So what is everyone's thoughts on the new Renegades and Heretics? I've gotten a few thoughts at first glance:
Cons:
1: We seem to be just Guard without orders, but with a covenant for all infantry. Not sure how I feel about that.
2: I'm a little bummed out that they lost the ability to really specialize the army depending on who was leading it.
3: Seems like we lost one of the things about R+H that I really liked: You start worse than guard, but can upgrade yourself to simi-guard level. This meant you could leave hellhounds at BS2, and have a cheaper tank, and things like that.
Pros:
1: We seem to be a lot stronger on the psychic front. With squads looking like they can do D6 smites easily.
2: Covenants are now free!* We can only have one army wide, but free is still good.
3: Ability to ally in Chaos forces instead of just more Imperium. (More of a fluffy pro, but still a pro in my book)
So, all that said, what do you guys think of the new Renegades and how to use them on the battlefield?
*Covenant comes as a bundle package with Renegade Commander warlord. Side effects include, death, dismemberment, your soul being sucked out of your body or results may vary.
Renegades are a way for a more general Chaos army to get cheap HQ's and lascannons. Malefic Lords are crazy good but I don't think there's enough value in the R&H list to make an army that's mostly Renegades.
DoomMouse wrote: How are the infantry squads shaping up? Is there an easy way to get them easy morale protection? Those sigils were great last edition.
Captyn_Bob is right, I think Enforcers are key to keeping all your guys from running away. The sigils, while still nice, aren't in any way as good as they were last edition. But that kind of makes sense, considering there is only one morale test per turn, and being able to ignore that one test/turn would be all kinds of broken.
Now, the more I think of it, the one thing we do have over guard is the ability to put a lot of boots on the ground with a lot of special/heavy weapons in relatively few drops. Guard players have to make it one drop for every 10 guys. Of course, they could just spam conscripts, but they don't have access to special/heavy weapons. We can fill ours up with cheap weapons to just throw even more dice at the enemy. Grenade launchers (frag), and heavy bolters come to mind. If we gave the army covenant of tzeench, they overwatch just as well as they shoot, and that would be a LOT of overwatch.
On the subject of covenants:
Khorne and Slanesh: They seem to be all about close combat. Khorne is all about that extra strength when you charge, and slanesh seems to be all about getting into the charge in the first place (maybe made with footslogging in mind?)
Nurgle: A 6++ when shot at by S4 or worse? I don't know... Most things that are S4 or worse don't really have any AP anyways. So that seems to be a bit of a wash.
Tzeench: Overwatch on 5s seems great if you're going full on infantry gunline. Especially now that we can overwatch as much as we want until we are locked in combat.
What does everyone else think about the covenants?
Wow I didn't realize you could do that heavy weapon spam in the 20 man infantry squads, that fixes a lot of issues I was having with my World Eaters. My main issue was getting my enemy to over extend before slamming down my Assault Claw full of zerkers into their flank. With safe heavy weapons I can plink away at them for several turns and whittle down their defenses before the deep strikers strike. Not only that, but a few Malefic Lords behind the front lines but close enough to heroic intervention could make an amazing anti-assault force. All this and a bag of chips for 1/4 of your 2K points, sign me the feth up!
OR HELL take 20 dudes with 2 lascannons and 2-4 flamers at the front of the unit, anti-armor and anti-infantry. Your opponent will be forced to clear the unit.
Palleus wrote: Now, the more I think of it, the one thing we do have over guard is the ability to put a lot of boots on the ground with a lot of special/heavy weapons in relatively few drops. Guard players have to make it one drop for every 10 guys. Of course, they could just spam conscripts, but they don't have access to special/heavy weapons. We can fill ours up with cheap weapons to just throw even more dice at the enemy. Grenade launchers (frag), and heavy bolters come to mind. If we gave the army covenant of tzeench, they overwatch just as well as they shoot, and that would be a LOT of overwatch.
This is the first positive thing I heard said about Renegades and Heretics. The Tzeentch covenant makes them the ultimate anti-assault army.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Remember they are hitting on 5s tho. Will have to run the numbers but command squads and disciples might be more efficient.
More efficient? Probably. But the Militia blobs will be able to protect their special/heavy weapons from death a lot more often. Wither that comes from enemy fire, or an enforcer "encouraging" the squad via bullets in the head. Losing d3 guys out of an originally 5-10 man squad risks killing the important guys a lot more than losing d3 guys out of an originally 20 man squad.
Now if we want to talk about efficiency as far as special weapons go, I think our solution is Marauders: These guys can take 2 special weapons in a squad of 5 guys (3 if you count a Chief's plasma pistol as a special weapon), they hit on 3+s, you can fit two squads in a transport (meaning 4-6 special weapons per transport), and they can get 4+ saves and krack grenades, or -1 to hitting them and +2 to cover for FREE as a bonus. These guys seem to be well worth their cheap points cost.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So we've had the FAQ.. everything is now working more or less as intended .. any more thoughts on R&H?
They didn't fix covenant of Nurgle, which is frustrating, but everything else looks OK. Things are characters which should be characters.
Some new units available (medusa, earthshaker, macharius) are these any good?
Considering using a valkyrie to assault with Ogryns. Is this viable?
The Macharius give us superheavy options that are a lot cheaper than a baneblade. Personally I have a vanilla Macharius and a vanquisher, but am considering a vulcan as well.
So three units of Ogryns means a renegade commander, loaded into three valkyries, comes to about 1000 pts.
They have the movement for a first turn charge at 29" movement. And will only need a 3 on the roll. They can charge to the other side of board if they risk taking casualties.
4 attacks each on the charge, plus more with a small risk from stimms.
Strength 6, (7on the charge with khorne) 2 dam, hitting on 3s.
Ogryn power drills are amazing as well.
Units have to disembark before the transport moves, so no first turn charge out of valkaries. You have to fly them upfield on turn 1, and then get out and charge on turn 2.
McGibs wrote: Units have to disembark before the transport moves, so no first turn charge out of valkaries. You have to fly them upfield on turn 1, and then get out and charge on turn 2.
Are marauders prefered over disciples just for access to snipers? I'd have thought going for the 3+ heavy weapons would have been more appealing?
I'm thinking of mixing 2 or 3 ten man Disciple groups with some khorne Berserkers. Are 6 points for 10 geq bodies worth it? Maybe I should change that to 2 or 3 units of ten cultists and use the points for more heavy vehicles..
doc1234 wrote: Are marauders prefered over disciples just for access to snipers? I'd have thought going for the 3+ heavy weapons would have been more appealing?
I'm thinking of mixing 2 or 3 ten man Disciple groups with some khorne Berserkers. Are 6 points for 10 geq bodies worth it? Maybe I should change that to 2 or 3 units of ten cultists and use the points for more heavy vehicles..
What do you want them to do? You have Berzerkers that's fine, those are great for anti infantry and anti single large models, but the only thing that compliments them is anti-armor. You aren't taking cultists for anti-armor, and Disciple's aren't really going to be doing much anti-armor. If you just want a shield you should take Mutant Rabble, if you want heavy weapons take Havocs, if you want armored heavy weapons take tanks. I don't really see a use for Disciples at the moment.
Marauder's are an amazing sniper unit with the Stalkers special rules, but they're also just an amazing backfield secure unit due to the rule as well. It will be difficult to completely shoot them out of cover without using more guns than your opponent wants to use, and the Marauders can charge out of the cover to some effect. I'm thinking if someone drops in behind you to take an objective they are sitting on then you survive the gunfire and then special weapon or shotgun them to death. Against as assault squad dropping in you may surprise your opponent with out resilient they are. They are not like Disciples who will most likely be in larger units and scraping with the enemy.
A bit disappointed in lack of 5+ armour or militia training on troops options. I enjoyed my army as renegade guard, not untrained rabble, and it seems that option has been taken away (troops-wise anyway, which I place a lot of import on).
Yeah the marauders have some advantages over disciples. the cover bonus is great an they also are less vulnerable to morale.
Yes they can all vanish in one bad roll, but that's what rerolls are for.
More than anything its that pre-8th I bought up a IG starter, and a box or two of other bits to do as a painting project for traitor guard (had a soft spot for them for ever but not something i'd gotten round to).
My group and I are super casual, using power levels with more of a a self imposed I guess? restriction in trying to make our various lists for things themed or fluffy. R&H is leaving me a bit lost in terms of gettting it looking nice but avoiding a list that'll get destroyed every time, while still using the models i'v got.
What about something like this?
Spoiler:
-Malefic Lord (modelled as a possessed, no dirty psykers here by khorne )
-Four units of x5 Marauders
--Stalker, Lasguns, and maybe some kind of mix of one with dual snipers, one with plasma, a group with meltas and...maybe a fourth plasma group?
-Renegade Ogryns
--2xOgryn Brutes, 1x Brute Boss
-Scout Sentinalsx3
--All three with lascannons
-Basilisk
-Russ Battle tank
-Chaos Juggerlord (or possibly a termilord? Or some kind of lord anyway.)
-Zerkersx10
-Chaos Landraider for the zerkers
-Maulerfiend
Would put me around 94pl. Possibly use the 6 points spare on more marauders maybe or something similar? With the Chaos Lord as Warlord (doing a commander for the covenant is probably better, but honestly what kind of chaos lord would follow a squishy humans orders?) It's a shame the commander and enforcers seem so useless outside of their two niche jobs.
I recently discovered this army after knowing of them throughout all of 8th, and have fallen in love with the notion of 6~ or so 30Man blobs of cultists with enforcers, backed by many, many Malefic lords.
Anyone having any success with this army so far? Any tips? This thread is quite bare, but I genuinely think there's some real potential within renegades.
I'm currently enrolled in an Escalation League with a Renegade & Heretic army. Entry is at 250pts, so I have a Renegade Commander (Tzeentch Covenant), a 15 Militia squad, and 2 Earthshakers. For this level of gaming, I don't see too many things that can't be handled. I'll be grabbing many Renegade Heavy Weapon Teams with Mortars next month when we push to 500. I think they are crazy good at 8pts per base. Should shore up my anti-infantry with the Earthshaker's handling Vehicles/Monsters/Elite infantry. Goal is to grab more infantry with Enforcers to keep bubble-wrapping my artillery as the league goes on.
Heavy weapon spam is absolutely an option for them!
For me it's been using about 14 Malefic Lords and maximizing the ability to smite, and having the ability to summon loads of Daemons (Turn one I can summon the Changeling and enough horrors to convince you I'm actually playing a Daemon army.).
On paper, it offers me all the utility of my current Tzeentch list but with even more psychic power.
Would you guys run a more melee-focused Renegade army or ranged focused army?
Melee:
-Sweet benefits from Convenant of Khorne or Slaanesh.
-Rogue Psyker Covern can pull of Unnatural Vigor quite reliably.
-All troops choices can take pistol + 'chainsword'. Mutants have 1/3rd chance of getting it on top of regular guns.
-Banner of Hate let's you deal out one attack if a model dies.
-Chaos Spawn are an extremely cheap fast attack, letting you get a Brigade detachment. Also not too shabby in melee combat and can combo a -1 LD with the -D3 LD psychic power.
ranged:
-Nice benefits from Covenant of Tzeench, unless you are facing another shooty army.
While the troops kind of suck at shooting imo, the elite options are great.
-Disciple squads can come in small numbers, letting you spam out BS 3+ heavy/special weapons teams. You can either get more teams or add any number of extra bodies to them.
-Maurauders can work great as small special weapons teams.Either with -1 to hit and +1 cover save, hopping from cover to cover and taking out key targets. Or with +1 armour save and Krak Grenades (a free weapon for the sergeant to use). You can also stick two squads in a Chimera.
Not sure what everyone's fuzz is about using them as snipers though. Too high of a tax for the two extra bodies + the sergeant.
-Not to sure about Heavy Weapons Squads..... sure it's 3 point base, but BS 5+ means you REALLY need to spam a lot of them. Maybe just taking more Disciple squads and adding a heavy weapon to those might be better.
Also question: Can you tel me which units benefit from the Convenant bonus? (I don't have the actual Index, I use Battlescribe which has 99% of the rules in it)
I certainly think the Marauders with Sniper Rifles can get some work done, though I haven't tried it yet. I also very much like the idea of a crapload of Malefic Lords spamming Smite or summoning some demons.
- I have to agree when it comes to the HWT - It's gotta be Mortars or bust. Being fragile and having crap BS, you pretty much have to spam them and they have a great number of shots for the points, in addition to not needing LOS.
- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.
- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.
- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.
So... play Imperial Guard?
Several reasons why not for me: 1.) I like the aesthetic of my R&H models. 2.) Easy to work in with my Iron Warrior stuff in terms of keywords. 3.) I'd rather not be the guy playing an obviously Chaos force using Imperial rules when I feel like the rules for R&H aren't really worse, just different.
I'm trying to figure out what kind of blob I want as a mobile melee assault and am flip flopping between two-three units of CSM in Rhinos, 10 flesh hounds, and 25-50 mutant rabble. I have a feeling I'll be going with the marines, either base bois or havocs with close ranged special weapons.
Have been messing around with a 50PL list of World Eaters with Bloodpact.
Spoiler:
HQ Chaos Juggerlord 7
-Powerfist, Poweraxe
Elite
Marauders 8
-Stalkers, Melta, Flamer, Shotguns
Chimera 5
-2 Heavy Flamers
Marauders 8
-Stalkers, 2 Plasma
Zerkers 10
- 2 Plasma Pistols, Champion with Poweraxe+Fist, zerkers with axes, Banner
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinelsx3 6
-3 Lascannons
Heavy Attack
Basilisk 6
-Heavy Flamer, Earthshaker Cannon
Friend reccomended the 3 lascannons were a bit overkill for 50pl but I'm not convinced. Also I'm not 100% sure if the basilisk is fitting or not.
Also, I know the marauders are best in min squads but guards not in squads of 5 bugs me a little fluffwise but not as much as if it was disciples in 5 man groups so, might still change it round.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm trying to figure out what kind of blob I want as a mobile melee assault and am flip flopping between two-three units of CSM in Rhinos, 10 flesh hounds, and 25-50 mutant rabble. I have a feeling I'll be going with the marines, either base bois or havocs with close ranged special weapons.
What close range special weapons? The only melee weapon havocs can take is a chainsword. They can't take from the melee weapons list.
I've heard people say you should take Dark Apostles with the Renegades for their leadership bubble and re-roll to hit in close combat. But his auras only work on a keyword 'Legion'.
Are the Heretics and Renegades considered a keyword 'legion'?
And secondly, let me know what you think of my semi-competitive army list:
Brigade Detachment: 1500 points.
HQ: Renegade Commander; Convenant of Slaanesh.
Reason:The Commander is there just for the Convenant buff. Since we are going for a close-combat army, Slaanesh seems like a good choice to reliably get into combat turn 2.
2x Malific Lord; powers: Creeping Terror, Warp Flux. Reason: Very cheap and powerful psykers that are pretty much the poster-boy in terms of competitive-ness for R&H. Spamming these won't be fun though, so I'm trying out just two.
Rogue Psyker Covern; power: Unnatural Vigor Reason: These guys will be casting Unnatural Vigor turn two for that amazing close-combat buff for all the mutants. Just need to be careful not to hit the Enforcers or Malific Lords with it, while still trying to get all Mutant squads in range...
Troops: 6x 20 Mutant Rabble /w Shotguns Reason: I choose Mutant Rabble because they can potentially get +1 attack AND have a normal ranged weapon. Cultists and Militia have to choose between either a normal gun or a pistol + CCW.
Now there is the risk of rolling a 1 for mutations, but remember that the 'phase' before the battle begins technically isn't a 'turn phase'. This means that every mutation roll can be re-rolled with a command point. Of course, talk to your opponent if he is ok with this.
Elites: 2x Disciple Command Squad, Banner of Hate. Reason: These guys will help buff the close-combat powers of the Mutants, giving each model an attack when he dies.
2x Enforcer Reason: Just like Commissars for the Guard, these guys are manditory to keep the mutants in check, especially if they roll poorly on their Uncertain Worth roll.
Marauder Squad; 2x meltagun, Stalkers. Reason: This squad will be advancing in between the Mutants, moving from cover to cover in the hopes to get close to an enemy vehicle for the Meltas to blow them up.
Fast Attack: 3x Chaos Spawn Reason: These are incredibly cheap fast attack choices that aren't half-bad in melee. Since your opponent will no doubt be hosing down the Mutants, these guys have a pretty high chance of making it into combat.
They do not get the benefits from the Convenant aura and Unnatural Vigor, unfortunately.
Heavy Support: 3x Basilisk Reason: very reliable artillery pieces that also do not suffer the R&H BS 5+. This is the army's primary form of anti-tank.
2x Wyvern Reason: Reliable anti-infantry, not much else to say about it.
1x heavy weapons squad; 3 Lascannons Reason: While they suffer from having BS 5+, I feel the army needs a bit more anti-tank.
DA's can only buff Legion units, so only CSM of a specific legion. There's nothing in the R&H list that buffs, all you get are Enforcers shooting people in the head in lieu of morale and a Covenant if you make a Commander the Warlord. No actual buff bubbles, which is disappointing.
Demantiae wrote: DA's can only buff Legion units, so only CSM of a specific legion. There's nothing in the R&H list that buffs, all you get are Enforcers shooting people in the head in lieu of morale and a Covenant if you make a Commander the Warlord. No actual buff bubbles, which is disappointing.
I agree with disappointing ... but there is a little silver lining. We're virtually immune to Snipers since our HQ's are crap and if you go the route of Malefic Lords, you can spam them and still pretty much ignore Snipers. So, that's somewhat nice.
After a dozen or so games of 8th with my Renegades I have to say there is no reason I can see to keep playing them in any format.
If you want to run your Renegades models as a standalone-ish army competitively your best option is to switch over and run them as "Traitor" Guard. There isn't a single unit worth taking that Guard doesn't have a better version of, and access to commands alone blows every single Renegade special rule or small advantage (min Disc squads for 3+ Heavy Weapons for example) right out of the water. Not to mention access to all the Baneblade variants and random other vehicles that Renegades just don't get access to for some reason. And to top it all off WAY better morale control for blobs in the form of Commissars. Running them in a "unified" Chaos list...well you'd just find yourself slowly dropping Renegades units to free up points for superior CSM and Daemons ones.
As for open/narrative, unless Renegades get a Codex of their own (laughable) or the FW indices get HUGE reworks, there is absolutely no flavor reason to play them really, since they took out the specializations for the Renegade Commanders like Ordnance Tyrant, etc. they simply play as weaker, worse Guard with no fun fluffy rules. The Covenants range from yawnworthy to actually rage-inducing (the Nurgle one...what on earth were they thinking? COMPLETELY useless). And honestly if you are in a non-competitive, non-matched play setting ok it with your opponent and just run them with Guard rules and ally in Chaos anyway... Achieves the same end with strictly better rules...and fits the fluff pretty well in most cases.
I will concede that if you want to force the issue and play them regardless, taking a Spearhead for access to a couple Malefic Lords and some artillery might add a little more punch to a CSM or Daemons force...but Malefic Lords are really the only competitive unit in the whole Army List. Artillery is generally overcosted this edition, but it could add value to a Daemons list when they lack decent LOS ignoring firepower. I honestly wouldn't recommend it.
TL;DR - We got strapped with stinker rules and a poorly edited army list that makes Renegades almost completely unplayable for any reason (competitiveness, fluff, fun, etc)...and it is almost strictly better in any instance to play your Renegades models as turncoat Imperial Guard.
Sorry to be a bummer, but Renegades as they stand are bumming me out.
With the new CSM codex, my renegades are going back to being cultists.
They got cheaper, got legion traits, can be buffed my CSM characters and abilities, and the CSM stratagem to bring them back to life (which is the whole reason I started renegades in the first place).
McGibs wrote: With the new CSM codex, my renegades are going back to being cultists.
They got cheaper, got legion traits, can be buffed my CSM characters and abilities, and the CSM stratagem to bring them back to life (which is the whole reason I started renegades in the first place).
A sad sad state for FW R&H
Yep, tell me about it. I have had a Prospero box sitting around for almost a year that I planned to turn into Alpha Legion to "support" my Renegades (like in the fluff) but at this point I am just going to make AL my main army and run my guys as their cultists, as you say. I may bring in my artillery pieces in fun games, but probably not. Havocs that your opponent can barely hit seem better in most cases...and since for the next several months 8th will be "Marines: The Game" due to the codices they've slated for release seems like my overall best option if I don't want to get pooped on weekly.
Best use I see is adding IG tanks to chaos proper lists. I am fielding a Malefic lord, 2 bombards, and 2 medusas in my IW list. Including two marauder squads as snipers and anti-DS bubble. They live great, if not, they were only 34 points.
After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army.
My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable).
I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.
We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...
To finish I would like to just point a few examples:
- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly...
- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think?
- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option.
- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders.
- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies!
And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.
Have fun.
PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country.
Responded to your points inline. I appreciate your points and your optimism, but neither make Renegades any better than their poor rules.
