deal with veichles and/or MC, 200 brimstone cost just 400pts 1/5 of a 2000pts army, you are aware how many things i can still put into my list? exalted/chariots to deal with veichles, other kind of infantry (demonettes/seekers) for quick hard hitting assault, terminators to wreak havocs to anything in range....Dp/heralds/exalted sorcerer for pisonic, im sure when some large tournament lists will be public we will have a tragic confirmation of how this edition will be at least in competitive.
Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.
then when you find a list which play tons of cheap units with keyword fly you figure or with laser/plasma/heavy fire spam like IG who kill rhinos pretty quick, that wont work.
To be honest, I really like that the basic guys are actually good in this edition. It's nice to finally have guardsmen that can actually pull their weight, unlike last edition when they were something wraithknights occasionally had to clean off their feet.
blackmage wrote: the real problem is not just the blobs of infantry but they cost so few, so you can play tons of other stuff, enough to deal with veichles and/or MC, 200 brimstone cost just 400pts 1/5 of a 2000pts army, you are aware how many things i can still put into my list? exalted/chariots to deal with veichles, other kind of infantry (demonettes/seekers) for quick hard hitting assault, terminators to wreak havocs to anything in range....Dp/heralds/exalted sorcerer for pisonic, im sure when some large tournament lists will be public we will have a tragic confirmation of how this edition will be at least in competitive.
Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.
then when you find a list which play tons of cheap units with keyword fly you figure or with laser/plasma/heavy fire spam like IG who kill rhinos pretty quick, that wont work.
Again, meh.
Yes, there are squads with lots of plasma. No, they are not going to kill 4 Rhinos before they can assault. Or a squad of Raptors whose job it is to deep strike and soften them up for the Berzerkers to finish.
Large blobs just take up too much space on the table to be as OP as people are making them out to be.
Been playing infantry heavy lists almost ever since the leaks and honestly, the Schrödingers Conscripts is a tired lie that's basically a meme at this point. Apparently they have games with 200 lasgun shots, get back into the fight and fix bayonets! Orders all at the same time, while being some how immortal with their 5+ save.
Here's some tips.
1. Charge.
2. Charge.
3. Charge.
Pick a throwaway unit and multicharge the infantry blobs and/or consolidate into them. Yes they can disengage but even with GBItF their firepower is extremely diminished. The artillery is legit scary though.
Infantry SHOULD dominate Warhammer40k. Monster, heroes, vehicles, all should be support units for the infantry of all types: Hordes, Elites, Heavy support, etc...
Think of it like a red army/WWI human wave attack. Usually the generals have no delusions about the ineffectiveness of such attacks in terms of breaking through the enemy and destroying them. The point of the attack is to pin your enemy so your shock troops/armor can penetrate elsewhere without fear of counterattack.
Or you can use them as part of an elastic defense like the Germans in WWI/WWII. You know scattered infantry won't stop the enemy attack, but they will occupy it. They slow the attack down while your real forces in the back hammer it with artillery and wait to counterattack.
I love how this weakens skew lists. All vehicle lists are hyper vulnerable to being swamped by infantry. Don't like it? Support your armor like armor has always needed to be supported. That or suffer the fate of unsupported tank columns advancing into Finland!
Vehicles with an effective "Fly" rule which lets them fire while in close combat might circumvent this. Baneblade variant or Imperial Knight skew lists might be strong, but they seem to be costed very high to account for this.
Infantry skew lists will have to either ignore enemy vehicles, or put anti-vehicle weapons in the hands of low durability models. Designated vehicle tarpits (transports, sydonian dragoons) make ignoring vehicles a costly choice.
Marmatag wrote: A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.
This, coupled with orders, is the biggest problem at their current price; if they weren't immune to Morale, you could wipe half the squad and have the other have run - as it should be.
Powerful? I dunno. Certainly it's annoying that a blob of 50 conscripts can be basically immune to battle shock, fall back and shoot (or charge). Not to mention it's 50 guys. 50, with all the issues that presents with slow gameplay and tedious, really tedious, dice rolling just for them to do 2 wounds to my space marines with 100 shots. Annoying yeah, I'm not sure they're as powerful as some suggest though after having played against them.
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Galas wrote: Infantry SHOULD dominate Warhammer40k. Monster, heroes, vehicles, all should be support units for the infantry of all types: Hordes, Elites, Heavy support, etc...
AT LAST thats the case. So I'm all aboard.
I'd agree if it was something universal to infantry in general. It's really just the super cheap bubble wraps that finally have a place though, not infantry in general. If anything with the way AP works now, the mobile firepower of everything else, the lack of LoS blocking terrain in general, and the high cost of transports mid tier infantry on foot are actually at least no better than before - maybe worse.
A) You also need to factor the price of the commanders and commissars needed to support the blob. Probably 1 commander and 1 commissar for every 2 units. So your 150 pt blob is really more like a 180 pt blob.
B) Do you really want to form up into 50 model blobs? It only takes 1 unit to drive into the gap between them and tie up 100 models in close combat. Of that 100, only about 20 will probably be in range to retaliate in CC.
C) Bring snipers to take out the commissars. If you don't get snipers, ok you should probably be forgiven for being angry.
Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.
Infantry is what 40k should be all about. Like an earlier post said, heavy support, transports, monsters, etc. are all supporting units to the infantry.
The game is finally doing what it is supposed to do in my mind and I am enjoying it. Horde armies actually look like armies. Heck, armies actually look like armies!
dosmill wrote: Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.
Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.
If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)
Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.
dosmill wrote: Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.
Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.
If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)
Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.
Yeah I feel like any time you are rolling 50+ dice for a single unit your opponent should be able to demand a rounded down mathematical expected value insta-roll.
50 conscripts firing 2 shots apiece? You get 33 hits.
You get to re-roll 1s? You get 38 hits.
You get to re-roll all misses? You get 55 hits, and the to-wound rolls will also get insta rolled.
Depends on the army, really. If you want the opposite style of play AdMech does really well with the vast majority of their points invested in Kastellans and Onagers with 1-2 Ranger squads for sniping and some Vanguard to protect the mechs.
dosmill wrote: Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.
Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.
If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)
Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.
Yeah I feel like any time you are rolling 50+ dice for a single unit your opponent should be able to demand a rounded down mathematical expected value insta-roll.
50 conscripts firing 2 shots apiece? You get 33 hits.
You get to re-roll 1s? You get 38 hits.
You get to re-roll all misses? You get 55 hits, and the to-wound rolls will also get insta rolled.
There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.
carldooley wrote: [ There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.
carldooley wrote: [
There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.
Have tournaments ever used timed chess rules?
Not any 40k tournament that I have ever been to. Only WMH.
I played the green tide with orks for years. I had like a 70% win rate with them until tournaments. Most tournaments gave like 2.5 hours for the game and got to about turn 4; if the game would have ran longer, I'd have handily won but often lost by a couple CP's instead.
Trickstick wrote: If infantry comes to dominate the meta then I'll have fun with my Armour list. I do like turning up with a counter-meta list.
depend by the rest of list, infantry army will bring, Obj are taken by number 1 single model hardly can get a obj from a large infantry blob, if that blob is supported by decent anti tank then,,, im not sure would be that easy.
One problem with 40k chess clocks is that you can take actions during the opponent's turn, so you could be contributing to their time too. If someone is slow playing you really need a judge to decide how to proceed. I think they should be strict on slow play as it is just spoiling the game.
That said, 8th has removed a lot of the main causes of slow play. Removal of blasts has gotten rid of a long winded shooting mechanic and the need for accurate coherency measuring, speeding horde movement considerably. Now you can just push your huge blobs forward in far less time.
Trickstick wrote: If infantry comes to dominate the meta then I'll have fun with my Armour list. I do like turning up with a counter-meta list.
depend by the rest of list, infantry army will bring, Obj are taken by number 1 single model hardly can get a obj from a large infantry blob, if that blob is supported by decent anti tank then,,, im not sure would be that easy.
The Armoured Battle Group has always been pretty horrible at winning objectives. I'm thinking a couple of armoured fist squads would be halfway decent at it if used at the right time.
BrianDavion wrote: Most armies have access to snipers. use them, space Marines have scout snipers, who should be able to put a comissar down reasonably fast.
.
People keep saying stuff like this, but sorry. It's really easy to keep commissars out of LOS and still within 6" of multiple units, especially if they're daisy-chained back to the commissar.
Option 1) corner of a standard GW ruin.
Option 2) park a tank. Park a second tank next to the first, so that its front track is halfway along the first's hull. Tada, a little L shaped pocket for the commissar to have a smoke in, and still be within 6" of units. No LoS from most of the board, and anyone running conscripts has enough meat to block drop shenanigans. It in no way interferes with the commissars ability.
Snipers are only an option if the commissar is inexplicably standing out in the open, which no one cheesing the conscript walls of meat is going to do.
Only answers to the conscript question is bring down the unit size (in line with other morale immune units, because currently, it's way over) or make the green trash unit unmotivated by something as meaningless as 2% casualties. And too undisciplined for orders.
