It’s the third day of Nurgle – a very special day indeed, given the significance of the number 3 to the God of Plagues! Today, we’re checking out a couple of the new Heralds available to Nurgle armies:
Previously, Nurgle only had one kind of Herald available, known appropriately as a Herald. However, these guys only represented some of the myriad servants available to the God of Plagues, and with the new Codex: Chaos Daemons and Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle, Heralds are getting more diverse than ever.
Our favourite has to be the Sloppity Bilepiper, a miniature that sums up the repugnant jollity of Nurgle perfectly. Armed with a set of jolly gutpipes and a marotter (crafted from the remains of the previous Sloppity Bilepiper), these Heralds are the victims and carriers of the Chortling Murrain, a disease that causes its victims to laugh themselves to death. Sloppity Bilepipers cavort and joke with Nurglings, Great Unclean Ones and Beasts of Nurgle (but not Plaguebearers, who lack a sense of humour) and strike horror into the hearts of their mortal foes.
Meanwhile, the Spoilpox Scrivener is a downright dour creature by comparison… It’s the job of the Spoilpox Scriveners to ensure that Plaguebearers meet their tallies, a job they accomplish by relentlessly browbeating and bullying their counterparts with a barrage of insults and commands. On the tabletop, the Spoilpox Scrivener will ensure that your Plaguebearers fight harder, making them a handy strategic lynchpin for the rest of your army.
Make sure to come back tomorrow, when we’ll be taking a look at some of Nurgle’s more mortal (but no less deadly!) servants.
The new GUO plastic kit
Spoiler:
Kanluwen wrote: "Rotigus", the new character Great Unclean One.
The two other builds.
They're getting rules in the Chaos Daemons codex to "update" it.
Source: Warhammer-Community.com
The Second Day of Nurgle: Great Unclean One
Did you spot our special reveal yesterday? If you didn’t get a chance to watch Warhammer Community’s very special Christmas carol, you may have missed some exciting news.
Next year, the forces of Nurgle will rise in the Mortal Realms, and the 41st Millennium, with a virulent host of new models, a new codex for the Chaos Daemons and 2018’s first battletome for Warhammer Age of Sigmar – Maggotkin of Nurgle.
We’ll be looking at some of the awesome new miniatures over the next 7 days, as well as giving away some free wallpapers (we are good to you!). Naturally, we’re starting with Nurgle’s mightiest Daemons – the Great Unclean Ones:
Very soon, the Great Unclean One will be reborn, combining the classic aesthetic you love with the very latest miniatures design technology. This gargantuan beast now lives up to its size in the lore of Warhammer, a living mountain of rotting flesh that’ll tower above the rest of your collection.
Of course, if the Great Unclean one looks familiar, there’s good reason for it – while the design might be modern, it hearkens back to some classic art from Warhammer’s history – most notably, Wayne England’s iconic depiction of Nurgle’s favourite servants:
Of course, good things come in threes, and you’ll be able to use this kit to build one of three variant Great Unclean Ones, each carrying a different set of equipment. The third is a new special character known as Rotigus:
Rotigus is worshipped in the far corners of the Mortal Realms and the 41st Millennium as a generous, life-giving deity of prosperity and fecundity. While Rotigus certainly is generous (as all servants of Nurgle are!), the gifts he gives are foul in nature, and any who pray for his patronage soon see the error of their ways…
You’ll find datasheets and warscrolls for these guys in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle, updated to properly reflect the expanded weapon options (not to mention bulk!) now available in the kit.
That’s not all – here’s a free wallpaper for you to download and celebrate your love of Nurgle:
There are more gifts on the way, so tune in tomorrow for another look at a new Nurgle kit…
Seems our little friend is from a Blightking on a Rot Fly
So, confirmed thus far, we have
- the Blight Tree
- two Plaguebearer-type characters (one of them likely a Herald?)
- a mounted Blightking unit
- the new Great Unclean One (crikey, he looked good)
- and of course the Beasts of Nurgle
maxdy746 wrote: talked to my local GW guys today and they gave me the pamphlet, looking closely im pretty sure the 3 guys behind the lord are blightlord terminators not plague marines, because they seem to have combi bolters. Also they said they couldnt tell me when they'd be out exactly but they did say definitely before christmas!
Hauler
Warhams-77 wrote: A life sign of the Hauler, it will get a model release
Via Faeit, from WarhammerTV's FB page
Maxime Pastourel's blog - Death Guard Making of
Spoiler:
Mario wrote: This blog post from one of the sculptors of the new Nurgle kits might be of interest for some people. I only skimmed this thread for images, maybe it was already posted?
Bloated with festering corruption, Plague Marines form the mainstay of the Death Guard, and unlike many Traitor Legions their numbers have only swollen as the millennia have passed. Sworn to Nurgle’s service, Plague Marines have disgusting, rotted bodies that stink of decay. The putrescent slime that oozes from their sores corrodes armour boils away skin, yet despite their horrific disfigurements they are fearsome warriors indeed.
This multi-part plastic kit contains the components necessary to assemble a 7-man squad of Plague Marines. Each is posed dynamically, with the usual Death Guard accoutrements – cracked, rotting armour revealing grasping tentacles, severed heads displayed proudly on belts, backpacks sloshing with unnatural diseases and pipework leading from rebreathers to Nurgle knows what foul concoctions. There’s an Icon of Despair included, so your unit can feature an icon bearer.
These models feature a wide range of weapons and heads, many of which are designed to fit a specific model – there are 8 boltguns, 4 plague knives, 3 bubotic axes, a blight launcher, a plasma gun, a meltagun, a plaguebelcher, a heavy plaguespewer (with backpack), a mace of contagion, a great plague cleaver, a plague flail, a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol. There are 2 weapon options available for the unit Champion: a specific plaguesword and power fist, and there are a total of 16 bare and helmeted heads. 2 specific arms are included for a model holding a blight grenade, with one hand pulling the pin.
This kit comes as 146 components, and is supplied with 7 Citadel 32mm Round bases.
Zoomed sprue photos
October White Dwarf - Death Guard Designers' Notes article
Plague marine champion: £15
Plague marine icon bearer: £15
Plagueburst Crawler: £40
Bloat drone: £30
All the recent named models that appeared on the WC post are also priced at £15
Don’t worry, enemies of the Imperium, we haven’t forgotten about you – next week will also see four new models for the Death Guard! As well as Scribbus Wretch the Tallyman and Nauseus Rotbone the Plague Surgeon, you’ll be able to get your hands on the devastating Plaguecburst Crawler tank and the multi-part Foetid Bloat-drone kit.
As well as the plaguesprayers equipped by the Bloat-drone in Dark Imperium, the full kit contains some new weapons options – our favourite is the grisly flesh mower, which looks… well, exactly as you’d expect
The Death Guard are still a coherent and organised Legion as opposed to most other - in fact, they are now even more than they were at the outbreak of the Heresy, thanks to their resilience and harvesting of loyalist geneseed.
The Legion is divided into seven Plague Companies, who numbers thousands of warriors - utterly dwarfing loyalist Chapters. Each Plague Company has seven Sepsis Cohorts with roughly 700 Plague Marines each, and these Sepsis Cohorts are divided further into two Maledictums with seven companies each.
1st Plague Company are called the Harbingers and are led by Typhus himself. They love their Plague Zombies.
4th Plague Company is ruled by the Eater of Lives, aka Grulgor - cool, although it's weird he isn't leading the 2nd anymore.
6th Plague Company are called "The Ferrymen" or "The Brethren of the Fly", and they garrisons the Plague Fleets.
The 7th are Mortarion's Chosen Sons.
The Death Guard still uses super heavy tanks, drop- and gunships, drop pods aswell as Destroyer Colonies (Marines using alchemical weapons), although they have no rules for them - very cool, and far better than the old "GW Codex ignores fluff without models or FW stuff in their background section".
Timeline
- Starts with the Siege of Terra, although not much info is given about that. Death Guard are the only legion that manages to retreat in good order - for this they are gifted the Plague Planet, aka Barbarus 2.0
- Legion Wars are mentioned, taking some time and thousands of years shall pass where the Dg are rarely seen outside of the Eye of Terror.
- Morty and the 7th use Nurgle Orks (called the Green Death) to attack an Ecclesiarchy world. Yep, Nurgle Orks are a thing again!!
- Black Crusades are mentioned as plan to trigger the Great Rift. Morty sends his warbands to support Abaddon, Typhus fights alongside the Warmaster more than once.
- Battle of Kornovin aka Draigo vs Mortarion - only a pyrrhic victory for the Grey Knights, Morty uses the time to gather fresh forces and plots his next invasion.
- Siege of Vraks is in the timeline!
- Typhus infests Hive Pandorial on Necromunda with the Zombie Plague ...
- Plague in Commoragh
- Great Rift opens - Plague Fleets strike all across the Imperium.
- Plague Wars in Ultramar
- Waaaagh! Badsmak attacks the Scourge Stars - Morty defends them.
- Typhus duels and humbles Huron Blackheart, leaves him alive as a lesson in Nurgle's might and generosity.
- Saim-Hann gets attacked by the 5th and 6th Plague Company. Part of the Craftworld gets infected and cut off by ghost warriors. Nurgle Daemons posses the surviving clan members of that part and turn them into insectile half-breeds. Nurgle-tainted Aeldari Corsairs are a thing now!
- Morty banishes Ka'Bandha using seven corrupted skulls turned into grenades.
- The Eisenstein is sighted beyond the third moon of Lorn's Landing (what!?) and later Morty and his Legion invade the planet. Looks like this was the sixth time the frigatte was seen ...
- Typhus attacks Medusa and turns regions of the planet into cursed quarantine zones.
- 7th Plague Company attacks the fortress monastery of the Minotaurs and taints the gene-seed stocks beyond redemption. They are now on a desperate quest for survival, a crusade across the stars to reach Terra and access purified gene-seed reserves before the Chapter wastes away ...
- Morty and his Deathshroud survive alone against a whole legion of Necrons.
- Oh, and infected Necrons are a thing too ...
- Death Guard plagues are so toxic, not even a Tyranid would want to drink it ...
- Big battle between Iron Warriors and Death Guard, including Perturabo vs Mortarion. Morty wins, Perturabo is grumpy.
Regards,
Lady Atia
Warhammer-Community article - 3rd week of preorders
Blightlords and Typhus the next Week for preorder!
With a good glance to the Fly Terminator and the Smiling one.
Theres a curious thing. The "Smiling" terminator isn't smiling in the Codex
What could have happened to remove the smile from a Nurgle follower?
Background info from the Codex
Spoiler:
Marshal Loss on B&C
Marshal Loss, on 16 Sept 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:
ShadowSwordmaster, on 16 Sept 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:
Marshal Loss, on 16 Sept 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:
Got my hands on the limited edition - far too expensive, but I'm really pleased with it. Feels far better designed than the others I've purchased, really meaty. Nice little touch having the symbol on the cardboard box it comes in.
Read most of the fluff already and I have to say, I'm really impressed. They've done a great job. Some really, really cool bits that I'd love to see expanded upon. This release is impressive beyond my wildest expectations, and as a DG fan I sincerely hope other Traitor Legions (and sub-factions of other races too, not just marines) get this kind of detail. Hopefully it shows GW that if they invest time and money in renewing (or creating) a range, it is going to convince even cynics like me to part with their cash.
I think all of the info is out there now, but in case there are any questions ask away
What is going on with Typhus and the other Death Guard captains?
Typhus is still formally the First Captain of the Death Guard. He and Mortarion have basically reached an arrangement where Typhus does his own thing (they still hate each other) but joins the Death Guard for major campaigns. Mortarion, in a rare moment of patience, allowed him to ragequit the plague planet, because he did not want to repeat the mistakes of his own father. In the timeline, he essentially does his own thing all the time, often at the head of a coalition of other traitor forces (allied warbands of the Purge and the Cleaved for example).
At one point, he duels and humbles (their words) Huron Blackheart, only leaving him alive to show him that Nurgle is both 1) the best and 2) a generally swell guy.
There are other high-ranking captains named and some pop up throughout the book, but none are really expanded upon much other than little nuggets in the timeline. One company is actually ruled over by a gestalt daemon named the 'Eater of Lives' (Grulgor from the HH), which is a really nice touch. Various Vectoriums get some attention showing their specialties, and even Mortarion's defeat at the hands of Draigo is written in a more appropriate fashion (no mention of the heart).
In terms of their organisation, they avoid saying that the Death Guard are flat out the 'only organised Traitor Legion,' so there is definitely room for them to bring back others (WB, IW etc) with significant cohesion also. In the current timeline, Mortarion has only recently duelled and defeated Perturabo and his Iron Warriors Legion.
The duel is (like all Primarch duels basically) a standstill and goes for seven hours, but the Death Guard's resilience and plagues grind down the Iron Warriors, destroying masses of vehicles to the point that Perturabo is forced to call a retreat under the cover of a bunch of detonating trenches. Both sides take massive casualties, it's fought over some the heathen 'Temple of Ascension'. It's very recent in the timeline too, sounds cool, would like a DG vs Iron Warriors novel (nudge nudge Black Library) based around this.
So yeah it's not like Morty smacks down Perturabo, but despite his losses it's a pretty emphatic victory for the DG in a really large-scale conflict against a powerful foe, so I'd chalk it up as a meaningful victory. We know from experience that Perturabo is not exactly fond of calling retreats when he really wants something.
Another cool nugget: Mortarion and his Deathshroud hold the breach in a wall against an entire Legion of Necrons (anybody know how many this is? it sounds impressive), and by the time his Legion frantically rush to save him, Mortarion and his boys are standing surrounded by an entire dead Legion of Necrons. Heh.
mmzero252 wrote: Miniwargaming has there stuff up already if anyone is interested in watching them. The Mortarion video is..actually really bad quality, but eh..they go over everything.
Horus Luperkermit wrote: I took some notes in the Miniwargaming Vid about Mortarion. I will only go into new stuff and not the statline and abilities we've already seen.
The Lantern is 18" Pistol 1 with S8 AP-3 and 3 Damage. It also draws an 18" ''line'' between Morty and the unit he's shooting at, additionally hitting all other units that stand in this line.
Phosphex Bombs are 6" Grenade 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1
Lastly the Lantern has 2 attack modes. The first is called ''Eviscerating Blow" and is Strenght 2x AP-4 and D6 Damage. The second mode is called "Reaping Scythe" and is Strenght User AP-2 and 1 damage but each attack counts as 3. Both modes also count as plague weapons. Lastly he is the Primarch of the DG rerolling Hitroles of 1 for all DG units including himself in 7" and if he dies he explodes on a 4+ dealing D3 Mortal wounds in 7" around him to all Non-Deathguard Units. The rest is as we know it. Please correct me if I heard something wrong
Motarion has really good things going for him.
He seems to destroy hordes, killing about 30 horde units a turn not counting morale.
Also he can kill big stuff even easier than magnus.
AND he pulses mortal wounds every turn.
AND he removes toughness.
Bastard has 5 weapons to choose from:
Pistol with "beam"(can hit mutiple units) 1, S8, -3, 3
Grenade 2D6, S5, -1, 1
Nurglings like always D6, S2, 0, 1,
Silence has 2 modes:
anti big stuff: S user x2, -4, D6 anti horde 3x for every attack, S user, -2, 1
Re-roll 1s to hit for deathguard(like magnus but no fail save re-roll)
Psychic: knows 3 contagion, deny 3, casts 2. Can't take warp time :(
Mathammer wise he is a bit worse than Magnus on paper due to not casting warptime. His damage is better though and he can take on hordes as well as big dudes so he is waaaay more versatile.. Also the -1T aura and the pulsating 3 mortal wounds are hard to judge.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Plague Surgeon has an aura that gives infantry units within 3 inches a reroll on a 1 for their DR save. And they are elite choice and quite cheap too.
And for those who were worried Mortarion might be singled out and gunned down by heavy weapons. Deathshroud Terminators have 4++ save, DR, 2 wounds, and they can take wounds for any character near to them. So, yeah, all those lascannon shots directed at Mortarion can be rediracted at the Deathshroud terminators first!
Blightlord Terminators are T5, DR, 2W terminators that kind take the regular combi weapons stuff as well as the plague marine weapons like blight launchers and such and they are only a few points more expensive than regular CSM termninators.
The bloat drone with fleshmower sounds so fun to use! It adds 6 attacks to the Bloat drones attacks ... 6 !!! And its str user+2, so that's str 8 attacks on an uninjured bloat drone. This fleshmower will literally mow down stuff. lol Bloat drone has 3 attacks base, so at full health, it will do 9 Str 8 attacks. lol
The blight Hauler is a really interesting unit too. fast attack choice, moves 10 inches. 8 wounds, does not degrade, has 5++ as well as DR, packs 3 ranged weapons and 1 melee. And it gives a special aura that is 7 inches radius. Infantry units wholly within its aura get cover save! So, your 5 man plague marine unit close to the Blight Hauler is now a 2+ armor save as it trudges up the board. Nice! Its really cheap too. Under 100 points base. @@
The Plague burst crawler is really cheap too (its only slightly over 100 points base!) and quite hitty! Firstly, its really resilient, becuase it has T8, 3+ save and DR and 12 wounds. And it has a fair amount of heavy weaponery. You can swop the side sponstones into basically the equivalent of 36 inch range lascannons. And the Plague burst mortar is the heavy duty weapon. It does d6 hits, Str 8, AP -2. d3 damage at range 12 to 48 inches and you don't need line of sight to fire it! lol. With this, a gun line deathguard army is a distinct possibility.
Galas wrote: This stratagem alone makes Poxwalkers much more juicy!
