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Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 16:42:22


Post by: reds8n


..not long now then...






Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 17:03:25


Post by: Ratius


Is it rumored or confirmed they'll finish at season 9?

Not as good as the first trailer imo.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 18:51:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


So excite!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 20:12:49


Post by: nels1031


Can't wait!


0:39 Who is that?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 20:19:04


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 nels1031 wrote:
Can't wait!


0:39 Who is that?
Littlefinger, if I'm not mistaken.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 21:51:50


Post by: nels1031


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
Can't wait!


0:39 Who is that?
Littlefinger, if I'm not mistaken.


You're right. I thought I saw a beard/goatee and thought it was a different/new character.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 22:16:33


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


So, Beric's fire isn't wild fire anymore?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/21 22:26:32


Post by: Mario


 Ratius wrote:
Is it rumored or confirmed they'll finish at season 9?

Not as good as the first trailer imo.
I think there are only two more season (7, meaning this one, and 8), both shorter (fewer episodes, although a few are supposedly over 70 minutes long).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/23 22:52:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah there're going to be some very long episodes this season.

Cannot wait!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/24 02:11:14


Post by: djones520


I loved this one, more then the first.

Incredibly excited for this season. These trailers have really left the impression that things are going to go crazy this season, making it much more fast paced then the previous six.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/24 02:21:39


Post by: Thargrim


In the end i'll be drinking peoples tears when Khaleesi dies and fails...including my own lol. But come on, you know in the world of game of thrones things tend to always go hell.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/24 07:30:24


Post by: Irishpeacockz


The way they used the scenes of with the moutain standing off against the faith militant and the tyrell army in kings landing in season six trailer rubbed me the wrong way so im a bit skeptical about their trailers now, but im still excited as hell.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/06/24 10:10:20


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


This is the Season I've been waiting for every since Season 2 in 2012 when I finished reading A Dance with Dragons. I've been waiting for the show to catch up ever since, and now its completely overtaken GRRM (who I think is probably going to pull a Robert Jordan and pass away before he finishes his Magnum Opus).

For the first time in 5 years I actually don't have a clue* what the overarching plot of the Season is going to be because theres no book out for me to have read and I'm fething excited.

*well, I kinda do if the Season 7 plot leak is accurate but that remains to be seen. Couldn't help myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thargrim wrote:
In the end i'll be drinking peoples tears when Khaleesi dies and fails...including my own lol. But come on, you know in the world of game of thrones things tend to always go hell.


Ice Zombie Dragon FTW.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/09 09:01:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Noooo! No spoilers!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/10 08:57:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The synopses aren't really spoilers. No more than a trailer.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/10 11:16:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Really, really hoping Little Finger comes a cropper soon.

Can't wait to see his smug grin wiped off.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/15 11:58:14


Post by: DEZOAT


WOW two threads of Winter is here. Well in Kosh's voice so it begin.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/16 22:55:38


Post by: Ouze


 Thargrim wrote:
In the end i'll be drinking peoples tears when Khaleesi dies and fails...including my own lol. But come on, you know in the world of game of thrones things tend to always go hell.


I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/16 23:07:40


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ouze wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
In the end i'll be drinking peoples tears when Khaleesi dies and fails...including my own lol. But come on, you know in the world of game of thrones things tend to always go hell.


I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.



Na, it'll end with the White Walkers kicking everyone's collective arses and then Azor Ahai will rally the survivors and make peace with the White Walkers returning Westeros to the prior status quo. (White Walkers rule the lands north of the Wall, Men rule the lands south of the wall and pledge not to ally themselves with the forces of Fire again i.e. Dragons and R'hllor the Lord of Light).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 02:53:49


Post by: d-usa


Well, that was a pretty solid first episode and quite the cold open.

Spoiler:
and that has to be quite a record for the pre-theme body count


Edit:

Also...

Spoiler:
Will we see Hodor as a wight, because I don't think I can handle that...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 03:53:32


Post by: infinite_array


 Ouze wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
In the end i'll be drinking peoples tears when Khaleesi dies and fails...including my own lol. But come on, you know in the world of game of thrones things tend to always go hell.


I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.



Since, by this point, ASOIAF and GoT are creating tropes, wouldn't the ultimate subversion be that the good guys win at the end possible?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 05:31:05


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Spoiler:
Interesting episode. Surprisingly easy paced, given there's just six more to come. But, it did spend time bringing us and the more casual viewer up to date what what the various factions are up to, and where they are geographically.

I'm hoping the episode is the calm before the storm, because I fear a second 'previously on' episode would waste too much time.


Spoiler:
And of course, Arya Stark, part of the 'All Westeros Starting' champion team of her and The Hound has struck out on her own, confidently cinching the coveted title of 'Best Murder Hobo'


Can we have episode two now please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Public Service Announcement.

DO NOT READ THE BBC NEWS ARTICLE ON THE CRITICAL REACTION.

They've included some pretty big spoilers, and have done so without warning.

As I've already seen it, no harm done my end. But thought I'd flag it for other Nerds.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 15:52:11


Post by: KingCracker


Yup first episode was really solid. Even laughed a couple times, specially the joke that IronIsland fella made about himself and Jamie. Cannot wait!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 18:29:55


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 KingCracker wrote:
Even laughed a couple times, specially the joke that IronIsland fella made about himself and Jamie. Cannot wait!


Great scene that had my wife and me laughing as well.

Also, those
Spoiler:
undead giants! OMG. I want the white walker army in miniature form on my game table right now.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 18:51:51


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


So...Arya's first new friends on her return to Westeros...is a bunch of Lannister soldiers?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 19:26:18


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...Arya's first new friends on her return to Westeros...is a bunch of Lannister soldiers?


Maybe.

The scene did cut awfully fast after her "joke" so maybe she went all Murder Hobo on them off camera.
It would certainly shut up the people all over the internet complaining about Ed Sheerans' cameo.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 21:23:35


Post by: Mr Morden


Pretty good episode with great final line - Crixus would be happy

Likes:

Spoiler:
pre credits scene - nicely done and sets the scene
The Iron Born leader - chaneeling Ragnar from Vikings a bit - but good fun - "I have two hands" was good.
Jon being told to wise up by Sansa who is great
Breene being courted by the Wildling guy - needs more of that
Dany and co have arrived!


not like

Spoiler:
Nothing really - fat annoying Sam bit was even ok, maybe he will die soon - can but hope


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 21:42:45


Post by: d-usa


Regarding Sam:

Spoiler:
im in the camp of people who think he'll not only make it to the end, but that he is also the person who is telling the story. The Library has the machine that opens every episode, and the whole "we are the historians, without us humanity would be nothing better than dogs" dialogue just reinforces that


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 21:47:04


Post by: Mr Morden


 d-usa wrote:
Regarding Sam:

Spoiler:
im in the camp of people who think he'll not only make it to the end, but that he is also the person who is telling the story. The Library has the machine that opens every episode, and the whole "we are the historians, without us humanity would be nothing better than dogs" dialogue just reinforces that


May well be right - but I can hope

So do we think
Spoiler:
now that we have established the Lanister soldiers as basically nice guys, Arya is going to slaughter them for thier faces - she can only impersonate the dead right?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 21:58:36


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...Arya's first new friends on her return to Westeros...is a bunch of Lannister soldiers?


it's just so they can establish their humanity and decentness before

Spoiler:
Nymeria kills them


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 21:59:00


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 22:02:34


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.


Even had the same hairdo

Spoiler:


And yes, I agree with Sansa, but man her presentation sucked: the Starks need to be on the same page in public.

didn't they talk about this at all before having the meeting/town hall/whatever?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 22:15:00


Post by: Mr Morden


She was right - that meeting could have gone very wrong and nearly did. It was very Robb like.

She obviously cares for Jon, but also does not want to be in a position of weakness again and this is likely the culmination of her being ignored in private council for too long - powerful families do stuff like this and much worse in history. Jon still obviously sees her as the "pretty princess" she was and apart from her hold over Little Finger (and his soliders who as Sansa said actually won the battle Jon had lost) he only needs her as a symbol of the Starks. She wants to be more - it remains to be seen what she will do to be more.







Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 22:16:06


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Mr Morden wrote:
So do we think
Spoiler:
now that we have established the Lanister soldiers as basically nice guys, Arya is going to slaughter them for thier faces - she can only impersonate the dead right?


According to the books yes. Faces are harvested and turned into masks, which are enchanted using blood magic in order to animate and fuse them to a Faceless Man's own face. To impersonate a person, you need their face mask, which almost certainly means that they're dead (besides the Faceless Men themselves, maybe they harvest their own faces too which makes them literally Faceless Men).

But the Faceless Men on the TV show already broke that rule when one of them poisoned himself, and Arya pulled several masks off of him to reveal her own face, despite not being dead herself (so how could her face have been harvested?).

So we really don't know. I think the showrunners are just going for the cool factor and aren't really following any consistent rules or respecting the Lore.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 22:35:21


Post by: Ouze


I'm good with that. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, not a transliteration*.

The truth is that I think the show will probably do a better job telling the story than the source books. I love them, but there are a lot of tangents in the books that are maybe unnecessary.

*that's not quite the word I want but the correct one eludes me.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 23:02:02


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Oh I doubt that. Whilst the show is undeniably doing a good job of maintain a steady pace VS the books' meandering, some of the book's tangents were actually good, and were poorly adapted by the show. The whole Dornish plot is far better in the books than the show, they really screwed the pooch there. And Euron is a lot more interesting in the books. Its a shame that they cut Lady Stoneheart from the story.

The show has far better pacing for sure, but that doesn't mean that all their adaptations and changes have been good.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 23:11:56


Post by: Ouze


The show definitely mishandled Dorne, I'll agree with that.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/17 23:56:17


Post by: djones520


We need to get a spoiler tag on the thread title.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 00:00:19


Post by: Ouze


I know that tone is very hard to relay in writing, so please take me at my word that this is a serious question, and not just being pissy:

what do people expect when they start digging into a thread like this, if not spoilers?

I've used spoiler tags throughout just to be on the safe side, but if you've gotten this far into a thread and encounter spoilers it seems like you are very much an architect of your own misfortune. What is the conversation you are hoping to see here?

Again, I am seriously trying to understand the other end of this and not just being difficult. I want to understand what people expect.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 00:48:39


Post by: Dreadwinter


This thread requires so many spoiler tags just to exist, it kind of makes sense that the title would just be a spoiler tag.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 00:57:21


Post by: d-usa


I think the final concensus from last year was:

No spoilers for TV show stuff.
Spoilers for book stuff not in the show.
Spoilers for theories based on book stuff.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 01:09:53


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 d-usa wrote:
I think the final concensus from last year was:

No spoilers for TV show stuff.
Spoilers for book stuff not in the show.
Spoilers for theories based on book stuff.
Soooo, basically everything?

As someone who likes to wait until the end of seasons before watching them, I appreciate the plight of those trying to avoid spoilers.... but the last thing you do when trying to avoid spoilers is go in to a thread about the topic you are trying to avoid spoilers about The annoying spoilers are when you're doing something completely unrelated (watching a youtube video about something else, walking down the street, in an unrelated thread, etc) and people blurt out spoilers about the movie/show/book you're waiting to see/read. Or when you ring up a mate and say "I'm about to watch XXXX" and he responds "oh I liked the bit where XXXX"


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 07:29:41


Post by: Pacific


I think not opening the thread until you have watched that week's show is pretty much a common sense (or self control) thing?

I certainly don't want to look in and see "OMG Sansa is dead I didn't see that coming!" and totally ruin the show for myself

Absolutely cracking opener to the show, the first two scenes were brilliant.

Thought the show did a brilliant job of doing a "previously on GoT" without actually having a voiceover, just reminded you of the significance of what happened in that episode.

And the final sequence of Daenerys arriving in Westeros was just absolutely majestic. Several minutes of just a sweeping orchestral score and some absolutely wonderful camera shots, I don't think I have ever seen such impressive sets on a show (apart from perhaps the original series of Star Trek.. )



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 08:04:15


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ouze wrote:
The show definitely mishandled Dorne, I'll agree with that.


Agreed - Dorne was very poor in all respects - but think like Mereem etc they may not bother with them any more.

But the last few Books were a disaster and complete mess so I think the show is winning on the whole

So who did they miss in the first epsiode and likely to see in the next?

Spoiler:
Lady of Highgarden, The renegade Ironborn?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 08:13:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Pacific wrote:
I think not opening the thread until you have watched that week's show is pretty much a common sense (or self control) thing?

I certainly don't want to look in and see "OMG Sansa is dead I didn't see that coming!" and totally ruin the show for myself

Absolutely cracking opener to the show, the first two scenes were brilliant.

Thought the show did a brilliant job of doing a "previously on GoT" without actually having a voiceover, just reminded you of the significance of what happened in that episode.

And the final sequence of Daenerys arriving in Westeros was just absolutely majestic. Several minutes of just a sweeping orchestral score and some absolutely wonderful camera shots, I don't think I have ever seen such impressive sets on a show (apart from perhaps the original series of Star Trek.. )



Yup. And that last line? 'Shall we begin' was absolutely perfect to round out that particular episode. It reflected the 'round-up' feel, and suggests we're in for something of a wild ride over the next few weeks



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 16:04:29


Post by: Necros


I liked the episode, looking forward to the rest.

I agree Sansa shouldn't have tried to mark her territory like that and stuff. I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."

I love every scene that contains briene and the wildling guy.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 16:06:22


Post by: Ratius


Slow burner overall for me. Definitely setting things up for the season but had some fairly tedious scenes in places.
And that ed sheeran cameo, ye gods.
"Havent heard that song before".
"It's a new one" *cheesy smile*


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 16:11:26


Post by: Mr Morden


 Necros wrote:
I liked the episode, looking forward to the rest.

I agree Sansa shouldn't have tried to mark her territory like that and stuff. I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."

I love every scene that contains briene and the wildling guy.


yeah those two need to be on screen more - genius.

Campfire doesn't bother me - I didn't now who he was anyway.

Sansa was right and Jon apparently can't handle that, that she called him out in public - not a great idea but I think they were showing she was frustrated by being ignored by him in council.

but otherwise she is seen as agreeing and if she has to step in and take the reigns at some point that might not be great.

She is also likely not happy that people keep forgetting that Jon lost the Battle of the bastard ........and she won ii through her infleunce on Littlefinger, she had told Jon waht would happen before the battle and he ignored her then as well, she rmeinded him that her fatehr and brother madde stupid descisons that cost her family and thousands of others - Jon is her last chance - if he screws up again, it might be no-one in the North will survive.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 17:11:08


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Necros wrote:
I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."


They did that for Maisie Williams (Arya). She's a huge Ed Sheeran fan.

I thought the scene itself was fine, though they should have put more effort into his makeup and outfit, he was too easily recognizable which broke the immersion of the scene. It didn't feel like a Lannister soldier singing with his mates, it felt like Ed Sheeran wandered onto set and sat down for an impromptu Ed Sheeran sing-along.. At least give him a beard and long wig, maybe a crooked nose and some scars so the audience has to figure it out, jeez.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 17:20:44


Post by: reds8n


Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 17:36:05


Post by: Mr Morden


 reds8n wrote:
Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?

Well given he has virtually nothing left to live for, is likely to turn to drink like his sister and is still apparently in shock about te death of his last child - yeah him killling her is likely. In fact he must really really love her for her to still be alive now.

The question is will she stay dead


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 17:41:04


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 reds8n wrote:
Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?


Careful now, thats technically a book spoiler. The Valonqar prophecy wasn't actually used on the show IIRC, they only used the prophecy about her children dying.

But yes, the popular theory is that Valonqar (believed to be Valyrian for little brother) means that one of Cersei's younger brothers will be the one to kill her. Tyrion is the obvious choice given how they hate each other, but the Valonqar being Jamie instead is a very popular theory. It'd certainly have a poetic justice to it.

HOWEVER

I will point out that Valonqar could potentially be anyone, its does not necessarily mean Cersei's own brothers. It doesn't even necessarily mean a male. We know from Maester Aemon that a lot of Valryian words are gender neutral. Regarding the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy, Aemon tells Sam that he believes the prophecy was misinterpreted and that "Prince" could refer to a woman i.e. Daenerys Targaryen.

So, if we assume that Valonqar is also gender neutral, then it could be also be a woman who kills Cersei. And guess who is heading to Kings Landing with the express intention of killing Cersei?

Arya Stark, thats who. Maybe she'll even wear Jamie Lannister's face whilst killing Cersei. (Yes I'm hedging my bets here).


Though, it could just as easily be Sandor "the Hound" Clegane (younger sibling) who kills Cersei.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 19:21:50


Post by: Necros


I kinda like the idea of Cerci dying but not staying dead.. Then maybe her and her mountainous friend can join up with the white walkers and she could be one of those zombie boss guys.

I like the reluctant anti-hero hero that clegane is turning into. I didn't really care much about him till he came back. Was he dead and resurrected, or did he just manage to survive when he was left for dead that time?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 19:24:57


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Arya left him for dead. Septon Ray (Ian McShane) found him and nursed him back to health.

No magic involved this time.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 19:47:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I reckon Jamie is going to take Cersei's life.

He did it with the Mad King, and now he's seeing his Sister go off the deep end as well.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 20:30:25


Post by: gorgon


There are those that think that Jaime will end Cersei...

Spoiler:
...fulfilling the prophecy and becoming Azor Ahai in the process. I don't believe that theory is how things will play out, but it's plausible and decently supported as these things go.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 22:17:12


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
There are those that think that Jaime will end Cersei...