I find it pretty refreshing honestly. After having edition after edition of vehicle & monstrous creature spam with minimum troop choices on the table, its about time infantry shined. Hopefully they become even more important than they are now in the future. In the 40k setting, something like an imperial knight, wraithknight etc are extremely rare. Like really, really, really rare. Seeing them on the table top every other game is just boring. It isn't representative of the setting whatsoever. 99.9% of the fighting is done on the ground via small arms & boot to face. We need more infantry not less.
Maybe I missed it in other "oh god the infantry spam" threads, but I'm surprised that Leviathan Dreds with Grav Bombards haven't been brought up as they absolutely pick up blobs of infantry. Mind you this is only a solution for marines/chaos.
Commissar Benny wrote: I find it pretty refreshing honestly. After having edition after edition of vehicle & monstrous creature spam with minimum troop choices on the table, its about time infantry shined. Hopefully they become even more important than they are now in the future. In the 40k setting, something like an imperial knight, wraithknight etc are extremely rare. Like really, really, really rare. Seeing them on the table top every other game is just boring. It isn't representative of the setting whatsoever. 99.9% of the fighting is done on the ground via small arms & boot to face. We need more infantry not less.
I feel the same way. One of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition was that they made infantry increasingly irrelevant compared to big models like Knights.
It was always funny seeing games played in the stores. The box art around the shop showing titanic armies throwing waves of soldiers at each other, then you look at the gaming tables and it's 3 riptides vs a few knights.
Something caught me about the 2.5 hour game time and a 2,000 point list; if you look at the recommended point values/game time (pg 214) a game intended to last ~2.5 hours is 1,000 points...
That sounds like the "problem" of infantry blobs was already noted and accepted. Maybe building at 2,000 for the typical game is a relic of previous editions?
BuFFo wrote: Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.
Only scoring D6 hits no matter the size of the blob somewhat blunts their effectiveness. It makes them more reliable against small units but less so against really big ones.
Diet_Evil wrote: Maybe I missed it in other "oh god the infantry spam" threads, but I'm surprised that Leviathan Dreds with Grav Bombards haven't been brought up as they absolutely pick up blobs of infantry. Mind you this is only a solution for marines/chaos.
Grav Bombards are the only weapon I have seen so far whose firepower scales directly in proportion to the size of the target. A few more weapons using this mechanic would certainly mitigate heavily against blobs.
Razorback spam will deal fairly efficiently with most blob armies. In 2000 points you can comfortably afford 6 RBs with twin assault cannons as well as the squads to go inside them and a Marine Captain to reroll 1s to hit. That is 72 S6 shots with -1 that will mulch hordes and pretty much everything else too. Even units with a 3+ save will take lots of casualties. Land Raiders seem to be the only units that could withstand that kind of firepower (so take infantry with some anti-tank weapons).
Razorback spam may not be fun to face but is both fluffy and efficient. Also plenty of players who previously ran Gladius detachments will have the models (possibly without the appropriate turrets) so I expect to see this becoming one of the early "power lists" in 8th edition.
Sure I could field a poop load of Brimstone Horrors. Shame my not inconsiderable wallet means that's just not a financially viable thing to do. I mean, it costs me £20 for 10.
If I wanted the mooted 200 Brimstone, I'm looking at £400. £400. Suffice to say, one suspects Brimstone Spam isn't going to be an issue, especially as they struggle to fight their way out of a paper bag.
Battleshock.
That's how you deal with big old blobs.
Look at the units available to you, and look for ways to tinker with Ld checks, whether that's dropping the enemy Ld, or adding to their roll.
See if you've got any snipers available to help force enemy HQs to keep their heads down, to mitigate or remove any Ld buffs (such as a Commissar just executing the one dude).
But at the end of the day, we're still learning this new edition. I'm going on theory due to time constraints eliminating gaming opportunities thus far - but even those who've played haven't really played a great many games. Got to adapt!
BuFFo wrote: Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.
Use them.
Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?
depends, their hits against spread out units are about the same, and their effective range has improved (only need 1 model in range to hit multiples), especially now that you can kill things beyond the max range of your gun. You can also run and shoot them super effectively now so that is another range buff.
vipoid wrote: I feel the same way. One of the worst things about 6th and 7th edition was that they made infantry increasingly irrelevant compared to big models like Knights.
Commissar - Now, there's the Traitor Knight. We need to take it down, so how can we go about making that happen as a team?
Guardsman Perkins - Well, Sir. We could request back up from the Melta Specialists?
Commissar - BLAM. No. Anyone else?
Guardsman Bob - Sir, we could jam Guardsman Dave in the knee joint, see if we can't get it to limp around a bit, Sir?
Guardsman Dave - Wot?
Commissar - Capital! You're on the path to Sargent, Guardsman!
BuFFo wrote: Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.
Use them.
Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?
depends, their hits against spread out units are about the same, and their effective range has improved (only need 1 model in range to hit multiples), especially now that you can kill things beyond the max range of your gun. You can also run and shoot them super effectively now so that is another range buff.
On average a flamer will kill one and a half conscripts or ork boys now (and say 2 gaunts).
I feel if you were only getting that many kills from a flamer against such targets in 7th you were either so far away you were just clipping the unit or doing something wrong.
Against more elite units taken in smaller numbers (like say Marines) they are roughly the same but since that was not what you used them for this doesn't help much.
I for one welcome our new Horde Overlords and hope the small, elite deathstars of previous editions go to hell. The weapons might need tuning, but a return to previous editions where anti-horde weapons were to effective that you couldn't run hordes is the last thing I want.
In the end, I doubt many here including me have played a significant number of games and thus might not know what works outside of very specific simulated situations. My Conscript blob deals approximately a third of a wound (based on 20 attacks) on a Rhino if it charges them in a narrow passage, so the Rhino could very well tie my twice as expensive infantry unit the entire game without dying. GWpls nerf Rhinos.
For blobs I can see movement trays coming on at some point in the not too distant future, I mean without blasts why not bunch up? even the three model ones warlord do for their samurai game.
in 5th ran a pure foot IG list, some 150 models, never had a game time out, trick is having a range ruler that takes the base size into account - so touch the base, model moves to touch the other end, done
Martel732 wrote: It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.
Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.
I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.
Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.
Martel732 wrote: It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.
Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.
I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.
Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.
Martel732 wrote: I like the Twin heavy flamer razor more for BA anyway. That's some nasty overwatch.
I'll be curious to see how that goes. It's not a terrible idea.
Heavy flamers seem ideal on any vehicle you want to move. Unless it has some rule like potms of course. I'm experimenting with triple flamer demolishers and punishers.
Aenarian wrote: I for one welcome our new Horde Overlords and hope the small, elite deathstars of previous editions go to hell. The weapons might need tuning, but a return to previous editions where anti-horde weapons were to effective that you couldn't run hordes is the last thing I want.
In the end, I doubt many here including me have played a significant number of games and thus might not know what works outside of very specific simulated situations. My Conscript blob deals approximately a third of a wound (based on 20 attacks) on a Rhino if it charges them in a narrow passage, so the Rhino could very well tie my twice as expensive infantry unit the entire game without dying. GWpls nerf Rhinos.
Did your Company Commander run off or something? This situation is exactly what "Get Back In The Fight" is designed to prevent.
Marmatag wrote: A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.
I need to re-read the IG index but, IIRC, the only way to make them "immune" to morale is with a commisar.
If that's the case, don't leave your snipers at home. Especially if you know anyone who likes to abuse stuff like this. Kill the commisar, shoot the conscripts, and watch their player wince as they break and run. The problem with large units is that while they can take a lot of wounds, they don't like to stick around afterwards.
Take Orks for example. Their morale is equal to their squad size (IIRC they're not actually immune to morale. They just have a lot of it when they're in a huge mob). This means that a big block of boyz is immune to morale, right?
Kill 15 of them in one turn. Then they lose 1d6 boyz in the morale phase. They're anything but immune. You just have to have enough firepower to actually break them.
Nids? We're back to 4th edition where you have to break synapse. It means that if you want to effectively fight nids, you're going to have to know which of the big monsters actually provides synapse and figure out a way to effectively prioritize and kill them before the gaunt packs kill you. If you can do that, their utter lack of any kind of leadership score means that making them break and run away is relatively trivial if you have any firepower left on the table.
Martel732 wrote: It's definitely a problem to be solved. I'm thinking whirlwind battery plus DC psychopaths. And LR crusader.
Youd be better offs with razorback with TLAC and baal preds.
I don't think so. I don't own any TLAC razors and don't plan on using any. So there's that.
Fairly easy to convert them - I converted 6 of them with spare parts and land speeder assault cannons. I'm real unimpressed with the whirlwind anti infantry weapon - 2d6 shots with -0 AP? JEZZ - how is that an anti infantry weapon. The Vengence missle seems like it could be okay with 2d3 str7 ap-1 D2 - but that's more of a light vheical killer. Seems outdone by a TLAC Razor in the long run though.
Thats how most anti infantry mortars are.
it's how most anti infantry weapons are. you don't really need AP-3 for killing hordes.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Snipers are heavy weapons with only a 36" range. You can easily get a huge chunk of your blob on an objective without worrying about the commissar being in range. Coherency!