Chikout wrote: Here is a size comparison for Mortarion (I matched the bases.) There were also some better pics of the new minis in the sample. At first glance I am very impressed by the terminators.
Also, confirmed on the twitter of Max (the eavy metal painter who did Mortarion), Morty does come with two heads - one aiming with his pistol, and one not. Torvak Kyre first noticed it on the Mortarion topic so credit to him for picking up on it first. A little disappointing they didn't do something more different - no rebreather, or a grim reaper style one - but still a nice touch.
Quote
The other head is in the wd too there's an "aiming one" for the pose where he's got lantern in his right hand
More hints from the GW webteam
Spoiler:
Virules wrote: From the 40kFB Page:
-"Mortarion himself is perhaps one of the best horde-killers in the game with Silence"
-"There's 15(!) new units in the Codex"
-"Mortarion has Arch Contaminator (which makes him pretty great as a lynchpin in a larger army, as he should be!) and Typhus has Living Plague"
-"Disgustingly Resilient isn't strictly speaking a Legion Trait but it is common to several units like Plague Marines"
The Death Guard are almost here, and with them, yet another new codex for Warhammer 40,000.
We know you’ve been asking to see more of the Death Guard ever since we teased them back in March, and today, your patience is rewarded:
This is one of the most exciting armies of the new edition, and you can expect to see loads of new and revamped units (you may be able to pick out a few of them from the picture, if you’re not too distracted by just how awesome Mortarion looks leading his Legion).
Codex: Death Guard will be out in September, with Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus not far behind. We’ll be previewing both books, in detail, in advance of their release, so make sure to keep coming back to Warhammer Community to make sure you don’t miss any of it.
New Typhus? Also 40k-era Deathshroud/Grave Warden Terminators?
Spoiler:
All pics via B&C forum
Colour-edited Mortarion photo
Spoiler:
MajorTom11 wrote: Here's a re-paint on it, no purple, grungier, maybe some will change their minds a bit, I think the model is solid -
News from Konor video - Mortarion, Terminators, Tallyman, Typhus?
Spoiler:
Leaked Mortarion photo
Spoiler:
SilverAlien wrote: By way of helterskelter over on B&C: first clear short of Morty
Good model, paint job leaves a bit to be desired but if you can ignore that solid model imo.
Codex: Space Marines will be swiftly followed by the Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines with Death Guard not far behind. (Yeah, you read that right – the sons of Mortarion are getting their own codex.)
clearer image of plaguecrawler, thanks to someone on heresyonline. Would have to be a pretty darn good conversion if it isn't legit. The pale parts of the armor don't look as worn/corroded as I would like..that is fixable though.
timd wrote: Speaking of new things Nurgle, there are a few apparently new unit types listed in the Forces of Chaos lists for the different warzones in the hardback rulebook. Pages 159 and 161.
Ultramar
Sporewalker... Colossal Beast
Cult of Renewal... Seercult
Winged Rotflies... Mutated Fly Swarm
Befoulers... 7 Claw Corps
Seven Blights... 3 Blight Towers
Keepers of the Cauldron... Seercult
Infumers... 3 Chem Legions
Slimehorn Legions... 7 Pestigor Legions
You're welcome, DG should be an August/September release but with GW teasing so far in advance nowadays we should get more infos (and rumors/leaks) soon
Yes, I think that this head is awful, too. But as long as there will be other helmets in the terminator kit I dont mind. Same with the plague marine models for which I prefer MK3 helmets. To each their own though, I can see people liking the mad grin heads and do appreciate there will be some different styles for the models
Codex SM will be released at the end of July followed by Codex GK and CSM according to GW. So it looks like end of August the earliest, maybe September for the book if the models come before it. I dont mind, they have been quite open with Primaris models info and I dont think this will be different with DG
Warhams-77 wrote: Codex SM will be released at the end of July followed by Codex GK and CSM according to GW. So it looks like end of August the earliest, maybe September for the book if the models come before it. I dont mind, they have been quite open with Primaris models info and I dont think this will be different with DG
The problem is that all they've done is tease Death Guard for months. It has long gotten boring, compared to Primaris who they just showed outright.
Loving this thread so far, but some speculation abut the unit types from the table thing.
The Seercult sounds interesting, especially since several types of nurgle sorcerers were noted in the DG pamphlet in DI. Maybe we'll see something like the Crypteks of 5th and 6th?
Pestigors do seem possible, but I dont think we'll see a huge beast or fly swarms.
Claw corps just seems like nurgle aligned raptors, I wouldn't put money on anything, but the Chem Legions... those could be an alternative build to the plague terminator kit.
We do already have a huge creature option via forgeworld, though it looks like we might get something similar going off the foot picture.
I kinda hope pestigors aren't a thing. We have poxwalkers and presumably will keep normal cultists as well. I don't really need a third non space marine troop choice with models. But that's just me.
I'm curious what options plague marines might end up with. A few shots indicate melee focused plague marines might be a potential option (the flail guys). Those could be chosen equivalents as well.
I really wish we could see more terminators. Or a better shot of morty. The vehicle is nice but not really what gets me excited for DG.
Interesting, i'll have to see how that pans out...I still haven't based my nurglings so if they move to 50mm there will be some more room on the bases to add the extra solo nurglings. I'm still puzzled by the poxwalker bases though, cause the easy to build kit is said to contain 6 32mm bases. And i've already done all my poxwalkers on 25mm...so I hope they don't pull some kind of switcheroo on us.
Swara wrote:I really do hope they have some kind of monster..
I know there has been rumors floating around about 40k getting the Maggoths released over.
I hope so, whether its maggoths or a great unclean one. A GUO would be cool though cause its kind of overdue for AoS and 40k...and the forgeworld one is so cool I think a well done plastic version would be worthwhile. So long as it looks like a giant nurgling i'll be happy. But if it's something different/new then thats fine too.
Swara wrote: I really do hope they have some kind of monster..
I know there has been rumors floating around about 40k getting the Maggoths released over.
Maggoths are mentioned in the Dark Imperium novel.
I'm very interested in the pestigors and non astartes cultists!
Chances are I won't pick up any of the the regular DG stuff (They aren't mubflavornof heresy, and I wouldn't bring the passion thatthose of you who have been chosen by nurgle so often possess) but those kits seem the mostly likely to have some fun kot bashy type options in them.
Im also just curious to see what from all of those transfers over to fantasy
Could those possibly be God-specific cultists in that listing? I'd be down for that, especially if they get some features or abilities to separate them from the Undivided cultists.
Barzam wrote: Could those possibly be God-specific cultists in that listing? I'd be down for that, especially if they get some features or abilities to separate them from the Undivided cultists.
That's one of the options for the various chem- groups mentioned
timd wrote: Speaking of new things Nurgle, there are a few apparently new unit types listed in the Forces of Chaos lists for the different warzones in the hardback rulebook. Pages 159 and 161.
Ultramar
Sporewalker... Colossal Beast
Cult of Renewal... Seercult
Winged Rotflies... Mutated Fly Swarm
Befoulers... 7 Claw Corps
Seven Blights... 3 Blight Towers
Keepers of the Cauldron... Seercult
Infumers... 3 Chem Legions
Slimehorn Legions... 7 Pestigor Legions
Cadia
The Horned... Pestigor Legion
T
Interesting that in those lists it also refers to the Beasts of Nurgle units as Warherds. Would be interesting if the ret conned Beasts of Nurgle into Nurgle Minotaur type creatures, which would be cool alongside Pestigors.
Barzam wrote: Could those possibly be God-specific cultists in that listing? I'd be down for that, especially if they get some features or abilities to separate them from the Undivided cultists.
Interesting that in those lists it also refers to the Beasts of Nurgle units as Warherds. Would be interesting if the ret conned Beasts of Nurgle into Nurgle Minotaur type creatures, which would be cool alongside Pestigors.
Like the big beasties shown in the battle artwork on the third page of the new rulebook?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as Plague Marines get their Bolt Pistols back and 2 attacks, I'll consider this new codex a win.
I don't think they will, they aren't modeled with bolt pistols on them and GW tends to like having what you see is what you get with their models. And the new upcoming kit is already a done deal. But we know there are other options in the build because of the dude with the flail. So while they might not get their bolt pistols, maybe they will get some other powerful close range stuff. Or i'm wrong and the flail guy is not part of a different plague marine datasheet...which is very possible. Honestly I think they should somehow be tougher/harder to kill..and not get more attacks. The concept of plague marines strikes me as a slightly slower moving tank of a marine that can absorb tremendous punishment...moreso than they can now. But also are a bit more clumsy and do less damage...thus keeping their damage output where it is now. Even if they don't get their bolt pistols back they need some kind of slight buff...or another unit that can work in conjunction with them that makes them more viable as a choice.
Thanks for putting all information together. I am looking forward to Mortarion which looks more interesting to me than Magnus.
I also see much conversion potential for my 30k stuff ... I will try to put together a small band of DG MKIII Marines which only show early signs of corruption. Hopefully the Plague Marine plastic set will add some more useful material ...
casdark wrote: Can still play a daemon in a chaos space marine army? Or vice versa?
Yes. In fact demons have a rule called demonic ritual where if a chaos character doesn't move, he can summon demons onto the field.
We have to buy a lot codex!
Isn't that the same as before? Daemons and CSM were separate ever since 5th ed.
I started in 8th edition. I don't know how worked before
Oh right. Well, 3rd ed demons and CSM both shared the same book. Then GW decided that was no good, so in 5th ed they made them separate armies. Then in 6th ed they decided they can let them ally in demons. Then in 7th ed they decided that everyone can now summon demons. Everyone. Now in 8th ed its only chaos characters (both CSM and Demon) who can summon demons, but they are still technically separate armies. Demons might be in the CSM book, but I doubt it. You would only need like 2 codices anyway. Unless you want to like, play all of the chaos.
casdark wrote: Can still play a daemon in a chaos space marine army? Or vice versa?
Yes. In fact demons have a rule called demonic ritual where if a chaos character doesn't move, he can summon demons onto the field.
We have to buy a lot codex!
Isn't that the same as before? Daemons and CSM were separate ever since 5th ed.
I started in 8th edition. I don't know how worked before
Oh right.
Well, 3rd ed demons and CSM both shared the same book.
Then GW decided that was no good, so in 5th ed they made them separate armies.
Then in 6th ed they decided they can let them ally in demons.
Then in 7th ed they decided that everyone can now summon demons. Everyone.
Now in 8th ed its only chaos characters (both CSM and Demon) who can summon demons, but they are still technically separate armies. Demons might be in the CSM book, but I doubt it.
You would only need like 2 codices anyway. Unless you want to like, play all of the chaos.
I want play chaos daemon. I suppose that some model, like magnus, will be on chaos codex.
If you just want to play chaos demon, then you only need the demon book when it comes out. I'd be very surprised if they decided to break up the 4 gods into different books. I know they will do that to the CSM, because you already have the Death Guard separate from the Chaos Codex.
Wait.. so.. if I want to play Alpha Legion.. is that still even a thing? Armies like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers.. I'm gonna guess there's a main book? But if you want a squad of Berzerkers and a squad of Deathguard and maybe some Furies or a greater demon then that's what.. 4 codices you need? Sounds like a bit of a fleecing if you ask me.. and something I'll not be in a hurry to jump into... despite already putting together my Alpha Legion list :/
MLaw wrote: Wait.. so.. if I want to play Alpha Legion.. is that still even a thing? Armies like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers.. I'm gonna guess there's a main book? But if you want a squad of Berzerkers and a squad of Deathguard and maybe some Furies or a greater demon then that's what.. 4 codices you need? Sounds like a bit of a fleecing if you ask me.. and something I'll not be in a hurry to jump into... despite already putting together my Alpha Legion list :/
More likely you're looking at something like this:
-Daemons of Chaos will have rules for fielding all of the Daemons you might want. Furies, Great Unclean Ones, everybody.
-Death Guard will have rules for fielding all of the Nurgle stuff you might want. Plague Marines, Nurgle Daemons, everybody.
-Thousand Sons will have Tzeentch rules.
-Whatever Khorne book we get will have his stuff.
-Slaanesh will have its stuff.
-Main CSM book will have a smattering of the "basic" stuff from the four Gods(Plague Marines, Thousand Sons Legionnaires, Berzerkers, etc) and be focused more upon the unaligned stuff and include a smattering of the "basic" Daemons.
This is pure speculation based upon the way we've seen stuff done for Age of Sigmar mind you, but it feels right as it does not mandate someone get all the books if they want to do a hodgepodge force without going too heavily specialized into one branch or another.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. so.. if I want to play Alpha Legion.. is that still even a thing? Armies like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers.. I'm gonna guess there's a main book? But if you want a squad of Berzerkers and a squad of Deathguard and maybe some Furies or a greater demon then that's what.. 4 codices you need? Sounds like a bit of a fleecing if you ask me.. and something I'll not be in a hurry to jump into... despite already putting together my Alpha Legion list :/
That's a good question.
Here's how I'm thinking it will be broken down -
The God Specific armies would all get their own books, and the dataslates would reflect this. Ie, Berserkers as troops in a World Eaters army.
The main CSM codex will be for everyone else / generic chaos marine armies. All of the cult troops would still be in there, but as elites as usual.
Maybe there will be a minor section for Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, kind of like how it is in the codex.
That's how I'm thinking it will be organized. Probably super wrong, but I guess we'll see when the codex comes out soon.
I'm expecting [Legion] rules in the CSM codex for Black legion, iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word bearers and Red corsairs. Possibly also for Crimson Slaughter (I thought they'd destroy them after Traitors Hate, but they still appeared in the rulebook.).
In the rulebook they also mentioned The Purge as one of the larger renegade factions, but I guess these would be represented by a CSM force using mainly the mark of Nurgle and not necessarily getting their own rules.
As there were already placeholders for the monogod-legions I don't expect these to appear in the Codex (again). We'll get rules for marks probably, which, together with the index, will make it possible to already build a World Eaters Force - until they get their own codex as well.
Of course that is all speculation as well - based on what's presented the index and rulebook though.
Codex wise its shaping up to look like
Codex death guard
Codex thousand sons
Codex world eaters
Codex emperors children
Codex chaos space marines (generic chaos and non god legions)
Codex chaos daemons
Motograter wrote: Codex wise its shaping up to look like
Codex death guard
Codex thousand sons
Codex world eaters
Codex emperors children
Codex chaos space marines (generic chaos and non god legions)
Codex chaos daemons
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this off of? Did I miss a schedule leak?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as Plague Marines get their Bolt Pistols back and 2 attacks, I'll consider this new codex a win.
I want to mention that, while it seems we probably won't get our bolt pistols back, what might happen is DG get some variant on true grit back, which allowed boltguns to act as bolt pistols for the purpose of close combat. This is apparently what they had in older books, rather than being equipped with bolt pistols. In this edition, it'd probably mean being able to fire them in close combat, possibly even at other units locked in close combat with other allies, which would be very interesting,
That's just guessing based off how many things seem to resemble old 4th edition DG rules so far. Personally I'm hoping for something to make plague marines more than just an overpriced special weapon delivery system.
MLaw wrote: Wait.. so.. if I want to play Alpha Legion.. is that still even a thing? Armies like Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers.. I'm gonna guess there's a main book? But if you want a squad of Berzerkers and a squad of Deathguard and maybe some Furies or a greater demon then that's what.. 4 codices you need? Sounds like a bit of a fleecing if you ask me.. and something I'll not be in a hurry to jump into... despite already putting together my Alpha Legion list :/
Codex:CSM should include rules for running every non cult legion, and any unit they can take. Which will include cult units, at least the classic ones, as they can be taken as members of any legion currently (even if that's mainly fluffy for black legion, maybe word bearers). The death guard specific codex will presumably include things for running an entirely DG force, including units that onl DG can take (poxwalkers for example) as well as units they share with CSM. The same will presumably occur with the other cult legions eventually.
So you shouldn't need multiple codices to run a CSM or DG army. However, I'm sure many of us who play DG will end up owning both in the end, as many existing units we already own wouldn't work in a pure DG force and would need to be part of an allied CSM detachment. But if you aren't interested in owning a DG army, you should be fine.
I really hope we get true grit back, it was great before.
Would make them a bit more viable if they could use their bolters as just Pistol 1 weapons in CC
True grit might be ok, but it wont be treating bolters as pistols in close combat. Allowing you to fire your bolters while locked in CC? Ouch. that sounds really dangerous and a little "OP"
I think it was mentioned that Units from the new starter sets wouldnt have full rules. and the Index/codex rules would "trump" the starter set rules. However saying that it is possible that the "old" units (Units mentioned in the "death guard" section of the index) would get updated rules in the Codex. as from the plague marine leaked piccys there is a weapon option *NOT* in the chaos index
I will grab a link if i can remember it. but don't quote me on this till i can find ze proof :3
Sharazad87 wrote: True grit might be ok, but it wont be treating bolters as pistols in close combat. Allowing you to fire your bolters while locked in CC? Ouch. that sounds really dangerous and a little "OP"
I think it was mentioned that Units from the new starter sets wouldnt have full rules. and the Index/codex rules would "trump" the starter set rules. However saying that it is possible that the "old" units (Units mentioned in the "death guard" section of the index) would get updated rules in the Codex. as from the plague marine leaked piccys there is a weapon option *NOT* in the chaos index
I will grab a link if i can remember it. but don't quote me on this till i can find ze proof :3
Well... it might actually balance out the fact we only have one attack now... but who knows? It's just a guess based on the amount of inspiration that seems to be taken from the old codex currently.
Also, if you can find that picture it'd be appreciated, I hadn't even heard of that leak till now.