Spoiler:
...fulfilling the prophecy and becoming Azor Ahai in the process. I don't believe that theory is how things will play out, but it's plausible and decently supported as these things go.


Has
Spoiler:
Azor Ahai
ever been mentioned in the show - is there any reason it believes it exists in the show universe? I can;t recall it but may be wrong?

I think Jamie will just end her at some point - too late though.

She could then be brought back by the undead army who apparently are still lost in their snow storm or the mad Dr Frankenstein guy. Sort of Bride of Frankenstein to the Mountains Frankenstiens monster


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 22:18:51


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Seriously? Of course Azor Ahai has been mentioned on the show, its all Melisandre ever talks about.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 22:20:35


Post by: Ouze


 reds8n wrote:
and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.

Book readers : is that right ?



I don't believe the song has anything to do with Jaime. It's strictly a throwback to Tyrion\Shae and the song that Bronn tried pretty hard to put a lid on - the hand of gold is totally coincidental IMO, in the book the "hands of gold" refer to the necklace.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 22:24:48


Post by: Compel


I'm kind of agreeing with the "things will return to the status quo" theory. With a few caveats. Everyone has forgotten what the status quo actually was.

It'll probably involve a character sacrificing thermals to become the new Nights King.

I've always liked my idea that the "free fowks" weren't fork who declared themselves free from the Southern Lords but in ancient times rebelled against the terms of the negotiated peace treaty with the white walkers. - that their first born shall be given to them, as the only way to further their species.

Caster, this was the last follower of this treaty.

It's just simply that so much of these details have been lost over millennia.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 22:28:20


Post by: Mr Morden


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Seriously? Of course Azor Ahai has been mentioned on the show, its all Melisandre ever talks about.


I thought she just said the "prince that was promised" - thats the same thing right? (and lets face it she has not got anything right in her propercies for ages :0 .)

Lets face it alot of what happens now is in the hands of the show runners and what they think will work best for the audience. Which is a good thing IMO.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/18 23:38:10


Post by: d-usa


 Ouze wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.

Book readers : is that right ?



I don't believe the song has anything to do with Jaime. It's strictly a throwback to Tyrion\Shae and the song that Bronn tried pretty hard to put a lid on - the hand of gold is totally coincidental IMO, in the book the "hands of gold" refer to the necklace.



At this point, I wouldn't even but it past them to have something happen where someone rips off his hand and beats her to death with it, or if he tries to swing a sword and it flies off and hits her in the face and causes her to fall off a wall or something. That way he didn't kill her, but she still died at the "hands of the little brother" or something stupid like that


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 00:02:39


Post by: Orlanth


 Ouze wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.


Even had the same hairdo

Spoiler:


And yes, I agree with Sansa, but man her presentation sucked: the Starks need to be on the same page in public.

didn't they talk about this at all before having the meeting/town hall/whatever?



I think Jon made the correct call. The heirs are not guilty, this is important as it guarantees succession rights and redemption in the future.
Had Sansa got her way the Starks then or later would have come across the same problem that medieval kings did when succession right was not permitted. Once a house rebells there is no turning back, as they house is totally forfeit if it loses. This reinforces an incentive not to lose and makes restitution near impossible,
However you can permit an heir to inherit after putting their father to death, it happened a lot in medieval times and less came of it than would have thought.
Jon however did have free reign to appoint an upcoming bannerman to the Dreadfort and the Bolton lands, there are no Boltons left and even if they were they were not merely teasonous but genocidal. As far as a Stark could tell the houses of Frey and Bolton are beyond redemption and require extermination. Again having different levels of rebellion is not uncommon in the medieval mind, and Westeros is heavily based on medieval thinking.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 00:16:16


Post by: d-usa


Even in the previous seasons it was a problem with Cercei holding grudges against houses and her dad trying to teach her "fight them, beat them, and make them bend the knee and reward them for submitting"


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 00:19:57


Post by: George Spiggott


Jon also said that their castles would likely be the first to be attacked by the Walkers if they crossed the wall. The Carstarks and Umbers are probably not going to survive the winter.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 14:09:33


Post by: gorgon


Agree with the above posters...overall, Jon was right.

It's interesting that Sansa would reference Robb as having made stupid mistakes, when the relevant stupid mistake here was Robb's overly harsh treatment of the Karstarks, a highly valuable ally, during a time of war. Sansa isn't wrong to be keeping an eye on what's happening to the south, but we all know where the true enemy is.

Sansa is indeed getting very Cersei-like. It wasn't just called out in dialogue, but in Sansa's hairstyle, which evoked Cersei's pre-shaming. Clearly this is going to be a plot point this season. Hopefully for the Starks, Sansa doesn't pick up the Cersei trait of being more conniving than bright...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 14:52:05


Post by: Mr Morden


Its a very tricky thing dealing with the aftermath of a rebellion.

Do you reward those who stood with you - and lets face it usually the only way you can normally do this is by taking the lands of those who didn't.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/19 19:49:40


Post by: Ouze


 Orlanth wrote:
I think Jon made the correct call.


Wait, I need to clarify something I said. I said "I think Sansa was right... etc". I wasn't saying she was right on taking the castles from the people who rebelled. Jon was right on that call - in the war to come, there are only the living and the dead. There is simply no more time for internecine squabbling.

What I agreed with Sansa on was her little chat afterward with Jon - that he needs to be smarter. He has it in him to do the hard thing when needed (ref Janos Slynt), but he also has in him the same foolish sense of honor that got Ned killed (ref how Jon almost died trying to save Rickon).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/23 14:22:01


Post by: DEZOAT


OK . What happen to Lord Tully in Frey keep. I wonder if we see him again. I also wonder if going to control all of River Run and The Twin.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/23 15:11:02


Post by: d-usa


It would seem that House Tully now has the main legitimate claim to the Twins, which should give it to the North.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 21:50:52


Post by: Mr Morden


Another good episode

Spoiler:
Great Dany bit to start with - nicely played - interesting to see if she "becomes the Dragon" now her fleet is destroyed. Diana Rigg is just class

Sansa is just looking stunning and obvious that the equally lovely Natalie Emmanuel has not got the no nudity clause that Emila Clarke .... however given Grey Worms "condition" I think that embrace is pgoing to be pretty one sided.

Sand Snakes dead apart form the pretty one and theon's reaction not unexpected.

The Frankenstein guy is fun but good luck hitting a flying Dragon

The clips that show Cersi with icy breath - Zombie Queen/ White Walker to come?

I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 22:06:27


Post by: Ouze


Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 22:12:45


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.


I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 22:18:13


Post by: Mr Morden


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.


I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.


Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 22:32:23


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.


I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.


Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei


No he doesn't. Jon needs the army of the Vale, not Littlefinger. The army and Lords of the Vale are not loyal to Littlefinger, in fact they tried to eliminate him until Littlefinger leveraged his influence over Lord Arryn to intimidate them. But they're a long way from the Vale now, and Littlefinger can't rely on using Sweet Robin to back up his authority...accidents can happen.

Theres also the matter of the Season 7 Plot Leak...(MASSIVE SPOILERS, obviously...)

Spoiler:
...which has so far been 100% accurate...Sansa orders Littlefinger's execution in the Season Finale.

My guess is she finally comes clean with the Lords of the Vale, and exposes Littlefinger for his murder of Lysa Arryn. Enraged, they abandon him and step aside allowing Sansa to execute him.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/24 22:36:28


Post by: Mr Morden


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.


I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.


Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei


No he doesn't. Jon needs the army of the Vale, not Littlefinger. The army and Lords of the Vale are not loyal to Littlefinger, in fact they tried to eliminate him until Littlefinger leveraged his influence over Lord Arryn to intimidate them. But they're a long way from the Vale now, and Littlefinger can't rely on using Sweet Robin to back up his authority...accidents can happen.

Theres also the matter of the Season 7 Plot Leak...(MASSIVE SPOILERS, obviously...)

Spoiler:
...which has so far been 100% accurate...Sansa orders Littlefinger's execution in the Season Finale.

My guess is she finally comes clean with the Lords of the Vale, and exposes Littlefinger for his murder of Lysa Arryn. Enraged, they abandon him and step aside allowing Sansa to execute him.


Fair enough and seems like a good thing for everyone.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/27 06:30:24


Post by: sebster


 Ouze wrote:
I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.


I think another constant in the show is that no-one ever gets exactly what they want. No win is ever complete, or absolute, and even the most powerful, Valyrians, Targaryens, they all fall. Every victory, no matter how triumphant, just leads to new problems. I don't think the White Walkers will be any different - they won't get an absolute like no-one gets an absolute win. Exactly what a partial win might be I don't know, but it'll be that or annihilation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:


Spoiler:
The clips that show Cersi with icy breath - Zombie Queen/ White Walker to come?




I think it just means winter coming to King's Landing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley.


I think the wolves are used sparingly because they're really expensive to animate. Seriously. So unless it's a key plot point or a big battle spectacle the producers won't include Ghost. Wait for the mid-season spectacle episode or the finale

Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.


People are work were complaining about that scene but I thought it was great. Arya met with her wolf, offered for her to come join with Arya, and then said "No that's not you" or something to that effect. This worked in both tying up the story of Arya's direwolf, and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.

Arya realised it wasn't Nymeria's nature to return to Arya's side, just as it isn't in her own nature to return to Jon and Sansa. She has her own purpose now.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/27 10:08:15


Post by: Mr Morden


I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.


GRM can do that in the books (or not as its unlikely he will finish them I think) but I doubt a tv show, especially as popular as this one would go for that sort of ending.

Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/27 10:55:22


Post by: MarsNZ


 Mr Morden wrote:


Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.


He's nothing next to Jon Snow. Whiney bastard, lord commander, king in the north, part-time wildling, kills a bunch of better men than him, northern bastard championship holder, gets a valyrian steel sword 5 minutes after saying his words, closet targaryan and the most obvious plot armour, cheated death.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/27 12:00:27


Post by: Mr Morden


 MarsNZ wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:


Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.


He's nothing next to Jon Snow. Whiney bastard, lord commander, king in the north, part-time wildling, kills a bunch of better men than him, northern bastard championship holder, gets a valyrian steel sword 5 minutes after saying his words, closet targaryan and the most obvious plot armour, cheated death.


Which of the two has gone from dishonoured exile in the North to playing happy families in the warm south with his own little cottage rather than bunkbeds

Although at some point you would have thought his father and brother would show up and kick the living Sh%$t out of him before taking back their Valyrian sword.

But yeah I don;t like Jon either.

It seems to be theme that whenever Dany tries to be nice - bad things happen.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/27 12:21:38


Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer


See, I think that Jamie is going to be afraid of Cercei becoming the Mad Queen, but in a twist, for the first time, he isn't ready to kill. But, my theory is Cercei is going to fear the betrayal so fiercely that she's going to jump the gun and kill her last (well, I suppose Qyburn is still loyal) loyal subject preemptively, and for that, her demise will come, and as its about to happen she'll scream out for Jamie to protect her, but he's already gone...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 06:23:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Theory.

There are two more Targaryens.

But it's not John Snow, nor is it Tyron.

Oh no. See, we know that John Snow is Dark of hair. As was Robert Baratheon, who very much loved John's Mum. And as Ned Stark, discovered to his cost - The Seed Is Strong.

And Tyrion? Nah man. He's a Lannister through and through. Got the features. Always pays his debts. Exceptionally clever.

But. Cersei and Jamie? Incest? That's pretty Targaryen. Blonde of hair? That's a Targaryen trait as well. One completely hatstand box of frogs sack of cats bonkers and power crazed? The other actually something of a man of the people, like Aegon?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 09:04:08


Post by: welshhoppo


That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.


Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 12:15:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It's definitely a family tradition if nowt else.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 13:34:56


Post by: Mr Morden


 welshhoppo wrote:
That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.

Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.


It seems to be a bit of theme in the books - Theon and his sister flirt with it.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 13:49:54


Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer


 Mr Morden wrote:
 welshhoppo wrote:
That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.

Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.


It seems to be a bit of theme in the books - Theon and his sister flirt with it.


It made the "foreign invasion" scene that much more awkward for him


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 14:50:29


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Theory.

There are two more Targaryens.

But it's not John Snow, nor is it Tyron.

Oh no. See, we know that John Snow is Dark of hair. As was Robert Baratheon, who very much loved John's Mum. And as Ned Stark, discovered to his cost - The Seed Is Strong.

And Tyrion? Nah man. He's a Lannister through and through. Got the features. Always pays his debts. Exceptionally clever.

But. Cersei and Jamie? Incest? That's pretty Targaryen. Blonde of hair? That's a Targaryen trait as well. One completely hatstand box of frogs sack of cats bonkers and power crazed? The other actually something of a man of the people, like Aegon?
It's a fun theory, but it falls away in some places.

I think Robert Baratheon would have known him getting Lyanna pregnant. In fact, we have no idea if they ever did have a relationship in that way - they were betrothed to eachother, but if they ever consummated it? I would have thought that Robert would have known. Also, why would Ned have hidden Jon's parentage if that was the case?

Paying debts isn't a genetic trait - it's a lifestyle. Tyrion, and all the Lannisters, follow it because it's what they live by. Not because of genetics. Incest, likewise, isn't a genetic thing.
I could see Cersei and Jamie being Targaryens, but I'd have thought that Tywin would have known that - whereas his prejudice against Tyrion might be spurred on by that as well. Not to mention the eyes:
Spoiler:
Tyrion has (I think) purple eyes in the books, a trait common to Targaryens, and dreams of dragons. The other siblings have nothing of the sort.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 15:42:10


Post by: gorgon


I think we can comfortably say at this point that Jon is in fact the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. LOL. And the clues were there from the very beginning. Yes, he has dark hair, but his direwolf had white fur, and was found separate from the rest of the cubs.

Tyrion has one green eye and one black eye, IIRC. And yes, I think his encounter with the dragons last season is setting something up.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 15:55:58


Post by: welshhoppo


Targaryen traits are recessive. Which is why they used to marry in the family.

Robert actually had targaryen blood in him, I think his grandmother was one.


Also, there is another piece of the book here, Lyanna didn't seem to be interested with Robert. He just wanted her because she was something he couldn't have. I believe Eddard comments that he would have gotten bored with her if he had actually caught her.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 16:25:44


Post by: Mr Morden


There will be lots of people with at least some Targaryrian ancestors - they came over with an entire army and conquerors usually change the genetic makeup of a population.

Certainly noble families married Targaryians and hence have the bloodline.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 16:27:29


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Oh no. See, we know that John Snow is Dark of hair. As was Robert Baratheon, who very much loved John's Mum. And as Ned Stark, discovered to his cost - The Seed Is Strong.


As was Lyanna Stark. That was essentially the whole plot of the first book; that for a kid to have blonde hair, both of their parents had to have a family history of blonde hair. Lyanna's dark hair would mean any children she has are still pretty likely to have dark hair since its expressed as the dominant trait.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 19:49:21


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Saw the second episode. Bit late, I know.

Spoiler:
So the 2/3 (4?) of the sand snakes are dead. Good riddance. I found them insufferable and full of cringe worthy dialogue. Not to mention that whole "murder your reasonable uncle, his nice (but dull) son and an innocent girl, just to copy what he was about to do in the books to begin with!" thing.
I really hated that plot point in the series. It felt meaningless. I really don't give a crap what happens to Dorn after that. And I liked Dorn in the books.
Also, holy crap Euron is a beast. Like, damn, I guess being a pirate for something like 20 years paid off.

Poor Theon. That PTSD he got from Bolton really messed him up. Right after he was named protector by his sister as well :(

Jon off to see Danny in her castle, instead of asking to meet in neutral ground. I guess that makes sense. For an amateur ruler, anyway.
Choking Littlefinger and forcing him against a wall probably wasn't a smart idea. I'm almost certain he is like, 100% more likely to conspire against Jon now. So its up to 200% betrayal chance

Meanwhile, the people of Westeros have discovered what a ballista is. Took them a while. Like, you'd think the first thing they would do after getting rid of their dragon king would go "you know what would be nice, a weapon that can kill dragons?"


Decent episode overall I guess.

Wasn't there another Ironborn uncle in the books? Who got like a burning hand?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:05:19


Post by: djones520


Victarion has seemingly been written out of the TV show.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:08:27


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 djones520 wrote:
Victarion has seemingly been written out of the TV show.


That's unfortunate. I liked him. Unnecessary, but I liked him.
The series already has way too many characters. That thing about yet another Targ that got away was silly. The Lannisters are really bad at murdering entire bloodlines, it seems.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:10:21


Post by: Mr Morden


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Am I the only one who's happy the Sand Snakes are dead? I found them insufferable and full of cringe worthy dialogue. Not to mention that whole "murder your reasonable uncle and an innocent girl thing, just to copy what he was about to do in the books to begin with!" thing.
I really hated that plot point in the series. It felt meaningless.


Nope I mentioned it as a good point - although the surviivng girl snake and her mother might wish they were dead by the time the mad queen is finsihed with them.....

Tyrion was quite restrained considering it was his niece they poisioned - but he did have little choice.

I got the impression they thought that they would be cool characters but to me they just appeared childish and badly scripted and with poor fight co-oridination and I really like sexy fighter girls!

Victarion has seemingly been written out of the TV show.


Thanks the Gods


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:15:26


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Ouze wrote:
Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.
I loled at first too, and then I thought about it and it made me a little sad that I found it funny.