Marmatag wrote: A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.
I need to re-read the IG index but, IIRC, the only way to make them "immune" to morale is with a commisar.
If that's the case, don't leave your snipers at home. Especially if you know anyone who likes to abuse stuff like this. Kill the commisar, shoot the conscripts, and watch their player wince as they break and run. The problem with large units is that while they can take a lot of wounds, they don't like to stick around afterwards.
Take Orks for example. Their morale is equal to their squad size (IIRC they're not actually immune to morale. They just have a lot of it when they're in a huge mob). This means that a big block of boyz is immune to morale, right?
Kill 15 of them in one turn. Then they lose 1d6 boyz in the morale phase. They're anything but immune. You just have to have enough firepower to actually break them.
Nids? We're back to 4th edition where you have to break synapse. It means that if you want to effectively fight nids, you're going to have to know which of the big monsters actually provides synapse and figure out a way to effectively prioritize and kill them before the gaunt packs kill you. If you can do that, their utter lack of any kind of leadership score means that making them break and run away is relatively trivial if you have any firepower left on the table.
Snipers are not a viable answer to commissars, they're just the only answer. And not every faction has access to snipers or scouts. Hell, not even every Space Marine faction has access to snipers.
And mob rule means that if they're within 6" of another giant squad, they're immune to morale, too. But at least squads of Boyz cap out considerably lower, and don't have rapid fire guns.
Conscripts squads hype is misplaced they aren't going to win any tournaments.....scion command squads on the other hand well that's a different story those are extremely efficient units and I expect every competitive tournament imperial list to have them. i guess a case could be made so that conscripts can't take orders or something conscripts w a commissar should be just like Ork grots with a runtherder or pink horrors w some high leadership character or termiguants. I don't think conscripts should be raised in price they are suppose to be like other horde lists cheap fodder units.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average:
56 for 8 Ratlings
60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles
64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles
70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus
120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks
147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles
160 for 8 Eldar Rangers
160 for 8 Deathmarks
180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins
294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman
378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support
430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles
504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail
No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids
This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average:
56 for 8 Ratlings
60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles
64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles
70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus
120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks
147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles
160 for 8 Eldar Rangers
160 for 8 Deathmarks
180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins
294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman
378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support
430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles
504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail
No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids
This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.
Note that Orks and Tyranids can cut through the horde like butter. And really, so can the Guard.
My 2c:
Yesterday, I played a game using 50 conscripts, 10 infantrymen, a Manticore, a Wyvern, a CC, and a Commissar. Hiding the commissar was incredibly easy, I used a Bastion that had been plopped on the field, and parked my Wyvern next to it to protect him. the 50 conscripts occupied my entire deployment zone, so even when my enemy charged them it wasn't a big deal. I only lost about a dozen models [he was playing Harlequins and had gone entirely with fusion pistols, because I usually play a game with all tanks.]
However, on Saturday, I played a game against the Ork player running a Green Tide with a list that consisted of Pask and a Leman Russ Punisher and a min squad of Scions, and also wiped the floor handily with them despite having no way to clean out the boss giving buffs because the rate of fire on the Punisher cannon was absolutely shredding them.
If you're not equipped with the ability to chew through the horde, you definitely need marksmen. It's really a case of having the right gun for the purpose.
Actually, I'm quite pleased with this edition. It's nice to see some Space Marines with their undies in a bunch, as it were, about not having enough guns to kill all the things I brought. I think of it as revenge for the Gladius being a thing last edition.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Actually, I'm quite pleased with this edition. It's nice to see some Space Marines with their undies in a bunch, as it were, about not having enough guns to kill all the things I brought. I think of it as revenge for the Gladius being a thing last edition.
You do know that Space Marines were never supposed to go toe to toe against horde armies, but rather to perform surgical strikes to take out strategic threats? Annihilating the horde isn't a SM strategy. . . theirs would have been to use scouts to remove the commissar and then to deal just enough wounds that they would break.
I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average:
56 for 8 Ratlings
60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles
64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles
70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus
120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks
147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles
160 for 8 Eldar Rangers
160 for 8 Deathmarks
180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins
294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman
378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support
430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles
504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail
No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids
This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.
I like how the 3 most efficient answers to the Commissar are Guard units.
Intruder wrote: I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
Try looking through other people's Indexes, and seeing what they have (or more likely, don't have). It boggles the mind that you'd make that statement without considering the options available to other peoples.
Seriously though, try playing a non-Imperial army for a change.
I'm an Ork; my best unit for clearing a Conscript/infantry squad is a squad of Boyz - but they're 1.5-2x as expensive, have a 6+ save as opposed to a 5+, and even if they do make it to melee - you can just fall back and turn around and shoot them - with the same Conscript squad!
The Imperium as a whole get access to 2 entire Indexes to build their army from; Chaos get 1 whole index; and Xenos get a 1/3 of an Index at best.
Try looking at the Orks weapon-list page at the very beginning of the Xenos 2 book, and compare that to SM/IG. We have practically 0 weapon choices, for anything. Meanwhile, the Imperium has so many different units, that they have to list them in the back of the Index separated by Force Org chart; while the Xenos get lumped into a single alphabetical list.
Oh, and we don't even have snipers to take care of the supporting characters!
Why don't you try looking in someone elses book for a change, and considering what they might have available before making such an insensitive statement. Imperium/AM get the best troops, best elites, best heavy vehicles, most diverse army lists, and so much more; if you're a Xenos, you get jack all.
Just because I'm triggered right now doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Arachnofiend wrote:I like how the 3 most efficient answers to the Commissar are Guard units.
Intruder wrote: I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
Try looking through other people's Indexes, and seeing what they have (or more likely, don't have). It boggles the mind that you'd make that statement without considering the options available to other peoples.
Seriously though, try playing a non-Imperial army for a change.
I'm an Ork; my best unit for clearing a Conscript/infantry squad is a squad of Boyz - but they're 1.5-2x as expensive, have a 6+ save as opposed to a 5+, and even if they do make it to melee - you can just fall back and turn around and shoot them - with the same Conscript squad!
The Imperium as a whole get access to 2 entire Indexes to build their army from; Chaos get 1 whole index; and Xenos get a 1/3 of an Index at best.
Try looking at the Orks weapon-list page at the very beginning of the Xenos 2 book, and compare that to SM/IG. We have practically 0 weapon choices, for anything. Meanwhile, the Imperium has so many different units, that they have to list them in the back of the Index separated by Force Org chart; while the Xenos get lumped into a single alphabetical list.
Oh, and we don't even have snipers to take care of the supporting characters!
Why don't you try looking in someone elses book for a change, and considering what they might have available before making such an insensitive statement. Imperium/AM get the best troops, best elites, best heavy vehicles, most diverse army lists, and so much more; if you're a Xenos, you get jack all.
Just because I'm triggered right now doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Good point, let me have a look at my chaos army.
Lets see, we have:
Daemon Prince with 2x talons (My favourite)
Chaos cultists
Terminators with combibolters (Don't knock combi-bolters, they might actually be worth it this edition)
Khorne berserkers
Helbrute with power scourge
Raptors (limited use)
Warp talons
Chaos spawn
Havocs with heavy bolters
A defiler with power scourge
Lord of Skulls (a bit overkill though)
And the best thing is most of the things on this list are barely affected by lasgun spam. I've tried conscript spam but it is incredibly boring. It feels like crap to roll 100 dice and get maybe 2 wounds on a space marine squad in cover. I think that's the big thing - most people have never even played against conscript spam in 8th. They just jump on the bandwagon and start complaining. Conscripts, even with FRFSRF, do extremely low damage.
"Nah, but they'll just fall back and fire again"
30 boys (90 attacks!) charging into 50 conscripts should kill over half of them in one turn. Of course, that's assuming they get there unmaimed. But that's also ignoring the extra attack from 'The Green Tide' rule. So it evens out. Not only have you killed over half of them, they can't fire at you unless they receive an order from an officer - and give up FRFSRF.
I don't have any models with power scourges. I don't have Havocs with heavy bolters. But that's the thing. Light infantry have entered the game of Warhammer 40k tabletop. You can't just delete them from the table like in 7th. You actually need things to counter them now. You wouldn't build an list with nothing to deal with vehicles/monsters, and then run around on the forums complaining about how overpowered they are. I don't know what orks options are, man. That's for you to find out. It wasn't that hard to find options in my chaos army, and they're not imperuml/AM hm?
It's bit hard to see stuff like the daemon prince to be particularly good against infantry? He kills 7 models a turn at best. It takes some time to go though an unit of 30+ models. I would even say, that if I had a horde of infantry, I would be happy if most of the units on that list would be killing those lowly troopers instead of something else more important. Which I suppose is the main reason, why the infantry hordes are considered to be good in the first place.
None of the units you listed come close to dealing with one block of conscripts in any reasonable amount of time - and most of them cost well over the 150/180 conscript squad.