Sharazad87 wrote: True grit might be ok, but it wont be treating bolters as pistols in close combat. Allowing you to fire your bolters while locked in CC? Ouch. that sounds really dangerous and a little "OP"
I think it was mentioned that Units from the new starter sets wouldnt have full rules. and the Index/codex rules would "trump" the starter set rules. However saying that it is possible that the "old" units (Units mentioned in the "death guard" section of the index) would get updated rules in the Codex. as from the plague marine leaked piccys there is a weapon option *NOT* in the chaos index
I will grab a link if i can remember it. but don't quote me on this till i can find ze proof :3
Well... it might actually balance out the fact we only have one attack now... but who knows? It's just a guess based on the amount of inspiration that seems to be taken from the old codex currently.
Also, if you can find that picture it'd be appreciated, I hadn't even heard of that leak till now.
The piccys is on the first page of this thread. The plague marines pictures in the spoiler tag. the top marine has a 2h looking weapon. Now its either a type of power maul/weapon. or a new weapon option as chaos champions cant take thunder hammers / scythes etc in the Chaos index weargear section.
Sharazad87 wrote: The piccys is on the first page of this thread. The plague marines pictures in the spoiler tag. the top marine has a 2h looking weapon. Now its either a type of power maul/weapon. or a new weapon option as chaos champions cant take thunder hammers / scythes etc in the Chaos index weargear section.
Oh I misunderstood, thought there was a leaked plague marine entry from the codex that showed additional weapon options. I did forget about the flail thing though.
Can the First Strike datasheet be used in a regular army? because it has a smaller minimum unit size, and a higher concentration of special weapons than a normal Plague Marine squad, I could see it having some utility (especially managing to pack a 7-man squad and a 3-man squad in a rhino - or 3 3-man squads and a character
We should get Bolt Pistols back, it's part of our background that Mortarion ordered the Death Guard ALL be trained with bolter, pistol and CCW to be ready for any situation, giving us dedicated combat units would undermine that
While it's still another distorted image, the more I see of the Plagueburst Crawler the more I'm liking it. I can see it looking really nice with a green paint job and covered in rust and corrosion.
I'm interested to see what those sponsons do. The cannon is going to be pretty strong, going by the size of its barrel, but those sponsons could be either close quarters defence or even anti-tank.
I'm also curious as to what the stubby, three-barrelled gun on the front is (if it's even a gun). Looks almost like the front of autocannon barrels sticking out, or maybe just a heavy stubber but has a heap of shots?
Looks like it will have some serious defence too, going by how chunky the armour plating is.
I'm excited for the real announcement when we actually get confirmation of what it does
So I have a few rumors of absurdly dubious quality I wanna share, from a friend who always offers these wonderfully questionable rumors when we meet up to play, with what basically amounts to "my uncle who works at Nintendo" style sourcing. But I'm sharing anyways because I'm excited about potential releases and he has occasionally been correct.
Spoiler:
Three variations on normal plague marines: The default version we know and love (and have already seen), a havoc variation (with some new weapons we haven't seen), and a melee variation (the leaked flail guy presumably). Basically giving us chosen, havoc and normal CSM variants of plague marines.
Terminators, but lacking the normal loadout options. Plague spitter as the default weapon???? Can deepstrike at 7" rather than the normal 9".
We are getting some sort of mounted unit. (Assuming true... the thing whose feet we saw?).
The plaguecrawler has a few variant loadouts, but this is the only unique vehicle.
The fetid drone is getting more loadout options when it gets a stand alone kit.
Typhus is getting a new model, along with morty, and a new demon prince model is coming at some point.
So yeah... I'm pretty sure a few of these are misunderstandings of existing leaks but who knows.
I think the many footed thing is either a new Beast or a new Nurgle monster of some sort. We have seen it in the art.
I would doubt mounted cavalry. Just doesn't seem Death Guard style.
I also doubt a new DP model. Especially as we have just seen that conversion.
All the rest is probably true though.
Either way I am excited though. Probably more so for new Deamon stuff than new mortal stuff.
But that's just me.
But great gods it feels like years since the new Nurgle stuff was rumoured/announced.
And it still aint out.
GW taking an eternity on this one.
dan2026 wrote: I think the many footed thing is either a new Beast or a new Nurgle monster of some sort. We have seen it in the art.
I would doubt mounted cavalry. Just doesn't seem Death Guard style.
I also doubt a new DP model. Especially as we have just seen that conversion.
All the rest is probably true though.
Either way I am excited though. Probably more so for new Deamon stuff than new mortal stuff.
But that's just me.
But great gods it feels like years since the new Nurgle stuff was rumoured/announced.
And it still aint out.
GW taking an eternity on this one.
I wouldn't count on any solid announcements from GW until at least after the Space Marine codex is out, as they'll want the focus to be on marines. But after then, we may even see some units come before the codex release, perhaps Morty and our proper Plague Marine kit around the same time as the CSM codex comes.
More likely though we won't be seeing model releases until our codex but I'm willing to bet we'll at least see some model reveals not long after the Space Marine codex is out. Daemon stuff will probably be a lot later though unfortunately with their own codex. Luckily for me, I'm a Death Guard player more than a Daemon player
Yeah the 3-4+ month post-video reveal delay in releasing all the Death Guard stuff is insane, especially considering the fact that they are one of the two main armies of the 8th release and that the Fate of Kronor is about to start. Really sucks to get this delay, which is probably to hype up (sigh) primaris uber marines as much as possible and to push all these little snapfit box kits.
Virules wrote: Yeah the 3-4+ month post-video reveal delay in releasing all the Death Guard stuff is insane, especially considering the fact that they are one of the two main armies of the 8th release and that the Fate of Kronor is about to start. Really sucks to get this delay, which is probably to hype up (sigh) primaris uber marines as much as possible and to push all these little snapfit box kits.
Give us a real release already!
I feel like it has been going on so long I am just loosing hype at this point.
Virules wrote: Yeah the 3-4+ month post-video reveal delay in releasing all the Death Guard stuff is insane, especially considering the fact that they are one of the two main armies of the 8th release and that the Fate of Kronor is about to start. Really sucks to get this delay, which is probably to hype up (sigh) primaris uber marines as much as possible and to push all these little snapfit box kits.
Give us a real release already!
I feel like it has been going on so long I am just loosing hype at this point.
Losing!
I can't even write loosing without the auto correct having a moan. Loose is to be less tight.
But yeah the reveal period is far too long for these guys, I have the feeling that daemons won't be making an appearance in the book though, but if they do I'm sold.
dan2026 wrote: I think the many footed thing is either a new Beast or a new Nurgle monster of some sort. We have seen it in the art.
I would doubt mounted cavalry. Just doesn't seem Death Guard style.
All the rest is probably true though..
The bit that struck me as odd was the terminator rules, but who knows for sure. Maybe I just am in denial because I really want my existing terminators to carry over.
I almost kinda believe the Calvary thing? I mean, maybe not a unit but an optional mount for an HQ might be true? It seems less silly than the existing palanquin at least.
But yeah, the wait is too long. On that we all agree.
dan2026 wrote: I think the many footed thing is either a new Beast or a new Nurgle monster of some sort. We have seen it in the art.
I would doubt mounted cavalry. Just doesn't seem Death Guard style.
All the rest is probably true though..
The bit that struck me as odd was the terminator rules, but who knows for sure. Maybe I just am in denial because I really want my existing terminators to carry over.
I almost kinda believe the Calvary thing? I mean, maybe not a unit but an optional mount for an HQ might be true? It seems less silly than the existing palanquin at least.
But yeah, the wait is too long. On that we all agree.
Could be the 40K-ified Maggoths people were speculating about? In that either those could be the cavalry, or that speculation could have prompted the rumour.
Perhaps CSM have terminators with the mark of Nurgle and regular wargear options, while codex Deathguard has a Nurgle terminator equivalent with more exotic weaponry
adamsouza wrote: Perhaps CSM have terminators with the mark of Nurgle and regular wargear options, while codex Deathguard has a Nurgle terminator equivalent with more exotic weaponry
CSM will have a Mark of Nurgle that non-Death Guard Nurgle Terminators will be able to take, but Death Guard will surely only be able to take the new Death Guard specific terminators, much like Thousand Sons with our SOT's.
Arachnofiend wrote: CSM will have a Mark of Nurgle that non-Death Guard Nurgle Terminators will be able to take, but Death Guard will surely only be able to take the new Death Guard specific terminators, much like Thousand Sons with our SOT's.
I wouldn't think so.
The Death Guard is made up of Plague Marines, but not all Plague Marines are from the Death Guard.
The Thousand Sons is made up of Thousand Sons Marines... and that's all they can be.
A Black Legionnaire that dedicates himself to Nurgle does become a Plague Marine.
A Black Legionnaire that dedicates himself to Tzeentch doesn't become a Rubric Marine.
All of the above is true, but does that mean Death Guard will be able to take [non-special-deathguard-terminators] in addition to [special-deathguard-terminators]? Right now you straight up CAN'T take Chaos Terminators who belong to the Death Guard legion.... which is extremely frustrating to an old school DG player. Can't wait for the real book and for terminators.
ph34r wrote: All of the above is true, but does that mean Death Guard will be able to take [non-special-deathguard-terminators] in addition to [special-deathguard-terminators]? Right now you straight up CAN'T take Chaos Terminators who belong to the Death Guard legion.... which is extremely frustrating to an old school DG player. Can't wait for the real book and for terminators.
My guess is that we'll have our Death Guard termies in our book and, if normal termies can have the mark of Nurgle, they'll be in the CSM book
ph34r wrote: All of the above is true, but does that mean Death Guard will be able to take [non-special-deathguard-terminators] in addition to [special-deathguard-terminators]? Right now you straight up CAN'T take Chaos Terminators who belong to the Death Guard legion.... which is extremely frustrating to an old school DG player. Can't wait for the real book and for terminators.
Well I'd say they shouldn't be able to take non-Cult Terminators, but they should still get regular weapon options.
ph34r wrote: All of the above is true, but does that mean Death Guard will be able to take [non-special-deathguard-terminators] in addition to [special-deathguard-terminators]? Right now you straight up CAN'T take Chaos Terminators who belong to the Death Guard legion.... which is extremely frustrating to an old school DG player. Can't wait for the real book and for terminators.
Well I'd say they shouldn't be able to take non-Cult Terminators, but they should still get regular weapon options.
Which seems unlikely given the index. We are going to have our unique loadout, whatever that may be.
Unless that guy who messaged about the forgeworld DG terminator conversion actually got somewhere with GW. The fact that forge world technically sold DG terminators for 40k might be enough for us to get them in legacy style. GW tends to be go both ways with the model=rules thing.
Warhams-77 wrote: With that chassis it screams for different main gun loadouts and/or conversions
This is more like wishlisting, but I think it would be awesome if the plague crawler tank has a second build option with the hull the other way round (the lower side at the front, like a sicaran). THat way they have a dual kit from which the variants look nothing alike at first glance
One hint at MAYBE getting a new Daemon Prince model is the Warp Bolter option listed in the index. With GWs new WYSIWYG style wargear options, this one stands out. Who has a Bolter armed Daemon Prince model? The Kai gun artifact from 3.5?
Nurgle Prince kit is the old metal one, and no wings. I grabbed one when they were brand new. Its great, but in desperate need of an update. The Prince Kit represents the 3 other Gods and Undivided Traitors evenly, but Nurgle requires conversions, and GW hasn't been too friendly about conversions or anything not assembled out of the box.
Nightlord1987 wrote: One hint at MAYBE getting a new Daemon Prince model is the Warp Bolter option listed in the index. With GWs new WYSIWYG style wargear options, this one stands out. Who has a Bolter armed Daemon Prince model? The Kai gun artifact from 3.5?
Nurgle Prince kit is the old metal one, and no wings. I grabbed one when they were brand new. Its great, but in desperate need of an update. The Prince Kit represents the 3 other Gods and Undivided Traitors evenly, but Nurgle requires conversions, and GW hasn't been too friendly about conversions or anything not assembled out of the box.
Just a thought.
The Nurgle prince (metal or finecast) has a warp bolter . It's the bug on his bracer on the non sword arm.
Adding wings is a snap if you have some spare drone wings.
ph34r wrote: All of the above is true, but does that mean Death Guard will be able to take [non-special-deathguard-terminators] in addition to [special-deathguard-terminators]? Right now you straight up CAN'T take Chaos Terminators who belong to the Death Guard legion.... which is extremely frustrating to an old school DG player. Can't wait for the real book and for terminators.
Well I'd say they shouldn't be able to take non-Cult Terminators, but they should still get regular weapon options.
Which seems unlikely given the index. We are going to have our unique loadout, whatever that may be.
Unless that guy who messaged about the forgeworld DG terminator conversion actually got somewhere with GW. The fact that forge world technically sold DG terminators for 40k might be enough for us to get them in legacy style. GW tends to be go both ways with the model=rules thing.
I'm hoping CSM can take the Mark of Nurgle on regular Termies to have normal weapon options for Nurgle style Termies. But I'm hoping Death Guard cult termies get weapon options for being either Deathshroud or Grave Wardens. Power Scythes are the thing I'd love to see on them.
We've already seen that they'll be getting at least some new options, as the little image we've seen so far of one is wielding a Plague Spitter.
the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
It'll probably be the same as the rubric terminators. They'll have the twin Bolter, a stock power weapon of some kind, and 3 different range upgrades to choose from.
I like how Rubric Terminators work right now, so I'm confident in the current rule writers to do the right thing.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
I'd rather them not write off large chunks of existing Death Guard players' armies for gimmick weapons.
We've had cult Terminators in 2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3.5 - during 5th and 6th they were Terminators with Mark of X, 7th we got them back in Traitor Legions. Guess what? They've always had the different weapon options such as various power weapons, combi-weapons and the like! It'd be a damn shame if people with Death Guard armies dating back several editions got screwed over for the sake of gimmick name Plague Weapons.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
I'd rather them not write off large chunks of existing Death Guard players' armies for gimmick weapons.
We've had cult Terminators in 2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3.5 - during 5th and 6th they were Terminators with Mark of X, 7th we got them back in Traitor Legions. Guess what? They've always had the different weapon options such as various power weapons, combi-weapons and the like! It'd be a damn shame if people with Death Guard armies dating back several editions got screwed over for the sake of gimmick name Plague Weapons.
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
I'd rather, as HMBC said earlier - the option for both exist. FW have sold a Death Guard Terminator kit for years. It was perhaps a bit sloppy of GW to forget that.
'But GW don't make rules for FW kits or units without models! '
Except for Assault Cannon Razorbacks it seems And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders.
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
I'd rather, as HMBC said earlier - the option for both exist. FW have sold a Death Guard Terminator kit for years. It was perhaps a bit sloppy of GW to forget that.
'But GW don't make rules for FW kits or units without models! '
Except for Assault Cannon Razorbacks it seems And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders.
assault cannon razor backs where more a product of the era of "we'll make rules for this even though we don't have a kit" and FW filling that hole. the terminus ultra LR also existed as a kit once IIRC
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
I'd rather, as HMBC said earlier - the option for both exist. FW have sold a Death Guard Terminator kit for years. It was perhaps a bit sloppy of GW to forget that.
'But GW don't make rules for FW kits or units without models! '
Except for Assault Cannon Razorbacks it seems And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders.
assault cannon razor backs where more a product of the era of "we'll make rules for this even though we don't have a kit" and FW filling that hole. the terminus ultra LR also existed as a kit once IIRC
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
I'd rather, as HMBC said earlier - the option for both exist. FW have sold a Death Guard Terminator kit for years. It was perhaps a bit sloppy of GW to forget that.
'But GW don't make rules for FW kits or units without models! '
Except for Assault Cannon Razorbacks it seems And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders.
assault cannon razor backs where more a product of the era of "we'll make rules for this even though we don't have a kit" and FW filling that hole. the terminus ultra LR also existed as a kit once IIRC
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
It wasn't an oversight. You can still give the original Termies the mark of Nurgle, and make renegade Nurgle worshiping Termies. The CSM codex coming soon might even give them a bonus like they could have for years.
But GW are making Death Guard their own faction with their own Terminators which will come with their own options. Same with the Vindicator; a gap that's being filled by the Plagueburst Crawler.
Times change thought and if a small number of hand swaps is the biggest of the problems that's a solid release.
Would you rather stick to having chaos terminators with +1 toughness or disgusting resilience etc. Like they've always had, in which case they don't need their own kit or book, or a new kit with bespoke options for a flavourful unit at the loss of combi weapons?
I'd rather, as HMBC said earlier - the option for both exist. FW have sold a Death Guard Terminator kit for years. It was perhaps a bit sloppy of GW to forget that.
'But GW don't make rules for FW kits or units without models! '
Except for Assault Cannon Razorbacks it seems And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders.
assault cannon razor backs where more a product of the era of "we'll make rules for this even though we don't have a kit" and FW filling that hole. the terminus ultra LR also existed as a kit once IIRC
Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
It wasn't an oversight. You can still give the original Termies the mark of Nurgle, and make renegade Nurgle worshiping Termies. The CSM codex coming soon might even give them a bonus like they could have for years.
But GW are making Death Guard their own faction with their own Terminators which will come with their own options. Same with the Vindicator; a gap that's being filled by the Plagueburst Crawler.
Pretty sure for a stopgap list to not include a unit as a stopgap unit until the Codex comes out is an oversight. As has been pointed out before - the Index list for Death Guard looks horrendous. It lierally looks like 'What was painted in our cabinet at the time'. It's pretty clear that Mat Hutson's Thousand Sons are the basis of the Thousand Sons list and that Wade Pryce's World Eaters are the basis of the World Eaters not having any restrictions.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
I'd rather them not write off large chunks of existing Death Guard players' armies for gimmick weapons.