Zmanzeta wrote: After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army. Bad, boring, and poorly written/edited rules...all three have conspired to make them nearly unplayable, even for fun. The fun part is opinion, the other stuff is demonstratively true. I will concede the point about wanting to play them like in 7th, but hey that's the models I have so you know, it's not bad to hope that the models you own will be remotely useful with the new edition's rules. Guess it's just bad luck for me there.
My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable). Let me be very clear here. I don't want to spam overpowered units. I want a variety of artillery, infantry bodies and other stuff that looks good and plays well on the battlefield. I want rules that aren't a complete joke and afterthought, and that are at least as competitive as some of the other rules we've seen in 8th. Renegades might just have the absolute worst army-wides in the game right now. I can't think of worse ones.
I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.
We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...
To finish I would like to just point a few examples:
- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly... If the best thing you can say about a unit is "they can spam flamers" and spam = 4...well I'm just not convinced. I can certainly think of better ways to spend 108 points even within the Renegades army list. For example a Chimera with dual heavy flamers is pretty close to strictly better in almost every case and has no morale issues. And it can transport my min squads of Plasma Marauders where they need to go! But if you are talking strictly warm bodies to soak up charges and fire I'd rather play my guys counts as Guard and get 25 conscripts supported by a Commissar for the points.
- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think? The investment of points in vox is debatable, especially if that CP you spend to reroll your 1s or 2s nets you another 1 or 2 and you are stuck knee deep in poop soup with LD4/5, but what isn't debatable is the fact that Commissars are just strictly better than Enforcers.
- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option. Yes access to some of these for Chaos lists is fine, might be fun to support your Daemons with a Baneblade, but Guard has access to everything which just makes them better if you aren't playing any other Chaos in your list. Either way limited access to Guard armor is not a reason to play Renegades or a true benefit in my opinion
- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders. Russes are pretty overcosted for their damage potential in this edition, it is also not a reason to play Renegades. I honestly wouldn't even take them in a Guard force but for tank commands, and as you mention we don't get those. Again, Guard wins out.
- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies! No sadly, it really isn't. The random leadership and poor morale control makes them lose out to Guard on both counts. The anemic special rules are not worth a thing compared to IG commands. And CHEAP? I mean, you must be joking. For strictly worse units we, at best, pay the same as Guard. Conscripts are even less than our supposed fodder unit. It isn't even close. Hell Orks even have us beat for a cheap fodder unit that might actually hit something due to effective BS3+ at 20+ models on Gretchin. If anything I think we are an MSU Marauder and Disciple army with maybe some artillery support. Drown the enemy in targets, not bodies has been my success route so far.
And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.
Have fun. All my comments above are not to shout you down, your optimism is totally admirable. I am just trying to show you that you don't need to try to polish a turd. Since you can effectively use the exact same models to represent almost everything, you lose nothing (power, fluff, fun, or rules) by running your Renegades as "Traitor" Guard, in fact you GAIN everything. Guard is strictly better in nearly every way, and until they get nerfed or we get a fair look and maybe a day's worth of quality control out of Forge World Renegades will sadly continue to not only be a poor choice for a competitive army, but not a particularly fun or fluffy choice either.
PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country. Your English is great, don't ever worry. Far better than my Spanish.
With GW's relatively quickly FAQ's and rebalancing with Codex releases, I think we stand to see a few of the horde armies gain .... well, at least some limitations. They've said themselves that hordes being strong was intentional - but I also think they're starting to realize that armies like R&H simply don't have the tools to compete toe-to-toe with the more pure-bred GW Horde armies. Here's hopes that FW will release another FAQ or the slim chance of a FW Codex for R&H. (There's also the even slimmer chance of R&H being featured in a GWIG Codex, but good luck on that one.)
exliontamer wrote: Responded to your points inline. I appreciate your points and your optimism, but neither make Renegades any better than their poor rules.
Zmanzeta wrote: After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army.
Bad, boring, and poorly written/edited rules...all three have conspired to make them nearly unplayable, even for fun. The fun part is opinion, the other stuff is demonstratively true. I will concede the point about wanting to play them like in 7th, but hey that's the models I have so you know, it's not bad to hope that the models you own will be remotely useful with the new edition's rules. Guess it's just bad luck for me there.
My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable).
Let me be very clear here. I don't want to spam overpowered units. I want a variety of artillery, infantry bodies and other stuff that looks good and plays well on the battlefield. I want rules that aren't a complete joke and afterthought, and that are at least as competitive as some of the other rules we've seen in 8th. Renegades might just have the absolute worst army-wides in the game right now. I can't think of worse ones.
I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.
We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...
To finish I would like to just point a few examples:
- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly...
If the best thing you can say about a unit is "they can spam flamers" and spam = 4...well I'm just not convinced. I can certainly think of better ways to spend 108 points even within the Renegades army list. For example a Chimera with dual heavy flamers is pretty close to strictly better in almost every case and has no morale issues. And it can transport my min squads of Plasma Marauders where they need to go! But if you are talking strictly warm bodies to soak up charges and fire I'd rather play my guys counts as Guard and get 25 conscripts supported by a Commissar for the points.
- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think?
The investment of points in vox is debatable, especially if that CP you spend to reroll your 1s or 2s nets you another 1 or 2 and you are stuck knee deep in poop soup with LD4/5, but what isn't debatable is the fact that Commissars are just strictly better than Enforcers.
- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option.
Yes access to some of these for Chaos lists is fine, might be fun to support your Daemons with a Baneblade, but Guard has access to everything which just makes them better if you aren't playing any other Chaos in your list. Either way limited access to Guard armor is not a reason to play Renegades or a true benefit in my opinion
- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders.
Russes are pretty overcosted for their damage potential in this edition, it is also not a reason to play Renegades. I honestly wouldn't even take them in a Guard force but for tank commands, and as you mention we don't get those. Again, Guard wins out.
- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies!
No sadly, it really isn't. The random leadership and poor morale control makes them lose out to Guard on both counts. The anemic special rules are not worth a thing compared to IG commands. And CHEAP? I mean, you must be joking. For strictly worse units we, at best, pay the same as Guard. Conscripts are even less than our supposed fodder unit. It isn't even close. Hell Orks even have us beat for a cheap fodder unit that might actually hit something due to effective BS3+ at 20+ models on Gretchin. If anything I think we are an MSU Marauder and Disciple army with maybe some artillery support. Drown the enemy in targets, not bodies has been my success route so far.
And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.
Have fun.
All my comments above are not to shout you down, your optimism is totally admirable. I am just trying to show you that you don't need to try to polish a turd. Since you can effectively use the exact same models to represent almost everything, you lose nothing (power, fluff, fun, or rules) by running your Renegades as "Traitor" Guard, in fact you GAIN everything. Guard is strictly better in nearly every way, and until they get nerfed or we get a fair look and maybe a day's worth of quality control out of Forge World Renegades will sadly continue to not only be a poor choice for a competitive army, but not a particularly fun or fluffy choice either.
PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country.
Your English is great, don't ever worry. Far better than my Spanish.
Yeah, probably it's just that I'm too much optimistic, I agree with you.
I agree too that conscripts are basically same as renegade militia but if I remember right (due I don't have a Imperium 2 copy in front of me right now), they don't have access to any special weapon or heavy weapon, so for me, they are worst due this.
Probably my point of view is heavily influenced due in my GW local store, we don't play tournament's list so it's much more softer. This army is unmerciful when you play with it, but I think you can still have a good winning ratio with it.
While I wish R&H was more powerful, Zmazela's comments ring true.
The one R&H player I know is doing exactly this, spamming flamers and Leman Russ tanks. He has games where he loses 20% of his troops just to morale effects, but it's hard to take all his armor off the board.
That said, these are not great options, just good ones. They keep him from being tabled and there's little of the flavor of last edition.
Yeah, probably it's just that I'm too much optimistic, I agree with you.
I agree too that conscripts are basically same as renegade militia but if I remember right (due I don't have a Imperium 2 copy in front of me right now), they don't have access to any special weapon or heavy weapon, so for me, they are worst due this.
Probably my point of view is heavily influenced due in my GW local store, we don't play tournament's list so it's much more softer. This army is unmerciful when you play with it, but I think you can still have a good winning ratio with it.
I think we just disagree on what constitutes a good speedbump...or what we are using expendable units for. Conscripts being 3pts a piece and having an upward model count of 50 is their value to me, not what wargear they can take (which you are correct, is none). I wouldn't ever run a 20 man militia squad with flamers because those points are just being thrown away on a unit that's only value is tying up other units in CC until it dies/collapses to morale. Better to spend the 80 pts with no upgrades as the flamers will get average one shot per game, because either the opponent will stay out of 8" range or you will get into 8" once and then charge or be charged (okay two in this instance due to OW, unless they charge from 9" away haha). I would always rather take special weapons on min Marauder squads who have 3+ to hit (so plasma, melta is good here, not so much flamers) and can take the ability to have a -1 to be hit and +2 to their saves in cover. That is huge for objective camping as they are basically a Marine Tac Squad when in cover, for 44ish points! (Sure less Toughness, but the -1 to be hit is better in most cases than an extra point of T)
This is all before even mentioning that the variable morale, worse WS/BS and 6+ save makes Militia strictly worse than Guard Infantry FOR THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS. There is no way to shine that up, that is just FW not communicating with GW about what the basis for points valuation is in this edition.
You are correct that point of view is most certainly affected by opponents. I have been playing the army, changing lists, trying different configurations for weeks and the only truth I have found is that player skill wins the day. If you are against a poor player you can certainly win with this army, as always, but against a better player you have zero chance to win as both their list (unless they are also playing Renegades) and/or play will be better than yours. Against a similarly skilled player you are at a major disadvantage and rely heavily on dice rolls in your favor and against theirs, which is no way to be. So yes you can win games with them, I am not arguing you can't, but why put yourself through the unpleasantness of having a bad army list when you can just run them as Guard and call it a day.
While I wish R&H was more powerful, Zmazela's comments ring true.
The one R&H player I know is doing exactly this, spamming flamers and Leman Russ tanks. He has games where he loses 20% of his troops just to morale effects, but it's hard to take all his armor off the board.
That said, these are not great options, just good ones. They keep him from being tabled and there's little of the flavor of last edition.
Yeah I mean, hey, if you want to keep playing Renegades with their poor rules be my guest. I am only trying to point out our situation and propose a (hopefully short-term) solution here. I still can't see a single thing you gain from running the Renegades rules though, other than a sense of moral superiority that you get from having won games with a sub-standard army list. Two additional flamers on an already inferior infantry squad? Tanks that are worse than the two other armies (Guard/GSC) that get to field them because of zero access to command re-rolls? None of this is convincing me.
Again, sorry to be such a bummer here but this is the sorry state of this army at the moment. I certainly hope that it changes in the future. And again, I'm not saying that we need to be OP or cleaning up the top tables at tournaments, I am simply saying I want our units to be fairly costed for what they are, and I want armywide special rules that aren't completely useless (Covenants) or major downsides for no reason (Uncertain Worth). Let's remember that the reason Uncertain Worth was even a thing in 7th was that our units were almost all inferior (mostly BS-wise) and were costed as such. In fact UW was much better because the min roll you could get was 5, not the abysmal 3 that it is now! We seem to have been saddled with the same or worse inferior stats on many of our units, but end up paying the same points for them that Guard do for better stats. The one exception is the Heavy Weapons Squad which is almost certainly a typo...something the IA:AM book has WAYYY too many of for something that was professionally produced by a gaming company.
So yeah, starting at the end of my current league I will be running my models as counts-as Traitor Guard and see what I can come up with there. Or perhaps I will finally paint up my Prospero box as Alpha Legion and have my models support as cultists, with maybe some armor/artillery to back them up. That sort of fits the story of Siege of Vraks...except reversed
Like I said, I have good winning ratio with this army and my oponents are great players, so I don't think this army is THAT bad. Just harder to use and with less options than other armies, that's all.
I really agree with you that renegade militia is overcosted and should cost the same as conscripts IMHO, but that doesn't means it's useless. Saying that, it's true that disciples and marauder squads are the best of this army, but in my case, I prefer quantity over quality. I prefer to send 20 renegade miltia to do the job than send a chimera and it works for me.
I'm not here to convince you to play an army you dislike, so if you like to play them as traitor guard and your oponents don't complain about it (many people likes to argue about anything...),then go for it!
In my case, I don't dislike R&H's set of rules but I agree with you that many points need to be reworked again my FW, but I just play that to have fun and right now this is what I have, so, it's a win-win.
I know this is a bit of a resurrection of the thread, but it's also the most recent Renegades thread on here so it seemed best to keep things in one place!
Has anyone found any ways of making a renegades detachment worthwhile?
I ask because I was considering adding a detachment of renegades as my 'troops' in a chaos mechanicum army, instead of just plain cultists. Malefic Lords seemed like a nice little boost, and would add psykers which I'm short on.
Reading through this thread though, the people who are saying Renegades are useless and terrible are also saying to take Traitor guard instead... but unless I'm missing something, you can't actually take traitor guard.
I mean I guess you can in narrative games, or in general games where you're making up your own rules.
Traitor Guard are just Guard painted to look chaos-y. Or literally Renegade models using the Guard rules. That's all. Purely cosmetic. Of course you can't ally in anything else Chaos at that point...but at least you can play pure Renegades and not feel like poop. Or hell, ally in some "Heretic" Imperial units...whatever works.
As things stand the best "support" Renegades can offer is a Supreme Command Detachment full of Malefic Lords and a Baneblade. Can't see why you would want any of the Renegades troop options over Cultists...especially now that the CSM codex is out. Tide of Traitors alone makes Cultists superior. Alpha Legion cultists are great objective holders. Take a Dark Apostle and a blob and there you go.
-Maelific Lords are great, but expect a FAQ nerf eventually (they're honestly pretty broken)
-None of the troops are good. Take CSM cultists if you want chaff troops (they get legion traits, character buffs, can respawn with stratagems, and have better stats for the same points).
-For infantry, Disciples and Marauders are good veteran style troopers, carrying special weapons and riding around in Chimeras or Valkaries, or sitting in cover with sniper rifles for cheap plinkers.
-Access to guard artillery is good, and something that CSM can't really do. Basilisk batteries and Colossus Bombards seem pretty decent to reach out and touch things while short/mid ranged CSM units apply pressure.
-Everything else CSM can do better, like Spawn > Ogryns.
For a detachment, I'd say bring a vanguard with a psyker lord, a bunch of mauraders, and a handful of artillery pieces for spice.
Just curious, why would you take a Colossus? The Earthshaker Batteries are S9 and get to "re-roll" their number of shots. And cover seems underused this edition as to make ignoring it pretty meh. Plus I have to think 9 times out of 10 you are going to be pointing these things at targets they will never enjoy the benefit of cover anyway. Two Earthshakers is 160 pts, a Colossus is 150 + whatever secondary weapon option you take. Sure a Colossus can move, but why would it? Seems that in almost every case I'd rather just have a sea of Earthshakers...but that's just me.
*shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.
McGibs wrote: *shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.
Gotcha. It does make sense in some corner cases...though I don't own any I do own two Griffons and I take them from time to time despite the shots being weaker because they are cheapo and that makes it seem more appealing to me.
For the guy who asked the initial question, I am sorry to have neglected the humble Earthshaker Battery. Don't know why, honestly, because I can't say enough good things about massed Earthshaker fire...a pile of Earthshakers turn MEQs into Guardsmen...reliably take out light armor...pelt monsters/high W characters with multi-dmg fire. So good for their points. Gotta keep them protected from DS and charges though.
McGibs wrote: *shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.
Gotcha. It does make sense in some corner cases...though I don't own any I do own two Griffons and I take them from time to time despite the shots being weaker because they are cheapo and that makes it seem more appealing to me.
For the guy who asked the initial question, I am sorry to have neglected the humble Earthshaker Battery. Don't know why, honestly, because I can't say enough good things about massed Earthshaker fire...a pile of Earthshakers turn MEQs into Guardsmen...reliably take out light armor...pelt monsters/high W characters with multi-dmg fire. So good for their points. Gotta keep them protected from DS and charges though.
Aren't Earthshakers pretty expensive though?
It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.
It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.
1) I mean, compared to some things yes, but they are fairly reliable for what they are...and as far as artillery goes they are our/Guard's cheapest option really. The problem is artillery is hugely overcosted in 8th period.
2) Hard agree about the Cyclops. :(
Intercessor wrote: Malcador Battle Tank and Defender are heavy support now right? Is that the same for regular guard
Yup, HS. Same for both, since Renegades just use Guard profiles for their "shared" units anyhow.
It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.
1) I mean, compared to some things yes, but they are fairly reliable for what they are...and as far as artillery goes they are our/Guard's cheapest option really. The problem is artillery is hugely overcosted in 8th period.
2) Hard agree about the Cyclops. :(
Intercessor wrote: Malcador Battle Tank and Defender are heavy support now right? Is that the same for regular guard
Yup, HS. Same for both, since Renegades just use Guard profiles for their "shared" units anyhow.
For the price of 2 Earthshakers, I could instead get 3 Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters. Doesn't ignore LOS, but it's 36 shots at BS3+, instead of 2D6 shots at BS4+. Earthshaker has more strength and damage though, but dunno if its enough to make up for 24-34 extra shots.
Edit - Also yes, Cyclops would be so awesome. Tempted to just include some anyway. Screw the rules!
For the price of 2 Earthshakers, I could instead get 3 Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters. Doesn't ignore LOS, but it's 36 shots at BS3+, instead of 2D6 shots at BS4+. Earthshaker has more strength and damage though, but dunno if its enough to make up for 24-34 extra shots.
Edit - Also yes, Cyclops would be so awesome. Tempted to just include some anyway. Screw the rules!
I mean Renegades are awful, you're not going to get any arguments out of me. I was constraining myself to Renegade units because that was the question asked, but if you are going to start talking about CSM units then you should really just be taking a CSM force. The Rapier Quad HB is ridiculous, total agreement.
Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.
So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.
My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)
Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote: Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.
So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.
My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)
Also any advice is appreciated.
Well it's only polite to show us this lady hellwright conversion
(I have no advice to give, I just want to see the model )
Though I'm also considering a Dark Mech army, and am doing my own conversion plans atm, and I also considered renegades. However I may just run CSM Cultists, which you could also use those solar auxilia models for. Just as an option.
Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote: Hey there, I'm still new to tabletop, got around 1,500 of admech and decided to start a renegade list.
So far I got a lovely lady chaos hellwright,(pride of my paint/converting work) and 3 marauder squads of 5 with 2 grenade launchers apiece.
Using tech thrall models with guard arms weapons, dark mech army I plan on getting a traitor knight soon to compliment the tech thralls and lady.
Also got ursiax(claw thallax) to be warp talons enslaved by my dark mechanicus lady, for the fluff.
My question is what kind of troop(or elite) should be my main force, it will decide the models and bits I pick up on ebay.
I'm leaning on traitor militia only because I can use forgeworld solar auxilia models for them(plus they look techy)
Also any advice is appreciated.
Well it's only polite to show us this lady hellwright conversion
(I have no advice to give, I just want to see the model )
Though I'm also considering a Dark Mech army, and am doing my own conversion plans atm, and I also considered renegades. However I may just run CSM Cultists, which you could also use those solar auxilia models for. Just as an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still need work but that's the general color scheme of the rust cult.
Has anyone had any success with pure Renegades and Heretics lists yet?
In my case I had many victories with my R&H pure lists. My army is based heavily on infantery and supported by some tanks like a couple or three Leman russ variant tanks and artillery.
Usually I play 1500-2000p lists (or 80-100PL, both cases are almost the same) but I have to admit it's not easy to win with them but so satisfy.
I have a Malcador heavy R+H army which includes a Valdor as the serious anti tank, but it looks like I cannot take it (despite the model coming with Renegade crew).
Has anyone had any success with pure Renegades and Heretics lists yet?
In my case I had many victories with my R&H pure lists. My army is based heavily on infantery and supported by some tanks like a couple or three Leman russ variant tanks and artillery.
Usually I play 1500-2000p lists (or 80-100PL, both cases are almost the same) but I have to admit it's not easy to win with them but so satisfy.
I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.
With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?
They are de facto SQUATted in 8th. If you view FW website now, you would find most Renegades related products gone and discontinued.
To use GSC rules instead is a wise idea.
I realize I am posting to an older thread but nobody addressed this post and it contains so much misinformation I felt I had to.
R&H have NOT been 'Squatted' either de facto or de jure. Their model line has disappeared from FW, this is true, but they went to the bother of giving us explicit (if kinda crappy) rules for 8th Ed.
Yes, they are in a bad place. No, they have not disappeared.
I've always wanted to run one, fluffy, renegade psykers leading mutants and Spawn, basically a CC based list. Purely based on theme and aesthetics.
With most of the codecies out, have things changed for us, or should I just wait and use GSC rules?
