Previous rmours were said to be false by the usual rumour mongers, who are trusted, but it seems that previous rumours were correct!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/your-codex-is-coming-july-5gw-homepage-post-1/

Wow glad I got Imperium 1. NOT.

Seriously? You didn't expect Space marines to be one of the first codexes?

To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

I'm actually glad my main army is not the first codex as gw is still fixing the index versions of the dataslates which I'm sure are 99% copy and paste. Gw needs at least 1 more major FAQ/errata to fix a few more mistakes and some major imbalance issues. Primarily I think plasmaguns/pistols need to be nerfed to str6 base str7 overcharged. As this will make grenade launchers viable and deep strike melta viable alternatives which mathematically plasmaguns out perform both other weapon options.

I also wouldn't mind seeing conscript blobs reduce to max 20 or 30 models making commands less efficient for them.

I thought Primaris would be one of the first and I have no interest in them......

oh great, yet another 40k thread. Can't have enough of those! And confirming something that was obviously happening? I might need a sit down!

From the codex faq:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Points will change. Rules will change. Some units are NOT in the codex so you will also need your index.

I'm glad they are already fixing points and rules! Maybe some of the new OP units (IG, looking at you) will get fixed asap.

It astonishes me that anyone who knows anything at all about 40k did not see this coming. Codex space marines is always one of the first books in a new edition.
When they first previewed 40k in March they said that codexes which superceded the index books would be coming.
They only surprise is the speed at which they are coming. 10 by Christmas is impressive. With the 4 revealed it seems a safe bet that we will see admech and necrons too. Any bets on the other 4?

So the first 4 codexs will be space marines of some colour/spikyness. Who wants to bet the next 5 after that will be Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels.

Enough with the fething space marines GW, in the last 2 years we've had all of 2 major none Power Armour releases (Tau and GSC), by October that number goes down to 1.

gungo wrote:
To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

I'm actually glad my main army is not the first codex as gw is still fixing the index versions of the dataslates which I'm sure are 99% copy and paste. Gw needs at least 1 more major FAQ/errata to fix a few more mistakes and some major imbalance issues. Primarily I think plasmaguns/pistols need to be nerfed to str6 base str7 overcharged. As this will make grenade launchers viable and deep strike melta viable alternatives which mathematically plasmaguns out perform both other weapon options.

10 codex in 5 months is indeed 2 per month.........

It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

Slave wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

I'm actually glad my main army is not the first codex as gw is still fixing the index versions of the dataslates which I'm sure are 99% copy and paste. Gw needs at least 1 more major FAQ/errata to fix a few more mistakes and some major imbalance issues. Primarily I think plasmaguns/pistols need to be nerfed to str6 base str7 overcharged. As this will make grenade launchers viable and deep strike melta viable alternatives which mathematically plasmaguns out perform both other weapon options.

10 codex in 5 months is indeed 2 per month.........

except its 6 months since they are coming in July.

Huh, hardcover codex... I wonder if this will be again at the old price point of codices.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Huh, hardcover codex... I wonder if this will be again at the old price point of codices.

I do wish they offered both hard and softback codices...but I understand them not doing it for financial reasons.

I'm glad we all collectively fell for the codex racket yet again. So Blood Angels have to use the units in the "Space Marine" section of the Index but can't use those same units in the upcoming Space Marine codex? Thanks.

1 month in and we'll already need double the amount of books to play due to that bizarre decision.

If you're going to homogenize all the space marine chapters to use a single list (IE index) then it makes sense to include them in a new codex!

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

Genuine questions, why did you buy all 5 books? Have you used every index in games already? Did you not expect codexes to come out? Are you upset that they are coming out too fast?

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Huh, hardcover codex... I wonder if this will be again at the old price point of codices.

I do wish they offered both hard and softback codices...but I understand them not doing it for financial reasons.

They do short printings now of the hardbacks. If you want a softback, wait a month or two if it's a popular army.

Chikout wrote:

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

Genuine questions, why did you buy all 5 books? Have you used every index in games already? Did you not expect codexes to come out? Are you upset that they are coming out too fast?

Yes as I have an army that was featured in every book and run events, hence I needed all 5.

I expected them to come out but less than a month after gouging us on the indexes is a bit much.

I can't be the only one who feels this way nor the only one that bought all 5 indexes, regardless of whether or not they have an army in every faction.

Rynner wrote:

I can't be the only one who feels this way nor the only one that bought all 5 indexes, regardless of whether or not they have an army in every faction.

Good job that it's very likely all 5 indexes will still have unique content at the end of the year then!

 xttz wrote:

Rynner wrote:

I can't be the only one who feels this way nor the only one that bought all 5 indexes, regardless of whether or not they have an army in every faction.

Good job that it's very likely all 5 indexes will still have unique content at the end of the year then!

I'm sorry what are you trying to say here?

 Kanluwen wrote:

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Huh, hardcover codex... I wonder if this will be again at the old price point of codices.

I do wish they offered both hard and softback codices...but I understand them not doing it for financial reasons.

They do short printings now of the hardbacks. If you want a softback, wait a month or two if it's a popular army.

This. Hardbacks are almost another 'limited edition' nowadays.

I only got the one index book that has nids and genestealers in it, since those are my 2 main armies, so it worked out for me. And I figured those 2 probably aren't high on the redo list. The indexes were a good idea though, for everyone but space marines. They always do space marines first when there's a new edition, because space marines.

Hah, was just wondering if the SM codex will have FW chapters in there. Decided on Red Scorpions to accompany the Fists but realised their chapter tactics will most likely be in Fires of Cyraxus.

Ohhh yes Im just stoked for expanded lore on the Xenos and non SM in general! Forge World Graia tactics please!

This was obviously going to happen, so I'm not surprised. However, I am concerned if it ends up being that you will need the rulebook, the index, and the specific army book to cover an entire faction...that would be bad.

Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

Internet hyperbole is hilarious. Please don't stop posting.

Wow, the new structure is just... super cumbersome, in that it's a place they'll be keeping a few legacy entries once the rest of the contents are replaced. And it feels pretty lame that some are getting replaced so quickly: with the turnaround/development time for books, it's pretty safe to assume that the first wave of codexes will have seen no open player feedback, and it's pretty likely that they just decided to sell dumbed down and regular versions that they were developing at the same time, to the point that I wouldn't be surprised if they just stripped down the index entries.

I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

I am mad that I literally ordered my index 1 last night, and because the Space Marine Codex isn't available for pre-order yet, I just wasted $20. Only 2 days back in the game and GW let me down already.


EDIT: Spelling

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

It's going to take them over a year to get all of the Codexes out. Which armies did you not want to have rules for for a full year?

Did no one read this in the 8th edition rulebook?

Having a dedicated rule book for Space Marines almost immediately replaced with a dedicated rule book for Space Marines is a little upsetting.

I'm not actually upset, but I had hoped GW was using 8th to move away from the Codex system. Its just an outdated, clunky system and every additional book makes it more unwieldy. Unofficial apps can somewhat patch the problem, but as the game is officially supported, Codexes are more or less the most miserable system out there from both an army building and gameplay standpoint. I'm sad to see GW doubling down on a bad system.

Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by anything here. The writing was on the wall if you cared to look.

Me on the 15th of last month:

not only will you see Chapter Tactics and Legion Tactics again. Before long you're going to see Sept Tactics, Klan Taktiks, Dynasty Tactics, Forgeworld Tactics, etc. etc.

Me on the 4th of last month:

I am sure GW will continue to release models and their rules simultaneously, so yes. Primaris and Death Guard will be the first two out of the gate.

I am also quite certain we will see a very rapid Codex release schedule, akin to early 3rd edition (at least 1 a month) to bridge the inevitable power gap between Codex armies and Index armies ASAP.

Hey, look.

'Wait, did you say Death Guard?
We did. The Plague Legions of Nurgle are getting their own book to represent the fact that their way of war is substantially different from that of most Traitor Legions, as is the range of miniatures you can choose to use in your Death Guard army.'

*waits for the DG moan brigade to hijack the thread with doom saying about no havocs or terminators*

 LunarSol wrote:
Having a dedicated rule book for Space Marines almost immediately replaced with a dedicated rule book for Space Marines is a little upsetting.

I'm not actually upset, but I had hoped GW was using 8th to move away from the Codex system. Its just an outdated, clunky system and every additional book makes it more unwieldy. Unofficial apps can somewhat patch the problem, but as the game is officially supported, Codexes are more or less the most miserable system out there from both an army building and gameplay standpoint. I'm sad to see GW doubling down on a bad system.

That's a fair complaint. I don't think the Codex system is perfect, but it's fine - as long as they don't allow rule/power creep to appear in subsequent books. If the last codex released is similar in power level and structure to the first Space Marine one, then there's no problem.

This has not happened historically, but they've done a pretty good job with AoS (not all Battletomes are created equal, but they all are at least fairly close in power level other than some under/overpointed units), so I'm cautiously optimistic. Especially since the Indices are all pretty balanced other than some outliers and oversights (some of which got FAQed already), so I think it's looking pretty good overall.

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

I think what baffles me the most is that they announced this at Adepticon in March and numerous times inbetween way before the index books went on pre-order. They didn't say that space marines would be first but that is the least surprising news ever.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
I am mad that I literally ordered my index 1 last night, and because the Space Marine Codex isn't available for pre-order yet, I just wasted $20. Only 2 days back in the game and GW let me down already.


EDIT: Spelling

You could just, you know, cancel the order, return it or part exchange it towards the codex when it's released? No one says you have to keep it forever and a day.

Kriswall wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

It's good to see GW peppering the release schedule with something for all the players of the 40k universe. We start with Space Marines, and their cousins the Taller Space Marines. After that, we explore the depths of the Evil Space Marines, who sometimes break up into smaller Evil Space Marine Tribes. After that, we completely change focus to Wizard Space Marines, and then move on to Tough and Gross Evil Space Marines.

The breadth of and scope of the schedule is mind boggling.

Chikout wrote:
It astonishes me that anyone who knows anything at all about 40k did not see this coming. Codex space marines is always one of the first books in a new edition.
When they first previewed 40k in March they said that codexes which superceded the index books would be coming.
They only surprise is the speed at which they are coming. 10 by Christmas is impressive. With the 4 revealed it seems a safe bet that we will see admech and necrons too. Any bets on the other 4?

What is it... 25 years plus?

They haven't missed a beat. We go through it time and time again, and it is the same dance.

THOSE particular new books were the equivalent of Tide me overs. Everyone who has been in the game for five minutes knows how the sales model goes.

I for one, am satisfied with the consistency. Not so much with the prices.

"Hey GW, why'd you split out the points from unit entries"
"So we could make balance tweaks without having to update datasheets"

"Hey GW, Will Codices change rules?"
"yes, sometimes we'll tweak rules for balance reasons"

Soo...you may as well have just kept them all together then

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

and yet indexs where hailed when they were released as a good value and cheap. And as the codex post says there will always be units in the index that will never have a codex entry such as the imperial 30th anniversary marine. And let's just see how different your codex is from the index. Odds are they are mostly the same meaning you have a much cheaper although less detailed index of every army's units. And unless you play a specific faction you likely don't need to buy the 30 codecs that's will be out in the next 2-3 years worth of releases.

It is fun to see the hilarity of how if GW doesn't update things it is bad, but if GW does update things it is bad. Nothing will please everyone guys, if GW doesn't do exactly what you'd like it doesn't mean it's a terrible development. Accept it and move on, or dwell on it and keep ruining your own enjoyment.

Not upset at all. If they release Orks tomorrow, I will gladly buy that on top of the index.

I will flip hamburgers for a few hours for a balanced codex.