We've had cult Terminators in 2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3.5 - during 5th and 6th they were Terminators with Mark of X, 7th we got them back in Traitor Legions. Guess what? They've always had the different weapon options such as various power weapons, combi-weapons and the like! It'd be a damn shame if people with Death Guard armies dating back several editions got screwed over for the sake of gimmick name Plague Weapons.
This is the thing people don't seem to understand. My Vectorum was built around traitor legions. Lots of bikes. 2 magnetized fiends (Mauler/Forge) painted in my DG colors, 10 Termies, 2 Heldrakes which are not easily strippable, lots of vanilla CSM amongts others. My entire Army was panted Deathguard. I literally lost access to 1/3ish of my Army if I want to make a DG list. The money and time to strip them is not practical. The cost to replace them as a different legion is not practical. It means I have plastic that will sit on the shelf and never be used again to include my 2 favorite CSM models the Maulerfiend and the Heldrake.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
I'd rather them not write off large chunks of existing Death Guard players' armies for gimmick weapons.
We've had cult Terminators in 2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3.5 - during 5th and 6th they were Terminators with Mark of X, 7th we got them back in Traitor Legions. Guess what? They've always had the different weapon options such as various power weapons, combi-weapons and the like! It'd be a damn shame if people with Death Guard armies dating back several editions got screwed over for the sake of gimmick name Plague Weapons.
This is the thing people don't seem to understand. My Vectorum was built around traitor legions. Lots of bikes. 2 magnetized fiends (Mauler/Forge) painted in my DG colors, 10 Termies, 2 Heldrakes which are not easily strippable, lots of vanilla CSM amongts others. My entire Army was panted Deathguard. I literally lost access to 1/3ish of my Army if I want to make a DG list. The money and time to strip them is not practical. The cost to replace them as a different legion is not practical. It means I have plastic that will sit on the shelf and never be used again to include my 2 favorite CSM models the Maulerfiend and the Heldrake.
But you can give them the Nurgle Keyword and have them as traitor legions who are devoted to Nurgle, which is the same thing, and you'll probably get a bonus for it in the CSM codex when it comes out, so your army still totally works
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
And as HBMC has said - why is everyone opposed to Cult Terminators having access to normal weapon options as well? Why are you all so set on them only having fixed layouts?
Do Deathwing have fixed layouts?
Do Wolf Guard Terminators have fixed layouts?
Because that is what Cult Terminators are the equivalent of.
If you really want Special Cult Unit X then take the Deathwing Approach.
The only reason Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because their units are intended to have fixed layouts across the board - something to do with basically being animated suits of armour. Even then my only issue with the Scarab Occult is the weapon choice was bizarre. They really should have gone with Power Axes rather than Swords. That would have been a lot friendlier to existing TS players.
BrianDavion wrote: the exact rumor is "Lacking the NORMAL options" this suggests to me that Plague Terminators will have options just differant ones. such as rather then a heavy flamer they'll be able to take a "Noxis bile thrower" etc
that said even if they have less options they'll proably be worth taking. keep in mind this is going to be cataphracti plate combined with disgustingly resiliant. they'll be plenty hard to kill.
Technically so do the scarab terminators, with their various heavy weapon options. I think most of us are assuming that those will be there, just less sure about melee options and base weapon options. No combi weapons would hurt fairly hard given we'd lack any deepstriking melta/plasma fun. No melee options would similarly be frustrating.
Surely you'd rather they made them unique and a valid interesting faction, rather than chaos marines with +1 toughness etc.
Well, that depends entirely. Unique and interesting is good generally, but can also mean inflexible and bad. Look at the number of units DG can currently field from the CSM index, vs what unique chapters can field from space marines. If our new options are also inflexible, the army will just be bad and fail to work. Terminators are of particular interest given how slow our army is and the fact it is likely to be our sole deepstriking unit.
Then we have the lore issue. There is nothing unfluffy about DG using terminators with normal configurations. They have more variations on them yes, but there has always been established lore saying we did have normal terminator variations. So invalidating large portions of existing models despite being perfectly fluffy and lore friendly isn't going to make existing players happy.
Then their is the traitor legion issue. More than a few of us recently bought units for DG. Seeing them be invalidated so quickly would be incredibly annoying. No, them being just nurgle marked members of other legions isn't acceptable either, many of these were bought and painted as DG, intended to be used as DG. I'll accept some losses for the sake of lore, like raptors, but there is a real limit on what is acceptable. Having a unit removed from your army mere months after you purchased it due to a brand new supplement encouraging or possibly requiring it is not going to go over well, and every unit that is incompatible just makes it worse. For something like terminators, who do fit lore, they really need to stay.
So yeah, unique is good, but we absolutely should have access to old configurations terminators as well. Similarly I hope we gain access to some troops that can use heavy weapons, if only so my havocs don't become old clutter.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
And as HBMC has said - why is everyone opposed to Cult Terminators having access to normal weapon options as well? Why are you all so set on them only having fixed layouts?
Do Deathwing have fixed layouts?
Do Wolf Guard Terminators have fixed layouts?
Because that is what Cult Terminators are the equivalent of.
If you really want Special Cult Unit X then take the Deathwing Approach.
The only reason Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because their units are intended to have fixed layouts across the board - something to do with basically being animated suits of armour. Even then my only issue with the Scarab Occult is the weapon choice was bizarre. They really should have gone with Power Axes rather than Swords. That would have been a lot friendlier to existing TS players.
I can't speak for now, but Wolf Guard Terminators have always been closer to Chaos Terminators in terms of loadouts. Lots of individuality.
It's a relatively recent thing for Deathwing Terminators to be more flexible.
I also wouldn't say that Cult Terminators are really equivalent to anything in particular from the Loyalist line-up. Wolf Guard and Deathwing have that individualization because there's no "Deathwing/Wolf Guard Assault Terminators"/"Deathwing/Wolf Guard Terminators" laid out. Remember that Deathwing Knights are, effectively, one book old.
That said--I don't see why Cult Terminators can't have a unique loadout to them. Cult stuff has always had something unique and interesting to them. Whether it's Inferno Boltguns, Plague Knives, Chainaxes, or Sonic weaponry there's always been something for those factions.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
And as HBMC has said - why is everyone opposed to Cult Terminators having access to normal weapon options as well? Why are you all so set on them only having fixed layouts?
Do Deathwing have fixed layouts?
Do Wolf Guard Terminators have fixed layouts?
Because that is what Cult Terminators are the equivalent of.
If you really want Special Cult Unit X then take the Deathwing Approach.
The only reason Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because their units are intended to have fixed layouts across the board - something to do with basically being animated suits of armour. Even then my only issue with the Scarab Occult is the weapon choice was bizarre. They really should have gone with Power Axes rather than Swords. That would have been a lot friendlier to existing TS players.
Many people (like myself) would argue a unit like Deathwing has no purpose existing, and is another pointless way to try and keep Dark and Blood Angels into separate Codices.
Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Which would be fine if DG have access to regular chaos terminators. But the worry is we will only have the fixed loadout version, as many view allied terminators form another legion as an unacceptable solution.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Which would be fine if DG have access to regular chaos terminators. But the worry is we will only have the fixed loadout version, as many view allied terminators form another legion as an unacceptable solution.
Do Thousand Sons get regular Terminators under the current index? If so, I understand the hatred.
In the meantime I've just been doing a generic CSM force. Mostly been waiting for the actual codex myself and until then I'll focus on our Loyalist Scum counterparts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Which would be fine if DG have access to regular chaos terminators. But the worry is we will only have the fixed loadout version, as many view allied terminators form another legion as an unacceptable solution.
Do Thousand Sons get regular Terminators under the current index? If so, I understand the hatred.
In the meantime I've just been doing a generic CSM force. Mostly been waiting for the actual codex myself and until then I'll focus on our Loyalist Scum counterparts.
No, but why would one CSM cult legion being hot garbage mean we want the other cult legions also being hot garbage? It's also annoying given it was previously established units of non rubric Tsons did exist, with units of psychic chosen and possessed being a thing both in older codices and in lore. Hopefully this might also be fixed with a full codex though.
As for why neither of these are acceptable... they not only violate lore and result in cruddy armies, they are an example of CSM once again getting the short in compered to loyalists, who lose significantly fewer models with their unique chapters and usually get proper compensation for it as well. So hopefully the person writing our codex has some sense, but who knows?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Which would be fine if DG have access to regular chaos terminators. But the worry is we will only have the fixed loadout version, as many view allied terminators form another legion as an unacceptable solution.
Do Thousand Sons get regular Terminators under the current index? If so, I understand the hatred.
In the meantime I've just been doing a generic CSM force. Mostly been waiting for the actual codex myself and until then I'll focus on our Loyalist Scum counterparts.
No, but why would one CSM cult legion being hot garbage mean we want the other cult legions also being hot garbage? It's also annoying given it was previously established units of non rubric Tsons did exist, with units of psychic chosen and possessed being a thing both in older codices and in lore. Hopefully this might also be fixed with a full codex though.
As for why neither of these are acceptable... they not only violate lore and result in cruddy armies, they are an example of CSM once again getting the short in compered to loyalists, who lose significantly fewer models with their unique chapters and usually get proper compensation for it as well. So hopefully the person writing our codex has some sense, but who knows?
We don't know what the codex holds for Thousand Sons, but at least their famous units are actually functioning for the first time. I like Rubric Marines and Rubric Terminators now. All we really need is more units available and more rules. If the SM codex is as good as I think it'll be, I think we'll be fine. We just need patience is all.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Plus there's not much wrong with a fixed loadout. Regular Chaos Terminators got you covered for flexible loadouts, and the fixed layouts for Cult Terminators is balanced by pretty good rules. I actually LIKE the current Rubric Terminators and how they function.
Which would be fine if DG have access to regular chaos terminators. But the worry is we will only have the fixed loadout version, as many view allied terminators form another legion as an unacceptable solution.
Do Thousand Sons get regular Terminators under the current index? If so, I understand the hatred.
Thousand Sons never had the ability to upgrade their Terminators - such was the downside of being Rubric. The pay off was increased resilience (either in weapon immunity, increased wounds or increased invuln saves). In that respect the Scarab Occult are fine. The main issue is the fact that they are stuck with mandatory power swords when the CSM range has exactly....TWO Chaos Terminator power sword arms - one of which being a long OOPRT Terminator arm and the other being on the opposite arm from a normal weapon - so to have expected Thousand Sons players to have modelled power swords was a bit fething rich.
Axes have always been more common and readily available and you could also argue that the weapon carried - a khopesh actually functioned more like an axe than a sword.
But here's the thing - Thousand Sons, by default are an army that really didn't upgrade units. The fluff supported a fixed loadout and the payoff was increased resilience and better firepower at mid-range.
Death Guard have no such restrictions. They are an army capable of upgrading units. Same with World Eaters, same with Emperor's Children.
So to expect these Legions to be happy with fixed loadout Terminators because the one Legion that a fixed loadout approach was always present with got that makes zero since.
I think it's a problem with GWs thought process when designing the 2 armies. I think when GW sat down and decided to try and make the Death Guard army they did it in such a way that they always intended them to be a stand alone faction in 40k. When they designed the Thousand Sons they offered you some limited choice to make the die hard fans happy, but ultimately their units were designed specifically to fill holes in the standard CSM roster. And this is unfortunate. There is no way that Thousand Sons will be competitive with what we've seen so far so unless they get more units or options when their book comes out they'll likely never be seen.
If DG are going to be released with the idea that they're going to be a competitive, stand alone faction in 40k they will need flexibility in how their units are able to be built and deployed. Otherwise they'll be a failure just like the Thousand Sons are shaping up to be currently without any other unannounced changes (there is 0 chance a revised psychic table is all the army needs to be competitive).
I'm not opposed to DG Terminators having the normal options, I'm just saying what GW is doing and how it isn't an oversight on their part but intentional.
You can give Terminators the mark of Nurgle. This means your Terminators can still be traitors who worship Nurgle. And in the CSM codex when it comes out, it'll probably give a bonus.
Death Guard are different though. They are an ancient legion from 30k. Like Thousand Sons, they work with traitors who worship the same god but, truely, they are a seperate army. So when people say they use their traitor army as DG, do you mean you're using them as Nurgle worshiping renegades? If so you can still do that and your army isn't invalidated.
If you want to use true DG though, they're bringing out awesome new Termie figures for us to use, with new options (going by the Plague Spitter in the one picture we've seen). I personally am excited for this. I can see why some people are frustrated, and if I'm wrong let me know, but it seems like your armies are still valid by giving them the mark of Nurgle Keyword and calling them traitor followers of Nurgle
If you want to use true DG though, they're bringing out awesome new Termie figures for us to use, with new options (going by the Plague Spitter in the one picture we've seen). I personally am excited for this. I can see why some people are frustrated, and if I'm wrong let me know, but it seems like your armies are still valid by giving them the mark of Nurgle Keyword and calling them traitor followers of Nurgle
I beg your pardon? Who are you to determine what is 'true' Death Guard or not? My army is Death Guard. It is painted as Death Guard. It is fielded as Death Guard. IT is the second such army - this particular one since 5th edition, its predecessor since 2nd edition.
Giving them the Nurgle keyword and fielding them as 'traitor followers'? Son, no. I don't think that's an acceptable compromise at all. You're telling me an army that has been visibly and thematically based around the Death Guard for damn near a decade is now suddenly no longer so for the case of some gimmick weapons? Did you even read what you put? Did you even read previous statements?
Do you even understand how people can be raising concerns that units which have sufficed and represented their Legion well, in some cases for close to 20 years are now suddenly being told 'HURR HURR, ACTUALLY' and expected to roll over and accept it happily?
'Awesome new Termie figures' - stop trying to sell them. We've seen one and in my personal opinion it looks like ass. Egghead with cheesy grin? Ew. No thank you. I'll take my grill helm and silent menace over GW's approach of TENTACLES AND FLESH EVERYWHERE.
If you want to use true DG though, they're bringing out awesome new Termie figures for us to use, with new options (going by the Plague Spitter in the one picture we've seen). I personally am excited for this. I can see why some people are frustrated, and if I'm wrong let me know, but it seems like your armies are still valid by giving them the mark of Nurgle Keyword and calling them traitor followers of Nurgle
I beg your pardon? Who are you to determine what is 'true' Death Guard or not? My army is Death Guard. It is painted as Death Guard. It is fielded as Death Guard. IT is the second such army - this particular one since 5th edition, its predecessor since 2nd edition.
Giving them the Nurgle keyword and fielding them as 'traitor followers'? Son, no. I don't think that's an acceptable compromise at all. You're telling me an army that has been visibly and thematically based around the Death Guard for damn near a decade is now suddenly no longer so for the case of some gimmick weapons? Did you even read what you put? Did you even read previous statements?
Do you even understand how people can be raising concerns that units which have sufficed and represented their Legion well, in some cases for close to 20 years are now suddenly being told 'HURR HURR, ACTUALLY' and expected to roll over and accept it happily?
'Awesome new Termie figures' - stop trying to sell them. We've seen one and in my personal opinion it looks like ass. Egghead with cheesy grin? Ew. No thank you. I'll take my grill helm and silent menace over GW's approach of TENTACLES AND FLESH EVERYWHERE.
Sorry man, I didn't meant to tell you what your army is. I don't want to cause arguments so you've made your case
I don't see a problem with Death Guard having normal marked terminators + Special DG terminators.
If us Dark Angels can, them too!
Just a more chaosy version of this and they can sell me 3 boxes!
Spoiler:
Waiting here for the "ur dhur you don't need more terminators" crow!
We don't need them. I need more new vespids. But it isn't like they are gonna say "Nah guys, you know what? Just don't sell this kit we have already done and boxed!
They shouldn't. If you're pat of the Thousand Sons, you're either a ghost in your armour or you're a Sorcerer. There's no room for "regular" units.
This is the major thing that separates Thousand Sons from the other 'Cult' units.
Death Guard = Plague Marines Plague Marines =/= Death Guard
Emperor's Children = Noise Marines Noise Marines =/= Emperor's Children
World Eaters = Berzerkers Berzerkers =/= World Eaters
Thousand Sons = Thousand Sons Marines Thousand Sons Marines = Thousand Sons
The giveaway is in the name.
Of course Death Guard should have access to a few different weapons, no different to how Noise Marines would. But that shouldn't restrict them from the regular weapons (unless its a doctrinal thing, like how it seems that Death Guard + Heavy Weapons = No thanks!). So Death Guard Terminators should have Blight Launchers or fancy contagion spreading weapons or whatever... and regular Combi-Weapons/HTH weapons.
Galas wrote: I don't see a problem with Death Guard having normal marked terminators + Special DG terminators. If us Dark Angels can, them too!
But Dark Angels don't have normal Terminators. They don't have Terminator and Terminator Assault Squads. They have their own unit, Deathwing Terminators, that combines all the options of the two, and then on top of that have extra-special ones. The comparison here would be like saying that Dark Angels should have Deathwing Terminators, and also have Terminator and Terminator Assault Squads on top of that. What would be the point?
What some of us are trying to get across here is that there shouldn't really be a distinction between "Nurgle Marked Terminator" and "Plague Terminator". The two should be one and the same. This is what the 3.5 Codex got right where the last Chaos Codex did not.
Chaos Space Marine* w/Mark of Nurgle should just = Plague Marine* Chaos Space Marine* w/Mark of Khorne should just = Khorne Berzerker. Chaos Space Marine* w/Mark of Slaanesh should just = Noise Marine*.