They are de facto SQUATted in 8th. If you view FW website now, you would find most Renegades related products gone and discontinued.
To use GSC rules instead is a wise idea.
I realize I am posting to an older thread but nobody addressed this post and it contains so much misinformation I felt I had to.
R&H have NOT been 'Squatted' either de facto or de jure. Their model line has disappeared from FW, this is true, but they went to the bother of giving us explicit (if kinda crappy) rules for 8th Ed.
Yes, they are in a bad place. No, they have not disappeared.
They gave rushed and incomplete rules for 8th edition. Followed by no updates or fixes to the errors that exist.
The only standout good unit in the R&H index got nerfed so bad his ancestors got cancer.
Forgeworld then totally removed the entire R&H line from sale. It no longer exists. No comment or release to say that it was temporary or that anything was happening with the moulds. Just gone.
So basically there's 2 possible outcomes:
1) GW are planning to make R&H a mainstream army choice, releasing a full official R&H / Lost and Damned codex along with a full line of plastic models.
2) GW have decided its a largely conversion-based army, and as they have decided in 8th to remove all unit choices that rely on conversion ("no model, no rules"), they decided just to squat the R&H line. If people want renegade guard, they can just run normal guard and add spikes to the models.
Going from GW history, version 2 is the one most people believe/expect, as it's the one with the most precedent. I'd personally prefer if version 1 was the case, but it's doubtful. Or at least, it won't happen for several years, as 2019 and 2020 are already planned out.
Excommunicatus wrote: So you used a lot of words to agree that they have crappy rules and still exist.
Coolbeans.
I mean... sure.
Not sure why you even brought it up if you were going to live in your own little world about it regardless of the response.
You even necro'd an old tactica thread that seems to only get about 1 post a month at best, just to... what? Try and tell people that R&H are alive and well?
If that was true, they would have a much more active tactica for starters. And they'd have models for sale.
To advise that R&H have not been Squatted, de facto or de jure. It's fairly explicit.
Honestly, I'm not sure why you responded to me with a whole bunch of answers to questions I didn't pose or follow-ons from things I didn't say.
I said they existed. They do.
I said they had crappy rules. They do.
I said they still exist. They do.
At no point did I argue that yes, absolutely everyone should pile on the bandwagon with zero-to-no-concerns, even if I think your concerns are hilariously overblown and melodramatic. To the contrary, I openly stated that they were in "a bad place".
They are easily the worst army in tge game.
They gave us just enough to field the army since they promised to make all armies useable but the index is broken i doubt we will get any love making us useless as a pure army.
Best thing they could do is give us a rule to make AM useable with chaos just like brood brothers since AM is still supported. Hopefully they will give us the ability to choose a chaos god which will be in the keyword and a unique relic, order, and stratagem just like regiments do but I dont see it hsppening nor a codex to fix the mess we are in
R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.
R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.
In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AMBS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.
I was meanimg as pure armies. Atleast gk hwve stratagems. Otherwise you can say the same about using gk as allies to guard and gk smite spame be deadly
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
Thank you for the support
But back to the orgional topic. R&h is best as a cp for other factions(which negates the point of this being an r&h post)and for heavy weapion such as russ tanks (which AM does better) and elites such as maruder snipers and command and diciple heavy weapon teams. Larger troops can be supported with vox, sigles or enforcers but as a battery its cheaper to run as cultist as msu as well as enoforcers take up valuable points and elite slot.
Valk orgyns are devistating alpha strike unit but dont survive long after taking out their target. If accompanied by characters they which survives til turn2 its also great to summon deamons such as plague bearer or bloodletter bomb.
We all need to keep emailing gwfaq team so they can fix the army or replace with a brood bros rule for chaos in the AM codex (not as cool as a new codex but i doubt we will ever get one) it will also make us meta and supported . With chspter apprived coming soon we need to do this asap.
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.
Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.
And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.
I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.
Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.
Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.
Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.
And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.
I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.
Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.
Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.
Nope i meant double smite. Since good old warpflux does exist, which is a anti vehicle smite that can still be used against infantry targets.
Excommunicatus wrote: No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.
GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.
Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.
A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.
I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.
And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).
First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.
Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.
And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.
I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.
Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.
Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.
Nope i meant double smite. Since good old warpflux does exist, which is a anti vehicle smite that can still be used against infantry targets.
Yes... and it's even not too bad compared to smite against vehicles. But he can only cast one power per turn, so even if you gave him both smites he can't use them both.
Edit: Unless there's been an errata or something I've missed, which happens cos 40k is currently a bit of a rules mess when it comes to bookkeeping. If you can cast two powers a turn, then 80 points would be less overpriced than I initially thought. I still would say 60 points is closer to the mark. But as far as I can see, Malefics only cast once per turn, so 80 points is a rip off.
I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
Diciples, command squads and direct copies from AM codex are worth their points imho but only just and not at competitive levels nor Is it enough to make the army anything but the lowest tier their is.
But we all need to email gw as much as possible to get any changes to happen.
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
"Maybee mortar teams" --> R&H Mortar teams are about as broken as mortars get. That said, mortar teams without hw are 3ppm so 25% cheaper then your regular militia dude. See the irony, secondly mortars in general are too cheap at 5pts a piece, beeing allowed to field 6 in one heavy support squad is nigh memeworthy. The average renegade commander at 25pts is about as good as a platoon commander at 30 , except for the lack of orders. Marauders are one of those units that actually get gak done on their own and survive alot of stuff thrown at them, albeit we need to mention the fact that a 6ppm a near TAC/CSM profile with an always on -1 to hit and +2 on saves for when the unit is in cover is a special kind of broken in the scalling. (just like Kabalites are but that is another discussion)
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
"Maybee mortar teams" --> R&H Mortar teams are about as broken as mortars get. That said, mortar teams without hw are 3ppm so 25% cheaper then your regular militia dude. See the irony, secondly mortars in general are too cheap at 5pts a piece, beeing allowed to field 6 in one heavy support squad is nigh memeworthy. The average renegade commander at 25pts is about as good as a platoon commander at 30 , except for the lack of orders. Marauders are one of those units that actually get gak done on their own and survive alot of stuff thrown at them, albeit we need to mention the fact that a 6ppm a near TAC/CSM profile with an always on -1 to hit and +2 on saves for when the unit is in cover is a special kind of broken in the scalling. (just like Kabalites are but that is another discussion)
Lol, I like the way you slip in the Renegade Commander in the middle of the block of text and hope nobody notices, as if he's anywhere near as useful as mortars or marauders. Yes, he's 5 points cheaper than a platoon commander, but those orders are worth 30 points by themselves. He's cheap enough for noone to really care about spending 25 points on the HQ tax though, but he's effectively just dead weight.
Mortars I agree do get better if you literally spam as many of them as possible, but I don't tend to like playing hordes of identical models. 18 mortar teams would bore me to make (but might be fun to play with just for the box of dice). But you run the risk of them being updated in CA and becoming useless (like those people who painted 3 malefic lords and who now shelf them).
You can shittalk R&H commanders all you want. Matter of fact is that he recently, and constantly fethed up units that cost way more then he does in melee after my lines got charged. Matter of fact also is that he can equip powerweapons. AND the +1 ld aura is a really usefull tool too for R&H since we actually profit quite abit from it, unlike other factions.
You can shittalk R&H commanders all you want. Matter of fact is that he recently, and constantly fethed up units that cost way more then he does in melee after my lines got charged. Matter of fact also is that he can equip powerweapons. AND the +1 ld aura is a really usefull tool too for R&H since we actually profit quite abit from it, unlike other factions.
I was talking about the 25 point base commander, who does very little (compared to a 30 point commander who can give orders and is a huge force multiplier).
In my own R&H list I use commanders, because I give them a plasma pistol and/or power weapons, and put them in Chimera with plasma marauder squads. Cramming even more heavy hitting weapons (and even a juicy hidden fist) into a chimera turns it into a nice little threatening distraction carnifex.
I mean really it just shows how good marauders are, as it basically just adds a leader to the marauder squad.
But that's no longer a 25 point unit, he goes up to nearer 40.
Personally I still like him, but the argument was whether he was better than an IG commander, and he isn't because the IG commander adds a lot more to the army as a whole. The R&H commander is basically just a glorified squad leader (and he does that job pretty well). My list has 2 of them.
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
None of which was disputed, but yeah comparing the ML to the IP would have been a much better idea in a comment responding to a claim that GK Smite spam is "deadly".
Excommunicatus wrote: I couldn't remember the name of GKTac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.
At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.
Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.
But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.
The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.
Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).
None of which was disputed, but yeah comparing the ML to the IP would have been a much better idea in a comment responding to a claim that GK Smite spam is "deadly".
I'm pretty sure that Platoon Commanders are 20pts. Company Commanders are 30.
Either way can we get back to the actual point of the post?
Our units are over pointed and under powered with a couple of exceptions.
We have the fire support that chaos lacks and our Russ tanks ability to fire twice is great even if it doesnt get a good regimental bonus.
Troops are only good for cp generation and mild speed bump and are well over pointed and under powered. If you like large squads then Vox casters or enforcers but since. The only Benefit of large squads over msu is to maximize the use of single target stratagems which we dont get or to protect weapon upgrades which are a waste of points when accuracy is so low and they die to a stiff breeze its best just to run msu cultists without upgrades to save points or a stubber at most imho.
Elite choices like command squads, diciples and maruders are our only balanced units. I use them with auto/lazcannon and sniper Maruders and it works well unit the enemy Breaks through the troop screen which always happens until i get more deamons.
The only way to run competitively is as a small cp battery with maybe some big guns for another army or as a loyalist guard army.
Excommunicatus wrote: R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.
R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.
In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AMBS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.
I like your thinking.
The 10 CP build is why you take R&H. It's a smaller component of a Daemon army that enables things like Bloodletter bombs.
As far as I am aware, AM doesn't have access to an elite melee unit of this caliber. That may be the only advantage R&H has over Imperial units.
Excommunicatus wrote: R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.
R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.
In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AMBS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.
I like your thinking.
The 10 CP build is why you take R&H. It's a smaller component of a Daemon army that enables things like Bloodletter bombs.
As far as I am aware, AM doesn't have access to an elite melee unit of this caliber. That may be the only advantage R&H has over Imperial units.
Right. I run them alongside 60 Daemonettes 'cause I'm a deviant who prefers fluff to crunch, but yeah.
No, not really. A Daemon Prince is always a better choice.
My R&H stand still, all game, and have no melee ability whatsoever so I throw Daemonettes, Seekers and Hellflayers at my opponent to stop them reaching my lines at all cost while I blow them to bits with 18 Mortars.
My R&H stand still, all game, and have no melee ability whatsoever so I throw Daemonettes, Seekers and Hellflayers at my opponent to stop them reaching my lines at all cost while I blow them to bits with 18 Mortars.
@ph34r
Actually in most of the cases any daemon unit that stands between your opponent and your R&H is decent. For better informations i reccomend you the Daemons tactica thread, i myself am more of a CSM dude, but even then, the name of the game is to slow down your enemies with your allies and shell them.
Granted R&H give you a great ammount of CP, which especially is usefull for CSM since VotLW and Cacophony are some of the best stratagems ever.
The longer a match tends to go the better your chances are with R&H, especially if you field arty. That is why you always include speedbump units /tarpits in any R&H list, or a big ammount of offensive right up your enemies face units (Daemons, kyborgs, etc.) which will dictate and bind your enemy whilest your arty backup does the cleaning out chore.
This ofcourse means that highly mobile flying units are a weakspot, so plan accordingly.
Plague bearers and nurglings as sneaky objectives grabbers and great speedbumbs and nurgles great for anti deepstrkers or inflitraters
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ulfhednir86 wrote: Plague bearers and nurglings as sneaky objectives grabbers and great speedbumbs and nurgles great for anti deepstrkers or inflitraters
also r&h are great summoners imho and can use soul sacrifice, deamonic pact and deamonic possession stratagems while i find nurgles ability to revive and resilience and a good combo. But also summoning bloodletters by a alhpa strike character from a Valkyrie then their charging bonus could be devastating as well.
The german name for obliterators, we also sometimes call them Obihörnchen, which is the mascot of obi a market for guarden and building supplies, you can find a tool there for everything just like obliterators were a tool for every solution.
Alert put a condom on as these leaks may cause uncontrollable heretical nerd boners.
Blackstone fortress leaks have uncovered traitor guard models and other chaos crawlies including 30pt rogue pyscher.
First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!
Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.
Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)
Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?
Fifth: now those psykers are great!
Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha
Also appears that traitor guard sergents get an extra wound rather than attack
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!
Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.
Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)
Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?
Fifth: now those psykers are great!
Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha
Unprotected slannesh Worship spreads nurgles love lol
ulfhednir86 wrote: Also appears that traitor guard sergents get an extra wound rather than attack
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!
Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.
Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)
Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?
Fifth: now those psykers are great!
Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha
Unprotected slannesh Worship spreads nurgles love lol
There was a time posts like this were common and appropriate on this board. I miss those times.
I'm buying at least 100 of those Traitor Guard. They should have been released a decade ago.
All joking aside it looks like a really exciting time for us heretics with a.Potential codex coming. This was from100% factual rumours
"After years of languishing in Forge World army lists, Traitor Guard will finally receive their own codex. There will be no new model range, the new kits will just be a Cadian Battleforce with a sprue of spikey bits and a couple of Chaos Marauder command parts thrown into the box for good measure. The Traitor Guard codex itself will also just be an Astra Militarum in a plastic bag with a spikey bits sprue in it. The collector’s edition will include a Daemons codex."
For me if the rumour is true im going to get the collectors edition For the first time ever. But they mentioned no new models yet they exist in the blackstone box so. Im sceptical but hopeful
Also in blackstone fortress there are also chaos beastmen and dark magos which could also be in the codex bringing some aos players to us and if dark magos in there too they will be great with renegade knights or just fixin our tanks.
Time to gather our info and develop tactics.
In The blackstone rules it stats that the tratior guard sergent gets a extra wound and no mention of an extra attack which is great for gunlines and using them As take and hold tarpits.
We can also see that they have full squads with melee or lasgun loadouts so we get our flexibility back.
Also with deamons in the collectors ed it could mean deamology is back? Lets hope.
Also do we think dark magos and beastmen are included? Beastmen could be used as mutatants
Huh. Are you sure about that?
I imagine we will get a proper upgrade sprue with other helmets like gscIG.
Secondly an IG codex? with spikes?!?
I mean how do we represent beastmen, mutants, mercenaries, etc.? I have a feeling someone pulled your leg there ulf.
Btw we miss the Shotgun option it seems, i would love to get mechanized traitor Guard units with shotguns
Not Online!!! wrote: Huh. Are you sure about that?
I imagine we will get a proper upgrade sprue with other helmets like gscIG.
Secondly an IG codex? with spikes?!?
I mean how do we represent beastmen, mutants, mercenaries, etc.? I have a feeling someone pulled your leg there ulf.
Btw we miss the Shotgun option it seems, i would love to get mechanized traitor Guard units with shotguns
I. Think upgrade sprews as well but. There are proper models in the blackstone box but it coould be an upgrade sprew.
The quote is copy from The only website i could find that Mentioned it.
Could mean simular to guard doesnt mean it is the guard codex. There is beastmen and dark mech in the box we can see it in The pictures and we do lack hqs and in. The point list has chaos beastmen.
I hope we keep some from the renegade index elites and shotguns but it May just be veterans that take em or maybe troops we dont know yet
Honestly, i imagine they will probably take over the units from the index and boost them to a playable level. We proabably also get maybee a stronger structure torwards IG structures as in we maybee get orders or other benefits?
Elite Level i am fairly certain that we will keep what we got, maybee we get beastmen/ bigger mutants as a elite choice.
I also think they will tie the demagogue devotions to the basic faction traits, which in all honesty could be fairly great. Probably they also let us combine them with the former mark benefits of the coven?
In a way, they basically got an relatively easy way by just adapting the IA13 list for 8th, what with demagogue devotions and the covenants basically beeing easily able to fullfill the purpose of faction traits.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, i imagine they will probably take over the units from the index and boost them to a playable level. We proabably also get maybee a stronger structure torwards IG structures as in we maybee get orders or other benefits?
Elite Level i am fairly certain that we will keep what we got, maybee we get beastmen/ bigger mutants as a elite choice.
I also think they will tie the demagogue devotions to the basic faction traits, which in all honesty could be fairly great. Probably they also let us combine them with the former mark benefits of the coven?
In a way, they basically got an relatively easy way by just adapting the IA13 list for 8th, what with demagogue devotions and the covenants basically beeing easily able to fullfill the purpose of faction traits.
If they stick with the extra wound on squad leaders not only would it be unqiue and appropriate it would make our troopers more flexable for melee or shooting . The extra wound may just be for blackstone tho but if not then Take my Moneys gw
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, i imagine they will probably take over the units from the index and boost them to a playable level. We proabably also get maybee a stronger structure torwards IG structures as in we maybee get orders or other benefits?
Elite Level i am fairly certain that we will keep what we got, maybee we get beastmen/ bigger mutants as a elite choice.
I also think they will tie the demagogue devotions to the basic faction traits, which in all honesty could be fairly great. Probably they also let us combine them with the former mark benefits of the coven?
In a way, they basically got an relatively easy way by just adapting the IA13 list for 8th, what with demagogue devotions and the covenants basically beeing easily able to fullfill the purpose of faction traits.
If they stick with the extra wound on squad leaders not only would it be unqiue and appropriate it would make our troopers more flexable for melee or shooting . The extra wound may just be for blackstone tho but if not then Take my Moneys gw
Also to note that beastmen are 6 points each
Kinda difficult no? They would fit the bill for a Melee orientated Elite choice, but we will see. I also think the 6 ppm is a given so they are about as good as Disciples /marauders (maybee tougher but no BS and armor?!?)
@ph34r: Considering A: That the traitor Guardsmen are explicitly named Traitor Guardsmen and B: The Rogue psyker named like what he is in R&H i would imagine that yes, actually we are very likely to get a codex.
Not to mention that GW revived GSC and did the one thing people said that the hell would freeze over before, giving sisters an update.
I imagine that lost and the damned / R&H will get out alongside the Cult legions, and as part of a general update to the CSM lineup which is preeeeeeeety old now. Heck Abbadon is older then some people in this forum, it's about time the (h)armless would get an update, especially now what with the whole advancement in story.
What surprises me though, positively, that Huron Blackheart got a mention in the news for Blackstone fortress, because in all honesty, i would prefer this dude over abbadon, simply because he actually gets gak done and he actually has or seems to have a plan, unlike failbaddon.
Again it could be refering to Upgrade kits like the primius have for chspters and refering to it being Closer to imperial guard stats which will still be a. Mass improvement and the fact they mentioned it coming and the collectors ed having deamons in. It hint to an actual codex. Also the fact they said a codex is coming just not new models.
ph34r wrote: Did you actually read that link ulfhednir86?
All of the rumors are obvious satire and things that are jokes and will never happen. Also it is from ten months ago.
Your link is a joke, and the title COMPLETELY FACTUAL RUMORS should immediately give that away.
Ok then How about the fact that the new models are available in. The blackstone fortress box set and gw said they can be used in 40k games and has point costs for them as well including chaos beastmen?
I'm not going to get my hopes up, but it would be nice if it happened. Some of the other rumors in that thread were about Fried Chicken.
Forgeworld has been removing Traitor Guard models for some time now, it would not surprise to me to learn GW is moving in this direction.
However, while I am not a rumor monger, I heard different.
I do Concur and am hopeful and sceptical at the same time of these rumours. Even a brood brothers like regiment would improve it but a full codex will be the best
ph34r wrote: Did you actually read that link ulfhednir86?
All of the rumors are obvious satire and things that are jokes and will never happen. Also it is from ten months ago.
Your link is a joke, and the title COMPLETELY FACTUAL RUMORS should immediately give that away.
Ok then How about the fact that the new models are available in. The blackstone fortress box set and gw said they can be used in 40k games and has point costs for them as well including chaos beastmen?
The plot will continue to advance. Cypher will reveal to Roboute Guilliman the Dark Angels best kept secret: Luther’s blend of herbs and spices that make the secret original recipe for his world famous Caliban Fried Chicken.
You think that kind of source is reliable?-)
Good news is that joke is likely coming true eventually but in better shape than the joke version
ph34r wrote: Did you actually read that link ulfhednir86?
All of the rumors are obvious satire and things that are jokes and will never happen. Also it is from ten months ago.
Your link is a joke, and the title COMPLETELY FACTUAL RUMORS should immediately give that away.
Ok then How about the fact that the new models are available in. The blackstone fortress box set and gw said they can be used in 40k games and has point costs for them as well including chaos beastmen?
The plot will continue to advance. Cypher will reveal to Roboute Guilliman the Dark Angels best kept secret: Luther’s blend of herbs and spices that make the secret original recipe for his world famous Caliban Fried Chicken.