Theon is seriously fethed up. The physical and psychological torture he endured at the hands of Ramsay is unlike anything any other character on this show has experienced. In a show full of mentally unwell characters (seriously, almost everyone on this show has metal issues), he is by far the most damaged.

Euron and the carnage around made him shut down. He just snapped and couldn't handle it.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:19:02


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.
I loled at first too, and then I thought about it and it made me a little sad that I found it funny.

Theon is seriously fethed up. The physical and psychological torture he endured at the hands of Ramsay is unlike anything any other character on this show has experienced. In a show full of mentally unwell characters (seriously, almost everyone on this show has metal issues), he is by far that damaged.

Euron and the carnage around made him shut down. He just snapped and couldn't handle it.


Yeah, that moment was probably the best part of the episode, because of how tragic it is. Just when you thought things were finally getting good for him, just when you'd think that he was going to become a hero and reclaim his status, his past wounds got opened at the worst possible time and he loses everything again. Of course he's going to run; he's not going to let himself be butchered or tortured and humilated again.
Theon has to be the unluckiest character in the series, and with the Stark family's history that's saying something.

On the flip side though, that's also what any reasonable person would do in that sort of situation. I mean, everyone's dead, his insane uncle's goons are mutilating the dead and the living and he has his sister hostage. The most logical course of action would be to leave and try to create a plan of attack.

Maybe that makes him the new king of the Ironborn Targaryean loyalists as well.
Probably not though.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:21:03


Post by: Mr Morden


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.
I loled at first too, and then I thought about it and it made me a little sad that I found it funny.

Theon is seriously fethed up. The physical and psychological torture he endured at the hands of Ramsay is unlike anything any other character on this show has experienced. In a show full of mentally unwell characters (seriously, almost everyone on this show has metal issues), he is by far that damaged.

Euron and the carnage around made him shut down. He just snapped and couldn't handle it.


Indeed - I am glad that the show was brave enough to show that you don't just shrug that sort of thing off. He could see that Euron taking him captive could put him right back in Hell. He ran - very human.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:27:51


Post by: Grotrebel


Bad luck Theon...

Well that way his sister is (relativly) safe for the moment.
If he stayed they both would have been tortured / killed / worse.

Jon made the right call but sad he won`t see Arya. :(
Btw the Arya scenes were one of the best in this two episodes.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 20:30:20


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Grotrebel wrote:
Bad luck Theon...

Well that way his sister is (relativly) safe for the moment.
If he stayed they both would have been tortured / killed / worse.

Jon made the right call but sad he won`t see Arya. :(
Btw the Arya scenes were one of the best in this two episodes.


Did he though? I mean, wouldn't it have been better to find neutral ground, instead of going to the queen in person? That's like, diplomacy 101 when dealing with an unknown party. Or send an emissary, which was suggested but shot down with a good reason.
I mean, she wants him to bend the knee, which was not mentioned in Tyrion's letter.
I think Jon, the King of the North is going to have a nasty surprise when he meets Danny.
Or maybe he'll propose, I don't know.

Littlefinger is totally going to take advantage of his absence though, all the more reason to not go.
As plot points go that its not the most illogical and is understandable considering Jon's character and inexperience with politics. I just find it unwise from an observer's perspective.

Yeah, the reunion with Nymeria was a nice touch.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 21:40:54


Post by: LunarSol


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I think Jon, the King of the North is going to have a nasty surprise when he meets Danny.


I expect him to get torched by one of the dragons.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 21:42:24


Post by: Mr Morden


 LunarSol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I think Jon, the King of the North is going to have a nasty surprise when he meets Danny.


I expect him to get torched by one of the dragons.


Dragons out hunting see a rowing boat and have a hot buffet whilst Mom is not looking.

That would be hilarious but unlikely at best


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 21:47:03


Post by: Azreal13


 LunarSol wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I think Jon, the King of the North is going to have a nasty surprise when he meets Danny.


I expect him to get torched by one of the dragons.


Given the Targaryen resistances to flames, all that'd do is mean we'd have to see Kit Harrington's wiener.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 21:58:01


Post by: Mario


CthuluIsSpy wrote:On the flip side though, that's also what any reasonable person would do in that sort of situation. I mean, everyone's dead, his insane uncle's goons are mutilating the dead and the living and he has his sister hostage.
I don't know where it was mentioned (reddit?) but apparently TV Euron has some traits of book Euron and books Victarion (I need to re-read the books at some point). And the mutilation (cutting out tongues) is about the crew of Euron's ship (the SIlence) in the books (that has a mute crew). Those sailors/raiders will probably be given the choice of serving on his ship or getting killed.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 22:25:07


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Is Theon going to be the new Gendry? Endlessly floating in the ocean on that piece of flotsam for Season after Season...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 22:30:17


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is Theon going to be the new Gendry? Endlessly floating in the ocean on that piece of flotsam for Season after Season...
No, Gendry is going to row up to him and bring him back to Dragonstone.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/28 22:55:04


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is Theon going to be the new Gendry? Endlessly floating in the ocean on that piece of flotsam for Season after Season...


I forgot Gendry was a thing.
He just...vanished. Like Ghost.
Did Ghost die? I don't remember Ghost dying. He's usually not far from Jon.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 02:38:20


Post by: LunarSol


Ghost is one of the two surviving Dire Wolves. They just try and avoid paying for the special effects whenever he's not important to the scene.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 07:21:32


Post by: AduroT


Between both the possibility of being a secret Targarian and him having been resurrected by the Lord of Light, it would be really interesting to see Danny have a dragon torch Jon and him not be burned by it. I'd love to see all the reactions to that.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 08:06:59


Post by: creeping-deth87


We already know Jon doesn't share Dany's resistance to heat, his hand gets burned grabbing the oil lamp in the first season and it takes a few weeks for it to heal


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 10:27:51


Post by: welshhoppo


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
We already know Jon doesn't share Dany's resistance to heat, his hand gets burned grabbing the oil lamp in the first season and it takes a few weeks for it to heal


might be because he is a half breed.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 10:57:36


Post by: Mr Morden


 AduroT wrote:
Between both the possibility of being a secret Targarian and him having been resurrected by the Lord of Light, it would be really interesting to see Danny have a dragon torch Jon and him not be burned by it. I'd love to see all the reactions to that.


As others have noted fire burns him.

She would just watch him burn to ashes and likely say the same words as she did with her brother - "he was no Dragon" I always assumed that Jon was more tied to Ice and her to Fire.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 13:34:02


Post by: Necros


What if Jon was the prince who was promised and he's supposed to kill Khalisi?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 13:43:42


Post by: Mr Morden


 Necros wrote:
What if Jon was the prince who was promised and he's supposed to kill Khalisi?


What if the prophecy is just a plot device and only has meaning when the script writters need it.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/29 14:23:13


Post by: djones520


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Necros wrote:
What if Jon was the prince who was promised and he's supposed to kill Khalisi?


What if the prophecy is just a plot device and only has meaning when the script writters need it.



The whole story is a plot device... and the Prince Who Was Promised has been a pretty big part of it, even in the books.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/30 12:53:05


Post by: Pacific


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.
I loled at first too, and then I thought about it and it made me a little sad that I found it funny.

Theon is seriously fethed up. The physical and psychological torture he endured at the hands of Ramsay is unlike anything any other character on this show has experienced. In a show full of mentally unwell characters (seriously, almost everyone on this show has metal issues), he is by far that damaged.

Euron and the carnage around made him shut down. He just snapped and couldn't handle it.


Yes some of the 'Theon Greyjoy has left the game' memes were pretty funny.

Although in reality what could he do? If he had rushed at Euron, it would have ended with his sister dead.

Just have to feel a bit sorry for the unluckiest guy alive in Westeros.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/30 13:22:01


Post by: Kroem


I think that the most recent episode was really good. Euron is fantastic, definitely my new favourite character since they killed off Roos Bolten.

I know they won't kill off Daenerys because she is George R R Martin's wet dream, but I wish they would. It seems too much of a forgone conclusion that she will eventually win in the end.
I can see the Hollywood ending now, with her raising an American flag over the iron throne and giving a rendition of land of the free whilst everyone stuffs their faces with McDonald's haha :-P


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/30 13:53:58


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kroem wrote:
I think that the most recent episode was really good. Euron is fantastic, definitely my new favourite character since they killed off Roos Bolten.

I know they won't kill off Daenerys because she is George R R Martin's wet dream, but I wish they would. It seems too much of a forgone conclusion that she will eventually win in the end.
I can see the Hollywood ending now, with her raising an American flag over the iron throne and giving a rendition of land of the free whilst everyone stuffs their faces with McDonald's haha :-P


Not so much in the books - he went out of is way in the most recent ones to make her weak, inefectiual, needy whils introducing new Targaryians to potentially replace her - well in twenty books time when he actually gets on with the plot. Sam and Jon are more his truely beloved - as is Tryion but thats understandable!

Jon Snow - every time he loses a battle someone is there with the cavalry - literaly both Stanis and Littlefinger/Sansa rescused victory form certain defeat. You can't kill him. He is the King of the North, maybe the Prince that was promised, A Targaryian, etc etc

Dany is pro-freedom (but as long as they bend the knee to her and presumably her descendants - although that issue has not arisen yet - but it should - she will need to marry and bear children (or choose a heir - hello Jon I bet) or prepare the way for civil war when she dies) for all.

She is not the USA in any meaningful way.

It looks like it will be the humans vs the undead with Jon and Dany forced to unite to face them.

Euron is fun and they needed him to make the war last.

In reality Dany should just have turned up at Kings Landing - proclaimed herself Queen and that all who joined her would eb safe, any who serve the "mad Queen" would burn - and then done it. Short term - quite a few people die but much less that will now. Being nice is not going to win the war. It will win the Peace but you have to win the war first.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/30 14:17:05


Post by: Kroem


That's interesting that she is different in the books, all I meant by the Hollywood ending is that it is too predictable and the same as a lot of other endings. Not that she was literally captainess America!
The series was at its best with things like Ned dying and the red wedding which were unusual and shocking so I hope they have some more twists up their sleeves.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/30 14:24:03


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kroem wrote:
That's interesting that she is different in the books, all I meant by the Hollywood ending is that it is too predictable and the same as a lot of other endings. Not that she was literally captainess America!
The series was at its best with things like Ned dying and the red wedding which were unusual and shocking so I hope they have some more twists up their sleeves.


The Books and the Show are increasingly divergent -usually thats a good thing - Dany's whole stroyline from where she reaches Meerem is far far better in the show. On the other hand - Dorn is shockingly bad in the show.

Ned and the Red Wedding were both in the books - and great moments in both media.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 02:24:59


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


"Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me."



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 04:37:37


Post by: Ouze


In her defense, who would have known a poison called "The Strangler" was painful?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 05:46:02


Post by: AduroT


Grey Worm must have taken his sweet time getting to le rock. That Greyjoy guy had time to attack the first fleet, take his prisoners back home for a victory parade and meet with the queen, then head back out and get himself to le rock in time for worm's attack.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 10:17:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yup. Also, John Snurr managed to sail down most of the country to meet Dany, so already we're seeing quite substantial time jumps.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 12:10:55


Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer


Thats one thing thats been bothering me slightly with this new season. The show writers need people meeting often for all these plot points, so characters travel vast swathes in what seems like a day... if its really been week (s) of time spent traveling, I bet the Night King has been slowly walking this whole time. Hes probably waaaaayy closer then they think


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 13:46:06


Post by: sebster


This third episode was a fairly straight forward one, really. Jon and Daenerys relationship starts as is needed, and the war starts as needed.

The biggest moment, the one that revealed something really new came, I think, from the short conversation between Melisandre and Varys.

Spoiler:
Varys - If you don't mind my saying, I don't think you should return to Westeros. I'm not sure you'd be safe here.
Melisandre - Oh, I will return, dear Spider. One last time. I have to die in this strange country. Just like you.

Varys looked genuinely shocked at the prediction of his own death, which is interesting in itself, but I think the more interesting part is what is left unsaid - it won't be only those two dying. To me I suspect she's hinting at cataclysm, the deaths most, if not everyone. The prince that was promised isn't just there to bring an end to the White Walkers, but an end to everything in cataclysmic fire.

What makes me think this is how it works with what we've seen about prophecy in the show so far, these things are always true, but never quite as anyone expected. Jon or Daenerys being the Prince is fairly straightforward, having them turn out to be not quite the hero figure is a real twist.

The other thing that occurred to me while watching this episode and Bran's conversation with Sansa, although it wasn't prompted by anything in that conversation, is that if every Stark child's fate is mirrored in their direwolf's, and Bran's wolf sacrficed itself to hold back the army of the dead and allow others to escape, is that to be Bran's fate as well. Whether it happens at Winterfell when the army of the dead come, or perhaps linked to the above I don't know.




 Kroem wrote:
That's interesting that she is different in the books, all I meant by the Hollywood ending is that it is too predictable and the same as a lot of other endings. Not that she was literally captainess America!
The series was at its best with things like Ned dying and the red wedding which were unusual and shocking so I hope they have some more twists up their sleeves.


Nothing in the show has ever played predictably, there's no reason to expect it to start doing do now.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 14:26:06


Post by: Ouze


 sebster wrote:
Spoiler:
The other thing that occurred to me while watching this episode and Bran's conversation with Sansa, although it wasn't prompted by anything in that conversation, is that if every Stark child's fate is mirrored in their direwolf's, and Bran's wolf sacrficed itself to hold back the army of the dead and allow others to escape, is that to be Bran's fate as well. Whether ithappens at Winterfell when the army of the dead come, or perhaps linked to the above I don't know.


Don't forget Lady/Sansa.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 14:35:00


Post by: sebster


 Ouze wrote:
Don't forget Lady/Sansa.


I posted earlier in the thread on that very thing

...and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.


Does that mean there's still more bad stuff coming for Sansa? Or was the suffering Sansa already suffered sufficient to equal that suffered by Lady, in which case possibly is the suffering Bran's already been through already enough to mirror his own direwolf's fate? Is the whole thing just a neat narrative convention and not actually a hard set of rules and I'm way off base?

Probably that last one


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 14:36:19


Post by: LunarSol


I see a lot of attempts to inject parallels between the Starks and their Dire Wolves, but realistically there's not anything there. There's certainly some thematic ties here and there but the only 2 that shared a fate died alongside their Stark in the same event.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 16:16:58


Post by: Ouze


 sebster wrote:
I posted earlier in the thread on that very thing


Whoops. I missed it. My bad.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 18:12:26


Post by: Dreadwinter


 sebster wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Don't forget Lady/Sansa.


I posted earlier in the thread on that very thing

...and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.


Does that mean there's still more bad stuff coming for Sansa? Or was the suffering Sansa already suffered sufficient to equal that suffered by Lady, in which case possibly is the suffering Bran's already been through already enough to mirror his own direwolf's fate? Is the whole thing just a neat narrative convention and not actually a hard set of rules and I'm way off base?

Probably that last one


There are certainly some intentional parallels between the wolves. Arya/Nymeria both go solo. Jon/Ghost, I mean come on, his name is Ghost.

Spoiler:
Personally, I think Sansa will eventually die at the hands of the Night King. Have there been any female White Walkers? I honestly haven't payed attention.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 18:38:30


Post by: Kroem


I really enjoyed this episode mainly because of the interesting narrative they have started weaving around the Targaryen court.

With the loss of Ser Jorah and Daario we have seen the more cautious 'Dove' faction dominating discussions, this has been good for diplomacy but means the Targaryen forces have lost a lot of the dynamism that brought them such success in their early campaigns.

I like the way they have built this up over the last two episodes by showing us rather than telling us that it is happening, we can see how dithering on Dragonstone and relying on overly complicated and risk adverse plans has let the Lannisters steal the initiative and defeat the larger Targaryen forces in detail.
This felt very authentic to me, you see this type of thing happen in lots of successful teams. I will be very interested to see how it plays out especially with the return of Ser Jorah.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:06:16


Post by: Compel


I still think the way the thing will end will be as a truce being renewed between the White Walkers.

However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?

I've been thinking a bunch about how Jon is doomed to inherit the title of the new Nights King. But, potentially, what if there is no 'new' Nights King but, instead Sansa is married to the current one? - One of the tales earlier in the show was about how the Nights Watch Commander married one of the White Walker ladies to become the Nights King. What if, now, that's reversed?

Potentially the whole 'King in the North' issue could be sidestepped with a Jon and Dany marriage. - Which feeds back into my earlier ideas about there needing to be an 'injection' of Stark blood into the Targaryen lineage to stave off the inbreeding issues.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:25:25


Post by: Ouze


 Compel wrote:
However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?


My wild ass guess is that Jon falls for, and then is forced to kill, Daenerys... or did Azor Ahai only have to do that once?

I also can't really tie Jon Snow to "salt and smoke", so maybe vice versa makes more sense.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:31:53


Post by: LunarSol


I'm more than a little afraid that the series will essentially just end the same as Wrath of the Lich King.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:32:20


Post by: Necros


I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?

I have a feeling what's gonna happen is the wakers are already past the wall. Didn't they show a map implying that you could go around the side of the wall somehow? You would probably need boats, but still. Shennigans will happen somewhere along the line that will make Cerci will feel like she has to join them to wipe out the targarians and starks, and just because she hates everyone. She'll become the night queen, with most of the last few episodes of the show being one big epic battle.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:38:46


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ouze wrote:
 Compel wrote:
However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?