*Replace 'Marine' with 'Terminator' or 'Biker' or whatever you feel fits.
All three of these unit are not unique to the Death Guard, World Eaters and Emperor's Children, with Black Legion versions of these 'Cult Troops' being brought up all the time.
anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.
It'd be fine to have the new terminators not utilize regular weapons IF they were a separate unit AND regular terminators could be made Death Guard. Kind of like Deathwing Knights are a seperate unit that lacks a bunch of options normal terminators have.
For the players with a bunch of stuff that can't be Death Guard, at least you can Nurgle-mark it and still run your army as a 'Death Guard Army' even if everything doesn't actually have the Death Guard keyword. It still sucks and GW shouldn't force you to do this, but it is at least perfectly viable on the tabletop.
NinthMusketeer wrote: For the players with a bunch of stuff that can't be Death Guard, at least you can Nurgle-mark it and still run your army as a 'Death Guard Army' even if everything doesn't actually have the Death Guard keyword. It still sucks and GW shouldn't force you to do this, but it is at least perfectly viable on the tabletop.
My point is that there shouldn't be a distinction between the two.
"Plague Terminator" and "Terminator w/Mark of Nurgle" should be one and the same. "Death Guard" or not is just where they're from originally (the Death Guard Legion, or not the Death Guard Legion).
The new DG terminators may be given some kind of crazy off the wall name. Plus it's kind of implied by that leaked image they will have some unique weapons cause it looks like he's using a plaguespitter and an axe in the other hand. Plus the blurred one in the background looks like he has a plague censer or melee weapon of some kind. I think they will have more unique options besides what ordinary chaos terminators have access to. GW did say DG would be able to stand alone as their own army when their release is all said and done.
BrianDavion wrote: anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.
A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now
BrianDavion wrote: anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.
A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now
I honestly think it'd be a solid unit and not overly OP. you'd be looking at M 4" WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 a2 SV 2+ with a 4++ armor save disgustingly resiliant and then the plague reaper stats, it'd be a pretty close approximiation to loyalist marine Hammernators.
BrianDavion wrote: anyway let's adopt a wait and see approuch, for all we know deathguard terminators are gonna be in the "so awesome there'd be no reason to take normal termies" catagory. although personally I'm of the opinion whatb we'll likely see are a combi bolter and plague sword, that can be swapped for a plague reaper, with some heavy weapons options mixed in.
A unit of DG Termies with Plague Reapers would be amazing. This needs to be a thing now
I honestly think it'd be a solid unit and not overly OP. you'd be looking at M 4" WS3 BS3 S4 T5 W2 a2 SV 2+ with a 4++ armor save disgustingly resiliant and then the plague reaper stats, it'd be a pretty close approximiation to loyalist marine Hammernators.
Yeah it sounds awesome and would look badass. A Squad of them teleporting in with a Lord of Contagion would be an amazing flanking unit to take on a lot of things. That many attacks with all that dmg would still be a pretty big threat to vehicles, even if they're wounding on 5's. and they'd be gloriously survivable, but still beatable to high Str/dmg weapons
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Plague Terminator" and "Terminator w/Mark of Nurgle" should be one and the same. "Death Guard" or not is just where they're from originally (the Death Guard Legion, or not the Death Guard Legion).
I think I'd like there to be a difference between a DG vet and a Renegade that turned right before today's breakfast.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."
yet again we dunno what the new codex'll be like, take a chill pill and relax. wait until we see the actual codex before you judge eaither way. yeah death guard are getting a pretty massive change, thats pretty obvious. on the other hand haven't chaos players been saying for ages they wanted more stuff to match the IOM? looks like GW's giving you that
yet again we dunno what the new codex'll be like, take a chill pill and relax. wait until we see the actual codex before you judge eaither way. yeah death guard are getting a pretty massive change, thats pretty obvious. on the other hand haven't chaos players been saying for ages they wanted more stuff to match the IOM? looks like GW's giving you that
There's a significant difference though with IoM and Chaos.
For example - DA and SW Terminators can still be armed exactly the same as a normal Terminator squad or Terminator Assault squad. But they ALSO have bonus weapon options on top of that.
What has been hinted is that Death Guard Terminators will be getting a fixed weapon set that cannot be changed.
Sure, we want the same level of detail - but completely losing options and units is not getting the same level of detail - it's worse. And it's a slap in the face to people with existing armies.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Still doesn't justify the complete overlook concerning Death Guard Terminators.
Hell, if anything I'd happily see Death Guard having TWO Terminator units, a nod to their 30k status...much like you have Deathwing Knights and normal Deathwing...
8th could've come with all rulebooks literally smeared in and stuck together by raw sewage and some people would defend it.
Not sure who that's aimed at....
People who defend nonsense like Death Guard losing options when there's no real reason for it beyond "the intern writing it forgot they exist."
I suppose this is one of those agree-to-disagree moments, because I think they difference should be at unit level. I want an allied Death Guard detachment in a Black Legion force to be markedly different to a squad of Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle.
So, do you guys think they'll start revealing our stuff after the Space Marine codex hits? Or do you think we'll be waiting through the Grey Knight and Chaos codices, right up until our Codex's release date is announced?
There are three types of Chaos Space Marine in the original Legions. Firstly, there are four unique Legions which chose (or were chosen!) by a single god. Each of these become utterly unique and examplars of the warriors of their god. The Death Guard were cursed and saved by Nurgle in the warp. The Thousands sons were destroyed and reborn by Ahriman's Rubric. The World Eaters created psychopathic, super-lobotomised warriors dedicated to Khorne. Fulgrinm of the Emperor's children was corrupted by Slaanesh and dragged his Legion down into the cult of pleasure.
Secondly, there were the Legions that never dedicated themselves to one patron and worship them all equally. Some of these warriors may even choose a single god as patron, and bear his mark, but this does not make them Plague Marines or Berzerkers any more than it does any later Renegades that have turned to Chaos adopting the Mark of a God.
Lastly there is the Black Legion who, having once been led by Horus and by nefarious means since, have learned the secrets of these transformations from the original four Legions. So while as a Legion they are not dedicated to a single god over an other, individuals may choose to have the mark of a gods or, going one stage even further, undergo the lobotomisation/ blessing of Nurgle/ rubric/ cult of pleasure initiation to turn them fully into a Noise Marine or whatever. The 'cult' Marines come from either the Black Legion or one of the original Four Cult Legions, and nowhere else.
GAV
The lack of a Mark of Tzeentch without being a 'Rubric Marine' is an oversight in the current Codex and highlights what has, in my opinion, been some inconsistent misrepresentation of the cults. We've been doing quite a bit of thinking about this and looking at the original background (pre-first Codex Choas even). The line that anyone can be a bezerker is an error – they really can't. The Berzerkers were created by Angron during a particular time and blessed by Khorne.
This has been further exacerbated by later versions of the Codex blurring the lines between Marked Marines and Cult Marines, so that it is now unclear whether all Khorne-marked Marines are Berzerkers, for example.
On the other hand…
The 40K universe is intended to be large and inclusive. So while you may never see any official background detailing Berzerkers from anyone but the Black Legion and the World Eaters, anyone can create a story for their renegades that involves Fabius Bile, a retro-engineered World Eater, some rabbit kidneys, a ball of string and a transfiguration of some Astral Claws into Berzerkers so that you can include them in your army!
That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
Well that's how the rules are written too. A nurgle marine is very different from a Plague Marine. A Rubric Marine is very different than a Tzeentch Marine. The problem comes when GW decided to try and make stand alone factions centered around Plague Marines and Rubric Marines.
In CSM, the cult troops could be very rigid in their options because they were meant to fill a niche in the codex (in theory anyway, in practicality Rubrics have been worthless for over a decade) that was left open. It's an entirely different matter when you try to make that unit the backbone of an entire faction and then limit supporting units in that faction with even more rigid alternative units.
Short of a second Thousand Sons release, I'm not holding out much hope. DG will be a good indicator of how GW plans to make the cults stand on their own and players are already very concerned with what they see.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.
And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?
Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators.
Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing.
Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.
To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....
Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.
Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....
Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....
Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
And the folk with existing Death Guard armies can go whistle or suddenly find they're not longer collecting and playing the army they thought they were? Not to mention the entirely valid objection that having limited-loadout units in a narrowly focused minifaction makes collecting that faction boring(because every army will look very very similar and the choices, such as they are, will be no-brainers) and potentially very limiting in terms of gameplay and balance as well.
If GW want to add some new special options to Death Guard units to differentiate them from Marked CSM units, cool, great, I expect DG players would be thrilled. However if, as recent releases would suggest, they're going to do a release of a handful of very specific special snowflake units with convoluted names and limited options existing DG fans have every right to be annoyed. And nobody better try quibbling that those kinds of objections are just baseless "hating" - we're talking about a company that is so monumentally petty that despite selling all of the parts necessary to build, for example, a Deathwatch Chaplain with PF and jump pack, they specifically prevent that commonplace equipment selection in the Deathwatch rules because they don't sell a Chaplain model with that exact loadout and a removable shoulderpad for the DW Addon Pack pad to go on: if they come out with a ludicrously named DG pseudoHavok unit and it doesn't include traditional Havok weapons in the box, you know they won't permit the pseudoHavoks to take those options, and that's garbage.
Yeah I think DG should have normal chaos terminators + DG special terminators. The second ones can have the fixed loadout as much as GW wants as long as the first ones remain as flexible as ever.
the problem is that after 20 YEARS of a single codex, GW has suddenly decided they wanna make death guard a "space wolves" style alternate dex. it should be no suprise that's going to be a bit.... messy
H.B.M.C. wrote: They shouldn't. If you're pat of the Thousand Sons, you're either a ghost in your armour or you're a Sorcerer. There's no room for "regular" units.
In 10,000 years they have never recruited any new marines? Just curious...
H.B.M.C. wrote: They shouldn't. If you're pat of the Thousand Sons, you're either a ghost in your armour or you're a Sorcerer. There's no room for "regular" units.
In 10,000 years they have never recruited any new marines? Just curious...
T
I am afraid in this case, there is no "new marine" to be found.
As H.B.M.C. wrote, either a sorcerer,
or a ghost in an armour, who serves the above sorcerer.
There may be new "apprentices" from outside the legion itself who may
become sorcerers by themselves, but without a new Rubric, no new
marines per say I think...
His Master's Voice wrote: I suppose this is one of those agree-to-disagree moments, because I think they difference should be at unit level. I want an allied Death Guard detachment in a Black Legion force to be markedly different to a squad of Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle.
And they would be, because Death Guard would have the rules that make them Death Guard.
If Chosen are X, and the Mark of Nurgle is Y, then Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle would be X+Y. Death Guard would be Z, so a Death Guard Chosen Squad would be X+Y+Z.
So after a page or two complaining about it, could we put the speculations to a rest, please. This is a news & rumor thread and will bring you proper information once it is available
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.
And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?
Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators.
Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing.
Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.
To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....
Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.
Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....
Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....
Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?
That isn't actually an accurate analogy to what Death Guard would be going through if they lost access to normal terminator options in favor of the new guys. It would be like Dark Angels losing basic Deathwing squads entirely because they have Deathwing Knights, Blood Angels losing assault marines because they have death company, etc.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
2nd ed Thousand Sons were the most versatile Cult Troops. They were allowed 3 choices per squad from the Special/Heavy Weapons.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.
And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?
Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators.
Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing.
Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.
To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....
Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.
Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....
Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....
Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?
That isn't actually an accurate analogy to what Death Guard would be going through if they lost access to normal terminator options in favor of the new guys. It would be like Dark Angels losing basic Deathwing squads entirely because they have Deathwing Knights, Blood Angels losing assault marines because they have death company, etc.
Death guard haven't lost anything though, they didntnexist previously. They had substitute rules to represent a force similar to the legion using nurgle marked terminators.
The only true death guard units have been plague zombies, plague marines and typhus. Everything else is a generic unit with a Mark, not death guard.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers. A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion. To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.
And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?
Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators. Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing. Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.
To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....
Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.
Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....
Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....
Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?
That isn't actually an accurate analogy to what Death Guard would be going through if they lost access to normal terminator options in favor of the new guys. It would be like Dark Angels losing basic Deathwing squads entirely because they have Deathwing Knights, Blood Angels losing assault marines because they have death company, etc.
Yes. The DG termies will probably be an entirely different unit, like Death Wing knights, and may still have access to regular terminators. So calm down. Plus most people I've played with have no issue with counts-as models, so you could just take regular chaos terminators and ask your opponent if its ok. Or take another detachment of some DG splinter group, paint them as DG and roll with it.
Galas wrote: That quote of Gav is how I see it. Being a marine devoted to Nurgle dont makes you a Plague marine. You can be a Khorne marine renegade chapter without being all Berzerkers.
A Terminator devoted to Nurgle isnt a Death Guard elite plague terminator. Is the difference between following a religion and becoming a fanatical and totally devoted member of that religion.
To say that all Slaaneshi marked and blessed marines are Noisy ones isnt correct.
That's why I overall feel the new Death Guard Terminators should have a mildly specific loadout like the current Thousand Sons Terminators. You trade flexibility for a really fixed job and to be good at it (which, for Rubrics, is durable Anti Infantry plodding foward).
I'd like to see some options, but yeah I doubt they'll be as versitle as standard chaos termies. I'm just hoping they have a "Tatical build" and a "plague reaper" build.
Mostly, all the Cult Legions need to be able to get regular Terminators as well, but the fixed ones do make sense.
Fixed ones make zero sense unless they are a seperate and second unit altogether. The only reason the Thousand Sons have a fixed layout is because they're Rubrics! Rubrics sacrifice a lot of versatility for raw survivability - in 2nd ed is was immunity to strength weaponry, in 3.5 it was the extra wound, with the Scarab Occult it's the increased invuln during 7th ed and in 8th it's the bonus to ALL saves against low damage weapons.
To be quite frank - I'll only accept fixed Legion Terminators for DG, WE and EC if we see the exact same nerf happen to SW, BA and DA.
And for those of you who are going ' stop overreacting, you're getting equality' - can you imagine the veritable gakstorm that would happen if BA, SW and DA Terminators lost options they've had since 2nd ed?
Let's take away the standard power fist and stormbolter combo from Wolf Guard Terminators.
Let's remove Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields from Deathwing.
Let's take away standard power fist and stormbolter for Blood Angels.
To make it even more like what DG are potentially going to get shafted with....
Your Wolf Terminators now all have a fixed layout of Power swords and combi-frost guns! Oh, you have Terminators with other layouts? Well, you can always field them with a seperate Chapter using the Imperium keyword.
Your Deathwing now all have a fixed layout of Power Fists and Power Mauls. Oh? You don't have that modelled? You have other layouts? Well it's okay....
Your Blood Angels Terminators now have a fixed layout of Power Axes and single Lightning Claws. Oh? You have other layouts....well, you can always field them as....
Do you see how telling us 'we can always field them as Nurgle Marked Terminators' isn't quite the same thing? How getting fixed weapon layouts which we're likely to not even have modelled (thus making it impossible to even physrep existing units as the new unit for 99% of us) is not a positive but a ridiculous penalty?
That isn't actually an accurate analogy to what Death Guard would be going through if they lost access to normal terminator options in favor of the new guys. It would be like Dark Angels losing basic Deathwing squads entirely because they have Deathwing Knights, Blood Angels losing assault marines because they have death company, etc.
Death guard haven't lost anything though, they didntnexist previously. They had substitute rules to represent a force similar to the legion using nurgle marked terminators.
The only true death guard units have been plague zombies, plague marines and typhus. Everything else is a generic unit with a Mark, not death guard.
I'm sure that will come as something of a surprise to people who've been collecting Death Guard for over 20 years using the rules GW explicitly told them to use to collect Death Guard.
Anyone waiting for a fully fleshed out, multi pose multi options terminator kit will be sorely dissapointed.
Just like the death guard biker squads, havocs and just normal csm hoping to get ANY bonuses at all to their models.
I'm shocked rubrics had flamers, that was weird. And i dont think the lack of options had anything to do with fluff, it's just based on cheaper production.
Death guard haven't lost anything though, they didntnexist previously. They had substitute rules to represent a force similar to the legion using nurgle marked terminators.
The only true death guard units have been plague zombies, plague marines and typhus. Everything else is a generic unit with a Mark, not death guard.
Do I need to fish out the 3rd ed Index Astartes article and the 3.5 CSM Codex images again?
Do I need to remind you that back when Index Astartes first came out we were given a Death Guard list that told us which units to use and this continued into 3.5?
Do I need to remind you that this was around the same time that Black Templars and Salamanders gained their own identities? The same time as Imperial Fists and Iron Hands getting their own identites? Before Deathwatch was even a thing? Before the GK army even really existed as anything more than a single unit?
We've lost our Chosen/Veterans, Terminators and Havocs. We've lost the Terminators we've had since 2nd edition, who have been mentioned countlessly in the fluff and are referenced to on the opposite page to the crappy Index list.
'We've not lost anything'
Might I ask if you've lost your awareness of reality in general? What magical world do you live in where units we've been able to reliably field since 2nd edition, that were further reinforced in character in 3rd and 3.5 just didn't exist at all?
I'm sure that will come as something of a surprise to people who've been collecting Death Guard for over 20 years using the rules GW explicitly told them to use to collect Death Guard.
Especially when skippy there realises that Typhus came about with the 3.5 CSM Codex and Plague Zombies weren't a Death Guard 'thing' until our shoddy 6th ed Codex. Previously Plague Zombies were a Lost and the Damned thing way back in 3.5 that also existed in the Renegades and Heretics list.