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

Requizen wrote:

Kriswall wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I like the general core rules of the new edition, but with this awkward overlap, deceptive communication, and FW dropping the ball pretty hard, I'm not all that confident.

This is how I feel. I really want to believe that GW has changed. I'm just worried that we'll be looking at a fragmented $1000+ full rule set for 8th, just like 7th.

Let's make a couple of very reasonable assumptions and err on the low side.

GW has a ton of factions on their site right now. I think it's reasonable to assume something like this for initial Codex factions. Let's call a Codex $40, even though we all know they're probably going to be $50 in many, if not all, cases.
1. Space Marines
2. Blood Angels
3. Dark Angels
4. Deathwatch
5. Grey Knights
6. Space Wolves
7. Imperial Guard
8. Imperial Agents (Misc Imperials... i.e., Ministorum, Custodes, Sister of Silence, Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, Assassins)
9. AdMech
10. Imperial Knights
11. Chaos Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons
13. Death Guard
14. Orks
15. Craftworld Eldar
16. Dark Eldar
17. Other Eldar (Harlequins/Ynnari)
18. Necrons
19. T'au Empire
20. Tyranids
21. Genestealer Cults
22. Sisters of Battle

Core Rules - $60
Index Books - 5x $25 = $125
Codexes - ~22x $40 = $880

At a quick ballpark figure, erring on the side of no new factions and a cheaper than expected codex, that's $1065. I'm also expecting campaign books and new factions/rules expansions to jack the price up even higher. I'm not even including the Forgeworld books, which contain rules for SOME of the 40k stuff. We've already been told the the FW indexes are incomplete and don't cover all existing 40k usable models. The Secutarii Titan Guard are an example. I know this because I bought them and now don't have rules to use them.

I really don't understand this complaint. Yes, if you want to buy every single piece of lore and memorabilia, it's going to cost something. But... you know that going into it. And if you need those books because you own every army, you've already probably spent 8x-10x that on models alone, so... is the cost of books really the thing to complain about here?

What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Charax wrote:
"Hey GW, why'd you split out the points from unit entries"
"So we could make balance tweaks without having to update datasheets"

"Hey GW, Will Codices change rules?"
"yes, sometimes we'll tweak rules for balance reasons"

Soo...you may as well have just kept them all together then

More dials to turn for balance is better. If they just need to change the cost of Plasma, they can. If they just need to change the reroll mechanic of a specific unit, they can. Neither was going to be perfect the first or second time, so having the ability to tweak either separately is better overall.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
It's good to see GW peppering the release schedule with something for all the players of the 40k universe. We start with Space Marines, and their cousins the Taller Space Marines. After that, we explore the depths of the Evil Space Marines, who sometimes break up into smaller Evil Space Marine Tribes. After that, we completely change focus to Wizard Space Marines, and then move on to Tough and Gross Evil Space Marines.

The breadth of and scope of the schedule is mind boggling.

The breadth and scope of the whininess of non Marine players is mind boggling. Let me tell you a secret no one else knows about GW - Space Marines and their spiky cousins are by far GWs best sellers. They will get stuff first, and more of it, until they are not the best sellers. Therefore, Codex Alien Cannon Fodder is not a priority. Expecting it to be different when it has never been so, is mind boggling.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0?

FWIW, cards are no longer included in models, but can be downloaded for free from the new card database. They're essentially more free than they used to be now.

Is people really complaining that if you want to buy EVERYTHING you have to spend a good ammount of money?

I'm glad that they are releasing codexs so fast.
And Indexes are 20€ books with rules for EVERY FACTION in the game. Many factions are gonna use the index for probably 8moths to 1 year.
Are you really mad that you pay 20€ for a book that allow you to play with 3-5 factions for 6months-1 year?

Yeah, I agree. Full free rules for everything and everybody would be ideal. Thats not the case. I gladly pay a reasonable amount of money for a good Codex without a glance if is a army that I play. I see tha tthe problem is how you see Codexs as "50$ for a book with only a dozen of pages of usefull content (aka rules)".
Then, obviously, Warhammer40k isn't for you. This game isn't only about the gameplay. And this is not a "gid good", is just the reality. Is the experience GW is selling you.

Requizen wrote:

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

This is a fair criticism. My rules aren't perfect, but they are soooo much better. I love 40k and own GW stock. What I'm pissed about is that changing the points... fine... but changing rules when the new rules and indexes have been out for 30 days? Does that seem like they are working on a good product or working on a good profit. Either is fine as I'm stoked for my portfolio OR I'm stoked for my hobby. Right now.... I'm pissed about my hobby.

For you, maybe. Other factions will have to wait longer than 30 days before they get their codex.

 AduroT wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Wait, so are we mad that GW is releasing the Codexes in a timely fashion, or are we mad that they didn't leave us with zero rules between the eighth release and when your Codex comes out?

I'm personally mad because I feel dubbed that I spent so much on indexes are going to basically be nothing more than tinder to keep me warm in the winter so soon after the launch.

It's going to take them over a year to get all of the Codexes out. Which armies did you not want to have rules for for a full year?

Well when AoS came out they gave the option to pay for the stop gap rules as a physical copy or grab them for free online. Would have been a better move to have done the same again.

I get it man.

The 25$ index prices bought me into the edition. Dealing with a year of everything stagnating while space marine variants get all the rules special powers and warlord traits and models and seeing the return of 50$ books would chase me right back out.

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

They were...

Its not like every unit is getting a rules change. I expect a full 75% of them (at least) to have no changes at all.

 JimOnMars wrote:

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

I have bad news for you, then...it's going to happen. I don't say this to be cynical, but just by adding this amount of material, there's bound to be things that come out as more powerful. Especially considering how many codices we're likely to see.

 doktor_g wrote:

Requizen wrote:

doktor_g wrote:My favorite part...

"Are the rules are changing?
Yes, many units' rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the minatures and the background, sometimse to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army's new special rules in the codex itself."

FUGW

If GW doesn't change rules:
"FUGW why wouldn't you fix things and update it to shake up the meta you're so at making games"

If GW changes rules:
"FUGW why would you change things everything of mine is perfect you just want more money you suck so hard"

This is a fair criticism. My rules aren't perfect, but they are soooo much better. I love 40k and own GW stock. What I'm pissed about is that changing the points... fine... but changing rules when the new rules and indexes have been out for 30 days? Does that seem like they are working on a good product or working on a good profit. Either is fine as I'm stoked for my portfolio OR I'm stoked for my hobby. Right now.... I'm pissed about my hobby.

It's possible no units will change for the first few Codices, other than rewording for clarification. It's just a statement to clarify how it works in case they do change things.

Again looking at AoS, IIRC the Sylvaneth Battletome (the first one out post GHB) didn't change any profiles at all, just included new models and added the Allegiance Abilities. Stormcast, which is much more recent, only changed a couple Hero rules and left all non-Hero units the same.

I would not expect any sweeping changes to existing units in the SM or CSM Codices.

 Galas wrote:
Is people really complaining that if you want to buy EVERYTHING you have to spend a good ammount of money?

I'm glad that they are releasing codexs so fast.
And Indexes are 20€ books with rules for EVERY FACTION in the game. Many factions are gonna use the index for probably 8moths to 1 year.
Are you really mad that you pay 20€ for a book that allow you to play with 3-5 factions for 6months-1 year?

Yeah, I agree. Full free rules for everything and everybody would be ideal. Thats not the case. I gladly pay a reasonable amount of money for a good Codex without a glance if is a army that I play. I see tha tthe problem is how you see Codexs as "50$ for a book with only a dozen of pages of usefull content (aka rules)".
Then, obviously, Warhammer40k isn't for you. This game isn't only about the gameplay. And this is not a "gid good", is just the reality. Is the experience GW is selling you.

I don't mind paying for rules. I'm just irritated that my $5 worth of rules come bundled with $45 worth of fluff. GW understands that not everyone wants the fluff. Presumably, this is why they released Gamer's Edition Codexes that were rules ONLY back in 7th. I'd like to see that again, but am not optimistic that I'll see it anytime soon.

And yes, people are complaining that a full set of rules will cost over a THOUSAND dollars when every other major table top game is entirely, if not almost entirely, FREE. That's a MASSIVE discrepancy. I'd rather spend that money on models.

Oh, I agree. Ideally we could have 100% of the rules for free and "Codexs" being 100% fluff, nice pictures, hobby and paint guides, etc...

But GW know in that case they are gonna make less money. We know that, everybody know that. I doubt that the increase in model sales for having free rules is gonna compensate the loses for codexs.

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

Gamers will drop $20 on a fancy burger that they enjoy for 20 minutes and then scream bloody murder over paying $20 for a book they use for a month. It is what it is.

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad we all collectively fell for the codex racket yet again. So Blood Angels have to use the units in the "Space Marine" section of the Index but can't use those same units in the upcoming Space Marine codex? Thanks.

1 month in and we'll already need double the amount of books to play due to that bizarre decision.

If you're going to homogenize all the space marine chapters to use a single list (IE index) then it makes sense to include them in a new codex!

This is the part that worries me. Are we going to be stuck in a weird half/half codex situation for armies like Blood Angels like it was back in 3/4E with the little supplemental codices? If I'm running BA after C:SM comes out and I want to run a Sangiunary Novitate, he uses the Apothecary data card with a fancy new BA name. Do I use the one from I:A1, or do I now need to own C:SM as well? But then in the fall when a Codex: Red Marines comes out, will I have a complete list of units there and no longer need C:SM to reference? The whole codex system is one of the worst things about playing GW games, and the last few weeks of everyone having one of five books and being on a simple, level playing field has been so refreshing.

Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

 gorgon wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

Gamers will drop $20 on a fancy burger that they enjoy for 20 minutes and then scream bloody murder over paying $20 for a book they use for a month. It is what it is.

This is a next level false equivalency (food and models aren't in any fashion a similar medium), and even if it were the case they were being hypocritical, what would it matter? Hypocrisy, and personal character in general, has no impact upon criticism of perceived poor business practice.

 gorgon wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

Gamers will drop $20 on a fancy burger that they enjoy for 20 minutes and then scream bloody murder over paying $20 for a book they use for a month. It is what it is.

This is probably true of most people as they probably feel as if the money is wasted. The reality is no one takes the book from them nor does it disallow them to use it outside of a GW. Better for the codices than the indices since you get the lore and the pictures to go along with it at least. I mean they're even $40 here and I'm rather indifferent to the idea that my Imperium 2 will be outdated soon enough as I understood that it was just a temporary book when I got the thing.

 blood reaper wrote:
Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

It's not criticism if you don't offer a reasonable alternative. Saying "everything should be free" is not reasonable because a) we know it will never happen and b) it's not necessary for their business model.

When you just complain about something and say it's bad for the sake of complaining and not liking it, it's not criticism.

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad we all collectively fell for the codex racket yet again. So Blood Angels have to use the units in the "Space Marine" section of the Index but can't use those same units in the upcoming Space Marine codex? Thanks.

1 month in and we'll already need double the amount of books to play due to that bizarre decision.

If you're going to homogenize all the space marine chapters to use a single list (IE index) then it makes sense to include them in a new codex!

This is the part that worries me. Are we going to be stuck in a weird half/half codex situation for armies like Blood Angels like it was back in 3/4E with the little supplemental codices? If I'm running BA after C:SM comes out and I want to run a Sangiunary Novitate, he uses the Apothecary data card with a fancy new BA name. Do I use the one from I:A1, or do I now need to own C:SM as well? But then in the fall when a Codex: Red Marines comes out, will I have a complete list of units there and no longer need C:SM to reference? The whole codex system is one of the worst things about playing GW games, and the last few weeks of everyone having one of five books and being on a simple, level playing field has been so refreshing.