It's not just about the conscripts, it's about the things behind them too. The op artillery units; you have to spend the entire game chewing through conscripts, while getting blasted by massive amounts of high s ap ignoring firepower.
anything that is about equal points to a conscript will die faster than they will. Anything that costs more than them and is having to waste time shooting them is a win for AM
In reality, this game has been about fighting Space Marines for so long, that the options to deal with massive amounts of chaff haven't really been written. Ork boys aren't chaff; they're slow and expensive. The majority will die before making it to combat - that's just how they're designed to work. You can get x2 conscripts for any number of boys. More firepower and wounds too.
Plus, positioning stops 30 ork boys from getting all their attacks off in cc, maybe 20 of them will, if that. Drive a vehicle out before the conscript squad, the irks won't ever be able to get past it, or deep strike close enough to charge
Morale should be the answer to chaff; not heavy amounts of firepower; but that's not an option due to the commissar
Intruder wrote: I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
You really blatantly haven't done the math on any of those units.
Triple heavy bolter punisher = 4.4 +2 dead conscripts. So about 6 or 7 dead each turn. So by the end of the game, it would probably have wiped out the 150 point unit. That's pretty underwhelming for a dedicated anti infantry platform.
As for snipers killing the commissar, I'm going to point out LoS again. And even if it is planet bowling ball, he can hide behind tanks, and not be seen.
RoninXiC wrote: If a ~150 point tank can kill a 150 point unit.. it's not too bad, right?
Over the course of an entire game? It's absolutely terrible. Many, many units in this game are designed to murder or be murdered in one or two turns.
By simple comparison keep in mind the same tank is killing a full mob of orks in 4 turns. It's both statistically better against orks (same to wound, worse save), and their model cap is in a sane place. Mind you, this still isn't fantastic, but it interacts with expectations a lot better.
The problem is conscripts are an absurd outlier in a place the game isn't designed to deal with. Weapons and units are designed with the expectation that most infantry squads will be 10, morale will apply, and point costs are plus or minus 10 points per model. Stray from that, and the game warps really noticeably. Cheap infantry is significantly better and expensive infantry don't bring enough to the table.
RoninXiC wrote: Why would a 150 point models needs to kill 3x150 points in game to be considered good?
Basics of game strategy. When you bring a unit in your list, it has a job. It's usually killin' dudes, and typically focused at killin' certain types of dudes. Obviously there are other jobs like transports who just want to move another unit from a to b in a hurry, body swarms gettin' all up in your way, force multiplier dudes etc.
For your army to do well, you want a significant portion of your units to do their job, and you want them to accomplish it in a timely manner. Because, especially in the case of units whose job is killin' their dudes or harassing them so they can't do stuff, every turn it takes to do that job is another turn that the opponent's unit(s) have to accomplish THEIR job.
You want units to be able to do their job in 2-3 turns, because they might not even live longer than that. Taking all game to do a job is a fail. The unit is either going to get killed before finishing, or the unit it was supposed to be killing will succeed in whatever they wanted to do, maybe twice over.
BuFFo wrote: Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.
Use them.
Flamers average less hits and don't ignore cover? How is this better?
depends, their hits against spread out units are about the same, and their effective range has improved (only need 1 model in range to hit multiples), especially now that you can kill things beyond the max range of your gun. You can also run and shoot them super effectively now so that is another range buff.
On average a flamer will kill one and a half conscripts or ork boys now (and say 2 gaunts).
I feel if you were only getting that many kills from a flamer against such targets in 7th you were either so far away you were just clipping the unit or doing something wrong.
Against more elite units taken in smaller numbers (like say Marines) they are roughly the same but since that was not what you used them for this doesn't help much.
With units spreading out to max coherencey you were likely getting 4-5 hits max, so really not much better. It is more about having multiple flamers in one unit, which in general is much better than 6th or 7th, because the removal of only killing things in range.
@jamopower A demon prince with 2x malefic talons is 156 points. So if he ties up a 50 man conscript squad + commissar (180 points), you're actually getting the better cost efficiency. Not only that, he's also going to kill them all before they kill him.
Not that I would straight up charge them like that - I have a tactic now called 'suddenly Heldrake'. He kills priority targets (eg. commissars) these days because 30' movement.
@fe40k Don't talk about things you don't know.
Daemon Prince, 2x Malefic Talons - 156 points
Hebrute. Power Scourge + Helbrute Fist(w/ combi-bolter) - 157 points
5 Warp talons, 2 lightning claws each - 140 points
5 Chaos Spawn - 165 points
5 Havocs, 4x Heavy Bolters - 105 points
5 Chaos Terminators, 5x combi-bolters, 5x power axes - 190 points
And all would beat the conscript squad. The only things 'well over the 150/180 conscript squad' is the defiler and the lord of skulls. Which is fair enough, seeing as they would decimate the conscript squad.
And concerning the 'op artillery units' - why do we take in the conscripts support and not the other sides?? You don't think I'll bring the rest of my fething army to kill gak too? The point is moot, anyway - this is a thread about infantry spam. I have no idea whether AM as a whole is overpowered, and neither do you.
@Voss I play Pask Punisher + 3 HB sponsons. Ups the damage considerably. Will beat a conscript squad with ease. No I'm not going to fething sit there shooting them all game, they barely do any damage at max strength let alone when half of them are dead.
It's pretty clear that no-one has played with or against conscript spam here, you all just like playing mathhammer all day. Yes, they're not easy to grind through, but they have their weaknesses. The squad as a whole is clunky, slow and deals gak all damage. And one commissar kill and they can be snuffed out in an instant. If you want to instakill 50 man squads of conscripts, go back to 7th edition. In 8th, everything is tougher.
Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
Intruder wrote: ..I have a tactic now called 'suddenly Heldrake'. He kills priority targets (eg. commissars) these days because 30' movement.
I don't know how effective a helldrake would be at killing characters. Most cheap buff characters are going to make sure they have a few infantry spread around them, so it is impossible to get them as the closest target. Or just deny you space to move by spreading out.
Intruder wrote: I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
Try looking through other people's Indexes, and seeing what they have (or more likely, don't have). It boggles the mind that you'd make that statement without considering the options available to other peoples.
Seriously though, try playing a non-Imperial army for a change.
I'm an Ork; my best unit for clearing a Conscript/infantry squad is a squad of Boyz - but they're 1.5-2x as expensive, have a 6+ save as opposed to a 5+, and even if they do make it to melee - you can just fall back and turn around and shoot them - with the same Conscript squad!
The Imperium as a whole get access to 2 entire Indexes to build their army from; Chaos get 1 whole index; and Xenos get a 1/3 of an Index at best.
Try looking at the Orks weapon-list page at the very beginning of the Xenos 2 book, and compare that to SM/IG. We have practically 0 weapon choices, for anything. Meanwhile, the Imperium has so many different units, that they have to list them in the back of the Index separated by Force Org chart; while the Xenos get lumped into a single alphabetical list.
Oh, and we don't even have snipers to take care of the supporting characters!
Why don't you try looking in someone elses book for a change, and considering what they might have available before making such an insensitive statement. Imperium/AM get the best troops, best elites, best heavy vehicles, most diverse army lists, and so much more; if you're a Xenos, you get jack all.
Just because I'm triggered right now doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Arachnofiend wrote:I like how the 3 most efficient answers to the Commissar are Guard units.
Isn't it grand?
I can flip through to my other, non-Imperial Guard forces, and find great solutions to Conscripts.
Let's see: Seraphim work well. Dominions and Immolators/Repressors would work too.
Conscripts are a resilient unit. A unit equal to their points cost should not be able to kill them in one or two turns.
I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)
Marmatag wrote: Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
This is a nice way of looking at the problem. If still quite mathhammery.
An nice way to do it would be 6 bullgryns with Brute Mauls and Slabshields(2 squads for the double Bone'ead) and a priest. 319 points. Conscripts would do less than a wound on overwatch. 32 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+. If it turns out Militarum Auxlia is a <Regiment> then I'd take a Company commander with the remaining points for Fix Bayonets. If not, I'm not sure. Maybe a heavy bolter HWS for 36 points?
A cheat's way to do it is 6 full heavy weapons teams of mortars. But that's points abuse - HWS, especially mortars, are clearly underpriced. And who has that many mortar teams?
The way I would so it is with Pask in a Punisher with 3x HB sponsons and a storm bolter. 223 points.
As for the rest of the points, the world is my oyster. 10 Scions with hotshot lasguns + Tempestor Prime for the orders? That's 364 points. 2 squads of normal guardsmen with grenade launchers? 333 points. But I guess that would play into the whole "Infantry spam". 3 ogryns and a priest. 348 points. Pick your poison.
There are more ways I can think of, but I'm assuming you want to mathhammer this gak so I'll leave AM there.
As for chaos. A daemon prince with 2x malefic talons and two 5 man squads of khorne berserkers with chainaxe + chainsword. 326 points. Either daemon prince of khorne for the extra attack (and fluff!) or another god for the psychic power infernal gaze, to try and snipe a commissar. Which would be an autowin. Don't forget that 6s explode in close combat against Imperium. Rerolling to hit rolls of one because of the daemon prince. I think I need to try this in a game!
Marmatag wrote: Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
I'm going to go with Seraphim and Celestine, 395 points.