Yet Cult Terminators have existed in 2nd edition, 3rd edition and 3.5 and returned rather profusely with Traitor Legions.
But it's ok - Plague Marine Terminators aren't Death Guard. Not like every DG background article and snippet in 5 editions worth of books didn't mention them extensively. Not like their 30k counterparts can't field a rather impressive amount of Terminator units - having 2 unique Terminator units compared to everyone else's 1 at most, in addition to standard Legion Terminators. - oh, and also having a Terminator heavy background in 30k fluff too.
I'm shocked rubrics had flamers, that was weird. And i dont think the lack of options had anything to do with fluff, it's just based on cheaper production.
Its for balance gameplay reasons, gives Tsons a useful option against hordes
Death guard haven't lost anything though, they didntnexist previously. They had substitute rules to represent a force similar to the legion using nurgle marked terminators.
The only true death guard units have been plague zombies, plague marines and typhus. Everything else is a generic unit with a Mark, not death guard.
Do I need to fish out the 3rd ed Index Astartes article and the 3.5 CSM Codex images again?
Do I need to remind you that back when Index Astartes first came out we were given a Death Guard list that told us which units to use and this continued into 3.5?
Do I need to remind you that this was around the same time that Black Templars and Salamanders gained their own identities? The same time as Imperial Fists and Iron Hands getting their own identites? Before Deathwatch was even a thing? Before the GK army even really existed as anything more than a single unit?
We've lost our Chosen/Veterans, Terminators and Havocs. We've lost the Terminators we've had since 2nd edition, who have been mentioned countlessly in the fluff and are referenced to on the opposite page to the crappy Index list.
'We've not lost anything'
Might I ask if you've lost your awareness of reality in general? What magical world do you live in where units we've been able to reliably field since 2nd edition, that were further reinforced in character in 3rd and 3.5 just didn't exist at all?
I'm sure that will come as something of a surprise to people who've been collecting Death Guard for over 20 years using the rules GW explicitly told them to use to collect Death Guard.
Especially when skippy there realises that Typhus came about with the 3.5 CSM Codex and Plague Zombies weren't a Death Guard 'thing' until our shoddy 6th ed Codex. Previously Plague Zombies were a Lost and the Damned thing way back in 3.5 that also existed in the Renegades and Heretics list.
Yet Cult Terminators have existed in 2nd edition, 3rd edition and 3.5 and returned rather profusely with Traitor Legions.
But it's ok - Plague Marine Terminators aren't Death Guard. Not like every DG background article and snippet in 5 editions worth of books didn't mention them extensively. Not like their 30k counterparts can't field a rather impressive amount of Terminator units - having 2 unique Terminator units compared to everyone else's 1 at most, in addition to standard Legion Terminators. - oh, and also having a Terminator heavy background in 30k fluff too.
They clearly never existed guys.
There are death guard terminators on the way, hence why they're not in the index list, that was obvious. More importantly plague marine terminators never existed, only terminators with the mark of nurgle.
But as someone who started in 3rd ed with the 3.5 book, yes those were to help you represent a legion forces within the limitations of the book. Fluff wise they have options lacking until the codex, but there have been as many plague marine havocs released/entries over the years as there have specific iron hands devastators.
You're currently in a state of rage over the fact you're going to get nice new unique entries, stuff that will make the other legion players feel bland, but you can't see beyond the possibility you might lose a combi bolter on a terminator.
Unless of course you have the book in hand, you have no way of knowing what units are or are not present in that codex. In which case I would question your grasp on the situation skippy.
Dudeface wrote: but there have been as many plague marine havocs released/entries over the years as there have specific iron hands devastators.
So, would you like to eat your words now or later?
Death Guard - 1. Iron Hands - 0.
You're currently in a state of rage over the fact you're going to get nice new unique entries, stuff that will make the other legion players feel bland, but you can't see beyond the possibility you might lose a combi bolter on a terminator.
I'm pretty certain getting lumped into fixed layouts doesn't make other Legions who have access to Chaos Terminaors (including World Eaters and Emperor's Children btw) feel bland at all. If anything it makes us feel bland. And it writes off significant chunks of people's existing armies TO SELL THE NEW SHINY. That's not a good thing by the way.
Oooh, a nice new tank. That might have two variants. I'm sure that makes up for the loss of Vindicators, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends and Heldrakes. 2 tanks for the price of 4. And they also look like gak. FANTASTIC.
Unless of course you have the book in hand, you have no way of knowing what units are or are not present in that codex. In which case I would question your grasp on the situation skippy.
You are trying to White Knight your very, very hardest, aren't you?
You're ignoring the mention of the Terminators being fixed layout - and seem to believe this is parity for Chaos armies. Yeah, cause, it's not as though multiple unit types (Deathwing, Deathwing Knights) or flexible armament with unique weapon options too Chapter/Legion specific Terminators (Wolf Guard) have ever existed, eh?
It's not as though Parity would be to put us in a similar situation to the Imperial Equivalents (i.e. a slightly restricted list with a number of additional specific units/characters) such as DA, BA or SW, hmm?
No, no, clearly Parity should be stripping our options away and forcing us into incredibly niche fixed layout units.
I'm gonna a leave it there, you clearly want all existing options plus all the new shinies and think that GW are making the wrong choices. Just accept some people are excited for change.
I would only advise to hold your anger in check regards what choices they have until you know what choices they have.
Dudeface wrote: I'm gonna a leave it there, you clearly want all existing options plus all the new shinies and think that GW are making the wrong choices. Just accept some people are excited for change.
I would only advise to hold your anger in check regards what choices they have until you know what choices they have.
Well.. no we all know we are losing things. I can't imagine any of us would expect to get raptors or bikers. Even if bikers were a staple of nurgle lists last edition, they just don't work with DG thematically. So no one is complaining about that in particular, even though I'm sure most of us own a biker lord and a unit of bikers.
People don't mind losing things.... when it makes sense. Losing normal configuration terminators, vindicators, and havocs/chosen are all questionable to varying degrees. That's screwing us and our lore over just to sell new models. That's not reasonable or acceptable for most of us.
Anyways, OT: Anyone heard any new rumblings? Even questionable stuff? I really want new rumors!
Dudeface wrote: I'm gonna a leave it there, you clearly want all existing options plus all the new shinies and think that GW are making the wrong choices. Just accept some people are excited for change.
I would only advise to hold your anger in check regards what choices they have until you know what choices they have.
OK, who had "When confronted by direct evidence contradicting one of their claims, poster withdraws from discussion without acknowledging fault and attempting last minute grab for moral high ground" in the Forum Argument Bingo?
I don't think any of us long term Death Guard players really asked for new stuff, nobody was clamouring for a grinning terminator with vaguely defined weapons or long range artillery on a new tank chassis (because really, who associates Death Guard with artillery? even if the Plaguecrawler IS a reinterpretation of the Contagion Plague Engine)
We just want our existing armies to not be invalidated. to not have to tear apart models we've constructed over several editions, to have a sense of continuity where options that have been consistently available to us for years and editions do not get summarily removed and replaced with units that we didn't need and didn't ask for.
Dudeface wrote: I'm gonna a leave it there, you clearly want all existing options plus all the new shinies and think that GW are making the wrong choices. Just accept some people are excited for change.
I would only advise to hold your anger in check regards what choices they have until you know what choices they have.
OK, who had "When confronted by direct evidence contradicting one of their claims, poster withdraws from discussion without acknowledging fault and attempting last minute grab for moral high ground" in the Forum Argument Bingo?
I don't think any of us long term Death Guard players really asked for new stuff, nobody was clamouring for a grinning terminator with vaguely defined weapons or long range artillery on a new tank chassis (because really, who associates Death Guard with artillery? even if the Plaguecrawler IS a reinterpretation of the Contagion Plague Engine)
We just want our existing armies to not be invalidated. to not have to tear apart models we've constructed over several editions, to have a sense of continuity where options that have been consistently available to us for years and editions do not get summarily removed and replaced with units that we didn't need and didn't ask for.
Not so much more that there's little point arguing in that environment.
In honesty the entire thread just reads like people wanted the options out of the chaos book with a cursory disgustingly resilient thrown on top as an army rule and mortarion - call it done.
The problem is if you do that then death guard aren't unique, you give them new stuff on top, what does heretic astartes/general chaos offer instead?
People whined for best part of 4 editions to get legions books, it's finally happening. I play world eaters and I can't wait. If my daemon engines get parked or I can't take generic marines alongside zerkers, then I'll take those from a book where I can.
It's really just people wanting to continue using the models they already have and have been using as Death Guard for some time. Asking not to have broad swathes of their army invalidated isn't an unreasonable request. Saying that the sky s falling and they can't field those models at all is overreacting (as previously mentioned they can run a Nurgle army with Death Guard in it as a imperfect but viable substitute), but wanting their Death Guard army to stay as such is not. If it were just a few cuts it would be one thing, yet the loss as it stands is much more than that.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It's really just people wanting to continue using the models they already have and have been using as Death Guard for some time. Asking not to have broad swathes of their army invalidated isn't an unreasonable request. Saying that the sky s falling and they can't field those models at all is overreacting (as previously mentioned they can run a Nurgle army with Death Guard in it as a imperfect but viable substitute), but wanting their Death Guard army to stay as such is not. If it were just a few cuts it would be one thing, yet the loss as it stands is much more than that.
Thank you for a reasonable response. I can understand that fear entirely its not a fun concept for people.
You're exactly right - it is possible to represent all existing units with the present and assumingly future rules by fudging death guard with chaos marines.
Again my earlier point was not that they don't deserve options necessarily, but that in every edition so far they've only ever had chaos space marines with the mark of nurgle, the only thing lost in a practical sense is the death guard keyword at present.
The problem is if you do that then death guard aren't unique, you give them new stuff on top, what does heretic astartes/general chaos offer instead?
What does Codex Space Marines offer that Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels don't?
This statement is a desperate attempt to justify huge cuts and you know it. You know it doesn't hold up. People still play Codex SM over the other chapters - so clearly the concern that having the Death Guard have like, 80% of the CSM list plus a few unique units of their own would make normal CSM useless is a false one.
Legion Traits will be the strong thing. Flexibility to take different cult units within the same detachment and get bonuses will be strong as well. It's not like normal CSM will be getting nothing - if anything they might be stronger due to their flexibility of choice.
And for the record - parts from those old metal Havocs are still being used today by GW in their studio army...and the newer stuff they've produced.
The converted Plague Marine squad on page 30 of the CSM Index uses them - the shoulderpads in particular. Mind you that entire squad is bizarre considering how GW seem to treat conversions as a sort of anathema these days....
Dudeface wrote: Not so much more that there's little point arguing in that environment.
You mean the environment where you make an assertion without anything to back it up, and then have it thrown in your face with actual evidence that contradicts your views?
You know you're right. There is little point in arguing in such an environment, because why would someone continue to argue when they've been so conclusively proven wrong.
The problem is if you do that then death guard aren't unique, you give them new stuff on top, what does heretic astartes/general chaos offer instead?
What does Codex Space Marines offer that Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels don't?
This statement is a desperate attempt to justify huge cuts and you know it. You know it doesn't hold up. People still play Codex SM over the other chapters - so clearly the concern that having the Death Guard have like, 80% of the CSM list plus a few unique units of their own would make normal CSM useless is a false one.
Okay, so just to be clear, Normal marines have a garbage load of options that none of the other codex marines have, so this is argument may actually do the opposite of what you want.
My blood angels do not get;
Land Speeder Storms, Honor Guard, Generic Chapter Masters(at least in the past), Bikes as troops regardless of chapter, A myriad of formations, 2 flyers, 3 tanks, centurions, 2 dreadnoughts, cataphracti terminators and captains, legion of the damned....
Seriously.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It's really just people wanting to continue using the models they already have and have been using as Death Guard for some time. Asking not to have broad swathes of their army invalidated isn't an unreasonable request. Saying that the sky s falling and they can't field those models at all is overreacting (as previously mentioned they can run a Nurgle army with Death Guard in it as a imperfect but viable substitute), but wanting their Death Guard army to stay as such is not. If it were just a few cuts it would be one thing, yet the loss as it stands is much more than that.
Thank you for a reasonable response. I can understand that fear entirely its not a fun concept for people.
You're exactly right - it is possible to represent all existing units with the present and assumingly future rules by fudging death guard with chaos marines.
Again my earlier point was not that they don't deserve options necessarily, but that in every edition so far they've only ever had chaos space marines with the mark of nurgle, the only thing lost in a practical sense is the death guard keyword at present.
I think right now we should try not to panic and adopt a wait and see approuch.
A lot of people being really out of line over toy soldiers in this thread.
Get a freaking grip, people.
Really excited about the new Death guard. Seeing as I played a fluffy Death Guard army for the last 4 editions, this affects me very little. And if the rumors that there are a unique plague marine heavy weapons squad are true, I've only potentially lost daemon engines and nothing else.
EDIT: And just saw the mod post.
Anyone think we will get some version of cloud of flies/ shrouded for our version of chapter tactics?
Anyone think we will get some version of cloud of flies/ shrouded for our version of chapter tactics?
This is exactly what I thought we'd get, until I saw the ravenguard rules. I figured -1 to hit at longer range fits perfectly for the cloud of flies. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they'll get cover now, regardless of them being in cover or not. I hope this isn't the case, though; Imperial fists would ignore our entire chapter tactic in that case.
What they could do is give death guard -1 to hit for units within 12" (or 18) including close combat. Reason being flies and other flying nurgly things harassing the attackers up close.
Anyone think we will get some version of cloud of flies/ shrouded for our version of chapter tactics?
This is exactly what I thought we'd get, until I saw the ravenguard rules. I figured -1 to hit at longer range fits perfectly for the cloud of flies. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they'll get cover now, regardless of them being in cover or not. I hope this isn't the case, though; Imperial fists would ignore our entire chapter tactic in that case.
What they could do is give death guard -1 to hit for units within 12" (or 18) including close combat. Reason being flies and other flying nurgly things harassing the attackers up close.
Really? That made me think it'd be more likely tbh. I don't think GW has an issue copy pasting similar CT for different armies. Consider every army is planned to have some version, from IG, to eldar, to admech. They will likely have repeats.
Anyone think we will get some version of cloud of flies/ shrouded for our version of chapter tactics?
This is exactly what I thought we'd get, until I saw the ravenguard rules. I figured -1 to hit at longer range fits perfectly for the cloud of flies. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they'll get cover now, regardless of them being in cover or not. I hope this isn't the case, though; Imperial fists would ignore our entire chapter tactic in that case.
What they could do is give death guard -1 to hit for units within 12" (or 18) including close combat. Reason being flies and other flying nurgly things harassing the attackers up close.
Really? That made me think it'd be more likely tbh. I don't think GW has an issue copy pasting similar CT for different armies. Consider every army is planned to have some version, from IG, to eldar, to admech. They will likely have repeats.
I'd honestly be surprised if the Space Marine CT don't end up being the archetypes
Anyone think we will get some version of cloud of flies/ shrouded for our version of chapter tactics?
This is exactly what I thought we'd get, until I saw the ravenguard rules. I figured -1 to hit at longer range fits perfectly for the cloud of flies. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they'll get cover now, regardless of them being in cover or not. I hope this isn't the case, though; Imperial fists would ignore our entire chapter tactic in that case.
What they could do is give death guard -1 to hit for units within 12" (or 18) including close combat. Reason being flies and other flying nurgly things harassing the attackers up close.
Really? That made me think it'd be more likely tbh. I don't think GW has an issue copy pasting similar CT for different armies. Consider every army is planned to have some version, from IG, to eldar, to admech. They will likely have repeats.
I'd honestly be surprised if the Space Marine CT don't end up being the archetypes
Seeing as I think the Raven Guard one is one of the best, I hope that they will get that one
I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
It's always worth considering that GW has a history of treating loyalists better than traitors.
But looking at the past, there is actually ample reason to believe disgustingly resilient is all Death Guard will get. Until the Traitor Legions book, Chaos was plagued by stuffing everything into a single army list, making legion rules something that only appeared in their unit entry when, say, Blood Angels had an army wide special rule section with their chapter tactic even though they had the book for themselves and vanilla Marines had an army wide special rules section for different chapters because the book covered more than just one faction. Marines were written to have their traits regardless of format. Chaos was not.
This could be the case again. I'm not saying it will be, but it's best to be cautious when it comes to GW writing rules for Chaos Marines. They'd still be true to their word if they had an army wide special rule page in the codex detailing what disgustingly resilient (the Death Guard trait) does and then have relevant data sheets just list disgustingly resilient and point to the special rules page for details.
The real issue here would be that disgustingly resilient is worked into Death Guard point cost whereas the Iron Hand one, to use a similar trait, may end up being a free bonus.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
... what having a +1 version of the Iron Hands chapter tactic isn't good eneugh?
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
... what having a +1 version of the Iron Hands chapter tactic isn't good eneugh?
Not if the iron hands' version is a free upgrade But yes, Disgustingly resillient is quite good. Unfortunately, it's also worked into the points cost of every unit that has it at the moment.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
It's always worth considering that GW has a history of treating loyalists better than traitors.
But looking at the past, there is actually ample reason to believe disgustingly resilient is all Death Guard will get. Until the Traitor Legions book, Chaos was plagued by stuffing everything into a single army list, making legion rules something that only appeared in their unit entry when, say, Blood Angels had an army wide special rule section with their chapter tactic even though they had the book for themselves and vanilla Marines had an army wide special rules section for different chapters because the book covered more than just one faction. Marines were written to have their traits regardless of format. Chaos was not.