I'm pretty sure that every unit that BA can take will be in their codexs.
Is just absurd otherwise. What, the BA isn't gonna have the Tactical Squad rules? Only 100% specific BA units like Sanguinary Guard and Death Company? I don't think thats the case.
Every Space Marine Codex will bring the generic Space Marine units: Tactical, Devastators, etc...
Besides Space Wolves that those are Special Snowflakes even in that case and all of their units are 100% unique
You just use your Index until your Codex comes out. I don't find that difficult. You still only need one book. Or your index, or your Codex.

Requizen wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

It's not criticism if you don't offer a reasonable alternative. Saying "everything should be free" is not reasonable because a) we know it will never happen and b) it's not necessary for their business model.

It did for a bit.


Of course it's not ideal for them to do so in the long term outside of some stop gap rules really.

 gorgon wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Lol GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland included (and then there would be complaints that they didn't pay for airfare).

I don't agree with every decision they make, but come on. Complaining that a $20 stopgap book is getting replaced by actual rules? Everyone knew this was coming. The Indices were always only there until the actual books came out - that's why they were cheap and not comprehensive. And they'll still be useful for certain models that won't be included in the Codex.

But yeah, the internet is for whining, among other things.

Gamers will drop $20 on a fancy burger that they enjoy for 20 minutes and then scream bloody murder over paying $20 for a book they use for a month. It is what it is.

Well said.

Gamers have always felt entitled to low prices and free things. At the end of the day, GW is a business. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy.

I work at a farm that has a market. Our prices are higher than super markets because the food is fresh and in high demand. We have a saying we use when people complain...maybe this isn't the farm for you.

People complaining about GW prices...maybe this isn't the game for you.

Requizen wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

It's not criticism if you don't offer a reasonable alternative. Saying "everything should be free" is not reasonable because a) we know it will never happen and b) it's not necessary for their business model.

When you just complain about something and say it's bad for the sake of complaining and not liking it, it's not criticism.

'Saying everything should be free isn't reasonable"

Simply because the probability of something not occurring isn't great doesn't mean the claim it would be better isn't reasonable.

Furthermore, no one is claiming something to be 'bad for the sake of bad', and even if this were the case, the critique made in the process wouldn't be invalid.

 Galas wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad we all collectively fell for the codex racket yet again. So Blood Angels have to use the units in the "Space Marine" section of the Index but can't use those same units in the upcoming Space Marine codex? Thanks.

1 month in and we'll already need double the amount of books to play due to that bizarre decision.

If you're going to homogenize all the space marine chapters to use a single list (IE index) then it makes sense to include them in a new codex!

This is the part that worries me. Are we going to be stuck in a weird half/half codex situation for armies like Blood Angels like it was back in 3/4E with the little supplemental codices? If I'm running BA after C:SM comes out and I want to run a Sangiunary Novitate, he uses the Apothecary data card with a fancy new BA name. Do I use the one from I:A1, or do I now need to own C:SM as well? But then in the fall when a Codex: Red Marines comes out, will I have a complete list of units there and no longer need C:SM to reference? The whole codex system is one of the worst things about playing GW games, and the last few weeks of everyone having one of five books and being on a simple, level playing field has been so refreshing.

I'm pretty sure that every unit that BA can take will be in their codexs.
Is just absurd otherwise. What, the BA isn't gonna have the Tactical Squad rules? Only 100% specific BA units like Sanguinary Guard and Death Company? I don't think thats the case.
Every Space Marine Codex will bring the generic Space Marine units: Tactical, Devastators, etc...
Besides Space Wolves that those are Special Snowflakes even in that case and all of their units are 100% unique

The odd situation for BA and DA is going to be this: Their rules say to use the Tactical/Devastator/Assault/etc rules from the SM section of the Index.

When the SM Codex comes out, which set of rules do they use? Do they have to buy the new Codex and use those rules or are they still legally using the older versions in the Index? Likely they won't change in the new Codex but it's possible.

A valid worry.

Power armour as far as the eye can see....

Requizen wrote:


The odd situation for BA and DA is going to be this: Their rules say to use the Tactical/Devastator/Assault/etc rules from the SM section of the Index.

When the SM Codex comes out, which set of rules do they use? Do they have to buy the new Codex and use those rules or are they still legally using the older versions in the Index? Likely they won't change in the new Codex but it's possible.

A valid worry.

Right, the issue is what happens between the release of the SM codex and the eventual BA codex. Will the BA army list from I:A1 still reference the equivalent SM units from the Index, or do I need to own the SM codex for updated vanilla SM units?

Ok. I understand it now. I assume they are gonna keep those generic units the same just to evade that.
But if they change them... I don't know.
With GW everything is possible

 n0t_u wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

It's not criticism if you don't offer a reasonable alternative. Saying "everything should be free" is not reasonable because a) we know it will never happen and b) it's not necessary for their business model.

It did for a bit.


Of course it's not ideal for them to do so in the long term outside of some stop gap rules really.

It's not realistic for 40k. Or rather, not necessary.

Fantasy was not selling. They were not getting new people, they were barely selling to existing people. They needed a huge shakeup to get people back into the game and get new blood in. Free rules will do that.

40k, even with all the (totally valid) complaints about 6th/7th, was still one of the top, if not the top, selling wargames on the planet. They didn't need free rules to pull people in, new people were starting all the time.


I bet you if AoS is still doing this well or better in 5 years time and all available models are represented in a Battletome, free rules may very well go away since they won't be needed.

The generic units utilized by non-codex chapters are also the least likely to change. Intercessors, Hellblasters, etc are what will be seeing changes most likely. For the vast majority of units it won't matter if you use the index or C:SM because the dataslates will be the same.

So on the actual topic of the SM Codex. Anyone notice what they listed are part of the subfactions in it?


CHAOS LEGIONS?!?!

We've complained so long that the chaos marines are never as good as loyalists, so they just made them normal marines

Requizen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad we all collectively fell for the codex racket yet again. So Blood Angels have to use the units in the "Space Marine" section of the Index but can't use those same units in the upcoming Space Marine codex? Thanks.

1 month in and we'll already need double the amount of books to play due to that bizarre decision.

If you're going to homogenize all the space marine chapters to use a single list (IE index) then it makes sense to include them in a new codex!

This is the part that worries me. Are we going to be stuck in a weird half/half codex situation for armies like Blood Angels like it was back in 3/4E with the little supplemental codices? If I'm running BA after C:SM comes out and I want to run a Sangiunary Novitate, he uses the Apothecary data card with a fancy new BA name. Do I use the one from I:A1, or do I now need to own C:SM as well? But then in the fall when a Codex: Red Marines comes out, will I have a complete list of units there and no longer need C:SM to reference? The whole codex system is one of the worst things about playing GW games, and the last few weeks of everyone having one of five books and being on a simple, level playing field has been so refreshing.

I'm pretty sure that every unit that BA can take will be in their codexs.
Is just absurd otherwise. What, the BA isn't gonna have the Tactical Squad rules? Only 100% specific BA units like Sanguinary Guard and Death Company? I don't think thats the case.
Every Space Marine Codex will bring the generic Space Marine units: Tactical, Devastators, etc...
Besides Space Wolves that those are Special Snowflakes even in that case and all of their units are 100% unique

The odd situation for BA and DA is going to be this: Their rules say to use the Tactical/Devastator/Assault/etc rules from the SM section of the Index.

When the SM Codex comes out, which set of rules do they use? Do they have to buy the new Codex and use those rules or are they still legally using the older versions in the Index? Likely they won't change in the new Codex but it's possible.

A valid worry.

I think worst case scenario you'll use the index and your army's codex. They've already pointed out that the codexes are mostly for special rules, relics etc.

I'm not sure that you will need the vanilla SM codex just to get your tactical squad's rules, since it would probably just tell you rules you already know plus some version of "Bolter Drill or something".

In the unlikely instance of the BA and DA codexes not including basic units like tacticals etc, I really truly think it'll be as simple as applying your army rules to the index entries.

With regards to worries about creep, I don't think that's going to be a huge factor. They've already made it clear *everyone* will be getting a codex in under two years.

This implies they're all being written within a reasonable span of time from each other, so there's not much time or room for one book to really outdistance another.

Just my two cents, but the new GW has my faith, we'll wait and see if I'm proven wrong or not.

 blood reaper wrote:


Furthermore, no one is claiming something to be 'bad for the sake of bad',

yes they are, read the thread and don't ignore the things that invalidate your statments.

and even if this were the case, the critique made in the process wouldn't be invalid.

It doesn't make it invalid. It just makes it pointless whining.

I can complain that my job made me stay late to finish a project, but if there was a valid reason for it and I didn't offer a solution of my own, I'm just whinging for the sake of it.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

I have bad news for you, then...it's going to happen. I don't say this to be cynical, but just by adding this amount of material, there's bound to be things that come out as more powerful. Especially considering how many codices we're likely to see.

There hasn't been codex creep in AoS yet.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Hah, was just wondering if the SM codex will have FW chapters in there. Decided on Red Scorpions to accompany the Fists but realised their chapter tactics will most likely be in Fires of Cyraxus.

Ohhh yes Im just stoked for expanded lore on the Xenos and non SM in general! Forge World Graia tactics please!

Is it possible to ask this on Facebook? Otherwise we would have to sit and wait a long while before I can use Asterion again in ALL HIS GLORY.

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

So you would prefer that the indices were say, $50 like the codices of old? $25 for the ability to play 3-5 armies is literally next to free, and the digital bundles were even cheaper. Not sure what you were expecting but this is about as good as it gets. I, for one, welcome the ability to have each army have what is effectively a supplement. Will be awesome to see how the options increase and the flavor of each army expands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 silent25 wrote:
So on the actual topic of the SM Codex. Anyone notice what they listed are part of the subfactions in it?

Spoiler:

CHAOS LEGIONS?!?!

We've complained so long that the chaos marines are never as good as loyalists, so they just made them normal marines

In my mind, silent changed his avatar just for this post

Requizen wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


Furthermore, no one is claiming something to be 'bad for the sake of bad',

yes they are, read the thread and don't ignore the things that invalidate your statments.

and even if this were the case, the critique made in the process wouldn't be invalid.

It doesn't make it invalid. It just makes it pointless whining.

I can complain that my job made me stay late to finish a project, but if there was a valid reason for it and I didn't offer a solution of my own, I'm just whinging for the sake of it.

Please provide an example of this "bad for the sake of bad".

"It just makes it pointless whining"

This relies on the previous statement of "bad for the sake of bad" being true, yet I've yet to see anyone complaining for the sake of complaining.

gungo wrote:
To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

Can anyone link to the rumour which correctly identified GK as the second release and tell us what the list for stuff after death guard is?

 Prometheum5 wrote:

Requizen wrote:


The odd situation for BA and DA is going to be this: Their rules say to use the Tactical/Devastator/Assault/etc rules from the SM section of the Index.

When the SM Codex comes out, which set of rules do they use? Do they have to buy the new Codex and use those rules or are they still legally using the older versions in the Index? Likely they won't change in the new Codex but it's possible.

A valid worry.

Right, the issue is what happens between the release of the SM codex and the eventual BA codex. Will the BA army list from I:A1 still reference the equivalent SM units from the Index, or do I need to own the SM codex for updated vanilla SM units?

An index isn't a codex, if you refer to the SM section of the index that is pretty black and white to me.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

Can anyone link to the rumour which correctly identified GK as the second release and tell us what the list for stuff after death guard is?

There were no rumors that match the current release schedule. The only one was posted by Spikeybits and is fairly well proven wrong (was called out by all reliable sources and does not have the currently confirmed Codexes on there in the right order, or at all).

Requizen wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Don't like criticism?

Call it whining.