My wild ass guess is that Jon falls for, and then is forced to kill, Daenerys... or did Azor Ahai only have to do that once?

I also can't really tie Jon Snow to "salt and smoke", so maybe vice versa makes more sense.



No, I think Jon has already killed his "Nissa Nissa"...Ygritte. Albeit indirectly. He killed her when he abandoned her and chose to stay true to the Night's Watch.

The "Salt" is often believed to be the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears (or in the show, Olly perhaps) when he stabbed Jon Snow. The "Smoke" is the steam that rose from Jon Snow's wounds in the cold air.

And thirdly, Jon was born under a bleeding star. Arthur Dayne's famous sword "Dawn" was allegedly forged from a falling star, and it was bloodied when Ned Stark carried it into the room and laid it beside the bed in which Jon was born. So Jon meets the "born under a bleeding star" criteria too.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 20:47:07


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Compel wrote:
However, the discussion about Sansa becoming a white walker has got me thinking. What if she is the sacrifice to them, rather than Jon?


My wild ass guess is that Jon falls for, and then is forced to kill, Daenerys... or did Azor Ahai only have to do that once?

I also can't really tie Jon Snow to "salt and smoke", so maybe vice versa makes more sense.



No, I think Jon has already killed his "Nissa Nissa"...Ygritte. Albeit indirectly. He killed her when he abandoned her and chose to stay true to the Night's Watch.

The "Salt" is often believed to be the salt of Bowen Marsh's tears (or in the show, Olly perhaps) when he stabbed Jon Snow. The "Smoke" is the steam that rose from Jon Snow's wounds in the cold air.

And thirdly, Jon was born under a bleeding star. Arthur Dayne's famous sword "Dawn" was allegedly forged from a falling star, and it was bloodied when Ned Stark carried it into the room and laid it beside the bed in which Jon was born. So Jon meets the "born under a bleeding star" criteria too.



I'll give you the Nissa Nissa, but oh man the rest seems like a super long reach.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 21:04:47


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Its not my super long reach, this is what book readers have theorized for years.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 21:10:37


Post by: jhe90


Things are indeed getting interesting.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 21:57:58


Post by: Mario


Necros wrote:I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/07/31 23:28:07


Post by: jhe90


Mario wrote:
Necros wrote:I was kinda wondering with the dragonscale thing, if they were trying to imply that Sam had some kinda special healing magicalness in him.. since hardly any other maesters could do the procedure, but Sam could do it as a total noob. Or is he just really good at following the instructions properly and not skipping ahead?
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).


He was very careful. And unlike maybe a senior one, he had fear.

Fear breeds care, and caution.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 04:44:07


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its not my super long reach, this is what book readers have theorized for years.


So it's their super long reach

It seems too far to me, but who knows.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 07:19:46


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kroem wrote:
I really enjoyed this episode mainly because of the interesting narrative they have started weaving around the Targaryen court.

With the loss of Ser Jorah and Daario we have seen the more cautious 'Dove' faction dominating discussions, this has been good for diplomacy but means the Targaryen forces have lost a lot of the dynamism that brought them such success in their early campaigns.

I like the way they have built this up over the last two episodes by showing us rather than telling us that it is happening, we can see how dithering on Dragonstone and relying on overly complicated and risk adverse plans has let the Lannisters steal the initiative and defeat the larger Targaryen forces in detail.
This felt very authentic to me, you see this type of thing happen in lots of successful teams. I will be very interested to see how it plays out especially with the return of Ser Jorah.


Agreed - Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will loose a dragon next - just to really tip the balance in Cerci's favour.

If she had emulated her ancestors and arrived with fire and death it would all be over now - she would be rebuilding and showing her "nice" side so when the upstart "King of the North" comes in grumpily demanding aid she would have been in a even stronger position. Of course that would have made the show end far far to quickly so we have the great drama we have now.

Euron is steeling the show at the moment (he was awesome in the courtroom) but its all very good - characters are dying and the plot is progressing still!

Shennigans will happen somewhere along the line that will make Cerci will feel like she has to join them to wipe out the targarians and starks, and just because she hates everyone. She'll become the night queen, with most of the last few episodes of the show being one big epic battle.


I think so to (hence the cold air coming out of her mouth) - and I doubt she would need much pushing to join anyone who can wreak vengeance on her enemies. That does mean that the army of the dead has to actually stop stumbling around lost in their own snowstorm - how long have they been marching now - talk about narrative time Of course Cerci may become pregnant again - line of succession, something that Dany really needs to think more about.

Sam and healing - no he is just generally super special and great - apparently. At least he was not completely and constantly annoying in this episode.

Varys and Mel were good - interesting he looked shocked at the though of dying in Westros - where did he think he was going to die!

All in all another good episode.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 08:58:42


Post by: Kroem


If she had emulated her ancestors and arrived with fire and death it would all be over now

Haha well I'm not sure only listening to the Hawks would have been a good idea either, but she definitely could have used her forces more aggressively.
Imagine how different things would have been if she had Dolthraki raiders pinning down Lannister forces and harassing their supply lines around Kings Landing, they certainly wouldn't have been free to launch a surprise attack on High Garden.

something that Dany really needs to think more about

I thought she was infertile after giving birth to the horse mutant?
I'm sure the healer in that scene says that she will never have another child, that's why she calls the dragons her children.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 09:44:29


Post by: Tamereth


At the end of last season with dani's fleet sailing across the sea it looked like a slam dunk she would take the iron throne, but I like how they have let the Lannister score several early wins. Euron has played a big part in that. His character is the best part of the series so far, some of his lines "a finger in the bum". It now feels like Dani could lose, even if we know she won't.

Is Dorn now out of the picture? Given that their army etc hasn't been involved I feel like they may still have a role to play at the end, keeping Ellaria alive in the dungeon may come back to haunt Cersi.

The battle scenes were a bit of a let down, it felt like the minimum they could get away with while showing a battle took place, but then we only really had known characters on one side of each battle, so it would have just been a bunch of no names fighting. I guess they were saving the production budget for when it really matters.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 10:27:15


Post by: Pilau Rice


The first two episodes of 7th seemed a bit poor to me but the third has rekindled my joy of the series and my faith that it is going to be good has been restored. I am not sure how to explain how the first two made me feel but I wasn't impressed by them. I think it was because not a lot happened other than people came together and the upcoming setting was created. I guess you always have the first couple of episodes for a new series to find its footing so am pleased that it's back on track. I think this episode gave individuals a chance to shine rather than have a lot of characters share the stage at one time. The Lady Olenna scene was boss.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 10:34:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 10:56:01


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.
Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.

Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?

All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*




*of course, until Bran tells Jon R+L+J.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:09:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Apparently blowing up your own capital city and your son committing suicide turns one into a tactical genius.
Like damn, how did Cersei get so good? She took out 3 of Danny's allies in a single episode.

Then again, the Dragon faction's strategic expertise was pretty terrible. Should have sent scouts out first to determine if the Rock is actually worth something, and that the lannisters really need food. Then they would have known that that Casterly Rock has no real strategic value and it would have been better to secure Highgarden's food stores and wealth.

Maybe the North will send in soldiers to protect the dragonglass mine. It would be terrible if dragonstone were to fall and Snow would have to negotiate with Cersei, who probably would demand something ridiculous.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:19:33


Post by: Ouze


 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).


I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:19:56


Post by: Kroem


Like damn, how did Cersei get so good? She took out 3 of Danny's allies in a single episode.

Well she didn't, she just had good generals in the form of Jamie and Euron who she gave the freedom to act.

As I said above, making Tyrion hand and losing Ser Jorah and Daario has made the 'Dove' faction in her council very powerful. This has understandably reduced her success in military affairs.
We will have to see if the return of Ser Jorah restores the balance a bit.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:24:37


Post by: Ouze


Mr Morden wrote:[Euron is steeling the show at the moment (he was awesome in the courtroom)


Ugh. TBH, I sort of hate Euron for the last few episodes. For one, he didn't really earn his place to be the big bad. Joffrey had a long time to earn his place of villainy, as did Cersei, and Ramsey, and so on. Euron just like, showed up. And somehow he has a thousand ships which got built in a few months on an island with virtually no trees? It just feels like a very sloppy, lazy deus ex Greyjoy. And lets not talk about how he looks like he has an entire closet full of Ed Hardy clothing.

Tamereth wrote:Is Dorn now out of the picture? Given that their army etc hasn't been involved I feel like they may still have a role to play at the end, keeping Ellaria alive in the dungeon may come back to haunt Cersi.


I have no idea who is left in Dorne at this point, leadership-wise. I personally don't see Ellaria walking away from this one.

IMO they're done, but I am not as familiar with Dorne as I could be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.


Yeah it was looking pretty unlikely when she was chained up in the Sept of Baelor so recently.

Still laughing at:

Spoiler:





Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:26:10


Post by: Mr Morden


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.
Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.

Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?

All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*

*of course, until Bran tells Jon R+L+J.


Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements) - she still has Dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied - the Lannisters have cleverly taken out the entire Westros element which does help with their "them against us".

The reaction of the people of Kings Landing shows exactly how easy it would have been for Dany to come in, burn out Cersi and take control - they don't care who is on the throne as long as they get to live their lives. Cersei is in the main not targeting the "small folk" so they don't care if she kills other nobles -why would they. As Euron says they don't really care who's skulls are on stakes.

Jon has stumbled from defeat to near defeat to victory snatched from defeat and people do acknowledge his heritage quite a bit - he might be bastard but his a famous one of a famous man.

It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.

I assumed the Dorne army went down with the Iron born fleet.

Yeah I am really enjoying Euron but he has been given vast numbers of ships from nowhere and a treeless islands, the ability to move quicker than anything else, and the ability to predict the enemy movements without error.

He is fun but yeah massive plot device to change the war.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:33:04


Post by: Ouze


 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements)


I think more of the latter than the former: after all, Dany did crucify a few hundred people like 3 seasons ago.

 Mr Morden wrote:
As Euron says they don't really care who's skulls are on stakes.


As much as I just bitched about Euron, this was one of the better insights this episode - he sure wasn't wrong about that.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 11:43:22


Post by: Mr Morden


Yeah which worked well, then she tired to be all nice and the city felt apart, once her Dothraki slaughtered the harpies and her Dragons burned the ships - all was peace and harmony

I think she has figured this out (again) but too late - Kings Landing will have its AA batteries and bye bye Dragon.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 17:11:09


Post by: reds8n




I felt Bran was a bit of a dick in this episode.

I appreciate he's been through a lot and blah blah but I'm pretty certain he could've made more of an effort to explain things to Sansa than he did.

..although TBF it can be pretty dull having someone try and explain the plot of their RPG campaign to you perhaps we had a lucky escape.

Question :

Spoiler:


IIRC the white walker undead guys could only get past the magical protection of ...err.. wherever Bran was -- due to him being marked or "touched" by the Night King...

.. does this curse/similar still apply and allow the walkers to come past the great wall ?





Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 17:19:09


Post by: gorgon


@reds8n: That's been the theory.

There's another related theory that could play into Bran being a bit cold toward his sister.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 17:42:06


Post by: reds8n




... upon reflection I might be half recalling stuff read on here/previous threads


..other theory then.... ?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 17:56:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ouze wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its not my super long reach, this is what book readers have theorized for years.


So it's their super long reach

It seems too far to me, but who knows.


GRRM is not a fan of doing the obvious. And the obvious would on the face of it, point to Dany, the mother of Dragons, being Azor Ahai, and the central protagonist of the series.

He might seem the obvious choice now for TV viewers who have have it all explicitly signposted and spelt out for them, but believe it or not Jon Snow never started out as the obvious choice. He was nobody of importance, a bastard. Someone who lead no armies and had no birthrights. Someone who was not born on a volcanic island in the midst of a storm ("Salt and Smoke" under a literal bleeding star (the Red Comet on the day Danny was born). Someone who did not have 3 formidable dragons at his side or a Dothraki horde and Unsullied Legion.

GRRM is on record as stating that fan theories have sometimes guessed very close to the mark, to the point that he has to ignore all fan theories to prevent it influencing and changing his work when fans guess correctly. He doesn't want to be put in the dilemma of whether or not to change a plotline because a fan has accurately guessed it.

Jon Snow = Azor Ahai is commonly believed to be one of those accurately deduced plot-lines.

It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:00:13


Post by: gorgon


 reds8n wrote:


... upon reflection I might be half recalling stuff read on here/previous threads


..other theory then.... ?



Regarding Bran, the theory goes that...

Spoiler:
...Bran is the Night King. That's why the NK was able to see and touch him in the first place. Bran traveled to the past and warged into the guy who became the NK, in some attempt to stop it from happening. Except that he fails, becomes the NK, and is stuck there.


Note that this theory doesn't work exactly as is for the books. In the books...

Spoiler:
...the NK was said to be a commander of the Night's Watch, who met a pale-skinned, blue-eyed mysterious woman (presumed to be an Other/WW), was transformed, and then started committing atrocities until Brandon Stark, lord of Winterfell, put him down.

However, Old Nan suggests that the NK was in fact a Stark named Brandon. However that shakes out, there was a Brandon Stark closely tied to the NK, which could be a time-traveling Bran.

Also note that the Wall's creator is said to be Bran the Builder, the legendary founder of House Stark. Which could also be our Bran...perhaps even in Other/WW form since the Wall is a giant magical ice creation.


For the show, I think they took an altered, shorthand approach to what's probably a very circuitous thing in the books to come.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:01:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ouze wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).


I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago



The leaks which have been eerily accurate so far?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:20:29


Post by: Jadenim


Did anyone else catch Melisandre saying that she had "brought ice and fire together"?

Given the title of the series, I'm now wondering whether the "Prince who is promised, who will bring the dawn" is a more metaphorical statement for the son (or daughter) of Daenerys and Jon, an heir who can truly unite the kingdoms and bring about a new age?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:28:05


Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer


Also, so how about Lottlefinger being an alien or timetraveller or Bran or something? Slinging multiverse theory like its nothing? Uhhh?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:32:44


Post by: LunarSol


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.


Tricks only surprise the audience when you close the show before they get up and start wandering around backstage.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:34:50


Post by: Mr Morden


 Jadenim wrote:
Did anyone else catch Melisandre saying that she had "brought ice and fire together"?

Given the title of the series, I'm now wondering whether the "Prince who is promised, who will bring the dawn" is a more metaphorical statement for the son (or daughter) of Daenerys and Jon, an heir who can truly unite the kingdoms and bring about a new age?


Maybe - maybe it will turn out to be nothing more than their future pet names for each other.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:41:50


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.
Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.

Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?

All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*

*of course, until Bran tells Jon R+L+J.


Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements) - she still has Dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied - the Lannisters have cleverly taken out the entire Westros element which does help with their "them against us".
I personally would have labelled the Dornish and Greyjoy forces as Daenerys', just by them recognising her as the commander-in-chief, so to speak, like how the Tarly army is Cersei's to command. But yes, she still has troops, but the dragons are the equivalent of a nuke, and the other forces are foreign - as you said, the "foreign invasion" that the lords fear.

Jon has stumbled from defeat to near defeat to victory snatched from defeat and people do acknowledge his heritage quite a bit - he might be bastard but his a famous one of a famous man.
They acknowledge him as Ned's bastard, but a bastard no less. In the Watch, being a royal bastard was used against him, however, I will admit that he probably had a one-up on the other recruits in the way of blade training before he reached the Wall. All the same, he rose to command of the Night's Watch against others who had just as much, if not more training and experience, and his allying with the Wildlings has nothing much to do with a Lord they've probably not heard of or care about.

Considering the odds Jon's been against, he's done very well. (I attribute the massive body count of the Siege of Winterfell more to Sansa, for her not telling Jon about the reinforcements at all, but that's just me).

It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.
I'll agree with that, although I got the impression he was about to offer something when she told him to start mining.
Emilia Clarke does do a very good job of keeping Daenerys on that edge of madness and rationality - sometimes you just can't tell what she's going to do next, and I like that.

Yeah I am really enjoying Euron but he has been given vast numbers of ships from nowhere and a treeless islands, the ability to move quicker than anything else, and the ability to predict the enemy movements without error.

He is fun but yeah massive plot device to change the war.
Agreed. I could perhaps get away with saying "he's such a good sailor that he can manipulate the seas/winds/sails to get more speed", and his predictions could just be lucky guesses, but I don't think I've heard a decent excuse for his ships. Especially his own "custom" ship, the Silence (awesome name though).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:48:58


Post by: Yodhrin


Err, it has more sails on it, so it moves faster. That's just, like, science.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 18:56:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 19:30:00


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic.
Huh. That's pretty cool, I guess.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 19:59:49


Post by: Azreal13


There's no actual need for Euron to be at Casterly Rock either, Silence may be there, and that could be taken as an indicator he is supposed to be, but the fleet could easily have headed there while he was still at King's Landing.

Overall one of my favourite episodes in a long time, I was particularly satisified with the Jaime/Olenna scene at the end, I don't think they could have had Olenna face her death in a way more appropriate to her character than downing the poison, dropping a massive gak bomb on Jaime's head and calling Joffrey a don't bypass the filter like this. Reds8n in the space of a few minutes!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 22:45:34


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

"You're a wizard, Euron."


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 23:02:07


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).


I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago



The leaks which have been eerily accurate so far?


Yeah, I read them on a lark when they came out and kind of wish I could un-ring that bell since turns out they were all 100% true.

Well, I read all the books well before the series aired, so I guess it's par for the course.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.