You think that kind of source is reliable?-)
Good news is that joke is likely coming true eventually but in better shape than the joke version
From the screenshot above your comment looks like at least we will be getting some new troops from gw which we all know is our one of our biggest pitfalls which will be announced soon according to them. So new models, units and potentially a codex or updated rules i think we will he getting some good news.
Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
Well, I have been talking to people who should know about whether or not there's going to be a Black Legion supplement for 8th edition.
What I was told is that BSF is as close as we are going to get to a supplement. I think that meant Traitor Guard and Beastmen are now something you can include in your CSM army.
Who knows if there's more to expect from than that. I'm not optimistic but open to being surprised somewhere down the road.
What would really be the big deal for me would be if the new Traitor Guard get the Renegades + Heretics keyword. If they become basically the same as Cultists that is a bit weaksauce to me.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
Well, I have been talking to people who should know about whether or not there's going to be a Black Legion supplement for 8th edition.
What I was told is that BSF is as close as we are going to get to a supplement. I think that meant Traitor Guard and Beastmen are now something you can include in your CSM army.
Who knows if there's more to expect from than that. I'm not optimistic but open to being surprised somewhere down the road.
Rather than CSM did they mention renegades and heretics?
Well, I have been talking to people who should know about whether or not there's going to be a Black Legion supplement for 8th edition.
What I was told is that BSF is as close as we are going to get to a supplement. I think that meant Traitor Guard and Beastmen are now something you can include in your CSM army.
Who knows if there's more to expect from than that. I'm not optimistic but open to being surprised somewhere down the road.
You said Black Legion.... Did you mean to say Renegades and Heretics?
The plot will continue to advance. Cypher will reveal to Roboute Guilliman the Dark Angels best kept secret: Luther’s blend of herbs and spices that make the secret original recipe for his world famous Caliban Fried Chicken.
You think that kind of source is reliable?-)
Good news is that joke is likely coming true eventually but in better shape than the joke version
I mean for a joke post they were eerily on point though.
From the screenshot above your comment looks like at least we will be getting some new troops from gw which we all know is our one of our biggest pitfalls which will be announced soon according to them. So new models, units and potentially a codex or updated rules i think we will he getting some good news.
Yes but they are 100% unrelated to the joke rumour linked by you. They are not "upgrade sprue" and the codex won't be IG codex+upgrade sprue. That joke rumour was done purely as joke with no relation to the blackstone fortress figures.
Good news is joke rumour would have been lackluster release especially model wise. Real deal is better than the joke would have been if it had been real.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
Imperium players were glamouring for the rogue trader troops as new units. Instead they got 1 fixed size unit and that's it. Don't count on getting better than that until proper codex comes up.
From the screenshot above your comment looks like at least we will be getting some new troops from gw which we all know is our one of our biggest pitfalls which will be announced soon according to them. So new models, units and potentially a codex or updated rules i think we will he getting some good news.
Yes but they are 100% unrelated to the joke rumour linked by you. They are not "upgrade sprue" and the codex won't be IG codex+upgrade sprue. That joke rumour was done purely as joke with no relation to the blackstone fortress figures.
Good news is joke rumour would have been lackluster release especially model wise. Real deal is better than the joke would have been if it had been real.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
Imperium players were glamouring for the rogue trader troops as new units. Instead they got 1 fixed size unit and that's it. Don't count on getting better than that until proper codex comes up.
By the sound of your pessimism we are not getting a codex anyway. But again 30pt rogue psycher, 6pt beastmen, 4pt tratior guard and possibly dark magos still better than we were before.
I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
I could live with that.
Me too. I started to carve off the shoulder pads off my guardmens because of their 6+ save and looks neat but now doesnt look like i need too. Assuming By the images and name that they have flak armour making them the best horde unit available to chaos.
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
I could live with that.
Me too. I started to carve off the shoulder pads off my guardmens because of their 6+ save and looks neat but now doesnt look like i need too. Assuming By the images and name that they have flak armour making them the best horde unit available to chaos.
Why would you do that? you could just paint and make them look like they were in terrible condition.
As for the stats, we have no idea, just like we don't have one for units sizes beyond that atleast 5 + lead to an sergant.
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
I could live with that.
Me too. I started to carve off the shoulder pads off my guardmens because of their 6+ save and looks neat but now doesnt look like i need too. Assuming By the images and name that they have flak armour making them the best horde unit available to chaos.
Why would you do that? you could just paint and make them look like they were in terrible condition.
As for the stats, we have no idea, just like we don't have one for units sizes beyond that atleast 5 + lead to an sergant.
Well, I have been talking to people who should know about whether or not there's going to be a Black Legion supplement for 8th edition.
What I was told is that BSF is as close as we are going to get to a supplement. I think that meant Traitor Guard and Beastmen are now something you can include in your CSM army.
Who knows if there's more to expect from than that. I'm not optimistic but open to being surprised somewhere down the road.
You said Black Legion.... Did you mean to say Renegades and Heretics?
Haha... no. And please don't interpret anything I have to say as a rumor. It's safe to assume I'm an optimistic wishlister informed by some very non-specific conversations.
A few other Black Legion players and I coordinate and share notes. We've been pressing some creative / marketing types we know for details on a Black Legion supplement for 8th edition. The people we talk to are tight lipped but we occasionally get some useful information.
The comment I posted - that this is as close as we are going to get to a Black Legion supplement - is exactly what we were told. I think it's a reference to the fact Black Legion is the largest and most diverse Traitor Legion. Also, it's a Blackstone Fortress, that's Abaddon's thing.
FWIW, the person who said this could be misleading us or misinformed. We're not talking with anyone having anything to do with release schedules. The most we ever see is a spreadsheet with titles we don't always understand and the contents of that document are usually already being discussed on Dakka.
That said, we noticed that Forgeworld Renegade Cultists have been going away. I have no special insight into why that's happening only that it's happening around the same time as the release of BSF.
From the screenshot above your comment looks like at least we will be getting some new troops from gw which we all know is our one of our biggest pitfalls which will be announced soon according to them. So new models, units and potentially a codex or updated rules i think we will he getting some good news.
Yes but they are 100% unrelated to the joke rumour linked by you. They are not "upgrade sprue" and the codex won't be IG codex+upgrade sprue. That joke rumour was done purely as joke with no relation to the blackstone fortress figures.
Good news is joke rumour would have been lackluster release especially model wise. Real deal is better than the joke would have been if it had been real.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, we are going to get rules for squads of Exactly Seven And A Flamer No More No Less guardsmen to be used in 40k, but that is a far far cry from "we are finally getting a codex!!!"
I highly doubt they would limit the squad size to 7 for 40k that would be stupid especially when they will nees to write new stats for them anyway as the blackfortress does not use standard stats and allowing larger squad sizes and weapon options increases their sales.
Also a squad of 7 traitor guard is still better than current troop options so we are still better off. We will have to see when they announce it. If sisters can get a codex and plastic models we can get a rule update.
Imperium players were glamouring for the rogue trader troops as new units. Instead they got 1 fixed size unit and that's it. Don't count on getting better than that until proper codex comes up.
By the sound of your pessimism we are not getting a codex anyway. But again 30pt rogue psycher, 6pt beastmen, 4pt tratior guard and possibly dark magos still better than we were before.
Good thing to know reading comprehension still low as hell in dakkadakka if you think i said no codex coming.
Btw beastmen in bsf are indeed max 1 unit in army...probably rest too
ph34r wrote: I'm not sure I'd attribute us not getting a codex to pesimmism as much as I would say any assumption that we are getting a codex is based on a blatant joke-article..... It's not really pessimistic to think that we won't get something for which there has been zero official indication.
Now, Rogue Trader had "mini codexes", we might get one of those? That would not be the worst.
And the fact they commeted thst there is news coming soon on the offical fb page
And that's related to joke rumour...how? I keep saying the joke rumour is and was false which is good! Why you even want that joke rumour be true as if it was your codex would be imperial guard codex? That you can buy already...
ph34r wrote: Yikes, Blackstone Fortress guys have something new and random and do not work with Renegades and Heretics a single bit.
FANS: He GW , could we please finally get the rank and file soldiers for Chaos? You know the Lost and the dammned?
GW: Yeah sure, here you go! Also GW: (restricts any option, wargear and possible combination) Because 14 Traitor Guardsmen is the maximum traitor guardsmen per CSM ever. (TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) and don't even talk about that FW list that came out at the end of 7th, because that thing was terrible!
ph34r wrote: Yikes, Blackstone Fortress guys have something new and random and do not work with Renegades and Heretics a single bit.
FANS: He GW , could we please finally get the rank and file soldiers for Chaos? You know the Lost and the dammned?
GW: Yeah sure, here you go!
Also GW: (restricts any option, wargear and possible combination)
Because 14 Traitor Guardsmen is the maximum traitor guardsmen per CSM ever. (TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) and don't even talk about that FW list that came out at the end of 7th, because that thing was terrible!
Meanwhile owners of IA13: WTF!?!
Damn well the wait continues. May just have to run as csm for traitor guard and r&h allied vanguard and spearhead. Very disappointing gw gets no money from me.
ph34r wrote: Adding a detachment for only a maximum of 14 traitor guardsmen, a few random cultists, and a couple psykers sounds really really unappealing to me.
Especially when the only one you can fill is a patrol....
ph34r wrote: Adding a detachment for only a maximum of 14 traitor guardsmen, a few random cultists, and a couple psykers sounds really really unappealing to me.
Especially when the only one you can fill is a patrol....
You can have 2 units and they are units of 7 but yet gw missed another opportunity to make money and keep the fans happy.
Disappointing you think They would have common Sense.
You can have2 rogue psychers, 2 units traitor guard and a unit of beastmen for a battalion. But gw lost my money.
Now the renegade list has more bodies and 5points cheaper but the servants have more armour, firepower, melee power and smites.
Thoughts?
Rogue psykers are elites not hq.
The only hq you got avilable is hammerman, and he makes Rogue psykers and beastmen into non slot filling.
Ergo not possible.
You also need to take Hammerman in order to take any other unit (except maybe the electrodancers?)
All in all, I doubt there will be much matched play use for these guys. My only hope is that they release some kits and proper rules farther down the line like they did with the Silver Tower minis (Tzaangors)
Rogue psykers are elites not hq.
The only hq you got avilable is hammerman, and he makes Rogue psykers and beastmen into non slot filling.
Ergo not possible.
Damn missed that.
Making it extra lame. Cool models tho.
Just gotta wait for a real codex or update. The official fb page admin passed on My complaints about the lack of traitor guard army availability and said its a very popular complaint. I think the more we nag them the faster we will get an update but i Wont hold my Breath.
I really want a Gorgon, but R&H can't take them and FW no longer produces them apparently so I switched to a Crassus, but we can't legally take those either.
I really want a Gorgon, but R&H can't take them and FW no longer produces them apparently so I switched to a Crassus, but we can't legally take those either.
Walking, ehm i guess running and if you are lucky a Chimera and if you are particulary unlucky thrown out a valkyrie.
Honestly beyond a squadron of Valkyires / the other small flyer we don't have a mass transport, and no tellyporta or tide stratagem.
In short, no we don't have a mass transport, why should we, it isn't like half the options got killed off from 7th to 8th....
I really want a Gorgon, but R&H can't take them and FW no longer produces them apparently so I switched to a Crassus, but we can't legally take those either.
The problem with that is that using the Covenant of Slaanesh for that one unit of Mutants means the entire rest of my army can't use the Covenant of Tzeentch, which is vastly more useful.
Excommunicatus wrote: The problem with that is that using the Covenant of Slaanesh for that one unit of Mutants means the entire rest of my army can't use the Covenant of Tzeentch, which is vastly more useful.
That and Nike suck. Vans uber alles.
Depends, tzeench is good for stationary gunline armies which dont need transports while slaansh is good for mobility which can be used to get into melee or kite at range so is still useful as far as covents can go.
Excommunicatus wrote: The problem with that is that using the Covenant of Slaanesh for that one unit of Mutants means the entire rest of my army can't use the Covenant of Tzeentch, which is vastly more useful.
That and Nike suck. Vans uber alles.
Covenant of tzeentch is overrated, tbh, yes you get another "turn " of basic fire for militia but honestly a turn of lasgun fire without the quantity or quality of IG squads.
In many ways Slaanesh is a more usefull covenant than the tzeentchian one, especially when we consider that not many enemies will ever charge our blobs in melee.
That said, if you meet a melee army tzeentch covenants will pay off.
Thirdly: Ü-ber, IF you need to use Krautisch atleast use Krautisch with Umlaute.
JK, but seriously the tzeentchian covenant got less usefull in it's transition to 8th. Not to mention that the general gunline capabilites of us are, in a word, less forcing then the closest "relative" (IG),
Apologies. I have no idea how to produce an umlaut on this keyboard.
As I mentioned earlier though, the vast majority of my R&H units deploy and then basically do not move again until they're dead and getting packed away. Covenant of Slaanesh for that army is nigh useless.
The Covenant of Tzeentch, while it isn't exactly 'powerful', 'strong' or 'good', gives my units something useful at least. Hitting in Overwatch on a 5+, even with the standard issue flashlight, is better than nothing.
It's true that IG/AM do a better version of my R&H army but I'm a Chaotic Evil sexual deviant, not a fascist, so balls to the Imperium.
Nearly half my units are on datasheets found in C:AM anyway....
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I guess then I'll just have to get a Gorgon/Crassus and hope that people don't mind that R&H can't legally take them. Or maybe the rules will have changed by the time I'm looking to make this addition.
Apologies. I have no idea how to produce an umlaut on this keyboard.
Shh, wanna know a secret?, use a E after the normal letter (Ü = UE)
The Covenant of Tzeentch, while it isn't exactly 'powerful', 'strong' or 'good', gives my units something useful at least. Hitting in Overwatch on a 5+, even with the standard issue flashlight, is better than nothing.
It's true that IG/AM do a better version of my R&H army but I'm a Chaotic Evil sexual deviant, not a fascist, so balls to the Imperium.
It is true that in essence you gain a unmodifyable shooting phase thanks to the overwatch ruling, beeing not affected by -1 to hits.
However the Imperium of man is not fascist but rather an "Absolutist" Feudalist society equally (or more) fragmented then the HRE before the whole reformation schtick happened and we decided to just wipe out 1/3 "germans"* Bonus points for an elected type of regency council heavily influenced by the ecclesiarchy and the nobility. Come to think of it, it actually seems like the HRE BUT IN SHPAACE before the 30 years war weakened the whole fundament of the empire. (granted the HRE had about as extensive an fundament as a gardenshed in the alps, very rudimentary)
History lession over, now for the Covenant, get yourself a Enforcer and big blobs of infantry and just charge the enemy, never something wrong especially in what the scope of your project is, to charge the enemy headfirst with squads that were laid toghether after taking casualities.
I got my fingers crossed, Freddy.
Huh? Freddy? why Freddy?
* Mind you the term german at the time went back to the medieval nationes system, for which you were split in blocks by language closeness mostly used for university students and later for the crusaders, in order to have the people understand each other and have a witness, which at the time was necessary for any legal interaction as buying and selling. Whilest the Latin block consisted of French, italian and iberian people, the Germans ranged from Dutch speakers to germans (all inclusive ergo with austrians and swiss germans, HUUURRAAY WE GOT INCLUDED, that one time) to Bohemians(Czech) Slovaks, slovenes, hungarians and even Poles, often times reffered to as franks.
Having my fingers crossed is a reference to a terrible movie, which I adore, called Freddy Got Fingered.
I think fascist v. feudalist is essentially a distinction without a difference, personally, but this is probably not the time or place for such a discussion.
ph34r wrote: Yikes, Blackstone Fortress guys have something new and random and do not work with Renegades and Heretics a single bit.
FANS: He GW , could we please finally get the rank and file soldiers for Chaos? You know the Lost and the dammned?
GW: Yeah sure, here you go!
Also GW: (restricts any option, wargear and possible combination)
Because 14 Traitor Guardsmen is the maximum traitor guardsmen per CSM ever. (TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) and don't even talk about that FW list that came out at the end of 7th, because that thing was terrible!
Meanwhile owners of IA13: WTF!?!
That pretty much those who had been looking forward to rogue trader forces thought. Zero options and just tiny patrol detachment to play with. Until they come on their own boxes this was inevitable.
ph34r wrote: Yikes, Blackstone Fortress guys have something new and random and do not work with Renegades and Heretics a single bit.
FANS: He GW , could we please finally get the rank and file soldiers for Chaos? You know the Lost and the dammned?
GW: Yeah sure, here you go!
Also GW: (restricts any option, wargear and possible combination)
Because 14 Traitor Guardsmen is the maximum traitor guardsmen per CSM ever. (TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) and don't even talk about that FW list that came out at the end of 7th, because that thing was terrible!
Meanwhile owners of IA13: WTF!?!
That pretty much those who had been looking forward to rogue trader forces thought. Zero options and just tiny patrol detachment to play with. Until they come on their own boxes this was inevitable.
Aye and I say it again, neither Rogue traider nor gellerpox deserved it. This time however it is basically especially insulting for players or renegades and heretics in a way.
Excommunicatus wrote: Apologies. I have no idea how to produce an umlaut on this keyboard.
As I mentioned earlier though, the vast majority of my R&H units deploy and then basically do not move again until they're dead and getting packed away. Covenant of Slaanesh for that army is nigh useless.
The Covenant of Tzeentch, while it isn't exactly 'powerful', 'strong' or 'good', gives my units something useful at least. Hitting in Overwatch on a 5+, even with the standard issue flashlight, is better than nothing.
It's true that IG/AM do a better version of my R&H army but I'm a Chaotic Evil sexual deviant, not a fascist, so balls to the Imperium.
Nearly half my units are on datasheets found in C:AM anyway....
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I guess then I'll just have to get a Gorgon/Crassus and hope that people don't mind that R&H can't legally take them. Or maybe the rules will have changed by the time I'm looking to make this addition.
I got my fingers crossed, Freddy.
If your army is sitting then why do you need transports?
Hopefully they will fix our list or atleast make IG useable with chaos at the very least.
I've been thinking recently that my plans for R&H are too heavy on the Renegades and too light on the Heretics, so I'm going to redress that. I'm planning to introduce some of the Female Arcadian bitz into my army in an effort to have at least 25% female soldats. Doing so will mean I have 21 pairs of male Cadian legs left over, which in turn means that by combining GSC Neophyte Torsos and guns, some more F Arcadian legs, the Cadian legs and these heads
I can build 29 'Mutants', an Enforcer and a Psyker Coven for about $100 CAD (via Victoria Miniatures and bitz sites) and have enough bitz left over to use the CCS Sniper bit to make a 'kukushka' statue. 30 Neophyte Hybrids are ca. $170 CAD alone, for comparison. All three of these units goes into a Gorgon/Crassus and become a fancy speed-bump for whatever is charging my line and avoiding my Daemons.
Daaaaaaamnit
Looks like they are increasing cultists to 5ppm but no news on Increasing guardmen at all. Seriously is the rule team monkeys? Do they not realise that guardsmen have twice the armour, regiment bonus that eclipse anything Cultists get amd orders on top? No way cultists should cost the same as guardsmen let alone cost more.
Cultists instead of 5+ save gets:
Cold and Bitter, VotLW, EC, Tide of traitors
I second that cultists should be chepaer than guardsmen providing that stratagems and Iron Warrior trait from above will not work on cultists or get heavy nerf
Gnollu wrote: Cultists instead of 5+ save gets:
Cold and Bitter, VotLW, EC, Tide of traitors
I second that cultists should be chepaer than guardsmen providing that stratagems and Iron Warrior trait from above will not work on cultists or get heavy nerf
GUardmen get morr stratagems and better regimental bonuses. So cults are still trash and getting worse not worth 5ppm imho
Gnollu wrote: Name 3 stratagems which are at least as good as VoTLW, EC, ToT
Name 3 Traits which CSM have that are better then Guard Traits, which do not got nerfed in the new CA
AND NO ABBADON IS NOT A GENERAL TRAIT, i am fed up by models like him which singlehandedly need to nerfs for units which don't need them, same with gulliman and SM codex.
How do you balance the points cost of a Guardsman who is vastly more effective in a soup than in a mono-list?
IMO, points cost is not the way to go, since upping their costs makes IG/AM unplayable as a mono-Faction, but clearly something needs to be done about CP batteries.
The answer, I would humbly suggest, is to modify how CPs work rather than upping points in a knee-jerk, scattergun fashion.
Soup lists get 'nerfed' in the competitive scene and fluff-mongers like me can keep calm and carry on.
Excommunicatus wrote: How do you balance the points cost of a Guardsman who is vastly more effective in a soup than in a mono-list?
IMO, points cost is not the way to go, since upping their costs makes IG/AM unplayable as a mono-Faction, but clearly something needs to be done about CP batteries.
The answer, I would humbly suggest, is to modify how CPs work rather than upping points in a knee-jerk, scattergun fashion.
Soup lists get 'nerfed' in the competitive scene and fluff-mongers like me can keep calm and carry on.
That would probably be the best way to go about it.