It's not criticism if you don't offer a reasonable alternative. Saying "everything should be free" is not reasonable because a) we know it will never happen and b) it's not necessary for their business model.

It did for a bit.


Of course it's not ideal for them to do so in the long term outside of some stop gap rules really.

It's not realistic for 40k. Or rather, not necessary.

Fantasy was not selling. They were not getting new people, they were barely selling to existing people. They needed a huge shakeup to get people back into the game and get new blood in. Free rules will do that.

40k, even with all the (totally valid) complaints about 6th/7th, was still one of the top, if not the top, selling wargames on the planet. They didn't need free rules to pull people in, new people were starting all the time.


I bet you if AoS is still doing this well or better in 5 years time and all available models are represented in a Battletome, free rules may very well go away since they won't be needed.

Fantasy was selling, however it was going downhill due to the entry requirement. AoS' free rules went away with the sylvaneth battletome in my opinion as in introduced the faction bonuses if I remember right. Datasheets shouldn't really be free outside of stopgaps anyways.

The thing with AoS is it moved to a new system and thus all the old models would be incompatible with their current rules, which is pretty much the same thing that just happened with the transition from 7th to 8th really. The main difference here is like the transition was smaller and thus more smoother than the rather radical one they gave WHFB. 8th ed's release, with this fresh change to reduce the bloat of 7th ed, seemed to drag a lot of people who had quit with 6th and 7th back; which is good for the health of the game. But, that these same people are at risk of feeling slapped in the face and backing away again.
What I'm trying to say is I'm not annoyed with the fact that the datasheets weren't free, as it was more likely they wouldn't than would, but I don't know it just feels like if they had been 8th's release would be more successful in the long run and draw back more of the old players it seems to be trying to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 silent25 wrote:
So on the actual topic of the SM Codex. Anyone notice what they listed are part of the subfactions in it?

Spoiler:

CHAOS LEGIONS?!?!

We've complained so long that the chaos marines are never as good as loyalists, so they just made them normal marines

Codex: Alpha Legion confirmed for 1st 8th ed codex.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

I have bad news for you, then...it's going to happen. I don't say this to be cynical, but just by adding this amount of material, there's bound to be things that come out as more powerful. Especially considering how many codices we're likely to see.

There hasn't been codex creep in AoS yet.

Elves disagree.

Also, savage orruks happened.

gungo wrote:

Slave wrote:

gungo wrote:
To be fair the rumours didn't say no codecs soon they said the list and titles and timelines of 2 a month is fake.
And this article proves it's wrong as greyknights are the second codex release.

I'm actually glad my main army is not the first codex as gw is still fixing the index versions of the dataslates which I'm sure are 99% copy and paste. Gw needs at least 1 more major FAQ/errata to fix a few more mistakes and some major imbalance issues. Primarily I think plasmaguns/pistols need to be nerfed to str6 base str7 overcharged. As this will make grenade launchers viable and deep strike melta viable alternatives which mathematically plasmaguns out perform both other weapon options.

10 codex in 5 months is indeed 2 per month.........

except its 6 months since they are coming in July.

*BEFORE CHRISTMAS* So, closer to 5. Put your pitchfork down, heretic.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

If there is codex creep.....I will not be so happy.

I have bad news for you, then...it's going to happen. I don't say this to be cynical, but just by adding this amount of material, there's bound to be things that come out as more powerful. Especially considering how many codices we're likely to see.

There hasn't been codex creep in AoS yet.

Elves disagree.

Also, savage orruks happened.

Elves? Codex creep means that successive releases are stronger than previous ones. Elves were sub-par right at the GHB launch, battletome releases have nothing to do with it. As for bonesplittaz, its common knowledge that the only problem is one battalion (formation in 40k lingo) out of the whole thing.

 luke1705 wrote:

Rynner wrote:
It won't be Sisters.

This feels like a massive cash grab. I'm actually pretty upset that after buying all 5 indexes and the rule book they are going to get invalided pretty shortly after.

They should have made the indexes free or next to free. This is kind of outrageous and upsetting.

Most of us are going to buy the rules for the addition at least twice at this point.

So you would prefer that the indices were say, $50 like the codices of old? $25 for the ability to play 3-5 armies is literally next to free, and the digital bundles were even cheaper. Not sure what you were expecting but this is about as good as it gets. I, for one, welcome the ability to have each army have what is effectively a supplement. Will be awesome to see how the options increase and the flavor of each army expands.

The AoS Hardbacks have been $35 - $40 followed by $25 soft backs, but I'm not sure that will be the case here. GW has abandoned some of the cost friendly measures they had in place for AoS already. Still the battalions, army wide rules, and points made buying the army books worth it for AoS.

 luke1705 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 silent25 wrote:
So on the actual topic of the SM Codex. Anyone notice what they listed are part of the subfactions in it?

Spoiler:

CHAOS LEGIONS?!?!

We've complained so long that the chaos marines are never as good as loyalists, so they just made them normal marines

In my mind, silent changed his avatar just for this post

Phear the evil little loli war criminal.

Back in 3rd edition you had to have the SM codex along with the BA and DA book to play those armies.

Shame really, only hope we do actually get "Chatper Tactics" for all Factions - or if not Marines pay for power boosts.

I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

I bet the release list will be:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Chaos Space Marines
4. Death Guard
5. Primaris Marines
6. Blood Angels
7. Space Wolves
8. Dark Angels
9. Thousand Sons
10. Deathwatch
11. World Eaters
Then next year we will see:
12. Emperors Childen
13. Chaos Daemons
14. Chaos Daemons - Nurgle
15. Chaos Daemons - Tzeentch
16. Chaos Daemons - Khrone
17. Chaos Daemons - Slaanesh

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
I am mad that I literally ordered my index 1 last night, and because the Space Marine Codex isn't available for pre-order yet, I just wasted $20. Only 2 days back in the game and GW let me down already.


EDIT: Spelling

I am in the same boat as you. Bought my index last week (they were sold out until then). It's completely useless in 2 weeks lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I bet the release list will be:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Chaos Space Marines
4. Death Guard
5. Primaris Marines
6. Blood Angels
7. Space Wolves
8. Dark Angels
9. Thousand Sons
10. Deathwatch
11. World Eaters
Then next year we will see:
12. Emperors Childen
13. Chaos Daemons
14. Chaos Daemons - Nurgle
15. Chaos Daemons - Tzeentch
16. Chaos Daemons - Khrone
17. Chaos Daemons - Slaanesh

Primaris marines are obviously in the adept astartes codex - it has a primaris marine on the front.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I bet the release list will be:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Chaos Space Marines
4. Death Guard
5. Primaris Marines
6. Blood Angels
7. Space Wolves
8. Dark Angels
9. Thousand Sons
10. Deathwatch
11. World Eaters
Then next year we will see:
12. Emperors Childen
13. Chaos Daemons
14. Chaos Daemons - Nurgle
15. Chaos Daemons - Tzeentch
16. Chaos Daemons - Khrone
17. Chaos Daemons - Slaanesh

Not sure about a separate Primaris one. The marine on the cover is a Primaris Marine. They might have everything planned so far in there.

Well this thread just saved me $25, $50 or $75

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I bet the release list will be:
1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knights
3. Chaos Space Marines
4. Death Guard
5. Primaris Marines
6. Blood Angels
7. Space Wolves
8. Dark Angels
9. Thousand Sons
10. Deathwatch
11. World Eaters
Then next year we will see:
12. Emperors Childen
13. Chaos Daemons
14. Chaos Daemons - Nurgle
15. Chaos Daemons - Tzeentch
16. Chaos Daemons - Khrone
17. Chaos Daemons - Slaanesh

Urggh that looks dismal :(

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

So you're happy you saved fifteen quid so you can't play until sometime between 2-6 months after the new edition dropped minimum, and have missed out on a bunch of extra rules which may have allowed you to experiment with another army?

Gimme a fething break, there's a whole chunk of people in the thread who need to get some fething perspective.

OK now...when will the leaks start showing the new rules???? I have an army on the table, I need to decide what color to slap on them.

I dunno about you... but, I'm excited as all hell about this aggressive Codex release schedules...

'member when you had to play the old Dark Eldar, Sisters, Necron codices for years spanning over multiple editions?

I 'member...

My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

 whembly wrote:
I dunno about you... but, I'm excited as all hell about this aggressive Codex release schedules...

'member when you had to play the old Dark Eldar, Sisters, Necron codices for years spanning over multiple editions?

I 'member...

Only "Major Factions" get a Codex - apparently thats the usual snowflake Chapters of marines - I haev several Marine armies including Wolves - but its depressing as hell that my other armies have to wait whilst the slightly different Chapters get a shiny Codex instead.

Except all the sub factions they've said will get rules included in the codexes for the more major ones?

 Bull0 wrote:
oh great, yet another 40k thread. Can't have enough of those! And confirming something that was obviously happening? I might need a sit down!

Now complete with complaining! But wait, there's more: complaining about complaining!

Glad I skipped the imperial indices.

I really really REALLY hate them going back to chapter codexes, it's unnecessary and just a blatant cash grab. It's annoying for stockists and annoying for gamers who get all codexes.
It also slows down releases...

I bet at least 6 of the 10 codexes before christmas are power armour related. The only power armour codex I'd like to see is Sisters of Battle or Adeptus Ministorum as it seems they will be now, then again knowing GW Adeptus Ministorum will probably be a separate codex as well.

When it comes to codexes less is good, more is not. The more codexes there are the longer non SM players have to wait for updates.
We all know that SM HAS TO get new stuff every single year, so if GW had 6months of AoS and 6months of 40K a year then 5 of those 40K slots could be other armies but more likely would be 3 non power armour releases in a year.
Then what about codex updates, do they do them in order? Of course not, SM will get updates before everyone else and every year. I bet some armies will get updates every other year and GWs response will be that they simply didn't have time to get around to them, yet SM will of course get updates.

Now with the Primaris marines we will probably see a kit for them every other month. When each chapter codex comes out there will probably be a Primaris marines release to go with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Primaris marines had 10-15 different kits before the end of the year. That's more than some armies have in total but because they are Spess Mehreneez they have priority over everything else.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except all the sub factions they've said will get rules included in the codexes for the more major ones?

Where does it say that? I seem to have missed it - or are just refering to sub faction Marines? Thanks

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except all the sub factions they've said will get rules included in the codexes for the more major ones?

Where does it say that? I seem to have missed it - or are just refering to sub faction Marines? Thanks

Or, more completely..

For you gamers out there, one very exciting addition are new rules representing specific sub-groups in many of the major factions; these range from old classics like the Space Marine Chapters or Chaos Space Marine Legions to returning rules for individual craftworlds, as well as previously unexplored groupings like Necron dynasties and Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These will be included in each codex.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, more completely..

For you gamers out there, one very exciting addition are new rules representing specific sub-groups in many of the major factions; these range from old classics like the Space Marine Chapters or Chaos Space Marine Legions to returning rules for individual craftworlds, as well as previously unexplored groupings like Necron dynasties and Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These will be included in each codex.

Thanks - but without definiation of what is a "Major Faction" beyond model range becuase its nothing to do with universe importance, we don't know which factions / sub factions will be entirely ignored - well except Sisters of Battle of course :(

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

It has happend before and it will happen again - sadly.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, more completely..

For you gamers out there, one very exciting addition are new rules representing specific sub-groups in many of the major factions; these range from old classics like the Space Marine Chapters or Chaos Space Marine Legions to returning rules for individual craftworlds, as well as previously unexplored groupings like Necron dynasties and Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These will be included in each codex.