Blood Magic is literally the only explanation that works for how he was able to get all of those ships built in the first place, let alone their speed.

I hope at some point on the show they show (and explain) the crew of Silence, since that was a neat thing about Euron.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 23:04:28


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Already have. IIRC when Euron meets Balon on the bridge of Pyke, Balon asks if its true that Euron cut out the tongues of all his crewmen and Euron responds "I wanted silence".

And Euron's crew were all silent in the attack on Yara's ship. Some of them take Ellaria and Tyene captive, Ellaria tells them to just get it over with and kill them. One of them stays silent, shakes his head and gives a really creep smile.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 23:10:32


Post by: Ouze


I saw some of them cutting out tongues.

I guess I missed the exchange on the bridge.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/01 23:21:57


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


It was last season.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 06:20:43


Post by: Ouze


No, I mean I remember them meeting - after all, something important happened at said meeting , just not that specific exchange.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 08:27:18


Post by: sebster


Mario wrote:
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).


I imagine Sam was considerably helped by the nature of his patient. Most men would writhe, greatly increasing the risk to others. But Jorah is a lot more stoic than most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Varys and Mel were good - interesting he looked shocked at the though of dying in Westros - where did he think he was going to die!


Dunno, it may have been more the surprise of hearing that someone with prophetic powers has seen your death. If I heard that the geography of it would be the least of my concerns.

The other element is that Varys knows something else about the Lord of Light that's been hinted at for a long time, something he heard when he was castrated by that sorcerer. I really do think that short scene will prove pivotal in how things unfold, perhaps not in this season but in what is planned for season 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
Ugh. TBH, I sort of hate Euron for the last few episodes. For one, he didn't really earn his place to be the big bad. Joffrey had a long time to earn his place of villainy, as did Cersei, and Ramsey, and so on. Euron just like, showed up. And somehow he has a thousand ships which got built in a few months on an island with virtually no trees? It just feels like a very sloppy, lazy deus ex Greyjoy. And lets not talk about how he looks like he has an entire closet full of Ed Hardy clothing.


Yeah, the story needed Cersei to have a fighting chance, so they gave her a new ally who conjured up an all powerful fleet out of nowhere.

I think the guy playing Euron is taking to the role with such relish that it lets us overlook the plot contrivances, though.

I have no idea who is left in Dorne at this point, leadership-wise. I personally don't see Ellaria walking away from this one.

IMO they're done, but I am not as familiar with Dorne as I could be.


Much like the Faith Militant, Dorne appears destined to be handwaved out of the story once their leaders are killed and plot momentum demands they make way for new conflicts.

In reality, Cersei would be trapped in a city filled with religious cult that hates her more than ever. Whoever just got defaulted in to rule in Dorne would be marching on King's Landing tomorrow, and the Lannisters would be stuck having to leave a large portion of their army in Highgarden to keep any kind of order and maintain food supplies.

But that wouldn't make for much of a story


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.


Jon isn't think in terms of alliances at all. He is fixated on stopping the army of the dead and thinks that should be everyone else's priority as well. He isn't wrong that it should be everyone's priority, but the reality is, as Tyrion explained, that other people can't completely change their thinking just because of a conversation with Jon.

Jon doesn't get that, of course. The guy has never been full of insightful thinking.

I assumed the Dorne army went down with the Iron born fleet.


Weren't they returning to Dorne to fetch their army, before laying siege to King's Landing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.


A lot of clever fans figured out a lot of things ahead of time, but even if they hadn't then by now the rest of us regular audience goers would have figured out he was pretty damn important because of all the things he's done, and the massive revelation about his origin.

So now it's only natural to wonder if there's one more twist in the tail. It'd be pretty strange for a story that's been full of twists to make its big reveal in the back of season 5, and then just have everything from there play out straight.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 14:45:45


Post by: gorgon


 sebster wrote:
Jon isn't think in terms of alliances at all. He is fixated on stopping the army of the dead and thinks that should be everyone else's priority as well. He isn't wrong that it should be everyone's priority, but the reality is, as Tyrion explained, that other people can't completely change their thinking just because of a conversation with Jon.

Jon doesn't get that, of course. The guy has never been full of insightful thinking.


Jon tells Tyrion in the episode that he knows it's a hard question, and that he's looking for answers (from Tyrion, who doesn't really have them either).

Really, one could solve a lot of problems in the world if there WAS an easy answer for how to get human beings to look at the long-term and greater good instead of their short-term selfish concerns. That's arguably one of the key overarching themes of ASOIAF.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.


A lot of clever fans figured out a lot of things ahead of time, but even if they hadn't then by now the rest of us regular audience goers would have figured out he was pretty damn important because of all the things he's done, and the massive revelation about his origin.

So now it's only natural to wonder if there's one more twist in the tail. It'd be pretty strange for a story that's been full of twists to make its big reveal in the back of season 5, and then just have everything from there play out straight.


Perhaps, but what has the show actually revealed? It's been far more straightforward and streamlined, and has withheld Azor Ahai and PWWP references and stories from the books that got readers theorizing. I don't believe that the showrunners have even explained

Spoiler:
how Rhaegar had intentionally set out to either fulfill the PWWP prophecy himself, or sire the child who would. In the show, we only really know the basic facts about Jon's birth and not the greater context. There's more to learn about Jon for those only familiar with the show.


Show Melisandre doesn't seem sure whether Jon or Daenerys is the one, and I think that's where the showrunners want viewers to sit as of now. Which seems reasonable to me based on what we've actually seen in the show. I think there will be plenty of surprised viewers no matter how things break.

And heck, there are still those who think Jaime will fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. *shrug*


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 16:58:17


Post by: Ouze


Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.

Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 17:40:10


Post by: nels1031


 Ouze wrote:
Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.

Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.


I believe the 6 episode thing is deceptive though, aren't we getting 1hr 30 min episodes in the final season?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 19:05:09


Post by: LunarSol


The primary issue with all things Azor Ahai is that people have had time to contemplate and explore every logical answer and their implications, so there's not much opportunity for a really satisfying surprise outside of illogical answers that wouldn't be particularly satisfying.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 20:58:35


Post by: Mr Morden



Jon tells Tyrion in the episode that he knows it's a hard question, and that he's looking for answers (from Tyrion, who doesn't really have them either).

Really, one could solve a lot of problems in the world if there WAS an easy answer for how to get human beings to look at the long-term and greater good instead of their short-term selfish concerns. That's arguably one of the key overarching themes of ASOIAF.


Tyron also asks why he wont bend the knee if time is of the essence and nothing matters but uniting against the dead - but somehow that gesture is just too much.....hypocrite much and indeed making his fathers mistakes.

Sacrificing the title (which he doesn;t even want) would have shown Dany that "the childish games" did not matter to Jon - if he had gone -

I dont care if I am King of the North, Warden of the North, Commander of the Nghts Watch or simply Jon Snow, bastard - it matters not because the dead are coming and they care nothing for names or titles. I'll bend the knee because it does not matter - only the war against the dead matters. Will you join me in this war?"


Or something better along those lines.

Of course, Euron only took like 2 episodes to suddenly become a major threat, so who knows.
good writing, good acting - something that the show has shown itself more than capable of producing (well not in Dorne but the exception that proves the rule maybe)

I don't really care if the ending becomes predictable with Dany and Jon fighting the wraiths together - as long as its done well it will be good. They are Fire and Ice -job done - now lets watch the story unfold and them kick ass.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/02 21:38:02


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 01:15:03


Post by: Audustum


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?


Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).

Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 02:30:44


Post by: sebster


 Ouze wrote:
Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.


Yeah, they can't shift it to some other character at this point, I agree. But GoT with a few exceptions GoT is not a show that's let anything play out predictably.

That's why I think Azor Ahai will be Jon and/or Daenerys, but it won't play out like a typical saviour story. The Red Priestess's serving the Lord of Light have done some mighty sinister stuff, and are constantly hinting at things even more sinister. Azor Ahai may well stop the army of the dead, but then whoever survives will have to stop Azor Ahai.

That's my theory anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).


It is a huge mistake in any negotiations to volunteer to the other party how weak your negotiating position actually is.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 03:32:45


Post by: Audustum


 sebster wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
Another consideration, in terms of Azor Ahai twists, is that the show is very rapidly running out of runway. This season is 7 episodes, and next season is 6, and then the show is done. Out of 13 episodes of GoT left forever, we have 10 remaining. It's hard to think they spent so long building the Jon/Dany narrative (many seasons) only to suddenly shift at the last second to some rando.


Yeah, they can't shift it to some other character at this point, I agree. But GoT with a few exceptions GoT is not a show that's let anything play out predictably.

That's why I think Azor Ahai will be Jon and/or Daenerys, but it won't play out like a typical saviour story. The Red Priestess's serving the Lord of Light have done some mighty sinister stuff, and are constantly hinting at things even more sinister. Azor Ahai may well stop the army of the dead, but then whoever survives will have to stop Azor Ahai.

That's my theory anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).


It is a huge mistake in any negotiations to volunteer to the other party how weak your negotiating position actually is.


U.S. Presidents pulled the "well I'd totally support you but Congress won't, you gotta give me something to give them" strategy tons of time. I don't think it'd be bad for Jon to say "I absolutely would bend the knee but I can't because the nobles won't listen. You gotta come North and kill White Walkers to earn their trust".


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 06:54:30


Post by: Mr Morden


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?


Even Jon says that is never going to happen because a war is already ongoing. Dany can't march north because the Lannisters / Euron would attack her forces / supply lines - not that there would be enough food and fodder for the Dothraki up north anyway,

At the point that Jon was asked to bend the knee - Dany did not need his forces - she wanted a gesture to her rule. Jon refused and then lectured on how petty squabbles were meaningless. She still does not need them - the Vale cavalry might be handy but are not really needed.

The dead will stumble around lost until its narratively right for them to suddenly appear again and travel time is equally narrative at the moment so its all a bit irrelevant.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 07:24:07


Post by: sebster


Audustum wrote:
U.S. Presidents pulled the "well I'd totally support you but Congress won't, you gotta give me something to give them" strategy tons of time. I don't think it'd be bad for Jon to say "I absolutely would bend the knee but I can't because the nobles won't listen. You gotta come North and kill White Walkers to earn their trust".


Yeah, they pull that once they're in office, once the voters have given them power. In terms of the analogy, that's like Jon explaining the real situation as he's rowing out of the harbour with a boat full of dragon glass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
At the point that Jon was asked to bend the knee - Dany did not need his forces - she wanted a gesture to her rule. Jon refused and then lectured on how petty squabbles were meaningless. She still does not need them - the Vale cavalry might be handy but are not really needed.


Jon can't pledge the Vale cavalry anyway, can he? The Vale is a seperate kingdom, under House Arryn. Little Finger had no obligation to assist, apart from seeing it as the best opportunity for his own ambitions (Starks are less dangerous and easier to manipulate than Boltons).

Unless there's something I'm missing about how the whole Kingdom of the North works, which wouldn't surprise me.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 17:39:59


Post by: Ratius


Been enjoying this season so far. Its not perfect, I dont think the dialogue is as snappy and engaging as the early seaons, theres definitely a bit of wand waving with the Ironlord Captain guy and some characters need more air time like Brann and that big guy that got burned in the fire.
Buts its a major improvement on the last season and has had some epic moments (the big ship battle was really terrific imo).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 17:58:19


Post by: gorgon


The dialogue lost a lot of punch after they passed GRRM's work. You notice this most with Tyrion, who seemingly spent an entire season cracking lame dwarf jokes with no wit in sight. However, I thought the exchanges between Jon & Daenerys and Jon & Tyrion were decently written.

I don't get what people see in the actor playing Euron. I can't see how there's enough scenery left to film after he's done chewing it all.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 19:06:46


Post by: Da krimson barun


The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.
Euron was as wonderfully awful as ever. Hammy, but an effective tool to make Danys victory more satisfying after a few setbacks. At least he got a few Sand snakes.
Casterly rock and Highgarden looked like garbage and apparently almost all of the completely untouched reach army all disappeared, and the remainder can't hold a great houses castle. Oh and Euron teleported to the other side of the continent.
Bran is extra creepy.
Littlefinger is extra weird.
Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
But it was all worth it for Euron Greyjoy,the official OURGUY of the remaining Stannermen, and Dany getting mad.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 19:38:13


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da krimson barun wrote:
The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.
Euron was as wonderfully awful as ever. Hammy, but an effective tool to make Danys victory more satisfying after a few setbacks. At least he got a few Sand snakes.
Casterly rock and Highgarden looked like garbage and apparently almost all of the completely untouched reach army all disappeared, and the remainder can't hold a great houses castle. Oh and Euron teleported to the other side of the continent.
Bran is extra creepy.
Littlefinger is extra weird.
Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
But it was all worth it for Euron Greyjoy,the official OURGUY of the remaining Stannermen, and Dany getting mad.


Jon is a good exmaple of why i dislike all the Stark males not too bright, focussed on "Da Honah" above all else and holier than thou. I want an army and I want you to do this and I want ---- I probably do that if you make a gesture of beniding the knee - No no the war is not that important but still I want.... Ok your annoying and Tyrion thinks it will help so here is everything you wanted and help to get it - Hmm Well thanks, I am off then.

Sansa was at least trying to make plans and sort out stuff and her advice was correct.

Bran needs a axe in the head - so. very . annoying.

Dany also said - and the 7 Kingdoms were are at peace and prosperous under her ancestors (she left out the stuff about Targayrian civil wars I note) Of course she is entitled - she is a Queen! She also should have learned herself from her ancestors - they came over , burned all resistance and set up home and soon everyone was happy to play nice with the Dragon folk.

Agreed re Tyrell army - wonderfully useless even defending a fortress against infantry and cavalry without siege engines.

Euorn is great fun. theTheon "what a T$%t" line was hilarious and the taunting of Jamie is also great.

The dialogue this week was spot on - and get interchanges between the various parties

Still its going to be soo much better than the books, thats pretty much certain.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/03 22:08:35


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Da krimson barun wrote:

Sansa is giving useless advice about leather on breastplates.
.


Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/04 04:14:51


Post by: sebster


 Da krimson barun wrote:
The Dany/Jon scenes were a stark(geddit?)reminder of why I despise her.
"Your ancestors bent the knee to mine and your dad was Roberts best friend!"
"Your dad burned my grandfather alive."
"Don't judge daughters by their fathers!"
She's so damn entitled.


Well yeah she's entitled. Being heir to a kingdom is pretty much the definition of entitled.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/04 21:28:14


Post by: Mario


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.
Mabye the smiths were imported from the Vale (via Littlefinger). Who knows how many non-Bolton craftsmen were alive (I didn't really pay attention, do they look like northerners?).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/04 22:37:36


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Mario wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Useless? Not having something between bare metal and you in winter is not a good idea.
That said, the fact that the armorers couldn't work that out themselves is hilarious.
Mabye the smiths were imported from the Vale (via Littlefinger). Who knows how many non-Bolton craftsmen were alive (I didn't really pay attention, do they look like northerners?).


IIRC the breast plates they were making resembled the armour of the Vale.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/05 19:53:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


They should still know better. That's like common sense; a blacksmith should know metal gets cold. You mean to tell me that their master, at some point, never said to them "metal gets really cold, so unless you want people to have frozen nibbles you should really cover the breastplate with leather in winter"

I know the seasons are super screwed up in the word of aSoIaF, but you'd think it would be knowledge passed down because of how important it is.
It really feels like an attempt to make Sansa look intelligent by making everyone else dumb in comparison.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 15:49:15


Post by: Ouze


So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 17:10:30


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Ouze wrote:
So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?


2 possibilities that I can see :

- They are sent back to Mereen to protect her empire there and so that the Westerosi lords stop being so nervous.

- She keeps them in Westeros to try to intimidate the lords into not turning against her. Something like "be nice, or I send in the Dothraki"


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 17:11:03


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ouze wrote:
So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.

You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 20:01:37


Post by: Battle Brother Lucifer


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.

You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)


Theres still tonights episode, im guessing team Cercei scores another victory or two before thibgs straighten out

I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 20:42:33


Post by: Ouze


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.

You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)


Their whole way of life seems massively incompatible with how Daenerys wants to run Westeros. This seems like a huge issue in waiting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor


That's dark, even for GoT.

Ygritte was burned though to avoid exactly that.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/06 21:56:25


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:
I had a sad thought; if Jorah finds Jon and Co and rejoins, he might need to face the Wight version of his father, as Jon will Wight Yggrette, and Bran Wight Hodor


That'd be unlikely I think...Because Jeor Mormont's corpse was disposed of, and his skull was turned into a drinking cup.

Ygritte's body was burned, as were all of the dead from the Battle of the Wall.

Hodor however is DEFINITELY a wight now, given that he was directly killed by and in the presence of the White Walkers and their undead thralls. I think we might well see him again sadly.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
So, I was thinking. Let's say Daenerys does manage to conquer the seven kingdoms.

What does she do with the Dothraki afterward?
Send them home - they will likely be happy to go back to the normal lives - some might stay - most won't.

You dont want a massive horde of bored warriors (in fact it should have been an issue already)


Their whole way of life seems massively incompatible with how Daenerys wants to run Westeros. This seems like a huge issue in waiting.


I doubt it'll get to that point. I'm sure Daenerys, and in particular her Westerosi advisors Jorah and Tyrion are well aware of how incompatible the Dothraki are with Westeros. I expect them to treat the Dothraki as cannon fodder of sorts, putting them in the front line as berzerker shock troops. Their numbers will be severely depleted very quickly.