This could be the case again. I'm not saying it will be, but it's best to be cautious when it comes to GW writing rules for Chaos Marines. They'd still be true to their word if they had an army wide special rule page in the codex detailing what disgustingly resilient (the Death Guard trait) does and then have relevant data sheets just list disgustingly resilient and point to the special rules page for details.
The real issue here would be that disgustingly resilient is worked into Death Guard point cost whereas the Iron Hand one, to use a similar trait, may end up being a free bonus.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
... what having a +1 version of the Iron Hands chapter tactic isn't good eneugh?
Not if the iron hands' version is a free upgrade But yes, Disgustingly resillient is quite good. Unfortunately, it's also worked into the points cost of every unit that has it at the moment.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Seeing the upgrades marines are getting in their Codex, I'm not sure why not
It's always worth considering that GW has a history of treating loyalists better than traitors.
But looking at the past, there is actually ample reason to believe disgustingly resilient is all Death Guard will get. Until the Traitor Legions book, Chaos was plagued by stuffing everything into a single army list, making legion rules something that only appeared in their unit entry when, say, Blood Angels had an army wide special rule section with their chapter tactic even though they had the book for themselves and vanilla Marines had an army wide special rules section for different chapters because the book covered more than just one faction. Marines were written to have their traits regardless of format. Chaos was not.
This could be the case again. I'm not saying it will be, but it's best to be cautious when it comes to GW writing rules for Chaos Marines. They'd still be true to their word if they had an army wide special rule page in the codex detailing what disgustingly resilient (the Death Guard trait) does and then have relevant data sheets just list disgustingly resilient and point to the special rules page for details.
The real issue here would be that disgustingly resilient is worked into Death Guard point cost whereas the Iron Hand one, to use a similar trait, may end up being a free bonus.
True
except are chapter tactics "Free" or are they baked into the cost and we simply didn't get them yet. plague marines are 8 points perman more then tac marines, this buys them several things, 1: 1 point of toughness, 2: Blight Grenades (which are a straight up upgrade over frags 3: re-rolls of 1 on wound rolls in close combat, 4: the ability to take 2 special weapons, in a squad even if less then 10 troopers. 5: Digustingly reiliant which is a good deal better then the Iron Hands chapter tactic.
remember Chapter Tactics apply to all Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts
So yes, DR is better than the iron hands tactic on base marines, Iron hands also get it on Centurions, Devastators, Dreadnoughts, Terminators (!), Primaris marines (with an extra wound!) - We get more things, but they get more units to use their thing on
Charax wrote: remember Chapter Tactics apply to all Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts
So yes, DR is better than the iron hands tactic on base marines, Iron hands also get it on Centurions, Devastators, Dreadnoughts, Terminators (!), Primaris marines (with an extra wound!) - We get more things, but they get more units to use their thing on
given that feotid blight drones have disgustingly resliant I think we can assume death guard will have it on their Hellbrutes (and proably all of their deamon engines)
While I'm elated to see GW finally focus on my DG homies, I'm a bit jaded by the fact that now every special snowflake newb is going to have my army (as opposed to the psychotic fascists that'll go Marines). Not that I'm against new players joining the game, I'm just against new players playing my army.
Still, I'm excited for what's coming and I'm already thinking of selling off my GW finecast/FW Plague Marines to replace them with these new models.
Ubl1k wrote:Maybe while papa is watching and the 7th month is coming to an end we could get at least the confirmation of our Nurgle primarch
You mean model spoilers? they already confirmed they are having him as a model with his teaser video and art work. Along with the current story he is the main focus for chaos.
zverofaust wrote:While I'm elated to see GW finally focus on my DG homies, I'm a bit jaded by the fact that now every special snowflake newb is going to have my army (as opposed to the psychotic fascists that'll go Marines). Not that I'm against new players joining the game, I'm just against new players playing my army.
Still, I'm excited for what's coming and I'm already thinking of selling off my GW finecast/FW Plague Marines to replace them with these new models.
And im willing to be many others had deathguard even before you, so wouldn't you be copying them and it wouldn't be, as you say it "your army"? 50$ or so for 1000 point army is a steal, so yea. Everyone has nurgle, everyone has loyalists.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc) The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Whilst I'm not expecting it, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Vectorum Traits as a thing in the DG book. The DI booklet descriptions on the Vectorums read as very similar to the minor differences in doctrine that the Codex chapters practice.
After all, as we can see, having an overall Faction rule(ATSKNF) doesn't preclude sub-Faction rules.
Okay, so just to be clear, Normal marines have a garbage load of options that none of the other codex marines have, so this is argument may actually do the opposite of what you want.
My blood angels do not get;
Land Speeder Storms, Honor Guard, Generic Chapter Masters(at least in the past), Bikes as troops regardless of chapter, A myriad of formations, 2 flyers, 3 tanks, centurions, 2 dreadnoughts, cataphracti terminators and captains, legion of the damned....
Seriously.
Formations? In 8th? Bikes as Troops? In 8th?
There's a reason I said 80% - in place of the missing units you get Death Company, Furioso Dreads, DC Dreads, Librarian Dreads, Sanguinary Guard, A myriad of characters, Terminator Ancients and Baal Predators. The few things you are missing does not compare to what Death Guard had culled from them wholesale - every single Daemon Engine outside the Defiler for one.
And people still play Blood Angels. People still play Codex Marines. You're statement there doesn't actually refute my original statement in any way, just verifies it. Cheers.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Whilst I'm not expecting it, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Vectorum Traits as a thing in the DG book. The DI booklet descriptions on the Vectorums read as very similar to the minor differences in doctrine that the Codex chapters practice.
After all, as we can see, having an overall Faction rule(ATSKNF) doesn't preclude sub-Faction rules.
Well, they did mention Deathwatch getting specific trait/bonuses....
So Sub-Factions are probably getting individual Warband/Cult/Fortress bonuses as well.
Ubl1k wrote: Maybe while papa is watching and the 7th month is coming to an end we could get at least the confirmation of our Nurgle primarch
All our reveals are slated for September, the true seventh month!
It's funny cause it's true
DarkStarSabre wrote: Well, they did mention Deathwatch getting specific trait/bonuses....
So Sub-Factions are probably getting individual Warband/Cult/Fortress bonuses as well.
Huh, so we might have specific DG factions getting different bonuses? That'd be interesting, forgeworld already has a couple units like that if I recall.
If Deathguard are released in September that would be oddly appropriate.
Probably will be too; SM are in end of July, GK will probably be in August, So Deathguard might either be end of August or beginning of September, with CSM coming quickly after.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Whilst I'm not expecting it, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Vectorum Traits as a thing in the DG book. The DI booklet descriptions on the Vectorums read as very similar to the minor differences in doctrine that the Codex chapters practice.
After all, as we can see, having an overall Faction rule(ATSKNF) doesn't preclude sub-Faction rules.
we could but if so I doubt it'll be anything like a -1 to hit at longer ranges, for death guard that'd be a bit much, now I could see stuff like no -1 when using a heavy weapon on the move.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's more likely then not the DG aren't actually getting "chapter tactics" per say, but instead it's gonna defact be disgustingly resliant on everything. (which means stuff like hellbrutes with it etc)
The people thinking they could ALSO get something like the RG tactics are living in a dream world, GW's not gonna give DG a -1 to hit them in addition to what is basicly a 5+ FNP
Whilst I'm not expecting it, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Vectorum Traits as a thing in the DG book. The DI booklet descriptions on the Vectorums read as very similar to the minor differences in doctrine that the Codex chapters practice.
After all, as we can see, having an overall Faction rule(ATSKNF) doesn't preclude sub-Faction rules.
we could but if so I doubt it'll be anything like a -1 to hit at longer ranges, for death guard that'd be a bit much, now I could see stuff like no -1 when using a heavy weapon on the move.
I think if we see that it might be on a specific unit rather than army-wide. I wouldn't write off an "Aura of Flies" styled ability as well, but it might be tied to the Daemons rather than the Death Guard themselves.
I will say though that I feel people are really discounting Disgusting Resilience and the "Nurgle's Gift" that Typhus and the Lord of Contagion grants to Death Guard units within 7".
Yes, it's 1 Mortal Wound to a unit within range of a Death Guard unit...but if you get enough units into that footprint, those Mortal Wounds add up quick.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: If Deathguard are released in September that would be oddly appropriate.
Probably will be too; SM are in end of July, GK will probably be in August, So Deathguard might either be end of August or beginning of September, with CSM coming quickly after.
According to their website, GK is next, followed by Chaos, then Death Guard.
Games Workshop wrote:
Codex: Space Marines will be swiftly followed by the Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines with Death Guard not far behind. (Yeah, you read that right – the sons of Mortarion are getting their own codex.)
I used to fish for the DGWL trait from traitor legions that did a similar aura for a biker lord. Worked a lot better than you'd have thought, since you wanted him in combat all the time anyway.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: If Deathguard are released in September that would be oddly appropriate.
Probably will be too; SM are in end of July, GK will probably be in August, So Deathguard might either be end of August or beginning of September, with CSM coming quickly after.
According to their website, GK is next, followed by Chaos, then Death Guard.
Games Workshop wrote:
Codex: Space Marines will be swiftly followed by the Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines with Death Guard not far behind. (Yeah, you read that right – the sons of Mortarion are getting their own codex.)
Oh its CSM then DG? Odd, I thought it was the other way around.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: If Deathguard are released in September that would be oddly appropriate.
Probably will be too; SM are in end of July, GK will probably be in August, So Deathguard might either be end of August or beginning of September, with CSM coming quickly after.
According to their website, GK is next, followed by Chaos, then Death Guard.
Games Workshop wrote:
Codex: Space Marines will be swiftly followed by the Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines with Death Guard not far behind. (Yeah, you read that right – the sons of Mortarion are getting their own codex.)
To be fair, that reads as the release schedule will be this:
Codex: Space Marines
goes to
Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines at the same time
goes to
Death Guard
They did say there will be Codex releases with no models accompanying them, and I expect CSM and GK to be such examples.
Kanluwen wrote: I will say though that I feel people are really discounting Disgusting Resilience and the "Nurgle's Gift" that Typhus and the Lord of Contagion grants to Death Guard units within 7".
Yes, it's 1 Mortal Wound to a unit within range of a Death Guard unit...but if you get enough units into that footprint, those Mortal Wounds add up quick.
it's currently not amazing because we don't have much in the way of close combat troops. Plague marines were always ranged special weapon guy who could kinda melee, and even that's been hit hard now. The zombies are well... zombies so it's kinda hard to get them positioned properly for it as well.
Messiah wrote: If they dont release new models for CSM basic troops, I am going to be very sad..
It's possible but I haven't even heard hints of this so far.
Grey Knight players proably feel differantly, as someone with a small GK force I can think of a few unit types I'd not mind seeing. not saying they'll GET ANYTHING (I'd be suprised if they did, or if they got anything I'd be something like "we're putting out a new plastic tech marine! GKs can use those!") but the GK army list is a little thin. I'd not mind seeing paladins seperated into their own unit, given the option to take storm sheilds and made a little more visually distinct, for example.
as for Chaos Marines, I'm gonna make a prediction here.
Chaos Marines will see Phase 1 of the Death guard release. this'll be standard plague marines, and maybe a nurgle chaos lord. this will be for the most part it. I figure this seems possiable as the death guard release from some rumors may be as big as the Primaris Marines, (consider, bare we're looking at 5 new kits, not including characters characters could see that expanding by another 5) GW could thus put out PLague marines with the CSM kit, as they're usable as elites in the standard CSM list, and then follow this up with the death guard specific stuff. this means the release schedule would proably be codex CSM at the start of the month, with Death Guard at the end, with a buncha death guard goodies sandwhiched in between.
Chaos Marines will see Phase 1 of the Death guard release. this'll be standard plague marines, and maybe a nurgle chaos lord. this will be for the most part it. I figure this seems possiable as the death guard release from some rumors may be as big as the Primaris Marines, (consider, bare we're looking at 5 new kits, not including characters characters could see that expanding by another 5) GW could thus put out PLague marines with the CSM kit, as they're usable as elites in the standard CSM list, and then follow this up with the death guard specific stuff. this means the release schedule would proably be codex CSM at the start of the month, with Death Guard at the end, with a buncha death guard goodies sandwhiched in between.
Why must you get me excited for such things!
To be fair, it does actually sound reasonable. Perhaps even the release of our glorious Primarch as well to be in time for the fate of Konor?
It would also fit with the rumours that DG are getting info on their release in August
dan2026 wrote: I just want to see a new Great Unclean One.
Surely this will be a priority as all the other Greater Daemons have been done recently, my only doubt about this is the other GD got resculpted as part of AOS releases if I remember rightly.
dan2026 wrote: I just want to see a new Great Unclean One.
Surely this will be a priority as all the other Greater Daemons have been done recently, my only doubt about this is the other GD got resculpted as part of AOS releases if I remember rightly.
The Bloodthirster and Verminlord were redone during WHFB End Times, not AoS.
dan2026 wrote: I just want to see a new Great Unclean One.
Surely this will be a priority as all the other Greater Daemons have been done recently, my only doubt about this is the other GD got resculpted as part of AOS releases if I remember rightly.
Nostromodamus wrote: Pretty sure those are the FW conversion kit for Plague Marines.
Indeed.
One of the problems right now on sourcing what is/isn't new Death Guard stuff is that there's material floating around of the sculptor's army and some frankly awesome conversions he did--which does include a Great Unclean One from Glottkin.
Nostromodamus wrote: Pretty sure those are the FW conversion kit for Plague Marines.
Indeed.
One of the problems right now on sourcing what is/isn't new Death Guard stuff is that there's material floating around of the sculptor's army and some frankly awesome conversions he did--which does include a Great Unclean One from Glottkin.
Those Plague Marines are ENTIRELY conversions.
Far left - FW Torso and shoulders, normal CSM arms.
Power Fist - Mk III running legs (FW), CSM torso with Plaguebearer belly, Assault Marine Power Fist, Blood Angel Death Company Chainsword, old metal Havoc shoulder pads, Mk III backpack, bare head looks to be a zombie head. Severed head on the chest is from the Zombie sprue.
Meltagun 1 - FW Torso and Shoulders, normal CSM arms.
Center Marine - Possessed Legs, CSM Torso, Plaguebearer belly, Possessed head, random spike from CSM sprue, CSM arms - with Plaguebearer champion hand holding heads. Metal DG Havoc shoulders.
Pointing Marine - SM Tactical Torso, legs and arms. Plaguebearer belly. Head looks to be filed down Typhus head with horn swapped for blade. Dark Vengeance Chosen backpack, Metal DG Havoc Shoulders.
Meltagun 2 - CSM torso, legs and head. Imperial SM arms - one holding grenade, one with Chaos Raptor meltagun. Dark Imperium Plague Marine backpack.
I'd not be surprised if the model in the back was a conversion. They certainly have no fear of showing conversions here.
Glotkin is actually a easy conversion to GUO. Seen a few tutorials online. Got some plasticard to carve out yourself a sword and greenstuff and your set. Make the tentacle arm a hand with sword, use the tentacle as a tail and fix some of the holes around his back as its not going to be used as a mounted throne thingy and bam
Chaos Marines will see Phase 1 of the Death guard release. this'll be standard plague marines, and maybe a nurgle chaos lord. this will be for the most part it. I figure this seems possiable as the death guard release from some rumors may be as big as the Primaris Marines, (consider, bare we're looking at 5 new kits, not including characters characters could see that expanding by another 5) GW could thus put out PLague marines with the CSM kit, as they're usable as elites in the standard CSM list, and then follow this up with the death guard specific stuff. this means the release schedule would proably be codex CSM at the start of the month, with Death Guard at the end, with a buncha death guard goodies sandwhiched in between.
Why must you get me excited for such things!
To be fair, it does actually sound reasonable. Perhaps even the release of our glorious Primarch as well to be in time for the fate of Konor?
It would also fit with the rumours that DG are getting info on their release in August
I'm just looking at GW's approuch over all and making some guesses from it based on what I'd do in their shoes, well GW has adopted a "no rules if there is no mini" stand point, releasing a mini a week early or late isn't gonna be a big killer, (early stuff they can put the rules in a box, see the Primaris captain, Libarian and reivers) late stuff isn't a big deal if it's just a week or two. Chapter house isn't going to be able to put together and release a mini based on some new hover tank in a codex in time to beat it's release the next week. (one that would also thus be designed and prepped by GW already and thus all the copyrighting would be handled)
that said if I was gonna make a guess Morty will eaither release with codex death guard, or the following week, he IS kinda the "death guard center piece"
Chaos Marines will see Phase 1 of the Death guard release. this'll be standard plague marines, and maybe a nurgle chaos lord. this will be for the most part it. I figure this seems possiable as the death guard release from some rumors may be as big as the Primaris Marines, (consider, bare we're looking at 5 new kits, not including characters characters could see that expanding by another 5) GW could thus put out PLague marines with the CSM kit, as they're usable as elites in the standard CSM list, and then follow this up with the death guard specific stuff. this means the release schedule would proably be codex CSM at the start of the month, with Death Guard at the end, with a buncha death guard goodies sandwhiched in between.
Why must you get me excited for such things!
To be fair, it does actually sound reasonable. Perhaps even the release of our glorious Primarch as well to be in time for the fate of Konor?