Thanks - but without definiation of what is a "Major Faction" beyond model range becuase its nothing to do with universe importance, we don't know which factions / sub factions will be entirely ignored - well except Sisters of Battle of course :(

You've got 30 years odd of precedent to make an educated guess.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

So you're happy you saved fifteen quid so you can't play until sometime between 2-6 months after the new edition dropped minimum, and have missed out on a bunch of extra rules which may have allowed you to experiment with another army?

Gimme a fething break, there's a whole chunk of people in the thread who need to get some fething perspective.

-he thinks that a person "not buying" the indices means that they don't have them

If I wasn't on my phone I'd post a picture of a smug anime girl. You'll just have to use your imagination. She is extremely smug.

As far as what releases, I'm confident that we'll get at least Orks and Eldar this year. Maybe Tau.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

So you're happy you saved fifteen quid so you can't play until sometime between 2-6 months after the new edition dropped minimum, and have missed out on a bunch of extra rules which may have allowed you to experiment with another army?

Gimme a fething break, there's a whole chunk of people in the thread who need to get some fething perspective.

You mean the indexes and rules that were also leaked and posted online?

Im glad I only bought one Index ( but i have all of them).

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, more completely..

For you gamers out there, one very exciting addition are new rules representing specific sub-groups in many of the major factions; these range from old classics like the Space Marine Chapters or Chaos Space Marine Legions to returning rules for individual craftworlds, as well as previously unexplored groupings like Necron dynasties and Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These will be included in each codex.

Thanks - but without definiation of what is a "Major Faction" beyond model range becuase its nothing to do with universe importance, we don't know which factions / sub factions will be entirely ignored - well except Sisters of Battle of course :(

You've got 30 years odd of precedent to make an educated guess.

I'm guessing that we currently have 21 factions that warrant a Codex, based on 7th Edition and how the Indexes are split up. I've listed them out earlier in this thread.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

So you're happy you saved fifteen quid so you can't play until sometime between 2-6 months after the new edition dropped minimum, and have missed out on a bunch of extra rules which may have allowed you to experiment with another army?

Gimme a fething break, there's a whole chunk of people in the thread who need to get some fething perspective.

-he thinks that a person "not buying" the indices means that they don't have them

If I wasn't on my phone I'd post a picture of a smug anime girl. You'll just have to use your imagination. She is extremely smug.

As far as what releases, I'm confident that we'll get at least Orks and Eldar this year. Maybe Tau.

Yeah, I'm that naive.

I'm not above using alternative stores myself, but for something so cheap and readily accessible, it actually seems really petty not to buy it, plus there's potential issues based on where you may need to play.

Either way, crowing you're glad you didn't buy something not, as would be needed to make the point, because you had "foresight" but because you were too much of a tightwad to pay fifteen quid for a hard copy or however much a legitimate digi copy is and ripped it off instead undermines his point.

Not including forgeworld in the codexes. That debunks that rumor.

Sucks for people like the Necrons who only have a single forgeworld dynasty to buy a whole book to get their <dynasty> rules for (probably 3-5 years from now).

On the other hand Nids have nothing to get they don't already have from the index, and things like GSC don't have gak.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm so happy I had the Farsight to not grab any indices. Now I can just grab the codex for my army (next year) since no way in hell is GW releasing any Xenos other than craftworld this year. I suspect some of the updated xenos codices will get released since so many of the rumours have said that they want next year to have a lot of xenos focus.

To all those who bought some. I am so sorry for your loss. YOu have officially been beta tested video game style. Welcome to new GW.

I don't think there was enough time to even beta test them. They've probably put to printers some months ago. GW knew they were going to do this. I can understand (and accept) that the indexes will be replaced over time but the way they have done this is simply a cash grab. They should just have released the initial pdfs for free, let people know the plan and then put a small number of books on sale that would prefer the books over print outs. I can understand people's frustration at this. Personally I would have been embarrassed to have put out that blog post.

Same old GW I'm afraid.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

To be clear... I have no problem with rules coming with models. I think this is a great idea. I just wish they included free rules with ALL models and not just for those new ones. When Warmahordes Mk3 recently released, stores received unit cards to hand out with pre-Mk3 product sales. GW could easily have done the same thing. They chose not to, presumably to force people into spending more on rules.

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
My only concern is whether the new C:SM will have all of the Primaris rules. Will it have the rules for models still not released at time of publication? If, for example, that Repulsor tank is to be released a month after the codex, will it still be in the codex? I really hope GW's policy of "no model = no rules" won't apply here.

The Codex will NOT contain rules for unreleased models. They've already said that units like the new Primaris Dreadnought will not be in the codex. Rules will be in the box and Matched Play points will be 'available online'.

From the Codex FAQ article...
"Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

So, if you're one of the lucky people who get a Codex and new models, you'll potentially need the Core Rules, your Index, your Codex, the rules in the box for new units and some sort of downloaded file for points. Nice and easy.

Just so we're up front about this, pulling from the Codex FAQ:

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

They said nothing about the new Primaris Dreadnought not being in the Codex. The Redemptor isn't in the Index. That's not something that should be surprising to anyone since the Index contents have been known for awhile.

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

To be clear... I have no problem with rules coming with models. I think this is a great idea. I just wish they included free rules with ALL models and not just for those new ones. When Warmahordes Mk3 recently released, stores received unit cards to hand out with pre-Mk3 product sales. GW could easily have done the same thing. They chose not to, presumably to force people into spending more on rules.

They should be releasing the dataslates for free. It only provide power not points. It only provides the rules for weapon options on the sheet. Most options a model can take are not on there. It provides none of the army wide rules or psychic powers.

You still have a lot of reasons to buy the books, but anyone can buy a box, download the dataslate, and start playing open games to learn.

Not releasing the dataslates for free is notonly dumb, it's counter to their whole easier to pick up and play philosophy they seem to be running with.

 Kriswall wrote:
[
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Oh please X-Wing and Armada are good games but the "free" rules are a total smokescreen. The card system(and the tokens, so many tokens) means your quite often buying ships you have no interest in or use for, just to get the upgrade cards and rules.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Do people not buy books anymore? They were £15 pounds. You can't complain about a private company releasing products which are entirely optional to buy just because you can't afford them. Look at nearly every other company operating. New smartphones, new computers, new fashion... stuff is updated, new products are released and you can decide if you want to spend your money on them, or not. GW owes you nothing and you owe GW nothing.

So, um, 10 codex's and it looks like all of them for what I have, at ~$30 so some $300 just in books before Christmas.
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?
No it is not a shock, they ALL will be replaced eventually, it is the speed of just getting past buying all Indexes' and we are into a new flood of books as replacements.
If they were particularly evil they can "miss" defining a few units and say they are "still" covered in the Index which you need to buy as well!
Looks like the local gaming store will know me better than before with the regular product coming out.
Some core rules are becoming troublesome however, hopefully a FAQ or two may address them.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I'm really happy to have a codex. I play Raven Guard and today they play exactly the same as Ultra Marines or Imperial Fists. My jump troops are as good as Salamanders give or take a character. It cost me £15 to play the new game for a month, bit of a wounder but if I had to wait for Christmas for chapter tactics I'd have need much worse.

 luke1705 wrote:

So you would prefer that the indices were say, $50 like the codices of old? $25 for the ability to play 3-5 armies is literally next to free, and the digital bundles were even cheaper. Not sure what you were expecting but this is about as good as it gets.

Well, no, it's not 'as good as it gets'. If the indexes were only ever going to be a stopgap until the codex was released, they could have simply released the index rules as part of the core rules, as they did with 2nd edition and 3rd edition.

Paying for a book that is almost instantly invalidated by another book is always going to annoy people.

Aspects of Thom wrote:
I'm really happy to have a codex. I play Raven Guard and today they play exactly the same as Ultra Marines or Imperial Fists. My jump troops are as good as Salamanders give or take a character. It cost me £15 to play the new game for a month, bit of a wounder but if I had to wait for Christmas for chapter tactics I'd have need much worse.

Agreed. I am looking forward to my Crimson Fists being differentiated from Raven Guard. I wonder if they will be getting their own Chapter Rules this time around.

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
[
What other table top miniatures game has such an expensive set of rules? The others in the top 5 aren't even remotely close. Star Wars X-Wing is... $0 for the rule set? Star Wars Armada is $30, assuming you want to play the Corelllian Conflict campaign. For regular play, it's $0. I'm not a Warmahordes guy, but it looks like the core rules are free and unit rules are included with the models? ...so $0? Seeing a trend here? Obviously, not every game has free rules, but over $1000 for a full set is pretty expensive.

My main complaint is that the rule set is super expensive and yet most of the rule books only have a handful of pages of actual rules. The rest is fluff or narrative missions. I don't want to pay $50 for a Codex that has only a handful of useful pages.

Oh please X-Wing and Armada are good games but the "free" rules are a total smokescreen. The card system(and the tokens, so many tokens) means your quite often buying ships you have no interest in or use for, just to get the upgrade cards and rules.

There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
So, um, 10 codex's and it looks like all of them for what I have, at ~$30 so some $300 just in books before Christmas.
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?
No it is not a shock, they ALL will be replaced eventually, it is the speed of just getting past buying all Indexes' and we are into a new flood of books as replacements.
If they were particularly evil they can "miss" defining a few units and say they are "still" covered in the Index which you need to buy as well!
Looks like the local gaming store will know me better than before with the regular product coming out.
Some core rules are becoming troublesome however, hopefully a FAQ or two may address them.

Codexes are more likely to be around 50 USD each. I'm not sure how much that is in monopoly money... err... CAD.

 Talizvar wrote:
There wouldn't be any new models at all for the launch of these right? Right?

Answered in the Warhammer Community post:

Is every army getting new models too?
Some of them. Certain armies will get new miniatures alongside their new codex, and others won’t. Don’t worry though, our miniatures designers are working hard and we’ll get to all of you eventually – we’re well aware you all want new models for your chosen army.

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

WAKE UP SHEEPLE! THIS IS ALL A PLOT BY GW TO STEAL YOUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!!!!!

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

That's why I don't buy newspapers. Every day the previous day's version is invalidated.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

You realize this isn't happening in a vacuum right?

The hobby isn't only GW products.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

I'm guessing that comparison made more sense in your head. If you don't see the difference between a novel and a reference book, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

No. No. You're definitely right. Your one anecdote supersedes the last several years of release history.

Also, feel free to ignore my commentary. Nobody made you arbiter of this discussion.

To make my point a little clearer, since it's obviously missing the mark here, models released within a month of a new Codex will probably have rules in the Codex. Models released more than a month after a new Codex probably won't. You'll either have to get your rules from multiple sources (Index, Codex and box rules) OR you'll get your rules from a single source and never get new models (at least until the next version of the Codex comes out).

It would be great if all of an army's unit rules and army wide rules came from one source. I don't think it'll ever happen.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I've really enjoyed my Indexes. They were good quality publications that have given me hours of entertainment. Love the fact the new books are coming out at such a quick rate. Those who are crying about the Indexes becoming "invalidated", what do they do with other books? Do they finish reading the last page and scream they have been ripped of because it is no longer "valid" for them, in that they have already read the story?

I'm guessing that comparison made more sense in your head. If you don't see the difference between a novel and a reference book, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

You're right. An index book is far better as you can return to it again and again and again! A novel can only be read once (Maybe twice) I've poured over these Indexes (and will continue to do so) far more than if they had just been novels. Thanks for reminding me, Indexes are far better value than novels!

 NobodyXY wrote:
Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

You realize this isn't happening in a vacuum right?

The hobby isn't only GW products.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

Pretty much this. I like what I'm seeing, but a leopard doesn't change its spots. I'm fully expecting 8th Edition to have a fragmented and expensive rule set, just like 7th Edition.

 Hollow wrote:
You're right. An index book is far better as you can return to it again and again and again!

Until it is superceded by a new book.