By the wars end, and especially by the end of the Long Night, the Dothraki numbers will be far more manageable.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 04:44:19


Post by: Yodhrin


Well, that happened

Spoiler:
Honestly, I was expecting it to all go horribly wrong for Daenerys, but she may well just have evened the odds with Cersei completely depending on how much of the Lannister army was at the battle. At the very least King's Landing is totally fethed for food when winter hits them.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 06:46:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


That was a seriously good episode. Ramped things up nicely, without going OTT.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 07:09:49


Post by: AduroT


 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, that happened

Spoiler:
Honestly, I was expecting it to all go horribly wrong for Daenerys, but she may well just have evened the odds with Cersei completely depending on how much of the Lannister army was at the battle. At the very least King's Landing is totally fethed for food when winter hits them.


I'm kind of sad the gold made it into the city. I really wanted to see the banker's change of heart when he didn't get paid.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 09:27:45


Post by: H.B.M.C.


FWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHH!!!!!!

Heheheh.

So now we kinda know what would happen if you gave an army of Mongol cavalry an A-10 for support.

Damn the Lanisters got wrecked.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 09:47:07


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
FWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHH!!!!!!

Heheheh.

So now we kinda know what would happen if you gave an army of Mongol cavalry an A-10 for support.

Damn the Lanisters got wrecked.


"I love the smell of dragon fire in the morning. Smells like...victory"
Lanny don't surf


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 11:49:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the matter of the Gold seemingly reaching King's Landing.

Part of me feels that was a cop out. Cersei would've been up a certain creek missing a specific implement if it hadn't. And I'm sure that's something we're all desperate to see, no?

But.....

On the other hand, I think it's still the lesser of two cop outs. Cersei can now repay the Iron Bank, which keeps her, more or less, in the fight. But for borrowing more money? Well, how is she going to pay that one?

As covered early in the episode, the Lannister army isn't really trying to hold High Garden, nor one assumes it's Gold Mines and other resources. So they won't necessarily get the income it's famed for.

Then we have Qyburn's 'master stroke' - The Scorpion. Touted as a way to take care of the Dragons, this episode showed that even in the hands of the one most competent warriors, they're really not all that great. Loosed over great distance, and your target can dodge it, even if you are on target in the first place. Up close? Well, better be a kill shot, because you're totally not going to get another one.

Worse, Dany now knows such things exist. We've already seen a new fancy flying from her, using the Dragon's chest to deflect the arrows heading for her. Given her bond with the Dragons, should be too hard to get them to do something broadly similar about the Scorpion's bolts. The element of surprise is gone - and there seem few enough Lannisters left on the field to report that....

And that was just one of the Dragons taking the field - and if my eyes don't deceive, it wasn't even the biggest of the trio. If memory serves, it was Viserion. If they come down from on high altogether, any wall mounted batteries may struggle to draw a bead on them....and a cover of blazing fire is pretty good for putting anyone of their aim.

With both of things in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Iron Bank simply take what they're owed, and go on home. Not only is Cersei far from a certain bet, she may incur debts she can't then repay.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 12:21:33


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


No, Drogon is definitely the biggest Dragon. Viserion and Rhaegal were locked away in an underground chamber in Meereen for several months or years, which stunted their growth. Drogon on the other hand was free range, which permitted his growth.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 12:22:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I was meaning Dany wasn't riding Drogon?

I may be wrong. Was watching it on my commute to work. Shall pay closer attention tonight when I watch it again!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 13:04:00


Post by: Necros


That was the kind of battle I've been waiting 7 seasons for. Pretty awesome. I really thought Bronn was gonna get toasted just because he seemed to have a lot of screen time all the sudden after having none for a while.

I think, eventually, tyrion is gonna convince jamie that they gotta fight the white walkers instead of each other and they'll all team up together, after Jamie kills Cerci. But then, how much of the Lannister army was just reduced to charred husks? Seemed like a whole lot. And I bet most of the ones that weren't are running for the hills or planning to at least.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 13:09:14


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I was meaning Dany wasn't riding Drogon?

I may be wrong. Was watching it on my commute to work. Shall pay closer attention tonight when I watch it again!


Danny only rides Drogon (the black one), she does not ride Viserion or Rhaegal. Drogon was the dragon she rode into battle with the Lannisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Necros wrote:
That was the kind of battle I've been waiting 7 seasons for. Pretty awesome. I really thought Bronn was gonna get toasted just because he seemed to have a lot of screen time all the sudden after having none for a while.

I think, eventually, tyrion is gonna convince jamie that they gotta fight the white walkers instead of each other and they'll all team up together, after Jamie kills Cerci. But then, how much of the Lannister army was just reduced to charred husks? Seemed like a whole lot. And I bet most of the ones that weren't are running for the hills or planning to at least.


From the promo trailer for the next episode, the survivors surrender to Daenerys who orders them to "Bend the knee or die".


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 13:44:20


Post by: Yodhrin


Also, while the battle was great: Maisie Williams is killing it this season. Every time you start to get lured into thinking of Arya in the context of how she used to be, one wee look or comment reminds you there's a pretty fethed up shapeshifting murderer lurking under the surface.

Spoiler:
The problem is I now have a horrible suspicion she's for the chop. The "Chaos is a ladder" comment from Bran along with his gift of the dagger to Arya, Arya's death-stare towards Littlefinger; I suspect the implication is Arya will get a rundown on what a slimy wee weasel Littlefinger actually is and take a pop at him, but this being GoT it's rare a "baddie" gets their comeuppance without a hefty price being paid.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:03:25


Post by: djones520


No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:22:43


Post by: gorgon


Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:35:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.


And her Mum's. And her Aunt's. And pretty much everyone she knows he's directly or indirectly responsible for the death of.

If that's how the face thing actually works!


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:36:53


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 gorgon wrote:
Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....


Judging from the Season 7 plot leak...I think the identity of the 3rd Dragon Rider will surprise you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.


And her Mum's. And her Aunt's. And pretty much everyone she knows he's directly or indirectly responsible for the death of.

If that's how the face thing actually works!


In the books no, you need to actually skin a person's face and turn it into a mask to assume their identity.

In the show however...who the feth knows.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:47:19


Post by: Necros


I think though Littlefinger is smart enough to know that if someone he knew was dead was suddenly coming at him, it's not really them. It would have to be someone alive, like Sansa's face. But he would probably also know that Sansa is like a whole head taller.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:50:08


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Necros wrote:
I think though Littlefinger is smart enough to know that if someone he knew was dead was suddenly coming at him, it's not really them. It would have to be someone alive, like Sansa's face. But he would probably also know that Sansa is like a whole head taller.


I think he'll be too busy gaking himself to be smart.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 14:52:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We've seen them preparing bodies and hanging the faces up, so we can assume it's as per the books I'd say.

I reckon Arya is just gonna straight up murder him to death in the face until he's killed by violence and stabbing.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 15:07:18


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We've seen them preparing bodies and hanging the faces up, so we can assume it's as per the books I'd say.

I reckon Arya is just gonna straight up murder him to death in the face until he's killed by violence and stabbing.


The show is inconsistent even with itself. One of the Faceless Men was wearing Arya's own face, but she has not been skinned (to the best of our knowledge).


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 15:34:52


Post by: LunarSol


If she's going to wear any face while killing him, it will be Catelyn's. I assume that will replace the notably missing character from the books.

That was a fantastic episode for sure. I went to do some painting afterwards and couldn't keep my hands steady enough to get anything done.

The Scorpion being not particularly effective as a precision piece still means it will do the job of protecting the Red Keep where it can win out on volume of fire.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 16:21:10


Post by: gorgon


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....


Judging from the Season 7 plot leak...I think the identity of the 3rd Dragon Rider will surprise you...


I've stayed away from the plot leak, so I'm sure I'm vulnerable to a surprise.

It's probably important to note that it was book fans spawning the rider theories, and the show isn't the book, so details leading one in a certain direction may be completely irrelevant when it comes to the show.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 17:22:37


Post by: Ouze


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Judging from the Season 7 plot leak..


That one specific leak is the one that makes me wish the most I had not read them, but dammit, I didn't know they would all turn out to be true.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 17:41:04


Post by: Necros


I read the plot leak a while ago, but I don't remember any of it. I'm old.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 17:51:41


Post by: gorgon


 Necros wrote:
I read the plot leak a while ago, but I don't remember any of it. I'm old.


Yeah, know what you mean. It's possible I read them but the details got mixed in with some other clickbait or something ("These Game of Thrones Leaks Are INSANE!"). I don't really remember anything about who the riders were.

And quite frankly, Twin Peaks is still getting the bulk of my attention and rumination anyway.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 18:01:35


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


So no one else thought it was hilarious that Danny failed spectacularly to achieve the objective of her assault? Sure she eliminated the a fair chunk of the Lannister forces, but the whole reason she ultimately unleashed the Horde and Dragons wasn't to kill them, but to seize the food train, something she spoke about like 15 minutes earlier in the episode. Which she instead roasted.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 18:02:34


Post by: ImAGeek


 Ouze wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Judging from the Season 7 plot leak..


That one specific leak is the one that makes me wish the most I had not read them, but dammit, I didn't know they would all turn out to be true.


Yep, same here.

I really liked that episode. I was pretty split on who I was rooting for in the battle as well, to the point where when the arrow hit Drogon I was like 'good shot Bronn' before 'wait, no'.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 18:35:53


Post by: Compel


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

The show is inconsistent even with itself. One of the Faceless Men was wearing Arya's own face, but she has not been skinned (to the best of our knowledge).


It's been a while since I've seen that scene but, I wouldn't rule that as the be-all and end-all of things. If I remember right, there were a shedload of drugs, fumes and quite possibly poison going on in that scene.

In other words, she could have just been SUPER high at the time, or it being metaphorical, etc.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 22:19:42


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


I liked the episode, and I think a large part of me was rooting for the Lannisters to be, well, less royally fethed (although that might have been because a guy from my old school was in the cast in that scene). Still, I found myself so conflicted as to who to support in that.

Bran's messed up - it makes sense, and I think it certainly "justifies" his comments to Sansa. Littlefinger's going to want him removed from the field, that's for certain - the "chaos is a ladder" quote coming back to bite him.

The "cave of convenience" - part of me would have found it kind of hilarious if Jon had drawn them himself, to get Daenerys on his side. I'm guessing he might have bent the knee in the cave, considering how Daenerys is beginning to push Tyrion out if the way and put Jon in the spotlight (and not unrightly so - Tyrion's current battle plans have all failed, and she's lost the Dornish, the Tyrells, Greyjoys, and the Unsullied.

Back onto Daenerys' armies, I really didn't expect the Dothraki to be as good as they were. Drogon, absolutely OP and I loved it (though Daenerys, PLEASE wear some kind of armour? One stray arrow and that brooch isn't going to do feth!), but the Dothraki felt a little TOO good. I mean, they were going up against a shieldwall (hastily assembled, but still formed), with spears/pikes behind, and archers behind them. A solid formation, especially against light cavalry. And don't forget, as Jorah demonstrates in Season 1, Dothraki are not used to fighting armoured targets. Yet here, they cut through well armoured Lannister soldiers like butter. I don't know, I just felt they were a little too good, considering they were light cavalry without any kind of ranged attacks. Still Drogon's a beast by my books - though he might be a little more intimidated now.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 22:41:48


Post by: Compel


Yeah, I think it would have been better for both Dany and the Lannisters if they had been able to more explicitly highlight.

Lannister shield wall > Dothraki.

Giant feth off dragon >>>>>>>>>>> Lannister Shield Wall

Dothraki >>>>> Broken Lannister Shield Wall.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 22:43:25


Post by: Mr Morden


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I liked the episode, and I think a large part of me was rooting for the Lannisters to be, well, less royally fethed (although that might have been because a guy from my old school was in the cast in that scene). Still, I found myself so conflicted as to who to support in that.

Bran's messed up - it makes sense, and I think it certainly "justifies" his comments to Sansa. Littlefinger's going to want him removed from the field, that's for certain - the "chaos is a ladder" quote coming back to bite him.

The "cave of convenience" - part of me would have found it kind of hilarious if Jon had drawn them himself, to get Daenerys on his side. I'm guessing he might have bent the knee in the cave, considering how Daenerys is beginning to push Tyrion out if the way and put Jon in the spotlight (and not unrightly so - Tyrion's current battle plans have all failed, and she's lost the Dornish, the Tyrells, Greyjoys, and the Unsullied.

Back onto Daenerys' armies, I really didn't expect the Dothraki to be as good as they were. Drogon, absolutely OP and I loved it (though Daenerys, PLEASE wear some kind of armour? One stray arrow and that brooch isn't going to do feth!), but the Dothraki felt a little TOO good. I mean, they were going up against a shieldwall (hastily assembled, but still formed), with spears/pikes behind, and archers behind them. A solid formation, especially against light cavalry. And don't forget, as Jorah demonstrates in Season 1, Dothraki are not used to fighting armoured targets. Yet here, they cut through well armoured Lannister soldiers like butter. I don't know, I just felt they were a little too good, considering they were light cavalry without any kind of ranged attacks. Still Drogon's a beast by my books - though he might be a little more intimidated now.


Cavalry can't usually break a good shield wall directly - very true and something usually wrong in Fantasy games.

But here the Dragon burned ahole in the wall and also scared the crap out of the remaining soliders - plus the Dothraki did have archers - - theya re shown several times - usually the real strength of similar historical nomad armies.

Great scenes - especially the confusion. I think they have to have something go Dany's way - they had already destroyed all of her Westros allies and cuaght the Unsullied out. Wonder if thats Born dead. They are cutting characaters and isn't he unable to be on Screen with Lena?

Blowing up the food was a bit stupid - kill the soldiers and take the food to feed your own army!

How annoying is Bran. I noticed they mentioned the Gold Company - please pelase don;t have the fething awful plot line.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 23:04:30


Post by: Tamereth


Really not much bad to say about the whole episode. The battle really made up for the lack luster efforts last time out. I can see where the budget went.

I figure this season will round up the war for the iron throne, and next season will be all about "the great war" where anyone left faces off against the white walkers.

Theon meeting Jon was a bit under played, but then Jon could hardly murder one of dany's allies in that situation.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 23:09:05


Post by: djones520


The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 23:31:41


Post by: Irishpeacockz


The shield wall was hastily assembled and seemed to be stretched thin (as mentioned by Randall or Jaime). They were also just after fighting a siege and marched some of the way to Kings Landing, wouldn't be surprised if they were tired. Heck Tarly suggested flogging them which suggests that they were slowing down due to fatigue, no doubt the Lannisters were caught off guard in a variety of factors


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/07 23:39:57


Post by: d-usa


Audustum wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?


Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).

Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).


I think the last episode really missed the mark where they could have driven that home.

They go on a whole tirade about how she's their queen because they picked her and believe in her, not because she's some king's daughter. Which is just a huge opening to point out that John is their king because they picked him and believe in him, not because he has a legit claim.

Of course as a Targ he has as much of a claim as anyone to either throne...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 08:21:01


Post by: Mr Morden


 d-usa wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?


Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).

Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).


I think the last episode really missed the mark where they could have driven that home.

They go on a whole tirade about how she's their queen because they picked her and believe in her, not because she's some king's daughter. Which is just a huge opening to point out that John is their king because they picked him and believe in him, not because he has a legit claim.

Of course as a Targ he has as much of a claim as anyone to either throne...


The "Tirade" was a conversation where, as Tyrion suggested to him, Jon asked people who were with Dany had chosen her. Missande told them her story - its hardly a "tirade".


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 08:31:39


Post by: reds8n


 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.


Mums face to seduce/throw him off balance.

dads face to kill him

either way I expect a recreation of

Spoiler:






but with a sharper ending, so to speak.



.. Fair play to Jamie Lannister : say what you like about him he ain't no coward.

No way I'd have charged that thing !

... Bronn who saved him yeah ?

Wonder if Jamie will be captured (again) which could reunite with him with Brienne and/or provide a way to let the Laniisters/other factions know that the dead are coming ?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 08:46:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Was I the only Nerd thinking 'OH NOES! MORTUL WOOOOUNDS!' when Drogon (yes, I now accept I was wrong. It's definitely Drogon) set light to the Lannisters?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 13:52:02


Post by: Mr Morden


 reds8n wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.


Mums face to seduce/throw him off balance.

dads face to kill him

either way I expect a recreation of

Spoiler:






but with a sharper ending, so to speak.



.. Fair play to Jamie Lannister : say what you like about him he ain't no coward.

No way I'd have charged that thing !

... Bronn who saved him yeah ?

Wonder if Jamie will be captured (again) which could reunite with him with Brienne and/or provide a way to let the Laniisters/other factions know that the dead are coming ?



Arya could just walk into his room at night and stab him with her new dagger.

Was it Bron or the other guy who saved him before? I think Jamie will be captured and likely the only way to get Cersei to talk to anyone is holding her beloved brother hostage. Plus likely the city now has AA defences and conversely Dany knows they do.

Be interested to see the Iron Bank reacts when the threat of the dead (if they ever manage to reach the wall - seriosuly how long have they been "nearly threre") - also if the Iron bank has not left when the siege starts - will Dany and co let him go?