Excommunicatus wrote: How do you balance the points cost of a Guardsman who is vastly more effective in a soup than in a mono-list?
IMO, points cost is not the way to go, since upping their costs makes IG/AM unplayable as a mono-Faction, but clearly something needs to be done about CP batteries.
The answer, I would humbly suggest, is to modify how CPs work rather than upping points in a knee-jerk, scattergun fashion.
Soup lists get 'nerfed' in the competitive scene and fluff-mongers like me can keep calm and carry on.
That is a good idea. Maybe gain cp based on the point cost of the army as well as certain units adding more.
But guardsmen should cost a point more than conscripts, cultists or militia.
I would just make it so that CP can only be 'spent' by the Faction that generated them, so my Daemons wouldn't be able to use any of the 10CP my two R&H Battalions generate as an example.
People like me will still take R&H/AM Battalions because fluff über alles (with an umlaut, Not Online!!) but it utterly kills the soup problem in competitive play whereby a handful of Guardsmen make Custodes fight better, like they're trying to impress the Guard or something.
Excommunicatus wrote: I would just make it so that CP can only be 'spent' by the Faction that generated them, so my Daemons wouldn't be able to use any of the 10CP my two R&H Battalions generate as an example.
People like me will still take R&H/AM Battalions because fluff über alles (with an umlaut, Not Online!!) but it utterly kills the soup problem in competitive play whereby a handful of Guardsmen make Custodes fight better, like they're trying to impress the Guard or something.
Ok that would be much better and less changes to the mechanic and have 3 universal cp and all cp generated by the battalion only usable by the faction that generated them. Everyone Email the rules team and get it done then Bye bye battery.
It would make R&H even more useless since we don't have any good stratagems and lots of cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would also be harder to keep track of the cp. Could make a companion app that keeps track and/ or other stats like victory points, wounds, unit costs, turn Count and ect.
Would also help with campaigns.
For sure there'd be more bean-counting but I'm assuming most people/apps already have some sort of system in place to track CP so it wouldn't be a wildly oppressive burden, I don't think.
FWIW, it just took me a little over four minutes to separate CPs into Factions and edit how they're tracked in my army list spreadsheet.
For sure there'd be more bean-counting but I'm assuming most people/apps already have some sort of system in place to track CP so it wouldn't be a wildly oppressive burden, I don't think.
FWIW, it just took me a little over four minutes to separate CPs into Factions and edit how they're tracked in my army list spreadsheet.
I Normally have a dice to keep track of the cp and will need to mark them out especially because i use chaos soup ( i love a pure r&h with deamon army but also use deathguard for more nurgle fun )
Excommunicatus wrote: I would just make it so that CP can only be 'spent' by the Faction that generated them, so my Daemons wouldn't be able to use any of the 10CP my two R&H Battalions generate as an example.
People like me will still take R&H/AM Battalions because fluff über alles (with an umlaut, Not Online!!) but it utterly kills the soup problem in competitive play whereby a handful of Guardsmen make Custodes fight better, like they're trying to impress the Guard or something.
Ok that would be much better and less changes to the mechanic and have 3 universal cp and all cp generated by the battalion only usable by the faction that generated them. Everyone Email the rules team and get it done then Bye bye battery. It would make R&H even more useless since we don't have any good stratagems and lots of cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would also be harder to keep track of the cp. Could make a companion app that keeps track and/ or other stats like victory points, wounds, unit costs, turn Count and ect. Would also help with campaigns.
Thanks to their FAQ we can use i belive the one to run them over with the tanks, aerial recon (probably a better one for us), field repair, we even could technically make a leman russ a command tank altough we don't have the AM keyword so it would be useless, prebattle bombardment, Cover!, the one to improve overwatch for tanks, the one for scout sentinels.
Basically all Tank stratagems, and stratagems that don't demand a officer or a specific regiment (R&H replace regiment with Renegades and heretics) are technically allowed, mind you the infantry ones require often that the infantry is a Astra Militarum infantry unit which we are not.
Just to clarify that, so actually we can profit from Wyverns and Basiliks and of course the Cover! stratagem (I kinda want to try that the next time someone shoots at my stalker marauders in cover to inform them that they now have a 2+ armor rating on a 6ppm model )
To use ASTRA MILITARUM strategems you need to have a Battle-Forged army with at least one ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment, which begs the question 'what is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment?'
Do you just need one ASTRA MILITARUM unit in the Detachment, or must they all be ASTRA MILITARUM units?
Good spot though, I've never noticed that.
I suspect this is going to end up in YMDC.
Does this mean our Leman Russ get ObSec in a Battle-Forged army too?
Excommunicatus wrote: To use ASTRA MILITARUM strategems you need to have a Battle-Forged army with at least one ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment, which begs the question 'what is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment?'
Do you just need one ASTRA MILITARUM unit in the Detachment, or must they all be ASTRA MILITARUM units?
Good spot though, I've never noticed that.
I suspect this is going to end up in YMDC.
Does this mean our Leman Russ get ObSec in a Battle-Forged army too?
I honestly have no idea anymore To many FAQs and Ca 's
Excommunicatus wrote: To use ASTRA MILITARUM strategems you need to have a Battle-Forged army with at least one ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment, which begs the question 'what is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment?'
Do you just need one ASTRA MILITARUM unit in the Detachment, or must they all be ASTRA MILITARUM units?
Good spot though, I've never noticed that.
I suspect this is going to end up in YMDC.
Does this mean our Leman Russ get ObSec in a Battle-Forged army too?
For a battleforged detachment every unit needs to have the same keyword. Ie for an astra militrum detachment all units within it need to have the astra militrum keyword.
Renegades and heretics do not have the astra militrum keyword so cannot benefit from their stratagems.
Leman Russ tanks do get objective secured in a spearhead detachment per faq since they are a direct port from the AM codex but trades AM keyword for renegade and heretic and imperium for chaos
That quote ulfhednir86 is immediately followed by "Not sure if this is applicable only for loyalist Imperial Guard, so it's quite possible Renegades and Heretics don't get Objective Secured for their Leman Russ tanks..."
Bulwark of Humanity's opening spiel, says that the following rules are applicable to
"Battle-Forged armies that include ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments - that is, any Detachment that includes only ASTRA MILITARUM units."
Post-FAQ, a (legal) R&H Spearhead Detachment does not contain any ASTRA MILITARUM units at all and even without the FAQ, it isn't possible for a R&H army to take an AMHQ, so the Spearhead could not be an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment in any event.
if you read right under the link i did say that it might not be possible.
But in any case back to the tactics.
With deamonic summoning can you summon deamons outside of the deployment zone first turn? If so a Valkyrie grav chut team could also drop a bloodletter/plague bearer bomb very close.
Excommunicatus wrote: I know and I didn't mean to come across as aggressive or snippy, so apologies for that.
Lol you're Canadian you did not come across that way and sorry if i sounded defencive.
Either way back to tactics
1. Valkrye alpha assault squad.
A cheap valkrye flies up and grav chut drops a squad of 3-4 renegade ogryns with the berserker and if their is space some hqs like malificent lords or commanders, grav chut is risky but it allows you to deploy, move as normal then charge in the same turn . Ive used this to take out critical units first turn like Bjorn (warp flux helped alot). The malificent lord has a 4++ save and can hold back an entire flank trying to kill him giving precious time to take the board . Dont expect these to survive but if they do they can summon a deamon bomb.
2. Maruder snipers.
A 35 point unit of stalker maruders with 2x sniper rifles and bolt gun is a great and cheap way to control enemy buff characters by forcing them to sit back or get picked off.
3. Inspiring presence commander.
Having a commander with the inspiring presence warlord trait next to some command squads with vox casters and militia with vox casters. The warlord buffs the ld of the command squads and all the milita that use their ld thanks to their own vox casters. Prviously i would say that msu cultists where better since msu does not have the same ld strains and cultists do have better wsbs but now with cultists going up to 5ppm militia will be an option.
4. Deamon cp battery.
Renegades and heretics can make the cheapest cp battery in the game (the only thing we are best at). This is helpful for deamonic allies or vise vera. Not only that but units like horticulius slimax can use the deaths of the militia to heal himself or other units. Nurgle deamon are great allies as they are good at holding units back while our big guns blast them and nurglings help hold them back while the rest of army moves up or fires.
5. Diciple and command squad big guns
They are ws and bs 3 and great for big guns like lascannons.
Covents
Khrone helpful for melee armies. Our troops can take melee weapons so its helpful.
Tzench fir gun lines. Overwatch as accurate as normal shooting troops.
Slannesh is good for anything. Kiting or getting close fast.
Nurgle very crappy only useful against power swords and death watch.
I belive there should also be a guide on units, as in how to use them correctly with the right list setup, Militia are such a case:
Militia, surprise surprise, like all R&H units need morale managment tools but are the best at having access to these that are not Enforcers:
Basically 10-20 dudes which can take the Chaos Sigil and the Vox will make a fairly reliable unit if there are commad Squads around, preferably 2 or more, to profit from the higher morale.
Gear should be focusing on volume of fire above all else: Special Weapons can be taken but of these Greanade Launchers are with flamers the best choice since they significantly improve the ammount of dakka and therefore hits. Heavy Weapons should either be mortars or heavy stubbers. Both are a steal for what they over and in case of the mortar can allready be considered as an meatier HWT squad.
Mutant Rabble: 10-50 dudes, with a random d6 effect , which ranges from more movement (meh) to T4 (great) to a random ammount of losses (wellp). Can't take brutal melee weapons, however can take shotguns. Have no morale managment tools like Voxes or Chaos sigils ergo that means they will need an enforcer for support. Champion also doesn't get better BS unlike the militia champion. Makes for a decent beatstick squad though if supported by a Psyker coven which casts unnatural vigour. other then that give them Las-/Autoguns and a enforcer and tarpit the enemy. (Covenant of Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh can do the most if you are Proactive and don't mind some melee)
R&H Cultists. Basically the regular cultists but with no stratagems 10-30, can take a chaos sigil but no vox, making them again a candidate for either MSU with nothing or an enforcer to keep em in line.
Elites:
Marauders, basically your jack of all trades unit: Melee, Sniping, assult, One hit wonder, all in there: Get's "In it for the money" makes them basically invincible to morale of any kind since they don't make morale checks, just keep em away from enforcers, cuase they will shoot regardless. Only sniper unit.
Enforcer: 30pts therefore more expensive then the commander, will shoot squads (d3 auto losses) for an automatically passed morale check, logical conclusion you want to blob, these people can keep 1-2 squads in line. thankfully got the character keyword after 2 faq's....
Still solves morale issues forever, might make you issues, just keep em away from elites or covens.
Disciples: Come in two flavours 4-14 for command squads and 5-15 for regular disciples. Difference beeing some equipment (Command Vox, banners) uses is similar, basically a better IG veteran for 6 pts (ws and bs 3+) Command squads also have no leader therefore the 4-14 number.
Command squads can keep militia armies covered, since they tanks to fanatic roll 2d6+3 for their LD which they can spread with their command vox. Command disciples are also good for melee defence especially if they get the one banner that allows losses to fight back with one attack during the melee phase.
Disciple squads themselves naturally get through their higher bs often the heavy weapons. (lascannons) their squad size also makes them into a surprisngly sturdy mainline.
Ogryn berzerkes: ALWAYS UPGRADE FOR A BERSERKER CHAMPION WITH POWER DRILL. No seriously why didn't you? At 30 pts a steal, a purely melee unit but sturdy and with the right transport a huge danger for the enemy. Allready pointed out above, however you also can just fly 19.9 inches and don't play risk for the grav insertion.
Rogue Psyker coven: Basically Smite plus 1 psychic power that is cast by a unit of 5 dudes. can sacrifice some W in order to use 3d6 for psychich test. Most often used for Unnatural vigour ofcourse. No weapons and no save throw beyond 5++ makes them squishy.
Malefic lord 1 dude with posession, (if possesed he becomes a melee monster) got a nerf after the start of 8th but at 80 pts and one of the only other HQ choices there isn't really much to bypass him after you picked all 3 commanders.
Commander: 25 pts IGHQ, Fanatic, if warolrd grants covenant, which were allready specified above. Can take power weapons and has a decentish profile, making him actually not to bad for melee. No traits beyond the BRB ones. which the +1 ld aura is probably best for a army that actively has morale problems thanks to random leadership.
Chaos spawn: it's spawn nothing more nothing less, still a good unit and a cheap brigade filler.
Problem with moving the valk below 20 is that you will have to wait until next turn to deploy and the valk will lose alot of your valk buffs including the -1 to hit.
Problem with moving the valk below 20 is that you will have to wait until next turn to deploy and the valk will lose alot of your valk buffs including the -1 to hit.
Actually, i reccomend you re-read the Grav insertion.
It states that at ANY moment of it's movement passanger can deploy out of it, ofcourse in the more then 9" away from enemies.
OVER 20" you need to roll a d6 for every model that jumps.
You lose absolutely nothing by just deploying the valk from the start and fly your 20" andthen deploy without the risk.
Problem with moving the valk below 20 is that you will have to wait until next turn to deploy and the valk will lose alot of your valk buffs including the -1 to hit.
Actually, i reccomend you re-read the Grav insertion.
It states that at ANY moment of it's movement passanger can deploy out of it, ofcourse in the more then 9" away from enemies.
OVER 20" you need to roll a d6 for every model that jumps.
You lose absolutely nothing by just deploying the valk from the start and fly your 20" andthen deploy without the risk.
Its movement is 20- 45" meaning it has to Move atleast 20" and up to 45".
The only way to move less than 20" is to use hover jets which means you lose supersonic, airborne and hard to hit.
ulfhednir86 wrote: For an first turn alpha strike you need to move up then grav chut at risk but with orgyns at most you need to Roll is 4d6 and cp re roll a 1
Have people tried this out yet ? Always wanted a valkyrie...
Excommunicatus wrote: I would just make it so that CP can only be 'spent' by the Faction that generated them, so my Daemons wouldn't be able to use any of the 10CP my two R&H Battalions generate as an example.
People like me will still take R&H/AM Battalions because fluff über alles (with an umlaut, Not Online!!) but it utterly kills the soup problem in competitive play whereby a handful of Guardsmen make Custodes fight better, like they're trying to impress the Guard or something.
We are already there with Daemons FAQ forcing them to only use strats on their own faction. I could see this as a beta rule with the next chapter approved.
I'd go much further than the Daemon FAQ, though. For example, my usual R&H contingent is the famed dual-Battalion. I'd make it so that the 10CP my R&H generate can only be used on R&H Stratagems, the 6CP my Daemons generate can only be used on Daemon Stratagems and the 'free' 3CP can be used by anyone.
ulfhednir86 wrote: For an first turn alpha strike you need to move up then grav chut at risk but with orgyns at most you need to Roll is 4d6 and cp re roll a 1
Have people tried this out yet ? Always wanted a valkyrie...
T1 throwing ogryns at faces is fairly reliable and quite good on the damage scale, however mind screens, so potentially holding the unit in reserve is a good idea until you broke the screens. It's however the only thing we have going for us beyond reasonably priced veterans (disciples) and marauders.
Always however upgrade one ogryn to a Berserker Champion since he gets the Drill which Hits home massively.
I'd go much further than the Daemon FAQ, though. For example, my usual R&H contingent is the famed dual-Battalion. I'd make it so that the 10CP my R&H generate can only be used on R&H Stratagems, the 6CP my Daemons generate can only be used on Daemon Stratagems and the 'free' 3CP can be used by anyone.
Point in case if we ever going to get stratagems. So long we don't get them i don't think we should not be able to give over cp.
At this stage i have not high hopes for us getting stratagems, but if guardsmen and Cultists of csm go to 5ppm our militia suddenly got pricewise balanced, making us actually somewhat appealing?
ulfhednir86 wrote: For an first turn alpha strike you need to move up then grav chut at risk but with orgyns at most you need to Roll is 4d6 and cp re roll a 1
Have people tried this out yet ? Always wanted a valkyrie...
T1 throwing ogryns at faces is fairly reliable and quite good on the damage scale, however mind screens, so potentially holding the unit in reserve is a good idea until you broke the screens. It's however the only thing we have going for us beyond reasonably priced veterans (disciples) and marauders.
Always however upgrade one ogryn to a Berserker Champion since he gets the Drill which Hits home massively.
I'd go much further than the Daemon FAQ, though. For example, my usual R&H contingent is the famed dual-Battalion. I'd make it so that the 10CP my R&H generate can only be used on R&H Stratagems, the 6CP my Daemons generate can only be used on Daemon Stratagems and the 'free' 3CP can be used by anyone.
Point in case if we ever going to get stratagems. So long we don't get them i don't think we should not be able to give over cp.
At this stage i have not high hopes for us getting stratagems, but if guardsmen and Cultists of csm go to 5ppm our militia suddenly got pricewise balanced, making us actually somewhat appealing?
Yep. If they both go to 5ppm, I'm dragging back out my RnH army. Time to be relevant... if only our covenants were decent.
Yep. If they both go to 5ppm, I'm dragging back out my RnH army. Time to be relevant... if only our covenants were decent.
I got quite the mileage out of Khorne, s4 compensates quite well for ws 5+, not to mention that aswell as the one banner, ws is the other thing we can buff (Rogue Psyker covens can reliably cast Unnatural vigour) . Not to mention that disciples and especially marauders are good to great in melee too.
Other then khorne, tzeentch is the gunline option but noone is charging a r&h gunline anyways since, well mostly because you can fairly easily out shoot us.
Nurgle is to specific and Slaanesh might get charges off easier but in melee sucks soooooo. Yeah not really much in terms of usefull covenants.
Excommunicatus wrote: I would just make it so that CP can only be 'spent' by the Faction that generated them, so my Daemons wouldn't be able to use any of the 10CP my two R&H Battalions generate as an example.
People like me will still take R&H/AM Battalions because fluff über alles (with an umlaut, Not Online!!) but it utterly kills the soup problem in competitive play whereby a handful of Guardsmen make Custodes fight better, like they're trying to impress the Guard or something.
We are already there with Daemons FAQ forcing them to only use strats on their own faction. I could see this as a beta rule with the next chapter approved.
Actually there are deamon stratagems.that specifcally get used on ither units like the 2 for summoning deamons and the one to hurt enemies that perals of the warp
ulfhednir86 wrote: For an first turn alpha strike you need to move up then grav chut at risk but with orgyns at most you need to Roll is 4d6 and cp re roll a 1
Have people tried this out yet ? Always wanted a valkyrie...
Yep. If they both go to 5ppm, I'm dragging back out my RnH army. Time to be relevant... if only our covenants were decent.
I got quite the mileage out of Khorne, s4 compensates quite well for ws 5+, not to mention that aswell as the one banner, ws is the other thing we can buff (Rogue Psyker covens can reliably cast Unnatural vigour) . Not to mention that disciples and especially marauders are good to great in melee too.
Other then khorne, tzeentch is the gunline option but noone is charging a r&h gunline anyways since, well mostly because you can fairly easily out shoot us.
Nurgle is to specific and Slaanesh might get charges off easier but in melee sucks soooooo. Yeah not really much in terms of usefull covenants.
Slannesh is good for gunline as well. You can use it to stay away from enemies or quickly take unoccupied objectives then. Gap it
This is just a speculation but theoretically you can field a ludicrous amont of body to submerge the opponent and control the board. I think that with an objective battle no one has sufficient firepower to dislodge you.
you can field two battalions and the final unit cont, in 2000 points it's:
4 renegade commanders.
8x 50 mutant rabble
1x 30 mutant rabble
6 x enforcers
There are 430 bodies (and 430 flshlights shots ), I don't think that someone can table you, except maybe for some ad hoc tau list.
I would like to try this experiment but my vraks heretics are 180 soldiers and 120 zombies, I need more miniatures!
This is just a speculation but theoretically you can field a ludicrous amont of body to submerge the opponent and control the board. I think that with an objective battle no one has sufficient firepower to dislodge you.
you can field two battalions and the final unit cont, in 2000 points it's:
4 renegade commanders.
8x 50 mutant rabble
1x 30 mutant rabble
6 x enforcers
There are 430 bodies (and 430 flshlights shots ), I don't think that someone can table you, except maybe for some ad hoc tau list.
I would like to try this experiment but my vraks heretics are 180 soldiers and 120 zombies, I need more miniatures!
2 problems: A enforcers are 1 per slot and are therfore limited thanks to the rule of three to three, ergo you will not have enough of them. Same with the commanders, you would need a coven or a malefic for the last HQ slot. (Coven is better since unnatural vigour actually makes mutant good in melee)
Secondly, Since you will not have enough enforcers and mutants have no other morale boost possibility (lack of vox and Chaossigil) this means you will have an average of a 5,5 in ld. Now t3 and sv6+ is not durable and the morale problems you will get from that will disintegrate any mutant blob there is through normal lasgun fire.
Then there is the whole problem of us lacking some aura boni charachters, which are very much needed for such a wave tactic.(mainly Abbadon the (H)armless)
not to mention that the board becomes a serious issue for us in such a deployment and then there is the lack of anti knight meassures.