Both move 24+1d6" on turn one using their Act of Faith, shoot, then charge. Celestine soaks the overwatch, then everyone fights in close-quarters-combat.
They deal an average of 22 wounds to the Conscripts in the opening turn of the game.
On turn 2, they get to shoot twice, or recover losses, using their Act of Faith, which should result in the Conscripts being non-existent.
Now, I this isn't really an accurate metric, because I don't intend for Celestine to engage conscripts. It's a waste of her damage potential. She just has to be present to help launch the Seraphim forwards. More accurately, Seraphim + Dominions, coming up around 332, or Seraphim + Battle Sisters, coming up less, will be attacking the Conscripts, while Celestine goes off to maul a Leman Russ. And Seraphim + Dominions results in an average of 30 wounds to the conscripts.
Intruder wrote: I've never understood everyones problem with hordes. As a guard player, I look through my index to see what options I have to deal with it, and I find:
Punisher Leman Russ
Gatling Cannon Taurox
Hot shot volley and lasgun Scions
Wyverns
Mortar HWT, Heavy Bolter HWS Ogyrns and Bullgryns
Any baneblade variant
and ratlings for sniping off the support characters. Which hordes need to be effective (Maybe not orks).
And I could just take conscripts of my own. Or regular infantry squads. Frag grenades. Grenade launchers. Special weapons teams with flamers. Vehicles with a lot of shots in general - almost immune to lasgun fire. Dedicated melee units. The list goes on.
It boggles the mind to think that no other army has options against light infantry. Maybe you should look through your index and see for yourself. It is not our fault that light infantry could be deleted in previous editions and so you never built something against them.
Try looking through other people's Indexes, and seeing what they have (or more likely, don't have). It boggles the mind that you'd make that statement without considering the options available to other peoples.
Seriously though, try playing a non-Imperial army for a change.
I'm an Ork; my best unit for clearing a Conscript/infantry squad is a squad of Boyz - but they're 1.5-2x as expensive, have a 6+ save as opposed to a 5+, and even if they do make it to melee - you can just fall back and turn around and shoot them - with the same Conscript squad!
The Imperium as a whole get access to 2 entire Indexes to build their army from; Chaos get 1 whole index; and Xenos get a 1/3 of an Index at best.
Try looking at the Orks weapon-list page at the very beginning of the Xenos 2 book, and compare that to SM/IG. We have practically 0 weapon choices, for anything. Meanwhile, the Imperium has so many different units, that they have to list them in the back of the Index separated by Force Org chart; while the Xenos get lumped into a single alphabetical list.
Oh, and we don't even have snipers to take care of the supporting characters!
Why don't you try looking in someone elses book for a change, and considering what they might have available before making such an insensitive statement. Imperium/AM get the best troops, best elites, best heavy vehicles, most diverse army lists, and so much more; if you're a Xenos, you get jack all.
Just because I'm triggered right now doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Arachnofiend wrote:I like how the 3 most efficient answers to the Commissar are Guard units.
Isn't it grand?
I can flip through to my other, non-Imperial Guard forces, and find great solutions to Conscripts.
Let's see: Seraphim work well. Dominions and Immolators/Repressors would work too.
Conscripts are a resilient unit. A unit equal to their points cost should not be able to kill them in one or two turns.
Also, Orks seem to be functional against Guard.
I agree, conscripts should be resilient, but they are ignoring the balancing mechanic put forth to limit hordes.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average: 56 for 8 Ratlings 60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles 64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles 70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus 120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks 147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles 160 for 8 Eldar Rangers 160 for 8 Deathmarks 180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins 294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman 378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support 430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles 504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail
No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids
This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.
I haven't really read the chaos index yet. Orks and Nids, OTOH...
Orks. A 30-strong un-upgraded squad of boyz. Good old sluggas and choppas. Take a wyrdboy and use the ork power that adds +1A. As long as you have >20 boyz in the squad they get 5 attacks each + a pistol volley in your shooting phase. Even outnumbered nearly 2:1 they will mulch the entire conscript squad in 1-2 turns for ~180 points + the cost of the Wyrdboy. Bonus points for you if you can get the wyrdboy into position to 'eadbannger the commissar somehow (assuming the coward is leading from the rear). If the commisar is close enough to the front to attack your boyz, just chop him into bits.
Nids? Same deal only replace boyz with Termagaunts and the psychic power with The Horror.
Bottom line in both cases, you horde better than guard. You have powerful CC tools they simply don't.
Chaos is kind of screwed unless you can get rid of the commissar unless I'm missing something, but I haven't really read that index enough yet.
jamopower wrote:It's bit hard to see stuff like the daemon prince to be particularly good against infantry? He kills 7 models a turn at best. It takes some time to go though an unit of 30+ models. I would even say, that if I had a horde of infantry, I would be happy if most of the units on that list would be killing those lowly troopers instead of something else more important. Which I suppose is the main reason, why the infantry hordes are considered to be good in the first place.
I could see a winged prince being effective if the commissar isn't buried in the middle of the conscript squad. His ability fly would simply allow him to land next to the commissar and charge him directly. Once he's dead the conscripts are toast.
Marmatag wrote:Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
Yes. I don't have my books in front of me at the moment, but yes. I'll come back to this thread when I get home.
IMO, the secret to the conscript squad is to either counter-blob them (see 30 boyz with choppas and sluggas in CC or likewise a horde of termagants with proper support from a nid psyker) or to kill the commissar and abuse the conscript's leadership of 4.
Meh, unbalanced lists can always look good due to rock, paper, scissors matchups. I'm glad to see balanced lists having a reasonable chance, especially given mission variability.
Terrain is going to have such a huge impact on any horde army that the main decider of a game will be who used the terrain the best. 30 boyz are deadly, but force them to attack you through a narrow 5 man gap and they lose a lot of their effectiveness. Stick a flamer russ guarding a street and no way are those boyz getting past in a hurry.
I know that you would just take the boyz another way but that is the tactical game at play, using terrain to dictate the enemy's actions, or counter-playing them. I hope that terrain usage goes up, it makes the game far more interesting. It would also make sense for GW to prefer larger terrain games, it makes them more money!
Chaos is kind of screwed unless you can get rid of the commissar unless I'm missing something, but I haven't really read that index enough yet.
We have Berserkers, high attack/damage monsters and dreadnaughts, and Forge World goodies. That's ignoring the tons of shooting we can bring. Just because we can't snipe the Commie doesn't mean we can't mulch through the entire blob in one turn if we wanted. It'll cost more than the blob, sure, but it'll leave whatever the blob was defending completely defenseless.
Chaos is kind of screwed unless you can get rid of the commissar unless I'm missing something, but I haven't really read that index enough yet.
We have Berserkers, high attack/damage monsters and dreadnaughts, and Forge World goodies. That's ignoring the tons of shooting we can bring. Just because we can't snipe the Commie doesn't mean we can't mulch through the entire blob in one turn if we wanted. It'll cost more than the blob, sure, but it'll leave whatever the blob was defending completely defenseless.
That hellforged leviathan with grav-flux bombard looks deadly. 11d3 shots against a 50 man squad. Str9 ap-5. I heard that the Imperial version can take two...
Most horde infantry have terrible saves. Plus, the whirlwind always can target the unit with no cover
problem is horror spam they have a 4++ save, and sadly they are the cheapest troops in the game, you can spam 30 models for 60pt, for me is broken
The main "balancing factor" with brimstone horrors is that they're basically space fillers on the board; outside of the one pink in the group (which is a more fairly priced 10 point model) doling out a mortal wound 1/3 turns they're unlikely to actually do damage to anything. They certainly aren't as lethal as conscripts with orders.
Of course in an edition where sheer model count can win an objective they may still be undercosted.
Intruder wrote: @jamopower A demon prince with 2x malefic talons is 156 points. So if he ties up a 50 man conscript squad + commissar (180 points), you're actually getting the better cost efficiency. Not only that, he's also going to kill them all before they kill him.
Not that I would straight up charge them like that - I have a tactic now called 'suddenly Heldrake'. He kills priority targets (eg. commissars) these days because 30' movement.
@fe40k Don't talk about things you don't know.
Daemon Prince, 2x Malefic Talons - 156 points
Hebrute. Power Scourge + Helbrute Fist(w/ combi-bolter) - 157 points
5 Warp talons, 2 lightning claws each - 140 points
5 Chaos Spawn - 165 points
5 Havocs, 4x Heavy Bolters - 105 points
5 Chaos Terminators, 5x combi-bolters, 5x power axes - 190 points
And all would beat the conscript squad. The only things 'well over the 150/180 conscript squad' is the defiler and the lord of skulls. Which is fair enough, seeing as they would decimate the conscript squad.
And concerning the 'op artillery units' - why do we take in the conscripts support and not the other sides?? You don't think I'll bring the rest of my fething army to kill gak too? The point is moot, anyway - this is a thread about infantry spam. I have no idea whether AM as a whole is overpowered, and neither do you.
@Voss I play Pask Punisher + 3 HB sponsons. Ups the damage considerably. Will beat a conscript squad with ease. No I'm not going to fething sit there shooting them all game, they barely do any damage at max strength let alone when half of them are dead.