People, for the most part, don't mind buying rulebooks. They do mind buying rulebooks that are only valid for a month before being replaced by a newer book.

If you don't have a problem with that, good for you. It's not as unreasonable a stance as you're trying to make it out to be, though.

A novel can only be read once (Maybe twice)

That's just crazy talk...

 Kriswall wrote:
[X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

When those one or two upgrades only come with an aces box or epic ship, things start to add up pretty quickly though.

GW collect there gameplay rules and general setting background into one book, with the rules and more detailed background for a specific faction in another book. FFG parcel the gameplay and faction rules out piecemeal with the models, while Disney handles the background Both methods have there positives and negatives but either way its done, if you want more than the bare bones experience your gonna have to pay more. I'm not going to pretend that 40k is a cheap hobby. But "insanely" more expensive? Guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one

That said when GW release a new version of there stupidly big SM codex in 12 months time because they have added three more Primaris units I reserve the right to be grumpy

I literally do not understand what the people are complaining about. That GW is releasing codices? We knew that they would. Perhaps you and your gaming group can agree to play with indexes only if you hate the codices so much?

 NobodyXY wrote:
Everyone I disagree with is a crybaby right?

Depends on how poorly they present their argument.

I also love the gate-keeping about money. If you care about value, you shouldn't play GW Games?

This is because people are making a disingenuous argument that they now need to spend over $1000 to play the game.

I see things differently. But I guess you'd trade players for more things to buy right?

If this is the sort of the that drives a player away then they're probably not someone i'd play with.

It's not a book, it's a set of rules. I couldn't care less about the reprinted fluff(again, and again and again). But I'm forced to if I want to play the game. Maybe if you weren't so willing to artificially inflate the cost of the game, it would still be number 1. Instead it's slipping.

I'm a competitive player, but fluff *makes* the game. Without fluff you wouldn't have green army men and not 40K.

This reboot was supposed to fix a bunch of the issues with the game and a lot has been fixed, I'd rather we don't slip back into the same old GW, thanks.

The old GW would have taken 4 years to release everyone's book. The old GW wouldn't do a yearly point update outside of a codex either.

Like needing 2 or more books open, plus your phone, to play the damn thing.

I'm doubtful that will be the case. From reading the FAQ and based on an educated guess I won't want to buy the CSM book as a Thousand Sons player. They most certainly intend to split out the main legions with their other versions of units. Any other legion will be in CSM.

Like needing to buy an (old) fluff book for a couple pages of new rules. twice a year.

Having supplements for the sake of generating a quick buck. twice a year.

Time will tell.

See the new and thriving community of 50+ die back down into the half a dozen guys who have been holding the torch all alone for years.The new energy is fickle and will wane if not properly maintained.

You know the best way to keep a community healthy? A lack of negativity.

General Hobbs wrote:


OK now...when will the leaks start showing the new rules???? I have an army on the table, I need to decide what color to slap on them.

The colour you like or the one of the chapter you like the fluff of.

it looks like it's confirmed that chapters will get rules with codexes thats good.

Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

You know, i almost bought 3 Indexes for all 6 of my armies though the day before pre-order I wondered how often I would play all 6 armies before new dexes dropped and decided to just buy just the chaos index.

Even while picking up my rulebook and index I had to resist the urge to buy xenos 1 and 2 just too have them even though i knew I was committed to 1k sons plus i all ready had the pdfs.

I can understand if people feel ripped though it was foreseeable. If I knew was going to play 6 armies off the bat I might have bought 3 Indexes.

Overall I think indexes were great to get folks going day 1 and I am happy with an accelerated schedule for new dexes.

I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. If each codex came with a free back rub, half the playerbase would complain it didn't come with a free tummy rub instead.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fair enough. They instead heavily imply that the rules won't be in the Codex. In any case, any new model that is released AFTER a Codex comes out will have the issue of separate rules and the create the exact issue I mentioned. If you want access to everything that your army has to offer, as a Space Marines player, you'll need an Index, a Codex and whatever rules come with new models. You'll be pulling some point values from an Index, some from a Codex and some from a downloaded file.

I don't know how in the world you get this nonsense about the Dreadnought not being in the codex. It's disingenuous at best, as I know you're aware of the way they've done things for Age of Sigmar, to suggest that just because a thing won't be available at the exact time of the Codex releasing it won't be in the book.

I gave you the point. That's what 'fair enough' meant. It's also perfectly clear based on the past several years worth of evidence that GW will NOT release rules for a model that has not yet been released. If the Codex is released in week 1 and the Dread is released week 2, historical evidence suggests that the Dread will not be in the Codex. Yes, I doubt this will happen on 'day one', but I do think it's almost certain to happen as time goes on. 40k has way too many factions to support model releases being tied to Codex releases. We'll eventually get model releases outside of a Codex release. That means we'll need Core Rules, Index, Codex and box rules for many armies. Long gone are the days when you'd buy a softbound Codex for $20 and have a reasonable expectation that you were good on rules for that army.

I think that this point it's best to ignore Kriswall's commentary.

His "historical evidence" isn't. The Kharadron Overlords book is the most recent example of a codex releasing in week 1 with a limited number of things, but it most certainly included rules for week 2 and 3.

No. No. You're definitely right. Your one anecdote supersedes the last several years of release history.

What was the last time we had your example then?

You claim to have several years of release history to go on, it should be fairly easy to go with. I've genuinely been trying to find something and I can't beyond the Stormcast stuff from the initial AoS launch. We didn't have the Dracoth stuff at launch, it got split off into the "Extremis" book and then was later rolled in when they did the new version of the book...but AoS has gone through several different types of army books at this juncture.

Also, feel free to ignore my commentary. Nobody made you arbiter of this discussion.

To make my point a little clearer, since it's obviously missing the mark here, models released within a month of a new Codex will probably have rules in the Codex. Models released more than a month after a new Codex probably won't. You'll either have to get your rules from multiple sources (Index, Codex and box rules) OR you'll get your rules from a single source and never get new models (at least until the next version of the Codex comes out).

You're moving goalposts again. Your claim after me pointing out that it says the Index was that they are "heavily implying" that the rules for the Dreadnought won't be in the Codex and that Space Marines players will need an Index, a Codex, and whatever rules come with new models.
Here's the quote again from the Warhammer Community FAQ:

Warhammer Community FAQ wrote:If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

They're talking about Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves. Nowhere does it say anything about Space Marines players needing the Index, the Codex and rules from the boxes to run an army without some weird caveats.

Those caveats?

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?
You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those. You’ll also need it for using some of the more unusual models such as the 30th Anniversary Space Marine, the Legion of the Damned and the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

So. A limited run model, models that might end up getting their own mini-dex rather than being rolled into the book, and a variant on the Land Raider that was sold for awhile but isn't anymore.

Did you really expect them to be in the Codex?

It would be great if all of an army's unit rules and army wide rules came from one source. I don't think it'll ever happen.

What other books do I need to run Kharadron Overlords? Stormcast Eternals? Blades of Khorne? Disciples of Tzeentch?

When the DG dex.hits we will see if it includes data sheets for any models that can take the Death Guard keyword.

Just like I hope a 1k Sons Dex has data sheets for helbrutes, drakes etc... Anything that can take the 1000 sons key word.

 EnTyme wrote:

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. .

Or the ability of others to trivialise complaints they disagree with.

These discussions would go considerably more smoothly if people could accept that different opinions to their own aren't inherently meritless.

 EnTyme wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Welp I have learned that there is a great release schedule of content coming up, and that there is truly no limit to how bitchy the fanbase can be.

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. If each codex came with a free back rub, half the playerbase would complain it didn't come with a free tummy rub instead.

Well sure. The tummy rub is a better value to most gamers.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

Nor am I, but probably for a different reason... It makes sense that they would work through an index at a time, rather than having three books out there that all have partially obsolete content.

Do we really need different books for all the "different" marines?
I don't even want different books for different daemons, unless they go one book for each god (mortal and daemon), like in AoS.

Requizen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I sincerely hope everyone who expresses views like this ends up having to pinch pennies one day and that there's somebody there waiting for the moment they express some minor frustration about the price of something to smugly interject that they should be off doing some plebby hobby for plebs like collecting cardboard boxes or something fnar fnar.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Who do we need a separate book for Imperial Guard, Orks, and Eldar. They are all just high model count armies with a 5+ armor save? The reality is that they are different armies, use different models, have different rules, and frequently play very differently from one another. And the power armor varieties are no exception to this.

If I was Games Workshop, I would do whatever I wanted because while GW is predictable so is the reaction from people playing it:

Make many different books: "I can't believe I have to buy all these books to play my armies, they should put them in one book! GW is forcing me to buy many books."
Make one Codex Power Armor book: "Why should I buy this giant book, I only play X army and don't need any of these other rules. GW is forcing me to buy a big expensive book instead of giving us smaller books so that I can only buy what I need."
Require a new Codex anytime new models are released: "GW is forcing me to buy a book to keep my army current!"
Include free rules for models released after a codex: "GW is forcing me to carry around pieces of paper!"

If you bought all 5 of the Index books, you are playing with at least 5 armies. I know discounters exist, but if you are playing with 5 armies, and are hoping to keep on playing with 5 armies, why are you complaining about paying $125 for the rules to play every single unit you currently own? You'd spend at least $200 to buy a single troop choice for 5 armies, and for almost half that price you get the rules for every model.

If you don't play every single color of power armor, you don't need to get every Codex [color] Power Armor. If you play an army that doesn't get a codex until next year, you got $25 fairly comprehensive rules for your army. I think GW is on the right track with what they are doing, but I'm playing Codex: Dark Green Power Armor unless it's Black Power Armor of Bone Colored Bulky Power Armor.

 d-usa wrote:
So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Actually, you probably could.

 DarkBlack wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


OK now...when will the leaks start showing the new rules???? I have an army on the table, I need to decide what color to slap on them.

The colour you like or the one of the chapter you like the fluff of.

FWIW, this is the primary reason I rather despise chapter rules.

 d-usa wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm glad more books are coming.

I'm sad that they're all the same army.

I'm also not surprised.

They're not all the same army. You have Marines in normal armor, Marines in shiny armor, Marines in spikey armor and Marines in dirty armor. They're not even a little similar!

So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Who do we need a separate book for Imperial Guard, Orks, and Eldar. They are all just high model count armies with a 5+ armor save? The reality is that they are different armies, use different models, have different rules, and frequently play very differently from one another. And the power armor varieties are no exception to this.

If I was Games Workshop, I would do whatever I wanted because while GW is predictable so is the reaction from people playing it:

Make many different books: "I can't believe I have to buy all these books to play my armies, they should put them in one book! GW is forcing me to buy many books."
Make one Codex Power Armor book: "Why should I buy this giant book, I only play X army and don't need any of these other rules. GW is forcing me to buy a big expensive book instead of giving us smaller books so that I can only buy what I need."
Require a new Codex anytime new models are released: "GW is forcing me to buy a book to keep my army current!"
Include free rules for models released after a codex: "GW is forcing me to carry around pieces of paper!"

If you bought all 5 of the Index books, you are playing with at least 5 armies. I know discounters exist, but if you are playing with 5 armies, and are hoping to keep on playing with 5 armies, why are you complaining about paying $125 for the rules to play every single unit you currently own? You'd spend at least $200 to buy a single troop choice for 5 armies, and for almost half that price you get the rules for every model.

If you don't play every single color of power armor, you don't need to get every Codex [color] Power Armor. If you play an army that doesn't get a codex until next year, you got $25 fairly comprehensive rules for your army. I think GW is on the right track with what they are doing, but I'm playing Codex: Dark Green Power Armor unless it's Black Power Armor of Bone Colored Bulky Power Armor.

those first few sentences are so cringey. Like listening to someone whine about only being able to buy a 25ft yacht instead of a 35ft. Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I think this is amazing news! 10 codexes in just over 6 months? It has always been (a valid criticism) that a Codex took too long. Putting them out at a rate of nearly 2 a month! Woohoo!