But yes, R&H mass assult get's more enticing, if cultists and guardsmen get nerfed, making us actually a niche. I also suspect that our cultists won't get nerfed, since we neither get good covens /traits and have random LD on them too, so potentially a mass cultists R&H list now works, heck even militia will benefit indirectly and with a vox they still are 15pts per 20 man blob cheaper then their IG counterpart.
This is just a speculation but theoretically you can field a ludicrous amont of body to submerge the opponent and control the board. I think that with an objective battle no one has sufficient firepower to dislodge you.
you can field two battalions and the final unit cont, in 2000 points it's:
4 renegade commanders.
8x 50 mutant rabble
1x 30 mutant rabble
6 x enforcers
There are 430 bodies (and 430 flshlights shots ), I don't think that someone can table you, except maybe for some ad hoc tau list.
I would like to try this experiment but my vraks heretics are 180 soldiers and 120 zombies, I need more miniatures!
2 problems: A enforcers are 1 per slot and are therfore limited thanks to the rule of three to three, ergo you will not have enough of them. Same with the commanders, you would need a coven or a malefic for the last HQ slot. (Coven is better since unnatural vigour actually makes mutant good in melee)
Secondly, Since you will not have enough enforcers and mutants have no other morale boost possibility (lack of vox and Chaossigil) this means you will have an average of a 5,5 in ld. Now t3 and sv6+ is not durable and the morale problems you will get from that will disintegrate any mutant blob there is through normal lasgun fire.
Then there is the whole problem of us lacking some aura boni charachters, which are very much needed for such a wave tactic.(mainly Abbadon the (H)armless)
not to mention that the board becomes a serious issue for us in such a deployment and then there is the lack of anti knight meassures.
But yes, R&H mass assult get's more enticing, if cultists and guardsmen get nerfed, making us actually a niche. I also suspect that our cultists won't get nerfed, since we neither get good covens /traits and have random LD on them too, so potentially a mass cultists R&H list now works, heck even militia will benefit indirectly and with a vox they still are 15pts per 20 man blob cheaper then their IG counterpart.
I know, it was just an abstract.
To be more realistic you can field a cheap brigade ( 3x commander, x4 50 mutant rubble, x3 mitilia squad, x3 enforcer x3 spawns, x 3 mortar squads ) for 1130 points, witch I dopn't think it's worth their 12 CP..
I think that the battalion it's more viable , with 740 points ( 2x commander, 3x50 mutant rabble, 3x enforcer) which it will be more useful than the minimum battalion of Iron Warriors, to make the cultist immune to morale (1xlord 1x exalted champ 3x 40 cultist ) which will be raised to 5 points per cultist, so 744 points and the the compulsory warlord trait,
The Abbadon one cost 840 with the new cost.
To be more realistic you can field a cheap brigade ( 3x commander, x4 50 mutant rubble, x3 mitilia squad, x3 enforcer x3 spawns, x 3 mortar squads ) for 1130 points, witch I dopn't think it's worth their 12 CP.. I think that the battalion it's more viable , with 740 points ( 2x commander, 3x50 mutant rabble, 3x enforcer) which it will be more useful than the minimum battalion of Iron Warriors, to make the cultist immune to morale (1xlord 1x exalted champ 3x 40 cultist ) which will be raised to 5 points per cultist, so 744 points and the the compulsory warlord trait, The Abbadon one cost 840 with the new cost.
Actually you can get a better Brigade imo if you go with
3 commanders (75pts)
Elites 3 Command squads (4 disciples each) with commandvox (3 x34 = 102) (maybee add in some mortars or AThwt's
Troops: 6 x 20 militia with vox (6 x 85 =510 pts) (mortars or stubbers if pts free)
Assult: 3 x 1 Chaos spawn (33 x 3 = 99)
Heavy support
3 x 6 mortar teams (48 x 3 = 144 )
Total: 930 Pts.
Considering you get 120 militia members with an average LD of 9 aswell as 12 disciples which also can work as AT aswell as 18 mortars it get's you a solid body. Even if you just allow for just 1000 pts, you can easily fit in more Heavy weapons as you see fit, making the list actually fairly enticing to run. for the 70 pts you can equip all your militia squads with 2 mortars, and have left 10 pts still which you can further invest. Technically you could also equip everything on this list with heavy stubbers, which ofcourse saves points, for heavier equipment.
As for your suggested battalion, honestly split away the enforcers in a seperate detachment since you run huge mutant blobs, i suggest you either get a coven for unnatural vigour or a command squad with a flag in order to boost their melee capability.
Howdy all,
I'm looking at adding some chaos (nurgle) marine allies to my (nurgle) renegades army (so I can have some units that aren't a pack of sniveling diseased cowards).
I'm torn between just ordinary chaos marines, but nurgle themed (I first dreamt this army up in 7th, and honestly haven't had the experience to say that I know anything substantial about the new Death Guard stuff) or gunning it and diving into the new Death Guard lineup.
My renegades list (as yet to see action ) is roughly as follows, though I'm feeling pretty flexible
Basilisk with Heavy Flamer
Rogue Psyker Coven
3x Mortars
2x Autocannons
Heavy stubber (probably gonna affix this to an infantry squad)
about 35 infantry (still weighing up what to run these boyos as)
a champion type dude with a plasma pistol and chainsword. (could easy do a command squad)
Thanks for your help!
For a bit of background with the nurgle marines, I've bought the vanilla chaos marine box and the new death guard troops. I've got some terminators and warp talons too - I'm a little put off the newer death guard models, so other than my plague marine kit, everything is from the regular range.
I was thinking of trying to just use them as a platform to spam plasma/melta, and have a bit of a hammer to the anvil of renegade infantry masses. I'm not super fussed about being megadeathstarwaac, but if anyone knows of any tasty little killy units to keep my games interesting, I'd be all ears!
Thanks very much guys!
So for all that did not see the new CA pts.
Cultists went up, some nice stuff went down. (gl for 3 pts, heavy stubber for 2!!!, Chimeras are now way cheaper, sentinels with ml cost 35/40 a piece now, hydras went down,plasma went down, Leman russ variants went down, heck demolishers and exterminator autocannons are now 20/17ppm so actually they are now an alternative to the basic leman russ!!)
@posermcbogus
First off: welcome back
Secondly: Do you want a structureized army or more along the line of a, well trenchline with enforcer backup?
Ogryn Berserker Darts would be something that you should consider (Valkirye with berserkers and champ inside)
Good old militia now is the possible cheapest option and got some nice dakka options, especially since Heavy stubbers now only cost 2 pts. Add in voxes and Chaos sigils if you field 20 man militia mobs, and cover them with some command squads with command voxes and you get a fairly durable mainline.
Ofcourse there is the 50 man + 1 enforcer combo, probably our toughest mainline unit. Does however not get much for special and heavy weaponry.
3x mortars are pitifull, if you want a proper anvil to castle you need enough fire support, so stock up on em. (the more the merier)
Consider offensive units, or sacrifice units, basically not every militia squad needs more pts invested then a vox and just thrown at the enemy in order to stop an advance.
A hammer based upon CSM is fairly usefull, not to mention that they do things good which R&H struggle, hint durability can also be increased by giving them the AL trait, Zombie marines / marine ghosts that are harder to hit, why not. (bonus pts for plague marines with -1 to hit)
The coven would be able to support a 50 man blob for melee with unnatural vigour, side note it is the best psy denial unit in the game, except it's pricetag.
I'd reccomend you fill 2 battalions, as cheap as possible with your R&H and than add in your CSM hammer and fill the rest up to your liking.
-------------------
Oh and i nearly forgot: A new old follower of the Lost and the damned is always welcome.
Edit: Side note, cultists are now 5ppm even for us, and we got the shiete ones compared to CSM cultists, so maybee refrain from using them......
Not Online!!! wrote: Do you want a structureized army or more along the line of a, well trenchline with enforcer backup?
TRENCHLINE!TRENCHLINE!TRENCHLINE!TRENCHLINE!
Not Online!!! wrote: Ogryn Berserker Darts would be something that you should consider (Valkirye with berserkers and champ inside)
Might consider this in the future, plaguing up the fantasy ogres is something I might try to do in the future. What are people's thoughts on deep-striking in a bunch of termies to do a similar (albeit more expensive) job? Was thinking of giving them combi-plasma just to have a versatile little assassination unit.
For loadouts on the raptors, what is the common go-to? I feel like the answer is plasma, because it's 8th ed. and the answer is always plasma.
Not Online!!! wrote: Good old militia now is the possible cheapest option and got some nice dakka options, especially since Heavy stubbers now only cost 2 pts. Add in voxes and Chaos sigils if you field 20 man militia mobs, and cover them with some command squads with command voxes and you get a fairly durable mainline.
Ofcourse there is the 50 man + 1 enforcer combo, probably our toughest mainline unit. Does however not get much for special and heavy weaponry.
Sounds like militia it is! I might experiment with the 50 man blob at some point, though I sure don't have the minis for it right now.
Not Online!!! wrote: 3x mortars are pitifull, if you want a proper anvil to castle you need enough fire support, so stock up on em. (the more the merier)
Duly noted, sir!
Not Online!!! wrote: Consider offensive units, or sacrifice units, basically not every militia squad needs more pts invested then a vox and just thrown at the enemy in order to stop an advance.
Other than ogryns, what do ya have in mind? my militia/blob have a mix of autoguns/ autopistols + brutal assault weapons, could the latter work at least as a sacrifice unit? I was mostly planning on running them all as autoguns, and passing the mix off as just disorganization and lack of uniformity amongst their fetid ranks.
Cheers for the help!
Other than ogryns, what do ya have in mind? my militia/blob have a mix of autoguns/ autopistols + brutal assault weapons, could the latter work at least as a sacrifice unit? I was mostly planning on running them all as autoguns, and passing the mix off as just disorganization and lack of uniformity amongst their fetid ranks. Cheers for the help!
Generally i would not mix the squads in their main weapon department, however Ulfhendir has had some decent sucess with throwing melee milita at the enemy in order to stop their advance and get some breathing room for your mainline.
Actually i am fairly certain that you can just take a 50 man blob with a enforcer to get the same result but on a broader part of the frontline, so maybee make that. Granted it is a 230ppm tarpit but atleast it is an annoying as all hell tarpit. (especially when you get the t4 result)
You can also consider summoning Daemons, They are decently cheap and our HQ don't need to move, so why not?
Marauders also can make a fairly annoying offensive unit, considering they nearly always need to be wiped since "in it for the money" makes them really tough, especially in melee against non specialized units.
(hint disorganization can also be achieved by combining autoguns aswell as lasguns in a squad)
Grenade Launchers went down to 3, Flamers went down to 6. The base cost of a Chimera dropped 20pts and the Hydra dropped a little. Sentinels dropped 10pts.
Heavy Stubbers went down to 2pts, which is pretty huge.
Excommunicatus wrote: Grenade Launchers went down to 3, Flamers went down to 6. The base cost of a Chimera dropped 20pts and the Hydra dropped a little. Sentinels dropped 10pts.
Heavy Stubbers went down to 2pts, which is pretty huge.
hmmmmMMMMMMM
So, I'm thinking:
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
Is gonna be pretty much an auto-include for me now. Just gotta model it all.
Excommunicatus wrote: Grenade Launchers went down to 3, Flamers went down to 6. The base cost of a Chimera dropped 20pts and the Hydra dropped a little. Sentinels dropped 10pts.
Heavy Stubbers went down to 2pts, which is pretty huge.
hmmmmMMMMMMM
So, I'm thinking:
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
6 Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, 6 Heavy Stubbers - 30p
Is gonna be pretty much an auto-include for me now. Just gotta model it all.
Valkyires also dropped, on the rocket pods and on their price Tag.
Certain leman russ variants also got cheaper through their gun
This is just a speculation but theoretically you can field a ludicrous amont of body to submerge the opponent and control the board. I think that with an objective battle no one has sufficient firepower to dislodge you.
you can field two battalions and the final unit cont, in 2000 points it's:
4 renegade commanders.
8x 50 mutant rabble
1x 30 mutant rabble
6 x enforcers
There are 430 bodies (and 430 flshlights shots ), I don't think that someone can table you, except maybe for some ad hoc tau list.
I would like to try this experiment but my vraks heretics are 180 soldiers and 120 zombies, I need more miniatures!
I have got 360 model ork list nearly tabled by dark eldars in 5 turns. Also on more practical issue despite fairly light terrain I pretty much crammed my DZ so would have needed to ditch movement trays to cram more models which would make moving models paaaaaaain.
ph34r wrote: That's only 500 points??? Damn that's the real stuff right there.
you called , i delivered. had some minor faults in the list and fixed it.
Immo, it seems as if we are now the best army for a ww1 style gunline. I would imagine that running a covenant of tzeentch in there would make this a nice all comers list.
40 militia bodies, for soaking bullets.
18 HWT's with stubbers are basically another 36 dudes.
30 Disciples spread on msu, (6 stubbers that hit 2/3rds of the time)
two commanders.
that is in essence 108 modells, on 500 pts, with a lot of dakka. Heck the 22 militia lmg's guarantee 22 hits per shooting phase, that is a surprising amount of dakka. not to mention that they also can fire their lasguns/autoguns/ 19th century musket, whenever they are in range. All vehicles that are t7 you wound on 5's so stubbing down a thing or two is actually possible. If they charge you, you get a free shooting phase before that in addition.
This is just a speculation but theoretically you can field a ludicrous amont of body to submerge the opponent and control the board. I think that with an objective battle no one has sufficient firepower to dislodge you. you can field two battalions and the final unit cont, in 2000 points it's: 4 renegade commanders. 8x 50 mutant rabble 1x 30 mutant rabble 6 x enforcers
There are 430 bodies (and 430 flshlights shots ), I don't think that someone can table you, except maybe for some ad hoc tau list.
I would like to try this experiment but my vraks heretics are 180 soldiers and 120 zombies, I need more miniatures!
I have got 360 model ork list nearly tabled by dark eldars in 5 turns.
wellp. but this is (the) R&H ............. thread.
jokes aside, DE are highly questionable in their anti-horde capacity anyways.
My list plans for eighteen HWTs, currently with Mortars. That's 18D6 S4 shots for 144pts, which on average is 63 shots and 21 hits (and potentially as low as 18/6 or a high as 108/36). Eighteen HWTs with HS put out 54 S4 shots, averaging eighteen hits and cost 90pts.
So the expected offensive output per cost is pretty comparable. HS are cheaper; but won't hit as much. Of course this is somewhat of a false comparison 'cause for those 54pts you could take a ten-strong Militia Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Flamer, or some other thing to improve your dakka/strategic situation more than three extra hits with a Mortar will.
I'm going to stick with Mortars on my HWTs and slap Heavy Stubbers on all my tanks, 'cause none of them move and they all have BS4+.
Excommunicatus wrote: My list plans for eighteen HWTs, currently with Mortars. That's 18D6 S4 shots for 144pts, which on average is 63 shots and 21 hits (and potentially as low as 18/6 or a high as 108/36). Eighteen HWTs with HS put out 54 S4 shots, averaging eighteen hits and cost 90pts.
So the expected offensive output per cost is pretty comparable. HS are cheaper; but won't hit as much. Of course this is somewhat of a false comparison 'cause for those 54pts you could take a ten-strong Militia Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Flamer, or some other thing to improve your dakka/strategic situation more than three extra hits with a Mortar will.
I'm going to stick with Mortars on my HWTs and slap Heavy Stubbers on all my tanks, 'cause none of them move and they all have BS4+.
This works aswell but why take a flamer when you can take two nade launchers?
Actually another thought occured to me, for 75pts you get a Chimera with a ML, Hb, and a Heavy Stubber.
For 525 pts (7 chimeras) you could fully mechanize the list above, now add the remaining pts in AT of your choice and that would actually be possibly a good base army.
jokes aside, DE are highly questionable in their anti-horde capacity anyways.
Yes but are the R&H troops much more resilient than the orks? The DE averaged tad over 60 models per turn. After having super ice cold dices in 1st turn(12 dark lances failed to take down 4 KMK's, only managing to take down 2, and all the rest took down like 8 boyz...). Doesn't feel that bad.
Excommunicatus wrote: My list plans for eighteen HWTs, currently with Mortars. That's 18D6 S4 shots for 144pts, which on average is 63 shots and 21 hits (and potentially as low as 18/6 or a high as 108/36). Eighteen HWTs with HS put out 54 S4 shots, averaging eighteen hits and cost 90pts.
So the expected offensive output per cost is pretty comparable. HS are cheaper; but won't hit as much. Of course this is somewhat of a false comparison 'cause for those 54pts you could take a ten-strong Militia Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Flamer, or some other thing to improve your dakka/strategic situation more than three extra hits with a Mortar will.
I'm going to stick with Mortars on my HWTs and slap Heavy Stubbers on all my tanks, 'cause none of them move and they all have BS4+.
This works aswell but why take a flamer when you can take two nade launchers?
Yeah, that's a good point. My dudes have Flamers 'cause their original job was to absorb charges.
jokes aside, DE are highly questionable in their anti-horde capacity anyways.
Yes but are the R&H troops much more resilient than the orks? The DE averaged tad over 60 models per turn. After having super ice cold dices in 1st turn(12 dark lances failed to take down 4 KMK's, only managing to take down 2, and all the rest took down like 8 boyz...). Doesn't feel that bad.
The first part was a meme, along the lines off: "THIS IS SPARTA" (get it? Because it is hard to play R&H)
R&H are not more resilient, probably, they are guardsment with sv6+ on average, sooooooo. the only saving grace is compared to orkz that we get 1 and 3/4 militia/ mutant dude per Ork boy.
Morale is a non issue if you follow these golden rules MSU or if not Enforcer behind blob squad. (except 20 man militia blob, they require vox lines for propaganda to hold the line)
Excommunicatus wrote: My list plans for eighteen HWTs, currently with Mortars. That's 18D6 S4 shots for 144pts, which on average is 63 shots and 21 hits (and potentially as low as 18/6 or a high as 108/36). Eighteen HWTs with HS put out 54 S4 shots, averaging eighteen hits and cost 90pts.
So the expected offensive output per cost is pretty comparable. HS are cheaper; but won't hit as much. Of course this is somewhat of a false comparison 'cause for those 54pts you could take a ten-strong Militia Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Flamer, or some other thing to improve your dakka/strategic situation more than three extra hits with a Mortar will.
I'm going to stick with Mortars on my HWTs and slap Heavy Stubbers on all my tanks, 'cause none of them move and they all have BS4+.
This works aswell but why take a flamer when you can take two nade launchers?
Yeah, that's a good point. My dudes have Flamers 'cause their original job was to absorb charges.
(shhh, 20 man blobs with 4 flamers and a vox now actually might be a decent offensive unit)
ph34r wrote: Well, our troops are only worse if you used cultists :')
And actually, 10 cultists with stubber before was 45. Now it is 52, only 7 points more rather than a full 10.
Im thinking 10 militia with 2 flamers and a vox for 57 if you do the inspiring commander with vox command squads they will be alot braver or 52points without a vox for the same.points as the cultists but more damaging . they will be great take and hold troops. also with acceptible casualties its better to throw troops at objectives
ph34r wrote: Well, our troops are only worse if you used cultists :')
And actually, 10 cultists with stubber before was 45. Now it is 52, only 7 points more rather than a full 10.
Im thinking 10 militia with 2 flamers and a vox for 57 if you do the inspiring commander with vox command squads they will be alot braver or 52points without a vox for the same.points as the cultists but more damaging . they will be great take and hold troops. also with acceptible casualties its better to throw troops at objectives
Voxes only get their pts back if you have big enough squadsizes, somewhere above 15 militia men are needed though.
ph34r wrote: Well, our troops are only worse if you used cultists :')
And actually, 10 cultists with stubber before was 45. Now it is 52, only 7 points more rather than a full 10.
Im thinking 10 militia with 2 flamers and a vox for 57 if you do the inspiring commander with vox command squads they will be alot braver or 52points without a vox for the same.points as the cultists but more damaging . they will be great take and hold troops. also with acceptible casualties its better to throw troops at objectives
Voxes only get their pts back if you have big enough squadsizes, somewhere above 15 militia men are needed though.
I also think that.now missile launchers are worth taking and will be swaping my.lazcannons out for them. will also look.more low tech uprisingy
on average militia ld is only 5.5 without a vox meaning typically after losing 2 militia we will lose more and preventing 2 dfrom running away it pays for itself
Excommunicatus wrote: Five of my seven Militia squads have Vox-Casters and I wouldn't consider removing them.
For only 35pts (inc. the Command Net Vox) they stiffen my line considerably.
How do you get the 35pts?
A command vox 5 man command squad costs 40pts.
A militia 10 vox squad 45pts?
But true if the vox saves two dudes it pays for itself.
@ulfhendrir: missile launchers certainly are worth it, did a recent match with some of them on my disciples, they are really flexible.
Even nade launchers did well on militia in that match.