Damage isn't the point, protecting the rest of the army is. The damage they do through sheer statistics is just a bonus.. But no, Pask doesn't beat a conscript squad, let alone with ease. His BS2+ up the damages from 6-7 kills to... 10. Woo.
But then none of the chaos squads you mentioned make an impressive showing against conscripts either. At some point you actually need to sit down and do the math, not to determine outcomes precisely, but just to have a vague idea what these units are capable of. It's really far from what you seem to think it is.
Marmatag wrote: Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
For 349 points:
Stormraven with twin assault cannon, twin heavy bolter, and two hurricane bolters average about 15 dead conscripts a turn
5 Sniper Scouts average killing the Commissar by the end of turn 2
Including morale, that's 30 conscripts dead from shooting, and 15 dead from morale, leaving 5 left.
If you're using 2 indexes, with Ratlings you could kill the Commissar turn 1, fully wipe the Conscripts turn 2, and have 30 points left over.
I'm sure there's more efficient options, but I was too lazy to look beyond my army list (I'm using a Stormraven with a typhoon launcher instead of a heavy bolter, but the kill math comes out similar, and with Ratlings puts it at 363 points) and what I've already dug through for snipers.
RoninXiC wrote: Why would a 150 point models needs to kill 3x150 points in game to be considered good?
Basics of game strategy. When you bring a unit in your list, it has a job. It's usually killin' dudes, and typically focused at killin' certain types of dudes. Obviously there are other jobs like transports who just want to move another unit from a to b in a hurry, body swarms gettin' all up in your way, force multiplier dudes etc.
For your army to do well, you want a significant portion of your units to do their job, and you want them to accomplish it in a timely manner. Because, especially in the case of units whose job is killin' their dudes or harassing them so they can't do stuff, every turn it takes to do that job is another turn that the opponent's unit(s) have to accomplish THEIR job.
You want units to be able to do their job in 2-3 turns, because they might not even live longer than that. Taking all game to do a job is a fail. The unit is either going to get killed before finishing, or the unit it was supposed to be killing will succeed in whatever they wanted to do, maybe twice over.
Your argument is disingenuous on several levels:
1st: Points efficiency is a terrible metric by which to measure a units effectiveness. You can measure firepower output in numbers of expected wounds for a given target, or its inverse the amount of a certain type of weapon shots that a unit will absorb per turn, but points efficiency is ultimately irrelevant. You fight with your entire army, not one unit, and only one mission has murdering other units as the primary objective.
2. Do you know why most units cannot make their points back vs their typical target? Because otherwise they would be utterly broken.
Take this fictional example: my army contains a 300point model, the Uberlaserpaperpanzer. Said Uberlaserpaperpanzer can kill 300 points of Tactical Marines a turn (on average). This unit is utterly broken, as it is not only extremely effective at killing Tactical Marines it is by virtues of its weapons characteristics needed to achieve such points efficiency it is also capable of killing most any other unit in the game in a slightly less efficient manner.
Dissatisfied with my fictional example? Let's enter the realm of the real: 7th edition Eldar. Scatbikers were more than capable of killing their points worth of models in a single turn. The Wraithknight was arguably the best unit ever for this. Scatbikers and Wraithknights were utterly broken.
Really, a unit is "points efficient" if it on average makes its points back in 2-4 turns, or achieves some other objective of equal importance. One does not need to baleet whole armies.
I played a game against Necrons today using Sisters of Battle, and a game against Daemons/Renegade Guard using Imperial Guard.
With the Necrons vs. Sisters game the opposition brought 3 fairly large blocks of Necron Warriors and Immortals, a Cryptek, Ghost Arks, and a few more things. I went into them off the bat with Celestine, Dominions, and Seraphim. I was more than able to lock them down, throwing Repressors into melee with Immortals, and charging and hacking apart his Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks with Celestine, but his large chunk of infantry was very hard to kill. Between the Ghost Arks and the Cryptek, he could regenerate the entire blob from one model in each turn. Eventually I did wipe one blob out because he tried to charge a unit of Dominions armed with Flamers, I got to overwatch him, he failed the charge, re-rolled with a CP and still failed, and then I got to use my AoF to burn and burn again during my next turn, effectively giving my unit 3 shooting phases against him, and allowing me to add the firepower of several nearby units and heavy flamer armed transport tanks to ensure he died, and even then, it was just by a hair I got the last guy.
If Conscripts are OP because they don't die to their equivalent points cost in a few turns, or even double their points cost, and ignore morale, I don't see how Necrons aren't a source of greater complaint. 20-man blobs are basically invincible to anything near their equivalent points cost, and Ld10 is effectively morale-proof. For the record, his army as a whole wasn't actually particularly challenging to overcome, as I was able to cut through his armor like butter with Celestine and an excessive number of flamers. Interestingly enough in that regard, my Seraphim Hand Flamers and Flamer Dominions worked better against tanks than Melta Dominions, because his Quantum Shielding just stonewalled Meltaguns.
As far as Guard vs. Renegades went, I brought 50 conscripts, and they were effectively gone by the end of turn 2. He had a Stormlord full of Mortars and a massive number of Horrors, and a Helldrake, which went through my light infantry like crap through a goose. I think I had a Commissar, a CC, a single infantryman, and maybe 3 conscripts left of my foot elements. Fortunately, my army was not primarily light infantry, and my Shadowsword vaporized his Stormlord and my Pask Battle Tank wiped out the Helldrake, and my Wyvern and Punisher methodically chewed their way through the Horrors. His Horrors didn't have a battleshock problem, though. At worst, he spent CP to prevent it if they were in real danger of fleeing.
Conscripts are good, don't get me wrong, and because Infantry can't blob up any more they're basically superior to our regular infantry from an efficiency standpoint, but I don't think they're a win-all games sort of thing. At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal. My Sisters can get their antitank through them, and can evaporate them, so I don't think they're a big deal.
While I've been impressed with horde infantry's dramatic buffs, since it was basically a non-viable strategy last edition, I haven't witnessed this terrifying tidal wave of 'Gaunts, Boyz, and Conscripts sweeping away all before them. I think SM players are getting their underwear twisted in a knot over us having more bodies than they have guns, and not being able to make short work of every enemy army save Eldar anymore. We've got our thing now, as we were supposed to be, and it's good enough to be competitive, and that's nice. It's pretty clear that it hard counters some things, like Harlequins with Fusion Pistols, but is also hard countered by some other things, like flamethrower armed Dominions and Seraphim. Bring a balanced list, and I don't think there will be massive problems. Also, apparently drop-pod Pyrovores is effective against Conscripts, but haven't faced it yet to confirm.
And I've been getting more crap for having a wall of tanks than having a wall of bodies, and my tank list being un-fun and not-very-nice because nothing in it dies easily.
I played a game against Necrons today using Sisters of Battle, and a game against Daemons/Renegade Guard using Imperial Guard.
With the Necrons vs. Sisters game the opposition brought 3 fairly large blocks of Necron Warriors and Immortals, a Cryptek, Ghost Arks, and a few more things. I went into them off the bat with Celestine, Dominions, and Seraphim. I was more than able to lock them down, throwing Repressors into melee with Immortals, and charging and hacking apart his Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks with Celestine, but his large chunk of infantry was very hard to kill. Between the Ghost Arks and the Cryptek, he could regenerate the entire blob from one model in each turn. Eventually I did wipe one blob out because he tried to charge a unit of Dominions armed with Flamers, I got to overwatch him, he failed the charge, re-rolled with a CP and still failed, and then I got to use my AoF to burn and burn again during my next turn, effectively giving my unit 3 shooting phases against him, and allowing me to add the firepower of several nearby units and heavy flamer armed transport tanks to ensure he died, and even then, it was just by a hair I got the last guy.
If Conscripts are OP because they don't die to their equivalent points cost in a few turns, or even double their points cost, and ignore morale, I don't see how Necrons aren't a source of greater complaint. 20-man blobs are basically invincible to anything near their equivalent points cost, and Ld10 is effectively morale-proof. For the record, his army as a whole wasn't actually particularly challenging to overcome, as I was able to cut through his armor like butter with Celestine and an excessive number of flamers. Interestingly enough in that regard, my Seraphim Hand Flamers and Flamer Dominions worked better against tanks than Melta Dominions, because his Quantum Shielding just stonewalled Meltaguns.
As far as Guard vs. Renegades went, I brought 50 conscripts, and they were effectively gone by the end of turn 2. He had a Stormlord full of Mortars and a massive number of Horrors, and a Helldrake, which went through my light infantry like crap through a goose. I think I had a Commissar, a CC, a single infantryman, and maybe 3 conscripts left of my foot elements. Fortunately, my army was not primarily light infantry, and my Shadowsword vaporized his Stormlord and my Pask Battle Tank wiped out the Helldrake, and my Wyvern and Punisher methodically chewed their way through the Horrors. His Horrors didn't have a battleshock problem, though. At worst, he spent CP to prevent it if they were in real danger of fleeing.
Conscripts are good, don't get me wrong, and because Infantry can't blob up any more they're basically superior to our regular infantry from an efficiency standpoint, but I don't think they're a win-all games sort of thing. At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal. My Sisters can get their antitank through them, and can evaporate them, so I don't think they're a big deal.