I guess the dead might be saying - hey hold up - lets just let the living kill each other some more - more resorces for us and less resistance - do we know how old bodies can be animated?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 14:06:35


Post by: Yodhrin





Mini-documentary about the effects, tech, planning etc of the battle. Honestly I wasn't expecting the giant "mechanical bull" setup for Dany, hah. The stuntmen casually talking about keeping their heartrate low so they don't accidentally breath in while on fire and crisp their own lungs is...I dunno, is there a word for "impressive but also slightly terrifying"?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 15:32:30


Post by: Mr Morden


great mini docu - thanks


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 16:29:36


Post by: Ratius


Anyone think this seasons episodes have been very formulaic?
The last 3 have all had the first two thirds with the various factions discussing their politics/tactics/allegencies and then boom, big battle/fight for the last third or quarter.
They need to mix it up a bit I feel because its getting a bit predictable.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 18:01:33


Post by: gorgon


Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 18:09:13


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 18:54:21


Post by: LunarSol


Martin's reference material goes downhill after the third book. I'd generally say the show's writing has improved once it got past the latest tomes, but has definitely had issues with the introduction of fast travel. I get it though; the series just spent too much time moving characters around without them going anywhere to keep sending characters in directions that will matter next season or 3.

The series just really need that time skip after book 3 to settle the characters and let things happen off page to ambush them later. There's a sense that for too long they've just been facing the challenges put before them without those challenges building to anything greater. Arya's training, Jon's ranging, Danny's struggles with ruling and quite a bit of the rest could have been skipped over and made it possible to reintroduce them again when they mattered.

The show has largely done well minimizing what doesn't matter, but the fault is ultimately in the source material as far as I'm concerned.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/08 19:48:44


Post by: gorgon


 Mr Morden wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.


The dialogue has been ordinary and only saved by a good group of actors. Although the Euron performance is more OTT than anything William Shatner would attempt. Euron is a silly, shallow TV villain, right out of the Ramsey mold with a scenery-chewing performance to match.

Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.

The showrunners have absolutely no idea how to write for or what to do with Tyrion, and it's probably the object lesson for their shortcomings. You can see this in how they shelved him in Meereen for an entire season and giving him little other than self-deprecating dwarf jokes. He's probably the most interesting character in the novels overall, but has only been saved by the actor in recent seasons.


@LunarSol -- I agree about the dropoff after book 3. But nothing we're seeing is as well written as the episodes up through that material. And I'm not sure if the showrunners 'improved' on any book 4 and 5 material beyond just getting through it as quickly as possible. Dorne was terrible, and didn't need to be.

Again, I still enjoy the show, but it's just brain candy now, and spends too much time trying to win Twitter with "OMG did you see what happened on GoT" comments.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/09 00:08:36


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.


The dialogue has been ordinary and only saved by a good group of actors. Although the Euron performance is more OTT than anything William Shatner would attempt. Euron is a silly, shallow TV villain, right out of the Ramsey mold with a scenery-chewing performance to match.

Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.

The showrunners have absolutely no idea how to write for or what to do with Tyrion, and it's probably the object lesson for their shortcomings. You can see this in how they shelved him in Meereen for an entire season and giving him little other than self-deprecating dwarf jokes. He's probably the most interesting character in the novels overall, but has only been saved by the actor in recent seasons.


@LunarSol -- I agree about the dropoff after book 3. But nothing we're seeing is as well written as the episodes up through that material. And I'm not sure if the showrunners 'improved' on any book 4 and 5 material beyond just getting through it as quickly as possible. Dorne was terrible, and didn't need to be.

Again, I still enjoy the show, but it's just brain candy now, and spends too much time trying to win Twitter with "OMG did you see what happened on GoT" comments.


Disagree with everything in your first section.

I would say that they improved on every single element (except Dorne - is there anyone who likes Show Drone) that GRM churned out in the turgid, dismal books 4 and 5 which I got rid of as soon as I forced myself to read through them.

Meerem is far better in the Show, Dany in particular maintains her character rather than what GRM subjected her to. We don't have the many many pointless dull characters that GRM is so obsessed with in order to avoid advancing the plot.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/09 03:23:31


Post by: sebster


 djones520 wrote:
The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.


Funnily enough I suspect it might be harder to get a horse to run through fire, than to get it to break a shield wall just two men deep


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


I think a lot of this is simply due to time restrictions. There's a lot they need to set up and resolve and not a lot of episodes left to do it.

The other issue is that depth and complexity, adding more elements, is something of a natural enemy of resolution. You can't keep world building at the same time you're trying to finish the story. Adding anything new at this stage, either subplot or character kills is likely to kill momentum. And anything new that does manage to advance the story towards its end, like Euron, rubs people the wrong way, it has an arbitrary feeling to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.


I was genuinely hoping that Bron would die. Not because I don't like him, but because I don't want yet another plot armour character. It would have felt fitting for Bron to die in that fight. Afterall the guy never had a character arc*, he's just a dude who fought and got paid for it. He would have died doing what he loved, fighting and getting paid for it.



*And a lot of the early appeal of GoT was the willingness to kill of characters with little warning, without giving any kind of satisfying end to their character arcs. But as I suspected at the time of the Red Wedding this wasn't actually true. There was always a core of characters who couldn't die, because they were too important to the story or because the creators liked them so much, same as every story. But GRR Martin just hid this through the first few books, by making us think Ned, Rob & Catelyn were the protagonists. Sure enough, the core characters in the wake of the Red Wedding are the core characters now. Around them is a list of characters that come, become essential for a time before getting knocked off as well, but the core cast now have plot armour, surviving impossible things often by last second deus ex, being brought back from the dead etc. The same old stuff that's always used in fantasy to keep the core characters alive.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/09 14:09:52


Post by: gorgon


 Mr Morden wrote:
Meerem is far better in the Show, Dany in particular maintains her character rather than what GRM subjected her to. We don't have the many many pointless dull characters that GRM is so obsessed with in order to avoid advancing the plot.


Meereen isn't very interesting in either medium. Daenerys is just different in the books. You're fixated on the character, so you like the show's more likeable interpretation. And the rest is again about streamlining in the name of plot advancement.

I just don't think these writers can do superior work with this story without Martin giving them the road map. Their adaptation of the early books was excellent. Lately it's been a few notches below that, although it's an entertaining brain candy exercise, as I said.

 sebster wrote:
*And a lot of the early appeal of GoT was the willingness to kill of characters with little warning, without giving any kind of satisfying end to their character arcs. But as I suspected at the time of the Red Wedding this wasn't actually true. There was always a core of characters who couldn't die, because they were too important to the story or because the creators liked them so much, same as every story. But GRR Martin just hid this through the first few books, by making us think Ned, Rob & Catelyn were the protagonists. Sure enough, the core characters in the wake of the Red Wedding are the core characters now. Around them is a list of characters that come, become essential for a time before getting knocked off as well, but the core cast now have plot armour, surviving impossible things often by last second deus ex, being brought back from the dead etc. The same old stuff that's always used in fantasy to keep the core characters alive.



I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 00:45:10


Post by: trexmeyer


 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.


You're correct. It jumped the shark with the first scene of season seven, Arya disguised as Walder Frey giving a condescending speech before they all drank poison and died was pure cheese. It was pushing Matt Ward levels of OTT.

The show is basically coasting off the strength of previous scenes and everyone's desire to see the next big battle. Should the books ever be released I think they'll be markedly better.

Edit: Euron is just awful. It doesn't help that his character is a weird mixture of book Euron and Victarion. His character is resoundingly obnoxious and all of his action scenes have stunk of pure plot contrivance. How does he manage to locate Dany's fleet in the middle of the night and ram into his sister's ship perfectly? And the scene before that included the worst line of dialogue in the show..."a foreign invasion is underway"...just really?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 02:01:20


Post by: sebster


 gorgon wrote:
I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.


I agree about plot armour being used in place of simple risk avoidance. I guess part of this comes down to the need in TV of having key characters present in the big set pieces. In a book you can just have a character learn of the destruction of Hardhome by correspondence, but in TV if you're going to build a wildling town and organise a thousand extras in a battle scene, then you can't put a minor character there, you need Jon Snow in the scene. Which means it becomes life and death event that Jon survived, in addition to all the others survived by the rest of the favourite characters.

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect the most likely thing at this point is that Azor Ahai will end up being a lot less of a saviour than people assume.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 11:39:18


Post by: Kroem


But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 13:55:26


Post by: gorgon


 sebster wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.


I agree about plot armour being used in place of simple risk avoidance. I guess part of this comes down to the need in TV of having key characters present in the big set pieces. In a book you can just have a character learn of the destruction of Hardhome by correspondence, but in TV if you're going to build a wildling town and organise a thousand extras in a battle scene, then you can't put a minor character there, you need Jon Snow in the scene. Which means it becomes life and death event that Jon survived, in addition to all the others survived by the rest of the favourite characters.

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect the most likely thing at this point is that Azor Ahai will end up being a lot less of a saviour than people assume.


I dunno. Maybe.

I'm just not sure that the show has laid the same groundwork as the books in building to an unconventional ending. Maybe they'll get there through lots of Bran visions and exposition?



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 16:44:14


Post by: Henry


It does give the horrible impression of heading towards a conventional ending - especially with how the sides have aligned. We're supposed to boo and hiss when we see Cersei and Euron are together, we're supposed to get all excited when we see Daenerys and Jon side by side. About the only people on the Lannister side who people could feel affection for are Jamie and Bronn and it wouldn't be no difficulty to write something bland that either kills them in a noble and deserving fashion, have them change sides or survive the eventual cull.

For a program that sold itself on almost everyone being a bunch of murdering gits who are out for power, it is far too easy to say that there is now a definite good and bad side.

Is it wrong that I do not care a jot about the A characters? If Jon Snow drops dead in the next episode I'll be happy. I'm more interested in what happens to the B group - Bronn, Jorah, Hound, Baelish, Brienne and the like.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 17:12:38


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kroem wrote:
But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.


A "coventional" ending would be fine - I honestly can't see a - "yeah well the undead pull thier fingers out of their asses and actually win" going down with the audience - be like filming Stormbringer by Michael Moorcock or many other novels without a happy ending.

Agree re the prophercy nonsense- its a vaugue propercy spouted by horribily unrelaible people to further their own aims - I hope it proves to be irrelvant although it will likely turn out to be fat Sam given how much of hard on GRM has for that character. I always thought GRm put it in so he could show how stupid it is believe in such rubbish



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/10 22:02:46


Post by: Mario


Kroem wrote:I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!

The series/books have shown, like with the red comet, that anything can have multiple but wrong/irrelevant explanations or interpretations for a completely normal but in-universe unexplainable phenomenon. I think it's similar with their magic, it just exists in this universe and some people can use it (for whatever reason) and they have ridiculous rituals surrounding it (religions, greenseer stuff,…) but it's just how we had alchemy in this world and stumbled around in the dark with tiny successes now and then before we developed chemistry and made useful progress.

In the same way everybody cares about this prophecy because it's an important part of the in-universe mythology and they build rituals around it (or used it to manipulate people and so the prophecy grew in power). My guess is that the ending will be conventional in that mankind survives but that's about it. Maybe someone's actions will map onto the prophecy and that person will be proclaimed as the 'Prince that was Promised' but that will be just coincidental.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 02:25:30


Post by: trexmeyer


Anyone else annoyed that it seems the show is going to ignore the Maester Conspiracy?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 02:36:07


Post by: Ouze


 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.


Funnily enough I suspect it might be harder to get a horse to run through fire, than to get it to break a shield wall just two men deep


One of my work friends just mentioned this to me about 2 hours ago: that horses won't actually charge a shield line unless there is a horse-sized hole for them to run through, and they certainly wouldn't jump through fire 8 feet high.

I assumed the latter was artistic license, but I genuinely didn't know the former was.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 03:53:02


Post by: sebster


 Kroem wrote:
I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!


I don't know about anyone else, but that'd be about the worst ending I could imagine. Of all the characters who've had heaven and earth moved just so they could stay alive, none is more obvious than Littlefinger. I like him early on, but his many betrayals have been so obvious that there's no way he wouldn't have been uncovered and put to the sword, except author fiat.

The only Littlefinger scene I've enjoyed in a long time was a couple of episodes ago, when he was giving a smug sermon about seeing every possible outcome, only to be interrupted by Bran returning to Winterfell - didn't see that coming did you you smug prat

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.


I'm not a fan of relying on prophecy, it is almost always lazy writing. But one of the key ideas from the start was taking standard fantasy tropes and turning them on their head. The villain who slayed the king he was sworn to protect... was doing the right thing. The son taking up arms to avenge his father... made most of the same mistakes and was betrayed and killed much like his father. And so on.

The prophecy has been an integral part of the plot line for ASOIF throughout, and so far the way its been addressed has been interesting so far, so I think it is fairly likely that it will be both key to resolution, and come with a final twist. Of course this doesn't mean this final twist will be good or that everyone will like it, they're hard to do, but I think it's pretty likely there'll be at least one last thing in the way the prophecy plays out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
I dunno. Maybe.

I'm just not sure that the show has laid the same groundwork as the books in building to an unconventional ending. Maybe they'll get there through lots of Bran visions and exposition?


They've done a lot of work laying the grounds for misinterpreting prophecy. Melisandre was shown to have been wildly wrong about Stannis. There's been a bunch of stuff showing how language changes lead to misinterpretation. And Danaerys was shown re-interpreting the prophecy entirely driven by what she wants it to mean. And of course, the Red Priestesses are as evil as anyone else in the show, which is a pretty big hint that there's something very dark at the centre of the prophecy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Henry wrote:
It does give the horrible impression of heading towards a conventional ending - especially with how the sides have aligned. We're supposed to boo and hiss when we see Cersei and Euron are together, we're supposed to get all excited when we see Daenerys and Jon side by side.


If it was that simple they wouldn't have spent so much focus in the last battle on the gruesome fates of so many Lannister soldiers. They weren't just killed in noble battle, they were shown cooking in their armour, running in to the water. They were shown being hacked down as they fled the onslaught. We were shown some of this through Tyrion's eyes. It was clear that the battle was to show a victory, but not a triumph.

For a program that sold itself on almost everyone being a bunch of murdering gits who are out for power, it is far too easy to say that there is now a definite good and bad side.


It was never about everyone being murdering gits. There were always more noble, principled characters, pure villains, and plenty in between. What's changed is a that the good and bad characters were mixed in together, Tyrion stayed with the Lannisters for a long time despite knowing the character of his family, for instance. Now the good and bad have largely formed in to clear camps, more or less.

Is it wrong that I do not care a jot about the A characters? If Jon Snow drops dead in the next episode I'll be happy. I'm more interested in what happens to the B group - Bronn, Jorah, Hound, Baelish, Brienne and the like.


Jon's a pretty dull character, he does nothing but earnestly plea to others about how bad the White Walkers are. But the other A characters, Cersei, Danaerys, they're pretty interesting. I think the B list is similarly mixed - Jorah, the Hound, Brienne, they're great. But Baelish has been insufferable for years, and Bronn is long overdue for death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
One of my work friends just mentioned this to me about 2 hours ago: that horses won't actually charge a shield line unless there is a horse-sized hole for them to run through, and they certainly wouldn't jump through fire 8 feet high.

I assumed the latter was artistic license, but I genuinely didn't know the former was.


Yeah, I thought a shallow wall wouldn't stop a horse breaking through. Thinking about it that assumption by me was pretty silly - a horse couldn't assess the depth of a line, it'd just see a solid object and not want to crash through it


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 05:39:10


Post by: AduroT


Pretty much what led to the downfall of chariots. They learned of you put one hole in your line the horse will run thru it, then you have another line behind that hole so the horse stops, and now the first line guts the guys driving the chariot from the sides/rear.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 15:00:04


Post by: LunarSol


I'm less afraid of a conventional ending rooted in well written foreshadowing (that we've had too much time to decipher) and way more afraid of a "bet you didn't see this coming" Mass Effect 3 style Catalyst ending in an attempt to try and be surprising.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 16:47:47


Post by: Mr Morden


 sebster wrote:
Wrote loads of insightful and accurate stuff all of which I agree with



 trexmeyer wrote:
Anyone else annoyed that it seems the show is going to ignore the Maester Conspiracy?


nope - no need for it, no time for it. Ignoring it is for the best - like they should have with Dorne.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 18:11:38


Post by: gorgon


Mario wrote:
Kroem wrote:I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!

The series/books have shown, like with the red comet, that anything can have multiple but wrong/irrelevant explanations or interpretations for a completely normal but in-universe unexplainable phenomenon. I think it's similar with their magic, it just exists in this universe and some people can use it (for whatever reason) and they have ridiculous rituals surrounding it (religions, greenseer stuff,…) but it's just how we had alchemy in this world and stumbled around in the dark with tiny successes now and then before we developed chemistry and made useful progress.

In the same way everybody cares about this prophecy because it's an important part of the in-universe mythology and they build rituals around it (or used it to manipulate people and so the prophecy grew in power). My guess is that the ending will be conventional in that mankind survives but that's about it. Maybe someone's actions will map onto the prophecy and that person will be proclaimed as the 'Prince that was Promised' but that will be just coincidental.


Sure, Martin plays with levels of meaning throughout the books. Heck, people have been kicking around the meaning of the title of the series for years now. And there are plenty of valid theories, supported by the fact that Martin repeats ice and fire themes many times and in many ways. And then you have all the stories and text snippets that may or may not be full of meaning.
Spoiler:
There's good reason to think a simple story involving an inn sign is a strong hint that Aegon/Young Griff is a Blackfyre pretender.