Granted it was a friendly unoptimized standoff with a friend.
Melee militia/cultists with flamers and vox
ranged militia with twin grenade launchers and vox
command squad with autocannons and vox
disiples with missile launchers
maruders with sniper rifles and stalkers.
Valkyrie with renegade ogryns
and tanks
ulfhednir86 wrote: Melee militia/cultists with flamers and vox
ranged militia with twin grenade launchers and vox
command squad with autocannons and vox
disiples with missile launchers
maruders with sniper rifles and stalkers.
Valkyrie with renegade ogryns
and tanks
thoughts?
HWT's with stubbers are also an option for ranged militia and the mortars are also still a sound option.
Autocannons and missile launchers are indeed reserved for our elites.
Marauders can still do anything, from PG sacrifical unit, to mainlaine, to sniper teams. (Basically they are our all in one solution)
Tanks:
Leman Russes: Well since the pricedrop on any non bc leman russ, making some variants actually decent and worth a thought (especially the exterminator autocannon)
Hydras dropped massively, might aswell stock up now on them aswell.
Chimeras: well the standard ML /HB version dropped 20 pts. Autocannons also dropped 5 pts. Potentially now very decent allround tank and transport vehicle.
Sentinels: Also dropped in price, fairly decent. not to mention that since alot of heavy weapons dropped in price now a fairly decent choice.
Basilisks: (still cheaper then Earthshakers, for whatever reason. ......)
ulfhednir86 wrote: Melee militia/cultists with flamers and vox
ranged militia with twin grenade launchers and vox
command squad with autocannons and vox
disiples with missile launchers
maruders with sniper rifles and stalkers.
Valkyrie with renegade ogryns
and tanks
thoughts?
HWT's with stubbers are also an option for ranged militia and the mortars are also still a sound option.
Autocannons and missile launchers are indeed reserved for our elites.
Marauders can still do anything, from PG sacrifical unit, to mainlaine, to sniper teams. (Basically they are our all in one solution)
Tanks:
Leman Russes: Well since the pricedrop on any non bc leman russ, making some variants actually decent and worth a thought (especially the exterminator autocannon)
Hydras dropped massively, might aswell stock up now on them aswell.
Chimeras: well the standard ML /HB version dropped 20 pts. Autocannons also dropped 5 pts. Potentially now very decent allround tank and transport vehicle.
Sentinels: Also dropped in price, fairly decent. not to mention that since alot of heavy weapons dropped in price now a fairly decent choice.
Basilisks: (still cheaper then Earthshakers, for whatever reason. ......)
troops are for screening and taking objectives so need to be mobile. so no heavys for them.
maybe renegade hws units but not in troops.
chimeras are for moving troops up quickly then holding enemies back from the troops holding.objectives so twin flamers are best imho.
for fast attacks i like hellhounds or spawn for a brigade.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Melee militia/cultists with flamers and vox
ranged militia with twin grenade launchers and vox
command squad with autocannons and vox
disiples with missile launchers
maruders with sniper rifles and stalkers.
Valkyrie with renegade ogryns
and tanks
thoughts?
HWT's with stubbers are also an option for ranged militia and the mortars are also still a sound option.
Autocannons and missile launchers are indeed reserved for our elites.
Marauders can still do anything, from PG sacrifical unit, to mainlaine, to sniper teams. (Basically they are our all in one solution)
Tanks:
Leman Russes: Well since the pricedrop on any non bc leman russ, making some variants actually decent and worth a thought (especially the exterminator autocannon)
Hydras dropped massively, might aswell stock up now on them aswell.
Chimeras: well the standard ML /HB version dropped 20 pts. Autocannons also dropped 5 pts. Potentially now very decent allround tank and transport vehicle.
Sentinels: Also dropped in price, fairly decent. not to mention that since alot of heavy weapons dropped in price now a fairly decent choice.
Basilisks: (still cheaper then Earthshakers, for whatever reason. ......)
troops are for screening and taking objectives so need to be mobile. so no heavys for them.
maybe renegade hws units but not in troops.
chimeras are for moving troops up quickly then holding enemies back from the troops holding.objectives so twin flamers are best imho.
for fast attacks i like hellhounds or spawn for a brigade.
That vastly depends on what army you run, if you run them as a cheap cp battery and have pts left over there is no issue in takeing a 2 pts stubber.
Also if you run a gunline a 2pts stubber or mortar is good enough.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Melee militia/cultists with flamers and vox
ranged militia with twin grenade launchers and vox
command squad with autocannons and vox
disiples with missile launchers
maruders with sniper rifles and stalkers.
Valkyrie with renegade ogryns
and tanks
thoughts?
HWT's with stubbers are also an option for ranged militia and the mortars are also still a sound option.
Autocannons and missile launchers are indeed reserved for our elites.
Marauders can still do anything, from PG sacrifical unit, to mainlaine, to sniper teams. (Basically they are our all in one solution)
Tanks:
Leman Russes: Well since the pricedrop on any non bc leman russ, making some variants actually decent and worth a thought (especially the exterminator autocannon)
Hydras dropped massively, might aswell stock up now on them aswell.
Chimeras: well the standard ML /HB version dropped 20 pts. Autocannons also dropped 5 pts. Potentially now very decent allround tank and transport vehicle.
Sentinels: Also dropped in price, fairly decent. not to mention that since alot of heavy weapons dropped in price now a fairly decent choice.
Basilisks: (still cheaper then Earthshakers, for whatever reason. ......)
troops are for screening and taking objectives so need to be mobile. so no heavys for them.
maybe renegade hws units but not in troops.
chimeras are for moving troops up quickly then holding enemies back from the troops holding.objectives so twin flamers are best imho.
for fast attacks i like hellhounds or spawn for a brigade.
That vastly depends on what army you run, if you run them as a cheap cp battery and have pts left over there is no issue in takeing a 2 pts stubber.
Also if you run a gunline a 2pts stubber or mortar is good enough.
I love deamons or i would just run loyalists as traitors. but renegade knights are awesome.
also.with acceptable casualties athingand the low quality of fire we can throw static troops are a waste we need to get the objectives
ulfhednir86 wrote: Question What is better?
A. Leman Russ Battle tank
B. Leman Russ Demolisher
I do play aggressively, moving up and take objectives and if i get forced into defencives then demolisher im leaning towards
Good question. Ca will make demolishers cheaper but their d3 shots against targets under 10 modells make it kinda ehhh.
On the other hand, if you roll good it can delete enemy armor.
Then again the bc is just more reliable, even against small Elite targets.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Question What is better?
A. Leman Russ Battle tank
B. Leman Russ Demolisher
I do play aggressively, moving up and take objectives and if i get forced into defencives then demolisher im leaning towards
Good question. Ca will make demolishers cheaper but their d3 shots against targets under 10 modells make it kinda ehhh.
On the other hand, if you roll good it can delete enemy armor.
Then again the bc is just more reliable, even against small Elite targets.
yeah elites units would be an.issue.
I was thinging that its against a large squad for d6 or against a vehicle or large target which the shigher str, ap and damage.
That said bc has better range so will definately fire from the first turn and is cheaper.
Which is why the choice is hard for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Follow up.
With cultists going up in points but the vehicles coming down I'm wondering if their will be any change to my list at all?
I run them naked as msu anyway. milita are more viable now but need gear to make them useable and then they cost more anyway.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Question What is better?
A. Leman Russ Battle tank
B. Leman Russ Demolisher
I do play aggressively, moving up and take objectives and if i get forced into defencives then demolisher im leaning towards
Good question. Ca will make demolishers cheaper but their d3 shots against targets under 10 modells make it kinda ehhh.
On the other hand, if you roll good it can delete enemy armor.
Then again the bc is just more reliable, even against small Elite targets.
yeah elites units would be an.issue.
I was thinging that its against a large squad for d6 or against a vehicle or large target which the shigher str, ap and damage.
That said bc has better range so will definately fire from the first turn and is cheaper.
Which is why the choice is hard for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Follow up.
With cultists going up in points but the vehicles coming down I'm wondering if their will be any change to my list at all?
I run them naked as msu anyway. milita are more viable now but need gear to make them useable and then they cost more anyway.
Who says militia need equipment beyond the vox? Who says they need as msu a vox?
The recent pricedrop on equipment just makes militia itself more enticing since they get a good ammount of slots for it, but honestly a 10 man squad with vox or a 20 blob are just as durable as cultists.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Question What is better?
A. Leman Russ Battle tank
B. Leman Russ Demolisher
I do play aggressively, moving up and take objectives and if i get forced into defencives then demolisher im leaning towards
Good question. Ca will make demolishers cheaper but their d3 shots against targets under 10 modells make it kinda ehhh.
On the other hand, if you roll good it can delete enemy armor.
Then again the bc is just more reliable, even against small Elite targets.
yeah elites units would be an.issue.
I was thinging that its against a large squad for d6 or against a vehicle or large target which the shigher str, ap and damage.
That said bc has better range so will definately fire from the first turn and is cheaper.
Which is why the choice is hard for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Follow up.
With cultists going up in points but the vehicles coming down I'm wondering if their will be any change to my list at all?
I run them naked as msu anyway. milita are more viable now but need gear to make them useable and then they cost more anyway.
Who says militia need equipment beyond the vox? Who says they need as msu a vox?
The recent pricedrop on equipment just makes militia itself more enticing since they get a good ammount of slots for it, but honestly a 10 man squad with vox or a 20 blob are just as durable as cultists.
a vox makes them only 5 points cheaper than a squad of cultists which have better ws and bs. not saying militia are bad they are good with a vox and flamer fun.
we really need.the traitir guard for a decent troop tho
a 10 man objective graber militia squad, does not need a vox.
If the enemy shoots at them, so be it, they are wasting their shots.
If an enemy ignores them, well they can sit on a objective.
Side note.
Earthshaker battery maybe worth taking again
Down to 115 points so getting a basilisk then using the hull as a salamander and the cannon as a battery is still a possibility
a 10 man objective graber militia squad, does not need a vox.
If the enemy shoots at them, so be it, they are wasting their shots.
If an enemy ignores them, well they can sit on a objective.
Side note.
Earthshaker battery maybe worth taking again
Down to 115 points so getting a basilisk then using the hull as a salamander and the cannon as a battery is still a possibility
I mean you get guardsmen crew. so technically we have traitor guardsmen^^
i mean that is ok.
Personally the basilisk is still better since they are still tougher, but now earthshakers are atleast somewhat playable again. (i mean that is a huge leap forward in a army that atm is best desrcibed as nigh unplayable in a mono fashion)
Excommunicatus wrote: I don't understand why Earthshaker carriages cost more points than Basilisks.
I mean, aside form the whole "it's FW so [Expletive Deleted] you, that's why" aspect of it all.
because if there is something to abuse in any FW index TFG will use it and spam it (malefic lords f.e.) and it is easier to just cut it away / nerf it because those few of us that remain playing FW are irrelevant in the whole game population.
Excommunicatus wrote: I don't understand why Earthshaker carriages cost more points than Basilisks.
I mean, aside form the whole "it's FW so [Expletive Deleted] you, that's why" aspect of it all.
because if there is something to abuse in any FW index TFG will use it and spam it (malefic lords f.e.) and it is easier to just cut it away / nerf it because those few of us that remain playing FW are irrelevant in the whole game population.
Let's pray to the dark God's that we will get a gws updated list soon. Maybe that 80 day chaos update for vigilus will give some love
Excommunicatus wrote: I don't understand why Earthshaker carriages cost more points than Basilisks.
I mean, aside form the whole "it's FW so [Expletive Deleted] you, that's why" aspect of it all.
because if there is something to abuse in any FW index TFG will use it and spam it (malefic lords f.e.) and it is easier to just cut it away / nerf it because those few of us that remain playing FW are irrelevant in the whole game population.
Let's pray to the dark God's that we will get a gws updated list soon. Maybe that 80 day chaos update for vigilus will give some love
I wouldn't bet on it but then again maybee we get lucky?
Excommunicatus wrote: I don't understand why Earthshaker carriages cost more points than Basilisks.
I mean, aside form the whole "it's FW so [Expletive Deleted] you, that's why" aspect of it all.
because if there is something to abuse in any FW index TFG will use it and spam it (malefic lords f.e.) and it is easier to just cut it away / nerf it because those few of us that remain playing FW are irrelevant in the whole game population.
Let's pray to the dark God's that we will get a gws updated list soon. Maybe that 80 day chaos update for vigilus will give some love
I wouldn't bet on it but then again maybee we get lucky?
Crimson fists getting a supliment in white dwarf.
While not optimal we could see some love in here. I don't like to cart around multiple books for games but at least it's not paying for an entire supliment book and maybe get a poster in it as well would be soooooooo meta.
What I'm proposing (and hoping if gws is actually listening like they claim) is that they make a Astra militrum supliment that add a renegade and heretic regiment that changes imperium to chaos and can only be allied to chaos with the following additions.
1. The ability to choose a chaos God or undivided which adds the keyword and a unique warlord trait for each and regimental bonus (IE nurgle gets fnp 6+ or +1 toughness khorne gets +1 attack etc).
2. Swap any Lasguns for pistol and CC weapon.
3. Summon deamons.
4. A few unique units ie beastmen and rogue psychers from blackstone fortress.
5. So we don't get abused maybe at the start of the turn roll 2d6 and that is the moral for our army for the turn and/or since it's a regiment means we cannot take non regimental units like priests and commissionars which we can replace with enforcers but I guess we can still take index units maybe?
6. Relics like daemonic weapons which can replace Astra relics.
7. Stratagems to replace Astra ones maybe keep a few generic ones like take cover but a few unique ones for each God like nurgle get Revolting Regeneration (2CP): use at the end of your movement phase. A NURGLE unit regains d3 wounds or regains 1 slain model if none are wounded regained models are at 1 wound. Using <god> keyword means better synergy with other forces.
8. Also for balance guardsmen need to be increased to 5pts each but that should be a change in the overall codex not just us. It would also promote taking conscripts aka rabble over guardsmen and make us more than a cp battery.
If you like this idea please email them and blast the fb page until they listen and bring the main force of chaos back into the tabletop.
This could also be a template for mechanicus and dark mechanicus
Thoughts or ideas?
Tbf, let's wait for book two of vigilus, we might get surprised.
Guardsmen won't change upwards but militia getting random ld and worse armor would imo justify a 3ppm pricetag.
Are any of the Chaos (Astartes, Renegades, Daemons?) Lords of War or Flyers worth taking?
I'm trying to come up with a nice centerpiece model for my 2000p R&H, and I already have a knight as my "big unit" for my loyalists. I would kinda like to do some flying conversions, are Valkyries worth it just for their shooting power?
The only experience I have is with Zarakynel and no, She isn't worth the points.
Baneblade? Malcador/Macharius?
I'm planning to give my R&H a Crassus transport as a centrepiece, but the big downside with that is that unless you're Forging a Narrative no R&H unit can actually get inside it.
Excommunicatus wrote: The only experience I have is with Zarakynel and no, She isn't worth the points.
Baneblade? Malcador/Macharius?
I'm planning to give my R&H a Crassus transport as a centrepiece, but the big downside with that is that unless you're Forging a Narrative no R&H unit can actually get inside it.
Baneblade, ehh
Malcador is no LOW and costs 2 x leman russ with half the firepower of 1, case in point the 2 leman russes also are nearly doubly as tough then the malcador. SO basically if you want something like that , just play an armored colon of leman russes. That beeing said, you can also go full cheapo bunker with it (give it 4 heavy stubbers for 8 pts and a bc, ) however it still has ROF issues.
Macharius suffers from low ROF, except when you pick the vulcan mega bolter. I do hope you like bullets, but at 350 plus they get pricy quick.
Minottuar, simply put if you want rule of cool yes, at 292 pts it comes with a 2d6 roll 4d6 pick the highest dices earthshaker and 2 heavy bolters. It is ridicously tough, gaining cover even though it is a steel behemoth, also comes with a nice 5+ invulnerable and t8 on 22 wounds. Big negatives, you can get 3 basilisks for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: Are any of the Chaos (Astartes, Renegades, Daemons?) Lords of War or Flyers worth taking?
I'm trying to come up with a nice centerpiece model for my 2000p R&H, and I already have a knight as my "big unit" for my loyalists. I would kinda like to do some flying conversions, are Valkyries worth it just for their shooting power?
Kinda, i mean they are really cheap for transport capacity and have a decent ammount of dakka. (not to mention that since rocket pods are not heavy weapons they are also fairly accurate) they do however not bring in more points then they cost.
ph34r wrote: You are right, my Battlescribe has it wrong.
Don't trust battlescribe with any fw index army.
I now started to use some bullgores (the minotaurs) from AoS for my ogryn darts.
Frankly i am also considering adding in melee marauders and will test, atleast in smaller <1000 pts games 2x5 marauders with melee equipment, then again it will be mostlikely less effective then shooting with marauders.
Melee Marauders seem like one of those units where it could take out a weak enemy infantry or heavy weapon squad, but when it comes to the bigger battle plan may be made insignificant.
ph34r wrote: Melee Marauders seem like one of those units where it could take out a weak enemy infantry or heavy weapon squad, but when it comes to the bigger battle plan may be made insignificant.
You don't need to kit marauders for melee though.
No seriously, give the chief a power Maul or sword and then autoguns / shotguns and special weapon of choice.
They allready have 2 attacks base and ws 3+ so why not.
Infact i have recently begun running them as a sort of assult infantry with heretek, 2 plasmaguns 1 power Maul chief and when I couldn't finish an enemy squad i just charged it to wipe em.
Worked well enough there but the target should have t3.
I remain of the opinion that making melee R&H is like trying to make a cat bark.
IIRC, a Daemonette is now the same price as a Marauder and is tougher (5++), faster (7"), choppier (2/3A, depending on unit size), always fights first unless you get charged, hits more often and can be made stronger with a 60pt Herald that you can hide easily.
Bloodletters are 1pt each more than Marauders and, arguably, even better than Daemonettes.
Excommunicatus wrote: I remain of the opinion that making melee R&H is like trying to make a cat bark.
IIRC, a Daemonette is now the same price as a Marauder and is tougher (5++), faster (7"), choppier (2/3A, depending on unit size), always fights first unless you get charged, hits more often and can be made stronger with a 60pt Herald that you can hide easily.
Bloodletters are 1pt each more than Marauders and, arguably, even better than Daemonettes.
Frankly so long Unnatural vigour exists melee is valid.
Well mass melee with 50Mutant blobs, because the fact that you are allowed to reroll wounds and hits and charges and you basically can guarantee the check with the coven.
Then again tarpitting is our most valid strategy.
I'm not a fan of relying on powers that can be denied, personally.Luck is probability taken personally, granted, but my luck is super-gakky. That said, I can definitely see why you'd take a blob of 50 Mutants for melee.
I still think Daemonettes or Bloodletters make better sense than either Mutants or Marauders from a strictly performance-based analysis, but I've run no numbers.
I'm not a fan of relying on powers that can be denied, personally.Luck is probability taken personally, granted, but my luck is super-gakky. That said, I can definitely see why you'd take a blob of 50 Mutants for melee.
I still think Daemonettes or Bloodletters make better sense than either Mutants or Marauders from a strictly performance-based analysis, but I've run no numbers.
The key to melee for renegades is atm the blob, an enforcer for obvious reasons, bit of luck for the Mutation roll (cp reroll) , a command squad with banner of hate and a coven of psykers for Unnatural vigour, in combination with the covenant of Khorne.
As for marauders, marauders are actually quite durable either with the 4+armor or with stalker, don't need to sacrifice dakka for chopping. They are just Rock solid allrounders and if the rule of three would not exist probably a problem unit.
Of course a bloodletter bomb is still more killy, but getting rid of the 50 man Mutant blobs is way more annoying, not to mention that they too have autoguns, something bloodletters don't have.
Edit: granted if you are unlucky, then no, don't go Mutant blob.
However denying is quite difficult against 3d6 throws for psy Tests.
Excommunicatus wrote: Yeah, I seek to exclude chance as much as is possible in a game based on throwing dice around.
That way I only have my stupidity and lack of tactical nous to blame when I get wiped, haha.
It is the way of r&h to eliminate or stack the dice in your favour as much as possible.
Thanks to the random ld the whole army is anyways forced to Operate under that assumption, hence my reccomendation that if you intend to run militia run 2+ command squads and be willing to sacrifice some cp for a reroll for the command voxes.
Same goes with vigour, it basically nearly always Passes on a Psyker coven, it allows to stack the dice in your favour massively.
The banner of hate, beyond the fact that it is not the anti imperial only banner, makes losses into bonus attacks so a usefull Tool.
Then again tis also the way of renegades to be wiped. Khorne does not care who's blood flows, only that it does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: At this point in the book's life cycle, are renegade ogryn worthwhile at all? Probably Valkyrie-dropped, though I guess the Chimera is an option.
Valkyire ones are worth it very much.