While I've been impressed with horde infantry's dramatic buffs, since it was basically a non-viable strategy last edition, I haven't witnessed this terrifying tidal wave of 'Gaunts, Boyz, and Conscripts sweeping away all before them. I think SM players are getting their underwear twisted in a knot over us having more bodies than they have guns, and not being able to make short work of every enemy army save Eldar anymore. We've got our thing now, as we were supposed to be, and it's good enough to be competitive, and that's nice. It's pretty clear that it hard counters some things, like Harlequins with Fusion Pistols, but is also hard countered by some other things, like flamethrower armed Dominions and Seraphim. Bring a balanced list, and I don't think there will be massive problems. Also, apparently drop-pod Pyrovores is effective against Conscripts, but haven't faced it yet to confirm.
And I've been getting more crap for having a wall of tanks than having a wall of bodies, and my tank list being un-fun and not-very-nice because nothing in it dies easily.
"Surprised Necron's aren't a source of greater complaint" followed up by; "His army as a whole wasn't particularly challenging to overcome."
Additionally, just shoot the 20 man squad until they're dead - IG have excellent weapons and artillery to wipe them out; they're just Space Marines with worse save.
"At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal"
This is a huge deal, and adds significantly to the survivability of the rest of your army; every army (especially Imperium) is going to have solid deep strike options - you said you were playing an armor heavy list, then go to say that "blocking anti-tank deep strikers" isn't a big deal. It's a huge deal when your tanks and other vehicles can hide behind cover and keep shooting; or are rolling around in a group of Russ'.
Strategies are going to adjust. I fielded a 3 Crisis suit team with 9 flamers and 6 drones, cost about 228. Chewed through 50 conscripts and commie in 2 turns, they couldn't even charge it due to Overwatch. If too many heavy troop armies starting popping up despite the painting required, more of those "answer" units will pop up.
Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.
Elbows wrote: Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.
Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.
Elbows wrote: Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.
Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.
If you can't see the tanks for the infantry, you have too many conscripts
Alternatively, allocate 6 seconds per infantry model in the IG army, if the total number of seconds exceeds how long you're willing to give the opponent to set up, it's too many men.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)
Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.
Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)
Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.
Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.
Nobs with Kombi-skorchas would also be an expensive but good solution to the conscripts. 10 D6 S5 hits per turn, + 20 S4 shots (hitting on 6s), need to use a truck or wagon for delivery though. So on average that is 35 S5 hits per turn, and 3 S 4 hits (assuming no ammo runts). This would kill 20 Conscripts. This is a 360 point squad tough. Vs the 310 for the flashgits with ammo runts. The problem with flashgits is getting them in range while shooting on a 4+, this basically requires a battle wagon, making them more expensive than the Nobz + Trukk (471 to 442). If the Nobz are somehow able to get the charge after they shoot (would need to be very close to a bunched up squad.) They would likely lose 1 model to overwatch, They kill another 11 conscripts. (31 total), leaving 19 if it was a full squad. The Concripts kill off a second Nob (likely already wounded.), conscripts lose a model to morale. If they then fall back and the Nobz get killed that is a bad trade.
Probably best to stay in a vehicle as long as possible and keep flaming them as it is more effective than their close combat.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't play Orks, and I haven't faced Conscripts yet...but wouldn't a Truk full of Burna Boyz or the like lol through a blob? (Drive up, off load, charge Truk, hose down with Flammas charge Boyz)
Well burnas arent that great for their points. They only do d3 auto hits. And against conscripts the decent rend in combat (which can now be used in the same turn) is of no benefit to taking out conscripts.
Snazzguns from the flashgitz would be pretty good, albeit an expensive choice to dispense of the conscripts. 30 shots hitting on 4s, re-rolling 10 misses (ammo runts..always take ammo runts) wounding on 3s allowing no save. Also on a roll of a 6 then can immediately shoot again. Use a command point to re roll this.. so a 1/3 chance.
That's 300 pts of flash gits killing 40 pts of conscripts. And don't forget, snazzguns are heavy and 24', so if you want to get into range, you got to move. Gits are a garbage unit. The only true answer are boyz with buffs.
I agree. Just throwing out gak solutions to a gak problem. Are we really having 4+ page thread about the OP conscript unit? lol so if we are going to have a ridiculous discussion why not ridiculous answers.
Also, Flash gitz are hardly garbage. A bit over costed maybe.. but garbage? That's hyperbole.
Elbows wrote: Another simple answer (again, outside of tournaments) is to not play that person. If someone walked up with 250 guard conscripts as their army...I wouldn't play them. Pretty simple solution there.
Just out of interest, can you put a number on what you would play? I'm thinking a 100 screen at 1.5-2k would work nice, or maybe something like 4x30. Trying to get an idea of when it would start to get unfun.
It's pretty easy to read a person (and often their army list). It boils down to fun. Not whether or not you're having fun, but whether or not you give two gaks about your opponent actually enjoying playing the game with you. Unless you're playing in some crazy tournament, a game is just that...a game, a fun hobby where we push little toy soldiers around a table and roll dice. If you don't care whether or not your opponent is enjoying the game...I'm not interested in playing with you. If you get enjoyment out of wiping someone off the table in turn one, or having an "impossible to kill" super meta-list...there's a good chance your opponent will not enjoy the game, at all - particularly if they're new.
Now if you approach me and say "Hey, it'd be cool to try like a prison break scenario, where I play all conscripts and you're playing Space Marines to put down the break out...just for kicks!" Sure. I may oblige you one game. But if you approach the game every week with the same net-list that grants you a 12.6% increase in the chance of winning...piss off. You can likely find someone who is of a similar mind - and if you want to just cheese out as hard as you can (against eachother) go nuts. For me it's not about the math, or the winning, it's about enjoying the time I spend playing the game. Some people enjoy just the opposite, that's all well and good.
It's not a personal dislike for said person/gamer/player, but our interests don't align, so I'm not going to waste my time playing in a game with someone like that. There are plenty of people who fit into both crowds.
fe40k wrote:
"Surprised Necron's aren't a source of greater complaint" followed up by; "His army as a whole wasn't particularly challenging to overcome."
Additionally, just shoot the 20 man squad until they're dead - IG have excellent weapons and artillery to wipe them out; they're just Space Marines with worse save.
"At worst, they're going to block antitank short-range deep strikers and CQC units, which isn't really a super big deal"
This is a huge deal, and adds significantly to the survivability of the rest of your army; every army (especially Imperium) is going to have solid deep strike options - you said you were playing an armor heavy list, then go to say that "blocking anti-tank deep strikers" isn't a big deal. It's a huge deal when your tanks and other vehicles can hide behind cover and keep shooting; or are rolling around in a group of Russ'.
I don't know, and don't think so.
I really think only Space Marines and their ilk are really dependent on Deep Strike, and even then, they don't actually have to be.
IG is fairly obviously not deep striking many things. My Sisters don't plan to deep strike Seraphim, because we can fly there faster using Acts of Faith and would be out of range is we arrived via deep strike.
A local Tyranid player expressed that he may drop Pyrovores in Mycetic Spores, and an Ork player was talking about using Da Jump, but both of these were means to close the 24" gap and are primarily looking at attacking the conscripts with the deep-strikers anyway, so the conscripts aren't really a problem.
The necrons aren't really deep-striking things either, and I'm fairly certain the eldar and things like them aren't going to be particularly invested in deep strike either.
So I don't really think the Deep Strike denial is a problem. The Space Marines are the only army that can actually effectively bring a deep-strike focused army.
The CQC problem is a bit harder to overcome, but IG has been doing the whole bubble-wrap against CQC with cheap riflemen since it seems like the beginning of time, and I don't see why it shouldn't work now. Their CQC survivability hasn't actually improved, and CQC offensive power hasn't been particularly hit either. The only addition is the ability to retreat from combat, which is absolutely necessary to prevent us from being a complete roll-over given the new transport rules.
Selym wrote:Look. Guys. We all know the real answer.
The second GW notices that SM's can't instastomp this CHEZ, G-willy Mareens will suddenly be twice as points efficient to counter it.
Pretty much. I think every army except Space Marines has a fairly efficient way to deal with conscripts and get at the armor behind them. Well, the tiny 3-unit "armies" don't, but that's because they're not really factions in their own right. And even then, the Space Marines have lascannon Predators and will almost always go first, and aren't really at a lack of ways to overcome the conscripts or just ignore them and take pot-shots at the tanks behind them.
I don't think SM need to Deep Strike. They just need to be able to defeat conscripts or other large infantry formations within a few turns and remain combat effective. The IG player is just trying to neuter fast enemy CC units by tying them up in wounds so they are stuck all game unable to really disrupt the guard player's better units.
They are just like the suicide bait squads in prior editions, to take a charge so your other units can get the charge next turn or fall back to get another round of shooting in. The downside of these large squads is they have a large footprint, so it's easy to get more then their points worth into combat with them. That in fact should be the goal all the time, to overwhelm your opponent with more points then they can respond with, so they lose units and yours remain combat effective.