"But It means we need to buy them and they cost money"

Are you freaking kidding me? People will literally complain about anything.

You have to remember that not everyone has enough money that they can freely buy these things and not feel that it has been wasted if it is invalidated after only a few months. It is reasonable to expect to get some life out of your purchases. That £15-£30 could have gone on models that they would have preferred to buy rather than a book (and which they might only use part of).

Warlord with Gates of Antares shows what they should do in these circumstances. Free pdf downloads when they add knew units before eventually bringing out a supplement later on.

Look, anyone has the right to do what they want with their money and time.

But if a person is in a position where they have to pinch pennies to have a hobby budget, Warhammer probably just isn't the right hobby choice for them. £15 for books that last a month and will only be partially invalidated (still will be rules in there that won't be anywhere else) isn't even that bad in this hobby.

I sincerely hope everyone who expresses views like this ends up having to pinch pennies one day and that there's somebody there waiting for the moment they express some minor frustration about the price of something to smugly interject that they should be off doing some plebby hobby for plebs like collecting cardboard boxes or something fnar fnar.

If I was at the point where a $40 book would break the bank, I wouldn't be playing Warhammer.

I would love to collect antique cars. I love roadsters and would like to have a garage with 50 of them that I could care for, maintain, and take out for drives. But you don't see me complaining about the price of cars. If someone can't live within their means, the price of luxury hobbies are not to blame.

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who are not blind.

Fixed that for you.

I have several Marine armies - am I so entitled that I think Marines should have priority over all others - nope.

Do I - like you apparently - feel that I should not only have one overarching Codex but mutiple codexes - and first and screw everyone else. Nope.

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

Not from FFG, no, but there's about a bajillion squadron builders and image libraries where everything is freely available that FFG make zero effort to control. Unlike GW.

I think you probably can get all the cards from FFG for free now, they're just scattered across every little news article they've ever published.

So, I just noticed this little gem.

You can expect to see around 10 new codexes before Christmas

That's a bit ambitious given how codexes were parceled ouet over years in previous editions.

 Breotan wrote:
So, I just noticed this little gem.

You can expect to see around 10 new codexes before Christmas

That's a bit ambitious given how codexes were parceled ouet over years in previous editions.

To be fair, a lot of the content is probably already written in the indices with just a few modifications

Dudeface wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

Well, looking at two things.

Looking at just the fact that there are some specific rules for these two units:

Iron Hands and Raven Guard both use the same book, they are both Codex Complaint.
Blood Angels can also chose from inferno pistols and hand flamers when picking equipment for the sergeants, and a heavy flamer option for the tactical squad. They cannot pick a Land Speeder Storm for their Scouts.



Looking at the fact that nobody is building an army of tactical and scout marines and nothing else:

Forces using different books are going to have different tactical and scout tactics because the rest of the army is completely different. A tactical squad that is supporting Deathwing or Ravenwing is going to be different than a tactical squad that is supporting a Death Company and both of those are going to have different layouts and tactics than a pure codex complaint army. Heck, in previous editions even armies in the plain Chaos Space Marine codex played differently with chapter tactics and that's without adding different units into the mix.

True, they can take the Power Armor Index, double the size, charge $100+ for it, and declare that if you play anything with power armor you have to pay that or not have rules. And people would bitch, rightly so. It would make as much sense as making you buy Codex Xenos 1 and the rules for different armies, just so you can play Necron of Codex Xenos 2 and rules for Tyranids just so you can play Orks. They are different armies, have different models, and different play styles. Arguing that every army is the same because they all wear Power Armor is as stupid as saying every army is the same because they don't wear Power Armor.

The legitimate complaint from the non power armor crowd is that power armor always gets the new stuff first. Space Marine is always first, then every other variant of power armor. I can get behind that complaint. Other armies should get their turn, and I have no problem agreeing that there should be some sort of good guy/bad guy/power armor/non power armor rotation. That complaint is 100% valid.

So if you want to argue that [color] Power Armor shouldn't get the first 5 books because they are the same army anyway, then I think you are completely wrong.
But if you want to argue that [color] Power Armor shouldn't get the first 5 books because there are a lot of armies that don't wear power armor that need a book as well, then I am not disagreeing with you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who are not blind.

Fixed that for you.

I have several Marine armies - am I so entitled that I think Marines should have priority over all others - nope.

Do I - like you apparently - feel that I should not only have one overarching Codex but mutiple codexes - and first and screw everyone else. Nope.

I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


There is no smokescreen. The rules are 100% free. You're talking about something entirely different. If you want an optimized tournament list, you might have to buy a few boxes for one or two upgrade cards/bits. That's true in many games and has nothing to do with the cost of the rule set. It's more of a casual vs. competitive discussion. Many a player has purchased a box of Devastators just for certain heavy weapons, knowing that they'll never field the extra bodies. So...

X-Wing/Armada - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade cards. Full rules cost $0.
Warhammer 40k - Optimized lists sometimes require you to buy product you don't really want for one or two upgrade bits. Full rules cost $1000+.

Sounds like 40k is still insanely more expensive from a rules standpoint.

So I can download all the cards from FFG? Because all I see are the core rules and FAQ, which is exactly what GW offers for free.

Not from FFG, no, but there's about a bajillion squadron builders and image libraries where everything is freely available that FFG make zero effort to control. Unlike GW.

Does FFG require physical cards to play in FFG tournaments?

Will TS have separate book like DG? I don't think so but I hope not. That would mean waiting a year to play my army with GOOD PSYCIC POWERS. Rather than 4.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So if I have 2,000 points of models and paint them up to be the Generic Powered Armored Sons of John Doe, I can take Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights, or Codex Chaos Space Marines and use them to put the same models on the table and play a game using the same tactics, regardless of the book I'm actually holding?

Actually, you probably could.

Not with Grey Knights at all, and you only could with CSM if you're doing solely Loyalist options. Your ignorance of those Codices is pretty staggering.

Ah yeah can't wait for Kel'Shan sept who is my Septs founding world.

Late to the show, but I guess I am not surprised by the announcement.

What I mean by that is I bought the Imperium II index for my Guard army, and was surprised that the platoon rules were not present. Part of me wondered if that was a change to how Guard will play, a deliberate omission (to sell a 'complete' codex later down the road) or something else. I guess option 2 was the real case.

So, while I am not surprised that another book I bought will soon be obsolete, it is making me less hopeful that there are meaningful changes to how GW will market their products in 8th edition. I sat out 7th edition because it came out too soon after 6th edition and the rules were a bloated nightmare to navigate. I was excited for 8th because it seemed like GW wasn't going down that same path and were attempting to make things more user friendly. Hopefully that stays the case, but if I need a Guard codex and my Index to play my Guard army, that isn't exactly streamlining things in my opinion.

I must be the wierd one out.

I've got multiple armies (custom SM, IG, Eldar, Ork, Tyranids, Necrons, Adeptus Mech, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Tau, CSM), so the indexes were a great buy for me.

I will only be using the indexes and the free rules download. Feth the codexes, they will only add power creep to the system. Brand new units I expect will come with their rules in the boxes. I literally see no reason to buy into the codex choo-choo train.

Does FFG require physical cards to play in FFG tournaments?

Of course, but I don't see how that's relevant?

 Stormonu wrote:
I must be the wierd one out.

I've got multiple armies (custom SM, IG, Eldar, Ork, Tyranids, Necrons, Adeptus Mech, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Tau, CSM), so the indexes were a great buy for me.

I will only be using the indexes and the free rules download. Feth the codexes, they will only add power creep to the system. Brand new units I expect will come with their rules in the boxes. I literally see no reason to buy into the codex choo-choo train.

Will you force others to play with indices or will you just put yourself at a disadvantage?

 d-usa wrote:
I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books

It's not. But it's similar enough that you can devise an army that fits in to pretty much every single power armor book with no or minimal changes to what models you bring.

You can't do that with guard/orks/tyranids. Unlike the other armies, the various space marines are still just minor variations on each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Design a list with a captain, tacticals, and terminators and you certainly could do it with both lists. Design one with assault marines, tacticals, and devastators, and you could with normal marines and csms. This is especially true of the current index armies.

I didn't expect they would communicate so soon about it. And release them so fast.

If only they released the Index warscrolls online and just give the possibility to buy the books for those who want, like they did for Age of Sigmar when it came out, people would complain less, because they would have a choice. Honestly, I understand why some are upset because of this.

But then...price for the indexes were quite low and we still have a long way before all the armies will get their own book. Oh well. Time to buy a new shelf for this edition, I guess.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who are not blind.

Fixed that for you.

I have several Marine armies - am I so entitled that I think Marines should have priority over all others - nope.

Do I - like you apparently - feel that I should not only have one overarching Codex but mutiple codexes - and first and screw everyone else. Nope.

honestly the only entitled people I see are the people complaining that their army isn't up for a codex first.

the first 4 codices (incidently in the name of full disclosure I have a Space Marine, chaos marine and Grek Knights army) are all fairly logical choices. with the new death guard and Primaris Marines space marines and chaos marines are gonna need their codices updatyed for the new stuff, death guard are in need of their own stand alone codex asap, if GW wants to launch them sucessfully. ans Grey Knights are a bit of an odd choice on the surface, but I'm hoping it's because they're getting some new stuff, something GKs honestly do need. (certainly more so then IG, orks or eldar whom are are fairly fleshed out)

this release also shouldn't suprise anyone, the rumor mill MONTHS ago was, from reliable rumor mongers, saying this year would focus on space marines and chaos. thing is, being the first book of a new edition isn't always good, just ask chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Late to the show, but I guess I am not surprised by the announcement.

What I mean by that is I bought the Imperium II index for my Guard army, and was surprised that the platoon rules were not present. Part of me wondered if that was a change to how Guard will play, a deliberate omission (to sell a 'complete' codex later down the road) or something else. I guess option 2 was the real case.

So, while I am not surprised that another book I bought will soon be obsolete, it is making me less hopeful that there are meaningful changes to how GW will market their products in 8th edition. I sat out 7th edition because it came out too soon after 6th edition and the rules were a bloated nightmare to navigate. I was excited for 8th because it seemed like GW wasn't going down that same path and were attempting to make things more user friendly. Hopefully that stays the case, but if I need a Guard codex and my Index to play my Guard army, that isn't exactly streamlining things in my opinion.

you'll likely not need the index, unless GW decides commissars and astropaths won't be in the AM book.

that said some armies I could see them not bothering with a codex for, Imperial knights for example.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books

It's not. But it's similar enough that you can devise an army that fits in to pretty much every single power armor book with no or minimal changes to what models you bring.

You can't do that with guard/orks/tyranids. Unlike the other armies, the various space marines are still just minor variations on each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Design a list with a captain, tacticals, and terminators and you certainly could do it with both lists. Design one with assault marines, tacticals, and devastators, and you could with normal marines and csms. This is especially true of the current index armies.

So if you take an army with not a single model/unit/weapon/rule that makes them Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Ultramarine/Space Wolves/Grey Knights....then could field an army as any one of those?

Honestly?

All I want to know is the likely price point.

If we go by AoS - we're still looking at hardcover books that are cheaper than their old 7th ed counterparts - £25-£30 instead of £30-£35.

Considering the Indexes were on par with the Grand Alliance books for pricing...

Not too bad.

My only annoyance is that I sold off armies to have a single one and need a single book and now I might need to buy 2 of these Codexes within the next 2 months. HAH. Serves me right for trying to save money.