Chimeras are on the field and get most of the time insta destroyed after people realise that ogryn Berzerkers are very likely to drill holes in plans. (yes that is a joke based upon the ogryn Berserker Boss and his power drill)
Does ofcourse help that the valkyrie itself is also really decent at it's price.
Crimson fists getting a supliment in white dwarf.
While not optimal we could see some love in here. I don't like to cart around multiple books for games but at least it's not paying for an entire supliment book and maybe get a poster in it as well would be soooooooo meta.
What I'm proposing (and hoping if gws is actually listening like they claim) is that they make a Astra militrum supliment that add a renegade and heretic regiment that changes imperium to chaos and can only be allied to chaos with the following additions.
1. The ability to choose a chaos God or undivided which adds the keyword and a unique warlord trait for each and regimental bonus (IE nurgle gets fnp 6+ or +1 toughness khorne gets +1 attack etc).
2. Swap any Lasguns for pistol and CC weapon.
3. Summon deamons.
4. A few unique units ie beastmen and rogue psychers from blackstone fortress.
5. So we don't get abused maybe at the start of the turn roll 2d6 and that is the moral for our army for the turn and/or since it's a regiment means we cannot take non regimental units like priests and commissionars which we can replace with enforcers but I guess we can still take index units maybe?
6. Relics like daemonic weapons which can replace Astra relics.
7. Stratagems to replace Astra ones maybe keep a few generic ones like take cover but a few unique ones for each God like nurgle get Revolting Regeneration (2CP): use at the end of your movement phase. A NURGLE unit regains d3 wounds or regains 1 slain model if none are wounded regained models are at 1 wound. Using <god> keyword means better synergy with other forces.
8. Also for balance guardsmen need to be increased to 5pts each but that should be a change in the overall codex not just us. It would also promote taking conscripts aka rabble over guardsmen and make us more than a cp battery.
If you like this idea please email them and blast the fb page until they listen and bring the main force of chaos back into the tabletop.
This could also be a template for mechanicus and dark mechanicus
Thoughts or ideas?
Well, there's already the possibility of something. Looking over at the kill team rules, notice that the Servants of the Abyss (a.k.a. Black Legion Kill-Team) comes with beastmen (non-tzeenchy tzaangors still not far off orks in melee but a bit faster), rogue psykers (multiwound, far-more-likely-to-perils-but-better-at-casting), negavolt cultists (basically chaos electropriests) and traitor guard - flak armour, lasguns (or laspistol/blade), sergeant, higher Ld frag grenades et al.
The latter trades the orders mechanic for a nerve (i.e. morale) reroll whenever someone tall, dark and power-armoured is looking over their shoulder, essentially turning chaos marines into a commissar equivalent, and whilst the only assault weapon in the squad is the flamer, they do get the rather nice option to equip one model with krak grenades, giving you a short-range 'sawn off' grenade launcher without the expenditure.
Crimson fists getting a supliment in white dwarf.
While not optimal we could see some love in here. I don't like to cart around multiple books for games but at least it's not paying for an entire supliment book and maybe get a poster in it as well would be soooooooo meta.
What I'm proposing (and hoping if gws is actually listening like they claim) is that they make a Astra militrum supliment that add a renegade and heretic regiment that changes imperium to chaos and can only be allied to chaos with the following additions.
1. The ability to choose a chaos God or undivided which adds the keyword and a unique warlord trait for each and regimental bonus (IE nurgle gets fnp 6+ or +1 toughness khorne gets +1 attack etc).
2. Swap any Lasguns for pistol and CC weapon.
3. Summon deamons.
4. A few unique units ie beastmen and rogue psychers from blackstone fortress.
5. So we don't get abused maybe at the start of the turn roll 2d6 and that is the moral for our army for the turn and/or since it's a regiment means we cannot take non regimental units like priests and commissionars which we can replace with enforcers but I guess we can still take index units maybe?
6. Relics like daemonic weapons which can replace Astra relics.
7. Stratagems to replace Astra ones maybe keep a few generic ones like take cover but a few unique ones for each God like nurgle get Revolting Regeneration (2CP): use at the end of your movement phase. A NURGLE unit regains d3 wounds or regains 1 slain model if none are wounded regained models are at 1 wound. Using <god> keyword means better synergy with other forces.
8. Also for balance guardsmen need to be increased to 5pts each but that should be a change in the overall codex not just us. It would also promote taking conscripts aka rabble over guardsmen and make us more than a cp battery.
If you like this idea please email them and blast the fb page until they listen and bring the main force of chaos back into the tabletop.
This could also be a template for mechanicus and dark mechanicus
Thoughts or ideas?
Well, there's already the possibility of something. Looking over at the kill team rules, notice that the Servants of the Abyss (a.k.a. Black Legion Kill-Team) comes with beastmen (non-tzeenchy tzaangors still not far off orks in melee but a bit faster), rogue psykers (multiwound, far-more-likely-to-perils-but-better-at-casting), negavolt cultists (basically chaos electropriests) and traitor guard - flak armour, lasguns (or laspistol/blade), sergeant, higher Ld frag grenades et al.
The latter trades the orders mechanic for a nerve (i.e. morale) reroll whenever someone tall, dark and power-armoured is looking over their shoulder, essentially turning chaos marines into a commissar equivalent, and whilst the only assault weapon in the squad is the flamer, they do get the rather nice option to equip one model with krak grenades, giving you a short-range 'sawn off' grenade launcher without the expenditure.
I did mention servants of the abyss aka blackstone fortress lol And there is rules for regular 40k as well but they are near unusable, only get 0-2 units of traitor guard, 0-1 beastmen, 0-2 rogue psychers and the only hq is Mallax which is a black legion chaos lord with thunder hammer and none have weapon or unit size option. It’s a start but can only be used in a patrol detachment and not a sizeable one and no stratagems or relics etc
Servants of the Abyss[edit]
Just like the Gellerpox Infected, the Servants of the Abyss From Blackstone Fortress are another warband that fit in here (even if their leader is a Kayhoss Spess Merheen). They too will struggle in larger games due to their small detachment size, but they're a nice fluffy choice to run along any other Chaos army. Otherwise, you can just pick and choose what you like.
HQ[edit]
Obsidius Mallex - A Chaos Lord with a Thunder Hammer (unique in itself since CSMs normally don't get Thunder Hammers) and a plasma pistol. Has a downside that his Chaos Lord aura can only buff BLACK LEGION. Despite his hefty price tag at 102 points, he is more survivable than a Terminator Lord with a 4+ invuln and his whopping 5 wounds. If you are already playing BLACK LEGION, he's a good choice to accompany Abby for cheap; otherwise, if you have some extra points left over, throw him in with some Noise Marines and whatever else you need to fill in gaps in a Vanguard. Nothing exceptional, but a pretty solid choice overall.
Troop[edit]
Traitor Guardsman - Literally just Cultists. That said, they are a little less expensive with the stipulation that you can't customize them and you can have a max of 2 units of 7 of them. Overall, pass, unless you're in desperate need of troops and have 70 points left over for the whole pack.
Black Legionnaires - A unit of Chaos Space Marines, but only two can be taken. Their bolters and bolt pistols with chainswords leaves them pretty lackluster, if versatile. That said, in an army of low-save, morale-vulnerable hordes, having a single unit of morale-immune Marines to sit back and hold objectives is somewhat appealing, especially considering the pair costs only 26 points.
Chaos Beastmen - A unit of very choppy MEQs. They have the unique - and appealing - ability in which every time they charge, they gain one attack and one strength. Additionally every time they fight (RAW implies this includes your opponents fight phase), they gain an extra attack in melee. This makes them an ultimate suicide bezerker - costing only 24 points for the squad of 4, it would be quite practical to have them running behind a moving gunline of mutant rabble, who would soak up stray gunfire and overwatch, then follow up the charge with these monsters. The gods have blessed us indeed.
Elite[edit]
Rogue Psyker - These guys might take the place of the Rogue Psyker Coven as highly efficient Smite machines, even if they are more vulnerable. For 30 points, you get 4/5 of the wounds you get in a Coven, with the downside that every roll of doubles results in a peril. That said, you get more survivability for 60% of the cost of a Coven, albeit with slightly less reliability for Smite spam. Overall, bound to be good unit, and hopefully the limit of two is eventually lifted.
Negavolt Cultists - Literally just a unit of four electro priests with a 6+ save in addition to the 5+ FNP. In an already melee focused Chaos meta, they are a hard pass. It might be a good idea to mount these fethers on 25mm bases and call them Heretek Marauders, since their walking poses would make that easier than the regular electro priest's standing.
Unaligned Troops[edit]
Spindle Drones - As far as the kind folks here are concerned, these guys don't belong anywhere, but in the interest of getting gak done, they were placed here. For 60 points a pop, you get 4 W2, A2 MEQs with a somewhat disappointing 18" S3 pistol. Even if that weren't already a bargain, for the same reason as the Black Legionnaires above, they have a special ability similar to the Chaos Beastmen also in the pack, but much easier to manage - for every Spindle Drone that is wounded or dies, the remaining Spindle Drones gain +1 to their strength, damage, and AP. This may not sound amazing at first, but Marine players, either of the Loyalist or Chaos variety, should be used to MSU management. It should be second nature to ca/tg/irls like us to delegate wounds to a Space Marine squad, especially in the last year with our new W2 Primaris boys. If you keep them just out of trouble, which shouldn't be too hard given their T4, S4 and 4+ save, these guys can become excellent monster and character killers, becoming the suicide bomb of your dreams.
Note that RAI seems to be that with their UNALIGNED keyword, these guys should be able to go into any army, but possibly only in a separate detachment. They would probably fit well into a Dark Eldar Army as fluffy exotic toys, and would work well as hard hitting, short range character killers. Similarly, attaching them to an Elucidean Starstriders detachment would be fluffy and work well to give them some much-needed staying power in lower points games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The traitor guard have a 5+ so not like cultists
I recently looked again at the sculpts for the Traitorguardsmen.
compare the lasguns, it's the Lucius pattern, the one that DKoK uses, albeit modified.
also their helmets, are differrent, still cadian like however more of a Stahlhelm flair.
I am or would not be surprised, that we eventually might get a release of either cultists or a propper rework of the lost and the damned list.
Yeah, really dumb. The perk is what, a single drop deployment for the mediocre mishmash of units? On one hand, I guess GW could have just not given these units 40k rules, but on the other, that is some goofy nonsense.
Excommunicatus wrote: Servants of the Abyss might be the stupidest rule I've ever seen.
I guess you haven’t seen the rules for renegades and heretics then.
Traitor guard are much better than cultists and militia, beastmen are badass melee beasts, rogue are great cheap smites and mallex has the only chaos thunder hammer who’s igreat
Excommunicatus wrote: Servants of the Abyss might be the stupidest rule I've ever seen.
I guess you haven’t seen the rules for renegades and heretics then.
Traitor guard are much better than cultists and militia, beastmen are badass melee beasts, rogue are great cheap smites and mallex has the only chaos thunder hammer who’s igreat
MHM:
Traitor guardsmen are limited to flamer, melee weapons and some lasguns.
They did not get a cheaper flamer. so still 7x4 +7pts. That's 35 pts. for 5 pts i get 10 militia members or mutants, which actually all can have guns or are better.
Beastmen would be nice, except they need to be deployed like the rest around malex, consequently that makes it really easy to either mess up and or to kill them off via tarpit.
The psykers have a higher tendency to blow themselves up even compared to psyker coven. Also just smite, so basically you get more options that are usefull with a regular covens.
You sacrifice one detachment slot for a patrol.
In competitive that is bad, especially since Chaos needs it for their arhiman and DP shenanigans.
They don't generate cp.
Mallex is specifically blacklegion and therefore gak.
Excommunicatus wrote: Servants of the Abyss might be the stupidest rule I've ever seen.
I guess you haven’t seen the rules for renegades and heretics then.
Traitor guard are much better than cultists and militia, beastmen are badass melee beasts, rogue are great cheap smites and mallex has the only chaos thunder hammer who’s igreat
It doesn't really matter how much better their stats are when you're limited to fourteen of them.
Ditto, Beastmen. Except you only get four of them.
If this gets expanded into a proper Faction, I'll agree they're better than R&H. Right now, nyet.
Excommunicatus wrote: Servants of the Abyss might be the stupidest rule I've ever seen.
I guess you haven’t seen the rules for renegades and heretics then.
Traitor guard are much better than cultists and militia, beastmen are badass melee beasts, rogue are great cheap smites and mallex has the only chaos thunder hammer who’s igreat
MHM:
Traitor guardsmen are limited to flamer, melee weapons and some lasguns.
They did not get a cheaper flamer. so still 7x4 +7pts. That's 35 pts. for 5 pts i get 10 militia members or mutants, which actually all can have guns or are better.
Beastmen would be nice, except they need to be deployed like the rest around malex, consequently that makes it really easy to either mess up and or to kill them off via tarpit.
The psykers have a higher tendency to blow themselves up even compared to psyker coven. Also just smite, so basically you get more options that are usefull with a regular covens.
You sacrifice one detachment slot for a patrol.
In competitive that is bad, especially since Chaos needs it for their arhiman and DP shenanigans.
They don't generate cp.
Mallex is specifically blacklegion and therefore gak.
do i need to go on.
Your entitled to your opinion But traitor guard are the same points as militia but have double the armour save, higher ld, +1 to hit and the smaller squad size means that it’s less likely to lose units to moral and cheaper unit than even heretics can make.
Beastmen if used well can be used to charge into and damage a tarpit and easily make their 24 points back.
A psycher coven is also 100 points compared to 30 and doesn’t have the character rule. Also the re roll of 1 means more likely to smite.
But yeah it takes a detachment and doesn’t generate cp which blows, both heretics and servants have sweat fa to spend them on anyway unless we ally. If they just gave us renegades traitor guard as an option and customisable gear, some damn stratagems and relics I could see us being used semi competively especially if they made the servants an option in renegades and heretics
Excommunicatus wrote: Servants of the Abyss might be the stupidest rule I've ever seen.
I guess you haven’t seen the rules for renegades and heretics then.
Traitor guard are much better than cultists and militia, beastmen are badass melee beasts, rogue are great cheap smites and mallex has the only chaos thunder hammer who’s igreat
MHM:
Traitor guardsmen are limited to flamer, melee weapons and some lasguns.
They did not get a cheaper flamer. so still 7x4 +7pts. That's 35 pts. for 5 pts i get 10 militia members or mutants, which actually all can have guns or are better.
Beastmen would be nice, except they need to be deployed like the rest around malex, consequently that makes it really easy to either mess up and or to kill them off via tarpit.
The psykers have a higher tendency to blow themselves up even compared to psyker coven. Also just smite, so basically you get more options that are usefull with a regular covens.
You sacrifice one detachment slot for a patrol.
In competitive that is bad, especially since Chaos needs it for their arhiman and DP shenanigans.
They don't generate cp.
Mallex is specifically blacklegion and therefore gak.
do i need to go on.
Your entitled to your opinion But traitor guard are the same points as militia but have double the armour save, higher ld, +1 to hit and the smaller squad size means that it’s less likely to lose units to moral and cheaper unit than even heretics can make.
Beastmen if used well can be used to charge into and damage a tarpit and easily make their 24 points back.
A psycher coven is also 100 points compared to 30 and doesn’t have the character rule. Also the re roll of 1 means more likely to smite.
But yeah it takes a detachment and doesn’t generate cp which blows, both heretics and servants have sweat fa to spend them on anyway unless we ally. If they just gave us renegades traitor guard as an option and customisable gear, some damn stratagems and relics I could see us being used semi competively especially if they made the servants an option in renegades and heretics
You only can field traitor guard if you field mallex. Which is a black legion lord, which means he is pointless.
LD is d6+2 which is 5.5 average. basically you can expect equal results.
A coven is mainly there to cast unnatural vigour.
Infact you can only field them when you field mallex. So by virtue of him beein 106 pts alone he makes me wonder why even bother.
Mallex +2 traitor guardsmen squads are alone 176 pts.
For that i get 2 Renegade commanders and 30 Infantry dudes.
I am outnumbering the servants by 17 models alone, have more ranged firepower and generated 5 cp, which potential allies actually can use.
infact if you add in the 2 psykers i will field 6 mortar teams, and spend 6 ppm to equip the milita with stubbers and have 6 points less.
I have again the ranged advantage, the mortars alone will squad wipe the traitor guardsmen on average. and we have not even started talking about the volume of fire the militia will provide. Meanwhile half the Traitor guardsman can do feth all in the 24"-12" range.
Instead of sleeping, like a sane person, I spent hours last night just bouncing around between the R&H index list and Chapter Approved, hoping that some magical new awesome thing would pop out at me. SPOILER ALERT: it didn't, because there isn't one.
Nothing new, probably discussed in this thread already, but my plans are:
1.) Kind of a crappy way of getting 12 CP in the sense that the units aren't very good, but it would be 562 points for a brigade: 3x Commanders, 6x Mutants/Militia, 3x Enforcers, 3x Spawn, 3x Heavy Weapons Squads with mortars (would be cheaper with heavy stubbers but might as well take the mortars and not be as useless). Not god-awful for holding objectives, except the whole lacking objective-secured thing.
2.) 50-man blobs of mutants supported by Enforcers for morale immunity (at least FW's lack of updates have one positive effect). Pretty damn good screen, especially with the +1T result if one is lucky. Not sure it's ever worth taking a warlord from R&H but Slaanesh could help them move around.
2.) 6 BS3+ lascannons spread out between command and disciple squads, 300 points total for 6 and no other upgrades. Eh...? I guess it could be worse?
3.) Ogryns in Valkyries as discussed on the previous page. Of course losing a single one to a roll of 1 (or all 3-4 with my luck) for grav-chute insertion would suck ass, but whatever. If this unit gets to fight it seems really damn good, especially with the boss in the mix. Lol @ their weapons costing 1 point each. Insulting.
4.) Basilisks, Wyverns, and Leman Russes. No creativity or insight necessary. Just the base units, which are decent. Mortar teams would be so damn cheap and spammable, but due to BS5+ I feel like it's a wash. Maybe I'm underestimating the math, my off the cuff calculations weren't impressive.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Instead of sleeping, like a sane person, I spent hours last night just bouncing around between the R&H index list and Chapter Approved, hoping that some magical new awesome thing would pop out at me. SPOILER ALERT: it didn't, because there isn't one.
Nothing new, probably discussed in this thread already, but my plans are:
1.) Kind of a crappy way of getting 12 CP in the sense that the units aren't very good, but it would be 562 points for a brigade: 3x Commanders, 6x Mutants/Militia, 3x Enforcers, 3x Spawn, 3x Heavy Weapons Squads with mortars (would be cheaper with heavy stubbers but might as well take the mortars and not be as useless). Not god-awful for holding objectives, except the whole lacking objective-secured thing.
2.) 50-man blobs of mutants supported by Enforcers for morale immunity (at least FW's lack of updates have one positive effect). Pretty damn good screen, especially with the +1T result if one is lucky. Not sure it's ever worth taking a warlord from R&H but Slaanesh could help them move around.
2.) 6 BS3+ lascannons spread out between command and disciple squads, 300 points total for 6 and no other upgrades. Eh...? I guess it could be worse?
3.) Ogryns in Valkyries as discussed on the previous page. Of course losing a single one to a roll of 1 (or all 3-4 with my luck) for grav-chute insertion would suck ass, but whatever. If this unit gets to fight it seems really damn good, especially with the boss in the mix. Lol @ their weapons costing 1 point each. Insulting.
4.) Basilisks, Wyverns, and Leman Russes. No creativity or insight necessary. Just the base units, which are decent. Mortar teams would be so damn cheap and spammable, but due to BS5+ I feel like it's a wash. Maybe I'm underestimating the math, my off the cuff calculations weren't impressive.
Hours wasted, haha! *twitch*
Such mediocrity. Ugh.
Well techincally you could add in 5.) Marauder squads, stalker variant. 6ppm better veteran with morale immunity and an always on -1 to hit is not bad.
6.) mortar squads, are on average 21 shots, 7 hits, and against t3 targets, 5 wounds . +-. That is not bad, but the main reason you field them is to get LOS ignoring fire to remove objective camping squads, which they do.
HOWEVER: Heavy stubers are now 2 pts. 6 heavy stubber teams guarantee 6 hits for 18 pts less. that is a comparable result and reliable. Only problem is line of sight. other than that if you want a cheap brigade and or spam stubbers because WW1 reenactment go ahead.
Atm, i am more looking at equipped squads of militia since our equipment dropped quite massivly. Nade launches for 3 ppm stubbers for 2 ppm, that is fairly impressive. Only real downside we are again stuck with alteast voxes and command voxes. not really a downside but it locks the build in.
Those militia options are definitely better than they used to be due to the cheaper cost, but man 1 gun per unit at BS5+ is so disappointing. Frag grenades in the launcher might not be so bad against the appropriate targets, though.
)
Two additional flamers on an already inferior infantry squad? Tanks that are worse than the two other armies (Guard/
)
) is roughly as follows, though I'm feeling pretty flexible