But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

*Two years ago* Martin wrote this blog post explaining that the book and show storylines are diverging, and that the gap will continue to widen. But some of you think it all ends more or less the same? I don't see how, especially since Martin hasn't written HIS ending yet.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 18:39:17


Post by: Prestor Jon


 gorgon wrote:


But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.


Completely agree. This season has gotten pretty bad in terms of being predictable and formulaic. Every episode is just another pendulum swing, it's like a tennis volley between the "good" side and the "bad" side. Things are looking good for Dany's faction, she's building up a strong alliance to take out Cersei and the Lannisters' power and then the next episode Cersei outsmarts Dany, breaks up the alliance and regains the upper hand, then the next episode Dany strikes back with dragon power, wipes out a good chunk of the Lannister's army and puts Cersei back on the defensive. I'm sure this week's episode will end on a negative for Dany's team because last episode ended on a high note for them.

At least in the beginning of the series, even if you had read the books you got to watch events play out over multiple episodes instead of this simplistic formula. Everything just goes back and forth except the Night King keeps on advancing in a nigh unstoppable manner but he's moving incredibly slowly, especially compared to how now the main characters zip around Westeros every episode.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 20:31:36


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You know, if I were Tyrion, the first thing I would do is tell that Dothraki next to me to send a message to the queen that the guy who went into the water is very important and should be retrieved at all costs.
I'm sure having leverage over Cersei would be a good thing.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 20:45:46


Post by: Compel


That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 20:51:27


Post by: Mr Morden


Prestor Jon wrote:
 gorgon wrote:


But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.


Completely agree. This season has gotten pretty bad in terms of being predictable and formulaic. Every episode is just another pendulum swing, it's like a tennis volley between the "good" side and the "bad" side. Things are looking good for Dany's faction, she's building up a strong alliance to take out Cersei and the Lannisters' power and then the next episode Cersei outsmarts Dany, breaks up the alliance and regains the upper hand, then the next episode Dany strikes back with dragon power, wipes out a good chunk of the Lannister's army and puts Cersei back on the defensive. I'm sure this week's episode will end on a negative for Dany's team because last episode ended on a high note for them.

At least in the beginning of the series, even if you had read the books you got to watch events play out over multiple episodes instead of this simplistic formula. Everything just goes back and forth except the Night King keeps on advancing in a nigh unstoppable manner but he's moving incredibly slowly, especially compared to how now the main characters zip around Westeros every episode.


Actually this whole series has been loose loose for Dany and co - it had to be otherwise epsiode one would have been - arrive in Westors - destroy Lanisters, episode two head North - fight the undead.

Her only "victory" so far has been at the cost of injury to one of her "children" and we don't know how serious that is.

I think its actually quite well done - history and wars often go like this with fortunes changing dramatically without warnig - or if warnings are ignored.

Remeber alot of this is based on the Wars of the Roses - history is often much wierder that fiction in how things and why things happen.

It is the opposite to the books where nothing is happening and GRm is defiantly trying spin it out as long as possible probably because he is enjoying it and there is no one who can make him get on with it - the show runners don;t have that luxury - they need the plot to press on, they need it to be coherent and interestng and every new character is a wage that needs to be justified. You cant have endless travelougues with minor characters if it means highly paid actors are just sitting about,

The show did indulge GRm quite alot to be honest




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 21:14:16


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....


The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 21:22:13


Post by: LunarSol


I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 21:44:49


Post by: Mr Morden


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....


The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.


If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 21:50:01


Post by: Mario


gorgon wrote:Sure, Martin plays with levels of meaning throughout the books. Heck, people have been kicking around the meaning of the title of the series for years now. And there are plenty of valid theories, supported by the fact that Martin repeats ice and fire themes many times and in many ways. And then you have all the stories and text snippets that may or may not be full of meaning.
Spoiler:
There's good reason to think a simple story involving an inn sign is a strong hint that Aegon/Young Griff is a Blackfyre pretender.

But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

*Two years ago* Martin wrote this blog post explaining that the book and show storylines are diverging, and that the gap will continue to widen. But some of you think it all ends more or less the same? I don't see how, especially since Martin hasn't written HIS ending yet.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html
I think the show will end similar (he already told them roughly how it's supposed to end before the first season started) but the way there will be simpler, less detailed, and adjusted to whatever happens in the TV series while the books are not progressing (for us readers). As the show moved forward they had to cut content all the time (but they also included nice additional material to explore things that the reader got by being able to read about a character's thoughts) because GRRM included so many characters who are somehow involved (even if only on the periphery) while they had to streamline it to a degree just to keep in manageable for a TV audience.

If I remember correctly the "diverging storyline" blogpost came around the time it became clear that the TV writers won't have books to orient themselves on anymore. He's probably told them roughly what his plans are so they can work with that but it won't have the detailed quotes/scenes/plans of the early adaption and they are cutting things apart as needed for a functioning TV series (that can't reference existing books anymore). It will probably be more conventional than the books but should hopefully still end as a good show. I don't care much one way or another as long as the show it at least interesting to watch. If they diverge too much then I get two different experiences and I don't see this as a bad option (unlike some people who want the adaption to be as pure and direct as possible). HBO is apparently exploring the possibility of four spinoffs. Even if those don't end up being great they should still manage to be good and above average and that could mean a nice decade of GOT shows.

BTW, got a link/explanation about the stuff in the spoiler? It reminds me of some theory I think I read about but I can't remember it.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 21:53:47


Post by: jhe90


 LunarSol wrote:
I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.


I'd imagine it's a very hard one to choose a ending for.
There's no good side. Only shades of grey, and blood on everyone's hands.



Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 22:03:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Mr Morden wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....


The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.


If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.


idk, it doesn't seem that hard to build. If they could afford to send one to escort the food convoy, they probably have a few more.
I'm not saying they would have hundreds of them. I would think that all they need is 20 to give them a hard time. If just one can ground the largest dragon just by hitting a non vital spot, 20 would have a greater chance of hitting a vital, and even then it just needs one hit to take away its air superiority. At which point you can throw big rocks at it.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 22:18:56


Post by: jhe90


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Compel wrote:
That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....


The context is different.
Cersei wasn't in charge, King's Landing wasn't in ruins, and Jaime wasn't only the Lannister left.
I think there are only about 3 Lannisters of note left, and one of them is a traitor.

Its very much possible to make Cersei the offer of giving her back Jaime in exchange for the crown.
Whether or not she will accept that offer is another story (or Danny keeping her end of the bargain for that matter), but it's still a viable option.

The scorpion did actually prove itself to be a threat; whilst it didn't kill the dragon, it did wound it enough to be grounded, and in greater numbers there's a good chance of hitting something vital.
Its actually a good thing that Tyrion and Jon talked Danny out of burning kings landing, otherwise she'd have flown straight into an AA ballista battery. Maybe she will see that now.


If Dany had flown straight in with her Dragons and army as soon as she arrived in Westros - they would not have had time to build the AA battery - but then the show would not have needed two more seasons.

Jamie would be a great bargaining chip - what else does Cersei have left in her life - of course take him away and she just has vengeance and its pretty much certain she has the whole city mined with more napalm.


idk, it doesn't seem that hard to build. If they could afford to send one to escort the food convoy, they probably have a few more.
I'm not saying they would have hundreds of them. I would think that all they need is 20 to give them a hard time. If just one can ground the largest dragon just by hitting a non vital spot, 20 would have a greater chance of hitting a vital, and even then it just needs one hit to take away its air superiority. At which point you can throw big rocks at it.


True. You can deny dragon air strikes from flaming half your castle. But there also well Dragons.

Ideal for protecting key targets but those dragons could easily reach and attacker her lesser protected sites and convoys. Raid the weaker vessel keeps and make her running of a kingdom and gathering food for winter very hard.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 22:31:19


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/11 22:40:48


Post by: jhe90


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.


I think they did have them at blackwater but I think the anti dragon design is more heavy duty.

Its a anti tank gun of a crossbow with double arms.

Maybe qyburn is playing polical games and only just revealing his weapon. Or no one quite believed her dragons where real?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/12 10:28:32


Post by: Mr Morden


 jhe90 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Speaking of scorpions, shouldn't they have started construction sooner? I mean, they knew Danny was coming. Did Qybern really think, just as she landed "oh right, need to build something that counters dragons"

Then again, evidently blacksmiths need to be told how to make armor winter proof, so I guess Westorosi are really bad at military engineering.

Didn't they show ballista at the battle of blackwater? This scorpion thing really doesn't make sense as a plot point, really.


I think they did have them at blackwater but I think the anti dragon design is more heavy duty.

Its a anti tank gun of a crossbow with double arms.

Maybe qyburn is playing polical games and only just revealing his weapon. Or no one quite believed her dragons where real?


Also its on a pivoting mount so it can be fired in many directions - which I would think is not a simple bit of engineering in the quasi medieval period but I don't know. Technology seems to have remained the same for hundreds (thousands?) of years - as is the case with many fantasy worlds so ballisti were also likely around in the time of the first Targyrian invasion.

However hitting a moving dragon - which is also trying to breathe fire on you is not going to be an easy task.

We know that Qyburn only showed it to Cersei post Dany's arrival so if she had struck immediately there would have been no resistance apart from soldiers to turn to ash. However many rulers have made similar mistakes in history = plus the show needed Dany to not win immediately so the prevarication and anti -dragon artillery is purely there to spin out the plot.

Also Cersei and co were quite busy with their own problems (killing half the nobles the kingdom and destroying the Church's power) and likely last they heard Dany's city was a hive of rebellion and under siege with her Dragons nowhere to be seen.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/12 16:37:44


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 LunarSol wrote:
I suspect GRRM just doesn't know how to end it at this point. Not that he doesn't know the events of the conclusion, but how to organically set up the ending. He might even think the ending he dreamt up 20 years ago is as great as he probably did when it all started.

A good example of this is the real problem with books 4-5. He had originally just planned to jump ahead and start fresh with characters in the places they wound up towards the ends of those stories. He didn't like the amount of exposition that inserted and decided to just write out the time skip, but the how of where the characters go is less exciting than where they end up.

I suspect the end has similar issues. He knows where he wants everyone and what part they play, but the actual work of getting them to those places organically is a lot harder to do.


Personally, I suspect that GRRM has the last book written, but is saving it to release posthumously. Things will end so horribly that he is a little worried about angry fans going medieval l on him, and recreating a choice death scene or two from the books.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 02:49:05


Post by: d-usa


This is setting things up nicely.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 02:57:48


Post by: Ouze


 d-usa wrote:
This is setting things up nicely.


#squadgoals


good episode.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 03:17:56


Post by: yakface


Gendry!

And he has a warhammer!

Love the ultimate squad of badassery.

Also, Jon Snow isn't a bastard! That makes him the true heir to the iron throne, no? That's gonna get awkward.




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 04:03:36


Post by: d-usa


From the book, and also implied in the show I think:

Spoiler:
His trueborn status was long suspected there. Ned fought Kingsguard to get to his sister, even though "no" Targarian family member was at the tower anymore and it was just his sister. Kingsguard wouldn't be pulling duty as prison guards to keep her locked up, they wouldn't abandon the Targarian prince to guard his girlfriend, and they wouldn't be guarding a bastard. Their presence implied that there was a legitimate member of the royal family that needed to be guarded.


I liked the episode.

Danny is right on the edge of madness, at least in the way she is perceived. It will be interesting to see how they handle that. And with Cersei going more cray cray every episode it sets up a nice dilemma for people there.

John "the dragon" Snow is being setup pretty nicely as a dragon rider I think. How many people have touched the dragons? Maybe they can sniff out his herritage.

I hope Arya is playing Littlefinger, his smirk needs to go.

Looking forward to watching the Westeros Edition of Suicide Squat next week. I know it will be sad to see Hodor again though. What's the over/under of one of the dragons bailing them out?

Speaking of which: I feel that the whole "Song of Ice and Fire" really isn't about John and Danny anymore, especially with the whole hamfisted "I brought ice and fire together" line a couple episodes ago. Throwing that in our faces pretty much guarantees that it's not the case. It would fit the story much better if it's always been about the children of the Forrest and the Others, and mythical fire and ice creatures, and a truce between them that is now failing. And the humans are just inconsequential pawns in all of that who don't really matter.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 07:28:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


All escalating nicely I feel.

Perhaps when I get the chance to binge the whole season it'll feel like they wasted a bit of time. But, given we've two episodes left before the final season, I'm certainly not feeling that way right now.

Also.....Simon Quinlank, hit in the side of the head with a hammer.....


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 13:17:53


Post by: Necros


I liked the warhammer. For some reason I forgot and always thought that guy was Briene's squire.

Isn't the next episode the last for the season? I thought it was 6 this year and 7 next year?

I don't think Jamie is gonna be the one to kill Cersi now. Someone else will have to do it for him, maybe Bronn will. Also had a theory, if the white walkers make it to king's landing, since the Mountain is kinda undead too maybe they would be able to control him and he'll turn around and crush her head?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 14:37:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Two more to go.

And I'll be off LARPing when it airs.

Me, in a tent, in full armour, drunk on Mead, after timeout, with my iPad, watching Game of Thrones?



Are they mad?


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 14:44:54


Post by: djones520


 Necros wrote:
I liked the warhammer. For some reason I forgot and always thought that guy was Briene's squire.

Isn't the next episode the last for the season? I thought it was 6 this year and 7 next year?

I don't think Jamie is gonna be the one to kill Cersi now. Someone else will have to do it for him, maybe Bronn will. Also had a theory, if the white walkers make it to king's landing, since the Mountain is kinda undead too maybe they would be able to control him and he'll turn around and crush her head?


Nah, after the whole "Never betray me again" thing, something snapped in him. Jaime is going to be the one who kills her.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 15:33:48


Post by: LunarSol


Cersi will ally with Jon and Dany to stop the White Walkers but ultimately jeopardize everything when she sees the opportunity to take out her rivals. Jamie will almost certainly have to kill her to keep her from getting everyone killed by the Night King.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 16:32:59


Post by: sebster


I thought this episode started on a weak point, with Jaime and Bronn just swimming up and away from the world's steepest river bank. That whole 'will Jaime drown thing' was needless, it didn't work as a cliffhanger because we all knew that he wasn't going to die there, and so that only left a question of what clever plot element was used for his escape. None. There was no clever plot element. He just got dragged down river by Bronn.

Other than that the episode was really solid. Lots of good lines. Lord Tarly got what was overdue. Davos in fine form doing what he does best. It got Gendry back in the story, and Jon getting his gang of b-listers together at the end was awesome. It won't last long and I reckon they'll bump off at least a couple of them, shame it'll probably be Beric and Tormund, because they're two of my favourites.

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though

Mostly though I really like how the episode quickly moved to accepting Cersei can't win a conventional war. It would have been tempting to leave some suspense there, show batteries of scorpions or the Gold Company arriving with some other anti-dragon weapon of their own, or something like that. Instead they show Jaime quickly assessing the situation, which shows he's not an idiot and he understands overwhelming power, but mostly it focuses the story and moves it towards its next drama point. It's like the opposite of the 'will Jaime drown' faux cliffhanger.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 17:02:28


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Also.....Simon Quinlank, hit in the side of the head with a hammer.....


This weeks hobby is called 'getting smashed in the skull by a royal bastard'

Didn't even have time to drink his weak lemon drink


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 17:56:04


Post by: gorgon


Bronn only had to swim down how many feet, stop jaime's descent and then swim however far to shore, with both of them in battle armor. That's a layup for Bronn the almighty.

Edit: I'm surprised he didn't do it while singing. Underwater.

You gotta think it's going to be an awkward conversation when Jon introduces Sam to his new girlfriend, who roasted his family alive. Sam was estranged from his dad, but still...


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 18:08:42


Post by: nels1031


 sebster wrote:

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though


Unless the kid brings it with him and someone stumbles upon it, like Davos did when the call went out for reinforcements needed at the wall.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 18:31:56


Post by: LunarSol


 gorgon wrote:
Bronn only had to swim down how many feet, stop jaime's descent and then swim however far to shore, with both of them in battle armor. That's a layup for Bronn the almighty.

Edit: I'm surprised he didn't do it while singing. Underwater.

You gotta think it's going to be an awkward conversation when Jon introduces Sam to his new girlfriend, who roasted his family alive. Sam was estranged from his dad, but still...


There's estranged and then there's "I gave you the option to go die in the snow or I'd shoot you myself and you failed to do either". I think Sam can let it go.

Ultimately Jamie drowning was mostly just artistic license to nod back to the shot of Bran's fall. I don't think we were really supposed to take it seriously as a cliffhanger as much as a way of letting the audience know that Jamie lost that one.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 18:42:24


Post by: d-usa


 nels1031 wrote:
 sebster wrote:

Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though


Unless the kid brings it with him and someone stumbles upon it, like Davos did when the call went out for reinforcements needed at the wall.


Sister might have also written a letter to brother about getting married and being pregnant, a letter that may be in Winterfell, with only one copy existing.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 20:04:20


Post by: jhe90


Rowing man is back!

And he grew alot doing it.
Plus a rather effective hammer.

So Jorah, the Explorer. John snow.
Who will win the Queens heart!




Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 20:18:42


Post by: welshhoppo


 jhe90 wrote:
Rowing man is back!

And he grew alot doing it.
Plus a rather effective hammer.

So Jorah, the Explorer. John snow.
Who will win the Queens heart!





House Gendry, Rowing Strong.


Winter is here : GoT season 7 @ 2017/08/14 20:23:54


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.