I'm angry for two reasons. 1. The codex for marines (a army many people play) comes out like a month after the index. This is fine for other players but specifically for some people they now have to buy a new book in such a short amount of time.
2.now they have the codex (which has better and more balanced rules) doesn't this give them an advantage? Let's say your codex isn't coming out untill Christmas. That's about 5 or 6 months of people having an advantage over you with faction specific bonuses.

 d-usa wrote:
So if you take an army with not a single model/unit/weapon/rule that makes them Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Ultramarine/Space Wolves/Grey Knights....then could field an army as any one of those?

So you're saying Grey Knights don't use Terminators? Chaos Marines don't use Havocs? Space Wolves don't use Blood Claws / Sky Claws? Dark Angels don't use Tacticals? Blood Angels don't use Captains?

You're making an inane objection and you know it. The Space Marine sub-forces are quite similar. They have differences. But you can basically exchange one for the other with only minor differences. You can't exchange Orks and Imperial Guard and expect the same similarities like you claimed earlier.

What would they do for Deathwatch? Watch Fortresses? How about Dark Eldar? Covens of various types?

I am not too pissed about the early turnaround on the Space Marine codex. I still have Blood Angels, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights (probably not buying their Dex since this is only a small army for me) that will use the Index for the time being. The other Imperium Index has too many different armies for me to care if and when they get codexes (I have some Sisters, Inquisition, Ad Mech, Assassin's, and Knights).

There will still be plenty of new kits in the Space Marine codex that will make it worth it anyway. Hopefully the SM Codex won't suffer from Early Codex Syndrome and either be overpowered (Eldar Dex until it was replaced by Overpowered In A Different Way Eldar Dex) or underpowered (CSM among others). With ten codex releases in a few months makes me think there will be many teams working, which might mean no communication between them, leading to imbalance. Look at what happened with the Forgeworld stuff vs. the Indexes.

Looks like I was right on basically all counts with the SM Codex though. No separate Primaris Codex, check. No separate Ultramarines codex, check. Some older models that take up space that are best left in the Index (Legion of the Damned, LR TU, etc), check. Bring on the Crimson Fists Chapter Rules!

And this is why I did not buy any Index. Especially since we knew a lot of Adeptus Astartes kit were coming our way with the Primaris preview on Warhammer Community.

Dudeface wrote:

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

This is the big thing for me... There are so many identical options between the different marine armies that it really seems like it would be so much easier from every angle to just have a single book with Chapter Traits to differentiate the different coloured armour.

The only real space hog would be special characters - which could be released online as dataslates, allowing them to release as many or as few special characters as they want, when they want without being tied to book releases and space.

 insaniak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

This is the big thing for me... There are so many identical options between the different marine armies that it really seems like it would be so much easier from every angle to just have a single book with Chapter Traits to differentiate the different coloured armour.

The only real space hog would be special characters - which could be released online as dataslates, allowing them to release as many or as few special characters as they want, when they want without being tied to book releases and space.

Have you seen the way that they have done the different Skyports for the Kharadron Overlords?

Basically, the Skyport you pick and its associated color scheme lets you bring in certain Relics, grants you more access to certain units, and gives you a specific set of the various little Codes/By-Laws/whatever they're called. Some Skyports have other benefits/downsides like letting you take more than usual of a certain hero or Skyship in a formation or requires you to take a certain number of a specific type of hero or unit.

I can't really explain it well without having the book, but it's actually a very nice system.

I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

 insaniak wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

Never underestimate the ability of a gamer to find something to complain about. .

Or the ability of others to trivialise complaints they disagree with.

These discussions would go considerably more smoothly if people could accept that different opinions to their own aren't inherently meritless.

The same could be said of people accepting that just because they have an opinion doesn't mean it's legitimate, and that not all opinions are created equally. Maybe opinions are being trivialized because they are trivial opinions. I'm really having a hard time seeing a rapid and massive release of content from GW's part as a bad thing.

Oh boy have we go the full circle.

From "THIS IS THE WORST" to "NO, YOU ARE THE WORST"
To "I'm too poor for this!" to "Go play chekers you filthy poor guys!"

To "OMG SPHEES MARINS I'M ALLERGIC TO THEM!".


This thread has been very fun to read. Power Armour sells, guys. Is time for you to accept that.
GW is here to make dollars, money, dinero, cash, whatever you want to call it.
Warhammer40k IS Space Marines. They are the PROTAGONISTS of the setting. This is like talking about how Marvel don't stop pushing Captain America in Captain America Movies and Comics. And my main army is Tau, but oh my god. I have accepted after entering this setting that my army is just a secondary narrative for the setting. A small dot, made to be a parody of the typical Sci-Fi human republic. And I'm fine with that. I say this for your own good, really. Being angry and upset isn't good for you or anyone. It affect our health on the long term.

I actually hope they either don't do an Imperial Knights codex or combine them with something else. Same story for Renegade Knights. Two pages of rules does not need an entire codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

I can't really think of a reason why this wouldn't work. Make Codex Adherent and Codex Aberrant into just two books. It worked fairly well, IMO, for the Index. The second half of the book is where things go sideways between Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights.

Still no rules leaks????

 TheWaspinator wrote:
I actually hope they either don't do an Imperial Knights codex or combine them with something else. Same story for Renegade Knights. Two pages of rules does not need an entire codex.

They could roll them in with Imperial Agents or Ad Mech as far as I am concerned. Renegade Knights are one single data sheet. I think they could probably go in the CSM Codex, or maybe the Ad Mech Codex can have Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Knights in it.

 insaniak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

This is the big thing for me... There are so many identical options between the different marine armies that it really seems like it would be so much easier from every angle to just have a single book with Chapter Traits to differentiate the different coloured armour.

The only real space hog would be special characters - which could be released online as dataslates, allowing them to release as many or as few special characters as they want, when they want without being tied to book releases and space.

Personally, I would be okay if they copied the Index approach. Have Codex Space Marine, and then release smaller softcover books for non-Codex chapters that have all the chapter specific rules in them, and then lots of "refer to Codex Space Marine for all these other units.

People would call it a money grab designed to sell you two books though.

What is the lead time on a codex? I mean how many months before release are they printed?
Some say the Indexes were printed 6months before 8E release, if this is true then pretty much all the problems and errors that needed to be FAQd will also be in the codex.

One can only hope that the later books will be better quality checked but knowing GW quality is more of an afterthought when it comes to books.

General Hobbs wrote:


Still no rules leaks????

Do we even know when the SM codex goes up for preorder. Anymore the leaks don't start until the preorder is posted.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


Still no rules leaks????

Do we even know when the SM codex goes up for preorder. Anymore the leaks don't start until the preorder is posted.

They said "late July".

I'm thinking it'll be preorders on the 15th or 22nd.

 insaniak wrote:

This is the big thing for me... There are so many identical options between the different marine armies that it really seems like it would be so much easier from every angle to just have a single book with Chapter Traits to differentiate the different coloured armour.

The only real space hog would be special characters - which could be released online as dataslates, allowing them to release as many or as few special characters as they want, when they want without being tied to book releases and space.

There are some fairly stark differences...Dark Angels have never been able to field a Landspeeder Storm, for instance...and in the 6th edition release, they got a bunch of new toys only they could take...Nephylim flyer, Deathwing Knights, Land Speeder Vengeance, Darkshroud, etc.

But really, the main reason is because GW wants to get that $50-a-pop for each new chapter book. Also, lets be honest here....I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more people crying if they didn't get their own special snowflake codex....(like the 5 Black Templars players who have been whining on these forums for the last 10 years or so) than people complaining about having to buy a book that has many of the same dataslates as the vanilla book.


I'm more afraid of them breaking the armies up into sub-faction books like they are doing with AoS (see Oruks, Skaven, and Dwarfs)...I could easily see them releasing a Codex: Drukhari Beast-masters, a Codex: Haemonculus Covens and then a Codex: Wych Covens book at some later point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


Still no rules leaks????

Do we even know when the SM codex goes up for preorder. Anymore the leaks don't start until the preorder is posted.

They said "late July".

I'm thinking it'll be preorders on the 15th or 22nd.

So leaks probably starting weekend at the earliest.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

I can't really think of a reason why this wouldn't work. Make Codex Adherent and Codex Aberrant into just two books. It worked fairly well, IMO, for the Index. The second half of the book is where things go sideways between Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights.

This sounds like a good approach to me as well.

Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

 Galas wrote:
Warhammer40k IS Space Marines

Nah, that's 30k. I know you can't tell the difference, but to people who care about the lore and the tabletop game, there is a very big set of differences.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

This. I really liked that the index had a core with simple mods for the different lists, and think it makes so much more sense to use the HH/3rd edition model where you got mini-dex mods of the core armies (Marines, Orks, Guard, Eldar at very least got those, sometimes independent, sometimes collections, for those who aren't familiar). I was hoping they'd return to that model.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

If plague marines are getting their own book, it seems reasonable to suspect robot marines are getting their own book. Doing mini-dexes is probably the only way GW will clear 10 in a year. Which sadly leaves the lion's share of the main factions for next year.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books

It's not. But it's similar enough that you can devise an army that fits in to pretty much every single power armor book with no or minimal changes to what models you bring.

You can't do that with guard/orks/tyranids. Unlike the other armies, the various space marines are still just minor variations on each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Design a list with a captain, tacticals, and terminators and you certainly could do it with both lists. Design one with assault marines, tacticals, and devastators, and you could with normal marines and csms. This is especially true of the current index armies.

Well at least you won't try and defend your point on Grey Knights, but you're wrong on Chaos Marines.
1. You might be able to compare Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines, but the difference being how you load them out. If your Chaos Marines weren't equipped with double special weapons or extra CCW's, then yes sure you're correct.
2. If you weren't equipping your Chaos Terminators with any Heavy weapons outside the heavy flamer and gave all of them Power Costs sure.
3. Assault Marines don't even function like Raptors...

So basically the CSM and SM Codices are interchangeable if you only use specific HQ's, and only Devastators/Tactical Marines. This is what your argument really is when you pick it apart. You're wrong. Just admit it, please.

Dudeface wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

Except iron hands and raven guard are both in a single codex, and blood angels are one of the borderline cases.

The four codexes coming out are death guard (who have plague marines and poxwalkers), csm (cultists, CSM squads, cult troops), and grey knights (who are totally distinct from normal marines loadout and unit wise), plus plain marines, whose only real overlap is with CSM for normal tactical squads. Putting chaos marines and normal marines in codex together would either leave off all the demonic units, engines, and cult troops for chaos and all the exclusive tech imperial marines use. Grey knights literally have no overlap. The only legitimate complaint is possibly DG, who could be folded back into CSM given they like have only a handful of unique units, unless the release schedule is particularly robust.

I mean, it's not like CSM had to make do with one of the oldest codices all of 7th edition, only getting a decent update in the last 6 months of the edition invalidated shortly thereafter. So don't complain about CSM finally getting some attention. We finally get a little attention and suddenly everyone starts whining.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Warhammer40k IS Space Marines

Nah, that's 30k. I know you can't tell the difference, but to people who care about the lore and the tabletop game, there is a very big set of differences.

Nice ad hominem! The funny thing is that I agree in all of your opinions about 30k! But don't let a honest discussiong get in the way of attacking random people on the internet!
The difference is that 40k is a Batman Movie with the Joker,Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, The Penguin, Sandman, etc... but the protagonist is still Batman.

And 30k is a one of those Batman comics where he meet all the other alternative Batmans and Robins.


And, about codex and all of that... I'm the only one upset about Loyalist having access to Tartarus and Cathapracti terminators but Chaos Marines Ones, that should have the most of those armours, can't? Is a little nitpicking of mine.