It would also fit with the rumours that DG are getting info on their release in August
I'm just looking at GW's approuch over all and making some guesses from it based on what I'd do in their shoes, well GW has adopted a "no rules if there is no mini" stand point, releasing a mini a week early or late isn't gonna be a big killer, (early stuff they can put the rules in a box, see the Primaris captain, Libarian and reivers) late stuff isn't a big deal if it's just a week or two. Chapter house isn't going to be able to put together and release a mini based on some new hover tank in a codex in time to beat it's release the next week. (one that would also thus be designed and prepped by GW already and thus all the copyrighting would be handled)
that said if I was gonna make a guess Morty will eaither release with codex death guard, or the following week, he IS kinda the "death guard center piece"
Yeah I doubt Mortarion will be released before the dex. The only thing that made me think it's a slight possibility is that Guilliman is sort of like the main leader of the Primaris, and he was released by himself, well before they were even announced. But I guess he's sort of the "Space Marine centre piece" in general.
I just want Mortarion so bad *weeps*
Chaos Marines will see Phase 1 of the Death guard release. this'll be standard plague marines, and maybe a nurgle chaos lord. this will be for the most part it. I figure this seems possiable as the death guard release from some rumors may be as big as the Primaris Marines, (consider, bare we're looking at 5 new kits, not including characters characters could see that expanding by another 5) GW could thus put out PLague marines with the CSM kit, as they're usable as elites in the standard CSM list, and then follow this up with the death guard specific stuff. this means the release schedule would proably be codex CSM at the start of the month, with Death Guard at the end, with a buncha death guard goodies sandwhiched in between.
Why must you get me excited for such things!
To be fair, it does actually sound reasonable. Perhaps even the release of our glorious Primarch as well to be in time for the fate of Konor?
It would also fit with the rumours that DG are getting info on their release in August
I'm just looking at GW's approuch over all and making some guesses from it based on what I'd do in their shoes, well GW has adopted a "no rules if there is no mini" stand point, releasing a mini a week early or late isn't gonna be a big killer, (early stuff they can put the rules in a box, see the Primaris captain, Libarian and reivers) late stuff isn't a big deal if it's just a week or two. Chapter house isn't going to be able to put together and release a mini based on some new hover tank in a codex in time to beat it's release the next week. (one that would also thus be designed and prepped by GW already and thus all the copyrighting would be handled)
that said if I was gonna make a guess Morty will eaither release with codex death guard, or the following week, he IS kinda the "death guard center piece"
Yeah I doubt Mortarion will be released before the dex. The only thing that made me think it's a slight possibility is that Guilliman is sort of like the main leader of the Primaris, and he was released by himself, well before they were even announced. But I guess he's sort of the "Space Marine centre piece" in general.
I just want Mortarion so bad *weeps*
Gulliman though was released as part of GS3 and thus not part of a codex release. so can't really compare it
Depends on how they split up nurgle. They could do say 2-3 weeks of 40K nurgle with the plague marines, pox walkers, terminators, tank, mortarion, and typhus (maybe another clampack or two) and then a week of AoS nurgle with Beasts and GUOeither at the start or end. And Poxwalkers multipart could be like tzangors, with one sprue of 40k style weapons and arms, and then a base hands and tentacles to add to AoS
dan2026 wrote: I just want to see a new Great Unclean One.
Surely this will be a priority as all the other Greater Daemons have been done recently, my only doubt about this is the other GD got resculpted as part of AOS releases if I remember rightly.
Keeper of Secrets, but hush! Don't tell anybody!
I completely forgot about Slannesh, just like GW did until recently...
dan2026 wrote: I just want to see a new Great Unclean One.
Surely this will be a priority as all the other Greater Daemons have been done recently, my only doubt about this is the other GD got resculpted as part of AOS releases if I remember rightly.
Keeper of Secrets, but hush! Don't tell anybody!
I completely forgot about Slannesh, just like GW did until recently...
Until that burning itch resurfaces, anyway. Then we all remember slannesh. There's always that one ex we remember less than fondly on the way to pick up the Valtrex scrip.
At least two weeks of Marines and Codex: GK, CSM and GHB II before Codex: Death Guard - even though several of these do not have to be exclusive at that Saturday. Based on the August WD teaser that issue will focus on SM.
My enthusiasm is starting to wane a little. Not having any showcases or teasers to feed it has started to leave the DG a bit dry. I've noticed that there's been pretty much no threads talking about DG for a while either so others must be feeling the same thing. I'm sure the announcement of the codex in a few months will stir things up again with some much needed model reveals though.
I mean, I knew there'd be nothing on them while the Marines were being released, as that's where they'd want the focus. But I didn't expect the Marine release to last so long
I have a theory of when they'll see a release. So far Primaris have had 3 units go on preorder per week. Aggressor/Reiver/Redemptor. Next is Apoth/Chap/Repulsor. I think next week will be 3 units from DI. Then the other three the week after which would finish off the Primaris line. Of DG follow immediately after, then our first release will probably be August 19.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I have a theory of when they'll see a release. So far Primaris have had 3 units go on preorder per week. Aggressor/Reiver/Redemptor. Next is Apoth/Chap/Repulsor. I think next week will be 3 units from DI. Then the other three the week after which would finish off the Primaris line. Of DG follow immediately after, then our first release will probably be August 19.
Grey Knights and Chaos are getting codex releases before the Death Guard, according to GW which will at least take up the first half of August. We're more likely going to see DG in September some time
aracersss wrote: so it is kinda implied DG will be out late aug / early sept right?
Teasers in august while the GK/CSM codices are released, followed by new models and a codex sometime in September is the best guess atm.
Tiberius501 wrote: My enthusiasm is starting to wane a little. Not having any showcases or teasers to feed it has started to leave the DG a bit dry. I've noticed that there's been pretty much no threads talking about DG for a while either so others must be feeling the same thing. I'm sure the announcement of the codex in a few months will stir things up again with some much needed model reveals though.
I mean, I knew there'd be nothing on them while the Marines were being released, as that's where they'd want the focus. But I didn't expect the Marine release to last so long
Agreed, doing this staggered release has been a bit... weird. We've got most of our new HQs/characters, except of course the primarch, and maybe half/a third of the new units depending if we count plague marines. We've then had a or so month break with nothing new (except easy build PM kit), and it'll likely be another month before anything else releases, meanwhile we aren't even getting teasers.
Still, one good thing to consider is the battle report that mentioned our new tank was, I believe, a leak from the august white dwarf, correct? So possibly we might see new teasers very soon.
At least two weeks of Marines and Codex: GK, CSM and GHB II before Codex: Death Guard - even though several of these do not have to be exclusive at that Saturday. Based on the August WD teaser that issue will focus on SM.
I suspect mid to late augest will be devoted to chaos. the GK 'dex will likely come out on the tail end of space marines, with chaos being mid augest, and the death guard release going through auigest into the beginning to sept.
Still, one good thing to consider is the battle report that mentioned our new tank was, I believe, a leak from the august white dwarf, correct? So possibly we might see new teasers very soon.
The new tank features in the battle report in the new 40K intro magazine "Getting Started With Warhammer 40 000", the one with the Primaris Marine attached.
Still, one good thing to consider is the battle report that mentioned our new tank was, I believe, a leak from the august white dwarf, correct? So possibly we might see new teasers very soon.
The new tank features in the battle report in the new 40K intro magazine "Getting Started With Warhammer 40 000", the one with the Primaris Marine attached.
So, with the Chaos Codex's pre-order date being leaked for the 12th of August, and the Grey Knights seemingly either at the same time or a week after, it seems even more likely to have a late August Death Guard release
Tiberius501 wrote: So, with the Chaos Codex's pre-order date being leaked for the 12th of August, and the Grey Knights seemingly either at the same time or a week after, it seems even more likely to have a late August Death Guard release
Tiberius501 wrote: So, with the Chaos Codex's pre-order date being leaked for the 12th of August, and the Grey Knights seemingly either at the same time or a week after, it seems even more likely to have a late August Death Guard release
I'm pumped!
*Nurglistic Screeching*
Cant wait for Ol' Morty!
I was actually wrong, The Chaos and Grey Knight codexes are both going up for pre-order on the 5th, so even sooner!
So, looking at the small army book we get for Death Guard in the DI set, it has a small list of Vectoriums. They all have a paragraph describing the way they prefer to fight and most seem like possible "Vectorium Tactics" and/or stratagems.
One of them is described as using gas before a battle and then marching in to kill the stragglers. Possible stratagem could be similar to Orbital Bombardment, like the Space Marines get?
Another is described as always secreting discharge/puss/nurgley grossness, causing a tough shell of disgusting to coat their armour, making them tougher than usual. Possible Vectorium Tactic for them?
The Tainted Sons are described as being particularly brutal and efficient in trench warfare. Possible close quarters Vectorium Tactic?
What do you guys think? Reckon we'll get Vectorium Tactics, like marines got chapter tactics and Choas get Legion tactics?
Wonderwolf wrote: So I wouldn't expect Death Guard to really get going until September and their "own" White Dwarf, Mortarion on the cover and all.
Maybe, though they're releasing both Chaos and Grey Knight codexes at the same time, while still releasing Primaris minis for the Marines, so it's not too much of a stretch to get DG in August. They seem pretty keen to chuck as much stuff out as quickly as possible
I hope the new DG codex gets rid of all the references to Vector. It's like some intern went to the transmissible disease wikipedia page and was like "vector is a cool word, let's pound it into the ground like Wolf for Space Wolves"
Kirasu wrote: I hope the new DG codex gets rid of all the references to Vector. It's like some intern went to the transmissible disease wikipedia page and was like "vector is a cool word, let's pound it into the ground like Wolf for Space Wolves"
It's vectorium or vectoriam or whatever. You'd better believe that once it's pseudo-latinized, they're not going to let it go again. Wolf!
3 layers of rules would be pretty awesome: Mark of Nurgle - Death Guard - Vector. I must say I don't find it that likely, though. Maybe there'll just be stratagems to represent the styles of these vectors.
I'm still expecting different kinds of plaguecasters, though. The DG booklet in the DI set mentioned 3 other kinds of sorcerers with specific designations. These where also not translated into German - which is otherwise the case only for actual unit names. The Deathshroud on the other hand, has been translated in the book, that's why I don't think we'll see them. Not the strongest arguments I know, just a thought.
Kirasu wrote: I hope the new DG codex gets rid of all the references to Vector. It's like some intern went to the transmissible disease wikipedia page and was like "vector is a cool word, let's pound it into the ground like Wolf for Space Wolves"
Calling Death Guard Warbands "Vector" is pretty cool. Maybe is because I'm from the spain so it has the "cool word" effect because is from other lenguage.
Kirasu wrote: I hope the new DG codex gets rid of all the references to Vector. It's like some intern went to the transmissible disease wikipedia page and was like "vector is a cool word, let's pound it into the ground like Wolf for Space Wolves"
Nothing will beat Wolf Wolfborn, of the Space Wolves, riding his giant wolf, with his wolf claws and his wolf tail talisman and his wolf tooth necklace, accompanied by wolves, wolf wolf wolf wolf.
Hey guys, so someone reviewing the Chaos codex in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W069dPLTXg0 shows off the Plague Marine page briefly, and I had a read through (If you want to check it out, he flicks to the page at about 15mins through the vid).
They get a HEAP of new weapon options, and they've gone down to 19pts each!
My favourite new weapon is the big flail thing, +2 Str, -2AP, 2dmg. And the dmg spills over! They also get D3 attacks with it, instead of just 1.
Also, every marine can replace their Boltguns with melee weapons, which is pretty nifty, and they're all Blight weapons and an equivalent power weapon.
Super excited about this stuff
You can make them out if you look closely. For anyone who can't be bothered, a summary
For ranged we have two options (as well as still newish blight launchers), which are a flamer and heavy flamer with an extra inch of range and rerolling wound rolls of 1. Which isn't too shabby.
For melee we have four new options, all with plague weapon reroll 1s thing. The great plague cleaver is a powerfist with d6 damage. The mace is a power maul with -1 to hit and 3 damage. The axe is just a power axe, except the plague weapon ability. The flail is the same as deathwing knights flail with only -2 AP and d3 attacks.
Also, you can get two attacks for double plague knives, knife and axe, or axe and mace. Which is nice, pushes them back to being a melee/ranged hybrid.
It's worth mentioning there is now a reason to run a unit of 7: the sarge can have his various loadouts (including plain plasma, without powerfist if desired), plus 2 special weapons, plus 2 axe and mace, plus 2 flail or cleaver. Oh, and an icon of despair if you leave someone with a boltgun or dual plague knives but it's still fairly worthless (though it has a 6" range now... wooo?).
Personally, between the new options and the price break (so they are costed correctly assuming plague knives aren't a point now or something) I think plague marines are now fairly usable. They seem to be pushing the melee/ranged hybrid angle.
1) Blight Launcher, which has had a slight change. It does D3 dmg, instead of 2. Good and bad I guess.
2) Boltgun, obviously.
3) Melta gun.
4) Plague Belcher, which is a flamer but with the Plague Weapon rule: S4, 1dmg.
5) Plague Spewer, which is a heavy flamer but with the Plague Weapon rule: S5, -1AP, 1dmg.
6) Plasma gun.
7) Plasma pistol.
8) Bubotic Axe (I'm pretty sure that's how it's spelt), which looks like a power axe, but with the Plague Weapon rule: +1S, -2AP, 1dmg. This thing is the one that any Plague Marine can swap their boltgun for.
9) Flail of Corruption, this thing seems beast to me. Two dudes can take this in a unit. +2S, -2AP, 2dmg, Plague Weapon rule, D3 attacks instead of 1 and dmg spills over. Yes plez.
10) Great Plague Cleaver (this thing has a glorious name). x2S, -3AP, D6dmg, Plague Weapon, -1 when making hit rolls. Seems like a pretty devastating anti-tank/character weapon, though with only one attack on a Plague Marine and the -1 to hit, I don't see this choice being taken very often.
11) Mace of Contagion: +2S, -1AP, 3dmg, Plague weapon and -1 to hit with. seems pretty cool.
12) Plague Knife, obviously.
13) Plaguesword, obviously.
14) Blight and Krak grenades, obviously.
Their options:
- Champion may replace their Plague knife with a Plaguesword
- Champion may replace their boltgun with a bolt pistol, plasma pistol or plasma gun (no more having to take a plasma gun AND fist!)
- Champion may take a powerfist
- Up to two Plague Marines may replace their boltgun with a Plague belcher, Plague spewer, Melta gun, plasma gun or Blight Launcher
- Any Plague Marine may replace their boltgun with either a Bubonic Axe or a second Plague Knife
- Up to two Plague Marines may each replace their boltgun with a Mace of Contagion and a Bubonic Axe
- Up to two Plague Marines may each replace their boltgun with a Great Plague Cleaver or a Flail of Corruption
- One Plague Marines armed with a boltgun or two Plague knives can take an Icon of Dispare (oddly specific)
And a new special rule, called Vectors of Death and Disease, allows dudes with two Plague knives, a knife and Bubonic Axe, or a Mace of Contagion and Bubonic Axe, have an attack value of 2 rather than 1.
So a bucket load of melee weapons, interestingly. And Plague Marines now being only 19pts per model means a few extra upgrades can probably be chucked on with no additional cost to what we're used to now, which is grand.
Unfortunately he doesn't look at the points page properly, so I couldn't make out the weapons points costs.
Interesting that they've gone hard melee for PMs, wonder if they'll keep those options the same for the Death Guard
I'm curious if the sarge will get more options, he lost all access to combi weapons (or anything but plasma gun/pistol) for ranged, and his melee weapons are now plague knife/sword and power fist. It'd be nice if he had access to the new blight/plague weapons in the DG codex.
I don't recall a plasma fetish from Death Guard. Meltas and flamers, or rather pisto versions like inferno guns and hand flamers as well as anything with the name in it would make sense for sarges, IMO. We can now safely guess what weapons will be in the kit, though.
A mace and axe combi sounds like a weird look, but we'll see. I'm ready for more gribbly Nurglers.
I wouldn't say it's necessary a "fetish", but Mortarion's Lantern pistol was essentially the relicest relic plasma pistol imaginable from what I can recall.
Tiberius501 wrote: Was just randomly scrolling through the Chaos units on the GW website and noticed that Typhus is now, "no longer available."
He's still available in the UK, which is the most important IMHO. Its the plastic Eldar Farseer who seems to be 'Sold Out - No Longer Available' almost worldwide.
Binabik15 wrote: I don't recall a plasma fetish from Death Guard. Meltas and flamers, or rather pisto versions like inferno guns and hand flamers as well as anything with the name in it would make sense for sarges, IMO. We can now safely guess what weapons will be in the kit, though.
A mace and axe combi sounds like a weird look, but we'll see. I'm ready for more gribbly Nurglers.
I find the plasma on the sarge odd, but assume it's less to do with fluff and more to do with it being a common weapon to equip DG with the past few editions. Still, I'd love to be able to run three blight launchers instead.
Also, DG no longer use flamers apparently, having moved entirely over to plague spewing weapons to replace them.
Yeah I'm all for all this Plague stuff. The only thing I'm a little iffy on is plasma and fist being the only things you can put on the champion. I'd of liked to give him a Blight Launcher or one of those cleavers
I hope those CC-weapons are very cheap as I'm not really sold on using them on one-attack models. I also think from the way the entry is written, we might draw a conclusion on how the new PM set is laid out: 2 of each special weapon, maybe axes for everyone, a whole lot of knives (one also for a right arm).
- Champion may replace their Plague knife with a Plaguesword
- Champion may replace their boltgun with a bolt pistol, plasma pistol or plasma gun (no more having to take a plasma gun AND fist!)
- Champion may take a powerfist
Pretty livid I just converted a champion with a combiplasma...
'
And Terminus Ultra Land Raiders. 
Flail of Corruption <3 I'm so pumped for this Codex release. I don't remember the last time I looked forward to a release this much.