You would never waste time having two identical tactical squads duke it out between one another. It would take all game for them to really resolve it. You would however use a tactical squad to prep an enemy tactical squad via shooting for an assault by your assault marines later in the same turn. One or two models can be the tipping point, making their return attacks so low as to statistically prevent return damage to your assault squad.
SM could easily focus the big group of conscripts down a bit in the shooting phase, then plow assault units into them and wipe them out in CC. Sure, they are now closer to the opponent's other units, but he now has 200 points less to deal with them. Is 200 points worth pulling those assault marines forward earlier?
With combat no longer really blocking LOS for shooting, what are these blob squads really protecting?
Why even bother shooting up the conscripts if you're worried more about the "OP tanks and artillery" behind them (FYID6 hits on a standard Russ or Basilisk is far, faaar from OP, as I've discovered from using them)?
Pretty much every army has some degree of long range high S shooting, and if your army is so heavy on CC or DS that roadblock conscripts neutered your whole game plan, it's 100% your fault for losing the rock-paper-scissors that is list building. Even Orks have Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, Tankbustas, etc. Even Nids have Dakkafexes and Biovores. Some armies have Flying transports or flying CC/close range shooting units that can bypass screens to some extent.
Just because rock could bludgeon through paper in 7th doesn't mean you can expect the same results when paper is buffed up to or well above par in 8th.
Talamare wrote: Tell me how many points does it take for Snipers to kill a Commissar in 1 turn...
and yes it needs to be in 1 turn, I still need to deal with the blob... and potentially additional Commissars
Only counting the guys carrying the weapons, and not other members of their squads armed differently or optional gear on the model (i.e. camo cloaks). On average:
56 for 8 Ratlings
60 for 10 Guardsmen with sniper rifles
64 for 8 Guard Veterans with sniper rifles
70 for 2 Skitarii with Transuranic Arquebus
120 for 8 Sniper Scouts w/o camo cloaks
147 for 7 Wrack Acothysts with hexrifles
160 for 8 Eldar Rangers
160 for 8 Deathmarks
180 for 2 Vindicare Assassins
294 for 14 Sniper Drones and 1 Firesight Marksman
378 for 21 Sniper Drones with no support
430 for 5 Haemonculi with hexrifles
504 for 8 Sydonian Dragoons with Radium Jezzail
No options for Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids
This is all not taking into account other external buffs like nearby leaders allowing rerolls or bonuses to hit. The only one I included was a Firesight Marksman, who's primary purpose is to buff drones.
Marmatag wrote:Can you kill 50 conscripts + commissar in 1-2 turns with double the points or less?
You have 360 points. Build a small force (not subject to force org, we'll assume it's part of a bigger army) that can eliminate that in 1-2 turns.
Assume that the commissar is protecting the conscripts with reasonable line of sight issues and challenges, and you can't deep-strike charge the commissar.
Okay, we covered earlier that Orks and Tyranids blob infantry better than IG do, so they're just not a problem as long as the tyranid player brings enough toys to the battle in the first place.
But how do Chaos deal with 50 conscripts + a commissar?
IMO the proper solution was partially mentioned earlier in the thread: Khorne Berzerkers.
Well, zerks + a sorcerer, to be precise. And this unit isn't just a counter to the conscript blob. It's a straight-up steamroller.
10 zerks + a sorcerer that takes the Prescience power. Cast Prescience on the zerks, and charge into the conscripts.
In this case, because we're specifically countering conscripts, you don't need to upgrade the zerks. In practice, if it were me I'd probably stick with chainswords over chain axes because of how Prescience helps enable Death to the False Emperor, but plasma pistols are definitely an option as is some kind of weapon combo for the sergeant (I like lightning claws, myself)
So, this squad gets 30-31 attacks in the fight phase, and gets to fight twice. The best part is that Prescience not only allows you to hit on 2+, but because it just gives you +1 to hit it allows Death to the False Emperor to trigger on 5-6 rather than just on a 6. This turns your 30-31 attacks into 40-42 attacks with 10 models that hit on 2's, wound on 3's, and kill on 1-4 in melee. Before that, you get to shoot, which is going to be standard marine shooting with pistols. So, 9-10 shots, 6-7 hits, 4-5 wounds, 3-4 dead.
Then, after all that, you get Blood for the Blood God, which lets you do the melee twice every fight phase.
If you have the points to spend add a dark apostle for laughs and watch as you only miss with 1-3 attacks every round out of 80-84 attacks, and that's just the berzerkers.
Alternatively, instead of the apostle you can run a rhino for the berzerkers, and trade up on the sorcerer to give him a jump pack or a bike. You lose 10 hits per turn, but you'll have a better chance of getting to the conscripts in one piece.
That's roughly 40 dead the first turn after close combat. If you're also assaulting with your sorcerer and/or apostle you can easily wipe the entire squad, especially if your apostle is packing a combi-flamer or if you manage to get close enough to the conscripts before the charge to throw all three frag grenades. Those grenades will add another 10-11 S4 shots that should end with another 4-5 dead, which pushes the post-charge kill count up to 45, not counting CC kills from the apostle and the sorcerer. Between the two of them, they should be able to kill 5 more conscripts in CC.
Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Only that it does. I actually don't like the absolute restriction on psykers that people place on Khorne, and I don't think that's fluffy at all.
Melissia wrote: Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Only that it does. I actually don't like the absolute restriction on psykers that people place on Khorne, and I don't think that's fluffy at all.
Well is pretty fluffy, Khorne hates psykers and magic. Is like... one of the oldest and unique inamovible parts of the 40k lore.
Is blood magic already a thing in WHFB? I forgot already. Vampire Counts use necromancy, not blood magic. Ogres use butcher magic. Dark Elves use Black Magic, iirc. I can't think of anyone who uses just blood magic.
The reason why khorne hates psykers/mages is because he's also the god of martial honor, and using magic goes against that. I don't see why that would stop him from using buffs though. If you think about it, buffing oneself with magic to fight better in melee is not really any different to becoming a demon prince and fighting in melee.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Is blood magic already a thing in WHFB? I forgot already.
Vampire Counts use necromancy, not blood magic.
Ogres use butcher magic.
Dark Elves use Black Magic, iirc.
I can't think of anyone who uses just blood magic.
The reason why khorne hates psykers/mages is because he's also the god of martial honor, and using magic goes against that.
I don't see why that would stop him from using buffs though. If you think about it, buffing oneself with magic to fight better in melee is not really any different to becoming a demon prince and fighting in melee.
Thats basically what Khorne priest do. They spill blood and pray for Khorne help, using typical "blood magic" and buffing their own allies with frenzied bloodlust, etc... and they can dispell enemy magic praying to Khorne.
Melissia wrote: Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. Only that it does. I actually don't like the absolute restriction on psykers that people place on Khorne, and I don't think that's fluffy at all.
Well is pretty fluffy, Khorne hates psykers and magic. Is like... one of the oldest and unique inamovible parts of the 40k lore.
Khorne hates pretentious and tricksy psykers. He has no qualms with melee majiks. He even grants enchanted swords. If you're only using magic to boost your personal combat potential, he's more okay with it. Just don't be a book-hugging coward about it.
Yeah exactly. He hates Tzeentch's trickery. But if you're just gonna buff up yourself and some 'zerks and make them kill everyone faster, he's okay with that.
There aren't any restrictions against being buffed. The only restriction is that models with the mark of Khorne cannot *be* psykers.
I figure that Tzeentch would gleefully buff a squad of zerks, just on the off chance that Khorne got mad at them later. It's probably part of some plan or another.
The result is similar but it is not the same process. Psykers manipulate the energies of the warp being psykers. A Khorne Priest could call of Khorne to bless his followers with his Chaos God powers making them faster, stronger and better.
Being a Chaos God, Khorne has his own "magic". He can mutate and gift people, he can make magical weapons and armors, etc... but he hates actual and pragmatical magic that people can do at his will manipulating the warp.
Thats why a Priest that uses the blessings of Khorne to hurt his enemies or make his allies more killy is totally fluffly. The power isn't of his own, is 100% from Khorne, instead of taking him at will from the Warp. (So basically, a Wizard vs a D&D cleric)
Plus, you can give him bonuses for every enemy hero killed because Khorne is more willing to bless him
This edition so far seems to have some echos of 8th edition fantasy, when suddenly everyone felt they had to include enormous hordes of troops to be competitive. This had a simultaneous affect of making people not want to play the game because the start up cost was too high.
Am I off base to be worried about this? I quite like 8th's rules otherwise. Even one of my co-workers is feeling inspired to dig up his old chaos marines out of storage.
argonak wrote: This edition so far seems to have some echos of 8th edition fantasy, when suddenly everyone felt they had to include enormous hordes of troops to be competitive. This had a simultaneous affect of making people not want to play the game because the start up cost was too high.
Am I off base to be worried about this? I quite like 8th's rules otherwise. Even one of my co-workers is feeling inspired to dig up his old chaos marines out of storage.
I'd say you're partially right. 8th edition Infantry meta is one of extremes. Some armies can do massive horses really well, while others can do lots of MSU really well.
